Nick Lane: Origin of Life, Evolution, Aliens, Biology, and Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #318

well the source of energy at the origin well the source of energy at the origin of life is the reaction between carbon of life is the reaction between carbon of life is the reaction between carbon dioxide and hydrogen and amazingly most dioxide and hydrogen and amazingly most dioxide and hydrogen and amazingly most of these reactions are of these reactions are of these reactions are exergonic which is to say they release exergonic which is to say they release exergonic which is to say they release energy this if you have hydrogen and co2 energy this if you have hydrogen and co2 energy this if you have hydrogen and co2 and you put them together in a falcon and you put them together in a falcon and you put them together in a falcon tube and you warm it up to say 50 tube and you warm it up to say 50 tube and you warm it up to say 50 degrees centigrade and you put in a degrees centigrade and you put in a degrees centigrade and you put in a couple of catalysts and you shake it couple of catalysts and you shake it couple of catalysts and you shake it nothing's gonna happen but nothing's gonna happen but nothing's gonna happen but thermodynamically thermodynamically thermodynamically that is less stable two gases hydrogen that is less stable two gases hydrogen that is less stable two gases hydrogen and co2 is less stable than cells what and co2 is less stable than cells what and co2 is less stable than cells what should happen is you get cells coming should happen is you get cells coming should happen is you get cells coming out why doesn't that happen is because out why doesn't that happen is because out why doesn't that happen is because of the kinetic barriers it's because of the kinetic barriers it's because of the kinetic barriers it's because that's where you need the spark the following is a conversation with the following is a conversation with nick lane a biochemist at university nick lane a biochemist at university nick lane a biochemist at university college london and author of some of my college london and author of some of my college london and author of some of my favorite books on biology science and favorite books on biology science and favorite books on biology science and life life life ever written ever written ever written including his two most recent titled including his two most recent titled including his two most recent titled transformer the deep chemistry of life transformer the deep chemistry of life transformer the deep chemistry of life and death and death and death and and and the vital question the vital question the vital question why is life the way it is why is life the way it is why is life the way it is this is the lex friedman podcast to this is the lex friedman podcast to this is the lex friedman podcast to support it please check out our sponsors support it please check out our sponsors support it please check out our sponsors in the description and now dear friends in the description and now dear friends in the description and now dear friends here's nick here's nick here's nick lane lane lane let's start with perhaps the most let's start with perhaps the most let's start with perhaps the most mysterious the most interesting question mysterious the most interesting question mysterious the most interesting question that uh we that uh we that uh we little humans can ask of ourselves how little humans can ask of ourselves how little humans can ask of ourselves how did life originate on earth you could did life originate on earth you could did life originate on earth you could you could ask anybody working on the you could ask anybody working on the you could ask anybody working on the subject subject subject and you'll get a different answer from and you'll get a different answer from and you'll get a different answer from all of them they will be pretty all of them they will be pretty all of them they will be pretty passionately held passionately held passionately held opinions and their opinions grounded in

opinions and their opinions grounded in opinions and their opinions grounded in science science science um um um but they're still really at this point but they're still really at this point but they're still really at this point their opinions because there's so much their opinions because there's so much their opinions because there's so much stuff to know stuff to know stuff to know that all we can ever do is get a kind of that all we can ever do is get a kind of that all we can ever do is get a kind of a small slice of it and it's the context a small slice of it and it's the context a small slice of it and it's the context which matters so i can give you my which matters so i can give you my which matters so i can give you my answer answer answer my answer is my answer is my answer is from a biologist's point of view from a biologist's point of view from a biologist's point of view that has been missing from the equation that has been missing from the equation that has been missing from the equation over decades over decades over decades which is well what does life do on earth which is well what does life do on earth which is well what does life do on earth what what why is it this way why is it what what why is it this way why is it what what why is it this way why is it made of cells why is it made of carbon made of cells why is it made of carbon made of cells why is it made of carbon why does it why is it powered by why does it why is it powered by why does it why is it powered by electrical charges on membranes there's electrical charges on membranes there's electrical charges on membranes there's all these interesting questions about all these interesting questions about all these interesting questions about cells cells cells that if you then look to see well is that if you then look to see well is that if you then look to see well is there an environment on earth on the there an environment on earth on the there an environment on earth on the early earth four billion years ago it early earth four billion years ago it early earth four billion years ago it kind of matches the requirements of kind of matches the requirements of kind of matches the requirements of cells well there is one there's a very cells well there is one there's a very cells well there is one there's a very obvious one it's basically created by obvious one it's basically created by obvious one it's basically created by whenever whenever whenever you have a wet rocky planet you get you have a wet rocky planet you get you have a wet rocky planet you get these hydrothermal vents these hydrothermal vents these hydrothermal vents which generate which generate which generate hydrogen gas in bucket loads and hydrogen gas in bucket loads and hydrogen gas in bucket loads and electrical charges on kind of cell-like electrical charges on kind of cell-like electrical charges on kind of cell-like pores pores pores that can can drive the kind of chemistry that can can drive the kind of chemistry that can can drive the kind of chemistry that life does so it seems so beautiful that life does so it seems so beautiful that life does so it seems so beautiful and so and so and so so obvious so obvious so obvious um that um that um that i've spent the last 10 years or more i've spent the last 10 years or more i've spent the last 10 years or more trying to do experiments it turns out to trying to do experiments it turns out to trying to do experiments it turns out to be difficult of course everything's more be difficult of course everything's more be difficult of course everything's more difficult than you ever thought it was difficult than you ever thought it was difficult than you ever thought it was going to be going to be going to be but it looks i would say more true but it looks i would say more true but it looks i would say more true rather than less true over that 10-year rather than less true over that 10-year rather than less true over that 10-year period i think i have to take a step period i think i have to take a step period i think i have to take a step back every now and then and think hang back every now and then and think hang back every now and then and think hang on a minute where's this going uh i'm on a minute where's this going uh i'm on a minute where's this going uh i'm happy it's going in a sensible direction

happy it's going in a sensible direction happy it's going in a sensible direction and i think then you have these other and i think then you have these other and i think then you have these other interesting dilemmas i mean i'm often interesting dilemmas i mean i'm often interesting dilemmas i mean i'm often accused of being accused of being accused of being too focused on life on earth too focused on life on earth too focused on life on earth too kind of too kind of too kind of narrow-minded and inward looking you narrow-minded and inward looking you narrow-minded and inward looking you might say i'm think i'm talking about might say i'm think i'm talking about might say i'm think i'm talking about carbon i'm talking about cells and maybe carbon i'm talking about cells and maybe carbon i'm talking about cells and maybe you or plenty of people can say to me ah you or plenty of people can say to me ah you or plenty of people can say to me ah yeah but life can be anything i have no yeah but life can be anything i have no yeah but life can be anything i have no imagination and maybe they're right but imagination and maybe they're right but imagination and maybe they're right but unless we can say why life here is this unless we can say why life here is this unless we can say why life here is this way and if those reasons are fundamental way and if those reasons are fundamental way and if those reasons are fundamental reasons or if they're just trivial reasons or if they're just trivial reasons or if they're just trivial reasons then we can't answer that reasons then we can't answer that reasons then we can't answer that question um so so i think they're question um so so i think they're question um so so i think they're fundamental reasons and i think we need fundamental reasons and i think we need fundamental reasons and i think we need to worry about them yeah there might be to worry about them yeah there might be to worry about them yeah there might be some deep truth to the puzzle here on some deep truth to the puzzle here on some deep truth to the puzzle here on earth that will resonate with earth that will resonate with earth that will resonate with other puzzles elsewhere that will other puzzles elsewhere that will other puzzles elsewhere that will solving this particular puzzle will give solving this particular puzzle will give solving this particular puzzle will give us that deeper truth so what to this us that deeper truth so what to this us that deeper truth so what to this puzzle you said puzzle you said puzzle you said vents vents vents hydrogen hydrogen hydrogen wet so wet so wet so chemically what is the potion here how chemically what is the potion here how chemically what is the potion here how important is oxygen you wrote a book important is oxygen you wrote a book important is oxygen you wrote a book about this yeah and i actually just came about this yeah and i actually just came about this yeah and i actually just came straight here from a conference where i straight here from a conference where i straight here from a conference where i was sharing a session on whether oxygen was sharing a session on whether oxygen was sharing a session on whether oxygen matters or not in the history of life of matters or not in the history of life of matters or not in the history of life of course it matters course it matters course it matters but it matters most of the origin of but it matters most of the origin of but it matters most of the origin of life to be not there um life to be not there um life to be not there um as i see it we have this as i see it we have this as i see it we have this i mean life is made of carbon basically i mean life is made of carbon basically i mean life is made of carbon basically primarily um organic molecules with primarily um organic molecules with primarily um organic molecules with carbon-carbon bonds carbon-carbon bonds carbon-carbon bonds and and and the building block the lego brick that

the building block the lego brick that the building block the lego brick that we take out of the air or take out of we take out of the air or take out of we take out of the air or take out of the oceans is carbon dioxide and to turn the oceans is carbon dioxide and to turn the oceans is carbon dioxide and to turn carbon dioxide into organic molecules we carbon dioxide into organic molecules we carbon dioxide into organic molecules we need to strap on hydrogen and so we need need to strap on hydrogen and so we need need to strap on hydrogen and so we need an and this is basically what life an and this is basically what life an and this is basically what life is doing it's hydrogenating carbon is doing it's hydrogenating carbon is doing it's hydrogenating carbon dioxide it's taking the hydrogen the dioxide it's taking the hydrogen the dioxide it's taking the hydrogen the bubbles out of the earth in these bubbles out of the earth in these bubbles out of the earth in these hydrothermal vents and it sticks it on hydrothermal vents and it sticks it on hydrothermal vents and it sticks it on co2 co2 co2 um and it's kind of really as simple as um and it's kind of really as simple as um and it's kind of really as simple as that um and actually thermodynamically that um and actually thermodynamically that um and actually thermodynamically there's the the thing that i find most there's the the thing that i find most there's the the thing that i find most troubling troubling troubling is that you if you do these experiments is that you if you do these experiments is that you if you do these experiments in the lab the molecules you get are in the lab the molecules you get are in the lab the molecules you get are exactly the molecules that we see at the exactly the molecules that we see at the exactly the molecules that we see at the heart of biochemistry in the heart of heart of biochemistry in the heart of heart of biochemistry in the heart of life is there something to be said about life is there something to be said about life is there something to be said about the earliest origins of that the earliest origins of that the earliest origins of that little uh little uh little uh potion potion potion that chemical process that chemical process that chemical process what really is the spark there what really is the spark there what really is the spark there there isn't there isn't there isn't a spark um a spark um a spark um there is a continuous chemical reaction there is a continuous chemical reaction there is a continuous chemical reaction and there is kind of a spark but it's a and there is kind of a spark but it's a and there is kind of a spark but it's a continuous electrical charge which helps continuous electrical charge which helps continuous electrical charge which helps drive that reaction so literally spark drive that reaction so literally spark drive that reaction so literally spark uh well the charge at least but yes i uh well the charge at least but yes i uh well the charge at least but yes i mean a spark in that sense is um mean a spark in that sense is um mean a spark in that sense is um we're we tend to think of in terms of we're we tend to think of in terms of we're we tend to think of in terms of frankenstein we tend to think in terms frankenstein we tend to think in terms frankenstein we tend to think in terms of electricity and one one moment you of electricity and one one moment you of electricity and one one moment you zap something and it comes alive and zap something and it comes alive and zap something and it comes alive and what does that really mean you've it's what does that really mean you've it's what does that really mean you've it's come alive and now what's sustaining it come alive and now what's sustaining it come alive and now what's sustaining it well well well we are sustained by oxygen by this we are sustained by oxygen by this we are sustained by oxygen by this continuous chemical reaction continuous chemical reaction continuous chemical reaction and if you put a plastic bag on your

and if you put a plastic bag on your and if you put a plastic bag on your head then you've got a minute or head then you've got a minute or head then you've got a minute or something before it's all over so some something before it's all over so some something before it's all over so some way of being able to leverage a source way of being able to leverage a source way of being able to leverage a source of energy well the source of energy at of energy well the source of energy at of energy well the source of energy at the origin of life is the reaction the origin of life is the reaction the origin of life is the reaction between carbon dioxide and hydrogen and between carbon dioxide and hydrogen and between carbon dioxide and hydrogen and amazingly most of these reactions are amazingly most of these reactions are amazingly most of these reactions are exergonic which is to say they release exergonic which is to say they release exergonic which is to say they release energy this if you have hydrogen and co2 energy this if you have hydrogen and co2 energy this if you have hydrogen and co2 and you put them together in a falcon and you put them together in a falcon and you put them together in a falcon tube and you warm it up to say 50 tube and you warm it up to say 50 tube and you warm it up to say 50 degrees centigrade and you put in a degrees centigrade and you put in a degrees centigrade and you put in a couple of catalysts and you shake it couple of catalysts and you shake it couple of catalysts and you shake it nothing's gonna happen but nothing's gonna happen but nothing's gonna happen but thermodynamically thermodynamically thermodynamically that is less stable two gases hydrogen that is less stable two gases hydrogen that is less stable two gases hydrogen and co2 is less stable than cells what and co2 is less stable than cells what and co2 is less stable than cells what should happen is you get cells coming should happen is you get cells coming should happen is you get cells coming out um out um out um so why doesn't that happen is because of so why doesn't that happen is because of so why doesn't that happen is because of the kinetic barriers is because that's the kinetic barriers is because that's the kinetic barriers is because that's where you need the spark where you need the spark where you need the spark is it possible that life originated is it possible that life originated is it possible that life originated multiple times on earth multiple times on earth multiple times on earth the way you describe it you make it the way you describe it you make it the way you describe it you make it sound so easy sound so easy sound so easy there's a long distance to go from the there's a long distance to go from the there's a long distance to go from the first bits of prebiotic chemistry to say first bits of prebiotic chemistry to say first bits of prebiotic chemistry to say molecular machines like ribosomes is molecular machines like ribosomes is molecular machines like ribosomes is that the first that the first that the first thing that you would say is life thing that you would say is life thing that you would say is life like if i introduce you to the two of like if i introduce you to the two of like if i introduce you to the two of you at a party you would say that's a you at a party you would say that's a you at a party you would say that's a living thing living thing living thing i would say as soon as we introduce i would say as soon as we introduce i would say as soon as we introduce genes information genes information genes information into systems that are growing anyway so into systems that are growing anyway so into systems that are growing anyway so i i would i would talk about growing i i would i would talk about growing i i would i would talk about growing protocells as soon as we in protocells as soon as we in protocells as soon as we in introduce even random bits of introduce even random bits of introduce even random bits of information into information into information into into there into there into there i'm thinking about rna molecules for

i'm thinking about rna molecules for i'm thinking about rna molecules for example it doesn't have to have any example it doesn't have to have any example it doesn't have to have any information it can be completely random information it can be completely random information it can be completely random sequence but if it's introduced into a sequence but if it's introduced into a sequence but if it's introduced into a system which is in any case growing and system which is in any case growing and system which is in any case growing and doubling itself and reproducing itself doubling itself and reproducing itself doubling itself and reproducing itself then any changes in that sequence that then any changes in that sequence that then any changes in that sequence that allow it to do so better or worse are allow it to do so better or worse are allow it to do so better or worse are now selected by perfectly normal natural now selected by perfectly normal natural now selected by perfectly normal natural selection but the system so that's when selection but the system so that's when selection but the system so that's when it becomes alive to my mind that's it becomes alive to my mind that's it becomes alive to my mind that's encompassed into like um encompassed into like um encompassed into like um an object an object an object that that that keeps information and involves that keeps information and involves that keeps information and involves that information over time or changes that information over time or changes that information over time or changes that information over time yes exactly in information over time yes exactly in information over time yes exactly in response to that so it's always part of response to that so it's always part of response to that so it's always part of a cell system from the very beginning so a cell system from the very beginning so a cell system from the very beginning so is your sense that it started only once is your sense that it started only once is your sense that it started only once because it's difficult or is it possibly because it's difficult or is it possibly because it's difficult or is it possibly started in multiple locations on earth started in multiple locations on earth started in multiple locations on earth it's possible to start on multiple it's possible to start on multiple it's possible to start on multiple occasions occasions occasions um um um there's two provisos to that one of them there's two provisos to that one of them there's two provisos to that one of them is is is oxygen oxygen oxygen makes it makes it makes it impossible really for life to start so impossible really for life to start so impossible really for life to start so as soon as we've got oxygen in the as soon as we've got oxygen in the as soon as we've got oxygen in the atmosphere then life isn't going to keep atmosphere then life isn't going to keep atmosphere then life isn't going to keep starting over so i often get asked by starting over so i often get asked by starting over so i often get asked by people you know why can't we have life people you know why can't we have life people you know why can't we have life starting if it's so easy why can't i starting if it's so easy why can't i starting if it's so easy why can't i start in these vents now and the answer start in these vents now and the answer start in these vents now and the answer is you've got if you want hydrogen to is you've got if you want hydrogen to is you've got if you want hydrogen to react with co2 and there's oxygen there react with co2 and there's oxygen there react with co2 and there's oxygen there hydrogen reacts with oxygen instead it's hydrogen reacts with oxygen instead it's hydrogen reacts with oxygen instead it's just you know you you get an explosive just you know you you get an explosive just you know you you get an explosive reaction that way it's rocket fuel so reaction that way it's rocket fuel so reaction that way it's rocket fuel so it's never going to happen but the other it's never going to happen but the other it's never going to happen but the other for the origin of life earlier than that for the origin of life earlier than that for the origin of life earlier than that all we know all we know all we know is that there's a single common ancestor is that there's a single common ancestor is that there's a single common ancestor for all of life there could have been for all of life there could have been for all of life there could have been multiple origins and they all just multiple origins and they all just multiple origins and they all just disappeared um disappeared um disappeared um but there's a very interesting deep

but there's a very interesting deep but there's a very interesting deep split in life between bacteria and what split in life between bacteria and what split in life between bacteria and what are called archaea which look just the are called archaea which look just the are called archaea which look just the same as bacteria same as bacteria same as bacteria and they're not quite as diverse but and they're not quite as diverse but and they're not quite as diverse but nearly and they are very different in nearly and they are very different in nearly and they are very different in their biochemistry and so any their biochemistry and so any their biochemistry and so any explanation for the origin of life has explanation for the origin of life has explanation for the origin of life has to account as well for why they're so to account as well for why they're so to account as well for why they're so different and yet so similar and that different and yet so similar and that different and yet so similar and that makes me think that life probably did makes me think that life probably did makes me think that life probably did arise only once arise only once arise only once can you describe the difference that's can you describe the difference that's can you describe the difference that's interesting there interesting there interesting there how they're similar how they're how they're similar how they're how they're similar how they're different well they're different in uh different well they're different in uh different well they're different in uh in their membranes primarily they're in their membranes primarily they're in their membranes primarily they're different in things like dna replication different in things like dna replication different in things like dna replication they use completely different enzymes they use completely different enzymes they use completely different enzymes and the genes behind it for replicating and the genes behind it for replicating and the genes behind it for replicating dna so they both have membranes both dna so they both have membranes both dna so they both have membranes both have dna replication yes the process of have dna replication yes the process of have dna replication yes the process of that is different they have d they both that is different they have d they both that is different they have d they both have dna the genetic code is identical have dna the genetic code is identical have dna the genetic code is identical in them both the way in which it's uh in them both the way in which it's uh in them both the way in which it's uh transcribed into rna into the copy of a transcribed into rna into the copy of a transcribed into rna into the copy of a gene and the way that that's then gene and the way that that's then gene and the way that that's then translated into a protein that's all translated into a protein that's all translated into a protein that's all basically the same in both these groups basically the same in both these groups basically the same in both these groups so they clearly share so they clearly share so they clearly share a common ancestor it's just that they're a common ancestor it's just that they're a common ancestor it's just that they're different in fundamental ways as well different in fundamental ways as well different in fundamental ways as well and if you think about what kind of and if you think about what kind of and if you think about what kind of processes could drive that divergence processes could drive that divergence processes could drive that divergence very early on very early on very early on um i can think about it in terms of um i can think about it in terms of um i can think about it in terms of membranes in terms of the electrical membranes in terms of the electrical membranes in terms of the electrical charges on membranes and it's that that charges on membranes and it's that that charges on membranes and it's that that makes me think that uh there's probably makes me think that uh there's probably makes me think that uh there's probably probably many unsuccessful attempts at probably many unsuccessful attempts at probably many unsuccessful attempts at only one really successful attempt only one really successful attempt only one really successful attempt can you explain why that divergence can you explain why that divergence can you explain why that divergence makes you think there's one answer uh makes you think there's one answer uh makes you think there's one answer uh one common ancestor

one common ancestor one common ancestor okay can you describe that intuition i'm okay can you describe that intuition i'm okay can you describe that intuition i'm a little bit unclear about why the diver a little bit unclear about why the diver a little bit unclear about why the diver like the leap from the divergence like the leap from the divergence like the leap from the divergence means there's one means there's one means there's one do you mean like the divergence do you mean like the divergence do you mean like the divergence indicates that there was a big invention indicates that there was a big invention indicates that there was a big invention at that time yes at that time yes at that time yes if it was if if you've got if it was if if you've got if it was if if you've got as i imagine it you have a common as i imagine it you have a common as i imagine it you have a common ancestor living in a hydrothermal vent ancestor living in a hydrothermal vent ancestor living in a hydrothermal vent let's say there are you know millions of let's say there are you know millions of let's say there are you know millions of vents and millions of potential common vents and millions of potential common vents and millions of potential common ancestors living in all of those vents ancestors living in all of those vents ancestors living in all of those vents but only one of them makes it out first but only one of them makes it out first but only one of them makes it out first then you could imagine that that cell is then you could imagine that that cell is then you could imagine that that cell is then going to kind of take over the then going to kind of take over the then going to kind of take over the world and and wipe out everything else world and and wipe out everything else world and and wipe out everything else and so you what you would see would be a and so you what you would see would be a and so you what you would see would be a single common ancestor for all of life single common ancestor for all of life single common ancestor for all of life but with you know lots lots of different but with you know lots lots of different but with you know lots lots of different vent systems all kind of vent systems all kind of vent systems all kind of vying to create the first life forms you vying to create the first life forms you vying to create the first life forms you might say so this thing is a cell a might say so this thing is a cell a might say so this thing is a cell a single cell well single cell well single cell well we're always talking about populations we're always talking about populations we're always talking about populations of cells but yes of cells but yes of cells but yes these are cell organisms but the these are cell organisms but the these are cell organisms but the fundamental fundamental fundamental life form is a single cell life form is a single cell life form is a single cell right so like right so like right so like or or or so they're always together so they're always together so they're always together but they're alone together but they're alone together but they're alone together yeah there's a machinery in each one yeah there's a machinery in each one yeah there's a machinery in each one individual component that if left by individual component that if left by individual component that if left by itself would still itself would still itself would still work yes yes yes it's the unit of work yes yes yes it's the unit of work yes yes yes it's the unit of selection is a single cell but selection selection is a single cell but selection selection is a single cell but selection operates over generations and changes operates over generations and changes operates over generations and changes over generations in populations of cells over generations in populations of cells over generations in populations of cells so it would be impossible to say that a so it would be impossible to say that a so it would be impossible to say that a cell is the unit of selection in the cell is the unit of selection in the cell is the unit of selection in the sense that sense that sense that you unless you have a population you you unless you have a population you you unless you have a population you can't evolve you can't change

can't evolve you can't change can't evolve you can't change right but there was one right but there was one right but there was one chuck norris chuck norris chuck norris it's an american reference yeah uh cell it's an american reference yeah uh cell it's an american reference yeah uh cell that made it out of the vents that made it out of the vents that made it out of the vents right or right or right or like the first one so imagine then like the first one so imagine then like the first one so imagine then there's one cell gets out and it takes there's one cell gets out and it takes there's one cell gets out and it takes over the world it gets out in the water over the world it gets out in the water over the world it gets out in the water it's like floating around we're deep in it's like floating around we're deep in it's like floating around we're deep in the ocean somewhere yeah but actually the ocean somewhere yeah but actually the ocean somewhere yeah but actually two cells got out two cells got out two cells got out um and they appear to have got out from um and they appear to have got out from um and they appear to have got out from the same the same the same vent vent vent because they both share the same code because they both share the same code because they both share the same code and everything else so unless all the and everything else so unless all the and everything else so unless all the you know we've got a million different you know we've got a million different you know we've got a million different common ancestors in in all these common ancestors in in all these common ancestors in in all these different vents so either they all have different vents so either they all have different vents so either they all have the same code and two cells the same code and two cells the same code and two cells spontaneously merge from different spontaneously merge from different spontaneously merge from different places or places or places or two two different cells fundamentally two two different cells fundamentally two two different cells fundamentally different cells came from the same place different cells came from the same place different cells came from the same place so either way what are the constraints so either way what are the constraints so either way what are the constraints that say not just one came out or not that say not just one came out or not that say not just one came out or not half a million came out but two half a million came out but two half a million came out but two came out that's kind of a bit strange uh came out that's kind of a bit strange uh came out that's kind of a bit strange uh so how did they come out well they come so how did they come out well they come so how did they come out well they come out because out because out because what you're doing inside event is you're what you're doing inside event is you're what you're doing inside event is you're relying on the electrical charges down relying on the electrical charges down relying on the electrical charges down there to power this reaction between there to power this reaction between there to power this reaction between hydrogen and co2 to make yourself grow hydrogen and co2 to make yourself grow hydrogen and co2 to make yourself grow and when you leave the vent you've got and when you leave the vent you've got and when you leave the vent you've got to do that yourself you've got to power to do that yourself you've got to power to do that yourself you've got to power up your own membrane and so the question up your own membrane and so the question up your own membrane and so the question is well how do you power up your own is well how do you power up your own is well how do you power up your own membrane membrane membrane and the answer is well you need to pump and the answer is well you need to pump and the answer is well you need to pump you need to pump ions to give an you need to pump ions to give an you need to pump ions to give an electrical charge on the membrane so electrical charge on the membrane so electrical charge on the membrane so what do the pumps look like well the what do the pumps look like well the what do the pumps look like well the pumps look different in these two groups pumps look different in these two groups pumps look different in these two groups it's as if they they both emerge from a it's as if they they both emerge from a it's as if they they both emerge from a common ancestor as soon as you've got

common ancestor as soon as you've got common ancestor as soon as you've got that ancestor things move very quickly that ancestor things move very quickly that ancestor things move very quickly um and um and um and and divergently why does the dna and divergently why does the dna and divergently why does the dna replication look different well it's replication look different well it's replication look different well it's joined to the membrane the membranes are joined to the membrane the membranes are joined to the membrane the membranes are different the dna replication is different the dna replication is different the dna replication is different because it's joined to a different because it's joined to a different because it's joined to a different kind of membrane so there's different kind of membrane so there's different kind of membrane so there's interesting you know this this is detail interesting you know this this is detail interesting you know this this is detail you may say but it's also fundamental you may say but it's also fundamental you may say but it's also fundamental because it's about the two big divergent because it's about the two big divergent because it's about the two big divergent groups of life on earth that seem to groups of life on earth that seem to groups of life on earth that seem to have diverged really early on it all have diverged really early on it all have diverged really early on it all started from started from started from one organism one organism one organism and then and then and then that organs just start replicating the that organs just start replicating the that organs just start replicating the heck out of itself heck out of itself heck out of itself with some mutation of the dna so like with some mutation of the dna so like with some mutation of the dna so like there's some um there's a competition there's some um there's a competition there's some um there's a competition through the process of evolution they're through the process of evolution they're through the process of evolution they're not like trying to beat each other up not like trying to beat each other up not like trying to beat each other up they're just they're just they're just they're just trying to live they just they're just trying to live they just they're just trying to live they just replicate us replicate us replicate us yeah well you know let's not minimize yeah well you know let's not minimize yeah well you know let's not minimize their yeah there's no sense of trying to survive there's no sense of trying to survive they're replicating i mean there's no they're replicating i mean there's no they're replicating i mean there's no sense in which they're trying to do sense in which they're trying to do sense in which they're trying to do anything they're just a kind of an anything they're just a kind of an anything they're just a kind of an outgrowth of the earth you might say of outgrowth of the earth you might say of outgrowth of the earth you might say of course the aliens would describe us course the aliens would describe us course the aliens would describe us humans in that same way humans in that same way humans in that same way they might be right primitive life it's they might be right primitive life it's they might be right primitive life it's just it's just ants that are hairless just it's just ants that are hairless just it's just ants that are hairless mostly hairless overgrown ants overgrown mostly hairless overgrown ants overgrown mostly hairless overgrown ants overgrown ants okay um what do you think about the ants okay um what do you think about the ants okay um what do you think about the idea of idea of idea of panspermia that panspermia that panspermia that the theory that life did not originate the theory that life did not originate the theory that life did not originate on earth and was planted here from outer on earth and was planted here from outer on earth and was planted here from outer space space space or pseudo panspermia which is like the

or pseudo panspermia which is like the or pseudo panspermia which is like the basic ingredients the magic that you basic ingredients the magic that you basic ingredients the magic that you mentioned was planted here from mentioned was planted here from mentioned was planted here from elsewhere in space elsewhere in space elsewhere in space i don't find them helpful that's not to i don't find them helpful that's not to i don't find them helpful that's not to say they're wrong say they're wrong say they're wrong uh uh uh so so pseudotranspermia the idea that so so pseudotranspermia the idea that so so pseudotranspermia the idea that you know the chemicals the amino acids you know the chemicals the amino acids you know the chemicals the amino acids the nucleotides are being delivered from the nucleotides are being delivered from the nucleotides are being delivered from space well we know that happens it's space well we know that happens it's space well we know that happens it's unequivocal they're delivered on unequivocal they're delivered on unequivocal they're delivered on meteorites comets and so on meteorites comets and so on meteorites comets and so on um um um so what do they do next that's to me the so what do they do next that's to me the so what do they do next that's to me the question and well what they do is they question and well what they do is they question and well what they do is they stock a soup like presumably they land stock a soup like presumably they land stock a soup like presumably they land in a pond or in an ocean or wherever in a pond or in an ocean or wherever in a pond or in an ocean or wherever they land they land they land and then you end up with a you know best and then you end up with a you know best and then you end up with a you know best possible case scenario is you end up possible case scenario is you end up possible case scenario is you end up with a super nucleotides and amino acids with a super nucleotides and amino acids with a super nucleotides and amino acids and then you have to say so now what and then you have to say so now what and then you have to say so now what happens and the answer is oh well they happens and the answer is oh well they happens and the answer is oh well they have to go have to go have to go become alive so how did they do that you become alive so how did they do that you become alive so how did they do that you may as well say then a miracle happened may as well say then a miracle happened may as well say then a miracle happened i don't believe in soup i don't believe in soup i don't believe in soup i i think what we have in a vent is a i i think what we have in a vent is a i i think what we have in a vent is a continuous conversion a continuous continuous conversion a continuous continuous conversion a continuous growth a continuous reaction continuous growth a continuous reaction continuous growth a continuous reaction continuous converting a flow of molecules into more converting a flow of molecules into more converting a flow of molecules into more of yourself you might say even if it's a of yourself you might say even if it's a of yourself you might say even if it's a small bit so you've you've got small bit so you've you've got small bit so you've you've got you've got a kind of continuous you've got a kind of continuous you've got a kind of continuous self-organization and growth from the self-organization and growth from the self-organization and growth from the very beginning you never have that in a very beginning you never have that in a very beginning you never have that in a soup soup soup isn't isn't isn't the entire universe and living organisms the entire universe and living organisms the entire universe and living organisms in the universe isn't it just uh in the universe isn't it just uh in the universe isn't it just uh soup all the way down isn't it also no soup all the way down isn't it also no soup all the way down isn't it also no no i mean soup almost by definition no i mean soup almost by definition no i mean soup almost by definition doesn't have a structure doesn't have a structure doesn't have a structure but soup is a collection of ingredients but soup is a collection of ingredients but soup is a collection of ingredients that are like randomly that are like randomly that are like randomly yeah they're not i mean yeah they're not i mean yeah they're not i mean we have chemistry going on here we have we have chemistry going on here we have we have chemistry going on here we have metadata forming which are which are you

metadata forming which are which are you metadata forming which are which are you know effective oil water interactions know effective oil water interactions know effective oil water interactions okay so it feels like there's a okay so it feels like there's a okay so it feels like there's a direction to a process like a director direction to a process like a director direction to a process like a director there are there are there are there are directions to processes yeah there are directions to processes yeah there are directions to processes yeah and if you are com if you're starting and if you are com if you're starting and if you are com if you're starting with co2 and you've got two reactive with co2 and you've got two reactive with co2 and you've got two reactive fluids being brought together and they fluids being brought together and they fluids being brought together and they they react what are they going to make they react what are they going to make they react what are they going to make well they they make carboxylic acids well they they make carboxylic acids well they they make carboxylic acids which include the fatty acids that make which include the fatty acids that make which include the fatty acids that make up the cell membranes and and they form up the cell membranes and and they form up the cell membranes and and they form directly into bilayer membranes they directly into bilayer membranes they directly into bilayer membranes they form like soap bubbles it's spontaneous form like soap bubbles it's spontaneous form like soap bubbles it's spontaneous organization organization organization caused by the nature of the molecules caused by the nature of the molecules caused by the nature of the molecules and and those things are capable of and and those things are capable of and and those things are capable of growing and are capable in effect of growing and are capable in effect of growing and are capable in effect of being selected even before there are being selected even before there are being selected even before there are genes we have this so we have a lot of genes we have this so we have a lot of genes we have this so we have a lot of order and that order is coming from order and that order is coming from order and that order is coming from thermodynamics and the thermodynamics is thermodynamics and the thermodynamics is thermodynamics and the thermodynamics is always about increasing the entropy of always about increasing the entropy of always about increasing the entropy of the universe but if you have the universe but if you have the universe but if you have if you have oil and water and they're if you have oil and water and they're if you have oil and water and they're separating you're increasing the entropy separating you're increasing the entropy separating you're increasing the entropy of the universe even though you've got of the universe even though you've got of the universe even though you've got some order which is the soap and the some order which is the soap and the some order which is the soap and the water are not not miscible now water are not not miscible now water are not not miscible now to come back to your first to come back to your first to come back to your first question about um panspermia properly question about um panspermia properly question about um panspermia properly um um um that just pushes the question somewhere that just pushes the question somewhere that just pushes the question somewhere else that just even if it's true maybe else that just even if it's true maybe else that just even if it's true maybe life did start on earth by panspermia life did start on earth by panspermia life did start on earth by panspermia but but so what are the principles but but so what are the principles but but so what are the principles that govern the emergence of life on any that govern the emergence of life on any that govern the emergence of life on any planet we it's an assumption that life planet we it's an assumption that life planet we it's an assumption that life started here and it's an assumption that started here and it's an assumption that started here and it's an assumption that it you know it started in a hydrothermal it you know it started in a hydrothermal it you know it started in a hydrothermal vent or it started in a terrestrial vent or it started in a terrestrial vent or it started in a terrestrial geothermal system the question is can we geothermal system the question is can we geothermal system the question is can we work out a testable sequence of events work out a testable sequence of events work out a testable sequence of events that would lead from one to the other that would lead from one to the other that would lead from one to the other one and then test it and see if there's

one and then test it and see if there's one and then test it and see if there's any truth in it or not with panspermia any truth in it or not with panspermia any truth in it or not with panspermia you can't do any of that but the the you can't do any of that but the the you can't do any of that but the the fundamental question of past sperm is do fundamental question of past sperm is do fundamental question of past sperm is do we have we have we have the machine here on earth to build life the machine here on earth to build life the machine here on earth to build life is the vents enough is the vents enough is the vents enough is is is oxygen and hydrogen oxygen and hydrogen oxygen and hydrogen and whatever the heck else we want and and whatever the heck else we want and and whatever the heck else we want and some source of energy and heat is that some source of energy and heat is that some source of energy and heat is that enough to build life enough to build life enough to build life or or or well that's well that's well that's of course you would say that as a human of course you would say that as a human of course you would say that as a human uh but there could be aliens right now uh but there could be aliens right now uh but there could be aliens right now chuckling at that idea maybe you need chuckling at that idea maybe you need chuckling at that idea maybe you need some special um some special um some special um special sauce special sauce special sauce special elsewhere sauce your senses special elsewhere sauce your senses special elsewhere sauce your senses we have everything i mean this is we have everything i mean this is we have everything i mean this is precisely the the question so i i like precisely the the question so i i like precisely the the question so i i like to when when i'm talking in schools i to when when i'm talking in schools i to when when i'm talking in schools i like to start out with the idea of we like to start out with the idea of we like to start out with the idea of we make we can make a time machine make we can make a time machine make we can make a time machine we go back four billion years and we go we go back four billion years and we go we go back four billion years and we go to these environments that people talk to these environments that people talk to these environments that people talk about we go to a deep sea hydrothermal about we go to a deep sea hydrothermal about we go to a deep sea hydrothermal event we go to a kind of yellowstone event we go to a kind of yellowstone event we go to a kind of yellowstone park type park type park type place environment place environment place environment and we find some slime that looks like and we find some slime that looks like and we find some slime that looks like we can we can test it it's made of we can we can test it it's made of we can we can test it it's made of organic molecules organic molecules organic molecules it's got a structure which is not it's got a structure which is not it's got a structure which is not obviously cells but you know it's is is obviously cells but you know it's is is obviously cells but you know it's is is this a stepping stone on the way to life this a stepping stone on the way to life this a stepping stone on the way to life or not yeah how do we know or not yeah how do we know or not yeah how do we know unless we've got an intellectual unless we've got an intellectual unless we've got an intellectual framework that says this is this is a framework that says this is this is a framework that says this is this is a stepping stone and that's not us that stepping stone and that's not us that stepping stone and that's not us that you know we'd never know we wouldn't you know we'd never know we wouldn't you know we'd never know we wouldn't know which environment to go to what to know which environment to go to what to know which environment to go to what to look for how to say this so all we can look for how to say this so all we can look for how to say this so all we can ever hope for because we're never going ever hope for because we're never going ever hope for because we're never going to build that time machine is to have an

to build that time machine is to have an to build that time machine is to have an intellectual framework that can explain intellectual framework that can explain intellectual framework that can explain step by step experiment by experiment step by step experiment by experiment step by step experiment by experiment how we go from a sterile inorganic how we go from a sterile inorganic how we go from a sterile inorganic planet to living cells as we know them planet to living cells as we know them planet to living cells as we know them and in that framework every time you and in that framework every time you and in that framework every time you have a choice it could be this way or it have a choice it could be this way or it have a choice it could be this way or it could be that way or you know there's could be that way or you know there's could be that way or you know there's lots of lots of lots of possible forks down that road um possible forks down that road um possible forks down that road um did it have to be that way could it have did it have to be that way could it have did it have to be that way could it have been the other way and would that have been the other way and would that have been the other way and would that have given you life with very different given you life with very different given you life with very different properties properties properties um and so if you if you come up with a um and so if you if you come up with a um and so if you if you come up with a you know it's a long hypothesis because you know it's a long hypothesis because you know it's a long hypothesis because as i say we're going from really simple as i say we're going from really simple as i say we're going from really simple prebiotic chemistry all the way through prebiotic chemistry all the way through prebiotic chemistry all the way through to genes and molecular machines that's a to genes and molecular machines that's a to genes and molecular machines that's a long long pathway and nobody in the long long pathway and nobody in the long long pathway and nobody in the field would agree on the order in which field would agree on the order in which field would agree on the order in which these things happened which is not a bad these things happened which is not a bad these things happened which is not a bad thing because it means that you have to thing because it means that you have to thing because it means that you have to go out and do some experiments and try go out and do some experiments and try go out and do some experiments and try and demonstrate that it's possible or and demonstrate that it's possible or and demonstrate that it's possible or not possible it's so not possible it's so not possible it's so freaking amazing freaking amazing freaking amazing that it happened though that it happened though that it happened though it feels it feels it feels like there's a direction to the thing like there's a direction to the thing like there's a direction to the thing can you try to can you try to can you try to answer answer answer from a framework perspective of what is from a framework perspective of what is from a framework perspective of what is life life life so you said there's some order so you said there's some order so you said there's some order and yet and yet and yet there's complexity there's complexity there's complexity so it's not perfectly ordered it's not so it's not perfectly ordered it's not so it's not perfectly ordered it's not boring there's still some fun in it and boring there's still some fun in it and boring there's still some fun in it and it also feels like the processes have a it also feels like the processes have a it also feels like the processes have a direction direction direction through the selection mechanism they through the selection mechanism they through the selection mechanism they seem to be seem to be seem to be building something always better building something always better building something always better always improving i mean maybe it's i

always improving i mean maybe it's i always improving i mean maybe it's i mean that's a perception that's our mean that's a perception that's our mean that's a perception that's our romanticization of things are always romanticization of things are always romanticization of things are always better better better things are getting better we'd like to things are getting better we'd like to things are getting better we'd like to believe that i mean you think about the believe that i mean you think about the believe that i mean you think about the world from the point of view of bacteria world from the point of view of bacteria world from the point of view of bacteria and bacteria are the first things to and bacteria are the first things to and bacteria are the first things to emerge from whatever environment they emerge from whatever environment they emerge from whatever environment they came from and they dominated the planet came from and they dominated the planet came from and they dominated the planet very very quickly and they haven't very very quickly and they haven't very very quickly and they haven't really changed four billion years later really changed four billion years later really changed four billion years later they look exactly the same so about four they look exactly the same so about four they look exactly the same so about four billion years ago billion years ago billion years ago bacteria started to bacteria started to bacteria started to to really run the show to really run the show to really run the show and then and then and then nothing happened for a while nothing nothing happened for a while nothing nothing happened for a while nothing happened for two billion years yep then happened for two billion years yep then happened for two billion years yep then after two billion years we see another after two billion years we see another after two billion years we see another single event origin if you like of of single event origin if you like of of single event origin if you like of of our own type of cell the eukaryotic cell our own type of cell the eukaryotic cell our own type of cell the eukaryotic cell so cells with a nucleus and loss of so cells with a nucleus and loss of so cells with a nucleus and loss of stuff going on inside stuff going on inside stuff going on inside another singular origin it only happened another singular origin it only happened another singular origin it only happened once in the history of life on earth once in the history of life on earth once in the history of life on earth maybe it happened multiple times and maybe it happened multiple times and maybe it happened multiple times and there's no evidence everything just there's no evidence everything just there's no evidence everything just disappeared but we have to at least disappeared but we have to at least disappeared but we have to at least take it seriously take it seriously take it seriously that there's that there's that there's something that stops bacteria from something that stops bacteria from something that stops bacteria from becoming more complex because they becoming more complex because they becoming more complex because they didn't you know that's a fact that they didn't you know that's a fact that they didn't you know that's a fact that they emerged emerged emerged four billion years ago and something four billion years ago and something four billion years ago and something happened two billion years ago but the happened two billion years ago but the happened two billion years ago but the bacteria themselves didn't change they bacteria themselves didn't change they bacteria themselves didn't change they remain bacterial so there is no remain bacterial so there is no remain bacterial so there is no trajectory necessary trajectory towards trajectory necessary trajectory towards trajectory necessary trajectory towards great complexity in human beings at the great complexity in human beings at the great complexity in human beings at the end of it it's very easy to imagine that end of it it's very easy to imagine that end of it it's very easy to imagine that without photosynthesis arising or without photosynthesis arising or without photosynthesis arising or without eukaryotes arising that a planet without eukaryotes arising that a planet without eukaryotes arising that a planet could be full of bacteria and nothing could be full of bacteria and nothing could be full of bacteria and nothing else else else we'll get to that because that's a we'll get to that because that's a we'll get to that because that's a brilliant invention and there's a few brilliant invention and there's a few brilliant invention and there's a few brilliant invention along the way but brilliant invention along the way but brilliant invention along the way but what is life what is life what is life if you were to show up on earth but to

if you were to show up on earth but to if you were to show up on earth but to take that time machine and you said take that time machine and you said take that time machine and you said asking yourself the question is this a asking yourself the question is this a asking yourself the question is this a stepping stone towards life stepping stone towards life stepping stone towards life as you step along as you step along as you step along when you see the early bacteria when you see the early bacteria when you see the early bacteria how would you know it's life how would you know it's life how would you know it's life is and then this is really important is and then this is really important is and then this is really important question when you go to other planets question when you go to other planets question when you go to other planets and look for life and look for life and look for life like what like what like what uh what is the framework of telling the uh what is the framework of telling the uh what is the framework of telling the difference between a rock difference between a rock difference between a rock and a bacteria and a bacteria and a bacteria i mean the question's kind of both i mean the question's kind of both i mean the question's kind of both impossible to answer and trivial at the impossible to answer and trivial at the impossible to answer and trivial at the same time and i don't like to answer it same time and i don't like to answer it same time and i don't like to answer it because i don't think there is an answer because i don't think there is an answer because i don't think there is an answer i think we're trying to describe one i think we're trying to describe one i think we're trying to describe one question approaching me there's no question approaching me there's no question approaching me there's no answer so there's no i mean there's lots answer so there's no i mean there's lots answer so there's no i mean there's lots of there are at least 40 or 50 different of there are at least 40 or 50 different of there are at least 40 or 50 different definitions of life out there and most definitions of life out there and most definitions of life out there and most of them are of them are of them are well convincingly obviously bad in one well convincingly obviously bad in one well convincingly obviously bad in one way or another way or another way or another um uh i mean there's this phrase i i can um uh i mean there's this phrase i i can um uh i mean there's this phrase i i can never remember the exact words that never remember the exact words that never remember the exact words that people use but there's a nasa uh working people use but there's a nasa uh working people use but there's a nasa uh working definition of life uh which more or less definition of life uh which more or less definition of life uh which more or less has a a system which is capable of has a a system which is capable of has a a system which is capable of of a self-sustaining system capable of of a self-sustaining system capable of of a self-sustaining system capable of evolution or something along those lines evolution or something along those lines evolution or something along those lines and i immediately have a problem with and i immediately have a problem with and i immediately have a problem with the word self-sustaining because it's the word self-sustaining because it's the word self-sustaining because it's sustained by the environment and sustained by the environment and sustained by the environment and i know what they're getting at i know i know what they're getting at i know i know what they're getting at i know what they're trying to say but but i what they're trying to say but but i what they're trying to say but but i pick a hole in that and there's you know pick a hole in that and there's you know pick a hole in that and there's you know there's always wags who say but you know there's always wags who say but you know there's always wags who say but you know by that definition a rabbit is not alive by that definition a rabbit is not alive by that definition a rabbit is not alive only a pair of rabbits would be alive only a pair of rabbits would be alive only a pair of rabbits would be alive because a single rabbit is incapable of because a single rabbit is incapable of because a single rabbit is incapable of copying yourself copying yourself copying yourself there's all kinds of pedantic there's all kinds of pedantic there's all kinds of pedantic silly but also important objections to

silly but also important objections to silly but also important objections to any hypothesis the real question is what any hypothesis the real question is what any hypothesis the real question is what what is you know what is you know what is you know we can argue all day or people do argue we can argue all day or people do argue we can argue all day or people do argue all day about is is a virus alive or not all day about is is a virus alive or not all day about is is a virus alive or not and it depends on the content but most and it depends on the content but most and it depends on the content but most biologists could not agree about that so biologists could not agree about that so biologists could not agree about that so then what about a jumping gene a retro then what about a jumping gene a retro then what about a jumping gene a retro element or something like this even element or something like this even element or something like this even simpler than a virus but it's capable of simpler than a virus but it's capable of simpler than a virus but it's capable of converting its environment into a copy converting its environment into a copy converting its environment into a copy of itself of itself of itself and that's about as close it's not a and that's about as close it's not a and that's about as close it's not a definition but this is a kind of a definition but this is a kind of a definition but this is a kind of a description of life description of life description of life is that it's it's able to is that it's it's able to is that it's it's able to parasitize the environment and that goes parasitize the environment and that goes parasitize the environment and that goes for plants as well as animals and for plants as well as animals and for plants as well as animals and bacteria and viruses bacteria and viruses bacteria and viruses um to make a a relatively exact copy of um to make a a relatively exact copy of um to make a a relatively exact copy of themselves informationally exact copy of themselves informationally exact copy of themselves informationally exact copy of themselves by the way it doesn't really themselves by the way it doesn't really themselves by the way it doesn't really have to be have to be have to be a copy of itself right it just has to be a copy of itself right it just has to be a copy of itself right it just has to be you have to create something you have to create something you have to create something that's interesting that's interesting that's interesting the way evolution is the way evolution is the way evolution is so it is extremely powerful process of so it is extremely powerful process of so it is extremely powerful process of evolution which is basically make a copy evolution which is basically make a copy evolution which is basically make a copy yourself and sometimes mess up a little yourself and sometimes mess up a little yourself and sometimes mess up a little bit okay that seems to work really well bit okay that seems to work really well bit okay that seems to work really well i wonder if it's possible to i wonder if it's possible to i wonder if it's possible to mess up big time mess up big time as a mess up big time mess up big time as a mess up big time mess up big time as a standard that's the default uh it's standard that's the default uh it's standard that's the default uh it's called the hopeful monster and you know called the hopeful monster and you know called the hopeful monster and you know this doesn't work this doesn't work this doesn't work in principle it can actually it turns in principle it can actually it turns in principle it can actually it turns out i would say that this is due a out i would say that this is due a out i would say that this is due a re-emergence this is some amazing work re-emergence this is some amazing work re-emergence this is some amazing work from michael levine i don't know if you from michael levine i don't know if you from michael levine i don't know if you came across him but uh you if you came across him but uh you if you came across him but uh you if you haven't interviewed him you should haven't interviewed him you should haven't interviewed him you should interview him yeah uh yeah

interview him yeah uh yeah interview him yeah uh yeah about yeah i'm about yeah i'm about yeah i'm talking to him in a few days oh talking to him in a few days oh talking to him in a few days oh fantastic i mentioned off yes there's fantastic i mentioned off yes there's fantastic i mentioned off yes there's some people that anja if i may mention some people that anja if i may mention some people that anja if i may mention uh andre kapathi is a friend who's uh andre kapathi is a friend who's uh andre kapathi is a friend who's really admired in the ai community said really admired in the ai community said really admired in the ai community said you absolutely must talk you absolutely must talk you absolutely must talk to to michael and to nick this is so to to michael and to nick this is so to to michael and to nick this is so this of course i'm a huge fan of yours this of course i'm a huge fan of yours this of course i'm a huge fan of yours so i'm really fortunate that we can so i'm really fortunate that we can so i'm really fortunate that we can actually make this happen anyway actually make this happen anyway actually make this happen anyway well michael levin is doing amazing work well michael levin is doing amazing work well michael levin is doing amazing work uh basically about the way in which uh basically about the way in which uh basically about the way in which electrical fields control development um electrical fields control development um electrical fields control development um and he's done some work with planarian and he's done some work with planarian and he's done some work with planarian worms so flatworms well he'll tell you worms so flatworms well he'll tell you worms so flatworms well he'll tell you all about this so i won't say any more all about this so i won't say any more all about this so i won't say any more than the minimum but basically you can than the minimum but basically you can than the minimum but basically you can cut their head off and they'll redevelop cut their head off and they'll redevelop cut their head off and they'll redevelop a different a different a different a new head but the head that they a new head but the head that they a new head but the head that they develop depends if you knock out just develop depends if you knock out just develop depends if you knock out just one one one um um um one one iron pump in a membrane so you one one iron pump in a membrane so you one one iron pump in a membrane so you change the electrical circuitry just a change the electrical circuitry just a change the electrical circuitry just a little bit you can come up with a little bit you can come up with a little bit you can come up with a completely different head it can be a completely different head it can be a completely different head it can be a head which is similar to those that head which is similar to those that head which is similar to those that diverged 150 million years ago or it can diverged 150 million years ago or it can diverged 150 million years ago or it can be a head which no one's ever seen be a head which no one's ever seen be a head which no one's ever seen before a different kind of of head um before a different kind of of head um before a different kind of of head um now that is really you might say a now that is really you might say a now that is really you might say a hopeful monster this is a kind of leap hopeful monster this is a kind of leap hopeful monster this is a kind of leap into a different direction the only into a different direction the only into a different direction the only question for natural selection is does question for natural selection is does question for natural selection is does it work is the change itself it work is the change itself it work is the change itself feasible as a single change and the feasible as a single change and the feasible as a single change and the answer is yes it's just a small change answer is yes it's just a small change answer is yes it's just a small change to a single gene and the second thing is to a single gene and the second thing is to a single gene and the second thing is it gives rise to a completely different it gives rise to a completely different it gives rise to a completely different morphology does it work and if it works morphology does it work and if it works morphology does it work and if it works that can easily be that can easily be that can easily be a shift

a shift a shift it but for it to be a speciation for it it but for it to be a speciation for it it but for it to be a speciation for it to to to to continue for it to to give rise to a to continue for it to to give rise to a to continue for it to to give rise to a different morphology over time different morphology over time different morphology over time then it has to be perpetuated so that then it has to be perpetuated so that then it has to be perpetuated so that shift that change in the shift that change in the shift that change in the in in that one gene in in that one gene in in that one gene has to work well enough that it is has to work well enough that it is has to work well enough that it is selected and it goes on and copied selected and it goes on and copied selected and it goes on and copied enough times to where you can really enough times to where you can really enough times to where you can really test it and so the likelihood it would test it and so the likelihood it would test it and so the likelihood it would be lost but but there will be some be lost but but there will be some be lost but but there will be some occasions where it survives and yes the occasions where it survives and yes the occasions where it survives and yes the idea that we can have sudden fairly idea that we can have sudden fairly idea that we can have sudden fairly abrupt changes in evolution i think it's abrupt changes in evolution i think it's abrupt changes in evolution i think it's time for a rebirth what about this idea time for a rebirth what about this idea time for a rebirth what about this idea that that that kind of trying to kind of trying to kind of trying to mathematize mathematize mathematize a definition of life and saying how many a definition of life and saying how many a definition of life and saying how many steps steps steps the shortest amount of steps it takes to the shortest amount of steps it takes to the shortest amount of steps it takes to build the thing almost like an build the thing almost like an build the thing almost like an engineering view of it engineering view of it engineering view of it i like that view i like that view i like that view um because i think that in a sense um because i think that in a sense um because i think that in a sense that's not very far away from what it that's not very far away from what it that's not very far away from what it what what what a hypothesis needs to do what what what a hypothesis needs to do what what what a hypothesis needs to do to be a testable hypothesis for the to be a testable hypothesis for the to be a testable hypothesis for the origin of life you need to spell out origin of life you need to spell out origin of life you need to spell out here's here's each step here's here's each step here's here's each step and here's the experiment to do for each and here's the experiment to do for each and here's the experiment to do for each step step step the idea that we can do it in the lab the idea that we can do it in the lab the idea that we can do it in the lab some people say oh well i've you know some people say oh well i've you know some people say oh well i've you know we'll have created life within five we'll have created life within five we'll have created life within five years but you know ask them what they years but you know ask them what they years but you know ask them what they mean by life mean by life mean by life um um um we have a planet four billion years ago we have a planet four billion years ago we have a planet four billion years ago with these vent systems across the with these vent systems across the with these vent systems across the entire surface of the planet and we have entire surface of the planet and we have entire surface of the planet and we have millions of years if we wanted i have a millions of years if we wanted i have a millions of years if we wanted i have a feeling that we're not talking about feeling that we're not talking about feeling that we're not talking about millions of years i have a feeling we're millions of years i have a feeling we're millions of years i have a feeling we're talking about talking about talking about maybe millions of nanoseconds or maybe millions of nanoseconds or maybe millions of nanoseconds or picoseconds we're talking about picoseconds we're talking about picoseconds we're talking about chemistry which is happening quickly

chemistry which is happening quickly chemistry which is happening quickly but we still need to constrain those but we still need to constrain those but we still need to constrain those steps but we've got a you know a planet steps but we've got a you know a planet steps but we've got a you know a planet uh doing similar chemistry you asked uh doing similar chemistry you asked uh doing similar chemistry you asked about a trajectory the trajectory is the about a trajectory the trajectory is the about a trajectory the trajectory is the planetary trajectory the planet has planetary trajectory the planet has planetary trajectory the planet has properties it's basically it's got a lot properties it's basically it's got a lot properties it's basically it's got a lot of iron at the center of it it's got a of iron at the center of it it's got a of iron at the center of it it's got a lot of electrons at the center of it lot of electrons at the center of it lot of electrons at the center of it it's more oxidized on the outside partly it's more oxidized on the outside partly it's more oxidized on the outside partly because of the sun and partly because because of the sun and partly because because of the sun and partly because the heat of volcanoes puts out oxidized the heat of volcanoes puts out oxidized the heat of volcanoes puts out oxidized gases so gases so gases so the planet is a battery it's a giant the planet is a battery it's a giant the planet is a battery it's a giant battery um battery um battery um and we have a flow of electrons going and we have a flow of electrons going and we have a flow of electrons going from inside to outside in these from inside to outside in these from inside to outside in these hydrothermal vents and that's the same hydrothermal vents and that's the same hydrothermal vents and that's the same topology that a cell has a cell is topology that a cell has a cell is topology that a cell has a cell is basically just a micro version of the basically just a micro version of the basically just a micro version of the planet um planet um planet um and it's uh and it's uh and it's uh there is a trajectory in all of that and there is a trajectory in all of that and there is a trajectory in all of that and there's an inevitability that certain there's an inevitability that certain there's an inevitability that certain types of chemical reaction are going to types of chemical reaction are going to types of chemical reaction are going to be favored over others and there's an be favored over others and there's an be favored over others and there's an inevitability in inevitability in inevitability in in what happens in water the chemistry in what happens in water the chemistry in what happens in water the chemistry that happens in water some that happens in water some that happens in water some some will be miscible with water and some will be miscible with water and some will be miscible with water and will form membranes and will form will form membranes and will form will form membranes and will form insoluble structures and you know insoluble structures and you know insoluble structures and you know water's a water's a water's a nobody really understands water very nobody really understands water very nobody really understands water very well well well um and it's uh it's another big question um and it's uh it's another big question um and it's uh it's another big question for experiments on the origin of life for experiments on the origin of life for experiments on the origin of life what do you put it in what do you put it in what do you put it in what kind of structure do we want to what kind of structure do we want to what kind of structure do we want to induce in this water because the last induce in this water because the last induce in this water because the last thing is likely to be is just kind of thing is likely to be is just kind of thing is likely to be is just kind of bulk bulk water bulk bulk water bulk bulk water how fundamental is water to life would how fundamental is water to life would how fundamental is water to life would you say i would say pretty fundamental you say i would say pretty fundamental you say i would say pretty fundamental um um um i wouldn't like to say it's impossible i wouldn't like to say it's impossible i wouldn't like to say it's impossible for life to start any other way for life to start any other way for life to start any other way but

but but water is everywhere water is everywhere water is everywhere water is extremely good at what it does water is extremely good at what it does water is extremely good at what it does and carbon carbon works in water and carbon carbon works in water and carbon carbon works in water especially well so those things and especially well so those things and especially well so those things and carbon is everywhere so those things carbon is everywhere so those things carbon is everywhere so those things together make me think probabilistically together make me think probabilistically together make me think probabilistically if we found a thousand life forms if we found a thousand life forms if we found a thousand life forms 995 of them would be carbon-based and 995 of them would be carbon-based and 995 of them would be carbon-based and living in water living in water living in water now the reverse question if you found a now the reverse question if you found a now the reverse question if you found a puddle of water elsewhere and some puddle of water elsewhere and some puddle of water elsewhere and some carbon carbon carbon no just a puddle of water is a pot of no just a puddle of water is a pot of no just a puddle of water is a pot of water water water a pretty damn good indication that life a pretty damn good indication that life a pretty damn good indication that life has has has is either exists here is either exists here is either exists here or or or has once existed here no has once existed here no has once existed here no so it doesn't work the other way so it doesn't work the other way so it doesn't work the other way i think you need a living planet i think you need a living planet i think you need a living planet you need a planet which is capable of you need a planet which is capable of you need a planet which is capable of turning over its surface it needs to be turning over its surface it needs to be turning over its surface it needs to be a planet with water it needs to be a planet with water it needs to be a planet with water it needs to be capable of of capable of of capable of of bringing those electrons from inside to bringing those electrons from inside to bringing those electrons from inside to the outside it needs to turn over its the outside it needs to turn over its the outside it needs to turn over its surface it needs to make that water work surface it needs to make that water work surface it needs to make that water work and turn it into hydrogen so i think you and turn it into hydrogen so i think you and turn it into hydrogen so i think you need a living planet but once you've got need a living planet but once you've got need a living planet but once you've got the living planet i think the rest of it the living planet i think the rest of it the living planet i think the rest of it uh is kind of thermodynamics all the way uh is kind of thermodynamics all the way uh is kind of thermodynamics all the way so if you were to run earth over a so if you were to run earth over a so if you were to run earth over a million times million times million times up to this point up to this point up to this point maybe beyond to the end let's run it to maybe beyond to the end let's run it to maybe beyond to the end let's run it to the end the end the end uh what is it uh how much variety is uh what is it uh how much variety is uh what is it uh how much variety is there you kind of spoke to this there you kind of spoke to this there you kind of spoke to this trajectory that the environment dictates trajectory that the environment dictates trajectory that the environment dictates like chemically i don't know in which like chemically i don't know in which like chemically i don't know in which other way other way other way um spiritually

um spiritually um spiritually like dictates kind of the direction of like dictates kind of the direction of like dictates kind of the direction of this giant machine that seems uh chaotic this giant machine that seems uh chaotic this giant machine that seems uh chaotic but it does seem to have order in the but it does seem to have order in the but it does seem to have order in the steps it's taking steps it's taking steps it's taking uh how much uh how much uh how much how often will life how often will life how often will life how often will bacteria emerge how often how often will bacteria emerge how often how often will bacteria emerge how often will something like humans emerge how will something like humans emerge how will something like humans emerge how much variety do you think there would be much variety do you think there would be much variety do you think there would be i think at the level of bacteria i think at the level of bacteria i think at the level of bacteria not much variety i think we would get not much variety i think we would get not much variety i think we would get that's how many times you say you want that's how many times you say you want that's how many times you say you want to run it a million times to run it a million times to run it a million times um i would say at least a few hundred um i would say at least a few hundred um i would say at least a few hundred thousand will get bacteria again oh wow thousand will get bacteria again oh wow thousand will get bacteria again oh wow um nice because i i think there's some um nice because i i think there's some um nice because i i think there's some level of inevitability that a wet rocky level of inevitability that a wet rocky level of inevitability that a wet rocky planet will give rise through planet will give rise through planet will give rise through through the same processes through the same processes through the same processes to something very close i i think this to something very close i i think this to something very close i i think this is not something i'd have thought a few is not something i'd have thought a few is not something i'd have thought a few years ago but we're working with a phd years ago but we're working with a phd years ago but we're working with a phd student of mine stuart harrison he's student of mine stuart harrison he's student of mine stuart harrison he's been thinking about the genetic code and been thinking about the genetic code and been thinking about the genetic code and we've just been publishing on that um we've just been publishing on that um we've just been publishing on that um there are patterns that you can discern there are patterns that you can discern there are patterns that you can discern in the co or he has discerned in the in the co or he has discerned in the in the co or he has discerned in the code code code that if you if you think about them in that if you if you think about them in that if you if you think about them in terms of we start with co2 and hydrogen terms of we start with co2 and hydrogen terms of we start with co2 and hydrogen and these are the first steps of and these are the first steps of and these are the first steps of biochemistry you come up with a code biochemistry you come up with a code biochemistry you come up with a code which is very similar to the code that which is very similar to the code that which is very similar to the code that we see we see we see so it wouldn't surprise me any longer if so it wouldn't surprise me any longer if so it wouldn't surprise me any longer if we found life on mars and it had a we found life on mars and it had a we found life on mars and it had a genetic code that was not very different genetic code that was not very different genetic code that was not very different to the genetic code that we have here to the genetic code that we have here to the genetic code that we have here without it just being transferred across without it just being transferred across without it just being transferred across some inevitability about the whole of some inevitability about the whole of some inevitability about the whole of the beginnings of life in my view that's the beginnings of life in my view that's the beginnings of life in my view that's really promising because if the basic really promising because if the basic really promising because if the basic chemistry is tightly linked to the chemistry is tightly linked to the chemistry is tightly linked to the genetic code

genetic code genetic code that means that means that means we can interact with other life if it we can interact with other life if it we can interact with other life if it exists exists exists potentially potentially potentially that's that's really exciting if that's that's that's really exciting if that's that's that's really exciting if that's if that's the case okay but then if that's the case okay but then if that's the case okay but then bacteria we've got then we've got bacteria we've got then we've got bacteria we've got then we've got bacteria yeah um bacteria yeah um bacteria yeah um how easy is photosynthesis how easy is photosynthesis how easy is photosynthesis much harder i would say much harder i would say much harder i would say let's actually go there let's let's go let's actually go there let's let's go let's actually go there let's let's go through the inventions yeah um what is through the inventions yeah um what is through the inventions yeah um what is photosynthesis photosynthesis photosynthesis and why is it hard well there are and why is it hard well there are and why is it hard well there are different different different forms forms forms i mean basically you're taking hydrogen i mean basically you're taking hydrogen i mean basically you're taking hydrogen and you're sticking it onto co2 and it's and you're sticking it onto co2 and it's and you're sticking it onto co2 and it's powered by the sun the question is where powered by the sun the question is where powered by the sun the question is where are you taking the hydrogen from are you taking the hydrogen from are you taking the hydrogen from and in photosynthesis that we know in and in photosynthesis that we know in and in photosynthesis that we know in plants it's coming from water so you're plants it's coming from water so you're plants it's coming from water so you're using the power of the sun to split using the power of the sun to split using the power of the sun to split water take out the hydrogen stick it water take out the hydrogen stick it water take out the hydrogen stick it onto co2 and the oxygen is a waste onto co2 and the oxygen is a waste onto co2 and the oxygen is a waste product and you just throw it out throw product and you just throw it out throw product and you just throw it out throw it away so this is you know the single it away so this is you know the single it away so this is you know the single greatest planetary pollution event in greatest planetary pollution event in greatest planetary pollution event in the whole history of of the earth the the whole history of of the earth the the whole history of of the earth the pollutant being oxygen yes pollutant being oxygen yes pollutant being oxygen yes yeah it also made possible animals you yeah it also made possible animals you yeah it also made possible animals you can't have large active animals without can't have large active animals without can't have large active animals without an oxygenated atmosphere at least not an oxygenated atmosphere at least not an oxygenated atmosphere at least not not in the sense that we know on earth not in the sense that we know on earth not in the sense that we know on earth so that's a really big invention in this so that's a really big invention in this so that's a really big invention in this huge intervention yes and it happened huge intervention yes and it happened huge intervention yes and it happened once there's a few things that happen once there's a few things that happen once there's a few things that happen once on earth and you know you're always once on earth and you know you're always once on earth and you know you're always stuck with this problem is it once it stuck with this problem is it once it stuck with this problem is it once it happened did it become so good so happened did it become so good so happened did it become so good so quickly that it precluded the the same quickly that it precluded the the same quickly that it precluded the the same thing happening ever again or are there thing happening ever again or are there thing happening ever again or are there other reasons and we really have to look other reasons and we really have to look other reasons and we really have to look at each one in turn and think at each one in turn and think at each one in turn and think what's what's what's why does it only happen once in this why does it only happen once in this why does it only happen once in this case case case it's really difficult

it's really difficult it's really difficult to split water it requires a lot of to split water it requires a lot of to split water it requires a lot of power and that power you're effectively power and that power you're effectively power and that power you're effectively separating charge across a membrane and separating charge across a membrane and separating charge across a membrane and the way in which you do it if it doesn't the way in which you do it if it doesn't the way in which you do it if it doesn't all rush back and and kind of cause an all rush back and and kind of cause an all rush back and and kind of cause an explosion right at the site requires explosion right at the site requires explosion right at the site requires really careful wiring um and that wiring really careful wiring um and that wiring really careful wiring um and that wiring it can't be easy to get it right because it can't be easy to get it right because it can't be easy to get it right because you know you know you know the plants that we see around us they the plants that we see around us they the plants that we see around us they have chloroplasts those chloroplasts have chloroplasts those chloroplasts have chloroplasts those chloroplasts were cyanobacterial ones those were cyanobacterial ones those were cyanobacterial ones those cyanobacteria are the only group of cyanobacteria are the only group of cyanobacteria are the only group of bacteria that can do that type of bacteria that can do that type of bacteria that can do that type of photosynthesis so there's plenty of photosynthesis so there's plenty of photosynthesis so there's plenty of opportunity so not even many bacteria so opportunity so not even many bacteria so opportunity so not even many bacteria so who who invented photosynthesis that the who who invented photosynthesis that the who who invented photosynthesis that the cyanobacteria or their ancestors and cyanobacteria or their ancestors and cyanobacteria or their ancestors and there's not many um no other bacteria there's not many um no other bacteria there's not many um no other bacteria can do what's called oxygenic can do what's called oxygenic can do what's called oxygenic photosynthesis lots of other bacteria photosynthesis lots of other bacteria photosynthesis lots of other bacteria can split i mean you can take your can split i mean you can take your can split i mean you can take your hydrogen from somewhere else you can hydrogen from somewhere else you can hydrogen from somewhere else you can take it from hydrogen sulfide bubbling take it from hydrogen sulfide bubbling take it from hydrogen sulfide bubbling out of a hydrothermal vent grab your two out of a hydrothermal vent grab your two out of a hydrothermal vent grab your two hydrogens the sulfur is the waste now hydrogens the sulfur is the waste now hydrogens the sulfur is the waste now um you can do it from iron you can take um you can do it from iron you can take um you can do it from iron you can take electrons so the early oceans were electrons so the early oceans were electrons so the early oceans were probably full of iron you can take an probably full of iron you can take an probably full of iron you can take an electron from ferrous ion so iron two electron from ferrous ion so iron two electron from ferrous ion so iron two plus and make it iron three plus which plus and make it iron three plus which plus and make it iron three plus which now precipitates as rust now precipitates as rust now precipitates as rust uh and you take a a proton from the uh and you take a a proton from the uh and you take a a proton from the acidic early ocean stick it there now acidic early ocean stick it there now acidic early ocean stick it there now you've got a hydrogen atom stick it onto you've got a hydrogen atom stick it onto you've got a hydrogen atom stick it onto co2 you've just done the trick the co2 you've just done the trick the co2 you've just done the trick the trouble is trouble is trouble is you bury yourself in rusty iron and with you bury yourself in rusty iron and with you bury yourself in rusty iron and with sulfur you can bury yourself in sulfur sulfur you can bury yourself in sulfur sulfur you can bury yourself in sulfur one of the reasons oxygenic one of the reasons oxygenic one of the reasons oxygenic photosynthesis is so much better is the photosynthesis is so much better is the photosynthesis is so much better is the waste product is oxygen which just waste product is oxygen which just waste product is oxygen which just bubbles away bubbles away bubbles away that seems like extremely unlikely and

that seems like extremely unlikely and that seems like extremely unlikely and it's extremely essential for the it's extremely essential for the it's extremely essential for the evolution of complex organisms evolution of complex organisms evolution of complex organisms because of all the oxygen because of all the oxygen because of all the oxygen yeah and that didn't accumulate quickly yeah and that didn't accumulate quickly yeah and that didn't accumulate quickly either either either so it's converting so it's converting so it's converting what is it it's converting energy from what is it it's converting energy from what is it it's converting energy from the sun the sun the sun and the resource of water and the resource of water and the resource of water into into into the resource needed for animals the resource needed for animals the resource needed for animals both resources needed for animals we both resources needed for animals we both resources needed for animals we need to eat and we need to burn the food need to eat and we need to burn the food need to eat and we need to burn the food and the we're eating plants um which are and the we're eating plants um which are and the we're eating plants um which are getting their energy from the sun and getting their energy from the sun and getting their energy from the sun and we're burning it with their waste we're burning it with their waste we're burning it with their waste products which is the oxygen products which is the oxygen products which is the oxygen so there's a lot of kind of circularity so there's a lot of kind of circularity so there's a lot of kind of circularity in that but with with without an in that but with with without an in that but with with without an oxygenated planet you couldn't really oxygenated planet you couldn't really oxygenated planet you couldn't really have have have um um um predation predation predation you you you you don't you can have animals but you you don't you can have animals but you you don't you can have animals but you can't really have animals that go around can't really have animals that go around can't really have animals that go around and eat each other you can't have and eat each other you can't have and eat each other you can't have ecosystems as we know them well let's ecosystems as we know them well let's ecosystems as we know them well let's actually step back what about eukaryotic actually step back what about eukaryotic actually step back what about eukaryotic versus prokaryotic cells prokaryotes versus prokaryotic cells prokaryotes versus prokaryotic cells prokaryotes what how big what how big what how big what are each of those and how big of an what are each of those and how big of an what are each of those and how big of an invention is that invention is that invention is that i personally think that's the single i personally think that's the single i personally think that's the single biggest invention in the whole history biggest invention in the whole history biggest invention in the whole history of life exciting of life exciting of life exciting so what what are they can you explain so what what are they can you explain so what what are they can you explain yeah so so so i mentioned bacteria and yeah so so so i mentioned bacteria and yeah so so so i mentioned bacteria and archaea these are both prokaryotes archaea these are both prokaryotes archaea these are both prokaryotes um they're basically small cells that um they're basically small cells that um they're basically small cells that don't have a nucleus if you look at them don't have a nucleus if you look at them don't have a nucleus if you look at them under a microscope you don't see much under a microscope you don't see much under a microscope you don't see much going on if you look at them under a going on if you look at them under a going on if you look at them under a super resolution microscope then they're super resolution microscope then they're super resolution microscope then they're fantastically complex fantastically complex fantastically complex in terms of their molecular machinery in terms of their molecular machinery in terms of their molecular machinery they're amazing in terms of their they're amazing in terms of their they're amazing in terms of their morphological appearance under a morphological appearance under a morphological appearance under a microscope they're really small

microscope they're really small microscope they're really small and really simple the earliest life that and really simple the earliest life that and really simple the earliest life that we can physically see on the planet are we can physically see on the planet are we can physically see on the planet are stromatolites which are made by things stromatolites which are made by things stromatolites which are made by things like cyanobacteria and then they're like cyanobacteria and then they're like cyanobacteria and then they're large superstructures effectively large superstructures effectively large superstructures effectively biofilms plated on top of each other biofilms plated on top of each other biofilms plated on top of each other and and you end up with quite quite and and you end up with quite quite and and you end up with quite quite large structures that you can see in the large structures that you can see in the large structures that you can see in the fossil record fossil record fossil record but they they don't but they they don't but they they don't they never came up with animals they they never came up with animals they they never came up with animals they never came up with plants they they hear never came up with plants they they hear never came up with plants they they hear with multicellular things filamentous with multicellular things filamentous with multicellular things filamentous cyanobacteria for example they're just cyanobacteria for example they're just cyanobacteria for example they're just long you know strings of cells long you know strings of cells long you know strings of cells but the origin of the eukaryotic cell but the origin of the eukaryotic cell but the origin of the eukaryotic cell seems to have been what's called an seems to have been what's called an seems to have been what's called an endosymbiosis so one cell gets inside endosymbiosis so one cell gets inside endosymbiosis so one cell gets inside another cell another cell another cell and i think that that transformed the and i think that that transformed the and i think that that transformed the energetic possibilities of life so what energetic possibilities of life so what energetic possibilities of life so what we end up with we end up with we end up with is a kind of supercharged cell which can is a kind of supercharged cell which can is a kind of supercharged cell which can have a much larger have a much larger have a much larger nucleus with many more genes all nucleus with many more genes all nucleus with many more genes all supported supported supported if you think about you could think about if you think about you could think about if you think about you could think about it as a multi-bacterial power without it as a multi-bacterial power without it as a multi-bacterial power without the overhead so you've got you've got a the overhead so you've got you've got a the overhead so you've got you've got a cell and it's got bacterial living in it cell and it's got bacterial living in it cell and it's got bacterial living in it and those bacteria are providing it with and those bacteria are providing it with and those bacteria are providing it with the energy currency it needs but each the energy currency it needs but each the energy currency it needs but each bacterium has a genome of its own which bacterium has a genome of its own which bacterium has a genome of its own which costs a fair amount of energy to costs a fair amount of energy to costs a fair amount of energy to to to express to to kind of turn over to to express to to kind of turn over to to express to to kind of turn over and convert into proteins and so on and convert into proteins and so on and convert into proteins and so on what the mitochondria did which are what the mitochondria did which are what the mitochondria did which are these these these power packs in our own cells they were power packs in our own cells they were power packs in our own cells they were bacteria once and they threw away bacteria once and they threw away bacteria once and they threw away virtually all their genes they've only virtually all their genes they've only virtually all their genes they've only got a few left got a few left got a few left so mitochondria is like you said is the so mitochondria is like you said is the so mitochondria is like you said is the bacteria that got inside a cell bacteria that got inside a cell bacteria that got inside a cell and then throw away all this stuff it

and then throw away all this stuff it and then throw away all this stuff it doesn't need to survive inside the cell doesn't need to survive inside the cell doesn't need to survive inside the cell and then kept what so what we end up and then kept what so what we end up and then kept what so what we end up with so it kept always a handful of with so it kept always a handful of with so it kept always a handful of genes genes genes in our own case 37 genes in our own case 37 genes in our own case 37 genes um but there's a there's a few protists um but there's a there's a few protists um but there's a there's a few protists which are single cells things that have which are single cells things that have which are single cells things that have got as many as 70 or 80 genes so it's got as many as 70 or 80 genes so it's got as many as 70 or 80 genes so it's not always the same but it's always a not always the same but it's always a not always the same but it's always a small number small number small number um and um and um and you can think of it as a paired down you can think of it as a paired down you can think of it as a paired down power pack where the control unit is power pack where the control unit is power pack where the control unit is really being has been kind of paired really being has been kind of paired really being has been kind of paired down to almost nothing so you're putting down to almost nothing so you're putting down to almost nothing so you're putting out the same power but the the out the same power but the the out the same power but the the investment in in the overheads is really investment in in the overheads is really investment in in the overheads is really paired down that means that you can paired down that means that you can paired down that means that you can support a much larger nuclear genome so support a much larger nuclear genome so support a much larger nuclear genome so we've gone up in the number of genes but we've gone up in the number of genes but we've gone up in the number of genes but also the amount of power you have to also the amount of power you have to also the amount of power you have to convert those genes into proteins convert those genes into proteins convert those genes into proteins we've gone up about four-fold in the we've gone up about four-fold in the we've gone up about four-fold in the number of genes but in terms of the the number of genes but in terms of the the number of genes but in terms of the the size of genomes and your ability to to size of genomes and your ability to to size of genomes and your ability to to make the building blocks make the make the building blocks make the make the building blocks make the proteins we've gone up a hundred proteins we've gone up a hundred proteins we've gone up a hundred thousand fold or more so it's huge step thousand fold or more so it's huge step thousand fold or more so it's huge step change in the possibilities of evolution change in the possibilities of evolution change in the possibilities of evolution uh and it is it's interesting then that uh and it is it's interesting then that uh and it is it's interesting then that the only the only two occasions that the only the only two occasions that the only the only two occasions that complex life has arisen on earth plants complex life has arisen on earth plants complex life has arisen on earth plants and and and animals fungi you could say are complex animals fungi you could say are complex animals fungi you could say are complex as well but they don't form as well but they don't form as well but they don't form such complex morphology as plants and such complex morphology as plants and such complex morphology as plants and animals animals animals start with a single cell they start with start with a single cell they start with start with a single cell they start with an oocyte and a sperm fused together to an oocyte and a sperm fused together to an oocyte and a sperm fused together to make a zygote so we start development make a zygote so we start development make a zygote so we start development with a single cell and all the cells in with a single cell and all the cells in with a single cell and all the cells in the organism have identical dna the organism have identical dna the organism have identical dna and you switch off in the brain you and you switch off in the brain you and you switch off in the brain you switch off these genes and you switch on switch off these genes and you switch on switch off these genes and you switch on those genes and liver you switch off those genes and liver you switch off those genes and liver you switch off those and you switch on a different set

those and you switch on a different set those and you switch on a different set and the standard evolution explanation and the standard evolution explanation and the standard evolution explanation for that is that you've you you're for that is that you've you you're for that is that you've you you're restricting conflict you don't have a restricting conflict you don't have a restricting conflict you don't have a load of genetically different cells that load of genetically different cells that load of genetically different cells that are all fighting each other um and so it are all fighting each other um and so it are all fighting each other um and so it works the trouble with bacteria they works the trouble with bacteria they works the trouble with bacteria they form these biofilms and they're all form these biofilms and they're all form these biofilms and they're all genetically different and effectively genetically different and effectively genetically different and effectively they're incapable of that level of they're incapable of that level of they're incapable of that level of cooperation cooperation cooperation they would get in a fight okay so uh why is this such a difficult okay so uh why is this such a difficult invention invention invention of getting this bacteria inside and of getting this bacteria inside and of getting this bacteria inside and becoming an engine becoming an engine becoming an engine which the mitochondria is why was that which the mitochondria is why was that which the mitochondria is why was that why do you assign it such great why do you assign it such great why do you assign it such great importance is it great importance in importance is it great importance in importance is it great importance in terms of the difficulty of how it was to terms of the difficulty of how it was to terms of the difficulty of how it was to achieve a great importance in terms of achieve a great importance in terms of achieve a great importance in terms of the impact they had the impact they had the impact they had on life both uh it had a huge impact on on life both uh it had a huge impact on on life both uh it had a huge impact on life because life because life because if if that had not happened you can be if if that had not happened you can be if if that had not happened you can be certain that life on earth would be certain that life on earth would be certain that life on earth would be bacterial only and that took a really bacterial only and that took a really bacterial only and that took a really long time too it took two billion years long time too it took two billion years long time too it took two billion years yeah and it hasn't happened since to the yeah and it hasn't happened since to the yeah and it hasn't happened since to the best of our knowledge so it looks as if best of our knowledge so it looks as if best of our knowledge so it looks as if it's genuinely difficult and if you it's genuinely difficult and if you it's genuinely difficult and if you think about it then from from from just think about it then from from from just think about it then from from from just an informational perspective you you an informational perspective you you an informational perspective you you think bacteria think bacteria think bacteria have got have got have got they they structure their information they they structure their information they they structure their information differently so a bacterial cell has a differently so a bacterial cell has a differently so a bacterial cell has a small genome you might have 4 000 genes small genome you might have 4 000 genes small genome you might have 4 000 genes in it but a single e coli cell has in it but a single e coli cell has in it but a single e coli cell has access to about 30 000 genes access to about 30 000 genes access to about 30 000 genes potentially it's got a kind of meta potentially it's got a kind of meta potentially it's got a kind of meta genome where other e coli out there have genome where other e coli out there have genome where other e coli out there have got different gene sets and they can got different gene sets and they can got different gene sets and they can switch them around between themselves switch them around between themselves switch them around between themselves and so you can generate a huge amount of and so you can generate a huge amount of and so you can generate a huge amount of variation and you know they've got more

variation and you know they've got more variation and you know they've got more an e coli an e coli an e coli meta genome is larger than the human meta genome is larger than the human meta genome is larger than the human genome genome genome we own 20 000 genes or something we own 20 000 genes or something we own 20 000 genes or something so and they've had four billion years of so and they've had four billion years of so and they've had four billion years of evolution to work out what can i do and evolution to work out what can i do and evolution to work out what can i do and what can't i do with this metagenome and what can't i do with this metagenome and what can't i do with this metagenome and the answer is you're stuck you're still the answer is you're stuck you're still the answer is you're stuck you're still bacteria so they have explored bacteria so they have explored bacteria so they have explored genetic sequence space genetic sequence space genetic sequence space far more thoroughly than eukaryotes ever far more thoroughly than eukaryotes ever far more thoroughly than eukaryotes ever did because they've had twice as long at did because they've had twice as long at did because they've had twice as long at least and they've they've got much least and they've they've got much least and they've they've got much larger populations and they never they larger populations and they never they larger populations and they never they never got around this problem so why never got around this problem so why never got around this problem so why can't they it seems as if you can't can't they it seems as if you can't can't they it seems as if you can't solve it with information alone so solve it with information alone so solve it with information alone so what's the what's what's the problem the what's the what's what's the problem the what's the what's what's the problem the problem is structure problem is structure problem is structure if if if cells if the very first cells if if if cells if the very first cells if if if cells if the very first cells needed an electrical charge on their needed an electrical charge on their needed an electrical charge on their membrane to grow membrane to grow membrane to grow and in bacteria it's this is the outer and in bacteria it's this is the outer and in bacteria it's this is the outer membrane that surrounds the cell which membrane that surrounds the cell which membrane that surrounds the cell which is electrically charged is electrically charged is electrically charged you try and scale that up and you've got you try and scale that up and you've got you try and scale that up and you've got a fundamental design problem you've got a fundamental design problem you've got a fundamental design problem you've got an engineering problem and there are an engineering problem and there are an engineering problem and there are examples of it and what we see in all examples of it and what we see in all examples of it and what we see in all these cases is what's known as extreme these cases is what's known as extreme these cases is what's known as extreme polyploidy which is to say they have polyploidy which is to say they have polyploidy which is to say they have tens of thousands of copies of their tens of thousands of copies of their tens of thousands of copies of their complete genome complete genome complete genome which is you know energetically hugely which is you know energetically hugely which is you know energetically hugely expensive and you end up with a large bacteria with you end up with a large bacteria with no further development no further development no further development what you need is to incorporate these what you need is to incorporate these what you need is to incorporate these electrically charged power pack units electrically charged power pack units electrically charged power pack units inside with their control units intact inside with their control units intact inside with their control units intact and for them not to conflict so much and for them not to conflict so much and for them not to conflict so much with the host cell that it all goes with the host cell that it all goes with the host cell that it all goes wrong perhaps it goes wrong more often

wrong perhaps it goes wrong more often wrong perhaps it goes wrong more often than not and then than not and then than not and then you change the topology of the cell now you change the topology of the cell now you change the topology of the cell now you don't necessarily have any more dna you don't necessarily have any more dna you don't necessarily have any more dna than a giant bacterium with extreme than a giant bacterium with extreme than a giant bacterium with extreme polyploidy but what you've got is polyploidy but what you've got is polyploidy but what you've got is an asymmetry you now have a giant an asymmetry you now have a giant an asymmetry you now have a giant nuclear genome we're surrounded by lots nuclear genome we're surrounded by lots nuclear genome we're surrounded by lots of subsidiary energetic genomes that do of subsidiary energetic genomes that do of subsidiary energetic genomes that do do all the and they're the control units do all the and they're the control units do all the and they're the control units that are doing all the that are doing all the that are doing all the all the control of energy generation all the control of energy generation all the control of energy generation could this have been done gradually or could this have been done gradually or could this have been done gradually or does it have to be done does it have to be done does it have to be done the power pack has to be all intact and the power pack has to be all intact and the power pack has to be all intact and ready to go and uh it works i mean it's ready to go and uh it works i mean it's ready to go and uh it works i mean it's a kind of step changing the a kind of step changing the a kind of step changing the possibilities of evolution but it possibilities of evolution but it possibilities of evolution but it doesn't happen overnight it's going to doesn't happen overnight it's going to doesn't happen overnight it's going to still require multiple multiple still require multiple multiple still require multiple multiple generations so it could take you know it generations so it could take you know it generations so it could take you know it could take millions of years could take millions of years could take millions of years it could take shorter time this is it could take shorter time this is it could take shorter time this is another thing i would like to put the another thing i would like to put the another thing i would like to put the number of steps and try and work out number of steps and try and work out number of steps and try and work out what's required at each step and we are what's required at each step and we are what's required at each step and we are trying to do that with sex for example trying to do that with sex for example trying to do that with sex for example you can't have a very large genome you can't have a very large genome you can't have a very large genome unless you have sex at that point so unless you have sex at that point so unless you have sex at that point so what are the changes to go from what are the changes to go from what are the changes to go from bacterial recombination to eukaryotic bacterial recombination to eukaryotic bacterial recombination to eukaryotic recombination recombination recombination what what do you need to do why do we go what what do you need to do why do we go what what do you need to do why do we go from passing around bits of dna as if from passing around bits of dna as if from passing around bits of dna as if it's loose change to fusing cells it's loose change to fusing cells it's loose change to fusing cells together lining up the chromosomes together lining up the chromosomes together lining up the chromosomes recombining across the chromosomes and recombining across the chromosomes and recombining across the chromosomes and then going through two rounds of cell then going through two rounds of cell then going through two rounds of cell division to produce your gametes all division to produce your gametes all division to produce your gametes all eukaryotes do it that way eukaryotes do it that way eukaryotes do it that way so again you know so again you know so again you know why switch what are the drivers here so why switch what are the drivers here so why switch what are the drivers here so there's a lot of there's a lot of times there's a lot of there's a lot of times there's a lot of there's a lot of times a lot of evolution but as soon as you've a lot of evolution but as soon as you've a lot of evolution but as soon as you've got cells living inside another cell got cells living inside another cell got cells living inside another cell what you've got is a is a new design you what you've got is a is a new design you what you've got is a is a new design you you've got new potential that you didn't

you've got new potential that you didn't you've got new potential that you didn't have before so the have before so the have before so the cell living inside another cell that cell living inside another cell that cell living inside another cell that design design design allows for allows for allows for better storage of information better storage of information better storage of information better use of energy better use of energy better use of energy uh more delegation like a hierarchical uh more delegation like a hierarchical uh more delegation like a hierarchical control of the whole thing control of the whole thing control of the whole thing and then and then and then and then somehow that leads to ability and then somehow that leads to ability and then somehow that leads to ability to have multi-cell organisms i'm not to have multi-cell organisms i'm not to have multi-cell organisms i'm not sure that you have hierarchical control sure that you have hierarchical control sure that you have hierarchical control necessarily but you you've got a system necessarily but you you've got a system necessarily but you you've got a system where you can you can have a much larger where you can you can have a much larger where you can you can have a much larger information storage depot in the nucleus information storage depot in the nucleus information storage depot in the nucleus you can have a much larger genome and you can have a much larger genome and you can have a much larger genome and that allows multicellularity yes because that allows multicellularity yes because that allows multicellularity yes because um it allows you um it allows you um it allows you it's it's a funny thing you to to have a it's it's a funny thing you to to have a it's it's a funny thing you to to have a to have a an animal where i have you to have a an animal where i have you to have a an animal where i have you know 70 of my genes switched on in my know 70 of my genes switched on in my know 70 of my genes switched on in my brain and i have different 50 switched brain and i have different 50 switched brain and i have different 50 switched on in my liver or something you've got on in my liver or something you've got on in my liver or something you've got to have all those genes in the egg cell to have all those genes in the egg cell to have all those genes in the egg cell at the very beginning and you've got to at the very beginning and you've got to at the very beginning and you've got to have a a program of development which have a a program of development which have a a program of development which says okay you guys switch off those says okay you guys switch off those says okay you guys switch off those genes and switch on those genes and you genes and switch on those genes and you genes and switch on those genes and you guys you do that but all the genes are guys you do that but all the genes are guys you do that but all the genes are there at the beginning that means you've there at the beginning that means you've there at the beginning that means you've got to have a lot of genes in one cell got to have a lot of genes in one cell got to have a lot of genes in one cell and you've got to be able to maintain and you've got to be able to maintain and you've got to be able to maintain them and the problem with bacteria is them and the problem with bacteria is them and the problem with bacteria is they don't get close to having enough they don't get close to having enough they don't get close to having enough genes in one cell so they would if you genes in one cell so they would if you genes in one cell so they would if you were to try and make a multicellular were to try and make a multicellular were to try and make a multicellular organism from bacteria you'd bring organism from bacteria you'd bring organism from bacteria you'd bring different types of bacteria together and different types of bacteria together and different types of bacteria together and hope they'll cooperate and the reality hope they'll cooperate and the reality hope they'll cooperate and the reality is they don't that's really really tough is they don't that's really really tough is they don't that's really really tough to do yeah coming into we know they to do yeah coming into we know they to do yeah coming into we know they don't because they're it doesn't exist don't because they're it doesn't exist don't because they're it doesn't exist we have the data as far as we know i'm we have the data as far as we know i'm we have the data as far as we know i'm sure there's a few like special ones and sure there's a few like special ones and sure there's a few like special ones and they did off quickly they did off quickly they did off quickly i'd love to know some of the most fun

i'd love to know some of the most fun i'd love to know some of the most fun things bacteria have done since things bacteria have done since things bacteria have done since oh there's a few i mean they can do some oh there's a few i mean they can do some oh there's a few i mean they can do some pretty funky things and this is big this pretty funky things and this is big this pretty funky things and this is big this is broad brush stroke that i'm talking is broad brush stroke that i'm talking is broad brush stroke that i'm talking about about about yeah generally speaking uh so how was uh yeah generally speaking uh so how was uh yeah generally speaking uh so how was uh so another you know fun invention so another you know fun invention so another you know fun invention us humans seem to uh utilize it well but us humans seem to uh utilize it well but us humans seem to uh utilize it well but you say it's also very important early you say it's also very important early you say it's also very important early on is sex on is sex on is sex so uh so uh so uh what is sex uh just asking for a friend what is sex uh just asking for a friend what is sex uh just asking for a friend and when was it invented and how hard and when was it invented and how hard and when was it invented and how hard was it to invent just as you were saying was it to invent just as you were saying was it to invent just as you were saying and why was it invented why and why was it invented why and why was it invented why how hard was it and when how hard was it and when how hard was it and when i have a phd student who's been working i have a phd student who's been working i have a phd student who's been working on this and we've just asked a couple of on this and we've just asked a couple of on this and we've just asked a couple of papers on sex yes yes what do you papers on sex yes yes what do you papers on sex yes yes what do you publish these biology is it biology publish these biology is it biology publish these biology is it biology genetics journals yeah this is actually genetics journals yeah this is actually genetics journals yeah this is actually pnas which is pnas which is pnas which is proceedings of the national academy proceedings of the national academy proceedings of the national academy broad big big picture everyone's broad big big picture everyone's broad big big picture everyone's interested in sex interested in sex interested in sex of biologists is to make sex dull of biologists is to make sex dull of biologists is to make sex dull yes yeah that's a beautiful way to put yes yeah that's a beautiful way to put yes yeah that's a beautiful way to put it okay so when was it invented it okay so when was it invented it okay so when was it invented uh it was invented with eukaryotes about uh it was invented with eukaryotes about uh it was invented with eukaryotes about two billion years ago two billion years ago two billion years ago um all eukaryotes um all eukaryotes um all eukaryotes share the same basic mechanism that you share the same basic mechanism that you share the same basic mechanism that you produce gametes the gametes fuse produce gametes the gametes fuse produce gametes the gametes fuse together so a gamete is the egg cell and together so a gamete is the egg cell and together so a gamete is the egg cell and the sperm they're not necessarily even the sperm they're not necessarily even the sperm they're not necessarily even different in size or shape so the different in size or shape so the different in size or shape so the simplest eukaryotes produce what are simplest eukaryotes produce what are simplest eukaryotes produce what are called motile gametes they're all like called motile gametes they're all like called motile gametes they're all like sperm and they all swim around they find sperm and they all swim around they find sperm and they all swim around they find each other they fuse together they don't each other they fuse together they don't each other they fuse together they don't have kind of much have kind of much have kind of much much going on there beyond that and then

much going on there beyond that and then much going on there beyond that and then these are these are these are haploid which is to say we all have two haploid which is to say we all have two haploid which is to say we all have two copies of our genome and the the gametes copies of our genome and the the gametes copies of our genome and the the gametes have only a single copy of the genome so have only a single copy of the genome so have only a single copy of the genome so when they fuse together you now become when they fuse together you now become when they fuse together you now become diploid again which is to say you now diploid again which is to say you now diploid again which is to say you now have two copies of your genome and what have two copies of your genome and what have two copies of your genome and what you do is you line them all up you do is you line them all up you do is you line them all up um and then you and then you double um and then you and then you double um and then you and then you double everything so now we have four copies of everything so now we have four copies of everything so now we have four copies of the complete genome and then we criss the complete genome and then we criss the complete genome and then we criss cross between all of these things so we cross between all of these things so we cross between all of these things so we take a bit from here and stick it on take a bit from here and stick it on take a bit from here and stick it on there and a bit from here and we stick there and a bit from here and we stick there and a bit from here and we stick it on here that's recombination it on here that's recombination it on here that's recombination um and and then we go through two rounds um and and then we go through two rounds um and and then we go through two rounds of cell division so we divide in half so of cell division so we divide in half so of cell division so we divide in half so now the two daughter cells have two now the two daughter cells have two now the two daughter cells have two copies and we don't divide in half again copies and we don't divide in half again copies and we don't divide in half again now we have some gametes each of which now we have some gametes each of which now we have some gametes each of which has got a single copy of the genome has got a single copy of the genome has got a single copy of the genome and that's the basic ground plan for and that's the basic ground plan for and that's the basic ground plan for what's called meiosis and uh and what's called meiosis and uh and what's called meiosis and uh and enhancing enhancing enhancing that's basically sex that's basically sex that's basically sex and it happens at the level of and it happens at the level of and it happens at the level of single-celled organisms and it happens single-celled organisms and it happens single-celled organisms and it happens pretty much the same way in plants and pretty much the same way in plants and pretty much the same way in plants and pretty much the same way in animals and pretty much the same way in animals and pretty much the same way in animals and so on and it's not found in any bacteria so on and it's not found in any bacteria so on and it's not found in any bacteria they switch things around using the same they switch things around using the same they switch things around using the same machinery and they take up a bit of dna machinery and they take up a bit of dna machinery and they take up a bit of dna from the environment they take out this from the environment they take out this from the environment they take out this bit and stick in that bit and it's the bit and stick in that bit and it's the bit and stick in that bit and it's the same molecular machinery they're using same molecular machinery they're using same molecular machinery they're using to do it so what about the kind of you to do it so what about the kind of you to do it so what about the kind of you said find each other this kind of said find each other this kind of said find each other this kind of imperative imperative imperative yeah find each other yeah find each other yeah find each other what is that what is that what is that like is that well you've got a few cells like is that well you've got a few cells like is that well you've got a few cells together together together so the bottom the bottom line on all of so the bottom the bottom line on all of so the bottom the bottom line on all of this is is is bacteria i mean it's kind this is is is bacteria i mean it's kind this is is is bacteria i mean it's kind of simple uh when when you when you've of simple uh when when you when you've of simple uh when when you when you've figured it out and figuring it out this figured it out and figuring it out this figured it out and figuring it out this is not me this is my phd student marco is not me this is my phd student marco is not me this is my phd student marco kolnagi um

kolnagi um kolnagi um and uh and and uh and and uh and in effect if you if you're doing lateral in effect if you if you're doing lateral in effect if you if you're doing lateral you're an e coli cell you've got 4 000 you're an e coli cell you've got 4 000 you're an e coli cell you've got 4 000 genes you want to scale up to a genes you want to scale up to a genes you want to scale up to a eukaryotic size and i want to have 20 eukaryotic size and i want to have 20 eukaryotic size and i want to have 20 000 genes um and i'm and i need to 000 genes um and i'm and i need to 000 genes um and i'm and i need to maintain my genome so it doesn't get maintain my genome so it doesn't get maintain my genome so it doesn't get shot to pieces by mutations and i'm shot to pieces by mutations and i'm shot to pieces by mutations and i'm going to do it by lateral gene transfer going to do it by lateral gene transfer going to do it by lateral gene transfer so so so i know i've got a mutation in a gene i i know i've got a mutation in a gene i i know i've got a mutation in a gene i don't know which gene it is because i'm don't know which gene it is because i'm don't know which gene it is because i'm not sentient but i know i can't grow i not sentient but i know i can't grow i not sentient but i know i can't grow i know all my regulation systems are know all my regulation systems are know all my regulation systems are saying saying saying something wrong here something wrong something wrong here something wrong something wrong here something wrong pick up some dna pick up a bit of dna pick up some dna pick up a bit of dna pick up some dna pick up a bit of dna from the environment from the environment from the environment if you've got a small genome the chances if you've got a small genome the chances if you've got a small genome the chances of you picking up the right bit of dna of you picking up the right bit of dna of you picking up the right bit of dna from the environment is much higher than from the environment is much higher than from the environment is much higher than if you've got a genome of 20 000 genes if you've got a genome of 20 000 genes if you've got a genome of 20 000 genes to do that you've effectively got to be to do that you've effectively got to be to do that you've effectively got to be picking up dna all the time all day long picking up dna all the time all day long picking up dna all the time all day long and nothing else and you're still going and nothing else and you're still going and nothing else and you're still going to get the wrong dna you've got to pick to get the wrong dna you've got to pick to get the wrong dna you've got to pick up large chunks and in the end you've up large chunks and in the end you've up large chunks and in the end you've got to align them you're forced got to align them you're forced got to align them you're forced into into into to kind of phrase um to kind of phrase um to kind of phrase um so yeah so yeah so yeah uh so it's it's so there is a kind of uh uh so it's it's so there is a kind of uh uh so it's it's so there is a kind of uh um incentive um incentive um incentive uh if you want to have a large genome uh if you want to have a large genome uh if you want to have a large genome you've got to prevent it mutating to you've got to prevent it mutating to you've got to prevent it mutating to nothing nothing nothing that will happen with bacteria there's that will happen with bacteria there's that will happen with bacteria there's another reason why bacteria can't have a another reason why bacteria can't have a another reason why bacteria can't have a large genome but as soon as you give large genome but as soon as you give large genome but as soon as you give them the power path as soon as you give them the power path as soon as you give them the power path as soon as you give your carotid cells the power pack that your carotid cells the power pack that your carotid cells the power pack that allows them to increase the size of allows them to increase the size of allows them to increase the size of their genome then you face the pressure their genome then you face the pressure their genome then you face the pressure that you've got to maintain its quality that you've got to maintain its quality that you've got to maintain its quality you've got to stop it just mutating away you've got to stop it just mutating away you've got to stop it just mutating away what about sexual selection so the the what about sexual selection so the the what about sexual selection so the the finding finding finding uh like uh i don't like this one i don't

uh like uh i don't like this one i don't uh like uh i don't like this one i don't like this one this one seems all right like this one this one seems all right like this one this one seems all right like what's the the like what's the the like what's the the the is is it at which point does it the is is it at which point does it the is is it at which point does it become less random it's hard to know become less random it's hard to know become less random it's hard to know because your courier's just kind of because your courier's just kind of because your courier's just kind of floated around i'm just kind of have floated around i'm just kind of have floated around i'm just kind of have yeah there's everything that's their yeah there's everything that's their yeah there's everything that's their section section section in single cell do you characterize the in single cell do you characterize the in single cell do you characterize the probably is it's just that i don't know probably is it's just that i don't know probably is it's just that i don't know very much about it by the time you don't very much about it by the time you don't very much about it by the time you don't hang out with the acquisitions well i do hang out with the acquisitions well i do hang out with the acquisitions well i do all the time but you know but they can't all the time but you know but they can't all the time but you know but they can't communicate with them yet yeah communicate with them yet yeah communicate with them yet yeah peacock or something yes um peacock or something yes um peacock or something yes um the kind of standardize is not quite the kind of standardize is not quite the kind of standardize is not quite what i work on but the standard answer what i work on but the standard answer what i work on but the standard answer uh is that uh is that uh is that it's female mate choice she is looking it's female mate choice she is looking it's female mate choice she is looking for good genes for good genes for good genes um and and if you can have a tail that's um and and if you can have a tail that's um and and if you can have a tail that's like this like this like this and and still survive still be alive not and and still survive still be alive not and and still survive still be alive not actually being taken down by the nearest actually being taken down by the nearest actually being taken down by the nearest predator then you must have got pretty predator then you must have got pretty predator then you must have got pretty good genes because despite this handicap good genes because despite this handicap good genes because despite this handicap you're able to survive so so those are you're able to survive so so those are you're able to survive so so those are like human interpretable things like like human interpretable things like like human interpretable things like with a peacock but i wonder i'm sure with a peacock but i wonder i'm sure with a peacock but i wonder i'm sure echoes of the same thing echoes of the same thing echoes of the same thing are there with more primitive are there with more primitive are there with more primitive organisms organisms organisms basically your pr like uh how you basically your pr like uh how you basically your pr like uh how you advertise yourself that you're worthy advertise yourself that you're worthy advertise yourself that you're worthy yeah of uh absolutely so one big yeah of uh absolutely so one big yeah of uh absolutely so one big advertisement is the fact that you advertisement is the fact that you advertisement is the fact that you survived it all survived it all survived it all let me give you one one beautiful let me give you one one beautiful let me give you one one beautiful example uh of an algal bloom example uh of an algal bloom example uh of an algal bloom and this can be this can be a and this can be this can be a and this can be this can be a cyanobacteria it can be in bacteria cyanobacteria it can be in bacteria cyanobacteria it can be in bacteria so so if if suddenly you you know you so so if if suddenly you you know you so so if if suddenly you you know you pump nitrate or phosphate or something pump nitrate or phosphate or something pump nitrate or phosphate or something into the ocean and everything goes green into the ocean and everything goes green into the ocean and everything goes green you end up with all this you end up with all this you end up with all this uh

uh uh algae growing there algae growing there algae growing there um um um a viral infection or something like that a viral infection or something like that a viral infection or something like that can kill the entire bloom overnight can kill the entire bloom overnight can kill the entire bloom overnight and it's not that the virus takes out and it's not that the virus takes out and it's not that the virus takes out everything overnight it's that most of everything overnight it's that most of everything overnight it's that most of the cells in that bloom kill themselves the cells in that bloom kill themselves the cells in that bloom kill themselves before the virus can get onto them and before the virus can get onto them and before the virus can get onto them and it's through a form of cell death called it's through a form of cell death called it's through a form of cell death called programmed cell death and we we do the programmed cell death and we we do the programmed cell death and we we do the same thing this is how we have the same thing this is how we have the same thing this is how we have the different you know the gaps between our different you know the gaps between our different you know the gaps between our fingers and so on it's how we craft fingers and so on it's how we craft fingers and so on it's how we craft synapses in the brain synapses in the brain synapses in the brain um it you know is fundamental again to um it you know is fundamental again to um it you know is fundamental again to to to to to multicellular life they have the same to multicellular life they have the same to multicellular life they have the same machinery in these in these algal blooms machinery in these in these algal blooms machinery in these in these algal blooms how do they know who dies the answer is how do they know who dies the answer is how do they know who dies the answer is they will often put out a toxin they will often put out a toxin they will often put out a toxin and that toxin and that toxin and that toxin is a kind of a challenge to you either is a kind of a challenge to you either is a kind of a challenge to you either you can cope with the toxin or you can't you can cope with the toxin or you can't you can cope with the toxin or you can't if you can cope with it you form a spore if you can cope with it you form a spore if you can cope with it you form a spore and you will go on to become the next and you will go on to become the next and you will go on to become the next generation you you you form a kind of a generation you you you form a kind of a generation you you you form a kind of a resistance spore you sink down a little resistance spore you sink down a little resistance spore you sink down a little bit you get out of the way you're out of bit you get out of the way you're out of bit you get out of the way you're out of the out out of you can't be attacked by the out out of you can't be attacked by the out out of you can't be attacked by a virus if you're a spore at least not a virus if you're a spore at least not a virus if you're a spore at least not so easily whereas if you can't deal with so easily whereas if you can't deal with so easily whereas if you can't deal with that toxin you pull the plug and you you that toxin you pull the plug and you you that toxin you pull the plug and you you you you trigger your death apparatus and you you trigger your death apparatus and you you trigger your death apparatus and you kill yourself because it's truly you kill yourself because it's truly you kill yourself because it's truly life and death life and death life and death yeah yeah yeah so it's really it's a challenge and this so it's really it's a challenge and this so it's really it's a challenge and this is a bit like sexual selection it's not is a bit like sexual selection it's not is a bit like sexual selection it's not so they're all pretty much genetically so they're all pretty much genetically so they're all pretty much genetically identical identical identical but they've had different life histories but they've had different life histories but they've had different life histories so have you had a you know a tough day so have you had a you know a tough day so have you had a you know a tough day did you did you happen to get infected did you did you happen to get infected did you did you happen to get infected by this virus or did you run out of iron by this virus or did you run out of iron by this virus or did you run out of iron or did you get a bit too much sun

or did you get a bit too much sun or did you get a bit too much sun whatever it may be if this extra stress whatever it may be if this extra stress whatever it may be if this extra stress of the toxin just pushes you over the of the toxin just pushes you over the of the toxin just pushes you over the edge then you have this binary choice edge then you have this binary choice edge then you have this binary choice either you're the next generation or you either you're the next generation or you either you're the next generation or you kill yourself now using this same kill yourself now using this same kill yourself now using this same machinery it's also actually exactly the machinery it's also actually exactly the machinery it's also actually exactly the way i approach dating but that's way i approach dating but that's way i approach dating but that's probably why i'm single okay probably why i'm single okay probably why i'm single okay uh what about if we can step back dna uh what about if we can step back dna uh what about if we can step back dna just mechanism of storing information just mechanism of storing information just mechanism of storing information rna dna yeah how big of an invention was rna dna yeah how big of an invention was rna dna yeah how big of an invention was that that seems to be you that seems to that that seems to be you that seems to that that seems to be you that seems to be fundamental to be fundamental to be fundamental to like like like something something something deep within what life is is the ability deep within what life is is the ability deep within what life is is the ability as you said to kind of store and as you said to kind of store and as you said to kind of store and propagate information but then you also propagate information but then you also propagate information but then you also kind of infer that with your and your kind of infer that with your and your kind of infer that with your and your students work that students work that students work that there's a deep connection between the there's a deep connection between the there's a deep connection between the chemistry and the ability chemistry and the ability chemistry and the ability uh to have this kind of genetic uh to have this kind of genetic uh to have this kind of genetic information so how big of an invention information so how big of an invention information so how big of an invention is is it to have is is it to have is is it to have a nice representation a nice hard drive a nice representation a nice hard drive a nice representation a nice hard drive for info to pass on huge i suspect uh i for info to pass on huge i suspect uh i for info to pass on huge i suspect uh i mean but mean but mean but when i was talking about the code you when i was talking about the code you when i was talking about the code you see the code in rna as well and rna see the code in rna as well and rna see the code in rna as well and rna almost certainly came first almost certainly came first almost certainly came first um and there's been an idea going back um and there's been an idea going back um and there's been an idea going back decades called the rna world because rna decades called the rna world because rna decades called the rna world because rna in theory can copy itself and can in theory can copy itself and can in theory can copy itself and can catalyze reactions so it kind of cuts catalyze reactions so it kind of cuts catalyze reactions so it kind of cuts out this chicken and egg loop so dna out this chicken and egg loop so dna out this chicken and egg loop so dna it's possible it's not that special so it's possible it's not that special so it's possible it's not that special so our rna rna is the thing that does the our rna rna is the thing that does the our rna rna is the thing that does the work really work really work really and the code lies in rna the code lies and the code lies in rna the code lies and the code lies in rna the code lies in the interactions between rna and

in the interactions between rna and in the interactions between rna and amino acids and it still is there today amino acids and it still is there today amino acids and it still is there today in the ribosome for example which is in the ribosome for example which is in the ribosome for example which is just kind of a giant ribozyme which is just kind of a giant ribozyme which is just kind of a giant ribozyme which is to say it's an enzyme that's made of rna to say it's an enzyme that's made of rna to say it's an enzyme that's made of rna so so so getting to rna i suspect is probably not getting to rna i suspect is probably not getting to rna i suspect is probably not that hard that hard that hard but getting from rna but getting from rna but getting from rna how do you you know there's multiple how do you you know there's multiple how do you you know there's multiple different types of rna now how do how do different types of rna now how do how do different types of rna now how do how do how do you distinguish this is something how do you distinguish this is something how do you distinguish this is something where actively thinking about how do you where actively thinking about how do you where actively thinking about how do you distinguish between you know a random distinguish between you know a random distinguish between you know a random population of rnas some of them go on to population of rnas some of them go on to population of rnas some of them go on to become become become messenger rna that this is the the messenger rna that this is the the messenger rna that this is the the transcript of the code of the gene that transcript of the code of the gene that transcript of the code of the gene that you you want to make some of them become you you want to make some of them become you you want to make some of them become transfer rna which is which is the kind transfer rna which is which is the kind transfer rna which is which is the kind of the unit that holds the amino acid of the unit that holds the amino acid of the unit that holds the amino acid that's going to be polynomial that's going to be polynomial that's going to be polynomial polymerized some of them become polymerized some of them become polymerized some of them become ribosomal rna which is the machine which ribosomal rna which is the machine which ribosomal rna which is the machine which is joining them all up together is joining them all up together is joining them all up together how do they how do they how do they discriminate themselves and discriminate themselves and discriminate themselves and you know some kind of phase transition you know some kind of phase transition you know some kind of phase transition going on there what's i don't know it's going on there what's i don't know it's going on there what's i don't know it's a difficult question a difficult question a difficult question and we're now and we're now and we're now in the region of biology where in the region of biology where in the region of biology where information is coming in but the thing information is coming in but the thing information is coming in but the thing about rna is very very good at what it about rna is very very good at what it about rna is very very good at what it does but the largest genomes supported does but the largest genomes supported does but the largest genomes supported by rna of rna viruses like hiv for by rna of rna viruses like hiv for by rna of rna viruses like hiv for example they're pretty small example they're pretty small example they're pretty small and and so there's a limit to how and and so there's a limit to how and and so there's a limit to how complex life could be complex life could be complex life could be unless you come up with dna which unless you come up with dna which unless you come up with dna which chemically is a really small change but chemically is a really small change but chemically is a really small change but how easy it is to make that change how easy it is to make that change how easy it is to make that change i don't really know as soon as you've i don't really know as soon as you've i don't really know as soon as you've got dna then you've got an amazingly got dna then you've got an amazingly got dna then you've got an amazingly stable molecule for information storage

stable molecule for information storage stable molecule for information storage um and you can do absolutely anything um and you can do absolutely anything um and you can do absolutely anything but how likely that transition from rna but how likely that transition from rna but how likely that transition from rna to dna was i don't know either to dna was i don't know either to dna was i don't know either how much possibility is there for how much possibility is there for how much possibility is there for variety variety variety in ways to store information because it in ways to store information because it in ways to store information because it seems to be very specific seems to be very specific seems to be very specific characteristics about characteristics about characteristics about the the programming language of dna yeah the the programming language of dna yeah the the programming language of dna yeah there's a lot of work going on what's there's a lot of work going on what's there's a lot of work going on what's called xenodna or called xenodna or called xenodna or rna can we replace the the bases rna can we replace the the bases rna can we replace the the bases themselves the the letters if you like themselves the the letters if you like themselves the the letters if you like in in in rna or dna can we replace the in in in rna or dna can we replace the in in in rna or dna can we replace the backbone can we replace for example backbone can we replace for example backbone can we replace for example phosphate with arsenate phosphate with arsenate phosphate with arsenate can we replace the sugar ribose or can we replace the sugar ribose or can we replace the sugar ribose or deoxyribose with a different sugar and deoxyribose with a different sugar and deoxyribose with a different sugar and the answer is yes you can the answer is yes you can the answer is yes you can um um um within limits within limits within limits there's not an infinite space there there's not an infinite space there there's not an infinite space there arsenate doesn't really work if the arsenate doesn't really work if the arsenate doesn't really work if the bonds are not as strong as phosphate bonds are not as strong as phosphate bonds are not as strong as phosphate it's probably quite hard to replace it's probably quite hard to replace it's probably quite hard to replace phosphate um phosphate um phosphate um it's possible to do it the question to it's possible to do it the question to it's possible to do it the question to me is me is me is why is it this way why is it this way why is it this way is it because there was some form of is it because there was some form of is it because there was some form of selection that this is better than the selection that this is better than the selection that this is better than the other forms and there were lots of other forms and there were lots of other forms and there were lots of competing forms of information storage competing forms of information storage competing forms of information storage early on and this one was the one that early on and this one was the one that early on and this one was the one that worked out or was it kind of channeled worked out or was it kind of channeled worked out or was it kind of channeled that way that these are the molecules that way that these are the molecules that way that these are the molecules that you're dealing with that you're dealing with that you're dealing with um and and they work uh and i'm um and and they work uh and i'm um and and they work uh and i'm increasingly thinking it's that way that increasingly thinking it's that way that increasingly thinking it's that way that we're channeled towards ribose phosphate we're channeled towards ribose phosphate we're channeled towards ribose phosphate and and and and and and and the bases that are used but there and the bases that are used but there and the bases that are used but there are you know 200 different letters are you know 200 different letters are you know 200 different letters kicking around out there that could have kicking around out there that could have kicking around out there that could have been used it's such an interesting been used it's such an interesting been used it's such an interesting question if you look at in the

question if you look at in the question if you look at in the programming world in computer science programming world in computer science programming world in computer science there's a programming language called there's a programming language called there's a programming language called javascript yeah which was uh written javascript yeah which was uh written javascript yeah which was uh written super quickly it's a giant mess but it super quickly it's a giant mess but it super quickly it's a giant mess but it took over the world took over the world took over the world and it was sounds very biological it was and it was sounds very biological it was and it was sounds very biological it was it was kind of a running joke that like it was kind of a running joke that like it was kind of a running joke that like um um um like surely this can't be like surely this can't be like surely this can't be the it's a terrible programming language the it's a terrible programming language the it's a terrible programming language it's a giant mess it's full of it's a giant mess it's full of it's a giant mess it's full of bugs it's so easy to write really crappy bugs it's so easy to write really crappy bugs it's so easy to write really crappy code but it took over all of front-end code but it took over all of front-end code but it took over all of front-end development in the web browser development in the web browser development in the web browser if you have any kind of dynamic if you have any kind of dynamic if you have any kind of dynamic interactive website it has it's usually interactive website it has it's usually interactive website it has it's usually running javascript running javascript running javascript and it's now taking over much of the and it's now taking over much of the and it's now taking over much of the backend which is like the serious heavy backend which is like the serious heavy backend which is like the serious heavy duty computational stuff and it's become duty computational stuff and it's become duty computational stuff and it's become super fast with the different super fast with the different super fast with the different compilation engines compilation engines compilation engines um that are running it so it's like it um that are running it so it's like it um that are running it so it's like it really took over the world it's very really took over the world it's very really took over the world it's very possible that this possible that this possible that this initially crappy initially crappy initially crappy uh derided language actually takes uh derided language actually takes uh derided language actually takes everything over and then the question is everything over and then the question is everything over and then the question is did human civilization always strive did human civilization always strive did human civilization always strive towards javascript towards javascript towards javascript or was javascript just the first or was javascript just the first or was javascript just the first programming language that ran on the programming language that ran on the programming language that ran on the browser and still sticky the first the browser and still sticky the first the browser and still sticky the first the first is the sticky one and so it wins first is the sticky one and so it wins first is the sticky one and so it wins over anything else because it was first over anything else because it was first over anything else because it was first and we i don't think that's answerable and we i don't think that's answerable and we i don't think that's answerable right but it's good to right but it's good to right but it's good to ask that i suppose in the lab ask that i suppose in the lab ask that i suppose in the lab you can't you can't you can't you can't you can't you can't run it with programming languages but in run it with programming languages but in run it with programming languages but in biology you can probably biology you can probably biology you can probably do some kind of do some kind of do some kind of um um um small scale evolutionary

small scale evolutionary small scale evolutionary tests to try to infer which which is tests to try to infer which which is tests to try to infer which which is which yeah i mean in a way we've we've which yeah i mean in a way we've we've which yeah i mean in a way we've we've got the hardware and the software here got the hardware and the software here got the hardware and the software here and and the the hardware is maybe the and and the the hardware is maybe the and and the the hardware is maybe the the dna and the rna itself and then the the dna and the rna itself and then the the dna and the rna itself and then the software perhaps is more about the code software perhaps is more about the code software perhaps is more about the code is did the code have to be this way is did the code have to be this way is did the code have to be this way could it have been a different way yeah could it have been a different way yeah could it have been a different way yeah people talk about the optimization of people talk about the optimization of people talk about the optimization of the code and there's some suggestion for the code and there's some suggestion for the code and there's some suggestion for that uh i think it's weak actually that uh i think it's weak actually that uh i think it's weak actually but you could imagine you could come out but you could imagine you could come out but you could imagine you could come out with a million different codes and and with a million different codes and and with a million different codes and and this would be one of the best ones this would be one of the best ones this would be one of the best ones um um um well we don't know this well i mean well we don't know this well i mean well we don't know this well i mean people have tried to model it based on people have tried to model it based on people have tried to model it based on the effect that mutations would have the effect that mutations would have the effect that mutations would have um so no you're right we don't know um so no you're right we don't know um so no you're right we don't know because that's the thing that's a single because that's the thing that's a single because that's the thing that's a single assumption that a mutation is is what's assumption that a mutation is is what's assumption that a mutation is is what's being selected on there and there's being selected on there and there's being selected on there and there's other possibilities too i mean there other possibilities too i mean there other possibilities too i mean there does seem to be a resilience and a does seem to be a resilience and a does seem to be a resilience and a redundancy to the whole thing it's hard redundancy to the whole thing it's hard redundancy to the whole thing it's hard to mess up to mess up to mess up in in the way you mess it up in in the way you mess it up in in the way you mess it up often often often is likely to produce interesting results is likely to produce interesting results is likely to produce interesting results so it's um are you talking about so it's um are you talking about so it's um are you talking about javascript or the genetic code now javascript or the genetic code now javascript or the genetic code now yeah well i mean it's almost you know yeah well i mean it's almost you know yeah well i mean it's almost you know biology is underpinned by this kind of biology is underpinned by this kind of biology is underpinned by this kind of mess as well you look at the human mess as well you look at the human mess as well you look at the human genome and it's full of stuff that is genome and it's full of stuff that is genome and it's full of stuff that is really either broken or dysfunctional or really either broken or dysfunctional or really either broken or dysfunctional or was a virus once whatever it may be and was a virus once whatever it may be and was a virus once whatever it may be and somehow it works and maybe we need a lot somehow it works and maybe we need a lot somehow it works and maybe we need a lot of this mess you know we know that some of this mess you know we know that some of this mess you know we know that some functional genes are taken from this functional genes are taken from this functional genes are taken from this mess mess mess so what about you mentioned so what about you mentioned so what about you mentioned predatory behavior predatory behavior predatory behavior yeah we talked about sex what about

yeah we talked about sex what about yeah we talked about sex what about violence predator and prey dynamics violence predator and prey dynamics violence predator and prey dynamics how uh when was that invented how uh when was that invented how uh when was that invented and uh and uh and uh poetic and biological ways of putting it poetic and biological ways of putting it poetic and biological ways of putting it like what how do you describe a like what how do you describe a like what how do you describe a predator-prey relationship is it a predator-prey relationship is it a predator-prey relationship is it a beautiful dance or is it a beautiful dance or is it a beautiful dance or is it a violent atrocity violent atrocity violent atrocity well i guess it's both isn't it i mean well i guess it's both isn't it i mean well i guess it's both isn't it i mean when does it start it starts in bacteria when does it start it starts in bacteria when does it start it starts in bacteria you see these amazing predators you see these amazing predators you see these amazing predators delivibrio is one that lynne margulis delivibrio is one that lynne margulis delivibrio is one that lynne margulis used to talk about a lot um it's it's used to talk about a lot um it's it's used to talk about a lot um it's it's got a kind of a drill piece that drills got a kind of a drill piece that drills got a kind of a drill piece that drills through the wall and the membrane of the through the wall and the membrane of the through the wall and the membrane of the bacterium and then it effectively eats bacterium and then it effectively eats bacterium and then it effectively eats the bacterium from just inside the the bacterium from just inside the the bacterium from just inside the periplasmic space and makes copies of periplasmic space and makes copies of periplasmic space and makes copies of itself that way so that's straight itself that way so that's straight itself that way so that's straight predation there are predators among predation there are predators among predation there are predators among bacteria bacteria bacteria so predation in that sorry to interrupt so predation in that sorry to interrupt so predation in that sorry to interrupt means means means you murder somebody and you murder somebody and you murder somebody and use their body as a resource use their body as a resource use their body as a resource in some way in some way in some way yeah but it's not parasitic yeah but it's not parasitic yeah but it's not parasitic in that you need them to be still alive in that you need them to be still alive in that you need them to be still alive no no i mean predation is you kill them no no i mean predation is you kill them no no i mean predation is you kill them really murder parasite is so you kind of really murder parasite is so you kind of really murder parasite is so you kind of live on them okay so but it seems the live on them okay so but it seems the live on them okay so but it seems the predator is really popular predator is really popular predator is really popular uh um uh um uh um so what we see if we go back so what we see if we go back so what we see if we go back 560 570 million years 560 570 million years 560 570 million years before the cambrian explosion there is before the cambrian explosion there is before the cambrian explosion there is um um um what's known as the ediacaran fauna or what's known as the ediacaran fauna or what's known as the ediacaran fauna or sometimes they call vendo bions which is sometimes they call vendo bions which is sometimes they call vendo bions which is a lovely name a lovely name a lovely name uh and and it's not obvious that they're

uh and and it's not obvious that they're uh and and it's not obvious that they're animals at all animals at all animals at all uh they're stalked things they often uh they're stalked things they often uh they're stalked things they often have fronds that look a lot like leaves have fronds that look a lot like leaves have fronds that look a lot like leaves with kind of fractal branching patterns with kind of fractal branching patterns with kind of fractal branching patterns on them um on them um on them um and and and the thing is they've they're found the thing is they've they're found the thing is they've they're found sometimes sometimes sometimes geologists can figure out the geologists can figure out the geologists can figure out the environment that they were in and say environment that they were in and say environment that they were in and say this is more than 200 meters deep this is more than 200 meters deep this is more than 200 meters deep because there's no sign of any waves because there's no sign of any waves because there's no sign of any waves there's no you know there's no you know there's no you know no storm damage down here this kind of no storm damage down here this kind of no storm damage down here this kind of thing thing thing they were more than 200 meters deep so they were more than 200 meters deep so they were more than 200 meters deep so they're definitely not photosynthetic they're definitely not photosynthetic they're definitely not photosynthetic these are animals these are animals these are animals and they're they're filter feeders and and they're they're filter feeders and and they're they're filter feeders and we know things you know sponges and we know things you know sponges and we know things you know sponges and corals and things are filter-feeding corals and things are filter-feeding corals and things are filter-feeding animals they're stuck to the spot uh and animals they're stuck to the spot uh and animals they're stuck to the spot uh and little bits of carbon that come their little bits of carbon that come their little bits of carbon that come their way they they filter it out and that's way they they filter it out and that's way they they filter it out and that's what they're eating what they're eating what they're eating um so no predation involved in this um so no predation involved in this um so no predation involved in this beyond stuff just dies anyway and it beyond stuff just dies anyway and it beyond stuff just dies anyway and it feels like a very gentle rather feels like a very gentle rather feels like a very gentle rather beautiful rather limited world you might beautiful rather limited world you might beautiful rather limited world you might say say say there's not a lot going on there there's not a lot going on there there's not a lot going on there and and and something changes something changes something changes oxygen definitely changes during this oxygen definitely changes during this oxygen definitely changes during this period other things may have changed as period other things may have changed as period other things may have changed as well but the next thing you really see well but the next thing you really see well but the next thing you really see in the fossil record is the cambrian in the fossil record is the cambrian in the fossil record is the cambrian explosion explosion explosion and what do we see there and what do we see there and what do we see there we're now seeing animals that we would we're now seeing animals that we would we're now seeing animals that we would recognize they've got eyes they've got recognize they've got eyes they've got recognize they've got eyes they've got claws they've got shells they're you claws they've got shells they're you claws they've got shells they're you know they're plainly killing things or know they're plainly killing things or know they're plainly killing things or running away running away running away um and and hiding um and and so we've um and and hiding um and and so we've um and and hiding um and and so we've gone from a rather gentle but limited gone from a rather gentle but limited gone from a rather gentle but limited world to a rather vicious unpleasant world to a rather vicious unpleasant world to a rather vicious unpleasant world that we recognize

world that we recognize world that we recognize and which leads to and which leads to and which leads to kind of arms races evolutionary arms kind of arms races evolutionary arms kind of arms races evolutionary arms races races races which again is something that when we which again is something that when we which again is something that when we think about a nuclear arms race we think think about a nuclear arms race we think think about a nuclear arms race we think jesus we don't want to go there it's not jesus we don't want to go there it's not jesus we don't want to go there it's not done anybody any good done anybody any good done anybody any good in some ways maybe we maybe it does do in some ways maybe we maybe it does do in some ways maybe we maybe it does do good i don't want to make an argument good i don't want to make an argument good i don't want to make an argument for nuclear arms but but predation for nuclear arms but but predation for nuclear arms but but predation as a as a mechanism as a as a mechanism as a as a mechanism forces organisms to adapt to change to forces organisms to adapt to change to forces organisms to adapt to change to be better to escape to to or to kill um be better to escape to to or to kill um be better to escape to to or to kill um if you need to eat then you've got to if you need to eat then you've got to if you need to eat then you've got to eat and you know a cheetah is not going eat and you know a cheetah is not going eat and you know a cheetah is not going to run at that speed unless it's to run at that speed unless it's to run at that speed unless it's unless it has to because the the zebra unless it has to because the the zebra unless it has to because the the zebra is capable of escaping so it leads to is capable of escaping so it leads to is capable of escaping so it leads to to much greater feats of evolution than to much greater feats of evolution than to much greater feats of evolution than would ever have been possible without it would ever have been possible without it would ever have been possible without it and in the end to a much more beautiful and in the end to a much more beautiful and in the end to a much more beautiful world world world and so and so and so it's not all bad it's not all bad it's not all bad by any means the the but the thing is by any means the the but the thing is by any means the the but the thing is you can't have this if you don't have an you can't have this if you don't have an you can't have this if you don't have an oxygenated planet because if you it's oxygenated planet because if you it's oxygenated planet because if you it's all in the end it's about how much all in the end it's about how much all in the end it's about how much energy can you extract from the food you energy can you extract from the food you energy can you extract from the food you eat eat eat and if you don't have an oxygenated and if you don't have an oxygenated and if you don't have an oxygenated planet you can get about 10 planet you can get about 10 planet you can get about 10 out not much more than that um and if out not much more than that um and if out not much more than that um and if you've got an oxygenated planet you can you've got an oxygenated planet you can you've got an oxygenated planet you can get about 40 out and that means you can get about 40 out and that means you can get about 40 out and that means you can have instead of having one or two trophy have instead of having one or two trophy have instead of having one or two trophy levels levels levels you can have five or six trophies levels you can have five or six trophies levels you can have five or six trophies levels and that means things can eat things and that means things can eat things and that means things can eat things that eat other things and so on and and that eat other things and so on and and that eat other things and so on and and you've gone to a level of ecological you've gone to a level of ecological you've gone to a level of ecological complexity which is completely complexity which is completely complexity which is completely impossible in the absence of oxygen impossible in the absence of oxygen impossible in the absence of oxygen this reminds me of the hunter s thompson this reminds me of the hunter s thompson this reminds me of the hunter s thompson quote that for every moment of triumph

quote that for every moment of triumph quote that for every moment of triumph for every instance of beauty for every instance of beauty for every instance of beauty many souls must be trampled many souls must be trampled many souls must be trampled i their the history of life on earth i their the history of life on earth i their the history of life on earth unfortunately is unfortunately is unfortunately is that of violence that of violence that of violence just the trillions and trillions of just the trillions and trillions of just the trillions and trillions of multi-cell organisms that were murdered multi-cell organisms that were murdered multi-cell organisms that were murdered in the in this struggle it's a sorry in the in this struggle it's a sorry in the in this struggle it's a sorry statement but yes it's basically true statement but yes it's basically true statement but yes it's basically true and that's somehow and that's somehow and that's somehow is a catalyst is a catalyst is a catalyst from an evolutionary perspective for from an evolutionary perspective for from an evolutionary perspective for creativity for creativity for creativity for creating more and more complex organisms creating more and more complex organisms creating more and more complex organisms that are better and better at survival i that are better and better at survival i that are better and better at survival i mean survival of the fittest if you just mean survival of the fittest if you just mean survival of the fittest if you just go back to that old phrase means death go back to that old phrase means death go back to that old phrase means death of the weakest um now what's fit what's of the weakest um now what's fit what's of the weakest um now what's fit what's weak these are terms that don't have weak these are terms that don't have weak these are terms that don't have much intrinsic meaning but the thing is much intrinsic meaning but the thing is much intrinsic meaning but the thing is evolution only happens because of death evolution only happens because of death evolution only happens because of death one way to die is the the constraints one way to die is the the constraints one way to die is the the constraints the scarcity of the resources in the the scarcity of the resources in the the scarcity of the resources in the environment environment environment but that seems to be not nearly as good but that seems to be not nearly as good but that seems to be not nearly as good of a mechanisms of a mechanisms of a mechanisms mechanism for death mechanism for death mechanism for death than other creatures than other creatures than other creatures roaming about in the environment when i roaming about in the environment when i roaming about in the environment when i say environment i mean like the static say environment i mean like the static say environment i mean like the static environment but then there's the dynamic environment but then there's the dynamic environment but then there's the dynamic environment of environment of environment of bigger things trying to eat you and use bigger things trying to eat you and use bigger things trying to eat you and use you for your energy you for your energy you for your energy it forces you to come up with a with a it forces you to come up with a with a it forces you to come up with a with a solution to your specific problem solution to your specific problem solution to your specific problem that you that is inventive and is new that you that is inventive and is new that you that is inventive and is new and hasn't been done before and so it and hasn't been done before and so it and hasn't been done before and so it forces i mean literally uh change forces i mean literally uh change forces i mean literally uh change literally evolution on on populations literally evolution on on populations literally evolution on on populations they have to become different and it's

they have to become different and it's they have to become different and it's interesting that humans have channeled interesting that humans have channeled interesting that humans have channeled that that that into more into more into more i mean i guess what humans are doing is i mean i guess what humans are doing is i mean i guess what humans are doing is they're inventing they're inventing they're inventing more productive and safe ways of doing more productive and safe ways of doing more productive and safe ways of doing that you know this whole idea of that you know this whole idea of that you know this whole idea of morality and all those kinds of things morality and all those kinds of things morality and all those kinds of things i think they ultimately lead i think they ultimately lead i think they ultimately lead to competition to competition to competition versus violence because i think versus violence because i think versus violence because i think violence can have a violence can have a violence can have a cold cold cold brutal inefficient aspect to it but if brutal inefficient aspect to it but if brutal inefficient aspect to it but if you channel that into more you channel that into more you channel that into more controlled competition controlled competition controlled competition in the space of ideas in the space of ideas in the space of ideas in the space of approaches to life maybe in the space of approaches to life maybe in the space of approaches to life maybe you can you can you can um um um be even more productive than evolution be even more productive than evolution be even more productive than evolution is because evolution is very wasteful is because evolution is very wasteful is because evolution is very wasteful like the amount of murder required to like the amount of murder required to like the amount of murder required to really test the good idea yeah really test the good idea yeah really test the good idea yeah genetically speaking is just a lot yeah genetically speaking is just a lot yeah genetically speaking is just a lot yeah many many many generations morally we many many many generations morally we many many many generations morally we cannot cannot cannot base society on the way that evolution base society on the way that evolution base society on the way that evolution works that's that's not mentioned right works that's that's not mentioned right works that's that's not mentioned right but actually in some respects we do but actually in some respects we do but actually in some respects we do which is to say this is how science which is to say this is how science which is to say this is how science works we have competing hypotheses that works we have competing hypotheses that works we have competing hypotheses that have to get better otherwise they die have to get better otherwise they die have to get better otherwise they die it's the way that society works we you it's the way that society works we you it's the way that society works we you know in in in ancient greece we had we know in in in ancient greece we had we know in in in ancient greece we had we had the the the athens and sparta and had the the the athens and sparta and had the the the athens and sparta and city-states and then we had the city-states and then we had the city-states and then we had the renaissance and and nation-states and we renaissance and and nation-states and we renaissance and and nation-states and we you know universities compete with each you know universities compete with each you know universities compete with each other yes tremendous amounts of other yes tremendous amounts of other yes tremendous amounts of companies competing with each other all companies competing with each other all companies competing with each other all the time it it drives innovation um the time it it drives innovation um the time it it drives innovation um and if we want to do it without all the and if we want to do it without all the and if we want to do it without all the death that we see in nature then we have

death that we see in nature then we have death that we see in nature then we have to have some kind of societal level to have some kind of societal level to have some kind of societal level control that says well hit the some control that says well hit the some control that says well hit the some limits guys and these are what the limits guys and these are what the limits guys and these are what the limits are going to be and society as a limits are going to be and society as a limits are going to be and society as a whole has to say right we want to limit whole has to say right we want to limit whole has to say right we want to limit the amount of death here so you can't do the amount of death here so you can't do the amount of death here so you can't do this and you can't do that and you know this and you can't do that and you know this and you can't do that and you know who makes up these rules and how do we who makes up these rules and how do we who makes up these rules and how do we know it's it's a tough thing but it's know it's it's a tough thing but it's know it's it's a tough thing but it's basically trying to find a moral basis basically trying to find a moral basis basically trying to find a moral basis for avoiding the death of evolution and for avoiding the death of evolution and for avoiding the death of evolution and natural selection and keeping the the natural selection and keeping the the natural selection and keeping the the the innovation and the and the richness the innovation and the and the richness the innovation and the and the richness of it of it of it i forgot who said it but i forgot who said it but i forgot who said it but that murder is illegal probably current that murder is illegal probably current that murder is illegal probably current finding it murder is illegal except when finding it murder is illegal except when finding it murder is illegal except when it's done to the sound of trumpets and it's done to the sound of trumpets and it's done to the sound of trumpets and at a large scale at a large scale at a large scale so we still have wars so we still have wars so we still have wars but we are struggling with this idea but we are struggling with this idea but we are struggling with this idea that murder is a bad thing that murder is a bad thing that murder is a bad thing it's so interesting how we're channeling it's so interesting how we're channeling it's so interesting how we're channeling the best the best the best of the evolutionary imperative of the evolutionary imperative of the evolutionary imperative and trying to um get rid of the stuff and trying to um get rid of the stuff and trying to um get rid of the stuff that's not productive that's not productive that's not productive trying to almost accelerate evolution trying to almost accelerate evolution trying to almost accelerate evolution the same kind of the same kind of the same kind of thing that um thing that um thing that um uh makes evolution creative we're trying uh makes evolution creative we're trying uh makes evolution creative we're trying to use that i think we naturally do it i to use that i think we naturally do it i to use that i think we naturally do it i mean i don't think we can help ourselves mean i don't think we can help ourselves mean i don't think we can help ourselves do it and you know capitalism capitalism do it and you know capitalism capitalism do it and you know capitalism capitalism as a form is is basically about as a form is is basically about as a form is is basically about competition and and differential rewards competition and and differential rewards competition and and differential rewards but but but we society and you know we have a we society and you know we have a we society and you know we have a i keep using this world moral obligation i keep using this world moral obligation i keep using this world moral obligation but you know we cannot operate as a but you know we cannot operate as a but you know we cannot operate as a society if we go that way it's

society if we go that way it's society if we go that way it's interesting that we've had problems achieving balance so we've had problems achieving balance so for example in the in the financial for example in the in the financial for example in the in the financial crash in 2009 crash in 2009 crash in 2009 do you let banks go to the wall or not do you let banks go to the wall or not do you let banks go to the wall or not this kind of question in evolution this kind of question in evolution this kind of question in evolution certainly you let them go to the wall certainly you let them go to the wall certainly you let them go to the wall and in that sense you don't need the and in that sense you don't need the and in that sense you don't need the regulation because they just die whereas if we whereas if we as a society think about what's required as a society think about what's required as a society think about what's required for society as a whole then you don't for society as a whole then you don't for society as a whole then you don't necessarily let them go to the wall necessarily let them go to the wall necessarily let them go to the wall uh in which case you then have to impose uh in which case you then have to impose uh in which case you then have to impose some kind of regulation that the bankers some kind of regulation that the bankers some kind of regulation that the bankers themselves will in an evolutionary themselves will in an evolutionary themselves will in an evolutionary manner exploit manner exploit manner exploit yeah it's we've been struggling with yeah it's we've been struggling with yeah it's we've been struggling with this kind of idea of capitalism this kind of idea of capitalism this kind of idea of capitalism the the the cold brutality of capitalism the the the cold brutality of capitalism the the the cold brutality of capitalism that seems to create so much that seems to create so much that seems to create so much beautiful things in this world beautiful things in this world beautiful things in this world and then the and then the and then the the ideals of communism that seem to the ideals of communism that seem to the ideals of communism that seem to create so much brutal destruction in create so much brutal destruction in create so much brutal destruction in history and we struggle with ideas history and we struggle with ideas history and we struggle with ideas of well maybe we didn't do it right how of well maybe we didn't do it right how of well maybe we didn't do it right how can we do things better and then the can we do things better and then the can we do things better and then the ideas are the things we're playing with ideas are the things we're playing with ideas are the things we're playing with as opposed to people if a phd student as opposed to people if a phd student as opposed to people if a phd student has a bad idea we don't shoot the phds has a bad idea we don't shoot the phds has a bad idea we don't shoot the phds we just criticize their idea and i hope we just criticize their idea and i hope we just criticize their idea and i hope they improve you have a very humane lab they improve you have a very humane lab they improve you have a very humane lab yeah yeah i don't know how you guys do yeah yeah i don't know how you guys do yeah yeah i don't know how you guys do it you know it you know it you know the way i run things uh it's always life the way i run things uh it's always life the way i run things uh it's always life and death okay so it is interesting and death okay so it is interesting and death okay so it is interesting about humans that there is an inner about humans that there is an inner about humans that there is an inner sense of morality sense of morality sense of morality which begs the question of which begs the question of which begs the question of how did homo sapiens

how did homo sapiens how did homo sapiens evolve if we think about the invention evolve if we think about the invention evolve if we think about the invention of of of early invention of sex and early early invention of sex and early early invention of sex and early invention of predation invention of predation invention of predation what was the thing invented what was the thing invented what was the thing invented to make humans to make humans to make humans what would you say i mean i suppose a what would you say i mean i suppose a what would you say i mean i suppose a couple of things i'd say number one is couple of things i'd say number one is couple of things i'd say number one is you don't have to wind the clock back you don't have to wind the clock back you don't have to wind the clock back very far very far very far five six million years or so and and and five six million years or so and and and five six million years or so and and and and let it run forwards again and the and let it run forwards again and the and let it run forwards again and the chances of chances of chances of humans as we know them is not humans as we know them is not humans as we know them is not necessarily that high necessarily that high necessarily that high and you know imagine and you know imagine and you know imagine as an alien you find planet earth and as an alien you find planet earth and as an alien you find planet earth and it's got everything apart from humans on it's got everything apart from humans on it's got everything apart from humans on it it's an amazing wonderful marvelous it it's an amazing wonderful marvelous it it's an amazing wonderful marvelous planet but nothing that we would planet but nothing that we would planet but nothing that we would recognize as recognize as recognize as extremely intelligent life and extremely intelligent life and extremely intelligent life and space-faring civilization so when we space-faring civilization so when we space-faring civilization so when we think about aliens we we we're kind of think about aliens we we we're kind of think about aliens we we we're kind of after something like ourselves or after after something like ourselves or after after something like ourselves or after a space-faring civilization we're not a space-faring civilization we're not a space-faring civilization we're not after you know after you know after you know zebras and giraffes and lions and things zebras and giraffes and lions and things zebras and giraffes and lions and things amazing though they are amazing though they are amazing though they are but the but the but the the additional kind of evolutionary the additional kind of evolutionary the additional kind of evolutionary steps to go from steps to go from steps to go from large complex mammals monkeys let's say large complex mammals monkeys let's say large complex mammals monkeys let's say to to to to humans to humans to humans doesn't strike me as that longer a doesn't strike me as that longer a doesn't strike me as that longer a distance it's all about the brain and distance it's all about the brain and distance it's all about the brain and where's the where's the brain and where's the where's the brain and where's the where's the brain and morality coming from it seems to me morality coming from it seems to me morality coming from it seems to me to be all about groups human groups and to be all about groups human groups and to be all about groups human groups and interactions between groups the interactions between groups the interactions between groups the collective intelligence of it the yes collective intelligence of it the yes collective intelligence of it the yes the interactions really and there's some the interactions really and there's some the interactions really and there's some there's a guy at ucl uh called mark there's a guy at ucl uh called mark there's a guy at ucl uh called mark thomas who's done a lot of really thomas who's done a lot of really thomas who's done a lot of really beautiful work i think on on this kind

beautiful work i think on on this kind beautiful work i think on on this kind of question so i talk to him every now of question so i talk to him every now of question so i talk to him every now and then so my views are influenced by and then so my views are influenced by and then so my views are influenced by him him him um um um but a lot seems to depend on population but a lot seems to depend on population but a lot seems to depend on population density density density that the more interactions you have that the more interactions you have that the more interactions you have going on between different groups the going on between different groups the going on between different groups the more transfer more transfer more transfer of information if you like between of information if you like between of information if you like between groups groups groups of people moving from one group to of people moving from one group to of people moving from one group to another group almost like lateral gene another group almost like lateral gene another group almost like lateral gene transfer in bacteria transfer in bacteria transfer in bacteria the more expertise you're able to the more expertise you're able to the more expertise you're able to develop and maintain develop and maintain develop and maintain the more the more the more culturally complex your society can culturally complex your society can culturally complex your society can become and groups that have become become and groups that have become become and groups that have become detached detached detached like on easter island for example very like on easter island for example very like on easter island for example very often degenerate in terms of the often degenerate in terms of the often degenerate in terms of the complexity of their civilization is that complexity of their civilization is that complexity of their civilization is that true for complex organisms in general true for complex organisms in general true for complex organisms in general population density is often productive population density is often productive population density is often productive really matters but in human terms really matters but in human terms really matters but in human terms um um um i don't know what the actual factors i don't know what the actual factors i don't know what the actual factors were that were driving a a large brain were that were driving a a large brain were that were driving a a large brain but you know you can you can talk about but you know you can you can talk about but you know you can you can talk about fire you can talk about tool use you can fire you can talk about tool use you can fire you can talk about tool use you can talk about language and none of them talk about language and none of them talk about language and none of them seem to correlate especially well with seem to correlate especially well with seem to correlate especially well with the actual known trajectory of human the actual known trajectory of human the actual known trajectory of human evolution in terms of evolution in terms of evolution in terms of cave art and these kind of things that cave art and these kind of things that cave art and these kind of things that that seems to work much better just with that seems to work much better just with that seems to work much better just with with population density and number of with population density and number of with population density and number of interactions between different groups interactions between different groups interactions between different groups all of which is really all of which is really all of which is really about about about human interactions human human human interactions human human human interactions human human interactions and the complexity of those interactions and the complexity of those interactions and the complexity of those but but but population density is the thing that population density is the thing that population density is the thing that increases the number of interactions but

increases the number of interactions but increases the number of interactions but then there must have been inventions uh forced by that uh forced by that number of interactions that actually led number of interactions that actually led number of interactions that actually led to humans so like richard wrangham to humans so like richard wrangham to humans so like richard wrangham talks about that talks about that talks about that it's basically the beta males had to it's basically the beta males had to it's basically the beta males had to beat up the alpha male so that's what beat up the alpha male so that's what beat up the alpha male so that's what collaboration looks like is they when collaboration looks like is they when collaboration looks like is they when you're living together they don't like you're living together they don't like you're living together they don't like this this this the the the our early ancestors our early ancestors our early ancestors don't like the dictatorial aspect of a don't like the dictatorial aspect of a don't like the dictatorial aspect of a single individual at the top of a tribe single individual at the top of a tribe single individual at the top of a tribe so they uh they they learn to so they uh they they learn to so they uh they they learn to collaborate how to collaborate how to collaborate how to uh basically create a democracy uh of uh basically create a democracy uh of uh basically create a democracy uh of sorts a democracy that prevents sorts a democracy that prevents sorts a democracy that prevents minimizes or lessens the amount of minimizes or lessens the amount of minimizes or lessens the amount of violence which essentially violence which essentially violence which essentially gives strength to the tribe and make the gives strength to the tribe and make the gives strength to the tribe and make the war war war between tribes between tribes between tribes uh versus the dictator i mean i think uh versus the dictator i mean i think uh versus the dictator i mean i think one of the what most wonderful things one of the what most wonderful things one of the what most wonderful things about humans is we're all of those about humans is we're all of those about humans is we're all of those things i mean we are deeply social as a things i mean we are deeply social as a things i mean we are deeply social as a species and we're also deeply selfish species and we're also deeply selfish species and we're also deeply selfish and it seems to me the conflict between and it seems to me the conflict between and it seems to me the conflict between capitalism and communism it's really capitalism and communism it's really capitalism and communism it's really just two aspects of human nature both of just two aspects of human nature both of just two aspects of human nature both of which are both we have both uh and we which are both we have both uh and we which are both we have both uh and we have a constant kind of vying between have a constant kind of vying between have a constant kind of vying between the two sides we really do care about the two sides we really do care about the two sides we really do care about other people beyond our families beyond other people beyond our families beyond other people beyond our families beyond our immediate people we care about our immediate people we care about our immediate people we care about society and the society that we live in society and the society that we live in society and the society that we live in and and you could say that's a you know and and you could say that's a you know and and you could say that's a you know a drawing towards socialism or communism a drawing towards socialism or communism a drawing towards socialism or communism on the other side we really do care on the other side we really do care on the other side we really do care about ourselves we really do care about about ourselves we really do care about about ourselves we really do care about our families about working for something our families about working for something our families about working for something that we gain from and that's the

that we gain from and that's the that we gain from and that's the capitalist side of it they're both capitalist side of it they're both capitalist side of it they're both really deeply ingrained in human nature really deeply ingrained in human nature really deeply ingrained in human nature in terms of violence um and in terms of violence um and in terms of violence um and and interactions between groups yes all and interactions between groups yes all and interactions between groups yes all this dynamic of if you're interacting this dynamic of if you're interacting this dynamic of if you're interacting between groups you can be certain that between groups you can be certain that between groups you can be certain that they're going to be burning each other they're going to be burning each other they're going to be burning each other and all kinds of interact physical and all kinds of interact physical and all kinds of interact physical violent interactions as well which will violent interactions as well which will violent interactions as well which will drive drive drive the kind of cleverness of how do you the kind of cleverness of how do you the kind of cleverness of how do you resist this let's build a tower let's resist this let's build a tower let's resist this let's build a tower let's you know what are we going to do to to you know what are we going to do to to you know what are we going to do to to to to prevent being overrun by those to to prevent being overrun by those to to prevent being overrun by those marauding gangs from over there marauding gangs from over there marauding gangs from over there um and you look you look outside humans um and you look you look outside humans um and you look you look outside humans and you look at chimps and bonnibos and and you look at chimps and bonnibos and and you look at chimps and bonnibos and so on and they're very very different so on and they're very very different so on and they're very very different structures to society chimps tend to structures to society chimps tend to structures to society chimps tend to have an aggressive alpha male type have an aggressive alpha male type have an aggressive alpha male type structure and bonobos are you know they structure and bonobos are you know they structure and bonobos are you know they they there's basically a female society they there's basically a female society they there's basically a female society where the males are predominantly where the males are predominantly where the males are predominantly excluded and only brought in at the excluded and only brought in at the excluded and only brought in at the behest of the female behest of the female behest of the female we have a lot in common with both we have a lot in common with both we have a lot in common with both both of those groups and there's again both of those groups and there's again both of those groups and there's again tension there yeah and uh probably tension there yeah and uh probably tension there yeah and uh probably chimps more violence with bonobos chimps more violence with bonobos chimps more violence with bonobos probably more sex probably more sex probably more sex that's another tension that's another tension that's another tension [Laughter] [Laughter] [Laughter] how serious do i do do we want to be how how serious do i do do we want to be how how serious do i do do we want to be how much fun we want to be uh asking for a much fun we want to be uh asking for a much fun we want to be uh asking for a friend again friend again friend again what do you think happened to what do you think happened to what do you think happened to neanderthals what did we neanderthals what did we neanderthals what did we cheeky humans do to the neanderthals cheeky humans do to the neanderthals cheeky humans do to the neanderthals homo sapiens do you think we murdered homo sapiens do you think we murdered homo sapiens do you think we murdered them was it them was it them was it that how do we murder them how do we that how do we murder them how do we that how do we murder them how do we out-compete them out-compete them out-compete them um um um do we i made them i don't know i mean i do we i made them i don't know i mean i do we i made them i don't know i mean i i think there's unequivocal evidence i think there's unequivocal evidence i think there's unequivocal evidence that we mated with them yeah we always

that we mated with them yeah we always that we mated with them yeah we always try to meet with everything yes pretty try to meet with everything yes pretty try to meet with everything yes pretty much much much there's some interesting the first there's some interesting the first there's some interesting the first sequences that came along were in sequences that came along were in sequences that came along were in mitochondrial dna mitochondrial dna mitochondrial dna and that was back to about 2002 or and that was back to about 2002 or and that was back to about 2002 or thereabouts thereabouts thereabouts what was found was that neanderthal what was found was that neanderthal what was found was that neanderthal mitochondrial dna was very different to mitochondrial dna was very different to mitochondrial dna was very different to human mitochondria that's so interesting human mitochondria that's so interesting human mitochondria that's so interesting you could do a clock on it and it said you could do a clock on it and it said you could do a clock on it and it said the divergent state was about 600 000 the divergent state was about 600 000 the divergent state was about 600 000 years ago or something like that so not years ago or something like that so not years ago or something like that so not so long ago so long ago so long ago um and then the first full genomes were um and then the first full genomes were um and then the first full genomes were secrets maybe 10 years after that secrets maybe 10 years after that secrets maybe 10 years after that and they showed plenty of signs of and they showed plenty of signs of and they showed plenty of signs of mating between so so the mitochondrial mating between so so the mitochondrial mating between so so the mitochondrial dna effectively says no mating dna effectively says no mating dna effectively says no mating and the the nuclear and the the nuclear and the the nuclear genes say yeah lots of mating genes say yeah lots of mating genes say yeah lots of mating um but we don't know is that possible so um but we don't know is that possible so um but we don't know is that possible so can you explain the difference between can you explain the difference between can you explain the difference between mitochondrial cell yes and new uh mitochondrial cell yes and new uh mitochondrial cell yes and new uh nucleus i've talked before about the nucleus i've talked before about the nucleus i've talked before about the mitochondria which are the power packs mitochondria which are the power packs mitochondria which are the power packs in cells these are the paired down in cells these are the paired down in cells these are the paired down control units is that is their dna control units is that is their dna control units is that is their dna so so so it's passed on by the mother only it's passed on by the mother only it's passed on by the mother only and and and in the egg cell we might have half a in the egg cell we might have half a in the egg cell we might have half a million copies of mitochondrial dna million copies of mitochondrial dna million copies of mitochondrial dna there's only 37 genes left there's only 37 genes left there's only 37 genes left and and they do a and and they do a and and they do a it's basically the control unit of it's basically the control unit of it's basically the control unit of energy production that's what is that's energy production that's what is that's energy production that's what is that's what it's doing it's a basic old-school what it's doing it's a basic old-school what it's doing it's a basic old-school machine that does and it's got genes machine that does and it's got genes machine that does and it's got genes that were considered to be effectively that were considered to be effectively that were considered to be effectively trivial because they did they did a a trivial because they did they did a a trivial because they did they did a a very narrowly defined job but they're very narrowly defined job but they're very narrowly defined job but they're not trivial in the sense that that not trivial in the sense that that not trivial in the sense that that narrowly defined job is about narrowly defined job is about narrowly defined job is about everything is being alive yeah um so

everything is being alive yeah um so everything is being alive yeah um so so they're much easier to sequence so they're much easier to sequence so they're much easier to sequence you've got many more copies of these you've got many more copies of these you've got many more copies of these things and you can sequence them very things and you can sequence them very things and you can sequence them very quickly quickly quickly um but the problem is because they go um but the problem is because they go um but the problem is because they go down only the maternal line from mother down only the maternal line from mother down only the maternal line from mother to daughter your mitochondrial dna and to daughter your mitochondrial dna and to daughter your mitochondrial dna and mine is going nowhere doesn't matter any mine is going nowhere doesn't matter any mine is going nowhere doesn't matter any kids we have they get their mother's kids we have they get their mother's kids we have they get their mother's mitochondrial dna mitochondrial dna mitochondrial dna um except in very very rare and strange um except in very very rare and strange um except in very very rare and strange circumstances circumstances circumstances um and so it tells a different story and um and so it tells a different story and um and so it tells a different story and it's not a story which is easy to it's not a story which is easy to it's not a story which is easy to reconcile always reconcile always reconcile always um and and what it seems to suggest to um and and what it seems to suggest to um and and what it seems to suggest to my mind at least is that there was one my mind at least is that there was one my mind at least is that there was one way way way uh traffic of genes probably going from uh traffic of genes probably going from uh traffic of genes probably going from humans into neanderthals rather than the humans into neanderthals rather than the humans into neanderthals rather than the other way around other way around other way around why did the neanderthals disappear i i why did the neanderthals disappear i i why did the neanderthals disappear i i don't know i mean i i suspect that they don't know i mean i i suspect that they don't know i mean i i suspect that they were were were i suspect they were probably less i suspect they were probably less i suspect they were probably less violent less clever violent less clever violent less clever uh less populous uh less populous uh less populous less less less willing to fight i i don't know i mean i willing to fight i i don't know i mean i willing to fight i i don't know i mean i i think it drove them to extinction at i think it drove them to extinction at i think it drove them to extinction at the margins of europe the margins of europe the margins of europe and it's interesting how much if we ran and it's interesting how much if we ran and it's interesting how much if we ran earth over and over again earth over and over again earth over and over again how many of these branches of how many of these branches of how many of these branches of intelligent beings intelligent beings intelligent beings that have that have that have figured out some kind of how to leverage collective intelligence how to leverage collective intelligence which ones of them emerge which ones of which ones of them emerge which ones of which ones of them emerge which ones of them succeed is it the more violent ones them succeed is it the more violent ones them succeed is it the more violent ones is it um is it um is it um uh the more isolated one you know like uh the more isolated one you know like uh the more isolated one you know like what dynamics results in more what dynamics results in more what dynamics results in more productivity and we i suppose we'll productivity and we i suppose we'll productivity and we i suppose we'll never know it's never know it's never know it's the more complex the organism the harder

the more complex the organism the harder the more complex the organism the harder it is to run the experiment in the lab it is to run the experiment in the lab it is to run the experiment in the lab yes yes yes and in some respects maybe it's best if and in some respects maybe it's best if and in some respects maybe it's best if we don't know we don't know we don't know yeah the truth might be very painful yeah the truth might be very painful yeah the truth might be very painful what about if we actually step back what about if we actually step back what about if we actually step back a couple of interesting things that we a couple of interesting things that we a couple of interesting things that we humans do humans do humans do one is object manipulation and one is object manipulation and one is object manipulation and movement movement movement and of course movement was something and of course movement was something and of course movement was something that was done that was done that was done that was another big invention being that was another big invention being that was another big invention being able to move around the environment able to move around the environment able to move around the environment and the other one is and the other one is and the other one is this sensory mechanism how we sense the this sensory mechanism how we sense the this sensory mechanism how we sense the environment one of the coolest high environment one of the coolest high environment one of the coolest high definition ones is vision definition ones is vision definition ones is vision uh how big are those inventions in the uh how big are those inventions in the uh how big are those inventions in the history of history of history of life on earth life on earth life on earth vision movement uh i mean again vision movement uh i mean again vision movement uh i mean again extremely important going back to the extremely important going back to the extremely important going back to the origin of animals the cambrian explosion origin of animals the cambrian explosion origin of animals the cambrian explosion where suddenly you're seeing eyes where suddenly you're seeing eyes where suddenly you're seeing eyes in the fossil record and you can it's in the fossil record and you can it's in the fossil record and you can it's not necessarily again lots of people not necessarily again lots of people not necessarily again lots of people historically have said what use is half historically have said what use is half historically have said what use is half an eye and and an eye and and an eye and and you know you can go in a series of steps you know you can go in a series of steps you know you can go in a series of steps uh from a a light sensitive spot on a uh from a a light sensitive spot on a uh from a a light sensitive spot on a flat flat flat piece of tissue piece of tissue piece of tissue to an eyeball with a lens and so on um to an eyeball with a lens and so on um to an eyeball with a lens and so on um if you assume no more than then i i if you assume no more than then i i if you assume no more than then i i don't remember this this was a specific don't remember this this was a specific don't remember this this was a specific model that i have in mind but it was you model that i have in mind but it was you model that i have in mind but it was you know know know one percent change or half a percent one percent change or half a percent one percent change or half a percent change for each generation how long change for each generation how long change for each generation how long would it take to evolve and high as we would it take to evolve and high as we would it take to evolve and high as we know it and the answer is half a million know it and the answer is half a million know it and the answer is half a million years years years um it doesn't have to take long that's um it doesn't have to take long that's um it doesn't have to take long that's not how evolution works that's not a not how evolution works that's not a not how evolution works that's not a that's not an answer to the question it

that's not an answer to the question it that's not an answer to the question it just shows you can reconstruct the steps just shows you can reconstruct the steps just shows you can reconstruct the steps and you can work out roughly how it can and you can work out roughly how it can and you can work out roughly how it can work work work so it's not that big a deal to evolve an so it's not that big a deal to evolve an so it's not that big a deal to evolve an eye eye eye but once you have one then there's but once you have one then there's but once you have one then there's nowhere to hide and again we're back to nowhere to hide and again we're back to nowhere to hide and again we're back to predator prey relationships where back predator prey relationships where back predator prey relationships where back to all the benefits that being able to to all the benefits that being able to to all the benefits that being able to see brings you and if you think you know see brings you and if you think you know see brings you and if you think you know philosophically what bats are doing with philosophically what bats are doing with philosophically what bats are doing with ecolocation and so on ecolocation and so on ecolocation and so on i have no idea but i suspect that they i have no idea but i suspect that they i have no idea but i suspect that they form an image of the world in pretty form an image of the world in pretty form an image of the world in pretty much the same way that we do it's just a much the same way that we do it's just a much the same way that we do it's just a matter of mental reconstruction so i matter of mental reconstruction so i matter of mental reconstruction so i suppose the other thing about sight suppose the other thing about sight suppose the other thing about sight there are single celled there are single celled there are single celled organisms that have got a lens organisms that have got a lens organisms that have got a lens and a a retina and a and a cornea and so and a a retina and a and a cornea and so and a a retina and a and a cornea and so on basically they've got a camera type on basically they've got a camera type on basically they've got a camera type eye in a single cell they don't have a eye in a single cell they don't have a eye in a single cell they don't have a brain brain brain um um um what they understand about their world what they understand about their world what they understand about their world is impossible to say but but they're is impossible to say but but they're is impossible to say but but they're capable of coming up with with the same capable of coming up with with the same capable of coming up with with the same structures to do so so i suppose then structures to do so so i suppose then structures to do so so i suppose then is that once you've got things like eyes is that once you've got things like eyes is that once you've got things like eyes then you have a big driving pressure on then you have a big driving pressure on then you have a big driving pressure on the central nervous system to figure out the central nervous system to figure out the central nervous system to figure out what it all means and we come around to what it all means and we come around to what it all means and we come around to your other point about manipulation your other point about manipulation your other point about manipulation sensory input and so on about you now sensory input and so on about you now sensory input and so on about you now now you now you now you you you you have a huge requirement to you you you have a huge requirement to you you you have a huge requirement to understand what your environment is and understand what your environment is and understand what your environment is and what it means and how it reacts and how what it means and how it reacts and how what it means and how it reacts and how you should run away and where you should you should run away and where you should you should run away and where you should stay put stay put stay put actually on that point let me i don't actually on that point let me i don't actually on that point let me i don't know if you know the work of donald know if you know the work of donald know if you know the work of donald hoffman hoffman hoffman who talks about who talks about who talks about who uses the argument who uses the argument who uses the argument um

um um the mechanism of evolution to say that the mechanism of evolution to say that the mechanism of evolution to say that there's not necessarily a there's not necessarily a there's not necessarily a strong evolutionary value value to seeing the world as it is to seeing the world as it is to seeing the world as it is so objective reality that our perception so objective reality that our perception so objective reality that our perception actually actually actually is very different from what's is very different from what's is very different from what's objectively real objectively real objectively real we're living inside an illusion and we're living inside an illusion and we're living inside an illusion and we're basically the entire we're basically the entire we're basically the entire uh the entire set of species on earth i uh the entire set of species on earth i uh the entire set of species on earth i think i i guess are competing in a space think i i guess are competing in a space think i i guess are competing in a space that's an illusion that's distinct from that's an illusion that's distinct from that's an illusion that's distinct from this far away from physical reality as this far away from physical reality as this far away from physical reality as it is as defined by physics i'm not sure it is as defined by physics i'm not sure it is as defined by physics i'm not sure it's an illusion so much as a bubble i it's an illusion so much as a bubble i it's an illusion so much as a bubble i mean we we have a sensory input which is mean we we have a sensory input which is mean we we have a sensory input which is a fraction of what we could have a a fraction of what we could have a a fraction of what we could have a sensory input on um and we interpret it sensory input on um and we interpret it sensory input on um and we interpret it in terms of what's useful for us to know in terms of what's useful for us to know in terms of what's useful for us to know to stay alive so yes it's an illusion in to stay alive so yes it's an illusion in to stay alive so yes it's an illusion in that sense but that sense but that sense but the tree is physically there and if you the tree is physically there and if you the tree is physically there and if you walk into that tree you you know that walk into that tree you you know that walk into that tree you you know that there is it's not purely a delusion there is it's not purely a delusion there is it's not purely a delusion there's some physical reality to it so there's some physical reality to it so there's some physical reality to it so it's a it's a uh it's a it's a uh it's a it's a uh sensory slice into reality as it is but sensory slice into reality as it is but sensory slice into reality as it is but because it's just a slice you're missing because it's just a slice you're missing because it's just a slice you're missing a big picture but he says that that a big picture but he says that that a big picture but he says that that slice doesn't necessarily need to be a slice doesn't necessarily need to be a slice doesn't necessarily need to be a slice slice slice it could be a complete fabrication it could be a complete fabrication it could be a complete fabrication that's just consistent amongst the that's just consistent amongst the that's just consistent amongst the species which is an interesting or at species which is an interesting or at species which is an interesting or at least it's a humbling least it's a humbling least it's a humbling realization that our perception realization that our perception realization that our perception is limited and our cognitive abilities is limited and our cognitive abilities is limited and our cognitive abilities are limited

are limited are limited and and and at least to me at least to me at least to me it's argument from evolution i don't it's argument from evolution i don't it's argument from evolution i don't know know know how much how how strong that is as an how much how how strong that is as an how much how how strong that is as an argument argument argument but but but i do think that life can exist i do think that life can exist i do think that life can exist in the mind in the mind in the mind yes in the same way that you can do a yes in the same way that you can do a yes in the same way that you can do a virtual reality video game and you can virtual reality video game and you can virtual reality video game and you can have a vibrant life inside that place have a vibrant life inside that place have a vibrant life inside that place and that place is not real in some sense and that place is not real in some sense and that place is not real in some sense but you could still have a vibe all the but you could still have a vibe all the but you could still have a vibe all the same forces of evolution all the same same forces of evolution all the same same forces of evolution all the same competition the dynamics of uh between competition the dynamics of uh between competition the dynamics of uh between humans you can have humans you can have humans you can have but i don't know but i don't know but i don't know if um if um if um i don't know if there's evidence for i don't know if there's evidence for i don't know if there's evidence for that being the thing that happened on that being the thing that happened on that being the thing that happened on earth it seems that earth i think in earth it seems that earth i think in earth it seems that earth i think in either environment i wouldn't deny that either environment i wouldn't deny that either environment i wouldn't deny that you could have exactly the world that you could have exactly the world that you could have exactly the world that you talk about and it would be very you talk about and it would be very you talk about and it would be very difficult to uh you know the the idea um difficult to uh you know the the idea um difficult to uh you know the the idea um in in matrix movies and so on that the in in matrix movies and so on that the in in matrix movies and so on that the whole world is completely whole world is completely whole world is completely a construction um a construction um a construction um and we're fundamentally deluded it's and we're fundamentally deluded it's and we're fundamentally deluded it's it's difficult to say that's impossible it's difficult to say that's impossible it's difficult to say that's impossible or couldn't happen or or couldn't happen or or couldn't happen or and certainly we construct in our minds and certainly we construct in our minds and certainly we construct in our minds what the outside world is but we do it what the outside world is but we do it what the outside world is but we do it on input and that input on input and that input on input and that input i i would hesitate to say it's not real i i would hesitate to say it's not real i i would hesitate to say it's not real um because it's precisely how we do um because it's precisely how we do um because it's precisely how we do understand the world we you know we have understand the world we you know we have understand the world we you know we have eyes but if you keep someone in eyes but if you keep someone in eyes but if you keep someone in apparently this kind of thing happens apparently this kind of thing happens apparently this kind of thing happens someone kept in a dark room for five someone kept in a dark room for five someone kept in a dark room for five years or something like that and they years or something like that and they years or something like that and they never see properly again because they've

never see properly again because they've never see properly again because they've the the the neural wiring that underpins the the the neural wiring that underpins the the the neural wiring that underpins how we interpret vision never developed how we interpret vision never developed how we interpret vision never developed you know you need when you watch a child you know you need when you watch a child you know you need when you watch a child develop it walks right it walks into a develop it walks right it walks into a develop it walks right it walks into a table it bangs its head on the table and table it bangs its head on the table and table it bangs its head on the table and it hurts uh and it hurts uh and it hurts uh and now you've got two inputs you've got one now you've got two inputs you've got one now you've got two inputs you've got one pane from this sharp edge and number two pane from this sharp edge and number two pane from this sharp edge and number two you probably you've touched it and you probably you've touched it and you probably you've touched it and realized it's there it's a sharp edge realized it's there it's a sharp edge realized it's there it's a sharp edge and you've got the visual input and you and you've got the visual input and you and you've got the visual input and you put the three things together and think put the three things together and think put the three things together and think i don't want to walk into a table again i don't want to walk into a table again i don't want to walk into a table again so you're learning and and it's a so you're learning and and it's a so you're learning and and it's a limited reality but it's a true reality limited reality but it's a true reality limited reality but it's a true reality and if you don't learn that properly and if you don't learn that properly and if you don't learn that properly then you will get eaten you will get hit then you will get eaten you will get hit then you will get eaten you will get hit by a bus you will not survive by a bus you will not survive by a bus you will not survive uh and same if you if you're in in in uh and same if you if you're in in in uh and same if you if you're in in in some kind of uh some kind of uh some kind of uh let's say computer construction of let's say computer construction of let's say computer construction of reality i'm not in my ground here but if reality i'm not in my ground here but if reality i'm not in my ground here but if if you construct the laws that this is if you construct the laws that this is if you construct the laws that this is what reality is inside in inside this what reality is inside in inside this what reality is inside in inside this then you play by those laws yeah well i then you play by those laws yeah well i then you play by those laws yeah well i mean as long as the laws are consistent mean as long as the laws are consistent mean as long as the laws are consistent so just like you said in the lab so just like you said in the lab so just like you said in the lab the interesting thing about the the interesting thing about the the interesting thing about the simulation question yes it's hard to simulation question yes it's hard to simulation question yes it's hard to know if we're living inside a simulation know if we're living inside a simulation know if we're living inside a simulation but also yes it's possible to do these but also yes it's possible to do these but also yes it's possible to do these kinds of experiments in the lab now kinds of experiments in the lab now kinds of experiments in the lab now more and more to me the interesting more and more to me the interesting more and more to me the interesting question is question is question is how how how realistic does a virtual reality game realistic does a virtual reality game realistic does a virtual reality game need to be for us to not be able to tell need to be for us to not be able to tell need to be for us to not be able to tell the difference the difference the difference a more interesting question to me is a more interesting question to me is a more interesting question to me is how realistic how realistic how realistic or or or interesting does the virtual reality interesting does the virtual reality interesting does the virtual reality world need to be in order for us to want world need to be in order for us to want world need to be in order for us to want to stay there forever or much longer

to stay there forever or much longer to stay there forever or much longer than than than physical reality prefer that place and physical reality prefer that place and physical reality prefer that place and also prefer it not as we prefer also prefer it not as we prefer also prefer it not as we prefer uh hard drugs but prefer in a deep uh hard drugs but prefer in a deep uh hard drugs but prefer in a deep meaningful way in the way we meaningful way in the way we meaningful way in the way we we enjoy we enjoy we enjoy i mean i suppose the issue with the i mean i suppose the issue with the i mean i suppose the issue with the matrix i i imagine that it's possible to matrix i i imagine that it's possible to matrix i i imagine that it's possible to to delude the mind sufficiently that you to delude the mind sufficiently that you to delude the mind sufficiently that you genuinely in that way do think that you genuinely in that way do think that you genuinely in that way do think that you are are are interacting with the real world when in interacting with the real world when in interacting with the real world when in fact the whole thing is a simulation fact the whole thing is a simulation fact the whole thing is a simulation how good does the simulation need to be how good does the simulation need to be how good does the simulation need to be to be able to do that well it needs to to be able to do that well it needs to to be able to do that well it needs to convince you that all your sensory input convince you that all your sensory input convince you that all your sensory input is correct and accurate and and and is correct and accurate and and and is correct and accurate and and and joins up and makes sense now that joins up and makes sense now that joins up and makes sense now that sensory input is not something that sensory input is not something that sensory input is not something that we're born with we're born with a sense we're born with we're born with a sense we're born with we're born with a sense of touch we're born with eyes and so but of touch we're born with eyes and so but of touch we're born with eyes and so but we don't know how to use them we don't we don't know how to use them we don't we don't know how to use them we don't know what to make of them know what to make of them know what to make of them we go around we bump into trees we cry a we go around we bump into trees we cry a we go around we bump into trees we cry a lot we're in pain a lot we you know lot we're in pain a lot we you know lot we're in pain a lot we you know we're we're basically booting up the we're we're basically booting up the we're we're basically booting up the system so that it it can make head a system so that it it can make head a system so that it it can make head a tail of the sensory input that it's tail of the sensory input that it's tail of the sensory input that it's getting and that sensory input's not getting and that sensory input's not getting and that sensory input's not just a one-way flux of things it's also just a one-way flux of things it's also just a one-way flux of things it's also you have to walk into things you have to you have to walk into things you have to you have to walk into things you have to hear things you have to put it together hear things you have to put it together hear things you have to put it together now if you've got just babies now if you've got just babies now if you've got just babies in in the matrix who are slotted into in in the matrix who are slotted into in in the matrix who are slotted into this i don't think they have that kind this i don't think they have that kind this i don't think they have that kind of sensory input i don't think they of sensory input i don't think they of sensory input i don't think they would have any way to make sense of new would have any way to make sense of new would have any way to make sense of new york york york uh as a world that they're part of uh as a world that they're part of uh as a world that they're part of the brain is just not developed in that the brain is just not developed in that the brain is just not developed in that way so i can't make sense of new york in way so i can't make sense of new york in way so i can't make sense of new york in this physical reality either but yeah i

this physical reality either but yeah i this physical reality either but yeah i mean but you said pain and walking into mean but you said pain and walking into mean but you said pain and walking into things well you can create a pain signal things well you can create a pain signal things well you can create a pain signal and as long as it's consistent and as long as it's consistent and as long as it's consistent that certain things result in pain you that certain things result in pain you that certain things result in pain you could start to construct a reality could start to construct a reality could start to construct a reality there's some maybe maybe you disagree there's some maybe maybe you disagree there's some maybe maybe you disagree with this but i think we are born with this but i think we are born with this but i think we are born almost with a desire to be convinced by almost with a desire to be convinced by almost with a desire to be convinced by our reality our reality our reality like a like a like a desire to make sense of our reality oh desire to make sense of our reality oh desire to make sense of our reality oh i'm sure we are yes okay so there's an i'm sure we are yes okay so there's an i'm sure we are yes okay so there's an imperative so whatever that reality is imperative so whatever that reality is imperative so whatever that reality is given to us like the table hurts fire's given to us like the table hurts fire's given to us like the table hurts fire's hot yeah i think hot yeah i think hot yeah i think we want to be deluded we want to be deluded we want to be deluded in a sense that we want to make a simple in a sense that we want to make a simple in a sense that we want to make a simple like einstein simple theory of the thing like einstein simple theory of the thing like einstein simple theory of the thing around us we want that simplicity and so around us we want that simplicity and so around us we want that simplicity and so um maybe um maybe um maybe the hunger for the simplicity is the the hunger for the simplicity is the the hunger for the simplicity is the thing that could be used to construct a thing that could be used to construct a thing that could be used to construct a pretty dumb simulation pretty dumb simulation pretty dumb simulation that that tricks us so maybe tricking that that tricks us so maybe tricking that that tricks us so maybe tricking humans doesn't require building a humans doesn't require building a humans doesn't require building a universe universe universe no i i don't i mean i this is not what i no i i don't i mean i this is not what i no i i don't i mean i this is not what i work on so i don't know how close to it work on so i don't know how close to it work on so i don't know how close to it we are anyone working but i i agree with we are anyone working but i i agree with we are anyone working but i i agree with you but yeah i'm not sure that it's you but yeah i'm not sure that it's you but yeah i'm not sure that it's a morally justifiable thing to do but a morally justifiable thing to do but a morally justifiable thing to do but it's it's it's it's it's it's is it possible in principle is it possible in principle is it possible in principle um i think it'll be very difficult um i think it'll be very difficult um i think it'll be very difficult but i don't see why in principle it but i don't see why in principle it but i don't see why in principle it wouldn't be possible and i agree with wouldn't be possible and i agree with wouldn't be possible and i agree with you that it's it's um that we try to you that it's it's um that we try to you that it's it's um that we try to understand the world we try to integrate understand the world we try to integrate understand the world we try to integrate the sensory inputs that we have and we the sensory inputs that we have and we the sensory inputs that we have and we try to come up with a hypothesis that try to come up with a hypothesis that try to come up with a hypothesis that explains what's going on explains what's going on explains what's going on i think though i think though i think though that we have

that we have that we have huge input from huge input from huge input from the social context that we're in we the social context that we're in we the social context that we're in we don't do it by ourselves we don't kind don't do it by ourselves we don't kind don't do it by ourselves we don't kind of blunder around in a universe by of blunder around in a universe by of blunder around in a universe by ourself and understand the whole thing ourself and understand the whole thing ourself and understand the whole thing we're told by the people around us uh we're told by the people around us uh we're told by the people around us uh what things are and what they do and what things are and what they do and what things are and what they do and that you know language is coming in here that you know language is coming in here that you know language is coming in here and so on so and so on so and so on so it would have to be an extremely it would have to be an extremely it would have to be an extremely impressive simulation to simulate all of impressive simulation to simulate all of impressive simulation to simulate all of that that that yeah simulate all of that including the yeah simulate all of that including the yeah simulate all of that including the social construct this the the thing the social construct this the the thing the social construct this the the thing the the spread of ideas and the the the the spread of ideas and the the the the spread of ideas and the the the exchange of ideas i don't know and but exchange of ideas i don't know and but exchange of ideas i don't know and but those questions are really important to those questions are really important to those questions are really important to understand as we understand as we understand as we become more and more digital creatures become more and more digital creatures become more and more digital creatures it seems like the next step of evolution it seems like the next step of evolution it seems like the next step of evolution is us becoming is us becoming is us becoming partial all the same mechanisms we've partial all the same mechanisms we've partial all the same mechanisms we've talked about talked about talked about are becoming more and more plugged in are becoming more and more plugged in are becoming more and more plugged in into the machine into the machine into the machine we're becoming cyborgs we're becoming cyborgs we're becoming cyborgs and there's an interesting interplay and there's an interesting interplay and there's an interesting interplay between wires and biology between wires and biology between wires and biology um um um you know zeros and ones and the you know zeros and ones and the you know zeros and ones and the biological systems and i don't think biological systems and i don't think biological systems and i don't think you can just you can just you can just i don't think we'll have the luxury to i don't think we'll have the luxury to i don't think we'll have the luxury to see humans as disjoint from the see humans as disjoint from the see humans as disjoint from the technology we've created for much longer technology we've created for much longer technology we've created for much longer we are in organisms that's um we are in organisms that's um we are in organisms that's um yeah yeah yeah i mean i i mean i i mean i agree with you agree with you agree with you but but but we come really with this to we come really with this to we come really with this to consciousness yes and is there a consciousness yes and is there a consciousness yes and is there a distinction there because what you're distinction there because what you're distinction there because what you're saying the natural end point says we are saying the natural end point says we are saying the natural end point says we are indistinguishable that if you are indistinguishable that if you are indistinguishable that if you are capable of building capable of building capable of building a

a a an ai an ai an ai which is sufficiently close and similar which is sufficiently close and similar which is sufficiently close and similar that we merge with it then then that we merge with it then then that we merge with it then then to all intents and purposes that ai is to all intents and purposes that ai is to all intents and purposes that ai is conscious as we know it conscious as we know it conscious as we know it um um um and i don't and i don't and i don't i don't have a strong view but i have a i don't have a strong view but i have a i don't have a strong view but i have a view view view um um um and i i wrote about it in the epilogue and i i wrote about it in the epilogue and i i wrote about it in the epilogue to my last book because 10 to my last book because 10 to my last book because 10 years ago i i years ago i i years ago i i wrote a chapter in in a book called life wrote a chapter in in a book called life wrote a chapter in in a book called life ascending about consciousness ascending about consciousness ascending about consciousness and the subtitle of life ascending was and the subtitle of life ascending was and the subtitle of life ascending was was the ten great inventions of was the ten great inventions of was the ten great inventions of evolution and i couldn't possibly write evolution and i couldn't possibly write evolution and i couldn't possibly write a book with a subtitle like that that a book with a subtitle like that that a book with a subtitle like that that did not include consciousness did not include consciousness did not include consciousness and specifically consciousness uh and specifically consciousness uh and specifically consciousness uh as one of the great inventions as one of the great inventions as one of the great inventions and it was in part because i was just and it was in part because i was just and it was in part because i was just curious to know more and i read more for curious to know more and i read more for curious to know more and i read more for that chapter i never worked on it but that chapter i never worked on it but that chapter i never worked on it but i've always how can anyone not be i've always how can anyone not be i've always how can anyone not be interested in the question interested in the question interested in the question um and i was left with the feeling that um and i was left with the feeling that um and i was left with the feeling that hey nobody knows and b there are two hey nobody knows and b there are two hey nobody knows and b there are two main main main schools of thought out there schools of thought out there schools of thought out there with a big kind of a skew in with a big kind of a skew in with a big kind of a skew in distribution one of them says oh it's a distribution one of them says oh it's a distribution one of them says oh it's a property of matter there's an unknown property of matter there's an unknown property of matter there's an unknown law of physics law of physics law of physics pan psychism everything is conscious the pan psychism everything is conscious the pan psychism everything is conscious the sun is conscious it's just a matter or a sun is conscious it's just a matter or a sun is conscious it's just a matter or a rock is conscious it's just a matter of rock is conscious it's just a matter of rock is conscious it's just a matter of how much how much how much and i find that very unpersuasive um i and i find that very unpersuasive um i and i find that very unpersuasive um i can't say that it's wrong it's just that can't say that it's wrong it's just that can't say that it's wrong it's just that i think we somehow can tell the i think we somehow can tell the i think we somehow can tell the difference between something that's difference between something that's difference between something that's living and something that's not living and something that's not living and something that's not and then the other the other end is it's

and then the other the other end is it's and then the other the other end is it's a it's an emergent property of a very a it's an emergent property of a very a it's an emergent property of a very complex central nervous system complex central nervous system complex central nervous system um and um and um and i am i am i am i never quite understand what people i never quite understand what people i never quite understand what people mean by words like emergence i mean mean by words like emergence i mean mean by words like emergence i mean there are genuine examples but i think there are genuine examples but i think there are genuine examples but i think we very often tend to we very often tend to we very often tend to um use it to um use it to um use it to to plaster over uh ignorance to plaster over uh ignorance to plaster over uh ignorance as a biochemist the question for me then as a biochemist the question for me then as a biochemist the question for me then was okay it's a it's a concoction of a was okay it's a it's a concoction of a was okay it's a it's a concoction of a central nervous system central nervous system central nervous system a depolarizing neuron gives rise to a a depolarizing neuron gives rise to a a depolarizing neuron gives rise to a feeling to a feeling of pain or to a feeling to a feeling of pain or to a feeling to a feeling of pain or to a feeling of love feeling of love feeling of love or or or anger or whatever it may be anger or whatever it may be anger or whatever it may be so what is then a feeling in biophysical so what is then a feeling in biophysical so what is then a feeling in biophysical terms in the central nervous system terms in the central nervous system terms in the central nervous system which bit of the wiring gives rise to which bit of the wiring gives rise to which bit of the wiring gives rise to and i i've never seen anyone answer that and i i've never seen anyone answer that and i i've never seen anyone answer that question you know question you know question you know in a way that makes sense to me and in a way that makes sense to me and in a way that makes sense to me and that's an important question to answer that's an important question to answer that's an important question to answer i think if we want to understand i think if we want to understand i think if we want to understand consciousness that's the only question consciousness that's the only question consciousness that's the only question to answer because i you know i certainly to answer because i you know i certainly to answer because i you know i certainly a an ai is capable of out thinking and a an ai is capable of out thinking and a an ai is capable of out thinking and it's only a matter of time maybe it's it's only a matter of time maybe it's it's only a matter of time maybe it's already happened in terms of just already happened in terms of just already happened in terms of just information processing and computational information processing and computational information processing and computational skill i don't think we have any problem skill i don't think we have any problem skill i don't think we have any problem in designing in designing in designing a mind which is at least the equal of a mind which is at least the equal of a mind which is at least the equal of the human mind the human mind the human mind but in terms of what we value the most but in terms of what we value the most but in terms of what we value the most as humans which is to say our feelings as humans which is to say our feelings as humans which is to say our feelings our emotions our our emotions our our emotions our our our our sense of what the world is in a in a

sense of what the world is in a in a sense of what the world is in a in a very personal way very personal way very personal way that i think means as much or more to that i think means as much or more to that i think means as much or more to people than their information processing people than their information processing people than their information processing and that's where i and that's where i and that's where i don't think that ai necessarily will don't think that ai necessarily will don't think that ai necessarily will become conscious because become conscious because become conscious because i think it's the property of life well i think it's the property of life well i think it's the property of life well let's talk about it more you're an let's talk about it more you're an let's talk about it more you're an incredible writer one of my favorite incredible writer one of my favorite incredible writer one of my favorite writers so let me read writers so let me read writers so let me read from your latest book transformers what from your latest book transformers what from your latest book transformers what you write about consciousness you write about consciousness you write about consciousness i think therefore i am said descartes i think therefore i am said descartes i think therefore i am said descartes is one of the most celebrated lines ever is one of the most celebrated lines ever is one of the most celebrated lines ever written written written but what am i exactly but what am i exactly but what am i exactly and artificial intelligence can think and artificial intelligence can think and artificial intelligence can think too by definition and therefore is too by definition and therefore is too by definition and therefore is yet few of us could agree whether ai is yet few of us could agree whether ai is yet few of us could agree whether ai is capable in principle of anything capable in principle of anything capable in principle of anything resembling human emotions of love or resembling human emotions of love or resembling human emotions of love or hate hate hate fear and joy fear and joy fear and joy of spiritual yearnings of spiritual yearnings of spiritual yearnings for oneness or oblivion or corporeal for oneness or oblivion or corporeal for oneness or oblivion or corporeal pangs of thirst and hunger pangs of thirst and hunger pangs of thirst and hunger the problem is we don't know what the problem is we don't know what the problem is we don't know what emotions are as you were saying emotions are as you were saying emotions are as you were saying what is the feeling in physical terms what is the feeling in physical terms what is the feeling in physical terms how does a discharging neuron give rise how does a discharging neuron give rise how does a discharging neuron give rise to a feeling of anything at all to a feeling of anything at all to a feeling of anything at all this is the heart problem of this is the heart problem of this is the heart problem of consciousness consciousness consciousness the seeming duality of mind and matter the seeming duality of mind and matter the seeming duality of mind and matter the physical makeup of our innermost the physical makeup of our innermost the physical makeup of our innermost self self self we can understand in principle how an we can understand in principle how an we can understand in principle how an extremely sophisticated parallel extremely sophisticated parallel extremely sophisticated parallel processing system could be capable of processing system could be capable of processing system could be capable of wonderous feasts of intelligence but wonderous feasts of intelligence but wonderous feasts of intelligence but we can't answer in principle whether we can't answer in principle whether we can't answer in principle whether such a supreme intelligence would such a supreme intelligence would such a supreme intelligence would experience joy or melancholy what is the

experience joy or melancholy what is the experience joy or melancholy what is the quantum of solace quantum of solace quantum of solace i i i speaking to the question of emergence speaking to the question of emergence speaking to the question of emergence you know there's just technical um you know there's just technical um you know there's just technical um uh uh uh there's a there's an excellent paper on there's a there's an excellent paper on there's a there's an excellent paper on this uh recently about this uh recently about this uh recently about the um this kind of face transition the um this kind of face transition the um this kind of face transition emergence of performance in neural emergence of performance in neural emergence of performance in neural networks on the networks on the networks on the problem of nlp natural language problem of nlp natural language problem of nlp natural language processing so language models there processing so language models there processing so language models there seems to be seems to be seems to be this question of size this question of size this question of size at some point at some point at some point there is a phase transition as you grow there is a phase transition as you grow there is a phase transition as you grow the size of the neural network so the the size of the neural network so the the size of the neural network so the question is question is question is this is sort of somewhat of a technical this is sort of somewhat of a technical this is sort of somewhat of a technical question that you can philosophize over question that you can philosophize over question that you can philosophize over the technical question is is there a the technical question is is there a the technical question is is there a size of a neural network that starts to size of a neural network that starts to size of a neural network that starts to be able to form be able to form be able to form the kind of representations that can the kind of representations that can the kind of representations that can capture a language and therefore be able capture a language and therefore be able capture a language and therefore be able to to to um not just language but linguistically um not just language but linguistically um not just language but linguistically capture knowledge that's sufficient to capture knowledge that's sufficient to capture knowledge that's sufficient to solve a lot of problems solve a lot of problems solve a lot of problems in language like be able to have a in language like be able to have a in language like be able to have a conversation and there seems to be not a conversation and there seems to be not a conversation and there seems to be not a gradual increase but a face transition gradual increase but a face transition gradual increase but a face transition and we in the they're trying to and we in the they're trying to and we in the they're trying to construct the science of where that is construct the science of where that is construct the science of where that is like what is the good size of a neural like what is the good size of a neural like what is the good size of a neural network and why does such a face network and why does such a face network and why does such a face transition happen anyway that that sort transition happen anyway that that sort transition happen anyway that that sort of points to emergence that there of points to emergence that there of points to emergence that there there could be there could be there could be stages where stages where stages where a thing goes from being oh you're a thing goes from being oh you're a thing goes from being oh you're you're very intelligent toaster

you're very intelligent toaster you're very intelligent toaster to a toaster to a toaster to a toaster that's feeling sad today and turns away that's feeling sad today and turns away that's feeling sad today and turns away and looks out and looks out and looks out um out the window um out the window um out the window sighing having an existential crisis sighing having an existential crisis sighing having an existential crisis thinking you're marvin the paranoid thinking you're marvin the paranoid thinking you're marvin the paranoid android is that well no marvin is android is that well no marvin is android is that well no marvin is simplistic because marvin is just cranky simplistic because marvin is just cranky simplistic because marvin is just cranky yes yes yes uh it's so easily programmed yeah easily uh it's so easily programmed yeah easily uh it's so easily programmed yeah easily programmed non-stop existential crisis programmed non-stop existential crisis programmed non-stop existential crisis you're almost basically uh what is notes you're almost basically uh what is notes you're almost basically uh what is notes from underground but dusty like just from underground but dusty like just from underground but dusty like just just constantly complaining about life just constantly complaining about life just constantly complaining about life no they're no they're no they're capturing the full capturing the full capturing the full rollercoaster of human emotion the rollercoaster of human emotion the rollercoaster of human emotion the excitement the bliss the connection excitement the bliss the connection excitement the bliss the connection um the empathy and all that kind of um the empathy and all that kind of um the empathy and all that kind of stuff and then the selfishness stuff and then the selfishness stuff and then the selfishness the the anger the the anger the the anger the the depression all that kind of the the depression all that kind of the the depression all that kind of stuff the capturing all of that stuff the capturing all of that stuff the capturing all of that and be able to experience it deeply like and be able to experience it deeply like and be able to experience it deeply like it's the most important it's the most important it's the most important thing you could possibly experience thing you could possibly experience thing you could possibly experience today the highest highs the lowest lows today the highest highs the lowest lows today the highest highs the lowest lows this is it my life will be over this this is it my life will be over this this is it my life will be over this i cannot possibly go on that feeling and i cannot possibly go on that feeling and i cannot possibly go on that feeling and then like after a nap then like after a nap then like after a nap you're feeling amazing you're feeling amazing you're feeling amazing that might be something that emerges so that might be something that emerges so that might be something that emerges so why would a nap why would a nap why would a nap make make make an ai being feel better the the first of all we don't know that for a first of all we don't know that for a first of all we don't know that for a human either right but we do know that human either right but we do know that human either right but we do know that that's actually true for many people that's actually true for many people that's actually true for many people much of the time you may be depressed

much of the time you may be depressed much of the time you may be depressed when you do in fact feel better so when you do in fact feel better so when you do in fact feel better so oh you are actually asking the technical oh you are actually asking the technical oh you are actually asking the technical question there is there uh so that's a question there is there uh so that's a question there is there uh so that's a very there's a biological answer to that very there's a biological answer to that very there's a biological answer to that and so the question is whether ai needs and so the question is whether ai needs and so the question is whether ai needs to have the same kind of attachment to to have the same kind of attachment to to have the same kind of attachment to its body and bodily function and its body and bodily function and its body and bodily function and preservation preservation preservation of the brain's successful function of the brain's successful function of the brain's successful function of of of self-preservation essentially in some self-preservation essentially in some self-preservation essentially in some deep biological sense deep biological sense deep biological sense i mean i to my mind it comes back round i mean i to my mind it comes back round i mean i to my mind it comes back round to the problem we were talking about to the problem we were talking about to the problem we were talking about before about simulations and sensory before about simulations and sensory before about simulations and sensory input and learning what all of this input and learning what all of this input and learning what all of this stuff means stuff means stuff means and life and death and life and death and life and death um um um that that biology unlike society has a that that biology unlike society has a that that biology unlike society has a death penalty over everything and death penalty over everything and death penalty over everything and natural selection works on that death natural selection works on that death natural selection works on that death penalty that if you make this decision wrongly decision wrongly you die and and the next generation is represented by the next generation is represented by the next generation is represented by beings that beings that beings that made a slightly different decision made a slightly different decision made a slightly different decision on balance on balance on balance um um um and that is something that's and that is something that's and that is something that's intrinsically difficult to simulate in all this difficult to simulate in all this richness i i would say richness i i would say richness i i would say um um um so so what is death in all its richness death in all its richness yes the our relationship with death yes the our relationship with death yes the our relationship with death or or or the whole of it so which when or or or the whole of it so which when or or or the whole of it so which when you say richness of course you say richness of course you say richness of course there's a lot in that yeah which is hard

there's a lot in that yeah which is hard there's a lot in that yeah which is hard to simulate to simulate to simulate what what's the what's part of the what what's the what's part of the what what's the what's part of the richness that's hard to simulate richness that's hard to simulate richness that's hard to simulate uh i suppose the uh i suppose the uh i suppose the complexity of the environment and your complexity of the environment and your complexity of the environment and your position in that or the position of an position in that or the position of an position in that or the position of an organism in that environment in the full organism in that environment in the full organism in that environment in the full richness of that environment over its richness of that environment over its richness of that environment over its entire life over multiple generations entire life over multiple generations entire life over multiple generations with changes in gene with changes in gene with changes in gene sequence over those generations so sequence over those generations so sequence over those generations so slight changes in the makeup of those slight changes in the makeup of those slight changes in the makeup of those individuals over generations but if you individuals over generations but if you individuals over generations but if you take it back to the level of single take it back to the level of single take it back to the level of single cells um which i do in in in the book cells um which i do in in in the book cells um which i do in in in the book and and ask how do and and ask how do and and ask how do how how does a single cell how how does a single cell how how does a single cell in effect know it exists as an unit as in effect know it exists as an unit as in effect know it exists as an unit as an entity i mean no in inverted commas an entity i mean no in inverted commas an entity i mean no in inverted commas obviously it doesn't know obviously it doesn't know obviously it doesn't know anything anything anything but it acts as a unit and it acts with but it acts as a unit and it acts with but it acts as a unit and it acts with astonishing astonishing astonishing precision as a unit precision as a unit precision as a unit and i had suggested that that's linked and i had suggested that that's linked and i had suggested that that's linked to the electrical fields on on the to the electrical fields on on the to the electrical fields on on the membranes themselves and that they give membranes themselves and that they give membranes themselves and that they give some indication of how am i doing in some indication of how am i doing in some indication of how am i doing in relation to my environment as a kind of relation to my environment as a kind of relation to my environment as a kind of real-time feedback on the world real-time feedback on the world real-time feedback on the world and and and this is something physical this is something physical this is something physical which can be which can be which can be selected over generations that if you selected over generations that if you selected over generations that if you are are are if you get this wrong if you get this wrong if you get this wrong um um um it's linked with this set of it's linked with this set of it's linked with this set of circumstances that i've just circumstances that i've just circumstances that i've just as an individual as an individual as an individual i have a moment of blind panic and run i have a moment of blind panic and run i have a moment of blind panic and run um as a bacterium or something you have um as a bacterium or something you have um as a bacterium or something you have a you know some electrical discharge

a you know some electrical discharge a you know some electrical discharge that says blind panic and it it runs that says blind panic and it it runs that says blind panic and it it runs whatever it may be and you associate whatever it may be and you associate whatever it may be and you associate over generations multiple generations over generations multiple generations over generations multiple generations that this electrical phase that i'm in that this electrical phase that i'm in that this electrical phase that i'm in now is associated with now is associated with now is associated with a response like that and it's easy to a response like that and it's easy to a response like that and it's easy to see how feelings come in through see how feelings come in through see how feelings come in through through the back door almost with with through the back door almost with with through the back door almost with with that that kind of that that kind of that that kind of um um um giving real-time feedback on your giving real-time feedback on your giving real-time feedback on your position in the world in relation to how position in the world in relation to how position in the world in relation to how how am i doing and then you you how am i doing and then you you how am i doing and then you you complexify the system and yes i have no complexify the system and yes i have no complexify the system and yes i have no problem with a with with phase problem with a with with phase problem with a with with phase transition and i you know transition and i you know transition and i you know can can all of this be done can can all of this be done can can all of this be done um um um purely by purely by purely by the language by the the the issues with the language by the the the issues with the language by the the the issues with how the system understands itself how the system understands itself how the system understands itself maybe it can i honestly don't know maybe it can i honestly don't know maybe it can i honestly don't know um but i i you know the philosophers for um but i i you know the philosophers for um but i i you know the philosophers for a long time have talked about uh the a long time have talked about uh the a long time have talked about uh the possibility that you can possibility that you can possibility that you can have a zombie intelligence have a zombie intelligence have a zombie intelligence uh and that there are no feelings there uh and that there are no feelings there uh and that there are no feelings there but all everything else is the same um but all everything else is the same um but all everything else is the same um is i mean i have to throw this back to is i mean i have to throw this back to is i mean i have to throw this back to you really how do you deal with zombie you really how do you deal with zombie you really how do you deal with zombie intelligence intelligence intelligence so first of all i can see that from a so first of all i can see that from a so first of all i can see that from a biologist's perspective biologist's perspective biologist's perspective you think of all the complexities that you think of all the complexities that you think of all the complexities that led up to the human being led up to the human being led up to the human being the entirety of the history of four the entirety of the history of four the entirety of the history of four billion years that in some deep sense billion years that in some deep sense billion years that in some deep sense integrated the human being into this integrated the human being into this integrated the human being into this environment and that environment and that environment and that dance of the organism and the

dance of the organism and the dance of the organism and the environment environment environment you could see how emotions arise from you could see how emotions arise from you could see how emotions arise from that and their emotions are deeply that and their emotions are deeply that and their emotions are deeply connected and creating a human connected and creating a human connected and creating a human experience and from that you mix in experience and from that you mix in experience and from that you mix in consciousness and consciousness and consciousness and the fullness of it yeah uh but the fullness of it yeah uh but the fullness of it yeah uh but from a perspective of an intelligent from a perspective of an intelligent from a perspective of an intelligent organism that's already here organism that's already here organism that's already here like a baby that learns like a baby that learns like a baby that learns it doesn't need to learn how to it doesn't need to learn how to it doesn't need to learn how to be a collection of cells or how to do be a collection of cells or how to do be a collection of cells or how to do all the things he needs to do it's all the things he needs to do it's all the things he needs to do it's the basic function of a baby as it the basic function of a baby as it the basic function of a baby as it learns is to interact with its learns is to interact with its learns is to interact with its environment to learn from its environment to learn from its environment to learn from its environment to learn how to fit in to environment to learn how to fit in to environment to learn how to fit in to this social society to like um and the this social society to like um and the this social society to like um and the the basic uh the basic uh the basic uh response of the baby is to cry a lot of response of the baby is to cry a lot of response of the baby is to cry a lot of the time cry uh to uh well maybe the time cry uh to uh well maybe the time cry uh to uh well maybe convince the humans to convince the humans to convince the humans to to protect it to protect it to protect it or to discipline it to teach it what if or to discipline it to teach it what if or to discipline it to teach it what if i mean uh we've developed a bunch of i mean uh we've developed a bunch of i mean uh we've developed a bunch of different tricks uh how to get our different tricks uh how to get our different tricks uh how to get our parents or to take care of us to educate parents or to take care of us to educate parents or to take care of us to educate us to teach us about the world also us to teach us about the world also us to teach us about the world also we've constructed the world in such a we've constructed the world in such a we've constructed the world in such a way that it's safe enough for us to way that it's safe enough for us to way that it's safe enough for us to survive in and yet dangerous enough to survive in and yet dangerous enough to survive in and yet dangerous enough to learn the valuable lessons like the learn the valuable lessons like the learn the valuable lessons like the tables are still hard with corners so it tables are still hard with corners so it tables are still hard with corners so it can still run into them it hurts like can still run into them it hurts like can still run into them it hurts like how how how so ai needs to solve that problem not so ai needs to solve that problem not so ai needs to solve that problem not the problem of constructing this super the problem of constructing this super the problem of constructing this super complex organism that leads up complex organism that leads up complex organism that leads up uh uh uh so you to run the whole so you to run the whole so you to run the whole um um um you know to make an apple pie to build you know to make an apple pie to build you know to make an apple pie to build the whole universe you need to build the

the whole universe you need to build the the whole universe you need to build the whole universe i think the the zombie whole universe i think the the zombie whole universe i think the the zombie question is uh question is uh question is uh it's something it's something it's something i would leave to the philosophers i would leave to the philosophers i would leave to the philosophers because uh and i will also leave to them the uh and i will also leave to them the definition of love and what is definition of love and what is definition of love and what is what happens between two human beings what happens between two human beings what happens between two human beings when there's a magic when there's a magic when there's a magic that just grabs them that just grabs them that just grabs them like uh nothing else matters in the like uh nothing else matters in the like uh nothing else matters in the world and somehow you've been searching world and somehow you've been searching world and somehow you've been searching for this feeling this moment this person for this feeling this moment this person for this feeling this moment this person your whole life that feeling your whole life that feeling your whole life that feeling um um um the philosophers can have a lot of fun the philosophers can have a lot of fun the philosophers can have a lot of fun with that one and also say that that's with that one and also say that that's with that one and also say that that's just uh you could have a biological just uh you could have a biological just uh you could have a biological explanation you can have all kinds of explanation you can have all kinds of explanation you can have all kinds of it's all fake it's uh actually ein rand it's all fake it's uh actually ein rand it's all fake it's uh actually ein rand will say it's all selfish there's a lot will say it's all selfish there's a lot will say it's all selfish there's a lot of different interpretations i'll leave of different interpretations i'll leave of different interpretations i'll leave it to the philosophers the point is the it to the philosophers the point is the it to the philosophers the point is the feeling feeling feeling surest health feels very real surest health feels very real surest health feels very real and if my toaster and if my toaster and if my toaster makes me feel makes me feel makes me feel like it's the only toaster in the world like it's the only toaster in the world like it's the only toaster in the world and when i leave and when i leave and when i leave and i miss the toaster and when i come and i miss the toaster and when i come and i miss the toaster and when i come back i'm excited to see the toaster and back i'm excited to see the toaster and back i'm excited to see the toaster and my life is meaningful and joyful and the my life is meaningful and joyful and the my life is meaningful and joyful and the friends i have around me friends i have around me friends i have around me get it get a better version of me get it get a better version of me get it get a better version of me because that toaster exists because that toaster exists because that toaster exists that sure as hell feels i mean that sure as hell feels i mean that sure as hell feels i mean is that psychologically different to is that psychologically different to is that psychologically different to having a dog having a dog having a dog no because i mean most people would no because i mean most people would no because i mean most people would dispute whether we can say a dog i would dispute whether we can say a dog i would dispute whether we can say a dog i would i would say dog is undoubtedly conscious i would say dog is undoubtedly conscious i would say dog is undoubtedly conscious but but but but but some people there's degrees of

but but some people there's degrees of but but some people there's degrees of consciousness and so on but people are consciousness and so on but people are consciousness and so on but people are definitely much more uncomfortable definitely much more uncomfortable definitely much more uncomfortable saying a toaster yeah conscious than a saying a toaster yeah conscious than a saying a toaster yeah conscious than a dog dog dog and and and there's still a deep connection you there's still a deep connection you there's still a deep connection you could say our relationship with the dog could say our relationship with the dog could say our relationship with the dog has more to do with anthropomorphism has more to do with anthropomorphism has more to do with anthropomorphism like we kind of project the human being like we kind of project the human being like we kind of project the human being onto it maybe we can do the same damn onto it maybe we can do the same damn onto it maybe we can do the same damn thing with a toaster yes but you can thing with a toaster yes but you can thing with a toaster yes but you can look into the dog's eyes and you can see look into the dog's eyes and you can see look into the dog's eyes and you can see that it's uh it's sad that it's it's that it's uh it's sad that it's it's that it's uh it's sad that it's it's delighted to see you again i don't have delighted to see you again i don't have delighted to see you again i don't have a dog by the way i don't know it's not a dog by the way i don't know it's not a dog by the way i don't know it's not that i'm that i'm that i'm incredibly good at using their eyes they incredibly good at using their eyes they incredibly good at using their eyes they do just that do just that do just that they are now i don't imagine that a dog they are now i don't imagine that a dog they are now i don't imagine that a dog is remotely as close to being is remotely as close to being is remotely as close to being intelligent as a as an ai intelligent as a as an ai intelligent as a as an ai intelligence intelligence intelligence but um but um but um it's certainly capable of communicating it's certainly capable of communicating it's certainly capable of communicating emotionally with us but here's what i emotionally with us but here's what i emotionally with us but here's what i would venture to say we tend to think would venture to say we tend to think would venture to say we tend to think because ad plays chess well yeah and is because ad plays chess well yeah and is because ad plays chess well yeah and is able to fold proteins now well able to fold proteins now well able to fold proteins now well that it's intelligent i would argue that that it's intelligent i would argue that that it's intelligent i would argue that in order to communicate with humans in in order to communicate with humans in in order to communicate with humans in order to have emotional intelligence it order to have emotional intelligence it order to have emotional intelligence it actually requires another order of actually requires another order of actually requires another order of magnitude of intelligence it's not easy magnitude of intelligence it's not easy magnitude of intelligence it's not easy to be to be to be flawed solving a mathematical puzzle is not the solving a mathematical puzzle is not the same as same as same as the full complexity of human to human the full complexity of human to human the full complexity of human to human interaction that's actually interaction that's actually interaction that's actually we humans just we humans just we humans just take for granted the things we're really take for granted the things we're really take for granted the things we're really good at good at good at non-stop people tell me how shitty non-stop people tell me how shitty non-stop people tell me how shitty people are driving people are driving people are driving no no no humans are incredible at driving uh

humans are incredible at driving uh humans are incredible at driving uh bipedal walking walking object bipedal walking walking object bipedal walking walking object manipulation we're incredible at this manipulation we're incredible at this manipulation we're incredible at this and so people tend to and so people tend to and so people tend to discount the things we all just take for discount the things we all just take for discount the things we all just take for granted and one of those things that granted and one of those things that granted and one of those things that they discount is our ability they discount is our ability they discount is our ability the dance of conversation and the dance of conversation and the dance of conversation and interaction with each other the the interaction with each other the the interaction with each other the the ability to morph ideas together the ability to morph ideas together the ability to morph ideas together the ability to get angry at each other ability to get angry at each other ability to get angry at each other and then to miss each other like to and then to miss each other like to and then to miss each other like to create attention that makes life fun and create attention that makes life fun and create attention that makes life fun and difficult and challenging in a way difficult and challenging in a way difficult and challenging in a way that's meaningful that is that's meaningful that is that's meaningful that is a skill that's learned and ai would need a skill that's learned and ai would need a skill that's learned and ai would need to solve that problem i mean in some to solve that problem i mean in some to solve that problem i mean in some sense what you're saying is sense what you're saying is sense what you're saying is a ai cannot become meaningfully a ai cannot become meaningfully a ai cannot become meaningfully emotional let's say until it experiences emotional let's say until it experiences emotional let's say until it experiences some kind of internal conflict that is some kind of internal conflict that is some kind of internal conflict that is unable to reconcile these various unable to reconcile these various unable to reconcile these various aspects of reality or its reality aspects of reality or its reality aspects of reality or its reality with with with with a decision to make with a decision to make with a decision to make and then it feels sad necessarily and then it feels sad necessarily and then it feels sad necessarily because because because it doesn't know what to do it doesn't know what to do it doesn't know what to do and i i certainly can't dispute that and i i certainly can't dispute that and i i certainly can't dispute that that may very well be how it works i that may very well be how it works i that may very well be how it works i think the only way to find out is to do think the only way to find out is to do think the only way to find out is to do it and just build it yeah and leave it it and just build it yeah and leave it it and just build it yeah and leave it to the philosophers if it actually feels to the philosophers if it actually feels to the philosophers if it actually feels sad or not sad or not sad or not the point is the robot will be sitting the point is the robot will be sitting the point is the robot will be sitting there alone having an internal conflict there alone having an internal conflict there alone having an internal conflict an existential crisis and that's an existential crisis and that's an existential crisis and that's required for it to have a deep required for it to have a deep required for it to have a deep meaningful connection with another human meaningful connection with another human meaningful connection with another human being now does it actually feel that i being now does it actually feel that i being now does it actually feel that i don't know but i'd like to throw don't know but i'd like to throw don't know but i'd like to throw something else at you which which

something else at you which which something else at you which which troubles me uh on reading it um troubles me uh on reading it um troubles me uh on reading it um uh noah harrari's book 21 lessons for uh noah harrari's book 21 lessons for uh noah harrari's book 21 lessons for the 21st century and he's written about the 21st century and he's written about the 21st century and he's written about this kind of thing on various occasions this kind of thing on various occasions this kind of thing on various occasions and he sees biochemistry as an algorithm and he sees biochemistry as an algorithm and he sees biochemistry as an algorithm and then ai will necessarily be able to and then ai will necessarily be able to and then ai will necessarily be able to hack that algorithm and do it better hack that algorithm and do it better hack that algorithm and do it better than humans so there will be a.i better than humans so there will be a.i better than humans so there will be a.i better at writing music that we appreciate the at writing music that we appreciate the at writing music that we appreciate the mozart ever called or writing better mozart ever called or writing better mozart ever called or writing better than shakespeare ever did and so on than shakespeare ever did and so on than shakespeare ever did and so on because because because biochemistry is algorithmic and all you biochemistry is algorithmic and all you biochemistry is algorithmic and all you need to do is figure out which bits of need to do is figure out which bits of need to do is figure out which bits of the algorithm to play to make us feel the algorithm to play to make us feel the algorithm to play to make us feel good or bad or appreciate things good or bad or appreciate things good or bad or appreciate things and it's a as a biochemist i find that and it's a as a biochemist i find that and it's a as a biochemist i find that argument close to irrefutable and not very close to irrefutable and not very enjoyable enjoyable enjoyable i don't like the sound of it that's just i don't like the sound of it that's just i don't like the sound of it that's just my reaction as a human being you might my reaction as a human being you might my reaction as a human being you might like the sound of it because that says like the sound of it because that says like the sound of it because that says that ai is is capable of the same kind that ai is is capable of the same kind that ai is is capable of the same kind of of of uh emotional feelings about the world as uh emotional feelings about the world as uh emotional feelings about the world as as we are because the whole thing is an as we are because the whole thing is an as we are because the whole thing is an algorithm and you can program an algorithm and you can program an algorithm and you can program an algorithm algorithm algorithm and and there you are and and there you are and and there you are he then has a peculiar final chapter he then has a peculiar final chapter he then has a peculiar final chapter where he talks about consciousness in where he talks about consciousness in where he talks about consciousness in rather separate terms and he's talking rather separate terms and he's talking rather separate terms and he's talking about meditating and so on and getting about meditating and so on and getting about meditating and so on and getting in touch with his inner conscious i in touch with his inner conscious i in touch with his inner conscious i don't meditate i don't know anything don't meditate i don't know anything don't meditate i don't know anything about that about that about that but he wrote in very different terms but he wrote in very different terms but he wrote in very different terms about it about it about it as if somehow it's a way out of the as if somehow it's a way out of the as if somehow it's a way out of the algorithm algorithm algorithm um now um now um now it seems to me that consciousness in it seems to me that consciousness in it seems to me that consciousness in that sense is capable of scuppering the

that sense is capable of scuppering the that sense is capable of scuppering the algorithm i think in terms of the algorithm i think in terms of the algorithm i think in terms of the biochemical feedback loops and so on it biochemical feedback loops and so on it biochemical feedback loops and so on it is undoubtedly algorithmic is undoubtedly algorithmic is undoubtedly algorithmic but in terms of what we decide to do but in terms of what we decide to do but in terms of what we decide to do it can be much more it can be much more it can be much more um based on an emotion we can just think i based on an emotion we can just think i don't care i can't resolve this complex don't care i can't resolve this complex don't care i can't resolve this complex situation situation situation i'm going to do that i'm going to do that i'm going to do that and that can be based on in effect a and that can be based on in effect a and that can be based on in effect a different currency which is the currency different currency which is the currency different currency which is the currency of feelings and something where we don't of feelings and something where we don't of feelings and something where we don't have very much personal control over and have very much personal control over and have very much personal control over and then it comes back around to to to you then it comes back around to to to you then it comes back around to to to you and what you what are you trying to get and what you what are you trying to get and what you what are you trying to get at with ai do we need to have some at with ai do we need to have some at with ai do we need to have some system which is capable of overriding system which is capable of overriding system which is capable of overriding a rational decision which cannot be made a rational decision which cannot be made a rational decision which cannot be made because there's too much conflicting because there's too much conflicting because there's too much conflicting information information information by by by effectively an emotional judgmental effectively an emotional judgmental effectively an emotional judgmental decision that just says do this and see decision that just says do this and see decision that just says do this and see what happens yeah that's what what happens yeah that's what what happens yeah that's what consciousness is really doing in my view consciousness is really doing in my view consciousness is really doing in my view yeah and the question is whether it's a yeah and the question is whether it's a yeah and the question is whether it's a different process or just a higher level different process or just a higher level different process or just a higher level process process process um i might you know um i might you know um i might you know the idea that biochemistry is an the idea that biochemistry is an the idea that biochemistry is an algorithm algorithm algorithm is uh to me an over simplistic view is uh to me an over simplistic view is uh to me an over simplistic view there's a lot of things that the moment you say it the moment you say it it's irrefutable but it simplifies it's irrefutable but it simplifies it's irrefutable but it simplifies i'm sure it's an extreme and in the i'm sure it's an extreme and in the i'm sure it's an extreme and in the process process process loses something fundamental so for loses something fundamental so for loses something fundamental so for example example example calling a universe an information calling a universe an information calling a universe an information processing system processing system processing system sure yes

sure yes sure yes you could you could make that it's a you could you could make that it's a you could you could make that it's a computer that's performing computations computer that's performing computations computer that's performing computations but you're but you're but you're missing missing missing uh the the process of the process of uh the entropy somehow leading to uh the entropy somehow leading to uh the entropy somehow leading to pockets of complexity that creates these pockets of complexity that creates these pockets of complexity that creates these beautiful artifacts that are incredibly beautiful artifacts that are incredibly beautiful artifacts that are incredibly complex and they're like machines and complex and they're like machines and complex and they're like machines and then those machines are through the then those machines are through the then those machines are through the process of evolution are constructing process of evolution are constructing process of evolution are constructing even further complexity even further complexity even further complexity like like like in calling universe information in calling universe information in calling universe information processing machine processing machine processing machine you're you're you're you're missing those little local you're missing those little local you're missing those little local pockets and how difficult it is to pockets and how difficult it is to pockets and how difficult it is to create them so the question to me is if create them so the question to me is if create them so the question to me is if biochemistry is an algorithm how biochemistry is an algorithm how biochemistry is an algorithm how difficult is it to create in a software difficult is it to create in a software difficult is it to create in a software system okay that runs the human body system okay that runs the human body system okay that runs the human body which i think is incorrect i think we're which i think is incorrect i think we're which i think is incorrect i think we're that is going to take so long that is going to take so long that is going to take so long i can't i mean that's going to be i can't i mean that's going to be i can't i mean that's going to be centuries from now to be able to centuries from now to be able to centuries from now to be able to reconstruct a human now what i would reconstruct a human now what i would reconstruct a human now what i would venture to say to get some of the magic venture to say to get some of the magic venture to say to get some of the magic of a human being of a human being of a human being with what we saying with the emotions with what we saying with the emotions with what we saying with the emotions and the interactions and like like a dog and the interactions and like like a dog and the interactions and like like a dog makes us smile and joyful and all those makes us smile and joyful and all those makes us smile and joyful and all those kinds of things that will come much kinds of things that will come much kinds of things that will come much sooner but that doesn't require us to sooner but that doesn't require us to sooner but that doesn't require us to reverse engineer the algorithm of reverse engineer the algorithm of reverse engineer the algorithm of biochemistry yes but biochemistry yes but biochemistry yes but the toaster is making you happy yes the toaster is making you happy yes the toaster is making you happy yes it's not about whether you make the it's not about whether you make the it's not about whether you make the toast happy toast happy toast happy um no it has to so um no it has to so um no it has to so it has to be it has to be it has to be it has to be the toaster has to be able it has to be the toaster has to be able it has to be the toaster has to be able to leave me happy yeah because the

to leave me happy yeah because the to leave me happy yeah because the toaster is the ai in this case is a very toaster is the ai in this case is a very toaster is the ai in this case is a very interesting the toaster has to be able interesting the toaster has to be able interesting the toaster has to be able to be unhappy and leave me to be unhappy and leave me to be unhappy and leave me that's essential that's essential that's essential yeah that's essential for my being able yeah that's essential for my being able yeah that's essential for my being able to miss the toaster if the toaster is to miss the toaster if the toaster is to miss the toaster if the toaster is just my servant just my servant just my servant that's not or a provider of like that's not or a provider of like that's not or a provider of like services like tells me the weather makes toast like tells me the weather makes toast that's not going to deep connection it that's not going to deep connection it that's not going to deep connection it has to have internal conflict you write has to have internal conflict you write has to have internal conflict you write about life and death it has to be able about life and death it has to be able about life and death it has to be able to be conscious of its mortality to be conscious of its mortality to be conscious of its mortality and the finiteness of its existence and the finiteness of its existence and the finiteness of its existence and that life is for temporary and and that life is for temporary and and that life is for temporary and therefore it needs to be more selective therefore it needs to be more selective therefore it needs to be more selective what are those what are those what are those hangs out moving moments in the movies hangs out moving moments in the movies hangs out moving moments in the movies from when i was a boy was the the from when i was a boy was the the from when i was a boy was the the unplugging of hal in 2001 where unplugging of hal in 2001 where unplugging of hal in 2001 where that was the death of a sentient being that was the death of a sentient being that was the death of a sentient being and and and hal knew it hal knew it hal knew it so i think we so i think we so i think we we all kind of know we all kind of know we all kind of know that that that that a sufficiently that a sufficiently that a sufficiently intelligent being is going to intelligent being is going to intelligent being is going to have some form of consciousness but have some form of consciousness but have some form of consciousness but whether whether whether it would be back like biological it would be back like biological it would be back like biological consciousness i just don't know and if consciousness i just don't know and if consciousness i just don't know and if you're thinking about how do we bring you're thinking about how do we bring you're thinking about how do we bring together i mean obviously we're going to together i mean obviously we're going to together i mean obviously we're going to interact interact interact um more closely with with ai um more closely with with ai um more closely with with ai but but but are we really are we really are we really is is a is a dog really like a toaster is is a is a dog really like a toaster is is a is a dog really like a toaster or is there really some kind of or is there really some kind of or is there really some kind of difference there you were talking ab you difference there you were talking ab you difference there you were talking ab you know biochemistry is algorithmic uh but

know biochemistry is algorithmic uh but know biochemistry is algorithmic uh but it's not single algorithm and it's very it's not single algorithm and it's very it's not single algorithm and it's very complex of course it is so it may be complex of course it is so it may be complex of course it is so it may be that there's there are again conflicts that there's there are again conflicts that there's there are again conflicts in the circuits of biochemistry but i in the circuits of biochemistry but i in the circuits of biochemistry but i have a feeling have a feeling have a feeling that the level of complexity of that the level of complexity of that the level of complexity of the total biochemical system at the the total biochemical system at the the total biochemical system at the level of a single cell is less complex level of a single cell is less complex level of a single cell is less complex than the the level of neural networking than the the level of neural networking than the the level of neural networking in the human brain or in an ai well i guess i assumed that we were well i guess i assumed that we were including the brain in the biochemistry including the brain in the biochemistry including the brain in the biochemistry algorithm algorithm algorithm because you have to because you have to because you have to uh i would see that as a higher level of uh i would see that as a higher level of uh i would see that as a higher level of organization of neural networks they're organization of neural networks they're organization of neural networks they're all using the same biochemical wiring all using the same biochemical wiring all using the same biochemical wiring within themselves within themselves within themselves yeah but the human brain is not just yeah but the human brain is not just yeah but the human brain is not just neurons neurons neurons it's the immune system it's it's the it's the immune system it's it's the it's the immune system it's it's the whole package whole package whole package i mean to have a biochemical algorithm i mean to have a biochemical algorithm i mean to have a biochemical algorithm that runs a that runs a that runs a uh intelligent biological system you uh intelligent biological system you uh intelligent biological system you have to include the whole damn thing and have to include the whole damn thing and have to include the whole damn thing and it's pretty fascinating it comes from it's pretty fascinating it comes from it's pretty fascinating it comes from like like like from an embryo from an embryo from an embryo like the whole i mean oh boy like the whole i mean oh boy like the whole i mean oh boy i mean if you can um i mean if you can um i mean if you can um what is a human being what is a human being what is a human being because it's but if you look just some because it's but if you look just some because it's but if you look just some code and then you build and then that so code and then you build and then that so code and then you build and then that so it's dna doesn't just tell you what to it's dna doesn't just tell you what to it's dna doesn't just tell you what to build but how to build it build but how to build it build but how to build it is it is it is it i mean the thing is impressive and the i mean the thing is impressive and the i mean the thing is impressive and the question is how question is how question is how uh uh uh difficult is it to reverse engineer the difficult is it to reverse engineer the difficult is it to reverse engineer the whole shebang whole shebang whole shebang very difficult i i would say it's don't want to say impossible but

don't want to say impossible but it is it is it is like it's much easier to build a human like it's much easier to build a human like it's much easier to build a human than to reverse engineer than to reverse engineer than to reverse engineer uh uh uh to build like a fake human to build like a fake human to build like a fake human human-like thing human-like thing human-like thing than to reverse engineer the entirety of than to reverse engineer the entirety of than to reverse engineer the entirety of the process the evolution of the process the evolution of the process the evolution of her i'm not sure if we are capable of her i'm not sure if we are capable of her i'm not sure if we are capable of reverse engineering the whole thing yeah reverse engineering the whole thing yeah reverse engineering the whole thing yeah if our if the human mind is capable of if our if the human mind is capable of if our if the human mind is capable of doing that i mean doing that i mean doing that i mean i wouldn't be a biologist if i wasn't i wouldn't be a biologist if i wasn't i wouldn't be a biologist if i wasn't trying yeah um but trying yeah um but trying yeah um but i know i can't understand the whole i know i can't understand the whole i know i can't understand the whole problem i'm just trying to understand problem i'm just trying to understand problem i'm just trying to understand the rudimentary outlines of the problem the rudimentary outlines of the problem the rudimentary outlines of the problem there's another aspect though you're there's another aspect though you're there's another aspect though you're talking about developing from a single talking about developing from a single talking about developing from a single cell to a to a to the human mind and all cell to a to a to the human mind and all cell to a to a to the human mind and all the the the part system subsystems that are part of part system subsystems that are part of part system subsystems that are part of in the immune system and so on in the immune system and so on in the immune system and so on um um um this is something this is something this is something that you'll talk about i imagine um with that you'll talk about i imagine um with that you'll talk about i imagine um with uh with michael levin uh with michael levin uh with michael levin but but but the the the so little is known so little is known so little is known about you talk about reverse engineers about you talk about reverse engineers about you talk about reverse engineers so little is known about the so little is known about the so little is known about the developmental pathways that go from a developmental pathways that go from a developmental pathways that go from a genome to going to a fully wired genome to going to a fully wired genome to going to a fully wired organism organism organism um and a lot of it seems to depend on um and a lot of it seems to depend on um and a lot of it seems to depend on the same intellect the same intellect the same intellect electrical interactions that i was electrical interactions that i was electrical interactions that i was talking about happening at the level of talking about happening at the level of talking about happening at the level of single cells and its interaction with single cells and its interaction with single cells and its interaction with the environment there's there's a whole the environment there's there's a whole the environment there's there's a whole electrical field side to biology electrical field side to biology electrical field side to biology that is not yet written into any of the that is not yet written into any of the that is not yet written into any of the textbooks textbooks textbooks which is about how does an embryo which is about how does an embryo which is about how does an embryo develop into our single cell develop develop into our single cell develop develop into our single cell develop into into these complex systems what

into into these complex systems what into into these complex systems what defines the head what defines the immune defines the head what defines the immune defines the head what defines the immune system what defines the brain and so on system what defines the brain and so on system what defines the brain and so on that really is written in a language that really is written in a language that really is written in a language that we're only just beginning to that we're only just beginning to that we're only just beginning to understand and frankly biologists most understand and frankly biologists most understand and frankly biologists most biologists are still very reluctant to biologists are still very reluctant to biologists are still very reluctant to even even even get themselves tangled up in questions get themselves tangled up in questions get themselves tangled up in questions like electrical fields influencing like electrical fields influencing like electrical fields influencing development it seems like mumbo jumbo to development it seems like mumbo jumbo to development it seems like mumbo jumbo to a lot of biologists and it should not be a lot of biologists and it should not be a lot of biologists and it should not be because this is the 21st century biology because this is the 21st century biology because this is the 21st century biology this is where it's going uh but we're this is where it's going uh but we're this is where it's going uh but we're not going to reverse engineer a human not going to reverse engineer a human not going to reverse engineer a human being or the mind or any of these being or the mind or any of these being or the mind or any of these subsystems until we understand how this subsystems until we understand how this subsystems until we understand how this developmental process well how developmental process well how developmental process well how electricity in biology really works and electricity in biology really works and electricity in biology really works and and if it is and if it is and if it is linked with linked with linked with feelings of with consciousness and so on feelings of with consciousness and so on feelings of with consciousness and so on that's the stamin in the meantime we that's the stamin in the meantime we that's the stamin in the meantime we have to try but but i think that's where have to try but but i think that's where have to try but but i think that's where the answer lies the answer lies the answer lies so you think uh it's possible that the so you think uh it's possible that the so you think uh it's possible that the key to things like consciousness key to things like consciousness key to things like consciousness are some of the more are some of the more are some of the more tricky aspects of cognition might lie in tricky aspects of cognition might lie in tricky aspects of cognition might lie in that early development that early development that early development the interaction of electricity and the interaction of electricity and the interaction of electricity and biology electrical fields electrical fields but we already know the eeg and so on is but we already know the eeg and so on is but we already know the eeg and so on is telling us a lot about brain function telling us a lot about brain function telling us a lot about brain function but we don't know which cells which but we don't know which cells which but we don't know which cells which parts of a neural network is giving rise parts of a neural network is giving rise parts of a neural network is giving rise to the eeg we don't know the basics the to the eeg we don't know the basics the to the eeg we don't know the basics the assumption is assumption is assumption is i mean we know it's neural networks we i mean we know it's neural networks we i mean we know it's neural networks we know it's multiple cells hundreds or know it's multiple cells hundreds or know it's multiple cells hundreds or thousands of cells involved in it and we thousands of cells involved in it and we thousands of cells involved in it and we assume that it's to do with assume that it's to do with assume that it's to do with depolarization depolarization depolarization during action potentials and so on

during action potentials and so on during action potentials and so on but the mitochondria which are in there but the mitochondria which are in there but the mitochondria which are in there have much more membranes than the plasma have much more membranes than the plasma have much more membranes than the plasma membrane of the neuron and there's a membrane of the neuron and there's a membrane of the neuron and there's a much greater membrane potential and it's much greater membrane potential and it's much greater membrane potential and it's formed in formed in formed in parallel very often parallel christie parallel very often parallel christie parallel very often parallel christie which are capable of of um reinforcing a which are capable of of um reinforcing a which are capable of of um reinforcing a field and generating fields over longer field and generating fields over longer field and generating fields over longer distances distances distances um um um and nobody knows if that plays a role in and nobody knows if that plays a role in and nobody knows if that plays a role in consciousness or not there's reasons to consciousness or not there's reasons to consciousness or not there's reasons to argue that it could but frankly we we argue that it could but frankly we we argue that it could but frankly we we simply do not know simply do not know simply do not know and it's not taken into consideration and it's not taken into consideration and it's not taken into consideration you look at the the structure of the you look at the the structure of the you look at the the structure of the mitochondrial membranes mitochondrial membranes mitochondrial membranes in the brains of you know simple things in the brains of you know simple things in the brains of you know simple things like drosophila uh the fruit fly and like drosophila uh the fruit fly and like drosophila uh the fruit fly and they have amazing structures you can see they have amazing structures you can see they have amazing structures you can see lots of little rectangular things all lots of little rectangular things all lots of little rectangular things all lined up uh lined up uh lined up uh in in in in amazing patterns what are in in in in amazing patterns what are in in in in amazing patterns what are they doing why are they like that we they doing why are they like that we they doing why are they like that we haven't the first clue haven't the first clue haven't the first clue what do you think about what do you think about what do you think about organoids and brain organoids and like organoids and brain organoids and like organoids and brain organoids and like so in a lab trying to uh study the so in a lab trying to uh study the so in a lab trying to uh study the development of these development of these development of these in the in the in the uh in the petri dish uh in the petri dish uh in the petri dish development of organs development of organs development of organs do you think that's promising do you do you think that's promising do you do you think that's promising do you have to look at whole systems i've never have to look at whole systems i've never have to look at whole systems i've never done anything like that i don't know done anything like that i don't know done anything like that i don't know much about it the people who i've talked much about it the people who i've talked much about it the people who i've talked to who do work on it say amazing things to who do work on it say amazing things to who do work on it say amazing things can happen and that you know a bit of a can happen and that you know a bit of a can happen and that you know a bit of a brain grown in a in a dish is capable of brain grown in a in a dish is capable of brain grown in a in a dish is capable of experiencing some kind of feelings or experiencing some kind of feelings or experiencing some kind of feelings or even memories of its former brain even memories of its former brain even memories of its former brain again i i have a feeling that until we again i i have a feeling that until we again i i have a feeling that until we understand how to control the electrical understand how to control the electrical understand how to control the electrical fields that that control development fields that that control development fields that that control development we're not going to understand how to we're not going to understand how to we're not going to understand how to turn an organoid into a real functional

turn an organoid into a real functional turn an organoid into a real functional system system system but how do to get that understanding but how do to get that understanding but how do to get that understanding it's so it's so it's so it's so incredibly difficult i mean you it's so incredibly difficult i mean you it's so incredibly difficult i mean you would have to would have to would have to i mean one promising direction i'd love i mean one promising direction i'd love i mean one promising direction i'd love to get your opinion on this um i don't to get your opinion on this um i don't to get your opinion on this um i don't know if you're familiar with the work of know if you're familiar with the work of know if you're familiar with the work of deep mind and alpha fold with protein deep mind and alpha fold with protein deep mind and alpha fold with protein folding and so on do you think it's folding and so on do you think it's folding and so on do you think it's possible possible possible that that will give us some that that will give us some that that will give us some breakthroughs in biology trying to breakthroughs in biology trying to breakthroughs in biology trying to basically simulate basically simulate basically simulate and model the behavior of and model the behavior of and model the behavior of trivial biological systems trivial biological systems trivial biological systems as they become complex biological as they become complex biological as they become complex biological systems systems systems i'm sure it will i'm sure it will i'm sure it will the interesting thing to me about the interesting thing to me about the interesting thing to me about protein folding protein folding protein folding is that is that is that for a long time my understanding is not for a long time my understanding is not for a long time my understanding is not what i work on so i may have got this what i work on so i may have got this what i work on so i may have got this wrong but my understanding is that you wrong but my understanding is that you wrong but my understanding is that you you take the sequence the sequence of a you take the sequence the sequence of a you take the sequence the sequence of a protein protein protein and you try to fold it um in and there and you try to fold it um in and there and you try to fold it um in and there are multiple ways in which you can fold are multiple ways in which you can fold are multiple ways in which you can fold and to come up with the correct and to come up with the correct and to come up with the correct conformation is not a very easy thing conformation is not a very easy thing conformation is not a very easy thing because you're doing it from first because you're doing it from first because you're doing it from first principles from a string of letters principles from a string of letters principles from a string of letters which specify the string of amino acids which specify the string of amino acids which specify the string of amino acids but what actually happens but what actually happens but what actually happens is when a protein is coming out of a is when a protein is coming out of a is when a protein is coming out of a ribosome ribosome ribosome it's coming out of a charged tunnel and it's coming out of a charged tunnel and it's coming out of a charged tunnel and it's in a very specific environment it's in a very specific environment it's in a very specific environment which is going to force this to go there which is going to force this to go there which is going to force this to go there now and then this one to go there and now and then this one to go there and now and then this one to go there and this one to come like and so you're this one to come like and so you're this one to come like and so you're forcing a specific conformational set of forcing a specific conformational set of forcing a specific conformational set of changes onto it as it comes out of the changes onto it as it comes out of the changes onto it as it comes out of the ribosome so by the time it's fully ribosome so by the time it's fully ribosome so by the time it's fully emerged it's already got its shape and emerged it's already got its shape and emerged it's already got its shape and that shape depended on that shape depended on that shape depended on on on on the immediate environment that

on on on the immediate environment that on on on the immediate environment that it was emerging into one letter as one it was emerging into one letter as one it was emerging into one letter as one one one amino acid at a time one one amino acid at a time one one amino acid at a time and i don't think that the field and i don't think that the field and i don't think that the field was looking at it that way was looking at it that way was looking at it that way and this is if if that's correct then and this is if if that's correct then and this is if if that's correct then that's very characteristic of science that's very characteristic of science that's very characteristic of science which is to say it asks very often the which is to say it asks very often the which is to say it asks very often the wrong question and then does really wrong question and then does really wrong question and then does really amazingly sophisticated analyses on amazingly sophisticated analyses on amazingly sophisticated analyses on something having never thought to something having never thought to something having never thought to actually think well what is biology actually think well what is biology actually think well what is biology doing in biology is giving you a charged doing in biology is giving you a charged doing in biology is giving you a charged electrical environment that forces you electrical environment that forces you electrical environment that forces you to be this way now did to be this way now did to be this way now did deep mind deep mind deep mind come up through patterns with some come up through patterns with some come up through patterns with some answer that was like that i've got answer that was like that i've got answer that was like that i've got absolutely no idea it bought to be absolutely no idea it bought to be absolutely no idea it bought to be possible to deduce that possible to deduce that possible to deduce that from the shapes of proteins it would from the shapes of proteins it would from the shapes of proteins it would require much greater require much greater require much greater much greater much greater much greater skill than the human mind has skill than the human mind has skill than the human mind has but the human mind is capable of saying but the human mind is capable of saying but the human mind is capable of saying well hang on let's look at this exit well hang on let's look at this exit well hang on let's look at this exit tunnel and try and work out what shape tunnel and try and work out what shape tunnel and try and work out what shape is this protein going to take well they is this protein going to take well they is this protein going to take well they can figure that out that's really can figure that out that's really can figure that out that's really interesting about the exit tunnel but interesting about the exit tunnel but interesting about the exit tunnel but like sometimes we get lucky and like sometimes we get lucky and like sometimes we get lucky and our like just second science our like just second science our like just second science the simplified view or the static view the simplified view or the static view the simplified view or the static view uh will actually solve the problem for uh will actually solve the problem for uh will actually solve the problem for us so in this case it's very possible us so in this case it's very possible us so in this case it's very possible that the sequence of letters has a that the sequence of letters has a that the sequence of letters has a unique mapping to our structure without unique mapping to our structure without unique mapping to our structure without considering how considering how considering how it unraveled so without considering the it unraveled so without considering the it unraveled so without considering the tunnel and so and that seems to be the tunnel and so and that seems to be the tunnel and so and that seems to be the case case case in this situation with the the cool in this situation with the the cool in this situation with the the cool thing about proteins all the different thing about proteins all the different thing about proteins all the different shapes that can possibly take it shapes that can possibly take it shapes that can possibly take it actually seems to take actually seems to take actually seems to take very specific unique shapes given the very specific unique shapes given the very specific unique shapes given the sequence that's forced on you by an exit

sequence that's forced on you by an exit sequence that's forced on you by an exit tunnel so the problem is actually much tunnel so the problem is actually much tunnel so the problem is actually much simpler than you thought and then simpler than you thought and then simpler than you thought and then there's a whole army of there's a whole army of there's a whole army of of uh proteins that of uh proteins that of uh proteins that uh which change the conformational state uh which change the conformational state uh which change the conformational state uh chaperone proteins and they're only uh chaperone proteins and they're only uh chaperone proteins and they're only used when used when used when when there's some presumably issue with when there's some presumably issue with when there's some presumably issue with how it came out of the exit tunnel and how it came out of the exit tunnel and how it came out of the exit tunnel and you want to do it differently to that so you want to do it differently to that so you want to do it differently to that so very often the chaperone proteins will very often the chaperone proteins will very often the chaperone proteins will go there and will influence the way in go there and will influence the way in go there and will influence the way in which it falls which it falls which it falls so so so there's two ways of doing it either you there's two ways of doing it either you there's two ways of doing it either you can you can look at the structures and can you can look at the structures and can you can look at the structures and the sequences of all the proteins and the sequences of all the proteins and the sequences of all the proteins and you can apply an immense mind to it and you can apply an immense mind to it and you can apply an immense mind to it and figure out what the patterns are and figure out what the patterns are and figure out what the patterns are and figure out what or you can look at the figure out what or you can look at the figure out what or you can look at the actual situation where it is and say actual situation where it is and say actual situation where it is and say well hang on it was actually quite well hang on it was actually quite well hang on it was actually quite simple it's got a charged environment simple it's got a charged environment simple it's got a charged environment and of course it's forced to come out and of course it's forced to come out and of course it's forced to come out this way and then the question would be this way and then the question would be this way and then the question would be well do different ribosomes have well do different ribosomes have well do different ribosomes have different charged environments what different charged environments what different charged environments what happens if a chaparral you know you're happens if a chaparral you know you're happens if a chaparral you know you're asking a different set of questions to asking a different set of questions to asking a different set of questions to come to the same answer in a way which come to the same answer in a way which come to the same answer in a way which is telling you is telling you is telling you a much simpler story and explains why it a much simpler story and explains why it a much simpler story and explains why it is rather than saying it could be is rather than saying it could be is rather than saying it could be this is one in a in a billion different this is one in a in a billion different this is one in a in a billion different possible conformational states that this possible conformational states that this possible conformational states that this protein could have you're saying well it protein could have you're saying well it protein could have you're saying well it has this one because that was has this one because that was has this one because that was the only one it could take given its the only one it could take given its the only one it could take given its setting setting setting well yeah i mean there's currently well yeah i mean there's currently well yeah i mean there's currently humans are very good at that kind of humans are very good at that kind of humans are very good at that kind of first principles thinking oh yeah first principles thinking oh yeah first principles thinking oh yeah stepping back but i think ai is really stepping back but i think ai is really stepping back but i think ai is really good at you know collect a huge amount good at you know collect a huge amount good at you know collect a huge amount of data of data of data and a huge amount of data of observation and a huge amount of data of observation and a huge amount of data of observation of planets and figure out that earth is of planets and figure out that earth is of planets and figure out that earth is not at the center of the universe that not at the center of the universe that not at the center of the universe that there's actually a sun we're there's actually a sun we're there's actually a sun we're orbiting the sun but then you can as a

orbiting the sun but then you can as a orbiting the sun but then you can as a human being ask well how did how do human being ask well how did how do human being ask well how did how do solar systems come to be how do it solar systems come to be how do it solar systems come to be how do it what are the different forces that are what are the different forces that are what are the different forces that are required to make this kind of pattern required to make this kind of pattern required to make this kind of pattern emerge and then you start to invent emerge and then you start to invent emerge and then you start to invent things like gravity what i mean things like gravity what i mean things like gravity what i mean obviously i mixed up the ordering of of uh gravity i mixed up the ordering of of uh gravity wasn't considered as a thing that wasn't considered as a thing that wasn't considered as a thing that connects planets but connects planets but connects planets but um um um we are able to think about those big we are able to think about those big we are able to think about those big picture things as human beings picture things as human beings picture things as human beings ai is just very good to infer ai is just very good to infer ai is just very good to infer simple models from a huge amount of simple models from a huge amount of simple models from a huge amount of um data um data um data and the question is with biology you and the question is with biology you and the question is with biology you know we kind of go back and forth how we know we kind of go back and forth how we know we kind of go back and forth how we solve biology listen protein folding was solve biology listen protein folding was solve biology listen protein folding was thought to be impossible to solve and thought to be impossible to solve and thought to be impossible to solve and there's a lot of brilliant phd students there's a lot of brilliant phd students there's a lot of brilliant phd students that worked one protein at a time trying that worked one protein at a time trying that worked one protein at a time trying to figure out the structure and the fact to figure out the structure and the fact to figure out the structure and the fact that i was able to do that that i was able to do that that i was able to do that oh i'm not i'm not oh i'm not i'm not oh i'm not i'm not knocking it at all but uh but but i knocking it at all but uh but but i knocking it at all but uh but but i think that people have been asking the think that people have been asking the think that people have been asking the wrong question but then wrong question but then wrong question but then as the people start to ask better as the people start to ask better as the people start to ask better and bigger questions and bigger questions and bigger questions the ai kind of enters the chat and says the ai kind of enters the chat and says the ai kind of enters the chat and says i'll help you out with that i'll help you out with that i'll help you out with that can i give you another example of my own can i give you another example of my own can i give you another example of my own work work work um the the risk of getting a disease as we the the risk of getting a disease as we get older get older get older um um um there are genetic aspects to it you know there are genetic aspects to it you know there are genetic aspects to it you know if you spend your whole life if you spend your whole life if you spend your whole life overeating and smoking and whatever overeating and smoking and whatever overeating and smoking and whatever that's a whole separate question

that's a whole separate question that's a whole separate question but there's a genetic side to the risk but there's a genetic side to the risk but there's a genetic side to the risk and and we know a few genes that and and we know a few genes that and and we know a few genes that increase your risk of certain things and increase your risk of certain things and increase your risk of certain things and for for probably 20 years now people for for probably 20 years now people for for probably 20 years now people have been doing what's called g wasps have been doing what's called g wasps have been doing what's called g wasps which is um genome-wide association which is um genome-wide association which is um genome-wide association studies so you you've effectively studies so you you've effectively studies so you you've effectively scanned the entire genome for any scanned the entire genome for any scanned the entire genome for any single nucleotide polymorphisms which is single nucleotide polymorphisms which is single nucleotide polymorphisms which is say a single letter change in one place say a single letter change in one place say a single letter change in one place that has a higher association of being that has a higher association of being that has a higher association of being linked with a particular disease or not linked with a particular disease or not linked with a particular disease or not and you can come up with thousands of and you can come up with thousands of and you can come up with thousands of these things across the genome these things across the genome these things across the genome and and and if you add them all up if you add them all up if you add them all up and try and say well so do they add up and try and say well so do they add up and try and say well so do they add up to uh to explain the the known genetic to uh to explain the the known genetic to uh to explain the the known genetic risk of this disease and the known risk of this disease and the known risk of this disease and the known genetic risk often comes from twin genetic risk often comes from twin genetic risk often comes from twin studies and you can say that you know studies and you can say that you know studies and you can say that you know that if if this twin gets that if if this twin gets that if if this twin gets epilepsy there's a 40 or 50 risk that epilepsy there's a 40 or 50 risk that epilepsy there's a 40 or 50 risk that the other twin identical twin will also the other twin identical twin will also the other twin identical twin will also get epilepsy therefore the genetic get epilepsy therefore the genetic get epilepsy therefore the genetic factor is about 50 percent uh and so the factor is about 50 percent uh and so the factor is about 50 percent uh and so the the gene the gene the gene similarities that you see should account similarities that you see should account similarities that you see should account for 50 for 50 for 50 of that known risk of that known risk of that known risk very often it accounts for less than a very often it accounts for less than a very often it accounts for less than a tenth of the known risk tenth of the known risk tenth of the known risk and there's two possible explanations and there's two possible explanations and there's two possible explanations and there's one which people tend to do and there's one which people tend to do and there's one which people tend to do which is to say ah well we don't have which is to say ah well we don't have which is to say ah well we don't have enough statistical power if we maybe enough statistical power if we maybe enough statistical power if we maybe there's maybe there's a million we've there's maybe there's a million we've there's maybe there's a million we've only found a thousand of them but if we only found a thousand of them but if we only found a thousand of them but if we found the other million they're weakly found the other million they're weakly found the other million they're weakly related but there's a huge number of related but there's a huge number of related but there's a huge number of them and so we'll account for that whole them and so we'll account for that whole them and so we'll account for that whole risk maybe there's i mean you know maybe risk maybe there's i mean you know maybe risk maybe there's i mean you know maybe there's a billion of them for instance

there's a billion of them for instance there's a billion of them for instance so so that's one way the other way is to so so that's one way the other way is to so so that's one way the other way is to say say say well hang on a minute you're missing a well hang on a minute you're missing a well hang on a minute you're missing a system here that system is the system here that system is the system here that system is the mitochondrial dna which people tend to mitochondrial dna which people tend to mitochondrial dna which people tend to dismiss because it's small and it's not dismiss because it's small and it's not dismiss because it's small and it's not uh it doesn't change very much but a few but a few single letter changes in that single letter changes in that single letter changes in that mitochondrial dna it it controls some mitochondrial dna it it controls some mitochondrial dna it it controls some really basic processes it controls really basic processes it controls really basic processes it controls not only all the energy that we need to not only all the energy that we need to not only all the energy that we need to live and to move around and do live and to move around and do live and to move around and do everything we do but also biosynthesis everything we do but also biosynthesis everything we do but also biosynthesis to make the new building blocks to you to make the new building blocks to you to make the new building blocks to you know know know to to to make new cells and cancer cells to to to make new cells and cancer cells to to to make new cells and cancer cells very often kind of take over the very often kind of take over the very often kind of take over the mitochondria and rewire them so that mitochondria and rewire them so that mitochondria and rewire them so that instead of using them for making energy instead of using them for making energy instead of using them for making energy they're effectively using them as they're effectively using them as they're effectively using them as precursors for the building blocks for precursors for the building blocks for precursors for the building blocks for biosynthesis you need to make new amino biosynthesis you need to make new amino biosynthesis you need to make new amino acids new nucleotides for dna you want acids new nucleotides for dna you want acids new nucleotides for dna you want to make new lipids to make your to make new lipids to make your to make new lipids to make your membranes and so on so they kind of membranes and so on so they kind of membranes and so on so they kind of rewire metabolism now the problem is rewire metabolism now the problem is rewire metabolism now the problem is that we've got all these interactions that we've got all these interactions that we've got all these interactions between mitochondrial dna and the genes between mitochondrial dna and the genes between mitochondrial dna and the genes in the nucleus in the nucleus in the nucleus that are overlooked completely because that are overlooked completely because that are overlooked completely because people throw away literally throw away people throw away literally throw away people throw away literally throw away the mitochondrial genes and we can see the mitochondrial genes and we can see the mitochondrial genes and we can see in in fruit flies that they interact and in in fruit flies that they interact and in in fruit flies that they interact and produce produce produce big differences in risk big differences in risk big differences in risk so you can set so you can set so you can set uh you can set ai onto this question of uh you can set ai onto this question of uh you can set ai onto this question of exactly what exactly what exactly what uh you know how many of these base uh you know how many of these base uh you know how many of these base changes there are and this is one changes there are and this is one changes there are and this is one possible solution that maybe possible solution that maybe possible solution that maybe there are a million of them and it does there are a million of them and it does there are a million of them and it does account for the great part of the risk account for the great part of the risk account for the great part of the risk well the other one is they aren't it's

well the other one is they aren't it's well the other one is they aren't it's just not there that actually the risk just not there that actually the risk just not there that actually the risk lies in something you weren't even lies in something you weren't even lies in something you weren't even looking at and this is where human looking at and this is where human looking at and this is where human intuition intuition intuition is very important and just this feeling is very important and just this feeling is very important and just this feeling that well i'm working on this and i that well i'm working on this and i that well i'm working on this and i think it's important and i'm bloody think it's important and i'm bloody think it's important and i'm bloody minded about it and in the end some minded about it and in the end some minded about it and in the end some people are right it turns out that it people are right it turns out that it people are right it turns out that it was important was important was important can you get ai to do that to be can you get ai to do that to be can you get ai to do that to be bloody-minded bloody-minded bloody-minded and uh that that that hang on a minute and uh that that that hang on a minute and uh that that that hang on a minute you might be missing a whole other you might be missing a whole other you might be missing a whole other system here that's much bigger system here that's much bigger system here that's much bigger that's that's huma that's that's that's huma that's that's that's huma that's that's the moment of discovery of that's the moment of discovery of that's the moment of discovery of scientific revolution scientific revolution scientific revolution i'm i'm i'm giving up on saying hey i can't do giving up on saying hey i can't do giving up on saying hey i can't do something something something i've said it enough times about enough i've said it enough times about enough i've said it enough times about enough things i think there's been a lot of things i think there's been a lot of things i think there's been a lot of progress progress progress and uh instead i'm excited by the and uh instead i'm excited by the and uh instead i'm excited by the possibility of ai helping humans but at possibility of ai helping humans but at possibility of ai helping humans but at the same time just like i said we seem the same time just like i said we seem the same time just like i said we seem to dismiss the power of humans yes yes to dismiss the power of humans yes yes to dismiss the power of humans yes yes like we're so limited like we're so limited like we're so limited in so many ways in so many ways in so many ways uh uh uh that kind of that kind of that kind of in in what we feel like dumb ways like in in what we feel like dumb ways like in in what we feel like dumb ways like we're not strong we're not strong we're not strong we're uh we're kind of we're uh we're kind of we're uh we're kind of um um um our attention our memory is limited our our attention our memory is limited our our attention our memory is limited our ability to focus on things is limited ability to focus on things is limited ability to focus on things is limited in our own perception of what limited is in our own perception of what limited is in our own perception of what limited is but that actually there's an incredible but that actually there's an incredible but that actually there's an incredible computer behind the whole thing that computer behind the whole thing that computer behind the whole thing that makes this whole system work our ability makes this whole system work our ability makes this whole system work our ability to to to interact with the environment to reason interact with the environment to reason interact with the environment to reason about the environment there's magic

about the environment there's magic about the environment there's magic there and i i'm hopeful that ai can there and i i'm hopeful that ai can there and i i'm hopeful that ai can capture some of that same magic but that capture some of that same magic but that capture some of that same magic but that magic is not going to look like uh deep magic is not going to look like uh deep magic is not going to look like uh deep blue playing chess no it's going to be blue playing chess no it's going to be blue playing chess no it's going to be more interesting but i don't think it's more interesting but i don't think it's more interesting but i don't think it's going to look like a pattern finding going to look like a pattern finding going to look like a pattern finding either i mean that's essentially what either i mean that's essentially what either i mean that's essentially what you're telling me it does very well at you're telling me it does very well at you're telling me it does very well at the moment and my point is the moment and my point is the moment and my point is it works very well where you're looking it works very well where you're looking it works very well where you're looking for the right pattern but we are for the right pattern but we are for the right pattern but we are storytelling animals and the hypothesis storytelling animals and the hypothesis storytelling animals and the hypothesis is a story is a story is a story it's a testable story but but you know a it's a testable story but but you know a it's a testable story but but you know a new hypothesis is a leap into the new hypothesis is a leap into the new hypothesis is a leap into the unknown and it's a new story basically unknown and it's a new story basically unknown and it's a new story basically and it says uh this leads to this leads and it says uh this leads to this leads and it says uh this leads to this leads to that it's a causal set of of of to that it's a causal set of of of to that it's a causal set of of of storytelling storytelling storytelling it's also possible that the leap into it's also possible that the leap into it's also possible that the leap into the unknown has a pattern of its own yes the unknown has a pattern of its own yes the unknown has a pattern of its own yes it is it is it is possible let's learn learnable possible let's learn learnable possible let's learn learnable i'm sure it is there's a nice uh book by i'm sure it is there's a nice uh book by i'm sure it is there's a nice uh book by arthur cursler on um arthur cursler on um arthur cursler on um on on the nature of creativity and and on on the nature of creativity and and on on the nature of creativity and and he likens it to a joke where the he likens it to a joke where the he likens it to a joke where the punchline goes off in a completely punchline goes off in a completely punchline goes off in a completely unexpected direction and says that this unexpected direction and says that this unexpected direction and says that this is the basis of is the basis of is the basis of human creativity that you know some human creativity that you know some human creativity that you know some creative switch of direction to an creative switch of direction to an creative switch of direction to an unexpected place is similar to to a unexpected place is similar to to a unexpected place is similar to to a i'm not saying that's how it works but i'm not saying that's how it works but i'm not saying that's how it works but it's a nice idea and there's must be it's a nice idea and there's must be it's a nice idea and there's must be some truth in it some truth in it some truth in it um um um and it's one of these and it's one of these and it's one of these most of the stories we tell are probably most of the stories we tell are probably most of the stories we tell are probably the wrong story and probably going the wrong story and probably going the wrong story and probably going nowhere and probably not helpful and we nowhere and probably not helpful and we nowhere and probably not helpful and we definitely don't do as well at seeing definitely don't do as well at seeing definitely don't do as well at seeing patterns in things but some of the most patterns in things but some of the most patterns in things but some of the most enjoyable human aspects is is finding a

enjoyable human aspects is is finding a enjoyable human aspects is is finding a new story that goes to an unexpected new story that goes to an unexpected new story that goes to an unexpected place and these are all aspects of what place and these are all aspects of what place and these are all aspects of what being human means to me being human means to me being human means to me um and maybe these are all things that um and maybe these are all things that um and maybe these are all things that that ai figures out for itself or maybe that ai figures out for itself or maybe that ai figures out for itself or maybe they're just aspects they're just aspects they're just aspects but i i just have the feeling sometimes but i i just have the feeling sometimes but i i just have the feeling sometimes that the people who that the people who that the people who are trying to are trying to are trying to understand what to understand what to understand what to what we are like what weird what we if what we are like what weird what we if what we are like what weird what we if we wish to craft an ai system which is we wish to craft an ai system which is we wish to craft an ai system which is somehow human-like somehow human-like somehow human-like that we don't have a firm enough that we don't have a firm enough that we don't have a firm enough grasp of grasp of grasp of what humans really are like in terms of what humans really are like in terms of what humans really are like in terms of how we are built how we are built how we are built but we uh get a better better but we uh get a better better but we uh get a better better understanding of that i agree with you understanding of that i agree with you understanding of that i agree with you completely we try to build the thing and completely we try to build the thing and completely we try to build the thing and then we'll go then we'll go then we'll go hang on in a minute yeah hang on in a minute yeah hang on in a minute yeah there's another system here and that's there's another system here and that's there's another system here and that's actually the attempt to build ai actually the attempt to build ai actually the attempt to build ai that's human-like is getting us to a that's human-like is getting us to a that's human-like is getting us to a deeper understanding of human beings deeper understanding of human beings deeper understanding of human beings the funny thing i recently talked to the funny thing i recently talked to the funny thing i recently talked to magnus carlson the widely considered to magnus carlson the widely considered to magnus carlson the widely considered to be the greatest chess player of all time be the greatest chess player of all time be the greatest chess player of all time and he talked about alpha zero which is and he talked about alpha zero which is and he talked about alpha zero which is a system from deepmind that plays chess a system from deepmind that plays chess a system from deepmind that plays chess and he had a funny comment and he had a funny comment and he had a funny comment um he has a kind of dry sense of humor um he has a kind of dry sense of humor um he has a kind of dry sense of humor but he was extremely impressed when he but he was extremely impressed when he but he was extremely impressed when he first saw alpha zero play first saw alpha zero play first saw alpha zero play and he said that it did a lot of things and he said that it did a lot of things and he said that it did a lot of things that could easily be mistaken for that could easily be mistaken for that could easily be mistaken for creativity creativity creativity [Laughter] [Laughter] [Laughter] uh so he like refute as a typical human uh so he like refute as a typical human uh so he like refute as a typical human refused to give the system refused to give the system refused to give the system sort of it's due because he came up with

sort of it's due because he came up with sort of it's due because he came up with a lot of things that a lot of people a lot of things that a lot of people a lot of things that a lot of people are extremely impressed by not just the are extremely impressed by not just the are extremely impressed by not just the sheer calculation but sheer calculation but sheer calculation but the the brilliance of play so one of the the the brilliance of play so one of the the the brilliance of play so one of the things that um things that um things that um it does it does it does in really interesting ways is it in really interesting ways is it in really interesting ways is it sacrifices pieces sacrifices pieces sacrifices pieces so in chess that means you you you so in chess that means you you you so in chess that means you you you basically take a few steps back in order basically take a few steps back in order basically take a few steps back in order to take a step forward you give away to take a step forward you give away to take a step forward you give away pieces for some future reward pieces for some future reward pieces for some future reward and that and that and that for us humans is where art is in chess for us humans is where art is in chess for us humans is where art is in chess you take big risks you take big risks you take big risks that that that uh for us humans uh for us humans uh for us humans those risks are especially painful those risks are especially painful those risks are especially painful because because because you have a fog of uncertainty before you you have a fog of uncertainty before you you have a fog of uncertainty before you so to take a risk now based on the so to take a risk now based on the so to take a risk now based on the intuition of i think this is the right intuition of i think this is the right intuition of i think this is the right risk to take but there's so many risk to take but there's so many risk to take but there's so many possibilities that that's where it takes possibilities that that's where it takes possibilities that that's where it takes guts that's where art is that's that guts that's where art is that's that guts that's where art is that's that danger and then danger and then danger and then the the the alpha alpha alpha alpha zero takes those same kind of alpha zero takes those same kind of alpha zero takes those same kind of risks and does them even greater degree risks and does them even greater degree risks and does them even greater degree but of course but of course but of course it does it from a it does it from a it does it from a well you could easily well you could easily well you could easily uh reduce down to a uh reduce down to a uh reduce down to a cold cold cold calculation over patterns but calculation over patterns but calculation over patterns but boy when you see the final result it boy when you see the final result it boy when you see the final result it sure looks like the same kind of magic sure looks like the same kind of magic sure looks like the same kind of magic that we see in creativity that we see in creativity that we see in creativity uh when we see creative play on the uh when we see creative play on the uh when we see creative play on the chessboard but the chessboard is very chessboard but the chessboard is very chessboard but the chessboard is very limited and the question is as we get

limited and the question is as we get limited and the question is as we get better and better can we better and better can we better and better can we do that same kind of creativity do that same kind of creativity do that same kind of creativity in mathematics in mathematics in mathematics in programming in programming in programming and then adventuring biology psychology and then adventuring biology psychology and then adventuring biology psychology and expand into more and more complex and expand into more and more complex and expand into more and more complex systems systems systems i was um i was um i was um used to go running when i was a boy and used to go running when i was a boy and used to go running when i was a boy and fell running which is say running up and fell running which is say running up and fell running which is say running up and down mountains and i was never down mountains and i was never down mountains and i was never particularly great at it but particularly great at it but particularly great at it but there were some people who were there were some people who were there were some people who were amazingly fast especially at running amazingly fast especially at running amazingly fast especially at running down down down uh and i i realized in trying to do this uh and i i realized in trying to do this uh and i i realized in trying to do this that um there's that um there's that um there's there's only really two two way there's there's only really two two way there's there's only really two two way there's three possible ways of doing it and three possible ways of doing it and three possible ways of doing it and there's only two that work either you go there's only two that work either you go there's only two that work either you go extremely slowly and carefully and you extremely slowly and carefully and you extremely slowly and carefully and you figure out okay there's a stone i'll put figure out okay there's a stone i'll put figure out okay there's a stone i'll put my foot on this stone and then there's my foot on this stone and then there's my foot on this stone and then there's another there's a muddy puddle i'm going another there's a muddy puddle i'm going another there's a muddy puddle i'm going to avoid and you know it's slow it's to avoid and you know it's slow it's to avoid and you know it's slow it's laborious you figure it out step by step laborious you figure it out step by step laborious you figure it out step by step or you can just go incredibly fast and or you can just go incredibly fast and or you can just go incredibly fast and you don't think about it at all the you don't think about it at all the you don't think about it at all the entire conscious mind is shut out of it entire conscious mind is shut out of it entire conscious mind is shut out of it and it's probably the same playing table and it's probably the same playing table and it's probably the same playing table tennis or something there's something in tennis or something there's something in tennis or something there's something in the mind which is doing a whole lot of the mind which is doing a whole lot of the mind which is doing a whole lot of subconscious calculations about exactly subconscious calculations about exactly subconscious calculations about exactly and it's amazing you can run at and it's amazing you can run at and it's amazing you can run at astonishing speed down a hillside with astonishing speed down a hillside with astonishing speed down a hillside with no idea how you did it at all no idea how you did it at all no idea how you did it at all and then you panic and you think i'm and then you panic and you think i'm and then you panic and you think i'm going to break my leg if i keep doing going to break my leg if i keep doing going to break my leg if i keep doing this i've got to think about where i'm this i've got to think about where i'm this i've got to think about where i'm going to put my foot so you slow down a going to put my foot so you slow down a going to put my foot so you slow down a bit and try to bring those conscious bit and try to bring those conscious bit and try to bring those conscious mind in and then you you do you crash mind in and then you you do you crash mind in and then you you do you crash you can't you can you cannot think you can't you can you cannot think you can't you can you cannot think consciously while running downhill consciously while running downhill consciously while running downhill and so it's amazing and so it's amazing and so it's amazing it's amazing how many calculations the

it's amazing how many calculations the it's amazing how many calculations the mind is able to make mind is able to make mind is able to make and now the problem with playing chess and now the problem with playing chess and now the problem with playing chess or something if you were able to make or something if you were able to make or something if you were able to make all of those subconscious kind of all of those subconscious kind of all of those subconscious kind of forward calculations about forward calculations about forward calculations about what what is the likely outcome of this what what is the likely outcome of this what what is the likely outcome of this move now move now move now uh in the way that we can by running uh in the way that we can by running uh in the way that we can by running down a hillside or something is it you down a hillside or something is it you down a hillside or something is it you know it's partly about what we have know it's partly about what we have know it's partly about what we have adapted to do it's partly about the adapted to do it's partly about the adapted to do it's partly about the reality of the world that we're in reality of the world that we're in reality of the world that we're in running fast downhill is something that running fast downhill is something that running fast downhill is something that we better be bloody good at otherwise we better be bloody good at otherwise we better be bloody good at otherwise we're going to be eaten um we're going to be eaten um we're going to be eaten um whereas whereas whereas whereas whereas whereas trying to calculate trying to calculate trying to calculate multiple multiple moves into the future multiple multiple moves into the future multiple multiple moves into the future is not something we've ever been called is not something we've ever been called is not something we've ever been called on to do two or three four moves into on to do two or three four moves into on to do two or three four moves into the future is quite enough for most of the future is quite enough for most of the future is quite enough for most of us most of the time us most of the time us most of the time yeah yeah yeah yeah so the yeah just solving chess may yeah so the yeah just solving chess may yeah so the yeah just solving chess may not um not um not um we may not be as far towards solving the we may not be as far towards solving the we may not be as far towards solving the problem of uh downhill running problem of uh downhill running problem of uh downhill running as we might think just because we solved as we might think just because we solved as we might think just because we solved chess chess chess still it's beautiful to see still it's beautiful to see still it's beautiful to see creativity humans create machines creativity humans create machines creativity humans create machines they're able to create art they're able to create art they're able to create art and art on the chessboard and art and art on the chessboard and art and art on the chessboard and art otherwise otherwise otherwise who knows how far that takes us who knows how far that takes us who knows how far that takes us so i mentioned andre carpathi earlier so i mentioned andre carpathi earlier so i mentioned andre carpathi earlier him and i are big fans of yours if him and i are big fans of yours if him and i are big fans of yours if you're taking votes his suggestion was you're taking votes his suggestion was you're taking votes his suggestion was you should write your next book on the you should write your next book on the you should write your next book on the fermi paradox fermi paradox fermi paradox so let me ask you on the topic of uh so let me ask you on the topic of uh so let me ask you on the topic of uh alien life

alien life alien life since we've been talking about life and since we've been talking about life and since we've been talking about life and we're a kind of aliens we're a kind of aliens we're a kind of aliens how many alien civilizations are out how many alien civilizations are out how many alien civilizations are out there do you think well the universe is very big well the universe is very big so some so some so some but not as many as most people would but not as many as most people would but not as many as most people would like to think is my view because the like to think is my view because the like to think is my view because the idea that idea that idea that that there is a trajectory going from simple simple cellular life like simple simple cellular life like bacteria all the way through to humans bacteria all the way through to humans bacteria all the way through to humans it seems to me there's some big gaps it seems to me there's some big gaps it seems to me there's some big gaps along that way the the eukaryotic cell along that way the the eukaryotic cell along that way the the eukaryotic cell the the complex cell that we have is is the the complex cell that we have is is the the complex cell that we have is is the biggest of them but also the biggest of them but also the biggest of them but also photosynthesis is another the other photosynthesis is another the other photosynthesis is another the other another interesting gap is a long gap another interesting gap is a long gap another interesting gap is a long gap from from the origin of the eukaryotic from from the origin of the eukaryotic from from the origin of the eukaryotic cell to the first animals that was about cell to the first animals that was about cell to the first animals that was about a billion years a billion years a billion years uh maybe more than that uh maybe more than that uh maybe more than that um a long delay in when oxygen began to um a long delay in when oxygen began to um a long delay in when oxygen began to accumulate in the atmosphere so from the accumulate in the atmosphere so from the accumulate in the atmosphere so from the first appearance of oxygen in the great first appearance of oxygen in the great first appearance of oxygen in the great oxidation event who were enough for oxidation event who were enough for oxidation event who were enough for animals to respire animals to respire animals to respire it was close to two billion years it was close to two billion years it was close to two billion years um um um why so long it seems to be planetary why so long it seems to be planetary why so long it seems to be planetary factors it seems to be geology as much factors it seems to be geology as much factors it seems to be geology as much as in anything else and we don't really as in anything else and we don't really as in anything else and we don't really know know know what was going on what was going on what was going on so the idea that there's a kind of an so the idea that there's a kind of an so the idea that there's a kind of an inevitable inevitable inevitable march towards uh march towards uh march towards uh complexity and and um complexity and and um complexity and and um sentient life i don't think he's right sentient life i don't think he's right sentient life i don't think he's right doesn't not to say it's not going to doesn't not to say it's not going to doesn't not to say it's not going to happen happen happen but i think it's not going to happen but i think it's not going to happen but i think it's not going to happen often often often so if you think of earth given the

so if you think of earth given the so if you think of earth given the geological constraints and all that kind geological constraints and all that kind geological constraints and all that kind of stuff do you have a sense that life complex do you have a sense that life complex life intelligent life happen really life intelligent life happen really life intelligent life happen really quickly on earth over the long quickly on earth over the long quickly on earth over the long so so so just just to get a sense of just just to get a sense of just just to get a sense of are you more sort of saying that it's are you more sort of saying that it's are you more sort of saying that it's very unlikely to get the kind of very unlikely to get the kind of very unlikely to get the kind of conditions required to create humans or conditions required to create humans or conditions required to create humans or is it even if you have the condition is it even if you have the condition is it even if you have the condition it's just statistically difficult i it's just statistically difficult i it's just statistically difficult i think the i mean the problem the single think the i mean the problem the single think the i mean the problem the single great problem at the center of all of great problem at the center of all of great problem at the center of all of that to my mind is the origin of the that to my mind is the origin of the that to my mind is the origin of the eukaryotic cell which happened once and eukaryotic cell which happened once and eukaryotic cell which happened once and without eukaryotes nothing else would without eukaryotes nothing else would without eukaryotes nothing else would have happened have happened have happened and and that is something that and and that is something that and and that is something that that's because you're saying it's super that's because you're saying it's super that's because you're saying it's super important the eukaryotes but i'm saying important the eukaryotes but i'm saying important the eukaryotes but i'm saying tantamount to saying that it is tantamount to saying that it is tantamount to saying that it is impossible to build something as complex impossible to build something as complex impossible to build something as complex as a human being from bacterial cells i as a human being from bacterial cells i as a human being from bacterial cells i totally agree in some deep fundamental totally agree in some deep fundamental totally agree in some deep fundamental way but it's just like a one cell going way but it's just like a one cell going way but it's just like a one cell going inside another inside another inside another it's not so difficult to get to work it's not so difficult to get to work it's not so difficult to get to work right like right like right like well again it happened once well again it happened once well again it happened once um and um and um and if you think about if you if you think if you think about if you if you think if you think about if you if you think i mean i'm in a minority view in this i mean i'm in a minority view in this i mean i'm in a minority view in this position most biologists probably position most biologists probably position most biologists probably wouldn't agree with me anyway but if you wouldn't agree with me anyway but if you wouldn't agree with me anyway but if you think about the the starting point we've think about the the starting point we've think about the the starting point we've we've got a simple cell it's an archaeal we've got a simple cell it's an archaeal we've got a simple cell it's an archaeal cell we can be fairly sure about that so cell we can be fairly sure about that so cell we can be fairly sure about that so it looks a lot like a bacterium it looks a lot like a bacterium it looks a lot like a bacterium but is in fact from this other other but is in fact from this other other but is in fact from this other other domain of life so it looks a lot like a domain of life so it looks a lot like a domain of life so it looks a lot like a bacterial cell that means it doesn't bacterial cell that means it doesn't bacterial cell that means it doesn't have anything it doesn't have a nucleus have anything it doesn't have a nucleus have anything it doesn't have a nucleus it doesn't really have it doesn't really have it doesn't really have complex endo membrane it has it has a

complex endo membrane it has it has a complex endo membrane it has it has a little bit of stuff but not not that little bit of stuff but not not that little bit of stuff but not not that much much much and it takes up an endless inbound and it takes up an endless inbound and it takes up an endless inbound so what happens so what happens so what happens next next next and the answer is basically everything and the answer is basically everything and the answer is basically everything to do with complexity to do with complexity to do with complexity to me there's a beautiful paradox here plants and animals and fungi plants and animals and fungi all have exactly the same type of cell all have exactly the same type of cell all have exactly the same type of cell but they all have really different ways but they all have really different ways but they all have really different ways of living so a plant cell of living so a plant cell of living so a plant cell it's photosynthetic it's photosynthetic it's photosynthetic they started out as algae in the oceans they started out as algae in the oceans they started out as algae in the oceans and so on so think of algal blooms and so on so think of algal blooms and so on so think of algal blooms single cell things you know the the single cell things you know the the single cell things you know the the basic basic basic uh uh uh the basic cell structure that it's built the basic cell structure that it's built the basic cell structure that it's built from is exactly the same with a couple from is exactly the same with a couple from is exactly the same with a couple of small differences it's got of small differences it's got of small differences it's got chloroplasts as well it's got a vacuole chloroplasts as well it's got a vacuole chloroplasts as well it's got a vacuole it's got a cell wall but that's about it it's got a cell wall but that's about it it's got a cell wall but that's about it pretty much everything else is exactly pretty much everything else is exactly pretty much everything else is exactly the same in a plant cell and an animal the same in a plant cell and an animal the same in a plant cell and an animal cell cell cell and yet the ways of life are completely and yet the ways of life are completely and yet the ways of life are completely different so this these this cell different so this these this cell different so this these this cell structure did not evolve in response to structure did not evolve in response to structure did not evolve in response to different ways of life different different ways of life different different ways of life different environments i'm in the ocean doing environments i'm in the ocean doing environments i'm in the ocean doing photosynthesis i'm on land running photosynthesis i'm on land running photosynthesis i'm on land running around as part of an animal uh i'm a around as part of an animal uh i'm a around as part of an animal uh i'm a fungus in a soil fungus in a soil fungus in a soil spending out long kind of shoots into spending out long kind of shoots into spending out long kind of shoots into whatever it may be whatever it may be whatever it may be mycelium so mycelium so mycelium so they all have the same underlying cell they all have the same underlying cell they all have the same underlying cell structure why structure why structure why almost certainly it was driven by almost certainly it was driven by almost certainly it was driven by adaptation to the internal environment adaptation to the internal environment adaptation to the internal environment to having these pesky endosymbionts to having these pesky endosymbionts to having these pesky endosymbionts forced all kinds of change on on the forced all kinds of change on on the forced all kinds of change on on the host cell now in one way you could see host cell now in one way you could see host cell now in one way you could see that as a really good thing because it that as a really good thing because it that as a really good thing because it may be that there's some inevitability

may be that there's some inevitability may be that there's some inevitability to this process as soon as you've got to this process as soon as you've got to this process as soon as you've got endless imbalance you're more or less endless imbalance you're more or less endless imbalance you're more or less bound to go in that direction or it bound to go in that direction or it bound to go in that direction or it could be that there's a huge fluke about could be that there's a huge fluke about could be that there's a huge fluke about it and it's almost certain to go wrong it and it's almost certain to go wrong it and it's almost certain to go wrong in just about every case possible that in just about every case possible that in just about every case possible that the conflict will lead to effectively the conflict will lead to effectively the conflict will lead to effectively war leading to death and extinction uh war leading to death and extinction uh war leading to death and extinction uh and it simply doesn't work out so maybe and it simply doesn't work out so maybe and it simply doesn't work out so maybe it happened millions of times and it it happened millions of times and it it happened millions of times and it went wrong every time or maybe it only went wrong every time or maybe it only went wrong every time or maybe it only happened once happened once happened once and it worked out because it was and it worked out because it was and it worked out because it was inevitable and actually we simply do not inevitable and actually we simply do not inevitable and actually we simply do not know enough now to say which of those know enough now to say which of those know enough now to say which of those two possibilities is true but both of two possibilities is true but both of two possibilities is true but both of them are a bit grim but you're them are a bit grim but you're them are a bit grim but you're you're leaning towards you're leaning towards you're leaning towards we just got really lucky in that one we just got really lucky in that one we just got really lucky in that one leap leap leap like we got so do you have a sense that like we got so do you have a sense that like we got so do you have a sense that our galaxy for example has just our galaxy for example has just our galaxy for example has just maybe millions of planets with bacteria maybe millions of planets with bacteria maybe millions of planets with bacteria living on it i would expect billions living on it i would expect billions living on it i would expect billions tens of billions of planets with tens of billions of planets with tens of billions of planets with bacteria living on it practically i bacteria living on it practically i bacteria living on it practically i would i would i mean there's probably would i would i mean there's probably would i would i mean there's probably what five to ten planets per star what five to ten planets per star what five to ten planets per star of which i would hope that at least one of which i would hope that at least one of which i would hope that at least one would have bacteria on would have bacteria on would have bacteria on so i expect bacteria to be very common so i expect bacteria to be very common so i expect bacteria to be very common i i simply can't put a number otherwise i i simply can't put a number otherwise i i simply can't put a number otherwise i mean i expect it will happen elsewhere i mean i expect it will happen elsewhere i mean i expect it will happen elsewhere it's not that i think we're living in a it's not that i think we're living in a it's not that i think we're living in a completely empty universe that's so fast completely empty universe that's so fast completely empty universe that's so fast but i think that it's not going to but i think that it's not going to but i think that it's not going to happen inevitably and there's something happen inevitably and there's something happen inevitably and there's something you know it wasn't that's not the only you know it wasn't that's not the only you know it wasn't that's not the only problem with uh with with problem with uh with with problem with uh with with complex life on earth i mentioned oxygen complex life on earth i mentioned oxygen complex life on earth i mentioned oxygen animals and so on as well and even animals and so on as well and even animals and so on as well and even humans we came along very late you go humans we came along very late you go humans we came along very late you go back five million years and you know back five million years and you know back five million years and you know would we be that impressed if we came would we be that impressed if we came would we be that impressed if we came across a planet full of giraffes across a planet full of giraffes across a planet full of giraffes i mean you'd think hey there's life here

i mean you'd think hey there's life here i mean you'd think hey there's life here and there's a nice planet to colonize or and there's a nice planet to colonize or and there's a nice planet to colonize or something we wouldn't think oh let's try something we wouldn't think oh let's try something we wouldn't think oh let's try and have a conversation with this and have a conversation with this and have a conversation with this giraffe giraffe giraffe yeah i'm not sure what exactly we would yeah i'm not sure what exactly we would yeah i'm not sure what exactly we would think think think i'm not exactly sure what makes humans i'm not exactly sure what makes humans i'm not exactly sure what makes humans so interesting from an alien perspective so interesting from an alien perspective so interesting from an alien perspective or how they would notice i'll talk to or how they would notice i'll talk to or how they would notice i'll talk to you about cities too because that's an you about cities too because that's an you about cities too because that's an interesting perspective of uh how to interesting perspective of uh how to interesting perspective of uh how to look at human civilization look at human civilization look at human civilization but your sense i mean of course you but your sense i mean of course you but your sense i mean of course you don't know but it's an interesting don't know but it's an interesting don't know but it's an interesting world it's an interesting galaxy it's an world it's an interesting galaxy it's an world it's an interesting galaxy it's an interesting universe to live in that's interesting universe to live in that's interesting universe to live in that's just like just like just like every sun every sun every sun like 90 percent like 90 percent like 90 percent of uh of uh of uh solar systems solar systems solar systems have bacteria in it have bacteria in it have bacteria in it like imagine that world like imagine that world like imagine that world and and and the galaxy maybe has the galaxy maybe has the galaxy maybe has just a handful if not one just a handful if not one just a handful if not one intelligent civilization intelligent civilization intelligent civilization that's a wild world and so wow i didn't that's a wild world and so wow i didn't that's a wild world and so wow i didn't even even think about that world there's even even think about that world there's even even think about that world there's a kind of a kind of a kind of thought that thought that thought that like one of the reasons it would be so like one of the reasons it would be so like one of the reasons it would be so exciting to find life on mars or titan exciting to find life on mars or titan exciting to find life on mars or titan or whatever it's like if it's life is or whatever it's like if it's life is or whatever it's like if it's life is elsewhere then surely elsewhere then surely elsewhere then surely statistically statistically statistically that life no matter how unlikely your that life no matter how unlikely your that life no matter how unlikely your query has multi-cell organisms query has multi-cell organisms query has multi-cell organisms sex sex sex violence violence violence what what else is extremely difficult i what what else is extremely difficult i what what else is extremely difficult i mean uh photosynthesis mean uh photosynthesis mean uh photosynthesis is figuring out some machinery that

is figuring out some machinery that is figuring out some machinery that involves the chemistry and the involves the chemistry and the involves the chemistry and the environment to allow the building up of environment to allow the building up of environment to allow the building up of complex organisms surely that would complex organisms surely that would complex organisms surely that would arise arise arise but man i don't know how i would feel but man i don't know how i would feel but man i don't know how i would feel about just bacteria everywhere well it about just bacteria everywhere well it about just bacteria everywhere well it would be depressing if it was true would be depressing if it was true would be depressing if it was true i suppose i suppose i suppose i don't think natural i don't know i don't think natural i don't know i don't think natural i don't know what's more depressing bacteria what's more depressing bacteria what's more depressing bacteria everywhere nothing everywhere everywhere nothing everywhere everywhere nothing everywhere yes either of them are chilling yeah but yes either of them are chilling yeah but yes either of them are chilling yeah but whether it's chilling or not i don't whether it's chilling or not i don't whether it's chilling or not i don't think should think should think should force us to change our view about force us to change our view about force us to change our view about whether it's real or not whether it's real or not whether it's real or not and what i'm saying may or may not be and what i'm saying may or may not be and what i'm saying may or may not be true so how would you feel if we true so how would you feel if we true so how would you feel if we discovered life on mars discovered life on mars discovered life on mars absolutely it sounds like you would be absolutely it sounds like you would be absolutely it sounds like you would be less excited than some others less excited than some others less excited than some others because you're like well what i would be because you're like well what i would be because you're like well what i would be most interested in is how similar to most interested in is how similar to most interested in is how similar to life on earth it would be it would life on earth it would be it would life on earth it would be it would actually turn into quite a subtle actually turn into quite a subtle actually turn into quite a subtle problem because problem because problem because the the the the likelihood of life having gone to the likelihood of life having gone to the likelihood of life having gone to and fro between between mars and the and fro between between mars and the and fro between between mars and the earth is earth is earth is is quite i wouldn't say high but it's is quite i wouldn't say high but it's is quite i wouldn't say high but it's not low it's quite feasible not low it's quite feasible not low it's quite feasible and so if we found life on mars and it and so if we found life on mars and it and so if we found life on mars and it had had had very similar genetic code but it was very similar genetic code but it was very similar genetic code but it was slightly different slightly different slightly different most people would interpret that most people would interpret that most people would interpret that immediately as evidence that they've immediately as evidence that they've immediately as evidence that they've been transit one way or the other and been transit one way or the other and been transit one way or the other and that it was a it was a common origin of that it was a it was a common origin of that it was a it was a common origin of life on mars or on the earth and he went life on mars or on the earth and he went life on mars or on the earth and he went one way the other way the other way to one way the other way the other way to one way the other way the other way to see that question though would be to say see that question though would be to say see that question though would be to say well actually though the beginnings of well actually though the beginnings of well actually though the beginnings of life lie in deterministic chemistry and life lie in deterministic chemistry and life lie in deterministic chemistry and thermodynamics starting with the most thermodynamics starting with the most thermodynamics starting with the most likely abundant materials co2 and water likely abundant materials co2 and water likely abundant materials co2 and water and a wet rocky planet and mars was wet

and a wet rocky planet and mars was wet and a wet rocky planet and mars was wet and rocky at the beginning uh and will i and rocky at the beginning uh and will i and rocky at the beginning uh and will i won't say inevitably but potentially won't say inevitably but potentially won't say inevitably but potentially almost inevitably come up with a genetic almost inevitably come up with a genetic almost inevitably come up with a genetic code which is not very far away from the code which is not very far away from the code which is not very far away from the genetic code that we already have genetic code that we already have genetic code that we already have so we see subtle differences in the so we see subtle differences in the so we see subtle differences in the genetic code what does it mean it could genetic code what does it mean it could genetic code what does it mean it could be very difficult to interpret is it be very difficult to interpret is it be very difficult to interpret is it possible you think to tell the possible you think to tell the possible you think to tell the difference difference difference or something that truly originated or something that truly originated or something that truly originated i think if the stereochemistry was i think if the stereochemistry was i think if the stereochemistry was different different different we have sugars for example that are the we have sugars for example that are the we have sugars for example that are the l form or the d form and and l form or the d form and and l form or the d form and and we have we have we have uh d sugars and l amino acids right uh d sugars and l amino acids right uh d sugars and l amino acids right across all of life but lipids across all of life but lipids across all of life but lipids uh we have the bacteria have one one uh we have the bacteria have one one uh we have the bacteria have one one stereoisomer and the bacteria have the stereoisomer and the bacteria have the stereoisomer and the bacteria have the other the opposite stereoisomer other the opposite stereoisomer other the opposite stereoisomer so it's perfectly possible to use one or so it's perfectly possible to use one or so it's perfectly possible to use one or the other one the other one the other one uh and the same would almost certainly uh and the same would almost certainly uh and the same would almost certainly go for i think george church go for i think george church go for i think george church has been trying to make life based on has been trying to make life based on has been trying to make life based on the opposite stereoisomer the opposite stereoisomer the opposite stereoisomer so it's perfectly possible to do and it so it's perfectly possible to do and it so it's perfectly possible to do and it will work um will work um will work um and if we were to find life on mars that and if we were to find life on mars that and if we were to find life on mars that was using the opposite stereoisomer that was using the opposite stereoisomer that was using the opposite stereoisomer that would be unequivocal evidence that life would be unequivocal evidence that life would be unequivocal evidence that life had started independently there so had started independently there so had started independently there so hopefully hopefully hopefully the life we find will be on titan and the life we find will be on titan and the life we find will be on titan and europa or something like that where it's europa or something like that where it's europa or something like that where it's less likely that we shared and it's less likely that we shared and it's less likely that we shared and it's harsher conditions so there's going to harsher conditions so there's going to harsher conditions so there's going to be weirder kind of life be weirder kind of life be weirder kind of life i wouldn't count on that because i wouldn't count on that because i wouldn't count on that because life started in deep sea hydrothermal life started in deep sea hydrothermal life started in deep sea hydrothermal vents it's harsh that's pretty harsh vents it's harsh that's pretty harsh vents it's harsh that's pretty harsh yeah so titan is different europa is

yeah so titan is different europa is yeah so titan is different europa is probably quite similar to earth in the probably quite similar to earth in the probably quite similar to earth in the sense that we're dealing with an ocean sense that we're dealing with an ocean sense that we're dealing with an ocean it's an acidic ocean there it's an acidic ocean there it's an acidic ocean there um as the early earth would have been um as the early earth would have been um as the early earth would have been and it almost only has hydrothermal and it almost only has hydrothermal and it almost only has hydrothermal systems same with enceladus we can tell systems same with enceladus we can tell systems same with enceladus we can tell that from these plumes coming from the that from these plumes coming from the that from these plumes coming from the surface through the ice we know there's surface through the ice we know there's surface through the ice we know there's a liquid ocean and we we can tell a liquid ocean and we we can tell a liquid ocean and we we can tell roughly what the chemistry is roughly what the chemistry is roughly what the chemistry is for titan we're dealing with liquid for titan we're dealing with liquid for titan we're dealing with liquid methane and things like that so that methane and things like that so that methane and things like that so that would really if there really is life would really if there really is life would really if there really is life there it would really have to be very there it would really have to be very there it would really have to be very very different to anything very different to anything very different to anything uh that we know on earth uh that we know on earth uh that we know on earth so the hard leap the hardest sleep the so the hard leap the hardest sleep the so the hard leap the hardest sleep the most important leap is from most important leap is from most important leap is from precarious to to eukaryotes eukaryotic precarious to to eukaryotes eukaryotic precarious to to eukaryotes eukaryotic what's the second what's the second what's the second if we're ranking what's what's the if we're ranking what's what's the if we're ranking what's what's the what's uh you gave a lot of emphasis on what's uh you gave a lot of emphasis on what's uh you gave a lot of emphasis on photosynthesis yeah and that would be my photosynthesis yeah and that would be my photosynthesis yeah and that would be my second one i think but it's it's not so second one i think but it's it's not so second one i think but it's it's not so much i mean photosynthesis is part of much i mean photosynthesis is part of much i mean photosynthesis is part of the problem the problem the problem it's a difficult thing to do it's a difficult thing to do it's a difficult thing to do again again again we know it happened once we don't know we know it happened once we don't know we know it happened once we don't know why it happened once why it happened once why it happened once um um um but but but the fact that the fact that the fact that it it it was kind of taken on board completely by was kind of taken on board completely by was kind of taken on board completely by plants and algae and so on as plants and algae and so on as plants and algae and so on as chloroplasts chloroplasts chloroplasts and and and did very well in completely different did very well in completely different did very well in completely different environments and then on land and environments and then on land and environments and then on land and whatever else seems to suggest that whatever else seems to suggest that whatever else seems to suggest that there's no there's no there's no there's no problem with exploring there's no problem with exploring there's no problem with exploring whether you know you could have a whether you know you could have a whether you know you could have a separate origin that explored this whole separate origin that explored this whole separate origin that explored this whole domain over there that the bacteria had domain over there that the bacteria had domain over there that the bacteria had never gone into never gone into never gone into um um um so that kind of says that the reason

so that kind of says that the reason so that kind of says that the reason that it only happened once is probably that it only happened once is probably that it only happened once is probably because it's difficult because the because it's difficult because the because it's difficult because the wiring is difficult wiring is difficult wiring is difficult yeah um but then it it happened at least yeah um but then it it happened at least yeah um but then it it happened at least 2.2 billion years ago right before the 2.2 billion years ago right before the 2.2 billion years ago right before the goe maybe as long as three billion years goe maybe as long as three billion years goe maybe as long as three billion years ago when there are some people say there ago when there are some people say there ago when there are some people say there are whiffs of oxygen there's just kind are whiffs of oxygen there's just kind are whiffs of oxygen there's just kind of traces in the fossil in the in the of traces in the fossil in the in the of traces in the fossil in the in the geochemical record that say maybe geochemical record that say maybe geochemical record that say maybe there's a bit of oxygen then that's there's a bit of oxygen then that's there's a bit of oxygen then that's really disputed some people say he goes really disputed some people say he goes really disputed some people say he goes all the way back four billion years ago all the way back four billion years ago all the way back four billion years ago and and um it was the common ancestor of and and um it was the common ancestor of and and um it was the common ancestor of life on earth was photosynthetic so life on earth was photosynthetic so life on earth was photosynthetic so immediately you've got you know groups immediately you've got you know groups immediately you've got you know groups of people who disagree over a two of people who disagree over a two of people who disagree over a two billion year period of time about when billion year period of time about when billion year period of time about when it started it started it started um but well let's take the latest date when it's let's take the latest date when it's unequivocal that's 2.2 billion years ago unequivocal that's 2.2 billion years ago unequivocal that's 2.2 billion years ago through to around about the time of the through to around about the time of the through to around about the time of the cambrian explosion when oxygen levels cambrian explosion when oxygen levels cambrian explosion when oxygen levels definitely got close to modern levels uh definitely got close to modern levels uh definitely got close to modern levels uh which was around about 550 million years which was around about 550 million years which was around about 550 million years ago so we've gone more than one and a ago so we've gone more than one and a ago so we've gone more than one and a half billion years half billion years half billion years where the earth was in stasis where the earth was in stasis where the earth was in stasis um nothing much changed it's known as um nothing much changed it's known as um nothing much changed it's known as the boring billion in fact the boring billion in fact the boring billion in fact um uh probably stuff was that was when um uh probably stuff was that was when um uh probably stuff was that was when you carries arose somewhere in there but you carries arose somewhere in there but you carries arose somewhere in there but it's uh so this idea that the world is so this idea that the world is constantly changing that we're constantly changing that we're constantly changing that we're constantly evolving that we're moving up constantly evolving that we're moving up constantly evolving that we're moving up some ramp it's a very human idea but in some ramp it's a very human idea but in some ramp it's a very human idea but in reality reality reality though though though there are there are there are um um um there there are kind of there there are kind of there there are kind of tipping points to a new stable tipping points to a new stable tipping points to a new stable equilibrium where the

equilibrium where the equilibrium where the cells that are producing oxygen are cells that are producing oxygen are cells that are producing oxygen are precisely counterbalanced by the cells precisely counterbalanced by the cells precisely counterbalanced by the cells that are consuming that oxygen which is that are consuming that oxygen which is that are consuming that oxygen which is why it's 21 why it's 21 why it's 21 now and has been that way for hundreds now and has been that way for hundreds now and has been that way for hundreds of millions of years we have a very of millions of years we have a very of millions of years we have a very precise balance you go through a tipping precise balance you go through a tipping precise balance you go through a tipping point and you don't know where the next point and you don't know where the next point and you don't know where the next stable state is going to be but it can stable state is going to be but it can stable state is going to be but it can be a long way from here be a long way from here be a long way from here and so if we change the world with and so if we change the world with and so if we change the world with global warming there will be a tipping global warming there will be a tipping global warming there will be a tipping point question is where and when and point question is where and when and point question is where and when and what's the next stable state it may be what's the next stable state it may be what's the next stable state it may be uninhabitable to us it'll be habitable uninhabitable to us it'll be habitable uninhabitable to us it'll be habitable to life to life to life for sure for sure for sure but there may be something like the but there may be something like the but there may be something like the permian extinction where 95 of species permian extinction where 95 of species permian extinction where 95 of species go extinct and there's a five to ten go extinct and there's a five to ten go extinct and there's a five to ten million year gap and then life recovers million year gap and then life recovers million year gap and then life recovers but but but without humans and the question without humans and the question without humans and the question statistically well without humans but statistically well without humans but statistically well without humans but statistically does that ultimately lead statistically does that ultimately lead statistically does that ultimately lead to greater complexity more interesting to greater complexity more interesting to greater complexity more interesting life life life more intense well after the first more intense well after the first more intense well after the first appearance of oxygen appearance of oxygen appearance of oxygen with the goe there was a tipping point with the goe there was a tipping point with the goe there was a tipping point which led to a long-term stable state which led to a long-term stable state which led to a long-term stable state that was equivalent to the black sea that was equivalent to the black sea that was equivalent to the black sea today which is to say oxygenated at the today which is to say oxygenated at the today which is to say oxygenated at the very surface and stagnant sterile not very surface and stagnant sterile not very surface and stagnant sterile not sterile but um but sulfurous lower down sterile but um but sulfurous lower down sterile but um but sulfurous lower down um um um and and and and that was stable certainly around the and that was stable certainly around the and that was stable certainly around the continental margins for more than a continental margins for more than a continental margins for more than a billion years uh it was not a state that billion years uh it was not a state that billion years uh it was not a state that led to progression in an obvious way led to progression in an obvious way led to progression in an obvious way um um um yeah i mean it's interesting to think yeah i mean it's interesting to think yeah i mean it's interesting to think about evolution like what leads to about evolution like what leads to about evolution like what leads to stable states stable states stable states and uh and uh and uh how often are

evolutionary pressures evolutionary pressures emerging from the environment emerging from the environment emerging from the environment so so so maybe other planets are able to create maybe other planets are able to create maybe other planets are able to create evolutionary pressures chemical evolutionary pressures chemical evolutionary pressures chemical pressures whatever some kind of pressure pressures whatever some kind of pressure pressures whatever some kind of pressure that say you're screwed unless you get that say you're screwed unless you get that say you're screwed unless you get your together in the next your together in the next your together in the next like like like 10 000 years like a lot of pressure 10 000 years like a lot of pressure 10 000 years like a lot of pressure uh it seems like earth like the boring uh it seems like earth like the boring uh it seems like earth like the boring building might be explained building might be explained building might be explained in two ways one it's super difficult to in two ways one it's super difficult to in two ways one it's super difficult to take any kind of next step take any kind of next step take any kind of next step and uh the second way could be explained and uh the second way could be explained and uh the second way could be explained is there's no reason to take the next is there's no reason to take the next is there's no reason to take the next step no i think there is no reason but step no i think there is no reason but step no i think there is no reason but at the end of it there was a there was a at the end of it there was a there was a at the end of it there was a there was a snowball earth snowball earth snowball earth um so there was a planetary catastrophe um so there was a planetary catastrophe um so there was a planetary catastrophe on a huge scale where the the the on a huge scale where the the the on a huge scale where the the the ice was the the sea was frozen at the ice was the the sea was frozen at the ice was the the sea was frozen at the equator equator equator um um um and that forced change and that forced change and that forced change in one way or another it's not long in one way or another it's not long in one way or another it's not long after that 100 million years perhaps after that 100 million years perhaps after that 100 million years perhaps after that so not short time but this is after that so not short time but this is after that so not short time but this is when we begin to see animals there was a when we begin to see animals there was a when we begin to see animals there was a shift again another tipping point that shift again another tipping point that shift again another tipping point that led to catastrophic change that led to a led to catastrophic change that led to a led to catastrophic change that led to a takeoff then takeoff then takeoff then we don't really know why but one of the we don't really know why but one of the we don't really know why but one of the reasons why that i discuss in the book reasons why that i discuss in the book reasons why that i discuss in the book um um um is about is about is about sulfate being washed into the oceans sulfate being washed into the oceans sulfate being washed into the oceans which sounds incredibly parochial which sounds incredibly parochial which sounds incredibly parochial but but but the the the the issue is i mean that what the data the issue is i mean that what the data the issue is i mean that what the data is showing we can we can track roughly is showing we can we can track roughly is showing we can we can track roughly how oxygen was going into the atmosphere how oxygen was going into the atmosphere how oxygen was going into the atmosphere from from from um um um from carbon isotopes so there's two from carbon isotopes so there's two from carbon isotopes so there's two there's two main isotopes of carbon that

there's two main isotopes of carbon that there's two main isotopes of carbon that we need to think about here one is we need to think about here one is we need to think about here one is carbon-12 99 of carbon is carbon-12 and carbon-12 99 of carbon is carbon-12 and carbon-12 99 of carbon is carbon-12 and then one percent of carbon is carbon-13 then one percent of carbon is carbon-13 then one percent of carbon is carbon-13 which is a stable isotope and then which is a stable isotope and then which is a stable isotope and then there's carbon-14 which is a trivial there's carbon-14 which is a trivial there's carbon-14 which is a trivial radioactive estrogen amount radioactive estrogen amount radioactive estrogen amount so 13 is one percent so 13 is one percent so 13 is one percent and and and life and enzymes generally life and enzymes generally life and enzymes generally you can think of carbon atoms as you can think of carbon atoms as you can think of carbon atoms as little balls bouncing around bing bong little balls bouncing around bing bong little balls bouncing around bing bong balls bouncing around carbon 12 moves a balls bouncing around carbon 12 moves a balls bouncing around carbon 12 moves a little bit faster than carbon 13 because little bit faster than carbon 13 because little bit faster than carbon 13 because it's lighter it's lighter it's lighter and it's more likely to encounter an and it's more likely to encounter an and it's more likely to encounter an enzyme enzyme enzyme and so it's more likely to be fixed into and so it's more likely to be fixed into and so it's more likely to be fixed into organic matter organic matter organic matter and so organic matter is enriched and and so organic matter is enriched and and so organic matter is enriched and this is just an observation it's this is just an observation it's this is just an observation it's enriched in carbon 12 by a few percent enriched in carbon 12 by a few percent enriched in carbon 12 by a few percent compared to carbon 13 relative to what compared to carbon 13 relative to what compared to carbon 13 relative to what you would expect if it was just equal you would expect if it was just equal you would expect if it was just equal and and and if you then bury organic matter if you then bury organic matter if you then bury organic matter as coal or as coal or as coal or oil or whatever it may be oil or whatever it may be oil or whatever it may be then it's no longer oxidized so some then it's no longer oxidized so some then it's no longer oxidized so some oxygen remains left over in in the oxygen remains left over in in the oxygen remains left over in in the atmosphere and that's how oxygen atmosphere and that's how oxygen atmosphere and that's how oxygen accumulates in the atmosphere and you accumulates in the atmosphere and you accumulates in the atmosphere and you can work out historically how much can work out historically how much can work out historically how much oxygen there must have been in the oxygen there must have been in the oxygen there must have been in the atmosphere by how much atmosphere by how much atmosphere by how much carbon was being buried and you think carbon was being buried and you think carbon was being buried and you think well how can we possibly know how much well how can we possibly know how much well how can we possibly know how much carbon was being buried and the answer carbon was being buried and the answer carbon was being buried and the answer is well if you're burying carbon 12 is well if you're burying carbon 12 is well if you're burying carbon 12 what you're leaving behind is more what you're leaving behind is more what you're leaving behind is more carbon 13 in the oceans and that carbon 13 in the oceans and that carbon 13 in the oceans and that precipitates out in limestone so you can precipitates out in limestone so you can precipitates out in limestone so you can look at limestones over these ages and look at limestones over these ages and look at limestones over these ages and work out what's the carbon 13 signal work out what's the carbon 13 signal work out what's the carbon 13 signal and that gives you a kind of a feedback and that gives you a kind of a feedback and that gives you a kind of a feedback on what they want the oxygen content on what they want the oxygen content on what they want the oxygen content right before the cambrian explosion right before the cambrian explosion right before the cambrian explosion there was what's called a negative there was what's called a negative there was what's called a negative isotope anomaly excursion which is

isotope anomaly excursion which is isotope anomaly excursion which is basically the carbon 13 goes down by a basically the carbon 13 goes down by a basically the carbon 13 goes down by a massive amount and then back up again 10 massive amount and then back up again 10 massive amount and then back up again 10 million years later million years later million years later and what that seems to be saying is the and what that seems to be saying is the and what that seems to be saying is the amount of carbon 12 in the oceans amount of carbon 12 in the oceans amount of carbon 12 in the oceans um um um was was disappearing was was disappearing was was disappearing which is to say it was being oxidized which is to say it was being oxidized which is to say it was being oxidized um and if it's being oxidized it's um and if it's being oxidized it's um and if it's being oxidized it's consuming oxygen and that should so a consuming oxygen and that should so a consuming oxygen and that should so a big carbon 13 signal says that the ratio big carbon 13 signal says that the ratio big carbon 13 signal says that the ratio of carbon 12 to carbon 13 is is really of carbon 12 to carbon 13 is is really of carbon 12 to carbon 13 is is really going down which means there's going down which means there's going down which means there's there's much more carbon 12 being taken there's much more carbon 12 being taken there's much more carbon 12 being taken out and being oxidized sorry this is out and being oxidized sorry this is out and being oxidized sorry this is getting too complex but well it's a good getting too complex but well it's a good getting too complex but well it's a good it's a good way to estimate the amount it's a good way to estimate the amount it's a good way to estimate the amount of oxygen if you calculate the amount of of oxygen if you calculate the amount of of oxygen if you calculate the amount of oxygen based on the assumption that all oxygen based on the assumption that all oxygen based on the assumption that all this carbon 12 that's being taken out is this carbon 12 that's being taken out is this carbon 12 that's being taken out is being oxidized by oxygen the answer is being oxidized by oxygen the answer is being oxidized by oxygen the answer is all the oxygen in the atmosphere gets all the oxygen in the atmosphere gets all the oxygen in the atmosphere gets stripped out there is none left yeah um stripped out there is none left yeah um stripped out there is none left yeah um and yet the rest of the geological and yet the rest of the geological and yet the rest of the geological indicators say no there's oxygen in the indicators say no there's oxygen in the indicators say no there's oxygen in the atmosphere atmosphere atmosphere so it's a kind of a paradox and and the so it's a kind of a paradox and and the so it's a kind of a paradox and and the only way to explain this paradox just on only way to explain this paradox just on only way to explain this paradox just on mass balance of how much stuff is in the mass balance of how much stuff is in the mass balance of how much stuff is in the air how much stuff is in the oceans and air how much stuff is in the oceans and air how much stuff is in the oceans and so on um is to assume that it what so on um is to assume that it what so on um is to assume that it what oxygen was not the oxygen it was sulfate oxygen was not the oxygen it was sulfate oxygen was not the oxygen it was sulfate sulfate was being washed into the oceans sulfate was being washed into the oceans sulfate was being washed into the oceans it's used as an electron acceptor by it's used as an electron acceptor by it's used as an electron acceptor by sulfate reducing bacteria just as we use sulfate reducing bacteria just as we use sulfate reducing bacteria just as we use oxygen as an electron acceptor so they oxygen as an electron acceptor so they oxygen as an electron acceptor so they pass their electrons to sulfate instead pass their electrons to sulfate instead pass their electrons to sulfate instead of oxygen of oxygen of oxygen anterior did yeah yeah so these are anterior did yeah yeah so these are anterior did yeah yeah so these are these are these are bacteria so they're these are these are bacteria so they're these are these are bacteria so they're oxidizing carbon organic carbon

oxidizing carbon organic carbon oxidizing carbon organic carbon with sulfate passing the electrons onto with sulfate passing the electrons onto with sulfate passing the electrons onto sulfate that sulfate that sulfate that reacts with iron to form iron pyrites or reacts with iron to form iron pyrites or reacts with iron to form iron pyrites or fool's gold sinks down to the bottom fool's gold sinks down to the bottom fool's gold sinks down to the bottom gets buried out of the system gets buried out of the system gets buried out of the system and this can account for the mass and this can account for the mass and this can account for the mass balance so why does it matter balance so why does it matter balance so why does it matter it matters because it matters because it matters because what it says is there was a chance event what it says is there was a chance event what it says is there was a chance event tectonically there was a lot of sulfate tectonically there was a lot of sulfate tectonically there was a lot of sulfate sitting on land as a some kind of sitting on land as a some kind of sitting on land as a some kind of mineral mineral mineral so calcium sulfate minerals for example so calcium sulfate minerals for example so calcium sulfate minerals for example are evaporitic are evaporitic are evaporitic um and and um because there happened to um and and um because there happened to um and and um because there happened to be some continents some continental be some continents some continental be some continents some continental collisions mountain building this collisions mountain building this collisions mountain building this sulfate was pushed up the side of a sulfate was pushed up the side of a sulfate was pushed up the side of a mountain and happened to get washed into mountain and happened to get washed into mountain and happened to get washed into the ocean the ocean the ocean yeah so yeah so yeah so many happy accidents like that are many happy accidents like that are many happy accidents like that are possible statistically it's really hard possible statistically it's really hard possible statistically it's really hard you know maybe you can roll that in you know maybe you can roll that in you know maybe you can roll that in statistically or but this is the course statistically or but this is the course statistically or but this is the course of life on earth without all that of life on earth without all that of life on earth without all that sulfate being raised up this cambrian sulfate being raised up this cambrian sulfate being raised up this cambrian explosion almost certainly would not explosion almost certainly would not explosion almost certainly would not have happened have happened have happened and then we wouldn't have had animals and then we wouldn't have had animals and then we wouldn't have had animals and and so on and so on so it's you know and and so on and so on so it's you know and and so on and so on so it's you know it's it's it's this kind of explanation of the cambrian this kind of explanation of the cambrian this kind of explanation of the cambrian explosion explosion explosion so so so uh let me actually say in several ways uh let me actually say in several ways uh let me actually say in several ways so so so you know folks who challenge the you know folks who challenge the you know folks who challenge the validity of the uh validity of the uh validity of the uh theory of evolution theory of evolution theory of evolution will give us an example now i'm not well will give us an example now i'm not well will give us an example now i'm not well studied in this but we'll give us an studied in this but we'll give us an studied in this but we'll give us an example the camera and explosion is like example the camera and explosion is like example the camera and explosion is like this thing is weird this thing is weird this thing is weird oh i just wait oh i just wait oh i just wait so so so by

by by the question i would have the question i would have the question i would have is what's the biggest mystery is what's the biggest mystery is what's the biggest mystery or gap in understanding about evolution or gap in understanding about evolution or gap in understanding about evolution is it the cambrian explosion and if so is it the cambrian explosion and if so is it the cambrian explosion and if so how do we what's our best understanding how do we what's our best understanding how do we what's our best understanding of how to explain of how to explain of how to explain uh first of all what is it uh first of all what is it uh first of all what is it in my understanding in the short amount in my understanding in the short amount in my understanding in the short amount of time maybe 10 million years 100 of time maybe 10 million years 100 of time maybe 10 million years 100 million years something like that a huge million years something like that a huge million years something like that a huge number of animals a variety diversity of number of animals a variety diversity of number of animals a variety diversity of animals were created animals were created animals were created um um um anyway there's like five questions in anyway there's like five questions in anyway there's like five questions in there yeah is that the biggest mystery there yeah is that the biggest mystery there yeah is that the biggest mystery no i don't think that's a particularly no i don't think that's a particularly no i don't think that's a particularly big mystery really anymore i mean it's big mystery really anymore i mean it's big mystery really anymore i mean it's there are still mysteries about why then there are still mysteries about why then there are still mysteries about why then and i've just said sulfate being washed and i've just said sulfate being washed and i've just said sulfate being washed into the oceans is one it needs oxygen into the oceans is one it needs oxygen into the oceans is one it needs oxygen and oxygen levels rose around that time and oxygen levels rose around that time and oxygen levels rose around that time um so probably before that they weren't um so probably before that they weren't um so probably before that they weren't high enough for animals what we're high enough for animals what we're high enough for animals what we're seeing with the cambrian explosion is seeing with the cambrian explosion is seeing with the cambrian explosion is the beginning of the beginning of the beginning of predators and prey relationships we're predators and prey relationships we're predators and prey relationships we're seeing we're seeing uh modern ecosystems seeing we're seeing uh modern ecosystems seeing we're seeing uh modern ecosystems and we're seeing arms races and we're and we're seeing arms races and we're and we're seeing arms races and we're seeing um seeing um seeing um we're seeing the full creativity of we're seeing the full creativity of we're seeing the full creativity of evolution unleashed evolution unleashed evolution unleashed and the and the and the so i talked about the boring billion so i talked about the boring billion so i talked about the boring billion nothing happens for for you know one and nothing happens for for you know one and nothing happens for for you know one and a half one billion years one and a half a half one billion years one and a half a half one billion years one and a half billion years um billion years um billion years um the assumption and this is completely the assumption and this is completely the assumption and this is completely wrong this assumption is is that then wrong this assumption is is that then wrong this assumption is is that then that you know evolution works really that you know evolution works really that you know evolution works really slowly and that you need billions of slowly and that you need billions of slowly and that you need billions of years to years to years to affect some small change and then affect some small change and then affect some small change and then another billion years to do something

another billion years to do something another billion years to do something else it's completely wrong else it's completely wrong else it's completely wrong evolution gets stuck in a stasis and it evolution gets stuck in a stasis and it evolution gets stuck in a stasis and it stays that way for tens of millions stays that way for tens of millions stays that way for tens of millions hundreds of millions of years hundreds of millions of years hundreds of millions of years uh and stephen j gould used to argue uh and stephen j gould used to argue uh and stephen j gould used to argue this he called it punctuated equilibrium this he called it punctuated equilibrium this he called it punctuated equilibrium but he was doing it to do with animals but he was doing it to do with animals but he was doing it to do with animals and to do with the the last 500 million and to do with the the last 500 million and to do with the the last 500 million years or so where it's much less obvious years or so where it's much less obvious years or so where it's much less obvious than if you think about the entire than if you think about the entire than if you think about the entire planetary history planetary history planetary history and then you realize that the first two and then you realize that the first two and then you realize that the first two billion years was bacteria only you have billion years was bacteria only you have billion years was bacteria only you have the origin of life two billion years of the origin of life two billion years of the origin of life two billion years of just bacteria oxygenic photosynthesis just bacteria oxygenic photosynthesis just bacteria oxygenic photosynthesis arising here then you have a arising here then you have a arising here then you have a global catastrophe snowball earths and global catastrophe snowball earths and global catastrophe snowball earths and great oxidation events and then another great oxidation events and then another great oxidation events and then another billion years of nothing happening and billion years of nothing happening and billion years of nothing happening and then some some period of upheavals and then some some period of upheavals and then some some period of upheavals and then another snowball earth and then then another snowball earth and then then another snowball earth and then suddenly you see the cambrian explosion suddenly you see the cambrian explosion suddenly you see the cambrian explosion this is long periods of stasis this is long periods of stasis this is long periods of stasis where the world is in a stable state and where the world is in a stable state and where the world is in a stable state and it's not lean is not geared towards it's not lean is not geared towards it's not lean is not geared towards increasing complexity it's just increasing complexity it's just increasing complexity it's just everything is in balance everything is in balance everything is in balance and only when you have a catastrophic and only when you have a catastrophic and only when you have a catastrophic level of global level problem like a level of global level problem like a level of global level problem like a snowball earth it forces everything out snowball earth it forces everything out snowball earth it forces everything out of balance and there's a tipping point of balance and there's a tipping point of balance and there's a tipping point and you end up somewhere else now the and you end up somewhere else now the and you end up somewhere else now the idea that that idea that that idea that that evolution is slow evolution is slow evolution is slow is wrong it can be incredibly fast is wrong it can be incredibly fast is wrong it can be incredibly fast and i mentioned earlier on you can you and i mentioned earlier on you can you and i mentioned earlier on you can you know in theory it would take half a know in theory it would take half a know in theory it would take half a million years to invent an eye for million years to invent an eye for million years to invent an eye for example from a light sensitive spot it example from a light sensitive spot it example from a light sensitive spot it doesn't take long doesn't take long doesn't take long to convert to convert to convert uh you know uh you know uh you know one one one kind of tube into a tube one one one kind of tube into a tube one one one kind of tube into a tube with knobbles on it into a tube with with knobbles on it into a tube with with knobbles on it into a tube with with with arms on it and then multiple with with arms on it and then multiple with with arms on it and then multiple arms and and then at one end is the head arms and and then at one end is the head arms and and then at one end is the head where that starts out as a swelling is where that starts out as a swelling is where that starts out as a swelling is you know it's not

you know it's not you know it's not difficult consider intellectually to difficult consider intellectually to difficult consider intellectually to understand how these things can happen understand how these things can happen understand how these things can happen um um um it boggles the mind that it can happen it boggles the mind that it can happen it boggles the mind that it can happen so quickly but we're used to so quickly but we're used to so quickly but we're used to human time scales and what we need to human time scales and what we need to human time scales and what we need to talk about is generations of things that talk about is generations of things that talk about is generations of things that live for a year in the ocean live for a year in the ocean live for a year in the ocean um and and then a million years is a um and and then a million years is a um and and then a million years is a million generations and the amount of million generations and the amount of million generations and the amount of change that you can do it can affect in change that you can do it can affect in change that you can do it can affect in in that period of time is enormous and in that period of time is enormous and in that period of time is enormous and we're dealing with large populations of we're dealing with large populations of we're dealing with large populations of things where selection is sensitive to things where selection is sensitive to things where selection is sensitive to pretty small changes and can pretty small changes and can pretty small changes and can uh so again what as soon as you throw in uh so again what as soon as you throw in uh so again what as soon as you throw in the competition of predators and prey the competition of predators and prey the competition of predators and prey and you're ramping up the the scale of and you're ramping up the the scale of and you're ramping up the the scale of evolution it's not very surprising that evolution it's not very surprising that evolution it's not very surprising that it happens very quickly when the it happens very quickly when the it happens very quickly when the environment allows it to happen so i environment allows it to happen so i environment allows it to happen so i don't think there's a big mystery don't think there's a big mystery don't think there's a big mystery there's lots of details that need to be there's lots of details that need to be there's lots of details that need to be filled in filled in filled in i mean the big mystery in in biology is i mean the big mystery in in biology is i mean the big mystery in in biology is consciousness the big mystery in biology is conscious the big mystery in biology is conscious well intelligence is kind of a mystery well intelligence is kind of a mystery well intelligence is kind of a mystery too psychology psychology because because because from a biology perspective it seems like from a biology perspective it seems like from a biology perspective it seems like intelligence and consciousness all are intelligence and consciousness all are intelligence and consciousness all are the same like weird the same like weird the same like weird like like like all the brain stuff i don't see this all the brain stuff i don't see this all the brain stuff i don't see this intelligence is necessarily that intelligence is necessarily that intelligence is necessarily that difficult i suppose i mean i see it as a

difficult i suppose i mean i see it as a difficult i suppose i mean i see it as a form of computing and i don't know much form of computing and i don't know much form of computing and i don't know much about computing so i about computing so i about computing so i you don't know much about consciousness you don't know much about consciousness you don't know much about consciousness either so i i mean i suppose either so i i mean i suppose either so i i mean i suppose oh i see oh i see oh i see i see i see acid i see i see acid i see i see acid that consciousness you do know a lot that consciousness you do know a lot that consciousness you do know a lot about as a human being no no i mean i i about as a human being no no i mean i i about as a human being no no i mean i i think i i can understand the wiring of a think i i can understand the wiring of a think i i can understand the wiring of a brain brain brain as a series of in pretty much the same as a series of in pretty much the same as a series of in pretty much the same way as a computer in in theory way as a computer in in theory way as a computer in in theory um um um in terms of um the circuitry of it in terms of um the circuitry of it in terms of um the circuitry of it the mystery the mystery the mystery to me is to me is to me is how this system gives rise to feelings how this system gives rise to feelings how this system gives rise to feelings as we were talking about earlier on yeah as we were talking about earlier on yeah as we were talking about earlier on yeah i just i think i just i think i just i think i think we oversimplify i think we oversimplify i think we oversimplify intelligence i think the dance the magic intelligence i think the dance the magic intelligence i think the dance the magic of reasoning of reasoning of reasoning is as interesting as the magic of is as interesting as the magic of is as interesting as the magic of feeling feeling feeling we we tend to we we tend to we we tend to think of reasoning as like think of reasoning as like think of reasoning as like very uh very uh very uh running a very simplistic algorithm running a very simplistic algorithm running a very simplistic algorithm i think reasoning is re the interplay i think reasoning is re the interplay i think reasoning is re the interplay between memory whatever the hell is between memory whatever the hell is between memory whatever the hell is going on the unconscious mind going on the unconscious mind going on the unconscious mind all of that all of that all of that um um um i'm not trying to i'm not trying to i'm not trying to diminish it in any way at all obviously diminish it in any way at all obviously diminish it in any way at all obviously it's extraordinarily exquisitely complex it's extraordinarily exquisitely complex it's extraordinarily exquisitely complex and and and but but i don't see a logical difficulty but but i don't see a logical difficulty but but i don't see a logical difficulty with how it works with how it works with how it works yeah no i i mean i agree with you but yeah no i i mean i agree with you but yeah no i i mean i agree with you but sometimes sometimes sometimes um yeah there's a big cloak of mystery um yeah there's a big cloak of mystery um yeah there's a big cloak of mystery around consciousness

around consciousness around consciousness i mean let me compare it with with i mean let me compare it with with i mean let me compare it with with classical versus quantum physics the classical versus quantum physics the classical versus quantum physics the classical physics classical physics classical physics is logical and you can understand is logical and you can understand is logical and you can understand the the kind of language we're dealing the the kind of language we're dealing the the kind of language we're dealing with it's almost at the human level with it's almost at the human level with it's almost at the human level we're dealing with stars and things that we're dealing with stars and things that we're dealing with stars and things that we can see and when you get to quantum we can see and when you get to quantum we can see and when you get to quantum mechanics and things mechanics and things mechanics and things it's practically impossible for the it's practically impossible for the it's practically impossible for the human mind to compute what is what just human mind to compute what is what just human mind to compute what is what just happened there yeah um i mean that that happened there yeah um i mean that that happened there yeah um i mean that that is the same it's like is the same it's like is the same it's like you understand mathematically the the you understand mathematically the the you understand mathematically the the notes of a musical composition that's notes of a musical composition that's notes of a musical composition that's intelligence yes but why makes you feel intelligence yes but why makes you feel intelligence yes but why makes you feel a certain way that is much harder to understand that is much harder to understand yeah that's that's really um yeah that's that's really um yeah that's that's really um but but but it was it was interesting framing that it was it was interesting framing that it was it was interesting framing that that's a mystery at this at the core of that's a mystery at this at the core of that's a mystery at this at the core of biology i wonder biology i wonder biology i wonder who solves consciousness who solves consciousness who solves consciousness i tend to think consciousness will be i tend to think consciousness will be i tend to think consciousness will be solved by the engineer solved by the engineer solved by the engineer meaning anything the person builds it meaning anything the person builds it meaning anything the person builds it who tries keeps trying to build the who tries keeps trying to build the who tries keeps trying to build the thing thing thing uh versus biology is such a complicated uh versus biology is such a complicated uh versus biology is such a complicated system system system i feel like it's i feel like it's i feel like it's um i feel like the building blocks of um i feel like the building blocks of um i feel like the building blocks of consciousness from a biological consciousness from a biological consciousness from a biological perspective perspective perspective are like are like are like that's like the final creation of a that's like the final creation of a that's like the final creation of a human being so you have to understand human being so you have to understand human being so you have to understand the whole damn thing the whole damn thing the whole damn thing you said electrical fields but like you said electrical fields but like you said electrical fields but like electrical fields plus plus everything electrical fields plus plus everything electrical fields plus plus everything whole shebang

whole shebang whole shebang i'm inclined to agree i mean my feeling i'm inclined to agree i mean my feeling i'm inclined to agree i mean my feeling is from my meager knowledge of the is from my meager knowledge of the is from my meager knowledge of the history of science is that the biggest history of science is that the biggest history of science is that the biggest breakthroughs usually come through from breakthroughs usually come through from breakthroughs usually come through from a field that was not related to so so if a field that was not related to so so if a field that was not related to so so if anyone you know is not going to be a anyone you know is not going to be a anyone you know is not going to be a biologist who solves consciousness uh biologist who solves consciousness uh biologist who solves consciousness uh just because biologists are too embedded just because biologists are too embedded just because biologists are too embedded in in in the nature of of the problem in in in the nature of of the problem in in in the nature of of the problem and then nobody's going to believe you and then nobody's going to believe you and then nobody's going to believe you when you've done it because nobody's when you've done it because nobody's when you've done it because nobody's going to be able to prove that this this going to be able to prove that this this going to be able to prove that this this ai is in fact conscious and and sad ai is in fact conscious and and sad ai is in fact conscious and and sad in any case and any more than you can in any case and any more than you can in any case and any more than you can prove that a dog is conscious and sad prove that a dog is conscious and sad prove that a dog is conscious and sad so it tells you that it is in good so it tells you that it is in good so it tells you that it is in good language and you must believe it language and you must believe it language and you must believe it but i think most people will accept but i think most people will accept but i think most people will accept if faced with that that if faced with that that if faced with that that that's what it is that's what it is that's what it is all of this uh probability though of all of this uh probability though of all of this uh probability though of complex life i in one way i think i in one way i think why it matters why it matters why it matters is that my expectation i suppose is that we we my expectation i suppose is that we we will be will be will be over the next hundred years or so if we over the next hundred years or so if we over the next hundred years or so if we survive at all that ai will increasingly survive at all that ai will increasingly survive at all that ai will increasingly dominate and and pretty much anything dominate and and pretty much anything dominate and and pretty much anything that we put out into space going looking that we put out into space going looking that we put out into space going looking for other for other for other well for the universe for what's out well for the universe for what's out well for the universe for what's out there there there will be ai won't be won't be us we won't will be ai won't be won't be us we won't will be ai won't be won't be us we won't be doing that or when we do it'll be on be doing that or when we do it'll be on be doing that or when we do it'll be on a much more limited scale a much more limited scale a much more limited scale i i suppose the same would apply to any i i suppose the same would apply to any i i suppose the same would apply to any alien civilization so perhaps rather alien civilization so perhaps rather alien civilization so perhaps rather than looking for signs of life out there than looking for signs of life out there than looking for signs of life out there we should be looking for ai out there

we should be looking for ai out there we should be looking for ai out there but then we face the problem but then we face the problem but then we face the problem um um um that's that's that's i don't see how a planet is going to i don't see how a planet is going to i don't see how a planet is going to give rise directly to ai give rise directly to ai give rise directly to ai we can see how a planet can give rise we can see how a planet can give rise we can see how a planet can give rise directly to organic life directly to organic life directly to organic life and if the principles that govern the and if the principles that govern the and if the principles that govern the evolution of life on earth apply to evolution of life on earth apply to evolution of life on earth apply to other planets as well other planets as well other planets as well and i think a lot of them would and i think a lot of them would and i think a lot of them would um um um then the likelihood of ending up with then the likelihood of ending up with then the likelihood of ending up with a human-like civilization capable of a human-like civilization capable of a human-like civilization capable of giving rise to ai in the first place giving rise to ai in the first place giving rise to ai in the first place is massively limited is massively limited is massively limited once you've done it once perhaps it once you've done it once perhaps it once you've done it once perhaps it takes over the universe and maybe uh takes over the universe and maybe uh takes over the universe and maybe uh maybe there's no issue but it it seems maybe there's no issue but it it seems maybe there's no issue but it it seems to me that the the the two are to me that the the the two are to me that the the the two are necessarily linked that are you you're necessarily linked that are you you're necessarily linked that are you you're not going to just turn a sterile planet not going to just turn a sterile planet not going to just turn a sterile planet into an ai life form without the into an ai life form without the into an ai life form without the intermediary of the organics first so intermediary of the organics first so intermediary of the organics first so you have to run the the the full compute you have to run the the the full compute you have to run the the the full compute the evolutionary computation with the the evolutionary computation with the the evolutionary computation with the organics to create ai how does ai organics to create ai how does ai organics to create ai how does ai bootstrap itself up without the aid if bootstrap itself up without the aid if bootstrap itself up without the aid if you like of an intelligent designer you like of an intelligent designer you like of an intelligent designer the origin of ai the origin of ai the origin of ai is going to have to be in the chemistry is going to have to be in the chemistry is going to have to be in the chemistry of a planet of a planet of a planet so so so but that's that's not a limiting factor but that's that's not a limiting factor but that's that's not a limiting factor right so i mean so there's let me ask right so i mean so there's let me ask right so i mean so there's let me ask the fermi paradox question the fermi paradox question the fermi paradox question let's say we live in this incredibly let's say we live in this incredibly let's say we live in this incredibly dark and beautiful world of dark and beautiful world of dark and beautiful world of just just just billions of planets with bacteria on it billions of planets with bacteria on it billions of planets with bacteria on it and very few intelligent civilizations

and very few intelligent civilizations and very few intelligent civilizations and yet there's a few out there and yet there's a few out there and yet there's a few out there why haven't we at scale seen them why haven't we at scale seen them why haven't we at scale seen them visit us visit us visit us what's your sense what's your sense what's your sense is it because they don't exist um is it because they don't exist um is it because they don't exist um because don't exist in the right part of because don't exist in the right part of because don't exist in the right part of the universe at the right time that's the universe at the right time that's the universe at the right time that's the simplest answer for it the simplest answer for it the simplest answer for it is that the one you find the most is that the one you find the most is that the one you find the most compelling or is there some other compelling or is there some other compelling or is there some other explanation explanation explanation i find that you know it's not that i i find that you know it's not that i i find that you know it's not that i find it more compelling it's that i find find it more compelling it's that i find find it more compelling it's that i find more probable uh and i find all of them more probable uh and i find all of them more probable uh and i find all of them i mean there's a lot of hand waving in i mean there's a lot of hand waving in i mean there's a lot of hand waving in this we just don't know this we just don't know this we just don't know uh so so i'm trying to read out from uh so so i'm trying to read out from uh so so i'm trying to read out from what i know about life on earth to what what i know about life on earth to what what i know about life on earth to what might happen somewhere else might happen somewhere else might happen somewhere else and it gives to my mind a bit of a and it gives to my mind a bit of a and it gives to my mind a bit of a pessimistic view of bacteria everywhere pessimistic view of bacteria everywhere pessimistic view of bacteria everywhere and only occasional intelligent life and only occasional intelligent life and only occasional intelligent life and you know running forward humans only and you know running forward humans only and you know running forward humans only once on earth and nothing else that you once on earth and nothing else that you once on earth and nothing else that you would necessarily be would necessarily be would necessarily be any more excited about making contact any more excited about making contact any more excited about making contact with than you would be making contact with than you would be making contact with than you would be making contact with them on earth so so so i think the chances are pretty so i think the chances are pretty so i think the chances are pretty limited limited limited and the chances of us surviving and the chances of us surviving and the chances of us surviving is pretty limited too the way we're is pretty limited too the way we're is pretty limited too the way we're going on at the moment the likelihood of going on at the moment the likelihood of going on at the moment the likelihood of us not making ourselves extinct within us not making ourselves extinct within us not making ourselves extinct within the next few hundred years the next few hundred years the next few hundred years possibly within the next 50 or 100 years possibly within the next 50 or 100 years possibly within the next 50 or 100 years seems seems seems quite small quite small quite small i hope we can do better than that i hope we can do better than that i hope we can do better than that um um um so maybe the only thing that will so maybe the only thing that will so maybe the only thing that will survive from humanity will be ai and survive from humanity will be ai and survive from humanity will be ai and maybe once it exists and once it's maybe once it exists and once it's maybe once it exists and once it's capable of capable of capable of of effectively copying itself and

of effectively copying itself and of effectively copying itself and cutting humans out of the loop cutting humans out of the loop cutting humans out of the loop um then maybe that will take over the um then maybe that will take over the um then maybe that will take over the universe universe universe i mean there's a kind of inherent i mean there's a kind of inherent i mean there's a kind of inherent sadness to the way you describe that but sadness to the way you describe that but sadness to the way you describe that but isn't that isn't that isn't that also potentially beautiful that that's also potentially beautiful that that's also potentially beautiful that that's the next step of life the next step of life the next step of life um um um i suppose as i suppose as i suppose as from your perspective as long as it from your perspective as long as it from your perspective as long as it carries the flame of consciousness carries the flame of consciousness carries the flame of consciousness somehow i think yes there can be some somehow i think yes there can be some somehow i think yes there can be some beauty to it being the next step of life beauty to it being the next step of life beauty to it being the next step of life and i don't know if consciousness and i don't know if consciousness and i don't know if consciousness matters or not from that point of view matters or not from that point of view matters or not from that point of view to be honest with you to be honest with you to be honest with you um um um yeah but there's yeah but there's yeah but there's there's some sadness yes probably there's some sadness yes probably there's some sadness yes probably because because because um um um because i think it comes down to the because i think it comes down to the because i think it comes down to the selfishness that we were talking about selfishness that we were talking about selfishness that we were talking about earlier on i i am earlier on i i am earlier on i i am an individual an individual an individual with a a desire not to be kind of with a a desire not to be kind of with a a desire not to be kind of displaced from life i want to stay alive displaced from life i want to stay alive displaced from life i want to stay alive i want to i want to i want to be here be here be here um um um so i suppose the threat that a lot of so i suppose the threat that a lot of so i suppose the threat that a lot of people would feel is that we will just people would feel is that we will just people would feel is that we will just be wiped out so that we will be um that be wiped out so that we will be um that be wiped out so that we will be um that there will be potential conflicts there will be potential conflicts there will be potential conflicts between ai and humans and that that hey between ai and humans and that that hey between ai and humans and that that hey i will win because it's a lot smarter i will win because it's a lot smarter i will win because it's a lot smarter boy would that be a sad state of affairs boy would that be a sad state of affairs boy would that be a sad state of affairs if if if consciousness is just an intermediate consciousness is just an intermediate consciousness is just an intermediate stage stage stage between bacteria and a.i between bacteria and a.i between bacteria and a.i so i would see bacteria as being so i would see bacteria as being so i would see bacteria as being potentially a kind of primitive form of potentially a kind of primitive form of potentially a kind of primitive form of consciousness right so maybe the whole consciousness right so maybe the whole consciousness right so maybe the whole of life on earth to my mind is conscious of life on earth to my mind is conscious of life on earth to my mind is conscious it's capable of some form of feelings in it's capable of some form of feelings in it's capable of some form of feelings in response to the environment that's not response to the environment that's not response to the environment that's not to say it's intelligent though he's

to say it's intelligent though he's to say it's intelligent though he's got his own got his own got his own algorithms for intelligence but nothing algorithms for intelligence but nothing algorithms for intelligence but nothing comparable with us comparable with us comparable with us i think it's beautiful what a planet i think it's beautiful what a planet i think it's beautiful what a planet what a sterile planet can come up with what a sterile planet can come up with what a sterile planet can come up with and it's astonishing that it's come up and it's astonishing that it's come up and it's astonishing that it's come up with all of this stuff that we see with all of this stuff that we see with all of this stuff that we see around us and and that either we around us and and that either we around us and and that either we or whatever we produce is capable of or whatever we produce is capable of or whatever we produce is capable of destroying all of that destroying all of that destroying all of that yeah is it is a sad thought yeah is it is a sad thought yeah is it is a sad thought but it's also it's hugely pessimistic it's hugely pessimistic i'd like to think that we're capable of i'd like to think that we're capable of i'd like to think that we're capable of giving rise to something which is at giving rise to something which is at giving rise to something which is at least as good if not better than us as least as good if not better than us as least as good if not better than us as ai ai ai yeah i i have that same yeah i i have that same yeah i i have that same [Music] [Music] [Music] i have the same optimism i have the same optimism i have the same optimism especially a thing that is able to especially a thing that is able to especially a thing that is able to propagate throughout the universe more propagate throughout the universe more propagate throughout the universe more efficiently than humans can efficiently than humans can efficiently than humans can or extensions of humans or extensions of humans or extensions of humans some merger with ai in humans some merger with ai in humans some merger with ai in humans whether that comes from whether that comes from whether that comes from bioengineering of the human body to bioengineering of the human body to bioengineering of the human body to extend its life extend its life extend its life somehow somehow somehow to carry that flame of consciousness and to carry that flame of consciousness and to carry that flame of consciousness and that personality and the beautiful that personality and the beautiful that personality and the beautiful tension tension tension that's within all of us carry that that's within all of us carry that that's within all of us carry that through to multiple planets to multiple through to multiple planets to multiple through to multiple planets to multiple solar systems solar systems solar systems all out there in the universe i mean all out there in the universe i mean all out there in the universe i mean that's a beautiful that's a beautiful that's a beautiful that's a beautiful that's a beautiful that's a beautiful vision whether ai can do that or vision whether ai can do that or vision whether ai can do that or uh bioengineered humans uh bioengineered humans uh bioengineered humans uh can that's an exciting possibility uh can that's an exciting possibility uh can that's an exciting possibility and especially meeting other and especially meeting other and especially meeting other other alien civilizations in that same other alien civilizations in that same other alien civilizations in that same kind of way do you think do you think kind of way do you think do you think kind of way do you think do you think aliens have consciousness if they're aliens have consciousness if they're aliens have consciousness if they're organic organic organic so organic yes connected to caution i

so organic yes connected to caution i so organic yes connected to caution i mean i i think any any system which is mean i i think any any system which is mean i i think any any system which is going to bootstrap itself up from going to bootstrap itself up from going to bootstrap itself up from planetary origins i mean planetary origins i mean planetary origins i mean let me finish this and then come onto let me finish this and then come onto let me finish this and then come onto something else but uh from from something else but uh from from something else but uh from from planetary origins is going to face planetary origins is going to face planetary origins is going to face similar constraints and those similar constraints and those similar constraints and those constraints are going to be addressed in constraints are going to be addressed in constraints are going to be addressed in similar basic engineering ways and i similar basic engineering ways and i similar basic engineering ways and i think it will be cellular and i think it think it will be cellular and i think it think it will be cellular and i think it will have electrical charges and i think will have electrical charges and i think will have electrical charges and i think it will have to it will have to it will have to be selected in populations over time and be selected in populations over time and be selected in populations over time and all of these things will tend to give all of these things will tend to give all of these things will tend to give rise to the same processes as the rise to the same processes as the rise to the same processes as the simplest fix to a difficult problem so i simplest fix to a difficult problem so i simplest fix to a difficult problem so i would expect it to be conscious yes and would expect it to be conscious yes and would expect it to be conscious yes and i would expect it to i would expect it to i would expect it to resemble life on earth in resemble life on earth in resemble life on earth in many ways many ways many ways when i was about i guess 15 or 16 i when i was about i guess 15 or 16 i when i was about i guess 15 or 16 i remember reading a book by fred hoyle remember reading a book by fred hoyle remember reading a book by fred hoyle called the black cloud called the black cloud called the black cloud which which which i was a budding biologist at the time i was a budding biologist at the time i was a budding biologist at the time and this was the first time i'd come and this was the first time i'd come and this was the first time i'd come across someone really challenging the across someone really challenging the across someone really challenging the heart of biology and saying heart of biology and saying heart of biology and saying you're you are far too parochial you you you're you are far too parochial you you you're you are far too parochial you you know you're thinking about life as know you're thinking about life as know you're thinking about life as carbon based here's a here's a life form carbon based here's a here's a life form carbon based here's a here's a life form which is kind of dust interstellar dust which is kind of dust interstellar dust which is kind of dust interstellar dust that on a on a on a solar system scale that on a on a on a solar system scale that on a on a on a solar system scale um um um and i and i and i you know it's a novel but i felt you know it's a novel but i felt you know it's a novel but i felt enormously challenged by that novel enormously challenged by that novel enormously challenged by that novel because i hadn't occurred to me because i hadn't occurred to me because i hadn't occurred to me how limited my thinking was how limited my thinking was how limited my thinking was uh how how uh how how uh how how narrow-minded i was being and he was it narrow-minded i was being and he was it narrow-minded i was being and he was it was a great physicist with a completely was a great physicist with a completely was a great physicist with a completely different conception of what life could different conception of what life could different conception of what life could be be be and since then i've seen him attacked uh and since then i've seen him attacked uh and since then i've seen him attacked uh in in various ways and i

in in various ways and i in in various ways and i i'm kind of reluctant to say the attacks i'm kind of reluctant to say the attacks i'm kind of reluctant to say the attacks make more sense to me than than the make more sense to me than than the make more sense to me than than the original story which is to say original story which is to say original story which is to say even in terms of even in terms of even in terms of information processing if you're on that information processing if you're on that information processing if you're on that scale and there's a limit of the speed scale and there's a limit of the speed scale and there's a limit of the speed of light how quickly can something think of light how quickly can something think of light how quickly can something think if you're needing to if you're needing to if you're needing to broadcast across the broadcast across the broadcast across the the the solar system the the solar system the the solar system is going to be slow it's not going to is going to be slow it's not going to is going to be slow it's not going to hold a conversation with you on the kind hold a conversation with you on the kind hold a conversation with you on the kind of timelines that fred hoyle was of timelines that fred hoyle was of timelines that fred hoyle was imagining at least not by imagining at least not by imagining at least not by any easy way of doing it assuming that any easy way of doing it assuming that any easy way of doing it assuming that speed of light is a limit speed of light is a limit speed of light is a limit um um um and and then again you and and then again you and and then again you you really can't this is something you really can't this is something you really can't this is something richard dawkins argued long ago and i do richard dawkins argued long ago and i do richard dawkins argued long ago and i do think he's right there is no other way think he's right there is no other way think he's right there is no other way to generate this level of complexity to generate this level of complexity to generate this level of complexity than natural selection nothing else can than natural selection nothing else can than natural selection nothing else can do it you need populations do it you need populations do it you need populations and you need selection in populations and you need selection in populations and you need selection in populations and a kind of an isolated and a kind of an isolated and a kind of an isolated um um um interstellar interstellar interstellar cloud cloud cloud again it's unlimited time and maybe again it's unlimited time and maybe again it's unlimited time and maybe there's no problems with distance but there's no problems with distance but there's no problems with distance but you need to have you need to have you need to have a certain frequency of generational time a certain frequency of generational time a certain frequency of generational time to generate a serious level of to generate a serious level of to generate a serious level of complexity complexity complexity um and um and um and i just have a feeling it's never going i just have a feeling it's never going i just have a feeling it's never going to work to work to work well well well as far as we know so natural selection as far as we know so natural selection as far as we know so natural selection evolution is really powerful tool here evolution is really powerful tool here evolution is really powerful tool here on earth but there could be other on earth but there could be other on earth but there could be other mechanisms so whenever mechanisms so whenever mechanisms so whenever i don't know if you're familiar with i don't know if you're familiar with i don't know if you're familiar with cellular automata

cellular automata cellular automata but complex systems that but complex systems that but complex systems that have really simple components have really simple components have really simple components and seemingly move based on simple rules and seemingly move based on simple rules and seemingly move based on simple rules when they're taken as a whole when they're taken as a whole when they're taken as a whole really interesting complexity emerges really interesting complexity emerges really interesting complexity emerges i don't know what the pressures on that i don't know what the pressures on that i don't know what the pressures on that are it's not really selection but are it's not really selection but are it's not really selection but interesting complexity seems to emerge interesting complexity seems to emerge interesting complexity seems to emerge and that's not well understood exactly and that's not well understood exactly and that's not well understood exactly why is that the difference between why is that the difference between why is that the difference between complexity and evolution complexity and evolution complexity and evolution so some of the work we're doing on the so some of the work we're doing on the so some of the work we're doing on the origin of life is is is thinking about origin of life is is is thinking about origin of life is is is thinking about how does how does how does uh well how do genes arise how does uh well how do genes arise how does uh well how do genes arise how does information arise in biology information arise in biology information arise in biology and thinking about it from the point of and thinking about it from the point of and thinking about it from the point of view of reacting co2 with hydrogen what view of reacting co2 with hydrogen what view of reacting co2 with hydrogen what do you get well what you're going to get do you get well what you're going to get do you get well what you're going to get is is is carboxylic acids then amino acids it's carboxylic acids then amino acids it's carboxylic acids then amino acids it's quite hard to make nucleotides quite hard to make nucleotides quite hard to make nucleotides um and um and um and it's possible to make them and it's been it's possible to make them and it's been it's possible to make them and it's been done and it's being done following this done and it's being done following this done and it's being done following this pathway as well but you make trace pathway as well but you make trace pathway as well but you make trace amounts amounts amounts and so the next question assuming that and so the next question assuming that and so the next question assuming that this is the right way of seeing the this is the right way of seeing the this is the right way of seeing the question which maybe it's just not but question which maybe it's just not but question which maybe it's just not but let's assume it is let's assume it is let's assume it is is well how do you reliably make more is well how do you reliably make more is well how do you reliably make more nucleotides and how do you become more nucleotides and how do you become more nucleotides and how do you become more complex and better at complex and better at complex and better at becoming a nucleotide generating machine becoming a nucleotide generating machine becoming a nucleotide generating machine and the answer is well you need positive and the answer is well you need positive and the answer is well you need positive feedback loops feedback loops feedback loops some form of auto catalysis so some form of auto catalysis so some form of auto catalysis so that can work and we know it happens in that can work and we know it happens in that can work and we know it happens in biology if this nucleotide for example biology if this nucleotide for example biology if this nucleotide for example catalyzes co2 fixation then you're going catalyzes co2 fixation then you're going catalyzes co2 fixation then you're going to increase the rate of flux through the to increase the rate of flux through the to increase the rate of flux through the whole system and you're going to whole system and you're going to whole system and you're going to effectively steepen the driving force to effectively steepen the driving force to effectively steepen the driving force to make more nucleotides

make more nucleotides make more nucleotides um um um and this can be inherited because and this can be inherited because and this can be inherited because there are forms of membrane heredity there are forms of membrane heredity there are forms of membrane heredity that you can have and there are that you can have and there are that you can have and there are effectively you can if a cell divides in effectively you can if a cell divides in effectively you can if a cell divides in two and it's got a lot of stuff inside two and it's got a lot of stuff inside two and it's got a lot of stuff inside it and that stuff is basically bound as it and that stuff is basically bound as it and that stuff is basically bound as a a a network which is capable of regenerating network which is capable of regenerating network which is capable of regenerating itself itself itself then it will then it will then it will inevitably regenerate itself and so you inevitably regenerate itself and so you inevitably regenerate itself and so you can develop greater complexity can develop greater complexity can develop greater complexity but everything that i've said depends on but everything that i've said depends on but everything that i've said depends on the underlying rules of thermodynamics the underlying rules of thermodynamics the underlying rules of thermodynamics there is no evolvability about that it's there is no evolvability about that it's there is no evolvability about that it's simply an inevitable simply an inevitable simply an inevitable outcome of your starting point outcome of your starting point outcome of your starting point assuming that you're able to assuming that you're able to assuming that you're able to increase the driving force through the increase the driving force through the increase the driving force through the system you will generate more of the system you will generate more of the system you will generate more of the same you'll expand on what you can do same you'll expand on what you can do same you'll expand on what you can do but you'll never get anything different but you'll never get anything different but you'll never get anything different than that and it's only when you than that and it's only when you than that and it's only when you introduce introduce introduce information into that as a gene as a as information into that as a gene as a as information into that as a gene as a as a kind of a kind of a kind of small stretch of rna small stretch of rna small stretch of rna which can be random stretch which can be random stretch which can be random stretch then you get real evolvability then you then you get real evolvability then you then you get real evolvability then you get biology as we know it but you also get biology as we know it but you also get biology as we know it but you also have selection as we know it have selection as we know it have selection as we know it yeah i mean i don't know how to think yeah i mean i don't know how to think yeah i mean i don't know how to think about information about information about information um that's the kind of memory of the um that's the kind of memory of the um that's the kind of memory of the systems it's not systems it's not systems it's not yet at the local level it's propagation yet at the local level it's propagation yet at the local level it's propagation of copying yourself and changing and of copying yourself and changing and of copying yourself and changing and improving your adaptability to the improving your adaptability to the improving your adaptability to the environment environment environment but if you look at earth but if you look at earth but if you look at earth as a whole as a whole as a whole it has a kind of memory that's the key it has a kind of memory that's the key it has a kind of memory that's the key feature of it feature of it feature of it in my way

in my way in my way it remembers the stuff it tries it remembers the stuff it tries it remembers the stuff it tries like if you were to describe earth like if you were to describe earth like if you were to describe earth i i think evolution is something that we i i think evolution is something that we i i think evolution is something that we experience experience experience uh as individual organisms uh as individual organisms uh as individual organisms that's that's how the individual that's that's how the individual that's that's how the individual organisms interact with each other organisms interact with each other organisms interact with each other there's a natural selection there's a natural selection there's a natural selection but when you look at earth as an but when you look at earth as an but when you look at earth as an organism organism organism in its entirety in its entirety in its entirety um um um how would you describe it i mean well how would you describe it i mean well how would you describe it i mean well not as an organism not as an organism not as an organism i mean the idea of gaia is is lovely i mean the idea of gaia is is lovely i mean the idea of gaia is is lovely and james lovelock originally put gaia and james lovelock originally put gaia and james lovelock originally put gaia out as a as an organism that had somehow out as a as an organism that had somehow out as a as an organism that had somehow evolved uh and he was immediately evolved uh and he was immediately evolved uh and he was immediately attacked by lots of people attacked by lots of people attacked by lots of people and he's not wrong but he backpedaled and he's not wrong but he backpedaled and he's not wrong but he backpedaled somewhat because that was more of a somewhat because that was more of a somewhat because that was more of a poetic vision than than um than than the poetic vision than than um than than the poetic vision than than um than than the science science science the science is now called earth systems the science is now called earth systems the science is now called earth systems science and it's really about how does science and it's really about how does science and it's really about how does the the world kind of regulate itself so the the world kind of regulate itself so the the world kind of regulate itself so it remains within the limits which are it remains within the limits which are it remains within the limits which are hospitable to life and it does it hospitable to life and it does it hospitable to life and it does it amazingly well and it is it is working amazingly well and it is it is working amazingly well and it is it is working at a planetary level at a planetary level at a planetary level of of of um um um of of kind of integration of regulation of of kind of integration of regulation of of kind of integration of regulation but it's not evolving by natural but it's not evolving by natural but it's not evolving by natural selection and it can't because there's selection and it can't because there's selection and it can't because there's only one of it um and so it can change only one of it um and so it can change only one of it um and so it can change over time but it's not evolving all the over time but it's not evolving all the over time but it's not evolving all the evolution is happening in the parts of evolution is happening in the parts of evolution is happening in the parts of the system the system the system yeah but it's a self-sustaining organism yeah but it's a self-sustaining organism yeah but it's a self-sustaining organism no it's stained by the no it's stained by the no it's stained by the sun right so i mean the so you don't

sun right so i mean the so you don't sun right so i mean the so you don't think it it's possible to see think it it's possible to see think it it's possible to see earth as its own organism earth as its own organism earth as its own organism i think it's poetic and beautiful and i i think it's poetic and beautiful and i i think it's poetic and beautiful and i often refer to the to the earth as often refer to the to the earth as often refer to the to the earth as living planet living planet living planet but it's not in in biological terms an but it's not in in biological terms an but it's not in in biological terms an organism no organism no organism no if aliens were to visit earth if aliens were to visit earth if aliens were to visit earth would they what would they notice would they what would they notice would they what would they notice what would be the basic unit of life what would be the basic unit of life what would be the basic unit of life they would notice trees probably i mean they would notice trees probably i mean they would notice trees probably i mean it's green it's green and blue i think it's green it's green and blue i think it's green it's green and blue i think that's the first thing you'd notice is that's the first thing you'd notice is that's the first thing you'd notice is it stands out from space as being it stands out from space as being it stands out from space as being different to any of the other planets different to any of the other planets different to any of the other planets they would notice the trees at first they would notice the trees at first they would notice the trees at first because the ground i would i noticed the because the ground i would i noticed the because the ground i would i noticed the green yes yeah green yes yeah green yes yeah and then uh probably notice and then uh probably notice and then uh probably notice figure out the photosynthesis and then figure out the photosynthesis and then figure out the photosynthesis and then you notice cities second i suspect you notice cities second i suspect you notice cities second i suspect first first first they arrived at night they noticed it at they arrived at night they noticed it at they arrived at night they noticed it at first that's for sure it depends depends first that's for sure it depends depends first that's for sure it depends depends the time you uh you write quite the time you uh you write quite the time you uh you write quite beautifully in uh transformers once beautifully in uh transformers once beautifully in uh transformers once again i think you open the book in this again i think you open the book in this again i think you open the book in this way i don't remember way i don't remember way i don't remember from space from space from space describing earth describing earth describing earth it's such an interesting idea of what it's such an interesting idea of what it's such an interesting idea of what earth is um you also earth is um you also earth is um you also i mean uh hitchhiker's guide summarizing i mean uh hitchhiker's guide summarizing i mean uh hitchhiker's guide summarizing it is harmless or mostly harmless it's a it is harmless or mostly harmless it's a it is harmless or mostly harmless it's a beautifully poetic thing beautifully poetic thing beautifully poetic thing you you you open transformers with from space open transformers with from space open transformers with from space it looks gray and crystalline it looks gray and crystalline it looks gray and crystalline obliterating the blue green colors of obliterating the blue green colors of obliterating the blue green colors of the living earth the living earth the living earth it is crisscrossed by irregular patterns it is crisscrossed by irregular patterns it is crisscrossed by irregular patterns and convergent striations

and convergent striations and convergent striations there's a central amorphous density there's a central amorphous density there's a central amorphous density where these scratches seem lighter where these scratches seem lighter where these scratches seem lighter this quote growth does not look alive this quote growth does not look alive this quote growth does not look alive although it has extended out along some although it has extended out along some although it has extended out along some lines and there is something grasping lines and there is something grasping lines and there is something grasping and parasitic about it and parasitic about it and parasitic about it across the globe there are thousands of across the globe there are thousands of across the globe there are thousands of them them them varying in shape and detail but all of varying in shape and detail but all of varying in shape and detail but all of them gray angular inorganic them gray angular inorganic them gray angular inorganic spreading spreading spreading yet at night they light up yet at night they light up yet at night they light up going up the dark sky suddenly beautiful going up the dark sky suddenly beautiful going up the dark sky suddenly beautiful perhaps these cankers on the landscape perhaps these cankers on the landscape perhaps these cankers on the landscape are in some sense living there's a are in some sense living there's a are in some sense living there's a controlled flow of energy there must be controlled flow of energy there must be controlled flow of energy there must be information and some form of metabolism information and some form of metabolism information and some form of metabolism some turnover of materials are they some turnover of materials are they some turnover of materials are they alive alive alive no of course not they are cities no of course not they are cities no of course not they are cities so is there some sense that cities are so is there some sense that cities are so is there some sense that cities are living beings living beings living beings you think aliens would think of them as you think aliens would think of them as you think aliens would think of them as living beings well it would be easy to living beings well it would be easy to living beings well it would be easy to see it that way wouldn't it see it that way wouldn't it see it that way wouldn't it um um um it uh wakes up at night they wake up it uh wakes up at night they wake up it uh wakes up at night they wake up it's strictly nocturnal it's strictly nocturnal it's strictly nocturnal yes yes yes i imagine that any aliens that are smart i imagine that any aliens that are smart i imagine that any aliens that are smart enough to get here would understand that enough to get here would understand that enough to get here would understand that uh they're they're not living beings uh they're they're not living beings uh they're they're not living beings my reason for my reason for my reason for saying that is that saying that is that saying that is that we we we tend to think of tend to think of tend to think of biology in terms of information and biology in terms of information and biology in terms of information and forget about cells forget about cells forget about cells and i was trying to draw a comparison and i was trying to draw a comparison and i was trying to draw a comparison between the cell as a city and and the between the cell as a city and and the between the cell as a city and and the energy flow through the city and the energy flow through the city and the energy flow through the city and the energy flow through cells and the

energy flow through cells and the energy flow through cells and the turnover of materials turnover of materials turnover of materials and an interesting thing about cities and an interesting thing about cities and an interesting thing about cities is that they're not really is that they're not really is that they're not really exactly governed by anybody exactly governed by anybody exactly governed by anybody um there are um there are um there are regulations and systems and whatever regulations and systems and whatever regulations and systems and whatever else but it's pretty loose else but it's pretty loose else but it's pretty loose um um um they have their own life their own way they have their own life their own way they have their own life their own way of developing over time they they of developing over time they they of developing over time they they and in that sense they're quite and in that sense they're quite and in that sense they're quite biological biological biological they're not it's there was there was a they're not it's there was there was a they're not it's there was there was a plan plan plan after the great fire of london after the great fire of london after the great fire of london christopher wren was uh was making plans christopher wren was uh was making plans christopher wren was uh was making plans not only for saint paul's cathedral but not only for saint paul's cathedral but not only for saint paul's cathedral but also to rebuild in in large parisian also to rebuild in in large parisian also to rebuild in in large parisian type boulevards a large part of the area type boulevards a large part of the area type boulevards a large part of the area of central london that was uh was was of central london that was uh was was of central london that was uh was was was burned was burned was burned and it never happened and it never happened and it never happened because they didn't have enough money i because they didn't have enough money i because they didn't have enough money i think but it's interesting what was in think but it's interesting what was in think but it's interesting what was in the plan were all these boulevards um the plan were all these boulevards um the plan were all these boulevards um but there were no pubs and no coffee but there were no pubs and no coffee but there were no pubs and no coffee houses or anything like that houses or anything like that houses or anything like that and the reality was london just kind of and the reality was london just kind of and the reality was london just kind of grew up in a grew up in a grew up in a set of jumbled streets and it was the set of jumbled streets and it was the set of jumbled streets and it was the coffee houses and the pubs where all the coffee houses and the pubs where all the coffee houses and the pubs where all the business of the city of london was being business of the city of london was being business of the city of london was being done and that was where the real life of done and that was where the real life of done and that was where the real life of the city was and no one had planned it the city was and no one had planned it the city was and no one had planned it the whole thing was unplanned and works the whole thing was unplanned and works the whole thing was unplanned and works much better that way and in that sense much better that way and in that sense much better that way and in that sense the cell is completely unplanned it's the cell is completely unplanned it's the cell is completely unplanned it's not controlled by the genes in the not controlled by the genes in the not controlled by the genes in the nucleus in the way that we might like to nucleus in the way that we might like to nucleus in the way that we might like to think that it is but it's it's kind of think that it is but it's it's kind of think that it is but it's it's kind of evolved entity that uh has the same kind evolved entity that uh has the same kind evolved entity that uh has the same kind of flux the same animation the same life of flux the same animation the same life of flux the same animation the same life so i think it's it's a it's a beautiful so i think it's it's a it's a beautiful so i think it's it's a it's a beautiful analogy analogy analogy but i wouldn't get but i wouldn't get but i wouldn't get too stuck with it as a as a matter of too stuck with it as a as a matter of too stuck with it as a as a matter of fact see i disagree with you i i i

fact see i disagree with you i i i fact see i disagree with you i i i disagree with you i i think you're disagree with you i i think you're disagree with you i i think you're you are so steeped you are so steeped you are so steeped and actually the entirety of and actually the entirety of and actually the entirety of science science science the history of science is steeped the history of science is steeped the history of science is steeped in a biological framework of thinking in a biological framework of thinking in a biological framework of thinking about what is life and not just about what is life and not just about what is life and not just biological is very human-centric too biological is very human-centric too biological is very human-centric too that human that human that human the human organism is the epitome of the human organism is the epitome of the human organism is the epitome of life on earth i don't i don't know i i think on earth i don't i don't know i i think there is some deep fundamental way in there is some deep fundamental way in there is some deep fundamental way in which a city is a living being which a city is a living being which a city is a living being in the same way that in the same way that in the same way that huma huma huma it doesn't give rise to an offspring it doesn't give rise to an offspring it doesn't give rise to an offspring city city city it's so i mean it's not it doesn't work it's so i mean it's not it doesn't work it's so i mean it's not it doesn't work by natural selection it works by if by natural selection it works by if by natural selection it works by if anything means it works by anything means it works by anything means it works by um yeah but isn't it um yeah but isn't it um yeah but isn't it itself conceptually as a itself conceptually as a itself conceptually as a mode of being mode of being mode of being so i mean maybe memes maybe ideas are so i mean maybe memes maybe ideas are so i mean maybe memes maybe ideas are are the organisms that are really are the organisms that are really are the organisms that are really essential to life on earth maybe it's essential to life on earth maybe it's essential to life on earth maybe it's much more important about the collective much more important about the collective much more important about the collective aspect of human nature the collective aspect of human nature the collective aspect of human nature the collective intelligence than the individual intelligence than the individual intelligence than the individual intelligence maybe intelligence maybe intelligence maybe the collective humanity is the organism the collective humanity is the organism the collective humanity is the organism and the the thing that that defines the and the the thing that that defines the and the the thing that that defines the collective intelligence of humanity is collective intelligence of humanity is collective intelligence of humanity is the ideas the ideas the ideas and maybe the way that manifests itself and maybe the way that manifests itself and maybe the way that manifests itself is cities is cities is cities maybe uh or societies or geographically maybe uh or societies or geographically maybe uh or societies or geographically constrained societies or nations and all constrained societies or nations and all constrained societies or nations and all that kind of stuff i mean from an alien that kind of stuff i mean from an alien that kind of stuff i mean from an alien perspective it's possible that that is perspective it's possible that that is perspective it's possible that that is the more

the more the more deeply noticeable thing not from a place deeply noticeable thing not from a place deeply noticeable thing not from a place of but what's noticeable doesn't tell of but what's noticeable doesn't tell of but what's noticeable doesn't tell you how it works you how it works you how it works i i think i mean i don't have any i i think i mean i don't have any i i think i mean i don't have any problem with what you're saying really problem with what you're saying really problem with what you're saying really except that except that except that it's not possible it's not possible it's not possible without the humans you know we we went without the humans you know we we went without the humans you know we we went from a hunter-gatherer's type from a hunter-gatherer's type from a hunter-gatherer's type economy if you like without cities economy if you like without cities economy if you like without cities through to cities and as soon as we get through to cities and as soon as we get through to cities and as soon as we get into human evolution and culture and into human evolution and culture and into human evolution and culture and society and so on then then then yes society and so on then then then yes society and so on then then then yes there are other forms of evolution there are other forms of evolution there are other forms of evolution uh the forms of change uh the forms of change uh the forms of change um but but cities don't don't directly um but but cities don't don't directly um but but cities don't don't directly propagate themselves they propagate propagate themselves they propagate propagate themselves they propagate themselves through human societies and themselves through human societies and themselves through human societies and human societies only exist because human societies only exist because human societies only exist because humans as individuals propagate humans as individuals propagate humans as individuals propagate themselves themselves themselves so there's a kind of there is a so there's a kind of there is a so there's a kind of there is a hierarchy there and without the humans hierarchy there and without the humans hierarchy there and without the humans in the first place none of the rest of in the first place none of the rest of in the first place none of the rest of it exists it says you it exists it says you it exists it says you life is primarily defined by the the life is primarily defined by the the life is primarily defined by the the basic unit on which evolution can basic unit on which evolution can basic unit on which evolution can operate and that's a really unknown operate and that's a really unknown operate and that's a really unknown thing yes thing yes thing yes yeah yeah yeah uh and we don't know we don't have any uh and we don't know we don't have any uh and we don't know we don't have any other better ideas than evolution for other better ideas than evolution for other better ideas than evolution for how to create i never came across a how to create i never came across a how to create i never came across a better idea than evolution but i mean better idea than evolution but i mean better idea than evolution but i mean maybe maybe i'm just ignorant and i maybe maybe i'm just ignorant and i maybe maybe i'm just ignorant and i don't know and there's don't know and there's don't know and there's you know you mentioned that's automator you know you mentioned that's automator you know you mentioned that's automator and so on and and so on and and so on and i don't think specifically about that i don't think specifically about that i don't think specifically about that but i have thought about it in terms of but i have thought about it in terms of but i have thought about it in terms of selective units at the origin of life selective units at the origin of life selective units at the origin of life and the difference between evolvability and the difference between evolvability and the difference between evolvability and and complexity or just increasing and and complexity or just increasing and and complexity or just increasing complexity but within very narrow complexity but within very narrow complexity but within very narrow narrowly defined limits

narrowly defined limits narrowly defined limits the great thing about the great thing about the great thing about about genes and about selection is it about genes and about selection is it about genes and about selection is it just knocks down all those limits it just knocks down all those limits it just knocks down all those limits it gives you a world of information in the gives you a world of information in the gives you a world of information in the end which is limited only by end which is limited only by end which is limited only by the the biophysical reality of what what the the biophysical reality of what what the the biophysical reality of what what kind of an organism you are what kind of kind of an organism you are what kind of kind of an organism you are what kind of a planet you live on and so on a planet you live on and so on a planet you live on and so on and and cities and and all these other and and cities and and all these other and and cities and and all these other forms that look alive and could be forms that look alive and could be forms that look alive and could be described as alive described as alive described as alive because they can't propagate themselves because they can't propagate themselves because they can't propagate themselves can only exist in can only exist in can only exist in as the product of something that did as the product of something that did as the product of something that did propagate itself propagate itself propagate itself yeah yeah yeah i mean there's a deeply compelling truth i mean there's a deeply compelling truth i mean there's a deeply compelling truth to that kind of way of looking at things to that kind of way of looking at things to that kind of way of looking at things but i just hope that we don't miss but i just hope that we don't miss but i just hope that we don't miss the uh giant cloud the uh giant cloud the uh giant cloud among us i i kind of hope that i'm wrong among us i i kind of hope that i'm wrong among us i i kind of hope that i'm wrong about a lot of this because i can't say about a lot of this because i can't say about a lot of this because i can't say that that that my world view is particularly uplifting my world view is particularly uplifting my world view is particularly uplifting um but in some sense um but in some sense um but in some sense it doesn't matter if it's uplifting or it doesn't matter if it's uplifting or it doesn't matter if it's uplifting or not science is about what's what's not science is about what's what's not science is about what's what's reality what's what's out there why is reality what's what's out there why is reality what's what's out there why is it this way it this way it this way uh and and i'm uh and and i'm uh and and i'm i think there's beauty in that too i think there's beauty in that too i think there's beauty in that too there's beauty in darkness there's beauty in darkness there's beauty in darkness you write about life and death you write about life and death you write about life and death uh sort of at the biological level is uh sort of at the biological level is uh sort of at the biological level is does the question of suicide why live does the question of suicide why live does the question of suicide why live does the question of why the human mind does the question of why the human mind does the question of why the human mind is capable of depression are you able to is capable of depression are you able to is capable of depression are you able to um introspect that from a place of um introspect that from a place of um introspect that from a place of biology biology biology why why why our minds why we humans can go to such our minds why we humans can go to such our minds why we humans can go to such dark places

dark places dark places why can we commit suicide why can we commit suicide why can we commit suicide why can we why can we why can we go go go um you know suffer suffer period but also suffer from suffer period but also suffer from a feeling of meaninglessness of um going a feeling of meaninglessness of um going a feeling of meaninglessness of um going to a dark place that depression can take to a dark place that depression can take to a dark place that depression can take you is this a feature of life or is it a you is this a feature of life or is it a you is this a feature of life or is it a bug um i don't know i mean if it's a feature um i don't know i mean if it's a feature of life then i suppose it would have to of life then i suppose it would have to of life then i suppose it would have to be true of other organisms as well and i be true of other organisms as well and i be true of other organisms as well and i don't know don't know don't know we were talking about dogs earlier on we were talking about dogs earlier on we were talking about dogs earlier on and they can certainly be and they can certainly be and they can certainly be uh very uh very uh very sad and upset and may mooch for days sad and upset and may mooch for days sad and upset and may mooch for days after their owner died or something like after their owner died or something like after their owner died or something like that so i suspect in some sense it's a that so i suspect in some sense it's a that so i suspect in some sense it's a feature of biology feature of biology feature of biology um um um it's probably a feature of mortality it's probably a feature of mortality it's probably a feature of mortality it's probably but beyond all of that but beyond all of that i mean i guess there's two ways you i mean i guess there's two ways you i mean i guess there's two ways you could come at it there's one of them could come at it there's one of them could come at it there's one of them would be to say well would be to say well would be to say well you can effectively do do the math and you can effectively do do the math and you can effectively do do the math and come to the conclusion that it's all come to the conclusion that it's all come to the conclusion that it's all pointless and there's really no point in pointless and there's really no point in pointless and there's really no point in me being here any longer me being here any longer me being here any longer um um um and maybe that's true in the greater and maybe that's true in the greater and maybe that's true in the greater scheme of things scheme of things scheme of things you can justify yourself in terms of you can justify yourself in terms of you can justify yourself in terms of society but society will be gone soon society but society will be gone soon society but society will be gone soon enough as well and you end up with a enough as well and you end up with a enough as well and you end up with a very bleak place just by very bleak place just by very bleak place just by logic in some sense it's surprising that logic in some sense it's surprising that logic in some sense it's surprising that we can find any meaning at all we can find any meaning at all we can find any meaning at all well maybe this is where consciousness well maybe this is where consciousness well maybe this is where consciousness comes in that we we have transient joy comes in that we we have transient joy comes in that we we have transient joy but with transient joy we have transient

but with transient joy we have transient but with transient joy we have transient misery as well and and sometimes misery as well and and sometimes misery as well and and sometimes with everything in biology with everything in biology with everything in biology um um um getting the regulation right is getting the regulation right is getting the regulation right is practically impossible practically impossible practically impossible you will always have a bell-shaped curve you will always have a bell-shaped curve you will always have a bell-shaped curve where some people unfortunately are at where some people unfortunately are at where some people unfortunately are at the joy end and some people are at the the joy end and some people are at the the joy end and some people are at the misery end and misery end and misery end and you know that's the way brains are wired you know that's the way brains are wired you know that's the way brains are wired and and and i i doubt there's ever an escape from i i doubt there's ever an escape from i i doubt there's ever an escape from that it's the same with sex and that it's the same with sex and that it's the same with sex and everything else as well we're dealing everything else as well we're dealing everything else as well we're dealing with it whether whether you know you you with it whether whether you know you you with it whether whether you know you you can't regulate it so can't regulate it so can't regulate it so it's um it's um it's um any anything goes it's all part of any anything goes it's all part of any anything goes it's all part of biology amen to that amen to that let me uh let me uh let me uh on writing on writing on writing in uh in uh in uh your book power sex and suicide first of your book power sex and suicide first of your book power sex and suicide first of all can i just read off the books you've all can i just read off the books you've all can i just read off the books you've written written written if there's any better titles and topics if there's any better titles and topics if there's any better titles and topics to be covered i don't know what they are to be covered i don't know what they are to be covered i don't know what they are it makes me look forward to whatever it makes me look forward to whatever it makes me look forward to whatever you're going to write next i hope you're going to write next i hope you're going to write next i hope there's there's there's things you write next so you first you things you write next so you first you things you write next so you first you wrote oxygen the molecule that made the wrote oxygen the molecule that made the wrote oxygen the molecule that made the world as we've talked about this world as we've talked about this world as we've talked about this idea of the role of oxygen in life on idea of the role of oxygen in life on idea of the role of oxygen in life on earth then wait for it earth then wait for it earth then wait for it power sex suicide mitochondria and the power sex suicide mitochondria and the power sex suicide mitochondria and the meaning of life meaning of life meaning of life then life ascending the 10 great then life ascending the 10 great then life ascending the 10 great inventions of evolution the vital inventions of evolution the vital inventions of evolution the vital question the first book i've read of question the first book i've read of question the first book i've read of yours the vital question why is life the yours the vital question why is life the yours the vital question why is life the way it is and the new book transformer way it is and the new book transformer way it is and the new book transformer the deep chemistry of life and death the deep chemistry of life and death the deep chemistry of life and death in uh power sex and suicide

in uh power sex and suicide in uh power sex and suicide you write about writing or about a lot you write about writing or about a lot you write about writing or about a lot of things but i i have a question about of things but i i have a question about of things but i i have a question about writing writing writing you write you write you write in the hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy in the hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy in the hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy ford perfect spends 15 years researching ford perfect spends 15 years researching ford perfect spends 15 years researching his revision to the guide's entry on the his revision to the guide's entry on the his revision to the guide's entry on the earth which originally read earth which originally read earth which originally read harmless harmless harmless by the way i would also as a side quest by the way i would also as a side quest by the way i would also as a side quest as a side question would like to ask you as a side question would like to ask you as a side question would like to ask you what would be your summary of what earth what would be your summary of what earth what would be your summary of what earth is is is you're right his long essay on the you're right his long essay on the you're right his long essay on the subject is edited down by the guide to subject is edited down by the guide to subject is edited down by the guide to read read read mostly harmless mostly harmless mostly harmless i suspect that i suspect that i suspect that too many new additions suffer similar too many new additions suffer similar too many new additions suffer similar fate if not through absurd editing fate if not through absurd editing fate if not through absurd editing decisions at least through a lack of decisions at least through a lack of decisions at least through a lack of meaningful change in content as it meaningful change in content as it meaningful change in content as it happens nearly 15 years have passed happens nearly 15 years have passed happens nearly 15 years have passed since the first edition of power sex since the first edition of power sex since the first edition of power sex suicide was published and i am resisting suicide was published and i am resisting suicide was published and i am resisting the temptation to make any lame the temptation to make any lame the temptation to make any lame revisions revisions revisions some say that even darwin lessen the some say that even darwin lessen the some say that even darwin lessen the power of his arguments in the origin of power of his arguments in the origin of power of his arguments in the origin of species there's multiple revisions in species there's multiple revisions in species there's multiple revisions in which he dealt with criticisms and which he dealt with criticisms and which he dealt with criticisms and sometimes shifted his views in the wrong sometimes shifted his views in the wrong sometimes shifted his views in the wrong direction direction direction i prefer my original to speak for itself i prefer my original to speak for itself i prefer my original to speak for itself even if it turns out to be wrong even if it turns out to be wrong even if it turns out to be wrong let me ask the question about writing let me ask the question about writing let me ask the question about writing both your students in the academic both your students in the academic both your students in the academic setting but also writing some of the setting but also writing some of the setting but also writing some of the most brilliant writings on science and most brilliant writings on science and most brilliant writings on science and humanity i've ever read what's the humanity i've ever read what's the humanity i've ever read what's the process of process of process of writing how how do you advise

other humans other humans if you if you were to talk to young if you if you were to talk to young if you if you were to talk to young darwin or the young young you darwin or the young young you darwin or the young young you and uh just young anybody and give and uh just young anybody and give and uh just young anybody and give advice about how to write and how to advice about how to write and how to advice about how to write and how to write well about these big topics what write well about these big topics what write well about these big topics what would you say would you say would you say i said i mean i suppose there's a couple i said i mean i suppose there's a couple i said i mean i suppose there's a couple there's a couple of there's a couple of there's a couple of points one of them is um points one of them is um points one of them is um what's the story what's the story what's the story what do i want to know what do i want to what do i want to know what do i want to what do i want to know what do i want to convey convey convey why does it matter to anybody why does it matter to anybody why does it matter to anybody and and very often the most and and very often the most and and very often the most the biggest most interesting questions the biggest most interesting questions the biggest most interesting questions um um um the child-like the child-like the child-like questions questions questions are the are the are the the one actually that everybody wants to the one actually that everybody wants to the one actually that everybody wants to ask but don't quite do it in case they ask but don't quite do it in case they ask but don't quite do it in case they look stupid um and one of the nice look stupid um and one of the nice look stupid um and one of the nice things about being in science is you the things about being in science is you the things about being in science is you the more the longer you're in the more you more the longer you're in the more you more the longer you're in the more you realize that everybody doesn't know the realize that everybody doesn't know the realize that everybody doesn't know the answer to these questions and it's not answer to these questions and it's not answer to these questions and it's not so stupid to ask them after all yes um so stupid to ask them after all yes um so stupid to ask them after all yes um so so so so trying to ask the questions that so trying to ask the questions that so trying to ask the questions that i would have been asking myself at the i would have been asking myself at the i would have been asking myself at the age of 15 16 when i when i was really age of 15 16 when i when i was really age of 15 16 when i when i was really hungry to know about the world and hungry to know about the world and hungry to know about the world and didn't know very much about it and and didn't know very much about it and and didn't know very much about it and and um um um wanted to be wanted to be wanted to be wanted to go to the edge of what we know wanted to go to the edge of what we know wanted to go to the edge of what we know but but but um um um but be helped to get there i i don't but be helped to get there i i don't but be helped to get there i i don't want to be you know want to be you know want to be you know too much terminology and so i i want too much terminology and so i i want too much terminology and so i i want someone to keep a clean eye on what the someone to keep a clean eye on what the someone to keep a clean eye on what the question is question is question is um um um beyond that beyond that beyond that i i've wondered a lot i've about who who i i've wondered a lot i've about who who i i've wondered a lot i've about who who am i writing for

am i writing for am i writing for and that was in the end and that was in the end and that was in the end the only answer i had was was myself at the only answer i had was was myself at the only answer i had was was myself at the age of 15 or 16. 16 the age of 15 or 16. 16 the age of 15 or 16. 16 because because because even if you're you know you can even if you're you know you can even if you're you know you can you just don't know who who's reading you just don't know who who's reading you just don't know who who's reading but also where are they reading it but also where are they reading it but also where are they reading it are they reading it in the bath or in are they reading it in the bath or in are they reading it in the bath or in bed or on the on the metro or or bed or on the on the metro or or bed or on the on the metro or or are they listening to an audiobook are they listening to an audiobook are they listening to an audiobook do you want to have a do you want to have a do you want to have a you know a recapitulation you know a recapitulation you know a recapitulation every few pages because you read three every few pages because you read three every few pages because you read three pages at a time or or are you really pages at a time or or are you really pages at a time or or are you really irritated by that you know you're going irritated by that you know you're going irritated by that you know you're going to get criticism to get criticism to get criticism from people who are irritated by what from people who are irritated by what from people who are irritated by what you're doing and you don't know who they you're doing and you don't know who they you're doing and you don't know who they are or what you're going to do that's are or what you're going to do that's are or what you're going to do that's going to irritate people and in the end going to irritate people and in the end going to irritate people and in the end all you can do is just try and all you can do is just try and all you can do is just try and please yourself please yourself please yourself and that means what are these big fun and that means what are these big fun and that means what are these big fun fascinating in big questions fascinating in big questions fascinating in big questions and what do we know about it and what do we know about it and what do we know about it and and can i convey that and i kind of and and can i convey that and i kind of and and can i convey that and i kind of learned in trying to write learned in trying to write learned in trying to write um first of all um first of all um first of all say what we know say what we know say what we know and i was shocked in the first couple of and i was shocked in the first couple of and i was shocked in the first couple of books how often i came up quickly books how often i came up quickly books how often i came up quickly against all the stuff we don't know against all the stuff we don't know against all the stuff we don't know uh and if you're trying to uh and if you're trying to uh and if you're trying to i've realized later on in in in i've realized later on in in in i've realized later on in in in in supervising various physicists and in supervising various physicists and in supervising various physicists and mathematicians who are phd students and mathematicians who are phd students and mathematicians who are phd students and i you know their math is way beyond what i you know their math is way beyond what i you know their math is way beyond what i can do i can do i can do but the process of trying to work out but the process of trying to work out but the process of trying to work out what are we actually going to model here what are we actually going to model here what are we actually going to model here what's going into this equation is a what's going into this equation is a what's going into this equation is a very similar one to writing what am i very similar one to writing what am i very similar one to writing what am i going to put on a page what's the going to put on a page what's the going to put on a page what's the simplest possible way i can encapsulate

simplest possible way i can encapsulate simplest possible way i can encapsulate this idea so that i now have it as a this idea so that i now have it as a this idea so that i now have it as a unit that i can kind of see how it unit that i can kind of see how it unit that i can kind of see how it interacts with the other units interacts with the other units interacts with the other units and you realize that well if this is and you realize that well if this is and you realize that well if this is like that and this is like this then like that and this is like this then like that and this is like this then then that can't be true then that can't be true then that can't be true um um um so you end up navigating your own path so you end up navigating your own path so you end up navigating your own path through this landscape and that can be through this landscape and that can be through this landscape and that can be thrilling because you don't know where thrilling because you don't know where thrilling because you don't know where it's going it's going it's going um um um and i'd like to think that that's one of and i'd like to think that that's one of and i'd like to think that that's one of the reasons my books have worked for the reasons my books have worked for the reasons my books have worked for people because this sense of the people because this sense of the people because this sense of the thrilling adventure ride i don't know thrilling adventure ride i don't know thrilling adventure ride i don't know where it's going either where it's going either where it's going either so the finding the simplest possible way so the finding the simplest possible way so the finding the simplest possible way to explain the things we know and the to explain the things we know and the to explain the things we know and the simplest possible way to explain the simplest possible way to explain the simplest possible way to explain the things we don't know and the tension things we don't know and the tension things we don't know and the tension between those two and that's where the between those two and that's where the between those two and that's where the story emerges story emerges story emerges what about the edit what about the edit what about the edit do you find yourself do you find yourself do you find yourself to the point of this to the point of this to the point of this uh uh uh you know editing dial to mostly harmless you know editing dial to mostly harmless you know editing dial to mostly harmless to arrive at simplicity do you find to arrive at simplicity do you find to arrive at simplicity do you find the edit as productive or does it the edit as productive or does it the edit as productive or does it destroy the the magic that was destroy the the magic that was destroy the the magic that was originally there originally there originally there no i usually find i i think i'm perhaps no i usually find i i think i'm perhaps no i usually find i i think i'm perhaps a better editor than i am a writer i i a better editor than i am a writer i i a better editor than i am a writer i i write and rewrite and rewrite and write and rewrite and rewrite and write and rewrite and rewrite and rewrite put a bunch of crap on the page rewrite put a bunch of crap on the page rewrite put a bunch of crap on the page first and then see first and then see first and then see the edit where it takes yeah the edit where it takes yeah the edit where it takes yeah but then then there's the professional but then then there's the professional but then then there's the professional editors who come along as well and um i editors who come along as well and um i editors who come along as well and um i mean mean mean in in transformer um in in transformer um in in transformer um the editor came back to me uh after i the editor came back to me uh after i the editor came back to me uh after i sent him two months after i sent the sent him two months after i sent the sent him two months after i sent the first edition he'd read the whole thing first edition he'd read the whole thing first edition he'd read the whole thing and he said and he said and he said the first two chapters prevent a the first two chapters prevent a the first two chapters prevent a formidable hurdle to the general reader formidable hurdle to the general reader formidable hurdle to the general reader go and do something about it yes and

go and do something about it yes and go and do something about it yes and it was the last thing i really wanted it was the last thing i really wanted it was the last thing i really wanted your editor sounds very eloquent in your editor sounds very eloquent in your editor sounds very eloquent in speech yeah well this wasn't this was an speech yeah well this wasn't this was an speech yeah well this wasn't this was an email but uh i i i i thought about it email but uh i i i i thought about it email but uh i i i i thought about it and you know the bottom line is he was and you know the bottom line is he was and you know the bottom line is he was right right right and so i put the whole thing aside for and so i put the whole thing aside for and so i put the whole thing aside for about two months about two months about two months uh spent the summer this would have been uh spent the summer this would have been uh spent the summer this would have been i guess last summer i guess last summer i guess last summer uh and then turned to it with full uh and then turned to it with full uh and then turned to it with full attention in about september or attention in about september or attention in about september or something and rewrote those chapters something and rewrote those chapters something and rewrote those chapters almost from scratch i kept some of the almost from scratch i kept some of the almost from scratch i kept some of the material but material but material but it took me a long time to process it to it took me a long time to process it to it took me a long time to process it to work out what needs to change where does work out what needs to change where does work out what needs to change where does it need to i wasn't writing in this time it need to i wasn't writing in this time it need to i wasn't writing in this time how am i going to tell this story better how am i going to tell this story better how am i going to tell this story better so it's more accessible and interesting so it's more accessible and interesting so it's more accessible and interesting and in the end and in the end and in the end i think it was still it's still i think it was still it's still i think it was still it's still difficult it's still biochemistry but difficult it's still biochemistry but difficult it's still biochemistry but but it has he ended up saying now he's but it has he ended up saying now he's but it has he ended up saying now he's got a barreling energy to it and i was got a barreling energy to it and i was got a barreling energy to it and i was you know because he'd been because he you know because he'd been because he you know because he'd been because he told me the truth the first time i told me the truth the first time i told me the truth the first time i decided to believe that he was telling decided to believe that he was telling decided to believe that he was telling me the truth the second time as well and me the truth the second time as well and me the truth the second time as well and was was was was was was delighted delighted delighted could you give advice to young people in could you give advice to young people in could you give advice to young people in general general general uh folks in high school folks in college uh folks in high school folks in college uh folks in high school folks in college how to take on some of the big questions how to take on some of the big questions how to take on some of the big questions you've taken on now you've done that in you've taken on now you've done that in you've taken on now you've done that in the space of biology and expanded out the space of biology and expanded out the space of biology and expanded out how can they have a career they can be proud of or have a career they can be proud of or have a life they can be proud of have a life they can be proud of have a life they can be proud of gosh gosh gosh that's a big question that's a big question that's a big question i'm um i'm sure you've gathered some i'm um i'm sure you've gathered some i'm um i'm sure you've gathered some wisdom wisdom wisdom you can um impart you can um impart you can um impart yeah just so the only advice that i

yeah just so the only advice that i yeah just so the only advice that i actually ever give to my students actually ever give to my students actually ever give to my students um is um is um is follow what you're interested in follow what you're interested in follow what you're interested in because they they're often because they they're often because they they're often worried that if they make this decision worried that if they make this decision worried that if they make this decision now and and do this course instead of now and and do this course instead of now and and do this course instead of that course then they're going to that course then they're going to that course then they're going to restrict their career opportunities and restrict their career opportunities and restrict their career opportunities and um um um there isn't a career path in science there isn't a career path in science there isn't a career path in science it's it's not i mean that there is but it's it's not i mean that there is but it's it's not i mean that there is but there isn't um there isn't um there isn't um there's a lot of competition there's a there's a lot of competition there's a there's a lot of competition there's a lot of death lot of death lot of death symbolically symbolically symbolically um so who survives um so who survives um so who survives the people who survive are the people the people who survive are the people the people who survive are the people who who who care care care enough enough enough to still do it and they're very often to still do it and they're very often to still do it and they're very often the people who the people who the people who don't worry too much about the future don't worry too much about the future don't worry too much about the future and are able to live in the present and are able to live in the present and are able to live in the present because if you you know you do a phd because if you you know you do a phd because if you you know you do a phd you've competed hard to get onto the phd you've competed hard to get onto the phd you've competed hard to get onto the phd then you have to compete hard to get a then you have to compete hard to get a then you have to compete hard to get a post-doc job and post-doc job and post-doc job and you have you know the next bond maybe on you have you know the next bond maybe on you have you know the next bond maybe on another continent and it's only two another continent and it's only two another continent and it's only two years anyway and and so and there's no years anyway and and so and there's no years anyway and and so and there's no there's no uh guarantee you're going to there's no uh guarantee you're going to there's no uh guarantee you're going to get a faculty position at the end of it get a faculty position at the end of it get a faculty position at the end of it so and there's always the next step to so and there's always the next step to so and there's always the next step to compete if you get a faculty position compete if you get a faculty position compete if you get a faculty position you get a tenure and with 10 you go full you get a tenure and with 10 you go full you get a tenure and with 10 you go full professor and full professor then you go professor and full professor then you go professor and full professor then you go to some kind of whatever the discipline to some kind of whatever the discipline to some kind of whatever the discipline is there's an award if you're in physics is there's an award if you're in physics is there's an award if you're in physics you're always competing for the nobel you're always competing for the nobel you're always competing for the nobel prize there's different awards yeah and prize there's different awards yeah and prize there's different awards yeah and then eventually you're all competing to then eventually you're all competing to then eventually you're all competing to i mean there's always a competition so i mean there's always a competition so i mean there's always a competition so there is no happiness happiness does not there is no happiness happiness does not there is no happiness happiness does not lie if you're looking into the future lie if you're looking into the future lie if you're looking into the future yes and if what you're caring about is a

yes and if what you're caring about is a yes and if what you're caring about is a career then then career then then career then then it's probably not the one for you it's probably not the one for you it's probably not the one for you if though you can put that aside and you if though you can put that aside and you if though you can put that aside and you know i've also worked in industry for a know i've also worked in industry for a know i've also worked in industry for a brief period and uh and i was made brief period and uh and i was made brief period and uh and i was made redundant twice so i i know that uh that you know there's no guarantee she got a you know there's no guarantee she got a career that way either yes career that way either yes career that way either yes so so so so so so live in the moment live in the moment live in the moment and try and enjoy what you're doing and and try and enjoy what you're doing and and try and enjoy what you're doing and that means really that means really that means really go to the go to the themes that you're most go to the themes that you're most interested in and try and follow them as interested in and try and follow them as interested in and try and follow them as well as you can and and that well as you can and and that well as you can and and that tends to pay back in surprising ways i tends to pay back in surprising ways i tends to pay back in surprising ways i don't know if you've found this as well don't know if you've found this as well don't know if you've found this as well but i i found that but i i found that but i i found that um um um people will help you often if they people will help you often if they people will help you often if they see some light shining in the eye see some light shining in the eye see some light shining in the eye and you're excited about their subject and you're excited about their subject and you're excited about their subject um um um and and you know just want to talk about and and you know just want to talk about and and you know just want to talk about it it it and they know that their friend in and they know that their friend in and they know that their friend in california's got a job coming up they'll california's got a job coming up they'll california's got a job coming up they'll say go for this this guy's all right you say go for this this guy's all right you say go for this this guy's all right you know know know they'll they'll they'll use the network they'll they'll they'll use the network they'll they'll they'll use the network to help you out if you really care and to help you out if you really care and to help you out if you really care and you're not going to have a job two years you're not going to have a job two years you're not going to have a job two years down the line but if you what you really down the line but if you what you really down the line but if you what you really care about is what you're doing now care about is what you're doing now care about is what you're doing now then it doesn't matter if you have a job then it doesn't matter if you have a job then it doesn't matter if you have a job in two years time or not it'll work in two years time or not it'll work in two years time or not it'll work itself out if you've got the light in itself out if you've got the light in itself out if you've got the light in your eye your eye your eye um and so um and so um and so that's the only advice i can give and that's the only advice i can give and that's the only advice i can give and most people most people most people probably probably probably drop out through that system because the drop out through that system because the drop out through that system because the fight is just not worth it for them

fight is just not worth it for them fight is just not worth it for them yeah when you have the light in your eye yeah when you have the light in your eye yeah when you have the light in your eye when you have the excitement for the when you have the excitement for the when you have the excitement for the thing what happens is you start to thing what happens is you start to thing what happens is you start to surround yourself with others they're surround yourself with others they're surround yourself with others they're interested in that same thing that also interested in that same thing that also interested in that same thing that also have the light if you really are have the light if you really are have the light if you really are rigorous about this because i think it rigorous about this because i think it rigorous about this because i think it does take it's it doesn't does take it's it doesn't does take it's it doesn't it takes effort it takes effort it takes effort to make oh you've got to be obsessive to make oh you've got to be obsessive to make oh you've got to be obsessive but but if you're doing what you really but but if you're doing what you really but but if you're doing what you really love doing then it's not work anymore love doing then it's not work anymore love doing then it's not work anymore it's what you do yeah but i also mean it's what you do yeah but i also mean it's what you do yeah but i also mean the surrounding yourself with other the surrounding yourself with other the surrounding yourself with other people that are obsessed about the same people that are obsessed about the same people that are obsessed about the same thing because thing because thing because depending on that takes some work as depending on that takes some work as depending on that takes some work as well yeah you know and look finding the well yeah you know and look finding the well yeah you know and look finding the right yeah finding the right mentors the right yeah finding the right mentors the right yeah finding the right mentors the collaborators because i think one of the collaborators because i think one of the collaborators because i think one of the problem with problem with problem with the phd processes the phd processes the phd processes people are not careful enough in picking people are not careful enough in picking people are not careful enough in picking their mentors those are people their mentors those are people their mentors those are people mentors and colleagues and so on those mentors and colleagues and so on those mentors and colleagues and so on those are people going to define are people going to define are people going to define the the direction of your life the the direction of your life the the direction of your life how much you love a thing how much i how much you love a thing how much i how much you love a thing how much i mean the power of just like the few mean the power of just like the few mean the power of just like the few little conversations you have little conversations you have little conversations you have in the hallway in the hallway in the hallway it's it's incredible so you have to be a it's it's incredible so you have to be a it's it's incredible so you have to be a little bit careful in that little bit careful in that little bit careful in that sometimes you just get randomly almost sometimes you just get randomly almost sometimes you just get randomly almost assigned um assigned um assigned um really really really pursue pursue pursue i suppose the subject i suppose the subject i suppose the subject as much as you pursue the people that do as much as you pursue the people that do as much as you pursue the people that do that subject so like both the whole that subject so like both the whole that subject so like both the whole dance of it they kind of go together dance of it they kind of go together dance of it they kind of go together really yeah they do they really do but really yeah they do they really do but really yeah they do they really do but take that that take that that take that that that part seriously and probably in the that part seriously and probably in the that part seriously and probably in the way you're describing it way you're describing it way you're describing it careful how you define success

careful how you define success careful how you define success because uh you'll never find happiness because uh you'll never find happiness because uh you'll never find happiness in success and there's a lovely quote uh in success and there's a lovely quote uh in success and there's a lovely quote uh from robert lewis stevenson i think who from robert lewis stevenson i think who from robert lewis stevenson i think who said nothing in life is so disenchanting said nothing in life is so disenchanting said nothing in life is so disenchanting as attainment as attainment as attainment yeah so i mean in in some sense yeah so i mean in in some sense yeah so i mean in in some sense the the the true definition of success the the the true definition of success the the the true definition of success is is is you're getting to do today you're getting to do today you're getting to do today what you really enjoy doing just uh what what you really enjoy doing just uh what what you really enjoy doing just uh what fills you with joy and that's ultimately fills you with joy and that's ultimately fills you with joy and that's ultimately success so success isn't the thing success so success isn't the thing success so success isn't the thing beyond the horizon the big stat the the beyond the horizon the big stat the the beyond the horizon the big stat the the the big trophy the the financial i think the big trophy the the financial i think the big trophy the the financial i think it's it's as close as we can get to it's it's as close as we can get to it's it's as close as we can get to happiness that's not to say you're full happiness that's not to say you're full happiness that's not to say you're full of joy all the time but it's it's as of joy all the time but it's it's as of joy all the time but it's it's as close as we can get to a sustained human close as we can get to a sustained human close as we can get to a sustained human happiness is by getting some fulfillment happiness is by getting some fulfillment happiness is by getting some fulfillment from what you're doing on a daily basis from what you're doing on a daily basis from what you're doing on a daily basis and if what you're looking for and if what you're looking for and if what you're looking for is the is the is the the the world giving you the stamp of the the world giving you the stamp of the the world giving you the stamp of approval with a nobel prize or a approval with a nobel prize or a approval with a nobel prize or a fellowship or whatever it is then fellowship or whatever it is then fellowship or whatever it is then you know i've known people like this who you know i've known people like this who you know i've known people like this who they they they they're eaten away by the they're eaten away by the they're eaten away by the by the anger kind of caustic by the anger kind of caustic by the anger kind of caustic resentment that they've not been awarded resentment that they've not been awarded resentment that they've not been awarded this prize that they deserve this prize that they deserve this prize that they deserve and the other way if you put too much and the other way if you put too much and the other way if you put too much value into those kinds of prizes and you value into those kinds of prizes and you value into those kinds of prizes and you win them win them win them i've got the chance to see i've got the chance to see i've got the chance to see that it also the more quote-unquote successful you the more quote-unquote successful you are in that sense the more you run the are in that sense the more you run the are in that sense the more you run the danger of danger of danger of um um um growing ego so big that you don't get to

growing ego so big that you don't get to growing ego so big that you don't get to actually actually actually enjoy the beauty of this life you start enjoy the beauty of this life you start enjoy the beauty of this life you start to believe that you figured it all out to believe that you figured it all out to believe that you figured it all out as opposed to as opposed to as opposed to i think what the ultimately the most fun i think what the ultimately the most fun i think what the ultimately the most fun thing is is being curious about thing is is being curious about thing is is being curious about everything around you being constantly everything around you being constantly everything around you being constantly surprised and uh these little moments of surprised and uh these little moments of surprised and uh these little moments of discovery of enjoying enjoying beauty in discovery of enjoying enjoying beauty in discovery of enjoying enjoying beauty in small and big ways all around you and i small and big ways all around you and i small and big ways all around you and i think the bigger your ego grows the more think the bigger your ego grows the more think the bigger your ego grows the more you start to take yourself seriously the you start to take yourself seriously the you start to take yourself seriously the less you're able to enjoy that oh man i less you're able to enjoy that oh man i less you're able to enjoy that oh man i couldn't agree more couldn't agree more couldn't agree more um so you know the the summary from um so you know the the summary from um so you know the the summary from harmless to mostly harmless harmless to mostly harmless harmless to mostly harmless in hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy how in hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy how in hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy how would you try to summarize would you try to summarize would you try to summarize earth and um earth and um earth and um you know if you were given you know if you were given you know if you were given if you have to summarize the whole thing if you have to summarize the whole thing if you have to summarize the whole thing in in a couple of sentences and maybe in in a couple of sentences and maybe in in a couple of sentences and maybe throwing meaning of life in there like throwing meaning of life in there like throwing meaning of life in there like what why why what why why what why why why why why maybe is that a defining thing about maybe is that a defining thing about maybe is that a defining thing about humans that we care about the meaning humans that we care about the meaning humans that we care about the meaning of the whole thing of the whole thing of the whole thing i wonder i wonder if that should be part i wonder i wonder if that should be part i wonder i wonder if that should be part of the the the these creatures seem to of the the the these creatures seem to of the the the these creatures seem to be very lost be very lost be very lost yes they're always asking why i mean yes they're always asking why i mean yes they're always asking why i mean that's my defining question is why that's my defining question is why that's my defining question is why it was uh people used to made a joke i have a people used to made a joke i have a small scar on my forehead from a small scar on my forehead from a small scar on my forehead from a climbing accident years ago climbing accident years ago climbing accident years ago uh and the guy i was climbing with had uh and the guy i was climbing with had uh and the guy i was climbing with had dislodged a rock and he shouted dislodged a rock and he shouted dislodged a rock and he shouted something he shot below i think meaning something he shot below i think meaning something he shot below i think meaning that the rock was coming down that the rock was coming down that the rock was coming down and uh and i hadn't caught what he said and uh and i hadn't caught what he said and uh and i hadn't caught what he said so i looked up and smashed straight on so i looked up and smashed straight on so i looked up and smashed straight on my forehead and um and everybody around

my forehead and um and everybody around my forehead and um and everybody around me me me took the piss saying he he looked up to took the piss saying he he looked up to took the piss saying he he looked up to ask why yeah but that that's a human imperative yeah but that that's a human imperative that's part of what it means to be human that's part of what it means to be human that's part of what it means to be human look up to the sky and ask why look up to the sky and ask why look up to the sky and ask why and ask why and ask why and ask why uh so your question defined the earth i'm not sure i can do that i mean the i'm not sure i can do that i mean the first word that comes to mind is living i wouldn't like to say mostly living but i wouldn't like to say mostly living but perhaps perhaps perhaps mostly well it's interesting because mostly well it's interesting because mostly well it's interesting because like if you were to to write the like if you were to to write the like if you were to to write the hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy i suppose i suppose i suppose say our idea say our idea say our idea uh that we talked about the bacteria is uh that we talked about the bacteria is uh that we talked about the bacteria is the most prominent form of life the most prominent form of life the most prominent form of life throughout throughout throughout the galaxy in the universe the galaxy in the universe the galaxy in the universe i suppose the earth would be kind of i suppose the earth would be kind of i suppose the earth would be kind of unique unique unique and would require abundance in that case and would require abundance in that case and would require abundance in that case yeah it's profligate it's rich it's yeah it's profligate it's rich it's yeah it's profligate it's rich it's enormously enormously living enormously enormously living enormously enormously living so how how would you describe that it's so how how would you describe that it's so how how would you describe that it's not bacteria not bacteria not bacteria it's it's it's um um um eukaryotic eukaryotic eukaryotic yeah well i mean that's that's the yeah well i mean that's that's the yeah well i mean that's that's the technical term but it is basically it's technical term but it is basically it's technical term but it is basically it's uh uh uh uh uh uh yeah and then how would i describe that yeah and then how would i describe that yeah and then how would i describe that i i've i've actually really struggled i i've i've actually really struggled i i've i've actually really struggled with that term because with that term because with that term because the word i mean there's a few words the word i mean there's a few words the word i mean there's a few words quite as good as eukaryotic to put

quite as good as eukaryotic to put quite as good as eukaryotic to put everybody off immediately you start everybody off immediately you start everybody off immediately you start using words like that and they'll leave using words like that and they'll leave using words like that and they'll leave the room the room the room a krebs cycle is another one that gets a krebs cycle is another one that gets a krebs cycle is another one that gets people to leave the room people to leave the room people to leave the room but but but um um um but i've tried to think is there another but i've tried to think is there another but i've tried to think is there another word for eukaryotic that i can use and word for eukaryotic that i can use and word for eukaryotic that i can use and really the only word that i've i've been really the only word that i've i've been really the only word that i've i've been able to use is complex able to use is complex able to use is complex complex cells complex cells complex cells uh complex life and so on and that word uh complex life and so on and that word uh complex life and so on and that word it it serves one immediate purpose which it it serves one immediate purpose which it it serves one immediate purpose which is to convey is to convey is to convey an impression an impression an impression but then it it but then it it but then it it it means so many different things just it means so many different things just it means so many different things just everybody everybody everybody that actually is lost immediately and so that actually is lost immediately and so that actually is lost immediately and so it's kind of it's kind of it's kind of well that's unnoticeable from the well that's unnoticeable from the well that's unnoticeable from the perspective of other planets that is the perspective of other planets that is the perspective of other planets that is the noticeable noticeable noticeable face transition of complexity is the face transition of complexity is the face transition of complexity is the eukaryotic what about the harmless and the mostly what about the harmless and the mostly harmless is that kind of harmless is that kind of harmless is that kind of probably accurate on a on a universal probably accurate on a on a universal probably accurate on a on a universal kind of scale kind of scale kind of scale i don't think that uh i don't think that uh i don't think that uh humanity is in any danger of disturbing humanity is in any danger of disturbing humanity is in any danger of disturbing the universe at the moment at the moment the universe at the moment at the moment the universe at the moment at the moment which is why the mostly which is why the mostly which is why the mostly we don't know depends what elon is up to we don't know depends what elon is up to we don't know depends what elon is up to that's how many rockets i think uh it'll that's how many rockets i think uh it'll that's how many rockets i think uh it'll be still even then a while be still even then a while be still even then a while i think before uh before we disturb the i think before uh before we disturb the i think before uh before we disturb the fabric of fabric of fabric of time and space was the aforementioned time and space was the aforementioned time and space was the aforementioned andrei carpathi i think he summarized andrei carpathi i think he summarized andrei carpathi i think he summarized earth earth earth as um as um as um as a system as a system as a system where you uh hammer it with a bunch of

where you uh hammer it with a bunch of where you uh hammer it with a bunch of photons photons photons the input is like photons and the output the input is like photons and the output the input is like photons and the output is rockets is rockets is rockets see if you just see if you just see if you just well that's a hell of a lot of photons well that's a hell of a lot of photons well that's a hell of a lot of photons before it was a rocket launcher yeah before it was a rocket launcher yeah before it was a rocket launcher yeah but like but like but like you know maybe maybe in the span of the you know maybe maybe in the span of the you know maybe maybe in the span of the universe it's not it's not that much universe it's not it's not that much universe it's not it's not that much time time time and so and i do wonder and so and i do wonder and so and i do wonder you know what the future is whether you know what the future is whether you know what the future is whether we're just in the early beginnings of we're just in the early beginnings of we're just in the early beginnings of this earth this earth this earth which is important when you try to which is important when you try to which is important when you try to summarize it summarize it summarize it or we're at the end or we're at the end or we're at the end where humans have finally where humans have finally where humans have finally gained the ability to destroy gained the ability to destroy gained the ability to destroy the entirety of this beautiful project the entirety of this beautiful project the entirety of this beautiful project we got going on we got going on we got going on now with nuclear weapons with engineered now with nuclear weapons with engineered now with nuclear weapons with engineered viruses with all those kinds of things viruses with all those kinds of things viruses with all those kinds of things or just inadvertently through global or just inadvertently through global or just inadvertently through global warming and pollution and so on warming and pollution and so on warming and pollution and so on we're quite capable of i mean we just we're quite capable of i mean we just we're quite capable of i mean we just need to slowly need to slowly need to slowly i mean i think we're more likely to do i mean i think we're more likely to do i mean i think we're more likely to do it inadvertently than than through a it inadvertently than than through a it inadvertently than than through a nuclear war which could happen at any nuclear war which could happen at any nuclear war which could happen at any time but um time but um time but um my fear is my fear is my fear is is we just don't know where the tipping is we just don't know where the tipping is we just don't know where the tipping points are and we will points are and we will points are and we will we we kind of think we're smart enough we we kind of think we're smart enough we we kind of think we're smart enough to fix the problem quickly if we really to fix the problem quickly if we really to fix the problem quickly if we really need to i think that's that's the need to i think that's that's the need to i think that's that's the overriding assumption that overriding assumption that overriding assumption that we're all right for now maybe in 20 we're all right for now maybe in 20 we're all right for now maybe in 20 years time it's going to be a calamitous years time it's going to be a calamitous years time it's going to be a calamitous problem and then we'll really need to problem and then we'll really need to problem and then we'll really need to put some serious mental power into put some serious mental power into put some serious mental power into fixing it fixing it fixing it without seriously worrying that perhaps without seriously worrying that perhaps without seriously worrying that perhaps that is too late that is too late that is too late and that and that and that however brilliant we are however brilliant we are however brilliant we are it's uh we missed the boat

it's uh we missed the boat it's uh we missed the boat and just walk off the cliff and just walk off the cliff and just walk off the cliff i don't know i have optimism in humans i don't know i have optimism in humans i don't know i have optimism in humans being clever being clever being clever descendants oh i have no doubt that we descendants oh i have no doubt that we descendants oh i have no doubt that we can fix the problem can fix the problem can fix the problem but it's an urgent problem but it's an urgent problem but it's an urgent problem and we we need to fix it pretty sharpish and we we need to fix it pretty sharpish and we we need to fix it pretty sharpish and i i do have doubts about whether and i i do have doubts about whether and i i do have doubts about whether politically we are capable of coming politically we are capable of coming politically we are capable of coming together enough to uh together enough to uh together enough to uh not just not just not just in any one country but around the planet in any one country but around the planet in any one country but around the planet to just i mean i know we can do it but to just i mean i know we can do it but to just i mean i know we can do it but do we have the will do we have the the do we have the will do we have the the do we have the will do we have the the the vision to uh to accomplish it that's the vision to uh to accomplish it that's the vision to uh to accomplish it that's what makes this whole what makes this whole what makes this whole ride fun i don't know ride fun i don't know ride fun i don't know not only do we not know if we can handle not only do we not know if we can handle not only do we not know if we can handle the crises before us the crises before us the crises before us we don't even know all the crisis that we don't even know all the crisis that we don't even know all the crisis that are going to be before us in the next 20 are going to be before us in the next 20 are going to be before us in the next 20 years the the ones i think that will years the the ones i think that will years the the ones i think that will most likely challenge us most likely challenge us most likely challenge us in the 21st century are the ones we in the 21st century are the ones we in the 21st century are the ones we don't even expect people didn't expect don't even expect people didn't expect don't even expect people didn't expect world war ii at the end of world war one world war ii at the end of world war one world war ii at the end of world war one uh uh uh well well well yeah not at the end of world war one but yeah not at the end of world war one but yeah not at the end of world war one but by the 19 late 1920s i think people were by the 19 late 1920s i think people were by the 19 late 1920s i think people were beginning to worry about it yeah no beginning to worry about it yeah no beginning to worry about it yeah no there's always people worrying about there's always people worrying about there's always people worrying about everything yeah so if you focus on the everything yeah so if you focus on the everything yeah so if you focus on the thing that people worry about yes thing that people worry about yes thing that people worry about yes because there's a million things people because there's a million things people because there's a million things people worry about it and worry about it and worry about it and 99.99 of them don't come to be of course 99.99 of them don't come to be of course 99.99 of them don't come to be of course the people that turn out to be right the people that turn out to be right the people that turn out to be right they'll say i knew all along but that's they'll say i knew all along but that's they'll say i knew all along but that's not you know that's not an accurate way not you know that's not an accurate way not you know that's not an accurate way of knowing what sean could have of knowing what sean could have of knowing what sean could have predicted i think rationally speaking predicted i think rationally speaking predicted i think rationally speaking you can worry about it but nobody you can worry about it but nobody you can worry about it but nobody thought you could have another world war thought you could have another world war thought you could have another world war the war to end all wars why would you

the war to end all wars why would you the war to end all wars why would you have another war and the idea of nuclear have another war and the idea of nuclear have another war and the idea of nuclear weapons weapons weapons just technologically is a very difficult just technologically is a very difficult just technologically is a very difficult thing to anticipate to create a weapon thing to anticipate to create a weapon thing to anticipate to create a weapon that just jumps orders the magnitude and that just jumps orders the magnitude and that just jumps orders the magnitude and destructive capability destructive capability destructive capability and of course we can intuit all the and of course we can intuit all the and of course we can intuit all the things like engineered viruses things like engineered viruses things like engineered viruses nanobots artificial intelligence yes all the different yes all the different complicated global effects of global complicated global effects of global complicated global effects of global warming so how that changes the warming so how that changes the warming so how that changes the allocation of resources the flow of allocation of resources the flow of allocation of resources the flow of energy the tension between countries the energy the tension between countries the energy the tension between countries the military conflict between countries the military conflict between countries the military conflict between countries the reallocation of power then looking at reallocation of power then looking at reallocation of power then looking at the role of china in this whole thing the role of china in this whole thing the role of china in this whole thing with with russia and growing influence with with russia and growing influence with with russia and growing influence of africa and the weird dynamics of of africa and the weird dynamics of of africa and the weird dynamics of europe and then america falling apart europe and then america falling apart europe and then america falling apart through the political division fueled by through the political division fueled by through the political division fueled by uh recommender systems through twitter uh recommender systems through twitter uh recommender systems through twitter and facebook the whole beautiful mess and facebook the whole beautiful mess and facebook the whole beautiful mess is just fun and i think there's a lot of is just fun and i think there's a lot of is just fun and i think there's a lot of incredible engineers incredible incredible engineers incredible incredible engineers incredible scientists incredible human beings scientists incredible human beings scientists incredible human beings that while everyone is bickering and so that while everyone is bickering and so that while everyone is bickering and so on online for the fun of it on the on online for the fun of it on the on online for the fun of it on the weekends they're actually trying to weekends they're actually trying to weekends they're actually trying to build solutions and those are the people build solutions and those are the people build solutions and those are the people that will create something beautiful at that will create something beautiful at that will create something beautiful at least i have least i have least i have you know that's the process of evolution you know that's the process of evolution you know that's the process of evolution it's uh it's uh it's uh there was it all started with a chuck there was it all started with a chuck there was it all started with a chuck norris norris norris uh uh uh single cell organism that went out from single cell organism that went out from single cell organism that went out from the vents the vents the vents and was the parent to all of us and was the parent to all of us and was the parent to all of us and for for that guy or lady or both i

and for for that guy or lady or both i and for for that guy or lady or both i guess guess guess is a big thank you and i can't wait to is a big thank you and i can't wait to is a big thank you and i can't wait to what happens next and i'm glad there's what happens next and i'm glad there's what happens next and i'm glad there's incredible humans writing and studying incredible humans writing and studying incredible humans writing and studying it like you are nick it's a huge honor it like you are nick it's a huge honor it like you are nick it's a huge honor that you would talk to me this was that you would talk to me this was that you would talk to me this was fantastic this is really amazing i can't fantastic this is really amazing i can't fantastic this is really amazing i can't wait wait wait uh to read what you write next uh thank uh to read what you write next uh thank uh to read what you write next uh thank you for existing you for existing you for existing um um um and um thank you for talking today and um thank you for talking today and um thank you for talking today thank you thank you thank you thanks for listening to this thanks for listening to this thanks for listening to this conversation with nick lane to support conversation with nick lane to support conversation with nick lane to support this podcast please check out our this podcast please check out our this podcast please check out our sponsors in the description sponsors in the description sponsors in the description and now let me leave you with some words and now let me leave you with some words and now let me leave you with some words from steve jobs from steve jobs from steve jobs i think the biggest innovations of the i think the biggest innovations of the i think the biggest innovations of the 21st century will be at the intersection 21st century will be at the intersection 21st century will be at the intersection of biology and technology of biology and technology of biology and technology a new era is beginning a new era is beginning a new era is beginning thank you for listening i hope to see thank you for listening i hope to see thank you for listening i hope to see you next time