Douglas Murray: Putin, Zelenskyy, Trump, Israel, Netanyahu, Hamas & Gaza | Lex Fridman Podcast #463

They end up chanting in front of him, They end up chanting in front of him, "Viva "Viva "Viva Lamuete, long live death." They have Lamuete, long live death." They have Lamuete, long live death." They have their counterparts today. They are the their counterparts today. They are the their counterparts today. They are the people who who taunt Americans, people who who taunt Americans, people who who taunt Americans, Westerners, Israelis, and others with Westerners, Israelis, and others with Westerners, Israelis, and others with lines lines lines like, "We love death more than you love like, "We love death more than you love like, "We love death more than you love life." The following is a conversation with The following is a conversation with Douglas Murray, author of The War in the Douglas Murray, author of The War in the Douglas Murray, author of The War in the West, The Madness of Crowds, and his new West, The Madness of Crowds, and his new West, The Madness of Crowds, and his new book on democracies and death cults. We book on democracies and death cults. We book on democracies and death cults. We talk about Russia and Ukraine and about talk about Russia and Ukraine and about talk about Russia and Ukraine and about Israel and Gaza. Douglas has very strong Israel and Gaza. Douglas has very strong Israel and Gaza. Douglas has very strong views on these topics and he defends views on these topics and he defends views on these topics and he defends them brilliantly and fearlessly. As I them brilliantly and fearlessly. As I them brilliantly and fearlessly. As I always try to do for all topics, I will always try to do for all topics, I will always try to do for all topics, I will also talk to people who have different also talk to people who have different also talk to people who have different views from Douglas, including on the views from Douglas, including on the views from Douglas, including on the next episode of this next episode of this next episode of this podcast. We live in an era of online podcast. We live in an era of online podcast. We live in an era of online discourse where grifters, drama farmers, discourse where grifters, drama farmers, discourse where grifters, drama farmers, liars, bots, sickopants, and sociopaths liars, bots, sickopants, and sociopaths liars, bots, sickopants, and sociopaths roam the vast, beautiful, dark land of roam the vast, beautiful, dark land of roam the vast, beautiful, dark land of the internet. It's hard to know who to the internet. It's hard to know who to the internet. It's hard to know who to trust.

trust. trust. I believe no one is in possession of the I believe no one is in possession of the I believe no one is in possession of the entire truth, but some are more correct entire truth, but some are more correct entire truth, but some are more correct than others. Some are insightful and than others. Some are insightful and than others. Some are insightful and some are delusional. The problem is it's some are delusional. The problem is it's some are delusional. The problem is it's hard to tell which is which unless you hard to tell which is which unless you hard to tell which is which unless you use your mind with intellectual humility use your mind with intellectual humility use your mind with intellectual humility and with rigor. I recommend you listen and with rigor. I recommend you listen and with rigor. I recommend you listen to many sources who disagree with each to many sources who disagree with each to many sources who disagree with each other and try to pick up wisdom from other and try to pick up wisdom from other and try to pick up wisdom from each. Also, I recommend you visit the each. Also, I recommend you visit the each. Also, I recommend you visit the places in question as Douglas has, as I places in question as Douglas has, as I places in question as Douglas has, as I have, or at least talk face to face with have, or at least talk face to face with have, or at least talk face to face with people who have spent most of their people who have spent most of their people who have spent most of their lives living there, whether it's Israel, lives living there, whether it's Israel, lives living there, whether it's Israel, Palestine, Ukraine, or Palestine, Ukraine, or Palestine, Ukraine, or Russia. Let's try together to not be Russia. Let's try together to not be Russia. Let's try together to not be cogs in the machine of outrage, and cogs in the machine of outrage, and cogs in the machine of outrage, and instead to reach toward reason and instead to reach toward reason and instead to reach toward reason and compassion. compassion. compassion. There is no Hitler, Stalin, or Mao on There is no Hitler, Stalin, or Mao on There is no Hitler, Stalin, or Mao on the world stage today. Plus, there are the world stage today. Plus, there are the world stage today. Plus, there are thousands of nuclear weapons ready to thousands of nuclear weapons ready to thousands of nuclear weapons ready to fire. Human civilization hangs in the fire. Human civilization hangs in the fire. Human civilization hangs in the balance. The 21st century is a new balance. The 21st century is a new balance. The 21st century is a new geopolitical puzzle all of us are tasked geopolitical puzzle all of us are tasked geopolitical puzzle all of us are tasked with with with solving. Let's not mess it solving. Let's not mess it solving. Let's not mess it up. This is the Lexman podcast. To up. This is the Lexman podcast. To up. This is the Lexman podcast. To support it, please check out our support it, please check out our support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, sponsors in the description. And now, sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Douglas dear friends, here's Douglas dear friends, here's Douglas Murray. What have you understood about Murray. What have you understood about Murray. What have you understood about the war in Ukraine from uh your visits the war in Ukraine from uh your visits the war in Ukraine from uh your visits there? Just looking at the big picture

there? Just looking at the big picture there? Just looking at the big picture of your understanding of the invasion of of your understanding of the invasion of of your understanding of the invasion of February 24th, 2022 and the war in the 3 February 24th, 2022 and the war in the 3 February 24th, 2022 and the war in the 3 years since. Well, I mean, several years since. Well, I mean, several years since. Well, I mean, several things. There's things. There's things. There's a political angles which are forever a political angles which are forever a political angles which are forever changing. changing. changing. But on the human level, as as you know, But on the human level, as as you know, But on the human level, as as you know, if you visit troops, frontline troops, if you visit troops, frontline troops, if you visit troops, frontline troops, you have that admiration for people you have that admiration for people you have that admiration for people defending their country, defending their defending their country, defending their defending their country, defending their homes, defending their families. I'm homes, defending their families. I'm homes, defending their families. I'm struck by the way in which that is at a struck by the way in which that is at a struck by the way in which that is at a remove from the sort of political noise remove from the sort of political noise remove from the sort of political noise and the media noise and and much more. and the media noise and and much more. and the media noise and and much more. Um, it's very easy to get caught up in Um, it's very easy to get caught up in Um, it's very easy to get caught up in the twos and fros of today's news, but the twos and fros of today's news, but the twos and fros of today's news, but uh that to my mind is is that's the uh that to my mind is is that's the uh that to my mind is is that's the single thing that struck me most in my single thing that struck me most in my single thing that struck me most in my visits there uh is just um the the visits there uh is just um the the visits there uh is just um the the people I've met who who are fighting for people I've met who who are fighting for people I've met who who are fighting for a cause which at that level is a cause which at that level is a cause which at that level is unavoidable, undeniable. So the thing unavoidable, undeniable. So the thing unavoidable, undeniable. So the thing that struck you that's different from that struck you that's different from that struck you that's different from the the media turmoil is just the the the media turmoil is just the the the media turmoil is just the reality of war. Yeah, of course. I mean reality of war. Yeah, of course. I mean reality of war. Yeah, of course. I mean um you know people who um you know people who um you know people who uh have either lived uh have either lived uh have either lived under Russian occupation from invading under Russian occupation from invading under Russian occupation from invading armies and then come back out into the armies and then come back out into the armies and then come back out into the world having been liberated as in late world having been liberated as in late world having been liberated as in late 2022 or the people now organized most 2022 or the people now organized most 2022 or the people now organized most recently there in recent weeks who were recently there in recent weeks who were recently there in recent weeks who were just getting on with their job as

just getting on with their job as just getting on with their job as soldiers soldiers soldiers uh whilst the world was talking about uh whilst the world was talking about uh whilst the world was talking about them. When were you there? In early on them. When were you there? In early on them. When were you there? In early on in this escalated war of 22. Yes, first in this escalated war of 22. Yes, first in this escalated war of 22. Yes, first time was in uh I was with the the time was in uh I was with the the time was in uh I was with the the Ukrainian armed forces when they retook Ukrainian armed forces when they retook Ukrainian armed forces when they retook Kersan and I was back in recent weeks Kersan and I was back in recent weeks Kersan and I was back in recent weeks and was there when the Trump Sinski blow and was there when the Trump Sinski blow and was there when the Trump Sinski blow up happened. In fact, I was with I was up happened. In fact, I was with I was up happened. In fact, I was with I was in a Ukrainian dugout at the front lines in a Ukrainian dugout at the front lines in a Ukrainian dugout at the front lines when I was watching it. How's the when I was watching it. How's the when I was watching it. How's the morale? How's the way the content of the morale? How's the way the content of the morale? How's the way the content of the conversations you've heard different on conversations you've heard different on conversations you've heard different on the from the two visits separated by I the from the two visits separated by I the from the two visits separated by I guess two years one guess two years one guess two years one level I mean nothing has changed much level I mean nothing has changed much level I mean nothing has changed much you know it's a sort of it it's not a a you know it's a sort of it it's not a a you know it's a sort of it it's not a a total standoff because intermittently total standoff because intermittently total standoff because intermittently each side gains territory from the each side gains territory from the each side gains territory from the others but it's it's not I mean there others but it's it's not I mean there others but it's it's not I mean there have been no very significant military have been no very significant military have been no very significant military gains by either died in the interim gains by either died in the interim gains by either died in the interim period. I think uh my experience of the period. I think uh my experience of the period. I think uh my experience of the the soldiers, the people of Ukraine the soldiers, the people of Ukraine the soldiers, the people of Ukraine early on in the war, there's a intense early on in the war, there's a intense early on in the war, there's a intense optimism about the outcomes of the war.

optimism about the outcomes of the war. optimism about the outcomes of the war. There's a sense that they're going to There's a sense that they're going to There's a sense that they're going to win and the definition of what win means win and the definition of what win means win and the definition of what win means was like all the territory is going to was like all the territory is going to was like all the territory is going to be one back. Yeah, I I certainly uh on be one back. Yeah, I I certainly uh on be one back. Yeah, I I certainly uh on the front lines facing Crimea was uh the front lines facing Crimea was uh the front lines facing Crimea was uh became quite familiar with people who became quite familiar with people who became quite familiar with people who thought that the Ukrainians in late 2022 thought that the Ukrainians in late 2022 thought that the Ukrainians in late 2022 would even be able to get Crimea back. would even be able to get Crimea back. would even be able to get Crimea back. And that struck me even at the time and And that struck me even at the time and And that struck me even at the time and I said I I thought that that was an I said I I thought that that was an I said I I thought that that was an overreach. And uh now I overreach. And uh now I overreach. And uh now I think the people the soldiers at least think the people the soldiers at least think the people the soldiers at least in my experience when I visited the in my experience when I visited the in my experience when I visited the second time are more exhausted. second time are more exhausted. second time are more exhausted. The morale, The morale, The morale, the dreams, the certainty of victory the dreams, the certainty of victory the dreams, the certainty of victory has has maybe faded from the forefront has has maybe faded from the forefront has has maybe faded from the forefront of their minds. Well, 3 years of war of their minds. Well, 3 years of war of their minds. Well, 3 years of war will tire out anyone. What did you think will tire out anyone. What did you think will tire out anyone. What did you think of the blow up between Zilinski and of the blow up between Zilinski and of the blow up between Zilinski and Trump as you're uh sitting there in the Trump as you're uh sitting there in the Trump as you're uh sitting there in the dugout? Well, it is it was a very uh dugout? Well, it is it was a very uh dugout? Well, it is it was a very uh disturbing place to watch it from.

disturbing place to watch it from. disturbing place to watch it from. Perhaps anywhere would have been. Perhaps anywhere would have been. Perhaps anywhere would have been. Um, Um, Um, and I mean obviously it was a meeting and I mean obviously it was a meeting and I mean obviously it was a meeting that shouldn't have happened. It was far that shouldn't have happened. It was far that shouldn't have happened. It was far too early. Why do you think so? There's too early. Why do you think so? There's too early. Why do you think so? There's not enough actual pathways to peace on not enough actual pathways to peace on not enough actual pathways to peace on the table. Well, I think the mineral the table. Well, I think the mineral the table. Well, I think the mineral deal I mean I love the fact that deal I mean I love the fact that deal I mean I love the fact that everyone's now an expert in Eastern everyone's now an expert in Eastern everyone's now an expert in Eastern Ukrainian mineral deposits. But I think Ukrainian mineral deposits. But I think Ukrainian mineral deposits. But I think uh as I've learned and we'll talk about uh as I've learned and we'll talk about uh as I've learned and we'll talk about Israel and Palestine. I'm learning that Israel and Palestine. I'm learning that Israel and Palestine. I'm learning that everybody's an expert on geopolitics and everybody's an expert on geopolitics and everybody's an expert on geopolitics and the history of war on the internet and the history of war on the internet and the history of war on the internet and now mineral deposits obviously. Yes, the now mineral deposits obviously. Yes, the now mineral deposits obviously. Yes, the I'm really speaking at the edge of my I'm really speaking at the edge of my I'm really speaking at the edge of my mineral deposit knowledge here, but no, mineral deposit knowledge here, but no, mineral deposit knowledge here, but no, I mean I from what I could see, the deal I mean I from what I could see, the deal I mean I from what I could see, the deal that that uh the American administration that that uh the American administration that that uh the American administration was trying to uh get the Ukrainian was trying to uh get the Ukrainian was trying to uh get the Ukrainian government to sign was was sort of too government to sign was was sort of too government to sign was was sort of too early to early to early to um forced. The Ukrainians weren't were um forced. The Ukrainians weren't were um forced. The Ukrainians weren't were ready to sign a deal, but were obviously ready to sign a deal, but were obviously ready to sign a deal, but were obviously under intense pressure. Um, and I think under intense pressure. Um, and I think under intense pressure. Um, and I think certainly Zalinski wasn't expecting to certainly Zalinski wasn't expecting to certainly Zalinski wasn't expecting to actually wasn't expecting to go until actually wasn't expecting to go until actually wasn't expecting to go until pretty much the day pretty much the day pretty much the day before.

before. before. Um, was obviously visibly tired and Um, was obviously visibly tired and Um, was obviously visibly tired and exhausted again as you are after that exhausted again as you are after that exhausted again as you are after that amount of pressure for that long a time. amount of pressure for that long a time. amount of pressure for that long a time. And um no, I mean the thing that struck And um no, I mean the thing that struck And um no, I mean the thing that struck me and I I said this in my column in the me and I I said this in my column in the me and I I said this in my column in the New York Post from there that uh the New York Post from there that uh the New York Post from there that uh the thing that struck me was I said to some thing that struck me was I said to some thing that struck me was I said to some of the soldiers I was with uh you know of the soldiers I was with uh you know of the soldiers I was with uh you know what do you make of this? And um you what do you make of this? And um you what do you make of this? And um you know, one of them just said to know, one of them just said to know, one of them just said to me, well, you know, we're advised not to me, well, you know, we're advised not to me, well, you know, we're advised not to follow too closely the ins and outs of follow too closely the ins and outs of follow too closely the ins and outs of the politics of this, you know, and um the politics of this, you know, and um the politics of this, you know, and um but of course, everyone has Instagram or but of course, everyone has Instagram or but of course, everyone has Instagram or scrolls and among dog pictures and the scrolls and among dog pictures and the scrolls and among dog pictures and the you know, the hot women or whatever is you know, the hot women or whatever is you know, the hot women or whatever is um you know what happened in the oval um you know what happened in the oval um you know what happened in the oval and uh but what struck me was this same and uh but what struck me was this same and uh but what struck me was this same guy and saying, "I've got a job to do." guy and saying, "I've got a job to do." guy and saying, "I've got a job to do." Right. And uh there's a Right. And uh there's a Right. And uh there's a clarity and a wisdom to that. But uh clarity and a wisdom to that. But uh clarity and a wisdom to that. But uh your job is is is bigger than that, your job is is is bigger than that, your job is is is bigger than that, right? Is to understand the politics as right? Is to understand the politics as right? Is to understand the politics as well. And what do you think about the well. And what do you think about the well. And what do you think about the politics of that moment? Because that politics of that moment? Because that politics of that moment? Because that was a real was a real was a real opportunity to come together and make opportunity to come together and make opportunity to come together and make progress on peace, right? And it from by progress on peace, right? And it from by progress on peace, right? And it from by all all all accounts was not a successful step accounts was not a successful step accounts was not a successful step forward. I don't think by any account it forward. I don't think by any account it forward. I don't think by any account it was a successful step forward was a successful step forward was a successful step forward unless to some extent it was a play but unless to some extent it was a play but unless to some extent it was a play but from DC to say to Putin look we ded off from DC to say to Putin look we ded off from DC to say to Putin look we ded off Zalinski and you know now give us

Zalinski and you know now give us Zalinski and you know now give us something. That's the only uh remedial something. That's the only uh remedial something. That's the only uh remedial idea I have about what might have been idea I have about what might have been idea I have about what might have been behind it. But I think it was just one behind it. But I think it was just one behind it. But I think it was just one of those extremely uh I mean just of those extremely uh I mean just of those extremely uh I mean just awful political moments. awful political moments. awful political moments. Um, Zalinski was Um, Zalinski was Um, Zalinski was obviously obviously obviously deeply irritated by the the the deeply irritated by the the the deeply irritated by the the the interpretation of the war that he was interpretation of the war that he was interpretation of the war that he was hearing from hearing from hearing from Washington. Uh, it was only a week after Washington. Uh, it was only a week after Washington. Uh, it was only a week after the Trump comments about Zalinski being the Trump comments about Zalinski being the Trump comments about Zalinski being a dictator. a dictator. a dictator. Um, and people in the administration Um, and people in the administration Um, and people in the administration implying that Ukraine has started the implying that Ukraine has started the implying that Ukraine has started the war. And I think war. And I think war. And I think that's that must be for Zalinski a that's that must be for Zalinski a that's that must be for Zalinski a pretty Alice in Wonderland situation to pretty Alice in Wonderland situation to pretty Alice in Wonderland situation to be be be in. And uh I had significant sympathy in. And uh I had significant sympathy in. And uh I had significant sympathy for him in finding it for him in finding it for him in finding it bewildering because it would be bewildering because it would be bewildering because it would be bewildering. I think the sad thing to me bewildering. I think the sad thing to me bewildering. I think the sad thing to me also on the mundane details of that also on the mundane details of that also on the mundane details of that meeting and just the unfortunate way meeting and just the unfortunate way meeting and just the unfortunate way that meetings happen, I think it's true that meetings happen, I think it's true that meetings happen, I think it's true that he was also exhausted. Yes, there that he was also exhausted. Yes, there that he was also exhausted. Yes, there was a of a of a reporter that was a of a of a reporter that was a of a of a reporter that was asked a question about outfit in a was asked a question about outfit in a was asked a question about outfit in a way that listen Zilinski, everybody has way that listen Zilinski, everybody has way that listen Zilinski, everybody has their strengths and weaknesses. He's an their strengths and weaknesses. He's an their strengths and weaknesses. He's an emotional being for better or for worse emotional being for better or for worse emotional being for better or for worse and there's a dumb of a and there's a dumb of a and there's a dumb of a reporter Taylor Green's boyfriend.

reporter Taylor Green's boyfriend. reporter Taylor Green's boyfriend. He is. Yeah. The things you know. See, He is. Yeah. The things you know. See, He is. Yeah. The things you know. See, you're a real journalist. He's he's from you're a real journalist. He's he's from you're a real journalist. He's he's from one of the the new I'm all for opening one of the the new I'm all for opening one of the the new I'm all for opening up the White House press pool and all up the White House press pool and all up the White House press pool and all that sort of thing, but it means that that sort of thing, but it means that that sort of thing, but it means that you get some people in who are sort you get some people in who are sort you get some people in who are sort of yeah from Blogland. There's nothing of yeah from Blogland. There's nothing of yeah from Blogland. There's nothing wrong with that, but it it means that wrong with that, but it it means that wrong with that, but it it means that you get somebody who will do something you get somebody who will do something you get somebody who will do something like that. The problem with that like that. The problem with that like that. The problem with that interaction as I saw it was that the interaction as I saw it was that the interaction as I saw it was that the that guy asked that well disrespectful that guy asked that well disrespectful that guy asked that well disrespectful question and uh I I think it was question and uh I I think it was question and uh I I think it was disrespectful and I I'll very quickly disrespectful and I I'll very quickly disrespectful and I I'll very quickly say why. I mean, I think that I think say why. I mean, I think that I think say why. I mean, I think that I think that when a man comes from the realm of that when a man comes from the realm of that when a man comes from the realm of war into the realm of peace, the people war into the realm of peace, the people war into the realm of peace, the people in the realm of peace should have some in the realm of peace should have some in the realm of peace should have some respect or at least concession that the respect or at least concession that the respect or at least concession that the other man has come from the realm of other man has come from the realm of other man has come from the realm of war. war. war. And that if you're sitting in a And that if you're sitting in a And that if you're sitting in a political environment where you talk political environment where you talk political environment where you talk about people being destroyed and about people being destroyed and about people being destroyed and decimated and defenistrated and much decimated and defenistrated and much decimated and defenistrated and much more to a man more to a man more to a man who's for whom none of that is who's for whom none of that is who's for whom none of that is metaphorical, I think that's extremely metaphorical, I think that's extremely metaphorical, I think that's extremely hard to to hard to to hard to to accept. Um and I think that probably accept. Um and I think that probably accept. Um and I think that probably also at that moment there was a sort of also at that moment there was a sort of also at that moment there was a sort of sense sense sense of you know Zilinsky is being of you know Zilinsky is being of you know Zilinsky is being disrespected by being asked about what disrespected by being asked about what disrespected by being asked about what he's he's he's wearing when as everyone knows you know wearing when as everyone knows you know wearing when as everyone knows you know Churchill during World War II used to

Churchill during World War II used to Churchill during World War II used to wear his fatings uh on foreign vis to wear his fatings uh on foreign vis to wear his fatings uh on foreign vis to remind people you're coming from the remind people you're coming from the remind people you're coming from the realm of war and I think that probably realm of war and I think that probably realm of war and I think that probably in that in that moment one of the things in that in that moment one of the things in that in that moment one of the things would have been going through his head would have been going through his head would have been going through his head would be. But I mean, if if if this was would be. But I mean, if if if this was would be. But I mean, if if if this was Putin sitting here being assaulted by a Putin sitting here being assaulted by a Putin sitting here being assaulted by a journalist, you know, you'd you'd hope journalist, you know, you'd you'd hope journalist, you know, you'd you'd hope your host stepped in and defended you. I your host stepped in and defended you. I your host stepped in and defended you. I mean, if let me try this one out. I mean, if let me try this one out. I mean, if let me try this one out. I mean, if if a if a journalist in the mean, if if a if a journalist in the mean, if if a if a journalist in the Oval Office, if Putin was sitting there Oval Office, if Putin was sitting there Oval Office, if Putin was sitting there or a putitive journalist said to Putin, or a putitive journalist said to Putin, or a putitive journalist said to Putin, you know, um, everyone knows you've had you know, um, everyone knows you've had you know, um, everyone knows you've had a lot of facial work done and, uh, word a lot of facial work done and, uh, word a lot of facial work done and, uh, word is you've used the same guy that Berlesi is you've used the same guy that Berlesi is you've used the same guy that Berlesi used to use. Um, can you comment on on used to use. Um, can you comment on on used to use. Um, can you comment on on that? You you'd you'd you'd say, well, that? You you'd you'd you'd say, well, that? You you'd you'd you'd say, well, that's a kind of disrespectful question that's a kind of disrespectful question that's a kind of disrespectful question for journalists to ask and it's a little for journalists to ask and it's a little for journalists to ask and it's a little bit um off off what needs to be gone bit um off off what needs to be gone bit um off off what needs to be gone over. Uh, and this the same thing with over. Uh, and this the same thing with over. Uh, and this the same thing with Zalinsky with the outfit. I think it was Zalinsky with the outfit. I think it was Zalinsky with the outfit. I think it was just petty and and and threw things off just petty and and and threw things off just petty and and and threw things off in a bad way. Yeah. And it was poorly in a bad way. Yeah. And it was poorly in a bad way. Yeah. And it was poorly researched because I think Zilinski was researched because I think Zilinski was researched because I think Zilinski was explaining this like 3 years ago at the explaining this like 3 years ago at the explaining this like 3 years ago at the beginning of the war why he wears what beginning of the war why he wears what beginning of the war why he wears what he wears and he's been consistent he wears and he's been consistent he wears and he's been consistent wearing the same. It's also by the way wearing the same. It's also by the way wearing the same. It's also by the way it's an example of the frivolity of a it's an example of the frivolity of a it's an example of the frivolity of a lot of the of the attempts to attempts lot of the of the attempts to attempts lot of the of the attempts to attempts to understand what's going on. I mean my to understand what's going on. I mean my to understand what's going on. I mean my view is that is that since actually most view is that is that since actually most view is that is that since actually most people in fact everybody cannot be an people in fact everybody cannot be an people in fact everybody cannot be an expert on everything. One of the things

expert on everything. One of the things expert on everything. One of the things that we always do is to seize that we always do is to seize that we always do is to seize on minor and really quite unimportant on minor and really quite unimportant on minor and really quite unimportant things. I mean for I mean every site things. I mean for I mean every site things. I mean for I mean every site does it. Look at the way in which the does it. Look at the way in which the does it. Look at the way in which the American right for years talked about American right for years talked about American right for years talked about the Churchill bust leaving the White the Churchill bust leaving the White the Churchill bust leaving the White House Oval Office in the Obama years. I House Oval Office in the Obama years. I House Oval Office in the Obama years. I I didn't want to hear another darn thing I didn't want to hear another darn thing I didn't want to hear another darn thing about the Churchill bust after eight about the Churchill bust after eight about the Churchill bust after eight years because it just it was in lie of years because it just it was in lie of years because it just it was in lie of trying to understand and actually trying to understand and actually trying to understand and actually critique Obama's foreign policy. It was critique Obama's foreign policy. It was critique Obama's foreign policy. It was just an easy just an easy just an easy shorthand. I think it's the same. We shorthand. I think it's the same. We shorthand. I think it's the same. We we're always tempted to that. But the we're always tempted to that. But the we're always tempted to that. But the thing is I think you mentioned Putin. I thing is I think you mentioned Putin. I thing is I think you mentioned Putin. I think Putin would have been able to uh think Putin would have been able to uh think Putin would have been able to uh respond himself to that journalist respond himself to that journalist respond himself to that journalist effectively and he would have done it in effectively and he would have done it in effectively and he would have done it in Russian. Oh yeah, the language thing was Russian. Oh yeah, the language thing was Russian. Oh yeah, the language thing was Yeah. So I wanted to sort of lay out Yeah. So I wanted to sort of lay out Yeah. So I wanted to sort of lay out several just unfortunate things that several just unfortunate things that several just unfortunate things that happen in these situations and I think happen in these situations and I think happen in these situations and I think it happens in all peace negotiations and it happens in all peace negotiations and it happens in all peace negotiations and it's funny how history can turn in it's funny how history can turn in it's funny how history can turn in moments like this. I do think there's a moments like this. I do think there's a moments like this. I do think there's a reporter combined with the fact reporter combined with the fact reporter combined with the fact that the, you know, with all due that the, you know, with all due that the, you know, with all due respect, but Zilinsk's English sometimes respect, but Zilinsk's English sometimes respect, but Zilinsk's English sometimes is not very good. Yes. And apart from is not very good. Yes. And apart from is not very good. Yes. And apart from anything else, if he had have agreed to anything else, if he had have agreed to anything else, if he had have agreed to not done it in English, he would have not done it in English, he would have not done it in English, he would have bought himself the extra seconds in some bought himself the extra seconds in some bought himself the extra seconds in some of his replies that he needed. Yeah.

of his replies that he needed. Yeah. of his replies that he needed. Yeah. Yeah. And have the wit. The guy is Yeah. And have the wit. The guy is Yeah. And have the wit. The guy is funny, witty, funny, witty, funny, witty, intelligent, you know, he could do that intelligent, you know, he could do that intelligent, you know, he could do that in the native language of whether it's in the native language of whether it's in the native language of whether it's Ukrainian or Russian to be able to Ukrainian or Russian to be able to Ukrainian or Russian to be able to respond and get the interpreter. respond and get the interpreter. respond and get the interpreter. So all of that is really unfortunate So all of that is really unfortunate So all of that is really unfortunate because I think on those little moments because I think on those little moments because I think on those little moments it's it's a dance and there's an it's it's a dance and there's an it's it's a dance and there's an opportunity there. You know, the opportunity there. You know, the opportunity there. You know, the Republicans, the the right-wing in the Republicans, the the right-wing in the Republicans, the the right-wing in the United States have a general kind of United States have a general kind of United States have a general kind of skepticism of Zilinski and and but that skepticism of Zilinski and and but that skepticism of Zilinski and and but that doesn't mean it has to be that way. It doesn't mean it has to be that way. It doesn't mean it has to be that way. It can turn, it can change, it can evolve. can turn, it can change, it can evolve. can turn, it can change, it can evolve. It's very interesting why it has It's very interesting why it has It's very interesting why it has happened. Why do you think it's happened. Why do you think it's happened. Why do you think it's happened? happened? happened? I the politics in the United States is I the politics in the United States is I the politics in the United States is so dumb that at the very beginning it so dumb that at the very beginning it so dumb that at the very beginning it could just be reduced to well the left could just be reduced to well the left could just be reduced to well the left went Putin bad, Zilinski good, rahrh went Putin bad, Zilinski good, rahrh went Putin bad, Zilinski good, rahrh Ukrainian flags. Therefore, the right Ukrainian flags. Therefore, the right Ukrainian flags. Therefore, the right must go the opposite. It sometimes is must go the opposite. It sometimes is must go the opposite. It sometimes is literally as dumb as that. Let's each literally as dumb as that. Let's each literally as dumb as that. Let's each pick a side and call the others dumb. I pick a side and call the others dumb. I pick a side and call the others dumb. I I had a a line I used recently. Um the I had a a line I used recently. Um the I had a a line I used recently. Um the necessity of people who live too long necessity of people who live too long necessity of people who live too long online to try to wade their way out of online to try to wade their way out of online to try to wade their way out of the memes. It is sort of like that, the memes. It is sort of like that, the memes. It is sort of like that, isn't it? Because yes, I mean, I can isn't it? Because yes, I mean, I can isn't it? Because yes, I mean, I can understand the people who find it very understand the people who find it very understand the people who find it very irritating that so many people who would irritating that so many people who would irritating that so many people who would put BLM flags or pride flags or, you put BLM flags or pride flags or, you put BLM flags or pride flags or, you know, trans flags in their bio then put know, trans flags in their bio then put know, trans flags in their bio then put Ukrainian flags in their bio despite Ukrainian flags in their bio despite Ukrainian flags in their bio despite almost certainly not knowing where almost certainly not knowing where almost certainly not knowing where Ukraine was. And uh if that happens, the Ukraine was. And uh if that happens, the Ukraine was. And uh if that happens, the inevitable instinct of a lot of people

inevitable instinct of a lot of people inevitable instinct of a lot of people who aren't really thinking is to say, who aren't really thinking is to say, who aren't really thinking is to say, "That's really annoying. These people "That's really annoying. These people "That's really annoying. These people are really annoying. I'll sock it to are really annoying. I'll sock it to are really annoying. I'll sock it to them." But that's where you've got to them." But that's where you've got to them." But that's where you've got to try to rise above that and say, try to rise above that and say, try to rise above that and say, "Actually, funnily enough, the fate of a "Actually, funnily enough, the fate of a "Actually, funnily enough, the fate of a country doesn't depend on my tolerance country doesn't depend on my tolerance country doesn't depend on my tolerance for memes online today." Yeah. So, I for memes online today." Yeah. So, I for memes online today." Yeah. So, I think the memes can be broken through in think the memes can be broken through in think the memes can be broken through in meetings like the one that happened meetings like the one that happened meetings like the one that happened between Zilinsky and Trump. there can between Zilinsky and Trump. there can between Zilinsky and Trump. there can been real camaraderie. I've seen the been real camaraderie. I've seen the been real camaraderie. I've seen the skill of that just recently having skill of that just recently having skill of that just recently having researched deeply and interacted with uh researched deeply and interacted with uh researched deeply and interacted with uh Narendra Modi. M here's somebody who has Narendra Modi. M here's somebody who has Narendra Modi. M here's somebody who has the skill of, you know, for his country, the skill of, you know, for his country, the skill of, you know, for his country, for his situation, being able to somehow for his situation, being able to somehow for his situation, being able to somehow be friends with Putin and friends with be friends with Putin and friends with be friends with Putin and friends with Zilinski and friends with Trump and Zilinski and friends with Trump and Zilinski and friends with Trump and friends with Biden and friends with friends with Biden and friends with friends with Biden and friends with Obama was to go for and Obama was to go for and Obama was to go for and that while still that while still that while still being strong for his country and like being strong for his country and like being strong for his country and like fundamentally a nationalist figure who's fundamentally a nationalist figure who's fundamentally a nationalist figure who's like, you very not globalist, not uh like, you very not globalist, not uh like, you very not globalist, not uh anything but pro- India, India first, anything but pro- India, India first, anything but pro- India, India first, nation first. In fact, nation first with nation first. In fact, nation first with nation first. In fact, nation first with a very specific idea what that nation a very specific idea what that nation a very specific idea what that nation represents. Sure. And that, you know, represents. Sure. And that, you know, represents. Sure. And that, you know, Zilinski could do all of those things Zilinski could do all of those things Zilinski could do all of those things but have the skill of navigating but have the skill of navigating but have the skill of navigating uh the Trump room because every single uh the Trump room because every single uh the Trump room because every single leader has their own peculiar quirks leader has their own peculiar quirks leader has their own peculiar quirks that need to be navigated. Yes. The

that need to be navigated. Yes. The that need to be navigated. Yes. The obvious one. I mean, I don't want to obvious one. I mean, I don't want to obvious one. I mean, I don't want to make it sound like it was all Zilinski's make it sound like it was all Zilinski's make it sound like it was all Zilinski's fault, but I mean, the obvious one was fault, but I mean, the obvious one was fault, but I mean, the obvious one was at the beginning of the meeting to say at the beginning of the meeting to say at the beginning of the meeting to say yet again, as he has done for three yet again, as he has done for three yet again, as he has done for three years, thank you to America and the years, thank you to America and the years, thank you to America and the American people and American politicians American people and American politicians American people and American politicians from across the aisle for your support from across the aisle for your support from across the aisle for your support for my country and it's our need. We're for my country and it's our need. We're for my country and it's our need. We're deeply grateful and because he for once deeply grateful and because he for once deeply grateful and because he for once forgot to say that. I I think it's not forgot to say that. I I think it's not forgot to say that. I I think it's not that simple. I think there's a It's not that simple. I think there's a It's not that simple. I think there's a It's not that simple. It's one reason. I think that simple. It's one reason. I think that simple. It's one reason. I think saying thank you, he didn't need to say saying thank you, he didn't need to say saying thank you, he didn't need to say thank you. There's that was why Vance thank you. There's that was why Vance thank you. There's that was why Vance that was what Vance leapt in on. He's that was what Vance leapt in on. He's that was what Vance leapt in on. He's just picking a thing to leap on. There's just picking a thing to leap on. There's just picking a thing to leap on. There's a whole energy. You have to acknowledge a whole energy. You have to acknowledge a whole energy. You have to acknowledge in your way of being that you have been in your way of being that you have been in your way of being that you have been very Biden buddy buddy with the left for very Biden buddy buddy with the left for very Biden buddy buddy with the left for the last four years. There's ways to fix the last four years. There's ways to fix the last four years. There's ways to fix that. Listen, these people are that. Listen, these people are that. Listen, these people are complicated narcissists. All of them. complicated narcissists. All of them. complicated narcissists. All of them. Biden, Trump. You have to navigate the Biden, Trump. You have to navigate the Biden, Trump. You have to navigate the complexity of that. And you basically complexity of that. And you basically complexity of that. And you basically have to say a kind word to Trump which have to say a kind word to Trump which have to say a kind word to Trump which is like showing there's many ways of is like showing there's many ways of is like showing there's many ways of doing that but one of them is saying uh doing that but one of them is saying uh doing that but one of them is saying uh feeding the ego by acknowledging that he feeding the ego by acknowledging that he feeding the ego by acknowledging that he is one of the world's greatest is one of the world's greatest is one of the world's greatest negotiators right I'm I'm glad we're negotiators right I'm I'm glad we're negotiators right I'm I'm glad we're able to come to the table and negotiate able to come to the table and negotiate able to come to the table and negotiate together because I believe you are the together because I believe you are the together because I believe you are the great negotiator mediator that can uh great negotiator mediator that can uh great negotiator mediator that can uh actually bring a successful resolution actually bring a successful resolution actually bring a successful resolution to like as opposed to have an energy of to like as opposed to have an energy of to like as opposed to have an energy of Like it should be obvious to everybody Like it should be obvious to everybody Like it should be obvious to everybody that Ukrainian are the good guys and

that Ukrainian are the good guys and that Ukrainian are the good guys and Russia is the bad guys. There's this Russia is the bad guys. There's this Russia is the bad guys. There's this whole energy of entitlement that he whole energy of entitlement that he whole energy of entitlement that he brought. He forgot that there's a new brought. He forgot that there's a new brought. He forgot that there's a new guy. You got to like convince the new guy. You got to like convince the new guy. You got to like convince the new guy that this global mission that this guy that this global mission that this guy that this global mission that this nation is on, this war that is in in nation is on, this war that is in in nation is on, this war that is in in many ways the west many ways the west many ways the west versus the east that this there's versus the east that this there's versus the east that this there's ideals, there's whole histories here ideals, there's whole histories here ideals, there's whole histories here that this is a war worth winning. You that this is a war worth winning. You that this is a war worth winning. You have to convince them, right? Yeah. No, have to convince them, right? Yeah. No, have to convince them, right? Yeah. No, sure. And he obviously failed on that sure. And he obviously failed on that sure. And he obviously failed on that occasion. Um, but as I say, it must be occasion. Um, but as I say, it must be occasion. Um, but as I say, it must be bewildering to have landed in a place bewildering to have landed in a place bewildering to have landed in a place where people were seriously talking where people were seriously talking where people were seriously talking about Ukraine starting the war, right? about Ukraine starting the war, right? about Ukraine starting the war, right? And Zalinski, not Putin being the And Zalinski, not Putin being the And Zalinski, not Putin being the dictator. I I I did the front page of dictator. I I I did the front page of dictator. I I I did the front page of the New York Post the day after the the New York Post the day after the the New York Post the day after the president's comments on that saying that president's comments on that saying that president's comments on that saying that the big picture of Putin just saying, the big picture of Putin just saying, the big picture of Putin just saying, "Right, this is this is a dictator." And "Right, this is this is a dictator." And "Right, this is this is a dictator." And you know, I think the people can be uh you know, I think the people can be uh you know, I think the people can be uh live enough to be able to recognize live enough to be able to recognize live enough to be able to recognize that, you know, you can make criticisms that, you know, you can make criticisms that, you know, you can make criticisms of Zalinski or the Ukrainians, but it of Zalinski or the Ukrainians, but it of Zalinski or the Ukrainians, but it doesn't mean you have to fall full doesn't mean you have to fall full doesn't mean you have to fall full Putin. And again, unfortunately, a lot Putin. And again, unfortunately, a lot Putin. And again, unfortunately, a lot of people in our time don't have that of people in our time don't have that of people in our time don't have that capability. Can we go right into it?

capability. Can we go right into it? capability. Can we go right into it? What is your strongest criticism of What is your strongest criticism of What is your strongest criticism of Putin? He's a dictator who's very Putin? He's a dictator who's very Putin? He's a dictator who's very bloody, as repressive as you can be of bloody, as repressive as you can be of bloody, as repressive as you can be of political opposition, internal political opposition, internal political opposition, internal opposition. He's kleptomaniac of his opposition. He's kleptomaniac of his opposition. He's kleptomaniac of his country's resources. Has enriched country's resources. Has enriched country's resources. Has enriched himself as much as he could uh as he has himself as much as he could uh as he has himself as much as he could uh as he has with the cronies around him. uh he's not with the cronies around him. uh he's not with the cronies around him. uh he's not just acted to just acted to just acted to uh destroy internal opposition in Russia uh destroy internal opposition in Russia uh destroy internal opposition in Russia but has gone to other countries but has gone to other countries but has gone to other countries including my own country of birth and uh including my own country of birth and uh including my own country of birth and uh killed people on there our soil using as killed people on there our soil using as killed people on there our soil using as it happens weapons of mass destruction. it happens weapons of mass destruction. it happens weapons of mass destruction. The use of pelonium in the center of The use of pelonium in the center of The use of pelonium in the center of London is not good. the use of London is not good. the use of London is not good. the use of incredibly dangerous nerve agents that incredibly dangerous nerve agents that incredibly dangerous nerve agents that could kill tens of thousands of people could kill tens of thousands of people could kill tens of thousands of people in a charming cathedral city like in a charming cathedral city like in a charming cathedral city like Salsbury. Not good. If the sort of Salsbury. Not good. If the sort of Salsbury. Not good. If the sort of apologist of Putin say, "Well, he's just apologist of Putin say, "Well, he's just apologist of Putin say, "Well, he's just a sort of tough man who's looking after a sort of tough man who's looking after a sort of tough man who's looking after his house business."

his house business." his house business." Well, I don't think even if you think he Well, I don't think even if you think he Well, I don't think even if you think he has the right to do that, that he should has the right to do that, that he should has the right to do that, that he should be doing it in third be doing it in third be doing it in third countries, deliberately using uh weapons countries, deliberately using uh weapons countries, deliberately using uh weapons that are meant to show that you could that are meant to show that you could that are meant to show that you could take out tens of thousands of British take out tens of thousands of British take out tens of thousands of British citizens. Yeah. I mean, that's just for citizens. Yeah. I mean, that's just for citizens. Yeah. I mean, that's just for starters. What do you make for uh Do you starters. What do you make for uh Do you starters. What do you make for uh Do you think he's actually popularly elected? think he's actually popularly elected? think he's actually popularly elected? No. No. No. Do you think the the results of the Do you think the the results of the Do you think the the results of the elections are fraudulent? elections are fraudulent? elections are fraudulent? Yes. I mean, do you think it's possible Yes. I mean, do you think it's possible Yes. I mean, do you think it's possible that it's just that the opposition has that it's just that the opposition has that it's just that the opposition has been eliminated and he's legitimately been eliminated and he's legitimately been eliminated and he's legitimately popularly elected? It definitely helps a popularly elected? It definitely helps a popularly elected? It definitely helps a chap if he's killed all of his chap if he's killed all of his chap if he's killed all of his opponents. opponents. opponents. Something by using the term chap in that Something by using the term chap in that Something by using the term chap in that context is just uh marvelous. But, you context is just uh marvelous. But, you context is just uh marvelous. But, you know, I know I mean, but I mean, know, I know I mean, but I mean, know, I know I mean, but I mean, seriously, you you uh if if if people seriously, you you uh if if if people seriously, you you uh if if if people are worried about this is another of the are worried about this is another of the are worried about this is another of the sort of slightly Alice in Wonderland sort of slightly Alice in Wonderland sort of slightly Alice in Wonderland things recently about Zilinski is people things recently about Zilinski is people things recently about Zilinski is people are saying, why why hasn't he's a are saying, why why hasn't he's a are saying, why why hasn't he's a dictator? Because he hasn't held dictator? Because he hasn't held dictator? Because he hasn't held elections during a total war of elections during a total war of elections during a total war of self-defense. And it's like, self-defense. And it's like, self-defense. And it's like, well, you know, if you're really really well, you know, if you're really really well, you know, if you're really really passionate about free and fair elections passionate about free and fair elections passionate about free and fair elections in that neck of the woods, you'd at in that neck of the woods, you'd at in that neck of the woods, you'd at least notice that that Russian elections least notice that that Russian elections least notice that that Russian elections are not free and fair in any meaningful are not free and fair in any meaningful are not free and fair in any meaningful sense. But this doesn't mean that you sense. But this doesn't mean that you sense. But this doesn't mean that you have to say that therefore they should have to say that therefore they should have to say that therefore they should have western style elections and and and have western style elections and and and have western style elections and and and freedom, that Russia is is ready to go freedom, that Russia is is ready to go freedom, that Russia is is ready to go and become a western liberal democracy.

and become a western liberal democracy. and become a western liberal democracy. It doesn't mean any of that at all. It doesn't mean any of that at all. It doesn't mean any of that at all. Let's just at least Let's just at least Let's just at least note that this is what Putin is. What do note that this is what Putin is. What do note that this is what Putin is. What do you think is the motivation for his you think is the motivation for his you think is the motivation for his invasion of Ukraine in 22? invasion of Ukraine in 22? invasion of Ukraine in 22? It's what he's said for years, which is It's what he's said for years, which is It's what he's said for years, which is uh the basically the reconstitution of uh the basically the reconstitution of uh the basically the reconstitution of the Soviet Union. Do you think there is the Soviet Union. Do you think there is the Soviet Union. Do you think there is u empire building components to that u empire building components to that u empire building components to that motivation? I would trust most my motivation? I would trust most my motivation? I would trust most my friends in Eastern Central Europe who friends in Eastern Central Europe who friends in Eastern Central Europe who certainly do think that there's a reason certainly do think that there's a reason certainly do think that there's a reason why the Baltic countries are the why the Baltic countries are the why the Baltic countries are the countries that are spending highest in countries that are spending highest in countries that are spending highest in percentage of GDP on defense and it's percentage of GDP on defense and it's percentage of GDP on defense and it's because they're very worried. I I don't because they're very worried. I I don't because they're very worried. I I don't think they're faking it. I don't think think they're faking it. I don't think think they're faking it. I don't think they're faking it for me or for anyone they're faking it for me or for anyone they're faking it for me or for anyone else. I think the Lithuanians, the else. I think the Lithuanians, the else. I think the Lithuanians, the Latians, the Estonians and others are Latians, the Estonians and others are Latians, the Estonians and others are genuinely worried for the first time in genuinely worried for the first time in genuinely worried for the first time in some decades. Do you think there's a some decades. Do you think there's a some decades. Do you think there's a possibility that uh the war continues possibility that uh the war continues possibility that uh the war continues indefinitely even if there's a ceasefire indefinitely even if there's a ceasefire indefinitely even if there's a ceasefire and the peace reached, the war will and the peace reached, the war will and the peace reached, the war will resume? He will seek expansion even resume? He will seek expansion even resume? He will seek expansion even beyond Ukraine. Yes.

beyond Ukraine. Yes. beyond Ukraine. Yes. And uh the most obvious thing is that if And uh the most obvious thing is that if And uh the most obvious thing is that if Trump manages to negotiate a Trump manages to negotiate a Trump manages to negotiate a ceasefire, it'll be a temporary pause ceasefire, it'll be a temporary pause ceasefire, it'll be a temporary pause and whoever comes in as president after and whoever comes in as president after and whoever comes in as president after Trump, uh Putin will use the opportunity Trump, uh Putin will use the opportunity Trump, uh Putin will use the opportunity to advance again. Uh yes, again, one of to advance again. Uh yes, again, one of to advance again. Uh yes, again, one of the things that I have heard from parts the things that I have heard from parts the things that I have heard from parts of the American right and others is that of the American right and others is that of the American right and others is that all he wants is Ukraine. that that's all all he wants is Ukraine. that that's all all he wants is Ukraine. that that's all he wants and that he has no history or he wants and that he has no history or he wants and that he has no history or of rhetoric or actions that suggest of rhetoric or actions that suggest of rhetoric or actions that suggest anything else. And again, it's one of anything else. And again, it's one of anything else. And again, it's one of the reasons why it's useful traveling to the reasons why it's useful traveling to the reasons why it's useful traveling to places and seeing things with your own places and seeing things with your own places and seeing things with your own eyes because I very much remember being eyes because I very much remember being eyes because I very much remember being in the country of Georgia uh after Putin in the country of Georgia uh after Putin in the country of Georgia uh after Putin tried to invade in 2008. tried to invade in 2008. tried to invade in 2008. So I just again people don't have to be So I just again people don't have to be So I just again people don't have to be the greatest supporters of the Ukrainian the greatest supporters of the Ukrainian the greatest supporters of the Ukrainian cause just to recognize that that it cause just to recognize that that it cause just to recognize that that it doesn't seem to be the case that that doesn't seem to be the case that that doesn't seem to be the case that that Ukraine is the only thing in Putin's Ukraine is the only thing in Putin's Ukraine is the only thing in Putin's vision. Do you see value and uh maybe vision. Do you see value and uh maybe vision. Do you see value and uh maybe depth and power to the realist depth and power to the realist depth and power to the realist perspective of all this? you know, perspective of all this? you know, perspective of all this? you know, somebody like John Mir Shimemer's somebody like John Mir Shimemer's somebody like John Mir Shimemer's formulation of all this that uh in these formulation of all this that uh in these formulation of all this that uh in these invasions of invasions of invasions of Georgia of Ukraine, it's using military Georgia of Ukraine, it's using military Georgia of Ukraine, it's using military power to expand the sphere of influence power to expand the sphere of influence power to expand the sphere of influence Mhm. in the region in a cold calculation Mhm. in the region in a cold calculation Mhm. in the region in a cold calculation of geopolitics. It's interesting. One of of geopolitics. It's interesting. One of of geopolitics. It's interesting. One of the one of the fascinating things about the one of the fascinating things about the one of the fascinating things about the last few years is there's been an

the last few years is there's been an the last few years is there's been an act of sort of necromancy of certain act of sort of necromancy of certain act of sort of necromancy of certain figures who were totally totally figures who were totally totally figures who were totally totally debunked. uh um in the area of Ukraine, debunked. uh um in the area of Ukraine, debunked. uh um in the area of Ukraine, Mia Shimmer and uh in the case of Mia Shimmer and uh in the case of Mia Shimmer and uh in the case of Israel, people like Finkelstein and uh Israel, people like Finkelstein and uh Israel, people like Finkelstein and uh it's been interesting cuz these are it's been interesting cuz these are it's been interesting cuz these are people that one hadn't heard of for some people that one hadn't heard of for some people that one hadn't heard of for some years because um they were not listened years because um they were not listened years because um they were not listened to for usually for good reason. But by to for usually for good reason. But by to for usually for good reason. But by the way, first of all, I'm very the way, first of all, I'm very the way, first of all, I'm very skeptical of the term realist in foreign skeptical of the term realist in foreign skeptical of the term realist in foreign policy policy policy because most people to some extent will because most people to some extent will because most people to some extent will say that they are a realist in foreign say that they are a realist in foreign say that they are a realist in foreign policy. Very few people are surrealists policy. Very few people are surrealists policy. Very few people are surrealists in foreign policy. Very few people are in foreign policy. Very few people are in foreign policy. Very few people are unrealists. I would like to meet them. A unrealists. I would like to meet them. A unrealists. I would like to meet them. A surrealist foreign policy analyst. We surrealist foreign policy analyst. We surrealist foreign policy analyst. We did mention Alice in Wonderland. So did mention Alice in Wonderland. So did mention Alice in Wonderland. So yeah, I mean maybe we should introduce yeah, I mean maybe we should introduce yeah, I mean maybe we should introduce the term, but I mean if you want to say the term, but I mean if you want to say the term, but I mean if you want to say if you want to look gimlet out, eyed out if you want to look gimlet out, eyed out if you want to look gimlet out, eyed out across the world, you you're you're a across the world, you you're you're a across the world, you you're you're a realist. I think the steelman of their realist. I think the steelman of their realist. I think the steelman of their argument would argument would argument would be Russia has or believes it has a be Russia has or believes it has a be Russia has or believes it has a sphere of influence and is regrettable, sphere of influence and is regrettable, sphere of influence and is regrettable, but there's very little we can do about but there's very little we can do about but there's very little we can do about that.

that. that. That would be about the best version of That would be about the best version of That would be about the best version of that argument that you can make. Well, that argument that you can make. Well, that argument that you can make. Well, to expand on that, Steelman, isn't this to expand on that, Steelman, isn't this to expand on that, Steelman, isn't this how superpowers how superpowers how superpowers operate in the dark realist/s surrealist operate in the dark realist/s surrealist operate in the dark realist/s surrealist way? Meaning the United States uses way? Meaning the United States uses way? Meaning the United States uses military military military power to uh have a sphere influence over power to uh have a sphere influence over power to uh have a sphere influence over the whole globe really. Uh, China the whole globe really. Uh, China the whole globe really. Uh, China appears to be willing to use military appears to be willing to use military appears to be willing to use military power to expand its sphere of influence power to expand its sphere of influence power to expand its sphere of influence and political power. Yeah. More and political power. Yeah. More and political power. Yeah. More importantly, in the case of China, importantly, in the case of China, importantly, in the case of China, political power, political power, political power, non-kinetic warfare to take over areas, non-kinetic warfare to take over areas, non-kinetic warfare to take over areas, Hong Kong being the obvious one. But Hong Kong being the obvious one. But Hong Kong being the obvious one. But behind that, isn't there always a behind that, isn't there always a behind that, isn't there always a kinetic threat? Oh, yeah. Of course. kinetic threat? Oh, yeah. Of course. kinetic threat? Oh, yeah. Of course. Yeah. I mean, you disappear some book Yeah. I mean, you disappear some book Yeah. I mean, you disappear some book sellers and and uh students are sellers and and uh students are sellers and and uh students are protesting. Of course. I just but but to protesting. Of course. I just but but to protesting. Of course. I just but but to go back to this. Yeah, of course. Okay. go back to this. Yeah, of course. Okay. go back to this. Yeah, of course. Okay. Countries believe they have or or would Countries believe they have or or would Countries believe they have or or would like to have spheres of influence. I do like to have spheres of influence. I do like to have spheres of influence. I do think at some point that the so-called think at some point that the so-called think at some point that the so-called realists on that have to try to decide realists on that have to try to decide realists on that have to try to decide how much leeway that allows you to give how much leeway that allows you to give how much leeway that allows you to give to a fairly rapacious uh to a fairly rapacious uh to a fairly rapacious uh regime. Uh and it's not I mean it's it's regime. Uh and it's not I mean it's it's regime. Uh and it's not I mean it's it's not the easiest calculation always to not the easiest calculation always to not the easiest calculation always to make. You have to work out whether or make. You have to work out whether or make. You have to work out whether or not for instance it is true that if if not for instance it is true that if if not for instance it is true that if if Russia had if Putin had managed to go Russia had if Putin had managed to go Russia had if Putin had managed to go all the way to Kiev in the first weeks all the way to Kiev in the first weeks all the way to Kiev in the first weeks of the war in 22 he would have gone

of the war in 22 he would have gone of the war in 22 he would have gone straight on to other places and you know straight on to other places and you know straight on to other places and you know maybe he would have done maybe he would maybe he would have done maybe he would maybe he would have done maybe he would have taken his time. Maybe he wouldn't have taken his time. Maybe he wouldn't have taken his time. Maybe he wouldn't have done and this is a very fine have done and this is a very fine have done and this is a very fine calculation that calculation that calculation that changes every week let alone every year. changes every week let alone every year. changes every week let alone every year. you know, my friends in Georgia, I you know, my friends in Georgia, I you know, my friends in Georgia, I thought were um wildly off the mark when thought were um wildly off the mark when thought were um wildly off the mark when they were believing that after 2008 they they were believing that after 2008 they they were believing that after 2008 they could get, for instance, either NATO could get, for instance, either NATO could get, for instance, either NATO membership or EU membership. And I I membership or EU membership. And I I membership or EU membership. And I I thought that was completely unlikely and thought that was completely unlikely and thought that was completely unlikely and I still think it's unlikely and almost I still think it's unlikely and almost I still think it's unlikely and almost certainly undesirable for Europe and for certainly undesirable for Europe and for certainly undesirable for Europe and for NATO because you you've got to be very NATO because you you've got to be very NATO because you you've got to be very careful as and obviously this is one of careful as and obviously this is one of careful as and obviously this is one of the issues with Ukraine and has been the issues with Ukraine and has been the issues with Ukraine and has been since the '90s since the '90s since the '90s is, you know, are you going to set up a is, you know, are you going to set up a is, you know, are you going to set up a trip wire to start World War II? And trip wire to start World War II? And trip wire to start World War II? And that's not a small thing to consider. So that's not a small thing to consider. So that's not a small thing to consider. So what do you think the what do you think the what do you think the uh the peace deal might look like? And uh the peace deal might look like? And uh the peace deal might look like? And what does the path to peace look like in what does the path to peace look like in what does the path to peace look like in Ukraine in in the coming weeks and Ukraine in in the coming weeks and Ukraine in in the coming weeks and months? I have thought it would be uh months? I have thought it would be uh months? I have thought it would be uh regrettably the Ukrainians seeding some regrettably the Ukrainians seeding some regrettably the Ukrainians seeding some territory in the territory in the territory in the east and then um making sure they rearm east and then um making sure they rearm east and then um making sure they rearm uh during whatever peace period comes uh during whatever peace period comes uh during whatever peace period comes afterwards and probably all four afterwards and probably all four afterwards and probably all four territories of uh territories of uh territories of uh dasparation. You couldn't lay any of dasparation. You couldn't lay any of dasparation. You couldn't lay any of that out because it has to be negotiated that out because it has to be negotiated that out because it has to be negotiated on. But I I mean I think that and I

on. But I I mean I think that and I on. But I I mean I think that and I think the ease with which non- think the ease with which non- think the ease with which non- Ukrainians are currently speaking about Ukrainians are currently speaking about Ukrainians are currently speaking about Ukrainian seeding territory is is Ukrainian seeding territory is is Ukrainian seeding territory is is concerning because these territories concerning because these territories concerning because these territories include hundreds of thousands of include hundreds of thousands of include hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian citizens who do not want to Ukrainian citizens who do not want to Ukrainian citizens who do not want to live under Putin's rule and people who live under Putin's rule and people who live under Putin's rule and people who have families in the rest of Ukraine and have families in the rest of Ukraine and have families in the rest of Ukraine and and and much more. And um uh you know I and and much more. And um uh you know I and and much more. And um uh you know I I recently I recently I recently interviewed children who had managed to interviewed children who had managed to interviewed children who had managed to get out of the Russian occupied get out of the Russian occupied get out of the Russian occupied areas and um it's it's it's brutal for a areas and um it's it's it's brutal for a areas and um it's it's it's brutal for a Ukrainian to be growing up in that Ukrainian to be growing up in that Ukrainian to be growing up in that territory. So I when people say well territory. So I when people say well territory. So I when people say well obviously you know Donetsk has to be obviously you know Donetsk has to be obviously you know Donetsk has to be given to Putin I I think that that given to Putin I I think that that given to Putin I I think that that is not as easy a thing if you're in is not as easy a thing if you're in is not as easy a thing if you're in Ukraine as it is if you're sitting in Ukraine as it is if you're sitting in Ukraine as it is if you're sitting in New York say um and by the way I think New York say um and by the way I think New York say um and by the way I think that on the issue of there is a school that on the issue of there is a school that on the issue of there is a school of thought that that is that obviously of thought that that is that obviously of thought that that is that obviously President Trump to some extent was was President Trump to some extent was was President Trump to some extent was was floating in recent weeks which is that floating in recent weeks which is that floating in recent weeks which is that if if a deal is done a business deal in if if a deal is done a business deal in if if a deal is done a business deal in relation to minerals or anything else.

relation to minerals or anything else. relation to minerals or anything else. You get this great you get a kind of You get this great you get a kind of You get this great you get a kind of buffer zone of American businesses and buffer zone of American businesses and buffer zone of American businesses and investment and therefore American investment and therefore American investment and therefore American business people in the region which business people in the region which business people in the region which would would would effectively warn Putin not to invade. I effectively warn Putin not to invade. I effectively warn Putin not to invade. I don't uh follow that idea because not don't uh follow that idea because not don't uh follow that idea because not least there were Americans in the least there were Americans in the least there were Americans in the regions that were invaded in 22 and they regions that were invaded in 22 and they regions that were invaded in 22 and they left fast and we know from Hong Kong and left fast and we know from Hong Kong and left fast and we know from Hong Kong and other places that just because there are other places that just because there are other places that just because there are international financial interests in the international financial interests in the international financial interests in the region does not mean that a dictatorship region does not mean that a dictatorship region does not mean that a dictatorship will not either um militarily or will not either um militarily or will not either um militarily or covertly take over. I I don't I don't covertly take over. I I don't I don't covertly take over. I I don't I don't see American miners as being an see American miners as being an see American miners as being an effective buffer zone against Putin. By effective buffer zone against Putin. By effective buffer zone against Putin. By the way, what did you um learn from the way, what did you um learn from the way, what did you um learn from talking to the children, Ukrainian talking to the children, Ukrainian talking to the children, Ukrainian children from those regions? Well, I children from those regions? Well, I children from those regions? Well, I mean, it's it's it's heartbreaking mean, it's it's it's heartbreaking mean, it's it's it's heartbreaking because the only schooling is u Russian because the only schooling is u Russian because the only schooling is u Russian schooling. Uh obviously teaching the schooling. Uh obviously teaching the schooling. Uh obviously teaching the Russian language, Putin's view of Russian language, Putin's view of Russian language, Putin's view of history, and effectively indoctrination.

history, and effectively indoctrination. history, and effectively indoctrination. and and people can quibble with that and and people can quibble with that and and people can quibble with that term, but it's Putin indoctrination term, but it's Putin indoctrination term, but it's Putin indoctrination schools and any children or families schools and any children or families schools and any children or families that do not want that effectively have that do not want that effectively have that do not want that effectively have to hide and um not go out. And there to hide and um not go out. And there to hide and um not go out. And there were I spoke to children and parents were I spoke to children and parents were I spoke to children and parents who'd had school friends who for who'd had school friends who for who'd had school friends who for instance the Russians set up in 22 and instance the Russians set up in 22 and instance the Russians set up in 22 and 23 uh uh summer camps uh for the 23 uh uh summer camps uh for the 23 uh uh summer camps uh for the children of some of the areas that have children of some of the areas that have children of some of the areas that have been occupied and the children went off been occupied and the children went off been occupied and the children went off to the camps and then they didn't come to the camps and then they didn't come to the camps and then they didn't come back but they were just stolen. Um I back but they were just stolen. Um I back but they were just stolen. Um I mean it's thought that around 20,000 mean it's thought that around 20,000 mean it's thought that around 20,000 Ukrainian children have been stolen in Ukrainian children have been stolen in Ukrainian children have been stolen in this fashion. That's not a small thing. this fashion. That's not a small thing. this fashion. That's not a small thing. It's not got very much attention, but It's not got very much attention, but It's not got very much attention, but um yes, I mean, children who would hide um yes, I mean, children who would hide um yes, I mean, children who would hide whenever the Russian troops came to the whenever the Russian troops came to the whenever the Russian troops came to the door. Uh one teenage boy who described door. Uh one teenage boy who described door. Uh one teenage boy who described to me how when his mother was out, a a to me how when his mother was out, a a to me how when his mother was out, a a woman came around to the house, knocked woman came around to the house, knocked woman came around to the house, knocked on the door, um and gave him his papers on the door, um and gave him his papers on the door, um and gave him his papers uh and said that he had to attend the uh and said that he had to attend the uh and said that he had to attend the next week to sign up for the Russian next week to sign up for the Russian next week to sign up for the Russian army.

army. army. This is I mean this is this is this is This is I mean this is this is this is This is I mean this is this is this is not good. And that's obviously what life not good. And that's obviously what life not good. And that's obviously what life is like for thousands of people behind is like for thousands of people behind is like for thousands of people behind the Russian lines in the Russian lines in the Russian lines in Ukraine. I just I just have it in mind Ukraine. I just I just have it in mind Ukraine. I just I just have it in mind when people say things like you know when people say things like you know when people say things like you know well obviously these regions have to be well obviously these regions have to be well obviously these regions have to be handed over. It's not it's it's very handed over. It's not it's it's very handed over. It's not it's it's very very hard if you're Ukrainian to concede very hard if you're Ukrainian to concede very hard if you're Ukrainian to concede to that. Yeah. And even if they are as to that. Yeah. And even if they are as to that. Yeah. And even if they are as part of the negotiation handed over, I part of the negotiation handed over, I part of the negotiation handed over, I think it'll probably be think it'll probably be think it'll probably be generations or never that that could be generations or never that that could be generations or never that that could be accepted by the Ukrainian people. accepted by the Ukrainian people. accepted by the Ukrainian people. Absolutely. And I would have thought Absolutely. And I would have thought Absolutely. And I would have thought never. What do we know about this never. What do we know about this never. What do we know about this kidnapping of children, the stories of kidnapping of children, the stories of kidnapping of children, the stories of the thousands of children that the the the thousands of children that the the the thousands of children that the the Russian forces kidnapped? Um, some of Russian forces kidnapped? Um, some of Russian forces kidnapped? Um, some of them were in orphanages in Eastern them were in orphanages in Eastern them were in orphanages in Eastern Ukraine. Not all by any means, but some Ukraine. Not all by any means, but some Ukraine. Not all by any means, but some were. And it's a very complicated story were. And it's a very complicated story were. And it's a very complicated story actually because many children were actually because many children were actually because many children were taken from their families. Uh many the taken from their families. Uh many the taken from their families. Uh many the Russians said, "Well, look at these Russians said, "Well, look at these Russians said, "Well, look at these Ukrainians. They don't even look after Ukrainians. They don't even look after Ukrainians. They don't even look after their children. Therefore, we will look their children. Therefore, we will look their children. Therefore, we will look after after after them." And I was I was recently when I them." And I was I was recently when I them." And I was I was recently when I was there looking into this story was there looking into this story was there looking into this story because it's it's a very interesting because it's it's a very interesting because it's it's a very interesting question as to why it hasn't had more question as to why it hasn't had more question as to why it hasn't had more attention. You know, one thinks of, for attention. You know, one thinks of, for attention. You know, one thinks of, for instance, the abduction of the Chibbach instance, the abduction of the Chibbach instance, the abduction of the Chibbach school girls some 12 years ago now in school girls some 12 years ago now in school girls some 12 years ago now in northern Nigeria and that appalling northern Nigeria and that appalling northern Nigeria and that appalling abduction of 300 girls by Boka Haram uh abduction of 300 girls by Boka Haram uh abduction of 300 girls by Boka Haram uh completely gained the world's attention completely gained the world's attention completely gained the world's attention and I was very interested into why the and I was very interested into why the and I was very interested into why the Ukrainian children who'd been taken by

Ukrainian children who'd been taken by Ukrainian children who'd been taken by the Russians had not gained similar the Russians had not gained similar the Russians had not gained similar attention. There's a slight similarity attention. There's a slight similarity attention. There's a slight similarity with the war in Israel which I'm sure with the war in Israel which I'm sure with the war in Israel which I'm sure we'll come on to. But uh I do think that we'll come on to. But uh I do think that we'll come on to. But uh I do think that one reason is that they were effectively one reason is that they were effectively one reason is that they were effectively hostages and the Ukrainians knew this is hostages and the Ukrainians knew this is hostages and the Ukrainians knew this is this is my estimation of the terrain is this is my estimation of the terrain is this is my estimation of the terrain is that the Ukrainians knew that if they that the Ukrainians knew that if they that the Ukrainians knew that if they made a great deal about this was it were made a great deal about this was it were made a great deal about this was it were more than they did that the that the more than they did that the that the more than they did that the that the children would effectively be the most children would effectively be the most children would effectively be the most effective bargaining effective bargaining effective bargaining chip. And I do think there's chip. And I do think there's chip. And I do think there's considerable truth in that because if considerable truth in that because if considerable truth in that because if you look at for instance the way in you look at for instance the way in you look at for instance the way in which um pressure has been put on the which um pressure has been put on the which um pressure has been put on the Israeli government by the Israeli Israeli government by the Israeli Israeli government by the Israeli population about the kidnapped Israelis, population about the kidnapped Israelis, population about the kidnapped Israelis, you'll see that it it's it's a pretty you'll see that it it's it's a pretty you'll see that it it's it's a pretty effective tactic for uh any uh effective tactic for uh any uh effective tactic for uh any uh totalitarian regime or terrorist group totalitarian regime or terrorist group totalitarian regime or terrorist group to operate in a way that means that the to operate in a way that means that the to operate in a way that means that the population of the country you're population of the country you're population of the country you're attacking attacking attacking pressure their government to do pressure their government to do pressure their government to do something in terms of concession. It's something in terms of concession. It's something in terms of concession. It's it's a it's it's a very effective tool it's a it's it's a very effective tool it's a it's it's a very effective tool and I think that story was partly played and I think that story was partly played and I think that story was partly played down not just outside of Ukraine but down not just outside of Ukraine but down not just outside of Ukraine but also within Ukraine partly for that also within Ukraine partly for that also within Ukraine partly for that reason. As a truth seeker, as a reason. As a truth seeker, as a reason. As a truth seeker, as a journalist, how do you operate in that journalist, how do you operate in that journalist, how do you operate in that world where at least to me it's obvious world where at least to me it's obvious world where at least to me it's obvious that there's just a flood of propaganda that there's just a flood of propaganda that there's just a flood of propaganda on both sides? Now of course when you go on both sides? Now of course when you go on both sides? Now of course when you go there and directly experience it and

there and directly experience it and there and directly experience it and talk to people talk to people talk to people uh but those people are still also uh but those people are still also uh but those people are still also swimming in the propaganda. So unless swimming in the propaganda. So unless swimming in the propaganda. So unless you witness stuff directly sometimes you witness stuff directly sometimes you witness stuff directly sometimes it's hard to know like I I speak to it's hard to know like I I speak to it's hard to know like I I speak to people on the Russian side and there's people on the Russian side and there's people on the Russian side and there's they're clearly first of all hilariously they're clearly first of all hilariously they're clearly first of all hilariously enough they almost always say there's enough they almost always say there's enough they almost always say there's that there's no propaganda in Russia. Of that there's no propaganda in Russia. Of that there's no propaganda in Russia. Of course. course. course. Uh, which makes me realize I mean you Uh, which makes me realize I mean you Uh, which makes me realize I mean you you can be completely lied to. Maybe I you can be completely lied to. Maybe I you can be completely lied to. Maybe I am in the United States as well and just am in the United States as well and just am in the United States as well and just be be be unaware. Um, maybe Earth is run by unaware. Um, maybe Earth is run by unaware. Um, maybe Earth is run by aliens. Maybe the Earth is flat. So, I aliens. Maybe the Earth is flat. So, I aliens. Maybe the Earth is flat. So, I don't know. Maybe you've taken don't know. Maybe you've taken don't know. Maybe you've taken mushrooms. I have before this and I mushrooms. I have before this and I mushrooms. I have before this and I finally see the truth. And it's you that finally see the truth. And it's you that finally see the truth. And it's you that are diluted, Douglas. Okay. But uh back are diluted, Douglas. Okay. But uh back are diluted, Douglas. Okay. But uh back to our round earth discussion, round to our round earth discussion, round to our round earth discussion, round earth shills that we are uh how do you earth shills that we are uh how do you earth shills that we are uh how do you know what is true? You you can tell it know what is true? You you can tell it know what is true? You you can tell it when the bare facts become not when the bare facts become not when the bare facts become not true. Like you can tell it true. Like you can tell it true. Like you can tell it when somebody is willing to claim that when somebody is willing to claim that when somebody is willing to claim that everything caused the invasion of 2022 everything caused the invasion of 2022 everything caused the invasion of 2022 except for Vladimir Putin invading except for Vladimir Putin invading except for Vladimir Putin invading Ukraine. Yeah. There's a there's a Ukraine. Yeah. There's a there's a Ukraine. Yeah. There's a there's a hilarious thing that happens and I think hilarious thing that happens and I think hilarious thing that happens and I think you've actually speak about this that uh you've actually speak about this that uh you've actually speak about this that uh people are generally just much more people are generally just much more people are generally just much more willing to criticize the democratically willing to criticize the democratically willing to criticize the democratically elected leader always always so the elected leader always always so the elected leader always always so the interesting thing that happens is these

interesting thing that happens is these interesting thing that happens is these wise sages that do the narratives of wise sages that do the narratives of wise sages that do the narratives of like NATO started the war right which like NATO started the war right which like NATO started the war right which there is some interesting geopolitical there is some interesting geopolitical there is some interesting geopolitical depth and truth to that like that NATO depth and truth to that like that NATO depth and truth to that like that NATO expansion created complicated expansion created complicated expansion created complicated geopolitical context whatever for But geopolitical context whatever for But geopolitical context whatever for But they forget to say like other parts of they forget to say like other parts of they forget to say like other parts of that story. Well, yes, of course. I that story. Well, yes, of course. I that story. Well, yes, of course. I mean, and I mean, of course, to some mean, and I mean, of course, to some mean, and I mean, of course, to some extent, it's rather, you know, there's a extent, it's rather, you know, there's a extent, it's rather, you know, there's a there's a very the most irritating type there's a very the most irritating type there's a very the most irritating type of question asker at any event is the of question asker at any event is the of question asker at any event is the person who says, "I was disappointed person who says, "I was disappointed person who says, "I was disappointed that in your 30inut talk you didn't that in your 30inut talk you didn't that in your 30inut talk you didn't address X." And I tend to say, "Well, address X." And I tend to say, "Well, address X." And I tend to say, "Well, looking forward to coming to your next looking forward to coming to your next looking forward to coming to your next talk where in 30 minutes you'll cover talk where in 30 minutes you'll cover talk where in 30 minutes you'll cover everything that could possibly be everything that could possibly be everything that could possibly be covered." Um, there's always stuff covered." Um, there's always stuff covered." Um, there's always stuff that's going to be left on the sides. that's going to be left on the sides. that's going to be left on the sides. There's always going to be stuff that's There's always going to be stuff that's There's always going to be stuff that's left unressed. There's always going to left unressed. There's always going to left unressed. There's always going to be other angles. There's always going to be other angles. There's always going to be other angles. There's always going to be somebody else who who who who has be somebody else who who who who has be somebody else who who who who has this interesting perspective and you this interesting perspective and you this interesting perspective and you can't cover it. Nevertheless, if you can't cover it. Nevertheless, if you can't cover it. Nevertheless, if you cover everything other than the central cover everything other than the central cover everything other than the central things, then it's suspicious. things, then it's suspicious. things, then it's suspicious. Many years ago, I was at a debate in Many years ago, I was at a debate in Many years ago, I was at a debate in London and there was a debate about the London and there was a debate about the London and there was a debate about the origins of World War II and uh Pat origins of World War II and uh Pat origins of World War II and uh Pat Buchanan talking of necromancy was one Buchanan talking of necromancy was one Buchanan talking of necromancy was one of the the the the speakers and um of the the the the speakers and um of the the the the speakers and um Andrew Andrew Andrew Roberts historian was one of the people Roberts historian was one of the people Roberts historian was one of the people on the other side and at one point you on the other side and at one point you on the other side and at one point you know they got so completely stuck into know they got so completely stuck into know they got so completely stuck into issues of iron ore mining in Poland in issues of iron ore mining in Poland in issues of iron ore mining in Poland in the mid you know something like this and

the mid you know something like this and the mid you know something like this and the moderator I remember it was just it the moderator I remember it was just it the moderator I remember it was just it was just a melee and the moderator turns was just a melee and the moderator turns was just a melee and the moderator turns to Andrew Roberts and says Andrew to Andrew Roberts and says Andrew to Andrew Roberts and says Andrew Roberts why did World War II begin and Roberts why did World War II begin and Roberts why did World War II begin and he says World War II began because he says World War II began because he says World War II began because Hitler invaded Hitler invaded Hitler invaded Poland and it was a magnificent moment Poland and it was a magnificent moment Poland and it was a magnificent moment because everything had been a marsh they because everything had been a marsh they because everything had been a marsh they were just so lost in all the intricate were just so lost in all the intricate were just so lost in all the intricate and clever and interesting things that and clever and interesting things that and clever and interesting things that you can talk about about the origins of you can talk about about the origins of you can talk about about the origins of a war that you you you a war that you you you a war that you you you forget to mention the thing that's most forget to mention the thing that's most forget to mention the thing that's most important. important. important. And certainly my experience as a And certainly my experience as a And certainly my experience as a journalist and writer is that one of the journalist and writer is that one of the journalist and writer is that one of the reasons why you need to go and see reasons why you need to go and see reasons why you need to go and see things with your own eyes is because things with your own eyes is because things with your own eyes is because people are certain to tell you that what people are certain to tell you that what people are certain to tell you that what you've seen with your own eyes didn't you've seen with your own eyes didn't you've seen with your own eyes didn't happen or hasn't happen or hasn't happen or hasn't happened and it helps to steal you. Yes. happened and it helps to steal you. Yes. happened and it helps to steal you. Yes. for that moment. It's a gradual thing for that moment. It's a gradual thing for that moment. It's a gradual thing that happens where the obvious thing that happens where the obvious thing that happens where the obvious thing starts being taken for granted and starts being taken for granted and starts being taken for granted and people stop saying it because it's like people stop saying it because it's like people stop saying it because it's like the boring thing to say at a party and the boring thing to say at a party and the boring thing to say at a party and then all of a sudden over time you just then all of a sudden over time you just then all of a sudden over time you just almost start questioning whether whether almost start questioning whether whether almost start questioning whether whether you know like the obvious thing is even you know like the obvious thing is even you know like the obvious thing is even true. I don't know what that how that true. I don't know what that how that true. I don't know what that how that happens psychology. Yeah, I think it happens psychology. Yeah, I think it happens psychology. Yeah, I think it does. I I think it does. I've observed does. I I think it does. I've observed does. I I think it does. I've observed it in a lot of different places which is it in a lot of different places which is it in a lot of different places which is the important thing is the only thing the important thing is the only thing the important thing is the only thing you do forget. Everything else is what you do forget. Everything else is what you do forget. Everything else is what you remember. And some of us are for you remember. And some of us are for you remember. And some of us are for some reason wired in a way where we we some reason wired in a way where we we some reason wired in a way where we we don't we try not to forget the important

don't we try not to forget the important don't we try not to forget the important thing. Remember the obvious thing. Yeah. thing. Remember the obvious thing. Yeah. thing. Remember the obvious thing. Yeah. Yes. And as you say not wanting to be Yes. And as you say not wanting to be Yes. And as you say not wanting to be the boring guy at the party who the boring guy at the party who the boring guy at the party who reiterates what is reiterates what is reiterates what is true cuz what a douchebag you'd be if true cuz what a douchebag you'd be if true cuz what a douchebag you'd be if you were that guy. Nobody likes Captain you were that guy. Nobody likes Captain you were that guy. Nobody likes Captain Obvious at a party. Okay. Is it possible Obvious at a party. Okay. Is it possible Obvious at a party. Okay. Is it possible that Donald Trump is a that Donald Trump is a that Donald Trump is a mediator, a successful negotiator that mediator, a successful negotiator that mediator, a successful negotiator that brings a stable peace to Ukraine? It's brings a stable peace to Ukraine? It's brings a stable peace to Ukraine? It's possible. We'll have to see. I think possible. We'll have to see. I think possible. We'll have to see. I think it's just too early and complicated to it's just too early and complicated to it's just too early and complicated to tell. That he wants to bring a peace tell. That he wants to bring a peace tell. That he wants to bring a peace seems to me to be obvious. He stated it seems to me to be obvious. He stated it seems to me to be obvious. He stated it a lot of a lot of a lot of times. times. times. Um whether he can, we're just going to Um whether he can, we're just going to Um whether he can, we're just going to have to see. It's extremely hard to see have to see. It's extremely hard to see have to see. It's extremely hard to see some of the parameters of the peace some of the parameters of the peace some of the parameters of the peace still. And I would suggest that the most still. And I would suggest that the most still. And I would suggest that the most one not the the most difficult, but one one not the the most difficult, but one one not the the most difficult, but one of the most difficult is that there is of the most difficult is that there is of the most difficult is that there is no peace guarantee on paper that the no peace guarantee on paper that the no peace guarantee on paper that the Ukrainians can possibly believe. Ukrainians can possibly believe. Ukrainians can possibly believe. I I just it doesn't matter because we've I I just it doesn't matter because we've I I just it doesn't matter because we've we've we in the west we some of the we've we in the west we some of the we've we in the west we some of the countries in the west have said it countries in the west have said it countries in the west have said it before that we'd secure before that we'd secure before that we'd secure their their peace and we haven't and their their peace and we haven't and their their peace and we haven't and so what other than NATO membership which so what other than NATO membership which so what other than NATO membership which is not possible in my view what other is not possible in my view what other is not possible in my view what other than NATO membership would reassure the than NATO membership would reassure the than NATO membership would reassure the Ukrainians that they are going to have Ukrainians that they are going to have Ukrainians that they are going to have their borders secured and the peace of their borders secured and the peace of their borders secured and the peace of Ukraine secured I I can't see I think uh

Ukraine secured I I can't see I think uh Ukraine secured I I can't see I think uh there's not going to be ever a guarantee there's not going to be ever a guarantee there's not going to be ever a guarantee that you can trust. I think the way you that you can trust. I think the way you that you can trust. I think the way you have a guarantee implicit guarantees by have a guarantee implicit guarantees by have a guarantee implicit guarantees by having military and economic having military and economic having military and economic partnerships with as many partners as partnerships with as many partners as partnerships with as many partners as possible. So you have partnerships with possible. So you have partnerships with possible. So you have partnerships with uh the uh the Middle East, you have uh the uh the Middle East, you have uh the uh the Middle East, you have partnerships with India, perhaps even partnerships with India, perhaps even partnerships with India, perhaps even with China, with the United States, with with China, with the United States, with with China, with the United States, with many nations in Europe. All of which many nations in Europe. All of which many nations in Europe. All of which still suggests that if there's enough still suggests that if there's enough still suggests that if there's enough financial interests in financial interests in financial interests in Ukraine, they would prevent another Ukraine, they would prevent another Ukraine, they would prevent another Russian invasion. There would be Russian invasion. There would be Russian invasion. There would be financial pressure. Yeah, there would be financial pressure. Yeah, there would be financial pressure. Yeah, there would be uh you know, Russia needs to be friends uh you know, Russia needs to be friends uh you know, Russia needs to be friends with somebody either China or the West. with somebody either China or the West. with somebody either China or the West. Um I I think a world that's flourishing Um I I think a world that's flourishing Um I I think a world that's flourishing would have Russia would have Russia would have Russia trading and being friends with the West trading and being friends with the West trading and being friends with the West and the East. Thought it would be and the East. Thought it would be and the East. Thought it would be ideal. It would be ideal if if if they ideal. It would be ideal if if if they ideal. It would be ideal if if if they if the regime in Moscow wanted it. But if the regime in Moscow wanted it. But if the regime in Moscow wanted it. But that's that not I mean again you get that's that not I mean again you get that's that not I mean again you get into the thing of you know people into the thing of you know people into the thing of you know people accused of Russophobia. that I mean um accused of Russophobia. that I mean um accused of Russophobia. that I mean um the I I do believe that after the fall the I I do believe that after the fall the I I do believe that after the fall of the wall uh Russia was illreated by of the wall uh Russia was illreated by of the wall uh Russia was illreated by the west not treated with the uh some of the west not treated with the uh some of the west not treated with the uh some of the courtesy that it required I do think the courtesy that it required I do think the courtesy that it required I do think that and at the same time that doesn't that and at the same time that doesn't that and at the same time that doesn't justify

justify justify uh the actions of Russia in the last 20 uh the actions of Russia in the last 20 uh the actions of Russia in the last 20 years right but let's descent from the years right but let's descent from the years right but let's descent from the surrealist to the realist it's very surrealist to the realist it's very surrealist to the realist it's very possible for Russia possible for Russia possible for Russia to uh be on the verge of military to uh be on the verge of military to uh be on the verge of military invasion of these nations and that being invasion of these nations and that being invasion of these nations and that being wrong while also not doing it because wrong while also not doing it because wrong while also not doing it because they're afraid to hurt the partnerships they're afraid to hurt the partnerships they're afraid to hurt the partnerships with the West and with China. It's with the West and with China. It's with the West and with China. It's possible, but the alliance they formed possible, but the alliance they formed possible, but the alliance they formed with this sort of rogue alliance with with this sort of rogue alliance with with this sort of rogue alliance with China to a considerable China to a considerable China to a considerable extent, North Korea, not useful. extent, North Korea, not useful. extent, North Korea, not useful. uh and Iran is uh and Iran is uh and Iran is um something they seem to find bearable. um something they seem to find bearable. um something they seem to find bearable. It's not a very it's not a very good It's not a very it's not a very good It's not a very it's not a very good alliance in most people's analysis, but alliance in most people's analysis, but alliance in most people's analysis, but it's an alliance. It's bearable, but I it's an alliance. It's bearable, but I it's an alliance. It's bearable, but I don't think maybe you disagree with don't think maybe you disagree with don't think maybe you disagree with this. I don't think the Russian people this. I don't think the Russian people this. I don't think the Russian people or even Putin or even Putin or even Putin uh wants to be isolated from the West. I uh wants to be isolated from the West. I uh wants to be isolated from the West. I think it wants to be friends with the think it wants to be friends with the think it wants to be friends with the West and with the East and with West and with the East and with West and with the East and with everybody. He just also wants Ukraine, everybody. He just also wants Ukraine, everybody. He just also wants Ukraine, right? And right? And right? And there's How Does the Rolling Stones song there's How Does the Rolling Stones song there's How Does the Rolling Stones song go? Which one?

go? Which one? go? Which one? Um, not the satisfaction one. Sympathy Um, not the satisfaction one. Sympathy Um, not the satisfaction one. Sympathy with the devil. That's the one. You got with the devil. That's the one. You got with the devil. That's the one. You got me on that one. No, like there there's me on that one. No, like there there's me on that one. No, like there there's interests where there's expanding the interests where there's expanding the interests where there's expanding the sphere and influence. That's one thing sphere and influence. That's one thing sphere and influence. That's one thing on the table. But that can be put aside on the table. But that can be put aside on the table. But that can be put aside if you want to maintain the partnerships if you want to maintain the partnerships if you want to maintain the partnerships with these nations. And uh if Ukraine with these nations. And uh if Ukraine with these nations. And uh if Ukraine has strong economic partnerships with has strong economic partnerships with has strong economic partnerships with those nations, then that prevents Russia those nations, then that prevents Russia those nations, then that prevents Russia from invading. I think the premise is from invading. I think the premise is from invading. I think the premise is one that I've seen before. Um there was one that I've seen before. Um there was one that I've seen before. Um there was a famous uh what was his a famous uh what was his a famous uh what was his name? Norman Angel. He wrote this book name? Norman Angel. He wrote this book name? Norman Angel. He wrote this book which was a fantastic bestseller in his which was a fantastic bestseller in his which was a fantastic bestseller in his day where he believed that Europe would day where he believed that Europe would day where he believed that Europe would be in a period of endless cantian peace be in a period of endless cantian peace be in a period of endless cantian peace because the prospect of European powers because the prospect of European powers because the prospect of European powers going to war was so economically unviable. The book was reissued after unviable. The book was reissued after World War I. Um, and I never got the World War I. Um, and I never got the World War I. Um, and I never got the second edition, but I assume it was second edition, but I assume it was second edition, but I assume it was significantly rewritten. That's a very significantly rewritten. That's a very significantly rewritten. That's a very kind of cynical take that just because kind of cynical take that just because kind of cynical take that just because the book is wrong. I'm not saying just a the book is wrong. I'm not saying just a the book is wrong. I'm not saying just a bookstore. I'm saying that that the idea that cooperation on an economic and that cooperation on an economic and other levels is other levels is other levels is any significant preventative device to any significant preventative device to any significant preventative device to madness breaking out is is not something madness breaking out is is not something madness breaking out is is not something I see. Could deter some people. It could I see. Could deter some people. It could I see. Could deter some people. It could deter some very very rational

deter some very very rational deter some very very rational economically driven actors. But it it economically driven actors. But it it economically driven actors. But it it fails to take into account all of the fails to take into account all of the fails to take into account all of the other things that motivate people to go other things that motivate people to go other things that motivate people to go to war and to invade and to go mad. to war and to invade and to go mad. to war and to invade and to go mad. Okay. Well, I would argue that in the Okay. Well, I would argue that in the Okay. Well, I would argue that in the 21st century, one of the reasons we have 21st century, one of the reasons we have 21st century, one of the reasons we have much fewer wars is because of the much much fewer wars is because of the much much fewer wars is because of the much more gloss tools here on this on the more gloss tools here on this on the more gloss tools here on this on the geopolitical stage. One of them is that geopolitical stage. One of them is that geopolitical stage. One of them is that we're just much more interconnected we're just much more interconnected we're just much more interconnected economically, globally interconnected. economically, globally interconnected. economically, globally interconnected. and that that is always a present and that that is always a present and that that is always a present pressure on the world to keep peace. pressure on the world to keep peace. pressure on the world to keep peace. There's a lot of money to be made from There's a lot of money to be made from There's a lot of money to be made from peace. There's also a lot of money to be peace. There's also a lot of money to be peace. There's also a lot of money to be made from war. There's just there's a made from war. There's just there's a made from war. There's just there's a lot of uh interest tension and I I'm lot of uh interest tension and I I'm lot of uh interest tension and I I'm just presenting one of the tools that a just presenting one of the tools that a just presenting one of the tools that a leader should be using. The alternative leader should be using. The alternative leader should be using. The alternative is what military force that is an is what military force that is an is what military force that is an interesting one sometimes a useful one interesting one sometimes a useful one interesting one sometimes a useful one but unfortunately it has its downsides but unfortunately it has its downsides but unfortunately it has its downsides also. And after 3 years of war and the also. And after 3 years of war and the also. And after 3 years of war and the hundreds of thousands dead, you have to hundreds of thousands dead, you have to hundreds of thousands dead, you have to start wondering what are the options on start wondering what are the options on start wondering what are the options on the table. I agree. I'm I'm obviously the table. I agree. I'm I'm obviously the table. I agree. I'm I'm obviously for economic for economic for economic cooperation, but my only caveat is not cooperation, but my only caveat is not cooperation, but my only caveat is not to think that that is something which is to think that that is something which is to think that that is something which is of of of ultimate interest or even at the top of ultimate interest or even at the top of ultimate interest or even at the top of the list of interests of uh despots, the list of interests of uh despots, the list of interests of uh despots, tyrants, extremists who want something

tyrants, extremists who want something tyrants, extremists who want something else. Yeah. else. Yeah. else. Yeah. But uh can you read the mind of Vladimir But uh can you read the mind of Vladimir But uh can you read the mind of Vladimir Putin? No. Putin? No. Putin? No. A lot of the ideas I hear about peace A lot of the ideas I hear about peace A lot of the ideas I hear about peace is Putin is Putin is Putin bad victory must be achieved NATO bad victory must be achieved NATO bad victory must be achieved NATO membership required. Yeah. There's this membership required. Yeah. There's this membership required. Yeah. There's this kind of kind of kind of like but what's the what's the there you like but what's the what's the there you like but what's the what's the there you have to come to the table to to end the have to come to the table to to end the have to come to the table to to end the killing is one and uh to have different killing is one and uh to have different killing is one and uh to have different ideas of how to uh have a nonzero chance ideas of how to uh have a nonzero chance ideas of how to uh have a nonzero chance of peace. So that you know the options of peace. So that you know the options of peace. So that you know the options are it seems to me the only are it seems to me the only are it seems to me the only option not the only option but the option not the only option but the option not the only option but the likeliest option is a lot of strong likeliest option is a lot of strong likeliest option is a lot of strong economic partnerships. There's of course economic partnerships. There's of course economic partnerships. There's of course other radical options. There's other radical options. There's other radical options. There's uh there's uh Russia joining NATO or uh there's uh Russia joining NATO or uh there's uh Russia joining NATO or something like this or there's something like this or there's something like this or there's um giving you know doing flirting with um giving you know doing flirting with um giving you know doing flirting with World War II essentially giving nukes to World War II essentially giving nukes to World War II essentially giving nukes to Ukraine or something like this. There's Ukraine or something like this. There's Ukraine or something like this. There's like crazy stuff or a totally new like crazy stuff or a totally new like crazy stuff or a totally new military alliance with France and and military alliance with France and and military alliance with France and and and Britain and Germany and uh European and Britain and Germany and uh European and Britain and Germany and uh European nations and Ukraine or some weird nations and Ukraine or some weird nations and Ukraine or some weird network of military power that threatens network of military power that threatens network of military power that threatens Russia in some way or maybe some big Russia in some way or maybe some big Russia in some way or maybe some big breakthrough partnership between India, breakthrough partnership between India, breakthrough partnership between India, China and Ukraine something like this China and Ukraine something like this China and Ukraine something like this just some really out there ideas and I

just some really out there ideas and I just some really out there ideas and I think that's how the Well, that that's think that's how the Well, that that's think that's how the Well, that that's how the world finds a balance and how the world finds a balance and how the world finds a balance and realigns itself in interesting ways. And realigns itself in interesting ways. And realigns itself in interesting ways. And look, it could be. I I I hope you're look, it could be. I I I hope you're look, it could be. I I I hope you're uh I hope your idea is right. Um I think uh I hope your idea is right. Um I think uh I hope your idea is right. Um I think it's about the well certainly the most it's about the well certainly the most it's about the well certainly the most peaceful way for this to be resolved. peaceful way for this to be resolved. peaceful way for this to be resolved. My only caveat as I say is and My only caveat as I say is and My only caveat as I say is and also never forget to factor in that also never forget to factor in that also never forget to factor in that people want different things in this people want different things in this people want different things in this world and some people don't dream as you world and some people don't dream as you world and some people don't dream as you dream. I think we'll talk about that. So dream. I think we'll talk about that. So dream. I think we'll talk about that. So in your new book death cults that one is in your new book death cults that one is in your new book death cults that one is an easier one for me to understand to an easier one for me to understand to an easier one for me to understand to the story that you're describing. the story that you're describing. the story that you're describing. I am more hesitant to assign I am more hesitant to assign I am more hesitant to assign psychopathy to leaders of major nations. psychopathy to leaders of major nations. psychopathy to leaders of major nations. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm I'm I'm not Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm I'm I'm not Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm I'm I'm not by any means urging you to regard by any means urging you to regard by any means urging you to regard Vladimir Putin as a millinarian madman Vladimir Putin as a millinarian madman Vladimir Putin as a millinarian madman who cannot be in any way understood.

who cannot be in any way understood. who cannot be in any way understood. I think he could be negotiated and I think he could be negotiated and I think he could be negotiated and reasoned with from your lips to God's reasoned with from your lips to God's reasoned with from your lips to God's ears. ears. ears. Can you steal me on the case for and Can you steal me on the case for and Can you steal me on the case for and then against Zilinski as the right then against Zilinski as the right then against Zilinski as the right leader for Ukraine at this moment? Is he leader for Ukraine at this moment? Is he leader for Ukraine at this moment? Is he the right person to take it to the the the right person to take it to the the the right person to take it to the the the point of peace? We'll see. If if if the point of peace? We'll see. If if if the point of peace? We'll see. If if if if he can, then he then of course he is. if he can, then he then of course he is. if he can, then he then of course he is. You know, he deserves enormous respect You know, he deserves enormous respect You know, he deserves enormous respect for galvanizing his people, for being for galvanizing his people, for being for galvanizing his people, for being elected in the first place, for elected in the first place, for elected in the first place, for galvanizing his nation at a time of galvanizing his nation at a time of galvanizing his nation at a time of incredible peril, incredible peril, incredible peril, um, for playing the international game um, for playing the international game um, for playing the international game of getting support for his country. of getting support for his country. of getting support for his country. Well, Well, Well, um, and sometimes the person who does um, and sometimes the person who does um, and sometimes the person who does that, not there are many people like that, not there are many people like that, not there are many people like that, can be the person who also brings that, can be the person who also brings that, can be the person who also brings about a peace deal and sometimes not. I about a peace deal and sometimes not. I about a peace deal and sometimes not. I think there's a degree to which he may think there's a degree to which he may think there's a degree to which he may have seen too much have seen too much have seen too much suffering of the people, the land he suffering of the people, the land he suffering of the people, the land he loves to be able to sit down at a table loves to be able to sit down at a table loves to be able to sit down at a table with a world leader who with a world leader who with a world leader who uh did the destruction and to be able to uh did the destruction and to be able to uh did the destruction and to be able to that is very hard that is very hard that is very hard compromise on anything.

compromise on anything. compromise on anything. That's that's possible. Again, it puts That's that's possible. Again, it puts That's that's possible. Again, it puts the onus on him though. sort of slightly the onus on him though. sort of slightly the onus on him though. sort of slightly presupposes that Putin doesn't have the presupposes that Putin doesn't have the presupposes that Putin doesn't have the same human instinct on that. It is same human instinct on that. It is same human instinct on that. It is extremely hard. I've noticed this in a extremely hard. I've noticed this in a extremely hard. I've noticed this in a lot of conflicts. It's extremely hard lot of conflicts. It's extremely hard lot of conflicts. It's extremely hard the way in which outsiders come in and the way in which outsiders come in and the way in which outsiders come in and others who haven't seen what you've seen others who haven't seen what you've seen others who haven't seen what you've seen or gone through what you've gone through or gone through what you've gone through or gone through what you've gone through and say, you know, it's time to get and say, you know, it's time to get and say, you know, it's time to get around the negotiating table and just, around the negotiating table and just, around the negotiating table and just, you know, you think you didn't see what you know, you think you didn't see what you know, you think you didn't see what I saw. You didn't go through what I went I saw. You didn't go through what I went I saw. You didn't go through what I went through. who you'd tell me. Goes back to through. who you'd tell me. Goes back to through. who you'd tell me. Goes back to that thing of the the visitor from the that thing of the the visitor from the that thing of the the visitor from the land of war and the visitor from the land of war and the visitor from the land of war and the visitor from the land of land of land of peace. The visitor from the land of peace. The visitor from the land of peace. The visitor from the land of peace can easily talk about getting peace can easily talk about getting peace can easily talk about getting around negotiating tables, but the around negotiating tables, but the around negotiating tables, but the visitor from the land of war has seen visitor from the land of war has seen visitor from the land of war has seen other things. And other things. And other things. And um it's it's very hard for somebody who um it's it's very hard for somebody who um it's it's very hard for somebody who hasn't seen it to tell the person who hasn't seen it to tell the person who hasn't seen it to tell the person who has that they has that they has that they should act differently. And the sad should act differently. And the sad should act differently. And the sad thing about humanity is both the the thing about humanity is both the the thing about humanity is both the the person from the land of peace and the person from the land of peace and the person from the land of peace and the person from the land of war are right.

person from the land of war are right. person from the land of war are right. Yes. That's a Yes. That's a Yes. That's a struggle. That's definitely a struggle. That's definitely a struggle. That's definitely a struggle. It's it's like asking somebody struggle. It's it's like asking somebody struggle. It's it's like asking somebody to forgive. I've seen that at a lot lot to forgive. I've seen that at a lot lot to forgive. I've seen that at a lot lot of ends of conflicts. People say, you of ends of conflicts. People say, you of ends of conflicts. People say, you know, the important thing is that we know, the important thing is that we know, the important thing is that we forgive and move forgive and move forgive and move on. And then the other person on. And then the other person on. And then the other person says, you know, your child didn't die of says, you know, your child didn't die of says, you know, your child didn't die of shrapnel wounds. Yeah, this is, you shrapnel wounds. Yeah, this is, you shrapnel wounds. Yeah, this is, you know, I got a lot of heat for interview know, I got a lot of heat for interview know, I got a lot of heat for interview with Zilinski. By the way, people with Zilinski. By the way, people with Zilinski. By the way, people privately, the people that messaged me privately, the people that messaged me privately, the people that messaged me is all love and support. Even the people is all love and support. Even the people is all love and support. Even the people that disagree in Ukraine, soldiers, uh, that disagree in Ukraine, soldiers, uh, that disagree in Ukraine, soldiers, uh, people online are ruthless. They're people online are ruthless. They're people online are ruthless. They're misrepresenting me. They're lying. misrepresenting me. They're lying. misrepresenting me. They're lying. People online are ruthless and People online are ruthless and People online are ruthless and misrepresenting and lying. Yeah. Good misrepresenting and lying. Yeah. Good misrepresenting and lying. Yeah. Good god, Lex. You've discovered a new uh god, Lex. You've discovered a new uh god, Lex. You've discovered a new uh phenomenon. I'm a real radical phenomenon. I'm a real radical phenomenon. I'm a real radical intellectual. intellectual. intellectual. Nothing misses your Nothing misses your Nothing misses your eye. I see the truth and I'm unafraid to eye. I see the truth and I'm unafraid to eye. I see the truth and I'm unafraid to point it out. Uh, no. There's a point it out. Uh, no. There's a point it out. Uh, no. There's a degree this this degree this this degree this this idea that idea that idea that you need to compromise with the person you need to compromise with the person you need to compromise with the person with the leader of a nation you're at with the leader of a nation you're at with the leader of a nation you're at war with and in so doing to some degree war with and in so doing to some degree war with and in so doing to some degree are forgiving their actions because the are forgiving their actions because the are forgiving their actions because the actual feeling you have is you want it actual feeling you have is you want it actual feeling you have is you want it to be fair. And the definition of fair to be fair. And the definition of fair to be fair. And the definition of fair when you've seen that much suffering is when you've seen that much suffering is when you've seen that much suffering is for him and everybody around him and for him and everybody around him and for him and everybody around him and maybe even all of the people on the

maybe even all of the people on the maybe even all of the people on the other side to just die because you've other side to just die because you've other side to just die because you've seen too much suffering. But the the seen too much suffering. But the the seen too much suffering. But the the other side of that is yes there's other side of that is yes there's other side of that is yes there's children that have died but you go children that have died but you go children that have died but you go coming to the negotiation other children coming to the negotiation other children coming to the negotiation other children from dying. Yes, of course. And so like from dying. Yes, of course. And so like from dying. Yes, of course. And so like there is just you had this kind of way there is just you had this kind of way there is just you had this kind of way of speaking about it embodying that of speaking about it embodying that of speaking about it embodying that perspective that it's naive to say to perspective that it's naive to say to perspective that it's naive to say to come to the negotiation table and it is come to the negotiation table and it is come to the negotiation table and it is for a person from the land of war but for a person from the land of war but for a person from the land of war but the very smart intelligent and not naive the very smart intelligent and not naive the very smart intelligent and not naive person from the land of peace that is person from the land of peace that is person from the land of peace that is often right in some deep sense about the often right in some deep sense about the often right in some deep sense about the long arc of long arc of long arc of history for them it does it is the right history for them it does it is the right history for them it does it is the right thing to come to the negotiation table thing to come to the negotiation table thing to come to the negotiation table to end the more killing. The one thing I to end the more killing. The one thing I to end the more killing. The one thing I would add to that though is, you know, would add to that though is, you know, would add to that though is, you know, don't forget that it it's also depends don't forget that it it's also depends don't forget that it it's also depends on whether or not there's a clear shot on whether or not there's a clear shot on whether or not there's a clear shot of winning. of winning. of winning. Sure. If there's a clear shot of Sure. If there's a clear shot of Sure. If there's a clear shot of winning, and that's a the most important winning, and that's a the most important winning, and that's a the most important the most important thing in wars is not the most important thing in wars is not the most important thing in wars is not uh final negotiations or anything like uh final negotiations or anything like uh final negotiations or anything like that. It's simply winning and losing.

that. It's simply winning and losing. that. It's simply winning and losing. And if you have a clear shot of winning And if you have a clear shot of winning And if you have a clear shot of winning and you can take it and you're near it, and you can take it and you're near it, and you can take it and you're near it, um then having somebody else come in and um then having somebody else come in and um then having somebody else come in and saying, "Uh, why not stop just before saying, "Uh, why not stop just before saying, "Uh, why not stop just before victory is is is very hard." That's one victory is is is very hard." That's one victory is is is very hard." That's one of the complex one of the many many of the complex one of the many many of the complex one of the many many complexities of the conflict we're complexities of the conflict we're complexities of the conflict we're talking about. You know what's the the talking about. You know what's the the talking about. You know what's the the other big complexity of that? Because other big complexity of that? Because other big complexity of that? Because the clear shot of winning is like a man the clear shot of winning is like a man the clear shot of winning is like a man walking through the desert seeing water. walking through the desert seeing water. walking through the desert seeing water. Uh it could be during war. It really is Uh it could be during war. It really is Uh it could be during war. It really is an illusion. So here's what happens. The an illusion. So here's what happens. The an illusion. So here's what happens. The really complicated aspect of really complicated aspect of really complicated aspect of negotiation is in order to negotiation is in order to negotiation is in order to negotiate peace from a place of negotiate peace from a place of negotiate peace from a place of strength, you have to have victory in strength, you have to have victory in strength, you have to have victory in sight. Yes. And so the temptation from sight. Yes. And so the temptation from sight. Yes. And so the temptation from that position is to not negotiate, is to that position is to not negotiate, is to that position is to not negotiate, is to keep pushing forward to achieve victory. keep pushing forward to achieve victory. keep pushing forward to achieve victory. And this I would say And this I would say And this I would say uh hindsight is 2020 but this is the uh hindsight is 2020 but this is the uh hindsight is 2020 but this is the failure in 22 and two occasions to failure in 22 and two occasions to failure in 22 and two occasions to achieve to negotiate a ceasefire and achieve to negotiate a ceasefire and achieve to negotiate a ceasefire and peace. One in the spring because there peace. One in the spring because there peace. One in the spring because there was a Ukraine was in a real big I would was a Ukraine was in a real big I would was a Ukraine was in a real big I would say position of strength he have having say position of strength he have having say position of strength he have having fended off the Russian forces around fended off the Russian forces around fended off the Russian forces around Kiev. That's one. And then as you Kiev. That's one. And then as you Kiev. That's one. And then as you mentioned in the fall of 22 with with mentioned in the fall of 22 with with mentioned in the fall of 22 with with Hersan and Hardgave had a lot of Hersan and Hardgave had a lot of Hersan and Hardgave had a lot of military success. They were in a place

military success. They were in a place military success. They were in a place of strength and from that place they've of strength and from that place they've of strength and from that place they've decided to keep going because victory decided to keep going because victory decided to keep going because victory was in sight. But that was also an was in sight. But that was also an was in sight. But that was also an opportunity to make peace. It's opportunity to make peace. It's opportunity to make peace. It's perfectly possible. Yes. That's the hard perfectly possible. Yes. That's the hard perfectly possible. Yes. That's the hard thing. It's very hard. It's all hard. thing. It's very hard. It's all hard. thing. It's very hard. It's all hard. But I'm just again But I'm just again But I'm just again it's victory can be won in wars and is it's victory can be won in wars and is it's victory can be won in wars and is often won in wars. Uh and you're right, often won in wars. Uh and you're right, often won in wars. Uh and you're right, they can also grind on because they can also grind on because they can also grind on because nobody has the capability to make a nobody has the capability to make a nobody has the capability to make a breakthrough. Uh it's a case I mean the breakthrough. Uh it's a case I mean the breakthrough. Uh it's a case I mean the wisdom about civil wars tends to be that wisdom about civil wars tends to be that wisdom about civil wars tends to be that they sort of burn out after about 10 they sort of burn out after about 10 they sort of burn out after about 10 years or so years or so years or so uh for similar reasons. When you're in uh for similar reasons. When you're in uh for similar reasons. When you're in the war, can you actually know that a the war, can you actually know that a the war, can you actually know that a victory can be won? It's a very good victory can be won? It's a very good victory can be won? It's a very good question. And question. And question. And um you mean troops on the battlefield or um you mean troops on the battlefield or um you mean troops on the battlefield or military leaders or political leaders? military leaders or political leaders? military leaders or political leaders? Military and political leaders. It just Military and political leaders. It just Military and political leaders. It just feels like like I said man in the desert feels like like I said man in the desert feels like like I said man in the desert seeing water. I think there's a sense seeing water. I think there's a sense seeing water. I think there's a sense that victory is so that victory is so that victory is so close. There times there's times in a close. There times there's times in a close. There times there's times in a war when you feel like victory is close.

war when you feel like victory is close. war when you feel like victory is close. No, you're right. It's and it just slips No, you're right. It's and it just slips No, you're right. It's and it just slips away. Yes. It's an interesting insight. away. Yes. It's an interesting insight. away. Yes. It's an interesting insight. It's like the way in which um there's a It's like the way in which um there's a It's like the way in which um there's a there's a force in nature which is that there's a force in nature which is that there's a force in nature which is that if you amass an army if you amass an army if you amass an army [Music] [Music] [Music] um amassing it will pull you in to using um amassing it will pull you in to using um amassing it will pull you in to using it. Yeah. Extremely hard to amass an it. Yeah. Extremely hard to amass an it. Yeah. Extremely hard to amass an army somewhere and then say let's go army somewhere and then say let's go army somewhere and then say let's go back. back. back. Yes, you're right. No, it's it's one of Yes, you're right. No, it's it's one of Yes, you're right. No, it's it's one of many many interesting aspects to many many interesting aspects to many many interesting aspects to warfare. I think the sad thing about warfare. I think the sad thing about warfare. I think the sad thing about successful wars, at least in the modern successful wars, at least in the modern successful wars, at least in the modern day, is it takes a great military day, is it takes a great military day, is it takes a great military leader, which I would argue that leader, which I would argue that leader, which I would argue that Zalinski really unified Ukraine in this Zalinski really unified Ukraine in this Zalinski really unified Ukraine in this fight in the beginning of the war. Mhm. fight in the beginning of the war. Mhm. fight in the beginning of the war. Mhm. You have to be that. And like you said, You have to be that. And like you said, You have to be that. And like you said, after either you amass the army and have after either you amass the army and have after either you amass the army and have military success to be able to step back military success to be able to step back military success to be able to step back and make peace that those two just don't and make peace that those two just don't and make peace that those two just don't often go hand in hand because again as a often go hand in hand because again as a often go hand in hand because again as a wartime leader, especially one who has wartime leader, especially one who has wartime leader, especially one who has seen the suffering firsthand, seen the suffering firsthand, seen the suffering firsthand, [Music] [Music] [Music] walking away is uh is tough, especially walking away is uh is tough, especially walking away is uh is tough, especially also combined with that just the also combined with that just the also combined with that just the realities of war where there is probably realities of war where there is probably realities of war where there is probably corruption that there There is things corruption that there There is things corruption that there There is things you know once the war ends there has to you know once the war ends there has to you know once the war ends there has to be investigations because the war wasn't be investigations because the war wasn't be investigations because the war wasn't won you might not turn out to be when won you might not turn out to be when won you might not turn out to be when history looks at it the good guy and a

history looks at it the good guy and a history looks at it the good guy and a leader doesn't want to a leader always leader doesn't want to a leader always leader doesn't want to a leader always wants to be the good guy. So there's wants to be the good guy. So there's wants to be the good guy. So there's just all psychological complexities that just all psychological complexities that just all psychological complexities that are and you look at this whole picture are and you look at this whole picture are and you look at this whole picture uh in in the basic sense if you want uh in in the basic sense if you want uh in in the basic sense if you want Ukraine to flourish if you want humanity Ukraine to flourish if you want humanity Ukraine to flourish if you want humanity to flourish you just ask the question to flourish you just ask the question to flourish you just ask the question okay so what is the thing I would like okay so what is the thing I would like okay so what is the thing I would like to to to see there's so many historical analogy see there's so many historical analogy see there's so many historical analogy you can give you can give you can give but just but just but just surely not surely not surely not rewarding Putin's action ictions in any rewarding Putin's action ictions in any rewarding Putin's action ictions in any way would be a good way to deter him and way would be a good way to deter him and way would be a good way to deter him and other dictators from trying to grab other dictators from trying to grab other dictators from trying to grab land in the land in the land in the future. So yeah, and but this it's future. So yeah, and but this it's future. So yeah, and but this it's nuanced because like you it's very nuanced because like you it's very nuanced because like you it's very probably good to be the boring person at probably good to be the boring person at probably good to be the boring person at the party that says dictatorships are the party that says dictatorships are the party that says dictatorships are bad, bad, bad, uh democracies are good. Many of the uh democracies are good. Many of the uh democracies are good. Many of the ideals of the west democracies are ideals of the west democracies are ideals of the west democracies are better better. Yes, that sounds like better better. Yes, that sounds like better better. Yes, that sounds like animal farm but yes two legs better but animal farm but yes two legs better but animal farm but yes two legs better but yes democracy is better and uh invading yes democracy is better and uh invading yes democracy is better and uh invading countries is bad.

countries is bad. countries is bad. Uh but World War II is bad too. Uh but World War II is bad too. Uh but World War II is bad too. So after you say something is bad, So after you say something is bad, So after you say something is bad, what's the next step? Cuz military what's the next step? Cuz military what's the next step? Cuz military intervention in a lot of these conflicts intervention in a lot of these conflicts intervention in a lot of these conflicts it'll be about deterrence. Yeah. But it'll be about deterrence. Yeah. But it'll be about deterrence. Yeah. But what's what's effective deterrence that what's what's effective deterrence that what's what's effective deterrence that we're going to have to keep going over we're going to have to keep going over we're going to have to keep going over for a long time to come? My question is for a long time to come? My question is for a long time to come? My question is how can we achieve how can we achieve how can we achieve peace in peace in peace in April, in May, right? Not like the April, in May, right? Not like the April, in May, right? Not like the adults at the table all seem to tell me, adults at the table all seem to tell me, adults at the table all seem to tell me, well, it's a process. It's complicated. well, it's a process. It's complicated. well, it's a process. It's complicated. you know, there it just feels like this you know, there it just feels like this you know, there it just feels like this is a thing that might go into the next is a thing that might go into the next is a thing that might go into the next winter and there's still um maybe winter and there's still um maybe winter and there's still um maybe initial ceasefire and the ceasefire is initial ceasefire and the ceasefire is initial ceasefire and the ceasefire is broken and there's more people dying. broken and there's more people dying. broken and there's more people dying. Sure. And it it's that Sure. And it it's that Sure. And it it's that mess. It seems like civility and mess. It seems like civility and mess. It seems like civility and politeness politeness politeness ignores the fact that people are dying ignores the fact that people are dying ignores the fact that people are dying every single day. I mean, of course, every single day. I mean, of course, every single day. I mean, of course, like we all almost everybody, not like we all almost everybody, not like we all almost everybody, not everybody, but almost everyone would everybody, but almost everyone would everybody, but almost everyone would like the killing to stop immediately. Of like the killing to stop immediately. Of like the killing to stop immediately. Of course. No, like I I think that is the course. No, like I I think that is the course. No, like I I think that is the boring thing at the party. Yes, but they boring thing at the party. Yes, but they boring thing at the party. Yes, but they don't say it often enough. Not often.

don't say it often enough. Not often. don't say it often enough. Not often. There has to be a frustration. There has There has to be a frustration. There has There has to be a frustration. There has to be a frustration. I don't understand to be a frustration. I don't understand to be a frustration. I don't understand why Putin, Zilinski, and Trump can't why Putin, Zilinski, and Trump can't why Putin, Zilinski, and Trump can't just meet in a room together without just meet in a room together without just meet in a room together without signing signing signing anything. Leaders meeting and discussing anything. Leaders meeting and discussing anything. Leaders meeting and discussing and like the human connection there. and like the human connection there. and like the human connection there. There's so many layers of diplomats. There's so many layers of diplomats. There's so many layers of diplomats. It's the problem I have with a It's the problem I have with a It's the problem I have with a managerial class. I don't they they managerial class. I don't they they managerial class. I don't they they schedule meetings really well. They schedule meetings really well. They schedule meetings really well. They don't get done. And I I I would don't get done. And I I I would don't get done. And I I I would love it if people got done. So the love it if people got done. So the love it if people got done. So the soldiers get done. soldiers get done. soldiers get done. They have they're fighting the reality They have they're fighting the reality They have they're fighting the reality of the war. And then the leaders have of the war. And then the leaders have of the war. And then the leaders have the capacity to get done on the on the capacity to get done on the on the capacity to get done on the on the scale of nations and geopolitics. the scale of nations and geopolitics. the scale of nations and geopolitics. But like this diplomatic meetings and But like this diplomatic meetings and But like this diplomatic meetings and No, I agree. I share your frustration No, I agree. I share your frustration No, I agree. I share your frustration about At the same time, I think about At the same time, I think about At the same time, I think um I share your frustration because I've um I share your frustration because I've um I share your frustration because I've seen it all a lot of it, you know, with seen it all a lot of it, you know, with seen it all a lot of it, you know, with my own eyes. I mean, there was a batan my own eyes. I mean, there was a batan my own eyes. I mean, there was a batan as I was with the other week and they as I was with the other week and they as I was with the other week and they were hit just after I left their base were hit just after I left their base were hit just after I left their base and you wouldn't believe what a and you wouldn't believe what a and you wouldn't believe what a thermabaric bomb can do to the human body.

body. And I share your frustration with that. And I share your frustration with that. And I share your frustration with that. At the same time, one of the things that At the same time, one of the things that At the same time, one of the things that happens if you are happens if you are happens if you are rushing is that you do, and I've seen rushing is that you do, and I've seen rushing is that you do, and I've seen this elsewhere, you you will put this elsewhere, you you will put this elsewhere, you you will put pressure on the people you can pressure on the people you can pressure on the people you can pressurize, and you will not put enough pressurize, and you will not put enough pressurize, and you will not put enough pressure on the people you can't pressure on the people you can't pressure on the people you can't pressurize. And that is one of the pressurize. And that is one of the pressurize. And that is one of the worrying things that could happen with worrying things that could happen with worrying things that could happen with this. simply you can put America can put this. simply you can put America can put this. simply you can put America can put extraordinary uh diplomatic, financial, intelligence, uh diplomatic, financial, intelligence, military pressure on military pressure on military pressure on Ukraine and it can put significant Ukraine and it can put significant Ukraine and it can put significant pressure on Putin, but it's much easier pressure on Putin, but it's much easier pressure on Putin, but it's much easier to pressure Zalinski and that's one of to pressure Zalinski and that's one of to pressure Zalinski and that's one of the many things that makes it harder is the many things that makes it harder is the many things that makes it harder is that the temptation to rush for peace that the temptation to rush for peace that the temptation to rush for peace except accepting that peace is the most except accepting that peace is the most except accepting that peace is the most desirable thing, accepting the horrors desirable thing, accepting the horrors desirable thing, accepting the horrors of war, which you know we can linger on, of war, which you know we can linger on, of war, which you know we can linger on, but you accepting all that. If somebody but you accepting all that. If somebody but you accepting all that. If somebody says we've got to get peace today and says we've got to get peace today and says we've got to get peace today and the three of them around a table, the the three of them around a table, the the three of them around a table, the most likely thing is that it'll be that most likely thing is that it'll be that most likely thing is that it'll be that it'll be the person who you can pressure it'll be the person who you can pressure it'll be the person who you can pressure most easily, who will be the person that most easily, who will be the person that most easily, who will be the person that you pressure and as a result have an you pressure and as a result have an you pressure and as a result have an outcome which yes might stop the killing outcome which yes might stop the killing outcome which yes might stop the killing as soon as possible, but might also set as soon as possible, but might also set as soon as possible, but might also set up a situation which rewards the up a situation which rewards the up a situation which rewards the aggressor and effectively punishes the

aggressor and effectively punishes the aggressor and effectively punishes the victim. And that's an extremely victim. And that's an extremely victim. And that's an extremely ugly and common thing to happen. Yeah. ugly and common thing to happen. Yeah. ugly and common thing to happen. Yeah. And that's the other boring thing to And that's the other boring thing to And that's the other boring thing to say, the boring truth that uh the easy say, the boring truth that uh the easy say, the boring truth that uh the easy shortcut here is shortcut here is shortcut here is uh is to punish Ukraine and uh is to punish Ukraine and uh is to punish Ukraine and you just have to not do it. Let's keep you just have to not do it. Let's keep you just have to not do it. Let's keep being the boring people of the party. being the boring people of the party. being the boring people of the party. Yeah. Well, nobody's going to invite us. All right, let's go from us. All right, let's go from one complicated one complicated one complicated conflict to uh perhaps an even more conflict to uh perhaps an even more conflict to uh perhaps an even more complicated complicated complicated one, Israel and Palestine. Can you uh take me through Palestine. Can you uh take me through what happened on October 7th as you what happened on October 7th as you what happened on October 7th as you understand it and as you outline at the understand it and as you outline at the understand it and as you outline at the beginning of the book? Well, the book on beginning of the book? Well, the book on beginning of the book? Well, the book on democracies and death cults is a mixture democracies and death cults is a mixture democracies and death cults is a mixture of firsthand reporting and observation of firsthand reporting and observation of firsthand reporting and observation interviews and a wider reflection not interviews and a wider reflection not interviews and a wider reflection not just on the war that's been going on just on the war that's been going on just on the war that's been going on since the 7th October but the war that's since the 7th October but the war that's since the 7th October but the war that's been going on a lot been going on a lot been going on a lot longer and also I suppose on the what longer and also I suppose on the what longer and also I suppose on the what for me is one of the overwhelming for me is one of the overwhelming for me is one of the overwhelming questions which I'm sure we'll get to questions which I'm sure we'll get to questions which I'm sure we'll get to which is the reaction in the rest of the which is the reaction in the rest of the which is the reaction in the rest of the world. Obviously on the 7th itself it world. Obviously on the 7th itself it world. Obviously on the 7th itself it was a brigades size attack on Israel was a brigades size attack on Israel was a brigades size attack on Israel from Gaza. Uh from Gaza. Uh from Gaza. Uh Hamas broke through the security fence

Hamas broke through the security fence Hamas broke through the security fence and uh attacked all the softest targets and uh attacked all the softest targets and uh attacked all the softest targets they could. Uh they swiftly overwhelmed they could. Uh they swiftly overwhelmed they could. Uh they swiftly overwhelmed things like the observation base in things like the observation base in things like the observation base in Nahal. Nahal. Nahal. They ran through the communities in the They ran through the communities in the They ran through the communities in the south uh very peaceful peace neck effect south uh very peaceful peace neck effect south uh very peaceful peace neck effect communities of the kibbutim as they're communities of the kibbutim as they're communities of the kibbutim as they're called communities called communities called communities um and murdered and raped and burned and um and murdered and raped and burned and um and murdered and raped and burned and kidnapped kidnapped kidnapped and of course they from their point of and of course they from their point of and of course they from their point of view had the great good fortune of also view had the great good fortune of also view had the great good fortune of also coming across hundreds of young people coming across hundreds of young people coming across hundreds of young people dancing in the early hours of the dancing in the early hours of the dancing in the early hours of the morning at a dance party morning at a dance party morning at a dance party and rampaged through that with RPGs and and rampaged through that with RPGs and and rampaged through that with RPGs and Kashnikovs and grenades and hammers and Kashnikovs and grenades and hammers and Kashnikovs and grenades and hammers and more and uh got within well 20 more and uh got within well 20 more and uh got within well 20 kilometers into kilometers into kilometers into Israel on places like Offakim and Sterat Israel on places like Offakim and Sterat Israel on places like Offakim and Sterat important towns and carried out their important towns and carried out their important towns and carried out their massacres there as well. We now know massacres there as well. We now know massacres there as well. We now know that the plan was that Hezbollah did the that the plan was that Hezbollah did the that the plan was that Hezbollah did the same thing from the north. Hezbollah same thing from the north. Hezbollah same thing from the north. Hezbollah joined in the war within 24 hours by joined in the war within 24 hours by joined in the war within 24 hours by starting firing rockets again in very starting firing rockets again in very starting firing rockets again in very large numbers into northern Israel from large numbers into northern Israel from large numbers into northern Israel from southern southern southern Lebanon. But the plan was that they Lebanon. But the plan was that they Lebanon. But the plan was that they would do the same thing from the north would do the same thing from the north would do the same thing from the north and carry out similar massacres there and carry out similar massacres there and carry out similar massacres there and effectively be able to meet in the and effectively be able to meet in the and effectively be able to meet in the middle and gar Israel from the center.

middle and gar Israel from the center. middle and gar Israel from the center. The interesting reason why I think it'll The interesting reason why I think it'll The interesting reason why I think it'll be found out in the future, but why they be found out in the future, but why they be found out in the future, but why they didn't coordinate better was Hamas didn't coordinate better was Hamas didn't coordinate better was Hamas didn't trust any line of communication didn't trust any line of communication didn't trust any line of communication to Hezbollah to let them know exactly to Hezbollah to let them know exactly to Hezbollah to let them know exactly when they were going to do it that when they were going to do it that when they were going to do it that wouldn't be in it that wouldn't be wouldn't be in it that wouldn't be wouldn't be in it that wouldn't be intercepted. The Iranian revolutionary intercepted. The Iranian revolutionary intercepted. The Iranian revolutionary government in Thran, which obviously government in Thran, which obviously government in Thran, which obviously funds Hamz and Hezbollah and trains and funds Hamz and Hezbollah and trains and funds Hamz and Hezbollah and trains and arms, knew of the plan. It was a very arms, knew of the plan. It was a very arms, knew of the plan. It was a very successful attempt to annihilate the successful attempt to annihilate the successful attempt to annihilate the state, but they didn't get close to state, but they didn't get close to state, but they didn't get close to that, but they got worryingly closer that, but they got worryingly closer that, but they got worryingly closer than people might have thought they were than people might have thought they were than people might have thought they were capable of. I think from the Israeli capable of. I think from the Israeli capable of. I think from the Israeli side, uh it was obviously one of the side, uh it was obviously one of the side, uh it was obviously one of the most, if not the most most, if not the most most, if not the most catastrophic intelligence and military catastrophic intelligence and military catastrophic intelligence and military failure since the foundation of the failure since the foundation of the failure since the foundation of the state. And I think there are several state. And I think there are several state. And I think there are several reasons reasons reasons why. One is a perception problem. What a why. One is a perception problem. What a why. One is a perception problem. What a lot of military commanders and others lot of military commanders and others lot of military commanders and others described to me as the conception, the described to me as the conception, the described to me as the conception, the conception that had prevailed in Israel conception that had prevailed in Israel conception that had prevailed in Israel for some years and security military for some years and security military for some years and security military establishment was that establishment was that establishment was that Hamas were content with being corrupt Hamas were content with being corrupt Hamas were content with being corrupt and governing Gaza and you and governing Gaza and you and governing Gaza and you know lining their pockets and living in know lining their pockets and living in know lining their pockets and living in uh Qatar and becoming billionaires. But uh Qatar and becoming billionaires. But uh Qatar and becoming billionaires. But that like many other terrorist groups that like many other terrorist groups that like many other terrorist groups and you know cults that they would end and you know cults that they would end and you know cults that they would end up becoming just corrupt up becoming just corrupt up becoming just corrupt and not losing their ideology but the

and not losing their ideology but the and not losing their ideology but the ideology becomes secondary. ideology becomes secondary. ideology becomes secondary. That's the first thing was there was That's the first thing was there was That's the first thing was there was just a massive error of the conception just a massive error of the conception just a massive error of the conception in Israel and then then there the in Israel and then then there the in Israel and then then there the multiple manifold security and military multiple manifold security and military multiple manifold security and military failures of the day and leading up to failures of the day and leading up to failures of the day and leading up to the day. Um and there will be a there the day. Um and there will be a there the day. Um and there will be a there already have been quite a lot of people already have been quite a lot of people already have been quite a lot of people held to account for that and there held to account for that and there held to account for that and there doubtless will be in the future as well. doubtless will be in the future as well. doubtless will be in the future as well. Um the the single Um the the single Um the the single uh thing I heard which I heard most and uh thing I heard which I heard most and uh thing I heard which I heard most and which was most distressing in a way was which was most distressing in a way was which was most distressing in a way was the number of people who described to me the number of people who described to me the number of people who described to me you know who survived the massacres in you know who survived the massacres in you know who survived the massacres in the south who said that you know they'd the south who said that you know they'd the south who said that you know they'd said to their children don't worry the said to their children don't worry the said to their children don't worry the army will be here in minutes and they army will be here in minutes and they army will be here in minutes and they weren't you know many places it was many weren't you know many places it was many weren't you know many places it was many hours till the army got there. Um and hours till the army got there. Um and hours till the army got there. Um and there are reasons for that. There are there are reasons for that. There are there are reasons for that. There are some reasons that will be military some reasons that will be military some reasons that will be military failings, leadership failings, leadership failings, leadership failings. Other things were very I I failings. Other things were very I I failings. Other things were very I I discovered were very human discovered were very human discovered were very human failings. I don't want to overstress the failings. I don't want to overstress the failings. I don't want to overstress the failure of the army because actually failure of the army because actually failure of the army because actually certain units and things got down very certain units and things got down very certain units and things got down very fast. There's a unit of Dan who got down fast. There's a unit of Dan who got down fast. There's a unit of Dan who got down to the junction you know by within about to the junction you know by within about to the junction you know by within about an hour 90 minutes of the massacres an hour 90 minutes of the massacres an hour 90 minutes of the massacres starting and joined in the fight and starting and joined in the fight and starting and joined in the fight and then there were self starters who I

then there were self starters who I then there were self starters who I write about in the book extraordinary write about in the book extraordinary write about in the book extraordinary people who just like broke orders and people who just like broke orders and people who just like broke orders and just realized the magnitude of what was just realized the magnitude of what was just realized the magnitude of what was happening and said we're needed in the happening and said we're needed in the happening and said we're needed in the south go and fought very hard for hours south go and fought very hard for hours south go and fought very hard for hours days in some days in some days in some cases but the complexities on the ground cases but the complexities on the ground cases but the complexities on the ground were unbelievable. I mean, as as usually were unbelievable. I mean, as as usually were unbelievable. I mean, as as usually happens in warfare, but what they call happens in warfare, but what they call happens in warfare, but what they call the fog of war is a very real thing. You the fog of war is a very real thing. You the fog of war is a very real thing. You you you know what it's you can see it in you you know what it's you can see it in you you know what it's you can see it in hindsight, but you can't see when you're hindsight, but you can't see when you're hindsight, but you can't see when you're in it. And one of the things that made in it. And one of the things that made in it. And one of the things that made it very complicated was for instance it very complicated was for instance it very complicated was for instance Hamas coming in Hamas coming in Hamas coming in uh taking uniforms off dead Israelis uh taking uniforms off dead Israelis uh taking uniforms off dead Israelis uh wearing them uh coming in with uh wearing them uh coming in with uh wearing them uh coming in with Israeli style um apparatus on them. Israeli style um apparatus on them. Israeli style um apparatus on them. There's a Muslim doctor I quote in the There's a Muslim doctor I quote in the There's a Muslim doctor I quote in the book I interviewed who describes how he book I interviewed who describes how he book I interviewed who describes how he was going to his he's an Israeli Muslim was going to his he's an Israeli Muslim was going to his he's an Israeli Muslim Arab and he was going to he's a doctor Arab and he was going to he's a doctor Arab and he was going to he's a doctor he was going to his shift at the he was going to his shift at the he was going to his shift at the hospital at 6:30 in the morning the hospital at 6:30 in the morning the hospital at 6:30 in the morning the rockets start coming in because the rockets start coming in because the rockets start coming in because the rockets started first and then the the rockets started first and then the the rockets started first and then the the full invasion and he described to me how full invasion and he described to me how full invasion and he described to me how um you know he's one of the members of um you know he's one of the members of um you know he's one of the members of this group hat the United Hatsella which this group hat the United Hatsella which this group hat the United Hatsella which is a first responders group and um they is a first responders group and um they is a first responders group and um they sort of, you know, they get an alert and sort of, you know, they get an alert and sort of, you know, they get an alert and it tells them that, you know, a car has it tells them that, you know, a car has it tells them that, you know, a car has crashed nearby and they they they put on crashed nearby and they they they put on crashed nearby and they they they put on their uh, you know, first aid kit and so

their uh, you know, first aid kit and so their uh, you know, first aid kit and so on and go and he got one of those alerts on and go and he got one of those alerts on and go and he got one of those alerts at one of the junctions and uh realized at one of the junctions and uh realized at one of the junctions and uh realized there was a car that something had there was a car that something had there was a car that something had happened and there were some dead bodies happened and there were some dead bodies happened and there were some dead bodies and he he stops and he sees these men and he he stops and he sees these men and he he stops and he sees these men dressed as dressed as dressed as soldiers. Uh, and they start and he's soldiers. Uh, and they start and he's soldiers. Uh, and they start and he's wearing his hats gear and they start wearing his hats gear and they start wearing his hats gear and they start firing at him and he just thinks, "What firing at him and he just thinks, "What firing at him and he just thinks, "What the hell? what the hell is going on? And the hell? what the hell is going on? And the hell? what the hell is going on? And uh they turned out to be Hammaz dressed uh they turned out to be Hammaz dressed uh they turned out to be Hammaz dressed as Israeli soldiers. They uh used him as as Israeli soldiers. They uh used him as as Israeli soldiers. They uh used him as a human shield to try to protect from a human shield to try to protect from a human shield to try to protect from any air assault any air assault any air assault and in the end they shot him and left and in the end they shot him and left and in the end they shot him and left him and he survived. He's a very very him and he survived. He's a very very him and he survived. He's a very very brave man. Um so there was a lot of brave man. Um so there was a lot of brave man. Um so there was a lot of confusion like that. There was a girl confusion like that. There was a girl confusion like that. There was a girl whose whose whose father I interviewed, she was at the father I interviewed, she was at the father I interviewed, she was at the Nova party and uh I met him at one of Nova party and uh I met him at one of Nova party and uh I met him at one of the reunions of the party in the weeks the reunions of the party in the weeks the reunions of the party in the weeks after and the reunions of the survivors after and the reunions of the survivors after and the reunions of the survivors and the family and so on and he and the family and so on and he and the family and so on and he described how in the last moments of his described how in the last moments of his described how in the last moments of his daughter's life, she phoned him on her daughter's life, she phoned him on her daughter's life, she phoned him on her phone like a lot of people. you he phone like a lot of people. you he phone like a lot of people. you he reassured her that army would get there reassured her that army would get there reassured her that army would get there and so on and and her boyfriend was shot and so on and and her boyfriend was shot and so on and and her boyfriend was shot in the head and was lying on her lap and in the head and was lying on her lap and in the head and was lying on her lap and she was obviously panicked and they she was obviously panicked and they she was obviously panicked and they managed to get into a car and escape the managed to get into a car and escape the managed to get into a car and escape the party but they went to a a community party but they went to a a community party but they went to a a community where they thought they'd be safe in the where they thought they'd be safe in the where they thought they'd be safe in the south of Israel and they were told to south of Israel and they were told to south of Israel and they were told to stay where they were by somebody who she stay where they were by somebody who she stay where they were by somebody who she said was a policeman and he wasn't the said was a policeman and he wasn't the said was a policeman and he wasn't the policeman he was Hermes dressed as

policeman he was Hermes dressed as policeman he was Hermes dressed as police and uh she died she was shot and police and uh she died she was shot and police and uh she died she was shot and and killed as well And um so there was a and killed as well And um so there was a and killed as well And um so there was a lot of confusion like lot of confusion like lot of confusion like that. Uh it that. Uh it that. Uh it it hopefully we you know the world will it hopefully we you know the world will it hopefully we you know the world will find out exactly what went wrong. Israel find out exactly what went wrong. Israel find out exactly what went wrong. Israel will find out exactly what went wrong will find out exactly what went wrong will find out exactly what went wrong that led to this catastrophe but I mean that led to this catastrophe but I mean that led to this catastrophe but I mean it it was a a complete catastrophe. Do it it was a a complete catastrophe. Do it it was a a complete catastrophe. Do you have a sense of how such an you have a sense of how such an you have a sense of how such an intelligence failure could have intelligence failure could have intelligence failure could have happened? So there's a a bit of a happened? So there's a a bit of a happened? So there's a a bit of a temptation to go into conspiracy land temptation to go into conspiracy land temptation to go into conspiracy land because it's such a giant intelligence because it's such a giant intelligence because it's such a giant intelligence failure. It seems that there was um some failure. It seems that there was um some failure. It seems that there was um some manipulation on the inside for political manipulation on the inside for political manipulation on the inside for political reasons or for you don't need to go into reasons or for you don't need to go into reasons or for you don't need to go into conspiracy land. I mean I think there conspiracy land. I mean I think there conspiracy land. I mean I think there are people who say that there were parts are people who say that there were parts are people who say that there were parts of the intelligence network and so on of the intelligence network and so on of the intelligence network and so on that were trying that were withholding that were trying that were withholding that were trying that were withholding the information. I don't know again the information. I don't know again the information. I don't know again people will find out. Um there's an people will find out. Um there's an people will find out. Um there's an awful lot of politics inside Israel and awful lot of politics inside Israel and awful lot of politics inside Israel and uh it's it's it's hard to know that at uh it's it's it's hard to know that at uh it's it's it's hard to know that at this stage. I think most people are sort this stage. I think most people are sort this stage. I think most people are sort of still Israeli and not Israeli of still Israeli and not Israeli of still Israeli and not Israeli including people who are anti-Israel who including people who are anti-Israel who including people who are anti-Israel who just believe that you know Israeli just believe that you know Israeli just believe that you know Israeli military and particularly intelligence military and particularly intelligence military and particularly intelligence dominance is so so strong that there dominance is so so strong that there dominance is so so strong that there must have been some kind of conspiracy must have been some kind of conspiracy must have been some kind of conspiracy otherwise how could this have happened?

otherwise how could this have happened? otherwise how could this have happened? I don't think you need to go into that. I don't think you need to go into that. I don't think you need to go into that. I think that I mean for instance some of I think that I mean for instance some of I think that I mean for instance some of the young women at the observation base the young women at the observation base the young women at the observation base have are on the record. They've said have are on the record. They've said have are on the record. They've said I've spoken to them myself and they who I've spoken to them myself and they who I've spoken to them myself and they who said that they had been warning in the said that they had been warning in the said that they had been warning in the weeks running up to the 7th that they weeks running up to the 7th that they weeks running up to the 7th that they were seeing uh maneuvers and training by were seeing uh maneuvers and training by were seeing uh maneuvers and training by the border which suggested that Hamas the border which suggested that Hamas the border which suggested that Hamas was was going to do something like this. was was going to do something like this. was was going to do something like this. and they say that they were and they say that they were and they say that they were ignored that you speak to some of the ignored that you speak to some of the ignored that you speak to some of the more senior commanders about that and more senior commanders about that and more senior commanders about that and they say the thing is that this stuff they say the thing is that this stuff they say the thing is that this stuff was happening all the was happening all the was happening all the time. So it's very hard it's very hard time. So it's very hard it's very hard time. So it's very hard it's very hard to know at the moment. to know at the moment. to know at the moment. Can you talk through your understanding Can you talk through your understanding Can you talk through your understanding of who and what Hamas is, its history of who and what Hamas is, its history of who and what Hamas is, its history and u the governing and u the governing and u the governing ideology of this group. Well, Hamas in a ideology of this group. Well, Hamas in a ideology of this group. Well, Hamas in a way quite easy to understand because way quite easy to understand because way quite easy to understand because they they say what their ambitions are. they they say what their ambitions are. they they say what their ambitions are. They say what their beliefs are. They've They say what their beliefs are. They've They say what their beliefs are. They've seen it said it from their governing seen it said it from their governing seen it said it from their governing charter onwards. And you also have the charter onwards. And you also have the charter onwards. And you also have the advantage with Hamz that they as it were advantage with Hamz that they as it were advantage with Hamz that they as it were in trying to understand them is that in trying to understand them is that in trying to understand them is that they they tend to do what they say and they they tend to do what they say and they they tend to do what they say and um act on what they believe. The primary um act on what they believe. The primary um act on what they believe. The primary aim of Hamas is to destroy the state of aim of Hamas is to destroy the state of aim of Hamas is to destroy the state of Israel and then see they're not an Israel and then see they're not an Israel and then see they're not an unusual group. Sadly, the the bit of it unusual group. Sadly, the the bit of it unusual group. Sadly, the the bit of it that is hard for some people to that is hard for some people to that is hard for some people to understand I think is that is that they understand I think is that is that they understand I think is that is that they really do mean what they say and that

really do mean what they say and that really do mean what they say and that they really do mean what they say they they really do mean what they say they they really do mean what they say they want to do. And I give a number of want to do. And I give a number of want to do. And I give a number of examples in the book of this. But I mean examples in the book of this. But I mean examples in the book of this. But I mean the most the most the most uh obvious is the case of Yakya Sinoir, uh obvious is the case of Yakya Sinoir, uh obvious is the case of Yakya Sinoir, the Hamas leader who is generally the Hamas leader who is generally the Hamas leader who is generally regarded as having orchestrated and and regarded as having orchestrated and and regarded as having orchestrated and and um arranged the 7th of October. He uh we um arranged the 7th of October. He uh we um arranged the 7th of October. He uh we know a fair amount about him because he know a fair amount about him because he know a fair amount about him because he was in prison in Israel in the 2000s for was in prison in Israel in the 2000s for was in prison in Israel in the 2000s for murdering Palestinians in murdering Palestinians in murdering Palestinians in Gaza. And uh he was released in the Gaza. And uh he was released in the Gaza. And uh he was released in the prisoner swap for the he was one of the prisoner swap for the he was one of the prisoner swap for the he was one of the more than 1,000 more than 1,000 more than 1,000 uh Palestinian prisoners inside Israel uh Palestinian prisoners inside Israel uh Palestinian prisoners inside Israel who was released in his in a swap for who was released in his in a swap for who was released in his in a swap for Gilead Shalit, the abducted Israeli Gilead Shalit, the abducted Israeli Gilead Shalit, the abducted Israeli soldier. soldier. soldier. and uh Yaya Sininoa in prison in Israel and uh Yaya Sininoa in prison in Israel and uh Yaya Sininoa in prison in Israel um talked to among others a a dentist um talked to among others a a dentist um talked to among others a a dentist who ended up saving his life because who ended up saving his life because who ended up saving his life because Yaya Sinoir had a brain tumor and uh Yaya Sinoir had a brain tumor and uh Yaya Sinoir had a brain tumor and uh this this dentist identified this and uh this this dentist identified this and uh this this dentist identified this and uh actually sent him to the hospital and actually sent him to the hospital and actually sent him to the hospital and the Israelis famously uh removed the the Israelis famously uh removed the the Israelis famously uh removed the tumor and and and saved Sino's life but tumor and and and saved Sino's life but tumor and and and saved Sino's life but this dentist used to speak to him in in this dentist used to speak to him in in this dentist used to speak to him in in the prison fairly regularly and and was the prison fairly regularly and and was the prison fairly regularly and and was related not least to the New York Times related not least to the New York Times related not least to the New York Times his conversations with Sinoir and his conversations with Sinoir and his conversations with Sinoir and uh Sinoir said in one of those uh Sinoir said in one of those uh Sinoir said in one of those conversations he said you know he said

conversations he said you know he said conversations he said you know he said at the moment you Israel are strong at the moment you Israel are strong at the moment you Israel are strong um but one day you'll be weak and then um but one day you'll be weak and then um but one day you'll be weak and then I'll I'll I'll come and uh that's that's what he did. come and uh that's that's what he did. come and uh that's that's what he did. Is it a hatred of Is it a hatred of Is it a hatred of Israel or is it a hatred of Jews? Is it Israel or is it a hatred of Jews? Is it Israel or is it a hatred of Jews? Is it on the level of nations or the level of on the level of nations or the level of on the level of nations or the level of uh religion? Both. It's both. I mean uh religion? Both. It's both. I mean uh religion? Both. It's both. I mean originates from a religious mindset, but originates from a religious mindset, but originates from a religious mindset, but it's of course political as well. it's of course political as well. it's of course political as well. Um I mean the Hamas charter of course Um I mean the Hamas charter of course Um I mean the Hamas charter of course some people sort of think the Hamas some people sort of think the Hamas some people sort of think the Hamas charter is of no significance and I charter is of no significance and I charter is of no significance and I often notice this slight of hand that often notice this slight of hand that often notice this slight of hand that that that people do again it goes back that that people do again it goes back that that people do again it goes back to what I was saying earlier um forget to what I was saying earlier um forget to what I was saying earlier um forget everything other than the most important everything other than the most important everything other than the most important basic things but the Hamas charter uh basic things but the Hamas charter uh basic things but the Hamas charter uh among other things quotes the hadith among other things quotes the hadith among other things quotes the hadith that you know the end times will not that you know the end times will not that you know the end times will not come until all of the the the the rocks come until all of the the the the rocks come until all of the the the the rocks and the trees shout out oh oh Muslim and the trees shout out oh oh Muslim and the trees shout out oh oh Muslim there's the Jew behind me come and kill there's the Jew behind me come and kill there's the Jew behind me come and kill him. And uh that that is so Hamas is him. And uh that that is so Hamas is him. And uh that that is so Hamas is both obviously anti-Israeli obviously both obviously anti-Israeli obviously both obviously anti-Israeli obviously and anti-Jewish obviously. Um it's it's and anti-Jewish obviously. Um it's it's and anti-Jewish obviously. Um it's it's uh and by the way I mean um one of the uh and by the way I mean um one of the uh and by the way I mean um one of the many painful stories I tell in the book many painful stories I tell in the book many painful stories I tell in the book is of the fact that so many of the is of the fact that so many of the is of the fact that so many of the people in the communities that they people in the communities that they people in the communities that they attacked. It's not as if there'd be a attacked. It's not as if there'd be a attacked. It's not as if there'd be a right community to act and a wrong right community to act and a wrong right community to act and a wrong community to attack, but that many of

community to attack, but that many of community to attack, but that many of the communities they attacked were the communities they attacked were the communities they attacked were communities which deeply deeply dreamed communities which deeply deeply dreamed communities which deeply deeply dreamed of the idea of living in peace with of the idea of living in peace with of the idea of living in peace with their Palestinian neighbors. Uh there's their Palestinian neighbors. Uh there's their Palestinian neighbors. Uh there's a woman who whose name has become a woman who whose name has become a woman who whose name has become relatively famous since certainly famous relatively famous since certainly famous relatively famous since certainly famous inside Israel Silva who was a peace inside Israel Silva who was a peace inside Israel Silva who was a peace activist who spent every weekend um activist who spent every weekend um activist who spent every weekend um driving Gazan children from uh the driving Gazan children from uh the driving Gazan children from uh the border to if if they had very like rare border to if if they had very like rare border to if if they had very like rare medical needs that could not be seen medical needs that could not be seen medical needs that could not be seen attention to within inside Gaza would attention to within inside Gaza would attention to within inside Gaza would drive them to Israeli hospitals. And she drive them to Israeli hospitals. And she drive them to Israeli hospitals. And she spent every weekend doing that. worked spent every weekend doing that. worked spent every weekend doing that. worked for all of the sort of left-wing peace for all of the sort of left-wing peace for all of the sort of left-wing peace neck organizations in Israel. And you neck organizations in Israel. And you neck organizations in Israel. And you for a for a while after the seventh, her for a for a while after the seventh, her for a for a while after the seventh, her neighbors and others thought that uh she neighbors and others thought that uh she neighbors and others thought that uh she had been taken captive into Gaza and had been taken captive into Gaza and had been taken captive into Gaza and actually there was a hostage poster for actually there was a hostage poster for actually there was a hostage poster for her and there were appeals by the her and there were appeals by the her and there were appeals by the various peace nick organizations for various peace nick organizations for various peace nick organizations for Hamz to hand her over. But it turned out Hamz to hand her over. But it turned out Hamz to hand her over. But it turned out she'd been burned alive in her home. And she'd been burned alive in her home. And she'd been burned alive in her home. And this wasn't discovered for quite a long this wasn't discovered for quite a long this wasn't discovered for quite a long time because there was so little DNA time because there was so little DNA time because there was so little DNA left of her that it was very hard to left of her that it was very hard to left of her that it was very hard to identify the remains as being hers. Um, identify the remains as being hers. Um, identify the remains as being hers. Um, so there were there were a lot of just a so there were there were a lot of just a so there were there were a lot of just a lot of people in the Gaza envelope as lot of people in the Gaza envelope as lot of people in the Gaza envelope as it's it's called in Israel in the area it's it's called in Israel in the area it's it's called in Israel in the area around Gaza who who would have been the around Gaza who who would have been the around Gaza who who would have been the people who, you know, wanted to live people who, you know, wanted to live people who, you know, wanted to live peacefully with uh the Gazans someday.

peacefully with uh the Gazans someday. peacefully with uh the Gazans someday. And those there's a certain among the And those there's a certain among the And those there's a certain among the many it's not an irony but just among many it's not an irony but just among many it's not an irony but just among the sort of pains of the day is that is the sort of pains of the day is that is the sort of pains of the day is that is that so so overwhelmingly these these that so so overwhelmingly these these that so so overwhelmingly these these were the people that that Hamas brought were the people that that Hamas brought were the people that that Hamas brought hell to hell to hell to the response to October 7th by Israel. the response to October 7th by Israel. the response to October 7th by Israel. Can you steal me on the case that Israel Can you steal me on the case that Israel Can you steal me on the case that Israel went too far? Well, the case that that went too far? Well, the case that that went too far? Well, the case that that started from very early on that that started from very early on that that started from very early on that that critics of Israel had was the claim that critics of Israel had was the claim that critics of Israel had was the claim that I I think I first heard it on about the I I think I first heard it on about the I I think I first heard it on about the 8th of October before Israel had done 8th of October before Israel had done 8th of October before Israel had done anything in response was the claim that anything in response was the claim that anything in response was the claim that uh Israel must act proportionately in uh Israel must act proportionately in uh Israel must act proportionately in response. And I I have a critique of response. And I I have a critique of response. And I I have a critique of this that I've often expressed which is this that I've often expressed which is this that I've often expressed which is that there is such a thing as that there is such a thing as that there is such a thing as proportionality in warfare. proportionality in warfare. proportionality in warfare. Um, and at the same time, Israel is Um, and at the same time, Israel is Um, and at the same time, Israel is always accused of acting always accused of acting always accused of acting disproportionately. And the disproportionately. And the disproportionately. And the proportionality that the rest or much of proportionality that the rest or much of proportionality that the rest or much of the rest of the world seems to think the rest of the world seems to think the rest of the world seems to think Israel should express in warfare is to Israel should express in warfare is to Israel should express in warfare is to is to have an equal um an equal level of is to have an equal um an equal level of is to have an equal um an equal level of suffering or killing on both sides. I I suffering or killing on both sides. I I suffering or killing on both sides. I I don't think there's any um uh law of war don't think there's any um uh law of war don't think there's any um uh law of war that says that, you know, if you kill that says that, you know, if you kill that says that, you know, if you kill 1,200 people and you kidnap another 250 1,200 people and you kidnap another 250 1,200 people and you kidnap another 250 that as it were, the other side's that as it were, the other side's that as it were, the other side's allowed to do the same back. But that's allowed to do the same back. But that's allowed to do the same back. But that's what a lot of people think. And then what a lot of people think. And then what a lot of people think. And then when they see the death toll escalating

when they see the death toll escalating when they see the death toll escalating on the Gazen side, they say Israel has on the Gazen side, they say Israel has on the Gazen side, they say Israel has acted disproportionately and has acted disproportionately and has acted disproportionately and has overreacted. That one is a is a is is tricky because That one is a is a is is tricky because you know it's it's it's my belief that I you know it's it's it's my belief that I you know it's it's it's my belief that I mean again this is a basic thing but it mean again this is a basic thing but it mean again this is a basic thing but it has to be stated that 9 million citizens has to be stated that 9 million citizens has to be stated that 9 million citizens of Israel if you extrapolate that out to of Israel if you extrapolate that out to of Israel if you extrapolate that out to what the 7th of October would have meant what the 7th of October would have meant what the 7th of October would have meant in American in American in American terms you'd be talking about uh a day on terms you'd be talking about uh a day on terms you'd be talking about uh a day on which if if the attack had happened in which if if the attack had happened in which if if the attack had happened in America where 44,000 Americans were America where 44,000 Americans were America where 44,000 Americans were killed in one day and 10,000 American killed in one day and 10,000 American killed in one day and 10,000 American citizens taken hostage. Nobody can tell me that if such an Nobody can tell me that if such an atrocity atrocity atrocity occurred that America would not do occurred that America would not do occurred that America would not do whatever it needed to destroy the groups whatever it needed to destroy the groups whatever it needed to destroy the groups that had done that and to retrieve the that had done that and to retrieve the that had done that and to retrieve the hostages who've been taken. So just on hostages who've been taken. So just on hostages who've been taken. So just on that point, I agree with you 100% that point, I agree with you 100% that point, I agree with you 100% America would do would hit hard back and America would do would hit hard back and America would do would hit hard back and I think a lot of Americans would feel I think a lot of Americans would feel I think a lot of Americans would feel justified in that. But it's also justified in that. But it's also justified in that. But it's also possible that possible that possible that uh the military-industrial complex and uh the military-industrial complex and uh the military-industrial complex and the politicians would do something like the politicians would do something like the politicians would do something like the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, which the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, which the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, which means extend far means extend far means extend far beyond hitting back and actually do a beyond hitting back and actually do a beyond hitting back and actually do a thing that's destructive to everybody, thing that's destructive to everybody, thing that's destructive to everybody, including America financially and the including America financially and the including America financially and the flourishing of America and the flourishing of America and the flourishing of America and the flourishing of humanity broadly and the flourishing of humanity broadly and the flourishing of humanity broadly and the region and the stability and the war on

region and the stability and the war on region and the stability and the war on terrorism. terrorism. terrorism. uh if that's a real thing. Uh the war in uh if that's a real thing. Uh the war in uh if that's a real thing. Uh the war in Iraq and Afghanistan did not maybe Iraq and Afghanistan did not maybe Iraq and Afghanistan did not maybe succeed in defeating terrorism or even succeed in defeating terrorism or even succeed in defeating terrorism or even making progress. It probably made more making progress. It probably made more making progress. It probably made more terrorists than not. So there's a terrorists than not. So there's a terrorists than not. So there's a justified feeling of hitting back and uh justified feeling of hitting back and uh justified feeling of hitting back and uh going after somebody like Bin Laden in going after somebody like Bin Laden in going after somebody like Bin Laden in the case of 911. And then there's just the case of 911. And then there's just the case of 911. And then there's just the actual implementation. the actual implementation. the actual implementation. Mhm. And it seems like the Mhm. And it seems like the Mhm. And it seems like the implementation can sometimes implementation can sometimes implementation can sometimes um un intended or unintended have um un intended or unintended have um un intended or unintended have consequences that are bordering on war consequences that are bordering on war consequences that are bordering on war crimes if not downright war crimes. Now crimes if not downright war crimes. Now crimes if not downright war crimes. Now this this is a general statement and now this this is a general statement and now this this is a general statement and now we'll look at Israel where things we'll look at Israel where things we'll look at Israel where things are are are small land everything is very compact. small land everything is very compact. small land everything is very compact. There's a lot of complexities that are There's a lot of complexities that are There's a lot of complexities that are well studied that we've talked about well studied that we've talked about well studied that we've talked about extensively. Well, the two stated aims extensively. Well, the two stated aims extensively. Well, the two stated aims of the Israelis after the 7th were uh to of the Israelis after the 7th were uh to of the Israelis after the 7th were uh to get the hostages back and to destroy get the hostages back and to destroy get the hostages back and to destroy Hamas. And many people said that you Hamas. And many people said that you Hamas. And many people said that you could do one, but not could do one, but not could do one, but not both. Um and I actually think both. Um and I actually think both. Um and I actually think they've gone a long way to doing both.

they've gone a long way to doing both. they've gone a long way to doing both. By no means everything. There are still By no means everything. There are still By no means everything. There are still hostages as we're speaking held in Gaza, hostages as we're speaking held in Gaza, hostages as we're speaking held in Gaza, including a young American Um and Hamas including a young American Um and Hamas including a young American Um and Hamas is not completely destroyed. It's very is not completely destroyed. It's very is not completely destroyed. It's very very significantly degraded but it's not very significantly degraded but it's not very significantly degraded but it's not completely destroyed. But those are the completely destroyed. But those are the completely destroyed. But those are the two aims. two aims. two aims. Um I believe that I mean I've Um I believe that I mean I've Um I believe that I mean I've seen as much of the war as any outside seen as much of the war as any outside seen as much of the war as any outside observer. observer. observer. I don't know. There are some exceptions I don't know. There are some exceptions I don't know. There are some exceptions maybe, but and so I think I can say with maybe, but and so I think I can say with maybe, but and so I think I can say with considerable certainty what the Israelis considerable certainty what the Israelis considerable certainty what the Israelis have and haven't have and haven't have and haven't done. Um done. Um done. Um the the oper there were various the the oper there were various the the oper there were various operations at the beginning, various uh operations at the beginning, various uh operations at the beginning, various uh plans which didn't happen like storming plans which didn't happen like storming plans which didn't happen like storming straight in and getting for instance as straight in and getting for instance as straight in and getting for instance as many hostages as possible out of the many hostages as possible out of the many hostages as possible out of the Shifa complex which is called a hospital Shifa complex which is called a hospital Shifa complex which is called a hospital but it's but it's but it's a al also at the very least the Hamas a al also at the very least the Hamas a al also at the very least the Hamas command headquarters and um there was a command headquarters and um there was a command headquarters and um there was a there was a plan to maybe go and uh do there was a plan to maybe go and uh do there was a plan to maybe go and uh do that fast but it was it was avoided that fast but it was it was avoided that fast but it was it was avoided because of the number of deaths on all because of the number of deaths on all because of the number of deaths on all sides that would be likely to happen.

sides that would be likely to happen. sides that would be likely to happen. The Israelis did actually hold back at The Israelis did actually hold back at The Israelis did actually hold back at the beginning. There was a a period of the beginning. There was a a period of the beginning. There was a a period of making sure that when they went into making sure that when they went into making sure that when they went into Gaza, they didn't do Gaza, they didn't do Gaza, they didn't do so in any way so in any way so in any way blind. The Gaza is a very built up area blind. The Gaza is a very built up area blind. The Gaza is a very built up area and populationwise is is is um is and populationwise is is is um is and populationwise is is is um is densely populated. Something by the way densely populated. Something by the way densely populated. Something by the way which the people who who claim which the people who who claim which the people who who claim frivolously that Israel has been frivolously that Israel has been frivolously that Israel has been committing genocide never take account committing genocide never take account committing genocide never take account of which is the fact that the garden of which is the fact that the garden of which is the fact that the garden population has boomed since the Israeli population has boomed since the Israeli population has boomed since the Israeli withdrawal in 2005. It's almost withdrawal in 2005. It's almost withdrawal in 2005. It's almost doubled. Um but yeah it's a densely doubled. Um but yeah it's a densely doubled. Um but yeah it's a densely populated area and it's an incredibly populated area and it's an incredibly populated area and it's an incredibly difficult place for the train of war difficult place for the train of war difficult place for the train of war because of one thing in particular which because of one thing in particular which because of one thing in particular which is that goes back a bit to our is that goes back a bit to our is that goes back a bit to our conversation earlier. This is a much conversation earlier. This is a much conversation earlier. This is a much more extreme example. I mean, Hermes more extreme example. I mean, Hermes more extreme example. I mean, Hermes really don't play by the really don't play by the really don't play by the rules. In fact, they they use the rules rules. In fact, they they use the rules rules. In fact, they they use the rules of war, the laws of war completely to of war, the laws of war completely to of war, the laws of war completely to their own their own their own advantage. You know, it has to be advantage. You know, it has to be advantage. You know, it has to be reiterated, you are not meant to reiterated, you are not meant to reiterated, you are not meant to uh disguise your army as uh disguise your army as uh disguise your army as civilians. You're not meant to use civilians. You're not meant to use civilians. You're not meant to use places of uh care like hospitals as places of uh care like hospitals as places of uh care like hospitals as bases for your military operations.

bases for your military operations. bases for your military operations. You're not meant to use schools and You're not meant to use schools and You're not meant to use schools and places of worship as operating centers places of worship as operating centers places of worship as operating centers of of of war. And Hamas does all of these things war. And Hamas does all of these things war. And Hamas does all of these things and has always done so. And it does so and has always done so. And it does so and has always done so. And it does so with the very obvious reason that for with the very obvious reason that for with the very obvious reason that for them the whole thing is a two for one them the whole thing is a two for one them the whole thing is a two for one offer. you you you get to operate offer. you you you get to operate offer. you you you get to operate everywhere. And if the Israelis operate everywhere. And if the Israelis operate everywhere. And if the Israelis operate anywhere, you claim that this is a war anywhere, you claim that this is a war anywhere, you claim that this is a war crime because how could they attack this crime because how could they attack this crime because how could they attack this group of civilians? These people who are group of civilians? These people who are group of civilians? These people who are dressed as civilians, these people dressed as civilians, these people dressed as civilians, these people merely fighting from a mosque and so on. merely fighting from a mosque and so on. merely fighting from a mosque and so on. And that's why that's And that's why that's And that's why that's why everybody who's been to Gaza, who's why everybody who's been to Gaza, who's why everybody who's been to Gaza, who's seen the fighting, knows the same thing, seen the fighting, knows the same thing, seen the fighting, knows the same thing, which is this is just which is this is just which is this is just incredibly difficult difficult warfare incredibly difficult difficult warfare incredibly difficult difficult warfare of a kind that that American troops have of a kind that that American troops have of a kind that that American troops have seen in the last 20 years in Fallujah seen in the last 20 years in Fallujah seen in the last 20 years in Fallujah and elsewhere. Uh Kurdish and elsewhere. Uh Kurdish and elsewhere. Uh Kurdish uh militia, the Peshmerga, saw when they uh militia, the Peshmerga, saw when they uh militia, the Peshmerga, saw when they were fighting as our frontline troops in were fighting as our frontline troops in were fighting as our frontline troops in the war against ISIS. similar house to the war against ISIS. similar house to the war against ISIS. similar house to house but by no means with the same house but by no means with the same house but by no means with the same entrenched entrenched entrenched uh uh bases. Uh you know again it can't uh uh bases. Uh you know again it can't uh uh bases. Uh you know again it can't be stressed enough that Hamas has used be stressed enough that Hamas has used be stressed enough that Hamas has used the years since the Israeli withdrawal the years since the Israeli withdrawal the years since the Israeli withdrawal from 2005 to build this from 2005 to build this from 2005 to build this vast underground tunnel network.

vast underground tunnel network. vast underground tunnel network. And again it's obvious but it has to be And again it's obvious but it has to be And again it's obvious but it has to be remembered when is and I quote one of remembered when is and I quote one of remembered when is and I quote one of the Hamz leaders in the book saying this the Hamz leaders in the book saying this the Hamz leaders in the book saying this in an interview when they build their in an interview when they build their in an interview when they build their tunnels they do so in order that their tunnels they do so in order that their tunnels they do so in order that their tunnels are used by them Hamas to store tunnels are used by them Hamas to store tunnels are used by them Hamas to store their their their weaponry to secure their weaponry to secure their weaponry to secure their fighters and to hold hostages. fighters and to hold hostages. fighters and to hold hostages. They do not build their underground They do not build their underground They do not build their underground tunnel networks for the safety of guards tunnel networks for the safety of guards tunnel networks for the safety of guards and civilians avoiding aerial and civilians avoiding aerial and civilians avoiding aerial bombardment. bombardment. bombardment. And you know And you know And you know the every difference in the world seems the every difference in the world seems the every difference in the world seems to me to exist between a country which to me to exist between a country which to me to exist between a country which does build uh bomb shelters for its does build uh bomb shelters for its does build uh bomb shelters for its citizens and um a government which citizens and um a government which citizens and um a government which builds bomb shelters for its bombs. builds bomb shelters for its bombs. builds bomb shelters for its bombs. Can you discuss the flow of money here? Can you discuss the flow of money here? Can you discuss the flow of money here? So, how does Hamas how does Hamas the So, how does Hamas how does Hamas the So, how does Hamas how does Hamas the leadership use the money? So, you leadership use the money? So, you leadership use the money? So, you started to talk about the tunnels, but started to talk about the tunnels, but started to talk about the tunnels, but how much corruption is there? Can you how much corruption is there? Can you how much corruption is there? Can you just lay it all out? Uh because I think just lay it all out? Uh because I think just lay it all out? Uh because I think that's an it's an important part of the that's an it's an important part of the that's an it's an important part of the picture here. It's totally corrupt.

picture here. It's totally corrupt. picture here. It's totally corrupt. Every Hermes leader who's uh now dead Every Hermes leader who's uh now dead Every Hermes leader who's uh now dead died a died a died a billionaire with a B with a B. To say billionaire with a B with a B. To say billionaire with a B with a B. To say that that that they used Gaza's resources or the the they used Gaza's resources or the the they used Gaza's resources or the the the resources that came into Gaza for the resources that came into Gaza for the resources that came into Gaza for their own ends is to just vastly their own ends is to just vastly their own ends is to just vastly understate matters. understate matters. understate matters. Um, Hames used everything that came in Um, Hames used everything that came in Um, Hames used everything that came in to build the infrastructure of terror to build the infrastructure of terror to build the infrastructure of terror that allowed them to do the seventh and that allowed them to do the seventh and that allowed them to do the seventh and everything everything everything since. Um, they militarized the whole of since. Um, they militarized the whole of since. Um, they militarized the whole of the Gaza. They um by the estimations of the Gaza. They um by the estimations of the Gaza. They um by the estimations of troops I've been with there, they every troops I've been with there, they every troops I've been with there, they every second to third house had weaponry second to third house had weaponry second to third house had weaponry stashed there, bombs, RPGs, Kashnikovs, stashed there, bombs, RPGs, Kashnikovs, stashed there, bombs, RPGs, Kashnikovs, rockets, tunnel entrances, rockets, tunnel entrances, rockets, tunnel entrances, uh uh uh the network that they just embedded all the network that they just embedded all the network that they just embedded all these years was was total. They they these years was was total. They they these years was was total. They they they they you know, one of the many many they they you know, one of the many many they they you know, one of the many many tragedies of this is that whatever tragedies of this is that whatever tragedies of this is that whatever you're reading of the rights and wrongs you're reading of the rights and wrongs you're reading of the rights and wrongs of the Israeli withdrawal in 2005, it was an opportunity for the Gaza 2005, it was an opportunity for the Gaza to become something else. It could have to become something else. It could have to become something else. It could have become a thriving state. It could have

become a thriving state. It could have become a thriving state. It could have been a thriving Palestinian state. It's been a thriving Palestinian state. It's been a thriving Palestinian state. It's just that just that just that Hamas, like the PLO before Hamas, like the PLO before Hamas, like the PLO before them, decided that they wanted to them, decided that they wanted to them, decided that they wanted to destroy Israel more than they wanted to destroy Israel more than they wanted to destroy Israel more than they wanted to create a Palestinian state. And that is create a Palestinian state. And that is create a Palestinian state. And that is to the great great detriment of the to the great great detriment of the to the great great detriment of the Palestinians of Gaza, to put it at its Palestinians of Gaza, to put it at its Palestinians of Gaza, to put it at its mildest. So just to outline here, mildest. So just to outline here, mildest. So just to outline here, leadership of Hamas are stealing the leadership of Hamas are stealing the leadership of Hamas are stealing the money that gets sent by Qatar, by money that gets sent by Qatar, by money that gets sent by Qatar, by everybody. So they're putting in their everybody. So they're putting in their everybody. So they're putting in their pocket and then the by the American pocket and then the by the American pocket and then the by the American taxpayer, by the European taxpayer as taxpayer, by the European taxpayer as taxpayer, by the European taxpayer as well. Yes. Yeah. Well, yeah, but I mean well. Yes. Yeah. Well, yeah, but I mean well. Yes. Yeah. Well, yeah, but I mean it's not just about the stealing the it's not just about the stealing the it's not just about the stealing the money. It's it's about using the the money. It's it's about using the the money. It's it's about using the the money and the infrastructure to money and the infrastructure to money and the infrastructure to annihilate your neighbor. I mean that's annihilate your neighbor. I mean that's annihilate your neighbor. I mean that's those those two things, but the those those two things, but the those those two things, but the corruption is uh a signal from an corruption is uh a signal from an corruption is uh a signal from an economic perspective, but it's also a economic perspective, but it's also a economic perspective, but it's also a signal of deep moral corruption because signal of deep moral corruption because signal of deep moral corruption because they're screwing over the Palestinian they're screwing over the Palestinian they're screwing over the Palestinian people. Yes. A cynicism. assassinate. people. Yes. A cynicism. assassinate. people. Yes. A cynicism. assassinate. Yeah. Okay. And then with the money they Yeah. Okay. And then with the money they Yeah. Okay. And then with the money they do do do spend on the Palestinian cause, they're spend on the Palestinian cause, they're spend on the Palestinian cause, they're not doing that to uh build up no Gaza.

not doing that to uh build up no Gaza. not doing that to uh build up no Gaza. They're doing it to uh strengthen the They're doing it to uh strengthen the They're doing it to uh strengthen the militaristic capabilities. Yes. Of the militaristic capabilities. Yes. Of the militaristic capabilities. Yes. Of the terrorist organization of Hamas. terrorist organization of Hamas. terrorist organization of Hamas. You You You have maybe you can correct me on this. have maybe you can correct me on this. have maybe you can correct me on this. um has said um has said um has said that the people of Gaza have some that the people of Gaza have some that the people of Gaza have some significant responsibility for the significant responsibility for the significant responsibility for the actions of Hamas because they've elected actions of Hamas because they've elected actions of Hamas because they've elected them. They elected them. The whatifs are them. They elected them. The whatifs are them. They elected them. The whatifs are endless, but very unwise of the George endless, but very unwise of the George endless, but very unwise of the George W. Bush administration to push for W. Bush administration to push for W. Bush administration to push for elections in Gaza elections in Gaza elections in Gaza um after '05. um after '05. um after '05. But Hamas were elected and But Hamas were elected and But Hamas were elected and they then 2007 killed the other they then 2007 killed the other they then 2007 killed the other Palestinian faction that was their main Palestinian faction that was their main Palestinian faction that was their main challenger, Fata. Uh killed them, threw challenger, Fata. Uh killed them, threw challenger, Fata. Uh killed them, threw them off rooftops, dragged their bodies them off rooftops, dragged their bodies them off rooftops, dragged their bodies behind motorbikes through the Gaza and behind motorbikes through the Gaza and behind motorbikes through the Gaza and from that point they had total control. from that point they had total control. from that point they had total control. And you know this is is difficult And you know this is is difficult And you know this is is difficult because because because you you can get into the realm of being you you can get into the realm of being you you can get into the realm of being accused of advocating or in any way accused of advocating or in any way accused of advocating or in any way justifying collective punishment justifying collective punishment justifying collective punishment uh if you talk about this. But it should uh if you talk about this. But it should uh if you talk about this. But it should be borne in mind be borne in mind be borne in mind that you know Hamas had effectively 18 that you know Hamas had effectively 18 that you know Hamas had effectively 18 years to run the years to run the years to run the Gaza and that's that's the time that it Gaza and that's that's the time that it Gaza and that's that's the time that it takes from the birth of a child to the takes from the birth of a child to the takes from the birth of a child to the end of their formal

end of their formal end of their formal education. And in 18 years they could education. And in 18 years they could education. And in 18 years they could have presided over and have presided over and have presided over and produced a generation of young produced a generation of young produced a generation of young gazins who were gazins who were gazins who were productive. Productive for their people, productive. Productive for their people, productive. Productive for their people, for their society, for their neighbors, for their society, for their neighbors, for their society, for their neighbors, for the rest of the world. And they for the rest of the world. And they for the rest of the world. And they didn't. They spent 18 years didn't. They spent 18 years didn't. They spent 18 years indoctrinating the children of Gaza into indoctrinating the children of Gaza into indoctrinating the children of Gaza into a death cult and into a genocidal hatred a death cult and into a genocidal hatred a death cult and into a genocidal hatred which obviously is was most dangerous to which obviously is was most dangerous to which obviously is was most dangerous to the the the Israelis, Israelis, Israelis, but it was obviously disastrous for the but it was obviously disastrous for the but it was obviously disastrous for the people of Gaza. people of Gaza. people of Gaza. And you know there is um there's just if And you know there is um there's just if And you know there is um there's just if you speak to soldiers who were there in you speak to soldiers who were there in you speak to soldiers who were there in 2014 when Hermes started a war again 2014 when Hermes started a war again 2014 when Hermes started a war again um one of a set of rounds of war since um one of a set of rounds of war since um one of a set of rounds of war since 2005. If you speak to the soldiers who 2005. If you speak to the soldiers who 2005. If you speak to the soldiers who were there in 2014 going house to house were there in 2014 going house to house were there in 2014 going house to house and who were also involved in the war and who were also involved in the war and who were also involved in the war since since since 2003 they all say the same thing which 2003 they all say the same thing which 2003 they all say the same thing which is the marked radicalization of the is the marked radicalization of the is the marked radicalization of the Gazin population.

Gazin population. Gazin population. the marked increase in just I mean the the marked increase in just I mean the the marked increase in just I mean the most I mean it's so benile in a way to most I mean it's so benile in a way to most I mean it's so benile in a way to even cite it but you know even cite it but you know even cite it but you know like the numbers of copies of mine camp like the numbers of copies of mine camp like the numbers of copies of mine camp in Arabic in an average Gazen household in Arabic in an average Gazen household in Arabic in an average Gazen household the protocols of the learned elders of the protocols of the learned elders of the protocols of the learned elders of Zion there are so many whatifs and other Zion there are so many whatifs and other Zion there are so many whatifs and other paths that Heramaz could have taken but paths that Heramaz could have taken but paths that Heramaz could have taken but that was the one they took they decided that was the one they took they decided that was the one they took they decided to take the path of using their time in to take the path of using their time in to take the path of using their time in power to build up their infrastructure power to build up their infrastructure power to build up their infrastructure radicalizes population and encouraged radicalizes population and encouraged radicalizes population and encouraged them to believe that they could destroy them to believe that they could destroy them to believe that they could destroy the state of the state of the state of Israel. And then on October the 7th, Israel. And then on October the 7th, Israel. And then on October the 7th, they gave it their best shot. Uh and by they gave it their best shot. Uh and by they gave it their best shot. Uh and by the way, there is no organized the way, there is no organized the way, there is no organized collective punishment of the citizens of collective punishment of the citizens of collective punishment of the citizens of Gaza. Collective punishment would just Gaza. Collective punishment would just Gaza. Collective punishment would just be dropping bombs with no purpose across be dropping bombs with no purpose across be dropping bombs with no purpose across civilian areas, carpet bombing, this civilian areas, carpet bombing, this civilian areas, carpet bombing, this sort of thing. This is simply not what sort of thing. This is simply not what sort of thing. This is simply not what the IIAF and the IDF have done since the the IIAF and the IDF have done since the the IIAF and the IDF have done since the 7th. Um, they have been fighting a 7th. Um, they have been fighting a 7th. Um, they have been fighting a house-to-house war against this house-to-house war against this house-to-house war against this terrorist group. They do do aerial terrorist group. They do do aerial terrorist group. They do do aerial strikes. Gaza is is is very very badly strikes. Gaza is is is very very badly strikes. Gaza is is is very very badly beaten up as a the buildings I mean the beaten up as a the buildings I mean the beaten up as a the buildings I mean the the infrastructure that that existed the infrastructure that that existed the infrastructure that that existed um it's uh there aren't many buildings um it's uh there aren't many buildings um it's uh there aren't many buildings standing but this is not the result of standing but this is not the result of standing but this is not the result of just wild and imprecise bombing by the

just wild and imprecise bombing by the just wild and imprecise bombing by the Israelis. It's been extremely Israelis. It's been extremely Israelis. It's been extremely uh uh uh concerted. it's extremely uh difficult concerted. it's extremely uh difficult concerted. it's extremely uh difficult but when people say well this must be but when people say well this must be but when people say well this must be collective punishment I think that the collective punishment I think that the collective punishment I think that the people who say people who say people who say that simultaneously that's not that simultaneously that's not that simultaneously that's not true and true and true and also you also you also you know there is not a hostage who's come know there is not a hostage who's come know there is not a hostage who's come out who Donald Trump made this President out who Donald Trump made this President out who Donald Trump made this President Trump made his point recently there is Trump made his point recently there is Trump made his point recently there is not a hostage who's come out who I've not a hostage who's come out who I've not a hostage who's come out who I've spoken with spoken with spoken with who found any who found any who found any gazen gazen gazen Palestinian who expressed even the Palestinian who expressed even the Palestinian who expressed even the slightest human kindness to slightest human kindness to slightest human kindness to them. If you if you look at the footage them. If you if you look at the footage them. If you if you look at the footage from the seventh that Hamas recorded from the seventh that Hamas recorded from the seventh that Hamas recorded themselves of them taking young Jewish themselves of them taking young Jewish themselves of them taking young Jewish women into Gaza and so women into Gaza and so women into Gaza and so on, you will notice on, you will notice on, you will notice that the trucks and the motorbikes and that the trucks and the motorbikes and that the trucks and the motorbikes and so on are not stopped by horrified so on are not stopped by horrified so on are not stopped by horrified guards and civilians saying, "Why have guards and civilians saying, "Why have guards and civilians saying, "Why have you got this this Israeli girl who you got this this Israeli girl who you got this this Israeli girl who you've whose tendons you've cut and why you've whose tendons you've cut and why you've whose tendons you've cut and why are you bringing her here?" It's all are you bringing her here?" It's all are you bringing her here?" It's all celebration.

celebration. celebration. It's all It's all It's all celebration. And it's the same with celebration. And it's the same with celebration. And it's the same with there are a couple of cases of hostages there are a couple of cases of hostages there are a couple of cases of hostages who managed to escape from the civilian who managed to escape from the civilian who managed to escape from the civilian houses they were being held in who were houses they were being held in who were houses they were being held in who were immediately returned by the citizens immediately returned by the citizens immediately returned by the citizens they they they met. Yeah, the celebration I do wonder met. Yeah, the celebration I do wonder met. Yeah, the celebration I do wonder what percent of the the population they what percent of the the population they what percent of the the population they represent, but there's something really represent, but there's something really represent, but there's something really dark. There's several ways to explain dark. There's several ways to explain dark. There's several ways to explain the celebration. the celebration. the celebration. It could be that there's a deep It could be that there's a deep It could be that there's a deep indoctrination where you do legitimately indoctrination where you do legitimately indoctrination where you do legitimately hate hate hate Jews. And there also could be a place of Jews. And there also could be a place of Jews. And there also could be a place of just deep just deep just deep desperation. And it's it's a kind of desperation. And it's it's a kind of desperation. And it's it's a kind of relief that you have to convince relief that you have to convince relief that you have to convince yourself that you're um on the side of yourself that you're um on the side of yourself that you're um on the side of fighting for freedom in order to justify to yourself freedom in order to justify to yourself that this is the right way to fight out that this is the right way to fight out that this is the right way to fight out of desperation. of desperation. of desperation. out of extremely harsh conditions out of extremely harsh conditions out of extremely harsh conditions because the way we're kind of speaking because the way we're kind of speaking because the way we're kind of speaking about this with the celebration, it's about this with the celebration, it's about this with the celebration, it's very easy to project a kind of evil on very easy to project a kind of evil on very easy to project a kind of evil on the the the populace that I just am very hesitant to populace that I just am very hesitant to populace that I just am very hesitant to project, especially on the general project, especially on the general project, especially on the general populace. You don't have to project it populace. You don't have to project it populace. You don't have to project it onto them. You can just listen to their onto them. You can just listen to their onto them. You can just listen to their own words.

own words. own words. What? I'm sure you've heard the one of What? I'm sure you've heard the one of What? I'm sure you've heard the one of many audio recordings you hear from the many audio recordings you hear from the many audio recordings you hear from the morning, but I'm sure you've heard the morning, but I'm sure you've heard the morning, but I'm sure you've heard the audio recording of the young man who audio recording of the young man who audio recording of the young man who ends up in one of the communities in the ends up in one of the communities in the ends up in one of the communities in the south of Israel and uh calls home, calls south of Israel and uh calls home, calls south of Israel and uh calls home, calls back home. Have you heard that? Yes, back home. Have you heard that? Yes, back home. Have you heard that? Yes, I've heard it. I quoted in the first I've heard it. I quoted in the first I've heard it. I quoted in the first chapter of the book. He he calls back chapter of the book. He he calls back chapter of the book. He he calls back home and he says uh to his father who home and he says uh to his father who home and he says uh to his father who picks up. It's on WhatsApp. I think he's picks up. It's on WhatsApp. I think he's picks up. It's on WhatsApp. I think he's he's on the phone. He's saying, "Turn on he's on the phone. He's saying, "Turn on he's on the phone. He's saying, "Turn on to WhatsApp because I can show you." He to WhatsApp because I can show you." He to WhatsApp because I can show you." He says, "Um, I've killed 10 Jews with my says, "Um, I've killed 10 Jews with my says, "Um, I've killed 10 Jews with my own hands. Oh, father, your son has own hands. Oh, father, your son has own hands. Oh, father, your son has killed 10 Jews." And his father is is killed 10 Jews." And his father is is killed 10 Jews." And his father is is saying, "Where are you? Where are you?" saying, "Where are you? Where are you?" saying, "Where are you? Where are you?" Go, "I want to show you, Dad. I want to Go, "I want to show you, Dad. I want to Go, "I want to show you, Dad. I want to show you. I've killed Jews with my own show you. I've killed Jews with my own show you. I've killed Jews with my own hands. Your hands. Your hands. Your son put mother on the phone." Mother son put mother on the phone." Mother son put mother on the phone." Mother comes on the phone. The brother comes on comes on the phone. The brother comes on comes on the phone. The brother comes on the phone. Um this is Um this is um one of many um one of many um one of many many stories from the many stories from the many stories from the day that suggest day that suggest day that suggest uh something which I would say is not uh something which I would say is not uh something which I would say is not just indoctrination but yes evil. First just indoctrination but yes evil. First just indoctrination but yes evil. First of all those phone calls are somehow of all those phone calls are somehow of all those phone calls are somehow uniquely horrific. But I've also heard uniquely horrific. But I've also heard uniquely horrific. But I've also heard recordings of phone calls made by recordings of phone calls made by recordings of phone calls made by Ukrainian soldiers to their parents and Ukrainian soldiers to their parents and Ukrainian soldiers to their parents and Russian soldiers to their parents and Russian soldiers to their parents and Russian soldiers to their parents and they have not as intense and not as they have not as intense and not as they have not as intense and not as horrific but they have a similar nature

horrific but they have a similar nature horrific but they have a similar nature to to to them them them which there is an aspect of war where which there is an aspect of war where which there is an aspect of war where you uh dehumanize the other side right you uh dehumanize the other side right you uh dehumanize the other side right sure in order to fight that sure in order to fight that sure in order to fight that war. So we have to remember that that war. So we have to remember that that war. So we have to remember that that element is going to be there in a time element is going to be there in a time element is going to be there in a time of war, in a time of desperation. It of war, in a time of desperation. It of war, in a time of desperation. It would be a strange type of um uh simple would be a strange type of um uh simple would be a strange type of um uh simple sort of I don't know pride in sort of I don't know pride in sort of I don't know pride in war to go into an 80-year-old woman's war to go into an 80-year-old woman's war to go into an 80-year-old woman's house and kill her on her house and kill her on her house and kill her on her floor and then film her dead body and floor and then film her dead body and floor and then film her dead body and her body in its final moments and send her body in its final moments and send her body in its final moments and send it round to all of that woman's friends it round to all of that woman's friends it round to all of that woman's friends on her phone on her Instagram on her phone on her Instagram on her phone on her Instagram account. account. account. Um, it's it's you may have heard Um, it's it's you may have heard Um, it's it's you may have heard different things from me, but I mean I I different things from me, but I mean I I different things from me, but I mean I I would be surprised if there were even would be surprised if there were even would be surprised if there were even the most viciferous of Russian the most viciferous of Russian the most viciferous of Russian soldiers phoning back home to Moscow and soldiers phoning back home to Moscow and soldiers phoning back home to Moscow and saying, "Mom, you won't believe my luck.

saying, "Mom, you won't believe my luck. saying, "Mom, you won't believe my luck. I managed to rape and kill this I managed to rape and kill this I managed to rape and kill this 80-year-old 80-year-old 80-year-old woman." It's that's that's quite woman." It's that's that's quite woman." It's that's that's quite unusual, even in warfare. unusual, even in warfare. unusual, even in warfare. Um and and that's one of the things Um and and that's one of the things Um and and that's one of the things about Hamas and the what I describe as about Hamas and the what I describe as about Hamas and the what I describe as the death cult the death cult the death cult types which makes them different from types which makes them different from types which makes them different from other people. But that's the channeling other people. But that's the channeling other people. But that's the channeling of evil and hatred and anger in the of evil and hatred and anger in the of evil and hatred and anger in the human spirit but that doesn't make that human spirit but that doesn't make that human spirit but that doesn't make that person evil. No, I disagree. person evil. No, I disagree. person evil. No, I disagree. You commit that once. I think that there You commit that once. I think that there You commit that once. I think that there is such a force as evil in the world and is such a force as evil in the world and is such a force as evil in the world and I think it uh it can descend and it can I think it uh it can descend and it can I think it uh it can descend and it can be used and it's very hard to find a be used and it's very hard to find a be used and it's very hard to find a non- theological way to talk about this non- theological way to talk about this non- theological way to talk about this but of everything I've seen um there are but of everything I've seen um there are but of everything I've seen um there are actions that people like Hamas committed actions that people like Hamas committed actions that people like Hamas committed on the 7th that cannot be described as on the 7th that cannot be described as on the 7th that cannot be described as anything other than anything other than anything other than evil. The things that happened at the evil. The things that happened at the evil. The things that happened at the Nova party were especially appalling. I Nova party were especially appalling. I Nova party were especially appalling. I mean, it was all appalling, but it was mean, it was all appalling, but it was mean, it was all appalling, but it was especially appalling because first of especially appalling because first of especially appalling because first of all, it's a sort of party which people all, it's a sort of party which people all, it's a sort of party which people like you and I, or at least you and I like you and I, or at least you and I like you and I, or at least you and I when we were younger, might have been when we were younger, might have been when we were younger, might have been at. And so everyone knows, you know, the at. And so everyone knows, you know, the at. And so everyone knows, you know, the the world of a dance party in all night, the world of a dance party in all night, the world of a dance party in all night, you know, rave in the desert to commune you know, rave in the desert to commune you know, rave in the desert to commune with nature and the universe and to take with nature and the universe and to take with nature and the universe and to take some psychedelics and to, you know,

some psychedelics and to, you know, some psychedelics and to, you know, expand your consciousness and your love expand your consciousness and your love expand your consciousness and your love and all of that sort of thing. and all of that sort of thing. and all of that sort of thing. The the fact that people doing that at 6:30 in the morning then that at 6:30 in the morning then encountered people coming in to the encountered people coming in to the encountered people coming in to the party party party on trucks and military vehicles and on trucks and military vehicles and on trucks and military vehicles and just massacring them and raping them. just massacring them and raping them. just massacring them and raping them. And I mean I I give examples of the And I mean I I give examples of the And I mean I I give examples of the firsthand accounts of people who firsthand accounts of people who firsthand accounts of people who survived, but I mean it's beyond belief survived, but I mean it's beyond belief survived, but I mean it's beyond belief of almost anything else I've covered in of almost anything else I've covered in of almost anything else I've covered in war. And it's because it seems war. And it's because it seems war. And it's because it seems so I mean an armed an army facing so I mean an armed an army facing so I mean an armed an army facing another army is one thing. another army is one thing. another army is one thing. A terrorist group in civilian clothing A terrorist group in civilian clothing A terrorist group in civilian clothing facing an army is another facing an army is another facing an army is another thing. But a terrorist group facing a thing. But a terrorist group facing a thing. But a terrorist group facing a group of young group of young group of young people at a dance people at a dance people at a dance unarmed and doing what they did is is unarmed and doing what they did is is unarmed and doing what they did is is is pretty hard to comprehend unless you is pretty hard to comprehend unless you is pretty hard to comprehend unless you use the lexicon of evil somewhere.

So that So that stated, can you empathize with the stated, can you empathize with the stated, can you empathize with the suffering of uh Palestinians in Gaza suffering of uh Palestinians in Gaza suffering of uh Palestinians in Gaza with the destruction that resulted as a with the destruction that resulted as a with the destruction that resulted as a response? Yes. Um what has happened in response? Yes. Um what has happened in response? Yes. Um what has happened in response is terrible, terrible for the response is terrible, terrible for the response is terrible, terrible for the citizens of Gaza. citizens of Gaza. citizens of Gaza. I was there in um on the first time I was there in um on the first time I was there in um on the first time couple of days early in into the the couple of days early in into the the couple of days early in into the the ground invasion ground invasion ground invasion uh when the citizens of Gaza were coming uh when the citizens of Gaza were coming uh when the citizens of Gaza were coming south. I was in the middle of the strip south. I was in the middle of the strip south. I was in the middle of the strip and the um the humanitarian corridor had and the um the humanitarian corridor had and the um the humanitarian corridor had been set up to try to stop the hostages been set up to try to stop the hostages been set up to try to stop the hostages being taken south deeper into Gaza and being taken south deeper into Gaza and being taken south deeper into Gaza and to try to stop the leadership from to try to stop the leadership from to try to stop the leadership from making it south. It actually it didn't making it south. It actually it didn't making it south. It actually it didn't really work because they just they'd really work because they just they'd really work because they just they'd already got a lot of the hostages south. already got a lot of the hostages south. already got a lot of the hostages south. It was an attempt to keep Hamz there and It was an attempt to keep Hamz there and It was an attempt to keep Hamz there and fight them in the north so as not to be fight them in the north so as not to be fight them in the north so as not to be dragged all the way in. In the end, dragged all the way in. In the end, dragged all the way in. In the end, dragged all the way in anyway. But uh dragged all the way in anyway. But uh dragged all the way in anyway. But uh yes and I mean watching the the citizens yes and I mean watching the the citizens yes and I mean watching the the citizens of Gaza moving through the humanitarian of Gaza moving through the humanitarian of Gaza moving through the humanitarian corridor and you know they everyone was corridor and you know they everyone was corridor and you know they everyone was check being checked for for bombs, check being checked for for bombs, check being checked for for bombs, suicide vests, checked for you know suicide vests, checked for you know suicide vests, checked for you know particularly young men of military age particularly young men of military age particularly young men of military age um and uh you know I mean you look at um and uh you know I mean you look at um and uh you know I mean you look at this tide of human misery and you think this tide of human misery and you think this tide of human misery and you think this is terrible but this is a this is terrible but this is a this is terrible but this is a terrible thing that had been brought terrible thing that had been brought terrible thing that had been brought upon them by the people who've been upon them by the people who've been upon them by the people who've been misgoverning the place that they lived

misgoverning the place that they lived misgoverning the place that they lived in. in. in. And of course on a human level you feel And of course on a human level you feel And of course on a human level you feel terrible that these people are going terrible that these people are going terrible that these people are going through this. At the same time, human through this. At the same time, human through this. At the same time, human empathy for them can coexist empathy for them can coexist empathy for them can coexist beside an unspeakable beside an unspeakable beside an unspeakable anger that they had come to this point anger that they had come to this point anger that they had come to this point because of the the fact that they had because of the the fact that they had because of the the fact that they had elected a terror group to run their elected a terror group to run their elected a terror group to run their territory. And one of the things territory. And one of the things territory. And one of the things obviously is that you know a lot of obviously is that you know a lot of obviously is that you know a lot of people like to say and it's true of people like to say and it's true of people like to say and it's true of course that that you know this didn't course that that you know this didn't course that that you know this didn't all start on October the 7th. Absolutely all start on October the 7th. Absolutely all start on October the 7th. Absolutely true. Uh this particular round, this true. Uh this particular round, this true. Uh this particular round, this particularly intense round of war particularly intense round of war particularly intense round of war started on October the 7th. Without started on October the 7th. Without started on October the 7th. Without doubt, Hamas did not have to attack on doubt, Hamas did not have to attack on doubt, Hamas did not have to attack on October the 7th. It wasn't wasn't like October the 7th. It wasn't wasn't like October the 7th. It wasn't wasn't like they were forced they were forced they were forced to liberate themselves or something as to liberate themselves or something as to liberate themselves or something as some of the defenders of Hamas some of the defenders of Hamas some of the defenders of Hamas claim. Uh but the conflict of course claim. Uh but the conflict of course claim. Uh but the conflict of course goes back a lot earlier. But it you you goes back a lot earlier. But it you you goes back a lot earlier. But it you you will have to always keep on contending will have to always keep on contending will have to always keep on contending with this fact that there is one with this fact that there is one with this fact that there is one central issue to the paradigm of that central issue to the paradigm of that central issue to the paradigm of that conflict. What used to be called the conflict. What used to be called the conflict. What used to be called the Arab Israeli conflict and now has Arab Israeli conflict and now has Arab Israeli conflict and now has become interestingly rebranded the become interestingly rebranded the become interestingly rebranded the Israeli Palestinian conflict. But there Israeli Palestinian conflict. But there Israeli Palestinian conflict. But there is one absolutely essential issue to is one absolutely essential issue to is one absolutely essential issue to this which cannot be forgotten, which this which cannot be forgotten, which this which cannot be forgotten, which is do the

is do the is do the Palestinians want a Palestinians want a Palestinians want a state or do they want to destroy the state or do they want to destroy the state or do they want to destroy the Jewish Jewish Jewish state? And if they want to destroy the state? And if they want to destroy the state? And if they want to destroy the Jewish state, as they've tried many Jewish state, as they've tried many Jewish state, as they've tried many times, it's a disaster for them. It's a times, it's a disaster for them. It's a times, it's a disaster for them. It's a total disaster for them. total disaster for them. total disaster for them. If they want to create their own state, If they want to create their own state, If they want to create their own state, they've already had several very good they've already had several very good they've already had several very good shots at it. One of which is Gaza post shots at it. One of which is Gaza post shots at it. One of which is Gaza post 2005, but they've never shown in their 2005, but they've never shown in their 2005, but they've never shown in their leadership the desire to live with a leadership the desire to live with a leadership the desire to live with a Jewish Jewish Jewish state. And that's a catastrophe for the state. And that's a catastrophe for the state. And that's a catastrophe for the Palestinians. Palestinians. Palestinians. Can you steal me out the case of the Can you steal me out the case of the Can you steal me out the case of the lived experience of Palestinians and pro lived experience of Palestinians and pro lived experience of Palestinians and pro Palestinian voices that describe the Palestinian voices that describe the Palestinian voices that describe the Gaza situation as a occupation? The West Gaza situation as a occupation? The West Gaza situation as a occupation? The West Bank do and uh in the case of Gaza open Bank do and uh in the case of Gaza open Bank do and uh in the case of Gaza open air prison. The to take them in order um air prison. The to take them in order um air prison. The to take them in order um there's nothing about Gaza that was an there's nothing about Gaza that was an there's nothing about Gaza that was an open air prison. They had ability to open air prison. They had ability to open air prison. They had ability to trade. They had the ability to um to trade. They had the ability to um to trade. They had the ability to um to move in and out in increasing numbers.

move in and out in increasing numbers. move in and out in increasing numbers. Egypt wasn't so keen on allowing Egypt wasn't so keen on allowing Egypt wasn't so keen on allowing Palestinians from Gaza into Egypt. Still Palestinians from Gaza into Egypt. Still Palestinians from Gaza into Egypt. Still isn't. But uh at the time the seventh isn't. But uh at the time the seventh isn't. But uh at the time the seventh there was actually an interesting that there was actually an interesting that there was actually an interesting that one of the things the international one of the things the international one of the things the international community was pushing for was for more community was pushing for was for more community was pushing for was for more Palestinians to be coming into Israel Palestinians to be coming into Israel Palestinians to be coming into Israel every day through the crossing and every day through the crossing and every day through the crossing and others to work in Israel because they others to work in Israel because they others to work in Israel because they can make a a better living in Israel can make a a better living in Israel can make a a better living in Israel than they can in Gaza. than they can in Gaza. than they can in Gaza. And uh this the the as it were And uh this the the as it were And uh this the the as it were normalization route was slowly being normalization route was slowly being normalization route was slowly being attempted was being pushed on Israel by attempted was being pushed on Israel by attempted was being pushed on Israel by the international community a little bit the international community a little bit the international community a little bit too fast for Israel's uh comfort but it too fast for Israel's uh comfort but it too fast for Israel's uh comfort but it happened that completely came to an end happened that completely came to an end happened that completely came to an end and that that dream is done gone since and that that dream is done gone since and that that dream is done gone since the 7th of October. Can you clarify the the 7th of October. Can you clarify the the 7th of October. Can you clarify the dream the normalization relation dream the normalization relation dream the normalization relation normalization dream between Gaza and normalization dream between Gaza and normalization dream between Gaza and Israel Israel Israel gone uh there will be yeah no gone uh there will be yeah no gone uh there will be yeah no normalization no not after that and one normalization no not after that and one normalization no not after that and one of the reasons is the number of people of the reasons is the number of people of the reasons is the number of people again who I've spoken with who employed again who I've spoken with who employed again who I've spoken with who employed Palestinians worked with Palestinians Palestinians worked with Palestinians Palestinians worked with Palestinians worked alongside Palestinians encouraged worked alongside Palestinians encouraged worked alongside Palestinians encouraged more Palestinians to be coming from Gaza more Palestinians to be coming from Gaza more Palestinians to be coming from Gaza in order to work in Israel and these in order to work in Israel and these in order to work in Israel and these were their brothers and sisters and so were their brothers and sisters and so were their brothers and sisters and so on and so forth. One of the reasons why on and so forth. One of the reasons why on and so forth. One of the reasons why the massacres of the seventh was so the massacres of the seventh was so the massacres of the seventh was so successful in the kibbut sim the successful in the kibbut sim the successful in the kibbut sim the communities in the south was because of communities in the south was because of communities in the south was because of the number of the terrorists who came in the number of the terrorists who came in the number of the terrorists who came in with detailed houseto-house maps of with detailed houseto-house maps of with detailed houseto-house maps of those those those communities. I I spoke with uh with one

communities. I I spoke with uh with one communities. I I spoke with uh with one man who his community they had a man who his community they had a man who his community they had a security officer chief and uh Hamas came security officer chief and uh Hamas came security officer chief and uh Hamas came in. They knew to go and kill him and his in. They knew to go and kill him and his in. They knew to go and kill him and his family first and then which families it family first and then which families it family first and then which families it was just I've seen the maps myself. They was just I've seen the maps myself. They was just I've seen the maps myself. They were they came in with incredibly were they came in with incredibly were they came in with incredibly um accurate information about these um accurate information about these um accurate information about these communities. How did they have them? communities. How did they have them? communities. How did they have them? because it was given to them by the by because it was given to them by the by because it was given to them by the by the brothers, by the workers, by the the brothers, by the workers, by the the brothers, by the workers, by the people of Gaza who were coming in and people of Gaza who were coming in and people of Gaza who were coming in and out. So there is nobody that will trust out. So there is nobody that will trust out. So there is nobody that will trust that ever again. There's a lot of that ever again. There's a lot of that ever again. There's a lot of Palestinians that have lived and Palestinians that have lived and Palestinians that have lived and flourished inside flourished inside flourished inside Israel. Uh what are they saying? What Israel. Uh what are they saying? What Israel. Uh what are they saying? What are they feeling? And what are the are they feeling? And what are the are they feeling? And what are the Israelis feeling about them? Is there Israelis feeling about them? Is there Israelis feeling about them? Is there still camaraderie to some degree or is still camaraderie to some degree or is still camaraderie to some degree or is it completely destroyed? My observation it completely destroyed? My observation it completely destroyed? My observation at the beginning was that everyone was at the beginning was that everyone was at the beginning was that everyone was extremely extremely extremely wary. Uh I mean you know if if you've wary. Uh I mean you know if if you've wary. Uh I mean you know if if you've worked beside somebody and then found worked beside somebody and then found worked beside somebody and then found out they sold out your out they sold out your out they sold out your family you you will never trust again.

family you you will never trust again. family you you will never trust again. And that in particular in a small And that in particular in a small And that in particular in a small country like Israel the word of that country like Israel the word of that country like Israel the word of that happening goes out very fast. happening goes out very fast. happening goes out very fast. the very beginning there was intense the very beginning there was intense the very beginning there was intense intense fear about that including of the intense fear about that including of the intense fear about that including of the you know 20% or so of the population who you know 20% or so of the population who you know 20% or so of the population who are Arab um are Arab um are Arab um Israelis. I actually think one of the Israelis. I actually think one of the Israelis. I actually think one of the few sort of positive news stories of the few sort of positive news stories of the few sort of positive news stories of the period is that that population within period is that that population within period is that that population within Israel has has by and large held it's Israel has has by and large held it's Israel has has by and large held it's not there hasn't been an inifardada not there hasn't been an inifardada not there hasn't been an inifardada [Music] [Music] [Music] um one of the reasons why there hasn't um one of the reasons why there hasn't um one of the reasons why there hasn't been more activity terrorist activity in been more activity terrorist activity in been more activity terrorist activity in the West Bank and Judea and Samaria is the West Bank and Judea and Samaria is the West Bank and Judea and Samaria is because the Israelis have been very because the Israelis have been very because the Israelis have been very careful along with the Palestinian careful along with the Palestinian careful along with the Palestinian Authority to some extent cooperating to Authority to some extent cooperating to Authority to some extent cooperating to keep that down, but you know there keep that down, but you know there keep that down, but you know there wasn't a a war on a full war on three wasn't a a war on a full war on three wasn't a a war on a full war on three fronts for instance which was at risk of fronts for instance which was at risk of fronts for instance which was at risk of happening. Um so I think that the sort happening. Um so I think that the sort happening. Um so I think that the sort of coexistence within Israel has pretty of coexistence within Israel has pretty of coexistence within Israel has pretty much held. There are some terrible much held. There are some terrible much held. There are some terrible examples far too examples far too examples far too regular but not as regular as it could regular but not as regular as it could regular but not as regular as it could happen of um Muslim Arab Israelis happen of um Muslim Arab Israelis happen of um Muslim Arab Israelis carrying out acts of terror in as it carrying out acts of terror in as it carrying out acts of terror in as it were sympathy with Hamas. I was in the were sympathy with Hamas. I was in the were sympathy with Hamas. I was in the middle of one such attack myself uh uh middle of one such attack myself uh uh middle of one such attack myself uh uh late last year late last year late last year um and in a town called Hideera and

um and in a town called Hideera and um and in a town called Hideera and those things have happened but they it those things have happened but they it those things have happened but they it it's it's not that that particular it's it's not that that particular it's it's not that that particular catastrophe has not occurred. Can we catastrophe has not occurred. Can we catastrophe has not occurred. Can we talk about Benjamin Netanyahu? For a lot talk about Benjamin Netanyahu? For a lot talk about Benjamin Netanyahu? For a lot of people who spoke of evil, they refer of people who spoke of evil, they refer of people who spoke of evil, they refer to him as evil on the spectrum between to him as evil on the spectrum between to him as evil on the spectrum between good and evil as a leader. Where does good and evil as a leader. Where does good and evil as a leader. Where does Netanyahu fall? Well, he's certainly not Netanyahu fall? Well, he's certainly not Netanyahu fall? Well, he's certainly not evil. Interesting if people uh looking evil. Interesting if people uh looking evil. Interesting if people uh looking at this conflict were to be reluctant to at this conflict were to be reluctant to at this conflict were to be reluctant to use the word evil of Hamz and eager to use the word evil of Hamz and eager to use the word evil of Hamz and eager to use it of the Israeli prime minister. It use it of the Israeli prime minister. It use it of the Israeli prime minister. It would be sort of telling, I would say. would be sort of telling, I would say. would be sort of telling, I would say. Can we just actually linger on that Can we just actually linger on that Can we just actually linger on that point? There is a point you've made uh point? There is a point you've made uh point? There is a point you've made uh multiple times which is we're more eager multiple times which is we're more eager multiple times which is we're more eager to to criticize and maybe even uh to to criticize and maybe even uh to to criticize and maybe even uh overexaggerate the criticism of overexaggerate the criticism of overexaggerate the criticism of democratically elected leaders. Yes, democratically elected leaders. Yes, democratically elected leaders. Yes, it's a dark weird other quality of uh it's a dark weird other quality of uh it's a dark weird other quality of uh discourse at parties at for mentioned discourse at parties at for mentioned discourse at parties at for mentioned parties. Isn't it also I mean not be to parties. Isn't it also I mean not be to parties. Isn't it also I mean not be to be flippant for a moment it's a little be flippant for a moment it's a little be flippant for a moment it's a little bit bit bit like who do you show your worst sides to like who do you show your worst sides to like who do you show your worst sides to the people you the people you the people you love you it's like you know my intense love you it's like you know my intense love you it's like you know my intense irritability is something that tends to irritability is something that tends to irritability is something that tends to be felt most by people who are closest be felt most by people who are closest be felt most by people who are closest to me because I I'm if I express it to to me because I I'm if I express it to to me because I I'm if I express it to absolutely everybody I met at a party or absolutely everybody I met at a party or absolutely everybody I met at a party or a social setting it would be it would be a social setting it would be it would be a social setting it would be it would be hard I

hard I hard I there's a tendency to lean heavily on there's a tendency to lean heavily on there's a tendency to lean heavily on the people who are closest to you, the the people who are closest to you, the the people who are closest to you, the people people people who will put up with who will put up with who will put up with it. Um, and something similar happens in it. Um, and something similar happens in it. Um, and something similar happens in international politics. You you pressure international politics. You you pressure international politics. You you pressure the people who will listen. I mean it's the people who will listen. I mean it's the people who will listen. I mean it's it's one of the I mean one of the things it's one of the I mean one of the things it's one of the I mean one of the things you hear a lot in the last years you you hear a lot in the last years you you hear a lot in the last years you know people sort of ignoramuses and the know people sort of ignoramuses and the know people sort of ignoramuses and the governments in places like Britain you governments in places like Britain you governments in places like Britain you know will say we need to put more know will say we need to put more know will say we need to put more pressure on the Israelis to do X and you pressure on the Israelis to do X and you pressure on the Israelis to do X and you go well you know in part that's because go well you know in part that's because go well you know in part that's because they will listen if you go we need to they will listen if you go we need to they will listen if you go we need to put more pressure on the Ayatollah in put more pressure on the Ayatollah in put more pressure on the Ayatollah in Iran to persuade them that Hammas are Iran to persuade them that Hammas are Iran to persuade them that Hammas are really bad and they shouldn't be doing really bad and they shouldn't be doing really bad and they shouldn't be doing this, right? What the hell do you think this, right? What the hell do you think this, right? What the hell do you think they're going to do? They're going to they're going to do? They're going to they're going to do? They're going to listen to you. They're going to give a listen to you. They're going to give a listen to you. They're going to give a damn. You're talking totally different damn. You're talking totally different damn. You're talking totally different worlds. Not just a different language is worlds. Not just a different language is worlds. Not just a different language is a different world. And by the way, that a different world. And by the way, that a different world. And by the way, that happens in Israel. I mentioned it happens in Israel. I mentioned it happens in Israel. I mentioned it earlier, but happens in Israel. When the earlier, but happens in Israel. When the earlier, but happens in Israel. When the hostage families forum came about, uh I hostage families forum came about, uh I hostage families forum came about, uh I spent a lot of time there, a lot got to spent a lot of time there, a lot got to spent a lot of time there, a lot got to know a lot of the families and um know a lot of the families and um know a lot of the families and um they're remarkable. But one of the they're remarkable. But one of the they're remarkable. But one of the things you did notice from them as well things you did notice from them as well things you did notice from them as well was that a lot of was that a lot of was that a lot of them they protest outside Netanyahu's them they protest outside Netanyahu's them they protest outside Netanyahu's house. They clack and horns make sure Y house. They clack and horns make sure Y house. They clack and horns make sure Y doesn't can never sleep. They uh will doesn't can never sleep. They uh will doesn't can never sleep. They uh will you know put up great big posters by his you know put up great big posters by his you know put up great big posters by his house of him with bloodied hands and and

house of him with bloodied hands and and house of him with bloodied hands and and so on. so on. so on. And I have si, you know, I think as much And I have si, you know, I think as much And I have si, you know, I think as much sympathy as you can for these families. sympathy as you can for these families. sympathy as you can for these families. The plight of knowing that your child is The plight of knowing that your child is The plight of knowing that your child is sitting in a tunnel in Gaza for a year, sitting in a tunnel in Gaza for a year, sitting in a tunnel in Gaza for a year, a day, an hour is a day, an hour is a day, an hour is intolerable. But there's a reason why intolerable. But there's a reason why intolerable. But there's a reason why the the the families protested families protested families protested Netanyahu, and that's because Netanyahu, and that's because Netanyahu, and that's because Sinoir didn't care. Sinoir didn't care. Sinoir didn't care. That wouldn't work if you That wouldn't work if you That wouldn't work if you said are you, you know, understand my said are you, you know, understand my said are you, you know, understand my plight. I'm a Jewish mother and my plight. I'm a Jewish mother and my plight. I'm a Jewish mother and my daughter is thing. You think Sinoir and daughter is thing. You think Sinoir and daughter is thing. You think Sinoir and the heads of Hamas the heads of Hamas the heads of Hamas care? You think the leaders in Qatar who care? You think the leaders in Qatar who care? You think the leaders in Qatar who host them host them host them care? The Qatari Amir's mother when care? The Qatari Amir's mother when care? The Qatari Amir's mother when Sinoir was killed praised Sinoir was killed praised Sinoir was killed praised Sinoir. You couldn't talk that language Sinoir. You couldn't talk that language Sinoir. You couldn't talk that language to these people. But you can talk that to these people. But you can talk that to these people. But you can talk that language to the elected prime minister language to the elected prime minister language to the elected prime minister of Israel because that first of all he's of Israel because that first of all he's of Israel because that first of all he's somebody who might listen to your somebody who might listen to your somebody who might listen to your pressure could be pressured and secondly pressure could be pressured and secondly pressure could be pressured and secondly is simply the only person you can is simply the only person you can is simply the only person you can pressure. There's no one else. Hamas pressure. There's no one else. Hamas pressure. There's no one else. Hamas doesn't care. Hezbollah doesn't care.

doesn't care. Hezbollah doesn't care. doesn't care. Hezbollah doesn't care. The Iranian revolutionary government The Iranian revolutionary government The Iranian revolutionary government doesn't care. Yeah. So let's just sort doesn't care. Yeah. So let's just sort doesn't care. Yeah. So let's just sort of say once again the uh the obvious of say once again the uh the obvious of say once again the uh the obvious thing that uh while it is possible to thing that uh while it is possible to thing that uh while it is possible to discuss discuss discuss uh Hamas uh soldiers as freedom uh Hamas uh soldiers as freedom uh Hamas uh soldiers as freedom fighters, I'm not one of the folks that fighters, I'm not one of the folks that fighters, I'm not one of the folks that can take that perspective. It's a tough can take that perspective. It's a tough can take that perspective. It's a tough one to take. I don't see how you can one to take. I don't see how you can one to take. I don't see how you can call them freedom fighters. So this goes call them freedom fighters. So this goes call them freedom fighters. So this goes to the man from the land of peace and to the man from the land of peace and to the man from the land of peace and the man from the land of war. There is a the man from the land of war. There is a the man from the land of war. There is a lived experience of what it means to lived experience of what it means to lived experience of what it means to grow up in Gaza. And if you fully load grow up in Gaza. And if you fully load grow up in Gaza. And if you fully load that into your brain in a in a real way, that into your brain in a in a real way, that into your brain in a in a real way, not in not using the words of good and not in not using the words of good and not in not using the words of good and evil, but in a in a very deep human evil, but in a in a very deep human evil, but in a in a very deep human sense. From that place, from that place sense. From that place, from that place sense. From that place, from that place of desperation, when your home and your of desperation, when your home and your of desperation, when your home and your family is destroyed, doesn't matter why, family is destroyed, doesn't matter why, family is destroyed, doesn't matter why, doesn't matter if there's evil all doesn't matter if there's evil all doesn't matter if there's evil all around you that caused it. Doesn't around you that caused it. Doesn't around you that caused it. Doesn't matter. The the facts are the facts. And matter. The the facts are the facts. And matter. The the facts are the facts. And from that from that from that place, somebody who's fighting for you place, somebody who's fighting for you place, somebody who's fighting for you can feel like a freedom fighter. I think can feel like a freedom fighter. I think can feel like a freedom fighter. I think it should be called out that yes, it can it should be called out that yes, it can it should be called out that yes, it can feel that way from the lived experience, feel that way from the lived experience, feel that way from the lived experience, but Hamas is very clearly since we're but Hamas is very clearly since we're but Hamas is very clearly since we're talking about Netanyahu, Hamas is talking about Netanyahu, Hamas is talking about Netanyahu, Hamas is evil. Okay. Now, you can still in that evil. Okay. Now, you can still in that evil. Okay. Now, you can still in that context discuss the degree to which context discuss the degree to which context discuss the degree to which Netanyahu is the right leader for this Netanyahu is the right leader for this Netanyahu is the right leader for this moment and whether

moment and whether moment and whether he goes too far, whether he's too he goes too far, whether he's too he goes too far, whether he's too politically selfish in the decisions he politically selfish in the decisions he politically selfish in the decisions he makes, whether he's too much a makes, whether he's too much a makes, whether he's too much a wararmonger, whether he's utilizing the wararmonger, whether he's utilizing the wararmonger, whether he's utilizing the war war war uh for his own political gains and is uh uh for his own political gains and is uh uh for his own political gains and is uh not caring about the death of civilians not caring about the death of civilians not caring about the death of civilians in Gaza, for example, but more caring in Gaza, for example, but more caring in Gaza, for example, but more caring about his own political uh maintaining about his own political uh maintaining about his own political uh maintaining power. That's a perspective that I could power. That's a perspective that I could power. That's a perspective that I could steal, man. That's a perspective worth steal, man. That's a perspective worth steal, man. That's a perspective worth discussing. And that's a perspective discussing. And that's a perspective discussing. And that's a perspective many in Israel hold when they criticize many in Israel hold when they criticize many in Israel hold when they criticize Netanyahu. He's increasingly less and Netanyahu. He's increasingly less and Netanyahu. He's increasingly less and less popular. That's wrong. Polls last less popular. That's wrong. Polls last less popular. That's wrong. Polls last month when he was in Washington, he month when he was in Washington, he month when he was in Washington, he showed him at an all-time high. You showed him at an all-time high. You showed him at an all-time high. You know, but you were saying I I make my know, but you were saying I I make my know, but you were saying I I make my own poll and according to my poll, um own poll and according to my poll, um own poll and according to my poll, um I'm the greatest. I'm the nicest and the I'm the greatest. I'm the nicest and the I'm the greatest. I'm the nicest and the coolest person in the world. coolest person in the world. coolest person in the world. 100% of people agree. So, I didn't mean 100% of people agree. So, I didn't mean 100% of people agree. So, I didn't mean to laugh that much. Yeah, you laughed a to laugh that much. Yeah, you laughed a to laugh that much. Yeah, you laughed a little too much. It's more than the little too much. It's more than the little too much. It's more than the joke. Yeah, but you were saying I mean joke. Yeah, but you were saying I mean joke. Yeah, but you were saying I mean the Yeah. Okay. Let's steal man the the Yeah. Okay. Let's steal man the the Yeah. Okay. Let's steal man the criticism of Netanyahu. Can you and then criticism of Netanyahu. Can you and then criticism of Netanyahu. Can you and then steel man the case for him that he's the steel man the case for him that he's the steel man the case for him that he's the right leader actually at this moment.

right leader actually at this moment. right leader actually at this moment. the the the most devastating thing that the the the most devastating thing that the the the most devastating thing that anyone could come up against Netanyahu anyone could come up against Netanyahu anyone could come up against Netanyahu is is uh that the seventh happened on is is uh that the seventh happened on is is uh that the seventh happened on his watch his watch his watch um after the Yam Kapoor war in 1973 gold um after the Yam Kapoor war in 1973 gold um after the Yam Kapoor war in 1973 gold mayor who was a very distinguished prime mayor who was a very distinguished prime mayor who was a very distinguished prime minister of Israel and a remarkable minister of Israel and a remarkable minister of Israel and a remarkable woman but she effectively took the the woman but she effectively took the the woman but she effectively took the the political hit for the Yamapour invasion political hit for the Yamapour invasion political hit for the Yamapour invasion um by Israel's Arab neighbors happening um by Israel's Arab neighbors happening um by Israel's Arab neighbors happening on her watch And um and I would have on her watch And um and I would have on her watch And um and I would have thought that most critics, fair-minded thought that most critics, fair-minded thought that most critics, fair-minded critics of Netanyahu inside Isra without critics of Netanyahu inside Isra without critics of Netanyahu inside Isra without would always hold that against would always hold that against would always hold that against him. him. him. Um the Um the Um the uh I suppose that the one of the uh I suppose that the one of the uh I suppose that the one of the criticisms you hear a lot as well is criticisms you hear a lot as well is criticisms you hear a lot as well is this thing of Israel being divided in this thing of Israel being divided in this thing of Israel being divided in the year before the 7th because of the the year before the 7th because of the the year before the 7th because of the judicial reforms. Um I think there's a judicial reforms. Um I think there's a judicial reforms. Um I think there's a strong case for judicial reforms in strong case for judicial reforms in strong case for judicial reforms in Israel, but um it's a sort of niche Israel, but um it's a sort of niche Israel, but um it's a sort of niche Israeli governance issue which we don't Israeli governance issue which we don't Israeli governance issue which we don't have to get into. The point is is that have to get into. The point is is that have to get into. The point is is that Netanyahu and his government were Netanyahu and his government were Netanyahu and his government were pushing these reforms through judicial pushing these reforms through judicial pushing these reforms through judicial reforms and uh it was very divisive and reforms and uh it was very divisive and reforms and uh it was very divisive and on the streets of Tel Aviv and other on the streets of Tel Aviv and other on the streets of Tel Aviv and other cities every weekend there were protests cities every weekend there were protests cities every weekend there were protests and the uh police were tired because and the uh police were tired because and the uh police were tired because they'd spent week after week on overtime they'd spent week after week on overtime they'd spent week after week on overtime policing these protests which often policing these protests which often policing these protests which often turned rockous not to say violent or

turned rockous not to say violent or turned rockous not to say violent or sometimes violent. And uh you could say sometimes violent. And uh you could say sometimes violent. And uh you could say well if you see that something is well if you see that something is well if you see that something is dividing your country this much mightn't dividing your country this much mightn't dividing your country this much mightn't you stop. There is a claim by some you stop. There is a claim by some you stop. There is a claim by some people that one one of the things that people that one one of the things that people that one one of the things that prompted the seventh was that Hamas and prompted the seventh was that Hamas and prompted the seventh was that Hamas and its backers in Qatar and Iran saw the its backers in Qatar and Iran saw the its backers in Qatar and Iran saw the division in Israeli society saw the division in Israeli society saw the division in Israeli society saw the Israeli population you know a Israeli population you know a Israeli population you know a significant chunk of it every week on significant chunk of it every week on significant chunk of it every week on the streets shutting down highways the streets shutting down highways the streets shutting down highways shutting down services and so on and shutting down services and so on and shutting down services and so on and thought good now's the time. In other thought good now's the time. In other thought good now's the time. In other words, what I quoted Sinoir as saying words, what I quoted Sinoir as saying words, what I quoted Sinoir as saying earlier when he was in um in prison in earlier when he was in um in prison in earlier when he was in um in prison in Israel was, you know, this thing, one Israel was, you know, this thing, one Israel was, you know, this thing, one day you'll be weak and then I'll day you'll be weak and then I'll day you'll be weak and then I'll strike. Maybe that is one of the things strike. Maybe that is one of the things strike. Maybe that is one of the things that that that Sinoir thought. Israel was very weak. It Sinoir thought. Israel was very weak. It Sinoir thought. Israel was very weak. It had been divided and therefore the time had been divided and therefore the time had been divided and therefore the time to strike. There's an argument against to strike. There's an argument against to strike. There's an argument against that which is that this the seventh was that which is that this the seventh was that which is that this the seventh was in preparation and being planned before in preparation and being planned before in preparation and being planned before the judicial reform process in Israel the judicial reform process in Israel the judicial reform process in Israel began. So you can look at it several began. So you can look at it several began. So you can look at it several ways, but you could use that. You could ways, but you could use that. You could ways, but you could use that. You could say, "Look, this is, you know, if you say, "Look, this is, you know, if you say, "Look, this is, you know, if you your your your nation was divided, don't your your your nation was divided, don't your your your nation was divided, don't push through anymore on that." There's push through anymore on that." There's push through anymore on that." There's there's lots of things like that. You there's lots of things like that. You there's lots of things like that. You could say that that Netanyahu was one of could say that that Netanyahu was one of could say that that Netanyahu was one of the people responsible for the the people responsible for the the people responsible for the conception. You could uh there were conception. You could uh there were conception. You could uh there were critics of his including critics who critics of his including critics who critics of his including critics who were in the war cabinet who thought that were in the war cabinet who thought that were in the war cabinet who thought that he was too focused on on uh Hamas and he was too focused on on uh Hamas and he was too focused on on uh Hamas and not focused enough on Hezbollah. Other not focused enough on Hezbollah. Other not focused enough on Hezbollah. Other people think he was too focused on people think he was too focused on people think he was too focused on Hezbollah and not enough on

Hezbollah and not enough on Hezbollah and not enough on Hamas. Um so I there's them and many Hamas. Um so I there's them and many Hamas. Um so I there's them and many other criticisms that people make of other criticisms that people make of other criticisms that people make of him. I would say I've interviewed I him. I would say I've interviewed I him. I would say I've interviewed I think every political leader in Israel think every political leader in Israel think every political leader in Israel from right to left pretty much and um I from right to left pretty much and um I from right to left pretty much and um I have to say I don't think there's any of have to say I don't think there's any of have to say I don't think there's any of them that wouldn't have responded them that wouldn't have responded them that wouldn't have responded similarly to the 7th of October to the similarly to the 7th of October to the similarly to the 7th of October to the way he has can we okay so that's inside way he has can we okay so that's inside way he has can we okay so that's inside Israel outside of Israel outside of Israel outside of Israel you know uh despite what he said Israel you know uh despite what he said Israel you know uh despite what he said uh he is one of the most hated people in uh he is one of the most hated people in uh he is one of the most hated people in the world just the raw quantity relative the world just the raw quantity relative the world just the raw quantity relative he's by a lot of people, but there's a he's by a lot of people, but there's a he's by a lot of people, but there's a lot of people lot of people lot of people that, you know, there's a lot of that, you know, there's a lot of that, you know, there's a lot of psychological effects that might explain psychological effects that might explain psychological effects that might explain that. I mean, it's sort of strange to to that. I mean, it's sort of strange to to that. I mean, it's sort of strange to to to if if if there is a widespread global to if if if there is a widespread global to if if if there is a widespread global loathing of the prime minister of a loathing of the prime minister of a loathing of the prime minister of a country of 8 to 9 million people. Yeah. country of 8 to 9 million people. Yeah. country of 8 to 9 million people. Yeah. That that might mean something more than That that might mean something more than That that might mean something more than uh a hatred of the the military actions uh a hatred of the the military actions uh a hatred of the the military actions and the policies of the one person.

and the policies of the one person. and the policies of the one person. Yeah. I mean, you know, there's a Yeah. I mean, you know, there's a Yeah. I mean, you know, there's a there's an awful lot of people to hate there's an awful lot of people to hate there's an awful lot of people to hate in the world. There's a lot of wars in in the world. There's a lot of wars in in the world. There's a lot of wars in the world. the world. the world. It's it's always of interest to me and It's it's always of interest to me and It's it's always of interest to me and obviously some of the one things I go obviously some of the one things I go obviously some of the one things I go into on democracies and death cults is into on democracies and death cults is into on democracies and death cults is this question of like why is this so this question of like why is this so this question of like why is this so galvanizing for so many people and I galvanizing for so many people and I galvanizing for so many people and I think that is a very very interesting think that is a very very interesting think that is a very very interesting question like question like question like why by the way let me do a quick why by the way let me do a quick why by the way let me do a quick addendum to that you can notice addendum to that you can notice addendum to that you can notice something else like that when people something else like that when people something else like that when people talk about the Republican failures in talk about the Republican failures in talk about the Republican failures in foreign policy in the last 30 years or foreign policy in the last 30 years or foreign policy in the last 30 years or So it's very interesting. There's a So it's very interesting. There's a So it's very interesting. There's a certain type of person who will certain type of person who will certain type of person who will immediately mention Paul Wolfwitz. Yeah. Um and they will say, Wolfwitz. Yeah. Um and they will say, well, you know, Wolitz, you go, you mean well, you know, Wolitz, you go, you mean well, you know, Wolitz, you go, you mean deputy under secretary of defense under deputy under secretary of defense under deputy under secretary of defense under George W. George W. George W. Bush. You think Bush. You think Bush. You think he guided he guided he guided everything? Why would that be? Other everything? Why would that be? Other everything? Why would that be? Other than the fact that his name, as Mark than the fact that his name, as Mark than the fact that his name, as Mark Stein once said, starts with a nasty Stein once said, starts with a nasty Stein once said, starts with a nasty animal and ends Jewish.

I mean, that's a good one. So, I do and I mean, that's a good one. So, I do and I do so I do think that the I do so I do think that the I do so I do think that the the there are very deep things at play. the there are very deep things at play. the there are very deep things at play. It's a good line, you know, the the the It's a good line, you know, the the the It's a good line, you know, the the the there are very deep things at play. there are very deep things at play. there are very deep things at play. Netanyahu irrespective of anything he Netanyahu irrespective of anything he Netanyahu irrespective of anything he does for a lot of people is a kind of does for a lot of people is a kind of does for a lot of people is a kind of devil. And you have to say, well, why is devil. And you have to say, well, why is devil. And you have to say, well, why is that? Now, of course, some people will that? Now, of course, some people will that? Now, of course, some people will say, well, that's because he uh his say, well, that's because he uh his say, well, that's because he uh his terrible hawkishness and his actions and terrible hawkishness and his actions and terrible hawkishness and his actions and so on and so forth. so on and so forth. so on and so forth. The case for Netanyahu is that he sees The case for Netanyahu is that he sees The case for Netanyahu is that he sees it as his historic purpose to defend the it as his historic purpose to defend the it as his historic purpose to defend the only homeland of the Jewish people and only homeland of the Jewish people and only homeland of the Jewish people and that that's his life's that that's his life's that that's his life's mission. mission. mission. And on that basis, I think he's been by And on that basis, I think he's been by And on that basis, I think he's been by any measure historic any measure historic any measure historic leader. He leader. He leader. He has warned the world about the threat has warned the world about the threat has warned the world about the threat from the Mullers in Tehran. He warned from the Mullers in Tehran. He warned from the Mullers in Tehran. He warned about Iranian revolutionary expansionism about Iranian revolutionary expansionism about Iranian revolutionary expansionism across the region across Iraq, Lebanon, across the region across Iraq, Lebanon, across the region across Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, Syria, Syria, Yemen. And after the 7th, he has held Yemen. And after the 7th, he has held Yemen. And after the 7th, he has held together a very very difficult set of together a very very difficult set of together a very very difficult set of challenges to keep um international challenges to keep um international challenges to keep um international pressure at a tolerable level pressure at a tolerable level pressure at a tolerable level to do all sorts of things, but most to do all sorts of things, but most to do all sorts of things, but most importantly to oversee the two war aims

importantly to oversee the two war aims importantly to oversee the two war aims that he set out at the beginning. I that he set out at the beginning. I that he set out at the beginning. I thought, let me just express this. I thought, let me just express this. I thought, let me just express this. I thought like a lot of people when I thought like a lot of people when I thought like a lot of people when I heard about the heard about the heard about the hostages, my immediate instinct was hostages, my immediate instinct was hostages, my immediate instinct was they're all dead. They're all going to they're all dead. They're all going to they're all dead. They're all going to be dead. We'll never see them be dead. We'll never see them be dead. We'll never see them again. And that was the attitude of a again. And that was the attitude of a again. And that was the attitude of a lot of lot of lot of Israelis. But although there are still Israelis. But although there are still Israelis. But although there are still hostages being held, and as I've always hostages being held, and as I've always hostages being held, and as I've always said, the war could end tomorrow if they said, the war could end tomorrow if they said, the war could end tomorrow if they were handed back. were handed back. were handed back. um or at least the beginning of the end um or at least the beginning of the end um or at least the beginning of the end of the war could begin tomorrow if they of the war could begin tomorrow if they of the war could begin tomorrow if they were handed back. Uh nevertheless, were handed back. Uh nevertheless, were handed back. Uh nevertheless, because of the actions of not just because of the actions of not just because of the actions of not just Netanyahu, but the Israeli government, um most of the hostages have been um most of the hostages have been returned. Did not expect this to returned. Did not expect this to returned. Did not expect this to happen. And hemaz has not been happen. And hemaz has not been happen. And hemaz has not been completely destroyed, but it has been completely destroyed, but it has been completely destroyed, but it has been very very significantly degraded. And very very significantly degraded. And very very significantly degraded. And you end up in the definition of what a you end up in the definition of what a you end up in the definition of what a total destruction of Hemaz would look total destruction of Hemaz would look total destruction of Hemaz would look like.

like. like. But But But they are not anywhere near the they are not anywhere near the they are not anywhere near the capability they capability they capability they were in November of were in November of were in November of 2023. Their leadership has almost all 2023. Their leadership has almost all 2023. Their leadership has almost all been killed. been killed. been killed. uh the second tier of leadership almost uh the second tier of leadership almost uh the second tier of leadership almost all all all gone and um this is a just response to gone and um this is a just response to gone and um this is a just response to what Hamas what Hamas what Hamas did the moment Netanyahu's reputation in did the moment Netanyahu's reputation in did the moment Netanyahu's reputation in Israel was at a low early on because of Israel was at a low early on because of Israel was at a low early on because of what had what had what had happened but and there's no doubt and as happened but and there's no doubt and as happened but and there's no doubt and as I I say in the final chapter of the book I I say in the final chapter of the book I I say in the final chapter of the book I mean there's general Slim had this I mean there's general Slim had this I mean there's general Slim had this phrase uh you know from defeat into phrase uh you know from defeat into phrase uh you know from defeat into victory. Israel isn't at victory yet in victory. Israel isn't at victory yet in victory. Israel isn't at victory yet in this conflict. But uh when in September this conflict. But uh when in September this conflict. But uh when in September last year there were a set of last year there were a set of last year there were a set of operational successes so operational successes so operational successes so extraordinary that I mean it was just extraordinary that I mean it was just extraordinary that I mean it was just like every day's news was there was one like every day's news was there was one like every day's news was there was one day I remember when after the um after day I remember when after the um after day I remember when after the um after the Assad regime fell when um the the Assad regime fell when um the the Assad regime fell when um the Israeli air force took out the entirety Israeli air force took out the entirety Israeli air force took out the entirety of the Syrian air force uh in a day of the Syrian air force uh in a day of the Syrian air force uh in a day because they didn't want it falling into because they didn't want it falling into because they didn't want it falling into the hands of the new jihadist the hands of the new jihadist the hands of the new jihadist administration in Syria. It was story administration in Syria. It was story administration in Syria. It was story number four on the BBC news number four on the BBC news number four on the BBC news website. Um the leadership of Hezbollah website. Um the leadership of Hezbollah website. Um the leadership of Hezbollah gone gone. The the the second and third

gone gone. The the the second and third gone gone. The the the second and third tiers of tiers of tiers of Hezbollah gone or Hezbollah gone or Hezbollah gone or wounded. Iran's wounded. Iran's wounded. Iran's Rolls-Royce Rolls-Royce Rolls-Royce destroyed. Um these are very very destroyed. Um these are very very destroyed. Um these are very very significant military significant military significant military achievements achievements achievements and are in my mind a just response to and are in my mind a just response to and are in my mind a just response to the attempts by Hezbollah Hamas and the attempts by Hezbollah Hamas and the attempts by Hezbollah Hamas and other Iranian proxies to destroy the other Iranian proxies to destroy the other Iranian proxies to destroy the Jewish Jewish Jewish state. Um would another Israeli leader state. Um would another Israeli leader state. Um would another Israeli leader have been able to have been able to have been able to hold hold hold firm as Netanyahu firm as Netanyahu firm as Netanyahu has? I don't know. But I do know that has? I don't know. But I do know that has? I don't know. But I do know that any of them would have done something any of them would have done something any of them would have done something similar or would have tried to do similar or would have tried to do similar or would have tried to do something similar because there's no something similar because there's no something similar because there's no country on earth, no democracy on earth country on earth, no democracy on earth country on earth, no democracy on earth which could possibly not respond to such which could possibly not respond to such which could possibly not respond to such an an an atrocity to the point the underlying atrocity to the point the underlying atrocity to the point the underlying point you point you point you made of made of made of why do so many people want to call him why do so many people want to call him why do so many people want to call him evil? And so the implication is it's not evil? And so the implication is it's not evil? And so the implication is it's not just a hatred of Israel. There's an just a hatred of Israel. There's an just a hatred of Israel. There's an ocean of hatred for the Jews. Yes.

ocean of hatred for the Jews. Yes. ocean of hatred for the Jews. Yes. Why is there so much hatred for Jews in Why is there so much hatred for Jews in Why is there so much hatred for Jews in the world? I would say there's one the world? I would say there's one the world? I would say there's one reason in particular. It's a stupid and reason in particular. It's a stupid and reason in particular. It's a stupid and gullible person's easy answer. Why is why do certain things answer. Why is why do certain things happen in the world? happen in the world? happen in the world? What is what is our explanation of What is what is our explanation of What is what is our explanation of chance or unfairness chance or unfairness chance or unfairness or any number of or any number of or any number of things? Easiest easiest stupidest things? Easiest easiest stupidest things? Easiest easiest stupidest person's explanation is there's a small person's explanation is there's a small person's explanation is there's a small group of people doing it. Let's not say group of people doing it. Let's not say group of people doing it. Let's not say stupidest because there's something in stupidest because there's something in stupidest because there's something in the human mind that craves a nice clean the human mind that craves a nice clean the human mind that craves a nice clean theory of everything, right? That theory of everything, right? That theory of everything, right? That explains all the pro. It's not just explains all the pro. It's not just explains all the pro. It's not just stupid. Let me rephrase lowest grade, stupid. Let me rephrase lowest grade, stupid. Let me rephrase lowest grade, right? Cuz I lowest I have that I have right? Cuz I lowest I have that I have right? Cuz I lowest I have that I have that desire too to simplify everything that desire too to simplify everything that desire too to simplify everything like be a bit anti-Semitic. What? like be a bit anti-Semitic. What? like be a bit anti-Semitic. What? Uh we've all Uh we've all Uh we've all we've all been bit anti-semitic here and we've all been bit anti-semitic here and we've all been bit anti-semitic here and there and just get a few vodkas. I mean there and just get a few vodkas. I mean there and just get a few vodkas. I mean no uh to find I mean maybe as a no uh to find I mean maybe as a no uh to find I mean maybe as a mathematician I mean it's like to find a mathematician I mean it's like to find a mathematician I mean it's like to find a simple explanation for everything, simple explanation for everything, simple explanation for everything, right? Actually it's that's nice for right? Actually it's that's nice for right? Actually it's that's nice for every historians do this. Absolutely. I every historians do this. Absolutely. I every historians do this. Absolutely. I agree. analyzing why the Roman Empire agree. analyzing why the Roman Empire agree. analyzing why the Roman Empire collapsed. It's so nice to have one, collapsed. It's so nice to have one, collapsed. It's so nice to have one, especially if it's a counterintuitive especially if it's a counterintuitive especially if it's a counterintuitive explanation. It's one of the favorite explanation. It's one of the favorite explanation. It's one of the favorite go-tos, right? Is an explanation for all go-tos, right? Is an explanation for all go-tos, right? Is an explanation for all the problems in the world. It's the the problems in the world. It's the the problems in the world. It's the lowest resolution analysis imaginable.

lowest resolution analysis imaginable. lowest resolution analysis imaginable. Why is there traffic? Why did my wife Why is there traffic? Why did my wife Why is there traffic? Why did my wife leave me? Why did my wife cheating on leave me? Why did my wife cheating on leave me? Why did my wife cheating on me? Why did I lose my job? Why did I not me? Why did I lose my job? Why did I not me? Why did I lose my job? Why did I not get the job? Because So, even on the get the job? Because So, even on the get the job? Because So, even on the personal level, oh, especially on the personal level, oh, especially on the personal level, oh, especially on the personal level, why did I not get personal level, why did I not get personal level, why did I not get everything? Somebody must have held me everything? Somebody must have held me everything? Somebody must have held me back. Yeah. And it's just that hatred of back. Yeah. And it's just that hatred of back. Yeah. And it's just that hatred of Jews has been such a popular go-to Jews has been such a popular go-to Jews has been such a popular go-to throughout history. You just always throughout history. You just always throughout history. You just always return back to the hits, I guess. And I return back to the hits, I guess. And I return back to the hits, I guess. And I What is it special about the Jews as a What is it special about the Jews as a What is it special about the Jews as a group that people love to hate? Is it group that people love to hate? Is it group that people love to hate? Is it just cuz it's small number of people? I just cuz it's small number of people? I just cuz it's small number of people? I think several things successful. Well, think several things successful. Well, think several things successful. Well, one is small and um one is small and um one is small and um um without by any means saying this is a um without by any means saying this is a um without by any means saying this is a general rule, but um uh general rule, but um uh general rule, but um uh disproportionately highly accomplished disproportionately highly accomplished disproportionately highly accomplished uh in certain fields at certain uh in certain fields at certain uh in certain fields at certain times. Um uh prominent is a word I would times. Um uh prominent is a word I would times. Um uh prominent is a word I would use. Prominent slightly beyond their use. Prominent slightly beyond their use. Prominent slightly beyond their numbers in certain places. Um it's not a numbers in certain places. Um it's not a numbers in certain places. Um it's not a full explanation. I mean um you know all full explanation. I mean um you know all full explanation. I mean um you know all sorts of historic reasons why Jews were sorts of historic reasons why Jews were sorts of historic reasons why Jews were involved in banking. Um, but then there involved in banking. Um, but then there involved in banking. Um, but then there are lots of historic reasons why the are lots of historic reasons why the are lots of historic reasons why the Scottish people, my own, were involved Scottish people, my own, were involved Scottish people, my own, were involved in banking. And to this day, you don't in banking. And to this day, you don't in banking. And to this day, you don't find many people who blame all find many people who blame all find many people who blame all international finance problems on the international finance problems on the international finance problems on the Scots. Um, so there are just like easy Scots. Um, so there are just like easy Scots. Um, so there are just like easy grooves for people to fall into, it grooves for people to fall into, it grooves for people to fall into, it seems to me. We should also mention, you seems to me. We should also mention, you seems to me. We should also mention, you know, banking for some reason. Money is know, banking for some reason. Money is know, banking for some reason. Money is a thing that people go to, but um Jews a thing that people go to, but um Jews a thing that people go to, but um Jews have been disproportionately successful have been disproportionately successful have been disproportionately successful in the sciences and uh engineering,

in the sciences and uh engineering, in the sciences and uh engineering, mathematics, yes, in the arts and so on. mathematics, yes, in the arts and so on. mathematics, yes, in the arts and so on. A sensible person would try to work out A sensible person would try to work out A sensible person would try to work out why that is and and see what is why that is and and see what is why that is and and see what is replicable. replicable. replicable. Uh a um Uh a um Uh a um uh I don't want to use the word stupid uh I don't want to use the word stupid uh I don't want to use the word stupid again. Now, a different type of person, again. Now, a different type of person, again. Now, a different type of person, I'm triggered already. A different type I'm triggered already. A different type I'm triggered already. A different type of person would look at that and say, of person would look at that and say, of person would look at that and say, "That must mean they took something from "That must mean they took something from "That must mean they took something from me. me. me. And uh that's you know the the the most And uh that's you know the the the most And uh that's you know the the the most zero sum game there is. I I it's an zero sum game there is. I I it's an zero sum game there is. I I it's an endlessly fascinating subject because it endlessly fascinating subject because it endlessly fascinating subject because it seems to me that anti-semitism is almost seems to me that anti-semitism is almost seems to me that anti-semitism is almost certainly a sort of ineradicable certainly a sort of ineradicable certainly a sort of ineradicable um temptation of the um temptation of the um temptation of the human spirit at its ugliest and human spirit at its ugliest and human spirit at its ugliest and cheapest. Um cheapest. Um cheapest. Um but but it it because it's back in our but but it it because it's back in our but but it it because it's back in our day, it bears some analysis day, it bears some analysis day, it bears some analysis again. Um and I would say two things again. Um and I would say two things again. Um and I would say two things about it. What one is about it. What one is about it. What one is um as I and others have said many times um as I and others have said many times um as I and others have said many times in the past, one of the fascinating in the past, one of the fascinating in the past, one of the fascinating things about anti-semitism is that it it things about anti-semitism is that it it things about anti-semitism is that it it it it can cover everything at once. So it it can cover everything at once. So it it can cover everything at once. So the Jews get hated for being rich and the Jews get hated for being rich and the Jews get hated for being rich and for being poor.

for being poor. for being poor. both for being the Rothschilds and for both for being the Rothschilds and for both for being the Rothschilds and for being Eastern European Jews escaping the being Eastern European Jews escaping the being Eastern European Jews escaping the pograms. They can be hated for being pograms. They can be hated for being pograms. They can be hated for being religious and for being anti-religious religious and for being anti-religious religious and for being anti-religious and producing Marxism for and producing Marxism for and producing Marxism for instance, hated for religiosity and instance, hated for religiosity and instance, hated for religiosity and secularism. secularism. secularism. Uh they can be Uh they can be Uh they can be hated for most recently not having a hated for most recently not having a hated for most recently not having a state and therefore being ruthless state and therefore being ruthless state and therefore being ruthless cosmopolitans and also hated for having cosmopolitans and also hated for having cosmopolitans and also hated for having a a a state. And that makes it something very state. And that makes it something very state. And that makes it something very unusual actually in the history of human unusual actually in the history of human unusual actually in the history of human bigotry and bigotry and bigotry and um you know bias and um you know bias and um you know bias and ugliness. But the real thing is one of ugliness. But the real thing is one of ugliness. But the real thing is one of my great heroes Vasley Gman says at the my great heroes Vasley Gman says at the my great heroes Vasley Gman says at the center of life and fate almost center of life and fate almost center of life and fate almost everything that is worth saying about everything that is worth saying about everything that is worth saying about anti-semitism and it's Gman's anti-semitism and it's Gman's anti-semitism and it's Gman's genius that he could say in three to genius that he could say in three to genius that he could say in three to four pages what most people couldn't say four pages what most people couldn't say four pages what most people couldn't say in an entire life even after life of in an entire life even after life of in an entire life even after life of study but there's this passage in the in study but there's this passage in the in study but there's this passage in the in life and fate that I quote in my book life and fate that I quote in my book life and fate that I quote in my book which is just bowled me over when I read which is just bowled me over when I read which is just bowled me over when I read it some years ago it some years ago it some years ago when he says, you know, the interesting when he says, you know, the interesting when he says, you know, the interesting thing about anti-semitism, he says you thing about anti-semitism, he says you thing about anti-semitism, he says you can meet it everywhere in the um in the can meet it everywhere in the um in the can meet it everywhere in the um in the academy of sciences and in the games academy of sciences and in the games academy of sciences and in the games that children play in the yard. But that children play in the yard. But that children play in the yard. But Gman's great insight is he says

Gman's great insight is he says Gman's great insight is he says everywhere it tells you not about the everywhere it tells you not about the everywhere it tells you not about the Jews but about the person making Jews but about the person making Jews but about the person making the claim. And the most important gift the claim. And the most important gift the claim. And the most important gift he gives in his analysis is when he says he gives in his analysis is when he says he gives in his analysis is when he says describes it as a mirror to the person describes it as a mirror to the person describes it as a mirror to the person who is making the who is making the who is making the claims culminating in this phrase I've claims culminating in this phrase I've claims culminating in this phrase I've been trying to make popular which is he been trying to make popular which is he been trying to make popular which is he said he says tell me what you accuse the said he says tell me what you accuse the said he says tell me what you accuse the Jews of I'll tell you what you're guilty Jews of I'll tell you what you're guilty Jews of I'll tell you what you're guilty of. It's a searingly brilliant insight. of. It's a searingly brilliant insight. of. It's a searingly brilliant insight. Um the Um the Um the uh the the Iranian revolutionary uh the the Iranian revolutionary uh the the Iranian revolutionary government accuses Israel of being a government accuses Israel of being a government accuses Israel of being a colonial power. The Iranian revolutionary power. The Iranian revolutionary government has been colonizing the government has been colonizing the government has been colonizing the Middle East throughout our Middle East throughout our Middle East throughout our lifetimes. The Turkish government lifetimes. The Turkish government lifetimes. The Turkish government accuses uh uh uh the Jewish state of accuses uh uh uh the Jewish state of accuses uh uh uh the Jewish state of being uh guilty of occupation. being uh guilty of occupation. being uh guilty of occupation. Do you know northern Cypress? The Turks Do you know northern Cypress? The Turks Do you know northern Cypress? The Turks have been have been have been occupying half of Cyprus since the occupying half of Cyprus since the occupying half of Cyprus since the 1970s. Cypress is an EU member state and 1970s. Cypress is an EU member state and 1970s. Cypress is an EU member state and Turkey is in Turkey is in Turkey is in NATO. So you can do this on and on. the NATO. So you can do this on and on. the NATO. So you can do this on and on. the people who accuse the Jewish state, like people who accuse the Jewish state, like people who accuse the Jewish state, like the people who accuse Jews of something the people who accuse Jews of something the people who accuse Jews of something almost without fail is the thing they're almost without fail is the thing they're almost without fail is the thing they're guilty guilty guilty of. Look at um the supporters of Hamas

of. Look at um the supporters of Hamas of. Look at um the supporters of Hamas and Hamas. One of the things they say is and Hamas. One of the things they say is and Hamas. One of the things they say is that Israel is guilty of indiscriminate killing. killing. Hamz, hello. Hamz, hello. Hamz, hello. What were you doing on the 7th? You see, What were you doing on the 7th? You see, What were you doing on the 7th? You see, there are these crazy guys online who there are these crazy guys online who there are these crazy guys online who claim repeatedly claim that for some claim repeatedly claim that for some claim repeatedly claim that for some reason Israeli soldiers will rape reason Israeli soldiers will rape reason Israeli soldiers will rape Palestinians when they meet them, Palestinians when they meet them, Palestinians when they meet them, whether in a prison or on the whether in a prison or on the whether in a prison or on the battlefield or in a hospital. It's just battlefield or in a hospital. It's just battlefield or in a hospital. It's just it erupts occasionally. These these it erupts occasionally. These these it erupts occasionally. These these people go around and saying, "Oh my god, people go around and saying, "Oh my god, people go around and saying, "Oh my god, the IDF are the IDF are the IDF are rapists." Excuse rapists." Excuse rapists." Excuse me, you me, you me, you You're the You're the You're the ones who spent the years after 2016 ones who spent the years after 2016 ones who spent the years after 2016 saying, "Believe all women." Then from saying, "Believe all women." Then from saying, "Believe all women." Then from the 7th of October said, "Believe all the 7th of October said, "Believe all the 7th of October said, "Believe all women except for Jewish women who say women except for Jewish women who say women except for Jewish women who say they've been raped or seen their friends they've been raped or seen their friends they've been raped or seen their friends raped." And then you say, "Aha, the Jews raped." And then you say, "Aha, the Jews raped." And then you say, "Aha, the Jews are rapists." You've been carrying water are rapists." You've been carrying water are rapists." You've been carrying water for rapists and then go and accuse the for rapists and then go and accuse the for rapists and then go and accuse the Jews of rape. I mean, it just works.

Jews of rape. I mean, it just works. Jews of rape. I mean, it just works. Every way you do it, it works. Every way you do it, it works. Every way you do it, it works. I do think the thing of psychological I do think the thing of psychological I do think the thing of psychological projection in the case of Israel is is projection in the case of Israel is is projection in the case of Israel is is is wild. I mean, it is wild. By the way, is wild. I mean, it is wild. By the way, is wild. I mean, it is wild. By the way, there's an interesting thing on this there's an interesting thing on this there's an interesting thing on this that I try to get into in the book, that I try to get into in the book, that I try to get into in the book, which is this thing of why did so much which is this thing of why did so much which is this thing of why did so much of the world respond the way it did. I of the world respond the way it did. I of the world respond the way it did. I mean, we're sitting in New York. There mean, we're sitting in New York. There mean, we're sitting in New York. There was not was not was not one protest against Hamas in New York one protest against Hamas in New York one protest against Hamas in New York after the 7th of October. The Believe after the 7th of October. The Believe after the 7th of October. The Believe All Women crowd didn't come out against All Women crowd didn't come out against All Women crowd didn't come out against Hamaz's rapes. The um Black Lives Matter Hamaz's rapes. The um Black Lives Matter Hamaz's rapes. The um Black Lives Matter movement did not turn their attention to movement did not turn their attention to movement did not turn their attention to the killing of Israeli children or the killing of Israeli children or the killing of Israeli children or anything. Nobody did it. Nobody did anything. Nobody did it. Nobody did anything. Nobody did it. Nobody did it. The one thing that did it. The one thing that did it. The one thing that did happen very prominently was that people happen very prominently was that people happen very prominently was that people came out to attack the people who' been came out to attack the people who' been came out to attack the people who' been attacked. And as I say in the opening of attacked. And as I say in the opening of attacked. And as I say in the opening of the book, I saw that myself down the the book, I saw that myself down the the book, I saw that myself down the road from here in Time Square on October road from here in Time Square on October road from here in Time Square on October the 8th. October the freaking 8th, the the 8th. October the freaking 8th, the the 8th. October the freaking 8th, the protests are in Times Square against protests are in Times Square against protests are in Times Square against Israel, justifying the attacks that were Israel, justifying the attacks that were Israel, justifying the attacks that were still going still going still going on. And this is this is something that on. And this is this is something that on. And this is this is something that deserves deep self-examination on behalf deserves deep self-examination on behalf deserves deep self-examination on behalf of people in the West who who've seen of people in the West who who've seen of people in the West who who've seen this movement overwhelm parts of our this movement overwhelm parts of our this movement overwhelm parts of our society. I mean, degraded parts, but society. I mean, degraded parts, but society. I mean, degraded parts, but parts bits of the universities and so parts bits of the universities and so parts bits of the universities and so on.

on. on. And I think there's an explanation for And I think there's an explanation for And I think there's an explanation for it, by the way, which again goes back to it, by the way, which again goes back to it, by the way, which again goes back to that issue of projection. When you and I that issue of projection. When you and I that issue of projection. When you and I last talked on camera, um we were last talked on camera, um we were last talked on camera, um we were talking about my last book, The War on talking about my last book, The War on talking about my last book, The War on the West. And I remember saying to you the West. And I remember saying to you the West. And I remember saying to you there that um one of the things I was there that um one of the things I was there that um one of the things I was talking about in that book was the talking about in that book was the talking about in that book was the deeply deeply deeply deeply wildly biased, unfair and deeply wildly biased, unfair and deeply wildly biased, unfair and inaccurate estimation of the western inaccurate estimation of the western inaccurate estimation of the western past whereby you know America's original past whereby you know America's original past whereby you know America's original sin had to be identified and the sin had to be identified and the sin had to be identified and the original sin is slavery. So America has original sin is slavery. So America has original sin is slavery. So America has an original sin. Does Ghana have an an original sin. Does Ghana have an an original sin. Does Ghana have an original sin? No one knows. No one original sin? No one knows. No one original sin? No one knows. No one really would think polite to point one really would think polite to point one really would think polite to point one out. Um, and you know, you go on and on out. Um, and you know, you go on and on out. Um, and you know, you go on and on with these these things that I with these these things that I with these these things that I identified in the war in the west, these identified in the war in the west, these identified in the war in the west, these these these sins of the west. And they these these sins of the west. And they these these sins of the west. And they have in recent years been reduced to the have in recent years been reduced to the have in recent years been reduced to the claim that countries like the one we're claim that countries like the one we're claim that countries like the one we're sitting in are guilty of sitting in are guilty of sitting in are guilty of what?

what? what? Colonialism. Settler colonialism, white Colonialism. Settler colonialism, white Colonialism. Settler colonialism, white supremacy, slavery. supremacy, slavery. supremacy, slavery. uh uh uh genocide and a couple of others you can genocide and a couple of others you can genocide and a couple of others you can throw in. throw in. throw in. Probably one of the things I remember Probably one of the things I remember Probably one of the things I remember saying to you when we spoke about that saying to you when we spoke about that saying to you when we spoke about that was the the one of the deep problems of was the the one of the deep problems of was the the one of the deep problems of setting up that system of thought, setting up that system of thought, setting up that system of thought, pseudo thought, non-thought would be pseudo thought, non-thought would be pseudo thought, non-thought would be thought, is that there's nothing you can thought, is that there's nothing you can thought, is that there's nothing you can do about it. Even if it was true, do about it. Even if it was true, do about it. Even if it was true, there's nothing you can do about it. there's nothing you can do about it. there's nothing you can do about it. um if it turned out that your ancestors um if it turned out that your ancestors um if it turned out that your ancestors in the 18th century once owned a slave, in the 18th century once owned a slave, in the 18th century once owned a slave, what are you going to do? There's no what are you going to do? There's no what are you going to do? There's no mechanism to forgive or be forgiven mechanism to forgive or be forgiven mechanism to forgive or be forgiven because you didn't do it and there's no because you didn't do it and there's no because you didn't do it and there's no one alive who could accept the one alive who could accept the one alive who could accept the apology. And I remember setting it up apology. And I remember setting it up apology. And I remember setting it up there in the war in the West. set up there in the war in the West. set up there in the war in the West. set up like this this very like this this very like this this very very very very risky risky risky dangerous unforgivable unforgiving thing dangerous unforgivable unforgiving thing dangerous unforgivable unforgiving thing that had been set up about our that had been set up about our that had been set up about our societies. But I would say that since societies. But I would say that since societies. But I would say that since October the October the October the 7th, there has been an answer for a 7th, there has been an answer for a 7th, there has been an answer for a certain type of person, which certain type of person, which certain type of person, which is I am from a society where I have been is I am from a society where I have been is I am from a society where I have been told I am guilty of settler colonialism, told I am guilty of settler colonialism, told I am guilty of settler colonialism, white supremacy, uh, uh, genocide, white supremacy, uh, uh, genocide, white supremacy, uh, uh, genocide, ethnic cleansing, and more. I've been ethnic cleansing, and more. I've been ethnic cleansing, and more. I've been told all of these things. I have been

told all of these things. I have been told all of these things. I have been put in put in put in an ungetoutable of situation of an ungetoutable of situation of an ungetoutable of situation of moral burden that can never be relieved moral burden that can never be relieved moral burden that can never be relieved because I can't ask anyone's forgiveness because I can't ask anyone's forgiveness because I can't ask anyone's forgiveness and nobody can forgive and nobody can forgive and nobody can forgive me. But me. But me. But ah here's a ah here's a ah here's a country which I can accuse of all of country which I can accuse of all of country which I can accuse of all of these things in the here and now. these things in the here and now. these things in the here and now. load my energies, my guilts, my load my energies, my guilts, my load my energies, my guilts, my burdens onto and what's more I might be burdens onto and what's more I might be burdens onto and what's more I might be able to end it and by doing able to end it and by doing able to end it and by doing so would relieve myself and in other so would relieve myself and in other so would relieve myself and in other words to like just to I quote I tweak words to like just to I quote I tweak words to like just to I quote I tweak Grossman with the people Grossman with the people Grossman with the people in America and elsewhere who've fallen in America and elsewhere who've fallen in America and elsewhere who've fallen into this trap. I tweak him by into this trap. I tweak him by into this trap. I tweak him by saying, "On this occasion, tell me what saying, "On this occasion, tell me what saying, "On this occasion, tell me what you accuse the Jews of and I'll tell you you accuse the Jews of and I'll tell you you accuse the Jews of and I'll tell you what you've been told you're guilty what you've been told you're guilty what you've been told you're guilty of." Yeah, it's an interesting kind of of." Yeah, it's an interesting kind of of." Yeah, it's an interesting kind of projection. Uh just to observe some of projection. Uh just to observe some of projection. Uh just to observe some of the the the uh sociological phenomena here on top of uh sociological phenomena here on top of uh sociological phenomena here on top of all this, it does seem that hatred of all this, it does seem that hatred of all this, it does seem that hatred of Jews gets a lot of engagement online.

Jews gets a lot of engagement online. Jews gets a lot of engagement online. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Is this so I watch it like a curiosity Is this so I watch it like a curiosity Is this so I watch it like a curiosity like I'm an alien observing Earth. Uh is like I'm an alien observing Earth. Uh is like I'm an alien observing Earth. Uh is this dangerous to you or is it just a this dangerous to you or is it just a this dangerous to you or is it just a bunch of trolls and grifters, you know, bunch of trolls and grifters, you know, bunch of trolls and grifters, you know, let's say cosplaying as Nazis? It's just let's say cosplaying as Nazis? It's just let's say cosplaying as Nazis? It's just could be both fun to trigger the libs. could be both fun to trigger the libs. could be both fun to trigger the libs. It could be all of those things. I think It could be all of those things. I think It could be all of those things. I think it is and a lot more. it is and a lot more. it is and a lot more. Um, I mean, Um, I mean, Um, I mean, taboos, you know, taboos can be fun to taboos, you know, taboos can be fun to taboos, you know, taboos can be fun to break, I suppose. And I suppose there break, I suppose. And I suppose there break, I suppose. And I suppose there are some people are some people are some people online who have grown up knowing that online who have grown up knowing that online who have grown up knowing that you know since the Holocaust you know since the Holocaust you know since the Holocaust anti-semitism was taboo and they've run anti-semitism was taboo and they've run anti-semitism was taboo and they've run out of goes back to what we were saying out of goes back to what we were saying out of goes back to what we were saying earlier a bit you know the they sort of earlier a bit you know the they sort of earlier a bit you know the they sort of run out of they've got bored of that you run out of they've got bored of that you run out of they've got bored of that you know holocaust schmolicourse they'd say know holocaust schmolicourse they'd say know holocaust schmolicourse they'd say you know I got I heard enough about you know I got I heard enough about you know I got I heard enough about that and maybe those people have gone that and maybe those people have gone that and maybe those people have gone off in a off in a off in a direction as a result. But I don't think direction as a result. But I don't think direction as a result. But I don't think that's the main I think that's like a that's the main I think that's like a that's the main I think that's like a detail compared to the real thing. The detail compared to the real thing. The detail compared to the real thing. The real thing is that anti-semitism is back real thing is that anti-semitism is back real thing is that anti-semitism is back and uh there is a certain type of person and uh there is a certain type of person and uh there is a certain type of person who's loving it. Is it really back? So I who's loving it. Is it really back? So I who's loving it. Is it really back? So I I watch Well, it never goes away. It's I watch Well, it never goes away. It's I watch Well, it never goes away. It's just that it's just that it's it's just that it's just that it's it's just that it's just that it's it's it's since the seventh I think that it's it's since the seventh I think that it's it's since the seventh I think that it's had a great resurgence. This isn't to had a great resurgence. This isn't to had a great resurgence. This isn't to say and still man that doesn't mean that

say and still man that doesn't mean that say and still man that doesn't mean that any criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic. any criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic. any criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic. No, it doesn't. But as I have often No, it doesn't. But as I have often No, it doesn't. But as I have often said, if you don't ever express any said, if you don't ever express any said, if you don't ever express any interest in the murder of Muslims in interest in the murder of Muslims in interest in the murder of Muslims in Syria, not any interest in uh genocide Syria, not any interest in uh genocide Syria, not any interest in uh genocide in in in Sudan, killing of hundreds of thousands Sudan, killing of hundreds of thousands Sudan, killing of hundreds of thousands of people in Yemen, but on the 8th of of people in Yemen, but on the 8th of of people in Yemen, but on the 8th of October, you're on the street with a October, you're on the street with a October, you're on the street with a plard attacking Israel. I'm sorry, plard attacking Israel. I'm sorry, plard attacking Israel. I'm sorry, you're an anti-semite for sure. You may you're an anti-semite for sure. You may you're an anti-semite for sure. You may not know you are, but that's what's not know you are, but that's what's not know you are, but that's what's motivating you. It gets a lot of motivating you. It gets a lot of motivating you. It gets a lot of engagement. I watch it. It does. I watch engagement. I watch it. It does. I watch engagement. I watch it. It does. I watch it. But I mean, it's one of several it. But I mean, it's one of several it. But I mean, it's one of several things you can always see get huge things you can always see get huge things you can always see get huge engagement. I It's like if you if you engagement. I It's like if you if you engagement. I It's like if you if you say that there's like a massive say that there's like a massive say that there's like a massive pedophile ring run by prominent pedophile ring run by prominent pedophile ring run by prominent politicians, it might be to total politicians, it might be to total politicians, it might be to total horseshit. Likely be total horseshit, horseshit. Likely be total horseshit, horseshit. Likely be total horseshit, but it'll also get a hell of a lot of but it'll also get a hell of a lot of but it'll also get a hell of a lot of engagement. Yeah. But that's still so engagement. Yeah. But that's still so engagement. Yeah. But that's still so the pedophile ring like Epstein Island, the pedophile ring like Epstein Island, the pedophile ring like Epstein Island, that kind of stuff. Which is very that kind of stuff. Which is very that kind of stuff. Which is very interesting. It's like great. All right, interesting. It's like great. All right, interesting. It's like great. All right, cool. Let's let's get behind that cool. Let's let's get behind that cool. Let's let's get behind that conspiracy.

conspiracy. conspiracy. Uh but the Jews thing, the hatred of Uh but the Jews thing, the hatred of Uh but the Jews thing, the hatred of Jews is still that's the greatest hits Jews is still that's the greatest hits Jews is still that's the greatest hits still. It is. And I mean you see it with still. It is. And I mean you see it with still. It is. And I mean you see it with I mean some of the people who've made I mean some of the people who've made I mean some of the people who've made minor celebrities of minor celebrities of minor celebrities of themselves with a sort of madeup version themselves with a sort of madeup version themselves with a sort of madeup version of history with a smattering of this and of history with a smattering of this and of history with a smattering of this and a little bit of that and then the just a little bit of that and then the just a little bit of that and then the just asking questions and you know I'm not asking questions and you know I'm not asking questions and you know I'm not saying but and all there are certain you saying but and all there are certain you saying but and all there are certain you know rhetorical sites of hand that have know rhetorical sites of hand that have know rhetorical sites of hand that have have helped this along but as I said have helped this along but as I said have helped this along but as I said earlier it's just a the lowest grade earlier it's just a the lowest grade earlier it's just a the lowest grade explanation of a certain type of mind explanation of a certain type of mind explanation of a certain type of mind looking for a pattern and looking for looking for a pattern and looking for looking for a pattern and looking for meaning. And I mean I can give you just meaning. And I mean I can give you just meaning. And I mean I can give you just one quick example of why that in the one quick example of why that in the one quick example of why that in the case of Israel is so case of Israel is so case of Israel is so extraordinary is the number of otherwise extraordinary is the number of otherwise extraordinary is the number of otherwise semi-intelligent people who will tell semi-intelligent people who will tell semi-intelligent people who will tell you that the problem is you that the problem is you that the problem is simply that the Israelis need to give simply that the Israelis need to give simply that the Israelis need to give the Palestinians another the Palestinians another the Palestinians another state and that if they do it will solve state and that if they do it will solve state and that if they do it will solve the problems. of the region and the the problems. of the region and the the problems. of the region and the wider wider wider world world world and irrespective of the fact that the and irrespective of the fact that the and irrespective of the fact that the Parisian has been given to several Parisian has been given to several Parisian has been given to several states.

states. states. The explan the claim that this The explan the claim that this The explan the claim that this particular land dispute would unlock particular land dispute would unlock particular land dispute would unlock every other injustice in the world every other injustice in the world every other injustice in the world should be seen on its face to be should be seen on its face to be should be seen on its face to be preposterous. preposterous. preposterous. There is no reason why if uh the There is no reason why if uh the There is no reason why if uh the Palestinians got another state either in Palestinians got another state either in Palestinians got another state either in Gaza or in parts of Judea and Samaria, Gaza or in parts of Judea and Samaria, Gaza or in parts of Judea and Samaria, the West Bank, there is no reason why we the West Bank, there is no reason why we the West Bank, there is no reason why we should expect the economy of Yemen to boom. It would not inevitably lead to boom. It would not inevitably lead to the mullers in Tehran giving equal the mullers in Tehran giving equal the mullers in Tehran giving equal rights to rights to rights to women or anything else. it it it would women or anything else. it it it would women or anything else. it it it would solve the the most likely thing is you'd solve the the most likely thing is you'd solve the the most likely thing is you'd simply have another failed Arab state simply have another failed Arab state simply have another failed Arab state run by a sort of proxy of Thran. That's run by a sort of proxy of Thran. That's run by a sort of proxy of Thran. That's the best case scenario. And by the way, the best case scenario. And by the way, the best case scenario. And by the way, even lifelong defenders of the even lifelong defenders of the even lifelong defenders of the Palestinian cause like Salman Rushi, he Palestinian cause like Salman Rushi, he Palestinian cause like Salman Rushi, he said recently, he said there, he said, said recently, he said there, he said, said recently, he said there, he said, "I've always been a supporter of the "I've always been a supporter of the "I've always been a supporter of the Palestinian people and their cause, but Palestinian people and their cause, but Palestinian people and their cause, but it is an unavoidable fact that if it is an unavoidable fact that if it is an unavoidable fact that if another state was given to the another state was given to the another state was given to the Palestinians, it would simply be at best Palestinians, it would simply be at best Palestinians, it would simply be at best another front for the Iranian regime in another front for the Iranian regime in another front for the Iranian regime in Iran at best." So why the passion about Iran at best." So why the passion about Iran at best." So why the passion about why the unbelievable wild passion about why the unbelievable wild passion about why the unbelievable wild passion about this? Why the and and I say some of it this? Why the and and I say some of it this? Why the and and I say some of it can be should be argued out and so on can be should be argued out and so on can be should be argued out and so on and some of it can be explained but but

and some of it can be explained but but and some of it can be explained but but there's definitely a realm of it a layer there's definitely a realm of it a layer there's definitely a realm of it a layer of it which is simply at that level of of it which is simply at that level of of it which is simply at that level of this excites something within this excites something within this excites something within me. This excites something within me. me. This excites something within me. me. This excites something within me. Yeah, there there's some there's some Yeah, there there's some there's some Yeah, there there's some there's some there's something compelling to people there's something compelling to people there's something compelling to people about hating Jews. Look at the look at about hating Jews. Look at the look at about hating Jews. Look at the look at the prominence of of of or you know the prominence of of of or you know the prominence of of of or you know semi-prominent people who are willing to semi-prominent people who are willing to semi-prominent people who are willing to play around with the idea that 9/11 was play around with the idea that 9/11 was play around with the idea that 9/11 was an inside job and somehow it's done by an inside job and somehow it's done by an inside job and somehow it's done by the the the Israelis or the Jews. I mean I mean look Israelis or the Jews. I mean I mean look Israelis or the Jews. I mean I mean look at the like this this is going at the like this this is going at the like this this is going around. I have to admit, you know, I'm around. I have to admit, you know, I'm around. I have to admit, you know, I'm there's a part of my brain that's pulled there's a part of my brain that's pulled there's a part of my brain that's pulled towards conspiracies. There's something towards conspiracies. There's something towards conspiracies. There's something compelling and fun about a simple compelling and fun about a simple compelling and fun about a simple explanation for things. what's really explanation for things. what's really explanation for things. what's really going on behind the scenes because the going on behind the scenes because the going on behind the scenes because the real world when you don't look at the real world when you don't look at the real world when you don't look at the conspiracies, first of all, it's conspiracies, first of all, it's conspiracies, first of all, it's complicated and second of all, it's kind complicated and second of all, it's kind complicated and second of all, it's kind of boring. It's a bunch of incompetent of boring. It's a bunch of incompetent of boring. It's a bunch of incompetent people usually opening up Pandora's people usually opening up Pandora's people usually opening up Pandora's boxes they don't understand. Yeah. It's boxes they don't understand. Yeah. It's boxes they don't understand. Yeah. It's pushing buffoons and I've been uh I mean pushing buffoons and I've been uh I mean pushing buffoons and I've been uh I mean I've I've uh walked around and hung I've I've uh walked around and hung I've I've uh walked around and hung around with a lot of powerful and rich around with a lot of powerful and rich around with a lot of powerful and rich people and like the thing I learned is people and like the thing I learned is people and like the thing I learned is they're just human beings. There's not they're just human beings. There's not they're just human beings. There's not I'm yet to be in a room where I'm yet to be in a room where I'm yet to be in a room where exceptionally brilliant psychopaths are exceptionally brilliant psychopaths are exceptionally brilliant psychopaths are plotting.

plotting. plotting. You never got that invite. No. In fact, You never got that invite. No. In fact, You never got that invite. No. In fact, like a lot of people in the positions of like a lot of people in the positions of like a lot of people in the positions of power, they're just not good. I mean, power, they're just not good. I mean, power, they're just not good. I mean, I'm just continuously disappointed I'm just continuously disappointed I'm just continuously disappointed that they're not ultra I love that they're not ultra I love that they're not ultra I love competence. Yeah, the places where I've competence. Yeah, the places where I've competence. Yeah, the places where I've seen competence inklings of it is in uh seen competence inklings of it is in uh seen competence inklings of it is in uh lowlevel like soldiers like lowlevel uh lowlevel like soldiers like lowlevel uh lowlevel like soldiers like lowlevel uh what do you call that? People that do what do you call that? People that do what do you call that? People that do stuff with their hands. So uh builders stuff with their hands. So uh builders stuff with their hands. So uh builders of different kinds like engineering like of different kinds like engineering like of different kinds like engineering like craftsman like I've seen Yes. Because craftsman like I've seen Yes. Because craftsman like I've seen Yes. Because you got because you've got a very you got because you've got a very you got because you've got a very specific task that could be highly specific task that could be highly specific task that could be highly complicated. Yes. But you get to apply complicated. Yes. But you get to apply complicated. Yes. But you get to apply yourself to and to solve. Yeah. Over yourself to and to solve. Yeah. Over yourself to and to solve. Yeah. Over years you master it. It's passed across years you master it. It's passed across years you master it. It's passed across generations and so on. But like state generations and so on. But like state generations and so on. But like state craft and like that that kind of stuff. craft and like that that kind of stuff. craft and like that that kind of stuff. Well, it's because there's so many Well, it's because there's so many Well, it's because there's so many variables. I mean, this is this is one variables. I mean, this is this is one variables. I mean, this is this is one of the when you were trying to lure me of the when you were trying to lure me of the when you were trying to lure me on to prognostications on Ukraine on to prognostications on Ukraine on to prognostications on Ukraine earlier. I was saying I just I've seen earlier. I was saying I just I've seen earlier. I was saying I just I've seen enough to know that I just don't know enough to know that I just don't know enough to know that I just don't know because I know of the amount of things because I know of the amount of things because I know of the amount of things that can change all the time. I I was that can change all the time. I I was that can change all the time. I I was some years ago I was talking to a a some years ago I was talking to a a some years ago I was talking to a a former public servant in the UK when um former public servant in the UK when um former public servant in the UK when um uh uh Boris Johnson was prime minister uh uh Boris Johnson was prime minister uh uh Boris Johnson was prime minister and co started and I mentioned to this and co started and I mentioned to this and co started and I mentioned to this friend I said well you know it's it's friend I said well you know it's it's friend I said well you know it's it's pretty bad luck for Boris that you know pretty bad luck for Boris that you know pretty bad luck for Boris that you know he came in to do one thing which was he came in to do one thing which was he came in to do one thing which was Brexit and then there's a global Brexit and then there's a global Brexit and then there's a global pandemic from Wuhan you know and he's pandemic from Wuhan you know and he's pandemic from Wuhan you know and he's got to like mug up on that and then gets got to like mug up on that and then gets got to like mug up on that and then gets it really wrong it really wrong it really wrong Anyway, and I was really struck by the

Anyway, and I was really struck by the Anyway, and I was really struck by the fact this man, a man man of great fact this man, a man man of great fact this man, a man man of great insight who happened to disagree insight who happened to disagree insight who happened to disagree politically, but said to me, "But politically, but said to me, "But politically, but said to me, "But Douglas is always like Douglas is always like Douglas is always like this." And he said, you know, look at this." And he said, you know, look at this." And he said, you know, look at Tony Blair came into power in 1997 Tony Blair came into power in 1997 Tony Blair came into power in 1997 wanting to reform education in the UK, wanting to reform education in the UK, wanting to reform education in the UK, ends up trying to remake the Middle ends up trying to remake the Middle ends up trying to remake the Middle East. And I I I do I mean as I say one East. And I I I do I mean as I say one East. And I I I do I mean as I say one of the reasons why I am scornful of of the reasons why I am scornful of of the reasons why I am scornful of conspiracy theorists and most conspiracy conspiracy theorists and most conspiracy conspiracy theorists and most conspiracy theories not to say that there aren't theories not to say that there aren't theories not to say that there aren't some that do actually turn out to be you some that do actually turn out to be you some that do actually turn out to be you know to have something in them and that know to have something in them and that know to have something in them and that happens a lot of things are called happens a lot of things are called happens a lot of things are called conspiracy theories that turn out to be conspiracy theories that turn out to be conspiracy theories that turn out to be true lab league. Um but but in true lab league. Um but but in true lab league. Um but but in general the the suspicion and the scorn general the the suspicion and the scorn general the the suspicion and the scorn I have for people who fall into this is I have for people who fall into this is I have for people who fall into this is as I say it's a very lowgrade as I say it's a very lowgrade as I say it's a very lowgrade lowresolution look at the world by lowresolution look at the world by lowresolution look at the world by people who clearly have never seen people who clearly have never seen people who clearly have never seen the wildness of actions in the world and the wildness of actions in the world and the wildness of actions in the world and the way that they reverberate and the the way that they reverberate and the the way that they reverberate and the number of events. I mean I once spoke number of events. I mean I once spoke number of events. I mean I once spoke some years ago to a politician who some years ago to a politician who some years ago to a politician who literally said to me I won't name the literally said to me I won't name the literally said to me I won't name the country but said to me c can you help us country but said to me c can you help us country but said to me c can you help us out with with just how to cope on the out with with just how to cope on the out with with just how to cope on the about with the the day to and understand about with the the day to and understand about with the the day to and understand the the the daytoday struggle we're having with the daytoday struggle we're having with the daytoday struggle we're having with the cycle and I said what are you talking cycle and I said what are you talking cycle and I said what are you talking about and they said our experience in

about and they said our experience in about and they said our experience in government is that every day something government is that every day something government is that every day something comes up which we have to comes up which we have to comes up which we have to firefight and that's what we do that day firefight and that's what we do that day firefight and that's what we do that day and then the next day something else and then the next day something else and then the next day something else comes up which we have to firefight and comes up which we have to firefight and comes up which we have to firefight and we we're not we we're not we we're not getting our policies done and I and I getting our policies done and I and I getting our policies done and I and I just thought for me that rings an awful just thought for me that rings an awful just thought for me that rings an awful lot truer than that that country gets lot truer than that that country gets lot truer than that that country gets the odd phone call from a member of a the odd phone call from a member of a the odd phone call from a member of a Jewish Jewish Jewish family telling them yeah I just you know family telling them yeah I just you know family telling them yeah I just you know it's like come on. it's like come on. it's like come on. So, you know, that's I I do before I So, you know, that's I I do before I So, you know, that's I I do before I forget want to ask you about Iran. What forget want to ask you about Iran. What forget want to ask you about Iran. What role do they play in this conflict? Such a It's fascinating how it seems like a It's fascinating how it seems like Iran is uh fingerprints are everywhere Iran is uh fingerprints are everywhere Iran is uh fingerprints are everywhere in the Middle in the Middle in the Middle East. And it's also fascinating that, East. And it's also fascinating that, East. And it's also fascinating that, you know, I have a lot of friends, my you know, I have a lot of friends, my you know, I have a lot of friends, my best friend is Iranian. It's fascinating best friend is Iranian. It's fascinating best friend is Iranian. It's fascinating that the Islamic Revolution in Iran took that the Islamic Revolution in Iran took that the Islamic Revolution in Iran took the country from the leadership the country from the leadership the country from the leadership perspective backwards in such a drastic perspective backwards in such a drastic perspective backwards in such a drastic way and that they're still in power.

way and that they're still in power. way and that they're still in power. That confuses me because I know now it's That confuses me because I know now it's That confuses me because I know now it's possible I don't know the people of possible I don't know the people of possible I don't know the people of Iran. Iran. Iran. Sorry to make the obvious statement, but Sorry to make the obvious statement, but Sorry to make the obvious statement, but I just have a lot of friends in Iran and I just have a lot of friends in Iran and I just have a lot of friends in Iran and a lot of them, everybody I know there a lot of them, everybody I know there a lot of them, everybody I know there opposes the regime and they're opposes the regime and they're opposes the regime and they're brilliant. Yes. Educated, thoughtful, brilliant. Yes. Educated, thoughtful, brilliant. Yes. Educated, thoughtful, worldly worldly worldly people. And it confuses me that there's people. And it confuses me that there's people. And it confuses me that there's this is one of the I would say this is one of the I would say this is one of the I would say uh one of the greatest nations on earth. uh one of the greatest nations on earth. uh one of the greatest nations on earth. Certainly one of the great cultures of Certainly one of the great cultures of Certainly one of the great cultures of earth. cultures like the peoples of Iran earth. cultures like the peoples of Iran earth. cultures like the peoples of Iran and then you look at that and then you and then you look at that and then you and then you look at that and then you look at the leadership look at the leadership look at the leadership when they're behind most of the terror when they're behind most of the terror when they're behind most of the terror groups in the region certainly. Yeah. groups in the region certainly. Yeah. groups in the region certainly. Yeah. Can you just speak to that and how is it Can you just speak to that and how is it Can you just speak to that and how is it still the same regime since 1979? I know still the same regime since 1979? I know still the same regime since 1979? I know as you know I start on democracies and as you know I start on democracies and as you know I start on democracies and death cults with the the flight taking death cults with the the flight taking death cults with the the flight taking the Ayatollah from Paris to Thran. The Ayatollah from Paris to Thran. The flight that you say you wish never flight that you say you wish never flight that you say you wish never happened. I think it's one of the two happened. I think it's one of the two happened. I think it's one of the two worst journeys of the 20th century.

worst journeys of the 20th century. worst journeys of the 20th century. What's the other one? Was it Lenin's What's the other one? Was it Lenin's What's the other one? Was it Lenin's train getting to Petrorad? Yeah, train getting to Petrorad? Yeah, train getting to Petrorad? Yeah, it's always about the transportation. it's always about the transportation. it's always about the transportation. It's Yes, I know. I'm I'm really a It's Yes, I know. I'm I'm really a It's Yes, I know. I'm I'm really a transport guy. No, I transport guy. No, I transport guy. No, I um wait till my book of 10 best journeys um wait till my book of 10 best journeys um wait till my book of 10 best journeys um across the world. No. Um just as the um across the world. No. Um just as the um across the world. No. Um just as the train to the Finland train to the Finland train to the Finland station brought the basselus of station brought the basselus of station brought the basselus of bulcheism into bulcheism into bulcheism into Russia, so the flight coming from Paris Russia, so the flight coming from Paris Russia, so the flight coming from Paris bringing the ayati to Thran brought the bringing the ayati to Thran brought the bringing the ayati to Thran brought the bassilus of Hmenanism, the most radical bassilus of Hmenanism, the most radical bassilus of Hmenanism, the most radical form of Shiite form of Shiite form of Shiite Islam to Thran and to Iran. And it's one Islam to Thran and to Iran. And it's one Islam to Thran and to Iran. And it's one of the great tragedies of the modern of the great tragedies of the modern of the great tragedies of the modern era. era. era. what happened there. Like you actually I what happened there. Like you actually I what happened there. Like you actually I have a lot of Persian friends and I had have a lot of Persian friends and I had have a lot of Persian friends and I had the great good fortune early in my life the great good fortune early in my life the great good fortune early in my life to have a very close late friend who had to have a very close late friend who had to have a very close late friend who had grown up in pre-revolutionary Iran was grown up in pre-revolutionary Iran was grown up in pre-revolutionary Iran was very fond of the sha and and and so on.

very fond of the sha and and and so on. very fond of the sha and and and so on. her father had been an ayatollah before her father had been an ayatollah before her father had been an ayatollah before the the overthrow of the sha but and you the the overthrow of the sha but and you the the overthrow of the sha but and you know everyone had criticisms of him but know everyone had criticisms of him but know everyone had criticisms of him but um when you saw what came after him it um when you saw what came after him it um when you saw what came after him it just uh it was among other things uh just uh it was among other things uh just uh it was among other things uh what I learned from her and other what I learned from her and other what I learned from her and other friends from that region was that I friends from that region was that I friends from that region was that I suppose two things one is of course is suppose two things one is of course is suppose two things one is of course is that it's a sort of central conservative that it's a sort of central conservative that it's a sort of central conservative insight you know things can always be insight you know things can always be insight you know things can always be worse they can always be worse never say worse they can always be worse never say worse they can always be worse never say this is rock bottom this is rock bottom this is rock bottom because yeah, you know, like you might because yeah, you know, like you might because yeah, you know, like you might have a sh with hundreds or even have a sh with hundreds or even have a sh with hundreds or even thousands of political prisoners in thousands of political prisoners in thousands of political prisoners in cells, but you could always have cells, but you could always have cells, but you could always have butchering them butchering them butchering them all and um including the people who all and um including the people who all and um including the people who helped him get to power like the helped him get to power like the helped him get to power like the communists and the trade unionists who communists and the trade unionists who communists and the trade unionists who who simply were fighting against the sha who simply were fighting against the sha who simply were fighting against the sha and then were very useful for the idler and then were very useful for the idler and then were very useful for the idler until he didn't need them anymore. until he didn't need them anymore. until he didn't need them anymore. Um but the other thing I learned from Um but the other thing I learned from Um but the other thing I learned from that particular friend and and others that particular friend and and others that particular friend and and others was was was that was this this thing that was this this thing that was this this thing that and again it's very hard for the that and again it's very hard for the that and again it's very hard for the western mindset very hard for the western mindset very hard for the western mindset very hard for the American mindset in particular that American mindset in particular that American mindset in particular that there is such a thing as fanaticism real there is such a thing as fanaticism real there is such a thing as fanaticism real fanaticism and real ideological and real fanaticism and real ideological and real fanaticism and real ideological and real religious fanaticism and the thing that religious fanaticism and the thing that religious fanaticism and the thing that I describe leads to the death cult I describe leads to the death cult I describe leads to the death cult mindset that fanaticism is something mindset that fanaticism is something mindset that fanaticism is something which is very easy for the west to which is very easy for the west to which is very easy for the west to forget. get because we haven't seen it forget. get because we haven't seen it forget. get because we haven't seen it in a while. You know, we get very um

in a while. You know, we get very um in a while. You know, we get very um distant echoes of it in our own distant echoes of it in our own distant echoes of it in our own societies really and we're highly societies really and we're highly societies really and we're highly attuned to hear them which is good in attuned to hear them which is good in attuned to hear them which is good in some some some ways. Um, but ways. Um, but ways. Um, but homism not only vastly set homism not only vastly set homism not only vastly set back the Persian people, the Iranian back the Persian people, the Iranian back the Persian people, the Iranian nation, but has managed to keep it in nation, but has managed to keep it in nation, but has managed to keep it in subjugation since 1979. And your subjugation since 1979. And your subjugation since 1979. And your question of why gets to one of the question of why gets to one of the question of why gets to one of the really the biggest questions really that really the biggest questions really that really the biggest questions really that that has to be unders the answer to that has to be unders the answer to that has to be unders the answer to which has to be understood which is it's which has to be understood which is it's which has to be understood which is it's what Soljan Nitsson says at one point in what Soljan Nitsson says at one point in what Soljan Nitsson says at one point in Gulag archipelago in that passage where Gulag archipelago in that passage where Gulag archipelago in that passage where he describes when we heard the footsteps he describes when we heard the footsteps he describes when we heard the footsteps on the on the on the staircase and the knock was on our staircase and the knock was on our staircase and the knock was on our neighbor's neighbor's neighbor's door and we knew our neighbor was being door and we knew our neighbor was being door and we knew our neighbor was being taken taken taken way. Why did we not stop And in the case of the revolutionary And in the case of the revolutionary government in government in government in Iran, you know, it's the same answer as Iran, you know, it's the same answer as Iran, you know, it's the same answer as whether it's governing Gaza with the the whether it's governing Gaza with the the whether it's governing Gaza with the the people whoever the people in Gaza are people whoever the people in Gaza are people whoever the people in Gaza are who would have liked to have seen them overthrown. You overthrown. You know, people don't know, people don't know, people don't realize that despite the rhetoric and realize that despite the rhetoric and realize that despite the rhetoric and everything else, everything changes if

everything else, everything changes if everything else, everything changes if the other guy might kill the other guy might kill the other guy might kill you. And that, you know, when the green you. And that, you know, when the green you. And that, you know, when the green revolution in 2009 started in revolution in 2009 started in revolution in 2009 started in Iran, why was it put down? Why didn't it Iran, why was it put down? Why didn't it Iran, why was it put down? Why didn't it work? work? work? Why, like you, my the sort of Iranians Why, like you, my the sort of Iranians Why, like you, my the sort of Iranians who I really hope one day get their who I really hope one day get their who I really hope one day get their country back, why did all these smart country back, why did all these smart country back, why did all these smart young students and others, why after young students and others, why after young students and others, why after they came out, why was it put down? It they came out, why was it put down? It they came out, why was it put down? It was put down because the Bas militia was put down because the Bas militia was put down because the Bas militia will shoot you in the will shoot you in the will shoot you in the head and they'll take you to a prison as head and they'll take you to a prison as head and they'll take you to a prison as they did with the Iranian students and they did with the Iranian students and they did with the Iranian students and they'll rape you with bottles and kill they'll rape you with bottles and kill they'll rape you with bottles and kill you. you. you. And even a little bit of that goes an And even a little bit of that goes an And even a little bit of that goes an awfully long way to tell the rest of awfully long way to tell the rest of awfully long way to tell the rest of society not to do it again. You know, we society not to do it again. You know, we society not to do it again. You know, we know it happens like that from know it happens like that from know it happens like that from films, but too few people films, but too few people films, but too few people understand that regimes like that in understand that regimes like that in understand that regimes like that in Thran operate like that on a grand Thran operate like that on a grand Thran operate like that on a grand scale, on the biggest of scales, and scale, on the biggest of scales, and scale, on the biggest of scales, and with the ultimate of brutality.

with the ultimate of brutality. with the ultimate of brutality. And that's how they stay in power. And And that's how they stay in power. And And that's how they stay in power. And one other thing on that by the way, one other thing on that by the way, one other thing on that by the way, which is I was I was reminded of this which is I was I was reminded of this which is I was I was reminded of this the other day, but you know, thinking the other day, but you know, thinking the other day, but you know, thinking about this sort of, you know, what I've about this sort of, you know, what I've about this sort of, you know, what I've just described as a sort of a problem in just described as a sort of a problem in just described as a sort of a problem in democracies is that we just, you know, democracies is that we just, you know, democracies is that we just, you know, we like to think everyone thinks like us we like to think everyone thinks like us we like to think everyone thinks like us and, you know, we'd like everyone to and, you know, we'd like everyone to and, you know, we'd like everyone to sort of be like us and we we believe sort of be like us and we we believe sort of be like us and we we believe fictions that we're taught in films fictions that we're taught in films fictions that we're taught in films like, you know, everyone basically wants like, you know, everyone basically wants like, you know, everyone basically wants the same things as us. and you go you the same things as us. and you go you the same things as us. and you go you haven't stepped outside the walls of the haven't stepped outside the walls of the haven't stepped outside the walls of the city if you think that. But the second city if you think that. But the second city if you think that. But the second thing is this thing of the death cults thing is this thing of the death cults thing is this thing of the death cults of of of why why we sort of sing singly fail to why why we sort of sing singly fail to why why we sort of sing singly fail to understand that this is understand that this is understand that this is possible. possible. possible. And homism is both very specific and And homism is both very specific and And homism is both very specific and also very strongly linked to also very strongly linked to also very strongly linked to totalitarian and radical and extremist totalitarian and radical and extremist totalitarian and radical and extremist death cult movements that are not that death cult movements that are not that death cult movements that are not that far in our past.

far in our past. far in our past. I mean, you know, there's a moment in uh I mean, you know, there's a moment in uh I mean, you know, there's a moment in uh um when Ariana Falachi interviewed in um when Ariana Falachi interviewed in um when Ariana Falachi interviewed in 1979, one of the very few Western 1979, one of the very few Western 1979, one of the very few Western journalists to do journalists to do journalists to do so. She says to him, "These people in so. She says to him, "These people in so. She says to him, "These people in the street, this movement, this the street, this movement, this the street, this movement, this revolution you've revolution you've revolution you've begun, it's guided by hate. It's hate. begun, it's guided by hate. It's hate. begun, it's guided by hate. It's hate. It's all It's all It's all hate." And Hani says, "No, no, it's hate." And Hani says, "No, no, it's hate." And Hani says, "No, no, it's love. love. love. It's It's It's love love love and and it's actually a scene that that and and it's actually a scene that that and and it's actually a scene that that that appears in the satanic verses of that appears in the satanic verses of that appears in the satanic verses of Rushi where that exact same thing Rushi where that exact same thing Rushi where that exact same thing happens. But I was thinking about this happens. But I was thinking about this happens. But I was thinking about this recently because I was thinking what how recently because I was thinking what how recently because I was thinking what how can you explain to a western mindset can you explain to a western mindset can you explain to a western mindset that that's that's something that's that that's that's something that's that that's that's something that's going on. There are people directed by going on. There are people directed by going on. There are people directed by this hate that calls itself love. this this hate that calls itself love. this this hate that calls itself love. this this and I was reminded of a book I this and I was reminded of a book I this and I was reminded of a book I haven't read since I was probably a haven't read since I was probably a haven't read since I was probably a teenager or something made a great teenager or something made a great teenager or something made a great impression on me then. Did you ever read impression on me then. Did you ever read impression on me then. Did you ever read the the tragic sense of life? Uh Miguel the the tragic sense of life? Uh Miguel the the tragic sense of life? Uh Miguel de Unimuno great Spanish existentialist de Unimuno great Spanish existentialist de Unimuno great Spanish existentialist philosopher died in the 30s. Unamuno had philosopher died in the 30s. Unamuno had philosopher died in the 30s. Unamuno had a encounter with students at the a encounter with students at the a encounter with students at the university in the 30s when he realizes I university in the 30s when he realizes I university in the 30s when he realizes I mean this is the the the early period of mean this is the the the early period of mean this is the the the early period of the the the Francoists Da and all those people you Francoists Da and all those people you Francoists Da and all those people you know is at this meeting and the chant know is at this meeting and the chant know is at this meeting and the chant goes up from the eager students who have goes up from the eager students who have goes up from the eager students who have fallen into this sort of

fallen into this sort of fallen into this sort of philangist Francoist ideology already. philangist Francoist ideology already. philangist Francoist ideology already. They end up chanting in front of him as They end up chanting in front of him as They end up chanting in front of him as he's trying to defend the principles by he's trying to defend the principles by he's trying to defend the principles by which he has lived his life. They end up which he has lived his life. They end up which he has lived his life. They end up chanting in front of him viva chanting in front of him viva chanting in front of him viva leuete. Long live leuete. Long live leuete. Long live death. Long live death. Long live death. Long live death. And he tries to explain to them death. And he tries to explain to them death. And he tries to explain to them this this this is this is a necrophilic chant. Yeah. is this is a necrophilic chant. Yeah. is this is a necrophilic chant. Yeah. But those young But those young But those young men in prefranist Spain shouting long men in prefranist Spain shouting long men in prefranist Spain shouting long live death, they have their counterparts live death, they have their counterparts live death, they have their counterparts today. They are the people who who taunt today. They are the people who who taunt today. They are the people who who taunt Americans, Westerners, Israelis, and Americans, Westerners, Israelis, and Americans, Westerners, Israelis, and others with lines others with lines others with lines like, "We love death more than you love like, "We love death more than you love like, "We love death more than you love life." Yeah, that's the line you return life." Yeah, that's the line you return life." Yeah, that's the line you return to. That's a really difficult line to to. That's a really difficult line to to. That's a really difficult line to load load load in because if you base your whole in because if you base your whole in because if you base your whole existence on that notion, then um well, you're a danger to notion, then um well, you're a danger to the the the world. That's a good foundation for world. That's a good foundation for world. That's a good foundation for committing committing committing evil. Um I I have to ask because you evil. Um I I have to ask because you evil. Um I I have to ask because you mentioned that interview. You had a good mentioned that interview. You had a good mentioned that interview. You had a good interview with Benjamin Netanyahu after interview with Benjamin Netanyahu after interview with Benjamin Netanyahu after October October October 7th and I've been very fortunate to get 7th and I've been very fortunate to get 7th and I've been very fortunate to get the opportunity to interview a few world the opportunity to interview a few world the opportunity to interview a few world leaders. It looks like I'll interview leaders. It looks like I'll interview leaders. It looks like I'll interview Vladimir Putin and others. One, I have a

Vladimir Putin and others. One, I have a Vladimir Putin and others. One, I have a general question about how do you general question about how do you general question about how do you interview people like interview people like interview people like this? maybe to put your historian hat on this? maybe to put your historian hat on this? maybe to put your historian hat on of like how do you approach the of like how do you approach the of like how do you approach the interview of world interview of world interview of world leaders such that you can gain a deeper leaders such that you can gain a deeper leaders such that you can gain a deeper understanding in the hope that that adds understanding in the hope that that adds understanding in the hope that that adds to the compassion in the world. So I to the compassion in the world. So I to the compassion in the world. So I have I have a deep sense that have I have a deep sense that have I have a deep sense that understanding people you might understanding people you might understanding people you might hate helps in the long arc of history hate helps in the long arc of history hate helps in the long arc of history add compassion to the world. But even add compassion to the world. But even add compassion to the world. But even just to add understanding is difficult just to add understanding is difficult just to add understanding is difficult in those kinds of in those kinds of in those kinds of contexts. contexts. contexts. And you know maybe it's more useful to And you know maybe it's more useful to And you know maybe it's more useful to think about from a historian perspective think about from a historian perspective think about from a historian perspective of how you uh need to interview somebody of how you uh need to interview somebody of how you uh need to interview somebody like Hitler or Stalin or like Hitler or Stalin or like Hitler or Stalin or Churchill FDR during World War II. Churchill FDR during World War II. Churchill FDR during World War II. M it's not you know I think about this a M it's not you know I think about this a M it's not you know I think about this a lot especially if it's uh you know 2 3 4 lot especially if it's uh you know 2 3 4 lot especially if it's uh you know 2 3 4 5 hour conversation well there's a lot 5 hour conversation well there's a lot 5 hour conversation well there's a lot of uh weight on you when you do those of uh weight on you when you do those of uh weight on you when you do those conversations isn't from where so like conversations isn't from where so like conversations isn't from where so like where who's watching is it historians 20 where who's watching is it historians 20 where who's watching is it historians 20 years from then who knows I mean the years from then who knows I mean the years from then who knows I mean the whole data might be wiped I whole data might be wiped I whole data might be wiped I I I suspect there's a wait on you I I suspect there's a wait on you I I suspect there's a wait on you because every major a world leader you because every major a world leader you because every major a world leader you interview and you've done some amazing interview and you've done some amazing interview and you've done some amazing ones, but I mean you you

ones, but I mean you you ones, but I mean you you presumably you have a set of people presumably you have a set of people presumably you have a set of people saying you've got to ask him about this. saying you've got to ask him about this. saying you've got to ask him about this. you you can't not address this. And and you you can't not address this. And and you you can't not address this. And and that's a very challenging one because of that's a very challenging one because of that's a very challenging one because of course although in an interview with a course although in an interview with a course although in an interview with a politician should not should not be supine nor can it be endlessly supine nor can it be endlessly interrogative because like you're not interrogative because like you're not interrogative because like you're not the prosecutor and they don't have to be the prosecutor and they don't have to be the prosecutor and they don't have to be the guilty party answering to you. And the guilty party answering to you. And the guilty party answering to you. And I've noticed the number of people who I've noticed the number of people who I've noticed the number of people who interview people, world leaders and interview people, world leaders and interview people, world leaders and others who go in with a set of sort others who go in with a set of sort others who go in with a set of sort of those things and and they and and at of those things and and they and and at of those things and and they and and at some point the other party can some point the other party can some point the other party can just I don't need this. And people just I don't need this. And people just I don't need this. And people criticizing you don't realize that you criticizing you don't realize that you criticizing you don't realize that you just can't do that. Yeah. I suppose why just can't do that. Yeah. I suppose why just can't do that. Yeah. I suppose why journalists behave the way they do journalists behave the way they do journalists behave the way they do although I have increasingly less and although I have increasingly less and although I have increasingly less and less respect for the journalist um the less respect for the journalist um the less respect for the journalist um the average journalist. I have more and more average journalist. I have more and more average journalist. I have more and more respect for the great journalists as my respect for the great journalists as my respect for the great journalists as my respect for the average journalist respect for the average journalist respect for the average journalist decreases. Uh because a lot of the decreases. Uh because a lot of the decreases. Uh because a lot of the journalists seem to be s signaling to journalists seem to be s signaling to journalists seem to be s signaling to their own in in group.

their own in in group. their own in in group. But there is a lot of pressure on uh But there is a lot of pressure on uh But there is a lot of pressure on uh people in that situation to ask the what people in that situation to ask the what people in that situation to ask the what I would say is the dumb question. Why is I would say is the dumb question. Why is I would say is the dumb question. Why is it the dumb question? uh the adversarial it the dumb question? uh the adversarial it the dumb question? uh the adversarial question question question that the the world leader the person is that the the world leader the person is that the the world leader the person is ready for. They've answered that ready for. They've answered that ready for. They've answered that question question question and what you're trying to do is I guess and what you're trying to do is I guess and what you're trying to do is I guess one to signal that you've asked the one to signal that you've asked the one to signal that you've asked the question and to push them. Yes. Uh two, question and to push them. Yes. Uh two, question and to push them. Yes. Uh two, you're trying to like just create drama you're trying to like just create drama you're trying to like just create drama because really what people that ask you because really what people that ask you because really what people that ask you to ask that question, they want you to to ask that question, they want you to to ask that question, they want you to embarrass that person. They hate them embarrass that person. They hate them embarrass that person. They hate them and they want you to like make them piss and they want you to like make them piss and they want you to like make them piss their pants or something or just start their pants or something or just start their pants or something or just start crying and run out. Yeah. Walk out in a crying and run out. Yeah. Walk out in a crying and run out. Yeah. Walk out in a way that it's embarrassing for them. way that it's embarrassing for them. way that it's embarrassing for them. They could be like, "Look at that They could be like, "Look at that They could be like, "Look at that pathetic person." Uh, and that reveals pathetic person." Uh, and that reveals pathetic person." Uh, and that reveals to me nothing except maybe the weakness to me nothing except maybe the weakness to me nothing except maybe the weakness of the interviewee that they can't stand of the interviewee that they can't stand of the interviewee that they can't stand up to a tough question. Yes. But mostly up to a tough question. Yes. But mostly up to a tough question. Yes. But mostly like I'm I'm starting I I have to do a like I'm I'm starting I I have to do a like I'm I'm starting I I have to do a lot of thinking because you get attacked lot of thinking because you get attacked lot of thinking because you get attacked a lot. If you ask questions from a place a lot. If you ask questions from a place a lot. If you ask questions from a place of curiosity that actually have a chance of curiosity that actually have a chance of curiosity that actually have a chance to reveal who the person is there's a to reveal who the person is there's a to reveal who the person is there's a very interesting line that Robin Day who very interesting line that Robin Day who very interesting line that Robin Day who was quite a distinguished interviewer was quite a distinguished interviewer was quite a distinguished interviewer back a very distinguished interviewer back a very distinguished interviewer back a very distinguished interviewer back in the day said about Jeremy Paxman back in the day said about Jeremy Paxman back in the day said about Jeremy Paxman who was a very interrogative interviewer who was a very interrogative interviewer who was a very interrogative interviewer in the UK. Robin Day, who was quite good

in the UK. Robin Day, who was quite good in the UK. Robin Day, who was quite good at being rude to politicians but at being rude to politicians but at being rude to politicians but carefully, said the problem with the new carefully, said the problem with the new carefully, said the problem with the new approach, as he saw it from the ' 90s of approach, as he saw it from the ' 90s of approach, as he saw it from the ' 90s of political interviewing, was he said, "If political interviewing, was he said, "If political interviewing, was he said, "If you think the person you're speaking to you think the person you're speaking to you think the person you're speaking to is a is a is a liar, you should get them to reveal that liar, you should get them to reveal that liar, you should get them to reveal that they're a liar. Don't just call them a they're a liar. Don't just call them a they're a liar. Don't just call them a liar." Yeah. Y and I think that is again liar." Yeah. Y and I think that is again liar." Yeah. Y and I think that is again it's something that a lot of people it's something that a lot of people it's something that a lot of people sitting on the other side of the screen sitting on the other side of the screen sitting on the other side of the screen don't realize is that it may satisfy don't realize is that it may satisfy don't realize is that it may satisfy them that you call a person a liar to them that you call a person a liar to them that you call a person a liar to their face but it doesn't do anything their face but it doesn't do anything their face but it doesn't do anything and it actually reveals nothing and it actually reveals nothing and it actually reveals nothing if somebody is a liar and they reveal if somebody is a liar and they reveal if somebody is a liar and they reveal themselves to be a liar then that's themselves to be a liar then that's themselves to be a liar then that's that's something else but yes I mean I that's something else but yes I mean I that's something else but yes I mean I can I I hear you you're obviously you can I I hear you you're obviously you can I I hear you you're obviously you have lot of different have lot of different have lot of different voices telling you what to voices telling you what to voices telling you what to do. It's also difficult cuz one of the do. It's also difficult cuz one of the do. It's also difficult cuz one of the things that I don't think anyone really things that I don't think anyone really things that I don't think anyone really understands is that is that in the end understands is that is that in the end understands is that is that in the end it's just you. Yeah. I'm sure they you it's just you. Yeah. I'm sure they you it's just you. Yeah. I'm sure they you have this about Putin like people say I have this about Putin like people say I have this about Putin like people say I I know exactly how you can you know they I know exactly how you can you know they I know exactly how you can you know they could give endless advice. The end is could give endless advice. The end is could give endless advice. The end is you sitting down talking to him.

you sitting down talking to him. you sitting down talking to him. It's it's like everybody knows how to It's it's like everybody knows how to It's it's like everybody knows how to behave on the presidential debate stage, behave on the presidential debate stage, behave on the presidential debate stage, but only a few people have done it. In but only a few people have done it. In but only a few people have done it. In person, it's actually pretty difficult person, it's actually pretty difficult person, it's actually pretty difficult as I mean, it's very difficult because as I mean, it's very difficult because as I mean, it's very difficult because you've got all this weird behind thes you've got all this weird behind thes you've got all this weird behind thes scenes stuff as well. You've got all of scenes stuff as well. You've got all of scenes stuff as well. You've got all of the games that people play. I mean yeah the games that people play. I mean yeah the games that people play. I mean yeah with uh you know I interviewed Zilinski with uh you know I interviewed Zilinski with uh you know I interviewed Zilinski you know I'm pretty fearless in general you know I'm pretty fearless in general you know I'm pretty fearless in general and he was a very human and fascinating and he was a very human and fascinating and he was a very human and fascinating human but there is soldiers with guns human but there is soldiers with guns human but there is soldiers with guns standing all around standing all around standing all around and you didn't have anyone you no one and you didn't have anyone you no one and you didn't have anyone you no one was packing on your side I I had one was packing on your side I I had one was packing on your side I I had one friend security person who's also friend security person who's also friend security person who's also Ukrainian so you never know you could Ukrainian so you never know you could Ukrainian so you never know you could turn on turn on turn on you've been infiltrated yeah exactly no you've been infiltrated yeah exactly no you've been infiltrated yeah exactly no I mean that doesn't have any effect and I mean that doesn't have any effect and I mean that doesn't have any effect and by the way I should mention that uh by the way I should mention that uh by the way I should mention that uh because it's it's hilarious to me. But because it's it's hilarious to me. But because it's it's hilarious to me. But um um um process-wise with Narajod and with process-wise with Narajod and with process-wise with Narajod and with anyone, they don't they said it was anyone, they don't they said it was anyone, they don't they said it was scripted and all this kind of stuff. I scripted and all this kind of stuff. I scripted and all this kind of stuff. I would never do anything scripted. They would never do anything scripted. They would never do anything scripted. They don't get to have a say in anything I don't get to have a say in anything I don't get to have a say in anything I asked. I have complete freedom. Uh asked. I have complete freedom. Uh asked. I have complete freedom. Uh sometimes you'll have people on the team sometimes you'll have people on the team sometimes you'll have people on the team very politely nudge like hey can you uh very politely nudge like hey can you uh very politely nudge like hey can you uh and I'll very politely say thank you you and I'll very politely say thank you you and I'll very politely say thank you you know like smile but that doesn't mean I know like smile but that doesn't mean I know like smile but that doesn't mean I have to do it I I could do have to do it I I could do have to do it I I could do whatever the hell I want you the comm whatever the hell I want you the comm whatever the hell I want you the comm this actually by the way with world this actually by the way with world this actually by the way with world leaders it doesn't happen it happens leaders it doesn't happen it happens leaders it doesn't happen it happens more with CEOs because they have like more with CEOs because they have like more with CEOs because they have like usually PR and comms people they'll just usually PR and comms people they'll just usually PR and comms people they'll just be like very politely hey you know that

be like very politely hey you know that be like very politely hey you know that thing thing thing about, you know, when they that sexual about, you know, when they that sexual about, you know, when they that sexual assault, harassment charges they've had. assault, harassment charges they've had. assault, harassment charges they've had. Could we just There's no reason to Could we just There's no reason to Could we just There's no reason to really linger on that. We don't have to really linger on that. We don't have to really linger on that. We don't have to do that. Yeah. One of my favorite things do that. Yeah. One of my favorite things do that. Yeah. One of my favorite things anyone has ever said in adver or it's anyone has ever said in adver or it's anyone has ever said in adver or it's only ever happened I know a couple of only ever happened I know a couple of only ever happened I know a couple of cases of this happening in private. some cases of this happening in private. some cases of this happening in private. some friends some a friend of mine once years friends some a friend of mine once years friends some a friend of mine once years ago was debating against the this is ago was debating against the this is ago was debating against the this is before the the war the civil war in before the the war the civil war in before the the war the civil war in Syria was debating something to do with Syria was debating something to do with Syria was debating something to do with the Middle East and one of the people on the Middle East and one of the people on the Middle East and one of the people on the other side was the then Syrian the other side was the then Syrian the other side was the then Syrian ambassador in London the then Syrian ambassador in London the then Syrian ambassador in London the then Syrian ambassador in London says something ambassador in London says something ambassador in London says something about the Israeli treatment of the about the Israeli treatment of the about the Israeli treatment of the Palestinians and my friend stands up and Palestinians and my friend stands up and Palestinians and my friend stands up and starts talking about Assad senior's starts talking about Assad senior's starts talking about Assad senior's massacre of the Palestinians in Hammer massacre of the Palestinians in Hammer massacre of the Palestinians in Hammer where they killed like 10,000 where they killed like 10,000 where they killed like 10,000 Palestinians in a day um And my friend Palestinians in a day um And my friend Palestinians in a day um And my friend starts talking about the hammer massacre starts talking about the hammer massacre starts talking about the hammer massacre by uh Assad senior and the the big fat by uh Assad senior and the the big fat by uh Assad senior and the the big fat Syrian ambassador like stands up to Syrian ambassador like stands up to Syrian ambassador like stands up to respond and he says that is that is none respond and he says that is that is none respond and he says that is that is none of your of your of your business. And my friend was like oh I business. And my friend was like oh I business. And my friend was like oh I thought we were going to get into thought we were going to get into thought we were going to get into denial. Uh let me just ask you one more denial. Uh let me just ask you one more denial. Uh let me just ask you one more thing about Netanyahu.

thing about Netanyahu. thing about Netanyahu. Um cuz I also have the opportunity to do Um cuz I also have the opportunity to do Um cuz I also have the opportunity to do a 3-hour interview with him at this a 3-hour interview with him at this a 3-hour interview with him at this stage and I've been, if I'm just being stage and I've been, if I'm just being stage and I've been, if I'm just being honest, very hesitant to do it. And I honest, very hesitant to do it. And I honest, very hesitant to do it. And I just don't just don't just don't know how a conversation there could um know how a conversation there could um know how a conversation there could um help add compassion to the world. And help add compassion to the world. And help add compassion to the world. And that particular topic, no matter how that particular topic, no matter how that particular topic, no matter how well you do it, you do take on a very well you do it, you do take on a very well you do it, you do take on a very large number of people that will just large number of people that will just large number of people that will just make it their daily activity to hate you make it their daily activity to hate you make it their daily activity to hate you and to write about it and to post about and to write about it and to post about and to write about it and to post about it and to accuse you of things. In some it and to accuse you of things. In some it and to accuse you of things. In some sense, I don't want to lose the part of sense, I don't want to lose the part of sense, I don't want to lose the part of me that's that's v vulnerable to the me that's that's v vulnerable to the me that's that's v vulnerable to the world. People have very little world. People have very little world. People have very little understanding of things if they're understanding of things if they're understanding of things if they're willing to say that because you're willing to say that because you're willing to say that because you're sitting down and talking with somebody, sitting down and talking with somebody, sitting down and talking with somebody, you are ego, platforming them, uh um you are ego, platforming them, uh um you are ego, platforming them, uh um advancing their cause, being used, being advancing their cause, being used, being advancing their cause, being used, being a shill or whatever like that, you might a shill or whatever like that, you might a shill or whatever like that, you might be actually just finding some things be actually just finding some things be actually just finding some things out, which I I think something you do out, which I I think something you do out, which I I think something you do expertly. And another thing that your expertly. And another thing that your expertly. And another thing that your critics wouldn't realize is is that like critics wouldn't realize is is that like critics wouldn't realize is is that like you know life is long and you know you know life is long and you know you know life is long and you know hopefully God willing both around for a hopefully God willing both around for a hopefully God willing both around for a long time and therefore you don't blow long time and therefore you don't blow long time and therefore you don't blow everything up at the request of some everything up at the request of some everything up at the request of some online. Mhm. But I do think that a online. Mhm. But I do think that a online. Mhm. But I do think that a superpower of a kind is to identify the

superpower of a kind is to identify the superpower of a kind is to identify the people whose opinion you care for and people whose opinion you care for and people whose opinion you care for and worry about their opinion and no one worry about their opinion and no one worry about their opinion and no one else's really and and keep and just you else's really and and keep and just you else's really and and keep and just you just keep your own guiding light. That's just keep your own guiding light. That's just keep your own guiding light. That's what's always done it for for me is that what's always done it for for me is that what's always done it for for me is that I I I've always said I just don't really I I I've always said I just don't really I I I've always said I just don't really I wouldn't care if I was the only person I wouldn't care if I was the only person I wouldn't care if I was the only person with my opinion and billions of people with my opinion and billions of people with my opinion and billions of people disagreed. I mean I might be curious if disagreed. I mean I might be curious if disagreed. I mean I might be curious if the whole planet disagreed with me. It the whole planet disagreed with me. It the whole planet disagreed with me. It doesn't fundamentally that's not doesn't fundamentally that's not doesn't fundamentally that's not why I'll send you Churchill's great why I'll send you Churchill's great why I'll send you Churchill's great speech on the death of Chamberlain. speech on the death of Chamberlain. speech on the death of Chamberlain. I mean it. He says the He says one of I mean it. He says the He says one of I mean it. He says the He says one of the most wise and brilliant the most wise and brilliant the most wise and brilliant things. I was thinking about it slightly things. I was thinking about it slightly things. I was thinking about it slightly earlier when you were talking about earlier when you were talking about earlier when you were talking about Zilinski, but he because because one of Zilinski, but he because because one of Zilinski, but he because because one of Churchill's Churchill's Churchill's greatnesses was his greatnesses was his greatnesses was his magnanimity and um when his great magnanimity and um when his great magnanimity and um when his great political opponent Chamberlain political opponent Chamberlain political opponent Chamberlain died in 1940 and Churchill had just died in 1940 and Churchill had just died in 1940 and Churchill had just taken over as prime minister, he could taken over as prime minister, he could taken over as prime minister, he could have used the opportunity and we might have used the opportunity and we might have used the opportunity and we might even say that some politicians in our even say that some politicians in our even say that some politicians in our day won't be able to resist the day won't be able to resist the day won't be able to resist the opportunity. He could have used the opportunity. He could have used the opportunity. He could have used the opportunity to say, "You see, I was opportunity to say, "You see, I was opportunity to say, "You see, I was right and Chamberlain didn't know what right and Chamberlain didn't know what right and Chamberlain didn't know what the hell he was doing and he' let us the hell he was doing and he' let us the hell he was doing and he' let us into this mess and you should have all into this mess and you should have all into this mess and you should have all listened to me because that would have listened to me because that would have listened to me because that would have been a good time." Yeah. It would have been a good time." Yeah. It would have been a good time." Yeah. It would have been a good time to say that. That would been a good time to say that. That would been a good time to say that. That would have been one for the win, as they say.

have been one for the win, as they say. have been one for the win, as they say. But Churchill doesn't do that in his But Churchill doesn't do that in his But Churchill doesn't do that in his great eulogy for Chamberlain. He talks great eulogy for Chamberlain. He talks great eulogy for Chamberlain. He talks about how hard it is for mankind to about how hard it is for mankind to about how hard it is for mankind to operate in the world and how you can do operate in the world and how you can do operate in the world and how you can do it successfully. He very movingly says it successfully. He very movingly says it successfully. He very movingly says he doesn't even mention the name of he doesn't even mention the name of he doesn't even mention the name of Hitler. He says what were Neville Hitler. He says what were Neville Hitler. He says what were Neville Chamber's flaws. He says desiring of Chamber's flaws. He says desiring of Chamber's flaws. He says desiring of human peace to be seeking peace and he human peace to be seeking peace and he human peace to be seeking peace and he says and he his the curses he had was he says and he his the curses he had was he says and he his the curses he had was he was led astray by a very wicked man. And was led astray by a very wicked man. And was led astray by a very wicked man. And then but then he has this great then but then he has this great then but then he has this great passage where he Churchill passage where he Churchill passage where he Churchill says beautiful resonant passage about says beautiful resonant passage about says beautiful resonant passage about how he says it's not given to men how he says it's not given to men how he says it's not given to men happily for them for otherwise life happily for them for otherwise life happily for them for otherwise life would prove intolerable to foresee or to would prove intolerable to foresee or to would prove intolerable to foresee or to predict to any great extent the predict to any great extent the predict to any great extent the unfolding course of unfolding course of unfolding course of events. And he says in for one phase men events. And he says in for one phase men events. And he says in for one phase men seem to have been right and in another seem to have been right and in another seem to have been right and in another they're proved wrong. And then there's a they're proved wrong. And then there's a they're proved wrong. And then there's a a and there's a different scale of a and there's a different scale of a and there's a different scale of values emerges. And he said he says what values emerges. And he said he says what values emerges. And he said he says what is the worth of all this? He says the is the worth of all this? He says the is the worth of all this? He says the only guide to a man is his conscience.

only guide to a man is his conscience. only guide to a man is his conscience. The only shield to his memory is the The only shield to his memory is the The only shield to his memory is the rectitude and the sincerity of his rectitude and the sincerity of his rectitude and the sincerity of his actions. And he he says it doesn't actions. And he he says it doesn't actions. And he he says it doesn't matter what happens if you have this matter what happens if you have this matter what happens if you have this finishes. He says with however the fates finishes. He says with however the fates finishes. He says with however the fates may play that if you have this may play that if you have this may play that if you have this shield to guard you, he says you march shield to guard you, he says you march shield to guard you, he says you march always in the ranks of honor. All that can guide a man is is All that can guide a man is is that if you lose sight of it, and some that if you lose sight of it, and some that if you lose sight of it, and some people do, and maybe everyone does at people do, and maybe everyone does at people do, and maybe everyone does at some point, then it's a challenge, and some point, then it's a challenge, and some point, then it's a challenge, and then you get buffeted by the twos and then you get buffeted by the twos and then you get buffeted by the twos and fros of the waves of popular fros of the waves of popular fros of the waves of popular opinion. But um and that's opinion. But um and that's opinion. But um and that's dangerous. But if you keep dangerous. But if you keep dangerous. But if you keep sight and hold on to what you sight and hold on to what you sight and hold on to what you believe, a million billion foes don't believe, a million billion foes don't believe, a million billion foes don't matter. Yeah, that is the path. We were matter. Yeah, that is the path. We were matter. Yeah, that is the path. We were talking offline about a great biography talking offline about a great biography talking offline about a great biography of of of Churchill. Uh Churchill himself made Churchill. Uh Churchill himself made Churchill. Uh Churchill himself made mistakes and admitted the mistakes and mistakes and admitted the mistakes and mistakes and admitted the mistakes and was we can even say was proud of the was we can even say was proud of the was we can even say was proud of the mistakes. I mean, learn from them. Learn mistakes. I mean, learn from them. Learn mistakes. I mean, learn from them. Learn from them. That's all the best you could from them. That's all the best you could from them. That's all the best you could do. The worst you could probably do is do. The worst you could probably do is do. The worst you could probably do is being afraid of making mistakes. That's being afraid of making mistakes. That's being afraid of making mistakes. That's what TR famous said about them in the what TR famous said about them in the what TR famous said about them in the man in the arena speech.

man in the arena speech. man in the arena speech. TR. Yeah. Ah, the old TR. Those two have TR. Yeah. Ah, the old TR. Those two have TR. Yeah. Ah, the old TR. Those two have made quite a few mistakes, but are in made quite a few mistakes, but are in made quite a few mistakes, but are in the end some of the greatest humans ever the end some of the greatest humans ever the end some of the greatest humans ever created. Norm McDonald, created. Norm McDonald, created. Norm McDonald, Churchill, and TM. Churchill, and TM. Churchill, and TM. I think we did it before coming on air. I think we did it before coming on air. I think we did it before coming on air. Oh, before coming on air. Yeah. Well, Oh, before coming on air. Yeah. Well, Oh, before coming on air. Yeah. Well, he's always an everywhere in the in the he's always an everywhere in the in the he's always an everywhere in the in the air around air around air around us. One of the one of the great us. One of the one of the great us. One of the one of the great comedians. Um, all right. What gives you comedians. Um, all right. What gives you comedians. Um, all right. What gives you hope about this whole thing we have hope about this whole thing we have hope about this whole thing we have going going going on, human civilization? on, human civilization? on, human civilization? you've uh been covering some of the you've uh been covering some of the you've uh been covering some of the darker aspects, the madness of crowds, darker aspects, the madness of crowds, darker aspects, the madness of crowds, the madness of geopolitics, the madness the madness of geopolitics, the madness the madness of geopolitics, the madness of wars. Sometimes when the sun shines of wars. Sometimes when the sun shines of wars. Sometimes when the sun shines through the clouds and and there's a through the clouds and and there's a through the clouds and and there's a smile on Douglas Murray's face, what's smile on Douglas Murray's face, what's smile on Douglas Murray's face, what's the source of the smile? The the the source of the smile? The the the source of the smile? The the warmth. Endless numbers of warmth. Endless numbers of warmth. Endless numbers of things. Endless numbers of things. I get things. Endless numbers of things. I get things. Endless numbers of things. I get I get enormous I get enormous I get enormous encouragement from smart young people encouragement from smart young people encouragement from smart young people actually. That's one of the way that's actually. That's one of the way that's actually. That's one of the way that's just the best thing ever.

just the best thing ever. just the best thing ever. Um I was in Kiev the other week and I Um I was in Kiev the other week and I Um I was in Kiev the other week and I was asked to speak to students at the was asked to speak to students at the was asked to speak to students at the university and irrespective of the university and irrespective of the university and irrespective of the rather you know tricky situation that rather you know tricky situation that rather you know tricky situation that they are in. It's just great to, as you they are in. It's just great to, as you they are in. It's just great to, as you know, to speak to a room full of know, to speak to a room full of know, to speak to a room full of students about things and then hang students about things and then hang students about things and then hang around afterwards and just answer all around afterwards and just answer all around afterwards and just answer all the questions you can and hear from them the questions you can and hear from them the questions you can and hear from them about their lives and what they want to about their lives and what they want to about their lives and what they want to do and remembering what you were like at do and remembering what you were like at do and remembering what you were like at their age and their age and their age and how goofy you were and how much you were how goofy you were and how much you were how goofy you were and how much you were going to get wrong and how much, you going to get wrong and how much, you going to get wrong and how much, you know, you had to learn and how much you know, you had to learn and how much you know, you had to learn and how much you were going to enjoy it and and seeing were going to enjoy it and and seeing were going to enjoy it and and seeing the the opportunities they have in front the the opportunities they have in front the the opportunities they have in front of them if if things go right and and uh of them if if things go right and and uh of them if if things go right and and uh just smart young people giving enormous just smart young people giving enormous just smart young people giving enormous encouragement all the time. It's it's encouragement all the time. It's it's encouragement all the time. It's it's that's the best thing. I mean, it's just that's the best thing. I mean, it's just that's the best thing. I mean, it's just yeah, they're uh you can see endless yeah, they're uh you can see endless yeah, they're uh you can see endless possibility in their eyes and there's uh possibility in their eyes and there's uh possibility in their eyes and there's uh they're not like burdened by they're not like burdened by they're not like burdened by um let's say uh the cynicism that builds um let's say uh the cynicism that builds um let's say uh the cynicism that builds up. Even the cynicism though, I mean, up. Even the cynicism though, I mean, up. Even the cynicism though, I mean, you can resist that. I mean I've got you can resist that. I mean I've got you can resist that. I mean I've got quite a deep wellspring of it but I mean quite a deep wellspring of it but I mean quite a deep wellspring of it but I mean you can't only fall into that because you can't only fall into that because you can't only fall into that because there's so much else it doesn't cover there's so much else it doesn't cover there's so much else it doesn't cover it' be like spending your life being it' be like spending your life being it' be like spending your life being ironic you know ironic you know ironic you know [Laughter] [Laughter] [Laughter] uh so that said you have seen a lot of

uh so that said you have seen a lot of uh so that said you have seen a lot of war especially recently and directly war especially recently and directly war especially recently and directly Ukraine Israel Ukraine Israel Ukraine Israel Has that changed Has that changed Has that changed you? Has that dimmed some of that warmth you? Has that dimmed some of that warmth you? Has that dimmed some of that warmth and light? Uh, that's a very difficult and light? Uh, that's a very difficult and light? Uh, that's a very difficult question to question to question to answer. I don't answer. I don't answer. I don't know. Differs day to day. So sometimes know. Differs day to day. So sometimes know. Differs day to day. So sometimes there's a heaviness there because of the there's a heaviness there because of the there's a heaviness there because of the things you've seen. Yeah. I I at times things you've seen. Yeah. I I at times things you've seen. Yeah. I I at times at times you regret some going as much at times you regret some going as much at times you regret some going as much as you have to the front lines. as you have to the front lines. as you have to the front lines. No. No. No. No. One of the reasons why war is for a No. One of the reasons why war is for a No. One of the reasons why war is for a writer kind of the ultimate writer kind of the ultimate writer kind of the ultimate subject is because you subject is because you subject is because you see life weirdly at its see life weirdly at its see life weirdly at its ultimate. Very very strange. strange ultimate. Very very strange. strange ultimate. Very very strange. strange thing but you know it just it is is the thing but you know it just it is is the thing but you know it just it is is the truth. Death when it's in front of you truth. Death when it's in front of you truth. Death when it's in front of you is something is something is something which gives uh a terrible clarity to which gives uh a terrible clarity to which gives uh a terrible clarity to everything. And everything. And everything. And uh it it you see how people will love uh it it you see how people will love uh it it you see how people will love and even sometimes and even sometimes and even sometimes laugh laugh laugh more. How they'll

um there's an essay by Montaigne that's um there's an essay by Montaigne that's always on my mind. Why we weep and laugh always on my mind. Why we weep and laugh always on my mind. Why we weep and laugh at the same time. at the same time. at the same time. Uh everything's just more and Uh everything's just more and Uh everything's just more and um and people the real thing is that um and people the real thing is that um and people the real thing is that people you see the the very very best of people you see the the very very best of people you see the the very very best of people and the very worst and they're people and the very worst and they're people and the very worst and they're beside each other. There's some beside each other. There's some beside each other. There's some uh so I've gotten a bunch of chance to uh so I've gotten a bunch of chance to uh so I've gotten a bunch of chance to interact with soldiers on the front line interact with soldiers on the front line interact with soldiers on the front line in Ukraine and there is some level of in Ukraine and there is some level of in Ukraine and there is some level of like all the nicities or like all the nicities or like all the nicities or whatever it is of of uh civilian life is whatever it is of of uh civilian life is whatever it is of of uh civilian life is all stripped away. It just seems more all stripped away. It just seems more all stripped away. It just seems more honest somehow. Yes, absolutely. honest somehow. Yes, absolutely. honest somehow. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, I mean, Absolutely. Well, I mean, Absolutely. Well, I mean, I couldn't agree more and and there's I couldn't agree more and and there's I couldn't agree more and and there's the wild clarity about things. Not the wild clarity about things. Not the wild clarity about things. Not because of enemies or anything like because of enemies or anything like because of enemies or anything like that, but because of the that, but because of the that, but because of the of I joked I think I mentioned I joked of I joked I think I mentioned I joked of I joked I think I mentioned I joked about this to some Ukrainian soldiers in about this to some Ukrainian soldiers in about this to some Ukrainian soldiers in 22 because one of the cigarette and uh 22 because one of the cigarette and uh 22 because one of the cigarette and uh and and we and we stepped outside. I and and we and we stepped outside. I and and we and we stepped outside. I accompanied them outside because they accompanied them outside because they accompanied them outside because they weren't allowed to smoke weren't allowed to smoke weren't allowed to smoke indoors in this hotel which there were indoors in this hotel which there were indoors in this hotel which there were rockets rockets rockets falling. Yeah. Yeah. And I said to him, falling. Yeah. Yeah. And I said to him, falling. Yeah. Yeah. And I said to him, "Isn't it strange that fear of "Isn't it strange that fear of "Isn't it strange that fear of secondhand smoke has smoke has superseded this?" But I I don't know.

superseded this?" But I I don't know. superseded this?" But I I don't know. It's and seeing the humor in that It's and seeing the humor in that It's and seeing the humor in that uh when you're on the front line, when uh when you're on the front line, when uh when you're on the front line, when you're fighting in a war, the humor of you're fighting in a war, the humor of you're fighting in a war, the humor of that is somehow just perfectly that is somehow just perfectly that is somehow just perfectly delicious. You could just laugh all day delicious. You could just laugh all day delicious. You could just laugh all day about that. And the absurdity of life is about that. And the absurdity of life is about that. And the absurdity of life is just Yes. right there. And it's so just Yes. right there. And it's so just Yes. right there. And it's so honest and it's so beautiful. And that's honest and it's so beautiful. And that's honest and it's so beautiful. And that's why a lot of soldiers are traumatized. why a lot of soldiers are traumatized. why a lot of soldiers are traumatized. They're destroyed by war, but they also They're destroyed by war, but they also They're destroyed by war, but they also miss it. That's right. That's right. miss it. That's right. That's right. miss it. That's right. That's right. Absolutely. Oh my god. Yes. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Oh my god. Yes. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Oh my god. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. There's an intimacy to the Yes. Yes. There's an intimacy to the Yes. Yes. There's an intimacy to the whole thing. Absolutely. worse. I mean, whole thing. Absolutely. worse. I mean, whole thing. Absolutely. worse. I mean, everyone says, you never felt more everyone says, you never felt more everyone says, you never felt more alive, you alive, you alive, you know. Yeah. And I wouldn't uh I wouldn't know. Yeah. And I wouldn't uh I wouldn't know. Yeah. And I wouldn't uh I wouldn't do anything do anything do anything different. Well, I hope just like different. Well, I hope just like different. Well, I hope just like Churchill, you keep fighting the good Churchill, you keep fighting the good Churchill, you keep fighting the good fight and uh not listening to anybody fight and uh not listening to anybody fight and uh not listening to anybody and I'll try to uh learn to do the same. and I'll try to uh learn to do the same. and I'll try to uh learn to do the same. Douglas, I'm a huge fan. Thank you for Douglas, I'm a huge fan. Thank you for Douglas, I'm a huge fan. Thank you for doing this. Been a great pleasure. Right doing this. Been a great pleasure. Right doing this. Been a great pleasure. Right back at you. Thank you. back at you. Thank you. back at you. Thank you. Thanks for listening to this Thanks for listening to this Thanks for listening to this conversation with Douglas Murray. To conversation with Douglas Murray. To conversation with Douglas Murray. To support this podcast, please check out support this podcast, please check out support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description. And our sponsors in the description. And our sponsors in the description. And now, let me leave you with some words now, let me leave you with some words now, let me leave you with some words from Bertrren Russell. The problem with from Bertrren Russell. The problem with from Bertrren Russell. The problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are the world is that fools and fanatics are the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of always so certain of always so certain of themselves. And wiser people so full of themselves. And wiser people so full of themselves. And wiser people so full of doubts. Thank you for listening and hope doubts. Thank you for listening and hope doubts. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.