Jordan Peterson: Nietzsche, Hitler, God, Psychopathy, Suffering & Meaning | Lex Fridman Podcast #448

the following is a conversation with the following is a conversation with Jordan Peterson his second time on this Jordan Peterson his second time on this Jordan Peterson his second time on this The Lex fredman The Lex fredman The Lex fredman podcast you have given a set of lectures podcast you have given a set of lectures podcast you have given a set of lectures on ni as part of the new Peterson on ni as part of the new Peterson on ni as part of the new Peterson Academy and the lectures were powerful Academy and the lectures were powerful Academy and the lectures were powerful there's some element of the there's some element of the there's some element of the contradictions the tensions the drama contradictions the tensions the drama contradictions the tensions the drama the way you like lock in on an idea but the way you like lock in on an idea but the way you like lock in on an idea but then are struggling with that idea all then are struggling with that idea all then are struggling with that idea all of that that feels like it's a it's a of that that feels like it's a it's a of that that feels like it's a it's a nich and yeah well he has a big nich and yeah well he has a big nich and yeah well he has a big influence on me stylistically and influence on me stylistically and influence on me stylistically and like in terms of the way I approached like in terms of the way I approached like in terms of the way I approached writing and also many of the people that writing and also many of the people that writing and also many of the people that were other influences of mine were very were other influences of mine were very were other influences of mine were very influenced by him so I was blown away influenced by him so I was blown away influenced by him so I was blown away when I first came across his writings when I first came across his writings when I first came across his writings there're there're there're so they're so uh intellectually dense so they're so uh intellectually dense so they're so uh intellectually dense that I don't know if there's anything that I don't know if there's anything that I don't know if there's anything that approximates that dovi maybe that approximates that dovi maybe that approximates that dovi maybe although he's much more wordy nich is although he's much more wordy nich is although he's much more wordy nich is very succin partly cuz he was so ill CU very succin partly cuz he was so ill CU very succin partly cuz he was so ill CU he would think all day he couldn't spend he would think all day he couldn't spend he would think all day he couldn't spend a lot of time writing and he condens his a lot of time writing and he condens his a lot of time writing and he condens his writings into very short while this writings into very short while this writings into very short while this aphoristic style he had and it's it's aphoristic style he had and it's it's aphoristic style he had and it's it's really something to strive for and and really something to strive for and and really something to strive for and and then he's also an exciting writer like then he's also an exciting writer like then he's also an exciting writer like dovi and and dynamic and and romantic in dovi and and dynamic and and romantic in dovi and and dynamic and and romantic in that emotional way and so it's really that emotional way and so it's really that emotional way and so it's really something and I really enjoyed doing the something and I really enjoyed doing the something and I really enjoyed doing the I did that lecture that you described I did that lecture that you described I did that lecture that you described that lecture series is on the first half that lecture series is on the first half that lecture series is on the first half of Beyond Good and Evil which is a of Beyond Good and Evil which is a of Beyond Good and Evil which is a stunning book and uh stunning book and uh stunning book and uh that was really fun to take pieces of it

that was really fun to take pieces of it that was really fun to take pieces of it and then to describe what they mean and and then to describe what they mean and and then to describe what they mean and how they've echoed across the decades how they've echoed across the decades how they've echoed across the decades since he wrote them and yeah it's been since he wrote them and yeah it's been since he wrote them and yeah it's been great taking each sentence seriously and great taking each sentence seriously and great taking each sentence seriously and deconstructing it and really struggling deconstructing it and really struggling deconstructing it and really struggling with it I think underpinning that with it I think underpinning that with it I think underpinning that approach to writing requires deep approach to writing requires deep approach to writing requires deep respect for the person I think if we respect for the person I think if we respect for the person I think if we approach writing with that kind of approach writing with that kind of approach writing with that kind of respect you can take Orwell you can take respect you can take Orwell you can take respect you can take Orwell you can take a lot of writers and really d again on a lot of writers and really d again on a lot of writers and really d again on singular sentences yeah well those are singular sentences yeah well those are singular sentences yeah well those are the great writers because the greatest the great writers because the greatest the great writers because the greatest writers virtually everything they wrote writers virtually everything they wrote writers virtually everything they wrote is worth attending to know and and I is worth attending to know and and I is worth attending to know and and I think nich is in some ways the ultimate think nich is in some ways the ultimate think nich is in some ways the ultimate Exemplar of that Exemplar of that Exemplar of that because often when I read a book I'll because often when I read a book I'll because often when I read a book I'll mark one way or another I often fold the mark one way or another I often fold the mark one way or another I often fold the corner of the page over to indicate corner of the page over to indicate corner of the page over to indicate something that I've found that's worth something that I've found that's worth something that I've found that's worth remembering I couldn't do that with a remembering I couldn't do that with a remembering I couldn't do that with a book like Beyond Good and Evil because book like Beyond Good and Evil because book like Beyond Good and Evil because every page ends up marked and and that's every page ends up marked and and that's every page ends up marked and and that's in marked contrast so to speak to many in marked contrast so to speak to many in marked contrast so to speak to many of the books I read now where it's it's of the books I read now where it's it's of the books I read now where it's it's it's quite frequently now that I'll read it's quite frequently now that I'll read it's quite frequently now that I'll read a book and there won't be an idea in it a book and there won't be an idea in it a book and there won't be an idea in it that I haven't come across before and that I haven't come across before and that I haven't come across before and with a thinker like n that's just not with a thinker like n that's just not with a thinker like n that's just not the case at the sentence level and I the case at the sentence level and I the case at the sentence level and I don't think there's anyone that I know don't think there's anyone that I know don't think there's anyone that I know of who did that to a greater extent than of who did that to a greater extent than of who did that to a greater extent than he did so there's other people who whose he did so there's other people who whose he did so there's other people who whose thought is of equivalent value I've I've thought is of equivalent value I've I've thought is of equivalent value I've I've returned recently and I'm going to do a returned recently and I'm going to do a returned recently and I'm going to do a course on to the work of this Romanian course on to the work of this Romanian course on to the work of this Romanian historian of religion mer elata who's

historian of religion mer elata who's historian of religion mer elata who's not nearly as well known as he should be not nearly as well known as he should be not nearly as well known as he should be and whose work by the way is a real and whose work by the way is a real and whose work by the way is a real antidote to the postmodern nihilistic antidote to the postmodern nihilistic antidote to the postmodern nihilistic Marxist stream of literary Marxist stream of literary Marxist stream of literary interpretation that the universities as interpretation that the universities as interpretation that the universities as a whole have adopted and ilad is like a whole have adopted and ilad is like a whole have adopted and ilad is like that too I I was I used this book called that too I I was I used this book called that too I I was I used this book called The Sacred and the profane quite The Sacred and the profane quite The Sacred and the profane quite extensively in a book that I'm releasing extensively in a book that I'm releasing extensively in a book that I'm releasing in mid November we who wrestle with God in mid November we who wrestle with God in mid November we who wrestle with God and it's of the same sort it it it's and it's of the same sort it it it's and it's of the same sort it it it's endlessly endlessly endlessly analyzable I had to walked through the analyzable I had to walked through the analyzable I had to walked through the whole history of religious ideas and he whole history of religious ideas and he whole history of religious ideas and he had the intellect that enabled him to do had the intellect that enabled him to do had the intellect that enabled him to do that and everything he wrote is dream that and everything he wrote is dream that and everything he wrote is dream dream likee in its density dream likee in its density dream likee in its density so every sentence or paragraph is so every sentence or paragraph is so every sentence or paragraph is evocative in an imager Manner and that evocative in an imager Manner and that evocative in an imager Manner and that also what would you say deepens and also what would you say deepens and also what would you say deepens and broadens the scope and that's part of broadens the scope and that's part of broadens the scope and that's part of often what distinguishes writing that often what distinguishes writing that often what distinguishes writing that has a literary end from writing that's has a literary end from writing that's has a literary end from writing that's more merely technical like the literary more merely technical like the literary more merely technical like the literary writings have this imagistic and writings have this imagistic and writings have this imagistic and dreamlike reference space around them dreamlike reference space around them dreamlike reference space around them and it takes a it takes a long time to and it takes a it takes a long time to and it takes a it takes a long time to turn a complex image into something turn a complex image into something turn a complex image into something semantic and so if your writing evokes semantic and so if your writing evokes semantic and so if your writing evokes deep imagery it has a depth that can't deep imagery it has a depth that can't deep imagery it has a depth that can't be captured merely in words and the be captured merely in words and the be captured merely in words and the great romantic poetic philosophers n has great romantic poetic philosophers n has great romantic poetic philosophers n has a very good example dovi is a good a very good example dovi is a good a very good example dovi is a good example so is mer El they have that example so is mer El they have that example so is mer El they have that quality and it's a good way of thinking

quality and it's a good way of thinking quality and it's a good way of thinking about it you know it's kind of about it you know it's kind of about it you know it's kind of interesting from the perspective of interesting from the perspective of interesting from the perspective of technical analysis of intelligence technical analysis of intelligence technical analysis of intelligence there's a good book called the user there's a good book called the user there's a good book called the user illusion which is the best book on illusion which is the best book on illusion which is the best book on Consciousness that I ever read it Consciousness that I ever read it Consciousness that I ever read it explains the manner in which our explains the manner in which our explains the manner in which our communication is understandable in this communication is understandable in this communication is understandable in this manner so imagine that when you're manner so imagine that when you're manner so imagine that when you're communicating something you're trying to communicating something you're trying to communicating something you're trying to change the way that your target audience change the way that your target audience change the way that your target audience perceives and acts in the world so perceives and acts in the world so perceives and acts in the world so that's an embodied issue and but you're that's an embodied issue and but you're that's an embodied issue and but you're using words which aren't when obviously using words which aren't when obviously using words which aren't when obviously aren't equivalent to the actions aren't equivalent to the actions aren't equivalent to the actions themselves you can imagine that the themselves you can imagine that the themselves you can imagine that the words are surrounded by a cloud of words are surrounded by a cloud of words are surrounded by a cloud of images that they evoke and that the images that they evoke and that the images that they evoke and that the images can be translated into actions images can be translated into actions images can be translated into actions yeah and and the greatest writing uses yeah and and the greatest writing uses yeah and and the greatest writing uses words in a manner that evokes images words in a manner that evokes images words in a manner that evokes images that profoundly affects perception and that profoundly affects perception and that profoundly affects perception and action and that's the so I would take action and that's the so I would take action and that's the so I would take the manner in which I act and behave I the manner in which I act and behave I the manner in which I act and behave I would translate that into a set of would translate that into a set of would translate that into a set of images my dreams do that for me for images my dreams do that for me for images my dreams do that for me for example then I compress them into words example then I compress them into words example then I compress them into words I toss you the words you decompose them I toss you the words you decompose them I toss you the words you decompose them decompress them into the images and then decompress them into the images and then decompress them into the images and then into the actions and that's what happens into the actions and that's what happens into the actions and that's what happens in a meaningful conversation it's a very in a meaningful conversation it's a very in a meaningful conversation it's a very good way of understanding how we good way of understanding how we good way of understanding how we communicate linguistically so if the communicate linguistically so if the communicate linguistically so if the words spring to the visual full visual words spring to the visual full visual words spring to the visual full visual complexity and then that can then complexity and then that can then complexity and then that can then transform itself into action that's and transform itself into action that's and transform itself into action that's and change in perception and because per change in perception and because per change in perception and because per well those are both relevant and it's an well those are both relevant and it's an well those are both relevant and it's an important thing to understand because

important thing to understand because important thing to understand because the classic empiricists make the the classic empiricists make the the classic empiricists make the presumption and it's an erroneous presumption and it's an erroneous presumption and it's an erroneous presumption presumption presumption that perception is a value-free that perception is a value-free that perception is a value-free Enterprise and they assume that partly Enterprise and they assume that partly Enterprise and they assume that partly because they think of perception as because they think of perception as because they think of perception as something passive you know you just turn something passive you know you just turn something passive you know you just turn your head and you look at the world and your head and you look at the world and your head and you look at the world and there it is it's like perception is not there it is it's like perception is not there it is it's like perception is not passive there is no perception without passive there is no perception without passive there is no perception without action ever ever and that's a weird action ever ever and that's a weird action ever ever and that's a weird thing to understand because even when thing to understand because even when thing to understand because even when you're looking at something like your you're looking at something like your you're looking at something like your eyes are moving back and forth if they eyes are moving back and forth if they eyes are moving back and forth if they ever stop moving for a tenth of a second ever stop moving for a tenth of a second ever stop moving for a tenth of a second you stop being able to see so your eyes you stop being able to see so your eyes you stop being able to see so your eyes are jiggling back and forth just to keep are jiggling back and forth just to keep are jiggling back and forth just to keep them active and then there's involuntary them active and then there's involuntary them active and then there's involuntary movements of your eyes and then there's movements of your eyes and then there's movements of your eyes and then there's voluntary movements of your eyes like voluntary movements of your eyes like voluntary movements of your eyes like what you're doing with your eyes is very what you're doing with your eyes is very what you're doing with your eyes is very much like what a blind person would do much like what a blind person would do much like what a blind person would do if they were feeling out the Contours of if they were feeling out the Contours of if they were feeling out the Contours of a object you're sampling and you're only a object you're sampling and you're only a object you're sampling and you're only sampling a small element of the space sampling a small element of the space sampling a small element of the space that's in front of you and the element that's in front of you and the element that's in front of you and the element that you choose to sample is dependent that you choose to sample is dependent that you choose to sample is dependent on your aims and your goals so it's on your aims and your goals so it's on your aims and your goals so it's value saturated and so all your value saturated and so all your value saturated and so all your perceptions are action predicated and perceptions are action predicated and perceptions are action predicated and partly what you're doing when you're partly what you're doing when you're partly what you're doing when you're communicating is therefore not only communicating is therefore not only communicating is therefore not only changing people's actions let's say but changing people's actions let's say but changing people's actions let's say but you're also changing the the strategy you're also changing the the strategy you're also changing the the strategy that they use to perceive and so you that they use to perceive and so you that they use to perceive and so you change the way the world reveals itself change the way the world reveals itself change the way the world reveals itself for them see this is why it's such a for them see this is why it's such a for them see this is why it's such a profound experience to read a profound experience to read a profound experience to read a particularly deep thinker because you particularly deep thinker because you particularly deep thinker because you could also think of your perceptions as could also think of your perceptions as could also think of your perceptions as the axioms of your thought that's a good the axioms of your thought that's a good the axioms of your thought that's a good way of thinking about it a perception is way of thinking about it a perception is way of thinking about it a perception is like a what would you say it's a thought like a what would you say it's a thought like a what would you say it's a thought that's so set in concrete that you now

that's so set in concrete that you now that's so set in concrete that you now see it rather than conceptualize it a a see it rather than conceptualize it a a see it rather than conceptualize it a a really profound thinker changes the way really profound thinker changes the way really profound thinker changes the way you perceive the world that's way deeper you perceive the world that's way deeper you perceive the world that's way deeper than just how you think about it or how than just how you think about it or how than just how you think about it or how you feel about it what about not just you feel about it what about not just you feel about it what about not just profound thinkers but thinkers that profound thinkers but thinkers that profound thinkers but thinkers that deliver a powerful idea for example deliver a powerful idea for example deliver a powerful idea for example utopian ideas of Marx or utopian utopian ideas of Marx or utopian utopian ideas of Marx or utopian ideas you could say dystopian ideas of ideas you could say dystopian ideas of ideas you could say dystopian ideas of Hitler those ideas are powerful and they Hitler those ideas are powerful and they Hitler those ideas are powerful and they can saturate all your perception with can saturate all your perception with can saturate all your perception with values and they they focus you in a way values and they they focus you in a way values and they they focus you in a way where there's only a certain set of where there's only a certain set of where there's only a certain set of actions yeah right even a certain set of actions yeah right even a certain set of actions yeah right even a certain set of emotions as well and it's intense and emotions as well and it's intense and emotions as well and it's intense and it's direct and they're so powerful that it's direct and they're so powerful that it's direct and they're so powerful that they completely alter the perception and they completely alter the perception and they completely alter the perception and the words bring to life yeah it's like a the words bring to life yeah it's like a the words bring to life yeah it's like a form of possession so there's two things form of possession so there's two things form of possession so there's two things you need to understand to make that you need to understand to make that you need to understand to make that clear the clear the clear the first issue is that as we suggested or first issue is that as we suggested or first issue is that as we suggested or implied that perception is action implied that perception is action implied that perception is action predicated but action is goal predicated predicated but action is goal predicated predicated but action is goal predicated right the act towards goal right the act towards goal right the act towards goal and these propagandistic thinkers that and these propagandistic thinkers that and these propagandistic thinkers that you described they attempt to unify all you described they attempt to unify all you described they attempt to unify all possible goals into a coherent possible goals into a coherent possible goals into a coherent Singularity and there's advantages of Singularity and there's advantages of Singularity and there's advantages of that there's advant the advantage of that there's advant the advantage of that there's advant the advantage of Simplicity for for example which is a Simplicity for for example which is a Simplicity for for example which is a major advantage and there's also the major advantage and there's also the major advantage and there's also the advantage of motivation right so if you advantage of motivation right so if you advantage of motivation right so if you provide people with a simp simple manner provide people with a simp simple manner provide people with a simp simple manner of integrating all their actions you

of integrating all their actions you of integrating all their actions you decrease their anxiety and you increase decrease their anxiety and you increase decrease their anxiety and you increase their motivation that can be a good their motivation that can be a good their motivation that can be a good thing if the unifying idea that you put thing if the unifying idea that you put thing if the unifying idea that you put forward is valid but it's the worst of forward is valid but it's the worst of forward is valid but it's the worst of all possible ideas if you put forward an all possible ideas if you put forward an all possible ideas if you put forward an invalid unifying idea and then you might invalid unifying idea and then you might invalid unifying idea and then you might say well how do you distinguish between say well how do you distinguish between say well how do you distinguish between a valid unifying idea and an invalid a valid unifying idea and an invalid a valid unifying idea and an invalid unifying idea now was very interested in unifying idea now was very interested in unifying idea now was very interested in that and I don't think he got that that and I don't think he got that that and I don't think he got that exactly right but the postmodernists for exactly right but the postmodernists for exactly right but the postmodernists for example especially the ones and this is example especially the ones and this is example especially the ones and this is most of them with the Neo Marxist bent most of them with the Neo Marxist bent most of them with the Neo Marxist bent their presumption is that the their presumption is that the their presumption is that the fundamental unifying idea is power that fundamental unifying idea is power that fundamental unifying idea is power that everything's about compulsion and force everything's about compulsion and force everything's about compulsion and force essentially and that that's the only essentially and that that's the only essentially and that that's the only true unifying ethos of mankind which is true unifying ethos of mankind which is true unifying ethos of mankind which is I don't know if there's a worse idea I don't know if there's a worse idea I don't know if there's a worse idea than that I mean there there are ideas than that I mean there there are ideas than that I mean there there are ideas that are potentially as dangerous the that are potentially as dangerous the that are potentially as dangerous the nihilistic idea is pretty dangerous nihilistic idea is pretty dangerous nihilistic idea is pretty dangerous although it's more of a disintegrating although it's more of a disintegrating although it's more of a disintegrating notion than a unifying idea the notion than a unifying idea the notion than a unifying idea the hedonistic idea that you live for hedonistic idea that you live for hedonistic idea that you live for pleasure for example that's also very pleasure for example that's also very pleasure for example that's also very dangerous but if you wanted to go for dangerous but if you wanted to go for dangerous but if you wanted to go for sheer pathology the notion that and this sheer pathology the notion that and this sheer pathology the notion that and this is Fuko and a nutshell and marks for is Fuko and a nutshell and marks for is Fuko and a nutshell and marks for that matter that power rules everything that matter that power rules everything that matter that power rules everything not only is that a terrible unifying not only is that a terrible unifying not only is that a terrible unifying idea but it it fully justifies your own idea but it it fully justifies your own idea but it it fully justifies your own use of power and and I don't mean the use of power and and I don't mean the use of power and and I don't mean the power nche talks about his will to power power nche talks about his will to power power nche talks about his will to power was more his insistence that a human was more his insistence that a human was more his insistence that a human being is an expression of will rather being is an expression of will rather being is an expression of will rather than a mechanism of self- protection and than a mechanism of self- protection and than a mechanism of self- protection and security like he thought of the life

security like he thought of the life security like he thought of the life force in human beings as something that force in human beings as something that force in human beings as something that strived not to protect itself but to strived not to protect itself but to strived not to protect itself but to exhaust itself in being and becoming exhaust itself in being and becoming exhaust itself in being and becoming it's it's like a it's like an upward it's it's like a it's like an upward it's it's like a it's like an upward oriented motivational Drive even towards oriented motivational Drive even towards oriented motivational Drive even towards meaning now he called it the will to meaning now he called it the will to meaning now he called it the will to power and that had some unfortunate power and that had some unfortunate power and that had some unfortunate consequences at least that's how it's consequences at least that's how it's consequences at least that's how it's translated but he didn't mean the power translated but he didn't mean the power translated but he didn't mean the power motivation that people like fuku or Marx motivation that people like fuku or Marx motivation that people like fuku or Marx was became so hung up on so it's not was became so hung up on so it's not was became so hung up on so it's not power like you're trying to destroy the power like you're trying to destroy the power like you're trying to destroy the other it's Power full flourishing of a other it's Power full flourishing of a other it's Power full flourishing of a human being the creative force of a human being the creative force of a human being the creative force of a human being that well you could imagine human being that well you could imagine human being that well you could imagine that and and you should you could that and and you should you could that and and you should you could imagine that you could segregate imagine that you could segregate imagine that you could segregate competence and ability like imagine that competence and ability like imagine that competence and ability like imagine that you and I were going to work on a you and I were going to work on a you and I were going to work on a project we could organize our project in project we could organize our project in project we could organize our project in relationship to the ambition that we relationship to the ambition that we relationship to the ambition that we wanted to attain and we can organize an wanted to attain and we can organize an wanted to attain and we can organize an agreement so that you were committed to agreement so that you were committed to agreement so that you were committed to the project voluntarily and so that I the project voluntarily and so that I the project voluntarily and so that I was committed to the project voluntarily was committed to the project voluntarily was committed to the project voluntarily so that means that we would actually be so that means that we would actually be so that means that we would actually be United in our perceptions and our United in our perceptions and our United in our perceptions and our actions by the motivation of something actions by the motivation of something actions by the motivation of something approximating voluntary play now you approximating voluntary play now you approximating voluntary play now you could also imagine another situation could also imagine another situation could also imagine another situation where I said here's our goal and uh you where I said here's our goal and uh you where I said here's our goal and uh you better help me or I'm going to kill your better help me or I'm going to kill your better help me or I'm going to kill your family well the probability is that you family well the probability is that you family well the probability is that you would would would be quite motivated to undertake my be quite motivated to undertake my be quite motivated to undertake my bidding and so then you might say well bidding and so then you might say well bidding and so then you might say well that's how the world works it's power that's how the world works it's power that's how the world works it's power and compulsion but the truth of the and compulsion but the truth of the and compulsion but the truth of the matter is that you can force people to

matter is that you can force people to matter is that you can force people to see things your way let's say but it's see things your way let's say but it's see things your way let's say but it's nowhere near as good a strategy even nowhere near as good a strategy even nowhere near as good a strategy even practically than the strategy of that practically than the strategy of that practically than the strategy of that would be associated with something like would be associated with something like would be associated with something like voluntary voluntary voluntary voluntary voluntary voluntary joint agreement of pattern of movement joint agreement of pattern of movement joint agreement of pattern of movement strategy towards a goal see this is such strategy towards a goal see this is such strategy towards a goal see this is such an important thing to understand because an important thing to understand because an important thing to understand because it it helps you start to understand the it it helps you start to understand the it it helps you start to understand the distinction between a unifying force distinction between a unifying force distinction between a unifying force that's based on Power and compulsion and that's based on Power and compulsion and that's based on Power and compulsion and one that is much more in keeping I would one that is much more in keeping I would one that is much more in keeping I would say with the ethos that governs western say with the ethos that governs western say with the ethos that governs western western societies free western societies western societies free western societies western societies free western societies there's really a qualitative difference there's really a qualitative difference there's really a qualitative difference and it's not some morally relativistic and it's not some morally relativistic and it's not some morally relativistic illusion so if we just look at the illusion so if we just look at the illusion so if we just look at the Nuance of n's thought Nuance of n's thought Nuance of n's thought uh the idea he first introduced And Thus uh the idea he first introduced And Thus uh the idea he first introduced And Thus Spoke zaratustra of the Uber mench yeah Spoke zaratustra of the Uber mench yeah Spoke zaratustra of the Uber mench yeah that's another one that's very easy to that's another one that's very easy to that's another one that's very easy to misinterpret because it sounds awfully a misinterpret because it sounds awfully a misinterpret because it sounds awfully a lot like it's about power yeah right for lot like it's about power yeah right for lot like it's about power yeah right for example in the 20th century it was mis example in the 20th century it was mis example in the 20th century it was mis represented and co-opted by Hitler to represented and co-opted by Hitler to represented and co-opted by Hitler to advocate for the uh extermination of the advocate for the uh extermination of the advocate for the uh extermination of the inferior non- Arian races yeah and the inferior non- Arian races yeah and the inferior non- Arian races yeah and the Dominion of the superior Aryans yeah and Dominion of the superior Aryans yeah and Dominion of the superior Aryans yeah and yeah well that was partly because n's yeah well that was partly because n's yeah well that was partly because n's work also was misrepresented by his work also was misrepresented by his work also was misrepresented by his sister after his death but definit but I sister after his death but definit but I sister after his death but definit but I also think that there's a fundamental also think that there's a fundamental also think that there's a fundamental flaw in that Nichi and flaw in that Nichi and flaw in that Nichi and conceptualization so n of course conceptualization so n of course conceptualization so n of course famously announced the death of God but famously announced the death of God but famously announced the death of God but he did that in a manner that was

he did that in a manner that was he did that in a manner that was accompanied by Dire warnings like nich accompanied by Dire warnings like nich accompanied by Dire warnings like nich said because people tend to think of said because people tend to think of said because people tend to think of that as a triumphalist statement but n that as a triumphalist statement but n that as a triumphalist statement but n actually said actually said actually said that he really said something like the that he really said something like the that he really said something like the unifying ethos under which we've unifying ethos under which we've unifying ethos under which we've organized ourselves psychologically and organized ourselves psychologically and organized ourselves psychologically and socially has now been fatally undermined socially has now been fatally undermined socially has now been fatally undermined by well by the rationalist proclivity by by well by the rationalist proclivity by by well by the rationalist proclivity by the empir empiricist proclivity there's the empir empiricist proclivity there's the empir empiricist proclivity there's a variety of reasons mostly it was a variety of reasons mostly it was a variety of reasons mostly it was conflict between the enlightenment view conflict between the enlightenment view conflict between the enlightenment view let's say in the classic religious View let's say in the classic religious View let's say in the classic religious View and and that there will be dire and and that there will be dire and and that there will be dire consequences for that and N knew like consequences for that and N knew like consequences for that and N knew like dovi knew that see there's a proclivity dovi knew that see there's a proclivity dovi knew that see there's a proclivity for the human psyche and for human for the human psyche and for human for the human psyche and for human societies to move towards something societies to move towards something societies to move towards something approximating a Unity because the cost approximating a Unity because the cost approximating a Unity because the cost of disunity is high fractionation of of disunity is high fractionation of of disunity is high fractionation of your goals so that means you're less your goals so that means you're less your goals so that means you're less motivated to move forward than you might motivated to move forward than you might motivated to move forward than you might be because there's many things competing be because there's many things competing be because there's many things competing for your attention and also anxiety for your attention and also anxiety for your attention and also anxiety because anxiety actually signals because anxiety actually signals because anxiety actually signals something like goal conflict so there's something like goal conflict so there's something like goal conflict so there's an inescapable proclivity of value an inescapable proclivity of value an inescapable proclivity of value systems to unite now if you kill the systems to unite now if you kill the systems to unite now if you kill the thing that's uniting them that's the thing that's uniting them that's the thing that's uniting them that's the death of God they either fractionate and death of God they either fractionate and death of God they either fractionate and you get confusion anxiety and you get confusion anxiety and you get confusion anxiety and hopelessness hopelessness hopelessness or you get social disunity or and you or you get social disunity or and you or you get social disunity or and you get social disunity get social disunity get social disunity or something else arises out of the or something else arises out of the or something else arises out of the Abyss to constitute that unifying force Abyss to constitute that unifying force Abyss to constitute that unifying force and N said specifically that he believe

and N said specifically that he believe and N said specifically that he believe that one of those manifestations would that one of those manifestations would that one of those manifestations would be that of um communism and that that be that of um communism and that that be that of um communism and that that would kill he said this in Will To Power would kill he said this in Will To Power would kill he said this in Will To Power that that would kill tens of millions of that that would kill tens of millions of that that would kill tens of millions of people in the upcoming 20th century I people in the upcoming 20th century I people in the upcoming 20th century I keep he keep he keep he he could see that coming 5050 years he could see that coming 5050 years he could see that coming 5050 years earlier and dovi did the same thing in earlier and dovi did the same thing in earlier and dovi did the same thing in his book the demons so this is the thing his book the demons so this is the thing his book the demons so this is the thing that the a religious have to contend that the a religious have to contend that the a religious have to contend with it's a real conundrum because I with it's a real conundrum because I with it's a real conundrum because I mean you could dispute the idea that our mean you could dispute the idea that our mean you could dispute the idea that our value systems tend towards a unity and value systems tend towards a unity and value systems tend towards a unity and and and Society does as well because and and Society does as well because and and Society does as well because otherwise we're disunified but the cost otherwise we're disunified but the cost otherwise we're disunified but the cost of that disunity as I said is goal of that disunity as I said is goal of that disunity as I said is goal confusion anxiety and hopelessness so confusion anxiety and hopelessness so confusion anxiety and hopelessness so it's like a real cost so you could it's like a real cost so you could it's like a real cost so you could dispense with the notion of unity dispense with the notion of unity dispense with the notion of unity altogether and the postmodernists did altogether and the postmodernists did altogether and the postmodernists did that to some degree but they pulled off that to some degree but they pulled off that to some degree but they pulled off a slight of hand too where they replaced a slight of hand too where they replaced a slight of hand too where they replaced it by power now n did he's responsible it by power now n did he's responsible it by power now n did he's responsible for that to some degree because n said for that to some degree because n said for that to some degree because n said with his conception of the Overman let's with his conception of the Overman let's with his conception of the Overman let's say is that human beings would have to say is that human beings would have to say is that human beings would have to create their own values because the create their own values because the create their own values because the value structure that had descended from value structure that had descended from value structure that had descended from on high was now shunted aside but on high was now shunted aside but on high was now shunted aside but there's a major problem with that many there's a major problem with that many there's a major problem with that many major problems the psychoanalysts were major problems the psychoanalysts were major problems the psychoanalysts were the first people who really figured this the first people who really figured this the first people who really figured this out after n because imagine that we out after n because imagine that we out after n because imagine that we don't have don't have don't have a relationship with the transcendental a relationship with the transcendental a relationship with the transcendental anymore that orients us okay now we have anymore that orients us okay now we have anymore that orients us okay now we have to turn to to turn to to turn to ourselves okay now if we were a Unity a ourselves okay now if we were a Unity a ourselves okay now if we were a Unity a clear Unity within ourselves let's say

clear Unity within ourselves let's say clear Unity within ourselves let's say then we could turn to ourselves for that then we could turn to ourselves for that then we could turn to ourselves for that Discovery but if we're a fractionated Discovery but if we're a fractionated Discovery but if we're a fractionated plurality internally then when we turn plurality internally then when we turn plurality internally then when we turn to ourselves we have we turn to a to ourselves we have we turn to a to ourselves we have we turn to a fractionated plurality well that was fractionated plurality well that was fractionated plurality well that was Freud's observation it's like well how Freud's observation it's like well how Freud's observation it's like well how can you make your own values when you're can you make your own values when you're can you make your own values when you're not the master in your own house like not the master in your own house like not the master in your own house like you're a war of competing motivations or you're a war of competing motivations or you're a war of competing motivations or maybe you're someone who's dominated by maybe you're someone who's dominated by maybe you're someone who's dominated by the will to force and compulsion and so the will to force and compulsion and so the will to force and compulsion and so why do you think that you can rely on why do you think that you can rely on why do you think that you can rely on yourself as the source of values and why yourself as the source of values and why yourself as the source of values and why do you think you're wise enough to to do you think you're wise enough to to do you think you're wise enough to to consult with yourself to find out what consult with yourself to find out what consult with yourself to find out what those values are or what they should be those values are or what they should be those values are or what they should be say in the course of a single life I say in the course of a single life I say in the course of a single life I mean you know it's it's difficult to mean you know it's it's difficult to mean you know it's it's difficult to organize your own personal relationship organize your own personal relationship organize your own personal relationship ship like one relationship in the course ship like one relationship in the course ship like one relationship in the course of your life let alone to try to imagine of your life let alone to try to imagine of your life let alone to try to imagine that out of whole cloth you could that out of whole cloth you could that out of whole cloth you could construct an ethos that would be construct an ethos that would be construct an ethos that would be psychologically and socially stabilizing psychologically and socially stabilizing psychologically and socially stabilizing and last over the long run it's like and and last over the long run it's like and and last over the long run it's like and of course Marx people like that the the of course Marx people like that the the of course Marx people like that the the the people who reduce human motivation the people who reduce human motivation the people who reduce human motivation to a single axis they had the to a single axis they had the to a single axis they had the intellectual hubus to imagine that they intellectual hubus to imagine that they intellectual hubus to imagine that they could do that postmodernists are a good could do that postmodernists are a good could do that postmodernists are a good example of that as well okay but if we example of that as well okay but if we example of that as well okay but if we lay on the table religion lay on the table religion lay on the table religion uh communism uh communism uh communism Nazism they are all unifying Nazism they are all unifying Nazism they are all unifying ethos they're unifying ideas but they're ethos they're unifying ideas but they're ethos they're unifying ideas but they're also horribly dividing ideas they both also horribly dividing ideas they both also horribly dividing ideas they both unify and divide unify and divide unify and divide religion has also divided people yeah religion has also divided people yeah religion has also divided people yeah because in the nuances of

because in the nuances of because in the nuances of how uh the different peoples wrestle how uh the different peoples wrestle how uh the different peoples wrestle with God they have come to different with God they have come to different with God they have come to different conclusions and then they use those conclusions and then they use those conclusions and then they use those conclusions or perhaps the people in conclusions or perhaps the people in conclusions or perhaps the people in power use those conclusions to then power use those conclusions to then power use those conclusions to then start wars to start hatred to divide start wars to start hatred to divide start wars to start hatred to divide yeah well it's one of the key sub themes yeah well it's one of the key sub themes yeah well it's one of the key sub themes in the gospels is the sub theme of uh in the gospels is the sub theme of uh in the gospels is the sub theme of uh the Pharisees and so the the fundamental the Pharisees and so the the fundamental the Pharisees and so the the fundamental enemies of Christ in the gospels are the enemies of Christ in the gospels are the enemies of Christ in the gospels are the Pharisees and the scribes and the Pharisees and the scribes and the Pharisees and the scribes and the lawyers so what does that mean the lawyers so what does that mean the lawyers so what does that mean the Pharisees are religious Pharisees are religious Pharisees are religious Hypocrites the scribes are academics who Hypocrites the scribes are academics who Hypocrites the scribes are academics who worship their own intellect and the worship their own intellect and the worship their own intellect and the lawyers are the legal Minds who use the lawyers are the legal Minds who use the lawyers are the legal Minds who use the law as a weapon and so they're the enemy law as a weapon and so they're the enemy law as a weapon and so they're the enemy of the Redeemer that's the pl that's a of the Redeemer that's the pl that's a of the Redeemer that's the pl that's a subplot in in in the gospel stories and subplot in in in the gospel stories and subplot in in in the gospel stories and that actually all means something the that actually all means something the that actually all means something the phic problem is that the best of all phic problem is that the best of all phic problem is that the best of all possible ideas can be used by the worst possible ideas can be used by the worst possible ideas can be used by the worst actors in the worst possible way and actors in the worst possible way and actors in the worst possible way and maybe this is an existential conundrum maybe this is an existential conundrum maybe this is an existential conundrum is that the most evil people use the is that the most evil people use the is that the most evil people use the best possible ideas to the worst best possible ideas to the worst best possible ideas to the worst possible ends and then you have the possible ends and then you have the possible ends and then you have the conundrum of how do you separate out conundrum of how do you separate out conundrum of how do you separate out let's say the genuine religious people let's say the genuine religious people let's say the genuine religious people from those who use the religious from those who use the religious from those who use the religious Enterprise only for their own Enterprise only for their own Enterprise only for their own machinations we're seeing this happen machinations we're seeing this happen machinations we're seeing this happen online like one of the things that online like one of the things that online like one of the things that you're seeing happening online I'm sure you're seeing happening online I'm sure you're seeing happening online I'm sure you've noticed this especially on the you've noticed this especially on the you've noticed this especially on the right-wing troll right-wing Psychopathic right-wing troll right-wing Psychopathic right-wing troll right-wing Psychopathic troll side of the distribution is the

troll side of the distribution is the troll side of the distribution is the weaponization of a certain form of weaponization of a certain form of weaponization of a certain form of Christian idation and that's often Christian idation and that's often Christian idation and that's often marked at least online by the presence marked at least online by the presence marked at least online by the presence of what would you say cliches like of what would you say cliches like of what would you say cliches like Christ is King which has a certain Christ is King which has a certain Christ is King which has a certain religious meaning but a completely religious meaning but a completely religious meaning but a completely different meaning in this sphere of different meaning in this sphere of different meaning in this sphere of emerging right-wing pathology right-wing emerging right-wing pathology right-wing emerging right-wing pathology right-wing the political Dimension isn't the right the political Dimension isn't the right the political Dimension isn't the right dimension of analysis but it's dimension of analysis but it's dimension of analysis but it's definitely the case that the best definitely the case that the best definitely the case that the best possible ideas can be used for the worst possible ideas can be used for the worst possible ideas can be used for the worst possible purposes and that also brings possible purposes and that also brings possible purposes and that also brings up another Spectre which is like well is up another Spectre which is like well is up another Spectre which is like well is there any reliable and valid way of there any reliable and valid way of there any reliable and valid way of distinguishing truly beneficial unifying distinguishing truly beneficial unifying distinguishing truly beneficial unifying ideas from those that are pathological ideas from those that are pathological ideas from those that are pathological and so that's another thing that I tried and so that's another thing that I tried and so that's another thing that I tried to detail out in these lectures but also to detail out in these lectures but also to detail out in these lectures but also in this new book it's like how do you in this new book it's like how do you in this new book it's like how do you tell the good actors from The Bad actors tell the good actors from The Bad actors tell the good actors from The Bad actors at the most fundamental level of at the most fundamental level of at the most fundamental level of analysis and good ideas from the bad analysis and good ideas from the bad analysis and good ideas from the bad ideas and you lecture on Truth they need ideas and you lecture on Truth they need ideas and you lecture on Truth they need you also struggled with so how do you you also struggled with so how do you you also struggled with so how do you know how do you know that communism is a know how do you know that communism is a know how do you know that communism is a bad bad bad idea versus it's a good idea implemented idea versus it's a good idea implemented idea versus it's a good idea implemented by Bad by Bad by Bad actors right right that's a more subtle actors right right that's a more subtle actors right right that's a more subtle variant of the religious problem that's variant of the religious problem that's variant of the religious problem that's what the that's what the Communists say what the that's what the Communists say what the that's what the Communists say all the time the modern day Communists all the time the modern day Communists all the time the modern day Communists like real communism has never been tried like real communism has never been tried like real communism has never been tried and you could say I suppose with some and you could say I suppose with some and you could say I suppose with some justification you could say that real justification you could say that real justification you could say that real Christianity has never been tried Christianity has never been tried Christianity has never been tried because we always fall short of the because we always fall short of the because we always fall short of the ideal Mark and ideal Mark and ideal Mark and so I mean my rejoinder to the Communists

so I mean my rejoinder to the Communists so I mean my rejoinder to the Communists is something like every single time it's is something like every single time it's is something like every single time it's been implemented wherever it's been been implemented wherever it's been been implemented wherever it's been implemented regardless of the culture implemented regardless of the culture implemented regardless of the culture and the background of the people who've and the background of the people who've and the background of the people who've implemented it it's had exactly the same implemented it it's had exactly the same implemented it it's had exactly the same catastrophic consequences it's like I catastrophic consequences it's like I catastrophic consequences it's like I don't know how don't know how don't know how many examples you need of that but I many examples you need of that but I many examples you need of that but I believe we've generated sufficient believe we've generated sufficient believe we've generated sufficient examples so that that case is basically examples so that that case is basically examples so that that case is basically resolved now the general rejoinder to resolved now the general rejoinder to resolved now the general rejoinder to that is it's really something like well that is it's really something like well that is it's really something like well if I was in charge of the Communist if I was in charge of the Communist if I was in charge of the Communist Enterprise the Utopia would have come Enterprise the Utopia would have come Enterprise the Utopia would have come about right but that's also a form of about right but that's also a form of about right but that's also a form of dangerous pretense part of the way see dangerous pretense part of the way see dangerous pretense part of the way see that problem is actually resolved to that problem is actually resolved to that problem is actually resolved to some degree in the notion of in the some degree in the notion of in the some degree in the notion of in the developing notion of sacrifice that developing notion of sacrifice that developing notion of sacrifice that emerges in the western Canon over emerges in the western Canon over emerges in the western Canon over thousands and thousands of years so one thousands and thousands of years so one thousands and thousands of years so one of the suggestions for example and this of the suggestions for example and this of the suggestions for example and this is something exemplified in the passion is something exemplified in the passion is something exemplified in the passion story is that you can tell the valid story is that you can tell the valid story is that you can tell the valid holder of an idea because that Holder holder of an idea because that Holder holder of an idea because that Holder will take the responsibility for the will take the responsibility for the will take the responsibility for the consequences of his idea onto consequences of his idea onto consequences of his idea onto himself and that's why for example you himself and that's why for example you himself and that's why for example you see one way of conceptualizing Christ in see one way of conceptualizing Christ in see one way of conceptualizing Christ in the gospel story is as the ultimate the gospel story is as the ultimate the gospel story is as the ultimate sacrifice to God so you might ask well sacrifice to God so you might ask well sacrifice to God so you might ask well what's the ultimate sacrifice and there what's the ultimate sacrifice and there what's the ultimate sacrifice and there there are variants of answer to that one there are variants of answer to that one there are variants of answer to that one form of ultimate sacrifice is the form of ultimate sacrifice is the form of ultimate sacrifice is the sacrifice of a child the offering of a sacrifice of a child the offering of a sacrifice of a child the offering of a child and the other is the offering of child and the other is the offering of child and the other is the offering of the self and the story of Christ brings the self and the story of Christ brings the self and the story of Christ brings both of those together because he's the

both of those together because he's the both of those together because he's the son of God that's offered to God and so son of God that's offered to God and so son of God that's offered to God and so it's a archetypal resolution of that it's a archetypal resolution of that it's a archetypal resolution of that tension between ultimate sacrifice tension between ultimate sacrifice tension between ultimate sacrifice ultimate because once you're a ultimate because once you're a ultimate because once you're a parent most parents would rather parent most parents would rather parent most parents would rather sacrifice themselves than their children sacrifice themselves than their children sacrifice themselves than their children right so you have something that becomes right so you have something that becomes right so you have something that becomes of even more value than yourself but the of even more value than yourself but the of even more value than yourself but the sacrifice of self is also a very high sacrifice of self is also a very high sacrifice of self is also a very high order level of sacrifice Christ is an order level of sacrifice Christ is an order level of sacrifice Christ is an archetype of the pattern of being that's archetype of the pattern of being that's archetype of the pattern of being that's predicated on the decision to take to predicated on the decision to take to predicated on the decision to take to offer everything up to the highest value offer everything up to the highest value offer everything up to the highest value right that pattern of right that pattern of right that pattern of self-sacrifice and I think part of the self-sacrifice and I think part of the self-sacrifice and I think part of the reason that's valid is reason that's valid is reason that's valid is because the person who undertakes to do because the person who undertakes to do because the person who undertakes to do that pays the price thems it's not that pays the price thems it's not that pays the price thems it's not externalized they're not trying to externalized they're not trying to externalized they're not trying to change anyone else except maybe by change anyone else except maybe by change anyone else except maybe by example it's your problem that like soja example it's your problem that like soja example it's your problem that like soja niton pointed that out too um when he niton pointed that out too um when he niton pointed that out too um when he was struggling with the idea of good was struggling with the idea of good was struggling with the idea of good versus evil and and you see this in more versus evil and and you see this in more versus evil and and you see this in more sophisticated literature you know in sophisticated literature you know in sophisticated literature you know in really unsophisticated literature or really unsophisticated literature or really unsophisticated literature or drama there's a good guy and the bad guy drama there's a good guy and the bad guy drama there's a good guy and the bad guy and the good guy guys all good and the and the good guy guys all good and the and the good guy guys all good and the bad guys all bad and in more bad guys all bad and in more bad guys all bad and in more sophisticated sophisticated sophisticated literature the good and bad are literature the good and bad are literature the good and bad are abstracted you can think of them as abstracted you can think of them as abstracted you can think of them as spirits and then those Spirits possess spirits and then those Spirits possess spirits and then those Spirits possess all the characters in The Complex drama all the characters in The Complex drama all the characters in The Complex drama to a late greater or lesser degree and to a late greater or lesser degree and to a late greater or lesser degree and that battle is fought out both socially

that battle is fought out both socially that battle is fought out both socially and internally in the high order and internally in the high order and internally in the high order religious religious religious conceptualizations in the west if they conceptualizations in the west if they conceptualizations in the west if they culminate let's in the Christian Story culminate let's in the Christian Story culminate let's in the Christian Story the notion is that battle between good the notion is that battle between good the notion is that battle between good and evil is fundamentally played out as and evil is fundamentally played out as and evil is fundamentally played out as an internal drama yeah so the uh for a an internal drama yeah so the uh for a an internal drama yeah so the uh for a religious ethos the battle between good religious ethos the battle between good religious ethos the battle between good and evil is fought within each and evil is fought within each and evil is fought within each individual human heart right it's your individual human heart right it's your individual human heart right it's your moral duty to constrain it to constrain moral duty to constrain it to constrain moral duty to constrain it to constrain evil within yourself and well there's evil within yourself and well there's evil within yourself and well there's more to it than that because there's more to it than that because there's more to it than that because there's also the insistence also the insistence also the insistence that if you do that that makes you the that if you do that that makes you the that if you do that that makes you the more most effective possible more most effective possible more most effective possible like Warrior let's say against evil like Warrior let's say against evil like Warrior let's say against evil itself in the social world that you itself in the social world that you itself in the social world that you start with the battle that occurs within start with the battle that occurs within start with the battle that occurs within you in the soul let's say the soul you in the soul let's say the soul you in the soul let's say the soul becomes the Battleground between the becomes the Battleground between the becomes the Battleground between the forces of Good and Evil the idea there forces of Good and Evil the idea there forces of Good and Evil the idea there there's an idea there too which is if there's an idea there too which is if there's an idea there too which is if that battle is undertaken successfully that battle is undertaken successfully that battle is undertaken successfully then it doesn't have to be played out in then it doesn't have to be played out in then it doesn't have to be played out in the social world as actual conflict the social world as actual conflict the social world as actual conflict right you can rectify the conflict right you can rectify the conflict right you can rectify the conflict internally without it having to be internally without it having to be internally without it having to be played out as fate as young put it so played out as fate as young put it so played out as fate as young put it so what would you say to n who called what would you say to n who called what would you say to n who called Christianity the slave Christianity the slave Christianity the slave morality and his critique of religion in morality and his critique of religion in morality and his critique of religion in that way was slave morality versus that way was slave morality versus that way was slave morality versus Master morality and then you put in Uber Master morality and then you put in Uber Master morality and then you put in Uber into that well that's that see I would into that well that's that see I would into that well that's that see I would say that the woke phenomenon is the say that the woke phenomenon is the say that the woke phenomenon is the manifestation of the slave morality that manifestation of the slave morality that manifestation of the slave morality that n criticized and

n criticized and n criticized and that there are there are elements of that there are there are elements of that there are there are elements of Christianity that can be Gerry banded to Christianity that can be Gerry banded to Christianity that can be Gerry banded to support support support that mod of perception and conception that mod of perception and conception that mod of perception and conception but I think he was wrong in he was wrong but I think he was wrong in he was wrong but I think he was wrong in he was wrong in his essential criticism of in his essential criticism of in his essential criticism of Christianity in that regard now it's Christianity in that regard now it's Christianity in that regard now it's complicated with nche because nche never complicated with nche because nche never complicated with nche because nche never criticizes the gospel stories directly criticizes the gospel stories directly criticizes the gospel stories directly what he basically criticizes is what he basically criticizes is what he basically criticizes is something like the pathologies of something like the pathologies of something like the pathologies of institutionalized religion and I would institutionalized religion and I would institutionalized religion and I would say most particularly of say most particularly of say most particularly of the what would you say the what would you say the what would you say of the sort of casually too nice of the sort of casually too nice of the sort of casually too nice Protestant form you know that's a a Protestant form you know that's a a Protestant form you know that's a a thumbnail sketch and perhaps somewhat thumbnail sketch and perhaps somewhat thumbnail sketch and perhaps somewhat unfair unfair unfair but given the alignment let's say of the but given the alignment let's say of the but given the alignment let's say of the more mainstream po Protestant movements more mainstream po Protestant movements more mainstream po Protestant movements with the woke mob I don't think it's an with the woke mob I don't think it's an with the woke mob I don't think it's an absurd criticism it's something like the absurd criticism it's something like the absurd criticism it's something like the degeneration of Christianity into the degeneration of Christianity into the degeneration of Christianity into the notion notion notion that good and harmless are the same that good and harmless are the same that good and harmless are the same thing or good and empathic are the same thing or good and empathic are the same thing or good and empathic are the same thing thing which is simply not true and thing thing which is simply not true and thing thing which is simply not true and and far too simplified and so and I also and far too simplified and so and I also and far too simplified and so and I also think n was extremely wrong in his think n was extremely wrong in his think n was extremely wrong in his presumption that human beings should presumption that human beings should presumption that human beings should take it to themselves to construct their take it to themselves to construct their take it to themselves to construct their own values I I think he made a colossal own values I I think he made a colossal own values I I think he made a colossal error in that presumption and that is error in that presumption and that is error in that presumption and that is the idea of uber match that the great the idea of uber match that the great the idea of uber match that the great individual the best of us yeah should individual the best of us yeah should individual the best of us yeah should create our own values well and I I think create our own values well and I I think create our own values well and I I think the reason that he was wrong about that

the reason that he was wrong about that the reason that he was wrong about that is that so when God gives instructions is that so when God gives instructions is that so when God gives instructions to Adam and Eve in the garden of Eve he to Adam and Eve in the garden of Eve he to Adam and Eve in the garden of Eve he basically tells them that they can do basically tells them that they can do basically tells them that they can do anything they want in the wall Garden so anything they want in the wall Garden so anything they want in the wall Garden so that's the kind of balance between order that's the kind of balance between order that's the kind of balance between order and nature that makes up the human and nature that makes up the human and nature that makes up the human environment human beings have the environment human beings have the environment human beings have the freedom vouch safe to them by God to do freedom vouch safe to them by God to do freedom vouch safe to them by God to do anything they want in the garden except anything they want in the garden except anything they want in the garden except to mess with the most fundamental rule to mess with the most fundamental rule to mess with the most fundamental rule so God says to people you're not to eat so God says to people you're not to eat so God says to people you're not to eat of the fruit of the tree of the of the fruit of the tree of the of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil which knowledge of Good and Evil which knowledge of Good and Evil which fundamentally means there is an implicit fundamentally means there is an implicit fundamentally means there is an implicit moral order and you're to abide by it moral order and you're to abide by it moral order and you're to abide by it you're Freedom stops at the foundation you're Freedom stops at the foundation you're Freedom stops at the foundation and you can think about that I'd be and you can think about that I'd be and you can think about that I'd be interested even in your ideas about this interested even in your ideas about this interested even in your ideas about this as an engineer let's say is as an engineer let's say is as an engineer let's say is that there is an ethos that's implicit that there is an ethos that's implicit that there is an ethos that's implicit in being in being in being itself and your ethos has to be a itself and your ethos has to be a itself and your ethos has to be a reflection of that and that isn't under reflection of that and that isn't under reflection of that and that isn't under your control you can't gerrymander the your control you can't gerrymander the your control you can't gerrymander the foundation foundation foundation because the your foundational beliefs because the your foundational beliefs because the your foundational beliefs have to put you in harmony like musical have to put you in harmony like musical have to put you in harmony like musical harmony with the actual structure harmony with the actual structure harmony with the actual structure structure of reality as such so I can structure of reality as such so I can structure of reality as such so I can give you an example of that give you an example of that give you an example of that so our goal in so far as we're so our goal in so far as we're so our goal in so far as we're conducting ourselves properly is to have conducting ourselves properly is to have conducting ourselves properly is to have the kind of interestes in conversation the kind of interestes in conversation the kind of interestes in conversation that allows both of us to express oursel that allows both of us to express oursel that allows both of us to express oursel in a manner that enables us to learn and in a manner that enables us to learn and in a manner that enables us to learn and grow such that we can share that with grow such that we can share that with grow such that we can share that with everyone who's listening and if our aim everyone who's listening and if our aim everyone who's listening and if our aim is true and upward then that's what is true and upward then that's what is true and upward then that's what we're doing well that means that we're

we're doing well that means that we're we're doing well that means that we're going to have to match ourselves to a going to have to match ourselves to a going to have to match ourselves to a pattern of interaction and that's marked pattern of interaction and that's marked pattern of interaction and that's marked for us emotionally like you and I both for us emotionally like you and I both for us emotionally like you and I both know this if we're doing this right know this if we're doing this right know this if we're doing this right we're going to be interested in the we're going to be interested in the we're going to be interested in the conversation we're not going to be conversation we're not going to be conversation we're not going to be looking at or watch we're not going to looking at or watch we're not going to looking at or watch we're not going to be thinking about what we're aiming at be thinking about what we're aiming at be thinking about what we're aiming at we're just going to communicate now the we're just going to communicate now the we're just going to communicate now the religious interpretation of that would religious interpretation of that would religious interpretation of that would be that we were doing something like be that we were doing something like be that we were doing something like making the Redemptive logos manifest making the Redemptive logos manifest making the Redemptive logos manifest between us in dialogue and that's between us in dialogue and that's between us in dialogue and that's something that can be shared to do that something that can be shared to do that something that can be shared to do that we have to align with that pattern I we have to align with that pattern I we have to align with that pattern I can't decide that there's some arbitrary can't decide that there's some arbitrary can't decide that there's some arbitrary way that I'm going to play you I mean I way that I'm going to play you I mean I way that I'm going to play you I mean I could do that if I was a psychopathic could do that if I was a psychopathic could do that if I was a psychopathic manipulator but to do that optimally I'm manipulator but to do that optimally I'm manipulator but to do that optimally I'm not going to impose a certain mode not going to impose a certain mode not going to impose a certain mode of a certain a priority aim let's say on of a certain a priority aim let's say on of a certain a priority aim let's say on our communication and manip and our communication and manip and our communication and manip and manipulate you into that manipulate you into that manipulate you into that so the constraints on my so the constraints on my so the constraints on my ethos reflect the actual structure of of ethos reflect the actual structure of of ethos reflect the actual structure of of the world and I can't this is this is the world and I can't this is this is the world and I can't this is this is the Communist presumption it's like the Communist presumption it's like the Communist presumption it's like we're we're going to burn everything we're we're going to burn everything we're we're going to burn everything down and we're going to start from down and we're going to start from down and we're going to start from scratch and we've got these axiomatic scratch and we've got these axiomatic scratch and we've got these axiomatic presumptions and we're going to put them presumptions and we're going to put them presumptions and we're going to put them into place and we're going to socialize into place and we're going to socialize into place and we're going to socialize people so they now think and live like people so they now think and live like people so they now think and live like Communists from day one and human beings Communists from day one and human beings Communists from day one and human beings are infinitely malleable and we can use are infinitely malleable and we can use are infinitely malleable and we can use a rational set of presuppositions to a rational set of presuppositions to a rational set of presuppositions to decide what sort of beings they should decide what sort of beings they should decide what sort of beings they should be the transhumanists are doing this too be the transhumanists are doing this too be the transhumanists are doing this too it's like no there's a pattern of being it's like no there's a pattern of being it's like no there's a pattern of being that you have to fall into alignment that you have to fall into alignment that you have to fall into alignment with and it I think it's the pattern of

with and it I think it's the pattern of with and it I think it's the pattern of being by the way that if you fall into being by the way that if you fall into being by the way that if you fall into alignment with it gives you hope it it alignment with it gives you hope it it alignment with it gives you hope it it it protects you from anxiety and it it protects you from anxiety and it it protects you from anxiety and it gives you a sense of harmony with your gives you a sense of harmony with your gives you a sense of harmony with your surroundings with other people and none surroundings with other people and none surroundings with other people and none of that's arbitrary but don't you think of that's arbitrary but don't you think of that's arbitrary but don't you think we both ared to this conversation with we both ared to this conversation with we both ared to this conversation with rigid axioms that we have maybe we're rigid axioms that we have maybe we're rigid axioms that we have maybe we're blind to them but in the same way that blind to them but in the same way that blind to them but in the same way that the Marxist came with very rigid axioms the Marxist came with very rigid axioms the Marxist came with very rigid axioms about the way the world is and the way about the way the world is and the way about the way the world is and the way it should be aren't we coming to that it should be aren't we coming to that it should be aren't we coming to that well we definitely come to the well we definitely come to the well we definitely come to the conversation with a hierarchy of conversation with a hierarchy of conversation with a hierarchy of foundation oxums right and I would say foundation oxums right and I would say foundation oxums right and I would say the more sophisticated you are as a the more sophisticated you are as a the more sophisticated you are as a thinker the the deeper the level at thinker the the deeper the level at thinker the the deeper the level at which you're willing to play so imagine which you're willing to play so imagine which you're willing to play so imagine first that you have presumptions of first that you have presumptions of first that you have presumptions of different depth there's more predicated different depth there's more predicated different depth there's more predicated on the more fundamental axioms and then on the more fundamental axioms and then on the more fundamental axioms and then that there's a a space of play around that there's a a space of play around that there's a a space of play around those and that space of play is going to those and that space of play is going to those and that space of play is going to depend on the sophistication of the depend on the sophistication of the depend on the sophistication of the player obviously player obviously player obviously but those who are capable of engaging in but those who are capable of engaging in but those who are capable of engaging in deeper conversations talk about more deeper conversations talk about more deeper conversations talk about more fundamental things with more play now we fundamental things with more play now we fundamental things with more play now we have to come to the conversation with a have to come to the conversation with a have to come to the conversation with a certain degree of structure because we certain degree of structure because we certain degree of structure because we wouldn't be able to understand each wouldn't be able to understand each wouldn't be able to understand each other or communicate if if a lot of other or communicate if if a lot of other or communicate if if a lot of things weren't already assumed or taken things weren't already assumed or taken things weren't already assumed or taken for granted how rigid is the hierarchy for granted how rigid is the hierarchy for granted how rigid is the hierarchy of axioms that religion provides this is of axioms that religion provides this is of axioms that religion provides this is what I'm trying to understand the what I'm trying to understand the what I'm trying to understand the rigidity of that hierarchy is play well rigidity of that hierarchy is play well rigidity of that hierarchy is play well play is not rigid at all no no no no no play is not rigid at all no no no no no play is not rigid at all no no no no no no it's got a rigid some constraints it

no it's got a rigid some constraints it no it's got a rigid some constraints it took me about 40 years to figure out the took me about 40 years to figure out the took me about 40 years to figure out the answer to that question so it wasn't I'm answer to that question so it wasn't I'm answer to that question so it wasn't I'm serious about that so it wasn't it serious about that so it wasn't it serious about that so it wasn't it wasn't a random answer wasn't a random answer wasn't a random answer so play is very rigid in some ways so so play is very rigid in some ways so so play is very rigid in some ways so like if you and I go out to play like if you and I go out to play like if you and I go out to play basketball or chess like There are rules basketball or chess like There are rules basketball or chess like There are rules and you can't break the rules because and you can't break the rules because and you can't break the rules because then you're no longer in the game but then you're no longer in the game but then you're no longer in the game but then there's a dynamism within those then there's a dynamism within those then there's a dynamism within those rules that's well with chess it's rules that's well with chess it's rules that's well with chess it's virtually infinite I mean I think what virtually infinite I mean I think what virtually infinite I mean I think what is it there's more patterns of potential is it there's more patterns of potential is it there's more patterns of potential games on a chessboard than there are games on a chessboard than there are games on a chessboard than there are subatomic particles in the observable subatomic particles in the observable subatomic particles in the observable universe like it's an insane space so universe like it's an insane space so universe like it's an insane space so it's not like there's not Freedom within it's not like there's not Freedom within it's not like there's not Freedom within it but by the it's it's a weird Paradox it but by the it's it's a weird Paradox it but by the it's it's a weird Paradox in a way isn't it because music is like in a way isn't it because music is like in a way isn't it because music is like this too is that there are definitely this too is that there are definitely this too is that there are definitely rules and so and there are things you rules and so and there are things you rules and so and there are things you can't throw a basketball into a chess can't throw a basketball into a chess can't throw a basketball into a chess board and still be playing chess but board and still be playing chess but board and still be playing chess but weirdly enough if you adhere to the weirdly enough if you adhere to the weirdly enough if you adhere to the rules the realm of Freedom increases rules the realm of Freedom increases rules the realm of Freedom increases rather than decreasing and I I think you rather than decreasing and I I think you rather than decreasing and I I think you can make the same case for a playful can make the same case for a playful can make the same case for a playful conversation as it's like we're playing conversation as it's like we're playing conversation as it's like we're playing by certain rules and a lot of them are by certain rules and a lot of them are by certain rules and a lot of them are implicit but that doesn't mean that it implicit but that doesn't mean that it implicit but that doesn't mean that it might mean the reverse of constraint you might mean the reverse of constraint you might mean the reverse of constraint you know know know because in this seminar for example that because in this seminar for example that because in this seminar for example that I was referring to the Exodus seminar I was referring to the Exodus seminar I was referring to the Exodus seminar and then the gospel seminar everybody in and then the gospel seminar everybody in and then the gospel seminar everybody in the seminar there's about eight of us the seminar there's about eight of us the seminar there's about eight of us played Fair nobody play used power played Fair nobody play used power played Fair nobody play used power nobody tried to prove they were right nobody tried to prove they were right nobody tried to prove they were right they put forward their points but they they put forward their points but they they put forward their points but they were like here's a way of looking at were like here's a way of looking at were like here's a way of looking at that assess it and they were also doing that assess it and they were also doing that assess it and they were also doing it genuinely it's like this is what I've

it genuinely it's like this is what I've it genuinely it's like this is what I've concluded about say this story and i' concluded about say this story and i' concluded about say this story and i' and I'm going to make a case for it but and I'm going to make a case for it but and I'm going to make a case for it but I'd like to hear what you have to say I'd like to hear what you have to say I'd like to hear what you have to say because maybe you can change it you can because maybe you can change it you can because maybe you can change it you can extend it you can find a flaw in it and extend it you can find a flaw in it and extend it you can find a flaw in it and that's well that's a conversation that that's well that's a conversation that that's well that's a conversation that has flow and that's engaging and that has flow and that's engaging and that has flow and that's engaging and that other people will listen to as well and other people will listen to as well and other people will listen to as well and that's also see I think that one of the that's also see I think that one of the that's also see I think that one of the things that we can conclude now and we things that we can conclude now and we things that we can conclude now and we can do this even from a neuroscientific can do this even from a neuroscientific can do this even from a neuroscientific basis is that that sense of engaged basis is that that sense of engaged basis is that that sense of engaged meaning is a marker not only for the meaning is a marker not only for the meaning is a marker not only for the emergence of Harmony between you and emergence of Harmony between you and emergence of Harmony between you and your environment but for the emergence your environment but for the emergence your environment but for the emergence of that Harmony in a way that is of that Harmony in a way that is of that Harmony in a way that is developmentally Rich that moves you developmentally Rich that moves you developmentally Rich that moves you upward towards what would you upward towards what would you upward towards what would you say well I think towards a more say well I think towards a more say well I think towards a more effective entropic State that's actually effective entropic State that's actually effective entropic State that's actually the technical answer to that but it the technical answer to that but it the technical answer to that but it makes you more than you are and there's makes you more than you are and there's makes you more than you are and there's a directionality in that well I would a directionality in that well I would a directionality in that well I would like to sort of the reason I like like to sort of the reason I like like to sort of the reason I like talking about communism because it has talking about communism because it has talking about communism because it has clearly been shown as a set of ideas to clearly been shown as a set of ideas to clearly been shown as a set of ideas to be destructive be destructive be destructive to to humanity but I would like to to to humanity but I would like to to to humanity but I would like to understand from an engineering understand from an engineering understand from an engineering perspective the characteristics of perspective the characteristics of perspective the characteristics of communism versus religion uh where you communism versus religion uh where you communism versus religion uh where you can identify religious thought is going can identify religious thought is going can identify religious thought is going to lead to a better human being a better to lead to a better human being a better to lead to a better human being a better society and communist Marxist thought society and communist Marxist thought society and communist Marxist thought it's not because there's ambiguity it's not because there's ambiguity it's not because there's ambiguity there's room for play in communism and there's room for play in communism and there's room for play in communism and Marxism because they kind of had a Marxism because they kind of had a Marxism because they kind of had a utopian sense of where everybody's utopian sense of where everybody's utopian sense of where everybody's headed don't know it's going to happen headed don't know it's going to happen headed don't know it's going to happen maybe Revolution is required but after

maybe Revolution is required but after maybe Revolution is required but after the revolution is done we'll figure it the revolution is done we'll figure it the revolution is done we'll figure it out and there's an underlying assumption out and there's an underlying assumption out and there's an underlying assumption that maybe human beings are good and that maybe human beings are good and that maybe human beings are good and they'll figure it out when once you they'll figure it out when once you they'll figure it out when once you remove the oppressor I mean all these remove the oppressor I mean all these remove the oppressor I mean all these ideas kind of until you put them into ideas kind of until you put them into ideas kind of until you put them into practice you could they can be quite practice you could they can be quite practice you could they can be quite convincing if you in the 19th century if convincing if you in the 19th century if convincing if you in the 19th century if I was reading which is kind of I was reading which is kind of I was reading which is kind of fascinating the 19th century produced fascinating the 19th century produced fascinating the 19th century produced such powerful ideas marks and nich oh such powerful ideas marks and nich oh such powerful ideas marks and nich oh fascism too for that matter fascism so fascism too for that matter fascism so fascism too for that matter fascism so you know if I was sitting there uh like you know if I was sitting there uh like you know if I was sitting there uh like especially if I'm feeling shitty about especially if I'm feeling shitty about especially if I'm feeling shitty about myself um a lot of these ideas are myself um a lot of these ideas are myself um a lot of these ideas are pretty powerful as as a as a way to plug pretty powerful as as a as a way to plug pretty powerful as as a as a way to plug the Ness hole Yeah right absolutely well the Ness hole Yeah right absolutely well the Ness hole Yeah right absolutely well and some of them may actually have an and some of them may actually have an and some of them may actually have an appropriate scope of application it appropriate scope of application it appropriate scope of application it could be that some of the foundational could be that some of the foundational could be that some of the foundational axioms of Communism socialism SLC axioms of Communism socialism SLC axioms of Communism socialism SLC communism are actually functional in a communism are actually functional in a communism are actually functional in a sufficiently small social group maybe a sufficiently small social group maybe a sufficiently small social group maybe a Bible group even like I I also have a Bible group even like I I also have a Bible group even like I I also have a I'm not sure this is correct but I have I'm not sure this is correct but I have I'm not sure this is correct but I have a suspicion that the pervasive a suspicion that the pervasive a suspicion that the pervasive attractiveness of some of the radical attractiveness of some of the radical attractiveness of some of the radical left ideas that we're talking about are left ideas that we're talking about are left ideas that we're talking about are pervasive precisely because they are pervasive precisely because they are pervasive precisely because they are functional within say families but also functional within say families but also functional within say families but also within the small tribal groups that within the small tribal groups that within the small tribal groups that people might have originally evolved people might have originally evolved people might have originally evolved into and that once we become into and that once we become into and that once we become civilized so we produce societies that civilized so we produce societies that civilized so we produce societies that are united even among people who don't are united even among people who don't are united even among people who don't know one another that different know one another that different know one another that different principles have to apply as a principles have to apply as a principles have to apply as a consequence of scale so that's that's

consequence of scale so that's that's consequence of scale so that's that's partly an engineering response but but I partly an engineering response but but I partly an engineering response but but I think there's a more a deeper way of think there's a more a deeper way of think there's a more a deeper way of going after the Communist problem so I going after the Communist problem so I going after the Communist problem so I think part of the Communist the problem think part of the Communist the problem think part of the Communist the problem fundamental problem with the Communist fundamental problem with the Communist fundamental problem with the Communist axim is the notion that the world of axim is the notion that the world of axim is the notion that the world of complex social interactions can be complex social interactions can be complex social interactions can be simplified sufficiently so that simplified sufficiently so that simplified sufficiently so that centralized planning authorities can centralized planning authorities can centralized planning authorities can deal with it and I think the best way to deal with it and I think the best way to deal with it and I think the best way to think about the free Exchange rejoiner think about the free Exchange rejoiner think about the free Exchange rejoiner to that presumption is no the sum total to that presumption is no the sum total to that presumption is no the sum total of human interactions in a large of human interactions in a large of human interactions in a large civilization are so immense that you civilization are so immense that you civilization are so immense that you need a distributed network of cognition need a distributed network of cognition need a distributed network of cognition in order to compute the proper way in order to compute the proper way in order to compute the proper way forward and so what you do is you give forward and so what you do is you give forward and so what you do is you give each actor their domain of individual each actor their domain of individual each actor their domain of individual choice so that they can maximize their choice so that they can maximize their choice so that they can maximize their own movement forward and you allow the own movement forward and you allow the own movement forward and you allow the aggregate direction to emerge from that aggregate direction to emerge from that aggregate direction to emerge from that rather than trying to impose it from the rather than trying to impose it from the rather than trying to impose it from the top down which I think is top down which I think is top down which I think is computationally impossible so that might computationally impossible so that might computationally impossible so that might be one engineering reason why the be one engineering reason why the be one engineering reason why the Communist solution doesn't work like I Communist solution doesn't work like I Communist solution doesn't work like I read in Sol nedson for example that the read in Sol nedson for example that the read in Sol nedson for example that the the central Soviet authorities often had the central Soviet authorities often had the central Soviet authorities often had to make 200 pricing decisions a to make 200 pricing decisions a to make 200 pricing decisions a day now if you've ever started a day now if you've ever started a day now if you've ever started a business or created a product and had to business or created a product and had to business or created a product and had to wrestle with the problem of pricing wrestle with the problem of pricing wrestle with the problem of pricing you'd become aware of just how you'd become aware of just how you'd become aware of just how intractable that is like how do you intractable that is like how do you intractable that is like how do you calculate worth well there's the central calculate worth well there's the central calculate worth well there's the central existential problem of Life how how do existential problem of Life how how do existential problem of Life how how do you calculate worth it's not something you calculate worth it's not something you calculate worth it's not something like a central Authority can sit down like a central Authority can sit down like a central Authority can sit down and just manage and you you there is a

and just manage and you you there is a and just manage and you you there is a lot of inputs that go into a pricing lot of inputs that go into a pricing lot of inputs that go into a pricing decision and the free market answer to decision and the free market answer to decision and the free market answer to that is something like well if you get that is something like well if you get that is something like well if you get the price right people will buy it and the price right people will buy it and the price right people will buy it and you'll survive this is a fascinating way you'll survive this is a fascinating way you'll survive this is a fascinating way to describe how ideas fail so communism to describe how ideas fail so communism to describe how ideas fail so communism perhaps fails because uh just like what perhaps fails because uh just like what perhaps fails because uh just like what people believe the Earth is flat when people believe the Earth is flat when people believe the Earth is flat when you look outside it's it looks you look outside it's it looks you look outside it's it looks flat but you can't see Beyond the flat but you can't see Beyond the flat but you can't see Beyond the Horizon I guess so in the same way with Horizon I guess so in the same way with Horizon I guess so in the same way with Communism communism seems like a great Communism communism seems like a great Communism communism seems like a great idea in my family and my people I love idea in my family and my people I love idea in my family and my people I love but it doesn't scale and and it doesn't but it doesn't scale and and it doesn't but it doesn't scale and and it doesn't iterate it doesn't that's a form of iterate it doesn't that's a form of iterate it doesn't that's a form of scaling too right well I mean whatever scaling too right well I mean whatever scaling too right well I mean whatever ways it breaks down it doesn't scale uh ways it breaks down it doesn't scale uh ways it breaks down it doesn't scale uh and you're saying religious thought is a and you're saying religious thought is a and you're saying religious thought is a thing that might scale I would say thing that might scale I would say thing that might scale I would say religious thought is the record of those religious thought is the record of those religious thought is the record of those ideas that have in fact scaled right and ideas that have in fact scaled right and ideas that have in fact scaled right and iterated itated does religious thought iterated itated does religious thought iterated itated does religious thought it it it great so I mean there's a fundamental great so I mean there's a fundamental great so I mean there's a fundamental conservative aspect to religious thought conservative aspect to religious thought conservative aspect to religious thought tradition yeah there this is why like tradition yeah there this is why like tradition yeah there this is why like mer elad for example who I referred to mer elad for example who I referred to mer elad for example who I referred to earlier one of the things elad did and earlier one of the things elad did and earlier one of the things elad did and very effectively and people like Joseph very effectively and people like Joseph very effectively and people like Joseph Campbell who in some ways were Campbell who in some ways were Campbell who in some ways were popularizers of Jose of elad's ideas and popularizers of Jose of elad's ideas and popularizers of Jose of elad's ideas and Carl Jung's what they really did was Carl Jung's what they really did was Carl Jung's what they really did was devote themselves to an analysis of devote themselves to an analysis of devote themselves to an analysis of those ideals ideas that scaled and those ideals ideas that scaled and those ideals ideas that scaled and iterated across the largest possible iterated across the largest possible iterated across the largest possible spans of time and so ilad and Yung Eric spans of time and so ilad and Yung Eric spans of time and so ilad and Yung Eric neyman they were looking and and neyman they were looking and and neyman they were looking and and Campbell they were looking at patterns Campbell they were looking at patterns Campbell they were looking at patterns of narrative that were common across

of narrative that were common across of narrative that were common across religious Traditions that had spanned religious Traditions that had spanned religious Traditions that had spanned Millennia and found many patterns the Millennia and found many patterns the Millennia and found many patterns the heroes myth for example is one of those heroes myth for example is one of those heroes myth for example is one of those patterns and it's I think the evidence patterns and it's I think the evidence patterns and it's I think the evidence that it has its reflection in human that it has its reflection in human that it has its reflection in human neurophysiology and neuros pychology is neurophysiology and neuros pychology is neurophysiology and neuros pychology is incontrovertible and so these incontrovertible and so these incontrovertible and so these foundational narratives they last foundational narratives they last foundational narratives they last they're common across multiple religious they're common across multiple religious they're common across multiple religious Traditions they Unite they work Traditions they Unite they work Traditions they Unite they work psychologically but they also reflect psychologically but they also reflect psychologically but they also reflect the underlying neurophysiological the underlying neurophysiological the underlying neurophysiological architecture so I can give you an architecture so I can give you an architecture so I can give you an example of that so the hero myth is example of that so the hero myth is example of that so the hero myth is really a quest myth and a quest myth is really a quest myth and a quest myth is really a quest myth and a quest myth is really a story of exploration and really a story of exploration and really a story of exploration and expansion of adaptation right so Bilbo expansion of adaptation right so Bilbo expansion of adaptation right so Bilbo The Hobbit he's kind of an ordinary The Hobbit he's kind of an ordinary The Hobbit he's kind of an ordinary every man he lives in a very constrained every man he lives in a very constrained every man he lives in a very constrained and orderly and secure world and then and orderly and secure world and then and orderly and secure world and then the quest call comes and he goes out and the quest call comes and he goes out and the quest call comes and he goes out and he expands his personality and develops he expands his personality and develops he expands his personality and develops his wisdom and that's reflected in human his wisdom and that's reflected in human his wisdom and that's reflected in human neuropsychological architecture at a neuropsychological architecture at a neuropsychological architecture at a very low level way below cognition so very low level way below cognition so very low level way below cognition so one of the most fundamental elements of one of the most fundamental elements of one of the most fundamental elements of the mamalian brain and even in lower the mamalian brain and even in lower the mamalian brain and even in lower animal forms is the hypothalamus it's animal forms is the hypothalamus it's animal forms is the hypothalamus it's sort of the root of primary motivation sort of the root of primary motivation sort of the root of primary motivation so it governs lust and um and it so it governs lust and um and it so it governs lust and um and it regulates your breathing and it regulates your breathing and it regulates your breathing and it regulates your hunger and it regulates regulates your hunger and it regulates regulates your hunger and it regulates your thirst and it regulates your your thirst and it regulates your your thirst and it regulates your temperature like really low-level temperature like really low-level temperature like really low-level biological Necessities are regulated by biological Necessities are regulated by biological Necessities are regulated by the hypothalamus when you get hungry the hypothalamus when you get hungry the hypothalamus when you get hungry it's the hypothalamus when you're it's the hypothalamus when you're it's the hypothalamus when you're activated in a defensively aggressive activated in a defensively aggressive activated in a defensively aggressive manner that's the hypothalamus half the manner that's the hypothalamus half the manner that's the hypothalamus half the hypothalamus is the origin of the

hypothalamus is the origin of the hypothalamus is the origin of the dopaminergic tracts and they subsume dopaminergic tracts and they subsume dopaminergic tracts and they subsume exploration and so you could think of exploration and so you could think of exploration and so you could think of the human motivational reality as a the human motivational reality as a the human motivational reality as a domain that's governed by axiomatic domain that's governed by axiomatic domain that's governed by axiomatic motivational States love sex defensive motivational States love sex defensive motivational States love sex defensive aggression hunger and another domain aggression hunger and another domain aggression hunger and another domain that's governed by exploration and the that's governed by exploration and the that's governed by exploration and the rule would be something like when your rule would be something like when your rule would be something like when your basic motivational states are sated basic motivational states are sated basic motivational states are sated explore well then and and that's not explore well then and and that's not explore well then and and that's not cognitive like I said this is deep deep cognitive like I said this is deep deep cognitive like I said this is deep deep brain architecture it's extraordinarily brain architecture it's extraordinarily brain architecture it's extraordinarily ancient and and the exploration story is ancient and and the exploration story is ancient and and the exploration story is something like go out into the unknown something like go out into the unknown something like go out into the unknown and take the risks because the and take the risks because the and take the risks because the information that information that information that you discover and the skills you develop you discover and the skills you develop you discover and the skills you develop will be worthwhile even in sating the will be worthwhile even in sating the will be worthwhile even in sating the basic motivational drives and then you basic motivational drives and then you basic motivational drives and then you want to learn to do that in a iterative want to learn to do that in a iterative want to learn to do that in a iterative manner so it sustains across time and manner so it sustains across time and manner so it sustains across time and you want to do it in a way that unites you want to do it in a way that unites you want to do it in a way that unites you with other people and there's a you with other people and there's a you with other people and there's a pattern to that and I do think that's pattern to that and I do think that's pattern to that and I do think that's the pattern that's we strive to the pattern that's we strive to the pattern that's we strive to encapsulate in our deep religious encapsulate in our deep religious encapsulate in our deep religious narratives and I think that in many ways narratives and I think that in many ways narratives and I think that in many ways we've done that successfully what is the we've done that successfully what is the we've done that successfully what is the believe in God how does that fit in what believe in God how does that fit in what believe in God how does that fit in what does it mean to believe in God okay so does it mean to believe in God okay so does it mean to believe in God okay so in one of the stories that I cover in uh in one of the stories that I cover in uh in one of the stories that I cover in uh we who wrestle with God which I've only we who wrestle with God which I've only we who wrestle with God which I've only recently begun to take apart say in the recently begun to take apart say in the recently begun to take apart say in the last two years is the story of Abraham last two years is the story of Abraham last two years is the story of Abraham it's a very cool story and it's also it's a very cool story and it's also it's a very cool story and it's also related by the way to your question related by the way to your question related by the way to your question about what makes communism wrong and

about what makes communism wrong and about what makes communism wrong and dovi knew this not precisely the Abraham dovi knew this not precisely the Abraham dovi knew this not precisely the Abraham story but the the same reason in Notes story but the the same reason in Notes story but the the same reason in Notes from Underground dovi made a very from Underground dovi made a very from Underground dovi made a very telling observation so he speaks in the telling observation so he speaks in the telling observation so he speaks in the voice of a cynical nihilistic and bitter voice of a cynical nihilistic and bitter voice of a cynical nihilistic and bitter bureaucrat who's been a failure who's bureaucrat who's been a failure who's bureaucrat who's been a failure who's talking cynically about the nature of talking cynically about the nature of talking cynically about the nature of human beings but also very ACC human beings but also very ACC human beings but also very ACC accurately and one of the things he accurately and one of the things he accurately and one of the things he points out with regards to Modern points out with regards to Modern points out with regards to Modern utopianism is that human beings are very utopianism is that human beings are very utopianism is that human beings are very strange creatures and that if you gave strange creatures and that if you gave strange creatures and that if you gave them what the Socialist utopians want to them what the Socialist utopians want to them what the Socialist utopians want to give them so let's say all your needs give them so let's say all your needs give them so let's say all your needs are taken care of all your material are taken care of all your material are taken care of all your material needs are taken care of and even needs are taken care of and even needs are taken care of and even indefinitely dov's claim was you don't indefinitely dov's claim was you don't indefinitely dov's claim was you don't understand human beings very well understand human beings very well understand human beings very well because if you put them in an because if you put them in an because if you put them in an environment that was that comfortable environment that was that comfortable environment that was that comfortable they would purposefully go insane just they would purposefully go insane just they would purposefully go insane just to break it into bits just so something to break it into bits just so something to break it into bits just so something interesting would happen right and he interesting would happen right and he interesting would happen right and he says it's it's the human Pro proclivity says it's it's the human Pro proclivity says it's it's the human Pro proclivity to curse and complain and he says this to curse and complain and he says this to curse and complain and he says this in quite a cynic and CTIC manner but in quite a cynic and CTIC manner but in quite a cynic and CTIC manner but he's pointing to something deep which is he's pointing to something deep which is he's pointing to something deep which is that we're not built for comfort and that we're not built for comfort and that we're not built for comfort and security we're not infants we're not security we're not infants we're not security we're not infants we're not after after after satiation so then you might ask well satiation so then you might ask well satiation so then you might ask well what the hell are we after then that's what the hell are we after then that's what the hell are we after then that's what the Abraham story addresses and what the Abraham story addresses and what the Abraham story addresses and Abraham is the first true individual in Abraham is the first true individual in Abraham is the first true individual in the biblical narrative so you could the biblical narrative so you could the biblical narrative so you could think about his story as the archetypal think about his story as the archetypal think about his story as the archetypal story of the developing individual so story of the developing individual so story of the developing individual so you said well what's God well in the you said well what's God well in the you said well what's God well in the Abraham story God has characterized a Abraham story God has characterized a Abraham story God has characterized a lot of different ways in the classic lot of different ways in the classic lot of different ways in the classic religious texts like the Bible is

religious texts like the Bible is religious texts like the Bible is actually a compilation of different actually a compilation of different actually a compilation of different characterizations of the Divine with the characterizations of the Divine with the characterizations of the Divine with the insistence that they reflect an insistence that they reflect an insistence that they reflect an underlying unity in the story of underlying unity in the story of underlying unity in the story of Abraham the Divine is the Call to Abraham the Divine is the Call to Abraham the Divine is the Call to Adventure so Abraham has the Socialist Adventure so Abraham has the Socialist Adventure so Abraham has the Socialist Utopia at hand he's from a wealthy Utopia at hand he's from a wealthy Utopia at hand he's from a wealthy family and he has everything he needs family and he has everything he needs family and he has everything he needs and he actually doesn't do anything and he actually doesn't do anything and he actually doesn't do anything until he's in his 70s now hypothetically until he's in his 70s now hypothetically until he's in his 70s now hypothetically people in those times lived much longer people in those times lived much longer people in those times lived much longer but the voice comes to Abraham and it but the voice comes to Abraham and it but the voice comes to Abraham and it tells him something very tells him something very tells him something very specific it specific it specific it says leave your zone of comfort leave says leave your zone of comfort leave says leave your zone of comfort leave your parents leave your tent leave your your parents leave your tent leave your your parents leave your tent leave your community leave your tribe leave your community leave your tribe leave your community leave your tribe leave your land go out into the land go out into the land go out into the world and Abraham thinks well why I've world and Abraham thinks well why I've world and Abraham thinks well why I've got naked slave girls peeling grapes and got naked slave girls peeling grapes and got naked slave girls peeling grapes and feeding them to me it's like what do I feeding them to me it's like what do I feeding them to me it's like what do I need an adventure for and God tells them need an adventure for and God tells them need an adventure for and God tells them and this is the Covenant by the way part and this is the Covenant by the way part and this is the Covenant by the way part of the Covenant that the god of the of the Covenant that the god of the of the Covenant that the god of the Israelites makes with his people it's Israelites makes with his people it's Israelites makes with his people it's very very specific it's very brilliant very very specific it's very brilliant very very specific it's very brilliant he says if you follow the voice of he says if you follow the voice of he says if you follow the voice of Adventure you'll become a blessing to Adventure you'll become a blessing to Adventure you'll become a blessing to yourself so that's a good deal because yourself so that's a good deal because yourself so that's a good deal because people generally live at odds with people generally live at odds with people generally live at odds with themselves and he says God says that's themselves and he says God says that's themselves and he says God says that's not not not all you'll become un blessing to all you'll become un blessing to all you'll become un blessing to yourself in a way that furthers your yourself in a way that furthers your yourself in a way that furthers your reputation among people and validly so reputation among people and validly so reputation among people and validly so that you'll accomplish things that were that you'll accomplish things that were that you'll accomplish things that were real and people will know it and you'll real and people will know it and you'll real and people will know it and you'll be held high in their esteem and that

be held high in their esteem and that be held high in their esteem and that will be valid so that's a pretty good will be valid so that's a pretty good will be valid so that's a pretty good deal because social people would like to deal because social people would like to deal because social people would like to be regarded as of utility and worth by be regarded as of utility and worth by be regarded as of utility and worth by others and so that's a good deal and and others and so that's a good deal and and others and so that's a good deal and and God says that's not God says that's not God says that's not all you'll establish something of all you'll establish something of all you'll establish something of lasting permanent and deep value that's lasting permanent and deep value that's lasting permanent and deep value that's why Abraham becomes the father of why Abraham becomes the father of why Abraham becomes the father of Nations and finally caps it off and he Nations and finally caps it off and he Nations and finally caps it off and he says there's a bet there's a better says there's a bet there's a better says there's a bet there's a better element even to it there's a Capstone element even to it there's a Capstone element even to it there's a Capstone you'll do all three of those things in a you'll do all three of those things in a you'll do all three of those things in a way that's maximally beneficial to way that's maximally beneficial to way that's maximally beneficial to everyone else and so the Divinity in the everyone else and so the Divinity in the everyone else and so the Divinity in the abrahamic story is making a claim he abrahamic story is making a claim he abrahamic story is making a claim he says first of all there's a drive that says first of all there's a drive that says first of all there's a drive that you should attend to so the spirit of you should attend to so the spirit of you should attend to so the spirit of Adventure that calls you out of your Adventure that calls you out of your Adventure that calls you out of your zone of comfort now if you attend to zone of comfort now if you attend to zone of comfort now if you attend to that and you make the sacrifices necess that and you make the sacrifices necess that and you make the sacrifices necess necessary to follow that path then the necessary to follow that path then the necessary to follow that path then the following benefits will accue to you following benefits will accue to you following benefits will accue to you your life will be a blessing everyone your life will be a blessing everyone your life will be a blessing everyone will hold you in high estem you'll will hold you in high estem you'll will hold you in high estem you'll establish something of permanent value establish something of permanent value establish something of permanent value and you'll do it in a way that's and you'll do it in a way that's and you'll do it in a way that's maximally beneficial to everyone else maximally beneficial to everyone else maximally beneficial to everyone else and so so think about what this means and so so think about what this means and so so think about what this means biologically or from an engineering biologically or from an engineering biologically or from an engineering standpoint it means that the instinct to standpoint it means that the instinct to standpoint it means that the instinct to develop that characterizes outward develop that characterizes outward develop that characterizes outward moving children let's say or adults is moving children let's say or adults is moving children let's say or adults is the same Instinct that allows for the same Instinct that allows for the same Instinct that allows for psychological stability that allows for psychological stability that allows for psychological stability that allows for movement upward in a social hierarchy movement upward in a social hierarchy movement upward in a social hierarchy that establishes something iterable and that establishes something iterable and that establishes something iterable and that does that in a manner that allows that does that in a manner that allows that does that in a manner that allows everyone else to partake in the same everyone else to partake in the same everyone else to partake in the same process well you know that's a good deal

process well you know that's a good deal process well you know that's a good deal and like I can't see how it cannot be and like I can't see how it cannot be and like I can't see how it cannot be true because the alternative hypothesis true because the alternative hypothesis true because the alternative hypothesis would be that the spirit that moves you would be that the spirit that moves you would be that the spirit that moves you beyond yourself to develop the spirit of beyond yourself to develop the spirit of beyond yourself to develop the spirit of a curious child let's say what is that a curious child let's say what is that a curious child let's say what is that antithetical to your own esteem is that antithetical to your own esteem is that antithetical to your own esteem is that antithetical to other people's best antithetical to other people's best antithetical to other people's best interest is it not the thing that interest is it not the thing that interest is it not the thing that increases the probability that you'll do increases the probability that you'll do increases the probability that you'll do something permanent that's that's a something permanent that's that's a something permanent that's that's a stupid Theory so God is a call to stupid Theory so God is a call to stupid Theory so God is a call to Adventure with some constraints a call Adventure with some constraints a call Adventure with some constraints a call to true adventure to true adventure true to true adventure to true adventure true to true adventure to true adventure true adventure yeah and then that's a good adventure yeah and then that's a good adventure yeah and then that's a good observation because that begs the observation because that begs the observation because that begs the question what constitutes the most true question what constitutes the most true question what constitutes the most true adventure well that's not fully fleshed adventure well that's not fully fleshed adventure well that's not fully fleshed out until at least from the Christian out until at least from the Christian out until at least from the Christian Perspective let's say that's not fully Perspective let's say that's not fully Perspective let's say that's not fully fleshed out until the Gospels fleshed out until the Gospels fleshed out until the Gospels because the passion of Christ is the you because the passion of Christ is the you because the passion of Christ is the you could say this is the perfectly could say this is the perfectly could say this is the perfectly reasonable way of looking at it the reasonable way of looking at it the reasonable way of looking at it the passion of Christ is the truest passion of Christ is the truest passion of Christ is the truest adventure of Abraham it's a terrible adventure of Abraham it's a terrible adventure of Abraham it's a terrible thing he because it's a it's a the the thing he because it's a it's a the the thing he because it's a it's a the the passion story is a catastrophic tragedy passion story is a catastrophic tragedy passion story is a catastrophic tragedy although it obviously has its Redemptive although it obviously has its Redemptive although it obviously has its Redemptive elements but one of the things that's elements but one of the things that's elements but one of the things that's implied there is implied there is implied there is that there's no distinction between the that there's no distinction between the that there's no distinction between the true adventure of life and taking on the true adventure of life and taking on the true adventure of life and taking on the pathway of maximal responsibility andth pathway of maximal responsibility andth pathway of maximal responsibility andth burden and I can't see how that cannot burden and I can't see how that cannot burden and I can't see how that cannot be true like cuz the counter hypothesis be true like cuz the counter hypothesis be true like cuz the counter hypothesis is well Lex the best thing for you to do is well Lex the best thing for you to do is well Lex the best thing for you to do in your life is to shrink from all in your life is to shrink from all in your life is to shrink from all Challenge and hide right to remain

Challenge and hide right to remain Challenge and hide right to remain infantile to remain secure not to ever infantile to remain secure not to ever infantile to remain secure not to ever push yourself beyond your limits not to push yourself beyond your limits not to push yourself beyond your limits not to take any risks well no one thinks that's take any risks well no one thinks that's take any risks well no one thinks that's true so basically the maximally true so basically the maximally true so basically the maximally worthwhile Adventure could possibly be worthwhile Adventure could possibly be worthwhile Adventure could possibly be highly correlated with the hardest highly correlated with the hardest highly correlated with the hardest possible available possible available possible available Adventure the hardest possible available Adventure the hardest possible available Adventure the hardest possible available Adventure voluntarily Adventure voluntarily Adventure voluntarily undertaken does it have to be absolutely undertaken does it have to be absolutely undertaken does it have to be absolutely how do you define voluntarily well how do you define voluntarily well how do you define voluntarily well here's an here's an example of that um here's an here's an example of that um here's an here's an example of that um that's that's that's a good question too that's that's that's a good question too that's that's that's a good question too when Christ is the night before the when Christ is the night before the when Christ is the night before the crucifixion which in principle he knows crucifixion which in principle he knows crucifixion which in principle he knows is coming he asks God to relieve him of is coming he asks God to relieve him of is coming he asks God to relieve him of his burden and understandably so I mean his burden and understandably so I mean his burden and understandably so I mean that's the scene in famously in which that's the scene in famously in which that's the scene in famously in which he's sweating literally sweating blood he's sweating literally sweating blood he's sweating literally sweating blood because he knows what's coming and the because he knows what's coming and the because he knows what's coming and the the the Romans designed crucifixion to the the Romans designed crucifixion to the the Romans designed crucifixion to be the most agonizing and humiliating be the most agonizing and humiliating be the most agonizing and humiliating Poss agonizing humiliating and Poss agonizing humiliating and Poss agonizing humiliating and disgusting possible death right so there disgusting possible death right so there disgusting possible death right so there was every reason to be apprehensive was every reason to be apprehensive was every reason to be apprehensive about that and you might say well could about that and you might say well could about that and you might say well could you undertake that voluntarily as an you undertake that voluntarily as an you undertake that voluntarily as an adventure and the answer to that is adventure and the answer to that is adventure and the answer to that is something like well what's your something like well what's your something like well what's your relationship with relationship with relationship with death like that's a problem you have to death like that's a problem you have to death like that's a problem you have to solve and you could fight it and you solve and you could fight it and you solve and you could fight it and you could be bitter about it and there's could be bitter about it and there's could be bitter about it and there's reasons for that that especially if it's reasons for that that especially if it's reasons for that that especially if it's painful and degrading but but the painful and degrading but but the painful and degrading but but the alternative is something alternative is something alternative is something like well that's what's fleshed out in like well that's what's fleshed out in like well that's what's fleshed out in religious imagery always it's very religious imagery always it's very religious imagery always it's very difficult to to cast into words it's difficult to to cast into words it's difficult to to cast into words it's like no you you welcome you welcome the

like no you you welcome you welcome the like no you you welcome you welcome the struggle that's why I called the book we struggle that's why I called the book we struggle that's why I called the book we who wrestle with God you welcome the who wrestle with God you welcome the who wrestle with God you welcome the struggle and Alex I don't see how you struggle and Alex I don't see how you struggle and Alex I don't see how you can come to terms with life without can come to terms with life without can come to terms with life without construing it something like construing construing it something like construing construing it something like construing is something like bring it on welcome is something like bring it on welcome is something like bring it on welcome the struggle and I I can't see that the struggle and I I can't see that the struggle and I I can't see that there's a limit to that it's like well I there's a limit to that it's like well I there's a limit to that it's like well I welcome the struggle until it gets welcome the struggle until it gets welcome the struggle until it gets difficult well so there's not a bell difficult well so there's not a bell difficult well so there's not a bell curve like uh the struggle of moderation curve like uh the struggle of moderation curve like uh the struggle of moderation basically you have to welcome whatever basically you have to welcome whatever basically you have to welcome whatever as hard as it gets and the crucifixion as hard as it gets and the crucifixion as hard as it gets and the crucifixion in that way is a symbol of that well and in that way is a symbol of that well and in that way is a symbol of that well and it well it's it's worse than that in it well it's it's worse than that in it well it's it's worse than that in some ways because the crucifixion some ways because the crucifixion some ways because the crucifixion exemplifies the worst possible death but exemplifies the worst possible death but exemplifies the worst possible death but that isn't the only element of the that isn't the only element of the that isn't the only element of the struggle because mythologically struggle because mythologically struggle because mythologically classically after Christ's death he classically after Christ's death he classically after Christ's death he Harrows hell and what that means as far Harrows hell and what that means as far Harrows hell and what that means as far as I can tell psychologically is that as I can tell psychologically is that as I can tell psychologically is that you're not only required let's say to you're not only required let's say to you're not only required let's say to take on the full existential burden of take on the full existential burden of take on the full existential burden of life and to welcome it regardless of life and to welcome it regardless of life and to welcome it regardless of what it is and to maintain your upward what it is and to maintain your upward what it is and to maintain your upward aim despite all Temptations to the aim despite all Temptations to the aim despite all Temptations to the contrary but you also have to confront contrary but you also have to confront contrary but you also have to confront the root of malevolence itself so it's the root of malevolence itself so it's the root of malevolence itself so it's not merely tragedy and I think the not merely tragedy and I think the not merely tragedy and I think the malevolence is actually worse and the malevolence is actually worse and the malevolence is actually worse and the reason I think that is because I know reason I think that is because I know reason I think that is because I know the literature on post-traumatic stress the literature on post-traumatic stress the literature on post-traumatic stress disorder and most people who encounter disorder and most people who encounter disorder and most people who encounter let's say a challenge that's so brutal let's say a challenge that's so brutal let's say a challenge that's so brutal that it fragments them it isn't mere

that it fragments them it isn't mere that it fragments them it isn't mere suffering that does that to people it's suffering that does that to people it's suffering that does that to people it's an encounter with malevolence that does an encounter with malevolence that does an encounter with malevolence that does that to people their own sometimes Often that to people their own sometimes Often that to people their own sometimes Often by the way Soldier will go out into a by the way Soldier will go out into a by the way Soldier will go out into a battlefield and find out that there's a battlefield and find out that there's a battlefield and find out that there's a part of him that really enjoys the mayem part of him that really enjoys the mayem part of him that really enjoys the mayem and that conceptualization doesn't fit and that conceptualization doesn't fit and that conceptualization doesn't fit in well with everything he thinks he in well with everything he thinks he in well with everything he thinks he knows about himself and humanity and knows about himself and humanity and knows about himself and humanity and after that contact with that dark part after that contact with that dark part after that contact with that dark part of himself he never of himself he never of himself he never recovers that happens to people and and recovers that happens to people and and recovers that happens to people and and it happens to people who encounter Bad it happens to people who encounter Bad it happens to people who encounter Bad actors in the world too if you're a actors in the world too if you're a actors in the world too if you're a naive person and the right narcissistic naive person and the right narcissistic naive person and the right narcissistic psychopath comes your way you are in psychopath comes your way you are in psychopath comes your way you are in like Mortal trouble because you might like Mortal trouble because you might like Mortal trouble because you might die but that's not where the trouble die but that's not where the trouble die but that's not where the trouble ends if there's a young young man in ends if there's a young young man in ends if there's a young young man in their their their 20s listening to this how do they escape 20s listening to this how do they escape 20s listening to this how do they escape the pull of zi's Notes from Underground the pull of zi's Notes from Underground the pull of zi's Notes from Underground with the eyes open to the world how do with the eyes open to the world how do with the eyes open to the world how do they select the adventure so there's they select the adventure so there's they select the adventure so there's other characterizations of the Divine other characterizations of the Divine other characterizations of the Divine say in the Old Testament story so one say in the Old Testament story so one say in the Old Testament story so one pattern of characterization that I think pattern of characterization that I think pattern of characterization that I think is really relevant to that question is is really relevant to that question is is really relevant to that question is the conception of God as calling and the conception of God as calling and the conception of God as calling and conscience okay so what does it mean conscience okay so what does it mean conscience okay so what does it mean it's a description of the manner in it's a description of the manner in it's a description of the manner in which your destiny announces itself to which your destiny announces itself to which your destiny announces itself to you and I'm I'm using that terminology you and I'm I'm using that terminology you and I'm I'm using that terminology and and it's it's distinguishable say and and it's it's distinguishable say and and it's it's distinguishable say from nich's notion that you create your from nich's notion that you create your from nich's notion that you create your own values it's like part of the way you own values it's like part of the way you own values it's like part of the way you can tell that that's wrong is that you can tell that that's wrong is that you can tell that that's wrong is that you can't voluntarily gerrymander your own

can't voluntarily gerrymander your own can't voluntarily gerrymander your own interests right like you find some interests right like you find some interests right like you find some things things things interesting and that seems natural and interesting and that seems natural and interesting and that seems natural and and autonomous and other things you and autonomous and other things you and autonomous and other things you don't find interesting and you can't don't find interesting and you can't don't find interesting and you can't really for yourself to be interested in really for yourself to be interested in really for yourself to be interested in them now so what is the domain of them now so what is the domain of them now so what is the domain of interest that makes itself manifest to interest that makes itself manifest to interest that makes itself manifest to you well it's like an autonomous spirit you well it's like an autonomous spirit you well it's like an autonomous spirit it's like certain things in your field it's like certain things in your field it's like certain things in your field of perception are illuminated to you of perception are illuminated to you of perception are illuminated to you think oh that that's interesting that's think oh that that's interesting that's think oh that that's interesting that's compelling that's gripping Rudolph utto compelling that's gripping Rudolph utto compelling that's gripping Rudolph utto who studied the phenomenology of who studied the phenomenology of who studied the phenomenology of religious experience described religious experience described religious experience described that as that as that as numinous thing grips you CU you're numinous thing grips you CU you're numinous thing grips you CU you're compelled by it and maybe it's also compelled by it and maybe it's also compelled by it and maybe it's also somewhat anxiety provoking it's the same somewhat anxiety provoking it's the same somewhat anxiety provoking it's the same reaction that like a cat has to a dog reaction that like a cat has to a dog reaction that like a cat has to a dog when when the cat's hair stands on end when when the cat's hair stands on end when when the cat's hair stands on end that's an awe response and so there's that's an awe response and so there's that's an awe response and so there's going to be things in your going to be things in your going to be things in your phenomenological field that pull you phenomenological field that pull you phenomenological field that pull you forward compel you that's like the voice forward compel you that's like the voice forward compel you that's like the voice of positive emotion and enthusiasm of positive emotion and enthusiasm of positive emotion and enthusiasm things draw you into the world might be things draw you into the world might be things draw you into the world might be love might be aesthetic interest it love might be aesthetic interest it love might be aesthetic interest it might be friendship it might be social might be friendship it might be social might be friendship it might be social status it might be um Duty and and and status it might be um Duty and and and status it might be um Duty and and and and indust ousness like there's various and indust ousness like there's various and indust ousness like there's various domains of interest that shine for domains of interest that shine for domains of interest that shine for people that's sort of on the positive people that's sort of on the positive people that's sort of on the positive side God is calling right that would be side God is calling right that would be side God is calling right that would be akin to the spirit of Adventure for akin to the spirit of Adventure for akin to the spirit of Adventure for Abraham but there's also God as Abraham but there's also God as Abraham but there's also God as conscience and this is a useful thing to conscience and this is a useful thing to conscience and this is a useful thing to know know know too certain things bother you they they

too certain things bother you they they too certain things bother you they they they take root within you and they they they take root within you and they they they take root within you and they they turn your thoughts towards certain turn your thoughts towards certain turn your thoughts towards certain issues like they things you're issues like they things you're issues like they things you're interested in that you've pursued your interested in that you've pursued your interested in that you've pursued your whole life there are things I'm whole life there are things I'm whole life there are things I'm interested in that that I felt as a interested in that that I felt as a interested in that that I felt as a moral compulsion and so you could think moral compulsion and so you could think moral compulsion and so you could think and I think the way you can think about and I think the way you can think about and I think the way you can think about it technically is it technically is it technically is that something pulls you forward so that that something pulls you forward so that that something pulls you forward so that you move ahead and you develop and then you move ahead and you develop and then you move ahead and you develop and then another voice this is a voice of another voice this is a voice of another voice this is a voice of negative emotion says while you're negative emotion says while you're negative emotion says while you're moving forward stay on this narrow moving forward stay on this narrow moving forward stay on this narrow pathway right and it'll Mark deviations pathway right and it'll Mark deviations pathway right and it'll Mark deviations and it marks deviations with shame and and it marks deviations with shame and and it marks deviations with shame and guilt and anxiety regret and that guilt and anxiety regret and that guilt and anxiety regret and that actually has a voice don't do that well actually has a voice don't do that well actually has a voice don't do that well why not well you're wandering off the why not well you're wandering off the why not well you're wandering off the straight narrow path so the Divine marks straight narrow path so the Divine marks straight narrow path so the Divine marks the path way forward and reveals it but the path way forward and reveals it but the path way forward and reveals it but then puts up the constraints of then puts up the constraints of then puts up the constraints of conscience and the Divine in the Old conscience and the Divine in the Old conscience and the Divine in the Old Testament is portrayed not least as the Testament is portrayed not least as the Testament is portrayed not least as the dynamic between calling and conscience dynamic between calling and conscience dynamic between calling and conscience what do you do with the negative what do you do with the negative what do you do with the negative emotions you didn't mention Envy there's emotions you didn't mention Envy there's emotions you didn't mention Envy there's some really dark ones that can really some really dark ones that can really some really dark ones that can really pull you into some bad places Envy fear pull you into some bad places Envy fear pull you into some bad places Envy fear yeah EnV is a really bad one pride and yeah EnV is a really bad one pride and yeah EnV is a really bad one pride and envy are among the worst those are the envy are among the worst those are the envy are among the worst those are the sins of Cain by the way in the story of sins of Cain by the way in the story of sins of Cain by the way in the story of Cain and Abel cuz Cain fails because his Cain and Abel cuz Cain fails because his Cain and Abel cuz Cain fails because his sacrifices are insufficient he doesn't sacrifices are insufficient he doesn't sacrifices are insufficient he doesn't offer his best and so he's rejected and offer his best and so he's rejected and offer his best and so he's rejected and that makes him bitter and unhappy and he that makes him bitter and unhappy and he that makes him bitter and unhappy and he goes to complain to God and God says to goes to complain to God and God says to goes to complain to God and God says to him some two things he said if God tells him some two things he said if God tells him some two things he said if God tells him if your sacrifices were appropriate

him if your sacrifices were appropriate him if your sacrifices were appropriate you'd be accepted it's a brutal thing you'd be accepted it's a brutal thing you'd be accepted it's a brutal thing it's a brutal rejoiner and he also says it's a brutal rejoiner and he also says it's a brutal rejoiner and he also says uh you can't blame your misery on your uh you can't blame your misery on your uh you can't blame your misery on your failure you could learn from your failure you could learn from your failure you could learn from your failure when you fail you invited in the failure when you fail you invited in the failure when you fail you invited in the spirit of envy and resentment and you spirit of envy and resentment and you spirit of envy and resentment and you allowed it to possess you and that's why allowed it to possess you and that's why allowed it to possess you and that's why you're miserable and so Cain is you're miserable and so Cain is you're miserable and so Cain is embittered by that response and that's embittered by that response and that's embittered by that response and that's when he kills Abel and so you might say when he kills Abel and so you might say when he kills Abel and so you might say well how do you fortify yourself against well how do you fortify yourself against well how do you fortify yourself against that pathway of resentment and part of that pathway of resentment and part of that pathway of resentment and part of classic religious classic religious classic religious practice is aimed to do that precisely practice is aimed to do that precisely practice is aimed to do that precisely what's the antithesis of envy what's the antithesis of envy what's the antithesis of envy gratitude that's something you can gratitude that's something you can gratitude that's something you can practice right and I mean literally practice right and I mean literally practice right and I mean literally practice I think Envy is one of the practice I think Envy is one of the practice I think Envy is one of the biggest enemies for a young person biggest enemies for a young person biggest enemies for a young person because basically you're starting from because basically you're starting from because basically you're starting from nowhere life is hard you've achieved nowhere life is hard you've achieved nowhere life is hard you've achieved nothing and you're striving and you're nothing and you're striving and you're nothing and you're striving and you're failing constantly because and you see failing constantly because and you see failing constantly because and you see other people whom you think aren't other people whom you think aren't other people whom you think aren't having the same problem yeah and they having the same problem yeah and they having the same problem yeah and they succeed and they could be your neighbor succeed and they could be your neighbor succeed and they could be your neighbor they could be succeeding by a little bit they could be succeeding by a little bit they could be succeeding by a little bit or somebody on the internet succeeding or somebody on the internet succeeding or somebody on the internet succeeding by a lot and I think that that can by a lot and I think that that can by a lot and I think that that can really pull a person down that kind of really pull a person down that kind of really pull a person down that kind of Envy can really destroy a person yeah Envy can really destroy a person yeah Envy can really destroy a person yeah yeah definitely well the Gratitude yeah definitely well the Gratitude yeah definitely well the Gratitude element would be something like well element would be something like well element would be something like well yeah you don't know anything and you're yeah you don't know anything and you're yeah you don't know anything and you're at the bottom but uh you're not at the bottom but uh you're not at the bottom but uh you're not 80h you know one of the best predictors 80h you know one of the best predictors 80h you know one of the best predictors of wealth in the United States is

age so then you might saywell who's got age so then you might saywell who's got it better it better it better the old rich guy or the young poor guy the old rich guy or the young poor guy the old rich guy or the young poor guy and I would say most old Rich guys would and I would say most old Rich guys would and I would say most old Rich guys would trade their wealth for youth so it's not trade their wealth for youth so it's not trade their wealth for youth so it's not exactly clear at all at any stage who's exactly clear at all at any stage who's exactly clear at all at any stage who's got the upper hand who's got the got the upper hand who's got the got the upper hand who's got the advantage and you know you could say advantage and you know you could say advantage and you know you could say well I've got all these burdens in front well I've got all these burdens in front well I've got all these burdens in front of me because I'm young and oh my God or of me because I'm young and oh my God or of me because I'm young and oh my God or you could you could you could say every dragon has its treasure and say every dragon has its treasure and say every dragon has its treasure and then that's actually a pattern of then that's actually a pattern of then that's actually a pattern of perception you know I'm not saying that perception you know I'm not saying that perception you know I'm not saying that people don't have their challenges they people don't have their challenges they people don't have their challenges they certainly do but certainly do but certainly do but discriminating between a challenge and discriminating between a challenge and discriminating between a challenge and an opportunity is very very difficult an opportunity is very very difficult an opportunity is very very difficult and learning to see a challenge as an and learning to see a challenge as an and learning to see a challenge as an opportunity that's the beginning of opportunity that's the beginning of opportunity that's the beginning of wisdom it's interesting I don't know how wisdom it's interesting I don't know how wisdom it's interesting I don't know how it works maybe you can elucidate but it works maybe you can elucidate but it works maybe you can elucidate but when you have Envy towards when you have Envy towards when you have Envy towards somebody if you just celebrate them so somebody if you just celebrate them so somebody if you just celebrate them so gratitude yeah but actually as opposed gratitude yeah but actually as opposed gratitude yeah but actually as opposed to sort of ignoring and being grateful to sort of ignoring and being grateful to sort of ignoring and being grateful for the things you have like literally for the things you have like literally for the things you have like literally celebrate that person it transforms it celebrate that person it transforms it celebrate that person it transforms it like it lights the way I don't know why like it lights the way I don't know why like it lights the way I don't know why that is exactly abely the only reason that is exactly abely the only reason that is exactly abely the only reason you're envious is because you see you're envious is because you see you're envious is because you see someone who has something that you someone who has something that you someone who has something that you want okay so let's think let's think want okay so let's think let's think want okay so let's think let's think about it well first of all the fact that about it well first of all the fact that about it well first of all the fact that they have it means that in principle you they have it means that in principle you they have it means that in principle you could get it at least someone has so could get it at least someone has so could get it at least someone has so that's a pretty good deal and then you that's a pretty good deal and then you that's a pretty good deal and then you might say well the fact that I'm envious might say well the fact that I'm envious might say well the fact that I'm envious of that person means that I actually of that person means that I actually of that person means that I actually want something and then you might think

want something and then you might think want something and then you might think well what am I envious of I'm envious of well what am I envious of I'm envious of well what am I envious of I'm envious of their attractiveness to women it's like their attractiveness to women it's like their attractiveness to women it's like okay well now you know something about okay well now you know something about okay well now you know something about yourself you know that one true yourself you know that one true yourself you know that one true motivation that's making itself manifest motivation that's making itself manifest motivation that's making itself manifest to you is that you wish that you would to you is that you wish that you would to you is that you wish that you would be the sort of person who is attractive be the sort of person who is attractive be the sort of person who is attractive to women now of of course that's an to women now of of course that's an to women now of of course that's an extremely common longing among men extremely common longing among men extremely common longing among men period but particularly among young men period but particularly among young men period but particularly among young men it's like well what makes you so sure it's like well what makes you so sure it's like well what makes you so sure you couldn't have that well how about you couldn't have that well how about you couldn't have that well how about here's an answer you don't have enough here's an answer you don't have enough here's an answer you don't have enough faith in yourself faith in yourself faith in yourself and maybe you don't have enough faith in and maybe you don't have enough faith in and maybe you don't have enough faith in well I would say the Divine you don't well I would say the Divine you don't well I would say the Divine you don't believe that the world is characterized believe that the world is characterized believe that the world is characterized by enough potentiality so that even by enough potentiality so that even by enough potentiality so that even miserable you has a crack at the brass miserable you has a crack at the brass miserable you has a crack at the brass ring and like I I I talked about this ring and like I I I talked about this ring and like I I I talked about this actually practically in one of my actually practically in one of my actually practically in one of my previous books because I wrote a chapter previous books because I wrote a chapter previous books because I wrote a chapter called uh compare yourself to who you called uh compare yourself to who you called uh compare yourself to who you are and not to someone else at the are and not to someone else at the are and not to someone else at the present time well why well your best present time well why well your best present time well why well your best Benchmark for tomorrow is you today and Benchmark for tomorrow is you today and Benchmark for tomorrow is you today and you might not be able to have what you might not be able to have what you might not be able to have what someone else has on the particular axis someone else has on the particular axis someone else has on the particular axis you're comparing yourself with them on you're comparing yourself with them on you're comparing yourself with them on but you could make an incremental but you could make an incremental but you could make an incremental improvement over your current state improvement over your current state improvement over your current state regardless of the direction that you're regardless of the direction that you're regardless of the direction that you're aiming and it is the case and this is a aiming and it is the case and this is a aiming and it is the case and this is a law the return on incremental law the return on incremental law the return on incremental Improvement is exponential or geometric Improvement is exponential or geometric Improvement is exponential or geometric and not linear so even if you start this and not linear so even if you start this and not linear so even if you start this is why the hero is always born in a low is why the hero is always born in a low is why the hero is always born in a low lowly place mythologically right Christ lowly place mythologically right Christ lowly place mythologically right Christ who redeemed seems the world is born in

who redeemed seems the world is born in who redeemed seems the world is born in a manger with the animals to a manger with the animals to a manger with the animals to poverty-stricken parents in the middle poverty-stricken parents in the middle poverty-stricken parents in the middle of a god-forsaken desert in a of a god-forsaken desert in a of a god-forsaken desert in a nondescript time and nondescript time and nondescript time and place isolated well why well because place isolated well why well because place isolated well why well because everyone everyone everyone young struggles with their insufficiency young struggles with their insufficiency young struggles with their insufficiency but that doesn't mean that great things but that doesn't mean that great things but that doesn't mean that great things can't make themselves manifest and part can't make themselves manifest and part can't make themselves manifest and part of the insistence in the biblical text of the insistence in the biblical text of the insistence in the biblical text for example is that it's incumbent on for example is that it's incumbent on for example is that it's incumbent on you to have the courage to have faith in you to have the courage to have faith in you to have the courage to have faith in in yourself and in the spirit of reality in yourself and in the spirit of reality in yourself and in the spirit of reality the essence of the essence of the essence of reality regardless of how you constr the reality regardless of how you constr the reality regardless of how you constr the evidence at hand right look at me I'm so evidence at hand right look at me I'm so evidence at hand right look at me I'm so useless I don't know anything I don't useless I don't know anything I don't useless I don't know anything I don't have anything it's hopeless I don't have have anything it's hopeless I don't have have anything it's hopeless I don't have it within me the world couldn't offer me it within me the world couldn't offer me it within me the world couldn't offer me that possibility well what the hell do that possibility well what the hell do that possibility well what the hell do you know about that this is what job you know about that this is what job you know about that this is what job figures out in the midst of his figures out in the midst of his figures out in the midst of his suffering in the Book of Job because job suffering in the Book of Job because job suffering in the Book of Job because job is tortured terribly by God who makes a is tortured terribly by God who makes a is tortured terribly by God who makes a bet with Satan himself to bring him down bet with Satan himself to bring him down bet with Satan himself to bring him down and job's decision in the face of his and job's decision in the face of his and job's decision in the face of his intense suffering is I'm not going to intense suffering is I'm not going to intense suffering is I'm not going to lose faith in my Essential goodness and lose faith in my Essential goodness and lose faith in my Essential goodness and I'm not going to lose faith in the I'm not going to lose faith in the I'm not going to lose faith in the essential goodness of being itself essential goodness of being itself essential goodness of being itself regardless of how terrible the face it's regardless of how terrible the face it's regardless of how terrible the face it's showing to me at the moment happens to showing to me at the moment happens to showing to me at the moment happens to be and I think be and I think be and I think okay what do you make of that claim well okay what do you make of that claim well okay what do you make of that claim well let's look at it practically you're let's look at it practically you're let's look at it practically you're being tortured by the arbitrariness of being tortured by the arbitrariness of being tortured by the arbitrariness of life that's horrible now you lose faith

life that's horrible now you lose faith life that's horrible now you lose faith in yourself and you become cynical about in yourself and you become cynical about in yourself and you become cynical about being so are you infinitely worse off being so are you infinitely worse off being so are you infinitely worse off instantly and then you might say well instantly and then you might say well instantly and then you might say well yeah but it's really asking a lot of yeah but it's really asking a lot of yeah but it's really asking a lot of people that they maintain Faith even people that they maintain Faith even people that they maintain Faith even well even in their Darkest Hours it's well even in their Darkest Hours it's well even in their Darkest Hours it's like yeah that's that might be asking like yeah that's that might be asking like yeah that's that might be asking everything from people but then you also everything from people but then you also everything from people but then you also might ask this is a very strange might ask this is a very strange might ask this is a very strange question question question is if you were brought into being by is if you were brought into being by is if you were brought into being by something that was essentially good something that was essentially good something that was essentially good wouldn't that thing that brought you wouldn't that thing that brought you wouldn't that thing that brought you into being demand that you make the best into being demand that you make the best into being demand that you make the best in yourself manifest and wouldn't it be in yourself manifest and wouldn't it be in yourself manifest and wouldn't it be precisely when you most need that that precisely when you most need that that precisely when you most need that that it would be that you'd be desperate it would be that you'd be desperate it would be that you'd be desperate enough to risk what it would take to let enough to risk what it would take to let enough to risk what it would take to let it emerge so you kind of make it seem it emerge so you kind of make it seem it emerge so you kind of make it seem that reason could be the thing that that reason could be the thing that that reason could be the thing that takes you out of a place of Darkness takes you out of a place of Darkness takes you out of a place of Darkness sort of find finding that calling sort of find finding that calling sort of find finding that calling through reason I think it's also through reason I think it's also through reason I think it's also possible when reason fails you to just possible when reason fails you to just possible when reason fails you to just take the leap navigate not by reason but take the leap navigate not by reason but take the leap navigate not by reason but by finding the thing that scares you the by finding the thing that scares you the by finding the thing that scares you the risk to take the risk take the leap and risk to take the risk take the leap and risk to take the risk take the leap and then figure it out while you're in the then figure it out while you're in the then figure it out while you're in the air yeah well I that I think that's air yeah well I that I think that's air yeah well I that I think that's always part of a heroic Adventure you always part of a heroic Adventure you always part of a heroic Adventure you know is that ability to cut the gordian know is that ability to cut the gordian know is that ability to cut the gordian knot but but you could also ask from an knot but but you could also ask from an knot but but you could also ask from an engineering perspective okay what are engineering perspective okay what are engineering perspective okay what are the axioms that make it decision like the axioms that make it decision like the axioms that make it decision like that possible and the answer would be that possible and the answer would be that possible and the answer would be something like I'm going to make the

something like I'm going to make the something like I'm going to make the presumption that if I move forward in presumption that if I move forward in presumption that if I move forward in good faith whatever happens to me will good faith whatever happens to me will good faith whatever happens to me will be the best thing that could possibly be the best thing that could possibly be the best thing that could possibly happen no matter what it is and I think happen no matter what it is and I think happen no matter what it is and I think I think that's actually how you make an I think that's actually how you make an I think that's actually how you make an alliance with truth and I I also think alliance with truth and I I also think alliance with truth and I I also think that truth is an adventure and the way that truth is an adventure and the way that truth is an adventure and the way you make an alliance with truth is by you make an alliance with truth is by you make an alliance with truth is by assuming that whatever happens to you if assuming that whatever happens to you if assuming that whatever happens to you if you're living in truth is the best thing you're living in truth is the best thing you're living in truth is the best thing that Could Happen even if you can't see that Could Happen even if you can't see that Could Happen even if you can't see that at any given moment because that at any given moment because that at any given moment because otherwise you'd say that truth would be otherwise you'd say that truth would be otherwise you'd say that truth would be just the handmaiden of Advantage well just the handmaiden of Advantage well just the handmaiden of Advantage well I'm going to say something truthful and I'm going to say something truthful and I'm going to say something truthful and I pay a price well that means I I pay a price well that means I I pay a price well that means I shouldn't have said it well that shouldn't have said it well that shouldn't have said it well that possibly but that's not the only possibly but that's not the only possibly but that's not the only possible standard of evaluation you can possible standard of evaluation you can possible standard of evaluation you can because what you're doing is you're because what you're doing is you're because what you're doing is you're making the outcome your deity right well making the outcome your deity right well making the outcome your deity right well I just reverse that and say no no truth I just reverse that and say no no truth I just reverse that and say no no truth is the deity the outcome is variable but is the deity the outcome is variable but is the deity the outcome is variable but that doesn't eradicate the initial axium that doesn't eradicate the initial axium that doesn't eradicate the initial axium where's the where's the where's the constant right where's what's the constant right where's what's the constant right where's what's the constant he constant he constant he maybe uh when you said uh Abraham was maybe uh when you said uh Abraham was maybe uh when you said uh Abraham was being fed by naked ladies that's an being fed by naked ladies that's an being fed by naked ladies that's an interpolation obviously but would have interpolation obviously but would have interpolation obviously but would have been out of keeping for the times but it been out of keeping for the times but it been out of keeping for the times but it does make me think sort of in stark does make me think sort of in stark does make me think sort of in stark contrast to n's own life that perhaps contrast to n's own life that perhaps contrast to n's own life that perhaps getting laid early on in life as a getting laid early on in life as a getting laid early on in life as a useful starter useful starter useful starter uh step one get laid and then go for uh step one get laid and then go for uh step one get laid and then go for adventure there's some basic satiation

adventure there's some basic satiation adventure there's some basic satiation of Des I think it's perfectly reasonable of Des I think it's perfectly reasonable of Des I think it's perfectly reasonable to bring the sexual element in because to bring the sexual element in because to bring the sexual element in because it's a powerful motivating force and it it's a powerful motivating force and it it's a powerful motivating force and it has to be integrated I don't think it's has to be integrated I don't think it's has to be integrated I don't think it's adventure it's romantic adventure right adventure it's romantic adventure right adventure it's romantic adventure right right but the the lack of basic right but the the lack of basic right but the the lack of basic interaction sexual interaction I feel interaction sexual interaction I feel interaction sexual interaction I feel like is the engine that drives towards like is the engine that drives towards like is the engine that drives towards that cynicism of the inel that cynicism of the inel that cynicism of the inel there there's there's there's very there there's there's there's very there there's there's there's very little doubt about that we know little doubt about that we know little doubt about that we know perfectly well anthropologically that perfectly well anthropologically that perfectly well anthropologically that the most unstable social situation you the most unstable social situation you the most unstable social situation you can generate is young men with no access can generate is young men with no access can generate is young men with no access to women that's not good and they'll do to women that's not good and they'll do to women that's not good and they'll do anything anything to reverse that anything anything to reverse that anything anything to reverse that situation so that's very dangerous but situation so that's very dangerous but situation so that's very dangerous but then I would also then I would also then I would also say there's every suggestion that the say there's every suggestion that the say there's every suggestion that the pathway of Adventure itself is the best pathway of Adventure itself is the best pathway of Adventure itself is the best Pathway to romantic attractiveness and Pathway to romantic attractiveness and Pathway to romantic attractiveness and we we know this in some ways in a very we we know this in some ways in a very we we know this in some ways in a very blunt manner the Google boys the blunt manner the Google boys the blunt manner the Google boys the engineers who are too what would you say engineers who are too what would you say engineers who are too what would you say naively oriented towards empirical truth naively oriented towards empirical truth naively oriented towards empirical truth to note when they're being Politically to note when they're being Politically to note when they're being Politically Incorrect they wrote a great book called Incorrect they wrote a great book called Incorrect they wrote a great book called a billion Wicked thoughts which I really a billion Wicked thoughts which I really a billion Wicked thoughts which I really like it's a very good book and like it's a very good book and like it's a very good book and it's Engineers as it's Engineers as it's Engineers as psychologists and so they'll say all psychologists and so they'll say all psychologists and so they'll say all sorts of things that no one with any sorts of things that no one with any sorts of things that no one with any sense would ever say that happen to be sense would ever say that happen to be sense would ever say that happen to be true and they studied the pattern of true and they studied the pattern of true and they studied the pattern of pornographic fantasy and women like porn pornographic fantasy and women like porn pornographic fantasy and women like porn graphic stories not images so women's graphic stories not images so women's graphic stories not images so women's use of pornographic pornography is use of pornographic pornography is use of pornographic pornography is literary who are the main protagonists

literary who are the main protagonists literary who are the main protagonists in female pornographic in female pornographic in female pornographic fantasy Pirates werewolves vampires fantasy Pirates werewolves vampires fantasy Pirates werewolves vampires surgeons billionaires Tony Stark you surgeons billionaires Tony Stark you surgeons billionaires Tony Stark you know yeah and so the basic pornographic know yeah and so the basic pornographic know yeah and so the basic pornographic narrative is Beauty and the Beast those narrative is Beauty and the Beast those narrative is Beauty and the Beast those five categories terrible aggressive male five categories terrible aggressive male five categories terrible aggressive male tameable by the right relationship hot tameable by the right relationship hot tameable by the right relationship hot erotic attra action and so I would say erotic attra action and so I would say erotic attra action and so I would say to the young men who and I have many to the young men who and I have many to the young men who and I have many times to the young men who are locked in times to the young men who are locked in times to the young men who are locked in isolation it's first of all join the isolation it's first of all join the isolation it's first of all join the bloody Club because the default value of bloody Club because the default value of bloody Club because the default value of a 15-year-old male on the mating Market a 15-year-old male on the mating Market a 15-year-old male on the mating Market is zero and there's reason for that you is zero and there's reason for that you is zero and there's reason for that you know and zero is a bit of an know and zero is a bit of an know and zero is a bit of an exaggeration but not much and the reason exaggeration but not much and the reason exaggeration but not much and the reason for that is well what the hell do you for that is well what the hell do you for that is well what the hell do you know like you're not good for anything know like you're not good for anything know like you're not good for anything you you have potential and maybe plenty you you have potential and maybe plenty you you have potential and maybe plenty and hopefully that'll be made manifest and hopefully that'll be made manifest and hopefully that'll be made manifest but you shouldn't be all upset because but you shouldn't be all upset because but you shouldn't be all upset because you're the same loser as everyone else you're the same loser as everyone else you're the same loser as everyone else your age has always been since the your age has always been since the your age has always been since the beginning of time but then you might ask beginning of time but then you might ask beginning of time but then you might ask well what should I do about it the well what should I do about it the well what should I do about it the answer is get yourself together you know answer is get yourself together you know answer is get yourself together you know stand up straight with your shoulders stand up straight with your shoulders stand up straight with your shoulders back take on some Adventure find your back take on some Adventure find your back take on some Adventure find your calling abide by your conscience put calling abide by your conscience put calling abide by your conscience put yourself together and you'll become yourself together and you'll become yourself together and you'll become attractive and we know this is look we attractive and we know this is look we attractive and we know this is look we know this is true the correlation know this is true the correlation know this is true the correlation between male sexual between male sexual between male sexual opportunity and relative masculine opportunity and relative masculine opportunity and relative masculine status is about 6 that's higher than the status is about 6 that's higher than the status is about 6 that's higher than the correlation between intelligence and

correlation between intelligence and correlation between intelligence and academic achievement I don't think that academic achievement I don't think that academic achievement I don't think that there's a larger correlation between two there's a larger correlation between two there's a larger correlation between two independent phenomena in the entire independent phenomena in the entire independent phenomena in the entire social science and health literature social science and health literature social science and health literature than the correlation between relative than the correlation between relative than the correlation between relative male social status and reproductive male social status and reproductive male social status and reproductive success it's by far the most fundamental success it's by far the most fundamental success it's by far the most fundamental determinant but what's the cause and determinant but what's the cause and determinant but what's the cause and effect there it's a loop men are effect there it's a loop men are effect there it's a loop men are motivated to attain social status motivated to attain social status motivated to attain social status because it confers upon them because it confers upon them because it confers upon them reproductive success and that's not only reproductive success and that's not only reproductive success and that's not only cognitively but biologically I'll give cognitively but biologically I'll give cognitively but biologically I'll give you an example of this there's a you an example of this there's a you an example of this there's a documentary I watch from time to time documentary I watch from time to time documentary I watch from time to time which I think is the most brilliant which I think is the most brilliant which I think is the most brilliant documentary I've ever seen it's called documentary I've ever seen it's called documentary I've ever seen it's called crumb and it's the story of this crumb and it's the story of this crumb and it's the story of this underground cartoonist Robert Crum who underground cartoonist Robert Crum who underground cartoonist Robert Crum who was in high school was in the category was in high school was in the category was in high school was in the category of of of males for whom a date was not only not males for whom a date was not only not males for whom a date was not only not likely but in likely but in likely but in unimaginable so he was at the bottom of unimaginable so he was at the bottom of unimaginable so he was at the bottom of the Bottom Rung and almost all the the Bottom Rung and almost all the the Bottom Rung and almost all the reactions he got from females weren't reactions he got from females weren't reactions he got from females weren't wasn't just no it was like are you out wasn't just no it was like are you out wasn't just no it was like are you out of your mind like with that contempt of your mind like with that contempt of your mind like with that contempt right and then he became successful and right and then he became successful and right and then he became successful and so the documentary is super interesting so the documentary is super interesting so the documentary is super interesting because it tracks the utter pathology of because it tracks the utter pathology of because it tracks the utter pathology of his sexual fantasies because he was his sexual fantasies because he was his sexual fantasies because he was bitter and resentful and if you want to bitter and resentful and if you want to bitter and resentful and if you want to understand the psychology of Serial understand the psychology of Serial understand the psychology of Serial sexual killer and the like and you watch sexual killer and the like and you watch sexual killer and the like and you watch crumb you'll know find out a lot more crumb you'll know find out a lot more crumb you'll know find out a lot more about that than anybody with any sense about that than anybody with any sense about that than anybody with any sense would want to know but then he makes would want to know but then he makes would want to know but then he makes this transition and partly because he this transition and partly because he this transition and partly because he does take the heroic Adventure path and

does take the heroic Adventure path and does take the heroic Adventure path and he actually has a family and a and he actually has a family and a and he actually has a family and a and children and he he's actually a pretty children and he he's actually a pretty children and he he's actually a pretty functional person as opposed to his functional person as opposed to his functional person as opposed to his brothers one of whom commits suicide and brothers one of whom commits suicide and brothers one of whom commits suicide and one of whom is literally a repeat sexual one of whom is literally a repeat sexual one of whom is literally a repeat sexual offender it's a brutal documentary but offender it's a brutal documentary but offender it's a brutal documentary but he what he did in his adolescence after he what he did in his adolescence after he what he did in his adolescence after being rejected was he found what he was being rejected was he found what he was being rejected was he found what he was interested he was a very good artist he interested he was a very good artist he interested he was a very good artist he was very interested in music and he was very interested in music and he was very interested in music and he started to pursue those sort of started to pursue those sort of started to pursue those sort of single-mindedly and he became successful single-mindedly and he became successful single-mindedly and he became successful and as soon as he became successful and and as soon as he became successful and and as soon as he became successful and the documentary tracks this beautifully the documentary tracks this beautifully the documentary tracks this beautifully he's immediately attractive to women and he's immediately attractive to women and he's immediately attractive to women and and then you might ask too even if and then you might ask too even if and then you might ask too even if you're cynical like well why do women you're cynical like well why do women you're cynical like well why do women why do I have to perform for women and why do I have to perform for women and why do I have to perform for women and the answer to that is something like why the answer to that is something like why the answer to that is something like why the hell should they have anything to do the hell should they have anything to do the hell should they have anything to do with you if you're useless they're going with you if you're useless they're going with you if you're useless they're going to have infants they don't need another to have infants they don't need another to have infants they don't need another one right partly the reason that women one right partly the reason that women one right partly the reason that women are hypergamous L they want males who are hypergamous L they want males who are hypergamous L they want males who are of higher status than they are is are of higher status than they are is are of higher status than they are is because they're trying to redress the because they're trying to redress the because they're trying to redress the reproductive burden and it's substantial reproductive burden and it's substantial reproductive burden and it's substantial I mean the female of any species is the I mean the female of any species is the I mean the female of any species is the sex that devotes more to the sex that devotes more to the sex that devotes more to the reproductive function that's a more reproductive function that's a more reproductive function that's a more fundamental differ definition than fundamental differ definition than fundamental differ definition than chromosomal differentiation and that's chromosomal differentiation and that's chromosomal differentiation and that's taken to its ultimate extreme with with taken to its ultimate extreme with with taken to its ultimate extreme with with humans and so of course women are going humans and so of course women are going humans and so of course women are going to want someone around that's useful to want someone around that's useful to want someone around that's useful because the cost of sex for them is an because the cost of sex for them is an because the cost of sex for them is an eight 18yearold period of dependency eight 18yearold period of dependency eight 18yearold period of dependency with an infant so so so I think the with an infant so so so I think the with an infant so so so I think the adventure comes first heroic adventure adventure comes first heroic adventure adventure comes first heroic adventure comes first well it's complex because comes first well it's complex because comes first well it's complex because the other problem let's say with the

the other problem let's say with the the other problem let's say with the Crum boys is that their mother was Crum boys is that their mother was Crum boys is that their mother was extremely pathological and they didn't extremely pathological and they didn't extremely pathological and they didn't get a lot of genuine feminine nurturance get a lot of genuine feminine nurturance get a lot of genuine feminine nurturance and affection oh of course but the and affection oh of course but the and affection oh of course but the family and Society are not going to help family and Society are not going to help family and Society are not going to help you most of the time with a heroic you most of the time with a heroic you most of the time with a heroic Adventure right they're going to be a Adventure right they're going to be a Adventure right they're going to be a barrier versus a in good families barrier versus a in good families barrier versus a in good families they're both because because they put up they're both because because they put up they're both because because they put up constraints on your behavior but they constraints on your behavior but they constraints on your behavior but they like I've interviewed a lot of like I've interviewed a lot of like I've interviewed a lot of successful people about their calling successful people about their calling successful people about their calling let's say because that's I do that with let's say because that's I do that with let's say because that's I do that with all my podcast guests how how did the all my podcast guests how how did the all my podcast guests how how did the path that you took to success make path that you took to success make path that you took to success make itself manifest and it's it's very the itself manifest and it's it's very the itself manifest and it's it's very the pattern's very typical almost all the pattern's very typical almost all the pattern's very typical almost all the people that I've interviewed had a people that I've interviewed had a people that I've interviewed had a mother and a father now it's not mother and a father now it's not mother and a father now it's not invariant but I'd say it's there 99% of invariant but I'd say it's there 99% of invariant but I'd say it's there 99% of the time it's really high and both of the time it's really high and both of the time it's really high and both of the parents or at least one of them but the parents or at least one of them but the parents or at least one of them but often both were very encouraging of the often both were very encouraging of the often both were very encouraging of the person's interests and Pathway to person's interests and Pathway to person's interests and Pathway to development that's fascinating i' I've development that's fascinating i' I've development that's fascinating i' I've heard you analyze it that way before and heard you analyze it that way before and heard you analyze it that way before and I I had a reaction to that idea because I I had a reaction to that idea because I I had a reaction to that idea because you focus on the positive of the parents you focus on the positive of the parents you focus on the positive of the parents yeah I feel like it was the maybe I I yeah I feel like it was the maybe I I yeah I feel like it was the maybe I I see biographies differently but it feels see biographies differently but it feels see biographies differently but it feels like the struggle within the family was like the struggle within the family was like the struggle within the family was the Catalyst for greatness in in in a the Catalyst for greatness in in in a the Catalyst for greatness in in in a lot of biography lot of biography lot of biography maybe I'm misinterpreting it but I I maybe I'm misinterpreting it but I I maybe I'm misinterpreting it but I I don't think you I think that that's a don't think you I think that that's a don't think you I think that that's a reflection maybe correct me if I'm wrong reflection maybe correct me if I'm wrong reflection maybe correct me if I'm wrong I think that's a reflection of that I think that's a reflection of that I think that's a reflection of that dynamic between positive and negative dynamic between positive and negative dynamic between positive and negative emotion like my son for example who's

emotion like my son for example who's emotion like my son for example who's doing just fine um he's firing on all doing just fine um he's firing on all doing just fine um he's firing on all cylinders as far as I'm concerned he has cylinders as far as I'm concerned he has cylinders as far as I'm concerned he has a nice family he gets along with his a nice family he gets along with his a nice family he gets along with his wife he's a really good musician he's wife he's a really good musician he's wife he's a really good musician he's got a company he's running well um he's got a company he's running well um he's got a company he's running well um he's he's a delight to be around he was a he's a delight to be around he was a he's a delight to be around he was a relatively disagreeable infant he was relatively disagreeable infant he was relatively disagreeable infant he was tough-minded and so and he he didn't tough-minded and so and he he didn't tough-minded and so and he he didn't take no for an answer and so there was take no for an answer and so there was take no for an answer and so there was some tussle in regulating his behavior some tussle in regulating his behavior some tussle in regulating his behavior he spent a lot of time when he was two he spent a lot of time when he was two he spent a lot of time when he was two sitting on the steps trying to get his sitting on the steps trying to get his sitting on the steps trying to get his act together and so that was the act together and so that was the act together and so that was the constraint and and but that wasn't that constraint and and but that wasn't that constraint and and but that wasn't that wasn't something that was it's an wasn't something that was it's an wasn't something that was it's an opposition to him away because it was in opposition to him away because it was in opposition to him away because it was in opposition to the immediate opposition to the immediate opposition to the immediate manifestation of his hedonistic desires manifestation of his hedonistic desires manifestation of his hedonistic desires but it was also an imp to further but it was also an imp to further but it was also an imp to further development me the rule for me when he development me the rule for me when he development me the rule for me when he was on the stairs was as soon as you're was on the stairs was as soon as you're was on the stairs was as soon as you're willing to be a civilized human being willing to be a civilized human being willing to be a civilized human being you can get off the stairs and you might you can get off the stairs and you might you can get off the stairs and you might think well that's nothing but arbitrary think well that's nothing but arbitrary think well that's nothing but arbitrary super ego patriarchal oppressive super ego patriarchal oppressive super ego patriarchal oppressive constraint or you could say well no what constraint or you could say well no what constraint or you could say well no what I'm actually doing is facilitating his I'm actually doing is facilitating his I'm actually doing is facilitating his cortical maturation because when a child cortical maturation because when a child cortical maturation because when a child misbehaves it's usually because they're misbehaves it's usually because they're misbehaves it's usually because they're under the domination of some primordial under the domination of some primordial under the domination of some primordial emotional or motivational impulse emotional or motivational impulse emotional or motivational impulse they're angry they're over enthusiastic they're angry they're over enthusiastic they're angry they're over enthusiastic they're they're upset um they're selfish they're they're upset um they're selfish they're they're upset um they're selfish like it's narrow like it's narrow like it's narrow self-centeredness expressed in a self-centeredness expressed in a self-centeredness expressed in a immature manner but see okay uh tell me immature manner but see okay uh tell me immature manner but see okay uh tell me if I'm wrong but it feels like the

if I'm wrong but it feels like the if I'm wrong but it feels like the engine of greatness at least on the male engine of greatness at least on the male engine of greatness at least on the male side of things has often been trying to side of things has often been trying to side of things has often been trying to prove the father wrong or trying to gain prove the father wrong or trying to gain prove the father wrong or trying to gain the acceptance of the father so that the acceptance of the father so that the acceptance of the father so that tension where the parent is not tension where the parent is not tension where the parent is not encouraging like you mentioned but is encouraging like you mentioned but is encouraging like you mentioned but is basically basically basically saying no you you won't be able to do saying no you you won't be able to do saying no you you won't be able to do this okay so my observation as a this okay so my observation as a this okay so my observation as a psychologist has been that it's very psychologist has been that it's very psychologist has been that it's very very difficult for someone to get their very difficult for someone to get their very difficult for someone to get their act together unless they have at least act together unless they have at least act together unless they have at least one figure in their life that's one figure in their life that's one figure in their life that's encouraging and show shows them the encouraging and show shows them the encouraging and show shows them the pathway forward so so you can have a lot pathway forward so so you can have a lot pathway forward so so you can have a lot of adversity in your life and if you of adversity in your life and if you of adversity in your life and if you have one person around who's a good have one person around who's a good have one person around who's a good model and you're neurologically intact model and you're neurologically intact model and you're neurologically intact you can latch onto that model now you you can latch onto that model now you you can latch onto that model now you can also find that model in books and can also find that model in books and can also find that model in books and people do that sometimes like I've people do that sometimes like I've people do that sometimes like I've interviewed people who had pretty frag interviewed people who had pretty frag interviewed people who had pretty frag fragmented childhoods who turned to fragmented childhoods who turned to fragmented childhoods who turned to books and found the pattern that guided books and found the pattern that guided books and found the pattern that guided them in like let's say the the The them in like let's say the the The them in like let's say the the The Adventures of the heroes of the past Adventures of the heroes of the past Adventures of the heroes of the past because that's a good way of thinking because that's a good way of thinking because that's a good way of thinking about it and I read a a book called about it and I read a a book called about it and I read a a book called Angela's Ashes that was written by an Angela's Ashes that was written by an Angela's Ashes that was written by an Irish author Frank mccort fantastic book Irish author Frank mccort fantastic book Irish author Frank mccort fantastic book beautiful book and his father was an beautiful book and his father was an beautiful book and his father was an alcoholic of gargantuan proportions he alcoholic of gargantuan proportions he alcoholic of gargantuan proportions he just an an Irish drinker who drank every just an an Irish drinker who drank every just an an Irish drinker who drank every scent that came into the family and many scent that came into the family and many scent that came into the family and many of whose children died in poverty and of whose children died in poverty and of whose children died in poverty and what Frank what Frank what Frank did as a testament to the human spirit did as a testament to the human spirit did as a testament to the human spirit is he sort of divided his father is he sort of divided his father is he sort of divided his father conceptually into two elements there was

conceptually into two elements there was conceptually into two elements there was sober morning Father who was encouraging sober morning Father who was encouraging sober morning Father who was encouraging and with whom he had a relationship and and with whom he had a relationship and and with whom he had a relationship and then there was drunk and useless later then there was drunk and useless later then there was drunk and useless later afternoon and evening father and afternoon and evening father and afternoon and evening father and he rejected the negative and he he rejected the negative and he he rejected the negative and he Amplified his relationship with the Amplified his relationship with the Amplified his relationship with the Positive now like he had other he had Positive now like he had other he had Positive now like he had other he had other things going for him but he you other things going for him but he you other things going for him but he you know he did a very good job of know he did a very good job of know he did a very good job of discriminating and and I mean partly the discriminating and and I mean partly the discriminating and and I mean partly the question that question that question that you're raising is to what degree is it you're raising is to what degree is it you're raising is to what degree is it useful to have a beneficial useful to have a beneficial useful to have a beneficial adversary yeah and I mean struggle-free adversary yeah and I mean struggle-free adversary yeah and I mean struggle-free progress is not possible and I think progress is not possible and I think progress is not possible and I think there are situations under which where there are situations under which where there are situations under which where you know you might be motivated to prove you know you might be motivated to prove you know you might be motivated to prove someone in someone in someone in your immediate circle wrong but then your immediate circle wrong but then your immediate circle wrong but then that also implies that at some level for that also implies that at some level for that also implies that at some level for some reason you actually care about some reason you actually care about some reason you actually care about their judgment you know you just didn't their judgment you know you just didn't their judgment you know you just didn't write them off completely well I mean write them off completely well I mean write them off completely well I mean that's why I say there's an archetype of that's why I say there's an archetype of that's why I say there's an archetype of a young man trying to gain the a young man trying to gain the a young man trying to gain the approval of his father and I think that approval of his father and I think that approval of his father and I think that repeats itself in a bunch of biographies repeats itself in a bunch of biographies repeats itself in a bunch of biographies that I've read I don't know there must that I've read I don't know there must that I've read I don't know there must have been an engine somewhere that they have been an engine somewhere that they have been an engine somewhere that they found of approval of uh encouragement found of approval of uh encouragement found of approval of uh encouragement maybe in books maybe in the mother or maybe in books maybe in the mother or maybe in books maybe in the mother or maybe the the role of the parents has maybe the the role of the parents has maybe the the role of the parents has flipped well my my father was hard to flipped well my my father was hard to flipped well my my father was hard to please very did you ever succeed yes but

please very did you ever succeed yes but please very did you ever succeed yes but it wasn't easy ever when when was the it wasn't easy ever when when was the it wasn't easy ever when when was the moment when you uh moment when you uh moment when you uh succeeded late pretty late like 40 maybe succeeded late pretty late like 40 maybe succeeded late pretty late like 40 maybe later was it uh gradual or a definitive later was it uh gradual or a definitive later was it uh gradual or a definitive moment when a shift moment when a shift moment when a shift happened my father always was always happened my father always was always happened my father always was always willing to approve of the things I did willing to approve of the things I did willing to approve of the things I did that were good although he was not that were good although he was not that were good although he was not effusive by any stretch of the effusive by any stretch of the effusive by any stretch of the imagination and the standards were very imagination and the standards were very imagination and the standards were very high now I was probably fortunate for me high now I was probably fortunate for me high now I was probably fortunate for me you know and and I it does bear on the you know and and I it does bear on the you know and and I it does bear on the question you're asking is like if you question you're asking is like if you question you're asking is like if you want someone to motivate you optimally want someone to motivate you optimally want someone to motivate you optimally God it's complicated because there has God it's complicated because there has God it's complicated because there has to be a tempor mental dance between the to be a tempor mental dance between the to be a tempor mental dance between the two people two people two people like what you really want is for someone like what you really want is for someone like what you really want is for someone to apply the highest possible standards to apply the highest possible standards to apply the highest possible standards to you that you're capable of to you that you're capable of to you that you're capable of reaching right and that's a that's a reaching right and that's a that's a reaching right and that's a that's a that's a vicious dance because you have that's a vicious dance because you have that's a vicious dance because you have to have a relationship with your child to have a relationship with your child to have a relationship with your child to do that properly you know because you to do that properly you know because you to do that properly you know because you want to if you want to be optimally want to if you want to be optimally want to if you want to be optimally motivating as a father you keep your motivating as a father you keep your motivating as a father you keep your children on the edge it's children on the edge it's children on the edge it's like you might not reward something your like you might not reward something your like you might not reward something your child that you would think would be good child that you would think would be good child that you would think would be good in someone else because you think they in someone else because you think they in someone else because you think they could do better and so my father was could do better and so my father was could do better and so my father was pretty clear about the idea that he pretty clear about the idea that he pretty clear about the idea that he always expected me to do better and was always expected me to do better and was always expected me to do better and was that Troublesome it was like I felt that Troublesome it was like I felt that Troublesome it was like I felt often when I was young that there was no

often when I was young that there was no often when I was young that there was no pleasing him but I also knew that that pleasing him but I also knew that that pleasing him but I also knew that that wasn't I knew that that wasn't right see wasn't I knew that that wasn't right see wasn't I knew that that wasn't right see I actually knew that wasn't right I actually knew that wasn't right I actually knew that wasn't right because I could remember especially I because I could remember especially I because I could remember especially I think when I was very young that I did think when I was very young that I did think when I was very young that I did things that he was pleased about I knew things that he was pleased about I knew things that he was pleased about I knew that was possible so it wasn't it that was possible so it wasn't it that was possible so it wasn't it wasn't unpredictable and arbitrary it wasn't unpredictable and arbitrary it wasn't unpredictable and arbitrary it was just difficult it sounds like he's was just difficult it sounds like he's was just difficult it sounds like he's hit a pretty good hit a pretty good hit a pretty good optimal but it's uh for each individual optimal but it's uh for each individual optimal but it's uh for each individual human that optimal differs well that's human that optimal differs well that's human that optimal differs well that's why you have to have a relationship with why you have to have a relationship with why you have to have a relationship with your children you have to know them and your children you have to know them and your children you have to know them and and well with yourself too and and with and well with yourself too and and with and well with yourself too and and with your wife your wife your wife you you you can't hit that you you you can't hit that you you you can't hit that optimal that optimal is probably optimal that optimal is probably optimal that optimal is probably love that's because love isn't just love that's because love isn't just love that's because love isn't just acceptance love is acceptance and acceptance love is acceptance and acceptance love is acceptance and encouragement and it's not just that encouragement and it's not just that encouragement and it's not just that either it's also no don't do that that's either it's also no don't do that that's either it's also no don't do that that's beneath you you're capable of more and beneath you you're capable of more and beneath you you're capable of more and how harsh should that be it's like how harsh should that be it's like how harsh should that be it's like that's a really hard question you know that's a really hard question you know that's a really hard question you know like if you really love someone you're like if you really love someone you're like if you really love someone you're not going to put up with their stupidity not going to put up with their stupidity not going to put up with their stupidity don't do that you know one of the rules don't do that you know one of the rules don't do that you know one of the rules I had with my little kids was don't do I had with my little kids was don't do I had with my little kids was don't do anything that makes you look like an anything that makes you look like an anything that makes you look like an idiot in public why cuz I don't want you idiot in public why cuz I don't want you idiot in public why cuz I don't want you disgracing yourself why not cuz I like disgracing yourself why not cuz I like disgracing yourself why not cuz I like you I think you're great and you're not you I think you're great and you're not you I think you're great and you're not going to act like a bloody fool in going to act like a bloody fool in going to act like a bloody fool in public so that people get the wrong idea public so that people get the wrong idea public so that people get the wrong idea about you no what about inside a about you no what about inside a about you no what about inside a relationship how a successful

relationship how a successful relationship how a successful relationship is how much challenge how relationship is how much challenge how relationship is how much challenge how much much much peace is a successful relationship one peace is a successful relationship one peace is a successful relationship one that is that is that is easy one that is easy one that is easy one that is challenging I would say to some degree challenging I would say to some degree challenging I would say to some degree that depends on your temperament my wife that depends on your temperament my wife that depends on your temperament my wife is quite a provocative is quite a provocative is quite a provocative person and there are times when I I person and there are times when I I person and there are times when I I suppose do I wish that there are times suppose do I wish that there are times suppose do I wish that there are times when I casually wish that she was easier when I casually wish that she was easier when I casually wish that she was easier to get along with but as soon as I think to get along with but as soon as I think to get along with but as soon as I think about it I I don't I don't think that about it I I don't I don't think that about it I I don't I don't think that yeah cuz i' I've always liked her we yeah cuz i' I've always liked her we yeah cuz i' I've always liked her we were friends ever since we were little were friends ever since we were little were friends ever since we were little kids and she's she plays rough and I kids and she's she plays rough and I kids and she's she plays rough and I like that as it turns out now that like that as it turns out now that like that as it turns out now that doesn't mean it isn't a pain from time doesn't mean it isn't a pain from time doesn't mean it isn't a pain from time to time but you know and that is going to time but you know and that is going to time but you know and that is going to be a temperamental issue to some to be a temperamental issue to some to be a temperamental issue to some degree and and an issue of negotiation degree and and an issue of negotiation degree and and an issue of negotiation like she plays rough but fair and the like she plays rough but fair and the like she plays rough but fair and the fair part has been establishing that fair part has been establishing that fair part has been establishing that it's been part of our ongoing it's been part of our ongoing it's been part of our ongoing negotiation and part of it is in the negotiation and part of it is in the negotiation and part of it is in the play you get to find out about yourself play you get to find out about yourself play you get to find out about yourself or what your temperament is cuz I don't or what your temperament is cuz I don't or what your temperament is cuz I don't think that that's clear until it's think that that's clear until it's think that that's clear until it's tested oh definitely not definitely not tested oh definitely not definitely not tested oh definitely not definitely not you find out all all sorts of things you find out all all sorts of things you find out all all sorts of things about yourself in a relationship that's about yourself in a relationship that's about yourself in a relationship that's for sure well and partly the reason that for sure well and partly the reason that for sure well and partly the reason that there is provocativeness especially from there is provocativeness especially from there is provocativeness especially from women in relationship to men is they women in relationship to men is they women in relationship to men is they want to test them out it's like can you want to test them out it's like can you want to test them out it's like can you hold your temper when someone's hold your temper when someone's hold your temper when someone's bothering you well why would a woman bothering you well why would a woman bothering you well why would a woman want to know that well maybe she doesn't want to know that well maybe she doesn't want to know that well maybe she doesn't want you to uh snap and hurt her

want you to uh snap and hurt her want you to uh snap and hurt her kids and so how's she going to find that kids and so how's she going to find that kids and so how's she going to find that out ask you well you're going to say out ask you well you're going to say out ask you well you're going to say well I'd never do that it's like never e well I'd never do that it's like never e well I'd never do that it's like never e let's find out if it's never let's find out if it's never let's find out if it's never never so we don't know how people test never so we don't know how people test never so we don't know how people test each other out in relationships but or each other out in relationships but or each other out in relationships but or why exactly but it's intense and why exactly but it's intense and why exactly but it's intense and necessary what's your and what's in necessary what's your and what's in necessary what's your and what's in general should a man's relationship with general should a man's relationship with general should a man's relationship with temper be you should have one and you temper be you should have one and you temper be you should have one and you should be able to regulate it like should be able to regulate it like should be able to regulate it like that's part of that attractiveness of that's part of that attractiveness of that's part of that attractiveness of the Monstrous that characterizes women's the Monstrous that characterizes women's the Monstrous that characterizes women's fantasies right because and N pointed fantasies right because and N pointed fantasies right because and N pointed this out too go back to n you know n one this out too go back to n you know n one this out too go back to n you know n one of n's claim was that most of what of n's claim was that most of what of n's claim was that most of what passes for Morality is nothing but passes for Morality is nothing but passes for Morality is nothing but cowardice you know I'd never cheat on my cowardice you know I'd never cheat on my cowardice you know I'd never cheat on my wife it's like uh is there anybody wife it's like uh is there anybody wife it's like uh is there anybody asking you asking you asking you to that you actually find attractive or to that you actually find attractive or to that you actually find attractive or are there dozens of people asking you to are there dozens of people asking you to are there dozens of people asking you to that you find that you find that you find attractive it's like well I would never attractive it's like well I would never attractive it's like well I would never cheat it's like no you just don't have cheat it's like no you just don't have cheat it's like no you just don't have the opportunity now I don't I'm not the opportunity now I don't I'm not the opportunity now I don't I'm not saying that everyone's in that position saying that everyone's in that position saying that everyone's in that position you know that they would cheat even if you know that they would cheat even if you know that they would cheat even if they had the opportunity because that's they had the opportunity because that's they had the opportunity because that's not true but and it's the same with not true but and it's the same with not true but and it's the same with regards to oh I'm a peaceful man it's regards to oh I'm a peaceful man it's regards to oh I'm a peaceful man it's like no you're not you're just a weak like no you're not you're just a weak like no you're not you're just a weak coward you wouldn't dare have it to have coward you wouldn't dare have it to have coward you wouldn't dare have it to have a confrontation physical or metaphysical a confrontation physical or metaphysical a confrontation physical or metaphysical and you're passing it off as morality and you're passing it off as morality and you're passing it off as morality because you don't want to come to terms because you don't want to come to terms because you don't want to come to terms with the fact of your own weakness and with the fact of your own weakness and with the fact of your own weakness and cowardice and part of the that what I cowardice and part of the that what I cowardice and part of the that what I would say is Twisted pseudo-christian would say is Twisted pseudo-christian would say is Twisted pseudo-christian morality that nche was criticizing was

morality that nche was criticizing was morality that nche was criticizing was exactly of that sort and it tied into exactly of that sort and it tied into exactly of that sort and it tied into resentment and envy and he tied that in resentment and envy and he tied that in resentment and envy and he tied that in explicitly said that failure in life explicitly said that failure in life explicitly said that failure in life masked by the morality that's nothing masked by the morality that's nothing masked by the morality that's nothing but weak but weak but weak cowardice turns to the resentment that cowardice turns to the resentment that cowardice turns to the resentment that undermines and destroys everything and undermines and destroys everything and undermines and destroys everything and that does that purposefully yeah I think that does that purposefully yeah I think that does that purposefully yeah I think he was criticizing if under the facade he was criticizing if under the facade he was criticizing if under the facade of niceness there's an ocean of of niceness there's an ocean of of niceness there's an ocean of resentment yeah that's for resentment yeah that's for resentment yeah that's for sure that's that for sure that's also sure that's that for sure that's also sure that's that for sure that's also the danger of being too forthcoming with the danger of being too forthcoming with the danger of being too forthcoming with people see this is another thing let's people see this is another thing let's people see this is another thing let's say about my wife who's not particularly say about my wife who's not particularly say about my wife who's not particularly agreeable it's like she's not agreeable it's like she's not agreeable it's like she's not particularly agreeable but she's not particularly agreeable but she's not particularly agreeable but she's not resentful and that's because she doesn't resentful and that's because she doesn't resentful and that's because she doesn't give things away that she that she isn't give things away that she that she isn't give things away that she that she isn't willing to and if you're agreeable and willing to and if you're agreeable and willing to and if you're agreeable and nice and your conflict avoidant you'll nice and your conflict avoidant you'll nice and your conflict avoidant you'll push yourself too far to please the push yourself too far to please the push yourself too far to please the other person and then that makes you other person and then that makes you other person and then that makes you bitter and resentful so that's not bitter and resentful so that's not bitter and resentful so that's not helpful do you think you'll be in helpful do you think you'll be in helpful do you think you'll be in trouble for saying this on a podcast trouble for saying this on a podcast trouble for saying this on a podcast later no no we we know each other pretty later no no we we know each other pretty later no no we we know each other pretty well and like I said it's it's not it's well and like I said it's it's not it's well and like I said it's it's not it's a trait that I find admirable it's a trait that I find admirable it's a trait that I find admirable it's provocative and um challenging and it provocative and um challenging and it provocative and um challenging and it seems to work well we've been together seems to work well we've been together seems to work well we've been together 50 years so uh quick pause bathroom 50 years so uh quick pause bathroom 50 years so uh quick pause bathroom break if we can descend from the realm break if we can descend from the realm break if we can descend from the realm of ideas down to of ideas down to of ideas down to uh history and reality I would say the uh history and reality I would say the uh history and reality I would say the time between World War I and World War time between World War I and World War time between World War I and World War II was uh one of History's biggest

II was uh one of History's biggest II was uh one of History's biggest testing of testing of testing of ideas and really the most dramatic kinds ideas and really the most dramatic kinds ideas and really the most dramatic kinds of ideas that of ideas that of ideas that helped us understand the nature of Good helped us understand the nature of Good helped us understand the nature of Good and Evil I just want to ask you sort of and Evil I just want to ask you sort of and Evil I just want to ask you sort of a a question about Good and Evil uh a a question about Good and Evil uh a a question about Good and Evil uh Churchill in many ways was not a good Churchill in many ways was not a good Churchill in many ways was not a good man Stalin as you've documented man Stalin as you've documented man Stalin as you've documented extensively was a horrible extensively was a horrible extensively was a horrible man but you can make the case that both man but you can make the case that both man but you can make the case that both were necessary for stopping an even were necessary for stopping an even were necessary for stopping an even worse human being in Hitler so to what worse human being in Hitler so to what worse human being in Hitler so to what degree do you degree do you degree do you need monsters to fight need monsters to fight need monsters to fight monsters do you monsters do you monsters do you need bad men to be able to fight off need bad men to be able to fight off need bad men to be able to fight off greater greater greater evils it's everything in its proper evils it's everything in its proper evils it's everything in its proper place is the answer to that you know we place is the answer to that you know we place is the answer to that you know we might think that our life would be might think that our life would be might think that our life would be easier without fear let's say we might easier without fear let's say we might easier without fear let's say we might say that our life would be easier say that our life would be easier say that our life would be easier Without Anger or pain but Without Anger or pain but Without Anger or pain but the truth of the matter is is that those the truth of the matter is is that those the truth of the matter is is that those things are beneficial even though they things are beneficial even though they things are beneficial even though they can cause great suffering but they have can cause great suffering but they have can cause great suffering but they have to be in their proper place and that to be in their proper place and that to be in their proper place and that capacity that could in one context be a capacity that could in one context be a capacity that could in one context be a terrible Force for evil can in the terrible Force for evil can in the terrible Force for evil can in the proper context be the most potent Force proper context be the most potent Force proper context be the most potent Force for good a good man has to be formidable for good a good man has to be formidable for good a good man has to be formidable and partly what that means as far as I and partly what that means as far as I and partly what that means as far as I can tell is that you have to be able to

can tell is that you have to be able to can tell is that you have to be able to say no and no means like I thought a lot say no and no means like I thought a lot say no and no means like I thought a lot about no working as a clinician because about no working as a clinician because about no working as a clinician because I did a lot of strategic counseling with I did a lot of strategic counseling with I did a lot of strategic counseling with my clients in a lot of extremely my clients in a lot of extremely my clients in a lot of extremely difficult situations and I learned to difficult situations and I learned to difficult situations and I learned to take apart what no meant and also when take apart what no meant and also when take apart what no meant and also when dealing with my own children because I dealing with my own children because I dealing with my own children because I used no sparingly because it's a used no sparingly because it's a used no sparingly because it's a powerful weapon let's say but I meant it powerful weapon let's say but I meant it powerful weapon let's say but I meant it and with my kids what it meant was if and with my kids what it meant was if and with my kids what it meant was if you continue that pattern of behavior you continue that pattern of behavior you continue that pattern of behavior something you do not like will happen to something you do not like will happen to something you do not like will happen to you with 100% you with 100% you with 100% certainty certainty certainty and when when that's the case and you're and when when that's the case and you're and when when that's the case and you're willing to implement it you don't have willing to implement it you don't have willing to implement it you don't have to do it very often with regards to to do it very often with regards to to do it very often with regards to monstrosity it's like weak men aren't monstrosity it's like weak men aren't monstrosity it's like weak men aren't good they're just weak that's n's good they're just weak that's n's good they're just weak that's n's observation that's partly again why he observation that's partly again why he observation that's partly again why he was tempted to place the will to power was tempted to place the will to power was tempted to place the will to power let's say and to deal with that notion let's say and to deal with that notion let's say and to deal with that notion in a manner that when it was tied with in a manner that when it was tied with in a manner that when it was tied with the revaluation of all values was the revaluation of all values was the revaluation of all values was counterproductive and counterproductive counterproductive and counterproductive counterproductive and counterproductive in the final analysis it's not like he in the final analysis it's not like he in the final analysis it's not like he not like there wasn't something to what not like there wasn't something to what not like there wasn't something to what he was driving at you know formidable he was driving at you know formidable he was driving at you know formidable men are admirable and you know don't men are admirable and you know don't men are admirable and you know don't mess with them Douglas Murray's a good mess with them Douglas Murray's a good mess with them Douglas Murray's a good example of that he's you know he's a example of that he's you know he's a example of that he's you know he's a rather slight guy but he's got a spine rather slight guy but he's got a spine rather slight guy but he's got a spine of Steel and there's no more than a bit of Steel and there's no more than a bit of Steel and there's no more than a bit of what's a monstrous in him and Joo of what's a monstrous in him and Joo of what's a monstrous in him and Joo willink is like that and Joe Rogan is willink is like that and Joe Rogan is willink is like that and Joe Rogan is like that and you're like that but like that and you're like that but like that and you're like that but there's a different level I mean if you

there's a different level I mean if you there's a different level I mean if you look to me churo might represent the the look to me churo might represent the the look to me churo might represent the the thing you're talking about but World War thing you're talking about but World War thing you're talking about but World War II Hitler would not be stopped without II Hitler would not be stopped without II Hitler would not be stopped without Stalin well I wonder yes yes and you you Stalin well I wonder yes yes and you you Stalin well I wonder yes yes and you you if I may insert into this picture of if I may insert into this picture of if I may insert into this picture of complexity Hitler would have not stopped complexity Hitler would have not stopped complexity Hitler would have not stopped until he enslaved and exterminated the until he enslaved and exterminated the until he enslaved and exterminated the entirety of the Slavic people the Jewish entirety of the Slavic people the Jewish entirety of the Slavic people the Jewish people the Slavic people the gypsies the people the Slavic people the gypsies the people the Slavic people the gypsies the everybody who's non Arian but then everybody who's non Arian but then everybody who's non Arian but then Stalin in the mass rape of German women Stalin in the mass rape of German women Stalin in the mass rape of German women by the Red Army as they March towards by the Red Army as they March towards by the Red Army as they March towards Berlin is a kind of manifestation the Berlin is a kind of manifestation the Berlin is a kind of manifestation the full monstrosity that a person can be full monstrosity that a person can be full monstrosity that a person can be you you can easily be in a situation you you you can easily be in a situation you you you can easily be in a situation you can easily and unfortunately find can easily and unfortunately find can easily and unfortunately find yourself in a situation where all you yourself in a situation where all you yourself in a situation where all you have in front of you are a variety of have in front of you are a variety of have in front of you are a variety of bad bad bad options you know that's partly why if options you know that's partly why if options you know that's partly why if you have any sense you try to conduct you have any sense you try to conduct you have any sense you try to conduct yourself very carefully in life because yourself very carefully in life because yourself very carefully in life because you don't want to be in a position where you don't want to be in a position where you don't want to be in a position where you've made so many mistakes that all you've made so many mistakes that all you've made so many mistakes that all the options left you are terrible and so the options left you are terrible and so the options left you are terrible and so you said well was it necessary to Ally you said well was it necessary to Ally you said well was it necessary to Ally with Stalin it's like well it's very with Stalin it's like well it's very with Stalin it's like well it's very difficult to second guess the trajectory difficult to second guess the trajectory difficult to second guess the trajectory of something as complex as World War II of something as complex as World War II of something as complex as World War II but we could say casually at least as but we could say casually at least as but we could say casually at least as westerners have in general that that westerners have in general that that westerners have in general that that Alliance was necessary now I think the Alliance was necessary now I think the Alliance was necessary now I think the mistake that the West made in the mistake that the West made in the mistake that the West made in the aftermath of World War II was in not aftermath of World War II was in not aftermath of World War II was in not dealing as forthrightly with the

dealing as forthrightly with the dealing as forthrightly with the catastrophes of Communism as an ideology catastrophes of Communism as an ideology catastrophes of Communism as an ideology as we did with Fascism and that's as we did with Fascism and that's as we did with Fascism and that's especially true of the intellectuals in especially true of the intellectuals in especially true of the intellectuals in the universities I mean it was very the universities I mean it was very the universities I mean it was very common when I was teaching both at common when I was teaching both at common when I was teaching both at Harvard and at the University of Toronto Harvard and at the University of Toronto Harvard and at the University of Toronto for the students in my personality class for the students in my personality class for the students in my personality class where we studied soul niten Who's where we studied soul niten Who's where we studied soul niten Who's actually an existential psychologist in actually an existential psychologist in actually an existential psychologist in many ways and a deep one none of them many ways and a deep one none of them many ways and a deep one none of them knew anything about the Soviet knew anything about the Soviet knew anything about the Soviet atrocities none of them knew anything atrocities none of them knew anything atrocities none of them knew anything about what happened in Ukraine and the about what happened in Ukraine and the about what happened in Ukraine and the death of 6 million productive people had death of 6 million productive people had death of 6 million productive people had no idea that the Communists killed tens no idea that the Communists killed tens no idea that the Communists killed tens of millions of people in the aftermath of millions of people in the aftermath of millions of people in the aftermath of the re Russian Revolution they know of the re Russian Revolution they know of the re Russian Revolution they know even less about Ma and the great Le yeah even less about Ma and the great Le yeah even less about Ma and the great Le yeah right right which which some estimates right right which which some estimates right right which which some estimates are 100 million people now you know when are 100 million people now you know when are 100 million people now you know when your error bars are in the tens of your error bars are in the tens of your error bars are in the tens of millions well that's a real indication millions well that's a real indication millions well that's a real indication of a cataclysm and nobody knows how many of a cataclysm and nobody knows how many of a cataclysm and nobody knows how many people died from direct oppression or people died from direct oppression or people died from direct oppression or indirect in the Soviet Union 20 million indirect in the Soviet Union 20 million indirect in the Soviet Union 20 million it seems like a reasonable estimate Sol it seems like a reasonable estimate Sol it seems like a reasonable estimate Sol nen's upper bound was higher than that nen's upper bound was higher than that nen's upper bound was higher than that and how do you uh and how do you uh and how do you uh measure the intellectual output that was measure the intellectual output that was measure the intellectual output that was suppressed and killed off the the the suppressed and killed off the the the suppressed and killed off the the the number of intellectuals artists and number of intellectuals artists and number of intellectuals artists and writers that were put into prod Farmers writers that were put into prod Farmers writers that were put into prod Farmers for that matter and anyone who was for that matter and anyone who was for that matter and anyone who was willing to tell the truth right willing to tell the truth right willing to tell the truth right absolutely so yeah catastrophic and so I absolutely so yeah catastrophic and so I absolutely so yeah catastrophic and so I think the West's think the West's think the West's failure wasn't so much allying with failure wasn't so much allying with failure wasn't so much allying with Stalin I mean it was Douglas MacArthur Stalin I mean it was Douglas MacArthur Stalin I mean it was Douglas MacArthur who wanted to continue he thought we

who wanted to continue he thought we who wanted to continue he thought we should just take the Soviets out after should just take the Soviets out after should just take the Soviets out after the second world war and they removed the second world war and they removed the second world war and they removed them from any position of authority them from any position of authority them from any position of authority where such a thing might be made where such a thing might be made where such a thing might be made possible and people were tired and but possible and people were tired and but possible and people were tired and but was MacArthur wrong well he certainly was MacArthur wrong well he certainly was MacArthur wrong well he certainly wasn't wrong in his insistence that wasn't wrong in his insistence that wasn't wrong in his insistence that Stalin was as big a monster as Hitler or Stalin was as big a monster as Hitler or Stalin was as big a monster as Hitler or bigger bigger bigger so the valorization of the leftist so the valorization of the leftist so the valorization of the leftist proclivity the radical leftist proclivity the radical leftist proclivity the radical leftist proclivity is the sin of the West I proclivity is the sin of the West I proclivity is the sin of the West I think more intensely than allying with think more intensely than allying with think more intensely than allying with Stalin tricky Nuance topic but if we Stalin tricky Nuance topic but if we Stalin tricky Nuance topic but if we look at the modern day and the threat of look at the modern day and the threat of look at the modern day and the threat of communism Marxism in the United States communism Marxism in the United States communism Marxism in the United States uh to uh to uh to me it's me it's me it's disrespectful to the atrocities of the disrespectful to the atrocities of the disrespectful to the atrocities of the 20th century to call somebody like kamla 20th century to call somebody like kamla 20th century to call somebody like kamla Harris a Harris a Harris a communist but I see the sort of communist but I see the sort of communist but I see the sort of escalation of the extremeness of escalation of the extremeness of escalation of the extremeness of language being used used when you call language being used used when you call language being used used when you call somebody like Donald Trump a fascist somebody like Donald Trump a fascist somebody like Donald Trump a fascist then it makes total sense to then use then it makes total sense to then use then it makes total sense to then use similar extreme terminology for somebody similar extreme terminology for somebody similar extreme terminology for somebody like KLA Harris but maybe I could ask like KLA Harris but maybe I could ask like KLA Harris but maybe I could ask your evaluation if you look at the your evaluation if you look at the your evaluation if you look at the political landscape today somebody like political landscape today somebody like political landscape today somebody like Joe Biden and K Harris well the first Joe Biden and K Harris well the first Joe Biden and K Harris well the first thing I would say is that I think that thing I would say is that I think that thing I would say is that I think that viewing the political landscape of today viewing the political landscape of today viewing the political landscape of today as a political landscape is actually as a political landscape is actually as a political landscape is actually wrong I think it's not the right frame wrong I think it's not the right frame wrong I think it's not the right frame of reference because what I see of reference because what I see of reference because what I see happening are are a very small

happening are are a very small happening are are a very small percentage of dark tetrad personality percentage of dark tetrad personality percentage of dark tetrad personality types so mellan manipulative types so mellan manipulative types so mellan manipulative narcissistic wanting undeserved narcissistic wanting undeserved narcissistic wanting undeserved attention Psychopathic that makes them attention Psychopathic that makes them attention Psychopathic that makes them predatory parasites and sadistic because predatory parasites and sadistic because predatory parasites and sadistic because that goes along with the other three that goes along with the other three that goes along with the other three that's that's that's about in the serious manifestation about in the serious manifestation about in the serious manifestation that's probably 3 to 5% of the that's probably 3 to 5% of the that's probably 3 to 5% of the population and they're generally kept population and they're generally kept population and they're generally kept under pretty decent controlled under pretty decent controlled under pretty decent controlled by civilized people and stable social by civilized people and stable social by civilized people and stable social interactions I think that their interactions I think that their interactions I think that their machinations are disinhibited machinations are disinhibited machinations are disinhibited by cost-free Social Media communication by cost-free Social Media communication by cost-free Social Media communication so they gain disproportionate influence so they gain disproportionate influence so they gain disproportionate influence now these people want undeserved now these people want undeserved now these people want undeserved recognition and social status and recognition and social status and recognition and social status and everything that goes along with it and everything that goes along with it and everything that goes along with it and they don't care how they get it because they don't care how they get it because they don't care how they get it because when I say they want that I mean that's when I say they want that I mean that's when I say they want that I mean that's all they want so in the realm of social all they want so in the realm of social all they want so in the realm of social media you media you media you mentioned uh yes but are you also mentioned uh yes but are you also mentioned uh yes but are you also suggesting that they're over represented suggesting that they're over represented suggesting that they're over represented in the realm of politics politicians and in the realm of politics politicians and in the realm of politics politicians and so on they're over represented in the so on they're over represented in the so on they're over represented in the realm of fractious political discourse realm of fractious political discourse realm of fractious political discourse because they can use ideas first of all because they can use ideas first of all because they can use ideas first of all they can use let's say the benevolent they can use let's say the benevolent they can use let's say the benevolent ideas of the right and the benevolent ideas of the right and the benevolent ideas of the right and the benevolent ideas of the left either one and switch ideas of the left either one and switch ideas of the left either one and switch back and forth for that matter as a back and forth for that matter as a back and forth for that matter as a camoufl FL for what they're actually up camoufl FL for what they're actually up camoufl FL for what they're actually up to so how do you you've interviewed a

to so how do you you've interviewed a to so how do you you've interviewed a lot of people and you have a really lot of people and you have a really lot of people and you have a really powerful mind you have a good read on powerful mind you have a good read on powerful mind you have a good read on people so how do you know when you're people so how do you know when you're people so how do you know when you're sitting across from a psychopath I I sitting across from a psychopath I I sitting across from a psychopath I I wouldn't say that I do know in normal wouldn't say that I do know in normal wouldn't say that I do know in normal social circumstances we have evolved social circumstances we have evolved social circumstances we have evolved mechanisms to keep people like that mechanisms to keep people like that mechanisms to keep people like that under control let's say that you and I under control let's say that you and I under control let's say that you and I have a series of interactions and you have a series of interactions and you have a series of interactions and you screw me over once I'm not going to screw me over once I'm not going to screw me over once I'm not going to forget that now I might not write you forget that now I might not write you forget that now I might not write you off because of the one time but if it off because of the one time but if it off because of the one time but if it happens three times it's like we're not happens three times it's like we're not happens three times it's like we're not going to play together anymore and going to play together anymore and going to play together anymore and in normal in normal in normal times most of our social networks are times most of our social networks are times most of our social networks are connected and interacting so like if connected and interacting so like if connected and interacting so like if you ripped me off three times and I you ripped me off three times and I you ripped me off three times and I noted that I'm going to tell everybody I noted that I'm going to tell everybody I noted that I'm going to tell everybody I know and they're going to tell everybody know and they're going to tell everybody know and they're going to tell everybody they know and soon everyone will know they know and soon everyone will know they know and soon everyone will know and that's the end of your tricks but and that's the end of your tricks but and that's the end of your tricks but that assumes that we know who you are that assumes that we know who you are that assumes that we know who you are and we're in continual communication and we're in continual communication and we're in continual communication well all of that's gone well all of that's gone well all of that's gone online so anonymity does that online so anonymity does that online so anonymity does that and so does the amplification and so does the amplification and so does the amplification of of of emotional emotional emotional intensity by the social media platforms intensity by the social media platforms intensity by the social media platforms and their algorithms I think what we're and their algorithms I think what we're and their algorithms I think what we're doing this is happening on Twitter doing this is happening on Twitter doing this is happening on Twitter continually is we're giving the 5% of continually is we're giving the 5% of continually is we're giving the 5% of psychopaths a radically disproportionate psychopaths a radically disproportionate psychopaths a radically disproportionate voice and what they're doing is there's voice and what they're doing is there's voice and what they're doing is there's a bunch of them on the left and they're a bunch of them on the left and they're a bunch of them on the left and they're all we're so compassionate and there's a all we're so compassionate and there's a all we're so compassionate and there's a bunch of them on the right and at the bunch of them on the right and at the bunch of them on the right and at the moment they're all we're so Christian moment they're all we're so Christian moment they're all we're so Christian and Free Speech oriented it's like no and Free Speech oriented it's like no and Free Speech oriented it's like no you're not you're a narcissistic

you're not you're a narcissistic you're not you're a narcissistic Psychopaths and that's your camouflage Psychopaths and that's your camouflage Psychopaths and that's your camouflage and you hide behind your anonymity and and you hide behind your anonymity and and you hide behind your anonymity and you use um fractious and divisive you use um fractious and divisive you use um fractious and divisive language to to attract fools and to language to to attract fools and to language to to attract fools and to elevate your social status and your elevate your social status and your elevate your social status and your clout and and not only that to gain what clout and and not only that to gain what clout and and not only that to gain what would you say satisfaction for your would you say satisfaction for your would you say satisfaction for your sadistic impulses see the problem is sadistic impulses see the problem is sadistic impulses see the problem is it's hard to tell who's the psychopath it's hard to tell who's the psychopath it's hard to tell who's the psychopath and who is a and who is a and who is a uh uh heterodox truth Seeker yeah well uh uh heterodox truth Seeker yeah well uh uh heterodox truth Seeker yeah well if you were charitable about Tucker if you were charitable about Tucker if you were charitable about Tucker Carlson's recent interview you'd say Carlson's recent interview you'd say Carlson's recent interview you'd say that was exactly the conundrum he faced that was exactly the conundrum he faced that was exactly the conundrum he faced and it is hard like I've thought about and it is hard like I've thought about and it is hard like I've thought about for example interviewing Andrew Tate and for example interviewing Andrew Tate and for example interviewing Andrew Tate and I thought I don't think so and then I I thought I don't think so and then I I thought I don't think so and then I thought why I figured it's not obvious thought why I figured it's not obvious thought why I figured it's not obvious to me at all that he wouldn't charm me to me at all that he wouldn't charm me to me at all that he wouldn't charm me so I knew this guy Robert hair Robert so I knew this guy Robert hair Robert so I knew this guy Robert hair Robert hair was the world's foremost authority hair was the world's foremost authority hair was the world's foremost authority on psychopathy he established the field on psychopathy he established the field on psychopathy he established the field of clinical analysis of Psychopathic of clinical analysis of Psychopathic of clinical analysis of Psychopathic behavior and Har was a pretty agreeable behavior and Har was a pretty agreeable behavior and Har was a pretty agreeable guy so you know he would give people the guy so you know he would give people the guy so you know he would give people the benefit of the doubt and he interviewed benefit of the doubt and he interviewed benefit of the doubt and he interviewed hundreds of serious Psychopaths like hundreds of serious Psychopaths like hundreds of serious Psychopaths like imprisoned violent offenders and he told imprisoned violent offenders and he told imprisoned violent offenders and he told me in one of our conversations that me in one of our conversations that me in one of our conversations that every time he sat down with a violent every time he sat down with a violent every time he sat down with a violent offender psychopath and he had a measure offender psychopath and he had a measure offender psychopath and he had a measure for psychopathy that was a clinical for psychopathy that was a clinical for psychopathy that was a clinical checklist so he could identify the checklist so he could identify the checklist so he could identify the Psychopaths from just the say

Psychopaths from just the say Psychopaths from just the say run-of-the-mill criminals every time he run-of-the-mill criminals every time he run-of-the-mill criminals every time he sat down with them they pulled the wool sat down with them they pulled the wool sat down with them they pulled the wool over his eyes and it wasn't he over his eyes and it wasn't he over his eyes and it wasn't he videotaped the the interviews and it videotaped the the interviews and it videotaped the the interviews and it wasn't until later when he was reviewing wasn't until later when he was reviewing wasn't until later when he was reviewing the videos that he could see what they the videos that he could see what they the videos that he could see what they were doing but in person their tricks were doing but in person their tricks were doing but in person their tricks were more sophisticated than his were more sophisticated than his were more sophisticated than his detection ability well okay this is detection ability well okay this is detection ability well okay this is fascinating because again you're a great fascinating because again you're a great fascinating because again you're a great interviewer I would love it if you interviewer I would love it if you interviewer I would love it if you interviewed somebody like Putin so this interviewed somebody like Putin so this interviewed somebody like Putin so this idea that you are a fool in the face of idea that you are a fool in the face of idea that you are a fool in the face of psychopathy just doesn't jive with me psychopathy just doesn't jive with me psychopathy just doesn't jive with me I'm an agreeable guy that's the problem I'm an agreeable guy that's the problem I'm an agreeable guy that's the problem I'll give people the benefit of the I'll give people the benefit of the I'll give people the benefit of the doubt right right but that's good doubt right right but that's good doubt right right but that's good because the way you reveal psychopathy because the way you reveal psychopathy because the way you reveal psychopathy is by being agreeable not weak is by being agreeable not weak is by being agreeable not weak but uh seeking with empathy to but uh seeking with empathy to but uh seeking with empathy to understand the other person and in the understand the other person and in the understand the other person and in the details in the little nuanced ways that details in the little nuanced ways that details in the little nuanced ways that they struggle with questions they struggle with questions they struggle with questions yeah the psychopathy is revealed so so yeah the psychopathy is revealed so so yeah the psychopathy is revealed so so from uh we're kind of just to separate from uh we're kind of just to separate from uh we're kind of just to separate the two things so one over the two things so one over the two things so one over representation of psychopathy online uh representation of psychopathy online uh representation of psychopathy online uh with anonymity that's a serious with anonymity that's a serious with anonymity that's a serious fascinating problem but in the interview fascinating problem but in the interview fascinating problem but in the interview one-on-one yeah I don't know if the job one-on-one yeah I don't know if the job one-on-one yeah I don't know if the job of a human being in conversation is to of a human being in conversation is to of a human being in conversation is to uh not talk to Psychopaths but to talk I uh not talk to Psychopaths but to talk I uh not talk to Psychopaths but to talk I mean like how would you interview Hitler mean like how would you interview Hitler mean like how would you interview Hitler well I've you know I've had very well I've you know I've had very well I've you know I've had very difficult clinical interviews with difficult clinical interviews with difficult clinical interviews with people in my clinical practice and so people in my clinical practice and so people in my clinical practice and so what do you how do you how do you what do you how do you how do you what do you how do you how do you approach that well I I really probably

approach that well I I really probably approach that well I I really probably approach that the way I approach most approach that the way I approach most approach that the way I approach most conversations and it's something like conversations and it's something like conversations and it's something like I'm going to assume that you're playing I'm going to assume that you're playing I'm going to assume that you're playing a straight game but I'm going to watch a straight game but I'm going to watch a straight game but I'm going to watch and if you throw the odd crooked and if you throw the odd crooked and if you throw the odd crooked maneuver in then I'll note it and after maneuver in then I'll note it and after maneuver in then I'll note it and after you do it three times I'll think okay I you do it three times I'll think okay I you do it three times I'll think okay I see I thought we were playing one game see I thought we were playing one game see I thought we were playing one game but we're actually playing another one but we're actually playing another one but we're actually playing another one and if I'm smart enough to pick pick and if I'm smart enough to pick pick and if I'm smart enough to pick pick that up that usually works out quite that up that usually works out quite that up that usually works out quite successfully for me but I'm not always successfully for me but I'm not always successfully for me but I'm not always smart enough to pick that up but see smart enough to pick that up but see smart enough to pick that up but see here's a nice thing this a one-on-one here's a nice thing this a one-on-one here's a nice thing this a one-on-one conversation that's not recorded is conversation that's not recorded is conversation that's not recorded is different than one that's listened by a different than one that's listened by a different than one that's listened by a lot of people because I would venture to lot of people because I would venture to lot of people because I would venture to I trust the intelligence of the viewer I trust the intelligence of the viewer I trust the intelligence of the viewer and The Listener to detect even better and The Listener to detect even better and The Listener to detect even better than you yes and I think that's true by than you yes and I think that's true by than you yes and I think that's true by the way to detect the psychopathy yeah the way to detect the psychopathy yeah the way to detect the psychopathy yeah I've had the odd interview with people I've had the odd interview with people I've had the odd interview with people that I wasn't happy with having that I wasn't happy with having that I wasn't happy with having organized organized organized because I felt that I because I felt that I because I felt that I had brought their ideas to a wider had brought their ideas to a wider had brought their ideas to a wider audience than might have been audience than might have been audience than might have been appropriate but my conclusion and the appropriate but my conclusion and the appropriate but my conclusion and the conclusion of my producers and the conclusion of my producers and the conclusion of my producers and the people I talked to was that we could run people I talked to was that we could run people I talked to was that we could run the interview the discussion and let the the interview the discussion and let the the interview the discussion and let the audience sort it out and I would say audience sort it out and I would say audience sort it out and I would say they do so I think as a general rule of they do so I think as a general rule of they do so I think as a general rule of thumb that's true and I also think that thumb that's true and I also think that thumb that's true and I also think that the long form interviews are the long form interviews are the long form interviews are particularly good at that because it's particularly good at that because it's particularly good at that because it's not that easy to Main maintain a not that easy to Main maintain a not that easy to Main maintain a manipulative stance especially if you're manipulative stance especially if you're manipulative stance especially if you're empty for like 2 and 1 half hours yes

empty for like 2 and 1 half hours yes empty for like 2 and 1 half hours yes you get tired you get irritable you show you get tired you get irritable you show you get tired you get irritable you show that you lose the track you're you're that you lose the track you're you're that you lose the track you're you're going to start leaking out your mistakes going to start leaking out your mistakes going to start leaking out your mistakes and so and that actually is the case for and so and that actually is the case for and so and that actually is the case for all the world leaders I would all the world leaders I would all the world leaders I would say one hour is too short in something say one hour is too short in something say one hour is too short in something happens at like 2our plus Mark where you happens at like 2our plus Mark where you happens at like 2our plus Mark where you start to leak and I'm trusting the start to leak and I'm trusting the start to leak and I'm trusting the intelligence of the of the listener to intelligence of the of the listener to intelligence of the of the listener to sort of uh to detect that yeah and it sort of uh to detect that yeah and it sort of uh to detect that yeah and it and it might be the intelligence of the and it might be the intelligence of the and it might be the intelligence of the distributed crowd and I mean that is distributed crowd and I mean that is distributed crowd and I mean that is what I've seen with the YouTube what I've seen with the YouTube what I've seen with the YouTube interviews is that it's hard to interviews is that it's hard to interviews is that it's hard to fool people as such over a protracted fool people as such over a protracted fool people as such over a protracted period of time and I guess it's partly period of time and I guess it's partly period of time and I guess it's partly because everybody brings a different because everybody brings a different because everybody brings a different slightly different set of falsehood slightly different set of falsehood slightly different set of falsehood detectors to the table and if you detectors to the table and if you detectors to the table and if you aggregate that it's pretty damn accurate aggregate that it's pretty damn accurate aggregate that it's pretty damn accurate but of course you know it's it's comp at but of course you know it's it's comp at but of course you know it's it's comp at because um ideas of Nazi ideology spread because um ideas of Nazi ideology spread because um ideas of Nazi ideology spread in the 20s there was a real battle in the 20s there was a real battle in the 20s there was a real battle between Marxism and Nazism oh yeah and I between Marxism and Nazism oh yeah and I between Marxism and Nazism oh yeah and I believe there are some attempts at believe there are some attempts at believe there are some attempts at censorship of Nazi ideology censorship censorship of Nazi ideology censorship censorship of Nazi ideology censorship very often does the opposite it gives very often does the opposite it gives very often does the opposite it gives The Fringe The Fringe The Fringe ideologies power if they're being ideologies power if they're being ideologies power if they're being censored because that's an indication censored because that's an indication censored because that's an indication that the uh the the the man in power that the uh the the the man in power that the uh the the the man in power doesn't want the truth to be heard kind doesn't want the truth to be heard kind doesn't want the truth to be heard kind of idea and that just puts fuel to the of idea and that just puts fuel to the of idea and that just puts fuel to the it also motivates the paranoid types it also motivates the paranoid types it also motivates the paranoid types because one of the reasons that paranoia

because one of the reasons that paranoia because one of the reasons that paranoia spirals out of control is because spirals out of control is because spirals out of control is because paranoid people almost inevitably end up paranoid people almost inevitably end up paranoid people almost inevitably end up being persecuted because they're so being persecuted because they're so being persecuted because they're so touchy and so suspicious that people touchy and so suspicious that people touchy and so suspicious that people start to walk on eggshells around them start to walk on eggshells around them start to walk on eggshells around them as if there are things going on behind as if there are things going on behind as if there are things going on behind the scenes and so then they get more the scenes and so then they get more the scenes and so then they get more distrustful and more paranoid and distrustful and more paranoid and distrustful and more paranoid and eventually they start misbehaving so eventually they start misbehaving so eventually they start misbehaving so badly that they are actually persecuted badly that they are actually persecuted badly that they are actually persecuted Often by legal authorities and you know Often by legal authorities and you know Often by legal authorities and you know it's down the rabbit hole they go and so it's down the rabbit hole they go and so it's down the rabbit hole they go and so you know musk is betting on that to some you know musk is betting on that to some you know musk is betting on that to some degree right he believes that free degree right he believes that free degree right he believes that free expression on Twitter X will sort itself expression on Twitter X will sort itself expression on Twitter X will sort itself out and be of net benefit and I follow a out and be of net benefit and I follow a out and be of net benefit and I follow a lot of really bad accounts on X because lot of really bad accounts on X because lot of really bad accounts on X because I like to keep an eye I like to keep an eye I like to keep an eye on the pathology of the left let's say on the pathology of the left let's say on the pathology of the left let's say and the pathology of the right thinking and the pathology of the right thinking and the pathology of the right thinking at least in my clinical way that I'm at least in my clinical way that I'm at least in my clinical way that I'm watching the Psychopaths dance around watching the Psychopaths dance around watching the Psychopaths dance around and try to do what Their subversion and and try to do what Their subversion and and try to do what Their subversion and it's an ugly place to inhabit that's for it's an ugly place to inhabit that's for it's an ugly place to inhabit that's for sure but it's also the case that a very sure but it's also the case that a very sure but it's also the case that a very tiny minority of seriously Bad actors tiny minority of seriously Bad actors tiny minority of seriously Bad actors can have a disproportionate influence can have a disproportionate influence can have a disproportionate influence and one of the things I've always hoped and one of the things I've always hoped and one of the things I've always hoped for for social media channels is that for for social media channels is that for for social media channels is that they separate the anonymous accounts they separate the anonymous accounts they separate the anonymous accounts from the verified accounts they should from the verified accounts they should from the verified accounts they should just be in different categories people just be in different categories people just be in different categories people who will say what they think and take who will say what they think and take who will say what they think and take the hits to their the hits to their the hits to their reputation Anonymous types if you want reputation Anonymous types if you want reputation Anonymous types if you want to see what the anonymous types say you to see what the anonymous types say you to see what the anonymous types say you can see it but don't be confusing them can see it but don't be confusing them can see it but don't be confusing them with actual people cuz they're not the with actual people cuz they're not the with actual people cuz they're not the same we know that people are we know

same we know that people are we know same we know that people are we know that people behave more badly when that people behave more badly when that people behave more badly when they're Anonymous that's a very they're Anonymous that's a very they're Anonymous that's a very wellestablished psychological finding wellestablished psychological finding wellestablished psychological finding well and I think the danger to our well and I think the danger to our well and I think the danger to our culture is substantive I think the culture is substantive I think the culture is substantive I think the reason that everything perhaps the reason that everything perhaps the reason that everything perhaps the reason that everything started to go reason that everything started to go reason that everything started to go sideways pretty seriously around sideways pretty seriously around sideways pretty seriously around 2015 is because we invented these new 2015 is because we invented these new 2015 is because we invented these new modes of communication we have no idea modes of communication we have no idea modes of communication we have no idea how to police them and so the how to police them and so the how to police them and so the psychopathic psychopathic psychopathic manipulators they have free reign about manipulators they have free reign about manipulators they have free reign about 30% of the internet is prnography a huge 30% of the internet is prnography a huge 30% of the internet is prnography a huge amount of internet traffic is outright amount of internet traffic is outright amount of internet traffic is outright criminal and there's a penumbra around criminal and there's a penumbra around criminal and there's a penumbra around that that's you know Psychopathic that that's you know Psychopathic that that's you know Psychopathic narcissistic troublemaking trolls and narcissistic troublemaking trolls and narcissistic troublemaking trolls and that might constitute the bulk of the that might constitute the bulk of the that might constitute the bulk of the interactions online and it's partly interactions online and it's partly interactions online and it's partly because people can't be held responsible because people can't be held responsible because people can't be held responsible so the Free Riders have free reign it's so the Free Riders have free reign it's so the Free Riders have free reign it's a fascinating technical challenge yeah a fascinating technical challenge yeah a fascinating technical challenge yeah how to make our society resilient to the how to make our society resilient to the how to make our society resilient to the Psychopaths on the left and the right Psychopaths on the left and the right Psychopaths on the left and the right yeah yeah it might be the fundamental yeah yeah it might be the fundamental yeah yeah it might be the fundamental problem of the age given the problem of the age given the problem of the age given the amplification of communication by our amplification of communication by our amplification of communication by our social by our social networks and so to social by our social networks and so to social by our social networks and so to generalize across Psychopaths you could generalize across Psychopaths you could generalize across Psychopaths you could also think about Bots yeah which behave also think about Bots yeah which behave also think about Bots yeah which behave similar to psychopaths in their similar to psychopaths in their similar to psychopaths in their certainty and not carrying their certainty and not carrying their certainty and not carrying their maximizing some function they're not maximizing some function they're not maximizing some function they're not carrying about anything else attention carrying about anything else attention carrying about anything else attention yeah yeah yeah short-term attention even yeah yeah yeah short-term attention even yeah yeah yeah short-term attention even worse yeah because because you might you worse yeah because because you might you worse yeah because because you might you know that's another problem a like if know that's another problem a like if know that's another problem a like if the algorithms are maximizing for the the algorithms are maximizing for the the algorithms are maximizing for the grip of short-term attention they're grip of short-term attention they're grip of short-term attention they're acting like immature agents of attention acting like immature agents of attention acting like immature agents of attention right and so then imagine the worst case

right and so then imagine the worst case right and so then imagine the worst case scenario is negative emotion gers more scenario is negative emotion gers more scenario is negative emotion gers more attention and short-term gratification attention and short-term gratification attention and short-term gratification Garners more attention so then you're Garners more attention so then you're Garners more attention so then you're maximizing for the grip of short-term maximizing for the grip of short-term maximizing for the grip of short-term attention by negative emotion I attention by negative emotion I attention by negative emotion I mean that's not going to be a principle mean that's not going to be a principle mean that's not going to be a principle if we were talking earlier about you if we were talking earlier about you if we were talking earlier about you know unsustainable know unsustainable know unsustainable unifying axioms that's unifying axioms that's unifying axioms that's definitely that's definitely one of them definitely that's definitely one of them definitely that's definitely one of them maximize for the spread of negative maximize for the spread of negative maximize for the spread of negative attention negative emotion that Garner attention negative emotion that Garner attention negative emotion that Garner short-term attention Jesus brutal I short-term attention Jesus brutal I short-term attention Jesus brutal I just I tend to uh not think there's that just I tend to uh not think there's that just I tend to uh not think there's that many Psychopaths so maybe to push back a many Psychopaths so maybe to push back a many Psychopaths so maybe to push back a little bit it feels like there's a small little bit it feels like there's a small little bit it feels like there's a small number of psychopaths m 3 to 5% is is number of psychopaths m 3 to 5% is is number of psychopaths m 3 to 5% is is the is the estimate worldwide in terms the is the estimate worldwide in terms the is the estimate worldwide in terms of humans sure but in terms of the the of humans sure but in terms of the the of humans sure but in terms of the the pattern of stuff we see online My Hope pattern of stuff we see online My Hope pattern of stuff we see online My Hope Is that a lot of people on the extreme Is that a lot of people on the extreme Is that a lot of people on the extreme left and extreme right or just the left and extreme right or just the left and extreme right or just the trolls in general are just young people trolls in general are just young people trolls in general are just young people kind of going through the similar stuff kind of going through the similar stuff kind of going through the similar stuff that we've been talking about trying on that we've been talking about trying on that we've been talking about trying on the cynicism and the the cynicism and the the cynicism and the resentment uh there is there's a drug resentment uh there is there's a drug resentment uh there is there's a drug aspect to it there's a pull to aspect to it there's a pull to aspect to it there's a pull to that to uh to talk about somebody that to uh to talk about somebody that to uh to talk about somebody to take somebody down to take somebody down to take somebody down I mean there is some pleasure in that I mean there is some pleasure in that I mean there is some pleasure in that there's a there's a there's a dark pull towards that and I think dark pull towards that and I think dark pull towards that and I think that's the sadistic Po and I think a lot that's the sadistic Po and I think a lot that's the sadistic Po and I think a lot of people I mean see when you say of people I mean see when you say of people I mean see when you say sadistic it makes it sound like some

sadistic it makes it sound like some sadistic it makes it sound like some kind of it's a pathology it's pleasure kind of it's a pathology it's pleasure kind of it's a pathology it's pleasure in the suffering of others right but I in the suffering of others right but I in the suffering of others right but I just think that all of us just think that all of us just think that all of us have the capacity for that all humans have the capacity for that all humans have the capacity for that all humans have the capacity for that yeah some have the capacity for that yeah some have the capacity for that yeah some more than others but everyone to some more than others but everyone to some more than others but everyone to some degree and when you're young you don't degree and when you're young you don't degree and when you're young you don't understand the full implic of that on understand the full implic of that on understand the full implic of that on your own self so if you participate in your own self so if you participate in your own self so if you participate in taking other people down that's going to taking other people down that's going to taking other people down that's going to have a cost on your own development as a have a cost on your own development as a have a cost on your own development as a human being like it's going to take you human being like it's going to take you human being like it's going to take you towards a dust's nose from underground towards a dust's nose from underground towards a dust's nose from underground in the basement cynical all that kind of in the basement cynical all that kind of in the basement cynical all that kind of stuff alone which is why a lot of young stuff alone which is why a lot of young stuff alone which is why a lot of young people try it out you know the the people try it out you know the the people try it out you know the the reason is you get older and older you reason is you get older and older you reason is you get older and older you realize that that there's a huge cost to realize that that there's a huge cost to realize that that there's a huge cost to that so you don't do it but there's that so you don't do it but there's that so you don't do it but there's young people that so like I would I young people that so like I would I young people that so like I would I would like to sort of believe and hope would like to sort of believe and hope would like to sort of believe and hope that a large number of people who are that a large number of people who are that a large number of people who are trolls are just trying out the derision trolls are just trying out the derision trolls are just trying out the derision no doubt and then so they can be saved no doubt and then so they can be saved no doubt and then so they can be saved they can be they can be helped they they can be they can be helped they they can be they can be helped they could they could be shown that there's could they could be shown that there's could they could be shown that there's uh more growth there's more flourishing uh more growth there's more flourishing uh more growth there's more flourishing to uh celebrating other people and to uh celebrating other people and to uh celebrating other people and actually and criticizing ideas but not actually and criticizing ideas but not actually and criticizing ideas but not in the way of derision LOL but by in the way of derision LOL but by in the way of derision LOL but by formulating your own self in the world formulating your own self in the world formulating your own self in the world by formulating your ideas in a strong by formulating your ideas in a strong by formulating your ideas in a strong powerful way and also removing the cloak powerful way and also removing the cloak powerful way and also removing the cloak of anonymity and just standing behind of anonymity and just standing behind of anonymity and just standing behind your ideas your ideas your ideas carrying the responsibility of those carrying the responsibility of those carrying the responsibility of those ideas yeah I think all of that is right ideas yeah I think all of that is right ideas yeah I think all of that is right I think the idea that that's more likely I think the idea that that's more likely I think the idea that that's more likely to occur among young people that's clear to occur among young people that's clear to occur among young people that's clear people as they mature get more agreeable people as they mature get more agreeable people as they mature get more agreeable and conscientious so we actually know and conscientious so we actually know and conscientious so we actually know that that what you said is true

that that what you said is true that that what you said is true technically it's definitely the case technically it's definitely the case technically it's definitely the case that there's a an innate tilt towards that there's a an innate tilt towards that there's a an innate tilt towards pleasure in that sort of behavior and pleasure in that sort of behavior and pleasure in that sort of behavior and it's it is associated to some degree it's it is associated to some degree it's it is associated to some degree with dominant striving um and I do think with dominant striving um and I do think with dominant striving um and I do think it's true as you pointed out that many it's true as you pointed out that many it's true as you pointed out that many of the people who are toying with that of the people who are toying with that of the people who are toying with that pattern pattern pattern can be socialized out of it in fact can be socialized out of it in fact can be socialized out of it in fact maybe most most people even even the maybe most most people even even the maybe most most people even even the repeat criminal types tend to desist in repeat criminal types tend to desist in repeat criminal types tend to desist in their late 20s so imagine that so 1% of their late 20s so imagine that so 1% of their late 20s so imagine that so 1% of the criminals commit 65% of the crimes the criminals commit 65% of the crimes the criminals commit 65% of the crimes so imagine that that 1% are the people so imagine that that 1% are the people so imagine that that 1% are the people that you're really concerned with they that you're really concerned with they that you're really concerned with they often have stable patterns of offending often have stable patterns of offending often have stable patterns of offending that emerged in very very that emerged in very very that emerged in very very young like even in infancy and have young like even in infancy and have young like even in infancy and have and continued through adolescence and and continued through adolescence and and continued through adolescence and into adulthood if you keep them in into adulthood if you keep them in into adulthood if you keep them in prison until they're in their in the prison until they're in their in the prison until they're in their in the middle of their late 20s most of them middle of their late 20s most of them middle of their late 20s most of them stop and that might be the easiest way stop and that might be the easiest way stop and that might be the easiest way to understand that might just be delayed to understand that might just be delayed to understand that might just be delayed maturation maturation maturation so are most people so are most people so are most people salvageable yes definitely is everyone salvageable yes definitely is everyone salvageable yes definitely is everyone salvageable well at some point it salvageable well at some point it salvageable well at some point it becomes first of all they have to want becomes first of all they have to want becomes first of all they have to want to be salvaged that's a problem but then to be salvaged that's a problem but then to be salvaged that's a problem but then it also becomes something like well how it also becomes something like well how it also becomes something like well how how much resources are you going to how much resources are you going to how much resources are you going to devote to that like the the farther down devote to that like the the farther down devote to that like the the farther down the rabbit hole you've gone the more the rabbit hole you've gone the more the rabbit hole you've gone the more energy it takes to haul you up so there energy it takes to haul you up so there energy it takes to haul you up so there comes a point where the probability that

comes a point where the probability that comes a point where the probability that you'll be able to get enough resources you'll be able to get enough resources you'll be able to get enough resources devoted to you to rescue you from the devoted to you to rescue you from the devoted to you to rescue you from the pit of Hell that you've dug is zero and pit of Hell that you've dug is zero and pit of Hell that you've dug is zero and that's a very sad thing and it's very that's a very sad thing and it's very that's a very sad thing and it's very hard to be around someone who's in that hard to be around someone who's in that hard to be around someone who's in that situation very very hard and it seems situation very very hard and it seems situation very very hard and it seems that it's more likely that the leaders that it's more likely that the leaders that it's more likely that the leaders of movements are going to be Psychopaths of movements are going to be Psychopaths of movements are going to be Psychopaths and the followers of movements are going and the followers of movements are going and the followers of movements are going to be the the people that we're to be the the people that we're to be the the people that we're mentioning that mentioning that mentioning that are kind of lost themselves to the are kind of lost themselves to the are kind of lost themselves to the ideology of the movement well we we know ideology of the movement well we we know ideology of the movement well we we know that what you said is true even that what you said is true even that what you said is true even historically to a large degree because historically to a large degree because historically to a large degree because Germany was successfully densified and Germany was successfully densified and Germany was successfully densified and it's not like everybody who participated it's not like everybody who participated it's not like everybody who participated in every element of the Nazi movement in every element of the Nazi movement in every element of the Nazi movement was brought to Justice not not in the was brought to Justice not not in the was brought to Justice not not in the least the same thing happened in Japan least the same thing happened in Japan least the same thing happened in Japan so to some degree the same thing so to some degree the same thing so to some degree the same thing happened in South Africa right and so happened in South Africa right and so happened in South Africa right and so and it's the case for example also in and it's the case for example also in and it's the case for example also in the stories that we were referring to the stories that we were referring to the stories that we were referring to earlier the biblical Stories the earlier the biblical Stories the earlier the biblical Stories the Patriarchs of the Bible most of them are Patriarchs of the Bible most of them are Patriarchs of the Bible most of them are pretty bad people when they first start pretty bad people when they first start pretty bad people when they first start out like Jacob's a really good Jacob is out like Jacob's a really good Jacob is out like Jacob's a really good Jacob is the one who becomes Israel he's a major the one who becomes Israel he's a major the one who becomes Israel he's a major player in the biblical narrative and player in the biblical narrative and player in the biblical narrative and he's a pretty bad actor when he first he's a pretty bad actor when he first he's a pretty bad actor when he first starts out he's a mama's boy he's a liar starts out he's a mama's boy he's a liar starts out he's a mama's boy he's a liar he uh he steals from his own brother and he uh he steals from his own brother and he uh he steals from his own brother and in a major way he deceives his father in a major way he deceives his father in a major way he deceives his father he's a coward you know and yet he turns he's a coward you know and yet he turns he's a coward you know and yet he turns his life around so be careful the his life around so be careful the his life around so be careful the leaders you idolize in

leaders you idolize in leaders you idolize in worship but then it's not always clear worship but then it's not always clear worship but then it's not always clear to know who is the good and who's the to know who is the good and who's the to know who is the good and who's the evil y that's evil y that's evil y that's hard you have been through some dark hard you have been through some dark hard you have been through some dark places in your mind over your life uh places in your mind over your life uh places in your mind over your life uh what have been some of your dark hours what have been some of your dark hours what have been some of your dark hours and how did you find the light well I would say I started light well I would say I started contending with the problem of evil very contending with the problem of evil very contending with the problem of evil very young 13 or young 13 or young 13 or 14 and that that's been the 14 and that that's been the 14 and that that's been the main that was my main main that was my main main that was my main motivation of study motivation of study motivation of study for 30 years I guess something like for 30 years I guess something like for 30 years I guess something like that at the end of that 30 years it that at the end of that 30 years it that at the end of that 30 years it became more and more became more and more became more and more I became more and more interested in I became more and more interested in I became more and more interested in fleshing out the alternative like once I fleshing out the alternative like once I fleshing out the alternative like once I became convinced that evil existed and I became convinced that evil existed and I became convinced that evil existed and I that was very that was very that was very young I I always I always believed that young I I always I always believed that young I I always I always believed that if you could understand something well if you could understand something well if you could understand something well enough that you could formulate a enough that you could formulate a enough that you could formulate a solution to it but it turns out that solution to it but it turns out that solution to it but it turns out that seeing evil and understanding that it seeing evil and understanding that it seeing evil and understanding that it exists is less complicated exists is less complicated exists is less complicated than a technical description of its than a technical description of its than a technical description of its opposite like what is opposite like what is opposite like what is good you can say well it's not that for good you can say well it's not that for good you can say well it's not that for sure it's not owitz how about we start sure it's not owitz how about we start sure it's not owitz how about we start there it's as far from owitz as you can there it's as far from owitz as you can there it's as far from owitz as you can get it's as far from enjoying being an get it's as far from enjoying being an get it's as far from enjoying being an owitz campg guard as you can get okay owitz campg guard as you can get okay owitz campg guard as you can get okay well where are you when you're as far

well where are you when you're as far well where are you when you're as far away from that as you could possibly get away from that as you could possibly get away from that as you could possibly get what does that mean that and it does what does that mean that and it does what does that mean that and it does have something to do with play as far as have something to do with play as far as have something to do with play as far as I'm concerned like I think the I'm concerned like I think the I'm concerned like I think the antithesis of Ty is play so that took me antithesis of Ty is play so that took me antithesis of Ty is play so that took me a long time to figure out that a long time to figure out that a long time to figure out that specifically you know um and so that was specifically you know um and so that was specifically you know um and so that was very dark like I spent a lot of time very dark like I spent a lot of time very dark like I spent a lot of time studying the worst behaviors that I studying the worst behaviors that I studying the worst behaviors that I could discover abstractly in books but could discover abstractly in books but could discover abstractly in books but also in my clinical practice and and in also in my clinical practice and and in also in my clinical practice and and in my observations of people and so that's my observations of people and so that's my observations of people and so that's that's rough um more recently I was very that's rough um more recently I was very that's rough um more recently I was very ill and in a tremendous amount of pain ill and in a tremendous amount of pain ill and in a tremendous amount of pain like that lasted pretty much without any like that lasted pretty much without any like that lasted pretty much without any break for 3 years break for 3 years break for 3 years and what was particularly useful to me and what was particularly useful to me and what was particularly useful to me then was the strength of my then was the strength of my then was the strength of my relationships my immediate relationships relationships my immediate relationships relationships my immediate relationships my my my friendships also the relationships that friendships also the relationships that friendships also the relationships that I had established more broadly with I had established more broadly with I had established more broadly with people you know people you know people you know U Because by the time I became illite U Because by the time I became illite U Because by the time I became illite was reasonably well known and people was reasonably well known and people was reasonably well known and people were very supportive when when I was were very supportive when when I was were very supportive when when I was having trouble and that was very helpful having trouble and that was very helpful having trouble and that was very helpful but it's certainly the case that it was but it's certainly the case that it was but it's certainly the case that it was the connections I had particularly with the connections I had particularly with the connections I had particularly with my family but also with my friends that my family but also with my friends that my family but also with my friends that were the Saving Grace and that's were the Saving Grace and that's were the Saving Grace and that's something to know you know I something to know you know I something to know you know I mean it's necessary to Bear the burdens mean it's necessary to Bear the burdens mean it's necessary to Bear the burdens of the world on your own shoulders of the world on your own shoulders of the world on your own shoulders that's for sure the burdens of your own

that's for sure the burdens of your own that's for sure the burdens of your own existence and whatever other existence and whatever other existence and whatever other responsibilities you can mount but that responsibilities you can mount but that responsibilities you can mount but that by no means means that you can or should by no means means that you can or should by no means means that you can or should do it alone and so you know you might do it alone and so you know you might do it alone and so you know you might say say say well welcoming the adversity of Life as well welcoming the adversity of Life as well welcoming the adversity of Life as a Redemptive challenge is a task that's a Redemptive challenge is a task that's a Redemptive challenge is a task that's beyond the ability of the typical person beyond the ability of the typical person beyond the ability of the typical person or even maybe of anyone but then when or even maybe of anyone but then when or even maybe of anyone but then when you think well you're not you think well you're not you think well you're not alone maybe you're you're not alone alone maybe you're you're not alone alone maybe you're you're not alone socially you're not alone familial maybe socially you're not alone familial maybe socially you're not alone familial maybe you're not alone metaphysically as well you're not alone metaphysically as well you're not alone metaphysically as well you know there there's an insistence and you know there there's an insistence and you know there there's an insistence and I think it's true there's an insistence I think it's true there's an insistence I think it's true there's an insistence for example in the old and the New for example in the old and the New for example in the old and the New Testament alike that Testament alike that Testament alike that the more Darkness you're willing to the more Darkness you're willing to the more Darkness you're willing to voluntarily encounter the more likely it voluntarily encounter the more likely it voluntarily encounter the more likely it is that the spirit of Abraham and the is that the spirit of Abraham and the is that the spirit of Abraham and the Patriarchs will walk with you and I Patriarchs will walk with you and I Patriarchs will walk with you and I think that's right like I I think it's think that's right like I I think it's think that's right like I I think it's sort of technically true in that the sort of technically true in that the sort of technically true in that the best parts of yourself make themselves best parts of yourself make themselves best parts of yourself make themselves manifest if you want to think about it manifest if you want to think about it manifest if you want to think about it that way the best parts of yourself that way the best parts of yourself that way the best parts of yourself whatever that means make themselves whatever that means make themselves whatever that means make themselves manifest when manifest when manifest when you're contending actively and you're contending actively and you're contending actively and voluntarily with the most difficult voluntarily with the most difficult voluntarily with the most difficult challenges why wouldn't it be that way challenges why wouldn't it be that way challenges why wouldn't it be that way way and then you could think well that's way and then you could think well that's way and then you could think well that's yourself it's like well are the best yourself it's like well are the best yourself it's like well are the best unrevealed parts of you unrevealed parts of you unrevealed parts of you yourself well no they're a kind of yourself well no they're a kind of yourself well no they're a kind of metaphysical reality they're not yet metaphysical reality they're not yet metaphysical reality they're not yet manifest they only exist in potential manifest they only exist in potential manifest they only exist in potential they transcend anything you're currently they transcend anything you're currently they transcend anything you're currently capable of but they have an existence

capable of but they have an existence capable of but they have an existence you could call that yourself but like it you could call that yourself but like it you could call that yourself but like it was yung's contention for example with was yung's contention for example with was yung's contention for example with regards to such terminology that the regards to such terminology that the regards to such terminology that the reason we use the term self instead of reason we use the term self instead of reason we use the term self instead of God is because when God was dispensed God is because when God was dispensed God is because when God was dispensed with let's say by the processes n with let's say by the processes n with let's say by the processes n described we just found the same thing described we just found the same thing described we just found the same thing deep within the instinctive realm let's deep within the instinctive realm let's deep within the instinctive realm let's say we found it at the bottom of the say we found it at the bottom of the say we found it at the bottom of the things instead of at the top it's like things instead of at the top it's like things instead of at the top it's like it doesn't matter it doesn't matter it doesn't matter it doesn't matter it doesn't matter it doesn't matter fundamentally what matters is whether or fundamentally what matters is whether or fundamentally what matters is whether or not that's a not that's a not that's a reality and I think it's the fundamental reality and I think it's the fundamental reality and I think it's the fundamental reality because I do think reality because I do think reality because I do think that the deeper you delve into things that the deeper you delve into things that the deeper you delve into things this is what happens to Moses when he this is what happens to Moses when he this is what happens to Moses when he encounters the burning bush so Moses is encounters the burning bush so Moses is encounters the burning bush so Moses is just going about his life he's a just going about his life he's a just going about his life he's a Shepherd he's an adult he has wives he Shepherd he's an adult he has wives he Shepherd he's an adult he has wives he has children he has responsibilities has children he has responsibilities has children he has responsibilities he's left his home and he's established he's left his home and he's established he's left his home and he's established himself and so things are pretty good himself and so things are pretty good himself and so things are pretty good for for for Moses and then he's out by Mount Corb in Moses and then he's out by Mount Corb in Moses and then he's out by Mount Corb in that story but it's the central mountain that story but it's the central mountain that story but it's the central mountain of the world it's the same Mountain as of the world it's the same Mountain as of the world it's the same Mountain as SI which is the place where Heaven and SI which is the place where Heaven and SI which is the place where Heaven and Earth touch and he sees something that Earth touch and he sees something that Earth touch and he sees something that grabs his attention grabs his attention grabs his attention right that's the burning bush and Bush right that's the burning bush and Bush right that's the burning bush and Bush is a tree that's life that's the tree of is a tree that's life that's the tree of is a tree that's life that's the tree of life and the fact that it's on fire is life and the fact that it's on fire is life and the fact that it's on fire is that's life ex exaggerated because that's life ex exaggerated because that's life ex exaggerated because everything that's alive is on fire and everything that's alive is on fire and everything that's alive is on fire and so what calls to Moses is like the so what calls to Moses is like the so what calls to Moses is like the spirit of being itself and it it tracks spirit of being itself and it it tracks spirit of being itself and it it tracks him off the Beaten Track and he decides him off the Beaten Track and he decides him off the Beaten Track and he decides to go to go to go investigate so Moses is everyone who

investigate so Moses is everyone who investigate so Moses is everyone who goes off the Beaten Track to investigate goes off the Beaten Track to investigate goes off the Beaten Track to investigate and so as he investigates he delves more and so as he investigates he delves more and so as he investigates he delves more and more deep ly until he starts to and more deep ly until he starts to and more deep ly until he starts to understand that he's now walking on understand that he's now walking on understand that he's now walking on sacred ground so he takes off his shoes sacred ground so he takes off his shoes sacred ground so he takes off his shoes and that's a symbolic reference of and that's a symbolic reference of and that's a symbolic reference of identity transformation he's no longer identity transformation he's no longer identity transformation he's no longer walking the same path he no longer has walking the same path he no longer has walking the same path he no longer has the same identity he's in a state of the same identity he's in a state of the same identity he's in a state of flux and that's when what happens is flux and that's when what happens is flux and that's when what happens is that he continues to interact with this that he continues to interact with this that he continues to interact with this calling and Moses calling and Moses calling and Moses asks what it is that's being revealed asks what it is that's being revealed asks what it is that's being revealed and God says I'm the spirit of being and God says I'm the spirit of being and God says I'm the spirit of being itself that's basically the answer I am itself that's basically the answer I am itself that's basically the answer I am what I am it's it's a more complex what I am it's it's a more complex what I am it's it's a more complex utterance than that I am what I will be utterance than that I am what I will be utterance than that I am what I will be I am what was becoming it's all of that I am what was becoming it's all of that I am what was becoming it's all of that at the same time it's the spirit of at the same time it's the spirit of at the same time it's the spirit of being that's speaking to him the spirit being that's speaking to him the spirit being that's speaking to him the spirit of being and becoming and it tells Moses of being and becoming and it tells Moses of being and becoming and it tells Moses that he now because he's delved so that he now because he's delved so that he now because he's delved so deeply into something so compelling his deeply into something so compelling his deeply into something so compelling his identity is transformed and he's become identity is transformed and he's become identity is transformed and he's become the leader who can speak truth to power the leader who can speak truth to power the leader who can speak truth to power and so he allies himself with his and so he allies himself with his and so he allies himself with his brother Aaron who's the political arm brother Aaron who's the political arm brother Aaron who's the political arm and who can communicate and he goes back and who can communicate and he goes back and who can communicate and he goes back to Egypt to confront the Tyrant and to Egypt to confront the Tyrant and to Egypt to confront the Tyrant and that's that's an indication of that idea that's that's an indication of that idea that's that's an indication of that idea that if you wrestle with life properly that if you wrestle with life properly that if you wrestle with life properly that the spirit of being and becoming that the spirit of being and becoming that the spirit of being and becoming walks with you and it's like I how can walks with you and it's like I how can walks with you and it's like I how can that not be true because the the that not be true because the the that not be true because the the contrary would be that there would be no contrary would be that there would be no contrary would be that there would be no growth in challenge well

growth in challenge well growth in challenge well that's you have to be infinitely that's you have to be infinitely that's you have to be infinitely nihilistic to believe that it's obvious nihilistic to believe that it's obvious nihilistic to believe that it's obvious but it's also just fascinating that but it's also just fascinating that but it's also just fascinating that hardship is the thing that is um that hardship is the thing that is um that hardship is the thing that is um that ends up being the Catalyst for delving ends up being the Catalyst for delving ends up being the Catalyst for delving deeply it's hardship voluntarily deeply it's hardship voluntarily deeply it's hardship voluntarily undertaken well and it's crucially true undertaken well and it's crucially true undertaken well and it's crucially true look if you bring someone into therapy look if you bring someone into therapy look if you bring someone into therapy let's say they're afraid of elevators let's say they're afraid of elevators let's say they're afraid of elevators and you trick them into getting near an and you trick them into getting near an and you trick them into getting near an elevator you'll make them worse but if elevator you'll make them worse but if elevator you'll make them worse but if you if you negotiate with them so that you if you negotiate with them so that you if you negotiate with them so that they voluntarily move towards the they voluntarily move towards the they voluntarily move towards the elevator elevator elevator on their own on their own on their own recognizance they they'll overcome their recognizance they they'll overcome their recognizance they they'll overcome their fear and they become generally braver fear and they become generally braver fear and they become generally braver but it has to be voluntary see I got to but it has to be voluntary see I got to but it has to be voluntary see I got to push back and explore with you the push back and explore with you the push back and explore with you the question of voluntarily yeah let's look question of voluntarily yeah let's look question of voluntarily yeah let's look at n yeah he suffered through several at n yeah he suffered through several at n yeah he suffered through several health issues throughout his life health issues throughout his life health issues throughout his life migraines eyesight issues digestive migraines eyesight issues digestive migraines eyesight issues digestive problems depression with suicidal problems depression with suicidal problems depression with suicidal thoughts and yet he is one of the thoughts and yet he is one of the thoughts and yet he is one of the greatest Minds in the history of greatest Minds in the history of greatest Minds in the history of humanity so were these problems that he humanity so were these problems that he humanity so were these problems that he was suffering arguably was suffering arguably was suffering arguably involuntarily a feature or a bug that's involuntarily a feature or a bug that's involuntarily a feature or a bug that's a good question the same thing happens a good question the same thing happens a good question the same thing happens in the story of job because job is a in the story of job because job is a in the story of job because job is a good man God himself admits it and the good man God himself admits it and the good man God himself admits it and the the Satan comes along and says to God I the Satan comes along and says to God I the Satan comes along and says to God I I see you're pretty proud of your your I see you're pretty proud of your your I see you're pretty proud of your your man there job God says yeah he's doing man there job God says yeah he's doing man there job God says yeah he's doing pretty well and Satan says I think it's pretty well and Satan says I think it's pretty well and Satan says I think it's just because things are easy for him let

just because things are easy for him let just because things are easy for him let me have a crack at him and see what me have a crack at him and see what me have a crack at him and see what happens and God says yeah I think you're happens and God says yeah I think you're happens and God says yeah I think you're wrong do your worst right and that's how wrong do your worst right and that's how wrong do your worst right and that's how people feel when those slings and arrows people feel when those slings and arrows people feel when those slings and arrows come at them let's say like n well job's come at them let's say like n well job's come at them let's say like n well job's response to that now the story is set up response to that now the story is set up response to that now the story is set up so that what befalls job is actually so that what befalls job is actually so that what befalls job is actually quite arbitrary right these catastrophes quite arbitrary right these catastrophes quite arbitrary right these catastrophes that you're describing the volunteerism that you're describing the volunteerism that you're describing the volunteerism in job is his refusal to despair even in in job is his refusal to despair even in in job is his refusal to despair even in the face of that adversity and that the face of that adversity and that the face of that adversity and that seems like something like an expression seems like something like an expression seems like something like an expression of voluntary free will he refuses to of voluntary free will he refuses to of voluntary free will he refuses to lose faith and the the way the story lose faith and the the way the story lose faith and the the way the story ends is that job get get everything back ends is that job get get everything back ends is that job get get everything back and more and you know so that's a and more and you know so that's a and more and you know so that's a descent and Ascent story and a cynic descent and Ascent story and a cynic descent and Ascent story and a cynic might say well the ends don't justify might say well the ends don't justify might say well the ends don't justify the means and I would say fair enough the means and I would say fair enough the means and I would say fair enough but that's a pretty shallow but that's a pretty shallow but that's a pretty shallow interpretation of the story what it interpretation of the story what it interpretation of the story what it indicates instead is that if you're indicates instead is that if you're indicates instead is that if you're fortunate because let's not forget that fortunate because let's not forget that fortunate because let's not forget that and and and you optimize your attitude even in the you optimize your attitude even in the you optimize your attitude even in the face of adversity that there it's not face of adversity that there it's not face of adversity that there it's not infrequently the case that your fortunes infrequently the case that your fortunes infrequently the case that your fortunes will reverse you know and I found that will reverse you know and I found that will reverse you know and I found that in many in many in many situations the situations the situations the journalists journalists journalists whose who whose goal was most whose who whose goal was most whose who whose goal was most malicious in relationship to me who were malicious in relationship to me who were malicious in relationship to me who were most concerned most concerned most concerned with improving their own what would you with improving their own what would you with improving their own what would you say fostering their own notoriety and say fostering their own notoriety and say fostering their own notoriety and gaining social status at my expense were

gaining social status at my expense were gaining social status at my expense were the ones who did me the greatest favor the ones who did me the greatest favor the ones who did me the greatest favor those were the interview that went those were the interview that went those were the interview that went viral and so that's that's interesting viral and so that's that's interesting viral and so that's that's interesting you know because they were definitely you know because they were definitely you know because they were definitely the places where the most disaster was the places where the most disaster was the places where the most disaster was at hand and I felt that in the aftermath at hand and I felt that in the aftermath at hand and I felt that in the aftermath every time that happened our my whole every time that happened our my whole every time that happened our my whole family was destabilized for like two family was destabilized for like two family was destabilized for like two months because things it wasn't obvious months because things it wasn't obvious months because things it wasn't obvious at all which way the dice were going to at all which way the dice were going to at all which way the dice were going to roll but you leaned into that so in a roll but you leaned into that so in a roll but you leaned into that so in a sense that there's this kind of a sense that there's this kind of a sense that there's this kind of a transformation from the involuntary to transformation from the involuntary to transformation from the involuntary to the voluntary basically saying bring it the voluntary basically saying bring it the voluntary basically saying bring it on that act of Bring It On turns the on that act of Bring It On turns the on that act of Bring It On turns the hardship involuntary hardship into hardship involuntary hardship into hardship involuntary hardship into voluntary hardship well not necessarily voluntary hardship well not necessarily voluntary hardship well not necessarily let's say but you could say that's your let's say but you could say that's your let's say but you could say that's your best bet well you know I'm I'm I'm never best bet well you know I'm I'm I'm never best bet well you know I'm I'm I'm never going to say that you can transcend all going to say that you can transcend all going to say that you can transcend all catastrophe with the right attitude catastrophe with the right attitude catastrophe with the right attitude because that's just too much to say but because that's just too much to say but because that's just too much to say but I could say I could say I could say that in a dire situation there's always that in a dire situation there's always that in a dire situation there's always an element of choice and if you make the an element of choice and if you make the an element of choice and if you make the right choices you you improve the degree right choices you you improve the degree right choices you you improve the degree you improve your chances of you improve your chances of you improve your chances of success to the maximal possible degree success to the maximal possible degree success to the maximal possible degree it might be too much to say but it might be too much to say but it might be too much to say but nevertheless is could be true Victor nevertheless is could be true Victor nevertheless is could be true Victor Franco Marcus Franco Marcus Franco Marcus aurelus well that's what the aurelus well that's what the aurelus well that's what the resurrection story proclaims is that you resurrection story proclaims is that you resurrection story proclaims is that you know even under the darkest imaginable

know even under the darkest imaginable know even under the darkest imaginable circumstances the circumstances the circumstances the fundamental finale is the victory of the fundamental finale is the victory of the fundamental finale is the victory of the good good good and that seems to me to be true do you have regrets when you look true do you have regrets when you look back at your back at your back at your life in the full analysis of life in the full analysis of life in the full analysis of it well as I said I was very ill for it well as I said I was very ill for it well as I said I was very ill for about 3 years and it was seriously about 3 years and it was seriously about 3 years and it was seriously brutal like every this is no lie every brutal like every this is no lie every brutal like every this is no lie every single minute of that 3 years was worse single minute of that 3 years was worse single minute of that 3 years was worse than any single time I'd ever than any single time I'd ever than any single time I'd ever experienced in my entire life up to experienced in my entire life up to experienced in my entire life up to that so that was rough was the roughest that so that was rough was the roughest that so that was rough was the roughest the physical or the physical or the physical or psychological pain just literal psychological pain just literal psychological pain just literal pain yep yeah I was walking like 10 to pain yep yeah I was walking like 10 to pain yep yeah I was walking like 10 to 12 miles a day rain or shine winter didn't day rain or shine winter didn't matter not good and it it was it was matter not good and it it was it was matter not good and it it was it was worse than that because as the day as the day progressed my pain levels would fall progressed my pain levels would fall progressed my pain levels would fall until until until by 10 11 at night when I was starting to by 10 11 at night when I was starting to by 10 11 at night when I was starting to get tired I was approaching what would you say I was approaching what would you say I was approaching something like an ordinary approaching something like an ordinary approaching something like an ordinary bad bad bad day but as soon as I went to sleep then day but as soon as I went to sleep then day but as soon as I went to sleep then the Clock Was reset and all the pain the Clock Was reset and all the pain the Clock Was reset and all the pain came back and so it it wasn't just that

came back and so it it wasn't just that came back and so it it wasn't just that I was in pain it was that sleep itself I was in pain it was that sleep itself I was in pain it was that sleep itself became an became an became an enemy and that's really rough man enemy and that's really rough man enemy and that's really rough man because sleep is where you take refuge because sleep is where you take refuge because sleep is where you take refuge you know you're worn out you're tired you know you're worn out you're tired you know you're worn out you're tired and you go to sleep and you wake up and and you go to sleep and you wake up and and you go to sleep and you wake up and it's generally it's something it's generally it's something it's generally it's something approximating a new day this was like approximating a new day this was like approximating a new day this was like Copus on steroids and that was it was Copus on steroids and that was it was Copus on steroids and that was it was very difficult to maintain hope in that very difficult to maintain hope in that very difficult to maintain hope in that because I would do what I could like because I would do what I could like because I would do what I could like there were times when it took me like an there were times when it took me like an there were times when it took me like an hour and a half in the morning to stand hour and a half in the morning to stand hour and a half in the morning to stand up up up and so I do all that and more or less and so I do all that and more or less and so I do all that and more or less put myself back into something remotely put myself back into something remotely put myself back into something remotely resembling Human by the end of the day resembling Human by the end of the day resembling Human by the end of the day and then I knew perfectly well exhausted and then I knew perfectly well exhausted and then I knew perfectly well exhausted if I fell asleep that I was going to be if I fell asleep that I was going to be if I fell asleep that I was going to be right at the bottom of the bloody Hill right at the bottom of the bloody Hill right at the bottom of the bloody Hill again and so after a couple of years of again and so after a couple of years of again and so after a couple of years of that it was definitely the fact that I that it was definitely the fact that I that it was definitely the fact that I had a family that that carried me had a family that that carried me had a family that that carried me through that what did you learn about through that what did you learn about through that what did you learn about yourself yourself yourself about yourself and about the human mind about yourself and about the human mind about yourself and about the human mind from that from all of those days well I from that from all of those days well I from that from all of those days well I think I learned more think I learned more think I learned more gratitude for the people I had around me gratitude for the people I had around me gratitude for the people I had around me and I and I and I learned how fortunate I was to have that learned how fortunate I was to have that learned how fortunate I was to have that and how crucial that was my wife learned and how crucial that was my wife learned and how crucial that was my wife learned something similar she she was diagnosed something similar she she was diagnosed something similar she she was diagnosed with a form of cancer that as far as we with a form of cancer that as far as we with a form of cancer that as far as we know killed every single person who ever know killed every single person who ever know killed every single person who ever had it except her it's quite rare um had it except her it's quite rare um had it except her it's quite rare um and her experience was that what

and her experience was that what and her experience was that what really gave her hope and played at least really gave her hope and played at least really gave her hope and played at least a role in Saving her was the realization a role in Saving her was the realization a role in Saving her was the realization of the depth of love that her son in of the depth of love that her son in of the depth of love that her son in particular had for her and that that particular had for her and that that particular had for her and that that says nothing about her relationship with says nothing about her relationship with says nothing about her relationship with Michaela with her daughter it just so Michaela with her daughter it just so Michaela with her daughter it just so happened that it was the revelation of happened that it was the revelation of happened that it was the revelation of that love that made Tammy understand the that love that made Tammy understand the that love that made Tammy understand the value of her life in a way that she value of her life in a way that she value of her life in a way that she wouldn't have realized of her own accord wouldn't have realized of her own accord wouldn't have realized of her own accord we're very very there's no difference we're very very there's no difference we're very very there's no difference between ourselves and the people that we between ourselves and the people that we between ourselves and the people that we love and there might be no difference love and there might be no difference love and there might be no difference between ourselves and everyone between ourselves and everyone between ourselves and everyone everywhere but we can at least realize everywhere but we can at least realize everywhere but we can at least realize that to begin that to begin that to begin with in the form of the people that we with in the form of the people that we with in the form of the people that we love and I hope I'm better at that than love and I hope I'm better at that than love and I hope I'm better at that than I was I think I'm better at it than I I was I think I'm better at it than I I was I think I'm better at it than I was I'm a lot more grateful for just was I'm a lot more grateful for just was I'm a lot more grateful for just ordinary ordinariness than I was because ordinary ordinariness than I was because ordinary ordinariness than I was because when I first recovered I remember I was when I first recovered I remember I was when I first recovered I remember I was standing first started to recover I was standing first started to recover I was standing first started to recover I was standing in this Pharmacy waiting for a standing in this Pharmacy waiting for a standing in this Pharmacy waiting for a prescription in little town and they prescription in little town and they prescription in little town and they weren't being particularly efficient weren't being particularly efficient weren't being particularly efficient about it and so I was in that standing about it and so I was in that standing about it and so I was in that standing in the aisle for like 20 minutes and I in the aisle for like 20 minutes and I in the aisle for like 20 minutes and I thought I'm not on fire I could just thought I'm not on fire I could just thought I'm not on fire I could just stand here for like the rest of my life stand here for like the rest of my life stand here for like the rest of my life just not being in pain and enjoying that just not being in pain and enjoying that just not being in pain and enjoying that and you know that would have been and you know that would have been and you know that would have been something that before that would have something that before that would have something that before that would have been you know I would have been been you know I would have been been you know I would have been impatient and RAR to go cuz I didn't impatient and RAR to go cuz I didn't impatient and RAR to go cuz I didn't have 20 minutes to stand in the middle have 20 minutes to stand in the middle have 20 minutes to stand in the middle of an of an of an and I thought well you know if if you're

and I thought well you know if if you're and I thought well you know if if you're just standing there and you're not on just standing there and you're not on just standing there and you're not on fire things are a lot better than they fire things are a lot better than they fire things are a lot better than they might be and I might be and I might be and I certainly I know that and I think I certainly I know that and I think I certainly I know that and I think I remember it almost all the time you gain remember it almost all the time you gain remember it almost all the time you gain a greater ability to appreciate the a greater ability to appreciate the a greater ability to appreciate the mundane moments of Life yeah definitely mundane moments of Life yeah definitely mundane moments of Life yeah definitely the miracle of the mundane right yeah I the miracle of the mundane right yeah I the miracle of the mundane right yeah I think n had think n had think n had that CU he was very ill and so that CU he was very ill and so that CU he was very ill and so I suspect he had you know and he was I suspect he had you know and he was I suspect he had you know and he was regarded by the inhabitants of the regarded by the inhabitants of the regarded by the inhabitants of the village that he lived in near the end of village that he lived in near the end of village that he lived in near the end of his life as something approximating a his life as something approximating a his life as something approximating a saint he apparently conducted himself saint he apparently conducted himself saint he apparently conducted himself very admirably despite all his suffering very admirably despite all his suffering very admirably despite all his suffering you know but that still there's this you know but that still there's this you know but that still there's this tension as there is in much of nicha's tension as there is in much of nicha's tension as there is in much of nicha's work between the um uh the miracle of work between the um uh the miracle of work between the um uh the miracle of the mundane appreciating the miracle of the mundane appreciating the miracle of the mundane appreciating the miracle of the mundane versus uh fearing the the mundane versus uh fearing the the mundane versus uh fearing the tyranny of the mediocre it's more than tyranny of the mediocre it's more than tyranny of the mediocre it's more than mediocre and resentful yes but that's mediocre and resentful yes but that's mediocre and resentful yes but that's you uh giving him a pass or seeing well you uh giving him a pass or seeing well you uh giving him a pass or seeing well fair enough you know there's a kind of I fair enough you know there's a kind of I fair enough you know there's a kind of I mean the tyranny of the mean the tyranny of the mean the tyranny of the mediocre I I always hated this idea that mediocre I I always hated this idea that mediocre I I always hated this idea that some people are better than others and I some people are better than others and I some people are better than others and I understand it but it's a dangerous idea understand it but it's a dangerous idea understand it but it's a dangerous idea this is why I like the story of Kan and this is why I like the story of Kan and this is why I like the story of Kan and Abel I would Abel I would Abel I would say because C is say because C is say because C is mediocre but that's because he refuses mediocre but that's because he refuses mediocre but that's because he refuses to do his best it's not something to do his best it's not something to do his best it's not something intrinsic to him and I actually think

intrinsic to him and I actually think intrinsic to him and I actually think that's the right formulation because you that's the right formulation because you that's the right formulation because you know I had people in my clinical know I had people in my clinical know I had people in my clinical practice who practice who practice who were they were lost in many dimensions were they were lost in many dimensions were they were lost in many dimensions from the perspective of comparison one from the perspective of comparison one from the perspective of comparison one woman I remember in particular who man woman I remember in particular who man woman I remember in particular who man she had a lot to contend with she was she had a lot to contend with she was she had a lot to contend with she was not educated she was not intelligent she not educated she was not intelligent she not educated she was not intelligent she had a brutal family like terrible had a brutal family like terrible had a brutal family like terrible history of psychiatric hospitalization um and when I met um and when I met her at a hospital she was an hospital she was an outpatient from the psychiatric ward and outpatient from the psychiatric ward and outpatient from the psychiatric ward and she had been in there with people that she had been in there with people that she had been in there with people that she thought were worse off than her and she thought were worse off than her and she thought were worse off than her and they were and that was a long way down they were and that was a long way down they were and that was a long way down that was like Dante's Inferno level down that was like Dante's Inferno level down that was like Dante's Inferno level down it was a long-term psychiatric impatient it was a long-term psychiatric impatient it was a long-term psychiatric impatient Ward some of the of the people had been Ward some of the of the people had been Ward some of the of the people had been there for 30 years it it made uh One there for 30 years it it made uh One there for 30 years it it made uh One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest look like a Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest look like a Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest look like a romantic romantic romantic comedy and she had come back to see if comedy and she had come back to see if comedy and she had come back to see if she could take some of those people for she could take some of those people for she could take some of those people for a walk and was trying to find out how to a walk and was trying to find out how to a walk and was trying to find out how to get permission to do it and so you get permission to do it and so you get permission to do it and so you know better better than other people know better better than other people know better better than other people some people are more intelligent some some people are more intelligent some some people are more intelligent some people are more beautiful some people people are more beautiful some people people are more beautiful some people are more athletic are more athletic are more athletic is maybe it's possible for everyone at is maybe it's possible for everyone at is maybe it's possible for everyone at all levels of attainment to strive

all levels of attainment to strive all levels of attainment to strive towards the towards the towards the good and maybe those talents that are good and maybe those talents that are good and maybe those talents that are given to people unfairly don't privilege given to people unfairly don't privilege given to people unfairly don't privilege them in relationship to their moral them in relationship to their moral them in relationship to their moral conduct and I I think that's true like conduct and I I think that's true like conduct and I I think that's true like there's no evidence for example that there's no evidence for example that there's no evidence for example that there's any correlation whatsoever there's any correlation whatsoever there's any correlation whatsoever between intelligence and morality you're not better because morality you're not better because you're smart and what that also implies you're smart and what that also implies you're smart and what that also implies is if you're smart you can be a lot is if you're smart you can be a lot is if you're smart you can be a lot better at being worse better at being worse better at being worse I think for myself I'm just I think for myself I'm just I think for myself I'm just afraid of dismissing people because of afraid of dismissing people because of afraid of dismissing people because of my perception of them yeah well that's my perception of them yeah well that's my perception of them yeah well that's why we have that metaphysical why we have that metaphysical why we have that metaphysical presumption that everybody's made in the presumption that everybody's made in the presumption that everybody's made in the image of God right despite that immense image of God right despite that immense image of God right despite that immense diversity of apparent ability there's diversity of apparent ability there's diversity of apparent ability there's that underlying metaphysical assumption that underlying metaphysical assumption that underlying metaphysical assumption that yeah we all vary in that yeah we all vary in that yeah we all vary in our perceived and actual utility in our perceived and actual utility in our perceived and actual utility in relationship to any PR proximal goal but relationship to any PR proximal goal but relationship to any PR proximal goal but all of that's independent of the all of that's independent of the all of that's independent of the question of axiomatic worth and that question of axiomatic worth and that question of axiomatic worth and that Preposterous as that notion appears to Preposterous as that notion appears to Preposterous as that notion appears to be it seems to me that societies that be it seems to me that societies that be it seems to me that societies that accept it as a fundamental aaic accept it as a fundamental aaic accept it as a fundamental aaic presumption are always the societies presumption are always the societies presumption are always the societies that you'd want to live in if you had a that you'd want to live in if you had a that you'd want to live in if you had a choice and that to me is an existence choice and that to me is an existence choice and that to me is an existence proof for the utility of the proof for the utility of the proof for the utility of the presumption and also you know if you presumption and also you know if you presumption and also you know if you treat people like that in your life treat people like that in your life treat people like that in your life every encounter you have you make the every encounter you have you make the every encounter you have you make the assumption assumption assumption that it's it's an assumption of what

that it's it's an assumption of what that it's it's an assumption of what would you it's radical equality of worth would you it's radical equality of worth would you it's radical equality of worth despite individual variance in ability despite individual variance in ability despite individual variance in ability something like that man your something like that man your something like that man your interactions go way better I mean interactions go way better I mean interactions go way better I mean everyone wants to be treated that way everyone wants to be treated that way everyone wants to be treated that way look here's a developmental sequence for look here's a developmental sequence for look here's a developmental sequence for you naive and you naive and you naive and trusting hurt and cynical okay well is trusting hurt and cynical okay well is trusting hurt and cynical okay well is hurt and cynical better than naive and hurt and cynical better than naive and hurt and cynical better than naive and trusting it's like yeah trusting it's like yeah trusting it's like yeah probably is that where it ends how about probably is that where it ends how about probably is that where it ends how about cynical and cynical and cynical and trusting as step three right and then trusting as step three right and then trusting as step three right and then the trust becomes courage it's like yeah the trust becomes courage it's like yeah the trust becomes courage it's like yeah I'll put my AR my hand out for you but I'll put my AR my hand out for you but I'll put my AR my hand out for you but it's not cuz I'm a it's not cuz I'm a it's not cuz I'm a fool and I think that's right because fool and I think that's right because fool and I think that's right because that's the re-instantiation of that that's the re-instantiation of that that's the re-instantiation of that initial trust right that makes initial trust right that makes initial trust right that makes childhood magical and paradisal but it's childhood magical and paradisal but it's childhood magical and paradisal but it's the ad mixture of that with wisdom it's the ad mixture of that with wisdom it's the ad mixture of that with wisdom it's like like yeah you know we could be we like like yeah you know we could be we like like yeah you know we could be we could walk together could walk together could walk together uphill but that doesn't mean and I'll uphill but that doesn't mean and I'll uphill but that doesn't mean and I'll presume that that's your presume that that's your presume that that's your aim but that doesn't mean that I'm not aim but that doesn't mean that I'm not aim but that doesn't mean that I'm not going to watch what's a better life going to watch what's a better life going to watch what's a better life cynical and safe cynical and safe cynical and safe or hopeful and vulnerable to be hurt oh or hopeful and vulnerable to be hurt oh or hopeful and vulnerable to be hurt oh you you can't dispense with vulnerable you you can't dispense with vulnerable you you can't dispense with vulnerable to be hurt that's that's the other to be hurt that's that's the other to be hurt that's that's the other realization it's like you're going to realization it's like you're going to realization it's like you're going to stake your life on something you can stake your life on something you can stake your life on something you can stake your life on security but it's not stake your life on security but it's not stake your life on security but it's not going to help you don't have that option going to help you don't have that option going to help you don't have that option so what do you do when you're betrayed

so what do you do when you're betrayed so what do you do when you're betrayed ultimately by some people you come ultimately by some people you come ultimately by some people you come across across across grieve and look grieve and look grieve and look elsewhere do what you can to elsewhere do what you can to elsewhere do what you can to forgive and not least so you lighten forgive and not least so you lighten forgive and not least so you lighten your own your own your own burden maybe do what you can to help the burden maybe do what you can to help the burden maybe do what you can to help the person who betrayed person who betrayed person who betrayed you and if that all proves impossible you and if that all proves impossible you and if that all proves impossible then then then wash your hands of it wash your hands of it wash your hands of it and move on to the next adventure and do and move on to the next adventure and do and move on to the next adventure and do it again yeah it again yeah it again yeah yeah boy this life something else uh so yeah boy this life something else uh so yeah boy this life something else uh so we've been talking about some heavy we've been talking about some heavy we've been talking about some heavy difficult topics and you've talked about difficult topics and you've talked about difficult topics and you've talked about truth in your n lectures and elsewhere truth in your n lectures and elsewhere truth in your n lectures and elsewhere when you think when you write when you when you think when you write when you when you think when you write when you speak how do you find what is true you speak how do you find what is true you speak how do you find what is true you know Hemingway said uh all you have to know Hemingway said uh all you have to know Hemingway said uh all you have to do is write one true sentence yeah how do is write one true sentence yeah how do is write one true sentence yeah how do you do that well I would say first do you do that well I would say first do you do that well I would say first that you practice that it's like it that that you practice that it's like it that that you practice that it's like it that question is something and and Hemingway question is something and and Hemingway question is something and and Hemingway knew this at least to some degree and he knew this at least to some degree and he knew this at least to some degree and he certainly wrote about it is that you certainly wrote about it is that you certainly wrote about it is that you have to orient your life have to orient your life have to orient your life upward as completely as you can because upward as completely as you can because upward as completely as you can because otherwise you can't distinguish between otherwise you can't distinguish between otherwise you can't distinguish between truth and falsehood it it has to be a truth and falsehood it it has to be a truth and falsehood it it has to be a practice know and for me I started to practice know and for me I started to practice know and for me I started to become serious about that practice when become serious about that practice when become serious about that practice when I realized I realized I realized that it was individ ual it was the that it was individ ual it was the that it was individ ual it was the immorality of the individual the immorality of the individual the immorality of the individual the resentful Craven deceitful immorality of resentful Craven deceitful immorality of resentful Craven deceitful immorality of the individual that led to the terrible

the individual that led to the terrible the individual that led to the terrible atrocities that humans engage in that atrocities that humans engage in that atrocities that humans engage in that make us doubt even our own worth I make us doubt even our own worth I make us doubt even our own worth I became completely convinced of that that became completely convinced of that that became completely convinced of that that the fundamental root cause of evil let's the fundamental root cause of evil let's the fundamental root cause of evil let's say wasn't economic or say wasn't economic or say wasn't economic or sociological that it was spiritual just sociological that it was spiritual just sociological that it was spiritual just psychological and that if that was the psychological and that if that was the psychological and that if that was the case you had an ex existential case you had an ex existential case you had an ex existential responsibility to aim upward and to tell responsibility to aim upward and to tell responsibility to aim upward and to tell the truth and that everything depends on the truth and that everything depends on the truth and that everything depends on that and I became convinced of that and that and I became convinced of that and that and I became convinced of that and so so so then then then look you set your path with your look you set your path with your look you set your path with your orientation that that's how your orientation that that's how your orientation that that's how your perceptions work as soon as you have a perceptions work as soon as you have a perceptions work as soon as you have a goal a pathway opens up to you and you goal a pathway opens up to you and you goal a pathway opens up to you and you can see it and the world divides itself can see it and the world divides itself can see it and the world divides itself into obstacles and and things that move into obstacles and and things that move into obstacles and and things that move you forward and so the pathway that's in you forward and so the pathway that's in you forward and so the pathway that's in front of you depends on your aim the front of you depends on your aim the front of you depends on your aim the things you perceive are concretizations things you perceive are concretizations things you perceive are concretizations of your aim if your aim is untrue then of your aim if your aim is untrue then of your aim if your aim is untrue then you won't be able to tell the difference you won't be able to tell the difference you won't be able to tell the difference between truth and falsehood and you between truth and falsehood and you between truth and falsehood and you might say well how do you know your aim might say well how do you know your aim might say well how do you know your aim is true it's like well you course is true it's like well you course is true it's like well you course correct continually and you can aim correct continually and you can aim correct continually and you can aim towards the ultimate are you ever sure towards the ultimate are you ever sure towards the ultimate are you ever sure that your aim is the right direction you that your aim is the right direction you that your aim is the right direction you become increasingly accurate in your become increasingly accurate in your become increasingly accurate in your apprehension is it like part of the apprehension is it like part of the apprehension is it like part of the process to cross the line to uh to go process to cross the line to uh to go process to cross the line to uh to go outside the over to window to dip a to outside the over to window to dip a to outside the over to window to dip a to outside the open the window for a bit of outside the open the window for a bit of outside the open the window for a bit of course that's what you do in part and course that's what you do in part and course that's what you do in part and play um I was at the comedy Mothership play um I was at the comedy Mothership play um I was at the comedy Mothership and every single comedian was like and every single comedian was like and every single comedian was like completely reprehensible all they were

completely reprehensible all they were completely reprehensible all they were doing was saying things that you you doing was saying things that you you doing was saying things that you you can't say well but it was in play what can't say well but it was in play what can't say well but it was in play what I'm trying to do in my lectures is I'm I'm trying to do in my lectures is I'm I'm trying to do in my lectures is I'm on the edge like I have a question I'm on the edge like I have a question I'm on the edge like I have a question I'm trying to address and I'm trying to trying to address and I'm trying to trying to address and I'm trying to figure it out I don't know where the figure it out I don't know where the figure it out I don't know where the conversation is going truly like it's conversation is going truly like it's conversation is going truly like it's it's an exploration and I think the it's an exploration and I think the it's an exploration and I think the reason that the audience is responding reason that the audience is responding reason that the audience is responding is because they can feel that it's a is because they can feel that it's a is because they can feel that it's a Highwire act you know and I could fail Highwire act you know and I could fail Highwire act you know and I could fail and you know my lectures have degrees of and you know my lectures have degrees of and you know my lectures have degrees of success sometimes I get real fortunate success sometimes I get real fortunate success sometimes I get real fortunate and there's a perfect narrative Arc I and there's a perfect narrative Arc I and there's a perfect narrative Arc I have a question I'm investigating it it have a question I'm investigating it it have a question I'm investigating it it comes to a punchline conclusion just at comes to a punchline conclusion just at comes to a punchline conclusion just at the right time and it's like the whole the right time and it's like the whole the right time and it's like the whole Act is complete and sometimes it's more Act is complete and sometimes it's more Act is complete and sometimes it's more fragmented but I can tell when the fragmented but I can tell when the fragmented but I can tell when the audience is engaged because everyone's audience is engaged because everyone's audience is engaged because everyone's silent you know except maybe when silent you know except maybe when silent you know except maybe when they're laughing but there's a kind of they're laughing but there's a kind of they're laughing but there's a kind of sense that you're arguing with yourself sense that you're arguing with yourself sense that you're arguing with yourself when you're lecturing it's beautiful when you're lecturing it's beautiful when you're lecturing it's beautiful it's it's really beautiful and Powerful it's it's really beautiful and Powerful it's it's really beautiful and Powerful to watch like nche does the same there's to watch like nche does the same there's to watch like nche does the same there's contradictions in what you're saying contradictions in what you're saying contradictions in what you're saying there's a struggle of what you're saying there's a struggle of what you're saying there's a struggle of what you're saying but I do think that when you're doing but I do think that when you're doing but I do think that when you're doing the same on the internet you get the same on the internet you get the same on the internet you get punished for the deviations you get punished for the deviations you get punished for the deviations you get punished for the exploration especially punished for the exploration especially punished for the exploration especially when that explores outside the over to when that explores outside the over to when that explores outside the over to window look if you're going to play hard window look if you're going to play hard window look if you're going to play hard in a conversation to explore you're in a conversation to explore you're in a conversation to explore you're going to say things that cost that are going to say things that cost that are going to say things that cost that are edgy right that are going to cause edgy right that are going to cause edgy right that are going to cause trouble and that might be wrong and that trouble and that might be wrong and that trouble and that might be wrong and that that's another reason why Free Speech that's another reason why Free Speech that's another reason why Free Speech protection is so important you actually protection is so important you actually protection is so important you actually have to protect the right let's say in have to protect the right let's say in have to protect the right let's say in the optimal circumstance you have to the optimal circumstance you have to the optimal circumstance you have to protect the right of well-meaning people protect the right of well-meaning people protect the right of well-meaning people to be wrong now you probably have to go to be wrong now you probably have to go to be wrong now you probably have to go beyond that to prot truly protect it you

beyond that to prot truly protect it you beyond that to prot truly protect it you have to even protect the right of people have to even protect the right of people have to even protect the right of people who aren't meaning well to be wrong you who aren't meaning well to be wrong you who aren't meaning well to be wrong you know and and we also need that because know and and we also need that because know and and we also need that because we're not always well-meaning but but I we're not always well-meaning but but I we're not always well-meaning but but I don't you know the alternative to that don't you know the alternative to that don't you know the alternative to that protection would be the insistence that protection would be the insistence that protection would be the insistence that people only say what was 100% right all people only say what was 100% right all people only say what was 100% right all the time I'm also I guess the is a a the time I'm also I guess the is a a the time I'm also I guess the is a a call to our fellow humans not to reduce call to our fellow humans not to reduce call to our fellow humans not to reduce a person to a a person to a a person to a particular particular particular statement this is what the internet statement this is what the internet statement this is what the internet tends to want to do especially if it's tends to want to do especially if it's tends to want to do especially if it's the worst thing they ever said yeah yeah the worst thing they ever said yeah yeah the worst thing they ever said yeah yeah yeah cuz God well anyone judged by that yeah cuz God well anyone judged by that yeah cuz God well anyone judged by that standard is doomed unless they're silent standard is doomed unless they're silent standard is doomed unless they're silent but it also just makes you not want to but it also just makes you not want to but it also just makes you not want to play yeah right not want to uh take sort play yeah right not want to uh take sort play yeah right not want to uh take sort of radical thought experiments and carry of radical thought experiments and carry of radical thought experiments and carry out that's kind of the definition of a out that's kind of the definition of a out that's kind of the definition of a totalitarian state no one's playing in a totalitarian state no one's playing in a totalitarian state no one's playing in a total State ever but in this case it's total State ever but in this case it's total State ever but in this case it's an emergent one yeah with Psychopaths uh an emergent one yeah with Psychopaths uh an emergent one yeah with Psychopaths uh roaming the landscape well thean that roaming the landscape well thean that roaming the landscape well thean that that might be the general pattern of that might be the general pattern of that might be the general pattern of totalitarianism well in totalitarianism totalitarianism well in totalitarianism totalitarianism well in totalitarianism there's usually one psychopath not there's usually one psychopath not there's usually one psychopath not multiple yeah but everyone well everyone multiple yeah but everyone well everyone multiple yeah but everyone well everyone else is complicit at least in their else is complicit at least in their else is complicit at least in their silence yeah does the study of the silence yeah does the study of the silence yeah does the study of the pathology of psychopaths online wear on pathology of psychopaths online wear on pathology of psychopaths online wear on you yes definitely do you ever consider you yes definitely do you ever consider you yes definitely do you ever consider doing a less of that yes doing a less of that yes doing a less of that yes yes yes definitely but you know probably I experienced most of that

know probably I experienced most of that on on on X but that's also where I found most of X but that's also where I found most of X but that's also where I found most of my guests that's also where I get a my guests that's also where I get a my guests that's also where I get a sense of the Zeitgeist which is sense of the Zeitgeist which is sense of the Zeitgeist which is necessary for example if you're going to necessary for example if you're going to necessary for example if you're going to be a podcast host it's necessary for me be a podcast host it's necessary for me be a podcast host it's necessary for me to make my lectures on point and up to to make my lectures on point and up to to make my lectures on point and up to date to get a sampling of the the date to get a sampling of the the date to get a sampling of the the current moment you have to be of the current moment you have to be of the current moment you have to be of the moment in in many ways to function at a moment in in many ways to function at a moment in in many ways to function at a high level is there a price there's a high level is there a price there's a high level is there a price there's a price to be paid for that because you're you're exposed to everything in a you're you're exposed to everything in a sense and and you can also over sample sense and and you can also over sample sense and and you can also over sample the darkness yeah yeah definitely and it the darkness yeah yeah definitely and it the darkness yeah yeah definitely and it can make you more and more cynical yeah can make you more and more cynical yeah can make you more and more cynical yeah well it's a danger right yeah yeah well well it's a danger right yeah yeah well well it's a danger right yeah yeah well luckily for me you know I have many luckily for me you know I have many luckily for me you know I have many things that counterbalance that the things that counterbalance that the things that counterbalance that the familiar relationships we talked about familiar relationships we talked about familiar relationships we talked about the friendships the and then also all of the friendships the and then also all of the friendships the and then also all of the public things I do are positive the the public things I do are positive the the public things I do are positive the lecture tours for example which I'm on a lecture tours for example which I'm on a lecture tours for example which I'm on a lot they're basically 100% positive so lot they're basically 100% positive so lot they're basically 100% positive so I'm very I'm very I'm very well butress against that that's great well butress against that that's great well butress against that that's great to hear darker element as a fan in the to hear darker element as a fan in the to hear darker element as a fan in the arena watching the Gladiators fight your arena watching the Gladiators fight your arena watching the Gladiators fight your mind is too important to be lost to the mind is too important to be lost to the mind is too important to be lost to the cynical to the to the battles with the cynical to the to the battles with the cynical to the to the battles with the uh with the abyss well you you have a uh with the abyss well you you have a uh with the abyss well you you have a moral obligation too to maintain a moral obligation too to maintain a moral obligation too to maintain a positive positive orientation it's a positive positive orientation it's a positive positive orientation it's a moral moral moral obligation the future is of course rif obligation the future is of course rif obligation the future is of course rif with contradictory possibilities and I

with contradictory possibilities and I with contradictory possibilities and I suppose in some ways the more rapid the suppose in some ways the more rapid the suppose in some ways the more rapid the rate of transformation the more rate of transformation the more rate of transformation the more possibility for good and for evil is possibility for good and for evil is possibility for good and for evil is making itself manifest at any moment but making itself manifest at any moment but making itself manifest at any moment but it looks like the best way to ensure it looks like the best way to ensure it looks like the best way to ensure that the future is everything we wish it that the future is everything we wish it that the future is everything we wish it would be is to maintain faith that that would be is to maintain faith that that would be is to maintain faith that that is the direction that will prevail and I is the direction that will prevail and I is the direction that will prevail and I think that's a form of moral commitment think that's a form of moral commitment think that's a form of moral commitment when it's not just naive optimism well when it's not just naive optimism well when it's not just naive optimism well Jordan thank you for being courageous Jordan thank you for being courageous Jordan thank you for being courageous and being the light amid the darkness and being the light amid the darkness and being the light amid the darkness for many many people and thank you for for many many people and thank you for for many many people and thank you for once again talking today thanks very once again talking today thanks very once again talking today thanks very much for the invitation and for the much for the invitation and for the much for the invitation and for the conversation much always a pleasure to conversation much always a pleasure to conversation much always a pleasure to see you and uh you're doing a pretty see you and uh you're doing a pretty see you and uh you're doing a pretty decent job yourself about there decent job yourself about there decent job yourself about there Illuminating dark corners and and Illuminating dark corners and and Illuminating dark corners and and bringing people upward I mean you've got bringing people upward I mean you've got bringing people upward I mean you've got a remarkable thing going with your a remarkable thing going with your a remarkable thing going with your podcast and you're very good at it thank podcast and you're very good at it thank podcast and you're very good at it thank you Jordan thanks for listening to this you Jordan thanks for listening to this you Jordan thanks for listening to this conversation with Jordan Peterson to conversation with Jordan Peterson to conversation with Jordan Peterson to support this podcast please check out support this podcast please check out support this podcast please check out our sponsors in the description and now our sponsors in the description and now our sponsors in the description and now let me leave you some words from let me leave you some words from let me leave you some words from friedrick friedrick friedrick N I would like to learn more and more to N I would like to learn more and more to N I would like to learn more and more to see as beautiful that which is necessary see as beautiful that which is necessary see as beautiful that which is necessary in things then I shall be one of those in things then I shall be one of those in things then I shall be one of those who make things who make things who make things beautiful thank you for listening and beautiful thank you for listening and beautiful thank you for listening and hope to see you next time