Neri Oxman: Biology, Art, and Science of Design & Engineering with Nature | Lex Fridman Podcast #394

whenever we start a new project it has whenever we start a new project it has to have these ingredients of to have these ingredients of to have these ingredients of simultaneous complexity it has to be simultaneous complexity it has to be simultaneous complexity it has to be novel in terms of the synthetic biology novel in terms of the synthetic biology novel in terms of the synthetic biology Material Science robotics engineering Material Science robotics engineering Material Science robotics engineering all of these elements that are all of these elements that are all of these elements that are discipline based or rooted must be novel discipline based or rooted must be novel discipline based or rooted must be novel if you can combine novelty in synthetic if you can combine novelty in synthetic if you can combine novelty in synthetic biology with a novelty in robotics with biology with a novelty in robotics with biology with a novelty in robotics with a novelty in Material Science with a a novelty in Material Science with a a novelty in Material Science with a novelty and computational design you are novelty and computational design you are novelty and computational design you are bound to create something novel the following is a conversation with the following is a conversation with Nary oxman an engineer scientist Nary oxman an engineer scientist Nary oxman an engineer scientist designer architect artist and one of the designer architect artist and one of the designer architect artist and one of the kindest most thoughtful and Brilliant kindest most thoughtful and Brilliant kindest most thoughtful and Brilliant human beings I've ever gotten to know human beings I've ever gotten to know human beings I've ever gotten to know for a long time she led the mediated for a long time she led the mediated for a long time she led the mediated Mata group at MIT that did research and Mata group at MIT that did research and Mata group at MIT that did research and built incredible stuff at the built incredible stuff at the built incredible stuff at the intersection of computational design intersection of computational design intersection of computational design digital fabrication Material Science and digital fabrication Material Science and digital fabrication Material Science and synthetic biology doing so at all scales synthetic biology doing so at all scales synthetic biology doing so at all scales from the micro scale to the building from the micro scale to the building from the micro scale to the building scale now she's continuing this work at scale now she's continuing this work at scale now she's continuing this work at a very new company for now called oxman a very new company for now called oxman a very new company for now called oxman looking to revolutionize how humans looking to revolutionize how humans looking to revolutionize how humans design and build products working with design and build products working with design and build products working with nature not against it nature not against it nature not against it on a personal note let me say that Nary on a personal note let me say that Nary on a personal note let me say that Nary has for a long time been a friend and has for a long time been a friend and has for a long time been a friend and someone who in my darker moments has someone who in my darker moments has someone who in my darker moments has always been there with a note of always been there with a note of always been there with a note of kindness and support I am forever kindness and support I am forever kindness and support I am forever grateful to her she's a brilliant and a grateful to her she's a brilliant and a grateful to her she's a brilliant and a beautiful human being oh and she also beautiful human being oh and she also beautiful human being oh and she also brought me a present War and Peace by

brought me a present War and Peace by brought me a present War and Peace by Tolstoy and meditations by Marcus Tolstoy and meditations by Marcus Tolstoy and meditations by Marcus Aurelius it doesn't get better than that Aurelius it doesn't get better than that Aurelius it doesn't get better than that this is Alex Friedman podcast to support this is Alex Friedman podcast to support this is Alex Friedman podcast to support it please check out our sponsors in the it please check out our sponsors in the it please check out our sponsors in the description and now dear friends here's description and now dear friends here's description and now dear friends here's Nery oxman Nery oxman Nery oxman let's start with the universe let's start with the universe let's start with the universe you ever think of the universe as a kind you ever think of the universe as a kind you ever think of the universe as a kind of machine that designs beautiful things of machine that designs beautiful things of machine that designs beautiful things at multiple scales I I do at multiple scales I I do at multiple scales I I do um and I think of nature in that way in um and I think of nature in that way in um and I think of nature in that way in general general general in the context of design specifically in the context of design specifically in the context of design specifically I think of nature as everything that I think of nature as everything that I think of nature as everything that isn't anthropomas everything that is not isn't anthropomas everything that is not isn't anthropomas everything that is not produced by humankind produced by humankind produced by humankind the birds and the rocks and everything the birds and the rocks and everything the birds and the rocks and everything in between fungi elephants whales do you in between fungi elephants whales do you in between fungi elephants whales do you think there's an intricate ways in which think there's an intricate ways in which think there's an intricate ways in which there's a connection between humans and there's a connection between humans and there's a connection between humans and nature yes and we're looking for it nature yes and we're looking for it nature yes and we're looking for it I think that from let's say from the I think that from let's say from the I think that from let's say from the beginning of mankind uh going back 200 beginning of mankind uh going back 200 beginning of mankind uh going back 200 000 years the products that we have 000 years the products that we have 000 years the products that we have designed have separated us from nature designed have separated us from nature designed have separated us from nature and it's ironic that the things that we and it's ironic that the things that we and it's ironic that the things that we designed and produced as humankind those designed and produced as humankind those designed and produced as humankind those are exactly the things that separated us are exactly the things that separated us are exactly the things that separated us before that we were we were totally in before that we were we were totally in before that we were we were totally in complete completely connected complete completely connected complete completely connected and I want to return to that world but and I want to return to that world but and I want to return to that world but bring the tools of engineering and bring the tools of engineering and bring the tools of engineering and computation to it yes yes I absolutely computation to it yes yes I absolutely computation to it yes yes I absolutely believe that there is so much to Nature believe that there is so much to Nature believe that there is so much to Nature that that we still have not leveraged

that that we still have not leveraged that that we still have not leveraged and we still have not understood and we and we still have not understood and we and we still have not understood and we still haven't and so much of our work is still haven't and so much of our work is still haven't and so much of our work is designed but a lot of it is science is designed but a lot of it is science is designed but a lot of it is science is unveiling and unveiling and unveiling and um and and finding new truths about the um and and finding new truths about the um and and finding new truths about the natural world that we were not aware natural world that we were not aware natural world that we were not aware before everybody talks about before everybody talks about before everybody talks about intelligence these days but I like to intelligence these days but I like to intelligence these days but I like to think that nature has think that nature has think that nature has kind of wisdom that exists Beyond kind of wisdom that exists Beyond kind of wisdom that exists Beyond intelligence or above intelligence and intelligence or above intelligence and intelligence or above intelligence and it's that wisdom that we're trying to it's that wisdom that we're trying to it's that wisdom that we're trying to tap into through technology if you think tap into through technology if you think tap into through technology if you think about humans versus nature at least in about humans versus nature at least in about humans versus nature at least in the realm at least in the context of the realm at least in the context of the realm at least in the context of definition of definition of definition of nature is everything but nature is everything but nature is everything but um anthropo mass and I'm using on Milo um anthropo mass and I'm using on Milo um anthropo mass and I'm using on Milo who is an incredible who is an incredible who is an incredible Professor from The weissmann Institute Professor from The weissmann Institute Professor from The weissmann Institute who came up with this definition of who came up with this definition of who came up with this definition of entropomas in 2020 entropomas in 2020 entropomas in 2020 when he identified that 2020 was the when he identified that 2020 was the when he identified that 2020 was the crossover year when anthropomas exceeded crossover year when anthropomas exceeded crossover year when anthropomas exceeded biomass on the planet so all of the biomass on the planet so all of the biomass on the planet so all of the design Goods that we have created and design Goods that we have created and design Goods that we have created and brought into the world now outweigh all brought into the world now outweigh all brought into the world now outweigh all of the biomass of the biomass of the biomass including of course all Plastics and including of course all Plastics and including of course all Plastics and wearables building cities but also wearables building cities but also wearables building cities but also asphalt and asphalt and asphalt and concrete all outweigh the scale of the concrete all outweigh the scale of the concrete all outweigh the scale of the biomass and actually that was a moment biomass and actually that was a moment biomass and actually that was a moment you know how in life there are moments you know how in life there are moments you know how in life there are moments that that that be a handful of moments that get you to be a handful of moments that get you to be a handful of moments that get you to course correct and and my it was a zoom

course correct and and my it was a zoom course correct and and my it was a zoom conversation with Ron and that was a conversation with Ron and that was a conversation with Ron and that was a moment for me moment for me moment for me um when I realized that that imbalance um when I realized that that imbalance um when I realized that that imbalance now we've superseded the biomass on the now we've superseded the biomass on the now we've superseded the biomass on the planet where do we go from here planet where do we go from here planet where do we go from here and you've heard the expression more and you've heard the expression more and you've heard the expression more more phones than bones and the more phones than bones and the more phones than bones and the entropomas and the antropocene entropomas and the antropocene entropomas and the antropocene um and and the technosphere sort of um and and the technosphere sort of um and and the technosphere sort of outweighing the biosphere outweighing the biosphere outweighing the biosphere um but now we are really trying to look um but now we are really trying to look um but now we are really trying to look at is is there a way at is is there a way at is is there a way in which all things technosphere are in which all things technosphere are in which all things technosphere are designed as if as if they are part of designed as if as if they are part of designed as if as if they are part of the biosphere meaning if you could today the biosphere meaning if you could today the biosphere meaning if you could today grow instead of build everything and grow instead of build everything and grow instead of build everything and anything if you could grow an iPhone if anything if you could grow an iPhone if anything if you could grow an iPhone if you could grow a car you could grow a car you could grow a car what would that world look like where what would that world look like where what would that world look like where the touring test for sort of this this the touring test for sort of this this the touring test for sort of this this kind of I call this material ecology kind of I call this material ecology kind of I call this material ecology approach but this this notion that approach but this this notion that approach but this this notion that everything material everything that you everything material everything that you everything material everything that you design in the physical universe design in the physical universe design in the physical universe can be read can be read can be read and written to as or thought of or and written to as or thought of or and written to as or thought of or perceived of as nature grown that's sort perceived of as nature grown that's sort perceived of as nature grown that's sort of the touring test for for the company of the touring test for for the company of the touring test for for the company or at least that's how I started I or at least that's how I started I or at least that's how I started I thought well grow everything that's sort thought well grow everything that's sort thought well grow everything that's sort of the slogan let's grow everything of the slogan let's grow everything of the slogan let's grow everything and if we grow everything is there a and if we grow everything is there a and if we grow everything is there a world in which driving a car is better world in which driving a car is better world in which driving a car is better for nature than a world in which there for nature than a world in which there for nature than a world in which there are no cars is there is it possible that

are no cars is there is it possible that are no cars is there is it possible that a world in which you build buildings in a world in which you build buildings in a world in which you build buildings in cities that those buildings and cities cities that those buildings and cities cities that those buildings and cities actually augment and heal nature as actually augment and heal nature as actually augment and heal nature as opposed to their absence is there a opposed to their absence is there a opposed to their absence is there a world in which we now go back to that world in which we now go back to that world in which we now go back to that kind of synergy between nature and kind of synergy between nature and kind of synergy between nature and humans where you cannot separate between humans where you cannot separate between humans where you cannot separate between grown and made and it doesn't even grown and made and it doesn't even grown and made and it doesn't even matter matter matter is there a good term for the is there a good term for the is there a good term for the intersection between biomass and intersection between biomass and intersection between biomass and entropyl mass like things that are grown entropyl mass like things that are grown entropyl mass like things that are grown yeah so in 2005 I I called this material yeah so in 2005 I I called this material yeah so in 2005 I I called this material ecology I thought what if all material ecology I thought what if all material ecology I thought what if all material all things materials would be considered all things materials would be considered all things materials would be considered part of the ecology and would have an part of the ecology and would have an part of the ecology and would have an impact a positive impact on the ecology impact a positive impact on the ecology impact a positive impact on the ecology um where we work together to help each um where we work together to help each um where we work together to help each other all things nature all things human other all things nature all things human other all things nature all things human and again you can say that that wisdom and again you can say that that wisdom and again you can say that that wisdom in nature exists in fungi many mushroom in nature exists in fungi many mushroom in nature exists in fungi many mushroom lovers always contest my thesis here and lovers always contest my thesis here and lovers always contest my thesis here and saying well we have the mushroom Network saying well we have the mushroom Network saying well we have the mushroom Network and we have the mother trees and they're and we have the mother trees and they're and we have the mother trees and they're all connected and and why don't we just all connected and and why don't we just all connected and and why don't we just simply hack into into mushrooms well simply hack into into mushrooms well simply hack into into mushrooms well first of all yes they're connected but first of all yes they're connected but first of all yes they're connected but that Network stops when there is a that Network stops when there is a that Network stops when there is a physical Gap that Network physical Gap that Network physical Gap that Network does not necessarily enable the the does not necessarily enable the the does not necessarily enable the the whales in the in the Dominican to whales in the in the Dominican to whales in the in the Dominican to connect with an olive tree in Israel to connect with an olive tree in Israel to connect with an olive tree in Israel to connect with a weeping willow in Montana connect with a weeping willow in Montana connect with a weeping willow in Montana and that's sort of a world that that I'm and that's sort of a world that that I'm and that's sort of a world that that I'm dreaming about what what does it mean dreaming about what what does it mean dreaming about what what does it mean for nature to have access for nature to have access for nature to have access to the cloud at the kind of bandwidth

to the cloud at the kind of bandwidth to the cloud at the kind of bandwidth that we're talking about sort of think that we're talking about sort of think that we're talking about sort of think neuralink for nature you know since the neuralink for nature you know since the neuralink for nature you know since the um first computer uh the um and you know um first computer uh the um and you know um first computer uh the um and you know this by heart probably better than I do this by heart probably better than I do this by heart probably better than I do but we're both MIT lifers but we're both MIT lifers but we're both MIT lifers um we today have computational power um we today have computational power um we today have computational power that is that is that is um one trillion times the power that we um one trillion times the power that we um one trillion times the power that we had in in those times we have had in in those times we have had in in those times we have 26.5 trillion times the bandwidth 26.5 trillion times the bandwidth 26.5 trillion times the bandwidth and and and 11.5 quintillion uh times the memory 11.5 quintillion uh times the memory 11.5 quintillion uh times the memory which is incredible so humankind since which is incredible so humankind since which is incredible so humankind since the since the first computer has the since the first computer has the since the first computer has approach and accessed such incredible approach and accessed such incredible approach and accessed such incredible bandwidth bandwidth bandwidth and we're asking what if nature had that and we're asking what if nature had that and we're asking what if nature had that bandwidth so beyond genes and evolution bandwidth so beyond genes and evolution bandwidth so beyond genes and evolution if there was a way to augment nature and if there was a way to augment nature and if there was a way to augment nature and allow it access to the world of bits allow it access to the world of bits allow it access to the world of bits what does nature look like now what does nature look like now what does nature look like now and can nature and can nature and can nature make decisions for herself as opposed to make decisions for herself as opposed to make decisions for herself as opposed to being guided and guarded and abused by being guided and guarded and abused by being guided and guarded and abused by by humankind so Nature has this inherent by humankind so Nature has this inherent by humankind so Nature has this inherent wisdom that you spoke to but you're also wisdom that you spoke to but you're also wisdom that you spoke to but you're also referring to augmenting that inherent referring to augmenting that inherent referring to augmenting that inherent wisdom with something like a large wisdom with something like a large wisdom with something like a large language model exactly so compress human language model exactly so compress human language model exactly so compress human knowledge but also maintain whatever is knowledge but also maintain whatever is knowledge but also maintain whatever is that intricate wisdom that allows plants that intricate wisdom that allows plants that intricate wisdom that allows plants bacteria fungi to grow incredible things bacteria fungi to grow incredible things bacteria fungi to grow incredible things at arbitrary scales adapting to whatever

at arbitrary scales adapting to whatever at arbitrary scales adapting to whatever environment and just surviving and environment and just surviving and environment and just surviving and thriving no matter where no matter how thriving no matter where no matter how thriving no matter where no matter how exactly so I think of it as large exactly so I think of it as large exactly so I think of it as large molecule models and those large molecule molecule models and those large molecule molecule models and those large molecule models of course large language models models of course large language models models of course large language models are based on the on Google and search are based on the on Google and search are based on the on Google and search engines and and so on and so forth and engines and and so on and so forth and engines and and so on and so forth and we don't have this data currently and we don't have this data currently and we don't have this data currently and part of our mission is is to do just part of our mission is is to do just part of our mission is is to do just that trying to that trying to that trying to quantify and understand quantify and understand quantify and understand the language that exists across all the language that exists across all the language that exists across all Kingdoms of Life across all five Kingdoms of Life across all five Kingdoms of Life across all five kingdoms of life kingdoms of life kingdoms of life and if we can understand that language and if we can understand that language and if we can understand that language is there a way for us to First make is there a way for us to First make is there a way for us to First make sense of it find logic in it and then sense of it find logic in it and then sense of it find logic in it and then generate certain computational tools generate certain computational tools generate certain computational tools that Empower nature to to build better that Empower nature to to build better that Empower nature to to build better crops to to increase the level of crops to to increase the level of crops to to increase the level of biodiversity in in the company we're biodiversity in in the company we're biodiversity in in the company we're constantly asking what does nature want constantly asking what does nature want constantly asking what does nature want like what what like what what like what what does nature want from a compute view if does nature want from a compute view if does nature want from a compute view if it knew it what what could Aid it and it knew it what what could Aid it and it knew it what what could Aid it and whatever the heck it's wanting to do whatever the heck it's wanting to do whatever the heck it's wanting to do yeah so we keep coming back to this yeah so we keep coming back to this yeah so we keep coming back to this answer of nature wants to increase answer of nature wants to increase answer of nature wants to increase information information information but decrease entropy right so find order but decrease entropy right so find order but decrease entropy right so find order but constantly increase the information but constantly increase the information but constantly increase the information scale and and this is true for what our scale and and this is true for what our scale and and this is true for what our work also tries to do because we're work also tries to do because we're work also tries to do because we're constantly trying to constantly trying to constantly trying to fight against the dimensional mismatch fight against the dimensional mismatch fight against the dimensional mismatch between things made and things grown

between things made and things grown between things made and things grown right and and as designers we are right and and as designers we are right and and as designers we are educated to think in X Y and Z and educated to think in X Y and Z and educated to think in X Y and Z and that's pretty much where architectural that's pretty much where architectural that's pretty much where architectural education ends and biological education education ends and biological education education ends and biological education begins so in reducing that dimensional begins so in reducing that dimensional begins so in reducing that dimensional mismatch we're missing out on mismatch we're missing out on mismatch we're missing out on opportunities to create things made as opportunities to create things made as opportunities to create things made as if grown but in the natural environment if grown but in the natural environment if grown but in the natural environment we're asking can we provide nature with we're asking can we provide nature with we're asking can we provide nature with these extra dimensions and again I I'm these extra dimensions and again I I'm these extra dimensions and again I I'm not sure what nature wants but I'm not sure what nature wants but I'm not sure what nature wants but I'm curious as to what happens when you curious as to what happens when you curious as to what happens when you provide these tools to the Natural provide these tools to the Natural provide these tools to the Natural environments obviously with environments obviously with environments obviously with responsibility obviously with control responsibility obviously with control responsibility obviously with control obviously with ethics and and moral code obviously with ethics and and moral code obviously with ethics and and moral code um but is there a world in which nature um but is there a world in which nature um but is there a world in which nature can help fix itself uh using those tools can help fix itself uh using those tools can help fix itself uh using those tools and by the way we're talking about a and by the way we're talking about a and by the way we're talking about a company called oxman yeah I'll just just company called oxman yeah I'll just just company called oxman yeah I'll just just a few words about the team yeah what a few words about the team yeah what a few words about the team yeah what kind of humans work at a place like this kind of humans work at a place like this kind of humans work at a place like this they're trying to figure out what nature they're trying to figure out what nature they're trying to figure out what nature wants you know I think they're first wants you know I think they're first wants you know I think they're first like you they're they're humanists first like you they're they're humanists first like you they're they're humanists first um they come from different disciplines um they come from different disciplines um they come from different disciplines and different disciplinary backgrounds and different disciplinary backgrounds and different disciplinary backgrounds and just as an example we have a and just as an example we have a and just as an example we have a brilliant designer who is just a brilliant designer who is just a brilliant designer who is just a mathematical genius and a computer mathematical genius and a computer mathematical genius and a computer scientist and a mechanical engineer who scientist and a mechanical engineer who scientist and a mechanical engineer who has trained has trained has trained um as a synthetic biologist and um as a synthetic biologist and um as a synthetic biologist and um and now we're hiring a microbiologist um and now we're hiring a microbiologist um and now we're hiring a microbiologist and a chemist and a chemist and a chemist architects of course and designers uh architects of course and designers uh architects of course and designers uh roboticist so it's really it's Noah's

roboticist so it's really it's Noah's roboticist so it's really it's Noah's Ark right two of each and always dancing Ark right two of each and always dancing Ark right two of each and always dancing between this line of the artificial the between this line of the artificial the between this line of the artificial the synthetic and the and the real what's synthetic and the and the real what's synthetic and the and the real what's the term for in the natural yeah the the term for in the natural yeah the the term for in the natural yeah the built in the grown nature and culture built in the grown nature and culture built in the grown nature and culture technology and biology but we're we're technology and biology but we're we're technology and biology but we're we're constantly seeking to to ask how can we constantly seeking to to ask how can we constantly seeking to to ask how can we build design and deploy products in build design and deploy products in build design and deploy products in three scales the molecular scale which three scales the molecular scale which three scales the molecular scale which I've briefly hinted to I've briefly hinted to I've briefly hinted to um and their and the molecular scale um and their and the molecular scale um and their and the molecular scale we're really looking to understand we're really looking to understand we're really looking to understand whether there is a universal language to whether there is a universal language to whether there is a universal language to Nature and what that language is and Nature and what that language is and Nature and what that language is and then build build a tool that then build build a tool that then build build a tool that um I think and dream of it is the iPhone um I think and dream of it is the iPhone um I think and dream of it is the iPhone for nature if nature had an iPhone for nature if nature had an iPhone for nature if nature had an iPhone um what would that iPhone look like does um what would that iPhone look like does um what would that iPhone look like does that mean creating an interface that mean creating an interface that mean creating an interface between nature and the computational between nature and the computational between nature and the computational tools we have exactly it goes back to tools we have exactly it goes back to tools we have exactly it goes back to that 11.5 quintillion times the that 11.5 quintillion times the that 11.5 quintillion times the bandwidth that that humans have have now bandwidth that that humans have have now bandwidth that that humans have have now arrived at and and giving that to Nature arrived at and and giving that to Nature arrived at and and giving that to Nature and seeing what you know what what and seeing what you know what what and seeing what you know what what happens there can animals actually use happens there can animals actually use happens there can animals actually use this interface to know that they need to this interface to know that they need to this interface to know that they need to run away from fire can plants use this run away from fire can plants use this run away from fire can plants use this interface to increase the rate of interface to increase the rate of interface to increase the rate of photosynthesis in the presence of a photosynthesis in the presence of a photosynthesis in the presence of a smoke cloud can they do this smoke cloud can they do this smoke cloud can they do this quote-unquote automatically without a quote-unquote automatically without a quote-unquote automatically without a kind of a top-down Brute Force policy kind of a top-down Brute Force policy kind of a top-down Brute Force policy based method that's authored and based method that's authored and based method that's authored and deployed by humans and so this work

deployed by humans and so this work deployed by humans and so this work really relates to that interface with really relates to that interface with really relates to that interface with the natural world and then there's a the natural world and then there's a the natural world and then there's a second area in the company which focuses second area in the company which focuses second area in the company which focuses on growing products on growing products on growing products and here we're focusing on a single and here we're focusing on a single and here we're focusing on a single product that starts from CO2 product that starts from CO2 product that starts from CO2 um it becomes a product it's consumed um it becomes a product it's consumed um it becomes a product it's consumed it's used it's worn by a human and then it's used it's worn by a human and then it's used it's worn by a human and then it it it um goes back to the soil and it grows an um goes back to the soil and it grows an um goes back to the soil and it grows an edible fruit plant so we're talking edible fruit plant so we're talking edible fruit plant so we're talking about from CO2 to fruit yeah it starts about from CO2 to fruit yeah it starts about from CO2 to fruit yeah it starts from CO2 and it ends with something that from CO2 and it ends with something that from CO2 and it ends with something that you can like literally eat so so the you can like literally eat so so the you can like literally eat so so the world's first entirely biodegradable world's first entirely biodegradable world's first entirely biodegradable bi-compatible by renewable product bi-compatible by renewable product bi-compatible by renewable product that's grown yes either using plant that's grown yes either using plant that's grown yes either using plant matter or using bacteria but we are matter or using bacteria but we are matter or using bacteria but we are really looking at um carbon recycling really looking at um carbon recycling really looking at um carbon recycling technologies that start with methane or technologies that start with methane or technologies that start with methane or Wastewater Wastewater Wastewater um and end with this wonderful um and end with this wonderful um and end with this wonderful Reincarnation of a an a thing that Reincarnation of a an a thing that Reincarnation of a an a thing that doesn't need to end up in a composting doesn't need to end up in a composting doesn't need to end up in a composting site but can just be thrown into the site but can just be thrown into the site but can just be thrown into the ground and grow Olive and find peace and ground and grow Olive and find peace and ground and grow Olive and find peace and there's a lot of textile based work out there's a lot of textile based work out there's a lot of textile based work out there that is focused on one single there that is focused on one single there that is focused on one single element in this long chain like oh let's element in this long chain like oh let's element in this long chain like oh let's create create create um you know leather out of mycelium or um you know leather out of mycelium or um you know leather out of mycelium or or less create textile out of cellulose or less create textile out of cellulose or less create textile out of cellulose but then it stops there and you get to but then it stops there and you get to but then it stops there and you get to assembling the shoe or the wearable and assembling the shoe or the wearable and assembling the shoe or the wearable and you and you you need a little bit of you and you you need a little bit of you and you you need a little bit of glue and you need a little bit of this glue and you need a little bit of this glue and you need a little bit of this material a little bit of that material

material a little bit of that material material a little bit of that material to to make it water resistant and then to to make it water resistant and then to to make it water resistant and then it's over so that's one thing that we're it's over so that's one thing that we're it's over so that's one thing that we're trying to solve for is how to create a trying to solve for is how to create a trying to solve for is how to create a product that is materially product that is materially product that is materially computationally robotically novel computationally robotically novel computationally robotically novel um and goes through all of these phases um and goes through all of these phases um and goes through all of these phases from the creation from this carbon from the creation from this carbon from the creation from this carbon recycling technology to recycling technology to recycling technology to um to the product to literally how do um to the product to literally how do um to the product to literally how do you think about you know Reinventing an you think about you know Reinventing an you think about you know Reinventing an industry that is focused on assembly and industry that is focused on assembly and industry that is focused on assembly and putting things together and using humans putting things together and using humans putting things together and using humans to do that can that you know can that to do that can that you know can that to do that can that you know can that happen just using robots and microbes happen just using robots and microbes happen just using robots and microbes and that's it and doing it end to end I and that's it and doing it end to end I and that's it and doing it end to end I would love to see what this Factory would love to see what this Factory would love to see what this Factory looks like and the factories is great looks like and the factories is great looks like and the factories is great too I'm I'm very very excited in October too I'm I'm very very excited in October too I'm I'm very very excited in October we'll we'll share first we'll we'll share first we'll we'll share first um first Renditions of of some of this um first Renditions of of some of this um first Renditions of of some of this working in February we'll we'll invite working in February we'll we'll invite working in February we'll we'll invite you to the lab I'm there and I've you to the lab I'm there and I've you to the lab I'm there and I've already applied I haven't heard back I already applied I haven't heard back I already applied I haven't heard back I don't understand okay uh I mean it's don't understand okay uh I mean it's don't understand okay uh I mean it's just before we get to number three it'd just before we get to number three it'd just before we get to number three it'd be amazing to just talk about what it be amazing to just talk about what it be amazing to just talk about what it takes with robotic arms or in general takes with robotic arms or in general takes with robotic arms or in general the whole process of how to build the the whole process of how to build the the whole process of how to build the life form stuff you've done in the past life form stuff you've done in the past life form stuff you've done in the past maybe stuff you're doing now how to use maybe stuff you're doing now how to use maybe stuff you're doing now how to use bacteria it's kind of synthetic biology bacteria it's kind of synthetic biology bacteria it's kind of synthetic biology how to grow stuff by leveraging bacteria how to grow stuff by leveraging bacteria how to grow stuff by leveraging bacteria is there examples from the past and yes is there examples from the past and yes is there examples from the past and yes and just take a step back over the 10 and just take a step back over the 10 and just take a step back over the 10 years of the mediated matter group which years of the mediated matter group which years of the mediated matter group which was my group at MIT was my group at MIT was my group at MIT um has sort of dedicated itself to

um has sort of dedicated itself to um has sort of dedicated itself to biobased design would be a suitcase word biobased design would be a suitcase word biobased design would be a suitcase word but sort of thinking about that Synergy but sort of thinking about that Synergy but sort of thinking about that Synergy between nature and culture biology and between nature and culture biology and between nature and culture biology and technology and we attempted to build a technology and we attempted to build a technology and we attempted to build a suite of embodiments let's say that they suite of embodiments let's say that they suite of embodiments let's say that they ended up in amazing museums and amazing ended up in amazing museums and amazing ended up in amazing museums and amazing shows and and we wrote patents and shows and and we wrote patents and shows and and we wrote patents and papers on them but they were still n of papers on them but they were still n of papers on them but they were still n of ones again the challenge as you say was ones again the challenge as you say was ones again the challenge as you say was to grow them and we classified them into to grow them and we classified them into to grow them and we classified them into fibers cellular solids biopolymers fibers cellular solids biopolymers fibers cellular solids biopolymers pigments and in each of the examples pigments and in each of the examples pigments and in each of the examples although the material was different although the material was different although the material was different sometimes we used fibers sometimes we sometimes we used fibers sometimes we sometimes we used fibers sometimes we used silk with silkworms and honey with used silk with silkworms and honey with used silk with silkworms and honey with bees and or comb as the structural bees and or comb as the structural bees and or comb as the structural material with Vespers we used material with Vespers we used material with Vespers we used synthetically engineered bacteria to synthetically engineered bacteria to synthetically engineered bacteria to produce pigments although the materials produce pigments although the materials produce pigments although the materials were different and the hero organisms were different and the hero organisms were different and the hero organisms were different the philosophy was always were different the philosophy was always were different the philosophy was always the same the approach was really an the same the approach was really an the same the approach was really an approach of computational templating approach of computational templating approach of computational templating that templating allowed us to create that templating allowed us to create that templating allowed us to create templates for the natural environment templates for the natural environment templates for the natural environment where nature and Technology could where nature and Technology could where nature and Technology could duet could dance together to create duet could dance together to create duet could dance together to create these products so just a few examples these products so just a few examples these products so just a few examples with a silk Pavilion we've had a couple with a silk Pavilion we've had a couple with a silk Pavilion we've had a couple of pavilions made of silk and the second of pavilions made of silk and the second of pavilions made of silk and the second one which was the bigger one which ended one which was the bigger one which ended one which was the bigger one which ended up at the Museum of Modern Art with my up at the Museum of Modern Art with my up at the Museum of Modern Art with my friend an incredible Mentor Paul friend an incredible Mentor Paul friend an incredible Mentor Paul Antonelli that Pavilion was six meter Antonelli that Pavilion was six meter Antonelli that Pavilion was six meter tall and it was produced by silkworms tall and it was produced by silkworms tall and it was produced by silkworms and and there we had and and there we had and and there we had um different types of templates there um different types of templates there um different types of templates there were physical templates that were

were physical templates that were were physical templates that were basically just these water-soluble basically just these water-soluble basically just these water-soluble meshes upon which the silkworms were meshes upon which the silkworms were meshes upon which the silkworms were spinning and then there were spinning and then there were spinning and then there were environmental templates which was a environmental templates which was a environmental templates which was a robot basically applying a variation of robot basically applying a variation of robot basically applying a variation of environmental conditions such as heat environmental conditions such as heat environmental conditions such as heat and light to guide the movement of the and light to guide the movement of the and light to guide the movement of the silkworm you're saying so many amazing silkworm you're saying so many amazing silkworm you're saying so many amazing things and I'm trying not to interrupt things and I'm trying not to interrupt things and I'm trying not to interrupt you but like one of the things you've you but like one of the things you've you but like one of the things you've learned by observing by doing science on learned by observing by doing science on learned by observing by doing science on these is that the environment defines these is that the environment defines these is that the environment defines the shape that they create or the shape that they create or the shape that they create or contributes or intricately plays with contributes or intricately plays with contributes or intricately plays with the shape to create and so so like and the shape to create and so so like and the shape to create and so so like and you get to that's one of the ways you you get to that's one of the ways you you get to that's one of the ways you can get to guide their work is by can get to guide their work is by can get to guide their work is by defining that environment by the way you defining that environment by the way you defining that environment by the way you said hero organism which is an epic term said hero organism which is an epic term said hero organism which is an epic term so that means like because whatever is so that means like because whatever is so that means like because whatever is the biological living system that's uh the biological living system that's uh the biological living system that's uh doing the creation and that's what's doing the creation and that's what's doing the creation and that's what's happening in Pharma and and biomaterials happening in Pharma and and biomaterials happening in Pharma and and biomaterials and by the way Precision Ag and and food and by the way Precision Ag and and food and by the way Precision Ag and and food new food design Technologies as people new food design Technologies as people new food design Technologies as people are betting on a hero organism is the are betting on a hero organism is the are betting on a hero organism is the sort of how I think of it and and and sort of how I think of it and and and sort of how I think of it and and and and the hero organism is sometimes it's and the hero organism is sometimes it's and the hero organism is sometimes it's the palm oil or or it's a it's the the palm oil or or it's a it's the the palm oil or or it's a it's the mycelium there's a lot of mushrooms mycelium there's a lot of mushrooms mycelium there's a lot of mushrooms around for good and bad and and it's around for good and bad and and it's around for good and bad and and it's cellulose or cellulose or cellulose or it's you know fake bananas or the the it's you know fake bananas or the the it's you know fake bananas or the the Workhorse E coli but these hero Workhorse E coli but these hero Workhorse E coli but these hero organisms are being vetted on as like organisms are being vetted on as like organisms are being vetted on as like the the the what's the one answer that solves what's the one answer that solves what's the one answer that solves everything Hitchhiker's Guide 42 42 yeah everything Hitchhiker's Guide 42 42 yeah everything Hitchhiker's Guide 42 42 yeah these are sort of the 42s of of you know these are sort of the 42s of of you know these are sort of the 42s of of you know of the enchanted new universe and back

of the enchanted new universe and back of the enchanted new universe and back at MIT we said instead of betting on all at MIT we said instead of betting on all at MIT we said instead of betting on all of these organisms of these organisms of these organisms let's approach them as almost like let's approach them as almost like let's approach them as almost like movement in a symphony and let's kind of movement in a symphony and let's kind of movement in a symphony and let's kind of lean into lean into lean into what we can learn from each of these what we can learn from each of these what we can learn from each of these organisms in the context of building a organisms in the context of building a organisms in the context of building a project in an architectural scale and project in an architectural scale and project in an architectural scale and those usually were Pavilions and then those usually were Pavilions and then those usually were Pavilions and then the competition of templating is the way the competition of templating is the way the competition of templating is the way you guide the work of this how many did you guide the work of this how many did you guide the work of this how many did you say 17 000 17 you say 17 000 17 you say 17 000 17 532 so each of these silkworms threads 532 so each of these silkworms threads 532 so each of these silkworms threads are about you know one one mile are about you know one one mile are about you know one one mile um in distance and and and they're um in distance and and and they're um in distance and and and they're they're beautiful and when and just they're beautiful and when and just they're beautiful and when and just thinking about the amount of material thinking about the amount of material thinking about the amount of material you know it's a bit like thinking about you know it's a bit like thinking about you know it's a bit like thinking about them you know the the length of them you know the the length of them you know the the length of capillary capillary capillary vessels that grow in your belly when vessels that grow in your belly when vessels that grow in your belly when you're pregnant to feed that incredible you're pregnant to feed that incredible you're pregnant to feed that incredible new life form new life form new life form um it's just nature is amazing but back um it's just nature is amazing but back um it's just nature is amazing but back to the silkworms I think I had three to the silkworms I think I had three to the silkworms I think I had three months months months um to build this incredible Pavilion but um to build this incredible Pavilion but um to build this incredible Pavilion but um we couldn't figure out how we were um we couldn't figure out how we were um we couldn't figure out how we were thinking of emulating the process of how thinking of emulating the process of how thinking of emulating the process of how a silkworm goes about building its a silkworm goes about building its a silkworm goes about building its incredible architecture this cocoon over incredible architecture this cocoon over incredible architecture this cocoon over the period of 24 to 72 hours the period of 24 to 72 hours the period of 24 to 72 hours and it builds a cocoon basically to and it builds a cocoon basically to and it builds a cocoon basically to protect itself it's it's a beautiful protect itself it's it's a beautiful protect itself it's it's a beautiful form of architecture and it uses pretty form of architecture and it uses pretty form of architecture and it uses pretty much just two materials two chemical much just two materials two chemical much just two materials two chemical compound saracen and fibrin the saracen compound saracen and fibrin the saracen compound saracen and fibrin the saracen is sort of the glue of of the Cocoon the is sort of the glue of of the Cocoon the is sort of the glue of of the Cocoon the fibroid is the fiber base material of

fibroid is the fiber base material of fibroid is the fiber base material of the coconut through fibers and glue and the coconut through fibers and glue and the coconut through fibers and glue and that's true for so many systems in that's true for so many systems in that's true for so many systems in nature lots of fiber and glue and that nature lots of fiber and glue and that nature lots of fiber and glue and that architecture allows them to architecture allows them to architecture allows them to metamorphosize and in the process they metamorphosize and in the process they metamorphosize and in the process they vary the properties of that silk thread vary the properties of that silk thread vary the properties of that silk thread so it's stiffer or softer depending on so it's stiffer or softer depending on so it's stiffer or softer depending on where it is in the section of the Cocoon where it is in the section of the Cocoon where it is in the section of the Cocoon and so we were trying to emulate this and so we were trying to emulate this and so we were trying to emulate this robotically with a 3D printer that was robotically with a 3D printer that was robotically with a 3D printer that was six axis Kuka arm one of these baby six axis Kuka arm one of these baby six axis Kuka arm one of these baby kookas and we're trying to emulate that kookas and we're trying to emulate that kookas and we're trying to emulate that process computationally and build process computationally and build process computationally and build something very large when one of my something very large when one of my something very large when one of my students now students now students now um a brilliant Industrial Engineer um a brilliant Industrial Engineer um a brilliant Industrial Engineer roboticist on my team Marcus said well roboticist on my team Marcus said well roboticist on my team Marcus said well you know we were just playing with those you know we were just playing with those you know we were just playing with those silkworms and enjoying their presence silkworms and enjoying their presence silkworms and enjoying their presence when we realized that when we realized that when we realized that if they're placed on a desk or a if they're placed on a desk or a if they're placed on a desk or a horizontal surface they will go about horizontal surface they will go about horizontal surface they will go about creating their cocoon only the Cocoon creating their cocoon only the Cocoon creating their cocoon only the Cocoon would be flat would be flat would be flat because they're constantly looking for a because they're constantly looking for a because they're constantly looking for a vertical Post in order to use that post vertical Post in order to use that post vertical Post in order to use that post as an anchor to spin the Cocoon but in as an anchor to spin the Cocoon but in as an anchor to spin the Cocoon but in the absence of that post the absence of that post the absence of that post on surfaces that are less than 21 on surfaces that are less than 21 on surfaces that are less than 21 millimeters and flat they will spin flat millimeters and flat they will spin flat millimeters and flat they will spin flat patches and we say aha patches and we say aha patches and we say aha let's work with them to produce this let's work with them to produce this let's work with them to produce this this Dome this Dome this Dome as a set of flat patches and a silkworm as a set of flat patches and a silkworm as a set of flat patches and a silkworm mind you is a is quite an egocentric mind you is a is quite an egocentric mind you is a is quite an egocentric creature

creature creature um and actually the furthest you go you um and actually the furthest you go you um and actually the furthest you go you move forward in evolution by natural move forward in evolution by natural move forward in evolution by natural selection the more selection the more selection the more um egoism you find in creatures so when um egoism you find in creatures so when um egoism you find in creatures so when you think about termites right they the you think about termites right they the you think about termites right they the their material sophistication is is their material sophistication is is their material sophistication is is actually very primitive but they have actually very primitive but they have actually very primitive but they have incredible ability to communicate and incredible ability to communicate and incredible ability to communicate and connect with each other so if you think connect with each other so if you think connect with each other so if you think about the entire All of Me All of nature about the entire All of Me All of nature about the entire All of Me All of nature let's say all of living systems as like let's say all of living systems as like let's say all of living systems as like a matrix that runs across two axes one a matrix that runs across two axes one a matrix that runs across two axes one is material sophistication which is is material sophistication which is is material sophistication which is terribly relevant for designers and the terribly relevant for designers and the terribly relevant for designers and the other is communication other is communication other is communication um uh the the termites Ace on um uh the the termites Ace on um uh the the termites Ace on communication but their material communication but their material communication but their material sophistication is crap right it's just sophistication is crap right it's just sophistication is crap right it's just saliva and feces and some soil particles saliva and feces and some soil particles saliva and feces and some soil particles that are built to create these that are built to create these that are built to create these incredible termite Mounds at the scale incredible termite Mounds at the scale incredible termite Mounds at the scale that when compared to human skyscrapers that when compared to human skyscrapers that when compared to human skyscrapers transcend all of buildable skills uh at transcend all of buildable skills uh at transcend all of buildable skills uh at least in in terms of what we have today least in in terms of what we have today least in in terms of what we have today in architectural practice just in in architectural practice just in in architectural practice just in relative to the size of the termite but relative to the size of the termite but relative to the size of the termite but when you look at the silkworm when you look at the silkworm when you look at the silkworm the silkworm has zero connection the silkworm has zero connection the silkworm has zero connection communication across silkworms they were communication across silkworms they were communication across silkworms they were not designed to connect and communicate not designed to connect and communicate not designed to connect and communicate with each other they're they're sort of with each other they're they're sort of with each other they're they're sort of a human design species because the the a human design species because the the a human design species because the the uh the domesticated silk moth uh creates uh the domesticated silk moth uh creates uh the domesticated silk moth uh creates the Cocoon we then produce the silk of the Cocoon we then produce the silk of the Cocoon we then produce the silk of it and then it dies it and then it dies it and then it dies um so the it has dysfunctional Wings it um so the it has dysfunctional Wings it um so the it has dysfunctional Wings it cannot fly it's not so so and and that's

cannot fly it's not so so and and that's cannot fly it's not so so and and that's another problem that the sericulture another problem that the sericulture another problem that the sericulture um industry has is why did we in the um industry has is why did we in the um industry has is why did we in the first place author this organism four first place author this organism four first place author this organism four thousand years ago that is unable to fly thousand years ago that is unable to fly thousand years ago that is unable to fly and is just there and is just there and is just there um to basically live as um to basically live as um to basically live as um to serve a human need which is um to serve a human need which is um to serve a human need which is textiles and so here we were fascinated textiles and so here we were fascinated textiles and so here we were fascinated by the computational kind of biology by the computational kind of biology by the computational kind of biology dimension of silkworms but along the way dimension of silkworms but along the way dimension of silkworms but along the way by the way this is great I never get to by the way this is great I never get to by the way this is great I never get to tell the full story tell the full story tell the full story so much I always I'm always like people so much I always I'm always like people so much I always I'm always like people say oh say oh say oh paragraphs they're way too long and this paragraphs they're way too long and this paragraphs they're way too long and this is wonderful this is like heaven you're driving so many good lines but you're driving so many good lines but but but really those uh those silkworms but but really those uh those silkworms but but really those uh those silkworms are not yes they're not designed to be are not yes they're not designed to be are not yes they're not designed to be like humans right they're not designed like humans right they're not designed like humans right they're not designed to connect communicate and build things to connect communicate and build things to connect communicate and build things that are bigger than themselves through that are bigger than themselves through that are bigger than themselves through connection and communication so what connection and communication so what connection and communication so what happens when you add 17 000 of them happens when you add 17 000 of them happens when you add 17 000 of them communicating effects that's a really communicating effects that's a really communicating effects that's a really great question what happens is that at great question what happens is that at great question what happens is that at some point some point some point the templating strategies and as you the templating strategies and as you the templating strategies and as you said correctly there were geometrical said correctly there were geometrical said correctly there were geometrical templating material templating templating material templating templating material templating environmental templating chemical environmental templating chemical environmental templating chemical templating if you're using pheromones to templating if you're using pheromones to templating if you're using pheromones to guide the movement of bees guide the movement of bees guide the movement of bees in the absence of a queen where you have in the absence of a queen where you have in the absence of a queen where you have a robotic Queen a robotic Queen a robotic Queen um but whenever you have these um but whenever you have these um but whenever you have these templating strategies you have sort of templating strategies you have sort of templating strategies you have sort of control over nature right but the control over nature right but the control over nature right but the question is is there a world in which we question is is there a world in which we question is is there a world in which we can move from templating from providing

can move from templating from providing can move from templating from providing these computational these computational these computational material and immaterial physical and material and immaterial physical and material and immaterial physical and molecular platforms that guide nature molecular platforms that guide nature molecular platforms that guide nature almost like guiding a product almost almost like guiding a product almost almost like guiding a product almost like a gardener like a gardener like a gardener um to a problem or an opportunity of um to a problem or an opportunity of um to a problem or an opportunity of emergence where that biological organism emergence where that biological organism emergence where that biological organism assumes agency by virtue of accessing assumes agency by virtue of accessing assumes agency by virtue of accessing the robotic code and saying now I own the robotic code and saying now I own the robotic code and saying now I own the code I get to do what I want with the code I get to do what I want with the code I get to do what I want with this code let me show you what this this code let me show you what this this code let me show you what this Pavilion may look like or this product Pavilion may look like or this product Pavilion may look like or this product may look like and I think one of the may look like and I think one of the may look like and I think one of the exciting moments for us is when we exciting moments for us is when we exciting moments for us is when we realized that these robotic platforms realized that these robotic platforms realized that these robotic platforms that were designed initially as that were designed initially as that were designed initially as templates actually inspired if if I may templates actually inspired if if I may templates actually inspired if if I may a kind of a a kind of a a kind of a collaboration and cooperation between collaboration and cooperation between collaboration and cooperation between silkworms that are not a swarm based silkworms that are not a swarm based silkworms that are not a swarm based organism they're not like the bees on organism they're not like the bees on organism they're not like the bees on the termites they don't work together the termites they don't work together the termites they don't work together and they don't have you know social and they don't have you know social and they don't have you know social orders amongst them the queen and the orders amongst them the queen and the orders amongst them the queen and the drones Etc they're they're all this the drones Etc they're they're all this the drones Etc they're they're all this the same in a way right and and here uh what same in a way right and and here uh what same in a way right and and here uh what was so exciting for us is that these was so exciting for us is that these was so exciting for us is that these computational and Fabrication computational and Fabrication computational and Fabrication Technologies enable the silkworm to uh Technologies enable the silkworm to uh Technologies enable the silkworm to uh sort of to to kind of hop hop from from sort of to to kind of hop hop from from sort of to to kind of hop hop from from the branch in Ecology of of of worms to the branch in Ecology of of of worms to the branch in Ecology of of of worms to the branch and Ecology of maybe the branch and Ecology of maybe the branch and Ecology of maybe human-like intelligence where they could human-like intelligence where they could human-like intelligence where they could connect and communicate by virtue of connect and communicate by virtue of connect and communicate by virtue of you know feeling or rubbing against each you know feeling or rubbing against each you know feeling or rubbing against each other in in an area that was hotter or other in in an area that was hotter or other in in an area that was hotter or colder and they were so the product that

colder and they were so the product that colder and they were so the product that we got at the end the variation of we got at the end the variation of we got at the end the variation of density of fiber and the distribution of density of fiber and the distribution of density of fiber and the distribution of the fiber and the transparency the the fiber and the transparency the the fiber and the transparency the product at the end seems like it was product at the end seems like it was product at the end seems like it was produced by a swarm silk Community but produced by a swarm silk Community but produced by a swarm silk Community but of course it wasn't it's a bunch of of course it wasn't it's a bunch of of course it wasn't it's a bunch of biological agents working together to biological agents working together to biological agents working together to assemble this thing that's really really assemble this thing that's really really assemble this thing that's really really fascinating to us how can technology fascinating to us how can technology fascinating to us how can technology um um um um um um augment or enable a swarm-like behavior augment or enable a swarm-like behavior augment or enable a swarm-like behavior and creatures that have not been and creatures that have not been and creatures that have not been designed to work as swarms so how do you designed to work as swarms so how do you designed to work as swarms so how do you construct a computational template from construct a computational template from construct a computational template from which which which uh a certain kind of thing emerges so uh a certain kind of thing emerges so uh a certain kind of thing emerges so how can you predict what emerges I how can you predict what emerges I how can you predict what emerges I suppose so if you can predict it it suppose so if you can predict it it suppose so if you can predict it it doesn't count as emergence actually doesn't count as emergence actually doesn't count as emergence actually that's a deeply poetic line we can talk that's a deeply poetic line we can talk that's a deeply poetic line we can talk about it I mean it's a bit like this about it I mean it's a bit like this about it I mean it's a bit like this concentrated it doesn't count that's concentrated it doesn't count that's concentrated it doesn't count that's right right speaking of emergence right right speaking of emergence right right speaking of emergence an empowerment because we're constantly an empowerment because we're constantly an empowerment because we're constantly uh uh uh um moving between those as if they're um moving between those as if they're um moving between those as if they're equals in the on the team and one of equals in the on the team and one of equals in the on the team and one of them Kristoff shared with me a them Kristoff shared with me a them Kristoff shared with me a mathematical equation for what does it mathematical equation for what does it mathematical equation for what does it mean to empower nature and what is mean to empower nature and what is mean to empower nature and what is empowerment in nature look like empowerment in nature look like empowerment in nature look like um um um and that relates to emergence and we can and that relates to emergence and we can and that relates to emergence and we can go back to emergence in a few moments go back to emergence in a few moments go back to emergence in a few moments but I want to I want to say it so that I but I want to I want to say it so that I but I want to I want to say it so that I know that I've learned it know that I've learned it know that I've learned it and if I've learned it I can use it

and if I've learned it I can use it and if I've learned it I can use it later yeah and maybe you'll figure later yeah and maybe you'll figure later yeah and maybe you'll figure something out as you said of course something out as you said of course something out as you said of course Kristoff is the master here but but Kristoff is the master here but but Kristoff is the master here but but really really really we were thinking again what does nature we were thinking again what does nature we were thinking again what does nature want nature wants um want nature wants um want nature wants um nature wants to increase the information nature wants to increase the information nature wants to increase the information Dimension and reduce entropy Dimension and reduce entropy Dimension and reduce entropy um what do we want we kind of want the um what do we want we kind of want the um what do we want we kind of want the same thing we want more but same thing we want more but same thing we want more but um we want order right and this goes um we want order right and this goes um we want order right and this goes back to your conversation with your back to your conversation with your back to your conversation with your shavat stochastic versus deterministic shavat stochastic versus deterministic shavat stochastic versus deterministic languages or processes his definition or languages or processes his definition or languages or processes his definition or the definition he found the definition he found the definition he found um um um was that an agent is empowered was that an agent is empowered was that an agent is empowered if the entropy of the distribution of if the entropy of the distribution of if the entropy of the distribution of all of it states it's high while the all of it states it's high while the all of it states it's high while the entropy of the distribution of a single entropy of the distribution of a single entropy of the distribution of a single state given a choice given an action is state given a choice given an action is state given a choice given an action is low meaning it's that kind of uh low meaning it's that kind of uh low meaning it's that kind of uh um um um yeah Duality between opportunity like yeah Duality between opportunity like yeah Duality between opportunity like starting like this and going like this starting like this and going like this starting like this and going like this opening and closing and and this really opening and closing and and this really opening and closing and and this really I think is analogous to to human I think is analogous to to human I think is analogous to to human empowerment given uh infinite wide array empowerment given uh infinite wide array empowerment given uh infinite wide array of choices what is the choice that you of choices what is the choice that you of choices what is the choice that you make uh to make uh to make uh to you know to to enable to empower uh to you know to to enable to empower uh to you know to to enable to empower uh to provide you with with the agency that provide you with with the agency that provide you with with the agency that you need and how much is that making you need and how much is that making you need and how much is that making that choice actually control the that choice actually control the that choice actually control the trajectory of the system that's really

trajectory of the system that's really trajectory of the system that's really nice so this this applies to all the nice so this this applies to all the nice so this this applies to all the kinds of systems you're talking about kinds of systems you're talking about kinds of systems you're talking about yeah and to a human on an individual basis but or to a human on an individual basis but or a silk or more a b a silk or more a b a silk or more a b um or a microbe a microbe that has um or a microbe a microbe that has um or a microbe a microbe that has agency or by virtue of of of a template agency or by virtue of of of a template agency or by virtue of of of a template but it also applies to a community of of but it also applies to a community of of but it also applies to a community of of organisms like the bees organisms like the bees organisms like the bees um and so we've done a lot of work sort um and so we've done a lot of work sort um and so we've done a lot of work sort of moving from you've asked how to grow of moving from you've asked how to grow of moving from you've asked how to grow things so we've grown things uh using things so we've grown things uh using things so we've grown things uh using um co-fabrication where we're digitally um co-fabrication where we're digitally um co-fabrication where we're digitally fabricating with other organisms that fabricating with other organisms that fabricating with other organisms that live across the various Kingdoms of Life live across the various Kingdoms of Life live across the various Kingdoms of Life and and those were silkworms and bees and and those were silkworms and bees and and those were silkworms and bees and uh and with bees and uh and with bees and uh and with bees um which we've sent to outer space and um which we've sent to outer space and um which we've sent to outer space and we turned healthily and they were we turned healthily and they were we turned healthily and they were reproductive okay you're gonna have to reproductive okay you're gonna have to reproductive okay you're gonna have to tell that story you're gonna have to tell that story you're gonna have to tell that story you're gonna have to talk about the robotic queen and the talk about the robotic queen and the talk about the robotic queen and the pheromones come on like pheromones come on like pheromones come on like um so we've built what we called a um so we've built what we called a um so we've built what we called a synthetic apiary and the synthetic synthetic apiary and the synthetic synthetic apiary and the synthetic apiary was designed uh as an environment apiary was designed uh as an environment apiary was designed uh as an environment that was a Perpetual spring environment that was a Perpetual spring environment that was a Perpetual spring environment for the bees of Massachusetts they go on for the bees of Massachusetts they go on for the bees of Massachusetts they go on hibernation of course during the winter hibernation of course during the winter hibernation of course during the winter season season season um and then we lose 80 percent of them um and then we lose 80 percent of them um and then we lose 80 percent of them or more uh during that period we're or more uh during that period we're or more uh during that period we're thinking okay what if we created this thinking okay what if we created this thinking okay what if we created this environment where environment where environment where um before you template right before you um before you template right before you um before you template right before you can design with you have to design four can design with you have to design four can design with you have to design four right you have to create this space of right you have to create this space of right you have to create this space of mutualism space of sort of shared

mutualism space of sort of shared mutualism space of sort of shared connection between you and the organism connection between you and the organism connection between you and the organism and with bees it started as the and with bees it started as the and with bees it started as the synthetic apiary and we have proven that synthetic apiary and we have proven that synthetic apiary and we have proven that that curated environment where we that curated environment where we that curated environment where we designed the space with high levels of designed the space with high levels of designed the space with high levels of control of temperature humidity and control of temperature humidity and control of temperature humidity and light and we've proven that they were light and we've proven that they were light and we've proven that they were reproductive and alive and we realized reproductive and alive and we realized reproductive and alive and we realized wow this environment that we created can wow this environment that we created can wow this environment that we created can help augment bees in the winter season help augment bees in the winter season help augment bees in the winter season in any City around the world where where in any City around the world where where in any City around the world where where bees survive and thrive in the summer bees survive and thrive in the summer bees survive and thrive in the summer and spring seasons and could this be a and spring seasons and could this be a and spring seasons and could this be a kind of a new Urban typology an kind of a new Urban typology an kind of a new Urban typology an architectural typology of symbiosis of architectural typology of symbiosis of architectural typology of symbiosis of mutualism between organisms and humans mutualism between organisms and humans mutualism between organisms and humans where these are by the way the synthetic where these are by the way the synthetic where these are by the way the synthetic apiary was in a co-op in you know nearby apiary was in a co-op in you know nearby apiary was in a co-op in you know nearby Somerville we had you know we had robots Somerville we had you know we had robots Somerville we had you know we had robots our team you know slept there every day our team you know slept there every day our team you know slept there every day with our with our tools and machines and with our with our tools and machines and with our with our tools and machines and we made it happen and the neighbors were we made it happen and the neighbors were we made it happen and the neighbors were very happy and and they got to get a ton very happy and and they got to get a ton very happy and and they got to get a ton of Honey at the end of the winter and of Honey at the end of the winter and of Honey at the end of the winter and and those bees of course were released and those bees of course were released and those bees of course were released into the wild at the end of the winter into the wild at the end of the winter into the wild at the end of the winter Alive and Kicking so then in order to Alive and Kicking so then in order to Alive and Kicking so then in order to actually experiment with with the actually experiment with with the actually experiment with with the robotic Queen robotic Queen robotic Queen an idea or concept we had to prove an idea or concept we had to prove an idea or concept we had to prove obviously that we can create this space obviously that we can create this space obviously that we can create this space for uh for bees and then after that we for uh for bees and then after that we for uh for bees and then after that we had this amazing opportunity to send the had this amazing opportunity to send the had this amazing opportunity to send the bees to space on Blue Shepherd mission bees to space on Blue Shepherd mission bees to space on Blue Shepherd mission that is part of blue origin and we of that is part of blue origin and we of that is part of blue origin and we of course said yes we'll take a slot we course said yes we'll take a slot we course said yes we'll take a slot we said okay can we outdo NASA so NASA in

said okay can we outdo NASA so NASA in said okay can we outdo NASA so NASA in 1982 had an experiment where they sent b 1982 had an experiment where they sent b 1982 had an experiment where they sent b b's to to outer space the bees returned b's to to outer space the bees returned b's to to outer space the bees returned they were not reproductive and um they were not reproductive and um they were not reproductive and um and some of them died and and we thought and some of them died and and we thought and some of them died and and we thought well is there a way in which we can well is there a way in which we can well is there a way in which we can create a life support system almost like create a life support system almost like create a life support system almost like a small mini bio lab of a queen and her a small mini bio lab of a queen and her a small mini bio lab of a queen and her retinue retinue retinue um that would be sent in this blue um that would be sent in this blue um that would be sent in this blue origin new Shepherd Mission uh in this origin new Shepherd Mission uh in this origin new Shepherd Mission uh in this one cell and and so that's if the one cell and and so that's if the one cell and and so that's if the synthetic APO is an architectural synthetic APO is an architectural synthetic APO is an architectural project in this case this second project in this case this second project in this case this second synthetic apiary was a product it was synthetic apiary was a product it was synthetic apiary was a product it was right so from an from an architectural right so from an from an architectural right so from an from an architectural controlled environment to a product controlled environment to a product controlled environment to a product scale control environment and this bio scale control environment and this bio scale control environment and this bio lab this life support system for bees lab this life support system for bees lab this life support system for bees was designed to provide the bees with was designed to provide the bees with was designed to provide the bees with all the conditions that they needed and all the conditions that they needed and all the conditions that they needed and and we looked at that time at the and we looked at that time at the and we looked at that time at the national pheromone that the queen uses national pheromone that the queen uses national pheromone that the queen uses to guide the other bees and we looked at to guide the other bees and we looked at to guide the other bees and we looked at pheromones that are associated with a b pheromones that are associated with a b pheromones that are associated with a b and thinking of those pheromones being and thinking of those pheromones being and thinking of those pheromones being released inside the capsules that go the released inside the capsules that go the released inside the capsules that go the capsule that goes to outer space they capsule that goes to outer space they capsule that goes to outer space they returned um back to our the media lab returned um back to our the media lab returned um back to our the media lab roof and those bees were alive and roof and those bees were alive and roof and those bees were alive and kicking and reproductive and you know kicking and reproductive and you know kicking and reproductive and you know and they continue to create comb and and and they continue to create comb and and and they continue to create comb and and it ended with a beautiful nature paper it ended with a beautiful nature paper it ended with a beautiful nature paper that the team and I published together that the team and I published together that the team and I published together we gave them gold nanoparticles and we gave them gold nanoparticles and we gave them gold nanoparticles and silver nanoparticles because we were

silver nanoparticles because we were silver nanoparticles because we were interested if if bees recycle wax it was interested if if bees recycle wax it was interested if if bees recycle wax it was known known known forever that bees do not recycle the wax forever that bees do not recycle the wax forever that bees do not recycle the wax and by feeding them these gold and by feeding them these gold and by feeding them these gold nanoparticles we were able to prove that nanoparticles we were able to prove that nanoparticles we were able to prove that um that the bees actually do recycle the um that the bees actually do recycle the um that the bees actually do recycle the wax the reason I'm bringing this forward wax the reason I'm bringing this forward wax the reason I'm bringing this forward is because is because is because we don't view ourselves as designers of we don't view ourselves as designers of we don't view ourselves as designers of consumable products and and consumable products and and consumable products and and Architectural environments only but we Architectural environments only but we Architectural environments only but we love that moment where these love that moment where these love that moment where these Technologies and by the way every one of Technologies and by the way every one of Technologies and by the way every one of these projects that we created these projects that we created these projects that we created involve the creation of a new technology involve the creation of a new technology involve the creation of a new technology whether it be a glass printer or the whether it be a glass printer or the whether it be a glass printer or the spinning robot or spinning robot or spinning robot or or the or the or the um life support system for for the bee um life support system for for the bee um life support system for for the bee Colony they all involved a technology Colony they all involved a technology Colony they all involved a technology that was associated with the the project that was associated with the the project that was associated with the the project and I never ever ever want to let that and I never ever ever want to let that and I never ever ever want to let that part go because I love love technology part go because I love love technology part go because I love love technology so much so much so much um and but but also another element of um and but but also another element of um and but but also another element of this is it always these projects if this is it always these projects if this is it always these projects if they're great they reveal new knowledge they're great they reveal new knowledge they're great they reveal new knowledge about or new science about about or new science about about or new science about um the topic that that you're um the topic that that you're um the topic that that you're investigating be it you know investigating be it you know investigating be it you know silkworms or or bees or or glass that's silkworms or or bees or or glass that's silkworms or or bees or or glass that's why I say I always tell my team it why I say I always tell my team it why I say I always tell my team it should be at MoMA and the cover of should be at MoMA and the cover of should be at MoMA and the cover of nature are science at the same time we nature are science at the same time we nature are science at the same time we don't separate between the art and the don't separate between the art and the don't separate between the art and the science it's it's it's it's one of the science it's it's it's it's one of the science it's it's it's it's one of the same so as you're creating the uh the same so as you're creating the uh the same so as you're creating the uh the art you're going to learn something art you're going to learn something art you're going to learn something about these organisms or something about about these organisms or something about about these organisms or something about these materials I mean is there these materials I mean is there these materials I mean is there something that stands out to you about

something that stands out to you about something that stands out to you about these hero organisms like bees silkworms these hero organisms like bees silkworms these hero organisms like bees silkworms you mentioned E coli has its pros and you mentioned E coli has its pros and you mentioned E coli has its pros and cons this bacteria what have you learned cons this bacteria what have you learned cons this bacteria what have you learned that small or big that's interesting that small or big that's interesting that small or big that's interesting about these organisms yeah it's a about these organisms yeah it's a about these organisms yeah it's a beautiful question what have I learned beautiful question what have I learned beautiful question what have I learned I've learned that I've learned that I've learned that um um um you know uh we did we also worked with you know uh we did we also worked with you know uh we did we also worked with shrimp shells with ago how we built this shrimp shells with ago how we built this shrimp shells with ago how we built this tower on the roof of SF Momo which by tower on the roof of SF Momo which by tower on the roof of SF Momo which by um a couple of months ago and until it um a couple of months ago and until it um a couple of months ago and until it was on the roof we we've shown the was on the roof we we've shown the was on the roof we we've shown the structure completely biodegraded into structure completely biodegraded into structure completely biodegraded into then well not completely but almost then well not completely but almost then well not completely but almost completely biodegrade to the soil and completely biodegrade to the soil and completely biodegrade to the soil and um and this notion that a product or um and this notion that a product or um and this notion that a product or part an organism or part of that part an organism or part of that part an organism or part of that organism can reincarnate is very very organism can reincarnate is very very organism can reincarnate is very very moving thought to me because I moving thought to me because I moving thought to me because I want to believe that I believe in want to believe that I believe in want to believe that I believe in reincarnation I want to believe that I reincarnation I want to believe that I reincarnation I want to believe that I believe yeah that's my relationship with believe yeah that's my relationship with believe yeah that's my relationship with God I want to I want I I like to believe God I want to I want I I like to believe God I want to I want I I like to believe in believing most great things in life in believing most great things in life in believing most great things in life are second derivatives of things but are second derivatives of things but are second derivatives of things but that's part of another conversation I that's part of another conversation I that's part of another conversation I feel like that's a quote that's gonna feel like that's a quote that's gonna feel like that's a quote that's gonna take weeks to really internalize that take weeks to really internalize that take weeks to really internalize that that notion of I want you to want or I that notion of I want you to want or I that notion of I want you to want or I need you to need or need you to need or need you to need or um that that that it there's always um that that that it there's always um that that that it there's always something a deeper truth behind what is something a deeper truth behind what is something a deeper truth behind what is on the surface and so I like to go to on the surface and so I like to go to on the surface and so I like to go to the second and the second and the second and tertiary derivative of things and and

tertiary derivative of things and and tertiary derivative of things and and discover new truths about them through discover new truths about them through discover new truths about them through that but what have I learned about that but what have I learned about that but what have I learned about organisms and why don't you like E coli organisms and why don't you like E coli organisms and why don't you like E coli I like E coli and and a lot of the work I like E coli and and a lot of the work I like E coli and and a lot of the work that we've done uh was that we've done uh was that we've done uh was possible without are working on E coli possible without are working on E coli possible without are working on E coli or other Workhorse organisms like or other Workhorse organisms like or other Workhorse organisms like cyanobacteria how are bacteria used cyanobacteria how are bacteria used cyanobacteria how are bacteria used Death Masks the Death Masks so what are Death Masks the Death Masks so what are Death Masks the Death Masks so what are Death Masks so we did this project Death Masks so we did this project Death Masks so we did this project called Vespers and those were basically called Vespers and those were basically called Vespers and those were basically death masks that was said as a process death masks that was said as a process death masks that was said as a process for designing a living product what for designing a living product what for designing a living product what happens and we looked at bit I looked at happens and we looked at bit I looked at happens and we looked at bit I looked at the remember looking at Beethoven's the remember looking at Beethoven's the remember looking at Beethoven's death mask and agamemnon's death mask death mask and agamemnon's death mask death mask and agamemnon's death mask and just studying how they were created and just studying how they were created and just studying how they were created and really they were sort of and really they were sort of and really they were sort of geometrically attuned to the face of the geometrically attuned to the face of the geometrically attuned to the face of the dead and what we wanted to do is create dead and what we wanted to do is create dead and what we wanted to do is create a death mask that not was not based in a death mask that not was not based in a death mask that not was not based in the sh in was not based on the shape of the sh in was not based on the shape of the sh in was not based on the shape of of the of the wear but rather it was of the of the wear but rather it was of the of the wear but rather it was based on their legacy and their biology based on their legacy and their biology based on their legacy and their biology and maybe we could and maybe we could and maybe we could um harness a few stem cells there for um harness a few stem cells there for um harness a few stem cells there for future Generations or contain the last future Generations or contain the last future Generations or contain the last breath Lazarus which preceded Vespers breath Lazarus which preceded Vespers breath Lazarus which preceded Vespers was project where we designed a mask to was project where we designed a mask to was project where we designed a mask to contain a single breath The Last Breath contain a single breath The Last Breath contain a single breath The Last Breath of the wearer and again if I had access of the wearer and again if I had access of the wearer and again if I had access to these Technologies today I would to these Technologies today I would to these Technologies today I would totally totally totally re-incorporate my grandmother's last re-incorporate my grandmother's last re-incorporate my grandmother's last breath in in in in in a in a product so breath in in in in in a in a product so breath in in in in in a in a product so it was like an air Memento so with

it was like an air Memento so with it was like an air Memento so with Vespers we um Vespers we um Vespers we um we actually used E coli to we actually used E coli to we actually used E coli to um to to create pigmented masks masks um to to create pigmented masks masks um to to create pigmented masks masks whose pigments uh would be recreated at whose pigments uh would be recreated at whose pigments uh would be recreated at the surface of the mask and the surface of the mask and the surface of the mask and I'm skipping over a lot of content but I'm skipping over a lot of content but I'm skipping over a lot of content but basically there were 15 masks and they basically there were 15 masks and they basically there were 15 masks and they were created as three sets The Masks of were created as three sets The Masks of were created as three sets The Masks of the past the mask of the present and the the past the mask of the present and the the past the mask of the present and the mask of the future mask of the future mask of the future um The Masks there were five five and um The Masks there were five five and um The Masks there were five five and five and the mass of the past were based five and the mass of the past were based five and the mass of the past were based on on on um ornaments and they were um ornaments and they were um ornaments and they were um um um embedded with natural minerals like gold embedded with natural minerals like gold embedded with natural minerals like gold yes yes yes and we're looking at yes yes yes and we're looking at yes yes yes and we're looking at pictures of these and they're gorgeous pictures of these and they're gorgeous pictures of these and they're gorgeous yes extremely delicate and interesting yes extremely delicate and interesting yes extremely delicate and interesting fractal patterns that are symmetrical fractal patterns that are symmetrical fractal patterns that are symmetrical they look symmetrical but they're not they look symmetrical but they're not they look symmetrical but they're not this is intense this is we intended for this is intense this is we intended for this is intense this is we intended for you to be tricked and think that they're you to be tricked and think that they're you to be tricked and think that they're all symmetrical but there's all symmetrical but there's all symmetrical but there's imperfections there are imperfections by imperfections there are imperfections by imperfections there are imperfections by Design Design Design all of these all of these all of these um um um all of these forms and shapes and all of these forms and shapes and all of these forms and shapes and distribution of matter that you're distribution of matter that you're distribution of matter that you're looking at was was entirely designed looking at was was entirely designed looking at was was entirely designed using a computational program so none of using a computational program so none of using a computational program so none of it is manual it is manual it is manual um but long story short the first um but long story short the first um but long story short the first collection is about the surface of the collection is about the surface of the collection is about the surface of the mask and the second collection which mask and the second collection which mask and the second collection which you're looking at is about the volume of you're looking at is about the volume of you're looking at is about the volume of the mask and and and what happens to the

the mask and and and what happens to the the mask and and and what happens to the mask when all the colors from the mask when all the colors from the mask when all the colors from the surface yes enter the volume of the mask surface yes enter the volume of the mask surface yes enter the volume of the mask inside create pockets and channels to inside create pockets and channels to inside create pockets and channels to guide life through them guide life through them guide life through them um they were Incorporated with pigment um they were Incorporated with pigment um they were Incorporated with pigment producing living organisms and then producing living organisms and then producing living organisms and then those organisms were templated to those organisms were templated to those organisms were templated to recreate the patterns of the original recreate the patterns of the original recreate the patterns of the original death masks and so life recycles and death masks and so life recycles and death masks and so life recycles and re-biggins and so on and so forth the re-biggins and so on and so forth the re-biggins and so on and so forth the past meets the future the future meets past meets the future the future meets past meets the future the future meets the past from the surface to the volume the past from the surface to the volume the past from the surface to the volume from Death to life to death to life to from Death to life to death to life to from Death to life to death to life to death to life and that again is a death to life and that again is a death to life and that again is a recurring theme in in the projects that recurring theme in in the projects that recurring theme in in the projects that that we take on but there from a that we take on but there from a that we take on but there from a technological perspective what was technological perspective what was technological perspective what was interesting is that we embedded chemical interesting is that we embedded chemical interesting is that we embedded chemical signals in the jet in the printer and signals in the jet in the printer and signals in the jet in the printer and those chemical signals those chemical signals those chemical signals um basically interacted with the um basically interacted with the um basically interacted with the um pigment producing bacteria uh in in um pigment producing bacteria uh in in um pigment producing bacteria uh in in this case E coli that were introduced on this case E coli that were introduced on this case E coli that were introduced on the surface of the mask and those the surface of the mask and those the surface of the mask and those interactions between the chemical interactions between the chemical interactions between the chemical signals inside the resins and the signals inside the resins and the signals inside the resins and the bacteria at the surface of the mask at bacteria at the surface of the mask at bacteria at the surface of the mask at the resolution that is native to the the resolution that is native to the the resolution that is native to the printer in this case 20 microns per printer in this case 20 microns per printer in this case 20 microns per voxel allowed us to compute the exact voxel allowed us to compute the exact voxel allowed us to compute the exact patterns that we wanted to achieve and patterns that we wanted to achieve and patterns that we wanted to achieve and we thought well if we can do this with we thought well if we can do this with we thought well if we can do this with pigments can we do this with antibiotics pigments can we do this with antibiotics pigments can we do this with antibiotics if we can do this with antibiotics could if we can do this with antibiotics could if we can do this with antibiotics could we do it with with melanin and what are we do it with with melanin and what are we do it with with melanin and what are the implications again this is a the implications again this is a the implications again this is a platform technology now that we have it

platform technology now that we have it platform technology now that we have it what are the actual real world what are the actual real world what are the actual real world implications and potential applications implications and potential applications implications and potential applications for this technology and we started a new for this technology and we started a new for this technology and we started a new area of one of my students Rachel area of one of my students Rachel area of one of my students Rachel her PhD thesis uh was entire was titled her PhD thesis uh was entire was titled her PhD thesis uh was entire was titled after this new class of materials that after this new class of materials that after this new class of materials that we created through this project Vespers we created through this project Vespers we created through this project Vespers hybrid living materials hlms hybrid living materials hlms hybrid living materials hlms um and these hybrid living materials um and these hybrid living materials um and these hybrid living materials really paved the way towards a whole really paved the way towards a whole really paved the way towards a whole other set of products that we've other set of products that we've other set of products that we've designed uh like designed uh like designed uh like um like the work that we did with um like the work that we did with um like the work that we did with melanin for for the Mandela Pavilion melanin for for the Mandela Pavilion melanin for for the Mandela Pavilion that we presented at sfmoma that we presented at sfmoma that we presented at sfmoma um where again we're using the same um where again we're using the same um where again we're using the same principles of templating in this case principles of templating in this case principles of templating in this case not silkworms and not bees but we're not silkworms and not bees but we're not silkworms and not bees but we're templating bacteria at a much much templating bacteria at a much much templating bacteria at a much much um much a more finer resolution and now um much a more finer resolution and now um much a more finer resolution and now instead of templating using using a instead of templating using using a instead of templating using using a robot or templating using a printer but robot or templating using a printer but robot or templating using a printer but compute is very very much part of it and compute is very very much part of it and compute is very very much part of it and the what's nice about bacteria of course the what's nice about bacteria of course the what's nice about bacteria of course is that is that is that um from an ethical perspective I think um from an ethical perspective I think um from an ethical perspective I think there's a range right so at the end of there's a range right so at the end of there's a range right so at the end of the silk Pavilion I got an email from the silk Pavilion I got an email from the silk Pavilion I got an email from Professor in Japan who has been working Professor in Japan who has been working Professor in Japan who has been working on transgenic silk and said well if you on transgenic silk and said well if you on transgenic silk and said well if you did this this create amazing silk did this this create amazing silk did this this create amazing silk Pavilion why don't we create Pavilion why don't we create Pavilion why don't we create um um um um you know glow in the light silk um you know glow in the light silk um you know glow in the light silk dresses and and in order to create this dresses and and in order to create this dresses and and in order to create this glow in the light uh silk we need to

glow in the light uh silk we need to glow in the light uh silk we need to um you know to to to to to apply um you know to to to to to apply um you know to to to to to apply um uh genes that are taken from a spider um uh genes that are taken from a spider um uh genes that are taken from a spider to a silkworm and this is what is known to a silkworm and this is what is known to a silkworm and this is what is known as a transgenic operation and we said no as a transgenic operation and we said no as a transgenic operation and we said no and that was for us a clear decision and that was for us a clear decision and that was for us a clear decision that no we will work with these that no we will work with these that no we will work with these organisms as long as we know that what organisms as long as we know that what organisms as long as we know that what we are doing with them is not only we are doing with them is not only we are doing with them is not only better for humans but it's also better better for humans but it's also better better for humans but it's also better for them and and again just to remind for them and and again just to remind for them and and again just to remind you where you where you where um I forget the exact number but it's um I forget the exact number but it's um I forget the exact number but it's around a thousand cocoons per single around a thousand cocoons per single around a thousand cocoons per single shirt that are exterminated in in India shirt that are exterminated in in India shirt that are exterminated in in India and China and in those Seri culture and China and in those Seri culture and China and in those Seri culture industries that are being abused now yes industries that are being abused now yes industries that are being abused now yes this organism this organism was was this organism this organism was was this organism this organism was was designed to serve the human species and designed to serve the human species and designed to serve the human species and maybe we should maybe it's time you know maybe we should maybe it's time you know maybe we should maybe it's time you know to to to to to retire that you know that to to retire that you know that to to retire that you know that conception of of organisms that are conception of of organisms that are conception of of organisms that are designed for a human-centric world or designed for a human-centric world or designed for a human-centric world or human-centric set of applications I I human-centric set of applications I I human-centric set of applications I I don't feel the same way about E coli don't feel the same way about E coli don't feel the same way about E coli um I not that I'm agnostic organism um I not that I'm agnostic organism um I not that I'm agnostic organism agnostic but but still I believe there's agnostic but but still I believe there's agnostic but but still I believe there's so much for us to do on this planet with so much for us to do on this planet with so much for us to do on this planet with um with with bacteria and so in general um with with bacteria and so in general um with with bacteria and so in general Your Design principle is to uh Your Design principle is to uh Your Design principle is to uh grow cool stuff as a byproduct of the grow cool stuff as a byproduct of the grow cool stuff as a byproduct of the organism flourishing so not yes not

organism flourishing so not yes not organism flourishing so not yes not using the organism the win-win the using the organism the win-win the using the organism the win-win the Synergy a hole that's bigger than the Synergy a hole that's bigger than the Synergy a hole that's bigger than the sum of its parts it's interesting I mean sum of its parts it's interesting I mean sum of its parts it's interesting I mean it just feels like a gray area where it just feels like a gray area where it just feels like a gray area where genetic modification of an organism genetic modification of an organism genetic modification of an organism it just feels like I don't know if you it just feels like I don't know if you it just feels like I don't know if you if you genetically modified me to make if you genetically modified me to make if you genetically modified me to make me glow in the light me glow in the light me glow in the light I think you have enough of an aura all I think you have enough of an aura all I think you have enough of an aura all right thank you that was I was just right thank you that was I was just right thank you that was I was just fishing for compliments thank you I fishing for compliments thank you I fishing for compliments thank you I appreciate it so absolutely right and by appreciate it so absolutely right and by appreciate it so absolutely right and by the way the gray area is you know is the way the gray area is you know is the way the gray area is you know is where some of us like to live and and where some of us like to live and and where some of us like to live and and like to thrive and and that's okay and like to thrive and and that's okay and like to thrive and and that's okay and and thank goodness that there's so many and thank goodness that there's so many and thank goodness that there's so many of us that that like the black and white of us that that like the black and white of us that that like the black and white and that thrive in the black and white and that thrive in the black and white and that thrive in the black and white my husband is a good example for that my husband is a good example for that my husband is a good example for that well but just to clarify in this case well but just to clarify in this case well but just to clarify in this case you're also trying to thrive in the you're also trying to thrive in the you're also trying to thrive in the black and white in that you're saying black and white in that you're saying black and white in that you're saying like the silkworm is a beautiful like the silkworm is a beautiful like the silkworm is a beautiful wonderful creature let us not modify it wonderful creature let us not modify it wonderful creature let us not modify it is that the idea or is it okay to modify is that the idea or is it okay to modify is that the idea or is it okay to modify a little bit as long as we can see that a little bit as long as we can see that a little bit as long as we can see that it benefits the organism as well as the it benefits the organism as well as the it benefits the organism as well as the final creation uh so with silkworms final creation uh so with silkworms final creation uh so with silkworms absolutely let's not modify it absolutely let's not modify it absolutely let's not modify it genetically let's not modify genetically genetically let's not modify genetically genetically let's not modify genetically um um um and then some because why did we why did and then some because why did we why did and then some because why did we why did we get there to begin with four thousand we get there to begin with four thousand we get there to begin with four thousand years ago in the Silk Road and and years ago in the Silk Road and and years ago in the Silk Road and and we should never get to a point where we we should never get to a point where we we should never get to a point where we evolve life for the service of mankind evolve life for the service of mankind evolve life for the service of mankind at the risk of these wonderful creatures

at the risk of these wonderful creatures at the risk of these wonderful creatures um across the kingdoms across the um across the kingdoms across the um across the kingdoms across the kingdom of life I don't think about the kingdom of life I don't think about the kingdom of life I don't think about the same kind of ethical range same kind of ethical range same kind of ethical range um when I think about bacteria um when I think about bacteria um when I think about bacteria nevertheless bacteria are pretty nevertheless bacteria are pretty nevertheless bacteria are pretty wonderful organisms I'm moving to my wonderful organisms I'm moving to my wonderful organisms I'm moving to my second cup here second cup here second cup here as things are getting serious now as things are getting serious now as things are getting serious now bacteria are yeah for sure let's give bacteria are yeah for sure let's give bacteria are yeah for sure let's give bacteria all the love they deserve we bacteria all the love they deserve we bacteria all the love they deserve we wouldn't be here without them they were wouldn't be here without them they were wouldn't be here without them they were here for I don't know what it is like a here for I don't know what it is like a here for I don't know what it is like a billion years before anything else but billion years before anything else but billion years before anything else but in a way if you think about it they in a way if you think about it they in a way if you think about it they create the matter that we consume and create the matter that we consume and create the matter that we consume and then then then and then we reincarnate or dissolved and then we reincarnate or dissolved and then we reincarnate or dissolved into the soil and then creates an a tree into the soil and then creates an a tree into the soil and then creates an a tree and then that tree creates more bacteria and then that tree creates more bacteria and then that tree creates more bacteria and then that bacteria could I mean and then that bacteria could I mean and then that bacteria could I mean again again that's why I like to think again again that's why I like to think again again that's why I like to think about not recycling but reincarnating about not recycling but reincarnating about not recycling but reincarnating because that assumes a kind of imparting because that assumes a kind of imparting because that assumes a kind of imparting upon nature that dimension of agency and upon nature that dimension of agency and upon nature that dimension of agency and and maybe awareness but yeah lots of and maybe awareness but yeah lots of and maybe awareness but yeah lots of really interesting work happening with really interesting work happening with really interesting work happening with bacteria um directed evolution is one of them um directed evolution is one of them we're looking we're looking at directed we're looking we're looking at directed we're looking we're looking at directed Evolution so high throughput directed Evolution so high throughput directed Evolution so high throughput directed evolution of evolution of evolution of um of bacteria for the production of um of bacteria for the production of um of bacteria for the production of products and again those products can be products and again those products can be products and again those products can be a shoe um wearables biomaterials a shoe um wearables biomaterials a shoe um wearables biomaterials therapeutical Therapeutics and doing therapeutical Therapeutics and doing therapeutical Therapeutics and doing that direction computationally totally that direction computationally totally that direction computationally totally computationally obviously in in the lab computationally obviously in in the lab computationally obviously in in the lab with with with the hero organism the with with with the hero organism the with with with the hero organism the hero bacteria hero bacteria hero bacteria um and and and what's happening today in

um and and and what's happening today in um and and and what's happening today in in in in um equal microbial synthetic biology um equal microbial synthetic biology um equal microbial synthetic biology synthetic biology that lends itself to synthetic biology that lends itself to synthetic biology that lends itself to ecology and again all of these fields ecology and again all of these fields ecology and again all of these fields are coming together it's such a are coming together it's such a are coming together it's such a wonderful time to be a designer I can wonderful time to be a designer I can wonderful time to be a designer I can think of a better time to be a designer think of a better time to be a designer think of a better time to be a designer in this world in this world in this world um but with um but with um but with um High throughput directed Evolution um High throughput directed Evolution um High throughput directed Evolution and I should say that the physical space and I should say that the physical space and I should say that the physical space in our new lab will have these capsules in our new lab will have these capsules in our new lab will have these capsules which which we have designed which which we have designed which which we have designed um that are um that are um that are um that they are designed like growth um that they are designed like growth um that they are designed like growth Chambers or grow rooms Chambers or grow rooms Chambers or grow rooms um and in those Grow rooms we can um and in those Grow rooms we can um and in those Grow rooms we can basically basically basically um um um program program program um top-down environmental templating um top-down environmental templating um top-down environmental templating right top-down environmental control of right top-down environmental control of right top-down environmental control of Lights humidity light Etc so light Lights humidity light Etc so light Lights humidity light Etc so light humidity and temperature humidity and temperature humidity and temperature um while doing a bottom-up genetic um while doing a bottom-up genetic um while doing a bottom-up genetic regulation so it is a wet lab but in regulation so it is a wet lab but in regulation so it is a wet lab but in that wet lab you could do at the same that wet lab you could do at the same that wet lab you could do at the same time you know genetic genetic modulation time you know genetic genetic modulation time you know genetic genetic modulation regulation and and environmental regulation and and environmental regulation and and environmental templating and then again the idea is templating and then again the idea is templating and then again the idea is that in one of those capsules maybe we that in one of those capsules maybe we that in one of those capsules maybe we grow transparent wood and in another grow transparent wood and in another grow transparent wood and in another capsule we you know we transparent wood capsule we you know we transparent wood capsule we you know we transparent wood for architectural application another for architectural application another for architectural application another capsule we grow a shoe and in another capsule we grow a shoe and in another capsule we grow a shoe and in another capsule we look at that language you capsule we look at that language you capsule we look at that language you know large language model that we talked know large language model that we talked know large language model that we talked about and there's a particular about and there's a particular about and there's a particular technology associated with that which technology associated with that which technology associated with that which we're hoping to reveal to the world in we're hoping to reveal to the world in we're hoping to reveal to the world in February February February um and in each of those capsules is um and in each of those capsules is um and in each of those capsules is basically a high throughput basically a high throughput basically a high throughput computational environment like a

computational environment like a computational environment like a breadboard that has think of sort of a breadboard that has think of sort of a breadboard that has think of sort of a physical breadboard environment that has physical breadboard environment that has physical breadboard environment that has access to oxygen and nitrogen and CO2 access to oxygen and nitrogen and CO2 access to oxygen and nitrogen and CO2 and nutritional dispensing and these and nutritional dispensing and these and nutritional dispensing and these little capsules could be stressed little capsules could be stressed little capsules could be stressed they're sort of a an ecology in a box they're sort of a an ecology in a box they're sort of a an ecology in a box and they could be stressed to produce and they could be stressed to produce and they could be stressed to produce the food of the future or the products the food of the future or the products the food of the future or the products of the future or the construction of the future or the construction of the future or the construction materials of the future materials of the future materials of the future um food food is a very interesting one um food food is a very interesting one um food food is a very interesting one obviously because of food insecurity and obviously because of food insecurity and obviously because of food insecurity and and and the issues that we have around and and the issues that we have around and and the issues that we have around both in terms of both in terms of both in terms of food insecurity but also in terms of the food insecurity but also in terms of the food insecurity but also in terms of the future of food and what what will remain future of food and what what will remain future of food and what what will remain after we can't eat plants and animals after we can't eat plants and animals after we can't eat plants and animals anymore and all we can eat is these anymore and all we can eat is these anymore and all we can eat is these false bananas and and and and and false bananas and and and and and false bananas and and and and and um you know and insects as our protein um you know and insects as our protein um you know and insects as our protein source so there we're thinking you know source so there we're thinking you know source so there we're thinking you know can we design these capsules to stress can we design these capsules to stress can we design these capsules to stress an environment and see how that an environment and see how that an environment and see how that environment behaves think about a kind environment behaves think about a kind environment behaves think about a kind of a an ecological a a biodiversity of a an ecological a a biodiversity of a an ecological a a biodiversity chamber right a kind of a time capsule chamber right a kind of a time capsule chamber right a kind of a time capsule that is designed as a that is designed as a that is designed as a biodiversity chamber where you can biodiversity chamber where you can biodiversity chamber where you can program the exact temperature humidity program the exact temperature humidity program the exact temperature humidity and light and light and light um combination uh to emulate the um combination uh to emulate the um combination uh to emulate the environment from the past so Ohio 1981 environment from the past so Ohio 1981 environment from the past so Ohio 1981 December 31st at 5am in the morning what December 31st at 5am in the morning what December 31st at 5am in the morning what did tomatoes taste like uh to all the did tomatoes taste like uh to all the did tomatoes taste like uh to all the way in the future 200 years ago these way in the future 200 years ago these way in the future 200 years ago these are the the input the environmental are the the input the environmental are the the input the environmental inputs these are some genetic inputs these are some genetic inputs these are some genetic regulations that I'm testing and what

regulations that I'm testing and what regulations that I'm testing and what might the food of the future or the might the food of the future or the might the food of the future or the products of the future or the products of the future or the products of the future or the construction materials of the future construction materials of the future construction materials of the future um um um feel like tests like behave like Etc and feel like tests like behave like Etc and feel like tests like behave like Etc and so these capsules are designed as part so these capsules are designed as part so these capsules are designed as part of a lab that's why it's been taking us of a lab that's why it's been taking us of a lab that's why it's been taking us such a long time to get to this point such a long time to get to this point such a long time to get to this point um because we started designing them in um because we started designing them in um because we started designing them in 2019 and they're currently literally as 2019 and they're currently literally as 2019 and they're currently literally as I speak to you under construction how I speak to you under construction how I speak to you under construction how well is it understood how to do this well is it understood how to do this well is it understood how to do this dance of control in these different dance of control in these different dance of control in these different variables in order for various kinds of variables in order for various kinds of variables in order for various kinds of growth to happen it's not it's never growth to happen it's not it's never growth to happen it's not it's never been done before and these capsules have been done before and these capsules have been done before and these capsules have never been designed before so I you know never been designed before so I you know never been designed before so I you know when when when we first decided these when when when we first decided these when when when we first decided these are going to be environmental capsules are going to be environmental capsules are going to be environmental capsules people thought were crazy what are you people thought were crazy what are you people thought were crazy what are you building what are you making so the building what are you making so the building what are you making so the answer is that we don't know but we know answer is that we don't know but we know answer is that we don't know but we know that there has never been a space like that there has never been a space like that there has never been a space like this where you have basically a wet lab this where you have basically a wet lab this where you have basically a wet lab and a grow room at that resolution and a grow room at that resolution and a grow room at that resolution um that granularity uh of of of of of of um that granularity uh of of of of of of um that granularity uh of of of of of of control over organisms control over organisms control over organisms there's a reason why there is this there's a reason why there is this there's a reason why there is this incredible evolution of products in the incredible evolution of products in the incredible evolution of products in the software space software space software space um the hardware space that's a more um the hardware space that's a more um the hardware space that's a more limiting space that because of the limiting space that because of the limiting space that because of the physical infrastructure that we have to physical infrastructure that we have to physical infrastructure that we have to test and experiment with things so we test and experiment with things so we test and experiment with things so we really wanted to push on really wanted to push on really wanted to push on creating a wet lab that is novel in creating a wet lab that is novel in creating a wet lab that is novel in every possible way what could you create every possible way what could you create every possible way what could you create in it you could create the future you in it you could create the future you in it you could create the future you could create a a you could create an could create a a you could create an could create a a you could create an environment of plants talking to each

environment of plants talking to each environment of plants talking to each other with a robotic referee and the other with a robotic referee and the other with a robotic referee and the robotic referee we you know and you robotic referee we you know and you robotic referee we you know and you could you could could you could could you could set an objective function and let's say set an objective function and let's say set an objective function and let's say for for for for for the uh for for for for for the uh for for for for for the uh um transaction driven individuals in the um transaction driven individuals in the um transaction driven individuals in the world let's say the objective function world let's say the objective function world let's say the objective function is carbon sequestration and is carbon sequestration and is carbon sequestration and um and all of those plants are um and all of those plants are um and all of those plants are um um um are implemented with a gaming engine and are implemented with a gaming engine and are implemented with a gaming engine and they have this reward system right and they have this reward system right and they have this reward system right and they're constantly needing to optimize they're constantly needing to optimize they're constantly needing to optimize the way in which they carbon sequest we the way in which they carbon sequest we the way in which they carbon sequest we read out the bad guys we leave the good read out the bad guys we leave the good read out the bad guys we leave the good guys and we end up with this like ideal guys and we end up with this like ideal guys and we end up with this like ideal Ecology of carbon sequestering Heroes Ecology of carbon sequestering Heroes Ecology of carbon sequestering Heroes that connect and communicate with each that connect and communicate with each that connect and communicate with each other and once we have that model this other and once we have that model this other and once we have that model this biodiversity chamber we send it out into biodiversity chamber we send it out into biodiversity chamber we send it out into the field the field the field um and we see what happens in nature and um and we see what happens in nature and um and we see what happens in nature and that that's sort of what I'm talking that that's sort of what I'm talking that that's sort of what I'm talking about about about augmenting plants with that extra augmenting plants with that extra augmenting plants with that extra dimension of dimension of dimension of of bandwidth that they do not have and of bandwidth that they do not have and of bandwidth that they do not have and they're they're just just last week they're they're just just last week they're they're just just last week um I came across a paper um I came across a paper um I came across a paper um that discusses uh the in Vivo neurons um that discusses uh the in Vivo neurons um that discusses uh the in Vivo neurons that are that are augmented with a pong that are that are augmented with a pong that are that are augmented with a pong game and uh and in a dish they basically game and uh and in a dish they basically game and uh and in a dish they basically present sentience and the beginning of present sentience and the beginning of present sentience and the beginning of awareness which is which is wonderful awareness which is which is wonderful awareness which is which is wonderful like that that you could actually take like that that you could actually take like that that you could actually take these neurons from a mouse brain and and

these neurons from a mouse brain and and these neurons from a mouse brain and and you have the electrical circuits and the you have the electrical circuits and the you have the electrical circuits and the physiological circuits that enable uh physiological circuits that enable uh physiological circuits that enable uh these cells to connect and communicate these cells to connect and communicate these cells to connect and communicate and together arrive at Sort Of Swarm and together arrive at Sort Of Swarm and together arrive at Sort Of Swarm situation that allows them to act as a situation that allows them to act as a situation that allows them to act as a system that is not only perceived to be system that is not only perceived to be system that is not only perceived to be sentient but is actually sentient sentient but is actually sentient sentient but is actually sentient um Michael Levine calls this a gentle um Michael Levine calls this a gentle um Michael Levine calls this a gentle material material that has agency right material material that has agency right material material that has agency right so so so so this this this is of so so so so this this this is of so so so so this this this is of interest to us because this is sort of interest to us because this is sort of interest to us because this is sort of again this is emergence post templating again this is emergence post templating again this is emergence post templating you template until you don't need to you template until you don't need to you template until you don't need to template anymore because because the template anymore because because the template anymore because because the system has its own rules right what we system has its own rules right what we system has its own rules right what we don't want to happen with AGI we want to don't want to happen with AGI we want to don't want to happen with AGI we want to happen with synthetic biology what we happen with synthetic biology what we happen with synthetic biology what we don't want to happen online and software don't want to happen online and software don't want to happen online and software with language we want for it to happen with language we want for it to happen with language we want for it to happen with with bio-based materials because with with bio-based materials because with with bio-based materials because that will get us closer to growing that will get us closer to growing that will get us closer to growing things as opposed to assembly and and things as opposed to assembly and and things as opposed to assembly and and mechanically yeah putting them together mechanically yeah putting them together mechanically yeah putting them together with toxic materials and compounds if I with toxic materials and compounds if I with toxic materials and compounds if I can ask a pothead question for a second can ask a pothead question for a second can ask a pothead question for a second so you mentioned just like the silkworms so you mentioned just like the silkworms so you mentioned just like the silkworms the individualists silkworms got uh to the individualists silkworms got uh to the individualists silkworms got uh to actually learn how to collaborate or actually learn how to collaborate or actually learn how to collaborate or actually to collaborate like in a swarm actually to collaborate like in a swarm actually to collaborate like in a swarm like way you're talking about getting like way you're talking about getting like way you're talking about getting plants to communicate in some plants to communicate in some plants to communicate in some interesting way based on an objective interesting way based on an objective interesting way based on an objective function is it possible function is it possible function is it possible to have some kind of interface between to have some kind of interface between to have some kind of interface between another kind of organisms humans and another kind of organisms humans and another kind of organisms humans and nature so like a human to have a nature so like a human to have a nature so like a human to have a conversation with with a plant there

conversation with with a plant there conversation with with a plant there already is you know that when we cut already is you know that when we cut already is you know that when we cut freshly cut grass I love the smell freshly cut grass I love the smell freshly cut grass I love the smell but it's a smell of actually it's a but it's a smell of actually it's a but it's a smell of actually it's a smell of distress that the Leaves of smell of distress that the Leaves of smell of distress that the Leaves of Grass are communicating to each other so Grass are communicating to each other so Grass are communicating to each other so the grass when it's cut emits green leaf the grass when it's cut emits green leaf the grass when it's cut emits green leaf volatiles glvs and those glvs are volatiles glvs and those glvs are volatiles glvs and those glvs are basically one leaf of grass basically one leaf of grass basically one leaf of grass communicating to another Leaf of grass communicating to another Leaf of grass communicating to another Leaf of grass be careful mind you you're about to be be careful mind you you're about to be be careful mind you you're about to be cut cut cut these incredible life forms are these incredible life forms are these incredible life forms are communicating using a different language communicating using a different language communicating using a different language than ours we use language models they than ours we use language models they than ours we use language models they use molecular models at the moment where use molecular models at the moment where use molecular models at the moment where we can parse we can we can decode these we can parse we can we can decode these we can parse we can we can decode these molecular moments is when we can start molecular moments is when we can start molecular moments is when we can start having a conversation with plants now of having a conversation with plants now of having a conversation with plants now of course there is a lot of work around course there is a lot of work around course there is a lot of work around Plant neurobiology it's a real thing Plant neurobiology it's a real thing Plant neurobiology it's a real thing plants do not have a nervous system but plants do not have a nervous system but plants do not have a nervous system but they have something akin to a nervous they have something akin to a nervous they have something akin to a nervous system it has a kind of a ecological system it has a kind of a ecological system it has a kind of a ecological intelligence that is focused on a intelligence that is focused on a intelligence that is focused on a particular time scale and the time scale particular time scale and the time scale particular time scale and the time scale is very very slow slow slow time scale is very very slow slow slow time scale is very very slow slow slow time scale so it is when we can melt these time so it is when we can melt these time so it is when we can melt these time scales and and and and connect with scales and and and and connect with scales and and and and connect with these plants in terms of the content of these plants in terms of the content of these plants in terms of the content of the language in this case molecules the the language in this case molecules the the language in this case molecules the duration of the language and we can duration of the language and we can duration of the language and we can start having a conversation if not start having a conversation if not start having a conversation if not simply to understand what is happening simply to understand what is happening simply to understand what is happening in the plant kingdom Precision in the plant kingdom Precision in the plant kingdom Precision agriculture I promise to you will look agriculture I promise to you will look agriculture I promise to you will look very very very different right because very very very different right because very very very different right because right now we're using drones to take

right now we're using drones to take right now we're using drones to take photos of crops of corn that look bad photos of crops of corn that look bad photos of crops of corn that look bad and when we take that photo it's already and when we take that photo it's already and when we take that photo it's already too late but if we understand these too late but if we understand these too late but if we understand these molecular Footprints and things that molecular Footprints and things that molecular Footprints and things that they are trying to say the stress that they are trying to say the stress that they are trying to say the stress that they are trying to communicate then we they are trying to communicate then we they are trying to communicate then we could of course predict the could of course predict the could of course predict the physiological biological behavior of physiological biological behavior of physiological biological behavior of these crops both for for their own these crops both for for their own these crops both for for their own self-perpetuation but also for the the self-perpetuation but also for the the self-perpetuation but also for the the foods and and the Pharma and and the foods and and the Pharma and and the foods and and the Pharma and and the type of molecules that we're seeking to type of molecules that we're seeking to type of molecules that we're seeking to grow for the benefit of humanity and so grow for the benefit of humanity and so grow for the benefit of humanity and so these languages that we are attempting these languages that we are attempting these languages that we are attempting now to quantify and qualify will really now to quantify and qualify will really now to quantify and qualify will really help us not only better nature and help help us not only better nature and help help us not only better nature and help nature in its striving to surviving but nature in its striving to surviving but nature in its striving to surviving but also help us you know design better also help us you know design better also help us you know design better wines and uh you know and and better wines and uh you know and and better wines and uh you know and and better foods and and and better medicine and foods and and and better medicine and foods and and and better medicine and better products again across all scales better products again across all scales better products again across all scales across all applications Mains is there across all applications Mains is there across all applications Mains is there intricacies to understanding the time intricacies to understanding the time intricacies to understanding the time scales like you mentioned at which these scales like you mentioned at which these scales like you mentioned at which these communications these languages communications these languages communications these languages like operate is there something like operate is there something like operate is there something different different different which in the way humans communicate and which in the way humans communicate and which in the way humans communicate and the way plants communicate in terms of the way plants communicate in terms of the way plants communicate in terms of time remember when we started the time remember when we started the time remember when we started the conversation talking about conversation talking about conversation talking about sort of different definitions in the sort of different definitions in the sort of different definitions in the context of design and then in the context of design and then in the context of design and then in the context of being context of being context of being that question requires I think a kind of that question requires I think a kind of that question requires I think a kind of a shift a shift a shift um um um a humility that requires a kind of a a humility that requires a kind of a a humility that requires a kind of a humility towards nature understanding humility towards nature understanding humility towards nature understanding that it operates on different scales we

that it operates on different scales we that it operates on different scales we recently discovered that uh you know recently discovered that uh you know recently discovered that uh you know that the molecular footprint of a rose that the molecular footprint of a rose that the molecular footprint of a rose or of a plant in general during night or of a plant in general during night or of a plant in general during night time is different than its molecular time is different than its molecular time is different than its molecular footprint during daytime so these are footprint during daytime so these are footprint during daytime so these are circadian rhythms that are associated circadian rhythms that are associated circadian rhythms that are associated with what kind of molecules these plants with what kind of molecules these plants with what kind of molecules these plants emit emit emit um given stress stresses and given um given stress stresses and given um given stress stresses and given um you know there's a reason why um you know there's a reason why um you know there's a reason why why the Jasmine Jasmine field smells so why the Jasmine Jasmine field smells so why the Jasmine Jasmine field smells so so delicious and 4am in the morning and so delicious and 4am in the morning and so delicious and 4am in the morning and then there's like there's there's peace then there's like there's there's peace then there's like there's there's peace and rest amongst you know amongst the and rest amongst you know amongst the and rest amongst you know amongst the plants and you have to sort of tune into plants and you have to sort of tune into plants and you have to sort of tune into that that that time dimension of of the plant kingdom time dimension of of the plant kingdom time dimension of of the plant kingdom and that of course requires all this and that of course requires all this and that of course requires all this humility where in a single capsule to humility where in a single capsule to humility where in a single capsule to design a biodiversity chamber it will design a biodiversity chamber it will design a biodiversity chamber it will take years not months and definitely not take years not months and definitely not take years not months and definitely not days and to see these products and also days and to see these products and also days and to see these products and also that humility in design comes from that humility in design comes from that humility in design comes from Simply you know looking at how we are Simply you know looking at how we are Simply you know looking at how we are today as a civilization how we use an today as a civilization how we use an today as a civilization how we use an abused nature like just think of all abused nature like just think of all abused nature like just think of all these Christmas trees right these these Christmas trees right these these Christmas trees right these Christmas trees they take years to grow Christmas trees they take years to grow Christmas trees they take years to grow we use them for one night the holiest we use them for one night the holiest we use them for one night the holiest night of the year night of the year night of the year and then we let them go and think about and then we let them go and think about and then we let them go and think about in nature to design a quote-unquote in nature to design a quote-unquote in nature to design a quote-unquote product an organism spends energy and product an organism spends energy and product an organism spends energy and time and thoughtfulness and many many time and thoughtfulness and many many time and thoughtfulness and many many many years and I'm thinking about the many years and I'm thinking about the many years and I'm thinking about the Redwoods Redwoods Redwoods um to grow these channels these you know

um to grow these channels these you know um to grow these channels these you know this cellulose layers and channels and this cellulose layers and channels and this cellulose layers and channels and reach these incredible Heights takes reach these incredible Heights takes reach these incredible Heights takes sometimes hundreds of years sometimes sometimes hundreds of years sometimes sometimes hundreds of years sometimes thousands of years am I afraid of thousands of years am I afraid of thousands of years am I afraid of building a company that designs products building a company that designs products building a company that designs products in the scale of thousands of years no in the scale of thousands of years no in the scale of thousands of years no I'm not and the way of being in the I'm not and the way of being in the I'm not and the way of being in the physical world today is really not in physical world today is really not in physical world today is really not in tune with the time dimension of the tune with the time dimension of the tune with the time dimension of the natural world at all and um and and that natural world at all and um and and that natural world at all and um and and that needs to change and that's obviously needs to change and that's obviously needs to change and that's obviously very very hard to do in a community in very very hard to do in a community in very very hard to do in a community in of of human beings that is at least in of of human beings that is at least in of of human beings that is at least in the western world that is based on the western world that is based on the western world that is based on capitalism and so here the wonderful capitalism and so here the wonderful capitalism and so here the wonderful challenge that we have ahead of us is challenge that we have ahead of us is challenge that we have ahead of us is how do we impart upon the capitalist how do we impart upon the capitalist how do we impart upon the capitalist Movement we know that we need to produce Movement we know that we need to produce Movement we know that we need to produce Now Products that will enter the real Now Products that will enter the real Now Products that will enter the real world and be you know shared and used by world and be you know shared and used by world and be you know shared and used by others and still benefit the natural others and still benefit the natural others and still benefit the natural world while benefiting humans and that's world while benefiting humans and that's world while benefiting humans and that's a wonderful challenge to have so a wonderful challenge to have so a wonderful challenge to have so integrate technology with nature and integrate technology with nature and integrate technology with nature and that's a really difficult problem I see that's a really difficult problem I see that's a really difficult problem I see parallels here with another company of parallels here with another company of parallels here with another company of newer link which is newer link which is newer link which is uh is basically like you I think you uh is basically like you I think you uh is basically like you I think you mentioned neuralink for nature that their short-term products you can come their short-term products you can come up with but it's ultimately a long-term up with but it's ultimately a long-term up with but it's ultimately a long-term challenge of how do you integrate the challenge of how do you integrate the challenge of how do you integrate the machine machine machine with this creation of nature this

with this creation of nature this with this creation of nature this intricate complex creation of nature intricate complex creation of nature intricate complex creation of nature which is the human brain and then you're which is the human brain and then you're which is the human brain and then you're speaking more generally nature speaking more generally nature speaking more generally nature how every company has an image like this how every company has an image like this how every company has an image like this one single image that embodies the one single image that embodies the one single image that embodies the spirit of the company spirit of the company spirit of the company and I think for neurolink it was to me and I think for neurolink it was to me and I think for neurolink it was to me that chimpanzee playing a video game that chimpanzee playing a video game that chimpanzee playing a video game it was just unbelievable but with plants it was just unbelievable but with plants it was just unbelievable but with plants there potentially is a set of molecules there potentially is a set of molecules there potentially is a set of molecules that that that impacts or inspires I like that word the impacts or inspires I like that word the impacts or inspires I like that word the plant to plant to plant to um behave or act in a certain way and um behave or act in a certain way and um behave or act in a certain way and allows still to plan the possibility of allows still to plan the possibility of allows still to plan the possibility of deciding where it or she or he wants to deciding where it or she or he wants to deciding where it or she or he wants to go go go uh which is why our first product for uh which is why our first product for uh which is why our first product for this molecular space is going to be a this molecular space is going to be a this molecular space is going to be a functionalized fragrance functionalized fragrance functionalized fragrance so here we're thinking about the future so here we're thinking about the future so here we're thinking about the future of fragrances and the future fragrances of fragrances and the future fragrances of fragrances and the future fragrances and flavors and flavors and flavors um you know these these products are in um you know these these products are in um you know these these products are in the industry as we know it today are the industry as we know it today are the industry as we know it today are designed for totally for a human-centric designed for totally for a human-centric designed for totally for a human-centric use and use and use and um and enjoyment and Indulgence and um and enjoyment and Indulgence and um and enjoyment and Indulgence and luxury luxury luxury um they're used on the body for the sake um they're used on the body for the sake um they're used on the body for the sake of I don't know attraction and and of I don't know attraction and and of I don't know attraction and and feeling good feeling good feeling good um and smelling good and we were asking um and smelling good and we were asking um and smelling good and we were asking ourselves is there a world in which ourselves is there a world in which ourselves is there a world in which um in which a fragrance can be not a

um in which a fragrance can be not a um in which a fragrance can be not a functional fragrance because you could functional fragrance because you could functional fragrance because you could claim that all fragrances are functional claim that all fragrances are functional claim that all fragrances are functional but is there a world in which the but is there a world in which the but is there a world in which the fragrance becomes functionalized is fragrance becomes functionalized is fragrance becomes functionalized is again imparted upon or given agency to again imparted upon or given agency to again imparted upon or given agency to connect with another organism is there a connect with another organism is there a connect with another organism is there a world in which world in which world in which um you and I can go down to your garden um you and I can go down to your garden um you and I can go down to your garden and use a perfume that will interact and use a perfume that will interact and use a perfume that will interact with the Rose Garden downstairs with the Rose Garden downstairs with the Rose Garden downstairs um I've just been enamored with the um I've just been enamored with the um I've just been enamored with the statements that are being made statements that are being made statements that are being made in the media around oh this is in the media around oh this is in the media around oh this is completely biologically derived completely biologically derived completely biologically derived fragrance and it's bio-based and but fragrance and it's bio-based and but fragrance and it's bio-based and but when you look into the fragrance and you when you look into the fragrance and you when you look into the fragrance and you understand it in order to get to this understand it in order to get to this understand it in order to get to this bioderived fragrant fragrance you went bioderived fragrant fragrance you went bioderived fragrant fragrance you went through you blew through you know 10 000 through you blew through you know 10 000 through you blew through you know 10 000 10 000 bushes of rose to create five 10 000 bushes of rose to create five 10 000 bushes of rose to create five milliliters of of a rose fragrance and milliliters of of a rose fragrance and milliliters of of a rose fragrance and all these ten thousand bushes of Rose all these ten thousand bushes of Rose all these ten thousand bushes of Rose they take space they take you know water they take space they take you know water they take space they take you know water management and and so much waste um is management and and so much waste um is management and and so much waste um is this really what we want the future of this really what we want the future of this really what we want the future of our Agriculture and molecular Goods to our Agriculture and molecular Goods to our Agriculture and molecular Goods to look like and so when we did the ago look like and so when we did the ago look like and so when we did the ago Pavilion on the roof of SF Moma we Pavilion on the roof of SF Moma we Pavilion on the roof of SF Moma we calculated that for that Pavilion we had calculated that for that Pavilion we had calculated that for that Pavilion we had 40 000 calories embedded into this 40 000 calories embedded into this 40 000 calories embedded into this Pavilion that was made of shrimp shells Pavilion that was made of shrimp shells Pavilion that was made of shrimp shells and kaitizen and and kaitizen and and kaitizen and um Apple skins and and cellulose from um Apple skins and and cellulose from um Apple skins and and cellulose from tree tree pulp and we calculated that tree tree pulp and we calculated that tree tree pulp and we calculated that overall the structure had 40 000 overall the structure had 40 000 overall the structure had 40 000 calories interesting way to think about calories interesting way to think about calories interesting way to think about a structure right from the from the a structure right from the from the a structure right from the from the point of view of of calories but as you

point of view of of calories but as you point of view of of calories but as you left the gallery you saw these three left the gallery you saw these three left the gallery you saw these three clocks that were so beautifully designed clocks that were so beautifully designed clocks that were so beautifully designed by Felix on our team and these clocks by Felix on our team and these clocks by Felix on our team and these clocks measured temperature and humidity and we measured temperature and humidity and we measured temperature and humidity and we were connected them to Weather Channels were connected them to Weather Channels were connected them to Weather Channels so that we could directly so that we could directly so that we could directly um look at how the Pavilion was um look at how the Pavilion was um look at how the Pavilion was biodegrading in real time and and and in biodegrading in real time and and and in biodegrading in real time and and and in our calculations I say this long-winded our calculations I say this long-winded our calculations I say this long-winded uh description of the Pavilion to say uh description of the Pavilion to say uh description of the Pavilion to say that in the calculation we incorporated that in the calculation we incorporated that in the calculation we incorporated um you know how much electricity we used um you know how much electricity we used um you know how much electricity we used for our computers for the 3D printers for our computers for the 3D printers for our computers for the 3D printers that printed the Pavilion and you know that printed the Pavilion and you know that printed the Pavilion and you know and these were called emergy and these were called emergy and these were called emergy calculations right energy and materials calculations right energy and materials calculations right energy and materials and when you think about a product when and when you think about a product when and when you think about a product when you think about you know a shoe or a you think about you know a shoe or a you think about you know a shoe or a chair or a perfume or a building you chair or a perfume or a building you chair or a perfume or a building you don't stop at the object you want to go don't stop at the object you want to go don't stop at the object you want to go all the way to the system again instead all the way to the system again instead all the way to the system again instead of Designing objects or singular of Designing objects or singular of Designing objects or singular embodiments of a the will of the embodiments of a the will of the embodiments of a the will of the designer you're really tapping into an designer you're really tapping into an designer you're really tapping into an entire system that is interconnected and entire system that is interconnected and entire system that is interconnected and if you look at the energy budget that if you look at the energy budget that if you look at the energy budget that characterized the project characterized the project characterized the project it traverses the entire planet right it traverses the entire planet right it traverses the entire planet right some of these shrimp shells were brought some of these shrimp shells were brought some of these shrimp shells were brought from places in the world we haven't from places in the world we haven't from places in the world we haven't thought of in terms of the apples and thought of in terms of the apples and thought of in terms of the apples and the shrimp shells and the tree pop and the shrimp shells and the tree pop and the shrimp shells and the tree pop and so going back to you know going back to so going back to you know going back to so going back to you know going back to to fragrances to fragrances to fragrances um it's really really important to um it's really really important to um it's really really important to understand the product in the context of understand the product in the context of understand the product in the context of the ecological system from which it's the ecological system from which it's the ecological system from which it's sourced and and how it's designed and

sourced and and how it's designed and sourced and and how it's designed and that is the kind of thinking that is the kind of thinking that is the kind of thinking um that is not only desired but is um that is not only desired but is um that is not only desired but is required if we are to achieve Synergy required if we are to achieve Synergy required if we are to achieve Synergy between humanity and nature it's between humanity and nature it's between humanity and nature it's interesting because the system level interesting because the system level interesting because the system level thinking is almost always going to take thinking is almost always going to take thinking is almost always going to take you to the entire Earth to considering you to the entire Earth to considering you to the entire Earth to considering the entire Earth ecosystem which is why the entire Earth ecosystem which is why the entire Earth ecosystem which is why it's important to have a left brain and it's important to have a left brain and it's important to have a left brain and a right brain competing for attention you mentioned a fragrance that kind of you mentioned a fragrance that kind of sends out a message to the environment sends out a message to the environment sends out a message to the environment essentially a message in a bottle yeah a essentially a message in a bottle yeah a essentially a message in a bottle yeah a message in a bottle so like so you can message in a bottle so like so you can message in a bottle so like so you can go to a rose garden and trick the Rose go to a rose garden and trick the Rose go to a rose garden and trick the Rose Garden to think it's 4 AM Garden to think it's 4 AM Garden to think it's 4 AM essentially you could if you wanted to essentially you could if you wanted to essentially you could if you wanted to but maybe that is not trick trick is a but maybe that is not trick trick is a but maybe that is not trick trick is a bad word right Inspire but Inspire I bad word right Inspire but Inspire I bad word right Inspire but Inspire I like I I like the idea of providing like I I like the idea of providing like I I like the idea of providing nature with a choice which is why I love nature with a choice which is why I love nature with a choice which is why I love that elegant mathematical equation of that elegant mathematical equation of that elegant mathematical equation of empowerment and agency empower the uh empowerment and agency empower the uh empowerment and agency empower the uh the Rose Garden to uh to create a the Rose Garden to uh to create a the Rose Garden to uh to create a romantic moment for the uh for the romantic moment for the uh for the romantic moment for the uh for the wearer of the fragrance but now again wearer of the fragrance but now again wearer of the fragrance but now again you're you're again all of this to go you're you're again all of this to go you're you're again all of this to go back to back to that human-centric back to back to that human-centric back to back to that human-centric notion of romance but maybe there's notion of romance but maybe there's notion of romance but maybe there's another way to do romance right that another way to do romance right that another way to do romance right that that we haven't yet you know that we that we haven't yet you know that we that we haven't yet you know that we haven't yet explored and and maybe haven't yet explored and and maybe haven't yet explored and and maybe you know there's a way to tap into what you know there's a way to tap into what you know there's a way to tap into what happens to the Rose when it's dreaming happens to the Rose when it's dreaming happens to the Rose when it's dreaming assuming that plants are sentient and assuming that plants are sentient and assuming that plants are sentient and assuming that we can tap into that

assuming that we can tap into that assuming that we can tap into that sentience what can we discover about sentience what can we discover about sentience what can we discover about what what does the Rose want like what what what does the Rose want like what what what does the Rose want like what is what is it actually want and and and is what is it actually want and and and is what is it actually want and and and what does it need and what are what what what does it need and what are what what what does it need and what are what what are the Roses are the Roses are the Roses um you know um you know um you know dreams but do you think there's some dreams but do you think there's some dreams but do you think there's some correlation in terms of romance in terms correlation in terms of romance in terms correlation in terms of romance in terms of the word you sometimes use Magic of the word you sometimes use Magic of the word you sometimes use Magic is there some similarities in what is there some similarities in what is there some similarities in what humans want and what roses want and what humans want and what roses want and what humans want and what roses want and what nature wants I think so nature wants I think so nature wants I think so I think there isn't if I did not think I think there isn't if I did not think I think there isn't if I did not think so oh my goodness this would not be a so oh my goodness this would not be a so oh my goodness this would not be a nice world to live in I think nice world to live in I think nice world to live in I think we all want love we all want love we all want love I recently read this beautiful letter I recently read this beautiful letter I recently read this beautiful letter that was written by Einstein to his that was written by Einstein to his that was written by Einstein to his daughter daughter daughter um and was discovered Einstein asked his um and was discovered Einstein asked his um and was discovered Einstein asked his daughter to wait 20 years until she daughter to wait 20 years until she daughter to wait 20 years until she reveals these letters and so she did reveals these letters and so she did reveals these letters and so she did it's just one of the most beautiful it's just one of the most beautiful it's just one of the most beautiful letters I've ever read from a father to letters I've ever read from a father to letters I've ever read from a father to his daughter and the letter overall is his daughter and the letter overall is his daughter and the letter overall is imbued with a kind of a a sense of imbued with a kind of a a sense of imbued with a kind of a a sense of remorse or remorse or remorse or maybe even feelings of sadness and there maybe even feelings of sadness and there maybe even feelings of sadness and there is some kind of melancholy note in the is some kind of melancholy note in the is some kind of melancholy note in the letter uh where Einstein regrets not letter uh where Einstein regrets not letter uh where Einstein regrets not having spent enough time with his having spent enough time with his having spent enough time with his daughter having focused on you know the daughter having focused on you know the daughter having focused on you know the theory of general relativity and theory of general relativity and theory of general relativity and changing the world and then he goes on changing the world and then he goes on changing the world and then he goes on to talk about this beautiful and elegant to talk about this beautiful and elegant to talk about this beautiful and elegant equation of E equals MC square and he equation of E equals MC square and he equation of E equals MC square and he tells his daughter that he believes that

tells his daughter that he believes that tells his daughter that he believes that love is actually the force that shapes love is actually the force that shapes love is actually the force that shapes the universe because it is like gravity the universe because it is like gravity the universe because it is like gravity right it attracts people it is like right it attracts people it is like right it attracts people it is like light it brings people together and light it brings people together and light it brings people together and connects between people connects between people connects between people um and it's all empowering and and so if um and it's all empowering and and so if um and it's all empowering and and so if you multiply it by the the speed of you multiply it by the the speed of you multiply it by the the speed of light you could really change the world light you could really change the world light you could really change the world for the better and I I call me a for the better and I I call me a for the better and I I call me a romanticist I know you are too romanticist I know you are too romanticist I know you are too um which is why I so love being here I I um which is why I so love being here I I um which is why I so love being here I I believe in this I I totally and utterly believe in this I I totally and utterly believe in this I I totally and utterly um believe in in love but let me just um believe in in love but let me just um believe in in love but let me just excerpt from Einstein's letter there's excerpt from Einstein's letter there's excerpt from Einstein's letter there's an extremely powerful force that so far an extremely powerful force that so far an extremely powerful force that so far science has not found a formal science has not found a formal science has not found a formal explanation too it is a force that explanation too it is a force that explanation too it is a force that includes and governs all others and is includes and governs all others and is includes and governs all others and is even behind any phenomena operating in even behind any phenomena operating in even behind any phenomena operating in the universe and has not yet been the universe and has not yet been the universe and has not yet been identified by us this Universal force is identified by us this Universal force is identified by us this Universal force is love love love he also the last paragraph in the letter he also the last paragraph in the letter he also the last paragraph in the letter as you've mentioned I deeply regret not as you've mentioned I deeply regret not as you've mentioned I deeply regret not having been able to express what is in having been able to express what is in having been able to express what is in my heart which has quietly beaten for my heart which has quietly beaten for my heart which has quietly beaten for you all my life you all my life you all my life maybe it's too late to apologize but as maybe it's too late to apologize but as maybe it's too late to apologize but as time is relative time is relative time is relative that jokester Einstein I need to tell that jokester Einstein I need to tell that jokester Einstein I need to tell you that I love you and uh thanks to you you that I love you and uh thanks to you you that I love you and uh thanks to you I've reached the ultimate answer your I've reached the ultimate answer your I've reached the ultimate answer your father Albert Einstein yeah but that father Albert Einstein yeah but that father Albert Einstein yeah but that regret I deeply regret not having been regret I deeply regret not having been regret I deeply regret not having been able to express what is in my heart

maybe that's a universal regret maybe that's a universal regret filling your days with busyness and filling your days with busyness and filling your days with busyness and silly Pursuits and not silly Pursuits and not silly Pursuits and not sitting down and uh expressing that but sitting down and uh expressing that but sitting down and uh expressing that but it is it is it is everything it is everything it is why I everything it is everything it is why I everything it is everything it is why I love that expression and I forget who love that expression and I forget who love that expression and I forget who said this but said this but said this but I I love my daughter more than I I love my daughter more than I I love my daughter more than um Evolution required right and um Evolution required right and um Evolution required right and um I feel the same way towards um I feel the same way towards um I feel the same way towards my other half and and I feel that when my other half and and I feel that when my other half and and I feel that when you find that connection you find that connection you find that connection um everything and anything is possible um everything and anything is possible um everything and anything is possible um and it's a very very very magical um and it's a very very very magical um and it's a very very very magical [Music] [Music] [Music] um um um a magical moment so I a magical moment so I a magical moment so I I believe in love and I believe in the I believe in love and I believe in the I believe in love and I believe in the one it might be the same thing it might be a it might be the same thing it might be a different thing but let me ask you a different thing but let me ask you a different thing but let me ask you a ridiculously big philosophical uh ridiculously big philosophical uh ridiculously big philosophical uh question about beauty question about beauty question about beauty Dostoevsky said Beauty will save the Dostoevsky said Beauty will save the Dostoevsky said Beauty will save the world in the idiot one of my favorite world in the idiot one of my favorite world in the idiot one of my favorite books of his uh what is beauty to you books of his uh what is beauty to you books of his uh what is beauty to you you've created through this intersection you've created through this intersection you've created through this intersection of engineering and nature of engineering and nature of engineering and nature you have created some incredibly you have created some incredibly you have created some incredibly beautiful things what do you think is beautiful things what do you think is beautiful things what do you think is beauty that's a beautiful question that's a beautiful question maybe it is connected to the love maybe it is connected to the love maybe it is connected to the love question it is connected to the love question it is connected to the love question it is connected to the love question of course everything is question of course everything is question of course everything is connected to the love question okay

connected to the love question okay connected to the love question okay um um um to me beauty is agency to me beauty is agency to me beauty is agency to me something that has agency to me something that has agency to me something that has agency it is beautiful there is this special it is beautiful there is this special it is beautiful there is this special quote from Buckminster Fuller which I quote from Buckminster Fuller which I quote from Buckminster Fuller which I cannot remember word for word Fest I cannot remember word for word Fest I cannot remember word for word Fest I remember the concept remember the concept remember the concept which goes something like this which goes something like this which goes something like this um when I work on a problem I never um when I work on a problem I never um when I work on a problem I never think about beauty but when I'm done think about beauty but when I'm done think about beauty but when I'm done solving the problem and I look at what solving the problem and I look at what solving the problem and I look at what I've created and it's not beautiful I I've created and it's not beautiful I I've created and it's not beautiful I know that I was wrong know that I was wrong know that I was wrong okay yeah he's a kind of a an agency okay yeah he's a kind of a an agency okay yeah he's a kind of a an agency that speaks to quote unquote the that speaks to quote unquote the that speaks to quote unquote the objective function of the creation right objective function of the creation right objective function of the creation right whether for Bucky it's useless or useful whether for Bucky it's useless or useful whether for Bucky it's useless or useful so this idea of empowerment that you so this idea of empowerment that you so this idea of empowerment that you talked about yes they connected to it talked about yes they connected to it talked about yes they connected to it comes back to that yeah what's the comes back to that yeah what's the comes back to that yeah what's the difference that you hinted at between it difference that you hinted at between it difference that you hinted at between it empowerment and emergence is a emergence empowerment and emergence is a emergence empowerment and emergence is a emergence completely lacks control completely lacks control completely lacks control is it and empowerment is more is it and empowerment is more is it and empowerment is more uh is more controlled uh is more controlled uh is more controlled there's an agent making decisions is is there's an agent making decisions is is there's an agent making decisions is is there an interesting distinction there there an interesting distinction there there an interesting distinction there yes I think empowerment is a force with yes I think empowerment is a force with yes I think empowerment is a force with Direction it has directionality to it Direction it has directionality to it Direction it has directionality to it emergence emergence emergence is I believe multi-directional again is I believe multi-directional again is I believe multi-directional again that depends on the application that depends on the application that depends on the application emergence is perhaps emergence is perhaps emergence is perhaps in terms of sort of a material

in terms of sort of a material in terms of sort of a material definition is the isotropic spirit when definition is the isotropic spirit when definition is the isotropic spirit when um empowerment is at the end is a Tropic um empowerment is at the end is a Tropic um empowerment is at the end is a Tropic and counterpart and counterpart and counterpart um um um I think I think I think they overlap because I think that empowerment is a way of empowerment is a way of um um um inspiring emergence I think emergence inspiring emergence I think emergence inspiring emergence I think emergence does not happen without empowerment but does not happen without empowerment but does not happen without empowerment but empowerment can happen without emergence empowerment can happen without emergence empowerment can happen without emergence do you think of emergence as the loss of do you think of emergence as the loss of do you think of emergence as the loss of control like when you're thinking about control like when you're thinking about control like when you're thinking about these capsules and the things they these capsules and the things they these capsules and the things they create is emergence of things that is uh create is emergence of things that is uh create is emergence of things that is uh not a desirable not a desirable not a desirable conclusion I love that question because conclusion I love that question because conclusion I love that question because to some of us the loss of control is to some of us the loss of control is to some of us the loss of control is control control control in design we're used to like extreme in design we're used to like extreme in design we're used to like extreme levels of control over form and the levels of control over form and the levels of control over form and the shape of a thing and how it behaves and shape of a thing and how it behaves and shape of a thing and how it behaves and how it functions how it functions how it functions and that's something we've inherited and that's something we've inherited and that's something we've inherited from the Industrial Revolution from the Industrial Revolution from the Industrial Revolution but with nature there is this but with nature there is this but with nature there is this um um um there's this diversity that happens there's this diversity that happens there's this diversity that happens without necessarily having a reward without necessarily having a reward without necessarily having a reward function right this is good or bad function right this is good or bad function right this is good or bad things just happen and some of them things just happen and some of them things just happen and some of them happen to have wings and some of them happen to have wings and some of them happen to have wings and some of them happen to have scales and happen to have scales and happen to have scales and you know you end up with this incredible you know you end up with this incredible you know you end up with this incredible potential potential potential um for for diversity so I think the um for for diversity so I think the um for for diversity so I think the future of of design is in that soft

future of of design is in that soft future of of design is in that soft control is in the ability to design control is in the ability to design control is in the ability to design highly controlled systems that enable highly controlled systems that enable highly controlled systems that enable um that enable the loss of control and um that enable the loss of control and um that enable the loss of control and creativity is very much part of this creativity is very much part of this creativity is very much part of this because because because creativity is all about letting go creativity is all about letting go creativity is all about letting go and beginning again and beginning again and beginning again and beginning again and beginning again and beginning again beginning again beginning again beginning again and when you cannot let go you cannot be and when you cannot let go you cannot be and when you cannot let go you cannot be creative and you can't you you can't you creative and you can't you you can't you creative and you can't you you can't you can't find novelty but I think that can't find novelty but I think that can't find novelty but I think that letting go is a moment that enables letting go is a moment that enables letting go is a moment that enables empowerment agency creativity emergence empowerment agency creativity emergence empowerment agency creativity emergence and they're all connected they're sort and they're all connected they're sort and they're all connected they're sort of associate themselves with definition of associate themselves with definition of associate themselves with definition of Destiny or the inevitable of Destiny or the inevitable of Destiny or the inevitable a good friend of mine shared with me a good friend of mine shared with me a good friend of mine shared with me elegant definition of Faith which is the elegant definition of Faith which is the elegant definition of Faith which is the ratio of of who you are and and who you ratio of of who you are and and who you ratio of of who you are and and who you want to be want to be want to be ratio of who you are who you want to be ratio of who you are who you want to be ratio of who you are who you want to be exactly and that sort of ends up exactly and that sort of ends up exactly and that sort of ends up defining you yeah and those tools I defining you yeah and those tools I defining you yeah and those tools I think when when when when you let go you think when when when when you let go you think when when when when you let go you sort of find you you give peace to your sort of find you you give peace to your sort of find you you give peace to your will right to a sense of Will and and will right to a sense of Will and and will right to a sense of Will and and and so I think that's very very and so I think that's very very and so I think that's very very important important important in design but also in life in design but also in life in design but also in life she said this fate is the ratio of she said this fate is the ratio of she said this fate is the ratio of um who you are what you want to be who um who you are what you want to be who um who you are what you want to be who you want to be do you think there's you want to be do you think there's you want to be do you think there's something to this whole manifestation something to this whole manifestation something to this whole manifestation thing like focusing on a vision of what thing like focusing on a vision of what thing like focusing on a vision of what you want the world to become and in in

you want the world to become and in in you want the world to become and in in that focusing you manifest it like Paula that focusing you manifest it like Paula that focusing you manifest it like Paula Cole said in The Alchemist when you want Cole said in The Alchemist when you want Cole said in The Alchemist when you want something all the universe conspires in something all the universe conspires in something all the universe conspires in helping you to achieve it helping you to achieve it helping you to achieve it is there something to that I think so is there something to that I think so is there something to that I think so yes and I always think of you know what yes and I always think of you know what yes and I always think of you know what I do as this the culmination of energy I do as this the culmination of energy I do as this the culmination of energy information and matter and how to Direct information and matter and how to Direct information and matter and how to Direct Energy Information and matter in the Energy Information and matter in the Energy Information and matter in the design of a thing or in the design of a design of a thing or in the design of a design of a thing or in the design of a life life life I think living is very much a process of I think living is very much a process of I think living is very much a process of channeling these energies to where they channeling these energies to where they channeling these energies to where they need to go I think that the need to go I think that the need to go I think that the manifestation or part of that manifestation or part of that manifestation or part of that manifestation is the pointing to the manifestation is the pointing to the manifestation is the pointing to the Moon in order to get to the moon and and Moon in order to get to the moon and and Moon in order to get to the moon and and and that's why manifestation is also and that's why manifestation is also and that's why manifestation is also directional it has that vector quality directional it has that vector quality directional it has that vector quality to it that to it that to it that I think of agency is I think of agency is I think of agency is have you uh in your own life has there have you uh in your own life has there have you uh in your own life has there been things you've done where you kind been things you've done where you kind been things you've done where you kind of direct of direct of direct that energy information and matter in a that energy information and matter in a that energy information and matter in a way that opens up new possibilities yeah way that opens up new possibilities yeah way that opens up new possibilities yeah I mean you've also said somewhere I'm I mean you've also said somewhere I'm I mean you've also said somewhere I'm probably misquoting that uh you're probably misquoting that uh you're probably misquoting that uh you're you're you're you're you're you're you're many things you and Harry are many many things you and Harry are many many things you and Harry are many things and you become new things every things and you become new things every things and you become new things every 10 years or so oh I did say that 10 years or so oh I did say that 10 years or so oh I did say that somewhere somewhere that every decade somewhere somewhere that every decade somewhere somewhere that every decade you're sort of Switched that was an old you're sort of Switched that was an old you're sort of Switched that was an old that was a previous scenario that said that was a previous scenario that said that was a previous scenario that said that yeah I did say some time ago that that yeah I did say some time ago that that yeah I did say some time ago that you have to sort of reboot reboot every you have to sort of reboot reboot every you have to sort of reboot reboot every 10 years

10 years 10 years um to to keep creative and keep um to to keep creative and keep um to to keep creative and keep inventive and and keep fresh is there inventive and and keep fresh is there inventive and and keep fresh is there things you've done in your life which is things you've done in your life which is things you've done in your life which is kind of uh doors opened I think everything everything uh I think everything everything uh everything good I've found in my life everything good I've found in my life everything good I've found in my life has been found in that way of has been found in that way of has been found in that way of um um um letting go and suspending my sense of letting go and suspending my sense of letting go and suspending my sense of disbelief and often you will find me say disbelief and often you will find me say disbelief and often you will find me say to the team suspend your disbelief to the team suspend your disbelief to the team suspend your disbelief I don't care that this is impossible I don't care that this is impossible I don't care that this is impossible let's assume it is where does it take us let's assume it is where does it take us let's assume it is where does it take us and that suspension of disbelief is and that suspension of disbelief is and that suspension of disbelief is absolutely part and parcel of the absolutely part and parcel of the absolutely part and parcel of the creative act creative act creative act and you know and you know and you know I did so when I did so when I did so when um um um I was in medical school I was in I was in medical school I was in I was in medical school I was in Hadassah and in the Hebrew University Hadassah and in the Hebrew University Hadassah and in the Hebrew University and um and um and um I remember I left medical school for I remember I left medical school for I remember I left medical school for architecture the day my grandmother architecture the day my grandmother architecture the day my grandmother passed away passed away passed away and that was a moment of relief and that and that was a moment of relief and that and that was a moment of relief and that was a moment a door that was closing was a moment a door that was closing was a moment a door that was closing that opened other opportunities that opened other opportunities that opened other opportunities um but that of course required letting um but that of course required letting um but that of course required letting go of the great vision of becoming a go of the great vision of becoming a go of the great vision of becoming a doctor and letting go of the dream of doctor and letting go of the dream of doctor and letting go of the dream of you know being surrounded by you know being surrounded by you know being surrounded by wonderful patience and the science of wonderful patience and the science of wonderful patience and the science of medicine and the research associated medicine and the research associated medicine and the research associated with that science and letting go of that with that science and letting go of that with that science and letting go of that dream

dream dream to accomplish another to accomplish another to accomplish another um um um and and it it has happened throughout my and and it it has happened throughout my and and it it has happened throughout my life in in different ways life in in different ways life in in different ways um MIT was another experience like that um MIT was another experience like that um MIT was another experience like that where people pointed at me as you know where people pointed at me as you know where people pointed at me as you know the designer for whom the academic the designer for whom the academic the designer for whom the academic currency is not necessarily the citation currency is not necessarily the citation currency is not necessarily the citation index index index and of course in order to get tenure at and of course in order to get tenure at and of course in order to get tenure at MIT you have to look at the citation MIT you have to look at the citation MIT you have to look at the citation index but for me it it was not that it index but for me it it was not that it index but for me it it was not that it was manifesting our work in shows and was manifesting our work in shows and was manifesting our work in shows and writing papers and writing patents and writing papers and writing patents and writing papers and writing patents and creating a celebration around work and I creating a celebration around work and I creating a celebration around work and I never saw a a distinction and you know never saw a a distinction and you know never saw a a distinction and you know between those ways of being I also think between those ways of being I also think between those ways of being I also think that another that another that another um um um kind of way of being or a modality of kind of way of being or a modality of kind of way of being or a modality of being that I found helpful is being that I found helpful is being that I found helpful is um Victor Frankel wrote this incredible um Victor Frankel wrote this incredible um Victor Frankel wrote this incredible book man searched for meaning after the book man searched for meaning after the book man searched for meaning after the Holocaust and he writes different people Holocaust and he writes different people Holocaust and he writes different people uh uh uh pursue life for for different reasons pursue life for for different reasons pursue life for for different reasons According to Freud the the the goal of According to Freud the the the goal of According to Freud the the the goal of of life is to find pleasure and of life is to find pleasure and of life is to find pleasure and according to Adler it's you know to find according to Adler it's you know to find according to Adler it's you know to find power power power and and and um and for Victor Frankel it was about um and for Victor Frankel it was about um and for Victor Frankel it was about finding meaning finding meaning finding meaning and when you let go of the titles and and when you let go of the titles and and when you let go of the titles and the disciplines and the boundaries and the disciplines and the boundaries and the disciplines and the boundaries and the expectations and the perception you the expectations and the perception you the expectations and the perception you you are elevated to this really special

you are elevated to this really special you are elevated to this really special yes spiritual but definitely very very yes spiritual but definitely very very yes spiritual but definitely very very creative plane where you you can sort of creative plane where you you can sort of creative plane where you you can sort of Start Anew Start Anew Start Anew look at the world through the lens of a look at the world through the lens of a look at the world through the lens of a bacterium or a robot or it or you know bacterium or a robot or it or you know bacterium or a robot or it or you know or look at ecology through the lens of or look at ecology through the lens of or look at ecology through the lens of chemistry and look at chemistry the chemistry and look at chemistry the chemistry and look at chemistry the lines of Robotics and look at robotics lines of Robotics and look at robotics lines of Robotics and look at robotics through the lens of you know through the lens of you know through the lens of you know microbial ecologies and so on and so microbial ecologies and so on and so microbial ecologies and so on and so forth and and I feel that kind of forth and and I feel that kind of forth and and I feel that kind of rebooting rebooting rebooting um not every 10 years but every minute um not every 10 years but every minute um not every 10 years but every minute every breath every breath every breath is very very important for a creative is very very important for a creative is very very important for a creative life and for for just maintaining this life and for for just maintaining this life and for for just maintaining this fresh mind to reboot reboot to begin fresh mind to reboot reboot to begin fresh mind to reboot reboot to begin again with every breath begin again and again with every breath begin again and again with every breath begin again and and that can be confusing for some right and that can be confusing for some right and that can be confusing for some right for my team members you know I I like to for my team members you know I I like to for my team members you know I I like to change my mind it's who I am it's how I change my mind it's who I am it's how I change my mind it's who I am it's how I think it's how I operate um you know and and and they'll come and um you know and and and they'll come and and we found another technique or and we found another technique or and we found another technique or another technology that's interesting another technology that's interesting another technology that's interesting and we thought that you know that we and we thought that you know that we and we thought that you know that we were working on this functionalized were working on this functionalized were working on this functionalized fragrance but now there's another fragrance but now there's another fragrance but now there's another opportunity and let's go there and to me opportunity and let's go there and to me opportunity and let's go there and to me I would much rather you know live life I would much rather you know live life I would much rather you know live life like if I had to pick sort of my like if I had to pick sort of my like if I had to pick sort of my favorite Broadway show favorite Broadway show favorite Broadway show um to enter and live through it would be um to enter and live through it would be um to enter and live through it would be into the woods it's not a specific fairy into the woods it's not a specific fairy into the woods it's not a specific fairy tale it's not tale it's not tale it's not you know the Sleeping Beauty or or you know the Sleeping Beauty or or you know the Sleeping Beauty or or Little Red Riding Hood

Little Red Riding Hood Little Red Riding Hood um or Rapunzel it's all of them it's um or Rapunzel it's all of them it's um or Rapunzel it's all of them it's sort of moving into the forest and sort of moving into the forest and sort of moving into the forest and seeing this wonder and getting close and seeing this wonder and getting close and seeing this wonder and getting close and learning about that and then moving to learning about that and then moving to learning about that and then moving to another wonder and life is really about another wonder and life is really about another wonder and life is really about tying all of these tying all of these tying all of these little fairy tales together uh in work little fairy tales together uh in work little fairy tales together uh in work and and also in life unafraid to LEAP and and also in life unafraid to LEAP and and also in life unafraid to LEAP into the unknown unafraid to LEAP into into the unknown unafraid to LEAP into into the unknown unafraid to LEAP into the unknown speaking of mid you got a the unknown speaking of mid you got a the unknown speaking of mid you got a tenure at MIT and then you leaped tenure at MIT and then you leaped tenure at MIT and then you leaped to New York and start a new company that to New York and start a new company that to New York and start a new company that with a vision that doesn't spend a with a vision that doesn't spend a with a vision that doesn't spend a couple of years but centuries couple of years but centuries couple of years but centuries I did it was my destiny to start a I did it was my destiny to start a I did it was my destiny to start a company and and do I have mornings when company and and do I have mornings when company and and do I have mornings when I wake up and I ask myself what the hell I wake up and I ask myself what the hell I wake up and I ask myself what the hell am I doing yes I I have those mornings am I doing yes I I have those mornings am I doing yes I I have those mornings what do you do with those mornings by what do you do with those mornings by what do you do with those mornings by the way I embrace them and I I find the way I embrace them and I I find the way I embrace them and I I find gratitude and I say to myself thank gratitude and I say to myself thank gratitude and I say to myself thank goodness I I'm so lucky to you know to goodness I I'm so lucky to you know to goodness I I'm so lucky to you know to have the the the ability to be have the the the ability to be have the the the ability to be frustrated in this way frustrated in this way frustrated in this way um so I really really Embrace these um so I really really Embrace these um so I really really Embrace these frustrations and I and I I frustrations and I and I I frustrations and I and I I I take them I wrap them in a bubble and I take them I wrap them in a bubble and I take them I wrap them in a bubble and I look at it you know on the outside of I look at it you know on the outside of I look at it you know on the outside of my my uh my my uh my my uh um aware mind um aware mind um aware mind um and and I laugh at them I smile at um and and I laugh at them I smile at um and and I laugh at them I smile at them them them if I could return actually to the if I could return actually to the if I could return actually to the question of Beauty for a second I forgot question of Beauty for a second I forgot question of Beauty for a second I forgot to ask you something you mentioned

to ask you something you mentioned to ask you something you mentioned imperfection imperfection imperfection in the Death Masks what role does in the Death Masks what role does in the Death Masks what role does imperfection imperfection imperfection play in um play in um play in um our conception of beauty what role does our conception of beauty what role does our conception of beauty what role does imperfection play in um imperfection play in um imperfection play in um in nature there's a there's this in nature there's a there's this in nature there's a there's this Japanese Aesthetics concept of wabu-sabi Japanese Aesthetics concept of wabu-sabi Japanese Aesthetics concept of wabu-sabi which basically uh Embraces imperfection which basically uh Embraces imperfection which basically uh Embraces imperfection nothing lasts nothing is finished and nothing lasts nothing is finished and nothing lasts nothing is finished and nothing is perfect what do you think of nothing is perfect what do you think of nothing is perfect what do you think of that I totally agree that change is the that I totally agree that change is the that I totally agree that change is the only permanence that imperfection is only permanence that imperfection is only permanence that imperfection is there if only to to signal that we are there if only to to signal that we are there if only to to signal that we are part of a bigger thing than ourselves part of a bigger thing than ourselves part of a bigger thing than ourselves that that we are on a journey that that we are on a journey that that we are on a journey um that that were um that that were um that that were that things are in movement that things are in movement that things are in movement um and if they were perfect I of of um and if they were perfect I of of um and if they were perfect I of of course when things are perfect it is course when things are perfect it is course when things are perfect it is just so boring we end up with just so boring we end up with just so boring we end up with stereotypes and as humans but I think stereotypes and as humans but I think stereotypes and as humans but I think just in general as living beings just in general as living beings just in general as living beings we're here to find meaning and that we're here to find meaning and that we're here to find meaning and that meaning cannot be found without struggle meaning cannot be found without struggle meaning cannot be found without struggle and without seeking to not to perfect and without seeking to not to perfect and without seeking to not to perfect but to build to work to build towards but to build to work to build towards but to build to work to build towards something better something better something better um when I was a child my mother who who um when I was a child my mother who who um when I was a child my mother who who I love so much always explained to me I love so much always explained to me I love so much always explained to me how important it is to fall and to fail how important it is to fall and to fail how important it is to fall and to fail and to fight and to argue and to fight and to argue and to fight and to argue and and and um um um and that there is a way that there is a

and that there is a way that there is a and that there is a way that there is a culture to culture to culture to to to to failing and and and to to to to failing and and and to to to to failing and and and to imperfection imperfection imperfection um so I I think it is um so I I think it is um so I I think it is it is uh it is uh it is uh necessary for something beautiful to be necessary for something beautiful to be necessary for something beautiful to be imperfect and it is a sign that it is a imperfect and it is a sign that it is a imperfect and it is a sign that it is a sign of nature because nothing in nature sign of nature because nothing in nature sign of nature because nothing in nature is perfect is perfect is perfect what about human relations you mentioned what about human relations you mentioned what about human relations you mentioned finding love finding love finding love are the flaws in humans in perfection in are the flaws in humans in perfection in are the flaws in humans in perfection in humans a component of love humans a component of love humans a component of love like what role do you think the the like what role do you think the the like what role do you think the the flaws play it's a that's a really profound question it's a that's a really profound question I think I think I think the flaws are there uh to the flaws are there to present a a the flaws are there to present a a vulnerability and those flaws are vulnerability and those flaws are vulnerability and those flaws are um um um are are are um a sign of those vulnerabilities um a sign of those vulnerabilities um a sign of those vulnerabilities and I think and I think and I think love is very very gentle right love love is very very gentle right love love is very very gentle right love with Bill we often talk about between with Bill we often talk about between with Bill we often talk about between the two of us about what drives all the two of us about what drives all the two of us about what drives all human behavior and for him it's human behavior and for him it's human behavior and for him it's incentive as you might expect and he incentive as you might expect and he incentive as you might expect and he will repeat this sentence to me oh will repeat this sentence to me oh will repeat this sentence to me oh incentive drives all human behavior but incentive drives all human behavior but incentive drives all human behavior but I I would say to me it's love love very

I I would say to me it's love love very I I would say to me it's love love very much so much so much so um and um and um and and I think flaws are part of that and I think flaws are part of that and I think flaws are part of that because flaws are a sign of that because flaws are a sign of that because flaws are a sign of that vulnerability whether physical whether vulnerability whether physical whether vulnerability whether physical whether emotional vulnerability and those emotional vulnerability and those emotional vulnerability and those vulnerabilities these vulnerabilities vulnerabilities these vulnerabilities vulnerabilities these vulnerabilities they either tear us apart or they bring they either tear us apart or they bring they either tear us apart or they bring us together us together us together um the vulnerability is what is the glue um the vulnerability is what is the glue um the vulnerability is what is the glue I think I think that the vulnerability I think I think that the vulnerability I think I think that the vulnerability enables connection the connection is the enables connection the connection is the enables connection the connection is the glue and that connection enables glue and that connection enables glue and that connection enables accessing A Higher Ground as a community accessing A Higher Ground as a community accessing A Higher Ground as a community as opposed to as an individual so if as opposed to as an individual so if as opposed to as an individual so if there is a society of the mind or if there is a society of the mind or if there is a society of the mind or if there are higher levels of awareness there are higher levels of awareness there are higher levels of awareness that can be accessed in community as that can be accessed in community as that can be accessed in community as opposed to opposed to opposed to again going to the silkworm as opposed again going to the silkworm as opposed again going to the silkworm as opposed to on the individual level I think that to on the individual level I think that to on the individual level I think that those occur through the flaws and the those occur through the flaws and the those occur through the flaws and the vulnerabilities and without them we we vulnerabilities and without them we we vulnerabilities and without them we we cannot find connection community and cannot find connection community and cannot find connection community and without Community we can't build what we without Community we can't build what we without Community we can't build what we have built as a civilization you know have built as a civilization you know have built as a civilization you know for the past hundreds of thousands of for the past hundreds of thousands of for the past hundreds of thousands of years so I think not only are they years so I think not only are they years so I think not only are they beautiful but they have a functional beautiful but they have a functional beautiful but they have a functional role in in building civilizations role in in building civilizations role in in building civilizations yeah there's a sense in which love yeah there's a sense in which love yeah there's a sense in which love requires vulnerability and maybe love is requires vulnerability and maybe love is requires vulnerability and maybe love is the leap into that vulnerability and I the leap into that vulnerability and I the leap into that vulnerability and I think yes I think think yes I think think yes I think a flaw think about it like physically a flaw think about it like physically a flaw think about it like physically I'm thinking about

I'm thinking about I'm thinking about a brick that's flawed but in a way the a brick that's flawed but in a way the a brick that's flawed but in a way the the I think of a flaw as a as an the I think of a flaw as a as an the I think of a flaw as a as an increased surface area that's a good line right a surface area that's a good line right a surface area that like physically emotionally right that like physically emotionally right that like physically emotionally right it sort of introduces this whole new it sort of introduces this whole new it sort of introduces this whole new dimension to a human or a brick and dimension to a human or a brick and dimension to a human or a brick and because you have more surface area you because you have more surface area you because you have more surface area you can you know yeah use mortar and build a can you know yeah use mortar and build a can you know yeah use mortar and build a home and and yeah I think of it as home and and yeah I think of it as home and and yeah I think of it as accessing this additional dimension of accessing this additional dimension of accessing this additional dimension of surface area that could be used for good surface area that could be used for good surface area that could be used for good or bad right to to to connect to or bad right to to to connect to or bad right to to to connect to communicate to collaborate communicate to collaborate communicate to collaborate it makes me think of that quote from it makes me think of that quote from it makes me think of that quote from this incredible movie I've watched years this incredible movie I've watched years this incredible movie I've watched years ago ago ago Particle Fever I think it was called Particle Fever I think it was called Particle Fever I think it was called documentary about the Large Hadron documentary about the Large Hadron documentary about the Large Hadron Collider an incredible film where they Collider an incredible film where they Collider an incredible film where they talk about the things that are least talk about the things that are least talk about the things that are least important for our survival are the important for our survival are the important for our survival are the things that make us human things that make us human things that make us human like the the pure romantic act or you like the the pure romantic act or you like the the pure romantic act or you know the notion of and and Victor know the notion of and and Victor know the notion of and and Victor Frankel talks about that too Frankel talks about that too Frankel talks about that too he talks about he talks about he talks about feeling the sun on his arms as he's as feeling the sun on his arms as he's as feeling the sun on his arms as he's as he is he is he is um um um working the soil in working the soil in working the soil in two degrees Fahrenheit with without two degrees Fahrenheit with without two degrees Fahrenheit with without clothes and clothes and clothes and the officer

the officer the officer berate him and says what have you done berate him and says what have you done berate him and says what have you done have you been a businessman before you have you been a businessman before you have you been a businessman before you came here to the camp came here to the camp came here to the camp and he says I was a doctor and he said and he says I was a doctor and he said and he says I was a doctor and he said you you must have made a lot of money as you you must have made a lot of money as you you must have made a lot of money as a doctor and he said I all all my work a doctor and he said I all all my work a doctor and he said I all all my work I've done for free I've been helping the I've done for free I've been helping the I've done for free I've been helping the poor poor poor um but he keeps his he keeps um but he keeps his he keeps um but he keeps his he keeps his his his um humility and he he keeps his um humility and he he keeps his um humility and he he keeps his um modesty and he keeps his um modesty and he keeps his um modesty and he keeps his preservation of the spirit preservation of the spirit preservation of the spirit um um um and he says the things that actually and he says the things that actually and he says the things that actually make him make him make him able to or made him able to outlive the able to or made him able to outlive the able to or made him able to outlive the the Terrible the Terrible the Terrible um experience in the Holocaust was the um experience in the Holocaust was the um experience in the Holocaust was the the really cherishing this moment when the really cherishing this moment when the really cherishing this moment when the Sun hits his skin or when he can eat the Sun hits his skin or when he can eat the Sun hits his skin or when he can eat it it it um a grain of rice a single grain of um a grain of rice a single grain of um a grain of rice a single grain of rice so I think rice so I think rice so I think cherishing is a very important part of cherishing is a very important part of cherishing is a very important part of um living a meaningful life being able um living a meaningful life being able um living a meaningful life being able to cherish those simple things to cherish those simple things to cherish those simple things like to notice them and to to notice like to notice them and to to notice like to notice them and to to notice them to pay attention to them in the them to pay attention to them in the them to pay attention to them in the moment moment moment and I I do this now more than ever and I I do this now more than ever and I I do this now more than ever I mean there is something the Bukowski I mean there is something the Bukowski I mean there is something the Bukowski has this poem I like called Nirvana has this poem I like called Nirvana has this poem I like called Nirvana where it tells the story of a young man where it tells the story of a young man where it tells the story of a young man on a bus going through like North

on a bus going through like North on a bus going through like North Carolina or something like this and they Carolina or something like this and they Carolina or something like this and they stop off in a cafe and he has this stop off in a cafe and he has this stop off in a cafe and he has this there's a waitress and just he talks there's a waitress and just he talks there's a waitress and just he talks about that he notices the magic about that he notices the magic about that he notices the magic something Indescribable we just notice something Indescribable we just notice something Indescribable we just notice the magic of it and he gets back on the the magic of it and he gets back on the the magic of it and he gets back on the bus with the rest of the passengers and bus with the rest of the passengers and bus with the rest of the passengers and none of them seem to have noticed the none of them seem to have noticed the none of them seem to have noticed the magic magic magic and and and I think if you just allow yourself to I think if you just allow yourself to I think if you just allow yourself to pause it just to pause it just to pause it just to feel whatever that is maybe maybe feel whatever that is maybe maybe feel whatever that is maybe maybe ultimately is a kind of gratitude yes ultimately is a kind of gratitude yes ultimately is a kind of gratitude yes for for for I don't know what it is I don't know what it is I don't know what it is it's just that I'm sure it's just it's just that I'm sure it's just it's just that I'm sure it's just chemicals in the brain but it's just so chemicals in the brain but it's just so chemicals in the brain but it's just so incredible to be alive yeah and noticing incredible to be alive yeah and noticing incredible to be alive yeah and noticing that yes and appreciating that and being that yes and appreciating that and being that yes and appreciating that and being one in that with others yes yes and and one in that with others yes yes and and one in that with others yes yes and and that goes back to that goes back to that goes back to you know to the fireplace right to the you know to the fireplace right to the you know to the fireplace right to the First Technology what was the first First Technology what was the first First Technology what was the first technology it was fire First Technology technology it was fire First Technology technology it was fire First Technology to have built community and it emerged to have built community and it emerged to have built community and it emerged out of a vulnerability of wanting to out of a vulnerability of wanting to out of a vulnerability of wanting to stay away from the cold and be warm stay away from the cold and be warm stay away from the cold and be warm together together together and and and of course that fire is and and and of course that fire is and and and of course that fire is associated with not only with comfort associated with not only with comfort associated with not only with comfort and the ability to and the ability to and the ability to uh form you know uh form you know uh form you know biorrelevant nutrients in our food and biorrelevant nutrients in our food and biorrelevant nutrients in our food and and and and and provide heat and comfort and and and and provide heat and comfort and and and and provide heat and comfort but also spirits and and

but also spirits and and but also spirits and and um a kind of a way to enter up you know um a kind of a way to enter up you know um a kind of a way to enter up you know to enter a spiritual moment to enter to enter a spiritual moment to enter to enter a spiritual moment to enter a moment that can only be experienced as a moment that can only be experienced as a moment that can only be experienced as as as as in a community as a as a form of a in a community as a as a form of a in a community as a as a form of a meditative moment meditative moment meditative moment there is a lot to be said about light there is a lot to be said about light there is a lot to be said about light light light light um is I think an important part of um is I think an important part of um is I think an important part of these moments these moments these moments of of of I think I I think it's a real thing I I I think I I think it's a real thing I I I think I I think it's a real thing I I really truly believe that we're born really truly believe that we're born really truly believe that we're born with an with a with an with a with an with a with an aura surface area that is with an aura surface area that is with an aura surface area that is measurable I think we're we're born into measurable I think we're we're born into measurable I think we're we're born into the world with that you know the world with that you know the world with that you know with uh with uh with uh with an aura with an aura with an aura and and and um and how do we channel that is really um and how do we channel that is really um and how do we channel that is really is sort of ends I mean and ends up sort is sort of ends I mean and ends up sort is sort of ends I mean and ends up sort of defining of defining of defining you know defining the light in our lives you know defining the light in our lives you know defining the light in our lives do you think we're all do you think do you think we're all do you think do you think we're all do you think we're all lonely you think there's we're all lonely you think there's we're all lonely you think there's loneliness in US humans oh yes yes loneliness in US humans oh yes yes loneliness in US humans oh yes yes loneliness is part yes I think we we all loneliness is part yes I think we we all loneliness is part yes I think we we all have that loneliness whether we're have that loneliness whether we're have that loneliness whether we're willing to access that loneliness and willing to access that loneliness and willing to access that loneliness and look at it in the eye or completely look at it in the eye or completely look at it in the eye or completely um um um you know completely avoid it or deny it you know completely avoid it or deny it you know completely avoid it or deny it it's like uh it feels like it's a some it's like uh it feels like it's a some it's like uh it feels like it's a some kind of foundation for longing and kind of foundation for longing and kind of foundation for longing and longing leads to this uh this longing leads to this uh this longing leads to this uh this combination of vulnerability and

combination of vulnerability and combination of vulnerability and connection with others yes it feels like connection with others yes it feels like connection with others yes it feels like that's a really important part of being that's a really important part of being that's a really important part of being human is being lonely very it's very we human is being lonely very it's very we human is being lonely very it's very we are born into this world alone are born into this world alone are born into this world alone again being alone and being lonely are again being alone and being lonely are again being alone and being lonely are two different things right and you can two different things right and you can two different things right and you can be together but be lonely and you can be be together but be lonely and you can be be together but be lonely and you can be alone but not be lonely at all alone but not be lonely at all alone but not be lonely at all we often joke bill and I that we often joke bill and I that we often joke bill and I that um he he cannot be lonely he cannot deal um he he cannot be lonely he cannot deal um he he cannot be lonely he cannot deal with being by himself he always needs with being by himself he always needs with being by himself he always needs people around him and I strive long people around him and I strive long people around him and I strive long um must have creative Solitude must find um must have creative Solitude must find um must have creative Solitude must find pockets of solitude and loneliness pockets of solitude and loneliness pockets of solitude and loneliness in order to find creativity and in order to find creativity and in order to find creativity and reconnect with myself reconnect with myself reconnect with myself so loneliness is a recipe for so loneliness is a recipe for so loneliness is a recipe for um for community in my opinion and I um for community in my opinion and I um for community in my opinion and I think those things complement each other think those things complement each other think those things complement each other and they're synergetic absolutely the and they're synergetic absolutely the and they're synergetic absolutely the yin and yang of of yin and yang of of yin and yang of of of of togetherness and they allow you I of of togetherness and they allow you I of of togetherness and they allow you I think to yeah to reset and to tune in think to yeah to reset and to tune in think to yeah to reset and to tune in to to to that ratio we've talked about of who you that ratio we've talked about of who you that ratio we've talked about of who you are and who you want to be are and who you want to be are and who you want to be if you if you go to this place of if you if you go to this place of if you if you go to this place of creative Solitude what's your creative Solitude what's your creative Solitude what's your what's your creative process what's your creative process what's your creative process is there something you've noticed about is there something you've noticed about is there something you've noticed about what you do that leads to your to good what you do that leads to your to good what you do that leads to your to good work work work I love to be able not only I love to be able not only I love to be able not only to lose focus but kind of to focus on

to lose focus but kind of to focus on to lose focus but kind of to focus on the peripheral View the peripheral View the peripheral View and to allow and to allow and to allow um different things to occur at once so um different things to occur at once so um different things to occur at once so I will often in my loneliness Journeys I I will often in my loneliness Journeys I I will often in my loneliness Journeys I will often will often will often listen to like Leonard Bernstein listen to like Leonard Bernstein listen to like Leonard Bernstein anything I can find online by Lenny anything I can find online by Lenny anything I can find online by Lenny Bernstein it's reading a nature paper Bernstein it's reading a nature paper Bernstein it's reading a nature paper it's War and Peace it's really it's War and Peace it's really it's War and Peace it's really revisiting all the texts that are so revisiting all the texts that are so revisiting all the texts that are so Timeless for me with opportunities that Timeless for me with opportunities that Timeless for me with opportunities that are very very timely and I think for me are very very timely and I think for me are very very timely and I think for me the creative process is really about the creative process is really about the creative process is really about bringing bringing bringing timeless timeless timeless problems or concepts together with problems or concepts together with problems or concepts together with timely Technologies timely Technologies timely Technologies to observe them I remember when we did to observe them I remember when we did to observe them I remember when we did the Mandela Pavilion we Read Moby Dick the Mandela Pavilion we Read Moby Dick the Mandela Pavilion we Read Moby Dick the whiteness of the whale the albino the whiteness of the whale the albino the whiteness of the whale the albino the different the other the different the other the different the other and that got us to work on melanin and and that got us to work on melanin and and that got us to work on melanin and and melanin also was sort of an output and melanin also was sort of an output and melanin also was sort of an output from the death mask so it's lots of from the death mask so it's lots of from the death mask so it's lots of things happening at the same time and things happening at the same time and things happening at the same time and really allowing them really allowing them really allowing them allowing them to come together to form allowing them to come together to form allowing them to come together to form this view about the world through the this view about the world through the this view about the world through the lens of a spirit being or a living being lens of a spirit being or a living being lens of a spirit being or a living being or a material and then focus on the or a material and then focus on the or a material and then focus on the world through the lens of that material world through the lens of that material world through the lens of that material the glass work was another project like the glass work was another project like the glass work was another project like that where we were fascinated by glass that where we were fascinated by glass that where we were fascinated by glass because obviously it's superb material because obviously it's superb material because obviously it's superb material for architecture for architecture for architecture but we created this new glass printing but we created this new glass printing but we created this new glass printing technology for the first time that was technology for the first time that was technology for the first time that was shedding light on

shedding light on shedding light on the biomechanics of fluid glass the math the biomechanics of fluid glass the math the biomechanics of fluid glass the math and the physics of which was never done and the physics of which was never done and the physics of which was never done before which was so exciting to us but before which was so exciting to us but before which was so exciting to us but revealing new knowledge about the world revealing new knowledge about the world revealing new knowledge about the world through technology that's one theme through technology that's one theme through technology that's one theme The Reincarnation between things The Reincarnation between things The Reincarnation between things material and immaterial that's another material and immaterial that's another material and immaterial that's another theme theme theme Lenny Bernstein Warren Pete Tolstoy Lenny Bernstein Warren Pete Tolstoy Lenny Bernstein Warren Pete Tolstoy you've already tweeted I told a quote you've already tweeted I told a quote you've already tweeted I told a quote from War and Peace as of course you from War and Peace as of course you from War and Peace as of course you would everything I know I know because would everything I know I know because would everything I know I know because of love love yeah I love this quote so of love love yeah I love this quote so of love love yeah I love this quote so you use these kind of you use these kind of you use these kind of inspirations inspirations inspirations uh to focus you and then find the actual uh to focus you and then find the actual uh to focus you and then find the actual idea in the periphery yes and then idea in the periphery yes and then idea in the periphery yes and then connect them with whatever it is that connect them with whatever it is that connect them with whatever it is that we're working on whether it's you know we're working on whether it's you know we're working on whether it's you know High throughput directed evolution of High throughput directed evolution of High throughput directed evolution of bacteria bacteria bacteria um you know whether it's you know um you know whether it's you know um you know whether it's you know recreating that Garden of Eden in the recreating that Garden of Eden in the recreating that Garden of Eden in the capsule and what it looks like the food capsule and what it looks like the food capsule and what it looks like the food of the future of the future of the future it is a little bit like directing a film it is a little bit like directing a film it is a little bit like directing a film creating a new creating a new creating a new project project project is a bit like creating a film and is a bit like creating a film and is a bit like creating a film and you have these Heroes you have these you have these Heroes you have these you have these Heroes you have these characters and you put them together and characters and you put them together and characters and you put them together and there's a narrative and there's a story there's a narrative and there's a story there's a narrative and there's a story whenever we start a new project it has whenever we start a new project it has whenever we start a new project it has to have these see these ingredients of to have these see these ingredients of to have these see these ingredients of simultaneous complexity it has to be simultaneous complexity it has to be simultaneous complexity it has to be novel in terms of the synthetic biology novel in terms of the synthetic biology novel in terms of the synthetic biology Material Science robotics engineering Material Science robotics engineering Material Science robotics engineering all of these elements that are

all of these elements that are all of these elements that are discipline based or rooted must be novel discipline based or rooted must be novel discipline based or rooted must be novel if you can combine novelty in synthetic if you can combine novelty in synthetic if you can combine novelty in synthetic biology with a novelty in robotics with biology with a novelty in robotics with biology with a novelty in robotics with a novelty in Material Science with a a novelty in Material Science with a a novelty in Material Science with a novelty in computational design and you novelty in computational design and you novelty in computational design and you are bound to create something novel are bound to create something novel are bound to create something novel period and that's how I run the company period and that's how I run the company period and that's how I run the company and that's how I pick the people and so and that's how I pick the people and so and that's how I pick the people and so that's another very very important that's another very very important that's another very very important ingredient of The Cutting Edge across ingredient of The Cutting Edge across ingredient of The Cutting Edge across multiple disciplines that come together multiple disciplines that come together multiple disciplines that come together and then in the background in the and then in the background in the and then in the background in the periphery there is all these messages periphery there is all these messages periphery there is all these messages The Whispers of the ancient oldies right The Whispers of the ancient oldies right The Whispers of the ancient oldies right the beethovens and the picassos so the beethovens and the picassos so the beethovens and the picassos so Beethoven's always whispering to you Beethoven's always whispering to you Beethoven's always whispering to you yeah how could one not include Beethoven yeah how could one not include Beethoven yeah how could one not include Beethoven and The Whispers I'm going to ask you and The Whispers I'm going to ask you and The Whispers I'm going to ask you about Beethoven and The Afghani kissing about Beethoven and The Afghani kissing about Beethoven and The Afghani kissing you've mentioned because I'm I've played you've mentioned because I'm I've played you've mentioned because I'm I've played piano my whole life I've obviously know piano my whole life I've obviously know piano my whole life I've obviously know a lot about Beethoven a lot about Beethoven a lot about Beethoven um and it's it's one of the private um and it's it's one of the private um and it's it's one of the private things for me I suppose because I don't things for me I suppose because I don't things for me I suppose because I don't think I've ever publicly played piano by think I've ever publicly played piano by think I've ever publicly played piano by the way me too yeah yeah people sometimes even with yeah yeah people sometimes even with guitar people ask me can you play guitar people ask me can you play guitar people ask me can you play something and it just feels like certain something and it just feels like certain something and it just feels like certain things are meant to be done privately things are meant to be done privately things are meant to be done privately yeah it's weird I mean it's a difficult yeah it's weird I mean it's a difficult yeah it's weird I mean it's a difficult and and some of uh the times I have and and some of uh the times I have and and some of uh the times I have performed publicly uh it is It performed publicly uh it is It performed publicly uh it is It ultimately been vulnerabilities very ultimately been vulnerabilities very ultimately been vulnerabilities very very very difficult for me and I'm sure very very difficult for me and I'm sure very very difficult for me and I'm sure it's I know it's not for a lot of people it's I know it's not for a lot of people it's I know it's not for a lot of people but it is for me anyway we will turn to but it is for me anyway we will turn to but it is for me anyway we will turn to that but since you've mentioned

that but since you've mentioned that but since you've mentioned combination of novelty costs multiple combination of novelty costs multiple combination of novelty costs multiple disciplines and that's what you seek disciplines and that's what you seek disciplines and that's what you seek when you when you when you when you build teams or pick people you when you build teams or pick people you when you build teams or pick people you work with I just wanted to kind of work with I just wanted to kind of work with I just wanted to kind of Linger on this um idea of Linger on this um idea of Linger on this um idea of what kind of humans are you looking for what kind of humans are you looking for what kind of humans are you looking for in this endeavor that you're taking on in this endeavor that you're taking on in this endeavor that you're taking on this fascinating thing that you've been this fascinating thing that you've been this fascinating thing that you've been uh talking about want to think somewhere uh talking about want to think somewhere uh talking about want to think somewhere else else else a previous version a previous version a previous version version 5.7 of Nary said somewhere that version 5.7 of Nary said somewhere that version 5.7 of Nary said somewhere that there's four fields there's four fields there's four fields that are combined to create this that are combined to create this that are combined to create this intersection of biology and Engineering intersection of biology and Engineering intersection of biology and Engineering work in is computational design additive work in is computational design additive work in is computational design additive manufacturing material engineering manufacturing material engineering manufacturing material engineering synthetic biology I'm sure there's synthetic biology I'm sure there's synthetic biology I'm sure there's others but how do you how do you find others but how do you how do you find others but how do you how do you find these humans machine learning is in the these humans machine learning is in the these humans machine learning is in the mix mix mix I manifest and they come I manifest and they come I manifest and they come um yeah there are a few approaches to um yeah there are a few approaches to um yeah there are a few approaches to Memphis they show up okay um you know send your they show up okay um you know send your message upon the water I mean those job message upon the water I mean those job message upon the water I mean those job descriptions that you saw the first ones descriptions that you saw the first ones descriptions that you saw the first ones I wrote by myself uh and you find I wrote by myself uh and you find I wrote by myself uh and you find interesting people and brilliant people interesting people and brilliant people interesting people and brilliant people when you when you when you look we talked about second derivative look we talked about second derivative look we talked about second derivative when you look under and under and under when you look under and under and under when you look under and under and under and if you look deep enough and and if you look deep enough and and if you look deep enough and specialized enough and if you allow specialized enough and if you allow specialized enough and if you allow yourself to yourself to yourself to look at the cracks at the flaws at the look at the cracks at the flaws at the look at the cracks at the flaws at the the cracks between disciplines and the cracks between disciplines and the cracks between disciplines and between scales you find really really between scales you find really really between scales you find really really interesting Diamonds in the Rough and so interesting Diamonds in the Rough and so interesting Diamonds in the Rough and so I I I I like for those job descriptions

I I I I like for those job descriptions I I I I like for those job descriptions to to to yeah to be those messages in a bottle yeah to be those messages in a bottle yeah to be those messages in a bottle that bring those really interesting that bring those really interesting that bring those really interesting people our way people our way people our way um I mean they have to have humility um I mean they have to have humility um I mean they have to have humility they have to have a shine in their eye they have to have a shine in their eye they have to have a shine in their eye they have to be hungry and foolish it's they have to be hungry and foolish it's they have to be hungry and foolish it's his job so famously said his job so famously said his job so famously said a friend of mine who's a dean of a friend of mine who's a dean of a friend of mine who's a dean of well-known architectural School said you well-known architectural School said you well-known architectural School said you know today Architects don't want to be know today Architects don't want to be know today Architects don't want to be Architects Architects don't look up to Architects Architects don't look up to Architects Architects don't look up to the starchy texts as role models the starchy texts as role models the starchy texts as role models starchitects are no longer Role Models starchitects are no longer Role Models starchitects are no longer Role Models Architects Want to Build by virtue of Architects Want to Build by virtue of Architects Want to Build by virtue of not building right Architects one she not building right Architects one she not building right Architects one she said we're back in the 60s when we think said we're back in the 60s when we think said we're back in the 60s when we think about architecture back in the hippie about architecture back in the hippie about architecture back in the hippie movement I think I think that in a way movement I think I think that in a way movement I think I think that in a way um they have to be somewhat of a hippie um they have to be somewhat of a hippie um they have to be somewhat of a hippie somewhat of a a kind of a somewhat of a a kind of a somewhat of a a kind of a um Jack of all trades master of all um Jack of all trades master of all um Jack of all trades master of all um and yet um and yet um and yet with humility now that is hard to find with humility now that is hard to find with humility now that is hard to find and that is why you know when I start an and that is why you know when I start an and that is why you know when I start an interview I talk about childhood interview I talk about childhood interview I talk about childhood memories and I asked about music and I memories and I asked about music and I memories and I asked about music and I asked about connection and through these asked about connection and through these asked about connection and through these interviews you can learn a lot about a interviews you can learn a lot about a interviews you can learn a lot about a person's future person's future person's future by spending time hearing them talk about by spending time hearing them talk about by spending time hearing them talk about their past do you find that educational their past do you find that educational their past do you find that educational back like uh phds versus like what's the back like uh phds versus like what's the back like uh phds versus like what's the life trajectory yours is an interesting life trajectory yours is an interesting life trajectory yours is an interesting life trajectory too like uh what's the

life trajectory too like uh what's the life trajectory too like uh what's the life trajectory that leads to the kind life trajectory that leads to the kind life trajectory that leads to the kind of person that would work with you um of person that would work with you um of person that would work with you um it's you know people who have it's you know people who have it's you know people who have um ideally had industry experience and um ideally had industry experience and um ideally had industry experience and know what it's like to be in the know what it's like to be in the know what it's like to be in the quote-unquote real world they're quote-unquote real world they're quote-unquote real world they're dreamers that are addicted to reality as dreamers that are addicted to reality as dreamers that are addicted to reality as opposed to realists that are addicted to opposed to realists that are addicted to opposed to realists that are addicted to dreams dreams dreams meaning they have that innocence in them meaning they have that innocence in them meaning they have that innocence in them they have the hunger they have the they have the hunger they have the they have the hunger they have the idealism without idealism without idealism without um being entitled and with understanding um being entitled and with understanding um being entitled and with understanding the systems that govern our world and the systems that govern our world and the systems that govern our world and understanding how to utilize these understanding how to utilize these understanding how to utilize these systems as Trojan horses to bring those systems as Trojan horses to bring those systems as Trojan horses to bring those values into the world values into the world values into the world there are individuals who are feel there are individuals who are feel there are individuals who are feel comfortable in this friction between comfortable in this friction between comfortable in this friction between um between you know highly wondrous and um between you know highly wondrous and um between you know highly wondrous and dreamy and incredible dreamy and incredible dreamy and incredible fantasy Renditions of what the world fantasy Renditions of what the world fantasy Renditions of what the world could be with extremely could be with extremely could be with extremely um and extremely brilliant skills in um and extremely brilliant skills in um and extremely brilliant skills in terms of their disciplinary background terms of their disciplinary background terms of their disciplinary background so PhD with industrial experience in a so PhD with industrial experience in a so PhD with industrial experience in a certain field or a double major and two certain field or a double major and two certain field or a double major and two fields that make no sense whatsoever in fields that make no sense whatsoever in fields that make no sense whatsoever in their combination I love it yeah are their combination I love it yeah are their combination I love it yeah are things that really really attract me and things that really really attract me and things that really really attract me and especially that that's been this the the especially that that's been this the the especially that that's been this the the technology biology technology biology technology biology yes Gap technology biology nature yes Gap technology biology nature yes Gap technology biology nature culture I mean the secret to one thing culture I mean the secret to one thing culture I mean the secret to one thing is through the lens of another and I is through the lens of another and I is through the lens of another and I always believe in that kind of always believe in that kind of always believe in that kind of translational design ability to be able

translational design ability to be able translational design ability to be able to see something through the lens of to see something through the lens of to see something through the lens of another and always allows you to think another and always allows you to think another and always allows you to think Again Begin Again re-establish redefine Again Begin Again re-establish redefine Again Begin Again re-establish redefine suspend your disbelief revisit suspend your disbelief revisit suspend your disbelief revisit um and when you revisit enough times um and when you revisit enough times um and when you revisit enough times like a hundred times or like 200 times like a hundred times or like 200 times like a hundred times or like 200 times and you revisit the same question and you revisit the same question and you revisit the same question through the lens of any possible through the lens of any possible through the lens of any possible discipline and any possible scenario you discipline and any possible scenario you discipline and any possible scenario you you find you get eventually you get to you find you get eventually you get to you find you get eventually you get to the truth I have to ask you because you the truth I have to ask you because you the truth I have to ask you because you work at the interplay of uh the machine work at the interplay of uh the machine work at the interplay of uh the machine and the natural world is there a good and the natural world is there a good and the natural world is there a good definition for you of what is life definition for you of what is life definition for you of what is life what what is a living organism what what is a living organism what what is a living organism I think like 440 million years ago there I think like 440 million years ago there I think like 440 million years ago there were all these plants were all these plants were all these plants that that that [Music] [Music] [Music] um um um the cyanobacteria I believe actually the cyanobacteria I believe actually the cyanobacteria I believe actually that that God that that was like the that that God that that was like the that that God that that was like the first Extinction right there were six first Extinction right there were six first Extinction right there were six five extinctions we are apparently the five extinctions we are apparently the five extinctions we are apparently the sixth we are in the eye of the storm we sixth we are in the eye of the storm we sixth we are in the eye of the storm we are in the six Extinction we are going are in the six Extinction we are going are in the six Extinction we are going to be extinct as we speak I mean death to be extinct as we speak I mean death to be extinct as we speak I mean death is upon us whether we want to admit it is upon us whether we want to admit it is upon us whether we want to admit it or not and actually they found in or not and actually they found in or not and actually they found in Argentina and in in you know various Argentina and in in you know various Argentina and in in you know various places around the world they found these places around the world they found these places around the world they found these spores of the first plants that existed spores of the first plants that existed spores of the first plants that existed on the planet and they on the planet and they on the planet and they emerged out of these cyanobacteria where emerged out of these cyanobacteria where emerged out of these cyanobacteria where the first of course and then they found the first of course and then they found the first of course and then they found these spore-based plants and because

these spore-based plants and because these spore-based plants and because they didn't have seeds or only Sports they didn't have seeds or only Sports they didn't have seeds or only Sports the spores became sort of the fossils by the spores became sort of the fossils by the spores became sort of the fossils by which we've come to known of their which we've come to known of their which we've come to known of their existence existence existence and because of these spores we know that and because of these spores we know that and because of these spores we know that this first Extinction existed this first Extinction existed this first Extinction existed but this Extinction is actually what but this Extinction is actually what but this Extinction is actually what enabled plants to resurrect right so the enabled plants to resurrect right so the enabled plants to resurrect right so the death of these first plants because they death of these first plants because they death of these first plants because they clinked to the rocks and they they clinked to the rocks and they they clinked to the rocks and they they generated a ton of phosphorus that went generated a ton of phosphorus that went generated a ton of phosphorus that went into the ocean by into the ocean by into the ocean by clinging to the Rocks like 60 times more clinging to the Rocks like 60 times more clinging to the Rocks like 60 times more phosphorus than without them and then phosphorus than without them and then phosphorus than without them and then all this phosphorus basically choked the all this phosphorus basically choked the all this phosphorus basically choked the oceans and made them super cold and a oceans and made them super cold and a oceans and made them super cold and a um without oxygen aoxic and then and um without oxygen aoxic and then and um without oxygen aoxic and then and then we lost the plant kingdom and then then we lost the plant kingdom and then then we lost the plant kingdom and then because of the death of these first because of the death of these first because of the death of these first plants they actually enriched the soil plants they actually enriched the soil plants they actually enriched the soil and created nutrients for these new and created nutrients for these new and created nutrients for these new plants to come to the planet plants to come to the planet plants to come to the planet um and those planets had like more um and those planets had like more um and those planets had like more sophisticated vein systems and they were sophisticated vein systems and they were sophisticated vein systems and they were moving beyond spores to seeded plants moving beyond spores to seeded plants moving beyond spores to seeded plants Etc and flowering plants and so in a way Etc and flowering plants and so in a way Etc and flowering plants and so in a way you one mass extinction sort of LED you one mass extinction sort of LED you one mass extinction sort of LED in in the the in in the the in in the the or division period sort of led to Life or division period sort of led to Life or division period sort of led to Life as we know it and where would we be as we know it and where would we be as we know it and where would we be without plants in a way so I I think without plants in a way so I I think without plants in a way so I I think that death is very much part of life and that death is very much part of life and that death is very much part of life and through that definition that kind of

through that definition that kind of through that definition that kind of planetary planetary planetary the wide definition in the context of the wide definition in the context of the wide definition in the context of hundreds of millions of years hundreds of millions of years hundreds of millions of years um life gains a completely new sort of a um life gains a completely new sort of a um life gains a completely new sort of a new light and that's where new light and that's where new light and that's where that's when the particles become a wave that's when the particles become a wave that's when the particles become a wave right where humans are we are not alone right where humans are we are not alone right where humans are we are not alone and we are here because of those plants and we are here because of those plants and we are here because of those plants right so I think death is is very much right so I think death is is very much right so I think death is is very much part of life so in the context of you part of life so in the context of you part of life so in the context of you know the redwood tree perhaps you know know the redwood tree perhaps you know know the redwood tree perhaps you know life is defined as uh ten generations life is defined as uh ten generations life is defined as uh ten generations and through the lens of a bacteria and through the lens of a bacteria and through the lens of a bacteria perhaps life is defined as a millisecond perhaps life is defined as a millisecond perhaps life is defined as a millisecond and perhaps through the lens of of an and perhaps through the lens of of an and perhaps through the lens of of an AGI life is defined as all of human AGI life is defined as all of human AGI life is defined as all of human civilization and so I think it really is civilization and so I think it really is civilization and so I think it really is a question of a question of a question of um um um this time scale again the time scale and this time scale again the time scale and this time scale again the time scale and the organism the life form that's asking the organism the life form that's asking the organism the life form that's asking the question through which we can answer the question through which we can answer the question through which we can answer what is life what is life what is life what do you think about this since what do you think about this since what do you think about this since you're if we think of ourselves as in you're if we think of ourselves as in you're if we think of ourselves as in the eye of the storm of an another the eye of the storm of an another the eye of the storm of an another Extinction Extinction Extinction the the natural question to ask here is the the natural question to ask here is the the natural question to ask here is you have all all of nature and then you you have all all of nature and then you you have all all of nature and then you have this new human creation that is have this new human creation that is have this new human creation that is currently being termed artificial currently being termed artificial currently being termed artificial intelligence how does your work play with the how does your work play with the possibility of of a future super possibility of of a future super possibility of of a future super intelligent ecosystem and AGI that

intelligent ecosystem and AGI that intelligent ecosystem and AGI that either joins or supersedes humans yeah either joins or supersedes humans yeah either joins or supersedes humans yeah um so I'm glad you asked this question um so I'm glad you asked this question um so I'm glad you asked this question and I hope full are terrified both I'm and I hope full are terrified both I'm and I hope full are terrified both I'm hopeful and terrified I did watch your hopeful and terrified I did watch your hopeful and terrified I did watch your interview with Ellie ezrautkovsky and I interview with Ellie ezrautkovsky and I interview with Ellie ezrautkovsky and I loved it because you were scared or loved it because you were scared or loved it because you were scared or because you were excited or because because you were excited or because because you were excited or because there's first of all I was both I I was there's first of all I was both I I was there's first of all I was both I I was I totally scared shamed excited and I totally scared shamed excited and I totally scared shamed excited and totally also inspired because he's just totally also inspired because he's just totally also inspired because he's just such an incredible thinker such an incredible thinker such an incredible thinker um and I can agree or disagree with what um and I can agree or disagree with what um and I can agree or disagree with what he says but I just found his way of he says but I just found his way of he says but I just found his way of thinking about AGI thinking about AGI thinking about AGI um and The Perils of humanity as a um and The Perils of humanity as a um and The Perils of humanity as a result there's an inevitability to what result there's an inevitability to what result there's an inevitability to what he's saying his advice to young people he's saying his advice to young people he's saying his advice to young people is that prepare for a short life yeah he is that prepare for a short life yeah he is that prepare for a short life yeah he thinks thinks thinks it's very it's very it's very almost simple it's almost common sense almost simple it's almost common sense almost simple it's almost common sense that AGI would get rid of humans that he that AGI would get rid of humans that he that AGI would get rid of humans that he can't imagine a trajectory can't imagine a trajectory can't imagine a trajectory eventually that leads to a place that eventually that leads to a place that eventually that leads to a place that doesn't have AGI kill all humans there's doesn't have AGI kill all humans there's doesn't have AGI kill all humans there's just too many trajectories where a super just too many trajectories where a super just too many trajectories where a super intelligent systems gets rid of humans intelligent systems gets rid of humans intelligent systems gets rid of humans and in the near term and so yeah the the and in the near term and so yeah the the and in the near term and so yeah the the that Clarity of thinking is very uh that Clarity of thinking is very uh that Clarity of thinking is very uh sobering to me sobering to me sobering to me it's maybe it is to you as well it's

it's maybe it is to you as well it's it's maybe it is to you as well it's super inspiring because I think he's super inspiring because I think he's super inspiring because I think he's wrong but it's like you you almost want wrong but it's like you you almost want wrong but it's like you you almost want to prove him wrong to prove him wrong to prove him wrong it's like no we humans are clever Bunch it's like no we humans are clever Bunch it's like no we humans are clever Bunch we're gonna find a way it is a bit like we're gonna find a way it is a bit like we're gonna find a way it is a bit like jumping into super cold water it's sort jumping into super cold water it's sort jumping into super cold water it's sort of a kind of a fist in your face it of a kind of a fist in your face it of a kind of a fist in your face it wakes you up and I like these moments so wakes you up and I like these moments so wakes you up and I like these moments so much much much um and and he was able to bring that um and and he was able to bring that um and and he was able to bring that moment to life even though I think moment to life even though I think moment to life even though I think a mother can never a mother can never a mother can never think that way ever think that way ever think that way ever um and and it's a little bit like that um and and it's a little bit like that um and and it's a little bit like that that notion of I I love her more than that notion of I I love her more than that notion of I I love her more than Evolution requires on your question Evolution requires on your question Evolution requires on your question about AGI in nature look I think about AGI in nature look I think about AGI in nature look I think we've been through a lot in terms of to we've been through a lot in terms of to we've been through a lot in terms of to to get here we sort of moved from data to get here we sort of moved from data to get here we sort of moved from data right the ability to collect information right the ability to collect information right the ability to collect information to knowledge the ability to use this to knowledge the ability to use this to knowledge the ability to use this information for utility from knowledge information for utility from knowledge information for utility from knowledge to intelligence and what is intelligence to intelligence and what is intelligence to intelligence and what is intelligence is the ability to problem solve and is the ability to problem solve and is the ability to problem solve and adapt and translate so that's sort of adapt and translate so that's sort of adapt and translate so that's sort of from from data to information to from from data to information to from from data to information to knowledge I think the next Frontier is knowledge I think the next Frontier is knowledge I think the next Frontier is wisdom wisdom wisdom um and what is wisdom wisdom is the um and what is wisdom wisdom is the um and what is wisdom wisdom is the ability to have or find Insight ability to have or find Insight ability to have or find Insight um about um about um about um the world and from wisdom to um the world and from wisdom to um the world and from wisdom to spiritual awareness which is sort of spiritual awareness which is sort of spiritual awareness which is sort of transcends wisdom and is able and to transcends wisdom and is able and to transcends wisdom and is able and to chart the world into new territory but I chart the world into new territory but I chart the world into new territory but I think what is interesting about AGI is think what is interesting about AGI is think what is interesting about AGI is that it is sort of almost like a that it is sort of almost like a that it is sort of almost like a self-recursive thing right because it's self-recursive thing right because it's self-recursive thing right because it's like a washing machine of like a third like a washing machine of like a third like a washing machine of like a third derivative Wikipedia it uses kind of

derivative Wikipedia it uses kind of derivative Wikipedia it uses kind of like language to create language to like language to create language to like language to create language to create language to create language it create language to create language it create language to create language it feels like novelty is being constantly feels like novelty is being constantly feels like novelty is being constantly created I don't I don't it doesn't feel created I don't I don't it doesn't feel created I don't I don't it doesn't feel like it's regurgitating and that's so like it's regurgitating and that's so like it's regurgitating and that's so fascinating because you know these are fascinating because you know these are fascinating because you know these are not the stochastic parrots this is sort not the stochastic parrots this is sort not the stochastic parrots this is sort of a new form of emergence perhaps of uh of a new form of emergence perhaps of uh of a new form of emergence perhaps of uh of of novelty as you say that exists by of of novelty as you say that exists by of of novelty as you say that exists by virtue of using old things to create new virtue of using old things to create new virtue of using old things to create new things things things um um um um but it's not as if the AGI has um but it's not as if the AGI has um but it's not as if the AGI has self-awareness right it's not as if it self-awareness right it's not as if it self-awareness right it's not as if it has maybe maybe maybe maybe it maybe it has maybe maybe maybe maybe it maybe it has maybe maybe maybe maybe it maybe it has but as far as I can tell it's not as has but as far as I can tell it's not as has but as far as I can tell it's not as if AGI has approached Consciousness or if AGI has approached Consciousness or if AGI has approached Consciousness or sentience just yet it it it's it's sentience just yet it it it's it's sentience just yet it it it's it's probably getting there but the language probably getting there but the language probably getting there but the language appears to present itself as if as if appears to present itself as if as if appears to present itself as if as if there is sentience there but it doesn't there is sentience there but it doesn't there is sentience there but it doesn't but I think that's the problem at the but I think that's the problem at the but I think that's the problem at the point where this AGI sounds like me and point where this AGI sounds like me and point where this AGI sounds like me and speaks like me and behaves like me and speaks like me and behaves like me and speaks like me and behaves like me and feels like me and breathes like me and feels like me and breathes like me and feels like me and breathes like me and my daughter knows the AGI to be me is my daughter knows the AGI to be me is my daughter knows the AGI to be me is sort of the end of it and the end of sort of the end of it and the end of sort of the end of it and the end of everything right it's the end of human everything right it's the end of human everything right it's the end of human agency agency agency but what is the end of human agency to but what is the end of human agency to but what is the end of human agency to humans I think is the beginning of humans I think is the beginning of humans I think is the beginning of agency to Nature because if you take all agency to Nature because if you take all agency to Nature because if you take all of this agency if you take all of these of this agency if you take all of these of this agency if you take all of these language models that can summarize all language models that can summarize all language models that can summarize all of human civilization and Consciousness of human civilization and Consciousness of human civilization and Consciousness and then upload that to Nature and have

and then upload that to Nature and have and then upload that to Nature and have nature now deal with that World Of nature now deal with that World Of nature now deal with that World Of Consciousness that it never had access Consciousness that it never had access Consciousness that it never had access to to to so maybe through eliezel's lands the so maybe through eliezel's lands the so maybe through eliezel's lands the short-lived human becomes sort of a very short-lived human becomes sort of a very short-lived human becomes sort of a very long-lived human like sentient weeping long-lived human like sentient weeping long-lived human like sentient weeping willow maybe maybe that's the end and willow maybe maybe that's the end and willow maybe maybe that's the end and the beginning and and and and maybe the beginning and and and and maybe the beginning and and and and maybe um on the more optimistic side uh for us um on the more optimistic side uh for us um on the more optimistic side uh for us humans humans humans um it's a different form of existence uh um it's a different form of existence uh um it's a different form of existence uh where everything we create and where everything we create and where everything we create and everything we consume and everything we everything we consume and everything we everything we consume and everything we process is all process is all process is all made up of six uh you know six elements made up of six uh you know six elements made up of six uh you know six elements and that's it and there's only those six and that's it and there's only those six and that's it and there's only those six elements and not 118 elements and elements and not 118 elements and elements and not 118 elements and um and and it's all the stuff of biology um and and it's all the stuff of biology um and and it's all the stuff of biology plus some you know fair amount of bits plus some you know fair amount of bits plus some you know fair amount of bits bits genes and atoms well I think the bits genes and atoms well I think the bits genes and atoms well I think the idea a lot of Beethoven a lot of idea a lot of Beethoven a lot of idea a lot of Beethoven a lot of Beethoven I think the idea of connecting Beethoven I think the idea of connecting Beethoven I think the idea of connecting AGI to Nature through your work is AGI to Nature through your work is AGI to Nature through your work is really fascinating really fascinating really fascinating sort of uh sort of uh sort of uh unlocking this incredible Machinery of unlocking this incredible Machinery of unlocking this incredible Machinery of intelligence that is Agi intelligence that is Agi intelligence that is Agi and connecting it to the incredible and connecting it to the incredible and connecting it to the incredible Machinery of wisdom that is nature has Machinery of wisdom that is nature has Machinery of wisdom that is nature has evolved through billions of years oh evolved through billions of years oh evolved through billions of years oh pretty crazy intense Evolution exactly

pretty crazy intense Evolution exactly pretty crazy intense Evolution exactly and unlike sort of again I'm going back and unlike sort of again I'm going back and unlike sort of again I'm going back to to to directed Evolution unlike directed Evolution unlike directed Evolution unlike um this sort of high throughput Brute um this sort of high throughput Brute um this sort of high throughput Brute Force approach if there is a way to Force approach if there is a way to Force approach if there is a way to utilize this Synergy for utilize this Synergy for utilize this Synergy for diversity and diversification diversity and diversification diversity and diversification like like like like yeah how like what happens if you like yeah how like what happens if you like yeah how like what happens if you ask a chat GPT question but it takes 10 ask a chat GPT question but it takes 10 ask a chat GPT question but it takes 10 000 years to answer that question like 000 years to answer that question like 000 years to answer that question like what does that look like right when you what does that look like right when you what does that look like right when you like completely switch the time scale like completely switch the time scale like completely switch the time scale um and you can afford the time to answer um and you can afford the time to answer um and you can afford the time to answer the question the question the question and I again I I don't know but but that and I again I I don't know but but that and I again I I don't know but but that world to me is possibly amazing world to me is possibly amazing world to me is possibly amazing do you think there's uh do you think there's uh do you think there's uh because when you start to think about because when you start to think about because when you start to think about time scales like this looking at Earth time scales like this looking at Earth time scales like this looking at Earth all the possible trajectories in my take all the possible trajectories in my take all the possible trajectories in my take of this living organism that is Earth of this living organism that is Earth of this living organism that is Earth do you think there's others like it do do you think there's others like it do do you think there's others like it do you think there's other planets with you think there's other planets with you think there's other planets with life forms on them that are just doing life forms on them that are just doing life forms on them that are just doing their thing in this kind of way because their thing in this kind of way because their thing in this kind of way because you you you in what you're doing you're in what you're doing you're in what you're doing you're you're directly playing with what's you're directly playing with what's you're directly playing with what's possible with life possible with life possible with life life-like things that kind of maps the life-like things that kind of maps the life-like things that kind of maps the question of well what kind of other question of well what kind of other question of well what kind of other things are possible elsewhere things are possible elsewhere things are possible elsewhere do you think do you think do you think um there's other um there's other um there's other worlds Full of Life full of alien life

worlds Full of Life full of alien life worlds Full of Life full of alien life out there I've studied the calculations out there I've studied the calculations out there I've studied the calculations that point you know towards the that point you know towards the that point you know towards the um verdict that the possibility of life um verdict that the possibility of life um verdict that the possibility of life in you know in in and around us is is in you know in in and around us is is in you know in in and around us is is very very low we are a chosen planet in very very low we are a chosen planet in very very low we are a chosen planet in a way right there's water and there's a way right there's water and there's a way right there's water and there's love what else do you need love what else do you need love what else do you need um and and and that sort of um and and and that sort of um and and and that sort of very peculiar juxtaposition of very peculiar juxtaposition of very peculiar juxtaposition of conditions the oxygen the water the conditions the oxygen the water the conditions the oxygen the water the carbon carbon carbon um again is is is in a way a miracle um again is is is in a way a miracle um again is is is in a way a miracle given the given the given the um um um massive extinctions that we've been massive extinctions that we've been massive extinctions that we've been through as life forms and that said I through as life forms and that said I through as life forms and that said I cannot believe that there is no other cannot believe that there is no other cannot believe that there is no other life form I I want to believe life form I I want to believe life form I I want to believe um more than I know um more than I know um more than I know that that yes that there are life forms that that yes that there are life forms that that yes that there are life forms and you know in the white fountain that and you know in the white fountain that and you know in the white fountain that is the black hole right that there are is the black hole right that there are is the black hole right that there are these life forms that are these life forms that are these life forms that are um you know um you know um you know light years away from us and that are light years away from us and that are light years away from us and that are that are forming other forms of life that are forming other forms of life that are forming other forms of life forces yeah I'm much more worried about forces yeah I'm much more worried about forces yeah I'm much more worried about probably the thing that you're working probably the thing that you're working probably the thing that you're working on which is that there's all kinds of on which is that there's all kinds of on which is that there's all kinds of life around us that we're not life around us that we're not life around us that we're not communicating with yes there's aliens in

communicating with yes there's aliens in communicating with yes there's aliens in a sense all around us that we're not a sense all around us that we're not a sense all around us that we're not seeing that we're not talking to they seeing that we're not talking to they seeing that we're not talking to they were not communicating yeah because that were not communicating yeah because that were not communicating yeah because that to me just seems the more likely to me just seems the more likely to me just seems the more likely situation that they don't care that situation that they don't care that situation that they don't care that they're here they're all around us in they're here they're all around us in they're here they're all around us in different forms that that there is a different forms that that there is a different forms that that there is a connection there's a thing that connects connection there's a thing that connects connection there's a thing that connects all of us all of living beings all of us all of living beings all of us all of living beings Across the Universe and like we're not Across the Universe and like we're not Across the Universe and like we're not we're just beginning to understand any we're just beginning to understand any we're just beginning to understand any of it and I feel like that's the of it and I feel like that's the of it and I feel like that's the important problem is I feel like you can important problem is I feel like you can important problem is I feel like you can get there with the tools of science get there with the tools of science get there with the tools of science today by just studying life on Earth today by just studying life on Earth today by just studying life on Earth unlock some really fundamental things unlock some really fundamental things unlock some really fundamental things that maybe you can start to answer that maybe you can start to answer that maybe you can start to answer questions about what is consciousness uh questions about what is consciousness uh questions about what is consciousness uh maybe this thing that we've been saying maybe this thing that we've been saying maybe this thing that we've been saying about uh love but in this in honestly in about uh love but in this in honestly in about uh love but in this in honestly in a serious way and then you'll start to a serious way and then you'll start to a serious way and then you'll start to understand that uh that there is alien understand that uh that there is alien understand that uh that there is alien life all out there and it's much more life all out there and it's much more life all out there and it's much more complicated and interesting that we've complicated and interesting that we've complicated and interesting that we've kind of realized as we're still look kind of realized as we're still look kind of realized as we're still look into human-like exactly human-like into human-like exactly human-like into human-like exactly human-like things it's the variety of life that's things it's the variety of life that's things it's the variety of life that's possible is just almost endless I possible is just almost endless I possible is just almost endless I totally agree with you I I think again totally agree with you I I think again totally agree with you I I think again um um um fine alien right yeah Define fine alien right yeah Define fine alien right yeah Define intelligence Define life right and intelligence Define life right and intelligence Define life right and Marvin Minsky used to say intelligence Marvin Minsky used to say intelligence Marvin Minsky used to say intelligence is a suitcase word right it's a word so is a suitcase word right it's a word so is a suitcase word right it's a word so big it's a word like sustainability and big it's a word like sustainability and big it's a word like sustainability and it's a word like you know rock and roll it's a word like you know rock and roll it's a word like you know rock and roll and

and and suitcase words are always very very suitcase words are always very very suitcase words are always very very dangerous speaking of rock and roll dangerous speaking of rock and roll dangerous speaking of rock and roll you've mentioned music and you mentioned you've mentioned music and you mentioned you've mentioned music and you mentioned Beethoven a bunch of times Beethoven a bunch of times Beethoven a bunch of times um you've also tweeted about uh um you've also tweeted about uh um you've also tweeted about uh evgenie kissing performance and and so evgenie kissing performance and and so evgenie kissing performance and and so on what uh what can you say about the on what uh what can you say about the on what uh what can you say about the role of music in your life I love music role of music in your life I love music role of music in your life I love music um I always wondered why is it that plus um I always wondered why is it that plus um I always wondered why is it that plus plaque art meaning architecture and plaque art meaning architecture and plaque art meaning architecture and sculpture and painting can't get us to sculpture and painting can't get us to sculpture and painting can't get us to cry and music cry and music cry and music gets us to cry so quickly and connect so gets us to cry so quickly and connect so gets us to cry so quickly and connect so quickly there is something about music quickly there is something about music quickly there is something about music that it is and no wonder that plants that it is and no wonder that plants that it is and no wonder that plants also respond to music but that that is also respond to music but that that is also respond to music but that that is the top of the creative pyramid in in my the top of the creative pyramid in in my the top of the creative pyramid in in my opinion and it's a weird mystery that opinion and it's a weird mystery that opinion and it's a weird mystery that we're so connected to music well by the we're so connected to music well by the we're so connected to music well by the way to push back a good bridge will make way to push back a good bridge will make way to push back a good bridge will make me cry a good Arc it's true and I I will me cry a good Arc it's true and I I will me cry a good Arc it's true and I I will say uh when I visited the Sagrada say uh when I visited the Sagrada say uh when I visited the Sagrada Familia I had that kind of spiritual Familia I had that kind of spiritual Familia I had that kind of spiritual reverence towards that spatial reverence towards that spatial reverence towards that spatial experience and being in that space and experience and being in that space and experience and being in that space and feeling the the intention and the space feeling the the intention and the space feeling the the intention and the space and appreciating every little gesture so and appreciating every little gesture so and appreciating every little gesture so it's true it's true it's true this is the universal language it's it's this is the universal language it's it's this is the universal language it's it's the language of waves right it's the the language of waves right it's the the language of waves right it's the language of the waves not the language language of the waves not the language language of the waves not the language of the particles it is the universal of the particles it is the universal of the particles it is the universal language I believe language I believe language I believe and and that is definitely one of my one and and that is definitely one of my one and and that is definitely one of my one of my loves and you said that if you of my loves and you said that if you of my loves and you said that if you weren't doing what you were doing now weren't doing what you were doing now weren't doing what you were doing now perhaps you would be a film director so

perhaps you would be a film director so perhaps you would be a film director so have to ask what uh what do you think is have to ask what uh what do you think is have to ask what uh what do you think is the best film of all time maybe top uh the best film of all time maybe top uh the best film of all time maybe top uh top three yeah top three yeah top three yeah maybe The Godfather maybe The Godfather maybe The Godfather Godfather okay The Godfather is is Godfather okay The Godfather is is Godfather okay The Godfather is is definitely up there Francis Coppola is definitely up there Francis Coppola is definitely up there Francis Coppola is one of my heroes have you met him I have one of my heroes have you met him I have one of my heroes have you met him I have met him yes yes yes I I was very very met him yes yes yes I I was very very met him yes yes yes I I was very very lucky we were very lucky uh to work with lucky we were very lucky uh to work with lucky we were very lucky uh to work with him on his new film at gallopolis which him on his new film at gallopolis which him on his new film at gallopolis which is coming out I hope in 2024 and think is coming out I hope in 2024 and think is coming out I hope in 2024 and think about the cities of the future in in the about the cities of the future in in the about the cities of the future in in the context of new materials and context of new materials and context of new materials and the unity between nature and culture the unity between nature and culture the unity between nature and culture Godfather is definitely up there Godfather is definitely up there Godfather is definitely up there um 2001 is up there um 2001 is up there um 2001 is up there I would watch that film again and again I would watch that film again and again I would watch that film again and again and again and again and again it's incredible it's incredible it's incredible the last scene in the last scene in the last scene in Odyssey 2001 that's Odyssey 2001 that's Odyssey 2001 that's um just watch the last scene of 2001 um just watch the last scene of 2001 um just watch the last scene of 2001 then listen to kovsky and then sort of then listen to kovsky and then sort of then listen to kovsky and then sort of and then go to the garden and that's and then go to the garden and that's and then go to the garden and that's pretty much you know the end in the pretty much you know the end in the pretty much you know the end in the beginning but that scene that last scene beginning but that scene that last scene beginning but that scene that last scene from 2001 is everything from 2001 is everything from 2001 is everything it says so much with so little and it it says so much with so little and it it says so much with so little and it leaves leaves leaves it it's sort of the embodiment I believe it it's sort of the embodiment I believe it it's sort of the embodiment I believe of of of ambivalence and ambivalence and ambivalence and um there's opportunity to believe in the um there's opportunity to believe in the um there's opportunity to believe in the beginning of humankind the end of beginning of humankind the end of beginning of humankind the end of humankind the planet child star or star humankind the planet child star or star humankind the planet child star or star child of the future

child of the future child of the future um was there a death was there an um was there a death was there an um was there a death was there an reincarnation reincarnation reincarnation um you know that final scene to me is um you know that final scene to me is um you know that final scene to me is something that I go back to and and something that I go back to and and something that I go back to and and study and every time there is a study and every time there is a study and every time there is a different reading of that scene that different reading of that scene that different reading of that scene that inspires me so that that scene just and inspires me so that that scene just and inspires me so that that scene just and then the first scene in The Godfather then the first scene in The Godfather then the first scene in The Godfather still one of the best scenes of all still one of the best scenes of all still one of the best scenes of all times sort of a portrait of America the times sort of a portrait of America the times sort of a portrait of America the ideals and values that I brought from ideals and values that I brought from ideals and values that I brought from Italy and a family of loyalty of uh yes Italy and a family of loyalty of uh yes Italy and a family of loyalty of uh yes of values of how how different values of values of how how different values of values of how how different values are constructed yes loyalty and and the are constructed yes loyalty and and the are constructed yes loyalty and and the human spirit and how Coppola celebrates human spirit and how Coppola celebrates human spirit and how Coppola celebrates the human Spirit through the most simple the human Spirit through the most simple the human Spirit through the most simple gestures in language and acting and I gestures in language and acting and I gestures in language and acting and I think in in Kubrick you see this highly think in in Kubrick you see this highly think in in Kubrick you see this highly curated and controlled and manicured curated and controlled and manicured curated and controlled and manicured um vision of creating a film and with um vision of creating a film and with um vision of creating a film and with with Francis it's with Francis it's with Francis it's it's like an Italian Feast it's like it's like an Italian Feast it's like it's like an Italian Feast it's like anything anything can happen at any anything anything can happen at any anything anything can happen at any moment in time moment in time moment in time and just being on the set with him is and just being on the set with him is and just being on the set with him is um is an experience I'll take with me to um is an experience I'll take with me to um is an experience I'll take with me to my grave it's it's very very very my grave it's it's very very very my grave it's it's very very very special and you said music is also part special and you said music is also part special and you said music is also part of that of creating a feeling in the of that of creating a feeling in the of that of creating a feeling in the movies yeah actually the The Godfather movies yeah actually the The Godfather movies yeah actually the The Godfather um That Tune that makes me like emotional That Tune that makes me like emotional every time at some weird level yeah it's

every time at some weird level yeah it's every time at some weird level yeah it's one of these Tunes I'm sure that has one of these Tunes I'm sure that has one of these Tunes I'm sure that has you know you know you know they played to they played to they played to to a Jasmine you'll get the best scent to a Jasmine you'll get the best scent to a Jasmine you'll get the best scent of all time so I think like there's but of all time so I think like there's but of all time so I think like there's but I think with that particular tune I I think with that particular tune I I think with that particular tune I learned staccato learned staccato learned staccato something very very happy and joyous something very very happy and joyous something very very happy and joyous and then made into this stretched in and then made into this stretched in and then made into this stretched in time and became kind of the refrain of Nostalgia and Melancholy and loyalty and Nostalgia and Melancholy and loyalty and all of these values that ride on top of all of these values that ride on top of all of these values that ride on top of this one single tune this one single tune this one single tune you can play in all kinds of different you can play in all kinds of different you can play in all kinds of different ways I've I've played on guitar in all ways I've I've played on guitar in all ways I've I've played on guitar in all kinds of different ways and I think in kinds of different ways and I think in kinds of different ways and I think in Godfather 3 the sun plays it on guitar Godfather 3 the sun plays it on guitar Godfather 3 the sun plays it on guitar to the father to the father to the father I think this happens in movies I think this happens in movies I think this happens in movies but sometimes a melody and that's a but sometimes a melody and that's a but sometimes a melody and that's a simple Melody you can just like simple Melody you can just like simple Melody you can just like and the Strauss melody in 2001 yep and and the Strauss melody in 2001 yep and and the Strauss melody in 2001 yep and when you juxtapose when you juxtapose when you juxtapose this this this um this Melodies with um this Melodies with um this Melodies with the scene you get this again hole that's the scene you get this again hole that's the scene you get this again hole that's bigger than some of its parts where you bigger than some of its parts where you bigger than some of its parts where you get this moment get this moment get this moment that is I think that is I think that is I think like these are the moments I would send like these are the moments I would send like these are the moments I would send you know with the next Voyager to outer you know with the next Voyager to outer you know with the next Voyager to outer space I definitely sent the Godfather in space I definitely sent the Godfather in space I definitely sent the Godfather in in 2001 would definitely be beyond that in 2001 would definitely be beyond that in 2001 would definitely be beyond that um golden record you are an incredibly

um golden record you are an incredibly um golden record you are an incredibly successful scientist engineer architect successful scientist engineer architect successful scientist engineer architect artist designer you've mentored a lot of artist designer you've mentored a lot of artist designer you've mentored a lot of successful people can you give advice to successful people can you give advice to successful people can you give advice to young people listening to this young people listening to this young people listening to this how to have a successful career how to have a successful career how to have a successful career and uh how to have a successful life and uh how to have a successful life and uh how to have a successful life look I I think there's look I I think there's look I I think there's this beautiful line and Sheltering Sky this beautiful line and Sheltering Sky this beautiful line and Sheltering Sky how many times have you seen a full moon how many times have you seen a full moon how many times have you seen a full moon and and and um in your life and actually took the um in your life and actually took the um in your life and actually took the time to ingest and explore and reflect time to ingest and explore and reflect time to ingest and explore and reflect upon the full moon probably 20 I believe upon the full moon probably 20 I believe upon the full moon probably 20 I believe he says he says he says um I I spent time with a full moon um I I spent time with a full moon um I I spent time with a full moon I take my time with a full moon and I I take my time with a full moon and I I take my time with a full moon and I pay attention to a full moon pay attention to a full moon pay attention to a full moon and I think paying attention and I think paying attention and I think paying attention to the seasons and taking time to to the seasons and taking time to to the seasons and taking time to appreciate appreciate appreciate um the little things the simple things um the little things the simple things um the little things the simple things is what makes a meaningful life is what makes a meaningful life is what makes a meaningful life uh I I was very lucky to have had you uh I I was very lucky to have had you uh I I was very lucky to have had you know to have grown up in a home that know to have grown up in a home that know to have grown up in a home that um um um taught me this way of being my my taught me this way of being my my taught me this way of being my my parents my grandmother who played a very parents my grandmother who played a very parents my grandmother who played a very important role in in my growing up important role in in my growing up important role in in my growing up um um um and and and and that ability to pay attention

and that ability to pay attention and that ability to pay attention and to be present is so so so so I could and to be present is so so so so I could and to be present is so so so so I could not emphasize it not emphasize it not emphasize it uh enough is so crucial uh enough is so crucial uh enough is so crucial um and be grateful and be grateful yeah um and be grateful and be grateful yeah um and be grateful and be grateful yeah I think gratitude and presence I think gratitude and presence I think gratitude and presence um appreciation uh really um appreciation uh really um appreciation uh really um the the the most important things in um the the the most important things in um the the the most important things in life if you could take a short tangent life if you could take a short tangent life if you could take a short tangent about your grandmother about your grandmother about your grandmother who's played a big role in your life who's played a big role in your life who's played a big role in your life what uh what do you remember what what what uh what do you remember what what what uh what do you remember what what lessons have you learned from her lessons have you learned from her lessons have you learned from her she had this blanket that she would give she had this blanket that she would give she had this blanket that she would give me every time I came back from school me every time I came back from school me every time I came back from school and say you know do your homework here and say you know do your homework here and say you know do your homework here and and meet with your friends here and and and meet with your friends here and and and meet with your friends here and it was always in her garden and her it was always in her garden and her it was always in her garden and her Garden in my mind was ginormous but when Garden in my mind was ginormous but when Garden in my mind was ginormous but when I you know last I went there and saw the I you know last I went there and saw the I you know last I went there and saw the site which has now become the site for site which has now become the site for site which has now become the site for another another another tall building it was a tiny tiny little tall building it was a tiny tiny little tall building it was a tiny tiny little garden garden garden um that that to me seemed so large when um that that to me seemed so large when um that that to me seemed so large when when I was um growing up because it it when I was um growing up because it it when I was um growing up because it it had everything it had had everything it had had everything it had um um um it had fig trees it had olive trees it it had fig trees it had olive trees it it had fig trees it had olive trees it had mushrooms it had the blanket I would had mushrooms it had the blanket I would had mushrooms it had the blanket I would do my homework there it was everything do my homework there it was everything do my homework there it was everything and I needed nothing nothing else and I needed nothing nothing else and I needed nothing nothing else and and and um and and that was my Garden of Eden um and and that was my Garden of Eden um and and that was my Garden of Eden that was my childhood being and she that was my childhood being and she that was my childhood being and she taught me you know you know we would lie taught me you know you know we would lie taught me you know you know we would lie on the blanket and look at the clouds

on the blanket and look at the clouds on the blanket and look at the clouds and reflect upon the shapes of the and reflect upon the shapes of the and reflect upon the shapes of the clouds and study the shapes of the clouds and study the shapes of the clouds and study the shapes of the plants and there was a lot of wonder in plants and there was a lot of wonder in plants and there was a lot of wonder in that childhood that childhood that childhood um with her and and she taught me the um with her and and she taught me the um with her and and she taught me the the the the importance of Wonder uh in in sort of in importance of Wonder uh in in sort of in importance of Wonder uh in in sort of in an eternal childhood and and living uh an eternal childhood and and living uh an eternal childhood and and living uh adulthood as as a child and and so I I'm adulthood as as a child and and so I I'm adulthood as as a child and and so I I'm very very grateful for that I think it very very grateful for that I think it very very grateful for that I think it is the sense of wonder is the sense of wonder is the sense of wonder um um um the uh um speaking up was always the uh um speaking up was always the uh um speaking up was always something that she adhered to to speak something that she adhered to to speak something that she adhered to to speak up your Truth uh to be straightforward up your Truth uh to be straightforward up your Truth uh to be straightforward um to be positive that these are things um to be positive that these are things um to be positive that these are things that I also got from my mom that I also got from my mom that I also got from my mom um um um and for my mom the sense of humor she and for my mom the sense of humor she and for my mom the sense of humor she she had the best sense of humor of uh she had the best sense of humor of uh she had the best sense of humor of uh that I could think of and and was just that I could think of and and was just that I could think of and and was just um just a joy to be around and um just a joy to be around and um just a joy to be around and and and my father taught me everything and and my father taught me everything and and my father taught me everything my father taught me everything I know my my father taught me everything I know my my father taught me everything I know my mom taught me everything I feel that's a mom taught me everything I feel that's a mom taught me everything I feel that's a girl my grandma taught me everything I girl my grandma taught me everything I girl my grandma taught me everything I Insight well I I see the sense of wonder Insight well I I see the sense of wonder Insight well I I see the sense of wonder that just carries through everything you that just carries through everything you that just carries through everything you do so I I think you would you make your do so I I think you would you make your do so I I think you would you make your grandmother proud grandmother proud grandmother proud uh well what about advice for how to uh well what about advice for how to uh well what about advice for how to have a career have a career have a career so you've had a very interesting career so you've had a very interesting career so you've had a very interesting career and a successful career but not not an and a successful career but not not an and a successful career but not not an easy one it took you took a few leaps I

easy one it took you took a few leaps I easy one it took you took a few leaps I did take a few leaps and they were did take a few leaps and they were did take a few leaps and they were uncomfortable my father and I'll never uncomfortable my father and I'll never uncomfortable my father and I'll never um forget um forget um forget uh I think we were like listening to a uh I think we were like listening to a uh I think we were like listening to a rolling stone song in the kitchen and my rolling stone song in the kitchen and my rolling stone song in the kitchen and my dad dad dad was actually born in Boston he's was actually born in Boston he's was actually born in Boston he's American American American um um um he said he said he said uh uh uh I I started to have sort of these second I I started to have sort of these second I I started to have sort of these second thoughts about continuing my education thoughts about continuing my education thoughts about continuing my education in Israel and I wanted to you know go I in Israel and I wanted to you know go I in Israel and I wanted to you know go I I was on my way to London to the I was on my way to London to the I was on my way to London to the architectural Association to do my architectural Association to do my architectural Association to do my diploma studies there diploma studies there diploma studies there and he looked at me and he said get out and he looked at me and he said get out and he looked at me and he said get out of here kiddo gotta get out of here of here kiddo gotta get out of here of here kiddo gotta get out of here and you know you've outgrown where where and you know you've outgrown where where and you know you've outgrown where where you're at you need to you know you need you're at you need to you know you need you're at you need to you know you need to move forward another thing he had to move forward another thing he had to move forward another thing he had taught me taught me taught me um the feeling of discomfort as you as um the feeling of discomfort as you as um the feeling of discomfort as you as you say the feeling of loneliness and you say the feeling of loneliness and you say the feeling of loneliness and discomfort is is is discomfort is is is discomfort is is is imperative to growth growth is painful imperative to growth growth is painful imperative to growth growth is painful period any form of growth is difficult period any form of growth is difficult period any form of growth is difficult and painful birth is difficult and and painful birth is difficult and and painful birth is difficult and painful painful painful um and and it is really really important um and and it is really really important um and and it is really really important to place yourself in situations of to place yourself in situations of to place yourself in situations of discomfort I like to be in a room where discomfort I like to be in a room where discomfort I like to be in a room where everyone in the room is more intelligent everyone in the room is more intelligent everyone in the room is more intelligent than me I like to be in those in that than me I like to be in those in that than me I like to be in those in that kind of state where the people that I kind of state where the people that I kind of state where the people that I surround myself with are surround myself with are surround myself with are orders of magnitude more intelligent orders of magnitude more intelligent orders of magnitude more intelligent than I am and I can say that that is

than I am and I can say that that is than I am and I can say that that is true of all of my team members and true of all of my team members and true of all of my team members and that's the intellectual discomfort that that's the intellectual discomfort that that's the intellectual discomfort that I feed off of the same is true for for I feed off of the same is true for for I feed off of the same is true for for physical exertion physical exertion physical exertion um you gotta put yourself in these um you gotta put yourself in these um you gotta put yourself in these uncomfortable uncomfortable uncomfortable um situations in order to grow in order um situations in order to grow in order um situations in order to grow in order to find Comfort to find Comfort to find Comfort um and then um and then um and then on the other hand is is love is finding on the other hand is is love is finding on the other hand is is love is finding finding love and finding that finding love and finding that finding love and finding that um um um you know that you know that you know that human this other human that complements human this other human that complements human this other human that complements you and that makes you a better version you and that makes you a better version you and that makes you a better version uh of the one you are and even of the uh of the one you are and even of the uh of the one you are and even of the one you want to be but with gratitude one you want to be but with gratitude one you want to be but with gratitude and and attention and love you can go so and and attention and love you can go so and and attention and love you can go so so far to the younger generation I don't so far to the younger generation I don't so far to the younger generation I don't speak of a career I never thought of speak of a career I never thought of speak of a career I never thought of um um um my work as my career ever and there was my work as my career ever and there was my work as my career ever and there was this constant entanglement between life this constant entanglement between life this constant entanglement between life and work and love and longing and being and work and love and longing and being and work and love and longing and being and mothering it's all the same and mothering it's all the same and mothering it's all the same and uh I appreciate that to some people and uh I appreciate that to some people and uh I appreciate that to some people that doesn't work in their you know in that doesn't work in their you know in that doesn't work in their you know in in their in their in their arrangement of of will versus arrangement of of will versus arrangement of of will versus um comfort uh versus the reality but for um comfort uh versus the reality but for um comfort uh versus the reality but for me it has always worked so I I think

me it has always worked so I I think me it has always worked so I I think to the younger generation I say don't to the younger generation I say don't to the younger generation I say don't think of think of think of your career a career is something that your career a career is something that your career a career is something that is imposed upon you think of your is imposed upon you think of your is imposed upon you think of your calling that's something that's innately calling that's something that's innately calling that's something that's innately and directionally and directionally and directionally um um um moves you and it's something that moves you and it's something that moves you and it's something that transcends a career similarly you can transcends a career similarly you can transcends a career similarly you can think about the difference between think about the difference between think about the difference between you know learning versus being educated you know learning versus being educated you know learning versus being educated being educated something that's given to being educated something that's given to being educated something that's given to you that's external that's being imposed you that's external that's being imposed you that's external that's being imposed that's top down imposed this learning is that's top down imposed this learning is that's top down imposed this learning is something that comes from within it's something that comes from within it's something that comes from within it's also the difference between joy and also the difference between joy and also the difference between joy and happiness many times I'm sad and I'm happiness many times I'm sad and I'm happiness many times I'm sad and I'm still joyous still joyous still joyous and it's very very important to and it's very very important to and it's very very important to understand the difference between these understand the difference between these understand the difference between these externally externally externally perceived success uh paths and perceived success uh paths and perceived success uh paths and internally driven value-based internally driven value-based internally driven value-based you know ways of being in the world and you know ways of being in the world and you know ways of being in the world and we together when when we combine all of we together when when we combine all of we together when when we combine all of these you know all of these uh uh the these you know all of these uh uh the these you know all of these uh uh the broken puzzle let's say of of of broken puzzle let's say of of of broken puzzle let's say of of of substance and substance and substance and um vulnerability we get this bigger um vulnerability we get this bigger um vulnerability we get this bigger Gestalt this wondrous world of a future Gestalt this wondrous world of a future Gestalt this wondrous world of a future that is is is that is is is that is is is peaceful that is uh peaceful that is uh peaceful that is uh um that you know that is wholesome and um that you know that is wholesome and um that you know that is wholesome and that that you know that proposes or you that that you know that proposes or you that that you know that proposes or you know advocates for that kind of synergy know advocates for that kind of synergy know advocates for that kind of synergy that we've been talking about throughout that we've been talking about throughout that we've been talking about throughout but it's all fun

but it's all fun but it's all fun uh well thank you for this incredible uh well thank you for this incredible uh well thank you for this incredible conversation thank you for all the work conversation thank you for all the work conversation thank you for all the work you're doing and I just have to say that you're doing and I just have to say that you're doing and I just have to say that thank you for um noticing me and thank you for um noticing me and thank you for um noticing me and listening to me you you're somebody from listening to me you you're somebody from listening to me you you're somebody from from just today and from our exchanges from just today and from our exchanges from just today and from our exchanges before this before this before this like there's a sense where you care like there's a sense where you care like there's a sense where you care about me as a human being which is in about me as a human being which is in about me as a human being which is in which I could tell you care about other which I could tell you care about other which I could tell you care about other humans thank you for doing that thank humans thank you for doing that thank humans thank you for doing that thank you for having empathy and just like you for having empathy and just like you for having empathy and just like um yeah really listening and noticing me um yeah really listening and noticing me um yeah really listening and noticing me that I exist so thank you for that I've that I exist so thank you for that I've that I exist so thank you for that I've been a huge fan of your work uh been a been a huge fan of your work uh been a been a huge fan of your work uh been a huge fan of who you are as a human being huge fan of who you are as a human being huge fan of who you are as a human being it's just an honor that you would sit it's just an honor that you would sit it's just an honor that you would sit with me thank you uh thank you and uh as with me thank you uh thank you and uh as with me thank you uh thank you and uh as long as I feel the same way I'll just long as I feel the same way I'll just long as I feel the same way I'll just say the same and I look forward to say the same and I look forward to say the same and I look forward to hearing the response to my job hearing the response to my job hearing the response to my job application that I've submitted oh application that I've submitted oh application that I've submitted oh you're you're accepted oh damn all right you're you're accepted oh damn all right you're you're accepted oh damn all right we all speak of you all the time thank we all speak of you all the time thank we all speak of you all the time thank you so much thank you Mary thank you you so much thank you Mary thank you you so much thank you Mary thank you thanks for listening to this thanks for listening to this thanks for listening to this conversation with Mary oxman to support conversation with Mary oxman to support conversation with Mary oxman to support this podcast please check out our this podcast please check out our this podcast please check out our sponsors in the description and now let sponsors in the description and now let sponsors in the description and now let me leave you with some words from Leo me leave you with some words from Leo me leave you with some words from Leo Tolstoy Tolstoy Tolstoy everything I know everything I know everything I know I know because of love I know because of love I know because of love thank you for listening I hope to see thank you for listening I hope to see thank you for listening I hope to see you next time