EPISODE 33 - Scott & Mark Learn To...A Public 1-1 for Software Engineering Preceptorship

All right. Do I look chiseled enough All right. Do I look chiseled enough now? No more than usual. That's the now? No more than usual. That's the now? No more than usual. That's the opener. That's the opener. opener. That's the opener. opener. That's the opener. Do I look chiseled enough now? All Do I look chiseled enough now? All Do I look chiseled enough now? All right. right. right. What are we doing here, man? Uh I don't know. What are we doing? Uh I don't know. What are we doing? Well, Well, Well, the paper's out. the paper's out. the paper's out. Even though we were prescient 6 months Even though we were prescient 6 months Even though we were prescient 6 months ago, it's available now. ago, it's available now. ago, it's available now. Yeah. So, shout out to our partners at Yeah. So, shout out to our partners at Yeah. So, shout out to our partners at the ACM for making that happen. LinkedIn the ACM for making that happen. LinkedIn the ACM for making that happen. LinkedIn got good pick up. A lot of good A lot of got good pick up. A lot of good A lot of got good pick up. A lot of good A lot of good reboosts or whatever good reboosts or whatever good reboosts or whatever they're called on LinkedIn. What are they're called on LinkedIn. What are they're called on LinkedIn. What are they Yeah, what are they called? I think they Yeah, what are they called? I think they Yeah, what are they called? I think they're just likes and posts. they're just likes and posts. they're just likes and posts. >> Reposts. Reposts. Reposts. Yeah. >> Reposts. Reposts. Reposts. Yeah. >> Reposts. Reposts. Reposts. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think you're ahead of me to as of I think you're ahead of me to as of I think you're ahead of me to as of today, still. Yeah, I jumped on it today, still. Yeah, I jumped on it today, still. Yeah, I jumped on it immediately. immediately. immediately. >> Yeah. Everybody knows Sunday afternoon >> Yeah. Everybody knows Sunday afternoon >> Yeah. Everybody knows Sunday afternoon is the time to do all of your LinkedIn is the time to do all of your LinkedIn is the time to do all of your LinkedIn posts. Is it? Really? No, it's not. It's posts. Is it? Really? No, it's not. It's posts. Is it? Really? No, it's not. It's funny. There's a whole group of people funny. There's a whole group of people funny. There's a whole group of people out there that'll tell you like the out there that'll tell you like the out there that'll tell you like the exact moment to do the exact thing and exact moment to do the exact thing and exact moment to do the exact thing and they'll tell you when to post them. I they'll tell you when to post them. I they'll tell you when to post them. I just post. I don't even think about the just post. I don't even think about the just post. I don't even think about the time of the day. time of the day. time of the day. >> I think of like not posting on the >> I think of like not posting on the >> I think of like not posting on the weekend cuz nobody's paying attention. weekend cuz nobody's paying attention. weekend cuz nobody's paying attention. It's going to go viral. It's going to go It's going to go viral. It's going to go It's going to go viral. It's going to go viral. All right. What's our What's our viral. All right. What's our What's our viral. All right. What's our What's our topic for today? Uh I don't know. Do you topic for today? Uh I don't know. Do you topic for today? Uh I don't know. Do you want If you want to do the paper want If you want to do the paper want If you want to do the paper Uh Uh Uh >> Have we talked about the paper before? I >> Have we talked about the paper before? I >> Have we talked about the paper before? I think we've talked about the think we've talked about the think we've talked about the topic many times now.

topic many times now. topic many times now. Well, let's just talk a little bit about Well, let's just talk a little bit about Well, let's just talk a little bit about the paper. Let's give it like a little the paper. Let's give it like a little the paper. Let's give it like a little 10 15 minutes to talk about the paper. 10 15 minutes to talk about the paper. 10 15 minutes to talk about the paper. All right. All right. All right. Okay. So, I'll actually I'll bring the Okay. So, I'll actually I'll bring the Okay. So, I'll actually I'll bring the I'll bring the paper up. We'll do a I'll bring the paper up. We'll do a I'll bring the paper up. We'll do a little bit of of screen sharing here cuz little bit of of screen sharing here cuz little bit of of screen sharing here cuz it adds a little bit of visual interest. it adds a little bit of visual interest. it adds a little bit of visual interest. And if my machine blows up, it's because And if my machine blows up, it's because And if my machine blows up, it's because I've been I've got a a bug on this I've been I've got a a bug on this I've been I've got a a bug on this Nvidia driver that I'm running. Nvidia driver that I'm running. Nvidia driver that I'm running. Okay. So, Okay. So, Okay. So, there This is the paper here. It was there This is the paper here. It was there This is the paper here. It was done for the ACM. done for the ACM. done for the ACM. Uh we've been associated with the ACM Uh we've been associated with the ACM Uh we've been associated with the ACM for quite a while. for quite a while. for quite a while. And I'll look at the PDF version of this And I'll look at the PDF version of this And I'll look at the PDF version of this paper here. paper here. paper here. And is this going to be like printout? And is this going to be like printout? And is this going to be like printout? Can we get this a copy of this and put Can we get this a copy of this and put Can we get this a copy of this and put it in our bathroom as well? it in our bathroom as well? it in our bathroom as well? >> Eventually, yeah. >> Eventually, yeah. >> Eventually, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's pretty cool. Uh oh, I didn't see That's pretty cool. Uh oh, I didn't see That's pretty cool. Uh oh, I didn't see that. Is that the actual I think that's that. Is that the actual I think that's that. Is that the actual I think that's the cover. Uh are we on it or not? I the cover. Uh are we on it or not? I the cover. Uh are we on it or not? I don't think that doesn't look like us. don't think that doesn't look like us. don't think that doesn't look like us. >> uh give that to AI and ask it to enhance >> uh give that to AI and ask it to enhance >> uh give that to AI and ask it to enhance and see if we're on it. and see if we're on it. and see if we're on it. Enhance. Yeah. Enhance. Enhance. Yeah. Enhance. Enhance. Yeah. Enhance. Enhance. No. Enhance. No. Enhance. No. Uh Uh Uh No, we're not even listed. Wow.

No, we're not even listed. Wow. No, we're not even listed. Wow. Man, oh man. Man, oh man. Man, oh man. It's really disappointing. Yeah. It's really disappointing. Yeah. It's really disappointing. Yeah. I'll be sure to call them and ask them I'll be sure to call them and ask them I'll be sure to call them and ask them if they know who you are. So, um So, um the idea is the idea is the idea is Oh, and actually, you know what we Oh, and actually, you know what we Oh, and actually, you know what we should do? We should go through some of should do? We should go through some of should do? We should go through some of the comments. This one I thought was really good. This one I thought was really good. This assumes organizations that are This assumes organizations that are This assumes organizations that are large enough to fund a preceptorship, large enough to fund a preceptorship, large enough to fund a preceptorship, right? So, our theory right? So, our theory right? So, our theory >> Yeah. So, what do you do when you've got >> Yeah. So, what do you do when you've got >> Yeah. So, what do you do when you've got a small team and there's basically one a small team and there's basically one a small team and there's basically one senior who's just starting out? senior who's just starting out? senior who's just starting out? >> talk with you about it. Should we have >> talk with you about it. Should we have >> talk with you about it. Should we have our one-on-one on the show? our one-on-one on the show? our one-on-one on the show? Let's do it. Let's do it. Let's do it. >> [music] >> Cuz I wanted to talk to you about this. >> Cuz I wanted to talk to you about this. Uh-oh. Uh-oh. Uh-oh. Actually, I've come I'm coming to the Actually, I've come I'm coming to the Actually, I've come I'm coming to the conclusion conclusion conclusion that universities need to actually that universities need to actually that universities need to actually it needs to be funded through it needs to be funded through it needs to be funded through universities to get to scale. Okay.

universities to get to scale. Okay. universities to get to scale. Okay. That's interesting cuz we you and I both That's interesting cuz we you and I both That's interesting cuz we you and I both have associations with a number of have associations with a number of have associations with a number of universities. Um universities. Um universities. Um because because because the Yeah, it you need to a few things to the Yeah, it you need to a few things to the Yeah, it you need to a few things to actually implement a praise program actually implement a praise program actually implement a praise program assuming that, you know, universities assuming that, you know, universities assuming that, you know, universities are dropping out are dropping out are dropping out they're they're they're producing producing producing early in careers early in careers early in careers using the same approach they've been using the same approach they've been using the same approach they've been using so far. They come out with some using so far. They come out with some using so far. They come out with some skills they have no experience. skills they have no experience. skills they have no experience. Right. Right. Right. >> Um >> Um >> Um is that is that is that only a company needs to have a structure only a company needs to have a structure only a company needs to have a structure in place enough senior people enough in place enough senior people enough in place enough senior people enough money enough money enough money enough HR support HR support HR support enough incentive. Like, what is the enough incentive. Like, what is the enough incentive. Like, what is the incentive? incentive? incentive? Really, what a lot of companies would do Really, what a lot of companies would do Really, what a lot of companies would do is just say, "You know what? I'm not is just say, "You know what? I'm not is just say, "You know what? I'm not going to worry about it. I'll just hire going to worry about it. I'll just hire going to worry about it. I'll just hire seniors and if I need more seniors, I'll seniors and if I need more seniors, I'll seniors and if I need more seniors, I'll go poach them from some other place that go poach them from some other place that go poach them from some other place that is got a praise program, you know, that is got a praise program, you know, that is got a praise program, you know, that gets this early in career to senior gets this early in career to senior gets this early in career to senior level and I'll just take them from level and I'll just take them from level and I'll just take them from there."

there." there." So, how do you stop that from happening? So, how do you stop that from happening? So, how do you stop that from happening? Everybody going, "I'm going to take Everybody going, "I'm going to take Everybody going, "I'm going to take advantage of everybody else." advantage of everybody else." advantage of everybody else." I think I think I think the whole thing the whole thing the whole thing just won't work. Like, Microsoft is the just won't work. Like, Microsoft is the just won't work. Like, Microsoft is the one training juniors and everybody else one training juniors and everybody else one training juniors and everybody else is hiring them from us, for example. is hiring them from us, for example. is hiring them from us, for example. So, that's what takes me back to I think So, that's what takes me back to I think So, that's what takes me back to I think it needs to be university driven where it needs to be university driven where it needs to be university driven where you go into school and then you go into school and then you go into school and then there's some incentive for there's some incentive for there's some incentive for companies to take in these early in companies to take in these early in companies to take in these early in careers and and even the minimal careers and and even the minimal careers and and even the minimal investment, but it needs to be really investment, but it needs to be really investment, but it needs to be really minimal to make it minimal to make it minimal to make it worth their while. worth their while. worth their while. Like Like Like um um um I mean, the universities are kind of I mean, the universities are kind of I mean, the universities are kind of running the preceptor programs inside of running the preceptor programs inside of running the preceptor programs inside of companies that these people go to. companies that these people go to. companies that these people go to. Yeah. And they're still paying Yeah. And they're still paying Yeah. And they're still paying tuition and maybe they're getting some tuition and maybe they're getting some tuition and maybe they're getting some nominal employment from them. So, which nominal employment from them. So, which nominal employment from them. So, which direction is this flow though? Like, the direction is this flow though? Like, the direction is this flow though? Like, the people flow out of college. Does the Are people flow out of college. Does the Are people flow out of college. Does the Are you saying that the school pays you saying that the school pays you saying that the school pays >> Yeah. to get the get people in? Schools >> Yeah. to get the get people in? Schools >> Yeah. to get the get people in? Schools are already expensive though.

are already expensive though. are already expensive though. But it's just part of tuition, I think. But it's just part of tuition, I think. But it's just part of tuition, I think. When I And maybe the tuition drops when When I And maybe the tuition drops when When I And maybe the tuition drops when they go because the maybe the companies they go because the maybe the companies they go because the maybe the companies are paying some of it. are paying some of it. are paying some of it. But But But people kids want to graduate from school people kids want to graduate from school people kids want to graduate from school with a guaranteed job. with a guaranteed job. with a guaranteed job. And there's a bunch of kids that'll get And there's a bunch of kids that'll get And there's a bunch of kids that'll get out of college and then like in June of out of college and then like in June of out of college and then like in June of senior year and they're out they're senior year and they're out they're senior year and they're out they're like, "Okay, I got to start looking for like, "Okay, I got to start looking for like, "Okay, I got to start looking for a job." And then there are those that a job." And then there are those that a job." And then there are those that have been doing internships since have been doing internships since have been doing internships since sophomore year and they're going to be sophomore year and they're going to be sophomore year and they're going to be better positioned to get into into gigs. better positioned to get into into gigs. better positioned to get into into gigs. And traditionally, the internship And traditionally, the internship And traditionally, the internship involves digging your way out of an involves digging your way out of an involves digging your way out of an internship. I did an internship when I internship. I did an internship when I internship. I did an internship when I went to Portland Community College, that went to Portland Community College, that went to Portland Community College, that was a reason I went to that school. They was a reason I went to that school. They was a reason I went to that school. They said, "And we have a required said, "And we have a required said, "And we have a required internship." In order to graduate, you internship." In order to graduate, you internship." In order to graduate, you must do an internship and we partner must do an internship and we partner must do an internship and we partner with local businesses. That was like with local businesses. That was like with local businesses. That was like that made me want to go there because that made me want to go there because that made me want to go there because they were it was a guaranteed internship they were it was a guaranteed internship they were it was a guaranteed internship and they didn't have to I didn't have to and they didn't have to I didn't have to and they didn't have to I didn't have to go hunting for it. They like assigned me go hunting for it. They like assigned me go hunting for it. They like assigned me a company. a company. a company. >> that's what I'm suggesting >> that's what I'm suggesting >> that's what I'm suggesting the model that I think we'll go to the model that I think we'll go to the model that I think we'll go to operates like, but it's not an operates like, but it's not an operates like, but it's not an internship, it's a preceptorship. Right.

internship, it's a preceptorship. Right. internship, it's a preceptorship. Right. >> getting placed into. >> getting placed into. >> getting placed into. And the But I think the universities are And the But I think the universities are And the But I think the universities are like You consider like You consider like You consider um company like Microsoft, right? um company like Microsoft, right? um company like Microsoft, right? Microsoft can run a preceptorship Microsoft can run a preceptorship Microsoft can run a preceptorship program. Small companies program. Small companies program. Small companies don't have the resources to do it or don't have the resources to do it or don't have the resources to do it or skills to do it. skills to do it. skills to do it. And And And >> Yeah, there were only There was me and >> Yeah, there were only There was me and >> Yeah, there were only There was me and one other person at the place that I did one other person at the place that I did one other person at the place that I did an internship. But if the universities an internship. But if the universities an internship. But if the universities ran the preceptorship program inside of ran the preceptorship program inside of ran the preceptorship program inside of a company somehow, I I don't I mean, a company somehow, I I don't I mean, a company somehow, I I don't I mean, there's there's there's I just I don't have the answer. I just I don't have the answer. I just I don't have the answer. No, I don't. But we're figuring the No, I don't. But we're figuring the No, I don't. But we're figuring the answer out together, right? But I don't answer out together, right? But I don't answer out together, right? But I don't think that and I think it's great that think that and I think it's great that think that and I think it's great that Microsoft's piloting this Microsoft's piloting this Microsoft's piloting this um um um because it needs to start somewhere. because it needs to start somewhere. because it needs to start somewhere. But I think that But I think that But I think that without enough I think that without enough I think that without enough I think that enough back pressure has to form from enough back pressure has to form from enough back pressure has to form from the industry to get schools to the industry to get schools to the industry to get schools to get this going. get this going. get this going. Cuz right now, I think if we went to a Cuz right now, I think if we went to a Cuz right now, I think if we went to a school and said, "Start this thing." school and said, "Start this thing." school and said, "Start this thing." We might we We might we We might we I'm guessing we'd have trouble. Well, I'm guessing we'd have trouble. Well, I'm guessing we'd have trouble. Well, but at the same time, like I'm doing a but at the same time, like I'm doing a but at the same time, like I'm doing a thing at Cornell later this week and thing at Cornell later this week and thing at Cornell later this week and then, you know, they'll email uh they'll then, you know, they'll email uh they'll then, you know, they'll email uh they'll they'll let they'll let us go and talk they'll let they'll let us go and talk they'll let they'll let us go and talk to them and then of course, you'll get to them and then of course, you'll get to them and then of course, you'll get all the LinkedIns that want like, "Hey, all the LinkedIns that want like, "Hey, all the LinkedIns that want like, "Hey, can you give me an internship?" and you can you give me an internship?" and you can you give me an internship?" and you put them into the internship program.

put them into the internship program. put them into the internship program. There's also the programs where they There's also the programs where they There's also the programs where they want you to pay like they want Microsoft want you to pay like they want Microsoft want you to pay like they want Microsoft or the company to pay them 20 grand or the company to pay them 20 grand or the company to pay them 20 grand to have someone come in and I don't have to have someone come in and I don't have to have someone come in and I don't have I don't have that 20 grand to to pay or I don't have that 20 grand to to pay or I don't have that 20 grand to to pay or whatever. I just made that number up. whatever. I just made that number up. whatever. I just made that number up. >> Yeah. But there seems to be money >> Yeah. But there seems to be money >> Yeah. But there seems to be money [clears throat] flowing back and forth [clears throat] flowing back and forth [clears throat] flowing back and forth between big companies and between big companies and between big companies and colleges to try to solve these kind of colleges to try to solve these kind of colleges to try to solve these kind of problems. Well, I think if you did a problems. Well, I think if you did a problems. Well, I think if you did a joint A joint thing would be would it joint A joint thing would be would it joint A joint thing would be would it align align align incentives? Um where the where the incentives? Um where the where the incentives? Um where the where the company's paying for the student and the company's paying for the student and the company's paying for the student and the student's paying the university student's paying the university student's paying the university which is effectively paying the company which is effectively paying the company which is effectively paying the company Okay. through supporting the program in Okay. through supporting the program in Okay. through supporting the program in some way and, you know, giving them this some way and, you know, giving them this some way and, you know, giving them this low-cost individual that maybe can do low-cost individual that maybe can do low-cost individual that maybe can do something, but also grows into becoming something, but also grows into becoming something, but also grows into becoming more capable and replacing talent. But more capable and replacing talent. But more capable and replacing talent. But But to your original point, there has to But to your original point, there has to But to your original point, there has to be a reason because capitalism. Yeah, I be a reason because capitalism. Yeah, I be a reason because capitalism. Yeah, I know. And right now, like I don't I know. And right now, like I don't I know. And right now, like I don't I don't think the reason is there yet. And don't think the reason is there yet. And don't think the reason is there yet. And that's what I'm saying. I don't think that's what I'm saying. I don't think that's what I'm saying. I don't think the back pressure is built yet to to the back pressure is built yet to to the back pressure is built yet to to incentivize this. Like when I did it, I incentivize this. Like when I did it, I incentivize this. Like when I did it, I felt like there was less people in the felt like there was less people in the felt like there was less people in the industry and they were looking for industry and they were looking for industry and they were looking for anyone who knew what they were doing.

anyone who knew what they were doing. anyone who knew what they were doing. Now, there's a ton of people who know Now, there's a ton of people who know Now, there's a ton of people who know what they're doing. Like, is the what they're doing. Like, is the what they're doing. Like, is the industry right-sizing itself? Are there industry right-sizing itself? Are there industry right-sizing itself? Are there Cuz one person will tell you there's too Cuz one person will tell you there's too Cuz one person will tell you there's too many engineers and another one will say many engineers and another one will say many engineers and another one will say there's not enough. Um I think that you're I'm not hearing I think that you're I'm not hearing there's not enough anymore. there's not enough anymore. there's not enough anymore. Hm. Hm. Hm. And I think that And I think that And I think that if we talk about the boost you're if we talk about the boost you're if we talk about the boost you're getting the senior people are getting, getting the senior people are getting, getting the senior people are getting, then the then the then the their amount is going to their amount is going to their amount is going to at the in the best case, stay where it at the in the best case, stay where it at the in the best case, stay where it is. And um And um >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> again, the pressure is not only going to >> again, the pressure is not only going to >> again, the pressure is not only going to start building when start building when start building when the pool of talent shrinks below the the pool of talent shrinks below the the pool of talent shrinks below the thresh the the required thresh the the required thresh the the required you know, the demand for it. you know, the demand for it. you know, the demand for it. Hm. Hm. Hm. And then, people will wake up and say, And then, people will wake up and say, And then, people will wake up and say, "Wait a minute. We need to have "Wait a minute. We need to have "Wait a minute. We need to have preceptorship programs." preceptorship programs." preceptorship programs." Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's a really interesting program in There's a really interesting program in There's a really interesting program in South Africa. There's a woman named South Africa. There's a woman named South Africa. There's a woman named Nyari Samushonga who runs a place called Nyari Samushonga who runs a place called Nyari Samushonga who runs a place called WeThinkCode WeThinkCode WeThinkCode and it's a a two-year program that you and it's a a two-year program that you and it's a a two-year program that you graduate from and you have a guaranteed graduate from and you have a guaranteed graduate from and you have a guaranteed job at the end if you make it through job at the end if you make it through job at the end if you make it through the program and the program is very the program and the program is very the program and the program is very hard. So, there's like a It's not one of hard. So, there's like a It's not one of hard. So, there's like a It's not one of those things like we graduate 97% like those things like we graduate 97% like those things like we graduate 97% like people will not make it through the people will not make it through the people will not make it through the program.

program. program. But, what's cool about it is that the But, what's cool about it is that the But, what's cool about it is that the companies, if I understand this companies, if I understand this companies, if I understand this correctly cuz I visited them in person, correctly cuz I visited them in person, correctly cuz I visited them in person, the companies the companies the companies basically hire the people before they've basically hire the people before they've basically hire the people before they've graduated. graduated. graduated. And they say, "We're going to pay for And they say, "We're going to pay for And they say, "We're going to pay for your tuition. your tuition. your tuition. We're going to pay ahead of time for We're going to pay ahead of time for We're going to pay ahead of time for you. We'll give you a stipend. You're you. We'll give you a stipend. You're you. We'll give you a stipend. You're going to come work for us and we're going to come work for us and we're going to come work for us and we're going to basically get guaranteed good going to basically get guaranteed good going to basically get guaranteed good workers Yeah. workers Yeah. workers Yeah. >> but because they've been put through >> but because they've been put through >> but because they've been put through such a rigorous program. Well, that's such a rigorous program. Well, that's such a rigorous program. Well, that's what's kind of like an inverted boot what's kind of like an inverted boot what's kind of like an inverted boot camp. camp. camp. >> I think that what I'm >> I think that what I'm >> I think that what I'm describing is a version of that though describing is a version of that though describing is a version of that though where the you know the where the you know the where the you know the the company's not necessarily paying the the company's not necessarily paying the the company's not necessarily paying the full salary cuz they're still a stipend. full salary cuz they're still a stipend. full salary cuz they're still a stipend. Oh, yeah. Um and the school is Oh, yeah. Um and the school is Oh, yeah. Um and the school is effectively responsible for the effectively responsible for the effectively responsible for the preceptorship part of it somehow. Um But, this requires a much more tight But, this requires a much more tight connection between industry and schools. connection between industry and schools. connection between industry and schools. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Did you see Kent Beck's Did you see Kent Beck's Did you see Kent Beck's article article article on the bet on juniors?

on the bet on juniors? on the bet on juniors? Um I don't remember. So, here's where he Um I don't remember. So, here's where he Um I don't remember. So, here's where he calls out what we called out. Everyone calls out what we called out. Everyone calls out what we called out. Everyone takes the knee-jerk action, takes the knee-jerk action, takes the knee-jerk action, slowing hiring, getting rid of juniors, slowing hiring, getting rid of juniors, slowing hiring, getting rid of juniors, canceling internships. canceling internships. canceling internships. The standard model says juniors are The standard model says juniors are The standard model says juniors are expensive. They ask questions. Those expensive. They ask questions. Those expensive. They ask questions. Those darn juniors. They break things. They darn juniors. They break things. They darn juniors. They break things. They need code review. need code review. need code review. And he's like, "No. And he's like, "No. And he's like, "No. You manage juniors for learning, not You manage juniors for learning, not You manage juniors for learning, not production. So, it's very similar to production. So, it's very similar to production. So, it's very similar to what we just what we just what we just >> said. We've been Yep. A junior is a bet. >> said. We've been Yep. A junior is a bet. >> said. We've been Yep. A junior is a bet. You're paying money today for You're paying money today for You're paying money today for productivity tomorrow. But, then how do productivity tomorrow. But, then how do productivity tomorrow. But, then how do you solve that they become good and then you solve that they become good and then you solve that they become good and then they get they get poached? they get they get poached? they get they get poached? >> Well, yeah. This is what I'm saying is >> Well, yeah. This is what I'm saying is >> Well, yeah. This is what I'm saying is like why invest in I mean that this is like why invest in I mean that this is like why invest in I mean that this is exactly preceptorship. 100%. exactly preceptorship. 100%. exactly preceptorship. 100%. >> what it is. Yep. Yep. Um but I so I I'm >> what it is. Yep. Yep. Um but I so I I'm >> what it is. Yep. Yep. Um but I so I I'm saying that saying that saying that uh uh uh connection between connection between connection between universities and industry bridges that universities and industry bridges that universities and industry bridges that gap there. gap there. gap there. Yep. Yep. Yep. But, then look at this. He actually But, then look at this. He actually But, then look at this. He actually calls this out which we didn't. Junior calls this out which we didn't. Junior calls this out which we didn't. Junior developers have high turnover. He says developers have high turnover. He says developers have high turnover. He says 36% leave before they become positive.

So, really interesting conversations So, really interesting conversations that are happening around this. that are happening around this. that are happening around this. >> that that's the thing is there's this >> that that's the thing is there's this >> that that's the thing is there's this you know the the companies that will you know the the companies that will you know the the companies that will just take advantage of the just take advantage of the just take advantage of the system that other people are paying for. system that other people are paying for. system that other people are paying for. Right. So, then Right. So, then Right. So, then when you do an internship or a when you do an internship or a when you do an internship or a journeyman or you know you can become journeyman or you know you can become journeyman or you know you can become like a journeyman like a journeyman like a journeyman >> I think there has to be some like part >> I think there has to be some like part >> I think there has to be some like part of your your you know your compensation of your your you know your compensation of your your you know your compensation is tied to you staying for some amount is tied to you staying for some amount is tied to you staying for some amount of time. You got to stick with golden of time. You got to stick with golden of time. You got to stick with golden handcuffs of of of a kind. We'll pay for handcuffs of of of a kind. We'll pay for handcuffs of of of a kind. We'll pay for your school if you stick around for two your school if you stick around for two your school if you stick around for two to four years and and to four years and and to four years and and And and if you go then you you owe it And and if you go then you you owe it And and if you go then you you owe it back to us, right? Um back to us, right? Um back to us, right? Um >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Which which is a way that some of the Which which is a way that some of the Which which is a way that some of the early uh early uh early uh uh kind of failed uh kind of failed uh kind of failed um coding boot camps used to do that um coding boot camps used to do that um coding boot camps used to do that kind of thing except the boot camp made kind of thing except the boot camp made kind of thing except the boot camp made it about them rather than about the it about them rather than about the it about them rather than about the company. company. company. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Anyway, so that's that's the thoughts Anyway, so that's that's the thoughts Anyway, so that's that's the thoughts that I was having as we're having this that I was having as we're having this that I was having as we're having this one-on-one in front of everybody and I one-on-one in front of everybody and I one-on-one in front of everybody and I wanted to go back to wanted to go back to wanted to go back to uh some of the schools we're talking to uh some of the schools we're talking to uh some of the schools we're talking to and see what they think. I was going to and see what they think. I was going to and see what they think. I was going to write it up. I was going to have AI write it up. I was going to have AI write it up. I was going to have AI write a paper for me on it. write a paper for me on it. write a paper for me on it. Were you really? Were you really? Were you really? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Let's see if that gets Make sure >> Yeah. Let's see if that gets Make sure >> Yeah. Let's see if that gets Make sure it has a lot of m dashes.

it has a lot of m dashes. it has a lot of m dashes. >> Yeah. Yeah. We've got some schools. Um >> Yeah. Yeah. We've got some schools. Um >> Yeah. Yeah. We've got some schools. Um I've I'm talking to uh uh an HBCU that I've I'm talking to uh uh an HBCU that I've I'm talking to uh uh an HBCU that I'm um very lucky to work with later I'm um very lucky to work with later I'm um very lucky to work with later this week. We're going to have I'm on this week. We're going to have I'm on this week. We're going to have I'm on the AI subcommittee. Mhm. And then um the AI subcommittee. Mhm. And then um the AI subcommittee. Mhm. And then um I've got a kid at University of Portland I've got a kid at University of Portland I've got a kid at University of Portland and they're going to have a conversation and they're going to have a conversation and they're going to have a conversation around AI as well. And then I know around AI as well. And then I know around AI as well. And then I know you've got your alma mater and other you've got your alma mater and other you've got your alma mater and other schools that are very well thought of schools that are very well thought of schools that are very well thought of that you're going to look at. So, that you're going to look at. So, that you're going to look at. So, we want to try to solve this problem at we want to try to solve this problem at we want to try to solve this problem at scale. Like you can't just solve it scale. Like you can't just solve it scale. Like you can't just solve it onesy-twosy. onesy-twosy. onesy-twosy. You got to go all in. You need someone You got to go all in. You need someone You got to go all in. You need someone to make a big bet to make something like to make a big bet to make something like to make a big bet to make something like this happen. this happen. this happen. >> Yeah. Yep. You need both sides of the >> Yeah. Yep. You need both sides of the >> Yeah. Yep. You need both sides of the equation to make that bet together, I equation to make that bet together, I equation to make that bet together, I think. think. think. >> Yeah. >> [sighs] >> [sighs] >> But uh yeah. I mean if we want to get >> But uh yeah. I mean if we want to get >> But uh yeah. I mean if we want to get ahead of it, right? Because I think when ahead of it, right? Because I think when ahead of it, right? Because I think when it becomes a crisis and everybody goes, it becomes a crisis and everybody goes, it becomes a crisis and everybody goes, "Oh, there's no senior talent. We're all "Oh, there's no senior talent. We're all "Oh, there's no senior talent. We're all fighting for the same pool." and Yeah. fighting for the same pool." and Yeah. fighting for the same pool." and Yeah. You know. Then they're going to pull us You know. Then they're going to pull us You know. Then they're going to pull us out of retirement to do Visual Basic. out of retirement to do Visual Basic. out of retirement to do Visual Basic. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> All right. Well, I think that's an >> All right. Well, I think that's an >> All right. Well, I think that's an episode uh even though it may not be the episode uh even though it may not be the episode uh even though it may not be the most interesting episode that it needed most interesting episode that it needed most interesting episode that it needed to happen to happen to happen because we were going to talk about this because we were going to talk about this because we were going to talk about this anyway.

anyway. anyway. >> I did want to talk to you about going >> I did want to talk to you about going >> I did want to talk to you about going back to CMU and proposing that. back to CMU and proposing that. back to CMU and proposing that. Let's do it. All right. Like I I think Let's do it. All right. Like I I think Let's do it. All right. Like I I think that when we talked to them before they that when we talked to them before they that when we talked to them before they were excited. I think the challenge with were excited. I think the challenge with were excited. I think the challenge with all of these things is you got to just all of these things is you got to just all of these things is you got to just do the thing. do the thing. do the thing. Yeah. But, I think Yeah. But, I think Yeah. But, I think proposing the proposing the proposing the you know universities are on the hook you know universities are on the hook you know universities are on the hook for preceptorship. for preceptorship. for preceptorship. Oh, okay. So, flipping it and just Oh, okay. So, flipping it and just Oh, okay. So, flipping it and just making sure that they understand that making sure that they understand that making sure that they understand that we'll be here ready, but they need to we'll be here ready, but they need to we'll be here ready, but they need to >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. own the pushing. own the pushing. own the pushing. What is your robot doing? What is your robot doing? What is your robot doing? Um when when something agentic happens Um when when something agentic happens Um when when something agentic happens if Dude, relax. When [laughter] when if Dude, relax. When [laughter] when if Dude, relax. When [laughter] when Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Don't fall off the Don't fall off the Don't fall off the fall off the table. So, I hooked in a fall off the table. So, I hooked in a fall off the table. So, I hooked in a loop. Dude. loop. Dude. loop. Dude. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. When when so When when so When when so When when When when When when >> What's got a What's his name? He's >> What's got a What's his name? He's >> What's got a What's his name? He's really cute. Richie. really cute. Richie. really cute. Richie. Like he reach He can't reach for Like he reach He can't reach for Like he reach He can't reach for anything. He can't reach for anything. anything. He can't reach for anything. anything. He can't reach for anything. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> So, he I've hooked up a a hook into the >> So, he I've hooked up a a hook into the >> So, he I've hooked up a a hook into the is it get up code out of CLI. So, then is it get up code out of CLI. So, then is it get up code out of CLI. So, then when a session ends and he like gets all when a session ends and he like gets all when a session ends and he like gets all the tests passing or whatever.

the tests passing or whatever. the tests passing or whatever. >> yeah. [music] >> yeah. [music] >> yeah. [music] I know that if you got your test passing I know that if you got your test passing I know that if you got your test passing that you would also have such a thing. that you would also have such a thing. that you would also have such a thing. A robot making woohoo noises. A robot making woohoo noises. A robot making woohoo noises. Thanks for Thanks for watching. Thanks for Thanks for watching. Thanks for Thanks for watching. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for watching Scott and Mark uh Thanks for watching Scott and Mark uh Thanks for watching Scott and Mark uh learn to uh one of these days we'll learn to uh one of these days we'll learn to uh one of these days we'll learn to have a show of an appropriate learn to have a show of an appropriate learn to have a show of an appropriate length and we'll remember to stop and length and we'll remember to stop and length and we'll remember to stop and and set up for the next show. But, we and set up for the next show. But, we and set up for the next show. But, we appreciate you and if you make it this appreciate you and if you make it this appreciate you and if you make it this far if you made it this far far if you made it this far far if you made it this far go to the comments. go to the comments. go to the comments. >> Smash Smash the subscribe button. I've >> Smash Smash the subscribe button. I've >> Smash Smash the subscribe button. I've learned that that's what you're supposed learned that that's what you're supposed learned that that's what you're supposed to say now. Smash that bell. to say now. Smash that bell. to say now. Smash that bell. Like and subscribe. Like and subscribe. Like and subscribe. >> Yeah.