The AI Slop Problem Nobody's Talking About | Substack CEO Interview

Chris, it's great to have you on here. Chris, it's great to have you on here. Uh, tell me about you, about yourself, Uh, tell me about you, about yourself, Uh, tell me about you, about yourself, how you got into this problem space. how you got into this problem space. how you got into this problem space. Would love to hear a little bit about Would love to hear a little bit about Would love to hear a little bit about it. it. it. >> Hey, my name is Chris Best. I'm the >> Hey, my name is Chris Best. I'm the >> Hey, my name is Chris Best. I'm the co-founder and CEO of Substack. co-founder and CEO of Substack. co-founder and CEO of Substack. >> Amazing. And I know that we're talking a >> Amazing. And I know that we're talking a >> Amazing. And I know that we're talking a lot about AI slop today. We're talking a lot about AI slop today. We're talking a lot about AI slop today. We're talking a lot about what Substack is doing about lot about what Substack is doing about lot about what Substack is doing about that, how you're thinking about it. that, how you're thinking about it. that, how you're thinking about it. maybe walk me into how you recognized maybe walk me into how you recognized maybe walk me into how you recognized this was something that you wanted this was something that you wanted this was something that you wanted Substack to address and sort of your Substack to address and sort of your Substack to address and sort of your perspective on the whole problem space perspective on the whole problem space perspective on the whole problem space and we can kick it around a little bit. and we can kick it around a little bit. and we can kick it around a little bit. >> Yeah. You know, I guess in some ways >> Yeah. You know, I guess in some ways >> Yeah. You know, I guess in some ways slop defined broadly as you know content slop defined broadly as you know content slop defined broadly as you know content that nobody believes in is I kind of that nobody believes in is I kind of that nobody believes in is I kind of think of as the foil for Substack. The think of as the foil for Substack. The think of as the foil for Substack. The thing that we exist to do in the world thing that we exist to do in the world thing that we exist to do in the world is help people make things they believe is help people make things they believe is help people make things they believe in and make money doing it. And so, you in and make money doing it. And so, you in and make money doing it. And so, you know, defined broadly all the way from know, defined broadly all the way from know, defined broadly all the way from spam to clickbait to kind of like, you spam to clickbait to kind of like, you spam to clickbait to kind of like, you know, generic soulless stuff. That's know, generic soulless stuff. That's know, generic soulless stuff. That's sort of the stuff that Substack, you sort of the stuff that Substack, you sort of the stuff that Substack, you know, exists to provide a real know, exists to provide a real know, exists to provide a real alternative to. And then I've had the alternative to. And then I've had the alternative to. And then I've had the experience, I think many people have, experience, I think many people have, experience, I think many people have, you know, over the past 12 months on the you know, over the past 12 months on the you know, over the past 12 months on the internet, having this feeling of more internet, having this feeling of more internet, having this feeling of more and more places that I spend my time and and more places that I spend my time and and more places that I spend my time and life online feeling kind of like life online feeling kind of like life online feeling kind of like inundated with things that I I perceive inundated with things that I I perceive inundated with things that I I perceive or I feel as slob. um things that are or I feel as slob. um things that are or I feel as slob. um things that are you know thoughtlessly made or that are you know thoughtlessly made or that are you know thoughtlessly made or that are presented as sort of deep work by

presented as sort of deep work by presented as sort of deep work by somebody but are actually kind of somebody but are actually kind of somebody but are actually kind of recognizably like clawed copypaste. recognizably like clawed copypaste. recognizably like clawed copypaste. Um, so I sort of as just like a consumer Um, so I sort of as just like a consumer Um, so I sort of as just like a consumer of the internet, I kind of of the internet, I kind of of the internet, I kind of >> uh had this feeling. >> uh had this feeling. >> uh had this feeling. >> Um, and then there's been, you know, I >> Um, and then there's been, you know, I >> Um, and then there's been, you know, I started talking to the guys at Pangram started talking to the guys at Pangram started talking to the guys at Pangram who are one of the sort of leading, who are one of the sort of leading, who are one of the sort of leading, >> you know, uh, AI text detection things >> you know, uh, AI text detection things >> you know, uh, AI text detection things and they have, they had launched a and they have, they had launched a and they have, they had launched a Chrome extension where they could, you Chrome extension where they could, you Chrome extension where they could, you know, you can kind of like turn it on know, you can kind of like turn it on know, you can kind of like turn it on and see for yourself what you're and see for yourself what you're and see for yourself what you're [snorts] reading online. And they put [snorts] reading online. And they put [snorts] reading online. And they put together some stats of kind of like how together some stats of kind of like how together some stats of kind of like how prevalent is this on a bunch of major prevalent is this on a bunch of major prevalent is this on a bunch of major platforms. And this that this the stat platforms. And this that this the stat platforms. And this that this the stat that kind of blew me away was for long that kind of blew me away was for long that kind of blew me away was for long form writing on LinkedIn something like form writing on LinkedIn something like form writing on LinkedIn something like 40% of it was fully sort of generated 40% of it was fully sort of generated 40% of it was fully sort of generated according to their measures. according to their measures. according to their measures. >> And that's not a perfect that's not like >> And that's not a perfect that's not like >> And that's not a perfect that's not like a perfect correlation. doesn't mean a perfect correlation. doesn't mean a perfect correlation. doesn't mean that, you know, I think of it as not all that, you know, I think of it as not all that, you know, I think of it as not all AI is slop and not all slop is AI, but AI is slop and not all slop is AI, but AI is slop and not all slop is AI, but if you just think of, you know, the if you just think of, you know, the if you just think of, you know, the share of text that's human written share of text that's human written share of text that's human written changing dramatically in the places changing dramatically in the places changing dramatically in the places where we spend a lot of our time online, where we spend a lot of our time online, where we spend a lot of our time online, it just seems very obvious to me that it just seems very obvious to me that it just seems very obvious to me that this is going to be a major uh a major this is going to be a major uh a major this is going to be a major uh a major change and a major thing that platforms change and a major thing that platforms change and a major thing that platforms and people get to navigate.

and people get to navigate. and people get to navigate. >> Yeah, I I very much think so. And I >> Yeah, I I very much think so. And I >> Yeah, I I very much think so. And I think that's why like when you sort of think that's why like when you sort of think that's why like when you sort of scouted the idea, the first thing I scouted the idea, the first thing I scouted the idea, the first thing I thought was we got to talk like we got thought was we got to talk like we got thought was we got to talk like we got to have a conversation about this to have a conversation about this to have a conversation about this because one of the things that's been, because one of the things that's been, because one of the things that's been, you know, really interesting for me is you know, really interesting for me is you know, really interesting for me is to see exactly the same trend line that to see exactly the same trend line that to see exactly the same trend line that you talked about, but to see it both you talked about, but to see it both you talked about, but to see it both from the wider internet perspective and from the wider internet perspective and from the wider internet perspective and also from inside organizations. Uh, and also from inside organizations. Uh, and also from inside organizations. Uh, and so when I'm inside organizations now, so when I'm inside organizations now, so when I'm inside organizations now, you have kind of the same issue. you you have kind of the same issue. you you have kind of the same issue. you have docs that are written uh and no one have docs that are written uh and no one have docs that are written uh and no one knows what's in them. Uh sometimes it's knows what's in them. Uh sometimes it's knows what's in them. Uh sometimes it's slacks that are written and you can just slacks that are written and you can just slacks that are written and you can just tell it's like the you're absolutely tell it's like the you're absolutely tell it's like the you're absolutely right fallacy, right? You can just tell right fallacy, right? You can just tell right fallacy, right? You can just tell that there's sort of an AI smell about that there's sort of an AI smell about that there's sort of an AI smell about it, it, it, >> right? Somebody said the PR to review >> right? Somebody said the PR to review >> right? Somebody said the PR to review and you're like I'm the first person and you're like I'm the first person and you're like I'm the first person that's read this. that's read this. that's read this. >> I just know I am. Right. Um, and I think >> I just know I am. Right. Um, and I think >> I just know I am. Right. Um, and I think that that's it's a problem because, that that's it's a problem because, that that's it's a problem because, you know, Substack, at least my you know, Substack, at least my you know, Substack, at least my perspective, is Substack exists because perspective, is Substack exists because perspective, is Substack exists because the public square is where thinking the public square is where thinking the public square is where thinking about the public square is something about the public square is something about the public square is something where we want to have a rich dialogue.

where we want to have a rich dialogue. where we want to have a rich dialogue. We want to have human conversations. And We want to have human conversations. And We want to have human conversations. And that requires humans to show up and that requires humans to show up and that requires humans to show up and humans to think. And AI is certainly a humans to think. And AI is certainly a humans to think. And AI is certainly a part of that discourse. And I I've part of that discourse. And I I've part of that discourse. And I I've certainly been at the forefront sort of certainly been at the forefront sort of certainly been at the forefront sort of with my Substack corner of talking with my Substack corner of talking with my Substack corner of talking through a lot of that. But I if we don't through a lot of that. But I if we don't through a lot of that. But I if we don't bring our human intent into the picture, bring our human intent into the picture, bring our human intent into the picture, it's going to be really hard to it's going to be really hard to it's going to be really hard to convey thinking that has lasting value. convey thinking that has lasting value. convey thinking that has lasting value. And that's like if I think about the And that's like if I think about the And that's like if I think about the foil that you're talking about, the foil that you're talking about, the foil that you're talking about, the contrast between slop and not slop or contrast between slop and not slop or contrast between slop and not slop or slop and anti-slop, slop and anti-slop, slop and anti-slop, it comes down to, you know, intent it comes down to, you know, intent it comes down to, you know, intent and it comes down to thoughtfulness and and it comes down to thoughtfulness and and it comes down to thoughtfulness and engaging with the material. And then engaging with the material. And then engaging with the material. And then some people are going to use AI like a some people are going to use AI like a some people are going to use AI like a paintbrush and work within their intent paintbrush and work within their intent paintbrush and work within their intent and their thoughtfulness and try and and their thoughtfulness and try and and their thoughtfulness and try and create something. Some people are going create something. Some people are going create something. Some people are going to write it by hand. Um, and either way, to write it by hand. Um, and either way, to write it by hand. Um, and either way, those can be different flavors or those can be different flavors or those can be different flavors or different places on the continuum, and different places on the continuum, and different places on the continuum, and there's going to be other people who are there's going to be other people who are there's going to be other people who are uh I I think the example you gave in our uh I I think the example you gave in our uh I I think the example you gave in our earlier conversation was really great.

earlier conversation was really great. earlier conversation was really great. Like, they're going to tell Claude, Like, they're going to tell Claude, Like, they're going to tell Claude, "Make, you know, a thousand blog posts "Make, you know, a thousand blog posts "Make, you know, a thousand blog posts and make no mistakes and they don't even and make no mistakes and they don't even and make no mistakes and they don't even know what's in them and they're doing it know what's in them and they're doing it know what's in them and they're doing it because of, you know, an SEO play or because of, you know, an SEO play or because of, you know, an SEO play or whatever they're doing." Um, and that whatever they're doing." Um, and that whatever they're doing." Um, and that doesn't contribute to the public square. doesn't contribute to the public square. doesn't contribute to the public square. >> Yeah, that's the real dividing line to >> Yeah, that's the real dividing line to >> Yeah, that's the real dividing line to me. Um, you know, I have no interest in me. Um, you know, I have no interest in me. Um, you know, I have no interest in policing what tools people use. Um, you policing what tools people use. Um, you policing what tools people use. Um, you know, we're sort of anti anti- know, we're sort of anti anti- know, we're sort of anti anti- athoritarian, pro- freedom, like give athoritarian, pro- freedom, like give athoritarian, pro- freedom, like give creators the means to do the thing. But creators the means to do the thing. But creators the means to do the thing. But I do think there's a dividing line I do think there's a dividing line I do think there's a dividing line between I'm using tools to make between I'm using tools to make between I'm using tools to make something I believe in versus I'm kind something I believe in versus I'm kind something I believe in versus I'm kind of gaming a system cynically of gaming a system cynically of gaming a system cynically uh to skip the step where I have to uh to skip the step where I have to uh to skip the step where I have to believe in anything at all. believe in anything at all. believe in anything at all. Um, you know, the extreme version just Um, you know, the extreme version just Um, you know, the extreme version just being, yeah, you know, hey, Glaude, being, yeah, you know, hey, Glaude, being, yeah, you know, hey, Glaude, write write a thousand write a thousand write write a thousand write a thousand write write a thousand write a thousand viral posts, like make no mistakes, off viral posts, like make no mistakes, off viral posts, like make no mistakes, off you go. And the problem with that is it you go. And the problem with that is it you go. And the problem with that is it it it it's effectively like a denial of it it it's effectively like a denial of it it it's effectively like a denial of service attack against the public service attack against the public service attack against the public square, square, square, >> right? It's not just a problem of, oh, I >> right? It's not just a problem of, oh, I >> right? It's not just a problem of, oh, I made a thing and it was bad. um even if made a thing and it was bad. um even if made a thing and it was bad. um even if it's good, the the the problem that it's good, the the the problem that it's good, the the the problem that happens is then as a reader, as somebody happens is then as a reader, as somebody happens is then as a reader, as somebody who's spending time online, you have to who's spending time online, you have to who's spending time online, you have to be constantly wondering, is this real?

be constantly wondering, is this real? be constantly wondering, is this real? And under those conditions, it's hard to And under those conditions, it's hard to And under those conditions, it's hard to discover and find value in new things. discover and find value in new things. discover and find value in new things. Like as I've been having these Like as I've been having these Like as I've been having these conversations, I've talked to people conversations, I've talked to people conversations, I've talked to people that have told me things like, "I that have told me things like, "I that have told me things like, "I stopped reading new writers stopped reading new writers stopped reading new writers >> or I had to stop going in my comment >> or I had to stop going in my comment >> or I had to stop going in my comment section at all because a few times it section at all because a few times it section at all because a few times it happened that I would get sucked into happened that I would get sucked into happened that I would get sucked into some long conversation with somebody and some long conversation with somebody and some long conversation with somebody and I it slowly dawned on me that it wasn't I it slowly dawned on me that it wasn't I it slowly dawned on me that it wasn't a person at all. It was kind of a person at all. It was kind of a person at all. It was kind of >> somebody had done this thing that said, >> somebody had done this thing that said, >> somebody had done this thing that said, "Hey, you know, do some replies and max "Hey, you know, do some replies and max "Hey, you know, do some replies and max out my account." And I think under, you out my account." And I think under, you out my account." And I think under, you know, the there are some people who are know, the there are some people who are know, the there are some people who are sort of anti- AI overall and who think, sort of anti- AI overall and who think, sort of anti- AI overall and who think, you know, only humans should ever do you know, only humans should ever do you know, only humans should ever do anything. You know, we have space for anything. You know, we have space for anything. You know, we have space for those people, but we're not I'm not those people, but we're not I'm not those people, but we're not I'm not coming at it from that perspective. coming at it from that perspective. coming at it from that perspective. >> You know, the way I see it is like, hey, >> You know, the way I see it is like, hey, >> You know, the way I see it is like, hey, AI gives us new superpowers, but it also AI gives us new superpowers, but it also AI gives us new superpowers, but it also gives us brand new ways to be annoying gives us brand new ways to be annoying gives us brand new ways to be annoying on the internet, on the internet, on the internet, >> and we're just going to have to deal >> and we're just going to have to deal >> and we're just going to have to deal with that. with that. with that. >> So true. So true. >> So true. So true. >> So true. So true. >> Um, yeah. Sort of on that note, I think >> Um, yeah. Sort of on that note, I think >> Um, yeah. Sort of on that note, I think when you look at the problem of AI, it when you look at the problem of AI, it when you look at the problem of AI, it is is is notoriously sticky or difficult to notoriously sticky or difficult to notoriously sticky or difficult to separate out the use of the tool from separate out the use of the tool from separate out the use of the tool from the responsible use of the tool. And so the responsible use of the tool. And so the responsible use of the tool. And so I'd be curious how you're thinking about I'd be curious how you're thinking about I'd be curious how you're thinking about essentially nurturing the public square, essentially nurturing the public square, essentially nurturing the public square, which to be very honest with you, part which to be very honest with you, part which to be very honest with you, part of why I came to Substack was I liked of why I came to Substack was I liked of why I came to Substack was I liked the quality of the discourse on Substack the quality of the discourse on Substack the quality of the discourse on Substack when I joined. And I was like, I feel when I joined. And I was like, I feel when I joined. And I was like, I feel like this is a place where I could call like this is a place where I could call like this is a place where I could call home. I feel like this is a place where home. I feel like this is a place where home. I feel like this is a place where I could write and it would feel like it I could write and it would feel like it I could write and it would feel like it was the right the right square, the

was the right the right square, the was the right the right square, the right discourse, the right channel, the right discourse, the right channel, the right discourse, the right channel, the right place for me to have a right place for me to have a right place for me to have a conversation at a thoughtful, strategic conversation at a thoughtful, strategic conversation at a thoughtful, strategic uh high context level and I want to keep uh high context level and I want to keep uh high context level and I want to keep it that way and I know you do too. And it that way and I know you do too. And it that way and I know you do too. And so I'm curious like when you think about so I'm curious like when you think about so I'm curious like when you think about the sort of differentiating tool use the sort of differentiating tool use the sort of differentiating tool use from responsible tool use, how do you from responsible tool use, how do you from responsible tool use, how do you think about that? think about that? think about that? Maybe the biggest thing is I do not feel Maybe the biggest thing is I do not feel Maybe the biggest thing is I do not feel like we have all the answers or even like we have all the answers or even like we have all the answers or even should have all the answers. This is should have all the answers. This is should have all the answers. This is kind of like a new we're all kind of kind of like a new we're all kind of kind of like a new we're all kind of entering this new world together. And at entering this new world together. And at entering this new world together. And at the same time, you know, because things the same time, you know, because things the same time, you know, because things are moving so fast, I don't think we are moving so fast, I don't think we are moving so fast, I don't think we have the luxury of waiting around have the luxury of waiting around have the luxury of waiting around indefinitely and kind of like we'll just indefinitely and kind of like we'll just indefinitely and kind of like we'll just see how this all shakes out because I see how this all shakes out because I see how this all shakes out because I think you could, you know, you could think you could, you know, you could think you could, you know, you could wake up and have the Substack app feel wake up and have the Substack app feel wake up and have the Substack app feel like LinkedIn very quickly. Um, and so like LinkedIn very quickly. Um, and so like LinkedIn very quickly. Um, and so the thing that we're, you know, I think the thing that we're, you know, I think the thing that we're, you know, I think this will be uh out by the time this this will be uh out by the time this this will be uh out by the time this airs, the first step we've taken is to airs, the first step we've taken is to airs, the first step we've taken is to build in uh an integration into the build in uh an integration into the build in uh an integration into the Substack app with the pan tool. And so Substack app with the pan tool. And so Substack app with the pan tool. And so if you're somebody if you're just using if you're somebody if you're just using if you're somebody if you're just using the app as you would, there's no change.

the app as you would, there's no change. the app as you would, there's no change. But if you're somebody who's curious, But if you're somebody who's curious, But if you're somebody who's curious, you can go to a long form piece of text you can go to a long form piece of text you can go to a long form piece of text and basically do a scan that says, "Hey, and basically do a scan that says, "Hey, and basically do a scan that says, "Hey, according to the panggram estimate, do according to the panggram estimate, do according to the panggram estimate, do you think this text was, you know, you you think this text was, you know, you you think this text was, you know, you had AI generated or do you think it's had AI generated or do you think it's had AI generated or do you think it's written by hand?" And crucially, that's written by hand?" And crucially, that's written by hand?" And crucially, that's not the same thing as was this made with not the same thing as was this made with not the same thing as was this made with deep care or not. Um, and it's not was deep care or not. Um, and it's not was deep care or not. Um, and it's not was this even AI used in various parts of this even AI used in various parts of this even AI used in various parts of this. the the thing that the technology this. the the thing that the technology this. the the thing that the technology allows us to do with like a reasonably allows us to do with like a reasonably allows us to do with like a reasonably good accuracy is kind of just be like, good accuracy is kind of just be like, good accuracy is kind of just be like, you know, did this text go through an you know, did this text go through an you know, did this text go through an LLM as it was generated? And my view is, LLM as it was generated? And my view is, LLM as it was generated? And my view is, hey, we're going to kind of just start hey, we're going to kind of just start hey, we're going to kind of just start with like put that on the table. Let with like put that on the table. Let with like put that on the table. Let people, you know, let people see that people, you know, let people see that people, you know, let people see that fact for themselves and have an opinion fact for themselves and have an opinion fact for themselves and have an opinion about what that means for them. You about what that means for them. You about what that means for them. You know, my experience using it has been, know, my experience using it has been, know, my experience using it has been, you know, I think there are some times you know, I think there are some times you know, I think there are some times when it's almost everybody thinks it's when it's almost everybody thinks it's when it's almost everybody thinks it's totally fine. It's like, hey, I'm totally fine. It's like, hey, I'm totally fine. It's like, hey, I'm looking up some information from Chat looking up some information from Chat looking up some information from Chat GBT. You know, almost everybody does GBT. You know, almost everybody does GBT. You know, almost everybody does that. Almost everybody finds that that. Almost everybody finds that that. Almost everybody finds that useful. Um, and then there's kind of useful. Um, and then there's kind of useful. Um, and then there's kind of like the other end of the spectrum. I like the other end of the spectrum. I like the other end of the spectrum. I don't know if you if you if you saw this don't know if you if you if you saw this don't know if you if you if you saw this when the Open Claw thing was really hot, when the Open Claw thing was really hot, when the Open Claw thing was really hot, but there was a guy that was having his but there was a guy that was having his but there was a guy that was having his OpenClaw bot respond to text messages OpenClaw bot respond to text messages OpenClaw bot respond to text messages from his wife.

from his wife. from his wife. >> I did see that. My wife and I had a >> I did see that. My wife and I had a >> I did see that. My wife and I had a conversation about that [laughter] conversation about that [laughter] conversation about that [laughter] >> and I think you know that's the other >> and I think you know that's the other >> and I think you know that's the other end of the spectrum. I think like almost end of the spectrum. I think like almost end of the spectrum. I think like almost everybody sees that as maybe not being a everybody sees that as maybe not being a everybody sees that as maybe not being a the kosher use and then the thing is it the kosher use and then the thing is it the kosher use and then the thing is it like I think so there's kind of this like I think so there's kind of this like I think so there's kind of this spectrum spectrum spectrum >> of in what spaces online is the is the >> of in what spaces online is the is the >> of in what spaces online is the is the sort of the cont the implicit contract sort of the cont the implicit contract sort of the cont the implicit contract between reader and writer. Hey, I'm between reader and writer. Hey, I'm between reader and writer. Hey, I'm going to make something for you that's going to make something for you that's going to make something for you that's like carefully crafted and I'm going to like carefully crafted and I'm going to like carefully crafted and I'm going to use a bunch of tools. And then are there use a bunch of tools. And then are there use a bunch of tools. And then are there other spaces where you know in the other spaces where you know in the other spaces where you know in the comments section or in the in your DMs comments section or in the in your DMs comments section or in the in your DMs or in these other places like I think or in these other places like I think or in these other places like I think part of my theory here is that the part of my theory here is that the part of my theory here is that the places that are responsible AI use places that are responsible AI use places that are responsible AI use should should stand up to transparency should should stand up to transparency should should stand up to transparency right you should be able to say yeah I'm right you should be able to say yeah I'm right you should be able to say yeah I'm using I did I used this is how I use using I did I used this is how I use using I did I used this is how I use this and the reader should be able to this and the reader should be able to this and the reader should be able to see that and say this is cool. We're see that and say this is cool. We're see that and say this is cool. We're also giving a little a little option for also giving a little a little option for also giving a little a little option for you to add like a how I make this you to add like a how I make this you to add like a how I make this statement. So, if you want to provide statement. So, if you want to provide statement. So, if you want to provide extra context about like, hey, here's my extra context about like, hey, here's my extra context about like, hey, here's my process or here's what you can expect process or here's what you can expect process or here's what you can expect from me. Um, you know, we're kind of from me. Um, you know, we're kind of from me. Um, you know, we're kind of starting with just giving some starting with just giving some starting with just giving some transparency on both sides of the transparency on both sides of the transparency on both sides of the relationship, giving writers the tools relationship, giving writers the tools relationship, giving writers the tools to check these things for themselves.

to check these things for themselves. to check these things for themselves. And I kind of see it mostly as a way to And I kind of see it mostly as a way to And I kind of see it mostly as a way to sort of open this conversation. We're sort of open this conversation. We're sort of open this conversation. We're not coming here and saying what you can not coming here and saying what you can not coming here and saying what you can and can't do. We're not coming here and and can't do. We're not coming here and and can't do. We're not coming here and shutting anything down or or doing shutting anything down or or doing shutting anything down or or doing anything like that. We're kind of as a anything like that. We're kind of as a anything like that. We're kind of as a first step. We're just introducing uh a first step. We're just introducing uh a first step. We're just introducing uh a one like tick of transparency so people one like tick of transparency so people one like tick of transparency so people can see what's happening. can see what's happening. can see what's happening. >> Yeah. And and it's sort of it's a step >> Yeah. And and it's sort of it's a step >> Yeah. And and it's sort of it's a step into the problem space I think and I into the problem space I think and I into the problem space I think and I think it's an important one because you think it's an important one because you think it's an important one because you don't want to be in a position in a year don't want to be in a position in a year don't want to be in a position in a year where you see the number and it's 40% on where you see the number and it's 40% on where you see the number and it's 40% on Substack Substack Substack >> and yeah >> and yeah >> and yeah >> that would be that that would be bad for >> that would be that that would be bad for >> that would be that that would be bad for everyone I think. Um, and I will say I everyone I think. Um, and I will say I everyone I think. Um, and I will say I think it's really interesting to talk think it's really interesting to talk think it's really interesting to talk about the panggram concept because a and about the panggram concept because a and about the panggram concept because a and it may be worth sort of fleshing out, it may be worth sort of fleshing out, it may be worth sort of fleshing out, but pangram partly works by essentially but pangram partly works by essentially but pangram partly works by essentially learning that LLMs have what we would learning that LLMs have what we would learning that LLMs have what we would call a particular peak around the way call a particular peak around the way call a particular peak around the way they use language. Um, and for whatever they use language. Um, and for whatever they use language. Um, and for whatever reason, reinforcement learning, reason, reinforcement learning, reason, reinforcement learning, pre-training, etc., they they have pre-training, etc., they they have pre-training, etc., they they have centered around a particular way of centered around a particular way of centered around a particular way of expressing language. and pangram finds a expressing language. and pangram finds a expressing language. and pangram finds a way to measure that but that is also way to measure that but that is also way to measure that but that is also somewhat steerable with individual somewhat steerable with individual somewhat steerable with individual models and individual skills and I saw models and individual skills and I saw models and individual skills and I saw someone who released a fine-tune uh of a someone who released a fine-tune uh of a someone who released a fine-tune uh of a model that was specifically fine-tuned model that was specifically fine-tuned model that was specifically fine-tuned to be more human and they were getting to be more human and they were getting to be more human and they were getting like very low panggram scores etc and so like very low panggram scores etc and so like very low panggram scores etc and so I think pangram feels like a way to I think pangram feels like a way to I think pangram feels like a way to essentially call out transparently essentially call out transparently essentially call out transparently that this is something that we need to

that this is something that we need to that this is something that we need to talk about publicly. It literally talk about publicly. It literally talk about publicly. It literally surfaces it into the public square. And surfaces it into the public square. And surfaces it into the public square. And I think it gives creators like me an I think it gives creators like me an I think it gives creators like me an interesting opportunity to talk a little interesting opportunity to talk a little interesting opportunity to talk a little bit more about how we create stuff, bit more about how we create stuff, bit more about how we create stuff, right? I have over 20 different skills right? I have over 20 different skills right? I have over 20 different skills uh that I mess with in codeex and also uh that I mess with in codeex and also uh that I mess with in codeex and also in claude that are related to writing. in claude that are related to writing. in claude that are related to writing. And a lot of what I spend time doing, I And a lot of what I spend time doing, I And a lot of what I spend time doing, I use Whisper Flow in my creative process. use Whisper Flow in my creative process. use Whisper Flow in my creative process. And I spend a lot of time essentially And I spend a lot of time essentially And I spend a lot of time essentially arguing with the AI around the way arguing with the AI around the way arguing with the AI around the way particular ideas are expressed and how particular ideas are expressed and how particular ideas are expressed and how clearly they're expressed and how well clearly they're expressed and how well clearly they're expressed and how well it corresponds to my intent as the it corresponds to my intent as the it corresponds to my intent as the person who's putting the piece out person who's putting the piece out person who's putting the piece out there. And I think especially with sort there. And I think especially with sort there. And I think especially with sort of what I've put together, I'm always of what I've put together, I'm always of what I've put together, I'm always looking to sort of incrementally move looking to sort of incrementally move looking to sort of incrementally move the ball forward on a particular corner the ball forward on a particular corner the ball forward on a particular corner in AI with what I what I write. Right. in AI with what I what I write. Right. in AI with what I what I write. Right. And so I want to make sure that And so I want to make sure that And so I want to make sure that particular concept for the day is particular concept for the day is particular concept for the day is extremely clear. And in you know some extremely clear. And in you know some extremely clear. And in you know some days it's workmen like pros, right? It's days it's workmen like pros, right? It's days it's workmen like pros, right? It's not particularly soaring. No one's going not particularly soaring. No one's going not particularly soaring. No one's going to say it's the Declaration of to say it's the Declaration of to say it's the Declaration of Independence, Independence, Independence, >> but it's clear. And I find that the >> but it's clear. And I find that the >> but it's clear. And I find that the classic LLMisms, the sort of the classic LLMisms, the sort of the classic LLMisms, the sort of the dramatic contrast, the LLM self-talk, um dramatic contrast, the LLM self-talk, um dramatic contrast, the LLM self-talk, um the way headlines tend to be over the way headlines tend to be over the way headlines tend to be over dramatized a lot, that tends to get in dramatized a lot, that tends to get in dramatized a lot, that tends to get in the way of communicating to my audience.

the way of communicating to my audience. the way of communicating to my audience. And that's part of why I have a bunch of And that's part of why I have a bunch of And that's part of why I have a bunch of skills that are essentially designed to skills that are essentially designed to skills that are essentially designed to work on weeding that out, right? like work on weeding that out, right? like work on weeding that out, right? like how do you get it so that it's cleaner how do you get it so that it's cleaner how do you get it so that it's cleaner pros and it sounds more like frankly pros and it sounds more like frankly pros and it sounds more like frankly [snorts] good technical English [snorts] good technical English [snorts] good technical English >> and how how hard do you find you have to >> and how how hard do you find you have to >> and how how hard do you find you have to push it both on the pros and on the push it both on the pros and on the push it both on the pros and on the ideas themselves ideas themselves ideas themselves >> this is >> this is >> this is >> so so this is really interesting I'm >> so so this is really interesting I'm >> so so this is really interesting I'm glad you asked that question because glad you asked that question because glad you asked that question because those are two different answers I think those are two different answers I think those are two different answers I think on the idea itself when I come to the on the idea itself when I come to the on the idea itself when I come to the piece and I have initial clarity in piece and I have initial clarity in piece and I have initial clarity in myself on the thesis and what I want to myself on the thesis and what I want to myself on the thesis and what I want to communicate communicate communicate and how to say it. It will often be like and how to say it. It will often be like and how to say it. It will often be like a 10 15 minute unbroken whisper a 10 15 minute unbroken whisper a 10 15 minute unbroken whisper transcript that I give to start things transcript that I give to start things transcript that I give to start things off because I have so much in my head off because I have so much in my head off because I have so much in my head and I just want to get it out. And with and I just want to get it out. And with and I just want to get it out. And with today's LLMs, like with 5.6 or with today's LLMs, like with 5.6 or with today's LLMs, like with 5.6 or with Fable 5, it's just not a problem. They Fable 5, it's just not a problem. They Fable 5, it's just not a problem. They don't have an issue with that length of don't have an issue with that length of don't have an issue with that length of context or anything like that. And so context or anything like that. And so context or anything like that. And so that gives the LLM a flavor of my voice that gives the LLM a flavor of my voice that gives the LLM a flavor of my voice and the way I approach it. And then at and the way I approach it. And then at and the way I approach it. And then at that point, the clarity is already there that point, the clarity is already there that point, the clarity is already there from the beginning. And it's just about from the beginning. And it's just about from the beginning. And it's just about working with the LLM to make sure it working with the LLM to make sure it working with the LLM to make sure it doesn't wreck the clarity. And sometimes doesn't wreck the clarity. And sometimes doesn't wreck the clarity. And sometimes I have to be that blunt. Like I will see I have to be that blunt. Like I will see I have to be that blunt. Like I will see drafts that I get back in that situation drafts that I get back in that situation drafts that I get back in that situation where I've been clear at the beginning.

where I've been clear at the beginning. where I've been clear at the beginning. And I will say, "You wrecked my clarity. And I will say, "You wrecked my clarity. And I will say, "You wrecked my clarity. You saw it off." Because LLM tend to be You saw it off." Because LLM tend to be You saw it off." Because LLM tend to be cautious by nature. And and I'm part of cautious by nature. And and I'm part of cautious by nature. And and I'm part of what I'm trying to do is move the ball what I'm trying to do is move the ball what I'm trying to do is move the ball forward. And so if they're cautious by forward. And so if they're cautious by forward. And so if they're cautious by nature, I'm going to get a watered down nature, I'm going to get a watered down nature, I'm going to get a watered down version of my thesis unless I'm version of my thesis unless I'm version of my thesis unless I'm deliberately pushing it to actually deliberately pushing it to actually deliberately pushing it to actually listen to what I said. And so in that listen to what I said. And so in that listen to what I said. And so in that process, my drafting tends to be no, process, my drafting tends to be no, process, my drafting tends to be no, listen to my original vision. Respect listen to my original vision. Respect listen to my original vision. Respect it. You're you're you're extending it. it. You're you're you're extending it. it. You're you're you're extending it. You're putting into good written pros, You're putting into good written pros, You're putting into good written pros, like we're cleaning up some of the like we're cleaning up some of the like we're cleaning up some of the verbal ticks, etc. But it's verbal ticks, etc. But it's verbal ticks, etc. But it's fundamentally got to be as bold as what fundamentally got to be as bold as what fundamentally got to be as bold as what I put on put on the screen. And that I put on put on the screen. And that I put on put on the screen. And that process that's what the sort of the process that's what the sort of the process that's what the sort of the pushing looks like being faithful to the pushing looks like being faithful to the pushing looks like being faithful to the original vision. Whereas on the other original vision. Whereas on the other original vision. Whereas on the other side there are days when I am wrestling side there are days when I am wrestling side there are days when I am wrestling with a concept and I know there's with a concept and I know there's with a concept and I know there's something there but my initial something there but my initial something there but my initial transcript in is not clear and I know transcript in is not clear and I know transcript in is not clear and I know it's not clear because I'm still trying it's not clear because I'm still trying it's not clear because I'm still trying to find the idea. to find the idea. to find the idea. >> Right. This is where people might in the >> Right. This is where people might in the >> Right. This is where people might in the past have said that writing is thinking past have said that writing is thinking past have said that writing is thinking >> and yes like you haven't actually you >> and yes like you haven't actually you >> and yes like you haven't actually you haven't finished thinking about this is haven't finished thinking about this is haven't finished thinking about this is maybe one way to to say that maybe one way to to say that maybe one way to to say that >> and I'm very transparent with codeex >> and I'm very transparent with codeex >> and I'm very transparent with codeex about that. So when I when I talk I'm about that. So when I when I talk I'm about that. So when I when I talk I'm like this is not a finished thesis.

like this is not a finished thesis. like this is not a finished thesis. These are the three or four threads we These are the three or four threads we These are the three or four threads we could pull on. These are some things could pull on. These are some things could pull on. These are some things maybe I don't want to go toward and I maybe I don't want to go toward and I maybe I don't want to go toward and I list them out. Uh and then I ask it to list them out. Uh and then I ask it to list them out. Uh and then I ask it to go back and forth with me. And so then go back and forth with me. And so then go back and forth with me. And so then it's more using codeex as a thinking it's more using codeex as a thinking it's more using codeex as a thinking tool. So that I it's almost co-writing tool. So that I it's almost co-writing tool. So that I it's almost co-writing with me. And people think, oh, it's it's with me. And people think, oh, it's it's with me. And people think, oh, it's it's co-writing in the sense that it's co-writing in the sense that it's co-writing in the sense that it's finishing your thinking. But it's finishing your thinking. But it's finishing your thinking. But it's actually more uh giving me like the wall actually more uh giving me like the wall actually more uh giving me like the wall to bounce the tennis ball off of so I to bounce the tennis ball off of so I to bounce the tennis ball off of so I can like wrestle with the idea and come can like wrestle with the idea and come can like wrestle with the idea and come back to something that I feel really back to something that I feel really back to something that I feel really good and have high conviction on. And so good and have high conviction on. And so good and have high conviction on. And so those drafting processes are longer and those drafting processes are longer and those drafting processes are longer and less certain. I have been through less certain. I have been through less certain. I have been through processes like that where it will be all processes like that where it will be all processes like that where it will be all day with codeex and 17 drafts and all AI day with codeex and 17 drafts and all AI day with codeex and 17 drafts and all AI is doing at that point is helping me is doing at that point is helping me is doing at that point is helping me draft faster because normally I wouldn't draft faster because normally I wouldn't draft faster because normally I wouldn't get through 17 drafts in a day but now I get through 17 drafts in a day but now I get through 17 drafts in a day but now I can and that helps me to iterate toward can and that helps me to iterate toward can and that helps me to iterate toward clarity and then I can start to really clarity and then I can start to really clarity and then I can start to really push on the on the pros and the styling. push on the on the pros and the styling. push on the on the pros and the styling. But I you know if you're doing 17 drafts But I you know if you're doing 17 drafts But I you know if you're doing 17 drafts you're pushing it, right? like you're you're pushing it, right? like you're you're pushing it, right? like you're just saying this is not good enough. just saying this is not good enough. just saying this is not good enough. This is not good enough. This is not This is not good enough. This is not This is not good enough. This is not good enough. And it goes higher than good enough. And it goes higher than good enough. And it goes higher than that sometimes because I just I I really that sometimes because I just I I really that sometimes because I just I I really have have have an itch or it feels wrong somehow when an itch or it feels wrong somehow when an itch or it feels wrong somehow when I'm not pushing the AI to line up with I'm not pushing the AI to line up with I'm not pushing the AI to line up with the vision that I have.

the vision that I have. the vision that I have. Yeah, this has been one of the Yeah, this has been one of the Yeah, this has been one of the interesting experiences I've had as I've interesting experiences I've had as I've interesting experiences I've had as I've talked because I've talked to a whole talked because I've talked to a whole talked because I've talked to a whole range of people uh across the spectrum range of people uh across the spectrum range of people uh across the spectrum of AI use all the way from like I would of AI use all the way from like I would of AI use all the way from like I would only ever type things with my human only ever type things with my human only ever type things with my human fingers all the way to, you know, fingers all the way to, you know, fingers all the way to, you know, people. To me, the thing you're people. To me, the thing you're people. To me, the thing you're describing is, you know, what I would describing is, you know, what I would describing is, you know, what I would think of as like think of as like think of as like sort of like high perspective use of the sort of like high perspective use of the sort of like high perspective use of the tools, right? It's like, hey, I'm tools, right? It's like, hey, I'm tools, right? It's like, hey, I'm actually trying to I'm I'm trying to get actually trying to I'm I'm trying to get actually trying to I'm I'm trying to get my perspective out into the world. I my perspective out into the world. I my perspective out into the world. I give I care a lot about the outcome. I'm give I care a lot about the outcome. I'm give I care a lot about the outcome. I'm using this tool. And an interesting using this tool. And an interesting using this tool. And an interesting thing I found is that thing I found is that thing I found is that everybody across that spectrum has had everybody across that spectrum has had everybody across that spectrum has had like a really strong worry about the AI like a really strong worry about the AI like a really strong worry about the AI slop quotient because the the problem is slop quotient because the the problem is slop quotient because the the problem is the problem is there's a loweffort the problem is there's a loweffort the problem is there's a loweffort version of that that can be hard to version of that that can be hard to version of that that can be hard to distinguish at first blush, but that can distinguish at first blush, but that can distinguish at first blush, but that can kind of like take over the comments, can kind of like take over the comments, can kind of like take over the comments, can take over like it can make it harder for take over like it can make it harder for take over like it can make it harder for that stuff to like that stuff to like that stuff to like be differentiated and break through. be differentiated and break through. be differentiated and break through. And it's this is the part something we And it's this is the part something we And it's this is the part something we talked about that I I think might be talked about that I I think might be talked about that I I think might be interesting to get into here. I think interesting to get into here. I think interesting to get into here. I think there might be a there might be a there might be a a sci-fi technology that I wish would a sci-fi technology that I wish would a sci-fi technology that I wish would exist that doesn't exist yet that would exist that doesn't exist yet that would exist that doesn't exist yet that would be very would might be like the perfect be very would might be like the perfect be very would might be like the perfect thing because thing because thing because you know the part of the thing with the you know the part of the thing with the you know the part of the thing with the panggram thing we're giving you we're panggram thing we're giving you we're panggram thing we're giving you we're going to give you like the ability to going to give you like the ability to going to give you like the ability to put down some notes of your thing put down some notes of your thing put down some notes of your thing because the thing that we're going to because the thing that we're going to because the thing that we're going to find is if you're somebody who you know find is if you're somebody who you know find is if you're somebody who you know does 17 drafts and thinks about it and does 17 drafts and thinks about it and does 17 drafts and thinks about it and bounces it back and forth you may end up bounces it back and forth you may end up bounces it back and forth you may end up with something that is still like the

with something that is still like the with something that is still like the text of the final thing is still AI text of the final thing is still AI text of the final thing is still AI output. output. output. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Right. Like the the text according to >> Right. Like the the text according to >> Right. Like the the text according to the panagram or whatever is generated by the panagram or whatever is generated by the panagram or whatever is generated by the thing but it's the it's and it used the thing but it's the it's and it used the thing but it's the it's and it used to be the case that basically when you to be the case that basically when you to be the case that basically when you read something on the internet if you read something on the internet if you read something on the internet if you read a long thing like it's just it's read a long thing like it's just it's read a long thing like it's just it's almost by itself a proof of work like almost by itself a proof of work like almost by itself a proof of work like somebody has put enough thought into somebody has put enough thought into somebody has put enough thought into this to at least write it out. Maybe this to at least write it out. Maybe this to at least write it out. Maybe terrible thought but at least somebody terrible thought but at least somebody terrible thought but at least somebody spent this much attention. And now it's spent this much attention. And now it's spent this much attention. And now it's actually like it's hard to differentiate actually like it's hard to differentiate actually like it's hard to differentiate that from that from that from the person who just says, "Hey, write me the person who just says, "Hey, write me the person who just says, "Hey, write me 10,000 plausible sounding AI takes. Make 10,000 plausible sounding AI takes. Make 10,000 plausible sounding AI takes. Make no mistakes." no mistakes." no mistakes." I'm curious like how you think about I'm curious like how you think about I'm curious like how you think about that and what you think if you think that and what you think if you think that and what you think if you think there's like a technological there's like a technological there's like a technological >> what the technological root thing that >> what the technological root thing that >> what the technological root thing that we actually want is there. we actually want is there. we actually want is there. >> Yeah, I that's a really good question. I >> Yeah, I that's a really good question. I >> Yeah, I that's a really good question. I think so. I think in some senses think so. I think in some senses think so. I think in some senses we a lot of the AI discourse is focused we a lot of the AI discourse is focused we a lot of the AI discourse is focused on the physical typing of the human on the physical typing of the human on the physical typing of the human fingers. Like where where do the words fingers. Like where where do the words fingers. Like where where do the words come from? Either when I type them or come from? Either when I type them or come from? Either when I type them or when the AI magically types them. And I when the AI magically types them. And I when the AI magically types them. And I think when I have spent, you know, think when I have spent, you know, think when I have spent, you know, almost every day for the last couple of almost every day for the last couple of almost every day for the last couple of years wrestling with AI trying to push years wrestling with AI trying to push years wrestling with AI trying to push ideas, ideas, ideas, the thing that leaps back to me is I if the thing that leaps back to me is I if the thing that leaps back to me is I if I have to push the AI this hard on ideas I have to push the AI this hard on ideas I have to push the AI this hard on ideas really implicitly, really implicitly, really implicitly, there's some sort of uh averaged central

there's some sort of uh averaged central there's some sort of uh averaged central distribution of ideas that AI tends to distribution of ideas that AI tends to distribution of ideas that AI tends to favor. There's a gravitational sync if favor. There's a gravitational sync if favor. There's a gravitational sync if you will around a particular subset of you will around a particular subset of you will around a particular subset of concepts. Uh I think one of my favorite concepts. Uh I think one of my favorite concepts. Uh I think one of my favorite examples actually is if you tell AI to examples actually is if you tell AI to examples actually is if you tell AI to uh make any kind of uh list or formal uh make any kind of uh list or formal uh make any kind of uh list or formal document about artificial intelligence, document about artificial intelligence, document about artificial intelligence, it will always without exception have it will always without exception have it will always without exception have something on ethics and governance something on ethics and governance something on ethics and governance whether you asked for it or not. It just whether you asked for it or not. It just whether you asked for it or not. It just it's just baked in. And I found that to it's just baked in. And I found that to it's just baked in. And I found that to be an issue in some of my pieces because be an issue in some of my pieces because be an issue in some of my pieces because not every piece needs to have that, not every piece needs to have that, not every piece needs to have that, right? And I write about AI a lot. And right? And I write about AI a lot. And right? And I write about AI a lot. And so it's something that I actually have so it's something that I actually have so it's something that I actually have to think about how I handle and where I to think about how I handle and where I to think about how I handle and where I emphasize that and where I don't. And as emphasize that and where I don't. And as emphasize that and where I don't. And as a human, I have a much it seems like a a human, I have a much it seems like a a human, I have a much it seems like a wider conceptual pallet. And I think wider conceptual pallet. And I think wider conceptual pallet. And I think that what I would love to see that what I would love to see that what I would love to see is a tool, a a graph, something that we is a tool, a a graph, something that we is a tool, a a graph, something that we can build as a community that allows us can build as a community that allows us can build as a community that allows us to map the wider distribution of human to map the wider distribution of human to map the wider distribution of human ideation, the way we explore concepts, ideation, the way we explore concepts, ideation, the way we explore concepts, the different angles or veillances that the different angles or veillances that the different angles or veillances that we take on concepts that are as diverse we take on concepts that are as diverse we take on concepts that are as diverse as all of us are. and then within that as all of us are. and then within that as all of us are. and then within that to map the much tighter distribution of to map the much tighter distribution of to map the much tighter distribution of the sort of LLM averaged out approach to the sort of LLM averaged out approach to the sort of LLM averaged out approach to ideas and thinking and so this is not ideas and thinking and so this is not ideas and thinking and so this is not necessarily a measure of words it's it's necessarily a measure of words it's it's necessarily a measure of words it's it's a measure of ideas and I think if we can a measure of ideas and I think if we can a measure of ideas and I think if we can get to a solution there that becomes

get to a solution there that becomes get to a solution there that becomes a much more a much more a much more useful and aligned approach to the useful and aligned approach to the useful and aligned approach to the larger goal of having a clean public larger goal of having a clean public larger goal of having a clean public square because we want a public square square because we want a public square square because we want a public square that's diverse. We want to have many that's diverse. We want to have many that's diverse. We want to have many perspectives. We want to have thinking perspectives. We want to have thinking perspectives. We want to have thinking that's original and takes different that's original and takes different that's original and takes different angles. And so why not measure for that, angles. And so why not measure for that, angles. And so why not measure for that, >> right? So the dream might be kind of a >> right? So the dream might be kind of a >> right? So the dream might be kind of a panagram for ideas panagram for ideas panagram for ideas >> rather than looking at the text. It >> rather than looking at the text. It >> rather than looking at the text. It looks at kind of like the underlying looks at kind of like the underlying looks at kind of like the underlying concepts. concepts. concepts. >> I think that would be useful because you >> I think that would be useful because you >> I think that would be useful because you know one thing it's a tempting thing is know one thing it's a tempting thing is know one thing it's a tempting thing is for people to be like oh there's this for people to be like oh there's this for people to be like oh there's this thing that's average to the AIS. It thing that's average to the AIS. It thing that's average to the AIS. It doesn't mean that that thing is bad, doesn't mean that that thing is bad, doesn't mean that that thing is bad, right? There's a, you know, the way I right? There's a, you know, the way I right? There's a, you know, the way I sometimes put this is like Claude is sometimes put this is like Claude is sometimes put this is like Claude is great. I love talking to Claude. I I great. I love talking to Claude. I I great. I love talking to Claude. I I talk to Claude a lot. I get a lot of talk to Claude a lot. I get a lot of talk to Claude a lot. I get a lot of value from Claude, but like when I want value from Claude, but like when I want value from Claude, but like when I want Claude's opinion, I'll go talk to Claude's opinion, I'll go talk to Claude's opinion, I'll go talk to Claude. Claude. Claude. >> I don't need you to be a thin rapper on >> I don't need you to be a thin rapper on >> I don't need you to be a thin rapper on Claude for [laughter] me, Claude for [laughter] me, Claude for [laughter] me, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> And so there's humans to be thick >> And so there's humans to be thick >> And so there's humans to be thick rappers. We want humans to have really rappers. We want humans to have really rappers. We want humans to have really strong opinions and and to drive what strong opinions and and to drive what strong opinions and and to drive what they want out of AI, not the other way they want out of AI, not the other way they want out of AI, not the other way around. And that might get more true as around. And that might get more true as around. And that might get more true as the models get better, not less, right?

the models get better, not less, right? the models get better, not less, right? It's not it's not the case. It's like, It's not it's not the case. It's like, It's not it's not the case. It's like, oh, well, if it's if the pros was just a oh, well, if it's if the pros was just a oh, well, if it's if the pros was just a little better or if the ideas are little better or if the ideas are little better or if the ideas are better. It's the the model can get better. It's the the model can get better. It's the the model can get arbitrarily better and more powerful. arbitrarily better and more powerful. arbitrarily better and more powerful. And what that means is in the places And what that means is in the places And what that means is in the places where the model is deeply valuable, it where the model is deeply valuable, it where the model is deeply valuable, it is going to be like that's not what is going to be like that's not what is going to be like that's not what we're going to turn to humans for we're going to turn to humans for we're going to turn to humans for anymore, anymore, anymore, >> right? anything where it's like I could >> right? anything where it's like I could >> right? anything where it's like I could just ask Claude, people are just going just ask Claude, people are just going just ask Claude, people are just going to ask Claude and that's going to be to ask Claude and that's going to be to ask Claude and that's going to be great for a bunch of things. And then great for a bunch of things. And then great for a bunch of things. And then the the place that's going to have the the place that's going to have the the place that's going to have continued value is in the places that continued value is in the places that continued value is in the places that are not in the central distribution. A are not in the central distribution. A are not in the central distribution. A lot of which may just be, you know, lot of which may just be, you know, lot of which may just be, you know, maybe noise or maybe wrong, right? If maybe noise or maybe wrong, right? If maybe noise or maybe wrong, right? If you if you when you expand that you if you when you expand that you if you when you expand that landscape of ideas into higher variance, landscape of ideas into higher variance, landscape of ideas into higher variance, a lot of what you'll get is stuff that a lot of what you'll get is stuff that a lot of what you'll get is stuff that is mistaken or stuff that is like, you is mistaken or stuff that is like, you is mistaken or stuff that is like, you know, whatever. But that's also where know, whatever. But that's also where know, whatever. But that's also where you'll start to get like the real data you'll start to get like the real data you'll start to get like the real data of new things like almost like you know of new things like almost like you know of new things like almost like you know if you think about where the alpha is if you think about where the alpha is if you think about where the alpha is the alpha is going to be sort of the alpha is going to be sort of the alpha is going to be sort of definitionally in things that are not definitionally in things that are not definitionally in things that are not that you can't just easily get out of that you can't just easily get out of that you can't just easily get out of the thing the thing the thing >> that I I would go even farther than >> that I I would go even farther than >> that I I would go even farther than that. I would say the alpha in terms of that. I would say the alpha in terms of that. I would say the alpha in terms of ideas is absolutely at the edges of the ideas is absolutely at the edges of the ideas is absolutely at the edges of the distribution. I would also say that the distribution. I would also say that the distribution. I would also say that the alpha inhuman connection is going to be alpha inhuman connection is going to be alpha inhuman connection is going to be at the edges of that distribution that at the edges of that distribution that at the edges of that distribution that when we are making a public square like when we are making a public square like when we are making a public square like we're literally referencing the physical we're literally referencing the physical we're literally referencing the physical public square where we all used to meet public square where we all used to meet public square where we all used to meet >> and that we can still see in some of our >> and that we can still see in some of our >> and that we can still see in some of our old towns. And I think that one of the old towns. And I think that one of the old towns. And I think that one of the things that's going to be really things that's going to be really things that's going to be really important is to have communities,

important is to have communities, important is to have communities, whether digital communities or physical whether digital communities or physical whether digital communities or physical IRL communities or a mix of both that IRL communities or a mix of both that IRL communities or a mix of both that facilitate that kind of humanto human facilitate that kind of humanto human facilitate that kind of humanto human interaction because there's some magical interaction because there's some magical interaction because there's some magical third thing that we all know that third thing that we all know that third thing that we all know that happens when we have a rich conversation happens when we have a rich conversation happens when we have a rich conversation and a third perspective emerges because and a third perspective emerges because and a third perspective emerges because two of us are chatting together. two of us are chatting together. two of us are chatting together. And I love that and I think that's one And I love that and I think that's one And I love that and I think that's one of the most powerful things about the of the most powerful things about the of the most powerful things about the public square. And to your point about public square. And to your point about public square. And to your point about comments, we don't want to lose that. >> Yeah. Yeah. We're a social species. >> Yeah. Yeah. We're a social species. And even if you can have kind of like And even if you can have kind of like And even if you can have kind of like superhuman media in every part of latent superhuman media in every part of latent superhuman media in every part of latent space from the model, people are still space from the model, people are still space from the model, people are still going to care about going to care about going to care about discovering and caring about and paying discovering and caring about and paying discovering and caring about and paying attention to those things together. attention to those things together. attention to those things together. there's like an there's another layer there's like an there's another layer there's like an there's another layer that happens that is not you know even that happens that is not you know even that happens that is not you know even if you had a super like you know strong if you had a super like you know strong if you had a super like you know strong AI that could create any work of fiction AI that could create any work of fiction AI that could create any work of fiction or any piece of thing in like the most or any piece of thing in like the most or any piece of thing in like the most convincing most artful way people are convincing most artful way people are convincing most artful way people are still going to care about still going to care about still going to care about other people experiencing and reacting other people experiencing and reacting other people experiencing and reacting and having real lives around these and having real lives around these and having real lives around these things I think things I think things I think >> and we care about the stories that we >> and we care about the stories that we >> and we care about the stories that we create together like It's been really create together like It's been really create together like It's been really interesting for me. I watched the interesting for me. I watched the interesting for me. I watched the Odyssey over the weekend and I've seen Odyssey over the weekend and I've seen Odyssey over the weekend and I've seen this explosion of discourse on Twitter this explosion of discourse on Twitter this explosion of discourse on Twitter about storytelling and where we get our about storytelling and where we get our about storytelling and where we get our stories from, the origin of our stories stories from, the origin of our stories stories from, the origin of our stories and human connection over the over the and human connection over the over the and human connection over the over the centuries, etc. And it got me thinking centuries, etc. And it got me thinking centuries, etc. And it got me thinking like in a sense what makes the Odyssey

like in a sense what makes the Odyssey like in a sense what makes the Odyssey powerful is that after you know 3,000 powerful is that after you know 3,000 powerful is that after you know 3,000 years or whatever, we still have to have years or whatever, we still have to have years or whatever, we still have to have this debate. We still have to talk about this debate. We still have to talk about this debate. We still have to talk about this story. We still have to go back and this story. We still have to go back and this story. We still have to go back and forth and try and make sense of this forth and try and make sense of this forth and try and make sense of this text. And to me, that's the mark of a text. And to me, that's the mark of a text. And to me, that's the mark of a great piece of writing is that it sticks great piece of writing is that it sticks great piece of writing is that it sticks with you and it makes you have these with you and it makes you have these with you and it makes you have these human conversations. human conversations. human conversations. And I think the the pieces that I look And I think the the pieces that I look And I think the the pieces that I look back on Substack that I'm most proud of back on Substack that I'm most proud of back on Substack that I'm most proud of are not the pieces where I could point are not the pieces where I could point are not the pieces where I could point to and say, "Oh, I was right here or to and say, "Oh, I was right here or to and say, "Oh, I was right here or whatever." It's the pieces where it got whatever." It's the pieces where it got whatever." It's the pieces where it got a conversation going. Like when I a conversation going. Like when I a conversation going. Like when I started to talk about Open Engine and started to talk about Open Engine and started to talk about Open Engine and that got the conversation going around that got the conversation going around that got the conversation going around memory and how memory should be yours memory and how memory should be yours memory and how memory should be yours and it shouldn't just belong to any and it shouldn't just belong to any and it shouldn't just belong to any given AI provider. That's something given AI provider. That's something given AI provider. That's something where I think there was a there was a where I think there was a there was a where I think there was a there was a human moment that sparked there that was human moment that sparked there that was human moment that sparked there that was really powerful and that was more than I really powerful and that was more than I really powerful and that was more than I expected and that's what you write for, expected and that's what you write for, expected and that's what you write for, right? You can't predict that that will right? You can't predict that that will right? You can't predict that that will happen every time, every day, but that happen every time, every day, but that happen every time, every day, but that those are the moments that you're those are the moments that you're those are the moments that you're looking to create that that spark a looking to create that that spark a looking to create that that spark a discourse and a ripple that's much discourse and a ripple that's much discourse and a ripple that's much larger than an individual piece. larger than an individual piece. larger than an individual piece. >> Very cool. Well, I should ask you this.

>> Very cool. Well, I should ask you this. >> Very cool. Well, I should ask you this. You're you're a user of Substack both as You're you're a user of Substack both as You're you're a user of Substack both as a as a writer and a creator and I hope a as a writer and a creator and I hope a as a writer and a creator and I hope as a as a reader a bit. Um as a as a reader a bit. Um as a as a reader a bit. Um >> what if if you could have anything for >> what if if you could have anything for >> what if if you could have anything for your experience around this topic like your experience around this topic like your experience around this topic like what would you want? What would make what would you want? What would make what would you want? What would make this what would be the best way to serve this what would be the best way to serve this what would be the best way to serve human creativity on a platform like human creativity on a platform like human creativity on a platform like ours? ours? ours? >> You know maybe we set aside the wave the >> You know maybe we set aside the wave the >> You know maybe we set aside the wave the magic wand idea graph thing. I think magic wand idea graph thing. I think magic wand idea graph thing. I think that's really cool. Maybe we say for now that's really cool. Maybe we say for now that's really cool. Maybe we say for now we put it to the side. Um, I think it we put it to the side. Um, I think it we put it to the side. Um, I think it would be really interesting to have some would be really interesting to have some would be really interesting to have some kind of signal from Substack kind of signal from Substack kind of signal from Substack when an when an when an idea, a concept, a theme that's been idea, a concept, a theme that's been idea, a concept, a theme that's been published or talked about on Substack is published or talked about on Substack is published or talked about on Substack is gaining traction really fast and gaining traction really fast and gaining traction really fast and sparking a ton of conversation and that sparking a ton of conversation and that sparking a ton of conversation and that it it's relevant. And I think we see it it's relevant. And I think we see it it's relevant. And I think we see this a little bit with trending topics this a little bit with trending topics this a little bit with trending topics on X and it can be gameable, right? you on X and it can be gameable, right? you on X and it can be gameable, right? you can absolutely start to gain that. But I can absolutely start to gain that. But I can absolutely start to gain that. But I think with Substack, what's interesting think with Substack, what's interesting think with Substack, what's interesting is that you have long form writing that is that you have long form writing that is that you have long form writing that these ideas can take time to unfold. I these ideas can take time to unfold. I these ideas can take time to unfold. I read a really wonderful piece that still read a really wonderful piece that still read a really wonderful piece that still sticks with me over a year later around sticks with me over a year later around sticks with me over a year later around um Juven's paradox and how it relates to um Juven's paradox and how it relates to um Juven's paradox and how it relates to different uh technological revolutions different uh technological revolutions different uh technological revolutions uh from the from the steam engine on uh from the from the steam engine on uh from the from the steam engine on down to trains on down to etc. etc. like down to trains on down to etc. etc. like down to trains on down to etc. etc. like it went forward to the telephone etc.

it went forward to the telephone etc. it went forward to the telephone etc. And it just stuck with me because it had And it just stuck with me because it had And it just stuck with me because it had this like longer perspective that I was this like longer perspective that I was this like longer perspective that I was able to really marinate with and I was able to really marinate with and I was able to really marinate with and I was able to think with and if we could find able to think with and if we could find able to think with and if we could find a way to basically mark a particular a way to basically mark a particular a way to basically mark a particular series, a particular post, a particular series, a particular post, a particular series, a particular post, a particular topic and say topic and say topic and say in this area, in this domain, this is in this area, in this domain, this is in this area, in this domain, this is advancing the discourse. This is helping advancing the discourse. This is helping advancing the discourse. This is helping us all think a little bit differently. us all think a little bit differently. us all think a little bit differently. uh challenging our thinking, helping us uh challenging our thinking, helping us uh challenging our thinking, helping us expose our assumptions. Uh that's sort expose our assumptions. Uh that's sort expose our assumptions. Uh that's sort of the opposite of Pangram, right? of the opposite of Pangram, right? of the opposite of Pangram, right? That's a way of calling out and saying That's a way of calling out and saying That's a way of calling out and saying there's some real excellence here that there's some real excellence here that there's some real excellence here that we would want to call out and say that we would want to call out and say that we would want to call out and say that this is this is featured or this is this is this is featured or this is this is this is featured or this is highlighted to some extent. Um highlighted to some extent. Um highlighted to some extent. Um because I think in a sense as a reader because I think in a sense as a reader because I think in a sense as a reader that helps me feel like there's other that helps me feel like there's other that helps me feel like there's other eyes than mine that are looking through eyes than mine that are looking through eyes than mine that are looking through Substack for that kind of um spikiness Substack for that kind of um spikiness Substack for that kind of um spikiness or variance on the edge of the or variance on the edge of the or variance on the edge of the distribution that's really interesting, distribution that's really interesting, distribution that's really interesting, unusual, and and high quality.

unusual, and and high quality. unusual, and and high quality. >> Yeah. It's like what is the opposite of >> Yeah. It's like what is the opposite of >> Yeah. It's like what is the opposite of slop and how could we slop and how could we slop and how could we find and reward that? like how could we find and reward that? like how could we find and reward that? like how could we reward the stuff that's real, which is reward the stuff that's real, which is reward the stuff that's real, which is different, you know, because even AI different, you know, because even AI different, you know, because even AI aside, standard attention-seeking social aside, standard attention-seeking social aside, standard attention-seeking social media algorithms will tend to kind of media algorithms will tend to kind of media algorithms will tend to kind of like sand off and homogenize things and like sand off and homogenize things and like sand off and homogenize things and find the things that kind of like find the things that kind of like find the things that kind of like >> best push certain base buttons or >> best push certain base buttons or >> best push certain base buttons or whatever. And the thing you're saying whatever. And the thing you're saying whatever. And the thing you're saying here is kind of like, okay, what's the here is kind of like, okay, what's the here is kind of like, okay, what's the thing we actually want? What's the thing thing we actually want? What's the thing thing we actually want? What's the thing that's deeply valuable? And can we get a that's deeply valuable? And can we get a that's deeply valuable? And can we get a stronger and more reliable stronger and more reliable stronger and more reliable signal of that as a benefit to the signal of that as a benefit to the signal of that as a benefit to the reader directly, but also to the also to reader directly, but also to the also to reader directly, but also to the also to the creator who wants to make those the creator who wants to make those the creator who wants to make those things and can feel like, hey, if I things and can feel like, hey, if I things and can feel like, hey, if I actually take the time to make something actually take the time to make something actually take the time to make something deeply thought out that kind of pushes deeply thought out that kind of pushes deeply thought out that kind of pushes the discourse forward, I'm not just the discourse forward, I'm not just the discourse forward, I'm not just going to get totally drowned out by going to get totally drowned out by going to get totally drowned out by 10,000 people writing clickbait stuff, 10,000 people writing clickbait stuff, 10,000 people writing clickbait stuff, >> whether they whether they use chat GPD >> whether they whether they use chat GPD >> whether they whether they use chat GPD for it or not.

for it or not. for it or not. which in turn increases confidence that which in turn increases confidence that which in turn increases confidence that this is a platform for that kind of this is a platform for that kind of this is a platform for that kind of work. Um, and this is a platform where work. Um, and this is a platform where work. Um, and this is a platform where that kind of work is highlighted and I that kind of work is highlighted and I that kind of work is highlighted and I think that produces a sort of positive think that produces a sort of positive think that produces a sort of positive feedback loop when you're looking for feedback loop when you're looking for feedback loop when you're looking for fresh voices and you want to find new fresh voices and you want to find new fresh voices and you want to find new perspectives etc. Uh, I think that would perspectives etc. Uh, I think that would perspectives etc. Uh, I think that would be really interesting. be really interesting. be really interesting. >> What do you think are some of the best >> What do you think are some of the best >> What do you think are some of the best signals of that? signals of that? signals of that? >> So >> So >> So I love that question. I think that the I love that question. I think that the I love that question. I think that the best best best the best signal that I've seen is you're the best signal that I've seen is you're the best signal that I've seen is you're looking for an ability to develop looking for an ability to develop looking for an ability to develop a coherent thought that acts like a a a coherent thought that acts like a a a coherent thought that acts like a a little bit like a virus. Like it's a net little bit like a virus. Like it's a net little bit like a virus. Like it's a net new thought. It causes you to pay new thought. It causes you to pay new thought. It causes you to pay attention to it. You can't get it out of attention to it. You can't get it out of attention to it. You can't get it out of your head. It sparks new connections your head. It sparks new connections your head. It sparks new connections here, there, and everywhere. Um, and I here, there, and everywhere. Um, and I here, there, and everywhere. Um, and I actually think that one of the good actually think that one of the good actually think that one of the good examples of this, uh, outside of examples of this, uh, outside of examples of this, uh, outside of Substack is Paul Graham's blog. And he Substack is Paul Graham's blog. And he Substack is Paul Graham's blog. And he just writes these things that when he just writes these things that when he just writes these things that when he writes them, they sort of stick in your writes them, they sort of stick in your writes them, they sort of stick in your head. Uh, Naval does this, too. And head. Uh, Naval does this, too. And head. Uh, Naval does this, too. And like, you just look at the world a like, you just look at the world a like, you just look at the world a little bit differently as a result. And little bit differently as a result. And little bit differently as a result. And I I'm hungry for more of that, right?

I I'm hungry for more of that, right? I I'm hungry for more of that, right? Because what I'm hungry for is Because what I'm hungry for is Because what I'm hungry for is challenging my own thinking, challenging challenging my own thinking, challenging challenging my own thinking, challenging my own assumptions, not making the same my own assumptions, not making the same my own assumptions, not making the same mistake twice, making sure that I read mistake twice, making sure that I read mistake twice, making sure that I read the world as it actually is and not the world as it actually is and not the world as it actually is and not necessarily as I want it to be. And necessarily as I want it to be. And necessarily as I want it to be. And those kinds of uh viral ideas are not those kinds of uh viral ideas are not those kinds of uh viral ideas are not always viral in the sense that they make always viral in the sense that they make always viral in the sense that they make it mainstream and the algorithm always it mainstream and the algorithm always it mainstream and the algorithm always rewards them, but they're viral in the rewards them, but they're viral in the rewards them, but they're viral in the sense that when you find a reader for sense that when you find a reader for sense that when you find a reader for them, them, them, >> they kind of stay in your head all day >> they kind of stay in your head all day >> they kind of stay in your head all day and they and you kind of can't get it and they and you kind of can't get it and they and you kind of can't get it out because it's so densely expressing a out because it's so densely expressing a out because it's so densely expressing a perspective that puts a uh fresh a fresh perspective that puts a uh fresh a fresh perspective that puts a uh fresh a fresh coat of paint a fresh sensibility on coat of paint a fresh sensibility on coat of paint a fresh sensibility on something that you may have stared at a something that you may have stared at a something that you may have stared at a thousand times, right? Like, and I think thousand times, right? Like, and I think thousand times, right? Like, and I think about this because I think one of the about this because I think one of the about this because I think one of the moments I had for this was actually from moments I had for this was actually from moments I had for this was actually from the anthropic uh engineering blog when the anthropic uh engineering blog when the anthropic uh engineering blog when they wrote about uh JSpace a couple of they wrote about uh JSpace a couple of they wrote about uh JSpace a couple of weeks ago. And I feel like that blog weeks ago. And I feel like that blog weeks ago. And I feel like that blog post post post got read and went viral in ways that I got read and went viral in ways that I got read and went viral in ways that I don't think were super relevant because don't think were super relevant because don't think were super relevant because it got sucked into the consciousness it got sucked into the consciousness it got sucked into the consciousness conversation.

conversation. conversation. >> Um, but to me the most interesting part >> Um, but to me the most interesting part >> Um, but to me the most interesting part of it was actually thinking about how of it was actually thinking about how of it was actually thinking about how brains work and how LLMs work as uh brains work and how LLMs work as uh brains work and how LLMs work as uh computational solutions to problem computational solutions to problem computational solutions to problem spaces. And essentially like very spaces. And essentially like very spaces. And essentially like very narrowly what they're suggesting is that narrowly what they're suggesting is that narrowly what they're suggesting is that it may be a natural evolved response to it may be a natural evolved response to it may be a natural evolved response to difficult problem spaces to use a difficult problem spaces to use a difficult problem spaces to use a workspace approach where you evolve workspace approach where you evolve workspace approach where you evolve essentially higher order bits of essentially higher order bits of essentially higher order bits of knowledge and compute with those bits of knowledge and compute with those bits of knowledge and compute with those bits of knowledge rather than the the sort of knowledge rather than the the sort of knowledge rather than the the sort of base tokens that you're working with. base tokens that you're working with. base tokens that you're working with. And that's also happens to be one of the And that's also happens to be one of the And that's also happens to be one of the sort of approaches to how people think sort of approaches to how people think sort of approaches to how people think we do consciousness. I I didn't think we do consciousness. I I didn't think we do consciousness. I I didn't think about the last time I took my last about the last time I took my last about the last time I took my last breath. It just seems to be working breath. It just seems to be working breath. It just seems to be working well. Um, and well. Um, and well. Um, and I found that really sticky, right? Like I found that really sticky, right? Like I found that really sticky, right? Like because that helped me to think about because that helped me to think about because that helped me to think about LLMs as essentially computing reality in LLMs as essentially computing reality in LLMs as essentially computing reality in ways that was emergent. And so I've just ways that was emergent. And so I've just ways that was emergent. And so I've just been kind of chewing on that ever since. been kind of chewing on that ever since. been kind of chewing on that ever since. And so that kind of a thing like it went And so that kind of a thing like it went And so that kind of a thing like it went viral. I think it went viral in a weird viral. I think it went viral in a weird viral. I think it went viral in a weird way, but I think the value was still way, but I think the value was still way, but I think the value was still there.

there. there. >> Right. You're almost looking for an >> Right. You're almost looking for an >> Right. You're almost looking for an indicator of how much the reader has indicator of how much the reader has indicator of how much the reader has changed. changed. changed. >> Yeah. like like did did this stick with >> Yeah. like like did did this stick with >> Yeah. like like did did this stick with me, right? Do do I find that this was me, right? Do do I find that this was me, right? Do do I find that this was impactful? impactful? impactful? >> It is also interesting too, you know, I >> It is also interesting too, you know, I >> It is also interesting too, you know, I think some people read the anti-slop think some people read the anti-slop think some people read the anti-slop stance as an anti- AI stance, stance as an anti- AI stance, stance as an anti- AI stance, >> but it is really interesting to me that >> but it is really interesting to me that >> but it is really interesting to me that you don't, you know, you don't see Sam you don't, you know, you don't see Sam you don't, you know, you don't see Sam Alman or Daario or the anthropic Alman or Daario or the anthropic Alman or Daario or the anthropic engineering blog posting posting claude engineering blog posting posting claude engineering blog posting posting claude slop. You see writing writing a lot of slop. You see writing writing a lot of slop. You see writing writing a lot of really thoughtful stuff. Um, and I think really thoughtful stuff. Um, and I think really thoughtful stuff. Um, and I think that's like illustrative that there is that's like illustrative that there is that's like illustrative that there is like a it's not it's not a question of like a it's not it's not a question of like a it's not it's not a question of um um um you don't have to be anti- AAI. In fact, you don't have to be anti- AAI. In fact, you don't have to be anti- AAI. In fact, I think anti-slop is a pro- AAI stance I think anti-slop is a pro- AAI stance I think anti-slop is a pro- AAI stance understood correctly in my mind. understood correctly in my mind. understood correctly in my mind. >> Yeah. Especially if you think of AI as >> Yeah. Especially if you think of AI as >> Yeah. Especially if you think of AI as something that we want to integrate into something that we want to integrate into something that we want to integrate into flourishing human societies, then being flourishing human societies, then being flourishing human societies, then being anti-SLO is something that is profoundly anti-SLO is something that is profoundly anti-SLO is something that is profoundly pro AI.

pro AI. pro AI. Yeah, I love that. So as as we look at Yeah, I love that. So as as we look at Yeah, I love that. So as as we look at that you so we look at this conversation that you so we look at this conversation that you so we look at this conversation a little bit I think one of the a little bit I think one of the a little bit I think one of the questions that I'm left with is questions that I'm left with is questions that I'm left with is do you do you do you feel like when you look at the creator feel like when you look at the creator feel like when you look at the creator community you look at Substack as a community you look at Substack as a community you look at Substack as a whole right now whole right now whole right now what is your sense of how what is your sense of how what is your sense of how creators are going to respond either to creators are going to respond either to creators are going to respond either to this initial foray with pangram or to this initial foray with pangram or to this initial foray with pangram or to the sort of larger conversation that you the sort of larger conversation that you the sort of larger conversation that you want to kick off here because this is want to kick off here because this is want to kick off here because this is very much as much as it's a dialogue very much as much as it's a dialogue very much as much as it's a dialogue among all of us creators, it's also a among all of us creators, it's also a among all of us creators, it's also a dialogue with Substack and I'm curious dialogue with Substack and I'm curious dialogue with Substack and I'm curious sort of how you how you anticipate that sort of how you how you anticipate that sort of how you how you anticipate that rolling. rolling. rolling. I guess, you know, my real hope is to I guess, you know, my real hope is to I guess, you know, my real hope is to help spark a conversation here um and to help spark a conversation here um and to help spark a conversation here um and to help kind of bring the topic into the help kind of bring the topic into the help kind of bring the topic into the open and and have this, you know, we can open and and have this, you know, we can open and and have this, you know, we can sit here and think about this at sit here and think about this at sit here and think about this at Substack all day, but there's this Substack all day, but there's this Substack all day, but there's this amazing community of people who are amazing community of people who are amazing community of people who are thinking about these things a lot and I thinking about these things a lot and I thinking about these things a lot and I kind of want to like get the that idea kind of want to like get the that idea kind of want to like get the that idea on it. You know, we have all on it. You know, we have all on it. You know, we have all perspectives on the platform. All the perspectives on the platform. All the perspectives on the platform. All the way from, you know, Sam Chris wrote a way from, you know, Sam Chris wrote a way from, you know, Sam Chris wrote a piece, the title of which was, "If you piece, the title of which was, "If you piece, the title of which was, "If you let AI do your writing, I will come to let AI do your writing, I will come to let AI do your writing, I will come to your house and kill you."

your house and kill you." your house and kill you." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> All the way to, you know, people like >> All the way to, you know, people like >> All the way to, you know, people like you and others who are kind of, you you and others who are kind of, you you and others who are kind of, you know, doing these like, frankly pushing know, doing these like, frankly pushing know, doing these like, frankly pushing the frontier of what's possible with the frontier of what's possible with the frontier of what's possible with these things. My hope is that we can start to My hope is that we can start to have a sense of like what the new norm have a sense of like what the new norm have a sense of like what the new norm should be and what the like what are the should be and what the like what are the should be and what the like what are the things that are actually going to solve things that are actually going to solve things that are actually going to solve for the underlying question of value um for the underlying question of value um for the underlying question of value um and how are we going to defend against and how are we going to defend against and how are we going to defend against the the cases where you know loweffort the the cases where you know loweffort the the cases where you know loweffort stuff threatens both human and stuff threatens both human and stuff threatens both human and thoughtful AI authorship. thoughtful AI authorship. thoughtful AI authorship. um you know what is what is the version um you know what is what is the version um you know what is what is the version of that that can sort of durably not of that that can sort of durably not of that that can sort of durably not just survive but like reinforce and help just survive but like reinforce and help just survive but like reinforce and help the help the real stuff win. Um that the help the real stuff win. Um that the help the real stuff win. Um that feels like the the end goal to me. feels like the the end goal to me. feels like the the end goal to me. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It's it's almost as if what we're It's it's almost as if what we're It's it's almost as if what we're looking for is that the conversation looking for is that the conversation looking for is that the conversation itself will be a inoculation against itself will be a inoculation against itself will be a inoculation against slop to some extent. And it will provoke slop to some extent. And it will provoke slop to some extent. And it will provoke a discourse that helps us to think a discourse that helps us to think a discourse that helps us to think across the the wide variation of across the the wide variation of across the the wide variation of anti-slop and to think frankly across anti-slop and to think frankly across anti-slop and to think frankly across the the the >> I would say significantly narrower >> I would say significantly narrower >> I would say significantly narrower distribution of slop because slop itself distribution of slop because slop itself distribution of slop because slop itself to me is a very boring concept. It's to me is a very boring concept. It's to me is a very boring concept. It's it's it's notoriously it's it's notoriously it's it's notoriously >> uh averaged out which is why Pangram can >> uh averaged out which is why Pangram can >> uh averaged out which is why Pangram can catch it.

catch it. catch it. >> And I do think the I do think the uh >> And I do think the I do think the uh >> And I do think the I do think the uh Pangram doesn't you know Pangram is Pangram doesn't you know Pangram is Pangram doesn't you know Pangram is there for the text but I do think the there for the text but I do think the there for the text but I do think the stance that a platform has does matter stance that a platform has does matter stance that a platform has does matter to some extent. Like it's interesting to some extent. Like it's interesting to some extent. Like it's interesting that LinkedIn has this. LinkedIn also that LinkedIn has this. LinkedIn also that LinkedIn has this. LinkedIn also has a feature where you can have AI has a feature where you can have AI has a feature where you can have AI write your stuff for you in the editor. write your stuff for you in the editor. write your stuff for you in the editor. >> Like there's kind of like oh don't don't >> Like there's kind of like oh don't don't >> Like there's kind of like oh don't don't want to bother thinking like click this want to bother thinking like click this want to bother thinking like click this button we'll do it for you. And I do button we'll do it for you. And I do button we'll do it for you. And I do think that there's kind of, you know, think that there's kind of, you know, think that there's kind of, you know, just setting a little bit of like how just setting a little bit of like how just setting a little bit of like how are we thinking about this? Which what are we thinking about this? Which what are we thinking about this? Which what do what are we actually standing for and do what are we actually standing for and do what are we actually standing for and caring about? Um, and what like what is caring about? Um, and what like what is caring about? Um, and what like what is the intent of the platform the intent of the platform the intent of the platform trying to trying to reward and trying to trying to trying to reward and trying to trying to trying to reward and trying to encourage? I do think it's not that that encourage? I do think it's not that that encourage? I do think it's not that that thing by itself solves everything, but I thing by itself solves everything, but I thing by itself solves everything, but I think it does contribute to the culture think it does contribute to the culture think it does contribute to the culture of a place in a way that can be kind of, of a place in a way that can be kind of, of a place in a way that can be kind of, you know, self-reinforcing and you know, self-reinforcing and you know, self-reinforcing and self-fulfilling. self-fulfilling. self-fulfilling. you know, we haven't talked about video you know, we haven't talked about video you know, we haven't talked about video much in this conversation, but I think much in this conversation, but I think much in this conversation, but I think there's two directions I'd be curious there's two directions I'd be curious there's two directions I'd be curious for your take on. Um, the first is I for your take on. Um, the first is I for your take on. Um, the first is I feel like the way Substack includes feel like the way Substack includes feel like the way Substack includes video video video helps as helps as helps as a guarantor of effort right now in the a guarantor of effort right now in the a guarantor of effort right now in the current state of AI. Uh, so when I current state of AI. Uh, so when I current state of AI. Uh, so when I produce a piece and I attach a video to produce a piece and I attach a video to produce a piece and I attach a video to the piece, that's me talking, right?

the piece, that's me talking, right? the piece, that's me talking, right? like I spent the time to sit there and like I spent the time to sit there and like I spent the time to sit there and talk and I and I said all those words talk and I and I said all those words talk and I and I said all those words and I thought about all of those things and I thought about all of those things and I thought about all of those things and when we look ahead and when we look ahead and when we look ahead I wonder if we're going to be having a I wonder if we're going to be having a I wonder if we're going to be having a similar conversation about video in a similar conversation about video in a similar conversation about video in a year or so where video is going to be year or so where video is going to be year or so where video is going to be good enough that someone who's saying a good enough that someone who's saying a good enough that someone who's saying a thousand blog posts make no mistakes can thousand blog posts make no mistakes can thousand blog posts make no mistakes can do you know 500 videos make no mistakes do you know 500 videos make no mistakes do you know 500 videos make no mistakes and they'll be able to get them and and they'll be able to get them and and they'll be able to get them and >> and if you look at stuff I forwarded by >> and if you look at stuff I forwarded by >> and if you look at stuff I forwarded by people of my parents' generation. We're people of my parents' generation. We're people of my parents' generation. We're already there for some fraction of the already there for some fraction of the already there for some fraction of the population. population. population. >> We are, especially for short form video, >> We are, especially for short form video, >> We are, especially for short form video, we're there. Um, and I and I look at we're there. Um, and I and I look at we're there. Um, and I and I look at that and I and I worry a little bit that and I and I worry a little bit that and I and I worry a little bit because I think that video has been so because I think that video has been so because I think that video has been so certainly as a creator, it's been a certainly as a creator, it's been a certainly as a creator, it's been a powerful way for me to connect with powerful way for me to connect with powerful way for me to connect with folks. I think this kind of a folks. I think this kind of a folks. I think this kind of a conversation is something that conversation is something that conversation is something that >> works really well on video. And sure, we >> works really well on video. And sure, we >> works really well on video. And sure, we can grab a a, you know, slightly cleaned can grab a a, you know, slightly cleaned can grab a a, you know, slightly cleaned up transcript of this and put it into an up transcript of this and put it into an up transcript of this and put it into an article, but it sings when we're talking article, but it sings when we're talking article, but it sings when we're talking because you can see the hands waving.

because you can see the hands waving. because you can see the hands waving. You can see the emphasis in the voice You can see the emphasis in the voice You can see the emphasis in the voice and our faces and all of that. And I and and our faces and all of that. And I and and our faces and all of that. And I and I wonder if we're going to be at a point I wonder if we're going to be at a point I wonder if we're going to be at a point where we want to be emphasizing that where we want to be emphasizing that where we want to be emphasizing that sort of human dynamism in video, too. sort of human dynamism in video, too. sort of human dynamism in video, too. >> Yeah, I think it'll be very interesting. >> Yeah, I think it'll be very interesting. >> Yeah, I think it'll be very interesting. And I think we'll we'll I think we'll And I think we'll we'll I think we'll And I think we'll we'll I think we'll need new norms around a bunch of this need new norms around a bunch of this need new norms around a bunch of this stuff, right? We'll need to norms where, stuff, right? We'll need to norms where, stuff, right? We'll need to norms where, you know, we never used to have a norm you know, we never used to have a norm you know, we never used to have a norm that says you don't have the AI text that says you don't have the AI text that says you don't have the AI text your wife for you because that was never your wife for you because that was never your wife for you because that was never a thing. And then the minute it becomes a thing. And then the minute it becomes a thing. And then the minute it becomes technologically possible, there's kind technologically possible, there's kind technologically possible, there's kind of this moment where it's like, of this moment where it's like, of this moment where it's like, >> oh, there's a norm for that. >> oh, there's a norm for that. >> oh, there's a norm for that. >> Like [laughter] >> Like [laughter] >> Like [laughter] be a norm for that. And like, you know, be a norm for that. And like, you know, be a norm for that. And like, you know, maybe it's like whatever. I can it can maybe it's like whatever. I can it can maybe it's like whatever. I can it can argue with the customer service person argue with the customer service person argue with the customer service person and that's great. But like, you know, if and that's great. But like, you know, if and that's great. But like, you know, if I found out right now that during this I found out right now that during this I found out right now that during this whole conversation you weren't really whole conversation you weren't really whole conversation you weren't really here and I'd been talking to your AI here and I'd been talking to your AI here and I'd been talking to your AI avatar avatar avatar >> the whole time, >> the whole time, >> the whole time, >> you would be upset. >> you would be upset. >> you would be upset. >> I would be upset. And it's not because >> I would be upset. And it's not because >> I would be upset. And it's not because it's not because I'm anti It's not it's not because I'm anti It's not it's not because I'm anti It's not because I'm anti- cool avatar. I'm just because I'm anti- cool avatar. I'm just because I'm anti- cool avatar. I'm just like that would be a that would be a like that would be a that would be a like that would be a that would be a mismatch of my expectation.

mismatch of my expectation. mismatch of my expectation. >> It would feel like a betrayal, right? >> It would feel like a betrayal, right? >> It would feel like a betrayal, right? Because you're trying to have a Because you're trying to have a Because you're trying to have a conversation with a person. conversation with a person. conversation with a person. >> Yeah. Have a conversation with a person. >> Yeah. Have a conversation with a person. >> Yeah. Have a conversation with a person. And it would feel like, you know, what I And it would feel like, you know, what I And it would feel like, you know, what I thought was like a mutual investment of thought was like a mutual investment of thought was like a mutual investment of effort and energy in these things turned effort and energy in these things turned effort and energy in these things turned out to be like, this is why I called I out to be like, this is why I called I out to be like, this is why I called I sort of think of this as the writing sort of think of this as the writing sort of think of this as the writing version of this as claude fishing by by version of this as claude fishing by by version of this as claude fishing by by analogy to catfishing where it's kind of analogy to catfishing where it's kind of analogy to catfishing where it's kind of like it's that the problem is not that like it's that the problem is not that like it's that the problem is not that you use the technology. The problem is you use the technology. The problem is you use the technology. The problem is that you like betrayed the betrayed the that you like betrayed the betrayed the that you like betrayed the betrayed the expectation. And I think the thing that expectation. And I think the thing that expectation. And I think the thing that we're kind of happening it's happening we're kind of happening it's happening we're kind of happening it's happening with writing, it's going to happen with with writing, it's going to happen with with writing, it's going to happen with video is we we have a bunch of video is we we have a bunch of video is we we have a bunch of expectations. We have a bunch of sort of expectations. We have a bunch of sort of expectations. We have a bunch of sort of like implicit philosophical beliefs that like implicit philosophical beliefs that like implicit philosophical beliefs that we don't realize we have because it's we don't realize we have because it's we don't realize we have because it's never come up before. Then all of a never come up before. Then all of a never come up before. Then all of a sudden it's going to sudden it's going to sudden it's going to >> the norm is challenged. >> the norm is challenged. >> the norm is challenged. >> The norm is challenged and then it's >> The norm is challenged and then it's >> The norm is challenged and then it's like, wait a minute, can you use Claude like, wait a minute, can you use Claude like, wait a minute, can you use Claude to text me? Can you use Claude to write to text me? Can you use Claude to write to text me? Can you use Claude to write a comment? Can you use Claude to have a a comment? Can you use Claude to have a a comment? Can you use Claude to have a video conversation with me? Like when is video conversation with me? Like when is video conversation with me? Like when is it okay? Do you have to tell me? like it okay? Do you have to tell me? like it okay? Do you have to tell me? like these are just I think they're going to these are just I think they're going to these are just I think they're going to they're going to have to be like they're going to have to be like they're going to have to be like cultural outputs and expectations these cultural outputs and expectations these cultural outputs and expectations these things through a process that I think is things through a process that I think is things through a process that I think is is quite hard to predict and I don't is quite hard to predict and I don't is quite hard to predict and I don't think the answer is going to be nobody think the answer is going to be nobody think the answer is going to be nobody ever uses AI to make video I think it's ever uses AI to make video I think it's ever uses AI to make video I think it's going to be a incredibly powerful tool going to be a incredibly powerful tool going to be a incredibly powerful tool in all kinds of ways and the thing we're in all kinds of ways and the thing we're in all kinds of ways and the thing we're going to have to find is kind of like going to have to find is kind of like going to have to find is kind of like what are the ways that remain valuable what are the ways that remain valuable what are the ways that remain valuable what as the people talk about Jevans what as the people talk about Jevans what as the people talk about Jevans paradox a lot but I also think a lot paradox a lot but I also think a lot paradox a lot but I also think a lot about um bal's cost effect. You know about um bal's cost effect. You know about um bal's cost effect. You know this thing?

this thing? this thing? >> Yes, I do. >> Yes, I do. >> Yes, I do. >> Where it's sort of like, okay, as as >> Where it's sort of like, okay, as as >> Where it's sort of like, okay, as as some things get much cheaper, what some things get much cheaper, what some things get much cheaper, what remains valuable? Like what's the remains valuable? Like what's the remains valuable? Like what's the equivalent of a string quartet? And how equivalent of a string quartet? And how equivalent of a string quartet? And how do we guarantee that the like how do we do we guarantee that the like how do we do we guarantee that the like how do we what are the norms that support those what are the norms that support those what are the norms that support those things existing and being findable and things existing and being findable and things existing and being findable and being supported so that you know that being supported so that you know that being supported so that you know that it's good to invest your time in them it's good to invest your time in them it's good to invest your time in them because you're getting some version of because you're getting some version of because you're getting some version of the real thing. I don't know the answer the real thing. I don't know the answer the real thing. I don't know the answer for video, but that feels to me like the for video, but that feels to me like the for video, but that feels to me like the right question. At least right question. At least right question. At least >> it it does. And I think it gets back to >> it it does. And I think it gets back to >> it it does. And I think it gets back to the heart of what we've been talking the heart of what we've been talking the heart of what we've been talking about, which is the idea that what's about, which is the idea that what's about, which is the idea that what's valuable in a world where, to Carpathy's valuable in a world where, to Carpathy's valuable in a world where, to Carpathy's point, 99% 99.9% of attention is AI. point, 99% 99.9% of attention is AI. point, 99% 99.9% of attention is AI. What's valuable is human attention. And What's valuable is human attention. And What's valuable is human attention. And what's non-inflationary is human what's non-inflationary is human what's non-inflationary is human attention. What is not susceptible to attention. What is not susceptible to attention. What is not susceptible to magical 10xing every year is human magical 10xing every year is human magical 10xing every year is human attention. And so how do we make sure attention. And so how do we make sure attention. And so how do we make sure that when the human has eyeballs on that when the human has eyeballs on that when the human has eyeballs on something it is worth the human paying something it is worth the human paying something it is worth the human paying attention? attention? attention? >> It's the last scarce resource. >> It's the last scarce resource. >> It's the last scarce resource. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> As a small discretion. This has kind of >> As a small discretion. This has kind of >> As a small discretion. This has kind of always been the theory of Substack and always been the theory of Substack and always been the theory of Substack and we thought about this. You know, one of we thought about this. You know, one of we thought about this. You know, one of my the story I tell myself about the my the story I tell myself about the my the story I tell myself about the early internet and social media is that early internet and social media is that early internet and social media is that it there used to like you used to be it there used to like you used to be it there used to like you used to be able to get bored.

able to get bored. able to get bored. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> There used to like when I was a kid, you >> There used to like when I was a kid, you >> There used to like when I was a kid, you could have this problem of like, man, I could have this problem of like, man, I could have this problem of like, man, I have two minutes right now and there's have two minutes right now and there's have two minutes right now and there's nothing to do. This sucks. And we've nothing to do. This sucks. And we've nothing to do. This sucks. And we've kind of like even before AI, kind of like even before AI, kind of like even before AI, we have solved that problem. we have solved that problem. we have solved that problem. >> Any time you spend, you know, and before >> Any time you spend, you know, and before >> Any time you spend, you know, and before it's like, oh, give me something free to it's like, oh, give me something free to it's like, oh, give me something free to kind of like slightly distract me. It's kind of like slightly distract me. It's kind of like slightly distract me. It's like, oh, that's a great deal because like, oh, that's a great deal because like, oh, that's a great deal because like I was bored and now I have like I was bored and now I have like I was bored and now I have something. And now we live in a world something. And now we live in a world something. And now we live in a world where every piece of my attention that I where every piece of my attention that I where every piece of my attention that I could possibly want to spend, I can could possibly want to spend, I can could possibly want to spend, I can spend. And the question is like, how do spend. And the question is like, how do spend. And the question is like, how do I spend it? Well, and that's a very deep I spend it? Well, and that's a very deep I spend it? Well, and that's a very deep question, question, question, >> but it's a worthwhile question because I >> but it's a worthwhile question because I >> but it's a worthwhile question because I think as a parent, that's what I think think as a parent, that's what I think think as a parent, that's what I think about for my kids is I as is I'm like, about for my kids is I as is I'm like, about for my kids is I as is I'm like, am I teaching them how to spend their am I teaching them how to spend their am I teaching them how to spend their attention well? Am I teaching them the attention well? Am I teaching them the attention well? Am I teaching them the habits? Am I modeling the habits of how habits? Am I modeling the habits of how habits? Am I modeling the habits of how to spend your attention well? uh that to spend your attention well? uh that to spend your attention well? uh that they can learn from and understand they can learn from and understand they can learn from and understand essentially what it means to be human by essentially what it means to be human by essentially what it means to be human by learning how we allocate attention learning how we allocate attention learning how we allocate attention toward one another in positive and toward one another in positive and toward one another in positive and constructive ways.

constructive ways. constructive ways. >> 100%. >> 100%. >> 100%. >> I think you'll see more in personal >> I think you'll see more in personal >> I think you'll see more in personal words. words. words. >> What's that? >> What's that? >> What's that? >> I was going to say any final words. >> I was going to say any final words. >> I was going to say any final words. >> Any final words? >> Any final words? >> Any final words? Um Um Um subscribe to my Substack. Check out the subscribe to my Substack. Check out the subscribe to my Substack. Check out the check out the new feature. [laughter] check out the new feature. [laughter] check out the new feature. [laughter] I always tell everyone else to plug I always tell everyone else to plug I always tell everyone else to plug their sub. I'm cv.substack.com. their sub. I'm cv.substack.com. their sub. I'm cv.substack.com. substack.com. I tell everyone to plug it substack.com. I tell everyone to plug it substack.com. I tell everyone to plug it plug theirs. So, I got to live up to plug theirs. So, I got to live up to plug theirs. So, I got to live up to that. that. that. >> You got to live up to it. I love that. I >> You got to live up to it. I love that. I >> You got to live up to it. I love that. I love that. Uh it's really been a love that. Uh it's really been a love that. Uh it's really been a pleasure, Chris. Uh and it's I think pleasure, Chris. Uh and it's I think pleasure, Chris. Uh and it's I think it's a really important conversation. it's a really important conversation. it's a really important conversation. And so my hope for this video is that And so my hope for this video is that And so my hope for this video is that this becomes something where folks who this becomes something where folks who this becomes something where folks who watch this video, we'll put it on watch this video, we'll put it on watch this video, we'll put it on YouTube, we'll put it on Substack of YouTube, we'll put it on Substack of YouTube, we'll put it on Substack of course, that we find a community of course, that we find a community of course, that we find a community of conversation around this topic, what it conversation around this topic, what it conversation around this topic, what it means to be anti-SLO in the age of AI means to be anti-SLO in the age of AI means to be anti-SLO in the age of AI and all the different ways that we can and all the different ways that we can and all the different ways that we can be anti-slop, what it means to take a be anti-slop, what it means to take a be anti-slop, what it means to take a stance in favor of the human discourse stance in favor of the human discourse stance in favor of the human discourse in a world where slop is is very in a world where slop is is very in a world where slop is is very prevalent. So I'm I'm excited. prevalent. So I'm I'm excited. prevalent. So I'm I'm excited. >> Fantastic. Thank you very much. This has >> Fantastic. Thank you very much. This has >> Fantastic. Thank you very much. This has been great.