Charan Ranganath: Human Memory, Imagination, Deja Vu, and False Memories | Lex Fridman Podcast #430

the act of remembering can change the the act of remembering can change the memory if you remember some event and memory if you remember some event and memory if you remember some event and then I tell you something about the then I tell you something about the then I tell you something about the event later on when you remember the event later on when you remember the event later on when you remember the event you might remember some original event you might remember some original event you might remember some original information from the event as well as information from the event as well as information from the event as well as some information about what I told you some information about what I told you some information about what I told you and sometimes if you're not able to tell and sometimes if you're not able to tell and sometimes if you're not able to tell the difference that information that I the difference that information that I the difference that information that I told you gets mixed into the story that told you gets mixed into the story that told you gets mixed into the story that you had originally so now I give you you had originally so now I give you you had originally so now I give you some more misinformation or you're some more misinformation or you're some more misinformation or you're exposed to some more information some exposed to some more information some exposed to some more information some else and eventually your memory becomes else and eventually your memory becomes else and eventually your memory becomes totally detached from what totally detached from what totally detached from what happened the following is a conversation happened the following is a conversation happened the following is a conversation with Chon ranganath a psychologist and with Chon ranganath a psychologist and with Chon ranganath a psychologist and neuroscientist at UC Davis specializing neuroscientist at UC Davis specializing neuroscientist at UC Davis specializing in human memory he's the author of why in human memory he's the author of why in human memory he's the author of why we remember unlocking memory's power to we remember unlocking memory's power to we remember unlocking memory's power to hold on to what hold on to what hold on to what matters this is the Lex Freedman podcast matters this is the Lex Freedman podcast matters this is the Lex Freedman podcast to support it please check out our to support it please check out our to support it please check out our sponsors in the description and now dear sponsors in the description and now dear sponsors in the description and now dear friends here's Chon friends here's Chon friends here's Chon rangano Danny Conan describes the rangano Danny Conan describes the rangano Danny Conan describes the experiencing self and the remembering experiencing self and the remembering experiencing self and the remembering self and that happiness and satisfaction self and that happiness and satisfaction self and that happiness and satisfaction you gained from the outcomes of your you gained from the outcomes of your you gained from the outcomes of your decisions did not come from what you've decisions did not come from what you've decisions did not come from what you've experienced but rather from what you experienced but rather from what you experienced but rather from what you remember of the experience so uh can you remember of the experience so uh can you remember of the experience so uh can you speak to this interesting difference speak to this interesting difference speak to this interesting difference that you write about in your book of the that you write about in your book of the that you write about in your book of the experiencing self and the remembering experiencing self and the remembering experiencing self and the remembering self Danny really impacted me cuz I was self Danny really impacted me cuz I was self Danny really impacted me cuz I was an undergrad at Berkeley and I got to an undergrad at Berkeley and I got to an undergrad at Berkeley and I got to take a class from him long before he won

take a class from him long before he won take a class from him long before he won the Nobel Prize or anything and it was the Nobel Prize or anything and it was the Nobel Prize or anything and it was just a mind-blowing class but this idea just a mind-blowing class but this idea just a mind-blowing class but this idea of the remembering self and the of the remembering self and the of the remembering self and the experiencing self I got into it because experiencing self I got into it because experiencing self I got into it because it's so much about memory even though he it's so much about memory even though he it's so much about memory even though he doesn't study memory so we're right now doesn't study memory so we're right now doesn't study memory so we're right now having this experience right and people having this experience right and people having this experience right and people are can watch it presumably on YouTube are can watch it presumably on YouTube are can watch it presumably on YouTube or listen to it on audio but if you're or listen to it on audio but if you're or listen to it on audio but if you're talking to somebody else you could talking to somebody else you could talking to somebody else you could probably describe this whole thing in 10 probably describe this whole thing in 10 probably describe this whole thing in 10 minutes but that's going to miss a lot minutes but that's going to miss a lot minutes but that's going to miss a lot of what actually happened and so the of what actually happened and so the of what actually happened and so the idea there is is that the way we idea there is is that the way we idea there is is that the way we remember things is not the replay of the remember things is not the replay of the remember things is not the replay of the experience it's something totally experience it's something totally experience it's something totally different and it tends to be biased by different and it tends to be biased by different and it tends to be biased by the beginning and the end and he talks the beginning and the end and he talks the beginning and the end and he talks about the Peaks but there's also the you about the Peaks but there's also the you about the Peaks but there's also the you know the best parts the worst Parts Etc know the best parts the worst Parts Etc know the best parts the worst Parts Etc and those are the things that we and those are the things that we and those are the things that we remember and so when we make decisions remember and so when we make decisions remember and so when we make decisions we usually consult memory and we feel we usually consult memory and we feel we usually consult memory and we feel like our memories are record of what like our memories are record of what like our memories are record of what we've experienced but it's not it's this we've experienced but it's not it's this we've experienced but it's not it's this kind of very biased sample but it's kind of very biased sample but it's kind of very biased sample but it's biased in an interesting and I think biased in an interesting and I think biased in an interesting and I think biologically relevant way so in the way biologically relevant way so in the way biologically relevant way so in the way we construct a narrative about our we construct a narrative about our we construct a narrative about our past you say that uh it gives us an past you say that uh it gives us an past you say that uh it gives us an illusion of stability can you explain illusion of stability can you explain illusion of stability can you explain that basically I think that a lot of that basically I think that a lot of that basically I think that a lot of learning in the brain is driven towards learning in the brain is driven towards learning in the brain is driven towards being able to make sense I mean really being able to make sense I mean really being able to make sense I mean really memory is all about the the present and memory is all about the the present and memory is all about the the present and the Future Past is done so biologically

the Future Past is done so biologically the Future Past is done so biologically speaking it's not important unless speaking it's not important unless speaking it's not important unless there's something from the past that's there's something from the past that's there's something from the past that's useful and so what our brains are really useful and so what our brains are really useful and so what our brains are really optimized for is to learn about the optimized for is to learn about the optimized for is to learn about the stuff from the past that's going to be stuff from the past that's going to be stuff from the past that's going to be most useful in understanding the present most useful in understanding the present most useful in understanding the present and predicting the future right and so and predicting the future right and so and predicting the future right and so cause effect relationships for instance cause effect relationships for instance cause effect relationships for instance that's a big one now my future is that's a big one now my future is that's a big one now my future is completely unpredictable in the sense completely unpredictable in the sense completely unpredictable in the sense that like you could you know in the next that like you could you know in the next that like you could you know in the next 10 minutes pulling KN on me and slipped 10 minutes pulling KN on me and slipped 10 minutes pulling KN on me and slipped my throat right I was planning on it ex my throat right I was planning on it ex my throat right I was planning on it ex but having seen some of your work and but having seen some of your work and but having seen some of your work and just you know generally my expectations just you know generally my expectations just you know generally my expectations about life I'm not expecting that I have about life I'm not expecting that I have about life I'm not expecting that I have a certainty that everything's going to a certainty that everything's going to a certainty that everything's going to be fine we're going to have a great time be fine we're going to have a great time be fine we're going to have a great time talking today right but we're often talking today right but we're often talking today right but we're often right it's like okay so I go to a a see right it's like okay so I go to a a see right it's like okay so I go to a a see a band on stage you know I know they're a band on stage you know I know they're a band on stage you know I know they're going to make me wait the show's going going to make me wait the show's going going to make me wait the show's going to start late and then you know come to start late and then you know come to start late and then you know come they come on there's a very good chance they come on there's a very good chance they come on there's a very good chance there's going to be an encore I have a there's going to be an encore I have a there's going to be an encore I have a memory so to speak for that event before memory so to speak for that event before memory so to speak for that event before I've even walked into the show right I've even walked into the show right I've even walked into the show right there's going to be people holding up there's going to be people holding up there's going to be people holding up their camera phones to try to take their camera phones to try to take their camera phones to try to take videos of it now because this is kind of videos of it now because this is kind of videos of it now because this is kind of the world we live in so that's like the world we live in so that's like the world we live in so that's like everyday fortune telling that we do everyday fortune telling that we do everyday fortune telling that we do though it's not real it's imagine and though it's not real it's imagine and though it's not real it's imagine and it's amazing that we have this it's amazing that we have this it's amazing that we have this capability and that's what memory is capability and that's what memory is capability and that's what memory is about uh but it can also give us this about uh but it can also give us this about uh but it can also give us this illusion that we know everything that's illusion that we know everything that's illusion that we know everything that's about to happen um and I think what's about to happen um and I think what's about to happen um and I think what's valuable about that that illusion is valuable about that that illusion is valuable about that that illusion is when it's broken it gives us the when it's broken it gives us the when it's broken it gives us the information right so I mean I'm sure

information right so I mean I'm sure information right so I mean I'm sure being in AI you know about information being in AI you know about information being in AI you know about information Theory and the idea is the information Theory and the idea is the information Theory and the idea is the information is what you didn't already have and so is what you didn't already have and so is what you didn't already have and so those prediction errors that we make those prediction errors that we make those prediction errors that we make based on you know we make a prediction based on you know we make a prediction based on you know we make a prediction based on memory and the errors are where based on memory and the errors are where based on memory and the errors are where the action is the error is where the the action is the error is where the the action is the error is where the Learning Happens exactly Learning Happens exactly Learning Happens exactly exactly well just to linger on Danny exactly well just to linger on Danny exactly well just to linger on Danny Conan and just this whole idea Conan and just this whole idea Conan and just this whole idea of experiencing self versus remembering of experiencing self versus remembering of experiencing self versus remembering self I was hoping you can give a simple self I was hoping you can give a simple self I was hoping you can give a simple answer of how we should live life uh answer of how we should live life uh answer of how we should live life uh based on the fact that our memories based on the fact that our memories based on the fact that our memories could be a source of happiness or could could be a source of happiness or could could be a source of happiness or could be the primary source of happiness that be the primary source of happiness that be the primary source of happiness that an event when experienced Bears its an event when experienced Bears its an event when experienced Bears its fruits the most when it's remembered fruits the most when it's remembered fruits the most when it's remembered over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and maybe there is some wisdom in the fact maybe there is some wisdom in the fact maybe there is some wisdom in the fact that we can control to some degree how that we can control to some degree how that we can control to some degree how we remember it how we evolve our memory we remember it how we evolve our memory we remember it how we evolve our memory of it such that it can of it such that it can of it such that it can maximize the long-term happiness of that maximize the long-term happiness of that maximize the long-term happiness of that repeated experience okay well first I'll repeated experience okay well first I'll repeated experience okay well first I'll say I wish I could take you on the road say I wish I could take you on the road say I wish I could take you on the road with me that was such a great with me that was such a great with me that was such a great description can I be your opening act or description can I be your opening act or description can I be your opening act or oh my God no I'm going to open for you oh my God no I'm going to open for you oh my God no I'm going to open for you dude otherwise it's like you know dude otherwise it's like you know dude otherwise it's like you know everybody leaves after you're done everybody leaves after you're done everybody leaves after you're done believe me I did that in in Columbus believe me I did that in in Columbus believe me I did that in in Columbus Ohio once it wasn't fun like the opening Ohio once it wasn't fun like the opening Ohio once it wasn't fun like the opening acts like drank our bab we spent all

acts like drank our bab we spent all acts like drank our bab we spent all this money going all the way there there this money going all the way there there this money going all the way there there was only the everybody left after the was only the everybody left after the was only the everybody left after the opening acts were done and there was opening acts were done and there was opening acts were done and there was just that Stoner dude with the just that Stoner dude with the just that Stoner dude with the dreadlocks hanging out and then next you dreadlocks hanging out and then next you dreadlocks hanging out and then next you know we we blew like our savings on know we we blew like our savings on know we we blew like our savings on getting a hotel room so we should as a getting a hotel room so we should as a getting a hotel room so we should as a small tangent you're a legit touring act small tangent you're a legit touring act small tangent you're a legit touring act when I was in grad school I played in a when I was in grad school I played in a when I was in grad school I played in a band and yeah we traveled we would play band and yeah we traveled we would play band and yeah we traveled we would play shows it wasn't like we were in a shows it wasn't like we were in a shows it wasn't like we were in a hardcore touring band but we did some hardcore touring band but we did some hardcore touring band but we did some touring and and had some fun times and touring and and had some fun times and touring and and had some fun times and yeah you did we did a movie soundtrack yeah you did we did a movie soundtrack yeah you did we did a movie soundtrack nice Henry portrait of serial killer so nice Henry portrait of serial killer so nice Henry portrait of serial killer so that's a good movie we were on the that's a good movie we were on the that's a good movie we were on the soundtrack for the sequel Henry 2 mask soundtrack for the sequel Henry 2 mask soundtrack for the sequel Henry 2 mask of Sanity which is a terrible movie yeah of Sanity which is a terrible movie yeah of Sanity which is a terrible movie yeah how's the soundtrack it's pretty good how's the soundtrack it's pretty good how's the soundtrack it's pretty good it's badass at least that one part where it's badass at least that one part where it's badass at least that one part where the guy throws up the milkshake all the guy throws up the milkshake all the guy throws up the milkshake all right song we're going to have to see right song we're going to have to see right song we're going to have to see we're going to have to see it all right we're going to have to see it all right we're going to have to see it all right we're getting back to life advice you we're getting back to life advice you we're getting back to life advice you know yeah uh one thing that I try to know yeah uh one thing that I try to know yeah uh one thing that I try to live by especially nowadays and since I live by especially nowadays and since I live by especially nowadays and since I wrote the book I've been thinking more wrote the book I've been thinking more wrote the book I've been thinking more and more about this is how do I want to and more about this is how do I want to and more about this is how do I want to live a memorable life you know I think live a memorable life you know I think live a memorable life you know I think if we go back to like the pandemic right if we go back to like the pandemic right if we go back to like the pandemic right how many people have memories from that how many people have memories from that how many people have memories from that period aside from the trauma of being period aside from the trauma of being period aside from the trauma of being you know locked up and seeing people die you know locked up and seeing people die you know locked up and seeing people die and all the stuff um I think it's like and all the stuff um I think it's like and all the stuff um I think it's like one of these things where we were stuck one of these things where we were stuck one of these things where we were stuck inside looking at screens all day doing inside looking at screens all day doing inside looking at screens all day doing the same thing with the same people and the same thing with the same people and the same thing with the same people and so I don't remember much from that in so I don't remember much from that in so I don't remember much from that in terms of those good memories that you're

terms of those good memories that you're terms of those good memories that you're talking about right you know when I was talking about right you know when I was talking about right you know when I was growing up my parents worked really hard growing up my parents worked really hard growing up my parents worked really hard for us and you know we went on some for us and you know we went on some for us and you know we went on some vacations but not very often and I vacations but not very often and I vacations but not very often and I really try to do now vacations to really try to do now vacations to really try to do now vacations to interesting places as much as possible interesting places as much as possible interesting places as much as possible with my family because like those are with my family because like those are with my family because like those are the things that you remember right so I the things that you remember right so I the things that you remember right so I I really do think about what's going to I really do think about what's going to I really do think about what's going to be like something that's memorable and be like something that's memorable and be like something that's memorable and then just do it even if it's a pain in then just do it even if it's a pain in then just do it even if it's a pain in the ass because the experiencing self the ass because the experiencing self the ass because the experiencing self will suffer for that but the remembering will suffer for that but the remembering will suffer for that but the remembering self will be like yes I'm so glad I did self will be like yes I'm so glad I did self will be like yes I'm so glad I did that do things that are very unpleasant that do things that are very unpleasant that do things that are very unpleasant in the moment because those can be in the moment because those can be in the moment because those can be reframed and enjoyed for many years to reframed and enjoyed for many years to reframed and enjoyed for many years to come that's come that's come that's probably um good advice or at least when probably um good advice or at least when probably um good advice or at least when you're going through it's a good you're going through it's a good you're going through it's a good way to uh see the silver lining of it way to uh see the silver lining of it way to uh see the silver lining of it yeah I mean I think it's one of these yeah I mean I think it's one of these yeah I mean I think it's one of these things where if you have like people who things where if you have like people who things where if you have like people who you've gone through I since you said it you've gone through I since you said it you've gone through I since you said it I'll just say since you've gone through I'll just say since you've gone through I'll just say since you've gone through with someone and it's like uh with someone and it's like uh with someone and it's like uh that's a bonding experience often you that's a bonding experience often you that's a bonding experience often you know I mean that can really bring you know I mean that can really bring you know I mean that can really bring you together I like to say it's like there's together I like to say it's like there's together I like to say it's like there's no point in suffering unless you get a no point in suffering unless you get a no point in suffering unless you get a story out of it so uh in the book I talk story out of it so uh in the book I talk story out of it so uh in the book I talk about the power of the way we about the power of the way we about the power of the way we communicate with others and how that communicate with others and how that communicate with others and how that shapes our memories and so I had this shapes our memories and so I had this shapes our memories and so I had this near-death experience at least that's near-death experience at least that's near-death experience at least that's how I remember it on this paddle board how I remember it on this paddle board how I remember it on this paddle board where just everything that could have where just everything that could have where just everything that could have gone wrong did go wrong almost um so gone wrong did go wrong almost um so gone wrong did go wrong almost um so many mistakes were made and um um ended

many mistakes were made and um um ended many mistakes were made and um um ended up like at some point just like up like at some point just like up like at some point just like basically away from my board pinned in a basically away from my board pinned in a basically away from my board pinned in a current like in this corner like not a current like in this corner like not a current like in this corner like not a super good swimmer and my friend who super good swimmer and my friend who super good swimmer and my friend who came with me Randy who's a computational came with me Randy who's a computational came with me Randy who's a computational neuroscientist and he had just been neuroscientist and he had just been neuroscientist and he had just been pushed down uh past me so he couldn't pushed down uh past me so he couldn't pushed down uh past me so he couldn't even see me and I'm just like if I die even see me and I'm just like if I die even see me and I'm just like if I die here you know I mean no one's around here you know I mean no one's around here you know I mean no one's around it's it's like you just die alone and so it's it's like you just die alone and so it's it's like you just die alone and so I just said well failure is not an I just said well failure is not an I just said well failure is not an option and eventually I got out of it option and eventually I got out of it option and eventually I got out of it and uh froze and got cut up and I mean and uh froze and got cut up and I mean and uh froze and got cut up and I mean the the things that we were going the the things that we were going the the things that we were going through were just insane but short through were just insane but short through were just insane but short version of this is uh you know my my version of this is uh you know my my version of this is uh you know my my wife and my daughter and ry's wife they wife and my daughter and ry's wife they wife and my daughter and ry's wife they gave us all sorts of Hell about this cuz gave us all sorts of Hell about this cuz gave us all sorts of Hell about this cuz they were just like where they were they were just like where they were they were just like where they were ready to send out a search party so they ready to send out a search party so they ready to send out a search party so they were giving me hell about it and then I were giving me hell about it and then I were giving me hell about it and then I started to tell people in my lab about started to tell people in my lab about started to tell people in my lab about this and then friends and it just became this and then friends and it just became this and then friends and it just became a better and better story every time and a better and better story every time and a better and better story every time and we actually had some photos of just the we actually had some photos of just the we actually had some photos of just the crazy things like this generator that crazy things like this generator that crazy things like this generator that was hanging over the water and we're was hanging over the water and we're was hanging over the water and we're like ducking under this Z these metal like ducking under this Z these metal like ducking under this Z these metal grings and I'm like going flat on and I grings and I'm like going flat on and I grings and I'm like going flat on and I was just nuts you know but it became a was just nuts you know but it became a was just nuts you know but it became a great story and it was defin I mean great story and it was defin I mean great story and it was defin I mean Randy and I were already tight but that Randy and I were already tight but that Randy and I were already tight but that was a real bonding experience for us and was a real bonding experience for us and was a real bonding experience for us and yeah I mean and I learned from that that yeah I mean and I learned from that that yeah I mean and I learned from that that it's like I don't look back on that it's like I don't look back on that it's like I don't look back on that enough actually because I think uh we enough actually because I think uh we enough actually because I think uh we often H at least for me I don't

often H at least for me I don't often H at least for me I don't necessarily have the confidence to think necessarily have the confidence to think necessarily have the confidence to think that things will work out that I'll be that things will work out that I'll be that things will work out that I'll be able to get through certain thing but my able to get through certain thing but my able to get through certain thing but my ability to to actually get something ability to to actually get something ability to to actually get something done in that moment is better than I done in that moment is better than I done in that moment is better than I give myself credit for I think and uh give myself credit for I think and uh give myself credit for I think and uh that was the lesson of that story that I that was the lesson of that story that I that was the lesson of that story that I really took away well actually just for really took away well actually just for really took away well actually just for me you're making me realize now that me you're making me realize now that me you're making me realize now that it's not just those kinds of stories but it's not just those kinds of stories but it's not just those kinds of stories but even things like periods of depression even things like periods of depression even things like periods of depression or really low points to me at least it or really low points to me at least it or really low points to me at least it feels like um motivating thing that the feels like um motivating thing that the feels like um motivating thing that the darker it gets the better the story will darker it gets the better the story will darker it gets the better the story will be if you emerge on the other side that be if you emerge on the other side that be if you emerge on the other side that to me feel feels like a motivating thing to me feel feels like a motivating thing to me feel feels like a motivating thing so maybe if people listening to this and so maybe if people listening to this and so maybe if people listening to this and they're going through some as we they're going through some as we they're going through some as we said uh one one thing um that could be a said uh one one thing um that could be a said uh one one thing um that could be a source of light is that it'll be a hell source of light is that it'll be a hell source of light is that it'll be a hell of a good story when it's all over when of a good story when it's all over when of a good story when it's all over when you merge in the other you merge in the other you merge in the other side uh let me ask you about decisions side uh let me ask you about decisions side uh let me ask you about decisions you've you already talked about it a you've you already talked about it a you've you already talked about it a little bit but when we Face the world little bit but when we Face the world little bit but when we Face the world and we're making different and we're making different and we're making different decisions how much does our decisions how much does our decisions how much does our memory come into play is it the the kind memory come into play is it the the kind memory come into play is it the the kind of narratives that we've constructed of narratives that we've constructed of narratives that we've constructed about the world that are used to make about the world that are used to make about the world that are used to make predictions that's fundamentally part of predictions that's fundamentally part of predictions that's fundamentally part of the decision- making absolutely yeah so the decision- making absolutely yeah so the decision- making absolutely yeah so let's say after this you and I decided let's say after this you and I decided let's say after this you and I decided we're going to go for a beer right how we're going to go for a beer right how we're going to go for a beer right how do you choose where to go you're do you choose where to go you're do you choose where to go you're probably going to be like oh yeah this probably going to be like oh yeah this probably going to be like oh yeah this new bar opened up near me had a great new bar opened up near me had a great new bar opened up near me had a great time there they had a great beer

time there they had a great beer time there they had a great beer selection or you might say oh we went to selection or you might say oh we went to selection or you might say oh we went to this place and it was totally crowded this place and it was totally crowded this place and it was totally crowded and they're playing this horrible EDM or and they're playing this horrible EDM or and they're playing this horrible EDM or whatever and so right there valuable whatever and so right there valuable whatever and so right there valuable source of information right and then you source of information right and then you source of information right and then you have these things like where you do this have these things like where you do this have these things like where you do this counterfactual stuff like well well I counterfactual stuff like well well I counterfactual stuff like well well I did this previously but what if I had did this previously but what if I had did this previously but what if I had gone somewhere else and said maybe I'll gone somewhere else and said maybe I'll gone somewhere else and said maybe I'll go to this other place because I didn't go to this other place because I didn't go to this other place because I didn't try it the previous time so there's all try it the previous time so there's all try it the previous time so there's all that kind of reasoning that goes into it that kind of reasoning that goes into it that kind of reasoning that goes into it too um I think even if you think about too um I think even if you think about too um I think even if you think about the big decisions in life right it's the big decisions in life right it's the big decisions in life right it's like you and I were talking before we like you and I were talking before we like you and I were talking before we started recording about how I got into started recording about how I got into started recording about how I got into memory research and you got into uh Ai memory research and you got into uh Ai memory research and you got into uh Ai and it's like we all have these personal and it's like we all have these personal and it's like we all have these personal reasons that guide us in these reasons that guide us in these reasons that guide us in these particular directions and some of it's particular directions and some of it's particular directions and some of it's the and environment and random factors the and environment and random factors the and environment and random factors in life and some of it is memories of in life and some of it is memories of in life and some of it is memories of things that we want to overcome or things that we want to overcome or things that we want to overcome or things that we build on in a positive things that we build on in a positive things that we build on in a positive way but either way they Define us and way but either way they Define us and way but either way they Define us and probably the earlier in life the probably the earlier in life the probably the earlier in life the memories happen the more defining the memories happen the more defining the memories happen the more defining the more defining power they have in terms more defining power they have in terms more defining power they have in terms of determining who we become I mean I do of determining who we become I mean I do of determining who we become I mean I do feel like adolesence is much more feel like adolesence is much more feel like adolesence is much more important than I think people give important than I think people give important than I think people give credit for I think that there is this credit for I think that there is this credit for I think that there is this kind of a sense like you know um the kind of a sense like you know um the kind of a sense like you know um the first three years of life is the most first three years of life is the most first three years of life is the most important part but uh the teenage years important part but uh the teenage years important part but uh the teenage years are just so important for the brain you are just so important for the brain you are just so important for the brain you know and so that's where a lot of mental know and so that's where a lot of mental know and so that's where a lot of mental illness starts to emerge um you know now

illness starts to emerge um you know now illness starts to emerge um you know now we're thinking of things like we're thinking of things like we're thinking of things like schizophrenia as a neurodevelopmental schizophrenia as a neurodevelopmental schizophrenia as a neurodevelopmental disorder because it just emerges during disorder because it just emerges during disorder because it just emerges during that period of adolescence and early that period of adolescence and early that period of adolescence and early adulthood so and I think the other part adulthood so and I think the other part adulthood so and I think the other part of it is is that you know as I guess I of it is is that you know as I guess I of it is is that you know as I guess I was a little bit too firm in saying that was a little bit too firm in saying that was a little bit too firm in saying that memory determines who we are it's really memory determines who we are it's really memory determines who we are it's really the self is an evolving construct I the self is an evolving construct I the self is an evolving construct I think we kind of underestimate that and think we kind of underestimate that and think we kind of underestimate that and when you're a parent you feel like every when you're a parent you feel like every when you're a parent you feel like every decision you make is consequential in decision you make is consequential in decision you make is consequential in forming this child and plays a role but forming this child and plays a role but forming this child and plays a role but so do the child's peers and so do you so do the child's peers and so do you so do the child's peers and so do you know there's so much I mean that's why I know there's so much I mean that's why I know there's so much I mean that's why I think the big part of Education I think think the big part of Education I think think the big part of Education I think that's so important is not the content that's so important is not the content that's so important is not the content you learn I mean think of how much dumb you learn I mean think of how much dumb you learn I mean think of how much dumb stuff we learned in school right but uh stuff we learned in school right but uh stuff we learned in school right but uh a lot of it is learning how to get along a lot of it is learning how to get along a lot of it is learning how to get along with people and learning who you are and with people and learning who you are and with people and learning who you are and how you function and you know that can how you function and you know that can how you function and you know that can be terribly traumatizing even if you be terribly traumatizing even if you be terribly traumatizing even if you have a perfect you know parents working have a perfect you know parents working have a perfect you know parents working on you is there some insight into the on you is there some insight into the on you is there some insight into the human brain that explains um why we human brain that explains um why we human brain that explains um why we don't seem to remember anything from the don't seem to remember anything from the don't seem to remember anything from the first few years of life yeah yeah in first few years of life yeah yeah in first few years of life yeah yeah in fact actually I was just talking to my fact actually I was just talking to my fact actually I was just talking to my uh really good friend and colleague uh really good friend and colleague uh really good friend and colleague Simona gy who studies uh the Simona gy who studies uh the Simona gy who studies uh the Neuroscience of Child Development and so Neuroscience of Child Development and so Neuroscience of Child Development and so we were talking about this and so there we were talking about this and so there we were talking about this and so there are a bunch of reasons I would say so are a bunch of reasons I would say so are a bunch of reasons I would say so one reason is there's an area of the one reason is there's an area of the one reason is there's an area of the brain in the called the hippocampus brain in the called the hippocampus brain in the called the hippocampus which is very very important for

which is very very important for which is very very important for remembering events or episodic memory remembering events or episodic memory remembering events or episodic memory and so the first two years of life and so the first two years of life and so the first two years of life there's a period called infantile there's a period called infantile there's a period called infantile Amnesia and then the next couple years Amnesia and then the next couple years Amnesia and then the next couple years of life after that there's a period of life after that there's a period of life after that there's a period called childhood Amnesia and the called childhood Amnesia and the called childhood Amnesia and the difference is that basically in lab and difference is that basically in lab and difference is that basically in lab and you know even during childhood and you know even during childhood and you know even during childhood and afterwards children basically don't have afterwards children basically don't have afterwards children basically don't have any episodic memories for those first any episodic memories for those first any episodic memories for those first two years the next two years it's very two years the next two years it's very two years the next two years it's very fragmentary and that's why they call it fragmentary and that's why they call it fragmentary and that's why they call it childhood Amnesia so there's some but childhood Amnesia so there's some but childhood Amnesia so there's some but it's not much so one reason is that the it's not much so one reason is that the it's not much so one reason is that the hippocampus is taking some time to hippocampus is taking some time to hippocampus is taking some time to develop but another is the neocortex so develop but another is the neocortex so develop but another is the neocortex so the whole folded stuff of gray matter the whole folded stuff of gray matter the whole folded stuff of gray matter all around the hippocampus is developing all around the hippocampus is developing all around the hippocampus is developing so rapidly and changing so rapidly and changing so rapidly and changing and a child's knowledge of the world is and a child's knowledge of the world is and a child's knowledge of the world is just massively being built up right so I just massively being built up right so I just massively being built up right so I mean I'm going to probably embarrass mean I'm going to probably embarrass mean I'm going to probably embarrass myself but it's like if you showed like myself but it's like if you showed like myself but it's like if you showed like you know you trained a neural network you know you trained a neural network you know you trained a neural network and you give it like the first couple of and you give it like the first couple of and you give it like the first couple of patterns or something like that and then patterns or something like that and then patterns or something like that and then you bombard it with another like you you bombard it with another like you you bombard it with another like you know years worth of data try to get back know years worth of data try to get back know years worth of data try to get back those first couple of patterns right those first couple of patterns right those first couple of patterns right it's like everything changes and so the it's like everything changes and so the it's like everything changes and so the brain is so plastic the cortex is so brain is so plastic the cortex is so brain is so plastic the cortex is so plastic during that time and we think plastic during that time and we think plastic during that time and we think that that memories for events are very that that memories for events are very that that memories for events are very distributed across the brain so imagine distributed across the brain so imagine distributed across the brain so imagine you're trying to get back that pattern you're trying to get back that pattern you're trying to get back that pattern of activity that happened during this of activity that happened during this of activity that happened during this one moment but the roads that you would one moment but the roads that you would one moment but the roads that you would take to get there have been completely take to get there have been completely take to get there have been completely rerouted right so I think that's my best

rerouted right so I think that's my best rerouted right so I think that's my best explanation the third explanation is a explanation the third explanation is a explanation the third explanation is a child's sense of self takes a while to child's sense of self takes a while to child's sense of self takes a while to develop and so their experience of develop and so their experience of develop and so their experience of learning might be more learning what learning might be more learning what learning might be more learning what happened as opposed to having this first happened as opposed to having this first happened as opposed to having this first person experience of I remember was person experience of I remember was person experience of I remember was there well I think somebody uh once said there well I think somebody uh once said there well I think somebody uh once said to me that uh kind of loosely to me that uh kind of loosely to me that uh kind of loosely philosophically that the reason we don't philosophically that the reason we don't philosophically that the reason we don't remember the first few years of life remember the first few years of life remember the first few years of life infantile Amnesia is because how infantile Amnesia is because how infantile Amnesia is because how traumatic it is MH basically the the traumatic it is MH basically the the traumatic it is MH basically the the error rate that you mentioned when your error rate that you mentioned when your error rate that you mentioned when your brain's prediction doesn't match reality brain's prediction doesn't match reality brain's prediction doesn't match reality the error rate in the first few years of the error rate in the first few years of the error rate in the first few years of life your first few months certainly is life your first few months certainly is life your first few months certainly is probably crazy high it's just nonstop probably crazy high it's just nonstop probably crazy high it's just nonstop freaking out the the collision between freaking out the the collision between freaking out the the collision between your model of the world and how the your model of the world and how the your model of the world and how the world works is just so high that you world works is just so high that you world works is just so high that you want whatever the trauma of that is not want whatever the trauma of that is not want whatever the trauma of that is not to linger around I always thought that to linger around I always thought that to linger around I always thought that an interesting idea because like just an interesting idea because like just an interesting idea because like just imagine the insanity of what's happening imagine the insanity of what's happening imagine the insanity of what's happening in a human brain in the first couple in a human brain in the first couple in a human brain in the first couple years just you you don't know anything years just you you don't know anything years just you you don't know anything and there's just this stream of and there's just this stream of and there's just this stream of knowledge and we're somehow knowledge and we're somehow knowledge and we're somehow given how plastic everything is he just given how plastic everything is he just given how plastic everything is he just kind of molds and figures it out but kind of molds and figures it out but kind of molds and figures it out but it's it's like an it's it's like an it's it's like an insane waterfall of information I insane waterfall of information I insane waterfall of information I wouldn't necessarily describe it as a wouldn't necessarily describe it as a wouldn't necessarily describe it as a trauma and we can get into this whole trauma and we can get into this whole trauma and we can get into this whole stages of Life thing which I just love

stages of Life thing which I just love stages of Life thing which I just love basically those first few years there basically those first few years there basically those first few years there are I mean you know I mean think about are I mean you know I mean think about are I mean you know I mean think about it a kid's internal model of their body it a kid's internal model of their body it a kid's internal model of their body is changing right it's like just is changing right it's like just is changing right it's like just learning to move I mean like you know learning to move I mean like you know learning to move I mean like you know you if you ever have a baby you'll know you if you ever have a baby you'll know you if you ever have a baby you'll know that like the first three months they're that like the first three months they're that like the first three months they're discovering their toes right it's just discovering their toes right it's just discovering their toes right it's just nuts so everything is changing but nuts so everything is changing but nuts so everything is changing but what's really fascinating is and I think what's really fascinating is and I think what's really fascinating is and I think this is one of those this is not at all this is one of those this is not at all this is one of those this is not at all me being a scientist but it's like one me being a scientist but it's like one me being a scientist but it's like one of those things that people talk about of those things that people talk about of those things that people talk about when they talk about the you know when they talk about the you know when they talk about the you know positive aspects of children is that positive aspects of children is that positive aspects of children is that they're exceptionally curious and they they're exceptionally curious and they they're exceptionally curious and they have this kind of openness towards the have this kind of openness towards the have this kind of openness towards the world and so that prediction error is world and so that prediction error is world and so that prediction error is not a a negative traumatic thing I think not a a negative traumatic thing I think not a a negative traumatic thing I think it's like a very positive thing because it's like a very positive thing because it's like a very positive thing because it's what they use they're seeking it's what they use they're seeking it's what they use they're seeking information one of the areas that I'm information one of the areas that I'm information one of the areas that I'm very interested in is the prefrontal very interested in is the prefrontal very interested in is the prefrontal cortex it's an area of the brain that I cortex it's an area of the brain that I cortex it's an area of the brain that I mean I could talk all day about it but mean I could talk all day about it but mean I could talk all day about it but it's it helps us use our knowledge to it's it helps us use our knowledge to it's it helps us use our knowledge to say hey this is what I want to do now say hey this is what I want to do now say hey this is what I want to do now this is my goal so this is how I'm going this is my goal so this is how I'm going this is my goal so this is how I'm going to achieve it and focus everything to achieve it and focus everything to achieve it and focus everything toward cycle right the prefrontal cortex toward cycle right the prefrontal cortex toward cycle right the prefrontal cortex takes forever to develop in humans the takes forever to develop in humans the takes forever to develop in humans the connections are still being tweaked and connections are still being tweaked and connections are still being tweaked and reformed like into late adolescence reformed like into late adolescence reformed like into late adolescence early adulthood which is when you tend early adulthood which is when you tend early adulthood which is when you tend to see mental illness pop up right so to see mental illness pop up right so to see mental illness pop up right so it's being massively reformed then you it's being massively reformed then you it's being massively reformed then you have about 10 years maybe of prime have about 10 years maybe of prime have about 10 years maybe of prime functioning of the prefrontal cortex and

functioning of the prefrontal cortex and functioning of the prefrontal cortex and then it starts going down again and you then it starts going down again and you then it starts going down again and you end up being older and you start losing end up being older and you start losing end up being older and you start losing all that frontal function so look at all that frontal function so look at all that frontal function so look at this and you'd say okay from you sit this and you'd say okay from you sit this and you'd say okay from you sit around episodic memory talks we always around episodic memory talks we always around episodic memory talks we always say children are worse than adults at say children are worse than adults at say children are worse than adults at episodic memory episodic memory episodic memory older adults or worse than young adults older adults or worse than young adults older adults or worse than young adults at episodic memory and I always say at episodic memory and I always say at episodic memory and I always say would say God this so weird why would we would say God this so weird why would we would say God this so weird why would we have this period of time that's so short have this period of time that's so short have this period of time that's so short when we're perfect right or optimal and when we're perfect right or optimal and when we're perfect right or optimal and I I like to use the word optimal now I I like to use the word optimal now I I like to use the word optimal now because there's such a culture of because there's such a culture of because there's such a culture of optimization right now and it's like I optimization right now and it's like I optimization right now and it's like I realize I have to redefine what optimal realize I have to redefine what optimal realize I have to redefine what optimal is because for most of the Human is because for most of the Human is because for most of the Human Condition I think we had a series of Condition I think we had a series of Condition I think we had a series of stages of life where you have stages of life where you have stages of life where you have basically adults saying okay young basically adults saying okay young basically adults saying okay young adults saying I've got a child and you adults saying I've got a child and you adults saying I've got a child and you know I'm part of this Village and I have know I'm part of this Village and I have know I'm part of this Village and I have to hunt and forage and get things done I to hunt and forage and get things done I to hunt and forage and get things done I need a prefrontal cortex so I can stay need a prefrontal cortex so I can stay need a prefrontal cortex so I can stay focused on the big picture and the Long focused on the big picture and the Long focused on the big picture and the Long Haul goals now I'm a child I'm in this Haul goals now I'm a child I'm in this Haul goals now I'm a child I'm in this Village I'm kind of wandering around and Village I'm kind of wandering around and Village I'm kind of wandering around and I've got some safety and I need to learn I've got some safety and I need to learn I've got some safety and I need to learn about this culture because I know so about this culture because I know so about this culture because I know so little what's the best way to do that little what's the best way to do that little what's the best way to do that let's explore I don't want to be let's explore I don't want to be let's explore I don't want to be constrained by goals as much I want to constrained by goals as much I want to constrained by goals as much I want to really be free play and explore and really be free play and explore and really be free play and explore and learn so you don't want a super tight learn so you don't want a super tight learn so you don't want a super tight prefrontal cortex you don't even know prefrontal cortex you don't even know prefrontal cortex you don't even know what the goals should be yet right it's what the goals should be yet right it's what the goals should be yet right it's like if you're trying to design a model like if you're trying to design a model like if you're trying to design a model that's based on a bad goal it's G to that's based on a bad goal it's G to that's based on a bad goal it's G to it's not going to work well right so

it's not going to work well right so it's not going to work well right so then you go late in life you say why then you go late in life you say why then you go late in life you say why don't you have a great prefrontal cortex don't you have a great prefrontal cortex don't you have a great prefrontal cortex then but I think I mean if you go back then but I think I mean if you go back then but I think I mean if you go back and you think how many species actually and you think how many species actually and you think how many species actually stick around naturally long after their stick around naturally long after their stick around naturally long after their child bearing ears are over after the child bearing ears are over after the child bearing ears are over after the reproductive years are over like reproductive years are over like reproductive years are over like menopause from what I understand menopause from what I understand menopause from what I understand menopause is not all that common in the menopause is not all that common in the menopause is not all that common in the animal world right why would that happen animal world right why would that happen animal world right why would that happen and so I saw Alison gnik said something and so I saw Alison gnik said something and so I saw Alison gnik said something about this so I started to look into about this so I started to look into about this so I started to look into this about this idea that you know this about this idea that you know this about this idea that you know really when you're older in most really when you're older in most really when you're older in most societies your job is no longer to form societies your job is no longer to form societies your job is no longer to form new episodic memories it's to pass on new episodic memories it's to pass on new episodic memories it's to pass on the memories that you already have this the memories that you already have this the memories that you already have this knowledge about the world or what we knowledge about the world or what we knowledge about the world or what we call semantic meor memory to pass on call semantic meor memory to pass on call semantic meor memory to pass on that semantic memory to the younger that semantic memory to the younger that semantic memory to the younger Generations pass on the culture you know Generations pass on the culture you know Generations pass on the culture you know even now in indigenous cultures that's even now in indigenous cultures that's even now in indigenous cultures that's the role of the elders they're respected the role of the elders they're respected the role of the elders they're respected they're not seen as you know people who they're not seen as you know people who they're not seen as you know people who are past it and losing it and I thought are past it and losing it and I thought are past it and losing it and I thought that was a very poignant thing that that was a very poignant thing that that was a very poignant thing that memory is doing what it's supposed to memory is doing what it's supposed to memory is doing what it's supposed to throughout these stages of life so it is throughout these stages of life so it is throughout these stages of life so it is always optimal in a sense it's just always optimal in a sense it's just always optimal in a sense it's just optimal for that stage of Life yeah and optimal for that stage of Life yeah and optimal for that stage of Life yeah and for the Ecology of the system so you've for the Ecology of the system so you've for the Ecology of the system so you've got so I looked into this and it's like got so I looked into this and it's like got so I looked into this and it's like another species that has menopause is another species that has menopause is another species that has menopause is Orcas Orca pods are led by the Orcas Orca pods are led by the Orcas Orca pods are led by the grandmothers right so not the young grandmothers right so not the young grandmothers right so not the young adults not the parents or whatever the adults not the parents or whatever the adults not the parents or whatever the grandmothers and so they're the ones grandmothers and so they're the ones grandmothers and so they're the ones that pass on the Traditions to the I that pass on the Traditions to the I that pass on the Traditions to the I guess the younger generation of orcas

guess the younger generation of orcas guess the younger generation of orcas and if you you know if you look from and if you you know if you look from and if you you know if you look from what little I understand different Orca what little I understand different Orca what little I understand different Orca pods have different Traditions they hunt pods have different Traditions they hunt pods have different Traditions they hunt for different things they have different for different things they have different for different things they have different play traditions and uh that's a culture play traditions and uh that's a culture play traditions and uh that's a culture right and so in Social right and so in Social right and so in Social animals Evolution I think is designing animals Evolution I think is designing animals Evolution I think is designing brains that are really around you know brains that are really around you know brains that are really around you know it's it's obviously optimized for the it's it's obviously optimized for the it's it's obviously optimized for the individual but also for kin and I think individual but also for kin and I think individual but also for kin and I think that the kin are part of this like when that the kin are part of this like when that the kin are part of this like when they're part of this intense social they're part of this intense social they're part of this intense social group The Brain development should group The Brain development should group The Brain development should parallel that the nature of the ecology parallel that the nature of the ecology parallel that the nature of the ecology well it's just fascinating to think of well it's just fascinating to think of well it's just fascinating to think of the individual Orca or human throughout the individual Orca or human throughout the individual Orca or human throughout his life in stages doing a kind of his life in stages doing a kind of his life in stages doing a kind of optimal wisdom development so in the optimal wisdom development so in the optimal wisdom development so in the early days you don't even know what the early days you don't even know what the early days you don't even know what the goal is and you figure out the goal and goal is and you figure out the goal and goal is and you figure out the goal and you kind of optimize for that goal and you kind of optimize for that goal and you kind of optimize for that goal and you pursue that goal and then all the you pursue that goal and then all the you pursue that goal and then all the wisdom you collect through that then you wisdom you collect through that then you wisdom you collect through that then you share with the others in the system with share with the others in the system with share with the others in the system with the other individuals and as a as a the other individuals and as a as a the other individuals and as a as a collective then you kind of converge collective then you kind of converge collective then you kind of converge towards greater wisdom throughout the towards greater wisdom throughout the towards greater wisdom throughout the generation so in that sense it's optimal generation so in that sense it's optimal generation so in that sense it's optimal us humans and orcas got something going us humans and orcas got something going us humans and orcas got something going on it works yeah apex on it works yeah apex on it works yeah apex predators uh I just got a meglan on predators uh I just got a meglan on predators uh I just got a meglan on tooth speaking of a Apex parties it's uh tooth speaking of a Apex parties it's uh tooth speaking of a Apex parties it's uh just imagine the size of that just imagine the size of that just imagine the size of that thing anyway uh how does the brain

thing anyway uh how does the brain thing anyway uh how does the brain forget and how and why does it remember forget and how and why does it remember forget and how and why does it remember so maybe some of the mechanisms you so maybe some of the mechanisms you so maybe some of the mechanisms you mentioned the hippocampus what are the mentioned the hippocampus what are the mentioned the hippocampus what are the different components involved here so we different components involved here so we different components involved here so we can think about this on a number of can think about this on a number of can think about this on a number of levels maybe I'll give you the simplest levels maybe I'll give you the simplest levels maybe I'll give you the simplest version first which is we tend to think version first which is we tend to think version first which is we tend to think of memories as these individual things of memories as these individual things of memories as these individual things and we can just access them maybe a and we can just access them maybe a and we can just access them maybe a little bit like you know photos on your little bit like you know photos on your little bit like you know photos on your phone or something like that but in the phone or something like that but in the phone or something like that but in the brain the way it works is you have this brain the way it works is you have this brain the way it works is you have this distributed pool of neurons and the distributed pool of neurons and the distributed pool of neurons and the memories are kind of shared across memories are kind of shared across memories are kind of shared across different pools of neurons and so what different pools of neurons and so what different pools of neurons and so what you have is competition where sometimes you have is competition where sometimes you have is competition where sometimes memories that overlap can be fighting memories that overlap can be fighting memories that overlap can be fighting against each other right so sometimes we against each other right so sometimes we against each other right so sometimes we forget because that competition just forget because that competition just forget because that competition just wipes things out sometimes we forget wipes things out sometimes we forget wipes things out sometimes we forget because there aren't the biological because there aren't the biological because there aren't the biological signals which we can get into that would signals which we can get into that would signals which we can get into that would promote long-term retention and lots of promote long-term retention and lots of promote long-term retention and lots of times we forget because we can't find times we forget because we can't find times we forget because we can't find the queue that sends us back to the the queue that sends us back to the the queue that sends us back to the right memory and we need the right cue right memory and we need the right cue right memory and we need the right cue to be able to activate it right so um to be able to activate it right so um to be able to activate it right so um you know for instance in an neural you know for instance in an neural you know for instance in an neural network there is no you wouldn't go and network there is no you wouldn't go and network there is no you wouldn't go and you'd say this is the memory right it's you'd say this is the memory right it's you'd say this is the memory right it's like the whole Network I mean the whole like the whole Network I mean the whole like the whole Network I mean the whole ecosystem of memories is in the weights ecosystem of memories is in the weights ecosystem of memories is in the weights of the neural network and in fact you of the neural network and in fact you of the neural network and in fact you could extract entirely new memories could extract entirely new memories could extract entirely new memories depending on how you feed yeah you have depending on how you feed yeah you have depending on how you feed yeah you have to have the right query the right prompt to have the right query the right prompt to have the right query the right prompt to access that whatever the part you're to access that whatever the part you're to access that whatever the part you're looking for that's exactly right that's looking for that's exactly right that's looking for that's exactly right that's exactly right and in humans you have exactly right and in humans you have exactly right and in humans you have this more complex set of ways memory this more complex set of ways memory this more complex set of ways memory works there's as I said the knowledge or

works there's as I said the knowledge or works there's as I said the knowledge or what you call semantic memory and then what you call semantic memory and then what you call semantic memory and then there's these memories for specific there's these memories for specific there's these memories for specific events which we call episodic memory and events which we call episodic memory and events which we call episodic memory and so there's different pieces of the so there's different pieces of the so there's different pieces of the puzzle that require different kinds of puzzle that require different kinds of puzzle that require different kinds of cues so that's a big part of it too is cues so that's a big part of it too is cues so that's a big part of it too is just this kind of what we call retrieval just this kind of what we call retrieval just this kind of what we call retrieval failure you mentioned episodic memory failure you mentioned episodic memory failure you mentioned episodic memory you mentioned semantic memory what are you mentioned semantic memory what are you mentioned semantic memory what are the different separations here what's uh the different separations here what's uh the different separations here what's uh working memory short-term memory working memory short-term memory working memory short-term memory long-term memory what are the long-term memory what are the long-term memory what are the interesting categories of memory yeah interesting categories of memory yeah interesting categories of memory yeah and so memory researchers we love to cut and so memory researchers we love to cut and so memory researchers we love to cut things up and say you know is memory one things up and say you know is memory one things up and say you know is memory one thing or is it two things there's two thing or is it two things there's two thing or is it two things there's two things or is three things and so one of things or is three things and so one of things or is three things and so one of the things that there's value in that the things that there's value in that the things that there's value in that and especially experimental value in and especially experimental value in and especially experimental value in terms of being able to dissect thing in terms of being able to dissect thing in terms of being able to dissect thing in the real world it's all connected speak the real world it's all connected speak the real world it's all connected speak to your question working memory is a to your question working memory is a to your question working memory is a term that was coined by Alan battley term that was coined by Alan battley term that was coined by Alan battley it's basically thought to be this it's basically thought to be this it's basically thought to be this ability to keep information online in ability to keep information online in ability to keep information online in your mind right in front of you at a your mind right in front of you at a your mind right in front of you at a given time and to be able to control the given time and to be able to control the given time and to be able to control the flow of that information to choose what flow of that information to choose what flow of that information to choose what information is relevant to be able to information is relevant to be able to information is relevant to be able to manipulate it and so forth and one of manipulate it and so forth and one of manipulate it and so forth and one of the things that Allan did that was was the things that Allan did that was was the things that Allan did that was was quite brilliant was he said there's this quite brilliant was he said there's this quite brilliant was he said there's this ability to kind of passively store ability to kind of passively store ability to kind of passively store information you know see things in your information you know see things in your information you know see things in your mind's eye or hear your internal mind's eye or hear your internal mind's eye or hear your internal monologue but um you know we have that monologue but um you know we have that monologue but um you know we have that ability to keep information in mind but ability to keep information in mind but ability to keep information in mind but then we also have the separate what you then we also have the separate what you then we also have the separate what you called an a central executive which is called an a central executive which is called an a central executive which is identified a lot with the prefrontal identified a lot with the prefrontal identified a lot with the prefrontal cortex it's this ability to control the

cortex it's this ability to control the cortex it's this ability to control the flow of information that's being kept flow of information that's being kept flow of information that's being kept active based on what it is you're doing active based on what it is you're doing active based on what it is you're doing now a lot of my early work was basically now a lot of my early work was basically now a lot of my early work was basically saying that this working memory which saying that this working memory which saying that this working memory which some memory researchers would call some memory researchers would call some memory researchers would call short-term memory is not at all short-term memory is not at all short-term memory is not at all independent from long-term memory that independent from long-term memory that independent from long-term memory that is that a lot of executive function is that a lot of executive function is that a lot of executive function requires learning and you have to have requires learning and you have to have requires learning and you have to have like synaptic change for that to happen like synaptic change for that to happen like synaptic change for that to happen and um but there's also transient forms and um but there's also transient forms and um but there's also transient forms of memory so one of the things I've been of memory so one of the things I've been of memory so one of the things I've been getting into lately is the idea that we getting into lately is the idea that we getting into lately is the idea that we form internal models of events the form internal models of events the form internal models of events the obvious one that I always us as birthday obvious one that I always us as birthday obvious one that I always us as birthday parties right so you go to a child's parties right so you go to a child's parties right so you go to a child's birthday party once the cake comes out birthday party once the cake comes out birthday party once the cake comes out and they start you just see a candle You and they start you just see a candle You and they start you just see a candle You can predict the whole frame you know set can predict the whole frame you know set can predict the whole frame you know set of events that happens later and up till of events that happens later and up till of events that happens later and up till that point where the child blows out the that point where the child blows out the that point where the child blows out the candle you have an internal model in candle you have an internal model in candle you have an internal model in your head of what's going on and so if your head of what's going on and so if your head of what's going on and so if you follow people's eyes it's not you follow people's eyes it's not you follow people's eyes it's not actually on what's happening it's going actually on what's happening it's going actually on what's happening it's going where the action's about to happen um where the action's about to happen um where the action's about to happen um which is just fascinating right so you which is just fascinating right so you which is just fascinating right so you have this internal model and that's a have this internal model and that's a have this internal model and that's a kind of a working memory product it's kind of a working memory product it's kind of a working memory product it's something that you're keeping online something that you're keeping online something that you're keeping online that's allowing you to interpret this that's allowing you to interpret this that's allowing you to interpret this world around you now to build that model world around you now to build that model world around you now to build that model though you need to pull out stuff from though you need to pull out stuff from though you need to pull out stuff from uh your general knowledge of the world uh your general knowledge of the world uh your general knowledge of the world which is what we call semantic memory which is what we call semantic memory which is what we call semantic memory and then you'd want to be able to pull and then you'd want to be able to pull and then you'd want to be able to pull out memories for specific events that out memories for specific events that out memories for specific events that happen in the past which we call happen in the past which we call happen in the past which we call episodic memory so in a way they're all episodic memory so in a way they're all episodic memory so in a way they're all connected even though it's different um

connected even though it's different um connected even though it's different um the things that we're focusing on and the things that we're focusing on and the things that we're focusing on and the way we organize information in the the way we organize information in the the way we organize information in the present which is working memory will present which is working memory will present which is working memory will play a big role in determining how we play a big role in determining how we play a big role in determining how we remember that information later which remember that information later which remember that information later which people typically call long-term memory people typically call long-term memory people typically call long-term memory so if you have something like a a so if you have something like a a so if you have something like a a birthday party and you've been to many birthday party and you've been to many birthday party and you've been to many before you're going to load that from before you're going to load that from before you're going to load that from dis into working memory this model and dis into working memory this model and dis into working memory this model and then you're mostly operating on the then you're mostly operating on the then you're mostly operating on the model and if it's a model and if it's a model and if it's a new task you're you don't have a model new task you're you don't have a model new task you're you don't have a model so you're more in the data collection so you're more in the data collection so you're more in the data collection yeah one of the fascinating things that yeah one of the fascinating things that yeah one of the fascinating things that we've been studying and this is we're we've been studying and this is we're we've been studying and this is we're not at all the first to do this Jeff ZX not at all the first to do this Jeff ZX not at all the first to do this Jeff ZX was a big Pioneer in this um and I've was a big Pioneer in this um and I've was a big Pioneer in this um and I've been working with many other people Ken been working with many other people Ken been working with many other people Ken Norman um Lea daachi NY or Colombia has Norman um Lea daachi NY or Colombia has Norman um Lea daachi NY or Colombia has done some interesting stuff with this is done some interesting stuff with this is done some interesting stuff with this is this idea that we form these internal this idea that we form these internal this idea that we form these internal models at particular points of high models at particular points of high models at particular points of high prediction error or points of I believe prediction error or points of I believe prediction error or points of I believe also points of uncertainty points of also points of uncertainty points of also points of uncertainty points of surprise or motivationally significant surprise or motivationally significant surprise or motivationally significant periods and those points are when it's periods and those points are when it's periods and those points are when it's maximally op optimal to encode an maximally op optimal to encode an maximally op optimal to encode an episodic memory so I used to think oh episodic memory so I used to think oh episodic memory so I used to think oh well we're just encoding episodic well we're just encoding episodic well we're just encoding episodic memories constantly boom boom boom boom memories constantly boom boom boom boom memories constantly boom boom boom boom boom but think about how much redundancy boom but think about how much redundancy boom but think about how much redundancy there is in all that right it's just a there is in all that right it's just a there is in all that right it's just a lot of information that you don't need lot of information that you don't need lot of information that you don't need but if you capture an episodic memory at but if you capture an episodic memory at but if you capture an episodic memory at the point of Maximum uncertainty for the the point of Maximum uncertainty for the the point of Maximum uncertainty for the singular experience right you're just singular experience right you're just singular experience right you're just it's only going to happen once but if it's only going to happen once but if it's only going to happen once but if you capture it at the point of Maximum

you capture it at the point of Maximum you capture it at the point of Maximum uncertainty or maximum surprise you have uncertainty or maximum surprise you have uncertainty or maximum surprise you have the most useful point in your experience the most useful point in your experience the most useful point in your experience that you've grabbed and what we see is that you've grabbed and what we see is that you've grabbed and what we see is that the hippocampus and these other that the hippocampus and these other that the hippocampus and these other networks uh that are involved in networks uh that are involved in networks uh that are involved in generating these internal models of generating these internal models of generating these internal models of events they show a heighten period of events they show a heighten period of events they show a heighten period of connectivity or correlated activity connectivity or correlated activity connectivity or correlated activity during those breaks between different during those breaks between different during those breaks between different events which we call event boundaries events which we call event boundaries events which we call event boundaries these are the points where you're like these are the points where you're like these are the points where you're like surprised or you cross from one room to surprised or you cross from one room to surprised or you cross from one room to another and so forth and that another and so forth and that another and so forth and that communication is associated with a bump communication is associated with a bump communication is associated with a bump of activity in the hippocampus and of activity in the hippocampus and of activity in the hippocampus and better memory and so better memory and so better memory and so if people have a very good internal if people have a very good internal if people have a very good internal model throughout that event you don't model throughout that event you don't model throughout that event you don't need to do much memory processing you're need to do much memory processing you're need to do much memory processing you're in a predictive mode right and so then in a predictive mode right and so then in a predictive mode right and so then at these event boundaries you encode and at these event boundaries you encode and at these event boundaries you encode and then you retrieve and you're like okay then you retrieve and you're like okay then you retrieve and you're like okay wait a minute what's going on here ranat wait a minute what's going on here ranat wait a minute what's going on here ranat now talking about orcas what's going on now talking about orcas what's going on now talking about orcas what's going on and maybe you have to go back and and maybe you have to go back and and maybe you have to go back and remember reading my book to pull out the remember reading my book to pull out the remember reading my book to pull out the episodic memory to make sense of episodic memory to make sense of episodic memory to make sense of whatever it is I'm babbling about right whatever it is I'm babbling about right whatever it is I'm babbling about right and so there's this beauti dynamics that and so there's this beauti dynamics that and so there's this beauti dynamics that you can see in the brain of these you can see in the brain of these you can see in the brain of these different networks that are coming different networks that are coming different networks that are coming together and then deail a different together and then deail a different together and then deail a different points in time that are allowing you to points in time that are allowing you to points in time that are allowing you to go into these modes and so to speak to go into these modes and so to speak to go into these modes and so to speak to your original question to some extent your original question to some extent your original question to some extent when we're talking about semantic memory when we're talking about semantic memory when we're talking about semantic memory and episodic memory and working memory and episodic memory and working memory and episodic memory and working memory you can think about it as these you can think about it as these you can think about it as these processes that are unfolding as these processes that are unfolding as these processes that are unfolding as these networks kind of come together and Pull networks kind of come together and Pull networks kind of come together and Pull Apart can memory be trained and improved

Apart can memory be trained and improved Apart can memory be trained and improved this beautiful connected system that this beautiful connected system that this beautiful connected system that you've you've you've described what aspect of it is a described what aspect of it is a described what aspect of it is a mechanism that can be improved through mechanism that can be improved through mechanism that can be improved through training I think Improvement it depends training I think Improvement it depends training I think Improvement it depends on what your definition of optimal is so on what your definition of optimal is so on what your definition of optimal is so what I say in the book is is that you what I say in the book is is that you what I say in the book is is that you don't want to remember more you want to don't want to remember more you want to don't want to remember more you want to remember better which means focusing on remember better which means focusing on remember better which means focusing on the things that are important and that's the things that are important and that's the things that are important and that's what our brains are designed to do so if what our brains are designed to do so if what our brains are designed to do so if you go back to the earliest quantitative you go back to the earliest quantitative you go back to the earliest quantitative studies in memory by ebing house what studies in memory by ebing house what studies in memory by ebing house what you see is that he was trying so hard to you see is that he was trying so hard to you see is that he was trying so hard to memorize this arbitrary nonsense and memorize this arbitrary nonsense and memorize this arbitrary nonsense and within a day he lost about 60% of that within a day he lost about 60% of that within a day he lost about 60% of that information and he was using he was information and he was using he was information and he was using he was basically using a very very generous way basically using a very very generous way basically using a very very generous way of measuring it right so as far as we of measuring it right so as far as we of measuring it right so as far as we know nobody has managed to violate those know nobody has managed to violate those know nobody has managed to violate those basics of having people forget you know basics of having people forget you know basics of having people forget you know most of their experiences so if your most of their experiences so if your most of their experiences so if your expectation is that you should remember expectation is that you should remember expectation is that you should remember everything and that's what your optimal everything and that's what your optimal everything and that's what your optimal is you're already off because that's is you're already off because that's is you're already off because that's just not what human brains are designed just not what human brains are designed just not what human brains are designed to do do on the other hand what we see to do do on the other hand what we see to do do on the other hand what we see over and over again is that the brain over and over again is that the brain over and over again is that the brain does basically one of the cool things does basically one of the cool things does basically one of the cool things about the design of the brain is it's about the design of the brain is it's about the design of the brain is it's always less is more less is more right always less is more less is more right always less is more less is more right it's like I mean I've seen estimates it's like I mean I've seen estimates it's like I mean I've seen estimates that the human brain uses something like that the human brain uses something like that the human brain uses something like 12 to 20 watts you know in a day I mean 12 to 20 watts you know in a day I mean 12 to 20 watts you know in a day I mean that's just nuts the low power that's just nuts the low power that's just nuts the low power consumption right so it's all about consumption right so it's all about consumption right so it's all about reusing information and and making the reusing information and and making the reusing information and and making the most of what we already have and so um most of what we already have and so um most of what we already have and so um that's why basically again what you see

that's why basically again what you see that's why basically again what you see biologically is you know neuromodulators biologically is you know neuromodulators biologically is you know neuromodulators for instance these chemicals in the for instance these chemicals in the for instance these chemicals in the brain like neopine phrine dopamine uh brain like neopine phrine dopamine uh brain like neopine phrine dopamine uh serotonin these are chemicals that are serotonin these are chemicals that are serotonin these are chemicals that are released during moments that tend to be released during moments that tend to be released during moments that tend to be biologically significant surprise fear biologically significant surprise fear biologically significant surprise fear stress Etc and so these chemicals stress Etc and so these chemicals stress Etc and so these chemicals promote lasting plasticity right promote lasting plasticity right promote lasting plasticity right essentially some mechanisms by which the essentially some mechanisms by which the essentially some mechanisms by which the brain can say prioritize the information brain can say prioritize the information brain can say prioritize the information that you carry with you into the future that you carry with you into the future that you carry with you into the future attention is a big factor as well our attention is a big factor as well our attention is a big factor as well our ability to focus our attention on what's ability to focus our attention on what's ability to focus our attention on what's important and so uh there's different important and so uh there's different important and so uh there's different schools of thought on training attention schools of thought on training attention schools of thought on training attention for instance um uh so one of my for instance um uh so one of my for instance um uh so one of my colleagues amishi jaw she wrote a book colleagues amishi jaw she wrote a book colleagues amishi jaw she wrote a book called Peak mind and talks about called Peak mind and talks about called Peak mind and talks about mindfulness as a method for improving mindfulness as a method for improving mindfulness as a method for improving attention uh and focus uh so she works a attention uh and focus uh so she works a attention uh and focus uh so she works a lot with military like Navy Seals and lot with military like Navy Seals and lot with military like Navy Seals and stuff to do do this kind of work um with stuff to do do this kind of work um with stuff to do do this kind of work um with mindfulness meditation um Adam gazali mindfulness meditation um Adam gazali mindfulness meditation um Adam gazali another one of my friends and colleagues another one of my friends and colleagues another one of my friends and colleagues has work on kind of training through has work on kind of training through has work on kind of training through video games actually as a way of video games actually as a way of video games actually as a way of training attention and so uh it's not training attention and so uh it's not training attention and so uh it's not clear to me you know one of the clear to me you know one of the clear to me you know one of the challenges though in training is you challenges though in training is you challenges though in training is you tend to overfit to the thing that you're tend to overfit to the thing that you're tend to overfit to the thing that you're trying to optimize right so you tend to trying to optimize right so you tend to trying to optimize right so you tend to if I'm looking at a video game I can if I'm looking at a video game I can if I'm looking at a video game I can definitely get better at paying definitely get better at paying definitely get better at paying attention in the context of the video attention in the context of the video attention in the context of the video game but you transfer it to the outside game but you transfer it to the outside game but you transfer it to the outside world that's very controversial world that's very controversial world that's very controversial the implication there is that attention

the implication there is that attention the implication there is that attention is a fundamental component of is a fundamental component of is a fundamental component of remembering something allocating remembering something allocating remembering something allocating attention to it and then attention might attention to it and then attention might attention to it and then attention might be something that you could train how be something that you could train how be something that you could train how you allocate attention and how you hold you allocate attention and how you hold you allocate attention and how you hold attention on a thing I can say that in attention on a thing I can say that in attention on a thing I can say that in fact we do in certain ways right so if fact we do in certain ways right so if fact we do in certain ways right so if you are an expert in something you are you are an expert in something you are you are an expert in something you are training attention so we did this one training attention so we did this one training attention so we did this one study of expertise in the brain and uh study of expertise in the brain and uh study of expertise in the brain and uh you so people used to think say if you so people used to think say if you so people used to think say if you're a bird expert or something right you're a bird expert or something right you're a bird expert or something right people will go like if you get really people will go like if you get really people will go like if you get really into this world of birds you start to into this world of birds you start to into this world of birds you start to see the differences in your visual see the differences in your visual see the differences in your visual cortex is tuned up and it's all about cortex is tuned up and it's all about cortex is tuned up and it's all about plasticity the visual cortex and vision plasticity the visual cortex and vision plasticity the visual cortex and vision researchers love to say everything's researchers love to say everything's researchers love to say everything's visual you know but but it's like we did visual you know but but it's like we did visual you know but but it's like we did the study of attention and working or E the study of attention and working or E the study of attention and working or E working memory and expertise and one of working memory and expertise and one of working memory and expertise and one of the things that surprised us were the the things that surprised us were the the things that surprised us were the biggest effects as people became experts biggest effects as people became experts biggest effects as people became experts in identifying these different kinds of in identifying these different kinds of in identifying these different kinds of just crazy objects that we made up as just crazy objects that we made up as just crazy objects that we made up as they develop this expertise of being they develop this expertise of being they develop this expertise of being able to identify what made them able to identify what made them able to identify what made them different from each other and what made different from each other and what made different from each other and what made them unique we were actually seeing them unique we were actually seeing them unique we were actually seeing massive increases in activity in the massive increases in activity in the massive increases in activity in the prefrontal cortex and this fits with prefrontal cortex and this fits with prefrontal cortex and this fits with some of the studies of Chess experts and some of the studies of Chess experts and some of the studies of Chess experts and so forth that it's not so much that you so forth that it's not so much that you so forth that it's not so much that you learn the patterns passively you learn learn the patterns passively you learn learn the patterns passively you learn what to look for you learn what's what to look for you learn what's what to look for you learn what's important what's not right and you can important what's not right and you can important what's not right and you can see this in any kind of expert see this in any kind of expert see this in any kind of expert professional athlete they're looking professional athlete they're looking professional athlete they're looking three steps ahead of where they're three steps ahead of where they're three steps ahead of where they're supposed to be so that's kind of a supposed to be so that's kind of a supposed to be so that's kind of a training of attention and those are also training of attention and those are also training of attention and those are also what you'd call Expert memory skills so

what you'd call Expert memory skills so what you'd call Expert memory skills so um if you take the memory athletes I um if you take the memory athletes I um if you take the memory athletes I know that's something we're both know that's something we're both know that's something we're both interested in and you know so these are interested in and you know so these are interested in and you know so these are people who train in these competitions people who train in these competitions people who train in these competitions and they'll memorize like a deck of and they'll memorize like a deck of and they'll memorize like a deck of cards and like a really short amount of cards and like a really short amount of cards and like a really short amount of time um there's a a great memory athlete time um there's a a great memory athlete time um there's a a great memory athlete her name I think is pronounced yenya her name I think is pronounced yenya her name I think is pronounced yenya winter soul but she uh so I think she's winter soul but she uh so I think she's winter soul but she uh so I think she's got like a giant Instagram following and got like a giant Instagram following and got like a giant Instagram following and so she had this YouTube video that went so she had this YouTube video that went so she had this YouTube video that went um where she had memorized an entire um where she had memorized an entire um where she had memorized an entire Ikea catalog right and so how do people Ikea catalog right and so how do people Ikea catalog right and so how do people do this by all accounts from people who do this by all accounts from people who do this by all accounts from people who become memory athletes they weren't born become memory athletes they weren't born become memory athletes they weren't born with some extraordinary memory but they with some extraordinary memory but they with some extraordinary memory but they practic strategies over and over and practic strategies over and over and practic strategies over and over and over again the strategy that they use over again the strategy that they use over again the strategy that they use for memorizing a particular thing it can for memorizing a particular thing it can for memorizing a particular thing it can become automatic and you can just deploy become automatic and you can just deploy become automatic and you can just deploy it in an instant right so again it's not it in an instant right so again it's not it in an instant right so again it's not necessarily going to one strategy for necessarily going to one strategy for necessarily going to one strategy for learning the order of a deck ofs cards learning the order of a deck ofs cards learning the order of a deck ofs cards might not help you for something else might not help you for something else might not help you for something else that you need like you know remembering that you need like you know remembering that you need like you know remembering your way around Austin Texas but it's your way around Austin Texas but it's your way around Austin Texas but it's going to be these whatever you're going to be these whatever you're going to be these whatever you're interested in you can optimize for that interested in you can optimize for that interested in you can optimize for that and that's just a natural byproduct of and that's just a natural byproduct of and that's just a natural byproduct of expertise there's certain hacks there's expertise there's certain hacks there's expertise there's certain hacks there's something called The Memory Palace that something called The Memory Palace that something called The Memory Palace that I've played with I don't know if you're I've played with I don't know if you're I've played with I don't know if you're familiar with that whole technique and familiar with that whole technique and familiar with that whole technique and it works it's interesting so uh another it works it's interesting so uh another it works it's interesting so uh another thing I recommend for people a lot is I thing I recommend for people a lot is I thing I recommend for people a lot is I use anky a lot every day it's a app that use anky a lot every day it's a app that use anky a lot every day it's a app that does space repetition so I think medical does space repetition so I think medical does space repetition so I think medical students and like students use this a

students and like students use this a students and like students use this a lot to remember a lot of different lot to remember a lot of different lot to remember a lot of different things oh yeah okay we can come back to things oh yeah okay we can come back to things oh yeah okay we can come back to this but yeah sure it's the whole this but yeah sure it's the whole this but yeah sure it's the whole concept of space repetition you just uh concept of space repetition you just uh concept of space repetition you just uh when when the thing is fresh you kind of when when the thing is fresh you kind of when when the thing is fresh you kind of have to remind yourself of it a lot and have to remind yourself of it a lot and have to remind yourself of it a lot and then over time you can wait uh a week a then over time you can wait uh a week a then over time you can wait uh a week a month a year before you have to recall month a year before you have to recall month a year before you have to recall the thing again and that way you the thing again and that way you the thing again and that way you essentially have something like note essentially have something like note essentially have something like note cards the can have tens of thousands of cards the can have tens of thousands of cards the can have tens of thousands of and can only spend 30 minutes a day and and can only spend 30 minutes a day and and can only spend 30 minutes a day and actually be refreshing all of that actually be refreshing all of that actually be refreshing all of that information all that knowledge it's information all that knowledge it's information all that knowledge it's really great and then for uh Memory really great and then for uh Memory really great and then for uh Memory Palace is a technique that allows you to Palace is a technique that allows you to Palace is a technique that allows you to remember things like the Ikea catalog or remember things like the Ikea catalog or remember things like the Ikea catalog or by placing them visually in a place that by placing them visually in a place that by placing them visually in a place that you're really familiar with like I'm you're really familiar with like I'm you're really familiar with like I'm really familiar with this place so I can really familiar with this place so I can really familiar with this place so I can put uh uh numbers or facts or whatever put uh uh numbers or facts or whatever put uh uh numbers or facts or whatever you want to remember you can walk along you want to remember you can walk along you want to remember you can walk along that little pal reminds you it's cool that little pal reminds you it's cool that little pal reminds you it's cool like there's stuff like that that I like there's stuff like that that I like there's stuff like that that I think athletes memory athletes could use think athletes memory athletes could use think athletes memory athletes could use but I think also regular people can use but I think also regular people can use but I think also regular people can use one of the things I have to solve for one of the things I have to solve for one of the things I have to solve for myself is how to remember names I'm myself is how to remember names I'm myself is how to remember names I'm horrible at it yeah I think is because horrible at it yeah I think is because horrible at it yeah I think is because when people introduce when people introduce when people introduce themselves I have the the social anxiety themselves I have the the social anxiety themselves I have the the social anxiety of the interaction where I'm like I know of the interaction where I'm like I know of the interaction where I'm like I know I should be remembering that but I have I should be remembering that but I have I should be remembering that but I have I'm freaking out internally about I'm freaking out internally about I'm freaking out internally about social interaction in general and so social interaction in general and so social interaction in general and so therefore I forget immediately so I'm therefore I forget immediately so I'm therefore I forget immediately so I'm looking for good tricks for that so uh

looking for good tricks for that so uh looking for good tricks for that so uh I'm I feel like we've got a lot in I'm I feel like we've got a lot in I'm I feel like we've got a lot in common because when people introduce common because when people introduce common because when people introduce themselves to me it's almost like I have themselves to me it's almost like I have themselves to me it's almost like I have this like just blank blackout for a this like just blank blackout for a this like just blank blackout for a moment and then I'm just looking at them moment and then I'm just looking at them moment and then I'm just looking at them like what happened I look away or like what happened I look away or like what happened I look away or something what's wrong with me yeah so I something what's wrong with me yeah so I something what's wrong with me yeah so I mean I'm totally with you on this the mean I'm totally with you on this the mean I'm totally with you on this the reason why it's hard is that there's no reason why it's hard is that there's no reason why it's hard is that there's no reason should be able to remember names reason should be able to remember names reason should be able to remember names because when you say remembering a name because when you say remembering a name because when you say remembering a name you're not really remembering a name you're not really remembering a name you're not really remembering a name maybe in my case you are but most of the maybe in my case you are but most of the maybe in my case you are but most of the time you're associating a name with a time you're associating a name with a time you're associating a name with a with a face and an identity and that's a with a face and an identity and that's a with a face and an identity and that's a completely arbitrary thing right I mean completely arbitrary thing right I mean completely arbitrary thing right I mean maybe in the olden days somebody named maybe in the olden days somebody named maybe in the olden days somebody named Miller it's like they're actually making Miller it's like they're actually making Miller it's like they're actually making flower or something like that but you flower or something like that but you flower or something like that but you know for the most part it's like uh know for the most part it's like uh know for the most part it's like uh these names are just utterly arbitrary these names are just utterly arbitrary these names are just utterly arbitrary so you have no thing to latch on to and so you have no thing to latch on to and so you have no thing to latch on to and so it's not really a thing that our so it's not really a thing that our so it's not really a thing that our brain does very well to learn brain does very well to learn brain does very well to learn meaningless arbitrary stuff so what you meaningless arbitrary stuff so what you meaningless arbitrary stuff so what you need to do is build connection somehow need to do is build connection somehow need to do is build connection somehow visualize a connection and sometimes visualize a connection and sometimes visualize a connection and sometimes it's it's obvious or sometimes it's not it's it's obvious or sometimes it's not it's it's obvious or sometimes it's not I'm trying to think of a good one for I'm trying to think of a good one for I'm trying to think of a good one for you now but the first thing I think of you now but the first thing I think of you now but the first thing I think of is Lex Luthor but yeah so I Le doesn't is Lex Luthor but yeah so I Le doesn't is Lex Luthor but yeah so I Le doesn't Lex Luthor wear a a suit I think I I Lex Luthor wear a a suit I think I I Lex Luthor wear a a suit I think I I know he has a shaved head though he's know he has a shaved head though he's know he has a shaved head though he's bald which you're not you got a great bald which you're not you got a great bald which you're not you got a great head if I trade hair with you any day head if I trade hair with you any day head if I trade hair with you any day but but like you know but something like but but like you know but something like but but like you know but something like that but if I can come up with something that but if I can come up with something that but if I can come up with something like I could say okay so Lex Luther is like I could say okay so Lex Luther is like I could say okay so Lex Luther is this criminal mastermind and then I just this criminal mastermind and then I just this criminal mastermind and then I just imagine you talked about stabbing or

imagine you talked about stabbing or imagine you talked about stabbing or whatever whatever whatever earlier kind of connected and that's it earlier kind of connected and that's it earlier kind of connected and that's it yeah yeah and I but I'm serious though yeah yeah and I but I'm serious though yeah yeah and I but I'm serious though that these kinds of weird associations that these kinds of weird associations that these kinds of weird associations now building a richer Network I mean one now building a richer Network I mean one now building a richer Network I mean one of the things that I find is if I've of the things that I find is if I've of the things that I find is if I've like you can have somebody's name that's like you can have somebody's name that's like you can have somebody's name that's just totally generic like John Smith or just totally generic like John Smith or just totally generic like John Smith or something not that no offense to people something not that no offense to people something not that no offense to people that that name but you know I if I see a that that name but you know I if I see a that that name but you know I if I see a generic name like that but I've read generic name like that but I've read generic name like that but I've read John Smith's papers academically and John Smith's papers academically and John Smith's papers academically and then I meet John Smith at a conference I then I meet John Smith at a conference I then I meet John Smith at a conference I can immediately associate that name with can immediately associate that name with can immediately associate that name with that face because I have this that face because I have this that face because I have this pre-existing Network to lock everything pre-existing Network to lock everything pre-existing Network to lock everything into right and so you can build that into right and so you can build that into right and so you can build that Network and that's what the method of Network and that's what the method of Network and that's what the method of loai or the Memory Palace technique is loai or the Memory Palace technique is loai or the Memory Palace technique is all about is you have a pre-existing all about is you have a pre-existing all about is you have a pre-existing structure in your head of like your structure in your head of like your structure in your head of like your childhood home or this mental Palace childhood home or this mental Palace childhood home or this mental Palace that you've created for yourself and so that you've created for yourself and so that you've created for yourself and so now you can put arbitrary pieces of now you can put arbitrary pieces of now you can put arbitrary pieces of information in different locations in information in different locations in information in different locations in that mental structure of yours and then that mental structure of yours and then that mental structure of yours and then you can walk through the different path you can walk through the different path you can walk through the different path and find all the pieces of information and find all the pieces of information and find all the pieces of information you're looking for so the method of Loi you're looking for so the method of Loi you're looking for so the method of Loi is a great method for just learning is a great method for just learning is a great method for just learning arbitrary things because it allows you arbitrary things because it allows you arbitrary things because it allows you to link them together and get that cue to link them together and get that cue to link them together and get that cue that you need to pop in and find that you need to pop in and find that you need to pop in and find everything right we should maybe Linger everything right we should maybe Linger everything right we should maybe Linger on this Memory Palace thing just to make on this Memory Palace thing just to make on this Memory Palace thing just to make obvious cuz when people were describing obvious cuz when people were describing obvious cuz when people were describing to me a while ago what this is it seems to me a while ago what this is it seems to me a while ago what this is it seems insane I just you literally think of a

insane I just you literally think of a insane I just you literally think of a place like a childhood home or a home place like a childhood home or a home place like a childhood home or a home that you're really that you're really that you're really visually uh familiar with and you visually uh familiar with and you visually uh familiar with and you literally place in that literally place in that literally place in that three-dimensional space facts or people three-dimensional space facts or people three-dimensional space facts or people or whatever you want to remember and you or whatever you want to remember and you or whatever you want to remember and you just walk in your mind just walk in your mind just walk in your mind along that place visually and you can along that place visually and you can along that place visually and you can remember uh remind yourself of the remember uh remind yourself of the remember uh remind yourself of the different things one of the limitations different things one of the limitations different things one of the limitations is there is a sequence to it m so it's I is there is a sequence to it m so it's I is there is a sequence to it m so it's I think your brain somehow you need you think your brain somehow you need you think your brain somehow you need you can't just like go upstairs right away can't just like go upstairs right away can't just like go upstairs right away or something you have to like walk along or something you have to like walk along or something you have to like walk along the the room so it's really great for the the room so it's really great for the the room so it's really great for remembering sequences but it's also not remembering sequences but it's also not remembering sequences but it's also not great for remembering like individual great for remembering like individual great for remembering like individual facts out of context so the full context facts out of context so the full context facts out of context so the full context of the tour I think is of the tour I think is of the tour I think is important uh but it's a it's fascinating important uh but it's a it's fascinating important uh but it's a it's fascinating how the mind is able to do that when you how the mind is able to do that when you how the mind is able to do that when you ground these pieces of knowledge into ground these pieces of knowledge into ground these pieces of knowledge into something that you remember well already something that you remember well already something that you remember well already especially visually fascinating you can especially visually fascinating you can especially visually fascinating you can just do that for any kind of sequence just do that for any kind of sequence just do that for any kind of sequence I'm sure she used something like this I'm sure she used something like this I'm sure she used something like this for the for Ikea for the for Ikea for the for Ikea catalog absolutely absolutely um and I catalog absolutely absolutely um and I catalog absolutely absolutely um and I think the the principle here is again I think the the principle here is again I think the the principle here is again I was telling you this idea that memories was telling you this idea that memories was telling you this idea that memories can compete with each other right well I can compete with each other right well I can compete with each other right well I like to use this example and maybe like to use this example and maybe like to use this example and maybe someday I'll Reg at this but I've used someday I'll Reg at this but I've used someday I'll Reg at this but I've used it a lot recently is like imagine if it a lot recently is like imagine if it a lot recently is like imagine if this were my desk it could be cluttered this were my desk it could be cluttered this were my desk it could be cluttered with a zillion different things right so with a zillion different things right so with a zillion different things right so imagine it's just cluttered with a whole imagine it's just cluttered with a whole imagine it's just cluttered with a whole bunch of yellow posted notes and on one bunch of yellow posted notes and on one bunch of yellow posted notes and on one of them I put my bank password on it

of them I put my bank password on it of them I put my bank password on it right well it's going to take me forever right well it's going to take me forever right well it's going to take me forever to find it I might you know it's just to find it I might you know it's just to find it I might you know it's just going to be buried under all these other going to be buried under all these other going to be buried under all these other posted on but if it's like hot pink it's posted on but if it's like hot pink it's posted on but if it's like hot pink it's going to stand out and I find it really going to stand out and I find it really going to stand out and I find it really easily right so that's one way in which easily right so that's one way in which easily right so that's one way in which if things are distinctive if you've if things are distinctive if you've if things are distinctive if you've processed information in a very processed information in a very processed information in a very distinctive way then you can have a distinctive way then you can have a distinctive way then you can have a memory that's going to last um and memory that's going to last um and memory that's going to last um and that's very good for instance for name that's very good for instance for name that's very good for instance for name face associations if I get something face associations if I get something face associations if I get something distinctive about you you know that it's distinctive about you you know that it's distinctive about you you know that it's like that you've got very short hair and like that you've got very short hair and like that you've got very short hair and maybe I can make the association with maybe I can make the association with maybe I can make the association with Lex Luthor that way or something like Lex Luthor that way or something like Lex Luthor that way or something like that right you know but I I get that right you know but I I get that right you know but I I get something very specific that's a great something very specific that's a great something very specific that's a great cue but the other part of it is what if cue but the other part of it is what if cue but the other part of it is what if I just organized my notes so that I have I just organized my notes so that I have I just organized my notes so that I have my finances in one pile and I have my my finances in one pile and I have my my finances in one pile and I have my like uh reminders my to-do list in one like uh reminders my to-do list in one like uh reminders my to-do list in one pile for so I organized them well then I pile for so I organized them well then I pile for so I organized them well then I know exactly if I'm going for my banking know exactly if I'm going for my banking know exactly if I'm going for my banking you know P my bank password I could go you know P my bank password I could go you know P my bank password I could go to the finance pile right so the method to the finance pile right so the method to the finance pile right so the method of lowai works or memory palaces work of lowai works or memory palaces work of lowai works or memory palaces work because they give you a way of because they give you a way of because they give you a way of organizing um there's a school of organizing um there's a school of organizing um there's a school of thought that says that episodic memory thought that says that episodic memory thought that says that episodic memory evolved from this like kind of knowledge evolved from this like kind of knowledge evolved from this like kind of knowledge of space and you know basically this of space and you know basically this of space and you know basically this primitive abilities to figure out where primitive abilities to figure out where primitive abilities to figure out where you are and so people explain the method you are and so people explain the method you are and so people explain the method Loi that way and and you know whether or Loi that way and and you know whether or Loi that way and and you know whether or not the evolutionary argument is true not the evolutionary argument is true not the evolutionary argument is true the meth ofi is not at all special so if the meth ofi is not at all special so if the meth ofi is not at all special so if you don't you're not a good visualizer you don't you're not a good visualizer you don't you're not a good visualizer um uh stories are a good one so a lot of um uh stories are a good one so a lot of um uh stories are a good one so a lot of memory athletes will use stories and

memory athletes will use stories and memory athletes will use stories and they'll go like if you're memorizing a they'll go like if you're memorizing a they'll go like if you're memorizing a deck of cards they have a little code deck of cards they have a little code deck of cards they have a little code for the different like uh um like the for the different like uh um like the for the different like uh um like the king and the Jack and the 10 and so king and the Jack and the 10 and so king and the Jack and the 10 and so forth and they'll make up a story about forth and they'll make up a story about forth and they'll make up a story about things that they're doing and that'll things that they're doing and that'll things that they're doing and that'll work songs are a great one right I mean work songs are a great one right I mean work songs are a great one right I mean it's like I can still remember there's it's like I can still remember there's it's like I can still remember there's this obscure episode of the TV show this obscure episode of the TV show this obscure episode of the TV show Cheers they sing a song about Albania Cheers they sing a song about Albania Cheers they sing a song about Albania that he uses to memorize all these facts that he uses to memorize all these facts that he uses to memorize all these facts about Albania I could still sing that about Albania I could still sing that about Albania I could still sing that song to song to song to you it's just I saw it on a TV show you you it's just I saw it on a TV show you you it's just I saw it on a TV show you know uh so what you mentioned space know uh so what you mentioned space know uh so what you mentioned space repetition so what um do you like this repetition so what um do you like this repetition so what um do you like this process maybe can you explain it oh yeah process maybe can you explain it oh yeah process maybe can you explain it oh yeah if I'm trying to memorize something if I'm trying to memorize something if I'm trying to memorize something let's say if I have an hour to memorize let's say if I have an hour to memorize let's say if I have an hour to memorize as many Spanish words as I can if I just as many Spanish words as I can if I just as many Spanish words as I can if I just try to do like half an hour tomorrow and try to do like half an hour tomorrow and try to do like half an hour tomorrow and then I later in the day I do half an then I later in the day I do half an then I later in the day I do half an hour I won't retain that information as hour I won't retain that information as hour I won't retain that information as long as if I do half an hour today and long as if I do half an hour today and long as if I do half an hour today and half an hour one week from now and so half an hour one week from now and so half an hour one week from now and so doing that extra spacing should help me doing that extra spacing should help me doing that extra spacing should help me retain the information better now retain the information better now retain the information better now there's a interesting boundary condition there's a interesting boundary condition there's a interesting boundary condition which is it depends on when you need which is it depends on when you need which is it depends on when you need that information so many of us you know that information so many of us you know that information so many of us you know for me like I I can't remember so much for me like I I can't remember so much for me like I I can't remember so much from college and high school cuz I from college and high school cuz I from college and high school cuz I crammed cuz I just did everything at the crammed cuz I just did everything at the crammed cuz I just did everything at the last minute last minute last minute and sometimes I would literally study and sometimes I would literally study and sometimes I would literally study like you know in the hallway right like you know in the hallway right like you know in the hallway right before the test that was great because before the test that was great because before the test that was great because what would happen is is I just had that what would happen is is I just had that what would happen is is I just had that information right there and so actually information right there and so actually information right there and so actually not spacing can really help you if you

not spacing can really help you if you not spacing can really help you if you need it very quickly right but the need it very quickly right but the need it very quickly right but the problem is is that you tend to forget it problem is is that you tend to forget it problem is is that you tend to forget it later on but on the other hand if you later on but on the other hand if you later on but on the other hand if you space things out you get a benefit for space things out you get a benefit for space things out you get a benefit for later on retention and so there's many later on retention and so there's many later on retention and so there's many different explanations we have a different explanations we have a different explanations we have a computational model of this it's computational model of this it's computational model of this it's currently under revision um but in our currently under revision um but in our currently under revision um but in our computer model what we say is is that an computer model what we say is is that an computer model what we say is is that an easy maybe a good way of thinking about easy maybe a good way of thinking about easy maybe a good way of thinking about this is this conversation that you and I this is this conversation that you and I this is this conversation that you and I are having It's associated with a are having It's associated with a are having It's associated with a particular context a particular place in particular context a particular place in particular context a particular place in time and so all these little cues that time and so all these little cues that time and so all these little cues that are in the background these little are in the background these little are in the background these little guitar sculptures that you have and that guitar sculptures that you have and that guitar sculptures that you have and that big light umbrella thing right all these big light umbrella thing right all these big light umbrella thing right all these things are part of my memory for what things are part of my memory for what things are part of my memory for what we're talking about the content so we're talking about the content so we're talking about the content so now later on you're sitting around and now later on you're sitting around and now later on you're sitting around and you're at home drinking a beer and you're at home drinking a beer and you're at home drinking a beer and you're thinking God what a strange you're thinking God what a strange you're thinking God what a strange interview that was right so now you're interview that was right so now you're interview that was right so now you're trying to remember it but the context is trying to remember it but the context is trying to remember it but the context is different so your current situation different so your current situation different so your current situation doesn't match up with the memory that doesn't match up with the memory that doesn't match up with the memory that you pulled up there's error there's a you pulled up there's error there's a you pulled up there's error there's a mismatch between what you pulled up and mismatch between what you pulled up and mismatch between what you pulled up and your current context and so in our model your current context and so in our model your current context and so in our model what you start to do is you start to what you start to do is you start to what you start to do is you start to erase or alter the parts of the memory erase or alter the parts of the memory erase or alter the parts of the memory that are associated with the specific that are associated with the specific that are associated with the specific place and time and you heighten the place and time and you heighten the place and time and you heighten the information about the content and so if information about the content and so if information about the content and so if you remember this information in you remember this information in you remember this information in different times and different places different times and different places different times and different places it's more accessible at different times it's more accessible at different times it's more accessible at different times and different places because it's not and different places because it's not and different places because it's not overfitted in a in an AI kind of way of

overfitted in a in an AI kind of way of overfitted in a in an AI kind of way of thinking about things it's not thinking about things it's not thinking about things it's not overfitted to one particular context but overfitted to one particular context but overfitted to one particular context but that's also why the memories that we that's also why the memories that we that's also why the memories that we call upon the most also feel kind of call upon the most also feel kind of call upon the most also feel kind of like they're just things that we read like they're just things that we read like they're just things that we read about almost you don't vividly reimagine about almost you don't vividly reimagine about almost you don't vividly reimagine them right it's like they're just these them right it's like they're just these them right it's like they're just these things that just come to us like facts things that just come to us like facts things that just come to us like facts right yeah and it's a little bit right yeah and it's a little bit right yeah and it's a little bit different than semantic memory but it's different than semantic memory but it's different than semantic memory but it's like basically the these events that we like basically the these events that we like basically the these events that we have recalled every you know over and have recalled every you know over and have recalled every you know over and over and over again we keep updating over and over again we keep updating over and over again we keep updating that memory so it's less and less tied that memory so it's less and less tied that memory so it's less and less tied to the original experience but then we to the original experience but then we to the original experience but then we have those other ones which it's like have those other ones which it's like have those other ones which it's like you just get a reminder of that very you just get a reminder of that very you just get a reminder of that very specific context you smell something you specific context you smell something you specific context you smell something you hear a song you see a place that you hear a song you see a place that you hear a song you see a place that you haven't been to in a while and boom it haven't been to in a while and boom it haven't been to in a while and boom it just comes back back to you and that's just comes back back to you and that's just comes back back to you and that's the exact opposite of what you get with the exact opposite of what you get with the exact opposite of what you get with spacing right that's so fascinating so spacing right that's so fascinating so spacing right that's so fascinating so with space repetition one of its powers with space repetition one of its powers with space repetition one of its powers is that you lose attachment to a is that you lose attachment to a is that you lose attachment to a particular particular particular context but then it context but then it context but then it loses the the intensity of the flavor of loses the the intensity of the flavor of loses the the intensity of the flavor of the memory MH that's interesting that's the memory MH that's interesting that's the memory MH that's interesting that's so interesting yeah but you know at the so interesting yeah but you know at the so interesting yeah but you know at the same time it becomes stronger in the same time it becomes stronger in the same time it becomes stronger in the sense that the content becomes stronger sense that the content becomes stronger sense that the content becomes stronger yeah so it's used for uh for learning yeah so it's used for uh for learning yeah so it's used for uh for learning languages for learning facts for languages for learning facts for languages for learning facts for learning for you know for that generic learning for you know for that generic learning for you know for that generic semantic information type of memories semantic information type of memories semantic information type of memories yeah and and I think this this falls yeah and and I think this this falls yeah and and I think this this falls into a category we've done other into a category we've done other into a category we've done other modeling um one of these is a published modeling um one of these is a published modeling um one of these is a published study in pla computational biology where study in pla computational biology where study in pla computational biology where we showed that uh another way which is I we showed that uh another way which is I we showed that uh another way which is I think related to the spacing effect is think related to the spacing effect is think related to the spacing effect is What's called the testing effect so uh

What's called the testing effect so uh What's called the testing effect so uh the idea is is that if you're trying to the idea is is that if you're trying to the idea is is that if you're trying to learn words uh let's say in Spanish or learn words uh let's say in Spanish or learn words uh let's say in Spanish or something like that and this doesn't something like that and this doesn't something like that and this doesn't have to be words it could be anything have to be words it could be anything have to be words it could be anything you test yourself on the words and that you test yourself on the words and that you test yourself on the words and that act of testing yourself helps you retain act of testing yourself helps you retain act of testing yourself helps you retain it better over time than if you just it better over time than if you just it better over time than if you just studied it right and studied it right and studied it right and so from traditional learning theories so from traditional learning theories so from traditional learning theories some learning theories anyway this seems some learning theories anyway this seems some learning theories anyway this seems weird why would you do better giving weird why would you do better giving weird why would you do better giving yourself this extra error from testing yourself this extra error from testing yourself this extra error from testing yourself rather than just you know yourself rather than just you know yourself rather than just you know giving yourself perfect input that's a giving yourself perfect input that's a giving yourself perfect input that's a replica of what it is that you're trying replica of what it is that you're trying replica of what it is that you're trying to learn and I think the reason is is to learn and I think the reason is is to learn and I think the reason is is that you get better retention from that that you get better retention from that that you get better retention from that error that mismatch that we talked about error that mismatch that we talked about error that mismatch that we talked about right so what's happening in our model right so what's happening in our model right so what's happening in our model it's actually conceptually kind of it's actually conceptually kind of it's actually conceptually kind of similar to what happens with back propop similar to what happens with back propop similar to what happens with back propop in uh AI so or neural networks and so in uh AI so or neural networks and so in uh AI so or neural networks and so the idea is is that you expose here's the idea is is that you expose here's the idea is is that you expose here's the bad connections and here's the good the bad connections and here's the good the bad connections and here's the good connections and so we can keep the the connections and so we can keep the the connections and so we can keep the the parts of the cell assembly that are good parts of the cell assembly that are good parts of the cell assembly that are good for the memory and lose the ones that for the memory and lose the ones that for the memory and lose the ones that are not so good but if you don't stress are not so good but if you don't stress are not so good but if you don't stress test the memory you haven't exposed it test the memory you haven't exposed it test the memory you haven't exposed it to the error fully and so that's why I to the error fully and so that's why I to the error fully and so that's why I think this is kind of this is a thing think this is kind of this is a thing think this is kind of this is a thing that I come back to over and over again that I come back to over and over again that I come back to over and over again is that you will retain information is that you will retain information is that you will retain information better if you're constantly pushing better if you're constantly pushing better if you're constantly pushing yourself to your limit right if you are yourself to your limit right if you are yourself to your limit right if you are feeling like you're coasting then you're feeling like you're coasting then you're feeling like you're coasting then you're actually not learning so it's like actually not learning so it's like actually not learning so it's like always you should always be stress

always you should always be stress always you should always be stress testing the memory system yeah and feel testing the memory system yeah and feel testing the memory system yeah and feel good about it you know even though good about it you know even though good about it you know even though everyone tells me oh my memory is everyone tells me oh my memory is everyone tells me oh my memory is terrible in the moment they're over terrible in the moment they're over terrible in the moment they're over confident about what they'll retain confident about what they'll retain confident about what they'll retain later on so it it's fascinating and so later on so it it's fascinating and so later on so it it's fascinating and so what happens is when you test yourself what happens is when you test yourself what happens is when you test yourself you're like oh my God I thought I knew you're like oh my God I thought I knew you're like oh my God I thought I knew that but I don't and so it can be that but I don't and so it can be that but I don't and so it can be demoralizing until you get around that demoralizing until you get around that demoralizing until you get around that and you realize hey this is the way that and you realize hey this is the way that and you realize hey this is the way that I learn this is this is how I learn best I learn this is this is how I learn best I learn this is this is how I learn best it's like if you're trying to you know it's like if you're trying to you know it's like if you're trying to you know star in a movie or something like that star in a movie or something like that star in a movie or something like that you don't just sit around reading the you don't just sit around reading the you don't just sit around reading the script you actually act it out and script you actually act it out and script you actually act it out and you're going to botch those lines from you're going to botch those lines from you're going to botch those lines from time to time right you know there's an time to time right you know there's an time to time right you know there's an interesting moment you probably interesting moment you probably interesting moment you probably experienced this I remember uh good experienced this I remember uh good experienced this I remember uh good friend of mine Joe Rogan I was on his friend of mine Joe Rogan I was on his friend of mine Joe Rogan I was on his podcast and we were randomly talking about and we were randomly talking about soccer football somebody I grew up soccer football somebody I grew up soccer football somebody I grew up watching Diego armanda mardona one of watching Diego armanda mardona one of watching Diego armanda mardona one of the greatest soccer players of all time the greatest soccer players of all time the greatest soccer players of all time and we were talking about him and his and we were talking about him and his and we were talking about him and his career and so on career and so on career and so on and Joe asked me if he's still and Joe asked me if he's still and Joe asked me if he's still now and I said now and I said now and I said yeah I don't know why I thought yeah yeah I don't know why I thought yeah yeah I don't know why I thought yeah because that was a perfect example of because that was a perfect example of because that was a perfect example of memories he he passed away I tweeted memories he he passed away I tweeted memories he he passed away I tweeted about it how heartbroken I was all this about it how heartbroken I was all this about it how heartbroken I was all this kind of stuff like a year before I know

kind of stuff like a year before I know kind of stuff like a year before I know this but in my mind I went back to the this but in my mind I went back to the this but in my mind I went back to the thing I've done many times in my head thing I've done many times in my head thing I've done many times in my head visualizing some of the Epic ronti had visualizing some of the Epic ronti had visualizing some of the Epic ronti had on goal and so on so for me he's alive on goal and so on so for me he's alive on goal and so on so for me he's alive so I'm and part of the also the so I'm and part of the also the so I'm and part of the also the conversation when you're talking to Joey conversation when you're talking to Joey conversation when you're talking to Joey there's stress and like your the focus there's stress and like your the focus there's stress and like your the focus is allocated the attention is allocated is allocated the attention is allocated is allocated the attention is allocated in a particular way but I when I walked in a particular way but I when I walked in a particular way but I when I walked away I was like in which world was Diego away I was like in which world was Diego away I was like in which world was Diego mardona still alive like in which cuz I mardona still alive like in which cuz I mardona still alive like in which cuz I was sure in my head that he was still was sure in my head that he was still was sure in my head that he was still alive it was a it's a moment that sticks alive it was a it's a moment that sticks alive it was a it's a moment that sticks with me there's I've had a few like that with me there's I've had a few like that with me there's I've had a few like that in my life where it just kind in my life where it just kind in my life where it just kind of just of just of just it like obvious things just disappear it like obvious things just disappear it like obvious things just disappear from mind and it's cool like it it shows from mind and it's cool like it it shows from mind and it's cool like it it shows actually the power of the Mind in a actually the power of the Mind in a actually the power of the Mind in a positive sense to erase memories you positive sense to erase memories you positive sense to erase memories you want erased maybe um but I don't know I want erased maybe um but I don't know I want erased maybe um but I don't know I don't know if there's a good explanation don't know if there's a good explanation don't know if there's a good explanation for that one of the cool things that for that one of the cool things that for that one of the cool things that that I found is is that some people that I found is is that some people that I found is is that some people really just revolutionize a field by cre really just revolutionize a field by cre really just revolutionize a field by cre by creating a problem that didn't exist by creating a problem that didn't exist by creating a problem that didn't exist before it's kind of like why I love before it's kind of like why I love before it's kind of like why I love science is like I I engineering is like science is like I I engineering is like science is like I I engineering is like solving other people problems and solving other people problems and solving other people problems and science is about creating problems I'm science is about creating problems I'm science is about creating problems I'm just much more like I want to break just much more like I want to break just much more like I want to break things and you know create problems uh things and you know create problems uh things and you know create problems uh not necessarily move fast though but but not necessarily move fast though but but not necessarily move fast though but but one of my former mentors Mara Johnson one of my former mentors Mara Johnson one of my former mentors Mara Johnson who in my opinion is one of the greatest who in my opinion is one of the greatest who in my opinion is one of the greatest memory researchers of all time she comes memory researchers of all time she comes memory researchers of all time she comes up young woman in the field and this up young woman in the field and this up young woman in the field and this mostly guy field and she gets into this

mostly guy field and she gets into this mostly guy field and she gets into this idea of how do we tell the difference idea of how do we tell the difference idea of how do we tell the difference between things that we've imagined and between things that we've imagined and between things that we've imagined and things that we actually remember how do things that we actually remember how do things that we actually remember how do we tell I get some mental experience we tell I get some mental experience we tell I get some mental experience where did that mental experience come where did that mental experience come where did that mental experience come from right and it turns out this is a from right and it turns out this is a from right and it turns out this is a huge problem because essentially our huge problem because essentially our huge problem because essentially our mental experience of remembering mental experience of remembering mental experience of remembering something that happened our mental something that happened our mental something that happened our mental experience of thinking about something experience of thinking about something experience of thinking about something how do you tell the difference they're how do you tell the difference they're how do you tell the difference they're both largely constructions in our head both largely constructions in our head both largely constructions in our head and so it is very important and the way and so it is very important and the way and so it is very important and the way that you do it is I mean it's not that you do it is I mean it's not that you do it is I mean it's not perfect but the way that we often do it perfect but the way that we often do it perfect but the way that we often do it and succeed is by again using using our and succeed is by again using using our and succeed is by again using using our prefrontal cortex and really focusing on prefrontal cortex and really focusing on prefrontal cortex and really focusing on the sensory information or the place and the sensory information or the place and the sensory information or the place and time and the things that put us back time and the things that put us back time and the things that put us back into when this information happened and into when this information happened and into when this information happened and if it's something you thought about if it's something you thought about if it's something you thought about you're not going to have all of that you're not going to have all of that you're not going to have all of that Vivid detail as you do for something Vivid detail as you do for something Vivid detail as you do for something that actually happened but it doesn't that actually happened but it doesn't that actually happened but it doesn't work all the time but that that's a big work all the time but that that's a big work all the time but that that's a big thing that you have to do but it takes thing that you have to do but it takes thing that you have to do but it takes time it's slow and it's again effortful time it's slow and it's again effortful time it's slow and it's again effortful but that's what you need to remember but that's what you need to remember but that's what you need to remember accurately but what's cool and I think accurately but what's cool and I think accurately but what's cool and I think this is what you alluded to about how this is what you alluded to about how this is what you alluded to about how that was an interesting experience is that was an interesting experience is that was an interesting experience is imagination's exactly the opposite imagination's exactly the opposite imagination's exactly the opposite imagination is basically saying I'm just imagination is basically saying I'm just imagination is basically saying I'm just going to take all this information from going to take all this information from going to take all this information from memory recombine it in different ways memory recombine it in different ways memory recombine it in different ways and throw it out there and so for and throw it out there and so for and throw it out there and so for instance um Dan Shaker um and Donna instance um Dan Shaker um and Donna instance um Dan Shaker um and Donna Addis done cool work on this Demis hbus Addis done cool work on this Demis hbus Addis done cool work on this Demis hbus did work on this with Elenor Maguire and did work on this with Elenor Maguire and did work on this with Elenor Maguire and and UCL and this goes back actually to

and UCL and this goes back actually to and UCL and this goes back actually to this guy Frederick Bartlett who is this this guy Frederick Bartlett who is this this guy Frederick Bartlett who is this revolutionary memory researcher Bartlett revolutionary memory researcher Bartlett revolutionary memory researcher Bartlett he actually like rejected the whole idea he actually like rejected the whole idea he actually like rejected the whole idea of quantifying memory he said there's no of quantifying memory he said there's no of quantifying memory he said there's no statistics in my book he came from this statistics in my book he came from this statistics in my book he came from this anthropology perspective and short anthropology perspective and short anthropology perspective and short version of the story is he just asked version of the story is he just asked version of the story is he just asked people to recall things he give people people to recall things he give people people to recall things he give people stories and poems ask people to recall stories and poems ask people to recall stories and poems ask people to recall them and what he found was people's them and what he found was people's them and what he found was people's memories didn't reflect all of the memories didn't reflect all of the memories didn't reflect all of the details of what they were exposed to and details of what they were exposed to and details of what they were exposed to and they did reflect a lot more they were they did reflect a lot more they were they did reflect a lot more they were filtered through this lens of prior filtered through this lens of prior filtered through this lens of prior knowledge the the cultures that that knowledge the the cultures that that knowledge the the cultures that that they came from the beliefs that they had they came from the beliefs that they had they came from the beliefs that they had the things they knew and so what he the things they knew and so what he the things they knew and so what he concluded was that he called remembering concluded was that he called remembering concluded was that he called remembering an imaginative construction meaning that an imaginative construction meaning that an imaginative construction meaning that we don't replay the past we imagine how we don't replay the past we imagine how we don't replay the past we imagine how the past could have been by taking bits the past could have been by taking bits the past could have been by taking bits and pieces that come up in our heads and and pieces that come up in our heads and and pieces that come up in our heads and likewise he wrote this beautiful paper likewise he wrote this beautiful paper likewise he wrote this beautiful paper on imagination saying when we imagine on imagination saying when we imagine on imagination saying when we imagine something and create something we're something and create something we're something and create something we're creating it from these specific creating it from these specific creating it from these specific experiences that we've had and combining experiences that we've had and combining experiences that we've had and combining it with our general knowledge but it with our general knowledge but it with our general knowledge but instead of trying to focus it on being instead of trying to focus it on being instead of trying to focus it on being accurate and getting out one thing accurate and getting out one thing accurate and getting out one thing you're just ruthlessly recombining you're just ruthlessly recombining you're just ruthlessly recombining things without any you know any things without any you know any things without any you know any necessary kind of goal in mind um I mean necessary kind of goal in mind um I mean necessary kind of goal in mind um I mean or at least that's one kind of creation or at least that's one kind of creation or at least that's one kind of creation so imagination is so imagination is so imagination is um um um fundamentally coupled with memory in in fundamentally coupled with memory in in fundamentally coupled with memory in in both directions I think so I mean it's both directions I think so I mean it's both directions I think so I mean it's not clear that it is in everyone but one

not clear that it is in everyone but one not clear that it is in everyone but one of the things that's been studied is of the things that's been studied is of the things that's been studied is some patients who have amnesia for some patients who have amnesia for some patients who have amnesia for instance they have uh brain damage say instance they have uh brain damage say instance they have uh brain damage say to the hippocampus and if you ask them to the hippocampus and if you ask them to the hippocampus and if you ask them to imagine things that are not in front to imagine things that are not in front to imagine things that are not in front of them like imagine what could happen of them like imagine what could happen of them like imagine what could happen after I leave this room right they are after I leave this room right they are after I leave this room right they are find it very difficult to give you a find it very difficult to give you a find it very difficult to give you a scenario what could happen or if they do scenario what could happen or if they do scenario what could happen or if they do it' be more stereotype like yes this it' be more stereotype like yes this it' be more stereotype like yes this would happen this would but it's not would happen this would but it's not would happen this would but it's not like they can come up with anything like they can come up with anything like they can come up with anything that's very Vivid and creative in that that's very Vivid and creative in that that's very Vivid and creative in that sense as partly because when you have sense as partly because when you have sense as partly because when you have amnesia you're stuck in the present amnesia you're stuck in the present amnesia you're stuck in the present because the get a very good model of the because the get a very good model of the because the get a very good model of the future it really helps to have episodic future it really helps to have episodic future it really helps to have episodic memories to draw upon right and so memories to draw upon right and so memories to draw upon right and so that's that's the basic idea and in fact that's that's the basic idea and in fact that's that's the basic idea and in fact one of the most impressive things when one of the most impressive things when one of the most impressive things when people started to scan people's brains people started to scan people's brains people started to scan people's brains and ask people to remember past events and ask people to remember past events and ask people to remember past events what they found was there was this big what they found was there was this big what they found was there was this big network of the brain called the default network of the brain called the default network of the brain called the default mode Network it gets a lot of pressed mode Network it gets a lot of pressed mode Network it gets a lot of pressed because it's like thought to be because it's like thought to be because it's like thought to be important it's engaged during mind important it's engaged during mind important it's engaged during mind wandering and if I ask you to pay wandering and if I ask you to pay wandering and if I ask you to pay attention to something it only comes on attention to something it only comes on attention to something it only comes on when you stop paying attention you know when you stop paying attention you know when you stop paying attention you know so people oh it's just this kind of you so people oh it's just this kind of you so people oh it's just this kind of you know daydreaming Network and I thought know daydreaming Network and I thought know daydreaming Network and I thought this is just ridiculous research who this is just ridiculous research who this is just ridiculous research who cares you know um but then what people cares you know um but then what people cares you know um but then what people found was when people recall episodic found was when people recall episodic found was when people recall episodic memories this network gets active and uh memories this network gets active and uh memories this network gets active and uh so we started to look into it and this so we started to look into it and this so we started to look into it and this network of areas is really closely network of areas is really closely network of areas is really closely functionally interacting with the functionally interacting with the functionally interacting with the hippocampus and so in fact some would hippocampus and so in fact some would hippocampus and so in fact some would say the hippocampus is part of this

say the hippocampus is part of this say the hippocampus is part of this default Network and if you look at brain default Network and if you look at brain default Network and if you look at brain images of people or brain maps of images of people or brain maps of images of people or brain maps of Activation so to speak of people Activation so to speak of people Activation so to speak of people imagining possible scenarios of things imagining possible scenarios of things imagining possible scenarios of things that could happen in the future even that could happen in the future even that could happen in the future even things that couldn't really be very things that couldn't really be very things that couldn't really be very plausible they look very similar I mean plausible they look very similar I mean plausible they look very similar I mean you know to the naked eye they look you know to the naked eye they look you know to the naked eye they look almost the same as maps of brain almost the same as maps of brain almost the same as maps of brain activation when people remember the past activation when people remember the past activation when people remember the past according to our Theory and we've got according to our Theory and we've got according to our Theory and we've got some data to support this we've broken some data to support this we've broken some data to support this we've broken up this network into various sub pieces up this network into various sub pieces up this network into various sub pieces is that basically it's kind of taking is that basically it's kind of taking is that basically it's kind of taking apart all of our experiences and apart all of our experiences and apart all of our experiences and creating these little Lego blocks out of creating these little Lego blocks out of creating these little Lego blocks out of them and then you can put them back them and then you can put them back them and then you can put them back together if you have the right together if you have the right together if you have the right instructions to recreate these instructions to recreate these instructions to recreate these experiences that you've had but you experiences that you've had but you experiences that you've had but you could also reassemble them into New could also reassemble them into New could also reassemble them into New pieces to create a model of an event pieces to create a model of an event pieces to create a model of an event that hasn't happened yet and that's what that hasn't happened yet and that's what that hasn't happened yet and that's what we think happens and when I'm our common we think happens and when I'm our common we think happens and when I'm our common ground that we're establishing in ground that we're establishing in ground that we're establishing in language requires using those building language requires using those building language requires using those building blocks to put together a model of what's blocks to put together a model of what's blocks to put together a model of what's going on well there's a good percentage going on well there's a good percentage going on well there's a good percentage of time I personally live in in the of time I personally live in in the of time I personally live in in the imagined world I think of I have I do imagined world I think of I have I do imagined world I think of I have I do thought experiments a thought experiments a thought experiments a lot I you know take the uh the lot I you know take the uh the lot I you know take the uh the absurdity of human life as it stands and absurdity of human life as it stands and absurdity of human life as it stands and uh play it forward in all kinds of uh play it forward in all kinds of uh play it forward in all kinds of different different different directions sometimes it's rigorous directions sometimes it's rigorous directions sometimes it's rigorous thoughts thought experiments sometimes thoughts thought experiments sometimes thoughts thought experiments sometimes it's fun one so as I imagine that that it's fun one so as I imagine that that it's fun one so as I imagine that that has an effect on how I remember things has an effect on how I remember things has an effect on how I remember things and I suppose I have to be a little bit

and I suppose I have to be a little bit and I suppose I have to be a little bit careful to make sure stuff careful to make sure stuff careful to make sure stuff happened versus stuff that I just happened versus stuff that I just happened versus stuff that I just imagined happened and this also I mean imagined happened and this also I mean imagined happened and this also I mean some of my best friends are characters some of my best friends are characters some of my best friends are characters inside books that never even existed and inside books that never even existed and inside books that never even existed and I'm you know there's I'm you know there's I'm you know there's some degree to which they actually exist some degree to which they actually exist some degree to which they actually exist in my mind like these characters exist in my mind like these characters exist in my mind like these characters exist authors exist Doki exist but also uh authors exist Doki exist but also uh authors exist Doki exist but also uh Brothers Kazo I love that book it's one Brothers Kazo I love that book it's one Brothers Kazo I love that book it's one of the few books I've read of the few books I've read of the few books I've read one of the few literature books that one of the few literature books that one of the few literature books that I've read I should say I read a lot in I've read I should say I read a lot in I've read I should say I read a lot in school that I don't remember but school that I don't remember but school that I don't remember but Brothers Brothers Brothers caram they exist and I have almost kind caram they exist and I have almost kind caram they exist and I have almost kind of like conversations with them it's of like conversations with them it's of like conversations with them it's interesting it's uh it's interesting to interesting it's uh it's interesting to interesting it's uh it's interesting to allow your brain to kind of play with allow your brain to kind of play with allow your brain to kind of play with ideas of the past of the imagined and ideas of the past of the imagined and ideas of the past of the imagined and see it all as one yeah there was see it all as one yeah there was see it all as one yeah there was actually this famous ponist he's kind of actually this famous ponist he's kind of actually this famous ponist he's kind of like back then the equivalent of a like back then the equivalent of a like back then the equivalent of a memory athlete except he would go to memory athlete except he would go to memory athlete except he would go to shows and do this uh um those described shows and do this uh um those described shows and do this uh um those described by the this uh really famous neuros by the this uh really famous neuros by the this uh really famous neuros psychologist from Russia named uh Lura psychologist from Russia named uh Lura psychologist from Russia named uh Lura and so this guy was named Solomon shevi and so this guy was named Solomon shevi and so this guy was named Solomon shevi and he had this condition called and he had this condition called and he had this condition called synesthesia that basically created these synesthesia that basically created these synesthesia that basically created these weird associations between different weird associations between different weird associations between different senses that normally wouldn't go senses that normally wouldn't go senses that normally wouldn't go together so that gave him this together so that gave him this together so that gave him this incredibly vivid incredibly vivid incredibly vivid imagination that he would use to imagination that he would use to imagination that he would use to basically imagine all sorts of things basically imagine all sorts of things basically imagine all sorts of things that he would need to memorize and he that he would need to memorize and he that he would need to memorize and he would just imagine like just create

would just imagine like just create would just imagine like just create these incredibly detailed things in his these incredibly detailed things in his these incredibly detailed things in his head that allowed him to memorize all head that allowed him to memorize all head that allowed him to memorize all sorts of stuff but it also really sorts of stuff but it also really sorts of stuff but it also really haunted him by some reports that haunted him by some reports that haunted him by some reports that basically it was like he was at some basically it was like he was at some basically it was like he was at some point you know and again who knows the point you know and again who knows the point you know and again who knows the drinking was part of this but at some drinking was part of this but at some drinking was part of this but at some point had trouble differentiating his point had trouble differentiating his point had trouble differentiating his imagination from reality right and this imagination from reality right and this imagination from reality right and this is this is interesting because it's like is this is interesting because it's like is this is interesting because it's like I mean that's what psychosis is in some I mean that's what psychosis is in some I mean that's what psychosis is in some ways is you you know first of all you're ways is you you know first of all you're ways is you you know first of all you're just learning connections from just learning connections from just learning connections from prediction errors that you probably prediction errors that you probably prediction errors that you probably shouldn't learn and the other part of it shouldn't learn and the other part of it shouldn't learn and the other part of it is is that your internal signals are is is that your internal signals are is is that your internal signals are being confused with actual things in the being confused with actual things in the being confused with actual things in the outside world right well that's why a outside world right well that's why a outside world right well that's why a lot of this stuff is both feature and lot of this stuff is both feature and lot of this stuff is both feature and bug it's a double-edged sword yeah I bug it's a double-edged sword yeah I bug it's a double-edged sword yeah I mean it might be why there's such an mean it might be why there's such an mean it might be why there's such an interesting relationship between genius interesting relationship between genius interesting relationship between genius and and and psychosis yeah maybe they're just uh two psychosis yeah maybe they're just uh two psychosis yeah maybe they're just uh two sides of the same sides of the same sides of the same coin humans are fascinating aren't they coin humans are fascinating aren't they coin humans are fascinating aren't they I think so sometimes scary but mostly I think so sometimes scary but mostly I think so sometimes scary but mostly fascinating can we just talk about fascinating can we just talk about fascinating can we just talk about memory sport a little longer there's memory sport a little longer there's memory sport a little longer there's something called the USA memory something called the USA memory something called the USA memory Championship like what are these Championship like what are these Championship like what are these athletes like what does it mean to be athletes like what does it mean to be athletes like what does it mean to be like Elite level this have you like Elite level this have you like Elite level this have you interacted with any of them or reading interacted with any of them or reading interacted with any of them or reading about them what have you learned about about them what have you learned about about them what have you learned about these folks there's a guy named uh Henry these folks there's a guy named uh Henry these folks there's a guy named uh Henry rer who's studying these guys and rer who's studying these guys and rer who's studying these guys and there's actually a book by Joshua for there's actually a book by Joshua for there's actually a book by Joshua for called Moon walking with Einstein where called Moon walking with Einstein where called Moon walking with Einstein where he talks about he talks about he talks about he actually as part of this book just

he actually as part of this book just he actually as part of this book just decided to become a memory athlete they decided to become a memory athlete they decided to become a memory athlete they often have these life events that make often have these life events that make often have these life events that make them go hey why don't I do this so there them go hey why don't I do this so there them go hey why don't I do this so there was a guy named Scott hagwood who I was a guy named Scott hagwood who I was a guy named Scott hagwood who I write about who um uh thought that he write about who um uh thought that he write about who um uh thought that he was uh he was getting chemo for cancer was uh he was getting chemo for cancer was uh he was getting chemo for cancer and so he decided like because chemo and so he decided like because chemo and so he decided like because chemo there's a a well-known thing called there's a a well-known thing called there's a a well-known thing called chemo brain where people become like chemo brain where people become like chemo brain where people become like they just lose a lot of their they just lose a lot of their they just lose a lot of their sharpness um and so he wanted to fight sharpness um and so he wanted to fight sharpness um and so he wanted to fight that by learning these memory skills so that by learning these memory skills so that by learning these memory skills so he bought a book and this is the story he bought a book and this is the story he bought a book and this is the story you hear in a lot of memory athletes is you hear in a lot of memory athletes is you hear in a lot of memory athletes is they buy a book by other memory athletes they buy a book by other memory athletes they buy a book by other memory athletes or other memory experts so to speak and or other memory experts so to speak and or other memory experts so to speak and they just learn those skills and they just learn those skills and they just learn those skills and practice them over and over again they practice them over and over again they practice them over and over again they start by winning bets and so forth and start by winning bets and so forth and start by winning bets and so forth and then they go into these competitions and then they go into these competitions and then they go into these competitions and the competitions are typically things the competitions are typically things the competitions are typically things like memorizing long strings of numbers like memorizing long strings of numbers like memorizing long strings of numbers or memorizing you know orders of cards or memorizing you know orders of cards or memorizing you know orders of cards and so forth so there tend to be pretty and so forth so there tend to be pretty and so forth so there tend to be pretty arbitrary things not like things that arbitrary things not like things that arbitrary things not like things that would be able you'd be able to bring a would be able you'd be able to bring a would be able you'd be able to bring a lot of prior knowledge but they build lot of prior knowledge but they build lot of prior knowledge but they build the skills that you need to memorize the skills that you need to memorize the skills that you need to memorize arbitrary things yeah it's fascinating arbitrary things yeah it's fascinating arbitrary things yeah it's fascinating I've uh gotten a chance to work with I've uh gotten a chance to work with I've uh gotten a chance to work with something called uh endb tasks so something called uh endb tasks so something called uh endb tasks so there's all these kinds of tasks memory there's all these kinds of tasks memory there's all these kinds of tasks memory recall tasks that are used to kind of recall tasks that are used to kind of recall tasks that are used to kind of load up the quote unquote working memory load up the quote unquote working memory load up the quote unquote working memory yeah yeah and to yeah yeah and to yeah yeah and to see the psychologist used it to test all see the psychologist used it to test all see the psychologist used it to test all kinds of stuff like to see how well kinds of stuff like to see how well kinds of stuff like to see how well you're good at multitasking use it in you're good at multitasking use it in you're good at multitasking use it in particular for the task of driving like

particular for the task of driving like particular for the task of driving like if it if we fill up your brain if it if we fill up your brain if it if we fill up your brain with intensive working memory tasks how with intensive working memory tasks how with intensive working memory tasks how good are you at also not crashing that good are you at also not crashing that good are you at also not crashing that kind of stuff so it's fascinating but kind of stuff so it's fascinating but kind of stuff so it's fascinating but again those tasks are arbitrary and again those tasks are arbitrary and again those tasks are arbitrary and they're usually about recalling a they're usually about recalling a they're usually about recalling a sequence of numbers in some kind of semi sequence of numbers in some kind of semi sequence of numbers in some kind of semi complex way are you uh do you have any complex way are you uh do you have any complex way are you uh do you have any favorite tasks of this nature in your favorite tasks of this nature in your favorite tasks of this nature in your own uh studies I've really been most own uh studies I've really been most own uh studies I've really been most excited about going in the opposite excited about going in the opposite excited about going in the opposite direction and using things that are more direction and using things that are more direction and using things that are more and more and more and more naturalistic and the reason is is that naturalistic and the reason is is that naturalistic and the reason is is that we've really move we've moved in that we've really move we've moved in that we've really move we've moved in that direction because what we found is that direction because what we found is that direction because what we found is that memory works very very differently when memory works very very differently when memory works very very differently when you study it when you study memory in you study it when you study memory in you study it when you study memory in the way that people typically the way that people typically the way that people typically remember and so it goes into a much more remember and so it goes into a much more remember and so it goes into a much more predictive mode and you have these um predictive mode and you have these um predictive mode and you have these um event boundaries for instance and you event boundaries for instance and you event boundaries for instance and you have have have uh but a lot of what happens is this uh but a lot of what happens is this uh but a lot of what happens is this kind of fascinating mix that we've been kind of fascinating mix that we've been kind of fascinating mix that we've been talking about a mix of interpretations talking about a mix of interpretations talking about a mix of interpretations and Imagination with perception and so and Imagination with perception and so and Imagination with perception and so um and the new direction we're going in um and the new direction we're going in um and the new direction we're going in is understanding uh navigation in our is understanding uh navigation in our is understanding uh navigation in our memory for places and the reason is is memory for places and the reason is is memory for places and the reason is is that there's a lot of work that's done that there's a lot of work that's done that there's a lot of work that's done in rats which is very good work they in rats which is very good work they in rats which is very good work they have a rat and they put it in a box and have a rat and they put it in a box and have a rat and they put it in a box and the rat goes chases cheese in a box and the rat goes chases cheese in a box and the rat goes chases cheese in a box and you'll find cells in the hippocampus you'll find cells in the hippocampus you'll find cells in the hippocampus that fire when a rat is in different

that fire when a rat is in different that fire when a rat is in different places in the box and so the places in the box and so the places in the box and so the conventional wisdom is that the conventional wisdom is that the conventional wisdom is that the hippocampus forms this map of the box hippocampus forms this map of the box hippocampus forms this map of the box and I think that probably may happen and I think that probably may happen and I think that probably may happen when you have like absolutely no when you have like absolutely no when you have like absolutely no knowledge of the world right but I think knowledge of the world right but I think knowledge of the world right but I think one of the cool things about human one of the cool things about human one of the cool things about human memory is we can bring to bear our past memory is we can bring to bear our past memory is we can bring to bear our past experiences to e economically learn new experiences to e economically learn new experiences to e economically learn new ones and so for instance if you learn a ones and so for instance if you learn a ones and so for instance if you learn a map of an Ikea let's say if I go to the map of an Ikea let's say if I go to the map of an Ikea let's say if I go to the IKEA in Austin I'm sure there's one here IKEA in Austin I'm sure there's one here IKEA in Austin I'm sure there's one here I probably could go to this Ikea and I probably could go to this Ikea and I probably could go to this Ikea and find my way to the you know where the find my way to the you know where the find my way to the you know where the wine glasses are without having to even wine glasses are without having to even wine glasses are without having to even think about it because it's got a very think about it because it's got a very think about it because it's got a very similar layout even though Ikea is a similar layout even though Ikea is a similar layout even though Ikea is a nightmare to get around once I learned nightmare to get around once I learned nightmare to get around once I learned my local Ikea I can use that map my local Ikea I can use that map my local Ikea I can use that map everywhere white form a brand new one everywhere white form a brand new one everywhere white form a brand new one for a new place and so that kind of for a new place and so that kind of for a new place and so that kind of ability to reuse information really ability to reuse information really ability to reuse information really comes into play when we look at things comes into play when we look at things comes into play when we look at things that are you know more naturalistic that are you know more naturalistic that are you know more naturalistic tasks um and uh another thing that we're tasks um and uh another thing that we're tasks um and uh another thing that we're really interested in is this idea of really interested in is this idea of really interested in is this idea of like what if instead of basically like what if instead of basically like what if instead of basically mapping out every coordinate in a space mapping out every coordinate in a space mapping out every coordinate in a space you form a pretty economical graph that you form a pretty economical graph that you form a pretty economical graph that connects basically the major landmarks connects basically the major landmarks connects basically the major landmarks together and being able to use that as together and being able to use that as together and being able to use that as you know emphasizing the things that are you know emphasizing the things that are you know emphasizing the things that are most important the places that you go most important the places that you go most important the places that you go for food and the places that are for food and the places that are for food and the places that are landmarks that help you get around and

landmarks that help you get around and landmarks that help you get around and then filling in the blanks for the rest then filling in the blanks for the rest then filling in the blanks for the rest because I really believe that cognitive because I really believe that cognitive because I really believe that cognitive Maps or mental maps of the world just Maps or mental maps of the world just Maps or mental maps of the world just like our memories for events are not like our memories for events are not like our memories for events are not photographic I think there this photographic I think there this photographic I think there this combination of actual verifiable details combination of actual verifiable details combination of actual verifiable details and then a lot of inference that you and then a lot of inference that you and then a lot of inference that you make so what have you learned about this make so what have you learned about this make so what have you learned about this kind of spatial mapping of places how do kind of spatial mapping of places how do kind of spatial mapping of places how do people represent locations uh there's a people represent locations uh there's a people represent locations uh there's a lot of variability I think that and lot of variability I think that and lot of variability I think that and there's a lot of disagreement about how there's a lot of disagreement about how there's a lot of disagreement about how people represent locations in a world of people represent locations in a world of people represent locations in a world of GPS and physical maps people can learn GPS and physical maps people can learn GPS and physical maps people can learn it from like basically what they call it from like basically what they call it from like basically what they call like survey perspective of being able to like survey perspective of being able to like survey perspective of being able to see everything and so that's one way in see everything and so that's one way in see everything and so that's one way in which humans can do it that's a little which humans can do it that's a little which humans can do it that's a little bit different um there's one way which bit different um there's one way which bit different um there's one way which we can memorize Roots like I know how to we can memorize Roots like I know how to we can memorize Roots like I know how to get from here to let's say if I knew get from here to let's say if I knew get from here to let's say if I knew walk here from my hotel I could just walk here from my hotel I could just walk here from my hotel I could just rigidly follow that route back right and rigidly follow that route back right and rigidly follow that route back right and there's another more integrative way there's another more integrative way there's another more integrative way which would be what's called a cognitive which would be what's called a cognitive which would be what's called a cognitive map which would be kind of a a sense of map which would be kind of a a sense of map which would be kind of a a sense of how everything relates to each how everything relates to each how everything relates to each other and so there's lots of people who other and so there's lots of people who other and so there's lots of people who believe that these maps that we have in believe that these maps that we have in believe that these maps that we have in our head are isomorphic with the world our head are isomorphic with the world our head are isomorphic with the world they're like these literal coordinates they're like these literal coordinates they're like these literal coordinates um that follow ukian space and as you um that follow ukian space and as you um that follow ukian space and as you know ukian mathematics is very know ukian mathematics is very know ukian mathematics is very constrained right constrained right constrained right and I think that we are actually much and I think that we are actually much and I think that we are actually much more generative in our maps of space so

more generative in our maps of space so more generative in our maps of space so that we do have these bits and pieces that we do have these bits and pieces that we do have these bits and pieces and and we we've got a small task it's and and we we've got a small task it's and and we we've got a small task it's right now not yet like uh we need to do right now not yet like uh we need to do right now not yet like uh we need to do some work on it for further analyses but some work on it for further analyses but some work on it for further analyses but one of the things we're looking at is uh one of the things we're looking at is uh one of the things we're looking at is uh these signals called ripples in the these signals called ripples in the these signals called ripples in the hippocampus which are these bursts of hippocampus which are these bursts of hippocampus which are these bursts of activity that you see that are activity that you see that are activity that you see that are synchronized with areas in in the synchronized with areas in in the synchronized with areas in in the neocortex in the default Network neocortex in the default Network neocortex in the default Network actually and so what we find is is that actually and so what we find is is that actually and so what we find is is that those ripples seem to increase at those ripples seem to increase at those ripples seem to increase at navigationally important points when navigationally important points when navigationally important points when you're making a decision or when you you're making a decision or when you you're making a decision or when you reach a goal it speaks to the emotion reach a goal it speaks to the emotion reach a goal it speaks to the emotion thing right because if you have limited thing right because if you have limited thing right because if you have limited choices if I'm walking down a street I choices if I'm walking down a street I choices if I'm walking down a street I could really just get a mental map of could really just get a mental map of could really just get a mental map of the neighborhood with a more minimal the neighborhood with a more minimal the neighborhood with a more minimal kind of thing by just saying here's the kind of thing by just saying here's the kind of thing by just saying here's the intersections and here's the directions intersections and here's the directions intersections and here's the directions I take to get in between them and what I take to get in between them and what I take to get in between them and what we found in general in our MRI studies we found in general in our MRI studies we found in general in our MRI studies is basic Ally the more people can reduce is basic Ally the more people can reduce is basic Ally the more people can reduce the problem whether it's space or any the problem whether it's space or any the problem whether it's space or any kind of decision-making problem the less kind of decision-making problem the less kind of decision-making problem the less the hippocampus encodes it really is the hippocampus encodes it really is the hippocampus encodes it really is very economical towards the points of very economical towards the points of very economical towards the points of most highest information content and most highest information content and most highest information content and value so can you describe the encoding value so can you describe the encoding value so can you describe the encoding in the hippocampus and the ripples you in the hippocampus and the ripples you in the hippocampus and the ripples you were talking about with the what's the were talking about with the what's the were talking about with the what's the signal in which we see the ripples yeah signal in which we see the ripples yeah signal in which we see the ripples yeah so this is really interesting there are so this is really interesting there are so this is really interesting there are these oscillations right so there's these oscillations right so there's these oscillations right so there's these waves that you basically see and these waves that you basically see and these waves that you basically see and um these waves are points of very high

um these waves are points of very high um these waves are points of very high excitability and low excitability and low excitability and low excitability and uh at least during they excitability and uh at least during they excitability and uh at least during they happen actually during slow wave sleep happen actually during slow wave sleep happen actually during slow wave sleep too so the deepest stages of sleep and too so the deepest stages of sleep and too so the deepest stages of sleep and you're just zoned out right you see you're just zoned out right you see you're just zoned out right you see these very slow waves where it's like these very slow waves where it's like these very slow waves where it's like very excitable and then very unexcitable very excitable and then very unexcitable very excitable and then very unexcitable it goes up and down and on top of them it goes up and down and on top of them it goes up and down and on top of them you'll see these little sharp wve you'll see these little sharp wve you'll see these little sharp wve Ripples and when there's a ripple in the Ripples and when there's a ripple in the Ripples and when there's a ripple in the hip campus you tend to see a sequence of hip campus you tend to see a sequence of hip campus you tend to see a sequence of cells that resemble a sequence of cells cells that resemble a sequence of cells cells that resemble a sequence of cells that fire when you know an animal is that fire when you know an animal is that fire when you know an animal is actually doing something in the world so actually doing something in the world so actually doing something in the world so it almost is like a little people call it almost is like a little people call it almost is like a little people call it replay I think it's a little bit I it replay I think it's a little bit I it replay I think it's a little bit I don't like that term but it's basically don't like that term but it's basically don't like that term but it's basically a little bit of a compressed play of the a little bit of a compressed play of the a little bit of a compressed play of the sequence of activity in the brain that sequence of activity in the brain that sequence of activity in the brain that was taking place earlier and during was taking place earlier and during was taking place earlier and during those moments there's a little window of those moments there's a little window of those moments there's a little window of communication between the hippocampus communication between the hippocampus communication between the hippocampus and these areas in the Neo cortex and so and these areas in the Neo cortex and so and these areas in the Neo cortex and so um that I think helps you form new um that I think helps you form new um that I think helps you form new memories but it also helps you I think memories but it also helps you I think memories but it also helps you I think stabilize them but also really connect stabilize them but also really connect stabilize them but also really connect different things together in memory and different things together in memory and different things together in memory and allows you to build Bridges between allows you to build Bridges between allows you to build Bridges between different events that you've had and so different events that you've had and so different events that you've had and so this is one of at least our theories of this is one of at least our theories of this is one of at least our theories of sleep and its real role in helping you sleep and its real role in helping you sleep and its real role in helping you see the connections between different see the connections between different see the connections between different events that you've experienced oh the so events that you've experienced oh the so events that you've experienced oh the so during sleep is when the connections are during sleep is when the connections are during sleep is when the connections are formed the connections between different formed the connections between different formed the connections between different events yeah right so it's like You See events yeah right so it's like You See events yeah right so it's like You See Me Now you see me next week you see me a Me Now you see me next week you see me a Me Now you see me next week you see me a month later you start to build a little

month later you start to build a little month later you start to build a little internal model of how I behave and and internal model of how I behave and and internal model of how I behave and and you know what to expect of me and we you know what to expect of me and we you know what to expect of me and we think sleep one of the things that think sleep one of the things that think sleep one of the things that allows you to do is figure out those allows you to do is figure out those allows you to do is figure out those connections and connect the dots and connections and connect the dots and connections and connect the dots and find the signal and the noise so you find the signal and the noise so you find the signal and the noise so you mentioned uh mentioned uh mentioned uh fmri what is it and how is it used in fmri what is it and how is it used in fmri what is it and how is it used in studying memory this is actually the studying memory this is actually the studying memory this is actually the reason why I got into this whole field reason why I got into this whole field reason why I got into this whole field of science is when I was in grad school of science is when I was in grad school of science is when I was in grad school fmri was just really taking off as a fmri was just really taking off as a fmri was just really taking off as a technique for studying brain activity technique for studying brain activity technique for studying brain activity and uh what's beautiful about it is you and uh what's beautiful about it is you and uh what's beautiful about it is you can study the whole human brain and uh can study the whole human brain and uh can study the whole human brain and uh there's lots of limits to it but you can there's lots of limits to it but you can there's lots of limits to it but you can basically do it in person without basically do it in person without basically do it in person without sticking anything into their brains and sticking anything into their brains and sticking anything into their brains and very non-invasive I mean for me being an very non-invasive I mean for me being an very non-invasive I mean for me being an MRI scanner is like being in the womb I MRI scanner is like being in the womb I MRI scanner is like being in the womb I just fall asleep if I'm not being asked just fall asleep if I'm not being asked just fall asleep if I'm not being asked to do it anything I get very sleepy you to do it anything I get very sleepy you to do it anything I get very sleepy you know um but you can have people watch know um but you can have people watch know um but you can have people watch movies while they're being scanned or movies while they're being scanned or movies while they're being scanned or you can have them do tests of memory you can have them do tests of memory you can have them do tests of memory like giving them words and so forth to like giving them words and so forth to like giving them words and so forth to memorize uh but what MRI is itself is memorize uh but what MRI is itself is memorize uh but what MRI is itself is just this technique where you put people just this technique where you put people just this technique where you put people in a very high magnetic field typical in a very high magnetic field typical in a very high magnetic field typical ones we would use would be three Tesla ones we would use would be three Tesla ones we would use would be three Tesla to give you an idea so a three Tesla to give you an idea so a three Tesla to give you an idea so a three Tesla magnet you put somebody in and what magnet you put somebody in and what magnet you put somebody in and what happens is you get this very weak but happens is you get this very weak but happens is you get this very weak but you know measurable magnetization in the you know measurable magnetization in the you know measurable magnetization in the brain and then you apply a radio brain and then you apply a radio brain and then you apply a radio frequency pulse which is basically a frequency pulse which is basically a frequency pulse which is basically a different electromagnetic field and so different electromagnetic field and so different electromagnetic field and so you're basically using water the water

you're basically using water the water you're basically using water the water molecules in the brain as a tracer so to molecules in the brain as a tracer so to molecules in the brain as a tracer so to speak um and uh part of it in fmri is speak um and uh part of it in fmri is speak um and uh part of it in fmri is the fact that these magnetic fields that the fact that these magnetic fields that the fact that these magnetic fields that you mess with by by you mess with by by you mess with by by manipulating um these radio frequency manipulating um these radio frequency manipulating um these radio frequency pulses and the static field and you have pulses and the static field and you have pulses and the static field and you have things called GR R would change the things called GR R would change the things called GR R would change the strength of the magnetic field in strength of the magnetic field in strength of the magnetic field in different parts of the head so they're different parts of the head so they're different parts of the head so they're all we tweak them in different ways but all we tweak them in different ways but all we tweak them in different ways but the basic idea that we use in eim is the basic idea that we use in eim is the basic idea that we use in eim is that blood is Flowing to the brain and that blood is Flowing to the brain and that blood is Flowing to the brain and when you have blood that doesn't have when you have blood that doesn't have when you have blood that doesn't have oxygen on it it's a little bit more oxygen on it it's a little bit more oxygen on it it's a little bit more magnetizable than blood that does magnetizable than blood that does magnetizable than blood that does because you have hemoglobin that carries because you have hemoglobin that carries because you have hemoglobin that carries the oxygen the iron basically in the the oxygen the iron basically in the the oxygen the iron basically in the blood that makes it red and so that blood that makes it red and so that blood that makes it red and so that hemoglobin when it's deoxygenated hemoglobin when it's deoxygenated hemoglobin when it's deoxygenated actually um has different magnetic field actually um has different magnetic field actually um has different magnetic field properties than when it has oxygen and properties than when it has oxygen and properties than when it has oxygen and it turns out when you have an increase it turns out when you have an increase it turns out when you have an increase in local activity in some part of the in local activity in some part of the in local activity in some part of the brain the blood flows there and as a brain the blood flows there and as a brain the blood flows there and as a result you get a lower concentration of result you get a lower concentration of result you get a lower concentration of hemoglobin that is not oxygenated and hemoglobin that is not oxygenated and hemoglobin that is not oxygenated and then that gives you more signal so I then that gives you more signal so I then that gives you more signal so I gave you I think I sent you a gif as you gave you I think I sent you a gif as you gave you I think I sent you a gif as you like to say yeah we had off record in like to say yeah we had off record in like to say yeah we had off record in intense argument uh about if it's intense argument uh about if it's intense argument uh about if it's pronounced GIF or GIF but that's we we pronounced GIF or GIF but that's we we pronounced GIF or GIF but that's we we shall set that aside as friends we could shall set that aside as friends we could shall set that aside as friends we could have called it a Stern rebuke perhaps have called it a Stern rebuke perhaps have called it a Stern rebuke perhaps but rebuke yeah I drew a hard line uh it

but rebuke yeah I drew a hard line uh it but rebuke yeah I drew a hard line uh it is true the creator of gift said it's is true the creator of gift said it's is true the creator of gift said it's pronounced GIF but that's the only pronounced GIF but that's the only pronounced GIF but that's the only person that pronounces gif anyway yes person that pronounces gif anyway yes person that pronounces gif anyway yes you sent a GI uh a gif of uh this would you sent a GI uh a gif of uh this would you sent a GI uh a gif of uh this would be basically a whole a movie of fmri be basically a whole a movie of fmri be basically a whole a movie of fmri data and so when you look at it's not data and so when you look at it's not data and so when you look at it's not very impressive it looks like these like very impressive it looks like these like very impressive it looks like these like very pixelated maps of the brain but very pixelated maps of the brain but very pixelated maps of the brain but it's mostly kind of like white but these it's mostly kind of like white but these it's mostly kind of like white but these tiny changes in the intensity of those tiny changes in the intensity of those tiny changes in the intensity of those signals that you probably wouldn't be signals that you probably wouldn't be signals that you probably wouldn't be able to visually perceive like about 1% able to visually perceive like about 1% able to visually perceive like about 1% can be statistically very very large can be statistically very very large can be statistically very very large effects for us and that allows us to see effects for us and that allows us to see effects for us and that allows us to see hey there's an increase in activity in hey there's an increase in activity in hey there's an increase in activity in some part of the brain when I'm doing some part of the brain when I'm doing some part of the brain when I'm doing some task like trying to remember some task like trying to remember some task like trying to remember something and I can use those changes to something and I can use those changes to something and I can use those changes to even predict is a person going to even predict is a person going to even predict is a person going to remember this later or not and the remember this later or not and the remember this later or not and the coolest thing that people have done is coolest thing that people have done is coolest thing that people have done is to to to decode um what people are remembering decode um what people are remembering decode um what people are remembering from the patterns of activity from from the patterns of activity from from the patterns of activity from because maybe when I'm remembering this because maybe when I'm remembering this because maybe when I'm remembering this thing like I'm remembering the house thing like I'm remembering the house thing like I'm remembering the house where I grew up I might have one pixel where I grew up I might have one pixel where I grew up I might have one pixel that's bright in the hippoc campus and that's bright in the hippoc campus and that's bright in the hippoc campus and one that's dark and if I'm remembering one that's dark and if I'm remembering one that's dark and if I'm remembering uh you know something like more like uh uh you know something like more like uh uh you know something like more like uh uh the car that I used to drive when I uh the car that I used to drive when I uh the car that I used to drive when I was 16 I might see the opposite pattern was 16 I might see the opposite pattern was 16 I might see the opposite pattern where a different pixels spray and so where a different pixels spray and so where a different pixels spray and so all that little stuff that we used to all that little stuff that we used to all that little stuff that we used to think of noise uh we can now think of think of noise uh we can now think of think of noise uh we can now think of almost like a QR code for memory so to almost like a QR code for memory so to almost like a QR code for memory so to speak where different memories have a speak where different memories have a speak where different memories have a different little pattern of bright different little pattern of bright different little pattern of bright pixels and dark pixels and so this pixels and dark pixels and so this pixels and dark pixels and so this really revolutionized my research so

really revolutionized my research so really revolutionized my research so there's fancy research out there where there's fancy research out there where there's fancy research out there where people really I mean not even that I people really I mean not even that I people really I mean not even that I mean by your standards this would be mean by your standards this would be mean by your standards this would be stone age but you know a flying machine stone age but you know a flying machine stone age but you know a flying machine learning techniques to do decoding and learning techniques to do decoding and learning techniques to do decoding and so forth and now there's a lot of so forth and now there's a lot of so forth and now there's a lot of forward encoding models and you you can forward encoding models and you you can forward encoding models and you you can go to town with this stuff right and I'm go to town with this stuff right and I'm go to town with this stuff right and I'm much more old school of Designing much more old school of Designing much more old school of Designing experiments where you basically say okay experiments where you basically say okay experiments where you basically say okay here's a whole web of inter of memories here's a whole web of inter of memories here's a whole web of inter of memories that overlap in some way shape or form that overlap in some way shape or form that overlap in some way shape or form do memories that occurred in the same do memories that occurred in the same do memories that occurred in the same place have a similar QR code and do place have a similar QR code and do place have a similar QR code and do memories that occur in different places memories that occur in different places memories that occur in different places have a different QR code and you can have a different QR code and you can have a different QR code and you can just use things like correlation just use things like correlation just use things like correlation coefficients or cosine distance to coefficients or cosine distance to coefficients or cosine distance to measure that stuff right super simple measure that stuff right super simple measure that stuff right super simple right and so what happens is you can right and so what happens is you can right and so what happens is you can start to get a whole state space of how start to get a whole state space of how start to get a whole state space of how a brain area is indexing all these a brain area is indexing all these a brain area is indexing all these different memories it's super different memories it's super different memories it's super fascinating because what we could see is fascinating because what we could see is fascinating because what we could see is this little like separation between how this little like separation between how this little like separation between how certain brain areas are processing certain brain areas are processing certain brain areas are processing memory for who was there in other brain memory for who was there in other brain memory for who was there in other brain areas of processing information about areas of processing information about areas of processing information about where it occurred or the situation where it occurred or the situation where it occurred or the situation that's kind of unfolding and some are that's kind of unfolding and some are that's kind of unfolding and some are giving you information about what are my giving you information about what are my giving you information about what are my goals that are involved and so forth and goals that are involved and so forth and goals that are involved and so forth and so and H campus is just putting it all so and H campus is just putting it all so and H campus is just putting it all together into these unique things that together into these unique things that together into these unique things that just are about when and where it just are about when and where it just are about when and where it happened so there is a separation happened so there is a separation happened so there is a separation between spatial between spatial between spatial information information information Concepts like literally there's distinct Concepts like literally there's distinct Concepts like literally there's distinct as you said QR codes for these so to

as you said QR codes for these so to as you said QR codes for these so to speak let me try a different analogy too speak let me try a different analogy too speak let me try a different analogy too that might be more accessible for people that might be more accessible for people that might be more accessible for people which should be like uh You' got a which should be like uh You' got a which should be like uh You' got a folder on your computer right I open it folder on your computer right I open it folder on your computer right I open it up there's a bunch of files there I can up there's a bunch of files there I can up there's a bunch of files there I can sort those files by you know sort those files by you know sort those files by you know alphabetical order and now things that alphabetical order and now things that alphabetical order and now things that both start with letter A are lumped both start with letter A are lumped both start with letter A are lumped together and things that start with Z together and things that start with Z together and things that start with Z versus a are far apart right and so that versus a are far apart right and so that versus a are far apart right and so that is one way of organizing the folder but is one way of organizing the folder but is one way of organizing the folder but I could do it by date and if I do it by I could do it by date and if I do it by I could do it by date and if I do it by date things that were created close date things that were created close date things that were created close together in time are close and things together in time are close and things together in time are close and things that are far apart in time are far so that are far apart in time are far so that are far apart in time are far so every like you can think of how a brain every like you can think of how a brain every like you can think of how a brain area or a network of areas contributes area or a network of areas contributes area or a network of areas contributes to memory by looking at what the Sorting to memory by looking at what the Sorting to memory by looking at what the Sorting scheme is and these QR codes that we're scheme is and these QR codes that we're scheme is and these QR codes that we're talking about that you get from FM or talking about that you get from FM or talking about that you get from FM or allow you to do that and you can do the allow you to do that and you can do the allow you to do that and you can do the same thing if you're recording from same thing if you're recording from same thing if you're recording from massive populations of neurons in uh an massive populations of neurons in uh an massive populations of neurons in uh an animal um and you can do it for animal um and you can do it for animal um and you can do it for recording local Potentials in the brain recording local Potentials in the brain recording local Potentials in the brain you know so little um waves of activity you know so little um waves of activity you know so little um waves of activity in let's say a human who has epilepsy in let's say a human who has epilepsy in let's say a human who has epilepsy and they stick electrodes in their brain and they stick electrodes in their brain and they stick electrodes in their brain try to find the seizures so that's some try to find the seizures so that's some try to find the seizures so that's some of the work that we're doing now but all of the work that we're doing now but all of the work that we're doing now but all these techniques basically allow you to these techniques basically allow you to these techniques basically allow you to say hey what's the Sorting scheme and so say hey what's the Sorting scheme and so say hey what's the Sorting scheme and so we've found that some networks of the we've found that some networks of the we've found that some networks of the brain sort information in memory brain sort information in memory brain sort information in memory according to who was there so I might according to who was there so I might according to who was there so I might have like we've actually shown in one of have like we've actually shown in one of have like we've actually shown in one of my favorite studies of all time that was my favorite studies of all time that was my favorite studies of all time that was done by a former post Zach rehea and

done by a former post Zach rehea and done by a former post Zach rehea and Zach did the study where we had a bunch Zach did the study where we had a bunch Zach did the study where we had a bunch of movies with different people in my of movies with different people in my of movies with different people in my labs are two different people and he labs are two different people and he labs are two different people and he filmed them at two different cafes and filmed them at two different cafes and filmed them at two different cafes and two different supermarkets two different supermarkets two different supermarkets and what you could show is in one and what you could show is in one and what you could show is in one particular Network you could find the particular Network you could find the particular Network you could find the same kind of pattern of activity more or same kind of pattern of activity more or same kind of pattern of activity more or less a very very similar pattern of less a very very similar pattern of less a very very similar pattern of activity every time I saw Alex in one of activity every time I saw Alex in one of activity every time I saw Alex in one of these movies no matter where he was these movies no matter where he was these movies no matter where he was right and I could see another one that right and I could see another one that right and I could see another one that was like a common uh pattern that was like a common uh pattern that was like a common uh pattern that happened every time I saw this happened every time I saw this happened every time I saw this particular Supermarket nugget you know particular Supermarket nugget you know particular Supermarket nugget you know and so and it didn't matter whether and so and it didn't matter whether and so and it didn't matter whether you're watching a movie or whether you're watching a movie or whether you're watching a movie or whether you're recalling the movie was the same you're recalling the movie was the same you're recalling the movie was the same kind of pattern that comes up right kind of pattern that comes up right kind of pattern that comes up right that's so fascinating it fascinating so that's so fascinating it fascinating so that's so fascinating it fascinating so now you have those building blocks for now you have those building blocks for now you have those building blocks for assembling a model of what's happening assembling a model of what's happening assembling a model of what's happening in the present imagining what could in the present imagining what could in the present imagining what could happen and remembering things very happen and remembering things very happen and remembering things very economically from putting together all economically from putting together all economically from putting together all these pieces so that all the hippocampus these pieces so that all the hippocampus these pieces so that all the hippocampus has to do is get the right kind of has to do is get the right kind of has to do is get the right kind of blueprint for how to put together all blueprint for how to put together all blueprint for how to put together all these building blocks these are all like these building blocks these are all like these building blocks these are all like beautiful hints at a super interesting beautiful hints at a super interesting beautiful hints at a super interesting system it makes me wonder on the other system it makes me wonder on the other system it makes me wonder on the other side of it how to build it but it's like side of it how to build it but it's like side of it how to build it but it's like it's fascinating like the way it does it's fascinating like the way it does it's fascinating like the way it does the encoding is really really the encoding is really really the encoding is really really fascinating or I guess the symptoms the fascinating or I guess the symptoms the fascinating or I guess the symptoms the results of that encoding are fascinating results of that encoding are fascinating results of that encoding are fascinating to study from this just as a small to study from this just as a small to study from this just as a small tangent you mentioned sort of the uh tangent you mentioned sort of the uh tangent you mentioned sort of the uh measuring local potentials with measuring local potentials with measuring local potentials with electrodes versus fmri oh yeah what are

electrodes versus fmri oh yeah what are electrodes versus fmri oh yeah what are some interesting like um limitations some interesting like um limitations some interesting like um limitations possibilities of fmri maybe the way you possibilities of fmri maybe the way you possibilities of fmri maybe the way you explain is like brilliant with with explain is like brilliant with with explain is like brilliant with with blood and it's detecting the um the blood and it's detecting the um the blood and it's detecting the um the activations or the excitation because activations or the excitation because activations or the excitation because blood flows to that area what's like the blood flows to that area what's like the blood flows to that area what's like the latency of that like what's the blood latency of that like what's the blood latency of that like what's the blood Dynamics in the brain that yeah like how Dynamics in the brain that yeah like how Dynamics in the brain that yeah like how quickly can it how quickly can the task quickly can it how quickly can the task quickly can it how quickly can the task change and all that kind of stuff yeah I change and all that kind of stuff yeah I change and all that kind of stuff yeah I mean it's very slow to the brain 50 mean it's very slow to the brain 50 mean it's very slow to the brain 50 milliseconds is like you know like it's milliseconds is like you know like it's milliseconds is like you know like it's an eternity uh like maybe not 50 an eternity uh like maybe not 50 an eternity uh like maybe not 50 oh you know maybe like uh you know let's oh you know maybe like uh you know let's oh you know maybe like uh you know let's say half a second 500 milliseconds just say half a second 500 milliseconds just say half a second 500 milliseconds just so much back and forth stuff happens in so much back and forth stuff happens in so much back and forth stuff happens in the brain in that time right so in fmri the brain in that time right so in fmri the brain in that time right so in fmri you can measure these magnetic field you can measure these magnetic field you can measure these magnetic field responses about six seconds after that responses about six seconds after that responses about six seconds after that burst of activity would take place all burst of activity would take place all burst of activity would take place all these things it's like is it a feature these things it's like is it a feature these things it's like is it a feature or is it a bug right so one of the or is it a bug right so one of the or is it a bug right so one of the interesting things that's been interesting things that's been interesting things that's been discovered about fmri is it's not so discovered about fmri is it's not so discovered about fmri is it's not so tightly related to this spiking of the tightly related to this spiking of the tightly related to this spiking of the neurons so we tend to think of the neurons so we tend to think of the neurons so we tend to think of the computation so to speak as being driven computation so to speak as being driven computation so to speak as being driven by spikes meaning like there's just a by spikes meaning like there's just a by spikes meaning like there's just a burst of it's either on or it's off and burst of it's either on or it's off and burst of it's either on or it's off and the neurons like going up or down um but the neurons like going up or down um but the neurons like going up or down um but sometimes what you can have is these sometimes what you can have is these sometimes what you can have is these states where the neuron becomes a little states where the neuron becomes a little states where the neuron becomes a little bit more excitable or less excitable and bit more excitable or less excitable and bit more excitable or less excitable and so fmri is very sensitive to those

so fmri is very sensitive to those so fmri is very sensitive to those changes in excitability actually one of changes in excitability actually one of changes in excitability actually one of the fascinating things about fmri is the fascinating things about fmri is the fascinating things about fmri is where does that how is it we go from where does that how is it we go from where does that how is it we go from neural activity to you know essentially neural activity to you know essentially neural activity to you know essentially blood flow to oxygen you know all this blood flow to oxygen you know all this blood flow to oxygen you know all this stuff it's such a long chain of you know stuff it's such a long chain of you know stuff it's such a long chain of you know going from neural activity to magnetic going from neural activity to magnetic going from neural activity to magnetic fields and one of the theories that's fields and one of the theories that's fields and one of the theories that's out there is you most of the cells in out there is you most of the cells in out there is you most of the cells in the brain are not neurons they're the brain are not neurons they're the brain are not neurons they're actually these support cells called gal actually these support cells called gal actually these support cells called gal cells and one big one is asites and they cells and one big one is asites and they cells and one big one is asites and they play this big role in regulating you play this big role in regulating you play this big role in regulating you know kind of being a middle man so to know kind of being a middle man so to know kind of being a middle man so to speak with the neurons so if you for speak with the neurons so if you for speak with the neurons so if you for instance like one neuron's talking to instance like one neuron's talking to instance like one neuron's talking to another you release a neurotransmitter another you release a neurotransmitter another you release a neurotransmitter like let's say glutamate and that gets like let's say glutamate and that gets like let's say glutamate and that gets another neuron starts Talk starts another neuron starts Talk starts another neuron starts Talk starts getting active after you release it in getting active after you release it in getting active after you release it in the gap between the two neurons called the gap between the two neurons called the gap between the two neurons called synapse so what's interesting is if you synapse so what's interesting is if you synapse so what's interesting is if you leave that you know imagine you just leave that you know imagine you just leave that you know imagine you just flooded with this like liquid in there flooded with this like liquid in there flooded with this like liquid in there right if you leave it in there too long right if you leave it in there too long right if you leave it in there too long you just excite the other neuron too you just excite the other neuron too you just excite the other neuron too much and you can start to basically get much and you can start to basically get much and you can start to basically get seizure activity you don't want this so seizure activity you don't want this so seizure activity you don't want this so you got to suck up and so actually what you got to suck up and so actually what you got to suck up and so actually what happens is these asites one of their happens is these asites one of their happens is these asites one of their functions is to suck up the uh um functions is to suck up the uh um functions is to suck up the uh um glutamate from the synapse and that is a glutamate from the synapse and that is a glutamate from the synapse and that is a massively and then break it down and massively and then break it down and massively and then break it down and then feed it back into the neurons so then feed it back into the neurons so then feed it back into the neurons so that you can reuse it but that cycling that you can reuse it but that cycling that you can reuse it but that cycling is actually very energy intensive and is actually very energy intensive and is actually very energy intensive and what's interesting is at least according what's interesting is at least according what's interesting is at least according to one Theory and they need to work so to one Theory and they need to work so to one Theory and they need to work so quickly that they're working on

quickly that they're working on quickly that they're working on metabolizing the glucose that comes in metabolizing the glucose that comes in metabolizing the glucose that comes in without using oxygen uh kind of like without using oxygen uh kind of like without using oxygen uh kind of like what you know anerobic metabolism so what you know anerobic metabolism so what you know anerobic metabolism so they're not using oxygen as fast as they they're not using oxygen as fast as they they're not using oxygen as fast as they are using glucose so what we're really are using glucose so what we're really are using glucose so what we're really seeing in some ways may be in fmri not seeing in some ways may be in fmri not seeing in some ways may be in fmri not the neurons themselves being active but the neurons themselves being active but the neurons themselves being active but rather the asites which are meeting the rather the asites which are meeting the rather the asites which are meeting the metabolic demands of the process of metabolic demands of the process of metabolic demands of the process of keeping the whole system going it does keeping the whole system going it does keeping the whole system going it does seem to be that fmri is a good way to seem to be that fmri is a good way to seem to be that fmri is a good way to study Activation so with these estros study Activation so with these estros study Activation so with these estros sites sites sites even though there's a even though there's a even though there's a latency it's pretty reliably coupled to latency it's pretty reliably coupled to latency it's pretty reliably coupled to the activations oh well this gets me to the activations oh well this gets me to the activations oh well this gets me to the other part about so now let's say the other part about so now let's say the other part about so now let's say for instance if I'm just kind of like for instance if I'm just kind of like for instance if I'm just kind of like I'm talking to you but I'm kind of I'm talking to you but I'm kind of I'm talking to you but I'm kind of paying attention to your cowboy hat paying attention to your cowboy hat paying attention to your cowboy hat right so I'm looking off to the I'm right so I'm looking off to the I'm right so I'm looking off to the I'm thinking about the right even if I'm not thinking about the right even if I'm not thinking about the right even if I'm not looking at it what you'd see is is that looking at it what you'd see is is that looking at it what you'd see is is that there would be this little elevation in there would be this little elevation in there would be this little elevation in activity in areas in the visual cortex activity in areas in the visual cortex activity in areas in the visual cortex you which process Vision around around you which process Vision around around you which process Vision around around that point in space okay so if then that point in space okay so if then that point in space okay so if then something happened like you know a something happened like you know a something happened like you know a sudden a light flashed in that part of sudden a light flashed in that part of sudden a light flashed in that part of of you know right in front of your of you know right in front of your of you know right in front of your cowboy hat I would have a bigger cowboy hat I would have a bigger cowboy hat I would have a bigger response to it but what you see in fmar response to it but what you see in fmar response to it but what you see in fmar is even if I'm not even if I don't see is even if I'm not even if I don't see is even if I'm not even if I don't see that flash of light there's a lot of that flash of light there's a lot of that flash of light there's a lot of activity that I can measure because activity that I can measure because activity that I can measure because you're kind of keeping it excitable and you're kind of keeping it excitable and you're kind of keeping it excitable and that in and of itself even though I'm that in and of itself even though I'm that in and of itself even though I'm not seeing anything there that's

not seeing anything there that's not seeing anything there that's particularly interesting there's still particularly interesting there's still particularly interesting there's still this increase in activity and so it's this increase in activity and so it's this increase in activity and so it's more sensitive with ephor so that is more sensitive with ephor so that is more sensitive with ephor so that is that a feature or is it a bug you know that a feature or is it a bug you know that a feature or is it a bug you know some people people who study spikes in some people people who study spikes in some people people who study spikes in neurons would say well that's terrible neurons would say well that's terrible neurons would say well that's terrible we don't want that you know uh likewise we don't want that you know uh likewise we don't want that you know uh likewise it's slow and that's terrible for it's slow and that's terrible for it's slow and that's terrible for measuring things that are very fast but measuring things that are very fast but measuring things that are very fast but one of the things that we found in our one of the things that we found in our one of the things that we found in our work was when we give people movies and work was when we give people movies and work was when we give people movies and when we give people stories to listen to when we give people stories to listen to when we give people stories to listen to a lot of the action is in the very very a lot of the action is in the very very a lot of the action is in the very very slow stuff it's in because if you're slow stuff it's in because if you're slow stuff it's in because if you're thinking about like a story let's say thinking about like a story let's say thinking about like a story let's say you're you're listening to a podcast or you're you're listening to a podcast or you're you're listening to a podcast or something you're listening to Lex something you're listening to Lex something you're listening to Lex Freedman podcast right you're putting Freedman podcast right you're putting Freedman podcast right you're putting this stuff together and building this this stuff together and building this this stuff together and building this internal model over several seconds internal model over several seconds internal model over several seconds which is basically we filter that out which is basically we filter that out which is basically we filter that out when we look at electrical activity in when we look at electrical activity in when we look at electrical activity in the brain because we're interested in the brain because we're interested in the brain because we're interested in this millisecond scale it's almost this millisecond scale it's almost this millisecond scale it's almost massive amounts of information right um massive amounts of information right um massive amounts of information right um so the way I see it is every technique so the way I see it is every technique so the way I see it is every technique gives you a little limited window into gives you a little limited window into gives you a little limited window into what's going on FM is huge problems you what's going on FM is huge problems you what's going on FM is huge problems you know people lie down in the scanner know people lie down in the scanner know people lie down in the scanner there's parts of the brain where you there's parts of the brain where you there's parts of the brain where you I'll show you in some of these images I'll show you in some of these images I'll show you in some of these images where you'll see kind of gaping holes where you'll see kind of gaping holes where you'll see kind of gaping holes because there's you can't keep the because there's you can't keep the because there's you can't keep the magnetic field stable in those spots magnetic field stable in those spots magnetic field stable in those spots you'll see Parts where it's like there's you'll see Parts where it's like there's you'll see Parts where it's like there's a vein and so it just produces big a vein and so it just produces big a vein and so it just produces big increases and decreases in Signal or increases and decreases in Signal or increases and decreases in Signal or respiration that causes these changes respiration that causes these changes respiration that causes these changes there's lots of artifacts and stuff like there's lots of artifacts and stuff like there's lots of artifacts and stuff like that you know every technique has its that you know every technique has its that you know every technique has its limits if if I'm lying down an MRI limits if if I'm lying down an MRI limits if if I'm lying down an MRI scanner I'm lying down I'm not

scanner I'm lying down I'm not scanner I'm lying down I'm not interacting with you in the same way interacting with you in the same way interacting with you in the same way that I would in the real world but at that I would in the real world but at that I would in the real world but at the same time I'm getting data that I the same time I'm getting data that I the same time I'm getting data that I might not be able to get otherwise and might not be able to get otherwise and might not be able to get otherwise and so different techniques give you so different techniques give you so different techniques give you different kinds of advantages what kind different kinds of advantages what kind different kinds of advantages what kind of big scientific discoveries maybe the of big scientific discoveries maybe the of big scientific discoveries maybe the flavor of discoveries have been flavor of discoveries have been flavor of discoveries have been done throughout the history of the done throughout the history of the done throughout the history of the science of memory the studying of memory science of memory the studying of memory science of memory the studying of memory what kind of what kind of what kind of things have been like understood oh things have been like understood oh things have been like understood oh there's so many it's really so hard to there's so many it's really so hard to there's so many it's really so hard to summarize it I mean I think it's funny summarize it I mean I think it's funny summarize it I mean I think it's funny because it's like when you're in the because it's like when you're in the because it's like when you're in the field you can get kind of Blas about field you can get kind of Blas about field you can get kind of Blas about this stuff but then once I started write this stuff but then once I started write this stuff but then once I started write the book I was like oh my God this is the book I was like oh my God this is the book I was like oh my God this is really interesting how did we do all really interesting how did we do all really interesting how did we do all this stuff this stuff this stuff um um I would say that some of the I um um I would say that some of the I um um I would say that some of the I mean you know from the first studies mean you know from the first studies mean you know from the first studies just showing how much we forget is very just showing how much we forget is very just showing how much we forget is very important showing how much schemas which important showing how much schemas which important showing how much schemas which is are organized knowledge about the is are organized knowledge about the is are organized knowledge about the world increase our ability to remember world increase our ability to remember world increase our ability to remember information just massive ly increase it information just massive ly increase it information just massive ly increase it studies of expertise showing how experts studies of expertise showing how experts studies of expertise showing how experts like chess experts can memorize so much like chess experts can memorize so much like chess experts can memorize so much in such a short amount of time because in such a short amount of time because in such a short amount of time because of the schemas they have for chess um of the schemas they have for chess um of the schemas they have for chess um but then also showing that those lead to but then also showing that those lead to but then also showing that those lead to all sorts of distortions in memory the all sorts of distortions in memory the all sorts of distortions in memory the discovery that the act of remembering discovery that the act of remembering discovery that the act of remembering can change the memory it can strengthen can change the memory it can strengthen can change the memory it can strengthen it but it can also distort it if you get it but it can also distort it if you get it but it can also distort it if you get misinformation at the time and it can

misinformation at the time and it can misinformation at the time and it can also strengthen or weaken other memories also strengthen or weaken other memories also strengthen or weaken other memories that you didn't even recall all so just that you didn't even recall all so just that you didn't even recall all so just this whole idea of memory as an this whole idea of memory as an this whole idea of memory as an ecosystem I think was a big Discovery um ecosystem I think was a big Discovery um ecosystem I think was a big Discovery um uh I could go this idea of like breaking uh I could go this idea of like breaking uh I could go this idea of like breaking up our continuous experience into these up our continuous experience into these up our continuous experience into these discret events um I think was a major discret events um I think was a major discret events um I think was a major Discovery to the discreetness of our Discovery to the discreetness of our Discovery to the discreetness of our encoding of Events maybe yeah I mean you encoding of Events maybe yeah I mean you encoding of Events maybe yeah I mean you know and again there's controversial know and again there's controversial know and again there's controversial ideas about this right but it's like ideas about this right but it's like ideas about this right but it's like yeah this idea that and this gets back yeah this idea that and this gets back yeah this idea that and this gets back to just this common experience of you to just this common experience of you to just this common experience of you walk into the kitchen and you're like walk into the kitchen and you're like walk into the kitchen and you're like why am I here and you just end up why am I here and you just end up why am I here and you just end up grabbing some food from the fridge and grabbing some food from the fridge and grabbing some food from the fridge and then you go back and you're like oh wait then you go back and you're like oh wait then you go back and you're like oh wait a minute I left my watch in the kitchen a minute I left my watch in the kitchen a minute I left my watch in the kitchen that's what I was looking for and so that's what I was looking for and so that's what I was looking for and so what happens is is that you have a what happens is is that you have a what happens is is that you have a little internal model of where you are little internal model of where you are little internal model of where you are what you're thinking about and when you what you're thinking about and when you what you're thinking about and when you cross from one room to another those cross from one room to another those cross from one room to another those models get updated and so now when models get updated and so now when models get updated and so now when you're in the kitchen you have to go you're in the kitchen you have to go you're in the kitchen you have to go back and mentally time travel back to back and mentally time travel back to back and mentally time travel back to this earlier point to remember what what this earlier point to remember what what this earlier point to remember what what it was that you went there for and so it was that you went there for and so it was that you went there for and so these event boundaries turns out like in these event boundaries turns out like in these event boundaries turns out like in our research again I don't want to make our research again I don't want to make our research again I don't want to make it sound like we've figured out it sound like we've figured out it sound like we've figured out everything but in our research one of everything but in our research one of everything but in our research one of the things that um we found is is that the things that um we found is is that the things that um we found is is that basically as people get older the basically as people get older the basically as people get older the activity in the hip campus at these activity in the hip campus at these activity in the hip campus at these event boundaries tends to go down um and event boundaries tends to go down um and event boundaries tends to go down um and and but independent of age if I give you and but independent of age if I give you and but independent of age if I give you outside of the scanner you're done with outside of the scanner you're done with outside of the scanner you're done with the scan I just scan you while you're the scan I just scan you while you're the scan I just scan you while you're watching a movie just watch it you come watching a movie just watch it you come watching a movie just watch it you come out I give you a test of memory for

out I give you a test of memory for out I give you a test of memory for stories what happens is you find this stories what happens is you find this stories what happens is you find this incredible correlation between the incredible correlation between the incredible correlation between the activity and the hippocampus at these activity and the hippocampus at these activity and the hippocampus at these singular points in time these event singular points in time these event singular points in time these event boundaries and your ability to just boundaries and your ability to just boundaries and your ability to just remember a story outside of the scanner remember a story outside of the scanner remember a story outside of the scanner later on so it's marking this ability to later on so it's marking this ability to later on so it's marking this ability to encode memories just these little encode memories just these little encode memories just these little Snippets of neural activity so I think Snippets of neural activity so I think Snippets of neural activity so I think that's a big one um there's all sorts of that's a big one um there's all sorts of that's a big one um there's all sorts of work in animal models that I can get work in animal models that I can get work in animal models that I can get into you know sleep I think there's so into you know sleep I think there's so into you know sleep I think there's so much interesting stuff that's being much interesting stuff that's being much interesting stuff that's being discovered in sleep right now discovered in sleep right now discovered in sleep right now um being able to just record from large um being able to just record from large um being able to just record from large populations of cells and then be able to populations of cells and then be able to populations of cells and then be able to relate that one I think the coolest relate that one I think the coolest relate that one I think the coolest thing gets back to this QR code thing thing gets back to this QR code thing thing gets back to this QR code thing because like what we can do now is like because like what we can do now is like because like what we can do now is like I can take fmri data while you're I can take fmri data while you're I can take fmri data while you're watching a movie or let's do better than watching a movie or let's do better than watching a movie or let's do better than that let me get fmri data while you use that let me get fmri data while you use that let me get fmri data while you use a joystick to move around in virtual a joystick to move around in virtual a joystick to move around in virtual reality right you're in the metaverse reality right you're in the metaverse reality right you're in the metaverse whatever right but it's kind of a crappy whatever right but it's kind of a crappy whatever right but it's kind of a crappy metaverse because there's always so much metaverse because there's always so much metaverse because there's always so much metav versing you can do M so they doing metav versing you can do M so they doing metav versing you can do M so they doing this crappy metsing so now I can take a this crappy metsing so now I can take a this crappy metsing so now I can take a rat record from his hippocampus and rat record from his hippocampus and rat record from his hippocampus and prefrontal cortex and all these areas prefrontal cortex and all these areas prefrontal cortex and all these areas with these really new electrodes get with these really new electrodes get with these really new electrodes get massive amounts of data and have it move massive amounts of data and have it move massive amounts of data and have it move around on a track ball in virtual around on a track ball in virtual around on a track ball in virtual reality in the same metaverse that I did reality in the same metaverse that I did reality in the same metaverse that I did and record that rats activity I can get and record that rats activity I can get and record that rats activity I can get a person with epilepsy who we have a person with epilepsy who we have a person with epilepsy who we have electrodes in the brain anyway to try to electrodes in the brain anyway to try to electrodes in the brain anyway to try to figure out where the seizures are coming

figure out where the seizures are coming figure out where the seizures are coming from if it's a healthy part of the brain from if it's a healthy part of the brain from if it's a healthy part of the brain record from that person right and I can record from that person right and I can record from that person right and I can get a computational model uh in one of get a computational model uh in one of get a computational model uh in one of the one of the brand new members in my the one of the brand new members in my the one of the brand new members in my lab Tyler bond is just doing some great lab Tyler bond is just doing some great lab Tyler bond is just doing some great stuff he he relates computer vision stuff he he relates computer vision stuff he he relates computer vision models and looks at the weaknesses of models and looks at the weaknesses of models and looks at the weaknesses of computer vision models and relates it to computer vision models and relates it to computer vision models and relates it to what the brain does well um and so you what the brain does well um and so you what the brain does well um and so you can actually take a a ground truth you can actually take a a ground truth you can actually take a a ground truth you know um uh code for the metaverse know um uh code for the metaverse know um uh code for the metaverse basically and you can feed in the visual basically and you can feed in the visual basically and you can feed in the visual information let's say the sensory information let's say the sensory information let's say the sensory information or whatever that's coming in information or whatever that's coming in information or whatever that's coming in to a computational model that's designed to a computational model that's designed to a computational model that's designed to take real world inputs right and you to take real world inputs right and you to take real world inputs right and you could basically tie them all together by could basically tie them all together by could basically tie them all together by virtue of the state spaces that you're virtue of the state spaces that you're virtue of the state spaces that you're measuring in neural activity in these measuring in neural activity in these measuring in neural activity in these different formats these different different formats these different different formats these different species and in the computational model species and in the computational model species and in the computational model which is just I just find that which is just I just find that which is just I just find that mindblowing you could do uh different mindblowing you could do uh different mindblowing you could do uh different kinds of analyses on language and kinds of analyses on language and kinds of analyses on language and basically come up with just like the basically come up with just like the basically come up with just like the basically it's the guts of llms right basically it's the guts of llms right basically it's the guts of llms right you have you could do um analyses on you have you could do um analyses on you have you could do um analyses on language and you could do analysis on language and you could do analysis on language and you could do analysis on you know sentiment analyses of emotions you know sentiment analyses of emotions you know sentiment analyses of emotions and so forth put all this stuff together and so forth put all this stuff together and so forth put all this stuff together I mean it's it's almost too much but if I mean it's it's almost too much but if I mean it's it's almost too much but if you do it right and you do it in a you do it right and you do it in a you do it right and you do it in a theory driven way as opposed to just theory driven way as opposed to just theory driven way as opposed to just throwing all the data at the wall and throwing all the data at the wall and throwing all the data at the wall and see what sticks I mean that to me is see what sticks I mean that to me is see what sticks I mean that to me is just exceptionally powerful so you can just exceptionally powerful so you can just exceptionally powerful so you can take fmri data in across species and

take fmri data in across species and take fmri data in across species and across different types of humans or across different types of humans or across different types of humans or conditions of humans and what conditions of humans and what conditions of humans and what find construct find construct find construct models that help you find the models that help you find the models that help you find the commonalities or like the the core thing commonalities or like the the core thing commonalities or like the the core thing that makes somebody navigate through the that makes somebody navigate through the that makes somebody navigate through the metaverse for example yeah yeah I mean metaverse for example yeah yeah I mean metaverse for example yeah yeah I mean more or less I mean there's a lot of more or less I mean there's a lot of more or less I mean there's a lot of details but yes I think and not just details but yes I think and not just details but yes I think and not just fmri but you can relate it to like I fmri but you can relate it to like I fmri but you can relate it to like I said recordings from large populations said recordings from large populations said recordings from large populations of neurons that could be taken any human of neurons that could be taken any human of neurons that could be taken any human or even in a non-human animal that is or even in a non-human animal that is or even in a non-human animal that is you know where you think it's an you know where you think it's an you know where you think it's an anatomical homologue so that's just anatomical homologue so that's just anatomical homologue so that's just mind-blowing to me what's the uh mind-blowing to me what's the uh mind-blowing to me what's the uh similarities in humans and similarities in humans and similarities in humans and mice I what Smashing Pumpkins uh we all mice I what Smashing Pumpkins uh we all mice I what Smashing Pumpkins uh we all just rats in a cage is that Smashing just rats in a cage is that Smashing just rats in a cage is that Smashing Pumpkins despite all of your rage is Pumpkins despite all of your rage is Pumpkins despite all of your rage is that Smashing Pumpkins I think despite that Smashing Pumpkins I think despite that Smashing Pumpkins I think despite all of your rage at gifs you're still all of your rage at gifs you're still all of your rage at gifs you're still just rat in a cage oh yeah all right just rat in a cage oh yeah all right just rat in a cage oh yeah all right good call back any good call back see good call back any good call back see good call back any good call back see these memory retrieval exercises I'm these memory retrieval exercises I'm these memory retrieval exercises I'm doing are actually helping you build a doing are actually helping you build a doing are actually helping you build a lasting memory of this conversation and lasting memory of this conversation and lasting memory of this conversation and it's strengthening the P the visual it's strengthening the P the visual it's strengthening the P the visual thing I have of you with James Brown on thing I have of you with James Brown on thing I have of you with James Brown on stage it's just com stronger and stage it's just com stronger and stage it's just com stronger and stronger by the second um hot up but stronger by the second um hot up but stronger by the second um hot up but animal studies work here as well yeah animal studies work here as well yeah animal studies work here as well yeah yeah so okay so let's go to the um so I yeah so okay so let's go to the um so I yeah so okay so let's go to the um so I think re I've got you know great think re I've got you know great think re I've got you know great colleagues who I talk to who study colleagues who I talk to who study colleagues who I talk to who study memory in mice you know and there's some

memory in mice you know and there's some memory in mice you know and there's some uh um one of the valuable things in uh um one of the valuable things in uh um one of the valuable things in those models is you can study neural those models is you can study neural those models is you can study neural circuits in an enormously targeted way circuits in an enormously targeted way circuits in an enormously targeted way because you could do these genetic because you could do these genetic because you could do these genetic studies for instance where you can studies for instance where you can studies for instance where you can manipulate like particular groups of manipulate like particular groups of manipulate like particular groups of neurons and it's just getting more and neurons and it's just getting more and neurons and it's just getting more and more targeted to the point where you can more targeted to the point where you can more targeted to the point where you can actually turn on uh particular kind of actually turn on uh particular kind of actually turn on uh particular kind of memory just by activating a particular memory just by activating a particular memory just by activating a particular set of neurons that was active during an set of neurons that was active during an set of neurons that was active during an experience right so experience right so experience right so so there's a lot of conservation of some so there's a lot of conservation of some so there's a lot of conservation of some of these neural circuits across you know of these neural circuits across you know of these neural circuits across you know um evolution in mammals for instance um um evolution in mammals for instance um um evolution in mammals for instance um and then some people would even say that and then some people would even say that and then some people would even say that there's genetic mechanisms for learning there's genetic mechanisms for learning there's genetic mechanisms for learning that are conserved even going back far that are conserved even going back far that are conserved even going back far far before but let's go back to the mice far before but let's go back to the mice far before but let's go back to the mice in humans question right um there's a in humans question right um there's a in humans question right um there's a lot of differences so for one thing the lot of differences so for one thing the lot of differences so for one thing the sensory information is very different uh sensory information is very different uh sensory information is very different uh mice and rats explore the world largely mice and rats explore the world largely mice and rats explore the world largely through through through um smelling all faction uh but they also um smelling all faction uh but they also um smelling all faction uh but they also have Vision that's kind of designed to have Vision that's kind of designed to have Vision that's kind of designed to kind of catch Death from Above So it's kind of catch Death from Above So it's kind of catch Death from Above So it's like a very big view of the world and we like a very big view of the world and we like a very big view of the world and we move our eyes around in a way that move our eyes around in a way that move our eyes around in a way that focuses on particular spots and space focuses on particular spots and space focuses on particular spots and space where you get very high resolution from where you get very high resolution from where you get very high resolution from a very limited set of spots in space so a very limited set of spots in space so a very limited set of spots in space so that makes us very different in that way that makes us very different in that way that makes us very different in that way we also have all these other structures we also have all these other structures we also have all these other structures as social animals that allow us to um as social animals that allow us to um as social animals that allow us to um respond differently there's language respond differently there's language respond differently there's language there's like um you know so you name it there's like um you know so you name it there's like um you know so you name it there's obviously gobs of differences

there's obviously gobs of differences there's obviously gobs of differences humans aren't just giant rats there's humans aren't just giant rats there's humans aren't just giant rats there's much more complexity to us time scales much more complexity to us time scales much more complexity to us time scales are very important so primate brains and are very important so primate brains and are very important so primate brains and human brains are especially good at human brains are especially good at human brains are especially good at integrating and um and holding on to integrating and um and holding on to integrating and um and holding on to information across longer and longer information across longer and longer information across longer and longer periods of time right and and also you periods of time right and and also you periods of time right and and also you know finally it's like our history of know finally it's like our history of know finally it's like our history of training data so to speak is very very training data so to speak is very very training data so to speak is very very different than you know I mean human's different than you know I mean human's different than you know I mean human's world is very different than a wild M world is very different than a wild M world is very different than a wild M Mouse's world and a lab Mouse's world is Mouse's world and a lab Mouse's world is Mouse's world and a lab Mouse's world is extraordinarily impoverished relative to extraordinarily impoverished relative to extraordinarily impoverished relative to an adult human you know but still what an adult human you know but still what an adult human you know but still what can you understand by studying mice I can you understand by studying mice I can you understand by studying mice I mean just basic almost behavioral stuff mean just basic almost behavioral stuff mean just basic almost behavioral stuff about memory well yes but that's very about memory well yes but that's very about memory well yes but that's very important right so you can understand important right so you can understand important right so you can understand for instance how do neurons talk to each for instance how do neurons talk to each for instance how do neurons talk to each other that's a really big big question other that's a really big big question other that's a really big big question neural computation in and of itself you neural computation in and of itself you neural computation in and of itself you think it's the most simple question think it's the most simple question think it's the most simple question right not at all I mean it's a big big right not at all I mean it's a big big right not at all I mean it's a big big question and understanding how two parts question and understanding how two parts question and understanding how two parts of the brain interact meaning that it's of the brain interact meaning that it's of the brain interact meaning that it's not just one area speaking it's not like not just one area speaking it's not like not just one area speaking it's not like you know it's not like Twitter where one you know it's not like Twitter where one you know it's not like Twitter where one area of the brain is shouting and then area of the brain is shouting and then area of the brain is shouting and then another area of the brain's just stuck another area of the brain's just stuck another area of the brain's just stuck listening to this scrap it's like listening to this scrap it's like listening to this scrap it's like they're actually interacting on a they're actually interacting on a they're actually interacting on a millisecond scale right how does that millisecond scale right how does that millisecond scale right how does that happen and how do you regulate those happen and how do you regulate those happen and how do you regulate those interactions these Dynamic you know um interactions these Dynamic you know um interactions these Dynamic you know um interactions we're still figuring that interactions we're still figuring that interactions we're still figuring that out but that's going to be coming large out but that's going to be coming large out but that's going to be coming large from model systems that are easier to from model systems that are easier to from model systems that are easier to understand um you can do manipulations

understand um you can do manipulations understand um you can do manipulations like drug manipulations to manipulate like drug manipulations to manipulate like drug manipulations to manipulate circuits and and you know use viruses circuits and and you know use viruses circuits and and you know use viruses and so forth and lasers to turn on and so forth and lasers to turn on and so forth and lasers to turn on circuits that you just can't do in circuits that you just can't do in circuits that you just can't do in humans so I think there's a lot that can humans so I think there's a lot that can humans so I think there's a lot that can be learned from mice there's a lot that be learned from mice there's a lot that be learned from mice there's a lot that can be learned from non-human primates can be learned from non-human primates can be learned from non-human primates and there's a lot that you need to learn and there's a lot that you need to learn and there's a lot that you need to learn from humans and I think um unfortunately from humans and I think um unfortunately from humans and I think um unfortunately some of the uh people in the National some of the uh people in the National some of the uh people in the National Institutes of Health think you can learn Institutes of Health think you can learn Institutes of Health think you can learn everything from the mouse it's a like everything from the mouse it's a like everything from the mouse it's a like why study memory in humans what I could why study memory in humans what I could why study memory in humans what I could study learning in a mouse and it's just study learning in a mouse and it's just study learning in a mouse and it's just like oh my God I'm going to get my like oh my God I'm going to get my like oh my God I'm going to get my funding from somewhere else so uh well funding from somewhere else so uh well funding from somewhere else so uh well let me ask you some random fascinating let me ask you some random fascinating let me ask you some random fascinating questions uh uh how does deja vu work so questions uh uh how does deja vu work so questions uh uh how does deja vu work so Deja Vu is it's actually one of these Deja Vu is it's actually one of these Deja Vu is it's actually one of these things I think that some of the surveys things I think that some of the surveys things I think that some of the surveys suggest that like 75% of people report suggest that like 75% of people report suggest that like 75% of people report having a Deja Vu experience one time or having a Deja Vu experience one time or having a Deja Vu experience one time or another I don't know where that came another I don't know where that came another I don't know where that came from but I've pulled people in my class from but I've pulled people in my class from but I've pulled people in my class and most of them say they've experienced and most of them say they've experienced and most of them say they've experienced Aja Vu um it's this kind of sense that Aja Vu um it's this kind of sense that Aja Vu um it's this kind of sense that I've experienced this moment sometime I've experienced this moment sometime I've experienced this moment sometime before I've been here before um and before I've been here before um and before I've been here before um and actually there's all sorts of variants actually there's all sorts of variants actually there's all sorts of variants of this the French have all sorts of of this the French have all sorts of of this the French have all sorts of names for various versions of the Shamy names for various versions of the Shamy names for various versions of the Shamy Vu Harley Vu I don't know whatever it's Vu Harley Vu I don't know whatever it's Vu Harley Vu I don't know whatever it's like all these different V yeah but um like all these different V yeah but um like all these different V yeah but um uh Deja Vu is the sense that it can be uh Deja Vu is the sense that it can be uh Deja Vu is the sense that it can be like uh almost disturbing intense sense like uh almost disturbing intense sense like uh almost disturbing intense sense of of of familiarity um so there was a a familiarity um so there was a a familiarity um so there was a a researcher named Wilder Penfield

researcher named Wilder Penfield researcher named Wilder Penfield actually this goes back even earlier to actually this goes back even earlier to actually this goes back even earlier to some of the earliest like hings Jackson some of the earliest like hings Jackson some of the earliest like hings Jackson was this neurologist who first charact was this neurologist who first charact was this neurologist who first charact who did a lot of the early who did a lot of the early who did a lot of the early characterizations of epilepsy and one of characterizations of epilepsy and one of characterizations of epilepsy and one of the things you notice is in epilepsy the things you notice is in epilepsy the things you notice is in epilepsy patients some group of them right before patients some group of them right before patients some group of them right before they would get a seizure they would have they would get a seizure they would have they would get a seizure they would have this intense sense of deja vu so it's this intense sense of deja vu so it's this intense sense of deja vu so it's this artificial sense of familiarity this artificial sense of familiarity this artificial sense of familiarity it's a sense of having a memory that's it's a sense of having a memory that's it's a sense of having a memory that's not there right and so what was not there right and so what was not there right and so what was happening was there was electrical happening was there was electrical happening was there was electrical activity in certain parts of these activity in certain parts of these activity in certain parts of these brains say so this guy Penfield later on brains say so this guy Penfield later on brains say so this guy Penfield later on when he was trying to look for how do we when he was trying to look for how do we when he was trying to look for how do we map out the brain to figure out which map out the brain to figure out which map out the brain to figure out which parts we want to remove and which parts parts we want to remove and which parts parts we want to remove and which parts don't we he would stimulate parts of the don't we he would stimulate parts of the don't we he would stimulate parts of the temporal loes of the brain and find you temporal loes of the brain and find you temporal loes of the brain and find you could elicit the sense of deu sometimes could elicit the sense of deu sometimes could elicit the sense of deu sometimes you'd actually get a memory that a you'd actually get a memory that a you'd actually get a memory that a person would re-experience just from person would re-experience just from person would re-experience just from electrically stimulating some part electrically stimulating some part electrically stimulating some part sometimes they just have this intense sometimes they just have this intense sometimes they just have this intense feeling of being somewhere before and so feeling of being somewhere before and so feeling of being somewhere before and so um one Theory which I really like is is um one Theory which I really like is is um one Theory which I really like is is that in higher order areas of the brain that in higher order areas of the brain that in higher order areas of the brain they're integrating from many many they're integrating from many many they're integrating from many many different you know sources of input what different you know sources of input what different you know sources of input what happens is is that they're tuning happens is is that they're tuning happens is is that they're tuning themselves up every time you process a themselves up every time you process a themselves up every time you process a similar input right and so that allows similar input right and so that allows similar input right and so that allows you to just get this kind of a fluent you to just get this kind of a fluent you to just get this kind of a fluent sense that I'm very familiar you're very sense that I'm very familiar you're very sense that I'm very familiar you're very familiar with this place right and so familiar with this place right and so familiar with this place right and so just being here you're not going to be just being here you're not going to be just being here you're not going to be moving your eyes all over the place CU moving your eyes all over the place CU moving your eyes all over the place CU you kind of have an idea of where

you kind of have an idea of where you kind of have an idea of where everything is and that fluency gives you everything is and that fluency gives you everything is and that fluency gives you a sense of like I'm here now I wake up a sense of like I'm here now I wake up a sense of like I'm here now I wake up in my hotel room and I have this very in my hotel room and I have this very in my hotel room and I have this very unfamiliar sense of where I am right but unfamiliar sense of where I am right but unfamiliar sense of where I am right but you know there's a great set of studies you know there's a great set of studies you know there's a great set of studies done by Anne clear at Colorado State done by Anne clear at Colorado State done by Anne clear at Colorado State where she created these virtual reality where she created these virtual reality where she created these virtual reality environments and we'll go back to the environments and we'll go back to the environments and we'll go back to the metaverse imagine you go through a metaverse imagine you go through a metaverse imagine you go through a virtual Museum right virtual Museum right virtual Museum right and then she would put people in virtual and then she would put people in virtual and then she would put people in virtual reality and have them go through a reality and have them go through a reality and have them go through a virtual arcade but the map of the two virtual arcade but the map of the two virtual arcade but the map of the two places was exactly the same she just places was exactly the same she just places was exactly the same she just puts different skins on them so one puts different skins on them so one puts different skins on them so one looks different than the other but looks different than the other but looks different than the other but they've got same landmarks and the same they've got same landmarks and the same they've got same landmarks and the same places same objects same everything but places same objects same everything but places same objects same everything but carpeting Colors theme everything's carpeting Colors theme everything's carpeting Colors theme everything's different people will often not have any different people will often not have any different people will often not have any conscious idea that the two were the conscious idea that the two were the conscious idea that the two were the same but they could report this very same but they could report this very same but they could report this very intense sense of deja vu so it's like a intense sense of deja vu so it's like a intense sense of deja vu so it's like a partial match that's eliciting this kind partial match that's eliciting this kind partial match that's eliciting this kind of a sense of of a sense of of a sense of familiarity and uh and that's why you familiarity and uh and that's why you familiarity and uh and that's why you know in patients who have epilepsy that know in patients who have epilepsy that know in patients who have epilepsy that affects memory you get this artificial affects memory you get this artificial affects memory you get this artificial sense of familiarity that happens and so sense of familiarity that happens and so sense of familiarity that happens and so we think that and again this is just one we think that and again this is just one we think that and again this is just one Theory amongst many but we think that's Theory amongst many but we think that's Theory amongst many but we think that's we get a little bit of that feeling it's we get a little bit of that feeling it's we get a little bit of that feeling it's not enough to necessarily give you Deja not enough to necessarily give you Deja not enough to necessarily give you Deja Vu even for very mundane things right so Vu even for very mundane things right so Vu even for very mundane things right so it's like if I tell you the word rudaba it's like if I tell you the word rudaba it's like if I tell you the word rudaba your brain's going to work a little bit your brain's going to work a little bit your brain's going to work a little bit harder to catch it than if I give you harder to catch it than if I give you harder to catch it than if I give you word like apple right um and that's word like apple right um and that's word like apple right um and that's because you hear Apple a lot so your

because you hear Apple a lot so your because you hear Apple a lot so your brain's very tuned up to process it brain's very tuned up to process it brain's very tuned up to process it efficiently but Ruda takes a little bit efficiently but Ruda takes a little bit efficiently but Ruda takes a little bit longer and more intense and you can longer and more intense and you can longer and more intense and you can actually see a difference in brain actually see a difference in brain actually see a difference in brain activity in areas in the temporal lobe activity in areas in the temporal lobe activity in areas in the temporal lobe when you hear a word just based on how when you hear a word just based on how when you hear a word just based on how frequent it is in the English language frequent it is in the English language frequent it is in the English language so fasc we think it's tied to this basic so fasc we think it's tied to this basic so fasc we think it's tied to this basic it's a basically a byproduct of our it's a basically a byproduct of our it's a basically a byproduct of our mechanism of just learning doing this mechanism of just learning doing this mechanism of just learning doing this error-driven learning as we go through error-driven learning as we go through error-driven learning as we go through life to become better and better and life to become better and better and life to become better and better and better to process things more and more better to process things more and more better to process things more and more efficiently so I guess Deja Vu is just efficiently so I guess Deja Vu is just efficiently so I guess Deja Vu is just like an extra like an extra like an extra elevated stuff coming together firing elevated stuff coming together firing elevated stuff coming together firing for this artificial memory as if it's for this artificial memory as if it's for this artificial memory as if it's the real the real the real memory this I mean why does it feel so memory this I mean why does it feel so memory this I mean why does it feel so intense uh well it doesn't happen all intense uh well it doesn't happen all intense uh well it doesn't happen all the time but I think what may be the time but I think what may be the time but I think what may be happening is it's such a it's a partial happening is it's such a it's a partial happening is it's such a it's a partial match to something that we have and it's match to something that we have and it's match to something that we have and it's not enough to trigger that sense of you not enough to trigger that sense of you not enough to trigger that sense of you know that ability to pull together all know that ability to pull together all know that ability to pull together all the pieces but it's a close enough match the pieces but it's a close enough match the pieces but it's a close enough match to give you that intense sense of to give you that intense sense of to give you that intense sense of familiarity without the recollection of familiarity without the recollection of familiarity without the recollection of exactly what happened when but it's also exactly what happened when but it's also exactly what happened when but it's also like a spatial temporal familiarity so like a spatial temporal familiarity so like a spatial temporal familiarity so like it's also in time like there's a like it's also in time like there's a like it's also in time like there's a weird blending of time that happens um weird blending of time that happens um weird blending of time that happens um and we'll we'll probably talk about time and we'll we'll probably talk about time and we'll we'll probably talk about time because I think that's a really because I think that's a really because I think that's a really interesting idea how time relates to interesting idea how time relates to interesting idea how time relates to memory but um you also kind of memory but um you also kind of memory but um you also kind of artificial memory brings to mind this artificial memory brings to mind this artificial memory brings to mind this idea of false memories mhm that comes in idea of false memories mhm that comes in idea of false memories mhm that comes in all kinds of context but how do false

all kinds of context but how do false all kinds of context but how do false memories form well I like to say there's memories form well I like to say there's memories form well I like to say there's no such thing as true or false memories no such thing as true or false memories no such thing as true or false memories right it's like a um Johnny Roden from right it's like a um Johnny Roden from right it's like a um Johnny Roden from The Sex Pistols he had a saying that's The Sex Pistols he had a saying that's The Sex Pistols he had a saying that's like I don't believe in false memories like I don't believe in false memories like I don't believe in false memories anymore than I believe in false songs anymore than I believe in false songs anymore than I believe in false songs right it's like um and so the basic idea right it's like um and so the basic idea right it's like um and so the basic idea is is that we have these memories is is that we have these memories is is that we have these memories reflect bits and pieces of what happened reflect bits and pieces of what happened reflect bits and pieces of what happened as well as our inferences and theories as well as our inferences and theories as well as our inferences and theories right so I'm a scientist and I collect right so I'm a scientist and I collect right so I'm a scientist and I collect data but I use I use theories to make data but I use I use theories to make data but I use I use theories to make sense of that data and so a memory is sense of that data and so a memory is sense of that data and so a memory is kind of a mix of all these things so kind of a mix of all these things so kind of a mix of all these things so where memories can go off the deep end where memories can go off the deep end where memories can go off the deep end and become what we would call and become what we would call and become what we would call conventionally as false memories are conventionally as false memories are conventionally as false memories are sometimes little distortions where we sometimes little distortions where we sometimes little distortions where we filled in the blanks the gaps in our filled in the blanks the gaps in our filled in the blanks the gaps in our memory based on things that we know but memory based on things that we know but memory based on things that we know but don't actually correspond to what don't actually correspond to what don't actually correspond to what happened right um so um if I were to happened right um so um if I were to happened right um so um if I were to tell you that I'm like you know a story tell you that I'm like you know a story tell you that I'm like you know a story about this person who's like worried about this person who's like worried about this person who's like worried that they have cancer or something like that they have cancer or something like that they have cancer or something like that and then you know they see a doctor that and then you know they see a doctor that and then you know they see a doctor and the doctor says well things are very and the doctor says well things are very and the doctor says well things are very much like you would have expected or much like you would have expected or much like you would have expected or like you know what you were afraid of or like you know what you were afraid of or like you know what you were afraid of or something when people remember that something when people remember that something when people remember that they'll often remember well the doctor they'll often remember well the doctor they'll often remember well the doctor told the patient that he had cancer even told the patient that he had cancer even told the patient that he had cancer even if that wasn't in the story because if that wasn't in the story because if that wasn't in the story because they're infusing meaning into that story they're infusing meaning into that story they're infusing meaning into that story right so that's a minor Distortion but right so that's a minor Distortion but right so that's a minor Distortion but what happens is is that sometimes things what happens is is that sometimes things what happens is is that sometimes things can really get out of hand where people

can really get out of hand where people can really get out of hand where people have trouble telling the differen in have trouble telling the differen in have trouble telling the differen in things that they've imagined versus things that they've imagined versus things that they've imagined versus things that happen but also as I told things that happen but also as I told things that happen but also as I told you the act of remembering can change you the act of remembering can change you the act of remembering can change the memory and so what happens then is the memory and so what happens then is the memory and so what happens then is you can actually be exposed to some you can actually be exposed to some you can actually be exposed to some misinformation and so Elizabeth Loftus misinformation and so Elizabeth Loftus misinformation and so Elizabeth Loftus was a real Pioneer in the work and was a real Pioneer in the work and was a real Pioneer in the work and there's lots of other work that's been there's lots of other work that's been there's lots of other work that's been done since um but basically it's like if done since um but basically it's like if done since um but basically it's like if you remember some event and then I tell you remember some event and then I tell you remember some event and then I tell you something about the event later on you something about the event later on you something about the event later on when you remember the event you might when you remember the event you might when you remember the event you might remember some original information from remember some original information from remember some original information from the event as well as some information the event as well as some information the event as well as some information about what I told you and sometimes if about what I told you and sometimes if about what I told you and sometimes if you're not able to tell the difference you're not able to tell the difference you're not able to tell the difference that information that I told you gets that information that I told you gets that information that I told you gets mixed into the story that you had mixed into the story that you had mixed into the story that you had originally so now I give you some more originally so now I give you some more originally so now I give you some more misinformation or you're exposed to some misinformation or you're exposed to some misinformation or you're exposed to some more information somewhere else and more information somewhere else and more information somewhere else and eventually your memory becomes totally eventually your memory becomes totally eventually your memory becomes totally detached from what happened and so detached from what happened and so detached from what happened and so sometimes you can have cases where sometimes you can have cases where sometimes you can have cases where people um this is very rare but you can people um this is very rare but you can people um this is very rare but you can do it in the lab too or like a do it in the lab too or like a do it in the lab too or like a significant not everybody but you know a significant not everybody but you know a significant not everybody but you know a chunk of people will fall for this where chunk of people will fall for this where chunk of people will fall for this where you can give people misinformation about you can give people misinformation about you can give people misinformation about an event that never took place and as an event that never took place and as an event that never took place and as they keep trying to remember that event they keep trying to remember that event they keep trying to remember that event more and more more what happens they more and more more what happens they more and more more what happens they start to imagine they start to pull up start to imagine they start to pull up start to imagine they start to pull up things from other experiences they've things from other experiences they've things from other experiences they've had and eventually they can stitch had and eventually they can stitch had and eventually they can stitch together a vivid memory of something together a vivid memory of something together a vivid memory of something that never happened because they're not that never happened because they're not that never happened because they're not remembering an event that happened

remembering an event that happened remembering an event that happened they're remembering the act of trying to they're remembering the act of trying to they're remembering the act of trying to remember what happened and basically remember what happened and basically remember what happened and basically putting it together into the wrong story putting it together into the wrong story putting it together into the wrong story so it's fascinating because this could so it's fascinating because this could so it's fascinating because this could probably happen at the a a collective probably happen at the a a collective probably happen at the a a collective level like this is probably what level like this is probably what level like this is probably what successful propaganda machines aim to do successful propaganda machines aim to do successful propaganda machines aim to do this creating false memory across this creating false memory across this creating false memory across thousands if not millions of Minds yeah thousands if not millions of Minds yeah thousands if not millions of Minds yeah absolutely um I mean uh this is exactly absolutely um I mean uh this is exactly absolutely um I mean uh this is exactly what they do and so all these kind of what they do and so all these kind of what they do and so all these kind of foibles of human memory get magnified foibles of human memory get magnified foibles of human memory get magnified when you start to have social when you start to have social when you start to have social interactions there's a whole literature interactions there's a whole literature interactions there's a whole literature on something called social contagion on something called social contagion on something called social contagion which is basically when misinformation which is basically when misinformation which is basically when misinformation spreads like a virus like you remember spreads like a virus like you remember spreads like a virus like you remember the same thing that I did but I give you the same thing that I did but I give you the same thing that I did but I give you a little bit of wrong information a little bit of wrong information a little bit of wrong information then that becomes part of your story of then that becomes part of your story of then that becomes part of your story of what happened because once you and I what happened because once you and I what happened because once you and I share a memory like I tell you about share a memory like I tell you about share a memory like I tell you about something I've experience and you tell something I've experience and you tell something I've experience and you tell me about your experience of the same me about your experience of the same me about your experience of the same event it's no longer your memory or my event it's no longer your memory or my event it's no longer your memory or my memory it's our memory and so now the memory it's our memory and so now the memory it's our memory and so now the misinformation spreads and the more you misinformation spreads and the more you misinformation spreads and the more you trust someone or the more powerful that trust someone or the more powerful that trust someone or the more powerful that person is the more of a voice they have person is the more of a voice they have person is the more of a voice they have in shaping that narrative right um and in shaping that narrative right um and in shaping that narrative right um and and there's all sorts of interesting and there's all sorts of interesting and there's all sorts of interesting ways in which misinformation can ways in which misinformation can ways in which misinformation can happened there's a great example of when happened there's a great example of when happened there's a great example of when John McCain and George Bush Jr were um John McCain and George Bush Jr were um John McCain and George Bush Jr were um in a primary and there were these polls in a primary and there were these polls in a primary and there were these polls where they would do these like I guess where they would do these like I guess where they would do these like I guess they were like not rooc calls but real

they were like not rooc calls but real they were like not rooc calls but real calls where they would PLL voters but calls where they would PLL voters but calls where they would PLL voters but they actually inserted some they actually inserted some they actually inserted some misinformation about McCain's beliefs on misinformation about McCain's beliefs on misinformation about McCain's beliefs on taxation I think and maybe it was taxation I think and maybe it was taxation I think and maybe it was something about illegitimate children or something about illegitimate children or something about illegitimate children or I don't really remember but they I don't really remember but they I don't really remember but they included misinformation in the quest included misinformation in the quest included misinformation in the quest that they asked like you know how do you that they asked like you know how do you that they asked like you know how do you feel about the fact that he wants to do feel about the fact that he wants to do feel about the fact that he wants to do this or something and so people would this or something and so people would this or something and so people would end up becoming convinced he had these end up becoming convinced he had these end up becoming convinced he had these you know policy things or these personal you know policy things or these personal you know policy things or these personal things that were not true just based on things that were not true just based on things that were not true just based on the polls that were being used so it was the polls that were being used so it was the polls that were being used so it was a case where interestingly a case where interestingly a case where interestingly enough the people who were using enough the people who were using enough the people who were using misinformation were actually ahead of misinformation were actually ahead of misinformation were actually ahead of the curve relative to the scientists who the curve relative to the scientists who the curve relative to the scientists who were trying to study these effects in were trying to study these effects in were trying to study these effects in memory yeah yeah it's memory yeah yeah it's memory yeah yeah it's um it's really interesting so it's not um it's really interesting so it's not um it's really interesting so it's not just about truth and falsehoods like us just about truth and falsehoods like us just about truth and falsehoods like us as intelligent reasoning machines but as intelligent reasoning machines but as intelligent reasoning machines but it's the formation of memories where it's the formation of memories where it's the formation of memories where they become like visceral you can they become like visceral you can they become like visceral you can rewrite history if you just look rewrite history if you just look rewrite history if you just look throughout the 20th throughout the 20th throughout the 20th century uh some of the dictatorships century uh some of the dictatorships century uh some of the dictatorships with Nazi Germany with uh with the with Nazi Germany with uh with the with Nazi Germany with uh with the Soviet Soviet Soviet Union effective propaganda machines can Union effective propaganda machines can Union effective propaganda machines can re re write our conceptions of History re re write our conceptions of History re re write our conceptions of History how we remember our own culture our how we remember our own culture our how we remember our own culture our upbringing all this kind of stuff and upbringing all this kind of stuff and upbringing all this kind of stuff and you could do quite a lot of damage in you could do quite a lot of damage in you could do quite a lot of damage in this way and then there's probably some this way and then there's probably some this way and then there's probably some kind of social contagion happening kind of social contagion happening kind of social contagion happening there like certain there like certain there like certain ideas that maybe initiated by the

ideas that maybe initiated by the ideas that maybe initiated by the propaganda machine can spread faster propaganda machine can spread faster propaganda machine can spread faster than others you could see that in modern than others you could see that in modern than others you could see that in modern day certain conspiracy theories there's day certain conspiracy theories there's day certain conspiracy theories there's just something about them that they are just something about them that they are just something about them that they are like really effective at spreading like really effective at spreading like really effective at spreading there's something sexy about them to there's something sexy about them to there's something sexy about them to people to to where uh something about people to to where uh something about people to to where uh something about the human mind eats it up and then uses the human mind eats it up and then uses the human mind eats it up and then uses that to construct memories as almost as that to construct memories as almost as that to construct memories as almost as as if they almost were there to witness as if they almost were there to witness as if they almost were there to witness whatever the content of the conspiracy whatever the content of the conspiracy whatever the content of the conspiracy theory is it's fascinating cuz once you theory is it's fascinating cuz once you theory is it's fascinating cuz once you feel like you remember a thing I feel feel like you remember a thing I feel feel like you remember a thing I feel like there's a certainty there's a it like there's a certainty there's a it like there's a certainty there's a it emboldens you to like say stuff like you emboldens you to like say stuff like you emboldens you to like say stuff like you really like it's not just you believe an really like it's not just you believe an really like it's not just you believe an idea is true or not you like it's at the idea is true or not you like it's at the idea is true or not you like it's at the core of your being core of your being core of your being that you you feel like you were there to that you you feel like you were there to that you you feel like you were there to watch the thing watch the thing watch the thing happen yeah I mean there's so much in happen yeah I mean there's so much in happen yeah I mean there's so much in what you're saying I mean one of the what you're saying I mean one of the what you're saying I mean one of the things is is that people's sense of things is is that people's sense of things is is that people's sense of collective identity is very much tied to collective identity is very much tied to collective identity is very much tied to Shared memories if we have a shared Shared memories if we have a shared Shared memories if we have a shared Narrative of the past or even better if Narrative of the past or even better if Narrative of the past or even better if we have a shared past we will feel more we have a shared past we will feel more we have a shared past we will feel more socially connected with each other and I socially connected with each other and I socially connected with each other and I will feel part of this group they're will feel part of this group they're will feel part of this group they're part of my tribe if I remember the same part of my tribe if I remember the same part of my tribe if I remember the same same things in the same way and you same things in the same way and you same things in the same way and you brought up this weaponization of history brought up this weaponization of history brought up this weaponization of history and you know it really speaks to I think and you know it really speaks to I think and you know it really speaks to I think one of the parts of memory which is that one of the parts of memory which is that one of the parts of memory which is that if you have a belief you will find and if you have a belief you will find and if you have a belief you will find and you have a goal in mind you will find you have a goal in mind you will find you have a goal in mind you will find stuff in memory that aligns with it and stuff in memory that aligns with it and stuff in memory that aligns with it and you won't see the parts in memory that

you won't see the parts in memory that you won't see the parts in memory that don't so a lot of the stories we put don't so a lot of the stories we put don't so a lot of the stories we put together are based on our together are based on our together are based on our perspectives right and so let's let's perspectives right and so let's let's perspectives right and so let's let's just zoom out for the M moment from like just zoom out for the M moment from like just zoom out for the M moment from like misinformation should take something misinformation should take something misinformation should take something even more fascinating but not as like even more fascinating but not as like even more fascinating but not as like you know scary um I was reading uh ton you know scary um I was reading uh ton you know scary um I was reading uh ton vietn but he wrote a book about the vietn but he wrote a book about the vietn but he wrote a book about the collective memory of the Vietnam War collective memory of the Vietnam War collective memory of the Vietnam War he's a Vietnamese um immigrant who was he's a Vietnamese um immigrant who was he's a Vietnamese um immigrant who was flown out as um after the war was over flown out as um after the war was over flown out as um after the war was over and so he went back to his family to get and so he went back to his family to get and so he went back to his family to get their stories about the war and they their stories about the war and they their stories about the war and they called it the American war not the called it the American war not the called it the American war not the Vietnam War right and that just kind of Vietnam War right and that just kind of Vietnam War right and that just kind of blew my mind having grown up in the US blew my mind having grown up in the US blew my mind having grown up in the US and having always heard about it as a and having always heard about it as a and having always heard about it as a Vietnam War but of course they call it Vietnam War but of course they call it Vietnam War but of course they call it the American war because that's what the American war because that's what the American war because that's what happened America came in right and happened America came in right and happened America came in right and that's based on their perspective which that's based on their perspective which that's based on their perspective which is a very valid is a very valid is a very valid perspective um and so that just gives perspective um and so that just gives perspective um and so that just gives you this idea of the way we put together you this idea of the way we put together you this idea of the way we put together these narratives based on our these narratives based on our these narratives based on our perspectives and I think the the the perspectives and I think the the the perspectives and I think the the the opportunities that we can have in memory opportunities that we can have in memory opportunities that we can have in memory is if we bring groups together from is if we bring groups together from is if we bring groups together from different perspectives and we allow them different perspectives and we allow them different perspectives and we allow them to talk to each other and we allow to talk to each other and we allow to talk to each other and we allow ourselves to listen I mean right now ourselves to listen I mean right now ourselves to listen I mean right now you'll hear a lot of just Jammer you you'll hear a lot of just Jammer you you'll hear a lot of just Jammer you know people going blah blah blah about know people going blah blah blah about know people going blah blah blah about Free Speech but they just want to listen Free Speech but they just want to listen Free Speech but they just want to listen to themselves right I mean it's like to themselves right I mean it's like to themselves right I mean it's like let's face it the old days before people let's face it the old days before people let's face it the old days before people were supposedly woke they were trying to were supposedly woke they were trying to were supposedly woke they were trying to ban two Live Crew or you know just think

ban two Live Crew or you know just think ban two Live Crew or you know just think about lety Bruce got canceled for about lety Bruce got canceled for about lety Bruce got canceled for cursing Jesus Christ you know it's like cursing Jesus Christ you know it's like cursing Jesus Christ you know it's like this is nothing new people like to hear this is nothing new people like to hear this is nothing new people like to hear things that disagree with them but um if things that disagree with them but um if things that disagree with them but um if you're in I mean you can see two you're in I mean you can see two you're in I mean you can see two situations in groups with memory one situations in groups with memory one situations in groups with memory one situation is you have like people who situation is you have like people who situation is you have like people who are very dominant who just take over the are very dominant who just take over the are very dominant who just take over the conversation and they basically what conversation and they basically what conversation and they basically what happens is the group remembers less from happens is the group remembers less from happens is the group remembers less from the experience and they remember more of the experience and they remember more of the experience and they remember more of what the dominant narrator says right what the dominant narrator says right what the dominant narrator says right now if you have a diverse group of now if you have a diverse group of now if you have a diverse group of people and I don't mean diverse in people and I don't mean diverse in people and I don't mean diverse in necessarily the human resources sense of necessarily the human resources sense of necessarily the human resources sense of the word I mean diverse in any way you the word I mean diverse in any way you the word I mean diverse in any way you want to take it right but diverse in want to take it right but diverse in want to take it right but diverse in every way hopefully and you give every way hopefully and you give every way hopefully and you give everyone a chance to speak and everyone a chance to speak and everyone a chance to speak and everyone's being appreciated for their everyone's being appreciated for their everyone's being appreciated for their unique contribution you get more unique contribution you get more unique contribution you get more accurate memories and you get more accurate memories and you get more accurate memories and you get more information from it right um even two information from it right um even two information from it right um even two people who come from very similar people who come from very similar people who come from very similar backgrounds if you can appreciate the backgrounds if you can appreciate the backgrounds if you can appreciate the unique contributions that each one has unique contributions that each one has unique contributions that each one has you can do a better job of generating you can do a better job of generating you can do a better job of generating information from memory and that's a way information from memory and that's a way information from memory and that's a way to inoculate ourselves I believe from to inoculate ourselves I believe from to inoculate ourselves I believe from misinformation in the Modern World um misinformation in the Modern World um misinformation in the Modern World um but like everything else it requires a but like everything else it requires a but like everything else it requires a certain tolerance for discomfort and I certain tolerance for discomfort and I certain tolerance for discomfort and I think when we don't have much time and I think when we don't have much time and I think when we don't have much time and I think when we're stressed out and when think when we're stressed out and when think when we're stressed out and when we are just tired it's very hard to we are just tired it's very hard to we are just tired it's very hard to tolerate tolerate tolerate discomfort and I mean social media has a discomfort and I mean social media has a discomfort and I mean social media has a lot of opportunity for this because it lot of opportunity for this because it lot of opportunity for this because it enables this distributed one-on-one

enables this distributed one-on-one enables this distributed one-on-one interaction that you're talking about interaction that you're talking about interaction that you're talking about where everybody has a voice but still where everybody has a voice but still where everybody has a voice but still our natural inclination you see this on our natural inclination you see this on our natural inclination you see this on social media there's a natural social media there's a natural social media there's a natural clustering of people and opinions and clustering of people and opinions and clustering of people and opinions and you just kind of you form these kind of you just kind of you form these kind of you just kind of you form these kind of bubbles I think that's a to me bubbles I think that's a to me bubbles I think that's a to me personally I think that's a technology personally I think that's a technology personally I think that's a technology problem that could be solved if there's problem that could be solved if there's problem that could be solved if there's a little bit of interaction kind a little bit of interaction kind a little bit of interaction kind respectful compassion interaction with respectful compassion interaction with respectful compassion interaction with people that have a very different memory people that have a very different memory people that have a very different memory that that respectful interaction will that that respectful interaction will that that respectful interaction will start to intermix the memories and ways start to intermix the memories and ways start to intermix the memories and ways of thinking to where you're slowly of thinking to where you're slowly of thinking to where you're slowly moving towards truth but that's a moving towards truth but that's a moving towards truth but that's a technology problem because uh naturally technology problem because uh naturally technology problem because uh naturally left our own devices we want to Cluster left our own devices we want to Cluster left our own devices we want to Cluster up in a tribe yeah and that's the human up in a tribe yeah and that's the human up in a tribe yeah and that's the human problem you know I think a lot of the problem you know I think a lot of the problem you know I think a lot of the problems that come up with technology problems that come up with technology problems that come up with technology aren't the technology itself as much as aren't the technology itself as much as aren't the technology itself as much as the fact that people adapt to the the fact that people adapt to the the fact that people adapt to the technology in maladaptive ways I mean technology in maladaptive ways I mean technology in maladaptive ways I mean one of my fears about AI is not what AI one of my fears about AI is not what AI one of my fears about AI is not what AI will do but what people will do I mean will do but what people will do I mean will do but what people will do I mean take text messaging right it's like it's take text messaging right it's like it's take text messaging right it's like it's pain in the ass to text people at least pain in the ass to text people at least pain in the ass to text people at least for me and so what happens is the for me and so what happens is the for me and so what happens is the communication becomes very Spartan and communication becomes very Spartan and communication becomes very Spartan and devoid of meaning right it's just very devoid of meaning right it's just very devoid of meaning right it's just very telegraphic and that's people adapting telegraphic and that's people adapting telegraphic and that's people adapting to the medium right I mean look at you to the medium right I mean look at you to the medium right I mean look at you you've got this uh keyboard right that's you've got this uh keyboard right that's you've got this uh keyboard right that's like got these like Dome shaped things like got these like Dome shaped things like got these like Dome shaped things and you've adapted to that to and you've adapted to that to and you've adapted to that to communicate right that's not the communicate right that's not the communicate right that's not the technology adapting to you that's you technology adapting to you that's you technology adapting to you that's you adapting to the technology and I think

adapting to the technology and I think adapting to the technology and I think with you know one of the things I with you know one of the things I with you know one of the things I learned when Google started to introduce learned when Google started to introduce learned when Google started to introduce autocomplete and emails I started to use autocomplete and emails I started to use autocomplete and emails I started to use it and about a third of the time I was it and about a third of the time I was it and about a third of the time I was like this isn't what I want to say a like this isn't what I want to say a like this isn't what I want to say a third of the time I'd be like this is third of the time I'd be like this is third of the time I'd be like this is exactly what I wanted to say and a third exactly what I wanted to say and a third exactly what I wanted to say and a third of the time I was saying well this is of the time I was saying well this is of the time I was saying well this is good enough I'll just go with it right good enough I'll just go with it right good enough I'll just go with it right and so what happens is it's not that the and so what happens is it's not that the and so what happens is it's not that the technology necessarily is doing anything technology necessarily is doing anything technology necessarily is doing anything so bad as much as it's just going to so bad as much as it's just going to so bad as much as it's just going to constrain my language because I'm just constrain my language because I'm just constrain my language because I'm just doing what's being suggested to me and doing what's being suggested to me and doing what's being suggested to me and so this is why I say you know kind of so this is why I say you know kind of so this is why I say you know kind of like my manthra for some of what I've like my manthra for some of what I've like my manthra for some of what I've learned about everything in memory is to learned about everything in memory is to learned about everything in memory is to diversify your training data basically diversify your training data basically diversify your training data basically because otherwise you're going to be so because otherwise you're going to be so because otherwise you're going to be so like humans have this capability to be like humans have this capability to be like humans have this capability to be so much more creative than anything so much more creative than anything so much more creative than anything generative AI will put together at least generative AI will put together at least generative AI will put together at least right now who knows where this goes but right now who knows where this goes but right now who knows where this goes but it can also go the opposite direction it can also go the opposite direction it can also go the opposite direction where people could become much much less where people could become much much less where people could become much much less creative if they just become more and creative if they just become more and creative if they just become more and more like resistant to discomfort you more like resistant to discomfort you more like resistant to discomfort you know and resistant to exposing know and resistant to exposing know and resistant to exposing themselves to novelty to cognitive themselves to novelty to cognitive themselves to novelty to cognitive dissonance and so forth I think there is dissonance and so forth I think there is dissonance and so forth I think there is a dance between natural human adaptation a dance between natural human adaptation a dance between natural human adaptation of technology and the people that uh the of technology and the people that uh the of technology and the people that uh the design the engineering of that design the engineering of that design the engineering of that technology so I think there's a lot of technology so I think there's a lot of technology so I think there's a lot of opportunity to create like this keyboard opportunity to create like this keyboard opportunity to create like this keyboard things that on net are positive for uh things that on net are positive for uh things that on net are positive for uh human behavior so we adapt and all this human behavior so we adapt and all this human behavior so we adapt and all this kind of stuff but when you look at the

kind of stuff but when you look at the kind of stuff but when you look at the long Arc of History across years and long Arc of History across years and long Arc of History across years and cases has Humanity been flourishing are cases has Humanity been flourishing are cases has Humanity been flourishing are are humans creating more awesome stuff are humans creating more awesome stuff are humans creating more awesome stuff are humans happier all that kind of are humans happier all that kind of are humans happier all that kind of stuff and so there I think technology stuff and so there I think technology stuff and so there I think technology onet is uh has been and I think maybe onet is uh has been and I think maybe onet is uh has been and I think maybe hope will always will always be on that hope will always will always be on that hope will always will always be on that a positive thing do you think people are a positive thing do you think people are a positive thing do you think people are happier now than they were 50 years ago happier now than they were 50 years ago happier now than they were 50 years ago or 100 years ago yes yes I don't know or 100 years ago yes yes I don't know or 100 years ago yes yes I don't know about that I think humans in about that I think humans in about that I think humans in general like to uh remin about the past general like to uh remin about the past general like to uh remin about the past like the times are better true and like the times are better true and like the times are better true and complain about the weather today or complain about the weather today or complain about the weather today or complain about whatever today cuz we complain about whatever today cuz we complain about whatever today cuz we there's this kind of complainy engine there's this kind of complainy engine there's this kind of complainy engine that just there's so much pleasure in that just there's so much pleasure in that just there's so much pleasure in saying you know life sucks for some saying you know life sucks for some saying you know life sucks for some reason and that's why I love punk rock reason and that's why I love punk rock reason and that's why I love punk rock exactly I mean there's something in exactly I mean there's something in exactly I mean there's something in humans that loves humans that loves humans that loves complaining even about trivial things complaining even about trivial things complaining even about trivial things but uh complaining about change but uh complaining about change but uh complaining about change complaining about everything But complaining about everything But complaining about everything But ultimately I think on net on every ultimately I think on net on every ultimately I think on net on every measure uh things are getting better measure uh things are getting better measure uh things are getting better life is getting better oh life is life is getting better oh life is life is getting better oh life is getting better but I don't know getting better but I don't know getting better but I don't know necessarily that tracks people's necessarily that tracks people's necessarily that tracks people's happiness right I mean I would argue happiness right I mean I would argue happiness right I mean I would argue that maybe who knows I don't know this that maybe who knows I don't know this that maybe who knows I don't know this but I wouldn't be surprised if people in but I wouldn't be surprised if people in but I wouldn't be surprised if people in hunter gatherer hunter gatherer hunter gatherer societies are happier I mean I wouldn't societies are happier I mean I wouldn't societies are happier I mean I wouldn't be surprised if they're happier than be surprised if they're happier than be surprised if they're happier than people who have access to modern people who have access to modern people who have access to modern medicine and email and so phones well I

medicine and email and so phones well I medicine and email and so phones well I don't think there's a question whether don't think there's a question whether don't think there's a question whether you take hunter gatherer folks and put you take hunter gatherer folks and put you take hunter gatherer folks and put them into modern day and give them them into modern day and give them them into modern day and give them enough time to adapt they would be much enough time to adapt they would be much enough time to adapt they would be much happier the question is in terms of happier the question is in terms of happier the question is in terms of every single problem they've had is now every single problem they've had is now every single problem they've had is now solved there's not food there's solved there's not food there's solved there's not food there's guarantee of survival and shelter and guarantee of survival and shelter and guarantee of survival and shelter and all this kind of stuff so what you're all this kind of stuff so what you're all this kind of stuff so what you're asking is a deeper sort of biological asking is a deeper sort of biological asking is a deeper sort of biological question do we want to be a Warner question do we want to be a Warner question do we want to be a Warner Herzog at the movie Happy People life in Herzog at the movie Happy People life in Herzog at the movie Happy People life in the tiger do we want to be busy 100% of the tiger do we want to be busy 100% of the tiger do we want to be busy 100% of our time our time our time hunting Gathering surviving worried hunting Gathering surviving worried hunting Gathering surviving worried about the next day maybe that constant about the next day maybe that constant about the next day maybe that constant struggle ultimately creates a more struggle ultimately creates a more struggle ultimately creates a more fulfilling life I don't know but I do fulfilling life I don't know but I do fulfilling life I don't know but I do know this modern society allows us to uh know this modern society allows us to uh know this modern society allows us to uh when we're sick to find medicine to find when we're sick to find medicine to find when we're sick to find medicine to find cures when we're hungry to get food much cures when we're hungry to get food much cures when we're hungry to get food much more than we did even 100 years ago and more than we did even 100 years ago and more than we did even 100 years ago and uh there's many more activities ities uh there's many more activities ities uh there's many more activities ities that you could perform or creative all that you could perform or creative all that you could perform or creative all these kinds of stuff that enables the these kinds of stuff that enables the these kinds of stuff that enables the flourishing of humans at the individual flourishing of humans at the individual flourishing of humans at the individual level whether that leads to happiness I level whether that leads to happiness I level whether that leads to happiness I mean that's a very deep philosophical mean that's a very deep philosophical mean that's a very deep philosophical question maybe question maybe question maybe struggle deep struggle is necessary for struggle deep struggle is necessary for struggle deep struggle is necessary for happiness or maybe cultural connection happiness or maybe cultural connection happiness or maybe cultural connection you know uh maybe it's about like you know uh maybe it's about like you know uh maybe it's about like functioning in social groups that are functioning in social groups that are functioning in social groups that are meaningful and like having time but I do meaningful and like having time but I do meaningful and like having time but I do think this is there was an interesting think this is there was an interesting think this is there was an interesting memory related thing which is that if

memory related thing which is that if memory related thing which is that if you look at like things like you look at like things like you look at like things like reinforcement learning for instance reinforcement learning for instance reinforcement learning for instance you're not learning you're not learning you're not learning necessarily every time you get a reward necessarily every time you get a reward necessarily every time you get a reward if it's the same reward you're not if it's the same reward you're not if it's the same reward you're not learning that much you mainly learn if learning that much you mainly learn if learning that much you mainly learn if it deviates from your expectation of it deviates from your expectation of it deviates from your expectation of what you're supposed to get right so what you're supposed to get right so what you're supposed to get right so it's like you get a paycheck every you it's like you get a paycheck every you it's like you get a paycheck every you know month from MIT or whatever right know month from MIT or whatever right know month from MIT or whatever right and it's like you're kind of you and it's like you're kind of you and it's like you're kind of you probably don't even kind of get excited probably don't even kind of get excited probably don't even kind of get excited about it when you get the paycheck but about it when you get the paycheck but about it when you get the paycheck but if they cut your salary you're going to if they cut your salary you're going to if they cut your salary you're going to be p and if they increase your salary oh be p and if they increase your salary oh be p and if they increase your salary oh good I got a Bonus you know and that good I got a Bonus you know and that good I got a Bonus you know and that adaptation and that ability that adaptation and that ability that adaptation and that ability that basically you learn to expect these basically you learn to expect these basically you learn to expect these things I think is a major source of I things I think is a major source of I things I think is a major source of I guess it's a major way in which we're guess it's a major way in which we're guess it's a major way in which we're kind of more in my opinion wired to kind of more in my opinion wired to kind of more in my opinion wired to strive and not be happy to be in a state strive and not be happy to be in a state strive and not be happy to be in a state of wanting and if you know so people of wanting and if you know so people of wanting and if you know so people talk about dopamine for instance being talk about dopamine for instance being talk about dopamine for instance being this pleasure chemical and it's like this pleasure chemical and it's like this pleasure chemical and it's like there's like lot of compelling research there's like lot of compelling research there's like lot of compelling research to suggest it's not about pleasure at to suggest it's not about pleasure at to suggest it's not about pleasure at all it's about the discomfort that all it's about the discomfort that all it's about the discomfort that energizes you to get things to seek a energizes you to get things to seek a energizes you to get things to seek a reward right and so you could give an reward right and so you could give an reward right and so you could give an animal that's been deprived of dopamine animal that's been deprived of dopamine animal that's been deprived of dopamine a reward and oh yeah I enjoy it it's a reward and oh yeah I enjoy it it's a reward and oh yeah I enjoy it it's pretty good but they're not going to do pretty good but they're not going to do pretty good but they're not going to do anything to get it you know and uh just anything to get it you know and uh just anything to get it you know and uh just one of the weird things in our one of the weird things in our one of the weird things in our researches Is We I got into curiosity researches Is We I got into curiosity researches Is We I got into curiosity from a postto in my lab matius Gruber from a postto in my lab matius Gruber from a postto in my lab matius Gruber and one of the things that we found is

and one of the things that we found is and one of the things that we found is when we gave people a question like uh a when we gave people a question like uh a when we gave people a question like uh a trivia question that they wanted the trivia question that they wanted the trivia question that they wanted the answer to the question the more Curious answer to the question the more Curious answer to the question the more Curious people were about the answer the more people were about the answer the more people were about the answer the more activity in these dopamine related activity in these dopamine related activity in these dopamine related circuits in the brain we would see um circuits in the brain we would see um circuits in the brain we would see um and again that was not driven by the and again that was not driven by the and again that was not driven by the answer per se but by the question so it answer per se but by the question so it answer per se but by the question so it was not about getting the information it was not about getting the information it was not about getting the information it was about the drive to seek the was about the drive to seek the was about the drive to seek the information um but but it depends on how information um but but it depends on how information um but but it depends on how you take that if you get this you take that if you get this you take that if you get this uncomfortable gap between what you know uncomfortable gap between what you know uncomfortable gap between what you know and what you want to know you could and what you want to know you could and what you want to know you could either use that to motivate you and either use that to motivate you and either use that to motivate you and energize you or you could use it to say energize you or you could use it to say energize you or you could use it to say I don't want to hear about this this I don't want to hear about this this I don't want to hear about this this disagrees with my beliefs I'm going to disagrees with my beliefs I'm going to disagrees with my beliefs I'm going to go back to my echo chamber you go back to my echo chamber you go back to my echo chamber you know know know yeah I like what you said that maybe yeah I like what you said that maybe yeah I like what you said that maybe we're designed to be in a kind of we're designed to be in a kind of we're designed to be in a kind of constant state of wanting which by the constant state of wanting which by the constant state of wanting which by the way is a pretty good either band name or way is a pretty good either band name or way is a pretty good either band name or rock song name state state state of rock song name state state state of rock song name state state state of wanting that's like a hardcore band name wanting that's like a hardcore band name wanting that's like a hardcore band name yeah yeah pretty good but I also like yeah yeah pretty good but I also like yeah yeah pretty good but I also like the hedonic treadmill hedonic treadmill the hedonic treadmill hedonic treadmill the hedonic treadmill hedonic treadmill is pretty good yeah yeah we could use is pretty good yeah yeah we could use is pretty good yeah yeah we could use that for like our uh techno project I that for like our uh techno project I that for like our uh techno project I think you mean the one we're starting think you mean the one we're starting think you mean the one we're starting yeah exactly okay yeah exactly okay yeah exactly okay great uh we're going on tour great uh we're going on tour great uh we're going on tour soon this is this is our announcement we soon this is this is our announcement we soon this is this is our announcement we could build a false memory of a show in could build a false memory of a show in could build a false memory of a show in fact if you want let's just put it all fact if you want let's just put it all fact if you want let's just put it all together so we don't even have to do all together so we don't even have to do all together so we don't even have to do all the work to play the show we can just the work to play the show we can just the work to play the show we can just create a memory of it and might as well

create a memory of it and might as well create a memory of it and might as well happen cuz the remembering self is in happen cuz the remembering self is in happen cuz the remembering self is in charge anyway so let me ask you about we charge anyway so let me ask you about we charge anyway so let me ask you about we talked about false memories but you know talked about false memories but you know talked about false memories but you know in the legal system false confessions I in the legal system false confessions I in the legal system false confessions I remember reading uh 1984 where sorry for remember reading uh 1984 where sorry for remember reading uh 1984 where sorry for the dark turn of our conversation but uh the dark turn of our conversation but uh the dark turn of our conversation but uh Through Torture you Through Torture you Through Torture you can make people say anything and can make people say anything and can make people say anything and essentially remember anything I wonder essentially remember anything I wonder essentially remember anything I wonder to which degree there's like truth to to which degree there's like truth to to which degree there's like truth to that if you look at the torture that that if you look at the torture that that if you look at the torture that happened in the Soviet Union to for happened in the Soviet Union to for happened in the Soviet Union to for confessions all that kind of stuff how confessions all that kind of stuff how confessions all that kind of stuff how much can you really get people to much can you really get people to much can you really get people to really yeah to force false memories I really yeah to force false memories I really yeah to force false memories I guess yeah I mean I think uh um there's guess yeah I mean I think uh um there's guess yeah I mean I think uh um there's a lot of history of this actually in uh a lot of history of this actually in uh a lot of history of this actually in uh the criminal justice system uh you might the criminal justice system uh you might the criminal justice system uh you might have heard the term the third degree if have heard the term the third degree if have heard the term the third degree if you actually look it up historically it you actually look it up historically it you actually look it up historically it was a very intense set of eatings and was a very intense set of eatings and was a very intense set of eatings and you know starvation and you know starvation and you know starvation and physical uh demands that they would physical uh demands that they would physical uh demands that they would place on people to get them to talk and place on people to get them to talk and place on people to get them to talk and you know there's certainly a lot of work you know there's certainly a lot of work you know there's certainly a lot of work in the that's been done by the CIA in in the that's been done by the CIA in in the that's been done by the CIA in terms of enhanced ter interrogation terms of enhanced ter interrogation terms of enhanced ter interrogation techniques and from what I understand techniques and from what I understand techniques and from what I understand the the research actually shows that the the research actually shows that the the research actually shows that they just produce what people want to they just produce what people want to they just produce what people want to hear not necessarily the the information hear not necessarily the the information hear not necessarily the the information that that is being looked for and the that that is being looked for and the that that is being looked for and the reason is is that I mean there's reason is is that I mean there's reason is is that I mean there's different reasons I mean one is people different reasons I mean one is people different reasons I mean one is people just get tired of being tortured and just get tired of being tortured and just get tired of being tortured and just say whatever but uh another part of

just say whatever but uh another part of just say whatever but uh another part of it is is that you create a very it is is that you create a very it is is that you create a very interesting set of conditions where interesting set of conditions where interesting set of conditions where there's an authority figure telling you there's an authority figure telling you there's an authority figure telling you something that you did this we know you something that you did this we know you something that you did this we know you did this we have witnesses saying you did this we have witnesses saying you did this we have witnesses saying you did this so now you start to question did this so now you start to question did this so now you start to question yourself then they put you under stress yourself then they put you under stress yourself then they put you under stress maybe they're not feeding you maybe maybe they're not feeding you maybe maybe they're not feeding you maybe they're kind of like making you be cold they're kind of like making you be cold they're kind of like making you be cold or you know exposing you to like uh or you know exposing you to like uh or you know exposing you to like uh music that you can't stand or something music that you can't stand or something music that you can't stand or something whatever it is right it's like they're whatever it is right it's like they're whatever it is right it's like they're they're creating this physical stress they're creating this physical stress they're creating this physical stress and so stress starts to act on you know and so stress starts to act on you know and so stress starts to act on you know starts to downregulate the prefrontal starts to downregulate the prefrontal starts to downregulate the prefrontal cortex you're not necessarily as good at cortex you're not necessarily as good at cortex you're not necessarily as good at monitoring the accuracy of stuff then monitoring the accuracy of stuff then monitoring the accuracy of stuff then they start to get nice to you and they they start to get nice to you and they they start to get nice to you and they say imagine you know okay I know you say imagine you know okay I know you say imagine you know okay I know you don't remember this but maybe we can don't remember this but maybe we can don't remember this but maybe we can walk you through how it could have walk you through how it could have walk you through how it could have happened and they feed you the happened and they feed you the happened and they feed you the information and so you're in this information and so you're in this information and so you're in this weakened mental state and you're being weakened mental state and you're being weakened mental state and you're being encouraged to imagine things by people encouraged to imagine things by people encouraged to imagine things by people who give you a plausible scenario and at who give you a plausible scenario and at who give you a plausible scenario and at some point certain people can be very some point certain people can be very some point certain people can be very coaxed into creating a memory for coaxed into creating a memory for coaxed into creating a memory for something that never happened and and something that never happened and and something that never happened and and there's actually some pretty convincing there's actually some pretty convincing there's actually some pretty convincing cases out there where you don't know cases out there where you don't know cases out there where you don't know exactly the truth there's a Sheriff for exactly the truth there's a Sheriff for exactly the truth there's a Sheriff for instance who came to believe that he had instance who came to believe that he had instance who came to believe that he had a false memory I mean that he had a a false memory I mean that he had a a false memory I mean that he had a memory of doing sexual abuse based on memory of doing sexual abuse based on memory of doing sexual abuse based on you know essentially I think it was U um you know essentially I think it was U um you know essentially I think it was U um you know I'm not going to tell the story you know I'm not going to tell the story you know I'm not going to tell the story because I don't remember it well enough because I don't remember it well enough because I don't remember it well enough to necessarily accurately give it to you to necessarily accurately give it to you to necessarily accurately give it to you but people could look this stuff up

but people could look this stuff up but people could look this stuff up there are definitely stories out there there are definitely stories out there there are definitely stories out there like this where people confess to crimes like this where people confess to crimes like this where people confess to crimes that they just didn't do and objective that they just didn't do and objective that they just didn't do and objective evidence came out later on um but evidence came out later on um but evidence came out later on um but there's a basic recipe for it which is there's a basic recipe for it which is there's a basic recipe for it which is you feed people the information that you you feed people the information that you you feed people the information that you want them to remember you stress them want them to remember you stress them want them to remember you stress them out you have an authority figure kind of out you have an authority figure kind of out you have an authority figure kind of like pushing this information on them uh like pushing this information on them uh like pushing this information on them uh or you motivate them to produce the or you motivate them to produce the or you motivate them to produce the information you're looking for and that information you're looking for and that information you're looking for and that pretty much over time gives you what you pretty much over time gives you what you pretty much over time gives you what you want it's really want it's really want it's really tragic tragic tragic that centralized power can can use these that centralized power can can use these that centralized power can can use these kinds of tools to destroy lives sad since there's a theme about music sad since there's a theme about music throughout this conversation one of the throughout this conversation one of the throughout this conversation one of the best topics for song songs is heartbreak best topics for song songs is heartbreak best topics for song songs is heartbreak love in general but heartbreak uh why love in general but heartbreak uh why love in general but heartbreak uh why and how do we remember and forget and how do we remember and forget and how do we remember and forget heartbreak asking for a friend oh God heartbreak asking for a friend oh God heartbreak asking for a friend oh God that's so hard to asking for a friend I that's so hard to asking for a friend I that's so hard to asking for a friend I love that uh um oh it's such a hard one love that uh um oh it's such a hard one love that uh um oh it's such a hard one well so I mean part of this is we tend well so I mean part of this is we tend well so I mean part of this is we tend to go back to particular times that are to go back to particular times that are to go back to particular times that are the more emotionally intense periods um the more emotionally intense periods um the more emotionally intense periods um and so that's a part of it and again and so that's a part of it and again and so that's a part of it and again memory is designed to kind of capture memory is designed to kind of capture memory is designed to kind of capture these things that are biologically these things that are biologically these things that are biologically significant and attachment is a you know

significant and attachment is a you know significant and attachment is a you know big part of biological significance for big part of biological significance for big part of biological significance for humans right human relationships are humans right human relationships are humans right human relationships are super important and sometimes that super important and sometimes that super important and sometimes that heartbreak comes with ch massive changes heartbreak comes with ch massive changes heartbreak comes with ch massive changes in your beliefs about somebody say if in your beliefs about somebody say if in your beliefs about somebody say if they cheated on you or something like they cheated on you or something like they cheated on you or something like that um or regrets and you kind of that um or regrets and you kind of that um or regrets and you kind of ruminate about things that you've done ruminate about things that you've done ruminate about things that you've done wrong there's really so many reasons though there's really so many reasons though but you know I mean I I've had this I um but you know I mean I I've had this I um but you know I mean I I've had this I um uh my first pet I had as you know was we uh my first pet I had as you know was we uh my first pet I had as you know was we got it for a wedding present as a cat got it for a wedding present as a cat got it for a wedding present as a cat and got it after like uh but it died of and got it after like uh but it died of and got it after like uh but it died of FIP when it was 4 years old and you know FIP when it was 4 years old and you know FIP when it was 4 years old and you know I just would see her everywhere around I just would see her everywhere around I just would see her everywhere around the house you know we got another cat the house you know we got another cat the house you know we got another cat then we got a dog dog eventually died of then we got a dog dog eventually died of then we got a dog dog eventually died of cancer and the cat just died recently cancer and the cat just died recently cancer and the cat just died recently and uh you know so we got a new dog and uh you know so we got a new dog and uh you know so we got a new dog because I kept seeing the dog around and because I kept seeing the dog around and because I kept seeing the dog around and I was just so heartbroken about this and I was just so heartbroken about this and I was just so heartbroken about this and but I still remember the pets that died but I still remember the pets that died but I still remember the pets that died it just comes back to you I mean it's it just comes back to you I mean it's it just comes back to you I mean it's part of this I think there's also part of this I think there's also part of this I think there's also something about attachment that's just something about attachment that's just something about attachment that's just so crucial that drives again these so crucial that drives again these so crucial that drives again these things that we want to remember and that things that we want to remember and that things that we want to remember and that gives us that longing sometimes gives us that longing sometimes gives us that longing sometimes sometimes it's also not just about the sometimes it's also not just about the sometimes it's also not just about the Heartbreak but about the positive Heartbreak but about the positive Heartbreak but about the positive aspects of it right cu the loss comes aspects of it right cu the loss comes aspects of it right cu the loss comes from not only the fact that the from not only the fact that the from not only the fact that the relationship is over but you had all of relationship is over but you had all of relationship is over but you had all of these good things before that you can these good things before that you can these good things before that you can now see in a new light right and so part

now see in a new light right and so part now see in a new light right and so part of one of the things that I found from of one of the things that I found from of one of the things that I found from my clinical background that really I my clinical background that really I my clinical background that really I think gave me a different perspective on think gave me a different perspective on think gave me a different perspective on memory is so much of the therapy process memory is so much of the therapy process memory is so much of the therapy process was guided towards reframing and getting was guided towards reframing and getting was guided towards reframing and getting people to look at the past in a people to look at the past in a people to look at the past in a different way not by imposing changing different way not by imposing changing different way not by imposing changing people's memories or Not by imposing an people's memories or Not by imposing an people's memories or Not by imposing an interpretation but just offering a interpretation but just offering a interpretation but just offering a different perspective and maybe one different perspective and maybe one different perspective and maybe one that's kind of more optimized towards that's kind of more optimized towards that's kind of more optimized towards learning and you know um an appreciation learning and you know um an appreciation learning and you know um an appreciation maybe or gratitude whatever it is right maybe or gratitude whatever it is right maybe or gratitude whatever it is right that gives you a way of taking I think that gives you a way of taking I think that gives you a way of taking I think you said it in the beginning right where you said it in the beginning right where you said it in the beginning right where you can have this kind of like dark you can have this kind of like dark you can have this kind of like dark experiences and you can use it as experiences and you can use it as experiences and you can use it as training data to you know grow in new training data to you know grow in new training data to you know grow in new ways but it's hard this uh I often go ways but it's hard this uh I often go ways but it's hard this uh I often go back to this moment this show Louie with back to this moment this show Louie with back to this moment this show Louie with Lou CK MH where he's all heartbroken Lou CK MH where he's all heartbroken Lou CK MH where he's all heartbroken about a breakup with a woman he about a breakup with a woman he about a breakup with a woman he loves and uh an older gentleman tells loves and uh an older gentleman tells loves and uh an older gentleman tells him that that that's actually the best him that that that's actually the best him that that that's actually the best part that heartbreak because you get to part that heartbreak because you get to part that heartbreak because you get to intensely experience how valuable this intensely experience how valuable this intensely experience how valuable this love was he says the worst part is love was he says the worst part is love was he says the worst part is forgetting it is actually when you get forgetting it is actually when you get forgetting it is actually when you get over the Heartbreak that's the worst over the Heartbreak that's the worst over the Heartbreak that's the worst part so I I sometimes think about that part so I I sometimes think about that part so I I sometimes think about that because you know having the love and because you know having the love and because you know having the love and losing losing losing it like the losing it is when it like the losing it is when it like the losing it is when you sometimes feel it the deepest which

you sometimes feel it the deepest which you sometimes feel it the deepest which is an interesting um way to celebrate is an interesting um way to celebrate is an interesting um way to celebrate the past and relive it it's it sucks the past and relive it it's it sucks the past and relive it it's it sucks that you don't have a thing but when you that you don't have a thing but when you that you don't have a thing but when you don't have a thing it's a it's a a good don't have a thing it's a it's a a good don't have a thing it's a it's a a good moment to viscerally experience the moment to viscerally experience the moment to viscerally experience the memories of something that you know memories of something that you know memories of something that you know appreciate even more so you don't appreciate even more so you don't appreciate even more so you don't believe that an Owner of a Lonely Heart believe that an Owner of a Lonely Heart believe that an Owner of a Lonely Heart is much better than an owner of a broken is much better than an owner of a broken is much better than an owner of a broken heart you think an owner of a broken heart you think an owner of a broken heart you think an owner of a broken heart is better than the Owner of a heart is better than the Owner of a heart is better than the Owner of a Lonely Heart yes for sure I think so I Lonely Heart yes for sure I think so I Lonely Heart yes for sure I think so I think so but I'm going have to day by think so but I'm going have to day by think so but I'm going have to day by day I don't know I'm I'm gonna have to day I don't know I'm I'm gonna have to day I don't know I'm I'm gonna have to listen to some more Bruce Springsteen to listen to some more Bruce Springsteen to listen to some more Bruce Springsteen to figure that one out well you know it's figure that one out well you know it's figure that one out well you know it's funny because it's like after I turned funny because it's like after I turned funny because it's like after I turned 50 I think of death all the time like I 50 I think of death all the time like I 50 I think of death all the time like I just think that you know in like I just think that you know in like I just think that you know in like I probably I have fewer probably a fewer probably I have fewer probably a fewer probably I have fewer probably a fewer years ahead of me than I behind me right years ahead of me than I behind me right years ahead of me than I behind me right so I think about I think about one thing so I think about I think about one thing so I think about I think about one thing which is what are the memories that I which is what are the memories that I which is what are the memories that I want to carry with me for the next want to carry with me for the next want to carry with me for the next period of time and also about like just period of time and also about like just period of time and also about like just the fact that everything around me could the fact that everything around me could the fact that everything around me could be you know I know more people who are be you know I know more people who are be you know I know more people who are you know dying for various reasons and you know dying for various reasons and you know dying for various reasons and so um I not lots I'm not that old right so um I not lots I'm not that old right so um I not lots I'm not that old right it's like but you know it's uh um it's it's like but you know it's uh um it's it's like but you know it's uh um it's something I think about a lot and I'm something I think about a lot and I'm something I think about a lot and I'm reminded of like how I talked to reminded of like how I talked to reminded of like how I talked to somebody who's like uh you know who's a somebody who's like uh you know who's a somebody who's like uh you know who's a Buddhist and I was like you know the Buddhist and I was like you know the Buddhist and I was like you know the whole idea of Buddhism is renouncing whole idea of Buddhism is renouncing whole idea of Buddhism is renouncing attachments some way the the idea of attachments some way the the idea of attachments some way the the idea of Buddhism is like staying out of the Buddhism is like staying out of the Buddhism is like staying out of the world of memory and staying in the world of memory and staying in the world of memory and staying in the moment right and they talked about you

moment right and they talked about you moment right and they talked about you know it's like how do you how do you know it's like how do you how do you know it's like how do you how do you renounce attachments to the people that renounce attachments to the people that renounce attachments to the people that you love right and they're just saying you love right and they're just saying you love right and they're just saying well I appreciate that I have this well I appreciate that I have this well I appreciate that I have this moment with them and knowing that they moment with them and knowing that they moment with them and knowing that they will die makes me appreciate this moment will die makes me appreciate this moment will die makes me appreciate this moment that much more I mean you said something that much more I mean you said something that much more I mean you said something similar right in your daily routine that similar right in your daily routine that similar right in your daily routine that you think about things this way right you think about things this way right you think about things this way right yeah I meditate on yeah I meditate on yeah I meditate on mortality uh every mortality uh every mortality uh every day but I don't know I at the same time day but I don't know I at the same time day but I don't know I at the same time that really makes you appreciate the that really makes you appreciate the that really makes you appreciate the moment and live in the moment and uh I moment and live in the moment and uh I moment and live in the moment and uh I also appreciate the full deep roller also appreciate the full deep roller also appreciate the full deep roller coaster of suffering involved in life coaster of suffering involved in life coaster of suffering involved in life the the little and the big too so I the the little and the big too so I the the little and the big too so I don't know I'm the Buddhist kind of don't know I'm the Buddhist kind of don't know I'm the Buddhist kind of removing yourself from the world or or removing yourself from the world or or removing yourself from the world or or the stoic removing yourself from the the stoic removing yourself from the the stoic removing yourself from the world the world of emotion I'm torn world the world of emotion I'm torn world the world of emotion I'm torn about that one I'm not sure well you about that one I'm not sure well you about that one I'm not sure well you know this is where Hinduism in Buddhism know this is where Hinduism in Buddhism know this is where Hinduism in Buddhism or at least some strains of Hinduism and or at least some strains of Hinduism and or at least some strains of Hinduism and Buddhism differ in Buddhism differ in Buddhism differ in Hinduism uh like if you read the bhat Hinduism uh like if you read the bhat Hinduism uh like if you read the bhat Gita the philosophy is not one of Gita the philosophy is not one of Gita the philosophy is not one of renouncing the world because the idea is renouncing the world because the idea is renouncing the world because the idea is is that not doing something is no is that not doing something is no is that not doing something is no different than doing something right so different than doing something right so different than doing something right so um what they argue and again you could um what they argue and again you could um what they argue and again you could interpret in different positive and interpret in different positive and interpret in different positive and negative but the argument is is that you negative but the argument is is that you negative but the argument is is that you don't want to renounce action but you don't want to renounce action but you don't want to renounce action but you want to renounce the fruits of the want to renounce the fruits of the want to renounce the fruits of the action you don't do it because of the action you don't do it because of the action you don't do it because of the outcome you do it because of the process outcome you do it because of the process outcome you do it because of the process because the process is part of the because the process is part of the because the process is part of the balance of the world that you're trying

balance of the world that you're trying balance of the world that you're trying to preserve right and of course you to preserve right and of course you to preserve right and of course you could take that different ways but I I could take that different ways but I I could take that different ways but I I really think about that from time to really think about that from time to really think about that from time to time in terms of like you know letting time in terms of like you know letting time in terms of like you know letting go of this idea does this book sell or go of this idea does this book sell or go of this idea does this book sell or trying to you know like impress you and trying to you know like impress you and trying to you know like impress you and get you to laugh at my jokes or whatever get you to laugh at my jokes or whatever get you to laugh at my jokes or whatever and just be more like I'm sharing this and just be more like I'm sharing this and just be more like I'm sharing this information with you and you know information with you and you know information with you and you know getting to know you or whatever it is getting to know you or whatever it is getting to know you or whatever it is but it's it's hard right it's like but it's it's hard right it's like but it's it's hard right it's like because we're so driven by the because we're so driven by the because we're so driven by the reinforcer the outcome it's you're just reinforcer the outcome it's you're just reinforcer the outcome it's you're just part of the process of telling the joke part of the process of telling the joke part of the process of telling the joke and if I laugh or and if I laugh or and if I laugh or not that's up to the universe to decide not that's up to the universe to decide not that's up to the universe to decide yep it's my yep it's my yep it's my Thera uh how does study memory affect Thera uh how does study memory affect Thera uh how does study memory affect your understanding of the nature of time your understanding of the nature of time your understanding of the nature of time so like we've been talking about us so like we've been talking about us so like we've been talking about us living in the the present and making living in the the present and making living in the the present and making decisions about the decisions about the decisions about the future standing on the foundation of future standing on the foundation of future standing on the foundation of these memories and narratives about the these memories and narratives about the these memories and narratives about the memories that we've constructed so it memories that we've constructed so it memories that we've constructed so it feels feels feels like it does weird things to time yeah like it does weird things to time yeah like it does weird things to time yeah and the reason is is that in some sense and the reason is is that in some sense and the reason is is that in some sense I think especially the farther we go I think especially the farther we go I think especially the farther we go back I mean there's all sorts of back I mean there's all sorts of back I mean there's all sorts of interesting things that happen so your interesting things that happen so your interesting things that happen so your sense of like if I ask you how different sense of like if I ask you how different sense of like if I ask you how different does one hour ago feel from two hours does one hour ago feel from two hours does one hour ago feel from two hours ago you'd probably say pretty different ago you'd probably say pretty different ago you'd probably say pretty different but if I ask you okay go back one year but if I ask you okay go back one year but if I ask you okay go back one year ago versus one year and 1 hour ago it's ago versus one year and 1 hour ago it's ago versus one year and 1 hour ago it's the same difference in time it won't the same difference in time it won't the same difference in time it won't feel very different right so there's

feel very different right so there's feel very different right so there's this kind of compression that happens as this kind of compression that happens as this kind of compression that happens as you look back F farther in time so that you look back F farther in time so that you look back F farther in time so that it's kind of like why when you're older it's kind of like why when you're older it's kind of like why when you're older the difference between somebody who's the difference between somebody who's the difference between somebody who's like 50 and you know 45 doesn't seem as like 50 and you know 45 doesn't seem as like 50 and you know 45 doesn't seem as big as the difference between like 10 big as the difference between like 10 big as the difference between like 10 and five or something right when you're and five or something right when you're and five or something right when you're 10 years old everything seems like it's 10 years old everything seems like it's 10 years old everything seems like it's a long period of time here's the point a long period of time here's the point a long period of time here's the point is that you know so one of the is that you know so one of the is that you know so one of the interesting things that I found when I interesting things that I found when I interesting things that I found when I was working on the book actually was was working on the book actually was was working on the book actually was during the pandemic I just decided to during the pandemic I just decided to during the pandemic I just decided to ask people in my class when we were ask people in my class when we were ask people in my class when we were doing the remote instruction so one of doing the remote instruction so one of doing the remote instruction so one of the things I did was I would pull people the things I did was I would pull people the things I did was I would pull people and so I just asked people do you feel and so I just asked people do you feel and so I just asked people do you feel like the days are moving by slower or like the days are moving by slower or like the days are moving by slower or faster or about the same almost everyone faster or about the same almost everyone faster or about the same almost everyone in the class said that the days were in the class said that the days were in the class said that the days were moving by slower um so then at the I moving by slower um so then at the I moving by slower um so then at the I would say okay so do you feel like the would say okay so do you feel like the would say okay so do you feel like the weeks are passing by slower faster or weeks are passing by slower faster or weeks are passing by slower faster or the same and the majority of them said the same and the majority of them said the same and the majority of them said that the weeks were passing by faster so that the weeks were passing by faster so that the weeks were passing by faster so according to the laws of physics I don't according to the laws of physics I don't according to the laws of physics I don't think that makes any sense right yeah think that makes any sense right yeah think that makes any sense right yeah but according to memory it did because but according to memory it did because but according to memory it did because what happened was people were doing the what happened was people were doing the what happened was people were doing the same thing over and over in the same same thing over and over in the same same thing over and over in the same context and without that change in context and without that change in context and without that change in context their feeling was that they were context their feeling was that they were context their feeling was that they were in one long monotonous event and so but in one long monotonous event and so but in one long monotonous event and so but then at the end of the week you look then at the end of the week you look then at the end of the week you look back at that week and you say well what back at that week and you say well what back at that week and you say well what happened have no memories of what happened have no memories of what happened have no memories of what happened so it must the week just went happened so it must the week just went happened so it must the week just went by without even my noticing it but that

by without even my noticing it but that by without even my noticing it but that week went by during the same amount of week went by during the same amount of week went by during the same amount of time as an eventful week where you might time as an eventful week where you might time as an eventful week where you might have been going out hanging out with have been going out hanging out with have been going out hanging out with friends on vacation or whatever right friends on vacation or whatever right friends on vacation or whatever right it's just that nothing happened because it's just that nothing happened because it's just that nothing happened because you're doing the same thing over and you're doing the same thing over and you're doing the same thing over and over so I feel like memory really shapes over so I feel like memory really shapes over so I feel like memory really shapes our sense of time but it does so in part our sense of time but it does so in part our sense of time but it does so in part because context is so important for because context is so important for because context is so important for memory well that compression you memory well that compression you memory well that compression you mentioned it's an interesting process mentioned it's an interesting process mentioned it's an interesting process because when I think about when I was because when I think about when I was because when I think about when I was like 12 or like 12 or like 12 or 15 I just fundamentally feel like the 15 I just fundamentally feel like the 15 I just fundamentally feel like the same person it's interesting what that same person it's interesting what that same person it's interesting what that compression does it makes me feel like compression does it makes me feel like compression does it makes me feel like it's all we're all connected not just it's all we're all connected not just it's all we're all connected not just amongst humans and spatially but in amongst humans and spatially but in amongst humans and spatially but in terms in back in time there's a kind terms in back in time there's a kind terms in back in time there's a kind of uh Eternal nature like the of uh Eternal nature like the of uh Eternal nature like the timelessness I guess mhm to life that timelessness I guess mhm to life that timelessness I guess mhm to life that could be also a genetic thing just for could be also a genetic thing just for could be also a genetic thing just for for me I don't know if everyone agrees for me I don't know if everyone agrees for me I don't know if everyone agrees to this view of time but to me it all to this view of time but to me it all to this view of time but to me it all feels the same like you don't feel the feels the same like you don't feel the feels the same like you don't feel the passage of time or no I feel the passage passage of time or no I feel the passage passage of time or no I feel the passage of time the same way the students did of time the same way the students did of time the same way the students did from day to day mhm there's certain from day to day mhm there's certain from day to day mhm there's certain markers uh that let you know that time markers uh that let you know that time markers uh that let you know that time has passed you celebrate birdes and so has passed you celebrate birdes and so has passed you celebrate birdes and so on but the core of who I am and who on but the core of who I am and who on but the core of who I am and who others I know are or events it like that others I know are or events it like that others I know are or events it like that compression of my understanding of the compression of my understanding of the compression of my understanding of the world okay removes time cuz time is not world okay removes time cuz time is not world okay removes time cuz time is not useful for the compression so like the useful for the compression so like the useful for the compression so like the details of that time at least for me is

details of that time at least for me is details of that time at least for me is not useful to understanding the core of not useful to understanding the core of not useful to understanding the core of the thing so maybe what it is is that the thing so maybe what it is is that the thing so maybe what it is is that you really like to see connections you really like to see connections you really like to see connections between things this is like really what between things this is like really what between things this is like really what motivates me in science actually too but motivates me in science actually too but motivates me in science actually too but it's like when you start recalling the it's like when you start recalling the it's like when you start recalling the past to you know and seeing the past to you know and seeing the past to you know and seeing the connections between the past and present connections between the past and present connections between the past and present now you have this kind of web of now you have this kind of web of now you have this kind of web of interconnected memories right and so I interconnected memories right and so I interconnected memories right and so I can imagine in that sense there is this can imagine in that sense there is this can imagine in that sense there is this kind of the present is with you right um kind of the present is with you right um kind of the present is with you right um but what's interesting about what you but what's interesting about what you but what's interesting about what you said too that struck me is that your said too that struck me is that your said too that struck me is that your 16-year-old self was probably very 16-year-old self was probably very 16-year-old self was probably very complex you know and I'm by the way I'm complex you know and I'm by the way I'm complex you know and I'm by the way I'm the same way but it's like it really is the same way but it's like it really is the same way but it's like it really is the source of a lot of Darkness for me the source of a lot of Darkness for me the source of a lot of Darkness for me so but uh but when like you can look so but uh but when like you can look so but uh but when like you can look back at like let's say you hear a song back at like let's say you hear a song back at like let's say you hear a song that you used to play like before you that you used to play like before you that you used to play like before you would go do a sports thing or something would go do a sports thing or something would go do a sports thing or something like that you might not think of like that you might not think of like that you might not think of yourself as an athlete but once you you yourself as an athlete but once you you yourself as an athlete but once you you get back to that mental you mentally get back to that mental you mentally get back to that mental you mentally time travel to that particular thing you time travel to that particular thing you time travel to that particular thing you open up this little compartment of open up this little compartment of open up this little compartment of yourself that wasn't there before right yourself that wasn't there before right yourself that wasn't there before right that didn't seem accessible for Dan that didn't seem accessible for Dan that didn't seem accessible for Dan Shaker's lab did this really cool study Shaker's lab did this really cool study Shaker's lab did this really cool study where they would ask people to either where they would ask people to either where they would ask people to either remember doing something altruistic or remember doing something altruistic or remember doing something altruistic or imagine doing something altruistic and imagine doing something altruistic and imagine doing something altruistic and that act made them more likely to want that act made them more likely to want that act made them more likely to want to do things for other people so that

to do things for other people so that to do things for other people so that act of mental time travel can change who act of mental time travel can change who act of mental time travel can change who you are in the present we tend to think you are in the present we tend to think you are in the present we tend to think of this goes back to that illusion of of this goes back to that illusion of of this goes back to that illusion of stability and we tend to think of memory stability and we tend to think of memory stability and we tend to think of memory this very deterministic way that I am this very deterministic way that I am this very deterministic way that I am who I am because I have this past but we who I am because I have this past but we who I am because I have this past but we have a very multifaceted past and can have a very multifaceted past and can have a very multifaceted past and can access different parts of it and change access different parts of it and change access different parts of it and change in the moment based on whatever part we in the moment based on whatever part we in the moment based on whatever part we want to reach for right how does want to reach for right how does want to reach for right how does nostalgia Connect into this like this nostalgia Connect into this like this nostalgia Connect into this like this desire and pleasure associated desire and pleasure associated desire and pleasure associated with going back yeah so um my friend with going back yeah so um my friend with going back yeah so um my friend Felipe Felipe Felipe deberard uh wrote this and it just like deberard uh wrote this and it just like deberard uh wrote this and it just like blew my mind where the word nostalgia blew my mind where the word nostalgia blew my mind where the word nostalgia was coined by a Swiss physician who was was coined by a Swiss physician who was was coined by a Swiss physician who was actually studying traumatized soldiers actually studying traumatized soldiers actually studying traumatized soldiers and so he described Nostalgia as a and so he described Nostalgia as a and so he described Nostalgia as a disease and the idea was it was bringing disease and the idea was it was bringing disease and the idea was it was bringing These People Extraordinary unhappiness These People Extraordinary unhappiness These People Extraordinary unhappiness because they're remembering how things because they're remembering how things because they're remembering how things used to be um and I think it's it's very used to be um and I think it's it's very used to be um and I think it's it's very complex so as people get older for complex so as people get older for complex so as people get older for instance Nostalgia can be an enormous instance Nostalgia can be an enormous instance Nostalgia can be an enormous source of Happiness right um and being source of Happiness right um and being source of Happiness right um and being nostalgic can improve people's moods in nostalgic can improve people's moods in nostalgic can improve people's moods in the moment but it just depends on what the moment but it just depends on what the moment but it just depends on what they do with it because what you can they do with it because what you can they do with it because what you can sometimes see is Nostalgia has the sometimes see is Nostalgia has the sometimes see is Nostalgia has the opposite effect of thinking those were opposite effect of thinking those were opposite effect of thinking those were the good old days and those days are the good old days and those days are the good old days and those days are over right it's like America used to be over right it's like America used to be over right it's like America used to be so great and now it sucks or you know my so great and now it sucks or you know my so great and now it sucks or you know my life used to be so great when I was a life used to be so great when I was a life used to be so great when I was a kid and now it's not right and you're

kid and now it's not right and you're kid and now it's not right and you're selectively remembering the things selectively remembering the things selectively remembering the things thatan we don't realize how selective thatan we don't realize how selective thatan we don't realize how selective our remembering self is and so you know our remembering self is and so you know our remembering self is and so you know I live through the 70s it sucked you I live through the 70s it sucked you I live through the 70s it sucked you know it's like uh partly it sucked more know it's like uh partly it sucked more know it's like uh partly it sucked more for me but I would say that even for me but I would say that even for me but I would say that even otherwise it's like there's all sorts of otherwise it's like there's all sorts of otherwise it's like there's all sorts of problems going on gas lines people were problems going on gas lines people were problems going on gas lines people were like you know worried about like Russia like you know worried about like Russia like you know worried about like Russia nuclear war blah blah blah so I mean nuclear war blah blah blah so I mean nuclear war blah blah blah so I mean it's just this idea that people have it's just this idea that people have it's just this idea that people have about the past can be very useful if it about the past can be very useful if it about the past can be very useful if it brings you happiness in the present but brings you happiness in the present but brings you happiness in the present but if it Narrows your worldview in the if it Narrows your worldview in the if it Narrows your worldview in the present you're not aware of those biases present you're not aware of those biases present you're not aware of those biases that you have you will end up you can that you have you will end up you can that you have you will end up you can end up it can be toxic right either at a end up it can be toxic right either at a end up it can be toxic right either at a personal level or at a collective level personal level or at a collective level personal level or at a collective level uh let me ask you both a practical uh let me ask you both a practical uh let me ask you both a practical question and an out there question so question and an out there question so question and an out there question so let's start with a more practical one let's start with a more practical one let's start with a more practical one what what are your thoughts about um what what are your thoughts about um what what are your thoughts about um bcis brain computer interfaces and the bcis brain computer interfaces and the bcis brain computer interfaces and the work that's going on with neur link We work that's going on with neur link We work that's going on with neur link We Lo we talked about electrod and Lo we talked about electrod and Lo we talked about electrod and different ways of measuring the brain different ways of measuring the brain different ways of measuring the brain and here neuralink is working on and here neuralink is working on and here neuralink is working on basically two-way communication with the basically two-way communication with the basically two-way communication with the brain and the more out there question brain and the more out there question brain and the more out there question would be like where does this go but would be like where does this go but would be like where does this go but more practically in the near term what more practically in the near term what more practically in the near term what do you think about NE link yeah I mean I do you think about NE link yeah I mean I do you think about NE link yeah I mean I can't say specifics about the company can't say specifics about the company can't say specifics about the company because I haven't studied it that much because I haven't studied it that much because I haven't studied it that much but I mean I think there's two parts of but I mean I think there's two parts of but I mean I think there's two parts of it so one is they're developing some it so one is they're developing some it so one is they're developing some really interesting technology I think really interesting technology I think really interesting technology I think with these like s surgical robots and with these like s surgical robots and with these like s surgical robots and things like that um BCI though has like

things like that um BCI though has like things like that um BCI though has like a whole lot of innovation going on I I'm a whole lot of innovation going on I I'm a whole lot of innovation going on I I'm not necessarily seeing any scientific not necessarily seeing any scientific not necessarily seeing any scientific evidence from neuralink and maybe that's evidence from neuralink and maybe that's evidence from neuralink and maybe that's just I'm not looking for it but I'm not just I'm not looking for it but I'm not just I'm not looking for it but I'm not seeing the evidence that they're seeing the evidence that they're seeing the evidence that they're anywhere near where the scientific anywhere near where the scientific anywhere near where the scientific Community is and there's lots of Community is and there's lots of Community is and there's lots of startups that are do incredibly startups that are do incredibly startups that are do incredibly Innovative stuff one of my colleagues Innovative stuff one of my colleagues Innovative stuff one of my colleagues Serge staisy is just like a genius in Serge staisy is just like a genius in Serge staisy is just like a genius in this area and and they're working on it this area and and they're working on it this area and and they're working on it I think speech Prosthetics like that are I think speech Prosthetics like that are I think speech Prosthetics like that are incorporating you know decoding incorporating you know decoding incorporating you know decoding techniques with AI and you know movement techniques with AI and you know movement techniques with AI and you know movement perspects this just like the the rate of perspects this just like the the rate of perspects this just like the the rate of progress is just enormous so part of the progress is just enormous so part of the progress is just enormous so part of the technology is having good enough data technology is having good enough data technology is having good enough data and understanding which data to use and and understanding which data to use and and understanding which data to use and what to do with it right um and then the what to do with it right um and then the what to do with it right um and then the other part of it then is the algorithms other part of it then is the algorithms other part of it then is the algorithms for decoding it and so forth and and I for decoding it and so forth and and I for decoding it and so forth and and I think part of that has really resulted think part of that has really resulted think part of that has really resulted in some real breakthroughs in in some real breakthroughs in in some real breakthroughs in Neuroscience as a result so um there's Neuroscience as a result so um there's Neuroscience as a result so um there's lots of new technologies like lots of new technologies like lots of new technologies like neuropixels for instance that allow you neuropixels for instance that allow you neuropixels for instance that allow you to harvest activity from many many to harvest activity from many many to harvest activity from many many neurons from a single electrode um I neurons from a single electrode um I neurons from a single electrode um I know neuralink has some know neuralink has some know neuralink has some technologies that are also along these technologies that are also along these technologies that are also along these lines but I even again because they do lines but I even again because they do lines but I even again because they do their own stuff the scientific Community their own stuff the scientific Community their own stuff the scientific Community doesn't see it right um but I think BCI doesn't see it right um but I think BCI doesn't see it right um but I think BCI is much much bigger than neuralink and is much much bigger than neuralink and is much much bigger than neuralink and there's just so much Innovation there's just so much Innovation there's just so much Innovation happening I think the interesting happening I think the interesting happening I think the interesting question which we may be getting into is question which we may be getting into is question which we may be getting into is I was talking to Sergey a while ago I was talking to Sergey a while ago I was talking to Sergey a while ago about you know so a lot of language it's about you know so a lot of language it's about you know so a lot of language it's not just what we hear and what we speak

not just what we hear and what we speak not just what we hear and what we speak but also our intentions in our internal but also our intentions in our internal but also our intentions in our internal models and you know so are you really models and you know so are you really models and you know so are you really going to be able to restore language going to be able to restore language going to be able to restore language without dealing with that part of it and without dealing with that part of it and without dealing with that part of it and he brought up a really interesting he brought up a really interesting he brought up a really interesting question which is the ethics of reading question which is the ethics of reading question which is the ethics of reading out people's intentions and out people's intentions and out people's intentions and understanding of the world as opposed to understanding of the world as opposed to understanding of the world as opposed to the more you know the the more concrete the more you know the the more concrete the more you know the the more concrete parts of hearing and producing movements parts of hearing and producing movements parts of hearing and producing movements right just so we're clear because you right just so we're clear because you right just so we're clear because you said a few interesting things when you said a few interesting things when you said a few interesting things when you say when we talk about language and bcis say when we talk about language and bcis say when we talk about language and bcis what we mean is getting signal from the what we mean is getting signal from the what we mean is getting signal from the brain and brain and brain and generating the language say you're not generating the language say you're not generating the language say you're not able to actually able to actually able to actually speak uh it's as a kind of linguistic speak uh it's as a kind of linguistic speak uh it's as a kind of linguistic prosthetic it it's able to speak for you prosthetic it it's able to speak for you prosthetic it it's able to speak for you exactly what you wanted to say and then exactly what you wanted to say and then exactly what you wanted to say and then the deeper question is well saying the deeper question is well saying the deeper question is well saying something isn't just the letters the the something isn't just the letters the the something isn't just the letters the the words you're saying it's also the words you're saying it's also the words you're saying it's also the intention behind it the the feeling intention behind it the the feeling intention behind it the the feeling behind all that kind of stuff and is it behind all that kind of stuff and is it behind all that kind of stuff and is it ethical to reveal that full shebang the ethical to reveal that full shebang the ethical to reveal that full shebang the full context of what's going on in our full context of what's going on in our full context of what's going on in our in our brain that's really that's really in our brain that's really that's really in our brain that's really that's really interesting that's really I mean our interesting that's really I mean our interesting that's really I mean our thoughts is it ethical for anyone to thoughts is it ethical for anyone to thoughts is it ethical for anyone to have access to our have access to our have access to our thoughts because right now the the thoughts because right now the the thoughts because right now the the resolution is so low that we're okay resolution is so low that we're okay resolution is so low that we're okay with it even doing studies and all this with it even doing studies and all this with it even doing studies and all this kind of stuff but if the if if kind of stuff but if the if if kind of stuff but if the if if Neuroscience has a few breakthroughs to Neuroscience has a few breakthroughs to Neuroscience has a few breakthroughs to where you can start to map out the QR where you can start to map out the QR where you can start to map out the QR codes for different dos for different

codes for different dos for different codes for different dos for different kinds of kinds of kinds of thoughts maybe uh political thoughts you thoughts maybe uh political thoughts you thoughts maybe uh political thoughts you know McCarthyism what if I'm getting a know McCarthyism what if I'm getting a know McCarthyism what if I'm getting a lot of them communist thoughts or lot of them communist thoughts or lot of them communist thoughts or however we want to categorize or label however we want to categorize or label however we want to categorize or label it that's interesting that's really it that's interesting that's really it that's interesting that's really interesting I think ultimately this interesting I think ultimately this interesting I think ultimately this always the more transparency there there always the more transparency there there always the more transparency there there is about the human mind the the better is about the human mind the the better is about the human mind the the better it is but be there could be always was it is but be there could be always was it is but be there could be always was intermediate battles with how much intermediate battles with how much intermediate battles with how much control does a centralized entity have control does a centralized entity have control does a centralized entity have like a government and so on what what is like a government and so on what what is like a government and so on what what is the regulation what are the rules what the regulation what are the rules what the regulation what are the rules what are the what's legal and illegal you are the what's legal and illegal you are the what's legal and illegal you know if you talk about the police whose know if you talk about the police whose know if you talk about the police whose job is to uh uh track down criminals and job is to uh uh track down criminals and job is to uh uh track down criminals and so on and you look at all the history so on and you look at all the history so on and you look at all the history how the police could be uh abuse its how the police could be uh abuse its how the police could be uh abuse its power to control of citizenry all that power to control of citizenry all that power to control of citizenry all that kind of stuff so people are always kind of stuff so people are always kind of stuff so people are always paranoid and rightfully so it's paranoid and rightfully so it's paranoid and rightfully so it's fascinating it's really fascinating you fascinating it's really fascinating you fascinating it's really fascinating you know we talk about freedom of know we talk about freedom of know we talk about freedom of speech you know freedom of speech you know freedom of speech you know freedom of thought which is also a very important thought which is also a very important thought which is also a very important Liberty at at the core of this country Liberty at at the core of this country Liberty at at the core of this country and probably Humanity starts to get and probably Humanity starts to get and probably Humanity starts to get awfully tricky when you start to be able awfully tricky when you start to be able awfully tricky when you start to be able to collect those thoughts but I I what I to collect those thoughts but I I what I to collect those thoughts but I I what I wanted to actually ask you is do you wanted to actually ask you is do you wanted to actually ask you is do you think for fun and for practical P think for fun and for practical P think for fun and for practical P purposes you'll be able to we would be purposes you'll be able to we would be purposes you'll be able to we would be able to modify

able to modify able to modify memories so how difficult is it to how memories so how difficult is it to how memories so how difficult is it to how far away we are from understanding the far away we are from understanding the far away we are from understanding the different parts of the brains everything different parts of the brains everything different parts of the brains everything we've been talking about in order to we've been talking about in order to we've been talking about in order to figure out how can we adjust this memory figure out how can we adjust this memory figure out how can we adjust this memory at the crude level from unpleasant to at the crude level from unpleasant to at the crude level from unpleasant to Pleasant you talked about we can Pleasant you talked about we can Pleasant you talked about we can remember the mall and the people like remember the mall and the people like remember the mall and the people like location the people can we keep the location the people can we keep the location the people can we keep the people and change the place like this people and change the place like this people and change the place like this kind of stuff how difficult is that well kind of stuff how difficult is that well kind of stuff how difficult is that well I mean in some sense we know we can do I mean in some sense we know we can do I mean in some sense we know we can do it just behaviorally right just like it just behaviorally right just like it just behaviorally right just like tell you give you know under certain tell you give you know under certain tell you give you know under certain conditions anyway it can give you the conditions anyway it can give you the conditions anyway it can give you the misinformation and then you can change misinformation and then you can change misinformation and then you can change the people and the places and so forth the people and the places and so forth the people and the places and so forth right um on the crude level there's a right um on the crude level there's a right um on the crude level there's a lot of work that's being done on a lot of work that's being done on a lot of work that's being done on a phenomenon called phenomenon called phenomenon called reconsolidation which is this uh idea reconsolidation which is this uh idea reconsolidation which is this uh idea that essentially when I recall a memory that essentially when I recall a memory that essentially when I recall a memory um what happens is is that the um what happens is is that the um what happens is is that the connections between the neurons and that connections between the neurons and that connections between the neurons and that cell assembly that give you the memory cell assembly that give you the memory cell assembly that give you the memory um are going to be like more um are going to be like more um are going to be like more modifiable and so some people have used modifiable and so some people have used modifiable and so some people have used techniques to try to like for instance techniques to try to like for instance techniques to try to like for instance with fear memories to reduce that with fear memories to reduce that with fear memories to reduce that physical visceral component of the physical visceral component of the physical visceral component of the memory when it's being activated right memory when it's being activated right memory when it's being activated right now I think I've as an outsider looking now I think I've as an outsider looking now I think I've as an outsider looking at the data I think it's like mixed at the data I think it's like mixed at the data I think it's like mixed results um and part of it is and this results um and part of it is and this results um and part of it is and this speaks to the more complex issue is that speaks to the more complex issue is that speaks to the more complex issue is that you don't you need somebody to actually you don't you need somebody to actually you don't you need somebody to actually fully recall that traumatic memory in

fully recall that traumatic memory in fully recall that traumatic memory in the first place and in order to actually the first place and in order to actually the first place and in order to actually modify it then what is the memory that modify it then what is the memory that modify it then what is the memory that is the key part of the problem so if we is the key part of the problem so if we is the key part of the problem so if we go back to reading people's thoughts go back to reading people's thoughts go back to reading people's thoughts what is the thought I mean people can what is the thought I mean people can what is the thought I mean people can sometimes look at this like behaviorists sometimes look at this like behaviorists sometimes look at this like behaviorists and go well the memory is like I've and go well the memory is like I've and go well the memory is like I've given you a and you produce B but I given you a and you produce B but I given you a and you produce B but I think that's a very bankrupt concept think that's a very bankrupt concept think that's a very bankrupt concept about memory I think it's it's much more about memory I think it's it's much more about memory I think it's it's much more complicated than that and you know one complicated than that and you know one complicated than that and you know one of the things that when we started of the things that when we started of the things that when we started studying naturalistic memory like memory studying naturalistic memory like memory studying naturalistic memory like memory from movies that was so hard was we had from movies that was so hard was we had from movies that was so hard was we had to change the way we did the studies to change the way we did the studies to change the way we did the studies because if I show you movie and I show because if I show you movie and I show because if I show you movie and I show and I watch the same movie and you and I watch the same movie and you and I watch the same movie and you recall everything that happened and I recall everything that happened and I recall everything that happened and I recall everything that happened we might recall everything that happened we might recall everything that happened we might take a different amount of time to do it take a different amount of time to do it take a different amount of time to do it we might use different words and yet to we might use different words and yet to we might use different words and yet to an outside Observer we might have an outside Observer we might have an outside Observer we might have recalled the same thing right so it's recalled the same thing right so it's recalled the same thing right so it's not about the words necessarily and it's not about the words necessarily and it's not about the words necessarily and it's not about how long we spent or whatever not about how long we spent or whatever not about how long we spent or whatever there's something deeper that is there there's something deeper that is there there's something deeper that is there that's this idea but it's like how do that's this idea but it's like how do that's this idea but it's like how do you understand that thought I encounter you understand that thought I encounter you understand that thought I encounter a lot of concrete thinking that it's a lot of concrete thinking that it's a lot of concrete thinking that it's like if I like if I like if I show a model like you know the visual show a model like you know the visual show a model like you know the visual information that a person sees when they information that a person sees when they information that a person sees when they drive I can basically reverse engineer drive I can basically reverse engineer drive I can basically reverse engineer driving well that's not really how it driving well that's not really how it driving well that's not really how it works I once saw a talk by somebody or I works I once saw a talk by somebody or I works I once saw a talk by somebody or I saw somebody talking in this discussion saw somebody talking in this discussion saw somebody talking in this discussion of between neuroscientists and AI people of between neuroscientists and AI people of between neuroscientists and AI people and he was saying that the problem with and he was saying that the problem with and he was saying that the problem with self-driving cars that they had in

self-driving cars that they had in self-driving cars that they had in cities as opposed to highways was that cities as opposed to highways was that cities as opposed to highways was that the car was okay at you know doing the the car was okay at you know doing the the car was okay at you know doing the things it's supposed to but when there things it's supposed to but when there things it's supposed to but when there were pedestrians around it couldn't were pedestrians around it couldn't were pedestrians around it couldn't predict the intentions of people and so predict the intentions of people and so predict the intentions of people and so that unpredictability of people was the that unpredictability of people was the that unpredictability of people was the problem that they were having in you problem that they were having in you problem that they were having in you know the self-driving car design because know the self-driving car design because know the self-driving car design because it didn't have a good enough internal it didn't have a good enough internal it didn't have a good enough internal model of what the people were you know model of what the people were you know model of what the people were you know what they were doing what they wanted what they were doing what they wanted what they were doing what they wanted and what do you think about that well I and what do you think about that well I and what do you think about that well I spent a huge amount of spent a huge amount of spent a huge amount of time watching pedestrians thinking about time watching pedestrians thinking about time watching pedestrians thinking about pedestrians thinking about what it takes pedestrians thinking about what it takes pedestrians thinking about what it takes to solve the problem of uh uh measuring detecting the intention uh uh measuring detecting the intention of a pedestrian really of a human being of a pedestrian really of a human being of a pedestrian really of a human being in this particular context of uh having in this particular context of uh having in this particular context of uh having to cross the street and it's fascinating to cross the street and it's fascinating to cross the street and it's fascinating I think uh I think it's a window I think uh I think it's a window I think uh I think it's a window into how complex social systems are that into how complex social systems are that into how complex social systems are that involve humans because you know I would involve humans because you know I would involve humans because you know I would just stand there and watch intersections just stand there and watch intersections just stand there and watch intersections for hours and what you start to figure for hours and what you start to figure for hours and what you start to figure out is every single intersection has its out is every single intersection has its out is every single intersection has its own personality so like there's a own personality so like there's a own personality so like there's a history to that intersection like jayw history to that intersection like jayw history to that intersection like jayw walking walking walking certain um intersections certain um intersections certain um intersections allow jaywalking a lot more because what allow jaywalking a lot more because what allow jaywalking a lot more because what happens happens happens is uh we're leaders and followers so

is uh we're leaders and followers so is uh we're leaders and followers so there's a regular let's say and they there's a regular let's say and they there's a regular let's say and they they get off the subway and they start they get off the subway and they start they get off the subway and they start Crossing on a red light and they do this Crossing on a red light and they do this Crossing on a red light and they do this every single day mhm and then there's every single day mhm and then there's every single day mhm and then there's people that don't show up to that people that don't show up to that people that don't show up to that intersection often and they're looking intersection often and they're looking intersection often and they're looking for cues of how we're supposed to behave for cues of how we're supposed to behave for cues of how we're supposed to behave here and if a few people start the here and if a few people start the here and if a few people start the jaywalk and cross on red light uh they jaywalk and cross on red light uh they jaywalk and cross on red light uh they will also they will follow and there's will also they will follow and there's will also they will follow and there's just a dynamic to that intersection just a dynamic to that intersection just a dynamic to that intersection there's a spirit to it and if you look there's a spirit to it and if you look there's a spirit to it and if you look at Boston versus New York uh versus a at Boston versus New York uh versus a at Boston versus New York uh versus a rural Town versus even Boston San rural Town versus even Boston San rural Town versus even Boston San Francisco here in Austin it's there's Francisco here in Austin it's there's Francisco here in Austin it's there's different personalities Citywide but different personalities Citywide but different personalities Citywide but there's different personalities areawide there's different personalities areawide there's different personalities areawide region wide and there's different region wide and there's different region wide and there's different personalities different intersections personalities different intersections personalities different intersections and it's it's just fascinating for for a and it's it's just fascinating for for a and it's it's just fascinating for for a car to be able to determine that is car to be able to determine that is car to be able to determine that is tricky now what machine learning systems tricky now what machine learning systems tricky now what machine learning systems are able to do well is collect a huge are able to do well is collect a huge are able to do well is collect a huge amount of data so for us It's tricky amount of data so for us It's tricky amount of data so for us It's tricky because we get to like understand the because we get to like understand the because we get to like understand the world with very limited information world with very limited information world with very limited information that's right and make decisions grounded that's right and make decisions grounded that's right and make decisions grounded in this big foundation model that we've in this big foundation model that we've in this big foundation model that we've built of understanding how humans work built of understanding how humans work built of understanding how humans work AI could literally in the context of AI could literally in the context of AI could literally in the context of driving this is where I've often been driving this is where I've often been driving this is where I've often been really torn in both directions if you really torn in both directions if you really torn in both directions if you just collect a huge amount of just collect a huge amount of just collect a huge amount of data all of that information and then data all of that information and then data all of that information and then compress it into uh a representation of compress it into uh a representation of compress it into uh a representation of how humans cross how humans cross how humans cross streets it's probably all there in the streets it's probably all there in the streets it's probably all there in the same way that you have a Nome chsky who same way that you have a Nome chsky who same way that you have a Nome chsky who says no no no no AI can't talk can't says no no no no AI can't talk can't says no no no no AI can't talk can't write L convincing language without

write L convincing language without write L convincing language without understanding language and you know more understanding language and you know more understanding language and you know more and more you see large language models and more you see large language models and more you see large language models without quote unquote understanding can without quote unquote understanding can without quote unquote understanding can generate very convincing language but I generate very convincing language but I generate very convincing language but I think what the process of compression think what the process of compression think what the process of compression from a huge amount of data compressing from a huge amount of data compressing from a huge amount of data compressing into a representation is doing is in into a representation is doing is in into a representation is doing is in fact understanding deeply in order to be fact understanding deeply in order to be fact understanding deeply in order to be able to generate one letter at a time able to generate one letter at a time able to generate one letter at a time one word at a time you have one word at a time you have one word at a time you have to to to understand the cruelty of Nazi Germany understand the cruelty of Nazi Germany understand the cruelty of Nazi Germany and the beauty of uh sending humans to and the beauty of uh sending humans to and the beauty of uh sending humans to space and like you have to understand space and like you have to understand space and like you have to understand all of that in order to generate like uh all of that in order to generate like uh all of that in order to generate like uh I'm going to the kitchen to get an apple I'm going to the kitchen to get an apple I'm going to the kitchen to get an apple and and do that grammatically correctly and and do that grammatically correctly and and do that grammatically correctly you have to have a world model that you have to have a world model that you have to have a world model that includes all of human behavior you're includes all of human behavior you're includes all of human behavior you're thinking llm is building that world thinking llm is building that world thinking llm is building that world model it has to in order to be uh good model it has to in order to be uh good model it has to in order to be uh good at generating uh one word at a time a at generating uh one word at a time a at generating uh one word at a time a convincing sentence and in the same way convincing sentence and in the same way convincing sentence and in the same way I think AI that drives a car if it has I think AI that drives a car if it has I think AI that drives a car if it has enough data will be able to form a world enough data will be able to form a world enough data will be able to form a world model that will be able to predict model that will be able to predict model that will be able to predict correctly what the pest does but when we correctly what the pest does but when we correctly what the pest does but when we as humans are watching pedestrians we as humans are watching pedestrians we as humans are watching pedestrians we slowly realize damn this is really slowly realize damn this is really slowly realize damn this is really complicated in fact when you start to complicated in fact when you start to complicated in fact when you start to self-reflect on driving you realize self-reflect on driving you realize self-reflect on driving you realize driving is really complicated there's driving is really complicated there's driving is really complicated there's like cues would take about like uh like cues would take about like uh like cues would take about like uh just there's a million things I could just there's a million things I could just there's a million things I could say but like one of them determining who say but like one of them determining who say but like one of them determining who around you is an aggressive

around you is an aggressive around you is an aggressive driver potentially dangerous yes I was driver potentially dangerous yes I was driver potentially dangerous yes I was just thinking about this yes or or like just thinking about this yes or or like just thinking about this yes or or like you can read it a mile once you get you can read it a mile once you get you can read it a mile once you get become a great driver you can see it a become a great driver you can see it a become a great driver you can see it a mile away this guy's going to pull an mile away this guy's going to pull an mile away this guy's going to pull an move in front of you exactly move in front of you exactly move in front of you exactly he's like way back there but you know he's like way back there but you know he's like way back there but you know it's going to happen and I don't know it's going to happen and I don't know it's going to happen and I don't know what cuz we're ignoring all the other what cuz we're ignoring all the other what cuz we're ignoring all the other cars but for some reason the ask like a cars but for some reason the ask like a cars but for some reason the ask like a red like like a glowing uh obvious red like like a glowing uh obvious red like like a glowing uh obvious symbol is just like right there even in symbol is just like right there even in symbol is just like right there even in the periphery Vision cuz we're again we the periphery Vision cuz we're again we the periphery Vision cuz we're again we usually when we're driving just looking usually when we're driving just looking usually when we're driving just looking forward but we're like uh using the forward but we're like uh using the forward but we're like uh using the periphery Vision to figure stuff out and periphery Vision to figure stuff out and periphery Vision to figure stuff out and it's like a little puzzle that we're it's like a little puzzle that we're it's like a little puzzle that we're usually only allocating a small amount usually only allocating a small amount usually only allocating a small amount of our attention to at least like of our attention to at least like of our attention to at least like cognitive attention to I mean it's cognitive attention to I mean it's cognitive attention to I mean it's fascinating but I think AI just has a fascinating but I think AI just has a fascinating but I think AI just has a fundamentally different Suite of sensors fundamentally different Suite of sensors fundamentally different Suite of sensors in terms of the bandwidth of data that's in terms of the bandwidth of data that's in terms of the bandwidth of data that's coming coming coming in that allows you to form the in that allows you to form the in that allows you to form the representation that perform inference on representation that perform inference on representation that perform inference on the representation you using the the representation you using the the representation you using the representation you form that for the representation you form that for the representation you form that for the case of driving I think it could be case of driving I think it could be case of driving I think it could be quite uh effective but one of the things quite uh effective but one of the things quite uh effective but one of the things that's currently that's currently that's currently missing even though opening I just missing even though opening I just missing even though opening I just recently announced adding memory mhm and recently announced adding memory mhm and recently announced adding memory mhm and I I did want to ask you like how I I did want to ask you like how I I did want to ask you like how important it is how difficult is it to important it is how difficult is it to important it is how difficult is it to add some of the memory mechanism that add some of the memory mechanism that add some of the memory mechanism that you've seen in humans to AI you've seen in humans to AI you've seen in humans to AI systems I would say superficially not systems I would say superficially not systems I would say superficially not that hard but then in a deeper level that hard but then in a deeper level that hard but then in a deeper level very very hard because we don't

very very hard because we don't very very hard because we don't understand episodic memory right so uh understand episodic memory right so uh understand episodic memory right so uh one of the ideas I talk about in the one of the ideas I talk about in the one of the ideas I talk about in the book is one of the oldest kind of uh book is one of the oldest kind of uh book is one of the oldest kind of uh dilemas in computational Neuroscience is dilemas in computational Neuroscience is dilemas in computational Neuroscience is what Steve grossberg called the what Steve grossberg called the what Steve grossberg called the stability plasticity dilemma right when stability plasticity dilemma right when stability plasticity dilemma right when do you say something is new and do you say something is new and do you say something is new and overwrite your pre-existing knowledge overwrite your pre-existing knowledge overwrite your pre-existing knowledge versus go going with what you had before versus go going with what you had before versus go going with what you had before and making incremental changes and so and making incremental changes and so and making incremental changes and so you know part of the problem with going you know part of the problem with going you know part of the problem with going through like massive you know I mean through like massive you know I mean through like massive you know I mean part of the problem of things like if part of the problem of things like if part of the problem of things like if you're trying to design an llm or you're trying to design an llm or you're trying to design an llm or something like that is especially for something like that is especially for something like that is especially for English there's so many exceptions to English there's so many exceptions to English there's so many exceptions to the rules right and so if you want to the rules right and so if you want to the rules right and so if you want to rapidly learn the exceptions you're rapidly learn the exceptions you're rapidly learn the exceptions you're going to lose the rules uh and if you going to lose the rules uh and if you going to lose the rules uh and if you want to keep the rules you have a harder want to keep the rules you have a harder want to keep the rules you have a harder time learning the exception and so David time learning the exception and so David time learning the exception and so David Mar was one of the early Pioneers in uh Mar was one of the early Pioneers in uh Mar was one of the early Pioneers in uh computational neuroscience and then uh computational neuroscience and then uh computational neuroscience and then uh Jay mcland and my colleague Randy Jay mcland and my colleague Randy Jay mcland and my colleague Randy O'Reilly some other people like uh Neil O'Reilly some other people like uh Neil O'Reilly some other people like uh Neil Cohen all these people started to come Cohen all these people started to come Cohen all these people started to come up with the idea that maybe that's part up with the idea that maybe that's part up with the idea that maybe that's part of what we need in what the human brain of what we need in what the human brain of what we need in what the human brain is doing is we have this kind of a is doing is we have this kind of a is doing is we have this kind of a actually a fairly dumb system which just actually a fairly dumb system which just actually a fairly dumb system which just says this happened once at this point in says this happened once at this point in says this happened once at this point in time which we call episodic memory so to time which we call episodic memory so to time which we call episodic memory so to speak and then we have this knowledge speak and then we have this knowledge speak and then we have this knowledge that we've accumul ated from our that we've accumul ated from our that we've accumul ated from our experiences as semantic memory so now experiences as semantic memory so now experiences as semantic memory so now when we want to we encounter a situation when we want to we encounter a situation when we want to we encounter a situation that's surprising and violates all our that's surprising and violates all our that's surprising and violates all our previous expectations what happens is is

previous expectations what happens is is previous expectations what happens is is that now we can form an episodic memory that now we can form an episodic memory that now we can form an episodic memory here and the next time we're in a here and the next time we're in a here and the next time we're in a similar situation boom we can supplement similar situation boom we can supplement similar situation boom we can supplement our knowledge with this information from our knowledge with this information from our knowledge with this information from episodic memory and reason about what episodic memory and reason about what episodic memory and reason about what the right thing to do is right so it the right thing to do is right so it the right thing to do is right so it gives us this enormous amount of gives us this enormous amount of gives us this enormous amount of flexibility to stop on a dime and change flexibility to stop on a dime and change flexibility to stop on a dime and change without having to erase everything we've without having to erase everything we've without having to erase everything we've already learned and that solution is already learned and that solution is already learned and that solution is incredibly powerful because it it gives incredibly powerful because it it gives incredibly powerful because it it gives you the ability to learn from so much you the ability to learn from so much you the ability to learn from so much less information really right and and it less information really right and and it less information really right and and it gives you that gives you that gives you that flexibility so one of the things I think flexibility so one of the things I think flexibility so one of the things I think that makes humans great is having both that makes humans great is having both that makes humans great is having both episodic and semantic memory now can you episodic and semantic memory now can you episodic and semantic memory now can you build something like that I mean you build something like that I mean you build something like that I mean you know computational Neuroscience people know computational Neuroscience people know computational Neuroscience people say well yeah you just record a moment say well yeah you just record a moment say well yeah you just record a moment and you just get it and you're done and you just get it and you're done and you just get it and you're done right but when do you record that moment right but when do you record that moment right but when do you record that moment how much do you record what's the how much do you record what's the how much do you record what's the information you prioritize and what's information you prioritize and what's information you prioritize and what's the information you don't these are the the information you don't these are the the information you don't these are the hard questions when do you use episodic hard questions when do you use episodic hard questions when do you use episodic memory when do you just throw it away memory when do you just throw it away memory when do you just throw it away and these are the hard questions we're and these are the hard questions we're and these are the hard questions we're still trying to figure out in people um still trying to figure out in people um still trying to figure out in people um and then you start to think about all and then you start to think about all and then you start to think about all these mechanisms that we have in the these mechanisms that we have in the these mechanisms that we have in the brain for figuring out some of these brain for figuring out some of these brain for figuring out some of these things it's not just one but it's many things it's not just one but it's many things it's not just one but it's many of them that are interacting with each of them that are interacting with each of them that are interacting with each other and and then you just take not other and and then you just take not other and and then you just take not only the episodic and the semantic but only the episodic and the semantic but only the episodic and the semantic but then you start to take the motivational then you start to take the motivational then you start to take the motivational survival things right it's just like the survival things right it's just like the survival things right it's just like the fight ORF flight responses that we fight ORF flight responses that we fight ORF flight responses that we associate with particular things or the associate with particular things or the associate with particular things or the kind of like uh reward motivation that

kind of like uh reward motivation that kind of like uh reward motivation that we associate with certain things so we associate with certain things so we associate with certain things so forth and those things are absent from forth and those things are absent from forth and those things are absent from AI I frankly don't know if we want it I AI I frankly don't know if we want it I AI I frankly don't know if we want it I don't necessarily want a selfmotivated don't necessarily want a selfmotivated don't necessarily want a selfmotivated llm right it's like uh and and then llm right it's like uh and and then llm right it's like uh and and then there's the the problem of how do you there's the the problem of how do you there's the the problem of how do you even like build the motivations that even like build the motivations that even like build the motivations that should guide a proper reinforcement should guide a proper reinforcement should guide a proper reinforcement learning kind of thing for instance so learning kind of thing for instance so learning kind of thing for instance so uh a friend of mine Sam gersman I might uh a friend of mine Sam gersman I might uh a friend of mine Sam gersman I might be missing the quote exactly but he be missing the quote exactly but he be missing the quote exactly but he basically said you know if I wanted to basically said you know if I wanted to basically said you know if I wanted to train like a typical AI model to make me train like a typical AI model to make me train like a typical AI model to make me as much money as possible first thing I as much money as possible first thing I as much money as possible first thing I might do is sell my might do is sell my might do is sell my house so it's not even just about having house so it's not even just about having house so it's not even just about having one goal or one objective but just one goal or one objective but just one goal or one objective but just having all these competing goals and having all these competing goals and having all these competing goals and objectives objectives objectives right and then things start to get right and then things start to get right and then things start to get really complicated well it's all really complicated well it's all really complicated well it's all interconnected I mean just even the interconnected I mean just even the interconnected I mean just even the thing you've mentioned is the moment you thing you've mentioned is the moment you thing you've mentioned is the moment you know if we record a moment like it's know if we record a moment like it's know if we record a moment like it's difficult to express concretely what a difficult to express concretely what a difficult to express concretely what a moment is like how deeply connected it moment is like how deeply connected it moment is like how deeply connected it is to is to is to the the entirety of it maybe to record a the the entirety of it maybe to record a the the entirety of it maybe to record a moment you have to make a universe from moment you have to make a universe from moment you have to make a universe from scratch you have to have you have to scratch you have to have you have to scratch you have to have you have to include everything you have to include include everything you have to include include everything you have to include all the emotions involved all the all the emotions involved all the all the emotions involved all the context all the things that built around context all the things that built around context all the things that built around all the social connections all the um all the social connections all the um all the social connections all the um visual experiences all the sensory visual experiences all the sensory visual experiences all the sensory experience all of that all the history experience all of that all the history experience all of that all the history that came before that moment is built on that came before that moment is built on that came before that moment is built on and we somehow take all that and we

and we somehow take all that and we and we somehow take all that and we compress it and keep the useful parts compress it and keep the useful parts compress it and keep the useful parts and then integrated into the whole thing and then integrated into the whole thing and then integrated into the whole thing into our whole narrative and then each into our whole narrative and then each into our whole narrative and then each individual has their own little version individual has their own little version individual has their own little version of that narrative and then we Collide in of that narrative and then we Collide in of that narrative and then we Collide in the social way and we adjust it and we the social way and we adjust it and we the social way and we adjust it and we evolve yeah yeah I mean well even if we evolve yeah yeah I mean well even if we evolve yeah yeah I mean well even if we want to go super simple right like um want to go super simple right like um want to go super simple right like um Tyler Bonin who's a postto who's Tyler Bonin who's a postto who's Tyler Bonin who's a postto who's collaborating with me he actually collaborating with me he actually collaborating with me he actually studied uh a lot of computer vision at studied uh a lot of computer vision at studied uh a lot of computer vision at Stanford and so one of the things he was Stanford and so one of the things he was Stanford and so one of the things he was interested in is some people who have interested in is some people who have interested in is some people who have brain damage in areas of the brain that brain damage in areas of the brain that brain damage in areas of the brain that were thought to be important for memory were thought to be important for memory were thought to be important for memory and uh but they also seem to have some and uh but they also seem to have some and uh but they also seem to have some perception problems with particular perception problems with particular perception problems with particular kinds of object perception and this is kinds of object perception and this is kinds of object perception and this is super controversial some people found super controversial some people found super controversial some people found this effect some didn't and he went back this effect some didn't and he went back this effect some didn't and he went back to computer vision and he said let's to computer vision and he said let's to computer vision and he said let's take the best state-of-the-art computer take the best state-of-the-art computer take the best state-of-the-art computer vision models and let's give them the vision models and let's give them the vision models and let's give them the same kinds of perception tests that we same kinds of perception tests that we same kinds of perception tests that we were giving to these people and then he were giving to these people and then he were giving to these people and then he would find the images where the computer would find the images where the computer would find the images where the computer vision models would just struggle and vision models would just struggle and vision models would just struggle and you would find that they just didn't do you would find that they just didn't do you would find that they just didn't do well even if you add more parameters you well even if you add more parameters you well even if you add more parameters you add more layers on and on and on it add more layers on and on and on it add more layers on and on and on it doesn't help right the architecture doesn't help right the architecture doesn't help right the architecture didn't matter it was just there the didn't matter it was just there the didn't matter it was just there the problem and then he found those were the problem and then he found those were the problem and then he found those were the exact ones where these humans with exact ones where these humans with exact ones where these humans with particular damage to this area called particular damage to this area called particular damage to this area called the perinal cortex that was where they the perinal cortex that was where they the perinal cortex that was where they were struggling so somehow this brain were struggling so somehow this brain were struggling so somehow this brain area was being was important for being area was being was important for being area was being was important for being able to do these things that were able to do these things that were able to do these things that were adversarial to these computer vision adversarial to these computer vision adversarial to these computer vision models so then he found that the that it

models so then he found that the that it models so then he found that the that it only happened if people had enough time only happened if people had enough time only happened if people had enough time they could make those discriminations they could make those discriminations they could make those discriminations but without enough time if they just get but without enough time if they just get but without enough time if they just get a glance they're just like the computer a glance they're just like the computer a glance they're just like the computer vision models so then what he started to vision models so then what he started to vision models so then what he started to say was maybe let's look at people's say was maybe let's look at people's say was maybe let's look at people's eyes right so computer vision model sees eyes right so computer vision model sees eyes right so computer vision model sees every pixel all at once right it's not every pixel all at once right it's not every pixel all at once right it's not you know and we don't we never see every you know and we don't we never see every you know and we don't we never see every pixel all at once even if I'm looking at pixel all at once even if I'm looking at pixel all at once even if I'm looking at a screen with pixels I'm not seeing a screen with pixels I'm not seeing a screen with pixels I'm not seeing every pixel all at once I'm grabbing every pixel all at once I'm grabbing every pixel all at once I'm grabbing little points on the screen by moving my little points on the screen by moving my little points on the screen by moving my eyes around and getting a very high eyes around and getting a very high eyes around and getting a very high resolution picture of what I'm focusing resolution picture of what I'm focusing resolution picture of what I'm focusing on and kind of a lower resolution on and kind of a lower resolution on and kind of a lower resolution information about everything else but information about everything else but information about everything else but I'm ch not necessarily choosing but I'm I'm ch not necessarily choosing but I'm I'm ch not necessarily choosing but I'm directing that directing that directing that exploration and allowing people to move exploration and allowing people to move exploration and allowing people to move their eyes and integrate that their eyes and integrate that their eyes and integrate that information gave them something that the information gave them something that the information gave them something that the computer vision models weren't able to computer vision models weren't able to computer vision models weren't able to do so somehow integrating information do so somehow integrating information do so somehow integrating information across time and getting less information across time and getting less information across time and getting less information at each step gave you more out of the at each step gave you more out of the at each step gave you more out of the process I process I process I mean the process of allocating attention mean the process of allocating attention mean the process of allocating attention across time seems to be a really across time seems to be a really across time seems to be a really important process even the breakthroughs important process even the breakthroughs important process even the breakthroughs that you get with uh with machine that you get with uh with machine that you get with uh with machine learning mostly has to do attention is learning mostly has to do attention is learning mostly has to do attention is all you need is about attention all you need is about attention all you need is about attention transform is about attention so transform is about attention so transform is about attention so attention is a really interesting one attention is a really interesting one attention is a really interesting one well then like yeah but how you allocate

well then like yeah but how you allocate well then like yeah but how you allocate that attention again is like is at the that attention again is like is at the that attention again is like is at the core core core of like what it means to be intelligent of like what it means to be intelligent of like what it means to be intelligent what it means to process the world what it means to process the world what it means to process the world integrate all the important things integrate all the important things integrate all the important things discard all the unimportant discard all the unimportant discard all the unimportant things attention is at the core of it is things attention is at the core of it is things attention is at the core of it is probably at the core of memory too probably at the core of memory too probably at the core of memory too because there's so much sensory because there's so much sensory because there's so much sensory information there's so much going on information there's so much going on information there's so much going on there's so much going on to filter it there's so much going on to filter it there's so much going on to filter it down to almost nothing and just keep down to almost nothing and just keep down to almost nothing and just keep those parts and to to keep those parts those parts and to to keep those parts those parts and to to keep those parts and then whenever there's an error to and then whenever there's an error to and then whenever there's an error to adjust the model such that you can uh adjust the model such that you can uh adjust the model such that you can uh allocate attention even better to new allocate attention even better to new allocate attention even better to new things that would result maybe maximize things that would result maybe maximize things that would result maybe maximize the chance of confirming the model or the chance of confirming the model or the chance of confirming the model or disconfirming the model that you have disconfirming the model that you have disconfirming the model that you have and adjusting it since and adjusting it since and adjusting it since then yeah attention is a weird one I was then yeah attention is a weird one I was then yeah attention is a weird one I was I was always fascinated I mean I got a I was always fascinated I mean I got a I was always fascinated I mean I got a chance to chance to chance to study peripheral vision for a bit and study peripheral vision for a bit and study peripheral vision for a bit and indirectly study attention through that indirectly study attention through that indirectly study attention through that it's just fascinating how humans how it's just fascinating how humans how it's just fascinating how humans how good humans are looking around and good humans are looking around and good humans are looking around and gathering gathering gathering information yeah at the same time people information yeah at the same time people information yeah at the same time people are terrible at detecting changes that are terrible at detecting changes that are terrible at detecting changes that can happen in the environment if they're can happen in the environment if they're can happen in the environment if they're not attending in the right way if their not attending in the right way if their not attending in the right way if their predictive model is too strong you know predictive model is too strong you know predictive model is too strong you know so you have these weird things where so you have these weird things where so you have these weird things where like the machines can do better than the like the machines can do better than the like the machines can do better than the people it's not that it's like you know people it's not that it's like you know people it's not that it's like you know so this is the thing is people go oh the so this is the thing is people go oh the so this is the thing is people go oh the machines can do this stuff that's just machines can do this stuff that's just machines can do this stuff that's just like humans it's like well the machines

like humans it's like well the machines like humans it's like well the machines make different kinds of mistakes than make different kinds of mistakes than make different kinds of mistakes than the people do and I will never be the people do and I will never be the people do and I will never be convinced unless I that you know we've convinced unless I that you know we've convinced unless I that you know we've replicated human I don't even like the replicated human I don't even like the replicated human I don't even like the term intelligence because I think it's a term intelligence because I think it's a term intelligence because I think it's a stupid concept but but it's like I don't stupid concept but but it's like I don't stupid concept but but it's like I don't think we've replicated human think we've replicated human think we've replicated human intelligence unless I know that uh the intelligence unless I know that uh the intelligence unless I know that uh the simulator is making exactly the same simulator is making exactly the same simulator is making exactly the same kinds of mistakes that people do because kinds of mistakes that people do because kinds of mistakes that people do because people make characteristic mistakes they people make characteristic mistakes they people make characteristic mistakes they have characteristic biases they have have characteristic biases they have have characteristic biases they have characteristic like you know heris that characteristic like you know heris that characteristic like you know heris that we use and those I'm have yet to see we use and those I'm have yet to see we use and those I'm have yet to see evidence that chat GPT will do that evidence that chat GPT will do that evidence that chat GPT will do that since we're talking about since we're talking about since we're talking about attention is there an interesting attention is there an interesting attention is there an interesting connection to you between ADHD and and connection to you between ADHD and and connection to you between ADHD and and memory well it's interesting for me memory well it's interesting for me memory well it's interesting for me because uh when I was a child I was because uh when I was a child I was because uh when I was a child I was actually told my school I don't know if actually told my school I don't know if actually told my school I don't know if it came from a school psychologist they it came from a school psychologist they it came from a school psychologist they did do some testing on me I know for did do some testing on me I know for did do some testing on me I know for like IQ and stuff like that uh they or like IQ and stuff like that uh they or like IQ and stuff like that uh they or if it just came from teachers who hated if it just came from teachers who hated if it just came from teachers who hated me but they told my parents that I had me but they told my parents that I had me but they told my parents that I had ADHD and so this was of course in the' ADHD and so this was of course in the' ADHD and so this was of course in the' 70s so basically they said like you know 70s so basically they said like you know 70s so basically they said like you know he has poor motor control and he's got he has poor motor control and he's got he has poor motor control and he's got ADHD and so and you know there was ADHD and so and you know there was ADHD and so and you know there was social issues so like I could have been social issues so like I could have been social issues so like I could have been put a year ahead in school but then they put a year ahead in school but then they put a year ahead in school but then they said oh but he doesn't have the social said oh but he doesn't have the social said oh but he doesn't have the social in he doesn't have the social in he doesn't have the social in he doesn't have the social capabilities right so I still ended up capabilities right so I still ended up capabilities right so I still ended up being like you know an outcast even in being like you know an outcast even in being like you know an outcast even in my own grade but um but then like uh I

my own grade but um but then like uh I my own grade but um but then like uh I so then my parents said okay well they so then my parents said okay well they so then my parents said okay well they got me on a diet free of Art AR official got me on a diet free of Art AR official got me on a diet free of Art AR official colors and flavors because that was the colors and flavors because that was the colors and flavors because that was the thing that people talked about back then thing that people talked about back then thing that people talked about back then so so I am interested in this topic so so I am interested in this topic so so I am interested in this topic because I've come to appreciate now that because I've come to appreciate now that because I've come to appreciate now that I have many of the characteristics if I have many of the characteristics if I have many of the characteristics if not you know full-blown it's like I'm not you know full-blown it's like I'm not you know full-blown it's like I'm definitely definitely definitely Timeless uh rejection s you name it they Timeless uh rejection s you name it they Timeless uh rejection s you name it they talk about it it's like impulsive talk about it it's like impulsive talk about it it's like impulsive behavior I could tell you about all behavior I could tell you about all behavior I could tell you about all sorts of fights I've gotten into in the sorts of fights I've gotten into in the sorts of fights I've gotten into in the past just you name it um uh but yeah so past just you name it um uh but yeah so past just you name it um uh but yeah so ADHD is fascinating though because right ADHD is fascinating though because right ADHD is fascinating though because right now we're seeing like more and more now we're seeing like more and more now we're seeing like more and more diagnosis of it and I don't know what to diagnosis of it and I don't know what to diagnosis of it and I don't know what to say about that I don't know how much of say about that I don't know how much of say about that I don't know how much of that is um based on kind of that is um based on kind of that is um based on kind of inappropriate expectations especially inappropriate expectations especially inappropriate expectations especially for children and how much of that is for children and how much of that is for children and how much of that is based on true kind of like maladaptive based on true kind of like maladaptive based on true kind of like maladaptive kinds of uh Tendencies but what we do kinds of uh Tendencies but what we do kinds of uh Tendencies but what we do know is this is that ADHD is associated know is this is that ADHD is associated know is this is that ADHD is associated with differences in prefrontal function with differences in prefrontal function with differences in prefrontal function so that attention can be both more so that attention can be both more so that attention can be both more you're more distractable you have harder you're more distractable you have harder you're more distractable you have harder time focusing your attention on what's time focusing your attention on what's time focusing your attention on what's relevant and so you shift too easily but relevant and so you shift too easily but relevant and so you shift too easily but then once you get on something that then once you get on something that then once you get on something that you're interested in you can get stuck you're interested in you can get stuck you're interested in you can get stuck and so you know the attention is this and so you know the attention is this and so you know the attention is this beautiful balance of being able to focus beautiful balance of being able to focus beautiful balance of being able to focus when you need to focus and shift when when you need to focus and shift when when you need to focus and shift when you need to shift and so it's that you need to shift and so it's that you need to shift and so it's that flexibility plus stability again um and

flexibility plus stability again um and flexibility plus stability again um and that balance seems to be disrupted in that balance seems to be disrupted in that balance seems to be disrupted in ADHD and so as a result memory tends to ADHD and so as a result memory tends to ADHD and so as a result memory tends to be poor in ADHD but it's not necessarily be poor in ADHD but it's not necessarily be poor in ADHD but it's not necessarily because there's a traditional memory because there's a traditional memory because there's a traditional memory problem but it's more because of this problem but it's more because of this problem but it's more because of this attentional issue right and so um and attentional issue right and so um and attentional issue right and so um and people with ADHD often will have great people with ADHD often will have great people with ADHD often will have great memory for the things that they're memory for the things that they're memory for the things that they're interested in and just no memory for the interested in and just no memory for the interested in and just no memory for the things that they're not interested in is things that they're not interested in is things that they're not interested in is there advice from your own life on how there advice from your own life on how there advice from your own life on how to learn and succeed from that from just to learn and succeed from that from just to learn and succeed from that from just how the characteristics of your own how the characteristics of your own how the characteristics of your own brain with ADHD and so on uh how do you brain with ADHD and so on uh how do you brain with ADHD and so on uh how do you learn H how do you learn H how do you learn H how do you uh remember information how do you uh remember information how do you uh remember information how do you flourish in this sort of Education flourish in this sort of Education flourish in this sort of Education context I'm still trying to figure out context I'm still trying to figure out context I'm still trying to figure out the flourishing per se but education I the flourishing per se but education I the flourishing per se but education I mean being in science is enormously mean being in science is enormously mean being in science is enormously enabling of ADHD it's like you're enabling of ADHD it's like you're enabling of ADHD it's like you're constantly looking for new things you're constantly looking for new things you're constantly looking for new things you're constantly seeking that dopamine hit and constantly seeking that dopamine hit and constantly seeking that dopamine hit and and uh and that's great you know and uh and uh and that's great you know and uh and uh and that's great you know and uh you they tolerate your being late for you they tolerate your being late for you they tolerate your being late for things nothing's really nobody's going things nothing's really nobody's going things nothing's really nobody's going to die if you screw up it's nice it's to die if you screw up it's nice it's to die if you screw up it's nice it's not like being a doctor or something not like being a doctor or something not like being a doctor or something where you have to be like much more where you have to be like much more where you have to be like much more responsible and focused you could just responsible and focused you could just responsible and focused you could just freely follow your curiosity which is freely follow your curiosity which is freely follow your curiosity which is just great um but what I'd say is is just great um but what I'd say is is just great um but what I'd say is is that like I'm learning now about so many that like I'm learning now about so many that like I'm learning now about so many things like about how to structure my

things like about how to structure my things like about how to structure my activities more and basically say okay activities more and basically say okay activities more and basically say okay if I'm going to be email is like the big if I'm going to be email is like the big if I'm going to be email is like the big one that kills me right now I'm just one that kills me right now I'm just one that kills me right now I'm just constantly like shifting between email constantly like shifting between email constantly like shifting between email and my activities and what happens is is and my activities and what happens is is and my activities and what happens is is that I don't actually get the email I that I don't actually get the email I that I don't actually get the email I just look at my email and I get stressed just look at my email and I get stressed just look at my email and I get stressed because I'm like oh I have to think because I'm like oh I have to think because I'm like oh I have to think about this let me get back to it and I about this let me get back to it and I about this let me get back to it and I go back to something else and so I've go back to something else and so I've go back to something else and so I've just got fragmentary memories of just got fragmentary memories of just got fragmentary memories of everything right so what I'm trying to everything right so what I'm trying to everything right so what I'm trying to do is set aside a time like this is my do is set aside a time like this is my do is set aside a time like this is my email time this is my you know writing email time this is my you know writing email time this is my you know writing time this is my goofing off time and so time this is my goofing off time and so time this is my goofing off time and so blocking these things off you give blocking these things off you give blocking these things off you give yourself the goofing off time sometimes yourself the goofing off time sometimes yourself the goofing off time sometimes I do that I and I sometimes I have to be I do that I and I sometimes I have to be I do that I and I sometimes I have to be flexible go like okay I'm definitely not flexible go like okay I'm definitely not flexible go like okay I'm definitely not focusing I'm going to give myself the focusing I'm going to give myself the focusing I'm going to give myself the downtime and it's an investment it's not downtime and it's an investment it's not downtime and it's an investment it's not like wasting time it's an investment in like wasting time it's an investment in like wasting time it's an investment in my attention later on and I'm very much my attention later on and I'm very much my attention later on and I'm very much with kort on this he wrote deep work and with kort on this he wrote deep work and with kort on this he wrote deep work and a lot of other amazing books he uh he a lot of other amazing books he uh he a lot of other amazing books he uh he talks about task switching as a sort of talks about task switching as a sort of talks about task switching as a sort of the thing that really destroys the thing that really destroys the thing that really destroys productivity so like you know switching productivity so like you know switching productivity so like you know switching well it doesn't even matter from what to well it doesn't even matter from what to well it doesn't even matter from what to what but checking social media checking what but checking social media checking what but checking social media checking email maybe switching to a phone call email maybe switching to a phone call email maybe switching to a phone call and then doing work and then switching and then doing work and then switching and then doing work and then switching even switching between if you're reading even switching between if you're reading even switching between if you're reading a paper mhm uh switching from paper to a paper mhm uh switching from paper to a paper mhm uh switching from paper to paper to paper yeah because Cur like paper to paper yeah because Cur like paper to paper yeah because Cur like curiosity and uh whatever the dopamine curiosity and uh whatever the dopamine curiosity and uh whatever the dopamine hit from the attention switch like hit from the attention switch like hit from the attention switch like limiting that cuz otherwise your brain

limiting that cuz otherwise your brain limiting that cuz otherwise your brain is just not capable able to really like is just not capable able to really like is just not capable able to really like load it in load it in load it in really uh do that deep deliberation I really uh do that deep deliberation I really uh do that deep deliberation I think that's think that's think that's required to uh remember things and to required to uh remember things and to required to uh remember things and to really think through things yeah I mean really think through things yeah I mean really think through things yeah I mean you probably see this I imagine in AI you probably see this I imagine in AI you probably see this I imagine in AI conferences but definitely in conferences but definitely in conferences but definitely in Neuroscience conferences it's now the Neuroscience conferences it's now the Neuroscience conferences it's now the norm that people have their laptops out norm that people have their laptops out norm that people have their laptops out during talks and you know conceivably during talks and you know conceivably during talks and you know conceivably they're writing you know they're writing they're writing you know they're writing they're writing you know they're writing notes but in fact what often happens if notes but in fact what often happens if notes but in fact what often happens if you look at people and you can speak you look at people and you can speak you look at people and you can speak from a little bit of personal experience from a little bit of personal experience from a little bit of personal experience is you're checking email and you're like is you're checking email and you're like is you're checking email and you're like uh uh or I'm working on my own talk but uh uh or I'm working on my own talk but uh uh or I'm working on my own talk but often it's like you're doing things that often it's like you're doing things that often it's like you're doing things that are not paying and I have this illusion are not paying and I have this illusion are not paying and I have this illusion well I'm paying attention and then I'm well I'm paying attention and then I'm well I'm paying attention and then I'm going back and and then what happens is going back and and then what happens is going back and and then what happens is I don't remember anything from that day I don't remember anything from that day I don't remember anything from that day it just kind of vanished because what it just kind of vanished because what it just kind of vanished because what happens is I'm creating all these happens is I'm creating all these happens is I'm creating all these artificial event boundaries I'm losing artificial event boundaries I'm losing artificial event boundaries I'm losing all this executive function every time I all this executive function every time I all this executive function every time I switch I'm getting like a few seconds switch I'm getting like a few seconds switch I'm getting like a few seconds slower and I'm catching up mentally to slower and I'm catching up mentally to slower and I'm catching up mentally to what's happening and so instead of being what's happening and so instead of being what's happening and so instead of being in a model where you're meaningfully in a model where you're meaningfully in a model where you're meaningfully integrating everything and predicting integrating everything and predicting integrating everything and predicting and generating this kind of like Rich and generating this kind of like Rich and generating this kind of like Rich model I'm just catching up you know and model I'm just catching up you know and model I'm just catching up you know and so yeah there's great research by Molina so yeah there's great research by Molina so yeah there's great research by Molina uner and and Anthony Wagner on uner and and Anthony Wagner on uner and and Anthony Wagner on multitasking that people can look up multitasking that people can look up multitasking that people can look up that talks about just how bad it is for that talks about just how bad it is for that talks about just how bad it is for memory and and you know it's it's memory and and you know it's it's memory and and you know it's it's becoming worse and worse of a problem so becoming worse and worse of a problem so becoming worse and worse of a problem so uh you're a musician take take me

uh you're a musician take take me uh you're a musician take take me through uh how'd you get into music like through uh how'd you get into music like through uh how'd you get into music like what what made you first fall in love what what made you first fall in love what what made you first fall in love with music with uh creating music I yeah with music with uh creating music I yeah with music with uh creating music I yeah so I started playing music just when I so I started playing music just when I so I started playing music just when I was like doing trumpet in school um for was like doing trumpet in school um for was like doing trumpet in school um for a school band and I would just read a school band and I would just read a school band and I would just read music and play and you know it was music and play and you know it was music and play and you know it was pretty decent at it not great but it was pretty decent at it not great but it was pretty decent at it not great but it was decent how'd you go from trumpet to uh decent how'd you go from trumpet to uh decent how'd you go from trumpet to uh guitar to guitar especially the kind of guitar to guitar especially the kind of guitar to guitar especially the kind of music you're into Yeah so basically in music you're into Yeah so basically in music you're into Yeah so basically in high school yeah so I kind of was a late high school yeah so I kind of was a late high school yeah so I kind of was a late bloomer to music but just kind of MTV bloomer to music but just kind of MTV bloomer to music but just kind of MTV grew up with me I grew up with MTV and grew up with me I grew up with MTV and grew up with me I grew up with MTV and so then you started seeing all this so then you started seeing all this so then you started seeing all this stuff and then uh I got into metal was stuff and then uh I got into metal was stuff and then uh I got into metal was kind of like my early genre and I always kind of like my early genre and I always kind of like my early genre and I always reacted to just things that were loud reacted to just things that were loud reacted to just things that were loud and had a beat like uh I me ADHD right and had a beat like uh I me ADHD right and had a beat like uh I me ADHD right like uh uh like you know everything from like uh uh like you know everything from like uh uh like you know everything from Sergeant Peppers by The Beatles to like Sergeant Peppers by The Beatles to like Sergeant Peppers by The Beatles to like uh um Led Zeppelin 2 my dad had both my uh um Led Zeppelin 2 my dad had both my uh um Led Zeppelin 2 my dad had both my parents had both those albums so listen parents had both those albums so listen parents had both those albums so listen to them a lot and then like uh the to them a lot and then like uh the to them a lot and then like uh the police ghost in the machine and but then police ghost in the machine and but then police ghost in the machine and but then I got into metal de leopard and you know I got into metal de leopard and you know I got into metal de leopard and you know ACDC Metallica um went way down the ACDC Metallica um went way down the ACDC Metallica um went way down the rabbit hole of speed metal MH uh and rabbit hole of speed metal MH uh and rabbit hole of speed metal MH uh and that time was kind of like oh I why that time was kind of like oh I why that time was kind of like oh I why don't I play guitar I can do this and I don't I play guitar I can do this and I don't I play guitar I can do this and I had friends who were doing that and I had friends who were doing that and I had friends who were doing that and I just never got it like I was I took just never got it like I was I took just never got it like I was I took lessons and stuff like that but it was lessons and stuff like that but it was lessons and stuff like that but it was different because in when I was doing different because in when I was doing different because in when I was doing trumpet I was reading sheet music and

trumpet I was reading sheet music and trumpet I was reading sheet music and this was like I was learning by looking this was like I was learning by looking this was like I was learning by looking there's a thing called tablature you there's a thing called tablature you there's a thing called tablature you know this where it's like you see like a know this where it's like you see like a know this where it's like you see like a drawing of the fretboard with numbers drawing of the fretboard with numbers drawing of the fretboard with numbers and that's where you're supposed to put and that's where you're supposed to put and that's where you're supposed to put your it's kind of like paint by numbers your it's kind of like paint by numbers your it's kind of like paint by numbers right and so um I learned it in a right and so um I learned it in a right and so um I learned it in a completely different way but I was still completely different way but I was still completely different way but I was still terrible at it and I didn't get it it terrible at it and I didn't get it it terrible at it and I didn't get it it it's actually taken me a long time to it's actually taken me a long time to it's actually taken me a long time to understand exactly what the issue was understand exactly what the issue was understand exactly what the issue was but it wasn't until I really got into but it wasn't until I really got into but it wasn't until I really got into Punk and I saw bands like I saw Sonic Punk and I saw bands like I saw Sonic Punk and I saw bands like I saw Sonic youth I remember especially and it just youth I remember especially and it just youth I remember especially and it just blew my mind because they violated the blew my mind because they violated the blew my mind because they violated the rules of what I thought music was rules of what I thought music was rules of what I thought music was supposed to be I was like this doesn't supposed to be I was like this doesn't supposed to be I was like this doesn't sound right these are not power chords sound right these are not power chords sound right these are not power chords and this isn't just have like a shouty and this isn't just have like a shouty and this isn't just have like a shouty verse and then a chorus part it's not verse and then a chorus part it's not verse and then a chorus part it's not going this is just like weird and then going this is just like weird and then going this is just like weird and then it occurred to me you don't have to it occurred to me you don't have to it occurred to me you don't have to write music the way it's people tell you write music the way it's people tell you write music the way it's people tell you it's supposed to sound that just opened it's supposed to sound that just opened it's supposed to sound that just opened up everything for me and I was playing up everything for me and I was playing up everything for me and I was playing it a band and I was struggling with it a band and I was struggling with it a band and I was struggling with writing music because I would try to writing music because I would try to writing music because I would try to write like you know whatever was popular write like you know whatever was popular write like you know whatever was popular at the time and or whatever sounded like at the time and or whatever sounded like at the time and or whatever sounded like other bands that I was listening to and other bands that I was listening to and other bands that I was listening to and somehow I kind of morphed into just like somehow I kind of morphed into just like somehow I kind of morphed into just like just grabbing a guitar and just doing just grabbing a guitar and just doing just grabbing a guitar and just doing stuff and I realized part of my problem stuff and I realized part of my problem stuff and I realized part of my problem with doing music before was I didn't with doing music before was I didn't with doing music before was I didn't enjoy trying to play stuff that other enjoy trying to play stuff that other enjoy trying to play stuff that other people played I just enjoyed music just people played I just enjoyed music just people played I just enjoyed music just dripping out of me and and just you know dripping out of me and and just you know dripping out of me and and just you know spilling out just doing stuff and so

spilling out just doing stuff and so spilling out just doing stuff and so then I started to say what if I don't then I started to say what if I don't then I started to say what if I don't play a chord what if I just play like play a chord what if I just play like play a chord what if I just play like notes that shouldn't go together and notes that shouldn't go together and notes that shouldn't go together and just mess around with stuff and I said just mess around with stuff and I said just mess around with stuff and I said well what if I don't do four beats go n well what if I don't do four beats go n well what if I don't do four beats go n n n n one 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 what if n n n one 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 what if n n n one 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 what if I go 1 2 3 4 5 1 2 3 4 five and started I go 1 2 3 4 5 1 2 3 4 five and started I go 1 2 3 4 5 1 2 3 4 five and started messing around time signatures then I messing around time signatures then I messing around time signatures then I was playing um in this band with the was playing um in this band with the was playing um in this band with the great musician who was really Brent great musician who was really Brent great musician who was really Brent ritell who was in this band with me and ritell who was in this band with me and ritell who was in this band with me and he taught me about arranging songs and he taught me about arranging songs and he taught me about arranging songs and it was like What if we take this part it was like What if we take this part it was like What if we take this part and instead of make it go like back and and instead of make it go like back and and instead of make it go like back and forth we make it like a circle or what forth we make it like a circle or what forth we make it like a circle or what if we make it like a straight line you if we make it like a straight line you if we make it like a straight line you know or zigzag you know just make it know or zigzag you know just make it know or zigzag you know just make it like nonlinear in these interesting ways like nonlinear in these interesting ways like nonlinear in these interesting ways and then next thing you know it's like and then next thing you know it's like and then next thing you know it's like the whole world sort of opens up as like the whole world sort of opens up as like the whole world sort of opens up as like the and then what I started to realize the and then what I started to realize the and then what I started to realize especially so you could appreciate this especially so you could appreciate this especially so you could appreciate this as a musician I think so time signatures as a musician I think so time signatures as a musician I think so time signatures right so we are so brainwashed to think right so we are so brainwashed to think right so we are so brainwashed to think in 44 right every rock song you can in 44 right every rock song you can in 44 right every rock song you can think of almost is in 44 I know you're a think of almost is in 44 I know you're a think of almost is in 44 I know you're a Floyd fan so think of Money by Pink Floyd fan so think of Money by Pink Floyd fan so think of Money by Pink Floyd right yeah yeah you feel like it's in 44 yeah yeah you feel like it's in 44 because it resolves itself but it because it resolves itself but it because it resolves itself but it resolves on the the last note of the resolves on the the last note of the resolves on the the last note of the basically it resolves on the first note basically it resolves on the first note basically it resolves on the first note of the next measure so it's got seven of the next measure so it's got seven of the next measure so it's got seven beats instead of eight where the Riff is beats instead of eight where the Riff is beats instead of eight where the Riff is actually happening interesting but actually happening interesting but actually happening interesting but you're thinking in four because that's you're thinking in four because that's you're thinking in four because that's how we used we're used to thinking so how we used we're used to thinking so how we used we're used to thinking so the music flows a little bit faster than

the music flows a little bit faster than the music flows a little bit faster than it's supposed to and you're getting a it's supposed to and you're getting a it's supposed to and you're getting a little bit of prediction error every little bit of prediction error every little bit of prediction error every time this is happening and once I got time this is happening and once I got time this is happening and once I got used to that I was like I hate writing used to that I was like I hate writing used to that I was like I hate writing in 44 because I was like everything just in 44 because I was like everything just in 44 because I was like everything just feels better if I do it in seven4 if I feels better if I do it in seven4 if I feels better if I do it in seven4 if I alternate between four and three and and alternate between four and three and and alternate between four and three and and doing all this stuff and then it's like doing all this stuff and then it's like doing all this stuff and then it's like you just and you jazz music is like that you just and you jazz music is like that you just and you jazz music is like that you know they just do so much you know they just do so much you know they just do so much interesting stuff with us and so playing interesting stuff with us and so playing interesting stuff with us and so playing with those signatures allows you to like with those signatures allows you to like with those signatures allows you to like really break it all open and just I really break it all open and just I really break it all open and just I guess there's something about that where guess there's something about that where guess there's something about that where it allows you to actually have fun yeah it allows you to actually have fun yeah it allows you to actually have fun yeah yeah and it's like so I'm actually like yeah and it's like so I'm actually like yeah and it's like so I'm actually like a a a very the Gen the one of the genres we very the Gen the one of the genres we very the Gen the one of the genres we used to play in was math rock is what used to play in was math rock is what used to play in was math rock is what they called it which is like this is so they called it which is like this is so they called it which is like this is so many weird time sign what is math oh many weird time sign what is math oh many weird time sign what is math oh interesting yeah so that's that's the interesting yeah so that's that's the interesting yeah so that's that's the math part of rock is what the the ma math part of rock is what the the ma math part of rock is what the the ma mathematical disturbances of it or what mathematical disturbances of it or what mathematical disturbances of it or what yeah I guess it would be like so instead yeah I guess it would be like so instead yeah I guess it would be like so instead of you might go like and instead of of you might go like and instead of of you might go like and instead of playing four beats in every measure no playing four beats in every measure no playing four beats in every measure no no no no no no no no you go no no no no no no no no no no no you go no no no no no no no no no no no you go no no no no no no no no you know just do these no no no no you know just do these no no no no you know just do these things and then you might arrange it in things and then you might arrange it in things and then you might arrange it in weird ways so that there might be three weird ways so that there might be three weird ways so that there might be three measures of verse and then one you know measures of verse and then one you know measures of verse and then one you know and then five measures of chorus and and then five measures of chorus and and then five measures of chorus and then two measure so you could just mess then two measure so you could just mess then two measure so you could just mess around with everything right what does around with everything right what does around with everything right what does that feel like to listen to there's that feel like to listen to there's that feel like to listen to there's there's something about symmetry or or there's something about symmetry or or there's something about symmetry or or like patterns that feel like patterns that feel like patterns that feel good and like relaxing for us or good and like relaxing for us or good and like relaxing for us or whatever feels like home and disturbing whatever feels like home and disturbing whatever feels like home and disturbing that can be quite disturbing yeah so is

that can be quite disturbing yeah so is that can be quite disturbing yeah so is that is that the feeling you would have that is that the feeling you would have that is that the feeling you would have if you were keeping math Rock I mean if you were keeping math Rock I mean if you were keeping math Rock I mean yeah yeah that's stressing me out just yeah yeah that's stressing me out just yeah yeah that's stressing me out just listening well yeah yeah learning about listening well yeah yeah learning about listening well yeah yeah learning about it so I mean it depends so a lot of my it so I mean it depends so a lot of my it so I mean it depends so a lot of my style of songwriting is very much like style of songwriting is very much like style of songwriting is very much like in terms of like repetitive themes but in terms of like repetitive themes but in terms of like repetitive themes but messing around with structure cuz I'm messing around with structure cuz I'm messing around with structure cuz I'm not a great guitarist technically and so not a great guitarist technically and so not a great guitarist technically and so I don't play complicated stuff and I don't play complicated stuff and I don't play complicated stuff and there's things you can hear stuff where there's things you can hear stuff where there's things you can hear stuff where it's just like so complicated you know it's just like so complicated you know it's just like so complicated you know um but often what I find is is like um but often what I find is is like um but often what I find is is like having a melody or and then adding some having a melody or and then adding some having a melody or and then adding some dissonance to it just enough and then dissonance to it just enough and then dissonance to it just enough and then adding some complexity that gets gets adding some complexity that gets gets adding some complexity that gets gets you going just enough but I have a high you going just enough but I have a high you going just enough but I have a high tolerance for for that kind of tolerance for for that kind of tolerance for for that kind of dissonance and prediction I think I have dissonance and prediction I think I have dissonance and prediction I think I have a theory a pet theory that it's like a theory a pet theory that it's like a theory a pet theory that it's like basically you can explain most of human basically you can explain most of human basically you can explain most of human behavior as some people are lumpers and behavior as some people are lumpers and behavior as some people are lumpers and some people are Splitters you know and some people are Splitters you know and some people are Splitters you know and so it's like some people are very kind so it's like some people are very kind so it's like some people are very kind of excited when they get this distance of excited when they get this distance of excited when they get this distance and they want to like go with it so and they want to like go with it so and they want to like go with it so people are just like no I want to lump people are just like no I want to lump people are just like no I want to lump every you know I don't know maybe that's every you know I don't know maybe that's every you know I don't know maybe that's even a different thing but it's like even a different thing but it's like even a different thing but it's like basically it's like I think some people basically it's like I think some people basically it's like I think some people get scared of that discomfort yeah and I get scared of that discomfort yeah and I get scared of that discomfort yeah and I really really really gra you know I love it what's uh I gra you know I love it what's uh I gra you know I love it what's uh I what's the name of your band now the what's the name of your band now the what's the name of your band now the cover band I play in is a band called cover band I play in is a band called cover band I play in is a band called Pavlov's dogs Pavlov's dogs Pavlov's dogs and so yeah so it's a it's a band of and so yeah so it's a it's a band of and so yeah so it's a it's a band of unsurprisingly of mostly memory unsurprisingly of mostly memory unsurprisingly of mostly memory researchers neuroscientist I love this I

researchers neuroscientist I love this I researchers neuroscientist I love this I love this so much yeah actually one of love this so much yeah actually one of love this so much yeah actually one of your MIT colleagues Earl Miller plays your MIT colleagues Earl Miller plays your MIT colleagues Earl Miller plays bass plays bass you play like you play bass plays bass you play like you play bass plays bass you play like you play do you play or you could compete if you do you play or you could compete if you do you play or you could compete if you want maybe we could audition you for want maybe we could audition you for want maybe we could audition you for audition oh yeah I'm Coming For You audition oh yeah I'm Coming For You audition oh yeah I'm Coming For You Earl ear spot Earl's going to kill me Earl ear spot Earl's going to kill me Earl ear spot Earl's going to kill me he's like very precise that I'll play he's like very precise that I'll play he's like very precise that I'll play triangle or something triangle or something triangle or something or is it where the cowbell yeah I'll be or is it where the cowbell yeah I'll be or is it where the cowbell yeah I'll be the cowbell guy and you got what kind of the cowbell guy and you got what kind of the cowbell guy and you got what kind of songs do you guys do uh so it's mostly songs do you guys do uh so it's mostly songs do you guys do uh so it's mostly uh uh s late 70s punk and 80s new wave uh uh s late 70s punk and 80s new wave uh uh s late 70s punk and 80s new wave and and uh Post Punk Blondie uh Ramon and and uh Post Punk Blondie uh Ramon and and uh Post Punk Blondie uh Ramon Clash uh I do I sing uh age of consent Clash uh I do I sing uh age of consent Clash uh I do I sing uh age of consent by New Order and and level Terrace you by New Order and and level Terrace you by New Order and and level Terrace you have a female singer now yeah yeah yeah have a female singer now yeah yeah yeah have a female singer now yeah yeah yeah Carri Hoffman and also um Paula Croc and Carri Hoffman and also um Paula Croc and Carri Hoffman and also um Paula Croc and and so they do and so they do and so they do uh they do yeah so Carrie does Blondie uh they do yeah so Carrie does Blondie uh they do yeah so Carrie does Blondie amazingly well and we do like Gigantic amazingly well and we do like Gigantic amazingly well and we do like Gigantic by the Pixies Paula does that one which by the Pixies Paula does that one which by the Pixies Paula does that one which song Do You Love to play the most what song Do You Love to play the most what song Do You Love to play the most what kind of song is super fun for you kind kind of song is super fun for you kind kind of song is super fun for you kind of s of someone else's yeah cover yeah of s of someone else's yeah cover yeah of s of someone else's yeah cover yeah cover okay and it's one we do with cover okay and it's one we do with cover okay and it's one we do with Pavlov's Pavlov's Pavlov's dogs I really enjoy playing I Want To Be dogs I really enjoy playing I Want To Be dogs I really enjoy playing I Want To Be Your Dog by Iggy and the stes a good Your Dog by Iggy and the stes a good Your Dog by Iggy and the stes a good song which is perfect cuz we're Pavlov's song which is perfect cuz we're Pavlov's song which is perfect cuz we're Pavlov's dogs and pav of course was like dogs and pav of course was like dogs and pav of course was like basically created learning theory so you basically created learning theory so you basically created learning theory so you know there's that but also it's like but know there's that but also it's like but know there's that but also it's like but I mean Iggy in the Stooges that song so I mean Iggy in the Stooges that song so I mean Iggy in the Stooges that song so I play and sing on it but it's just like

I play and sing on it but it's just like I play and sing on it but it's just like it devolves into total noise and I just it devolves into total noise and I just it devolves into total noise and I just like uh fall on the floor and generate like uh fall on the floor and generate like uh fall on the floor and generate feedback I've like I think in the last feedback I've like I think in the last feedback I've like I think in the last version it might have been that or a version it might have been that or a version it might have been that or a Velvet Underground cover in our last Velvet Underground cover in our last Velvet Underground cover in our last show I actually I have a guitar made of show I actually I have a guitar made of show I actually I have a guitar made of aluminum that I got made and I thought aluminum that I got made and I thought aluminum that I got made and I thought this thing's indestructible and so I this thing's indestructible and so I this thing's indestructible and so I kind of like was just you know moving kind of like was just you know moving kind of like was just you know moving around had it upside down and all this around had it upside down and all this around had it upside down and all this stuff to generate feedback and I think I stuff to generate feedback and I think I stuff to generate feedback and I think I broke one of the I broke one of the broke one of the I broke one of the broke one of the I broke one of the tuning pegs and oh yeah so I man I maned tuning pegs and oh yeah so I man I maned tuning pegs and oh yeah so I man I maned to break it all metal guitar go to break it all metal guitar go to break it all metal guitar go figure a bit of a big ridiculous figure a bit of a big ridiculous figure a bit of a big ridiculous question but let me ask you we've been question but let me ask you we've been question but let me ask you we've been talking about Neuroscience in general uh talking about Neuroscience in general uh talking about Neuroscience in general uh what what do you you've been studying what what do you you've been studying what what do you you've been studying the human mind for a long time what do the human mind for a long time what do the human mind for a long time what do you love most about the human mind like you love most about the human mind like you love most about the human mind like when you look at it uh we look at the when you look at it uh we look at the when you look at it uh we look at the fmri just the scans and the behavioral fmri just the scans and the behavioral fmri just the scans and the behavioral stuff the electros you know the stuff the electros you know the stuff the electros you know the psychology aspect reading the literature psychology aspect reading the literature psychology aspect reading the literature on the biology side neur biology all of on the biology side neur biology all of on the biology side neur biology all of it when you look at it what it when you look at it what it when you look at it what what what is most like beautiful to you what what is most like beautiful to you what what is most like beautiful to you I think the most beautiful but I think the most beautiful but I think the most beautiful but incredibly hard to put your finger on is incredibly hard to put your finger on is incredibly hard to put your finger on is this idea of the internal model that this idea of the internal model that this idea of the internal model that it's like there's everything you see and it's like there's everything you see and it's like there's everything you see and there's everything you hear and touch there's everything you hear and touch there's everything you hear and touch and take tast you know Every Breath You and take tast you know Every Breath You and take tast you know Every Breath You Take Take Take whatever but it's all connected by this whatever but it's all connected by this whatever but it's all connected by this like dark energy that's holding that

like dark energy that's holding that like dark energy that's holding that whole universe of your mind together whole universe of your mind together whole universe of your mind together right and without that it's just a bunch right and without that it's just a bunch right and without that it's just a bunch of stuff and somehow we put that of stuff and somehow we put that of stuff and somehow we put that together and it forms our so much of our together and it forms our so much of our together and it forms our so much of our experience and being able to figure out experience and being able to figure out experience and being able to figure out where that comes from and how things are where that comes from and how things are where that comes from and how things are connected to me is is just amazing but connected to me is is just amazing but connected to me is is just amazing but just this idea of like that the world in just this idea of like that the world in just this idea of like that the world in front of us we're only sampling this front of us we're only sampling this front of us we're only sampling this little bit and trying to take so much little bit and trying to take so much little bit and trying to take so much meaning from it and we do a really good meaning from it and we do a really good meaning from it and we do a really good job not perfect I mean you know but that job not perfect I mean you know but that job not perfect I mean you know but that ability to me is just amazing yeah it's ability to me is just amazing yeah it's ability to me is just amazing yeah it's an incredible mystery all of it it's an incredible mystery all of it it's an incredible mystery all of it it's funny you said Dark Energy because the funny you said Dark Energy because the funny you said Dark Energy because the same in in astrophysics you look out same in in astrophysics you look out same in in astrophysics you look out there you look at dark matter and dark there you look at dark matter and dark there you look at dark matter and dark energy which is this loose term assigned energy which is this loose term assigned energy which is this loose term assigned to a thing we don't understand which to a thing we don't understand which to a thing we don't understand which makes up which helps make the equations makes up which helps make the equations makes up which helps make the equations work in terms of gravity and the work in terms of gravity and the work in terms of gravity and the expansion of the universe in the same expansion of the universe in the same expansion of the universe in the same way it seems like there's that kind of way it seems like there's that kind of way it seems like there's that kind of thing in the human mind that we're like thing in the human mind that we're like thing in the human mind that we're like striving to understand yeah yeah you striving to understand yeah yeah you striving to understand yeah yeah you know it's funny that you mentioned that know it's funny that you mentioned that know it's funny that you mentioned that so one of the reasons I wrote the book so one of the reasons I wrote the book so one of the reasons I wrote the book amongst many is is that I really felt amongst many is is that I really felt amongst many is is that I really felt like people needed to hear from like people needed to hear from like people needed to hear from scientists and like Co was just a great scientists and like Co was just a great scientists and like Co was just a great example of this because like people example of this because like people example of this because like people weren't hearing from scientists one of weren't hearing from scientists one of weren't hearing from scientists one of the things I think that people didn't the things I think that people didn't the things I think that people didn't get was the uncertainty of science and get was the uncertainty of science and get was the uncertainty of science and how much we don't know and I think every how much we don't know and I think every how much we don't know and I think every scientist lives in this world of scientist lives in this world of scientist lives in this world of uncertainty and when I was uh um writing

uncertainty and when I was uh um writing uncertainty and when I was uh um writing the book I just became aware of all of the book I just became aware of all of the book I just became aware of all of these things we don't know and so I these things we don't know and so I these things we don't know and so I think of physics a lot I think of this think of physics a lot I think of this think of physics a lot I think of this idea of idea of idea of like overwhelming majority of the stuff like overwhelming majority of the stuff like overwhelming majority of the stuff that's in our universe cannot be that's in our universe cannot be that's in our universe cannot be directly measured I used to think haha I directly measured I used to think haha I directly measured I used to think haha I hate physics so this is physicists get hate physics so this is physicists get hate physics so this is physicists get The Nobel prize for doing whatever The Nobel prize for doing whatever The Nobel prize for doing whatever stupid thing it's like there's 10 stupid thing it's like there's 10 stupid thing it's like there's 10 physicists out there I'm just kidding physicists out there I'm just kidding physicists out there I'm just kidding dis strong words yeah no no no I'm dis strong words yeah no no no I'm dis strong words yeah no no no I'm kidding it's the physicists who do kidding it's the physicists who do kidding it's the physicists who do Neuroscience can be rather opinionated Neuroscience can be rather opinionated Neuroscience can be rather opinionated so sometimes I like to Dish on it's all so sometimes I like to Dish on it's all so sometimes I like to Dish on it's all love it's all love that's right I it's love it's all love that's right I it's love it's all love that's right I it's 8hd talking so um uh but at some point I 8hd talking so um uh but at some point I 8hd talking so um uh but at some point I had this aha moment where I was like to had this aha moment where I was like to had this aha moment where I was like to be aware of that much that we don't know be aware of that much that we don't know be aware of that much that we don't know and have a beat on it and be able to go and have a beat on it and be able to go and have a beat on it and be able to go towards it that's one of the biggest towards it that's one of the biggest towards it that's one of the biggest scientific successes that I could think scientific successes that I could think scientific successes that I could think of you are aware that you don't know of you are aware that you don't know of you are aware that you don't know about this gigantic section overwhelming about this gigantic section overwhelming about this gigantic section overwhelming majority of the universe right and I majority of the universe right and I majority of the universe right and I think the more what keeps me going to think the more what keeps me going to think the more what keeps me going to some extent is realizing the changing some extent is realizing the changing some extent is realizing the changing the scope of the problem and figuring the scope of the problem and figuring the scope of the problem and figuring out oh my God there's all these things out oh my God there's all these things out oh my God there's all these things we don't know and I thought I knew this we don't know and I thought I knew this we don't know and I thought I knew this because science is all about assumptions because science is all about assumptions because science is all about assumptions right so have you ever read the right so have you ever read the right so have you ever read the structure of scientific revolutions by structure of scientific revolutions by structure of scientific revolutions by Thomas yes that's like my only Thomas yes that's like my only Thomas yes that's like my only philosophy really that I've read but philosophy really that I've read but philosophy really that I've read but it's so brilliant in the way that they

it's so brilliant in the way that they it's so brilliant in the way that they frame this idea of like he frames this frame this idea of like he frames this frame this idea of like he frames this idea of assumptions being core to the idea of assumptions being core to the idea of assumptions being core to the scientific process and the Paradigm scientific process and the Paradigm scientific process and the Paradigm Shift comes from changing those Shift comes from changing those Shift comes from changing those assumptions and this idea of like assumptions and this idea of like assumptions and this idea of like finding out this kind of whole zone of finding out this kind of whole zone of finding out this kind of whole zone of what you don't know to me is the what you don't know to me is the what you don't know to me is the exciting part you know exciting part you know exciting part you know well you are a great scientist and you well you are a great scientist and you well you are a great scientist and you wrote an incredible book so thank you wrote an incredible book so thank you wrote an incredible book so thank you for doing that and thank you for talking for doing that and thank you for talking for doing that and thank you for talking today you've uh decreased the amount of today you've uh decreased the amount of today you've uh decreased the amount of uncertainty I have uh just a tiny little uncertainty I have uh just a tiny little uncertainty I have uh just a tiny little bit today and reveal the beauty of bit today and reveal the beauty of bit today and reveal the beauty of memory this fascinating conversation memory this fascinating conversation memory this fascinating conversation thank you for talking today oh thank you thank you for talking today oh thank you thank you for talking today oh thank you it's been it's been it's been blast thanks for listening to this blast thanks for listening to this blast thanks for listening to this conversation with Chon Rano to support conversation with Chon Rano to support conversation with Chon Rano to support podcast please check out our sponsors in podcast please check out our sponsors in podcast please check out our sponsors in the description and now let me leave you the description and now let me leave you the description and now let me leave you with some words from Haruki morakami with some words from Haruki morakami with some words from Haruki morakami most things are forgotten over time even most things are forgotten over time even most things are forgotten over time even the war itself the life and death the war itself the life and death the war itself the life and death struggle people went through is now like struggle people went through is now like struggle people went through is now like something from the distant past we're so something from the distant past we're so something from the distant past we're so caught up in our everyday lives that caught up in our everyday lives that caught up in our everyday lives that events of the past are no longer in events of the past are no longer in events of the past are no longer in orbit around our minds there are just orbit around our minds there are just orbit around our minds there are just too many things we have to think about too many things we have to think about too many things we have to think about every day too many new things we have to every day too many new things we have to every day too many new things we have to learn but still no matter how much time learn but still no matter how much time learn but still no matter how much time passes no matter what takes place in the passes no matter what takes place in the passes no matter what takes place in the interim there are some things we can interim there are some things we can interim there are some things we can never assign to Oblivion memories we can

never assign to Oblivion memories we can never assign to Oblivion memories we can never rub away they remain with us never rub away they remain with us never rub away they remain with us forever like a forever like a forever like a touchstone thank you for listening I touchstone thank you for listening I touchstone thank you for listening I hope to see you next time