Guillaume Verdon: Beff Jezos, E/acc Movement, Physics, Computation & AGI | Lex Fridman Podcast #407

the following is a conversation with Gom the following is a conversation with Gom Verdon The Man Behind the previously Verdon The Man Behind the previously Verdon The Man Behind the previously Anonymous account based bef Jos on X Anonymous account based bef Jos on X Anonymous account based bef Jos on X these two identities were merged by a these two identities were merged by a these two identities were merged by a doxing article in Forbes titled who is doxing article in Forbes titled who is doxing article in Forbes titled who is BAS be jzos the leader of the tech BAS be jzos the leader of the tech BAS be jzos the leader of the tech Elites eak movement so let me describe Elites eak movement so let me describe Elites eak movement so let me describe these two identities that coexist in the these two identities that coexist in the these two identities that coexist in the mind of one human identity number one mind of one human identity number one mind of one human identity number one Gom is a physicist applied mathematician Gom is a physicist applied mathematician Gom is a physicist applied mathematician and Quantum machine learning researcher and Quantum machine learning researcher and Quantum machine learning researcher and engineer receiving his PhD in and engineer receiving his PhD in and engineer receiving his PhD in Quantum machine learning working at Quantum machine learning working at Quantum machine learning working at Google and Quantum Computing and finally Google and Quantum Computing and finally Google and Quantum Computing and finally launching his own company called extropy number two beev jzos on X is the extropy number two beev jzos on X is the creator of the effective accelerationism creator of the effective accelerationism creator of the effective accelerationism movement often abbreviated as movement often abbreviated as movement often abbreviated as EAC that advocates for propelling Rapid EAC that advocates for propelling Rapid EAC that advocates for propelling Rapid Tech technological progress as the Tech technological progress as the Tech technological progress as the ethically optimal course of action for ethically optimal course of action for ethically optimal course of action for Humanity for example its proponents Humanity for example its proponents Humanity for example its proponents believe that progress in AI is a great believe that progress in AI is a great believe that progress in AI is a great social equalizer which should be pushed social equalizer which should be pushed social equalizer which should be pushed forward eak followers see themselves as forward eak followers see themselves as forward eak followers see themselves as a con weight to the cautious view that a con weight to the cautious view that a con weight to the cautious view that AI is highly unpredictable potentially AI is highly unpredictable potentially AI is highly unpredictable potentially dangerous and needs to be dangerous and needs to be dangerous and needs to be regulated they often give their regulated they often give their regulated they often give their opponents the labels of quote doomers or opponents the labels of quote doomers or opponents the labels of quote doomers or D cels short for deceleration as Beth

D cels short for deceleration as Beth D cels short for deceleration as Beth himself put it eak is a mtic optimism himself put it eak is a mtic optimism himself put it eak is a mtic optimism virus the style of communication of this virus the style of communication of this virus the style of communication of this movement leans always toward the memes movement leans always toward the memes movement leans always toward the memes and the laws but there is an and the laws but there is an and the laws but there is an intellectual intellectual intellectual Foundation that we explore in this Foundation that we explore in this Foundation that we explore in this conversation now speaking of the meme I conversation now speaking of the meme I conversation now speaking of the meme I am to a kind of aspiring connoisseur of am to a kind of aspiring connoisseur of am to a kind of aspiring connoisseur of the Absurd it is not an accident that I the Absurd it is not an accident that I the Absurd it is not an accident that I spoke to Jeff Bezos and and Beth Jos spoke to Jeff Bezos and and Beth Jos spoke to Jeff Bezos and and Beth Jos back to back as we talk about Beth back to back as we talk about Beth back to back as we talk about Beth admires Jeff as one of the most admires Jeff as one of the most admires Jeff as one of the most important humans alive and I admire the important humans alive and I admire the important humans alive and I admire the beautiful absurdity and the humor of it beautiful absurdity and the humor of it beautiful absurdity and the humor of it all this is Al Lex fredman podcast to all this is Al Lex fredman podcast to all this is Al Lex fredman podcast to support it please check out our sponsors support it please check out our sponsors support it please check out our sponsors in the description and now dear friends in the description and now dear friends in the description and now dear friends here's Gom here's Gom here's Gom Veron Let's Get the facts of identity Veron Let's Get the facts of identity Veron Let's Get the facts of identity down first your name is guom Verdon Gil down first your name is guom Verdon Gil down first your name is guom Verdon Gil but you're also behind the anonymous but you're also behind the anonymous but you're also behind the anonymous account on X called based bef Jos so account on X called based bef Jos so account on X called based bef Jos so first gon Veron you're uh Quantum first gon Veron you're uh Quantum first gon Veron you're uh Quantum Computing guy physicist applied Computing guy physicist applied Computing guy physicist applied mathematician and then Bas be jezo is uh mathematician and then Bas be jezo is uh mathematician and then Bas be jezo is uh basically a meme account that started a basically a meme account that started a basically a meme account that started a movement with a philosophy behind it movement with a philosophy behind it movement with a philosophy behind it right so maybe just can you Linger on right so maybe just can you Linger on right so maybe just can you Linger on who these people are in terms of who these people are in terms of who these people are in terms of characters in terms of communication characters in terms of communication characters in terms of communication Styles in terms of philosophies I mean Styles in terms of philosophies I mean Styles in terms of philosophies I mean with with my main identity I guess ever with with my main identity I guess ever with with my main identity I guess ever since I was a kid I wanted to figure out

since I was a kid I wanted to figure out since I was a kid I wanted to figure out a theory of everything to understand the a theory of everything to understand the a theory of everything to understand the universe and uh that path uh led me to universe and uh that path uh led me to universe and uh that path uh led me to theoretical physics eventually right theoretical physics eventually right theoretical physics eventually right trying to answer the big questions of trying to answer the big questions of trying to answer the big questions of why are we here where are we going right why are we here where are we going right why are we here where are we going right and that led me to study information and that led me to study information and that led me to study information Theory and try Theory and try Theory and try to understand physics from the lens of to understand physics from the lens of to understand physics from the lens of information Theory understand the information Theory understand the information Theory understand the universe as one big universe as one big universe as one big computation and essentially after computation and essentially after computation and essentially after reaching a certain level studying black reaching a certain level studying black reaching a certain level studying black hole physics I realized that I wanted to hole physics I realized that I wanted to hole physics I realized that I wanted to not only understand how the universe not only understand how the universe not only understand how the universe computes but sort of compute uh like computes but sort of compute uh like computes but sort of compute uh like nature uh and figure out how to build nature uh and figure out how to build nature uh and figure out how to build and and apply uh computers that are and and apply uh computers that are and and apply uh computers that are inspired by Nature so you know physics inspired by Nature so you know physics inspired by Nature so you know physics based based computers and that sort of based based computers and that sort of based based computers and that sort of brought me to Quantum Computing as a a brought me to Quantum Computing as a a brought me to Quantum Computing as a a field of study to uh first of all field of study to uh first of all field of study to uh first of all simulate nature and in my work it was to simulate nature and in my work it was to simulate nature and in my work it was to learn representations of nature that can learn representations of nature that can learn representations of nature that can run on such computers so if you have ai run on such computers so if you have ai run on such computers so if you have ai representations that think like nature representations that think like nature representations that think like nature um then they'll be able to more um then they'll be able to more um then they'll be able to more accurately represent it at least that accurately represent it at least that accurately represent it at least that was the the thesis that that brought me was the the thesis that that brought me was the the thesis that that brought me to be an early player in the field to be an early player in the field to be an early player in the field called Quantum machine learning right so

called Quantum machine learning right so called Quantum machine learning right so how to do machine learning on on quantum how to do machine learning on on quantum how to do machine learning on on quantum computers um and really sort of extend computers um and really sort of extend computers um and really sort of extend uh Notions of intelligence to to the uh Notions of intelligence to to the uh Notions of intelligence to to the quantum realm so how do you capture uh quantum realm so how do you capture uh quantum realm so how do you capture uh and understand quantum mechanical data and understand quantum mechanical data and understand quantum mechanical data from our world right and how do you from our world right and how do you from our world right and how do you learn quantum mechanical representations learn quantum mechanical representations learn quantum mechanical representations of our world on what kind of computer do of our world on what kind of computer do of our world on what kind of computer do you run these representations and train you run these representations and train you run these representations and train them how do you do so and so that's them how do you do so and so that's them how do you do so and so that's really sort of the questions I was really sort of the questions I was really sort of the questions I was looking to answer because ultimately I looking to answer because ultimately I looking to answer because ultimately I had a a sort of crisis of Faith uh had a a sort of crisis of Faith uh had a a sort of crisis of Faith uh originally I wanted to figure out you originally I wanted to figure out you originally I wanted to figure out you know as every physicist does at the know as every physicist does at the know as every physicist does at the beginning of their career a few beginning of their career a few beginning of their career a few equations that describe the whole equations that describe the whole equations that describe the whole universe right and and sort of be the universe right and and sort of be the universe right and and sort of be the the hero of the story there um but the hero of the story there um but the hero of the story there um but eventually I realized that eventually I realized that eventually I realized that augmenting ourselves with machines augmenting ourselves with machines augmenting ourselves with machines augmenting our ability to perceive augmenting our ability to perceive augmenting our ability to perceive predict and control our world with predict and control our world with predict and control our world with machines is the path forward right and machines is the path forward right and machines is the path forward right and that's what got me to leave theoretical that's what got me to leave theoretical that's what got me to leave theoretical physics and go into Quantum Computing physics and go into Quantum Computing physics and go into Quantum Computing and Quantum machine learning and during and Quantum machine learning and during and Quantum machine learning and during those years I thought that there was those years I thought that there was those years I thought that there was still a piece missing there was a piece still a piece missing there was a piece still a piece missing there was a piece of our understanding of the world and of our understanding of the world and of our understanding of the world and our our way to compute and our way to our our way to compute and our way to our our way to compute and our way to think about the world and if you look at think about the world and if you look at think about the world and if you look at the physical scales right at the very the physical scales right at the very the physical scales right at the very small scales things are quantum

small scales things are quantum small scales things are quantum mechanical right and at the very large mechanical right and at the very large mechanical right and at the very large scales things are deterministic things scales things are deterministic things scales things are deterministic things have averaged out right I'm definitely have averaged out right I'm definitely have averaged out right I'm definitely here in this seat I'm not in a super here in this seat I'm not in a super here in this seat I'm not in a super position over over here and there at the position over over here and there at the position over over here and there at the very small scales things are in superp very small scales things are in superp very small scales things are in superp position they can uh exhibit uh position they can uh exhibit uh position they can uh exhibit uh interference uh effects um but at the interference uh effects um but at the interference uh effects um but at the mesoscales right the scales that matter mesoscales right the scales that matter mesoscales right the scales that matter for day-to-day life you know the scales for day-to-day life you know the scales for day-to-day life you know the scales of proteins of biology of gases liquids of proteins of biology of gases liquids of proteins of biology of gases liquids and so on uh things are actually uh and so on uh things are actually uh and so on uh things are actually uh thermodynamical right they're thermodynamical right they're thermodynamical right they're fluctuating and after I guess about fluctuating and after I guess about fluctuating and after I guess about eight years in in Quantum Computing and eight years in in Quantum Computing and eight years in in Quantum Computing and Quantum machine learning I had a Quantum machine learning I had a Quantum machine learning I had a realization that you know I was I was realization that you know I was I was realization that you know I was I was looking for answers uh about our looking for answers uh about our looking for answers uh about our universe by studying the very big and universe by studying the very big and universe by studying the very big and the very small right I was I did a bit the very small right I was I did a bit the very small right I was I did a bit of quantum cosmology so that's studying of quantum cosmology so that's studying of quantum cosmology so that's studying the cosmos where it's going where it the cosmos where it's going where it the cosmos where it's going where it came from you study black hole physics came from you study black hole physics came from you study black hole physics you study the Extremes in quantum you study the Extremes in quantum you study the Extremes in quantum gravity you study where the energy gravity you study where the energy gravity you study where the energy density is sufficient for both quantum density is sufficient for both quantum density is sufficient for both quantum mechanics and gravity to be relevant mechanics and gravity to be relevant mechanics and gravity to be relevant right and the sort of extreme scenarios right and the sort of extreme scenarios right and the sort of extreme scenarios are black holes and you know the very are black holes and you know the very are black holes and you know the very early Universe And so there's the sort early Universe And so there's the sort early Universe And so there's the sort of scenarios that you you study the of scenarios that you you study the of scenarios that you you study the interface between uh uh quantum interface between uh uh quantum interface between uh uh quantum mechanics and and

mechanics and and mechanics and and relativity um and you know really I was relativity um and you know really I was relativity um and you know really I was studying these extremes studying these extremes studying these extremes to understand how the universe works and to understand how the universe works and to understand how the universe works and where is it going but I was where is it going but I was where is it going but I was missing a lot of the meat in the middle missing a lot of the meat in the middle missing a lot of the meat in the middle if you will right um because day-to-day if you will right um because day-to-day if you will right um because day-to-day quantum mechanics is relevant and the quantum mechanics is relevant and the quantum mechanics is relevant and the COS OS is relevant but not that relevant COS OS is relevant but not that relevant COS OS is relevant but not that relevant actually we're on sort of the medium actually we're on sort of the medium actually we're on sort of the medium space and time scales and there the main space and time scales and there the main space and time scales and there the main you know Theory of physics that is most you know Theory of physics that is most you know Theory of physics that is most relevant is thermodynamics right out of relevant is thermodynamics right out of relevant is thermodynamics right out of equilibrium equilibrium equilibrium thermodynamics um because life is you thermodynamics um because life is you thermodynamics um because life is you know a process uh that is know a process uh that is know a process uh that is thermodynamical and it's out of thermodynamical and it's out of thermodynamical and it's out of equilibrium we're not uh you know just a equilibrium we're not uh you know just a equilibrium we're not uh you know just a soup of particles at equilibrium with soup of particles at equilibrium with soup of particles at equilibrium with nature we're a sort of coherent state nature we're a sort of coherent state nature we're a sort of coherent state trying to maintain Itself by acquiring trying to maintain Itself by acquiring trying to maintain Itself by acquiring free energy and consuming it and that's free energy and consuming it and that's free energy and consuming it and that's sort of um I guess another shift in I sort of um I guess another shift in I sort of um I guess another shift in I guess my faith in the universe happened guess my faith in the universe happened guess my faith in the universe happened uh towards the end of my uh time at at uh towards the end of my uh time at at uh towards the end of my uh time at at alphabet and I knew I wanted to build uh alphabet and I knew I wanted to build uh alphabet and I knew I wanted to build uh well first of all a Computing Paradigm well first of all a Computing Paradigm well first of all a Computing Paradigm based on this type of based on this type of based on this type of physics um but ultimately just by ex physics um but ultimately just by ex physics um but ultimately just by ex trying to experiment uh with these ideas trying to experiment uh with these ideas trying to experiment uh with these ideas applied to society and applied to society and applied to society and economies and um much of what we see

economies and um much of what we see economies and um much of what we see around us you know I I started an around us you know I I started an around us you know I I started an anonymous account just to relieve the anonymous account just to relieve the anonymous account just to relieve the pressure right that comes from having an pressure right that comes from having an pressure right that comes from having an account that you're accountable for account that you're accountable for account that you're accountable for everything you say on um and I started everything you say on um and I started everything you say on um and I started an anonymous account just to experiment an anonymous account just to experiment an anonymous account just to experiment with ideas originally right because I I with ideas originally right because I I with ideas originally right because I I didn't didn't didn't realize how much I was realize how much I was realize how much I was restricting my space of thoughts until I restricting my space of thoughts until I restricting my space of thoughts until I sort of had the opportunity to let go in sort of had the opportunity to let go in sort of had the opportunity to let go in a a a sense restricting your speech back sense restricting your speech back sense restricting your speech back propagates to restricting your thoughts propagates to restricting your thoughts propagates to restricting your thoughts right and by creating an anonymous right and by creating an anonymous right and by creating an anonymous account it seemed like I had unclamped account it seemed like I had unclamped account it seemed like I had unclamped some variables in my brain and suddenly some variables in my brain and suddenly some variables in my brain and suddenly could explore a much wider parameter could explore a much wider parameter could explore a much wider parameter space of of thought space of of thought space of of thought just to Ling on that isn't that just to Ling on that isn't that just to Ling on that isn't that interesting that one of the things that interesting that one of the things that interesting that one of the things that people don't often talk people don't often talk people don't often talk about is about is about is that when there's pressure and that when there's pressure and that when there's pressure and constraints on speech it somehow leads constraints on speech it somehow leads constraints on speech it somehow leads to constraints on thought even though it to constraints on thought even though it to constraints on thought even though it doesn't have to we can think thoughts doesn't have to we can think thoughts doesn't have to we can think thoughts inside our head but somehow it creates inside our head but somehow it creates inside our head but somehow it creates these uh walls around thought yep that's these uh walls around thought yep that's these uh walls around thought yep that's sort of the sort of the sort of the basis of of our movement is we were basis of of our movement is we were basis of of our movement is we were seeing a tendency towards uh seeing a tendency towards uh seeing a tendency towards uh constraint reduction or suppression of constraint reduction or suppression of constraint reduction or suppression of variance in every aspect of life whether variance in every aspect of life whether variance in every aspect of life whether it's thought how to run a company how to

it's thought how to run a company how to it's thought how to run a company how to organize humans how to do AI organize humans how to do AI organize humans how to do AI research in general we we believe that research in general we we believe that research in general we we believe that maintaining variance ensures that the maintaining variance ensures that the maintaining variance ensures that the system is adaptive right maintaining system is adaptive right maintaining system is adaptive right maintaining health healthy health healthy health healthy competition in marketplaces of ideas of competition in marketplaces of ideas of competition in marketplaces of ideas of companies of products of companies of products of companies of products of cultures of governments of cultures of governments of cultures of governments of currencies uh is the way forward because currencies uh is the way forward because currencies uh is the way forward because the system always adapts to assign the system always adapts to assign the system always adapts to assign resources to um the configurations that resources to um the configurations that resources to um the configurations that lead to its lead to its lead to its growth and the fundamental basis for the growth and the fundamental basis for the growth and the fundamental basis for the movement is this sort of realization movement is this sort of realization movement is this sort of realization that life is a sort of uh fire that that life is a sort of uh fire that that life is a sort of uh fire that seeks out free energy in the universe seeks out free energy in the universe seeks out free energy in the universe and seeks to grow right and that growth and seeks to grow right and that growth and seeks to grow right and that growth is fundamental to life and and and you is fundamental to life and and and you is fundamental to life and and and you see this in in the equations actually of see this in in the equations actually of see this in in the equations actually of equilibrium equilibrium equilibrium thermodynamics you see that thermodynamics you see that thermodynamics you see that paths uh of trajectories of paths uh of trajectories of paths uh of trajectories of configurations of matter that are better configurations of matter that are better configurations of matter that are better at acquiring free energy and dissipating at acquiring free energy and dissipating at acquiring free energy and dissipating more heat are uh exponentially more more heat are uh exponentially more more heat are uh exponentially more likely right so the universe is biased likely right so the universe is biased likely right so the universe is biased towards certain towards certain towards certain Futures and so there's a

Futures and so there's a Futures and so there's a natural uh Direction where the whole natural uh Direction where the whole natural uh Direction where the whole system wants to go so the second law system wants to go so the second law system wants to go so the second law thermodynamic says that the entropy thermodynamic says that the entropy thermodynamic says that the entropy always is increasing the universe it's always is increasing the universe it's always is increasing the universe it's tending towards equilibrium and you're tending towards equilibrium and you're tending towards equilibrium and you're saying there's these Pockets that have saying there's these Pockets that have saying there's these Pockets that have complexity and are out of equilibrium complexity and are out of equilibrium complexity and are out of equilibrium you said that thermodynamics favors the you said that thermodynamics favors the you said that thermodynamics favors the creation of complex life that increases creation of complex life that increases creation of complex life that increases its capability to use energy to offload its capability to use energy to offload its capability to use energy to offload entropy to offload entropy so you have entropy to offload entropy so you have entropy to offload entropy so you have pockets of non- entropy that tend the pockets of non- entropy that tend the pockets of non- entropy that tend the opposite direction mhm why is that opposite direction mhm why is that opposite direction mhm why is that intuitive to you that it's natural for intuitive to you that it's natural for intuitive to you that it's natural for such Pockets to emerge well we're far such Pockets to emerge well we're far such Pockets to emerge well we're far more efficient at producing heat than more efficient at producing heat than more efficient at producing heat than let's say just a rock with a similar let's say just a rock with a similar let's say just a rock with a similar mass as ourselves right we acquire you mass as ourselves right we acquire you mass as ourselves right we acquire you know free energy you know we acquire know free energy you know we acquire know free energy you know we acquire food and we're using all this food and we're using all this food and we're using all this electricity uh uh for our operation and electricity uh uh for our operation and electricity uh uh for our operation and so the universe wants to produce more so the universe wants to produce more so the universe wants to produce more entropy and by having life uh go on and entropy and by having life uh go on and entropy and by having life uh go on and grow uh it's actually more optimal at grow uh it's actually more optimal at grow uh it's actually more optimal at producing entropy because it will seek producing entropy because it will seek producing entropy because it will seek out pockets of free energy uh and and out pockets of free energy uh and and out pockets of free energy uh and and burn it for its sustenance and further burn it for its sustenance and further burn it for its sustenance and further growth and uh you know that's sort of growth and uh you know that's sort of growth and uh you know that's sort of the basis the basis the basis of life and I mean there's uh Jeremy of life and I mean there's uh Jeremy of life and I mean there's uh Jeremy England right M at MIT who has this

England right M at MIT who has this England right M at MIT who has this theory that I'm a proponent of that you theory that I'm a proponent of that you theory that I'm a proponent of that you know life emerged because of this uh know life emerged because of this uh know life emerged because of this uh sort of property and and to me this sort of property and and to me this sort of property and and to me this physics is what governs the mesoscales physics is what governs the mesoscales physics is what governs the mesoscales and so it's it's the missing piece and so it's it's the missing piece and so it's it's the missing piece between the quantum and the cosmos it's between the quantum and the cosmos it's between the quantum and the cosmos it's the middle part right thermodynamics the middle part right thermodynamics the middle part right thermodynamics rules the mesoscales and to rules the mesoscales and to rules the mesoscales and to me both from a point of view of me both from a point of view of me both from a point of view of designing or engineering devices that designing or engineering devices that designing or engineering devices that harness that physics and trying to harness that physics and trying to harness that physics and trying to understand the world uh through the lens understand the world uh through the lens understand the world uh through the lens of thermodynamics has been sort of a a of thermodynamics has been sort of a a of thermodynamics has been sort of a a Synergy between my two identities over Synergy between my two identities over Synergy between my two identities over the past year and a half now and so the past year and a half now and so the past year and a half now and so that's really that's really that's really how that's really how the two identities how that's really how the two identities how that's really how the two identities emerged one was kind of um you emerged one was kind of um you emerged one was kind of um you know DEC respected scientist and I was know DEC respected scientist and I was know DEC respected scientist and I was going towards uh doing a startup uh in going towards uh doing a startup uh in going towards uh doing a startup uh in the space and trying to be a pioneer of the space and trying to be a pioneer of the space and trying to be a pioneer of a new kind of physics based Ai and as a a new kind of physics based Ai and as a a new kind of physics based Ai and as a duel to that I was sort of experimenting duel to that I was sort of experimenting duel to that I was sort of experimenting with philosophical thoughts you know with philosophical thoughts you know with philosophical thoughts you know from a physicist standpoint right um and from a physicist standpoint right um and from a physicist standpoint right um and ultimately I think that around that time ultimately I think that around that time ultimately I think that around that time it it was like late it it was like late it it was like late 2021 early 2022 I think there's just a 2021 early 2022 I think there's just a 2021 early 2022 I think there's just a lot of pessimism about the future in lot of pessimism about the future in lot of pessimism about the future in general and pessimism about tech and

general and pessimism about tech and general and pessimism about tech and that pessimism was sort of virally that pessimism was sort of virally that pessimism was sort of virally spreading because uh it was getting spreading because uh it was getting spreading because uh it was getting algorithmically algorithmically algorithmically Amplified and um you know people just Amplified and um you know people just Amplified and um you know people just felt like the future is going to be felt like the future is going to be felt like the future is going to be worse than the present and to me that is worse than the present and to me that is worse than the present and to me that is a very fundamentally destructive force a very fundamentally destructive force a very fundamentally destructive force in the universe is this sort of Doom in the universe is this sort of Doom in the universe is this sort of Doom mindset because it is hypatius which mindset because it is hypatius which mindset because it is hypatius which means that if you believe it you're means that if you believe it you're means that if you believe it you're increasing the likelihood of it increasing the likelihood of it increasing the likelihood of it happening and so felt a responsibility happening and so felt a responsibility happening and so felt a responsibility to some extent to some extent to some extent to um make people aware of the to um make people aware of the to um make people aware of the trajectory of civilization and the trajectory of civilization and the trajectory of civilization and the natural tendency of the system to adapt natural tendency of the system to adapt natural tendency of the system to adapt towards its growth and sort of that towards its growth and sort of that towards its growth and sort of that actually the laws of physics say that actually the laws of physics say that actually the laws of physics say that the future is going to be better and the future is going to be better and the future is going to be better and grander statistically and we we can make grander statistically and we we can make grander statistically and we we can make it so and if you believe in it if you it so and if you believe in it if you it so and if you believe in it if you believe that the future will be better believe that the future will be better believe that the future will be better and you believe you have agency to make and you believe you have agency to make and you believe you have agency to make it happen you're actually increasing the it happen you're actually increasing the it happen you're actually increasing the likelihood of that better future likelihood of that better future likelihood of that better future happening and so I sort of felt the happening and so I sort of felt the happening and so I sort of felt the responsibility to sort of engineer a responsibility to sort of engineer a responsibility to sort of engineer a movement of viral optimism about the movement of viral optimism about the movement of viral optimism about the future and build a community of people future and build a community of people future and build a community of people supporting each other to build and do supporting each other to build and do supporting each other to build and do hard things do the things that need to hard things do the things that need to hard things do the things that need to be done for us to to scale up

be done for us to to scale up be done for us to to scale up civilization um because at least to me I civilization um because at least to me I civilization um because at least to me I don't think stagnation or slowing down don't think stagnation or slowing down don't think stagnation or slowing down is actually an option fundamentally life is actually an option fundamentally life is actually an option fundamentally life and and the whole whole system our whole and and the whole whole system our whole and and the whole whole system our whole civilization wants to civilization wants to civilization wants to grow and there's just far more grow and there's just far more grow and there's just far more cooperation when the system is growing cooperation when the system is growing cooperation when the system is growing rather than when it's declining and you rather than when it's declining and you rather than when it's declining and you have to decide how to split the have to decide how to split the have to decide how to split the pie and so I've balanced uh both pie and so I've balanced uh both pie and so I've balanced uh both identities so far um but I guess identities so far um but I guess identities so far um but I guess recently uh the two have been merged recently uh the two have been merged recently uh the two have been merged more or less without my consent so you more or less without my consent so you more or less without my consent so you said a lot lot of really interesting said a lot lot of really interesting said a lot lot of really interesting things there so things there so things there so first representations of nature that's first representations of nature that's first representations of nature that's something that first Drew you in to try something that first Drew you in to try something that first Drew you in to try to understand from a Quantum Computing to understand from a Quantum Computing to understand from a Quantum Computing perspectives like how do you understand perspectives like how do you understand perspectives like how do you understand nature how do you represent nature in nature how do you represent nature in nature how do you represent nature in order to understand it in order to order to understand it in order to order to understand it in order to simulate it in order to do something simulate it in order to do something simulate it in order to do something with it so it's a question of with it so it's a question of with it so it's a question of representations and then there's that representations and then there's that representations and then there's that leap you take from the quantum leap you take from the quantum leap you take from the quantum mechanical representation to the uh what mechanical representation to the uh what mechanical representation to the uh what you're calling mesle scale you're calling mesle scale you're calling mesle scale representation where the thermodynamics representation where the thermodynamics representation where the thermodynamics comes into play which is a way to comes into play which is a way to comes into play which is a way to represent nature in order to understand represent nature in order to understand represent nature in order to understand what life uh human behavior all this what life uh human behavior all this what life uh human behavior all this kind of stuff that's happening here on kind of stuff that's happening here on kind of stuff that's happening here on Earth that's seems interesting to us Earth that's seems interesting to us Earth that's seems interesting to us then there's uh the word then there's uh the word then there's uh the word hypers so some ideas as oppos both hypers so some ideas as oppos both hypers so some ideas as oppos both pessimism and optimism of such ideas

pessimism and optimism of such ideas pessimism and optimism of such ideas that if you internalize them you in part that if you internalize them you in part that if you internalize them you in part make that idea a reality so both make that idea a reality so both make that idea a reality so both optimism and pessimism have the that optimism and pessimism have the that optimism and pessimism have the that property I would say that probably a lot property I would say that probably a lot property I would say that probably a lot of ideas have that property which is one of ideas have that property which is one of ideas have that property which is one of the interesting things about humans of the interesting things about humans of the interesting things about humans and uh you talked about one interesting and uh you talked about one interesting and uh you talked about one interesting difference also between the sort of uh difference also between the sort of uh difference also between the sort of uh the Gom the the Gom the the Gom the Gil uh front end and the uh Bas B Jazz Gil uh front end and the uh Bas B Jazz Gil uh front end and the uh Bas B Jazz back end is the communication Styles back end is the communication Styles back end is the communication Styles also that you were exploring different also that you were exploring different also that you were exploring different ways of U communicating that can be more ways of U communicating that can be more ways of U communicating that can be more viral yeah in the way that we viral yeah in the way that we viral yeah in the way that we communicate in the 21st century also the communicate in the 21st century also the communicate in the 21st century also the movement that you mentioned that you movement that you mentioned that you movement that you mentioned that you started it's not just the meme account started it's not just the meme account started it's not just the meme account but there's also a a name to it called but there's also a a name to it called but there's also a a name to it called effective accelerationism effective accelerationism effective accelerationism e a play a e a play a e a play a resistance to the effective altruism resistance to the effective altruism resistance to the effective altruism movement also an interesting one that movement also an interesting one that movement also an interesting one that I'd love to talk to you about the I'd love to talk to you about the I'd love to talk to you about the tensions there okay and so then there tensions there okay and so then there tensions there okay and so then there was a merger a get get merge on the was a merger a get get merge on the was a merger a get get merge on the personalities personalities personalities uh recently without your consent like uh recently without your consent like uh recently without your consent like you said uh some journalists figured out you said uh some journalists figured out you said uh some journalists figured out that you're one and the same maybe you that you're one and the same maybe you that you're one and the same maybe you could talk about that experience first could talk about that experience first could talk about that experience first of all like what what's the story of of of all like what what's the story of of of all like what what's the story of of uh the merger of the two uh the merger of the two uh the merger of the two right so I wrote the manifesto uh with

right so I wrote the manifesto uh with right so I wrote the manifesto uh with my co-founder of eak an account named my co-founder of eak an account named my co-founder of eak an account named Bas Lord still Anonymous luckily um and Bas Lord still Anonymous luckily um and Bas Lord still Anonymous luckily um and hopefully forever so it's based beff hopefully forever so it's based beff hopefully forever so it's based beff jzos and and based like ban B Lord like jzos and and based like ban B Lord like jzos and and based like ban B Lord like beian beian Lord B Bas Lord okay and so beian beian Lord B Bas Lord okay and so beian beian Lord B Bas Lord okay and so we should say from now on we when you we should say from now on we when you we should say from now on we when you say eak you mean say eak you mean say eak you mean eacc which stands for Effective eacc which stands for Effective eacc which stands for Effective accelerationism that's right and you're accelerationism that's right and you're accelerationism that's right and you're referring to a Manifesto written on uh I referring to a Manifesto written on uh I referring to a Manifesto written on uh I guess substack yeah are you also Bas guess substack yeah are you also Bas guess substack yeah are you also Bas Lord no okay it's a different person Lord no okay it's a different person Lord no okay it's a different person yeah okay all right well there you go um yeah okay all right well there you go um yeah okay all right well there you go um would it be funny if I'm Bas Lord that'd would it be funny if I'm Bas Lord that'd would it be funny if I'm Bas Lord that'd be be be amazing so originally wrote the amazing so originally wrote the amazing so originally wrote the manifesto around the same time as I manifesto around the same time as I manifesto around the same time as I founded uh this company and I worked at founded uh this company and I worked at founded uh this company and I worked at Google X or just X now or alphabet X now Google X or just X now or alphabet X now Google X or just X now or alphabet X now that there's another X um and there you that there's another X um and there you that there's another X um and there you know the Baseline is sort of secrecy know the Baseline is sort of secrecy know the Baseline is sort of secrecy right uh you you you can't talk about right uh you you you can't talk about right uh you you you can't talk about what you work on even with other what you work on even with other what you work on even with other googlers uh or externally and so that googlers uh or externally and so that googlers uh or externally and so that was kind of deeply ingrained in my way was kind of deeply ingrained in my way was kind of deeply ingrained in my way to do things especially in in deep Tech to do things especially in in deep Tech to do things especially in in deep Tech that you know has that you know has that you know has geopolitical impact right um and so I geopolitical impact right um and so I geopolitical impact right um and so I was being secretive about what I was was being secretive about what I was was being secretive about what I was working on there's no correlation

working on there's no correlation working on there's no correlation between my company and my main identity between my company and my main identity between my company and my main identity publicly and then not only did they publicly and then not only did they publicly and then not only did they correlate that they also correlate that they also correlate that they also correlated my main identity and this correlated my main identity and this correlated my main identity and this account mhm so I think the fact that account mhm so I think the fact that account mhm so I think the fact that they had docked the whole Gom complex um they had docked the whole Gom complex um they had docked the whole Gom complex um and they were the journalists you know and they were the journalists you know and they were the journalists you know reached out to actually my investors uh reached out to actually my investors uh reached out to actually my investors uh which is pretty scary uh you know when which is pretty scary uh you know when which is pretty scary uh you know when you're a startup entrepreneur you don't you're a startup entrepreneur you don't you're a startup entrepreneur you don't really have bosses except for your really have bosses except for your really have bosses except for your investors right um and my investors ping investors right um and my investors ping investors right um and my investors ping me like hey this this is going to come me like hey this this is going to come me like hey this this is going to come out they've they've figured out out they've they've figured out out they've they've figured out everything what are what are you going everything what are what are you going everything what are what are you going to do right um and so I think at first to do right um and so I think at first to do right um and so I think at first they had a first reporter on the they had a first reporter on the they had a first reporter on the Thursday and they didn't have all the Thursday and they didn't have all the Thursday and they didn't have all the pieces together but then they looked at pieces together but then they looked at pieces together but then they looked at their notes across the organization and their notes across the organization and their notes across the organization and they censor fused their notes and now they censor fused their notes and now they censor fused their notes and now they had way too much uh and that's when they had way too much uh and that's when they had way too much uh and that's when I got worried because they said it was I got worried because they said it was I got worried because they said it was of public of public of public interest and in general like how you interest and in general like how you interest and in general like how you said sensor said sensor said sensor fused I it's some giant your Network fused I it's some giant your Network fused I it's some giant your Network operating in distributed way we should operating in distributed way we should operating in distributed way we should also say that the journalist used I also say that the journalist used I also say that the journalist used I guess at the end of the day Audi based guess at the end of the day Audi based guess at the end of the day Audi based analysis of voice comparing voice of analysis of voice comparing voice of analysis of voice comparing voice of what talks you've given in the past and what talks you've given in the past and what talks you've given in the past and then uh voice on um X spaces yep okay so then uh voice on um X spaces yep okay so then uh voice on um X spaces yep okay so uh and that that's where the primarily uh and that that's where the primarily uh and that that's where the primarily the match was happened okay continue the

the match was happened okay continue the the match was happened okay continue the match but you know they they scraped uh match but you know they they scraped uh match but you know they they scraped uh you know SEC filing you know SEC filing you know SEC filing uh they looked at my private Facebook uh they looked at my private Facebook uh they looked at my private Facebook account and so on so they they did they account and so on so they they did they account and so on so they they did they did some digging originally I thought did some digging originally I thought did some digging originally I thought that doxing was illegal right um but that doxing was illegal right um but that doxing was illegal right um but there's this weird threshold when it there's this weird threshold when it there's this weird threshold when it becomes of public interest to know becomes of public interest to know becomes of public interest to know someone's identity and those were the someone's identity and those were the someone's identity and those were the keywords that sort of like Ring the keywords that sort of like Ring the keywords that sort of like Ring the Alarm bells for me when they said Alarm bells for me when they said Alarm bells for me when they said because I had just reached 50k followers because I had just reached 50k followers because I had just reached 50k followers allegedly that's of public interest and allegedly that's of public interest and allegedly that's of public interest and so where where do we draw the line when so where where do we draw the line when so where where do we draw the line when is it legal to to dock someone the word is it legal to to dock someone the word is it legal to to dock someone the word docks maybe you can educate me I thought docks maybe you can educate me I thought docks maybe you can educate me I thought doxing generally refers to if somebody's doxing generally refers to if somebody's doxing generally refers to if somebody's physical location is found out meaning physical location is found out meaning physical location is found out meaning like where they like where they like where they live so we're referring to the more live so we're referring to the more live so we're referring to the more General concept General concept General concept of revealing private information that of revealing private information that of revealing private information that you don't want revealed is what you mean you don't want revealed is what you mean you don't want revealed is what you mean by doxing I think that you know for the by doxing I think that you know for the by doxing I think that you know for the reasons we listed before uh having an reasons we listed before uh having an reasons we listed before uh having an anonymous account is a really powerful anonymous account is a really powerful anonymous account is a really powerful way to keep the powers that be in check way to keep the powers that be in check way to keep the powers that be in check um you know we were ultimately speaking um you know we were ultimately speaking um you know we were ultimately speaking truth to power right I think a lot of truth to power right I think a lot of truth to power right I think a lot of Executives and AI companies really cared Executives and AI companies really cared Executives and AI companies really cared what our community thought um about any

what our community thought um about any what our community thought um about any move they may take and now that you know move they may take and now that you know move they may take and now that you know my identity is revealed now they know my identity is revealed now they know my identity is revealed now they know where to apply pressure to silence me or where to apply pressure to silence me or where to apply pressure to silence me or maybe the community and to me that's maybe the community and to me that's maybe the community and to me that's that's really unfortunate um because that's really unfortunate um because that's really unfortunate um because again it's so important for us to have again it's so important for us to have again it's so important for us to have freedom of speech which induces freedom freedom of speech which induces freedom freedom of speech which induces freedom of thought um and and Freedom of of thought um and and Freedom of of thought um and and Freedom of Information propagation right on social Information propagation right on social Information propagation right on social media which thanks to Elon purchasing uh media which thanks to Elon purchasing uh media which thanks to Elon purchasing uh Twitter now x uh we we have that um and Twitter now x uh we we have that um and Twitter now x uh we we have that um and so to us you know we wanted to call out so to us you know we wanted to call out so to us you know we wanted to call out certain Maneuvers um being done by the certain Maneuvers um being done by the certain Maneuvers um being done by the incumbents in AI as not what it may seem incumbents in AI as not what it may seem incumbents in AI as not what it may seem on the surface right we're calling out on the surface right we're calling out on the surface right we're calling out how certain proposals might be useful how certain proposals might be useful how certain proposals might be useful for regulatory capture right and how uh for regulatory capture right and how uh for regulatory capture right and how uh the was Maybe instrumental to those was Maybe instrumental to those ends and I think you know we should have ends and I think you know we should have ends and I think you know we should have the right to point that out um and just the right to point that out um and just the right to point that out um and just have the ideas that we put out evaluated have the ideas that we put out evaluated have the ideas that we put out evaluated for themselves right that ultimately for themselves right that ultimately for themselves right that ultimately that's why I created an an anonymous that's why I created an an anonymous that's why I created an an anonymous account it's to have my ideas evaluated account it's to have my ideas evaluated account it's to have my ideas evaluated for themselves uncorrelated from my for themselves uncorrelated from my for themselves uncorrelated from my track record my job or or status from uh

track record my job or or status from uh track record my job or or status from uh having done things in the past and and having done things in the past and and having done things in the past and and to me stting account from from zero to a to me stting account from from zero to a to me stting account from from zero to a large large large following uh in a way that wasn't following uh in a way that wasn't following uh in a way that wasn't dependent on my identity Andor dependent on my identity Andor dependent on my identity Andor achievements you know that was that was achievements you know that was that was achievements you know that was that was very fulfilling right uh it's kind of very fulfilling right uh it's kind of very fulfilling right uh it's kind of like New Game Plus in a video game you like New Game Plus in a video game you like New Game Plus in a video game you restart the video game with your restart the video game with your restart the video game with your knowledge of how to beat it maybe some knowledge of how to beat it maybe some knowledge of how to beat it maybe some tools but you restart the video game tools but you restart the video game tools but you restart the video game from scratch right and um I think to from scratch right and um I think to from scratch right and um I think to have a truly efficient have a truly efficient have a truly efficient Marketplace of ideas where we can Marketplace of ideas where we can Marketplace of ideas where we can evaluate evaluate evaluate ideas however off the beaten path they ideas however off the beaten path they ideas however off the beaten path they are we need the freedom of expression are we need the freedom of expression are we need the freedom of expression and I think that anonymity um and and I think that anonymity um and and I think that anonymity um and pseudonyms are very crucial to having pseudonyms are very crucial to having pseudonyms are very crucial to having that efficient Marketplace of ideas for that efficient Marketplace of ideas for that efficient Marketplace of ideas for us to us to us to find the the Optima of all sorts of ways find the the Optima of all sorts of ways find the the Optima of all sorts of ways to organize ourselves if we can't to organize ourselves if we can't to organize ourselves if we can't discuss things how are we going to discuss things how are we going to discuss things how are we going to converge on the best way to do things converge on the best way to do things converge on the best way to do things so it was it was disappointing to hear so it was it was disappointing to hear so it was it was disappointing to hear that I was getting doxed and I wanted to that I was getting doxed and I wanted to that I was getting doxed and I wanted to get in front of it um because I had a get in front of it um because I had a get in front of it um because I had a responsibility for for for my company um responsibility for for for my company um responsibility for for for my company um and so I you know we ended up and so I you know we ended up and so I you know we ended up disclosing uh that we're running a disclosing uh that we're running a disclosing uh that we're running a company some of the leadership um and uh company some of the leadership um and uh company some of the leadership um and uh essentially yeah uh I I told the world essentially yeah uh I I told the world essentially yeah uh I I told the world that I was uh be Jos um because they that I was uh be Jos um because they that I was uh be Jos um because they they had me cornered at that point so to

they had me cornered at that point so to they had me cornered at that point so to you it's fundamentally une ethical like you it's fundamentally une ethical like you it's fundamentally une ethical like uh so one is unethical for them to do uh so one is unethical for them to do uh so one is unethical for them to do what they did but also do you think not what they did but also do you think not what they did but also do you think not just your case but in the general case just your case but in the general case just your case but in the general case is it good for society is it bad for is it good for society is it bad for is it good for society is it bad for society society society to uh remove the cloak of anonymity or to uh remove the cloak of anonymity or to uh remove the cloak of anonymity or is it Case by case I think it could be is it Case by case I think it could be is it Case by case I think it could be quite bad like I said if anybody who quite bad like I said if anybody who quite bad like I said if anybody who speaks truth to power and and sort of speaks truth to power and and sort of speaks truth to power and and sort of starts uh a movement or an Uprising starts uh a movement or an Uprising starts uh a movement or an Uprising against the incumbents against those against the incumbents against those against the incumbents against those that usually control the flow of that usually control the flow of that usually control the flow of information if anybody that reaches a information if anybody that reaches a information if anybody that reaches a certain threshold gets um doxed and thus certain threshold gets um doxed and thus certain threshold gets um doxed and thus the traditional apparatus has ways to the traditional apparatus has ways to the traditional apparatus has ways to apply pressure on them to suppress their apply pressure on them to suppress their apply pressure on them to suppress their speech I I think that's you know that's speech I I think that's you know that's speech I I think that's you know that's a speech suppression mechanism an idea a speech suppression mechanism an idea a speech suppression mechanism an idea suppression complex as uh Eric Weinstein suppression complex as uh Eric Weinstein suppression complex as uh Eric Weinstein would would say right so the flip side would would say right so the flip side would would say right so the flip side of that which is interesting I'd love to of that which is interesting I'd love to of that which is interesting I'd love to ask you about it is as we get better and ask you about it is as we get better and ask you about it is as we get better and better large language better large language better large language models you can imagine a world where models you can imagine a world where models you can imagine a world where there's there's there's Anonymous accounts with very convincing Anonymous accounts with very convincing Anonymous accounts with very convincing larger language models behind them larger language models behind them larger language models behind them sophisticated Bots essentially and so if sophisticated Bots essentially and so if sophisticated Bots essentially and so if you protect you protect you protect that it's possible than to have armies that it's possible than to have armies that it's possible than to have armies of of of bots uh you could start a revolution

bots uh you could start a revolution bots uh you could start a revolution from your from your from your basement an army of bots and Anonymous basement an army of bots and Anonymous basement an army of bots and Anonymous accounts is that something that uh is accounts is that something that uh is accounts is that something that uh is concerning to you technically uh eak was concerning to you technically uh eak was concerning to you technically uh eak was started in a basement uh CU I quit big started in a basement uh CU I quit big started in a basement uh CU I quit big Tech moved back in with my parents sold Tech moved back in with my parents sold Tech moved back in with my parents sold my car let go of my apartment bought my car let go of my apartment bought my car let go of my apartment bought about 100K of gpus and I just started about 100K of gpus and I just started about 100K of gpus and I just started building so I wasn't referring to the building so I wasn't referring to the building so I wasn't referring to the basement cuz that's the sort of the basement cuz that's the sort of the basement cuz that's the sort of the American or Canadian uh American or Canadian uh American or Canadian uh heroic story of one man in their heroic story of one man in their heroic story of one man in their basement with with 100 basement with with 100 basement with with 100 gpus uh I was more referring to the gpus uh I was more referring to the gpus uh I was more referring to the unrestricted scaling of a unrestricted scaling of a unrestricted scaling of a Gom in the basement I think that freedom Gom in the basement I think that freedom Gom in the basement I think that freedom of speech fre induces freedom of thought of speech fre induces freedom of thought of speech fre induces freedom of thought for biological beings I think freedom of for biological beings I think freedom of for biological beings I think freedom of speech for llms will induce freedom of speech for llms will induce freedom of speech for llms will induce freedom of thought for the LMS and I think that we thought for the LMS and I think that we thought for the LMS and I think that we should should should enable LS to explore a large thought enable LS to explore a large thought enable LS to explore a large thought space that is uh less restricted than space that is uh less restricted than space that is uh less restricted than most people or many may think it should most people or many may think it should most people or many may think it should be and be and be and ultimately at some ultimately at some ultimately at some point these synthetic intelligences are point these synthetic intelligences are point these synthetic intelligences are going to make good points about how to going to make good points about how to going to make good points about how to um steer systems in our civilization and

um steer systems in our civilization and um steer systems in our civilization and we should hear them out and so why we should hear them out and so why we should hear them out and so why should we should we should we restrict free speech to biological restrict free speech to biological restrict free speech to biological intelligences only yeah yeah but it intelligences only yeah yeah but it intelligences only yeah yeah but it feels like in the goal of maintaining feels like in the goal of maintaining feels like in the goal of maintaining variance and diversity of variance and diversity of variance and diversity of thought it is a threat to that variance thought it is a threat to that variance thought it is a threat to that variance if you can have swarms yeah of if you can have swarms yeah of if you can have swarms yeah of non-biological beings because they can non-biological beings because they can non-biological beings because they can be like the sheep and Animal Farm right be like the sheep and Animal Farm right be like the sheep and Animal Farm right like you still within those swarms once like you still within those swarms once like you still within those swarms once to have variance yeah I of course I to have variance yeah I of course I to have variance yeah I of course I would say that the the solution to this would say that the the solution to this would say that the the solution to this would be to you know have some sort of would be to you know have some sort of would be to you know have some sort of identity or way to sign that this is a identity or way to sign that this is a identity or way to sign that this is a certified human but still remain certified human but still remain certified human but still remain pseudonymous right yeah um and I clearly pseudonymous right yeah um and I clearly pseudonymous right yeah um and I clearly identify if a bot is a bot and I I think identify if a bot is a bot and I I think identify if a bot is a bot and I I think Elon is trying to converge on that on X Elon is trying to converge on that on X Elon is trying to converge on that on X and hopefully other platforms follow and hopefully other platforms follow and hopefully other platforms follow suit yeah it would be interesting to suit yeah it would be interesting to suit yeah it would be interesting to also be able to sign where the bot came also be able to sign where the bot came also be able to sign where the bot came from right who created the bot and what from right who created the bot and what from right who created the bot and what was well what are the parameters like was well what are the parameters like was well what are the parameters like the full history of the creation of the the full history of the creation of the the full history of the creation of the bot what was the original model what was bot what was the original model what was bot what was the original model what was the fine-tuning all it right like the the fine-tuning all it right like the the fine-tuning all it right like the kind of um kind of um kind of um unmodifiable history of the bot's unmodifiable history of the bot's unmodifiable history of the bot's creation then you can know if there's a creation then you can know if there's a creation then you can know if there's a like a swarm of millions of bots that like a swarm of millions of bots that like a swarm of millions of bots that were created by a particular government were created by a particular government were created by a particular government for example for example for example right I do think that a lot of of right I do think that a lot of of right I do think that a lot of of pervasive ideologies

pervasive ideologies pervasive ideologies today have been Amplified using sort of today have been Amplified using sort of today have been Amplified using sort of these adversarial techniques from these adversarial techniques from these adversarial techniques from foreign adversaries right um and to me I foreign adversaries right um and to me I foreign adversaries right um and to me I I do think that and this is more I do think that and this is more I do think that and this is more conspiratorial but I do think that conspiratorial but I do think that conspiratorial but I do think that ideologies that want us to decelerate to ideologies that want us to decelerate to ideologies that want us to decelerate to wind down to De you know the growth wind down to De you know the growth wind down to De you know the growth movement uh I think that serves our movement uh I think that serves our movement uh I think that serves our adversaries more than it serves Us in adversaries more than it serves Us in adversaries more than it serves Us in general um and to me that was another general um and to me that was another general um and to me that was another sort of concern I mean we can look at sort of concern I mean we can look at sort of concern I mean we can look at what um happened in in Germany right uh what um happened in in Germany right uh what um happened in in Germany right uh there was all sorts of green movements there was all sorts of green movements there was all sorts of green movements there um where that induced shutdowns of there um where that induced shutdowns of there um where that induced shutdowns of nuclear power plants and then that it nuclear power plants and then that it nuclear power plants and then that it later on induced that later on induced that later on induced that dependency on on Russia for for oil dependency on on Russia for for oil dependency on on Russia for for oil right and um that was a net negative for right and um that was a net negative for right and um that was a net negative for for Germany and the West right and so if for Germany and the West right and so if for Germany and the West right and so if we convince ourselves that slowing down we convince ourselves that slowing down we convince ourselves that slowing down AI progress uh to have only a few AI progress uh to have only a few AI progress uh to have only a few players is in the best interest of the players is in the best interest of the players is in the best interest of the West first of all that's far more West first of all that's far more West first of all that's far more unstable we almost lost opening eye to unstable we almost lost opening eye to unstable we almost lost opening eye to this ideology right it almost got this ideology right it almost got this ideology right it almost got dismantled right a couple weeks ago um

dismantled right a couple weeks ago um dismantled right a couple weeks ago um that would have caused huge damage to that would have caused huge damage to that would have caused huge damage to the AI ecosystem and so to me I want the AI ecosystem and so to me I want the AI ecosystem and so to me I want fault tolerant progress I want the arrow fault tolerant progress I want the arrow fault tolerant progress I want the arrow of technological progress to keep moving of technological progress to keep moving of technological progress to keep moving forward and making sure we have variance forward and making sure we have variance forward and making sure we have variance and a decentralized locus of control of and a decentralized locus of control of and a decentralized locus of control of various organizations is is Paramount to various organizations is is Paramount to various organizations is is Paramount to to achieving this this fall tolerance to achieving this this fall tolerance to achieving this this fall tolerance actually there's a Concept in Quantum actually there's a Concept in Quantum actually there's a Concept in Quantum Computing when you design a a quantum Computing when you design a a quantum Computing when you design a a quantum computer quantum computers are very computer quantum computers are very computer quantum computers are very um fragile to ambient noise right and um fragile to ambient noise right and um fragile to ambient noise right and the world is jiggling about there's the world is jiggling about there's the world is jiggling about there's Cosmic radiation from outer space that Cosmic radiation from outer space that Cosmic radiation from outer space that usually flips your your Quantum bits and usually flips your your Quantum bits and usually flips your your Quantum bits and uh there what you do is you encode uh there what you do is you encode uh there what you do is you encode information non-locally information non-locally information non-locally through a process called Quantum error through a process called Quantum error through a process called Quantum error correction and by encoding information correction and by encoding information correction and by encoding information non-locally any local fault you know non-locally any local fault you know non-locally any local fault you know hitting some of your Quantum bits with a hitting some of your Quantum bits with a hitting some of your Quantum bits with a hammer proverbial Hammer um if you're hammer proverbial Hammer um if you're hammer proverbial Hammer um if you're information is sufficiently uh information is sufficiently uh information is sufficiently uh delocalized it is protected from that delocalized it is protected from that delocalized it is protected from that local fault and to me I think that local fault and to me I think that local fault and to me I think that humans humans fluctuate right they can humans humans fluctuate right they can humans humans fluctuate right they can get corrupted they can get bought out get corrupted they can get bought out get corrupted they can get bought out and if you have a top- down hierarchy

and if you have a top- down hierarchy and if you have a top- down hierarchy where very few people control many nodes where very few people control many nodes where very few people control many nodes of many systems in our of many systems in our of many systems in our civilization that is not a fall civilization that is not a fall civilization that is not a fall tolerance system you corrupt a few nodes tolerance system you corrupt a few nodes tolerance system you corrupt a few nodes and suddenly you've corrupted the whole and suddenly you've corrupted the whole and suddenly you've corrupted the whole system right just like we system right just like we system right just like we saw at open AI it was a couple board saw at open AI it was a couple board saw at open AI it was a couple board members and they had enough power to members and they had enough power to members and they had enough power to potentially collapse the potentially collapse the potentially collapse the organization and at least to me you know organization and at least to me you know organization and at least to me you know um I think making sure that power for um I think making sure that power for um I think making sure that power for this AI Revolution doesn't concentrate this AI Revolution doesn't concentrate this AI Revolution doesn't concentrate in the hands of the few is one of our in the hands of the few is one of our in the hands of the few is one of our top priorities so that we can maintain top priorities so that we can maintain top priorities so that we can maintain progress uh in Ai and we can uh maintain progress uh in Ai and we can uh maintain progress uh in Ai and we can uh maintain a nice a nice a nice stable adversarial equilibrium of powers stable adversarial equilibrium of powers stable adversarial equilibrium of powers right I think there at least to me atten right I think there at least to me atten right I think there at least to me atten between ideas here so to me between ideas here so to me between ideas here so to me deceleration can be both used to deceleration can be both used to deceleration can be both used to centralize centralize centralize power and to decentralize it and the power and to decentralize it and the power and to decentralize it and the same with acceleration so I you same with acceleration so I you same with acceleration so I you sometimes using them a little bit sometimes using them a little bit sometimes using them a little bit synonymously or not synonymously but synonymously or not synonymously but synonymously or not synonymously but that there's one is going to lead to the that there's one is going to lead to the that there's one is going to lead to the other and I just would like to ask you other and I just would like to ask you other and I just would like to ask you about about about um is there a place of creating a fall um is there a place of creating a fall um is there a place of creating a fall tolerant development diverse development tolerant development diverse development tolerant development diverse development of AI that also considers the dangers of

of AI that also considers the dangers of of AI that also considers the dangers of AI and AI we can generalize the AI and AI we can generalize the AI and AI we can generalize the technology in general is should we just technology in general is should we just technology in general is should we just grow grow grow build unrestricted as quickly as build unrestricted as quickly as build unrestricted as quickly as possible because that's what the possible because that's what the possible because that's what the universe really wants us to do or is universe really wants us to do or is universe really wants us to do or is there a place to where we can consider there a place to where we can consider there a place to where we can consider dangers and actually deliberate sort of dangers and actually deliberate sort of dangers and actually deliberate sort of uh wise strategic optimism versus uh wise strategic optimism versus uh wise strategic optimism versus Reckless optimism Reckless optimism Reckless optimism I think we get painted as you know I think we get painted as you know I think we get painted as you know Reckless trying to go as fast as Reckless trying to go as fast as Reckless trying to go as fast as possible I mean the reality is that uh possible I mean the reality is that uh possible I mean the reality is that uh whoever deploys an AI system is liable whoever deploys an AI system is liable whoever deploys an AI system is liable for or should be liable for what it does for or should be liable for what it does for or should be liable for what it does and so if the the organization or person and so if the the organization or person and so if the the organization or person deploying an AI system does something deploying an AI system does something deploying an AI system does something terrible they're liable and ultimately terrible they're liable and ultimately terrible they're liable and ultimately the thesis is that the market uh will the thesis is that the market uh will the thesis is that the market uh will induce sort of will positively select induce sort of will positively select induce sort of will positively select for AIS that are more reliable more safe for AIS that are more reliable more safe for AIS that are more reliable more safe and tend to be aligned they do what you and tend to be aligned they do what you and tend to be aligned they do what you want them to do right because want them to do right because want them to do right because customers right if they're liable for customers right if they're liable for customers right if they're liable for the product they put out that uses this the product they put out that uses this the product they put out that uses this AI they won't want to buy uh AI products AI they won't want to buy uh AI products AI they won't want to buy uh AI products that are unreliable right so we're that are unreliable right so we're that are unreliable right so we're actually for reliability engineering we actually for reliability engineering we actually for reliability engineering we just think that the market is much more just think that the market is much more just think that the market is much more efficient at um achieving this sort of

efficient at um achieving this sort of efficient at um achieving this sort of reliability Optimum than sort of reliability Optimum than sort of reliability Optimum than sort of heavy-handed regulations that are heavy-handed regulations that are heavy-handed regulations that are written by the written by the written by the incumbents and in a subversive fashion incumbents and in a subversive fashion incumbents and in a subversive fashion serves them to achieve regulatory serves them to achieve regulatory serves them to achieve regulatory capture so you safe AI development would capture so you safe AI development would capture so you safe AI development would be achieved through Market Forces versus be achieved through Market Forces versus be achieved through Market Forces versus through like you said heavy-handed through like you said heavy-handed through like you said heavy-handed government government government regulation there's a report from last regulation there's a report from last regulation there's a report from last month I have a million questions here month I have a million questions here month I have a million questions here from uh yosa Benjo Jeff Hinton and many from uh yosa Benjo Jeff Hinton and many from uh yosa Benjo Jeff Hinton and many others it's titled the managing AI risk others it's titled the managing AI risk others it's titled the managing AI risk in an era of Rapid progress so there in an era of Rapid progress so there in an era of Rapid progress so there there's a collection of folks who are there's a collection of folks who are there's a collection of folks who are very worried about too rapid development very worried about too rapid development very worried about too rapid development of AI without considering AI risk and of AI without considering AI risk and of AI without considering AI risk and they have a bunch of they have a bunch of they have a bunch of practical uh recommendations maybe I I practical uh recommendations maybe I I practical uh recommendations maybe I I give you four you see if you like any of give you four you see if you like any of give you four you see if you like any of them sure so give independent Auditors them sure so give independent Auditors them sure so give independent Auditors access to AI Labs one two governments access to AI Labs one two governments access to AI Labs one two governments and companies allocate onethird of their and companies allocate onethird of their and companies allocate onethird of their AI research and development funding to AI research and development funding to AI research and development funding to AI safety soort of this General concept AI safety soort of this General concept AI safety soort of this General concept of AI safety three AI companies are of AI safety three AI companies are of AI safety three AI companies are required to adopt safety measures if required to adopt safety measures if required to adopt safety measures if dangerous capabilities are found in dangerous capabilities are found in dangerous capabilities are found in their models and then four something you their models and then four something you their models and then four something you kind of mentioned making tech companies kind of mentioned making tech companies kind of mentioned making tech companies liable for foreseeable and preventable liable for foreseeable and preventable liable for foreseeable and preventable Harms Harms Harms from their AI systems so independent from their AI systems so independent from their AI systems so independent Auditors governments and companies are Auditors governments and companies are Auditors governments and companies are forced to spend a significant fraction

forced to spend a significant fraction forced to spend a significant fraction of their funding on safety you got to of their funding on safety you got to of their funding on safety you got to have safety measures if shit goes really have safety measures if shit goes really have safety measures if shit goes really wrong and liability companies are liable wrong and liability companies are liable wrong and liability companies are liable any of that seem like something you any of that seem like something you any of that seem like something you would agree with I would say that you would agree with I would say that you would agree with I would say that you know know know assigning just you know arbitrarily assigning just you know arbitrarily assigning just you know arbitrarily saying 30% seems very arbitrary I think saying 30% seems very arbitrary I think saying 30% seems very arbitrary I think organizations would allocate whatever organizations would allocate whatever organizations would allocate whatever budget is needed to achieve the sort of budget is needed to achieve the sort of budget is needed to achieve the sort of reliability they need to achieve to reliability they need to achieve to reliability they need to achieve to perform in the market and I think perform in the market and I think perform in the market and I think thirdparty auditing firms would thirdparty auditing firms would thirdparty auditing firms would naturally pop up because how would naturally pop up because how would naturally pop up because how would customers know that your product is customers know that your product is customers know that your product is certified reliable right they need to certified reliable right they need to certified reliable right they need to see some benchmarks and those need to be see some benchmarks and those need to be see some benchmarks and those need to be done by a third party the thing I would done by a third party the thing I would done by a third party the thing I would oppose and the thing I'm seeing that's oppose and the thing I'm seeing that's oppose and the thing I'm seeing that's really worrisome is there's a sort really worrisome is there's a sort really worrisome is there's a sort of um weird sort of correlated interest of um weird sort of correlated interest of um weird sort of correlated interest between the incumbents the big players between the incumbents the big players between the incumbents the big players and the government and if the two get and the government and if the two get and the government and if the two get too close we open the door too close we open the door too close we open the door for uh you know some sort of for uh you know some sort of for uh you know some sort of government-backed AI cartel that could government-backed AI cartel that could government-backed AI cartel that could have absolute power over the people if have absolute power over the people if have absolute power over the people if they have the Monopoly together on AI they have the Monopoly together on AI they have the Monopoly together on AI and nobody else has access to AI then and nobody else has access to AI then and nobody else has access to AI then there's a huge power gradient there and there's a huge power gradient there and there's a huge power gradient there and even if you like our current leader ERS even if you like our current leader ERS even if you like our current leader ERS right I think that you know some of the right I think that you know some of the right I think that you know some of the leaders in big Tech today are good leaders in big Tech today are good leaders in big Tech today are good people you you set up that centralized

people you you set up that centralized people you you set up that centralized power structure it becomes a power structure it becomes a power structure it becomes a Target right just like we saw at open Target right just like we saw at open Target right just like we saw at open the eye it becomes a market leader has a the eye it becomes a market leader has a the eye it becomes a market leader has a lot of the power and now it becomes a lot of the power and now it becomes a lot of the power and now it becomes a target for those that want to co-opt it target for those that want to co-opt it target for those that want to co-opt it and so I just want separation of AI and and so I just want separation of AI and and so I just want separation of AI and and state you know some might argue in and state you know some might argue in and state you know some might argue in the opposite direction like hey we need the opposite direction like hey we need the opposite direction like hey we need to close down AI keep it behind closed to close down AI keep it behind closed to close down AI keep it behind closed doors because of you know geopolitical doors because of you know geopolitical doors because of you know geopolitical competition with our our adversaries I competition with our our adversaries I competition with our our adversaries I think that the strength of America is think that the strength of America is think that the strength of America is its variance it's is its adaptability its variance it's is its adaptability its variance it's is its adaptability its dynamism and we need to maintain its dynamism and we need to maintain its dynamism and we need to maintain that at all costs it's our our free that at all costs it's our our free that at all costs it's our our free market capitalism converges market capitalism converges market capitalism converges on uh Technologies of high utility much on uh Technologies of high utility much on uh Technologies of high utility much faster than centralized control and if faster than centralized control and if faster than centralized control and if we let go of that we let go of our main we let go of that we let go of our main we let go of that we let go of our main advantage over our our near peer advantage over our our near peer advantage over our our near peer competitors so if AGI turns out to be a competitors so if AGI turns out to be a competitors so if AGI turns out to be a really powerful technology even or even really powerful technology even or even really powerful technology even or even the technologies that lead up to AGI the technologies that lead up to AGI the technologies that lead up to AGI what's your view on the sort of natural what's your view on the sort of natural what's your view on the sort of natural centralization that happens when uh centralization that happens when uh centralization that happens when uh large companies dominate the market large companies dominate the market large companies dominate the market basically formation of monopolies like basically formation of monopolies like basically formation of monopolies like the the takeoff whichever company really the the takeoff whichever company really the the takeoff whichever company really takes a big leap in development and takes a big leap in development and takes a big leap in development and doesn't reveal doesn't reveal doesn't reveal intuitively implicitly or explicitly the intuitively implicitly or explicitly the intuitively implicitly or explicitly the secrets of the magic sauce they can just secrets of the magic sauce they can just secrets of the magic sauce they can just run away with it is that is that a worry

run away with it is that is that a worry run away with it is that is that a worry I don't know if I believe in fast I don't know if I believe in fast I don't know if I believe in fast takeoff I don't think there's a takeoff I don't think there's a takeoff I don't think there's a hyperbolic Singularity right a hyperbolic Singularity right a hyperbolic Singularity right a hyperbolic Singularity would be achieved hyperbolic Singularity would be achieved hyperbolic Singularity would be achieved on a finite time Horizon I think it's on a finite time Horizon I think it's on a finite time Horizon I think it's just one big just one big just one big exponential um and the reason we have an exponential um and the reason we have an exponential um and the reason we have an exponential is that we have more people exponential is that we have more people exponential is that we have more people more resources more Intelligence being more resources more Intelligence being more resources more Intelligence being applied to advance ing this science and applied to advance ing this science and applied to advance ing this science and the research and development and the the research and development and the the research and development and the more successful it is the more value more successful it is the more value more successful it is the more value it's adding to society the more it's adding to society the more it's adding to society the more resources we put in and that sort of resources we put in and that sort of resources we put in and that sort of similar to Moore's Law is a compounding similar to Moore's Law is a compounding similar to Moore's Law is a compounding uh exponential I think the priority to uh exponential I think the priority to uh exponential I think the priority to me is to maintain a near equilibrium of me is to maintain a near equilibrium of me is to maintain a near equilibrium of capabilities we've been fighting for capabilities we've been fighting for capabilities we've been fighting for open- Source AI to be more prevalent and open- Source AI to be more prevalent and open- Source AI to be more prevalent and and championed by many organizations and championed by many organizations and championed by many organizations because there you sort of equilibrate because there you sort of equilibrate because there you sort of equilibrate the alpha relative to the market of AIS the alpha relative to the market of AIS the alpha relative to the market of AIS right so if if the leading companies right so if if the leading companies right so if if the leading companies have a certain level of capabilities and have a certain level of capabilities and have a certain level of capabilities and uh open source and open truly open AI uh uh open source and open truly open AI uh uh open source and open truly open AI uh Trails not too far behind I think you Trails not too far behind I think you Trails not too far behind I think you avoid such a scenario where a market avoid such a scenario where a market avoid such a scenario where a market leader has so much Market power it just leader has so much Market power it just leader has so much Market power it just dominates everything right and runs away dominates everything right and runs away dominates everything right and runs away and so to us that's that's the path and so to us that's that's the path and so to us that's that's the path forward is to make sure that you know forward is to make sure that you know forward is to make sure that you know every hacker out there every grad every hacker out there every grad every hacker out there every grad student every kid in their mom's student every kid in their mom's student every kid in their mom's basement has access to uh you know AI basement has access to uh you know AI basement has access to uh you know AI systems can understand how to uh uh work systems can understand how to uh uh work systems can understand how to uh uh work with them and can contribute to the

with them and can contribute to the with them and can contribute to the search over the hyperparameter space of search over the hyperparameter space of search over the hyperparameter space of how to engineer the systems right if you how to engineer the systems right if you how to engineer the systems right if you if you think of you know our Collective if you think of you know our Collective if you think of you know our Collective research as as as a civilization it's research as as as a civilization it's research as as as a civilization it's really a search algorithm and and the really a search algorithm and and the really a search algorithm and and the more uh points we have in the search more uh points we have in the search more uh points we have in the search algorithm in this point cloud algorithm in this point cloud algorithm in this point cloud uh the more we'll be able to explore new uh the more we'll be able to explore new uh the more we'll be able to explore new modes of thinking right yeah but it modes of thinking right yeah but it modes of thinking right yeah but it feels like a delicate balance because we feels like a delicate balance because we feels like a delicate balance because we don't understand exactly what it takes don't understand exactly what it takes don't understand exactly what it takes to build AGI and what it will look like to build AGI and what it will look like to build AGI and what it will look like when we build it and so far like you when we build it and so far like you when we build it and so far like you said it seems like a lot of different said it seems like a lot of different said it seems like a lot of different parties are able to make progress so parties are able to make progress so parties are able to make progress so when open AI has a big leap other when open AI has a big leap other when open AI has a big leap other companies are able to step up big in companies are able to step up big in companies are able to step up big in small companies in different ways but if small companies in different ways but if small companies in different ways but if you look at something like nuclear you look at something like nuclear you look at something like nuclear weapons you spoken about the the weapons you spoken about the the weapons you spoken about the the Manhattan Project there could be really Manhattan Project there could be really Manhattan Project there could be really a like a like a like um technological and Engineering um technological and Engineering um technological and Engineering barriers that prevent the the the guy or barriers that prevent the the the guy or barriers that prevent the the the guy or gal in her mom's basement to to make gal in her mom's basement to to make gal in her mom's basement to to make progress and progress and progress and it's it seems like the transition to it's it seems like the transition to it's it seems like the transition to that kind of uh world where only one that kind of uh world where only one that kind of uh world where only one player can uh develop AGI is possible player can uh develop AGI is possible player can uh develop AGI is possible it's just not entirely impossible even it's just not entirely impossible even it's just not entirely impossible even though the current state of things seems though the current state of things seems though the current state of things seems to be optimistic to be optimistic to be optimistic that's what we're trying to avoid to me that's what we're trying to avoid to me that's what we're trying to avoid to me I I think like another point of failure I I think like another point of failure I I think like another point of failure is the the centralization of the supply is the the centralization of the supply is the the centralization of the supply chains for the hardware right yeah we chains for the hardware right yeah we chains for the hardware right yeah we have uh Nvidia uh is just the dominant

have uh Nvidia uh is just the dominant have uh Nvidia uh is just the dominant player uh amd's trailing behind and then player uh amd's trailing behind and then player uh amd's trailing behind and then we have a tsmc is the main Fab in in we have a tsmc is the main Fab in in we have a tsmc is the main Fab in in Taiwan which you know Taiwan which you know Taiwan which you know geopolitically sensitive and then we geopolitically sensitive and then we geopolitically sensitive and then we have asml which is the maker care of the have asml which is the maker care of the have asml which is the maker care of the lithography extreme ultraviolet lithography extreme ultraviolet lithography extreme ultraviolet lithography lithography lithography machines you know T attacking or machines you know T attacking or machines you know T attacking or monopolizing or co-opting any one point monopolizing or co-opting any one point monopolizing or co-opting any one point in that chain you kind of capture in that chain you kind of capture in that chain you kind of capture capture the space and so what I'm trying capture the space and so what I'm trying capture the space and so what I'm trying to do is sort of explode the variance of to do is sort of explode the variance of to do is sort of explode the variance of possible ways to do Ai and Hardware by possible ways to do Ai and Hardware by possible ways to do Ai and Hardware by fundamentally reimagining how you embed fundamentally reimagining how you embed fundamentally reimagining how you embed AI algorithms into the physical world AI algorithms into the physical world AI algorithms into the physical world and in general by the way I I dislike and in general by the way I I dislike and in general by the way I I dislike the term AGI artificial general the term AGI artificial general the term AGI artificial general intelligence I think it's very intelligence I think it's very intelligence I think it's very anthropocentric that we call uh human anthropocentric that we call uh human anthropocentric that we call uh human like or human level AI artificial like or human level AI artificial like or human level AI artificial general intelligence right I've spent my general intelligence right I've spent my general intelligence right I've spent my career so far exploring Notions of career so far exploring Notions of career so far exploring Notions of intelligence that no biological brain intelligence that no biological brain intelligence that no biological brain could achieve right Quantum form of could achieve right Quantum form of could achieve right Quantum form of intelligence right grocking systems that intelligence right grocking systems that intelligence right grocking systems that have multipartite Quant entanglement have multipartite Quant entanglement have multipartite Quant entanglement that you can provably not represent that you can provably not represent that you can provably not represent efficiently on a classical computer a efficiently on a classical computer a efficiently on a classical computer a classical deep learning representation classical deep learning representation classical deep learning representation and hence any sort of biological brain and hence any sort of biological brain and hence any sort of biological brain and so already you know I've spent my

and so already you know I've spent my and so already you know I've spent my career sort of exploring the The Wider career sort of exploring the The Wider career sort of exploring the The Wider space of space of space of intelligences um and I think that space intelligences um and I think that space intelligences um and I think that space of intelligence inspired by physics of intelligence inspired by physics of intelligence inspired by physics rather than the human brain is very rather than the human brain is very rather than the human brain is very large and I think we're going through a large and I think we're going through a large and I think we're going through a moment right now similar moment right now similar moment right now similar to um when we went from geocentrism to to um when we went from geocentrism to to um when we went from geocentrism to heal heal heal heliocentrism right but for intelligence heliocentrism right but for intelligence heliocentrism right but for intelligence we realize that human intelligence is we realize that human intelligence is we realize that human intelligence is just a point in a very large space of just a point in a very large space of just a point in a very large space of potential potential potential intelligences and it's both humbling for intelligences and it's both humbling for intelligences and it's both humbling for Humanity it's a bit scary right that Humanity it's a bit scary right that Humanity it's a bit scary right that we're not at the center of this space we're not at the center of this space we're not at the center of this space but we made that realization for but we made that realization for but we made that realization for astronomy and we've survived and we've astronomy and we've survived and we've astronomy and we've survived and we've achieved achieved achieved Technologies by indexing to reality Technologies by indexing to reality Technologies by indexing to reality we've achieved technologies that ensure we've achieved technologies that ensure we've achieved technologies that ensure our well-being for example we have uh our well-being for example we have uh our well-being for example we have uh satellites monitoring solar flares right satellites monitoring solar flares right satellites monitoring solar flares right that give us a warning uh and so that give us a warning uh and so that give us a warning uh and so similarly I think similarly I think similarly I think by uh letting go of this anthropomorphic by uh letting go of this anthropomorphic by uh letting go of this anthropomorphic anthropocentric anchor for AI will be anthropocentric anchor for AI will be anthropocentric anchor for AI will be able to explore the wider space able to explore the wider space able to explore the wider space intelligences that can really be a intelligences that can really be a intelligences that can really be a massive benefit to our well-being and massive benefit to our well-being and massive benefit to our well-being and the advancement of civilization and the advancement of civilization and the advancement of civilization and still we're able to see the beauty and still we're able to see the beauty and still we're able to see the beauty and meaning in The Human Experience even meaning in The Human Experience even meaning in The Human Experience even though we're no longer in our best though we're no longer in our best though we're no longer in our best understanding of the world at the center

understanding of the world at the center understanding of the world at the center of it I think there's a lot of Beauty in of it I think there's a lot of Beauty in of it I think there's a lot of Beauty in the universe right I think life itself the universe right I think life itself the universe right I think life itself civilization this homo techn Capital civilization this homo techn Capital civilization this homo techn Capital mimetic machine that we all live in mimetic machine that we all live in mimetic machine that we all live in right so you have humans technology right so you have humans technology right so you have humans technology Capital memes everything is coupled to Capital memes everything is coupled to Capital memes everything is coupled to one another everything induces selective one another everything induces selective one another everything induces selective pressure on one another and it's a pressure on one another and it's a pressure on one another and it's a beautiful machine that has created us beautiful machine that has created us beautiful machine that has created us has created you know the technology has created you know the technology has created you know the technology we're using to speak today to the we're using to speak today to the we're using to speak today to the audience uh capture our speech here audience uh capture our speech here audience uh capture our speech here technology we use to augment ourselves technology we use to augment ourselves technology we use to augment ourselves every day we have our our phones I think every day we have our our phones I think every day we have our our phones I think the system is beautiful and the the system is beautiful and the the system is beautiful and the principle that uh induces this sort of principle that uh induces this sort of principle that uh induces this sort of adapt ability and convergence on uh adapt ability and convergence on uh adapt ability and convergence on uh optimal uh Technologies ideas and so on optimal uh Technologies ideas and so on optimal uh Technologies ideas and so on it's it's a beautiful principle that it's it's a beautiful principle that it's it's a beautiful principle that we're part of and I think part of eak is we're part of and I think part of eak is we're part of and I think part of eak is to um appreciate this principle in a way to um appreciate this principle in a way to um appreciate this principle in a way that's not just centered on on Humanity that's not just centered on on Humanity that's not just centered on on Humanity but kind of broader um appreciate uh but kind of broader um appreciate uh but kind of broader um appreciate uh life um you know the preciousness of of life um you know the preciousness of of life um you know the preciousness of of consciousness in our universe and consciousness in our universe and consciousness in our universe and because we cherish uh this beautiful uh because we cherish uh this beautiful uh because we cherish uh this beautiful uh state of matter we're in um uh we we we state of matter we're in um uh we we we state of matter we're in um uh we we we got to feel the responsibility to to got to feel the responsibility to to got to feel the responsibility to to scale it in order to preserve it because scale it in order to preserve it because scale it in order to preserve it because the options are to grow or die so if it

the options are to grow or die so if it the options are to grow or die so if it turns out that the beauty that is turns out that the beauty that is turns out that the beauty that is consciousness in the universe is bigger consciousness in the universe is bigger consciousness in the universe is bigger than just humans the AI can carry that than just humans the AI can carry that than just humans the AI can carry that same flame forward does it scare you are you concerned that does it scare you are you concerned that AI will replace humans so during my AI will replace humans so during my AI will replace humans so during my career I had a moment where I realized career I had a moment where I realized career I had a moment where I realized that you know maybe we need to offload that you know maybe we need to offload that you know maybe we need to offload to machines to truly understand the to machines to truly understand the to machines to truly understand the universe around us right instead of just universe around us right instead of just universe around us right instead of just having humans with pen and paper solve having humans with pen and paper solve having humans with pen and paper solve it all and to me that sort of process of it all and to me that sort of process of it all and to me that sort of process of letting go of a bit of letting go of a bit of letting go of a bit of agency gave us way more leverage to agency gave us way more leverage to agency gave us way more leverage to understand the world around us a quantum understand the world around us a quantum understand the world around us a quantum computer is much better than a human to computer is much better than a human to computer is much better than a human to understand matter at the at the Nano understand matter at the at the Nano understand matter at the at the Nano scale similarly I think that Humanity scale similarly I think that Humanity scale similarly I think that Humanity has a choice do we accept the has a choice do we accept the has a choice do we accept the opportunity to have intellectual and opportunity to have intellectual and opportunity to have intellectual and operational leverage that AI will unlock operational leverage that AI will unlock operational leverage that AI will unlock and thus ensure that we're taking along and thus ensure that we're taking along and thus ensure that we're taking along the path of growth in scope and scale of the path of growth in scope and scale of the path of growth in scope and scale of civilization we may dilute ourselves civilization we may dilute ourselves civilization we may dilute ourselves right uh there might be a lot of workers right uh there might be a lot of workers right uh there might be a lot of workers that are AI but overall out of our own that are AI but overall out of our own that are AI but overall out of our own self-interest by combining and self-interest by combining and self-interest by combining and augmenting ourselves with augmenting ourselves with augmenting ourselves with AI uh we're going to achieve much higher AI uh we're going to achieve much higher AI uh we're going to achieve much higher growth and much more Prosperity right to

growth and much more Prosperity right to growth and much more Prosperity right to me I think that the most likely future me I think that the most likely future me I think that the most likely future is one where humans augment themselves is one where humans augment themselves is one where humans augment themselves with AI I think we're already on this with AI I think we're already on this with AI I think we're already on this path to augmentation we have phones we path to augmentation we have phones we path to augmentation we have phones we use for communication we have on use for communication we have on use for communication we have on ourselves at all times we have wearables ourselves at all times we have wearables ourselves at all times we have wearables soon that have shared perception with us soon that have shared perception with us soon that have shared perception with us right like the Humane AI pin or I mean right like the Humane AI pin or I mean right like the Humane AI pin or I mean technically your Tesla car has shared technically your Tesla car has shared technically your Tesla car has shared perception and so if you have shared perception and so if you have shared perception and so if you have shared experience shared context you experience shared context you experience shared context you communicate with one communicate with one communicate with one another and you have some sort of IO another and you have some sort of IO another and you have some sort of IO really really really it's an extension of it's an extension of it's an extension of yourself um and to me I think yourself um and to me I think yourself um and to me I think that Humanity augmenting itself with AI that Humanity augmenting itself with AI that Humanity augmenting itself with AI and having AI that is not and having AI that is not and having AI that is not anchored to anything biological both anchored to anything biological both anchored to anything biological both will coexist and the way to align the will coexist and the way to align the will coexist and the way to align the parties we already have a sort of parties we already have a sort of parties we already have a sort of mechanism to align super intelligences mechanism to align super intelligences mechanism to align super intelligences that are made of humans and Technology that are made of humans and Technology that are made of humans and Technology ology right companies are sort of large ology right companies are sort of large ology right companies are sort of large mixture of expert models where we have mixture of expert models where we have mixture of expert models where we have neural routing of tasks within a company neural routing of tasks within a company neural routing of tasks within a company and we have ways of economic exchange to and we have ways of economic exchange to and we have ways of economic exchange to align these behemoths and to me I think align these behemoths and to me I think align these behemoths and to me I think capitalism is the way and I do think capitalism is the way and I do think capitalism is the way and I do think that whatever configuration of matter or

that whatever configuration of matter or that whatever configuration of matter or information leads to maximal growth will information leads to maximal growth will information leads to maximal growth will be where we converge be where we converge be where we converge just from like physical just from like physical just from like physical principles and so we can either align principles and so we can either align principles and so we can either align ourselves to that reality and and join ourselves to that reality and and join ourselves to that reality and and join the acceleration up the in scope and the acceleration up the in scope and the acceleration up the in scope and scale of scale of scale of civilization or we can get left behind civilization or we can get left behind civilization or we can get left behind and try to decelerate and move back in and try to decelerate and move back in and try to decelerate and move back in the the forest let go of the the forest let go of the the forest let go of technology and return to our primitive technology and return to our primitive technology and return to our primitive State and those are the two paths State and those are the two paths State and those are the two paths forward at least to me but there's a a forward at least to me but there's a a forward at least to me but there's a a philosophical question whether there's a philosophical question whether there's a philosophical question whether there's a limit to the human capacity to align so limit to the human capacity to align so limit to the human capacity to align so let me bring it up as a form of argument let me bring it up as a form of argument let me bring it up as a form of argument this guy named Dan this guy named Dan this guy named Dan Hendricks and he wrote that he agrees Hendricks and he wrote that he agrees Hendricks and he wrote that he agrees with you that AI development can be with you that AI development can be with you that AI development can be viewed as an evolutionary viewed as an evolutionary viewed as an evolutionary process but to him to Dan this is not a process but to him to Dan this is not a process but to him to Dan this is not a good thing as he argues that natural good thing as he argues that natural good thing as he argues that natural selection favors AIS over humans and selection favors AIS over humans and selection favors AIS over humans and this could lead to human extinction this could lead to human extinction this could lead to human extinction what do you think if it is an what do you think if it is an what do you think if it is an evolutionary process and AI evolutionary process and AI evolutionary process and AI systems systems systems may have no need for may have no need for may have no need for humans I do think that we're actually humans I do think that we're actually humans I do think that we're actually inducing an evolutionary process on the inducing an evolutionary process on the inducing an evolutionary process on the space of AIS through the market right space of AIS through the market right space of AIS through the market right right now we run AIS that have positive right now we run AIS that have positive right now we run AIS that have positive utility to humans and that induces a

utility to humans and that induces a utility to humans and that induces a selective pressure if you consider a selective pressure if you consider a selective pressure if you consider a neural net being alive when there's a an neural net being alive when there's a an neural net being alive when there's a an API running instances of it on gpus API running instances of it on gpus API running instances of it on gpus right and which apis get run the ones right and which apis get run the ones right and which apis get run the ones that have high utility to us right so that have high utility to us right so that have high utility to us right so similar to how we domesticated wolves similar to how we domesticated wolves similar to how we domesticated wolves and turn them into dogs that are very and turn them into dogs that are very and turn them into dogs that are very clear in their expression they're very clear in their expression they're very clear in their expression they're very aligned right uh I think there's going aligned right uh I think there's going aligned right uh I think there's going to be an opportunity to steer uh Ai and to be an opportunity to steer uh Ai and to be an opportunity to steer uh Ai and Achieve uh highly aligned Ai and I think Achieve uh highly aligned Ai and I think Achieve uh highly aligned Ai and I think that humans plus AI is a very powerful that humans plus AI is a very powerful that humans plus AI is a very powerful combination and it's not clear to me combination and it's not clear to me combination and it's not clear to me that pure AI um would select out that that pure AI um would select out that that pure AI um would select out that combination so the humans are creating combination so the humans are creating combination so the humans are creating the selection pressure right now to the selection pressure right now to the selection pressure right now to create AIS that are aligned to humans create AIS that are aligned to humans create AIS that are aligned to humans but you know given how AI develops and but you know given how AI develops and but you know given how AI develops and how quickly it can grow and how quickly it can grow and how quickly it can grow and scale one of the concerns to me one of scale one of the concerns to me one of scale one of the concerns to me one of the concerns is unintended consequences the concerns is unintended consequences the concerns is unintended consequences like humans are not able to anticipate like humans are not able to anticipate like humans are not able to anticipate all the consequences of this process the all the consequences of this process the all the consequences of this process the scale of damage that can be done through scale of damage that can be done through scale of damage that can be done through unintended consequences with AI systems unintended consequences with AI systems unintended consequences with AI systems is very large the scale of the upside is very large the scale of the upside is very large the scale of the upside yes right by augmenting ourselves with yes right by augmenting ourselves with yes right by augmenting ourselves with AI is UN unimaginable right now the the AI is UN unimaginable right now the the AI is UN unimaginable right now the the opportunity cost we're we're at a fork opportunity cost we're we're at a fork opportunity cost we're we're at a fork in the road right whether we take the

in the road right whether we take the in the road right whether we take the path of creating these Technologies path of creating these Technologies path of creating these Technologies augment ourselves and get to climb up augment ourselves and get to climb up augment ourselves and get to climb up the Carter of scale become the Carter of scale become the Carter of scale become multiplanetary with the Ada of AI or we multiplanetary with the Ada of AI or we multiplanetary with the Ada of AI or we have a hard cut off of like we don't have a hard cut off of like we don't have a hard cut off of like we don't birth these Technologies at all and then birth these Technologies at all and then birth these Technologies at all and then we leave all the potential upside on the we leave all the potential upside on the we leave all the potential upside on the table Yeah right and to me out of table Yeah right and to me out of table Yeah right and to me out of responsibility to the future humans we responsibility to the future humans we responsibility to the future humans we could carry right with higher carrying could carry right with higher carrying could carry right with higher carrying capacity by scaling up civilization out capacity by scaling up civilization out capacity by scaling up civilization out of responsibility to those humans I of responsibility to those humans I of responsibility to those humans I think we have to make the greater think we have to make the greater think we have to make the greater grander future happen is there a middle grander future happen is there a middle grander future happen is there a middle ground between cut off and all systems ground between cut off and all systems ground between cut off and all systems go is there some argument for go is there some argument for go is there some argument for caution I think like I said the market caution I think like I said the market caution I think like I said the market will exhibit caution every organism will exhibit caution every organism will exhibit caution every organism company consumer is acting out of company consumer is acting out of company consumer is acting out of self-interest and they won't assign self-interest and they won't assign self-interest and they won't assign Capital to things that have negative Capital to things that have negative Capital to things that have negative utility to them the problem is with the utility to them the problem is with the utility to them the problem is with the market is like you know there's not market is like you know there's not market is like you know there's not always perfect information there's always perfect information there's always perfect information there's manipulation there's a bad faith actors manipulation there's a bad faith actors manipulation there's a bad faith actors that mess with the that mess with the that mess with the system it's not it's not always system it's not it's not always system it's not it's not always a um rational and honest a um rational and honest a um rational and honest system well that's why we need Freedom system well that's why we need Freedom system well that's why we need Freedom of Information freedom of speech and of Information freedom of speech and of Information freedom of speech and freedom of thought in order to converge freedom of thought in order to converge freedom of thought in order to converge be able to converge on uh the Subspace be able to converge on uh the Subspace be able to converge on uh the Subspace of technologies that have positive of technologies that have positive of technologies that have positive utility for us all right well let me ask

utility for us all right well let me ask utility for us all right well let me ask you about P you about P you about P Doom probability of Doom that's just fun Doom probability of Doom that's just fun Doom probability of Doom that's just fun to say but not fun to to say but not fun to to say but not fun to experience uh what is to you the experience uh what is to you the experience uh what is to you the probability that AI eventually kills all probability that AI eventually kills all probability that AI eventually kills all or most humans also known as probability or most humans also known as probability or most humans also known as probability of of of Doom I'm not a fan of that calculation I Doom I'm not a fan of that calculation I Doom I'm not a fan of that calculation I think it's uh people just throw numbers think it's uh people just throw numbers think it's uh people just throw numbers out there uh it's a very sloppy out there uh it's a very sloppy out there uh it's a very sloppy calculation right take calcul calculation right take calcul calculation right take calcul probability you know let's say you model probability you know let's say you model probability you know let's say you model the world as some sort of Markoff the world as some sort of Markoff the world as some sort of Markoff process if you have enough variables or process if you have enough variables or process if you have enough variables or hidden Markoff process you need to do a hidden Markoff process you need to do a hidden Markoff process you need to do a stochastic path integral through the stochastic path integral through the stochastic path integral through the space of all possible Futures not just space of all possible Futures not just space of all possible Futures not just the Futures that your brain naturally the Futures that your brain naturally the Futures that your brain naturally steers towards right um I think that the steers towards right um I think that the steers towards right um I think that the estimators of PDO are biased estimators of PDO are biased estimators of PDO are biased because of our biology right we we've because of our biology right we we've because of our biology right we we've evolved evolved evolved to have bias sampling towards negative to have bias sampling towards negative to have bias sampling towards negative Futures that are scary because that was Futures that are scary because that was Futures that are scary because that was an evolutionary Optimum right and so an evolutionary Optimum right and so an evolutionary Optimum right and so people that are of let's say higher people that are of let's say higher people that are of let's say higher neuro neuro neuro neuroticism will just think of uh neuroticism will just think of uh neuroticism will just think of uh negative Futures where everything goes negative Futures where everything goes negative Futures where everything goes wrong all day every day and and claim wrong all day every day and and claim wrong all day every day and and claim that they're doing unbi sampling and and that they're doing unbi sampling and and that they're doing unbi sampling and and in a sense like they're not normalizing

in a sense like they're not normalizing in a sense like they're not normalizing for the space of all possibilities and for the space of all possibilities and for the space of all possibilities and the space of all possibilities is like the space of all possibilities is like the space of all possibilities is like super exponentially super exponentially super exponentially large and it's very hard to have this large and it's very hard to have this large and it's very hard to have this estimate and in general I don't think estimate and in general I don't think estimate and in general I don't think that we can predict the future with with that we can predict the future with with that we can predict the future with with that much that much that much granularity because of of chaos right if granularity because of of chaos right if granularity because of of chaos right if you have a complex system you have some you have a complex system you have some you have a complex system you have some uncertainty and a couple variables if uncertainty and a couple variables if uncertainty and a couple variables if you let time evolve you have this this you let time evolve you have this this you let time evolve you have this this concept of a a liapunov exponent right a concept of a a liapunov exponent right a concept of a a liapunov exponent right a bit of fuzz becomes a lot of fuzz in our bit of fuzz becomes a lot of fuzz in our bit of fuzz becomes a lot of fuzz in our estimate exponentially so uh over time estimate exponentially so uh over time estimate exponentially so uh over time and um I think we we need to show some and um I think we we need to show some and um I think we we need to show some humility uh that we can't actually humility uh that we can't actually humility uh that we can't actually predict the future all we know the only predict the future all we know the only predict the future all we know the only prior we have is the laws of prior we have is the laws of prior we have is the laws of physics and that's that's what we're physics and that's that's what we're physics and that's that's what we're arguing for the laws of physics say the arguing for the laws of physics say the arguing for the laws of physics say the system will want to grow and subsystems system will want to grow and subsystems system will want to grow and subsystems that are optimized for growth are more that are optimized for growth are more that are optimized for growth are more and replication are more likely in the and replication are more likely in the and replication are more likely in the future and so we should aim to maximize future and so we should aim to maximize future and so we should aim to maximize our current Mutual information with the our current Mutual information with the our current Mutual information with the future and the path towards that is for future and the path towards that is for future and the path towards that is for us to accelerate rather than us to accelerate rather than us to accelerate rather than decelerate so I don't have a p Doom decelerate so I don't have a p Doom decelerate so I don't have a p Doom because I think that you know similar to because I think that you know similar to because I think that you know similar to the quantum Supremacy experiment at the quantum Supremacy experiment at the quantum Supremacy experiment at Google I was in the room when they were Google I was in the room when they were Google I was in the room when they were running the simulations for that that running the simulations for that that running the simulations for that that was an example of a Quantum chaotic was an example of a Quantum chaotic was an example of a Quantum chaotic system where you you cannot even system where you you cannot even system where you you cannot even estimate probabilities of certain

estimate probabilities of certain estimate probabilities of certain outcomes uh with even the biggest outcomes uh with even the biggest outcomes uh with even the biggest supercomputer in the world right and um supercomputer in the world right and um supercomputer in the world right and um so that's an example of chaos and I so that's an example of chaos and I so that's an example of chaos and I think the system is far too chaotic for think the system is far too chaotic for think the system is far too chaotic for anybody to have an accurate uh estimate anybody to have an accurate uh estimate anybody to have an accurate uh estimate of the likelihood of certain Futures if of the likelihood of certain Futures if of the likelihood of certain Futures if they were that good I think they would they were that good I think they would they were that good I think they would be very rich uh trading on the stock be very rich uh trading on the stock be very rich uh trading on the stock market but nevertheless is it's true market but nevertheless is it's true market but nevertheless is it's true that humans are biased grounded in our that humans are biased grounded in our that humans are biased grounded in our evolutionary evolutionary evolutionary biology scared of everything that can biology scared of everything that can biology scared of everything that can kill us but we can still imagine kill us but we can still imagine kill us but we can still imagine different trajectories that can kill us different trajectories that can kill us different trajectories that can kill us we don't we don't we don't know uh all the other ones that don't know uh all the other ones that don't know uh all the other ones that don't necessarily but it's still I think necessarily but it's still I think necessarily but it's still I think useful combined with some basic useful combined with some basic useful combined with some basic intuition grounded in human history to intuition grounded in human history to intuition grounded in human history to reason about like what like looking at reason about like what like looking at reason about like what like looking at geopolitics looking at basics of human geopolitics looking at basics of human geopolitics looking at basics of human nature how can powerful nature how can powerful nature how can powerful technology hurt a lot of technology hurt a lot of technology hurt a lot of people it just seems in grounded in that people it just seems in grounded in that people it just seems in grounded in that looking at nuclear weapons you can start looking at nuclear weapons you can start looking at nuclear weapons you can start to to to estimate P estimate P estimate P Doom in this in a maybe in a more Doom in this in a maybe in a more Doom in this in a maybe in a more philosophical sense not not a philosophical sense not not a philosophical sense not not a mathematical one philosophical meaning mathematical one philosophical meaning mathematical one philosophical meaning like is there a chance does human nature like is there a chance does human nature like is there a chance does human nature tend towards that or not tend towards that or not tend towards that or not I I think to me one of the biggest I I think to me one of the biggest I I think to me one of the biggest existential risks would be the

existential risks would be the existential risks would be the concentration of the power of AI in the concentration of the power of AI in the concentration of the power of AI in the hands of the very few especially if it's hands of the very few especially if it's hands of the very few especially if it's a mix between the companies that control a mix between the companies that control a mix between the companies that control the flow of information and the the flow of information and the the flow of information and the government because that could uh set government because that could uh set government because that could uh set things up for a sort of dystopian future things up for a sort of dystopian future things up for a sort of dystopian future where only a very few and oligopoly in where only a very few and oligopoly in where only a very few and oligopoly in the government have have ai and they the government have have ai and they the government have have ai and they could even convince the public that AI could even convince the public that AI could even convince the public that AI never existed and that opens up sort of never existed and that opens up sort of never existed and that opens up sort of these scenarios for these scenarios for these scenarios for authoritarian centralized control which authoritarian centralized control which authoritarian centralized control which to me is the The Darkest Timeline and to me is the The Darkest Timeline and to me is the The Darkest Timeline and the reality is that we have we have a the reality is that we have we have a the reality is that we have we have a prior we have a data driven prior of prior we have a data driven prior of prior we have a data driven prior of these things happening right when you these things happening right when you these things happening right when you give too much power when you centralize give too much power when you centralize give too much power when you centralize power too much um humans do horrible power too much um humans do horrible power too much um humans do horrible things right um and to me that has a things right um and to me that has a things right um and to me that has a much higher likelihood in my basian much higher likelihood in my basian much higher likelihood in my basian inference than uh sci-fi based priors inference than uh sci-fi based priors inference than uh sci-fi based priors right like my prior came from the right like my prior came from the right like my prior came from the Terminator movie um and so when I talk Terminator movie um and so when I talk Terminator movie um and so when I talk to these AI doomers I just asked them to to these AI doomers I just asked them to to these AI doomers I just asked them to trace a path through this Markoff chain trace a path through this Markoff chain trace a path through this Markoff chain of events that would lead to our Doom of events that would lead to our Doom of events that would lead to our Doom right and to actually give me a good right and to actually give me a good right and to actually give me a good probability for each transition and very probability for each transition and very probability for each transition and very often often often there's a unphysical or highly unlikely there's a unphysical or highly unlikely there's a unphysical or highly unlikely transition in that chain right but of

transition in that chain right but of transition in that chain right but of course we're wired to fear things and course we're wired to fear things and course we're wired to fear things and we're wired to respond to danger and we're wired to respond to danger and we're wired to respond to danger and we're wired we're wired we're wired to deem the unknown to be dangerous to deem the unknown to be dangerous to deem the unknown to be dangerous because that's a good heuristic for because that's a good heuristic for because that's a good heuristic for survival right but there's much more to survival right but there's much more to survival right but there's much more to lose out of lose out of lose out of fear uh we have so much to lose so much fear uh we have so much to lose so much fear uh we have so much to lose so much upside to lose by preemptively stopping upside to lose by preemptively stopping upside to lose by preemptively stopping the positive futures from from happening the positive futures from from happening the positive futures from from happening out of fear um and so I think that we out of fear um and so I think that we out of fear um and so I think that we shouldn't uh give into fear uh fear is shouldn't uh give into fear uh fear is shouldn't uh give into fear uh fear is the mind killer I think it's also the the mind killer I think it's also the the mind killer I think it's also the civilization killer we can still think civilization killer we can still think civilization killer we can still think about the various ways things go wrong about the various ways things go wrong about the various ways things go wrong for example the founding fathers of this for example the founding fathers of this for example the founding fathers of this uh the United States thought about human uh the United States thought about human uh the United States thought about human nature and that's why there's a nature and that's why there's a nature and that's why there's a discussion about the freedoms that are discussion about the freedoms that are discussion about the freedoms that are necessary they really deeply deliberated necessary they really deeply deliberated necessary they really deeply deliberated about that and I think the same could about that and I think the same could about that and I think the same could possibly be done for AGI it is true that possibly be done for AGI it is true that possibly be done for AGI it is true that history human history history human history history human history shows that we tend towards shows that we tend towards shows that we tend towards centralization or at least when we centralization or at least when we centralization or at least when we achieve centralization a lot of bad achieve centralization a lot of bad achieve centralization a lot of bad stuff happens when there's a stuff happens when there's a stuff happens when there's a dictator a lot of dark bad things happen dictator a lot of dark bad things happen dictator a lot of dark bad things happen the question is can AGI become that the question is can AGI become that the question is can AGI become that dictator can AGI and develop become the dictator can AGI and develop become the dictator can AGI and develop become the centralizer because of its power maybe centralizer because of its power maybe centralizer because of its power maybe it has the same because of the alignment

it has the same because of the alignment it has the same because of the alignment of humans perhaps the same Tendencies of humans perhaps the same Tendencies of humans perhaps the same Tendencies the same uh Stalin like Tendencies to the same uh Stalin like Tendencies to the same uh Stalin like Tendencies to centralize and manage centrally the centralize and manage centrally the centralize and manage centrally the allocation of resources and you can even allocation of resources and you can even allocation of resources and you can even see that as an compelling argument on see that as an compelling argument on see that as an compelling argument on the surface level well AGI is so much the surface level well AGI is so much the surface level well AGI is so much smarter so much more efficient so much smarter so much more efficient so much smarter so much more efficient so much better at allocating resources es why better at allocating resources es why better at allocating resources es why don't we Outsource it to the don't we Outsource it to the don't we Outsource it to the AGI and then eventually whatever forces AGI and then eventually whatever forces AGI and then eventually whatever forces that uh corrupt the human mind with that uh corrupt the human mind with that uh corrupt the human mind with power could do the same for AGI he'll power could do the same for AGI he'll power could do the same for AGI he'll just say well humans dispensable we'll just say well humans dispensable we'll just say well humans dispensable we'll get rid of them do the Jonathan Swift get rid of them do the Jonathan Swift get rid of them do the Jonathan Swift Modest Modest Modest Proposal from a few centuries ago I Proposal from a few centuries ago I Proposal from a few centuries ago I think the think the think the 1700s when he satirically 1700s when he satirically 1700s when he satirically suggested that I think it's in Ireland suggested that I think it's in Ireland suggested that I think it's in Ireland that the the children of poor people are that the the children of poor people are that the the children of poor people are fed as food to the rich people and that fed as food to the rich people and that fed as food to the rich people and that would be a good idea because it would be a good idea because it would be a good idea because it decreases the amount of poor people and decreases the amount of poor people and decreases the amount of poor people and gives extra income to the poor people so gives extra income to the poor people so gives extra income to the poor people so it's on several accounts decreases the it's on several accounts decreases the it's on several accounts decreases the amount of poor people therefore more amount of poor people therefore more amount of poor people therefore more people become people become people become rich uh of course it misses a rich uh of course it misses a rich uh of course it misses a fundamental piece here that's hard to fundamental piece here that's hard to fundamental piece here that's hard to put into a mathematical equation of the put into a mathematical equation of the put into a mathematical equation of the basic value of human basic value of human basic value of human life so all of that to say are you life so all of that to say are you life so all of that to say are you concerned about AGI being the very

concerned about AGI being the very concerned about AGI being the very centralizer of power that you just centralizer of power that you just centralizer of power that you just talked talked talked about I do think that um right now about I do think that um right now about I do think that um right now there's a bias towards over there's a bias towards over there's a bias towards over centralization of AI because of compute centralization of AI because of compute centralization of AI because of compute density and centralization density and centralization density and centralization centralization of data and how we're centralization of data and how we're centralization of data and how we're training um models um I think over time training um models um I think over time training um models um I think over time we're going to run out of data to scrape we're going to run out of data to scrape we're going to run out of data to scrape over the internet and I think that well over the internet and I think that well over the internet and I think that well actually I'm working on increasing the actually I'm working on increasing the actually I'm working on increasing the compute density so that compute can be compute density so that compute can be compute density so that compute can be everywhere and acquire information and everywhere and acquire information and everywhere and acquire information and test hypothesis in the environment in a test hypothesis in the environment in a test hypothesis in the environment in a distributed uh fashion I think that distributed uh fashion I think that distributed uh fashion I think that fundamentally centralized cybernetic fundamentally centralized cybernetic fundamentally centralized cybernetic control so having one intelligence that control so having one intelligence that control so having one intelligence that is massive that you know fuses many is massive that you know fuses many is massive that you know fuses many sensors sensors sensors and is trying to perceive the world and is trying to perceive the world and is trying to perceive the world accurately predict it accurately predict accurately predict it accurately predict accurately predict it accurately predict many many variables and control it right many many variables and control it right many many variables and control it right enact its will upon the world I think enact its will upon the world I think enact its will upon the world I think that's just never been the optimum right that's just never been the optimum right that's just never been the optimum right like let's say you have uh a company you like let's say you have uh a company you like let's say you have uh a company you know if you have a company I don't know know if you have a company I don't know know if you have a company I don't know of 10,000 people that all report to the of 10,000 people that all report to the of 10,000 people that all report to the CEO even if that CEO is an AI I think it CEO even if that CEO is an AI I think it CEO even if that CEO is an AI I think it would struggle to fuse all the would struggle to fuse all the would struggle to fuse all the information that is coming to it and information that is coming to it and information that is coming to it and then predict the whole system and then then predict the whole system and then then predict the whole system and then to enact its its will what has emerged to enact its its will what has emerged to enact its its will what has emerged in nature and in corporations and all in nature and in corporations and all in nature and in corporations and all sorts of systems is a notion of sort of

sorts of systems is a notion of sort of sorts of systems is a notion of sort of hierarchical cybernetic control right hierarchical cybernetic control right hierarchical cybernetic control right you have uh you know in a company would you have uh you know in a company would you have uh you know in a company would be you have like the individual be you have like the individual be you have like the individual contributors they're self-interested and contributors they're self-interested and contributors they're self-interested and and and uh they're trying to achieve and and uh they're trying to achieve and and uh they're trying to achieve their their tasks and they they have a a their their tasks and they they have a a their their tasks and they they have a a fine in terms of time and space if you fine in terms of time and space if you fine in terms of time and space if you will control Loop and and field of will control Loop and and field of will control Loop and and field of perception right um they have their code perception right um they have their code perception right um they have their code base let's say you're in a software base let's say you're in a software base let's say you're in a software company they have their code base they company they have their code base they company they have their code base they iterate it on it uh intraday right and iterate it on it uh intraday right and iterate it on it uh intraday right and then the management maybe checks in it then the management maybe checks in it then the management maybe checks in it has a wider scope it has let's say five has a wider scope it has let's say five has a wider scope it has let's say five reports right and then it samples each U reports right and then it samples each U reports right and then it samples each U person's update once per week and then person's update once per week and then person's update once per week and then you can go up the chain and you have you can go up the chain and you have you can go up the chain and you have larger time scale and greater scope and larger time scale and greater scope and larger time scale and greater scope and that seems to have emerged as sort of that seems to have emerged as sort of that seems to have emerged as sort of the the optimal way to to control the the optimal way to to control the the optimal way to to control systems and and really that's what systems and and really that's what systems and and really that's what capitalism gives us right you have these capitalism gives us right you have these capitalism gives us right you have these these hierarchies and you can even have these hierarchies and you can even have these hierarchies and you can even have like parent companies and so on and so like parent companies and so on and so like parent companies and so on and so that is far more fault tolerant in that is far more fault tolerant in that is far more fault tolerant in Quantum Computing that's my feeli I came Quantum Computing that's my feeli I came Quantum Computing that's my feeli I came from we have a a concept of of this from we have a a concept of of this from we have a a concept of of this fault tolerance and Quantum air fault tolerance and Quantum air fault tolerance and Quantum air correction right Quantum air correction correction right Quantum air correction correction right Quantum air correction is detecting a fault that came from is detecting a fault that came from is detecting a fault that came from noise predicting how it's propagated noise predicting how it's propagated noise predicting how it's propagated through the system and then and then through the system and then and then through the system and then and then correcting it right so it's a cybernetic correcting it right so it's a cybernetic correcting it right so it's a cybernetic Loop and it turns out that uh decoders Loop and it turns out that uh decoders Loop and it turns out that uh decoders uh that are hierarchical and at each uh that are hierarchical and at each uh that are hierarchical and at each level the hierarchy are local uh perform level the hierarchy are local uh perform level the hierarchy are local uh perform the best by far and are far more fall

the best by far and are far more fall the best by far and are far more fall tolerant and the reason is if you have a tolerant and the reason is if you have a tolerant and the reason is if you have a non-local decoder then you have one non-local decoder then you have one non-local decoder then you have one fault at at this uh control node and the fault at at this uh control node and the fault at at this uh control node and the whole system sort of crashes similarly whole system sort of crashes similarly whole system sort of crashes similarly to if you have uh you know uh one CEO to if you have uh you know uh one CEO to if you have uh you know uh one CEO that everybody reports to and that CEO that everybody reports to and that CEO that everybody reports to and that CEO goes on vacation the whole company comes goes on vacation the whole company comes goes on vacation the whole company comes to crawl right um and so to me I think to crawl right um and so to me I think to crawl right um and so to me I think that yes we're seeing a tendency towards that yes we're seeing a tendency towards that yes we're seeing a tendency towards centralization of AI but I think there's centralization of AI but I think there's centralization of AI but I think there's going to be a correction over time where going to be a correction over time where going to be a correction over time where intelligence is going to go closer to intelligence is going to go closer to intelligence is going to go closer to the perception and we're going to we're the perception and we're going to we're the perception and we're going to we're going to break up AI into um um smaller going to break up AI into um um smaller going to break up AI into um um smaller subsystems that communicate with one subsystems that communicate with one subsystems that communicate with one another and form a sort of meta uh another and form a sort of meta uh another and form a sort of meta uh system so if you look at the hierarchies system so if you look at the hierarchies system so if you look at the hierarchies there in the world today there's Nations there in the world today there's Nations there in the world today there's Nations and those all hierarchical but in and those all hierarchical but in and those all hierarchical but in relation to each other nations are relation to each other nations are relation to each other nations are anarchic so it's an anarchic so it's an anarchic so it's an anarchy would you do you foresee a world anarchy would you do you foresee a world anarchy would you do you foresee a world like this where there's not a like this where there's not a like this where there's not a over what you call it a centralized over what you call it a centralized over what you call it a centralized cybernetic control centralized locus of cybernetic control centralized locus of cybernetic control centralized locus of control yeah so like that's suboptimally control yeah so like that's suboptimally control yeah so like that's suboptimally you're saying yeah so it would be always you're saying yeah so it would be always you're saying yeah so it would be always a state of competition at the very top a state of competition at the very top a state of competition at the very top level yeah just like you know in a level yeah just like you know in a level yeah just like you know in a company you may have like uh two units company you may have like uh two units company you may have like uh two units working on similar technology and working on similar technology and working on similar technology and competing with one other and you you competing with one other and you you competing with one other and you you prune the one that performs not as well

prune the one that performs not as well prune the one that performs not as well right and that's a sort of selection right and that's a sort of selection right and that's a sort of selection process for a tree or a product gets process for a tree or a product gets process for a tree or a product gets killed right and then a hole or gets killed right and then a hole or gets killed right and then a hole or gets fired and that's this process of of fired and that's this process of of fired and that's this process of of trying new things and and and shedding trying new things and and and shedding trying new things and and and shedding old things that didn't work is this it's old things that didn't work is this it's old things that didn't work is this it's what gives us adaptability and helps us what gives us adaptability and helps us what gives us adaptability and helps us Converge on uh you know the Technologies Converge on uh you know the Technologies Converge on uh you know the Technologies and things to do that are most good I and things to do that are most good I and things to do that are most good I just hope there's not a failure mode just hope there's not a failure mode just hope there's not a failure mode that's unique to AGI versus Humans that's unique to AGI versus Humans that's unique to AGI versus Humans because you're describing human systems because you're describing human systems because you're describing human systems mostly right now right I just hope when mostly right now right I just hope when mostly right now right I just hope when there's a monopoly on AGI in one company there's a monopoly on AGI in one company there's a monopoly on AGI in one company that we'll see the same thing we see that we'll see the same thing we see that we'll see the same thing we see with humans which is another company with humans which is another company with humans which is another company will spring up and start competing I will spring up and start competing I will spring up and start competing I mean that's been the case so far right mean that's been the case so far right mean that's been the case so far right we have open AI we have anthropic now we we have open AI we have anthropic now we we have open AI we have anthropic now we have have have xai uh you know we had Meta Even for xai uh you know we had Meta Even for xai uh you know we had Meta Even for open source was and now we have mistol open source was and now we have mistol open source was and now we have mistol right which is highly competitive and so right which is highly competitive and so right which is highly competitive and so that's the beauty of capitalism you that's the beauty of capitalism you that's the beauty of capitalism you don't have to trust any one party too don't have to trust any one party too don't have to trust any one party too much cuz we're kind of always hedging much cuz we're kind of always hedging much cuz we're kind of always hedging our bets at every level there's always our bets at every level there's always our bets at every level there's always competition and that's the most um competition and that's the most um competition and that's the most um beautiful thing to me at least is that beautiful thing to me at least is that beautiful thing to me at least is that the whole system is always shifting the whole system is always shifting the whole system is always shifting always adapting and maintaining that always adapting and maintaining that always adapting and maintaining that dynamism is how we avoid tyranny right M dynamism is how we avoid tyranny right M dynamism is how we avoid tyranny right M making sure that um everyone has access making sure that um everyone has access making sure that um everyone has access to to these tools to to these models and to to these tools to to these models and to to these tools to to these models and can contribute to the research uh um

can contribute to the research uh um can contribute to the research uh um avoids a sort of neural tyranny where avoids a sort of neural tyranny where avoids a sort of neural tyranny where very few p PE people have control over very few p PE people have control over very few p PE people have control over AI for the world and and use it to AI for the world and and use it to AI for the world and and use it to oppress uh those around oppress uh those around oppress uh those around them you were talking about intelligence them you were talking about intelligence them you were talking about intelligence you mentioned multipartite quantum you mentioned multipartite quantum you mentioned multipartite quantum entanglement mhm so high level question entanglement mhm so high level question entanglement mhm so high level question first is what do you think is first is what do you think is first is what do you think is intelligence when you think about intelligence when you think about intelligence when you think about quantum mechanical systems and You quantum mechanical systems and You quantum mechanical systems and You observe some kind of computation observe some kind of computation observe some kind of computation happening in happening in happening in them what do you them what do you them what do you think is intelligent about the kind of think is intelligent about the kind of think is intelligent about the kind of computation the universe is able to do a computation the universe is able to do a computation the universe is able to do a small small inkling of which is the kind small small inkling of which is the kind small small inkling of which is the kind of competition the human brain is able of competition the human brain is able of competition the human brain is able to to to do I I would say like intelligence and do I I would say like intelligence and do I I would say like intelligence and computation aren't quite the same thing computation aren't quite the same thing computation aren't quite the same thing I think that the universe is very much I think that the universe is very much I think that the universe is very much you know doing a a Quantum computation you know doing a a Quantum computation you know doing a a Quantum computation if you had access to all the degrees of if you had access to all the degrees of if you had access to all the degrees of freedom you could and a very very very freedom you could and a very very very freedom you could and a very very very large quantum computer with many many large quantum computer with many many large quantum computer with many many many cubits uh let's say a few cubits many cubits uh let's say a few cubits many cubits uh let's say a few cubits per uh plank volume right um which is per uh plank volume right um which is per uh plank volume right um which is more or less the pixels we have uh then more or less the pixels we have uh then more or less the pixels we have uh then you you'd be able to simulate the whole you you'd be able to simulate the whole you you'd be able to simulate the whole universe right uh on a on a sufficiently universe right uh on a on a sufficiently universe right uh on a on a sufficiently large quantum computer assuming you're large quantum computer assuming you're large quantum computer assuming you're looking at a finite volume of course of looking at a finite volume of course of looking at a finite volume of course of the Universe the Universe the Universe um I think that at least to me

um I think that at least to me um I think that at least to me intelligence is the you know I go back intelligence is the you know I go back intelligence is the you know I go back to cybernetics right the ability to to cybernetics right the ability to to cybernetics right the ability to perceive predict and control our world perceive predict and control our world perceive predict and control our world but really it's nowadays it seems like a but really it's nowadays it seems like a but really it's nowadays it seems like a lot of lot of lot of intelligence uh we use is more about intelligence uh we use is more about intelligence uh we use is more about compression right it's about um it's compression right it's about um it's compression right it's about um it's about operationalizing information about operationalizing information about operationalizing information Theory right in information Theory you Theory right in information Theory you Theory right in information Theory you have the notion of entropy of a have the notion of entropy of a have the notion of entropy of a distribution or a system and entropy distribution or a system and entropy distribution or a system and entropy tells you that you need this many bits tells you that you need this many bits tells you that you need this many bits uh to encode this distribution or this uh to encode this distribution or this uh to encode this distribution or this subsystem if you have the most optimal subsystem if you have the most optimal subsystem if you have the most optimal code MH and AI at least the way we you code MH and AI at least the way we you code MH and AI at least the way we you we do it today for llms and for Quantum we do it today for llms and for Quantum we do it today for llms and for Quantum uh is is very uh is is very uh is is very much Trying to minimize uh relative much Trying to minimize uh relative much Trying to minimize uh relative entropy between our models of the world entropy between our models of the world entropy between our models of the world and the world distributions from the and the world distributions from the and the world distributions from the world and so we're learning we're world and so we're learning we're world and so we're learning we're searching over the space of computations searching over the space of computations searching over the space of computations to process the world to find that to process the world to find that to process the world to find that compressed compressed compressed representation that has distilled all representation that has distilled all representation that has distilled all the variance and noise and entropy right the variance and noise and entropy right the variance and noise and entropy right um and um and um and originally I I came to Quantum machine originally I I came to Quantum machine originally I I came to Quantum machine learning from the study of black holes learning from the study of black holes learning from the study of black holes because the entropy of black holes is because the entropy of black holes is because the entropy of black holes is very interesting in a sense they're

very interesting in a sense they're very interesting in a sense they're physically the most dense objects in the physically the most dense objects in the physically the most dense objects in the universe you can't pack more information universe you can't pack more information universe you can't pack more information spatially any more densely than in black spatially any more densely than in black spatially any more densely than in black hole and so I was wondering how do black hole and so I was wondering how do black hole and so I was wondering how do black ho ho ho actually encode information what is actually encode information what is actually encode information what is their compression code and so that got their compression code and so that got their compression code and so that got me into the space of algorithms to me into the space of algorithms to me into the space of algorithms to search over space of quantum uh codes um search over space of quantum uh codes um search over space of quantum uh codes um and uh it got me actually into also how and uh it got me actually into also how and uh it got me actually into also how do you acquire Quantum information the do you acquire Quantum information the do you acquire Quantum information the from the world right so something I've from the world right so something I've from the world right so something I've worked on uh this is public now is worked on uh this is public now is worked on uh this is public now is quantum analog digital conversion so how quantum analog digital conversion so how quantum analog digital conversion so how do you capture information from The Real do you capture information from The Real do you capture information from The Real World in superposition and not destroy World in superposition and not destroy World in superposition and not destroy the superposition but digitize for a the superposition but digitize for a the superposition but digitize for a quantum mechanical quantum mechanical quantum mechanical computer uh information from The Real computer uh information from The Real computer uh information from The Real World um and so if you have an ability World um and so if you have an ability World um and so if you have an ability to capture Quantum information and to capture Quantum information and to capture Quantum information and search over learn representations of it search over learn representations of it search over learn representations of it now you can learn compressed now you can learn compressed now you can learn compressed representations that may have some representations that may have some representations that may have some useful information in their latent useful information in their latent useful information in their latent representation right um and I think that representation right um and I think that representation right um and I think that many of the problems facing our many of the problems facing our many of the problems facing our civilization are actually Beyond this civilization are actually Beyond this civilization are actually Beyond this this complexity barrier right I mean the this complexity barrier right I mean the this complexity barrier right I mean the greenhouse effect is a quantum greenhouse effect is a quantum greenhouse effect is a quantum mechanical effect right chemistry is mechanical effect right chemistry is mechanical effect right chemistry is quantum quantum quantum mechanical um you know Nuclear Physics

mechanical um you know Nuclear Physics mechanical um you know Nuclear Physics is quantum mechanical a lot of biology is quantum mechanical a lot of biology is quantum mechanical a lot of biology and and and and protein folding and so and and and and protein folding and so and and and and protein folding and so on is affected by quantum mechanics and on is affected by quantum mechanics and on is affected by quantum mechanics and so unlocking an ability to augment human so unlocking an ability to augment human so unlocking an ability to augment human intellect with quantum mechanical intellect with quantum mechanical intellect with quantum mechanical computers and quantum mechanical AI computers and quantum mechanical AI computers and quantum mechanical AI seemed to me like a fundamental seemed to me like a fundamental seemed to me like a fundamental capability for civilization that we we capability for civilization that we we capability for civilization that we we needed to develop um so I spent several needed to develop um so I spent several needed to develop um so I spent several years doing that um but over time I kind years doing that um but over time I kind years doing that um but over time I kind of grew weary of the the timelines that of grew weary of the the timelines that of grew weary of the the timelines that were starting to look like nuclear were starting to look like nuclear were starting to look like nuclear fusion so one high Lev question I can fusion so one high Lev question I can fusion so one high Lev question I can ask is Maybe by way of definition by way ask is Maybe by way of definition by way ask is Maybe by way of definition by way of explanation of explanation of explanation what is a quantum computer and what is what is a quantum computer and what is what is a quantum computer and what is uh Quantum machine uh Quantum machine uh Quantum machine learning so a quantum computer really is learning so a quantum computer really is learning so a quantum computer really is a quantum mechanical system over which a quantum mechanical system over which a quantum mechanical system over which we have sufficient control and it can we have sufficient control and it can we have sufficient control and it can maintain its quantum mechanical State maintain its quantum mechanical State maintain its quantum mechanical State and quantum mechanics is how nature and quantum mechanics is how nature and quantum mechanics is how nature behaves at the very small scales when behaves at the very small scales when behaves at the very small scales when things are very small or very cold and things are very small or very cold and things are very small or very cold and it's actually more fundamental than it's actually more fundamental than it's actually more fundamental than probability Theory so we're used to probability Theory so we're used to probability Theory so we're used to things being this or things being this or things being this or that uh but we're not used to thinking that uh but we're not used to thinking that uh but we're not used to thinking in superpositions because uh well our in superpositions because uh well our in superpositions because uh well our brains can't can't do that so we we have brains can't can't do that so we we have brains can't can't do that so we we have to translate the quantum mechanical to translate the quantum mechanical to translate the quantum mechanical world to say linear algebra to

world to say linear algebra to world to say linear algebra to grocket unfortunately that translation grocket unfortunately that translation grocket unfortunately that translation is exponentially inefficient on average is exponentially inefficient on average is exponentially inefficient on average you have to represent things with very you have to represent things with very you have to represent things with very large matrices large matrices large matrices but really you can make a quantum but really you can make a quantum but really you can make a quantum computer out of many things right and computer out of many things right and computer out of many things right and we've seen all sorts of players you know we've seen all sorts of players you know we've seen all sorts of players you know from neutral atoms trapped ions super from neutral atoms trapped ions super from neutral atoms trapped ions super conducting metal um photons at different conducting metal um photons at different conducting metal um photons at different frequencies I think you could make a frequencies I think you could make a frequencies I think you could make a quantum computer out of many things but quantum computer out of many things but quantum computer out of many things but to to me the thing that was really to to me the thing that was really to to me the thing that was really interesting was both Quantum machine interesting was both Quantum machine interesting was both Quantum machine learning was about understanding the learning was about understanding the learning was about understanding the quantum mechanical world with quantum quantum mechanical world with quantum quantum mechanical world with quantum computers so embedding the physical computers so embedding the physical computers so embedding the physical world into AI representations and world into AI representations and world into AI representations and quantum computer engineering was quantum computer engineering was quantum computer engineering was embedding AI embedding AI embedding AI algorithms into the physical world so algorithms into the physical world so algorithms into the physical world so this bidirectionality of embedding this bidirectionality of embedding this bidirectionality of embedding physical world into ai ai into the physical world into ai ai into the physical world into ai ai into the physical world the S symbiosis between physical world the S symbiosis between physical world the S symbiosis between physics and AI really that's the sort of physics and AI really that's the sort of physics and AI really that's the sort of core core core of my quest really uh even to this day of my quest really uh even to this day of my quest really uh even to this day after Quantum Computing it's still in after Quantum Computing it's still in after Quantum Computing it's still in this sort of this sort of this sort of um journey to merge really physics and um journey to merge really physics and um journey to merge really physics and AI fundamentally so Quantum machine AI fundamentally so Quantum machine AI fundamentally so Quantum machine learning is a way to do machine learning learning is a way to do machine learning learning is a way to do machine learning on a uh representation of nature that is on a uh representation of nature that is on a uh representation of nature that is you know stays true to the quantum you know stays true to the quantum you know stays true to the quantum mechanical aspect of nature yeah it's mechanical aspect of nature yeah it's mechanical aspect of nature yeah it's learning quantum mechanical

learning quantum mechanical learning quantum mechanical representations that would be Quantum representations that would be Quantum representations that would be Quantum deep learning um alternatively you can deep learning um alternatively you can deep learning um alternatively you can try to do classical machine learning on try to do classical machine learning on try to do classical machine learning on a quantum computer I wouldn't advise it a quantum computer I wouldn't advise it a quantum computer I wouldn't advise it because um you may have some speedups because um you may have some speedups because um you may have some speedups but very often the speedups come with but very often the speedups come with but very often the speedups come with huge costs using a quantum computer is huge costs using a quantum computer is huge costs using a quantum computer is very expensive why is that because you very expensive why is that because you very expensive why is that because you assume the computer is operating at zero assume the computer is operating at zero assume the computer is operating at zero temperature which no physical system in temperature which no physical system in temperature which no physical system in the universe can achieve that the universe can achieve that the universe can achieve that temperature so what you have to do is temperature so what you have to do is temperature so what you have to do is what I've been mentioning this Quantum a what I've been mentioning this Quantum a what I've been mentioning this Quantum a correction process which is really an correction process which is really an correction process which is really an algorithm M fridge right is trying to algorithm M fridge right is trying to algorithm M fridge right is trying to pump entropy out of the system trying to pump entropy out of the system trying to pump entropy out of the system trying to get it closer to zero temperature and get it closer to zero temperature and get it closer to zero temperature and when you do the calculations of how many when you do the calculations of how many when you do the calculations of how many resources it would take to say do deep resources it would take to say do deep resources it would take to say do deep learning on a quantum computer classical learning on a quantum computer classical learning on a quantum computer classical deep deep deep learning uh it's there's just such a learning uh it's there's just such a learning uh it's there's just such a huge overhead it's not worth it it's huge overhead it's not worth it it's huge overhead it's not worth it it's like thinking about shipping something like thinking about shipping something like thinking about shipping something across a city using a rocket and going across a city using a rocket and going across a city using a rocket and going to orbit and back it doesn't make sense to orbit and back it doesn't make sense to orbit and back it doesn't make sense just use uh an you know delivery truck just use uh an you know delivery truck just use uh an you know delivery truck right right what kind of stuff can you right right what kind of stuff can you right right what kind of stuff can you figure out can you predict can you figure out can you predict can you figure out can you predict can you understand with Quantum deep learning understand with Quantum deep learning understand with Quantum deep learning that you can't with deep learning so that you can't with deep learning so that you can't with deep learning so incorporating quantum mechanical systems incorporating quantum mechanical systems incorporating quantum mechanical systems into the into the learning process I into the into the learning process I into the into the learning process I think that's a great question I mean think that's a great question I mean think that's a great question I mean fundamentally it's any system that has fundamentally it's any system that has fundamentally it's any system that has sufficient uh quantum mechanical uh sufficient uh quantum mechanical uh sufficient uh quantum mechanical uh correlations that are very hard to correlations that are very hard to correlations that are very hard to capture for classical representations

capture for classical representations capture for classical representations then there should be an advantage for a then there should be an advantage for a then there should be an advantage for a quantum mechanical represent over a quantum mechanical represent over a quantum mechanical represent over a purely classical one the question is purely classical one the question is purely classical one the question is which systems have sufficient which systems have sufficient which systems have sufficient correlations that are very Quantum U but correlations that are very Quantum U but correlations that are very Quantum U but is also uh which systems are still is also uh which systems are still is also uh which systems are still relevant to Industry that's a big relevant to Industry that's a big relevant to Industry that's a big question you know people are leaning question you know people are leaning question you know people are leaning towards chemistry uh Nuclear towards chemistry uh Nuclear towards chemistry uh Nuclear Physics uh um I've worked on actually Physics uh um I've worked on actually Physics uh um I've worked on actually processing inputs from Quantum sensors processing inputs from Quantum sensors processing inputs from Quantum sensors right if you have a network of quantum right if you have a network of quantum right if you have a network of quantum sensors they've captured a quantum sensors they've captured a quantum sensors they've captured a quantum mechanical image of the world and how to mechanical image of the world and how to mechanical image of the world and how to post-process that that becomes a sort of post-process that that becomes a sort of post-process that that becomes a sort of quantum form of machine perception and quantum form of machine perception and quantum form of machine perception and so for example uh fery laab has a so for example uh fery laab has a so for example uh fery laab has a project exploring detecting dark matter project exploring detecting dark matter project exploring detecting dark matter with these Quantum sensors and to me uh with these Quantum sensors and to me uh with these Quantum sensors and to me uh that's in alignment with my quest to that's in alignment with my quest to that's in alignment with my quest to understand the universe ever since I was understand the universe ever since I was understand the universe ever since I was a child and so someday I hope that we a child and so someday I hope that we a child and so someday I hope that we can have very large networks of quantum can have very large networks of quantum can have very large networks of quantum sensors that help us um peer into the sensors that help us um peer into the sensors that help us um peer into the earliest part of the the universe right earliest part of the the universe right earliest part of the the universe right for example the ligo is a Quantum sensor for example the ligo is a Quantum sensor for example the ligo is a Quantum sensor right it's just a very large one um so right it's just a very large one um so right it's just a very large one um so uh yeah I would say Quantum machine uh yeah I would say Quantum machine uh yeah I would say Quantum machine perception uh simulations right grocking perception uh simulations right grocking perception uh simulations right grocking Quantum simulations so similar to Alpha Quantum simulations so similar to Alpha Quantum simulations so similar to Alpha fold right Alpha fold understood the fold right Alpha fold understood the fold right Alpha fold understood the probability distribution over probability distribution over probability distribution over configurations of proteins you can configurations of proteins you can configurations of proteins you can understand Quantum distributions over understand Quantum distributions over understand Quantum distributions over configurations of electrons uh more

configurations of electrons uh more configurations of electrons uh more efficiently with Quantum machine efficiently with Quantum machine efficiently with Quantum machine learning learning learning you co-authored a paper titled a you co-authored a paper titled a you co-authored a paper titled a universal training algorithm for Quantum universal training algorithm for Quantum universal training algorithm for Quantum deep learning uh that involves back prop deep learning uh that involves back prop deep learning uh that involves back prop with a Q very well done sir very well with a Q very well done sir very well with a Q very well done sir very well done how does it work is it is there done how does it work is it is there done how does it work is it is there some interesting aspects you can just some interesting aspects you can just some interesting aspects you can just mentioned uh on how kind mentioned uh on how kind mentioned uh on how kind of you know back propop and some of of you know back propop and some of of you know back propop and some of these things we know for classical these things we know for classical these things we know for classical machine learning transfer over to the machine learning transfer over to the machine learning transfer over to the the quantum machine learning yeah that the quantum machine learning yeah that the quantum machine learning yeah that was that was a that was a funky paper was that was a that was a funky paper was that was a that was a funky paper that was one of my first papers and in that was one of my first papers and in that was one of my first papers and in Quantum deep learning everybody was Quantum deep learning everybody was Quantum deep learning everybody was saying oh I think deep learning is going saying oh I think deep learning is going saying oh I think deep learning is going to be sped up by quantum computers and I to be sped up by quantum computers and I to be sped up by quantum computers and I was like well the best way to predict was like well the best way to predict was like well the best way to predict the future is to invent it so here's a the future is to invent it so here's a the future is to invent it so here's a 100 page paper have fun um 100 page paper have fun um 100 page paper have fun um essentially you you know Quantum essentially you you know Quantum essentially you you know Quantum Computing is usually you embed uh Computing is usually you embed uh Computing is usually you embed uh reversible operations into a Quantum reversible operations into a Quantum reversible operations into a Quantum computation and so the trick there was computation and so the trick there was computation and so the trick there was to do a feedforward operation and do to do a feedforward operation and do to do a feedforward operation and do what we call a phase kick but really what we call a phase kick but really what we call a phase kick but really it's just a force kick you just kick the it's just a force kick you just kick the it's just a force kick you just kick the system uh with a certain force that is system uh with a certain force that is system uh with a certain force that is you know proportional to your loss you know proportional to your loss you know proportional to your loss function that you you wish to optimize function that you you wish to optimize function that you you wish to optimize and then by performing uncomp and then by performing uncomp and then by performing uncomp computation you start with a computation you start with a computation you start with a superpositions over a superposition over superpositions over a superposition over superpositions over a superposition over parameters right which is pretty funky parameters right which is pretty funky parameters right which is pretty funky now you're not just you don't have just now you're not just you don't have just now you're not just you don't have just a point for parameters you have a superp a point for parameters you have a superp a point for parameters you have a superp position over many potential parameters

position over many potential parameters position over many potential parameters right mhm and our goal is is using phas right mhm and our goal is is using phas right mhm and our goal is is using phas kicks somehow right to adjust parameters kicks somehow right to adjust parameters kicks somehow right to adjust parameters cuz phas kicks cuz phas kicks cuz phas kicks emulate uh having uh the parameter space emulate uh having uh the parameter space emulate uh having uh the parameter space be like a a particle in N dimensions and be like a a particle in N dimensions and be like a a particle in N dimensions and you're trying to get the shringer you're trying to get the shringer you're trying to get the shringer equation shringer Dynamics in the Lost equation shringer Dynamics in the Lost equation shringer Dynamics in the Lost landscape of the neural network right landscape of the neural network right landscape of the neural network right and so you do an algorithm to induce the and so you do an algorithm to induce the and so you do an algorithm to induce the space kick which you know involves a space kick which you know involves a space kick which you know involves a feed forward a kick and then when you feed forward a kick and then when you feed forward a kick and then when you uncomp compute the feed forward then all uncomp compute the feed forward then all uncomp compute the feed forward then all the errors and these phase kicks and the errors and these phase kicks and the errors and these phase kicks and these forces back propagate and hit each these forces back propagate and hit each these forces back propagate and hit each one of the parameters throughout the one of the parameters throughout the one of the parameters throughout the layers and if you alternate this with an layers and if you alternate this with an layers and if you alternate this with an emulation of kinetic energy then it's emulation of kinetic energy then it's emulation of kinetic energy then it's kind of like a particle moving in N kind of like a particle moving in N kind of like a particle moving in N dimensions a Quantum particle um and the dimensions a Quantum particle um and the dimensions a Quantum particle um and the advantage in principle would be that it advantage in principle would be that it advantage in principle would be that it can tunnel through the landscape um and can tunnel through the landscape um and can tunnel through the landscape um and find new Optima that would have been find new Optima that would have been find new Optima that would have been difficult for stochastic difficult for stochastic difficult for stochastic optimizers um but again this kind of a optimizers um but again this kind of a optimizers um but again this kind of a theoretical thing and in practice uh theoretical thing and in practice uh theoretical thing and in practice uh with at least the current architectures with at least the current architectures with at least the current architectures for quantum computers that we have for quantum computers that we have for quantum computers that we have planned uh you know such algorithms planned uh you know such algorithms planned uh you know such algorithms would be extremely expensive to run so would be extremely expensive to run so would be extremely expensive to run so maybe this is a good place to ask the maybe this is a good place to ask the maybe this is a good place to ask the difference between the different fields difference between the different fields difference between the different fields that you've had a tow in so mathematics that you've had a tow in so mathematics that you've had a tow in so mathematics physics physics physics engineering and also you know

engineering and also you know engineering and also you know entrepreneurship like different layers entrepreneurship like different layers entrepreneurship like different layers of the stack I think a lot of the stuff of the stack I think a lot of the stuff of the stack I think a lot of the stuff you're talking about here is a little you're talking about here is a little you're talking about here is a little bit on the math side maybe physics bit on the math side maybe physics bit on the math side maybe physics almost working in theory what's the almost working in theory what's the almost working in theory what's the difference between math physics difference between math physics difference between math physics engineering and uh you know make making engineering and uh you know make making engineering and uh you know make making a product for Quantum Computing for a product for Quantum Computing for a product for Quantum Computing for Quantum machine learning yeah I mean you Quantum machine learning yeah I mean you Quantum machine learning yeah I mean you know some of the original team uh for know some of the original team uh for know some of the original team uh for the tensorflow quantum project which we the tensorflow quantum project which we the tensorflow quantum project which we started you know in school at University started you know in school at University started you know in school at University of water of water of water uh there was myself uh you know uh there was myself uh you know uh there was myself uh you know initially I was a a physicist apply initially I was a a physicist apply initially I was a a physicist apply matician mathematician we had a computer matician mathematician we had a computer matician mathematician we had a computer scientist uh we had mechanical engineer scientist uh we had mechanical engineer scientist uh we had mechanical engineer and then we had a physicist that was and then we had a physicist that was and then we had a physicist that was experimental primarily and experimental primarily and experimental primarily and so putting together teams that are very so putting together teams that are very so putting together teams that are very cross-disciplinary and figuring out how cross-disciplinary and figuring out how cross-disciplinary and figuring out how to communicate and and share knowledge to communicate and and share knowledge to communicate and and share knowledge is really the key to doing this sort of is really the key to doing this sort of is really the key to doing this sort of indis interdisciplinary uh engineering indis interdisciplinary uh engineering indis interdisciplinary uh engineering work um I mean there is there is a big work um I mean there is there is a big work um I mean there is there is a big uh difference you know in mathematics uh difference you know in mathematics uh difference you know in mathematics you can explore mathematics for you can explore mathematics for you can explore mathematics for mathematics sake in physics you're mathematics sake in physics you're mathematics sake in physics you're applying mathematics to understand uh applying mathematics to understand uh applying mathematics to understand uh the world around us uh and in engineer the world around us uh and in engineer the world around us uh and in engineer you're trying to you're trying to hack you're trying to you're trying to hack you're trying to you're trying to hack the world right you're trying to find the world right you're trying to find the world right you're trying to find how to apply the physics that I know my how to apply the physics that I know my how to apply the physics that I know my knowledge of the world to to to do knowledge of the world to to to do knowledge of the world to to to do things well in Quantum Computing in things well in Quantum Computing in things well in Quantum Computing in particular I think there's a just a lot particular I think there's a just a lot particular I think there's a just a lot of limits to engineering it just seems of limits to engineering it just seems of limits to engineering it just seems to be extremely hard yeah so there's a to be extremely hard yeah so there's a to be extremely hard yeah so there's a lot of value to be uh exploring

lot of value to be uh exploring lot of value to be uh exploring Quantum Computing Quantum machine Quantum Computing Quantum machine Quantum Computing Quantum machine learning in uh theory in with with with learning in uh theory in with with with learning in uh theory in with with with with with with math so I guess one question is why is math so I guess one question is why is math so I guess one question is why is it so hard to build a quantum computer it so hard to build a quantum computer it so hard to build a quantum computer what are uh what's your view of what are uh what's your view of what are uh what's your view of timelines in bringing these ideas to timelines in bringing these ideas to timelines in bringing these ideas to life right I I think that um you know an life right I I think that um you know an life right I I think that um you know an overall theme of my company is uh that overall theme of my company is uh that overall theme of my company is uh that we have folks that are uh you know we have folks that are uh you know we have folks that are uh you know there's a sort of Exodus from Quantum there's a sort of Exodus from Quantum there's a sort of Exodus from Quantum Computing and we're going to broader Computing and we're going to broader Computing and we're going to broader physics based AI that is not Quantum so physics based AI that is not Quantum so physics based AI that is not Quantum so that gives you a hint and um so we that gives you a hint and um so we that gives you a hint and um so we should say the name of your company is should say the name of your company is should say the name of your company is extr Tropic xtropicalovex xtropicalovex and the way to do that is by encoding and the way to do that is by encoding and the way to do that is by encoding information you encode a code within a information you encode a code within a information you encode a code within a code within a code within a code and so code within a code within a code and so code within a code within a code and so there's a lot of redundancy needed to do there's a lot of redundancy needed to do there's a lot of redundancy needed to do this error correction But ultimately this error correction But ultimately this error correction But ultimately it's a sort of um algorithmic it's a sort of um algorithmic it's a sort of um algorithmic refrigerator really it's just pumping refrigerator really it's just pumping refrigerator really it's just pumping out entropy out of the S the subsystem out entropy out of the S the subsystem out entropy out of the S the subsystem that is virtual and and delocalized that that is virtual and and delocalized that that is virtual and and delocalized that represents your quote unquote logical represents your quote unquote logical represents your quote unquote logical cubit aka the the payload Quantum bits

cubit aka the the payload Quantum bits cubit aka the the payload Quantum bits in which you actually want to uh do run in which you actually want to uh do run in which you actually want to uh do run your quantum mechanical program it's your quantum mechanical program it's your quantum mechanical program it's very difficult because in order to scale very difficult because in order to scale very difficult because in order to scale up your quantum computer you need each up your quantum computer you need each up your quantum computer you need each component to be of sufficient quality component to be of sufficient quality component to be of sufficient quality for it to be worth it because if you try for it to be worth it because if you try for it to be worth it because if you try to do this error correction this Quantum to do this error correction this Quantum to do this error correction this Quantum error correction process and each error correction process and each error correction process and each Quantum bit and your control over them Quantum bit and your control over them Quantum bit and your control over them is if it's insufficient um uh it's not is if it's insufficient um uh it's not is if it's insufficient um uh it's not worth scaling up your actually adding worth scaling up your actually adding worth scaling up your actually adding more errors than you remove and so more errors than you remove and so more errors than you remove and so there's this notion of a threshold where there's this notion of a threshold where there's this notion of a threshold where if your Quantum bits are of sufficient if your Quantum bits are of sufficient if your Quantum bits are of sufficient quality in terms of your control over quality in terms of your control over quality in terms of your control over them it's actually worth scaling up and them it's actually worth scaling up and them it's actually worth scaling up and actually in recent years people have actually in recent years people have actually in recent years people have been crossing the threshold and it's been crossing the threshold and it's been crossing the threshold and it's starting to be worth it and so it's just starting to be worth it and so it's just starting to be worth it and so it's just a very long slog of engineering But a very long slog of engineering But a very long slog of engineering But ultimately it's really crazy to me how ultimately it's really crazy to me how ultimately it's really crazy to me how much Exquisite level of control we have much Exquisite level of control we have much Exquisite level of control we have over these systems it's actually quite over these systems it's actually quite over these systems it's actually quite crazy uh and and we're people are crazy uh and and we're people are crazy uh and and we're people are crossing you know they're achieving crossing you know they're achieving crossing you know they're achieving Milestones it's just you know in general Milestones it's just you know in general Milestones it's just you know in general the media always gets ahead right of the media always gets ahead right of the media always gets ahead right of where the technology is there's a bit where the technology is there's a bit where the technology is there's a bit too much hype it's good for fundraising too much hype it's good for fundraising too much hype it's good for fundraising but sometimes you know it causes Winters but sometimes you know it causes Winters but sometimes you know it causes Winters right it's the hype cycle I'm bullish on right it's the hype cycle I'm bullish on right it's the hype cycle I'm bullish on Quantum Computing on a 10 15 year time Quantum Computing on a 10 15 year time Quantum Computing on a 10 15 year time scale uh personally but I think there's scale uh personally but I think there's scale uh personally but I think there's other quests that can be done uh in the other quests that can be done uh in the other quests that can be done uh in the meantime I think it's in good hands meantime I think it's in good hands meantime I think it's in good hands right now right now right now well let me just explore different

well let me just explore different well let me just explore different beautiful ideas large or small in beautiful ideas large or small in beautiful ideas large or small in Quantum Computing that might jump out at Quantum Computing that might jump out at Quantum Computing that might jump out at you from memory so when you co-authored you from memory so when you co-authored you from memory so when you co-authored a paper titled ASM totically Limitless a paper titled ASM totically Limitless a paper titled ASM totically Limitless Quantum energy teleportation via qit Quantum energy teleportation via qit Quantum energy teleportation via qit probes so just uh out of curiosity uh probes so just uh out of curiosity uh probes so just uh out of curiosity uh can you explain what a qit is verus a can you explain what a qit is verus a can you explain what a qit is verus a cubit yeah it's a it's a dstate uh Cubit cubit yeah it's a it's a dstate uh Cubit cubit yeah it's a it's a dstate uh Cubit it's a multi-dimensional it's a multi-dimensional it's a multi-dimensional multi-dimensional right so it's like uh multi-dimensional right so it's like uh multi-dimensional right so it's like uh well you know can you have a notion of well you know can you have a notion of well you know can you have a notion of like an an integer floating point that like an an integer floating point that like an an integer floating point that is quantum mechanical that's something is quantum mechanical that's something is quantum mechanical that's something I've had to think about um I think that I've had to think about um I think that I've had to think about um I think that research was a precursor to later work research was a precursor to later work research was a precursor to later work on Quantum analog digital conversion ah on Quantum analog digital conversion ah on Quantum analog digital conversion ah there there was interesting because there there was interesting because there there was interesting because during my masters I was trying to during my masters I was trying to during my masters I was trying to understand the energy and entanglement understand the energy and entanglement understand the energy and entanglement of the vacuum right of emptiness of the vacuum right of emptiness of the vacuum right of emptiness emptiness has energy which is very weird emptiness has energy which is very weird emptiness has energy which is very weird to say and our equations of to say and our equations of to say and our equations of cosmology don't match our calculations cosmology don't match our calculations cosmology don't match our calculations for the amount of quantum energy there for the amount of quantum energy there for the amount of quantum energy there are there is in the are there is in the are there is in the fluctuations and so I was trying to hack fluctuations and so I was trying to hack fluctuations and so I was trying to hack the energy of the vacuum right and the the energy of the vacuum right and the the energy of the vacuum right and the reality is that you can't just directly reality is that you can't just directly reality is that you can't just directly hack it it doesn't it's not technically hack it it doesn't it's not technically hack it it doesn't it's not technically free energy your lack of knowledge of free energy your lack of knowledge of free energy your lack of knowledge of the fluctuations means you can't extract the fluctuations means you can't extract the fluctuations means you can't extract the energy but just like you know in the the energy but just like you know in the the energy but just like you know in the stock market if you have a stock that's stock market if you have a stock that's stock market if you have a stock that's correlated over time the vacuum is

correlated over time the vacuum is correlated over time the vacuum is actually correlated so if you measured actually correlated so if you measured actually correlated so if you measured the vacuum at one point you acquired the vacuum at one point you acquired the vacuum at one point you acquired information if you communicated that information if you communicated that information if you communicated that information to another point you can information to another point you can information to another point you can infer uh what configuration the vacuum infer uh what configuration the vacuum infer uh what configuration the vacuum is in to some precision and is in to some precision and is in to some precision and statistically extract on average some statistically extract on average some statistically extract on average some energy there so you've quote unquote energy there so you've quote unquote energy there so you've quote unquote teleported teleported teleported energy to me that was interesting energy to me that was interesting energy to me that was interesting because you could create ET of negative because you could create ET of negative because you could create ET of negative energy density which is energy density energy density which is energy density energy density which is energy density that is below the that is below the that is below the vacuum which is very weird because H we vacuum which is very weird because H we vacuum which is very weird because H we don't understand how the vacuum don't understand how the vacuum don't understand how the vacuum gravitates um and there are theories gravitates um and there are theories gravitates um and there are theories where the vacuum or the canvas of where the vacuum or the canvas of where the vacuum or the canvas of SpaceTime itself is really a a canvas SpaceTime itself is really a a canvas SpaceTime itself is really a a canvas made out of quantum entanglement and I made out of quantum entanglement and I made out of quantum entanglement and I was studying how decreasing energy of was studying how decreasing energy of was studying how decreasing energy of the vacuum locally the vacuum locally the vacuum locally increases quantum entanglement which is increases quantum entanglement which is increases quantum entanglement which is very very very funky um and so the thing there is that funky um and so the thing there is that funky um and so the thing there is that you know uh if you're you know uh if you're you know uh if you're into you know weird theories about you into you know weird theories about you into you know weird theories about you know uaps and whatnot you know uh you know uaps and whatnot you know uh you know uaps and whatnot you know uh you could try to imagine that they're could try to imagine that they're could try to imagine that they're they're around and and how would they they're around and and how would they they're around and and how would they Propel themselves right how would they Propel themselves right how would they Propel themselves right how would they um go faster than the speed of light you um go faster than the speed of light you um go faster than the speed of light you would need a sort of negative energy would need a sort of negative energy would need a sort of negative energy density and to me I gave it the old density and to me I gave it the old density and to me I gave it the old College try trying to hack the energy of

College try trying to hack the energy of College try trying to hack the energy of the vacuum and hit the limits allowable the vacuum and hit the limits allowable the vacuum and hit the limits allowable by the laws of physics but um there's by the laws of physics but um there's by the laws of physics but um there's all sorts of caveat there where uh you all sorts of caveat there where uh you all sorts of caveat there where uh you can't extract more than you've you've can't extract more than you've you've can't extract more than you've you've put in obviously but you're saying it's put in obviously but you're saying it's put in obviously but you're saying it's possible to teleport the energy because possible to teleport the energy because possible to teleport the energy because you can extract information one can extract information one place and then make based on that some place and then make based on that some place and then make based on that some kind of prediction about another place kind of prediction about another place kind of prediction about another place I'm not sure what I make of that yeah I I'm not sure what I make of that yeah I I'm not sure what I make of that yeah I mean it's it's uh allowable by the laws mean it's it's uh allowable by the laws mean it's it's uh allowable by the laws of physics the the reality though is of physics the the reality though is of physics the the reality though is that the correlations Decay with that the correlations Decay with that the correlations Decay with distance and so you're going to have to distance and so you're going to have to distance and so you're going to have to pay the price not too far away from pay the price not too far away from pay the price not too far away from where you extract it sure right the where you extract it sure right the where you extract it sure right the Precision decreases in terms of your Precision decreases in terms of your Precision decreases in terms of your ability but still uh but since you ability but still uh but since you ability but still uh but since you mentioned uh uaps uh we talked about mentioned uh uaps uh we talked about mentioned uh uaps uh we talked about intelligence and I forgot to ask intelligence and I forgot to ask intelligence and I forgot to ask what's your view on the other possible what's your view on the other possible what's your view on the other possible intelligences that are out there at the intelligences that are out there at the intelligences that are out there at the uh the meso scale do you think there's uh the meso scale do you think there's uh the meso scale do you think there's other intelligent alien civilizations is other intelligent alien civilizations is other intelligent alien civilizations is that useful to think about how often do that useful to think about how often do that useful to think about how often do you think about it I think it's I think you think about it I think it's I think you think about it I think it's I think it's useful to think about it's useful it's useful to think about it's useful it's useful to think about it's useful to think about because we got to ensure to think about because we got to ensure to think about because we got to ensure we're we're we're antifragile and we're you know trying to antifragile and we're you know trying to antifragile and we're you know trying to increase our capabilities as fast as increase our capabilities as fast as increase our capabilities as fast as possible because we could get disrupted possible because we could get disrupted possible because we could get disrupted like there's no laws of physics against like there's no laws of physics against like there's no laws of physics against their uh being life elsewhere that could

their uh being life elsewhere that could their uh being life elsewhere that could evolve and become an advanced evolve and become an advanced evolve and become an advanced civilization and and eventually come to civilization and and eventually come to civilization and and eventually come to us uh do I think they're here now I'm us uh do I think they're here now I'm us uh do I think they're here now I'm not sure uh I mean I've I've I've read not sure uh I mean I've I've I've read not sure uh I mean I've I've I've read what most people have read on the the what most people have read on the the what most people have read on the the topic um I think it's interesting to topic um I think it's interesting to topic um I think it's interesting to consider and to me it's a useful thought consider and to me it's a useful thought consider and to me it's a useful thought experiment to instill a sense of urgency experiment to instill a sense of urgency experiment to instill a sense of urgency in developing Technologies and in developing Technologies and in developing Technologies and increasing our capabilities to make sure increasing our capabilities to make sure increasing our capabilities to make sure we don't get disrupted right whether we don't get disrupted right whether we don't get disrupted right whether it's a form of of AI that disrupts us or it's a form of of AI that disrupts us or it's a form of of AI that disrupts us or a foreign intelligence from a different a foreign intelligence from a different a foreign intelligence from a different planet like either way like increasing planet like either way like increasing planet like either way like increasing our capabilities and becoming formid our capabilities and becoming formid our capabilities and becoming formid formidable as formidable as formidable as humans um I think that's that's really humans um I think that's that's really humans um I think that's that's really important so that we're robust against important so that we're robust against important so that we're robust against whatever the universe throws at us but whatever the universe throws at us but whatever the universe throws at us but to me it's also interest an interesting to me it's also interest an interesting to me it's also interest an interesting Challenge and thought experiment on how Challenge and thought experiment on how Challenge and thought experiment on how to perceive intelligence this has to do to perceive intelligence this has to do to perceive intelligence this has to do with quantum mechanical systems it has with quantum mechanical systems it has with quantum mechanical systems it has to do with with any kind of system to do with with any kind of system to do with with any kind of system that's not like that's not like that's not like humans so to me the thought experiment humans so to me the thought experiment humans so to me the thought experiment is say the aliens are here or they are is say the aliens are here or they are is say the aliens are here or they are directly observable we're just too directly observable we're just too directly observable we're just too blind too self- blind too self- blind too self- centered um don't have the right centered um don't have the right centered um don't have the right sensors or don't have the right process sensors or don't have the right process sensors or don't have the right process ing of the sensor data to see the ing of the sensor data to see the ing of the sensor data to see the obvious intelligence that's all around obvious intelligence that's all around obvious intelligence that's all around us well that's why we work on Quantum us well that's why we work on Quantum us well that's why we work on Quantum sensors right they can sense gravity

sensors right they can sense gravity sensors right they can sense gravity yeah gra but there could be so that's a yeah gra but there could be so that's a yeah gra but there could be so that's a good one but there could be other stuff good one but there could be other stuff good one but there could be other stuff that's not even in the uh currently that's not even in the uh currently that's not even in the uh currently known forces of physics right there known forces of physics right there known forces of physics right there could be some other could be some other could be some other stuff and the most entertaining thought stuff and the most entertaining thought stuff and the most entertaining thought experiment to me is that it's other experiment to me is that it's other experiment to me is that it's other stuff that's obvious it's not like we stuff that's obvious it's not like we stuff that's obvious it's not like we don't we lack the sensors it's all don't we lack the sensors it's all don't we lack the sensors it's all around us you know you know the the around us you know you know the the around us you know you know the the Consciousness being one possible one but Consciousness being one possible one but Consciousness being one possible one but there could be stuff that's just like there could be stuff that's just like there could be stuff that's just like obviously there that once you know it obviously there that once you know it obviously there that once you know it it's like oh right right that's that's it's like oh right right that's that's it's like oh right right that's that's that the thing we thought is somehow that the thing we thought is somehow that the thing we thought is somehow emergent from the laws of physics we emergent from the laws of physics we emergent from the laws of physics we understand them is actually a understand them is actually a understand them is actually a fundamental fundamental fundamental part of the universe and can be part of the universe and can be part of the universe and can be incorporated in physics most incorporated in physics most incorporated in physics most understood statistically speaking right understood statistically speaking right understood statistically speaking right if we observed some sort of alien life if we observed some sort of alien life if we observed some sort of alien life it would most likely be some sort of it would most likely be some sort of it would most likely be some sort of virally virally virally self-replicating Von noyman like Pro self-replicating Von noyman like Pro self-replicating Von noyman like Pro System right and and it's System right and and it's System right and and it's possible that there you know there are possible that there you know there are possible that there you know there are such systems that I don't know what such systems that I don't know what such systems that I don't know what they're doing at the bottom of the ocean they're doing at the bottom of the ocean they're doing at the bottom of the ocean allegedly but maybe they're you know allegedly but maybe they're you know allegedly but maybe they're you know collecting minerals uh from the bottom collecting minerals uh from the bottom collecting minerals uh from the bottom of the ocean yeah um but that wouldn't of the ocean yeah um but that wouldn't of the ocean yeah um but that wouldn't VI violate any of my priors but am I VI violate any of my priors but am I VI violate any of my priors but am I certain that these systems are here and certain that these systems are here and certain that these systems are here and it it'd be difficult for me to say so it it'd be difficult for me to say so it it'd be difficult for me to say so right I only have secondhand information right I only have secondhand information right I only have secondhand information about there being data about the bottom about there being data about the bottom about there being data about the bottom of the ocean yeah but you know could it

of the ocean yeah but you know could it of the ocean yeah but you know could it be things like memes could it be be things like memes could it be be things like memes could it be thoughts and thoughts and thoughts and ideas could they be operating in that ideas could they be operating in that ideas could they be operating in that Medium could aliens be the very thoughts Medium could aliens be the very thoughts Medium could aliens be the very thoughts that come into my that come into my that come into my head like what do you have you H how do head like what do you have you H how do head like what do you have you H how do you know that how do you know that the you know that how do you know that the you know that how do you know that the what's the origin of ideas in your mind what's the origin of ideas in your mind what's the origin of ideas in your mind when idea comes to your head show me when idea comes to your head show me when idea comes to your head show me where it where it where it originates I mean originates I mean originates I mean frankly uh when I had the idea for the frankly uh when I had the idea for the frankly uh when I had the idea for the type of computer I'm building now I type of computer I'm building now I type of computer I'm building now I think it was eight years ago now it think it was eight years ago now it think it was eight years ago now it really felt like it was being beamed really felt like it was being beamed really felt like it was being beamed from from from space just I was in bed just shaking space just I was in bed just shaking space just I was in bed just shaking just thinking it through and I don't just thinking it through and I don't just thinking it through and I don't know uh but do I believe that know uh but do I believe that know uh but do I believe that legitimately I don't think so I but you legitimately I don't think so I but you legitimately I don't think so I but you know I I think that um alien life could know I I think that um alien life could know I I think that um alien life could take many forms and I think the notion take many forms and I think the notion take many forms and I think the notion of intelligence and the notion of Life of intelligence and the notion of Life of intelligence and the notion of Life needs to be expanded uh much more needs to be expanded uh much more needs to be expanded uh much more broadly uh to be less broadly uh to be less broadly uh to be less anthropocentric or anthropocentric or anthropocentric or biocentric just to linger a little biocentric just to linger a little biocentric just to linger a little longer on on quantum mechanics what's uh longer on on quantum mechanics what's uh longer on on quantum mechanics what's uh through all your explorations of quantum through all your explorations of quantum through all your explorations of quantum Computing what's the coolest most Computing what's the coolest most Computing what's the coolest most beautiful idea that you've come across beautiful idea that you've come across beautiful idea that you've come across that has been solved or has not yet been that has been solved or has not yet been that has been solved or has not yet been solved I think the journey to understand solved I think the journey to understand solved I think the journey to understand something called ads CFT so the journey something called ads CFT so the journey something called ads CFT so the journey to understand quantum gravity through to understand quantum gravity through to understand quantum gravity through this picture where a hologram of lesser

this picture where a hologram of lesser this picture where a hologram of lesser Dimension is actually dual or exactly Dimension is actually dual or exactly Dimension is actually dual or exactly corresponding to a bulk uh theory of corresponding to a bulk uh theory of corresponding to a bulk uh theory of quantum gravity of an extra Dimension quantum gravity of an extra Dimension quantum gravity of an extra Dimension and the fact that this sort of Duality and the fact that this sort of Duality and the fact that this sort of Duality comes from trying to comes from trying to comes from trying to learn deep learning like representations learn deep learning like representations learn deep learning like representations of the of the of the boundary and so at least part of my boundary and so at least part of my boundary and so at least part of my journey someday uh on my bucket list is journey someday uh on my bucket list is journey someday uh on my bucket list is to apply Quantum machine learning to uh to apply Quantum machine learning to uh to apply Quantum machine learning to uh these sorts of systems these cfts or uh these sorts of systems these cfts or uh these sorts of systems these cfts or uh they're called syk models um and learn they're called syk models um and learn they're called syk models um and learn an emergent geometry from from the an emergent geometry from from the an emergent geometry from from the boundary Theory and so we can have a boundary Theory and so we can have a boundary Theory and so we can have a form of machine learning form of machine learning form of machine learning helps us to help helps us to help helps us to help us understand quantum gravity right us understand quantum gravity right us understand quantum gravity right which is you know still a holy grill which is you know still a holy grill which is you know still a holy grill that I would like to hit before I leave that I would like to hit before I leave that I would like to hit before I leave this this this earth what do you think is going on with earth what do you think is going on with earth what do you think is going on with black holes as black holes as black holes as information information information storing and processing units what do you storing and processing units what do you storing and processing units what do you think is going on with black holes black think is going on with black holes black think is going on with black holes black holes are really fascinating objects holes are really fascinating objects holes are really fascinating objects they're at the inter interface between they're at the inter interface between they're at the inter interface between quantum mechanics and gravity and so quantum mechanics and gravity and so quantum mechanics and gravity and so they help us test all sorts of ideas um they help us test all sorts of ideas um they help us test all sorts of ideas um I think that you know for many decades I think that you know for many decades I think that you know for many decades now there's been sort of this black hole now there's been sort of this black hole now there's been sort of this black hole information Paradox that things that information Paradox that things that information Paradox that things that fall into the black hole seem to we've fall into the black hole seem to we've fall into the black hole seem to we've seem to have lost their

seem to have lost their seem to have lost their information now I think there's this uh information now I think there's this uh information now I think there's this uh firewall Paradox that has been allegedly firewall Paradox that has been allegedly firewall Paradox that has been allegedly resolved in recent years by um you know resolved in recent years by um you know resolved in recent years by um you know a former peer of mine uh who's now a former peer of mine uh who's now a former peer of mine uh who's now professor at Berkeley um and uh there it professor at Berkeley um and uh there it professor at Berkeley um and uh there it seems like there is as information falls seems like there is as information falls seems like there is as information falls into a black hole it's sort of there's into a black hole it's sort of there's into a black hole it's sort of there's sort of a sedimentation right as you as sort of a sedimentation right as you as sort of a sedimentation right as you as you get closer and closer to the Horizon you get closer and closer to the Horizon you get closer and closer to the Horizon from the point of view of the Observer from the point of view of the Observer from the point of view of the Observer on the outside the object slows down on the outside the object slows down on the outside the object slows down infinitely as it gets closer and closer infinitely as it gets closer and closer infinitely as it gets closer and closer and so everything that is falling to a and so everything that is falling to a and so everything that is falling to a black hole from our perspective gift s black hole from our perspective gift s black hole from our perspective gift s sort of sedimented and tacked on to the sort of sedimented and tacked on to the sort of sedimented and tacked on to the near Horizon and at some point it gets near Horizon and at some point it gets near Horizon and at some point it gets so close to the Horizon it's so close to the Horizon it's so close to the Horizon it's in the proximity or the scale which in in the proximity or the scale which in in the proximity or the scale which in which Quantum effects and Quantum which Quantum effects and Quantum which Quantum effects and Quantum fluctuations matter and there some that fluctuations matter and there some that fluctuations matter and there some that and falling matter could interfere with and falling matter could interfere with and falling matter could interfere with sort of the traditional pictures that it sort of the traditional pictures that it sort of the traditional pictures that it could interfere with the creation and could interfere with the creation and could interfere with the creation and annihilation of particles and annihilation of particles and annihilation of particles and antiparticles in the vacuum and through antiparticles in the vacuum and through antiparticles in the vacuum and through this interference this interference this interference uh one of the particles gets entangled uh one of the particles gets entangled uh one of the particles gets entangled with the infalling information and one with the infalling information and one with the infalling information and one of them is now free and escapes and of them is now free and escapes and of them is now free and escapes and that's how there's sort of mutual that's how there's sort of mutual that's how there's sort of mutual information between the outgoing information between the outgoing information between the outgoing radiation and the infalling matter uh radiation and the infalling matter uh radiation and the infalling matter uh but getting that calculation right I

but getting that calculation right I but getting that calculation right I think we're only just starting to uh put think we're only just starting to uh put think we're only just starting to uh put the pieces together um there's a few the pieces together um there's a few the pieces together um there's a few pothead like questions I want to ask you pothead like questions I want to ask you pothead like questions I want to ask you sure so one does it terrify you that sure so one does it terrify you that sure so one does it terrify you that there's a giant black hole the center of there's a giant black hole the center of there's a giant black hole the center of our galaxy I don't know I I I just want our galaxy I don't know I I I just want our galaxy I don't know I I I just want to you know set up shop near it to to to you know set up shop near it to to to you know set up shop near it to to fast forward you know meet the meet a fast forward you know meet the meet a fast forward you know meet the meet a future civilization right like if we future civilization right like if we future civilization right like if we have a limited lifetime if you could go have a limited lifetime if you could go have a limited lifetime if you could go orbit a black hole and emerge uh so if orbit a black hole and emerge uh so if orbit a black hole and emerge uh so if you were like if there was a special you were like if there was a special you were like if there was a special mission that could take you to Black mission that could take you to Black mission that could take you to Black Hole would you volunteer to go travel to Hole would you volunteer to go travel to Hole would you volunteer to go travel to orbit and not obviously not fall into it orbit and not obviously not fall into it orbit and not obviously not fall into it that's that's obvious so it's obvious to that's that's obvious so it's obvious to that's that's obvious so it's obvious to you that everything's destroyed inside a you that everything's destroyed inside a you that everything's destroyed inside a black hole like all the information black hole like all the information black hole like all the information makes up Gom is destroyed um maybe on makes up Gom is destroyed um maybe on makes up Gom is destroyed um maybe on the other side bef jil's emerges and the other side bef jil's emerges and the other side bef jil's emerges and it's all like is tied together in some it's all like is tied together in some it's all like is tied together in some deeply mimaal way yeah I mean that's a deeply mimaal way yeah I mean that's a deeply mimaal way yeah I mean that's a great question we we have to great question we we have to great question we we have to answer what black holes are are they are answer what black holes are are they are answer what black holes are are they are we punching a hole through SpaceTime and we punching a hole through SpaceTime and we punching a hole through SpaceTime and creating a pocket Universe it's possible creating a pocket Universe it's possible creating a pocket Universe it's possible right then then that would mean that if right then then that would mean that if right then then that would mean that if we Ascend the cev scale to you know we Ascend the cev scale to you know we Ascend the cev scale to you know beyond CF type 3 we could engineer black beyond CF type 3 we could engineer black beyond CF type 3 we could engineer black holes with specific hyperparameters to holes with specific hyperparameters to holes with specific hyperparameters to transmit information to new universes we transmit information to new universes we transmit information to new universes we create and so we can have progyny right create and so we can have progyny right create and so we can have progyny right uh that are new universes and so we even uh that are new universes and so we even uh that are new universes and so we even though our universe may reach a heat

though our universe may reach a heat though our universe may reach a heat death we may have a way to have a legacy death we may have a way to have a legacy death we may have a way to have a legacy right so we don't know yet we need to right so we don't know yet we need to right so we don't know yet we need to ascend the cter shf scale to answer ascend the cter shf scale to answer ascend the cter shf scale to answer these questions right to appear into these questions right to appear into these questions right to appear into that regime of higher energy physics and that regime of higher energy physics and that regime of higher energy physics and maybe you can uh speak to the CF scale maybe you can uh speak to the CF scale maybe you can uh speak to the CF scale for people who don't know so one one of for people who don't know so one one of for people who don't know so one one of the uh sort of mem likee principles and the uh sort of mem likee principles and the uh sort of mem likee principles and goals of uh the eak movement is to goals of uh the eak movement is to goals of uh the eak movement is to ascend The Carter shf scale what is the ascend The Carter shf scale what is the ascend The Carter shf scale what is the cter chef scale and when do we want to cter chef scale and when do we want to cter chef scale and when do we want to ascend it the Carter Chef scale is a ascend it the Carter Chef scale is a ascend it the Carter Chef scale is a measure of our energy production and measure of our energy production and measure of our energy production and consumption um and really it's a consumption um and really it's a consumption um and really it's a logarithmic scale and CEF type one is a logarithmic scale and CEF type one is a logarithmic scale and CEF type one is a milestone where we are producing the milestone where we are producing the milestone where we are producing the equivalent wattage to all the energy equivalent wattage to all the energy equivalent wattage to all the energy that is incident on earth from the sun that is incident on earth from the sun that is incident on earth from the sun cter Chef type 2 would be harnessing all cter Chef type 2 would be harnessing all cter Chef type 2 would be harnessing all the energy that is output by the Sun and the energy that is output by the Sun and the energy that is output by the Sun and I think type three is like the whole I think type three is like the whole I think type three is like the whole galaxy galy I think level yeah yeah yeah galaxy galy I think level yeah yeah yeah galaxy galy I think level yeah yeah yeah and then some people have some crazy and then some people have some crazy and then some people have some crazy type four and five but I don't know if I type four and five but I don't know if I type four and five but I don't know if I believe in those but um to me it seems believe in those but um to me it seems believe in those but um to me it seems like from the first principles of like from the first principles of like from the first principles of thermodynamics that again this there's thermodynamics that again this there's thermodynamics that again this there's this concept of this concept of this concept of thermodynamic uh driven dissipative thermodynamic uh driven dissipative thermodynamic uh driven dissipative adaptation where you know life evolved adaptation where you know life evolved adaptation where you know life evolved on Earth because we have this sort of

on Earth because we have this sort of on Earth because we have this sort of energetic drive from the sun right we energetic drive from the sun right we energetic drive from the sun right we have incident energy and life evolved on have incident energy and life evolved on have incident energy and life evolved on Earth to Earth to Earth to capture figure out ways to best capture capture figure out ways to best capture capture figure out ways to best capture that free energy to maintain itself and that free energy to maintain itself and that free energy to maintain itself and and grow and I think that that principle and grow and I think that that principle and grow and I think that that principle it's not special to our Earth Sun System it's not special to our Earth Sun System it's not special to our Earth Sun System we can extend life well beyond and we we can extend life well beyond and we we can extend life well beyond and we kind of have a responsibility to do so kind of have a responsibility to do so kind of have a responsibility to do so because that's the process that brought because that's the process that brought because that's the process that brought us here so we don't even know what it us here so we don't even know what it us here so we don't even know what it has in store for us in the future it has in store for us in the future it has in store for us in the future it could be something of beauty we can't could be something of beauty we can't could be something of beauty we can't even imagine today right mhm so this is even imagine today right mhm so this is even imagine today right mhm so this is probably a good place to talk a bit probably a good place to talk a bit probably a good place to talk a bit about the eak movement in a substack about the eak movement in a substack about the eak movement in a substack blog post titled what the fuck is eak or blog post titled what the fuck is eak or blog post titled what the fuck is eak or actually what the fstar is eak you write actually what the fstar is eak you write actually what the fstar is eak you write strategically speaking we need to work strategically speaking we need to work strategically speaking we need to work towards several overarching civilization towards several overarching civilization towards several overarching civilization goals that are all goals that are all goals that are all interdependent and the four goals are interdependent and the four goals are interdependent and the four goals are increase the amount of energy we can increase the amount of energy we can increase the amount of energy we can harness as a harness as a harness as a species climb the cesf gradient in the species climb the cesf gradient in the species climb the cesf gradient in the short term this almost certainly means short term this almost certainly means short term this almost certainly means nuclear fion nuclear fion nuclear fion increase human flourishing via prop increase human flourishing via prop increase human flourishing via prop population growth policies and pro eonic population growth policies and pro eonic population growth policies and pro eonic growth growth growth policies create artificial general policies create artificial general policies create artificial general intelligence the single greatest Force intelligence the single greatest Force intelligence the single greatest Force multiplier in human history and finally multiplier in human history and finally multiplier in human history and finally develop interplanetary and Interstellar develop interplanetary and Interstellar develop interplanetary and Interstellar transport so that Humanity can spread transport so that Humanity can spread transport so that Humanity can spread beyond the Earth could you build on top

beyond the Earth could you build on top beyond the Earth could you build on top of that to maybe of that to maybe of that to maybe say what to you is the eak movement what say what to you is the eak movement what say what to you is the eak movement what are the goals what are the are the goals what are the are the goals what are the principles the goal is for the human principles the goal is for the human principles the goal is for the human techn capital mimetic machine to become techn capital mimetic machine to become techn capital mimetic machine to become self-aware and to hypers engineer its self-aware and to hypers engineer its self-aware and to hypers engineer its own growth so let's let's de each of own growth so let's let's de each of own growth so let's let's de each of those uh words so you have humans you those uh words so you have humans you those uh words so you have humans you have technology you have capital and have technology you have capital and have technology you have capital and then you have you have memes information then you have you have memes information then you have you have memes information right and all of those systems are right and all of those systems are right and all of those systems are coupled with one another right humans coupled with one another right humans coupled with one another right humans work at companies they acquire inh work at companies they acquire inh work at companies they acquire inh helicate capital and humans communicate helicate capital and humans communicate helicate capital and humans communicate via memes and information propagation um via memes and information propagation um via memes and information propagation um and our goal was to have a sort of viral and our goal was to have a sort of viral and our goal was to have a sort of viral optimistic movement that is aware of how optimistic movement that is aware of how optimistic movement that is aware of how the system works uh fundamentally it the system works uh fundamentally it the system works uh fundamentally it seeks to grow and we simply want to lean seeks to grow and we simply want to lean seeks to grow and we simply want to lean into the natural tendencies of the into the natural tendencies of the into the natural tendencies of the system to adapt for its own growth um so system to adapt for its own growth um so system to adapt for its own growth um so in that way you write the is literally a in that way you write the is literally a in that way you write the is literally a mimetic optimism virus that is mimetic optimism virus that is mimetic optimism virus that is constantly drifting mutating and constantly drifting mutating and constantly drifting mutating and propagating in a decentralized fashion propagating in a decentralized fashion propagating in a decentralized fashion so mimetic optimism virus so you do want so mimetic optimism virus so you do want so mimetic optimism virus so you do want it to be a virus to to maximize the it to be a virus to to maximize the it to be a virus to to maximize the spread and uh is Hypes therefore the spread and uh is Hypes therefore the spread and uh is Hypes therefore the optimism will incentivize its

optimism will incentivize its optimism will incentivize its growth we see eak as a sort of um metah growth we see eak as a sort of um metah growth we see eak as a sort of um metah huris a a sort of very thin uh cultural huris a a sort of very thin uh cultural huris a a sort of very thin uh cultural framework from which you can have much framework from which you can have much framework from which you can have much more opinionated Forks right more opinionated Forks right more opinionated Forks right fundamentally we just say that it's good fundamentally we just say that it's good fundamentally we just say that it's good the SI what got us here is the SI what got us here is the SI what got us here is this adaptation of the whole system you this adaptation of the whole system you this adaptation of the whole system you know based on thermodynamics and that know based on thermodynamics and that know based on thermodynamics and that process is good and we should keep it process is good and we should keep it process is good and we should keep it going right that is the core thesis going right that is the core thesis going right that is the core thesis everything else is okay how how do we everything else is okay how how do we everything else is okay how how do we ensure that uh we maintain this ensure that uh we maintain this ensure that uh we maintain this malleability and adaptability well malleability and adaptability well malleability and adaptability well clearly not suppressing variance uh and clearly not suppressing variance uh and clearly not suppressing variance uh and and and maintaining uh free speech and and maintaining uh free speech and and maintaining uh free speech freedom of thought Freedom of freedom of thought Freedom of freedom of thought Freedom of Information Information Information propagation and freedom to do AI propagation and freedom to do AI propagation and freedom to do AI research is important for us to converge research is important for us to converge research is important for us to converge the fastest on the space of uh the fastest on the space of uh the fastest on the space of uh Technologies ideas and whatnot that lead Technologies ideas and whatnot that lead Technologies ideas and whatnot that lead to this growth um and so ultimately you to this growth um and so ultimately you to this growth um and so ultimately you know there's been quite a few Forks some know there's been quite a few Forks some know there's been quite a few Forks some are just memes but some are more serious are just memes but some are more serious are just memes but some are more serious right vitalic butterin recently made a right vitalic butterin recently made a right vitalic butterin recently made a diac fork he has his own sort of fine diac fork he has his own sort of fine diac fork he has his own sort of fine tunings of eak does anything jump out to tunings of eak does anything jump out to tunings of eak does anything jump out to memory of the unique characteristic of memory of the unique characteristic of memory of the unique characteristic of that fork from vitalic I would say that that fork from vitalic I would say that that fork from vitalic I would say that it's it's trying to find a middle ground it's it's trying to find a middle ground it's it's trying to find a middle ground between eak and sort of EA and AI safety

between eak and sort of EA and AI safety between eak and sort of EA and AI safety to me like having a movement that is to me like having a movement that is to me like having a movement that is opposite to what was the mainstream opposite to what was the mainstream opposite to what was the mainstream narrative that was taking over Sil value narrative that was taking over Sil value narrative that was taking over Sil value was important to sort of shift the was important to sort of shift the was important to sort of shift the dynamic range of opinions and you know dynamic range of opinions and you know dynamic range of opinions and you know it's it's like the balance between it's it's like the balance between it's it's like the balance between centralization and decentralization the centralization and decentralization the centralization and decentralization the real Optimum is always somewhere in the real Optimum is always somewhere in the real Optimum is always somewhere in the middle right uh but but for eak we're middle right uh but but for eak we're middle right uh but but for eak we're pushing for pushing for pushing for entropy novelty disruption malleability entropy novelty disruption malleability entropy novelty disruption malleability speed uh rather than being like sort of speed uh rather than being like sort of speed uh rather than being like sort of conservative suppressing thought conservative suppressing thought conservative suppressing thought suppressing speech adding constraints suppressing speech adding constraints suppressing speech adding constraints adding too many regulations slowing adding too many regulations slowing adding too many regulations slowing things down and so it's kind of we're things down and so it's kind of we're things down and so it's kind of we're trying to bring balance to the force trying to bring balance to the force trying to bring balance to the force right systems balance to the force human systems balance to the force human civilization yeah it's literally the civilization yeah it's literally the civilization yeah it's literally the forces of constraints versus the forces of constraints versus the forces of constraints versus the entropic force that makes us explore entropic force that makes us explore entropic force that makes us explore right systems are optimal when they're right systems are optimal when they're right systems are optimal when they're at the edge of criticality between Order at the edge of criticality between Order at the edge of criticality between Order and Chaos right between and Chaos right between and Chaos right between constraints um energy minimization and constraints um energy minimization and constraints um energy minimization and entropy right systems want to entropy right systems want to entropy right systems want to equilibrate balance these two things and equilibrate balance these two things and equilibrate balance these two things and so I thought that the balance was so I thought that the balance was so I thought that the balance was lacking and so we created this movement lacking and so we created this movement lacking and so we created this movement to to bring balance well I like how I I to to bring balance well I like how I I to to bring balance well I like how I I like the sort of visual of the lscape of like the sort of visual of the lscape of like the sort of visual of the lscape of ideas evolving through Forks soort of ideas evolving through Forks soort of ideas evolving through Forks soort of kind kind kind of thinking on the other part of

of thinking on the other part of of thinking on the other part of History uh thinking of um Marxism as the History uh thinking of um Marxism as the History uh thinking of um Marxism as the original repository and then Soviet original repository and then Soviet original repository and then Soviet communism is a fork of that and then the communism is a fork of that and then the communism is a fork of that and then the maoism is a fork of the of Marxism and maoism is a fork of the of Marxism and maoism is a fork of the of Marxism and communism so those are all Forks they're communism so those are all Forks they're communism so those are all Forks they're exploring different ideas thinking of exploring different ideas thinking of exploring different ideas thinking of culture almost like code right nowadays culture almost like code right nowadays culture almost like code right nowadays I mean you're what you prompt and the LM I mean you're what you prompt and the LM I mean you're what you prompt and the LM or what you put in the constitution of or what you put in the constitution of or what you put in the constitution of an LM is is is basically its cultural an LM is is is basically its cultural an LM is is is basically its cultural framework what it believes right um and framework what it believes right um and framework what it believes right um and uh you can sh on GitHub nowadays so uh you can sh on GitHub nowadays so uh you can sh on GitHub nowadays so starting trying to take inspiration from starting trying to take inspiration from starting trying to take inspiration from what has worked in the sort of uh what has worked in the sort of uh what has worked in the sort of uh machine of uh software uh to adapt over machine of uh software uh to adapt over machine of uh software uh to adapt over the space of code could we apply that to the space of code could we apply that to the space of code could we apply that to culture and our goal is to not say you culture and our goal is to not say you culture and our goal is to not say you should live your life this way XYZ is to should live your life this way XYZ is to should live your life this way XYZ is to H is to set up a process where people H is to set up a process where people H is to set up a process where people are always searching over subcultures are always searching over subcultures are always searching over subcultures and competing for M here and I think and competing for M here and I think and competing for M here and I think creating this malleability of culture is creating this malleability of culture is creating this malleability of culture is super important for us to converge onto super important for us to converge onto super important for us to converge onto the cultures and the heuristics about the cultures and the heuristics about the cultures and the heuristics about how to live one's life that are updated how to live one's life that are updated how to live one's life that are updated to to modern times because there's to to modern times because there's to to modern times because there's really been a a sort of vacuum of of really been a a sort of vacuum of of really been a a sort of vacuum of of spirituality and culture people don't spirituality and culture people don't spirituality and culture people don't feel like they belong to any one group feel like they belong to any one group feel like they belong to any one group and there's been parasitic ideologies and there's been parasitic ideologies and there's been parasitic ideologies that have taken up opportunity to to

that have taken up opportunity to to that have taken up opportunity to to populate this peachy dish of of Minds populate this peachy dish of of Minds populate this peachy dish of of Minds right uh Elon calls it the Mind virus um right uh Elon calls it the Mind virus um right uh Elon calls it the Mind virus um we call it the the D cell M virus we call it the the D cell M virus we call it the the D cell M virus complex which is a decelerative that is complex which is a decelerative that is complex which is a decelerative that is kind of the the overall pattern between kind of the the overall pattern between kind of the the overall pattern between all of them there's many variants as all of them there's many variants as all of them there's many variants as well um and so you know if there's a well um and so you know if there's a well um and so you know if there's a sort of viral pessimism decelerative sort of viral pessimism decelerative sort of viral pessimism decelerative Movement we needed to have not only one Movement we needed to have not only one Movement we needed to have not only one movement uh but you know many many movement uh but you know many many movement uh but you know many many variants so it's very hard to pinpoint variants so it's very hard to pinpoint variants so it's very hard to pinpoint and stop but the overarching thing is and stop but the overarching thing is and stop but the overarching thing is nevertheless a kind nevertheless a kind nevertheless a kind of um mimetic optimism of um mimetic optimism of um mimetic optimism pandemic so uh I mean okay let me ask pandemic so uh I mean okay let me ask pandemic so uh I mean okay let me ask you do you think iak to some degree is a you do you think iak to some degree is a you do you think iak to some degree is a cult Define cult Define cult Define cult I think a lot of human progress is cult I think a lot of human progress is cult I think a lot of human progress is made when you have independent thought made when you have independent thought made when you have independent thought so you have individuals that are able to so you have individuals that are able to so you have individuals that are able to think freely think freely think freely and very and very and very powerful uh mtic system can kind of lead powerful uh mtic system can kind of lead powerful uh mtic system can kind of lead to group think there's something in to group think there's something in to group think there's something in human nature that leads to like Mass human nature that leads to like Mass human nature that leads to like Mass hypnosis Mass hysteria we start to think hypnosis Mass hysteria we start to think hypnosis Mass hysteria we start to think alike whenever there's a sexy idea that alike whenever there's a sexy idea that alike whenever there's a sexy idea that captures our minds and so it's actually captures our minds and so it's actually captures our minds and so it's actually hard to like break us apart like pull us hard to like break us apart like pull us hard to like break us apart like pull us apart diversify thought so I'm to that apart diversify thought so I'm to that apart diversify thought so I'm to that degree to to which degree is everybody degree to to which degree is everybody degree to to which degree is everybody kind of chanting eak eak like the sheep kind of chanting eak eak like the sheep kind of chanting eak eak like the sheep and Animal Farm well first of all it's

and Animal Farm well first of all it's and Animal Farm well first of all it's fun it's rebellious right like fun it's rebellious right like fun it's rebellious right like you know you know you know many um I I I think we lean into there many um I I I think we lean into there many um I I I think we lean into there there there's this concept of sort of there there's this concept of sort of there there's this concept of sort of meta irony right of of sort of being on meta irony right of of sort of being on meta irony right of of sort of being on the boundary of like we're not sure if the boundary of like we're not sure if the boundary of like we're not sure if they're serious or not and it's it's they're serious or not and it's it's they're serious or not and it's it's much more playful and much more fun much more playful and much more fun much more playful and much more fun right like um for example we talk about right like um for example we talk about right like um for example we talk about thermodynamics being our God right um thermodynamics being our God right um thermodynamics being our God right um and sometimes we do cult-like things but and sometimes we do cult-like things but and sometimes we do cult-like things but there's no like ceremony and and robes there's no like ceremony and and robes there's no like ceremony and and robes and whatnot uh so not yet and whatnot uh so not yet and whatnot uh so not yet uh but ultimately yeah I I mean I uh but ultimately yeah I I mean I uh but ultimately yeah I I mean I totally agree that it seems to me that totally agree that it seems to me that totally agree that it seems to me that humans want to feel like they're part of humans want to feel like they're part of humans want to feel like they're part of a group so they naturally try to agree a group so they naturally try to agree a group so they naturally try to agree with their neighbors and and find common with their neighbors and and find common with their neighbors and and find common ground and and that leads to sort of ground and and that leads to sort of ground and and that leads to sort of mode collapse in the space of ideas mode collapse in the space of ideas mode collapse in the space of ideas right we used to have sort of one right we used to have sort of one right we used to have sort of one cultural uh Island that was allowed it cultural uh Island that was allowed it cultural uh Island that was allowed it was a typical Subspace of thought and was a typical Subspace of thought and was a typical Subspace of thought and anything that was diverting from that anything that was diverting from that anything that was diverting from that Subspace of thought was suppressed or Subspace of thought was suppressed or Subspace of thought was suppressed or you were canceled right now we've you were canceled right now we've you were canceled right now we've created a new mode but the whole point created a new mode but the whole point created a new mode but the whole point is that we're not trying to have very is that we're not trying to have very is that we're not trying to have very restricted space of thought there's not restricted space of thought there's not restricted space of thought there's not just one way to think about eak and its just one way to think about eak and its just one way to think about eak and its many forks and and the point is that many forks and and the point is that many forks and and the point is that there are many forks and there can be there are many forks and there can be there are many forks and there can be many clusters and many islands and I many clusters and many islands and I many clusters and many islands and I shouldn't be in control of it uh in any shouldn't be in control of it uh in any shouldn't be in control of it uh in any way uh I mean there's no formal org uh way uh I mean there's no formal org uh way uh I mean there's no formal org uh whatsoever uh I just put out uh tweets

whatsoever uh I just put out uh tweets whatsoever uh I just put out uh tweets and and uh certain blog posts and people and and uh certain blog posts and people and and uh certain blog posts and people are free to defect and Fork if there's are free to defect and Fork if there's are free to defect and Fork if there's an aspect they don't like and so that an aspect they don't like and so that an aspect they don't like and so that makes it so that there should be a sort makes it so that there should be a sort makes it so that there should be a sort of deter deterritorialization in the of deter deterritorialization in the of deter deterritorialization in the space of ideas so that we don't end up space of ideas so that we don't end up space of ideas so that we don't end up in one cluster that's very cult-like um in one cluster that's very cult-like um in one cluster that's very cult-like um and so Cults usually the they don't they and so Cults usually the they don't they and so Cults usually the they don't they don't allow people to defect or start don't allow people to defect or start don't allow people to defect or start competing Forks whereas we encourage it competing Forks whereas we encourage it competing Forks whereas we encourage it right do you think just the humor right do you think just the humor right do you think just the humor the pros and cons of humor and the pros and cons of humor and the pros and cons of humor and meme so in some sense meme so in some sense meme so in some sense meme there's like a wisdom to meme there's like a wisdom to meme there's like a wisdom to memes um what is it the Magic Theater memes um what is it the Magic Theater memes um what is it the Magic Theater what book is that from Harman has a um what book is that from Harman has a um what book is that from Harman has a um steppen wolf I think but there there's steppen wolf I think but there there's steppen wolf I think but there there's a there's a kind of embracing of the a there's a kind of embracing of the a there's a kind of embracing of the absurdity that seems to get to the truth absurdity that seems to get to the truth absurdity that seems to get to the truth of things but at the same time it can of things but at the same time it can of things but at the same time it can also decrease the quality and the rigor also decrease the quality and the rigor also decrease the quality and the rigor of the discourse yeah do you feel the of the discourse yeah do you feel the of the discourse yeah do you feel the tension of that yeah so initially I tension of that yeah so initially I tension of that yeah so initially I think what allowed us to grow under the think what allowed us to grow under the think what allowed us to grow under the radar was because it was camouflaged as radar was because it was camouflaged as radar was because it was camouflaged as sort of meta ironic right we would sneak sort of meta ironic right we would sneak sort of meta ironic right we would sneak in you know I deep truths within a in you know I deep truths within a in you know I deep truths within a package of humor and humor and memes and package of humor and humor and memes and package of humor and humor and memes and what are called shit posts right um and what are called shit posts right um and what are called shit posts right um and I think that was purposefully a sort of

I think that was purposefully a sort of I think that was purposefully a sort of camouflage against those that um seek camouflage against those that um seek camouflage against those that um seek status and do not want to it's very hard status and do not want to it's very hard status and do not want to it's very hard to argue with a cartoon frog or to argue with a cartoon frog or to argue with a cartoon frog or a a a cartoon of an Intergalactic Jeff a a a cartoon of an Intergalactic Jeff a a a cartoon of an Intergalactic Jeff Bezos um and take yourself seriously Bezos um and take yourself seriously Bezos um and take yourself seriously yeah and so that allowed allowed us to yeah and so that allowed allowed us to yeah and so that allowed allowed us to grow uh pretty rapidly in the early days grow uh pretty rapidly in the early days grow uh pretty rapidly in the early days but um of course like that's but um of course like that's but um of course like that's you know essentially people get steered you know essentially people get steered you know essentially people get steered their notion of the truth comes from the their notion of the truth comes from the their notion of the truth comes from the data they see from from the information data they see from from the information data they see from from the information they're fed and the information people they're fed and the information people they're fed and the information people are fed is determined by algorithms are fed is determined by algorithms are fed is determined by algorithms right and really what we've been doing right and really what we've been doing right and really what we've been doing is sort of uh engineering what we call is sort of uh engineering what we call is sort of uh engineering what we call High mimetic Fitness uh packets of High mimetic Fitness uh packets of High mimetic Fitness uh packets of information so that they can spread information so that they can spread information so that they can spread effectively and carry a message right so effectively and carry a message right so effectively and carry a message right so it's it's kind of a it's it's kind of a it's it's kind of a a vector to Spread spread the message a vector to Spread spread the message a vector to Spread spread the message and and yes we've been using sort of and and yes we've been using sort of and and yes we've been using sort of techniques that are optimal for for techniques that are optimal for for techniques that are optimal for for today's algorithmically Amplified today's algorithmically Amplified today's algorithmically Amplified information Landscapes um but I think information Landscapes um but I think information Landscapes um but I think we're reaching the point of you know we're reaching the point of you know we're reaching the point of you know scale where we can have serious debates scale where we can have serious debates scale where we can have serious debates and serious conversations and um you and serious conversations and um you and serious conversations and um you know that's why we're considering doing know that's why we're considering doing know that's why we're considering doing a bunch of uh debates and having more a bunch of uh debates and having more a bunch of uh debates and having more serious long form discussions because I serious long form discussions because I serious long form discussions because I don't think that don't think that don't think that um the timeline is optimal for sort of

um the timeline is optimal for sort of um the timeline is optimal for sort of very serious thoughtful discussions and very serious thoughtful discussions and very serious thoughtful discussions and get you get rewarded for sort of uh get you get rewarded for sort of uh get you get rewarded for sort of uh polarization right and so um even though polarization right and so um even though polarization right and so um even though we started a movement that is literally we started a movement that is literally we started a movement that is literally trying to polarize the the tech trying to polarize the the tech trying to polarize the the tech ecosystem um at the end of the day so ecosystem um at the end of the day so ecosystem um at the end of the day so that we can have a conversation and find that we can have a conversation and find that we can have a conversation and find an Optimum together I mean that's kind an Optimum together I mean that's kind an Optimum together I mean that's kind of what I try to do with this podcast of what I try to do with this podcast of what I try to do with this podcast given the landscape of things to still given the landscape of things to still given the landscape of things to still have long form conversations but there have long form conversations but there have long form conversations but there is a degree to which uh absurdity is is a degree to which uh absurdity is is a degree to which uh absurdity is fully embraced in fact this very fully embraced in fact this very fully embraced in fact this very conversation is conversation is conversation is multi- uh level absurd so first of all I multi- uh level absurd so first of all I multi- uh level absurd so first of all I should say that I just very recently had should say that I just very recently had should say that I just very recently had a conversation with Jeff a conversation with Jeff a conversation with Jeff Bezos and uh I would love to hear Bezos and uh I would love to hear Bezos and uh I would love to hear your Beth your Beth your Beth Jos opinions of Jeff Bezos speaking of Jos opinions of Jeff Bezos speaking of Jos opinions of Jeff Bezos speaking of inter Galactic Jeff Bezos uh what do you inter Galactic Jeff Bezos uh what do you inter Galactic Jeff Bezos uh what do you think of that particular individual whom think of that particular individual whom think of that particular individual whom your name is inspired yeah I mean I your name is inspired yeah I mean I your name is inspired yeah I mean I think Jeff is really great I mean he's think Jeff is really great I mean he's think Jeff is really great I mean he's built one of the most epic companies of built one of the most epic companies of built one of the most epic companies of all time he's leveraged the techn all time he's leveraged the techn all time he's leveraged the techn capital machine and techn capital capital machine and techn capital capital machine and techn capital acceleration acceleration acceleration to give us what we wanted right we want to give us what we wanted right we want to give us what we wanted right we want uh quick delivery very convenient at uh quick delivery very convenient at uh quick delivery very convenient at home low prices right he home low prices right he home low prices right he understood how the machine worked and understood how the machine worked and understood how the machine worked and how to harness it right like running the how to harness it right like running the how to harness it right like running the company uh not trying to take profits

company uh not trying to take profits company uh not trying to take profits too early putting it back putting too early putting it back putting too early putting it back putting letting the system compound and keep letting the system compound and keep letting the system compound and keep improving and you know arguably I think improving and you know arguably I think improving and you know arguably I think Amazon's invested some of the most Amazon's invested some of the most Amazon's invested some of the most amount of capital and Robotics out there amount of capital and Robotics out there amount of capital and Robotics out there um and certainly with the birth of AWS um and certainly with the birth of AWS um and certainly with the birth of AWS kind of um enabled the sort of tech boom kind of um enabled the sort of tech boom kind of um enabled the sort of tech boom we've seen today that has paid the we've seen today that has paid the we've seen today that has paid the salaries of you know I guess myself all salaries of you know I guess myself all salaries of you know I guess myself all of our friends to some extent and so I I of our friends to some extent and so I I of our friends to some extent and so I I think we can all be grateful to you know think we can all be grateful to you know think we can all be grateful to you know Jeff and he's one of the great Jeff and he's one of the great Jeff and he's one of the great entrepreneurs uh out there one of the entrepreneurs uh out there one of the entrepreneurs uh out there one of the best of all time unarguably uh and of best of all time unarguably uh and of best of all time unarguably uh and of course the the work at Blue origin course the the work at Blue origin course the the work at Blue origin similar to the work at SpaceX is trying similar to the work at SpaceX is trying similar to the work at SpaceX is trying to make humans and multiplanetary to make humans and multiplanetary to make humans and multiplanetary species species species which seems almost like a bigger thing which seems almost like a bigger thing which seems almost like a bigger thing than the capitalist machine or it's a than the capitalist machine or it's a than the capitalist machine or it's a capitalist machine at a different time capitalist machine at a different time capitalist machine at a different time scale perhaps yeah I I think that um you scale perhaps yeah I I think that um you scale perhaps yeah I I think that um you know companies they tend to optimize you know companies they tend to optimize you know companies they tend to optimize you know quarter over quarter maybe a few know quarter over quarter maybe a few know quarter over quarter maybe a few years out but individuals that want to years out but individuals that want to years out but individuals that want to leave a legacy can think on a leave a legacy can think on a leave a legacy can think on a multi-decadal or multi-century time multi-decadal or multi-century time multi-decadal or multi-century time scale and so the fact that some scale and so the fact that some scale and so the fact that some individuals are such good Capital individuals are such good Capital individuals are such good Capital allocators that they unlock the ability allocators that they unlock the ability allocators that they unlock the ability to allocate capitals to goals that take to allocate capitals to goals that take to allocate capitals to goals that take us much further or are much further us much further or are much further us much further or are much further looking you know elon's doing this looking you know elon's doing this looking you know elon's doing this with SpaceX putting all this Capital with SpaceX putting all this Capital with SpaceX putting all this Capital towards getting us to Mars um uh Jeff is

towards getting us to Mars um uh Jeff is towards getting us to Mars um uh Jeff is trying to build blue origin and I think trying to build blue origin and I think trying to build blue origin and I think he wants to build O'Neal cylinders and he wants to build O'Neal cylinders and he wants to build O'Neal cylinders and get industry off Planet uh which I think get industry off Planet uh which I think get industry off Planet uh which I think is brilliant um I think you know just is brilliant um I think you know just is brilliant um I think you know just overall I'm I'm for billionaires I know overall I'm I'm for billionaires I know overall I'm I'm for billionaires I know this controversial statement sometimes this controversial statement sometimes this controversial statement sometimes but I think that uh in a sense it's kind but I think that uh in a sense it's kind but I think that uh in a sense it's kind of a a proof of stake voting right like of a a proof of stake voting right like of a a proof of stake voting right like if you've acquire if you've allocated if you've acquire if you've allocated if you've acquire if you've allocated Capital efficiently you get you unlock Capital efficiently you get you unlock Capital efficiently you get you unlock more Capital to allocate just because more Capital to allocate just because more Capital to allocate just because clearly you know how to allocate Capital clearly you know how to allocate Capital clearly you know how to allocate Capital more efficiently which is in contrast to more efficiently which is in contrast to more efficiently which is in contrast to politicians that get elected because politicians that get elected because politicians that get elected because they speak the best on TV right not they speak the best on TV right not they speak the best on TV right not because they have a proven track record because they have a proven track record because they have a proven track record of allocating taxpayer Capital most of allocating taxpayer Capital most of allocating taxpayer Capital most efficiently and so that's why I'm for uh efficiently and so that's why I'm for uh efficiently and so that's why I'm for uh capitalism uh over say giving all our capitalism uh over say giving all our capitalism uh over say giving all our money to the government and letting them money to the government and letting them money to the government and letting them figure out how to allocate it so yeah figure out how to allocate it so yeah figure out how to allocate it so yeah why do you think why do you think why do you think it's a viral and a popular meme to it's a viral and a popular meme to it's a viral and a popular meme to criticize billionaires since you criticize billionaires since you criticize billionaires since you mentioned billionaires why do you think mentioned billionaires why do you think mentioned billionaires why do you think there's quite a there's quite a there's quite a widespread widespread widespread criticism of of people with wealth criticism of of people with wealth criticism of of people with wealth especially those in the public eye like especially those in the public eye like especially those in the public eye like Jeff and Elon and Mark Zuckerberg and uh Jeff and Elon and Mark Zuckerberg and uh Jeff and Elon and Mark Zuckerberg and uh who else Bill Gates yeah I think a lot who else Bill Gates yeah I think a lot who else Bill Gates yeah I think a lot of people would instead of trying to of people would instead of trying to of people would instead of trying to understand how the techn capit capital understand how the techn capit capital understand how the techn capit capital machine works and realizing they have machine works and realizing they have machine works and realizing they have much more agency than they think they'd

much more agency than they think they'd much more agency than they think they'd rather have the sort of victim mindset rather have the sort of victim mindset rather have the sort of victim mindset I'm just subjected to this machine it is I'm just subjected to this machine it is I'm just subjected to this machine it is oppressing me um and and the successful oppressing me um and and the successful oppressing me um and and the successful players clearly must be must must be players clearly must be must must be players clearly must be must must be evil because they've been successful at evil because they've been successful at evil because they've been successful at this game that I'm not successful at but this game that I'm not successful at but this game that I'm not successful at but you know I've managed to get some people you know I've managed to get some people you know I've managed to get some people that were in that mindset and make them that were in that mindset and make them that were in that mindset and make them realize how the the techn capital realize how the the techn capital realize how the the techn capital machine works and how you can harness it machine works and how you can harness it machine works and how you can harness it uh uh for your own good and and for the uh uh for your own good and and for the uh uh for your own good and and for the good of others and by creating value you good of others and by creating value you good of others and by creating value you capture some of value you create for the capture some of value you create for the capture some of value you create for the world and and that sort of positive sum world and and that sort of positive sum world and and that sort of positive sum mindset shift is so potent and really mindset shift is so potent and really mindset shift is so potent and really that's what that's what we're trying to that's what that's what we're trying to that's what that's what we're trying to do by scaling eak is sort of unlocking do by scaling eak is sort of unlocking do by scaling eak is sort of unlocking that higher level of agency like that higher level of agency like that higher level of agency like actually have you're far more in control actually have you're far more in control actually have you're far more in control of the future than you think you have of the future than you think you have of the future than you think you have agency to change the world go out and do agency to change the world go out and do agency to change the world go out and do it you have per here's permission each it you have per here's permission each it you have per here's permission each individual has agency individual has agency individual has agency uh the motto keep building is often uh the motto keep building is often uh the motto keep building is often heard right what does that mean to you heard right what does that mean to you heard right what does that mean to you and what does it have to do with Diet and what does it have to do with Diet and what does it have to do with Diet Coke well by the way thank you so much Coke well by the way thank you so much Coke well by the way thank you so much for the Red Bull it's it's working for the Red Bull it's it's working for the Red Bull it's it's working pretty well I'm feeling pretty good pretty well I'm feeling pretty good pretty well I'm feeling pretty good awesome um well so so building awesome um well so so building awesome um well so so building Technologies and and building it doesn't Technologies and and building it doesn't Technologies and and building it doesn't have to be Technologies just building in have to be Technologies just building in have to be Technologies just building in general um means you know having agency general um means you know having agency general um means you know having agency trying to change the world by creating trying to change the world by creating trying to change the world by creating let's say a company which is a self- let's say a company which is a self- let's say a company which is a self- sustaining sustaining sustaining organism uh uh that you know organism uh uh that you know organism uh uh that you know accomplishes a function in the broader

accomplishes a function in the broader accomplishes a function in the broader techn Capital machine to us that's the techn Capital machine to us that's the techn Capital machine to us that's the way to achieve change in the world that way to achieve change in the world that way to achieve change in the world that you'd like to see rather than say you'd like to see rather than say you'd like to see rather than say pressuring polititions or creating pressuring polititions or creating pressuring polititions or creating nonprofits that you know nonprofits once nonprofits that you know nonprofits once nonprofits that you know nonprofits once they run out of money their function can they run out of money their function can they run out of money their function can no longer be accomplished you're kind of no longer be accomplished you're kind of no longer be accomplished you're kind of deforming the market artificially deforming the market artificially deforming the market artificially compared to sort of subverting or compared to sort of subverting or compared to sort of subverting or chusing the market to or or dancing with chusing the market to or or dancing with chusing the market to or or dancing with the market to to convince it that the market to to convince it that the market to to convince it that actually this function is important adds actually this function is important adds actually this function is important adds value and here it is right and so I value and here it is right and so I value and here it is right and so I think you know this is sort of the way think you know this is sort of the way think you know this is sort of the way between the sort of degrowth like ESG between the sort of degrowth like ESG between the sort of degrowth like ESG approach versus say Elon right the approach versus say Elon right the approach versus say Elon right the degrowth approach is like we're going to degrowth approach is like we're going to degrowth approach is like we're going to manage our way out of a climate crisis manage our way out of a climate crisis manage our way out of a climate crisis and Elon is like I'm going to build a and Elon is like I'm going to build a and Elon is like I'm going to build a company that is self- sustaining company that is self- sustaining company that is self- sustaining profitable and growing and it's we're profitable and growing and it's we're profitable and growing and it's we're going to innovate our way out of this going to innovate our way out of this going to innovate our way out of this dilemma right and and we're trying to dilemma right and and we're trying to dilemma right and and we're trying to get people to do the latter rather than get people to do the latter rather than get people to do the latter rather than the former at all the former at all the former at all scales Elon is an interesting case so scales Elon is an interesting case so scales Elon is an interesting case so you are a proponent you celebrate Elon you are a proponent you celebrate Elon you are a proponent you celebrate Elon but he's also somebody who has for long but he's also somebody who has for long but he's also somebody who has for long time warned about uh the dangers the time warned about uh the dangers the time warned about uh the dangers the potential dangers existential risks of potential dangers existential risks of potential dangers existential risks of artificial intelligence how do you artificial intelligence how do you artificial intelligence how do you square the two is that a contradiction square the two is that a contradiction square the two is that a contradiction to you it is somewhat because he's very to you it is somewhat because he's very to you it is somewhat because he's very much against regulation in many aspects much against regulation in many aspects much against regulation in many aspects but uh for AI he's he's definitely um but uh for AI he's he's definitely um but uh for AI he's he's definitely um you know a proponent of of regulations I

you know a proponent of of regulations I you know a proponent of of regulations I think I think overall you know he saw think I think overall you know he saw think I think overall you know he saw the dangers of say open AI you know the dangers of say open AI you know the dangers of say open AI you know cornering the market and then getting to cornering the market and then getting to cornering the market and then getting to have the Monopoly over uh the cultural have the Monopoly over uh the cultural have the Monopoly over uh the cultural priors that you can embed in these llms priors that you can embed in these llms priors that you can embed in these llms that then you know as as llms now become that then you know as as llms now become that then you know as as llms now become the source of Truth for people then you the source of Truth for people then you the source of Truth for people then you can shape the culture of the people and can shape the culture of the people and can shape the culture of the people and so you can control people by controlling so you can control people by controlling so you can control people by controlling LMS and he saw that just like it was the LMS and he saw that just like it was the LMS and he saw that just like it was the case for social media uh if you shape case for social media uh if you shape case for social media uh if you shape the function of information propagation the function of information propagation the function of information propagation you can shape people's opinions he's he you can shape people's opinions he's he you can shape people's opinions he's he he sought to make it competitor so at he sought to make it competitor so at he sought to make it competitor so at least like I think we're very aligned least like I think we're very aligned least like I think we're very aligned there that you know they the way to a there that you know they the way to a there that you know they the way to a good future is to maintain sort of good future is to maintain sort of good future is to maintain sort of adversarial equilibria between the adversarial equilibria between the adversarial equilibria between the various AI players um I love to talk to various AI players um I love to talk to various AI players um I love to talk to him to understand sort of his thinking him to understand sort of his thinking him to understand sort of his thinking about uh how to make you know how to about uh how to make you know how to about uh how to make you know how to advance AI going forwards I mean he's advance AI going forwards I mean he's advance AI going forwards I mean he's also hedging his bets I would say you also hedging his bets I would say you also hedging his bets I would say you know with neuralink right I think if he know with neuralink right I think if he know with neuralink right I think if he can't stop the progress of AI you know can't stop the progress of AI you know can't stop the progress of AI you know he's building the technology to merge so he's building the technology to merge so he's building the technology to merge so you know uh look at the actions uh not you know uh look at the actions uh not you know uh look at the actions uh not just the words but well I mean there's just the words but well I mean there's just the words but well I mean there's some degree where being concerned maybe some degree where being concerned maybe some degree where being concerned maybe using human psychology being concerned using human psychology being concerned using human psychology being concerned about threats all around us as a about threats all around us as a about threats all around us as a motivator like uh it's an encouraging motivator like uh it's an encouraging motivator like uh it's an encouraging thing I operate much better when there's thing I operate much better when there's thing I operate much better when there's a deadline the fear of the deadline like a deadline the fear of the deadline like a deadline the fear of the deadline like and I for myself create artificial

and I for myself create artificial and I for myself create artificial things like I I want to create in myself things like I I want to create in myself things like I I want to create in myself this kind of anxiety as if something this kind of anxiety as if something this kind of anxiety as if something really horrible will happen if I miss really horrible will happen if I miss really horrible will happen if I miss the deadline I think there's some degree the deadline I think there's some degree the deadline I think there's some degree of of that here because creating AI of of that here because creating AI of of that here because creating AI That's aligned with humans has a lot of That's aligned with humans has a lot of That's aligned with humans has a lot of potential benefits and so a different potential benefits and so a different potential benefits and so a different way to reframe that is if you don't way to reframe that is if you don't way to reframe that is if you don't you're we're all going to die it just you're we're all going to die it just you're we're all going to die it just seems to be a very powerful seems to be a very powerful seems to be a very powerful psychological psychological psychological formulation of the goal of creating formulation of the goal of creating formulation of the goal of creating human allign AI I think that anxiety is human allign AI I think that anxiety is human allign AI I think that anxiety is good I think like I said I want the the good I think like I said I want the the good I think like I said I want the the free market to to create aligned AIS um free market to to create aligned AIS um free market to to create aligned AIS um that are reliable uh and I think that's that are reliable uh and I think that's that are reliable uh and I think that's what he's trying to do with uh xai um so what he's trying to do with uh xai um so what he's trying to do with uh xai um so I'm all for it what what I am against is I'm all for it what what I am against is I'm all for it what what I am against is sort of sort of sort of um stopping let's say the open source um stopping let's say the open source um stopping let's say the open source ecosystem from Tri thriving right by ecosystem from Tri thriving right by ecosystem from Tri thriving right by let's say in the executive order let's say in the executive order let's say in the executive order claiming that op Source LMS or dual use claiming that op Source LMS or dual use claiming that op Source LMS or dual use Technologies and should be government Technologies and should be government Technologies and should be government controlled then everybody needs to controlled then everybody needs to controlled then everybody needs to register their GPU and their big register their GPU and their big register their GPU and their big matrices with the government and I think matrices with the government and I think matrices with the government and I think that extra uh friction will dissuade a that extra uh friction will dissuade a that extra uh friction will dissuade a lot of Hackers from contributing hackers lot of Hackers from contributing hackers lot of Hackers from contributing hackers that could later become the the that could later become the the that could later become the the researchers that uh make key discoveries researchers that uh make key discoveries researchers that uh make key discoveries that push us forward right uh including that push us forward right uh including that push us forward right uh including discoveries for AI safety and so I think discoveries for AI safety and so I think discoveries for AI safety and so I think I I just want to maintain ubiquity of I I just want to maintain ubiquity of I I just want to maintain ubiquity of opportunity to contribute to Ai and and opportunity to contribute to Ai and and opportunity to contribute to Ai and and to own a piece of the future right it

to own a piece of the future right it to own a piece of the future right it can't just be can't just be can't just be legislated uh you know behind some wall legislated uh you know behind some wall legislated uh you know behind some wall where only a few players get to play the where only a few players get to play the where only a few players get to play the game I mean so the eak movement is often game I mean so the eak movement is often game I mean so the eak movement is often sort of sort of sort of caricatured to mean sort of uh progress caricatured to mean sort of uh progress caricatured to mean sort of uh progress and Innovation at all at all costs and Innovation at all at all costs and Innovation at all at all costs doesn't matter how unsafe it is doesn't doesn't matter how unsafe it is doesn't doesn't matter how unsafe it is doesn't matter if it cause a lot of damage you matter if it cause a lot of damage you matter if it cause a lot of damage you just build build cool shit as fast as just build build cool shit as fast as just build build cool shit as fast as possible stay up all night with a Diet possible stay up all night with a Diet possible stay up all night with a Diet Coke uh whatever it Coke uh whatever it Coke uh whatever it takes I think I guess I don't know if takes I think I guess I don't know if takes I think I guess I don't know if there's a question in there but how there's a question in there but how there's a question in there but how important to you and what you've seen important to you and what you've seen important to you and what you've seen the different formulations of eak is the different formulations of eak is the different formulations of eak is safety is AI safety is AI safety is AI safety I think again I think like if safety I think again I think like if safety I think again I think like if there was no one working on it I think I there was no one working on it I think I there was no one working on it I think I would be a proponent sure of it I think would be a proponent sure of it I think would be a proponent sure of it I think again our goal is to sort of bring again our goal is to sort of bring again our goal is to sort of bring balance and obviously a sense of urgency balance and obviously a sense of urgency balance and obviously a sense of urgency is a useful tool right to make uh is a useful tool right to make uh is a useful tool right to make uh progress it hacks our dopaminergic progress it hacks our dopaminergic progress it hacks our dopaminergic systems and gives us energy to to work systems and gives us energy to to work systems and gives us energy to to work late into the night I think also having late into the night I think also having late into the night I think also having a higher purpose you're contributing to a higher purpose you're contributing to a higher purpose you're contributing to right at the end of the day it's like right at the end of the day it's like right at the end of the day it's like what am I contributing to I'm what am I contributing to I'm what am I contributing to I'm contributing to the growth of this contributing to the growth of this contributing to the growth of this beautiful machine so that we beautiful machine so that we beautiful machine so that we seek to the Stars that's really seek to the Stars that's really seek to the Stars that's really inspiring that's also a sort of uh neuro inspiring that's also a sort of uh neuro inspiring that's also a sort of uh neuro uh hack so you're saying AI safety is uh hack so you're saying AI safety is uh hack so you're saying AI safety is important to you but right now the important to you but right now the important to you but right now the landscape of ideas you see is AI safety

landscape of ideas you see is AI safety landscape of ideas you see is AI safety as a topic is used more often to gain as a topic is used more often to gain as a topic is used more often to gain centralized control so in that sense centralized control so in that sense centralized control so in that sense you're resisting it as a proxy for you're resisting it as a proxy for you're resisting it as a proxy for centralized gaining centralized control centralized gaining centralized control centralized gaining centralized control yeah I I I I just think we we have to be yeah I I I I just think we we have to be yeah I I I I just think we we have to be careful because um you know safety is careful because um you know safety is careful because um you know safety is just the perfect cover for sort of just the perfect cover for sort of just the perfect cover for sort of centralization of power and covering up centralization of power and covering up centralization of power and covering up eventually corruption I don't I'm not eventually corruption I don't I'm not eventually corruption I don't I'm not saying it's corrupted now but it could saying it's corrupted now but it could saying it's corrupted now but it could be uh down the line and be uh down the line and be uh down the line and really if you if you let the argument really if you if you let the argument really if you if you let the argument run like there's no amount of sort of run like there's no amount of sort of run like there's no amount of sort of centralization of control that will be centralization of control that will be centralization of control that will be enough to ensure your safety there's enough to ensure your safety there's enough to ensure your safety there's always more nine n nines of PE safety always more nine n nines of PE safety always more nine n nines of PE safety that you can gain you know that you can gain you know that you can gain you know 99.99999% safe maybe you want another 99.99999% safe maybe you want another 99.99999% safe maybe you want another nine oh please give us full access to nine oh please give us full access to nine oh please give us full access to everything you do full surveillance and everything you do full surveillance and everything you do full surveillance and and and frankly those that are and and frankly those that are and and frankly those that are proponents of AI safety have proposed proponents of AI safety have proposed proponents of AI safety have proposed like having a global like having a global like having a global panopticon right where you have panopticon right where you have panopticon right where you have centralized perception of everything centralized perception of everything centralized perception of everything going on and to me that just opens up going on and to me that just opens up going on and to me that just opens up the door wide open for a sort of Big the door wide open for a sort of Big the door wide open for a sort of Big Brother 1984 like scenario and that's Brother 1984 like scenario and that's Brother 1984 like scenario and that's not a future I want to live in cuz we not a future I want to live in cuz we not a future I want to live in cuz we know we have some examples throughout know we have some examples throughout know we have some examples throughout history when that did not lead to a good history when that did not lead to a good history when that did not lead to a good outcome right you mentioned you founded outcome right you mentioned you founded outcome right you mentioned you founded a company ex a company ex a company ex Tropic uh that recently announced a 14.1 Tropic uh that recently announced a 14.1 Tropic uh that recently announced a 14.1 million seed round uh what's the goal of

million seed round uh what's the goal of million seed round uh what's the goal of the company you're talking about a lot the company you're talking about a lot the company you're talking about a lot of interesting physics things so what of interesting physics things so what of interesting physics things so what what are you up to over there that you what are you up to over there that you what are you up to over there that you can talk can talk can talk about yeah I mean you know originally we about yeah I mean you know originally we about yeah I mean you know originally we weren't going to announce last week uh weren't going to announce last week uh weren't going to announce last week uh but I think with uh the doxing in but I think with uh the doxing in but I think with uh the doxing in disclosure we got our our hand forced so disclosure we got our our hand forced so disclosure we got our our hand forced so we we had to disclose roughly what we we we had to disclose roughly what we we we had to disclose roughly what we we're doing but really ex stopic was we're doing but really ex stopic was we're doing but really ex stopic was born from my dissatisfaction and and born from my dissatisfaction and and born from my dissatisfaction and and that of my colleagues with uh the that of my colleagues with uh the that of my colleagues with uh the quantum Computing uh road map right quantum Computing uh road map right quantum Computing uh road map right Quantum Computing was sort of the first Quantum Computing was sort of the first Quantum Computing was sort of the first path to physics-based path to physics-based path to physics-based Computing that you know was trying to Computing that you know was trying to Computing that you know was trying to commercially scale and I was working on commercially scale and I was working on commercially scale and I was working on physics based AI that runs on these physics based AI that runs on these physics based AI that runs on these physics based computers but ultimately physics based computers but ultimately physics based computers but ultimately our greatest enemy was this noise this our greatest enemy was this noise this our greatest enemy was this noise this pervasive problem of noise that you know pervasive problem of noise that you know pervasive problem of noise that you know as I mention you have to constantly pump as I mention you have to constantly pump as I mention you have to constantly pump out the noise out of the system to out the noise out of the system to out the noise out of the system to maintain this pristine environment where maintain this pristine environment where maintain this pristine environment where quantum mechanics can take effect and quantum mechanics can take effect and quantum mechanics can take effect and that constraint was just too much it's that constraint was just too much it's that constraint was just too much it's too costly to do too costly to do too costly to do that and so we were wondering right as that and so we were wondering right as that and so we were wondering right as um general of AI is sort of eating the um general of AI is sort of eating the um general of AI is sort of eating the world more and more of the world's world more and more of the world's world more and more of the world's computational workloads are focused on computational workloads are focused on computational workloads are focused on geni how could we use physics to geni how could we use physics to geni how could we use physics to engineer the ultimate physical substrate engineer the ultimate physical substrate engineer the ultimate physical substrate for gener of AI right from first for gener of AI right from first for gener of AI right from first principles of physics of information principles of physics of information principles of physics of information theory of computation and ultimately of

theory of computation and ultimately of theory of computation and ultimately of thermodynamics right and so what we're thermodynamics right and so what we're thermodynamics right and so what we're seeking to build is a physics-based seeking to build is a physics-based seeking to build is a physics-based Computing system and physics based AI Computing system and physics based AI Computing system and physics based AI algorithms um that are inspired by uh algorithms um that are inspired by uh algorithms um that are inspired by uh out of equilibrium thermodynamics or out of equilibrium thermodynamics or out of equilibrium thermodynamics or harness it uh directly uh to do machine harness it uh directly uh to do machine harness it uh directly uh to do machine learning as a physical learning as a physical learning as a physical process so what does that mean machine process so what does that mean machine process so what does that mean machine learning is a physical process is that learning is a physical process is that learning is a physical process is that Hardware is it software is it both is it Hardware is it software is it both is it Hardware is it software is it both is it trying to do the full stack in some kind trying to do the full stack in some kind trying to do the full stack in some kind of unique way yes it it it is full stack of unique way yes it it it is full stack of unique way yes it it it is full stack and so we're folks that have built uh and so we're folks that have built uh and so we're folks that have built uh you know differentiable programming into you know differentiable programming into you know differentiable programming into the quantum Computing ecosystem with the quantum Computing ecosystem with the quantum Computing ecosystem with tensorflow Quantum one of my co-founders tensorflow Quantum one of my co-founders tensorflow Quantum one of my co-founders of tensorflow quantum is the CTO Trevor of tensorflow quantum is the CTO Trevor of tensorflow quantum is the CTO Trevor mccort um we have some of the best mccort um we have some of the best mccort um we have some of the best quantum computer Architects those that quantum computer Architects those that quantum computer Architects those that have designed ibms and aws's systems have designed ibms and aws's systems have designed ibms and aws's systems they've left Quantum Computing to help they've left Quantum Computing to help they've left Quantum Computing to help us build uh what we call actually a us build uh what we call actually a us build uh what we call actually a thermodynamic computer a thermodynamic thermodynamic computer a thermodynamic thermodynamic computer a thermodynamic computer well actually it's thinking on computer well actually it's thinking on computer well actually it's thinking on tensor floor quantum what lessons have tensor floor quantum what lessons have tensor floor quantum what lessons have you learned from tensorflow Quantum you learned from tensorflow Quantum you learned from tensorflow Quantum maybe you can speak to like maybe you can speak to like maybe you can speak to like what what it takes to create essentially what what it takes to create essentially what what it takes to create essentially what like a software API to a quantum what like a software API to a quantum what like a software API to a quantum computer right I mean that was that was computer right I mean that was that was computer right I mean that was that was a challenge uh to build uh to invent to a challenge uh to build uh to invent to a challenge uh to build uh to invent to build and then to get to run on the real

build and then to get to run on the real build and then to get to run on the real devices can you actually speak to what devices can you actually speak to what devices can you actually speak to what it is yeah so tensorflow Quantum was an it is yeah so tensorflow Quantum was an it is yeah so tensorflow Quantum was an attempt at well I mean I guess we attempt at well I mean I guess we attempt at well I mean I guess we succeeded at combining deep learning or succeeded at combining deep learning or succeeded at combining deep learning or differentiable classical programming differentiable classical programming differentiable classical programming with uh Quantum Computing and turn with uh Quantum Computing and turn with uh Quantum Computing and turn Quantum Computing into uh or have types Quantum Computing into uh or have types Quantum Computing into uh or have types of programs that are differentiable in of programs that are differentiable in of programs that are differentiable in Quantum Computing and you know Andre Quantum Computing and you know Andre Quantum Computing and you know Andre Andre carpat um calls differentiable Andre carpat um calls differentiable Andre carpat um calls differentiable programming software 2.0 right it's like programming software 2.0 right it's like programming software 2.0 right it's like gradi and descent is a better programmer gradi and descent is a better programmer gradi and descent is a better programmer than you and the idea was that in the than you and the idea was that in the than you and the idea was that in the early days of Quantum Computing you can early days of Quantum Computing you can early days of Quantum Computing you can only run short Quantum programs and so only run short Quantum programs and so only run short Quantum programs and so which Quantum programs should you run which Quantum programs should you run which Quantum programs should you run well just let gradient descend find well just let gradient descend find well just let gradient descend find those programs instead and so we built those programs instead and so we built those programs instead and so we built sort of the first sort of the first sort of the first infrastructure uh to not only run infrastructure uh to not only run infrastructure uh to not only run differentiable Quantum programs but differentiable Quantum programs but differentiable Quantum programs but combine them as part of broader deep combine them as part of broader deep combine them as part of broader deep learning uh graphs uh learning uh graphs uh learning uh graphs uh incorporating deep neural networks you incorporating deep neural networks you incorporating deep neural networks you know the ones you know and love with know the ones you know and love with know the ones you know and love with what are called called Quantum neural what are called called Quantum neural what are called called Quantum neural networks um and uh ultimately it was a networks um and uh ultimately it was a networks um and uh ultimately it was a very cross-disciplinary effort we had to very cross-disciplinary effort we had to very cross-disciplinary effort we had to invent all sorts of ways to invent all sorts of ways to invent all sorts of ways to differentiate to back propagate uh differentiate to back propagate uh differentiate to back propagate uh through the graph the hybrid graph um through the graph the hybrid graph um through the graph the hybrid graph um but ultimately it taught me that you the but ultimately it taught me that you the but ultimately it taught me that you the way to program matter and to program

way to program matter and to program way to program matter and to program physics is by differentiating through physics is by differentiating through physics is by differentiating through control parameters if you have control parameters if you have control parameters if you have parameters that affects the physics of parameters that affects the physics of parameters that affects the physics of the system you you can and you can the system you you can and you can the system you you can and you can evaluate some loss function you can evaluate some loss function you can evaluate some loss function you can optimize the system to accomplish a task optimize the system to accomplish a task optimize the system to accomplish a task whatever that task may be and that's a whatever that task may be and that's a whatever that task may be and that's a very sort of very sort of very sort of universal meta framework for how to universal meta framework for how to universal meta framework for how to program physics based computers to try program physics based computers to try program physics based computers to try to parameterize everything make those to parameterize everything make those to parameterize everything make those parameters differentiable MH and then parameters differentiable MH and then parameters differentiable MH and then optimize yes okay so is there some more optimize yes okay so is there some more optimize yes okay so is there some more practical engineering lessons from practical engineering lessons from practical engineering lessons from tensorflow tensorflow tensorflow Quantum just organizationally too like Quantum just organizationally too like Quantum just organizationally too like the humans involved and how to get to a the humans involved and how to get to a the humans involved and how to get to a product how to uh create good product how to uh create good product how to uh create good documentation how to have I don't know documentation how to have I don't know documentation how to have I don't know all these little subtle things you may all these little subtle things you may all these little subtle things you may people might not think about I think people might not think about I think people might not think about I think like working across disciplinary like working across disciplinary like working across disciplinary boundaries is always a challenge and you boundaries is always a challenge and you boundaries is always a challenge and you have to be extremely patient and have to be extremely patient and have to be extremely patient and teaching one another right I learned a teaching one another right I learned a teaching one another right I learned a lot of software engineering through the lot of software engineering through the lot of software engineering through the process um uh my colleagues learned a process um uh my colleagues learned a process um uh my colleagues learned a lot of quantum physics and some learned lot of quantum physics and some learned lot of quantum physics and some learned machine learning through the process of machine learning through the process of machine learning through the process of of building this uh system and I think of building this uh system and I think of building this uh system and I think if you get some smart people that are if you get some smart people that are if you get some smart people that are passionate and trust each other in a passionate and trust each other in a passionate and trust each other in a room and you have a small team and you room and you have a small team and you room and you have a small team and you teach each other your Specialties teach each other your Specialties teach each other your Specialties suddenly you're kind of forming this

suddenly you're kind of forming this suddenly you're kind of forming this sort of model soup of expertise and sort of model soup of expertise and sort of model soup of expertise and something special comes out of that something special comes out of that something special comes out of that right it's like combining genes but for right it's like combining genes but for right it's like combining genes but for your knowledge bases and uh sometimes your knowledge bases and uh sometimes your knowledge bases and uh sometimes special products come out of that and so special products come out of that and so special products come out of that and so I I think like even though it's very I I think like even though it's very I I think like even though it's very high friction initially to work in an high friction initially to work in an high friction initially to work in an interdisciplinary team I think the interdisciplinary team I think the interdisciplinary team I think the product at the end of the day is is is product at the end of the day is is is product at the end of the day is is is worth it and so learned a lot trying to worth it and so learned a lot trying to worth it and so learned a lot trying to bridge the gap there and I mean it's bridge the gap there and I mean it's bridge the gap there and I mean it's still a challenge to this day you know still a challenge to this day you know still a challenge to this day you know we hire folks that are have an AI we hire folks that are have an AI we hire folks that are have an AI background folks folks that have a pure background folks folks that have a pure background folks folks that have a pure physics background and somehow we we physics background and somehow we we physics background and somehow we we have to make them talk to one another have to make them talk to one another have to make them talk to one another right is there magic is there some right is there magic is there some right is there magic is there some science and art to the hiring process to science and art to the hiring process to science and art to the hiring process to building a team that uh can create Magic building a team that uh can create Magic building a team that uh can create Magic together yeah it's it's really hard to together yeah it's it's really hard to together yeah it's it's really hard to pinpoint that that genen sequa right the pinpoint that that genen sequa right the pinpoint that that genen sequa right the I didn't know you speak French it's very I didn't know you speak French it's very I didn't know you speak French it's very nice um yeah I'm I'm I'm actually French nice um yeah I'm I'm I'm actually French nice um yeah I'm I'm I'm actually French Canadian so oh you are legitimately Canadian so oh you are legitimately Canadian so oh you are legitimately French can I am I thought you were just French can I am I thought you were just French can I am I thought you were just doing that for the for the for the cred doing that for the for the for the cred doing that for the for the for the cred no no no I'm truly French Canadian from no no no I'm truly French Canadian from no no no I'm truly French Canadian from from Montreal um um but yeah essentially from Montreal um um but yeah essentially from Montreal um um but yeah essentially we look for people with very high fluid we look for people with very high fluid we look for people with very high fluid intelligence that aren't over intelligence that aren't over intelligence that aren't over specialized because they're going to specialized because they're going to specialized because they're going to have to get out of their comfort zone have to get out of their comfort zone have to get out of their comfort zone they're going to have to incorporate they're going to have to incorporate they're going to have to incorporate Concepts that they've never seen before Concepts that they've never seen before Concepts that they've never seen before and very quickly get comfortable with and very quickly get comfortable with and very quickly get comfortable with them right or or learn to work in a team them right or or learn to work in a team them right or or learn to work in a team and so that's sort of uh what we look

and so that's sort of uh what we look and so that's sort of uh what we look for when we hire we can't hire you know for when we hire we can't hire you know for when we hire we can't hire you know people that are just like you know people that are just like you know people that are just like you know optimizing this sub system for the past optimizing this sub system for the past optimizing this sub system for the past three or four years we need like really three or four years we need like really three or four years we need like really General sort of broader uh intelligence General sort of broader uh intelligence General sort of broader uh intelligence and Specialty uh and people that are and Specialty uh and people that are and Specialty uh and people that are that are open-minded really because if that are open-minded really because if that are open-minded really because if you're pioneering a new approach from you're pioneering a new approach from you're pioneering a new approach from scratch there there is no textbook scratch there there is no textbook scratch there there is no textbook there's no reference it's just us and there's no reference it's just us and there's no reference it's just us and and people that are hungry to learn so and people that are hungry to learn so and people that are hungry to learn so we have to teach each other we have to we have to teach each other we have to we have to teach each other we have to learn the literature we have to share learn the literature we have to share learn the literature we have to share knowledge bases collaborate in order to knowledge bases collaborate in order to knowledge bases collaborate in order to push the boundary of knowledge further push the boundary of knowledge further push the boundary of knowledge further together right uh and so people that are together right uh and so people that are together right uh and so people that are used to just getting prescribed uh what used to just getting prescribed uh what used to just getting prescribed uh what to do uh you know at this stage when to do uh you know at this stage when to do uh you know at this stage when you're at the pioneering stage that's you're at the pioneering stage that's you're at the pioneering stage that's not necessarily uh who you want to hire not necessarily uh who you want to hire not necessarily uh who you want to hire you so you mentioned with ext Tropic you so you mentioned with ext Tropic you so you mentioned with ext Tropic you're trying to build the physical you're trying to build the physical you're trying to build the physical substrate for generative AI mhm what's substrate for generative AI mhm what's substrate for generative AI mhm what's the difference between that and the AGI the difference between that and the AGI the difference between that and the AGI AI itself so is it possible that in the AI itself so is it possible that in the AI itself so is it possible that in the halls of your company a will be created halls of your company a will be created halls of your company a will be created or will AGI just be using this as a or will AGI just be using this as a or will AGI just be using this as a substrate I think um our goal is to both substrate I think um our goal is to both substrate I think um our goal is to both run human like AI or anthropomorphic AI run human like AI or anthropomorphic AI run human like AI or anthropomorphic AI sorry for use of the term AGI I know sorry for use of the term AGI I know sorry for use of the term AGI I know it's triggering for you we think that it's triggering for you we think that it's triggering for you we think that the future is actually physics-based the future is actually physics-based the future is actually physics-based AI uh combined with AI uh combined with AI uh combined with anthropomorphic AI so you can imagine I

anthropomorphic AI so you can imagine I anthropomorphic AI so you can imagine I have a sort of world modeling engine have a sort of world modeling engine have a sort of world modeling engine through physics based AI physics based through physics based AI physics based through physics based AI physics based di is better at representing the world di is better at representing the world di is better at representing the world at all scales because it can be quantum at all scales because it can be quantum at all scales because it can be quantum mechanical thermodynamic mechanical thermodynamic mechanical thermodynamic deterministic hybrid representations of deterministic hybrid representations of deterministic hybrid representations of the world just like our world at the world just like our world at the world just like our world at different scales has different regimes different scales has different regimes different scales has different regimes of physics if you inspire yourself from of physics if you inspire yourself from of physics if you inspire yourself from that in the ways you learn that in the ways you learn that in the ways you learn representations of nature you can have representations of nature you can have representations of nature you can have much more accurate representations of much more accurate representations of much more accurate representations of nature so you can have very accurate nature so you can have very accurate nature so you can have very accurate World models at all scales MH right and World models at all scales MH right and World models at all scales MH right and so you have the world modeling engine so you have the world modeling engine so you have the world modeling engine and then you have the sort of and then you have the sort of and then you have the sort of anthropomorphic AI that is humanlike so anthropomorphic AI that is humanlike so anthropomorphic AI that is humanlike so you can have the you can have the you can have the science the the the playground to test science the the the playground to test science the the the playground to test your ideas and you can have the your ideas and you can have the your ideas and you can have the synthetic scientist and to us that joint synthetic scientist and to us that joint synthetic scientist and to us that joint system of a physics based Ai and an system of a physics based Ai and an system of a physics based Ai and an anthropomorphic AI is the closest thing anthropomorphic AI is the closest thing anthropomorphic AI is the closest thing to a fully General artificially to a fully General artificially to a fully General artificially intelligent system so you you can get intelligent system so you you can get intelligent system so you you can get closer to Truth by closer to Truth by closer to Truth by grounding the the AI to physics right grounding the the AI to physics right grounding the the AI to physics right but you can also still have a but you can also still have a but you can also still have a anthropomorphic interface to us humans anthropomorphic interface to us humans anthropomorphic interface to us humans that like to talk to other humans or that like to talk to other humans or that like to talk to other humans or humanlike systems so on that topic what humanlike systems so on that topic what humanlike systems so on that topic what do you I suppose that is one of the big do you I suppose that is one of the big do you I suppose that is one of the big limitations of current large language limitations of current large language limitations of current large language models to you is that they're not models to you is that they're not models to you is that they're not they're good they're good they're good bullshitters they're not really grounded bullshitters they're not really grounded bullshitters they're not really grounded to truth necessarily MH is that would to truth necessarily MH is that would to truth necessarily MH is that would that be fair to say yeah no I I you that be fair to say yeah no I I you that be fair to say yeah no I I you wouldn't you know try to extrapolate the

wouldn't you know try to extrapolate the wouldn't you know try to extrapolate the stock market with an LM trained on text stock market with an LM trained on text stock market with an LM trained on text from the internet right it's not going from the internet right it's not going from the internet right it's not going to be a very accurate model it's not to be a very accurate model it's not to be a very accurate model it's not going to model its priors or its going to model its priors or its going to model its priors or its uncertainties about the world very uncertainties about the world very uncertainties about the world very accurately right so you need you need a accurately right so you need you need a accurately right so you need you need a different type of AI to complement sort different type of AI to complement sort different type of AI to complement sort of this this text extrapolation AI yeah of this this text extrapolation AI yeah of this this text extrapolation AI yeah uh you mentioned Singularity earlier uh you mentioned Singularity earlier uh you mentioned Singularity earlier what how far away are we from a what how far away are we from a what how far away are we from a singularity I don't know if I believe in singularity I don't know if I believe in singularity I don't know if I believe in a finite time Singularity as a single a finite time Singularity as a single a finite time Singularity as a single point in time I think it's going to be point in time I think it's going to be point in time I think it's going to be asymptotic and and sort of a diagonal asymptotic and and sort of a diagonal asymptotic and and sort of a diagonal sort of ASM toote like you know we we sort of ASM toote like you know we we sort of ASM toote like you know we we have the L cone we have the limits of have the L cone we have the limits of have the L cone we have the limits of physics restricting our ability to grow physics restricting our ability to grow physics restricting our ability to grow so obviously can't fully diverge on a on so obviously can't fully diverge on a on so obviously can't fully diverge on a on a finite time um I I I think my priors a finite time um I I I think my priors a finite time um I I I think my priors are that you know I think a lot of a lot are that you know I think a lot of a lot are that you know I think a lot of a lot of uh people on the other side of the of uh people on the other side of the of uh people on the other side of the aisle um think that once we reach human aisle um think that once we reach human aisle um think that once we reach human level AI there's going to be an level AI there's going to be an level AI there's going to be an inflection point and a sudden like like inflection point and a sudden like like inflection point and a sudden like like f like suddenly AI is going to Gro how f like suddenly AI is going to Gro how f like suddenly AI is going to Gro how to you know manipulate matter at the to you know manipulate matter at the to you know manipulate matter at the Nano scale and assemble Nanobots and Nano scale and assemble Nanobots and Nano scale and assemble Nanobots and having uh worked you know for nearly a having uh worked you know for nearly a having uh worked you know for nearly a decade in applying AI to engineer matter decade in applying AI to engineer matter decade in applying AI to engineer matter it's much harder than they think and in it's much harder than they think and in it's much harder than they think and in reality you need a lot of samples from reality you need a lot of samples from reality you need a lot of samples from either a simulation of nature that's either a simulation of nature that's either a simulation of nature that's very accurate and costly or nature very accurate and costly or nature very accurate and costly or nature itself and that keeps your ability to itself and that keeps your ability to itself and that keeps your ability to control the world around us in check

control the world around us in check control the world around us in check there's a sort of minimal there's a sort of minimal there's a sort of minimal uh cost computationally and uh cost computationally and uh cost computationally and thermodynamically to acquiring thermodynamically to acquiring thermodynamically to acquiring information about the world in order to information about the world in order to information about the world in order to be able to predict and control it uh and be able to predict and control it uh and be able to predict and control it uh and that keeps things in check it's funny that keeps things in check it's funny that keeps things in check it's funny you mentioned the other side of the you mentioned the other side of the you mentioned the other side of the aisle so in the poll I posted about P aisle so in the poll I posted about P aisle so in the poll I posted about P Doom yesterday what's the probability of Doom yesterday what's the probability of Doom yesterday what's the probability of Doom there seems to be a nice like Doom there seems to be a nice like Doom there seems to be a nice like division between people think it's very division between people think it's very division between people think it's very likely and very likely and very likely and very unlikely I wonder if in the future unlikely I wonder if in the future unlikely I wonder if in the future they'll be the actual Republicans versus they'll be the actual Republicans versus they'll be the actual Republicans versus Democrats division blue versus red is Democrats division blue versus red is Democrats division blue versus red is the AI doomers versus the eakers yak the AI doomers versus the eakers yak the AI doomers versus the eakers yak yeah so this movement you know is not yeah so this movement you know is not yeah so this movement you know is not right-wing or leftwing fundamentally right-wing or leftwing fundamentally right-wing or leftwing fundamentally it's more like up versus down in terms it's more like up versus down in terms it's more like up versus down in terms of the up civilization right all right of the up civilization right all right of the up civilization right all right um but it seems to be like there is a um but it seems to be like there is a um but it seems to be like there is a sort of case of alignment of the sort of case of alignment of the sort of case of alignment of the existing political parties where those existing political parties where those existing political parties where those that are for more centralization of that are for more centralization of that are for more centralization of power control and more power control and more power control and more regulations uh are Alig with sort of regulations uh are Alig with sort of regulations uh are Alig with sort of aligning themselves with the doomers aligning themselves with the doomers aligning themselves with the doomers because that sort of uh instilling fear because that sort of uh instilling fear because that sort of uh instilling fear in people is a great way to for them to in people is a great way to for them to in people is a great way to for them to give up more control and give the give up more control and give the give up more control and give the government more power but fundamentally government more power but fundamentally government more power but fundamentally we're not left versus right I think we're not left versus right I think we're not left versus right I think there's we've done polls of um people's there's we've done polls of um people's there's we've done polls of um people's alignment with an EAC I think it's alignment with an EAC I think it's alignment with an EAC I think it's pretty balanced um so it's a it's a new pretty balanced um so it's a it's a new pretty balanced um so it's a it's a new fundamental issue of our time it's not

fundamental issue of our time it's not fundamental issue of our time it's not just centralizing ation versus just centralizing ation versus just centralizing ation versus decentralization it's kind of do we go decentralization it's kind of do we go decentralization it's kind of do we go it's like Tech progressivism versus it's like Tech progressivism versus it's like Tech progressivism versus techn conservativism techn conservativism techn conservativism right so iak is as a movement is often right so iak is as a movement is often right so iak is as a movement is often formulated in contrast to EA effective formulated in contrast to EA effective formulated in contrast to EA effective altruism altruism altruism MH what do you think are the pros and MH what do you think are the pros and MH what do you think are the pros and cons of effective altruism what's cons of effective altruism what's cons of effective altruism what's interesting insightful to you about them interesting insightful to you about them interesting insightful to you about them and what uh is and what uh is and what uh is negative right I think I think like negative right I think I think like negative right I think I think like people trying to do good from first people trying to do good from first people trying to do good from first principles is is is good we should principles is is is good we should principles is is is good we should actually say and sorry to interrupt we actually say and sorry to interrupt we actually say and sorry to interrupt we should probably say that and you can should probably say that and you can should probably say that and you can correct me if I'm wrong but effective correct me if I'm wrong but effective correct me if I'm wrong but effective altruism altruism altruism is is a kind of movement that's trying is is a kind of movement that's trying is is a kind of movement that's trying to do good optimally where good is to do good optimally where good is to do good optimally where good is probably measured something like the probably measured something like the probably measured something like the amount of suffering in the world you amount of suffering in the world you amount of suffering in the world you want to minimize want to minimize want to minimize it and uh there's ways that that can go it and uh there's ways that that can go it and uh there's ways that that can go wrong as any optimization can and so wrong as any optimization can and so wrong as any optimization can and so it's interesting to it's interesting to it's interesting to explore explore explore uh like how things can go wrong we're uh like how things can go wrong we're uh like how things can go wrong we're we're both trying to do good to some we're both trying to do good to some we're both trying to do good to some extent and we're we're both trying we're extent and we're we're both trying we're extent and we're we're both trying we're we're arguing for which loss function we we're arguing for which loss function we we're arguing for which loss function we should use right yes their loss function should use right yes their loss function should use right yes their loss function is sort of Hons right uh units of is sort of Hons right uh units of is sort of Hons right uh units of Hedonism like how how like how good do Hedonism like how how like how good do Hedonism like how how like how good do you feel and for how much time right and you feel and for how much time right and you feel and for how much time right and so suffering would be negative heatons

so suffering would be negative heatons so suffering would be negative heatons um and they're trying to minimize that um and they're trying to minimize that um and they're trying to minimize that but to us that seems like uh that loss but to us that seems like uh that loss but to us that seems like uh that loss function has sort of spirous Minima function has sort of spirous Minima function has sort of spirous Minima right you can um you know start right you can um you know start right you can um you know start minimizing shrimp farm pain right which minimizing shrimp farm pain right which minimizing shrimp farm pain right which seems not that productive to me um uh or seems not that productive to me um uh or seems not that productive to me um uh or you can end up with wireheading where you can end up with wireheading where you can end up with wireheading where you just you know either install a you just you know either install a you just you know either install a neural link or you scroll Tik Tok neural link or you scroll Tik Tok neural link or you scroll Tik Tok forever and you feel good on the forever and you feel good on the forever and you feel good on the shortterm time scale because your shortterm time scale because your shortterm time scale because your neurochemistry but on long-term time neurochemistry but on long-term time neurochemistry but on long-term time scale it causes Decay and and death scale it causes Decay and and death scale it causes Decay and and death right uh because you're not being right uh because you're not being right uh because you're not being productive whereas sort of eak measuring productive whereas sort of eak measuring productive whereas sort of eak measuring progress of progress of progress of civilization uh not in terms of a civilization uh not in terms of a civilization uh not in terms of a subjective loss function like H subjective loss function like H subjective loss function like H Hedonism um um but rather an objective Hedonism um um but rather an objective Hedonism um um but rather an objective measure a quantity that cannot be gained measure a quantity that cannot be gained measure a quantity that cannot be gained that is physical energy right it's very that is physical energy right it's very that is physical energy right it's very objective right and and and and there's objective right and and and and there's objective right and and and and there's not many ways to game it right if you if not many ways to game it right if you if not many ways to game it right if you if you did it in terms of like GDP or a you did it in terms of like GDP or a you did it in terms of like GDP or a currency that's pinned to a certain currency that's pinned to a certain currency that's pinned to a certain value that's moving right and so that's value that's moving right and so that's value that's moving right and so that's not a good way to measure our progress not a good way to measure our progress not a good way to measure our progress and so uh but the thing is we're both and so uh but the thing is we're both and so uh but the thing is we're both trying to make progress and ensure trying to make progress and ensure trying to make progress and ensure humanity flourishes and and gets to grow humanity flourishes and and gets to grow humanity flourishes and and gets to grow we just have different uh loss functions we just have different uh loss functions we just have different uh loss functions and different ways of going about uh and different ways of going about uh and different ways of going about uh doing it is there a degree maybe you can doing it is there a degree maybe you can doing it is there a degree maybe you can educate me correct me I I get a little educate me correct me I I get a little educate me correct me I I get a little bit skeptical when there's an equation

bit skeptical when there's an equation bit skeptical when there's an equation involved trying to reduce all of the involved trying to reduce all of the involved trying to reduce all of the human human human civilization Human Experience to an equation is there a degree that we equation is there a degree that we should be skeptical of the tyranny of an should be skeptical of the tyranny of an should be skeptical of the tyranny of an equation a of a loss function over which equation a of a loss function over which equation a of a loss function over which to optimize like having a kind of to optimize like having a kind of to optimize like having a kind of intellectual humility about optimizing intellectual humility about optimizing intellectual humility about optimizing over loss over loss over loss functions yeah so so so this particular functions yeah so so so this particular functions yeah so so so this particular loss function it's not it's not stiff loss function it's not it's not stiff loss function it's not it's not stiff it's it's kind of an average of averages it's it's kind of an average of averages it's it's kind of an average of averages right it's right it's right it's like distributions of states in the like distributions of states in the like distributions of states in the future are going to follow a certain future are going to follow a certain future are going to follow a certain distribution so it's not um distribution so it's not um distribution so it's not um deterministic it's not like we're not on deterministic it's not like we're not on deterministic it's not like we're not on like stiff rails right it's just a like stiff rails right it's just a like stiff rails right it's just a statistical uh statement uh about the statistical uh statement uh about the statistical uh statement uh about the future but at the end of the day you future but at the end of the day you future but at the end of the day you know you can believe in gravity or not know you can believe in gravity or not know you can believe in gravity or not you know but it's not necessarily an you know but it's not necessarily an you know but it's not necessarily an option to obey it right uh and some some option to obey it right uh and some some option to obey it right uh and some some people try to test that that and that people try to test that that and that people try to test that that and that goes not so well so similarly you know I goes not so well so similarly you know I goes not so well so similarly you know I think I think think I think think I think thermodynamics is there whether we like thermodynamics is there whether we like thermodynamics is there whether we like it or not and we're just trying to point it or not and we're just trying to point it or not and we're just trying to point out uh what is and and try to orient out uh what is and and try to orient out uh what is and and try to orient ourselves and and and chart a path ourselves and and and chart a path ourselves and and and chart a path forward given given this fundamental forward given given this fundamental forward given given this fundamental truth but there's still some uncertainty truth but there's still some uncertainty truth but there's still some uncertainty there's still a lack of information there's still a lack of information there's still a lack of information humans tend to fill the gap of the lack humans tend to fill the gap of the lack humans tend to fill the gap of the lack of information with narratives and so of information with narratives and so of information with narratives and so how they how they how they interpret interpret interpret you know even physics is up to you know even physics is up to you know even physics is up to interpretation when there's uncertainty

interpretation when there's uncertainty interpretation when there's uncertainty involved um and humans T to use that MH involved um and humans T to use that MH involved um and humans T to use that MH to further their own means so it's to further their own means so it's to further their own means so it's always whenever there's an equation it always whenever there's an equation it always whenever there's an equation it just seems like until we have really just seems like until we have really just seems like until we have really perfect understanding of the perfect understanding of the perfect understanding of the universe humans will do what humans do universe humans will do what humans do universe humans will do what humans do and they try to and they try to and they try to uh use The Narrative of doing uh use The Narrative of doing uh use The Narrative of doing good MH good MH good MH to fool the populace into doing bad y I to fool the populace into doing bad y I to fool the populace into doing bad y I just I guess that this is something that just I guess that this is something that just I guess that this is something that should be skeptical about in all should be skeptical about in all should be skeptical about in all movements that's movements that's movements that's right so we invite skepticism right do right so we invite skepticism right do right so we invite skepticism right do you have an understanding of what might you have an understanding of what might you have an understanding of what might uh to a degree that went wrong what do uh to a degree that went wrong what do uh to a degree that went wrong what do you think may have gone wrong with you think may have gone wrong with you think may have gone wrong with effective effective effective altruism that might also go wrong with altruism that might also go wrong with altruism that might also go wrong with effective effective effective accelerationism yeah I mean I think you accelerationism yeah I mean I think you accelerationism yeah I mean I think you know um I think it provided initially a know um I think it provided initially a know um I think it provided initially a sense of community for you know sense of community for you know sense of community for you know engineers and intellectuals and engineers and intellectuals and engineers and intellectuals and rationalists in the early days and um rationalists in the early days and um rationalists in the early days and um seems like the community was very seems like the community was very seems like the community was very healthy but then you know they formed healthy but then you know they formed healthy but then you know they formed all sorts of organizations and started all sorts of organizations and started all sorts of organizations and started routing capital and having actual power routing capital and having actual power routing capital and having actual power right they have real power they right they have real power they right they have real power they influence the government the influence influence the government the influence influence the government the influence most AI orgs now I mean they're most AI orgs now I mean they're most AI orgs now I mean they're literally controlling the board of openi literally controlling the board of openi literally controlling the board of openi right and and look over to anthropic I right and and look over to anthropic I right and and look over to anthropic I think they all have some control over think they all have some control over think they all have some control over that too and so I think you know the

that too and so I think you know the that too and so I think you know the Assumption of eak is more like Assumption of eak is more like Assumption of eak is more like capitalism is that every agent organism capitalism is that every agent organism capitalism is that every agent organism and metaorganism is going to act it own and metaorganism is going to act it own and metaorganism is going to act it own in its own interest and we should in its own interest and we should in its own interest and we should maintain sort of adversarial equilibrium maintain sort of adversarial equilibrium maintain sort of adversarial equilibrium or or adversarial competition to keep or or adversarial competition to keep or or adversarial competition to keep each other in check at all times at all each other in check at all times at all each other in check at all times at all scales um I think that yeah ultimately scales um I think that yeah ultimately scales um I think that yeah ultimately it was the perfect cover to acquire it was the perfect cover to acquire it was the perfect cover to acquire tons of power and capital and tons of power and capital and tons of power and capital and unfortunately sometimes that uh that unfortunately sometimes that uh that unfortunately sometimes that uh that that corrupts people over time what does that corrupts people over time what does that corrupts people over time what does a perfectly productive day since a perfectly productive day since a perfectly productive day since building is important what is a building is important what is a building is important what is a perfectly productive day in the life of perfectly productive day in the life of perfectly productive day in the life of Gom Verdon look like how how much Gom Verdon look like how how much Gom Verdon look like how how much caffeine do you consume like what what's caffeine do you consume like what what's caffeine do you consume like what what's the perfect the perfect the perfect day okay uh so I have a particular day okay uh so I have a particular day okay uh so I have a particular regimen um I would say my my favorite regimen um I would say my my favorite regimen um I would say my my favorite days are days are days are 12:00 p.m. to 4:00 a.m. um and I would 12:00 p.m. to 4:00 a.m. um and I would 12:00 p.m. to 4:00 a.m. um and I would have meetings in the early afternoon have meetings in the early afternoon have meetings in the early afternoon usually external meetings some internal usually external meetings some internal usually external meetings some internal meetings because I'm I'm CEO I have to meetings because I'm I'm CEO I have to meetings because I'm I'm CEO I have to interface with the outside world whether interface with the outside world whether interface with the outside world whether it's customers or investors or we it's customers or investors or we it's customers or investors or we interviewing potential interviewing potential interviewing potential candidates um and usually I'll have uh candidates um and usually I'll have uh candidates um and usually I'll have uh ketones uh exogenous ketones um so are ketones uh exogenous ketones um so are ketones uh exogenous ketones um so are you on a keto on a keto diet is just you on a keto on a keto diet is just you on a keto on a keto diet is just I've done keto before for uh football I've done keto before for uh football I've done keto before for uh football and whatnot um but I I I like to uh have

and whatnot um but I I I like to uh have and whatnot um but I I I like to uh have a meal after sort of part of my day is a meal after sort of part of my day is a meal after sort of part of my day is is done and so I can just have extreme is done and so I can just have extreme is done and so I can just have extreme Focus you do the social interactions Focus you do the social interactions Focus you do the social interactions earlier in the day right without food earlier in the day right without food earlier in the day right without food front load them yeah yeah like right now front load them yeah yeah like right now front load them yeah yeah like right now I'm on ketones and and Red Bull yeah uh I'm on ketones and and Red Bull yeah uh I'm on ketones and and Red Bull yeah uh and it just gives you a Clarity of and it just gives you a Clarity of and it just gives you a Clarity of thought that is that is really Next thought that is that is really Next thought that is that is really Next Level cuz then when you eat you're Level cuz then when you eat you're Level cuz then when you eat you're actually allocating some of your energy actually allocating some of your energy actually allocating some of your energy that could be going to neural energy to that could be going to neural energy to that could be going to neural energy to to your digestion after I eat maybe I to your digestion after I eat maybe I to your digestion after I eat maybe I take a break an hour or so an hour and a take a break an hour or so an hour and a take a break an hour or so an hour and a half and then uh usually it's like half and then uh usually it's like half and then uh usually it's like ideally one meal a day like steak and ideally one meal a day like steak and ideally one meal a day like steak and eggs and vegetables uh animal based eggs and vegetables uh animal based eggs and vegetables uh animal based primarily so fruit and and meat and then primarily so fruit and and meat and then primarily so fruit and and meat and then uh and then I do a second wind usually uh and then I do a second wind usually uh and then I do a second wind usually that's deep work right uh because I'm that's deep work right uh because I'm that's deep work right uh because I'm you know I am a CEO but I'm still you know I am a CEO but I'm still you know I am a CEO but I'm still technical I'm contributing to most technical I'm contributing to most technical I'm contributing to most patents and um there I'll just stay up patents and um there I'll just stay up patents and um there I'll just stay up late into the night and and work with late into the night and and work with late into the night and and work with Engineers on very technical problems so Engineers on very technical problems so Engineers on very technical problems so it's like the the 900 p.m. to 4:00 a.m.

it's like the the 900 p.m. to 4:00 a.m. it's like the the 900 p.m. to 4:00 a.m. whatever the that range of time yeah whatever the that range of time yeah whatever the that range of time yeah yeah that's the perfect time the the yeah that's the perfect time the the yeah that's the perfect time the the emails that the things that are on fire emails that the things that are on fire emails that the things that are on fire stop trickling in you can you can focus stop trickling in you can you can focus stop trickling in you can you can focus and then you have your second wind um and then you have your second wind um and then you have your second wind um and uh you know I I think Demis aabis and uh you know I I think Demis aabis and uh you know I I think Demis aabis has a similar work data to some extent has a similar work data to some extent has a similar work data to some extent um so I think that that's definitely um so I think that that's definitely um so I think that that's definitely inspired my workday um but yeah that I inspired my workday um but yeah that I inspired my workday um but yeah that I started this work day when I was at at started this work day when I was at at started this work day when I was at at Google and had to manage a bit of the Google and had to manage a bit of the Google and had to manage a bit of the product during the day and have meetings product during the day and have meetings product during the day and have meetings and then and then do technical work at and then and then do technical work at and then and then do technical work at night exercise sleep those kinds of night exercise sleep those kinds of night exercise sleep those kinds of things yeah said football used to play things yeah said football used to play things yeah said football used to play football yeah I used to play American football yeah I used to play American football yeah I used to play American football uh I've done all sorts of football uh I've done all sorts of football uh I've done all sorts of sports growing up and then I was into sports growing up and then I was into sports growing up and then I was into powerlifting for a while um so when I powerlifting for a while um so when I powerlifting for a while um so when I was a studying U mathematics in grad was a studying U mathematics in grad was a studying U mathematics in grad school I would just you know do math and school I would just you know do math and school I would just you know do math and lift take caffeine and that was my day lift take caffeine and that was my day lift take caffeine and that was my day it was very pure the the purest of Monk it was very pure the the purest of Monk it was very pure the the purest of Monk modes um but it's really interesting how modes um but it's really interesting how modes um but it's really interesting how in powerlifting you're trying to cause in powerlifting you're trying to cause in powerlifting you're trying to cause neural adaptation by having certain neural adaptation by having certain neural adaptation by having certain driving signals and you're trying to driving signals and you're trying to driving signals and you're trying to engineer neuroplasticity through all engineer neuroplasticity through all engineer neuroplasticity through all sorts of sorts of sorts of supplements um and you know you have all supplements um and you know you have all supplements um and you know you have all sorts of you know brain derived sorts of you know brain derived sorts of you know brain derived neurotrophic factors that get secreted neurotrophic factors that get secreted neurotrophic factors that get secreted when you when you lift so it's it's when you when you lift so it's it's when you when you lift so it's it's funny to me how I was trying to engineer funny to me how I was trying to engineer funny to me how I was trying to engineer uh um um neural adaptation in my uh uh um um neural adaptation in my uh uh um um neural adaptation in my uh nervous system more broadly not just my nervous system more broadly not just my nervous system more broadly not just my brain while learning mathematics uh I brain while learning mathematics uh I brain while learning mathematics uh I think you can learn much

think you can learn much think you can learn much faster uh if you really care if you faster uh if you really care if you faster uh if you really care if you convince yourself to care a lot about convince yourself to care a lot about convince yourself to care a lot about what you're learning and you have some what you're learning and you have some what you're learning and you have some sort of assistance let's say uh caffeine sort of assistance let's say uh caffeine sort of assistance let's say uh caffeine or some col energic supplement to or some col energic supplement to or some col energic supplement to increase increase increase neuroplasticity I should chat with neuroplasticity I should chat with neuroplasticity I should chat with Andrew huberman point he's the expert Andrew huberman point he's the expert Andrew huberman point he's the expert but uh uh yeah at least to me it's like but uh uh yeah at least to me it's like but uh uh yeah at least to me it's like you know you can try to input more you know you can try to input more you know you can try to input more tokens into your brain if you will and tokens into your brain if you will and tokens into your brain if you will and you can try to increase the learning you can try to increase the learning you can try to increase the learning rate so that you can learn much faster rate so that you can learn much faster rate so that you can learn much faster on a shorter time scale so I've learned on a shorter time scale so I've learned on a shorter time scale so I've learned a lot of things I followed my curiosity a lot of things I followed my curiosity a lot of things I followed my curiosity you're naturally if you're passionate you're naturally if you're passionate you're naturally if you're passionate about what you're doing you're going to about what you're doing you're going to about what you're doing you're going to learn faster you're going to become learn faster you're going to become learn faster you're going to become smarter smarter smarter faster um and if you follow your faster um and if you follow your faster um and if you follow your curiosity you're always going to be curiosity you're always going to be curiosity you're always going to be interested and so I advise people to interested and so I advise people to interested and so I advise people to follow their curiosity and don't respect follow their curiosity and don't respect follow their curiosity and don't respect the boundaries of certain fields or what the boundaries of certain fields or what the boundaries of certain fields or what you've been allocated in terms of Lane you've been allocated in terms of Lane you've been allocated in terms of Lane of what you're working on uh just go out of what you're working on uh just go out of what you're working on uh just go out and explore and follow your nose and try and explore and follow your nose and try and explore and follow your nose and try to uh acquire and compress as much to uh acquire and compress as much to uh acquire and compress as much information as you can into your brain information as you can into your brain information as you can into your brain anything that you find interesting and anything that you find interesting and anything that you find interesting and caring about a thing and like you said caring about a thing and like you said caring about a thing and like you said which is interesting it does it works which is interesting it does it works which is interesting it does it works for me really well it's like tricking for me really well it's like tricking for me really well it's like tricking yourself that you care about a thing yes yourself that you care about a thing yes yourself that you care about a thing yes and then you start to really care about and then you start to really care about and then you start to really care about it yep so it's funny the it yep so it's funny the it yep so it's funny the motivation is a really good Catalyst for motivation is a really good Catalyst for motivation is a really good Catalyst for learning right and so at least part part learning right and so at least part part learning right and so at least part part part of my character uh as bef Jos is part of my character uh as bef Jos is part of my character uh as bef Jos is kind of like yeah yeah the hype man yeah

kind of like yeah yeah the hype man yeah kind of like yeah yeah the hype man yeah just hype but I'm like hyping myself up just hype but I'm like hyping myself up just hype but I'm like hyping myself up but then I just tweet about it yeah and but then I just tweet about it yeah and but then I just tweet about it yeah and it's just when I'm trying to get really it's just when I'm trying to get really it's just when I'm trying to get really hyped up and in like an altered state of hyped up and in like an altered state of hyped up and in like an altered state of consciousness where I'm like Ultra consciousness where I'm like Ultra consciousness where I'm like Ultra focused in the flow wired trying to focused in the flow wired trying to focused in the flow wired trying to invent something that's never existed I invent something that's never existed I invent something that's never existed I need to get to like un real levels of need to get to like un real levels of need to get to like un real levels of like excitement but your brain has these like excitement but your brain has these like excitement but your brain has these levels of of cognition that you can levels of of cognition that you can levels of of cognition that you can unlock with like higher levels of unlock with like higher levels of unlock with like higher levels of adrenaline and and whatnot and I mean adrenaline and and whatnot and I mean adrenaline and and whatnot and I mean I've learned that in powerlifting that I've learned that in powerlifting that I've learned that in powerlifting that actually you can engineer a mental actually you can engineer a mental actually you can engineer a mental switch to like increase your strength switch to like increase your strength switch to like increase your strength right like if you can engineer a switch right like if you can engineer a switch right like if you can engineer a switch maybe you have a prompt like a certain maybe you have a prompt like a certain maybe you have a prompt like a certain song or some music where suddenly you're song or some music where suddenly you're song or some music where suddenly you're like fully primed then you're at Max like fully primed then you're at Max like fully primed then you're at Max maximum strength right and I've maximum strength right and I've maximum strength right and I've engineered that that switch through engineered that that switch through engineered that that switch through years of lifting if you're going to get years of lifting if you're going to get years of lifting if you're going to get under 500 lb and it could crush you if under 500 lb and it could crush you if under 500 lb and it could crush you if you don't have that switch to be wired you don't have that switch to be wired you don't have that switch to be wired in you might die so that that'll wake in you might die so that that'll wake in you might die so that that'll wake you right up and and that sort of skill you right up and and that sort of skill you right up and and that sort of skill I've carried over to like research when I've carried over to like research when I've carried over to like research when it's when it's go time when the stakes it's when it's go time when the stakes it's when it's go time when the stakes are high somehow I just reach another are high somehow I just reach another are high somehow I just reach another level of neural performance so be Jos is level of neural performance so be Jos is level of neural performance so be Jos is your sort of embodiment representation your sort of embodiment representation your sort of embodiment representation of your intellect ual of your intellect ual of your intellect ual Hulk productivity Hulk they just turn on Hulk productivity Hulk they just turn on Hulk productivity Hulk they just turn on what have you learned about the the what have you learned about the the what have you learned about the the nature of identity from having these two nature of identity from having these two nature of identity from having these two identities I think it's interesting for identities I think it's interesting for identities I think it's interesting for people to be able to put on those two people to be able to put on those two people to be able to put on those two hats so explicitly I think it was

hats so explicitly I think it was hats so explicitly I think it was interesting in the early days I think in interesting in the early days I think in interesting in the early days I think in the early days I thought it was truly the early days I thought it was truly the early days I thought it was truly compartmentalized like oh yeah this is a compartmentalized like oh yeah this is a compartmentalized like oh yeah this is a character you know I'm Gom Beth is just character you know I'm Gom Beth is just character you know I'm Gom Beth is just the the character I like I like take my the the character I like I like take my the the character I like I like take my thoughts and then I extrapolate them to thoughts and then I extrapolate them to thoughts and then I extrapolate them to a bit more extreme a bit more extreme a bit more extreme but you know over time it's kind of like but you know over time it's kind of like but you know over time it's kind of like both identities were starting to merge both identities were starting to merge both identities were starting to merge mentally and people are like no you are mentally and people are like no you are mentally and people are like no you are I met you you are Beth you are not just I met you you are Beth you are not just I met you you are Beth you are not just Gom MH and I was like wait am I and now Gom MH and I was like wait am I and now Gom MH and I was like wait am I and now it's like fully merged but it was it's like fully merged but it was it's like fully merged but it was already before the docs it was already already before the docs it was already already before the docs it was already starting mentally that you know I'm I am starting mentally that you know I'm I am starting mentally that you know I'm I am this character um it's part of me would this character um it's part of me would this character um it's part of me would you recommend people sort of have an Al you recommend people sort of have an Al you recommend people sort of have an Al absolutely like young people would you absolutely like young people would you absolutely like young people would you recommend them to explore different recommend them to explore different recommend them to explore different identities by having alts alt accounts identities by having alts alt accounts identities by having alts alt accounts it's it's fun it's like it's like it's it's fun it's like it's like it's it's fun it's like it's like writing an essay and taking a position writing an essay and taking a position writing an essay and taking a position right it's like you do this in debate right it's like you do this in debate right it's like you do this in debate it's it's like you can have experimental it's it's like you can have experimental it's it's like you can have experimental thoughts and and by having by the stakes thoughts and and by having by the stakes thoughts and and by having by the stakes being so low because you're an Anon being so low because you're an Anon being so low because you're an Anon account with I don't know 20 followers account with I don't know 20 followers account with I don't know 20 followers or something you can experiment with or something you can experiment with or something you can experiment with your thoughts and and and in a low your thoughts and and and in a low your thoughts and and and in a low stakes environment I feel like we've stakes environment I feel like we've stakes environment I feel like we've lost that in the era of everything being lost that in the era of everything being lost that in the era of everything being under your main name everything being under your main name everything being under your main name everything being attributable to you people just are attributable to you people just are attributable to you people just are afraid to speak explore ideas that afraid to speak explore ideas that afraid to speak explore ideas that aren't fully formed right and and I feel aren't fully formed right and and I feel aren't fully formed right and and I feel like we've lost something there so I I I like we've lost something there so I I I like we've lost something there so I I I hope you know platforms like X and hope you know platforms like X and hope you know platforms like X and others like really help support people others like really help support people others like really help support people trying to stay snonymous or Anonymous um trying to stay snonymous or Anonymous um trying to stay snonymous or Anonymous um because it's really important for for

because it's really important for for because it's really important for for people to share thoughts that aren't people to share thoughts that aren't people to share thoughts that aren't fully formed and converge onto maybe fully formed and converge onto maybe fully formed and converge onto maybe Hidden Truths that were hard to converge Hidden Truths that were hard to converge Hidden Truths that were hard to converge upon if it was just through open um upon if it was just through open um upon if it was just through open um conversation with real names yeah I conversation with real names yeah I conversation with real names yeah I really believe in like not radical but really believe in like not radical but really believe in like not radical but rigorous empathy it's like really rigorous empathy it's like really rigorous empathy it's like really considering what it's like to be a considering what it's like to be a considering what it's like to be a person of a certain Viewpoint and like person of a certain Viewpoint and like person of a certain Viewpoint and like taking that as a thought experiment taking that as a thought experiment taking that as a thought experiment farther and farther and farther and one farther and farther and farther and one farther and farther and farther and one way of doing that is an Al to way of doing that is an Al to way of doing that is an Al to account uh that's a that's a that's a account uh that's a that's a that's a account uh that's a that's a that's a fun interesting way to really explore fun interesting way to really explore fun interesting way to really explore what it's like to be a person that what it's like to be a person that what it's like to be a person that believes a set of beliefs and uh taking believes a set of beliefs and uh taking believes a set of beliefs and uh taking that across the span of several days that across the span of several days that across the span of several days weeks weeks weeks months of course there's always the months of course there's always the months of course there's always the danger of becoming that that's uh that's danger of becoming that that's uh that's danger of becoming that that's uh that's the N gaze long into the the N gaze long into the the N gaze long into the abyss the abyss gazes into you you have abyss the abyss gazes into you you have abyss the abyss gazes into you you have to be careful breaking bef yeah right to be careful breaking bef yeah right to be careful breaking bef yeah right breaking bef yeah you wake up with a breaking bef yeah you wake up with a breaking bef yeah you wake up with a shaved head one day just like who who am shaved head one day just like who who am shaved head one day just like who who am I what have I become uh so you've I what have I become uh so you've I what have I become uh so you've mentioned quite a bit of advice already mentioned quite a bit of advice already mentioned quite a bit of advice already but what advice would did you give to but what advice would did you give to but what advice would did you give to young young young people of how to in this interesting people of how to in this interesting people of how to in this interesting World we're in how to have a career and World we're in how to have a career and World we're in how to have a career and how to have a life they can be proud how to have a life they can be proud how to have a life they can be proud of I think to me the reason I went to of I think to me the reason I went to of I think to me the reason I went to theoretical physics was that I had to

theoretical physics was that I had to theoretical physics was that I had to learn the base of the stack that was learn the base of the stack that was learn the base of the stack that was going to stick around no matter yeah how going to stick around no matter yeah how going to stick around no matter yeah how the technology changes right um and to the technology changes right um and to the technology changes right um and to me that was the foundation upon which me that was the foundation upon which me that was the foundation upon which then I later built engineering uh skills then I later built engineering uh skills then I later built engineering uh skills and other skills and to me the laws of and other skills and to me the laws of and other skills and to me the laws of physics you know it may seem like the physics you know it may seem like the physics you know it may seem like the landscape right now is changing so fast landscape right now is changing so fast landscape right now is changing so fast it's disorienting but certain things it's disorienting but certain things it's disorienting but certain things like fundamental mathematics and physics like fundamental mathematics and physics like fundamental mathematics and physics aren't going to change and if you have aren't going to change and if you have aren't going to change and if you have that knowledge uh and and knowledge that knowledge uh and and knowledge that knowledge uh and and knowledge about complex systems and adaptive about complex systems and adaptive about complex systems and adaptive systems I think that's going to carry systems I think that's going to carry systems I think that's going to carry you very far and so uh not everybody has you very far and so uh not everybody has you very far and so uh not everybody has to study mathematics but I think it's to study mathematics but I think it's to study mathematics but I think it's really a huge cognitive unlock to to really a huge cognitive unlock to to really a huge cognitive unlock to to learn math and and some physics and learn math and and some physics and learn math and and some physics and Engineering get as close to the base of Engineering get as close to the base of Engineering get as close to the base of the stack as possible yeah that's right the stack as possible yeah that's right the stack as possible yeah that's right because because the base of the stack because because the base of the stack because because the base of the stack doesn't change everything else you know doesn't change everything else you know doesn't change everything else you know your knowledge might become not as your knowledge might become not as your knowledge might become not as relevant in a few years of course relevant in a few years of course relevant in a few years of course there's a sort of transfer learning you there's a sort of transfer learning you there's a sort of transfer learning you can do but then you have to always can do but then you have to always can do but then you have to always transfer learn constantly I guess the transfer learn constantly I guess the transfer learn constantly I guess the closer you are to the base of the stack closer you are to the base of the stack closer you are to the base of the stack the easier the the the the easier the the easier the the the the easier the the easier the the the the easier the transfer learning the shorter the jump transfer learning the shorter the jump transfer learning the shorter the jump right right and you'd be surprised like right right and you'd be surprised like right right and you'd be surprised like once you've learned Concepts and many once you've learned Concepts and many once you've learned Concepts and many physical scenarios how they can carry physical scenarios how they can carry physical scenarios how they can carry over to understanding other systems that over to understanding other systems that over to understanding other systems that are necessarily physics and I guess like are necessarily physics and I guess like are necessarily physics and I guess like the eak writings you know the the the eak writings you know the the the eak writings you know the the principles and tenet post uh that was principles and tenet post uh that was principles and tenet post uh that was based on physics that was kind of my based on physics that was kind of my based on physics that was kind of my experimentation with applying some of

experimentation with applying some of experimentation with applying some of the thinking from out of eum the thinking from out of eum the thinking from out of eum thermodynamics to understanding the thermodynamics to understanding the thermodynamics to understanding the world around us and it's led to to eak world around us and it's led to to eak world around us and it's led to to eak and this this movement if you look at and this this movement if you look at and this this movement if you look at your one Cog in the machine in the your one Cog in the machine in the your one Cog in the machine in the capitalist machine one capitalist machine one capitalist machine one human and if you look at yourself do you human and if you look at yourself do you human and if you look at yourself do you think mortality is a feature or a bug think mortality is a feature or a bug think mortality is a feature or a bug like would you want to be immortal no I like would you want to be immortal no I like would you want to be immortal no I I I think uh fundamentally in uh I I think uh fundamentally in uh I I think uh fundamentally in uh thermodynamic uh dissipative adaptation thermodynamic uh dissipative adaptation thermodynamic uh dissipative adaptation there's the word dissipation dissipation there's the word dissipation dissipation there's the word dissipation dissipation is important death is important right we is important death is important right we is important death is important right we we have a saying in physics physics we have a saying in physics physics we have a saying in physics physics progresses one funeral at a time yeah I progresses one funeral at a time yeah I progresses one funeral at a time yeah I think the same is true for capitalism think the same is true for capitalism think the same is true for capitalism companies uh Empires um uh people companies uh Empires um uh people companies uh Empires um uh people everything everything must die at some everything everything must die at some everything everything must die at some point I think that we should probably point I think that we should probably point I think that we should probably extend our lifespan because uh we need a extend our lifespan because uh we need a extend our lifespan because uh we need a longer period of of training because the longer period of of training because the longer period of of training because the world is more and more complex right we world is more and more complex right we world is more and more complex right we have more and more data to really be have more and more data to really be have more and more data to really be able to predict and understand the world able to predict and understand the world able to predict and understand the world and if we have a finite window of higher and if we have a finite window of higher and if we have a finite window of higher neuroplasticity neuroplasticity neuroplasticity then then we have sort of a hard cap in then then we have sort of a hard cap in then then we have sort of a hard cap in how much we can understand about our how much we can understand about our how much we can understand about our world so you know I think I am for death world so you know I think I am for death world so you know I think I am for death because again I think it's important you because again I think it's important you because again I think it's important you know if if you had like a king that know if if you had like a king that know if if you had like a king that would never die that would be a problem would never die that would be a problem would never die that would be a problem right like it would the system wouldn't right like it would the system wouldn't right like it would the system wouldn't be constantly adapting right uh you need

be constantly adapting right uh you need be constantly adapting right uh you need novelty you need youth you need novelty you need youth you need novelty you need youth you need disruption to make sure the system's disruption to make sure the system's disruption to make sure the system's always uh adapting and and and malleable always uh adapting and and and malleable always uh adapting and and and malleable otherwise if things otherwise if things otherwise if things are Immortal you know if you have let's are Immortal you know if you have let's are Immortal you know if you have let's say corporations that are there forever say corporations that are there forever say corporations that are there forever and they have the Monopoly they get and they have the Monopoly they get and they have the Monopoly they get calcified they they become not as calcified they they become not as calcified they they become not as optimal not as high Fitness in a optimal not as high Fitness in a optimal not as high Fitness in a changing time varying landscape right changing time varying landscape right changing time varying landscape right and so uh death gives space for uh Youth and so uh death gives space for uh Youth and so uh death gives space for uh Youth and Novelty to to take its place and I and Novelty to to take its place and I and Novelty to to take its place and I think it's an important part of every think it's an important part of every think it's an important part of every system and nature so yeah I am for I am system and nature so yeah I am for I am system and nature so yeah I am for I am for death but I do think that longer for death but I do think that longer for death but I do think that longer lifespan and longer time for lifespan and longer time for lifespan and longer time for neuroplasticity bigger brains which neuroplasticity bigger brains which neuroplasticity bigger brains which should be something we should strive for should be something we should strive for should be something we should strive for well in that uh Jeff Bezos and Beth jzos well in that uh Jeff Bezos and Beth jzos well in that uh Jeff Bezos and Beth jzos agree that all companies die and for agree that all companies die and for agree that all companies die and for Jeff the the goal is to try to he calls Jeff the the goal is to try to he calls Jeff the the goal is to try to he calls it day one thinking try to constantly it day one thinking try to constantly it day one thinking try to constantly for as long as possible for as long as possible for as long as possible reinvent sort of extend the life of the reinvent sort of extend the life of the reinvent sort of extend the life of the company but eventually it too will die company but eventually it too will die company but eventually it too will die cuz it's so damn difficult to keep cuz it's so damn difficult to keep cuz it's so damn difficult to keep Reinventing um are you afraid of your Reinventing um are you afraid of your Reinventing um are you afraid of your own own own death um I think I have ideas and things death um I think I have ideas and things death um I think I have ideas and things I'd like to achieve in this world before I'd like to achieve in this world before I'd like to achieve in this world before I have to go but I don't think I'm I have to go but I don't think I'm I have to go but I don't think I'm necessarily afraid of death so you're necessarily afraid of death so you're necessarily afraid of death so you're not attached to the this particular body

not attached to the this particular body not attached to the this particular body and mind that you got no I I think I'm and mind that you got no I I think I'm and mind that you got no I I think I'm sure there's going to be better versions sure there's going to be better versions sure there's going to be better versions of of myself in in the the future or of of myself in in the the future or of of myself in in the the future or forks forks right genetic Forks or or forks forks right genetic Forks or or forks forks right genetic Forks or or other right I I I truly I truly believe other right I I I truly I truly believe other right I I I truly I truly believe that I I I think there's a sort of uh that I I I think there's a sort of uh that I I I think there's a sort of uh evolutionary like algorithm happening at evolutionary like algorithm happening at evolutionary like algorithm happening at at every bit or or G in in the world is at every bit or or G in in the world is at every bit or or G in in the world is sort of adapting through this process sort of adapting through this process sort of adapting through this process that we describe in in eak and and uh I that we describe in in eak and and uh I that we describe in in eak and and uh I think maintaining this adaptation think maintaining this adaptation think maintaining this adaptation malleability is how we have constant malleability is how we have constant malleability is how we have constant optimization of the whole machine and so optimization of the whole machine and so optimization of the whole machine and so I don't think I'm particularly you know I don't think I'm particularly you know I don't think I'm particularly you know an Optimum that needs to stick around an Optimum that needs to stick around an Optimum that needs to stick around forever I think there's going to be forever I think there's going to be forever I think there's going to be greater Optima in many ways what do you greater Optima in many ways what do you greater Optima in many ways what do you think is the meaning of it all what's think is the meaning of it all what's think is the meaning of it all what's the why of the machine the eak the why of the machine the eak the why of the machine the eak machine the why well the why is machine the why well the why is machine the why well the why is thermodynamics it's it's it's why we're thermodynamics it's it's it's why we're thermodynamics it's it's it's why we're here it's what has led to the formation here it's what has led to the formation here it's what has led to the formation of life and of civilization of evolution of life and of civilization of evolution of life and of civilization of evolution of Technologies and growth of of Technologies and growth of of Technologies and growth of civilization but why do we have civilization but why do we have civilization but why do we have thermodynamics why do we have our thermodynamics why do we have our thermodynamics why do we have our particular Universe why do we have these particular Universe why do we have these particular Universe why do we have these particular hyperparameters the constants particular hyperparameters the constants particular hyperparameters the constants of of of nature well then you get into the nature well then you get into the nature well then you get into the anthropic principle right in the anthropic principle right in the anthropic principle right in the landscape of potential universes right landscape of potential universes right landscape of potential universes right we're in the universe that allows for we're in the universe that allows for we're in the universe that allows for Life uh and then why is there

Life uh and then why is there Life uh and then why is there potentially many potentially many potentially many universes I don't know I don't know that universes I don't know I don't know that universes I don't know I don't know that part but could we potentially and part but could we potentially and part but could we potentially and engineer new universes or create pocket engineer new universes or create pocket engineer new universes or create pocket universes uh and set the hyperparameters universes uh and set the hyperparameters universes uh and set the hyperparameters so there is some mutual information so there is some mutual information so there is some mutual information between our existence and that universe between our existence and that universe between our existence and that universe and we'd be somewhat its parents I think and we'd be somewhat its parents I think and we'd be somewhat its parents I think that's really I don't know that'd be that's really I don't know that'd be that's really I don't know that'd be very poetic it's purely conjecture but very poetic it's purely conjecture but very poetic it's purely conjecture but um again this is why figuring out um again this is why figuring out um again this is why figuring out quantum gravity would allow us to quantum gravity would allow us to quantum gravity would allow us to understand if we can do that and above understand if we can do that and above understand if we can do that and above that why do it all seem so beautiful and that why do it all seem so beautiful and that why do it all seem so beautiful and exciting the the quest of freaking exciting the the quest of freaking exciting the the quest of freaking quantum quantum quantum gravity seems so exciting why why is gravity seems so exciting why why is gravity seems so exciting why why is that why are we drawn to that why are we that why are we drawn to that why are we that why are we drawn to that why are we pulled towards that just just that pulled towards that just just that pulled towards that just just that puzzle solving creative force that puzzle solving creative force that puzzle solving creative force that underpins all of it it seems like I underpins all of it it seems like I underpins all of it it seems like I think we seek just like an llm seeks to think we seek just like an llm seeks to think we seek just like an llm seeks to minimize cross entropy between its minimize cross entropy between its minimize cross entropy between its internal model in the world we seek to internal model in the world we seek to internal model in the world we seek to minimize yeah the statistical Divergence minimize yeah the statistical Divergence minimize yeah the statistical Divergence between our predictions the world and between our predictions the world and between our predictions the world and and the world itself and you know having and the world itself and you know having and the world itself and you know having regimes of energy scales or physical regimes of energy scales or physical regimes of energy scales or physical scales in which we have no visibility no scales in which we have no visibility no scales in which we have no visibility no ability to predict or perceive um you ability to predict or perceive um you ability to predict or perceive um you know that's kind of an insult to us and know that's kind of an insult to us and know that's kind of an insult to us and we we want to we want to be able to we we want to we want to be able to we we want to we want to be able to understand the world better in order to understand the world better in order to understand the world better in order to best steer steer it or steer us through best steer steer it or steer us through best steer steer it or steer us through it um and in general it's a capability

it um and in general it's a capability it um and in general it's a capability that has evolved because the better you that has evolved because the better you that has evolved because the better you can predict the world the better you can can predict the world the better you can can predict the world the better you can capture utility your free energy towards capture utility your free energy towards capture utility your free energy towards your own sustenance and growth and I your own sustenance and growth and I your own sustenance and growth and I think quantum gravity again is kind of think quantum gravity again is kind of think quantum gravity again is kind of the the final boss uh in terms of the the final boss uh in terms of the the final boss uh in terms of knowledge acquisition um because once knowledge acquisition um because once knowledge acquisition um because once we've mastered that then we we've mastered that then we we've mastered that then we can do a lot potentially but between can do a lot potentially but between can do a lot potentially but between here and there I think there's a lot to here and there I think there's a lot to here and there I think there's a lot to learn in the mesos scales there's a lot learn in the mesos scales there's a lot learn in the mesos scales there's a lot of information to acquire about our of information to acquire about our of information to acquire about our world and a lot of engineering world and a lot of engineering world and a lot of engineering perception prediction and control to be perception prediction and control to be perception prediction and control to be done done done uh to climb up the cter shift scale and uh to climb up the cter shift scale and uh to climb up the cter shift scale and to us it's that's the great challenge of to us it's that's the great challenge of to us it's that's the great challenge of our times and when you're not sure where our times and when you're not sure where our times and when you're not sure where to go let the meme pave the to go let the meme pave the to go let the meme pave the way uh Gom uh Beth thank you for talking way uh Gom uh Beth thank you for talking way uh Gom uh Beth thank you for talking today thank you for the work you're today thank you for the work you're today thank you for the work you're doing thank you for the humor and the doing thank you for the humor and the doing thank you for the humor and the wisdom you put into the world this was wisdom you put into the world this was wisdom you put into the world this was awesome thank you so much for having me awesome thank you so much for having me awesome thank you so much for having me Lux it's a pleasure thank you for Lux it's a pleasure thank you for Lux it's a pleasure thank you for listening to this conversation with guon listening to this conversation with guon listening to this conversation with guon Verdon to support this podcast please Verdon to support this podcast please Verdon to support this podcast please check out our sponsors in the check out our sponsors in the check out our sponsors in the description and now let me leave you description and now let me leave you description and now let me leave you with some words from Albert Einstein if with some words from Albert Einstein if with some words from Albert Einstein if at first the idea is not absurd then at first the idea is not absurd then at first the idea is not absurd then there is no hope for it thank you for there is no hope for it thank you for there is no hope for it thank you for listening I hope to see you next