Harvey Silverglate: Freedom of Speech | Lex Fridman Podcast #377

it is the most important right that it is the most important right that Americans have Americans have Americans have it's not a coincidence it's not a coincidence it's not a coincidence or an accident that it's named in the or an accident that it's named in the or an accident that it's named in the First Amendment First Amendment First Amendment to the Constitution to the Constitution to the Constitution without it no Democratic Society can be without it no Democratic Society can be without it no Democratic Society can be Democratic for long Democratic for long Democratic for long and I'm an absolutist and I'm an absolutist and I'm an absolutist that is um I believe that for example that is um I believe that for example that is um I believe that for example people say to me people say to me people say to me but what about hate speech but what about hate speech but what about hate speech well hate speech is much more important well hate speech is much more important well hate speech is much more important than love speech and the reason is I'm than love speech and the reason is I'm than love speech and the reason is I'm much more interested in knowing whom I much more interested in knowing whom I much more interested in knowing whom I should not turn my back on should not turn my back on should not turn my back on then I am interested in then I am interested in then I am interested in figuring out who loves me the following is a conversation with the following is a conversation with Harvey silverglade a legendary free Harvey silverglade a legendary free Harvey silverglade a legendary free speech Advocate co-founder of fire the speech Advocate co-founder of fire the speech Advocate co-founder of fire the foundation for individual rights and foundation for individual rights and foundation for individual rights and expression and the author of several expression and the author of several expression and the author of several books on the freedom of speech and books on the freedom of speech and books on the freedom of speech and criminal justice including the shadow criminal justice including the shadow criminal justice including the shadow University the Betrayal of Liberty on University the Betrayal of Liberty on University the Betrayal of Liberty on America's campuses America's campuses America's campuses Harvey is running to be on the Harvard Harvey is running to be on the Harvard Harvey is running to be on the Harvard Board of overseers this year with the Board of overseers this year with the Board of overseers this year with the writing campaign so you have to spell writing campaign so you have to spell writing campaign so you have to spell his name correctly civil glat his name correctly civil glat his name correctly civil glat promising to advocate for free speech promising to advocate for free speech promising to advocate for free speech and to push for reducing the size of and to push for reducing the size of and to push for reducing the size of Harvard's Administration bureaucracy Harvard's Administration bureaucracy Harvard's Administration bureaucracy election is over this Tuesday May 16th election is over this Tuesday May 16th election is over this Tuesday May 16th at 5 PM Eastern at 5 PM Eastern at 5 PM Eastern to vote you have to be Harvard alumni so to vote you have to be Harvard alumni so to vote you have to be Harvard alumni so if you happen to be one please vote if you happen to be one please vote if you happen to be one please vote online it's a good way to support online it's a good way to support online it's a good way to support freedom of speech on Harvard campus

freedom of speech on Harvard campus freedom of speech on Harvard campus instructions how to do so are in the instructions how to do so are in the instructions how to do so are in the description description description as a side note please allow me to say as a side note please allow me to say as a side note please allow me to say that since there are several that since there are several that since there are several controversial conversations coming up I controversial conversations coming up I controversial conversations coming up I tried to make sure that this podcast is tried to make sure that this podcast is tried to make sure that this podcast is a platform for free discourse where a platform for free discourse where a platform for free discourse where ideas are not censored but explored and ideas are not censored but explored and ideas are not censored but explored and if necessary challenged in a thoughtful if necessary challenged in a thoughtful if necessary challenged in a thoughtful and pathetic way is by having such and pathetic way is by having such and pathetic way is by having such difficult conversations not by avoiding difficult conversations not by avoiding difficult conversations not by avoiding them that we can begin to heal divides them that we can begin to heal divides them that we can begin to heal divides and to shed lights on the dark parts of and to shed lights on the dark parts of and to shed lights on the dark parts of human history and Human Nature human history and Human Nature human history and Human Nature this is the Lex Friedman podcast to this is the Lex Friedman podcast to this is the Lex Friedman podcast to support it please check out our sponsors support it please check out our sponsors support it please check out our sponsors in the description and now dear friends in the description and now dear friends in the description and now dear friends here's Harvey silverglade here's Harvey silverglade here's Harvey silverglade you co-founded the foundation for you co-founded the foundation for you co-founded the foundation for individual rights and expression also individual rights and expression also individual rights and expression also known as fire a legendary organization known as fire a legendary organization known as fire a legendary organization that fights for the freedom of speech that fights for the freedom of speech that fights for the freedom of speech for all Americans in our courtrooms on for all Americans in our courtrooms on for all Americans in our courtrooms on our campuses and in our culture so let's our campuses and in our culture so let's our campuses and in our culture so let's start with the big question what is start with the big question what is start with the big question what is freedom of speech first of all the freedom of speech first of all the freedom of speech first of all the organization when I co-founded it in organization when I co-founded it in organization when I co-founded it in 1999 1999 1999 was called the foundation for individual was called the foundation for individual was called the foundation for individual rights in education rights in education rights in education it focused on it focused on it focused on Free Speech issues on college campuses Free Speech issues on college campuses Free Speech issues on college campuses in Academia in Academia in Academia and only earlier this year did we decide and only earlier this year did we decide and only earlier this year did we decide to expand our reach beyond the campuses to expand our reach beyond the campuses to expand our reach beyond the campuses which is why the name although the which is why the name although the which is why the name although the acronym fire remains it's now the

acronym fire remains it's now the acronym fire remains it's now the foundation for individual rights and foundation for individual rights and foundation for individual rights and expression the e used to be education expression the e used to be education expression the e used to be education the e used to be education it's now the e used to be education it's now the e used to be education it's now expression and we basically do a lot of expression and we basically do a lot of expression and we basically do a lot of the cases the ACLU used to do the ACLU the cases the ACLU used to do the ACLU the cases the ACLU used to do the ACLU now Moore's the the progressive now Moore's the the progressive now Moore's the the progressive organization rather than a civil organization rather than a civil organization rather than a civil liberties organization liberties organization liberties organization and um and we've taken the um the the and um and we've taken the um the the and um and we've taken the um the the role of dealing with free speech in in role of dealing with free speech in in role of dealing with free speech in in the society generally in and now this is the society generally in and now this is the society generally in and now this is a particularly a particularly a particularly um um um uh an era prone to censorship uh an era prone to censorship uh an era prone to censorship um everybody thinks they're right that um everybody thinks they're right that um everybody thinks they're right that people who disagree with them should not people who disagree with them should not people who disagree with them should not be able to voice their views it's a very be able to voice their views it's a very be able to voice their views it's a very difficult period right now both on difficult period right now both on difficult period right now both on campus and off campus campus and off campus campus and off campus um it's about as as intolerant an era as um it's about as as intolerant an era as um it's about as as intolerant an era as I can remember in I'm going to be 81 May I can remember in I'm going to be 81 May I can remember in I'm going to be 81 May 10th I was born on Mother's Day 1942. 10th I was born on Mother's Day 1942. 10th I was born on Mother's Day 1942. and I can't remember it being this bad I and I can't remember it being this bad I and I can't remember it being this bad I was born during the McCarthy era was born during the McCarthy era was born during the McCarthy era um so that says a lot and um it sort of um so that says a lot and um it sort of um so that says a lot and um it sort of reminds me of that reminds me of that reminds me of that well let's start with that almost a well let's start with that almost a well let's start with that almost a philosophical question a legal question philosophical question a legal question philosophical question a legal question a human question what is this Freedom a human question what is this Freedom a human question what is this Freedom that you care so much about that you that you care so much about that you that you care so much about that you fought for so much freedom of speech it fought for so much freedom of speech it fought for so much freedom of speech it is the most important right that is the most important right that is the most important right that Americans have Americans have Americans have it's not a coincidence it's not a coincidence it's not a coincidence or an accident that it's named in the or an accident that it's named in the or an accident that it's named in the First Amendment First Amendment First Amendment to the Constitution

to the Constitution to the Constitution without it no Democratic Society can be without it no Democratic Society can be without it no Democratic Society can be Democratic for long Democratic for long Democratic for long and I'm an absolutist and I'm an absolutist and I'm an absolutist that is um I believe that for example that is um I believe that for example that is um I believe that for example people say to me people say to me people say to me but what about hate speech but what about hate speech but what about hate speech well hate speech is much more important well hate speech is much more important well hate speech is much more important than love speech and the reason is I'm than love speech and the reason is I'm than love speech and the reason is I'm much more interested in knowing whom I much more interested in knowing whom I much more interested in knowing whom I should not turn my back on should not turn my back on should not turn my back on that I am interested in that I am interested in that I am interested in figuring out who loves me or who likes figuring out who loves me or who likes figuring out who loves me or who likes me me me so hate speech is the most important in so hate speech is the most important in so hate speech is the most important in my view and yet it's uh it's banned in my view and yet it's uh it's banned in my view and yet it's uh it's banned in for example schools it's unbelievable for example schools it's unbelievable for example schools it's unbelievable um kids are not schooled into um kids are not schooled into um kids are not schooled into understanding the glory of the first understanding the glory of the first understanding the glory of the first amendment when when schools say to them amendment when when schools say to them amendment when when schools say to them they shouldn't say things that are going they shouldn't say things that are going they shouldn't say things that are going to make somebody feel bad to make somebody feel bad to make somebody feel bad um I mean the purpose of speech is to um I mean the purpose of speech is to um I mean the purpose of speech is to express honest express honest express honest views that people have and um so I views that people have and um so I views that people have and um so I believe hate speech is as important as believe hate speech is as important as believe hate speech is as important as love speech and my view is more love speech and my view is more love speech and my view is more important important important so it should be brought to the surface so it should be brought to the surface so it should be brought to the surface rather than operate in Shadows rather than operate in Shadows rather than operate in Shadows absolutely absolutely absolutely absolutely what is the connection absolutely what is the connection absolutely what is the connection between freedom of speech and freedom of between freedom of speech and freedom of between freedom of speech and freedom of thought thought thought well in a free Society well in a free Society well in a free Society thoughts start in the brain and then thoughts start in the brain and then thoughts start in the brain and then they come out the mouth they come out the mouth they come out the mouth so there are different ends of the same so there are different ends of the same so there are different ends of the same Spectrum so to you the censorship of

Spectrum so to you the censorship of Spectrum so to you the censorship of speech eventually leads to a censorship speech eventually leads to a censorship speech eventually leads to a censorship of thought of course censorship of the of thought of course censorship of the of thought of course censorship of the mode by which other people know what mode by which other people know what mode by which other people know what you're thinking you're thinking you're thinking so there's some aspect of our society so there's some aspect of our society so there's some aspect of our society that is uh the thinking is done that is uh the thinking is done that is uh the thinking is done collectively and without being able to collectively and without being able to collectively and without being able to speak to each other we cannot do this speak to each other we cannot do this speak to each other we cannot do this kind of collective ranking and out of kind of collective ranking and out of kind of collective ranking and out of speed the theory is that ultimately out speed the theory is that ultimately out speed the theory is that ultimately out of speech comes truth that isn't no of speech comes truth that isn't no of speech comes truth that isn't no necessarily so necessarily so necessarily so but I do think that when there's free but I do think that when there's free but I do think that when there's free speech better decisions are made because speech better decisions are made because speech better decisions are made because people put their views on the table in a people put their views on the table in a people put their views on the table in a Frank accurate way and then those views Frank accurate way and then those views Frank accurate way and then those views mixed together mixed together mixed together and clash and out of that usually and clash and out of that usually and clash and out of that usually comes the better the better decision comes the better the better decision comes the better the better decision not always but usually more more often not always but usually more more often not always but usually more more often than not but if somebody is not allowed than not but if somebody is not allowed than not but if somebody is not allowed to be a you know sit at the table of to be a you know sit at the table of to be a you know sit at the table of decision making decision making decision making then the decision-making process is then the decision-making process is then the decision-making process is poorer poorer poorer um less robust um less robust um less robust diverse diverse diverse and ultimately less successful and ultimately less successful and ultimately less successful so can you elaborate on the idea Free so can you elaborate on the idea Free so can you elaborate on the idea Free Speech absolutism Speech absolutism Speech absolutism so so so hate speech hate speech hate speech can be quite painful to quite a large can be quite painful to quite a large can be quite painful to quite a large number of people does this worry you yep number of people does this worry you yep number of people does this worry you yep living in a free Society living in a free Society living in a free Society requires that you expose yourself to requires that you expose yourself to requires that you expose yourself to some discomfort you call it pain

some discomfort you call it pain some discomfort you call it pain it's maybe emotional pain it's not it's maybe emotional pain it's not it's maybe emotional pain it's not physical pain physical pain physical pain um um um but but but it's uh it's the price we pay for living it's uh it's the price we pay for living it's uh it's the price we pay for living in a free Society every so often we're in a free Society every so often we're in a free Society every so often we're insulted insulted insulted we're emotionally hurt we're emotionally hurt we're emotionally hurt think of the alternative all the think of the alternative all the think of the alternative all the alternatives are worse nobody ever alternatives are worse nobody ever alternatives are worse nobody ever promised us a Rose Garden promised us a Rose Garden promised us a Rose Garden we're lucky to be in a country that has we're lucky to be in a country that has we're lucky to be in a country that has the First Amendment it's also the oh the First Amendment it's also the oh the First Amendment it's also the oh it's the most diverse country in the it's the most diverse country in the it's the most diverse country in the world world world because of immigration because of immigration because of immigration I mean my my I mean my my I mean my my grandparents My Father's Side came over grandparents My Father's Side came over grandparents My Father's Side came over from Russia my mother's side came home from Russia my mother's side came home from Russia my mother's side came home from Poland from Poland from Poland I'm very happy that my grandparents came I'm very happy that my grandparents came I'm very happy that my grandparents came in from Russia I would not want to be in in from Russia I would not want to be in in from Russia I would not want to be in Russia today I'd probably be sharing a Russia today I'd probably be sharing a Russia today I'd probably be sharing a cell with a Wall Street Journal reporter cell with a Wall Street Journal reporter cell with a Wall Street Journal reporter um so um I'm thankful that they came in um so um I'm thankful that they came in um so um I'm thankful that they came in and um this is a great country it's got and um this is a great country it's got and um this is a great country it's got troubles right now but our country troubles right now but our country troubles right now but our country doesn't and we've had it's really had a doesn't and we've had it's really had a doesn't and we've had it's really had a civil war we had segregation uh we had civil war we had segregation uh we had civil war we had segregation uh we had the decimation of the Indians we're not the decimation of the Indians we're not the decimation of the Indians we're not perfect perfect perfect but it's the best place in the world for but it's the best place in the world for but it's the best place in the world for somebody who values Liberty so you don't somebody who values Liberty so you don't somebody who values Liberty so you don't think that hate speech can Empower large think that hate speech can Empower large think that hate speech can Empower large groups groups groups that uh that uh that uh eventually lead to physical action to eventually lead to physical action to eventually lead to physical action to physical harm to others no I don't I

physical harm to others no I don't I physical harm to others no I don't I think that think that think that that that that um we have developed a culture in which um we have developed a culture in which um we have developed a culture in which um it's understood that if you don't um it's understood that if you don't um it's understood that if you don't like what you hear you you talk back like what you hear you you talk back like what you hear you you talk back um you write you write something um you write you write something um you write you write something um um um we don't punch each other we insult each we don't punch each other we insult each we don't punch each other we insult each other other other um it's insulting great well I don't um it's insulting great well I don't um it's insulting great well I don't know it's okay I used to as a kid in know it's okay I used to as a kid in know it's okay I used to as a kid in Brooklyn where I was born I was born and Brooklyn where I was born I was born and Brooklyn where I was born I was born and raised in Bensonhurst raised in Bensonhurst raised in Bensonhurst we used to say Sticks and Stones can we used to say Sticks and Stones can we used to say Sticks and Stones can break by bones but names can never harm break by bones but names can never harm break by bones but names can never harm me and it's absolutely true if what was me and it's absolutely true if what was me and it's absolutely true if what was true when I was five is true and I'm I'm true when I was five is true and I'm I'm true when I was five is true and I'm I'm almost 81. almost 81. almost 81. so I've lived a long time I've seen it so I've lived a long time I've seen it so I've lived a long time I've seen it all all all and I'm talking from experience as well and I'm talking from experience as well and I'm talking from experience as well as Theory as Theory as Theory it's what happens when you reach your it's what happens when you reach your it's what happens when you reach your 80s 80s 80s I read that you had this line that you I read that you had this line that you I read that you had this line that you cannot be protected from being called an cannot be protected from being called an cannot be protected from being called an asshole correct asshole correct asshole correct okay especially if you're an asshole okay especially if you're an asshole okay especially if you're an asshole well that's uh well that's uh well that's uh uh but you don't have to be an asshole uh but you don't have to be an asshole uh but you don't have to be an asshole to be called an asshole that's correct to be called an asshole that's correct to be called an asshole that's correct and uh I think the internet has taught and uh I think the internet has taught and uh I think the internet has taught me that well the internet is posed a me that well the internet is posed a me that well the internet is posed a particular challenge to free speech particular challenge to free speech particular challenge to free speech absolutist because of some of the stuff absolutist because of some of the stuff absolutist because of some of the stuff that's on there is god-awful that's on there is god-awful that's on there is god-awful but I have no different rule for freedom but I have no different rule for freedom but I have no different rule for freedom of speech on the internet than I have uh of speech on the internet than I have uh of speech on the internet than I have uh in newspapers or in lectures or in in newspapers or in lectures or in in newspapers or in lectures or in classrooms or or conversations among classrooms or or conversations among classrooms or or conversations among people what do you think about the

people what do you think about the people what do you think about the tension between freedom of speech and tension between freedom of speech and tension between freedom of speech and freedom of reach as is uh kind of freedom of reach as is uh kind of freedom of reach as is uh kind of sometimes termed so the internet really sometimes termed so the internet really sometimes termed so the internet really challenges that aspect it allows the challenges that aspect it allows the challenges that aspect it allows the speech to become viral and spread very speech to become viral and spread very speech to become viral and spread very quickly to a very large number of people quickly to a very large number of people quickly to a very large number of people but you know we've had we've had but you know we've had we've had but you know we've had we've had Revolutions in um Revolutions in um Revolutions in um in in the modalities of communication in in the modalities of communication in in the modalities of communication after all newspapers were the first after all newspapers were the first after all newspapers were the first challenge um radio and television um radio and television posed A new challenge posed A new challenge posed A new challenge um the FCC tried um the FCC tried um the FCC tried But ultimately gave up the attempt to But ultimately gave up the attempt to But ultimately gave up the attempt to control control control um obscenity for example um obscenity for example um obscenity for example um um um and the Supreme Court has been pretty and the Supreme Court has been pretty and the Supreme Court has been pretty close the one thing that liberal and close the one thing that liberal and close the one thing that liberal and conservative Supreme Courts right now conservative Supreme Courts right now conservative Supreme Courts right now we're in a conservative era due to Trump we're in a conservative era due to Trump we're in a conservative era due to Trump nominations um um during much of my life we were the during much of my life we were the during much of my life we were the Warren Court it was uh William O Douglas Warren Court it was uh William O Douglas Warren Court it was uh William O Douglas Brennan liberal Court Brennan liberal Court Brennan liberal Court one thing they agree on is Free Speech one thing they agree on is Free Speech one thing they agree on is Free Speech they don't agree on much else but they they don't agree on much else but they they don't agree on much else but they do agree on free speech and I think the do agree on free speech and I think the do agree on free speech and I think the reason is reason is reason is that they recognize that well my group that they recognize that well my group that they recognize that well my group is in the ascendance today but it may is in the ascendance today but it may is in the ascendance today but it may not be tomorrow and I want to have not be tomorrow and I want to have not be tomorrow and I want to have objective clear rules so that when I'm

objective clear rules so that when I'm objective clear rules so that when I'm in the minority I'm able to voice my in the minority I'm able to voice my in the minority I'm able to voice my opinion opinion opinion and so it's one of the few things that and so it's one of the few things that and so it's one of the few things that both sides of the political Spectrum both sides of the political Spectrum both sides of the political Spectrum agree on the only people who don't or agree on the only people who don't or agree on the only people who don't or the the people way over on the right the the people way over on the right the the people way over on the right that I call the fascists and the people that I call the fascists and the people that I call the fascists and the people way over on the left who are the way over on the left who are the way over on the left who are the Communists Communists Communists um but with respect to most people in um but with respect to most people in um but with respect to most people in this on the political Spectrum this on the political Spectrum this on the political Spectrum Republicans Democrats socialists Republicans Democrats socialists Republicans Democrats socialists Libertarians Libertarians Libertarians um um um they agree on the Primacy of free speech they agree on the Primacy of free speech they agree on the Primacy of free speech because it protects them because it protects them because it protects them when when protection is needed so to you when when protection is needed so to you when when protection is needed so to you even on the internet even on the internet even on the internet Free Speech absolutism should rule yes Free Speech absolutism should rule yes Free Speech absolutism should rule yes nobody's gonna die remember the death nobody's gonna die remember the death nobody's gonna die remember the death threats are not not protected threats are not not protected threats are not not protected um nobody's gonna die um nobody's gonna die um nobody's gonna die so people are going to be a little bit so people are going to be a little bit so people are going to be a little bit insulted that's the price you pay for insulted that's the price you pay for insulted that's the price you pay for living in a free society and it's a living in a free society and it's a living in a free society and it's a small price in my view small price in my view small price in my view um people some people don't have as um people some people don't have as um people some people don't have as tough a hide as others well then develop tough a hide as others well then develop tough a hide as others well then develop it um I hope everyone I don't mean to it um I hope everyone I don't mean to it um I hope everyone I don't mean to sound uh cruel sound uh cruel sound uh cruel um but you know you're living in a free um but you know you're living in a free um but you know you're living in a free Society develop a tough hide Society develop a tough hide Society develop a tough hide so that's the cost of living in a free so that's the cost of living in a free so that's the cost of living in a free Society there's a cost the thing is that Society there's a cost the thing is that Society there's a cost the thing is that it can really hurt at scale to be Cyber it can really hurt at scale to be Cyber it can really hurt at scale to be Cyber Bullied to be attacked for the ideas the Bullied to be attacked for the ideas the Bullied to be attacked for the ideas the express or maybe ideas you didn't

express or maybe ideas you didn't express or maybe ideas you didn't Express but that uh somebody decided to Express but that uh somebody decided to Express but that uh somebody decided to lie about you and uh use that to attack lie about you and uh use that to attack lie about you and uh use that to attack you well first of all there are there you well first of all there are there you well first of all there are there were so there were some exceptions to were so there were some exceptions to were so there were some exceptions to the First Amendment the First Amendment the First Amendment libel and slander is an exception libel and slander is an exception libel and slander is an exception um um um direct threats are an exception you know direct threats are an exception you know direct threats are an exception you know if you if you say such and such I will if you if you say such and such I will if you if you say such and such I will murder you that is not lawful murder you that is not lawful murder you that is not lawful if you say that it's somebody if you say that it's somebody if you say that it's somebody um if you say about somebody oh you know um if you say about somebody oh you know um if you say about somebody oh you know um you beat your wife um you beat your wife um you beat your wife um that that is not lawful if in fact um that that is not lawful if in fact um that that is not lawful if in fact the person knows you don't beat your the person knows you don't beat your the person knows you don't beat your wife wife wife there are some limits defamation is one there are some limits defamation is one there are some limits defamation is one direct threats are another direct threats are another direct threats are another um so it's not absolute this is not the um so it's not absolute this is not the um so it's not absolute this is not the first amendment is not absolute but this first amendment is not absolute but this first amendment is not absolute but this is it's more absolute than it is in any is it's more absolute than it is in any is it's more absolute than it is in any other society and it's pretty near other society and it's pretty near other society and it's pretty near absolute absolute absolute um um um for example fraud if you would sell for example fraud if you would sell for example fraud if you would sell somebody a car and you say oh this is in somebody a car and you say oh this is in somebody a car and you say oh this is in great running shape and in fact it's an great running shape and in fact it's an great running shape and in fact it's an old jalopy and it's not going to make it old jalopy and it's not going to make it old jalopy and it's not going to make it more than 10 miles more than 10 miles more than 10 miles that's fraud that's not free speech that's fraud that's not free speech that's fraud that's not free speech um so free speech is not absolute there um so free speech is not absolute there um so free speech is not absolute there are these limits but they're very narrow are these limits but they're very narrow are these limits but they're very narrow specific categories of limits specific categories of limits specific categories of limits but uh this gray area here because while but uh this gray area here because while but uh this gray area here because while legally you're not allowed to defame a legally you're not allowed to defame a legally you're not allowed to defame a person person person in the court of public opinion

in the court of public opinion in the court of public opinion especially with the aid of anonymity on especially with the aid of anonymity on especially with the aid of anonymity on the internet the internet the internet the rumors can spread the rumors can spread the rumors can spread at scale thousands hundreds of thousands at scale thousands hundreds of thousands at scale thousands hundreds of thousands of people can make up things about you of people can make up things about you of people can make up things about you you have to defend yourself using more you have to defend yourself using more you have to defend yourself using more speech we're we're big we're through speech we're we're big we're through speech we're we're big we're through freedom of speech and we're big boys and freedom of speech and we're big boys and freedom of speech and we're big boys and girls girls girls um you have to defend yourself um you have to defend yourself um you have to defend yourself um you know in in some societies if you um you know in in some societies if you um you know in in some societies if you say something say something say something um if you right now if you say something um if you right now if you say something um if you right now if you say something nasty about Putin you'll end up in the nasty about Putin you'll end up in the nasty about Putin you'll end up in the gulag gulag gulag um if you say something nasty about um if you say something nasty about um if you say something nasty about um you know Biden you end up in the New um you know Biden you end up in the New um you know Biden you end up in the New York Times where would you rather be York Times where would you rather be York Times where would you rather be well let's talk about well let's talk about well let's talk about the thing you've done for over 20 years the thing you've done for over 20 years the thing you've done for over 20 years which is fight for the freedom of speech which is fight for the freedom of speech which is fight for the freedom of speech on college campuses on college campuses on college campuses so why is freedom of speech important on so why is freedom of speech important on so why is freedom of speech important on college campuses well it's important college campuses well it's important college campuses well it's important everywhere in the society but it's most everywhere in the society but it's most everywhere in the society but it's most important on college campuses why important on college campuses why important on college campuses why because that's where we educate our because that's where we educate our because that's where we educate our young citizens young citizens young citizens and if you are educated and if you are educated and if you are educated under a notion that some Dean can can under a notion that some Dean can can under a notion that some Dean can can call you on the carpet because you say call you on the carpet because you say call you on the carpet because you say something which is considered racist so something which is considered racist so something which is considered racist so you can say something which is uh you can say something which is uh you can say something which is uh considered uh then you know dangerous to considered uh then you know dangerous to considered uh then you know dangerous to uh to the social cohesion uh to the social cohesion uh to the social cohesion um then it's not a liberal arts college um then it's not a liberal arts college um then it's not a liberal arts college now now now um the um the theory that

um the um the theory that um the um the theory that I used in in the shadow University I used in in the shadow University I used in in the shadow University a book you've written the shadow a book you've written the shadow a book you've written the shadow Universe 1998 Universe 1998 Universe 1998 1998. you were ahead of a lot of these 1998. you were ahead of a lot of these 1998. you were ahead of a lot of these things I'm afraid that as as a pessimist things I'm afraid that as as a pessimist things I'm afraid that as as a pessimist I always saw the bad side of things I always saw the bad side of things I always saw the bad side of things betrayal of Liberty on America's betrayal of Liberty on America's betrayal of Liberty on America's campuses the shadow University the a campuses the shadow University the a campuses the shadow University the a book you co-authored with the Alan book you co-authored with the Alan book you co-authored with the Alan Charles yes with one of my Princeton Charles yes with one of my Princeton Charles yes with one of my Princeton classmates Alan Charles cores who's now classmates Alan Charles cores who's now classmates Alan Charles cores who's now an Emeritus professor of Enlightenment an Emeritus professor of Enlightenment an Emeritus professor of Enlightenment history at the University of history at the University of history at the University of Pennsylvania Pennsylvania Pennsylvania I only taught for one semester and I can I only taught for one semester and I can I only taught for one semester and I can go into that later the reason that I did go into that later the reason that I did go into that later the reason that I did not continue to teach in colleges um it not continue to teach in colleges um it not continue to teach in colleges um it was Harvard Law School I I taught a was Harvard Law School I I taught a was Harvard Law School I I taught a course in the mid-1980s course in the mid-1980s course in the mid-1980s um but in any event um but in any event um but in any event um the college campuses are one of the um the college campuses are one of the um the college campuses are one of the most important of all for uh for free most important of all for uh for free most important of all for uh for free speech because this is where people get speech because this is where people get speech because this is where people get education education education and if you don't really get a good and if you don't really get a good and if you don't really get a good education if certain points of view are education if certain points of view are education if certain points of view are not allowed to be expressed because not allowed to be expressed because not allowed to be expressed because education comes from The Clash of ideas education comes from The Clash of ideas education comes from The Clash of ideas and you then have to decide this is the and you then have to decide this is the and you then have to decide this is the this is how you become a thinking adult this is how you become a thinking adult this is how you become a thinking adult you have to decide which ideas make more you have to decide which ideas make more you have to decide which ideas make more sense to you which ones you're going to sense to you which ones you're going to sense to you which ones you're going to follow follow follow um the college experience is um the college experience is um the college experience is transformative transformative transformative and if there is censorship on campuses and if there is censorship on campuses and if there is censorship on campuses it's highly destructive of the it's highly destructive of the it's highly destructive of the educational Enterprise

educational Enterprise educational Enterprise and ultimately to the entire Society you and ultimately to the entire Society you and ultimately to the entire Society you know we have in the Sciences know we have in the Sciences know we have in the Sciences um we have a scientific method um we have a scientific method um we have a scientific method so scientific method is you try so scientific method is you try so scientific method is you try experiments and you see which ones work experiments and you see which ones work experiments and you see which ones work and then you develop theories based to and then you develop theories based to and then you develop theories based to public results of experiments well this public results of experiments well this public results of experiments well this is not much different from every other is not much different from every other is not much different from every other aspect of life aspect of life aspect of life you have to entertain different views on you have to entertain different views on you have to entertain different views on different subjects you hear all the different subjects you hear all the different subjects you hear all the views and you make a decision as to views and you make a decision as to views and you make a decision as to which one's accurate which one's not which one's accurate which one's not which one's accurate which one's not so the scientific method I apply to so the scientific method I apply to so the scientific method I apply to um to non-science to history to um to non-science to history to um to non-science to history to journalism journalism journalism um to all of these things so that um to all of these things so that um to all of these things so that scientific method includes ideas hateful scientific method includes ideas hateful scientific method includes ideas hateful ideas also correct if you don't allow ideas also correct if you don't allow ideas also correct if you don't allow hateful ideas I mean when scientists do hateful ideas I mean when scientists do hateful ideas I mean when scientists do experiments nobody says to them oh you experiments nobody says to them oh you experiments nobody says to them oh you know don't don't do that experiment know don't don't do that experiment know don't don't do that experiment because it would be very bad if that because it would be very bad if that because it would be very bad if that turns out to be accurate you know that turns out to be accurate you know that turns out to be accurate you know that outcome that's not the way it works outcome that's not the way it works outcome that's not the way it works um um um every every point of view is thrown into every every point of view is thrown into every every point of view is thrown into the marketplace whether it's science or the marketplace whether it's science or the marketplace whether it's science or whether it's a whether it's a whether it's a you know non-science and that includes you know non-science and that includes you know non-science and that includes uh the kind of ideas and the kind of uh the kind of ideas and the kind of uh the kind of ideas and the kind of discourse that might actually lead to an discourse that might actually lead to an discourse that might actually lead to an increase in hate on campuses the the the increase in hate on campuses the the the increase in hate on campuses the the the First Amendment First Amendment First Amendment prohibits speech which is liable to prohibits speech which is liable to prohibits speech which is liable to produce produce produce imminent imminent violence so for

imminent imminent violence so for imminent imminent violence so for example example example um you know the um the exception is um um you know the um the exception is um um you know the um the exception is um yelling uh falsely falsely yelling fire yelling uh falsely falsely yelling fire yelling uh falsely falsely yelling fire in a crowded movie theater a lot of in a crowded movie theater a lot of in a crowded movie theater a lot of people misstate it they say oh people misstate it they say oh people misstate it they say oh um the exception is yelling fire in a um the exception is yelling fire in a um the exception is yelling fire in a movie theater if there's really a fire movie theater if there's really a fire movie theater if there's really a fire you're performing a real important you're performing a real important you're performing a real important function function function but it's falsely yelling fire you can but it's falsely yelling fire you can but it's falsely yelling fire you can start a riot people would be crushed try start a riot people would be crushed try start a riot people would be crushed try to get out to get out to get out so there are these that that's one of so there are these that that's one of so there are these that that's one of the exceptions that the First Amendment the exceptions that the First Amendment the exceptions that the First Amendment as the Supreme Court has defined it as the Supreme Court has defined it as the Supreme Court has defined it um um um there are very few exceptions there are very few exceptions there are very few exceptions um and defamation is an exception I'm a um and defamation is an exception I'm a um and defamation is an exception I'm a I'm not a fan of that exception frankly I'm not a fan of that exception frankly I'm not a fan of that exception frankly but um if you say something but um if you say something but um if you say something um about somebody that has serious um about somebody that has serious um about somebody that has serious implications in their uh in their life implications in their uh in their life implications in their uh in their life and their ability their own living if and their ability their own living if and their ability their own living if you say accuse somebody of being a you say accuse somebody of being a you say accuse somebody of being a pedophile but it's not true pedophile but it's not true pedophile but it's not true that person can sue you that person can sue you that person can sue you um my own view is I think that's an um my own view is I think that's an um my own view is I think that's an unfortunate exception but I'm not on the unfortunate exception but I'm not on the unfortunate exception but I'm not on the Supreme Court Supreme Court Supreme Court um I think that I'm I'm with I um I think that I'm I'm with I um I think that I'm I'm with I a friend of mine was not hentoff a friend of mine was not hentoff a friend of mine was not hentoff that hand tough who wrote for decades that hand tough who wrote for decades that hand tough who wrote for decades for the Village Voice in New York for the Village Voice in New York for the Village Voice in New York um um um he was a friend of mine he was a free he was a friend of mine he was a free he was a friend of mine he was a free speech absolutist speech absolutist speech absolutist and uh he wrote a fabulous book called and uh he wrote a fabulous book called and uh he wrote a fabulous book called free speech for me but not for thee

free speech for me but not for thee free speech for me but not for thee um and he was an absolutist and I'm I'm um and he was an absolutist and I'm I'm um and he was an absolutist and I'm I'm with I'm with Matt hentoff even on the with I'm with Matt hentoff even on the with I'm with Matt hentoff even on the defamation aspect I mean I agree with defamation aspect I mean I agree with defamation aspect I mean I agree with you in some sense just practically you in some sense just practically you in some sense just practically speaking it seems like speaking it seems like speaking it seems like that the way the best way in the the that the way the best way in the the that the way the best way in the the public sphere to defend against public sphere to defend against public sphere to defend against deformation is with more speech correct deformation is with more speech correct deformation is with more speech correct and through authenticity and through authenticity and through authenticity authentic communication authentic communication authentic communication um um um of the truth as you see it yeah you know of the truth as you see it yeah you know of the truth as you see it yeah you know it's the times the Boston Globe has said it's the times the Boston Globe has said it's the times the Boston Globe has said something about me that it hasn't been something about me that it hasn't been something about me that it hasn't been accurate they have invariably published accurate they have invariably published accurate they have invariably published my letter to the editor my letter to the editor my letter to the editor um I'm also uh not bashful about getting um I'm also uh not bashful about getting um I'm also uh not bashful about getting in charge in touch with the reporter in charge in touch with the reporter in charge in touch with the reporter that at the end of every column they that at the end of every column they that at the end of every column they give the reporters email address give the reporters email address give the reporters email address um um um and I know people say that I I have more and I know people say that I I have more and I know people say that I I have more access to the media than most people access to the media than most people access to the media than most people um but um all that means is I get to um but um all that means is I get to um but um all that means is I get to fame with the most people fame with the most people fame with the most people can we also comment on from the can we also comment on from the can we also comment on from the individual consumer of speech individual consumer of speech individual consumer of speech there's a kind of uh sense that freedom there's a kind of uh sense that freedom there's a kind of uh sense that freedom of speech means your you should be of speech means your you should be of speech means your you should be forced to read all of it forced to read all of it forced to read all of it freedom of speech versus freedom of freedom of speech versus freedom of freedom of speech versus freedom of reach reach reach we as consumers of speech do we have the we as consumers of speech do we have the we as consumers of speech do we have the right to select what we read we do and right to select what we read we do and right to select what we read we do and um that nobody can force us to sit in um that nobody can force us to sit in um that nobody can force us to sit in the room and listen to a radio program the room and listen to a radio program the room and listen to a radio program that we don't want to listen to nobody that we don't want to listen to nobody that we don't want to listen to nobody can force us to read a book that we can force us to read a book that we can force us to read a book that we don't want to read

don't want to read don't want to read um the whole notion of freedom of speech um the whole notion of freedom of speech um the whole notion of freedom of speech means that people have uh autonomy on means that people have uh autonomy on means that people have uh autonomy on their choices their choices their choices in order to form a complete mind and in order to form a complete mind and in order to form a complete mind and complete human being there's a kind of complete human being there's a kind of complete human being there's a kind of tension tension tension of that autonomy of that autonomy of that autonomy versus consuming as many varied versus consuming as many varied versus consuming as many varied perspectives as possible which is perspectives as possible which is perspectives as possible which is underlying the ethic of free speech so underlying the ethic of free speech so underlying the ethic of free speech so on college campuses on college campuses on college campuses it seems like a good way to develop the it seems like a good way to develop the it seems like a good way to develop the mind is to get as many perspectives as mind is to get as many perspectives as mind is to get as many perspectives as possible even if you don't really want possible even if you don't really want possible even if you don't really want to to to well that's that is the theory academic well that's that is the theory academic well that's that is the theory academic freedom is the is supposed to be the freedom is the is supposed to be the freedom is the is supposed to be the highest degree of free speech yeah highest degree of free speech yeah highest degree of free speech yeah um you should be able to entertain all um you should be able to entertain all um you should be able to entertain all kinds of hateful kinds of hateful kinds of hateful threatening ideas and and the way I put threatening ideas and and the way I put threatening ideas and and the way I put it is there's something wrong when you it is there's something wrong when you it is there's something wrong when you can say something with complete abandon can say something with complete abandon can say something with complete abandon without any fear in Harvard Square without any fear in Harvard Square without any fear in Harvard Square whereas on the other side of the fence whereas on the other side of the fence whereas on the other side of the fence you can't say it in the Harvard Yard it you can't say it in the Harvard Yard it you can't say it in the Harvard Yard it should be the opposite should be the opposite should be the opposite and what happens is and what happens is and what happens is um universities um universities um universities from the best to the worst from the most from the best to the worst from the most from the best to the worst from the most famous to the least well known famous to the least well known famous to the least well known have been taken over by administrators have been taken over by administrators have been taken over by administrators administrators do not really subsume administrators do not really subsume administrators do not really subsume academic values they know nothing about academic values they know nothing about academic values they know nothing about the Constitution they know nothing about the Constitution they know nothing about the Constitution they know nothing about Free Speech they do nothing about Free Speech they do nothing about Free Speech they do nothing about academic freedom they feel that their

academic freedom they feel that their academic freedom they feel that their job is to keep a water job is to keep a water job is to keep a water and so they develop speech codes and so they develop speech codes and so they develop speech codes kangaroo courts to enforce the speech kangaroo courts to enforce the speech kangaroo courts to enforce the speech codes codes codes and these are very dire developments I and these are very dire developments I and these are very dire developments I wrote about them in the shadow wrote about them in the shadow wrote about them in the shadow University in 98. University in 98. University in 98. um and try to deal with them in 1999 um and try to deal with them in 1999 um and try to deal with them in 1999 when I started fire code started fire when I started fire code started fire when I started fire code started fire and um and um and um uh I would fire the reason I'm running uh I would fire the reason I'm running uh I would fire the reason I'm running currently for the Harvard Board of currently for the Harvard Board of currently for the Harvard Board of overseers is what I'd like to do is overseers is what I'd like to do is overseers is what I'd like to do is convince the Harvard Corporation the convince the Harvard Corporation the convince the Harvard Corporation the so-called president and fellows of so-called president and fellows of so-called president and fellows of Harvard College the chief governing Harvard College the chief governing Harvard College the chief governing board of the University with the real board of the University with the real board of the University with the real power power power um the board of office is is a secondary um the board of office is is a secondary um the board of office is is a secondary body but quite influential body but quite influential body but quite influential uh to fire 95 percent of the uh to fire 95 percent of the uh to fire 95 percent of the administrators administrators administrators it would have a salutary effect on the it would have a salutary effect on the it would have a salutary effect on the academics of the University would have a academics of the University would have a academics of the University would have a salutary effect on free speech and salutary effect on free speech and salutary effect on free speech and academic freedom it would cut tuitions academic freedom it would cut tuitions academic freedom it would cut tuitions by about 40 percent by about 40 percent by about 40 percent um and it would create a whole different um and it would create a whole different um and it would create a whole different atmosphere on the campus and the same atmosphere on the campus and the same atmosphere on the campus and the same set of MIT or any other place set of MIT or any other place set of MIT or any other place um I think administrators are a uh a a a um I think administrators are a uh a a a um I think administrators are a uh a a a very uh very uh very uh bad uh influence on American higher bad uh influence on American higher bad uh influence on American higher education can you sort of elaborate uh education can you sort of elaborate uh education can you sort of elaborate uh the intuition why this the intuition why this the intuition why this thing that you call administrative bloat

thing that you call administrative bloat thing that you call administrative bloat is such a bad thing for a university so is such a bad thing for a university so is such a bad thing for a university so first of all just in terms of the the first of all just in terms of the the first of all just in terms of the the cost of yeah maintaining there are more cost of yeah maintaining there are more cost of yeah maintaining there are more administrators in the American Education administrators in the American Education administrators in the American Education than they were faculty members than they were faculty members than they were faculty members the course is enormous number two the course is enormous number two the course is enormous number two they are inimical to the uh the the they are inimical to the uh the the they are inimical to the uh the the teaching Enterprise and and they feel teaching Enterprise and and they feel teaching Enterprise and and they feel that their job is to control things to that their job is to control things to that their job is to control things to make sure there are no problems that make sure there are no problems that make sure there are no problems that nobody's feelings are hurt nobody's feelings are hurt nobody's feelings are hurt um uh being called you know be before I um uh being called you know be before I um uh being called you know be before I a Dean because you said something a Dean because you said something a Dean because you said something um that insulted somebody is something um that insulted somebody is something um that insulted somebody is something that shouldn't happen in American higher that shouldn't happen in American higher that shouldn't happen in American higher education yet it happens because you education yet it happens because you education yet it happens because you have these administrators who think it's have these administrators who think it's have these administrators who think it's their job their job their job to protect people from being insulted to protect people from being insulted to protect people from being insulted you you insult a black student you you you insult a black student you you you insult a black student you insult a woman insult a woman insult a woman um there's a disciplinary hearing but um there's a disciplinary hearing but um there's a disciplinary hearing but there shouldn't be there shouldn't be there shouldn't be um um um black people uh are accustomed to being black people uh are accustomed to being black people uh are accustomed to being insulted Jews are cousins cousins women insulted Jews are cousins cousins women insulted Jews are cousins cousins women or cousins being solid and it's very or cousins being solid and it's very or cousins being solid and it's very good to know who doesn't like you it's good to know who doesn't like you it's good to know who doesn't like you it's useful it is very you it's essential useful it is very you it's essential useful it is very you it's essential information to know who doesn't like you information to know who doesn't like you information to know who doesn't like you if everybody is forced to say I love you if everybody is forced to say I love you if everybody is forced to say I love you and nobody can say I hate you you get a and nobody can say I hate you you get a and nobody can say I hate you you get a false view of what life is all about false view of what life is all about false view of what life is all about outside of the University outside the outside of the University outside the outside of the University outside the university I mean you do graduate university I mean you do graduate university I mean you do graduate eventually

and that's ultimately the mission of the and that's ultimately the mission of the university is to prepare you to make you university is to prepare you to make you university is to prepare you to make you into a great human being into a great into a great human being into a great into a great human being into a great leader that can take on the problems of leader that can take on the problems of leader that can take on the problems of the world correct and you don't do it by the world correct and you don't do it by the world correct and you don't do it by by treating you like like a little by treating you like like a little by treating you like like a little flower but what role does the University flower but what role does the University flower but what role does the University have to protect students to women have to protect students to women have to protect students to women African-Americans African-Americans African-Americans anybody Jews anybody who gets killed you anybody Jews anybody who gets killed you anybody Jews anybody who gets killed you could be a victim of hate speech they could be a victim of hate speech they could be a victim of hate speech they they protect you from physical assault they protect you from physical assault they protect you from physical assault if somebody physically assaults you if somebody physically assaults you if somebody physically assaults you then they um they get punished but they then they um they get punished but they then they um they get punished but they shouldn't and so they shouldn't protect shouldn't and so they shouldn't protect shouldn't and so they shouldn't protect you against insult you against insult you against insult because that is a violation of academic because that is a violation of academic because that is a violation of academic freedom the freedom of the insulter to freedom the freedom of the insulter to freedom the freedom of the insulter to insult you and also as I said it's very insult you and also as I said it's very insult you and also as I said it's very useful to know who doesn't like you it's useful to know who doesn't like you it's useful to know who doesn't like you it's useful for the so-called victim I think useful for the so-called victim I think useful for the so-called victim I think is to said I want to know who doesn't is to said I want to know who doesn't is to said I want to know who doesn't like me it's as important to me as like me it's as important to me as like me it's as important to me as knowing who who likes me but do you also knowing who who likes me but do you also knowing who who likes me but do you also believe in this open uh space of believe in this open uh space of believe in this open uh space of discourse that the insulter will discourse that the insulter will discourse that the insulter will eventually lose eventually lose eventually lose I think that's true I think of the I think that's true I think of the I think that's true I think of the insult or eventually insult or eventually insult or eventually will wear out his or her welcome will wear out his or her welcome will wear out his or her welcome um I do but I I like to know who the um I do but I I like to know who the um I do but I I like to know who the insultism insultism insultism because it gives you a deeper because it gives you a deeper because it gives you a deeper understanding of human nature yeah and understanding of human nature yeah and understanding of human nature yeah and and usually by the way my experience has and usually by the way my experience has and usually by the way my experience has been that the insulters have generally been that the insulters have generally been that the insulters have generally not been as smart as the people they've not been as smart as the people they've not been as smart as the people they've insulted yeah and that's probably one of insulted yeah and that's probably one of insulted yeah and that's probably one of the reasons they insult them because the reasons they insult them because the reasons they insult them because they're if they feel inferior yeah I

they're if they feel inferior yeah I they're if they feel inferior yeah I mean I'm not trying to be a a a mean I'm not trying to be a a a mean I'm not trying to be a a a psychoanalyst here but a lot of the psychoanalyst here but a lot of the psychoanalyst here but a lot of the people who were the haters are pretty people who were the haters are pretty people who were the haters are pretty low down in the intellectual scale low down in the intellectual scale low down in the intellectual scale anyway 95 of administration you would anyway 95 of administration you would anyway 95 of administration you would fire your calling to fire fire your calling to fire fire your calling to fire 95 of the administration people should 95 of the administration people should 95 of the administration people should know I think know I think know I think people that don't really think about the people that don't really think about the people that don't really think about the structure the way the universities work structure the way the universities work structure the way the universities work are not are not are not familiar I think with the fact that familiar I think with the fact that familiar I think with the fact that Administration there's a huge bloat of Administration there's a huge bloat of Administration there's a huge bloat of administration you know when you think administration you know when you think administration you know when you think about what makes a great University it's about what makes a great University it's about what makes a great University it's about the students it's about the about the students it's about the about the students it's about the faculty it's about the people that do faculty it's about the people that do faculty it's about the people that do research if it's a research University research if it's a research University research if it's a research University they don't think about the bureaucracy they don't think about the bureaucracy they don't think about the bureaucracy of meetings and committees and rules and of meetings and committees and rules and of meetings and committees and rules and paperwork and all that and all the paperwork and all that and all the paperwork and all that and all the people that are involved with pushing people that are involved with pushing people that are involved with pushing that kind of paper and there's a huge that kind of paper and there's a huge that kind of paper and there's a huge cost to that but it also slows down and cost to that but it also slows down and cost to that but it also slows down and suppresses the the beautiful variety suppresses the the beautiful variety suppresses the the beautiful variety that makes the university great which is that makes the university great which is that makes the university great which is the teaching the Student Life the the teaching the Student Life the the teaching the Student Life the protests the the the protests the the the protests the the the um the clubs all the fun that you can um the clubs all the fun that you can um the clubs all the fun that you can have at University all the very kind of have at University all the very kind of have at University all the very kind of exploration which you can't really do exploration which you can't really do exploration which you can't really do once you graduate correct it's the place once you graduate correct it's the place once you graduate correct it's the place the university is a place to really the university is a place to really the university is a place to really explore explore explore in every single way in every single way in every single way so let me just talk about this important so let me just talk about this important so let me just talk about this important thing because uh I'm very fortunate to thing because uh I'm very fortunate to thing because uh I'm very fortunate to have contacted you have contacted you have contacted you almost by accident in a very important

almost by accident in a very important almost by accident in a very important moment in your life you're running for moment in your life you're running for moment in your life you're running for the Harvard Board of overseers uh what the Harvard Board of overseers uh what the Harvard Board of overseers uh what is this board how much power does it is this board how much power does it is this board how much power does it have have have uh and what would you do if elected okay uh and what would you do if elected okay uh and what would you do if elected okay first of all I have a I have a first of all I have a I have a first of all I have a I have a prediction yes that in about five years prediction yes that in about five years prediction yes that in about five years they're gonna probably change the name they're gonna probably change the name they're gonna probably change the name because overseer is reminds people of because overseer is reminds people of because overseer is reminds people of the slavery or yes and we're in a such a the slavery or yes and we're in a such a the slavery or yes and we're in a such a politically correct era now that the politically correct era now that the politically correct era now that the English language is being restricted English language is being restricted English language is being restricted corrupted is the way I put it because corrupted is the way I put it because corrupted is the way I put it because certain words are uh are forbidden we we certain words are uh are forbidden we we certain words are uh are forbidden we we have some problems in this country and I have some problems in this country and I have some problems in this country and I think part of the problem is the think part of the problem is the think part of the problem is the educational system educational system educational system has lost a sense of what academic has lost a sense of what academic has lost a sense of what academic freedom and Free Speech were all about freedom and Free Speech were all about freedom and Free Speech were all about and um and and and um and and and um and and um I think it's essential that the um I think it's essential that the um I think it's essential that the educational system begin to take more educational system begin to take more educational system begin to take more seriously what Free Speech you know seriously what Free Speech you know seriously what Free Speech you know they're feeling really are that's why they're feeling really are that's why they're feeling really are that's why I'm running for the Harvard Board of I'm running for the Harvard Board of I'm running for the Harvard Board of overseers so let me just link on the overseers so let me just link on the overseers so let me just link on the uh the role of the administration in uh the role of the administration in uh the role of the administration in protecting free speech so what often protecting free speech so what often protecting free speech so what often happens I think you've written about happens I think you've written about happens I think you've written about this is there's going to be a few maybe this is there's going to be a few maybe this is there's going to be a few maybe a small number of hypersensitive a small number of hypersensitive a small number of hypersensitive students and faculty that protests so students and faculty that protests so students and faculty that protests so how does Harvard Administration how does Harvard Administration how does Harvard Administration uh resist the influence of those uh resist the influence of those uh resist the influence of those hypersensitive protesters in protecting hypersensitive protesters in protecting hypersensitive protesters in protecting uh Speech and protecting even hate uh Speech and protecting even hate uh Speech and protecting even hate speech speech speech Harvard has done fairly well under the

Harvard has done fairly well under the Harvard has done fairly well under the presidency of Lawrence back how presidency of Lawrence back how presidency of Lawrence back how I have had a couple of meetings with I have had a couple of meetings with I have had a couple of meetings with backho backho backho um I like back how um I like back how um I like back how I have donated to Harvard a prince of my I have donated to Harvard a prince of my I have donated to Harvard a prince of my Lake but my late wife took a picture of Lake but my late wife took a picture of Lake but my late wife took a picture of Bob Dylan and Alan Ginsberg when the Bob Dylan and Alan Ginsberg when the Bob Dylan and Alan Ginsberg when the Rolling Thunder review got to Harvard Rolling Thunder review got to Harvard Rolling Thunder review got to Harvard Square Square Square and it's a it's sort of an iconic and it's a it's sort of an iconic and it's a it's sort of an iconic photograph she called it the music photograph she called it the music photograph she called it the music lesson because it's got Dylan teaching lesson because it's got Dylan teaching lesson because it's got Dylan teaching Ginsburg how to play the guitar Ginsburg how to play the guitar Ginsburg how to play the guitar and I donated one of those to Harvard and I donated one of those to Harvard and I donated one of those to Harvard it's hanging in back House Office it's hanging in back House Office it's hanging in back House Office he the new president he the new president he the new president Claudine gay is not known for respecting Claudine gay is not known for respecting Claudine gay is not known for respecting academic freedom and Free Speech people academic freedom and Free Speech people academic freedom and Free Speech people have said to me well give her a chance have said to me well give her a chance have said to me well give her a chance well I'm willing to give her a chance well I'm willing to give her a chance well I'm willing to give her a chance but she does have a record but she does have a record but she does have a record and she's a bureaucrat and she's a bureaucrat and she's a bureaucrat um I don't think she believes in free um I don't think she believes in free um I don't think she believes in free speech and academic freedom I think speech and academic freedom I think speech and academic freedom I think she's a progressive not a liberal she's a progressive not a liberal she's a progressive not a liberal um I'm not happy with the the uh the the um I'm not happy with the the uh the the um I'm not happy with the the uh the the the the appointment of Claudine gay and the the appointment of Claudine gay and the the appointment of Claudine gay and it has made more essential my attempt to it has made more essential my attempt to it has made more essential my attempt to get on the board of overseers get on the board of overseers get on the board of overseers so let's talk about the board of so let's talk about the board of so let's talk about the board of overseers and uh your run for it the overseers and uh your run for it the overseers and uh your run for it the specifics actually it will be it'd be specifics actually it will be it'd be specifics actually it will be it'd be nice because I think you're a writing nice because I think you're a writing nice because I think you're a writing candidate candidate candidate and the election is over on May 16th uh

and the election is over on May 16th uh and the election is over on May 16th uh yes and I think there's specifics I'll yes and I think there's specifics I'll yes and I think there's specifics I'll probably give them in the intro I'll probably give them in the intro I'll probably give them in the intro I'll give links to people but the specifics give links to people but the specifics give links to people but the specifics are complicated let me just mention are complicated let me just mention are complicated let me just mention that you have to be Harvard alumni so that you have to be Harvard alumni so that you have to be Harvard alumni so I've graduated from Harvard you have to I've graduated from Harvard you have to I've graduated from Harvard you have to in order to run in order to vote in in order to run in order to vote in in order to run in order to vote in order to vote and the process I imagine order to vote and the process I imagine order to vote and the process I imagine is not trivial but uh is not trivial but uh is not trivial but uh it this is done online and if you're an it this is done online and if you're an it this is done online and if you're an alumni you should have received an email alumni you should have received an email alumni you should have received an email from a particular email address from a particular email address from a particular email address harvard.mg harvard.mg harvard.mg electionservicescorp.com and uh electionservicescorp.com and uh electionservicescorp.com and uh presumably there's a way to get some presumably there's a way to get some presumably there's a way to get some validation number from that email and validation number from that email and validation number from that email and then you go online you enter that then you go online you enter that then you go online you enter that validation number and you vote and you validation number and you vote and you validation number and you vote and you to vote for Harvey you have to enter his to vote for Harvey you have to enter his to vote for Harvey you have to enter his name name name correctly Harvey silverglate and spell correctly Harvey silverglate and spell correctly Harvey silverglate and spell it correctly it correctly it correctly um obviously I'm imagining this because um obviously I'm imagining this because um obviously I'm imagining this because I'm MIT not Harvard so I'm imagining the I'm MIT not Harvard so I'm imagining the I'm MIT not Harvard so I'm imagining the process is not trivial because you have process is not trivial because you have process is not trivial because you have to click on things you have to uh to click on things you have to uh to click on things you have to uh uh sort of follow instructions that are uh sort of follow instructions that are uh sort of follow instructions that are not uh trivial and uh I'll also provide not uh trivial and uh I'll also provide not uh trivial and uh I'll also provide an email if the process is painful it an email if the process is painful it an email if the process is painful it doesn't work for you that you can email doesn't work for you that you can email doesn't work for you that you can email email Harvard and complain I.T help email Harvard and complain I.T help email Harvard and complain I.T help harvard.edu and so on I'll provide all harvard.edu and so on I'll provide all harvard.edu and so on I'll provide all the links but is there something else the links but is there something else the links but is there something else you can say about the voting process uh you can say about the voting process uh you can say about the voting process uh what you're running on this is my second what you're running on this is my second what you're running on this is my second run run run the first time I got enough signatures

the first time I got enough signatures the first time I got enough signatures to get on the ballot then the Harvard to get on the ballot then the Harvard to get on the ballot then the Harvard Alumni Association sent out a letter Alumni Association sent out a letter Alumni Association sent out a letter to all living Harvard alums to all living Harvard alums to all living Harvard alums recommending that they vote for the recommending that they vote for the recommending that they vote for the officially nominated candidates officially nominated candidates officially nominated candidates that excluded two petition candidates of that excluded two petition candidates of that excluded two petition candidates of whom I was one whom I was one whom I was one and um and um and um I wrote to the Alumni Association and I I wrote to the Alumni Association and I I wrote to the Alumni Association and I said said said you have now sent out the curriculum you have now sent out the curriculum you have now sent out the curriculum vitais and the policy positions of all vitais and the policy positions of all vitais and the policy positions of all the officially nominated candidates the officially nominated candidates the officially nominated candidates there are two petition candidates on the there are two petition candidates on the there are two petition candidates on the ballot ballot ballot I would like to be able to send out my I would like to be able to send out my I would like to be able to send out my positions positions positions to the voters to the voters to the voters they wrote me back saying our policy is they wrote me back saying our policy is they wrote me back saying our policy is to only send out the policy positions to only send out the policy positions to only send out the policy positions and the platforms of officially and the platforms of officially and the platforms of officially nominated candidates can you believe nominated candidates can you believe nominated candidates can you believe that that that well this is a liberal arts college well this is a liberal arts college well this is a liberal arts college right right right um from the where from The Clash of um from the where from The Clash of um from the where from The Clash of ideas truth emerges well really ideas truth emerges well really ideas truth emerges well really this is what I call Harvard's not so this is what I call Harvard's not so this is what I call Harvard's not so subtle means of candidate suppression subtle means of candidate suppression subtle means of candidate suppression not voter suppression candidate not voter suppression candidate not voter suppression candidate suppression suppression suppression and um and um and um everybody can vote but not everybody can everybody can vote but not everybody can everybody can vote but not everybody can run run run it is ill becomes a liberal arts college

it is ill becomes a liberal arts college it is ill becomes a liberal arts college where you know the Clash of ideas will where you know the Clash of ideas will where you know the Clash of ideas will produce the truth will worry about the produce the truth will worry about the produce the truth will worry about the class of ideas on the board of overseers class of ideas on the board of overseers class of ideas on the board of overseers the board of overses is important it the board of overses is important it the board of overses is important it doesn't have the same power and doesn't have the same power and doesn't have the same power and authority as the Harvard Corporation the authority as the Harvard Corporation the authority as the Harvard Corporation the so-called president and fellows of so-called president and fellows of so-called president and fellows of Harvard College but it's very Harvard College but it's very Harvard College but it's very influential influential influential and very important and it would be a and very important and it would be a and very important and it would be a great perch for me to try to exert great perch for me to try to exert great perch for me to try to exert influence for the University to get back influence for the University to get back influence for the University to get back to where it was before it was taken over to where it was before it was taken over to where it was before it was taken over by the administrators well I'm pretty by the administrators well I'm pretty by the administrators well I'm pretty sure that most of Harvard alumni most sure that most of Harvard alumni most sure that most of Harvard alumni most the students currently going to Harvard the students currently going to Harvard the students currently going to Harvard most The Faculty at Harvard probably most The Faculty at Harvard probably most The Faculty at Harvard probably stand behind that ideas and the ideals stand behind that ideas and the ideals stand behind that ideas and the ideals that you stand behind yep that you stand behind yep that you stand behind yep the the people that love Harvard and the the people that love Harvard and the the people that love Harvard and what it stands for so yeah the alumni what it stands for so yeah the alumni what it stands for so yeah the alumni were educated in an era when these were educated in an era when these were educated in an era when these Concepts were taken seriously and before Concepts were taken seriously and before Concepts were taken seriously and before the administration's administrators took the administration's administrators took the administration's administrators took over over over so I do think if I get my message out so I do think if I get my message out so I do think if I get my message out I'm going to win the seat and if I win a I'm going to win the seat and if I win a I'm going to win the seat and if I win a seat I will have a great perch for for seat I will have a great perch for for seat I will have a great perch for for trying to convince the real power that trying to convince the real power that trying to convince the real power that be which is the Harvard Corporation be which is the Harvard Corporation be which is the Harvard Corporation to do the things that I'm suggesting you to do the things that I'm suggesting you to do the things that I'm suggesting you know get rid of 95 of the administrators know get rid of 95 of the administrators know get rid of 95 of the administrators get rid of the speech codes reduce get rid of the speech codes reduce get rid of the speech codes reduce tuition by 40 percent tuition by 40 percent tuition by 40 percent all of these salutary benefits uh all of these salutary benefits uh all of these salutary benefits uh can you imagine if Harvard became the can you imagine if Harvard became the can you imagine if Harvard became the most affordable college in the United most affordable college in the United most affordable college in the United States States States well the affordability is another aspect

well the affordability is another aspect well the affordability is another aspect but I think before that the just the but I think before that the just the but I think before that the just the freedom of expression freedom of speech freedom of expression freedom of speech freedom of expression freedom of speech freedom of thought yeah it's America's freedom of thought yeah it's America's freedom of thought yeah it's America's greatest universities I think is greatest universities I think is greatest universities I think is something that everybody would agree on something that everybody would agree on something that everybody would agree on it would have a it would have a a it would have a it would have a a it would have a it would have a a tremendous effect on the whole country and uh is there something to say about and uh is there something to say about the details of how difficult it is for the details of how difficult it is for the details of how difficult it is for alumni to vote without experience with alumni to vote without experience with alumni to vote without experience with this you could vote online or you can this you could vote online or you can this you could vote online or you can vote by paper ballot you could request vote by paper ballot you could request vote by paper ballot you could request the paper ballot the paper ballot the paper ballot um and all I could say is that the the um and all I could say is that the the um and all I could say is that the the hard part is getting the message out hard part is getting the message out hard part is getting the message out um my name doesn't appear on the ballot um my name doesn't appear on the ballot um my name doesn't appear on the ballot because I couldn't get enough signatures because I couldn't get enough signatures because I couldn't get enough signatures um well Harvey Harvey silverglate um well Harvey Harvey silverglate um well Harvey Harvey silverglate s-i-l-v-e-r-g-l-a-t you know when my s-i-l-v-e-r-g-l-a-t you know when my s-i-l-v-e-r-g-l-a-t you know when my grandparents arrived from Russia grandparents arrived from Russia grandparents arrived from Russia um the uh the the the name in Russian um the uh the the the name in Russian um the uh the the the name in Russian was something like zilba glyph yeah and was something like zilba glyph yeah and was something like zilba glyph yeah and the immigration officer had several the immigration officer had several the immigration officer had several choices choices choices he could have said Sylvia gate yeah gate he could have said Sylvia gate yeah gate he could have said Sylvia gate yeah gate is a real silver and gate are real is a real silver and gate are real is a real silver and gate are real English words yeah he could have said English words yeah he could have said English words yeah he could have said silver Glade g-l-a-d-e those are real silver Glade g-l-a-d-e those are real silver Glade g-l-a-d-e those are real English words that's how my name is English words that's how my name is English words that's how my name is often the spelled neither Silver Gate or often the spelled neither Silver Gate or often the spelled neither Silver Gate or silver Glade silver Glade is a nonsense silver Glade silver Glade is a nonsense silver Glade silver Glade is a nonsense syllable syllable syllable and why the immigration officer chose to and why the immigration officer chose to and why the immigration officer chose to transliterate transliterate transliterate silverglid as silverglade I'll never

silverglid as silverglade I'll never silverglid as silverglade I'll never understand and it is the cause of understand and it is the cause of understand and it is the cause of endless mistakes in my name well the the endless mistakes in my name well the the endless mistakes in my name well the the fundamental absurdity of life yes is fundamental absurdity of life yes is fundamental absurdity of life yes is also the source of his Beauty yes anyway also the source of his Beauty yes anyway also the source of his Beauty yes anyway we shall spell it out and we shall get we shall spell it out and we shall get we shall spell it out and we shall get uh yell loud and wide that everybody who uh yell loud and wide that everybody who uh yell loud and wide that everybody who has ever graduated from Harvard should has ever graduated from Harvard should has ever graduated from Harvard should vote for you if they believe in the vote for you if they believe in the vote for you if they believe in the ideals of the Great American ideals of the Great American ideals of the Great American universities which I think most people universities which I think most people universities which I think most people do let me also ask about uh diversity let me also ask about uh diversity inclusion and Equity programs you've inclusion and Equity programs you've inclusion and Equity programs you've been you've had a few harsh words to say been you've had a few harsh words to say been you've had a few harsh words to say about those you know the idea of about those you know the idea of about those you know the idea of diversity I think is a beautiful idea uh diversity I think is a beautiful idea uh diversity I think is a beautiful idea uh you've said that Harvard's idea of you've said that Harvard's idea of you've said that Harvard's idea of diversity is for everyone to look diversity is for everyone to look diversity is for everyone to look different and think alike correct can different and think alike correct can different and think alike correct can you elaborate and be comfortable and be you elaborate and be comfortable and be you elaborate and be comfortable and be comfortable yeah first of all it is comfortable yeah first of all it is comfortable yeah first of all it is impossible if liberal laws education is impossible if liberal laws education is impossible if liberal laws education is taken seriously it's impossible for taken seriously it's impossible for taken seriously it's impossible for students to feel comfortable why because students to feel comfortable why because students to feel comfortable why because one of the roles of college is to one of the roles of college is to one of the roles of college is to challenge all the beliefs that they grew challenge all the beliefs that they grew challenge all the beliefs that they grew up with which mostly are the beliefs up with which mostly are the beliefs up with which mostly are the beliefs inculcated by parents and by Elementary inculcated by parents and by Elementary inculcated by parents and by Elementary School teachers School teachers School teachers and the idea is to be able to challenge and the idea is to be able to challenge and the idea is to be able to challenge those thoughts those ideas those thoughts those ideas those thoughts those ideas and if you don't have free speech and and if you don't have free speech and and if you don't have free speech and academic freedom those views get reified academic freedom those views get reified academic freedom those views get reified they do not get challenged they do not get challenged they do not get challenged so it's it is it it violates the

so it's it is it it violates the so it's it is it it violates the fundamental role of higher educational fundamental role of higher educational fundamental role of higher educational institutions to have any restrictions at institutions to have any restrictions at institutions to have any restrictions at all all all that that's number one that that's number one that that's number one number two as I think I said earlier if number two as I think I said earlier if number two as I think I said earlier if people students are not allowed to be people students are not allowed to be people students are not allowed to be frank with one another they don't really frank with one another they don't really frank with one another they don't really learn about one another learn about one another learn about one another uh and um uh you know I I've given a lot uh and um uh you know I I've given a lot uh and um uh you know I I've given a lot of lectures in which I have said and I of lectures in which I have said and I of lectures in which I have said and I think people students Now understand it think people students Now understand it think people students Now understand it I'm much more interested in hearing from I'm much more interested in hearing from I'm much more interested in hearing from the people who Haven and the people who the people who Haven and the people who the people who Haven and the people who love me love me love me I'm much more interested in knowing who I'm much more interested in knowing who I'm much more interested in knowing who disagrees with it and people who agree disagrees with it and people who agree disagrees with it and people who agree with me with me with me that's how I learn and that's how they that's how I learn and that's how they that's how I learn and that's how they learn learn learn The Clash of ideas The Clash of ideas The Clash of ideas which is the theory behind the First which is the theory behind the First which is the theory behind the First Amendment Amendment Amendment that truth will somehow emerge or if not that truth will somehow emerge or if not that truth will somehow emerge or if not Truth at least a better truth a true Truth at least a better truth a true Truth at least a better truth a true truth a more useful truth if ideas are truth a more useful truth if ideas are truth a more useful truth if ideas are allowed to Clash especially in the allowed to Clash especially in the allowed to Clash especially in the structure of a university where at least structure of a university where at least structure of a university where at least I would say there's some set of rules I would say there's some set of rules I would say there's some set of rules some set of Civility I think I would some set of Civility I think I would some set of Civility I think I would rather read mineconf rather read mineconf rather read mineconf to understand people that hate there is to understand people that hate there is to understand people that hate there is also quality uh to disagreement that we also quality uh to disagreement that we also quality uh to disagreement that we should strive for and I think a should strive for and I think a should strive for and I think a university is a place where when uh university is a place where when uh university is a place where when uh disagreement and even hate is allowed disagreement and even hate is allowed disagreement and even hate is allowed it's done in a high effort way you know

it's done in a high effort way you know it's done in a high effort way you know somebody asked me once about what books somebody asked me once about what books somebody asked me once about what books I would what I have is required reading I would what I have is required reading I would what I have is required reading in in literature courses and I listed my in in literature courses and I listed my in in literature courses and I listed my account account account and they were horrified and I said well and they were horrified and I said well and they were horrified and I said well it's one of the most important books of it's one of the most important books of it's one of the most important books of the 20th century yeah I mean six million the 20th century yeah I mean six million the 20th century yeah I mean six million Jews died an enormous number of other Jews died an enormous number of other Jews died an enormous number of other people died because one guy wrote a book people died because one guy wrote a book people died because one guy wrote a book called mineconf and took it seriously called mineconf and took it seriously called mineconf and took it seriously it's one of the most important books it's one of the most important books it's one of the most important books ever written how can how can an educated ever written how can how can an educated ever written how can how can an educated person not have at least breezed through person not have at least breezed through person not have at least breezed through Mein Kampf and um it's not a great read Mein Kampf and um it's not a great read Mein Kampf and um it's not a great read though it's not a great read he was not though it's not a great read he was not though it's not a great read he was not a great writer but you you do get a a great writer but you you do get a a great writer but you you do get a sense for the the sociopath that was sense for the the sociopath that was sense for the the sociopath that was Adolf Hitler yes because he really acted Adolf Hitler yes because he really acted Adolf Hitler yes because he really acted on the words that he wrote yeah on the words that he wrote yeah on the words that he wrote yeah and it was there and if people took that and it was there and if people took that and it was there and if people took that work seriously correct they they would work seriously correct they they would work seriously correct they they would have understood it's one of the most have understood it's one of the most have understood it's one of the most important books of the 20th century and important books of the 20th century and important books of the 20th century and if it's Politically Incorrect to read it if it's Politically Incorrect to read it if it's Politically Incorrect to read it crazy crazy crazy but can you uh speak to the but can you uh speak to the but can you uh speak to the um um um the efforts to increase diversity in the efforts to increase diversity in the efforts to increase diversity in universities which I think is embodied universities which I think is embodied universities which I think is embodied in this die effort of diversity in this die effort of diversity in this die effort of diversity inclusion and Equity programs where do inclusion and Equity programs where do inclusion and Equity programs where do they go right where did do they go wrong they go right where did do they go wrong they go right where did do they go wrong okay let me tell you first of all this okay let me tell you first of all this okay let me tell you first of all this may surprise a lot of people may surprise a lot of people may surprise a lot of people I am opposed to affirmative action

um and I think that um and I think that um what it does is it um what it does is it um what it does is it labels people by their race labels people by their race labels people by their race by their religion and by their national by their religion and by their national by their religion and by their national origin origin origin precisely what we don't want people to precisely what we don't want people to precisely what we don't want people to do is be pigeonholed in those categories do is be pigeonholed in those categories do is be pigeonholed in those categories the reason that affirmative action has the reason that affirmative action has the reason that affirmative action has become the way that universities decide become the way that universities decide become the way that universities decide on who gets admitted on who gets admitted on who gets admitted is because historically people in what's is because historically people in what's is because historically people in what's called marginalized groups called marginalized groups called marginalized groups blacks gays Hispanics blacks gays Hispanics blacks gays Hispanics have been discriminated against in the have been discriminated against in the have been discriminated against in the admissions process admissions process admissions process now now now what I have suggested what I have suggested what I have suggested is that instead of affirmative action is that instead of affirmative action is that instead of affirmative action and by the way and by the way and by the way here's a prediction the Supreme Court is here's a prediction the Supreme Court is here's a prediction the Supreme Court is going to abolish affirmative action going to abolish affirmative action going to abolish affirmative action there's a case penis Harvin case um it's the there's a there are two um it's the there's a there are two cases joined together one of a public cases joined together one of a public cases joined together one of a public university and one of a private university and one of a private university and one of a private universities the private university is universities the private university is universities the private university is Harvard Harvard Harvard uh I I predict that the Supreme Court uh I I predict that the Supreme Court uh I I predict that the Supreme Court will vote six to three to abolish will vote six to three to abolish will vote six to three to abolish affirmative action affirmative action affirmative action it is on its face it is a violation of it is on its face it is a violation of it is on its face it is a violation of equal protection of the law equal protection of the law equal protection of the law some groups are favored because of race some groups are favored because of race some groups are favored because of race or ethnicity it is a classic violation or ethnicity it is a classic violation or ethnicity it is a classic violation of equal protection clause of equal protection clause of equal protection clause when affirmative action was approved

when affirmative action was approved when affirmative action was approved this deciding vote was just the Sandra this deciding vote was just the Sandra this deciding vote was just the Sandra Day O'Connor she wrote a very famous Day O'Connor she wrote a very famous Day O'Connor she wrote a very famous opinion in which she said opinion in which she said opinion in which she said I am hesitate to vote to up to keep up I am hesitate to vote to up to keep up I am hesitate to vote to up to keep up there to affirm the notion of there to affirm the notion of there to affirm the notion of affirmative action because it's such an affirmative action because it's such an affirmative action because it's such an obvious violation of equal protection obvious violation of equal protection obvious violation of equal protection but we have an urgent problem in the but we have an urgent problem in the but we have an urgent problem in the society we are not educating our um society we are not educating our um society we are not educating our um members of racial ethnic minorities and members of racial ethnic minorities and members of racial ethnic minorities and we have to try to get them into colleges we have to try to get them into colleges we have to try to get them into colleges um so I'm I think it should be approved um so I'm I think it should be approved um so I'm I think it should be approved for 25 years for 25 years for 25 years um um um and um it will uh it should be it should and um it will uh it should be it should and um it will uh it should be it should in 25 years they should have performed in 25 years they should have performed in 25 years they should have performed this role well it hasn't and um the 25 this role well it hasn't and um the 25 this role well it hasn't and um the 25 years is coming up I think it's for years is coming up I think it's for years is coming up I think it's for three or four years left three or four years left three or four years left the Supreme Court is going to abolish it the Supreme Court is going to abolish it the Supreme Court is going to abolish it you can take my word for them you can take my word for them you can take my word for them because it's such an obvious violation because it's such an obvious violation because it's such an obvious violation of equal protection of equal protection of equal protection why do why did affirmative action come why do why did affirmative action come why do why did affirmative action come into play into play into play because the secondary and elementary because the secondary and elementary because the secondary and elementary schools are so bad schools are so bad schools are so bad public secondary in elementary schools public secondary in elementary schools public secondary in elementary schools are so bad are so bad are so bad why are they so bad partly because of why are they so bad partly because of why are they so bad partly because of the control of the teachers union the control of the teachers union the control of the teachers union has Randy Weingarten runs the public has Randy Weingarten runs the public has Randy Weingarten runs the public school system in the United States school system in the United States school system in the United States and what I have suggested and what I have suggested and what I have suggested is that is that is that the effort should be

the effort should be the effort should be to uh this is an emergency it's a to uh this is an emergency it's a to uh this is an emergency it's a national emergency national emergency national emergency to improve to improve to improve the quality of Elementary and secondary the quality of Elementary and secondary the quality of Elementary and secondary education education education and one way to do it is to hire teachers and one way to do it is to hire teachers and one way to do it is to hire teachers who are fabulous teachers rather than who are fabulous teachers rather than who are fabulous teachers rather than necessarily members of the Union necessarily members of the Union necessarily members of the Union I have come to oppose I have come to oppose I have come to oppose public workers unions I am a very strong public workers unions I am a very strong public workers unions I am a very strong supporter of unions in the private supporter of unions in the private supporter of unions in the private sector sector sector why do I think there's such a difference why do I think there's such a difference why do I think there's such a difference between unions in the public sector and between unions in the public sector and between unions in the public sector and the private sector the private sector the private sector in the private sector management is in the private sector management is in the private sector management is arguing arguing arguing bargaining with its own money and with bargaining with its own money and with bargaining with its own money and with the money of shareholders the money of shareholders the money of shareholders in the public sector there's only one in the public sector there's only one in the public sector there's only one side side side there is the teachers union and then there is the teachers union and then there is the teachers union and then there's a school committee that is there's a school committee that is there's a school committee that is dealing with the taxpayers money not dealing with the taxpayers money not dealing with the taxpayers money not their room and so it's a very skewed their room and so it's a very skewed their room and so it's a very skewed Power Balance Power Balance Power Balance so so so as supportive as I am of private sector as supportive as I am of private sector as supportive as I am of private sector unions I am an opposition of Public unions I am an opposition of Public unions I am an opposition of Public Safety unions they're very destructive Safety unions they're very destructive Safety unions they're very destructive and I think without the teachers union and I think without the teachers union and I think without the teachers union teachers who are really skilled will be teachers who are really skilled will be teachers who are really skilled will be able to get jobs they would not have to able to get jobs they would not have to able to get jobs they would not have to worry about the seniority of teachers worry about the seniority of teachers worry about the seniority of teachers who long since have given up really

who long since have given up really who long since have given up really creative creative creative teaching teaching teaching and we have to improve the public and we have to improve the public and we have to improve the public educational system educational system educational system I had um in my late wife and I I had um in my late wife and I I had um in my late wife and I um uh had a classmate of we have a son um uh had a classmate of we have a son um uh had a classmate of we have a son who's Now 44 who went to the public who's Now 44 who went to the public who's Now 44 who went to the public schools in Cambridge schools in Cambridge schools in Cambridge um he has a friend um he has a friend um he has a friend first name Eugene first name Eugene first name Eugene who was black kid from Roxbury whose who was black kid from Roxbury whose who was black kid from Roxbury whose mother understood that the schools in mother understood that the schools in mother understood that the schools in Roxbury were terrible the schools in Roxbury were terrible the schools in Roxbury were terrible the schools in Cambridge were pretty good Cambridge were pretty good Cambridge were pretty good he lived in our house Monday to Friday and he went to school Monday to Friday and he went to school with Isaac in the Cambridge Public with Isaac in the Cambridge Public with Isaac in the Cambridge Public Schools Schools Schools elsewhere and I would show up the school elsewhere and I would show up the school elsewhere and I would show up the school committee meetings when there was committee meetings when there was committee meetings when there was bargaining between the teachers union bargaining between the teachers union bargaining between the teachers union and the school committee and the school committee and the school committee that teaches Union objected to our being that teaches Union objected to our being that teaches Union objected to our being there there there we argued we're taxpayers we have a a we argued we're taxpayers we have a a we argued we're taxpayers we have a a kid in the school and we have his best kid in the school and we have his best kid in the school and we have his best friend lives with us friend lives with us friend lives with us and goes to school with them and goes to school with them and goes to school with them we have a real interest we have a real interest we have a real interest and the school committee and the school committee and the school committee walked out of the bargaining session walked out of the bargaining session walked out of the bargaining session the city council then reconsidered his the city council then reconsidered his the city council then reconsidered his vote and they voted that we that vote and they voted that we that vote and they voted that we that citizens citizens citizens taxpayers parents of kids in the school taxpayers parents of kids in the school taxpayers parents of kids in the school could not show up

could not show up could not show up to these negotiation sessions to these negotiation sessions to these negotiation sessions I thought that was absolutely outrageous I thought that was absolutely outrageous I thought that was absolutely outrageous but I understood why because these but I understood why because these but I understood why because these contracts are crazy contracts are crazy contracts are crazy no sane municipality no sane municipality no sane municipality should enter into some of these should enter into some of these should enter into some of these contracts contracts contracts um and um so I am I have become an um and um so I am I have become an um and um so I am I have become an opponent of the national Teachers opponent of the national Teachers opponent of the national Teachers Association the Cambridge teaching a lot Association the Cambridge teaching a lot Association the Cambridge teaching a lot okay with Teachers Association okay with Teachers Association okay with Teachers Association I don't think there should be unions for I don't think there should be unions for I don't think there should be unions for public employees public employees public employees because there's no real bargaining going because there's no real bargaining going because there's no real bargaining going on on on and um I think that the public school and um I think that the public school and um I think that the public school system will never be improved as long as system will never be improved as long as system will never be improved as long as the the the teachers are unionized the the the teachers are unionized the the the teachers are unionized so that to you as at the core of the so that to you as at the core of the so that to you as at the core of the problem that results in the kind of problem that results in the kind of problem that results in the kind of inequality of opportunity that inequality of opportunity that inequality of opportunity that affirmative action is designed to solve affirmative action is designed to solve affirmative action is designed to solve so if you if the educational system in so if you if the educational system in so if you if the educational system in the Elementary and high school levels is the Elementary and high school levels is the Elementary and high school levels is improved we wouldn't need affirmative improved we wouldn't need affirmative improved we wouldn't need affirmative action these kids would get good action these kids would get good action these kids would get good educations educations educations so from all backgrounds so from all backgrounds so from all backgrounds poor kids in the United States will get poor kids in the United States will get poor kids in the United States will get good education if uh good education if uh good education if uh uh public unions are abolished correct uh public unions are abolished correct uh public unions are abolished correct and but do you mind incidentally the and but do you mind incidentally the and but do you mind incidentally the Postal Service would probably work Postal Service would probably work Postal Service would probably work better too better too better too that's a whole nother conversation but that's a whole nother conversation but that's a whole nother conversation but do you at the core of the problem of the

do you at the core of the problem of the do you at the core of the problem of the inequality in in universities inequality in in universities inequality in in universities that diversity inclusion and Equity that diversity inclusion and Equity that diversity inclusion and Equity programs are trying to solve is the programs are trying to solve is the programs are trying to solve is the public education system correct of public education system correct of public education system correct of secondary education yes correct secondary education yes correct secondary education yes correct Elementary and second Elementary and Elementary and second Elementary and Elementary and second Elementary and secondary education well then is there secondary education well then is there secondary education well then is there use what is the benefit what is the use what is the benefit what is the use what is the benefit what is the drawback of uh d i e diversity inclusion drawback of uh d i e diversity inclusion drawback of uh d i e diversity inclusion and Equity programs Universities at and Equity programs Universities at and Equity programs Universities at Harvard it's an affirmative action Harvard it's an affirmative action Harvard it's an affirmative action basically and what it does is it allows basically and what it does is it allows basically and what it does is it allows the system of Elementary and secondary the system of Elementary and secondary the system of Elementary and secondary education to be bad because they could education to be bad because they could education to be bad because they could say oh we got our kids into Harvard yes say oh we got our kids into Harvard yes say oh we got our kids into Harvard yes but you haven't educated them but you haven't educated them but you haven't educated them and it covers up the wound and it covers up the wound and it covers up the wound and I think it will never improve as and I think it will never improve as and I think it will never improve as long as we're able to cover up the wound long as we're able to cover up the wound long as we're able to cover up the wound and as I said affirmative action is and as I said affirmative action is and as I said affirmative action is going to be abolished by the Supreme going to be abolished by the Supreme going to be abolished by the Supreme Court Court Court it's a clear violation of equal it's a clear violation of equal it's a clear violation of equal protection there's what's Santa's Day protection there's what's Santa's Day protection there's what's Santa's Day O'Connor understood but ignored O'Connor understood but ignored O'Connor understood but ignored intentionally but as an experiment intentionally but as an experiment intentionally but as an experiment uh and um I believe it's going to be uh and um I believe it's going to be uh and um I believe it's going to be abolished that that's going to have abolished that that's going to have abolished that that's going to have that's going to force that's going to force that's going to force the Elementary and high schools to get the Elementary and high schools to get the Elementary and high schools to get serious serious serious do you see the same issues that you do you see the same issues that you do you see the same issues that you discussed now at Harvard uh at MIT we're discussed now at Harvard uh at MIT we're discussed now at Harvard uh at MIT we're here in Boston so I have to talk about here in Boston so I have to talk about here in Boston so I have to talk about the the great universities here in the the great universities here in the the great universities here in Boston you've written about MIT I'm uh Boston you've written about MIT I'm uh Boston you've written about MIT I'm uh the university I love I'm a research

the university I love I'm a research the university I love I'm a research scientist there do you see the same kind scientist there do you see the same kind scientist there do you see the same kind of issues there yes I do do you remember of issues there yes I do do you remember of issues there yes I do do you remember can you explain the case of Dorian can you explain the case of Dorian can you explain the case of Dorian Abbott lecture that was canceled at MIT Abbott lecture that was canceled at MIT Abbott lecture that was canceled at MIT yeah well you know it's this is this is yeah well you know it's this is this is yeah well you know it's this is this is not the only it's not the only incident not the only it's not the only incident not the only it's not the only incident um there have been incidents all around um there have been incidents all around um there have been incidents all around the country the country the country um of academics professors who have used um of academics professors who have used um of academics professors who have used the don't comport with the uh as the the don't comport with the uh as the the don't comport with the uh as the great Lillian Hellman another friend of great Lillian Hellman another friend of great Lillian Hellman another friend of my late wife my late wife my late wife said they they they said they they they said they they they she said she refused to cut her garments she said she refused to cut her garments she said she refused to cut her garments in order to fit the Fashions of the day in order to fit the Fashions of the day in order to fit the Fashions of the day um Dorian Abbott didn't cut his suit um um Dorian Abbott didn't cut his suit um um Dorian Abbott didn't cut his suit um to fit the Fashions of the day in his to fit the Fashions of the day in his to fit the Fashions of the day in his intellectual suit intellectual suit intellectual suit and so he was um this has happened at and so he was um this has happened at and so he was um this has happened at Princeton this has happened at Harvard Princeton this has happened at Harvard Princeton this has happened at Harvard this has happened at MIT this has happened at MIT this has happened at MIT the great universities in the country the great universities in the country the great universities in the country um have decided that the Clash of ideas um have decided that the Clash of ideas um have decided that the Clash of ideas is not such a good idea because some is not such a good idea because some is not such a good idea because some people's feelings will be heard people's feelings will be heard people's feelings will be heard well this is there was quite a revolt well this is there was quite a revolt well this is there was quite a revolt against it against it against it um fire um fire um fire sounded the alarm sounded the alarm sounded the alarm and then in the end the universities and then in the end the universities and then in the end the universities were I believe Abbott was invited to were I believe Abbott was invited to were I believe Abbott was invited to come back I think he turned him down come back I think he turned him down come back I think he turned him down he he shouldn't have turned him down but he he shouldn't have turned him down but he he shouldn't have turned him down but he did he did he did um and um when when the light is cast um and um when when the light is cast um and um when when the light is cast upon these situations the universities

upon these situations the universities upon these situations the universities back down because they're so embarrassed back down because they're so embarrassed back down because they're so embarrassed yeah yeah yeah um and the newspapers because newspapers um and the newspapers because newspapers um and the newspapers because newspapers depend on the First Amendment depend on the First Amendment depend on the First Amendment in order to exist newspapers tend to in order to exist newspapers tend to in order to exist newspapers tend to give pretty good publicity to these give pretty good publicity to these give pretty good publicity to these cases of censorship so they grow the cases of censorship so they grow the cases of censorship so they grow the universities yes so they they really universities yes so they they really universities yes so they they really emphasize they catalyze the emphasize they catalyze the emphasize they catalyze the embarrassment yes so is that one of the embarrassment yes so is that one of the embarrassment yes so is that one of the ways is that the best way to fight all ways is that the best way to fight all ways is that the best way to fight all of this yes sunshine is the best of this yes sunshine is the best of this yes sunshine is the best disinfectant uh you've written about disinfectant uh you've written about disinfectant uh you've written about mit's connection to Jeffrey Epstein yes mit's connection to Jeffrey Epstein yes mit's connection to Jeffrey Epstein yes he was well connected at MIT and at he was well connected at MIT and at he was well connected at MIT and at Harvard Harvard Harvard um what do you what lessons do you draw um what do you what lessons do you draw um what do you what lessons do you draw about human nature about universities about human nature about universities about human nature about universities about all this from from this Saga let about all this from from this Saga let about all this from from this Saga let me say this me say this me say this I believe that universities I believe that universities I believe that universities if somebody was to for example donate if somebody was to for example donate if somebody was to for example donate to a university and donates on the to a university and donates on the to a university and donates on the requirement that the building be named requirement that the building be named requirement that the building be named after them if the university is taking after them if the university is taking after them if the university is taking the donations and the person is funding the donations and the person is funding the donations and the person is funding a building the building should be named after him the building should be named after him or them Harvard is facing us now at the or them Harvard is facing us now at the or them Harvard is facing us now at the Sackler building because the sacklers Sackler building because the sacklers Sackler building because the sacklers had become now a persona non grata had become now a persona non grata had become now a persona non grata because of their role in producing the because of their role in producing the because of their role in producing the opioids that cause the huge opioids that cause the huge opioids that cause the huge scandalous opioid addiction scandalous opioid addiction scandalous opioid addiction there are people who want to have there are people who want to have there are people who want to have removed the name the Sackler from the removed the name the Sackler from the removed the name the Sackler from the Sackler Art Museum and however Sackler Art Museum and however Sackler Art Museum and however Larry bakhow the president of Harvard to

Larry bakhow the president of Harvard to Larry bakhow the president of Harvard to his credit his credit his credit has refused to to do that has refused to to do that has refused to to do that um and um if it reminds people that the um and um if it reminds people that the um and um if it reminds people that the money was earned through selling opioids money was earned through selling opioids money was earned through selling opioids that's good that's good that people that's good that's good that people that's good that's good that people understand that that's where the understand that that's where the understand that that's where the cyclists got their money they should be cyclists got their money they should be cyclists got their money they should be bonded in the mic in in my um uh bonded in the mic in in my um uh bonded in the mic in in my um uh undergraduate alma mater Princeton undergraduate alma mater Princeton undergraduate alma mater Princeton there's a movement to remove the name there's a movement to remove the name there's a movement to remove the name Woodrow Wilson Woodrow Wilson Woodrow Wilson because Wilson was president of because Wilson was president of because Wilson was president of Princeton before he became governor of Princeton before he became governor of Princeton before he became governor of New Jersey before he became president of New Jersey before he became president of New Jersey before he became president of states states states how he got to be Governor New Jersey was how he got to be Governor New Jersey was how he got to be Governor New Jersey was he was someone sufferable that the he was someone sufferable that the he was someone sufferable that the trustees of Princeton got an trustees of Princeton got an trustees of Princeton got an denomination to run for governor of New denomination to run for governor of New denomination to run for governor of New Jersey they had said we had to get this Jersey they had said we had to get this Jersey they had said we had to get this guy out of here guy out of here guy out of here um and um um and um um and um not because it was anti-black and not because it was anti-black and not because it was anti-black and anti-semitic because the trustees were anti-semitic because the trustees were anti-semitic because the trustees were as well but because he just was as well but because he just was as well but because he just was insufferable he drove the faculty crazy insufferable he drove the faculty crazy insufferable he drove the faculty crazy and they got him out and they got him out and they got him out um and um so Princeton was thinking of um and um so Princeton was thinking of um and um so Princeton was thinking of changing the name I wrote a letter to changing the name I wrote a letter to changing the name I wrote a letter to President Ice Prince saying you know the President Ice Prince saying you know the President Ice Prince saying you know the the this is part of the University's the this is part of the University's the this is part of the University's history you don't want to re you want to history you don't want to re you want to history you don't want to re you want to rewrite history falsely uh Woodrow rewrite history falsely uh Woodrow rewrite history falsely uh Woodrow Wilson was the president of this Wilson was the president of this Wilson was the president of this institution he was one of your institution he was one of your institution he was one of your predecessors he never answered me either predecessors he never answered me either predecessors he never answered me either um I think these people you know they um I think these people you know they um I think these people you know they they know they have no answer they know they have no answer they know they have no answer the reason I didn't get a response from

the reason I didn't get a response from the reason I didn't get a response from president ice group is the same as the president ice group is the same as the president ice group is the same as the reason I didn't get a response from the reason I didn't get a response from the reason I didn't get a response from the Headmaster of Milton Academy they Headmaster of Milton Academy they Headmaster of Milton Academy they understand that what they're doing is understand that what they're doing is understand that what they're doing is violative of the fundamental precepts of violative of the fundamental precepts of violative of the fundamental precepts of academic institutions they're ashamed academic institutions they're ashamed academic institutions they're ashamed they that they feel they have no choice they that they feel they have no choice they that they feel they have no choice because they feel that they would be because they feel that they would be because they feel that they would be criticized for racism homophobia criticized for racism homophobia criticized for racism homophobia criticized by how many people well they criticized by how many people well they criticized by how many people well they feel that they would be criticized by feel that they would be criticized by feel that they would be criticized by students and parents and donors I students and parents and donors I students and parents and donors I disagree with that I actually think disagree with that I actually think disagree with that I actually think there are more people out there that there are more people out there that there are more people out there that agree with me than agree with them yeah agree with me than agree with them yeah agree with me than agree with them yeah by a large margin by a large margin in by a large margin by a large margin in by a large margin by a large margin in what I call the real world which is the what I call the real world which is the what I call the real world which is the world outside the campus world outside the campus world outside the campus but academics are afraid they'd be but academics are afraid they'd be but academics are afraid they'd be criticized they're incredibly thin skin criticized they're incredibly thin skin criticized they're incredibly thin skin when I say academics I mean academic when I say academics I mean academic when I say academics I mean academic administrators they're very thin-skinned administrators they're very thin-skinned administrators they're very thin-skinned politically correct holier than now politically correct holier than now politically correct holier than now um as I said I would fire 90 95 of them um as I said I would fire 90 95 of them um as I said I would fire 90 95 of them and I would be more um careful in who I and I would be more um careful in who I and I would be more um careful in who I elected to leave this institutions so I elected to leave this institutions so I elected to leave this institutions so I said Pauline gay is probably going to be said Pauline gay is probably going to be said Pauline gay is probably going to be a disaster at Harvard a disaster at Harvard a disaster at Harvard so it takes guts it takes courage to be so it takes guts it takes courage to be so it takes guts it takes courage to be in the administration when the task of in the administration when the task of in the administration when the task of protecting the freedom of speech is protecting the freedom of speech is protecting the freedom of speech is there and also there and also there and also um which in part requires um which in part requires um which in part requires you to admit and to uphold the mistakes you to admit and to uphold the mistakes you to admit and to uphold the mistakes you've done in the past correct not to

you've done in the past correct not to you've done in the past correct not to hide them correct and that do you do you hide them correct and that do you do you hide them correct and that do you do you I mean Jeffrey Epstein for Harvard and I mean Jeffrey Epstein for Harvard and I mean Jeffrey Epstein for Harvard and for MIT is a very recent mistake well for MIT is a very recent mistake well for MIT is a very recent mistake well there's a debate whether it's a mistake there's a debate whether it's a mistake there's a debate whether it's a mistake they took money from him yes okay they took money from him yes okay they took money from him yes okay is it a mistake to take money from bad is it a mistake to take money from bad is it a mistake to take money from bad people people people do you have to do a morals test of a do you have to do a morals test of a do you have to do a morals test of a potential donor potential donor potential donor I don't think so I don't think so I don't think so um It's Complicated because if there are um It's Complicated because if there are um It's Complicated because if there are no conditions attached to it I think no conditions attached to it I think no conditions attached to it I think it's emotionally complicated I don't it's emotionally complicated I don't it's emotionally complicated I don't think that it is rationally complicated think that it is rationally complicated think that it is rationally complicated um it's emotionally complicated it's um it's emotionally complicated it's um it's emotionally complicated it's particularly complicated if they want particularly complicated if they want particularly complicated if they want naming rights naming rights naming rights yes you know the Jeff Jeffrey Epstein yes you know the Jeff Jeffrey Epstein yes you know the Jeff Jeffrey Epstein biological Laboratory biological Laboratory biological Laboratory um that that would be a problem for most um that that would be a problem for most um that that would be a problem for most universities universities universities um I don't think that naming rights have um I don't think that naming rights have um I don't think that naming rights have to be given to be given to be given to somebody that you that you don't to somebody that you that you don't to somebody that you that you don't think is worthy of having their name I think is worthy of having their name I think is worthy of having their name I think the university has the right to think the university has the right to think the university has the right to say no we'll we'll take your money but say no we'll we'll take your money but say no we'll we'll take your money but we will not name the building a few I we will not name the building a few I we will not name the building a few I think they have a right to do that think they have a right to do that think they have a right to do that there's some degree in which you there's some degree in which you there's some degree in which you whitewash the name though if you not not whitewash the name though if you not not whitewash the name though if you not not with naming rights but with naming rights but with naming rights but if you take the money it allows the if you take the money it allows the if you take the money it allows the person person person in uh public discourse to say that in uh public discourse to say that in uh public discourse to say that they're collaborating they're working they're collaborating they're working they're collaborating they're working together with Harvard and with MIT I together with Harvard and with MIT I together with Harvard and with MIT I have a problem with universities making

have a problem with universities making have a problem with universities making morals tests of the donors morals tests of the donors morals tests of the donors because not every donor is as bad as because not every donor is as bad as because not every donor is as bad as everything but some of the donors made everything but some of the donors made everything but some of the donors made their money in Industry by being their money in Industry by being their money in Industry by being rapacious uh by rapacious uh by rapacious uh by paying low wages by exploiting people paying low wages by exploiting people paying low wages by exploiting people you can uh make the case that you can uh make the case that you can uh make the case that accepting money from the Department of accepting money from the Department of accepting money from the Department of Defense from DARPA from the United Defense from DARPA from the United Defense from DARPA from the United States organizations that uh contributed States organizations that uh contributed States organizations that uh contributed to Waging War and killing hundreds of to Waging War and killing hundreds of to Waging War and killing hundreds of thousands of civilians over the past few thousands of civilians over the past few thousands of civilians over the past few decades correct decades correct decades correct um folks like the 10-year Professor Noam um folks like the 10-year Professor Noam um folks like the 10-year Professor Noam chomski who make the case that that is chomski who make the case that that is chomski who make the case that that is far more evil than far more evil than far more evil than accepting money from Jeffrey Epps yes still Jeffrey Epstein is a known still Jeffrey Epstein is a known pedophile yes pedophile yes pedophile yes so that's why I say I would I would not so that's why I say I would I would not so that's why I say I would I would not give him naming rights give him naming rights give him naming rights I think the university has the autonomy I think the university has the autonomy I think the university has the autonomy to not give naming rights to not give naming rights to not give naming rights but I think giving morals tested donors but I think giving morals tested donors but I think giving morals tested donors is a is a Pandora's Box is a is a Pandora's Box is a is a Pandora's Box what do you think about the aftermath of what do you think about the aftermath of what do you think about the aftermath of the Jeffrey Epstein Saga it feels like the Jeffrey Epstein Saga it feels like the Jeffrey Epstein Saga it feels like I'm not familiar with Harvard's response I'm not familiar with Harvard's response I'm not familiar with Harvard's response but mit's response seemed to but mit's response seemed to but mit's response seemed to um fire a few scapegoats um fire a few scapegoats um fire a few scapegoats and it didn't seem like a genuine and it didn't seem like a genuine and it didn't seem like a genuine response response response of two of two of two the evils that uh human beings are the evils that uh human beings are the evils that uh human beings are capable of sort of like rising to the capable of sort of like rising to the capable of sort of like rising to the surface the description in a fully

surface the description in a fully surface the description in a fully transparent way of all the interactions transparent way of all the interactions transparent way of all the interactions that happen with Jeffrey Epstein and that happen with Jeffrey Epstein and that happen with Jeffrey Epstein and what that means what that means what that means um yeah what that means about the the um yeah what that means about the the um yeah what that means about the the role of money in universities what that role of money in universities what that role of money in universities what that means about just human beings in power means about just human beings in power means about just human beings in power money money is essential to run a money money is essential to run a money money is essential to run a university one of the reasons is university one of the reasons is university one of the reasons is essential is because the university is essential is because the university is essential is because the university is artificially artificially artificially artificially artificially artificially requires huge amounts of money and requires huge amounts of money and requires huge amounts of money and that's partly because of the that's partly because of the that's partly because of the administrative Army that they that they administrative Army that they that they administrative Army that they that they they they they support support support and they wouldn't be less dependent on and they wouldn't be less dependent on and they wouldn't be less dependent on the Jeffrey epsteins of the world if the Jeffrey epsteins of the world if the Jeffrey epsteins of the world if they didn't have they didn't have they didn't have the the so it's sort of all part of the the the so it's sort of all part of the the the so it's sort of all part of the same Circle same Circle same Circle but there's attention here you're saying but there's attention here you're saying but there's attention here you're saying we shouldn't be putting a morals test on we shouldn't be putting a morals test on we shouldn't be putting a morals test on money but actually if you make uh money but actually if you make uh money but actually if you make uh if you expand the amount of money needed if you expand the amount of money needed if you expand the amount of money needed to run the university this you're going to run the university this you're going to run the university this you're going to make less and less up more and more to make less and less up more and more to make less and less up more and more unethical decisions unethical decisions unethical decisions I I am flexible enough to say that I I I am flexible enough to say that I I I am flexible enough to say that I don't think I would name a building don't think I would name a building don't think I would name a building after somebody who is truly evil I think after somebody who is truly evil I think after somebody who is truly evil I think university has the has the right to university has the has the right to university has the has the right to limit the naming rights or for a donor limit the naming rights or for a donor limit the naming rights or for a donor um if I was an absolutist I would not um if I was an absolutist I would not um if I was an absolutist I would not even say that but I'm I'm not an even say that but I'm I'm not an even say that but I'm I'm not an absolutist absolutist absolutist um I I have my limits um I I have my limits um I I have my limits and that's one of them the Jeffrey and that's one of them the Jeffrey and that's one of them the Jeffrey Epstein biological laboratory it's a Epstein biological laboratory it's a Epstein biological laboratory it's a little bit much

little bit much little bit much it feels like there's should be a it feels like there's should be a it feels like there's should be a requirement on there should be moral requirement on there should be moral requirement on there should be moral requirements requirements requirements on who to accept money from but the on who to accept money from but the on who to accept money from but the question is that the concern you have is question is that the concern you have is question is that the concern you have is about who gets to decide about who gets to decide about who gets to decide and what's the alternative correct I and what's the alternative correct I and what's the alternative correct I think there is no alternative I think think there is no alternative I think think there is no alternative I think that turning down a donation because you that turning down a donation because you that turning down a donation because you you don't approve of the conduct of the you don't approve of the conduct of the you don't approve of the conduct of the donor it's a Pandora's Box but I'm just sickened by the fact that but I'm just sickened by the fact that an evil human being was allowed to walk an evil human being was allowed to walk an evil human being was allowed to walk in the halls of a university I love so what do we do with that well are you so what do we do with that well are you telling me that none of the students are telling me that none of the students are telling me that none of the students are evil are you telling me none of the evil are you telling me none of the evil are you telling me none of the faculty members are you telling me some faculty members are you telling me some faculty members are you telling me some none of the administrators are evil none of the administrators are evil none of the administrators are evil um but that doesn't um but that doesn't um but that doesn't sure sure sure sure sure sure so uh saying scapegoating saying that so uh saying scapegoating saying that so uh saying scapegoating saying that Jeffrey Epstein is evil can help us Jeffrey Epstein is evil can help us Jeffrey Epstein is evil can help us forget forget forget can Aid Us in forgetting that there is can Aid Us in forgetting that there is can Aid Us in forgetting that there is other evil in the world and uh some of other evil in the world and uh some of other evil in the world and uh some of it might be roaming still the halls of it might be roaming still the halls of it might be roaming still the halls of MIT and Harvard Hey listen I won't tell MIT and Harvard Hey listen I won't tell MIT and Harvard Hey listen I won't tell you the name but I represented somebody you the name but I represented somebody you the name but I represented somebody in the MIT Administration a few years in the MIT Administration a few years in the MIT Administration a few years ago uh who is who's charged with the ago uh who is who's charged with the ago uh who is who's charged with the sexual improprieties against students sexual improprieties against students sexual improprieties against students um and as a lawyer I represented that um and as a lawyer I represented that um and as a lawyer I represented that person person person um uh people say how could you represent um uh people say how could you represent um uh people say how could you represent you know some of the people that you know some of the people that you know some of the people that represented bad people

represented bad people represented bad people see how can you represent them I said see how can you represent them I said see how can you represent them I said well if I was a cardiologist and this well if I was a cardiologist and this well if I was a cardiologist and this person had a heart attack on the street person had a heart attack on the street person had a heart attack on the street and I didn't deliver CPR I would be have and I didn't deliver CPR I would be have and I didn't deliver CPR I would be have my license taken away I'm a lawyer the my license taken away I'm a lawyer the my license taken away I'm a lawyer the only difference between my obligation only difference between my obligation only difference between my obligation and the doctors obligation is the and the doctors obligation is the and the doctors obligation is the Constitution gives people the right to Constitution gives people the right to Constitution gives people the right to assistance of counsel they don't have assistance of counsel they don't have assistance of counsel they don't have this constitution says nothing about the this constitution says nothing about the this constitution says nothing about the assistance of cardiologists I have a assistance of cardiologists I have a assistance of cardiologists I have a very high duty to represent unpopular very high duty to represent unpopular very high duty to represent unpopular people people people well I think as I apply the same test to well I think as I apply the same test to well I think as I apply the same test to the college donors the college donors the college donors um the university should not have a um the university should not have a um the university should not have a morals test morals test morals test um whose money to take um whose money to take um whose money to take um I I do draw a line about naming um I I do draw a line about naming um I I do draw a line about naming rights of buildings rights of buildings rights of buildings um and as I say that's an inconsistency um and as I say that's an inconsistency um and as I say that's an inconsistency with my absolutism with my absolutism with my absolutism but I just emotionally I just can't deal but I just emotionally I just can't deal but I just emotionally I just can't deal with having you know as I said the with having you know as I said the with having you know as I said the Jeffrey Epstein biological Laboratory Jeffrey Epstein biological Laboratory Jeffrey Epstein biological Laboratory well for me emotionally there's nothing well for me emotionally there's nothing well for me emotionally there's nothing that sickens me more in the University that sickens me more in the University that sickens me more in the University than the abuse of power than the abuse of power than the abuse of power right and there's a little awful lot of right and there's a little awful lot of right and there's a little awful lot of people who abuse power at University and people who abuse power at University and people who abuse power at University and especially when it comes to abuse power especially when it comes to abuse power especially when it comes to abuse power over students correct so sexual over students correct so sexual over students correct so sexual harassment so in the realm of sexual harassment so in the realm of sexual harassment so in the realm of sexual abuse of power and uh all kinds of other abuse of power and uh all kinds of other abuse of power and uh all kinds of other well this is a crime to use one's power well this is a crime to use one's power well this is a crime to use one's power position in order to take sexual position in order to take sexual position in order to take sexual advantage of a student it's a crime yeah advantage of a student it's a crime yeah advantage of a student it's a crime yeah um this is not a close question um this is not a close question um this is not a close question yeah but if there's a legal crime

yeah but if there's a legal crime yeah but if there's a legal crime and there's uh deeply ethical crime and and there's uh deeply ethical crime and and there's uh deeply ethical crime and there's an emotional response that I there's an emotional response that I there's an emotional response that I have have have you are you are you are a good lawyer and perhaps a good man to a good lawyer and perhaps a good man to a good lawyer and perhaps a good man to want to defend want to defend want to defend some folks who are evil in this world I some folks who are evil in this world I some folks who are evil in this world I don't think I have that emotional don't think I have that emotional don't think I have that emotional fortitude well then you shouldn't be a fortitude well then you shouldn't be a fortitude well then you shouldn't be a criminal defense lawyer or a criminal defense lawyer or a criminal defense lawyer or a cardiologist cardiologist cardiologist I think you're right I think you're right I think you're right I'm still deeply sickened by Jeffrey I'm still deeply sickened by Jeffrey I'm still deeply sickened by Jeffrey Epstein and the faculty the Epstein and the faculty the Epstein and the faculty the administration that still might be in administration that still might be in administration that still might be in these Great American universities that these Great American universities that these Great American universities that are abusing their power in small ways are abusing their power in small ways are abusing their power in small ways and big ways but that's human nature you and big ways but that's human nature you and big ways but that's human nature you get a little bit of power and you're in get a little bit of power and you're in get a little bit of power and you're in a bad man or a bad woman and you take a bad man or a bad woman and you take a bad man or a bad woman and you take advantage of it yep we see that in the advantage of it yep we see that in the advantage of it yep we see that in the smallest of ways and in the biggest ways smallest of ways and in the biggest ways smallest of ways and in the biggest ways and uh and uh and uh institutions and regimes all across the institutions and regimes all across the institutions and regimes all across the world oh boy Harvey it's a complicated oh boy Harvey it's a complicated situation well it's a complicated world situation well it's a complicated world situation well it's a complicated world and it's complicated to be a human being and it's complicated to be a human being and it's complicated to be a human being and this is nothing new and we should and this is nothing new and we should and this is nothing new and we should talk about it uh without restriction talk about it uh without restriction talk about it uh without restriction all right just a linger on liberal arts all right just a linger on liberal arts all right just a linger on liberal arts in 2014 and probably still today you in 2014 and probably still today you in 2014 and probably still today you wrote that Liberals are killing the wrote that Liberals are killing the wrote that Liberals are killing the liberal arts yes so can you explain yes liberal arts yes so can you explain yes liberal arts yes so can you explain yes the problem with I'm a political liberal the problem with I'm a political liberal the problem with I'm a political liberal the problem with the the political left the problem with the the political left the problem with the the political left is that it has divided is that it has divided

is that it has divided between what's called progressives between what's called progressives between what's called progressives and liberals and liberals and liberals Liberals are people of the left who Liberals are people of the left who Liberals are people of the left who believe in the First Amendment an believe in the First Amendment an believe in the First Amendment an absolute First Amendment and in due absolute First Amendment and in due absolute First Amendment and in due process of law process of law process of law and um and um and um the the problem with what progressives the the problem with what progressives the the problem with what progressives now now now in the pursuit of in the pursuit of in the pursuit of equality what they view as equality equality what they view as equality equality what they view as equality they're willing to bend those rules and they're willing to bend those rules and they're willing to bend those rules and this movement actually started in this movement actually started in this movement actually started in Brandeis Brandeis Brandeis um the um the critical it's the critical um the um the critical it's the critical um the um the critical it's the critical race Theory uh it started Herbert Marcus race Theory uh it started Herbert Marcus race Theory uh it started Herbert Marcus it was a professor at Brandeis and he it was a professor at Brandeis and he it was a professor at Brandeis and he came up with his theory the theory was came up with his theory the theory was came up with his theory the theory was this this is right out of Orwell this this is right out of Orwell this this is right out of Orwell in order to create true equality in a in order to create true equality in a in order to create true equality in a society where you have some downtrodden society where you have some downtrodden society where you have some downtrodden and some who are The Uber mentioned and some who are The Uber mentioned and some who are The Uber mentioned in order to create real in order to create real in order to create real um equality you have to reduce the um equality you have to reduce the um equality you have to reduce the rights of the upper classes rights of the upper classes rights of the upper classes and artificially increase the rights of and artificially increase the rights of and artificially increase the rights of the lower classes the lower classes the lower classes and um and um and um that will produce that will produce that will produce out of out of out of unequal treatment unequal treatment unequal treatment true equality will be will be attained true equality will be will be attained true equality will be will be attained this is nonsense

the idea of discrimination the idea of discrimination producing true equality is nonsense producing true equality is nonsense producing true equality is nonsense my view is as I've said earlier in our my view is as I've said earlier in our my view is as I've said earlier in our discussion discussion discussion that the way to that the way to that the way to increase the opportunities increase the opportunities increase the opportunities for the lower classes is to give them for the lower classes is to give them for the lower classes is to give them real educations real educations real educations and until we do that it's not going to and until we do that it's not going to and until we do that it's not going to happen and in order to do that we have happen and in order to do that we have happen and in order to do that we have to overcome to overcome to overcome the problem of the teachers unions at the problem of the teachers unions at the problem of the teachers unions at the elementary and secondary school the elementary and secondary school the elementary and secondary school levels until we're willing to do that levels until we're willing to do that levels until we're willing to do that honestly honestly honestly improve those schools we're going to improve those schools we're going to improve those schools we're going to have a problem of a large number of have a problem of a large number of have a problem of a large number of uneducated people uneducated people uneducated people who need a boost because we haven't who need a boost because we haven't who need a boost because we haven't given them proper educations given them proper educations given them proper educations what do you think about some of the more what do you think about some of the more what do you think about some of the more controversial faculty in the world so an controversial faculty in the world so an controversial faculty in the world so an example somebody I've spoken with many example somebody I've spoken with many example somebody I've spoken with many times on Mike and offline is Jordan times on Mike and offline is Jordan times on Mike and offline is Jordan Peterson I'm not sure if you're familiar Peterson I'm not sure if you're familiar Peterson I'm not sure if you're familiar with his work yes but he is an outspoken with his work yes but he is an outspoken with his work yes but he is an outspoken critic of uh or proponent of free speech critic of uh or proponent of free speech critic of uh or proponent of free speech on campus and he's been attacked quite a on campus and he's been attacked quite a on campus and he's been attacked quite a bit bit bit he's a controversial figure he's a controversial figure he's a controversial figure which throw the university to protect which throw the university to protect which throw the university to protect the Jordan Petersons of the world I the Jordan Petersons of the world I the Jordan Petersons of the world I think the university has an absolute think the university has an absolute think the university has an absolute absolute not relative not water that absolute not relative not water that absolute not relative not water that absolute Road absolute Road absolute Road obligation to protect the academic obligation to protect the academic obligation to protect the academic freedom of even the most controversial freedom of even the most controversial freedom of even the most controversial faculty members

faculty members faculty members and you can imagine at a University and you can imagine at a University and you can imagine at a University campus you have more people who are campus you have more people who are campus you have more people who are outliers than you do in the general outliers than you do in the general outliers than you do in the general population population population um um um and um that's the hope at least and um that's the hope at least and um that's the hope at least hopefully yeah hopefully yeah hopefully yeah and and and and and and um and those outliers have to be um and those outliers have to be um and those outliers have to be protected protected protected they can't be pressured they can't be they can't be pressured they can't be they can't be pressured they can't be fired they can't be disabled from fired they can't be disabled from fired they can't be disabled from spewing their their views whether spewing their their views whether spewing their their views whether they're considered racist whether they're considered racist whether they're considered racist whether they're considered to be you know a they're considered to be you know a they're considered to be you know a promote an idea of human society that's promote an idea of human society that's promote an idea of human society that's considered obnoxious considered obnoxious considered obnoxious um it doesn't matter if you can't if if um it doesn't matter if you can't if if um it doesn't matter if you can't if if you can't have freedom of thought on the you can't have freedom of thought on the you can't have freedom of thought on the college campuses where can you you know college campuses where can you you know college campuses where can you you know then we're lost as a society we're lost then we're lost as a society we're lost then we're lost as a society we're lost and as an educational institution and as an educational institution and as an educational institution um educational institutions no longer um educational institutions no longer um educational institutions no longer will educate they will indoctrinate will educate they will indoctrinate will educate they will indoctrinate that we have to avoid at all costs and that we have to avoid at all costs and that we have to avoid at all costs and we should also remember that the outlier we should also remember that the outlier we should also remember that the outlier might also be the only bearer of Truth might also be the only bearer of Truth might also be the only bearer of Truth so in Nazi Germany speaking against the so in Nazi Germany speaking against the so in Nazi Germany speaking against the fascism fascist regime and uh communist fascism fascist regime and uh communist fascism fascist regime and uh communist Soviet Union speaking against communism Soviet Union speaking against communism Soviet Union speaking against communism they might hold the key to the solving they might hold the key to the solving they might hold the key to the solving the ailments of that Society absolutely the ailments of that Society absolutely the ailments of that Society absolutely and some of the most important and some of the most important and some of the most important discoveries in science for example discoveries in science for example discoveries in science for example were were mocked were were mocked were were mocked at the beginning I mean think of poor

at the beginning I mean think of poor at the beginning I mean think of poor Charlie Darwin Charlie I see he is on Charlie Darwin Charlie I see he is on Charlie Darwin Charlie I see he is on nickname uh levels with you uh well nickname uh levels with you uh well nickname uh levels with you uh well because we're talking about these big because we're talking about these big because we're talking about these big topics of sexism and racism and hate topics of sexism and racism and hate topics of sexism and racism and hate they should not forget about the smaller they should not forget about the smaller they should not forget about the smaller topics which might even have the much topics which might even have the much topics which might even have the much bigger impact which is what you're bigger impact which is what you're bigger impact which is what you're speaking to which is uh speaking to which is uh speaking to which is uh outlier uh ideas and science so outlier uh ideas and science so outlier uh ideas and science so basically whelping welcoming basically whelping welcoming basically whelping welcoming controversial ideas in science and by controversial ideas in science and by controversial ideas in science and by controversial I mean just stuff that controversial I mean just stuff that controversial I mean just stuff that that uh most the community doesn't agree that uh most the community doesn't agree that uh most the community doesn't agree on it doesn't actually harm anyone at on it doesn't actually harm anyone at on it doesn't actually harm anyone at all but even then there's always all but even then there's always all but even then there's always pressure one of the things I'm really pressure one of the things I'm really pressure one of the things I'm really concerned about is how little power concerned about is how little power concerned about is how little power young faculty have young faculty have young faculty have that there's a kind of hierarchy that there's a kind of hierarchy that there's a kind of hierarchy seniority that's uh that universities seniority that's uh that universities seniority that's uh that universities have empowered by the administration have empowered by the administration have empowered by the administration where young faculty that come in they're where young faculty that come in they're where young faculty that come in they're kind of uh kind of uh kind of uh pre-tenured yeah there's a there's a pre-tenured yeah there's a there's a pre-tenured yeah there's a there's a process in chasing tenure where you're process in chasing tenure where you're process in chasing tenure where you're kind of supposed to behave kind of supposed to behave kind of supposed to behave and there's an uh incentive to kind of and there's an uh incentive to kind of and there's an uh incentive to kind of fit in and to not be an outcast and that fit in and to not be an outcast and that fit in and to not be an outcast and that that's a really huge problem because that's a really huge problem because that's a really huge problem because oftentimes the youth oftentimes the youth oftentimes the youth is when the craziest the biggest ideas is when the craziest the biggest ideas is when the craziest the biggest ideas the revolution idea is common if you're the revolution idea is common if you're the revolution idea is common if you're forced to behave and fit in and not forced to behave and fit in and not forced to behave and fit in and not speak out then even in the realm of speak out then even in the realm of speak out then even in the realm of science the The Innovation is stifled science the The Innovation is stifled science the The Innovation is stifled well now you now you trigger my uh I'll

well now you now you trigger my uh I'll well now you now you trigger my uh I'll tell you this story that you're tell you this story that you're tell you this story that you're triggered this is good triggered this is good triggered this is good in the mid-1980s I decided to take a in the mid-1980s I decided to take a in the mid-1980s I decided to take a four-month sabbatical from my law four-month sabbatical from my law four-month sabbatical from my law practice yes practice yes practice yes Professor James vornburg who is the time Professor James vornburg who is the time Professor James vornburg who is the time dean of the Harvard Law School heard dean of the Harvard Law School heard dean of the Harvard Law School heard about it about it about it heard about it from his wife Elizabeth heard about it from his wife Elizabeth heard about it from his wife Elizabeth Betty wurenberg Betty wurenberg Betty wurenberg whom I was very friendly with because we whom I was very friendly with because we whom I was very friendly with because we were both on the acou the ACLU of were both on the acou the ACLU of were both on the acou the ACLU of Massachusetts board at the time Massachusetts board at the time Massachusetts board at the time and um so Betty told Jim and um so Betty told Jim and um so Betty told Jim that Harvey was taking a sabbatical that Harvey was taking a sabbatical that Harvey was taking a sabbatical Jim called Harvey and asked Harvey if he Jim called Harvey and asked Harvey if he Jim called Harvey and asked Harvey if he would like to teach a course at the would like to teach a course at the would like to teach a course at the Harvard Law School Harvard Law School Harvard Law School because there was nobody who had because there was nobody who had because there was nobody who had teaching criminal law from the teaching criminal law from the teaching criminal law from the perspective of somebody who actually was perspective of somebody who actually was perspective of somebody who actually was in court litigated in court litigated in court litigated it was all theoretical it was all theoretical it was all theoretical I said sure I'll do it I said sure I'll do it I said sure I'll do it so I taught a semester at Harvard Law so I taught a semester at Harvard Law so I taught a semester at Harvard Law School School School the student evaluations were fabulous the student evaluations were fabulous the student evaluations were fabulous why because it was really interesting why because it was really interesting why because it was really interesting they were hearing a lawyer who's talking they were hearing a lawyer who's talking they were hearing a lawyer who's talking about real cases I actually brought in a about real cases I actually brought in a about real cases I actually brought in a few of my clients some of the classes few of my clients some of the classes few of my clients some of the classes and um so Jim called me and said hurry and um so Jim called me and said hurry and um so Jim called me and said hurry the students loved this course I'd like the students loved this course I'd like the students loved this course I'd like to offer you a tenure track position to offer you a tenure track position to offer you a tenure track position at the law school you'd have to give up at the law school you'd have to give up at the law school you'd have to give up your law practice I turned him down your law practice I turned him down your law practice I turned him down he said he said he said did you just say no I said yes I said no did you just say no I said yes I said no did you just say no I said yes I said no he said how come he says nobody ever has

he said how come he says nobody ever has he said how come he says nobody ever has ever in my Administration ever in my Administration ever in my Administration has ever turned down a tenure track has ever turned down a tenure track has ever turned down a tenure track offer at Harvard Law School offer at Harvard Law School offer at Harvard Law School so because I could see that I'm not a so because I could see that I'm not a so because I could see that I'm not a good fit good fit good fit that the administrators are over run the that the administrators are over run the that the administrators are over run the place place place that faculty members especially that faculty members especially that faculty members especially untenured who are afraid to say things untenured who are afraid to say things untenured who are afraid to say things that might not get help them in the that might not get help them in the that might not get help them in the 10-year Quest 10-year Quest 10-year Quest um it's it's not a good fit for me you um it's it's not a good fit for me you um it's it's not a good fit for me you saw this in the mid 1980s already yes saw this in the mid 1980s already yes saw this in the mid 1980s already yes 1985. 1985. 1985. and um I went back to my law practice I and um I went back to my law practice I and um I went back to my law practice I I did not want to get into this me crime I did not want to get into this me crime I did not want to get into this me crime that that I saw after all I had I that that I saw after all I had I that that I saw after all I had I started to see it before the turn of the started to see it before the turn of the started to see it before the turn of the century because I co-authored the shadow century because I co-authored the shadow century because I co-authored the shadow University in 98. University in 98. University in 98. and then co-founded fire in 99 I was and then co-founded fire in 99 I was and then co-founded fire in 99 I was early student of this phenomenon early student of this phenomenon early student of this phenomenon what are some other aspects of this uh what are some other aspects of this uh what are some other aspects of this uh the book The Shadow University that we the book The Shadow University that we the book The Shadow University that we may have not covered well let me let me may have not covered well let me let me may have not covered well let me let me tell you a story I believe I tell it the tell you a story I believe I tell it the tell you a story I believe I tell it the shadow University because it was part of shadow University because it was part of shadow University because it was part of I'm loving these stories Harvey the I'm loving these stories Harvey the I'm loving these stories Harvey the stories are fabulous let me tell you a stories are fabulous let me tell you a stories are fabulous let me tell you a story of um story of um story of um um I I I I did a tour of the country go um I I I I did a tour of the country go um I I I I did a tour of the country go visiting campuses visiting campuses visiting campuses I visited a college called Hamline I visited a college called Hamline I visited a college called Hamline University I believe it was in Indiana University I believe it was in Indiana University I believe it was in Indiana or Illinois somewhere in the Midwest

or Illinois somewhere in the Midwest or Illinois somewhere in the Midwest and I I attended a freshman orientation and I I attended a freshman orientation and I I attended a freshman orientation now listen to this now listen to this now listen to this this was a freshman orientation this was a freshman orientation this was a freshman orientation the administrators the administrators the administrators the Deans and the dnets and the deputy the Deans and the dnets and the deputy the Deans and the dnets and the deputy assistant Deans and Dean hats and that assistant Deans and Dean hats and that assistant Deans and Dean hats and that that third Deputy assistant Deans and that third Deputy assistant Deans and that third Deputy assistant Deans and dinas line the students up according to dinas line the students up according to dinas line the students up according to their skin hues their skin hues their skin hues oh boy the the blonde blue-eyed white oh boy the the blonde blue-eyed white oh boy the the blonde blue-eyed white folks were at one end the darkest folks were at one end the darkest folks were at one end the darkest um you know um you know um you know African-Americans who had whose African-Americans who had whose African-Americans who had whose Bloodlines had not yet mixed with any of Bloodlines had not yet mixed with any of Bloodlines had not yet mixed with any of the whites the whites the whites on the other end and the exercise was on the other end and the exercise was on the other end and the exercise was you had to tell how you erase affected you had to tell how you erase affected you had to tell how you erase affected your success in life up until that point I thought it was the most demeaning I thought it was the most demeaning thing that I could imagine thing that I could imagine thing that I could imagine demeaning I thought to myself they could demeaning I thought to myself they could demeaning I thought to myself they could do the same about sexual orientation do the same about sexual orientation do the same about sexual orientation they could do the same about religion they could do the same about religion they could do the same about religion they could just have a national origin they could just have a national origin they could just have a national origin it would be demeaning no matter what it would be demeaning no matter what it would be demeaning no matter what yeah and and the students actually yeah and and the students actually yeah and and the students actually verbalized how their race verbalized how their race verbalized how their race had either Been A Plus or a minus they had either Been A Plus or a minus they had either Been A Plus or a minus they did it they did and I thought it was so did it they did and I thought it was so did it they did and I thought it was so demeaning it just confirmed all of my

demeaning it just confirmed all of my demeaning it just confirmed all of my distaste for this kind of uh distaste for this kind of uh distaste for this kind of uh this kind of approach uh let me ask you this kind of approach uh let me ask you this kind of approach uh let me ask you from the interviewer see it so I get to from the interviewer see it so I get to from the interviewer see it so I get to do this podcast and I often have to do this podcast and I often have to do this podcast and I often have to think about giving a large platform and think about giving a large platform and think about giving a large platform and having a conversation with very having a conversation with very having a conversation with very controversial figures and the the level controversial figures and the the level controversial figures and the the level of controversy has been slowly of controversy has been slowly of controversy has been slowly increasing uh what's the role increasing uh what's the role increasing uh what's the role of this medium to to you of this medium to to you of this medium to to you oh this medium of speech between two oh this medium of speech between two oh this medium of speech between two people and me speaking with a people and me speaking with a people and me speaking with a controversial figure me or some other controversial figure me or some other controversial figure me or some other interviewer what's the role of uh giving interviewer what's the role of uh giving interviewer what's the role of uh giving platform to controversial figures say platform to controversial figures say platform to controversial figures say members of the KKK or dictators members of the KKK or dictators members of the KKK or dictators um um um people who are seen as evil well we want people who are seen as evil well we want people who are seen as evil well we want to face the world with reality to face the world with reality to face the world with reality and the reality is that there are some and the reality is that there are some and the reality is that there are some unpleasantness unpleasantness unpleasantness unpleasantnesses in the world unpleasantnesses in the world unpleasantnesses in the world you know running from genocide right you know running from genocide right you know running from genocide right through to ordinary discrimination through to ordinary discrimination through to ordinary discrimination um to offensiveness it's the real world um to offensiveness it's the real world um to offensiveness it's the real world as we we know it exists are we afraid to as we we know it exists are we afraid to as we we know it exists are we afraid to say it say it say it do we want to make people think that we do we want to make people think that we do we want to make people think that we live in a world where those words are live in a world where those words are live in a world where those words are not used where those animosities don't not used where those animosities don't not used where those animosities don't exist exist exist um the answer is no but you can um the answer is no but you can um the answer is no but you can whitewash you can normalize the use of whitewash you can normalize the use of whitewash you can normalize the use of those words you can whitewash the uh those words you can whitewash the uh those words you can whitewash the uh acceptability of certain leaders so for acceptability of certain leaders so for acceptability of certain leaders so for example interviewing Hitler in 1938 1935

example interviewing Hitler in 1938 1935 example interviewing Hitler in 1938 1935 1936 1937 38 those are all different 1936 1937 38 those are all different 1936 1937 38 those are all different Dynamics there but you can normalize Dynamics there but you can normalize Dynamics there but you can normalize this person and in so doing create this person and in so doing create this person and in so doing create enormous harm well see I don't see it is enormous harm well see I don't see it is enormous harm well see I don't see it is normalizing I see it as exposing normalizing I see it as exposing normalizing I see it as exposing if more people had taken mancom if more people had taken mancom if more people had taken mancom seriously seriously seriously um Franklin Roosevelt would have acted um Franklin Roosevelt would have acted um Franklin Roosevelt would have acted much sooner much sooner much sooner he only got us into the war as Congress he only got us into the war as Congress he only got us into the war as Congress to get us into the war when the Japanese to get us into the war when the Japanese to get us into the war when the Japanese made the mistake of attacking Pearl made the mistake of attacking Pearl made the mistake of attacking Pearl Harbor Harbor Harbor um but there were some people in the um but there were some people in the um but there were some people in the state department there were some people state department there were some people state department there were some people in the administration who were trying in the administration who were trying in the administration who were trying trying to get Roosevelt to see what trying to get Roosevelt to see what trying to get Roosevelt to see what Hitler was really like and he was blind Hitler was really like and he was blind Hitler was really like and he was blind to it and this was one of the greatest to it and this was one of the greatest to it and this was one of the greatest presidents the United States ever had he presidents the United States ever had he presidents the United States ever had he was blind to it until the Japanese was blind to it until the Japanese was blind to it until the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor attacked Pearl Harbor attacked Pearl Harbor so I think that words so I think that words so I think that words unpleasant ideas as expressed by words unpleasant ideas as expressed by words unpleasant ideas as expressed by words are essential for communicating fact and are essential for communicating fact and are essential for communicating fact and truth and reality and that's why I think truth and reality and that's why I think truth and reality and that's why I think that we should not whitewash language we that we should not whitewash language we that we should not whitewash language we should not whitewash the fact that should not whitewash the fact that should not whitewash the fact that Jeffrey Epstein was pretty close to MIT Jeffrey Epstein was pretty close to MIT Jeffrey Epstein was pretty close to MIT and Harvard and Harvard and Harvard and Harvard and Harvard and Harvard um and um your reality reality actually um and um your reality reality actually um and um your reality reality actually means something yeah but from the role means something yeah but from the role means something yeah but from the role of the interviewer that's something I of the interviewer that's something I of the interviewer that's something I have to think a lot about whether

have to think a lot about whether have to think a lot about whether interviewing Hitler you said exposing interviewing Hitler you said exposing interviewing Hitler you said exposing I think I think I think it's hard to know what Hitler's like in it's hard to know what Hitler's like in it's hard to know what Hitler's like in a room but a room but a room but uh it's also hard to know I've never met uh it's also hard to know I've never met uh it's also hard to know I've never met Jeffrey ever since cartoon know what Jeffrey ever since cartoon know what Jeffrey ever since cartoon know what Jeffrey Epstein is like in a room but I Jeffrey Epstein is like in a room but I Jeffrey Epstein is like in a room but I imagine to some degree they're imagine to some degree they're imagine to some degree they're charismatic figures charismatic figures charismatic figures so exposing them in the interview so exposing them in the interview so exposing them in the interview setting is not an easy task setting is not an easy task setting is not an easy task well interviewing is not an easy all well interviewing is not an easy all well interviewing is not an easy all right job yeah right job yeah right job yeah um it's it's not a good idea to have an um it's it's not a good idea to have an um it's it's not a good idea to have an interview and be an idiot interview and be an idiot interview and be an idiot hey hey hey I know exactly what you're saying and I I know exactly what you're saying and I I know exactly what you're saying and I know why you're looking at me directly know why you're looking at me directly know why you're looking at me directly as you say it I appreciate that Harvey as you say it I appreciate that Harvey as you say it I appreciate that Harvey all right all right all right let me ask about your your friend your let me ask about your your friend your let me ask about your your friend your colleague uh Alan dershowitz colleague uh Alan dershowitz colleague uh Alan dershowitz and I'll also ask about your review of and I'll also ask about your review of and I'll also ask about your review of his most recent book but before then his most recent book but before then his most recent book but before then it'd be interesting um it'd be interesting um it'd be interesting um to ask what you think of him as a human to ask what you think of him as a human to ask what you think of him as a human being as a lawyer he's a quite an being as a lawyer he's a quite an being as a lawyer he's a quite an interesting case he's represented some interesting case he's represented some interesting case he's represented some of the most controversial figures in of the most controversial figures in of the most controversial figures in history including Jeffrey up Steve history including Jeffrey up Steve history including Jeffrey up Steve including Jeffrey Epps team Mike Tyson including Jeffrey Epps team Mike Tyson including Jeffrey Epps team Mike Tyson Julian Assange Jim Baker and uh Jeffrey Julian Assange Jim Baker and uh Jeffrey Julian Assange Jim Baker and uh Jeffrey Epstein and even Donald Trump Epstein and even Donald Trump Epstein and even Donald Trump so he's an interesting figure what do so he's an interesting figure what do so he's an interesting figure what do you think about that that's about bulo you think about that that's about bulo you think about that that's about bulo what do you think what do you think what do you think what do you think what do you think what do you think about uh him as a human being as a about uh him as a human being as a about uh him as a human being as a lawyer what he represents in terms of lawyer what he represents in terms of lawyer what he represents in terms of values and ideals well he's a criminal values and ideals well he's a criminal values and ideals well he's a criminal defense lawyer and the job of a criminal

defense lawyer and the job of a criminal defense lawyer and the job of a criminal defense lawyer is to represent accuse defense lawyer is to represent accuse defense lawyer is to represent accuse criminals criminals criminals uh he he is a lifelong Democrat uh he he is a lifelong Democrat uh he he is a lifelong Democrat he didn't represent Trump because he he didn't represent Trump because he he didn't represent Trump because he agrees with him politically voted for agrees with him politically voted for agrees with him politically voted for Hillary I believe he wrote he voted for Hillary I believe he wrote he voted for Hillary I believe he wrote he voted for Hillary yes that's what he says and I Hillary yes that's what he says and I Hillary yes that's what he says and I absolutely believe it he's a he's a absolutely believe it he's a he's a absolutely believe it he's a he's a liberal Democrat liberal Democrat liberal Democrat um but is a criminal defense lawyer as um but is a criminal defense lawyer as um but is a criminal defense lawyer as well as a professor well as a professor well as a professor and um I've represented some very nasty and um I've represented some very nasty and um I've represented some very nasty people people people uh in in my career uh in in my career uh in in my career um I wouldn't go out for coffee with um I wouldn't go out for coffee with um I wouldn't go out for coffee with them them them but they have the constitutional rights but they have the constitutional rights but they have the constitutional rights to representation to representation to representation and you take that very seriously yes you and you take that very seriously yes you and you take that very seriously yes you notice something that people don't notice something that people don't notice something that people don't understand about their shorts understand about their shorts understand about their shorts he was asked by Trump to represent him he was asked by Trump to represent him he was asked by Trump to represent him in the second impeachment as well he in the second impeachment as well he in the second impeachment as well he turned him down turned him down turned him down why do you think he turned down so why do you think he turned down so why do you think he turned down so people should know he represented Trump people should know he represented Trump people should know he represented Trump in the first impeachment she represented in the first impeachment she represented in the first impeachment she represented only in the first only in the first only in the first and he was successful and when Trump was and he was successful and when Trump was and he was successful and when Trump was impeached the second time he asked Alan impeached the second time he asked Alan impeached the second time he asked Alan to represent him to represent him to represent him has had a lifelong policy of only has had a lifelong policy of only has had a lifelong policy of only representing somebody once never twice representing somebody once never twice representing somebody once never twice why because he never wanted to be house why because he never wanted to be house why because he never wanted to be house counsel to the mafia counsel to the mafia counsel to the mafia and so he early on had this position he and so he early on had this position he and so he early on had this position he only represented somebody once the mafia only represented somebody once the mafia only represented somebody once the mafia wants a lawyer who's an in-house wants a lawyer who's an in-house wants a lawyer who's an in-house Council who represents the mirror in

Council who represents the mirror in Council who represents the mirror in Wale cases Wale cases Wale cases so that's the reason that now I never so that's the reason that now I never so that's the reason that now I never publicly explained that I know it's a publicly explained that I know it's a publicly explained that I know it's a fact because I've known him from the day fact because I've known him from the day fact because I've known him from the day that we met at Harvard Law School 1964 that we met at Harvard Law School 1964 that we met at Harvard Law School 1964 he was a first year Professor I was a he was a first year Professor I was a he was a first year Professor I was a first year student we both had Brooklyn first year student we both had Brooklyn first year student we both had Brooklyn accidents and we hit it off accidents and we hit it off accidents and we hit it off we've been close friends ever since so we've been close friends ever since so we've been close friends ever since so there's some kind of unethical line there's some kind of unethical line there's some kind of unethical line that's crossed when you continuously that's crossed when you continuously that's crossed when you continuously represent a client represent a client represent a client yeah he thought it was not so much an yeah he thought it was not so much an yeah he thought it was not so much an ethical one and you have a right to ethical one and you have a right to ethical one and you have a right to represent Mafia people but he didn't represent Mafia people but he didn't represent Mafia people but he didn't want to be house counsel he didn't want want to be house counsel he didn't want want to be house counsel he didn't want to be you know have him ask him for to be you know have him ask him for to be you know have him ask him for advice in advance of what they were advice in advance of what they were advice in advance of what they were doing yeah he he was willing to doing yeah he he was willing to doing yeah he he was willing to represent somebody who won so no matter represent somebody who won so no matter represent somebody who won so no matter how awful Klaus Farm bulo was accused of how awful Klaus Farm bulo was accused of how awful Klaus Farm bulo was accused of killing his wife these are pretty nasty killing his wife these are pretty nasty killing his wife these are pretty nasty people people people um but he didn't want to be house um but he didn't want to be house um but he didn't want to be house counsel to any of them counsel to any of them counsel to any of them so you wrote a review of Alan so you wrote a review of Alan so you wrote a review of Alan dershowitz's new book yes on Donald dershowitz's new book yes on Donald dershowitz's new book yes on Donald Trump the title of that book is get Trump the title of that book is get Trump the title of that book is get Trump the threat to civil liberties due Trump the threat to civil liberties due Trump the threat to civil liberties due process and our constitutional rule of process and our constitutional rule of process and our constitutional rule of law can you summarize this book and your law can you summarize this book and your law can you summarize this book and your review of it yes by the way I review of it yes by the way I review of it yes by the way I co-authored it with my research co-authored it with my research co-authored it with my research assistant who's sitting right here Emily assistant who's sitting right here Emily assistant who's sitting right here Emily yes yes yes um and um um and um um and um I thought that the book was another I thought that the book was another I thought that the book was another example example example of the fact that everybody is entitled of the fact that everybody is entitled of the fact that everybody is entitled to a defense to a defense to a defense and that Allen's being involved with

and that Allen's being involved with and that Allen's being involved with Trump was purely professional it was not Trump was purely professional it was not Trump was purely professional it was not political it was not philosophical political it was not philosophical political it was not philosophical and I thought that the fact that he was and I thought that the fact that he was and I thought that the fact that he was being um being um being um uh criticized he was being shunned uh criticized he was being shunned uh criticized he was being shunned because of his connection to Detroit but because of his connection to Detroit but because of his connection to Detroit but I found it very interesting I found it very interesting I found it very interesting that this is a guy who represented such that this is a guy who represented such that this is a guy who represented such um um um I'll call them distasteful figures I'll call them distasteful figures I'll call them distasteful figures as Klaus Farm Bulow as Klaus Farm Bulow as Klaus Farm Bulow uh as uh uh as uh uh as uh um Mike Tyson um Mike Tyson um Mike Tyson uh as O.J Simpson uh as O.J Simpson uh as O.J Simpson a Sheldon Siegel a Sheldon Siegel a Sheldon Siegel uh when he was considered to be uh when he was considered to be uh when he was considered to be a skillful a skillful a skillful lawyer made his reputation lawyer made his reputation lawyer made his reputation and then he represents Donald Trump who and then he represents Donald Trump who and then he represents Donald Trump who to mind knowledge never killed anybody to mind knowledge never killed anybody to mind knowledge never killed anybody um um um and he's suddenly shunned I thought the and he's suddenly shunned I thought the and he's suddenly shunned I thought the hypocrisy of it the political preening hypocrisy of it the political preening hypocrisy of it the political preening it was it was it was um very distasteful to me um very distasteful to me um very distasteful to me um and it was not only because he was my um and it was not only because he was my um and it was not only because he was my friend if he wasn't my friend I think friend if he wasn't my friend I think friend if he wasn't my friend I think I'd have the same view I'd have the same view I'd have the same view um the holier than thou nonsense um the holier than thou nonsense um the holier than thou nonsense uh the hypocrisy of it uh the hypocrisy of it uh the hypocrisy of it um you know they wouldn't talk they were um you know they wouldn't talk they were um you know they wouldn't talk they were Martha's via now Martha's via now Martha's via now different I'm not so sensitive different I'm not so sensitive different I'm not so sensitive I'm someone doesn't want to talk to me I'm someone doesn't want to talk to me I'm someone doesn't want to talk to me it's no problem no problem at all

it's no problem no problem at all it's no problem no problem at all um but Alan is because considering how um but Alan is because considering how um but Alan is because considering how controversial his life has been is controversial his life has been is controversial his life has been is someone sensitive he's somewhat someone sensitive he's somewhat someone sensitive he's somewhat sensitive and I'm just telling out you sensitive and I'm just telling out you sensitive and I'm just telling out you know the hour don't let it get to you know the hour don't let it get to you know the hour don't let it get to you you know okay I can relate I can I can you know okay I can relate I can I can you know okay I can relate I can I can definitely relate take an awesome definitely relate take an awesome definitely relate take an awesome controversial conversation still wear my controversial conversation still wear my controversial conversation still wear my heart on my sleeve it hurts all of it heart on my sleeve it hurts all of it heart on my sleeve it hurts all of it hurts yep but maybe the pain makes you a hurts yep but maybe the pain makes you a hurts yep but maybe the pain makes you a better better better a student of human nature yep maybe a student of human nature yep maybe a student of human nature yep maybe that's the case for him nevertheless the that's the case for him nevertheless the that's the case for him nevertheless the book has a makes a a complicated and I book has a makes a a complicated and I book has a makes a a complicated and I think an interesting point he opens the think an interesting point he opens the think an interesting point he opens the pair he opens the book with not that pair he opens the book with not that pair he opens the book with not that Donald Trump has announced his candidacy Donald Trump has announced his candidacy Donald Trump has announced his candidacy for a re-election as president the for a re-election as president the for a re-election as president the unremitting efforts by his political unremitting efforts by his political unremitting efforts by his political opponents to quote get him to stop him opponents to quote get him to stop him opponents to quote get him to stop him from running at any cost will only from running at any cost will only from running at any cost will only increase these efforts May pose the most increase these efforts May pose the most increase these efforts May pose the most significant threat to civil liberty significant threat to civil liberty significant threat to civil liberty since McCarthyism so is he right he's since McCarthyism so is he right he's since McCarthyism so is he right he's absolutely right because these attempted absolutely right because these attempted absolutely right because these attempted for example the prosecution the the one for example the prosecution the the one for example the prosecution the the one prosecution that has been brought now prosecution that has been brought now prosecution that has been brought now Alvin Brigg in in the Manhattan Alvin Brigg in in the Manhattan Alvin Brigg in in the Manhattan I have looked at that and I don't I have looked at that and I don't I have looked at that and I don't believe that Trump is committed a crime believe that Trump is committed a crime believe that Trump is committed a crime and yet Bragg was pressured to bring and yet Bragg was pressured to bring and yet Bragg was pressured to bring that people in his office we're that people in his office we're that people in his office we're threatening to quit if he didn't indict threatening to quit if he didn't indict threatening to quit if he didn't indict holy and proper holy unethical holy and proper holy unethical holy and proper holy unethical um and is going to lose the case um and is going to lose the case um and is going to lose the case has Trump committed crimes yes most of has Trump committed crimes yes most of has Trump committed crimes yes most of their tax crimes their tax crimes their tax crimes um if his uh he has cheated on taxes his

um if his uh he has cheated on taxes his um if his uh he has cheated on taxes his whole career as far as I can tell whole career as far as I can tell whole career as far as I can tell he could easily be indicted for the he could easily be indicted for the he could easily be indicted for the state and federal taxes but those that state and federal taxes but those that state and federal taxes but those that they're not as sexy they're not as sexy they're not as sexy and um I think that um he's become a and um I think that um he's become a and um I think that um he's become a Target Target Target um by ambitious politicians ambitious um by ambitious politicians ambitious um by ambitious politicians ambitious prosecutors prosecutors prosecutors he has gotten some sympathy he has gotten some sympathy he has gotten some sympathy which he doesn't deserve and um which he doesn't deserve and um which he doesn't deserve and um a lot of it is is you've pardoned the a lot of it is is you've pardoned the a lot of it is is you've pardoned the phrase political correctness the better phrase political correctness the better phrase political correctness the better people are not supposed to be trumpers people are not supposed to be trumpers people are not supposed to be trumpers um I I I had an interesting experience um I I I had an interesting experience um I I I had an interesting experience about Trump I had two interesting about Trump I had two interesting about Trump I had two interesting experiences experiences experiences the more recent one was I was in the the more recent one was I was in the the more recent one was I was in the house of um house of um house of um Lauren Summers the former president of Lauren Summers the former president of Lauren Summers the former president of Harvard Harvard Harvard who is driven out by political who is driven out by political who is driven out by political correctness by the way he insulted women correctness by the way he insulted women correctness by the way he insulted women biologists biologists biologists um I was in his house when he was still um I was in his house when he was still um I was in his house when he was still president of Harvard president of Harvard president of Harvard uh when the Trump Hillary Clinton uh when the Trump Hillary Clinton uh when the Trump Hillary Clinton contest contest contest took place took place took place and I was with Elsa and I was with Elsa and I was with Elsa um we were invited to Summer's house um we were invited to Summer's house um we were invited to Summer's house in Brookline in Brookline in Brookline and um and um and um it looked like Hillary was going to win it looked like Hillary was going to win it looked like Hillary was going to win and the Harvard faculty members they and the Harvard faculty members they and the Harvard faculty members they were all celebrating they were all were all celebrating they were all were all celebrating they were all figuring out what their cabinet figuring out what their cabinet figuring out what their cabinet positions were going to be blah blah

positions were going to be blah blah positions were going to be blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah and then about 11 30 at night all of a and then about 11 30 at night all of a and then about 11 30 at night all of a sudden it was announced and in terms of sudden it was announced and in terms of sudden it was announced and in terms of electoral votes Trump had just geeked electoral votes Trump had just geeked electoral votes Trump had just geeked out of a victory that Hillary beat him out of a victory that Hillary beat him out of a victory that Hillary beat him in the popular vote but he had won the in the popular vote but he had won the in the popular vote but he had won the Electoral College Electoral College Electoral College and there was a immediate depression and there was a immediate depression and there was a immediate depression and um and um and um like quiet over the room but we removed like quiet over the room but we removed like quiet over the room but we removed him absolutely stolen salad him absolutely stolen salad him absolutely stolen salad and they they were all uh you know and they they were all uh you know and they they were all uh you know disappointed disappointed disappointed well that was a memorable moment and it well that was a memorable moment and it well that was a memorable moment and it it told me that it told me that it told me that they were a little bit too overconfident they were a little bit too overconfident they were a little bit too overconfident and they they were savoring and they they were savoring and they they were savoring being part of a presidential being part of a presidential being part of a presidential Administration Administration Administration ambition had been thwarted uh I'm not a ambition had been thwarted uh I'm not a ambition had been thwarted uh I'm not a great fan of preening ambition I think great fan of preening ambition I think great fan of preening ambition I think it blinds people to realities and the it blinds people to realities and the it blinds people to realities and the resulting arrogance from such ambition resulting arrogance from such ambition resulting arrogance from such ambition and the arrogance yes it's one of the and the arrogance yes it's one of the and the arrogance yes it's one of the reasons I didn't accept Jim vorenberg's reasons I didn't accept Jim vorenberg's reasons I didn't accept Jim vorenberg's offer to be part of the academic offer to be part of the academic offer to be part of the academic Community I mean I represent professors Community I mean I represent professors Community I mean I represent professors I have friends who are professors I I have friends who are professors I I have friends who are professors I represent students I have friends who represent students I have friends who represent students I have friends who are students are students are students um and uh I have a great regard for um and uh I have a great regard for um and uh I have a great regard for universities in higher education universities in higher education universities in higher education um but I was not about to become part of um but I was not about to become part of um but I was not about to become part of a culture I thought that it was not good a culture I thought that it was not good a culture I thought that it was not good for me and not good for the institution for me and not good for the institution for me and not good for the institution either that can a culture that can breed

either that can a culture that can breed either that can a culture that can breed arrogance yes self-importance yeah arrogance yes self-importance yeah arrogance yes self-importance yeah and I in a sense the election of Donald and I in a sense the election of Donald and I in a sense the election of Donald Trump was a big Fu to such correct which Trump was a big Fu to such correct which Trump was a big Fu to such correct which is why I think he why I think he he is why I think he why I think he he is why I think he why I think he he managed to uh to pull it off managed to uh to pull it off managed to uh to pull it off um um um the jump top is a little bit uh what do the jump top is a little bit uh what do the jump top is a little bit uh what do you think about something you've written you think about something you've written you think about something you've written about uh what do you think about the about uh what do you think about the about uh what do you think about the mass surveillance programs by the NSA mass surveillance programs by the NSA mass surveillance programs by the NSA and also probably by other organizations and also probably by other organizations and also probably by other organizations CIA FBI and others CIA FBI and others CIA FBI and others um and broadly what do you think about um and broadly what do you think about um and broadly what do you think about the importance of privacy for the the importance of privacy for the the importance of privacy for the American citizen okay I believe that the American citizen okay I believe that the American citizen okay I believe that the FBI FBI FBI should be abolished should be abolished should be abolished because I believe that its culture was because I believe that its culture was because I believe that its culture was so corrupted by its first director John so corrupted by its first director John so corrupted by its first director John Edgar Hoover Edgar Hoover Edgar Hoover J Edgar Hoover J Edgar Hoover J Edgar Hoover that it is impossible to reform the FBI that it is impossible to reform the FBI that it is impossible to reform the FBI to make its uh agents honest to make its uh agents honest to make its uh agents honest to force them to obey the Constitution to force them to obey the Constitution to force them to obey the Constitution the the first fourth and fifth the the first fourth and fifth the the first fourth and fifth amendments especially amendments especially amendments especially um um um and it's a culture that cannot be and it's a culture that cannot be and it's a culture that cannot be changed changed changed Hoover established the culture and no Hoover established the culture and no Hoover established the culture and no FBI director since has been able to FBI director since has been able to FBI director since has been able to change it change it change it if you go online if you go online if you go online I did on YouTube a video

I did on YouTube a video I did on YouTube a video for the ACLU of Massachusetts it was for the ACLU of Massachusetts it was for the ACLU of Massachusetts it was when I was on the board it was probably when I was on the board it was probably when I was on the board it was probably when I was president of the board I was when I was president of the board I was when I was president of the board I was president of the board for two years I president of the board for two years I president of the board for two years I was on the board for 20 years was on the board for 20 years was on the board for 20 years and I did a a video about advising and I did a a video about advising and I did a a video about advising people to never ever ever talk to an FBI people to never ever ever talk to an FBI people to never ever ever talk to an FBI agent when they come knocking on your agent when they come knocking on your agent when they come knocking on your door door door can you uh briefly explain the intuition can you uh briefly explain the intuition can you uh briefly explain the intuition yes why not to talk to the FBI they have yes why not to talk to the FBI they have yes why not to talk to the FBI they have a system when they come in and interview a system when they come in and interview a system when they come in and interview you you you two agents show up never one two agents show up never one two agents show up never one one asked the question the other one one asked the question the other one one asked the question the other one takes notes the the note-taking agent takes notes the the note-taking agent takes notes the the note-taking agent takes notes and it goes back to the takes notes and it goes back to the takes notes and it goes back to the office and types up a report called a office and types up a report called a office and types up a report called a form 302 form 302 form 302 which is the official record of what was which is the official record of what was which is the official record of what was asked and answered asked and answered asked and answered so when I have a client interviewed by so when I have a client interviewed by so when I have a client interviewed by the FBI I show up the FBI I show up the FBI I show up and and and I always agree I almost always agree to I always agree I almost always agree to I always agree I almost always agree to the interview the interview the interview but I bring a tape recorder but I bring a tape recorder but I bring a tape recorder and I say all right I'm going to tape and I say all right I'm going to tape and I say all right I'm going to tape this and they say well we're by this and they say well we're by this and they say well we're by regulation we're not allowed to do the regulation we're not allowed to do the regulation we're not allowed to do the interview of the state interview of the state interview of the state the if the record is the 302 the agent the if the record is the 302 the agent the if the record is the 302 the agent is taking notes I say well I have a is taking notes I say well I have a is taking notes I say well I have a policy too my policy is to never allow a policy too my policy is to never allow a policy too my policy is to never allow a client to be interviewed unless it's client to be interviewed unless it's client to be interviewed unless it's recorded

recorded recorded so it's unfortunate but we're gonna have so it's unfortunate but we're gonna have so it's unfortunate but we're gonna have to end this meeting and the Agents get to end this meeting and the Agents get to end this meeting and the Agents get up and leave up and leave up and leave and the I have never seen a form 302 and the I have never seen a form 302 and the I have never seen a form 302 that I considered to be accurate the that I considered to be accurate the that I considered to be accurate the agents work write down what they agents work write down what they agents work write down what they wish you had said yeah rather than what wish you had said yeah rather than what wish you had said yeah rather than what you said it is a holy corrupt you said it is a holy corrupt you said it is a holy corrupt organization that has not gotten any organization that has not gotten any organization that has not gotten any better since the Hoover died and better since the Hoover died and better since the Hoover died and fundamentally the the corruption is in fundamentally the the corruption is in fundamentally the the corruption is in the culture that is uh resisting the the the culture that is uh resisting the the the culture that is uh resisting the the the Constitution of the United States the Constitution of the United States the Constitution of the United States correct the first and fourth and fifth correct the first and fourth and fifth correct the first and fourth and fifth correct it's not it's not Financial correct it's not it's not Financial correct it's not it's not Financial corruption it is um it is corruption of corruption it is um it is corruption of corruption it is um it is corruption of the mission the mission the mission and um I think you should be abolished and um I think you should be abolished and um I think you should be abolished and if we need a federal investigative and if we need a federal investigative and if we need a federal investigative agency uh should be a new name a new agency uh should be a new name a new agency uh should be a new name a new culture wholly new members a new culture wholly new members a new culture wholly new members a new director and um the it is it's director and um the it is it's director and um the it is it's impossible to uh to reform the FBI can impossible to uh to reform the FBI can impossible to uh to reform the FBI can you elaborate on what exactly is broken you elaborate on what exactly is broken you elaborate on what exactly is broken about the FBI is it the the uh the about the FBI is it the the uh the about the FBI is it the the uh the famous saying uh from uh Stalin's KGB famous saying uh from uh Stalin's KGB famous saying uh from uh Stalin's KGB head uh Barry uh show me the man and head uh Barry uh show me the man and head uh Barry uh show me the man and I'll show you the crime right is it that I'll show you the crime right is it that I'll show you the crime right is it that kind of process it's it's that kind of kind of process it's it's that kind of kind of process it's it's that kind of process they decide who's guilty and process they decide who's guilty and process they decide who's guilty and then they go about concocting a case then they go about concocting a case then they go about concocting a case against the person who's who who they against the person who's who who they against the person who's who who they want to get so the goal is not to find want to get so the goal is not to find want to get so the goal is not to find the truth or

the truth or the truth or uh to solve the solve the case and close uh to solve the solve the case and close uh to solve the solve the case and close it in in Kansas City reputations it in in Kansas City reputations it in in Kansas City reputations but to show that an innocent man is but to show that an innocent man is but to show that an innocent man is guilty is also solving the case from guilty is also solving the case from guilty is also solving the case from their perspective their perspective their perspective so to falsely so to falsely so to falsely convict or uh falsely imprisoned an convict or uh falsely imprisoned an convict or uh falsely imprisoned an innocent man is also solving the case innocent man is also solving the case innocent man is also solving the case well it closes the case if they fall well it closes the case if they fall well it closes the case if they fall asleep in prison innocent man asleep in prison innocent man asleep in prison innocent man their issues within closing cases their issues within closing cases their issues within closing cases so that's the FBI but uh broadly so that's the FBI but uh broadly so that's the FBI but uh broadly speaking about the surveillance aspect speaking about the surveillance aspect speaking about the surveillance aspect of this what are your views on the the of this what are your views on the the of this what are your views on the the the right that an American citizen has the right that an American citizen has the right that an American citizen has to privacy well to privacy well to privacy well um wiretapping and electronic um wiretapping and electronic um wiretapping and electronic surveillance are very very intrusive surveillance are very very intrusive surveillance are very very intrusive and um I think that the and um I think that the and um I think that the circumstance circumstance circumstance that these tools are used should be that these tools are used should be that these tools are used should be narrowed narrowed narrowed for example they're used in a lot of for example they're used in a lot of for example they're used in a lot of drug cases drug cases drug cases I don't think drugs should be illegal in I don't think drugs should be illegal in I don't think drugs should be illegal in any event I certainly think that it's a any event I certainly think that it's a any event I certainly think that it's a terrible violation of privacy terrible violation of privacy terrible violation of privacy to to use why it's happening in the drug to to use why it's happening in the drug to to use why it's happening in the drug case case case I could see it in cases of murder um possibly in cases of serious um possibly in cases of serious extortion extortion extortion but on other kinds of kinds of crimes but on other kinds of kinds of crimes but on other kinds of kinds of crimes with a wiretap especially drug cases I with a wiretap especially drug cases I with a wiretap especially drug cases I believe drugs should all be legalized believe drugs should all be legalized believe drugs should all be legalized anyway

anyway anyway um I think it's um the the the the the um I think it's um the the the the the um I think it's um the the the the the price we pay as a society is not worth price we pay as a society is not worth price we pay as a society is not worth it there's uh on the Wikipedia page for it there's uh on the Wikipedia page for it there's uh on the Wikipedia page for nothing to hide you're cited in fact nothing to hide you're cited in fact nothing to hide you're cited in fact your book that you gave me today three your book that you gave me today three your book that you gave me today three felonies a day excited so nothing to felonies a day excited so nothing to felonies a day excited so nothing to hide argument that's an argument that uh hide argument that's an argument that uh hide argument that's an argument that uh if you're a well-behaved citizen if you're a well-behaved citizen if you're a well-behaved citizen you have nothing to hide in there for you have nothing to hide in there for you have nothing to hide in there for your privacy can be violated well the your privacy can be violated well the your privacy can be violated well the problem is that under the federal problem is that under the federal problem is that under the federal criminal code criminal code criminal code particularly the federal criminal code particularly the federal criminal code particularly the federal criminal code um um um it is very easy to be charged with a it is very easy to be charged with a it is very easy to be charged with a crime now why under the Constitution under the Constitution the federal government does not have the federal government does not have the federal government does not have plenary criminal jurisdiction that's up plenary criminal jurisdiction that's up plenary criminal jurisdiction that's up to the state how is it the thief feds how is it the thief feds indict in so many areas of American Life indict in so many areas of American Life indict in so many areas of American Life it's because the Supreme Court has it's because the Supreme Court has it's because the Supreme Court has allowed the following absolutely insane allowed the following absolutely insane allowed the following absolutely insane situation to prevail situation to prevail situation to prevail anything can be made a federal crime anything can be made a federal crime anything can be made a federal crime if in the course of the commission of if in the course of the commission of if in the course of the commission of the crime the crime the crime the means of Interstate communication or the means of Interstate communication or the means of Interstate communication or travel or used travel or used travel or used that means that if you commit a crime that means that if you commit a crime that means that if you commit a crime which is ordinarily would be a state which is ordinarily would be a state which is ordinarily would be a state crime and you use the telephone

crime and you use the telephone crime and you use the telephone or you send a letter or you send a letter or you send a letter it suddenly becomes Federal it suddenly becomes Federal it suddenly becomes Federal that means that the limitation that the that means that the limitation that the that means that the limitation that the founding fathers who wrote the founding fathers who wrote the founding fathers who wrote the Constitution Constitution Constitution intended to keep the feds out of intended to keep the feds out of intended to keep the feds out of daily life daily life daily life and to give that jurisdiction to the and to give that jurisdiction to the and to give that jurisdiction to the state state state has been completely thwarted has been completely thwarted has been completely thwarted because I can't think of we a case because I can't think of we a case because I can't think of we a case where somebody doesn't use a telephone where somebody doesn't use a telephone where somebody doesn't use a telephone in the course of in the course of in the course of planning discussing something that's planning discussing something that's planning discussing something that's arguably Criminal arguably Criminal arguably Criminal and so this limited Authority the and so this limited Authority the and so this limited Authority the federal government to bring to bring charges in criminal cases is illusory charges in criminal cases is illusory charges in criminal cases is illusory feds can indict a ham sandwich feds can indict a ham sandwich feds can indict a ham sandwich so basically everybody's guilty and if so basically everybody's guilty and if so basically everybody's guilty and if uh if if the if the feds want to bring uh if if the if the feds want to bring uh if if the if the feds want to bring you in they can they're going to find a you in they can they're going to find a you in they can they're going to find a way and that allows them way and that allows them way and that allows them to terrorize people who are dissidents to terrorize people who are dissidents to terrorize people who are dissidents yeah what is yeah what is yeah what is broken what works about the American broken what works about the American broken what works about the American criminal justice system from your criminal justice system from your criminal justice system from your perspective from the jury the jury perspective from the jury the jury perspective from the jury the jury system the jury system yes you like the system the jury system yes you like the system the jury system yes you like the jury system everyday citizens jury system everyday citizens jury system everyday citizens representing 12 ordinary people have to representing 12 ordinary people have to representing 12 ordinary people have to agree unanimously agree unanimously agree unanimously in order to convict in order to convict in order to convict uh what do you think about the highest

uh what do you think about the highest uh what do you think about the highest court in the land the Supreme Court what court in the land the Supreme Court what court in the land the Supreme Court what works and what is broken about the works and what is broken about the works and what is broken about the Supreme Court as an institution what are Supreme Court as an institution what are Supreme Court as an institution what are its strengths and weaknesses well the its strengths and weaknesses well the its strengths and weaknesses well the Supreme Court is is is Supreme Court is is is Supreme Court is is is um unfortunately fairly political um unfortunately fairly political um unfortunately fairly political and um and um and um the current Supreme Court is overruling the current Supreme Court is overruling the current Supreme Court is overruling precedence precedence precedence which are it's really improper which are it's really improper which are it's really improper imprecedence cannot should not be imprecedence cannot should not be imprecedence cannot should not be overruled so easily overruled so easily overruled so easily um it's about to over really um it's about to over really um it's about to over really affirmative action affirmative action affirmative action now I'm opposed to affirmative action I now I'm opposed to affirmative action I now I'm opposed to affirmative action I think I made that clear earlier in our think I made that clear earlier in our think I made that clear earlier in our discussion discussion discussion but still but still but still um it's a precedent and it should be um it's a precedent and it should be um it's a precedent and it should be given some respect given some respect given some respect but in order to um in order to uh in order to propagate a more in order to propagate a more conservative conservative conservative agenda the court is treating precedence agenda the court is treating precedence agenda the court is treating precedence as if it doesn't have any any role and as if it doesn't have any any role and as if it doesn't have any any role and that's a huge mistake that's a huge mistake that's a huge mistake um some of the congressmen in the um some of the congressmen in the um some of the congressmen in the Democratic side are looking to enlarge Democratic side are looking to enlarge Democratic side are looking to enlarge the court the court the court in order to in order to in order to basically do what Franklin Roosevelt was basically do what Franklin Roosevelt was basically do what Franklin Roosevelt was not able to do not able to do not able to do um and and that is a change the Court's um and and that is a change the Court's um and and that is a change the Court's philosophy philosophy philosophy but I think that's very short-sighted but I think that's very short-sighted but I think that's very short-sighted because this is a longer because this is a longer because this is a longer this is a long game this is the Republic

this is a long game this is the Republic this is a long game this is the Republic we have here we have here we have here and and and anyone who tries to for example enlarge anyone who tries to for example enlarge anyone who tries to for example enlarge the court from 9 to 12 in order to get the court from 9 to 12 in order to get the court from 9 to 12 in order to get more more more um liberals on the court um liberals on the court um liberals on the court then some other Administration will try then some other Administration will try then some other Administration will try to enlarge it from 12 to 15 to get more to enlarge it from 12 to 15 to get more to enlarge it from 12 to 15 to get more liberals on the court liberals on the court liberals on the court you have a you have a you have a a constant fiddling with the very a constant fiddling with the very a constant fiddling with the very important institution so the law should important institution so the law should important institution so the law should have more lasting power than the have more lasting power than the have more lasting power than the bickering the political bickering of the bickering the political bickering of the bickering the political bickering of the day correct let me ask you day correct let me ask you day correct let me ask you you've lived one heck of a life you've lived one heck of a life you've lived one heck of a life and um and um and um fought a lot of battles and continue to fought a lot of battles and continue to fought a lot of battles and continue to do so with the Harvard Board of do so with the Harvard Board of do so with the Harvard Board of overseers so first of all thank you for overseers so first of all thank you for overseers so first of all thank you for that that that but uh but uh but uh we're all human we're all Mortal do you we're all human we're all Mortal do you we're all human we're all Mortal do you Ponder your death do you Ponder your Ponder your death do you Ponder your Ponder your death do you Ponder your mortality are you afraid of it well let mortality are you afraid of it well let mortality are you afraid of it well let me say this my father died at 48. me say this my father died at 48. me say this my father died at 48. he died because he smoked he died at 48 he died because he smoked he died at 48 he died because he smoked he died at 48 because he smoked four packs of camels a because he smoked four packs of camels a because he smoked four packs of camels a day day day he got a massive heart attack at 43. he he got a massive heart attack at 43. he he got a massive heart attack at 43. he continued to smoke despite this that continued to smoke despite this that continued to smoke despite this that he died at 48 so I did not expect to he died at 48 so I did not expect to he died at 48 so I did not expect to live this alone live this alone live this alone because I thought it was genetic it because I thought it was genetic it because I thought it was genetic it turns out it was cigarettes turns out it was cigarettes turns out it was cigarettes so here I am I'm going to be 81 on May so here I am I'm going to be 81 on May so here I am I'm going to be 81 on May 10th I was born on May 10th 1942 which 10th I was born on May 10th 1942 which 10th I was born on May 10th 1942 which is Mother's Day coincidentally is Mother's Day coincidentally is Mother's Day coincidentally and I realize I'm not going to live and I realize I'm not going to live and I realize I'm not going to live forever

forever forever I also I also I also take pride in the fact that I have take pride in the fact that I have take pride in the fact that I have demonstrated that a lawyer does not have demonstrated that a lawyer does not have demonstrated that a lawyer does not have to go with a law firm in order to manage to go with a law firm in order to manage to go with a law firm in order to manage to make it you can make your own right to make it you can make your own right to make it you can make your own right you wrote what's the word write your own you wrote what's the word write your own you wrote what's the word write your own ticket ticket ticket I've done that I've done that I've done that um um um I agree that I've had a an Elite I agree that I've had a an Elite I agree that I've had a an Elite Education I went to Princeton and Education I went to Princeton and Education I went to Princeton and Harvard Law School Harvard Law School Harvard Law School but I don't think you have to but I don't think you have to but I don't think you have to necessarily go to a lead institution in necessarily go to a lead institution in necessarily go to a lead institution in order to really make it order to really make it order to really make it you need to work hard you need to work hard you need to work hard that you shouldn't put yourself in a that you shouldn't put yourself in a that you shouldn't put yourself in a place where you're not going to feel place where you're not going to feel place where you're not going to feel comfortable and what's the word comfortable and what's the word comfortable and what's the word empowered like I refuse to empowered like I refuse to empowered like I refuse to take Warren Birds take Warren Birds take Warren Birds invitation for potato track position at invitation for potato track position at invitation for potato track position at Harvard Law School Harvard Law School Harvard Law School um I'll I'll tell you one one other story I'll I'll tell you one one other story that illustrates this that illustrates this that illustrates this I was originally pre-med my freshman sat I was originally pre-med my freshman sat I was originally pre-med my freshman sat four years at Princeton I was in the four years at Princeton I was in the four years at Princeton I was in the Pre-Med program why Pre-Med program why Pre-Med program why because my parents because my parents because my parents wanted me to marry the daughter of our wanted me to marry the daughter of our wanted me to marry the daughter of our family physician family physician family physician and the idea was and the idea was and the idea was to go to medical school I was going to to go to medical school I was going to to go to medical school I was going to go into medical practice with him in go into medical practice with him in go into medical practice with him in Hackensack New Jersey we had moved from Brooklyn at the time we had moved from Brooklyn at the time the long story why we had to move from the long story why we had to move from the long story why we had to move from Brooklyn had to do with my father's

Brooklyn had to do with my father's Brooklyn had to do with my father's having a problem with the furries Union having a problem with the furries Union having a problem with the furries Union and having his life threatened and having his life threatened and having his life threatened and we moved to Maywood New Jersey and we moved to Maywood New Jersey and we moved to Maywood New Jersey because he got a job in first shop in because he got a job in first shop in because he got a job in first shop in Passaic New Jersey Passaic New Jersey Passaic New Jersey and a family physician they had three and a family physician they had three and a family physician they had three daughters the oldest of whom was my age daughters the oldest of whom was my age daughters the oldest of whom was my age she went to Hackensack High School she went to Hackensack High School she went to Hackensack High School I went to Bogota High School I went to Bogota High School I went to Bogota High School the both of them both North Bergen the both of them both North Bergen the both of them both North Bergen County County County and the idea was that and the idea was that and the idea was that she and I were going to marry she and I were going to marry she and I were going to marry I was going to become I was in a medical I was going to become I was in a medical I was going to become I was in a medical school I was going to take become a school I was going to take become a school I was going to take become a partner partner partner of her father in his medical practice in of her father in his medical practice in of her father in his medical practice in Hackensack Hackensack Hackensack when he retired I was going to inherit when he retired I was going to inherit when he retired I was going to inherit the practice the practice the practice this this scenario was concocted by this this scenario was concocted by this this scenario was concocted by Carolyn's mother and my mother in my sophomore year of that Princeton I in my sophomore year of that Princeton I won a fellowship to spend that summer won a fellowship to spend that summer won a fellowship to spend that summer between my sophomore junior in Paris between my sophomore junior in Paris between my sophomore junior in Paris I was fluent by then I was fluent by then I was fluent by then I had taken accelerated French course my I had taken accelerated French course my I had taken accelerated French course my freshman sophomore year freshman sophomore year freshman sophomore year and um I went to Paris and um I went to Paris and um I went to Paris it was my first time out of the country it was my first time out of the country it was my first time out of the country and um and um and um I spent the entire summer working I spent the entire summer working I spent the entire summer working supporting myself and participate the supporting myself and participate the supporting myself and participate the airfare and I I earned money airfare and I I earned money airfare and I I earned money for room board

for room board for room board and I thought about my life and I and I thought about my life and I and I thought about my life and I decided number one I didn't want to be a decided number one I didn't want to be a decided number one I didn't want to be a physician I wanted to be a lawyer physician I wanted to be a lawyer physician I wanted to be a lawyer number two I didn't want to marry number two I didn't want to marry number two I didn't want to marry Carolyn Carolyn Carolyn and I came back I changed for pre-med to and I came back I changed for pre-med to and I came back I changed for pre-med to pre-law pre-law pre-law I broke up with Carolyn I broke up with Carolyn I broke up with Carolyn who is by that time a school at Douglas who is by that time a school at Douglas who is by that time a school at Douglas right down the road from Princeton she right down the road from Princeton she right down the road from Princeton she had followed me had followed me had followed me or I had followed her or I had followed her or I had followed her and um and um and um my life suddenly took a wholly different my life suddenly took a wholly different my life suddenly took a wholly different term term term so that summer in Paris Paris so that summer in Paris Paris so that summer in Paris Paris had a outsized effect of my life had a outsized effect of my life had a outsized effect of my life every year the Bravo theater shows every year the Bravo theater shows every year the Bravo theater shows Casablanca Casablanca Casablanca where Bogart has this great line where Bogart has this great line where Bogart has this great line he says will always have Paris he says will always have Paris he says will always have Paris and I think to myself I always just said and I think to myself I always just said and I think to myself I always just said Elsa we used to see Pastor Blanca every Elsa we used to see Pastor Blanca every Elsa we used to see Pastor Blanca every Valentine's Day Valentine's Day Valentine's Day because it was such an important movie because it was such an important movie because it was such an important movie to me because Paris was transformative to me because Paris was transformative to me because Paris was transformative in my life and we went to Paris every in my life and we went to Paris every in my life and we went to Paris every year during my vacation we went to Paris year during my vacation we went to Paris year during my vacation we went to Paris that was wherever she took some great that was wherever she took some great that was wherever she took some great pictures this high and this high they were this high and this high they were hanging up in the house hanging up in the house hanging up in the house and um so I always I I and um so I always I I and um so I always I I and even after Elsa's death I've seen

and even after Elsa's death I've seen and even after Elsa's death I've seen Casablanca twice now Casablanca twice now Casablanca twice now she she died in the 2020. she she died in the 2020. she she died in the 2020. and um I'm always I always think people and um I'm always I always think people and um I'm always I always think people always have pairs always have pairs always have pairs we'll always have Paris well Harvey well Harvey um like I said I hope I hope you're very um like I said I hope I hope you're very um like I said I hope I hope you're very successful in your successful in your successful in your um in your run for the Harvard Board of um in your run for the Harvard Board of um in your run for the Harvard Board of overseers I think what you stand for in overseers I think what you stand for in overseers I think what you stand for in the realm of freedom of speech is uh the realm of freedom of speech is uh the realm of freedom of speech is uh I think the thing that makes these I think the thing that makes these I think the thing that makes these universities great institutions in universities great institutions in universities great institutions in American culture and American culture and American culture and um I'll do everything I can to help you um I'll do everything I can to help you um I'll do everything I can to help you succeed and I just uh I'm really succeed and I just uh I'm really succeed and I just uh I'm really grateful for all the work you've done grateful for all the work you've done grateful for all the work you've done and I'm grateful that you will talk with and I'm grateful that you will talk with and I'm grateful that you will talk with me today this is amazing me today this is amazing me today this is amazing thank you thank you thank you thanks for listening to this thanks for listening to this thanks for listening to this conversation with Harvey silverglade to conversation with Harvey silverglade to conversation with Harvey silverglade to support this podcast please check out support this podcast please check out support this podcast please check out our sponsors in the description and now our sponsors in the description and now our sponsors in the description and now let me leave you some words from Harry S let me leave you some words from Harry S let me leave you some words from Harry S Truman Truman Truman once the government is committed to the once the government is committed to the once the government is committed to the principle of silencing the voice of the principle of silencing the voice of the principle of silencing the voice of the opposition it is only one way to go and opposition it is only one way to go and opposition it is only one way to go and that is down the path of increasingly that is down the path of increasingly that is down the path of increasingly repressive measures repressive measures repressive measures until it becomes the source of Terror to until it becomes the source of Terror to until it becomes the source of Terror to all its citizens and creates a country all its citizens and creates a country all its citizens and creates a country where everyone lives in fear where everyone lives in fear where everyone lives in fear thank you for listening and hope to see thank you for listening and hope to see thank you for listening and hope to see you next time