EPISODE 25 - Scott and Mark Learn To... Level Up: Navigating Career Growth in Microsoft

Cool. All right. We had a plan for this Cool. All right. We had a plan for this one. I remember. Uh what was the plan? one. I remember. Uh what was the plan? one. I remember. Uh what was the plan? >> We didn't have a plan. >> We didn't have a plan. >> We didn't have a plan. >> I thought we had a plan because we said, >> I thought we had a plan because we said, >> I thought we had a plan because we said, "Oh, yeah. We'll just do we'll bang out "Oh, yeah. We'll just do we'll bang out "Oh, yeah. We'll just do we'll bang out a 30-minute show. We have an idea." And a 30-minute show. We have an idea." And a 30-minute show. We have an idea." And you you you >> That's as much of a plan as we had. >> That's as much of a plan as we had. >> That's as much of a plan as we had. >> That was the plan. [laughter] >> That was the plan. [laughter] >> That was the plan. [laughter] >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But I have uh thought about something >> But I have uh thought about something >> But I have uh thought about something that we could talk about. that we could talk about. that we could talk about. >> What do you got? The paper that we're >> What do you got? The paper that we're >> What do you got? The paper that we're doing. doing. doing. >> No. >> No. >> No. >> Oh, career stage. Career stages at >> Oh, career stage. Career stages at >> Oh, career stage. Career stages at Microsoft. developer path. Microsoft. developer path. Microsoft. developer path. >> I was on a live TikTok yesterday playing >> I was on a live TikTok yesterday playing >> I was on a live TikTok yesterday playing uh Hollow Night and someone said that uh Hollow Night and someone said that uh Hollow Night and someone said that they just got principal at Microsoft. they just got principal at Microsoft. they just got principal at Microsoft. Congratulations to that person. And they Congratulations to that person. And they Congratulations to that person. And they wanted to know like what they should do, wanted to know like what they should do, wanted to know like what they should do, like what their career stage progression like what their career stage progression like what their career stage progression should be and if the only way to move up should be and if the only way to move up should be and if the only way to move up was management. was management. was management. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Thoughts? >> Thoughts? >> Thoughts? >> I think the challenge is that people >> I think the challenge is that people >> I think the challenge is that people don't recognize there is luck. And I don't recognize there is luck. And I don't recognize there is luck. And I don't mean luck and like being called to don't mean luck and like being called to don't mean luck and like being called to serve and okay you're awesome here I'll serve and okay you're awesome here I'll serve and okay you're awesome here I'll promote you but like sometimes you get promote you but like sometimes you get promote you but like sometimes you get good projects sometimes you don't. good projects sometimes you don't. good projects sometimes you don't. Sometimes your projects get cancelceled Sometimes your projects get cancelceled Sometimes your projects get cancelceled and sometimes they don't. So I I and sometimes they don't. So I I and sometimes they don't. So I I acknowledge that there is like I hitched acknowledge that there is like I hitched acknowledge that there is like I hitched my wagon to net and there was some luck my wagon to net and there was some luck my wagon to net and there was some luck involved in that.

involved in that. involved in that. >> So I thought you were saying the problem >> So I thought you were saying the problem >> So I thought you were saying the problem with us talking about this is that but with us talking about this is that but with us talking about this is that but now you're just seems like that's a now you're just seems like that's a now you're just seems like that's a great thing to point to discuss if we great thing to point to discuss if we great thing to point to discuss if we >> let's do it. Let's do it. Career stages. >> let's do it. Let's do it. Career stages. >> let's do it. Let's do it. Career stages. No, but but you think it's cuz I said is No, but but you think it's cuz I said is No, but but you think it's cuz I said is what do you think of that topic and then what do you think of that topic and then what do you think of that topic and then you said well the problem is blah blah you said well the problem is blah blah you said well the problem is blah blah blah blah. blah blah. blah blah. >> Oh well I apologize. I always put >> Oh well I apologize. I always put >> Oh well I apologize. I always put everything as the problem is it is the everything as the problem is it is the everything as the problem is it is the challenge is that you want to give good challenge is that you want to give good challenge is that you want to give good advice this podcast when you talk to advice this podcast when you talk to advice this podcast when you talk to people but it it is advice is not a people but it it is advice is not a people but it it is advice is not a guarantee of success. guarantee of success. guarantee of success. >> That's the challenge like not everyone >> That's the challenge like not everyone >> That's the challenge like not everyone gets promoted and um that is gets promoted and um that is gets promoted and um that is challenging. There's a the myth of the challenging. There's a the myth of the challenging. There's a the myth of the meritocracy is a larger concept. meritocracy is a larger concept. meritocracy is a larger concept. >> Yeah. But I like the idea of career >> Yeah. But I like the idea of career >> Yeah. But I like the idea of career stages and within the context of the stages and within the context of the stages and within the context of the paper that we're doing that we're not paper that we're doing that we're not paper that we're doing that we're not going to talk about the idea of when going to talk about the idea of when going to talk about the idea of when does that feel feeling of seniorness does that feel feeling of seniorness does that feel feeling of seniorness happen and when does that feeling of I happen and when does that feeling of I happen and when does that feeling of I can now lead a team happen and I can now lead a team happen and I can now lead a team happen and I remember how I went through it in the remember how I went through it in the remember how I went through it in the '9s. So I still it still feels raw. '9s. So I still it still feels raw. '9s. So I still it still feels raw. >> Well so I think we have to lean on you >> Well so I think we have to lean on you >> Well so I think we have to lean on you because I had a very unorthodox path because I had a very unorthodox path because I had a very unorthodox path that that that >> you did.

>> you did. >> you did. >> Uh so I didn't go through career stages >> Uh so I didn't go through career stages >> Uh so I didn't go through career stages at Microsoft. I see them. I at Microsoft. I see them. I at Microsoft. I see them. I approve them. I nurture them. But I approve them. I nurture them. But I approve them. I nurture them. But I don't. [music] >> Have you pretty much been the same level >> Have you pretty much been the same level since you got acquired? since you got acquired? since you got acquired? >> I came in as a CVP. Yeah. As a T. >> I came in as a CVP. Yeah. As a T. >> I came in as a CVP. Yeah. As a T. >> That's a pretty sweet gig if you can get >> That's a pretty sweet gig if you can get >> That's a pretty sweet gig if you can get it. it. it. >> Yeah. So I came in at senior out of 63 >> Yeah. So I came in at senior out of 63 >> Yeah. So I came in at senior out of 63 um but it was 18 years ago and what's um but it was 18 years ago and what's um but it was 18 years ago and what's what I think is interesting about it is what I think is interesting about it is what I think is interesting about it is that I was the chief architect at a that I was the chief architect at a that I was the chief architect at a publicly traded company with 400 publicly traded company with 400 publicly traded company with 400 engineers and I came in as a 63. engineers and I came in as a 63. engineers and I came in as a 63. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And then people will tell you like well >> And then people will tell you like well >> And then people will tell you like well you came in for people who don't know my you came in for people who don't know my you came in for people who don't know my interview. interview. interview. >> What's that? >> What's that? >> What's that? >> You must have interviewed poorly >> You must have interviewed poorly >> You must have interviewed poorly >> probably. Yeah. I think it was probably >> probably. Yeah. I think it was probably >> probably. Yeah. I think it was probably when I when I went through you and Don when I when I went through you and Don when I when I went through you and Don Box and they were like this guy you know Box and they were like this guy you know Box and they were like this guy you know they dropped me a couple of they dropped me a couple of they dropped me a couple of >> Did I interview? No, you didn't >> Did I interview? No, you didn't >> Did I interview? No, you didn't interview. You didn't even remember. No, interview. You didn't even remember. No, interview. You didn't even remember. No, you did not. Um, you did not. Um, you did not. Um, but the um leveling is challenging and but the um leveling is challenging and but the um leveling is challenging and you can go to levels.fyi. It's a really you can go to levels.fyi. It's a really you can go to levels.fyi. It's a really great website where you can put stacks great website where you can put stacks great website where you can put stacks of levels and level ranges and level of levels and level ranges and level of levels and level ranges and level bands alongside Amazon and Meta and all bands alongside Amazon and Meta and all bands alongside Amazon and Meta and all the other tech companies and stuff like the other tech companies and stuff like the other tech companies and stuff like that. But like how does one indicate that. But like how does one indicate that. But like how does one indicate career stages? Now at Microsoft we have career stages? Now at Microsoft we have career stages? Now at Microsoft we have this website which is the career stage this website which is the career stage this website which is the career stage profiles website that actually describes profiles website that actually describes profiles website that actually describes how one solves problems at or one is

how one solves problems at or one is how one solves problems at or one is expected to solve problems at different expected to solve problems at different expected to solve problems at different levels and the level of independence levels and the level of independence levels and the level of independence that one has that one has that one has >> and I usually have thought about it in >> and I usually have thought about it in >> and I usually have thought about it in like a junior engineer does good work like a junior engineer does good work like a junior engineer does good work and a senior engineer helps junior and a senior engineer helps junior and a senior engineer helps junior engineers do good work and a principal engineers do good work and a principal engineers do good work and a principal level engineer helps the division do level engineer helps the division do level engineer helps the division do good work. partner level engineers set good work. partner level engineers set good work. partner level engineers set the tone, set the architecture for the the tone, set the architecture for the the tone, set the architecture for the larger division. So your scope increases larger division. So your scope increases larger division. So your scope increases the the the higher you get, but the the the higher you get, but the the the higher you get, but Microsoft and big tech in general make Microsoft and big tech in general make Microsoft and big tech in general make these moments, these kind of like these moments, these kind of like these moments, these kind of like artificial like, okay, you're moving artificial like, okay, you're moving artificial like, okay, you're moving from engineer 2 to senior from engineer 2 to senior from engineer 2 to senior and there's like the pregnant pause or and there's like the pregnant pause or and there's like the pregnant pause or you're moving to principal, which is you're moving to principal, which is you're moving to principal, which is largely considered like one of the largely considered like one of the largely considered like one of the biggest biggest promos that someone can biggest biggest promos that someone can biggest biggest promos that someone can get. I don't know if you're ready. Like get. I don't know if you're ready. Like get. I don't know if you're ready. Like these kind of weird squishy these kind of weird squishy these kind of weird squishy conversations can be really challenging. conversations can be really challenging. conversations can be really challenging. >> Well, I think that Well, I I mean, it >> Well, I think that Well, I I mean, it >> Well, I think that Well, I I mean, it sounds like what you're saying is sounds like what you're saying is sounds like what you're saying is there's really a gradual there's really a gradual there's really a gradual progression. progression. progression. >> 100%. >> 100%. >> 100%. >> But I don't think that's the case when >> But I don't think that's the case when >> But I don't think that's the case when it comes to being recognized with a it comes to being recognized with a it comes to being recognized with a promotion.

promotion. promotion. >> Okay, let's let's have that >> Okay, let's let's have that >> Okay, let's let's have that conversation. conversation. conversation. >> Well, like the like Partner is one of >> Well, like the like Partner is one of >> Well, like the like Partner is one of the, you know, most coveted bands to get the, you know, most coveted bands to get the, you know, most coveted bands to get into. It's it's for many people. It's a into. It's it's for many people. It's a into. It's it's for many people. It's a big deal. big deal. big deal. >> It's a small fraction of the company >> It's a small fraction of the company >> It's a small fraction of the company >> gets to partner level. >> gets to partner level. >> gets to partner level. >> And one of the defining properties of >> And one of the defining properties of >> And one of the defining properties of being a partner is that you're having being a partner is that you're having being a partner is that you're having broad scope influence. broad scope influence. broad scope influence. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And you mentioned um I think your levels >> And you mentioned um I think your levels >> And you mentioned um I think your levels of scope and influence were a little of scope and influence were a little of scope and influence were a little more aggressive than what I consider it. more aggressive than what I consider it. more aggressive than what I consider it. like partner I see is now you're working like partner I see is now you're working like partner I see is now you're working across your larger product group and across your larger product group and across your larger product group and likely interacting with other product likely interacting with other product likely interacting with other product groups to accomplish things. So you're groups to accomplish things. So you're groups to accomplish things. So you're starting to work across the company. starting to work across the company. starting to work across the company. >> Yep. Yeah. You're visible across >> Yep. Yeah. You're visible across >> Yep. Yeah. You're visible across divisions. You're bringing people divisions. You're bringing people divisions. You're bringing people together. You're seeing across divisions together. You're seeing across divisions together. You're seeing across divisions though. It doesn't necessarily have to though. It doesn't necessarily have to though. It doesn't necessarily have to be. It's just you show the ability to be. It's just you show the ability to be. It's just you show the ability to work from your silo across other teams work from your silo across other teams work from your silo across other teams that your silo interacts with that that your silo interacts with that that your silo interacts with that depends on and has to collaborate with depends on and has to collaborate with depends on and has to collaborate with or they depend on you or they depend on you or they depend on you >> to get things done.

>> to get things done. >> to get things done. >> Um that's just one of the like the the >> Um that's just one of the like the the >> Um that's just one of the like the the kind of simple definition of partner. kind of simple definition of partner. kind of simple definition of partner. But I I think that like you can continue But I I think that like you can continue But I I think that like you can continue to become a be a great developer and to become a be a great developer and to become a be a great developer and grow in skills and you know mentor grow in skills and you know mentor grow in skills and you know mentor people all but never get to that level people all but never get to that level people all but never get to that level because you're just a you don't have the because you're just a you don't have the because you're just a you don't have the opportunity to do it opportunity to do it opportunity to do it >> right. >> right. >> right. >> Um like you said um some of this is just >> Um like you said um some of this is just >> Um like you said um some of this is just luck and positioning yourself so that luck and positioning yourself so that luck and positioning yourself so that you do have the opportunities to to go you do have the opportunities to to go you do have the opportunities to to go to a next level. to a next level. to a next level. Um, and then there's also the Um, and then there's also the Um, and then there's also the IC route which is I'm just going to IC route which is I'm just going to IC route which is I'm just going to become the most awesome expert at the become the most awesome expert at the become the most awesome expert at the area that I'm in and it happens to be a area that I'm in and it happens to be a area that I'm in and it happens to be a very strategic area and there's very few very strategic area and there's very few very strategic area and there's very few experts and that is also a path to get experts and that is also a path to get experts and that is also a path to get to senior levels as a developer. to senior levels as a developer. to senior levels as a developer. >> Yep. Yep. >> Yep. Yep. >> Yep. Yep. >> Where you're not even necessarily >> Where you're not even necessarily >> Where you're not even necessarily running across, you know, other product running across, you know, other product running across, you know, other product groups or the division or the company, groups or the division or the company, groups or the division or the company, >> right? And if you're a developer, >> right? And if you're a developer, >> right? And if you're a developer, there's the I'm going to be a top 1% there's the I'm going to be a top 1% there's the I'm going to be a top 1% developer and I'm going to sling more developer and I'm going to sling more developer and I'm going to sling more code, faster code, better code, and code, faster code, better code, and code, faster code, better code, and invent new concepts, new ideas, new invent new concepts, new ideas, new invent new concepts, new ideas, new businesses businesses businesses as an individual contributor. And then as an individual contributor. And then as an individual contributor. And then there's the I am a developer, an there's the I am a developer, an there's the I am a developer, an engineering manager who is able to get engineering manager who is able to get engineering manager who is able to get large, you know, herd cats large, you know, herd cats large, you know, herd cats >> to to do same. Those are very different >> to to do same. Those are very different >> to to do same. Those are very different things like developer managers, things like developer managers, things like developer managers, engineering managers are very different engineering managers are very different engineering managers are very different than than than >> uh the like mythical 10x developer that >> uh the like mythical 10x developer that >> uh the like mythical 10x developer that I'm you know not a huge fan of that I'm you know not a huge fan of that I'm you know not a huge fan of that topic.

topic. topic. >> I also think it's important to know >> I also think it's important to know >> I also think it's important to know point out that just because you plateau point out that just because you plateau point out that just because you plateau at a level doesn't mean that you're at a level doesn't mean that you're at a level doesn't mean that you're failing. And we've got examples of failing. And we've got examples of failing. And we've got examples of people that are publicly known figures people that are publicly known figures people that are publicly known figures at Microsoft that have been here for 30 at Microsoft that have been here for 30 at Microsoft that have been here for 30 years years years >> that have plateaued in level, but >> that have plateaued in level, but >> that have plateaued in level, but they're still very productive and very they're still very productive and very they're still very productive and very impactful. impactful. impactful. It's just that they don't have the It's just that they don't have the It's just that they don't have the ambition to move to to take down that ambition to move to to take down that ambition to move to to take down that bigger scope. They're happy doing what bigger scope. They're happy doing what bigger scope. They're happy doing what they're doing. And so that's where they they're doing. And so that's where they they're doing. And so that's where they are. are. are. >> Yeah. And people ask them, they'll call >> Yeah. And people ask them, they'll call >> Yeah. And people ask them, they'll call that a terminal level. like principle is that a terminal level. like principle is that a terminal level. like principle is a perfectly reasonable terminal level a perfectly reasonable terminal level a perfectly reasonable terminal level [snorts] [snorts] [snorts] >> because the responsibility and like the >> because the responsibility and like the >> because the responsibility and like the uh the throat to choke who get who's the uh the throat to choke who get who's the uh the throat to choke who get who's the person that gets in trouble person that gets in trouble person that gets in trouble >> um when something goes wrong that >> um when something goes wrong that >> um when something goes wrong that happens to everybody. happens to everybody. happens to everybody. >> Yeah, it does. >> Yeah, it does. >> Yeah, it does. >> Uh when things when things happen when >> Uh when things when things happen when >> Uh when things when things happen when um when someone gets in trouble and like um when someone gets in trouble and like um when someone gets in trouble and like who's going to own that? Uh that happens who's going to own that? Uh that happens who's going to own that? Uh that happens at the at the higher levels and and and at the at the higher levels and and and at the at the higher levels and and and I've had situations where I've had to be I've had situations where I've had to be I've had situations where I've had to be the spokesperson or the the one who the spokesperson or the the one who the spokesperson or the the one who apologizes for stuff that a vendor did apologizes for stuff that a vendor did apologizes for stuff that a vendor did or something that had nothing to do with or something that had nothing to do with or something that had nothing to do with me, but I'm ultimately the one that set me, but I'm ultimately the one that set me, but I'm ultimately the one that set the system up.

the system up. the system up. >> Y >> Y >> Y >> that's an uncomfortable position and not >> that's an uncomfortable position and not >> that's an uncomfortable position and not everyone wants to do that. Some people everyone wants to do that. Some people everyone wants to do that. Some people just want to write some code and have just want to write some code and have just want to write some code and have have fun doing it. have fun doing it. have fun doing it. >> I think that one thing that doesn't get >> I think that one thing that doesn't get >> I think that one thing that doesn't get talked about enough is the level of the talked about enough is the level of the talked about enough is the level of the importance of communication. It's one importance of communication. It's one importance of communication. It's one thing to be a person who can write code thing to be a person who can write code thing to be a person who can write code and in and express intent to the and in and express intent to the and in and express intent to the computer accurately, computer accurately, computer accurately, but then also being to express intent to but then also being to express intent to but then also being to express intent to your co-workers in a way that makes your your co-workers in a way that makes your your co-workers in a way that makes your what you're trying to accomplish well what you're trying to accomplish well what you're trying to accomplish well understood. understood. understood. >> Well, we touched on this in our uh >> Well, we touched on this in our uh >> Well, we touched on this in our uh influence, right? influence, right? influence, right? >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. uh episode where if you're not able to uh episode where if you're not able to uh episode where if you're not able to communicate that's going to severely communicate that's going to severely communicate that's going to severely your effectiveness because you your effectiveness because you your effectiveness because you become a one-man shop as opposed to become a one-man shop as opposed to become a one-man shop as opposed to building on top of work of others and building on top of work of others and building on top of work of others and getting them to come along with you and getting them to come along with you and getting them to come along with you and contribute. contribute. contribute. >> Yeah. When when someone is doing work >> Yeah. When when someone is doing work >> Yeah. When when someone is doing work for you rather one person shop I should for you rather one person shop I should for you rather one person shop I should say say say >> one person shop indeed. when when you >> one person shop indeed. when when you >> one person shop indeed. when when you you you assign tasks, you speak clearly, you you assign tasks, you speak clearly, you you assign tasks, you speak clearly, you say, "I need the I need XYZ done." you say, "I need the I need XYZ done." you say, "I need the I need XYZ done." You give them a scope and a amount of You give them a scope and a amount of You give them a scope and a amount of time to get it done. How do you think time to get it done. How do you think time to get it done. How do you think about people who work for you and how about people who work for you and how about people who work for you and how they move through their careers? And they move through their careers? And they move through their careers? And when you say someone's ready to be when you say someone's ready to be when you say someone's ready to be promoed, is the promo a reward for doing promoed, is the promo a reward for doing promoed, is the promo a reward for doing something or for executing reliably something or for executing reliably something or for executing reliably >> end times? And N plus one means now you >> end times? And N plus one means now you >> end times? And N plus one means now you get promoted.

get promoted. get promoted. >> Yeah, this is kind of it's an art, not a >> Yeah, this is kind of it's an art, not a >> Yeah, this is kind of it's an art, not a science. deciding when somebody's ready science. deciding when somebody's ready science. deciding when somebody's ready >> and it also uh you have to have business >> and it also uh you have to have business >> and it also uh you have to have business need too. That's a key aspect of need too. That's a key aspect of need too. That's a key aspect of promotions at Microsoft. promotions at Microsoft. promotions at Microsoft. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Like does the role that they're in >> Like does the role that they're in >> Like does the role that they're in warrant that level warrant that level warrant that level uh in you know of seniority because it's uh in you know of seniority because it's uh in you know of seniority because it's tough to move somebody into a partner tough to move somebody into a partner tough to move somebody into a partner band if they're not in a role to execute band if they're not in a role to execute band if they're not in a role to execute at partner level. at partner level. at partner level. >> Yeah, totally agree. And I think that's >> Yeah, totally agree. And I think that's >> Yeah, totally agree. And I think that's something that people need to something that people need to something that people need to understand. Um I'll I'll make up a understand. Um I'll I'll make up a understand. Um I'll I'll make up a thing. I'm sure there's a person who thing. I'm sure there's a person who thing. I'm sure there's a person who owns this, but let's just pretend cuz I owns this, but let's just pretend cuz I owns this, but let's just pretend cuz I know the guy who used to own it. know the guy who used to own it. know the guy who used to own it. >> The volume control in Windows. So, >> The volume control in Windows. So, >> The volume control in Windows. So, you're the dev 2 or the PM2, which is a you're the dev 2 or the PM2, which is a you're the dev 2 or the PM2, which is a one level below senior, who owns the one level below senior, who owns the one level below senior, who owns the volume control and you're killing it and volume control and you're killing it and volume control and you're killing it and the audience loves it and it's reliable the audience loves it and it's reliable the audience loves it and it's reliable and it has zero crashes and it does what and it has zero crashes and it does what and it has zero crashes and it does what it needs to do. Great. Can that get you it needs to do. Great. Can that get you it needs to do. Great. Can that get you senior and principal and partner and VP? senior and principal and partner and VP? senior and principal and partner and VP? You're not going to be the VP of the You're not going to be the VP of the You're not going to be the VP of the volume control. Yeah, that's where you volume control. Yeah, that's where you volume control. Yeah, that's where you need to start looking laterally for need to start looking laterally for need to start looking laterally for additional scope. Maybe it's the audio additional scope. Maybe it's the audio additional scope. Maybe it's the audio subsystem. Maybe it's new innovative subsystem. Maybe it's new innovative subsystem. Maybe it's new innovative ways of thinking about inputs and ways of thinking about inputs and ways of thinking about inputs and outputs and uh softwarebased audio outputs and uh softwarebased audio outputs and uh softwarebased audio routing like what you have to go start routing like what you have to go start routing like what you have to go start looking for problems. Have you ever looking for problems. Have you ever looking for problems. Have you ever heard this idea that at the principal heard this idea that at the principal heard this idea that at the principal level you're looking for problems and level you're looking for problems and level you're looking for problems and bringing problems and solutions to bringing problems and solutions to bringing problems and solutions to management rather than waiting around management rather than waiting around management rather than waiting around for tasks?

for tasks? for tasks? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Good point on that one. Um, Yeah. Good point on that one. Um, Yeah. Good point on that one. Um, one of the questions that we you I'm one of the questions that we you I'm one of the questions that we you I'm sure you get a lot and actually you've sure you get a lot and actually you've sure you get a lot and actually you've had it because we've discussed it is had it because we've discussed it is had it because we've discussed it is >> IC's uh and those distinguished titles >> IC's uh and those distinguished titles >> IC's uh and those distinguished titles that we've got. that we've got. that we've got. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And what you need to do to get them do >> And what you need to do to get them do >> And what you need to do to get them do you need and you talked about this too you need and you talked about this too you need and you talked about this too to move up in levels of developer? Do to move up in levels of developer? Do to move up in levels of developer? Do you need to be a manager? [snorts] you need to be a manager? [snorts] you need to be a manager? [snorts] >> Well, we want to say no, you don't have >> Well, we want to say no, you don't have >> Well, we want to say no, you don't have to be a manager to raise and level at to be a manager to raise and level at to be a manager to raise and level at Microsoft. And we've got these Microsoft. And we've got these Microsoft. And we've got these distinguished titles that are distinguished titles that are distinguished titles that are specifically specifically specifically uh incent individual contributions at at uh incent individual contributions at at uh incent individual contributions at at the highest levels. Those are the highest levels. Those are the highest levels. Those are distinguished engineer and technical distinguished engineer and technical distinguished engineer and technical fellow. Not to say you can't get to fellow. Not to say you can't get to fellow. Not to say you can't get to those levels with a team, but it's hard those levels with a team, but it's hard those levels with a team, but it's hard because what we're looking for is because what we're looking for is because what we're looking for is individual innovation that has impact. individual innovation that has impact. individual innovation that has impact. And uh it's the one case where we don't And uh it's the one case where we don't And uh it's the one case where we don't you know we're we're focused on you know we're we're focused on you know we're we're focused on recognizing that individual talent um as recognizing that individual talent um as recognizing that individual talent um as opposed to you get rewarded a lot of opposed to you get rewarded a lot of opposed to you get rewarded a lot of times because you've done a great job times because you've done a great job times because you've done a great job with the team and you have other people with the team and you have other people with the team and you have other people saying you're doing a great job because saying you're doing a great job because saying you're doing a great job because you're helping everybody and that's you're helping everybody and that's you're helping everybody and that's generally a requirement to get promoted.

generally a requirement to get promoted. generally a requirement to get promoted. But in this special this these special But in this special this these special But in this special this these special cases, these distinctive titles actually cases, these distinctive titles actually cases, these distinctive titles actually we want to see the individual we want to see the individual we want to see the individual innovation. We want to see you being the innovation. We want to see you being the innovation. We want to see you being the leader, you being the thought leader, leader, you being the thought leader, leader, you being the thought leader, you being the hands-on person that made you being the hands-on person that made you being the hands-on person that made something happen. And that kind of ties something happen. And that kind of ties something happen. And that kind of ties with what you were talking about with what you were talking about with what you were talking about earlier, a question of do you need to earlier, a question of do you need to earlier, a question of do you need to actually do something to get a actually do something to get a actually do something to get a promotion? And I I'm sure you uh have promotion? And I I'm sure you uh have promotion? And I I'm sure you uh have had this and I'm curious to to hear any had this and I'm curious to to hear any had this and I'm curious to to hear any special cases where you're saying special cases where you're saying special cases where you're saying >> well you know you've done the last few >> well you know you've done the last few >> well you know you've done the last few years you've done solid work um you've years you've done solid work um you've years you've done solid work um you've gotten um above target impact in the gotten um above target impact in the gotten um above target impact in the work which means that you're excelling work which means that you're excelling work which means that you're excelling and they're saying okay so am I ready and they're saying okay so am I ready and they're saying okay so am I ready for promotion and you're like well this for promotion and you're like well this for promotion and you're like well this one project it will have huge impact and one project it will have huge impact and one project it will have huge impact and it's not quite there yet or we haven't it's not quite there yet or we haven't it's not quite there yet or we haven't quite seen the if it has the impact quite seen the if it has the impact quite seen the if it has the impact Um, and because one of the things that Um, and because one of the things that Um, and because one of the things that we're told is don't reward based on we're told is don't reward based on we're told is don't reward based on activity, reward based on action. So activity, reward based on action. So activity, reward based on action. So just because you shipped something, just because you shipped something, just because you shipped something, if that that that's uh a small factor in if that that that's uh a small factor in if that that that's uh a small factor in a promotion discussion, it's that thing a promotion discussion, it's that thing a promotion discussion, it's that thing you shipped, did it actually you shipped, did it actually you shipped, did it actually change things in a positive way? Did it change things in a positive way? Did it change things in a positive way? Did it generate more revenue? Did it raise generate more revenue? Did it raise generate more revenue? Did it raise customer satisfaction? Did it get customer satisfaction? Did it get customer satisfaction? Did it get Microsoft into more accounts? Uh Microsoft into more accounts? Uh Microsoft into more accounts? Uh that has to that that impact factor has that has to that that impact factor has that has to that that impact factor has to be there.

to be there. to be there. >> Yeah. And the expectations of impact >> Yeah. And the expectations of impact >> Yeah. And the expectations of impact factor increase as you get higher. Like factor increase as you get higher. Like factor increase as you get higher. Like I felt that I had a great year this year I felt that I had a great year this year I felt that I had a great year this year as all as an example. I did specific as all as an example. I did specific as all as an example. I did specific things. I had a list of tasks. They all things. I had a list of tasks. They all things. I had a list of tasks. They all got done. But at my level, they're like, got done. But at my level, they're like, got done. But at my level, they're like, "Yeah, "Yeah, "Yeah, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> do the thing. [laughter] >> do the thing. [laughter] >> do the thing. [laughter] >> You're doing a good job." So I'm like, >> You're doing a good job." So I'm like, >> You're doing a good job." So I'm like, man, why didn't I get man, why didn't I get man, why didn't I get >> why didn't I get exceeded expectations? >> why didn't I get exceeded expectations? >> why didn't I get exceeded expectations? It's because the expectations were high. It's because the expectations were high. It's because the expectations were high. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I did them. >> And I did them. >> And I did them. >> So it's challenging to exceed >> So it's challenging to exceed >> So it's challenging to exceed expectations the higher up you get. And expectations the higher up you get. And expectations the higher up you get. And we try to tell people that as they make we try to tell people that as they make we try to tell people that as they make those next level things is that it is a those next level things is that it is a those next level things is that it is a kind of uh and I don't like this word, kind of uh and I don't like this word, kind of uh and I don't like this word, but it's a co-opetition. There is there but it's a co-opetition. There is there but it's a co-opetition. There is there is implicit competition with your peers, is implicit competition with your peers, is implicit competition with your peers, but you're you're competing within this but you're you're competing within this but you're you're competing within this larger band. And when you know Anna and larger band. And when you know Anna and larger band. And when you know Anna and Bob are over here doing something Bob are over here doing something Bob are over here doing something revolutionary, they've launched a whole revolutionary, they've launched a whole revolutionary, they've launched a whole new product and it's it's on the front new product and it's it's on the front new product and it's it's on the front page of everything and everyone's page of everything and everyone's page of everything and everyone's talking about it, people can feel left talking about it, people can feel left talking about it, people can feel left behind if they're I don't know working behind if they're I don't know working behind if they're I don't know working on the volume control on Windows. So you on the volume control on Windows. So you on the volume control on Windows. So you have to look for innovation in your have to look for innovation in your have to look for innovation in your space to to balance out. Do do you think space to to balance out. Do do you think space to to balance out. Do do you think right now people are worried not just at right now people are worried not just at right now people are worried not just at Microsoft but everywhere that if it's Microsoft but everywhere that if it's Microsoft but everywhere that if it's not AI then I'm not going to get not AI then I'm not going to get not AI then I'm not going to get promoted?

promoted? promoted? >> I don't see that actually. >> I don't see that actually. >> I don't see that actually. >> You don't see that? I think people would >> You don't see that? I think people would >> You don't see that? I think people would say conventional wisdom is if you're not say conventional wisdom is if you're not say conventional wisdom is if you're not doing that then that's a problem. But I doing that then that's a problem. But I doing that then that's a problem. But I think think think >> engineering fundamentals, security >> engineering fundamentals, security >> engineering fundamentals, security fundamentals, tips, stability and fundamentals, tips, stability and fundamentals, tips, stability and reliability are just as important and reliability are just as important and reliability are just as important and people should be rewarded for that as people should be rewarded for that as people should be rewarded for that as well. well. well. >> Not just as important. What's the number >> Not just as important. What's the number >> Not just as important. What's the number one priority for Microsoft? one priority for Microsoft? one priority for Microsoft? >> Security. >> Security. >> Security. >> What's number two? >> What's number two? >> What's number two? >> Uh reliability. >> Uh reliability. >> Uh reliability. >> Yeah. Number [snorts] three. >> Yeah. Number [snorts] three. >> Yeah. Number [snorts] three. >> Uh >> Uh >> Uh I don't know. Number three. I was I don't know. Number three. I was I don't know. Number three. I was [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> maybe I was fourth. >> maybe I was fourth. >> maybe I was fourth. >> Yeah. I think it's challenging because >> Yeah. I think it's challenging because >> Yeah. I think it's challenging because you don't see things on the front page you don't see things on the front page you don't see things on the front page of whatever magazine security and of whatever magazine security and of whatever magazine security and reliability like it's all about AI. But reliability like it's all about AI. But reliability like it's all about AI. But you're absolutely right. I'm glad I got you're absolutely right. I'm glad I got you're absolutely right. I'm glad I got those right. those right. those right. >> Yeah, that was good. I was I'm >> Yeah, that was good. I was I'm >> Yeah, that was good. I was I'm impressed. impressed. impressed. >> Could have gone badly for me. >> Could have gone badly for me. >> Could have gone badly for me. >> So So it could have really badly. I >> So So it could have really badly. I >> So So it could have really badly. I would embarrass public embarrassment and would embarrass public embarrassment and would embarrass public embarrassment and shaming. shaming. shaming. >> Oh yeah. And more than usual. >> Oh yeah. And more than usual. >> Oh yeah. And more than usual. >> Yeah. Um so you touched on the hey do I >> Yeah. Um so you touched on the hey do I >> Yeah. Um so you touched on the hey do I need to manage to to to rise in level as need to manage to to to rise in level as need to manage to to to rise in level as a developer? And I I get asked this all a developer? And I I get asked this all a developer? And I I get asked this all the time. I'm sure you do too. And you the time. I'm sure you do too. And you the time. I'm sure you do too. And you probably asked it easy. You rose up probably asked it easy. You rose up probably asked it easy. You rose up through Microsoft.

through Microsoft. through Microsoft. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> The and I see it as a trade-off like if >> The and I see it as a trade-off like if >> The and I see it as a trade-off like if you manage you can actually influ, you you manage you can actually influ, you you manage you can actually influ, you know, you've got direct influence as know, you've got direct influence as know, you've got direct influence as opposed to indirect influence that we opposed to indirect influence that we opposed to indirect influence that we talked about before. or if you're an IC, talked about before. or if you're an IC, talked about before. or if you're an IC, an IC, you're indirectly influencing, an IC, you're indirectly influencing, an IC, you're indirectly influencing, >> but you get to remain >> but you get to remain >> but you get to remain >> almost purely technical um and hands-on >> almost purely technical um and hands-on >> almost purely technical um and hands-on in a way that as you're growing in in a way that as you're growing in in a way that as you're growing in seniority in the management track, you seniority in the management track, you seniority in the management track, you you can't you can't you can't um and so like I said, we want to um and so like I said, we want to um and so like I said, we want to encourage people to stay senior encourage people to stay senior encourage people to stay senior developers to stay focused on senior developers to stay focused on senior developers to stay focused on senior architecture and senior implementation. architecture and senior implementation. architecture and senior implementation. And so we've got these titles to show And so we've got these titles to show And so we've got these titles to show that Microsoft recognizes the value of that Microsoft recognizes the value of that Microsoft recognizes the value of that and wants to encourage it. that and wants to encourage it. that and wants to encourage it. >> And like I said, those are distinguished >> And like I said, those are distinguished >> And like I said, those are distinguished engineer and technical fellow. By the engineer and technical fellow. By the engineer and technical fellow. By the way, David Fowler just published a way, David Fowler just published a way, David Fowler just published a YouTube video uh uh interview. YouTube video uh uh interview. YouTube video uh uh interview. >> Oh, interviewed. Yeah. >> Oh, interviewed. Yeah. >> Oh, interviewed. Yeah. >> Yeah. He got interviewed and he's a >> Yeah. He got interviewed and he's a >> Yeah. He got interviewed and he's a distinguished engineer and he talks distinguished engineer and he talks distinguished engineer and he talks about his career growth at Microsoft and about his career growth at Microsoft and about his career growth at Microsoft and he's he's he's >> an IC. It was a great interview because >> an IC. It was a great interview because >> an IC. It was a great interview because he touches on a lot of these things that he touches on a lot of these things that he touches on a lot of these things that we're talking about we're talking about we're talking about >> and he came as what's significant about >> and he came as what's significant about >> and he came as what's significant about David Fowler is he came directly out of David Fowler is he came directly out of David Fowler is he came directly out of college as a level 59 and as an intern.

college as a level 59 and as an intern. college as a level 59 and as an intern. So he has seen everything and has So he has seen everything and has So he has seen everything and has experienced it. And it's also worth experienced it. And it's also worth experienced it. And it's also worth noting maybe you can speak to this noting maybe you can speak to this noting maybe you can speak to this because he is a he is or maybe began the because he is a he is or maybe began the because he is a he is or maybe began the first the new generation of first the new generation of first the new generation of distinguished engineer because as I distinguished engineer because as I distinguished engineer because as I understand it a lot of distinguished understand it a lot of distinguished understand it a lot of distinguished engineers were um like somewhat academic engineers were um like somewhat academic engineers were um like somewhat academic or they would ship a thing but also or they would ship a thing but also or they would ship a thing but also publish a paper on a thing but David is publish a paper on a thing but David is publish a paper on a thing but David is not known for publishing academic not known for publishing academic not known for publishing academic papers. His work is in the open source papers. His work is in the open source papers. His work is in the open source space. So um I came in as a technical space. So um I came in as a technical space. So um I came in as a technical fellow and and so saw what the titling fellow and and so saw what the titling fellow and and so saw what the titling criteria was back in 2006 and have seen criteria was back in 2006 and have seen criteria was back in 2006 and have seen it evolve over time and then was part of it evolve over time and then was part of it evolve over time and then was part of the reboot of it in like 2018 2017 the reboot of it in like 2018 2017 the reboot of it in like 2018 2017 >> where Satcha and Kevin Scott said hey we >> where Satcha and Kevin Scott said hey we >> where Satcha and Kevin Scott said hey we want to refine what it means to get want to refine what it means to get want to refine what it means to get these titles. So I was part of coming up these titles. So I was part of coming up these titles. So I was part of coming up with the new definition and now I'm on with the new definition and now I'm on with the new definition and now I'm on what's the the custodian what's the the custodian what's the the custodian uh I'm one of the custodians for the uh I'm one of the custodians for the uh I'm one of the custodians for the titles. So me and several other TFs from titles. So me and several other TFs from titles. So me and several other TFs from across the company uh evaluate the across the company uh evaluate the across the company uh evaluate the nominations and make recommendations to nominations and make recommendations to nominations and make recommendations to Kevin to approve them or decline them.

Kevin to approve them or decline them. Kevin to approve them or decline them. And um And um And um one of the things that we saw in was one of the things that we saw in was one of the things that we saw in was happening in the early days of Microsoft happening in the early days of Microsoft happening in the early days of Microsoft is it was very much you're an engineer, is it was very much you're an engineer, is it was very much you're an engineer, you're a 10, we don't like the term 10x, you're a 10, we don't like the term 10x, you're a 10, we don't like the term 10x, but you're effectively a super high but you're effectively a super high but you're effectively a super high highly productive engineer highly productive engineer highly productive engineer >> providing a lot of impact and value. And >> providing a lot of impact and value. And >> providing a lot of impact and value. And so we'll recognize you as the so we'll recognize you as the so we'll recognize you as the distinguished engineer title or the distinguished engineer title or the distinguished engineer title or the technical fellow title, which typically technical fellow title, which typically technical fellow title, which typically meant you're having just enormous like meant you're having just enormous like meant you're having just enormous like you're a core part of defining what you're a core part of defining what you're a core part of defining what Windows is and you're you're kind of Windows is and you're you're kind of Windows is and you're you're kind of >> um very unique in the value that you're >> um very unique in the value that you're >> um very unique in the value that you're providing for product. providing for product. providing for product. >> For context, there's how many DES and >> For context, there's how many DES and >> For context, there's how many DES and TFS? TFS? TFS? >> There's like 12 TFS and like 50DE. >> There's like 12 TFS and like 50DE. >> There's like 12 TFS and like 50DE. >> No. Uh no, it's more significantly more >> No. Uh no, it's more significantly more >> No. Uh no, it's more significantly more than that now. Um, so there's probably than that now. Um, so there's probably than that now. Um, so there's probably 35ish uh TFS and probably 50 DES 35ish uh TFS and probably 50 DES 35ish uh TFS and probably 50 DES >> out of two or 300,000 employees. So it's >> out of two or 300,000 employees. So it's >> out of two or 300,000 employees. So it's pretty lofty. It's a couple orders of pretty lofty. It's a couple orders of pretty lofty. It's a couple orders of magnitude. magnitude. magnitude. >> Um, but when the with the reboot, what >> Um, but when the with the reboot, what >> Um, but when the with the reboot, what they wanted to say is like I described they wanted to say is like I described they wanted to say is like I described it, focus on individual innovation and it, focus on individual innovation and it, focus on individual innovation and impact. So did you if and and we see all impact. So did you if and and we see all impact. So did you if and and we see all forms of this. Again, it's not it's not forms of this. Again, it's not it's not forms of this. Again, it's not it's not a science, it's an art to say is that a science, it's an art to say is that a science, it's an art to say is that the case? Um, and they for somebody like the case? Um, and they for somebody like the case? Um, and they for somebody like David Fowler, he came up with SignalR.

David Fowler, he came up with SignalR. David Fowler, he came up with SignalR. He's come up, he's worked on.NET, he's He's come up, he's worked on.NET, he's He's come up, he's worked on.NET, he's done a lot of impactful things that done a lot of impactful things that done a lot of impactful things that didn't weren't academic publications. didn't weren't academic publications. didn't weren't academic publications. Um, but hugely impactful to the Um, but hugely impactful to the Um, but hugely impactful to the developer division and our uh developer division and our uh developer division and our uh application platform and shows just application platform and shows just application platform and shows just innovation and creativity and he gets innovation and creativity and he gets innovation and creativity and he gets things done and you know clears the things done and you know clears the things done and you know clears the obstacles and does it and uh has just obstacles and does it and uh has just obstacles and does it and uh has just been working at it that way for a long been working at it that way for a long been working at it that way for a long time. a sustained impact. time. a sustained impact. time. a sustained impact. >> So those kinds of factors and you know >> So those kinds of factors and you know >> So those kinds of factors and you know he gets great he gets great he gets great uh recommendations from other people, uh recommendations from other people, uh recommendations from other people, referrals from other people that say referrals from other people that say referrals from other people that say he's a great person to work with and we he's a great person to work with and we he's a great person to work with and we love him and he's had huge impact. That love him and he's had huge impact. That love him and he's had huge impact. That kind of all rolls up and uh yeah then we kind of all rolls up and uh yeah then we kind of all rolls up and uh yeah then we have people that are um that more have people that are um that more have people that are um that more academic. They make a contribution in academic. They make a contribution in academic. They make a contribution in some much more narrow way. Kind of some much more narrow way. Kind of some much more narrow way. Kind of interesting thing is that uh Leslie interesting thing is that uh Leslie interesting thing is that uh Leslie Lamport. Lamport. Lamport. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And you a lot of people probably >> And you a lot of people probably >> And you a lot of people probably recognize that name. He's come up with recognize that name. He's come up with recognize that name. He's come up with uh one of the most fundamental uh one of the most fundamental uh one of the most fundamental concurrency protocols concurrency protocols concurrency protocols uh um for uh and uh logical clocks uh um for uh and uh logical clocks uh um for uh and uh logical clocks synchronization. He's had just monstrous synchronization. He's had just monstrous synchronization. He's had just monstrous impact on the industry so much that he impact on the industry so much that he impact on the industry so much that he was awarded a touring prize touring was awarded a touring prize touring was awarded a touring prize touring world.

world. world. >> And he's been doing this since like the >> And he's been doing this since like the >> And he's been doing this since like the late 1960s. I had him on my uh podcast. late 1960s. I had him on my uh podcast. late 1960s. I had him on my uh podcast. >> Oh yeah. He's an ACM fellow. >> Oh yeah. He's an ACM fellow. >> Oh yeah. He's an ACM fellow. >> Yeah. And he um he actually retired from >> Yeah. And he um he actually retired from >> Yeah. And he um he actually retired from Microsoft about a year ago now. Microsoft about a year ago now. Microsoft about a year ago now. >> Mhm. But he retired as a distinguished >> Mhm. But he retired as a distinguished >> Mhm. But he retired as a distinguished engineer, not even a technical fellow. engineer, not even a technical fellow. engineer, not even a technical fellow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Uh and it's because >> Uh and it's because >> Uh and it's because >> respectful. >> respectful. >> respectful. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Yeah. [laughter] But I'm just want to point out that um But I'm just want to point out that um But I'm just want to point out that um it's it's more it's a bunch of factors it's it's more it's a bunch of factors it's it's more it's a bunch of factors like how much did it directly impact like how much did it directly impact like how much did it directly impact Microsoft? How much of that innovation Microsoft? How much of that innovation Microsoft? How much of that innovation was at Microsoft while he was here? was at Microsoft while he was here? was at Microsoft while he was here? >> That's a valid point. Well, he's a >> That's a valid point. Well, he's a >> That's a valid point. Well, he's a technical fellow from the ACM, the technical fellow from the ACM, the technical fellow from the ACM, the associate of computing machinery associate of computing machinery associate of computing machinery perspective, but at Microsoft maybe he perspective, but at Microsoft maybe he perspective, but at Microsoft maybe he didn't ship something in Windows. And didn't ship something in Windows. And didn't ship something in Windows. And you know that I have always had an you know that I have always had an you know that I have always had an aspiration to end my career with the aspiration to end my career with the aspiration to end my career with the title distinguished engineer. But my title distinguished engineer. But my title distinguished engineer. But my challenge is that I am not in the challenge is that I am not in the challenge is that I am not in the engineering track. I'm a technical uh engineering track. I'm a technical uh engineering track. I'm a technical uh program manager. So I would need to program manager. So I would need to program manager. So I would need to switch tracks and invent something or do switch tracks and invent something or do switch tracks and invent something or do something or dramatically change in something or dramatically change in something or dramatically change in order to get that that moniker. Even order to get that that moniker. Even order to get that that moniker. Even though my level is the same from a HR though my level is the same from a HR though my level is the same from a HR perspective, this is a special thing for perspective, this is a special thing for perspective, this is a special thing for people of a certain track to have. It's people of a certain track to have. It's people of a certain track to have. It's quite unique.

quite unique. quite unique. >> Yeah. and even people in that track, you >> Yeah. and even people in that track, you >> Yeah. and even people in that track, you know, it's not like everybody in the know, it's not like everybody in the know, it's not like everybody in the track gets it, right? Um it's something track gets it, right? Um it's something track gets it, right? Um it's something to aspire to. to aspire to. to aspire to. >> Yeah, indeed. And one of the things that >> Yeah, indeed. And one of the things that >> Yeah, indeed. And one of the things that I think um we struggled with was the I think um we struggled with was the I think um we struggled with was the change this this uh reboot which we change this this uh reboot which we change this this uh reboot which we still feel today even from people that still feel today even from people that still feel today even from people that are familiar with the old way of doing are familiar with the old way of doing are familiar with the old way of doing things at Microsoft the old way these things at Microsoft the old way these things at Microsoft the old way these titles were awarded which is you could titles were awarded which is you could titles were awarded which is you could have a a senior person who's technical have a a senior person who's technical have a a senior person who's technical who's running a large org and that org who's running a large org and that org who's running a large org and that org is shipping great product and has is shipping great product and has is shipping great product and has innovations in it. This person is seen innovations in it. This person is seen innovations in it. This person is seen as a very technical manager. He this as a very technical manager. He this as a very technical manager. He this person can get down into this the guts person can get down into this the guts person can get down into this the guts of an architecture and actually point of an architecture and actually point of an architecture and actually point things out and make recommendations and things out and make recommendations and things out and make recommendations and and might even have be direct directly and might even have be direct directly and might even have be direct directly hands-on with it. Yet that's not and and hands-on with it. Yet that's not and and hands-on with it. Yet that's not and and in the past that would have been that's in the past that would have been that's in the past that would have been that's a distinguished engineer when they got a distinguished engineer when they got a distinguished engineer when they got to the right level. Um and these are to the right level. Um and these are to the right level. Um and these are tied basically as as having minimum tied basically as as having minimum tied basically as as having minimum levels for the title meaning you've had levels for the title meaning you've had levels for the title meaning you've had this kind of impact you would have been this kind of impact you would have been this kind of impact you would have been at that level for the impact itself. Now at that level for the impact itself. Now at that level for the impact itself. Now this title is coming on top as this title is coming on top as this title is coming on top as recognizing these special individual recognizing these special individual recognizing these special individual innovation. They would have been in the innovation. They would have been in the innovation. They would have been in the past at Microsoft before the reboot of past at Microsoft before the reboot of past at Microsoft before the reboot of the titling been awarded these titles of the titling been awarded these titles of the titling been awarded these titles of DE or TF because of that deep technical DE or TF because of that deep technical DE or TF because of that deep technical management and that's no longer the management and that's no longer the management and that's no longer the case. Now that person well you're case. Now that person well you're case. Now that person well you're getting rewarded through their promotion getting rewarded through their promotion getting rewarded through their promotion to uh level 70 VP um or level 80. And by

to uh level 70 VP um or level 80. And by to uh level 70 VP um or level 80. And by the way, the VP title came out of our the way, the VP title came out of our the way, the VP title came out of our reboot because we said, "Hey, a lot of reboot because we said, "Hey, a lot of reboot because we said, "Hey, a lot of uh developers uh developers uh developers like they go for DE because that's like they go for DE because that's like they go for DE because that's visible. It's and otherwise the visible. It's and otherwise the visible. It's and otherwise the promotion to level 70 is not visible promotion to level 70 is not visible promotion to level 70 is not visible uh wasn't visible." And so it's um we uh wasn't visible." And so it's um we uh wasn't visible." And so it's um we decided to just make that formally decided to just make that formally decided to just make that formally visible that level level 70 as the VP visible that level level 70 as the VP visible that level level 70 as the VP level level level uh to release the pressure on oh I've uh to release the pressure on oh I've uh to release the pressure on oh I've got to have DE because I want people to got to have DE because I want people to got to have DE because I want people to know that I'm know that I'm know that I'm >> right that I'm at that level. >> right that I'm at that level. >> right that I'm at that level. >> How do you maybe this is too spicy for >> How do you maybe this is too spicy for >> How do you maybe this is too spicy for the podcast as we get towards the end the podcast as we get towards the end the podcast as we get towards the end here but like how does one prevent here but like how does one prevent here but like how does one prevent people feeling like promotions or titles people feeling like promotions or titles people feeling like promotions or titles or both are popularity contests? It's or both are popularity contests? It's or both are popularity contests? It's like cuz you when you rebooted this, you like cuz you when you rebooted this, you like cuz you when you rebooted this, you needed to come up with a way to express needed to come up with a way to express needed to come up with a way to express that this is not uh oh, that person that this is not uh oh, that person that this is not uh oh, that person seems cool. Let's promote them. It's got seems cool. Let's promote them. It's got seems cool. Let's promote them. It's got to be, you know, quantifiable. to be, you know, quantifiable. to be, you know, quantifiable. >> Well, one of the things that we do um is >> Well, one of the things that we do um is >> Well, one of the things that we do um is look for as much objective evidence as look for as much objective evidence as look for as much objective evidence as possible that they're having that impact possible that they're having that impact possible that they're having that impact themselves. And there's some examples of themselves. And there's some examples of themselves. And there's some examples of of materials that not everybody has, but of materials that not everybody has, but of materials that not everybody has, but but are great supporting materials for but are great supporting materials for but are great supporting materials for making a case. this person has had making a case. this person has had making a case. this person has had individual technical innovation and individual technical innovation and individual technical innovation and impact with it is uh patents, impact with it is uh patents, impact with it is uh patents, research papers, research papers, research papers, uh individ uh internal architecture doc uh individ uh internal architecture doc uh individ uh internal architecture doc documents that they've prime and and documents that they've prime and and documents that they've prime and and we're looking for primary authorship on we're looking for primary authorship on we're looking for primary authorship on them. You know, not like you're part of them. You know, not like you're part of them. You know, not like you're part of a team. Mhm.

a team. Mhm. a team. Mhm. >> Um and you're one of 10 people that did >> Um and you're one of 10 people that did >> Um and you're one of 10 people that did that um that did that patent or did that that um that did that patent or did that that um that did that patent or did that you know we want to see hey your name you know we want to see hey your name you know we want to see hey your name was first on a lot of them that that was first on a lot of them that that was first on a lot of them that that it's really you um and the other one is it's really you um and the other one is it's really you um and the other one is uh recommend references from other uh recommend references from other uh recommend references from other experts in the domain that you're experts in the domain that you're experts in the domain that you're working in. So typically uh DE or TF is working in. So typically uh DE or TF is working in. So typically uh DE or TF is very specialized in some area like hey I very specialized in some area like hey I very specialized in some area like hey I know know know uh I know the Azure infrastructure I uh I know the Azure infrastructure I uh I know the Azure infrastructure I know um the hypervisor. Um so we've had know um the hypervisor. Um so we've had know um the hypervisor. Um so we've had TE's and TFS promoted off of TE's and TFS promoted off of TE's and TFS promoted off of contributions to the hypervisor and the contributions to the hypervisor and the contributions to the hypervisor and the Windows kernel. So we're looking for Windows kernel. So we're looking for Windows kernel. So we're looking for other people that are in that area that other people that are in that area that other people that are in that area that are like yeah that person they're the are like yeah that person they're the are like yeah that person they're the ones that came up with those ideas. ones that came up with those ideas. ones that came up with those ideas. They're the ones that have made these They're the ones that have made these They're the ones that have made these contributions. So it's a lot and and you contributions. So it's a lot and and you contributions. So it's a lot and and you might say that's popularity contest but might say that's popularity contest but might say that's popularity contest but it's again a a looking at all of this m it's again a a looking at all of this m it's again a a looking at all of this m material together to try to get as material together to try to get as material together to try to get as objective like ideally this would just objective like ideally this would just objective like ideally this would just be a math problem. You just plug the be a math problem. You just plug the be a math problem. You just plug the numbers in de of course that's not numbers in de of course that's not numbers in de of course that's not really the way things work. So there is really the way things work. So there is really the way things work. So there is judgment calls made but we want to get judgment calls made but we want to get judgment calls made but we want to get as much objective information to support as much objective information to support as much objective information to support it as possible. That that made me feel it as possible. That that made me feel it as possible. That that made me feel like there's opportunities at the base like there's opportunities at the base like there's opportunities at the base of the pyramid, the hypervisor. Yeah. Uh of the pyramid, the hypervisor. Yeah. Uh of the pyramid, the hypervisor. Yeah. Uh concurrency algorithms like you know you concurrency algorithms like you know you concurrency algorithms like you know you could reinvent algebra and then there's could reinvent algebra and then there's could reinvent algebra and then there's opportunities at the peak of the pyramid opportunities at the peak of the pyramid opportunities at the peak of the pyramid which is highly specialized coming up which is highly specialized coming up which is highly specialized coming up with something really fundamental with something really fundamental with something really fundamental because the base of the the peak of the because the base of the the peak of the because the base of the the peak of the pyramid ends up moving down and you know pyramid ends up moving down and you know pyramid ends up moving down and you know what today's peak is is tomorrow's base what today's peak is is tomorrow's base what today's peak is is tomorrow's base that we're all going to build on top of.

that we're all going to build on top of. that we're all going to build on top of. >> Well there's like playwright for example >> Well there's like playwright for example >> Well there's like playwright for example or VS code TF TF and D's have been given or VS code TF TF and D's have been given or VS code TF TF and D's have been given for those kind you know those are for those kind you know those are for those kind you know those are individual contributions. Yeah. Yeah, individual contributions. Yeah. Yeah, individual contributions. Yeah. Yeah, that's a great point. that's a great point. that's a great point. >> Interesting. Uh, this must be Scott and >> Interesting. Uh, this must be Scott and >> Interesting. Uh, this must be Scott and Mark learn to be distinguished. >> I thought we were already distinguished. >> I thought we were already distinguished. >> Oh, so nice. >> Oh, so nice. >> Oh, so nice. >> I guess. [laughter] >> All right. The bosses want us to wrap >> All right. The bosses want us to wrap up. up. up. >> All right. >> All right. >> All right. >> So, what did we discuss? What is our >> So, what did we discuss? What is our >> So, what did we discuss? What is our summary here? Um, there's luck involved. summary here? Um, there's luck involved. summary here? Um, there's luck involved. There's individual contribution. There's There's individual contribution. There's There's individual contribution. There's doing the grind. You can't vibe your way doing the grind. You can't vibe your way doing the grind. You can't vibe your way into a storyried career. into a storyried career. into a storyried career. >> You can't make uh generally make just >> You can't make uh generally make just >> You can't make uh generally make just making friends doesn't get you very far. making friends doesn't get you very far. making friends doesn't get you very far. Like it can get you some ways, but at Like it can get you some ways, but at Like it can get you some ways, but at some point you need more than friends. some point you need more than friends. some point you need more than friends. >> So coasting on charm >> So coasting on charm >> So coasting on charm >> at that level >> at that level >> at that level >> gets caught pretty quickly. >> gets caught pretty quickly. >> gets caught pretty quickly. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It might get you somewhere, but >> Yeah. It might get you somewhere, but >> Yeah. It might get you somewhere, but it's not going to get you all the way. it's not going to get you all the way. it's not going to get you all the way. Um, you know, by contrast, if you're Um, you know, by contrast, if you're Um, you know, by contrast, if you're hard to get along with, that makes it hard to get along with, that makes it hard to get along with, that makes it much harder for you to get recognized much harder for you to get recognized much harder for you to get recognized and promoted.

and promoted. and promoted. >> It explains how you got here and you're >> It explains how you got here and you're >> It explains how you got here and you're the same. [laughter] >> I love our time together. >> I love our time together. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Do you? But it's it's on my connect. I'm >> Do you? But it's it's on my connect. I'm >> Do you? But it's it's on my connect. I'm required to to enjoy this time. required to to enjoy this time. required to to enjoy this time. >> No, I do. I think it's important because >> No, I do. I think it's important because >> No, I do. I think it's important because I think like we we we've seen before in I think like we we we've seen before in I think like we we we've seen before in the comments we have a you know we have the comments we have a you know we have the comments we have a you know we have a comment we have people from all over a comment we have people from all over a comment we have people from all over who watch the show and talk about the who watch the show and talk about the who watch the show and talk about the show but what I think is good about us show but what I think is good about us show but what I think is good about us hanging [music] out is that these are hanging [music] out is that these are hanging [music] out is that these are the conversations that we have that we the conversations that we have that we the conversations that we have that we just happen to have a camera on and just happen to have a camera on and just happen to have a camera on and people are like man no one talks like people are like man no one talks like people are like man no one talks like this no one tells us this stuff I wish this no one tells us this stuff I wish this no one tells us this stuff I wish they would have told me that they would have told me that they would have told me that >> someone's someone said the thing out >> someone's someone said the thing out >> someone's someone said the thing out loud that that that kind of uh those loud that that that kind of uh those loud that that that kind of uh those conversations are important and I'm conversations are important and I'm conversations are important and I'm happy that we we get to them together. happy that we we get to them together. happy that we we get to them together. >> Yeah, I agree. >> Yeah, I agree. >> Yeah, I agree. >> Cool. Like and subscribe, kids. Smash >> Cool. Like and subscribe, kids. Smash >> Cool. Like and subscribe, kids. Smash that bell. Let us know if you like it in that bell. Let us know if you like it in that bell. Let us know if you like it in the chat.