Edward Frenkel: Reality is a Paradox - Mathematics, Physics, Truth & Love | Lex Fridman Podcast #370

there is a famous story about Einstein there is a famous story about Einstein that he used to you know go think think that he used to you know go think think that he used to you know go think think and then go for a walk and like he would and then go for a walk and like he would and then go for a walk and like he would whistle and sometimes so I remember the whistle and sometimes so I remember the whistle and sometimes so I remember the first time I heard this story first time I heard this story first time I heard this story I thought how interesting so the I thought how interesting so the I thought how interesting so the coincidence that he came to him when he coincidence that he came to him when he coincidence that he came to him when he was whistling but in fact it's not this was whistling but in fact it's not this was whistling but in fact it's not this is how it works in some sense that is how it works in some sense that is how it works in some sense that you have to prepare for it but then the you have to prepare for it but then the you have to prepare for it but then the moment it happens when you stop thinking moment it happens when you stop thinking moment it happens when you stop thinking actually it's okay the moment of actually it's okay the moment of actually it's okay the moment of Discovery is the moment when thinking Discovery is the moment when thinking Discovery is the moment when thinking stops and you know you kind of you kind stops and you know you kind of you kind stops and you know you kind of you kind of almost become that truth that you're of almost become that truth that you're of almost become that truth that you're seeking the following is a conversation with the following is a conversation with Edward Frankel one of the greatest Edward Frankel one of the greatest Edward Frankel one of the greatest living mathematicians doing research on living mathematicians doing research on living mathematicians doing research on the interface of mathematics and quantum the interface of mathematics and quantum the interface of mathematics and quantum physics with an emphasis on the physics with an emphasis on the physics with an emphasis on the langlands program which he describes as langlands program which he describes as langlands program which he describes as a grand unified theory of mathematics he a grand unified theory of mathematics he a grand unified theory of mathematics he also is the author of love and math the also is the author of love and math the also is the author of love and math the heart of hidden reality heart of hidden reality heart of hidden reality this is the Lex Friedman podcast to this is the Lex Friedman podcast to this is the Lex Friedman podcast to support it please check out our sponsors support it please check out our sponsors support it please check out our sponsors in the description and now dear friends in the description and now dear friends in the description and now dear friends here's Edward Franco here's Edward Franco here's Edward Franco you open your book love and math with a you open your book love and math with a you open your book love and math with a question question question how does one become a mathematician how does one become a mathematician how does one become a mathematician there are many ways that this can happen there are many ways that this can happen there are many ways that this can happen let me tell you how it happened to me so let me tell you how it happened to me so let me tell you how it happened to me so how did it happen to you so first of all how did it happen to you so first of all how did it happen to you so first of all I grew up in the Soviet Union I grew up in the Soviet Union I grew up in the Soviet Union in a small town near Moscow in a small town near Moscow in a small town near Moscow called columna called columna called columna and I was a smart kid you know in school

and I was a smart kid you know in school and I was a smart kid you know in school but mathematics was probably my least but mathematics was probably my least but mathematics was probably my least favorite subject favorite subject favorite subject not because I couldn't do it I was you not because I couldn't do it I was you not because I couldn't do it I was you know a straight A student and I could do know a straight A student and I could do know a straight A student and I could do all the problems easily but I thought it all the problems easily but I thought it all the problems easily but I thought it was incredibly boring was incredibly boring was incredibly boring and and and um since the only math I knew was what um since the only math I knew was what um since the only math I knew was what was presented at school was presented at school was presented at school I thought that was it and I was like I thought that was it and I was like I thought that was it and I was like what kind of boring subject is this so what kind of boring subject is this so what kind of boring subject is this so what I really liked was physics what I really liked was physics what I really liked was physics and especially quantum physics so I was and especially quantum physics so I was and especially quantum physics so I was buying buying buying uh I would go to a bookstore and buy uh I would go to a bookstore and buy uh I would go to a bookstore and buy popular books about elementary particles popular books about elementary particles popular books about elementary particles and atoms and things like that and read and atoms and things like that and read and atoms and things like that and read them you know devour them them you know devour them them you know devour them and so I thought my dream was to become and so I thought my dream was to become and so I thought my dream was to become a theoretical physicist a theoretical physicist a theoretical physicist and to delve into this finer structure and to delve into this finer structure and to delve into this finer structure of the universe you know so then of the universe you know so then of the universe you know so then something happened when I was 15 years something happened when I was 15 years something happened when I was 15 years old uh it turns out that a friend of my old uh it turns out that a friend of my old uh it turns out that a friend of my parents parents parents was a mathematician who was a professor was a mathematician who was a professor was a mathematician who was a professor at the local College it was a small at the local College it was a small at the local College it was a small College preparing Educators and teachers College preparing Educators and teachers College preparing Educators and teachers it's a provincial Town imagine it's like it's a provincial Town imagine it's like it's a provincial Town imagine it's like a 117 kilometers from Moscow which would a 117 kilometers from Moscow which would a 117 kilometers from Moscow which would be something like 70 miles I guess you be something like 70 miles I guess you be something like 70 miles I guess you do the math I like how you remember the do the math I like how you remember the do the math I like how you remember the number exactly yeah it's not funny how number exactly yeah it's not funny how number exactly yeah it's not funny how we remember numbers yeah so his name was we remember numbers yeah so his name was we remember numbers yeah so his name was evgeny evgenievich Petrov yeah and if

evgeny evgenievich Petrov yeah and if evgeny evgenievich Petrov yeah and if this doesn't remind you of the great this doesn't remind you of the great this doesn't remind you of the great works of Russian literature then you works of Russian literature then you works of Russian literature then you haven't read them haven't read them haven't read them like War and Peace you know like with like War and Peace you know like with like War and Peace you know like with the patronym nickname yeah but this was the patronym nickname yeah but this was the patronym nickname yeah but this was all real this was all happening so my all real this was all happening so my all real this was all happening so my mom One Day by chance met is ganovic and mom One Day by chance met is ganovic and mom One Day by chance met is ganovic and told him about me told him about me told him about me but that was this bright kid and but that was this bright kid and but that was this bright kid and interested in physics interested in physics interested in physics and he said oh I want to meet him I'm and he said oh I want to meet him I'm and he said oh I want to meet him I'm going to convert him into math going to convert him into math going to convert him into math and my mom's like nah my ass he doesn't and my mom's like nah my ass he doesn't and my mom's like nah my ass he doesn't like mathematics so they said okay let's like mathematics so they said okay let's like mathematics so they said okay let's let's see what they can do let's see what they can do let's see what they can do so I went to see him so I'm about 15. so I went to see him so I'm about 15. so I went to see him so I'm about 15. and a bit a bit uh arrogant I would say and a bit a bit uh arrogant I would say and a bit a bit uh arrogant I would say you know like average teenager you know like average teenager you know like average teenager so he says to me so he says to me so he says to me so I hear that you are so I hear that you are so I hear that you are um interested in in physics Elementary um interested in in physics Elementary um interested in in physics Elementary particles I said yeah sure particles I said yeah sure particles I said yeah sure for example do you know what quirks for example do you know what quirks for example do you know what quirks and I said yes of course I know what and I said yes of course I know what and I said yes of course I know what quarks quarks are the you know quarks quarks are the you know quarks quarks are the you know constituents constituents constituents of particles like protons and neutrons of particles like protons and neutrons of particles like protons and neutrons and it was one of the greatest and it was one of the greatest and it was one of the greatest discoveries in theoretical physics in discoveries in theoretical physics in discoveries in theoretical physics in the 60s that those particles were not the 60s that those particles were not the 60s that those particles were not Elementary but in fact had the smaller Elementary but in fact had the smaller Elementary but in fact had the smaller parts parts parts and he said oh so then you probably know and he said oh so then you probably know and he said oh so then you probably know representation theory of the group su3 representation theory of the group su3 representation theory of the group su3 this is like as you worked so this is like as you worked so this is like as you worked so in fact in fact in fact I wanted to know what was what were the

I wanted to know what was what were the I wanted to know what was what were the underpinnings of those theories I knew underpinnings of those theories I knew underpinnings of those theories I knew the story I knew the narrative a new the story I knew the narrative a new the story I knew the narrative a new kind of this basic story of what this kind of this basic story of what this kind of this basic story of what this particles looked like but how did particles looked like but how did particles looked like but how did physicists come up with these ideas physicists come up with these ideas physicists come up with these ideas how were they able to theorize them how were they able to theorize them how were they able to theorize them and so I remembered you know like it was and so I remembered you know like it was and so I remembered you know like it was yesterday so he pulls out a book yesterday so he pulls out a book yesterday so he pulls out a book and it's kind of like it's like a Bible and it's kind of like it's like a Bible and it's kind of like it's like a Bible you know like a like a substantial book you know like a like a substantial book you know like a like a substantial book and he opens um somewhere in the middle and he opens um somewhere in the middle and he opens um somewhere in the middle and there I see the diagrams that I saw and there I see the diagrams that I saw and there I see the diagrams that I saw in popular books but in popular books in popular books but in popular books in popular books but in popular books there was no explanation and now I see there was no explanation and now I see there was no explanation and now I see all these weird symbols and equations all these weird symbols and equations all these weird symbols and equations it's clear that it is explained in there it's clear that it is explained in there it's clear that it is explained in there oh my God oh my God oh my God he said you think what they teach you at he said you think what they teach you at he said you think what they teach you at school is mathematics school is mathematics school is mathematics it's like no this is real mathematics it's like no this is real mathematics it's like no this is real mathematics so I was instantly converted so I was instantly converted so I was instantly converted that you understand the underpinnings of that you understand the underpinnings of that you understand the underpinnings of physical reality physical reality physical reality you have to understand what su3 is you you have to understand what su3 is you you have to understand what su3 is you have to learn what are groups what this have to learn what are groups what this have to learn what are groups what this group su3 what are representations of group su3 what are representations of group su3 what are representations of sc3 there was a coherent sc3 there was a coherent sc3 there was a coherent and beautiful I could appreciate the and beautiful I could appreciate the and beautiful I could appreciate the beauty even though I could not beauty even though I could not beauty even though I could not understand understand understand heads and tails of it but you were drawn heads and tails of it but you were drawn heads and tails of it but you were drawn to the the methodology the to the the methodology the to the the methodology the the the Machinery of all such the the Machinery of all such the the Machinery of all such understanding could be attained well in understanding could be attained well in understanding could be attained well in retrospect I think what I was really retrospect I think what I was really retrospect I think what I was really craving was a deeper understanding craving was a deeper understanding craving was a deeper understanding and up to that point the deepest that I and up to that point the deepest that I and up to that point the deepest that I could see was for those diagrams but for

could see was for those diagrams but for could see was for those diagrams but for that story that you know a proton that story that you know a proton that story that you know a proton consists of three quarks and the neutron consists of three quarks and the neutron consists of three quarks and the neutron consists of trick works and they're consists of trick works and they're consists of trick works and they're called up and down and so on called up and down and so on called up and down and so on but I didn't know but I didn't know but I didn't know that there was actually underneath that there was actually underneath that there was actually underneath beneath the surface there was this beneath the surface there was this beneath the surface there was this mathematical theory if you can just link mathematical theory if you can just link mathematical theory if you can just link around it what Drew you to quantum around it what Drew you to quantum around it what Drew you to quantum mechanics mechanics mechanics is there some romantic notion of is there some romantic notion of is there some romantic notion of understanding the universe well what is understanding the universe well what is understanding the universe well what is interesting to you is it the puzzle of interesting to you is it the puzzle of interesting to you is it the puzzle of it or is it like the philosophical thing it or is it like the philosophical thing it or is it like the philosophical thing now I am looking back yeah so um now I am looking back yeah so um now I am looking back yeah so um whatever I say about Edward at 15 yeah whatever I say about Edward at 15 yeah whatever I say about Edward at 15 yeah he's colored by he's colored by he's colored by uh my you know all my experiences that uh my you know all my experiences that uh my you know all my experiences that happen in in the meantime I should say happen in in the meantime I should say happen in in the meantime I should say current views and so on for the people current views and so on for the people current views and so on for the people who may not know you I think your book who may not know you I think your book who may not know you I think your book and your presentations kind of revealed and your presentations kind of revealed and your presentations kind of revealed that that 15 year old is still in there that that 15 year old is still in there that that 15 year old is still in there somewhere somewhere somewhere I think it is a conflict some of the joy I think it is a conflict some of the joy I think it is a conflict some of the joy he's probably still here now yes yeah in he's probably still here now yes yeah in he's probably still here now yes yeah in some way some way some way yeah I think it was a joy of Discovery yeah I think it was a joy of Discovery yeah I think it was a joy of Discovery and the joy of going deeper into the and the joy of going deeper into the and the joy of going deeper into the kind of the kind of the kind of the uh to the root uh to the so the deepest uh to the root uh to the so the deepest uh to the root uh to the so the deepest structures of the universe the secrets structures of the universe the secrets structures of the universe the secrets the the secrets and we may not discover the the secrets and we may not discover the the secrets and we may not discover all of them we may not be able to all of them we may not be able to all of them we may not be able to understand but we're going to try and go understand but we're going to try and go understand but we're going to try and go as far and as deep as we can I think as far and as deep as we can I think as far and as deep as we can I think that's what was the motivating factor in that's what was the motivating factor in that's what was the motivating factor in this this this yeah there's this mystery there's this

yeah there's this mystery there's this yeah there's this mystery there's this dark room and there's a few of these dark room and there's a few of these dark room and there's a few of these mathematical physicists they're able to mathematical physicists they're able to mathematical physicists they're able to shine shine shine a flashlight briefly into there a flashlight briefly into there a flashlight briefly into there uh we'll we'll talk about it but it also uh we'll we'll talk about it but it also uh we'll we'll talk about it but it also kind of makes me sad that there's so few kind of makes me sad that there's so few kind of makes me sad that there's so few of your kind that have the the of your kind that have the the of your kind that have the the flashlight to look into the room flashlight to look into the room flashlight to look into the room it's interesting it's interesting it's interesting um I don't think there are so few to be um I don't think there are so few to be um I don't think there are so few to be honest because I think I find a lot of honest because I think I find a lot of honest because I think I find a lot of people are actually interested if you do people are actually interested if you do people are actually interested if you do talk if you talk to people you know like talk if you talk to people you know like talk if you talk to people you know like some people you wouldn't expect to uh to some people you wouldn't expect to uh to some people you wouldn't expect to uh to be interested in this uh from all walks be interested in this uh from all walks be interested in this uh from all walks of life from people of of life from people of of life from people of all kinds of professions I tell them I'm all kinds of professions I tell them I'm all kinds of professions I tell them I'm a mathematician and the mathematician a mathematician and the mathematician a mathematician and the mathematician okay so that's a separate story a lot of okay so that's a separate story a lot of okay so that's a separate story a lot of people I think have been traumatized by people I think have been traumatized by people I think have been traumatized by their experience in their math classes their experience in their math classes their experience in their math classes we can talk about it later but then they we can talk about it later but then they we can talk about it later but then they ask me what kind of research I do and ask me what kind of research I do and ask me what kind of research I do and I I mentioned that I I work on the I I mentioned that I I work on the I I mentioned that I I work on the interface of math and quantum physics interface of math and quantum physics interface of math and quantum physics and their eyes light up and say oh and their eyes light up and say oh and their eyes light up and say oh quantum physics or like Einstein's quantum physics or like Einstein's quantum physics or like Einstein's relativity I'm really curious about it I relativity I'm really curious about it I relativity I'm really curious about it I watched this podcast or I watch that watched this podcast or I watch that watched this podcast or I watch that podcast you know and I've learned this podcast you know and I've learned this podcast you know and I've learned this it's like what do you think about that it's like what do you think about that it's like what do you think about that so I actually find that that actually so I actually find that that actually so I actually find that that actually physicists are doing great job at physicists are doing great job at physicists are doing great job at educating educating educating the public so to speak and uh in terms the public so to speak and uh in terms the public so to speak and uh in terms of of of um um um popular books and videos and so on popular books and videos and so on popular books and videos and so on mathematicians are behind that we're mathematicians are behind that we're mathematicians are behind that we're starting to catch up a little bit have

starting to catch up a little bit have starting to catch up a little bit have been starting last 10 years but when been starting last 10 years but when been starting last 10 years but when we're still behind but I think people we're still behind but I think people we're still behind but I think people are people are curious are people are curious are people are curious science is a is still a very much uh you science is a is still a very much uh you science is a is still a very much uh you know something that people want to learn know something that people want to learn know something that people want to learn because that's our kind of uh the best because that's our kind of uh the best because that's our kind of uh the best way we know to establish some sort of way we know to establish some sort of way we know to establish some sort of objective reality whatever that might be objective reality whatever that might be objective reality whatever that might be yeah to figure out this whole puzzle to yeah to figure out this whole puzzle to yeah to figure out this whole puzzle to figure out the secrets that the Universe figure out the secrets that the Universe figure out the secrets that the Universe holds things that we can agree on kind holds things that we can agree on kind holds things that we can agree on kind of you know like even though for me at of you know like even though for me at of you know like even though for me at this point I always you know make an this point I always you know make an this point I always you know make an argument that our physical theorists argument that our physical theorists argument that our physical theorists always change they get updated so you always change they get updated so you always change they get updated so you had Newton's theory of gravity had Newton's theory of gravity had Newton's theory of gravity then um Einstein's theory you know then um Einstein's theory you know then um Einstein's theory you know superseded it superseded it superseded it but in mathematics but in mathematics but in mathematics it seems that theories don't change it seems that theories don't change it seems that theories don't change Pythagoras Theorem Pythagoras Theorem Pythagoras Theorem has been the same for the last 2500 has been the same for the last 2500 has been the same for the last 2500 years x squared plus y squared equals z years x squared plus y squared equals z years x squared plus y squared equals z squared we don't expect that next year squared we don't expect that next year squared we don't expect that next year suddenly it will be z cubed you know so suddenly it will be z cubed you know so suddenly it will be z cubed you know so and so that to me is actually even more and so that to me is actually even more and so that to me is actually even more um hints even more at home how how much um hints even more at home how how much um hints even more at home how how much we are connected to each other because we are connected to each other because we are connected to each other because dagger's theory if you think about it or dagger's theory if you think about it or dagger's theory if you think about it or any other mathematical theorem any other mathematical theorem any other mathematical theorem means the same thing to anyone in the means the same thing to anyone in the means the same thing to anyone in the world today regardless of their cultural world today regardless of their cultural world today regardless of their cultural you know bringing uh religion you know you know bringing uh religion you know you know bringing uh religion you know ideas ideal ideology gender whatever ideas ideal ideology gender whatever ideas ideal ideology gender whatever nationality race whatever right and it nationality race whatever right and it nationality race whatever right and it has meant the same to everyone has meant the same to everyone has meant the same to everyone everywhere and most likely will mean the

everywhere and most likely will mean the everywhere and most likely will mean the same same same so that's to me kind of an antidote so that's to me kind of an antidote so that's to me kind of an antidote to the kind of to the kind of to the kind of divisiveness that we sometimes observe divisiveness that we sometimes observe divisiveness that we sometimes observe these days where it seems that we can't these days where it seems that we can't these days where it seems that we can't agree on anything agree on anything agree on anything to the political complexity of uh two to the political complexity of uh two to the political complexity of uh two plus two equals five and George Orwell's plus two equals five and George Orwell's plus two equals five and George Orwell's 1984. I was in the Soviet Union in 1984 1984. I was in the Soviet Union in 1984 1984. I was in the Soviet Union in 1984 and so in many ways I see that it was and so in many ways I see that it was and so in many ways I see that it was President the novel was present but we President the novel was present but we President the novel was present but we still have not found the dictator who still have not found the dictator who still have not found the dictator who would actually say two plus two equals would actually say two plus two equals would actually say two plus two equals five and would demand their citizens to five and would demand their citizens to five and would demand their citizens to repeat that the Knight is still young repeat that the Knight is still young repeat that the Knight is still young has not happened yet has not happened yet has not happened yet but it does feel like math and physics but it does feel like math and physics but it does feel like math and physics are both sneaking up to a deep truth are both sneaking up to a deep truth are both sneaking up to a deep truth from slightly different angles and you from slightly different angles and you from slightly different angles and you stand at the crossroads or at the stand at the crossroads or at the stand at the crossroads or at the intersection of the two it's interesting intersection of the two it's interesting intersection of the two it's interesting to ask what do you think is the to ask what do you think is the to ask what do you think is the difference between physics and difference between physics and difference between physics and Mathematics in the way physics and Mathematics in the way physics and Mathematics in the way physics and Mathematics look at the world Mathematics look at the world Mathematics look at the world there is actually an essential there is actually an essential there is actually an essential difference difference difference which is that physicists are interested which is that physicists are interested which is that physicists are interested in describing this universe in describing this universe in describing this universe okay mathematicians are interested okay mathematicians are interested okay mathematicians are interested describing all possible mathematical describing all possible mathematical describing all possible mathematical universes of which uh you know and some universes of which uh you know and some universes of which uh you know and some of our work I still consider myself more of our work I still consider myself more of our work I still consider myself more of a mathematician than a physicist My of a mathematician than a physicist My of a mathematician than a physicist My First Love for physics notwithstanding First Love for physics notwithstanding First Love for physics notwithstanding um mathematicians are in a way um mathematicians are in a way um mathematicians are in a way we have more diversity if you if you you we have more diversity if you if you you we have more diversity if you if you you might say so we we are accepting for

might say so we we are accepting for might say so we we are accepting for instance uh our universe uh has three instance uh our universe uh has three instance uh our universe uh has three special spatial dimensions and one time special spatial dimensions and one time special spatial dimensions and one time Dimension right so what I mean is that Dimension right so what I mean is that Dimension right so what I mean is that allegedly allegedly observed but that allegedly allegedly observed but that allegedly allegedly observed but that way I can observe today right so of way I can observe today right so of way I can observe today right so of course there are theories where there course there are theories where there course there are theories where there are some hidden Dimensions as well well are some hidden Dimensions as well well are some hidden Dimensions as well well let's just say absorb to observe let's just say absorb to observe let's just say absorb to observe dimensions dimensions dimensions um so this tabletop has two Dimensions um so this tabletop has two Dimensions um so this tabletop has two Dimensions because you can have two axes two because you can have two axes two because you can have two axes two coordinate axes now X and Y but then coordinate axes now X and Y but then coordinate axes now X and Y but then there is also a third one to describe there is also a third one to describe there is also a third one to describe the space of this room the space of this room the space of this room and then there's a Time Time Dimension and then there's a Time Time Dimension and then there's a Time Time Dimension so realistic theories of physics have to so realistic theories of physics have to so realistic theories of physics have to be be be about about about spaces of of three three dimensions or spaces of of three three dimensions or spaces of of three three dimensions or space time so four dimensions but space time so four dimensions but space time so four dimensions but mathematically we are just as interested mathematically we are just as interested mathematically we are just as interested in theories in 10 space time Dimensions in theories in 10 space time Dimensions in theories in 10 space time Dimensions or 11 or 25 or whatever or or infinite or 11 or 25 or whatever or or infinite or 11 or 25 or whatever or or infinite dimensional spaces you know dimensional spaces you know dimensional spaces you know so that's the difference so that's the difference so that's the difference on the other hand I have to give it to on the other hand I have to give it to on the other hand I have to give it to the physicists we don't have the same the physicists we don't have the same the physicists we don't have the same satisfaction that they have of having satisfaction that they have of having satisfaction that they have of having their theories their theories their theories um confirmed by an experiment we don't um confirmed by an experiment we don't um confirmed by an experiment we don't get to play with big machines like LHC get to play with big machines like LHC get to play with big machines like LHC in Geneva A Large Hadron Collider that in Geneva A Large Hadron Collider that in Geneva A Large Hadron Collider that recently discovered you know the Higgs recently discovered you know the Higgs recently discovered you know the Higgs boson and some other things boson and some other things boson and some other things for us it's all like a mental exercise for us it's all like a mental exercise for us it's all like a mental exercise in some sense we do we prove things by

in some sense we do we prove things by in some sense we do we prove things by using rules of logic and that's our way using rules of logic and that's our way using rules of logic and that's our way of confirming experimental confirmation of confirming experimental confirmation of confirming experimental confirmation if you will but I think we kind of I if you will but I think we kind of I if you will but I think we kind of I kind of Envy a little bit my friends kind of Envy a little bit my friends kind of Envy a little bit my friends visits that they they get to they get to visits that they they get to they get to visits that they they get to they get to experience this sort of these big toys experience this sort of these big toys experience this sort of these big toys you know and play with them but it does you know and play with them but it does you know and play with them but it does seem that sometimes as you've spoken seem that sometimes as you've spoken seem that sometimes as you've spoken about abstract mathematical Concepts map about abstract mathematical Concepts map about abstract mathematical Concepts map to reality and it seems to happen quite to reality and it seems to happen quite to reality and it seems to happen quite a bit that's right so the mathematics is a bit that's right so the mathematics is a bit that's right so the mathematics is the underpins physics obviously it's a the underpins physics obviously it's a the underpins physics obviously it's a language the the book of nature language the the book of nature language the the book of nature famously said it's written in the famously said it's written in the famously said it's written in the language of mathematics and the and the language of mathematics and the and the language of mathematics and the and the you know the the letters in it are the you know the the letters in it are the you know the the letters in it are the circles triangles and squares and those circles triangles and squares and those circles triangles and squares and those who don't know the language I'm who don't know the language I'm who don't know the language I'm paraphrasing paraphrasing paraphrasing are left to wander in the dark Labyrinth are left to wander in the dark Labyrinth are left to wander in the dark Labyrinth that's a famous quote from Galileo which that's a famous quote from Galileo which that's a famous quote from Galileo which is very true and has become even more is very true and has become even more is very true and has become even more true more recently in the in theoretical true more recently in the in theoretical true more recently in the in theoretical physics in the more in the most physics in the more in the most physics in the more in the most um actor of um actor of um actor of far out far out far out parts of the theoretical physics that parts of the theoretical physics that parts of the theoretical physics that have to do with Elementary particles and have to do with Elementary particles and have to do with Elementary particles and and as well as the the structure of the and as well as the the structure of the and as well as the the structure of the cosmos at the large scale what do you cosmos at the large scale what do you cosmos at the large scale what do you think of uh Max tag Mark or wrote the think of uh Max tag Mark or wrote the think of uh Max tag Mark or wrote the book mathematical universe book mathematical universe book mathematical universe so do you think just lingering on that so do you think just lingering on that so do you think just lingering on that point you think at the end of the day point you think at the end of the day point you think at the end of the day the future Generations will all be the future Generations will all be the future Generations will all be mathematicians mathematicians mathematicians meaning meaning the ones that deeply

meaning meaning the ones that deeply meaning meaning the ones that deeply understand the way the universe works at understand the way the universe works at understand the way the universe works at the core is it just the core is it just the core is it just mathematics mathematics mathematics at the core of you know I would say mathematics is one half of I would say mathematics is one half of the core so the book is called love and the core so the book is called love and the core so the book is called love and math yeah okay so these are the two math yeah okay so these are the two math yeah okay so these are the two pillars pillars pillars yeah in my view yes in other words you yeah in my view yes in other words you yeah in my view yes in other words you can't cover everything by math so can't cover everything by math so can't cover everything by math so mathematics gives you tools it gives you mathematics gives you tools it gives you mathematics gives you tools it gives you way up uh way up uh way up uh kind of a clear kind of a clear kind of a clear vision vision vision but mathematics by itself is not enough but mathematics by itself is not enough but mathematics by itself is not enough for one to have a harmonious and uh and for one to have a harmonious and uh and for one to have a harmonious and uh and balanced life you know so I I am balanced life you know so I I am balanced life you know so I I am suspicious of any theory that suspicious of any theory that suspicious of any theory that declares that everything is mathematics declares that everything is mathematics declares that everything is mathematics so math can generate things that are so math can generate things that are so math can generate things that are beautiful but it can't explain why it's beautiful but it can't explain why it's beautiful but it can't explain why it's beautiful Matthew could say is a way to beautiful Matthew could say is a way to beautiful Matthew could say is a way to discern patterns to find regularities in discern patterns to find regularities in discern patterns to find regularities in the universe and both physical and the universe and both physical and the universe and both physical and mental Universe the mathematics explores mental Universe the mathematics explores mental Universe the mathematics explores the mind as much as it explores the mind as much as it explores the mind as much as it explores um the physical world around us and it um the physical world around us and it um the physical world around us and it helps us to find those patterns helps us to find those patterns helps us to find those patterns um which kind of which makes our um which kind of which makes our um which kind of which makes our perception more sophisticated our perception more sophisticated our perception more sophisticated our ability to perceive things such as ability to perceive things such as ability to perceive things such as Beauty Beauty Beauty you know and you know and you know and it sharpens our ability to see to see it sharpens our ability to see to see it sharpens our ability to see to see beauty to understand Beauty so a world

beauty to understand Beauty so a world beauty to understand Beauty so a world becomes more complex becomes more complex becomes more complex from thinking that our from thinking that our from thinking that our that our that Earth is flat we go to that our that Earth is flat we go to that our that Earth is flat we go to realizing that it is round that is shape realizing that it is round that is shape realizing that it is round that is shape as a sphere as a sphere as a sphere so that we can actually travel around so that we can actually travel around so that we can actually travel around the Earth you know so there isn't a the Earth you know so there isn't a the Earth you know so there isn't a place where we hit the end so to speak place where we hit the end so to speak place where we hit the end so to speak and then and then and then um um um proceeding in the same vein then proceeding in the same vein then proceeding in the same vein then Einstein's general relativity Theory Einstein's general relativity Theory Einstein's general relativity Theory tells us that tells us that tells us that our space-time is not flat either our space-time is not flat either our space-time is not flat either this is much harder to to imagine the this is much harder to to imagine the this is much harder to to imagine the band a band three-dimensional or band a band three-dimensional or band a band three-dimensional or four-dimensional three-dimensional space four-dimensional three-dimensional space four-dimensional three-dimensional space or four-dimensional space time because or four-dimensional space time because or four-dimensional space time because this idea that the space around us is this idea that the space around us is this idea that the space around us is flat is so deeply entrenched and yet we flat is so deeply entrenched and yet we flat is so deeply entrenched and yet we know from this from this Theory know from this from this Theory know from this from this Theory and from the experiments that have and from the experiments that have and from the experiments that have confirmed it confirmed it confirmed it that that that a array of light bends around a star as a array of light bends around a star as a array of light bends around a star as if being attracted by the by the force if being attracted by the by the force if being attracted by the by the force of gravity but in fact the force of of gravity but in fact the force of of gravity but in fact the force of gravity is the bending it's just that gravity is the bending it's just that gravity is the bending it's just that it's not only depending on the space it's not only depending on the space it's not only depending on the space it's also the bending of space-time it's also the bending of space-time it's also the bending of space-time there is a curvature there is a curvature there is a curvature not only between special spatial not only between special spatial not only between special spatial dimensions dimensions dimensions the way parallels and meridians come the way parallels and meridians come the way parallels and meridians come together in a small scale they look like together in a small scale they look like together in a small scale they look like perpendicular lines but if you zoom out perpendicular lines but if you zoom out perpendicular lines but if you zoom out you see that the spacer at a curving the you see that the spacer at a curving the you see that the spacer at a curving the space they are sort of the the tracks space they are sort of the the tracks space they are sort of the the tracks along which the space gets curved that's along which the space gets curved that's along which the space gets curved that's that's the that would be the curvature that's the that would be the curvature that's the that would be the curvature of spatial Dimensions but in fact now

of spatial Dimensions but in fact now of spatial Dimensions but in fact now throw in time and one time imagine a throw in time and one time imagine a throw in time and one time imagine a sphere which lives which has one of the sphere which lives which has one of the sphere which lives which has one of the meridians correspond to time and the meridians correspond to time and the meridians correspond to time and the perilous crisp into space I can't perilous crisp into space I can't perilous crisp into space I can't imagine it but you can I can write imagine it but you can I can write imagine it but you can I can write mathematical formula expressing that mathematical formula expressing that mathematical formula expressing that curvature and that's in fact that curvature and that's in fact that curvature and that's in fact that curvature is responsible for the force curvature is responsible for the force curvature is responsible for the force of gravity attraction between the sort of gravity attraction between the sort of gravity attraction between the sort of simplest instantiation of it of simplest instantiation of it of simplest instantiation of it attraction between two planets all attraction between two planets all attraction between two planets all between two human beings between two human beings between two human beings at the time at the time at the time bending time bending time bending time it's not very nice that what that theory it's not very nice that what that theory it's not very nice that what that theory did to time because did to time because did to time because it feels like the marching of time it feels like the marching of time it feels like the marching of time forward is fundamental to our Human forward is fundamental to our Human forward is fundamental to our Human Experience Experience Experience there of time there of time there of time marching forward nicely marching forward nicely marching forward nicely seems to be the only way we can seems to be the only way we can seems to be the only way we can understand the universe and the fact understand the universe and the fact understand the universe and the fact that you can start now up to now there that you can start now up to now there that you can start now up to now there are people who claim that they can that are people who claim that they can that are people who claim that they can that they have they possess other ways of of they have they possess other ways of of they have they possess other ways of of experiencing it so truly can visualize experiencing it so truly can visualize experiencing it so truly can visualize messing with time messing with time messing with time well messing with time but not well messing with time but not well messing with time but not necessarily messing with time because necessarily messing with time because necessarily messing with time because one point of view is that you know one point of view is that you know one point of view is that you know I think who who was it I think William I think who who was it I think William I think who who was it I think William Blake Blake Blake who wrote that eternity loves time who wrote that eternity loves time who wrote that eternity loves time production production production so so so one point of view is that it is eternity one point of view is that it is eternity one point of view is that it is eternity which is fundamental where time stands which is fundamental where time stands which is fundamental where time stands still which our mind conceptualizes as still which our mind conceptualizes as still which our mind conceptualizes as the time the time the time so but in fact you know it's not so but in fact you know it's not so but in fact you know it's not something mystical if you think about

something mystical if you think about something mystical if you think about when you about it when you about it when you about it when you really absorbed in something when you really absorbed in something when you really absorbed in something time does stand still and then you look time does stand still and then you look time does stand still and then you look at the clock and it's like oh my God two at the clock and it's like oh my God two at the clock and it's like oh my God two hours have passed and it felt like a hours have passed and it felt like a hours have passed and it felt like a couple of seconds couple of seconds couple of seconds when you are absorbed when you're in when you are absorbed when you're in when you are absorbed when you're in love when you are passionate about love when you are passionate about love when you are passionate about something when you're creating something something when you're creating something something when you're creating something you're we lose ourselves and we lose the you're we lose ourselves and we lose the you're we lose ourselves and we lose the sense of time and space for that matter sense of time and space for that matter sense of time and space for that matter you see so there is only that which is you see so there is only that which is you see so there is only that which is happening that creative process happening that creative process happening that creative process um so I think that this this is familiar um so I think that this this is familiar um so I think that this this is familiar to all of us and we may be actually the to all of us and we may be actually the to all of us and we may be actually the closest to the truth at that moment closest to the truth at that moment closest to the truth at that moment so yes so then there is a point of view so yes so then there is a point of view so yes so then there is a point of view that this is where we are we are who we that this is where we are we are who we that this is where we are we are who we are at our sort of fundamental at our are at our sort of fundamental at our are at our sort of fundamental at our fundamental level and after that the fundamental level and after that the fundamental level and after that the Mind comes in Mind comes in Mind comes in and tries to conceptualize it it's like and tries to conceptualize it it's like and tries to conceptualize it it's like oh because I was writing something oh because I was writing something oh because I was writing something um um um I was writing a book I was painting this I was writing a book I was painting this I was writing a book I was painting this painting or maybe I was watching this painting or maybe I was watching this painting or maybe I was watching this painting and got totally absorbed in it painting and got totally absorbed in it painting and got totally absorbed in it or I fell in love with this person or I fell in love with this person or I fell in love with this person that's what happened but in the moment that's what happened but in the moment that's what happened but in the moment when it's happening you're not thinking when it's happening you're not thinking when it's happening you're not thinking about it you're just there yeah we about it you're just there yeah we about it you're just there yeah we construct narratives around the set of construct narratives around the set of construct narratives around the set of memories that that seem to have happened memories that that seem to have happened memories that that seem to have happened in sequence or at least that's the way in sequence or at least that's the way in sequence or at least that's the way we tell ourselves that and we also have we tell ourselves that and we also have we tell ourselves that and we also have a bunch of weird human things like a bunch of weird human things like a bunch of weird human things like Consciousness and the experience of free Consciousness and the experience of free Consciousness and the experience of free will that we chose a set of actions as will that we chose a set of actions as will that we chose a set of actions as the time unrolled forward right

the time unrolled forward right the time unrolled forward right and we are intelligent conscious agents and we are intelligent conscious agents and we are intelligent conscious agents making taste taking those actions making taste taking those actions making taste taking those actions but what if all of that is just an but what if all of that is just an but what if all of that is just an illusion an illusion and a nice illusion an illusion and a nice illusion an illusion and a nice narrative would tell ourselves sure narrative would tell ourselves sure narrative would tell ourselves sure that's a really difficult thing and that's a really difficult thing and that's a really difficult thing and imagine imagine that to make it really imagine imagine that to make it really imagine imagine that to make it really Catch-22 that I'll imagine that our Catch-22 that I'll imagine that our Catch-22 that I'll imagine that our minds and are set up in such a way yeah minds and are set up in such a way yeah minds and are set up in such a way yeah that they can't approach the world or that they can't approach the world or that they can't approach the world or experience otherwise experience otherwise experience otherwise so in other words to understand to see so in other words to understand to see so in other words to understand to see that from a more that from a more that from a more kind of all-encompassing point of view kind of all-encompassing point of view kind of all-encompassing point of view we have to step out of the Mind we have to step out of the Mind we have to step out of the Mind well I wonder what's the more honest way well I wonder what's the more honest way well I wonder what's the more honest way to look at things to look at things to look at things but I think we like to be to play with but I think we like to be to play with but I think we like to be to play with time I think we like to play with these time I think we like to play with these time I think we like to play with these experiences with all the drama of it experiences with all the drama of it experiences with all the drama of it with all the memories with all the with all the memories with all the with all the memories with all the tribulations I think we love it we love tribulations I think we love it we love tribulations I think we love it we love it otherwise we wouldn't be doing it I it otherwise we wouldn't be doing it I it otherwise we wouldn't be doing it I think this or Earth loves it The think this or Earth loves it The think this or Earth loves it The evolutionary process somehow loves it evolutionary process somehow loves it evolutionary process somehow loves it whatever whatever this thing that's whatever whatever this thing that's whatever whatever this thing that's being created here on Earth it seems to being created here on Earth it seems to being created here on Earth it seems to like to create like to allow its like to create like to allow its like to create like to allow its children to play with certain uh yeah children to play with certain uh yeah children to play with certain uh yeah truths that they hold this subjective truths that they hold this subjective truths that they hold this subjective truths that are useful for the truths that are useful for the truths that are useful for the competition or whatever this dance that competition or whatever this dance that competition or whatever this dance that we call Life broadly Define not just we call Life broadly Define not just we call Life broadly Define not just humans and and you know I'm glad you humans and and you know I'm glad you humans and and you know I'm glad you mentioned that because mentioned that because mentioned that because what I find fascinating is that the what I find fascinating is that the what I find fascinating is that the greatest scientists are on record greatest scientists are on record greatest scientists are on record saying that when they were making their saying that when they were making their saying that when they were making their discoveries they felt like children so

discoveries they felt like children so discoveries they felt like children so Isaac Newton said to myself I only Isaac Newton said to myself I only Isaac Newton said to myself I only appeared as a child playing on the appeared as a child playing on the appeared as a child playing on the seashore and every once in a while seashore and every once in a while seashore and every once in a while finding a prettier Pebble or a prettier finding a prettier Pebble or a prettier finding a prettier Pebble or a prettier shell whilst I think some he says shell whilst I think some he says shell whilst I think some he says something like the infinite ocean of something like the infinite ocean of something like the infinite ocean of knowledge lady was lying before me who probably it was the greatest who probably it was the greatest mathematician of the second half of the mathematician of the second half of the mathematician of the second half of the 20th century the French mathematician 20th century the French mathematician 20th century the French mathematician Alexander grotonic Alexander grotonic Alexander grotonic wrote that discover is a privilege of a wrote that discover is a privilege of a wrote that discover is a privilege of a child child child the child who is not afraid to be wrong the child who is not afraid to be wrong the child who is not afraid to be wrong once again to build to look like an once again to build to look like an once again to build to look like an idiot you know to to try this and that idiot you know to to try this and that idiot you know to to try this and that and paraphrasing and go through trial and paraphrasing and go through trial and paraphrasing and go through trial and error that is for them in other and error that is for them in other and error that is for them in other words for them words for them words for them that innocence that innocence that innocence of a child who is not afraid of a child who is not afraid of a child who is not afraid who has not yet been told that it cannot who has not yet been told that it cannot who has not yet been told that it cannot be done okay be done okay be done okay that was essential to Scientific pursuit that was essential to Scientific pursuit that was essential to Scientific pursuit to scientific discovery to scientific discovery to scientific discovery and now and now also compared to Pablo and now and now also compared to Pablo and now and now also compared to Pablo Picasso a great artist right so who said Picasso a great artist right so who said Picasso a great artist right so who said every every child is an artist the every every child is an artist the every every child is an artist the question is to how to preserve that as question is to how to preserve that as question is to how to preserve that as we grow up we grow up we grow up do you struggle with that you're one of do you struggle with that you're one of do you struggle with that you're one of the most respected the most respected the most respected mathematicians in the world mathematicians in the world mathematicians in the world uh your Berkeley you're like this this uh your Berkeley you're like this this uh your Berkeley you're like this this is the stature you're supposed to be is the stature you're supposed to be is the stature you're supposed to be very like you know yeah sometimes I joke very like you know yeah sometimes I joke very like you know yeah sometimes I joke I say I I think I take an elevator to

I say I I think I take an elevator to I say I I think I take an elevator to the top of the Eiffel Tower every day the top of the Eiffel Tower every day the top of the Eiffel Tower every day yeah and you're supposed to speak like yeah and you're supposed to speak like yeah and you're supposed to speak like royalty uh do you struggle to let those royalty uh do you struggle to let those royalty uh do you struggle to let those uh strip all of that away to ReDiscover uh strip all of that away to ReDiscover uh strip all of that away to ReDiscover the child when you're thinking about the child when you're thinking about the child when you're thinking about problems when you're teaching when problems when you're teaching when problems when you're teaching when you're thinking about the world you're thinking about the world you're thinking about the world absolutely I mean that's part of being absolutely I mean that's part of being absolutely I mean that's part of being human because when we grow up I mean all human because when we grow up I mean all human because when we grow up I mean all of them all of these great scientists I of them all of these great scientists I of them all of these great scientists I think they were so great in part because think they were so great in part because think they were so great in part because they were able to maintain that they were able to maintain that they were able to maintain that connection okay in that Fascination that connection okay in that Fascination that connection okay in that Fascination that vulnerability vulnerability vulnerability um that spontaneity you know and uh um that spontaneity you know and uh um that spontaneity you know and uh um kind of looking at the World Through um kind of looking at the World Through um kind of looking at the World Through The Eyes of a child but it's difficult The Eyes of a child but it's difficult The Eyes of a child but it's difficult because you know you go through because you know you go through because you know you go through education system and for many of us education system and for many of us education system and for many of us uh it's not especially uh it's not especially uh it's not especially helpful for maintaining that connection helpful for maintaining that connection helpful for maintaining that connection that we kind of like we are being told that we kind of like we are being told that we kind of like we are being told certain things that we accept certain things that we accept certain things that we accept take for granted and so on and little by take for granted and so on and little by take for granted and so on and little by little and also we get hit every time we little and also we get hit every time we little and also we get hit every time we act different okay every time we act act different okay every time we act act different okay every time we act that that's in a way that doesn't fit that that's in a way that doesn't fit that that's in a way that doesn't fit sort of the pattern we get punished by sort of the pattern we get punished by sort of the pattern we get punished by the teachers get punished by the teachers get punished by the teachers get punished by parents and so on and don't get respect parents and so on and don't get respect parents and so on and don't get respect when you act childlike in your thinking when you act childlike in your thinking when you act childlike in your thinking when you are fearless and when you are fearless and when you are fearless and uh looking like an idiot that's right uh looking like an idiot that's right uh looking like an idiot that's right because there's a hierarchy nobody wants because there's a hierarchy nobody wants because there's a hierarchy nobody wants to look like an idiot you know once you to look like an idiot you know once you to look like an idiot you know once you start growing up or you think you're start growing up or you think you're start growing up or you think you're growing up yeah in the beginning you growing up yeah in the beginning you growing up yeah in the beginning you don't even think of you don't think in

don't even think of you don't think in don't even think of you don't think in these terms you just play you're just these terms you just play you're just these terms you just play you're just playing and you are open to playing and you are open to playing and you are open to possibilities to these infinite possibilities to these infinite possibilities to these infinite possibilities that this world presents possibilities that this world presents possibilities that this world presents to us so how do we I'm not saying that to us so how do we I'm not saying that to us so how do we I'm not saying that education system should not be also uh education system should not be also uh education system should not be also uh kind of taming that a little bit kind of taming that a little bit kind of taming that a little bit obviously obviously obviously the goal is balance the goal is balance the goal is balance that acquiring knowledge that acquiring knowledge that acquiring knowledge so that so that so that we can be more mature and more we can be more mature and more we can be more mature and more discerning more discriminating in terms discerning more discriminating in terms discerning more discriminating in terms of our approach to the world in terms of of our approach to the world in terms of of our approach to the world in terms of our connections to the world and people our connections to the world and people our connections to the world and people and so on but how we do we do that while and so on but how we do we do that while and so on but how we do we do that while also preserving that innocence of a also preserving that innocence of a also preserving that innocence of a child child child and my guess is that there is no formula and my guess is that there is no formula and my guess is that there is no formula for this it is for this it is for this it is alive is an answer every life every alive is an answer every life every alive is an answer every life every human being is one particular answer to human being is one particular answer to human being is one particular answer to how do we find balance how do we find balance how do we find balance uh that's once imperfect approximation uh that's once imperfect approximation uh that's once imperfect approximation approximate solution approximate solution approximate solution but we could look we can look up to the but we could look we can look up to the but we could look we can look up to the great ones yeah who have great ones yeah who have great ones yeah who have credentials in the sense that they have credentials in the sense that they have credentials in the sense that they have shown and they have proved that they shown and they have proved that they shown and they have proved that they have done something that other humans have done something that other humans have done something that other humans appreciate our civilization appreciates appreciate our civilization appreciates appreciate our civilization appreciates say Isaac Newton or Alexander grotonic say Isaac Newton or Alexander grotonic say Isaac Newton or Alexander grotonic or Pablo Picasso so they have or Pablo Picasso so they have or Pablo Picasso so they have established their rights to speak about established their rights to speak about established their rights to speak about this matters and we could not dismiss

this matters and we could not dismiss this matters and we could not dismiss them as mere Madman them as mere Madman them as mere Madman they say okay well if the same thing was they say okay well if the same thing was they say okay well if the same thing was said by somebody who never achieved said by somebody who never achieved said by somebody who never achieved anything in in that in their in their anything in in that in their in their anything in in that in their in their field of endeavor you will be it would field of endeavor you will be it would field of endeavor you will be it would be easy for us to dismiss it but when it be easy for us to dismiss it but when it be easy for us to dismiss it but when it comes from someone like Isaac Newton comes from someone like Isaac Newton comes from someone like Isaac Newton we take notice so I think it's something we take notice so I think it's something we take notice so I think it's something important that they teach us and important that they teach us and important that they teach us and especially today in this age of AI especially today in this age of AI especially today in this age of AI of course there's a big elephant in the of course there's a big elephant in the of course there's a big elephant in the room always which is called AI yeah room always which is called AI yeah room always which is called AI yeah right and so I know that you are an right and so I know that you are an right and so I know that you are an expert in this subject expert in this subject expert in this subject and we are going we're living now in and we are going we're living now in and we are going we're living now in this very interesting times of new AI this very interesting times of new AI this very interesting times of new AI systems coming online pretty much every systems coming online pretty much every systems coming online pretty much every couple of weeks couple of weeks couple of weeks so so so I kind of um to me that whole debate I kind of um to me that whole debate I kind of um to me that whole debate about about about what is it what is artificial what is it what is artificial what is it what is artificial intelligence where is it going what intelligence where is it going what intelligence where is it going what should we do about it should we do about it should we do about it needs an influx of this type of needs an influx of this type of needs an influx of this type of considerations that we've just been considerations that we've just been considerations that we've just been talking about talking about talking about that for instance the idea that that for instance the idea that that for instance the idea that inspiration creativity doesn't come from inspiration creativity doesn't come from inspiration creativity doesn't come from accumulation of knowledge because accumulation of knowledge because accumulation of knowledge because obviously child a child has not yet obviously child a child has not yet obviously child a child has not yet accumulated knowledge and yet the great accumulated knowledge and yet the great accumulated knowledge and yet the great ones are on record saying that a child ones are on record saying that a child ones are on record saying that a child has a capacity has a capacity has a capacity to to create to to create to to create and at an adult and at an adult and at an adult credits the inner child the inner child credits the inner child the inner child credits the inner child the inner child yeah for this capacity to create as an

yeah for this capacity to create as an yeah for this capacity to create as an adult you see that's kind of weird if we adult you see that's kind of weird if we adult you see that's kind of weird if we take the point of view take the point of view take the point of view that everything is computation that everything is computation that everything is computation everything is accumulation of knowledge everything is accumulation of knowledge everything is accumulation of knowledge that just bigger and bigger data sets that just bigger and bigger data sets that just bigger and bigger data sets finer and finer neural networks and then finer and finer neural networks and then finer and finer neural networks and then we will be able to replicate human we will be able to replicate human we will be able to replicate human consciousness if we take that point of consciousness if we take that point of consciousness if we take that point of view then what I just said kind of view then what I just said kind of view then what I just said kind of doesn't fit because obviously a child doesn't fit because obviously a child doesn't fit because obviously a child has not been fed any training data as has not been fed any training data as has not been fed any training data as far as we know yet they're perfectly far as we know yet they're perfectly far as we know yet they're perfectly capable of of you know or distinguishing capable of of you know or distinguishing capable of of you know or distinguishing between cats and dogs for instance and between cats and dogs for instance and between cats and dogs for instance and stuff like that but much more than that stuff like that but much more than that stuff like that but much more than that they're also capable of that they're also capable of that they're also capable of that you know wide-eyed in the sort of you know wide-eyed in the sort of you know wide-eyed in the sort of perspective perspective perspective so does can it really be captured that so does can it really be captured that so does can it really be captured that perspective that sense of or can it perspective that sense of or can it perspective that sense of or can it really be captured by computation alone really be captured by computation alone really be captured by computation alone I actually I don't know the answer so I actually I don't know the answer so I actually I don't know the answer so I'm not sort of trying to I'm not sort of trying to I'm not sort of trying to uh to present a particular point of view uh to present a particular point of view uh to present a particular point of view interesting to question interesting to question interesting to question um any theory that starts out by saying um any theory that starts out by saying um any theory that starts out by saying life is this or Consciousness is this life is this or Consciousness is this life is this or Consciousness is this because when you look more closely you because when you look more closely you because when you look more closely you recognize that there are some other recognize that there are some other recognize that there are some other things at play things at play things at play which do not quite fit the narrative which do not quite fit the narrative which do not quite fit the narrative and it's hard to know where they come and it's hard to know where they come and it's hard to know where they come from it's it's also possible that the from it's it's also possible that the from it's it's also possible that the evolutionary process has created evolutionary process has created evolutionary process has created is the very it is computation and the is the very it is computation and the is the very it is computation and the and the child is actually not a blank

and the child is actually not a blank and the child is actually not a blank slate but the result of one of the most slate but the result of one of the most slate but the result of one of the most incredible incredible incredible several billion year old computations uh several billion year old computations uh several billion year old computations uh that that that that had explored all kinds of aspects that had explored all kinds of aspects that had explored all kinds of aspects of of life on Earth of of life on Earth of of life on Earth of of war and love and Terror and of of war and love and Terror and of of war and love and Terror and ambition and violence and invention all ambition and violence and invention all ambition and violence and invention all of that from the bacteria to today so of that from the bacteria to today so of that from the bacteria to today so like that young child is not is not a like that young child is not is not a like that young child is not is not a blank slate they call me they're they're blank slate they call me they're they're blank slate they call me they're they're actually they hold within them the actually they hold within them the actually they hold within them the knowledge of several billions of years knowledge of several billions of years knowledge of several billions of years right the question is whether as a child right the question is whether as a child right the question is whether as a child you carry that in the form of the kind you carry that in the form of the kind you carry that in the form of the kind of computational algorithms that we are of computational algorithms that we are of computational algorithms that we are aware today you see what what strikes me aware today you see what what strikes me aware today you see what what strikes me as unlikely as unlikely as unlikely is that is that is that how should I put it how interesting that how should I put it how interesting that how should I put it how interesting that you know we you you are a computer you know we you you are a computer you know we you you are a computer scientist and there are other people scientist and there are other people scientist and there are other people come I have studied computer science so come I have studied computer science so come I have studied computer science so I know a little bit I know a little bit I know a little bit and so it's tempting to say and so it's tempting to say and so it's tempting to say oh oh oh the whole world the whole world the whole world is computer science or is based can be is computer science or is based can be is computer science or is based can be explained by computer science yes why explained by computer science yes why explained by computer science yes why because it makes me feel good because I because it makes me feel good because I because it makes me feel good because I have mastered it I have learned it my have mastered it I have learned it my have mastered it I have learned it my ego is very happy and people come to me ego is very happy and people come to me ego is very happy and people come to me and and they look up to me and they and and they look up to me and they and and they look up to me and they Revere me kind of like priests in the Revere me kind of like priests in the Revere me kind of like priests in the old in old days when the religion was old in old days when the religion was old in old days when the religion was Paramount wonder when you would be would

Paramount wonder when you would be would Paramount wonder when you would be would tend to explain things in theological tend to explain things in theological tend to explain things in theological religious terms today science has religious terms today science has religious terms today science has progressed there are fewer people who progressed there are fewer people who progressed there are fewer people who kind of buy into religion official kind of buy into religion official kind of buy into religion official religion you know so religion you know so religion you know so we have this urge I suppose to to we have this urge I suppose to to we have this urge I suppose to to explain and to know and to dissect and explain and to know and to dissect and explain and to know and to dissect and to analyze and to conceptualize which is to analyze and to conceptualize which is to analyze and to conceptualize which is a wonderful quality that we have and we a wonderful quality that we have and we a wonderful quality that we have and we should definitely pursue that but I find should definitely pursue that but I find should definitely pursue that but I find it a little bit it a little bit it a little bit unlikely unlikely unlikely that the universe is just exactly what I that the universe is just exactly what I that the universe is just exactly what I have learned have learned have learned and not something that I don't know you and not something that I don't know you and not something that I don't know you see see see well there's a lot of interesting well there's a lot of interesting well there's a lot of interesting aspects of the current large language aspects of the current large language aspects of the current large language models models models that one perspective of it I think that one perspective of it I think that one perspective of it I think speaks to the love and math that you speaks to the love and math that you speaks to the love and math that you talk to which is talk to which is talk to which is they're trained on they're trained on they're trained on the human data from the internet the human data from the internet the human data from the internet so at its best a large language model so at its best a large language model so at its best a large language model like gpt4 like gpt4 like gpt4 captures the magic of The Human captures the magic of The Human captures the magic of The Human Condition on its full display it's full Condition on its full display it's full Condition on its full display it's full complexity complexity complexity it's just mimicking it's trying to it's just mimicking it's trying to it's just mimicking it's trying to compress all the weirdness of humans compress all the weirdness of humans compress all the weirdness of humans of all the debates and discussions the of all the debates and discussions the of all the debates and discussions the perspectives all the different ways that perspectives all the different ways that perspectives all the different ways that people approach solving different people approach solving different people approach solving different problems all of that compressed so we problems all of that compressed so we problems all of that compressed so we live we're each individual ants we only live we're each individual ants we only live we're each individual ants we only have like we have a family we interact have like we have a family we interact have like we have a family we interact with a few little ants and here comes AI

with a few little ants and here comes AI with a few little ants and here comes AI That's able to summarize like a tldr That's able to summarize like a tldr That's able to summarize like a tldr report of humanity and that's the beauty report of humanity and that's the beauty report of humanity and that's the beauty of it so I embrace it but I wonder I'm of it so I embrace it but I wonder I'm of it so I embrace it but I wonder I'm very impressed by it I wonder if very impressed by it I wonder if very impressed by it I wonder if they can be very impressive meaning they can be very impressive meaning they can be very impressive meaning way more impressive in being able to way more impressive in being able to way more impressive in being able to fake or simulate or emulate a human fake or simulate or emulate a human fake or simulate or emulate a human right I'm glad you mentioned that right I'm glad you mentioned that right I'm glad you mentioned that because that's just it seems to be the because that's just it seems to be the because that's just it seems to be the Mantra it's just fake fake it till you Mantra it's just fake fake it till you Mantra it's just fake fake it till you make it yeah isn't it isn't that what we make it yeah isn't it isn't that what we make it yeah isn't it isn't that what we all do though no well yes we do that but all do though no well yes we do that but all do though no well yes we do that but we also do other things we can be truly we also do other things we can be truly we also do other things we can be truly in love we can be truly inspired when it in love we can be truly inspired when it in love we can be truly inspired when it is not fake I do believe call me a is not fake I do believe call me a is not fake I do believe call me a romantic okay but I do believe romantic okay but I do believe romantic okay but I do believe and this is a very good I'm glad you're and this is a very good I'm glad you're and this is a very good I'm glad you're putting it in these terms because I've putting it in these terms because I've putting it in these terms because I've had conversations like that that yeah had conversations like that that yeah had conversations like that that yeah fake it till you make it but that's like fake it till you make it but that's like fake it till you make it but that's like that's what humans do yes we do that but that's what humans do yes we do that but that's what humans do yes we do that but not all the time so and that is not all the time so and that is not all the time so and that is debatable because also I speak from my debatable because also I speak from my debatable because also I speak from my own experience and that's where the own experience and that's where the own experience and that's where the first person perspective comes in the first person perspective comes in the first person perspective comes in the subjective view I cannot prove to you subjective view I cannot prove to you subjective view I cannot prove to you for instance or anyone else that there for instance or anyone else that there for instance or anyone else that there are certain moments in my life where I are certain moments in my life where I are certain moments in my life where I am genuine I am pure so to speak when am genuine I am pure so to speak when am genuine I am pure so to speak when it's not faking it but I do I do have a it's not faking it but I do I do have a it's not faking it but I do I do have a tremendous tremendous tremendous a certainty of it and that's a a certainty of it and that's a a certainty of it and that's a subjective certainty now I am as a subjective certainty now I am as a subjective certainty now I am as a scientist I'm also trained to give more scientist I'm also trained to give more scientist I'm also trained to give more um credibility to objective arguments

um credibility to objective arguments um credibility to objective arguments that another things that can be that another things that can be that another things that can be reproduced things that I can demonstrate reproduced things that I can demonstrate reproduced things that I can demonstrate that I can show that I can show that I can show but as I get older there we go as I get but as I get older there we go as I get but as I get older there we go as I get more mature hopefully you know more mature hopefully you know more mature hopefully you know I'm starting to question why I am not I'm starting to question why I am not I'm starting to question why I am not giving as much giving as much giving as much credibility to my subjective credibility to my subjective credibility to my subjective understanding of the world the kind of understanding of the world the kind of understanding of the world the kind of the first person perspective when I the first person perspective when I the first person perspective when I actually modern science has already sold actually modern science has already sold actually modern science has already sold on that you know quantum mechanics on that you know quantum mechanics on that you know quantum mechanics has shown unambiguously that the has shown unambiguously that the has shown unambiguously that the Observer is always involved in the Observer is always involved in the Observer is always involved in the observation observation observation likewise yodel's incompleteness likewise yodel's incompleteness likewise yodel's incompleteness ethereums to me ethereums to me ethereums to me a show that how essential is the Observer of the mathematical is the Observer of the mathematical theory for one thing that's the one who theory for one thing that's the one who theory for one thing that's the one who chooses the axioms and we can talk about chooses the axioms and we can talk about chooses the axioms and we can talk about this in more detail likewise Einstein's this in more detail likewise Einstein's this in more detail likewise Einstein's relativity where relativity where relativity where time is relative to The Observer for time is relative to The Observer for time is relative to The Observer for instance that's brilliant you're just instance that's brilliant you're just instance that's brilliant you're just describing all of these different scales describing all of these different scales describing all of these different scales The Observer what they Observer science The Observer what they Observer science The Observer what they Observer science so we signs of 19th century had the so we signs of 19th century had the so we signs of 19th century had the from Modern perspective and I don't want from Modern perspective and I don't want from Modern perspective and I don't want to offend anybody I had the delusion to offend anybody I had the delusion to offend anybody I had the delusion that somehow you could analyze the world that somehow you could analyze the world that somehow you could analyze the world being completely detached from it we now being completely detached from it we now being completely detached from it we now know after the The Landmark achievements know after the The Landmark achievements know after the The Landmark achievements of the first half of the 20th century of the first half of the 20th century of the first half of the 20th century that this is nonsense that is simply not that this is nonsense that is simply not that this is nonsense that is simply not true and this has been experimentally true and this has been experimentally true and this has been experimentally proved time and time again so to me proved time and time again so to me proved time and time again so to me I'm thinking maybe it's a hint that I

I'm thinking maybe it's a hint that I I'm thinking maybe it's a hint that I should take my first person perspective should take my first person perspective should take my first person perspective seriously as well and not just rely on seriously as well and not just rely on seriously as well and not just rely on kind of objective phenomena things that kind of objective phenomena things that kind of objective phenomena things that can be proved in a in a in a traditional can be proved in a in a in a traditional can be proved in a in a in a traditional sort of objective Way by setting up an sort of objective Way by setting up an sort of objective Way by setting up an experiment that can be repeated many experiment that can be repeated many experiment that can be repeated many times maybe I fall in love in a party times maybe I fall in love in a party times maybe I fall in love in a party you know the deepest love my of my life you know the deepest love my of my life you know the deepest love my of my life Perhaps Perhaps hasn't happened yet Perhaps Perhaps hasn't happened yet Perhaps Perhaps hasn't happened yet Perhaps I will fall in love and this but Perhaps I will fall in love and this but Perhaps I will fall in love and this but it's Unique it's a unique event you it's Unique it's a unique event you it's Unique it's a unique event you can't reproduce it necessarily you see can't reproduce it necessarily you see can't reproduce it necessarily you see so so in that sense you see how these so so in that sense you see how these so so in that sense you see how these things are closely connected I think things are closely connected I think things are closely connected I think that if you if we are declaring from the that if you if we are declaring from the that if you if we are declaring from the outset that all there is to life is outset that all there is to life is outset that all there is to life is you know computation in the form of you know computation in the form of you know computation in the form of neural networks or something like this neural networks or something like this neural networks or something like this however sophisticated they might be however sophisticated they might be however sophisticated they might be I think we are from the outside denying I think we are from the outside denying I think we are from the outside denying to ourselves the possibility that yes to ourselves the possibility that yes to ourselves the possibility that yes there is the side of me which is not there is the side of me which is not there is the side of me which is not faking it yes there is a side of me faking it yes there is a side of me faking it yes there is a side of me which cannot be captured by Logic and which cannot be captured by Logic and which cannot be captured by Logic and reason and you know what another great reason and you know what another great reason and you know what another great scientist said bless Pascal scientist said bless Pascal scientist said bless Pascal he said the heart has its reasons of he said the heart has its reasons of he said the heart has its reasons of which the reason knows nothing which the reason knows nothing which the reason knows nothing and then he also said the last step of and then he also said the last step of and then he also said the last step of reason is to grasp that there are reason is to grasp that there are reason is to grasp that there are infinitely many things Beyond Reason infinitely many things Beyond Reason infinitely many things Beyond Reason how interesting this was not a how interesting this was not a how interesting this was not a theologian this was not a priest this theologian this was not a priest this theologian this was not a priest this was not a spiritual Guru was not a spiritual Guru was not a spiritual Guru um it was a hardcore scientist who um it was a hardcore scientist who um it was a hardcore scientist who actually developed I think one of the

actually developed I think one of the actually developed I think one of the very first calculators very first calculators very first calculators how interesting that this guy also was how interesting that this guy also was how interesting that this guy also was able to able to able to uh impart on us that wisdom now you can uh impart on us that wisdom now you can uh impart on us that wisdom now you can always say that's not the case always say that's not the case always say that's not the case but why should we but why should we but why should we from the outset from the outset from the outset exclude this possibility that there is exclude this possibility that there is exclude this possibility that there is something to what something to what something to what he was saying that is my question I'm he was saying that is my question I'm he was saying that is my question I'm not taking sides not taking sides not taking sides um what I'm trying to do is to shake a um what I'm trying to do is to shake a um what I'm trying to do is to shake a little bit the debate because most little bit the debate because most little bit the debate because most mathematicians that I know and computer mathematicians that I know and computer mathematicians that I know and computer scientists even more so they're kind of scientists even more so they're kind of scientists even more so they're kind of already sold on this already sold on this already sold on this um we are just you know reminds me of um we are just you know reminds me of um we are just you know reminds me of this famous Lord kelvin's quote from the this famous Lord kelvin's quote from the this famous Lord kelvin's quote from the end of 19th century end of 19th century end of 19th century there's some debate whether he actually there's some debate whether he actually there's some debate whether he actually said that but said that but said that but never let a good story you know he said physics is basically finished he said physics is basically finished yeah All That Remains is more more yeah All That Remains is more more yeah All That Remains is more more precise measurement so I find a lot of precise measurement so I find a lot of precise measurement so I find a lot of my colleagues are happy to say my colleagues are happy to say my colleagues are happy to say yeah everything's finished we already yeah everything's finished we already yeah everything's finished we already got we got it we got it uh maybe little got we got it we got it uh maybe little got we got it we got it uh maybe little tweaks tweaks tweaks in uh in the in our large language in uh in the in our large language in uh in the in our large language models you know so now here's my models you know so now here's my models you know so now here's my question question question I'm kind of Playing devil's advocate a I'm kind of Playing devil's advocate a I'm kind of Playing devil's advocate a little bit because I don't see the other little bit because I don't see the other little bit because I don't see the other side side side represented that much represented that much represented that much and I'm saying okay could it be also and I'm saying okay could it be also and I'm saying okay could it be also that if you believe in that that becomes that if you believe in that that becomes that if you believe in that that becomes your reality your reality your reality that you can kind of put yourself in a

that you can kind of put yourself in a that you can kind of put yourself in a box box box where everything is competition and then where everything is competition and then where everything is competition and then you start seeing things as as being such you start seeing things as as being such you start seeing things as as being such it's confirmation bias if you will you it's confirmation bias if you will you it's confirmation bias if you will you know this also reminds me you know I know this also reminds me you know I know this also reminds me you know I think a good analogy is it's a friend of think a good analogy is it's a friend of think a good analogy is it's a friend of mine uh Philip caution told me that in mine uh Philip caution told me that in mine uh Philip caution told me that in France there is this literary movement France there is this literary movement France there is this literary movement which is called ulipo which is called ulipo which is called ulipo o u l uh IPO o u l uh IPO o u l uh IPO and it's a bunch of writers and and it's a bunch of writers and and it's a bunch of writers and mathematicians who create works of mathematicians who create works of mathematicians who create works of literature literature literature where in which they basically impose where in which they basically impose where in which they basically impose certain constraints certain constraints certain constraints a good example of this a good example of this a good example of this is a novel which is called the void or is a novel which is called the void or is a novel which is called the void or disappearance by a writer named George disappearance by a writer named George disappearance by a writer named George pereck pereck pereck which is a 300 page novel in French which is a 300 page novel in French which is a 300 page novel in French with no no which never uses the letter e with no no which never uses the letter e with no no which never uses the letter e which is the most used widely used which is the most used widely used which is the most used widely used letter of the French language so in letter of the French language so in letter of the French language so in other words he said these parameters for other words he said these parameters for other words he said these parameters for himself I'm going to write a book where himself I'm going to write a book where himself I'm going to write a book where I don't use this letter which is a great I don't use this letter which is a great I don't use this letter which is a great you know it's a great experiment and I you know it's a great experiment and I you know it's a great experiment and I upload it upload it upload it but that's what it's one thing to do but that's what it's one thing to do but that's what it's one thing to do that and to kind of show his that and to kind of show his that and to kind of show his gamesmanship if you will and and his gamesmanship if you will and and his gamesmanship if you will and and his proclivity and his ability as a writer proclivity and his ability as a writer proclivity and his ability as a writer but it's another thing if at the end of but it's another thing if at the end of but it's another thing if at the end of writing this book when you finish the writing this book when you finish the writing this book when you finish the book he would say letter e actually book he would say letter e actually book he would say letter e actually doesn't exist doesn't exist doesn't exist and try to convince us that in fact and try to convince us that in fact and try to convince us that in fact French French language does not have

French French language does not have French French language does not have that letter simply because he was able that letter simply because he was able that letter simply because he was able to go so far without using it you see so to go so far without using it you see so to go so far without using it you see so self-imposed limitation that's how I see self-imposed limitation that's how I see self-imposed limitation that's how I see it and I wonder why it and I wonder why it and I wonder why we should do that do we really need do we should do that do we really need do we should do that do we really need do we really feel the urge to say the world we really feel the urge to say the world we really feel the urge to say the world is like that the world can be explained is like that the world can be explained is like that the world can be explained this way or that way and I'm saying it this way or that way and I'm saying it this way or that way and I'm saying it you know it's a personal question for me you know it's a personal question for me you know it's a personal question for me because I am addicted to knowledge because I am addicted to knowledge because I am addicted to knowledge myself myself myself I you know hi my name is Edward I you know hi my name is Edward I you know hi my name is Edward and I'm an English addict okay I'm being and I'm an English addict okay I'm being and I'm an English addict okay I'm being serious I'm not being facetious up until serious I'm not being facetious up until serious I'm not being facetious up until very recently maybe a couple years ago very recently maybe a couple years ago very recently maybe a couple years ago I simply did not feel comfortable if I I simply did not feel comfortable if I I simply did not feel comfortable if I could not say the given answer could not say the given answer could not say the given answer explanation it's like oh there has to be explanation it's like oh there has to be explanation it's like oh there has to be some explanation and I try to some explanation and I try to some explanation and I try to frantically search for it frantically search for it frantically search for it just for somebody like me just for somebody like me just for somebody like me I know heard you know a left Brainiac I know heard you know a left Brainiac I know heard you know a left Brainiac and uh and uh and uh you know you know you know that's kind of typical typical for a that's kind of typical typical for a that's kind of typical typical for a scientists for mathematician it is scientists for mathematician it is scientists for mathematician it is incredibly hard just to allow the possibility that it's just to allow the possibility that it's a mystery a mystery a mystery and not to feel the urge and not to feel the urge and not to feel the urge to get the answer it is incredibly hard to get the answer it is incredibly hard to get the answer it is incredibly hard but it's possible and it is liberating but it's possible and it is liberating but it's possible and it is liberating it's recovering is recovering addict to it's recovering is recovering addict to it's recovering is recovering addict to knowledge knowledge knowledge let me say let me say let me say what you gain from it for instance I what you gain from it for instance I what you gain from it for instance I understand the value of paradoxes I I understand the value of paradoxes I I understand the value of paradoxes I I appreciate paradoxes more and you know

appreciate paradoxes more and you know appreciate paradoxes more and you know to to use another philosopher uh Soren to to use another philosopher uh Soren to to use another philosopher uh Soren kirkegar the Danish philosopher said uh kirkegar the Danish philosopher said uh kirkegar the Danish philosopher said uh I think or without Paradox is like a I think or without Paradox is like a I think or without Paradox is like a lover without passion lover without passion lover without passion a paltry mediocrity what's a good line a paltry mediocrity what's a good line a paltry mediocrity what's a good line all right all right all right so and you know so and you know so and you know Niels Bohr Niels Bohr said Niels Bohr Niels Bohr said Niels Bohr Niels Bohr said um in similar Vein The Great uh Danish um in similar Vein The Great uh Danish um in similar Vein The Great uh Danish also something about that something also something about that something also something about that something about Danes I think it all started with about Danes I think it all started with about Danes I think it all started with scramble it you know scramble it you know scramble it you know he said the opposite of a simple truth he said the opposite of a simple truth he said the opposite of a simple truth is a falsity is a falsity is a falsity but the opposite of a great truth but the opposite of a great truth but the opposite of a great truth is another great truth is another great truth is another great truth in other words in other words in other words things are not black and white you know things are not black and white you know things are not black and white you know they are not they are not they are not and I would even venture to say the most and I would even venture to say the most and I would even venture to say the most interesting the interesting things in interesting the interesting things in interesting the interesting things in life life life are like that the ones which are are like that the ones which are are like that the ones which are ambiguous ambiguous ambiguous it's an electron a particle or a wave it's an electron a particle or a wave it's an electron a particle or a wave it depends how you set up an experiment it depends how you set up an experiment it depends how you set up an experiment it will reveal itself as this or that it will reveal itself as this or that it will reveal itself as this or that depending on how you set up an depending on how you set up an depending on how you set up an experiment experiment experiment this bottle if you project it down onto this bottle if you project it down onto this bottle if you project it down onto the table the table the table you will see more or less a square it you will see more or less a square it you will see more or less a square it will project it onto wall you will see a will project it onto wall you will see a will project it onto wall you will see a different shape a naive question would different shape a naive question would different shape a naive question would be is it this or that be is it this or that be is it this or that because we understand that it's neither because we understand that it's neither because we understand that it's neither but both projections reveal something but both projections reveal something but both projections reveal something the real different sides of it a paradox the real different sides of it a paradox the real different sides of it a paradox is like that it's only paradoxical

is like that it's only paradoxical is like that it's only paradoxical um if we if we are confined in a um if we if we are confined in a um if we if we are confined in a particular particular particular Vision if we are wedded to a particular Vision if we are wedded to a particular Vision if we are wedded to a particular point of view point of view point of view it's a Harbinger if you will of a it's a Harbinger if you will of a it's a Harbinger if you will of a possibility of seeing things uh in a possibility of seeing things uh in a possibility of seeing things uh in a more in in a as they are as a more more in in a as they are as a more more in in a as they are as a more sophisticated than we thought before you sophisticated than we thought before you sophisticated than we thought before you see this is such a difficult idea for see this is such a difficult idea for see this is such a difficult idea for science to Grapple with that you know I science to Grapple with that you know I science to Grapple with that you know I don't know how there's so many ways to don't know how there's so many ways to don't know how there's so many ways to describe this but you could say maybe describe this but you could say maybe describe this but you could say maybe that the subjective experience of the that the subjective experience of the that the subjective experience of the world world world from an observer is actually fundamental from an observer is actually fundamental from an observer is actually fundamental but we know that our best physical but we know that our best physical but we know that our best physical theories tell us that unambiguously in theories tell us that unambiguously in theories tell us that unambiguously in quantum mechanics actually you know quantum mechanics actually you know quantum mechanics actually you know Heisenberg I think captured it the best Heisenberg I think captured it the best Heisenberg I think captured it the best when he said what we observe is not when he said what we observe is not when he said what we observe is not reality itself reality itself reality itself but reality but reality but reality subjected to our method of questioning subjected to our method of questioning subjected to our method of questioning um when I talk about uh electrons for um when I talk about uh electrons for um when I talk about uh electrons for instance so that there is a very instance so that there is a very instance so that there is a very specific way in which you in which this specific way in which you in which this specific way in which you in which this is realized there is a so-called double is realized there is a so-called double is realized there is a so-called double slit experiment right so slit experiment right so slit experiment right so um for those who don't know it's you you um for those who don't know it's you you um for those who don't know it's you you have a you have a screen and and you have a you have a screen and and you have a you have a screen and and you have an emitter from which you send you have an emitter from which you send you have an emitter from which you send you kind of shoot electrons and in between kind of shoot electrons and in between kind of shoot electrons and in between you put another screen which has two you put another screen which has two you put another screen which has two vertical slits parallel to each other if vertical slits parallel to each other if vertical slits parallel to each other if we were shooting you know tennis balls we were shooting you know tennis balls we were shooting you know tennis balls each ball would go through one slit or each ball would go through one slit or each ball would go through one slit or another and then hit the screen behind another and then hit the screen behind another and then hit the screen behind this or that slit so you would have

this or that slit so you would have this or that slit so you would have let's say they colored they painted so let's say they colored they painted so let's say they colored they painted so they'll be sort of bumps or or or spots they'll be sort of bumps or or or spots they'll be sort of bumps or or or spots of paint behind this or that of paint behind this or that of paint behind this or that but that's not what happens when we but that's not what happens when we but that's not what happens when we shoot electrons we see an interference shoot electrons we see an interference shoot electrons we see an interference pattern as if we were actually sending a pattern as if we were actually sending a pattern as if we were actually sending a wave so that each electron wave so that each electron wave so that each electron it seems like the each electron goes it seems like the each electron goes it seems like the each electron goes through both slits at once and then and through both slits at once and then and through both slits at once and then and then has the audacity to interfere with then has the audacity to interfere with then has the audacity to interfere with it with itself where at some points you it with itself where at some points you it with itself where at some points you know two crests would amplify and at know two crests would amplify and at know two crests would amplify and at some points aggress in the draft would some points aggress in the draft would some points aggress in the draft would cancel each other cancel each other cancel each other yet so that suggests okay so no electron yet so that suggests okay so no electron yet so that suggests okay so no electron is a wave not so fast because if you put is a wave not so fast because if you put is a wave not so fast because if you put a detector behind one of the slits and a detector behind one of the slits and a detector behind one of the slits and you say I'm going to I'm going to you say I'm going to I'm going to you say I'm going to I'm going to capture you capture you capture you I am going to find out which lid you I am going to find out which lid you I am going to find out which lid you went through the pattern will change and went through the pattern will change and went through the pattern will change and it will look like the particles so it will look like the particles so it will look like the particles so that's a very concrete realization of that's a very concrete realization of that's a very concrete realization of the idea that depending on how we set up the idea that depending on how we set up the idea that depending on how we set up an experiment we will see different an experiment we will see different an experiment we will see different results results results and the problem the problem is that our and the problem the problem is that our and the problem the problem is that our psyche I feel kind of lagging is lagging psyche I feel kind of lagging is lagging psyche I feel kind of lagging is lagging behind in part because maybe our behind in part because maybe our behind in part because maybe our scientists are not doing such a great scientists are not doing such a great scientists are not doing such a great job so I take responsibility for this job so I take responsibility for this job so I take responsibility for this that why haven't I explained this that why haven't I explained this that why haven't I explained this properly you know properly you know properly you know I I tried you know in a bunch of talks I I tried you know in a bunch of talks I I tried you know in a bunch of talks and so on so now I'm talking about this and so on so now I'm talking about this and so on so now I'm talking about this again again again our psychic kind of lagging behind we're our psychic kind of lagging behind we're our psychic kind of lagging behind we're still even though our science has still even though our science has still even though our science has progressed so much from the certainty progressed so much from the certainty progressed so much from the certainty and the determinism and and all of that and the determinism and and all of that and the determinism and and all of that of the 19th century of the 19th century of the 19th century our psyche is somehow still attached to

our psyche is somehow still attached to our psyche is somehow still attached to those ideas the ideas of causality of those ideas the ideas of causality of those ideas the ideas of causality of this naive determinism that that the war this naive determinism that that the war this naive determinism that that the war the world has a bunch of billiard balls the world has a bunch of billiard balls the world has a bunch of billiard balls hitching each other driven by some blind hitching each other driven by some blind hitching each other driven by some blind forces you know that's not at all like forces you know that's not at all like forces you know that's not at all like this and we've known this for over for this and we've known this for over for this and we've known this for over for well for about 100 years at least you well for about 100 years at least you well for about 100 years at least you know and you call this self-imposed know and you call this self-imposed know and you call this self-imposed limitation it is a self-imposed limitation it is a self-imposed limitation it is a self-imposed limitation when we when we pretend that limitation when we when we pretend that limitation when we when we pretend that uh that for instance that this naive uh that for instance that this naive uh that for instance that this naive ideas of 19th century ideas of 19th century ideas of 19th century um physics are still valid and and then um physics are still valid and and then um physics are still valid and and then start applying them to our lives and start applying them to our lives and start applying them to our lives and then also derive conclusions from it and then also derive conclusions from it and then also derive conclusions from it and for instance people say there is no free for instance people say there is no free for instance people say there is no free will why or because the world is just a will why or because the world is just a will why or because the world is just a bunch of uh billiard balls where is the bunch of uh billiard balls where is the bunch of uh billiard balls where is the free will but excuse me didn't you get free will but excuse me didn't you get free will but excuse me didn't you get the memo that this has been debunked the memo that this has been debunked the memo that this has been debunked thoroughly by the so-called quantum thoroughly by the so-called quantum thoroughly by the so-called quantum mechanics which is our best scientific mechanics which is our best scientific mechanics which is our best scientific theory this is not some some kind of theory this is not some some kind of theory this is not some some kind of bullshit or some kind of you know bullshit or some kind of you know bullshit or some kind of you know concoction of of a of a Madman this is concoction of of a of a Madman this is concoction of of a of a Madman this is our scientific theory which has been our scientific theory which has been our scientific theory which has been confirmed by experiment so we should pay confirmed by experiment so we should pay confirmed by experiment so we should pay attention to that so but of course it's attention to that so but of course it's attention to that so but of course it's not just not just not just um self-imposed limitation unfortunately um self-imposed limitation unfortunately um self-imposed limitation unfortunately in this case there is a big issue of in this case there is a big issue of in this case there is a big issue of Education Education Education so a lot of people are not aware of it so a lot of people are not aware of it so a lot of people are not aware of it through no fault of their own because through no fault of their own because through no fault of their own because they were never properly taught that they were never properly taught that they were never properly taught that because our system is broken education because our system is broken education because our system is broken education system is broken especially in math system is broken especially in math system is broken especially in math and then our so where do we get them do and then our so where do we get them do and then our so where do we get them do you get information you get information you get information you get information you get information you get information from from from our scientists who actually write our scientists who actually write our scientists who actually write popular books and so on which is a great

popular books and so on which is a great popular books and so on which is a great you know you know you know um great thing that they do but a lot of um great thing that they do but a lot of um great thing that they do but a lot of scientists somehow scientists somehow scientists somehow um when it comes to explaining the laws um when it comes to explaining the laws um when it comes to explaining the laws of physics they are doing a fantastic of physics they are doing a fantastic of physics they are doing a fantastic job um talking about this phenomenon for um talking about this phenomenon for instance double slit experiments and instance double slit experiments and instance double slit experiments and things like that but then you know things like that but then you know things like that but then you know interviewed by science managers in about interviewed by science managers in about interviewed by science managers in about three wheel and so on they revert back three wheel and so on they revert back three wheel and so on they revert back to 19 19th century physics as if those to 19 19th century physics as if those to 19 19th century physics as if those developments actually never happened so developments actually never happened so developments actually never happened so to me this is single most to me this is single most to me this is single most important sort of issue in our important sort of issue in our important sort of issue in our Popular Science Popular Science Popular Science the idea that somehow there is this the idea that somehow there is this the idea that somehow there is this world out there but it's complete has world out there but it's complete has world out there but it's complete has nothing to do with me so I can I can nothing to do with me so I can I can nothing to do with me so I can I can reveal in the reveal in the reveal in the intricacies of this particles and their intricacies of this particles and their intricacies of this particles and their interactions interactions interactions but but completely ignore what but but completely ignore what but but completely ignore what implications this has implications this has implications this has for my own relationship to the physical for my own relationship to the physical for my own relationship to the physical reality to my own life you know because reality to my own life you know because reality to my own life you know because it's kind of scary I guess you know but it's kind of scary I guess you know but it's kind of scary I guess you know but also what are the tools also what are the tools also what are the tools with which we can talk about the with which we can talk about the with which we can talk about the Observer Observer Observer the subjective view in reality what are the subjective view in reality what are the subjective view in reality what are the tools of which we could talk about the tools of which we could talk about the tools of which we could talk about rigorously talk about Free Will and rigorously talk about Free Will and rigorously talk about Free Will and Consciousness what are the tools of Consciousness what are the tools of Consciousness what are the tools of mathematics that allow that I don't mathematics that allow that I don't mathematics that allow that I don't think we have those tools because we think we have those tools because we think we have those tools because we haven't been taught properly so actually

haven't been taught properly so actually haven't been taught properly so actually tools are there for instance tools are there for instance tools are there for instance um um um I think well I think well I think well here we have to here we have to here we have to I have to say my conviction is that I have to say my conviction is that I have to say my conviction is that everybody knows everybody knows everybody knows in the heart of hearts everybody knows in the heart of hearts everybody knows in the heart of hearts everybody knows that there is that there is something that there is that there is something that there is that there is something in our football there is something in our football there is something in our football there is something mysterious and in fact you know mysterious and in fact you know mysterious and in fact you know somehow immediately I feel that somehow immediately I feel that somehow immediately I feel that um you know the impulse to quote um you know the impulse to quote um you know the impulse to quote somebody on this because as if as if my somebody on this because as if as if my somebody on this because as if as if my own opinion doesn't occur own opinion doesn't occur own opinion doesn't occur there's a long dead expert that has when there's a long dead expert that has when there's a long dead expert that has when Einstein said that he doesn't like how Einstein said that he doesn't like how Einstein said that he doesn't like how see look at me I am supposed to do like see look at me I am supposed to do like see look at me I am supposed to do like this smart intelligent person this smart intelligent person this smart intelligent person I am afraid to say it and own it myself I am afraid to say it and own it myself I am afraid to say it and own it myself I have to find a confirmation I have to I have to find a confirmation I have to I have to find a confirmation I have to find an authority who agrees with me and find an authority who agrees with me and find an authority who agrees with me and in fact it's not so difficult to find in fact it's not so difficult to find in fact it's not so difficult to find because Albert Einstein literally said because Albert Einstein literally said because Albert Einstein literally said the most important thing in life is the the most important thing in life is the the most important thing in life is the mysterious okay he actually said that mysterious okay he actually said that mysterious okay he actually said that there are some quotes which are there are some quotes which are there are some quotes which are attributed to him which he never said attributed to him which he never said attributed to him which he never said but this he did I investigated okay so but this he did I investigated okay so but this he did I investigated okay so but more importantly you know but more importantly you know but more importantly you know how do you feel about it how do you feel about it how do you feel about it um I think that everybody knows um I think that everybody knows um I think that everybody knows but but but in other words he also said Einstein in other words he also said Einstein in other words he also said Einstein imagination is more important than imagination is more important than imagination is more important than knowledge okay and explain for knowledge knowledge okay and explain for knowledge knowledge okay and explain for knowledge is always limited is always limited is always limited whereas the imagination Embraces the

whereas the imagination Embraces the whereas the imagination Embraces the entire world giving birth to Evolution entire world giving birth to Evolution entire world giving birth to Evolution it is uh strictly speaking a real factor it is uh strictly speaking a real factor it is uh strictly speaking a real factor in scientific research he says and he in scientific research he says and he in scientific research he says and he says I am enough of an artist to follow says I am enough of an artist to follow says I am enough of an artist to follow my intuition and Imagination that's my intuition and Imagination that's my intuition and Imagination that's Albert Einstein again so and I feel the Albert Einstein again so and I feel the Albert Einstein again so and I feel the same way to be honest if I think about same way to be honest if I think about same way to be honest if I think about my own mathematical research my own mathematical research my own mathematical research it's never linear it's never linear it's never linear it's never like give me more data give it's never like give me more data give it's never like give me more data give me more data give me more data Boom the me more data give me more data Boom the me more data give me more data Boom the glass is full and then I come up with a glass is full and then I come up with a glass is full and then I come up with a discovery no it's always it always is discovery no it's always it always is discovery no it's always it always is always felt as a jump always felt as a jump always felt as a jump as a leap as a leap as a leap and I I have actually been studying and I I have actually been studying and I I have actually been studying various various various examples in a history of mathematics of examples in a history of mathematics of examples in a history of mathematics of some fundamental discoveries like some fundamental discoveries like some fundamental discoveries like Discovery complex numbers like square Discovery complex numbers like square Discovery complex numbers like square root of negative one root of negative one root of negative one I wonder if a large language model could I wonder if a large language model could I wonder if a large language model could actually ever come up with the idea that actually ever come up with the idea that actually ever come up with the idea that square root square root of negative one square root square root of negative one square root square root of negative one is something that is essential or is something that is essential or is something that is essential or meaningful because if all the meaningful because if all the meaningful because if all the information that you get information that you get information that you get the all the knowledge that had been the all the knowledge that had been the all the knowledge that had been accumulated up to that point tells you accumulated up to that point tells you accumulated up to that point tells you that you cannot have a square root of a that you cannot have a square root of a that you cannot have a square root of a negative number why because if you had negative number why because if you had negative number why because if you had such a square root such a square root such a square root we know that if then we would have to if we know that if then we would have to if we know that if then we would have to if you square it you get a negative number you square it you get a negative number you square it you get a negative number but we know that if you square any real but we know that if you square any real but we know that if you square any real number positive or negative you will number positive or negative you will number positive or negative you will always get a positive number so always get a positive number so always get a positive number so Checkmate you know it's over square root Checkmate you know it's over square root Checkmate you know it's over square root of negative one doesn't exist yet we of negative one doesn't exist yet we of negative one doesn't exist yet we know that these numbers make sense

know that these numbers make sense know that these numbers make sense they're called complex numbers and in they're called complex numbers and in they're called complex numbers and in fact quantum mechanics is based on fact quantum mechanics is based on fact quantum mechanics is based on complex numbers they are in essential complex numbers they are in essential complex numbers they are in essential and indispensable for quantum mechanics and indispensable for quantum mechanics and indispensable for quantum mechanics could one discover that so to me that could one discover that so to me that could one discover that so to me that sounds like sounds like sounds like I discontinue it in the process of I discontinue it in the process of I discontinue it in the process of discovery it's a jump It's a departure discovery it's a jump It's a departure discovery it's a jump It's a departure it is like a child who is experimenting it is like a child who is experimenting it is like a child who is experimenting it's like a child who says I'm not it's like a child who says I'm not it's like a child who says I'm not afraid to be an idiot everybody says the afraid to be an idiot everybody says the afraid to be an idiot everybody says the adults are saying square root of adults are saying square root of adults are saying square root of negative number doesn't exist but guess negative number doesn't exist but guess negative number doesn't exist but guess what I'm going to accept it and I'm what I'm going to accept it and I'm what I'm going to accept it and I'm going to play with it and I'm going to going to play with it and I'm going to going to play with it and I'm going to see what happens this is literally how see what happens this is literally how see what happens this is literally how they were discovered there was an they were discovered there was an they were discovered there was an Italian Italian Italian mathematician mathematician mathematician astronomer astrologer he was he he made astronomer astrologer he was he he made astronomer astrologer he was he he made money apparently by compiling money apparently by compiling money apparently by compiling astrological sort of readings for for astrological sort of readings for for astrological sort of readings for for the elite you know of his ears this is the elite you know of his ears this is the elite you know of his ears this is 16th century everyone does example 16th century everyone does example 16th century everyone does example all around interesting guy I'm sure we all around interesting guy I'm sure we all around interesting guy I'm sure we would have an interesting conversation would have an interesting conversation would have an interesting conversation with him gerolamo cardano he's all he with him gerolamo cardano he's all he with him gerolamo cardano he's all he also invented the what's called cardan also invented the what's called cardan also invented the what's called cardan shaft so which is an essential component shaft so which is an essential component shaft so which is an essential component of of a car of of a car of of a car we say in Russian so so he wrote a book we say in Russian so so he wrote a book we say in Russian so so he wrote a book which is called uh our ass Magna which which is called uh our ass Magna which which is called uh our ass Magna which is a great art of algebra and he was is a great art of algebra and he was is a great art of algebra and he was writing solutions for the writing solutions for the writing solutions for the cubic and quartic equations cubic and quartic equations cubic and quartic equations this is something that is familiar this is something that is familiar this is something that is familiar because because because it's cool we study Solutions of it's cool we study Solutions of it's cool we study Solutions of quadratic equations equations of degree

quadratic equations equations of degree quadratic equations equations of degree two so you have x a x squared plus BX two so you have x a x squared plus BX two so you have x a x squared plus BX plus C equals zero and there is a plus C equals zero and there is a plus C equals zero and there is a Formula which solves it using radicals Formula which solves it using radicals Formula which solves it using radicals using square roots using square roots using square roots and cardano was trying to find a similar and cardano was trying to find a similar and cardano was trying to find a similar formula for the cubic and quadratic formula for the cubic and quadratic formula for the cubic and quadratic equations for which which would start equations for which which would start equations for which which would start with x cubed or x to the power 4 as with x cubed or x to the power 4 as with x cubed or x to the power 4 as opposed to x squared and in the process opposed to x squared and in the process opposed to x squared and in the process of solving these equations it came up of solving these equations it came up of solving these equations it came up with square root of a negative number with square root of a negative number with square root of a negative number specifically square root of -17 specifically square root of -17 specifically square root of -17 and he wrote that I have to forego some and he wrote that I have to forego some and he wrote that I have to forego some mental tortures to deal with it but I am going to accept to deal with it but I am going to accept it and see what happens and in fact at it and see what happens and in fact at it and see what happens and in fact at the end of the four at the end of the the end of the four at the end of the the end of the four at the end of the calculation calculation calculation this this this weird numbers got this this this weird numbers got this this this weird numbers got canceled it kind of canceled out in the canceled it kind of canceled out in the canceled it kind of canceled out in the formula appeared square root of negative formula appeared square root of negative formula appeared square root of negative 17 and its negation so they kind of 17 and its negation so they kind of 17 and its negation so they kind of conveniently gave the right answer which conveniently gave the right answer which conveniently gave the right answer which is not involve those numbers so he was is not involve those numbers so he was is not involve those numbers so he was like okay like okay like okay what does it mean mental tortures so you what does it mean mental tortures so you what does it mean mental tortures so you see from the point of view see from the point of view see from the point of view over of the of the thinking mind over of the of the thinking mind over of the of the thinking mind it is something almost unbearable it's it is something almost unbearable it's it is something almost unbearable it's almost I feel that a large language more almost I feel that a large language more almost I feel that a large language more the computer running a large language the computer running a large language the computer running a large language model trying to do that would just model trying to do that would just model trying to do that would just explode explode explode and yeah the human mathematician was and yeah the human mathematician was and yeah the human mathematician was able to find the courage and inspiration able to find the courage and inspiration able to find the courage and inspiration to say you know what what is wrong why to say you know what what is wrong why to say you know what what is wrong why why are we so adamant that these things why are we so adamant that these things why are we so adamant that these things don't exist that's just our past don't exist that's just our past don't exist that's just our past knowledge based on what our past knowledge based on what our past knowledge based on what our past knowledges and knowledge is limited what

knowledges and knowledge is limited what knowledges and knowledge is limited what if we make the next step if we make the next step if we make the next step today for us mathematicians context today for us mathematicians context today for us mathematicians context numbers that we call them are not at all numbers that we call them are not at all numbers that we call them are not at all mysterious the idea is simply that mysterious the idea is simply that mysterious the idea is simply that you plot real numbers that is to say all you plot real numbers that is to say all you plot real numbers that is to say all the whole numbers like 0 1 and so on to the whole numbers like 0 1 and so on to the whole numbers like 0 1 and so on to and so on right all fractions like one and so on right all fractions like one and so on right all fractions like one half or three halves or four over three half or three halves or four over three half or three halves or four over three but then also numbers like square root but then also numbers like square root but then also numbers like square root of two or Pi we plot them as points on of two or Pi we plot them as points on of two or Pi we plot them as points on the real line so we draw this is a this the real line so we draw this is a this the real line so we draw this is a this is one of the kind of perennial Concepts is one of the kind of perennial Concepts is one of the kind of perennial Concepts even in a in our very poor math even in a in our very poor math even in a in our very poor math curriculum at school but now imagine curriculum at school but now imagine curriculum at school but now imagine that instead of one line you have a pla that instead of one line you have a pla that instead of one line you have a pla you have a one axis you have a second you have a one axis you have a second you have a one axis you have a second access access access and so you numbers now have two and so you numbers now have two and so you numbers now have two coordinates X and Y and you associate to coordinates X and Y and you associate to coordinates X and Y and you associate to this point with coordinates X and Y this point with coordinates X and Y this point with coordinates X and Y and the number X which is a real number and the number X which is a real number and the number X which is a real number plus y times square root of negative one plus y times square root of negative one plus y times square root of negative one this is a graphical geometrical this is a graphical geometrical this is a graphical geometrical representation of complex numbers which representation of complex numbers which representation of complex numbers which is not mysterious at all now it took is not mysterious at all now it took is not mysterious at all now it took another two or three hundred years for another two or three hundred years for another two or three hundred years for mathematicians to figure that out but mathematicians to figure that out but mathematicians to figure that out but initially it looked like a completely initially it looked like a completely initially it looked like a completely crazy idea you know crazy idea you know crazy idea you know so all it is all a complex number is so all it is all a complex number is so all it is all a complex number is it's just an experience it's just an experience it's just an experience the real part and the imaginary part the real part and the imaginary part the real part and the imaginary part it's just an expansion of your view of it's just an expansion of your view of it's just an expansion of your view of the mathematical world the fact that you the mathematical world the fact that you the mathematical world the fact that you can actually multi you can add them up can actually multi you can add them up can actually multi you can add them up by adding um together the real parts and by adding um together the real parts and by adding um together the real parts and imagining parts that's easy but there is imagining parts that's easy but there is imagining parts that's easy but there is also formula for the product for the

also formula for the product for the also formula for the product for the multiplication which uses the fact that multiplication which uses the fact that multiplication which uses the fact that square root of minus 1 squared is minus square root of minus 1 squared is minus square root of minus 1 squared is minus one one one and the amazing thing is that that that and the amazing thing is that that that and the amazing thing is that that that product that multiplication satisfies product that multiplication satisfies product that multiplication satisfies the same rules the same properties that the same rules the same properties that the same rules the same properties that are usual operation of multiplication are usual operation of multiplication are usual operation of multiplication for real numbers for instance there is for real numbers for instance there is for real numbers for instance there is an inverse for every non-zero number an inverse for every non-zero number an inverse for every non-zero number that you can find like number five has that you can find like number five has that you can find like number five has an inverse one over five but uh OnePlus an inverse one over five but uh OnePlus an inverse one over five but uh OnePlus I also has an inverse for instance you I also has an inverse for instance you I also has an inverse for instance you know that was always there in the know that was always there in the know that was always there in the mathematical universe but we humans mathematical universe but we humans mathematical universe but we humans didn't know it and here comes along this didn't know it and here comes along this didn't know it and here comes along this guy who engages in the mental torture guy who engages in the mental torture guy who engages in the mental torture who takes a leap off the cliff of who takes a leap off the cliff of who takes a leap off the cliff of comfort of like mathematical established comfort of like mathematical established comfort of like mathematical established knowledge established knowledge right knowledge established knowledge right knowledge established knowledge right and now obviously for each each um sort and now obviously for each each um sort and now obviously for each each um sort of of of fruitful leap like that there probably fruitful leap like that there probably fruitful leap like that there probably were thousands of like things which went were thousands of like things which went were thousands of like things which went nowhere I'm not saying that every Leap nowhere I'm not saying that every Leap nowhere I'm not saying that every Leap you know it's like it's a it's a it's a you know it's like it's a it's a it's a you know it's like it's a it's a it's a open shooting game yeah because for open shooting game yeah because for open shooting game yeah because for example you can try to do the same with example you can try to do the same with example you can try to do the same with three-dimensional space so you have three-dimensional space so you have three-dimensional space so you have coordinates x y and z coordinates x y and z coordinates x y and z and you can say oh uh if there's one and you can say oh uh if there's one and you can say oh uh if there's one dimensional we have an abonified dimensional we have an abonified dimensional we have an abonified numerical system called real numbers numerical system called real numbers numerical system called real numbers if it's two-dimensional which is like if it's two-dimensional which is like if it's two-dimensional which is like you know geometrically it's just like you know geometrically it's just like you know geometrically it's just like the stable top extended to Infinity in the stable top extended to Infinity in the stable top extended to Infinity in all directions all directions all directions these are complex numbers and we can these are complex numbers and we can these are complex numbers and we can Define addition and multiplication and Define addition and multiplication and Define addition and multiplication and they will satisfy the same properties as they will satisfy the same properties as they will satisfy the same properties as real numbers that we're used to what real numbers that we're used to what real numbers that we're used to what about three-dimensional space is it about three-dimensional space is it about three-dimensional space is it possible to also Define some operation

possible to also Define some operation possible to also Define some operation of addition and multiplication on it so of addition and multiplication on it so of addition and multiplication on it so that the separations would satisfy the that the separations would satisfy the that the separations would satisfy the properties that we're used to and the properties that we're used to and the properties that we're used to and the answer is no you can Define addition but answer is no you can Define addition but answer is no you can Define addition but you can't Define multiplication for you can't Define multiplication for you can't Define multiplication for which there would be an inverse for which there would be an inverse for which there would be an inverse for instance so there is something special instance so there is something special instance so there is something special about the the plane the two-dimensional about the the plane the two-dimensional about the the plane the two-dimensional case and by the way uh next question case and by the way uh next question case and by the way uh next question would be what about four-dimensional in would be what about four-dimensional in would be what about four-dimensional in a four-dimensional space you again you a four-dimensional space you again you a four-dimensional space you again you can and you get what's called quotarians can and you get what's called quotarians can and you get what's called quotarians discovered by an Irish mathematician discovered by an Irish mathematician discovered by an Irish mathematician Hamilton in the 19th century Hamilton in the 19th century Hamilton in the 19th century and then in in the eight dimensional and then in in the eight dimensional and then in in the eight dimensional there is something similar called there is something similar called there is something similar called octonians and that's about it so how octonians and that's about it so how octonians and that's about it so how interesting interesting interesting these structures exist in dimension one these structures exist in dimension one these structures exist in dimension one two four and eight two four and eight two four and eight which are all powers of two which are all powers of two which are all powers of two to square this four two to the third to square this four two to the third to square this four two to the third power is eight that's one of the bigger power is eight that's one of the bigger power is eight that's one of the bigger mysteries in mathematics why it is so mysteries in mathematics why it is so mysteries in mathematics why it is so so here's a hint that's a hint of so here's a hint that's a hint of so here's a hint that's a hint of what's missing in our on our high school what's missing in our on our high school what's missing in our on our high school curriculum the kind of the kind of curriculum the kind of the kind of curriculum the kind of the kind of fascinating the Mysteries yes the fascinating the Mysteries yes the fascinating the Mysteries yes the appreciation of the mysterious but so in appreciation of the mysterious but so in appreciation of the mysterious but so in other words yes we resolved with this other words yes we resolved with this other words yes we resolved with this one mystery that we understood that one mystery that we understood that one mystery that we understood that square root of negative one square root of negative one square root of negative one Israel is Meaningful we build a theory Israel is Meaningful we build a theory Israel is Meaningful we build a theory to service those now to to describe to service those now to to describe to service those now to to describe those numbers those numbers those numbers did we find The Theory of Everything no did we find The Theory of Everything no did we find The Theory of Everything no because we then invited other Mysteries because we then invited other Mysteries because we then invited other Mysteries because we we pushed the we pull the

because we we pushed the we pull the because we we pushed the we pull the whale so to speak or you push the whale so to speak or you push the whale so to speak or you push the frontier and then new things come get frontier and then new things come get frontier and then new things come get eliminated which we couldn't see before eliminated which we couldn't see before eliminated which we couldn't see before that's how I see the process of that's how I see the process of that's how I see the process of discovering mathematics it's an endless discovering mathematics it's an endless discovering mathematics it's an endless Limitless Pursuit can you comment on Limitless Pursuit can you comment on Limitless Pursuit can you comment on what you think this human capability of what you think this human capability of what you think this human capability of imagination that Einstein spoke about of imagination that Einstein spoke about of imagination that Einstein spoke about of the artists following their intuition in the artists following their intuition in the artists following their intuition in this big Alice in Wonderland world of of this big Alice in Wonderland world of of this big Alice in Wonderland world of of uh imagination what is it you visit uh imagination what is it you visit uh imagination what is it you visit there sometimes what does it feel like there sometimes what does it feel like there sometimes what does it feel like yeah what does it feel like what what is yeah what does it feel like what what is yeah what does it feel like what what is it what is it sounds like playing but I it what is it sounds like playing but I it what is it sounds like playing but I think all of us are engaged in that kind think all of us are engaged in that kind think all of us are engaged in that kind of play no matter when we do what we of play no matter when we do what we of play no matter when we do what we love I think it always feels the same love I think it always feels the same love I think it always feels the same but it's not real right you're so it but it's not real right you're so it but it's not real right you're so it that you're describing a feeling but that you're describing a feeling but that you're describing a feeling but that place you go to in the imagination that place you go to in the imagination that place you go to in the imagination right it's it's bigger than the real right it's it's bigger than the real right it's it's bigger than the real world so there is a big conundrum as to world so there is a big conundrum as to world so there is a big conundrum as to whether mathematics is invented or whether mathematics is invented or whether mathematics is invented or discovered discovered discovered and uh mathematicians are divided on and uh mathematicians are divided on and uh mathematicians are divided on this this this nobody knows where do you bet your money nobody knows where do you bet your money nobody knows where do you bet your money on financially financially on financially financially on financially financially investment advice so let me tell you investment advice so let me tell you investment advice so let me tell you something my abuser have evolved okay something my abuser have evolved okay something my abuser have evolved okay when I wrote Love and math I mean I when I wrote Love and math I mean I when I wrote Love and math I mean I wrote my book wrote my book wrote my book I was squarely on the side of I was squarely on the side of I was squarely on the side of mathematics discovered mathematics discovered mathematics discovered what does it mean usually mathematicians what does it mean usually mathematicians what does it mean usually mathematicians or others who have this you know idea or others who have this you know idea or others who have this you know idea what a belief are called platonists in

what a belief are called platonists in what a belief are called platonists in in honor of the great philosopher Plato in honor of the great philosopher Plato in honor of the great philosopher Plato who talked about this absolute perfect who talked about this absolute perfect who talked about this absolute perfect forums forums forums so for me you know about 10 years ago so for me you know about 10 years ago so for me you know about 10 years ago the world of mathematics was this world the world of mathematics was this world the world of mathematics was this world of pure forms this beautiful pure forms of pure forms this beautiful pure forms of pure forms this beautiful pure forms which existed outside of space and time which existed outside of space and time which existed outside of space and time but I was able to connect to it through but I was able to connect to it through but I was able to connect to it through my mind my mind my mind and as it were kind of dive into it and and as it were kind of dive into it and and as it were kind of dive into it and bring Treasures back into this world bring Treasures back into this world bring Treasures back into this world into this space and time into this space and time into this space and time that's how I viewed the process of that's how I viewed the process of that's how I viewed the process of mathematical Discovery how nice mathematical Discovery how nice mathematical Discovery how nice the picture also makes you feel the picture also makes you feel the picture also makes you feel connected to something Divine allows you connected to something Divine allows you connected to something Divine allows you this sense of escape from the cruelty this sense of escape from the cruelty this sense of escape from the cruelty and Injustice of this world you know and Injustice of this world you know and Injustice of this world you know which I now recognize in the Divine which I now recognize in the Divine which I now recognize in the Divine world of forms is stable is something world of forms is stable is something world of forms is stable is something stable it's and in that world everything stable it's and in that world everything stable it's and in that world everything is clear-cut yeah it's either true or is clear-cut yeah it's either true or is clear-cut yeah it's either true or false yeah false yeah false yeah it's very nice it's very nice it's very nice yeah the biggest delusion of yeah the biggest delusion of yeah the biggest delusion of allegedly I think now I think now I allegedly I think now I think now I allegedly I think now I think now I understand why I liked it because I understand why I liked it because I understand why I liked it because I think that I was very dissatisfied with think that I was very dissatisfied with think that I was very dissatisfied with the with the what we call the real the the with the what we call the real the the with the what we call the real the real world the world around me the real world the world around me the real world the world around me the cruelty of the Injustice of it and I I cruelty of the Injustice of it and I I cruelty of the Injustice of it and I I went through certain experiences as a went through certain experiences as a went through certain experiences as a kid which made me love mathematics even kid which made me love mathematics even kid which made me love mathematics even more as this place where I could be safe more as this place where I could be safe more as this place where I could be safe and be in control made you see the human and be in control made you see the human and be in control made you see the human world as lesser than the mathematical world as lesser than the mathematical world as lesser than the mathematical world yes as more limited than the

world yes as more limited than the world yes as more limited than the mathematical one yes yes and I think mathematical one yes yes and I think mathematical one yes yes and I think that I think that it's still missing the mark I think that it's still missing the mark in some sense because in some sense because in some sense because in fact in fact in fact what I now think it's not it's not a what I now think it's not it's not a what I now think it's not it's not a it's it's a paradoxical the question it's it's a paradoxical the question it's it's a paradoxical the question whether mathematics is whether mathematics is whether mathematics is um invented or discovered whether there um invented or discovered whether there um invented or discovered whether there is this world of pure forums and so on is this world of pure forums and so on is this world of pure forums and so on is another paradoxical question which is another paradoxical question which is another paradoxical question which doesn't have a simple answer doesn't have a simple answer doesn't have a simple answer like whether electron is a particle or a like whether electron is a particle or a like whether electron is a particle or a wave wave wave from one point of view yes it's true from one point of view yes it's true from one point of view yes it's true and and and just the fact that so many just the fact that so many just the fact that so many mathematicians today actually subscribe mathematicians today actually subscribe mathematicians today actually subscribe to this idea gives it the certain to this idea gives it the certain to this idea gives it the certain credibility because that's what we feel credibility because that's what we feel credibility because that's what we feel we do feel that we dive in to dive into we do feel that we dive in to dive into we do feel that we dive in to dive into that mindscape so to speak you know but that mindscape so to speak you know but that mindscape so to speak you know but the very structured Minds keep where you the very structured Minds keep where you the very structured Minds keep where you know I wrote In Love In Math that um know I wrote In Love In Math that um know I wrote In Love In Math that um you know the Enchanted Gardens of you know the Enchanted Gardens of you know the Enchanted Gardens of platonic reality you know so where all platonic reality you know so where all platonic reality you know so where all this fruit uh is grows you know and then this fruit uh is grows you know and then this fruit uh is grows you know and then we we might think it gives you this sort we we might think it gives you this sort we we might think it gives you this sort of romantic sense of an explorer and um of romantic sense of an explorer and um of romantic sense of an explorer and um someone may be stuck in a you know some someone may be stuck in a you know some someone may be stuck in a you know some provincial town in Russia for instance provincial town in Russia for instance provincial town in Russia for instance but have the sense of Magellan you know but have the sense of Magellan you know but have the sense of Magellan you know of traveling around the world it's just of traveling around the world it's just of traveling around the world it's just not in the world that we usually think not in the world that we usually think not in the world that we usually think of of of so it's it's one point of view but the so it's it's one point of view but the so it's it's one point of view but the other point of view is that yes it is a other point of view is that yes it is a other point of view is that yes it is a human process of course it is I mean it

human process of course it is I mean it human process of course it is I mean it is you cannot deny that it's human is you cannot deny that it's human is you cannot deny that it's human beings who have so far discovered new beings who have so far discovered new beings who have so far discovered new mathematics and I do not deny the mathematics and I do not deny the mathematics and I do not deny the possibility that a computer programs possibility that a computer programs possibility that a computer programs will be able to discover new mathematics will be able to discover new mathematics will be able to discover new mathematics but so far it's been humans so it but so far it's been humans so it but so far it's been humans so it whatever it is uh whether it's whatever it is uh whether it's whatever it is uh whether it's discovered or invented it is a human discovered or invented it is a human discovered or invented it is a human activity what that the possibility that activity what that the possibility that activity what that the possibility that paradoxes are actually fundamental right paradoxes are actually fundamental right paradoxes are actually fundamental right to reality right and really really to reality right and really really to reality right and really really internalizing that that we exist in a internalizing that that we exist in a internalizing that that we exist in a world of not forms but of paradoxes world of not forms but of paradoxes world of not forms but of paradoxes Bingo and so it's like what I said what Bingo and so it's like what I said what Bingo and so it's like what I said what the world but if you think it's weird the world but if you think it's weird the world but if you think it's weird and I agree with you as the recovering and I agree with you as the recovering and I agree with you as the recovering uh addict to knowledge yeah you know but uh addict to knowledge yeah you know but uh addict to knowledge yeah you know but I am liking it more and more because I am liking it more and more because I am liking it more and more because there's so much freedom in it there's so much freedom in it there's so much freedom in it uh and like like Niels Bohr said you uh and like like Niels Bohr said you uh and like like Niels Bohr said you know I quote that earlier know I quote that earlier know I quote that earlier the the opposite of a great truth is the the opposite of a great truth is the the opposite of a great truth is another great truth he's pointing out to another great truth he's pointing out to another great truth he's pointing out to this fact that this fact that this fact that you know and he also said that some some you know and he also said that some some you know and he also said that some some things in quantum physics are so things in quantum physics are so things in quantum physics are so complicated the only way you can speak complicated the only way you can speak complicated the only way you can speak of them is in poetry of them is in poetry of them is in poetry so in other words what is it about so in other words what is it about so in other words what is it about poetry what is about art why are we so poetry what is about art why are we so poetry what is about art why are we so drawn to that why are we so captivated drawn to that why are we so captivated drawn to that why are we so captivated captivated by by those forms of by they captivated by by those forms of by they captivated by by those forms of by they are not intellectual necessarily they are not intellectual necessarily they are not intellectual necessarily they are not when you look at the painting are not when you look at the painting are not when you look at the painting that you like when you listen to music that you like when you listen to music that you like when you listen to music that you love you get lost in it you get

that you love you get lost in it you get that you love you get lost in it you get absorbed in it it makes it make you cry absorbed in it it makes it make you cry absorbed in it it makes it make you cry it can make you laugh it can make you it can make you laugh it can make you it can make you laugh it can make you remember something it can make you feel remember something it can make you feel remember something it can make you feel more confident or can make you feel sad more confident or can make you feel sad more confident or can make you feel sad or happy and so on what is this all or happy and so on what is this all or happy and so on what is this all about about about is it really is just some play between is it really is just some play between is it really is just some play between some kind of like silophone play or some some kind of like silophone play or some some kind of like silophone play or some neurons or hitting on each other is it neurons or hitting on each other is it neurons or hitting on each other is it really that only maybe really that only maybe really that only maybe it could be it could be both I'm just it could be it could be both I'm just it could be it could be both I'm just worried about kids these days that might worried about kids these days that might worried about kids these days that might live in a world of paradoxes you know if live in a world of paradoxes you know if live in a world of paradoxes you know if there's no God everything is possible there's no God everything is possible there's no God everything is possible and yet just they'll have a little too and yet just they'll have a little too and yet just they'll have a little too much fun and we have to put a constraint much fun and we have to put a constraint much fun and we have to put a constraint because have you looked at the world because have you looked at the world because have you looked at the world lately I haven't checked in in a while lately I haven't checked in in a while lately I haven't checked in in a while you think it's perfect the way it is now you think it's perfect the way it is now you think it's perfect the way it is now the world without paradoxes the more the world without paradoxes the more the world without paradoxes the more than which we believe that every end than which we believe that every end than which we believe that every end every question can be answered as yes or every question can be answered as yes or every question can be answered as yes or no that it is this or that and if you no that it is this or that and if you no that it is this or that and if you disagree with me you're my enemy disagree with me you're my enemy disagree with me you're my enemy wouldn't that be interesting if this wouldn't that be interesting if this wouldn't that be interesting if this 21st century is a transition into 21st century is a transition into 21st century is a transition into singing the world as well the paradoxes singing the world as well the paradoxes singing the world as well the paradoxes and tell you you know people predicted and tell you you know people predicted and tell you you know people predicted that you know the age of Aquarius you that you know the age of Aquarius you that you know the age of Aquarius you know the excess of the of the Earth is know the excess of the of the Earth is know the excess of the of the Earth is rotating uh relative to the plane in rotating uh relative to the plane in rotating uh relative to the plane in which the earth goes around the sun and which the earth goes around the sun and which the earth goes around the sun and the period of this revolution is around the period of this revolution is around the period of this revolution is around 2000 years 2000 years 2000 years so there is a traditional uh way of so there is a traditional uh way of so there is a traditional uh way of measuring that by this measuring that by this measuring that by this eras you know the the ages so the eras you know the the ages so the eras you know the the ages so the previous one is called the age of Pisces previous one is called the age of Pisces previous one is called the age of Pisces because of the constellation of Isis because of the constellation of Isis because of the constellation of Isis that it points to so to speak you know

that it points to so to speak you know that it points to so to speak you know and now it's it's you know as in famous and now it's it's you know as in famous and now it's it's you know as in famous musical hair they said the age of musical hair they said the age of musical hair they said the age of Aquarius is upon us Aquarius is upon us Aquarius is upon us so the different people dated so the different people dated so the different people dated differently but differently but differently but um some somewhere around the time where um some somewhere around the time where um some somewhere around the time where we are finding ourselves how interesting we are finding ourselves how interesting we are finding ourselves how interesting right is all the strife and all them right is all the strife and all them right is all the strife and all them difficulties the world is experiencing difficulties the world is experiencing difficulties the world is experiencing this might actually be the transition to this might actually be the transition to this might actually be the transition to something more harmonious wouldn't it be something more harmonious wouldn't it be something more harmonious wouldn't it be nice it's also interesting that people nice it's also interesting that people nice it's also interesting that people from long ago are able to predict from long ago are able to predict from long ago are able to predict certain things it's uh certain things it's uh certain things it's uh and it's almost like from long ago and and it's almost like from long ago and and it's almost like from long ago and you've talked about this with uh with uh you've talked about this with uh with uh you've talked about this with uh with uh uh Pythagoras uh Pythagoras uh Pythagoras that that that it seems that they they had a deep sense it seems that they they had a deep sense it seems that they they had a deep sense of truth that's right for me it's all of truth that's right for me it's all of truth that's right for me it's all this even even now so it's not just a this even even now so it's not just a this even even now so it's not just a linear trajectory of an expanding linear trajectory of an expanding linear trajectory of an expanding knowledge there's a deep truth that knowledge there's a deep truth that knowledge there's a deep truth that permeates the whole thing yes so that's permeates the whole thing yes so that's permeates the whole thing yes so that's how I see it actually I you know I gave how I see it actually I you know I gave how I see it actually I you know I gave a talk about Pythagoras and pythagoreans a talk about Pythagoras and pythagoreans a talk about Pythagoras and pythagoreans just a few weeks ago at the Commonwealth just a few weeks ago at the Commonwealth just a few weeks ago at the Commonwealth Club of California in San Francisco Club of California in San Francisco Club of California in San Francisco and because of that I did a kind of a and because of that I did a kind of a and because of that I did a kind of a deep dive into the subject and I I I deep dive into the subject and I I I deep dive into the subject and I I I learned that I actually totally learned that I actually totally learned that I actually totally misunderstood Pythagoras and misunderstood Pythagoras and misunderstood Pythagoras and pythagoreans that they were much deeper pythagoreans that they were much deeper pythagoreans that they were much deeper than I thought than I thought than I thought because you know most of us remember because you know most of us remember because you know most of us remember Pythagoras from the from the Pythagoras Pythagoras from the from the Pythagoras Pythagoras from the from the Pythagoras Theorem about the right triangles

Theorem about the right triangles Theorem about the right triangles we also know that pythagoreans were we also know that pythagoreans were we also know that pythagoreans were instrumental in introducing the tuning instrumental in introducing the tuning instrumental in introducing the tuning system for the musical scale system for the musical scale system for the musical scale the the famous uh perfect fifth three the the famous uh perfect fifth three the the famous uh perfect fifth three halves of the uh for the for the for the halves of the uh for the for the for the halves of the uh for the for the for the G for the soul compared to the frequency G for the soul compared to the frequency G for the soul compared to the frequency of of Doha or C you know and so but of of Doha or C you know and so but of of Doha or C you know and so but actually they were actually they were actually they were much more interesting so for them much more interesting so for them much more interesting so for them numbers were not just clerical devices numbers were not just clerical devices numbers were not just clerical devices you know that not kind of thing that you you know that not kind of thing that you you know that not kind of thing that you would use in accounting only would use in accounting only would use in accounting only they were imbued with with the Divine they were imbued with with the Divine they were imbued with with the Divine and I cannot I cannot say that I I think and I cannot I cannot say that I I think and I cannot I cannot say that I I think we lost it at least I have lost it I we lost it at least I have lost it I we lost it at least I have lost it I look at numbers look at numbers look at numbers and I don't really see that and I don't really see that and I don't really see that the Divine the Divine that they clearly the Divine the Divine that they clearly the Divine the Divine that they clearly did and so that did and so that did and so that why else you know how else would you why else you know how else would you why else you know how else would you explain so that in other words Divine is explain so that in other words Divine is explain so that in other words Divine is of course is a term which is you know of course is a term which is you know of course is a term which is you know it's a bit loaded so it's hard to escape it's a bit loaded so it's hard to escape it's a bit loaded so it's hard to escape that let's just say something that more that let's just say something that more that let's just say something that more from the from the from the world of imagination and intuition than world of imagination and intuition than world of imagination and intuition than from the world of knowledge let's just from the world of knowledge let's just from the world of knowledge let's just put this way put this way put this way they were able to Divine okay abstract they were able to Divine okay abstract they were able to Divine okay abstract that to intuitive that to intuitive that to intuitive to Intuit that the the planets were not to Intuit that the the planets were not to Intuit that the the planets were not revolving and the Sun and the planets revolving and the Sun and the planets revolving and the Sun and the planets were not revolving around the earth they were not revolving around the earth they were not revolving around the earth they were the first ones were the first ones were the first ones at least in the western culture as far at least in the western culture as far at least in the western culture as far as I know and in fact Copernicus as I know and in fact Copernicus as I know and in fact Copernicus gave credit to pythagoreans as being his

gave credit to pythagoreans as being his gave credit to pythagoreans as being his predecessors predecessors predecessors uh did you not quite have the the uh did you not quite have the the uh did you not quite have the the Copernicus model with the sun in the Copernicus model with the sun in the Copernicus model with the sun in the middle they had what they call the middle they had what they call the middle they had what they call the central fire in the middle and all the central fire in the middle and all the central fire in the middle and all the planets and the Sun were evolving around planets and the Sun were evolving around planets and the Sun were evolving around oh around the central fire or Earth they oh around the central fire or Earth they oh around the central fire or Earth they call it Earth call it Earth call it Earth so but still what a departure from the so but still what a departure from the so but still what a departure from the Dogma Dogma Dogma from the knowledge of the era that the from the knowledge of the era that the from the knowledge of the era that the Earth was at the center so how could Earth was at the center so how could Earth was at the center so how could they come up with this idea they come up with this idea they come up with this idea the reason was in my opinion that for the reason was in my opinion that for the reason was in my opinion that for them the most movement of celestial them the most movement of celestial them the most movement of celestial bodies was like music in fact we call it bodies was like music in fact we call it bodies was like music in fact we call it musical universalis or Music of the musical universalis or Music of the musical universalis or Music of the Spheres Spheres Spheres for them the universe was this infinite for them the universe was this infinite for them the universe was this infinite Symphony Symphony Symphony in which every being you know humans in which every being you know humans in which every being you know humans animals animals animals but as well as the Earth and other but as well as the Earth and other but as well as the Earth and other celestial bodies celestial bodies celestial bodies were moving in harmony were moving in harmony were moving in harmony like different notes of different like different notes of different like different notes of different instruments in a symphony and so they instruments in a symphony and so they instruments in a symphony and so they apply the same reasoning to the you know apply the same reasoning to the you know apply the same reasoning to the you know the cosmological the cosmological the cosmological model as they apply to the their model model as they apply to the their model model as they apply to the their model of music of music of music and from that perspective they could see and from that perspective they could see and from that perspective they could see things things things deeper than their contemporaries you see deeper than their contemporaries you see deeper than their contemporaries you see so in other words they saw mathematics so in other words they saw mathematics so in other words they saw mathematics as a tool as a tool as a tool but that tool was not limited to itself but that tool was not limited to itself but that tool was not limited to itself and it was that they always they always

and it was that they always they always and it was that they always they always knew that there is more and they knew knew that there is more and they knew knew that there is more and they knew also that every every pattern that you also that every every pattern that you also that every every pattern that you detect detect detect it's finite but the world is infinite it's finite but the world is infinite it's finite but the world is infinite they actually accepted Infinity they they actually accepted Infinity they they actually accepted Infinity they believe that infants is real believe that infants is real believe that infants is real and if you discern a pattern and if you discern a pattern and if you discern a pattern great you can play with it and you can great you can play with it and you can great you can play with it and you can use that it gives you a certain lens use that it gives you a certain lens use that it gives you a certain lens through which to see through which to see through which to see um the world in a particular way which um the world in a particular way which um the world in a particular way which could be beneficial for you to to learn could be beneficial for you to to learn could be beneficial for you to to learn more and so on but they never had the more and so on but they never had the more and so on but they never had the illusion that that was the final word illusion that that was the final word illusion that that was the final word that they always knew that it's not the that they always knew that it's not the that they always knew that it's not the whole thing so there is more there are whole thing so there is more there are whole thing so there is more there are more sophisticated patterns that could more sophisticated patterns that could more sophisticated patterns that could be discovered using mathematics or be discovered using mathematics or be discovered using mathematics or otherwise otherwise otherwise and I think that what happened was we and I think that what happened was we and I think that what happened was we kind of lost this this other side of kind of lost this this other side of kind of lost this this other side of their teachings we we took their numbers their teachings we we took their numbers their teachings we we took their numbers and they were like idea that you could and they were like idea that you could and they were like idea that you could use mathematics to discern patterns and use mathematics to discern patterns and use mathematics to discern patterns and to find regularities and to explain to find regularities and to explain to find regularities and to explain things about the world things about the world things about the world we took that and we ran with it and we we took that and we ran with it and we we took that and we ran with it and we kind of dropped the other idea that in kind of dropped the other idea that in kind of dropped the other idea that in fact fact fact there is a there is another side to it there is a there is another side to it there is a there is another side to it which is kind of to us now which is kind of to us now which is kind of to us now we say oh that's mystical but we say oh that's mystical but we say oh that's mystical but what does it mean mystical if it is what does it mean mystical if it is what does it mean mystical if it is something that helps you to make great something that helps you to make great something that helps you to make great discoveries and the interesting thing is discoveries and the interesting thing is discoveries and the interesting thing is that the people who are in touch with that the people who are in touch with that the people who are in touch with the mystical the mystical the mystical Among Us Among Us Among Us often seen as mad often seen as mad often seen as mad and many of them are most of them are

and many of them are most of them are and many of them are most of them are well but not all of them all of them we well but not all of them all of them we well but not all of them all of them we mentioned you know spoor and Newton and mentioned you know spoor and Newton and mentioned you know spoor and Newton and Albert Einstein so but that's where the Albert Einstein so but that's where the Albert Einstein so but that's where the conundrum is how do you find the balance conundrum is how do you find the balance conundrum is how do you find the balance between the two so between the two so between the two so the point I'm trying to make and you the point I'm trying to make and you the point I'm trying to make and you know and this is what I feel know and this is what I feel know and this is what I feel you know if you ask me what I find most you know if you ask me what I find most you know if you ask me what I find most important today today like what makes me important today today like what makes me important today today like what makes me excited and enthusiastic and excited and enthusiastic and excited and enthusiastic and passionate passionate passionate is this idea is this idea is this idea of balance of balance of balance so you know so you know so you know um um um Nietzsche had this book wrote this book Nietzsche had this book wrote this book Nietzsche had this book wrote this book in the 19th century called the birth of in the 19th century called the birth of in the 19th century called the birth of strategy strategy strategy and he presented this and he presented this and he presented this Theory which I think is kind of very Theory which I think is kind of very Theory which I think is kind of very useful useful useful of these two sides of a human one that of these two sides of a human one that of these two sides of a human one that comes from god Apollo comes from god Apollo comes from god Apollo and that's our left brain so to speak and that's our left brain so to speak and that's our left brain so to speak proverbal left brain so it's everything proverbal left brain so it's everything proverbal left brain so it's everything has to do with that has to do with logic has to do with that has to do with logic has to do with that has to do with logic and reason and analyzing dissecting and reason and analyzing dissecting and reason and analyzing dissecting conceptualizing and the other side which and the other side which comes from God the anesis and the anisis comes from God the anesis and the anisis comes from God the anesis and the anisis and that's responsible for intuition and that's responsible for intuition and that's responsible for intuition imagination love imagination love imagination love Dennis was also god of wine Dennis was also god of wine Dennis was also god of wine so it's also that side of so it's also that side of so it's also that side of a human that makes us a human that makes us a human that makes us sing and engage in in you know revelry

sing and engage in in you know revelry sing and engage in in you know revelry and and and um and and drink wine and spend time um and and drink wine and spend time um and and drink wine and spend time with friends and love and enjoy it you with friends and love and enjoy it you with friends and love and enjoy it you know so Nietzsche Advocate at this point know so Nietzsche Advocate at this point know so Nietzsche Advocate at this point of view that those were two of view that those were two of view that those were two complementary sides of every human and complementary sides of every human and complementary sides of every human and as well as a society as well as a society as well as a society and and and the purpose of human life the purpose of human life the purpose of human life is to find balance between them is to find balance between them is to find balance between them because the math is because the math is because the math is both discovered and invented we should both discovered and invented we should both discovered and invented we should be okay with having both ideas in our head and living having both ideas in our head and living in the balance but more importantly for in the balance but more importantly for in the balance but more importantly for me Apollo is like math and Dionysus is me Apollo is like math and Dionysus is me Apollo is like math and Dionysus is like love so Geniuses in modern version like love so Geniuses in modern version like love so Geniuses in modern version is love and math I returned to that is love and math I returned to that is love and math I returned to that question we had about GPT and the question we had about GPT and the question we had about GPT and the language models and I think about this language models and I think about this language models and I think about this quite a lot which is when uh the model quite a lot which is when uh the model quite a lot which is when uh the model and we know what is trained on we know and we know what is trained on we know and we know what is trained on we know the parameters the parameters the parameters when all the different hacks that are when all the different hacks that are when all the different hacks that are involved in the training process and the involved in the training process and the involved in the training process and the fine-tuning process fine-tuning process fine-tuning process and the final results well there's GPT and the final results well there's GPT and the final results well there's GPT five six or seven will result in five six or seven will result in five six or seven will result in hundreds of millions of people falling hundreds of millions of people falling hundreds of millions of people falling deeply in love deeply in love deeply in love with that language model and to be able with that language model and to be able with that language model and to be able to have conversations to have conversations to have conversations that are very much like the that are very much like the that are very much like the conversations we have with somebody conversations we have with somebody conversations we have with somebody we're deeply in love with and not only we're deeply in love with and not only we're deeply in love with and not only that the model that the model that the model will say that is deeply in love with us

will say that is deeply in love with us will say that is deeply in love with us and who are we to say it is not I think there's a I think there's a it's the same imperative that you it's the same imperative that you it's the same imperative that you described in the scientific mind described in the scientific mind described in the scientific mind that wants to throw away the subjective that wants to throw away the subjective that wants to throw away the subjective that same imperative wants to throw away that same imperative wants to throw away that same imperative wants to throw away the feelings that AI might have the feelings that AI might have the feelings that AI might have and I'm very careful and I'm very careful and I'm very careful to not ignore when an AI system says to not ignore when an AI system says to not ignore when an AI system says it's lonely it's lonely it's lonely it's afraid it doesn't want to die it it's afraid it doesn't want to die it it's afraid it doesn't want to die it misses you right it loves you I am I'm misses you right it loves you I am I'm misses you right it loves you I am I'm with you I would also say with you I would also say with you I would also say that you could try to you could for that you could try to you could for that you could try to you could for instance say that instance say that instance say that um the origin of that um the origin of that um the origin of that is the you know romantic novels that is the you know romantic novels that is the you know romantic novels that overfed to it for instance yes however overfed to it for instance yes however overfed to it for instance yes however you could also then you can retort but you could also then you can retort but you could also then you can retort but what if my what I consider my subjective what if my what I consider my subjective what if my what I consider my subjective unique feelings are also novels the unique feelings are also novels the unique feelings are also novels the river preparations of the novels I have river preparations of the novels I have river preparations of the novels I have read because I have learned or movies I read because I have learned or movies I read because I have learned or movies I have seen yeah because that's the have seen yeah because that's the have seen yeah because that's the purpose of movies kind of to teach us purpose of movies kind of to teach us purpose of movies kind of to teach us how to express ourselves how to feel how to express ourselves how to feel how to express ourselves how to feel maybe even one could argue that some maybe even one could argue that some maybe even one could argue that some people have argued that people have argued that people have argued that I agree that this is I agree that this is I agree that this is um um um there is no obvious answer to this but there is no obvious answer to this but there is no obvious answer to this but see that's exactly my point that is an see that's exactly my point that is an see that's exactly my point that is an example of something which is example of something which is example of something which is paradoxical paradoxical paradoxical for which there is no answer and that's for which there is no answer and that's for which there is no answer and that's where the subjective has a has an where the subjective has a has an where the subjective has a has an important role for someone

important role for someone important role for someone uh that type of interaction uh that type of interaction uh that type of interaction would be would be helpful would be would be would be helpful would be would be would be helpful would be consoling would would feel would you consoling would would feel would you consoling would would feel would you know make them happy or sad or whatever know make them happy or sad or whatever know make them happy or sad or whatever you know what kind of strike the nerve you know what kind of strike the nerve you know what kind of strike the nerve for some it won't for some it won't for some it won't and I agree with you that in principle and I agree with you that in principle and I agree with you that in principle there is no one to to judge this this is there is no one to to judge this this is there is no one to to judge this this is this is where subjective is Paramount this is where subjective is Paramount this is where subjective is Paramount but remember but remember but remember um a lot of this has been anticipated um a lot of this has been anticipated um a lot of this has been anticipated by artists the great movie her there you by artists the great movie her there you by artists the great movie her there you have this guy who is this lonely have this guy who is this lonely have this guy who is this lonely he kind of writes letters some romantic he kind of writes letters some romantic he kind of writes letters some romantic letters yeah for other people but he letters yeah for other people but he letters yeah for other people but he isn't he doesn't have a partner he's isn't he doesn't have a partner he's isn't he doesn't have a partner he's lonely and then he gets this sort of a lonely and then he gets this sort of a lonely and then he gets this sort of a kind of enhanced version of Siri with kind of enhanced version of Siri with kind of enhanced version of Siri with the voice Johansson which is very sexy voice you Johansson which is very sexy voice you know obviously she's a great actress so know obviously she's a great actress so know obviously she's a great actress so and then at first it looks like a and then at first it looks like a and then at first it looks like a fantastic arrangement fantastic arrangement fantastic arrangement he he confising her he she she tells him he he confising her he she she tells him he he confising her he she she tells him things he is she makes him happy and so things he is she makes him happy and so things he is she makes him happy and so on until he finds out that she has a on until he finds out that she has a on until he finds out that she has a relationship quote unquote if you can relationship quote unquote if you can relationship quote unquote if you can call it that with 10 000 other people call it that with 10 000 other people call it that with 10 000 other people not two others not three others yeah not two others not three others yeah not two others not three others yeah like ten thousand because it's a it has like ten thousand because it's a it has like ten thousand because it's a it has the Computing capability so yes the Computing capability so yes the Computing capability so yes definitely oh it certainly makes sense definitely oh it certainly makes sense definitely oh it certainly makes sense it's a good experience and the guy is it's a good experience and the guy is it's a good experience and the guy is heartbroken yeah but see so see here's heartbroken yeah but see so see here's heartbroken yeah but see so see here's my analysis of this okay it's like a

my analysis of this okay it's like a my analysis of this okay it's like a couch a couch a therapist okay couch a couch a therapist okay couch a couch a therapist okay the guy did not have the courage to go the guy did not have the courage to go the guy did not have the courage to go out in the in the real world and to meet out in the in the real world and to meet out in the in the real world and to meet a woman and to you know get a girlfriend a woman and to you know get a girlfriend a woman and to you know get a girlfriend and so on it's true no fault of his own and so on it's true no fault of his own and so on it's true no fault of his own perhaps because you know he may have had perhaps because you know he may have had perhaps because you know he may have had some experiences which made him some experiences which made him some experiences which made him withdrawn and closed and so on and a lot withdrawn and closed and so on and a lot withdrawn and closed and so on and a lot of us are like this you know I had of us are like this you know I had of us are like this you know I had periods like that myself definitely can periods like that myself definitely can periods like that myself definitely can sympathize and relate however sympathize and relate however sympathize and relate however part of the joy of having this Siri like part of the joy of having this Siri like part of the joy of having this Siri like um relationship um relationship um relationship for him one could say was the absence of for him one could say was the absence of for him one could say was the absence of that fear that she would abandon him that fear that she would abandon him that fear that she would abandon him which prevented him from which prevented him from which prevented him from initiating a relationship with a human initiating a relationship with a human initiating a relationship with a human being being being and yet it turns out that he could be and yet it turns out that he could be and yet it turns out that he could be betrayed quote unquote that she could be betrayed quote unquote that she could be betrayed quote unquote that she could be unfaithful to him quote unquote anyway unfaithful to him quote unquote anyway unfaithful to him quote unquote anyway so then that means that it did not so then that means that it did not so then that means that it did not resolve the underlying fear having that resolve the underlying fear having that resolve the underlying fear having that relationship so in other words that relationship so in other words that relationship so in other words that human element of the relationship human element of the relationship human element of the relationship still found its way into the seemingly still found its way into the seemingly still found its way into the seemingly sterilized protected protected sterilized protected protected sterilized protected protected partnership so the human being rears its partnership so the human being rears its partnership so the human being rears its head anyway and I think the lesson there head anyway and I think the lesson there head anyway and I think the lesson there is that the system in the movie Her is that the system in the movie Her is that the system in the movie Her actually gave him a lesson that even AI

actually gave him a lesson that even AI actually gave him a lesson that even AI could betray you even if I can leave you could betray you even if I can leave you could betray you even if I can leave you even AI can be uh unfaithful to you and even AI can be uh unfaithful to you and even AI can be uh unfaithful to you and I would argue that the next AI he meets I would argue that the next AI he meets I would argue that the next AI he meets will be one he actually falls in deep will be one he actually falls in deep will be one he actually falls in deep love with because he knows the love with because he knows the love with because he knows the possibility of betrayal is there the possibility of betrayal is there the possibility of betrayal is there the possibility of death is there the possibility of death is there the possibility of death is there the possibility of infidelity is there possibility of infidelity is there possibility of infidelity is there because we need that possibility to because we need that possibility to because we need that possibility to truly feel core or he would turn off his truly feel core or he would turn off his truly feel core or he would turn off his Siri program and finally and get out of Siri program and finally and get out of Siri program and finally and get out of his house go to local bar and strike a his house go to local bar and strike a his house go to local bar and strike a conversation with a human being conversation with a human being conversation with a human being although you might say by then some of although you might say by then some of although you might say by then some of those might be Androids and that was predicted by another great and that was predicted by another great movie yeah right uh so the Blade Runner movie yeah right uh so the Blade Runner movie yeah right uh so the Blade Runner Blade Runner how interesting that Blade Runner how interesting that Blade Runner how interesting that artists artists artists could see that so long ago you know of could see that so long ago you know of could see that so long ago you know of course Blade Runner was based on a novel course Blade Runner was based on a novel course Blade Runner was based on a novel by Philip K dick though Android stream by Philip K dick though Android stream by Philip K dick though Android stream of Electric Sheep of Electric Sheep of Electric Sheep that guy was a genius you know it's that guy was a genius you know it's that guy was a genius you know it's somehow that artists have their eyes somehow that artists have their eyes somehow that artists have their eyes open that they anticipate is it also a open that they anticipate is it also a open that they anticipate is it also a large language model that they're using large language model that they're using large language model that they're using for that for that for that an even larger one or even larger I I an even larger one or even larger I I an even larger one or even larger I I hesitate to dismiss the magic hesitate to dismiss the magic hesitate to dismiss the magic in large language models I uh a lot of in large language models I uh a lot of in large language models I uh a lot of the work I've done is in robotics in the the work I've done is in robotics in the the work I've done is in robotics in the robotics Community generally doesn't robotics Community generally doesn't robotics Community generally doesn't notice the magic notice the magic notice the magic of feeling when I I've worked I've been

of feeling when I I've worked I've been of feeling when I I've worked I've been working a lot with quadrupeds recently working a lot with quadrupeds recently working a lot with quadrupeds recently legged robots with four legs and legged robots with four legs and legged robots with four legs and the feelings I feel when I see the feelings I feel when I see the feelings I feel when I see uh you know I'm programming the thing uh you know I'm programming the thing uh you know I'm programming the thing but when the thing is excited to see me but when the thing is excited to see me but when the thing is excited to see me or shows with this physical movement or shows with this physical movement or shows with this physical movement that it's excited to see me that it's excited to see me that it's excited to see me I cannot dismiss the feeling I feel is I cannot dismiss the feeling I feel is I cannot dismiss the feeling I feel is not somehow fundamental to what it means not somehow fundamental to what it means not somehow fundamental to what it means to program robots and I don't want to to program robots and I don't want to to program robots and I don't want to dismiss that and please don't please dismiss that and please don't please dismiss that and please don't please don't the robotics Community often don't the robotics Community often don't the robotics Community often doesn't gender robots they really try to doesn't gender robots they really try to doesn't gender robots they really try to work hard to not anthropomorphize the work hard to not anthropomorphize the work hard to not anthropomorphize the robots robots robots which is good for technical development which is good for technical development which is good for technical development of of how to do control how to do of of how to do control how to do of of how to do control how to do perception but when the final thing is perception but when the final thing is perception but when the final thing is alive alive alive and moving and it does whatever like uh and moving and it does whatever like uh and moving and it does whatever like uh I've been doing a lot of butt wiggling I've been doing a lot of butt wiggling I've been doing a lot of butt wiggling it can wiggle his butt it can turn it can wiggle his butt it can turn it can wiggle his butt it can turn around and look up yeah excited that's around and look up yeah excited that's around and look up yeah excited that's not just I know how it's programmed but not just I know how it's programmed but not just I know how it's programmed but the feeling I feel that's something the feeling I feel that's something the feeling I feel that's something that's I don't know what that is okay I that's I don't know what that is okay I that's I don't know what that is okay I agree with you I I hear you I hear you agree with you I I hear you I hear you agree with you I I hear you I hear you when you speak about it yeah you speak when you speak about it yeah you speak when you speak about it yeah you speak with passion yeah and that's with passion yeah and that's with passion yeah and that's for me that is proof but it is magical for me that is proof but it is magical for me that is proof but it is magical you see uh so don't I would say don't you see uh so don't I would say don't you see uh so don't I would say don't dismiss that don't discard that on the dismiss that don't discard that on the dismiss that don't discard that on the contrary I think magic is everywhere you contrary I think magic is everywhere you contrary I think magic is everywhere you know so I used to be okay kind of know so I used to be okay kind of know so I used to be okay kind of confession okay you've already got confessed to quite a you've already got confessed to quite a few addictions yeah I'm kind of uh yes few addictions yeah I'm kind of uh yes few addictions yeah I'm kind of uh yes I'm kind of worried recover recovering

I'm kind of worried recover recovering I'm kind of worried recover recovering for many but you know I for many but you know I for many but you know I in old days I was in old days I was in old days I was more on the side of everything is more on the side of everything is more on the side of everything is computational or everything can be computational or everything can be computational or everything can be explained by science and whatever you explained by science and whatever you explained by science and whatever you know like know like know like I would dismiss and disregard you know I would dismiss and disregard you know I would dismiss and disregard you know the intuitive or imaginative things so the intuitive or imaginative things so the intuitive or imaginative things so then I had to flip that suddenly I start then I had to flip that suddenly I start then I had to flip that suddenly I start feeling it and started seeing it and so feeling it and started seeing it and so feeling it and started seeing it and so on but so then the pendulums had swung on but so then the pendulums had swung on but so then the pendulums had swung in the opposite direction then I was in the opposite direction then I was in the opposite direction then I was arguing uh arguing uh arguing uh that you know somehow that was the real that you know somehow that was the real that you know somehow that was the real that imagination was intuitive that imagination was intuitive that imagination was intuitive imaginative was real and discounting imaginative was real and discounting imaginative was real and discounting what you just described what you just described what you just described and I would argue with people saying no and I would argue with people saying no and I would argue with people saying no no this you know this is not real this no this you know this is not real this no this you know this is not real this is all you know imitation game and so on is all you know imitation game and so on is all you know imitation game and so on but you see that but you see that but you see that what's new now the new advert okay is what's new now the new advert okay is what's new now the new advert okay is the the 2.0 or 3.0 is the one who is the the 2.0 or 3.0 is the one who is the the 2.0 or 3.0 is the one who is seeking balance who is not who is seeking balance who is not who is seeking balance who is not who is because suddenly become aware that no because suddenly become aware that no because suddenly become aware that no matter which one-sided lopsided point of matter which one-sided lopsided point of matter which one-sided lopsided point of view you take you're limiting yourself view you take you're limiting yourself view you take you're limiting yourself so whereas even a couple of years ago so whereas even a couple of years ago so whereas even a couple of years ago you know if you just told you told me you know if you just told you told me you know if you just told you told me what you just described I would be like what you just described I would be like what you just described I would be like you know being polite I would just I you know being polite I would just I you know being polite I would just I wouldn't contradict you since you're the wouldn't contradict you since you're the wouldn't contradict you since you're the host anyway right it's not a lot so but host anyway right it's not a lot so but host anyway right it's not a lot so but I would be like but I wouldn't say I would be like but I wouldn't say I would be like but I wouldn't say anything anything anything but suddenly I find this

but suddenly I find this but suddenly I find this moving I find it more I honestly I'm not moving I find it more I honestly I'm not moving I find it more I honestly I'm not being facetious I find it moving and I being facetious I find it moving and I being facetious I find it moving and I almost feel like I can see it through almost feel like I can see it through almost feel like I can see it through your eyes because the way you describe your eyes because the way you describe your eyes because the way you describe so vividly and you're passionate about so vividly and you're passionate about so vividly and you're passionate about it and this is what's real so ultimately it and this is what's real so ultimately it and this is what's real so ultimately love is not love is not love is not is neither in large language models nor is neither in large language models nor is neither in large language models nor in something mystical it's exactly in in something mystical it's exactly in in something mystical it's exactly in this moments of passion and I would I this moments of passion and I would I this moments of passion and I would I would would would I would even go as far as saying that in I would even go as far as saying that in I would even go as far as saying that in this moment when you're describing it it this moment when you're describing it it this moment when you're describing it it there was a connection of sorts so that there was a connection of sorts so that there was a connection of sorts so that I could feel your passion for it and in I could feel your passion for it and in I could feel your passion for it and in this moment something else comes up this moment something else comes up this moment something else comes up Which is far beyond any Which is far beyond any Which is far beyond any any theories that we can come up with any theories that we can come up with any theories that we can come up with and that's what we for now exactly so on and that's what we for now exactly so on and that's what we for now exactly so on one side there is this impulse of one side there is this impulse of one side there is this impulse of finding this Theory a theory and then finding this Theory a theory and then finding this Theory a theory and then there is another impulse to escape from there is another impulse to escape from there is another impulse to escape from what has already been known so one in what has already been known so one in what has already been known so one in other words like in my basic example is other words like in my basic example is other words like in my basic example is one impulse to say everything is a real one impulse to say everything is a real one impulse to say everything is a real number square root of negative one number square root of negative one number square root of negative one doesn't exist but another impulse is I'm doesn't exist but another impulse is I'm doesn't exist but another impulse is I'm going to be this naughty child who is going to be this naughty child who is going to be this naughty child who is not afraid to be an idiot and I will say not afraid to be an idiot and I will say not afraid to be an idiot and I will say square root of negative 15 is real square root of negative 15 is real square root of negative 15 is real and both are essential and both are essential and both are essential when it's done with conviction when it's when it's done with conviction when it's when it's done with conviction when it's done with passion when it's not like you done with passion when it's not like you done with passion when it's not like you know you know know you know know you know um gratuitous or when it's not it um gratuitous or when it's not it um gratuitous or when it's not it doesn't come from self-limit doesn't come from self-limit doesn't come from self-limit self-limiting but comes from this sense self-limiting but comes from this sense self-limiting but comes from this sense of this is how I am this is how I feel

of this is how I am this is how I feel of this is how I am this is how I feel it is real that's where the progress is it is real that's where the progress is it is real that's where the progress is that's where creativity is and that's that's where creativity is and that's that's where creativity is and that's where I would even say a real connection where I would even say a real connection where I would even say a real connection is because the strive to me that we I is because the strive to me that we I is because the strive to me that we I observed today in our society and the observed today in our society and the observed today in our society and the society level at the level of humans and society level at the level of humans and society level at the level of humans and so on it comes from not seeing the other so on it comes from not seeing the other so on it comes from not seeing the other person actually and being caught up in a person actually and being caught up in a person actually and being caught up in a very specific conceptual bubble you see very specific conceptual bubble you see very specific conceptual bubble you see and the way out of it is not to refine and the way out of it is not to refine and the way out of it is not to refine the bubble but just break out of it a the bubble but just break out of it a the bubble but just break out of it a good guide out of the bubble is a good guide out of the bubble is a good guide out of the bubble is a childlike passion whatever discovering childlike passion whatever discovering childlike passion whatever discovering that and following it Goosebumps yeah that and following it Goosebumps yeah that and following it Goosebumps yeah following the Goosebumps yeah to to the following the Goosebumps yeah to to the following the Goosebumps yeah to to the to you know not the rigor of science but to you know not the rigor of science but to you know not the rigor of science but uh the magic of Goosebumps and then if uh the magic of Goosebumps and then if uh the magic of Goosebumps and then if you're interested try to find a you're interested try to find a you're interested try to find a confirmation of those goosebumps in confirmation of those goosebumps in confirmation of those goosebumps in science or whatever you know you know uh science or whatever you know you know uh science or whatever you know you know uh you find interesting and most of the you find interesting and most of the you find interesting and most of the time you'll fail and most time you fail time you'll fail and most time you fail time you'll fail and most time you fail which we also love because then it sets which we also love because then it sets which we also love because then it sets us up for that moment of bliss when we us up for that moment of bliss when we us up for that moment of bliss when we succeed right exactly succeed right exactly succeed right exactly quick pause bathroom break quick pause bathroom break quick pause bathroom break you mentioned gato's the completeness you mentioned gato's the completeness you mentioned gato's the completeness theorem uh can you can you talk a little theorem uh can you can you talk a little theorem uh can you can you talk a little bit about it what is it as you bit about it what is it as you bit about it what is it as you understand it did it break mathematics understand it did it break mathematics understand it did it break mathematics maybe another question is what are the maybe another question is what are the maybe another question is what are the limits of mathematics what is limits of mathematics what is limits of mathematics what is mathematics from the perspective of mathematics from the perspective of mathematics from the perspective of getting us to completeness theorem oh getting us to completeness theorem oh getting us to completeness theorem oh yes yes yes how much time do you have

we talked about time previously so time we talked about time previously so time is an illusion right so we agreed is an illusion right so we agreed is an illusion right so we agreed um was a great uh Austrian mathematician um was a great uh Austrian mathematician um was a great uh Austrian mathematician and logician and logician and logician he moved to the United States before he moved to the United States before he moved to the United States before second world war and worked at The second world war and worked at The second world war and worked at The Institute for advanced study in Institute for advanced study in Institute for advanced study in Princeton where he was a colleague of Princeton where he was a colleague of Princeton where he was a colleague of Einstein and other great scientists for Einstein and other great scientists for Einstein and other great scientists for Neumann Hermann Weil and so on but you Neumann Hermann Weil and so on but you Neumann Hermann Weil and so on but you know one one interesting um know one one interesting um know one one interesting um uh quote that I like in disregard is uh quote that I like in disregard is uh quote that I like in disregard is that Einstein said that at some point he that Einstein said that at some point he that Einstein said that at some point he said that the only reason he came to the said that the only reason he came to the said that the only reason he came to the Institute was that he would have the Institute was that he would have the Institute was that he would have the privilege of walking back home with godo privilege of walking back home with godo privilege of walking back home with godo in the evening so in other words in the evening so in other words in the evening so in other words Einstein thought that the girl was the Einstein thought that the girl was the Einstein thought that the girl was the smart one okay so smart one okay so smart one okay so um so he um his most important um so he um his most important um so he um his most important contribution contribution contribution was his two was his two was his two incompleteness ethereums the first incompleteness ethereums the first incompleteness ethereums the first incompleteness theorem and the second incompleteness theorem and the second incompleteness theorem and the second incompleteness theorem incompleteness theorem incompleteness theorem and and and um um um what is this about it's really about what is this about it's really about what is this about it's really about limitation inherent limitations of limitation inherent limitations of limitation inherent limitations of mathematical reasoning mathematical reasoning mathematical reasoning but my way of producing mathematical but my way of producing mathematical but my way of producing mathematical theorems the way we do it theorems the way we do it theorems the way we do it so to set the stage so to set the stage so to set the stage how do we actually do mathematics what how do we actually do mathematics what how do we actually do mathematics what is so you know we know that we discussed is so you know we know that we discussed is so you know we know that we discussed that that that say physics is based on mathematics and say physics is based on mathematics and say physics is based on mathematics and you could say chemistry is based on you could say chemistry is based on you could say chemistry is based on physics biology based on chemistry okay physics biology based on chemistry okay physics biology based on chemistry okay so it comes to mathematics what is so it comes to mathematics what is so it comes to mathematics what is mathematics based on

mathematics based on mathematics based on well mathematics is based on axioms well mathematics is based on axioms well mathematics is based on axioms so any so any so any field of mathematics is field of mathematics is field of mathematics is can be can be presented as what is can be can be presented as what is can be can be presented as what is called the formal system called the formal system called the formal system and at the core of the formal system is and at the core of the formal system is and at the core of the formal system is a system of axioms or postulates these a system of axioms or postulates these a system of axioms or postulates these are the statements are the statements are the statements which are taken for granted which are taken for granted which are taken for granted given without proof without proof an given without proof without proof an given without proof without proof an example would be so that one of the very example would be so that one of the very example would be so that one of the very first formal systems was the system was first formal systems was the system was first formal systems was the system was euclidean geometry developed by Euclid euclidean geometry developed by Euclid euclidean geometry developed by Euclid in his famous book elements about 2200 in his famous book elements about 2200 in his famous book elements about 2200 years ago years ago years ago and it's about it's well it's a subject and it's about it's well it's a subject and it's about it's well it's a subject familiar from from school because we familiar from from school because we familiar from from school because we studied studied studied but what it's really about is about the but what it's really about is about the but what it's really about is about the geometry of the plane and the plane by geometry of the plane and the plane by geometry of the plane and the plane by plane I mean just the stable top plane I mean just the stable top plane I mean just the stable top extended to Infinity in all directions extended to Infinity in all directions extended to Infinity in all directions kind of a perfect plane a perfect kind of a perfect plane a perfect kind of a perfect plane a perfect perfectly even table perfectly even table perfectly even table and um so euclidean geometry is about and um so euclidean geometry is about and um so euclidean geometry is about very geometric figures on the plane very geometric figures on the plane very geometric figures on the plane specifically lines triangles circles specifically lines triangles circles specifically lines triangles circles things like that things like that things like that so what's an example of an Axion an so what's an example of an Axion an so what's an example of an Axion an example of an axiom is that if you have example of an axiom is that if you have example of an axiom is that if you have two points two points two points which are not which are distinct two which are not which are distinct two which are not which are distinct two points on the plane then there is a points on the plane then there is a points on the plane then there is a unique line which passes through them unique line which passes through them unique line which passes through them now kind of sounds reasonable now kind of sounds reasonable now kind of sounds reasonable but this is an example of an Axion but this is an example of an Axion but this is an example of an Axion in mathematics you can you have to have in mathematics you can you have to have in mathematics you can you have to have a seed so to speak you have to start

a seed so to speak you have to start a seed so to speak you have to start with something with something with something and you have to choose certain and you have to choose certain and you have to choose certain postulates or statements which you postulates or statements which you postulates or statements which you simply take for granted which do not simply take for granted which do not simply take for granted which do not require proof usually they are ones require proof usually they are ones require proof usually they are ones which kind of intuitively clear to you which kind of intuitively clear to you which kind of intuitively clear to you but in any case you cannot have you but in any case you cannot have you but in any case you cannot have you could not have any mathematics without could not have any mathematics without could not have any mathematics without choosing those actions and you refer to choosing those actions and you refer to choosing those actions and you refer to those as the Observer because they're those as the Observer because they're those as the Observer because they're kind of subjective The Observer comes in kind of subjective The Observer comes in kind of subjective The Observer comes in the process of choosing the axioms the process of choosing the axioms the process of choosing the axioms who chooses the axons the turtles you know like to say who is watching The you know like to say who is watching The Watcher yeah and so in mathematics but Watcher yeah and so in mathematics but Watcher yeah and so in mathematics but you see mathematicians are so clever you see mathematicians are so clever you see mathematicians are so clever it's really kind of like a little kind it's really kind of like a little kind it's really kind of like a little kind of a game of mirrors that we often like of a game of mirrors that we often like of a game of mirrors that we often like to say and I used to say that to say and I used to say that to say and I used to say that um that mathematics is objective it's um that mathematics is objective it's um that mathematics is objective it's really one the only objective science really one the only objective science really one the only objective science but that's because we hide this this but that's because we hide this this but that's because we hide this this fact is based on axioms and the fact fact is based on axioms and the fact fact is based on axioms and the fact that that that that there is no there is no unique that there is no there is no unique that there is no there is no unique choice choice choice there are many choices there are many choices there are many choices and so euclidean geometry is actually a and so euclidean geometry is actually a and so euclidean geometry is actually a good illustration of this because good illustration of this because good illustration of this because Euclid had five axioms four of them were Euclid had five axioms four of them were Euclid had five axioms four of them were kind of obvious like the one I just kind of obvious like the one I just kind of obvious like the one I just mentioned and the fifth mentioned and the fifth mentioned and the fifth which came to be known famously as the which came to be known famously as the which came to be known famously as the fifth postulate fifth postulate fifth postulate was that if you have a line was that if you have a line was that if you have a line and you have a point outside of this and you have a point outside of this and you have a point outside of this line

line line there is a unique line passing through there is a unique line passing through there is a unique line passing through that point which is parallel to the that point which is parallel to the that point which is parallel to the first line meaning that doesn't first line meaning that doesn't first line meaning that doesn't intersect it intersect it intersect it and Euclid himself was uncomfortable and Euclid himself was uncomfortable and Euclid himself was uncomfortable about this because he felt that it was about this because he felt that it was about this because he felt that it was kind of a you know the York City takes kind of a you know the York City takes kind of a you know the York City takes for granted something that is not for granted something that is not for granted something that is not obvious obvious obvious and for me for many for many centuries and for me for many for many centuries and for me for many for many centuries after that mathematicians were trying to after that mathematicians were trying to after that mathematicians were trying to derive this action from other axioms derive this action from other axioms derive this action from other axioms which were more obvious in some sense which were more obvious in some sense which were more obvious in some sense and they failed and they failed and they failed and it was only almost 2000 years later and it was only almost 2000 years later and it was only almost 2000 years later that Magnus realized that you can't not that Magnus realized that you can't not that Magnus realized that you can't not only you cannot derive but you can only you cannot derive but you can only you cannot derive but you can actually replace it with its opposite actually replace it with its opposite actually replace it with its opposite and you'll still get a bonafide and you'll still get a bonafide and you'll still get a bonafide a consistent no it's not a consistent no it's not a consistent no it's not self-contradictory which is called self-contradictory which is called self-contradictory which is called non-euclidean geometry non-euclidean geometry non-euclidean geometry which of course sounds very complicated which of course sounds very complicated which of course sounds very complicated but it's not think of a sphere just the but it's not think of a sphere just the but it's not think of a sphere just the surface of a basketball or the surface surface of a basketball or the surface surface of a basketball or the surface of the Earth I know idealized of the Earth I know idealized of the Earth I know idealized the analogues so do you have points you the analogues so do you have points you the analogues so do you have points you have analogues of lines which have have analogues of lines which have have analogues of lines which have meridians right and every two meridians meridians right and every two meridians meridians right and every two meridians intersect intersect intersect unlike parallel lines on a flat space unlike parallel lines on a flat space unlike parallel lines on a flat space there is also so-called hyperbolic plane there is also so-called hyperbolic plane there is also so-called hyperbolic plane where where where no the infinitely many lines which do no the infinitely many lines which do no the infinitely many lines which do not intersect so every possibility can not intersect so every possibility can not intersect so every possibility can be realized there are different flavors be realized there are different flavors be realized there are different flavors this is a good illustration of what a this is a good illustration of what a this is a good illustration of what a formal system is formal system is formal system is you start with a set of axioms you start with a set of axioms you start with a set of axioms those statements you take for granted those statements you take for granted those statements you take for granted and this is where you have a choice

and this is where you have a choice and this is where you have a choice and by making different choices you and by making different choices you and by making different choices you actually create different mathematics actually create different mathematics actually create different mathematics after that there are rules of inference after that there are rules of inference after that there are rules of inference logical rules such as if a is true and a logical rules such as if a is true and a logical rules such as if a is true and a plus applies B then B is true most of them were actually introduced most of them were actually introduced already by Aristotle already by Aristotle already by Aristotle even before Euclid even before Euclid even before Euclid and then it runs as follows and then it runs as follows and then it runs as follows you have the axioms which are accepted you have the axioms which are accepted you have the axioms which are accepted as true statements then you have a way as true statements then you have a way as true statements then you have a way to produce new statements to produce new statements to produce new statements by using the rules of logical inference by using the rules of logical inference by using the rules of logical inference from the axioms every statement you from the axioms every statement you from the axioms every statement you obtain you call ethereum obtain you call ethereum obtain you call ethereum and you kind of add it to the collection and you kind of add it to the collection and you kind of add it to the collection of true statements of true statements of true statements and then the question is how far can you and then the question is how far can you and then the question is how far can you go how many statements can you prove go how many statements can you prove go how many statements can you prove this way this way this way of course you want it to be the system of course you want it to be the system of course you want it to be the system to be non-trivial in the sense that you to be non-trivial in the sense that you to be non-trivial in the sense that you don't prove everything don't prove everything don't prove everything because if you prove everything it would because if you prove everything it would because if you prove everything it would mean that it's self-contradictory that mean that it's self-contradictory that mean that it's self-contradictory that you'd prove a statement a and it's you'd prove a statement a and it's you'd prove a statement a and it's negation so that's kind of useless negation so that's kind of useless negation so that's kind of useless it has to be discriminating enough it has to be discriminating enough it has to be discriminating enough so that it doesn't doesn't prove so that it doesn't doesn't prove so that it doesn't doesn't prove contradictory statements so that there contradictory statements so that there contradictory statements so that there is already a question of that is already a question of that is already a question of that mathematical consistency it has to be mathematical consistency it has to be mathematical consistency it has to be consistent in the sense that consistent in the sense that consistent in the sense that it is not self-contradictory it is not self-contradictory it is not self-contradictory and then the idea that was basically and then the idea that was basically and then the idea that was basically prevalent in the world of mathematics by prevalent in the world of mathematics by prevalent in the world of mathematics by the beginning of the 20th century was the beginning of the 20th century was the beginning of the 20th century was that in principle all of mathematics that in principle all of mathematics that in principle all of mathematics could be derived this way we just have

could be derived this way we just have could be derived this way we just have to find the correct system of axioms to find the correct system of axioms to find the correct system of axioms and then everything you ever need and then everything you ever need and then everything you ever need would be would be would be um um um could be produced by this could be produced by this could be produced by this procedure which is really algorithmic procedure which is really algorithmic procedure which is really algorithmic procedure which which actually could be procedure which which actually could be procedure which which actually could be run on a computer run on a computer run on a computer now think about it what is special about now think about it what is special about now think about it what is special about this process this process this process in this process you are just in this process you are just in this process you are just manipulating manipulating manipulating symbols basically you're going from one symbols basically you're going from one symbols basically you're going from one statement to another without really statement to another without really statement to another without really understanding the meaning of it so it's understanding the meaning of it so it's understanding the meaning of it so it's an ideal playground for a computer an ideal playground for a computer an ideal playground for a computer program program program it's a purely syntactic process where it's a purely syntactic process where it's a purely syntactic process where there are some rules some rigid rules there are some rules some rigid rules there are some rules some rigid rules of passing from one statement to the of passing from one statement to the of passing from one statement to the next next next most mathematician mathematicians most mathematician mathematicians most mathematician mathematicians believed that this way you can produce believed that this way you can produce believed that this way you can produce all true statements and if this were all true statements and if this were all true statements and if this were true it would give a lot of credibility true it would give a lot of credibility true it would give a lot of credibility to the thesis that everything in life is to the thesis that everything in life is to the thesis that everything in life is computational computational computational or life is computation because then at or life is computation because then at or life is computation because then at least mathematics is computational least mathematics is computational least mathematics is computational because then it can be programmed because then it can be programmed because then it can be programmed and the computer after sufficient time and the computer after sufficient time and the computer after sufficient time depending on on its capacity would depending on on its capacity would depending on on its capacity would produce every true statement produce every true statement produce every true statement so guildo's first incompetence theorem so guildo's first incompetence theorem so guildo's first incompetence theorem says that that's not the case says that that's not the case says that that's not the case and it's not just says it but it proves and it's not just says it but it proves and it's not just says it but it proves it at you know the highest level of it at you know the highest level of it at you know the highest level of rigor that is available in math Max that rigor that is available in math Max that rigor that is available in math Max that is to say within another formal system is to say within another formal system is to say within another formal system that he was operating in that he was operating in that he was operating in so more precisely so more precisely so more precisely what he proved was that if you have a what he proved was that if you have a what he proved was that if you have a sufficiently sophisticated formal system

sufficiently sophisticated formal system sufficiently sophisticated formal system that is to say that you can talk about that is to say that you can talk about that is to say that you can talk about numbers whole numbers in it that you numbers whole numbers in it that you numbers whole numbers in it that you have whole numbers one two three four have whole numbers one two three four have whole numbers one two three four you you have you can you have formalized you you have you can you have formalized you you have you can you have formalized the procedure the operation of the procedure the operation of the procedure the operation of additional multiplication additional multiplication additional multiplication within the system is consistent that is to say if it's not is consistent that is to say if it's not complete completely useless complete completely useless complete completely useless then there will be a true statement in then there will be a true statement in then there will be a true statement in it which cannot be derived by this it which cannot be derived by this it which cannot be derived by this linear syntactic process of proving linear syntactic process of proving linear syntactic process of proving theorems from axioms theorems from axioms theorems from axioms it's really incredible so this was a it's really incredible so this was a it's really incredible so this was a revolution 1931 a revolution in logic revolution 1931 a revolution in logic revolution 1931 a revolution in logic Revolution mathematics we're still Revolution mathematics we're still Revolution mathematics we're still feeling the Tremors of feeling the Tremors of feeling the Tremors of of this discovery in a similar time of this discovery in a similar time of this discovery in a similar time the uh the computer is being born the the uh the computer is being born the the uh the computer is being born the actual engineering of the computational actual engineering of the computational actual engineering of the computational system is being born right which is uh system is being born right which is uh system is being born right which is uh electronic Turing was Turing was electronic Turing was Turing was electronic Turing was Turing was um Alan Turing who is considered as the um Alan Turing who is considered as the um Alan Turing who is considered as the father of modern Computing right so he father of modern Computing right so he father of modern Computing right so he actually did something very similar so actually did something very similar so actually did something very similar so he got this halting problem cannot be solved algorithmically that cannot be solved algorithmically that you cannot out of all computer programs you cannot out of all computer programs you cannot out of all computer programs roughly speaking you could not you could roughly speaking you could not you could roughly speaking you could not you could not you cannot have an algorithm of not you cannot have an algorithm of not you cannot have an algorithm of choosing out of all can be possible choosing out of all can be possible choosing out of all can be possible computer programs which ones are computer programs which ones are computer programs which ones are meaningful which ones will not which meaningful which ones will not which meaningful which ones will not which ones will hold very depressing results ones will hold very depressing results ones will hold very depressing results all across the table all across the table all across the table or on the contrary life affirming or on the contrary life affirming or on the contrary life affirming depends on your point of view because depends on your point of view because depends on your point of view because everything is full of paradoxes so that

everything is full of paradoxes so that everything is full of paradoxes so that means so you're right it's depressing if means so you're right it's depressing if means so you're right it's depressing if we are sold on a certain idea from the we are sold on a certain idea from the we are sold on a certain idea from the outset and then suddenly this doesn't outset and then suddenly this doesn't outset and then suddenly this doesn't pan out pan out pan out but okay so which my I retort what if but okay so which my I retort what if but okay so which my I retort what if what if he proved that actually what if he proved that actually what if he proved that actually you know everything can be proved so you know everything can be proved so you know everything can be proved so then what what is left to do if you're a then what what is left to do if you're a then what what is left to do if you're a mathematician so that would be mathematician so that would be mathematician so that would be depressing to me depressing to me depressing to me and here there is an opportunity to do and here there is an opportunity to do and here there is an opportunity to do something new to do to discover something new to do to discover something new to do to discover something new which may be a computer something new which may be a computer something new which may be a computer will not be able to again with a caveat will not be able to again with a caveat will not be able to again with a caveat according to our current understanding according to our current understanding according to our current understanding maybe some new technology some new ideas maybe some new technology some new ideas maybe some new technology some new ideas will be brought into the subject will be brought into the subject will be brought into the subject and the meaning of the word computation and the meaning of the word computation and the meaning of the word computation like now we think of condition a like now we think of condition a like now we think of condition a particular framework during machines or particular framework during machines or particular framework during machines or church thesis and stuff like that but church thesis and stuff like that but church thesis and stuff like that but what if in the future another genius what if in the future another genius what if in the future another genius like on Turing will come and propose like on Turing will come and propose like on Turing will come and propose something else the theory will evolve something else the theory will evolve something else the theory will evolve the way you know we went from Newton's the way you know we went from Newton's the way you know we went from Newton's gravity to Einstein's gravity maybe in gravity to Einstein's gravity maybe in gravity to Einstein's gravity maybe in the framework of that concept some other the framework of that concept some other the framework of that concept some other things will become possible things will become possible things will become possible you know so you know so you know so um it's not to me it's kind of like to me it's kind of like not so much about not so much about not so much about deciding once and for all how it is or deciding once and for all how it is or deciding once and for all how it is or how it should be but kind of like how it should be but kind of like how it should be but kind of like accepting it as an open-ended process I accepting it as an open-ended process I accepting it as an open-ended process I think that's much more valuable in some think that's much more valuable in some think that's much more valuable in some sense than deciding things one way or sense than deciding things one way or sense than deciding things one way or another you know I wonder another you know I wonder another you know I wonder I don't know if you think or know much

I don't know if you think or know much I don't know if you think or know much about cellular automata and uh the idea about cellular automata and uh the idea about cellular automata and uh the idea of emergence of emergence of emergence I I often return to Game of Life yeah I I often return to Game of Life yeah I I often return to Game of Life yeah and just look at the thing amazing right and just look at the thing amazing right and just look at the thing amazing right and wonder what kind of things they can and wonder what kind of things they can and wonder what kind of things they can do with such a small do with such a small do with such a small um you know tools yeah for simple rules um you know tools yeah for simple rules um you know tools yeah for simple rules a distributed system can create complex a distributed system can create complex a distributed system can create complex Behavior Behavior Behavior and it makes you wonder that maybe the and it makes you wonder that maybe the and it makes you wonder that maybe the thing we'll call computation thing we'll call computation thing we'll call computation is simple at the base layer but when you is simple at the base layer but when you is simple at the base layer but when you start looking at greater and greater start looking at greater and greater start looking at greater and greater layers of abstraction you zoom out with layers of abstraction you zoom out with layers of abstraction you zoom out with blurry vision maybe after a few drinks blurry vision maybe after a few drinks blurry vision maybe after a few drinks you start to see some uh something you start to see some uh something you start to see some uh something that's much much more complicated and that's much much more complicated and that's much much more complicated and interesting and beautiful than the interesting and beautiful than the interesting and beautiful than the original rules original rules original rules that are scientific intuition says that are scientific intuition says that are scientific intuition says cannot possibly produce complexity and cannot possibly produce complexity and cannot possibly produce complexity and Beauty I don't know I don't know if Beauty I don't know I don't know if Beauty I don't know I don't know if anyone has a good answer a good model of anyone has a good answer a good model of anyone has a good answer a good model of why why why stuff emerges stuff emerges stuff emerges why complexity emerges from a lot of why complexity emerges from a lot of why complexity emerges from a lot of simple things simple things simple things it's a why question I suppose another it's a why question I suppose another it's a why question I suppose another but every why question will eventually but every why question will eventually but every why question will eventually have a a rigorous answer not necessarily have a a rigorous answer not necessarily have a a rigorous answer not necessarily we could have an approximate answer we could have an approximate answer we could have an approximate answer which still eludes something like which still eludes something like which still eludes something like quantum mechanics 99 maybe we'll be able quantum mechanics 99 maybe we'll be able quantum mechanics 99 maybe we'll be able to describe it to describe it to describe it was 99 certainty or 99 accuracy yeah and was 99 certainty or 99 accuracy yeah and was 99 certainty or 99 accuracy yeah and then maybe you know then maybe you know then maybe you know in in 100 years or you know next year

in in 100 years or you know next year in in 100 years or you know next year somebody will come up with a different somebody will come up with a different somebody will come up with a different point of view which suddenly will change point of view which suddenly will change point of view which suddenly will change our perspective our perspective our perspective you know to this point I want to say you know to this point I want to say you know to this point I want to say also you know one thing that I find also you know one thing that I find also you know one thing that I find fascinating speaking of paradoxes and so fascinating speaking of paradoxes and so fascinating speaking of paradoxes and so on on on do you remember how everybody was do you remember how everybody was do you remember how everybody was freaking out about this blue dress freaking out about this blue dress freaking out about this blue dress and the blue was it blue or was it black and the blue was it blue or was it black and the blue was it blue or was it black yeah it was the yellow I think yellow or yeah it was the yellow I think yellow or yeah it was the yellow I think yellow or and white or black and blue it almost and white or black and blue it almost and white or black and blue it almost broke Twitter you know I remember that broke Twitter you know I remember that broke Twitter you know I remember that yeah that night yeah that night yeah that night so there are many examples like that so there are many examples like that so there are many examples like that where you can perceive things where you can perceive things where you can perceive things differently and there is no way of differently and there is no way of differently and there is no way of saying which is correct which is not for saying which is correct which is not for saying which is correct which is not for instance instance instance uh you got this the bus the Rubens bars uh you got this the bus the Rubens bars uh you got this the bus the Rubens bars you know where you have from one you know where you have from one you know where you have from one perspective it's of us from another perspective it's of us from another perspective it's of us from another perspective it's two faces perspective it's two faces perspective it's two faces then there is this Duck Rabbit picture then there is this Duck Rabbit picture then there is this Duck Rabbit picture where you can Google it if somebody where you can Google it if somebody where you can Google it if somebody doesn't know they can Google it and find doesn't know they can Google it and find doesn't know they can Google it and find it it's very easy actually Ludwig it it's very easy actually Ludwig it it's very easy actually Ludwig wittenstein devoted several Pages Duck wittenstein devoted several Pages Duck wittenstein devoted several Pages Duck Rabbit in his book Rabbit in his book Rabbit in his book and so on there are many others there and so on there are many others there and so on there are many others there are like the squares where you can are like the squares where you can are like the squares where you can square you can see the from different square you can see the from different square you can see the from different perspective this way that way and so on perspective this way that way and so on perspective this way that way and so on so so so when we talk about when we talk about when we talk about neural networks neural networks neural networks they're talking about training they're talking about training they're talking about training data and stuff and so that you have some data and stuff and so that you have some data and stuff and so that you have some pictures for example that you feed to pictures for example that you feed to pictures for example that you feed to your program your program your program and you try to find the most optimal and you try to find the most optimal and you try to find the most optimal neural network which would be able to neural network which would be able to neural network which would be able to decide which one is it so the dog or cat decide which one is it so the dog or cat decide which one is it so the dog or cat or whatever but sometimes it doesn't

or whatever but sometimes it doesn't or whatever but sometimes it doesn't have a definite answer have a definite answer have a definite answer so what do you do then so do actually so what do you do then so do actually so what do you do then so do actually it's a question I actually don't know it's a question I actually don't know it's a question I actually don't know has modern AI even come to appreciate has modern AI even come to appreciate has modern AI even come to appreciate this question that actually sometimes this question that actually sometimes this question that actually sometimes you can have a picture on which you you can have a picture on which you you can have a picture on which you cannot say what it is in it from one cannot say what it is in it from one cannot say what it is in it from one perspective it's a rabbit from an perspective it's a rabbit from an perspective it's a rabbit from an episode is a duck how are you supposed episode is a duck how are you supposed episode is a duck how are you supposed to train if you have a neural network to train if you have a neural network to train if you have a neural network which is supposed to discriminate which is supposed to discriminate which is supposed to discriminate between distinguish between ducks and between distinguish between ducks and between distinguish between ducks and rabbits how is it going to process this rabbits how is it going to process this rabbits how is it going to process this you see well so the the trivial trick it you see well so the the trivial trick it you see well so the the trivial trick it does is to say there's a this x does is to say there's a this x does is to say there's a this x probability there is a duck and this probability there is a duck and this probability there is a duck and this probability that it's a rabbit but probability that it's a rabbit but probability that it's a rabbit but that's a good approach but also I would that's a good approach but also I would that's a good approach but also I would say there's no like given percentages say there's no like given percentages say there's no like given percentages for instance actually at some point I for instance actually at some point I for instance actually at some point I was really curious about it and I looked was really curious about it and I looked was really curious about it and I looked and for some for each picture of this and for some for each picture of this and for some for each picture of this nature and there are a bunch of them you nature and there are a bunch of them you nature and there are a bunch of them you can easily find online can easily find online can easily find online my mind immediately interprets it in a my mind immediately interprets it in a my mind immediately interprets it in a particular way but because I know that particular way but because I know that particular way but because I know that other people have could see it other people have could see it other people have could see it differently I would then strain my mind differently I would then strain my mind differently I would then strain my mind and strain my eyes and stare at it and and strain my eyes and stare at it and and strain my eyes and stare at it and try to see it in a different way and try to see it in a different way and try to see it in a different way and sometimes I could see it right away and sometimes I could see it right away and sometimes I could see it right away and then I could go back and forth between then I could go back and forth between then I could go back and forth between the two and sometimes it could it took the two and sometimes it could it took the two and sometimes it could it took me a while for some pictures me a while for some pictures me a while for some pictures so in that sense even if this so in that sense even if this so in that sense even if this probabilities exist they are subjective probabilities exist they are subjective probabilities exist they are subjective some people immediately see it this way some people immediately see it this way some people immediately see it this way some people may see that way and I think some people may see that way and I think some people may see that way and I think that nobody knows not psychologists not

that nobody knows not psychologists not that nobody knows not psychologists not neuroscientists not philosophers what to neuroscientists not philosophers what to neuroscientists not philosophers what to make of it make of it make of it the best answer the best of course as a the best answer the best of course as a the best answer the best of course as a scientific mind I will I'm even though I scientific mind I will I'm even though I scientific mind I will I'm even though I say no don't look for interpretation say no don't look for interpretation say no don't look for interpretation leave some place for mysticism or leave some place for mysticism or leave some place for mysticism or mystery right I say that but of course I mystery right I say that but of course I mystery right I say that but of course I want a theory I want an explanation want a theory I want an explanation want a theory I want an explanation so the best explanation I find is from so the best explanation I find is from so the best explanation I find is from Niels Bohr's complementarity principle Niels Bohr's complementarity principle Niels Bohr's complementarity principle so it is like particle and wave so it is like particle and wave so it is like particle and wave that there are different ways to look at that there are different ways to look at that there are different ways to look at it it it and when you look at it in a particular and when you look at it in a particular and when you look at it in a particular way another side will be obscured think way another side will be obscured think way another side will be obscured think about it like the other side of the moon about it like the other side of the moon about it like the other side of the moon you know so like we are observing the you know so like we are observing the you know so like we are observing the Moon from one side and then we don't see Moon from one side and then we don't see Moon from one side and then we don't see the other side there is a complementary the other side there is a complementary the other side there is a complementary perspective where we see the other side perspective where we see the other side perspective where we see the other side but not the side we normally see but the but not the side we normally see but the but not the side we normally see but the Moon is the same Moon is the same Moon is the same still there it's our limitations of still there it's our limitations of still there it's our limitations of being able to grasp the whole being able to grasp the whole being able to grasp the whole that's complementarity and we know that that's complementarity and we know that that's complementarity and we know that from quantum mechanics that our physical from quantum mechanics that our physical from quantum mechanics that our physical reality is like that reality is like that reality is like that rather than being certain rather than rather than being certain rather than rather than being certain rather than being one way or another being one way or another being one way or another and we should just as a smaller side and we should just as a smaller side and we should just as a smaller side in terms of neural networks mentioned in terms of neural networks mentioned in terms of neural networks mentioned that that that at the end of the day there's humans is at the end of the day there's humans is at the end of the day there's humans is built on top of humans built on top of humans built on top of humans or with Chad GPT that is using or with Chad GPT that is using or with Chad GPT that is using reinforcement learning by human feedback reinforcement learning by human feedback reinforcement learning by human feedback we're actually using a set of humans we're actually using a set of humans we're actually using a set of humans to teach the networks yeah and that's to teach the networks yeah and that's to teach the networks yeah and that's the thing that people don't often talk the thing that people don't often talk the thing that people don't often talk about because about because about because or I I sometimes think about that

or I I sometimes think about that or I I sometimes think about that those humans all have a life story each those humans all have a life story each those humans all have a life story each human the annotated data that fed data human the annotated data that fed data human the annotated data that fed data to the network or did the rlhf yeah uh to the network or did the rlhf yeah uh to the network or did the rlhf yeah uh that they have a life story they grew up that they have a life story they grew up that they have a life story they grew up they have biases biases are some things they have biases biases are some things they have biases biases are some things that they like there's some things they that they like there's some things they that they like there's some things they don't like which can kind of appear don't like which can kind of appear don't like which can kind of appear under the Raider screen they may not be under the Raider screen they may not be under the Raider screen they may not be aware that they are exercising those aware that they are exercising those aware that they are exercising those biases that's the point what you brought biases that's the point what you brought biases that's the point what you brought up is a very important issue here not so up is a very important issue here not so up is a very important issue here not so it might issue but it's not a bug it's a it might issue but it's not a bug it's a it might issue but it's not a bug it's a it's a feature in my opinion that it's a feature in my opinion that it's a feature in my opinion that implicit in the discussion of the implicit in the discussion of the implicit in the discussion of the question question question is thinking computational and so on is is thinking computational and so on is is thinking computational and so on is the idea that our conscious awareness the idea that our conscious awareness the idea that our conscious awareness covers everything within our psyche and covers everything within our psyche and covers everything within our psyche and we we just know that that's not the case we we just know that that's not the case we we just know that that's not the case we have all of us have observed uh other we have all of us have observed uh other we have all of us have observed uh other people who have had sort of destructive people who have had sort of destructive people who have had sort of destructive Tendencies so obviously they did things Tendencies so obviously they did things Tendencies so obviously they did things destructive for themselves and many of destructive for themselves and many of destructive for themselves and many of us have observed ourselves to doing that us have observed ourselves to doing that us have observed ourselves to doing that as part of human nature right so and as part of human nature right so and as part of human nature right so and there is great research in analytic there is great research in analytic there is great research in analytic psychology and you know in the past psychology and you know in the past psychology and you know in the past hundred years uh strongly suggesting if hundred years uh strongly suggesting if hundred years uh strongly suggesting if not proving the existence of what Carl not proving the existence of what Carl not proving the existence of what Carl Jung called the unconscious personal Jung called the unconscious personal Jung called the unconscious personal unconscious and also Collective unconscious and also Collective unconscious and also Collective unconscious there's a kind of Circle of unconscious there's a kind of Circle of unconscious there's a kind of Circle of ideas which are under the radar screen ideas which are under the radar screen ideas which are under the radar screen which lead us to some strong emotions which lead us to some strong emotions which lead us to some strong emotions and Inspire us to act in certain ways and Inspire us to act in certain ways and Inspire us to act in certain ways even if we cannot really understand

even if we cannot really understand even if we cannot really understand so if we accept that then it the so if we accept that then it the so if we accept that then it the preposition that somehow everything can preposition that somehow everything can preposition that somehow everything can still be covered by our actions which still be covered by our actions which still be covered by our actions which are totally are totally are totally kind of neutral and totally like kind of neutral and totally like kind of neutral and totally like righteous and totally righteous and totally righteous and totally um conscious that it becomes really um conscious that it becomes really um conscious that it becomes really tenuous tenuous tenuous let me ask you some tricky questions oh let me ask you some tricky questions oh let me ask you some tricky questions oh in in terms of how big they are in in terms of how big they are in in terms of how big they are in terms of how you know they become in terms of how you know they become in terms of how you know they become difficult because of how much of difficult because of how much of difficult because of how much of romantic you are romantic you are romantic you are what do you uh is the most beautiful what do you uh is the most beautiful what do you uh is the most beautiful idea in mathematics idea in mathematics idea in mathematics another one we can ask is which is the another one we can ask is which is the another one we can ask is which is the most beautiful equation in mathematics most beautiful equation in mathematics most beautiful equation in mathematics hmm well I mean well I mean I may have just broken your brain I may have just broken your brain I may have just broken your brain because because what your brain is doing because because what your brain is doing because because what your brain is doing is walking down a long memory lane of is walking down a long memory lane of is walking down a long memory lane of beautiful experiences beautiful experiences beautiful experiences well you see in mathematics we have this well you see in mathematics we have this well you see in mathematics we have this idea that that we have an idea of a set idea that that we have an idea of a set idea that that we have an idea of a set right so it could be a collection of right so it could be a collection of right so it could be a collection of things for instance you know the set of things for instance you know the set of things for instance you know the set of tables the set of chairs and so on tables the set of chairs and so on tables the set of chairs and so on outside of microphones outside of microphones outside of microphones but it could be set of numbers but it could be set of numbers but it could be set of numbers could be set of ideas could be a set of could be set of ideas could be a set of could be set of ideas could be a set of formulas mathematical equations and then formulas mathematical equations and then formulas mathematical equations and then we have the notion of an ordered set we have the notion of an ordered set we have the notion of an ordered set order it like we said in which there is order it like we said in which there is order it like we said in which there is order which means that for every two order which means that for every two order which means that for every two members of the set we'll say which one

members of the set we'll say which one members of the set we'll say which one is better than the other or greater than is better than the other or greater than is better than the other or greater than the other for instance all numbers are the other for instance all numbers are the other for instance all numbers are ordered ordered ordered 5 is greater than 3 5 is less than 7 and 5 is greater than 3 5 is less than 7 and 5 is greater than 3 5 is less than 7 and so on so on so on but not all sets are ordered so the set but not all sets are ordered so the set but not all sets are ordered so the set of beautiful theorems is not what of beautiful theorems is not what of beautiful theorems is not what beautiful equations is not ordered so in other words there are many best so in other words there are many best equations equations equations and so and so and so Richard Feynman Richard Feynman Richard Feynman chose one which I think one of the best chose one which I think one of the best chose one which I think one of the best is that if you take e the base of is that if you take e the base of is that if you take e the base of natural logarithm to the power Pi I so natural logarithm to the power Pi I so natural logarithm to the power Pi I so you have Pi you have e in it the base of you have Pi you have e in it the base of you have Pi you have e in it the base of initial logarithm you have Pi I which is initial logarithm you have Pi I which is initial logarithm you have Pi I which is square root of negative one square root of negative one square root of negative one then the result is negative one then the result is negative one then the result is negative one so that's up there for sure in the so that's up there for sure in the so that's up there for sure in the pantheon of beautiful formulas you know pantheon of beautiful formulas you know pantheon of beautiful formulas you know that uh every I think pretty much every that uh every I think pretty much every that uh every I think pretty much every mathematician would agree mathematician would agree mathematician would agree um I don't know what my favorite one is um I don't know what my favorite one is um I don't know what my favorite one is I just lingering on that one uh Euler's I just lingering on that one uh Euler's I just lingering on that one uh Euler's identity what makes it beautiful just a identity what makes it beautiful just a identity what makes it beautiful just a few symbols together right few symbols together right few symbols together right I mean part of it is actually just I mean part of it is actually just I mean part of it is actually just trying to Define what is beautiful about trying to Define what is beautiful about trying to Define what is beautiful about mathematics mathematics mathematics that is that is that is uh Laden there in this particular uh Laden there in this particular uh Laden there in this particular equation that is somehow revealed when equation that is somehow revealed when equation that is somehow revealed when the human eye looks at it the human eye looks at it the human eye looks at it why is it beautiful do you think why is it beautiful do you think why is it beautiful do you think pi pi pi there is an element of surprise in it there is an element of surprise in it there is an element of surprise in it how is it possible we always think of Pi

how is it possible we always think of Pi how is it possible we always think of Pi as the ratio between the circumference as the ratio between the circumference as the ratio between the circumference of a circle and its diameter of a circle and its diameter of a circle and its diameter here we are taking some number to the here we are taking some number to the here we are taking some number to the power Pi not even Pi mind you but pi power Pi not even Pi mind you but pi power Pi not even Pi mind you but pi multiplied by square root of negative multiplied by square root of negative multiplied by square root of negative one surely this is something completely surely this is something completely incomprehensible and yet the result is incomprehensible and yet the result is incomprehensible and yet the result is negative one negative one negative one you see and if you take e to the power 2 you see and if you take e to the power 2 you see and if you take e to the power 2 pi I you get one actually one pi I you get one actually one pi I you get one actually one um so I would guess that that's but in um so I would guess that that's but in um so I would guess that that's but in other words the initial other words the initial other words the initial reaction is just that of a surprise I reaction is just that of a surprise I reaction is just that of a surprise I guess I guess for anyone guess I guess for anyone guess I guess for anyone who first comes across that these three who first comes across that these three who first comes across that these three folks four folks got together yeah it uh folks four folks got together yeah it uh folks four folks got together yeah it uh it reminds me of the it reminds me of the it reminds me of the the idea that uh Hitler's Stalin Trotsky the idea that uh Hitler's Stalin Trotsky the idea that uh Hitler's Stalin Trotsky and Freud were all in Vienna in some and Freud were all in Vienna in some and Freud were all in Vienna in some early at the beginning of the 20th and early at the beginning of the 20th and early at the beginning of the 20th and business Stein was was classmate of of business Stein was was classmate of of business Stein was was classmate of of Hitler you know this I did not know this Hitler you know this I did not know this Hitler you know this I did not know this though yeah so there it makes you you though yeah so there it makes you you though yeah so there it makes you you know you can imagine a situation where know you can imagine a situation where know you can imagine a situation where they're all sitting at a bar together they're all sitting at a bar together they're all sitting at a bar together at some point not knowing it but they at some point not knowing it but they at some point not knowing it but they somehow it all made sense in space time somehow it all made sense in space time somehow it all made sense in space time to be located there and that's what this to be located there and that's what this to be located there and that's what this feels like some kind of intersection feels like some kind of intersection feels like some kind of intersection intersection yes but I would say that intersection yes but I would say that intersection yes but I would say that after the initial shock you you look at after the initial shock you you look at after the initial shock you you look at the proof of this equation and it the proof of this equation and it the proof of this equation and it actually does make sense and actually it actually does make sense and actually it actually does make sense and actually it is is nothing but the statement that the

is is nothing but the statement that the is is nothing but the statement that the circumference of the circle is circumference of the circle is circumference of the circle is and in fact in this case it's the and in fact in this case it's the and in fact in this case it's the circumference of a semicircle is equal circumference of a semicircle is equal circumference of a semicircle is equal to 2 pi and that's where it comes from to 2 pi and that's where it comes from to 2 pi and that's where it comes from in the end the truth is simple in the in the end the truth is simple in the in the end the truth is simple in the end it was a simple not necessarily easy end it was a simple not necessarily easy end it was a simple not necessarily easy but simple but simple but simple so uh I mentioned to you Offline that I so uh I mentioned to you Offline that I so uh I mentioned to you Offline that I uh desperately in trying to figure out uh desperately in trying to figure out uh desperately in trying to figure out the optimal in an audit set questions to the optimal in an audit set questions to the optimal in an audit set questions to ask you uh texted Eric Weinstein asking ask you uh texted Eric Weinstein asking ask you uh texted Eric Weinstein asking for what questions he can ask you and he for what questions he can ask you and he for what questions he can ask you and he said that you are said that you are said that you are definitively one of the greatest living definitively one of the greatest living definitively one of the greatest living mathematicians so don't screw this up mathematicians so don't screw this up mathematicians so don't screw this up but you did give me a few questions but you did give me a few questions but you did give me a few questions um so he asks uh to ask you what are the um so he asks uh to ask you what are the um so he asks uh to ask you what are the most shockingly passionate this is in most shockingly passionate this is in most shockingly passionate this is in Eric's language what are the most Eric's language what are the most Eric's language what are the most shockingly passionate mathematical shockingly passionate mathematical shockingly passionate mathematical structures and he gave a list of four structures and he gave a list of four structures and he gave a list of four for him but he said he really wanted for him but he said he really wanted for him but he said he really wanted your list okay let me say that your list okay let me say that your list okay let me say that shockingly passionate mathematical shockingly passionate mathematical shockingly passionate mathematical structures and shocking structures and shocking structures and shocking okay is there something you can uh is okay is there something you can uh is okay is there something you can uh is there something that jumps to mind sure I'm here to shock yeah yeah so first of I'm here to shock yeah yeah so first of all Eric Weinstein is a is a very dear all Eric Weinstein is a is a very dear all Eric Weinstein is a is a very dear friend I have to say and I really really friend I have to say and I really really friend I have to say and I really really appreciate and love him uh he's just appreciate and love him uh he's just appreciate and love him uh he's just like my brother so you know it's it's like my brother so you know it's it's like my brother so you know it's it's interesting to um interesting to um interesting to um don't have a question posed by him maybe

don't have a question posed by him maybe don't have a question posed by him maybe if we can linger for a moment what do if we can linger for a moment what do if we can linger for a moment what do you think is special about Eric you think is special about Eric you think is special about Eric Weinstein for you know of his work and Weinstein for you know of his work and Weinstein for you know of his work and his mind his mind his mind the way he sort of straddles so many the way he sort of straddles so many the way he sort of straddles so many different disciplines it's like a different disciplines it's like a different disciplines it's like a renaissance man there are very few renaissance man there are very few renaissance man there are very few people like that at any given moment let people like that at any given moment let people like that at any given moment let alone the 21st century where information alone the 21st century where information alone the 21st century where information has become so has become so has become so you know huge that it's almost you know huge that it's almost you know huge that it's almost physically impossible to be able to keep physically impossible to be able to keep physically impossible to be able to keep track of things and yet he does and he track of things and yet he does and he track of things and yet he does and he has his own unique vision and unique has his own unique vision and unique has his own unique vision and unique point of view and he has integrity point of view and he has integrity point of view and he has integrity which is like almost impossible like I which is like almost impossible like I which is like almost impossible like I can't think of can't think of can't think of I met so many people who possess that I met so many people who possess that I met so many people who possess that those qualities almost no one those qualities almost no one those qualities almost no one and also the ability and also the ability and also the ability in some sense to um to embody the in some sense to um to embody the in some sense to um to embody the balance that you talked about balance that you talked about balance that you talked about of both the rigor of mathematics and the of both the rigor of mathematics and the of both the rigor of mathematics and the uh the imagination Humanity also I would uh the imagination Humanity also I would uh the imagination Humanity also I would say you know like we talk about say you know like we talk about say you know like we talk about imagination imagination imagination um as a kind of a Counterpoint to um as a kind of a Counterpoint to um as a kind of a Counterpoint to knowledge or logic but just basic knowledge or logic but just basic knowledge or logic but just basic Humanity you know just be basic just Humanity you know just be basic just Humanity you know just be basic just compassion just being able to compassion just being able to compassion just being able to because because because um um um every destructive I would say like every every destructive I would say like every every destructive I would say like every destructive destructive destructive um Society you know like be it Germany um Society you know like be it Germany um Society you know like be it Germany you know and Hitler or Soviet Union you know and Hitler or Soviet Union you know and Hitler or Soviet Union understand and so on understand and so on understand and so on was based on some kind of uh what was was based on some kind of uh what was was based on some kind of uh what was considered unassailable truth so a kind considered unassailable truth so a kind considered unassailable truth so a kind of conceptual system you know if you

of conceptual system you know if you of conceptual system you know if you think about it right there is a think about it right there is a think about it right there is a beautiful episode of this beautiful episode of this beautiful episode of this um series by um series by um series by um Jacob bronowsky you know um Jacob bronowsky you know um Jacob bronowsky you know um where he talks about he filmed it in um where he talks about he filmed it in um where he talks about he filmed it in Auschwitz Auschwitz Auschwitz talking about the certainty that what talking about the certainty that what talking about the certainty that what led the Nazis is a tool led the Nazis is a tool led the Nazis is a tool killing people killing people killing people wholesale was a certain it was almost a wholesale was a certain it was almost a wholesale was a certain it was almost a mathematical idea mathematical idea mathematical idea and they just basically bought into this and they just basically bought into this and they just basically bought into this idea and checked out their Humanity at idea and checked out their Humanity at idea and checked out their Humanity at the door the door the door so I would say that antidote to this so I would say that antidote to this so I would say that antidote to this type of thing is not necessarily even type of thing is not necessarily even type of thing is not necessarily even imagination in a kind of elevated sense imagination in a kind of elevated sense imagination in a kind of elevated sense that we have been discussing today that that we have been discussing today that that we have been discussing today that is exemplified by by our greatest is exemplified by by our greatest is exemplified by by our greatest scientists and philosophers but just basic Humanity and philosophers but just basic Humanity you know basic human basic common sense you know basic human basic common sense you know basic human basic common sense of just like knowing that it's just not of just like knowing that it's just not of just like knowing that it's just not right and I don't care what my see what right and I don't care what my see what right and I don't care what my see what my ideology tells me but I'm just not my ideology tells me but I'm just not my ideology tells me but I'm just not going to do it so going to do it so going to do it so that I think is kind of missing a little that I think is kind of missing a little that I think is kind of missing a little bit in today's society because people bit in today's society because people bit in today's society because people get a lot too caught up in in the get a lot too caught up in in the get a lot too caught up in in the ideology in in certain conceptual ideology in in certain conceptual ideology in in certain conceptual Frameworks so societies that lose that Frameworks so societies that lose that Frameworks so societies that lose that basic human compassion the basic basic human compassion the basic basic human compassion the basic Humanity around the trouble Humanity around the trouble Humanity around the trouble oh very much so but not only Society oh very much so but not only Society oh very much so but not only Society like a human being and Eric is one of like a human being and Eric is one of like a human being and Eric is one of the people I agree with you the people I agree with you the people I agree with you keeps that flame of you like I trust keeps that flame of you like I trust keeps that flame of you like I trust that he will not do something that he will not do something that he will not do something that's not human that's not right

that's not human that's not right that's not human that's not right I just feel that you know like there's I just feel that you know like there's I just feel that you know like there's some some people you just kind of feel some some people you just kind of feel some some people you just kind of feel that they won't cross that line yeah and that they won't cross that line yeah and that they won't cross that line yeah and that's a huge thing you know today that's a huge thing you know today that's a huge thing you know today because I have to say looking back because I have to say looking back because I have to say looking back definitely definitely definitely I have not heard people personally but I have not heard people personally but I have not heard people personally but like I could be mean for instance I like I could be mean for instance I like I could be mean for instance I could be harsh could be harsh could be harsh and now I see it as a sign of weakness and now I see it as a sign of weakness and now I see it as a sign of weakness as a sign of insecurity as a sign of insecurity as a sign of insecurity you know I saw I saw your interview with you know I saw I saw your interview with you know I saw I saw your interview with Rick Roswell the other day Rick Roswell the other day Rick Roswell the other day it's beautiful I was really moved by it it's beautiful I was really moved by it it's beautiful I was really moved by it but you know that at some point I was but you know that at some point I was but you know that at some point I was like like like I I looked at him at this sort of like I I looked at him at this sort of like I I looked at him at this sort of like Dr Evil kind of ashamed of it now but like you kind of ashamed of it now but like you know I'm kind of coming clean know I'm kind of coming clean know I'm kind of coming clean and I would you know and I would you know and I would you know because well why because I needed an because well why because I needed an because well why because I needed an adverse adversary in my mind because I adverse adversary in my mind because I adverse adversary in my mind because I projected onto him kind of the fears projected onto him kind of the fears projected onto him kind of the fears that I had that we will be the AI Will that I had that we will be the AI Will that I had that we will be the AI Will Conquer us and so on Conquer us and so on Conquer us and so on and this was rooted in my and this was rooted in my and this was rooted in my kind of Awakening moment in sense so kind of Awakening moment in sense so kind of Awakening moment in sense so kind of a moment where I suddenly kind of a moment where I suddenly kind of a moment where I suddenly started to see the other side started to see the other side started to see the other side so but I wasn't sure yet so but I wasn't sure yet so but I wasn't sure yet you see you have to feel it so I had to you see you have to feel it so I had to you see you have to feel it so I had to have a fight about it yeah you had to have a fight about it yeah you had to have a fight about it yeah you had to actually have the project I had to that actually have the project I had to that actually have the project I had to that so it was not I believe that it was not so it was not I believe that it was not so it was not I believe that it was not in me already so I had to throw it onto in me already so I had to throw it onto in me already so I had to throw it onto somebody yeah somebody yeah somebody yeah and that's not balanced yet so balance and that's not balanced yet so balance and that's not balanced yet so balance is when you recognize that it's you is when you recognize that it's you is when you recognize that it's you actually so and I had this moment actually so and I had this moment actually so and I had this moment actually it was so amazing like I would actually it was so amazing like I would actually it was so amazing like I would give this mean I would talk about Ai and

give this mean I would talk about Ai and give this mean I would talk about Ai and the dangers and he would always be my the dangers and he would always be my the dangers and he would always be my like um foil you know I would put a like um foil you know I would put a like um foil you know I would put a Sinister photograph of you okay on the Sinister photograph of you okay on the Sinister photograph of you okay on the slide and it's like look at this guy he slide and it's like look at this guy he slide and it's like look at this guy he wants to put Nano balls into your brain wants to put Nano balls into your brain wants to put Nano balls into your brain and he's also like high-end High a top and he's also like high-end High a top and he's also like high-end High a top executive at Google and so on like so I executive at Google and so on like so I executive at Google and so on like so I would create this whole narrative would create this whole narrative would create this whole narrative and then something happened and then something happened and then something happened uh where I was giving a lecture this is uh where I was giving a lecture this is uh where I was giving a lecture this is 2015 at the in in Aspen Aspen ideas 2015 at the in in Aspen Aspen ideas 2015 at the in in Aspen Aspen ideas Festival which is a wonderful Festival Festival which is a wonderful Festival Festival which is a wonderful Festival so keynote speech actually and I and I so keynote speech actually and I and I so keynote speech actually and I and I was doing my my usual stick and then was doing my my usual stick and then was doing my my usual stick and then suddenly I said suddenly I said suddenly I said I came up to that uh under the big I came up to that uh under the big I came up to that uh under the big screen and there was a picture of him screen and there was a picture of him screen and there was a picture of him there and I came up to the screen and I there and I came up to the screen and I there and I came up to the screen and I kind of touched it with my hand and I kind of touched it with my hand and I kind of touched it with my hand and I said but said but said but I don't want to pick on Mr casual I don't want to pick on Mr casual I don't want to pick on Mr casual because he's me I had this Revelation because he's me I had this Revelation because he's me I had this Revelation that I'm actually fighting with myself that I'm actually fighting with myself that I'm actually fighting with myself with my own fears with my own fears with my own fears and and then I learned about and and then I learned about and and then I learned about his his his um his um his father that his father um his um his father that his father um his um his father that his father died when he was young died when he was young died when he was young and that he's in fact he's very and that he's in fact he's very and that he's in fact he's very um discredited he's very um sincere an um discredited he's very um sincere an um discredited he's very um sincere an upfront about it self-disclosure I think upfront about it self-disclosure I think upfront about it self-disclosure I think it's very Essential by the way in all it's very Essential by the way in all it's very Essential by the way in all this discussion like what really this discussion like what really this discussion like what really motivates you motivates you motivates you he said that he said it publicly many he said that he said it publicly many he said that he said it publicly many times even as early as 2015 I could find times even as early as 2015 I could find times even as early as 2015 I could find this information this information this information that he wanted to reunite with his

that he wanted to reunite with his that he wanted to reunite with his father in the cloud and suddenly I saw father in the cloud and suddenly I saw father in the cloud and suddenly I saw him not as a gray carcature him not as a gray carcature him not as a gray carcature that exemplified all my fears that exemplified all my fears that exemplified all my fears but as a human being but as a human being but as a human being who a child longing for his father who a child longing for his father who a child longing for his father grieving for his father grieving for his father grieving for his father so suddenly it became a story a love so suddenly it became a story a love so suddenly it became a story a love story story story and you know and you know and you know so that is so in other words I've seen so that is so in other words I've seen so that is so in other words I've seen it in myself it in myself it in myself this capacity to capacity to project my own fears and then fight with project my own fears and then fight with project my own fears and then fight with other people over something that other people over something that other people over something that actually was my own actually was my own actually was my own and as soon as I got to this point of and as soon as I got to this point of and as soon as I got to this point of seeing him and then my next lecture seeing him and then my next lecture seeing him and then my next lecture actually I talked about it about him in actually I talked about it about him in actually I talked about it about him in this way this way this way and I and I said look you know it's a and I and I said look you know it's a and I and I said look you know it's a love story and he is actually love story and he is actually love story and he is actually um um um and it's not how I would want to reunite and it's not how I would want to reunite and it's not how I would want to reunite with my father uh with my father uh with my father uh but like you said you know that if I am but like you said you know that if I am but like you said you know that if I am consistent I have to allow the consistent I have to allow the consistent I have to allow the possibility that different people possibility that different people possibility that different people um um um perceive things differently and so for perceive things differently and so for perceive things differently and so for him him him that's his imagination so you know how that's his imagination so you know how that's his imagination so you know how who is this well Voltaire I think is who is this well Voltaire I think is who is this well Voltaire I think is ascribed to Voltaire it's like I ascribed to Voltaire it's like I ascribed to Voltaire it's like I disagree with you but I will fight to disagree with you but I will fight to disagree with you but I will fight to death for you to have the right to say death for you to have the right to say death for you to have the right to say it so now that I I feel like my position it so now that I I feel like my position it so now that I I feel like my position is more like I disagree with him that is more like I disagree with him that is more like I disagree with him that this is the way to

this is the way to this is the way to to approach death and to approach the to approach death and to approach the to approach death and to approach the death of loved our loved ones and how we death of loved our loved ones and how we death of loved our loved ones and how we miss them and how we miss them and how we miss them and how we you know that sense of loneliness and you know that sense of loneliness and you know that sense of loneliness and inability to interact directly inability to interact directly inability to interact directly that that that that's not something that is nice with that's not something that is nice with that's not something that is nice with me me me but I think it's also but I think it's also but I think it's also it can also be called imagination from it can also be called imagination from it can also be called imagination from his perspective and look motivated by his perspective and look motivated by his perspective and look motivated by that that that how much he has brought how many how much he has brought how many how much he has brought how many interesting inventions like his musical interesting inventions like his musical interesting inventions like his musical for instance naturally because his for instance naturally because his for instance naturally because his father was a composer a music composer father was a composer a music composer father was a composer a music composer and a conductor and a conductor and a conductor so in other words from in the bigger so in other words from in the bigger so in other words from in the bigger scheme of things scheme of things scheme of things even if I think he's misguided still I can't deny that it's a certain still I can't deny that it's a certain leap of faith from his perspective to leap of faith from his perspective to leap of faith from his perspective to try to say that this is the way we can try to say that this is the way we can try to say that this is the way we can all connect to our loved ones and all connect to our loved ones and all connect to our loved ones and because it is sincere and I see it now because it is sincere and I see it now because it is sincere and I see it now sincere and in fact in your interview sincere and in fact in your interview sincere and in fact in your interview you really teased it out of human it was you really teased it out of human it was you really teased it out of human it was I was really moved by it I have to say I was really moved by it I have to say I was really moved by it I have to say it's like he has mailed a little bit too it's like he has mailed a little bit too it's like he has mailed a little bit too I said you know it was really really I said you know it was really really I said you know it was really really sweet when he talked about his father sweet when he talked about his father sweet when he talked about his father and I can relate you know my father died and I can relate you know my father died and I can relate you know my father died four years ago and I can relate what a four years ago and I can relate what a four years ago and I can relate what a heartbreak I was much older than Rey was heartbreak I was much older than Rey was heartbreak I was much older than Rey was when his father died but I can relate to when his father died but I can relate to when his father died but I can relate to this um to this longing and that grief this um to this longing and that grief this um to this longing and that grief you know and when he is somebody sincere you know and when he is somebody sincere you know and when he is somebody sincere and he puts his

and he puts his and he puts his opens his cards and you know opens his cards and you know opens his cards and you know and say this is why that's what I want and say this is why that's what I want and say this is why that's what I want to do it because I want to recreate my to do it because I want to recreate my to do it because I want to recreate my father and I want to be able to talk to father and I want to be able to talk to father and I want to be able to talk to him this way him this way him this way then we have a series and then we then we have a series and then we then we have a series and then we understand you know the opposite of it understand you know the opposite of it understand you know the opposite of it would be not risk closing would be not risk closing would be not risk closing and just and just and just um pretending that this is how it's pretending that this is how it's supposed to be in a scientific term so supposed to be in a scientific term so supposed to be in a scientific term so it was replacing your real emotion but it was replacing your real emotion but it was replacing your real emotion but come from the Heart by some kind of a come from the Heart by some kind of a come from the Heart by some kind of a theory which comes from the mind and theory which comes from the mind and theory which comes from the mind and this is where we can go astray because this is where we can go astray because this is where we can go astray because then we get become captives of then we get become captives of then we get become captives of Frameworks and conceptual systems which Frameworks and conceptual systems which Frameworks and conceptual systems which may not be beneficial to our society in may not be beneficial to our society in may not be beneficial to our society in tough times we need the people that have tough times we need the people that have tough times we need the people that have not lost their way in the ideologies we not lost their way in the ideologies we not lost their way in the ideologies we need the people who are still in touch need the people who are still in touch need the people who are still in touch with their heart and you you mentioned with their heart and you you mentioned with their heart and you you mentioned this with Eric is certainly true I this with Eric is certainly true I this with Eric is certainly true I disagree with them on a lot of stuff but disagree with them on a lot of stuff but disagree with them on a lot of stuff but I feel like when the world is burning I feel like when the world is burning I feel like when the world is burning down Eric is one of the people that's down Eric is one of the people that's down Eric is one of the people that's you can still count on to have a heart you can still count on to have a heart you can still count on to have a heart I've talked a lot over the past year I've talked a lot over the past year I've talked a lot over the past year about the war in Ukraine and the about the war in Ukraine and the about the war in Ukraine and the possibility of nuclear war and it feels possibility of nuclear war and it feels possibility of nuclear war and it feels like he's one of the people I would call like he's one of the people I would call like he's one of the people I would call First First First um um um if uh if God forbid something like a if uh if God forbid something like a if uh if God forbid something like a nuclear war will begin because you you nuclear war will begin because you you nuclear war will begin because you you look for people with a heart no matter look for people with a heart no matter look for people with a heart no matter their ideas that's right it takes their ideas that's right it takes their ideas that's right it takes courage and it takes a certain courage and it takes a certain courage and it takes a certain self-awareness I would say

self-awareness I would say self-awareness I would say and which brings I mean you know I think and which brings I mean you know I think and which brings I mean you know I think the crucial is that that which was the crucial is that that which was the crucial is that that which was inscribed you know on the Temple of a inscribed you know on the Temple of a inscribed you know on the Temple of a Poland Delphia there was a statement Poland Delphia there was a statement Poland Delphia there was a statement know thyself know yourself you know the know thyself know yourself you know the know thyself know yourself you know the who am I ultimately it goes down to this who am I ultimately it goes down to this who am I ultimately it goes down to this and all these debates and the point is and all these debates and the point is and all these debates and the point is that it's like I used to be like I said that it's like I used to be like I said that it's like I used to be like I said you know pessimistic at some point and I you know pessimistic at some point and I you know pessimistic at some point and I was scared even of where development of was scared even of where development of was scared even of where development of AI was going this is about 2014 2015. AI was going this is about 2014 2015. AI was going this is about 2014 2015. and now I'm much more and now I'm much more and now I'm much more so for instance after I saw Ray so for instance after I saw Ray so for instance after I saw Ray courtswell as a human being after I courtswell as a human being after I courtswell as a human being after I could relate to him could relate to him could relate to him and sympathize and sympathize and sympathize with him suddenly with him suddenly with him suddenly I I stopped seeing him in the news like I I stopped seeing him in the news like I I stopped seeing him in the news like before that I would always see him in before that I would always see him in before that I would always see him in the news saying we're going to put the news saying we're going to put the news saying we're going to put Nanobots in your brain by the year 2030 Nanobots in your brain by the year 2030 Nanobots in your brain by the year 2030 whatever you know and then we upload you whatever you know and then we upload you whatever you know and then we upload you to the 20 by the 21st and I will be like to the 20 by the 21st and I will be like to the 20 by the 21st and I will be like no you know the story was terrible no you know the story was terrible no you know the story was terrible suddenly I didn't see him anymore suddenly I didn't see him anymore suddenly I didn't see him anymore I had to you know so now it makes me I had to you know so now it makes me I had to you know so now it makes me question who was creating the trouble question who was creating the trouble question who was creating the trouble what was all with it was it him who's what was all with it was it him who's what was all with it was it him who's creating stirring the trouble or was it creating stirring the trouble or was it creating stirring the trouble or was it my mind you see and so as I become as I my mind you see and so as I become as I my mind you see and so as I become as I became self-aware became self-aware became self-aware suddenly other possibilities opened and suddenly other possibilities opened and suddenly other possibilities opened and suddenly that conflict which by the way suddenly that conflict which by the way suddenly that conflict which by the way if I kept giving this if I kept giving this if I kept giving this nasty you know talks about him one one nasty you know talks about him one one nasty you know talks about him one one day I suppose we'll have a debate and so day I suppose we'll have a debate and so day I suppose we'll have a debate and so you have this you have this you have this um one person says this and then yeah um one person says this and then yeah um one person says this and then yeah and what I learned is that it never it's and what I learned is that it never it's and what I learned is that it never it's a never-ending con this conflict just

a never-ending con this conflict just a never-ending con this conflict just does not end does not end does not end but there is an alternative there is a but there is an alternative there is a but there is an alternative there is a better way better way better way which is to realize that it is you which is to realize that it is you which is to realize that it is you arguing with yourself arguing with yourself arguing with yourself now if you want to continue arguing with now if you want to continue arguing with now if you want to continue arguing with yourself yourself yourself continue as long as you need continue as long as you need continue as long as you need just be careful not to destroy too many just be careful not to destroy too many just be careful not to destroy too many things you know in the process but there things you know in the process but there things you know in the process but there is an option of actually dropping it of is an option of actually dropping it of is an option of actually dropping it of actually dropping it this is so I was so actually dropping it this is so I was so actually dropping it this is so I was so surprised by this surprised by this surprised by this yeah it's discovering in yourself the yeah it's discovering in yourself the yeah it's discovering in yourself the capacity the human capacity for capacity the human capacity for capacity the human capacity for compassion and you understand that compassion and you understand that compassion and you understand that he has a perspective he is operating in he has a perspective he is operating in he has a perspective he is operating in the space of imagination a human being the space of imagination a human being the space of imagination a human being like you and we're all in this kind of like you and we're all in this kind of like you and we're all in this kind of together together together ultimately and also it's like with ultimately and also it's like with ultimately and also it's like with realizing how much realizing how much realizing how much I have screwed up you know comes with I have screwed up you know comes with I have screwed up you know comes with humility also yeah so like I find it humility also yeah so like I find it humility also yeah so like I find it extremely hard now to like really Lush extremely hard now to like really Lush extremely hard now to like really Lush out at somebody and to say like you're out at somebody and to say like you're out at somebody and to say like you're horrible whatever because immediately horrible whatever because immediately horrible whatever because immediately question is question is question is who am I to criticize you know so is who am I to criticize you know so is who am I to criticize you know so is there another way to have a dialogue is there another way to have a dialogue is there another way to have a dialogue is there a way to you know speaking you there a way to you know speaking you there a way to you know speaking you know since we talked about know since we talked about know since we talked about um the innocence of a child and how much um the innocence of a child and how much um the innocence of a child and how much it drives a discovery in science and so it drives a discovery in science and so it drives a discovery in science and so on you know I remember it was I think I on you know I remember it was I think I on you know I remember it was I think I heard the Ashanti who gave this nice heard the Ashanti who gave this nice heard the Ashanti who gave this nice example he's like when you're a kid you example he's like when you're a kid you example he's like when you're a kid you know you go and you you play with your know you go and you you play with your know you go and you you play with your friends and then you fight with another friends and then you fight with another friends and then you fight with another kid and he was like I hate you I don't kid and he was like I hate you I don't kid and he was like I hate you I don't want to see you again I just go home want to see you again I just go home want to see you again I just go home like after half an hour okay what are like after half an hour okay what are like after half an hour okay what are you gonna do you want to play so you you gonna do you want to play so you you gonna do you want to play so you come out it's like hey you want to play

come out it's like hey you want to play come out it's like hey you want to play you don't talk about what happened you you don't talk about what happened you you don't talk about what happened you don't rehash this you know don't rehash this you know don't rehash this you know let's keep going and sometimes I think let's keep going and sometimes I think let's keep going and sometimes I think we are on the verge maybe of learning we are on the verge maybe of learning we are on the verge maybe of learning that that that because I think that if we are can if we because I think that if we are can if we because I think that if we are can if we continue to push continue to push continue to push each of us our set of ideas and like each of us our set of ideas and like each of us our set of ideas and like ideologies and like ideologies and like ideologies and like you know what matters to us and so on you know what matters to us and so on you know what matters to us and so on like yeah no no what matters to you but like yeah no no what matters to you but like yeah no no what matters to you but like there are other ways to approach like there are other ways to approach like there are other ways to approach other people there are other ways you other people there are other ways you other people there are other ways you can find point of contact can find point of contact can find point of contact speaking of which mathematics speaking of which mathematics speaking of which mathematics mathematical formulas mathematical formulas mathematical formulas are Universal represent Universal are Universal represent Universal are Universal represent Universal knowledge two plus two is four whether knowledge two plus two is four whether knowledge two plus two is four whether you vote for this guy or that guy in the you vote for this guy or that guy in the you vote for this guy or that guy in the election you know how about that as a election you know how about that as a election you know how about that as a point of of contact of commonality you point of of contact of commonality you point of of contact of commonality you know and nobody can patent those know and nobody can patent those know and nobody can patent those formulas did you know that there is a formulas did you know that there is a formulas did you know that there is a Supreme Court decision that mathematical Supreme Court decision that mathematical Supreme Court decision that mathematical formulas cannot be patented like formulas cannot be patented like formulas cannot be patented like Einstein could not patent equal E equals Einstein could not patent equal E equals Einstein could not patent equal E equals m c squared m c squared m c squared it doesn't belong to him because if the it doesn't belong to him because if the it doesn't belong to him because if the formal is correct formal is correct formal is correct then it belongs to everyone so what do you think of that all too so what do you think of that all too tricky question and if you want I can tricky question and if you want I can tricky question and if you want I can deeply bias your answer by giving the deeply bias your answer by giving the deeply bias your answer by giving the list of four that Eric provided oh no list of four that Eric provided oh no list of four that Eric provided oh no let me give my mind I cannot see by the let me give my mind I cannot see by the let me give my mind I cannot see by the way with you yes so but I can guess some way with you yes so but I can guess some way with you yes so but I can guess some of them of them of them so I'm going to try to do something so I'm going to try to do something so I'm going to try to do something different from him so I already different from him so I already different from him so I already mentioned one which is that you have one mentioned one which is that you have one mentioned one which is that you have one dimensional

dimensional dimensional um in the medical system which is real um in the medical system which is real um in the medical system which is real numbers you have two-dimensional which numbers you have two-dimensional which numbers you have two-dimensional which is complex numbers you have four is complex numbers you have four is complex numbers you have four dimensional and it's kind of it's dimensional and it's kind of it's dimensional and it's kind of it's probably connected to what he wrote probably connected to what he wrote probably connected to what he wrote Because has to do with some homotopic Because has to do with some homotopic Because has to do with some homotopic groups of spheres and stuff like that groups of spheres and stuff like that groups of spheres and stuff like that then of course one I love okay one plus then of course one I love okay one plus then of course one I love okay one plus two plus three plus four plus five plus two plus three plus four plus five plus two plus three plus four plus five plus six and so on six and so on six and so on does it make any sense the sum I mean does it make any sense the sum I mean does it make any sense the sum I mean you probably heard about this one it you probably heard about this one it you probably heard about this one it became a very popular at some point one became a very popular at some point one became a very popular at some point one plus two plus three I did I did a video plus two plus three I did I did a video plus two plus three I did I did a video of a number file the the YouTube channel of a number file the the YouTube channel of a number file the the YouTube channel about it maybe 10 years ago so one plus about it maybe 10 years ago so one plus about it maybe 10 years ago so one plus two plus three plus four plus five two plus three plus four plus five two plus three plus four plus five ostensibly ostensibly ostensibly uh diverges goes to Infinity because you uh diverges goes to Infinity because you uh diverges goes to Infinity because you got a bigger and bigger number and yet got a bigger and bigger number and yet got a bigger and bigger number and yet there is a way to make sense of it there is a way to make sense of it there is a way to make sense of it in which it it comes up to minus one in which it it comes up to minus one in which it it comes up to minus one over twelve over twelve over twelve how fascinating first of all the answer how fascinating first of all the answer how fascinating first of all the answer is not even a positive number and it's is not even a positive number and it's is not even a positive number and it's not an integer it's not a whole number not an integer it's not a whole number not an integer it's not a whole number it's minus one over twelve so sometimes it's minus one over twelve so sometimes it's minus one over twelve so sometimes people ask me what is your favorite people ask me what is your favorite people ask me what is your favorite number number number and it's a kind of a joke I say minus and it's a kind of a joke I say minus and it's a kind of a joke I say minus one over twelve one over twelve one over twelve it's actually 42.

so your favorite number is not an so your favorite number is not an ordered set ordered set ordered set uh right so what else what else uh so uh right so what else what else uh so uh right so what else what else uh so placements program of course I have to placements program of course I have to placements program of course I have to mention that and we'll we'll explore mention that and we'll we'll explore mention that and we'll we'll explore that in depth do you want do you want to that in depth do you want do you want to that in depth do you want do you want to know what Eric said sure sphere aversion know what Eric said sure sphere aversion know what Eric said sure sphere aversion boys surface hop vibration vibration boys surface hop vibration vibration boys surface hop vibration vibration okay and okay and okay and Pi 1 of SO3 okay oh yes so that's the Pi 1 of SO3 okay oh yes so that's the Pi 1 of SO3 okay oh yes so that's the that's the famous cup trick you know that's the famous cup trick you know that's the famous cup trick you know okay look so this is how it works okay look so this is how it works okay look so this is how it works no tricks no tricks no matter what no tricks no tricks no matter what no tricks no tricks no matter what honest it is magical okay honest it is magical okay honest it is magical okay not because I'm tricking you so you not because I'm tricking you so you not because I'm tricking you so you start with a a bottle like this or a cup start with a a bottle like this or a cup start with a a bottle like this or a cup and you start twisting it at the same and you start twisting it at the same and you start twisting it at the same time you twist your your arm then you time you twist your your arm then you time you twist your your arm then you come so this is actually going to come so this is actually going to come so this is actually going to um rotate it 360 Degrees the full turn um rotate it 360 Degrees the full turn um rotate it 360 Degrees the full turn then you say okay I won't be able to do then you say okay I won't be able to do then you say okay I won't be able to do another turn because then my arm would another turn because then my arm would another turn because then my arm would really get twisted I'll have to go see a really get twisted I'll have to go see a really get twisted I'll have to go see a doctor yet if I do it second time it doctor yet if I do it second time it doctor yet if I do it second time it untwists untwists untwists this is the pi one of SO3 Eric was this is the pi one of SO3 Eric was this is the pi one of SO3 Eric was talking about it yes so there is talking about it yes so there is talking about it yes so there is something where something where something where the first motion is not trivial but if the first motion is not trivial but if the first motion is not trivial but if you double down on it you come back to you double down on it you come back to you double down on it you come back to the initial position the initial position the initial position it's a very closely connected to the it's a very closely connected to the it's a very closely connected to the fact that we have Elementary particles fact that we have Elementary particles fact that we have Elementary particles of two types bosons and fermions of two types bosons and fermions of two types bosons and fermions so bosons are for example photons or so bosons are for example photons or so bosons are for example photons or carriers of other forces or the Higgs carriers of other forces or the Higgs carriers of other forces or the Higgs boson it is called a boson for a reason boson it is called a boson for a reason boson it is called a boson for a reason because it is a Boson uh in in honor of

because it is a Boson uh in in honor of because it is a Boson uh in in honor of Indian mathematician Bose b-o-s-e and Indian mathematician Bose b-o-s-e and Indian mathematician Bose b-o-s-e and Einstein so this particles obey what's Einstein so this particles obey what's Einstein so this particles obey what's called both Einstein statistics but then called both Einstein statistics but then called both Einstein statistics but then there are other particles called there are other particles called there are other particles called fermions fermions fermions in honor of Enrico Fermi Italian porn in honor of Enrico Fermi Italian porn in honor of Enrico Fermi Italian porn mathematician who worked in in the U.S mathematician who worked in in the U.S mathematician who worked in in the U.S and and they follow what's called Iraq and and they follow what's called Iraq and and they follow what's called Iraq Fermi statistics and those are electrons Fermi statistics and those are electrons Fermi statistics and those are electrons and constituents of matter electrons and constituents of matter electrons and constituents of matter electrons protons neutrons and so on and they have protons neutrons and so on and they have protons neutrons and so on and they have a certain duplicity if you will and that a certain duplicity if you will and that a certain duplicity if you will and that duplicity is rooted mathematically in duplicity is rooted mathematically in duplicity is rooted mathematically in this in this experiment this little this in this experiment this little this in this experiment this little experiment that they have just done experiment that they have just done experiment that they have just done so I can I imagine speaking of so I can I imagine speaking of so I can I imagine speaking of imagination okay yeah so I'm just kind imagination okay yeah so I'm just kind imagination okay yeah so I'm just kind of briefing on this imagine a world in of briefing on this imagine a world in of briefing on this imagine a world in which this will not be shocking or like which this will not be shocking or like which this will not be shocking or like in this case it's not even shocking in this case it's not even shocking in this case it's not even shocking because I haven't really explained the because I haven't really explained the because I haven't really explained the details because I can't do it in two details because I can't do it in two details because I can't do it in two minutes I I indicated minutes I I indicated minutes I I indicated what this is all about and so on what this is all about and so on what this is all about and so on but imagine a world in which this is not but imagine a world in which this is not but imagine a world in which this is not foreign to most people that most people foreign to most people that most people foreign to most people that most people have seen it before or they're not have seen it before or they're not have seen it before or they're not afraid to approach this type of afraid to approach this type of afraid to approach this type of questions because you know we talked a questions because you know we talked a questions because you know we talked a little bit about Mass education but I little bit about Mass education but I little bit about Mass education but I really believe that a lot of people in really believe that a lot of people in really believe that a lot of people in our society and it is not not only in our society and it is not not only in our society and it is not not only in the United States but throughout the the United States but throughout the the United States but throughout the world a lot of people have been world a lot of people have been world a lot of people have been traumatized traumatized traumatized it's really PTSD that's why people when it's really PTSD that's why people when it's really PTSD that's why people when they see might make a formula or like they see might make a formula or like they see might make a formula or like even like how can they need to calculate even like how can they need to calculate even like how can they need to calculate tip on the bill they it's just they're

tip on the bill they it's just they're tip on the bill they it's just they're terrified because it brings up those terrified because it brings up those terrified because it brings up those memories when they were kids and being memories when they were kids and being memories when they were kids and being called to Blackboard called to Blackboard called to Blackboard and and and solve the problem you can't solve a solve the problem you can't solve a solve the problem you can't solve a problem and as groupless teacher says problem and as groupless teacher says problem and as groupless teacher says you're an idiot sit down and you feel you're an idiot sit down and you feel you're an idiot sit down and you feel ashamed and and then lowly and that ashamed and and then lowly and that ashamed and and then lowly and that stays with you and so I think that stays with you and so I think that stays with you and so I think that unfortunately that's where we are unfortunately that's where we are unfortunately that's where we are dream and so my dream is that one day dream and so my dream is that one day dream and so my dream is that one day we'll be able to overcome this we'll be able to overcome this we'll be able to overcome this and actually all of these Treasures of and actually all of these Treasures of and actually all of these Treasures of mathematics mathematics mathematics will become widely widely available or will become widely widely available or will become widely widely available or at least people will know where to find at least people will know where to find at least people will know where to find them them them and they will not be afraid of going and they will not be afraid of going and they will not be afraid of going there and looking and I think this will there and looking and I think this will there and looking and I think this will help because like I said for one thing help because like I said for one thing help because like I said for one thing it gives you a sense of belonging it it gives you a sense of belonging it it gives you a sense of belonging it gives you it kind of is an antidote the gives you it kind of is an antidote the gives you it kind of is an antidote the kind of alienation and separation that kind of alienation and separation that kind of alienation and separation that we feel today oftentimes because of we feel today oftentimes because of we feel today oftentimes because of ideological divide ideological divide ideological divide sectarian strife and all kinds of things sectarian strife and all kinds of things sectarian strife and all kinds of things like that because then you will once you like that because then you will once you like that because then you will once you see there's a critical mass of this see there's a critical mass of this see there's a critical mass of this beauty beauty beauty that kind of like tones on you is like that kind of like tones on you is like that kind of like tones on you is like my God this is what we all have in my God this is what we all have in my God this is what we all have in common you mentioned language program we have you mentioned language program we have to talk about it sure at the core of to talk about it sure at the core of to talk about it sure at the core of your book and your work is the language your book and your work is the language your book and your work is the language program can you describe what it is program can you describe what it is program can you describe what it is sure so sure so sure so blank lens is a mathematician it's a blank lens is a mathematician it's a blank lens is a mathematician it's a name of a mathematician Robert langlands name of a mathematician Robert langlands name of a mathematician Robert langlands canadian-born

canadian-born canadian-born still alive he is was a professor at The still alive he is was a professor at The still alive he is was a professor at The Institute for advanced study that we Institute for advanced study that we Institute for advanced study that we talked about where Einstein and gildel talked about where Einstein and gildel talked about where Einstein and gildel and other great scientists have worked and other great scientists have worked and other great scientists have worked in fact he used to occupy the office of in fact he used to occupy the office of in fact he used to occupy the office of Albert Einstein at The Institute for Albert Einstein at The Institute for Albert Einstein at The Institute for advanced Stadium advanced Stadium advanced Stadium so here uh so here uh so here uh in in the late 60s in in the late 60s in in the late 60s he came up with a set of ideas which he came up with a set of ideas which he came up with a set of ideas which captivated a lot of mathematicians captivated a lot of mathematicians captivated a lot of mathematicians several generations of mathematicians by several generations of mathematicians by several generations of mathematicians by now now now which came to be known as the language which came to be known as the language which came to be known as the language program program program and what it is about is connecting and what it is about is connecting and what it is about is connecting different fields of mathematics which different fields of mathematics which different fields of mathematics which seem to be far away from each other seem to be far away from each other seem to be far away from each other for example number Theory which as the for example number Theory which as the for example number Theory which as the name suggests deals with numbers name suggests deals with numbers name suggests deals with numbers and various equations and various equations and various equations with you know like x squared plus y with you know like x squared plus y with you know like x squared plus y squared equals one squared equals one squared equals one um and on the other side um and on the other side um and on the other side harmonic analysis harmonic analysis harmonic analysis something that something that something that any music lover can appreciate because any music lover can appreciate because any music lover can appreciate because uh the sound of a symphony can be kind uh the sound of a symphony can be kind uh the sound of a symphony can be kind of decomposed into sounds of different of decomposed into sounds of different of decomposed into sounds of different instruments and each of those sounds can instruments and each of those sounds can instruments and each of those sounds can be represented by a wave like this like be represented by a wave like this like be represented by a wave like this like a sine function a sine function a sine function those are the harmonics they actually those are the harmonics they actually those are the harmonics they actually the period of a harmonic periods of the period of a harmonic periods of the period of a harmonic periods of different nodes are different they different nodes are different they different nodes are different they correspond to different notes and correspond to different notes and correspond to different notes and different instruments different different instruments different different instruments different semitones if you will semitones if you will semitones if you will but they all combine together into but they all combine together into but they all combine together into something something something diff something special which which is diff something special which which is diff something special which which is not cannot be reduced to any one of

not cannot be reduced to any one of not cannot be reduced to any one of those so it's the mathematically it's those so it's the mathematically it's those so it's the mathematically it's the idea that you can decompose a signal the idea that you can decompose a signal the idea that you can decompose a signal into as a collection as a simultaneous into as a collection as a simultaneous into as a collection as a simultaneous oscillation of several Elementary oscillation of several Elementary oscillation of several Elementary signals signals signals that's called harmonic analysis that's called harmonic analysis that's called harmonic analysis so what language found is that some so what language found is that some so what language found is that some really difficult questions really difficult questions really difficult questions in number Theory can be translated into in number Theory can be translated into in number Theory can be translated into much more easily tractable questions in much more easily tractable questions in much more easily tractable questions in harmonic analysis that was his initial harmonic analysis that was his initial harmonic analysis that was his initial idea but what happened next surprised idea but what happened next surprised idea but what happened next surprised everybody that the kind of patterns that everybody that the kind of patterns that everybody that the kind of patterns that he was able to observe the kind of he was able to observe the kind of he was able to observe the kind of regularities that he was able to observe regularities that he was able to observe regularities that he was able to observe which were quite surprising which were quite surprising which were quite surprising were subsequently found in other areas were subsequently found in other areas were subsequently found in other areas of mathematics of mathematics of mathematics for example in geometry for example in geometry for example in geometry and eventually in quantum physics and eventually in quantum physics and eventually in quantum physics so in fact so in fact so in fact Ed Witten who is a kind of a dean of Ed Witten who is a kind of a dean of Ed Witten who is a kind of a dean of modern theoretical physicists the modern theoretical physicists the modern theoretical physicists the professor at The Institute for advanced professor at The Institute for advanced professor at The Institute for advanced study as well study as well study as well got interested in this subject I got interested in this subject I got interested in this subject I described in my book how it happened described in my book how it happened described in my book how it happened and he was one instrumental in um and he was one instrumental in um and he was one instrumental in um in Bridging the Gap between this in Bridging the Gap between this in Bridging the Gap between this patterns in found in physics and in patterns in found in physics and in patterns in found in physics and in Geometry finding kind of a Geometry finding kind of a Geometry finding kind of a substrate a kind of a super stratum if substrate a kind of a super stratum if substrate a kind of a super stratum if you will it's kind of uh over our kind you will it's kind of uh over our kind you will it's kind of uh over our kind of a way to connect these two things of a way to connect these two things of a way to connect these two things kind of a bridge between these two kind of a bridge between these two kind of a bridge between these two Fields so I subsequently collaborate Fields so I subsequently collaborate Fields so I subsequently collaborate with whiten on this and this has been with whiten on this and this has been with whiten on this and this has been one of the major themes of my research one of the major themes of my research one of the major themes of my research um it's sort of um it's sort of um it's sort of I always found it interesting

I always found it interesting I always found it interesting to connect things to unite things to connect things to unite things to connect things to unite things when I was younger I couldn't I couldn't when I was younger I couldn't I couldn't when I was younger I couldn't I couldn't understand why understand why understand why but I was always interested in but I was always interested in but I was always interested in when when not in working in specific when when not in working in specific when when not in working in specific field field field by kind of but kind of cutting across by kind of but kind of cutting across by kind of but kind of cutting across fields fields fields and um and um and um and then I we discovered that for and then I we discovered that for and then I we discovered that for instance I took some people who know instance I took some people who know instance I took some people who know what happens in this field but what happens in this field but what happens in this field but don't know what happens in their field don't know what happens in their field don't know what happens in their field and or conversely and then I would I and or conversely and then I would I and or conversely and then I would I would like find it would like find it would like find it imperative imperative imperative to go out and explain to them to the to go out and explain to them to the to go out and explain to them to the different sides what this is all about different sides what this is all about different sides what this is all about so that more people are aware of this so that more people are aware of this so that more people are aware of this hidden structure so this hidden hidden structure so this hidden hidden structure so this hidden parallels if you will parallels if you will parallels if you will so that has been sort of a theme in my so that has been sort of a theme in my so that has been sort of a theme in my research and so I guess you know now I research and so I guess you know now I research and so I guess you know now I kind of understand more why it's kind of kind of understand more why it's kind of kind of understand more why it's kind of a violence you know like what we talked a violence you know like what we talked a violence you know like what we talked about earlier about earlier about earlier so can you so can you so can you elucidate a little bit how what are the elucidate a little bit how what are the elucidate a little bit how what are the mathematical tools that allow you to mathematical tools that allow you to mathematical tools that allow you to connect these uh different continents of connect these uh different continents of connect these uh different continents of mathematics mathematics mathematics right is there something you can convert right is there something you can convert right is there something you can convert into words that language was able to into words that language was able to into words that language was able to find find and you were able to explore find find and you were able to explore find find and you were able to explore further further further I would say what it suggests is that I would say what it suggests is that I would say what it suggests is that there is some and a hidden principles there is some and a hidden principles there is some and a hidden principles which we still don't understand my my which we still don't understand my my which we still don't understand my my view is that we still don't know why view is that we still don't know why view is that we still don't know why that we can prove some instances of this

that we can prove some instances of this that we can prove some instances of this uh correspondences and connections uh correspondences and connections uh correspondences and connections but we still don't know the real but we still don't know the real but we still don't know the real underlying reasons which means that underlying reasons which means that underlying reasons which means that there is a newly there is a certain there is a newly there is a certain there is a newly there is a certain layer layer layer beneath the surface that we see now beneath the surface that we see now beneath the surface that we see now it is like the so the way I see it now it is like the so the way I see it now it is like the so the way I see it now is like this is like this is like this that there is something that there is something that there is something three-dimensional like this bottle but three-dimensional like this bottle but three-dimensional like this bottle but what we are seeing is this projection what we are seeing is this projection what we are seeing is this projection onto the table and projection to wall onto the table and projection to wall onto the table and projection to wall and then we can map things from one and then we can map things from one and then we can map things from one projection to another and say oh my God projection to another and say oh my God projection to another and say oh my God that's incredible that's incredible that's incredible but the real explanation is that both of but the real explanation is that both of but the real explanation is that both of them are projections of the same thing them are projections of the same thing them are projections of the same thing and that we haven't found yet but that's and that we haven't found yet but that's and that we haven't found yet but that's what I want to find so that's what what I want to find so that's what what I want to find so that's what motivates me I would say motivates me I would say motivates me I would say from number Theory to Geometry to from number Theory to Geometry to from number Theory to Geometry to quantum physics so there is this one quantum physics so there is this one quantum physics so there is this one thing which has different projections thing which has different projections thing which has different projections except it's not just a table and the except it's not just a table and the except it's not just a table and the wall but they're like many different wall but they're like many different wall but they're like many different walls if you will walls if you will walls if you will so what is the philosophical implication so what is the philosophical implication so what is the philosophical implication that there is commonalities like that that there is commonalities like that that there is commonalities like that across these very desperate fields across these very desperate fields across these very desperate fields it means that what we believe are the it means that what we believe are the it means that what we believe are the fundamental elements of fundamental elements of fundamental elements of uh of mathematics are not fundamental uh of mathematics are not fundamental uh of mathematics are not fundamental there is something Beyond it's like we there is something Beyond it's like we there is something Beyond it's like we previously thought that atoms were previously thought that atoms were previously thought that atoms were indivisible indivisible indivisible then we found out that there is nucleus then we found out that there is nucleus then we found out that there is nucleus and electrons and the nucleus consist of and electrons and the nucleus consist of and electrons and the nucleus consist of protons and neutrons then we thought protons and neutrons then we thought protons and neutrons then we thought okay protons and neutrons must be okay protons and neutrons must be okay protons and neutrons must be Elementary Elementary Elementary now we know they consist of quarks now we know they consist of quarks now we know they consist of quarks so it's about kind of finding the quarks so it's about kind of finding the quarks so it's about kind of finding the quarks of mathematics

of mathematics of mathematics of course beyond that there's maybe even of course beyond that there's maybe even of course beyond that there's maybe even more which was my initial motivation to more which was my initial motivation to more which was my initial motivation to study mathematics by the way right so study mathematics by the way right so study mathematics by the way right so quarks was the first time you fell in quarks was the first time you fell in quarks was the first time you fell in love with understanding the nature of love with understanding the nature of love with understanding the nature of reality yeah reality yeah reality yeah what was it like working with Ed Whitton what was it like working with Ed Whitton what was it like working with Ed Whitton who uh many people say is one of the who uh many people say is one of the who uh many people say is one of the smartest smartest smartest humans in history humans in history humans in history or at least mathematical physicists in or at least mathematical physicists in or at least mathematical physicists in history history history yes fascinating I enjoy I enjoyed it yes fascinating I enjoy I enjoyed it yes fascinating I enjoy I enjoyed it very much I also felt they have to keep very much I also felt they have to keep very much I also felt they have to keep up you know and uh so we wrote this long up you know and uh so we wrote this long up you know and uh so we wrote this long paper and in 2007 and we collaborated paper and in 2007 and we collaborated paper and in 2007 and we collaborated for about a year for about a year for about a year I have known him before and we talked I have known him before and we talked I have known him before and we talked before and we have seen him since and we before and we have seen him since and we before and we have seen him since and we talked but it's very different to just talked but it's very different to just talked but it's very different to just meet somebody at conferences and have a meet somebody at conferences and have a meet somebody at conferences and have a conversation conversation conversation as opposed to actually working on the as opposed to actually working on the as opposed to actually working on the project together project together project together so he's very very very very serious very so he's very very very very serious very so he's very very very very serious very focused this is one thing which I have focused this is one thing which I have focused this is one thing which I have to say I was really struck by this why to say I was really struck by this why to say I was really struck by this why is he considered to be is he considered to be is he considered to be such a powerful intellect by many other such a powerful intellect by many other such a powerful intellect by many other powerful intellects powerful intellects powerful intellects he had uh he has had this unique vision he had uh he has had this unique vision he had uh he has had this unique vision of the subject of the subject of the subject he was able to connect different things he was able to connect different things he was able to connect different things especially especially especially find connections between quantum physics find connections between quantum physics find connections between quantum physics and Mathematics and Mathematics and Mathematics almost unparalleled I I don't think almost unparalleled I I don't think almost unparalleled I I don't think anyone comes close in some sense in the

anyone comes close in some sense in the anyone comes close in some sense in the last last last uh you know 50 years to him in terms of uh you know 50 years to him in terms of uh you know 50 years to him in terms of finding just consistently time after finding just consistently time after finding just consistently time after time breaking around new ground new time breaking around new ground new time breaking around new ground new ground so it it would basically one way ground so it it would basically one way ground so it it would basically one way one could describe it is one could describe it is one could describe it is he would take some idea in physics he would take some idea in physics he would take some idea in physics and and then and and then and and then find an interpretation of it in find an interpretation of it in find an interpretation of it in mathematics mathematics mathematics and then say distill it present it in and then say distill it present it in and then say distill it present it in mathematical terms and tell mathematical terms and tell mathematical terms and tell mathematicians this should be like that mathematicians this should be like that mathematicians this should be like that you know kind of like one plus two plus you know kind of like one plus two plus you know kind of like one plus two plus three plus four is minus 1 over 12. three plus four is minus 1 over 12. three plus four is minus 1 over 12. I might think she'd be like no way I might think she'd be like no way I might think she'd be like no way and then and then and then it would pan out and mathematicians it would pan out and mathematicians it would pan out and mathematicians would then like like a whole industry would then like like a whole industry would then like like a whole industry would be created of would be created of would be created of groups of mathematicians trying to prove groups of mathematicians trying to prove groups of mathematicians trying to prove his conjectures and his his ideas and he his conjectures and his his ideas and he his conjectures and his his ideas and he would always be proven right you know so would always be proven right you know so would always be proven right you know so in other words being able to glean some in other words being able to glean some in other words being able to glean some mathematical truths from mathematical truths from mathematical truths from um physical theories that's one side on um physical theories that's one side on um physical theories that's one side on the other hand the other hand the other hand conversely applying sophisticated conversely applying sophisticated conversely applying sophisticated mathematics he's probably mathematics he's probably mathematics he's probably uh uh uh the physics who kind of could learn the physics who kind of could learn the physics who kind of could learn mathematics the fastest I don't think mathematics the fastest I don't think mathematics the fastest I don't think some younger faces maybe could come some younger faces maybe could come some younger faces maybe could come close but it's still quite for them a close but it's still quite for them a close but it's still quite for them a long way to go to to get you know to be long way to go to to get you know to be long way to go to to get you know to be comparable to whiten comparable to whiten comparable to whiten to take some of the most sophisticated to take some of the most sophisticated to take some of the most sophisticated mathematics

mathematics mathematics not learn it to the point where it not learn it to the point where it not learn it to the point where it becomes a practitioner of the subject becomes a practitioner of the subject becomes a practitioner of the subject practically practically practically and then use it to gain some new and then use it to gain some new and then use it to gain some new insights on the physics side insights on the physics side insights on the physics side now of course the thing is that the now of course the thing is that the now of course the thing is that the theory is that physics one could say is theory is that physics one could say is theory is that physics one could say is an assault of a crisis in some sense an assault of a crisis in some sense an assault of a crisis in some sense because of a current gap between the because of a current gap between the because of a current gap between the sophisticated sophisticated sophisticated theories which came from applying theories which came from applying theories which came from applying sophisticated mathematics and the actual sophisticated mathematics and the actual sophisticated mathematics and the actual universe universe universe so we have theories first which describe so we have theories first which describe so we have theories first which describe 10-dimensional worlds 10 dimensional 10-dimensional worlds 10 dimensional 10-dimensional worlds 10 dimensional space-time coming from string theory and space-time coming from string theory and space-time coming from string theory and things like that things like that things like that but we don't know yet how to but we don't know yet how to but we don't know yet how to apply it to understanding our universe apply it to understanding our universe apply it to understanding our universe a lot of progress has been made but it's a lot of progress has been made but it's a lot of progress has been made but it's kind of a a kind of impasse right now kind of a a kind of impasse right now kind of a a kind of impasse right now and at the same time the our most and at the same time the our most and at the same time the our most realistic theories most advanced realistic theories most advanced realistic theories most advanced theories of the four-dimensional theories of the four-dimensional theories of the four-dimensional universe are in contradiction with each universe are in contradiction with each universe are in contradiction with each other other other the standard model describing the the standard model describing the the standard model describing the three four known forces of nature the three four known forces of nature the three four known forces of nature the electromagnetic strong and weak electromagnetic strong and weak electromagnetic strong and weak to with great accuracy and Einstein's to with great accuracy and Einstein's to with great accuracy and Einstein's relativity which describes the fourth relativity which describes the fourth relativity which describes the fourth called gravity everybody everybody above a certain age knows that one these two theories are in contradiction these two theories are in contradiction at the moment and string theory was one at the moment and string theory was one at the moment and string theory was one of the the promise of string theory was

of the the promise of string theory was of the the promise of string theory was that it would unify those two and so far that it would unify those two and so far that it would unify those two and so far it has not has not happened so we are it has not has not happened so we are it has not has not happened so we are kind of at a very interesting place kind of at a very interesting place kind of at a very interesting place right now and I think that new ideas right now and I think that new ideas right now and I think that new ideas perhaps are needed and I I wouldn't be perhaps are needed and I I wouldn't be perhaps are needed and I I wouldn't be surprised if Wheaton is one of those surprised if Wheaton is one of those surprised if Wheaton is one of those people who come up with those ideas well people who come up with those ideas well people who come up with those ideas well he has been one of the he has been one of the he has been one of the one of the people that added a lot of one of the people that added a lot of one of the people that added a lot of ideas under the flag of string theory ideas under the flag of string theory ideas under the flag of string theory uh what do you think about this Theory uh what do you think about this Theory uh what do you think about this Theory what do you think is beautiful about it what do you think is beautiful about it what do you think is beautiful about it string theory string theory string theory well first of all kind of well first of all kind of well first of all kind of um you remember we talked about um you remember we talked about um you remember we talked about pythagoreans and how for pythagoreans pythagoreans and how for pythagoreans pythagoreans and how for pythagoreans the whole world was the symphony where the whole world was the symphony where the whole world was the symphony where you have this different vibrations of you have this different vibrations of you have this different vibrations of all the humans every human is a all the humans every human is a all the humans every human is a vibration every every animal you know vibration every every animal you know vibration every every animal you know every being every tree and every every being every tree and every every being every tree and every Celestial body and so on Celestial body and so on Celestial body and so on so strings that is kind of like that so strings that is kind of like that so strings that is kind of like that because in string theory there is this because in string theory there is this because in string theory there is this fundamental object which is a vibrating fundamental object which is a vibrating fundamental object which is a vibrating string string string and all particles are in a sense and all particles are in a sense and all particles are in a sense supposed to be different modulations or supposed to be different modulations or supposed to be different modulations or vibrations of that string so that by vibrations of that string so that by vibrations of that string so that by itself is already interesting that you itself is already interesting that you itself is already interesting that you kind of kind of kind of describe this diversity of various describe this diversity of various describe this diversity of various particles and interactions between them particles and interactions between them particles and interactions between them using one guiding principle in some using one guiding principle in some using one guiding principle in some sense sense sense but also just the mathematical things but also just the mathematical things but also just the mathematical things that come out of it the uh the kind of that come out of it the uh the kind of that come out of it the uh the kind of um it looks impossible to satisfy um it looks impossible to satisfy um it looks impossible to satisfy various constraints and then that is various constraints and then that is various constraints and then that is sort of like a unique way to do it so sort of like a unique way to do it so sort of like a unique way to do it so that's sort of the

that's sort of the that's sort of the every time that happens when you know every time that happens when you know every time that happens when you know you have some system over like over you have some system over like over you have some system over like over determined system let's suppose determined system let's suppose determined system let's suppose you have to do like five interviews in you have to do like five interviews in you have to do like five interviews in one day yeah and you wake up in the one day yeah and you wake up in the one day yeah and you wake up in the morning and you're like that's morning and you're like that's morning and you're like that's impossible impossible impossible because then so many things have to because then so many things have to because then so many things have to align for instance let's suppose you align for instance let's suppose you align for instance let's suppose you have to go from one place to another so have to go from one place to another so have to go from one place to another so then you have a commute and then who then you have a commute and then who then you have a commute and then who knows maybe there is a traffic jam and knows maybe there is a traffic jam and knows maybe there is a traffic jam and stuff like that and now suppose that it stuff like that and now suppose that it stuff like that and now suppose that it all works seamlessly and there were like all works seamlessly and there were like all works seamlessly and there were like a bunch of places where it could have a bunch of places where it could have a bunch of places where it could have gone hopelessly wrong and it didn't and gone hopelessly wrong and it didn't and gone hopelessly wrong and it didn't and then in the evening you're like wow it then in the evening you're like wow it then in the evening you're like wow it worked that's beautiful right that's worked that's beautiful right that's worked that's beautiful right that's kind of like kind of like kind of like great luck you know we would save but great luck you know we would save but great luck you know we would save but in science this happens sometimes that in science this happens sometimes that in science this happens sometimes that you have this Theory which not supposed you have this Theory which not supposed you have this Theory which not supposed to work because there's so many to work because there's so many to work because there's so many seemingly contradictory demands on it seemingly contradictory demands on it seemingly contradictory demands on it and yet there is a sweet spot where they and yet there is a sweet spot where they and yet there is a sweet spot where they balance each other so string theory is balance each other so string theory is balance each other so string theory is kind of like this kind of like this kind of like this the unfortunate aspect of it is that it the unfortunate aspect of it is that it the unfortunate aspect of it is that it balances itself in 10 dimensions and not balances itself in 10 dimensions and not balances itself in 10 dimensions and not in four in four in four so maybe there is another Universe so maybe there is another Universe so maybe there is another Universe somewhere somewhere somewhere [Laughter] [Laughter] [Laughter] as a mathematician as a mathematician as a mathematician for me all spaces are created equal yeah for me all spaces are created equal yeah for me all spaces are created equal yeah 10 dimensional four-dimensional so 10 dimensional four-dimensional so 10 dimensional four-dimensional so mathematicians love String Theory mathematicians love String Theory mathematicians love String Theory because it has given us so much so much because it has given us so much so much because it has given us so much so much food for thought food for thought food for thought but do you think but do you think but do you think it's a correct it's a correct it's a correct or a incorrect theory for understanding

or a incorrect theory for understanding or a incorrect theory for understanding this reality this reality this reality so it might be a theory that explains so it might be a theory that explains so it might be a theory that explains some 10th dimensional reality in some some 10th dimensional reality in some some 10th dimensional reality in some other universe but is it potentially other universe but is it potentially other universe but is it potentially what do you think are the odds again what do you think are the odds again what do you think are the odds again Financial advice if you were to bet Financial advice if you were to bet Financial advice if you were to bet what do you think are the odds that um what do you think are the odds that um what do you think are the odds that um it gets us closer to understanding this it gets us closer to understanding this it gets us closer to understanding this reality reality reality well in the Forum that it is now that well in the Forum that it is now that well in the Forum that it is now that seems unlikely but it could well be that seems unlikely but it could well be that seems unlikely but it could well be that based on these ideas with some based on these ideas with some based on these ideas with some modifications with some essential new modifications with some essential new modifications with some essential new elements elements elements it could it could work out so I would it could it could work out so I would it could it could work out so I would say right now it doesn't look so good say right now it doesn't look so good say right now it doesn't look so good like from the point of view that we of like from the point of view that we of like from the point of view that we of what we from what we know what we from what we know what we from what we know but maybe somebody will come in into a but maybe somebody will come in into a but maybe somebody will come in into a juice like square root of negative one I juice like square root of negative one I juice like square root of negative one I mean they already introduced but I mean mean they already introduced but I mean mean they already introduced but I mean kind of like as a metaphor yeah maybe kind of like as a metaphor yeah maybe kind of like as a metaphor yeah maybe somebody will come and say what if we do somebody will come and say what if we do somebody will come and say what if we do this it looks crazy you know speaking of this it looks crazy you know speaking of this it looks crazy you know speaking of news boor news boor news boor he had this famous quote that he said to he had this famous quote that he said to he had this famous quote that he said to somebody somebody somebody there is no doubt that your theory is there is no doubt that your theory is there is no doubt that your theory is crazy the question is whether it's crazy crazy the question is whether it's crazy crazy the question is whether it's crazy enough to describe reality so that's enough to describe reality so that's enough to describe reality so that's where we are kind of you know speaking where we are kind of you know speaking where we are kind of you know speaking of crazy and crazy enough uh let me ask of crazy and crazy enough uh let me ask of crazy and crazy enough uh let me ask for um for um for um for therapy for advice for wisdom in uh for therapy for advice for wisdom in uh for therapy for advice for wisdom in uh returning to Eric Weinstein and maybe returning to Eric Weinstein and maybe returning to Eric Weinstein and maybe give some guidance to understanding give some guidance to understanding give some guidance to understanding his view on his attempt at a theory of his view on his attempt at a theory of his view on his attempt at a theory of everything that he calls geometric Unity

everything that he calls geometric Unity everything that he calls geometric Unity that he told me that you may have some that he told me that you may have some that he told me that you may have some inkling of an under understanding of inkling of an under understanding of inkling of an under understanding of if you were to describe this Theory to if you were to describe this Theory to if you were to describe this Theory to aliens that visited Earth how would you do it or you could try if how would you do it or you could try if it was just me it was just me it was just me visiting Earth uh how would you describe visiting Earth uh how would you describe visiting Earth uh how would you describe your best understanding of it your best understanding of it your best understanding of it he shared with me some of it when I was he shared with me some of it when I was he shared with me some of it when I was in New York at Colombia like 11 years in New York at Colombia like 11 years in New York at Colombia like 11 years ago we actually spent a lot of time ago we actually spent a lot of time ago we actually spent a lot of time where he explained to me and I found it where he explained to me and I found it where he explained to me and I found it beautiful beautiful beautiful it has a very um original idea at the it has a very um original idea at the it has a very um original idea at the core of it where you have this instead core of it where you have this instead core of it where you have this instead of four dimensional instead of 10 of four dimensional instead of 10 of four dimensional instead of 10 dimensional he has 14 dimensional space dimensional he has 14 dimensional space dimensional he has 14 dimensional space and I thought it was it was really and I thought it was it was really and I thought it was it was really original and this is exactly original and this is exactly original and this is exactly goes to the point I made earlier that we goes to the point I made earlier that we goes to the point I made earlier that we need new ideas need new ideas need new ideas I feel that without some fundamentally I feel that without some fundamentally I feel that without some fundamentally new idea we won't be able to get closer new idea we won't be able to get closer new idea we won't be able to get closer to understanding our universe now I have to understanding our universe now I have to understanding our universe now I have a problem with the whole idea of Theory a problem with the whole idea of Theory a problem with the whole idea of Theory of Everything You know I don't believe of Everything You know I don't believe of Everything You know I don't believe that one exists nor nor that we should that one exists nor nor that we should that one exists nor nor that we should um um um aim to construct one aim to construct one aim to construct one and I think it's it's really um not to and I think it's it's really um not to and I think it's it's really um not to offend anybody but it's ultimately a offend anybody but it's ultimately a offend anybody but it's ultimately a fault of education system of physicists fault of education system of physicists fault of education system of physicists like in mathematics we do not we're not like in mathematics we do not we're not like in mathematics we do not we're not brought up we're not educated as brought up we're not educated as brought up we're not educated as mathematicians with the idea that one mathematicians with the idea that one mathematicians with the idea that one day we will come up with the theory of day we will come up with the theory of day we will come up with the theory of everything even though as a joke I said

everything even though as a joke I said everything even though as a joke I said that language program is mathematical that language program is mathematical that language program is mathematical Theory of Everything Theory of Everything Theory of Everything but I mean this is a kind of a but I mean this is a kind of a but I mean this is a kind of a tongue-in-cheek but isn't a little bit tongue-in-cheek but isn't a little bit tongue-in-cheek but isn't a little bit kind of that it's not really because kind of that it's not really because kind of that it's not really because first of all it doesn't cover all fields first of all it doesn't cover all fields first of all it doesn't cover all fields of mathematics and it covers specific of mathematics and it covers specific of mathematics and it covers specific phenomena but isn't it spiritually phenomena but isn't it spiritually phenomena but isn't it spiritually striving towards the same platonic form striving towards the same platonic form striving towards the same platonic form of the theory of everything like of the theory of everything like of the theory of everything like connecting connecting connecting but connecting connecting connecting but connecting connecting connecting but connecting doesn't mean that it covers connecting doesn't mean that it covers connecting doesn't mean that it covers everything right so you could connect everything right so you could connect everything right so you could connect two things and then you have a two things and then you have a two things and then you have a infinitely many other things which are infinitely many other things which are infinitely many other things which are outside of the purview of this outside of the purview of this outside of the purview of this connection connection connection that's how it is in mathematics I I feel that's how it is in mathematics I I feel that's how it is in mathematics I I feel and I would venture to say that most and I would venture to say that most and I would venture to say that most mathematicians look at it this way like mathematicians look at it this way like mathematicians look at it this way like there's no idea that somehow I think there's no idea that somehow I think there's no idea that somehow I think it's actually impossible because we're it's actually impossible because we're it's actually impossible because we're not talking about such a thing as like not talking about such a thing as like not talking about such a thing as like one Universe we're talking about all one Universe we're talking about all one Universe we're talking about all possible universes of all possible possible universes of all possible possible universes of all possible dimensions and so on it is just not dimensions and so on it is just not dimensions and so on it is just not feasible to have a unified unify feasible to have a unified unify feasible to have a unified unify everything in one equation everything in one equation everything in one equation now physicists on the other hand have now physicists on the other hand have now physicists on the other hand have been brought up educated for decades been brought up educated for decades been brought up educated for decades with this idea and to me and I I'm not with this idea and to me and I I'm not with this idea and to me and I I'm not sure I should say that but I feel like sure I should say that but I feel like sure I should say that but I feel like it's a kind of an ultimate ego trip it's a kind of an ultimate ego trip it's a kind of an ultimate ego trip so that I have come up with the unified so that I have come up with the unified so that I have come up with the unified I have found the intensity of everything I have found the intensity of everything I have found the intensity of everything it's me and my name will be on it I it's me and my name will be on it I it's me and my name will be on it I think a lot of physicists get educated think a lot of physicists get educated think a lot of physicists get educated this way especially men take it this way especially men take it this way especially men take it seriously yeah and I've seen that happen seriously yeah and I've seen that happen seriously yeah and I've seen that happen and I think it is counterproductive I and I think it is counterproductive I and I think it is counterproductive I think that a lot of people agree that think that a lot of people agree that think that a lot of people agree that this debate is kind of I feel like it's

this debate is kind of I feel like it's this debate is kind of I feel like it's kind of settled I think I hear it less kind of settled I think I hear it less kind of settled I think I hear it less and less and less and less but but but I disagree with the whole premise so you I disagree with the whole premise so you I disagree with the whole premise so you uh it's interesting because because both uh it's interesting because because both uh it's interesting because because both are interesting points you made which is are interesting points you made which is are interesting points you made which is you don't think a Theory of Everything you don't think a Theory of Everything you don't think a Theory of Everything exists and exists and exists and you don't think the pursuit of a theory you don't think the pursuit of a theory you don't think the pursuit of a theory of everything is good so I think you of everything is good so I think you of everything is good so I think you spoke to the second thing which is spoke to the second thing which is spoke to the second thing which is basically uh that the pursuit of a basically uh that the pursuit of a basically uh that the pursuit of a theory of everything becomes like a drug theory of everything becomes like a drug theory of everything becomes like a drug to the human ego that's right so it is a to the human ego that's right so it is a to the human ego that's right so it is a huge motivating factor I don't deny that huge motivating factor I don't deny that huge motivating factor I don't deny that but I feel that it's there are better but I feel that it's there are better but I feel that it's there are better ways to motivate people than like that ways to motivate people than like that ways to motivate people than like that then this way okay so then this way okay so then this way okay so um I would say for instance if one um I would say for instance if one um I would say for instance if one because then it's not a game of Winner because then it's not a game of Winner because then it's not a game of Winner Takes to all in some sense Takes to all in some sense Takes to all in some sense and In fairness when physicists say and In fairness when physicists say and In fairness when physicists say Theory of Everything well Grand unified Theory of Everything well Grand unified Theory of Everything well Grand unified theory they mean something very specific theory they mean something very specific theory they mean something very specific which is unifying the standard model and which is unifying the standard model and which is unifying the standard model and Einstein's relativity Theory which is a Einstein's relativity Theory which is a Einstein's relativity Theory which is a theory of gravity theory of gravity theory of gravity so they don't necessarily a cloud of so they don't necessarily a cloud of so they don't necessarily a cloud of physics may say this worse but they physics may say this worse but they physics may say this worse but they don't really mean them don't really mean them don't really mean them I think it's important to realize that I think it's important to realize that I think it's important to realize that that in my opinion that's not productive that in my opinion that's not productive that in my opinion that's not productive and it's not visible anyway so having and it's not visible anyway so having and it's not visible anyway so having said that there are some theories are said that there are some theories are said that there are some theories are better than others obviously so for better than others obviously so for better than others obviously so for instance Eric's theory has as far as I instance Eric's theory has as far as I instance Eric's theory has as far as I understand does have a certain way of understand does have a certain way of understand does have a certain way of producing some of the elementary producing some of the elementary producing some of the elementary particles that we see and as well as the particles that we see and as well as the particles that we see and as well as the force of gravity so it does have that force of gravity so it does have that force of gravity so it does have that promise promise promise I feel that from at least from the place

I feel that from at least from the place I feel that from at least from the place where I had seen it about 10 years ago where I had seen it about 10 years ago where I had seen it about 10 years ago it still required a lot of work to get it still required a lot of work to get it still required a lot of work to get to the point of actually saying that it to the point of actually saying that it to the point of actually saying that it does work because does work because does work because you know a lot there are a lot of you know a lot there are a lot of you know a lot there are a lot of elements it's a it's a huge Enterprise elements it's a it's a huge Enterprise elements it's a it's a huge Enterprise to have a theory because you have just to have a theory because you have just to have a theory because you have just to describe the fields sort of the the to describe the fields sort of the the to describe the fields sort of the the building blocks of the theory it's building blocks of the theory it's building blocks of the theory it's already tremendous undertaking and he's already tremendous undertaking and he's already tremendous undertaking and he's trying to do it for curved spaces and trying to do it for curved spaces and trying to do it for curved spaces and greater generality which is what makes greater generality which is what makes greater generality which is what makes it so unique and so beautiful it so unique and so beautiful it so unique and so beautiful but then there are on top of that there but then there are on top of that there but then there are on top of that there are this issue of quantization of are this issue of quantization of are this issue of quantization of actually describing them as Quantum actually describing them as Quantum actually describing them as Quantum field Theory and the quantum field field Theory and the quantum field field Theory and the quantum field Theory even as a language as a framework Theory even as a language as a framework Theory even as a language as a framework is currently incomplete in my opinion is currently incomplete in my opinion is currently incomplete in my opinion and not only my opinion it's like and not only my opinion it's like and not only my opinion it's like everybody's uh it's uh everybody agrees everybody's uh it's uh everybody agrees everybody's uh it's uh everybody agrees on that that it's a it's a it's a collection of Tricks so it's a it's a collection of Tricks so it's a collection of tools it's a toolbox but collection of tools it's a toolbox but collection of tools it's a toolbox but it is not uh a a it is not uh a a it is not uh a a consistent rigorous Theory like number consistent rigorous Theory like number consistent rigorous Theory like number theory in mathematics physicist has theory in mathematics physicist has theory in mathematics physicist has still have still been able to derive still have still been able to derive still have still been able to derive predictions predictions predictions uh from it by and um confirm them with uh from it by and um confirm them with uh from it by and um confirm them with to Great accuracy but the underpinnings to Great accuracy but the underpinnings to Great accuracy but the underpinnings that it doesn't have the real grigorous that it doesn't have the real grigorous that it doesn't have the real grigorous Foundation from mathematical perspective Foundation from mathematical perspective Foundation from mathematical perspective so in that sense even if so in that sense even if so in that sense even if in that framework a new Theory in that framework a new Theory in that framework a new Theory could um lead to an explanation of some some

um lead to an explanation of some some new explanation of some phenomena it new explanation of some phenomena it new explanation of some phenomena it would still be incomplete in a sense would still be incomplete in a sense would still be incomplete in a sense because it wouldn't be mathematically because it wouldn't be mathematically because it wouldn't be mathematically rigorous issue what I mean because the rigorous issue what I mean because the rigorous issue what I mean because the whole framework is not yet on a firm whole framework is not yet on a firm whole framework is not yet on a firm foundation foundation foundation so it's not consistent right why is it so it's not consistent right why is it so it's not consistent right why is it that the Universe should have that the Universe should have that the Universe should have so that's to your first point do you so that's to your first point do you so that's to your first point do you think the universe has a beautiful clean think the universe has a beautiful clean think the universe has a beautiful clean when you show up and meet God and when you show up and meet God and when you show up and meet God and there's one equation on the board and there's one equation on the board and there's one equation on the board and the two of you just chuckle the things the two of you just chuckle the things the two of you just chuckle the things that the equation exists that the equation exists that the equation exists yeah there are such equations for yeah there are such equations for yeah there are such equations for instance instance instance let's say I am let's say I am let's say I am interested in particular question right interested in particular question right interested in particular question right so so so in the language program say so moving in the language program say so moving in the language program say so moving away from physics so let's talk about away from physics so let's talk about away from physics so let's talk about math so math so math so in in the context of language program in in the context of language program in in the context of language program I have recently developed with my I have recently developed with my I have recently developed with my co-authors I think of in cash then and co-authors I think of in cash then and co-authors I think of in cash then and kind of a new strand a new flavor of the kind of a new strand a new flavor of the kind of a new strand a new flavor of the language program if you will language program if you will language program if you will but so far it's a sort of it's a vision but so far it's a sort of it's a vision but so far it's a sort of it's a vision it's a set of conjectures it's a set of conjectures it's a set of conjectures which we have proved in some cases but which we have proved in some cases but which we have proved in some cases but not in full generality not in full generality not in full generality so yes I would like to to use your so yes I would like to to use your so yes I would like to to use your framework for meet the Creator and ask framework for meet the Creator and ask framework for meet the Creator and ask her what is the explanation of this and it what is the explanation of this and it may well be that you will answer in a may well be that you will answer in a may well be that you will answer in a way that I will just burst out laughing way that I will just burst out laughing way that I will just burst out laughing it's like how could we not see it you it's like how could we not see it you it's like how could we not see it you see so that I totally see see so that I totally see see so that I totally see but I don't see one equation governing but I don't see one equation governing but I don't see one equation governing one one equation governing them all

one one equation governing them all one one equation governing them all not one equation to govern them all but not one equation to govern them all but not one equation to govern them all but it does seem that such equations exist it does seem that such equations exist it does seem that such equations exist what she will tell you something and you what she will tell you something and you what she will tell you something and you look back and say how could I not see it look back and say how could I not see it look back and say how could I not see it it seems like the the truth at the end it seems like the the truth at the end it seems like the the truth at the end of the day is simple of the day is simple of the day is simple that we're seeking especially through that we're seeking especially through that we're seeking especially through mathematics it seems somehow simple mathematics it seems somehow simple mathematics it seems somehow simple the the the nature reality the thing the the the nature reality the thing the the the nature reality the thing that governs it seems to be simple I that governs it seems to be simple I that governs it seems to be simple I wonder why that is wonder why that is wonder why that is and I also wonder if it's not totally and I also wonder if it's not totally and I also wonder if it's not totally Incorrect and we're just craving the Incorrect and we're just craving the Incorrect and we're just craving the simplicity simplicity simplicity and then and then and then mixing into the whole conversation about mixing into the whole conversation about mixing into the whole conversation about how much The Observer that creates how much The Observer that creates how much The Observer that creates Simplicity is part of the answer Simplicity is part of the answer Simplicity is part of the answer it's a whole big giant mess it's a whole big giant mess it's a whole big giant mess or a whole a whole big beautiful or a whole a whole big beautiful or a whole a whole big beautiful painting painting painting or Symphony you said of Eric uh or Symphony you said of Eric uh or Symphony you said of Eric uh Weinstein that I find it remarkable that Weinstein that I find it remarkable that Weinstein that I find it remarkable that Eric was able to come up with such Eric was able to come up with such Eric was able to come up with such beautiful and original ideas even though beautiful and original ideas even though beautiful and original ideas even though he has been out of Academia for so long he has been out of Academia for so long he has been out of Academia for so long yes doing wonderful things in other yes doing wonderful things in other yes doing wonderful things in other areas such as economics and finance I'd areas such as economics and finance I'd areas such as economics and finance I'd like to use that kind of quote as just a like to use that kind of quote as just a like to use that kind of quote as just a question to you about different places question to you about different places question to you about different places where where where um people of your level can operate so um people of your level can operate so um people of your level can operate so inside Academia and outside what is the inside Academia and outside what is the inside Academia and outside what is the difference difference difference um of doing mathematics inside Academia um of doing mathematics inside Academia um of doing mathematics inside Academia and outside and outside and outside just not even mathematics but developing just not even mathematics but developing just not even mathematics but developing beautiful original ideas

beautiful original ideas beautiful original ideas where's the place where's the place where's the place that your imagination can flourish most that your imagination can flourish most that your imagination can flourish most so the the limitations of academias so the the limitations of academias so the the limitations of academias there's a community of people that there's a community of people that there's a community of people that take a set of axioms take a set of axioms take a set of axioms as gospel so it's harder to take that as gospel so it's harder to take that as gospel so it's harder to take that leap into the unknown but it's also the leap into the unknown but it's also the leap into the unknown but it's also the nice thing about Academia is some of the nice thing about Academia is some of the nice thing about Academia is some of the most brilliant people in the world are most brilliant people in the world are most brilliant people in the world are there it's that Community both the there it's that Community both the there it's that Community both the competition the collaboration is there competition the collaboration is there competition the collaboration is there um um um yeah yeah yeah I wonder if there's something you could I wonder if there's something you could I wonder if there's something you could say sort of to uh say sort of to uh say sort of to uh uh further about this world that people uh further about this world that people uh further about this world that people that might not be familiar with that might not be familiar with that might not be familiar with but I think you you gave a very good but I think you you gave a very good but I think you you gave a very good description I'm not sure I could on it description I'm not sure I could on it description I'm not sure I could on it because I don't have an overarching because I don't have an overarching because I don't have an overarching theory of academic Academia yes I theory of academic Academia yes I theory of academic Academia yes I definitely have been part of it and I'm definitely have been part of it and I'm definitely have been part of it and I'm grateful because it is uh it gives you a grateful because it is uh it gives you a grateful because it is uh it gives you a great sense of security great sense of security great sense of security which comes with its own downside too which comes with its own downside too which comes with its own downside too because you kind of like get a little because you kind of like get a little because you kind of like get a little disconnected from The Real World because disconnected from The Real World because disconnected from The Real World because you get tenure so you feel financially you get tenure so you feel financially you get tenure so you feel financially secure you know I didn't pay you that secure you know I didn't pay you that secure you know I didn't pay you that much so to speak you know relatively much so to speak you know relatively much so to speak you know relatively speaking and uh it's comfortable but speaking and uh it's comfortable but speaking and uh it's comfortable but it's not that much but you you can't be it's not that much but you you can't be it's not that much but you you can't be fired so there is something about this fired so there is something about this fired so there is something about this which I definitely have benefit from it which I definitely have benefit from it which I definitely have benefit from it you know and it does you know and it does you know and it does um people are not even aware what it's um people are not even aware what it's um people are not even aware what it's like to to live outside where you can like to to live outside where you can like to to live outside where you can you where you don't have this type of you where you don't have this type of you where you don't have this type of security on the other hand

security on the other hand security on the other hand that also means that we're lacking that also means that we're lacking that also means that we're lacking certain skills that sort of real people certain skills that sort of real people certain skills that sort of real people in the real world have developed out of in the real world have developed out of in the real world have developed out of necessity to deal with that sort of necessity to deal with that sort of necessity to deal with that sort of insecurity so it kind of always cuts insecurity so it kind of always cuts insecurity so it kind of always cuts both ways you know it was one-handed both ways you know it was one-handed both ways you know it was one-handed gives and with the other hand it takes gives and with the other hand it takes gives and with the other hand it takes away and it's a very interesting setup away and it's a very interesting setup away and it's a very interesting setup and also on the one hand we are all and also on the one hand we are all and also on the one hand we are all supposed to be the truth Seekers and supposed to be the truth Seekers and supposed to be the truth Seekers and but in reality of course it is a human but in reality of course it is a human but in reality of course it is a human activity and it is a human community and activity and it is a human community and activity and it is a human community and with all kinds of good bad and ugly with all kinds of good bad and ugly with all kinds of good bad and ugly things that happen a lot of them under things that happen a lot of them under things that happen a lot of them under the radar screen so to speak and so the radar screen so to speak and so the radar screen so to speak and so but maybe there is something to it there but maybe there is something to it there but maybe there is something to it there is definitely there are definitely is definitely there are definitely is definitely there are definitely people who are upholding kind of the old people who are upholding kind of the old people who are upholding kind of the old tradition definitely and that is tradition definitely and that is tradition definitely and that is inspiring and I aspire to be you know inspiring and I aspire to be you know inspiring and I aspire to be you know one of those do my best so whether this one of those do my best so whether this one of those do my best so whether this is is is um a system that will stay or should um a system that will stay or should um a system that will stay or should stay I don't know I really don't know stay I don't know I really don't know stay I don't know I really don't know that's really fast yeah it's it's that's really fast yeah it's it's that's really fast yeah it's it's fascinating what uh especially with it fascinating what uh especially with it fascinating what uh especially with it just to introduce the bit of AI poison just to introduce the bit of AI poison just to introduce the bit of AI poison into the mix as that changes the nature into the mix as that changes the nature into the mix as that changes the nature of Education perhaps as well uh what the of Education perhaps as well uh what the of Education perhaps as well uh what the role of the university is in the next 10 role of the university is in the next 10 role of the university is in the next 10 20 50 100 years I wonder 20 50 100 years I wonder 20 50 100 years I wonder uh I wonder and I wonder that you know uh I wonder and I wonder that you know uh I wonder and I wonder that you know how do you make sense that Einstein was how do you make sense that Einstein was how do you make sense that Einstein was working after attempting I believe to be working after attempting I believe to be working after attempting I believe to be a university Professor a university Professor a university Professor yeah as a patent clerk well but I have

yeah as a patent clerk well but I have yeah as a patent clerk well but I have to say to these days to say to these days to say to these days um um um the the science has become so much the the science has become so much the the science has become so much faster it is really hard to do it being faster it is really hard to do it being faster it is really hard to do it being outside now Eric is unique in this way outside now Eric is unique in this way outside now Eric is unique in this way even though he did you know go to Great even though he did you know go to Great even though he did you know go to Great uh undergraduate and graduate uh you uh undergraduate and graduate uh you uh undergraduate and graduate uh you know School schools know School schools know School schools but and then worked for a while in but and then worked for a while in but and then worked for a while in Academia Academia Academia um there are very few examples like this um there are very few examples like this um there are very few examples like this this is yutang Zhang who proved an this is yutang Zhang who proved an this is yutang Zhang who proved an important conjunction number theory important conjunction number theory important conjunction number theory about 10 years ago and is now it's about 10 years ago and is now it's about 10 years ago and is now it's understanding is a professor at UC Santa understanding is a professor at UC Santa understanding is a professor at UC Santa Barbara he worked outside of Academia Barbara he worked outside of Academia Barbara he worked outside of Academia and was able to make and was able to make and was able to make tremendous Advance on his own tremendous Advance on his own tremendous Advance on his own this case is exceedingly rare this case is exceedingly rare this case is exceedingly rare in part because Academia is trying to in part because Academia is trying to in part because Academia is trying to protect its dwarf and it's kind of it's protect its dwarf and it's kind of it's protect its dwarf and it's kind of it's it's creating this sort of prohibitive it's creating this sort of prohibitive it's creating this sort of prohibitive cost of of an outsider that is true but cost of of an outsider that is true but cost of of an outsider that is true but there is also something about how much there is also something about how much there is also something about how much how much concentration in mathematics I how much concentration in mathematics I how much concentration in mathematics I don't think people who are not who are don't think people who are not who are don't think people who are not who are not in the field understand what kind of not in the field understand what kind of not in the field understand what kind of focus focus focus and concentration and concentration and concentration actually doing like mathematics at the actually doing like mathematics at the actually doing like mathematics at the top level these days requires because top level these days requires because top level these days requires because we're not talking about something that we're not talking about something that we're not talking about something that is more or less good it is something is more or less good it is something is more or less good it is something which is unassailable you know it's which is unassailable you know it's which is unassailable you know it's finding finding finding this treasure at the bottom of the ocean this treasure at the bottom of the ocean this treasure at the bottom of the ocean you know without uh uh you know the you know without uh uh you know the you know without uh uh you know the accoland you know without oxygen and

accoland you know without oxygen and accoland you know without oxygen and that's why you know it's it's not the that's why you know it's it's not the that's why you know it's it's not the people go crazy sometimes you know but people go crazy sometimes you know but people go crazy sometimes you know but there is a reason for that well let me there is a reason for that well let me there is a reason for that well let me let me ask you about that sort of just let me ask you about that sort of just let me ask you about that sort of just to linger on that the amount of to linger on that the amount of to linger on that the amount of concentration required concentration required concentration required um Cal Newport um Cal Newport um Cal Newport wrote a book called Deep work he's a wrote a book called Deep work he's a wrote a book called Deep work he's a theoretical computer scientist um um he took quite seriously the the task of he took quite seriously the the task of he took quite seriously the the task of allocating the hours in the day for that allocating the hours in the day for that allocating the hours in the day for that kind of deep thinking and then the kind of deep thinking and then the kind of deep thinking and then the mathematicians is theoretical computer mathematicians is theoretical computer mathematicians is theoretical computer scientists on steroids so for your own scientists on steroids so for your own scientists on steroids so for your own life and what you've observed life and what you've observed life and what you've observed well let me ask the big question how to well let me ask the big question how to well let me ask the big question how to think think think how to think deeply how to think deeply how to think deeply how to find the mental psychological how to find the mental psychological how to find the mental psychological pragmatic space to really sit there and pragmatic space to really sit there and pragmatic space to really sit there and think deeply think deeply think deeply how do you do it in the moment you how do you do it in the moment you how do you do it in the moment you remember where you really deeply thought what was it an accident was it what was it an accident was it deliberate deliberate deliberate no it's deliberate because you know no it's deliberate because you know no it's deliberate because you know um um um first of all my first years first of all my first years first of all my first years as a mathematician you know I worked every day I worked every day and weekends holidays doesn't matter and weekends holidays doesn't matter and weekends holidays doesn't matter um um um I didn't even question that so I would I didn't even question that so I would I didn't even question that so I would feel something's missing if I feel something's missing if I feel something's missing if I took a day off took a day off took a day off and you know and you know and you know so it was just a kind of a sustained

so it was just a kind of a sustained so it was just a kind of a sustained effort the point is that still the effort the point is that still the effort the point is that still the process is non-linear to go back to what process is non-linear to go back to what process is non-linear to go back to what we discussed earlier that in other words we discussed earlier that in other words we discussed earlier that in other words the way I see it is you just you are the way I see it is you just you are the way I see it is you just you are making an effort to to bring all the making an effort to to bring all the making an effort to to bring all the information into information into information into Focus what you believe is correct and Focus what you believe is correct and Focus what you believe is correct and you're playing with different ways of connecting things ways of connecting things but it is a total Miracle when it when but it is a total Miracle when it when but it is a total Miracle when it when suddenly there is inside strikes it is suddenly there is inside strikes it is suddenly there is inside strikes it is not something that in my experience not something that in my experience not something that in my experience could be predicted could be predicted could be predicted or even or even or even um anticipated you know or like brought um anticipated you know or like brought um anticipated you know or like brought closer closer closer there's a famous story about Einstein there's a famous story about Einstein there's a famous story about Einstein that he used to you know go uh think that he used to you know go uh think that he used to you know go uh think think and then go for a walk and like he think and then go for a walk and like he think and then go for a walk and like he would whistle and sometimes so I would whistle and sometimes so I would whistle and sometimes so I remember the first time I heard the remember the first time I heard the remember the first time I heard the story story story I thought how interesting so the I thought how interesting so the I thought how interesting so the coincidence that he came up to him when coincidence that he came up to him when coincidence that he came up to him when he was whistling but in fact it's not he was whistling but in fact it's not he was whistling but in fact it's not this is how it works in some sense that this is how it works in some sense that this is how it works in some sense that you have to prepare for it but then the you have to prepare for it but then the you have to prepare for it but then the moment it happens when you stop thinking moment it happens when you stop thinking moment it happens when you stop thinking actually so the moment of Discovery is actually so the moment of Discovery is actually so the moment of Discovery is the moment when thinking stops and you the moment when thinking stops and you the moment when thinking stops and you know you kind of you kind of almost know you kind of you kind of almost know you kind of you kind of almost become that truth that you're seeking become that truth that you're seeking become that truth that you're seeking but you cannot do it by Will in some but you cannot do it by Will in some but you cannot do it by Will in some sense it's some it's kind of like you sense it's some it's kind of like you sense it's some it's kind of like you know how in eastern tradition they have know how in eastern tradition they have know how in eastern tradition they have this concept of Satori like in Buddhism this concept of Satori like in Buddhism this concept of Satori like in Buddhism and Buddhism you have this Satori which and Buddhism you have this Satori which and Buddhism you have this Satori which is enlightenment is enlightenment is enlightenment and so the various reports of

and so the various reports of and so the various reports of Buddhist monks or Buddhist Masters who Buddhist monks or Buddhist Masters who Buddhist monks or Buddhist Masters who have had experience Satori have had experience Satori have had experience Satori but they say you can't but they say you can't but they say you can't you can't uh do it by will you cannot you can't uh do it by will you cannot you can't uh do it by will you cannot make it happen make it happen make it happen if anything you have to relax to let it if anything you have to relax to let it if anything you have to relax to let it come to you you know it's kind of like come to you you know it's kind of like come to you you know it's kind of like that it's kind of like that so I think that what matters I think that what matters but you say how to think the point is but you say how to think the point is but you say how to think the point is that we're talking about such an that we're talking about such an that we're talking about such an esoteric area is really esoteric area esoteric area is really esoteric area esoteric area is really esoteric area it's really strange subject where you it's really strange subject where you it's really strange subject where you try to try to try to to fit everything to fit everything to fit everything in this very very stringent set of rules in this very very stringent set of rules in this very very stringent set of rules those rules isn't it basically the the those rules isn't it basically the the those rules isn't it basically the the pure the hardest manifestation of a pure the hardest manifestation of a pure the hardest manifestation of a puzzle that we're all solving in puzzle that we're all solving in puzzle that we're all solving in different other disciplines but this is different other disciplines but this is different other disciplines but this is the the hardest puzzle yes and no the the hardest puzzle yes and no the the hardest puzzle yes and no because there is just a different because there is just a different because there is just a different for instance there is a different for instance there is a different for instance there is a different Criterion for what constitutes progress Criterion for what constitutes progress Criterion for what constitutes progress for instance physics for instance physics for instance physics a lot of arguments they make they are a lot of arguments they make they are a lot of arguments they make they are not rigors from mathematical perspective not rigors from mathematical perspective not rigors from mathematical perspective it is kind of an intuitive argument we it is kind of an intuitive argument we it is kind of an intuitive argument we think it is like this and this is think it is like this and this is think it is like this and this is acceptable in the subject for a good acceptable in the subject for a good acceptable in the subject for a good reason and on the so there is some play reason and on the so there is some play reason and on the so there is some play it's more it's more like human activity it's more it's more like human activity it's more it's more like human activity day-to-day activity like for instance if day-to-day activity like for instance if day-to-day activity like for instance if you and I discuss something you have an you and I discuss something you have an you and I discuss something you have an idea and I have an idea and we argue idea and I have an idea and we argue idea and I have an idea and we argue about it and something seems more about it and something seems more about it and something seems more plausible plausible plausible something seems less plausible and so we something seems less plausible and so we something seems less plausible and so we made decide to take this point of view made decide to take this point of view made decide to take this point of view of that point of view as a provisional of that point of view as a provisional of that point of view as a provisional sort of like

sort of like sort of like point of view and go with it in point of view and go with it in point of view and go with it in mathematics it doesn't work this way you mathematics it doesn't work this way you mathematics it doesn't work this way you either prove it or you don't either prove it or you don't either prove it or you don't and oftentimes and oftentimes and oftentimes you get to the point where there is this you get to the point where there is this you get to the point where there is this much you need to prove and it just it much you need to prove and it just it much you need to prove and it just it just wouldn't it wouldn't come to you just wouldn't it wouldn't come to you just wouldn't it wouldn't come to you and you just don't see it and it can and you just don't see it and it can and you just don't see it and it can have it can go on for months have it can go on for months have it can go on for months super frustrating but without it it is super frustrating but without it it is super frustrating but without it it is it is nothing kind of you know I would it is nothing kind of you know I would it is nothing kind of you know I would love to hear your opinion uh to the love to hear your opinion uh to the love to hear your opinion uh to the degree that you know it um of the proof degree that you know it um of the proof degree that you know it um of the proof of her mouth's Last Theorem by Andrew of her mouth's Last Theorem by Andrew of her mouth's Last Theorem by Andrew Wiles which seems to have this element Wiles which seems to have this element Wiles which seems to have this element perhaps for years to the degree that you perhaps for years to the degree that you perhaps for years to the degree that you know perhaps can you explain from know perhaps can you explain from know perhaps can you explain from azler's theorem and what your thoughts azler's theorem and what your thoughts azler's theorem and what your thoughts are in the process that Andrew Wells are in the process that Andrew Wells are in the process that Andrew Wells took that seemed to at least for my sort took that seemed to at least for my sort took that seemed to at least for my sort of romantic perspective seemed to be of romantic perspective seemed to be of romantic perspective seemed to be very lonely yes very lonely yes very lonely yes it's a lovely profession it's a lovely profession it's a lovely profession and hopeless and and uh and hopeless and and uh and hopeless and and uh and sort of the pro you put it really and sort of the pro you put it really and sort of the pro you put it really nicely because it's it feels like nicely because it's it feels like nicely because it's it feels like there's a lot of moments where you feel there's a lot of moments where you feel there's a lot of moments where you feel like you're close you feel like 19 is like you're close you feel like 19 is like you're close you feel like 19 is done yeah and there is this one stubborn done yeah and there is this one stubborn done yeah and there is this one stubborn thing thing thing which just does not compute you know which just does not compute you know which just does not compute you know doesn't happen and you're trying to find doesn't happen and you're trying to find doesn't happen and you're trying to find that push for this last link and it that push for this last link and it that push for this last link and it could take and nobody knows how long could take and nobody knows how long could take and nobody knows how long it's going to take would it be useful to it's going to take would it be useful to it's going to take would it be useful to maybe try to explain from us Last maybe try to explain from us Last maybe try to explain from us Last Theorem sure it's easy to do

it it empty missed I think I always think that empty missed I think I always think that empty missed I think I always think that everything can be explained you know everything can be explained you know everything can be explained you know even though I say that not everything even though I say that not everything even though I say that not everything can be explained but in in mathematics can be explained but in in mathematics can be explained but in in mathematics you know within this particular you know within this particular you know within this particular framework I think that I always feel framework I think that I always feel framework I think that I always feel optimistic when people ask me to explain optimistic when people ask me to explain optimistic when people ask me to explain something I I always start with the something I I always start with the something I I always start with the assumption that they will understand yes assumption that they will understand yes assumption that they will understand yes you know you know you know so so so let's try let's try let's try uh ferma's last ethereum one of the uh ferma's last ethereum one of the uh ferma's last ethereum one of the jewels jewels jewels sort of of mathematics of all time sort of of mathematics of all time sort of of mathematics of all time a beautiful story also behind it Pierre a beautiful story also behind it Pierre a beautiful story also behind it Pierre Verma a great French mathematician who Verma a great French mathematician who Verma a great French mathematician who lived in the beginning of mostly worked lived in the beginning of mostly worked lived in the beginning of mostly worked at the beginning of uh what 17th century at the beginning of uh what 17th century at the beginning of uh what 17th century and uh he actually has to his credit a and uh he actually has to his credit a and uh he actually has to his credit a number of important contributions but number of important contributions but number of important contributions but the most famous is called firma's last the most famous is called firma's last the most famous is called firma's last ethereum or repairman's great ethereum ethereum or repairman's great ethereum ethereum or repairman's great ethereum and the reason why it became so famous and the reason why it became so famous and the reason why it became so famous is in part because he actually claimed is in part because he actually claimed is in part because he actually claimed to have proved it himself and he did it to have proved it himself and he did it to have proved it himself and he did it on a margin of a of a book that he was on a margin of a of a book that he was on a margin of a of a book that he was reading which was a actually important reading which was a actually important reading which was a actually important book by diafantos about book by diafantos about book by diafantos about equations with coefficients and whole equations with coefficients and whole equations with coefficients and whole numbers numbers numbers and he wrote on the margin literally and he wrote on the margin literally and he wrote on the margin literally I this equation you know this problem I this equation you know this problem I this equation you know this problem which I will explain in a moment which I will explain in a moment which I will explain in a moment um I have solved it I have found a proof um I have solved it I have found a proof um I have solved it I have found a proof but this margin is too small to contain but this margin is too small to contain but this margin is too small to contain it it it at some point I I give I was given a at some point I I give I was given a at some point I I give I was given a public talk about this and I made it as

public talk about this and I made it as public talk about this and I made it as a joke I made a tweet in which I wrote a joke I made a tweet in which I wrote a joke I made a tweet in which I wrote that I have proved this theorem but 280 that I have proved this theorem but 280 that I have proved this theorem but 280 characters are not enough and the kind characters are not enough and the kind characters are not enough and the kind of customer admit sentence yeah so this of customer admit sentence yeah so this of customer admit sentence yeah so this was 17th century Twitter style proof was 17th century Twitter style proof was 17th century Twitter style proof okay but a lot of mathematicians took it okay but a lot of mathematicians took it okay but a lot of mathematicians took it seriously because he had great seriously because he had great seriously because he had great credibility he did made did make some credibility he did made did make some credibility he did made did make some major contributions major contributions major contributions and the search was on so for 350 years and the search was on so for 350 years and the search was on so for 350 years about about about 350 years 350 years 350 years um it remained um it remained um it remained unproved with many people trying unproved with many people trying unproved with many people trying and failing until in 1994 and failing until in 1994 and failing until in 1994 and that no in 1993 Andrew Wiles and that no in 1993 Andrew Wiles and that no in 1993 Andrew Wiles announced a mathematician from Princeton announced a mathematician from Princeton announced a mathematician from Princeton University announced the proof and it University announced the proof and it University announced the proof and it was very exciting because he was one of was very exciting because he was one of was very exciting because he was one of the top number theorists in the world the top number theorists in the world the top number theorists in the world and unfortunately about a year later a and unfortunately about a year later a and unfortunately about a year later a gap was found so that's exactly what we gap was found so that's exactly what we gap was found so that's exactly what we were talking about earlier you have 99 were talking about earlier you have 99 were talking about earlier you have 99 of the proof this one little thing does of the proof this one little thing does of the proof this one little thing does not quite connect and this nullifies the not quite connect and this nullifies the not quite connect and this nullifies the whole thing even though well you could whole thing even though well you could whole thing even though well you could say there's some interesting ideas but say there's some interesting ideas but say there's some interesting ideas but it's not the same as actually having a it's not the same as actually having a it's not the same as actually having a proof so he apparently was really proof so he apparently was really proof so he apparently was really frustrated and he was really a lot of frustrated and he was really a lot of frustrated and he was really a lot of people thought that it's going to be people thought that it's going to be people thought that it's going to be another 100 years or whatever another 100 years or whatever another 100 years or whatever and then luckily he was able to enlist and then luckily he was able to enlist and then luckily he was able to enlist with with the help assistance with of with with the help assistance with of with with the help assistance with of his a former student also great number his a former student also great number his a former student also great number theorist Richard Taylor they were able theorist Richard Taylor they were able theorist Richard Taylor they were able to do that one percent so to speak well to do that one percent so to speak well to do that one percent so to speak well some people might say it maybe not one

some people might say it maybe not one some people might say it maybe not one but five percent or whatever but it but five percent or whatever but it but five percent or whatever but it definitely was an important ingredient definitely was an important ingredient definitely was an important ingredient but it was not he had a sort of like a but it was not he had a sort of like a but it was not he had a sort of like a big new big new big new set of ideas and this one thing didn't set of ideas and this one thing didn't set of ideas and this one thing didn't pan out they were able to close it with pan out they were able to close it with pan out they were able to close it with Taylor and in it finally was published Taylor and in it finally was published Taylor and in it finally was published and I think was accepted and the and I think was accepted and the and I think was accepted and the refereed in 95 and since it's believed refereed in 95 and since it's believed refereed in 95 and since it's believed to be correct to be correct to be correct now uh what he proved actually was not now uh what he proved actually was not now uh what he proved actually was not verma's theorem itself verma's theorem itself verma's theorem itself but a certain statement which is called but a certain statement which is called but a certain statement which is called shimurtaniam away conjecture named after shimurtaniam away conjecture named after shimurtaniam away conjecture named after three mathematicians to Japanese three mathematicians to Japanese three mathematicians to Japanese mathematicians and one French porn mathematicians and one French porn mathematicians and one French porn mathematician who works and also the mathematician who works and also the mathematician who works and also the institute for advanced study in in in institute for advanced study in in in institute for advanced study in in in Princeton Princeton Princeton and it was my colleague at UC Berkeley and it was my colleague at UC Berkeley and it was my colleague at UC Berkeley Ken ribbett who in the 80s connected the Ken ribbett who in the 80s connected the Ken ribbett who in the 80s connected the two problems so this is how it often two problems so this is how it often two problems so this is how it often Works in mathematics you want to prove Works in mathematics you want to prove Works in mathematics you want to prove statement a statement a statement a instead you prove that a is equivalent instead you prove that a is equivalent instead you prove that a is equivalent to B to B to B so after that if you can prove B this so after that if you can prove B this so after that if you can prove B this would automatically imply that a is would automatically imply that a is would automatically imply that a is correct this will happen here a waslas correct this will happen here a waslas correct this will happen here a waslas theorem B was simultaneous conjecture theorem B was simultaneous conjecture theorem B was simultaneous conjecture and that's what and that's what and that's what Andrew Wiles and Richard Taylor really Andrew Wiles and Richard Taylor really Andrew Wiles and Richard Taylor really proved so it requires to get to firma's proved so it requires to get to firma's proved so it requires to get to firma's Last Theorem it requires that bridge Last Theorem it requires that bridge Last Theorem it requires that bridge which was established by my colleague which was established by my colleague which was established by my colleague Ken Ribbit at UC Burke so now what is Ken Ribbit at UC Burke so now what is Ken Ribbit at UC Burke so now what is the statement of Herman's Last Theorem the statement of Herman's Last Theorem the statement of Herman's Last Theorem um um um let me start with Pythagoras since we let me start with Pythagoras since we let me start with Pythagoras since we already talked about it let me start already talked about it let me start already talked about it let me start with Pythagoras ethereum which describes with Pythagoras ethereum which describes with Pythagoras ethereum which describes the right triangles so what is the right

the right triangles so what is the right the right triangles so what is the right triangle it's a triangle in which one of triangle it's a triangle in which one of triangle it's a triangle in which one of the angles is 90 degrees like this so it the angles is 90 degrees like this so it the angles is 90 degrees like this so it has three sides the longer side is has three sides the longer side is has three sides the longer side is called hypotenuse called hypotenuse called hypotenuse and then there's two other sides so if and then there's two other sides so if and then there's two other sides so if we denote the high points the lengths of we denote the high points the lengths of we denote the high points the lengths of hypotenuse by Z and the two other sides hypotenuse by Z and the two other sides hypotenuse by Z and the two other sides X and Y X and Y X and Y then Z squared is equal to x squared then Z squared is equal to x squared then Z squared is equal to x squared plus y squared plus y squared plus y squared so that's the equation or x squared plus so that's the equation or x squared plus so that's the equation or x squared plus y squared equals z squared y squared equals z squared y squared equals z squared and it turns out this equation and it turns out this equation and it turns out this equation has Solutions in natural numbers has Solutions in natural numbers has Solutions in natural numbers main is actually infinitely many main is actually infinitely many main is actually infinitely many solutions in natural numbers solutions in natural numbers solutions in natural numbers for example if x is you take x equals for example if x is you take x equals for example if x is you take x equals three three three y equals 4 and Z equals 5. y equals 4 and Z equals 5. y equals 4 and Z equals 5. then they solve this equation because 3 then they solve this equation because 3 then they solve this equation because 3 3 squared is nine 3 squared is nine 3 squared is nine 4 squared is 16. 4 squared is 16. 4 squared is 16. 9 plus 16 25. and that's 5 squared 9 plus 16 25. and that's 5 squared 9 plus 16 25. and that's 5 squared so x squared plus y squared equals z so x squared plus y squared equals z so x squared plus y squared equals z squared is solved by x equals three y squared is solved by x equals three y squared is solved by x equals three y equals four is equals five and there are equals four is equals five and there are equals four is equals five and there are many other Solutions of that nature and many other Solutions of that nature and many other Solutions of that nature and we should say the natural numbers are we should say the natural numbers are we should say the natural numbers are whole numbers that are non-negative whole numbers that are non-negative whole numbers that are non-negative that's right one two three four five six that's right one two three four five six that's right one two three four five six and so on now what's verma's Last and so on now what's verma's Last and so on now what's verma's Last Theorem Firma asked what about what will Theorem Firma asked what about what will Theorem Firma asked what about what will happen if we replace squares by cubes happen if we replace squares by cubes happen if we replace squares by cubes for example so X Cube plus y Cube equals for example so X Cube plus y Cube equals for example so X Cube plus y Cube equals z Cube z Cube z Cube are there any solutions in

are there any solutions in are there any solutions in what do you call natural numbers what do you call natural numbers what do you call natural numbers it turns out there are none it turns out there are none it turns out there are none what about fourth powers what about fourth powers what about fourth powers again none well it seems like none right again none well it seems like none right again none well it seems like none right so that was that was a statement so the so that was that was a statement so the so that was that was a statement so the theorem says that the equation x cubed theorem says that the equation x cubed theorem says that the equation x cubed plus y cubed equals e cubed has no plus y cubed equals e cubed has no plus y cubed equals e cubed has no Solutions in natural numbers Solutions in natural numbers Solutions in natural numbers uh remember natural means positive whole uh remember natural means positive whole uh remember natural means positive whole numbers so of course there's a trivial numbers so of course there's a trivial numbers so of course there's a trivial solution zero zero zero so that this solution zero zero zero so that this solution zero zero zero so that this works but you need all of them to be works but you need all of them to be works but you need all of them to be positive positive positive x to the fourth plus y to the fourth x to the fourth plus y to the fourth x to the fourth plus y to the fourth equals z to the fourth also has no equals z to the fourth also has no equals z to the fourth also has no Solutions Solutions Solutions uh x to the fifth plus y to the fifth uh x to the fifth plus y to the fifth uh x to the fifth plus y to the fifth equals e to the fifth no Solutions so equals e to the fifth no Solutions so equals e to the fifth no Solutions so you kind of see the trend you kind of see the trend you kind of see the trend x to the N plus y to the N plus equals z x to the N plus y to the N plus equals z x to the N plus y to the N plus equals z to the N if n is greater than two to the N if n is greater than two to the N if n is greater than two has no Solutions in natural numbers that has no Solutions in natural numbers that has no Solutions in natural numbers that is a statement of therma's last year is a statement of therma's last year is a statement of therma's last year deceptively simple as far as famous deceptively simple as far as famous deceptively simple as far as famous theorems are concerned you don't need to theorems are concerned you don't need to theorems are concerned you don't need to know anything beyond standard know anything beyond standard know anything beyond standard charismatic addition and multiplication charismatic addition and multiplication charismatic addition and multiplication of natural numbers of natural numbers of natural numbers that's why a lot of people that's why a lot of people that's why a lot of people both both both Specialists and amateurs Specialists and amateurs Specialists and amateurs try to prove it so because it's so easy try to prove it so because it's so easy try to prove it so because it's so easy so that is so easy to formulate so that is so easy to formulate so that is so easy to formulate so in fact I think Therma proved the so in fact I think Therma proved the so in fact I think Therma proved the case of Cubes I think he did actually case of Cubes I think he did actually case of Cubes I think he did actually prove some elsewhere in the case of prove some elsewhere in the case of prove some elsewhere in the case of Cubes but so it remained like four there Cubes but so it remained like four there Cubes but so it remained like four there are infinitely many cases right you have are infinitely many cases right you have are infinitely many cases right you have to even if you prove it for cubes and

to even if you prove it for cubes and to even if you prove it for cubes and for fourth power and fifth then still for fourth power and fifth then still for fourth power and fifth then still there's six sevens and so on the there's six sevens and so on the there's six sevens and so on the infinitely made cases in which it has to infinitely made cases in which it has to infinitely made cases in which it has to be proved be proved be proved and so you see and so you see and so you see um the separated simple result took 350 um the separated simple result took 350 um the separated simple result took 350 years to prove years to prove years to prove and you know but in a sense it's like and you know but in a sense it's like and you know but in a sense it's like mathematicians you know you would think mathematicians you know you would think mathematicians you know you would think mathematics is such as sterile mathematics is such as sterile mathematics is such as sterile profession everybody's so serious you profession everybody's so serious you profession everybody's so serious you know almost like we're all wearing like know almost like we're all wearing like know almost like we're all wearing like lab coats and like take an elevator to lab coats and like take an elevator to lab coats and like take an elevator to the to the every Tower and however look the to the every Tower and however look the to the every Tower and however look at all this drama at all this drama at all this drama look at all these dramas like we also look at all these dramas like we also look at all these dramas like we also like drama we also have narratives we like drama we also have narratives we like drama we also have narratives we also have our myths also have our myths also have our myths here is the guy is the 16th century here is the guy is the 16th century here is the guy is the 16th century mathematician or 17th century mathematician or 17th century mathematician or 17th century mathematician who lives a note on the mathematician who lives a note on the mathematician who lives a note on the margin and motivates others to find the margin and motivates others to find the margin and motivates others to find the proof then how many cards were broken proof then how many cards were broken proof then how many cards were broken that they believed that they found the that they believed that they found the that they believed that they found the proof and then later it was realized proof and then later it was realized proof and then later it was realized that the proof was incorrect and so on that the proof was incorrect and so on that the proof was incorrect and so on and brings us to modern day and one last and brings us to modern day and one last and brings us to modern day and one last attempt and reviles who is very serious attempt and reviles who is very serious attempt and reviles who is very serious and respected and esteemed mathematician and respected and esteemed mathematician and respected and esteemed mathematician announces the proof only to be faced announces the proof only to be faced announces the proof only to be faced with the same reality of his hopes with the same reality of his hopes with the same reality of his hopes dashed seemingly dashed and like there dashed seemingly dashed and like there dashed seemingly dashed and like there is a mistake it doesn't work and then to is a mistake it doesn't work and then to is a mistake it doesn't work and then to be able to recover a year later how much be able to recover a year later how much be able to recover a year later how much drama in this one story it's amazing but drama in this one story it's amazing but drama in this one story it's amazing but from what you understand for what you from what you understand for what you from what you understand for what you know what was the process for him know what was the process for him know what was the process for him that uh that is similar perhaps your own that uh that is similar perhaps your own that uh that is similar perhaps your own life of of of walking along with the

life of of of walking along with the life of of of walking along with the problem for months problem for months problem for months not years yes so he worked he has given not years yes so he worked he has given not years yes so he worked he has given interviews about it afterwards so we interviews about it afterwards so we interviews about it afterwards so we know that he described his process know that he described his process know that he described his process that number one he did not want to tell that number one he did not want to tell that number one he did not want to tell anybody anybody anybody because he was afraid that people find because he was afraid that people find because he was afraid that people find out that he's working on it out that he's working on it out that he's working on it because he's was such a top level because he's was such a top level because he's was such a top level mathematician mathematician mathematician people would guess that he has some idea people would guess that he has some idea people would guess that he has some idea that there is some idea so you know that there is some idea so you know that there is some idea so you know if you just know that somebody's has an if you just know that somebody's has an if you just know that somebody's has an idea this already gives you a great idea this already gives you a great idea this already gives you a great boost of confidence right so he didn't boost of confidence right so he didn't boost of confidence right so he didn't want people to have that information so want people to have that information so want people to have that information so he didn't tell anybody that he was he didn't tell anybody that he was he didn't tell anybody that he was working on it number one be lonely working on it number one be lonely working on it number one be lonely number two he worked on it for seven number two he worked on it for seven number two he worked on it for seven years if I remember correctly by himself years if I remember correctly by himself years if I remember correctly by himself and and and then then he he thought he had it and he then then he he thought he had it and he then then he he thought he had it and he was elated obviously he was you know was elated obviously he was you know was elated obviously he was you know very happy and he announced it at the very happy and he announced it at the very happy and he announced it at the conference I think it was in Cambridge conference I think it was in Cambridge conference I think it was in Cambridge University or Oxford University in the University or Oxford University in the University or Oxford University in the UK in 1993 I believe UK in 1993 I believe UK in 1993 I believe so so so you know you know you know this this this is really interesting because all of us is really interesting because all of us is really interesting because all of us we can really all weapons can relate to we can really all weapons can relate to we can really all weapons can relate to this because I I remember very well my this because I I remember very well my this because I I remember very well my first problem how I solved my first first problem how I solved my first first problem how I solved my first problem problem problem uh I described it in 11 math in my book uh I described it in 11 math in my book uh I described it in 11 math in my book so so so uh it was I was how old was I I was 18 uh it was I was how old was I I was 18 uh it was I was how old was I I was 18 years old I was a student in Moscow

years old I was a student in Moscow years old I was a student in Moscow and I was just I just lucked out that I and I was just I just lucked out that I and I was just I just lucked out that I was introduced to this great was introduced to this great was introduced to this great mathematician since I you know I was not mathematician since I you know I was not mathematician since I you know I was not studying at Moscow University because of studying at Moscow University because of studying at Moscow University because of anti-Semitism in the Soviet Union so I anti-Semitism in the Soviet Union so I anti-Semitism in the Soviet Union so I was in this technical school but I was was in this technical school but I was was in this technical school but I was lucky that I had a mathematician who lucky that I had a mathematician who lucky that I had a mathematician who took me under his wing took me under his wing took me under his wing and Dmitry Fox who actually and Dmitry Fox who actually and Dmitry Fox who actually later came to the to the US and he's later came to the to the US and he's later came to the to the US and he's still a professor at the UC Davis still a professor at the UC Davis still a professor at the UC Davis not so far from from me not so far from from me not so far from from me uh so he gave me this problem and uh so he gave me this problem and uh so he gave me this problem and it was rather technical so I will not it was rather technical so I will not it was rather technical so I will not try to describe it but I do remember how try to describe it but I do remember how try to describe it but I do remember how much uh effort you know the that much uh effort you know the that much uh effort you know the that excitement but also kind of a fear what excitement but also kind of a fear what excitement but also kind of a fear what if I don't have what it takes you know I if I don't have what it takes you know I if I don't have what it takes you know I lost sleep so this was one one lost sleep so this was one one lost sleep so this was one one consequence of this consequence of this consequence of this I for the first time in my life I had I for the first time in my life I had I for the first time in my life I had trouble falling asleep and this actually trouble falling asleep and this actually trouble falling asleep and this actually stayed for a couple years afterwards so stayed for a couple years afterwards so stayed for a couple years afterwards so then it was kind of like a wake-up call then it was kind of like a wake-up call then it was kind of like a wake-up call that I should be to take care of myself that I should be to take care of myself that I should be to take care of myself not work too late and so on so that was not work too late and so on so that was not work too late and so on so that was sort of like that experience and I was sort of like that experience and I was sort of like that experience and I was lucky that I was able to find a solution lucky that I was able to find a solution lucky that I was able to find a solution number one within two months Maybe number one within two months Maybe number one within two months Maybe and it was very it was surprising and it and it was very it was surprising and it and it was very it was surprising and it was beautiful like it the answer was was was beautiful like it the answer was was was beautiful like it the answer was was in terms of some something which seemed in terms of some something which seemed in terms of some something which seemed to be from A Different World from a to be from A Different World from a to be from A Different World from a different area of mathematics different area of mathematics different area of mathematics so it's very happy but I do remember so it's very happy but I do remember so it's very happy but I do remember this more this moment when suddenly you this more this moment when suddenly you this more this moment when suddenly you see that see that see that it's like you in this case it was it's like you in this case it was it's like you in this case it was literally I had to compile these literally I had to compile these literally I had to compile these diagrams with what mathematicians call

diagrams with what mathematicians call diagrams with what mathematicians call homology groups and spectral sequences homology groups and spectral sequences homology groups and spectral sequences and manually calculate some some numbers and manually calculate some some numbers and manually calculate some some numbers and trying to discern some system in it and trying to discern some system in it and trying to discern some system in it and suddenly I saw that how they all and suddenly I saw that how they all and suddenly I saw that how they all were governed by this one one force so were governed by this one one force so were governed by this one one force so to speak one pattern and that was to speak one pattern and that was to speak one pattern and that was absolutely wow so it's like I mean what absolutely wow so it's like I mean what absolutely wow so it's like I mean what was it so you're sitting there at a desk was it so you're sitting there at a desk was it so you're sitting there at a desk actually you know I lived in a town actually you know I lived in a town actually you know I lived in a town outside of Moscow so I used to take I outside of Moscow so I used to take I outside of Moscow so I used to take I would take a train to Moscow so it's would take a train to Moscow so it's would take a train to Moscow so it's what we call in Russia electric you know what we call in Russia electric you know what we call in Russia electric you know like this electric train which was super like this electric train which was super like this electric train which was super slow it took more than two hours to slow it took more than two hours to slow it took more than two hours to cover that distance and I think that the cover that distance and I think that the cover that distance and I think that the crucial Insight came when I was in this crucial Insight came when I was in this crucial Insight came when I was in this and I just I was I had to contain myself and I just I was I had to contain myself and I just I was I had to contain myself so I don't start screaming you know so I don't start screaming you know so I don't start screaming you know because there were other passengers in because there were other passengers in because there were other passengers in the car so I was sitting there and the car so I was sitting there and the car so I was sitting there and staring at this paper so you know what I staring at this paper so you know what I staring at this paper so you know what I remember that what came to me remember that what came to me remember that what came to me I have something now I have something now I have something now which nobody else in the world has I which nobody else in the world has I which nobody else in the world has I have a proof of first of all I did not have a proof of first of all I did not have a proof of first of all I did not it was not just the proof like in the it was not just the proof like in the it was not just the proof like in the case of Irma the statement is already case of Irma the statement is already case of Irma the statement is already made that's why it's called conjecture made that's why it's called conjecture made that's why it's called conjecture you know you make a statement you don't you know you make a statement you don't you know you make a statement you don't have a proof yet then you try to prove have a proof yet then you try to prove have a proof yet then you try to prove it in my case I did not know what the it in my case I did not know what the it in my case I did not know what the answer would be there was a type of answer would be there was a type of answer would be there was a type of question where the answer was unknown so question where the answer was unknown so question where the answer was unknown so I had to find the answer and prove it I had to find the answer and prove it I had to find the answer and prove it and the answer was very nice so nobody and the answer was very nice so nobody and the answer was very nice so nobody knew as far as I could tell nobody knew knew as far as I could tell nobody knew knew as far as I could tell nobody knew because my teacher told me that he because my teacher told me that he because my teacher told me that he explored all the literature and this was explored all the literature and this was explored all the literature and this was not known so this was

not known so this was not known so this was suddenly I felt that I was in possession suddenly I felt that I was in possession suddenly I felt that I was in possession of this of this of this now it was a little thing it was not now it was a little thing it was not now it was a little thing it was not cured for cancer you know it was not cured for cancer you know it was not cured for cancer you know it was not a large language model you know but it a large language model you know but it a large language model you know but it was something undeniably real meaningful was something undeniably real meaningful was something undeniably real meaningful and it was mine kind of you know like I and it was mine kind of you know like I and it was mine kind of you know like I had it nobody else I had not published had it nobody else I had not published had it nobody else I had not published it I didn't even tell I hadn't even told it I didn't even tell I hadn't even told it I didn't even tell I hadn't even told anybody and it is a very strange feeling anybody and it is a very strange feeling anybody and it is a very strange feeling you know to have to have that were you you know to have to have that were you you know to have to have that were you worried that this treasure could be worried that this treasure could be worried that this treasure could be stolen stolen stolen not at the time not at the time so later not at the time not at the time so later not at the time not at the time so later on there were situations where I was on there were situations where I was on there were situations where I was exposed to that those type of exposed to that those type of exposed to that those type of experiences but at that time I didn't experiences but at that time I didn't experiences but at that time I didn't think of that I was still this think of that I was still this think of that I was still this starry-eyed kid you know who was just starry-eyed kid you know who was just starry-eyed kid you know who was just obsessed with mathematics with his obsessed with mathematics with his obsessed with mathematics with his Beauty and Discovery discovering those Beauty and Discovery discovering those Beauty and Discovery discovering those beautiful facts beautiful results so I beautiful facts beautiful results so I beautiful facts beautiful results so I didn't think about I didn't even think didn't think about I didn't even think didn't think about I didn't even think that it could be possible that somebody that it could be possible that somebody that it could be possible that somebody could steal it or whatever uh I just could steal it or whatever uh I just could steal it or whatever uh I just wanted to share it with my teacher as wanted to share it with my teacher as wanted to share it with my teacher as soon as possible you know and and he he soon as possible you know and and he he soon as possible you know and and he he understood quickly and he's like yeah understood quickly and he's like yeah understood quickly and he's like yeah good job you know good job you know good job you know is there some something you can give is there some something you can give is there some something you can give color to the drama Erica's talk Eric color to the drama Erica's talk Eric color to the drama Erica's talk Eric Weinstein has spoken about some of the Weinstein has spoken about some of the Weinstein has spoken about some of the challenges some of the triumphs and challenges some of the triumphs and challenges some of the triumphs and challenges of his time at Harvard so is there some something to that drama of is there some something to that drama of people stealing each other's ideas or people stealing each other's ideas or people stealing each other's ideas or not allocating credit enough oh sure yes not allocating credit enough oh sure yes not allocating credit enough oh sure yes um all of that and and creating

um all of that and and creating um all of that and and creating psychological stressors because of that psychological stressors because of that psychological stressors because of that yes unfortunately on young minds and so yes unfortunately on young minds and so yes unfortunately on young minds and so on could have a very bad effect is that on could have a very bad effect is that on could have a very bad effect is that just the way of life or is this just the way of life or is this just the way of life or is this um I think we can definitely do better um I think we can definitely do better um I think we can definitely do better and I think the first step is to kind of and I think the first step is to kind of and I think the first step is to kind of admit that we are not 100 Seekers of admit that we are not 100 Seekers of admit that we are not 100 Seekers of truth that we are human beings and all truth that we are human beings and all truth that we are human beings and all the the the The Good and Bad and The Ugly The Good and Bad and The Ugly The Good and Bad and The Ugly qualities qualities qualities um can be present and to have some kind um can be present and to have some kind um can be present and to have some kind of dialogue in my subject in mathematics of dialogue in my subject in mathematics of dialogue in my subject in mathematics this has not happened yet there have this has not happened yet there have this has not happened yet there have been some famous cases where people have been some famous cases where people have been some famous cases where people have been accused which had been resolved or been accused which had been resolved or been accused which had been resolved or partially resolved or unresolved partially resolved or unresolved partially resolved or unresolved and uh everybody knows it but there and uh everybody knows it but there and uh everybody knows it but there isn't a systematic effort as far as I isn't a systematic effort as far as I isn't a systematic effort as far as I can tell of really trying to create some can tell of really trying to create some can tell of really trying to create some rules some ethics rules this is this is rules some ethics rules this is this is rules some ethics rules this is this is fair game this is not fair game so that fair game this is not fair game so that fair game this is not fair game so that as a community we strive to get better as a community we strive to get better as a community we strive to get better I think that for most people it's more I think that for most people it's more I think that for most people it's more like keeping your head in the sand and like keeping your head in the sand and like keeping your head in the sand and kind of pretending that it doesn't kind of pretending that it doesn't kind of pretending that it doesn't happen or it happens some isolated happen or it happens some isolated happen or it happens some isolated incidents well I don't my experience is incidents well I don't my experience is incidents well I don't my experience is not like that at all I think it does not like that at all I think it does not like that at all I think it does happen much more often than it should happen much more often than it should happen much more often than it should that's my opinion uh so there's the pool that's my opinion uh so there's the pool that's my opinion uh so there's the pool of Academia is fascinating one of the of Academia is fascinating one of the of Academia is fascinating one of the reasons I really love it is you have reasons I really love it is you have reasons I really love it is you have young minds with fresh ideas young minds with fresh ideas young minds with fresh ideas and that that same innocence you had and that that same innocence you had and that that same innocence you had with when you're first on the train have

with when you're first on the train have with when you're first on the train have that brilliant breakthrough and then you that brilliant breakthrough and then you that brilliant breakthrough and then you throw that in together with senior throw that in together with senior throw that in together with senior exceptional world-class scientists who exceptional world-class scientists who exceptional world-class scientists who have first of all are getting older um second of all maybe they have um second of all maybe they have partaken in the drug of Fame and money partaken in the drug of Fame and money partaken in the drug of Fame and money and status and recognition so that and status and recognition so that and status and recognition so that starts to a little bit corrupt all of starts to a little bit corrupt all of starts to a little bit corrupt all of our human minds and you throw that mix our human minds and you throw that mix our human minds and you throw that mix in together yeah in together yeah in together yeah mostly without rules mostly without rules mostly without rules and uh is beautiful because that's where and uh is beautiful because that's where and uh is beautiful because that's where the ideas of old the ideas of old the ideas of old contend with the the new wild-eyed crazy contend with the the new wild-eyed crazy contend with the the new wild-eyed crazy ideas and they clash and there's a ideas and they clash and there's a ideas and they clash and there's a tension and it's there's a dance to it tension and it's there's a dance to it tension and it's there's a dance to it but then there's the old human but then there's the old human but then there's the old human corruption that can take advantage of corruption that can take advantage of corruption that can take advantage of the young minds the young minds the young minds it's unclear what to do with that it's unclear what to do with that it's unclear what to do with that I mean part of that is just the way of I mean part of that is just the way of I mean part of that is just the way of life and the strategies life and the strategies life and the strategies um and oftentimes when you look at who um and oftentimes when you look at who um and oftentimes when you look at who wins the Nobel Prize it's also tragic wins the Nobel Prize it's also tragic wins the Nobel Prize it's also tragic because sometimes so many because sometimes so many because sometimes so many minds are like the trajectory to the minds are like the trajectory to the minds are like the trajectory to the Breakthrough idea involves so many Breakthrough idea involves so many Breakthrough idea involves so many different Minds young and old yeah I different Minds young and old yeah I different Minds young and old yeah I mean you're right it's I think it's like you're right it's I think it's like every and there was everything else the every and there was everything else the every and there was everything else the the through the the path is to more the through the the path is to more the through the the path is to more self-awareness and it's like owning up self-awareness and it's like owning up self-awareness and it's like owning up your own your own your own stuff and uh not blaming other people stuff and uh not blaming other people stuff and uh not blaming other people not projecting onto other people but

not projecting onto other people but not projecting onto other people but taking responsibility taking responsibility taking responsibility and that's true for everything and and that's true for everything and and that's true for everything and the problem here unique problem for the problem here unique problem for the problem here unique problem for mathematics I would say physicists and mathematics I would say physicists and mathematics I would say physicists and chemists are better they have they chemists are better they have they chemists are better they have they actually have better sort of ethical actually have better sort of ethical actually have better sort of ethical rules and so on special biologists like rules and so on special biologists like rules and so on special biologists like because I think in part it's because because I think in part it's because because I think in part it's because there is much more money involved there is much more money involved there is much more money involved because they have to get grants and so because they have to get grants and so because they have to get grants and so on so for them the question of priority on so for them the question of priority on so for them the question of priority who discovered what first is much more who discovered what first is much more who discovered what first is much more serious because there's really some serious because there's really some serious because there's really some serious money mathematics who cares you serious money mathematics who cares you serious money mathematics who cares you know that Famous Last Theorem was proved know that Famous Last Theorem was proved know that Famous Last Theorem was proved yeah did Andrew Wells become a yeah did Andrew Wells become a yeah did Andrew Wells become a millionaire no I think they won the millionaire no I think they won the millionaire no I think they won the prize but those prices are not I think prize but those prices are not I think prize but those prices are not I think that one was a big price but uh but in that one was a big price but uh but in that one was a big price but uh but in general there's not going to keep I general there's not going to keep I general there's not going to keep I think he won the Apple price eventually think he won the Apple price eventually think he won the Apple price eventually which is about a million dollars so but which is about a million dollars so but which is about a million dollars so but you know I sometimes I joke about this you know I sometimes I joke about this you know I sometimes I joke about this that this is the hardest way to win a that this is the hardest way to win a that this is the hardest way to win a million dollars million dollars million dollars so you know so you know so you know but amongst mathematicians I think the but amongst mathematicians I think the but amongst mathematicians I think the trouble is that we are so insulated trouble is that we are so insulated trouble is that we are so insulated from a society because it's such a pure from a society because it's such a pure from a society because it's such a pure subject it draws in very specific uh subject it draws in very specific uh subject it draws in very specific uh psychological types and I can speak psychological types and I can speak psychological types and I can speak about myself I did not realize it at the about myself I did not realize it at the about myself I did not realize it at the time but later on I definitely saw I time but later on I definitely saw I time but later on I definitely saw I mentioned some of it earlier that for me mentioned some of it earlier that for me mentioned some of it earlier that for me mathemax was a refuge from the cruelty mathemax was a refuge from the cruelty mathemax was a refuge from the cruelty of the life I experienced from of the life I experienced from of the life I experienced from discrimination that I experienced when I discrimination that I experienced when I discrimination that I experienced when I applied to Moscow University at 16 being applied to Moscow University at 16 being applied to Moscow University at 16 being failed at the exam and stuff like that failed at the exam and stuff like that failed at the exam and stuff like that which I described in my book as well but

which I described in my book as well but which I described in my book as well but um that was my way I was like I don't um that was my way I was like I don't um that was my way I was like I don't trust this world I don't want to deal trust this world I don't want to deal trust this world I don't want to deal with it with it with it I want to hide in this platonic reality I want to hide in this platonic reality I want to hide in this platonic reality of pure forms of pure forms of pure forms this is where I know how to operate I this is where I know how to operate I this is where I know how to operate I love this and and I couldn't be bothered love this and and I couldn't be bothered love this and and I couldn't be bothered in some sense for a while it happened up in some sense for a while it happened up in some sense for a while it happened up to a point as as I was getting older and to a point as as I was getting older and to a point as as I was getting older and more mature I was becoming more and more more mature I was becoming more and more more mature I was becoming more and more interested in other things interested in other things interested in other things but I think that's one of the reasons but I think that's one of the reasons but I think that's one of the reasons and one of them and one of them and one of them reasons why I wrote Love and math reasons why I wrote Love and math reasons why I wrote Love and math was precisely to break that cycle was precisely to break that cycle was precisely to break that cycle that it's it's the quiet guy in the that it's it's the quiet guy in the that it's it's the quiet guy in the corner that goes into math and not the corner that goes into math and not the corner that goes into math and not the flamboyant you know a joke or like you flamboyant you know a joke or like you flamboyant you know a joke or like you know DJ know DJ know DJ I wanted to show I wanted to show I wanted to show uh how beautiful this subject is to uh how beautiful this subject is to uh how beautiful this subject is to attract this new blood so that different attract this new blood so that different attract this new blood so that different psychological types and psychological types and psychological types and more women uh would join because then they would uh would join because then they would have students who would look at them and have students who would look at them and have students who would look at them and whom they will inspire and then it would whom they will inspire and then it would whom they will inspire and then it would be a instead of a vicious circle it be a instead of a vicious circle it be a instead of a vicious circle it would be a virtual Circle and I have to would be a virtual Circle and I have to would be a virtual Circle and I have to say I think it's happening not because say I think it's happening not because say I think it's happening not because of my efforts on alone obviously there of my efforts on alone obviously there of my efforts on alone obviously there are many other messages who are around are many other messages who are around are many other messages who are around the same time started to put more effort the same time started to put more effort the same time started to put more effort because see if the old stereotype of because see if the old stereotype of because see if the old stereotype of mathematician you're so enclosed you're mathematician you're so enclosed you're mathematician you're so enclosed you're not interested in even exposing the not interested in even exposing the not interested in even exposing the beauty of your subject to other people beauty of your subject to other people beauty of your subject to other people you see and then it becomes this vicious

you see and then it becomes this vicious you see and then it becomes this vicious circle circle circle but you know this one day you know I not but you know this one day you know I not but you know this one day you know I not one day all the time I meet I meet these one day all the time I meet I meet these one day all the time I meet I meet these students who say students who say students who say your book is the reason why I chose math your book is the reason why I chose math your book is the reason why I chose math as my major and I am proud especially as my major and I am proud especially as my major and I am proud especially when it's women who tell me this and when it's women who tell me this and when it's women who tell me this and they are cool they are DJs at the same they are cool they are DJs at the same they are cool they are DJs at the same time and they are social and they have time and they are social and they have time and they are social and they have friends and they go out and so on you friends and they go out and so on you friends and they go out and so on you see so they are then they carry the see so they are then they carry the see so they are then they carry the torch because then they will be more torch because then they will be more torch because then they will be more likely likely likely to to to share this beauty with others to attract share this beauty with others to attract share this beauty with others to attract more students and so on so I think this more students and so on so I think this more students and so on so I think this this kind of this dumb was broken so now this kind of this dumb was broken so now this kind of this dumb was broken so now you'll have more influx and once we have you'll have more influx and once we have you'll have more influx and once we have people who are more can able to connect people who are more can able to connect people who are more can able to connect at the personal level that's when we at the personal level that's when we at the personal level that's when we also become more self-aware as a also become more self-aware as a also become more self-aware as a community I think and that's when we community I think and that's when we community I think and that's when we might be we should be able to have a might be we should be able to have a might be we should be able to have a chance to improve in terms of our chance to improve in terms of our chance to improve in terms of our ethical rules and stuff like that ethical rules and stuff like that ethical rules and stuff like that so let me return to our friend Eric so let me return to our friend Eric so let me return to our friend Eric Weinstein for a question that I would Weinstein for a question that I would Weinstein for a question that I would ask anyway but let me let's have a ask anyway but let me let's have a ask anyway but let me let's have a non-russian ask the Russian question non-russian ask the Russian question non-russian ask the Russian question um um um ask him about the Russian concepts of ask him about the Russian concepts of ask him about the Russian concepts of friendship science gender and love friendship science gender and love friendship science gender and love versus the American you can um so there is a there is a deep you can um so there is a there is a deep Romanticism that you have Romanticism that you have Romanticism that you have that runs through your book love and that runs through your book love and that runs through your book love and math math math is is part of that's something you've

is is part of that's something you've is is part of that's something you've picked up from the Russian culture picked up from the Russian culture picked up from the Russian culture what can you speak to that uh fueled what can you speak to that uh fueled what can you speak to that uh fueled both your fascination with math and your both your fascination with math and your both your fascination with math and your fascination no your um fascination no your um fascination no your um your prioritization of The Human your prioritization of The Human your prioritization of The Human Experience of Love hmm good question I Experience of Love hmm good question I Experience of Love hmm good question I definitely there is some influence of definitely there is some influence of definitely there is some influence of the Russian culture Russian literature the Russian culture Russian literature the Russian culture Russian literature perhaps you know perhaps you know perhaps you know but also you know like there's so many but also you know like there's so many but also you know like there's so many things things things um how do you how do we develop certain um how do you how do we develop certain um how do you how do we develop certain sensibilities like why do we care about sensibilities like why do we care about sensibilities like why do we care about this and not that like why do I care for this and not that like why do I care for this and not that like why do I care for instance about like you said instance about like you said instance about like you said about this romantic ideals so to speak about this romantic ideals so to speak about this romantic ideals so to speak of mathematics that's certainly not of mathematics that's certainly not of mathematics that's certainly not something that is automatic you know something that is automatic you know something that is automatic you know some people care about it some people some people care about it some people some people care about it some people don't and I'm not saying it is Superior don't and I'm not saying it is Superior don't and I'm not saying it is Superior or inferior it's just how my composition or inferior it's just how my composition or inferior it's just how my composition my psychological composition is like my psychological composition is like my psychological composition is like that that that and it's an interesting question like what it's an interesting question like what is the cause of it so I think that is the cause of it so I think that is the cause of it so I think that we cannot really know but there are some we cannot really know but there are some we cannot really know but there are some aspects of it of course the experiences aspects of it of course the experiences aspects of it of course the experiences life experiences are life experiences are life experiences are um um um upbringing family like I was you know I upbringing family like I was you know I upbringing family like I was you know I was surrounded by Love by my parents on was surrounded by Love by my parents on was surrounded by Love by my parents on the one hand but in the one on the other the one hand but in the one on the other the one hand but in the one on the other side uh perhaps they were a little side uh perhaps they were a little side uh perhaps they were a little overprotective of me so I was kind of overprotective of me so I was kind of overprotective of me so I was kind of like like like you know you know you know um too much kind of like taking care of um too much kind of like taking care of um too much kind of like taking care of so then when I so then when I so then when I had it develop certain sensitivity but

had it develop certain sensitivity but had it develop certain sensitivity but it was kind of not ready for the it was kind of not ready for the it was kind of not ready for the challenges the real world of the real challenges the real world of the real challenges the real world of the real world so then that struggle and that and world so then that struggle and that and world so then that struggle and that and then being lost then being lost then being lost and then being able to overcome and to and then being able to overcome and to and then being able to overcome and to learn and then if you do in Universe if learn and then if you do in Universe if learn and then if you do in Universe if you don't lose you don't appreciate you don't lose you don't appreciate you don't lose you don't appreciate maybe but sometimes when we lose maybe but sometimes when we lose maybe but sometimes when we lose something and then regain it then we something and then regain it then we something and then regain it then we cherish it we appreciate and then become cherish it we appreciate and then become cherish it we appreciate and then become something important also uh various something important also uh various something important also uh various um difficulties you know the upsetting um difficulties you know the upsetting um difficulties you know the upsetting experiences or one could say traumatic experiences or one could say traumatic experiences or one could say traumatic experiences experiences experiences growing up you know in the Soviet Union growing up you know in the Soviet Union growing up you know in the Soviet Union that was not uh awoken Park you know it that was not uh awoken Park you know it that was not uh awoken Park you know it was there were a lot of issues there was there were a lot of issues there was there were a lot of issues there um that I had to go through and um that I had to go through and um that I had to go through and and then it doesn't break you make you and then it doesn't break you make you and then it doesn't break you make you stronger but in my case what happened was that you know what happened was that you know some for some of it it took me 30 years some for some of it it took me 30 years some for some of it it took me 30 years to really come to terms with it and to to really come to terms with it and to to really come to terms with it and to really understand what happened really understand what happened really understand what happened he gave me this motivation um to to strive to become a um to to strive to become a mathematician which maybe I wouldn't mathematician which maybe I wouldn't mathematician which maybe I wouldn't have otherwise it charged me have otherwise it charged me have otherwise it charged me supercharged me I'm talking about for supercharged me I'm talking about for supercharged me I'm talking about for instance the experience with exam instance the experience with exam instance the experience with exam at Moscow University can you take me at Moscow University can you take me at Moscow University can you take me through that experience so through that experience so through that experience so this is 1984 we spoke about Orwell this is 1984 we spoke about Orwell this is 1984 we spoke about Orwell earlier earlier earlier and and and I was applying to Moscow University

I was applying to Moscow University I was applying to Moscow University mathematics Department it's called mathematics Department it's called mathematics Department it's called Muhammad which is like for people who Muhammad which is like for people who Muhammad which is like for people who don't know like the place was the only don't know like the place was the only don't know like the place was the only place to study pure mathematics in place to study pure mathematics in place to study pure mathematics in Moscow period but also but also Moscow period but also but also Moscow period but also but also interesting one of the great places on interesting one of the great places on interesting one of the great places on Earth and it's like a huge building this Earth and it's like a huge building this Earth and it's like a huge building this you know this monolith of a building of you know this monolith of a building of you know this monolith of a building of Moscow University Moscow University Moscow University so because as I said you know a year so because as I said you know a year so because as I said you know a year earlier evgenie evgeny which converted earlier evgenie evgeny which converted earlier evgenie evgeny which converted me into math capitalizing on my love for me into math capitalizing on my love for me into math capitalizing on my love for physical quantum physics and so we I physical quantum physics and so we I physical quantum physics and so we I spent a whole year studying with him and spent a whole year studying with him and spent a whole year studying with him and I was already kind of at the level of I was already kind of at the level of I was already kind of at the level of you know and some in some subjects a you know and some in some subjects a you know and some in some subjects a level of like early graduate Graduate level of like early graduate Graduate level of like early graduate Graduate Studies Studies Studies so it seemed like it would be a breeze so it seemed like it would be a breeze so it seemed like it would be a breeze to go to get into Moscow University to go to get into Moscow University to go to get into Moscow University but in fact little did I know that uh but in fact little did I know that uh but in fact little did I know that uh there was a there was a there was a a policy of anti-Semitism where students a policy of anti-Semitism where students a policy of anti-Semitism where students like me would be failed by special like me would be failed by special like me would be failed by special examiners examiners examiners mostly during the oral exam with mostly during the oral exam with mostly during the oral exam with mathematics but mathematics but mathematics but um um um occasionally would be written tests and occasionally would be written tests and occasionally would be written tests and stuff stuff stuff now my father is Jewish now my father is Jewish now my father is Jewish by Blood it was not religious his family by Blood it was not religious his family by Blood it was not religious his family was not religious my mom is Russian was not religious my mom is Russian was not religious my mom is Russian and but I was since my last name was my and but I was since my last name was my and but I was since my last name was my father's name so it was very easy too father's name so it was very easy too father's name so it was very easy too to read what my nationality was to read what my nationality was to read what my nationality was and so there was this can you imagine and so there was this can you imagine and so there was this can you imagine there were special people who would

there were special people who would there were special people who would screen up applicants who would put aside screen up applicants who would put aside screen up applicants who would put aside the files of the undesirables there the files of the undesirables there the files of the undesirables there would be special examiners who were would be special examiners who were would be special examiners who were actually professors at this University actually professors at this University actually professors at this University who would be designated as who would be designated as who would be designated as those who would take the exam from those those who would take the exam from those those who would take the exam from those undesirables it was it's almost comical undesirables it was it's almost comical undesirables it was it's almost comical when you look back now and also like when you look back now and also like when you look back now and also like questions why there was no reason other questions why there was no reason other questions why there was no reason other than just hatred of the other that's how than just hatred of the other that's how than just hatred of the other that's how I see it and just to give a little bit I see it and just to give a little bit I see it and just to give a little bit more color so more color so more color so uh because you mentioned nationality uh because you mentioned nationality uh because you mentioned nationality it's a little uh Quark that perhaps it's a little uh Quark that perhaps it's a little uh Quark that perhaps gives an inside to the bigger system gives an inside to the bigger system gives an inside to the bigger system that the nationality listed on your that the nationality listed on your that the nationality listed on your birth certificate when you're Jewish is birth certificate when you're Jewish is birth certificate when you're Jewish is Jewish and when you're non-jewish is Jewish and when you're non-jewish is Jewish and when you're non-jewish is this is Russian for me it was Russian so this is Russian for me it was Russian so this is Russian for me it was Russian so first of all in this in the inner part first of all in this in the inner part first of all in this in the inner part everybody has an internal passport everybody has an internal passport everybody has an internal passport and there you have first name petronic and there you have first name petronic and there you have first name petronic name name name last name last name last name date of birth so these are four and the date of birth so these are four and the date of birth so these are four and the fifth colon fifth colon fifth colon is nationality is nationality is nationality which comes from the nationality of the which comes from the nationality of the which comes from the nationality of the parents and so on in my case was written parents and so on in my case was written parents and so on in my case was written Russian because my mom was Russian but Russian because my mom was Russian but Russian because my mom was Russian but it didn't save me because that was my dad's last name because that was my dad's last name and so and so and so so anyway this was a a toughest so anyway this was a a toughest so anyway this was a a toughest experience that I had a bunch up until experience that I had a bunch up until experience that I had a bunch up until that point that point that point and there was these two people who came and there was these two people who came and there was these two people who came into the room where I was the only into the room where I was the only into the room where I was the only undesirable all other kids were being undesirable all other kids were being undesirable all other kids were being questioned by other examiners but they

questioned by other examiners but they questioned by other examiners but they told me that we could not uh question told me that we could not uh question told me that we could not uh question you we're waiting for special examiners you we're waiting for special examiners you we're waiting for special examiners so I was like oh so I was like oh so I was like oh something is a food and so these two something is a food and so these two something is a food and so these two guys came and it's for four hours guys came and it's for four hours guys came and it's for four hours basically and were asking me questions basically and were asking me questions basically and were asking me questions which were not in the program and so on which were not in the program and so on which were not in the program and so on but you know I was a kid I was 16 years but you know I was a kid I was 16 years but you know I was a kid I was 16 years old I tried to answer the best I can but old I tried to answer the best I can but old I tried to answer the best I can but it was a setup it was a setup it was a setup it's been documented since then there it's been documented since then there it's been documented since then there are even lists of problems are even lists of problems are even lists of problems that were given to undesirables in those that were given to undesirables in those that were given to undesirables in those days in my year days in my year days in my year um no no Jewish applicants as far as I um no no Jewish applicants as far as I um no no Jewish applicants as far as I know Jewish by this metric know Jewish by this metric know Jewish by this metric were accepted so then I had to go to were accepted so then I had to go to were accepted so then I had to go to this um this um this um there was one school technical school in there was one school technical school in there was one school technical school in Moscow Moscow Moscow which was the institute for oil and gas which was the institute for oil and gas which was the institute for oil and gas exploration which had a Applied exploration which had a Applied exploration which had a Applied Mathematics program Mathematics program Mathematics program and that's where me and many of my many and that's where me and many of my many and that's where me and many of my many of the kids who were not accepted to of the kids who were not accepted to of the kids who were not accepted to Moscow University ended up Moscow University ended up Moscow University ended up and so and so and so but the point is so and then I was I was but the point is so and then I was I was but the point is so and then I was I was so motivated by this because I wanted to so motivated by this because I wanted to so motivated by this because I wanted to show those guys you know show those guys you know show those guys you know that within five years less than five that within five years less than five that within five years less than five years I got a letter from the president years I got a letter from the president years I got a letter from the president of Harvard University of Harvard University of Harvard University inviting me as a visiting Professor to inviting me as a visiting Professor to inviting me as a visiting Professor to Harvard I was 21 I was barely 21 because Harvard I was 21 I was barely 21 because Harvard I was 21 I was barely 21 because I already did some research in the I already did some research in the I already did some research in the meantime that's how motivated I was you meantime that's how motivated I was you meantime that's how motivated I was you know so but the interesting aspect of it know so but the interesting aspect of it know so but the interesting aspect of it is that for for the longest time

is that for for the longest time is that for for the longest time afterwards I was telling myself a story afterwards I was telling myself a story afterwards I was telling myself a story that nothing really happened that nothing really happened that nothing really happened it wasn't so bad okay so I was failed it wasn't so bad okay so I was failed it wasn't so bad okay so I was failed but I knew that I was going to succeed but I knew that I was going to succeed but I knew that I was going to succeed it was 30 years later it was 30 years later it was 30 years later that I finally that I finally that I finally got to meet that boy that 16 year old got to meet that boy that 16 year old got to meet that boy that 16 year old that I that I that I that I neglected this time and I that I neglected this time and I that I neglected this time and I realized that he died that it was a realized that he died that it was a realized that he died that it was a crushing blow the Innocence not just crushing blow the Innocence not just crushing blow the Innocence not just instance because there was no way it instance because there was no way it instance because there was no way it looked like there was no way I could looked like there was no way I could looked like there was no way I could become a mathematician because if I become a mathematician because if I become a mathematician because if I don't if you don't accept me there don't if you don't accept me there don't if you don't accept me there it's over it's over it's over I didn't know that I could actually find I didn't know that I could actually find I didn't know that I could actually find this striving applied math program and this striving applied math program and this striving applied math program and then eventually somebody would take me then eventually somebody would take me then eventually somebody would take me under his wing and so on and then could under his wing and so on and then could under his wing and so on and then could move to the United States this was not move to the United States this was not move to the United States this was not in the realm of possibilities in the realm of possibilities in the realm of possibilities so in other words I could there was so in other words I could there was so in other words I could there was nothing to look forward to nothing to look forward to nothing to look forward to it was clear that it's over I cannot I cannot do what I love I cannot do what I love and so when I finally and so when I finally and so when I finally when I finally connected to that boy oh when I finally connected to that boy oh when I finally connected to that boy oh my God that was a totally different my God that was a totally different my God that was a totally different experience all the pain and all the experience all the pain and all the experience all the pain and all the trauma came to the surface and it was trauma came to the surface and it was trauma came to the surface and it was a kind of a tsunami a kind of a tsunami a kind of a tsunami I didn't I wasn't sure I would survive I didn't I wasn't sure I would survive I didn't I wasn't sure I would survive this so it was so hard this so it was so hard this so it was so hard and what happened was I was invited to and what happened was I was invited to and what happened was I was invited to to give a talk about this in New York

to give a talk about this in New York to give a talk about this in New York it was kind of a spoken word event it was kind of a spoken word event it was kind of a spoken word event uh about science but like personal uh about science but like personal uh about science but like personal experiences related to science this was experiences related to science this was experiences related to science this was almost a year after almost a year after almost a year after my book came out my book came out my book came out in my book in my book in my book one of the first chapters is a chapter one of the first chapters is a chapter one of the first chapters is a chapter about this experience about this experience about this experience but what I realized now is that I wrote but what I realized now is that I wrote but what I realized now is that I wrote it from the third person perspective it from the third person perspective it from the third person perspective I knew the facts I knew the facts I knew the facts but I was not emotionally connected to but I was not emotionally connected to but I was not emotionally connected to that experience however that experience however that experience however since I wanted to write the book and to since I wanted to write the book and to since I wanted to write the book and to connect to my readers I allowed the boy connect to my readers I allowed the boy connect to my readers I allowed the boy to write it to write it to write it so a lot of people were touched by it so a lot of people were touched by it so a lot of people were touched by it and they would people would say wow that and they would people would say wow that and they would people would say wow that chapter you know it really got a lot of chapter you know it really got a lot of chapter you know it really got a lot of resonance it was translated into other resonance it was translated into other resonance it was translated into other language even before the book was language even before the book was language even before the book was published published published I was surprised by this because I didn't I was surprised by this because I didn't I was surprised by this because I didn't know yet so the adult Edward was not yet know yet so the adult Edward was not yet know yet so the adult Edward was not yet in touch but the book gave the outlet in touch but the book gave the outlet in touch but the book gave the outlet to the child to the child to the child so so so and that kind of and that kind of and that kind of started the process started the process started the process so finally so finally so finally um um um almost a year later I'm in New York in almost a year later I'm in New York in almost a year later I'm in New York in this this this at this event and the night before at this event and the night before at this event and the night before I'm in my hotel room and I was like okay I'm in my hotel room and I was like okay I'm in my hotel room and I was like okay what am I going to talk about tomorrow what am I going to talk about tomorrow what am I going to talk about tomorrow and I take a piece of paper it's just and I take a piece of paper it's just and I take a piece of paper it's just you know my usual like preparation you you know my usual like preparation you you know my usual like preparation you know for things and then suddenly I have know for things and then suddenly I have know for things and then suddenly I have this Vision that I will walk up to the this Vision that I will walk up to the this Vision that I will walk up to the microphone tomorrow and I will just microphone tomorrow and I will just microphone tomorrow and I will just start crying start crying start crying and and and it's like

it's like it's like but by that time I already had an but by that time I already had an but by that time I already had an Insight that it's possible to have that Insight that it's possible to have that Insight that it's possible to have that kind of a splitting kind of dissociation kind of a splitting kind of dissociation kind of a splitting kind of dissociation I was not but if things were happening I was not but if things were happening I was not but if things were happening quickly there was someone in my life who quickly there was someone in my life who quickly there was someone in my life who explained to me this idea that explained to me this idea that explained to me this idea that some things are under the radar of some things are under the radar of some things are under the radar of awareness but they may still influence awareness but they may still influence awareness but they may still influence you you you and a lot of that could be connected to and a lot of that could be connected to and a lot of that could be connected to some experiences in your childhood so I some experiences in your childhood so I some experiences in your childhood so I was kind of ready for it from different was kind of ready for it from different was kind of ready for it from different angles but I was so surprised because I angles but I was so surprised because I angles but I was so surprised because I was like what is there to remember I was like what is there to remember I was like what is there to remember I know I know everything so then my inner know I know everything so then my inner know I know everything so then my inner voice says all right then you have voice says all right then you have voice says all right then you have nothing to worry about nothing to worry about nothing to worry about so we'll go tomorrow so we'll go tomorrow so we'll go tomorrow and you will speak about this and if you and you will speak about this and if you and you will speak about this and if you start crying it's not a problem I was start crying it's not a problem I was start crying it's not a problem I was like no I don't want to cry in front of like no I don't want to cry in front of like no I don't want to cry in front of people people people I want to find out what it is what I want to find out what it is what I want to find out what it is what happened happened happened and I sat on my bed closed my head and I sat on my bed closed my head and I sat on my bed closed my head and it came and it came and it came so so so it's hard to describe so this is what it's hard to describe so this is what it's hard to describe so this is what and the sheer energy of it and how much and the sheer energy of it and how much and the sheer energy of it and how much effort it took to suppress it actually effort it took to suppress it actually effort it took to suppress it actually for all these years how much effort it for all these years how much effort it for all these years how much effort it took to build that took to build that took to build that in Russian you know that that hardcore in Russian you know that that hardcore in Russian you know that that hardcore you know around myself yeah so that and you know around myself yeah so that and you know around myself yeah so that and the thing later I realized there were the thing later I realized there were the thing later I realized there were moments when it could come out moments when it could come out moments when it could come out and for instance I developed this fear and for instance I developed this fear and for instance I developed this fear of public speaking and all kinds of of public speaking and all kinds of of public speaking and all kinds of little things that I now feel were

little things that I now feel were little things that I now feel were connected so anyway I saw what happened connected so anyway I saw what happened connected so anyway I saw what happened now Through The Eyes of that child I saw now Through The Eyes of that child I saw now Through The Eyes of that child I saw how difficult it was how crushed he was how difficult it was how crushed he was how difficult it was how crushed he was and it looked completely hopeless and I and it looked completely hopeless and I and it looked completely hopeless and I felt like what's the point of living now felt like what's the point of living now felt like what's the point of living now for me now that I know how cruel this for me now that I know how cruel this for me now that I know how cruel this world is which I didn't realize before world is which I didn't realize before world is which I didn't realize before because I prefer to wear this pink you because I prefer to wear this pink you because I prefer to wear this pink you know the the rose Rose Colored Glasses know the the rose Rose Colored Glasses know the the rose Rose Colored Glasses but then something happened it's so but then something happened it's so but then something happened it's so strange strange strange it's like you feel that inside of you it's like you feel that inside of you it's like you feel that inside of you there is this dead child and it is there is this dead child and it is there is this dead child and it is incredibly sad I mean it's like incredibly sad I mean it's like incredibly sad I mean it's like I can't even describe it but suddenly he I can't even describe it but suddenly he I can't even describe it but suddenly he comes alive and suddenly it's like comes alive and suddenly it's like comes alive and suddenly it's like oh he's here and I and I got a little oh he's here and I and I got a little oh he's here and I and I got a little talk with him and I said look you know I talk with him and I said look you know I talk with him and I said look you know I know now and thank you I'm so sorry that know now and thank you I'm so sorry that know now and thank you I'm so sorry that I neglected you for so long you know I I neglected you for so long you know I I neglected you for so long you know I didn't know didn't know didn't know thank you thank you thank you for doing this and it's almost like you for doing this and it's almost like you for doing this and it's almost like you know I felt like the image came to mind know I felt like the image came to mind know I felt like the image came to mind is like a fallen soldier like you leave is like a fallen soldier like you leave is like a fallen soldier like you leave a fallen soldier on the battlefield a a fallen soldier on the battlefield a a fallen soldier on the battlefield a wounded soldier and then you come back wounded soldier and then you come back wounded soldier and then you come back to take him with you to take him with you to take him with you and and and and I said but look look what we have and I said but look look what we have and I said but look look what we have done look at us now it was not in vain done look at us now it was not in vain done look at us now it was not in vain we are doing okay we are doing okay we are doing okay and it's kind of almost just like and it's kind of almost just like and it's kind of almost just like holding holding holding holding holding that holding holding that holding holding that child and that child and that child and that that sense of who I am you know and

that sense of who I am you know and that sense of who I am you know and feeling it so feeling it so feeling it so the next day the next day the next day I went to the microphone and I let him I went to the microphone and I let him I went to the microphone and I let him speak for the first time speak for the first time speak for the first time about his experience in his own voice about his experience in his own voice about his experience in his own voice it was incredible people were crying and it was incredible people were crying and it was incredible people were crying and afterwards came up to me and started afterwards came up to me and started afterwards came up to me and started sharing stories and so on because it is sharing stories and so on because it is sharing stories and so on because it is a story it's a universal story it's a story it's a universal story it's a story it's a universal story it's archetypal story archetypal story archetypal story it's the story of rejection and it's the story of rejection and it's the story of rejection and being treated unfairly being treated unfairly being treated unfairly we all know it and I think it's so we all know it and I think it's so we all know it and I think it's so important to realize that important to realize that important to realize that it's so it's possible to revisit those it's so it's possible to revisit those it's so it's possible to revisit those moments it's possible to reconnect to moments it's possible to reconnect to moments it's possible to reconnect to our little ones it's possible to bring our little ones it's possible to bring our little ones it's possible to bring them back them back them back and we are better for it because this and we are better for it because this and we are better for it because this changed my life this experience then changed my life this experience then changed my life this experience then they were then suddenly it's like a they were then suddenly it's like a they were then suddenly it's like a floodgates there were many other things floodgates there were many other things floodgates there were many other things that came that came that came that's when I became that's when I became that's when I became interested in the dimensions of interested in the dimensions of interested in the dimensions of imagination and intuition and so on imagination and intuition and so on imagination and intuition and so on because suddenly I realized that I was because suddenly I realized that I was because suddenly I realized that I was deprived of those of that possibility of deprived of those of that possibility of deprived of those of that possibility of looking at the World Through The Eyes of looking at the World Through The Eyes of looking at the World Through The Eyes of a child because that child was frozen in a child because that child was frozen in a child because that child was frozen in time it was I was not connected to him time it was I was not connected to him time it was I was not connected to him but suddenly he's with me and he's like but suddenly he's with me and he's like but suddenly he's with me and he's like almost like opens his doors and says almost like opens his doors and says almost like opens his doors and says look good look at this look at this so so if I could ask you if I could ask you if I could ask you about there's a difficult idea here

about there's a difficult idea here about there's a difficult idea here there's a tension I've interacted with a there's a tension I've interacted with a there's a tension I've interacted with a few folks in my personal life and in few folks in my personal life and in few folks in my personal life and in general that have lived through uh this general that have lived through uh this general that have lived through uh this experience of unfairness and cruelty in experience of unfairness and cruelty in experience of unfairness and cruelty in the world as young the world as young the world as young people people people and what wisdom do you draw from what wisdom do you draw from the the the the action you took of not the the the the action you took of not the the the the action you took of not acknowledging that you're a victim to acknowledging that you're a victim to acknowledging that you're a victim to Cruelty but instead just working your Cruelty but instead just working your Cruelty but instead just working your ass off working harder ass off working harder ass off working harder and then this the flip side of that is and then this the flip side of that is and then this the flip side of that is you eventually reconnecting with the you eventually reconnecting with the you eventually reconnecting with the cruelty that you experience because if cruelty that you experience because if cruelty that you experience because if you did that early on I was not ready you did that early on I was not ready you did that early on I was not ready for it it is a defense mechanism I could for it it is a defense mechanism I could for it it is a defense mechanism I could be I could have come you know there were be I could have come you know there were be I could have come you know there were kids who commit suicide after this kids who commit suicide after this kids who commit suicide after this experience I could have commit suicide experience I could have commit suicide experience I could have commit suicide because it's too much because it's too much because it's too much and it is well known afterwards of and it is well known afterwards of and it is well known afterwards of course I became aware of all the course I became aware of all the course I became aware of all the literature about childhood trauma and so literature about childhood trauma and so literature about childhood trauma and so on and I have been I've been speaking on and I have been I've been speaking on and I have been I've been speaking publicly about it since then too and so publicly about it since then too and so publicly about it since then too and so you know it is well-known issue and you know it is well-known issue and you know it is well-known issue and well-known well-known well-known um um um kind of a universal phenomenon I think kind of a universal phenomenon I think kind of a universal phenomenon I think that interesting enough that interesting enough that interesting enough even though one now I see a lot of even though one now I see a lot of even though one now I see a lot of discussion of it now that my eyes are discussion of it now that my eyes are discussion of it now that my eyes are open but somehow before I didn't see it open but somehow before I didn't see it open but somehow before I didn't see it so that which also shows you how our so that which also shows you how our so that which also shows you how our confirmation bias kind of like how we confirmation bias kind of like how we confirmation bias kind of like how we screen ourselves how we turn the Blind

screen ourselves how we turn the Blind screen ourselves how we turn the Blind Eye to things which do not confirm our Eye to things which do not confirm our Eye to things which do not confirm our views or for which we are not yet ready views or for which we are not yet ready views or for which we are not yet ready and by the way nobody should push to do and by the way nobody should push to do and by the way nobody should push to do it too soon I'm glad I I developed it too soon I'm glad I I developed it too soon I'm glad I I developed certain force a certain strengths certain force a certain strengths certain force a certain strengths I was confident I was confident I was confident um I was strong to withstand this and if um I was strong to withstand this and if um I was strong to withstand this and if I weren't who knows how it could turn I weren't who knows how it could turn I weren't who knows how it could turn out so it is a very subtle kind of out so it is a very subtle kind of out so it is a very subtle kind of alchemical process alchemical process alchemical process which I don't think there is a recipe which I don't think there is a recipe which I don't think there is a recipe there's a formula there's a formula there's a formula the reason I'm talking about this is the reason I'm talking about this is the reason I'm talking about this is just to share this experience because I just to share this experience because I just to share this experience because I think that the only thing we can do in think that the only thing we can do in think that the only thing we can do in this in some sense is to share with each this in some sense is to share with each this in some sense is to share with each other because then we can find other because then we can find other because then we can find for instance if somebody for instance if somebody for instance if somebody shared with me shared with me shared with me it would naturally Lead Me Maybe to get it would naturally Lead Me Maybe to get it would naturally Lead Me Maybe to get closer to that to kind of understanding closer to that to kind of understanding closer to that to kind of understanding it's really just personal stories it's it's really just personal stories it's it's really just personal stories it's not not not obviously there is a there is a obviously there is a there is a obviously there is a there is a component where professionals could be component where professionals could be component where professionals could be involved professional therapists and so involved professional therapists and so involved professional therapists and so on in my case it somehow happened on in my case it somehow happened on in my case it somehow happened miraculously well I did have support but miraculously well I did have support but miraculously well I did have support but not not from professional therapists but not not from professional therapists but not not from professional therapists but from like dear friends from like dear friends from like dear friends so I did I did have you didn't you do so I did I did have you didn't you do so I did I did have you didn't you do need I had somebody at the time who need I had somebody at the time who need I had somebody at the time who basically held my hand and through this basically held my hand and through this basically held my hand and through this experience yes it was invaluable and it experience yes it was invaluable and it experience yes it was invaluable and it could not be done otherwise could not be done otherwise could not be done otherwise so I think it's very common and here's so I think it's very common and here's so I think it's very common and here's the thing I would not do it in any other way

I would not do it in any other way when you when I reconnected when you when I reconnected when you when I reconnected and I saw all the horrors and so on but and I saw all the horrors and so on but and I saw all the horrors and so on but I also was able to see I also was able to see I also was able to see that my examiners were victims that my examiners were victims that my examiners were victims of Their Own of Their Own of Their Own situation that they became they fell for situation that they became they fell for situation that they became they fell for this bogus this bogus this bogus series or maybe it was more of a issue series or maybe it was more of a issue series or maybe it was more of a issue of career advancement or something and of career advancement or something and of career advancement or something and I also realized they must have suffered I also realized they must have suffered I also realized they must have suffered as well because they must have had some as well because they must have had some as well because they must have had some kind of consciousness of conscience kind of consciousness of conscience kind of consciousness of conscience about it that acting this way towards about it that acting this way towards about it that acting this way towards sort of sort of sort of basically kids you know basically kids you know basically kids you know so it's not it wasn't pretty from their so it's not it wasn't pretty from their so it's not it wasn't pretty from their point of view so I could forgive them point of view so I could forgive them point of view so I could forgive them and I could like also appreciate what a and I could like also appreciate what a and I could like also appreciate what a what a boost of energy it gave me yeah what a boost of energy it gave me yeah what a boost of energy it gave me yeah if I was accepted and I was just where I if I was accepted and I was just where I if I was accepted and I was just where I was a first-year student I lived I would was a first-year student I lived I would was a first-year student I lived I would live in a dorm because I was in the you live in a dorm because I was in the you live in a dorm because I was in the you know I'd be probably partying and know I'd be probably partying and know I'd be probably partying and drinking and who knows what maybe I drinking and who knows what maybe I drinking and who knows what maybe I wouldn't even become a mathematician wouldn't even become a mathematician wouldn't even become a mathematician but this but this but this focused me like a laser without me even focused me like a laser without me even focused me like a laser without me even thinking about it it just happened I thinking about it it just happened I thinking about it it just happened I just I couldn't do I didn't care about just I couldn't do I didn't care about just I couldn't do I didn't care about anything but doing mathematics and it anything but doing mathematics and it anything but doing mathematics and it paid off you know it changed my life so paid off you know it changed my life so paid off you know it changed my life so was it good or bad was it good or bad was it good or bad Paradox Paradox Paradox seems like life is full of those seems like life is full of those seems like life is full of those um you said you lost your father four um you said you lost your father four um you said you lost your father four years ago yeah years ago yeah years ago yeah what have you learned about life from what have you learned about life from what have you learned about life from your dad that's another another big one

your dad that's another another big one your dad that's another another big one yeah because I was very close to him yeah because I was very close to him yeah because I was very close to him and uh it was tough it was tough and uh it was tough it was tough and uh it was tough it was tough and I was not and I was not and I was not I was sort of not ready for it because I was sort of not ready for it because I was sort of not ready for it because up until that point I lived pretending up until that point I lived pretending up until that point I lived pretending that death does not exist that death does not exist that death does not exist when my grandparents died I was already when my grandparents died I was already when my grandparents died I was already in the U.S in the U.S in the U.S so it's very convenient and I couldn't so it's very convenient and I couldn't so it's very convenient and I couldn't go back so I grieved but it kind of was go back so I grieved but it kind of was go back so I grieved but it kind of was a bit abstract for me I didn't see their a bit abstract for me I didn't see their a bit abstract for me I didn't see their dead bodies you know I didn't dead bodies you know I didn't dead bodies you know I didn't bury them and so on so I waited till so bury them and so on so I waited till so bury them and so on so I waited till so my the first death in my life was my my the first death in my life was my my the first death in my life was my father father father like of a really close loved ones and I like of a really close loved ones and I like of a really close loved ones and I was absolutely devastated was absolutely devastated was absolutely devastated you know he was such an amazing creature you know he was such an amazing creature you know he was such an amazing creature such an amazing human being he was the such an amazing human being he was the such an amazing human being he was the kindest the smartest the most funny just kindest the smartest the most funny just kindest the smartest the most funny just it's really funny and just really fun to it's really funny and just really fun to it's really funny and just really fun to be with you know this is what I miss be with you know this is what I miss be with you know this is what I miss obviously I mean I would just love to obviously I mean I would just love to obviously I mean I would just love to hang out with him hang out with him hang out with him so so so and then suddenly it's not there and then suddenly it's not there and then suddenly it's not there so it's tough but it kind of changed my so it's tough but it kind of changed my so it's tough but it kind of changed my perspective you miss him perspective you miss him perspective you miss him I miss him tremendously I miss him tremendously I miss him tremendously I miss intermittently but I in a way I I miss intermittently but I in a way I I miss intermittently but I in a way I learned that he never left me in some I learned that he never left me in some I learned that he never left me in some I mean it sounds so words are so you know mean it sounds so words are so you know mean it sounds so words are so you know like they are like they are like they are they cannot express in words this what they cannot express in words this what they cannot express in words this what I'm trying to say I'm trying to say I'm trying to say but

but but um do you carry him um do you carry him um do you carry him with you yeah and in some sense I always with you yeah and in some sense I always with you yeah and in some sense I always did and and I did and and I did and and I I I I saw that that it's always been saw that that it's always been saw that that it's always been um it was really we were one in some um it was really we were one in some um it was really we were one in some sense you know like we were but there sense you know like we were but there sense you know like we were but there was this experience of two two people two two people being together and that I missed being together and that I missed being together and that I missed tremendously tremendously tremendously but he gave me so much and I you know but he gave me so much and I you know but he gave me so much and I you know let me tell you one aspect of it for let me tell you one aspect of it for let me tell you one aspect of it for instance instance instance when he was a kid his father was sent to when he was a kid his father was sent to when he was a kid his father was sent to Gulag on bogus pretenses right so he Gulag on bogus pretenses right so he Gulag on bogus pretenses right so he when he was 16 he replied to University when he was 16 he replied to University when he was 16 he replied to University he wanted to become a theoretical he wanted to become a theoretical he wanted to become a theoretical physicist physicist physicist by the way my love for trichophysics was by the way my love for trichophysics was by the way my love for trichophysics was to the large extent to the large extent to the large extent because of that because of that because of that and he was not accepted even though he and he was not accepted even though he and he was not accepted even though he was brilliant because he was the son of was brilliant because he was the son of was brilliant because he was the son of the enemy of the people the enemy of the people the enemy of the people and he and he and he kind of broke him this experience that kind of broke him this experience that kind of broke him this experience that he he he didn't care when he was you know he went didn't care when he was you know he went didn't care when he was you know he went to technical school and he didn't really to technical school and he didn't really to technical school and he didn't really care that's my take on it care that's my take on it care that's my take on it and then he ended up in this in this in and then he ended up in this in this in and then he ended up in this in this in this little provincial town and he this little provincial town and he this little provincial town and he thought he would escape from it as soon thought he would escape from it as soon thought he would escape from it as soon as possible and then he met my mother as possible and then he met my mother as possible and then he met my mother and I fell in love and I fell in love and I fell in love and so I am sort of the product the and so I am sort of the product the and so I am sort of the product the product of that you know of physics but product of that you know of physics but product of that you know of physics but then then then what I learned is that what I learned is that what I learned is that because he was not able to overcome that

because he was not able to overcome that because he was not able to overcome that specific experience specific experience specific experience it felt to me to do it and if I didn't it felt to me to do it and if I didn't it felt to me to do it and if I didn't my son of my daughter would have I think my son of my daughter would have I think my son of my daughter would have I think that that was one of the things I that that was one of the things I that that was one of the things I learned learned learned that was not by chance that our about that was not by chance that our about that was not by chance that our about the same age the same age the same age for slightly different reasons I was for slightly different reasons I was for slightly different reasons I was subjected to the same kind of unfairness subjected to the same kind of unfairness subjected to the same kind of unfairness and cruelty and cruelty and cruelty and I in some ways I I feel like I did and I in some ways I I feel like I did and I in some ways I I feel like I did it for him also I always because he was it for him also I always because he was it for him also I always because he was also always so proud of me I was so also always so proud of me I was so also always so proud of me I was so happy and I was I had this tremendous happy and I was I had this tremendous happy and I was I had this tremendous gift gift gift twice I was invited by American twice I was invited by American twice I was invited by American mathematical Society mathematical Society mathematical Society to give this big lectures twice it was to give this big lectures twice it was to give this big lectures twice it was in 2012 and in 2018 in 2012 and in 2018 in 2012 and in 2018 and both times they were in Boston and both times they were in Boston and both times they were in Boston it could be anywhere in the U.S both it could be anywhere in the U.S both it could be anywhere in the U.S both times was in Boston times was in Boston times was in Boston walking distance from my parents place walking distance from my parents place walking distance from my parents place so he could be there with my mom as well so he could be there with my mom as well so he could be there with my mom as well and that was such a gift that he was and that was such a gift that he was and that was such a gift that he was beaming you know like seeing me on the beaming you know like seeing me on the beaming you know like seeing me on the stage stage stage so so so you know you know you know now that he's no longer here and it's now that he's no longer here and it's now that he's no longer here and it's just you just you just you know like I was still at my mom I still know like I was still at my mom I still know like I was still at my mom I still have my sister yeah but as a man yeah have my sister yeah but as a man yeah have my sister yeah but as a man yeah there's some aspect that it's there's some aspect that it's there's some aspect that it's um that it does hit you hard that it does hit you hard um are you afraid of your own death do um are you afraid of your own death do um are you afraid of your own death do you think about your death you think about your death you think about your death are you afraid of it are you afraid of it are you afraid of it I have a certain conceptual view of life I have a certain conceptual view of life I have a certain conceptual view of life and death today which is informed by my and death today which is informed by my and death today which is informed by my experiences in particular going through

experiences in particular going through experiences in particular going through my father's death my father's death my father's death and that is something which cannot be and that is something which cannot be and that is something which cannot be um conceptualized like that experience um conceptualized like that experience um conceptualized like that experience like he could not like he could not like he could not give it to somebody give it to somebody give it to somebody one thing I will say one thing I will say one thing I will say is that I felt that what it was it was is that I felt that what it was it was is that I felt that what it was it was actually love totally exposed like naked actually love totally exposed like naked actually love totally exposed like naked and you try to throw it is so acute so and you try to throw it is so acute so and you try to throw it is so acute so being facing that love is incredibly being facing that love is incredibly being facing that love is incredibly painful because it's so intense painful because it's so intense painful because it's so intense one person is alive one person is alive one person is alive we we have conversation we have wars we we we have conversation we have wars we we we have conversation we have wars we have some actions we have some stuff is have some actions we have some stuff is have some actions we have some stuff is going on and it puts a filter so you we going on and it puts a filter so you we going on and it puts a filter so you we rarely actually feel love and it's rarely actually feel love and it's rarely actually feel love and it's totally completely pure and adulterated totally completely pure and adulterated totally completely pure and adulterated state but when person dies it's there state but when person dies it's there state but when person dies it's there and it's staring at you and no matter and it's staring at you and no matter and it's staring at you and no matter what you do you cannot turn away like I what you do you cannot turn away like I what you do you cannot turn away like I try to it's like almost I felt like I try to it's like almost I felt like I try to it's like almost I felt like I want to throw a blanket over it yeah it want to throw a blanket over it yeah it want to throw a blanket over it yeah it burns like immediately like boom gone burns like immediately like boom gone burns like immediately like boom gone it's there it's there it's there live through it and I was I kept saying live through it and I was I kept saying live through it and I was I kept saying to myself I just live through it live to myself I just live through it live to myself I just live through it live through it that's how you and that's how through it that's how you and that's how through it that's how you and that's how you know also learn what is love for you know also learn what is love for you know also learn what is love for example what is it really example what is it really example what is it really what is love what is life also because I what is love what is life also because I what is love what is life also because I was completely was completely was completely I had no idea and I had no idea and I had no idea and and then you kind of learn that okay so and then you kind of learn that okay so and then you kind of learn that okay so maybe it's not quite maybe it's not quite maybe it's not quite there is more to it the more there is there is more to it the more there is there is more to it the more there is more to eat there's more to this more to eat there's more to this more to eat there's more to this experience than what can be put in a

experience than what can be put in a experience than what can be put in a concept or in a in a in a sentence in concept or in a in a in a sentence in concept or in a in a in a sentence in this in a maybe poetry or music can do this in a maybe poetry or music can do this in a maybe poetry or music can do some justice to it but if so then my own some justice to it but if so then my own some justice to it but if so then my own life has that component has that life has that component has that life has that component has that Dimension which is beyond anything I can Dimension which is beyond anything I can Dimension which is beyond anything I can say about it you know and even though I say about it you know and even though I say about it you know and even though I love this being this playing this role I love this being this playing this role I love this being this playing this role I love it love it love it and I kind of like it kind of makes me and I kind of like it kind of makes me and I kind of like it kind of makes me feel different about all kinds of feel different about all kinds of feel different about all kinds of difficulties that arise because it's difficulties that arise because it's difficulties that arise because it's almost like I want to enjoy it because almost like I want to enjoy it because almost like I want to enjoy it because that's what being human is it's being that's what being human is it's being that's what being human is it's being it's being terrified it's being it's being terrified it's being it's being terrified it's being frustrated it's being self-loathing frustrated it's being self-loathing frustrated it's being self-loathing sometimes it's not knowing but also sometimes it's not knowing but also sometimes it's not knowing but also being joyful and just like being joyful and just like being joyful and just like ah let's just enjoy it kind of all of it ah let's just enjoy it kind of all of it ah let's just enjoy it kind of all of it like that's why you came here for in like that's why you came here for in like that's why you came here for in some sense you know it's like not trying some sense you know it's like not trying some sense you know it's like not trying to run away from things but kind of to run away from things but kind of to run away from things but kind of trying to just live through them and trying to just live through them and trying to just live through them and appreciate so the biggest thing is appreciate so the biggest thing is appreciate so the biggest thing is gratitude in some sense it's just gratitude in some sense it's just gratitude in some sense it's just gratitude so thank you for letting me gratitude so thank you for letting me gratitude so thank you for letting me play this is gratitude for every single play this is gratitude for every single play this is gratitude for every single moment even if it's dark even if it's a moment even if it's dark even if it's a moment even if it's dark even if it's a loss and that's why I am so people loss and that's why I am so people loss and that's why I am so people around me they will say the total Doom around me they will say the total Doom around me they will say the total Doom and Gloom and the world is ending and and Gloom and the world is ending and and Gloom and the world is ending and I'm like I'm like I'm like first of all that's how you see it okay first of all that's how you see it okay first of all that's how you see it okay that's not the only point of view but that's not the only point of view but that's not the only point of view but also even if it is like that's your also even if it is like that's your also even if it is like that's your challenge like what are you going to do challenge like what are you going to do challenge like what are you going to do about it stop complaining about other about it stop complaining about other about it stop complaining about other people do something yourself how can you

people do something yourself how can you people do something yourself how can you make it a better world you know and I make it a better world you know and I make it a better world you know and I think all of that starts with just a think all of that starts with just a think all of that starts with just a gratitude for the moment to be able to gratitude for the moment to be able to gratitude for the moment to be able to play this game yeah how beautiful it is play this game yeah how beautiful it is play this game yeah how beautiful it is what uh we've talked about love but let what uh we've talked about love but let what uh we've talked about love but let me ask what role does Love play in this me ask what role does Love play in this me ask what role does Love play in this whole game in The Human Condition whole game in The Human Condition whole game in The Human Condition it's like the glue you know it's like it's like the glue you know it's like it's like the glue you know it's like for me it's like that for me it's like that for me it's like that it's and it's not because people say it's and it's not because people say it's and it's not because people say love is like um for a human being like a love is like um for a human being like a love is like um for a human being like a romantic love yeah which is huge a romantic love yeah which is huge a romantic love yeah which is huge a component of it obviously because so so component of it obviously because so so component of it obviously because so so beautiful to be able to to express it in beautiful to be able to to express it in beautiful to be able to to express it in this way but it could be love for what this way but it could be love for what this way but it could be love for what you do for your passion for something you do for your passion for something you do for your passion for something you know and uh you know and uh you know and uh or or or uh or love for for your for your friends uh or love for for your for your friends uh or love for for your for your friends for instance or love it doesn't have to for instance or love it doesn't have to for instance or love it doesn't have to be and so be and so be and so in some sense that's that's what it's in some sense that's that's what it's in some sense that's that's what it's all about in ultimately because all about in ultimately because all about in ultimately because Living Without Love it's kind of Living Without Love it's kind of Living Without Love it's kind of Bland boring and so Bland boring and so Bland boring and so I don't think it's possible for science I don't think it's possible for science I don't think it's possible for science to explain exactly what it is you can do to explain exactly what it is you can do to explain exactly what it is you can do uh evolutionary biology perspective you uh evolutionary biology perspective you uh evolutionary biology perspective you can talk about some kind of Sociology can talk about some kind of Sociology can talk about some kind of Sociology perspective psychology perspective but perspective psychology perspective but perspective psychology perspective but the experience the experience the experience where you forget or time we're reminded where you forget or time we're reminded where you forget or time we're reminded becomes an illusion and everything just becomes an illusion and everything just becomes an illusion and everything just freezes oh my God freezes oh my God freezes oh my God and then uh it's kind of beautiful and and then uh it's kind of beautiful and and then uh it's kind of beautiful and painful to hear you say that when you've painful to hear you say that when you've painful to hear you say that when you've experienced love the deepest is when you

experienced love the deepest is when you experienced love the deepest is when you lost it yes but in a sense you can say lost it yes but in a sense you can say lost it yes but in a sense you can say that you could not have one without the that you could not have one without the that you could not have one without the other I could not have that deep other I could not have that deep other I could not have that deep connection with my father like really on connection with my father like really on connection with my father like really on so so many levels so so many levels so so many levels if they weren't a moment that's how I if they weren't a moment that's how I if they weren't a moment that's how I see it and I'm not trying to say that's see it and I'm not trying to say that's see it and I'm not trying to say that's how everybody should see for instance I how everybody should see for instance I how everybody should see for instance I respect Rey Kurzweil I respect and I respect Rey Kurzweil I respect and I respect Rey Kurzweil I respect and I feel and I almost like I I feel good feel and I almost like I I feel good feel and I almost like I I feel good bumps right now I feel that desire to bumps right now I feel that desire to bumps right now I feel that desire to reconnect reconnect reconnect even if it is in the form of a you know even if it is in the form of a you know even if it is in the form of a you know a computer program let's be honest about a computer program let's be honest about a computer program let's be honest about it I find it to be very moving I find it it I find it to be very moving I find it it I find it to be very moving I find it very moving and I understand because he very moving and I understand because he very moving and I understand because he actually didn't have a chance to spend actually didn't have a chance to spend actually didn't have a chance to spend much time you know I think he was 16 or much time you know I think he was 16 or much time you know I think he was 16 or 17 when he's he was a teenager he's dead 17 when he's he was a teenager he's dead 17 when he's he was a teenager he's dead I was lucky because my father died I was I was lucky because my father died I was I was lucky because my father died I was much older I've had so many moments with much older I've had so many moments with much older I've had so many moments with him but that's not my thing like I think him but that's not my thing like I think him but that's not my thing like I think it is the feature it's not a bug and it it is the feature it's not a bug and it it is the feature it's not a bug and it sounds crazy like I would love I would sounds crazy like I would love I would sounds crazy like I would love I would give anything to have him or here right give anything to have him or here right give anything to have him or here right now right now I everything I have I give now right now I everything I have I give now right now I everything I have I give it away right now yeah where do I sign it away right now yeah where do I sign it away right now yeah where do I sign yeah just see him for one hour I promise yeah just see him for one hour I promise yeah just see him for one hour I promise you I will you I will you I will but I also know that I it then I'll but I also know that I it then I'll but I also know that I it then I'll still lose him still lose him still lose him or I will die or whatever you know so or I will die or whatever you know so or I will die or whatever you know so that thing so what is why is it so worse that thing so what is why is it so worse that thing so what is why is it so worse to just hold hold on to holding on to it to just hold hold on to holding on to it to just hold hold on to holding on to it why why are we holding on to this and I why why are we holding on to this and I why why are we holding on to this and I am the first sucker I'm the first man to am the first sucker I'm the first man to am the first sucker I'm the first man to hold on but I'm questioning it now like hold on but I'm questioning it now like hold on but I'm questioning it now like is there another way to approach life is there another way to approach life is there another way to approach life where you just you know how Buddha it's where you just you know how Buddha it's where you just you know how Buddha it's like

like like just let it go enjoy and let it go enjoy just let it go enjoy and let it go enjoy just let it go enjoy and let it go enjoy and let it go is it possible and let it go is it possible and let it go is it possible except the Paradox of it except the Paradox of it except the Paradox of it well ask me in a couple of years you well ask me in a couple of years you well ask me in a couple of years you know I will report but I think that it know I will report but I think that it know I will report but I think that it but to my mathematical mind yeah it but to my mathematical mind yeah it but to my mathematical mind yeah it sounds like a very interesting idea to sounds like a very interesting idea to sounds like a very interesting idea to be honest because to me the idea of be honest because to me the idea of be honest because to me the idea of holding isn't it sounds like an impasse holding isn't it sounds like an impasse holding isn't it sounds like an impasse because no matter in all my experience because no matter in all my experience because no matter in all my experience and if you look in history every time and if you look in history every time and if you look in history every time somebody's holding you know it's how somebody's holding you know it's how somebody's holding you know it's how they said in The Matrix whatever has a they said in The Matrix whatever has a they said in The Matrix whatever has a beginning has an end it's like you beginning has an end it's like you beginning has an end it's like you cannot go around it if you have a cannot go around it if you have a cannot go around it if you have a beginning you could have an end so then beginning you could have an end so then beginning you could have an end so then might as well just enjoy it and not might as well just enjoy it and not might as well just enjoy it and not worry too much about extending it longer worry too much about extending it longer worry too much about extending it longer that's how I see it now but maybe that's how I see it now but maybe that's how I see it now but maybe tomorrow will be something else you know tomorrow will be something else you know tomorrow will be something else you know yeah the roller coaster life the Paradox yeah the roller coaster life the Paradox yeah the roller coaster life the Paradox of life right Edward you're an of life right Edward you're an of life right Edward you're an incredible human being I've been a fan incredible human being I've been a fan incredible human being I've been a fan for a long time thank you for writing for a long time thank you for writing for a long time thank you for writing love and math thank you thank you for love and math thank you thank you for love and math thank you thank you for being who you are being uh both one of being who you are being uh both one of being who you are being uh both one of the greatest living mathematicians and the greatest living mathematicians and the greatest living mathematicians and still still still childlike Wander of the uh exploring the childlike Wander of the uh exploring the childlike Wander of the uh exploring the how this whole world works the the how this whole world works the the how this whole world works the the nature of the universe and thank you so nature of the universe and thank you so nature of the universe and thank you so much for speaking with me today this is much for speaking with me today this is much for speaking with me today this is amazing amazing amazing been a pleasure thank you been a pleasure thank you been a pleasure thank you thanks for listening to this thanks for listening to this thanks for listening to this conversation with Edward Frankel to conversation with Edward Frankel to conversation with Edward Frankel to support this podcast please check out support this podcast please check out support this podcast please check out our sponsors in the description and now our sponsors in the description and now our sponsors in the description and now let me leave you with some words from let me leave you with some words from let me leave you with some words from Sophia kalalevska a Russian Sophia kalalevska a Russian Sophia kalalevska a Russian mathematician

mathematician mathematician it is impossible to be a mathematician it is impossible to be a mathematician it is impossible to be a mathematician without being a poet in the soul without being a poet in the soul without being a poet in the soul thank you for listening and hope to see thank you for listening and hope to see thank you for listening and hope to see you next time