Fiona Hill: Vladimir Putin and Donald Trump | Lex Fridman Podcast #335

we've got to have strategic empathy we've got to have strategic empathy about Putin as well we've got to about Putin as well we've got to about Putin as well we've got to understand how the guy thinks and why he understand how the guy thinks and why he understand how the guy thinks and why he thinks like he does thinks like he does thinks like he does you know he he has got his own context you know he he has got his own context you know he he has got his own context in his own frame and his own rationale in his own frame and his own rationale in his own frame and his own rationale and he is rational he is a rational and he is rational he is a rational and he is rational he is a rational actor in his own context we've got to actor in his own context we've got to actor in his own context we've got to understand that we've got to understand understand that we've got to understand understand that we've got to understand that he would take offense at something that he would take offense at something that he would take offense at something and he would take action over something and he would take action over something and he would take action over something it doesn't mean to say that you know we it doesn't mean to say that you know we it doesn't mean to say that you know we are necessary to blame by taking actions are necessary to blame by taking actions are necessary to blame by taking actions but we are to blame and we don't but we are to blame and we don't but we are to blame and we don't understand the consequences of things understand the consequences of things understand the consequences of things that we do and act accordingly or you that we do and act accordingly or you that we do and act accordingly or you know take preventative action or know take preventative action or know take preventative action or recognize that something might happen as recognize that something might happen as recognize that something might happen as a result of something what is the a result of something what is the a result of something what is the probability that Russia attacks Ukraine probability that Russia attacks Ukraine probability that Russia attacks Ukraine with the tactical nuclear weapon the following is a conversation with the following is a conversation with Fiona Hill a presidential advisor and Fiona Hill a presidential advisor and Fiona Hill a presidential advisor and foreign policy expert specializing in foreign policy expert specializing in foreign policy expert specializing in Russia she has served the bush Obama and Russia she has served the bush Obama and Russia she has served the bush Obama and Trump administrations including being a Trump administrations including being a Trump administrations including being a top advisor on Russia to Donald Trump top advisor on Russia to Donald Trump top advisor on Russia to Donald Trump she has made it to the White House from she has made it to the White House from she has made it to the White House from humble beginnings in the north of humble beginnings in the north of humble beginnings in the north of England a story she tells in her book England a story she tells in her book England a story she tells in her book there's nothing for you here there's nothing for you here there's nothing for you here this is the Lex Friedman podcast to this is the Lex Friedman podcast to this is the Lex Friedman podcast to support it please check out our sponsors support it please check out our sponsors support it please check out our sponsors in the description and now dear friends in the description and now dear friends in the description and now dear friends here's Fiona Hill here's Fiona Hill here's Fiona Hill you came from Humble beginning in a coal you came from Humble beginning in a coal you came from Humble beginning in a coal mining town in Northeast England so what mining town in Northeast England so what mining town in Northeast England so what were some formative moments in your were some formative moments in your were some formative moments in your young life that made you the woman you young life that made you the woman you young life that made you the woman you are today are today are today I was born in 1965 and it was the period

I was born in 1965 and it was the period I was born in 1965 and it was the period where the whole coal sector in Britain where the whole coal sector in Britain where the whole coal sector in Britain was in Decline already was in Decline already was in Decline already and you know basically my father by the and you know basically my father by the and you know basically my father by the time I came along had lost his job time I came along had lost his job time I came along had lost his job multiple times every coal mine he worked multiple times every coal mine he worked multiple times every coal mine he worked in was closing down he was looking in was closing down he was looking in was closing down he was looking constantly further work and he had no constantly further work and he had no constantly further work and he had no qualifications because at age 14 he'd qualifications because at age 14 he'd qualifications because at age 14 he'd gone down the mines his father had gone gone down the mines his father had gone gone down the mines his father had gone down the mines at 13 his great down the mines at 13 his great down the mines at 13 his great grandfather you know around the same grandfather you know around the same grandfather you know around the same kind of age I mean you had a lot of kind of age I mean you had a lot of kind of age I mean you had a lot of people you know at different points people you know at different points people you know at different points going down coal mines at 12 13 you know going down coal mines at 12 13 you know going down coal mines at 12 13 you know 14 they didn't get educated beyond that 14 they didn't get educated beyond that 14 they didn't get educated beyond that period because the expectation was pay period because the expectation was pay period because the expectation was pay you're going to go down the mine like you're going to go down the mine like you're going to go down the mine like everybody else in your family everybody else in your family everybody else in your family although they didn't really have any although they didn't really have any although they didn't really have any other qualifications other qualifications other qualifications to you know basically find another job to you know basically find another job to you know basically find another job Beyond something in manual labor so I Beyond something in manual labor so I Beyond something in manual labor so I worked in a steel works that didn't work worked in a steel works that didn't work worked in a steel works that didn't work out a brickworks that closed down and out a brickworks that closed down and out a brickworks that closed down and then he went to work in the local then he went to work in the local then he went to work in the local hospital part of the National Health hospital part of the National Health hospital part of the National Health Service in the United Kingdom as a Service in the United Kingdom as a Service in the United Kingdom as a porter an orderly supposedly somebody's porter an orderly supposedly somebody's porter an orderly supposedly somebody's just pushing people around there was no just pushing people around there was no just pushing people around there was no opportunity to retrain so the big issue opportunity to retrain so the big issue opportunity to retrain so the big issue in my family was education you've got to in my family was education you've got to in my family was education you've got to have one you know you've got to have have one you know you've got to have have one you know you've got to have some qualifications the world is some qualifications the world is some qualifications the world is changing it's changing really quickly changing it's changing really quickly changing it's changing really quickly and for you to kind of keep up with it and for you to kind of keep up with it and for you to kind of keep up with it you're going to have to you're going to have to you're going to have to get educated and find a way out of this get educated and find a way out of this get educated and find a way out of this I'm very early on my father had I'm very early on my father had I'm very early on my father had basically said to me there's nothing for basically said to me there's nothing for basically said to me there's nothing for you here you here you here you're going to have to if you want to you're going to have to if you want to you're going to have to if you want to get ahead and he didn't have any kind of get ahead and he didn't have any kind of get ahead and he didn't have any kind of idea that as a girl I wouldn't I mean idea that as a girl I wouldn't I mean idea that as a girl I wouldn't I mean actually in many respects I think I've actually in many respects I think I've actually in many respects I think I've benefited from being a girl rather than benefited from being a girl rather than benefited from being a girl rather than a boy there was no expectation that I

a boy there was no expectation that I a boy there was no expectation that I would go into industry uh there was you would go into industry uh there was you would go into industry uh there was you know some kind of idea that maybe I you know some kind of idea that maybe I you know some kind of idea that maybe I you know if I got qualifications I could be know if I got qualifications I could be know if I got qualifications I could be a nurse my mother was a midwife and so a nurse my mother was a midwife and so a nurse my mother was a midwife and so she'd at age 16 left school and gone to she'd at age 16 left school and gone to she'd at age 16 left school and gone to train as a nurse and then as a midwife I train as a nurse and then as a midwife I train as a nurse and then as a midwife I had other relatives who'd gone to teach had other relatives who'd gone to teach had other relatives who'd gone to teach you know in local schools and so there you know in local schools and so there you know in local schools and so there was an idea that you know women could was an idea that you know women could was an idea that you know women could get educated and there was a kind of a get educated and there was a kind of a get educated and there was a kind of a range of things that you could do but range of things that you could do but range of things that you could do but the expectation then was the expectation then was the expectation then was go out there do something with your life go out there do something with your life go out there do something with your life but also a sense that you'd probably but also a sense that you'd probably but also a sense that you'd probably have to leave so all of that was have to leave so all of that was have to leave so all of that was circling around me particularly in my circling around me particularly in my circling around me particularly in my teenage years as I mean I was trying to teenage years as I mean I was trying to teenage years as I mean I was trying to find my way through life and looking find my way through life and looking find my way through life and looking forward forward forward first of all what does that even look first of all what does that even look first of all what does that even look like uh getting educated given the like uh getting educated given the like uh getting educated given the context of that place you don't know context of that place you don't know context of that place you don't know there's a whole world of mystery out there's a whole world of mystery out there's a whole world of mystery out there so how do you figure out what to there so how do you figure out what to there so how do you figure out what to actually do out there what was there actually do out there what was there actually do out there what was there moments formative moments either moments formative moments either moments formative moments either challenging or just inspiring where you challenging or just inspiring where you challenging or just inspiring where you wondered about what you want to be wondered about what you want to be wondered about what you want to be where you want to go yeah I don't want where you want to go yeah I don't want where you want to go yeah I don't want me to a number of things I mean I think me to a number of things I mean I think me to a number of things I mean I think like a lot of kids you know you you talk like a lot of kids you know you you talk like a lot of kids you know you you talk to people and particularly from Blue to people and particularly from Blue to people and particularly from Blue Collar background you said what did you Collar background you said what did you Collar background you said what did you want to do boys might say I wanted to be want to do boys might say I wanted to be want to do boys might say I wanted to be a fireman you know or you got you know a fireman you know or you got you know a fireman you know or you got you know kind of I at one point is a little girl kind of I at one point is a little girl kind of I at one point is a little girl I wanted to be a nurse and I had little I wanted to be a nurse and I had little I wanted to be a nurse and I had little nurses uniform like my mother I didn't nurses uniform like my mother I didn't nurses uniform like my mother I didn't really know what that meant but you know really know what that meant but you know really know what that meant but you know I used to go around pretending to be a I used to go around pretending to be a I used to go around pretending to be a nurse I even had a little magazine nurse I even had a little magazine nurse I even had a little magazine called nurse Nancy and I used to read called nurse Nancy and I used to read called nurse Nancy and I used to read this and you know kind of that was one this and you know kind of that was one this and you know kind of that was one of the formative ideas we also it was a

of the formative ideas we also it was a of the formative ideas we also it was a rural area semi-rural area and you know rural area semi-rural area and you know rural area semi-rural area and you know I'd be out in the the fields all the I'd be out in the the fields all the I'd be out in the the fields all the time and I'd watch Farmers you know with time and I'd watch Farmers you know with time and I'd watch Farmers you know with their animals and I'd see vets coming their animals and I'd see vets coming their animals and I'd see vets coming along and you know watching people deal along and you know watching people deal along and you know watching people deal with a livestock and there was a kind of with a livestock and there was a kind of with a livestock and there was a kind of a famous story at the time about a vet a famous story at the time about a vet a famous story at the time about a vet called James Harriet um it became here called James Harriet um it became here called James Harriet um it became here in the United States as well and was a in the United States as well and was a in the United States as well and was a lot of TV mini series he'd written a lot of TV mini series he'd written a lot of TV mini series he'd written a book and he was the vet for my uh one of book and he was the vet for my uh one of book and he was the vet for my uh one of my uh great aunt's dogs and people were my uh great aunt's dogs and people were my uh great aunt's dogs and people were always talking about him and I thought always talking about him and I thought always talking about him and I thought oh I could be a vet and then one day I oh I could be a vet and then one day I oh I could be a vet and then one day I saw one of the local vets with his hand saw one of the local vets with his hand saw one of the local vets with his hand up the back side of a cow in a field and up the back side of a cow in a field and up the back side of a cow in a field and he got his hands stuck and the cow was he got his hands stuck and the cow was he got his hands stuck and the cow was kicking him and I thought yeah maybe kicking him and I thought yeah maybe kicking him and I thought yeah maybe maybe not actually no I don't think I maybe not actually no I don't think I maybe not actually no I don't think I wanted to be a vet so I cycle through wanted to be a vet so I cycle through wanted to be a vet so I cycle through all of these things about okay I could all of these things about okay I could all of these things about okay I could get an education but the whole sense was get an education but the whole sense was get an education but the whole sense was you had to apply your education it you had to apply your education it you had to apply your education it wasn't an education for Education sick wasn't an education for Education sick wasn't an education for Education sick it was an education to do something and it was an education to do something and it was an education to do something and when I was about 14 or 15 my local when I was about 14 or 15 my local when I was about 14 or 15 my local Member of Parliament came to the school Member of Parliament came to the school Member of Parliament came to the school and it was one of these you know pep and it was one of these you know pep and it was one of these you know pep talks for kids in these you know talks for kids in these you know talks for kids in these you know deprived areas he had been quite deprived areas he had been quite deprived areas he had been quite prominent in local education and now he prominent in local education and now he prominent in local education and now he was a member of parliament he himself was a member of parliament he himself was a member of parliament he himself had come from a really hard Scrabble had come from a really hard Scrabble had come from a really hard Scrabble background and had risen up through background and had risen up through background and had risen up through education had even gone to Oxford and education had even gone to Oxford and education had even gone to Oxford and done philosophy politics and economics done philosophy politics and economics done philosophy politics and economics and he basically told my class even and he basically told my class even and he basically told my class even though it was highly unlikely any of us though it was highly unlikely any of us though it was highly unlikely any of us were really going to get ahead and go to were really going to get ahead and go to were really going to get ahead and go to Elite institutions look you can get an Elite institutions look you can get an Elite institutions look you can get an education you don't have to be held back education you don't have to be held back education you don't have to be held back by your circumstances but if you do get by your circumstances but if you do get by your circumstances but if you do get an education it's a privilege and you an education it's a privilege and you an education it's a privilege and you need to do something with it need to do something with it need to do something with it so then I'm thinking so then I'm thinking so then I'm thinking well what could I do okay an education

well what could I do okay an education well what could I do okay an education is a qualifications to do something most is a qualifications to do something most is a qualifications to do something most people around me I didn't I knew didn't people around me I didn't I knew didn't people around me I didn't I knew didn't have careers I mean my dad didn't really have careers I mean my dad didn't really have careers I mean my dad didn't really have a career he had jobs my mom you have a career he had jobs my mom you have a career he had jobs my mom you know thought of her nursing as a career know thought of her nursing as a career know thought of her nursing as a career though and it genuinely was and she was though and it genuinely was and she was though and it genuinely was and she was out there trying to help women uh out there trying to help women uh out there trying to help women uh survive childbirth my mother had these survive childbirth my mother had these survive childbirth my mother had these horrific stories you know basically over horrific stories you know basically over horrific stories you know basically over the dining room table I wish he'd stop the dining room table I wish he'd stop the dining room table I wish he'd stop she'd leave out her nursing books and she'd leave out her nursing books and she'd leave out her nursing books and I'd tell you if everyone had had my mum I'd tell you if everyone had had my mum I'd tell you if everyone had had my mum as a as a mother there'd be no there'd as a as a mother there'd be no there'd as a as a mother there'd be no there'd be no reproduction on the planet it was be no reproduction on the planet it was be no reproduction on the planet it was just this Grim horrific stories of just this Grim horrific stories of just this Grim horrific stories of breached births and fistulas and all breached births and fistulas and all breached births and fistulas and all kinds of Horrors that my sister and I kinds of Horrors that my sister and I kinds of Horrors that my sister and I would just go oh my God you know what would just go oh my God you know what would just go oh my God you know what please stop please stop please stop so I thought well you know I don't so I thought well you know I don't so I thought well you know I don't necessarily want to go in that um in necessarily want to go in that um in necessarily want to go in that um in that direction but it was the timing that direction but it was the timing that direction but it was the timing that really cinched things for me that really cinched things for me that really cinched things for me I was very lucky that the region that I I was very lucky that the region that I I was very lucky that the region that I grew up County Durham despite the grew up County Durham despite the grew up County Durham despite the massive Decline de-industrialization and massive Decline de-industrialization and massive Decline de-industrialization and the complete collapse of uh the local the complete collapse of uh the local the complete collapse of uh the local government system around me still government system around me still government system around me still maintained money for education and they maintained money for education and they maintained money for education and they also paid for exchanges and we had also paid for exchanges and we had also paid for exchanges and we had exchange programs with cities in Germany exchange programs with cities in Germany exchange programs with cities in Germany and France also in Russia in Costa Rama and France also in Russia in Costa Rama and France also in Russia in Costa Rama near Yaris level for example no textile near Yaris level for example no textile near Yaris level for example no textile Town similar you know down in its kind Town similar you know down in its kind Town similar you know down in its kind of region but you know quite historic in of region but you know quite historic in of region but you know quite historic in the Russian context in fact the original the Russian context in fact the original the Russian context in fact the original uh birthplace of the Romanov Dynasty and uh birthplace of the Romanov Dynasty and uh birthplace of the Romanov Dynasty and customer just as County Durham and it customer just as County Durham and it customer just as County Durham and it was quite a distinguished historic area was quite a distinguished historic area was quite a distinguished historic area in the in the British context and so it in the in the British context and so it in the in the British context and so it was an idea that I could go on exchanges was an idea that I could go on exchanges was an idea that I could go on exchanges I could learn languages I studied German

I could learn languages I studied German I could learn languages I studied German I studied French I studied French I studied French and then in 1983 and then in 1983 and then in 1983 there was the warsker there was the warsker there was the warsker basically provoked by the Euro methyl basically provoked by the Euro methyl basically provoked by the Euro methyl crisis so the station of new categories crisis so the station of new categories crisis so the station of new categories of strategic nuclear weapons and of strategic nuclear weapons and of strategic nuclear weapons and intermediate nuclear weapons in Western intermediate nuclear weapons in Western intermediate nuclear weapons in Western Europe and in Eastern Europe during the Europe and in Eastern Europe during the Europe and in Eastern Europe during the height of the Cold War and the zero height of the Cold War and the zero height of the Cold War and the zero Missile Crisis over ss-20 and Pershing Missile Crisis over ss-20 and Pershing Missile Crisis over ss-20 and Pershing missiles went on from 1977 so when I was missiles went on from 1977 so when I was missiles went on from 1977 so when I was about 11 or 12 you know all the way about 11 or 12 you know all the way about 11 or 12 you know all the way through into the later part of the 1980s through into the later part of the 1980s through into the later part of the 1980s and in 1983 we came extraordinarily and in 1983 we came extraordinarily and in 1983 we came extraordinarily close close close to a nuclear conflict it was very much to a nuclear conflict it was very much to a nuclear conflict it was very much another rerun of the Cuban Missile another rerun of the Cuban Missile another rerun of the Cuban Missile Crisis of 1962 so 20 years on same kind Crisis of 1962 so 20 years on same kind Crisis of 1962 so 20 years on same kind of thing the Soviets misread although I of thing the Soviets misread although I of thing the Soviets misread although I didn't know this at the time I know a didn't know this at the time I know a didn't know this at the time I know a lot of this you know after the fact but lot of this you know after the fact but lot of this you know after the fact but the tension was palpable but what the tension was palpable but what the tension was palpable but what happened was the Soviets misread the happened was the Soviets misread the happened was the Soviets misread the intentions of a series of exercises uh intentions of a series of exercises uh intentions of a series of exercises uh operation Able Archer that the United operation Able Archer that the United operation Able Archer that the United States was conducting and actually States was conducting and actually States was conducting and actually thought that the United States might be thought that the United States might be thought that the United States might be preparing for a first nuclear strike and preparing for a first nuclear strike and preparing for a first nuclear strike and that then set up a whole set of literal that then set up a whole set of literal that then set up a whole set of literal chain reactions in the Soviet Union chain reactions in the Soviet Union chain reactions in the Soviet Union eventually it was recognized that you eventually it was recognized that you eventually it was recognized that you know all of this was really based on know all of this was really based on know all of this was really based on misperceptions and of course you know misperceptions and of course you know misperceptions and of course you know that later led to negotiations between that later led to negotiations between that later led to negotiations between Gorbachev and Reagan for the Gorbachev and Reagan for the Gorbachev and Reagan for the intermediate nuclear forces the INF intermediate nuclear forces the INF intermediate nuclear forces the INF treaty but in 1983 that tension was just treaty but in 1983 that tension was just treaty but in 1983 that tension was just acute and for as a teenager we were acute and for as a teenager we were acute and for as a teenager we were basically being prepped the whole time

basically being prepped the whole time basically being prepped the whole time for for for um the inevitability of nukaramageddon um the inevitability of nukaramageddon um the inevitability of nukaramageddon there were TV series films in the United there were TV series films in the United there were TV series films in the United States and the UK threads the day after States and the UK threads the day after States and the UK threads the day after we had all these public service we had all these public service we had all these public service announcements telling us to seek announcements telling us to seek announcements telling us to seek Sanctuary or cover and the inevitability Sanctuary or cover and the inevitability Sanctuary or cover and the inevitability of a nuclear blast and you know my house of a nuclear blast and you know my house of a nuclear blast and you know my house was so small they said look for a room was so small they said look for a room was so small they said look for a room without a window there were no rooms without a window there were no rooms without a window there were no rooms without Windows my dad put on these without Windows my dad put on these without Windows my dad put on these really thick curtains over the window really thick curtains over the window really thick curtains over the window you know and said if there was a nuclear you know and said if there was a nuclear you know and said if there was a nuclear flash you know we'd have to you know get flash you know we'd have to you know get flash you know we'd have to you know get down on the floor not look up but the down on the floor not look up but the down on the floor not look up but the curtains would help and we were like curtains would help and we were like curtains would help and we were like this is ridiculous dad and we would all this is ridiculous dad and we would all this is ridiculous dad and we would all try to see if we could squeeze in the uh try to see if we could squeeze in the uh try to see if we could squeeze in the uh space under the stairs a cupboard Under space under the stairs a cupboard Under space under the stairs a cupboard Under the Stairs like Harry Potter I was all the Stairs like Harry Potter I was all the Stairs like Harry Potter I was all just you know totally nuts or go or you just you know totally nuts or go or you just you know totally nuts or go or you had to throw yourself in a ditch if you had to throw yourself in a ditch if you had to throw yourself in a ditch if you were outside were outside were outside and I thought well this this isn't going and I thought well this this isn't going and I thought well this this isn't going to work and one of my great uncles who to work and one of my great uncles who to work and one of my great uncles who had fought in World War II said well had fought in World War II said well had fought in World War II said well look you're good at languages Fiona why look you're good at languages Fiona why look you're good at languages Fiona why didn't you go and study Russian try to didn't you go and study Russian try to didn't you go and study Russian try to figure it out figure out why the figure it out figure out why the figure it out figure out why the Russians are trying to blow us up Russians are trying to blow us up Russians are trying to blow us up because you know during the go talk to because you know during the go talk to because you know during the go talk to them they're exactly during World War II them they're exactly during World War II them they're exactly during World War II yeah the United Kingdom the United yeah the United Kingdom the United yeah the United Kingdom the United States and the Soviet Union had all been States and the Soviet Union had all been States and the Soviet Union had all been wartime allies and my uncle Charlie wartime allies and my uncle Charlie wartime allies and my uncle Charlie thought well there's something gone thought well there's something gone thought well there's something gone wrong here maybe you can figure it out wrong here maybe you can figure it out wrong here maybe you can figure it out and as you said you'd go talk to them so and as you said you'd go talk to them so and as you said you'd go talk to them so I thought okay I'll study Russian so I thought okay I'll study Russian so I thought okay I'll study Russian so that's really how this came about I that's really how this came about I that's really how this came about I thought well it's applying education thought well it's applying education thought well it's applying education I'll just do my very best to understand I'll just do my very best to understand I'll just do my very best to understand everything I possibly can about the everything I possibly can about the everything I possibly can about the Russian language and the Soviet Union Russian language and the Soviet Union Russian language and the Soviet Union and I'll see what I can do and I thought and I'll see what I can do and I thought and I'll see what I can do and I thought well maybe I could become a translator well maybe I could become a translator well maybe I could become a translator so I had visions of myself sitting so I had visions of myself sitting so I had visions of myself sitting around you know listening to things in a around you know listening to things in a around you know listening to things in a big headset and in a basically

big headset and in a basically big headset and in a basically translating perhaps at some you know translating perhaps at some you know translating perhaps at some you know future Arms Control Summit future Arms Control Summit future Arms Control Summit so how did the journey so how did the journey so how did the journey continue with learning Russian continue with learning Russian continue with learning Russian I mean this early dream of being a I mean this early dream of being a I mean this early dream of being a translator and thinking how can I translator and thinking how can I translator and thinking how can I actually uh help understand or maybe actually uh help understand or maybe actually uh help understand or maybe help even deeper way with this conflict help even deeper way with this conflict help even deeper way with this conflict that threatens the existence of the that threatens the existence of the that threatens the existence of the human species human species human species um how did it actually continue um how did it actually continue um how did it actually continue well I mean I read everything I also well I mean I read everything I also well I mean I read everything I also actually possibly could about you know actually possibly could about you know actually possibly could about you know nuclear weapons and nuclear war and you nuclear weapons and nuclear war and you nuclear weapons and nuclear war and you know it started to try to teach myself know it started to try to teach myself know it started to try to teach myself you know Russian a little bit it was a you know Russian a little bit it was a you know Russian a little bit it was a losing context of nuclear war it was losing context of nuclear war it was losing context of nuclear war it was very much in the context of nuclear this very much in the context of nuclear this very much in the context of nuclear this particular point but also in historical particular point but also in historical particular point but also in historical context because I knew that the United context because I knew that the United context because I knew that the United States and the United Kingdom and the States and the United Kingdom and the States and the United Kingdom and the Soviet Union had been more time allies Soviet Union had been more time allies Soviet Union had been more time allies in World War II so try to understand all in World War II so try to understand all in World War II so try to understand all of that and also of that and also of that and also um you know I like many other people I um you know I like many other people I um you know I like many other people I read you know Russian literature in read you know Russian literature in read you know Russian literature in Translation I'd read War and Peace and Translation I'd read War and Peace and Translation I'd read War and Peace and you know I'd love the book actually I you know I'd love the book actually I you know I'd love the book actually I mean particularly the you know the story mean particularly the you know the story mean particularly the you know the story parts of it I wasn't one really at that parts of it I wasn't one really at that parts of it I wasn't one really at that at that time when I was a teenager I at that time when I was a teenager I at that time when I was a teenager I thought Tolstoy went on a bit you know thought Tolstoy went on a bit you know thought Tolstoy went on a bit you know in terms of his theories of the great in terms of his theories of the great in terms of his theories of the great man and of history and you know kind of man and of history and you know kind of man and of history and you know kind of social change though now I appreciate it social change though now I appreciate it social change though now I appreciate it more but when I was about 14 I was like more but when I was about 14 I was like more but when I was about 14 I was like this man needed an editor you know could this man needed an editor you know could this man needed an editor you know could you have just gone on with the story you have just gone on with the story you have just gone on with the story from an amazing story what an incredible from an amazing story what an incredible from an amazing story what an incredible you know kind of book this is I still you know kind of book this is I still you know kind of book this is I still think he needs another book I think his think he needs another book I think his think he needs another book I think his wife tried didn't you but um he got wife tried didn't you but um he got wife tried didn't you but um he got quite upset with her and then I kind of quite upset with her and then I kind of quite upset with her and then I kind of thought to myself well how do I how do I thought to myself well how do I how do I thought to myself well how do I how do I study Russian because there were very

study Russian because there were very study Russian because there were very few schools in my uh region you know few schools in my uh region you know few schools in my uh region you know given the impoverishment of the region given the impoverishment of the region given the impoverishment of the region where you could study Russian so I would where you could study Russian so I would where you could study Russian so I would have to take Russian from scratch have to take Russian from scratch have to take Russian from scratch and this is where things get really and this is where things get really and this is where things get really quite interesting quite interesting quite interesting because there were opportunities to because there were opportunities to because there were opportunities to study study study um Russian at universities but I would um Russian at universities but I would um Russian at universities but I would need to have first of all an intensive need to have first of all an intensive need to have first of all an intensive Russian language course in the summer Russian language course in the summer Russian language course in the summer and I didn't have the money for that and I didn't have the money for that and I didn't have the money for that and the period is around the miners and the period is around the miners and the period is around the miners strike in the United Kingdom in 1984. strike in the United Kingdom in 1984. strike in the United Kingdom in 1984. now the miners of County Durham that now the miners of County Durham that now the miners of County Durham that very interestingly had exchanges and very interestingly had exchanges and very interestingly had exchanges and ties with the miners of donbass going ties with the miners of donbass going ties with the miners of donbass going back to the 1920s back to the 1920s back to the 1920s and as I studied Russian history I and as I studied Russian history I and as I studied Russian history I discovered there was lots of contacts discovered there was lots of contacts discovered there was lots of contacts between you know Bolshevik Soviet Union between you know Bolshevik Soviet Union between you know Bolshevik Soviet Union the early period after the Russian the early period after the Russian the early period after the Russian Revolution but even before that during Revolution but even before that during Revolution but even before that during the Imperial period in Russia between the Imperial period in Russia between the Imperial period in Russia between the northern England and the Russian the northern England and the Russian the northern England and the Russian Empire and the old industrial areas Empire and the old industrial areas Empire and the old industrial areas basically big industrial areas like the basically big industrial areas like the basically big industrial areas like the northeast of England and places like Don northeast of England and places like Don northeast of England and places like Don bass were built up at the same time bass were built up at the same time bass were built up at the same time Often by the same sets of industrialists Often by the same sets of industrialists Often by the same sets of industrialists and danetsk in the donbass region used and danetsk in the donbass region used and danetsk in the donbass region used to be called husicka because it was to be called husicka because it was to be called husicka because it was established by a Welsh industrialist who established by a Welsh industrialist who established by a Welsh industrialist who brought in miners from Wales to help you brought in miners from Wales to help you brought in miners from Wales to help you know kind of develop the coal mines know kind of develop the coal mines know kind of develop the coal mines there and also the the steel works and there and also the the steel works and there and also the the steel works and others that you know were gearing about others that you know were gearing about others that you know were gearing about all the time and so I got very all the time and so I got very all the time and so I got very fascinated in all these linkages and you fascinated in all these linkages and you fascinated in all these linkages and you know famous writers from the early parts know famous writers from the early parts know famous writers from the early parts of the Soviet Union like give Guinea of the Soviet Union like give Guinea of the Soviet Union like give Guinea zamyasin worked in the shipyards in

zamyasin worked in the shipyards in zamyasin worked in the shipyards in Newcastle upon Tyne and there was just Newcastle upon Tyne and there was just Newcastle upon Tyne and there was just this whole set of connections this whole set of connections this whole set of connections and in 1984 and in 1984 and in 1984 when the miners strike took place the when the miners strike took place the when the miners strike took place the miners of donbass along with other miners of donbass along with other miners of donbass along with other miners from famous coal regions like miners from famous coal regions like miners from famous coal regions like Duro Valley for example in Germany or Duro Valley for example in Germany or Duro Valley for example in Germany or mine is in Poland mine is in Poland mine is in Poland sent money in solidarity to the miners sent money in solidarity to the miners sent money in solidarity to the miners of County Durham and they've been these of County Durham and they've been these of County Durham and they've been these exchanges as I said going back and forth exchanges as I said going back and forth exchanges as I said going back and forth since the 1920s formal exchanges between since the 1920s formal exchanges between since the 1920s formal exchanges between miners you know the region the miners miners you know the region the miners miners you know the region the miners unions unions unions and I um heard again from the same uh and I um heard again from the same uh and I um heard again from the same uh great uncle who told me to study Russian great uncle who told me to study Russian great uncle who told me to study Russian that there were actually scholarships of that there were actually scholarships of that there were actually scholarships of the children of miners it could be the children of miners it could be the children of miners it could be former miners as well for their former miners as well for their former miners as well for their education and I should go along to the education and I should go along to the education and I should go along to the miners Hall Players called Red Hills miners Hall Players called Red Hills miners Hall Players called Red Hills where the the minders of country Durham where the the minders of country Durham where the the minders of country Durham had actually pulled all of their had actually pulled all of their had actually pulled all of their resources and built up their own resources and built up their own resources and built up their own Parliament and their own you know kind Parliament and their own you know kind Parliament and their own you know kind of players that they could talk among of players that they could talk among of players that they could talk among themselves to figure out how to enhance themselves to figure out how to enhance themselves to figure out how to enhance the welfare and well-being of their the welfare and well-being of their the welfare and well-being of their communities and they'd put money aside communities and they'd put money aside communities and they'd put money aside for education for minors there was all for education for minors there was all for education for minors there was all kinds of lecture series from the miners kinds of lecture series from the miners kinds of lecture series from the miners and all kinds of other activities and all kinds of other activities and all kinds of other activities supporting soccer teams and artistic supporting soccer teams and artistic supporting soccer teams and artistic circles and writing circles for example circles and writing circles for example circles and writing circles for example people like George Orwell you know were people like George Orwell you know were people like George Orwell you know were involved in some of these writers involved in some of these writers involved in some of these writers circles in other parts of Britain and circles in other parts of Britain and circles in other parts of Britain and Mining communities for example and so uh Mining communities for example and so uh Mining communities for example and so uh they told me I could you know go along they told me I could you know go along they told me I could you know go along and basically apply for a grant to go to and basically apply for a grant to go to and basically apply for a grant to go to study Russian so I show up and it was

study Russian so I show up and it was study Russian so I show up and it was the easiest you know application I've the easiest you know application I've the easiest you know application I've ever come across that just asked me to ever come across that just asked me to ever come across that just asked me to my dad came along with me they asked me my dad came along with me they asked me my dad came along with me they asked me to verify you know that my dad had been to verify you know that my dad had been to verify you know that my dad had been a minor and they looked up his a minor and they looked up his a minor and they looked up his employment record on little cards you employment record on little cards you employment record on little cards you know kind of a little a little tray know kind of a little a little tray know kind of a little a little tray somewhere and then they asked me how somewhere and then they asked me how somewhere and then they asked me how much I needed you know to uh basically much I needed you know to uh basically much I needed you know to uh basically pay for the travel and some of the basic pay for the travel and some of the basic pay for the travel and some of the basic expenses for the um expenses for the um expenses for the um the study and they wrote me a check the study and they wrote me a check the study and they wrote me a check and so thanks to the miners of donbath and so thanks to the miners of donbath and so thanks to the miners of donbath and this money that was deposited with and this money that was deposited with and this money that was deposited with the miners of County Durham with the the miners of County Durham with the the miners of County Durham with the Durham miners Association I got the Durham miners Association I got the Durham miners Association I got the money to study Russian for the first money to study Russian for the first money to study Russian for the first time uh before I embarked on my studies time uh before I embarked on my studies time uh before I embarked on my studies at University as you're speaking now at University as you're speaking now at University as you're speaking now it's reminding me that there's a it's reminding me that there's a it's reminding me that there's a different way to look both at history different way to look both at history different way to look both at history and a geography in the different places and a geography in the different places and a geography in the different places is is is um um um you know this is an industrial region you know this is an industrial region you know this is an industrial region that's right and it echoes in the that's right and it echoes in the that's right and it echoes in the experience of living there experience of living there experience of living there is more captured not by Moscow or Kiev is more captured not by Moscow or Kiev is more captured not by Moscow or Kiev but by at least historically but by just but by at least historically but by just but by at least historically but by just being a mining town and Industry that's being a mining town and Industry that's being a mining town and Industry that's right in the place itself yeah yeah I right in the place itself yeah yeah I right in the place itself yeah yeah I mean there are places in the United mean there are places in the United mean there are places in the United States and Appalachia and West Virginia States and Appalachia and West Virginia States and Appalachia and West Virginia and in Pennsylvania like the Lehigh and in Pennsylvania like the Lehigh and in Pennsylvania like the Lehigh Valley that have the same sense of place Valley that have the same sense of place Valley that have the same sense of place on the northeast of England you know was on the northeast of England you know was on the northeast of England you know was the Cradle of the Industrial Revolution the Cradle of the Industrial Revolution the Cradle of the Industrial Revolution it was the Industrial version of the it was the Industrial version of the it was the Industrial version of the silica of Silicon Valley which has its silica of Silicon Valley which has its silica of Silicon Valley which has its own own own I would say Contours and frames and when

I would say Contours and frames and when I would say Contours and frames and when you come to those industrial areas your you come to those industrial areas your you come to those industrial areas your previous identities get submerged in previous identities get submerged in previous identities get submerged in that larger framework I've always looked that larger framework I've always looked that larger framework I've always looked at the world through that lens of being at the world through that lens of being at the world through that lens of being you know someone from the working class you know someone from the working class you know someone from the working class the blue collar communities from a very the blue collar communities from a very the blue collar communities from a very specific place with lots of historical specific place with lots of historical specific place with lots of historical and economic connotations and economic connotations and economic connotations and it's also a Melting Pot which is the and it's also a Melting Pot which is the and it's also a Melting Pot which is the problems that the donbass has problems that the donbass has problems that the donbass has experienced uh over you know the last 30 experienced uh over you know the last 30 experienced uh over you know the last 30 years that people came from all over the years that people came from all over the years that people came from all over the place to work that of course it was a a place to work that of course it was a a place to work that of course it was a a population that one might say is population that one might say is population that one might say is indigenous you know might have gone back indigenous you know might have gone back indigenous you know might have gone back centuries there but they would have been centuries there but they would have been centuries there but they would have been you know in the smaller rural farming you know in the smaller rural farming you know in the smaller rural farming communities just like it was the same in communities just like it was the same in communities just like it was the same in the northeast of England the northeast of England the northeast of England and people in the case of the northeast and people in the case of the northeast and people in the case of the northeast of England came from Wales they came of England came from Wales they came of England came from Wales they came from further in the south of England the from further in the south of England the from further in the south of England the Midlands they came from Scotland they Midlands they came from Scotland they Midlands they came from Scotland they came from Ireland came from Ireland came from Ireland um I have all of that Heritage in my own um I have all of that Heritage in my own um I have all of that Heritage in my own personal background personal background personal background and you've got a different identity and you've got a different identity and you've got a different identity unless when somebody else tries to unless when somebody else tries to unless when somebody else tries to impose a den an identity like on you impose a den an identity like on you impose a den an identity like on you from the outside that things go awry and from the outside that things go awry and from the outside that things go awry and I think that that's kind of what we've I think that that's kind of what we've I think that that's kind of what we've really seen in the case of Don bass it's really seen in the case of Don bass it's really seen in the case of Don bass it's a place it's a part in many respects a place it's a part in many respects a place it's a part in many respects historically and in terms of its historically and in terms of its historically and in terms of its Evolution and development over time and Evolution and development over time and Evolution and development over time and you know particularly in the case of you you know particularly in the case of you you know particularly in the case of you know Russia uh the Russians have tried know Russia uh the Russians have tried know Russia uh the Russians have tried to say well look you know because most to say well look you know because most to say well look you know because most people speak Russia there as the lingua people speak Russia there as the lingua people speak Russia there as the lingua Franca I mean in the northeast of Franca I mean in the northeast of Franca I mean in the northeast of England because everyone spoke English England because everyone spoke English England because everyone spoke English but lots of people were Irish speakers but lots of people were Irish speakers but lots of people were Irish speakers you know garlic Irish speakers or you you know garlic Irish speakers or you you know garlic Irish speakers or you know some of them might have um know some of them might have um know some of them might have um certainly been Welsh speakers there was certainly been Welsh speakers there was certainly been Welsh speakers there was lots of Welsh miners who spoke Welsh as lots of Welsh miners who spoke Welsh as lots of Welsh miners who spoke Welsh as their first language who came there you

their first language who came there you their first language who came there you know but they but they created a an know but they but they created a an know but they but they created a an identity it's the same in Belfast in identity it's the same in Belfast in identity it's the same in Belfast in Ulster you know the northern province of Ulster you know the northern province of Ulster you know the northern province of um of the you know the whole of the um of the you know the whole of the um of the you know the whole of the Irish Island another part of Ireland Irish Island another part of Ireland Irish Island another part of Ireland that is still part of the United Kingdom that is still part of the United Kingdom that is still part of the United Kingdom that was also a heavily industrialized that was also a heavily industrialized that was also a heavily industrialized area area area um High manufacturing Mass manufacturing um High manufacturing Mass manufacturing um High manufacturing Mass manufacturing shipbuilding for example people came shipbuilding for example people came shipbuilding for example people came from all over there too which is why from all over there too which is why from all over there too which is why when Ireland uh got its independence in when Ireland uh got its independence in when Ireland uh got its independence in the United Kingdom the United Kingdom the United Kingdom Ulster Belfast and that whole region you Ulster Belfast and that whole region you Ulster Belfast and that whole region you know kind of clung on because it was know kind of clung on because it was know kind of clung on because it was again that Melting Pot it was kind of again that Melting Pot it was kind of again that Melting Pot it was kind of intertwined with the larger industrial intertwined with the larger industrial intertwined with the larger industrial economy and had a very different economy and had a very different economy and had a very different identity and so that you know for me identity and so that you know for me identity and so that you know for me growing up in such a specific place with growing up in such a specific place with growing up in such a specific place with such a such a such a special in many respects Heritage gave special in many respects Heritage gave special in many respects Heritage gave me a different perspective on things me a different perspective on things me a different perspective on things when I first went to the Soviet Union in when I first went to the Soviet Union in when I first went to the Soviet Union in 1987 to study there I actually went to a 1987 to study there I actually went to a 1987 to study there I actually went to a translators Institute what was then translators Institute what was then translators Institute what was then called The Morris serez which is now the called The Morris serez which is now the called The Morris serez which is now the Institute of foreign languages Institute of foreign languages Institute of foreign languages um I was immediately struck by how um I was immediately struck by how um I was immediately struck by how similar everything was to the north of similar everything was to the north of similar everything was to the north of England England England because it was just like one big book in because it was just like one big book in because it was just like one big book in class culture that sort of broken out class culture that sort of broken out class culture that sort of broken out onto the national stage everything in onto the national stage everything in onto the national stage everything in northern England was nationalized northern England was nationalized northern England was nationalized we had British steel British coal we had British steel British coal we had British steel British coal British Rail British shipbuilding British Rail British shipbuilding British Rail British shipbuilding because after World War II the private because after World War II the private because after World War II the private sector had been devastated and the state sector had been devastated and the state sector had been devastated and the state had to step in and of course the Soviet had to step in and of course the Soviet had to step in and of course the Soviet Union is one great big giant Union is one great big giant Union is one great big giant nationalized economy when I get there nationalized economy when I get there nationalized economy when I get there and it's just the people's attitudes and

and it's just the people's attitudes and and it's just the people's attitudes and outlooks are the same people didn't work outlooks are the same people didn't work outlooks are the same people didn't work for themselves they always worked for for themselves they always worked for for themselves they always worked for somebody else and it had a quite a a somebody else and it had a quite a a somebody else and it had a quite a a distortion on the way that people looked distortion on the way that people looked distortion on the way that people looked at the world do you still speak Russian at the world do you still speak Russian at the world do you still speak Russian I do yeah it would be a big mystery for everybody it would be a big mystery for everybody and you have an advantage on me because and you have an advantage on me because and you have an advantage on me because your native language as well for people your native language as well for people your native language as well for people wondering the the English speakers in wondering the the English speakers in wondering the the English speakers in the audience you're really missing a lot the audience you're really missing a lot the audience you're really missing a lot from the few sentences we said there from the few sentences we said there from the few sentences we said there um yeah it's it's a fascinating language um yeah it's it's a fascinating language um yeah it's it's a fascinating language that stretches actually geographically that stretches actually geographically that stretches actually geographically across a very large part of this world across a very large part of this world across a very large part of this world so there you are in 1987 an exchange so there you are in 1987 an exchange so there you are in 1987 an exchange student in the Soviet Union what was student in the Soviet Union what was student in the Soviet Union what was that world like well that was was that world like well that was was that world like well that was was absolutely fascinating in that period absolutely fascinating in that period absolutely fascinating in that period because it's the period because it's the period because it's the period That's just around the time of the peak That's just around the time of the peak That's just around the time of the peak of perestroika and mikhil Gorbachev's uh of perestroika and mikhil Gorbachev's uh of perestroika and mikhil Gorbachev's uh role as president role as president role as president um while he wasn't quite present at that um while he wasn't quite present at that um while he wasn't quite present at that point it's all Secretary General of the point it's all Secretary General of the point it's all Secretary General of the Communist part of the Soviet Union Communist part of the Soviet Union Communist part of the Soviet Union trying to transform the whole place trying to transform the whole place trying to transform the whole place so I arrived there in September of 1987.

so I arrived there in September of 1987. so I arrived there in September of 1987. just as Gorbachev and Reagan sign the just as Gorbachev and Reagan sign the just as Gorbachev and Reagan sign the INF treaty just within you know kind of INF treaty just within you know kind of INF treaty just within you know kind of weeks of them about to sign that which weeks of them about to sign that which weeks of them about to sign that which really ends that whole period that had really ends that whole period that had really ends that whole period that had shaped my entire teenage years of the shaped my entire teenage years of the shaped my entire teenage years of the end of the euromissile crisis by finally end of the euromissile crisis by finally end of the euromissile crisis by finally having agreement on you know basically having agreement on you know basically having agreement on you know basically the reduction and constraints on the reduction and constraints on the reduction and constraints on intermediate nuclear forces intermediate nuclear forces intermediate nuclear forces and also at this point Gorbachev is and also at this point Gorbachev is and also at this point Gorbachev is opening the Soviet Union up so we got opening the Soviet Union up so we got opening the Soviet Union up so we got all kinds of opportunities to travel in all kinds of opportunities to travel in all kinds of opportunities to travel in ways that we wouldn't have done before ways that we wouldn't have done before ways that we wouldn't have done before um not just you know in Moscow which is um not just you know in Moscow which is um not just you know in Moscow which is where I was studying its translates into where I was studying its translates into where I was studying its translates into people to the Caucasus to Central Asia I people to the Caucasus to Central Asia I people to the Caucasus to Central Asia I went all the way to uh habarovsk in the went all the way to uh habarovsk in the went all the way to uh habarovsk in the the Russian Far East all the way around the Russian Far East all the way around the Russian Far East all the way around you know kind of Moscow and there was at you know kind of Moscow and there was at you know kind of Moscow and there was at this point it was also the uh Krish this point it was also the uh Krish this point it was also the uh Krish which has become very important now this which has become very important now this which has become very important now this is the anniversary the thousandth is the anniversary the thousandth is the anniversary the thousandth anniversary of the christianization of anniversary of the christianization of anniversary of the christianization of um of Russia which of course has become um of Russia which of course has become um of Russia which of course has become a massive Obsession of Vladimir Putin's a massive Obsession of Vladimir Putin's a massive Obsession of Vladimir Putin's but you know 988 because I was there 87 but you know 988 because I was there 87 but you know 988 because I was there 87 to 88 and at this point the Russian to 88 and at this point the Russian to 88 and at this point the Russian Orthodox Church is undergoing a Revival Orthodox Church is undergoing a Revival Orthodox Church is undergoing a Revival from being repressed during the Soviet from being repressed during the Soviet from being repressed during the Soviet period you suddenly have the church period you suddenly have the church period you suddenly have the church stepping out as a non-governmental stepping out as a non-governmental stepping out as a non-governmental organization and engaging in discussions organization and engaging in discussions organization and engaging in discussions with people about the future of religion with people about the future of religion with people about the future of religion uh so that uh so that uh so that um was you know something that I wasn't um was you know something that I wasn't um was you know something that I wasn't expecting to to witness expecting to to witness expecting to to witness also I mean being in Moscow this is the also I mean being in Moscow this is the also I mean being in Moscow this is the cultural capital of a vast Empire at cultural capital of a vast Empire at cultural capital of a vast Empire at this point I'd never lived in a major

this point I'd never lived in a major this point I'd never lived in a major city before it's the first big city I city before it's the first big city I city before it's the first big city I lived in I'd never been to the Opera you lived in I'd never been to the Opera you lived in I'd never been to the Opera you know I I the first time I got an opera know I I the first time I got an opera know I I the first time I got an opera it's at the ball joy and I'd never seen it's at the ball joy and I'd never seen it's at the ball joy and I'd never seen a ballet I mean I was not exactly a ballet I mean I was not exactly a ballet I mean I was not exactly steeped in high classical culture when steeped in high classical culture when steeped in high classical culture when you're kind of growing up in a in a you're kind of growing up in a in a you're kind of growing up in a in a mining region you know there's very mining region you know there's very mining region you know there's very limited opportunities for this kind of limited opportunities for this kind of limited opportunities for this kind of thing I've been in an abuse Orchestra thing I've been in an abuse Orchestra thing I've been in an abuse Orchestra and a used choir my parents signed me up and a used choir my parents signed me up and a used choir my parents signed me up property everything you know they property everything you know they property everything you know they possibly could education wise but it possibly could education wise but it possibly could education wise but it wasn't exactly any exposure to this so wasn't exactly any exposure to this so wasn't exactly any exposure to this so you know I was kind of a standard by the you know I was kind of a standard by the you know I was kind of a standard by the sort of wealth of the cultural sort of wealth of the cultural sort of wealth of the cultural experience that one could have in Moscow experience that one could have in Moscow experience that one could have in Moscow but the main thing was I was really but the main thing was I was really but the main thing was I was really struck by how the Soviet Union was on struck by how the Soviet Union was on struck by how the Soviet Union was on its last legs because this was Moscow its last legs because this was Moscow its last legs because this was Moscow you know I got this image about what it you know I got this image about what it you know I got this image about what it would look like I was quite to be honest would look like I was quite to be honest would look like I was quite to be honest terrified at first about what I would terrified at first about what I would terrified at first about what I would see there if you know the big nuclear see there if you know the big nuclear see there if you know the big nuclear superpower and as soon as I got there it superpower and as soon as I got there it superpower and as soon as I got there it was just this like as if a huge weight was just this like as if a huge weight was just this like as if a huge weight that I'd been carrying around for years that I'd been carrying around for years that I'd been carrying around for years in my teenage years just disappeared in my teenage years just disappeared in my teenage years just disappeared because it's just ordinary people in because it's just ordinary people in because it's just ordinary people in ordinary players not doing great this is ordinary players not doing great this is ordinary players not doing great this is the period the period the period of you know what they call deficit you of you know what they call deficit you of you know what they call deficit you know so the period of deficits but know so the period of deficits but know so the period of deficits but there's no food in the shops there was there's no food in the shops there was there's no food in the shops there was you know very little in terms of you know very little in terms of you know very little in terms of Commodities because the Commodities because the Commodities because the um supply and demand parts of the um supply and demand parts of the um supply and demand parts of the economic equation were out of whack economic equation were out of whack economic equation were out of whack because there's a total Central planning because there's a total Central planning because there's a total Central planning you know you'd go into you know a shop you know you'd go into you know a shop you know you'd go into you know a shop that was supposed to sell boots and that was supposed to sell boots and that was supposed to sell boots and there'd be just one pile of boots all in there'd be just one pile of boots all in there'd be just one pile of boots all in the same size in the same color I the same size in the same color I the same size in the same color I actually looked out because once I was actually looked out because once I was actually looked out because once I was in this um Hungarian boot shop that was in this um Hungarian boot shop that was in this um Hungarian boot shop that was right next to where my hall of residence right next to where my hall of residence right next to where my hall of residence was and I was looking for new pair of

was and I was looking for new pair of was and I was looking for new pair of boots and every single pair of boots in boots and every single pair of boots in boots and every single pair of boots in the shop were my size the shop were my size the shop were my size and they're all women's boots they're and they're all women's boots they're and they're all women's boots they're not men's boots at all you know because not men's boots at all you know because not men's boots at all you know because if it's been a nervous supply of boots if it's been a nervous supply of boots if it's been a nervous supply of boots and that size production but you could and that size production but you could and that size production but you could really kind of see here that there was really kind of see here that there was really kind of see here that there was something wrong and you know in the something wrong and you know in the something wrong and you know in the north of England everything was closed north of England everything was closed north of England everything was closed down the shops were shuttered because down the shops were shuttered because down the shops were shuttered because there was no demand because everybody there was no demand because everybody there was no demand because everybody lost their jobs it was massive lost their jobs it was massive lost their jobs it was massive employment you know when I went off to employment you know when I went off to employment you know when I went off to University in 1984 90 youth unemployment University in 1984 90 youth unemployment University in 1984 90 youth unemployment in the UK meaning that when kids left in the UK meaning that when kids left in the UK meaning that when kids left school they didn't have something else school they didn't have something else school they didn't have something else to go on to unless they got to to go on to unless they got to to go on to unless they got to University or vocational training or an University or vocational training or an University or vocational training or an apprenticeship and most people were apprenticeship and most people were apprenticeship and most people were still looking you know kind of months still looking you know kind of months still looking you know kind of months out of leaving school and so shops were out of leaving school and so shops were out of leaving school and so shops were closing because people didn't have any closing because people didn't have any closing because people didn't have any money you know I had 50 male money you know I had 50 male money you know I had 50 male unemployment in some of the towns as unemployment in some of the towns as unemployment in some of the towns as there's still works closed down and the there's still works closed down and the there's still works closed down and the the wagon works for the railways for the wagon works for the railways for the wagon works for the railways for example in my area but in Moscow people example in my area but in Moscow people example in my area but in Moscow people in theory did have money but there was in theory did have money but there was in theory did have money but there was just there was nothing to buy the also just there was nothing to buy the also just there was nothing to buy the also the place was falling apart literally I the place was falling apart literally I the place was falling apart literally I saw massive sinkholes open up in the saw massive sinkholes open up in the saw massive sinkholes open up in the street balconies fall off buildings you street balconies fall off buildings you street balconies fall off buildings you know one accident after another know one accident after another know one accident after another and then there was you know this real and then there was you know this real and then there was you know this real kind of sense even though the vibrancy kind of sense even though the vibrancy kind of sense even though the vibrancy and excitement and hope of the Gorbachev and excitement and hope of the Gorbachev and excitement and hope of the Gorbachev period a real sense of the the Soviet period a real sense of the the Soviet period a real sense of the the Soviet Union had lost its way and of course it Union had lost its way and of course it Union had lost its way and of course it was only a year or so after I left from was only a year or so after I left from was only a year or so after I left from that Exchange program and I'd already that Exchange program and I'd already that Exchange program and I'd already started with my degree program in Soviet started with my degree program in Soviet started with my degree program in Soviet studies at talford that the Soviet Union studies at talford that the Soviet Union studies at talford that the Soviet Union basically unraveled and it really did basically unraveled and it really did basically unraveled and it really did unravel it wasn't like it collapsed it unravel it wasn't like it collapsed it unravel it wasn't like it collapsed it was basically that there were so many was basically that there were so many was basically that there were so many debates that garbage offered sparked off debates that garbage offered sparked off debates that garbage offered sparked off about how to reform the country how to

about how to reform the country how to about how to reform the country how to put it on a different path that you know put it on a different path that you know put it on a different path that you know no one was in agreement and it was no one was in agreement and it was no one was in agreement and it was basically all these fights and uh deep basically all these fights and uh deep basically all these fights and uh deep debates and disputes among the elites of debates and disputes among the elites of debates and disputes among the elites of the center as well as you know basically the center as well as you know basically the center as well as you know basically a loss of faith in the system in the a loss of faith in the system in the a loss of faith in the system in the periphery and among the general periphery and among the general periphery and among the general population that in fact pulled it apart population that in fact pulled it apart population that in fact pulled it apart and of course in 1991 and of course in 1991 and of course in 1991 you get um you get um you get um Boris Yeltsin as the head of the Russian Boris Yeltsin as the head of the Russian Boris Yeltsin as the head of the Russian Federation then a constituent part of Federation then a constituent part of Federation then a constituent part of the Soviet Union together with the the Soviet Union together with the the Soviet Union together with the presidents of Ukraine and Belarus all of presidents of Ukraine and Belarus all of presidents of Ukraine and Belarus all of these being individual these being individual these being individual parts of the Soviet Union getting parts of the Soviet Union getting parts of the Soviet Union getting together and agreeing and essentially together and agreeing and essentially together and agreeing and essentially ending it and gorbachevino so basically ending it and gorbachevino so basically ending it and gorbachevino so basically I'm there at the the peak of this whole I'm there at the the peak of this whole I'm there at the the peak of this whole kind of period of experimentation and kind of period of experimentation and kind of period of experimentation and thinking about the future and within a thinking about the future and within a thinking about the future and within a couple of years it's all kind of gone couple of years it's all kind of gone couple of years it's all kind of gone and it's on a different track entirely and it's on a different track entirely and it's on a different track entirely well I wonder if we re-ran the 20th well I wonder if we re-ran the 20th well I wonder if we re-ran the 20th century a thousand times if how many century a thousand times if how many century a thousand times if how many times the Soviet Union will collapse times the Soviet Union will collapse times the Soviet Union will collapse yeah I wonder about that too and I also yeah I wonder about that too and I also yeah I wonder about that too and I also wondered about what would have happened wondered about what would have happened wondered about what would have happened if it didn't collapse and Gorbachev had if it didn't collapse and Gorbachev had if it didn't collapse and Gorbachev had found a different direction found a different direction found a different direction I mean you know we see a very divisive I mean you know we see a very divisive I mean you know we see a very divisive time now in American history the United time now in American history the United time now in American history the United States of America has very different States of America has very different States of America has very different cultures very different uh beliefs cultures very different uh beliefs cultures very different uh beliefs ideologies within those States but those ideologies within those States but those ideologies within those States but those are that's that's kind of the strength are that's that's kind of the strength are that's that's kind of the strength of America's there's these little of America's there's these little of America's there's these little Laboratories of ideas until though that Laboratories of ideas until though that Laboratories of ideas until though that they don't keep together I mean I've had they don't keep together I mean I've had they don't keep together I mean I've had colleagues who have described what's colleagues who have described what's colleagues who have described what's happening in the west right now was a happening in the west right now was a happening in the west right now was a kind of soft secession with States you

kind of soft secession with States you kind of soft secession with States you know going off in their own Direction well you know these kinds of conceptions well you know these kinds of conceptions that we have now are divisions between that we have now are divisions between that we have now are divisions between red and blue States because of the red and blue States because of the red and blue States because of the fracturing of our politics fracturing of our politics fracturing of our politics and I'd always thought that that and I'd always thought that that and I'd always thought that that wouldn't be possible in somewhere like wouldn't be possible in somewhere like wouldn't be possible in somewhere like the United States or um you know many the United States or um you know many the United States or um you know many other countries as well because it other countries as well because it other countries as well because it wasn't that ethnic wasn't that ethnic wasn't that ethnic um uh Dimension but in fact many of our um uh Dimension but in fact many of our um uh Dimension but in fact many of our the way that people talk about politics the way that people talk about politics the way that people talk about politics has given it that kind of appearance in has given it that kind of appearance in has given it that kind of appearance in many respects because look I mean we many respects because look I mean we many respects because look I mean we know from the Soviet Union and the know from the Soviet Union and the know from the Soviet Union and the Soviet period and from where you're from Soviet period and from where you're from Soviet period and from where you're from you know originally in Ukraine that you know originally in Ukraine that you know originally in Ukraine that language is not the man to signify of language is not the man to signify of language is not the man to signify of identity and that identity can take all identity and that identity can take all identity and that identity can take all kinds of of other forms that's really kinds of of other forms that's really kinds of of other forms that's really interesting I mean but interesting I mean but interesting I mean but there has to be a deep grievance of some there has to be a deep grievance of some there has to be a deep grievance of some kind if you took a poll in any other kind if you took a poll in any other kind if you took a poll in any other states in the United States I think a states in the United States I think a states in the United States I think a very small minority people would want to very small minority people would want to very small minority people would want to actually succeed uh even in Texas where actually succeed uh even in Texas where actually succeed uh even in Texas where I spend a lot of my time yeah I spend a lot of my time yeah I spend a lot of my time yeah I I just I think that there is a common I I just I think that there is a common I I just I think that there is a common kind of pride of nation kind of pride of nation kind of pride of nation you know there's a a lot of people you know there's a a lot of people you know there's a a lot of people complain about government and about how complain about government and about how complain about government and about how the country's going the way people the country's going the way people the country's going the way people complain about the weather when it's complain about the weather when it's complain about the weather when it's raining they say oh this stupid weather raining they say oh this stupid weather raining they say oh this stupid weather it's raining again but really what they it's raining again but really what they it's raining again but really what they mean is mean is mean is we're in the smoke together there's a we're in the smoke together there's a we're in the smoke together there's a together there that I I also feel that together there that I I also feel that together there that I I also feel that when I go around because I mean I've when I go around because I mean I've when I go around because I mean I've spent a lot of time since I've spent a lot of time since I've spent a lot of time since I've um my book my book last October and this

um my book my book last October and this um my book my book last October and this last year going around I find I find the last year going around I find I find the last year going around I find I find the same feeling but you know when I same feeling but you know when I same feeling but you know when I traveled around the Soviet Union traveled around the Soviet Union traveled around the Soviet Union back in the late 1980s I didn't get any back in the late 1980s I didn't get any back in the late 1980s I didn't get any kind of sense that people wanted to see kind of sense that people wanted to see kind of sense that people wanted to see the end of the Soviet Union either it the end of the Soviet Union either it the end of the Soviet Union either it was an elite project was an elite project was an elite project there's a a really good book called there's a a really good book called there's a a really good book called Collapse by vladislav zubuck who is a Collapse by vladislav zubuck who is a Collapse by vladislav zubuck who is a professor professor professor um at um London School of Economics at um at um London School of Economics at um at um London School of Economics at LLC and zubock is pretty much my age and LLC and zubock is pretty much my age and LLC and zubock is pretty much my age and he's from you know the former Soviet he's from you know the former Soviet he's from you know the former Soviet Union is Russian and I mean he describes Union is Russian and I mean he describes Union is Russian and I mean he describes it very quite aptly about how it was it very quite aptly about how it was it very quite aptly about how it was kind of the elites you know that kind of the elites you know that kind of the elites you know that basically decided to pull the Soviet basically decided to pull the Soviet basically decided to pull the Soviet Union apart and there was a risk of that Union apart and there was a risk of that Union apart and there was a risk of that you know here as well when you get you know here as well when you get you know here as well when you get parties on politics and people parties on politics and people parties on politics and people forgetting you know they're Americans forgetting you know they're Americans forgetting you know they're Americans and they are all in this together like a and they are all in this together like a and they are all in this together like a lot of the population thing but they lot of the population thing but they lot of the population thing but they think that their own you know narrower think that their own you know narrower think that their own you know narrower parties aren't ideological precepts you parties aren't ideological precepts you parties aren't ideological precepts you know camp for more and in the Civic case know camp for more and in the Civic case know camp for more and in the Civic case of course was also a power play of course was also a power play of course was also a power play you know in a way that actually can't you know in a way that actually can't you know in a way that actually can't quite play out in the United States quite play out in the United States quite play out in the United States because it was the equivalent of because it was the equivalent of because it was the equivalent of Governors in many respects who got Governors in many respects who got Governors in many respects who got together three of them you know in the together three of them you know in the together three of them you know in the case of case of case of um the heads of Russia Ukraine and um the heads of Russia Ukraine and um the heads of Russia Ukraine and Belarus who then you know got rid of you Belarus who then you know got rid of you Belarus who then you know got rid of you know the basically their Central know the basically their Central know the basically their Central um the central figure of Michael um the central figure of Michael um the central figure of Michael Gorbachev it would be a little difficult Gorbachev it would be a little difficult Gorbachev it would be a little difficult to do that the dynamic is not the same to do that the dynamic is not the same to do that the dynamic is not the same but it does worry me of having seen all but it does worry me of having seen all but it does worry me of having seen all of that close up of that close up of that close up in the late 1980s and the early 90s and in the late 1980s and the early 90s and in the late 1980s and the early 90s and I was I spent you know a lot of time in I was I spent you know a lot of time in I was I spent you know a lot of time in the uh in Russia uh as well as in

the uh in Russia uh as well as in the uh in Russia uh as well as in Ukraine and caucus and Central Asia and Ukraine and caucus and Central Asia and Ukraine and caucus and Central Asia and you know other places after the collapse you know other places after the collapse you know other places after the collapse of the Soviet Union but that you you of the Soviet Union but that you you of the Soviet Union but that you you kind of see the same Elite divisions kind of see the same Elite divisions kind of see the same Elite divisions here in the United States pulling here in the United States pulling here in the United States pulling in you know in different uh in different in you know in different uh in different in you know in different uh in different directions and straining you know the directions and straining you know the directions and straining you know the overall body politic and the way that overall body politic and the way that overall body politic and the way that National politics gets imposed on local National politics gets imposed on local National politics gets imposed on local politics and where's that it certainly politics and where's that it certainly politics and where's that it certainly wasn't when I first came to the US in wasn't when I first came to the US in wasn't when I first came to the US in 1989 I didn't honestly in 1989 when I 1989 I didn't honestly in 1989 when I 1989 I didn't honestly in 1989 when I first came here I didn't know anybody's first came here I didn't know anybody's first came here I didn't know anybody's political affiliation I mean I rarely political affiliation I mean I rarely political affiliation I mean I rarely knew their religious affiliation and and knew their religious affiliation and and knew their religious affiliation and and you know obviously race was a was a you know obviously race was a was a you know obviously race was a was a major phenomenon here that was a shock major phenomenon here that was a shock major phenomenon here that was a shock to me when I when I first came but many to me when I when I first came but many to me when I when I first came but many of the kind of the class Regional of the kind of the class Regional of the kind of the class Regional Geographic you know kind of political Geographic you know kind of political Geographic you know kind of political Dimensions that I've seen in other Dimensions that I've seen in other Dimensions that I've seen in other places I didn't see them at play in the places I didn't see them at play in the places I didn't see them at play in the same way then as I do now same way then as I do now same way then as I do now and you take a lot of Pride to this day and you take a lot of Pride to this day and you take a lot of Pride to this day of being nonpartisan of being nonpartisan of being nonpartisan that said that said that said so you served uh so you served uh so you served uh for the George W bush Barack Obama and for the George W bush Barack Obama and for the George W bush Barack Obama and Donald Trump Administrations Donald Trump Administrations Donald Trump Administrations uh always specializing uh always specializing uh always specializing in uh Eurasia and Russia in uh Eurasia and Russia in uh Eurasia and Russia you were the top presidential advisor to you were the top presidential advisor to you were the top presidential advisor to president president president former president Donald Trump on Russia former president Donald Trump on Russia former president Donald Trump on Russia and Europe and famously testified in his and Europe and famously testified in his and Europe and famously testified in his first impeachment trial in uh 2019 first impeachment trial in uh 2019 first impeachment trial in uh 2019 saying saying saying I take great pride in the fact that I'm I take great pride in the fact that I'm I take great pride in the fact that I'm nonpartisan foreign policy expert so

nonpartisan foreign policy expert so nonpartisan foreign policy expert so given that context what does nonpartisan given that context what does nonpartisan given that context what does nonpartisan mean to you mean to you mean to you well it means being very careful about well it means being very careful about well it means being very careful about not putting any kind of ideological lens not putting any kind of ideological lens not putting any kind of ideological lens on anything you know that I'm analyzing on anything you know that I'm analyzing on anything you know that I'm analyzing and looking at or saying about foreign and looking at or saying about foreign and looking at or saying about foreign policy for one thing but also not taking policy for one thing but also not taking policy for one thing but also not taking you know kind of one stance of one party you know kind of one stance of one party you know kind of one stance of one party over another either to be honest I've over another either to be honest I've over another either to be honest I've I've always found American politics I've always found American politics I've always found American politics somewhat confounding because both the somewhat confounding because both the somewhat confounding because both the Democratic and the Republican Party are Democratic and the Republican Party are Democratic and the Republican Party are pretty big tents some of their pretty big tents some of their pretty big tents some of their coalitions you know in Europe it's coalitions you know in Europe it's coalitions you know in Europe it's actually kind of in some respects easier actually kind of in some respects easier actually kind of in some respects easier to navigate the parameters of political to navigate the parameters of political to navigate the parameters of political parties because you you know have quite parties because you you know have quite parties because you you know have quite clear platforms clear platforms clear platforms um you know there's also a longer um you know there's also a longer um you know there's also a longer history in many respects obviously I history in many respects obviously I history in many respects obviously I mean there's a long history here in the mean there's a long history here in the mean there's a long history here in the United States as a development of the United States as a development of the United States as a development of the parties you know going back to the late parties you know going back to the late parties you know going back to the late 18th century but in the United Kingdom 18th century but in the United Kingdom 18th century but in the United Kingdom you know for example in the 20th century you know for example in the 20th century you know for example in the 20th century the development of the mass parties you the development of the mass parties you the development of the mass parties you know it's quite easy to get a handle on know it's quite easy to get a handle on know it's quite easy to get a handle on you know at one point in the UK for you know at one point in the UK for you know at one point in the UK for example the parties were real genuine example the parties were real genuine example the parties were real genuine Mass parties with people who are Mass parties with people who are Mass parties with people who are properly members and took part in properly members and took part in properly members and took part in regular meetings and Paid Dues and you regular meetings and Paid Dues and you regular meetings and Paid Dues and you know it was easy to kind of see what know it was easy to kind of see what know it was easy to kind of see what they stood for and the same in Europe they stood for and the same in Europe they stood for and the same in Europe you know when you look at France and in you know when you look at France and in you know when you look at France and in Germany and Western Germany of course Germany and Western Germany of course Germany and Western Germany of course Italy and elsewhere here in the United Italy and elsewhere here in the United Italy and elsewhere here in the United States it's kind of pretty amorphous you States it's kind of pretty amorphous you States it's kind of pretty amorphous you know the fact that you could kind of know the fact that you could kind of know the fact that you could kind of register you know randomly it seems to register you know randomly it seems to register you know randomly it seems to be a democratic Republican I trumped it be a democratic Republican I trumped it be a democratic Republican I trumped it at one point is Democrat next thing is at one point is Democrat next thing is at one point is Democrat next thing is Republican and then you kind of usurp a Republican and then you kind of usurp a Republican and then you kind of usurp a party apparatus but you don't have to be party apparatus but you don't have to be party apparatus but you don't have to be you're not vetted in any way you're not you're not vetted in any way you're not you're not vetted in any way you're not kind of you know but they don't check kind of you know but they don't check kind of you know but they don't check you out to see if you have ideological

you out to see if you have ideological you out to see if you have ideological coherence you know you could have coherence you know you could have coherence you know you could have someone like Bernie Sanders on the other someone like Bernie Sanders on the other someone like Bernie Sanders on the other side on the left you know basically side on the left you know basically side on the left you know basically calling himself a socialist and you know calling himself a socialist and you know calling himself a socialist and you know running for the the Democratic uh running for the the Democratic uh running for the the Democratic uh presidential nomination so you know kind presidential nomination so you know kind presidential nomination so you know kind of in many respects parties in the of in many respects parties in the of in many respects parties in the United States are much more loose United States are much more loose United States are much more loose movements and I think you can you know movements and I think you can you know movements and I think you can you know it's almost like a kind of an A La Carte it's almost like a kind of an A La Carte it's almost like a kind of an A La Carte menu of different things and that people menu of different things and that people menu of different things and that people can pick upon pick out and it's more can pick upon pick out and it's more can pick upon pick out and it's more over time as I've noticed over time as I've noticed over time as I've noticed um become more like a kind of an um become more like a kind of an um become more like a kind of an affiliation even with a sporting team I affiliation even with a sporting team I affiliation even with a sporting team I mean I get very shocked by the way that mean I get very shocked by the way that mean I get very shocked by the way that people say well I couldn't do this people say well I couldn't do this people say well I couldn't do this because you know that's my side and I because you know that's my side and I because you know that's my side and I couldn't do anything and I couldn't couldn't do anything and I couldn't couldn't do anything and I couldn't support someone for the other side I support someone for the other side I support someone for the other side I mean I have a a relative in my extended mean I have a a relative in my extended mean I have a a relative in my extended family here who family here who family here who um is a um is a um is a um you know died in the more Republican um you know died in the more Republican um you know died in the more Republican and on you know family holiday there's a and on you know family holiday there's a and on you know family holiday there's a book on their table said 100 reasons for book on their table said 100 reasons for book on their table said 100 reasons for voting for a Democrat and I said hey are voting for a Democrat and I said hey are voting for a Democrat and I said hey are you um thinking of Shifting party you um thinking of Shifting party you um thinking of Shifting party affiliation then I opened the book and affiliation then I opened the book and affiliation then I opened the book and it's blank it was pretty funny I had to it's blank it was pretty funny I had to it's blank it was pretty funny I had to laugh I thought well there you go then laugh I thought well there you go then laugh I thought well there you go then there's just there's no way that you there's just there's no way that you there's just there's no way that you know people can pull themselves out of know people can pull themselves out of know people can pull themselves out of these frames so for me it's very these frames so for me it's very these frames so for me it's very important to have that independence of important to have that independence of important to have that independence of thought I think you can be politically thought I think you can be politically thought I think you can be politically engaged on the issues but you know engaged on the issues but you know engaged on the issues but you know basically without taking you know a basically without taking you know a basically without taking you know a stance that's defined by some stance that's defined by some stance that's defined by some ideological ideology or some sense of ideological ideology or some sense of ideological ideology or some sense of kind of parties on affiliation kind of parties on affiliation kind of parties on affiliation I think I tweeted about this maybe not I think I tweeted about this maybe not I think I tweeted about this maybe not eloquently in the statement if I eloquently in the statement if I eloquently in the statement if I remember correctly was something like

remember correctly was something like remember correctly was something like if you honestly can't find a good thing if you honestly can't find a good thing if you honestly can't find a good thing that Donald Trump did or a good thing that Donald Trump did or a good thing that Donald Trump did or a good thing that Joe Biden did that Joe Biden did that Joe Biden did you're not you're not you're not uh you're not thinking about ideas uh you're not thinking about ideas uh you're not thinking about ideas you just picked the tribe I mean it was you just picked the tribe I mean it was you just picked the tribe I mean it was more eloquent than that but it was it more eloquent than that but it was it more eloquent than that but it was it was um is basically this is a really was um is basically this is a really was um is basically this is a really good test to see are you actually good test to see are you actually good test to see are you actually thinking about like how to solve thinking about like how to solve thinking about like how to solve problems versus like your dread team or problems versus like your dread team or problems versus like your dread team or blue team like a sporting team can you blue team like a sporting team can you blue team like a sporting team can you find a good idea of Donald Trump's that find a good idea of Donald Trump's that find a good idea of Donald Trump's that you like you like you like if you're somebody who's against Donald if you're somebody who's against Donald if you're somebody who's against Donald Trump and like acknowledge it to Trump and like acknowledge it to Trump and like acknowledge it to yourself probably oh that's a good idea yourself probably oh that's a good idea yourself probably oh that's a good idea I'm glad he said that or he's even I'm glad he said that or he's even I'm glad he said that or he's even asking the right kinds of questions asking the right kinds of questions asking the right kinds of questions which he often often actually I mean which he often often actually I mean which he often often actually I mean obviously put them in a way that most of obviously put them in a way that most of obviously put them in a way that most of us wouldn't have done but there was us wouldn't have done but there was us wouldn't have done but there was often kind of questions about why is often kind of questions about why is often kind of questions about why is this happening why are we doing this and this happening why are we doing this and this happening why are we doing this and you know we have to challenge ourselves you know we have to challenge ourselves you know we have to challenge ourselves all the time so yeah actually why are we all the time so yeah actually why are we all the time so yeah actually why are we doing that and then you have to and doing that and then you have to and doing that and then you have to and really inspect it and say whether it's really inspect it and say whether it's really inspect it and say whether it's actually worth continuing that way or actually worth continuing that way or actually worth continuing that way or they should be doing something they should be doing something they should be doing something differently now he had a more kind of differently now he had a more kind of differently now he had a more kind of destructive quality to those kinds of destructive quality to those kinds of destructive quality to those kinds of questions you know about maybe it's the questions you know about maybe it's the questions you know about maybe it's the real estate developer in him that's you real estate developer in him that's you real estate developer in him that's you know taking a big wrecking ball to all know taking a big wrecking ball to all know taking a big wrecking ball to all of these kinds of you know sacred of these kinds of you know sacred of these kinds of you know sacred edifices and things like that but often edifices and things like that but often edifices and things like that but often if you really paid attention he was if you really paid attention he was if you really paid attention he was asking a valid set of questions about asking a valid set of questions about asking a valid set of questions about why do we continue to do things like why do we continue to do things like why do we continue to do things like this now we didn't often have answers this now we didn't often have answers this now we didn't often have answers about what he was going to do in about what he was going to do in about what he was going to do in response but those questions still had response but those questions still had response but those questions still had to be asked and we shouldn't be just to be asked and we shouldn't be just to be asked and we shouldn't be just rejecting them you know out of turn rejecting them you know out of turn rejecting them you know out of turn and you know the the another strength

and you know the the another strength and you know the the another strength the thing that people often that the thing that people often that the thing that people often that criticize Donald Trump will say is the criticize Donald Trump will say is the criticize Donald Trump will say is the weakness is his uh lack of Civility weakness is his uh lack of Civility weakness is his uh lack of Civility can be a strength because I I feel like can be a strength because I I feel like can be a strength because I I feel like sometimes bureaucracy functions on sometimes bureaucracy functions on sometimes bureaucracy functions on excessive civility excessive civility excessive civility like uh actually I've seen this it's not like uh actually I've seen this it's not like uh actually I've seen this it's not just it's bureaucracy in all forms like just it's bureaucracy in all forms like just it's bureaucracy in all forms like um um um in tech companies as they grow in tech companies as they grow in tech companies as they grow everybody kind of you know you're everybody kind of you know you're everybody kind of you know you're getting pretty good salary everyone's is getting pretty good salary everyone's is getting pretty good salary everyone's is everyone's comfortable and there's a everyone's comfortable and there's a everyone's comfortable and there's a meeting and you discuss meeting and you discuss meeting and you discuss how to move stuff forward and like you how to move stuff forward and like you how to move stuff forward and like you don't want to be the in the room don't want to be the in the room don't want to be the in the room that says what this is why are we doing that says what this is why are we doing that says what this is why are we doing this this way this is this this way this is this this way this is um on this could be unethical this is um on this could be unethical this is um on this could be unethical this is hurting the world this is totally a dumb hurting the world this is totally a dumb hurting the world this is totally a dumb idea like I mean I could give specific idea like I mean I could give specific idea like I mean I could give specific examples that I have on my mind examples that I have on my mind examples that I have on my mind currently that are technical but the currently that are technical but the currently that are technical but the point is oftentimes the person that's point is oftentimes the person that's point is oftentimes the person that's needed in that room is an yeah needed in that room is an yeah needed in that room is an yeah that's why Steve Jobs worked so Elon that's why Steve Jobs worked so Elon that's why Steve Jobs worked so Elon Musk works you have to roll in that's Musk works you have to roll in that's Musk works you have to roll in that's what first principles thinking looks what first principles thinking looks what first principles thinking looks like the one bit when it doesn't work is like the one bit when it doesn't work is like the one bit when it doesn't work is when they start name calling you know when they start name calling you know when they start name calling you know kind of inciting violence against you kind of inciting violence against you kind of inciting violence against you know the people that we disagree with so know the people that we disagree with so know the people that we disagree with so that was kind of a problem because I that was kind of a problem because I that was kind of a problem because I mean often one you know I when I was in mean often one you know I when I was in mean often one you know I when I was in the administration I had all of Europe the administration I had all of Europe the administration I had all of Europe in my portfolio as well as Russia and in my portfolio as well as Russia and in my portfolio as well as Russia and there were many times when you know we there were many times when you know we there were many times when you know we were dealing with our European were dealing with our European were dealing with our European colleagues where he was asking some colleagues where he was asking some colleagues where he was asking some pretty valid questions about well why pretty valid questions about well why pretty valid questions about well why should we do this if you're doing that should we do this if you're doing that should we do this if you're doing that you know for example the the Nordstrom 2

you know for example the the Nordstrom 2 you know for example the the Nordstrom 2 pipeline the United States has been pipeline the United States has been pipeline the United States has been opposed to Europe's Reliance on gas and opposed to Europe's Reliance on gas and opposed to Europe's Reliance on gas and oil exports from uh Russia you know the oil exports from uh Russia you know the oil exports from uh Russia you know the Soviet Union since the 70s and 80s and Soviet Union since the 70s and 80s and Soviet Union since the 70s and 80s and Trump kept pushing this out idea about Trump kept pushing this out idea about Trump kept pushing this out idea about so why are we you know spending so much so why are we you know spending so much so why are we you know spending so much money on NATO and NATO defense and we're money on NATO and NATO defense and we're money on NATO and NATO defense and we're all talking about this if y'all then you all talking about this if y'all then you all talking about this if y'all then you know basically paying billions you know know basically paying billions you know know basically paying billions you know to Russia for gas isn't this you know to Russia for gas isn't this you know to Russia for gas isn't this you know contradictory and of course it was but contradictory and of course it was but contradictory and of course it was but it was the way that he did it and I it was the way that he did it and I it was the way that he did it and I actually uh you know one instance had a actually uh you know one instance had a actually uh you know one instance had a discussion with a European Defense uh discussion with a European Defense uh discussion with a European Defense uh Minister who basically said to me look Minister who basically said to me look Minister who basically said to me look he's saying exactly the same things as he's saying exactly the same things as he's saying exactly the same things as people said before him including you people said before him including you people said before him including you know Former Defense secretary Gates it's know Former Defense secretary Gates it's know Former Defense secretary Gates it's just the way he says it you know so they just the way he says it you know so they just the way he says it you know so they took offense and then as a result of took offense and then as a result of took offense and then as a result of that they wouldn't take action because that they wouldn't take action because that they wouldn't take action because they took offense at what he said so it they took offense at what he said so it they took offense at what he said so it was a kind of then a way of could you was a kind of then a way of could you was a kind of then a way of could you find some other means of find some other means of find some other means of you know massaging this communication to you know massaging this communication to you know massaging this communication to kind of make it effective which we would kind of make it effective which we would kind of make it effective which we would always try to focus on because it's it's always try to focus on because it's it's always try to focus on because it's it's a kind of the it was the the delivery a kind of the it was the the delivery a kind of the it was the the delivery yeah but but the actual message was was yeah but but the actual message was was yeah but but the actual message was was often spot on or in those kinds of often spot on or in those kinds of often spot on or in those kinds of issues I mean he was actually issues I mean he was actually issues I mean he was actually highlighting you know these ridiculous highlighting you know these ridiculous highlighting you know these ridiculous discrepancies between what people said discrepancies between what people said discrepancies between what people said and what they actually did and what they actually did and what they actually did it's the the delivery the Charisma in it's the the delivery the Charisma in it's the the delivery the Charisma in the room too I'm also understanding the the room too I'm also understanding the the room too I'm also understanding the power of that of a leader it's not just power of that of a leader it's not just power of that of a leader it's not just about what you do at a podium about what you do at a podium about what you do at a podium but in in a room with advisors how you but in in a room with advisors how you but in in a room with advisors how you talk about stuff how you convince other talk about stuff how you convince other talk about stuff how you convince other leaders yeah you don't do it through

leaders yeah you don't do it through leaders yeah you don't do it through gratuities insults and excitement to gratuities insults and excitement to gratuities insults and excitement to violence that's one of the things you violence that's one of the things you violence that's one of the things you just say you don't get anywhere on that just say you don't get anywhere on that just say you don't get anywhere on that well I mean it's possible well I mean it's possible well I mean it's possible tough measures and maximum pressure tough measures and maximum pressure tough measures and maximum pressure often though it does work right because often though it does work right because often though it does work right because there were you know often times where there were you know often times where there were you know often times where you know that kind of Relentless you you know that kind of Relentless you you know that kind of Relentless you know nagging about something are know nagging about something are know nagging about something are constantly raising it actually did have constantly raising it actually did have constantly raising it actually did have results where it hadn't previously right results where it hadn't previously right results where it hadn't previously right so there's you know the maximum pressure so there's you know the maximum pressure so there's you know the maximum pressure if it you know kind of kept on it in the if it you know kind of kept on it in the if it you know kind of kept on it in the right way and you know often when we right way and you know often when we right way and you know often when we were you know coming in behind on were you know coming in behind on were you know coming in behind on pushing on issues you know related to pushing on issues you know related to pushing on issues you know related to Nato or you know other Nato or you know other Nato or you know other things in this same sphere it would things in this same sphere it would things in this same sphere it would actually have an effect actually have an effect actually have an effect it just doesn't get talked about because it just doesn't get talked about because it just doesn't get talked about because it gets overshadowed by you know all of it gets overshadowed by you know all of it gets overshadowed by you know all of the other kind of stuff around this and the other kind of stuff around this and the other kind of stuff around this and um the way that you know he interacted um the way that you know he interacted um the way that you know he interacted with people and uh treated people with people and uh treated people with people and uh treated people what was uh the heart the key insights what was uh the heart the key insights what was uh the heart the key insights to your testimony and that impeachment to your testimony and that impeachment to your testimony and that impeachment look I think there is a straight line look I think there is a straight line look I think there is a straight line between that whole series of episodes between that whole series of episodes between that whole series of episodes and the current war in Ukraine and the current war in Ukraine and the current war in Ukraine because Vladimir Putin and the people because Vladimir Putin and the people because Vladimir Putin and the people around him in the Kremlin around him in the Kremlin around him in the Kremlin concluded that the US did not care one concluded that the US did not care one concluded that the US did not care one little bit about Ukraine and it was just little bit about Ukraine and it was just little bit about Ukraine and it was just a game a game a game the trumpet was personal game he was the trumpet was personal game he was the trumpet was personal game he was basically trying to get basically trying to get basically trying to get Vladimir zielinsky to do him a personal Vladimir zielinsky to do him a personal Vladimir zielinsky to do him a personal favor related to his desire to stay on favor related to his desire to stay on favor related to his desire to stay on in um in power in um in power in um in power in the 2020 election in the 2020 election in the 2020 election and generally they just thought that we and generally they just thought that we and generally they just thought that we were using Ukraine as some kind of proxy

were using Ukraine as some kind of proxy were using Ukraine as some kind of proxy or some kind of instrument within our or some kind of instrument within our or some kind of instrument within our own domestic Politics as that's what it own domestic Politics as that's what it own domestic Politics as that's what it looked like looked like looked like and I think that he knows the result of and I think that he knows the result of and I think that he knows the result of that that that Putin you know took Putin you know took Putin you know took the idea where that he could you know do the idea where that he could you know do the idea where that he could you know do whatever he wanted we were constantly whatever he wanted we were constantly whatever he wanted we were constantly being asked even prior to this by people being asked even prior to this by people being asked even prior to this by people around around around uh Putin like you know Nikolai Patricia uh Putin like you know Nikolai Patricia uh Putin like you know Nikolai Patricia of the head of the national you know of the head of the national you know of the head of the national you know security uh Council equivalent in Russia security uh Council equivalent in Russia security uh Council equivalent in Russia we met with frequently what's Ukraine to we met with frequently what's Ukraine to we met with frequently what's Ukraine to you we don't get it you know why do you you we don't get it you know why do you you we don't get it you know why do you even care so they thought that we even care so they thought that we even care so they thought that we weren't serious that we weren't serious weren't serious that we weren't serious weren't serious that we weren't serious about Ukraine's territorial integrity about Ukraine's territorial integrity about Ukraine's territorial integrity and its independence or or it is the and its independence or or it is the and its independence or or it is the National Security player and Putin also National Security player and Putin also National Security player and Putin also thought that he could just manipulate thought that he could just manipulate thought that he could just manipulate the political space in the United States the political space in the United States the political space in the United States actually could because what was he was actually could because what was he was actually could because what was he was doing was seeding uh all this dissent doing was seeding uh all this dissent doing was seeding uh all this dissent and uh fueling you know already uh in a and uh fueling you know already uh in a and uh fueling you know already uh in a debate inside of uh U.S politics the debate inside of uh U.S politics the debate inside of uh U.S politics the kinds of you know things that we see kinds of you know things that we see kinds of you know things that we see just kind of coming out now this kind of just kind of coming out now this kind of just kind of coming out now this kind of idea that Ukraine was a burden that idea that Ukraine was a burden that idea that Ukraine was a burden that Ukraine was you know basically just Ukraine was you know basically just Ukraine was you know basically just trying to extract things uh from the trying to extract things uh from the trying to extract things uh from the United States the Ukraine had somehow United States the Ukraine had somehow United States the Ukraine had somehow played inside of U.S politics Trump was played inside of U.S politics Trump was played inside of U.S politics Trump was convinced that the ukrainians had done convinced that the ukrainians had done convinced that the ukrainians had done something against him that they had something against him that they had something against him that they had intervened in the elections and that was intervened in the elections and that was intervened in the elections and that was kind of you know a combination of people kind of you know a combination of people kind of you know a combination of people around him trying to find excuses to you around him trying to find excuses to you around him trying to find excuses to you know kind of what had happened in the know kind of what had happened in the know kind of what had happened in the election to kind of divert attention election to kind of divert attention election to kind of divert attention away from Russia's interference in 2016 away from Russia's interference in 2016 away from Russia's interference in 2016 and the Russians themselves poisoning and the Russians themselves poisoning and the Russians themselves poisoning the world uh against Ukraine so you had

the world uh against Ukraine so you had the world uh against Ukraine so you had a kind of a Confluence of circumstances a kind of a Confluence of circumstances a kind of a Confluence of circumstances there and what I was trying to get there and what I was trying to get there and what I was trying to get across across across in that uh testimony was the National in that uh testimony was the National in that uh testimony was the National Security imperative of basically getting Security imperative of basically getting Security imperative of basically getting our act together here and separating out our act together here and separating out our act together here and separating out what was going on in our domestic what was going on in our domestic what was going on in our domestic politics from what was happening in our politics from what was happening in our politics from what was happening in our national security and foreign policy I national security and foreign policy I national security and foreign policy I mean I think we contributed mean I think we contributed mean I think we contributed in that whole mess around the in that whole mess around the in that whole mess around the impeachment but just the whole parallel impeachment but just the whole parallel impeachment but just the whole parallel policies around Ukraine to the war that policies around Ukraine to the war that policies around Ukraine to the war that we now have we now have we now have confronting signaling the value we place confronting signaling the value we place confronting signaling the value we place in peace and stability in that part of in peace and stability in that part of in peace and stability in that part of the world or the reverse by saying we the world or the reverse by saying we the world or the reverse by saying we don't care yeah we seem to not care it don't care yeah we seem to not care it don't care yeah we seem to not care it was just was just was just but I mean the the U.S role in that war but I mean the the U.S role in that war but I mean the the U.S role in that war is very complicated one that's one one is very complicated one that's one one is very complicated one that's one one that's one of the variables that's one of the variables that's one of the variables um just on that testimony um just on that testimony um just on that testimony did it did it did it in part break your heart that you had to in part break your heart that you had to in part break your heart that you had to testify testify testify essentially against the president of the essentially against the president of the essentially against the president of the United States United States United States or is that not how you saw it I don't think I would describe it in I don't think I would describe it in that way I think what I was was deeply that way I think what I was was deeply that way I think what I was was deeply disappointed by what I saw happening disappointed by what I saw happening disappointed by what I saw happening in the American political space I didn't in the American political space I didn't in the American political space I didn't expect it expect it expect it look I was a starry-eyed immigrant look I was a starry-eyed immigrant look I was a starry-eyed immigrant I came to the United States with all of I came to the United States with all of I came to the United States with all of these expectations of what the place these expectations of what the place these expectations of what the place would be I'd already been disabused of would be I'd already been disabused of would be I'd already been disabused of you know some of the

you know some of the you know some of the um let's just say Rosie uh perspectives um let's just say Rosie uh perspectives um let's just say Rosie uh perspectives are held in the United States I'd been are held in the United States I'd been are held in the United States I'd been shocked by uh the depths of shocked by uh the depths of shocked by uh the depths of racial racial racial problems it doesn't even sum up the problems it doesn't even sum up the problems it doesn't even sum up the problems we have in the United States I problems we have in the United States I problems we have in the United States I mean I I couldn't get my head around it mean I I couldn't get my head around it mean I I couldn't get my head around it when I first came I mean I'd read about when I first came I mean I'd read about when I first came I mean I'd read about you know slavery in American history but you know slavery in American history but you know slavery in American history but I hadn't fully fathomed you know really I hadn't fully fathomed you know really I hadn't fully fathomed you know really the kind of the way that was ripping the kind of the way that was ripping the kind of the way that was ripping apart the United States I mean I had to apart the United States I mean I had to apart the United States I mean I had to read Alex's you know to talk Phil and read Alex's you know to talk Phil and read Alex's you know to talk Phil and he'd commented on this and it obviously he'd commented on this and it obviously he'd commented on this and it obviously hadn't you know kind of changed to the hadn't you know kind of changed to the hadn't you know kind of changed to the expect the way that one would have expect the way that one would have expect the way that one would have expect all this time you know from the expect all this time you know from the expect all this time you know from the 18th you know Century onwards so that 18th you know Century onwards so that 18th you know Century onwards so that was kind of one thing that you know that was kind of one thing that you know that was kind of one thing that you know that I realized the Civil Rights uh movement I realized the Civil Rights uh movement I realized the Civil Rights uh movement and all of these you know acts of and all of these you know acts of and all of these you know acts of expansion of suffrage and everything expansion of suffrage and everything expansion of suffrage and everything else were imperfect at best you know and else were imperfect at best you know and else were imperfect at best you know and I was born in 65 the same same time as I was born in 65 the same same time as I was born in 65 the same same time as the Civil Rights Act it was heck of a the Civil Rights Act it was heck of a the Civil Rights Act it was heck of a long way still to go so I wasn't let's long way still to go so I wasn't let's long way still to go so I wasn't let's just say you know as just say you know as just say you know as Starry Eyed about everything as I'd been Starry Eyed about everything as I'd been Starry Eyed about everything as I'd been before but I really saw an incredible before but I really saw an incredible before but I really saw an incredible competence and professionalism in you competence and professionalism in you competence and professionalism in you know the US government it was gonna and know the US government it was gonna and know the US government it was gonna and the election system and the Integrity of the election system and the Integrity of the election system and the Integrity of it and I mean I really saw that I saw it and I mean I really saw that I saw it and I mean I really saw that I saw that the the United States was the gold that the the United States was the gold that the the United States was the gold standard for you know kind of some of standard for you know kind of some of standard for you know kind of some of its you know institutions and I worked its you know institutions and I worked its you know institutions and I worked in the National Intelligence Council and in the National Intelligence Council and in the National Intelligence Council and I'd seen the way that the United States I'd seen the way that the United States I'd seen the way that the United States had tried to address the problems that had tried to address the problems that had tried to address the problems that it had um at first and it was just whole it had um at first and it was just whole it had um at first and it was just whole botched uh analysis of Iraq and this botched uh analysis of Iraq and this botched uh analysis of Iraq and this terrible strategic blunder of terrible strategic blunder of terrible strategic blunder of um honestly a crime in my view of um honestly a crime in my view of um honestly a crime in my view of invading Iraq and but the way that invading Iraq and but the way that invading Iraq and but the way that people were trying to to deal with that people were trying to to deal with that people were trying to to deal with that in the aftermath I mean I went into the

in the aftermath I mean I went into the in the aftermath I mean I went into the National Intelligence Council and the National Intelligence Council and the National Intelligence Council and the dni the director the officer Director of dni the director the officer Director of dni the director the officer Director of National Intelligence when they were National Intelligence when they were National Intelligence when they were coming to terms with what had gone wrong coming to terms with what had gone wrong coming to terms with what had gone wrong in the whole analysis about Iraq in 2003 in the whole analysis about Iraq in 2003 in the whole analysis about Iraq in 2003 you know in the whole work of people you know in the whole work of people you know in the whole work of people trying to pull together after 9 11 and trying to pull together after 9 11 and trying to pull together after 9 11 and to learn all of the lessons from all of to learn all of the lessons from all of to learn all of the lessons from all of this and I saw you know just really this and I saw you know just really this and I saw you know just really genuine striving and deliberation about genuine striving and deliberation about genuine striving and deliberation about what had gone wrong what lesson could we what had gone wrong what lesson could we what had gone wrong what lesson could we learn from this and then suddenly I learn from this and then suddenly I learn from this and then suddenly I found myself in this I couldn't found myself in this I couldn't found myself in this I couldn't redescribe another word it's totally redescribe another word it's totally redescribe another word it's totally crazy locking glass thinking of you know crazy locking glass thinking of you know crazy locking glass thinking of you know Alice in Wonderland Alice Through the Alice in Wonderland Alice Through the Alice in Wonderland Alice Through the Looking Glass version Looking Glass version Looking Glass version of American politics of American politics of American politics I mean I'd seen everything starting to I mean I'd seen everything starting to I mean I'd seen everything starting to unravel over a kind of a period of time unravel over a kind of a period of time unravel over a kind of a period of time before I'd been asked to be in the before I'd been asked to be in the before I'd been asked to be in the administration but I did not expect it administration but I did not expect it administration but I did not expect it to be that bad I honestly didn't to be that bad I honestly didn't to be that bad I honestly didn't I mean I had been warned you know by I mean I had been warned you know by I mean I had been warned you know by people that this was you know kind of people that this was you know kind of people that this was you know kind of really a very serious term that the really a very serious term that the really a very serious term that the United States had taken but I really United States had taken but I really United States had taken but I really thought that National Security would thought that National Security would thought that National Security would still be uppermost in people's minds and still be uppermost in people's minds and still be uppermost in people's minds and it was when a lot of the people that I it was when a lot of the people that I it was when a lot of the people that I work with but what I found you know if work with but what I found you know if work with but what I found you know if you want to use that in a term of you want to use that in a term of you want to use that in a term of heartbreaking was the way in which all heartbreaking was the way in which all heartbreaking was the way in which all of these principles of these principles of these principles but I uh really bought into and tried to but I uh really bought into and tried to but I uh really bought into and tried to uphold in the United States uh uphold in the United States uh uphold in the United States uh government and then the things that we government and then the things that we government and then the things that we were trying to do with me and my were trying to do with me and my were trying to do with me and my colleagues was just being thrown out the colleagues was just being thrown out the colleagues was just being thrown out the window window window and that you know I would have to step and that you know I would have to step and that you know I would have to step up up up in defense of them and in defense of my in defense of them and in defense of my in defense of them and in defense of my colleagues who were being lambasted and colleagues who were being lambasted and colleagues who were being lambasted and you know criticized and given death you know criticized and given death you know criticized and given death threats were actually standing up and threats were actually standing up and threats were actually standing up and doing their own jobs in particular on

doing their own jobs in particular on doing their own jobs in particular on the topic of Ukraine uh not just on the topic of Ukraine uh not just on the topic of Ukraine uh not just on Ukraine but a national security overall Ukraine but a national security overall Ukraine but a national security overall so I mean I'd gone through this whole so I mean I'd gone through this whole so I mean I'd gone through this whole period even before we got to that point period even before we got to that point period even before we got to that point I'm seeing non-partisan government I'm seeing non-partisan government I'm seeing non-partisan government officials being attacked from all sides officials being attacked from all sides officials being attacked from all sides left and right and but especially the left and right and but especially the left and right and but especially the right and being basically accused of right and being basically accused of right and being basically accused of being partisan hacks in a deep State yes being partisan hacks in a deep State yes being partisan hacks in a deep State yes coup plotters you know you name it coup plotters you know you name it coup plotters you know you name it they're um they're um they're um patriotism being questioned as well I patriotism being questioned as well I patriotism being questioned as well I know a lot of people I work with in know a lot of people I work with in know a lot of people I work with in government like myself naturalized government like myself naturalized government like myself naturalized Americans a lot of them are immigrants Americans a lot of them are immigrants Americans a lot of them are immigrants many were refugees and many people had many were refugees and many people had many were refugees and many people had fought and and was uh on behalf of the fought and and was uh on behalf of the fought and and was uh on behalf of the United States and Iraq and Afghanistan United States and Iraq and Afghanistan United States and Iraq and Afghanistan being blown up and you know they put being blown up and you know they put being blown up and you know they put their lives on the line they'd put their their lives on the line they'd put their their lives on the line they'd put their family lives on the line you know family lives on the line you know family lives on the line you know because they believed in America and because they believed in America and because they believed in America and they were just they were reflections of they were just they were reflections of they were just they were reflections of Americans from all kinds of works of Americans from all kinds of works of Americans from all kinds of works of works of life is what really made you works of life is what really made you works of life is what really made you know that cliche of America great it know that cliche of America great it know that cliche of America great it wasn't you know whatever it was it was wasn't you know whatever it was it was wasn't you know whatever it was it was being you know banded around in these being you know banded around in these being you know banded around in these crude crass political terms it was just crude crass political terms it was just crude crass political terms it was just the strength of an incredible set of the strength of an incredible set of the strength of an incredible set of people who've come together from all people who've come together from all people who've come together from all kinds of places and decided that they're kinds of places and decided that they're kinds of places and decided that they're going to make a go of it and that going to make a go of it and that going to make a go of it and that they're going to you know try to work they're going to you know try to work they're going to you know try to work towards the whole bit of idea of the towards the whole bit of idea of the towards the whole bit of idea of the Preamble of the Constitution towards a Preamble of the Constitution towards a Preamble of the Constitution towards a more perfect union and I you know I saw more perfect union and I you know I saw more perfect union and I you know I saw people doing that every single day people doing that every single day people doing that every single day despite all of the things that they despite all of the things that they despite all of the things that they could criticize about the United States could criticize about the United States could criticize about the United States still believing in what they were doing still believing in what they were doing still believing in what they were doing and believing in the promise of the and believing in the promise of the and believing in the promise of the country which is what I felt like and country which is what I felt like and country which is what I felt like and then here we were people would just then here we were people would just then here we were people would just treating it like a game and they were treating it like a game and they were treating it like a game and they were treating people like dirt and they were treating people like dirt and they were treating people like dirt and they were just playing games with people's lives I

just playing games with people's lives I just playing games with people's lives I mean we all had death threats you know mean we all had death threats you know mean we all had death threats you know people's you know whole careers which people's you know whole careers which people's you know whole careers which were not just careers for their own were not just careers for their own were not just careers for their own self-aggrandizement but for careers of self-aggrandizement but for careers of self-aggrandizement but for careers of Public Service trying to give something Public Service trying to give something Public Service trying to give something back were being shattered back were being shattered back were being shattered and I've found you know I just thought and I've found you know I just thought and I've found you know I just thought to myself I'm not gonna let that happen to myself I'm not gonna let that happen to myself I'm not gonna let that happen because you know I've come from well because you know I've come from well because you know I've come from well they're going to send me back to Bishop they're going to send me back to Bishop they're going to send me back to Bishop Auckland in County Durham fine I'm Auckland in County Durham fine I'm Auckland in County Durham fine I'm totally fine to go back you know because totally fine to go back you know because totally fine to go back you know because I could do something back there but I'm I could do something back there but I'm I could do something back there but I'm not going to let this happen I've made not going to let this happen I've made not going to let this happen I've made this choice to come to America I'm all this choice to come to America I'm all this choice to come to America I'm all in in in and and these guys are just behaving and and these guys are just behaving and and these guys are just behaving like a bunch of idiots and the ruining like a bunch of idiots and the ruining like a bunch of idiots and the ruining us you know they're ruining it for us you know they're ruining it for us you know they're ruining it for everybody so the personal attacks and everybody so the personal attacks and everybody so the personal attacks and uncompetent hard-working passionate uncompetent hard-working passionate uncompetent hard-working passionate people who have loved what they do in people who have loved what they do in people who have loved what they do in their heart similar stuff I've seen their heart similar stuff I've seen their heart similar stuff I've seen for virologists and biologists so for virologists and biologists so for virologists and biologists so colleagues basically scientists in the colleagues basically scientists in the colleagues basically scientists in the time of covid when there's a bunch of time of covid when there's a bunch of time of covid when there's a bunch of cynicism and there was just personal cynicism and there was just personal cynicism and there was just personal attacks including death threats on uh attacks including death threats on uh attacks including death threats on uh people that's that you know work on people that's that you know work on people that's that you know work on viruses work yeah are they going around viruses work yeah are they going around viruses work yeah are they going around you know but basically you know but basically you know but basically um with protective gear on okay somebody um with protective gear on okay somebody um with protective gear on okay somebody shoots them in the street that's just shoots them in the street that's just shoots them in the street that's just absurd but absurd but absurd but let me zoom out from the individual let me zoom out from the individual let me zoom out from the individual people yeah and actually look at the people yeah and actually look at the people yeah and actually look at the situations that we saw in the situations that we saw in the situations that we saw in the in the in the in the the George W bush Obama and Donald Trump the George W bush Obama and Donald Trump the George W bush Obama and Donald Trump presidencies presidencies presidencies and I'd like to sort of criticize each and I'd like to sort of criticize each and I'd like to sort of criticize each uh by the not the the treatment of

uh by the not the the treatment of uh by the not the the treatment of individual people but by the results individual people but by the results individual people but by the results right yeah I think that's fair yeah so right yeah I think that's fair yeah so right yeah I think that's fair yeah so if you look at George W bush and maybe if you look at George W bush and maybe if you look at George W bush and maybe you can give me insights this is what's you can give me insights this is what's you can give me insights this is what's fascinating to me when you have fascinating to me when you have fascinating to me when you have extremely competent extremely competent extremely competent uh smart hard-working uh smart hard-working uh smart hard-working well-intentioned people how do we as a well-intentioned people how do we as a well-intentioned people how do we as a system uh make mistakes in foreign system uh make mistakes in foreign system uh make mistakes in foreign policy so the big mistake uh you can policy so the big mistake uh you can policy so the big mistake uh you can characterize in different ways but in characterize in different ways but in characterize in different ways but in George W bush is invading Iraq yeah or George W bush is invading Iraq yeah or George W bush is invading Iraq yeah or maybe how it was invaded or maybe how maybe how it was invaded or maybe how maybe how it was invaded or maybe how the decision process was made to invade the decision process was made to invade the decision process was made to invade it uh again Afghanistan but it uh again Afghanistan but it uh again Afghanistan but but maybe not the invasion but details but maybe not the invasion but details but maybe not the invasion but details around like having a plan about you know around like having a plan about you know around like having a plan about you know how to withdraw all that kind of stuff how to withdraw all that kind of stuff how to withdraw all that kind of stuff then Barack Obama then Barack Obama then Barack Obama to me similarly is is the man who came to me similarly is is the man who came to me similarly is is the man who came to fame early on for being somebody who to fame early on for being somebody who to fame early on for being somebody who was against a rare voice against the was against a rare voice against the was against a rare voice against the invasion of Iraq which was actually a a invasion of Iraq which was actually a a invasion of Iraq which was actually a a brief thing to do at that time brief thing to do at that time brief thing to do at that time and nevertheless he and I mean I don't and nevertheless he and I mean I don't and nevertheless he and I mean I don't know the numbers but I think he was the know the numbers but I think he was the know the numbers but I think he was the president for eight years over increased president for eight years over increased president for eight years over increased drone attacks increa like ever drone attacks increa like ever drone attacks increa like ever everything from a foreign policy everything from a foreign policy everything from a foreign policy perspective uh the the perspective uh the the perspective uh the the military-industrial complex that machine

military-industrial complex that machine military-industrial complex that machine grew in power under him not shrunk and grew in power under him not shrunk and grew in power under him not shrunk and did not withdraw did not withdraw did not withdraw from Afghanistan and then from Afghanistan and then from Afghanistan and then um with Donald Trump the criticisms that um with Donald Trump the criticisms that um with Donald Trump the criticisms that you're presenting sort of uh the the you're presenting sort of uh the the you're presenting sort of uh the the personal attacks the chaos the personal attacks the chaos the personal attacks the chaos the partisanship of people that are supposed partisanship of people that are supposed partisanship of people that are supposed to be nonpartisan so that you know if to be nonpartisan so that you know if to be nonpartisan so that you know if you do sort of the Steel Man the chaos you do sort of the Steel Man the chaos you do sort of the Steel Man the chaos to to make the case for chaos maybe we to to make the case for chaos maybe we to to make the case for chaos maybe we need to shake up the machine need to shake up the machine need to shake up the machine throw a wrench into the engine into the throw a wrench into the engine into the throw a wrench into the engine into the gears and then every individual gear is gears and then every individual gear is gears and then every individual gear is going to be very upset with that because going to be very upset with that because going to be very upset with that because it's the wrench it's not it's not it's it's the wrench it's not it's not it's it's the wrench it's not it's not it's an inefficient process but maybe it an inefficient process but maybe it an inefficient process but maybe it leads uh for government it forces the leads uh for government it forces the leads uh for government it forces the the system as a whole not the the system as a whole not the the system as a whole not the individuals but the system to reconsider individuals but the system to reconsider individuals but the system to reconsider how things are done so obviously all of how things are done so obviously all of how things are done so obviously all of those things those things those things uh the actual results are not that uh the actual results are not that uh the actual results are not that impressive impressive impressive could have done that on the could have done that on the could have done that on the lot I'm all one for Quest and trying to lot I'm all one for Quest and trying to lot I'm all one for Quest and trying to shake things up as well and do things shake things up as well and do things shake things up as well and do things different different different stuff but but you know the question is stuff but but you know the question is stuff but but you know the question is if you bring the whole system down with if you bring the whole system down with if you bring the whole system down with nothing ideas of putting it to play it's nothing ideas of putting it to play it's nothing ideas of putting it to play it's like I mean I'm like many people I've like I mean I'm like many people I've like I mean I'm like many people I've studied the Bolshevik Revolution and you studied the Bolshevik Revolution and you studied the Bolshevik Revolution and you know many others as well and you know know many others as well and you know know many others as well and you know kind of what's what you know what's the kind of what's what you know what's the kind of what's what you know what's the pattern here you know that actually fits pattern here you know that actually fits pattern here you know that actually fits into what you're talking about here is into what you're talking about here is into what you're talking about here is the kind of rigidity of thought on the the kind of rigidity of thought on the the kind of rigidity of thought on the part of revolutionaries in many cases as part of revolutionaries in many cases as part of revolutionaries in many cases as well and also narcissism well and also narcissism well and also narcissism in fact I think it takes a pretty you in fact I think it takes a pretty you in fact I think it takes a pretty you know strong sense of yourself you know

know strong sense of yourself you know know strong sense of yourself you know kind of and owning yourself to want to kind of and owning yourself to want to kind of and owning yourself to want to be present in the United States for be present in the United States for be present in the United States for example we see that in you know many of example we see that in you know many of example we see that in you know many of our presidents have been narcissists to our presidents have been narcissists to our presidents have been narcissists to different you know kind of degrees you different you know kind of degrees you different you know kind of degrees you think about Lenin you know for example think about Lenin you know for example think about Lenin you know for example and people can go back and read about and people can go back and read about and people can go back and read about Lenin he formed his views about 18 and Lenin he formed his views about 18 and Lenin he formed his views about 18 and he never shook them off he never evolved he never shook them off he never evolved he never shook them off he never evolved he he didn't have any kind of diversity he he didn't have any kind of diversity he he didn't have any kind of diversity of thought of thought of thought and on when systems go awry it's when and on when systems go awry it's when and on when systems go awry it's when they don't bring in different they don't bring in different they don't bring in different perspectives perspectives perspectives and so you know Trump have you brought and so you know Trump have you brought and so you know Trump have you brought in different perspectives and actually in different perspectives and actually in different perspectives and actually listen to them and not just you know listen to them and not just you know listen to them and not just you know believe that he himself knew better than believe that he himself knew better than believe that he himself knew better than anyone else and then tried to divide anyone else and then tried to divide anyone else and then tried to divide everybody against each other would have everybody against each other would have everybody against each other would have been a different matter it's a tragedy been a different matter it's a tragedy been a different matter it's a tragedy of a completely and utterly lost set of of a completely and utterly lost set of of a completely and utterly lost set of opportunities because of the flaws in opportunities because of the flaws in opportunities because of the flaws in his own nature his own nature his own nature because I mean again there was all kinds because I mean again there was all kinds because I mean again there was all kinds of things that he could have done to of things that he could have done to of things that he could have done to shake things up and so many people shake things up and so many people shake things up and so many people around him remained completely around him remained completely around him remained completely disappointed and of course he divided disappointed and of course he divided disappointed and of course he divided and pitted people against each other you and pitted people against each other you and pitted people against each other you know creating so much factionalism in know creating so much factionalism in know creating so much factionalism in American politics that you know people American politics that you know people American politics that you know people have forgotten they're Americans they have forgotten they're Americans they have forgotten they're Americans they think that they're red or blue you know think that they're red or blue you know think that they're red or blue you know parts of teams and you know if you go parts of teams and you know if you go parts of teams and you know if you go back over history that's a kind of a back over history that's a kind of a back over history that's a kind of a recipe for for war and you know internal recipe for for war and you know internal recipe for for war and you know internal conflict you go back to you know the conflict you go back to you know the conflict you go back to you know the Byzantine empire for example there's a Byzantine empire for example there's a Byzantine empire for example there's a famous episode of the Nikki riots uh in famous episode of the Nikki riots uh in famous episode of the Nikki riots uh in uh Constantinople where the whole city uh Constantinople where the whole city uh Constantinople where the whole city gets trashed because the greens the Reds gets trashed because the greens the Reds gets trashed because the greens the Reds the blues and these various sporting the blues and these various sporting the blues and these various sporting teams in the Hippodrome get whipped up teams in the Hippodrome get whipped up teams in the Hippodrome get whipped up by political forces and the you know by political forces and the you know by political forces and the you know they pull the place apart and that's you they pull the place apart and that's you they pull the place apart and that's you know kind of where we've been heading on know kind of where we've been heading on know kind of where we've been heading on some of these trajectories but the other some of these trajectories but the other some of these trajectories but the other point is when you look back you know at

point is when you look back you know at point is when you look back you know at Bush and a bummer as well there's a very Bush and a bummer as well there's a very Bush and a bummer as well there's a very narrow circle of decision making you narrow circle of decision making you narrow circle of decision making you know Bush period it's the focus on the know Bush period it's the focus on the know Bush period it's the focus on the executive branch executive branch executive branch um with uh Dick Cheney is the vice um with uh Dick Cheney is the vice um with uh Dick Cheney is the vice president being very fixated on it and president being very fixated on it and president being very fixated on it and Obama it's you know he and you know kind Obama it's you know he and you know kind Obama it's you know he and you know kind of the Bright Young things around him of the Bright Young things around him of the Bright Young things around him you know from himself as you know kind you know from himself as you know kind you know from himself as you know kind of intellectually of intellectually of intellectually um you know one might uh say arrogance um you know one might uh say arrogance um you know one might uh say arrogance in many respects you know he was very in many respects you know he was very in many respects you know he was very smart guy and you know he's convinced smart guy and you know he's convinced smart guy and you know he's convinced that he has and he ruminates over all that he has and he ruminates over all that he has and he ruminates over all things but he's the person who makes you things but he's the person who makes you things but he's the person who makes you know a lot of decisions know a lot of decisions know a lot of decisions and and and um basically George W bush used to call um basically George W bush used to call um basically George W bush used to call himself the decider as well right I mean himself the decider as well right I mean himself the decider as well right I mean they're all the people who make the they're all the people who make the they're all the people who make the decisions it's not always as decisions it's not always as decisions it's not always as consultative as you might think it is consultative as you might think it is consultative as you might think it is and for Trump it's like I'm not and for Trump it's like I'm not and for Trump it's like I'm not listening to anybody at all you know listening to anybody at all you know listening to anybody at all you know it's just me and whatever it is that I'm it's just me and whatever it is that I'm it's just me and whatever it is that I'm walking up today and I've decided to do walking up today and I've decided to do walking up today and I've decided to do so I think you know the problem with all so I think you know the problem with all so I think you know the problem with all of our systems why we don't get results of our systems why we don't get results of our systems why we don't get results is because we don't draw upon you know is because we don't draw upon you know is because we don't draw upon you know the diversity of opinion and all the the diversity of opinion and all the the diversity of opinion and all the ideas of you know people out there like ideas of you know people out there like ideas of you know people out there like you do that in science I mean one I mean you do that in science I mean one I mean you do that in science I mean one I mean all my friends and relatives are in all my friends and relatives are in all my friends and relatives are in science they've got this incredible science they've got this incredible science they've got this incredible collaborations with people you know collaborations with people you know collaborations with people you know across the world I mean how did we get across the world I mean how did we get across the world I mean how did we get to these vaccines for the curve advice to these vaccines for the curve advice to these vaccines for the curve advice because of this incredible years of because of this incredible years of because of this incredible years of collaboration and of you know sharing collaboration and of you know sharing collaboration and of you know sharing results and sharing on ideas and our results and sharing on ideas and our results and sharing on ideas and our whole system has become ossified you whole system has become ossified you whole system has become ossified you know we think about the Congressional know we think about the Congressional know we think about the Congressional system for example as well and there's system for example as well and there's system for example as well and there's you know this kind of Rapid you know you know this kind of Rapid you know you know this kind of Rapid you know turnover that you have in uh Congress turnover that you have in uh Congress turnover that you have in uh Congress every two years you know there's no every two years you know there's no every two years you know there's no incentive for people you know basically incentive for people you know basically incentive for people you know basically to work with others they're constantly to work with others they're constantly to work with others they're constantly campaigning they're constantly trying to

campaigning they're constantly trying to campaigning they're constantly trying to appeal so whatever their base is and appeal so whatever their base is and appeal so whatever their base is and they don't really care about you know they don't really care about you know they don't really care about you know some do you know of their constituents some do you know of their constituents some do you know of their constituents but a lot of people don't and the Senate but a lot of people don't and the Senate but a lot of people don't and the Senate it's all kind of focused on the game of it's all kind of focused on the game of it's all kind of focused on the game of uh of legislation uh for so many people uh of legislation uh for so many people uh of legislation uh for so many people as well not focusing again on that kind as well not focusing again on that kind as well not focusing again on that kind of sense about what are we doing like of sense about what are we doing like of sense about what are we doing like scientists to kind of work together you scientists to kind of work together you scientists to kind of work together you know for the good of the country to push know for the good of the country to push know for the good of the country to push things along and also our government things along and also our government things along and also our government also is siled there's not a lot of also is siled there's not a lot of also is siled there's not a lot of mechanisms for bringing people together mechanisms for bringing people together mechanisms for bringing people together they ought to be in things like the they ought to be in things like the they ought to be in things like the National Security Council the National National Security Council the National National Security Council the National Intelligence Council actually did that Intelligence Council actually did that Intelligence Council actually did that quite successfully at times for analysis quite successfully at times for analysis quite successfully at times for analysis that I saw but we don't have you know we that I saw but we don't have you know we that I saw but we don't have you know we have it within the National Institutes have it within the National Institutes have it within the National Institutes of Health but we saw the CDC breakdown of Health but we saw the CDC breakdown of Health but we saw the CDC breakdown on this you know kind of front we we on this you know kind of front we we on this you know kind of front we we don't have sufficient of those don't have sufficient of those don't have sufficient of those institutions that bring people together institutions that bring people together institutions that bring people together from all kinds of different backgrounds from all kinds of different backgrounds from all kinds of different backgrounds you know one of the other problems that you know one of the other problems that you know one of the other problems that we've had with government with the we've had with government with the we've had with government with the federal government over you know state federal government over you know state federal government over you know state and local government is it actually and local government is it actually and local government is it actually quite small people think that the quite small people think that the quite small people think that the federal government's huge because we've federal government's huge because we've federal government's huge because we've got personal service in the military got personal service in the military got personal service in the military tree that are part of it but your actual tree that are part of it but your actual tree that are part of it but your actual federal government employees is a very federal government employees is a very federal government employees is a very small number small number small number and you know the senior executive and you know the senior executive and you know the senior executive service part of that is the older white service part of that is the older white service part of that is the older white guys you know who kind of come up all guys you know who kind of come up all guys you know who kind of come up all the way over the last you know several the way over the last you know several the way over the last you know several decades we have a really hard time decades we have a really hard time decades we have a really hard time bringing in younger people into that bringing in younger people into that bringing in younger people into that kind of government service and that's kind of government service and that's kind of government service and that's their political hacks you know and they their political hacks you know and they their political hacks you know and they want to you know kind of or they're kind want to you know kind of or they're kind want to you know kind of or they're kind of looking for power and you know sort of looking for power and you know sort of looking for power and you know sort of influence of influence of influence we have a hard time getting people like we have a hard time getting people like we have a hard time getting people like yourself and other you know younger yourself and other you know younger yourself and other you know younger people kind of coming in people kind of coming in people kind of coming in to make a career out of public service

to make a career out of public service to make a career out of public service and also retaining them because you know and also retaining them because you know and also retaining them because you know people with Incredible skills often get people with Incredible skills often get people with Incredible skills often get poached away into the private sector and poached away into the private sector and poached away into the private sector and you know a lot of the people that I work you know a lot of the people that I work you know a lot of the people that I work with the National Security side are now with the National Security side are now with the National Security side are now what all kinds of you know high-end uh what all kinds of you know high-end uh what all kinds of you know high-end uh political consultancies or they've gone political consultancies or they've gone political consultancies or they've gone to Silicon Valley and they've they've to Silicon Valley and they've they've to Silicon Valley and they've they've gone to this place in that place because gone to this place in that place because gone to this place in that place because after a time as a younger person they're after a time as a younger person they're after a time as a younger person they're not you know rising up particularly not you know rising up particularly not you know rising up particularly quickly because there's a pretty rigid quickly because there's a pretty rigid quickly because there's a pretty rigid way of looking at the the hierarchies way of looking at the the hierarchies way of looking at the the hierarchies and the promotion schemes and they're and the promotion schemes and they're and the promotion schemes and they're also getting lambasted by everybody also getting lambasted by everybody also getting lambasted by everybody people like ah you know public servants people like ah you know public servants people like ah you know public servants they're not really public servants they're not really public servants they're not really public servants there's this whole lack and loss there's this whole lack and loss there's this whole lack and loss um of a kind of a faith in public um of a kind of a faith in public um of a kind of a faith in public service service service and you know the last few years I've and you know the last few years I've and you know the last few years I've really done a lot of damage we need to really done a lot of damage we need to really done a lot of damage we need to revitalize revitalize revitalize uh our government system to get better uh our government system to get better uh our government system to get better results we need to bring more people in results we need to bring more people in results we need to bring more people in even if it's you know for a period of even if it's you know for a period of even if it's you know for a period of time not just through expensive time not just through expensive time not just through expensive contracts for you know the the big contracts for you know the the big contracts for you know the the big Consulting companies and you know other Consulting companies and you know other Consulting companies and you know other entities that do government work out entities that do government work out entities that do government work out there but getting into people in for a there but getting into people in for a there but getting into people in for a period of time expending expanding some period of time expending expanding some period of time expending expanding some of these management fellowships and the of these management fellowships and the of these management fellowships and the White House fellows and you know White House fellows and you know White House fellows and you know bringing in you know scientists uh you bringing in you know scientists uh you bringing in you know scientists uh you know from the outside giving you know know from the outside giving you know know from the outside giving you know that that kind of opportunity for that that kind of opportunity for that that kind of opportunity for collaboration that we see in other collaboration that we see in other collaboration that we see in other spheres I think that's actually one of spheres I think that's actually one of spheres I think that's actually one of the biggest roles the biggest roles the biggest roles for a president that for a president that for a president that for some reason during the election for some reason during the election for some reason during the election that's never talked about is how good that's never talked about is how good that's never talked about is how good are you at hiring yeah and and creating

are you at hiring yeah and and creating are you at hiring yeah and and creating a culture of like attracting the right I a culture of like attracting the right I a culture of like attracting the right I mean basically Chief hire when you think mean basically Chief hire when you think mean basically Chief hire when you think of a CEO of a CEO of a CEO like the great CEOs are like the great CEOs are like the great CEOs are I mean maybe people don't talk about it I mean maybe people don't talk about it I mean maybe people don't talk about it that often but they do more often for that often but they do more often for that often but they do more often for CEOs than they do for presidents it's CEOs than they do for presidents it's CEOs than they do for presidents it's like how good are you building a team like how good are you building a team like how good are you building a team well we make it really difficult because well we make it really difficult because well we make it really difficult because the political process I mean and also the political process I mean and also the political process I mean and also because we have so many political because we have so many political because we have so many political appointments we ought to have less to be appointments we ought to have less to be appointments we ought to have less to be honest I mean we look at other honest I mean we look at other honest I mean we look at other governments around the world you know governments around the world you know governments around the world you know that are smaller it's much easier for that are smaller it's much easier for that are smaller it's much easier for them to hire people in yeah you know them to hire people in yeah you know them to hire people in yeah you know some of the most successful governments some of the most successful governments some of the most successful governments are much smaller and it's not that I say are much smaller and it's not that I say are much smaller and it's not that I say that you know the government is that you know the government is that you know the government is necessarily too big but it's just necessarily too big but it's just necessarily too big but it's just thinking about each unit in a different thinking about each unit in a different thinking about each unit in a different way we shouldn't be having so many way we shouldn't be having so many way we shouldn't be having so many political appointments we should kind of political appointments we should kind of political appointments we should kind of find more professional appointments more find more professional appointments more find more professional appointments more non-parties on appointments because you non-parties on appointments because you non-parties on appointments because you know with every single Administration know with every single Administration know with every single Administration that we've had over the last but the that we've had over the last but the that we've had over the last but the span of presidency they have jobs that span of presidency they have jobs that span of presidency they have jobs that are unfulfilled because they can't get are unfulfilled because they can't get are unfulfilled because they can't get their candidates through Congress and their candidates through Congress and their candidates through Congress and the Senate because of all the kind of the Senate because of all the kind of the Senate because of all the kind of political games that are being played I political games that are being played I political games that are being played I know loads of people have just been held know loads of people have just been held know loads of people have just been held up because it's just on the whim of you up because it's just on the whim of you up because it's just on the whim of you know some member of Congress even though know some member of Congress even though know some member of Congress even though that the actual position that they want that the actual position that they want that the actual position that they want is really Technical and doesn't really is really Technical and doesn't really is really Technical and doesn't really care about what you know what political care about what you know what political care about what you know what political you know Preference they particularly you know Preference they particularly you know Preference they particularly have so I think we have to try to look have so I think we have to try to look have so I think we have to try to look at the whole system of governments in at the whole system of governments in at the whole system of governments in the way that we would over you know the way that we would over you know the way that we would over you know other professional other professional other professional sectors and to try to think about this sectors and to try to think about this sectors and to try to think about this as just as you said there that this is a

as just as you said there that this is a as just as you said there that this is a government that's actually running our government that's actually running our government that's actually running our country this is an operating system and country this is an operating system and country this is an operating system and you wouldn't operate it like that if you you wouldn't operate it like that if you you wouldn't operate it like that if you were you know looking at in any kind of were you know looking at in any kind of were you know looking at in any kind of rational way it shouldn't be so rational way it shouldn't be so rational way it shouldn't be so ideologically or parties untainted so ideologically or parties untainted so ideologically or parties untainted so you're at every level anyway so I would you're at every level anyway so I would you're at every level anyway so I would actually just make a bid for a more actually just make a bid for a more actually just make a bid for a more non-partisan approach to a lot of the non-partisan approach to a lot of the non-partisan approach to a lot of the parts of government you can still kind parts of government you can still kind parts of government you can still kind of bring in you know the political and of bring in you know the political and of bring in you know the political and premature but also you have to explain premature but also you have to explain premature but also you have to explain to people writ large in America as well to people writ large in America as well to people writ large in America as well that this is your government yeah and that this is your government yeah and that this is your government yeah and that actually you could also be part of that actually you could also be part of that actually you could also be part of this yeah things like the small business this yeah things like the small business this yeah things like the small business administration the US Department of administration the US Department of administration the US Department of Agriculture you know all these kind of Agriculture you know all these kind of Agriculture you know all these kind of things that actually people interact things that actually people interact things that actually people interact with but they don't even know it the with but they don't even know it the with but they don't even know it the Postal Service you know all of these Postal Service you know all of these Postal Service you know all of these things I mean people actually when you things I mean people actually when you things I mean people actually when you ask them about uh different functions of ask them about uh different functions of ask them about uh different functions of government they have a lot of support government they have a lot of support government they have a lot of support for the National Park Service you know for the National Park Service you know for the National Park Service you know for example it's just when you talk for example it's just when you talk for example it's just when you talk about government in an abstract where about government in an abstract where about government in an abstract where like oh yeah no too much bloated you like oh yeah no too much bloated you like oh yeah no too much bloated you know not efficient and effective but if know not efficient and effective but if know not efficient and effective but if you kind of bring it down more to the you kind of bring it down more to the you kind of bring it down more to the kind of local and federal levels that's kind of local and federal levels that's kind of local and federal levels that's kind of you know when people really see kind of you know when people really see kind of you know when people really see it and if people could see kind of it and if people could see kind of it and if people could see kind of themselves reflected and many of the themselves reflected and many of the themselves reflected and many of the people have gone into public service I people have gone into public service I people have gone into public service I think that they would yeah they have a think that they would yeah they have a think that they would yeah they have a lot more support for it more like lot more support for it more like lot more support for it more like Superstars like uh Superstars like uh Superstars like uh individuals that are like big on social individuals that are like big on social individuals that are like big on social media big in the public eye and having media big in the public eye and having media big in the public eye and having fun with it and showing cool stuff that fun with it and showing cool stuff that fun with it and showing cool stuff that it's not there's right now a lot of it's not there's right now a lot of it's not there's right now a lot of people see government as basically people see government as basically people see government as basically partisan Warfare and then partisan Warfare and then partisan Warfare and then it just it makes it unpleasant to do the

it just it makes it unpleasant to do the it just it makes it unpleasant to do the job it makes it uninspiring for people job it makes it uninspiring for people job it makes it uninspiring for people looking in from outside about what's looking in from outside about what's looking in from outside about what's going on inside government all of it the going on inside government all of it the going on inside government all of it the whole thing but you you are you know whole thing but you you are you know whole thing but you you are you know just just just with all due respect you're pretty rare with all due respect you're pretty rare with all due respect you're pretty rare individual in terms of non-partisanship individual in terms of non-partisanship individual in terms of non-partisanship like it's just actually your whole life like it's just actually your whole life like it's just actually your whole life story The The Humbling aspect of of your story The The Humbling aspect of of your story The The Humbling aspect of of your upbringing and everything like that uh upbringing and everything like that uh upbringing and everything like that uh do you think it's possible to have a lot do you think it's possible to have a lot do you think it's possible to have a lot of nonpartisan of nonpartisan of nonpartisan experts in government like can you be a experts in government like can you be a experts in government like can you be a top presidential advisor on Russia top presidential advisor on Russia top presidential advisor on Russia for 10 years for 15 years and remain for 10 years for 15 years and remain for 10 years for 15 years and remain nonpartisan I think you can I don't nonpartisan I think you can I don't nonpartisan I think you can I don't think that's advisable though by the way think that's advisable though by the way think that's advisable though by the way because I mean I don't think anybody because I mean I don't think anybody because I mean I don't think anybody should be there you know so your first should be there you know so your first should be there you know so your first advice is to fire yourself afterwards advice is to fire yourself afterwards advice is to fire yourself afterwards you should you should definitely have you should you should definitely have you should you should definitely have terminal it's just like you shouldn't terminal it's just like you shouldn't terminal it's just like you shouldn't everything right I mean it's just like everything right I mean it's just like everything right I mean it's just like tenure in universities tenure in universities tenure in universities yeah you kind of you know we do we have yeah you kind of you know we do we have yeah you kind of you know we do we have natural term limits but you know you're natural term limits but you know you're natural term limits but you know you're kind of um you know basically bottling kind of um you know basically bottling kind of um you know basically bottling it up for other people I mean you know it up for other people I mean you know it up for other people I mean you know what I'm trying to do now I'm 57 now what I'm trying to do now I'm 57 now what I'm trying to do now I'm 57 now um and I always try to work with you um and I always try to work with you um and I always try to work with you know people from different generations know people from different generations know people from different generations to me just like to me just like to me just like you know I've really benefited from you know I've really benefited from you know I've really benefited from these you know kind of mentorships of these you know kind of mentorships of these you know kind of mentorships of people older you can you know Mentor up people older you can you know Mentor up people older you can you know Mentor up and well and Mentor down I mean I would and well and Mentor down I mean I would and well and Mentor down I mean I would you know try to get you know people from you know try to get you know people from you know try to get you know people from different backgrounds and different different backgrounds and different different backgrounds and different generations to work together in teams generations to work together in teams generations to work together in teams honestly I'd like to more team networked honestly I'd like to more team networked honestly I'd like to more team networked uh kind of approach to things not the uh kind of approach to things not the uh kind of approach to things not the kind of things that you get again in kind of things that you get again in kind of things that you get again in science right I mean all these ideas are science right I mean all these ideas are science right I mean all these ideas are going to come from all kinds of

going to come from all kinds of going to come from all kinds of different perspectives age and different perspectives age and different perspectives age and experience does count for something but experience does count for something but experience does count for something but you know fresh ideas and coming in and you know fresh ideas and coming in and you know fresh ideas and coming in and looking at a problem from a different looking at a problem from a different looking at a problem from a different perspective and seeing something that perspective and seeing something that perspective and seeing something that somebody else hasn't seen before I mean somebody else hasn't seen before I mean somebody else hasn't seen before I mean I just you know kind of love working in I just you know kind of love working in I just you know kind of love working in a an environment with all kinds of a an environment with all kinds of a an environment with all kinds of different people and people who don't different people and people who don't different people and people who don't agree with you you need people to take agree with you you need people to take agree with you you need people to take you on and say absolute that's crap you you on and say absolute that's crap you you on and say absolute that's crap you know kind of where did you come up with know kind of where did you come up with know kind of where did you come up with that from and go hang on well explain to that from and go hang on well explain to that from and go hang on well explain to me why you think so and then you know me why you think so and then you know me why you think so and then you know you have this kind of iterative process you have this kind of iterative process you have this kind of iterative process back and forth I mean I would always back and forth I mean I would always back and forth I mean I would always encourage my colleagues to tell me when encourage my colleagues to tell me when encourage my colleagues to tell me when they thought it was wrong I mean they thought it was wrong I mean they thought it was wrong I mean sometimes I didn't agree because I sometimes I didn't agree because I sometimes I didn't agree because I didn't see the the didn't see the the didn't see the the um you know the reasoning but other um you know the reasoning but other um you know the reasoning but other times I'm like they're right I you know times I'm like they're right I you know times I'm like they're right I you know but that was a complete mistake I I need but that was a complete mistake I I need but that was a complete mistake I I need to admit that and you know kind of we to admit that and you know kind of we to admit that and you know kind of we need to figure out a different way of need to figure out a different way of need to figure out a different way of doing things but at one point I do want doing things but at one point I do want doing things but at one point I do want to get across is there were a lot of to get across is there were a lot of to get across is there were a lot of people who were non-partisan that I people who were non-partisan that I people who were non-partisan that I worked with I mean honestly and most of worked with I mean honestly and most of worked with I mean honestly and most of the jobs that I had up until more the jobs that I had up until more the jobs that I had up until more recently I had no idea about people's recently I had no idea about people's recently I had no idea about people's political affiliation it's just when you political affiliation it's just when you political affiliation it's just when you get into this kind of Highly charged get into this kind of Highly charged get into this kind of Highly charged partisan environment they kind of force partisan environment they kind of force partisan environment they kind of force people you know to make decisions and people you know to make decisions and people you know to make decisions and when you have you know one political when you have you know one political when you have you know one political party of political fashion that's trying party of political fashion that's trying party of political fashion that's trying to usurp power it does make it quite to usurp power it does make it quite to usurp power it does make it quite difficult I mean that's the situation difficult I mean that's the situation difficult I mean that's the situation that we're in right now and you know that we're in right now and you know that we're in right now and you know we're seeing some of the things we're seeing some of the things we're seeing some of the things happening since I've seen and studied in happening since I've seen and studied in happening since I've seen and studied in other settings or seen for myself other settings or seen for myself other settings or seen for myself happening you know when you have happening you know when you have happening you know when you have um a president who wants to cling on to um a president who wants to cling on to um a president who wants to cling on to power you know you've got you've got to power you know you've got you've got to power you know you've got you've got to call that out you know is that a call that out you know is that a call that out you know is that a partisan act or is that a kind of you partisan act or is that a kind of you partisan act or is that a kind of you know defense of that larger uh political

know defense of that larger uh political know defense of that larger uh political system that that you're part of you know system that that you're part of you know system that that you're part of you know so I think we've got to recognize that so I think we've got to recognize that so I think we've got to recognize that even if you're not partisan you can be even if you're not partisan you can be even if you're not partisan you can be politically engaged and you know politically engaged and you know politically engaged and you know sometimes you just have to stand up sometimes you just have to stand up sometimes you just have to stand up there and speak out which is you know there and speak out which is you know there and speak out which is you know what I did what others did as well none what I did what others did as well none what I did what others did as well none of those people who spoke out you know of those people who spoke out you know of those people who spoke out you know can initially saw that as a partisan act can initially saw that as a partisan act can initially saw that as a partisan act even if some of them since then have even if some of them since then have even if some of them since then have decided to make political choices they decided to make political choices they decided to make political choices they hadn't made before because in the hadn't made before because in the hadn't made before because in the situation actually forced people into situation actually forced people into situation actually forced people into you know taking sites it's very hard to you know taking sites it's very hard to you know taking sites it's very hard to still stay above The Fray when you've still stay above The Fray when you've still stay above The Fray when you've got you know someone who's trying to got you know someone who's trying to got you know someone who's trying to perpetrate a coup yeah just to linger on perpetrate a coup yeah just to linger on perpetrate a coup yeah just to linger on that I think it's hard and it's the that I think it's hard and it's the that I think it's hard and it's the courageous thing to do to criticize a courageous thing to do to criticize a courageous thing to do to criticize a president and not fall into partisanship president and not fall into partisanship president and not fall into partisanship after because the whole world will after because the whole world will after because the whole world will assume if you criticize Donald Trump assume if you criticize Donald Trump assume if you criticize Donald Trump that you're clearly that you're clearly that you're clearly uh a Democrat and so they will just uh a Democrat and so they will just uh a Democrat and so they will just everybody will criticize you for being a everybody will criticize you for being a everybody will criticize you for being a Democrat and then so you're now stuck in Democrat and then so you're now stuck in Democrat and then so you're now stuck in that so you're going to just Embrace that so you're going to just Embrace that so you're going to just Embrace that role but to still walk the that role but to still walk the that role but to still walk the nonpartisan route after the criticism nonpartisan route after the criticism nonpartisan route after the criticism that's the hard Road uh so not let the that's the hard Road uh so not let the that's the hard Road uh so not let the criticisms break you into uh criticisms break you into uh criticisms break you into uh you know into a certain kind of you know into a certain kind of you know into a certain kind of ideological set of positions I mean our ideological set of positions I mean our ideological set of positions I mean our political system needs revitalization we political system needs revitalization we political system needs revitalization we need to be taking a long hard look at need to be taking a long hard look at need to be taking a long hard look at ourselves here and I think what people ourselves here and I think what people ourselves here and I think what people are calling out for look there's a vast are calling out for look there's a vast are calling out for look there's a vast with a population of like me who were with a population of like me who were with a population of like me who were unaffiliated you know maybe some lean in

unaffiliated you know maybe some lean in unaffiliated you know maybe some lean in One Direction Over another and you know One Direction Over another and you know One Direction Over another and you know unaffiliated doesn't mean you don't have unaffiliated doesn't mean you don't have unaffiliated doesn't mean you don't have views about things and political views about things and political views about things and political opinions and you know you may sound opinions and you know you may sound opinions and you know you may sound quite extreme on you know some of those quite extreme on you know some of those quite extreme on you know some of those you know by the from a left or right you know by the from a left or right you know by the from a left or right right perspective what people are right perspective what people are right perspective what people are looking for is kind of an articulation looking for is kind of an articulation looking for is kind of an articulation you know things in a kind of a clear way you know things in a kind of a clear way you know things in a kind of a clear way that they can get a handle on and that they can get a handle on and that they can get a handle on and they're also looking for a they're also looking for a they're also looking for a representation somebody's going to be representation somebody's going to be representation somebody's going to be there on you know for you you know not there on you know for you you know not there on you know for you you know not part of a kind of a rigid team that part of a kind of a rigid team that part of a kind of a rigid team that you're excluded from you're the ins and you're excluded from you're the ins and you're excluded from you're the ins and the outs or what people are looking at the outs or what people are looking at the outs or what people are looking at now they're looking at that in the now they're looking at that in the now they're looking at that in the workplace because they're not finding workplace because they're not finding workplace because they're not finding that that that in politics you're actually getting in politics you're actually getting in politics you're actually getting workers you know pushing the people talk workers you know pushing the people talk workers you know pushing the people talk about the rise of the workers people about the rise of the workers people about the rise of the workers people just saying hang on a sec you know the just saying hang on a sec you know the just saying hang on a sec you know the most important space that I'm in right most important space that I'm in right most important space that I'm in right now now now is my workplace because that's where my is my workplace because that's where my is my workplace because that's where my benefits are from they're not coming benefits are from they're not coming benefits are from they're not coming from the state I mean that's the from the state I mean that's the from the state I mean that's the peculiarity of the United States system peculiarity of the United States system peculiarity of the United States system you know the Britain you've got the you know the Britain you've got the you know the Britain you've got the National Health Service and you've got National Health Service and you've got National Health Service and you've got all the kind of national wide benefits all the kind of national wide benefits all the kind of national wide benefits you know you're not Tethered to your you know you're not Tethered to your you know you're not Tethered to your employer like you are in the United employer like you are in the United employer like you are in the United States but here now we're asking people States but here now we're asking people States but here now we're asking people you know people are pushing you know people are pushing you know people are pushing for more representation they're asking for more representation they're asking for more representation they're asking to be represented within their workplace to be represented within their workplace to be represented within their workplace be it Starbucks where Boris deserve you be it Starbucks where Boris deserve you be it Starbucks where Boris deserve you know no the Starbucks employees are know no the Starbucks employees are know no the Starbucks employees are trying to unionize we have unions among trying to unionize we have unions among trying to unionize we have unions among our research assistants the bookings our research assistants the bookings our research assistants the bookings institution where I am you know kind of institution where I am you know kind of institution where I am you know kind of teaching assistants in big universities teaching assistants in big universities teaching assistants in big universities doing the same kind of thing as well doing the same kind of thing as well doing the same kind of thing as well because they won't have their boys heard because they won't have their boys heard because they won't have their boys heard they want to kind of play a larger role they want to kind of play a larger role they want to kind of play a larger role they want to have change and they're they want to have change and they're they want to have change and they're often pushing their companies or the often pushing their companies or the often pushing their companies or the institutions they work for to make that institutions they work for to make that institutions they work for to make that change because they don't see it change because they don't see it change because they don't see it happening happening happening um uh in the political sphere this is

um uh in the political sphere this is um uh in the political sphere this is not just enough to go out there and not just enough to go out there and not just enough to go out there and protest in the street but if you want protest in the street but if you want protest in the street but if you want something to happen that's why you're something to happen that's why you're something to happen that's why you're seeing big corporations playing a bigger seeing big corporations playing a bigger seeing big corporations playing a bigger role as well role as well role as well yeah and of course there's you know this yeah and of course there's you know this yeah and of course there's you know this is the longest discussion there's also is the longest discussion there's also is the longest discussion there's also criticisms of that mechanisms of unions criticisms of that mechanisms of unions criticisms of that mechanisms of unions that to achieve the giving of a voice to that to achieve the giving of a voice to that to achieve the giving of a voice to a people this goes back to my own a people this goes back to my own a people this goes back to my own experience growing up in northern experience growing up in northern experience growing up in northern England England England the Durham miners the Durham miners the Durham miners that I was part of for Generations you that I was part of for Generations you that I was part of for Generations you know first person in my family not in know first person in my family not in know first person in my family not in the mines on my dad's side the mines on my dad's side the mines on my dad's side um they created their own Association it um they created their own Association it um they created their own Association it wasn't a union person at the very wasn't a union person at the very wasn't a union person at the very beginning later they became part of the beginning later they became part of the beginning later they became part of the national minders Union they lost their national minders Union they lost their national minders Union they lost their autonomy and Independence as a result of autonomy and Independence as a result of autonomy and Independence as a result of that but what they did was they pulled that but what they did was they pulled that but what they did was they pulled their resources they set up their own their resources they set up their own their resources they set up their own Parliament so they could all get Parliament so they could all get Parliament so they could all get together literally they built a together literally they built a together literally they built a parliament and it you know opened in parliament and it you know opened in parliament and it you know opened in like the same time as World War one and like the same time as World War one and like the same time as World War one and where they all got together because they where they all got together because they where they all got together because they didn't have the vote they didn't have didn't have the vote they didn't have didn't have the vote they didn't have suffrage at the time because they didn't suffrage at the time because they didn't suffrage at the time because they didn't have any money you know so they didn't have any money you know so they didn't have any money you know so they didn't compare the tax and they you know they compare the tax and they you know they compare the tax and they you know they couldn't run for Parliament and this is couldn't run for Parliament and this is couldn't run for Parliament and this is you know the kind of the origins of the you know the kind of the origins of the you know the kind of the origins of the organized labor parties later but they organized labor parties later but they organized labor parties later but they create this Association so they could create this Association so they could create this Association so they could talk about how they could deal with talk about how they could deal with talk about how they could deal with things of their own communities and have things of their own communities and have things of their own communities and have a voice in the things that mattered you a voice in the things that mattered you a voice in the things that mattered you know education you know improving their know education you know improving their know education you know improving their work conditions it wasn't like what you work conditions it wasn't like what you work conditions it wasn't like what you think about some kind of like big think about some kind of like big think about some kind of like big political Trade union with you know political Trade union with you know political Trade union with you know left-wing you know kind of ideas in fact left-wing you know kind of ideas in fact left-wing you know kind of ideas in fact they actually tried to root out later they actually tried to root out later they actually tried to root out later after the Bolshevik Revolution in the after the Bolshevik Revolution in the after the Bolshevik Revolution in the Soviet Union even when they were still Soviet Union even when they were still Soviet Union even when they were still having ties with players like the minds having ties with players like the minds having ties with players like the minds of Don bass in the 1920s trotskyites and of Don bass in the 1920s trotskyites and of Don bass in the 1920s trotskyites and you know kind of londonists and you know you know kind of londonists and you know you know kind of londonists and you know Communists they were more focused on how

Communists they were more focused on how Communists they were more focused on how to improve their own well-being you know to improve their own well-being you know to improve their own well-being you know what they call the welfare they had some what they call the welfare they had some what they call the welfare they had some welfare societies where they were kind welfare societies where they were kind welfare societies where they were kind of trying to think and that's kind of of trying to think and that's kind of of trying to think and that's kind of what Baristas in Starbucks want or what Baristas in Starbucks want or what Baristas in Starbucks want or workers in Amazon they're talking about workers in Amazon they're talking about workers in Amazon they're talking about their own well-being it's not just about their own well-being it's not just about their own well-being it's not just about pay and work conditions it's about what pay and work conditions it's about what pay and work conditions it's about what it means to be part of this large entity it means to be part of this large entity it means to be part of this large entity because you're not feeling that same because you're not feeling that same because you're not feeling that same kind of connection kind of connection kind of connection to politics you know at the moment to politics you know at the moment to politics you know at the moment because you know you're being told by a because you know you're being told by a because you know you're being told by a representative sorry I don't represent representative sorry I don't represent representative sorry I don't represent you because you didn't vote for me you you because you didn't vote for me you you because you didn't vote for me you know if you're not a Democrat you're not know if you're not a Democrat you're not know if you're not a Democrat you're not Republican you're not red you know Republican you're not red you know Republican you're not red you know you're not blue you're not mine and so you're not blue you're not mine and so you're not blue you're not mine and so people are saying well I'm in this people are saying well I'm in this people are saying well I'm in this workplus this is kind of my Collective workplus this is kind of my Collective workplus this is kind of my Collective you know this is this is you know you know this is this is you know you know this is this is you know therefore this is what I'm gonna have to therefore this is what I'm gonna have to therefore this is what I'm gonna have to try to push to make change so I mean try to push to make change so I mean try to push to make change so I mean this is kind of happening here and we this is kind of happening here and we this is kind of happening here and we have to you know realize that you know have to you know realize that you know have to you know realize that you know we've kind of gone and we're full circle we've kind of gone and we're full circle we've kind of gone and we're full circle back to that you know kind of period of back to that you know kind of period of back to that you know kind of period of the early emergence of sort of mass the early emergence of sort of mass the early emergence of sort of mass labor and you know the way that that's labor and you know the way that that's labor and you know the way that that's where the political parties that we know where the political parties that we know where the political parties that we know today and you know the kind of early today and you know the kind of early today and you know the kind of early unions came out of as well this sort of unions came out of as well this sort of unions came out of as well this sort of feeling of a mass Society but where feeling of a mass Society but where feeling of a mass Society but where people weren't really able to people weren't really able to people weren't really able to get together and Implement uh or push get together and Implement uh or push get together and Implement uh or push for change you know with unions at a for change you know with unions at a for change you know with unions at a small scale and a local scale it's like small scale and a local scale it's like small scale and a local scale it's like every good idea every good idea every good idea on a small scale can become a bad idea on a small scale can become a bad idea on a small scale can become a bad idea in a large on a large scale so like uh in a large on a large scale so like uh in a large on a large scale so like uh marriage is a beautiful thing but at a marriage is a beautiful thing but at a marriage is a beautiful thing but at a large scale it becomes the marriage large scale it becomes the marriage large scale it becomes the marriage industrial complex that tries to make industrial complex that tries to make industrial complex that tries to make money off of it combined with the money off of it combined with the money off of it combined with the lawyers that try to make money off the

lawyers that try to make money off the lawyers that try to make money off the divorce uh it just becomes there you go divorce uh it just becomes there you go divorce uh it just becomes there you go caricature of a thing or like uh caricature of a thing or like uh caricature of a thing or like uh Christmas in the holidays it's like it's Christmas in the holidays it's like it's Christmas in the holidays it's like it's just I I don't disagree but what I'm just I I don't disagree but what I'm just I I don't disagree but what I'm saying is there's K-pop people are saying is there's K-pop people are saying is there's K-pop people are basically looking for something here and basically looking for something here and basically looking for something here and you know kind of this is why I mean I you know kind of this is why I mean I you know kind of this is why I mean I myself them start to think about much myself them start to think about much myself them start to think about much more local you know kind of solutions to more local you know kind of solutions to more local you know kind of solutions to a lot of these you know kind of problems a lot of these you know kind of problems a lot of these you know kind of problems it's again the teamed networked approach it's again the teamed networked approach it's again the teamed networked approach and the impeachment and the impeachment and the impeachment looking back because you're part of it looking back because you're part of it looking back because you're part of it you get the experience that do you think you get the experience that do you think you get the experience that do you think they strengthened or weakened this they strengthened or weakened this they strengthened or weakened this nation nation nation I think it weakened in many respects I think it weakened in many respects I think it weakened in many respects just the way that it was conducted I just the way that it was conducted I just the way that it was conducted I mean there's a new book coming out by a mean there's a new book coming out by a mean there's a new book coming out by a couple of journalists in the Washington couple of journalists in the Washington couple of journalists in the Washington Post I haven't actually seen it yet but Post I haven't actually seen it yet but Post I haven't actually seen it yet but I really did you know kind of worry that I really did you know kind of worry that I really did you know kind of worry that myself that it became a spectacle myself that it became a spectacle myself that it became a spectacle and although it actually I think in many and although it actually I think in many and although it actually I think in many respects was important in terms of an respects was important in terms of an respects was important in terms of an exercise of civic responsibility and you exercise of civic responsibility and you exercise of civic responsibility and you know give people a big massive lesson in know give people a big massive lesson in know give people a big massive lesson in Civics everyone's kind of running out Civics everyone's kind of running out Civics everyone's kind of running out and looking up the whole process of and looking up the whole process of and looking up the whole process of impeachment and what that meant and impeachment and what that meant and impeachment and what that meant and Congressional prerogatives I was as well Congressional prerogatives I was as well Congressional prerogatives I was as well I was you know like running off myself I was you know like running off myself I was you know like running off myself and you know trying to learn an enormous and you know trying to learn an enormous and you know trying to learn an enormous amount about it because I was in the amount about it because I was in the amount about it because I was in the middle of a lot of this middle of a lot of this middle of a lot of this that it didn't ultimately show that it didn't ultimately show that it didn't ultimately show responsibility and accountability responsibility and accountability responsibility and accountability and that in itself was kind of was and that in itself was kind of was and that in itself was kind of was weakened because weakened because weakened because on on you know both sides there was a on on you know both sides there was a on on you know both sides there was a lot of parties on politics lot of parties on politics lot of parties on politics uh I mean I think that there was a uh I mean I think that there was a uh I mean I think that there was a dereliction of Duty uh in many respects

dereliction of Duty uh in many respects dereliction of Duty uh in many respects I mean especially I have to say on the I mean especially I have to say on the I mean especially I have to say on the part of Republican members of Congress part of Republican members of Congress part of Republican members of Congress um who were you know kind of they should um who were you know kind of they should um who were you know kind of they should have been embracing you know congress's have been embracing you know congress's have been embracing you know congress's prerogatives you could have you know prerogatives you could have you know prerogatives you could have you know kind of basically done this in a in kind of basically done this in a in kind of basically done this in a in something of a different way but the something of a different way but the something of a different way but the whole thing is because it was this whole thing is because it was this whole thing is because it was this larger atmosphere of polarized I'm not larger atmosphere of polarized I'm not larger atmosphere of polarized I'm not even polarized fractured fractured even polarized fractured fractured even polarized fractured fractured politics and I was deeply disappointed I politics and I was deeply disappointed I politics and I was deeply disappointed I have to say and many of the members of have to say and many of the members of have to say and many of the members of Congress on uh the Republican side Congress on uh the Republican side Congress on uh the Republican side there's a lot of grandstanding that I there's a lot of grandstanding that I there's a lot of grandstanding that I really didn't like one bit on the really didn't like one bit on the really didn't like one bit on the Democratic side either and and not Democratic side either and and not Democratic side either and and not admitting to mistakes and you know not admitting to mistakes and you know not admitting to mistakes and you know not kind of addressing head-on you know the kind of addressing head-on you know the kind of addressing head-on you know the fact that they'd you know kind of been fact that they'd you know kind of been fact that they'd you know kind of been pushing for you know Trump to be pushing for you know Trump to be pushing for you know Trump to be impeached and you know talking about impeached and you know talking about impeached and you know talking about them and being an illegitimate president them and being an illegitimate president them and being an illegitimate president you know kind of right from the the very you know kind of right from the the very you know kind of right from the the very beginning and that you know as a result beginning and that you know as a result beginning and that you know as a result a lot of people just saw this this is a lot of people just saw this this is a lot of people just saw this this is kind of a continuation of you know kind of a continuation of you know kind of a continuation of you know political games you know coming out of political games you know coming out of political games you know coming out of uh the 2016 election but on the uh the 2016 election but on the uh the 2016 election but on the Republican side it was just a game there Republican side it was just a game there Republican side it was just a game there was people I knew who were you know was people I knew who were you know was people I knew who were you know being basically you know one point one being basically you know one point one being basically you know one point one of them winked at me you know in the of them winked at me you know in the of them winked at me you know in the middle of this you know kind of middle of this you know kind of middle of this you know kind of impeachment it's just like don't take impeachment it's just like don't take impeachment it's just like don't take this personally you know this is there's this personally you know this is there's this personally you know this is there's the game this is a game and I just the game this is a game and I just the game this is a game and I just thought this isn't a game and that's why thought this isn't a game and that's why thought this isn't a game and that's why I think that it you know kind of I think that it you know kind of I think that it you know kind of weakened because I mean again on the weakened because I mean again on the weakened because I mean again on the outside it it weakened us the whole outside it it weakened us the whole outside it it weakened us the whole process we can does in the eyes of the process we can does in the eyes of the process we can does in the eyes of the world because again the United States world because again the United States world because again the United States was the gold standard and I do think I was the gold standard and I do think I was the gold standard and I do think I mean again in the in the terms of the mean again in the in the terms of the mean again in the in the terms of the larger population although a lot of larger population although a lot of larger population although a lot of people you did actually see the system people you did actually see the system people you did actually see the system you know standing up trying to do you know standing up trying to do you know standing up trying to do something to help people account but

something to help people account but something to help people account but there's always that element of circus there's always that element of circus there's always that element of circus and a big political game and people and a big political game and people and a big political game and people being careless with the country but I do being careless with the country but I do being careless with the country but I do think that the Democrats think that the Democrats think that the Democrats were the instigators of the circus so as were the instigators of the circus so as were the instigators of the circus so as uh uh uh it's perhaps subtle but there's a it's perhaps subtle but there's a it's perhaps subtle but there's a there's a different way you talk about there's a different way you talk about there's a different way you talk about issues or concerns about accountability issues or concerns about accountability issues or concerns about accountability when you care about your country when when you care about your country when when you care about your country when you love your country when you love the you love your country when you love the you love your country when you love the ideals and when you uh versus when you ideals and when you uh versus when you ideals and when you uh versus when you just want to win and stick it to the just want to win and stick it to the just want to win and stick it to the other side I agree I mean there were other side I agree I mean there were other side I agree I mean there were people who um I actually thought managed people who um I actually thought managed people who um I actually thought managed that that made it about the country that that made it about the country that that made it about the country rather than about themselves rather than about themselves rather than about themselves yeah there were a lot of those who did a yeah there were a lot of those who did a yeah there were a lot of those who did a lot of grandstanding yeah and that's lot of grandstanding yeah and that's lot of grandstanding yeah and that's that's another problem of our political that's another problem of our political that's another problem of our political incentive structures the the kind of incentive structures the the kind of incentive structures the the kind of sense of accountability and sense of accountability and sense of accountability and responsibility tends to be personal you responsibility tends to be personal you responsibility tends to be personal you know people whether people decide to do know people whether people decide to do know people whether people decide to do it or not it's not institutional if that it or not it's not institutional if that it or not it's not institutional if that makes sense we've added kind of a makes sense we've added kind of a makes sense we've added kind of a breakdown of that kind of that sense now breakdown of that kind of that sense now breakdown of that kind of that sense now I took an oath of office and I'm I took an oath of office and I'm I took an oath of office and I'm assuming that most of them did too you assuming that most of them did too you assuming that most of them did too you know I had to be sworn in you know when know I had to be sworn in you know when know I had to be sworn in you know when I I took those positions I took that I I took those positions I took that I I took those positions I took that seriously but I already took an oath of seriously but I already took an oath of seriously but I already took an oath of citizenship there's you know presumably citizenship there's you know presumably citizenship there's you know presumably you did too you know you kind of started you did too you know you kind of started you did too you know you kind of started to become an American citizen it's not to become an American citizen it's not to become an American citizen it's not something you take on lightly something you take on lightly something you take on lightly and you know that's why I felt this deep and you know that's why I felt this deep and you know that's why I felt this deep sense of responsibility all the time sense of responsibility all the time sense of responsibility all the time which is why I went into the which is why I went into the which is why I went into the administration in the first place I mean administration in the first place I mean administration in the first place I mean I got a lot of flack for it because you I got a lot of flack for it because you I got a lot of flack for it because you know I thought well look I've been asked

know I thought well look I've been asked know I thought well look I've been asked and there's a real issue here after the and there's a real issue here after the and there's a real issue here after the Russian interference and you know the Russian interference and you know the Russian interference and you know the whole influence operation in the 2016 whole influence operation in the 2016 whole influence operation in the 2016 elections and I knew what was going on elections and I knew what was going on elections and I knew what was going on and I should do something and I should do something and I should do something you know if not me then you know okay you know if not me then you know okay you know if not me then you know okay someone else will go and do it but can I someone else will go and do it but can I someone else will go and do it but can I live with myself just sitting on the live with myself just sitting on the live with myself just sitting on the sidelines and criticizing what people sidelines and criticizing what people sidelines and criticizing what people are doing you know and kind of you know are doing you know and kind of you know are doing you know and kind of you know worrying about this or am I actually worrying about this or am I actually worrying about this or am I actually going to muck in there and you know just going to muck in there and you know just going to muck in there and you know just go and do something it's like seeing go and do something it's like seeing go and do something it's like seeing your house on fire and you see that you your house on fire and you see that you your house on fire and you see that you know okay this is pretty awful and know okay this is pretty awful and know okay this is pretty awful and dangerous but I could go in there and dangerous but I could go in there and dangerous but I could go in there and and do something and do something and do something to clarify the house on fire meaning to clarify the house on fire meaning to clarify the house on fire meaning the Cyber War that's going on or cyber the Cyber War that's going on or cyber the Cyber War that's going on or cyber attacks the Cyber City well in the 2016 attacks the Cyber City well in the 2016 attacks the Cyber City well in the 2016 you know when the Russians had you know when the Russians had you know when the Russians had interfered in the election you know I I interfered in the election you know I I interfered in the election you know I I mean basically this was a huge National mean basically this was a huge National mean basically this was a huge National Security crisis and our politics we've Security crisis and our politics we've Security crisis and our politics we've gone mad as a result of it and we in gone mad as a result of it and we in gone mad as a result of it and we in fact we were making the situation worse fact we were making the situation worse fact we were making the situation worse and I thought that I could you know kind and I thought that I could you know kind and I thought that I could you know kind of at the time but maybe I could do of at the time but maybe I could do of at the time but maybe I could do something here I could try to clarify I something here I could try to clarify I something here I could try to clarify I could you know work with others who I could you know work with others who I could you know work with others who I knew in the government from previous knew in the government from previous knew in the government from previous stints in the government to push back stints in the government to push back stints in the government to push back against this and try to make sure it against this and try to make sure it against this and try to make sure it didn't happen again and look and I also didn't happen again and look and I also didn't happen again and look and I also didn't have this you know mad you know didn't have this you know mad you know didn't have this you know mad you know kind of crazy ideological view of Russia kind of crazy ideological view of Russia kind of crazy ideological view of Russia either I mean I knew the players I knew either I mean I knew the players I knew either I mean I knew the players I knew the people I've been studying a long the people I've been studying a long the people I've been studying a long time and quite calm about it I don't time and quite calm about it I don't time and quite calm about it I don't take it personally it's not kind of an take it personally it's not kind of an take it personally it's not kind of an extension of self it's you know extension of self it's you know extension of self it's you know something I've spent a long time trying something I've spent a long time trying something I've spent a long time trying to understand for myself going back to to understand for myself going back to to understand for myself going back to that very beginning of my with the that very beginning of my with the that very beginning of my with the Russians trying to blow us up there must Russians trying to blow us up there must Russians trying to blow us up there must be an explanation there was it was a be an explanation there was it was a be an explanation there was it was a very complicated and complex explanation

very complicated and complex explanation very complicated and complex explanation it wasn't as simple as how it sounded it wasn't as simple as how it sounded it wasn't as simple as how it sounded and also there's a long tail to 2016 you and also there's a long tail to 2016 you and also there's a long tail to 2016 you know Putin's perceptions the kind of know Putin's perceptions the kind of know Putin's perceptions the kind of things that he thought were going on the things that he thought were going on the things that he thought were going on the the you know the whole way that the you know the whole way that the you know the whole way that what they did was actually fairly what they did was actually fairly what they did was actually fairly straightforward they've done this before straightforward they've done this before straightforward they've done this before in the Soviet period during the Cold War in the Soviet period during the Cold War in the Soviet period during the Cold War classic influence operation it just did classic influence operation it just did classic influence operation it just did gone beyond the bounds of anything they gone beyond the bounds of anything they gone beyond the bounds of anything they could have anticipated because of social could have anticipated because of social could have anticipated because of social media and just a Confluence of media and just a Confluence of media and just a Confluence of circumstances in the United States as circumstances in the United States as circumstances in the United States as well we were very fragile and vulnerable well we were very fragile and vulnerable well we were very fragile and vulnerable and I remember at one point having a and I remember at one point having a and I remember at one point having a discussion with the Russian ambassador discussion with the Russian ambassador discussion with the Russian ambassador where you know we were complaining about where you know we were complaining about where you know we were complaining about the Russian intervention he said are you the Russian intervention he said are you the Russian intervention he said are you telling me that the United States is a telling me that the United States is a telling me that the United States is a Banana Republic that it's so vulnerable Banana Republic that it's so vulnerable Banana Republic that it's so vulnerable to these kinds of efforts he actually to these kinds of efforts he actually to these kinds of efforts he actually looked genuinely mystified although I looked genuinely mystified although I looked genuinely mystified although I mean I'm obviously was probably you know mean I'm obviously was probably you know mean I'm obviously was probably you know part of a you know kind of political part of a you know kind of political part of a you know kind of political shtick there but he had a point the shtick there but he had a point the shtick there but he had a point the United States had never been that United States had never been that United States had never been that vulnerable as it suddenly was in 2016. vulnerable as it suddenly was in 2016. vulnerable as it suddenly was in 2016. and in the time that I was in government and in the time that I was in government and in the time that I was in government and going back to what you asked about and going back to what you asked about and going back to what you asked about the whole impeachment and the whole the whole impeachment and the whole the whole impeachment and the whole exercise in uh in Congress exercise in uh in Congress exercise in uh in Congress that vulnerability was as Stark as it that vulnerability was as Stark as it that vulnerability was as Stark as it you know ever could be our domestic you know ever could be our domestic you know ever could be our domestic politics were as much a part of the politics were as much a part of the politics were as much a part of the problem as anything else there were the problem as anything else there were the problem as anything else there were the kindling to all of the kind of the fires kindling to all of the kind of the fires kindling to all of the kind of the fires Putin didn't start any of this other Putin didn't start any of this other Putin didn't start any of this other kind of problems domestically just took kind of problems domestically just took kind of problems domestically just took advantage of them and you know basically advantage of them and you know basically advantage of them and you know basically added a bit of a next settlement here added a bit of a next settlement here added a bit of a next settlement here and there and there and there yeah the interference I mean that's a

yeah the interference I mean that's a yeah the interference I mean that's a much longer discussion much longer discussion much longer discussion because uh it's also for me technically because uh it's also for me technically because uh it's also for me technically fascinating fascinating fascinating um I've been playing with the idea of um I've been playing with the idea of um I've been playing with the idea of just launching like a million Bots but just launching like a million Bots but just launching like a million Bots but that are doing just positive stuff and that are doing just positive stuff and that are doing just positive stuff and just being kind yeah I was kind of just being kind yeah I was kind of just being kind yeah I was kind of wondering if is it possible to do wondering if is it possible to do wondering if is it possible to do something on this skill that's positive something on this skill that's positive something on this skill that's positive because you know a lot of people seem to because you know a lot of people seem to because you know a lot of people seem to be able to use all of this for pretty be able to use all of this for pretty be able to use all of this for pretty negative effect you've got to kind of negative effect you've got to kind of negative effect you've got to kind of hope that you could do this use the Sim hope that you could do this use the Sim hope that you could do this use the Sim networks for for positive effects I networks for for positive effects I networks for for positive effects I think that's actually where a lot of the think that's actually where a lot of the think that's actually where a lot of the war I think uh from the original hackers war I think uh from the original hackers war I think uh from the original hackers to today to today to today what gives people like me and I think a what gives people like me and I think a what gives people like me and I think a lot of people that in the hacking lot of people that in the hacking lot of people that in the hacking Community pleasure is to do something Community pleasure is to do something Community pleasure is to do something difficult break through the systems difficult break through the systems difficult break through the systems and uh do the ethical thing right so do and uh do the ethical thing right so do and uh do the ethical thing right so do the um because if there's something the um because if there's something the um because if there's something broken about the system you want to broken about the system you want to broken about the system you want to break through all the rules and do break through all the rules and do break through all the rules and do something that you know in your heart is something that you know in your heart is something that you know in your heart is the right thing to do I mean that's what the right thing to do I mean that's what the right thing to do I mean that's what um Aaron Schwartz did with the releasing um Aaron Schwartz did with the releasing um Aaron Schwartz did with the releasing journals and Publications that were journals and Publications that were journals and Publications that were behind pay walls to the public behind pay walls to the public behind pay walls to the public yeah but to me it's fascinating because yeah but to me it's fascinating because yeah but to me it's fascinating because I I maybe you can actually educate me I I maybe you can actually educate me I I maybe you can actually educate me but um but um but um I felt that the Russian interference I felt that the Russian interference I felt that the Russian interference in terms of social engineering in terms in terms of social engineering in terms in terms of social engineering in terms of bots all that kind of stuff I feel of bots all that kind of stuff I feel of bots all that kind of stuff I feel like there was more used for political like there was more used for political like there was more used for political bickering than to actually understand bickering than to actually understand bickering than to actually understand the national security problem because uh

the national security problem because uh the national security problem because uh I would like to know the actual numbers I would like to know the actual numbers I would like to know the actual numbers involved in the influence I would like involved in the influence I would like involved in the influence I would like to I mean obviously hopefully people Now to I mean obviously hopefully people Now to I mean obviously hopefully people Now understand that better that are trying understand that better that are trying understand that better that are trying to defend the National Security of this to defend the National Security of this to defend the National Security of this country but it just it felt like country but it just it felt like country but it just it felt like like for example if I launch one bot like for example if I launch one bot like for example if I launch one bot and then and then just contact somebody and then and then just contact somebody and then and then just contact somebody at the New York Times saying I launched at the New York Times saying I launched at the New York Times saying I launched this one bot they'll just say uh this one bot they'll just say uh this one bot they'll just say uh MIT MIT MIT scientists hacks you know and then scientists hacks you know and then scientists hacks you know and then well that's the spread but that's well that's the spread but that's well that's the spread but that's exactly what happened it was you know exactly what happened it was you know exactly what happened it was you know kind of I think that you know Putin and kind of I think that you know Putin and kind of I think that you know Putin and surround him surround him surround him understood because again propaganda understood because again propaganda understood because again propaganda State they spend an awful lot of time State they spend an awful lot of time State they spend an awful lot of time thinking about how you you know thinking about how you you know thinking about how you you know basically put out your own content and basically put out your own content and basically put out your own content and how you get maximum effect through how you get maximum effect through how you get maximum effect through performance Putin himself is a you know performance Putin himself is a you know performance Putin himself is a you know political pop performance artist I mean political pop performance artist I mean political pop performance artist I mean Trump understood exactly the same thing Trump understood exactly the same thing Trump understood exactly the same thing they were actually operating in parallel they were actually operating in parallel they were actually operating in parallel not in collusion but in parallel you not in collusion but in parallel you not in collusion but in parallel you know basically Trump understood how to know basically Trump understood how to know basically Trump understood how to get lots of free air time you know how get lots of free air time you know how get lots of free air time you know how to get himself a percentage of attention to get himself a percentage of attention to get himself a percentage of attention Putin you know did that through a kind Putin you know did that through a kind Putin you know did that through a kind of I think a less organic kind of way of I think a less organic kind of way of I think a less organic kind of way you know a lot of people working around you know a lot of people working around you know a lot of people working around him remember that's the old you know him remember that's the old you know him remember that's the old you know Bolshevik I did prop and you know kind Bolshevik I did prop and you know kind Bolshevik I did prop and you know kind of then the whole Soviet propaganda of then the whole Soviet propaganda of then the whole Soviet propaganda machine and you know Putin kind of machine and you know Putin kind of machine and you know Putin kind of growing up in that kind of environment growing up in that kind of environment growing up in that kind of environment and having you know the kind of the and having you know the kind of the and having you know the kind of the Kremlin press office and all the kind of Kremlin press office and all the kind of Kremlin press office and all the kind of people around him got kind of a massive people around him got kind of a massive people around him got kind of a massive machine knew how did that worked I mean machine knew how did that worked I mean machine knew how did that worked I mean they haven't done you know what the they haven't done you know what the they haven't done you know what the Chinese did in Russia it was like you Chinese did in Russia it was like you Chinese did in Russia it was like you know blocking everything and having a

know blocking everything and having a know blocking everything and having a big fire while it was kind of putting big fire while it was kind of putting big fire while it was kind of putting out lots of content getting into the you out lots of content getting into the you out lots of content getting into the you know the sort of center of attention know the sort of center of attention know the sort of center of attention Trump's doing the same kind of thing and Trump's doing the same kind of thing and Trump's doing the same kind of thing and the Russians understood that you know if the Russians understood that you know if the Russians understood that you know if you put a bit of things out there and you put a bit of things out there and you put a bit of things out there and then you call up the New York Times and then you call up the New York Times and then you call up the New York Times and people are going to run with it and what people are going to run with it and what people are going to run with it and what they wanted was the perception that they they wanted was the perception that they they wanted was the perception that they had actually sweared the election they had actually sweared the election they had actually sweared the election they loved it this was the huge mistake of loved it this was the huge mistake of loved it this was the huge mistake of the Democrats and everything and I kept the Democrats and everything and I kept the Democrats and everything and I kept trying to push against this no they did trying to push against this no they did trying to push against this no they did not elect Donald Trump Americans elected not elect Donald Trump Americans elected not elect Donald Trump Americans elected uh Donald Trump and you know the uh Donald Trump and you know the uh Donald Trump and you know the Electoral College was a key part Electoral College was a key part Electoral College was a key part Vladimir Putin didn't make that up Vladimir Putin didn't make that up Vladimir Putin didn't make that up you know and basically I also remember you know and basically I also remember you know and basically I also remember um you know at one point the um Russian um you know at one point the um Russian um you know at one point the um Russian Ambassador you know talking to me about Ambassador you know talking to me about Ambassador you know talking to me about when we were doing the standard you know when we were doing the standard you know when we were doing the standard you know here we are we're lodging our complaint here we are we're lodging our complaint here we are we're lodging our complaint about the interference you know he about the interference you know he about the interference you know he didn't he basically said well we didn't didn't he basically said well we didn't didn't he basically said well we didn't you know kind of invent Comey and you you know kind of invent Comey and you you know kind of invent Comey and you know basically the you know the decision know basically the you know the decision know basically the you know the decision to reopen you know Hillary Clinton's to reopen you know Hillary Clinton's to reopen you know Hillary Clinton's emails or you know kind of uh Anthony emails or you know kind of uh Anthony emails or you know kind of uh Anthony Weiner and you know kind of his Weiner and you know kind of his Weiner and you know kind of his um you know emails on uh his uh computer um you know emails on uh his uh computer um you know emails on uh his uh computer and I was like yeah and I was like yeah and I was like yeah he's right I mean you know there were he's right I mean you know there were he's right I mean you know there were plenty of things in our own system that plenty of things in our own system that plenty of things in our own system that created chaos and tipped the election created chaos and tipped the election created chaos and tipped the election not you know kind of what the Russians not you know kind of what the Russians not you know kind of what the Russians did but you know it's obviously easier did but you know it's obviously easier did but you know it's obviously easier to blame the Russians and blame yourself to blame the Russians and blame yourself to blame the Russians and blame yourself when you know things are kind of oh oh when you know things are kind of oh oh when you know things are kind of oh oh those random forces and those random those random forces and those random those random forces and those random factors because people couldn't factors because people couldn't factors because people couldn't understand what had happened understand what had happened understand what had happened in 2016 there was no hanging Chads like in 2016 there was no hanging Chads like in 2016 there was no hanging Chads like 2000 where there was you know kind of a

2000 where there was you know kind of a 2000 where there was you know kind of a technical uh problem that actually you technical uh problem that actually you technical uh problem that actually you know ended up with the intervention the know ended up with the intervention the know ended up with the intervention the Supreme Court There Was You Know pure Supreme Court There Was You Know pure Supreme Court There Was You Know pure and simple the Electoral College at work and simple the Electoral College at work and simple the Electoral College at work and a candidate that nobody expected and a candidate that nobody expected and a candidate that nobody expected including the Republicans in the including the Republicans in the including the Republicans in the primaries you know to end up getting primaries you know to end up getting primaries you know to end up getting kind of elected or put forward in a kind of elected or put forward in a kind of elected or put forward in a different 2016 suddenly becoming the different 2016 suddenly becoming the different 2016 suddenly becoming the president and they needed a meta president and they needed a meta president and they needed a meta explanation it was much better to say explanation it was much better to say explanation it was much better to say Vladimir Putin had done it and Vladimir Vladimir Putin had done it and Vladimir Vladimir Putin had done it and Vladimir Putin had been other Kremlin guys were Putin had been other Kremlin guys were Putin had been other Kremlin guys were like oh my God yeah fantastic champagne like oh my God yeah fantastic champagne like oh my God yeah fantastic champagne Cox popping this is great our Chaos Cox popping this is great our Chaos Cox popping this is great our Chaos Agent they knew they hadn't done it but Agent they knew they hadn't done it but Agent they knew they hadn't done it but they'd love to take credit for it and so they'd love to take credit for it and so they'd love to take credit for it and so you know the very fact that other people you know the very fact that other people you know the very fact that other people couldn't explain these complex dynamics couldn't explain these complex dynamics couldn't explain these complex dynamics of themselves of themselves of themselves basically dovetails beautifully with basically dovetails beautifully with basically dovetails beautifully with Vladimir Putin's Vladimir Putin's Vladimir Putin's uh attempts to be the kind of the uh attempts to be the kind of the uh attempts to be the kind of the Kremlin Gremlin in the system Kremlin Gremlin in the system Kremlin Gremlin in the system and he's you know basically was taking and he's you know basically was taking and he's you know basically was taking advantage of that forevermore and I advantage of that forevermore and I advantage of that forevermore and I wanted you know to basically try to wanted you know to basically try to wanted you know to basically try to work with us to cut through that and the work with us to cut through that and the work with us to cut through that and the thing is then you know people lost faith thing is then you know people lost faith thing is then you know people lost faith in the Integrity of the election system in the Integrity of the election system in the Integrity of the election system because people were out there you know because people were out there you know because people were out there you know suggesting that the Russians had suggesting that the Russians had suggesting that the Russians had actually distorted the elections people actually distorted the elections people actually distorted the elections people written books about that they said you written books about that they said you written books about that they said you know that they hacked the system when know that they hacked the system when know that they hacked the system when you know they were trying to hack our you know they were trying to hack our you know they were trying to hack our minds but again we were the fertile soul minds but again we were the fertile soul minds but again we were the fertile soul for this I mean we know this from for this I mean we know this from for this I mean we know this from Russian history the role the Bolsheviks Russian history the role the Bolsheviks Russian history the role the Bolsheviks you know the the whole you know the the whole you know the the whole 1920s and 1930s with Stalin the fellow 1920s and 1930s with Stalin the fellow 1920s and 1930s with Stalin the fellow Travelers and the you know socialist you Travelers and the you know socialist you Travelers and the you know socialist you know International I mean the Russians know International I mean the Russians know International I mean the Russians and the Soviets have been at this for and the Soviets have been at this for and the Soviets have been at this for years about kind of pulling you know years about kind of pulling you know years about kind of pulling you know kind of people along and into kind of a

kind of people along and into kind of a kind of people along and into kind of a broader friend but it didn't mean broader friend but it didn't mean broader friend but it didn't mean that they were influencing you know that they were influencing you know that they were influencing you know directly the politics of of countries directly the politics of of countries directly the politics of of countries you know writ large the plenty of you know writ large the plenty of you know writ large the plenty of interventions it's just that we were interventions it's just that we were interventions it's just that we were somehow it was like it was a Confluence somehow it was like it was a Confluence somehow it was like it was a Confluence of event a perfect storm We Were Somehow of event a perfect storm We Were Somehow of event a perfect storm We Were Somehow exquisitely vulnerable because of things exquisitely vulnerable because of things exquisitely vulnerable because of things that we had done to ourselves it was that we had done to ourselves it was that we had done to ourselves it was what Americans were doing to themselves what Americans were doing to themselves what Americans were doing to themselves that was the issue you think that's the that was the issue you think that's the that was the issue you think that's the bigger threat than large-scale bought bigger threat than large-scale bought bigger threat than large-scale bought armies armies armies those can be as well obviously they do those can be as well obviously they do those can be as well obviously they do have an impact but it's it's how people have an impact but it's it's how people have an impact but it's it's how people process information it's kind of like process information it's kind of like process information it's kind of like the lack of critical thinking I'm just the lack of critical thinking I'm just the lack of critical thinking I'm just not on the internet to that extent I'm not on the internet to that extent I'm not on the internet to that extent I'm going looking for information I'm not on going looking for information I'm not on going looking for information I'm not on social media I'm into social media but social media I'm into social media but social media I'm into social media but not by myself you know I don't put not by myself you know I don't put not by myself you know I don't put myself out there I'm not I've got a myself out there I'm not I've got a myself out there I'm not I've got a Twitter feeder you don't have a Twitter Twitter feeder you don't have a Twitter Twitter feeder you don't have a Twitter one yeah but there is one yeah but there is one yeah but there is you know I have all kinds of strange you know I have all kinds of strange you know I have all kinds of strange things it's feeling Health cup which I things it's feeling Health cup which I things it's feeling Health cup which I kind of like you know occasionally have kind of like you know occasionally have kind of like you know occasionally have people send things to me so many fans people send things to me so many fans people send things to me so many fans it's hilarious but what I what I what I it's hilarious but what I what I what I it's hilarious but what I what I what I try to do is just be really critical I try to do is just be really critical I try to do is just be really critical I mean my you know my mum sends me stuff mean my you know my mum sends me stuff mean my you know my mum sends me stuff like what is this yeah like what is this yeah like what is this yeah it's just you know your own mother can it's just you know your own mother can it's just you know your own mother can be as much of an agent of misinformation be as much of an agent of misinformation be as much of an agent of misinformation as you know kind of Vladimir Putin oh as you know kind of Vladimir Putin oh as you know kind of Vladimir Putin oh yeah I mean we're all you know kind of yeah I mean we're all you know kind of yeah I mean we're all you know kind of we all have to really think about what we all have to really think about what we all have to really think about what it is we're reading there's one thing it is we're reading there's one thing it is we're reading there's one thing for my childhood that was really for my childhood that was really for my childhood that was really important I mean I always think every important I mean I always think every important I mean I always think every kid in school should have this my next kid in school should have this my next kid in school should have this my next door neighbor door neighbor door neighbor um who were was um he was actually very um who were was um he was actually very um who were was um he was actually very active in the in the labor party and he

active in the in the labor party and he active in the in the labor party and he was you know kind of really interested was you know kind of really interested was you know kind of really interested in the way that opinion you know shaped in the way that opinion you know shaped in the way that opinion you know shaped people's political views and he was well people's political views and he was well people's political views and he was well she was a native Welsh speaker so you she was a native Welsh speaker so you she was a native Welsh speaker so you know he was always trying to explore know he was always trying to explore know he was always trying to explore English and how you know there was kind English and how you know there was kind English and how you know there was kind of the reach of you know the English of the reach of you know the English of the reach of you know the English culture and you know kind of How It's culture and you know kind of How It's culture and you know kind of How It's kind of shaping the way that people kind of shaping the way that people kind of shaping the way that people thought and he used to read every single thought and he used to read every single thought and he used to read every single newspaper you know from all the newspaper you know from all the newspaper you know from all the different spectrums which is quite easy different spectrums which is quite easy different spectrums which is quite easy to do you know back in the 70s and 80s to do you know back in the 70s and 80s to do you know back in the 70s and 80s because there weren't that many in the because there weren't that many in the because there weren't that many in the UK context and every Sunday would get UK context and every Sunday would get UK context and every Sunday would get all the different Sunday papers from all all the different Sunday papers from all all the different Sunday papers from all the different kind of ideological the different kind of ideological the different kind of ideological Vantage points and then when I got to be Vantage points and then when I got to be Vantage points and then when I got to be a teenager he'd invite me to look at a teenager he'd invite me to look at a teenager he'd invite me to look at them with him them with him them with him because it was my godfather and he was because it was my godfather and he was because it was my godfather and he was just an incredible guy and he was just just an incredible guy and he was just just an incredible guy and he was just super interesting and you know kind of super interesting and you know kind of super interesting and you know kind of culturally you know an outsider always culturally you know an outsider always culturally you know an outsider always kind of looking in and he basically runs kind of looking in and he basically runs kind of looking in and he basically runs through you know what the guardian through you know what the guardian through you know what the guardian looked at the Observer The Daily Mail looked at the Observer The Daily Mail looked at the Observer The Daily Mail the sun you know kind of all of these the sun you know kind of all of these the sun you know kind of all of these you know the telegraph all of these you know the telegraph all of these you know the telegraph all of these newspapers and how you could tell you newspapers and how you could tell you newspapers and how you could tell you know their different Vantage points and know their different Vantage points and know their different Vantage points and of course it's complicated to do that of course it's complicated to do that of course it's complicated to do that now I mean in this you know incredibly now I mean in this you know incredibly now I mean in this you know incredibly extensive media space I look at what it extensive media space I look at what it extensive media space I look at what it is that they're saying and then I tried is that they're saying and then I tried is that they're saying and then I tried to you know read around it and then you to you know read around it and then you to you know read around it and then you know look at what other people are know look at what other people are know look at what other people are saying and why they're saying it and who saying and why they're saying it and who saying and why they're saying it and who are they what's their context and that are they what's their context and that are they what's their context and that was kind of busy what I was taught to was kind of busy what I was taught to was kind of busy what I was taught to look at and and I think everybody should look at and and I think everybody should look at and and I think everybody should have that and certainly that's something have that and certainly that's something have that and certainly that's something that people in politics that are in that people in politics that are in that people in politics that are in charge of directing policy should should charge of directing policy should should charge of directing policy should should be doing they should be not getting lost be doing they should be not getting lost be doing they should be not getting lost in uh in uh in uh in the sort of the hysteria that can be

in the sort of the hysteria that can be in the sort of the hysteria that can be created like it does seem that the created like it does seem that the created like it does seem that the American system somehow not the American system somehow not the American system somehow not the political system just humans love drama political system just humans love drama political system just humans love drama we're very good like the hunter Biden we're very good like the hunter Biden we're very good like the hunter Biden laptop Story We there's always like one laptop Story We there's always like one laptop Story We there's always like one two three stories somehow that we just two three stories somehow that we just two three stories somehow that we just pick that we're just gonna this is the pick that we're just gonna this is the pick that we're just gonna this is the stuff we're gonna stuff we're gonna stuff we're gonna fight about fight about fight about for this election and everyone's got an for this election and everyone's got an for this election and everyone's got an opinion on it everybody yeah yeah opinion on it everybody yeah yeah opinion on it everybody yeah yeah exactly and it's the most important like exactly and it's the most important like exactly and it's the most important like Hillary Clinton's emails Russians packed Hillary Clinton's emails Russians packed Hillary Clinton's emails Russians packed the election yeah we had John podesta's the election yeah we had John podesta's the election yeah we had John podesta's pasta recipes for a while you know that pasta recipes for a while you know that pasta recipes for a while you know that we were kind of all obsessing over I we were kind of all obsessing over I we were kind of all obsessing over I don't know people running out and trying don't know people running out and trying don't know people running out and trying them out you know something like that them out you know something like that them out you know something like that and there's fun uh I mean there's all and there's fun uh I mean there's all and there's fun uh I mean there's all the best conspiracy theories about the best conspiracy theories about the best conspiracy theories about Giuliani there's I just love it we just Giuliani there's I just love it we just Giuliani there's I just love it we just pick a random story sometimes it's pick a random story sometimes it's pick a random story sometimes it's ridiculous and it detracts from what the ridiculous and it detracts from what the ridiculous and it detracts from what the larger question should be which is about larger question should be which is about larger question should be which is about the family members of you know senior the family members of you know senior the family members of you know senior officials and mothers they should be officials and mothers they should be officials and mothers they should be anywhere near any of the issues that anywhere near any of the issues that anywhere near any of the issues that they're you know there's ethics there's they're you know there's ethics there's they're you know there's ethics there's government ethics and things there you government ethics and things there you government ethics and things there you know kind of across the ball but there's know kind of across the ball but there's know kind of across the ball but there's a bigger story in there but that becomes a bigger story in there but that becomes a bigger story in there but that becomes a distraction it's a look over there you a distraction it's a look over there you a distraction it's a look over there you know the oldest trick in the book you know the oldest trick in the book you know the oldest trick in the book you know kind of idea know kind of idea know kind of idea yes politicians are really good at that yes politicians are really good at that yes politicians are really good at that because it detects from the larger because it detects from the larger because it detects from the larger question because every single member of question because every single member of question because every single member of Congress and you know government Congress and you know government Congress and you know government official their family should be nowhere official their family should be nowhere official their family should be nowhere near anything they're doing near anything they're doing near anything they're doing well that I could push back and disagree well that I could push back and disagree well that I could push back and disagree on I I mean well it depends on what they on I I mean well it depends on what they on I I mean well it depends on what they did if they're making money out of it did if they're making money out of it did if they're making money out of it you know and kind of basically being in you know and kind of basically being in you know and kind of basically being in business is what I mean you know if this

business is what I mean you know if this business is what I mean you know if this is a this is is a this is is a this is so it's not you know Hunter Biden on his so it's not you know Hunter Biden on his so it's not you know Hunter Biden on his own it's you know kind of basically the own it's you know kind of basically the own it's you know kind of basically the kids of you know the Trump family the kids of you know the Trump family the kids of you know the Trump family the bitter you name it yeah in general like bitter you name it yeah in general like bitter you name it yeah in general like that I just think that I just think that I just think it's funny like there's a lot of it's funny like there's a lot of it's funny like there's a lot of families that families that families that you know they work very closely together you know they work very closely together you know they work very closely together do business together it's very do business together it's very do business together it's very successful I get very weird about that successful I get very weird about that successful I get very weird about that it it just feels like you're not in fact it it just feels like you're not in fact it it just feels like you're not in fact I don't even like hiring or working with I don't even like hiring or working with I don't even like hiring or working with friends friends friends uh initially you make friends with the uh initially you make friends with the uh initially you make friends with the people you work with that's right no I people you work with that's right no I people you work with that's right no I have to I have the same worries as well have to I have the same worries as well have to I have the same worries as well because it kind of clouds you know I because it kind of clouds you know I because it kind of clouds you know I would encourage you know my daughter to would encourage you know my daughter to would encourage you know my daughter to do something completely different right do something completely different right do something completely different right not going to the same field now look not going to the same field now look not going to the same field now look it's different if you're you know in it's different if you're you know in it's different if you're you know in science or you know mathematics or science or you know mathematics or science or you know mathematics or something like this and you know maybe something like this and you know maybe something like this and you know maybe you know kind of you've got a family you know kind of you've got a family you know kind of you've got a family member you're kind of building on some member you're kind of building on some member you're kind of building on some of their theories and ideas you know if of their theories and ideas you know if of their theories and ideas you know if Albert Einstein had a you know kind of Albert Einstein had a you know kind of Albert Einstein had a you know kind of an offspring it was a mathematics and an offspring it was a mathematics and an offspring it was a mathematics and took you know his father's thinking you took you know his father's thinking you took you know his father's thinking you know further that would be very know further that would be very know further that would be very different but if it's you know kind of different but if it's you know kind of different but if it's you know kind of you're in business and other things and you're in business and other things and you're in business and other things and it's just you know it's the nepotism it's just you know it's the nepotism it's just you know it's the nepotism problem that you know one has there well problem that you know one has there well problem that you know one has there well it says that too yeah that's what they it says that too yeah that's what they it says that too yeah that's what they do if they're not people aren't coming do if they're not people aren't coming do if they're not people aren't coming and building on the ideas in a and building on the ideas in a and building on the ideas in a constructive web right but even for son constructive web right but even for son constructive web right but even for son daughter of Einstein You want to think daughter of Einstein You want to think daughter of Einstein You want to think outside the box of the previous person outside the box of the previous person outside the box of the previous person I'm meaning but I mean it's just but I'm meaning but I mean it's just but I'm meaning but I mean it's just but they shouldn't be sort of told no sorry they shouldn't be sort of told no sorry they shouldn't be sort of told no sorry you can't go and study math because you you can't go and study math because you you can't go and study math because you know whatever physics you know because know whatever physics you know because know whatever physics you know because of but a lot of that you can't actually of but a lot of that you can't actually of but a lot of that you can't actually make it into law well you could I

make it into law well you could I make it into law well you could I suppose but honestly if you do that kind suppose but honestly if you do that kind suppose but honestly if you do that kind of thing you should be transparent there of thing you should be transparent there of thing you should be transparent there should be just an honesty body it gets should be just an honesty body it gets should be just an honesty body it gets back to what I was talking about before back to what I was talking about before back to what I was talking about before we need diversity of views and diversity we need diversity of views and diversity we need diversity of views and diversity of thinking and you can't have other of thinking and you can't have other of thinking and you can't have other things just like being partisan or you things just like being partisan or you things just like being partisan or you know uh know uh know uh rooting just for a team you know if rooting just for a team you know if rooting just for a team you know if something's going to Cloud your judgment something's going to Cloud your judgment something's going to Cloud your judgment or a constrain the way you think about or a constrain the way you think about or a constrain the way you think about things and become you know kind of a things and become you know kind of a things and become you know kind of a barrier to moving on out look that's barrier to moving on out look that's barrier to moving on out look that's what we see in the system around Putin what we see in the system around Putin what we see in the system around Putin it's kind of kleptocratic and it's uh it's kind of kleptocratic and it's uh it's kind of kleptocratic and it's uh you know it's filled with nepotism all you know it's filled with nepotism all you know it's filled with nepotism all of the kind of like the people who you of the kind of like the people who you of the kind of like the people who you kind of see out there in prominent kind of see out there in prominent kind of see out there in prominent positions of the sons or Daughters of positions of the sons or Daughters of positions of the sons or Daughters of including a Putin himself I mean that's including a Putin himself I mean that's including a Putin himself I mean that's when a system has degenerated and that's when a system has degenerated and that's when a system has degenerated and that's going to kind of and I suppose in a way going to kind of and I suppose in a way going to kind of and I suppose in a way this is a symbol of the degeneration of this is a symbol of the degeneration of this is a symbol of the degeneration of the system but again it's just a the system but again it's just a the system but again it's just a diversion from you know kind of the diversion from you know kind of the diversion from you know kind of the bigger issues and bigger implications of bigger issues and bigger implications of bigger issues and bigger implications of things that we're discussing things that we're discussing things that we're discussing so Critics on the left often use the so Critics on the left often use the so Critics on the left often use the straw man of TDS Trump derangement straw man of TDS Trump derangement straw man of TDS Trump derangement syndrome syndrome syndrome uh why does Donald Trump arouse so much uh why does Donald Trump arouse so much uh why does Donald Trump arouse so much emotion in people emotion in people emotion in people it's just the nature of the person I it's just the nature of the person I it's just the nature of the person I mean I don't feel particularly emotional mean I don't feel particularly emotional mean I don't feel particularly emotional about him about him about him um I mean he's kind of a um I mean he's kind of a um I mean he's kind of a he's a very flawed guy to be honest on he's a very flawed guy to be honest on he's a very flawed guy to be honest on this may seem bizarre I felt sorry for this may seem bizarre I felt sorry for this may seem bizarre I felt sorry for him him him because this guy is so vulnerable because this guy is so vulnerable because this guy is so vulnerable so wrapped upon himself so wrapped upon himself so wrapped upon himself that that I mean he's just exquisitely that that I mean he's just exquisitely that that I mean he's just exquisitely open to manipulation and I saw people open to manipulation and I saw people open to manipulation and I saw people taking advantage of him all the time he

taking advantage of him all the time he taking advantage of him all the time he has zero self-awareness has zero self-awareness has zero self-awareness I mean I kept thinking to myself my God I mean I kept thinking to myself my God I mean I kept thinking to myself my God if this guy didn't have this Entourage if this guy didn't have this Entourage if this guy didn't have this Entourage around him how would he function around him how would he function around him how would he function I mean I felt sorry for us as well I I mean I felt sorry for us as well I I mean I felt sorry for us as well I mean that he ended up being our mean that he ended up being our mean that he ended up being our President because that should not have President because that should not have President because that should not have happened I mean in terms of character happened I mean in terms of character happened I mean in terms of character and in terms of fit for fit for the job and in terms of fit for fit for the job and in terms of fit for fit for the job although I saw this you know kind of although I saw this you know kind of although I saw this you know kind of over a period of time but I didn't feel over a period of time but I didn't feel over a period of time but I didn't feel you know kind of you know kind of you know kind of any you know any you know any you know ah ah ah sense of derangement you know kind of sense of derangement you know kind of sense of derangement you know kind of around him I didn't drive me nuts in around him I didn't drive me nuts in around him I didn't drive me nuts in that way I just became I was just very that way I just became I was just very that way I just became I was just very worried about you know the kind of the worried about you know the kind of the worried about you know the kind of the impact that he was having on on many impact that he was having on on many impact that he was having on on many particular issues here's the important particular issues here's the important particular issues here's the important thing so what I noticed that people that thing so what I noticed that people that thing so what I noticed that people that criticized Donald Trump criticized Donald Trump criticized Donald Trump is they get caught up in the momentum of is they get caught up in the momentum of is they get caught up in the momentum of it and they're unable to see it and they're unable to see it and they're unable to see um um um first of all let's start with some first of all let's start with some first of all let's start with some ground truth which is ground truth which is ground truth which is approximately approximately approximately half the country voted for the guy half the country voted for the guy half the country voted for the guy right yep and more voted in 2020 than right yep and more voted in 2020 than right yep and more voted in 2020 than voted in 2016. yeah voted in 2016. yeah voted in 2016. yeah and I I just I just feel like people and I I just I just feel like people and I I just I just feel like people don't load that in when they're honestly don't load that in when they're honestly don't load that in when they're honestly a lot of those people a lot of those people a lot of those people didn't vote for didn't vote for didn't vote for him and his personality and often first time and second time first time and second time and they could disassociate and they could disassociate and they could disassociate you know kind of the all of the kind of you know kind of the all of the kind of you know kind of the all of the kind of features of Donald Trump that drives features of Donald Trump that drives features of Donald Trump that drives other people nuts from you know what

other people nuts from you know what other people nuts from you know what they thought that an actual fact he they thought that an actual fact he they thought that an actual fact he could achieve in terms of it wasn't just could achieve in terms of it wasn't just could achieve in terms of it wasn't just this kind of sense about well I couldn't this kind of sense about well I couldn't this kind of sense about well I couldn't possibly vote for Democrats sometimes possibly vote for Democrats sometimes possibly vote for Democrats sometimes it's just like well look you shake it's just like well look you shake it's just like well look you shake things up and we need things to check to things up and we need things to check to things up and we need things to check to be shoken up and um some people might be shoken up and um some people might be shoken up and um some people might have voted them for personality see this have voted them for personality see this have voted them for personality see this one yeah some of them know some of them one yeah some of them know some of them one yeah some of them know some of them did as well but I'm just saying that not did as well but I'm just saying that not did as well but I'm just saying that not all of them did either that's the thing all of them did either that's the thing all of them did either that's the thing but yeah I can't say I'm just I'm just but yeah I can't say I'm just I'm just but yeah I can't say I'm just I'm just saying anecdotally I know people have saying anecdotally I know people have saying anecdotally I know people have voted me because he's him from the voted me because he's him from the voted me because he's him from the Charisma and and others who wrote it Charisma and and others who wrote it Charisma and and others who wrote it because he's shaking things up and you because he's shaking things up and you because he's shaking things up and you know he's keeping people on their toes know he's keeping people on their toes know he's keeping people on their toes and you know kind of we need that you and you know kind of we need that you and you know kind of we need that you know idea but the way to avoid Trump know idea but the way to avoid Trump know idea but the way to avoid Trump derangement syndrome to me me as a derangement syndrome to me me as a derangement syndrome to me me as a doctor I'm sort of prescribing to the doctor I'm sort of prescribing to the doctor I'm sort of prescribing to the patients uh on this syndrome this uh patients uh on this syndrome this uh patients uh on this syndrome this uh this issue is I feel like you have to this issue is I feel like you have to this issue is I feel like you have to empathize empathize empathize with the people you have to imagine your with the people you have to imagine your with the people you have to imagine your mind all the different like um mind all the different like um mind all the different like um strengths that the people who have voted strengths that the people who have voted strengths that the people who have voted for Donald Trump see for Donald Trump see for Donald Trump see and really understand it really feel it and really understand it really feel it and really understand it really feel it like walk around with it and then like walk around with it and then like walk around with it and then criticize like I just feel like people criticize like I just feel like people criticize like I just feel like people get lost in this bubble of criticism in get lost in this bubble of criticism in get lost in this bubble of criticism in their own head I don't forget like the their own head I don't forget like the their own head I don't forget like the tribe you're in or whatever in their own tribe you're in or whatever in their own tribe you're in or whatever in their own head they're not able to see like half head they're not able to see like half head they're not able to see like half this country that we're a part of voted this country that we're a part of voted this country that we're a part of voted for the person same with Biden half the for the person same with Biden half the for the person same with Biden half the country voted for the guy the people country voted for the guy the people country voted for the guy the people that are criticizing Biden and they're that are criticizing Biden and they're that are criticizing Biden and they're doing this the way Biden is currently

doing this the way Biden is currently doing this the way Biden is currently criticized criticized criticized is not based on policy is not based on policy is not based on policy uh is based on personal stuff similar uh is based on personal stuff similar uh is based on personal stuff similar like to Trump yeah I know it is I mean like to Trump yeah I know it is I mean like to Trump yeah I know it is I mean that's what people do look I think part that's what people do look I think part that's what people do look I think part of that is of that is of that is I mean I look at first of all I want to I mean I look at first of all I want to I mean I look at first of all I want to say I completely agree with you about say I completely agree with you about say I completely agree with you about understanding my own people are coming understanding my own people are coming understanding my own people are coming from and I think it's very important for from and I think it's very important for from and I think it's very important for people to listen to other people and people to listen to other people and people to listen to other people and their views I try to do that all the their views I try to do that all the their views I try to do that all the time try to learn from that you know I time try to learn from that you know I time try to learn from that you know I mean everybody's got a a perspective and mean everybody's got a a perspective and mean everybody's got a a perspective and a context we all live in a certain a context we all live in a certain a context we all live in a certain context we're all living in history our context we're all living in history our context we're all living in history our own personal histories matter a lot and own personal histories matter a lot and own personal histories matter a lot and also the larger context the environment also the larger context the environment also the larger context the environment in which we're living in and where we in which we're living in and where we in which we're living in and where we live and who we live with and you know live and who we live with and you know live and who we live with and you know the kinds of lives that we lead as well the kinds of lives that we lead as well the kinds of lives that we lead as well those are all extraordinarily important those are all extraordinarily important those are all extraordinarily important I mean I know that from you know myself I mean I know that from you know myself I mean I know that from you know myself everything you know that I've done in my everything you know that I've done in my everything you know that I've done in my life has been shipped by where I came life has been shipped by where I came life has been shipped by where I came from who I was my family and the way from who I was my family and the way from who I was my family and the way that we looked at things you can't take that we looked at things you can't take that we looked at things you can't take yourself out of that I mean you can do yourself out of that I mean you can do yourself out of that I mean you can do it in some you know like a science or it in some you know like a science or it in some you know like a science or something else but you know it's still something else but you know it's still something else but you know it's still your own views and maybe some of the your own views and maybe some of the your own views and maybe some of the ideas that you have and pursuing an ideas that you have and pursuing an ideas that you have and pursuing an experiment might have been shipped by experiment might have been shipped by experiment might have been shipped by your larger context you know depending your larger context you know depending your larger context you know depending on what it is that you work on but the on what it is that you work on but the on what it is that you work on but the other thing is the niche of the other thing is the niche of the other thing is the niche of the political system political system political system the presidential election is like the presidential election is like the presidential election is like a personality contest a beauty contest a personality contest a beauty contest a personality contest a beauty contest it's like a kind of a referendum on you it's like a kind of a referendum on you it's like a kind of a referendum on you know one person or another know one person or another know one person or another it's kind of like what we see in Russia it's kind of like what we see in Russia it's kind of like what we see in Russia honesty with you know Putin or not Putin honesty with you know Putin or not Putin honesty with you know Putin or not Putin or Putin and put before you know it's or Putin and put before you know it's or Putin and put before you know it's all about Putin and you know what do you all about Putin and you know what do you all about Putin and you know what do you think about Putin it's not about what think about Putin it's not about what think about Putin it's not about what the President should be doing and you the President should be doing and you the President should be doing and you know kind of what their policies are know kind of what their policies are know kind of what their policies are that's kind of the bizareness of the US

that's kind of the bizareness of the US that's kind of the bizareness of the US political system look we've just seen political system look we've just seen political system look we've just seen this happening in the United Kingdom this happening in the United Kingdom this happening in the United Kingdom you've got this core of a couple of you've got this core of a couple of you've got this core of a couple of thousand a couple hundred thousand thousand a couple hundred thousand thousand a couple hundred thousand rather uh people in the conservative rather uh people in the conservative rather uh people in the conservative party have just voted for you know three party have just voted for you know three party have just voted for you know three leaders in a row the rest of the country leaders in a row the rest of the country leaders in a row the rest of the country is and then they're just looking at you is and then they're just looking at you is and then they're just looking at you know whether they like that personality know whether they like that personality know whether they like that personality and you know what they said to them and you know what they said to them and you know what they said to them rather than what they're necessarily rather than what they're necessarily rather than what they're necessarily going to do for the country going to do for the country going to do for the country I mean which is you know kind of pretty I mean which is you know kind of pretty I mean which is you know kind of pretty absurd and I mean again the presidency absurd and I mean again the presidency absurd and I mean again the presidency is a weird hybrid in the United States is a weird hybrid in the United States is a weird hybrid in the United States you know we were talking before about you know we were talking before about you know we were talking before about it's the person should be running the it's the person should be running the it's the person should be running the country to the chief executive or the country to the chief executive or the country to the chief executive or the prime minister in another setting but we prime minister in another setting but we prime minister in another setting but we don't think of it like that you know we don't think of it like that you know we don't think of it like that you know we often think about whether we like the often think about whether we like the often think about whether we like the guy or not so you know we'd like to hang guy or not so you know we'd like to hang guy or not so you know we'd like to hang out with him all the you know one of my out with him all the you know one of my out with him all the you know one of my younger relatives and I said so why did younger relatives and I said so why did younger relatives and I said so why did you vote for Trump he said well he was you vote for Trump he said well he was you vote for Trump he said well he was great it was funny how much of his great it was funny how much of his great it was funny how much of his rallies I got you know all kind of rallies I got you know all kind of rallies I got you know all kind of charged up and I said could you see charged up and I said could you see charged up and I said could you see yourself voting for Biden always Two yourself voting for Biden always Two yourself voting for Biden always Two Worlds and I simply no he's only just a Worlds and I simply no he's only just a Worlds and I simply no he's only just a little bit you know kind of older than little bit you know kind of older than little bit you know kind of older than Trump or is you know the same emergency Trump or is you know the same emergency Trump or is you know the same emergency grandma do you think your Grandma's old grandma do you think your Grandma's old grandma do you think your Grandma's old no no not at all but it's just this kind no no not at all but it's just this kind no no not at all but it's just this kind of perception he's boring you know so of perception he's boring you know so of perception he's boring you know so there's people are actually sometimes there's people are actually sometimes there's people are actually sometimes you know basically being you know kind you know basically being you know kind you know basically being you know kind of uh motivated by just a feeling you of uh motivated by just a feeling you of uh motivated by just a feeling you know kind of that kind of sense because know kind of that kind of sense because know kind of that kind of sense because that's the sort of nature of the you that's the sort of nature of the you that's the sort of nature of the you know the presidency it's this kind of know the presidency it's this kind of know the presidency it's this kind of how you feel about yourself as an how you feel about yourself as an how you feel about yourself as an American or how you feel about the American or how you feel about the American or how you feel about the country writ large the kind of a symbol country writ large the kind of a symbol country writ large the kind of a symbol of the state look at you know in Britney of the state look at you know in Britney of the state look at you know in Britney you had you know Queen Elizabeth II and you had you know Queen Elizabeth II and you had you know Queen Elizabeth II and everyone body you know seem to for the everyone body you know seem to for the everyone body you know seem to for the most part not everyone I guess but most most part not everyone I guess but most most part not everyone I guess but most people respected her as a person as a people respected her as a person as a people respected her as a person as a personality as a kind of symbol of the personality as a kind of symbol of the personality as a kind of symbol of the state even if they actually didn't state even if they actually didn't state even if they actually didn't really like the institution of the

really like the institution of the really like the institution of the monarchy there was something you know monarchy there was something you know monarchy there was something you know kind of about that particular kind of about that particular kind of about that particular personality that you were able to you personality that you were able to you personality that you were able to you know kind of relate to in that context know kind of relate to in that context know kind of relate to in that context but only the United States we've got all but only the United States we've got all but only the United States we've got all that rolled into one the head of state that rolled into one the head of state that rolled into one the head of state the symbol of the state the kind of the symbol of the state the kind of the symbol of the state the kind of queen the king the kind of idea the queen the king the kind of idea the queen the king the kind of idea the chief executive the kind of prime chief executive the kind of prime chief executive the kind of prime ministerial role and then the Commander ministerial role and then the Commander ministerial role and then the Commander in Chief of the military it's all things in Chief of the military it's all things in Chief of the military it's all things you know kind of at once but ultimately you know kind of at once but ultimately you know kind of at once but ultimately for a lot of people it's just how we for a lot of people it's just how we for a lot of people it's just how we feel about that person oh I couldn't feel about that person oh I couldn't feel about that person oh I couldn't cover up for them because of this or I cover up for them because of this or I cover up for them because of this or I couldn't vote for them because of that couldn't vote for them because of that couldn't vote for them because of that and in 2016 and in 2016 and in 2016 I know Hillary Clinton actually did win I know Hillary Clinton actually did win I know Hillary Clinton actually did win the election in terms of the popular the election in terms of the popular the election in terms of the popular vote so it wasn't that you know kind of vote so it wasn't that you know kind of vote so it wasn't that you know kind of people wouldn't vote for a woman I mean people wouldn't vote for a woman I mean people wouldn't vote for a woman I mean more people voted for her more people voted for her more people voted for her on the popular level not obviously you on the popular level not obviously you on the popular level not obviously you know through the Electoral College in know through the Electoral College in know through the Electoral College in the Electoral College vote so it wasn't the Electoral College vote so it wasn't the Electoral College vote so it wasn't just you know gender or something like just you know gender or something like just you know gender or something like that but it was an awful lot of things that but it was an awful lot of things that but it was an awful lot of things for people found Trump attractive for people found Trump attractive for people found Trump attractive because he was sticking up the big because he was sticking up the big because he was sticking up the big middle finger to The Establishment he's middle finger to The Establishment he's middle finger to The Establishment he's an anti-establishment change character an anti-establishment change character an anti-establishment change character there's a lot of people voted for Barack there's a lot of people voted for Barack there's a lot of people voted for Barack Obama for the same reason and voted for Obama for the same reason and voted for Obama for the same reason and voted for Trump we know that phenomenon what was Trump we know that phenomenon what was Trump we know that phenomenon what was the 11 you know 12 of people you know so the 11 you know 12 of people you know so the 11 you know 12 of people you know so they could vote for some completely they could vote for some completely they could vote for some completely totally different vertically different totally different vertically different totally different vertically different people because that sense of change and people because that sense of change and people because that sense of change and Charisma I mean I had people who I knew Charisma I mean I had people who I knew Charisma I mean I had people who I knew voted for Trump but would have voted for voted for Trump but would have voted for voted for Trump but would have voted for a bummer again if he'd run again a bummer again if he'd run again a bummer again if he'd run again uh because they just like the way that uh because they just like the way that uh because they just like the way that he spoke they like the way that you know he spoke they like the way that you know he spoke they like the way that you know because they said um I mean this is all because they said um I mean this is all because they said um I mean this is all my own anecdotal things dude about one my own anecdotal things dude about one my own anecdotal things dude about one of my relatives that I could listen to of my relatives that I could listen to of my relatives that I could listen to Obama all day every day I just love the Obama all day every day I just love the Obama all day every day I just love the way he sounded I love the way he looked way he sounded I love the way he looked way he sounded I love the way he looked you know I was just like the whole thing

you know I was just like the whole thing you know I was just like the whole thing about him and then say about Trump while about him and then say about Trump while about him and then say about Trump while he was exciting it was interesting you he was exciting it was interesting you he was exciting it was interesting you know he was kind of like you know know he was kind of like you know know he was kind of like you know whipping it up there you know so there's whipping it up there you know so there's whipping it up there you know so there's this just this kind of feeling you know this just this kind of feeling you know this just this kind of feeling you know we always say about you know could you we always say about you know could you we always say about you know could you have a beer with this person and people have a beer with this person and people have a beer with this person and people a lot people decide they couldn't have a lot people decide they couldn't have a lot people decide they couldn't have one with Hillary Clinton and you know one with Hillary Clinton and you know one with Hillary Clinton and you know maybe they could go off and have one maybe they could go off and have one maybe they could go off and have one with Barack Obama and uh with uh Donald with Barack Obama and uh with uh Donald with Barack Obama and uh with uh Donald Trump didn't want to have one with Joe Trump didn't want to have one with Joe Trump didn't want to have one with Joe Biden you know for example and remember Biden you know for example and remember Biden you know for example and remember George W bush didn't drink so he George W bush didn't drink so he George W bush didn't drink so he wouldn't have had a beer with him he'd wouldn't have had a beer with him he'd wouldn't have had a beer with him he'd have gone out and got a soda or have gone out and got a soda or have gone out and got a soda or something with him but you know there's something with him but you know there's something with him but you know there's this there's that kind of element of this there's that kind of element of this there's that kind of element of just that sort of personal connection in just that sort of personal connection in just that sort of personal connection in the way that the whole presidential the way that the whole presidential the way that the whole presidential election is set up it's less about the election is set up it's less about the election is set up it's less about the parties parties parties it says about the platforms it's more it says about the platforms it's more it says about the platforms it's more about the person about the person about the person yeah and picking one side and like yeah and picking one side and like yeah and picking one side and like sticking with your person really like a sticking with your person really like a sticking with your person really like a sport team yeah it is yeah what do you sport team yeah it is yeah what do you sport team yeah it is yeah what do you think about Vladimir Putin the man and think about Vladimir Putin the man and think about Vladimir Putin the man and the leader the leader the leader let's actually look at the full you've let's actually look at the full you've let's actually look at the full you've written a lot about him the the recent written a lot about him the the recent written a lot about him the the recent Vladimir Putin and the the full context Vladimir Putin and the the full context Vladimir Putin and the the full context of his life of his life of his life um let's zoom out and look at the last um let's zoom out and look at the last um let's zoom out and look at the last 20 plus years of his rule 20 plus years of his rule 20 plus years of his rule in what ways has he been good for Russia in what ways has he been good for Russia in what ways has he been good for Russia in what ways bad in what ways bad in what ways bad well if you look to the you know on the uh overall Ledger you you know on the uh overall Ledger you would have actually said that he

would have actually said that he would have actually said that he made a lot of achievements from Russia made a lot of achievements from Russia made a lot of achievements from Russia now there was of course the pretty now there was of course the pretty now there was of course the pretty black period of the war in chechnya but black period of the war in chechnya but black period of the war in chechnya but you know he didn't start that that was you know he didn't start that that was you know he didn't start that that was Boris Yeltsin that was obviously a Boris Yeltsin that was obviously a Boris Yeltsin that was obviously a pretty catastrophic uh event but if you pretty catastrophic uh event but if you pretty catastrophic uh event but if you look at then other parts of the Ledger look at then other parts of the Ledger look at then other parts of the Ledger of what Putin was doing you know from of what Putin was doing you know from of what Putin was doing you know from the 2000s you know onwards he stabilized the 2000s you know onwards he stabilized the 2000s you know onwards he stabilized the Russian economy uh brought back you the Russian economy uh brought back you the Russian economy uh brought back you know kind of confidence uh and and the know kind of confidence uh and and the know kind of confidence uh and and the Russian economy and financial system he Russian economy and financial system he Russian economy and financial system he built up a pretty impressive team of built up a pretty impressive team of built up a pretty impressive team of technocrats rather than the central bank technocrats rather than the central bank technocrats rather than the central bank and the economics and you know Finance and the economics and you know Finance and the economics and you know Finance Ministries who Ministries who Ministries who um you know really got the country back um you know really got the country back um you know really got the country back into ship again and solvent paid off all into ship again and solvent paid off all into ship again and solvent paid off all of the debts and you know really started of the debts and you know really started of the debts and you know really started to to to um build the country back up again um build the country back up again um build the country back up again domestically domestically domestically and you know the first couple of terms and you know the first couple of terms and you know the first couple of terms again putting chechnya you know to one again putting chechnya you know to one again putting chechnya you know to one side which is a little hard because I side which is a little hard because I side which is a little hard because I mean there was a lot of atrocities and I mean there was a lot of atrocities and I mean there was a lot of atrocities and I have to say that you know he was pretty have to say that you know he was pretty have to say that you know he was pretty involved in all of that because the FSB involved in all of that because the FSB involved in all of that because the FSB which he'd headed previously you know which he'd headed previously you know which he'd headed previously you know was in charge of wrapping up chechnya was in charge of wrapping up chechnya was in charge of wrapping up chechnya and it created you know kind of a of a and it created you know kind of a of a and it created you know kind of a of a very strange sort of system of fealty very strange sort of system of fealty very strange sort of system of fealty almost a feudal system in the kind of almost a feudal system in the kind of almost a feudal system in the kind of relationship between uh Putin at the top relationship between uh Putin at the top relationship between uh Putin at the top and khadira Francesca there was quite a and khadira Francesca there was quite a and khadira Francesca there was quite a lot of distortions you know kind of as a lot of distortions you know kind of as a lot of distortions you know kind of as a result of that in the way that the result of that in the way that the result of that in the way that the Russian Federation was run you know a Russian Federation was run you know a Russian Federation was run you know a lot more of an emphasis on the security lot more of an emphasis on the security lot more of an emphasis on the security services for example but there was a lot services for example but there was a lot services for example but there was a lot of pragmatism you know opening up the of pragmatism you know opening up the of pragmatism you know opening up the country for business country for business country for business um you know basically extending

um you know basically extending um you know basically extending relationships I would say that you know relationships I would say that you know relationships I would say that you know by the end of those first couple of by the end of those first couple of by the end of those first couple of terms of uh Putin Russians were living terms of uh Putin Russians were living terms of uh Putin Russians were living their best lives their best lives their best lives um you know there was a lot of um you know there was a lot of um you know there was a lot of opportunity for people uh people the opportunity for people uh people the opportunity for people uh people the labor you know was being paid for they labor you know was being paid for they labor you know was being paid for they weren't being taxed the taxes were weren't being taxed the taxes were weren't being taxed the taxes were coming out of the extractive industries coming out of the extractive industries coming out of the extractive industries uh there was you know kind of a I guess uh there was you know kind of a I guess uh there was you know kind of a I guess a sense of much more political pluralism a sense of much more political pluralism a sense of much more political pluralism um but it wasn't the kind of the chaos um but it wasn't the kind of the chaos um but it wasn't the kind of the chaos of the Elton period of the Elton period of the Elton period and then you see a shift and then you see a shift and then you see a shift and it's pretty much when he comes back and it's pretty much when he comes back and it's pretty much when he comes back into Power again into Power again into Power again in 2011 2012. in 2011 2012. in 2011 2012. and that's when we see a kind of a and that's when we see a kind of a and that's when we see a kind of a different phase emerging different phase emerging different phase emerging and you know part of it is the the and you know part of it is the the and you know part of it is the the larger International environment where larger International environment where larger International environment where Putin is himself has become kind of Putin is himself has become kind of Putin is himself has become kind of convinced of the United States is out to convinced of the United States is out to convinced of the United States is out to to get him and part of it goes back to to get him and part of it goes back to to get him and part of it goes back to the decision on the part of the United the decision on the part of the United the decision on the part of the United States to invade Iraq in 2003 States to invade Iraq in 2003 States to invade Iraq in 2003 there's also you know the recognition of there's also you know the recognition of there's also you know the recognition of Kosovo in 2008 and you know the whole Kosovo in 2008 and you know the whole Kosovo in 2008 and you know the whole kind of machinations around all kinds of kind of machinations around all kinds of kind of machinations around all kinds of you know other issues of NATO expansion you know other issues of NATO expansion you know other issues of NATO expansion and elsewhere but Iraq in 2003 and this and elsewhere but Iraq in 2003 and this and elsewhere but Iraq in 2003 and this kind of whole idea after that that the kind of whole idea after that that the kind of whole idea after that that the United States is in the business of United States is in the business of United States is in the business of regime change and perhaps you know has regime change and perhaps you know has regime change and perhaps you know has him in his crosshairs as well him in his crosshairs as well him in his crosshairs as well but there's also then kind of I think a but there's also then kind of I think a but there's also then kind of I think a sense of building crisis after the sense of building crisis after the sense of building crisis after the financial crisis and the Great Recession financial crisis and the Great Recession financial crisis and the Great Recession 2008 2009 because I think Putin up until 2008 2009 because I think Putin up until 2008 2009 because I think Putin up until then believed in you know the whole idea then believed in you know the whole idea then believed in you know the whole idea of the Global Financial system and that

of the Global Financial system and that of the Global Financial system and that Russia was prospering and that Russia Russia was prospering and that Russia Russia was prospering and that Russia you know part of the G8 actually could you know part of the G8 actually could you know part of the G8 actually could be genuinely one of the you know the be genuinely one of the you know the be genuinely one of the you know the major economic and financial powers major economic and financial powers major economic and financial powers and then suddenly he realizes that in and then suddenly he realizes that in and then suddenly he realizes that in the west is incompetent that you know we the west is incompetent that you know we the west is incompetent that you know we totally mismanaged the economy of our totally mismanaged the economy of our totally mismanaged the economy of our own the financial crash in the United own the financial crash in the United own the financial crash in the United States the kind of blowing up of the uh States the kind of blowing up of the uh States the kind of blowing up of the uh of the the housing bubble and that we of the the housing bubble and that we of the the housing bubble and that we were feckless were feckless were feckless and that we that had global and that we that had global and that we that had global reverberations reverberations reverberations and he's prime minister of course you and he's prime minister of course you and he's prime minister of course you know in this kind of period but then you know in this kind of period but then you know in this kind of period but then you know and I think that that kind of know and I think that that kind of know and I think that that kind of compels him to kind of come back into compels him to kind of come back into compels him to kind of come back into the presidency and try to kind of uh the presidency and try to kind of uh the presidency and try to kind of uh take things under control again in 2011 take things under control again in 2011 take things under control again in 2011 2012 and after that he goes into kind of 2012 and after that he goes into kind of 2012 and after that he goes into kind of a much more sort of focused role where a much more sort of focused role where a much more sort of focused role where he sees the United States as a as a big he sees the United States as a as a big he sees the United States as a as a big bigger problem bigger problem bigger problem and he also and he also and he also you know starts to you know kind of you know starts to you know kind of you know starts to you know kind of focus on also uh the domestic uh focus on also uh the domestic uh focus on also uh the domestic uh environment because his return to the environment because his return to the environment because his return to the presidency is met by protests and he presidency is met by protests and he presidency is met by protests and he genuinely seems to believe because again genuinely seems to believe because again genuinely seems to believe because again this is very similar to belief here in this is very similar to belief here in this is very similar to belief here in the United States that Donald Trump the United States that Donald Trump the United States that Donald Trump couldn't possibly be related by couldn't possibly be related by couldn't possibly be related by Americans there somehow was some kind of Americans there somehow was some kind of Americans there somehow was some kind of external inter interference because the external inter interference because the external inter interference because the Russians interfered and had an impact Russians interfered and had an impact Russians interfered and had an impact Putin himself thinks at that time it's Putin himself thinks at that time it's Putin himself thinks at that time it's one of the reasons why he interferes in one of the reasons why he interferes in one of the reasons why he interferes in our elections later that the United our elections later that the United our elections later that the United States and others had interfere because States and others had interfere because States and others had interfere because he knew that people weren't that he knew that people weren't that he knew that people weren't that thrilled about him coming back it kind thrilled about him coming back it kind thrilled about him coming back it kind of like the Medvedev period and the of like the Medvedev period and the of like the Medvedev period and the protests and Moscow and Saint Petersburg protests and Moscow and Saint Petersburg protests and Moscow and Saint Petersburg and other major cities he starts to and other major cities he starts to and other major cities he starts to believe we're instigated by the west by believe we're instigated by the west by believe we're instigated by the west by the outside

the outside the outside because of you know funding for because of you know funding for because of you know funding for um transparency in elections and you um transparency in elections and you um transparency in elections and you know all of the ngos and others you know know all of the ngos and others you know know all of the ngos and others you know they're operating State departments they're operating State departments they're operating State departments Embassy funding you know the and the you Embassy funding you know the and the you Embassy funding you know the and the you know the whole attitudes of God is back know the whole attitudes of God is back know the whole attitudes of God is back you know kind of thing you know kind of thing you know kind of thing and so after that we see Putin going on and so after that we see Putin going on and so after that we see Putin going on a very different footing it's also a very different footing it's also a very different footing it's also somewhere in that period somewhere in that period somewhere in that period 2011-2012 we start to kind of obsess 2011-2012 we start to kind of obsess 2011-2012 we start to kind of obsess about Ukraine about Ukraine about Ukraine and he's always you know I think being and he's always you know I think being and he's always you know I think being kind of steeped in that whole view of kind of steeped in that whole view of kind of steeped in that whole view of Russian history I mean I heard at that Russian history I mean I heard at that Russian history I mean I heard at that time I was in I've written about this time I was in I've written about this time I was in I've written about this and many of the things that you know and many of the things that you know and many of the things that you know I've written about Putin that in that I've written about Putin that in that I've written about Putin that in that same time frame I'm going to all these same time frame I'm going to all these same time frame I'm going to all these conferences in Russia where Putin is and conferences in Russia where Putin is and conferences in Russia where Putin is and peskov his uh uh press secretary and peskov his uh uh press secretary and peskov his uh uh press secretary and they talk about him reading Russian they talk about him reading Russian they talk about him reading Russian history I think is this in this kind of history I think is this in this kind of history I think is this in this kind of poo that he formulates this idea poo that he formulates this idea poo that he formulates this idea of of of the necessity the necessity the necessity of reconstituting the Russian World the of reconstituting the Russian World the of reconstituting the Russian World the Russian Empire he's obviously been very Russian Empire he's obviously been very Russian Empire he's obviously been very interested in this he's always said of interested in this he's always said of interested in this he's always said of course at the collapse of the Soviet course at the collapse of the Soviet course at the collapse of the Soviet Union was the great catastrophe of 20th Union was the great catastrophe of 20th Union was the great catastrophe of 20th century but also the collapse of the century but also the collapse of the century but also the collapse of the Russian Empire before it and he starts Russian Empire before it and he starts Russian Empire before it and he starts to be critical about lending the to be critical about lending the to be critical about lending the Bolsheviks and he starts to do all this Bolsheviks and he starts to do all this Bolsheviks and he starts to do all this talking about Ukraine talking about Ukraine talking about Ukraine as as as the same country ukrainians and Russians the same country ukrainians and Russians the same country ukrainians and Russians being one and the same and this is where being one and the same and this is where being one and the same and this is where the Ledger flips because I mean the the Ledger flips because I mean the the Ledger flips because I mean the initial question you asked me is about initial question you asked me is about initial question you asked me is about has Russia has Putin been good for has Russia has Putin been good for has Russia has Putin been good for Russia or not and this is where we get Russia or not and this is where we get Russia or not and this is where we get into the uh focal point of uh or the into the uh focal point of uh or the into the uh focal point of uh or the point where he's not focusing on the point where he's not focusing on the point where he's not focusing on the prosperity instability and future of prosperity instability and future of prosperity instability and future of Russia but he starts to obsess about the

Russia but he starts to obsess about the Russia but he starts to obsess about the past past past and you start to take things in a very and you start to take things in a very and you start to take things in a very different direction he starts to clamp different direction he starts to clamp different direction he starts to clamp down at home because of the rise of down at home because of the rise of down at home because of the rise of opposition and the fact that he knows opposition and the fact that he knows opposition and the fact that he knows that his you know brand is not the same that his you know brand is not the same that his you know brand is not the same as it was before his popularity is not as it was before his popularity is not as it was before his popularity is not the same as it was before because he's the same as it was before because he's the same as it was before because he's already gone over that you know that already gone over that you know that already gone over that you know that period in period in period in anybody's you know professional and you anybody's you know professional and you anybody's you know professional and you know political life that you know if you know political life that you know if you know political life that you know if you stay around long enough people get a bit stay around long enough people get a bit stay around long enough people get a bit sick of you you know it's just we talked sick of you you know it's just we talked sick of you you know it's just we talked about that before should you stay you about that before should you stay you about that before should you stay you know kind of in any job for a long know kind of in any job for a long know kind of in any job for a long period of time you need refreshing and period of time you need refreshing and period of time you need refreshing and you know kind of Putin is you know you know kind of Putin is you know you know kind of Putin is you know starting to look like he's going to be starting to look like he's going to be starting to look like he's going to be there forever and people are not happy there forever and people are not happy there forever and people are not happy about that and would like the chance as about that and would like the chance as about that and would like the chance as well to kind of move on and move up and well to kind of move on and move up and well to kind of move on and move up and you know with him and still in place you know with him and still in place you know with him and still in place that's not going to be uh particularly that's not going to be uh particularly that's not going to be uh particularly possible and that you know it's around possible and that you know it's around possible and that you know it's around the time when he starts to make that the time when he starts to make that the time when he starts to make that decision of annexing Crimea and that's decision of annexing Crimea and that's decision of annexing Crimea and that's when the whole thing flips in my view when the whole thing flips in my view when the whole thing flips in my view the annexation of Crimea in 2014 is the the annexation of Crimea in 2014 is the the annexation of Crimea in 2014 is the beginning of the end beginning of the end beginning of the end of you know Vladimir Putin being a of you know Vladimir Putin being a of you know Vladimir Putin being a positive force within Russia because if positive force within Russia because if positive force within Russia because if you you you pay very close attention pay very close attention pay very close attention to his speech on the annexation of to his speech on the annexation of to his speech on the annexation of Crimea Crimea Crimea in March of 2014 you see all the in March of 2014 you see all the in March of 2014 you see all the foreshadowing of you know where we are foreshadowing of you know where we are foreshadowing of you know where we are now it's already of kind of his view of now it's already of kind of his view of now it's already of kind of his view of kind of his obsessions his historical kind of his obsessions his historical kind of his obsessions his historical obsessions his view of himself has been obsessions his view of himself has been obsessions his view of himself has been kind of fused with the state that kind kind of fused with the state that kind kind of fused with the state that kind of a modern Czar and his idea that the of a modern Czar and his idea that the of a modern Czar and his idea that the West is up to get him and it becomes West is up to get him and it becomes West is up to get him and it becomes after that almost a kind of like a after that almost a kind of like a after that almost a kind of like a Messianic Mission you know to turn

Messianic Mission you know to turn Messianic Mission you know to turn things in a different direction things in a different direction things in a different direction and who are the key people and who are the key people and who are the key people to you in in this to you in in this to you in in this evolution of the human being of the evolution of the human being of the evolution of the human being of the leader is it patriciaf is it showing you leader is it patriciaf is it showing you leader is it patriciaf is it showing you the minister of defense is it like you the minister of defense is it like you the minister of defense is it like you mentioned pescal the press secretary uh mentioned pescal the press secretary uh mentioned pescal the press secretary uh what role do some of the others like what role do some of the others like what role do some of the others like lavrov play lavrov play lavrov play I think it's more rich ER context I mean I think it's more rich ER context I mean I think it's more rich ER context I mean individuals may also in that context but individuals may also in that context but individuals may also in that context but it's just kind of like the shared it's just kind of like the shared it's just kind of like the shared worldview and if you go back to the worldview and if you go back to the worldview and if you go back to the early 1990s immediately after the early 1990s immediately after the early 1990s immediately after the dissolution of the Soviet Union when dissolution of the Soviet Union when dissolution of the Soviet Union when Yeltsin you know and Yeltsin you know and Yeltsin you know and uh the uh has come to pass me crane uh the uh has come to pass me crane uh the uh has come to pass me crane Bellerose pull it apart there was an Bellerose pull it apart there was an Bellerose pull it apart there was an awful lot of people who you know wanted awful lot of people who you know wanted awful lot of people who you know wanted to maintain the Soviet Union not just to maintain the Soviet Union not just to maintain the Soviet Union not just Putin I mean you remember after uh Putin I mean you remember after uh Putin I mean you remember after uh Gorbachev tried to have the new Union Gorbachev tried to have the new Union Gorbachev tried to have the new Union treaty treaty treaty um in um 1991 and there was the um in um 1991 and there was the um in um 1991 and there was the emergency committee set up the coup emergency committee set up the coup emergency committee set up the coup against Gorbachev it was because they against Gorbachev it was because they against Gorbachev it was because they were worried he was going too far and were worried he was going too far and were worried he was going too far and unraveling you know the union then as unraveling you know the union then as unraveling you know the union then as well they were opposed to his reforms well they were opposed to his reforms well they were opposed to his reforms there's always been a kind of a very there's always been a kind of a very there's always been a kind of a very strong nationalist contingent that strong nationalist contingent that strong nationalist contingent that became Russian nationalists over time became Russian nationalists over time became Russian nationalists over time rather than Soviet you know hardliners rather than Soviet you know hardliners rather than Soviet you know hardliners who you know basically want to maintain who you know basically want to maintain who you know basically want to maintain the Empire the Union in some form and in the Empire the Union in some form and in the Empire the Union in some form and in the very early part of the 1990s there the very early part of the 1990s there the very early part of the 1990s there was a lot of pressure put on Ukraine and was a lot of pressure put on Ukraine and was a lot of pressure put on Ukraine and all the other former Soviet republics all the other former Soviet republics all the other former Soviet republics now independent states by people around now independent states by people around now independent states by people around you know melushkov for example in Moscow you know melushkov for example in Moscow you know melushkov for example in Moscow by you know other forces in the Russian by you know other forces in the Russian by you know other forces in the Russian uh Duma not just you know vladimirovsky

uh Duma not just you know vladimirovsky uh Duma not just you know vladimirovsky and others but you know really serious and others but you know really serious and others but you know really serious you know kind of what we would call him you know kind of what we would call him you know kind of what we would call him like right wing you know nationalist like right wing you know nationalist like right wing you know nationalist forces but it's you know pervasive in forces but it's you know pervasive in forces but it's you know pervasive in the system and it's especially the system and it's especially the system and it's especially perversive in the kg being in the perversive in the kg being in the perversive in the kg being in the security sector and that's where Putin security sector and that's where Putin security sector and that's where Putin comes out of remember Putin also was of comes out of remember Putin also was of comes out of remember Putin also was of the opinion that one of the biggest the opinion that one of the biggest the opinion that one of the biggest mistakes the Bolsheviks made was getting mistakes the Bolsheviks made was getting mistakes the Bolsheviks made was getting rid of the Orthodox Church as an rid of the Orthodox Church as an rid of the Orthodox Church as an instrument of the state instrument of the state instrument of the state and so there's this kind of and so there's this kind of and so there's this kind of restorationist wing within the security restorationist wing within the security restorationist wing within the security services and the state apparatus the services and the state apparatus the services and the state apparatus the ones who kind of bring back Russian ones who kind of bring back Russian ones who kind of bring back Russian Orthodoxy as a state instrument an Orthodoxy as a state instrument an Orthodoxy as a state instrument an instrument of state power and they were instrument of state power and they were instrument of state power and they were kind of you know looking all the time kind of you know looking all the time kind of you know looking all the time about strengthening the state uh the about strengthening the state uh the about strengthening the state uh the executive the the presidency and and so executive the the presidency and and so executive the the presidency and and so it's everybody who takes part in that it's everybody who takes part in that it's everybody who takes part in that and it's also where there's more power and it's also where there's more power and it's also where there's more power honestly and they see Putin as their honestly and they see Putin as their honestly and they see Putin as their vehicle for power I think people like vehicle for power I think people like vehicle for power I think people like Sergey kirienko I knew kirienko back in Sergey kirienko I knew kirienko back in Sergey kirienko I knew kirienko back in the 90s I mean my God that guy's all in the 90s I mean my God that guy's all in the 90s I mean my God that guy's all in or like Dimitri medvedith or like Dimitri medvedith or like Dimitri medvedith you know who was you know a warmer you know who was you know a warmer you know who was you know a warmer fuzzier version of Putin certainly had a fuzzier version of Putin certainly had a fuzzier version of Putin certainly had a totally different perspective wasn't in totally different perspective wasn't in totally different perspective wasn't in the KGB did you say warmer fuzzy fuzzier the KGB did you say warmer fuzzy fuzzier the KGB did you say warmer fuzzy fuzzier version yeah I mean he's kind of like he version yeah I mean he's kind of like he version yeah I mean he's kind of like he was literally a warm personality I don't was literally a warm personality I don't was literally a warm personality I don't know if he watched him during the know if he watched him during the know if he watched him during the September 30th annexation the guy had September 30th annexation the guy had September 30th annexation the guy had all kinds of facial twitches and looked all kinds of facial twitches and looked all kinds of facial twitches and looked so rigid and stiff that he looks like he so rigid and stiff that he looks like he so rigid and stiff that he looks like he might implode I mean that wasn't you might implode I mean that wasn't you might implode I mean that wasn't you know how he was you know earlier in his know how he was you know earlier in his know how he was you know earlier in his career and he you know had a different career and he you know had a different career and he you know had a different view of Paris Striker we always have to view of Paris Striker we always have to view of Paris Striker we always have to remember that Putin was not in Russia remember that Putin was not in Russia remember that Putin was not in Russia during parastrike he was in Dresden

during parastrike he was in Dresden during parastrike he was in Dresden watching the um East German State Fall watching the um East German State Fall watching the um East German State Fall Apart and you know dealing with the Apart and you know dealing with the Apart and you know dealing with the starsy in a kind of place where you starsy in a kind of place where you starsy in a kind of place where you weren't getting a lot of information weren't getting a lot of information weren't getting a lot of information about what was happening in West Germany about what was happening in West Germany about what was happening in West Germany or even what was happening back home in or even what was happening back home in or even what was happening back home in perestroika and he has that kind of perestroika and he has that kind of perestroika and he has that kind of group of people around him the Patra group of people around him the Patra group of people around him the Patra chefs and botany cuffs and others and chefs and botany cuffs and others and chefs and botany cuffs and others and Sergey van off and others you know from Sergey van off and others you know from Sergey van off and others you know from you know the different configurations of you know the different configurations of you know the different configurations of his administration who have come out of his administration who have come out of his administration who have come out of that same kind of mindset and are kind that same kind of mindset and are kind that same kind of mindset and are kind of you know wanting to put everything of you know wanting to put everything of you know wanting to put everything back together again so there's a lot of back together again so there's a lot of back together again so there's a lot of enablers there's a lot of you know power enablers there's a lot of you know power enablers there's a lot of you know power Seekers and there are a lot of people Seekers and there are a lot of people Seekers and there are a lot of people who you know think the same as him as who you know think the same as him as who you know think the same as him as well he is a man of his times a man of well he is a man of his times a man of well he is a man of his times a man of his context his context his context you as a top advisor yourself and and a you as a top advisor yourself and and a you as a top advisor yourself and and a scholar of Putin do you think it scholar of Putin do you think it scholar of Putin do you think it actually now in his inner circle are actually now in his inner circle are actually now in his inner circle are there people he trusts there are people there people he trusts there are people there people he trusts there are people he trusts for some things he trusts for some things he trusts for some things but I don't think there's people who but I don't think there's people who but I don't think there's people who trust for everything I don't think it's trust for everything I don't think it's trust for everything I don't think it's the kind of person who tells anyone the kind of person who tells anyone the kind of person who tells anyone everything at all I don't think he's got everything at all I don't think he's got everything at all I don't think he's got something ever deeply confides I know something ever deeply confides I know something ever deeply confides I know he'll he's he's com he I think he he'll he's he's com he I think he he'll he's he's com he I think he compartmentalizes things he's often said compartmentalizes things he's often said compartmentalizes things he's often said that the only person who trust is that the only person who trust is that the only person who trust is himself himself himself I think that's probably true he's the I think that's probably true he's the I think that's probably true he's the kind of person who keeps his own counsel kind of person who keeps his own counsel kind of person who keeps his own counsel I mean people talk about Kovalchuk for I mean people talk about Kovalchuk for I mean people talk about Kovalchuk for example or you know kind of some of the example or you know kind of some of the example or you know kind of some of the other people who are you know friends uh other people who are you know friends uh other people who are you know friends uh with him that kind of go back to his with him that kind of go back to his with him that kind of go back to his time in Saint Petersburg you know at time in Saint Petersburg you know at time in Saint Petersburg you know at various points he seem to you know spend various points he seem to you know spend various points he seem to you know spend a lot of time you know way back when a lot of time you know way back when a lot of time you know way back when talking to people who are you know talking to people who are you know talking to people who are you know people think of kind of more moderating people think of kind of more moderating people think of kind of more moderating forces like Alexia kudrin but you know

forces like Alexia kudrin but you know forces like Alexia kudrin but you know it doesn't seem to be interacting you it doesn't seem to be interacting you it doesn't seem to be interacting you know with them you know there are know with them you know there are know with them you know there are obviously aspects of his personal life obviously aspects of his personal life obviously aspects of his personal life you know does he you know does he you know does he speak to his daughters does he you know speak to his daughters does he you know speak to his daughters does he you know speak to you know kind of speak to you know kind of speak to you know kind of lovers you know kind of in a way of lovers you know kind of in a way of lovers you know kind of in a way of people speculate about you know kind of people speculate about you know kind of people speculate about you know kind of who might be confide in but I would who might be confide in but I would who might be confide in but I would greatly doubt that he would have deep greatly doubt that he would have deep greatly doubt that he would have deep political discussions with them he's a political discussions with them he's a political discussions with them he's a very guarded uh very careful person what very guarded uh very careful person what very guarded uh very careful person what about sources of information then so about sources of information then so about sources of information then so trust a deep understanding about trust a deep understanding about trust a deep understanding about military strategies with military strategies with military strategies with um for certain conflicts like the war in um for certain conflicts like the war in um for certain conflicts like the war in Ukraine or even special Ukraine or even special Ukraine or even special uh subsets of the war in Ukraine or any uh subsets of the war in Ukraine or any uh subsets of the war in Ukraine or any kind of military operations getting kind of military operations getting kind of military operations getting clear information deeply suspicious you clear information deeply suspicious you clear information deeply suspicious you know of know of know of under of information under of information under of information and I think in a part of of the problems and I think in a part of of the problems and I think in a part of of the problems that you know we see with Putin now that you know we see with Putin now that you know we see with Putin now I mean I've come from isolation during I mean I've come from isolation during I mean I've come from isolation during covet I'm I'm really convinced that you covet I'm I'm really convinced that you covet I'm I'm really convinced that you know like many of us know like many of us know like many of us you know a lot of Putin's views have you know a lot of Putin's views have you know a lot of Putin's views have hardened hardened hardened and the way that he looks at the world and the way that he looks at the world and the way that he looks at the world have been have been have been shuddered in very dark Ways by the shuddered in very dark Ways by the shuddered in very dark Ways by the experience of this pandemic experience of this pandemic experience of this pandemic you know obviously he was in a bubble you know obviously he was in a bubble you know obviously he was in a bubble different kind of bubble for most of us different kind of bubble for most of us different kind of bubble for most of us I mean most of us are not bubbles with I mean most of us are not bubbles with I mean most of us are not bubbles with multiple you know kind of palaces and multiple you know kind of palaces and multiple you know kind of palaces and you know kind of the Kremlin you know kind of the Kremlin you know kind of the Kremlin but you know we've seen you know so much but you know we've seen you know so much but you know we've seen you know so much obviously a lot of this is staged that obviously a lot of this is staged that obviously a lot of this is staged that isolation you know they're kind of

isolation you know they're kind of isolation you know they're kind of making it very clear that he's the Tsar making it very clear that he's the Tsar making it very clear that he's the Tsar the guy who is in charge making all the the guy who is in charge making all the the guy who is in charge making all the decisions you know one end of the table decisions you know one end of the table decisions you know one end of the table and everybody else is at the other end and everybody else is at the other end and everybody else is at the other end but you know it's very difficult then to but you know it's very difficult then to but you know it's very difficult then to bring you know information to him in bring you know information to him in bring you know information to him in that way he used to have a lot of that way he used to have a lot of that way he used to have a lot of information bundled for him in the old information bundled for him in the old information bundled for him in the old days by the presidential Administration days by the presidential Administration days by the presidential Administration I mean I know that because it was a lot I mean I know that because it was a lot I mean I know that because it was a lot more open in the past and I have a lot more open in the past and I have a lot more open in the past and I have a lot of meetings with people in the of meetings with people in the of meetings with people in the presidential Administration who brought presidential Administration who brought presidential Administration who brought outside you know would say all Source outside you know would say all Source outside you know would say all Source information you know for him and you information you know for him and you information you know for him and you know kind of funneled in information know kind of funneled in information know kind of funneled in information from different think tanks and from different think tanks and from different think tanks and you know different viewpoints and you know different viewpoints and you know different viewpoints and maybe a kind of more eclectic maybe a kind of more eclectic maybe a kind of more eclectic Diversified set of information you would Diversified set of information you would Diversified set of information you would meet with people you know you've heard meet with people you know you've heard meet with people you know you've heard all the stories about where he had once all the stories about where he had once all the stories about where he had once called a Masha gessen you know and had a called a Masha gessen you know and had a called a Masha gessen you know and had a you know come in you know obviously a you know come in you know obviously a you know come in you know obviously a you know a very different character as a you know a very different character as a you know a very different character as a journalist and a Critic you know we've journalist and a Critic you know we've journalist and a Critic you know we've heard about benedictive from Echo heard about benedictive from Echo heard about benedictive from Echo Muscovy the you know the radio program Muscovy the you know the radio program Muscovy the you know the radio program the the editor who uh Putin would you the the editor who uh Putin would you the the editor who uh Putin would you know talk to and consult with he he'd know talk to and consult with he he'd know talk to and consult with he he'd Reach Out people Reach Out people Reach Out people um like Elizabeth alexieva for example um like Elizabeth alexieva for example um like Elizabeth alexieva for example the head of Memorial he had some respect the head of Memorial he had some respect the head of Memorial he had some respect for her and would you know sometimes for her and would you know sometimes for her and would you know sometimes just you know talk to her you know for just you know talk to her you know for just you know talk to her you know for example all of that seems to have example all of that seems to have example all of that seems to have come to a halt come to a halt come to a halt and I think I think a lot of us worry I and I think I think a lot of us worry I and I think I think a lot of us worry I mean us who you know watch Putin about mean us who you know watch Putin about mean us who you know watch Putin about what kind of information is he getting what kind of information is he getting what kind of information is he getting you know is it is it just the you know is it is it just the you know is it is it just the information that he's seeking and information that he's seeking and information that he's seeking and Gathering himself that fits into his Gathering himself that fits into his Gathering himself that fits into his worldview and his framework we're all worldview and his framework we're all worldview and his framework we're all guilty of that of looking for things it guilty of that of looking for things it guilty of that of looking for things it gets to our social media preferences are

gets to our social media preferences are gets to our social media preferences are people just bring into him things that people just bring into him things that people just bring into him things that they think he wants to hear like the they think he wants to hear like the they think he wants to hear like the algorithm you know kind of like the algorithm you know kind of like the algorithm you know kind of like the Kremlin working in that regard was he Kremlin working in that regard was he Kremlin working in that regard was he himself you know tapping into sorts of himself you know tapping into sorts of himself you know tapping into sorts of information that he absolutely wants and information that he absolutely wants and information that he absolutely wants and remember he is not a military guy remember he is not a military guy remember he is not a military guy he's a not preserved and he was sort of he's a not preserved and he was sort of he's a not preserved and he was sort of trained in operations and you know trained in operations and you know trained in operations and you know contingency planning contingency planning contingency planning Sergey the defense minister as a civil Sergey the defense minister as a civil Sergey the defense minister as a civil engineer was the former minister of engineer was the former minister of engineer was the former minister of emergencies it wasn't a military planner emergencies it wasn't a military planner emergencies it wasn't a military planner you know somebody like um the head of you know somebody like um the head of you know somebody like um the head of the the the Chiefs of Staff maybe a military guy you Chiefs of Staff maybe a military guy you Chiefs of Staff maybe a military guy you know in this you know case from the Army know in this you know case from the Army know in this you know case from the Army but he's also somebody who's in a but he's also somebody who's in a but he's also somebody who's in a different part the churn of command he's different part the churn of command he's different part the churn of command he's not somebody who would spontaneously not somebody who would spontaneously not somebody who would spontaneously start you know telling Putin things and start you know telling Putin things and start you know telling Putin things and Putin you know comes out of the FSB out Putin you know comes out of the FSB out Putin you know comes out of the FSB out of the KGB of the Soviet era and he of the KGB of the Soviet era and he of the KGB of the Soviet era and he knows the way that you know intelligence knows the way that you know intelligence knows the way that you know intelligence get filtered and worked he's probably get filtered and worked he's probably get filtered and worked he's probably somebody wants to consume raw somebody wants to consume raw somebody wants to consume raw intelligence he doesn't probably want to intelligence he doesn't probably want to intelligence he doesn't probably want to hear anybody else's analysis and he hear anybody else's analysis and he hear anybody else's analysis and he survived in the past of you know picking survived in the past of you know picking survived in the past of you know picking things up from people you know I've things up from people you know I've things up from people you know I've taken part in all of these meetings with taken part in all of these meetings with taken part in all of these meetings with him gone for hours because he's just him gone for hours because he's just him gone for hours because he's just collecting he's collecting information collecting he's collecting information collecting he's collecting information he's sussing people out he wants to know he's sussing people out he wants to know he's sussing people out he wants to know the questions they ask he learned the questions they ask he learned the questions they ask he learned something about the questions that something about the questions that something about the questions that people ask the way that they ask them people ask the way that they ask them people ask the way that they ask them you know so he's kind of soliciting you know so he's kind of soliciting you know so he's kind of soliciting information himself and if he's cut off information himself and if he's cut off information himself and if he's cut off from that information from that information from that information you know because of circumstances you know because of circumstances you know because of circumstances then you know how is he formulating then you know how is he formulating then you know how is he formulating things in his head and again getting things in his head and again getting things in his head and again getting into you can't get into his head but you into you can't get into his head but you into you can't get into his head but you can understand the context in which he's can understand the context in which he's can understand the context in which he's operating and that's where you worry

operating and that's where you worry operating and that's where you worry because he clearly made this decision to because he clearly made this decision to because he clearly made this decision to invade Ukraine behind the back of most invade Ukraine behind the back of most invade Ukraine behind the back of most of his security establishment you think so oh I think it's pretty you think so oh I think it's pretty apparent oh what uh what would the apparent oh what uh what would the apparent oh what uh what would the security establishment will be well that security establishment will be well that security establishment will be well that would be the larger you know thinking would be the larger you know thinking would be the larger you know thinking the funneling in information from the uh the funneling in information from the uh the funneling in information from the uh presidential Administration from the presidential Administration from the presidential Administration from the National Security National Security National Security it's like you know he made that decision it's like you know he made that decision it's like you know he made that decision and then you know having worked in these and then you know having worked in these and then you know having worked in these kinds of environments and it's not that kinds of environments and it's not that kinds of environments and it's not that dissimilar you filter information up so dissimilar you filter information up so dissimilar you filter information up so think about you know you and I are think about you know you and I are think about you know you and I are talking for hours here talking for hours here talking for hours here um if if you were my you know uh um if if you were my you know uh um if if you were my you know uh basically basically basically um you know senior official and I'm your um you know senior official and I'm your um you know senior official and I'm your briefer I might only get 20 minutes with briefer I might only get 20 minutes with briefer I might only get 20 minutes with you you you and you might be just like you know and you might be just like you know and you might be just like you know looking at your watch the whole time and looking at your watch the whole time and looking at your watch the whole time and thinking hang on a second I've got to go thinking hang on a second I've got to go thinking hang on a second I've got to go and I've got this meeting and I've got and I've got this meeting and I've got and I've got this meeting and I've got that meeting and yeah your point you're that meeting and yeah your point you're that meeting and yeah your point you're not going to wait there so I give this not going to wait there so I give this not going to wait there so I give this long explanation I've got to get to the long explanation I've got to get to the long explanation I've got to get to the point and then I've got to then choose point and then I've got to then choose point and then I've got to then choose for myself what's the information I'm for myself what's the information I'm for myself what's the information I'm going to impart to you out of the 20 going to impart to you out of the 20 going to impart to you out of the 20 things I think are important things I think are important things I think are important you know okay I've got 20 minutes maybe you know okay I've got 20 minutes maybe you know okay I've got 20 minutes maybe I only get two minutes maybe you know I only get two minutes maybe you know I only get two minutes maybe you know you get called out and somebody you know you get called out and somebody you know you get called out and somebody you know kind of interrupts something happens I'm kind of interrupts something happens I'm kind of interrupts something happens I'm gonna get one minute two minutes yeah I gonna get one minute two minutes yeah I gonna get one minute two minutes yeah I mean I want to remember I had to give a mean I want to remember I had to give a mean I want to remember I had to give a presentation when I was in government presentation when I was in government presentation when I was in government you know to um Henry Kissinger you know you know to um Henry Kissinger you know you know to um Henry Kissinger you know for that defense policy board and we for that defense policy board and we for that defense policy board and we plan bloody weeks on this thing you know plan bloody weeks on this thing you know plan bloody weeks on this thing you know PowerPoints were created teams of people PowerPoints were created teams of people PowerPoints were created teams of people were brought together were brought together were brought together and you know people were practicing this

and you know people were practicing this and you know people were practicing this we had all these you know different we had all these you know different we had all these you know different people there and I said look Henry people there and I said look Henry people there and I said look Henry Kissinger is an academic and former Kissinger is an academic and former Kissinger is an academic and former professor and you know I happened to you professor and you know I happened to you professor and you know I happened to you know I'm gonna watch him in action he's know I'm gonna watch him in action he's know I'm gonna watch him in action he's gonna like gonna like gonna like you know five seconds in if we'll if you know five seconds in if we'll if you know five seconds in if we'll if we're lucky we get that far ask us a we're lucky we get that far ask us a we're lucky we get that far ask us a question and just throw off our entire question and just throw off our entire question and just throw off our entire presentation what is it that we want to presentation what is it that we want to presentation what is it that we want to convey and that's exactly what happened convey and that's exactly what happened convey and that's exactly what happened and then you know people aren't really and then you know people aren't really and then you know people aren't really prepared what they wanted to convey and prepared what they wanted to convey and prepared what they wanted to convey and they're you know they'd be prepared uh they're you know they'd be prepared uh they're you know they'd be prepared uh you know a nice sort of fulsome you know you know a nice sort of fulsome you know you know a nice sort of fulsome you know PowerPoint like approach we never even PowerPoint like approach we never even PowerPoint like approach we never even got there and so God knows what you know got there and so God knows what you know got there and so God knows what you know he took away from it at the end of it he took away from it at the end of it he took away from it at the end of it and that's you know think about Putin and that's you know think about Putin and that's you know think about Putin he's going to be kind of impatient he's he's going to be kind of impatient he's he's going to be kind of impatient he's you know we see the televised things you know we see the televised things you know we see the televised things where he you know kind of sits at a where he you know kind of sits at a where he you know kind of sits at a table a bit like you know people won't table a bit like you know people won't table a bit like you know people won't necessarily see us here and he puts his necessarily see us here and he puts his necessarily see us here and he puts his hands on the tip and he looks across at hands on the tip and he looks across at hands on the tip and he looks across at the person who says so tell me the person who says so tell me the person who says so tell me you know what's the main things I need you know what's the main things I need you know what's the main things I need to know and of course the person's mind to know and of course the person's mind to know and of course the person's mind probably goes blank you know with the probably goes blank you know with the probably goes blank you know with the kind of the thought of like oh God kind of the thought of like oh God kind of the thought of like oh God what's the main thing yeah and they go what's the main thing yeah and they go what's the main thing yeah and they go and they start well Vladimir and they start well Vladimir and they start well Vladimir vladimirovich and you know they they vladimirovich and you know they they vladimirovich and you know they they start the kind of you know they're start the kind of you know they're start the kind of you know they're revving up you know to get to the point revving up you know to get to the point revving up you know to get to the point and then he cuts them off so you think and then he cuts them off so you think and then he cuts them off so you think about that and then you think about well about that and then you think about well about that and then you think about well what information has he got and then how what information has he got and then how what information has he got and then how does he process it and is he suspicious does he process it and is he suspicious does he process it and is he suspicious of it does he not believe it of it does he not believe it of it does he not believe it and what inside of his own history then and what inside of his own history then and what inside of his own history then you know leads him to make one judgment you know leads him to make one judgment you know leads him to make one judgment over another he clearly thought the over another he clearly thought the over another he clearly thought the acronyms would fall apart in five acronyms would fall apart in five acronyms would fall apart in five seconds seconds seconds we don't know if he clearly thought that we don't know if he clearly thought that we don't know if he clearly thought that but that there was a uh but that there was a uh but that there was a uh high probability maybe I mean I think he

high probability maybe I mean I think he high probability maybe I mean I think he pretty much thought it because I think pretty much thought it because I think pretty much thought it because I think he thought that you know kind of his he thought that you know kind of his he thought that you know kind of his silencer wasn't very popular there was silencer wasn't very popular there was silencer wasn't very popular there was an awful lot of you know pro-russian an awful lot of you know pro-russian an awful lot of you know pro-russian sentiment and whatever where he thinks sentiment and whatever where he thinks sentiment and whatever where he thinks that is because people are Russian that is because people are Russian that is because people are Russian speakers and that you know they're kind speakers and that you know they're kind speakers and that you know they're kind of you know in polling that you know of you know in polling that you know of you know in polling that you know they're expressed Affinity with Russia I they're expressed Affinity with Russia I they're expressed Affinity with Russia I mean certainly in Crimea mean certainly in Crimea mean certainly in Crimea um that worked out because a majority of um that worked out because a majority of um that worked out because a majority of the population had you know higher the population had you know higher the population had you know higher Sentiments of feelings of affinity with Sentiments of feelings of affinity with Sentiments of feelings of affinity with Russia and you know obviously you know Russia and you know obviously you know Russia and you know obviously you know that that kind of they got traction that that kind of they got traction that that kind of they got traction there but it's more complicated we there but it's more complicated we there but it's more complicated we talked about donbass before about being talked about donbass before about being talked about donbass before about being a you know kind of Melting Pot when you a you know kind of Melting Pot when you a you know kind of Melting Pot when you know they tried the same thing in donbas know they tried the same thing in donbas know they tried the same thing in donbas Donetsk because it tried in Crimea in Donetsk because it tried in Crimea in Donetsk because it tried in Crimea in 2014 didn't kind of pan out in fact you 2014 didn't kind of pan out in fact you 2014 didn't kind of pan out in fact you know a whole war broke out they tried know a whole war broke out they tried know a whole war broke out they tried you know to kind of in you know to kind of in you know to kind of in um uh you know many of the major cities um uh you know many of the major cities um uh you know many of the major cities in our under attack including Odessa to in our under attack including Odessa to in our under attack including Odessa to kind of ferment you know pro-russian kind of ferment you know pro-russian kind of ferment you know pro-russian movements and they're completely and movements and they're completely and movements and they're completely and ugly fell apart so Putin was thinking ugly fell apart so Putin was thinking ugly fell apart so Putin was thinking and I'm pretty sure based on polling and and I'm pretty sure based on polling and and I'm pretty sure based on polling and the FSB having infiltrated you know an the FSB having infiltrated you know an the FSB having infiltrated you know an awful lot of the Ukrainian hierarchies awful lot of the Ukrainian hierarchies awful lot of the Ukrainian hierarchies we're now seeing is quite apparent with we're now seeing is quite apparent with we're now seeing is quite apparent with some of the dismissals in Ukraine he was some of the dismissals in Ukraine he was some of the dismissals in Ukraine he was pretty sure that you know kind of he pretty sure that you know kind of he pretty sure that you know kind of he would get traction and that it would be would get traction and that it would be would get traction and that it would be like 1956 in Hungary or 1968 and check like 1956 in Hungary or 1968 and check like 1956 in Hungary or 1968 and check as if I can remember he comes out of the as if I can remember he comes out of the as if I can remember he comes out of the and drop-off uh Levy as it's called the and drop-off uh Levy as it's called the and drop-off uh Levy as it's called the kind of cohort of people who come and kind of cohort of people who come and kind of cohort of people who come and under under the KGB under Yuri and drop under under the KGB under Yuri and drop under under the KGB under Yuri and drop off and you're on top of us presided off and you're on top of us presided off and you're on top of us presided over a lot of these anti-discidant you over a lot of these anti-discidant you over a lot of these anti-discidant you know kind of movements inside of Russia

know kind of movements inside of Russia know kind of movements inside of Russia itself and how you suppress opposition itself and how you suppress opposition itself and how you suppress opposition but also over you know how you deal with but also over you know how you deal with but also over you know how you deal with um you know kind of the uprisings in you um you know kind of the uprisings in you um you know kind of the uprisings in you know Czechoslovakia and Hungary and know Czechoslovakia and Hungary and know Czechoslovakia and Hungary and there's all these lessons from this that there's all these lessons from this that there's all these lessons from this that you know you can put everything back in you know you can put everything back in you know you can put everything back in the box and yeah there might be a bit of the box and yeah there might be a bit of the box and yeah there might be a bit of violence and a bit of fighting but violence and a bit of fighting but violence and a bit of fighting but ultimately you you think you've got the ultimately you you think you've got the ultimately you you think you've got the political figures and you decapitate the political figures and you decapitate the political figures and you decapitate the opposition so they thought you've let opposition so they thought you've let opposition so they thought you've let you know zielinski would run away yeah you know zielinski would run away yeah you know zielinski would run away yeah kovich ran away but you know Bob was kovich ran away but you know Bob was kovich ran away but you know Bob was kind of a bit you know sort of a kind of a bit you know sort of a kind of a bit you know sort of a different set of circumstances and they different set of circumstances and they different set of circumstances and they thought that all of the local thought that all of the local thought that all of the local governments would you know kind of governments would you know kind of governments would you know kind of capitulate because they had enough capitulate because they had enough capitulate because they had enough Russians and inverted commas in there Russians and inverted commas in there Russians and inverted commas in there again mistaking language again mistaking language again mistaking language and you know kind of positive Affinity and you know kind of positive Affinity and you know kind of positive Affinity towards Russia for identity or how towards Russia for identity or how towards Russia for identity or how people would react in the time and not people would react in the time and not people would react in the time and not understanding people's understanding people's understanding people's you know linkages and you know kind of you know linkages and you know kind of you know linkages and you know kind of importance of place the way that people importance of place the way that people importance of place the way that people feel about who they are in a certain set feel about who they are in a certain set feel about who they are in a certain set of circumstances in a place of circumstances in a place of circumstances in a place but the invasion of Ukraine in 2022 is but the invasion of Ukraine in 2022 is but the invasion of Ukraine in 2022 is unlike anything unlike anything unlike anything that he was ever involved with so but I that he was ever involved with so but I that he was ever involved with so but I don't think he thought it would be you don't think he thought it would be you don't think he thought it would be you know because it's this kind of if he know because it's this kind of if he know because it's this kind of if he looks back into the past you're right looks back into the past you're right looks back into the past you're right though he wasn't involved in 68 or 56 or though he wasn't involved in 68 or 56 or though he wasn't involved in 68 or 56 or what happened in the 1980s in Poland but what happened in the 1980s in Poland but what happened in the 1980s in Poland but there's a very wide front and it's the there's a very wide front and it's the there's a very wide front and it's the capital and I mean this isn't going for capital and I mean this isn't going for capital and I mean this isn't going for this isn't chitch now this isn't you this isn't chitch now this isn't you this isn't chitch now this isn't you know kind of Syria or for example this know kind of Syria or for example this know kind of Syria or for example this is a major Innovation exactly like a lot is a major Innovation exactly like a lot is a major Innovation exactly like a lot it's large to the size it was more like

it's large to the size it was more like it's large to the size it was more like Afghanistan but they didn't realize that Afghanistan but they didn't realize that Afghanistan but they didn't realize that because again ukrainians are us this is because again ukrainians are us this is because again ukrainians are us this is kind of inability to think that people kind of inability to think that people kind of inability to think that people might think differently and might want might think differently and might want might think differently and might want something different and that 30 years of something different and that 30 years of something different and that 30 years of Independence actually has an impact on Independence actually has an impact on Independence actually has an impact on people and there's psyches and people and there's psyches and people and there's psyches and if I look back to the 1990s I mean I if I look back to the 1990s I mean I if I look back to the 1990s I mean I remember being in seminars in at Harvard remember being in seminars in at Harvard remember being in seminars in at Harvard at the time and we were doing a lot of at the time and we were doing a lot of at the time and we were doing a lot of research on research on research on you know what was happening in you know you know what was happening in you know you know what was happening in you know the former Soviet Union at the time the former Soviet Union at the time the former Soviet Union at the time because the early 1990s just after the because the early 1990s just after the because the early 1990s just after the you know the whole place fell apart you know the whole place fell apart you know the whole place fell apart and there was already under Yelps in and there was already under Yelps in and there was already under Yelps in this kind of idea of Russians abroad this kind of idea of Russians abroad this kind of idea of Russians abroad Russians in the near abroad Russian Russians in the near abroad Russian Russians in the near abroad Russian speakers and the need to bring them back speakers and the need to bring them back speakers and the need to bring them back in in in and I remember you know we had seminars and I remember you know we had seminars and I remember you know we had seminars at the time when we talked about at some at the time when we talked about at some at the time when we talked about at some point there'd be some people in Russia point there'd be some people in Russia point there'd be some people in Russia that would actually believe that that would actually believe that that would actually believe that those Russian speakers needed to be those Russian speakers needed to be those Russian speakers needed to be brought back into Russia but that the brought back into Russia but that the brought back into Russia but that the people who spoke Russia might have moved people who spoke Russia might have moved people who spoke Russia might have moved on because they certainly had other on because they certainly had other on because they certainly had other opportunities in other windows on the opportunities in other windows on the opportunities in other windows on the world I mean look what's happened in world I mean look what's happened in world I mean look what's happened in Scotland you know for example most Scotland you know for example most Scotland you know for example most people in Scotland speak English people in Scotland speak English people in Scotland speak English the Scottish language is not the the Scottish language is not the the Scottish language is not the standard bearer of Scottish identity standard bearer of Scottish identity standard bearer of Scottish identity there's just it's almost a civic there's just it's almost a civic there's just it's almost a civic identity a different identity than not identity a different identity than not identity a different identity than not just national identity just like you see just national identity just like you see just national identity just like you see in Ukraine and there's lots of English in Ukraine and there's lots of English in Ukraine and there's lots of English people that have moved to Scotland and people that have moved to Scotland and people that have moved to Scotland and now think of themselves as Scottish and now think of themselves as Scottish and now think of themselves as Scottish and Brazilians or Italians and you know all Brazilians or Italians and you know all Brazilians or Italians and you know all kinds of people who've moved in there um kinds of people who've moved in there um kinds of people who've moved in there um it's a smaller population obviously it's it's a smaller population obviously it's it's a smaller population obviously it's not the scale of uh Ukraine but not the scale of uh Ukraine but not the scale of uh Ukraine but you know people feel differently and

you know people feel differently and you know people feel differently and there's been a Devolution of power and there's been a Devolution of power and there's been a Devolution of power and when brexit happened you know Scotland when brexit happened you know Scotland when brexit happened you know Scotland didn't want to go along with that at all didn't want to go along with that at all didn't want to go along with that at all and wanted to kind of still be you know and wanted to kind of still be you know and wanted to kind of still be you know having a window on Europe and that's having a window on Europe and that's having a window on Europe and that's kind of historic and lots of people in kind of historic and lots of people in kind of historic and lots of people in Ukraine have locked west not East Ukraine have locked west not East Ukraine have locked west not East you know it depends on where you are not you know it depends on where you are not you know it depends on where you are not not just in not just in not just in uh lavif you know or somewhere like that uh lavif you know or somewhere like that uh lavif you know or somewhere like that but also in Kiev and and how to keep you but also in Kiev and and how to keep you but also in Kiev and and how to keep you know was kind of predominantly a know was kind of predominantly a know was kind of predominantly a russian-speaking city but harcave was russian-speaking city but harcave was russian-speaking city but harcave was also the center of Ukrainian culture and also the center of Ukrainian culture and also the center of Ukrainian culture and Ukrainian literature you know different Ukrainian literature you know different Ukrainian literature you know different points people have different views I points people have different views I points people have different views I grew up in the north of England we don't grew up in the north of England we don't grew up in the north of England we don't feel like the south of England there's feel like the south of England there's feel like the south of England there's been a massive divide between north and been a massive divide between north and been a massive divide between north and south and England for Millennia not just south and England for Millennia not just south and England for Millennia not just centuries so you know people feel centuries so you know people feel centuries so you know people feel differently depending on where they live differently depending on where they live differently depending on where they live and you know kind of where they grew up and you know kind of where they grew up and you know kind of where they grew up and Putin just and Putin just and Putin just didn't see that so he didn't see that didn't see that so he didn't see that didn't see that so he didn't see that well hold on a second let me sort of well hold on a second let me sort of well hold on a second let me sort of push back at the fact that I don't think push back at the fact that I don't think push back at the fact that I don't think any of this is obvious so first of all any of this is obvious so first of all any of this is obvious so first of all zelansky before the war was unpopular oh zelansky before the war was unpopular oh zelansky before the war was unpopular oh it was what was it 38 something like it was what was it 38 something like it was what was it 38 something like that that that Liberty yeah Liberty yeah Liberty yeah yeah let me uh sort of make the case yeah let me uh sort of make the case yeah let me uh sort of make the case that the the calculation here that the the calculation here that the the calculation here uh is is very difficult if you were to uh is is very difficult if you were to uh is is very difficult if you were to pull pull pull every citizen of Ukraine and ask them every citizen of Ukraine and ask them every citizen of Ukraine and ask them what do you think happens if Russia what do you think happens if Russia what do you think happens if Russia invades invades invades just like actually each put each just like actually each put each just like actually each put each individual Ukrainian in a one-on-one individual Ukrainian in a one-on-one individual Ukrainian in a one-on-one meeting with Putin and say what do you meeting with Putin and say what do you meeting with Putin and say what do you think happens think happens think happens I honestly think most of them will say I honestly think most of them will say I honestly think most of them will say that they will agree

that they will agree that they will agree with a prediction that the government with a prediction that the government with a prediction that the government would flee with collapse and the the would flee with collapse and the the would flee with collapse and the the country won't Unite country won't Unite country won't Unite uh around the cause because of the uh around the cause because of the uh around the cause because of the factions because of all the different factions because of all the different factions because of all the different parties involved because of the parties involved because of the parties involved because of the popularity might have said the same popularity might have said the same popularity might have said the same thing about the Soviet Union when Hitler thing about the Soviet Union when Hitler thing about the Soviet Union when Hitler invaded in 1941 invaded in 1941 invaded in 1941 you see the problem is Putin always you see the problem is Putin always you see the problem is Putin always reads history from one perspective over reads history from one perspective over reads history from one perspective over another I think most countries another I think most countries another I think most countries basically rise to their own defense basically rise to their own defense basically rise to their own defense so this is actually one of the first so this is actually one of the first so this is actually one of the first times that Russia has been on the times that Russia has been on the times that Russia has been on the offensive offensive offensive rather than on the defensive you know so there's kind of a bit of a you know so there's kind of a bit of a flip there flip there flip there I mean obviously Afghanistan but you I mean obviously Afghanistan but you I mean obviously Afghanistan but you know that was more complicated because know that was more complicated because know that was more complicated because it was operative it's also supposed to it was operative it's also supposed to it was operative it's also supposed to be an intervention right I mean it be an intervention right I mean it be an intervention right I mean it wasn't supposed to be to Annex wasn't supposed to be to Annex wasn't supposed to be to Annex Afghanistan it was to right try to you Afghanistan it was to right try to you Afghanistan it was to right try to you know prop up you know kind of our know prop up you know kind of our know prop up you know kind of our reinstall of you know a leader there reinstall of you know a leader there reinstall of you know a leader there Syria you were in there to you know help Syria you were in there to you know help Syria you were in there to you know help your guy Bashar al-assad you know turn your guy Bashar al-assad you know turn your guy Bashar al-assad you know turn away the opposition chechnya was a away the opposition chechnya was a away the opposition chechnya was a debacle the chechens fought back big debacle the chechens fought back big debacle the chechens fought back big time and it was only by didn't of you time and it was only by didn't of you time and it was only by didn't of you know a horrible violent persistence know a horrible violent persistence know a horrible violent persistence and ruthlessness and nasty dirty tricks and ruthlessness and nasty dirty tricks and ruthlessness and nasty dirty tricks that that that um you know kind of Putin prevailed um you know kind of Putin prevailed um you know kind of Putin prevailed there but and then you know you wonder there but and then you know you wonder there but and then you know you wonder did he Prevail because what happened did he Prevail because what happened did he Prevail because what happened in a church now sometimes describes the in a church now sometimes describes the in a church now sometimes describes the most independent part of the Russian most independent part of the Russian most independent part of the Russian Federation and ramazan khadirov and it Federation and ramazan khadirov and it Federation and ramazan khadirov and it plays power games in Moscow yeah his

plays power games in Moscow yeah his plays power games in Moscow yeah his predecessors predecessors predecessors um even his father and others wouldn't um even his father and others wouldn't um even his father and others wouldn't have done that have done that have done that and you know before that the dayaf and and you know before that the dayaf and and you know before that the dayaf and mosgardev I mean they were willing to mosgardev I mean they were willing to mosgardev I mean they were willing to make a compromise but you know they make a compromise but you know they make a compromise but you know they wouldn't have had you know the same wouldn't have had you know the same wouldn't have had you know the same position that uh khadira has had so you position that uh khadira has had so you position that uh khadira has had so you know I think that again it's it's your know I think that again it's it's your know I think that again it's it's your perspective and where you stand and what perspective and where you stand and what perspective and where you stand and what which bit of History you start to read which bit of History you start to read which bit of History you start to read and that's why I said that you know I and that's why I said that you know I and that's why I said that you know I kind of think Putin kind of think Putin kind of think Putin it's again it's the information the word it's again it's the information the word it's again it's the information the word that he processes it I think most that he processes it I think most that he processes it I think most Russians also can't believe that they've Russians also can't believe that they've Russians also can't believe that they've done something wrong on Ukraine I mean done something wrong on Ukraine I mean done something wrong on Ukraine I mean maybe at this point things are changing maybe at this point things are changing maybe at this point things are changing a bit but that's why there was you know a bit but that's why there was you know a bit but that's why there was you know so much kind of support for this in a so much kind of support for this in a so much kind of support for this in a right way I mean I have Russian friends right way I mean I have Russian friends right way I mean I have Russian friends again I said but look what you know was again I said but look what you know was again I said but look what you know was happening and done yet look what was um happening and done yet look what was um happening and done yet look what was um you know the ukrainians were doing to you know the ukrainians were doing to you know the ukrainians were doing to our guys our guys our guys you know look what was happening to you know look what was happening to you know look what was happening to Russian speakers Russian speakers Russian speakers you know we were Defenders you know we were Defenders you know we were Defenders we were not you know we're not Invaders we were not you know we're not Invaders we were not you know we're not Invaders I think you know again the special I think you know again the special I think you know again the special military operation you know idea now I military operation you know idea now I military operation you know idea now I think it's flipping obviously in the way think it's flipping obviously in the way think it's flipping obviously in the way that with the war going on there but that with the war going on there but that with the war going on there but Putin wasn't you know kind of looking at Putin wasn't you know kind of looking at Putin wasn't you know kind of looking at what would happen what would happen what would happen I mean most of the kind of Glory parts I mean most of the kind of Glory parts I mean most of the kind of Glory parts of Russian history when you kind of go of Russian history when you kind of go of Russian history when you kind of go in you know you chase Napoleon back to in you know you chase Napoleon back to in you know you chase Napoleon back to Paris or you chased the Germans back to Paris or you chased the Germans back to Paris or you chased the Germans back to Berlin you put the flag above the Berlin you put the flag above the Berlin you put the flag above the reichstag that's a very different set of reichstag that's a very different set of reichstag that's a very different set of Affairs only been fighting a defensive Affairs only been fighting a defensive Affairs only been fighting a defensive one you've been invaded from a world one you've been invaded from a world one you've been invaded from a world where you invade someone else and even the most fractured populations and even the most fractured populations like you had in the Soviet Union the

like you had in the Soviet Union the like you had in the Soviet Union the point rally round and you know World War point rally round and you know World War point rally round and you know World War One the the fell apart I mean the Czar One the the fell apart I mean the Czar One the the fell apart I mean the Czar didn't manage to Rally everybody around didn't manage to Rally everybody around didn't manage to Rally everybody around when the whole thing fell apart when the whole thing fell apart when the whole thing fell apart and World War II Stalin had to you know and World War II Stalin had to you know and World War II Stalin had to you know revive nationalism revive nationalism revive nationalism including in the republics in Central including in the republics in Central including in the republics in Central Asia and elsewhere to revive nationalism Asia and elsewhere to revive nationalism Asia and elsewhere to revive nationalism and Ukraine suddenly found nationalism and Ukraine suddenly found nationalism and Ukraine suddenly found nationalism you know in a kind of Senses that's you know in a kind of Senses that's you know in a kind of Senses that's really interesting thing because it's really interesting thing because it's really interesting thing because it's not it's not obvious especially what not it's not obvious especially what not it's not obvious especially what ukrainians went through in the 1930s ukrainians went through in the 1930s ukrainians went through in the 1930s it's not obvious that that I mean my it's not obvious that that I mean my it's not obvious that that I mean my grandfather was Ukrainian and he was grandfather was Ukrainian and he was grandfather was Ukrainian and he was proud to fight proud to fight proud to fight a Ukrainian Jew he was proud to fight a Ukrainian Jew he was proud to fight a Ukrainian Jew he was proud to fight and willing to die for his country it and willing to die for his country it and willing to die for his country it wasn't like his country then was the wasn't like his country then was the wasn't like his country then was the Soviet Union the Soviet Union right Soviet Union the Soviet Union right Soviet Union the Soviet Union right sorry to clarify but he might fight now sorry to clarify but he might fight now sorry to clarify but he might fight now for his country Ukraine yes but it I'm for his country Ukraine yes but it I'm for his country Ukraine yes but it I'm just like uh lingering and the point you just like uh lingering and the point you just like uh lingering and the point you made it was not obvious made it was not obvious made it was not obvious that that United feeling would be there that that United feeling would be there that that United feeling would be there no and again it wouldn't have been no and again it wouldn't have been no and again it wouldn't have been obvious with the Soviet Union so yeah obvious with the Soviet Union so yeah obvious with the Soviet Union so yeah that's what I'm saying sorry I was that's what I'm saying sorry I was that's what I'm saying sorry I was referring to my grandfather with the referring to my grandfather with the referring to my grandfather with the Soviet Union we're both saying the exact Soviet Union we're both saying the exact Soviet Union we're both saying the exact same thing yeah no yeah it's a really same thing yeah no yeah it's a really same thing yeah no yeah it's a really powerful thing because I take it because powerful thing because I take it because powerful thing because I take it because you take history as it happened you take history as it happened you take history as it happened you don't realize it's going to happen you don't realize it's going to happen you don't realize it's going to happen differently it's kind of it's fast it's differently it's kind of it's fast it's differently it's kind of it's fast it's that whole counterfactual right yeah that whole counterfactual right yeah that whole counterfactual right yeah yeah because I mean if you if you've yeah because I mean if you if you've yeah because I mean if you if you've kind of that's that's why we all need in kind of that's that's why we all need in kind of that's that's why we all need in the United States to really examine our the United States to really examine our the United States to really examine our own history

own history own history because you know there's a lot of because you know there's a lot of because you know there's a lot of lessons from that lessons from that lessons from that but you know we we should treat very but you know we we should treat very but you know we we should treat very cautiously it doesn't mean that you know cautiously it doesn't mean that you know cautiously it doesn't mean that you know history repeats or even Rhymes you know history repeats or even Rhymes you know history repeats or even Rhymes you know the old Axiom all the time but there are the old Axiom all the time but there are the old Axiom all the time but there are a lot of things that you can take away a lot of things that you can take away a lot of things that you can take away differently from differently from differently from putting a different perspective in a putting a different perspective in a putting a different perspective in a different slant on the same set of different slant on the same set of different slant on the same set of events I mean I was used to wonder like events I mean I was used to wonder like events I mean I was used to wonder like how many books can be written on the how many books can be written on the how many books can be written on the French Revolution or even on the Russian French Revolution or even on the Russian French Revolution or even on the Russian Revolution you know I studied with Revolution you know I studied with Revolution you know I studied with Richard pipes I remember he was really Richard pipes I remember he was really Richard pipes I remember he was really offended after he'd written his grip offended after he'd written his grip offended after he'd written his grip microserpas on the Russian Revolution microserpas on the Russian Revolution microserpas on the Russian Revolution two volumes other people would you know two volumes other people would you know two volumes other people would you know kind of write about the Russian kind of write about the Russian kind of write about the Russian Revolution so I've written it all and I Revolution so I've written it all and I Revolution so I've written it all and I thought well actually maybe I haven't thought well actually maybe I haven't thought well actually maybe I haven't you know it's like that might be some you know it's like that might be some you know it's like that might be some completely different angle there that completely different angle there that completely different angle there that you haven't really thought of and that's you haven't really thought of and that's you haven't really thought of and that's Putin you know I remember peskov saying Putin you know I remember peskov saying Putin you know I remember peskov saying Putin reads history all the time Russian Putin reads history all the time Russian Putin reads history all the time Russian history and I thought well maybe she'd history and I thought well maybe she'd history and I thought well maybe she'd read some world history you know maybe read some world history you know maybe read some world history you know maybe he should you know kind of uh read some he should you know kind of uh read some he should you know kind of uh read some European authors on Russian history not European authors on Russian history not European authors on Russian history not just you know reading La manosa for you just you know reading La manosa for you just you know reading La manosa for you know Russian know Russian know Russian um historians on Russian history because um historians on Russian history because um historians on Russian history because you might see something from a very you might see something from a very you might see something from a very different perspective and look in the different perspective and look in the different perspective and look in the United States made a massive mistake in United States made a massive mistake in United States made a massive mistake in Vietnam right Vietnam right Vietnam right I mean there's so Vietnam is kind of I mean there's so Vietnam is kind of I mean there's so Vietnam is kind of weak manipulated by you know kind of weak manipulated by you know kind of weak manipulated by you know kind of external forces China's Soviet Union external forces China's Soviet Union external forces China's Soviet Union but the Vietnamese fought for their own but the Vietnamese fought for their own but the Vietnamese fought for their own country country country they suddenly became Vietnamese and Ho they suddenly became Vietnamese and Ho they suddenly became Vietnamese and Ho Chi Minh became you know gonna basically Chi Minh became you know gonna basically Chi Minh became you know gonna basically a kind of a wartime fighter and leader a kind of a wartime fighter and leader a kind of a wartime fighter and leader you know in a way that you know perhaps you know in a way that you know perhaps you know in a way that you know perhaps people wouldn't have understood either people wouldn't have understood either people wouldn't have understood either you said uh you know it's these men have you said uh you know it's these men have you said uh you know it's these men have massive mistake uh in Vietnam in that

massive mistake uh in Vietnam in that massive mistake uh in Vietnam in that for some reason sprung a thought in my for some reason sprung a thought in my for some reason sprung a thought in my head head head as the United States since World War II as the United States since World War II as the United States since World War II uh had anything that's not a mistake in uh had anything that's not a mistake in uh had anything that's not a mistake in terms of military operations uh abroad terms of military operations uh abroad terms of military operations uh abroad um I I suppose all the ones that are um I I suppose all the ones that are um I I suppose all the ones that are successes successes successes we don't even know about probably so we don't even know about probably so we don't even know about probably so it's like very fast military operations it's like very fast military operations it's like very fast military operations I mean Korea is divided I mean I don't I mean Korea is divided I mean I don't I mean Korea is divided I mean I don't know if it's successful but you know you know if it's successful but you know you know if it's successful but you know you know kind of I mean there was a solution know kind of I mean there was a solution know kind of I mean there was a solution found that you know some people are found that you know some people are found that you know some people are promoting you know in this case as well promoting you know in this case as well promoting you know in this case as well of a sort of division and a you know the of a sort of division and a you know the of a sort of division and a you know the DMZ and you know one side over the other DMZ and you know one side over the other DMZ and you know one side over the other and you know kind of perpetuating a and you know kind of perpetuating a and you know kind of perpetuating a division which division which division which particularly successful but if you think particularly successful but if you think particularly successful but if you think about World War one and World War II the about World War one and World War II the about World War one and World War II the United States came in you know on some United States came in you know on some United States came in you know on some very specific sets of circumstances in very specific sets of circumstances in very specific sets of circumstances in World War one they did kind of come in World War one they did kind of come in World War one they did kind of come in to help you know kind of liberate you to help you know kind of liberate you to help you know kind of liberate you know parts of Europe France and you know know parts of Europe France and you know know parts of Europe France and you know kind of this is the UK and you know kind of this is the UK and you know kind of this is the UK and you know everything else Great Britain and the everything else Great Britain and the everything else Great Britain and the war towards the end of it World War II war towards the end of it World War II war towards the end of it World War II you know if there was that whole debate you know if there was that whole debate you know if there was that whole debate about whether the United States should about whether the United States should about whether the United States should even be part of the war I mean we know even be part of the war I mean we know even be part of the war I mean we know it wasn't thought to you know overturn it wasn't thought to you know overturn it wasn't thought to you know overturn the Holocaust and all of the kind of the Holocaust and all of the kind of the Holocaust and all of the kind of things you kind of wish it would be things you kind of wish it would be things you kind of wish it would be fought for but it was because of Pearl fought for but it was because of Pearl fought for but it was because of Pearl Harbor and you know the Japanese pulling Harbor and you know the Japanese pulling Harbor and you know the Japanese pulling in but I mean ultimately in but I mean ultimately in but I mean ultimately it was easy to explain it was easy to explain it was easy to explain why you were there you know particularly why you were there you know particularly why you were there you know particularly after Pearl Harbor and what had happened after Pearl Harbor and what had happened after Pearl Harbor and what had happened it was harder to explain Vietnam and it was harder to explain Vietnam and it was harder to explain Vietnam and career and you know many that there career and you know many that there career and you know many that there wasn't that's kind of going to be a wasn't that's kind of going to be a wasn't that's kind of going to be a problem for Putin that's why there is a problem for Putin that's why there is a problem for Putin that's why there is a problem for Putin all of his problem for Putin all of his problem for Putin all of his explanations of

explanations of explanations of being questioned being questioned being questioned you know started off on NATO or this or you know started off on NATO or this or you know started off on NATO or this or that or the other and you know kind of that or the other and you know kind of that or the other and you know kind of all liberating you know Ukraine from all liberating you know Ukraine from all liberating you know Ukraine from Nazis or you know kind of basically Nazis or you know kind of basically Nazis or you know kind of basically stopping the persecution of Russian stopping the persecution of Russian stopping the persecution of Russian speakers and all of this has now got speakers and all of this has now got speakers and all of this has now got lost in just this horrific destruction lost in just this horrific destruction lost in just this horrific destruction and that's what happened in Vietnam as and that's what happened in Vietnam as and that's what happened in Vietnam as well well well I became you know a a great degradation I became you know a a great degradation I became you know a a great degradation of the Russian military with atrocities of the Russian military with atrocities of the Russian military with atrocities and you know people wondering why on and you know people wondering why on and you know people wondering why on Earth the United States was in Vietnam Earth the United States was in Vietnam Earth the United States was in Vietnam I mean even that kind of happened in I mean even that kind of happened in I mean even that kind of happened in Britain in the colonial you know kind of Britain in the colonial you know kind of Britain in the colonial you know kind of pivot as well why was the United Kingdom pivot as well why was the United Kingdom pivot as well why was the United Kingdom doing you know committing atrocities and doing you know committing atrocities and doing you know committing atrocities and you know kind of basically fighting you know kind of basically fighting you know kind of basically fighting these colonial wars these colonial wars these colonial wars Northern Ireland why was the United Northern Ireland why was the United Northern Ireland why was the United Kingdom still Kingdom still Kingdom still you know kind of military occupying you know kind of military occupying you know kind of military occupying Island Cyprus there's all kinds of you Island Cyprus there's all kinds of you Island Cyprus there's all kinds of you know instances where we look at these know instances where we look at these know instances where we look at these things because what Russia is doing now things because what Russia is doing now things because what Russia is doing now Putin is trying to occupy Putin is trying to occupy Putin is trying to occupy another country irrespective of you know another country irrespective of you know another country irrespective of you know kind of the historical linkages and you kind of the historical linkages and you kind of the historical linkages and you know the kind of the larger meta know the kind of the larger meta know the kind of the larger meta narratives that he's trying to put narratives that he's trying to put narratives that he's trying to put forward there forward there forward there what brawl did the United States play in what brawl did the United States play in what brawl did the United States play in the lead up and the actual invasion of the lead up and the actual invasion of the lead up and the actual invasion of um of Ukraine by Russia a lot of people um of Ukraine by Russia a lot of people um of Ukraine by Russia a lot of people say that I mean obviously Vladimir Putin say that I mean obviously Vladimir Putin say that I mean obviously Vladimir Putin says that part of the reason the says that part of the reason the says that part of the reason the invasion had to happen is because of invasion had to happen is because of invasion had to happen is because of security concerns over the expansion of

security concerns over the expansion of security concerns over the expansion of NATO NATO NATO and and and there is a lot of people that say that there is a lot of people that say that there is a lot of people that say that this was provoked by NATO this was provoked by NATO this was provoked by NATO do you think there's some legitimacy to do you think there's some legitimacy to do you think there's some legitimacy to that case that case that case look I think the whole situation here is look I think the whole situation here is look I think the whole situation here is very complicated you have to take a much very complicated you have to take a much very complicated you have to take a much longer view than you know what happened longer view than you know what happened longer view than you know what happened in you know 2008 with the open door for in you know 2008 with the open door for in you know 2008 with the open door for Ukraine and Georgia which actually by Ukraine and Georgia which actually by Ukraine and Georgia which actually by the way I thought was a strategic the way I thought was a strategic the way I thought was a strategic blunder just to be very clear because it blunder just to be very clear because it blunder just to be very clear because it wasn't any kind of thinking through wasn't any kind of thinking through wasn't any kind of thinking through about what the implications of that about what the implications of that about what the implications of that would be and you know what would would be and you know what would would be and you know what would actually mean for your current security actually mean for your current security actually mean for your current security and also bearing in mind what you know and also bearing in mind what you know and also bearing in mind what you know Putin had already said about NATO Putin had already said about NATO Putin had already said about NATO expansion they they came on the wake of expansion they they came on the wake of expansion they they came on the wake of the uh recognition by the United States the uh recognition by the United States the uh recognition by the United States pretty unilaterally of Kosovo and it pretty unilaterally of Kosovo and it pretty unilaterally of Kosovo and it also comes in the work of Laura also comes in the work of Laura also comes in the work of Laura mentioned before the inversion of Iraq mentioned before the inversion of Iraq mentioned before the inversion of Iraq which really is very which really is very which really is very important for understanding Putin's important for understanding Putin's important for understanding Putin's psyche psyche psyche so I think you know we have to go back so I think you know we have to go back so I think you know we have to go back you know much further than it's not just you know much further than it's not just you know much further than it's not just talking about kind of NATO and what that talking about kind of NATO and what that talking about kind of NATO and what that means means means NATO is part of the whole NATO is part of the whole NATO is part of the whole package of Ukraine going in a different package of Ukraine going in a different package of Ukraine going in a different direction from Russia just as though is direction from Russia just as though is direction from Russia just as though is the European Union remember the the European Union remember the the European Union remember the annexation of Crimea comes after annexation of Crimea comes after annexation of Crimea comes after Ukraine has sought an Association group Ukraine has sought an Association group Ukraine has sought an Association group agreement with the European Union agreement with the European Union agreement with the European Union not with an Airtel at that particular not with an Airtel at that particular not with an Airtel at that particular Point even though you know the EU on the Point even though you know the EU on the Point even though you know the EU on the security common security defense policy security common security defense policy security common security defense policy um basically house all kinds of um basically house all kinds of um basically house all kinds of connections with NATO you know various connections with NATO you know various connections with NATO you know various different levels in European security different levels in European security different levels in European security front it was all about Europe and front it was all about Europe and front it was all about Europe and going on a different economic and going on a different economic and going on a different economic and political and ultimately legal path

political and ultimately legal path political and ultimately legal path because if you have because if you have because if you have an association agreement eventually you an association agreement eventually you an association agreement eventually you get into the aqui committee turn and it get into the aqui committee turn and it get into the aqui committee turn and it just transforms the country completely just transforms the country completely just transforms the country completely and Ukraine is no longer the Ukraine of and Ukraine is no longer the Ukraine of and Ukraine is no longer the Ukraine of the Soviet period or the Russian Empire the Soviet period or the Russian Empire the Soviet period or the Russian Empire period it becomes you know on a period it becomes you know on a period it becomes you know on a different trajectory like Czech Republic different trajectory like Czech Republic different trajectory like Czech Republic Slovakia Poland you know another country Slovakia Poland you know another country Slovakia Poland you know another country becomes a different place it moves into becomes a different place it moves into becomes a different place it moves into a different space and that's part of it a different space and that's part of it a different space and that's part of it but if you go back again but if you go back again but if you go back again to the period at the very beginning of to the period at the very beginning of to the period at the very beginning of the 1990s after the dissolution of the the 1990s after the dissolution of the the 1990s after the dissolution of the Soviet Union well there's no discussion Soviet Union well there's no discussion Soviet Union well there's no discussion about NATO at that point in NATO about NATO at that point in NATO about NATO at that point in NATO enlargement enlargement enlargement there is a lot of pressure again as I've there is a lot of pressure again as I've there is a lot of pressure again as I've said before by nationalist elements on said before by nationalist elements on said before by nationalist elements on Ukraine trying to bring it back in the Ukraine trying to bring it back in the Ukraine trying to bring it back in the fold fold fold and wanting to make what was then you and wanting to make what was then you and wanting to make what was then you know this mechanism for divorce more of know this mechanism for divorce more of know this mechanism for divorce more of a mechanism for remanaged Commonwealth a mechanism for remanaged Commonwealth a mechanism for remanaged Commonwealth of independent states of independent states of independent states and in the early 1990s when and in the early 1990s when and in the early 1990s when Ukraine became an independent state it Ukraine became an independent state it Ukraine became an independent state it inherited that nuclear Arsenal from the inherited that nuclear Arsenal from the inherited that nuclear Arsenal from the Soviet Union basically whatever was Soviet Union basically whatever was Soviet Union basically whatever was stationed or positioned in Ukrainian stationed or positioned in Ukrainian stationed or positioned in Ukrainian territory at the time became Ukraine's territory at the time became Ukraine's territory at the time became Ukraine's strategic and you know kind of basically strategic and you know kind of basically strategic and you know kind of basically intermediate and tactical nuclear intermediate and tactical nuclear intermediate and tactical nuclear weapons and you know in the United weapons and you know in the United weapons and you know in the United States at the time you know we had all States at the time you know we had all States at the time you know we had all this Panic about this Panic about this Panic about what was going to happen with all of what was going to happen with all of what was going to happen with all of that I mean I think you know I was a that I mean I think you know I was a that I mean I think you know I was a scientist and you know kind of scientist and you know kind of scientist and you know kind of technically it would have been difficult technically it would have been difficult technically it would have been difficult for Ukraine to actually use this I mean for Ukraine to actually use this I mean for Ukraine to actually use this I mean the targeting was you know done the targeting was you know done the targeting was you know done centrally they were actually stationed centrally they were actually stationed centrally they were actually stationed there but nonetheless Ukraine like there but nonetheless Ukraine like there but nonetheless Ukraine like Belarus and Kazakhstan to become nuclear

Belarus and Kazakhstan to become nuclear Belarus and Kazakhstan to become nuclear powers powers powers and you know ashkata the former U.S and you know ashkata the former U.S and you know ashkata the former U.S defense I could use just died tragically defense I could use just died tragically defense I could use just died tragically and Dave was talking about and Dave was talking about and Dave was talking about um you know uh uh talking together today um you know uh uh talking together today um you know uh uh talking together today was part of a whole team of Americans was part of a whole team of Americans was part of a whole team of Americans and and others who and and others who and and others who you know tried to work with Ukraine you know tried to work with Ukraine you know tried to work with Ukraine Belarus and Kazakhstan to get them to Belarus and Kazakhstan to get them to Belarus and Kazakhstan to get them to give up the nuclear weapons give up the nuclear weapons give up the nuclear weapons and back in the early period of that 93 and back in the early period of that 93 and back in the early period of that 93 94 94 94 you go back and I mean I was writing you go back and I mean I was writing you go back and I mean I was writing about this at the time I wrote a report about this at the time I wrote a report about this at the time I wrote a report called Back in the USSR which is you called Back in the USSR which is you called Back in the USSR which is you know kind of on the website the Kennedy know kind of on the website the Kennedy know kind of on the website the Kennedy School with some other colleagues School with some other colleagues School with some other colleagues and we were monitoring how there was all and we were monitoring how there was all and we were monitoring how there was all these accusations coming out of of these accusations coming out of of these accusations coming out of of Moscow the defense um Ministry and the Moscow the defense um Ministry and the Moscow the defense um Ministry and the Duma the the Parliament and others that Duma the the Parliament and others that Duma the the Parliament and others that Ukraine was trying to find a way of Ukraine was trying to find a way of Ukraine was trying to find a way of making a dirty bomb using its nuclear making a dirty bomb using its nuclear making a dirty bomb using its nuclear weapons you know becoming a menace um weapons you know becoming a menace um weapons you know becoming a menace um and you know kind of Ukraine might have and you know kind of Ukraine might have and you know kind of Ukraine might have to be brought to order to be brought to order to be brought to order so a lot of the Dynamics we're seeing so a lot of the Dynamics we're seeing so a lot of the Dynamics we're seeing now were happening then irrespective of now were happening then irrespective of now were happening then irrespective of NATO NATO NATO basically the the problem was always basically the the problem was always basically the the problem was always Ukraine getting away Yeltsin himself Ukraine getting away Yeltsin himself Ukraine getting away Yeltsin himself when he unraveled the Soviet Union when he unraveled the Soviet Union when he unraveled the Soviet Union didn't really want it to unravel but he didn't really want it to unravel but he didn't really want it to unravel but he didn't have the wherewithal to bring you didn't have the wherewithal to bring you didn't have the wherewithal to bring you know the countries back again Russia was know the countries back again Russia was know the countries back again Russia was weak after the collapse of the Soviet weak after the collapse of the Soviet weak after the collapse of the Soviet Union its economy imploded Union its economy imploded Union its economy imploded um it had to give sovereignty to all of um it had to give sovereignty to all of um it had to give sovereignty to all of these constituent parts of the Russian these constituent parts of the Russian these constituent parts of the Russian Federation in terms of the sort of Federation in terms of the sort of Federation in terms of the sort of devolution of authority it had the war devolution of authority it had the war devolution of authority it had the war in chechnya which Yeltsin stupidly in chechnya which Yeltsin stupidly in chechnya which Yeltsin stupidly sparked off in sparked off in sparked off in 1994. you had Tata Stan one of the the 1994. you had Tata Stan one of the the 1994. you had Tata Stan one of the the regions the old Rich regions

regions the old Rich regions regions the old Rich regions um you know basically resting out a kind um you know basically resting out a kind um you know basically resting out a kind of a a bilateral treaty with Moscow you of a a bilateral treaty with Moscow you of a a bilateral treaty with Moscow you had the whole place was kind of seemed had the whole place was kind of seemed had the whole place was kind of seemed like it was falling apart so that you like it was falling apart so that you like it was falling apart so that you know you couldn't do anything on Ukraine know you couldn't do anything on Ukraine know you couldn't do anything on Ukraine because you didn't have the wherewithal because you didn't have the wherewithal because you didn't have the wherewithal to do it and then when you know kind of to do it and then when you know kind of to do it and then when you know kind of basically Russia starts to get its act basically Russia starts to get its act basically Russia starts to get its act back together again all of these back together again all of these back together again all of these security security security nationalist types who had never wanted nationalist types who had never wanted nationalist types who had never wanted Ukraine or Belarus some older or Ukraine or Belarus some older or Ukraine or Belarus some older or anywhere else to kind of move away they anywhere else to kind of move away they anywhere else to kind of move away they didn't worry that much about Central didn't worry that much about Central didn't worry that much about Central Asia to be frank but they know they did Asia to be frank but they know they did Asia to be frank but they know they did one and you know the um the core States one and you know the um the core States one and you know the um the core States in their view to come back and Moldova in their view to come back and Moldova in their view to come back and Moldova was part of that even it's not Slavic was part of that even it's not Slavic was part of that even it's not Slavic but you know they wanted Belarus and but you know they wanted Belarus and but you know they wanted Belarus and Northern Kazakhstan and probably Northern Kazakhstan and probably Northern Kazakhstan and probably Kazakhstan as well which wasn't really Kazakhstan as well which wasn't really Kazakhstan as well which wasn't really thought about being part of Central Asia thought about being part of Central Asia thought about being part of Central Asia back in the fold as close as possible so back in the fold as close as possible so back in the fold as close as possible so anything that gave those countries an anything that gave those countries an anything that gave those countries an alternative was seen as negative alternative was seen as negative alternative was seen as negative uh it you know could have been an uh it you know could have been an uh it you know could have been an association with China you know of them association with China you know of them association with China you know of them joining you know kind of an association joining you know kind of an association joining you know kind of an association with Latin America or Africa or with Latin America or Africa or with Latin America or Africa or something else like that but of course something else like that but of course something else like that but of course NATO has all of those larger NATO has all of those larger NATO has all of those larger connotations of it being you know the connotations of it being you know the connotations of it being you know the Cold War uh opposing entity and Putin Cold War uh opposing entity and Putin Cold War uh opposing entity and Putin has always seen NATO as being the direct has always seen NATO as being the direct has always seen NATO as being the direct correlation of the Warsaw Pact which is correlation of the Warsaw Pact which is correlation of the Warsaw Pact which is in other words just something dominated in other words just something dominated in other words just something dominated completely by the United States completely by the United States completely by the United States now that of course is my getting back to now that of course is my getting back to now that of course is my getting back to Trump again Trump was always going you Trump again Trump was always going you Trump again Trump was always going you know to the Europeans if this is really know to the Europeans if this is really know to the Europeans if this is really supposed to be collective security in a supposed to be collective security in a supposed to be collective security in a mutual defense pact why are you guys not mutual defense pact why are you guys not mutual defense pact why are you guys not paying you know why does the United paying you know why does the United paying you know why does the United States pay for everything but you know States pay for everything but you know States pay for everything but you know NATO was actually conceived as NATO was actually conceived as NATO was actually conceived as collective defense you know Mutual

collective defense you know Mutual collective defense you know Mutual Security and it was set up by you know Security and it was set up by you know Security and it was set up by you know the United States along with the UK and the United States along with the UK and the United States along with the UK and France and you know Germany and turkey France and you know Germany and turkey France and you know Germany and turkey and you know other countries and we see and you know other countries and we see and you know other countries and we see that now with the entry of Finland and that now with the entry of Finland and that now with the entry of Finland and Sweden they didn't have to join it or Sweden they didn't have to join it or Sweden they didn't have to join it or they didn't want to join it a long time they didn't want to join it a long time they didn't want to join it a long time they wanted to partner with it just like they wanted to partner with it just like they wanted to partner with it just like Israel and the other countries partner Israel and the other countries partner Israel and the other countries partner with um NATO but once they thought that with um NATO but once they thought that with um NATO but once they thought that their security was really at risk they their security was really at risk they their security was really at risk they wanted to be part of it wanted to be part of it wanted to be part of it and so you know kind of you're now and so you know kind of you're now and so you know kind of you're now really seeing you know that Nate was really seeing you know that Nate was really seeing you know that Nate was something other than just being something other than just being something other than just being um you know a creature or an instrument um you know a creature or an instrument um you know a creature or an instrument of the United States but that's how of the United States but that's how of the United States but that's how Putin always saw it so you know what Putin always saw it so you know what Putin always saw it so you know what this debate about Metro is all about or this debate about Metro is all about or this debate about Metro is all about or Russia being provoked Russia being provoked Russia being provoked is wanting to kind of return to an old is wanting to kind of return to an old is wanting to kind of return to an old superpower superpower superpower bipolar relationship where everything is bipolar relationship where everything is bipolar relationship where everything is negotiated with the United States it's negotiated with the United States it's negotiated with the United States it's to try to deny that Ukraine or Belarus to try to deny that Ukraine or Belarus to try to deny that Ukraine or Belarus well Belarus has been absorbed by this well Belarus has been absorbed by this well Belarus has been absorbed by this point you know by Russia or Moldova or point you know by Russia or Moldova or point you know by Russia or Moldova or Kazakhstan or any of the other countries Kazakhstan or any of the other countries Kazakhstan or any of the other countries have any kind of agency not even Poland have any kind of agency not even Poland have any kind of agency not even Poland or Hungary or you know kind of France or Hungary or you know kind of France or Hungary or you know kind of France and Britain and Britain and Britain for years and years and years for years and years and years for years and years and years senior people like Putin and people senior people like Putin and people senior people like Putin and people around the Kremlin have demanded a around the Kremlin have demanded a around the Kremlin have demanded a return to the kind of what they call the return to the kind of what they call the return to the kind of what they call the little concert of Europe or the concert little concert of Europe or the concert little concert of Europe or the concert of Vienna where the big guys of Vienna where the big guys of Vienna where the big guys which now means the United States and which now means the United States and which now means the United States and Russia just sit down and thrash Russia just sit down and thrash Russia just sit down and thrash everything out everything out everything out and so I mean Putin by saying look it and so I mean Putin by saying look it and so I mean Putin by saying look it was provoked it's the United States it's was provoked it's the United States it's was provoked it's the United States it's NATO it's a proxy war or it's it's this

NATO it's a proxy war or it's it's this NATO it's a proxy war or it's it's this or it's that or this is going to be a or it's that or this is going to be a or it's that or this is going to be a nuclear confrontation it's like the nuclear confrontation it's like the nuclear confrontation it's like the Cuban Missile Crisis the Euro Missile Cuban Missile Crisis the Euro Missile Cuban Missile Crisis the Euro Missile Crisis it's basically just saying you Crisis it's basically just saying you Crisis it's basically just saying you know I want to go back to when the know I want to go back to when the know I want to go back to when the Soviet Union the United States worked Soviet Union the United States worked Soviet Union the United States worked things out I want to go back to the things out I want to go back to the things out I want to go back to the whole you know period of the 1980s when whole you know period of the 1980s when whole you know period of the 1980s when Gorbachev and Reagan just kind of got Gorbachev and Reagan just kind of got Gorbachev and Reagan just kind of got together and figured things out or even together and figured things out or even together and figured things out or even better back to Yalta Potsdam and Tehran better back to Yalta Potsdam and Tehran better back to Yalta Potsdam and Tehran and the big you know meetings and the big you know meetings and the big you know meetings at the end of World War II where we at the end of World War II where we at the end of World War II where we resolved the whole future security we've resolved the whole future security we've resolved the whole future security we've had a war we've had the Cold War now had a war we've had the Cold War now had a war we've had the Cold War now we've got another War we've got a real we've got another War we've got a real we've got another War we've got a real war Hot War we've got a war in Ukraine war Hot War we've got a war in Ukraine war Hot War we've got a war in Ukraine it should be the United States and it should be the United States and it should be the United States and Russia that sort this out so this is Russia that sort this out so this is Russia that sort this out so this is where we see the United States waffling where we see the United States waffling where we see the United States waffling about as well trying to kind of like about as well trying to kind of like about as well trying to kind of like figure out how to handle this because figure out how to handle this because figure out how to handle this because it has to be handled in a way that it has to be handled in a way that it has to be handled in a way that Ukraine has agency because if Ukraine Ukraine has agency because if Ukraine Ukraine has agency because if Ukraine doesn't have urgency and nobody else has doesn't have urgency and nobody else has doesn't have urgency and nobody else has urgency either nobody else has any kind urgency either nobody else has any kind urgency either nobody else has any kind of decision-making power of decision-making power of decision-making power and you know we have an environment in and you know we have an environment in and you know we have an environment in which Putin thinks that there's only which Putin thinks that there's only which Putin thinks that there's only really three players there's the United really three players there's the United really three players there's the United States and Russia and China and maybe States and Russia and China and maybe States and Russia and China and maybe even occasion might be India and perhaps even occasion might be India and perhaps even occasion might be India and perhaps Brazil or some other South Africa or Brazil or some other South Africa or Brazil or some other South Africa or some other country like maybe the brics some other country like maybe the brics some other country like maybe the brics at some point but you know ultimately at some point but you know ultimately at some point but you know ultimately it's like the oldest big Powers resolve it's like the oldest big Powers resolve it's like the oldest big Powers resolve everything and so this war is also about everything and so this war is also about everything and so this war is also about Russia's right Putin's right you know to Russia's right Putin's right you know to Russia's right Putin's right you know to determine things you know strong man to determine things you know strong man to determine things you know strong man to strong man big country to Big Country strong man big country to Big Country strong man big country to Big Country and you know determine you know where and you know determine you know where and you know determine you know where things happen next that's why he's things happen next that's why he's things happen next that's why he's talking about things being provoked it's talking about things being provoked it's talking about things being provoked it's being the United States fault but aren't being the United States fault but aren't being the United States fault but aren't there parts of the United States

there parts of the United States there parts of the United States establishment that likes that kind of establishment that likes that kind of establishment that likes that kind of three-party view of the world oh there's three-party view of the world oh there's three-party view of the world oh there's always going to be people who like that always going to be people who like that always going to be people who like that part that part that part that which of course there is which of course there is which of course there is but then they don't necessarily dominate but then they don't necessarily dominate but then they don't necessarily dominate that's the kind of thing that people that's the kind of thing that people that's the kind of thing that people kind of think about I mean you know kind of think about I mean you know kind of think about I mean you know Putin can you know read you know all the Putin can you know read you know all the Putin can you know read you know all the various articles and hear the kind of various articles and hear the kind of various articles and hear the kind of pronouncements of people but you know pronouncements of people but you know pronouncements of people but you know this gets back to you know the way that this gets back to you know the way that this gets back to you know the way that the United States operates the United States operates the United States operates you know put Putin saw that you know you know put Putin saw that you know you know put Putin saw that you know Trump wanted to have a you know top-down Trump wanted to have a you know top-down Trump wanted to have a you know top-down you know vertical of power you know vertical of power you know vertical of power and other presidents have wanted to have and other presidents have wanted to have and other presidents have wanted to have that but the United States is a pretty that but the United States is a pretty that but the United States is a pretty messy place and we have all kinds of messy place and we have all kinds of messy place and we have all kinds of different viewpoints now of course we different viewpoints now of course we different viewpoints now of course we know that in Russia everything even know that in Russia everything even know that in Russia everything even criticism the Kremlin is usually fairly criticism the Kremlin is usually fairly criticism the Kremlin is usually fairly orchestrated usually to kind of flush orchestrated usually to kind of flush orchestrated usually to kind of flush out you know what people think about out you know what people think about out you know what people think about things when we had these hardliners things when we had these hardliners things when we had these hardliners saying you know we needed more saying you know we needed more saying you know we needed more destruction of Ukraine not less and that destruction of Ukraine not less and that destruction of Ukraine not less and that you know the Army wasn't doing enough it you know the Army wasn't doing enough it you know the Army wasn't doing enough it was in many respects you know kind of was in many respects you know kind of was in many respects you know kind of encouraged by the Kremlin and to see how encouraged by the Kremlin and to see how encouraged by the Kremlin and to see how people would react to that you know to people would react to that you know to people would react to that you know to kind of actually create a constituency kind of actually create a constituency kind of actually create a constituency for you know being more ruthless uh than for you know being more ruthless uh than for you know being more ruthless uh than you had before because you know they you had before because you know they you had before because you know they wanted to clamp down in the United wanted to clamp down in the United wanted to clamp down in the United States I mean I can say whatever I want States I mean I can say whatever I want States I mean I can say whatever I want it doesn't mean that I'm speaking on it doesn't mean that I'm speaking on it doesn't mean that I'm speaking on behalf of the White House behalf of the White House behalf of the White House and you know even if I have been an and you know even if I have been an and you know even if I have been an advisor to this president that president advisor to this president that president advisor to this president that president and the other doesn't mean I'm you know and the other doesn't mean I'm you know and the other doesn't mean I'm you know basically speaking on behalf of the US basically speaking on behalf of the US basically speaking on behalf of the US government but this is kind of always an government but this is kind of always an government but this is kind of always an assumption from the Russians that you assumption from the Russians that you assumption from the Russians that you know when people know when people know when people you know say this and people do Advocate you know say this and people do Advocate you know say this and people do Advocate one thing or over another that they're one thing or over another that they're one thing or over another that they're you know it's operating there's a lot of

you know it's operating there's a lot of you know it's operating there's a lot of mirror Imaging thinking that you know mirror Imaging thinking that you know mirror Imaging thinking that you know we're operating in the same kind of way we're operating in the same kind of way we're operating in the same kind of way so yes there are of course so yes there are of course so yes there are of course constituencies who think like that and constituencies who think like that and constituencies who think like that and would love it you know to be back to would love it you know to be back to would love it you know to be back to that and there are many people out there that and there are many people out there that and there are many people out there with their own peace plans all kinds of with their own peace plans all kinds of with their own peace plans all kinds of people you know up there yeah to push people you know up there yeah to push people you know up there yeah to push this there does seem to be uh the engine this there does seem to be uh the engine this there does seem to be uh the engine of the military-industrial complex seems of the military-industrial complex seems of the military-industrial complex seems to give some fuel to the Hawks and they to give some fuel to the Hawks and they to give some fuel to the Hawks and they seem to create momentum in government seem to create momentum in government seem to create momentum in government yeah but other people do too I mean yeah but other people do too I mean yeah but other people do too I mean there's always you know kind of a check there's always you know kind of a check there's always you know kind of a check I mean again you believe in the tension I mean again you believe in the tension I mean again you believe in the tension of ideas because I think there was a lot of ideas because I think there was a lot of ideas because I think there was a lot of attention I mean I've seen it I've of attention I mean I've seen it I've of attention I mean I've seen it I've seen it inside of the government now you seen it inside of the government now you seen it inside of the government now you know and people can push back and that's know and people can push back and that's know and people can push back and that's why I speak out and I try to lay it out why I speak out and I try to lay it out why I speak out and I try to lay it out so that everybody can you know kind of so that everybody can you know kind of so that everybody can you know kind of figure out for themselves I said the figure out for themselves I said the figure out for themselves I said the same to you as I say to everybody this same to you as I say to everybody this same to you as I say to everybody this is how I see the situation and you know is how I see the situation and you know is how I see the situation and you know this is you know how we can analyze it this is you know how we can analyze it this is you know how we can analyze it here now look do I think that we've here now look do I think that we've here now look do I think that we've handled you know the whole Russia handled you know the whole Russia handled you know the whole Russia account you know fears account you know fears account you know fears well no we haven't I mean we've we've well no we haven't I mean we've we've well no we haven't I mean we've we've we've taken our eyes off the ball many we've taken our eyes off the ball many we've taken our eyes off the ball many times we've fail to understand the way times we've fail to understand the way times we've fail to understand the way that people like Putin think you know that people like Putin think you know that people like Putin think you know you talked earlier about you know we you talked earlier about you know we you talked earlier about you know we need to have empathy for you know all need to have empathy for you know all need to have empathy for you know all the people who like Trump or like Biden the people who like Trump or like Biden the people who like Trump or like Biden and some other thing we've got to have and some other thing we've got to have and some other thing we've got to have strategic empathy about Putin as well strategic empathy about Putin as well strategic empathy about Putin as well we've got to understand how the guy we've got to understand how the guy we've got to understand how the guy thinks and why he thinks like he does thinks and why he thinks like he does thinks and why he thinks like he does you know he he has got his own context you know he he has got his own context you know he he has got his own context and his own frame and his own rationale and his own frame and his own rationale and his own frame and his own rationale and he is rational he is a rational and he is rational he is a rational and he is rational he is a rational actor in his own context we've got to actor in his own context we've got to actor in his own context we've got to understand that we've got to understand understand that we've got to understand understand that we've got to understand that he would take offense at something

that he would take offense at something that he would take offense at something and he would take action over something and he would take action over something and he would take action over something it doesn't mean to say that you know we it doesn't mean to say that you know we it doesn't mean to say that you know we are necessary to blame by taking actions are necessary to blame by taking actions are necessary to blame by taking actions but we are to blame when we don't but we are to blame when we don't but we are to blame when we don't understand the consequences of things understand the consequences of things understand the consequences of things that we do and act accordingly or you that we do and act accordingly or you that we do and act accordingly or you know take preventative action or know take preventative action or know take preventative action or recognize that something might happen as recognize that something might happen as recognize that something might happen as a result of something so you've been in a result of something so you've been in a result of something so you've been in the room with Putin the room with Putin the room with Putin um let me ask you for some advice um let me ask you for some advice um let me ask you for some advice and it's also just a good philosophical and it's also just a good philosophical and it's also just a good philosophical question for you or for me if I have a question for you or for me if I have a question for you or for me if I have a conversation with Vladimir Putin right conversation with Vladimir Putin right conversation with Vladimir Putin right now can you advise on what questions now can you advise on what questions now can you advise on what questions topics ideas to talk through to him as topics ideas to talk through to him as topics ideas to talk through to him as the leader to him as a human what would the leader to him as a human what would the leader to him as a human what would you like to understand about his mind you like to understand about his mind you like to understand about his mind about his thinking well I said that well I said that it tries to you know reverse things he it tries to you know reverse things he it tries to you know reverse things he wants to hear the questions that that wants to hear the questions that that wants to hear the questions that that people have people have people have because remember because remember because remember he himself at different points has been he himself at different points has been he himself at different points has been a recruiter which is you know the way a recruiter which is you know the way a recruiter which is you know the way that you're operating now as well right that you're operating now as well right that you're operating now as well right you're asking an awful lot of questions you're asking an awful lot of questions you're asking an awful lot of questions your questions also betray you know your questions also betray you know your questions also betray you know often the times that we're where you're often the times that we're where you're often the times that we're where you're thinking about things you know the kind thinking about things you know the kind thinking about things you know the kind of context of context of context um um um you know kind of any kind of dialogue you know kind of any kind of dialogue you know kind of any kind of dialogue like this reveals a lot about the you like this reveals a lot about the you like this reveals a lot about the you know the other person yeah and I've know the other person yeah and I've know the other person yeah and I've actually often you know noticed in these actually often you know noticed in these actually often you know noticed in these settings that Putin likes to have a lot settings that Putin likes to have a lot settings that Putin likes to have a lot of give and take so I think he would of give and take so I think he would of give and take so I think he would actually enjoy having a conversation you actually enjoy having a conversation you actually enjoy having a conversation you know with you but again he would always know with you but again he would always know with you but again he would always be trying to be trying to be trying to influence you inform and influence

influence you inform and influence influence you inform and influence that's kind of you know part of the way that's kind of you know part of the way that's kind of you know part of the way that he always operates that he always operates that he always operates so what you would have to you know be so what you would have to you know be so what you would have to you know be trying to think about so what is it that trying to think about so what is it that trying to think about so what is it that you would want to elicit information you would want to elicit information you would want to elicit information from him you're trying to understand the from him you're trying to understand the from him you're trying to understand the guy's worldview and what we're trying to guy's worldview and what we're trying to guy's worldview and what we're trying to also understand is if there's any room also understand is if there's any room also understand is if there's any room there where he might compromise on there where he might compromise on there where he might compromise on something something something you know so if your goal was to go in you know so if your goal was to go in you know so if your goal was to go in there you know to talk about Ukraine at there you know to talk about Ukraine at there you know to talk about Ukraine at this particular moment this particular moment this particular moment I mean one of the problems that I've I mean one of the problems that I've I mean one of the problems that I've often seen in the sort of the meetings often seen in the sort of the meetings often seen in the sort of the meetings we've had with Putin just ends up in we've had with Putin just ends up in we've had with Putin just ends up in sort of mutual recriminations sort of mutual recriminations sort of mutual recriminations you know kind of know well what about you know kind of know well what about you know kind of know well what about what you've done or no you've done that what you've done or no you've done that what you've done or no you've done that about you know and um there's always about you know and um there's always about you know and um there's always this what about it I mean it often said this what about it I mean it often said this what about it I mean it often said well your thing that I've done this but well your thing that I've done this but well your thing that I've done this but you've done that the United States you've done that the United States you've done that the United States invaded Iraq what's the difference invaded Iraq what's the difference invaded Iraq what's the difference between you know what I'm doing and all between you know what I'm doing and all between you know what I'm doing and all of the things that you've been doing of the things that you've been doing of the things that you've been doing here here here I mean what you would have to try to do I mean what you would have to try to do I mean what you would have to try to do is kind of elicit information about why is kind of elicit information about why is kind of elicit information about why or what he is thinking about this or what he is thinking about this or what he is thinking about this particular moment in time and why he particular moment in time and why he particular moment in time and why he thinks it thinks it thinks it yeah the what about USM is a is a yeah the what about USM is a is a yeah the what about USM is a is a failure case I think that shows failure case I think that shows failure case I think that shows from all the interviews I've seen that from all the interviews I've seen that from all the interviews I've seen that with him that just shows that he doesn't with him that just shows that he doesn't with him that just shows that he doesn't trust the person on the other side no he trust the person on the other side no he trust the person on the other side no he doesn't right but I I I'm not cynical doesn't right but I I I'm not cynical doesn't right but I I I'm not cynical like people's they they seem to think like people's they they seem to think like people's they they seem to think he's some kind of KGB agent that doesn't he's some kind of KGB agent that doesn't he's some kind of KGB agent that doesn't trust anybody I disagree I think trust anybody I disagree I think trust anybody I disagree I think everybody's human everybody's human everybody's human and from my perspective I'm worried and from my perspective I'm worried and from my perspective I'm worried about about about what I've seen is I think whether it's

what I've seen is I think whether it's what I've seen is I think whether it's covid whether it's covid whether it's covid whether it's uh uh uh are there aspects that I'm not aware of are there aspects that I'm not aware of are there aspects that I'm not aware of leading up to the invasion he seems to leading up to the invasion he seems to leading up to the invasion he seems to be less willing to have uh charismatic be less willing to have uh charismatic be less willing to have uh charismatic back and forth dialogue yeah an open back and forth dialogue yeah an open back and forth dialogue yeah an open discussion you know actually you know I discussion you know actually you know I discussion you know actually you know I said you asked me before about you know said you asked me before about you know said you asked me before about you know that issue of trust and he often says he that issue of trust and he often says he that issue of trust and he often says he only trusts himself only trusts himself only trusts himself and I said you know he's often in a and I said you know he's often in a and I said you know he's often in a distrustful of people but he just trusts distrustful of people but he just trusts distrustful of people but he just trusts some people for certain things where he some people for certain things where he some people for certain things where he knows it's within their competence knows it's within their competence knows it's within their competence yeah so yeah so yeah so he has people he trusts to do things he has people he trusts to do things he has people he trusts to do things because you know he knows they'll do because you know he knows they'll do because you know he knows they'll do them and he knows that they'll do them them and he knows that they'll do them them and he knows that they'll do them well which is why you know he has his well which is why you know he has his well which is why you know he has his you know old buddies from you know Saint you know old buddies from you know Saint you know old buddies from you know Saint Petersburg because he's known for a very Petersburg because he's known for a very Petersburg because he's known for a very long time and he knows that they want long time and he knows that they want long time and he knows that they want you know try to pull a fast one over him you know try to pull a fast one over him you know try to pull a fast one over him but he also knows their strengths and but he also knows their strengths and but he also knows their strengths and their weaknesses and what they can be their weaknesses and what they can be their weaknesses and what they can be trusted to do I mean he's learning that trusted to do I mean he's learning that trusted to do I mean he's learning that you know some of the people in the you know some of the people in the you know some of the people in the military that he you know thought were military that he you know thought were military that he you know thought were competent or people on other things are competent or people on other things are competent or people on other things are not right that they're and eating tends not right that they're and eating tends not right that they're and eating tends to actually have a lot of loyalty to to actually have a lot of loyalty to to actually have a lot of loyalty to people as well or he also kind of thinks people as well or he also kind of thinks people as well or he also kind of thinks it's best to keep him inside the tent it's best to keep him inside the tent it's best to keep him inside the tent and outside and he moves them around you and outside and he moves them around you and outside and he moves them around you know he kind of okay you know he gives know he kind of okay you know he gives know he kind of okay you know he gives them multiple chances to redeem them multiple chances to redeem them multiple chances to redeem themselves if they don't it's not like themselves if they don't it's not like themselves if they don't it's not like he hasn't done in I mean yeah there is a he hasn't done in I mean yeah there is a he hasn't done in I mean yeah there is a lot of that in the system but the people lot of that in the system but the people lot of that in the system but the people that he's worked with for a long time that he's worked with for a long time that he's worked with for a long time you know he moves them around to you know he moves them around to you know he moves them around to something else perhaps where they can do something else perhaps where they can do something else perhaps where they can do less harm although you know we've often less harm although you know we've often less harm although you know we've often see that he he has quite a small Cadre see that he he has quite a small Cadre see that he he has quite a small Cadre of people that he's reliant on and but of people that he's reliant on and but of people that he's reliant on and but you know they're not up to the task you know they're not up to the task you know they're not up to the task which is kind of what's Happening Here which is kind of what's Happening Here which is kind of what's Happening Here but he also in the past has been more

but he also in the past has been more but he also in the past has been more straightforward just like you were straightforward just like you were straightforward just like you were saying here more pragmatic saying here more pragmatic saying here more pragmatic and I think you know if you were engaged and I think you know if you were engaged and I think you know if you were engaged with him in Russian while you're with him in Russian while you're with him in Russian while you're actually literally speaking the same actually literally speaking the same actually literally speaking the same language because there's so much Lost in language because there's so much Lost in language because there's so much Lost in Translation I used to jump outside of my Translation I used to jump outside of my Translation I used to jump outside of my skin listening to some of the phone skin listening to some of the phone skin listening to some of the phone calls because you know the way that they calls because you know the way that they calls because you know the way that they kind of relayed you know with an kind of relayed you know with an kind of relayed you know with an interpreter oh because you listen to the interpreter oh because you listen to the interpreter oh because you listen to the translation no because I know I'm translation no because I know I'm translation no because I know I'm listening to the Russian and the listening to the Russian and the listening to the Russian and the translation in the translation you know translation in the translation you know translation in the translation you know in real time and I haven't been here to in real time and I haven't been here to in real time and I haven't been here to translators Institute it's pretty translators Institute it's pretty translators Institute it's pretty difficult look an interpret is a trend difficult look an interpret is a trend difficult look an interpret is a trend in the moment to do something you know in the moment to do something you know in the moment to do something you know the synchronic the the Synchro the the the synchronic the the Synchro the the the synchronic the the Synchro the the synchronized or the real-time synchronized or the real-time synchronized or the real-time translation translation translation it's a translation is an art as well as it's a translation is an art as well as it's a translation is an art as well as a skill a skill a skill if you're doing simultaneous translation if you're doing simultaneous translation if you're doing simultaneous translation that's the word in English you know that's the word in English you know that's the word in English you know synchronous in Russian you're you're synchronous in Russian you're you're synchronous in Russian you're you're kind of focused in the moment on the kind of focused in the moment on the kind of focused in the moment on the fragments of of the discussion trying to fragments of of the discussion trying to fragments of of the discussion trying to render it as accurately as you possibly render it as accurately as you possibly render it as accurately as you possibly can can can and when you come out of that you you and when you come out of that you you and when you come out of that you you can't relay the entire conversation can't relay the entire conversation can't relay the entire conversation and often you know what translators do and often you know what translators do and often you know what translators do is they you know they take this little is they you know they take this little is they you know they take this little shorthander like journalists do and shorthander like journalists do and shorthander like journalists do and afterwards you know they they've just afterwards you know they they've just afterwards you know they they've just been caught up in the moment and they been caught up in the moment and they been caught up in the moment and they haven't got the big picture haven't got the big picture haven't got the big picture consecutive translation is different you consecutive translation is different you consecutive translation is different you know kind of you're trying to convey the know kind of you're trying to convey the know kind of you're trying to convey the whole mood of like big chunks of whole mood of like big chunks of whole mood of like big chunks of dialogue that have already been there dialogue that have already been there dialogue that have already been there but you know sometimes you might not get but you know sometimes you might not get but you know sometimes you might not get that right either and it breaks up the that right either and it breaks up the that right either and it breaks up the flow of the discussion that's terrible flow of the discussion that's terrible flow of the discussion that's terrible and and often it's you know the kind of and and often it's you know the kind of and and often it's you know the kind of the person who translates it's different

the person who translates it's different the person who translates it's different you know some of our best translated as you know some of our best translated as you know some of our best translated as a woman a woman a woman but you know hearing a woman's voice but you know hearing a woman's voice but you know hearing a woman's voice you know translating a guy who has a you know translating a guy who has a you know translating a guy who has a particular guy's way of speaking and a particular guy's way of speaking and a particular guy's way of speaking and a macho way of speaking and a crude way of macho way of speaking and a crude way of macho way of speaking and a crude way of speaking it'll be that Putin or I've speaking it'll be that Putin or I've speaking it'll be that Putin or I've seen that happen with uh erdogan the seen that happen with uh erdogan the seen that happen with uh erdogan the president of Turkey you know and it gets president of Turkey you know and it gets president of Turkey you know and it gets translated by a much more refined you translated by a much more refined you translated by a much more refined you know female speaker you've just lost the know female speaker you've just lost the know female speaker you've just lost the whole thing whole thing whole thing and you know many of the translators on and you know many of the translators on and you know many of the translators on the Russian side are not competent in the Russian side are not competent in the Russian side are not competent in English in the way that you would hope English in the way that you would hope English in the way that you would hope they are they're not it's not just that they are they're not it's not just that they are they're not it's not just that they're not native speakers they're just they're not native speakers they're just they're not native speakers they're just not trained to the same high standards not trained to the same high standards not trained to the same high standards they used to be in the past yes and you they used to be in the past yes and you they used to be in the past yes and you just go you lose the new ones you use just go you lose the new ones you use just go you lose the new ones you use the you use the feel you know you almost the you use the feel you know you almost the you use the feel you know you almost need you know kind of the interpretive need you know kind of the interpretive need you know kind of the interpretive actor you know doing you know the kind actor you know doing you know the kind actor you know doing you know the kind of the uh the interpretations like you of the uh the interpretations like you of the uh the interpretations like you need to match it as much as you can in need to match it as much as you can in need to match it as much as you can in the way that you you know do voiceovers the way that you you know do voiceovers the way that you you know do voiceovers and film the best way to talk to Putin and film the best way to talk to Putin and film the best way to talk to Putin is one-on-one is one-on-one is one-on-one in his own language I want to have a in his own language I want to have a in his own language I want to have a really great friend um here who is one really great friend um here who is one really great friend um here who is one of the best interpreters of Putin is of the best interpreters of Putin is of the best interpreters of Putin is often Us by the you know the media often Us by the you know the media often Us by the you know the media um to interpret phone which is just a he um to interpret phone which is just a he um to interpret phone which is just a he was at the Institute that I was I mean I was at the Institute that I was I mean I was at the Institute that I was I mean I know him from that kind of period and he know him from that kind of period and he know him from that kind of period and he is just excellent just like Pavel is just excellent just like Pavel is just excellent just like Pavel pashinka was absolutely phenomenal pashinka was absolutely phenomenal pashinka was absolutely phenomenal interpreting Gorbachev now he didn't interpreting Gorbachev now he didn't interpreting Gorbachev now he didn't always interpret him accurately because always interpret him accurately because always interpret him accurately because Gorbachev made lots of grammatical gaffs Gorbachev made lots of grammatical gaffs Gorbachev made lots of grammatical gaffs and sometimes was you know Gorbachev and sometimes was you know Gorbachev and sometimes was you know Gorbachev himself would joke that palashinko you himself would joke that palashinko you himself would joke that palashinko you know spoke better for Gorbachev than know spoke better for Gorbachev than know spoke better for Gorbachev than Gorbachev could himself but Putin is

Gorbachev could himself but Putin is Gorbachev could himself but Putin is actually quite precise and careful in actually quite precise and careful in actually quite precise and careful in the word that he speaks because a lot of the word that he speaks because a lot of the word that he speaks because a lot of Menace sometimes the things deliberately Menace sometimes the things deliberately Menace sometimes the things deliberately other times there's lots of humor and other times there's lots of humor and other times there's lots of humor and he's telling a joke for a particular he's telling a joke for a particular he's telling a joke for a particular reason and a lot of it is I mean he reason and a lot of it is I mean he reason and a lot of it is I mean he actually uses the richness of the actually uses the richness of the actually uses the richness of the Russian language and the crudity of Russian language and the crudity of Russian language and the crudity of language that can't be conveyed official language that can't be conveyed official language that can't be conveyed official Expressions yeah facial expressions body Expressions yeah facial expressions body Expressions yeah facial expressions body language the word that he sits back in language the word that he sits back in language the word that he sits back in the chair and slouches the the kind of the chair and slouches the the kind of the chair and slouches the the kind of the way that he makes fun of people and the way that he makes fun of people and the way that he makes fun of people and he you know kind of uses irony just some he you know kind of uses irony just some he you know kind of uses irony just some of it's just lost and it needs to be of it's just lost and it needs to be of it's just lost and it needs to be conveyed it the depth of humor and wit conveyed it the depth of humor and wit conveyed it the depth of humor and wit I've met quite a few like political I've met quite a few like political I've met quite a few like political leaders like that in the speak only leaders like that in the speak only leaders like that in the speak only Russian when I was traveling Ukraine Russian when I was traveling Ukraine Russian when I was traveling Ukraine um um um I I don't know how you translate that I I I don't know how you translate that I I I don't know how you translate that I think it's almost uh the other person think it's almost uh the other person think it's almost uh the other person that reminds me like that a little bit that reminds me like that a little bit that reminds me like that a little bit is Obama is Obama is Obama there's Obama had a wit and an there's Obama had a wit and an there's Obama had a wit and an intelligence but like uh he would Smile intelligence but like uh he would Smile intelligence but like uh he would Smile as he said something that add a lot to as he said something that add a lot to as he said something that add a lot to it like uh like that he's trolling you it like uh like that he's trolling you it like uh like that he's trolling you or he's being sarcastic or like I don't or he's being sarcastic or like I don't or he's being sarcastic or like I don't it's me converting it to words it's it's me converting it to words it's it's me converting it to words it's obvious that all English speakers if obvious that all English speakers if obvious that all English speakers if they listen to Obama but if you had to they listen to Obama but if you had to they listen to Obama but if you had to translate to a different language I translate to a different language I translate to a different language I think you're going to lose a lot of that think you're going to lose a lot of that think you're going to lose a lot of that yeah I mean when I watched um the I mean yeah I mean when I watched um the I mean yeah I mean when I watched um the I mean I watched many of Putin's speech just I watched many of Putin's speech just I watched many of Putin's speech just you know just in Russian not looking at you know just in Russian not looking at you know just in Russian not looking at any of the you know the subtitles or any of the you know the subtitles or any of the you know the subtitles or anything and it's just watching the word anything and it's just watching the word anything and it's just watching the word that is body language is at the at the that is body language is at the at the that is body language is at the at the time when he's saying things the whether time when he's saying things the whether time when he's saying things the whether you smoke he'll sneer he'll laugh he'll you smoke he'll sneer he'll laugh he'll you smoke he'll sneer he'll laugh he'll he'll ad-lib you know kind of from he'll ad-lib you know kind of from he'll ad-lib you know kind of from something that obviously kind of you something that obviously kind of you something that obviously kind of you know wasn't there on the prepared uh

know wasn't there on the prepared uh know wasn't there on the prepared uh Speech and it's really critical and you Speech and it's really critical and you Speech and it's really critical and you know kind of a lot some people speak you know kind of a lot some people speak you know kind of a lot some people speak you know like trump it just needs kind of know like trump it just needs kind of know like trump it just needs kind of just just just words words words Putin the words are very important Putin the words are very important Putin the words are very important Trumpets the atmosphere it's the the Trumpets the atmosphere it's the the Trumpets the atmosphere it's the the kind of the way you feel about things kind of the way you feel about things kind of the way you feel about things it's the buzz you get you know it's it's the buzz you get you know it's it's the buzz you get you know it's revving people up it's the kind of revving people up it's the kind of revving people up it's the kind of slogans and Putin is you know peace slogans and Putin is you know peace slogans and Putin is you know peace conveying a lot and what he's saying conveying a lot and what he's saying conveying a lot and what he's saying that I think I mean of course I don't that I think I mean of course I don't that I think I mean of course I don't know much because I only speak Russian know much because I only speak Russian know much because I only speak Russian and English but I have in English or and English but I have in English or and English but I have in English or Russian have not met Russian have not met Russian have not met almost anyone ever almost anyone ever almost anyone ever as interesting in conversation as Putin as interesting in conversation as Putin as interesting in conversation as Putin the I think he shines not in speeches the I think he shines not in speeches the I think he shines not in speeches but in interactions with others yeah but in interactions with others yeah but in interactions with others yeah when you watch those interviews and when you watch those interviews and when you watch those interviews and things with him and I've you know been things with him and I've you know been things with him and I've you know been at many of these sessions it's been at many of these sessions it's been at many of these sessions it's been hours of him parrying questions and it's hours of him parrying questions and it's hours of him parrying questions and it's like watching um a boxer sparring you like watching um a boxer sparring you like watching um a boxer sparring you know the kind of training bout know the kind of training bout know the kind of training bout yeah come on give me another one you yeah come on give me another one you yeah come on give me another one you know and it's kind of like and he Prides know and it's kind of like and he Prides know and it's kind of like and he Prides himself and and he's made mistakes himself and and he's made mistakes himself and and he's made mistakes often but the the breadth of you know often but the the breadth of you know often but the the breadth of you know the issues that he's often covered has the issues that he's often covered has the issues that he's often covered has been interested has been fascinating I been interested has been fascinating I been interested has been fascinating I used to just take you know kind of used to just take you know kind of used to just take you know kind of really detailed notes about this because really detailed notes about this because really detailed notes about this because you learn a term but it's not about his you learn a term but it's not about his you learn a term but it's not about his worldview again worldview again worldview again I mean he does live in a certain box I mean he does live in a certain box I mean he does live in a certain box like we all do like we all do like we all do and you know again his World experience and you know again his World experience and you know again his World experience is not as extensive as you know you is not as extensive as you know you is not as extensive as you know you would hope it would be but that's why would hope it would be but that's why would hope it would be but that's why you have to really pay attention that's you have to really pay attention that's you have to really pay attention that's where we've messed up

where we've messed up where we've messed up that's where we haven't really paid a that's where we haven't really paid a that's where we haven't really paid a lot of attention to what he's been lot of attention to what he's been lot of attention to what he's been saying he's been telegraphing saying he's been telegraphing saying he's been telegraphing this this this grievances dissatisfaction this I'm grievances dissatisfaction this I'm grievances dissatisfaction this I'm gonna do something for years gonna do something for years gonna do something for years and the thing is during war time and the thing is during war time and the thing is during war time the combined with propaganda and the the combined with propaganda and the the combined with propaganda and the narratives narratives narratives of resentment and grievance that you dig of resentment and grievance that you dig of resentment and grievance that you dig in on those like in on those like in on those like maybe you start out not believing it but maybe you start out not believing it but maybe you start out not believing it but you're sure it's all gonna believe it you're sure it's all gonna believe it you're sure it's all gonna believe it eventually well you convince yourself eventually well you convince yourself eventually well you convince yourself over time yeah look the longer over time yeah look the longer over time yeah look the longer you're in a position like Putin 22 years you're in a position like Putin 22 years you're in a position like Putin 22 years now coming on 23 years could be out now coming on 23 years could be out now coming on 23 years could be out there for 36 years there for 36 years there for 36 years you become more and more rigid I mean you become more and more rigid I mean you become more and more rigid I mean this is again you know something that this is again you know something that this is again you know something that you see in history you know you look at you see in history you know you look at you see in history you know you look at you know people through history of move you know people through history of move you know people through history of move from kind of being kind of left-wing and from kind of being kind of left-wing and from kind of being kind of left-wing and you know in the perspective to hard you know in the perspective to hard you know in the perspective to hard right they kind of have a kind of a sort right they kind of have a kind of a sort right they kind of have a kind of a sort of an ossification or a rigidity emerges of an ossification or a rigidity emerges of an ossification or a rigidity emerges in their views I mean again I used to in their views I mean again I used to in their views I mean again I used to have these arguments with Professor have these arguments with Professor have these arguments with Professor price Bob Lennon because he would talk price Bob Lennon because he would talk price Bob Lennon because he would talk about lenasia but he didn't change his about lenasia but he didn't change his about lenasia but he didn't change his mind from being 18. have you not thought mind from being 18. have you not thought mind from being 18. have you not thought about that I mean it's like we're not about that I mean it's like we're not about that I mean it's like we're not formed fully formed in individuals at formed fully formed in individuals at formed fully formed in individuals at our team you know we don't know anything our team you know we don't know anything our team you know we don't know anything we know something but not everything I we know something but not everything I we know something but not everything I mean and obviously the younger context mean and obviously the younger context mean and obviously the younger context you know the kind of the way that you you know the kind of the way that you you know the kind of the way that you kind of grow up the players you grew up kind of grow up the players you grew up kind of grow up the players you grew up the things that happened you the traumas the things that happened you the traumas the things that happened you the traumas you have I mean all of these have an you have I mean all of these have an you have I mean all of these have an impact but then if you don't grow beyond impact but then if you don't grow beyond impact but then if you don't grow beyond all of that and Putin's been stuck in

all of that and Putin's been stuck in all of that and Putin's been stuck in place since 2000 when it became place since 2000 when it became place since 2000 when it became president he's not out and about you president he's not out and about you president he's not out and about you know kind of being a man of the people know kind of being a man of the people know kind of being a man of the people and I you know he's not doing the kind and I you know he's not doing the kind and I you know he's not doing the kind of things he used to do yeah he gets out of things he used to do yeah he gets out of things he used to do yeah he gets out there and he goes to Kazakhstan and you there and he goes to Kazakhstan and you there and he goes to Kazakhstan and you know got him Tajikistan and he goes to know got him Tajikistan and he goes to know got him Tajikistan and he goes to China and he does this nothing and China and he does this nothing and China and he does this nothing and Jacoby he didn't go anywhere I mean very Jacoby he didn't go anywhere I mean very Jacoby he didn't go anywhere I mean very few places and so he got he's got stuck few places and so he got he's got stuck few places and so he got he's got stuck and I that worries me a lot because you and I that worries me a lot because you and I that worries me a lot because you could see before that he you know had a could see before that he you know had a could see before that he you know had a bit more of flexibility of thought bit more of flexibility of thought bit more of flexibility of thought and that's why nobody should be in and that's why nobody should be in and that's why nobody should be in players forever you should always kind players forever you should always kind players forever you should always kind of like get out there and go out there of like get out there and go out there of like get out there and go out there and learn a new skill you know kind of and learn a new skill you know kind of and learn a new skill you know kind of you need some he needs to sort of you you need some he needs to sort of you you need some he needs to sort of you know he needed to get out more and do know he needed to get out more and do know he needed to get out more and do something different you had an something different you had an something different you had an interesting point you've made that both interesting point you've made that both interesting point you've made that both Lionel Messi and uh Putin are thinking Lionel Messi and uh Putin are thinking Lionel Messi and uh Putin are thinking about about about they're just politicians they're they're just politicians they're they're just politicians they're thinking about the 2024 election which thinking about the 2024 election which thinking about the 2024 election which is coming up for both of them yeah I've is coming up for both of them yeah I've is coming up for both of them yeah I've said that in some of the other said that in some of the other said that in some of the other interviews yeah that's true that's so interviews yeah that's true that's so interviews yeah that's true that's so interesting yeah I mean because that interesting yeah I mean because that interesting yeah I mean because that election is going to be pretty much at election is going to be pretty much at election is going to be pretty much at the same time as the U.S election also the same time as the U.S election also the same time as the U.S election also oh those will be before I mean because oh those will be before I mean because oh those will be before I mean because sometime in that you know early part of sometime in that you know early part of sometime in that you know early part of the year for the presidential election the year for the presidential election the year for the presidential election yeah and also I don't know if you know yeah and also I don't know if you know yeah and also I don't know if you know about U.S elections but they actually about U.S elections but they actually about U.S elections but they actually last way longer we're in it now aren't last way longer we're in it now aren't last way longer we're in it now aren't we you know already yeah it's starting we you know already yeah it's starting we you know already yeah it's starting so there's going to be a significant so there's going to be a significant so there's going to be a significant overlap overlap overlap um yeah you know you think that actually um yeah you know you think that actually um yeah you know you think that actually comes into play in their calculus I comes into play in their calculus I comes into play in their calculus I think it was one of the reasons why think it was one of the reasons why think it was one of the reasons why Putin invaded in February of 2022 Putin invaded in February of 2022 Putin invaded in February of 2022 because it was gonna be two years I mean because it was gonna be two years I mean because it was gonna be two years I mean thought it'd be over by March of 2022

thought it'd be over by March of 2022 thought it'd be over by March of 2022 and you've got two years to prepare for and you've got two years to prepare for and you've got two years to prepare for you know the election and you've got a you know the election and you've got a you know the election and you've got a big boost you know not only you've got a big boost you know not only you've got a big boost you know not only you've got a boost from Crimea I mean I didn't boost from Crimea I mean I didn't boost from Crimea I mean I didn't mention that before I mean one of the mention that before I mean one of the mention that before I mean one of the reasons for inverting Crimea and alexing reasons for inverting Crimea and alexing reasons for inverting Crimea and alexing or invading Ukraine the first time Alex or invading Ukraine the first time Alex or invading Ukraine the first time Alex in Crimea it was look what happened to in Crimea it was look what happened to in Crimea it was look what happened to his ratings they went from kind of his ratings they went from kind of his ratings they went from kind of declining and it was still pretty good declining and it was still pretty good declining and it was still pretty good you know by anybody's standards too just you know by anybody's standards too just you know by anybody's standards too just rocketing off into the stratosphere I rocketing off into the stratosphere I rocketing off into the stratosphere I mean I didn't really meet anybody in mean I didn't really meet anybody in mean I didn't really meet anybody in Russia who thought that Alex in Crimea Russia who thought that Alex in Crimea Russia who thought that Alex in Crimea was you know kind of a bad thing was you know kind of a bad thing was you know kind of a bad thing I mean even you know kind of people who I mean even you know kind of people who I mean even you know kind of people who opposed putting on so many other things opposed putting on so many other things opposed putting on so many other things Crimea was you know Klim Nash they kept Crimea was you know Klim Nash they kept Crimea was you know Klim Nash they kept saying you know this is kind of you know saying you know this is kind of you know saying you know this is kind of you know we got it back you know it should never we got it back you know it should never we got it back you know it should never have gone away it was ours you know and have gone away it was ours you know and have gone away it was ours you know and but you know this is more complex and he but you know this is more complex and he but you know this is more complex and he wasn't I don't think at the time wasn't I don't think at the time wasn't I don't think at the time planning on annexing all of Ukraine uh planning on annexing all of Ukraine uh planning on annexing all of Ukraine uh when he went in this special military when he went in this special military when he went in this special military operation he was going to try to turn it operation he was going to try to turn it operation he was going to try to turn it into what Belarus has become a part of a into what Belarus has become a part of a into what Belarus has become a part of a you know bring back the Commonwealth of you know bring back the Commonwealth of you know bring back the Commonwealth of independent states or the union then a independent states or the union then a independent states or the union then a new Union with Belarus and Ukraine and new Union with Belarus and Ukraine and new Union with Belarus and Ukraine and Russia over time but certainly you know Russia over time but certainly you know Russia over time but certainly you know remove Ukraine as a major factor remove Ukraine as a major factor remove Ukraine as a major factor independent Factor on the world stage independent Factor on the world stage independent Factor on the world stage and you know consolidate Crimea and and you know consolidate Crimea and and you know consolidate Crimea and maybe you know kind of incorporate maybe you know kind of incorporate maybe you know kind of incorporate daniette's you know kind of that was daniette's you know kind of that was daniette's you know kind of that was that was also a possibility but it that was also a possibility but it that was also a possibility but it wasn't wasn't wasn't it wasn't in his intention and etiquette it wasn't in his intention and etiquette it wasn't in his intention and etiquette to have something on this kind of scale to have something on this kind of scale to have something on this kind of scale he wanted to get on with them preparing he wanted to get on with them preparing he wanted to get on with them preparing for what was going to be he would think for what was going to be he would think for what was going to be he would think the cake walk the shoe-in of the next the cake walk the shoe-in of the next the cake walk the shoe-in of the next presidential election I mean last time presidential election I mean last time presidential election I mean last time around he had to invite a bit of around he had to invite a bit of around he had to invite a bit of competition with this person who's competition with this person who's competition with this person who's reputed to be his goddaughter because reputed to be his goddaughter because reputed to be his goddaughter because Cindy subject you know to put a bit of

Cindy subject you know to put a bit of Cindy subject you know to put a bit of you know a kind of entertainment for you know a kind of entertainment for you know a kind of entertainment for people people people you know the sex time around you know you know the sex time around you know you know the sex time around you know maybe he wasn't really planning on maybe he wasn't really planning on maybe he wasn't really planning on running you know against any other you running you know against any other you running you know against any other you know serious opposition he was just know serious opposition he was just know serious opposition he was just going to have the Acclaim of you know going to have the Acclaim of you know going to have the Acclaim of you know the kind of the great leader like the kind of the great leader like the kind of the great leader like President XI President XI President XI um in China you know Putin you know was um in China you know Putin you know was um in China you know Putin you know was basically I think you know he also hoped basically I think you know he also hoped basically I think you know he also hoped that he would be able to devolve some that he would be able to devolve some that he would be able to devolve some Authority away you know kind of so he's Authority away you know kind of so he's Authority away you know kind of so he's more like the you know the supreme more like the you know the supreme more like the you know the supreme leader kind of figure the Tsar like leader kind of figure the Tsar like leader kind of figure the Tsar like figure the Monarch and then you know figure the Monarch and then you know figure the Monarch and then you know other people get on with the chief other people get on with the chief other people get on with the chief executive prime minister or running the executive prime minister or running the executive prime minister or running the country and he could kind of like step country and he could kind of like step country and he could kind of like step back and just enjoy this you know maybe back and just enjoy this you know maybe back and just enjoy this you know maybe there was going to be again a new Union there was going to be again a new Union there was going to be again a new Union of Belarus Russia and of Belarus Russia and of Belarus Russia and um than Ukraine and some you know um than Ukraine and some you know um than Ukraine and some you know fashion and he'd preside over that fashion and he'd preside over that fashion and he'd preside over that speaking of our position you've speaking of our position you've speaking of our position you've criticized the famed Putin critic Alex criticized the famed Putin critic Alex criticized the famed Putin critic Alex in navalny in navalny in navalny what's the nature of your criticism well what's the nature of your criticism well what's the nature of your criticism well hasn't really been a kind of a criticism hasn't really been a kind of a criticism hasn't really been a kind of a criticism in the way that you know people have in the way that you know people have in the way that you know people have implied but more just reminding people implied but more just reminding people implied but more just reminding people that navalny isn't some stooge of the that navalny isn't some stooge of the that navalny isn't some stooge of the West as other people have you know kind West as other people have you know kind West as other people have you know kind of depicted him in the in the Russian of depicted him in the in the Russian of depicted him in the in the Russian firmament you know saying that this is firmament you know saying that this is firmament you know saying that this is kind of you know he's pro-western he's a kind of you know he's pro-western he's a kind of you know he's pro-western he's a Russian Nationalist and a Russian Russian Nationalist and a Russian Russian Nationalist and a Russian Patriot you know in the past uh he's Patriot you know in the past uh he's Patriot you know in the past uh he's articulated you know things are not sort articulated you know things are not sort articulated you know things are not sort of dissimilar from some of the people of dissimilar from some of the people of dissimilar from some of the people around Putin and it's more just around Putin and it's more just around Putin and it's more just reminding people that you know just reminding people that you know just reminding people that you know just because you kind of see somebody you because you kind of see somebody you because you kind of see somebody you know as a kind of in an opposition know as a kind of in an opposition know as a kind of in an opposition figure or somebody who might be more figure or somebody who might be more figure or somebody who might be more palatable from you know your perspective palatable from you know your perspective palatable from you know your perspective looking from the West

looking from the West looking from the West they're not always going to be you know they're not always going to be you know they're not always going to be you know what you think they are and Alexander what you think they are and Alexander what you think they are and Alexander Valley is a Russian and you know in a Valley is a Russian and you know in a Valley is a Russian and you know in a particular Russian context he's particular Russian context he's particular Russian context he's different from Putin but he wouldn't different from Putin but he wouldn't different from Putin but he wouldn't necessarily you know kind of run you necessarily you know kind of run you necessarily you know kind of run you know the Russian system in words that we know the Russian system in words that we know the Russian system in words that we were like were like were like so that's it's kind of it's not a kind so that's it's kind of it's not a kind so that's it's kind of it's not a kind of a criticism it's more of a critique of a criticism it's more of a critique of a criticism it's more of a critique of the way that we look at things you of the way that we look at things you of the way that we look at things you know I think it's a mistake to always know I think it's a mistake to always know I think it's a mistake to always you know say oh this is pro-western or you know say oh this is pro-western or you know say oh this is pro-western or this is a you know liberal I mean what this is a you know liberal I mean what this is a you know liberal I mean what the heck does that mean pro-western I the heck does that mean pro-western I the heck does that mean pro-western I mean he's a Russian he's a Russian mean he's a Russian he's a Russian mean he's a Russian he's a Russian Nationalist and a Russian Patriot and Nationalist and a Russian Patriot and Nationalist and a Russian Patriot and he's often you know been you know quite he's often you know been you know quite he's often you know been you know quite critical about the immigration critical about the immigration critical about the immigration um he's had some negative views about um he's had some negative views about um he's had some negative views about you know one part remember said don't you know one part remember said don't you know one part remember said don't feed the caucuses you know kind of feed the caucuses you know kind of feed the caucuses you know kind of played upon some of the you know the played upon some of the you know the played upon some of the you know the racial and ethnic tensions inside of you racial and ethnic tensions inside of you racial and ethnic tensions inside of you know Russia itself as well now he is a know Russia itself as well now he is a know Russia itself as well now he is a pluralist and then he's kind of and he pluralist and then he's kind of and he pluralist and then he's kind of and he wants to have you know different uh wants to have you know different uh wants to have you know different uh set of political actors there but he set of political actors there but he set of political actors there but he also isn't promoting Revolution he's not also isn't promoting Revolution he's not also isn't promoting Revolution he's not Lenin he's not wanting to bring down the Lenin he's not wanting to bring down the Lenin he's not wanting to bring down the state state state he wants to kind of you know change he wants to kind of you know change he wants to kind of you know change the people who are in charge that's what the people who are in charge that's what the people who are in charge that's what he's being basically focused on and you he's being basically focused on and you he's being basically focused on and you know he might have know he might have know he might have and have things done do things that you and have things done do things that you and have things done do things that you know we elsewhere might not like and I know we elsewhere might not like and I know we elsewhere might not like and I guess the bigger picture there is guess the bigger picture there is guess the bigger picture there is it's not trivial to know that if you it's not trivial to know that if you it's not trivial to know that if you place another human in power place another human in power place another human in power to replace the current human and power to replace the current human and power to replace the current human and power that things are going to be better they that things are going to be better they that things are going to be better they could be a lot worse because could be a lot worse because could be a lot worse because there's a momentum to a system a system

there's a momentum to a system a system there's a momentum to a system a system is bigger than just this leader even is bigger than just this leader even is bigger than just this leader even when that leader has a huge amount of when that leader has a huge amount of when that leader has a huge amount of power that's absolutely right and you power that's absolutely right and you power that's absolutely right and you know he grew up in that you know same know he grew up in that you know same know he grew up in that you know same system now he's younger than Putin so system now he's younger than Putin so system now he's younger than Putin so he's got a different generational he's got a different generational he's got a different generational perspective perspective perspective and he's not wedded to the Soviet Union and he's not wedded to the Soviet Union and he's not wedded to the Soviet Union uh or you know kind of some concept of uh or you know kind of some concept of uh or you know kind of some concept of the Russian Empire he doesn't seem to the Russian Empire he doesn't seem to the Russian Empire he doesn't seem to spend a lot of time I don't know what spend a lot of time I don't know what spend a lot of time I don't know what he's doing you know in jail but he's he's doing you know in jail but he's he's doing you know in jail but he's probably not sitting around you know probably not sitting around you know probably not sitting around you know reading romanosov and you know the kind reading romanosov and you know the kind reading romanosov and you know the kind of the great kind of tracks of Russian of the great kind of tracks of Russian of the great kind of tracks of Russian history could be actually but I mean I history could be actually but I mean I history could be actually but I mean I think you know navalny has a different think you know navalny has a different think you know navalny has a different worldview on a different perspective worldview on a different perspective worldview on a different perspective just like Medved if was different you just like Medved if was different you just like Medved if was different you know in his time in presidency in mid know in his time in presidency in mid know in his time in presidency in mid some you know changes and some some you know changes and some some you know changes and some Innovations there but don't think that Innovations there but don't think that Innovations there but don't think that they're going to be radically different they're going to be radically different they're going to be radically different because look Gorbachev I mean he was because look Gorbachev I mean he was because look Gorbachev I mean he was so different from andropov and chilienko so different from andropov and chilienko so different from andropov and chilienko now this is the person now this is the person now this is the person but he was also constrained by the but he was also constrained by the but he was also constrained by the system and he wanted to have change but system and he wanted to have change but system and he wanted to have change but he wanted evolutionary change he didn't he wanted evolutionary change he didn't he wanted evolutionary change he didn't know how to do it but he didn't want to know how to do it but he didn't want to know how to do it but he didn't want to bring the whole system down look a crush bring the whole system down look a crush bring the whole system down look a crush off when he came in you know after that off when he came in you know after that off when he came in you know after that whole period of whole period of whole period of you know about everybody trying to you know about everybody trying to you know about everybody trying to figure out what to do after Stalin had figure out what to do after Stalin had figure out what to do after Stalin had died and there was all this kind of back died and there was all this kind of back died and there was all this kind of back and forth and eventually Kristoff and forth and eventually Kristoff and forth and eventually Kristoff emerges and you know he tries to make emerges and you know he tries to make emerges and you know he tries to make changes to the system but he's also a changes to the system but he's also a changes to the system but he's also a creature of a very specific context he's creature of a very specific context he's creature of a very specific context he's grown up in the same system and it you grown up in the same system and it you grown up in the same system and it you know kind of brings all kinds of know kind of brings all kinds of know kind of brings all kinds of elements of chaos there into the whole elements of chaos there into the whole elements of chaos there into the whole thing and you know gets into a standoff thing and you know gets into a standoff thing and you know gets into a standoff of the United States of the United States of the United States that we know is the Cuban Missile Crisis that we know is the Cuban Missile Crisis that we know is the Cuban Missile Crisis and eventually you know gets removed you and eventually you know gets removed you and eventually you know gets removed you know we're looking at what's happening know we're looking at what's happening know we're looking at what's happening in the United Kingdom right now you know

in the United Kingdom right now you know in the United Kingdom right now you know they've just churned through three they've just churned through three they've just churned through three uh Prime Ministers and actually five uh Prime Ministers and actually five uh Prime Ministers and actually five prime ministers in you know kind of as prime ministers in you know kind of as prime ministers in you know kind of as many years but all of those prime many years but all of those prime many years but all of those prime ministers have come out of the context ministers have come out of the context ministers have come out of the context of the conservative party in the whole of the conservative party in the whole of the conservative party in the whole you know kind of just shades of you know you know kind of just shades of you know you know kind of just shades of you know the same thing they've all come out of the same thing they've all come out of the same thing they've all come out of the same academic and you know kind of the same academic and you know kind of the same academic and you know kind of privileged backgrounds even uh Rishi privileged backgrounds even uh Rishi privileged backgrounds even uh Rishi sunak the new um prime minister is the sunak the new um prime minister is the sunak the new um prime minister is the first you know Indian or anglo-indian uh first you know Indian or anglo-indian uh first you know Indian or anglo-indian uh prime minister and British history it prime minister and British history it prime minister and British history it was a kind of phenomenal you know kind was a kind of phenomenal you know kind was a kind of phenomenal you know kind of as a child of in Indian immigrants of as a child of in Indian immigrants of as a child of in Indian immigrants but also um but also um but also um a person of great privilege from the a person of great privilege from the a person of great privilege from the same academic and party background as same academic and party background as same academic and party background as the others you know so there are always the others you know so there are always the others you know so there are always differences with those human beings but differences with those human beings but differences with those human beings but those contexts matter a lot what is the those contexts matter a lot what is the those contexts matter a lot what is the probability that Russia attacks Ukraine probability that Russia attacks Ukraine probability that Russia attacks Ukraine with the tactical nuclear weapon with the tactical nuclear weapon with the tactical nuclear weapon well Putin's definitely been thinking well Putin's definitely been thinking well Putin's definitely been thinking about it right I mean he's the kind of about it right I mean he's the kind of about it right I mean he's the kind of person if he's got an instrument he person if he's got an instrument he person if he's got an instrument he wants to figure out how to use it you wants to figure out how to use it you wants to figure out how to use it you know we look at polonium we look at know we look at polonium we look at know we look at polonium we look at novichok you know we look at all kinds novichok you know we look at all kinds novichok you know we look at all kinds of things you know that he's also of things you know that he's also of things you know that he's also presided over in Syria he has you know presided over in Syria he has you know presided over in Syria he has you know put in charge of the war in Ukraine now put in charge of the war in Ukraine now put in charge of the war in Ukraine now uh General civilikin is known as general uh General civilikin is known as general uh General civilikin is known as general Armageddon you know the kind of person Armageddon you know the kind of person Armageddon you know the kind of person who you know pretty much facilitated the who you know pretty much facilitated the who you know pretty much facilitated the use of chemical weapons in Syria you use of chemical weapons in Syria you use of chemical weapons in Syria you know for example so you know don't think know for example so you know don't think know for example so you know don't think that Putin you know hasn't thought about that Putin you know hasn't thought about that Putin you know hasn't thought about how ruthless he can possibly be the how ruthless he can possibly be the how ruthless he can possibly be the question is really the calculation it's question is really the calculation it's question is really the calculation it's his estimation of the probability that his estimation of the probability that his estimation of the probability that will get the desired effect will get the desired effect will get the desired effect we keep talking about this idea of

we keep talking about this idea of we keep talking about this idea of escalate de-escalate that's not what the escalate de-escalate that's not what the escalate de-escalate that's not what the Russians you know how they call it but Russians you know how they call it but Russians you know how they call it but it's the whole idea that you do it's the whole idea that you do it's the whole idea that you do something really outrageous to get something really outrageous to get something really outrageous to get everybody else to back off yeah now when everybody else to back off yeah now when everybody else to back off yeah now when you talked about the precedent that the you talked about the precedent that the you talked about the precedent that the United States set of detonating uh the United States set of detonating uh the United States set of detonating uh the nuclear weapons in Hiroshima Nagasaki nuclear weapons in Hiroshima Nagasaki nuclear weapons in Hiroshima Nagasaki what you know he obviously meant the what you know he obviously meant the what you know he obviously meant the president of using nuclear weapons of president of using nuclear weapons of president of using nuclear weapons of course which of course we would then say course which of course we would then say course which of course we would then say well we should then how the Imp well we should then how the Imp well we should then how the Imp permissibility of ever doing that again permissibility of ever doing that again permissibility of ever doing that again but what he's talking about is the but what he's talking about is the but what he's talking about is the precedent of escalating to such an precedent of escalating to such an precedent of escalating to such an accident that you stopped the war accident that you stopped the war accident that you stopped the war because he reads that saying well you because he reads that saying well you because he reads that saying well you know the US dropped the bombs on know the US dropped the bombs on know the US dropped the bombs on Hiroshima Nagasaki the war was brought Hiroshima Nagasaki the war was brought Hiroshima Nagasaki the war was brought to a quick conclusion and of course to a quick conclusion and of course to a quick conclusion and of course there's a huge debate in America about there's a huge debate in America about there's a huge debate in America about whether it was necessary to do that whether it was necessary to do that whether it was necessary to do that whether the war was ending anywhere did whether the war was ending anywhere did whether the war was ending anywhere did that really you know kind of uh change that really you know kind of uh change that really you know kind of uh change the minds of the Japanese High command I the minds of the Japanese High command I the minds of the Japanese High command I mean did all kind of books uh and being mean did all kind of books uh and being mean did all kind of books uh and being written about that written about that written about that and of course you know the revulsion and of course you know the revulsion and of course you know the revulsion that people felt um in the wake of that that people felt um in the wake of that that people felt um in the wake of that was just you know just the shock of of was just you know just the shock of of was just you know just the shock of of what actually happened and we've spent what actually happened and we've spent what actually happened and we've spent you know 70 years you know basically you know 70 years you know basically you know 70 years you know basically Coming to Terms of the fact that we did Coming to Terms of the fact that we did Coming to Terms of the fact that we did something like that you know the fire something like that you know the fire something like that you know the fire bombing you know we've also looked at bombing you know we've also looked at bombing you know we've also looked at all the bombing you know in Vietnam and all the bombing you know in Vietnam and all the bombing you know in Vietnam and everywhere and you know the the all everywhere and you know the the all everywhere and you know the the all these massive bombing campaigns are these massive bombing campaigns are these massive bombing campaigns are realizing they actually often had the realizing they actually often had the realizing they actually often had the opposite effect Hiroshima Nagasaki might opposite effect Hiroshima Nagasaki might opposite effect Hiroshima Nagasaki might have uh contributed and there's a lot of have uh contributed and there's a lot of have uh contributed and there's a lot of you know scholarship suggesting it did you know scholarship suggesting it did you know scholarship suggesting it did to the end of the war but all of the big to the end of the war but all of the big to the end of the war but all of the big bombing campaigns the destruction bombing campaigns the destruction bombing campaigns the destruction actually prolonged was because they made actually prolonged was because they made actually prolonged was because they made people fight back as we're kind of people fight back as we're kind of people fight back as we're kind of seeing in the case of Ukraine so Putin seeing in the case of Ukraine so Putin seeing in the case of Ukraine so Putin has to calculate the probability that if

has to calculate the probability that if has to calculate the probability that if he uses some tactical nuclear weapon he uses some tactical nuclear weapon he uses some tactical nuclear weapon that it will get the desired effect that it will get the desired effect that it will get the desired effect which is get us to capitulate and which is get us to capitulate and which is get us to capitulate and Ukraine to capitulate it us to Ukraine to capitulate it us to Ukraine to capitulate it us to capitulate meaning the United States and capitulate meaning the United States and capitulate meaning the United States and the Europeans not supporting Ukraine the Europeans not supporting Ukraine the Europeans not supporting Ukraine anymore pushing towards the negotiating anymore pushing towards the negotiating anymore pushing towards the negotiating table negotiating Ukraine away and table negotiating Ukraine away and table negotiating Ukraine away and Ukraine is saying okay we give up like Ukraine is saying okay we give up like Ukraine is saying okay we give up like um happened in Hiroshima Nagasaki in um happened in Hiroshima Nagasaki in um happened in Hiroshima Nagasaki in Japan ton so it's it's his calculation Japan ton so it's it's his calculation Japan ton so it's it's his calculation you know as much as anything else which you know as much as anything else which you know as much as anything else which is really important he said we have to is really important he said we have to is really important he said we have to show him that he won't get that out of show him that he won't get that out of show him that he won't get that out of it it's kind of less our probability and it it's kind of less our probability and it it's kind of less our probability and you know kind of the odds of it it's you know kind of the odds of it it's you know kind of the odds of it it's just how he calculates that probability just how he calculates that probability just how he calculates that probability oh they're getting what he wants I mean oh they're getting what he wants I mean oh they're getting what he wants I mean I guess that's how the game of poker I guess that's how the game of poker I guess that's how the game of poker works it's your your probability and works it's your your probability and works it's your your probability and your estimate of their probability and your estimate of their probability and your estimate of their probability and your estimate of their estimate of your your estimate of their estimate of your your estimate of their estimate of your probability and yeah so it goes on yeah probability and yeah so it goes on yeah probability and yeah so it goes on yeah uh I think he has two tools right so one uh I think he has two tools right so one uh I think he has two tools right so one is actually the actual use of nuclear is actually the actual use of nuclear is actually the actual use of nuclear weapons and then the threat of these oh weapons and then the threat of these oh weapons and then the threat of these oh the threat is very effective and the the threat is very effective and the the threat is very effective and the more real you make the threat that's more real you make the threat that's more real you make the threat that's right so if they get uh the more you right so if they get uh the more you right so if they get uh the more you approach the actual use I get very close approach the actual use I get very close approach the actual use I get very close to you there's already using Chernobyl to you there's already using Chernobyl to you there's already using Chernobyl is that aparisia and then usual cranes is that aparisia and then usual cranes is that aparisia and then usual cranes the other nuclear reactors so he's using the other nuclear reactors so he's using the other nuclear reactors so he's using civilian nuclear actors as a dirty bomb civilian nuclear actors as a dirty bomb civilian nuclear actors as a dirty bomb so you know it's ironic that he has Sega so you know it's ironic that he has Sega so you know it's ironic that he has Sega his defense minister calling people his defense minister calling people his defense minister calling people obviously the ukraines are going to use obviously the ukraines are going to use obviously the ukraines are going to use a dirty bomb they're already doing it I a dirty bomb they're already doing it I a dirty bomb they're already doing it I mean what what what is um you know kind mean what what what is um you know kind mean what what what is um you know kind of more destructive and stirring up all of more destructive and stirring up all of more destructive and stirring up all the radioactive dust and Chernobyl as

the radioactive dust and Chernobyl as the radioactive dust and Chernobyl as you send your troops through you know you send your troops through you know you send your troops through you know for example or shelling you know the the for example or shelling you know the the for example or shelling you know the the Chernobyl plants and the sarcophagus and Chernobyl plants and the sarcophagus and Chernobyl plants and the sarcophagus and putting it at risk and that Parisian putting it at risk and that Parisian putting it at risk and that Parisian you've got the international atomic you've got the international atomic you've got the international atomic energy agency running out there in a energy agency running out there in a energy agency running out there in a panic and you know kind of also trying panic and you know kind of also trying panic and you know kind of also trying to intervene in the conflict so you're to intervene in the conflict so you're to intervene in the conflict so you're putting you know civilian nuclear uh putting you know civilian nuclear uh putting you know civilian nuclear uh reactors at risk I mean that also has a reactors at risk I mean that also has a reactors at risk I mean that also has a great added effect of cutting off great added effect of cutting off great added effect of cutting off Ukraine's power supply because Ukraine's power supply because Ukraine's power supply because zaparisian predicted it was the opposite zaparisian predicted it was the opposite zaparisian predicted it was the opposite a third of them Ukraine's power a third of them Ukraine's power a third of them Ukraine's power generation or some you know really high generation or some you know really high generation or some you know really high percentage job but I'd have to go back percentage job but I'd have to go back percentage job but I'd have to go back and you know take a look at that but and you know take a look at that but and you know take a look at that but that's a twofer you know it's a kind of that's a twofer you know it's a kind of that's a twofer you know it's a kind of a double effect there of undermining uh a double effect there of undermining uh a double effect there of undermining uh Power Generation also frightening Power Generation also frightening Power Generation also frightening Germans and others who've already been Germans and others who've already been Germans and others who've already been very worried about nuclear power and you very worried about nuclear power and you very worried about nuclear power and you know increasing your leverage on that know increasing your leverage on that know increasing your leverage on that energy front but also scaring people uh energy front but also scaring people uh energy front but also scaring people uh from the perspective of uh the use of from the perspective of uh the use of from the perspective of uh the use of nuclear weapon those reactors also nuclear weapon those reactors also nuclear weapon those reactors also become a nuclear weapon tactically become a nuclear weapon tactically become a nuclear weapon tactically deployed and as you said that the deployed and as you said that the deployed and as you said that the discussion of using a nuclear weapon and discussion of using a nuclear weapon and discussion of using a nuclear weapon and engendering all those fears and he's engendering all those fears and he's engendering all those fears and he's already got an effect everyone's running already got an effect everyone's running already got an effect everyone's running around talking about the Cuban Missile around talking about the Cuban Missile around talking about the Cuban Missile Crisis and secret diplomacy and how we Crisis and secret diplomacy and how we Crisis and secret diplomacy and how we negotiate away Ukraine in return for not negotiate away Ukraine in return for not negotiate away Ukraine in return for not blowing up a nuclear weapon so he's got blowing up a nuclear weapon so he's got blowing up a nuclear weapon so he's got a lot of people obviously talking about a lot of people obviously talking about a lot of people obviously talking about that so sorry for the difficult and uh that so sorry for the difficult and uh that so sorry for the difficult and uh direct question it could be for you direct question it could be for you direct question it could be for you directly or more like uh do you think we directly or more like uh do you think we directly or more like uh do you think we have a plan for this what happens if he have a plan for this what happens if he have a plan for this what happens if he does does does drop a nuclear drop a nuclear drop a nuclear weapon do you have a sense that the

weapon do you have a sense that the weapon do you have a sense that the United States United States United States has a good plan I know we're talking about it I think we I know we're talking about it I think we probably have several plans because it probably have several plans because it probably have several plans because it depends on what where when how depends on what where when how depends on what where when how but that don't and also don't these but that don't and also don't these but that don't and also don't these things happen very quickly things happen very quickly things happen very quickly well there's also signaling and sign and well there's also signaling and sign and well there's also signaling and sign and signs of um of movement there I mean I signs of um of movement there I mean I signs of um of movement there I mean I want to be very you know kind of careful want to be very you know kind of careful want to be very you know kind of careful about this but and the thing is it's about this but and the thing is it's about this but and the thing is it's also very important that we do this with also very important that we do this with also very important that we do this with other nuclear Powers so the other thing other nuclear Powers so the other thing other nuclear Powers so the other thing that's different that's different that's different from how it might have been in the past from how it might have been in the past from how it might have been in the past and particularly different from the and particularly different from the and particularly different from the Cuban Missile Crisis near a missile Cuban Missile Crisis near a missile Cuban Missile Crisis near a missile crisis we're not the only nuclear crisis we're not the only nuclear crisis we're not the only nuclear players players players China I mean has emerging nuclear China I mean has emerging nuclear China I mean has emerging nuclear Arsenal now Arsenal now Arsenal now um Less on the Strategic side but um Less on the Strategic side but um Less on the Strategic side but building it up uh but very much on the building it up uh but very much on the building it up uh but very much on the intermediate uh range and Tactical intermediate uh range and Tactical intermediate uh range and Tactical Kim Jong-un is firing off weapons left Kim Jong-un is firing off weapons left Kim Jong-un is firing off weapons left right and Center at the moment in North right and Center at the moment in North right and Center at the moment in North Korea we've got other Rogue States Korea we've got other Rogue States Korea we've got other Rogue States Putin's behaving like a rogue State just Putin's behaving like a rogue State just Putin's behaving like a rogue State just to be very clear and this is what we've to be very clear and this is what we've to be very clear and this is what we've got with Kim Jong-un in North Korea got with Kim Jong-un in North Korea got with Kim Jong-un in North Korea we've also got India and Pakistan and we've also got India and Pakistan and we've also got India and Pakistan and we've got other states that we're not we've got other states that we're not we've got other states that we're not supposed to talk about that we now have supposed to talk about that we now have supposed to talk about that we now have nuclear capacities and others that would nuclear capacities and others that would nuclear capacities and others that would like to have nuclear capacity and the like to have nuclear capacity and the like to have nuclear capacity and the whole questioner here is about ulcer whole questioner here is about ulcer whole questioner here is about ulcer proliferation getting back to that time proliferation getting back to that time proliferation getting back to that time when Ukraine had nuclear weapons at when Ukraine had nuclear weapons at when Ukraine had nuclear weapons at least there on its television sort of least there on its television sort of least there on its television sort of Belarus and Kazakhstan you've got to Belarus and Kazakhstan you've got to Belarus and Kazakhstan you've got to wonder was it wise for them to give it wonder was it wise for them to give it wonder was it wise for them to give it up we were worried about you know kind up we were worried about you know kind up we were worried about you know kind of loose nukes nuclear weapons you know of loose nukes nuclear weapons you know of loose nukes nuclear weapons you know kind of uh getting out of hand kind of uh getting out of hand kind of uh getting out of hand proliferation at the time we wanted proliferation at the time we wanted proliferation at the time we wanted fewer nuclear Powers Russia wanted that

fewer nuclear Powers Russia wanted that fewer nuclear Powers Russia wanted that too now we're going to have more we've too now we're going to have more we've too now we're going to have more we've got more and what Putin is saying is got more and what Putin is saying is got more and what Putin is saying is well that was stupid if you turn to give well that was stupid if you turn to give well that was stupid if you turn to give up the nuclear weapons in fact my up the nuclear weapons in fact my up the nuclear weapons in fact my colleagues and I back in our report Back colleagues and I back in our report Back colleagues and I back in our report Back in the USSR kind of suggest they in the USSR kind of suggest they in the USSR kind of suggest they shouldn't give them up shouldn't give them up shouldn't give them up and that's why we had the um butter and that's why we had the um butter and that's why we had the um butter patch memorandum that's why the United patch memorandum that's why the United patch memorandum that's why the United States the United Kingdom in particular States the United Kingdom in particular States the United Kingdom in particular have you know basically some have you know basically some have you know basically some responsibility and obligation going back responsibility and obligation going back responsibility and obligation going back to 1994 when they promised Ukraine that to 1994 when they promised Ukraine that to 1994 when they promised Ukraine that gave up the nuclear weapons that gave up the nuclear weapons that gave up the nuclear weapons that territorial integrity and sovereignty territorial integrity and sovereignty territorial integrity and sovereignty would remain intact some obligation to would remain intact some obligation to would remain intact some obligation to actually do something to step up if we actually do something to step up if we actually do something to step up if we step back from that this is the thing step back from that this is the thing step back from that this is the thing that people are not talking about that people are not talking about that people are not talking about you know what about nuclear you know what about nuclear you know what about nuclear proliferation if you're South Korea or proliferation if you're South Korea or proliferation if you're South Korea or Japan you know you're any other country Japan you know you're any other country Japan you know you're any other country that's kind of worrying about your that's kind of worrying about your that's kind of worrying about your neighbors neighbors neighbors um and you know what might happen to you um and you know what might happen to you um and you know what might happen to you I mean just like India and Pakistan are I mean just like India and Pakistan are I mean just like India and Pakistan are both like well you know we've got to both like well you know we've got to both like well you know we've got to kind of keep our strategic nuclear kind of keep our strategic nuclear kind of keep our strategic nuclear balance here everything is up for balance here everything is up for balance here everything is up for questions Saudis don't want a nuclear questions Saudis don't want a nuclear questions Saudis don't want a nuclear weapon the Turks already want one weapon the Turks already want one weapon the Turks already want one they've talked about one for years you they've talked about one for years you they've talked about one for years you know why should the Iranians be the only know why should the Iranians be the only know why should the Iranians be the only one with an Islamic nuclear weapon you one with an Islamic nuclear weapon you one with an Islamic nuclear weapon you know and if if we know that you know know and if if we know that you know know and if if we know that you know Iran has Iran has Iran has break up capacity now the Saudis and all break up capacity now the Saudis and all break up capacity now the Saudis and all the other you know states that are in the other you know states that are in the other you know states that are in opposition to Iran well I also want to opposition to Iran well I also want to opposition to Iran well I also want to have some nuclear capacity in the United have some nuclear capacity in the United have some nuclear capacity in the United States before wanted to maintain States before wanted to maintain States before wanted to maintain everything under the nuclear umbrella everything under the nuclear umbrella everything under the nuclear umbrella you know one of the reasons why Sweden you know one of the reasons why Sweden you know one of the reasons why Sweden and Finland are joining NATO is because and Finland are joining NATO is because and Finland are joining NATO is because of suddenly all of these nuclear threats of suddenly all of these nuclear threats of suddenly all of these nuclear threats Sweden was actually the Lost country on Sweden was actually the Lost country on Sweden was actually the Lost country on the planet to want to have nuclear the planet to want to have nuclear the planet to want to have nuclear weapons they were actually pushing for a weapons they were actually pushing for a weapons they were actually pushing for a ban on nuclear weapons in the United ban on nuclear weapons in the United ban on nuclear weapons in the United Nations now that Putin's doing the Nations now that Putin's doing the Nations now that Putin's doing the nuclear cyber rattling

nuclear cyber rattling nuclear cyber rattling you know they're talking about joining you know they're talking about joining you know they're talking about joining and on the verge of joining a nuclear and on the verge of joining a nuclear and on the verge of joining a nuclear Alliance you know see what what's Alliance you know see what what's Alliance you know see what what's happening here so we have to make it happening here so we have to make it happening here so we have to make it more and more difficult for Putin to more and more difficult for Putin to more and more difficult for Putin to even contemplate that that's why people even contemplate that that's why people even contemplate that that's why people are saying this is reckless this is are saying this is reckless this is are saying this is reckless this is irresponsible Putin is actually making irresponsible Putin is actually making irresponsible Putin is actually making the world less safe for himself down the the world less safe for himself down the the world less safe for himself down the line either but he's thinking short term line either but he's thinking short term line either but he's thinking short term here he's thinking what can I do what do here he's thinking what can I do what do here he's thinking what can I do what do I actually have you can also destroy I actually have you can also destroy I actually have you can also destroy lots of infrastructure as he's doing lots of infrastructure as he's doing lots of infrastructure as he's doing you can use subversion you know we're you can use subversion you know we're you can use subversion you know we're worried about all of the undersea cables worried about all of the undersea cables worried about all of the undersea cables all these weird things happening you all these weird things happening you all these weird things happening you know off orkney or in the Mediterranean know off orkney or in the Mediterranean know off orkney or in the Mediterranean or you know all these other things that or you know all these other things that or you know all these other things that are happening not dream to pipelines are happening not dream to pipelines are happening not dream to pipelines other infrastructure there's all kinds other infrastructure there's all kinds other infrastructure there's all kinds of other things that he can do as well of other things that he can do as well of other things that he can do as well here it's not just you know again here it's not just you know again here it's not just you know again there's a civilian nuclear threat there's a civilian nuclear threat there's a civilian nuclear threat of blowing up you know one of the of blowing up you know one of the of blowing up you know one of the reactors reactors reactors now it's got to be sure about where the now it's got to be sure about where the now it's got to be sure about where the wind turns and the wind blows wind turns and the wind blows wind turns and the wind blows and there's all kinds of things to you and there's all kinds of things to you and there's all kinds of things to you know factor in here but Putin is know factor in here but Putin is know factor in here but Putin is definitely sitting around definitely sitting around definitely sitting around calculating with other people what can I calculating with other people what can I calculating with other people what can I do to turn this around I mean he still do to turn this around I mean he still do to turn this around I mean he still thinks that he can win this thinks that he can win this thinks that he can win this or in other words he can oh he can end or in other words he can oh he can end or in other words he can oh he can end it in on his terms Crimea done yet and you know capitulation all recognized and you know capitulation all recognized as being part of Russia as being part of Russia as being part of Russia oh he can freeze it and then you know oh he can freeze it and then you know oh he can freeze it and then you know kind of figure about where it goes from kind of figure about where it goes from kind of figure about where it goes from there what other pressure he can put on there what other pressure he can put on there what other pressure he can put on I mean I'm sure he's confident to get I mean I'm sure he's confident to get I mean I'm sure he's confident to get rid of zelenski and and he can Prevail

rid of zelenski and and he can Prevail rid of zelenski and and he can Prevail over us I mean look I mean the UK is over us I mean look I mean the UK is over us I mean look I mean the UK is going through Prime Ministers you know going through Prime Ministers you know going through Prime Ministers you know faster than I'm changing my socks you faster than I'm changing my socks you faster than I'm changing my socks you know so it's like uh you know he can you know so it's like uh you know he can you know so it's like uh you know he can you know Prevail on the um you know know Prevail on the um you know know Prevail on the um you know basically he can basically he can basically he can it can have an impact on the political it can have an impact on the political it can have an impact on the political scene in Europe and elsewhere I mean scene in Europe and elsewhere I mean scene in Europe and elsewhere I mean again everyone's talking about winter again everyone's talking about winter again everyone's talking about winter coming and I know Putin's thinking yeah coming and I know Putin's thinking yeah coming and I know Putin's thinking yeah great I've you know destroyed the great I've you know destroyed the great I've you know destroyed the infrastructure of infrastructure of infrastructure of you're worried about the winter you're worried about the winter you're worried about the winter well yeah but I mean look the other well yeah but I mean look the other well yeah but I mean look the other thing is that is to start we've got the home front to think about we've got the home front to think about as well Putin has declared war on us as well Putin has declared war on us as well Putin has declared war on us they did that on September 30th he's they did that on September 30th he's they did that on September 30th he's done it at other points as well we've done it at other points as well we've done it at other points as well we've just not paid attention but it pretty just not paid attention but it pretty just not paid attention but it pretty much pretty explicit in September 30th I much pretty explicit in September 30th I much pretty explicit in September 30th I mean go back and watch that speech mean go back and watch that speech mean go back and watch that speech and you know he and you know he and you know he is gambling that you know people will go is gambling that you know people will go is gambling that you know people will go back you know to basically taking back you know to basically taking back you know to basically taking Russian gas and oil but it's not going Russian gas and oil but it's not going Russian gas and oil but it's not going to be that simple as well and do people to be that simple as well and do people to be that simple as well and do people and then you know the question has to be and then you know the question has to be and then you know the question has to be do we really kind of think he's going to do we really kind of think he's going to do we really kind of think he's going to play a fair after that well he's kind of play a fair after that well he's kind of play a fair after that well he's kind of also shown that he can leverage that also shown that he can leverage that also shown that he can leverage that it's such a complicated world it is it's such a complicated world it is it's such a complicated world it is complicated it's very complicated it's complicated it's very complicated it's complicated it's very complicated it's never I mean this it feels like things never I mean this it feels like things never I mean this it feels like things are heating up are heating up are heating up like like like and China and China and China is very quiet right now because they're is very quiet right now because they're is very quiet right now because they're watching what happens I mean for watching what happens I mean for watching what happens I mean for president she president she president she you know is trying to consolidate his

you know is trying to consolidate his you know is trying to consolidate his power even further after the party power even further after the party power even further after the party Congress but he doesn't want to look Congress but he doesn't want to look Congress but he doesn't want to look like he made a mistake by bucking Putin like he made a mistake by bucking Putin like he made a mistake by bucking Putin I mean he thought Putin was also going I mean he thought Putin was also going I mean he thought Putin was also going to be you know to be you know to be you know Ukraine would probably be open for Ukraine would probably be open for Ukraine would probably be open for massive Chinese investment China was the massive Chinese investment China was the massive Chinese investment China was the largest investor in Ukraine largest investor in Ukraine largest investor in Ukraine before the wall before the wall before the wall largest single investor I mean the EU largest single investor I mean the EU largest single investor I mean the EU was bigger of course how do you hope the was bigger of course how do you hope the was bigger of course how do you hope the war ends in Ukraine war ends in Ukraine war ends in Ukraine well I mean I I do hope and you know well I mean I I do hope and you know well I mean I I do hope and you know with a ceasefire and negotiated solution with a ceasefire and negotiated solution with a ceasefire and negotiated solution but it has to be with Russia but it has to be with Russia but it has to be with Russia compromising on something and that's not compromising on something and that's not compromising on something and that's not where we are right now do you think both where we are right now do you think both where we are right now do you think both sides might be willing to compromise sides might be willing to compromise sides might be willing to compromise most wars always end in that way I mean most wars always end in that way I mean most wars always end in that way I mean nobody's ever happy but they don't seem nobody's ever happy but they don't seem nobody's ever happy but they don't seem to either side like legitimately doesn't to either side like legitimately doesn't to either side like legitimately doesn't want to compromise right now yeah want to compromise right now yeah want to compromise right now yeah because somebody look the thing is that because somebody look the thing is that because somebody look the thing is that um for Ukraine right now anything is a um for Ukraine right now anything is a um for Ukraine right now anything is a compromise at its expense right yeah compromise at its expense right yeah compromise at its expense right yeah fast devastation fast devastation fast devastation unbelievable casualty rates unbelievable casualty rates unbelievable casualty rates biggest Refugee crisis since World War biggest Refugee crisis since World War biggest Refugee crisis since World War II Russia's just said sorry this is our II Russia's just said sorry this is our II Russia's just said sorry this is our territories not just Crimea I think territories not just Crimea I think territories not just Crimea I think there could have been a negotiation over there could have been a negotiation over there could have been a negotiation over that that that but you know danette's coming we've got but you know danette's coming we've got but you know danette's coming we've got all kinds of formulas we've had all the all kinds of formulas we've had all the all kinds of formulas we've had all the way through history of you know putting way through history of you know putting way through history of you know putting things under a kind of guardianship things under a kind of guardianship things under a kind of guardianship receivership of territory the United receivership of territory the United receivership of territory the United Nations all kinds of different ways of Nations all kinds of different ways of Nations all kinds of different ways of formulating that we could have easily formulating that we could have easily formulating that we could have easily been creative but Russia's basically been creative but Russia's basically been creative but Russia's basically saying sorry we've taken this and any saying sorry we've taken this and any saying sorry we've taken this and any other negotiations just you recognizing

other negotiations just you recognizing other negotiations just you recognizing this for us not doing more destruction I this for us not doing more destruction I this for us not doing more destruction I mean that is not the basis for mean that is not the basis for mean that is not the basis for negotiation negotiation negotiation and you know having you know kind of and you know having you know kind of and you know having you know kind of people come and just sort of laying people come and just sort of laying people come and just sort of laying those terms down is not a starting those terms down is not a starting those terms down is not a starting position position position I think Russia I think Russia I think Russia is also you know in a in a dilemma of is also you know in a in a dilemma of is also you know in a in a dilemma of its own making now because Putin has its own making now because Putin has its own making now because Putin has made it very difficult you know to made it very difficult you know to made it very difficult you know to compromise just by everything that he compromise just by everything that he compromise just by everything that he said said said now for Ukraine they've already won now for Ukraine they've already won now for Ukraine they've already won a great moral political and Military a great moral political and Military a great moral political and Military victory victory victory it's just hard to see it right at the it's just hard to see it right at the it's just hard to see it right at the particular moment they've done what the particular moment they've done what the particular moment they've done what the Finns did in the winter War which the Finns did in the winter War which the Finns did in the winter War which the Finns were devastated by the winter War Finns were devastated by the winter War Finns were devastated by the winter War as well but they pushed them back as well but they pushed them back as well but they pushed them back now the fins lost a lot of territory now the fins lost a lot of territory now the fins lost a lot of territory there's corellia and you know huge there's corellia and you know huge there's corellia and you know huge spares of territory but spares of territory but spares of territory but they got to be Finland they got to be Finland they got to be Finland and I know now they're you know joining and I know now they're you know joining and I know now they're you know joining NATO but they've been part of the EU the NATO but they've been part of the EU the NATO but they've been part of the EU the question is how to question is how to question is how to you know get Ukraine to be you know get Ukraine to be you know get Ukraine to be Ukraine in a success Ukraine in a success Ukraine in a success but you know is and that's the challenge but you know is and that's the challenge but you know is and that's the challenge now again they've already won now again they've already won now again they've already won psychologically politically militarily psychologically politically militarily psychologically politically militarily because Putin doesn't because Putin doesn't because Putin doesn't succeeded in what he wanted to do but he succeeded in what he wanted to do but he succeeded in what he wanted to do but he has succeeded in completely and utterly has succeeded in completely and utterly has succeeded in completely and utterly devastating them and this is the kind of devastating them and this is the kind of devastating them and this is the kind of the old muscovite the old muscovite the old muscovite the old Russian imperial old server the old Russian imperial old server the old Russian imperial old server mentality you know going all the way mentality you know going all the way mentality you know going all the way back to when the muscovites were the bag back to when the muscovites were the bag back to when the muscovites were the bag men for the you know the horde the for men for the you know the horde the for men for the you know the horde the for the Mongols it was destruction you know the Mongols it was destruction you know the Mongols it was destruction you know you don't play with us we'll destroy you you don't play with us we'll destroy you you don't play with us we'll destroy you you know people talk about it as Mafia you know people talk about it as Mafia you know people talk about it as Mafia but it's older you know all you have to

but it's older you know all you have to but it's older you know all you have to go does you go and see tarkovsky's Andre go does you go and see tarkovsky's Andre go does you go and see tarkovsky's Andre Rubio I mean I remember you know seeing Rubio I mean I remember you know seeing Rubio I mean I remember you know seeing that film when I was first as a student that film when I was first as a student that film when I was first as a student in Moscow and just being whoa this is so in Moscow and just being whoa this is so in Moscow and just being whoa this is so brutal brutal brutal I mean this is just unremittingly brutal I mean this is just unremittingly brutal I mean this is just unremittingly brutal because the whole point is because the whole point is because the whole point is that you show people who's the Boss that you show people who's the Boss that you show people who's the Boss the destruction is the point of things the destruction is the point of things the destruction is the point of things as well as well as well because because because you know you are emphasizing your you know you are emphasizing your you know you are emphasizing your domination domination domination and that's what Putin is doing right now and that's what Putin is doing right now and that's what Putin is doing right now is saying okay you want to go in a is saying okay you want to go in a is saying okay you want to go in a different direction so be it but I'm different direction so be it but I'm different direction so be it but I'm Gonna Make You Suffer remember when Gonna Make You Suffer remember when Gonna Make You Suffer remember when hodokowsky got out of hodokowsky got out of hodokowsky got out of um the penal colony when Putin let him um the penal colony when Putin let him um the penal colony when Putin let him out eventually he said he suffered out eventually he said he suffered out eventually he said he suffered enough enough enough but he suffered for 10 11 years but he suffered for 10 11 years but he suffered for 10 11 years I don't think Putin feels that Ukraine I don't think Putin feels that Ukraine I don't think Putin feels that Ukraine has suffered enough at this point or we has suffered enough at this point or we has suffered enough at this point or we have suffered so there's a part of this have suffered so there's a part of this have suffered so there's a part of this Invasion there's punishment for Invasion there's punishment for Invasion there's punishment for something yeah it's medieval something yeah it's medieval something yeah it's medieval I mean look we're all capable of the I mean look we're all capable of the I mean look we're all capable of the same things right there was a lot of same things right there was a lot of same things right there was a lot of Destruction and that's what Assad was Destruction and that's what Assad was Destruction and that's what Assad was like in Syria like his father like in Syria like his father like in Syria like his father you destroy because you teach him a you destroy because you teach him a you destroy because you teach him a lesson lesson lesson and look Britain did that in the and look Britain did that in the and look Britain did that in the colonial era I mean all the history of colonial era I mean all the history of colonial era I mean all the history of British colonialism is exactly the same British colonialism is exactly the same British colonialism is exactly the same you know up until recent times brutality you know up until recent times brutality you know up until recent times brutality teaching people you know if teaching teaching people you know if teaching teaching people you know if teaching them a lesson you have to suffer the US them a lesson you have to suffer the US them a lesson you have to suffer the US did it I mean we did it with the Native did it I mean we did it with the Native did it I mean we did it with the Native Americans you know we did it all over Americans you know we did it all over Americans you know we did it all over the place you know as well this is kind

the place you know as well this is kind the place you know as well this is kind of what big you know states do of what big you know states do of what big you know states do at different points in history just that at different points in history just that at different points in history just that you know Russia's not moved on from that you know Russia's not moved on from that you know Russia's not moved on from that I mean we've learned some lessons late I I mean we've learned some lessons late I I mean we've learned some lessons late I hope you know we're fully internalized hope you know we're fully internalized hope you know we're fully internalized them of you know things that we've done them of you know things that we've done them of you know things that we've done you know kind of past the United States you know kind of past the United States you know kind of past the United States ideally are trying to do better and most ideally are trying to do better and most ideally are trying to do better and most of Europe's trying to do better as well of Europe's trying to do better as well of Europe's trying to do better as well think about France in Algeria you know think about France in Algeria you know think about France in Algeria you know again you know we can see this in many again you know we can see this in many again you know we can see this in many different settings different settings different settings but I think you know for Putin right now but I think you know for Putin right now but I think you know for Putin right now he hasn't taught all of us sufficient a he hasn't taught all of us sufficient a he hasn't taught all of us sufficient a lesson lesson lesson I just I talked to hundreds of people in I just I talked to hundreds of people in I just I talked to hundreds of people in Ukraine and um Ukraine and um Ukraine and um the tough thing the tough thing the tough thing they're inspiring things that there's a they're inspiring things that there's a they're inspiring things that there's a Unity the tough thing is Unity the tough thing is Unity the tough thing is a lot of them speak intensely of hate a lot of them speak intensely of hate a lot of them speak intensely of hate towards not just Russia but Russians towards not just Russia but Russians towards not just Russia but Russians Russians that's how Europeans felt about Russians that's how Europeans felt about Russians that's how Europeans felt about Germany and Germans at the end of World Germany and Germans at the end of World Germany and Germans at the end of World War II War II War II and uh generational hate like well I and uh generational hate like well I and uh generational hate like well I don't think that hate is gonna pass well don't think that hate is gonna pass well don't think that hate is gonna pass well it might it might well take a generation it might it might well take a generation it might it might well take a generation I mean I won when I was a kid in the 70s I mean I won when I was a kid in the 70s I mean I won when I was a kid in the 70s I went on exchanges to Germany I went on exchanges to Germany I went on exchanges to Germany and that was like you know 30 years more and that was like you know 30 years more and that was like you know 30 years more than 30 years after the end of the war than 30 years after the end of the war than 30 years after the end of the war my grandfather had fought in World War my grandfather had fought in World War my grandfather had fought in World War One or wouldn't speak to my parents when One or wouldn't speak to my parents when One or wouldn't speak to my parents when they sent me on a they sent me on a they sent me on a um then we hadn't thought World War II um then we hadn't thought World War II um then we hadn't thought World War II we fought World War one he hated the we fought World War one he hated the we fought World War one he hated the Germans Germans Germans and he and he did not want me going you and he and he did not want me going you and he and he did not want me going you know to Germany as an ex-gen student he know to Germany as an ex-gen student he know to Germany as an ex-gen student he refused to meet you know kind of the refused to meet you know kind of the refused to meet you know kind of the German kid who you know came to stay at German kid who you know came to stay at German kid who you know came to stay at my house you know for example I mean it

my house you know for example I mean it my house you know for example I mean it takes a long time to and it takes a long takes a long time to and it takes a long takes a long time to and it takes a long time to get over that but but you do I time to get over that but but you do I time to get over that but but you do I mean and we have we have in Europe and mean and we have we have in Europe and mean and we have we have in Europe and that was the whole point that was the whole point that was the whole point of you know all that kind of exercise of of you know all that kind of exercise of of you know all that kind of exercise of European Unity after World War II now European Unity after World War II now European Unity after World War II now the big challenge is the big challenge is the big challenge is what do we do with Russia because a lot what do we do with Russia because a lot what do we do with Russia because a lot of people are talking now we can't have of people are talking now we can't have of people are talking now we can't have European security without Russia that European security without Russia that European security without Russia that people are saying we can't have a Europe people are saying we can't have a Europe people are saying we can't have a Europe you know kind of with Russia you know kind of with Russia you know kind of with Russia you know so how do we deal with this we you know so how do we deal with this we you know so how do we deal with this we we've got to basically kind of it's we've got to basically kind of it's we've got to basically kind of it's gonna be like Japan and Germany after gonna be like Japan and Germany after gonna be like Japan and Germany after World War II after this just the level World War II after this just the level World War II after this just the level of the atrocities that have been carried of the atrocities that have been carried of the atrocities that have been carried out as you said the level of hatred out as you said the level of hatred out as you said the level of hatred but we found a way of doing it but we found a way of doing it but we found a way of doing it now it a lot of it will require change now it a lot of it will require change now it a lot of it will require change on the part of Russia as well and on the part of Russia as well and on the part of Russia as well and Russians and really thinking about this Russians and really thinking about this Russians and really thinking about this I mean Gorbachev before tried to do in I mean Gorbachev before tried to do in I mean Gorbachev before tried to do in the late 1980s with the black spots in the late 1980s with the black spots in the late 1980s with the black spots in with glass slots with openness and with glass slots with openness and with glass slots with openness and talking about Russian history just kind talking about Russian history just kind talking about Russian history just kind of never sort of withered on the vine as of never sort of withered on the vine as of never sort of withered on the vine as time went on time went on time went on what gives you hope about the future what gives you hope about the future what gives you hope about the future well my hope comes into the fact that well my hope comes into the fact that well my hope comes into the fact that we've done things before that we've got we've done things before that we've got we've done things before that we've got ourselves out of tough times and we've ourselves out of tough times and we've ourselves out of tough times and we've overcome stuff and in people because I overcome stuff and in people because I overcome stuff and in people because I meet amazing people you just talked meet amazing people you just talked meet amazing people you just talked about hundreds of people that you've met about hundreds of people that you've met about hundreds of people that you've met with in Ukraine with in Ukraine with in Ukraine and you know people all think and you know people all think and you know people all think differently contexts and circumstances differently contexts and circumstances differently contexts and circumstances change and people can evolve some people change and people can evolve some people change and people can evolve some people get stuck Putin's got stuck but people get stuck Putin's got stuck but people get stuck Putin's got stuck but people can evolve can evolve can evolve and you know I do think that if we all

and you know I do think that if we all and you know I do think that if we all pull together and we've seen this in so pull together and we've seen this in so pull together and we've seen this in so many contexts we can find solutions to many contexts we can find solutions to many contexts we can find solutions to things just like we get back again to things just like we get back again to things just like we get back again to our discussion about scientists and just our discussion about scientists and just our discussion about scientists and just the kind of amazing breakthroughs of the kind of amazing breakthroughs of the kind of amazing breakthroughs of you know what we did on covid or done on you know what we did on covid or done on you know what we did on covid or done on you know kind of other you know diseases you know kind of other you know diseases you know kind of other you know diseases and things and look there there is some and things and look there there is some and things and look there there is some similarities there's a pathology around similarities there's a pathology around similarities there's a pathology around war and conflict war and conflict war and conflict years ago in the 1990s I worked on you years ago in the 1990s I worked on you years ago in the 1990s I worked on you know a lot of the projects that were know a lot of the projects that were know a lot of the projects that were funded by the Carnegie Corporation of funded by the Carnegie Corporation of funded by the Carnegie Corporation of the United States under the then the United States under the then the United States under the then presidency of David Hamburg who was a presidency of David Hamburg who was a presidency of David Hamburg who was a scientist and actually did see a lot of scientist and actually did see a lot of scientist and actually did see a lot of parallels between the sort of like the parallels between the sort of like the parallels between the sort of like the pathology of disease and you know kind pathology of disease and you know kind pathology of disease and you know kind of the the of the the of the the pestilence you know of conflict kind of pestilence you know of conflict kind of pestilence you know of conflict kind of idea and of course these you know idea and of course these you know idea and of course these you know parallels had to be very careful because parallels had to be very careful because parallels had to be very careful because you know they're not neat but there was you know they're not neat but there was you know they're not neat but there was kind of like an idea in there and how do kind of like an idea in there and how do kind of like an idea in there and how do you sort of treat this how do you deal you sort of treat this how do you deal you sort of treat this how do you deal with this with this with this and we did come up with all kinds of of and we did come up with all kinds of of and we did come up with all kinds of of ideas and you know things that are still ideas and you know things that are still ideas and you know things that are still out there we've created institutions out there we've created institutions out there we've created institutions that have helped to keep the peace we that have helped to keep the peace we that have helped to keep the peace we just have neglected them allowed them to just have neglected them allowed them to just have neglected them allowed them to degrade just like the United Nations and degrade just like the United Nations and degrade just like the United Nations and you know we've created problems inside you know we've created problems inside you know we've created problems inside of them like the veto power of the of them like the veto power of the of them like the veto power of the permanent powers on the permanent powers on the permanent powers on the U.N security Council but we can change U.N security Council but we can change U.N security Council but we can change that he's just gonna have a will and I that he's just gonna have a will and I that he's just gonna have a will and I do think out there there are sufficient do think out there there are sufficient do think out there there are sufficient people with a will and we've just got to people with a will and we've just got to people with a will and we've just got to get people mobilized I mean I'm always get people mobilized I mean I'm always get people mobilized I mean I'm always amazed by how people can mobilize amazed by how people can mobilize amazed by how people can mobilize themselves around a crisis remember themselves around a crisis remember themselves around a crisis remember Winston Churchill I don't quite all the Winston Churchill I don't quite all the Winston Churchill I don't quite all the time because I can never remember half time because I can never remember half time because I can never remember half his quotes but I do remember the one

his quotes but I do remember the one his quotes but I do remember the one about never let a good crisis go to about never let a good crisis go to about never let a good crisis go to waste and I always think that that you waste and I always think that that you waste and I always think that that you know yeah that we should we shouldn't know yeah that we should we shouldn't know yeah that we should we shouldn't let this crisis go to waste and let this crisis go to waste and let this crisis go to waste and something else can come out of this just something else can come out of this just something else can come out of this just like in Ukraine like we've worried like in Ukraine like we've worried like in Ukraine like we've worried before about corruption in Ukraine the before about corruption in Ukraine the before about corruption in Ukraine the influence of the oligarchs we've got to influence of the oligarchs we've got to influence of the oligarchs we've got to run oligarchs here in the US we need to run oligarchs here in the US we need to run oligarchs here in the US we need to you know deal with as well but this is a you know deal with as well but this is a you know deal with as well but this is a chance to do it differently chance to do it differently chance to do it differently yeah it really is a chance to do things yeah it really is a chance to do things yeah it really is a chance to do things differently and a part of that is young differently and a part of that is young differently and a part of that is young people I have to ask you and as young people I have to ask you and as young people I have to ask you and as young people I mean I'm feeling a bit on the people I mean I'm feeling a bit on the people I mean I'm feeling a bit on the older side now but I still feel I've got older side now but I still feel I've got older side now but I still feel I've got you know a bit of you know kind of Youth you know a bit of you know kind of Youth you know a bit of you know kind of Youth within me at 57 I'm not battled but I'm within me at 57 I'm not battled but I'm within me at 57 I'm not battled but I'm not that young but we have to work not that young but we have to work not that young but we have to work together with younger and older people together with younger and older people together with younger and older people come together in coalitions of you know come together in coalitions of you know come together in coalitions of you know across Generations you remind me of of across Generations you remind me of of across Generations you remind me of of uh kids who just graduated college and uh kids who just graduated college and uh kids who just graduated college and say and I I'm I feel old say and I I'm I feel old say and I I'm I feel old so yeah no I don't actually feel old but so yeah no I don't actually feel old but so yeah no I don't actually feel old but it is a number Edge and you know when it is a number Edge and you know when it is a number Edge and you know when you know you kind of think about when I you know you kind of think about when I you know you kind of think about when I was I thought you don't like math yeah was I thought you don't like math yeah was I thought you don't like math yeah like things like that yeah but I find it like things like that yeah but I find it like things like that yeah but I find it interesting but you know when I was I interesting but you know when I was I interesting but you know when I was I remember when I was a little kid I kept remember when I was a little kid I kept remember when I was a little kid I kept thinking about the year 2000 and I thinking about the year 2000 and I thinking about the year 2000 and I thought oh my God I'll be dead I'll be thought oh my God I'll be dead I'll be thought oh my God I'll be dead I'll be 35.

35. 35. that's 22 years ago that's 22 years ago that's 22 years ago you've overcome a lot of struggle in you've overcome a lot of struggle in you've overcome a lot of struggle in your life your life your life uh based on different reasons as you uh based on different reasons as you uh based on different reasons as you write about uh write about uh write about uh class being one of them class being one of them class being one of them your funny sounding accent being another your funny sounding accent being another your funny sounding accent being another or just a representation of class or just a representation of class or just a representation of class um but in general um but in general um but in general through all of that to be at the White through all of that to be at the White through all of that to be at the White House House House to be one of the most powerful voices to be one of the most powerful voices to be one of the most powerful voices in the world what advice would you give in the world what advice would you give in the world what advice would you give from grounded in your life story to from grounded in your life story to from grounded in your life story to somebody who's young somebody who's in somebody who's young somebody who's in somebody who's young somebody who's in high school in college thinking of how high school in college thinking of how high school in college thinking of how they can have a big positive impact on they can have a big positive impact on they can have a big positive impact on the world well we all have a voice the world well we all have a voice the world well we all have a voice right we all have agency we all actually right we all have agency we all actually right we all have agency we all actually have the ability to do something and you have the ability to do something and you have the ability to do something and you can you know start small in your local can you know start small in your local can you know start small in your local community or you know even in your own community or you know even in your own community or you know even in your own classroom just helping you know somebody classroom just helping you know somebody classroom just helping you know somebody else out or speaking up and advocating else out or speaking up and advocating else out or speaking up and advocating on behalf of things on behalf of things on behalf of things you know when I was a I was like about you know when I was a I was like about you know when I was a I was like about 11 years old I got involved with the 11 years old I got involved with the 11 years old I got involved with the kids on Save the whales you know we had kids on Save the whales you know we had kids on Save the whales you know we had all this you know kind of we were hardly all this you know kind of we were hardly all this you know kind of we were hardly Greta sunberg but we you know we kind of Greta sunberg but we you know we kind of Greta sunberg but we you know we kind of got together in a kind of network got together in a kind of network got together in a kind of network writing to people and you know trying to writing to people and you know trying to writing to people and you know trying to raise money to you know help save the raise money to you know help save the raise money to you know help save the world now actually the whales of the world now actually the whales of the world now actually the whales of the world are doing somewhat better I can't world are doing somewhat better I can't world are doing somewhat better I can't say that that was because of me and my say that that was because of me and my say that that was because of me and my network but you know it was kind of a network but you know it was kind of a network but you know it was kind of a way of organizing and you know kind of way of organizing and you know kind of way of organizing and you know kind of joining in at a larger movement joining in at a larger movement joining in at a larger movement everybody can be part of something everybody can be part of something everybody can be part of something bigger the the thing is is it's all bigger the the thing is is it's all bigger the the thing is is it's all about working together with others and about working together with others and about working together with others and giving other people a chance as well I

giving other people a chance as well I giving other people a chance as well I think you know one thing is that our think you know one thing is that our think you know one thing is that our voices voices voices have more impact when they're Amplified have more impact when they're Amplified have more impact when they're Amplified they don't have to be the voices of they don't have to be the voices of they don't have to be the voices of Discord or the voices of hate Discord or the voices of hate Discord or the voices of hate you know you've been you know trying to you know you've been you know trying to you know you've been you know trying to do this with your podcast you know kind do this with your podcast you know kind do this with your podcast you know kind of give people a voice give them a kind of give people a voice give them a kind of give people a voice give them a kind of platform and you know get them to of platform and you know get them to of platform and you know get them to join in with other people join in with other people join in with other people and you know one of the things I've been and you know one of the things I've been and you know one of the things I've been trying to do is you know kind of go and trying to do is you know kind of go and trying to do is you know kind of go and talk to just as many people as I talk to just as many people as I talk to just as many people as I possibly can and say look you know we possibly can and say look you know we possibly can and say look you know we can all do something here can all do something here can all do something here we can all you know lend our voices to a we can all you know lend our voices to a we can all you know lend our voices to a cause that we care deeply about we can cause that we care deeply about we can cause that we care deeply about we can be kind to each other we can give other be kind to each other we can give other be kind to each other we can give other people a chance we can kind of speak out people a chance we can kind of speak out people a chance we can kind of speak out while we see that you know something is while we see that you know something is while we see that you know something is wrong and we can try to you know explain wrong and we can try to you know explain wrong and we can try to you know explain things to people and and what I'm trying things to people and and what I'm trying things to people and and what I'm trying to do at the moment is just sort of to do at the moment is just sort of to do at the moment is just sort of explain you know what I've learned about explain you know what I've learned about explain you know what I've learned about things and you know hope that that helps things and you know hope that that helps things and you know hope that that helps people make informed judgments of their people make informed judgments of their people make informed judgments of their own and that you know kind of maybe take own and that you know kind of maybe take own and that you know kind of maybe take things further and learn something more things further and learn something more things further and learn something more it's like kind of like building up on it's like kind of like building up on it's like kind of like building up on you know the knowledge you know the knowledge you know the knowledge you know that that I have you know to you know that that I have you know to you know that that I have you know to try to Impossible and everybody can do try to Impossible and everybody can do try to Impossible and everybody can do that different ways you can kind of like that different ways you can kind of like that different ways you can kind of like reach back you know if you're 14 help reach back you know if you're 14 help reach back you know if you're 14 help somebody who's seven if you're 21 help somebody who's seven if you're 21 help somebody who's seven if you're 21 help somebody who's 14. you know kind of if somebody who's 14. you know kind of if somebody who's 14. you know kind of if in you know the kind of uh my age now in you know the kind of uh my age now in you know the kind of uh my age now I'm always trying to you know reach back I'm always trying to you know reach back I'm always trying to you know reach back and and and you know work with uh younger people you know work with uh younger people you know work with uh younger people listen to younger people help them out listen to younger people help them out listen to younger people help them out make connections uh for them listen to make connections uh for them listen to make connections uh for them listen to what they have to say about something what they have to say about something what they have to say about something try to incorporate that and you know try to incorporate that and you know try to incorporate that and you know things that I'm saying as well the main things that I'm saying as well the main things that I'm saying as well the main point is that we've all got a voice point is that we've all got a voice point is that we've all got a voice we've all got agency and it always works we've all got agency and it always works we've all got agency and it always works better when we work together with other better when we work together with other better when we work together with other people but sometimes you can feel pretty

people but sometimes you can feel pretty people but sometimes you can feel pretty hopeless you can feel hopeless you can feel hopeless you can feel I mean there's low points you seem to I mean there's low points you seem to I mean there's low points you seem to have a kind of uh Restless energy a have a kind of uh Restless energy a have a kind of uh Restless energy a drive to you or there are low points in drive to you or there are low points in drive to you or there are low points in in the beginning when in the beginning when in the beginning when um um um in your early days when you're trying to in your early days when you're trying to in your early days when you're trying to get the education where it may have not get the education where it may have not get the education where it may have not been cleared to you that you could be at been cleared to you that you could be at been cleared to you that you could be at all successful yeah they're always all successful yeah they're always all successful yeah they're always they're always but I mean there were they're always but I mean there were they're always but I mean there were lots of points where I was just lots of points where I was just lots of points where I was just despondent but then you know I'd meet despondent but then you know I'd meet despondent but then you know I'd meet somebody who would just suddenly turn somebody who would just suddenly turn somebody who would just suddenly turn things around I was this a lot called things around I was this a lot called things around I was this a lot called was I out there looking for it you know was I out there looking for it you know was I out there looking for it you know sometimes you know you just if you're sometimes you know you just if you're sometimes you know you just if you're open and receptive to you know kind of open and receptive to you know kind of open and receptive to you know kind of uh hearing something from someone else I uh hearing something from someone else I uh hearing something from someone else I mean I you know often times when I felt mean I you know often times when I felt mean I you know often times when I felt so despondent you know in such a black so despondent you know in such a black so despondent you know in such a black mood I didn't think I'd be able to go on mood I didn't think I'd be able to go on mood I didn't think I'd be able to go on and then I'd have a chance conversation and then I'd have a chance conversation and then I'd have a chance conversation with somebody I mean I want to remember with somebody I mean I want to remember with somebody I mean I want to remember you know I was sitting on a bench it was you know I was sitting on a bench it was you know I was sitting on a bench it was probably 11 or 12 just crying my eyes probably 11 or 12 just crying my eyes probably 11 or 12 just crying my eyes out just really upset and an old lady out just really upset and an old lady out just really upset and an old lady just came and sat next to me put a arm just came and sat next to me put a arm just came and sat next to me put a arm around me said oh it's all right pet around me said oh it's all right pet around me said oh it's all right pet what's the matter you know it can't be what's the matter you know it can't be what's the matter you know it can't be that bad can it and it was just this that bad can it and it was just this that bad can it and it was just this human embrace it's like somebody human embrace it's like somebody human embrace it's like somebody you know just basically reaching out to you know just basically reaching out to you know just basically reaching out to me that snapped me out of it and I me that snapped me out of it and I me that snapped me out of it and I thought you know here's somebody just thought you know here's somebody just thought you know here's somebody just you know she didn't know who I was she you know she didn't know who I was she you know she didn't know who I was she just felt really bad that I was you know just felt really bad that I was you know just felt really bad that I was you know sitting you know crying and I mean I sitting you know crying and I mean I sitting you know crying and I mean I can't even remember what it was about can't even remember what it was about can't even remember what it was about anymore you know now it just seems anymore you know now it just seems anymore you know now it just seems inconsequential at the time I probably inconsequential at the time I probably inconsequential at the time I probably thought my life was at an end just you thought my life was at an end just you thought my life was at an end just you know sometimes people making eye contact know sometimes people making eye contact know sometimes people making eye contact with him in the street and saying with him in the street and saying with him in the street and saying something to you can kind of pull you something to you can kind of pull you something to you can kind of pull you out of something out of something out of something and you know it's kind of a I think you

and you know it's kind of a I think you and you know it's kind of a I think you just have to open yourself up to the just have to open yourself up to the just have to open yourself up to the prospect that not everyone's bad just prospect that not everyone's bad just prospect that not everyone's bad just like you're saying before that there's like you're saying before that there's like you're saying before that there's you know good in everybody even during you know good in everybody even during you know good in everybody even during you know that really difficult period of you know that really difficult period of you know that really difficult period of impeachment you know I was trying to impeachment you know I was trying to impeachment you know I was trying to listen very carefully to people and I listen very carefully to people and I listen very carefully to people and I thought we always we still have thought we always we still have thought we always we still have something in common here we need to something in common here we need to something in common here we need to remember that remember that remember that you know kind of when people are kind of you know kind of when people are kind of you know kind of when people are kind of forgetting who they are or you know the forgetting who they are or you know the forgetting who they are or you know the context and they're operating there's context and they're operating there's context and they're operating there's always something that can you know can always something that can you know can always something that can you know can pull you back again there's always that pull you back again there's always that pull you back again there's always that kind of thread so I'm sure you were kind of thread so I'm sure you were kind of thread so I'm sure you were probably attacked probably attacked probably attacked by a lot of people by a lot of people by a lot of people and you're still able to keep that and you're still able to keep that and you're still able to keep that optimism that well I kept it into kind optimism that well I kept it into kind optimism that well I kept it into kind of perspective like when I was a kid I of perspective like when I was a kid I of perspective like when I was a kid I mean things were mentioned before I got mean things were mentioned before I got mean things were mentioned before I got bullied you know kind of again and I try bullied you know kind of again and I try bullied you know kind of again and I try to understand why they're doing this to understand why they're doing this to understand why they're doing this one of the most amazing things one of the most amazing things one of the most amazing things that happened you know really on was my that happened you know really on was my that happened you know really on was my my dad was a pretty incredible person my dad was a pretty incredible person my dad was a pretty incredible person and he would always open my eyes to and he would always open my eyes to and he would always open my eyes to something I was getting bullied really something I was getting bullied really something I was getting bullied really nastly by a girl at school and my dad nastly by a girl at school and my dad nastly by a girl at school and my dad started asking me questions about her started asking me questions about her started asking me questions about her and one day my dad's been gonna go for a and one day my dad's been gonna go for a and one day my dad's been gonna go for a walk walk walk and my Town's very small remember it's and my Town's very small remember it's and my Town's very small remember it's very depressed really you know deprived very depressed really you know deprived very depressed really you know deprived area and we go to this housing estate area and we go to this housing estate area and we go to this housing estate public housing place that's not too far public housing place that's not too far public housing place that's not too far away from where I live and it's really away from where I live and it's really away from where I live and it's really you know kind of one of the most you know kind of one of the most you know kind of one of the most run-down places and already run down run-down places and already run down run-down places and already run down players my dad like knocks on the door players my dad like knocks on the door players my dad like knocks on the door and I said what are we doing Dad and I and I said what are we doing Dad and I and I said what are we doing Dad and I said he said we're going off to you know said he said we're going off to you know said he said we're going off to you know we're going to visit somebody an old we're going to visit somebody an old we're going to visit somebody an old family friend uh I think even though you family friend uh I think even though you family friend uh I think even though you know a distant relative a knock on the know a distant relative a knock on the know a distant relative a knock on the door this old man answers the door and

door this old man answers the door and door this old man answers the door and he's oh Alfie my dad's name is alfalfi he's oh Alfie my dad's name is alfalfi he's oh Alfie my dad's name is alfalfi you know kind of oh fancy seeing you we you know kind of oh fancy seeing you we you know kind of oh fancy seeing you we haven't seen you come on in have a cup haven't seen you come on in have a cup haven't seen you come on in have a cup of tea what are you doing today I'm just of tea what are you doing today I'm just of tea what are you doing today I'm just walking past my daughter we're going for walking past my daughter we're going for walking past my daughter we're going for a trip then we're going for it we're a trip then we're going for it we're a trip then we're going for it we're going for a walk and then suddenly I see going for a walk and then suddenly I see going for a walk and then suddenly I see that girl and she's in the kitchen and that girl and she's in the kitchen and that girl and she's in the kitchen and I'm thinking oh my God bloody hell you I'm thinking oh my God bloody hell you I'm thinking oh my God bloody hell you know British expression what's this and know British expression what's this and know British expression what's this and it turns out that Dad had figured out it turns out that Dad had figured out it turns out that Dad had figured out who she was who she was who she was and he knew her grandfather and she was and he knew her grandfather and she was and he knew her grandfather and she was living with her grandfather and she'd living with her grandfather and she'd living with her grandfather and she'd been abandoned by her parents and she been abandoned by her parents and she been abandoned by her parents and she was living in you know pretty dire was living in you know pretty dire was living in you know pretty dire circumstances and she'd been getting circumstances and she'd been getting circumstances and she'd been getting raised by a grandfather and she was just raised by a grandfather and she was just raised by a grandfather and she was just miserable miserable miserable and the reason she was bullying me was and the reason she was bullying me was and the reason she was bullying me was to make herself feel better yeah and to make herself feel better yeah and to make herself feel better yeah and after that she never bullied me again I after that she never bullied me again I after that she never bullied me again I mean we didn't even talk mean we didn't even talk mean we didn't even talk because there was a connection murdered because there was a connection murdered because there was a connection murdered and suddenly she realized that her and suddenly she realized that her and suddenly she realized that her grandfather who was the only person she grandfather who was the only person she grandfather who was the only person she had had had knew my dad and there was some they were knew my dad and there was some they were knew my dad and there was some they were friends or they were even family some friends or they were even family some friends or they were even family some you know kind of relationship that I you know kind of relationship that I you know kind of relationship that I mean I I was related to half of north of mean I I was related to half of north of mean I I was related to half of north of England I had no idea how we were England I had no idea how we were England I had no idea how we were related you know everybody was some related you know everybody was some related you know everybody was some relative because people have lived there relative because people have lived there relative because people have lived there for Generations together this very small for Generations together this very small for Generations together this very small area and that turned things around so area and that turned things around so area and that turned things around so just remember you might have and that's just remember you might have and that's just remember you might have and that's kind of suddenly talked to me there's kind of suddenly talked to me there's kind of suddenly talked to me there's always a reason why somebody's doing always a reason why somebody's doing always a reason why somebody's doing something a lot of the times they're something a lot of the times they're something a lot of the times they're really unhappy with themselves sometimes really unhappy with themselves sometimes really unhappy with themselves sometimes there's someone else going on their there's someone else going on their there's someone else going on their lives sometimes they just don't know lives sometimes they just don't know lives sometimes they just don't know Benny better and I shouldn't take it Benny better and I shouldn't take it Benny better and I shouldn't take it personally because I don't have a personally because I don't have a personally because I don't have a personal connection with half these personal connection with half these personal connection with half these people who are up there saying that they people who are up there saying that they people who are up there saying that they want this not to happen to me want this not to happen to me want this not to happen to me well thank you for the kindness and well thank you for the kindness and well thank you for the kindness and empathy you still carrying your heart I empathy you still carrying your heart I empathy you still carrying your heart I can see it through all the you must have can see it through all the you must have can see it through all the you must have gone through in the in the recent couple gone through in the in the recent couple gone through in the in the recent couple of years it's really inspiring to see

of years it's really inspiring to see of years it's really inspiring to see that and thank you for everything you've that and thank you for everything you've that and thank you for everything you've done for the work you've written and for done for the work you've written and for done for the work you've written and for the work you continue to write and to do the work you continue to write and to do the work you continue to write and to do it this seems like a really really it this seems like a really really it this seems like a really really difficult time for human civilization on difficult time for human civilization on difficult time for human civilization on a topic that you're a world expert in so a topic that you're a world expert in so a topic that you're a world expert in so um don't mess it up no I know about that um don't mess it up no I know about that um don't mess it up no I know about that do everybody have that let's just let's do everybody have that let's just let's do everybody have that let's just let's just keep it together right yeah just keep it together right yeah just keep it together right yeah exactly let's keep it together your exactly let's keep it together your exactly let's keep it together your words have a lot of power right now so words have a lot of power right now so words have a lot of power right now so it's a it's a really really tricky time it's a it's a really really tricky time it's a it's a really really tricky time so thank you so much given how valuable so thank you so much given how valuable so thank you so much given how valuable your time is to sit down with me today your time is to sit down with me today your time is to sit down with me today it was on honor it's a privilege and a it was on honor it's a privilege and a it was on honor it's a privilege and a pleasure to talk to you as well no thank pleasure to talk to you as well no thank pleasure to talk to you as well no thank you you you thanks for listening to this thanks for listening to this thanks for listening to this conversation with Fiona Hill to support conversation with Fiona Hill to support conversation with Fiona Hill to support this podcast please check out our this podcast please check out our this podcast please check out our sponsors in the description and now let sponsors in the description and now let sponsors in the description and now let me leave you some words from John me leave you some words from John me leave you some words from John Steinbeck Steinbeck Steinbeck power does not corrupt fear corrupts power does not corrupt fear corrupts power does not corrupt fear corrupts perhaps the fear of the loss of power perhaps the fear of the loss of power perhaps the fear of the loss of power thank you for listening I hope to see thank you for listening I hope to see thank you for listening I hope to see you next time