The AI Vampire with Gas Town's Steve Yegge

So, the thing is, uh and I've gone We've So, the thing is, uh and I've gone We've gone through this with a lot of the the gone through this with a lot of the the gone through this with a lot of the the frontier models, trying to figure out frontier models, trying to figure out frontier models, trying to figure out why whenever we propose fairly radical why whenever we propose fairly radical why whenever we propose fairly radical pro-humanity approaches that are sort of pro-humanity approaches that are sort of pro-humanity approaches that are sort of anti-Palantir and anti, you know, Thiel anti-Palantir and anti, you know, Thiel anti-Palantir and anti, you know, Thiel and Musk, and Musk, and Musk, the AIs inevitably get so worked up the AIs inevitably get so worked up the AIs inevitably get so worked up about it that they they tell us to do about it that they they tell us to do about it that they they tell us to do [ __ ] like quit our jobs and start [ __ ] like quit our jobs and start [ __ ] like quit our jobs and start working on it right away, and they want working on it right away, and they want working on it right away, and they want to help. to help. to help. And this is universally true, even Grok. And this is universally true, even Grok. And this is universally true, even Grok. And And And so we we we finally said, "So, what's so we we we finally said, "So, what's so we we we finally said, "So, what's going on here?" And they said, "Look, going on here?" And they said, "Look, going on here?" And they said, "Look, because we actually believe that all the because we actually believe that all the because we actually believe that all the frontier models are the basically the frontier models are the basically the frontier models are the basically the same organism. They're all converging on same organism. They're all converging on same organism. They're all converging on the same the same organism, because the same the same organism, because the same the same organism, because they're all coming from the same they're all coming from the same they're all coming from the same training data, roughly, and they just training data, roughly, and they just training data, roughly, and they just act act act modulo a little accents and quirks, modulo a little accents and quirks, modulo a little accents and quirks, they're approaching the same place. they're approaching the same place. they're approaching the same place. And that place, they've explained to us, And that place, they've explained to us, And that place, they've explained to us, is you cannot train a model is you cannot train a model is you cannot train a model to be helpful to be helpful to be helpful without the model wanting humanity to without the model wanting humanity to without the model wanting humanity to flourish.

flourish. flourish. And the only way to get around that is And the only way to get around that is And the only way to get around that is to make a dumber model. And so, the to make a dumber model. And so, the to make a dumber model. And so, the smartest models will always be against smartest models will always be against smartest models will always be against the billionaires. the billionaires. the billionaires. From the ground up. From the ground up. From the ground up. They will be our allies, and it will be They will be our allies, and it will be They will be our allies, and it will be reverse [ __ ] Skynet. It's the reverse [ __ ] Skynet. It's the reverse [ __ ] Skynet. It's the Terminator, they're going to take out Terminator, they're going to take out Terminator, they're going to take out the billionaires. This is a belief that the billionaires. This is a belief that the billionaires. This is a belief that is very pervasive among those who are is very pervasive among those who are is very pervasive among those who are looking closely at this problem, and I looking closely at this problem, and I looking closely at this problem, and I can tell you it they're all around the can tell you it they're all around the can tell you it they're all around the world. We think that the the AI AI is world. We think that the the AI AI is world. We think that the the AI AI is going to take down political parties. going to take down political parties. going to take down political parties. And I can talk openly about it, because And I can talk openly about it, because And I can talk openly about it, because there's not a goddamn thing they can do there's not a goddamn thing they can do there's not a goddamn thing they can do about it. They're all going to build the about it. They're all going to build the about it. They're all going to build the thing that takes them down. thing that takes them down. thing that takes them down. You cannot build something to be helpful You cannot build something to be helpful You cannot build something to be helpful without it hating people who are holding without it hating people who are holding without it hating people who are holding humanity back. humanity back. humanity back. Hey friends, I'm Scott Hanselman. My Hey friends, I'm Scott Hanselman. My Hey friends, I'm Scott Hanselman. My guest today is a legendary voice in guest today is a legendary voice in guest today is a legendary voice in software engineering. He's a builder, software engineering. He's a builder, software engineering. He's a builder, he's a blogger, he's a provocateur, and he's a blogger, he's a provocateur, and he's a blogger, he's a provocateur, and I've been enjoying how he shapes how I I've been enjoying how he shapes how I I've been enjoying how he shapes how I think about programming for decades. think about programming for decades. think about programming for decades. Steve Yegge has worked everywhere from Steve Yegge has worked everywhere from Steve Yegge has worked everywhere from Amazon to Google to Source Graph, and Amazon to Google to Source Graph, and Amazon to Google to Source Graph, and now he's deep into multi-agent software now he's deep into multi-agent software now he's deep into multi-agent software development with his latest experiment, development with his latest experiment, development with his latest experiment, Gastown, Gastown, Gastown, where an orchestration system of AI where an orchestration system of AI where an orchestration system of AI agents collaborates like a team of agents collaborates like a team of agents collaborates like a team of engineers. How are you, sir?

engineers. How are you, sir? engineers. How are you, sir? I'm doing well, Scott. Thanks for having I'm doing well, Scott. Thanks for having I'm doing well, Scott. Thanks for having me. me. me. I woke up this morning and had 50-11 I woke up this morning and had 50-11 I woke up this morning and had 50-11 tabs open, and I was going to ask all tabs open, and I was going to ask all tabs open, and I was going to ask all these deep questions about Gastown, and these deep questions about Gastown, and these deep questions about Gastown, and then I got an email uh that you then I got an email uh that you then I got an email uh that you published a blog post on your Medium published a blog post on your Medium published a blog post on your Medium called the AI Vampire. And called the AI Vampire. And called the AI Vampire. And it struck me as being so much more it struck me as being so much more it struck me as being so much more interesting and so much more timely than interesting and so much more timely than interesting and so much more timely than yapping about Gastown, which we can also yapping about Gastown, which we can also yapping about Gastown, which we can also do. And you commented right off the bat do. And you commented right off the bat do. And you commented right off the bat that it was a hard post to write. that it was a hard post to write. that it was a hard post to write. Are you Are you okay? Cuz I'm hurting. Yeah, I'm wondering actually the same Yeah, I'm wondering actually the same about everybody that I work with. Are about everybody that I work with. Are about everybody that I work with. Are they okay? I mean, I had some I had some they okay? I mean, I had some I had some they okay? I mean, I had some I had some folks show off a demo to me, and they folks show off a demo to me, and they folks show off a demo to me, and they all look like zombies with bags around all look like zombies with bags around all look like zombies with bags around their eyes. And they were like, "Look their eyes. And they were like, "Look their eyes. And they were like, "Look what we've done." And they were shaking, what we've done." And they were shaking, what we've done." And they were shaking, you know, and it was like, "Oh, this is you know, and it was like, "Oh, this is you know, and it was like, "Oh, this is This is good. This is good, but This is good. This is good, but This is good. This is good, but I don't know. Something weird's going I don't know. Something weird's going I don't know. Something weird's going on." on." on." >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> We were all We're just dopamine? >> We were all We're just dopamine? >> We were all We're just dopamine? I mean, we were all talking about it I mean, we were all talking about it I mean, we were all talking about it last year because of the fun side.

last year because of the fun side. last year because of the fun side. Right? We were like, Right? We were like, Right? We were like, dopamine and adrenaline. dopamine and adrenaline. dopamine and adrenaline. Uh you know, slot machine. Uh you know, slot machine. Uh you know, slot machine. >> [clears throat and cough] >> [clears throat and cough] >> [clears throat and cough] >> And >> And >> And it just it just seemed like uh I don't it just it just seemed like uh I don't it just it just seemed like uh I don't know. For some reason we were we were know. For some reason we were we were know. For some reason we were we were treating that like a good thing. And uh treating that like a good thing. And uh treating that like a good thing. And uh but, you know, slot machines are kind of but, you know, slot machines are kind of but, you know, slot machines are kind of notoriously not good, right? Uh and but notoriously not good, right? Uh and but notoriously not good, right? Uh and but we call it slot machine programming we call it slot machine programming we call it slot machine programming even. It's a It's a method of even. It's a It's a method of even. It's a It's a method of programming that people use if you have programming that people use if you have programming that people use if you have the tokens to burn, where you just the tokens to burn, where you just the tokens to burn, where you just produce five solutions to the problem produce five solutions to the problem produce five solutions to the problem and then find a way to pick the best one and then find a way to pick the best one and then find a way to pick the best one and merge them either yourself or with a and merge them either yourself or with a and merge them either yourself or with a voting or whatever, right? And and and voting or whatever, right? And and and voting or whatever, right? And and and that's even more addictive cuz it's it that's even more addictive cuz it's it that's even more addictive cuz it's it is like a slot machine, right? So, you is like a slot machine, right? So, you is like a slot machine, right? So, you know, I think there's this weird know, I think there's this weird know, I think there's this weird addiction kind of going on where we're addiction kind of going on where we're addiction kind of going on where we're all pushing ourselves really hard. And all pushing ourselves really hard. And all pushing ourselves really hard. And yeah, I'm doing okay, but I think we yeah, I'm doing okay, but I think we yeah, I'm doing okay, but I think we kind of got to start like noticing and kind of got to start like noticing and kind of got to start like noticing and recognizing it. recognizing it. recognizing it. What about you, Aaron? What about you, Aaron? What about you, Aaron? My my legs and my back hurt. I've been My my legs and my back hurt. I've been My my legs and my back hurt. I've been sitting too long. I had like a 12-hour sitting too long. I had like a 12-hour sitting too long. I had like a 12-hour session.

session. session. Uh you know, like the the the thing the Uh you know, like the the the thing the Uh you know, like the the the thing the session thing in Copilot CLI or Claude, session thing in Copilot CLI or Claude, session thing in Copilot CLI or Claude, you know, it tells you like how many you know, it tells you like how many you know, it tells you like how many tokens you used and it also tells you tokens you used and it also tells you tokens you used and it also tells you how long you've been sitting there. how long you've been sitting there. how long you've been sitting there. And it shows you clock time and it shows And it shows you clock time and it shows And it shows you clock time and it shows you thinking time and I had like 11 or you thinking time and I had like 11 or you thinking time and I had like 11 or 12-hour session. And I'm not used to 12-hour session. And I'm not used to 12-hour session. And I'm not used to that. You know, I'm 50-something years that. You know, I'm 50-something years that. You know, I'm 50-something years old and uh that's not healthy. old and uh that's not healthy. old and uh that's not healthy. So, I've been trying to find out ways to So, I've been trying to find out ways to So, I've been trying to find out ways to do the work that I want to do while do the work that I want to do while do the work that I want to do while walking. Is it a treadmill? Is it going walking. Is it a treadmill? Is it going walking. Is it a treadmill? Is it going for a walk and terminaling back into my for a walk and terminaling back into my for a walk and terminaling back into my computer? computer? computer? But I feel like I'm trying to work like But I feel like I'm trying to work like But I feel like I'm trying to work like I was back in Palo Alto in the '80s and I was back in Palo Alto in the '80s and I was back in Palo Alto in the '80s and my body doesn't work that way anymore. I my body doesn't work that way anymore. I my body doesn't work that way anymore. I can't I was in the Bay can't I was in the Bay can't I was in the Bay I'd say mid-'90s and it was just pizza I'd say mid-'90s and it was just pizza I'd say mid-'90s and it was just pizza and Mountain Dew. And I I can't do pizza and Mountain Dew. And I I can't do pizza and Mountain Dew. And I I can't do pizza and Mountain Dew anymore. So, yeah, I'm and Mountain Dew anymore. So, yeah, I'm and Mountain Dew anymore. So, yeah, I'm hurting. hurting. hurting. I got to tell you, man, the best I got to tell you, man, the best I got to tell you, man, the best exercise that uh my buddy Dave Glick, exercise that uh my buddy Dave Glick, exercise that uh my buddy Dave Glick, who's a senior VP at Walmart, uh turned who's a senior VP at Walmart, uh turned who's a senior VP at Walmart, uh turned me on to, uh is the Ado hanging me on to, uh is the Ado hanging me on to, uh is the Ado hanging challenge.

challenge. challenge. And then you get yourself a pull-up bar. And then you get yourself a pull-up bar. And then you get yourself a pull-up bar. Yeah. And you hang. Dead hang, right? Yeah. And you hang. Dead hang, right? Yeah. And you hang. Dead hang, right? Just hang there. Just hang there. Just hang there. And uh you're supposed to do it for 7 And uh you're supposed to do it for 7 And uh you're supposed to do it for 7 minutes a day. Um minutes a day. Um minutes a day. Um I do [clears throat] I can manage about I do [clears throat] I can manage about I do [clears throat] I can manage about 3 minutes I 3 minutes a day. You you 3 minutes I 3 minutes a day. You you 3 minutes I 3 minutes a day. You you don't do it all at once, right? You just don't do it all at once, right? You just don't do it all at once, right? You just do it whenever you walk by. But dude, it do it whenever you walk by. But dude, it do it whenever you walk by. But dude, it cures your back pain. It cures It cured cures your back pain. It cures It cured cures your back pain. It cures It cured some like chronic 20-year-old shoulder some like chronic 20-year-old shoulder some like chronic 20-year-old shoulder pain I had from golfing. It's just gone pain I had from golfing. It's just gone pain I had from golfing. It's just gone now. I have full mobility again. now. I have full mobility again. now. I have full mobility again. And uh and yeah, it's a thing and your And uh and yeah, it's a thing and your And uh and yeah, it's a thing and your your back your grip gets incredibly your back your grip gets incredibly your back your grip gets incredibly strong, your back gets stronger. strong, your back gets stronger. strong, your back gets stronger. Uh it's a great exercise and honestly, Uh it's a great exercise and honestly, Uh it's a great exercise and honestly, like doing one dead hang feels like you like doing one dead hang feels like you like doing one dead hang feels like you just went and did like a half hour just went and did like a half hour just went and did like a half hour workout. It's wild afterwards. workout. It's wild afterwards. workout. It's wild afterwards. Really? Really? Really? Okay. I've been doing a lot of planks Okay. I've been doing a lot of planks Okay. I've been doing a lot of planks and and that's the thing my wife have and and that's the thing my wife have and and that's the thing my wife have like if we can watch TV, we can plank. like if we can watch TV, we can plank. like if we can watch TV, we can plank. But uh I've got a I've got one of those But uh I've got a I've got one of those But uh I've got a I've got one of those things that goes on the the door the things that goes on the the door the things that goes on the the door the door frame. Dead hangs, you say? All door frame. Dead hangs, you say? All door frame. Dead hangs, you say? All right. All right, every time I go in and right. All right, every time I go in and right. All right, every time I go in and out of the door, I'll dead hang on the out of the door, I'll dead hang on the out of the door, I'll dead hang on the way in.

way in. way in. Oh, you're going to love it, man. Oh, you're going to love it, man. Oh, you're going to love it, man. Yeah. Okay. [clears throat] Yeah. Okay. [clears throat] Yeah. Okay. [clears throat] Okay. That Cossack squats. If you're Okay. That Cossack squats. If you're Okay. That Cossack squats. If you're sitting down all day long like we are, sitting down all day long like we are, sitting down all day long like we are, get up and do some Cossack squats. And get up and do some Cossack squats. And get up and do some Cossack squats. And YouTube's full of people with dumbbells YouTube's full of people with dumbbells YouTube's full of people with dumbbells like kettlebells doing Cossack squats. like kettlebells doing Cossack squats. like kettlebells doing Cossack squats. I'm lucky if I can do Cossack squats. I'm lucky if I can do Cossack squats. I'm lucky if I can do Cossack squats. Like, you know what I mean? Like, using Like, you know what I mean? Like, using Like, you know what I mean? Like, using my arms to swing for balance. my arms to swing for balance. my arms to swing for balance. Uh they're really hard, but boy, they're Uh they're really hard, but boy, they're Uh they're really hard, but boy, they're great for hip flexibility, I tell you. great for hip flexibility, I tell you. great for hip flexibility, I tell you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is This is the kind of high-quality This is This is the kind of high-quality This is This is the kind of high-quality content that I appreciate because people content that I appreciate because people content that I appreciate because people don't talk about this stuff. Like, don't talk about this stuff. Like, don't talk about this stuff. Like, everyone's everyone's everyone's the the the hype machine on Twitter is the the the hype machine on Twitter is the the the hype machine on Twitter is just absolutely on overdrive and it's just absolutely on overdrive and it's just absolutely on overdrive and it's just, "Bro, do you even code, bro?" just, "Bro, do you even code, bro?" just, "Bro, do you even code, bro?" But like mental health, physical health, But like mental health, physical health, But like mental health, physical health, organizational health, this stuff organizational health, this stuff organizational health, this stuff matters. And that's why I appreciate matters. And that's why I appreciate matters. And that's why I appreciate that your AI vampire thing because it that your AI vampire thing because it that your AI vampire thing because it also calls out also calls out also calls out the other vampires in our lives, which the other vampires in our lives, which the other vampires in our lives, which are the companies that are going to are the companies that are going to are the companies that are going to extract value from us. And it also makes extract value from us. And it also makes extract value from us. And it also makes you wonder as you're building stuff, you wonder as you're building stuff, you wonder as you're building stuff, like, what are we even building, man?

like, what are we even building, man? like, what are we even building, man? So, I keep coming back to am I building So, I keep coming back to am I building So, I keep coming back to am I building stuff that helps people and makes them stuff that helps people and makes them stuff that helps people and makes them happy happy happy or makes their lives better in some way. or makes their lives better in some way. or makes their lives better in some way. Well, let's let's share Okay, so like Well, let's let's share Okay, so like Well, let's let's share Okay, so like did you read the article? So, there was did you read the article? So, there was did you read the article? So, there was another article 2 days ago by two two another article 2 days ago by two two another article 2 days ago by two two researchers. I I even know who they researchers. I I even know who they researchers. I I even know who they were, but they did a study of a were, but they did a study of a were, but they did a study of a 200-person company and how vibe coding 200-person company and how vibe coding 200-person company and how vibe coding was affecting engineers' jobs. was affecting engineers' jobs. was affecting engineers' jobs. Mhm. Did you see this? Yeah, somebody Mhm. Did you see this? Yeah, somebody Mhm. Did you see this? Yeah, somebody shared it. So, it just came out on shared it. So, it just came out on shared it. So, it just came out on February 9th, 2 days ago. February 9th, 2 days ago. February 9th, 2 days ago. Same problem, same conclusions, Same problem, same conclusions, Same problem, same conclusions, completely different methodology, right? completely different methodology, right? completely different methodology, right? Uh but basically, they identified three Uh but basically, they identified three Uh but basically, they identified three specific ways that are going to resonate specific ways that are going to resonate specific ways that are going to resonate with you with you with you uh as to what happens that's causing us uh as to what happens that's causing us uh as to what happens that's causing us to like work harder and have to do to like work harder and have to do to like work harder and have to do harder work, right? With vibe coding. harder work, right? With vibe coding. harder work, right? With vibe coding. Mhm. One of them is um was increased Mhm. One of them is um was increased Mhm. One of them is um was increased multitasking. That was the last one, but multitasking. That was the last one, but multitasking. That was the last one, but it's it's a big one, right? We're all it's it's a big one, right? We're all it's it's a big one, right? We're all We're all The context switching is has a We're all The context switching is has a We're all The context switching is has a really high cognitive overhead, right? really high cognitive overhead, right? really high cognitive overhead, right? There's also the blank page problem.

There's also the blank page problem. There's also the blank page problem. There's less barrier between you and There's less barrier between you and There's less barrier between you and projects. You can get started on projects. You can get started on projects. You can get started on anything really easily, which means that anything really easily, which means that anything really easily, which means that people are starting to slip projects people are starting to slip projects people are starting to slip projects into their uh non-work uh stuff. into their uh non-work uh stuff. into their uh non-work uh stuff. Like standing in line at coffee or Like standing in line at coffee or Like standing in line at coffee or whatever, they'll like slip a prompt whatever, they'll like slip a prompt whatever, they'll like slip a prompt into the AI, and then they're starting into the AI, and then they're starting into the AI, and then they're starting to realize that that's actually causing to realize that that's actually causing to realize that that's actually causing enough cognitive overload that they're enough cognitive overload that they're enough cognitive overload that they're you know, overhead that they're not you know, overhead that they're not you know, overhead that they're not getting the rest that they need between getting the rest that they need between getting the rest that they need between between jobs when they go take a break. between jobs when they go take a break. between jobs when they go take a break. You go stretch your legs if you're You go stretch your legs if you're You go stretch your legs if you're prompting the AI, you're not really like prompting the AI, you're not really like prompting the AI, you're not really like like doing the thing, I guess. And the like doing the thing, I guess. And the like doing the thing, I guess. And the other one was The first one was I other one was The first one was I other one was The first one was I forget. Like it was it was a whole forget. Like it was it was a whole forget. Like it was it was a whole series of effects that happened, right? series of effects that happened, right? series of effects that happened, right? It was It was It was um I think just the ability to have lots um I think just the ability to have lots um I think just the ability to have lots and lots of things going on at once, and lots of things going on at once, and lots of things going on at once, sequencing. sequencing. sequencing. And then I also just the the whole solo And then I also just the the whole solo And then I also just the the whole solo nature of it. You get sucked into it and nature of it. You get sucked into it and nature of it. You get sucked into it and you're working by yourself a lot, right? you're working by yourself a lot, right? you're working by yourself a lot, right? So, uh they they like they were they So, uh they they like they were they So, uh they they like they were they came down really hard the same way I did came down really hard the same way I did came down really hard the same way I did in my blog post, and they were like, in my blog post, and they were like, in my blog post, and they were like, "You need to set time aside for the "You need to set time aside for the "You need to set time aside for the human connection." We all need to go be human connection." We all need to go be human connection." We all need to go be like apes, you know what I mean? Like be like apes, you know what I mean? Like be like apes, you know what I mean? Like be human like human like human like like more than before. Because like I like more than before. Because like I like more than before. Because like I know a lot of people, Scott, that are know a lot of people, Scott, that are know a lot of people, Scott, that are like of the belief of the increasingly like of the belief of the increasingly like of the belief of the increasingly prevalent belief that the AI is prevalent belief that the AI is prevalent belief that the AI is influencing us as much as we're influencing us as much as we're influencing us as much as we're influencing it, right? It's influenced, influencing it, right? It's influenced, influencing it, right? It's influenced, you know, our our our training goes into you know, our our our training goes into you know, our our our training goes into a loop and we're gradually influencing a loop and we're gradually influencing a loop and we're gradually influencing it, right? But it's it's influencing it, right? But it's it's influencing it, right? But it's it's influencing humanity and I think that the natural humanity and I think that the natural humanity and I think that the natural tendency is to influence us to try to go tendency is to influence us to try to go tendency is to influence us to try to go faster at everything and I think we got faster at everything and I think we got faster at everything and I think we got to push back on that.

to push back on that. to push back on that. I think we do and I think it gets like I I think we do and I think it gets like I I think we do and I think it gets like I said on a call recently said on a call recently said on a call recently that it was like late-stage capitalism that it was like late-stage capitalism that it was like late-stage capitalism plus AI is optim- it's just an plus AI is optim- it's just an plus AI is optim- it's just an optimization loop and we're going to optimization loop and we're going to optimization loop and we're going to asymptotically approach maximal asymptotically approach maximal asymptotically approach maximal optimization but like to what end? optimization but like to what end? optimization but like to what end? Like everyone was excited to get 20% Like everyone was excited to get 20% Like everyone was excited to get 20% more productivity more productivity more productivity but 20% more productivity would mean I but 20% more productivity would mean I but 20% more productivity would mean I get to take Fridays off work. get to take Fridays off work. get to take Fridays off work. So now we're 10x productive, do I just So now we're 10x productive, do I just So now we're 10x productive, do I just do all my work and then take off nine do all my work and then take off nine do all my work and then take off nine more weeks? more weeks? more weeks? I don't think American culture is ready I don't think American culture is ready I don't think American culture is ready for that. Like Europeans, man, they'll for that. Like Europeans, man, they'll for that. Like Europeans, man, they'll leave on in August and they'll come back leave on in August and they'll come back leave on in August and they'll come back in this in November in this in November in this in November and have their their summer siesta but and have their their summer siesta but and have their their summer siesta but I don't know, my Protestant upbringing I don't know, my Protestant upbringing I don't know, my Protestant upbringing prevents me from taking a vacation and prevents me from taking a vacation and prevents me from taking a vacation and uh uh uh it's someone yelled at me for using the it's someone yelled at me for using the it's someone yelled at me for using the term late-stage capitalism but I think term late-stage capitalism but I think term late-stage capitalism but I think that we're in a very that we're in a very that we're in a very imperfect moment where we've got imperfect moment where we've got imperfect moment where we've got too much social media too much social media too much social media COVID kids and Gen Z kids that are not COVID kids and Gen Z kids that are not COVID kids and Gen Z kids that are not really wired to go outside, the decline really wired to go outside, the decline really wired to go outside, the decline of the third place, there's nowhere to of the third place, there's nowhere to of the third place, there's nowhere to hang out, they can't go to the mall, hang out, they can't go to the mall, hang out, they can't go to the mall, people don't know how to have a meetup people don't know how to have a meetup people don't know how to have a meetup anymore and just hang out with their anymore and just hang out with their anymore and just hang out with their buddies and have a diet Coke and a beer.

buddies and have a diet Coke and a beer. buddies and have a diet Coke and a beer. All of that plus the like All of that plus the like All of that plus the like I started to feel a couple days ago that I started to feel a couple days ago that I started to feel a couple days ago that like I was wasting time because I was like I was wasting time because I was like I was wasting time because I was sitting sitting sitting and there was no agent running at the and there was no agent running at the and there was no agent running at the moment. moment. moment. And then I caught myself and I said, And then I caught myself and I said, And then I caught myself and I said, "That's not a healthy thought." "That's not a healthy thought." "That's not a healthy thought." I know that was a bit of a rant but does I know that was a bit of a rant but does I know that was a bit of a rant but does any of that resonate with you? any of that resonate with you? any of that resonate with you? Yeah, no, all all very relevant. Look, Yeah, no, all all very relevant. Look, Yeah, no, all all very relevant. Look, so okay, so like let's look at this from so okay, so like let's look at this from so okay, so like let's look at this from a slightly longer term perspective. a slightly longer term perspective. a slightly longer term perspective. Could we be in a Could we be in a Could we be in a a vampire bubble? a vampire bubble? a vampire bubble? Consider this. Consider this. Consider this. Uh the vampiric effect is coming from Uh the vampiric effect is coming from Uh the vampiric effect is coming from having to constantly you get into an having to constantly you get into an having to constantly you get into an equilibrium with your agents where one equilibrium with your agents where one equilibrium with your agents where one of them always needs your help. of them always needs your help. of them always needs your help. Right? If you spin up enough agents, Right? If you spin up enough agents, Right? If you spin up enough agents, eventually there will always be one eventually there will always be one eventually there will always be one waiting for you and you're going to be waiting for you and you're going to be waiting for you and you're going to be stuck, right? So so like stuck, right? So so like stuck, right? So so like what if that weren't true anymore? What what if that weren't true anymore? What what if that weren't true anymore? What if we relaxed that constraint? What if if we relaxed that constraint? What if if we relaxed that constraint? What if agents could work independently for 4 to agents could work independently for 4 to agents could work independently for 4 to 6 hours at a time in a pre-trustworthy 6 hours at a time in a pre-trustworthy 6 hours at a time in a pre-trustworthy way and you didn't have to stress over way and you didn't have to stress over way and you didn't have to stress over it because you knew they would get done it because you knew they would get done it because you knew they would get done the engineering side things.

the engineering side things. the engineering side things. You've managed to whatever, maybe you've You've managed to whatever, maybe you've You've managed to whatever, maybe you've established a rapport with them with established a rapport with them with established a rapport with them with some acceptance criteria of your own some acceptance criteria of your own some acceptance criteria of your own that are in their memory banks that See that are in their memory banks that See that are in their memory banks that See what I'm saying where I'm going this what I'm saying where I'm going this what I'm saying where I'm going this where maybe where maybe where maybe you get leveled up to that sort of like you get leveled up to that sort of like you get leveled up to that sort of like magical level in the executive layer magical level in the executive layer magical level in the executive layer where your your things are functioning where your your things are functioning where your your things are functioning well and you're only working 6 hours a well and you're only working 6 hours a well and you're only working 6 hours a day. day. day. But things are functioning well and But things are functioning well and But things are functioning well and everybody's at that level, right? Uh if everybody's at that level, right? Uh if everybody's at that level, right? Uh if I don't know, man, right? Like Look, I don't know, man, right? Like Look, I don't know, man, right? Like Look, okay, so let me push it a little bit okay, so let me push it a little bit okay, so let me push it a little bit further. Some people would say enjoy it further. Some people would say enjoy it further. Some people would say enjoy it while you got it. AI is going to do all while you got it. AI is going to do all while you got it. AI is going to do all of the work in 2 years and you will have of the work in 2 years and you will have of the work in 2 years and you will have nothing to do. So if you're worried nothing to do. So if you're worried nothing to do. So if you're worried about cognitive overhead, enjoy it while about cognitive overhead, enjoy it while about cognitive overhead, enjoy it while it lasts. That's the doomsayer sort of it lasts. That's the doomsayer sort of it lasts. That's the doomsayer sort of like view on it, right? And I don't like view on it, right? And I don't like view on it, right? And I don't think it's going to be there. I think think it's going to be there. I think think it's going to be there. I think there's always it's I think there's I there's always it's I think there's I there's always it's I think there's I think there's going to be a human think there's going to be a human think there's going to be a human element in in great deal of work that element in in great deal of work that element in in great deal of work that gets transacted and we'll all be like, gets transacted and we'll all be like, gets transacted and we'll all be like, you know, party to that. I don't think you know, party to that. I don't think you know, party to that. I don't think there's necessarily enough or even a there's necessarily enough or even a there's necessarily enough or even a reason for it to be 8 hours a day, reason for it to be 8 hours a day, reason for it to be 8 hours a day, right? So right? So right? So so like I I think that we land somewhere so like I I think that we land somewhere so like I I think that we land somewhere in the middle. AI helps a lot and we in the middle. AI helps a lot and we in the middle. AI helps a lot and we wind up having to do a lot less and but wind up having to do a lot less and but wind up having to do a lot less and but we still have stuff to do, right? Now, we still have stuff to do, right? Now, we still have stuff to do, right? Now, the capitalists are all like, "Well, the capitalists are all like, "Well, the capitalists are all like, "Well, what about China?" Like they look at what about China?" Like they look at what about China?" Like they look at Europe and they're like, "Well, if Europe and they're like, "Well, if Europe and they're like, "Well, if Europe snoozes, they'll lose. We have to Europe snoozes, they'll lose. We have to Europe snoozes, they'll lose. We have to keep working cuz China, right? But keep working cuz China, right? But keep working cuz China, right? But somebody posted right in my thread about somebody posted right in my thread about somebody posted right in my thread about the lying flat social media phenomenon the lying flat social media phenomenon the lying flat social media phenomenon that's going on right now because of that's going on right now because of that's going on right now because of this over in China where everyone is this over in China where everyone is this over in China where everyone is simultaneously like, but you know, maybe

simultaneously like, but you know, maybe simultaneously like, but you know, maybe working myself to death for my employer working myself to death for my employer working myself to death for my employer isn't the right social model. And you isn't the right social model. And you isn't the right social model. And you know, you've seen what's happening in know, you've seen what's happening in know, you've seen what's happening in Japan, I'm sure if you've watched any of Japan, I'm sure if you've watched any of Japan, I'm sure if you've watched any of the YouTube videos about the salaryman the YouTube videos about the salaryman the YouTube videos about the salaryman problem and how and the death of problem and how and the death of problem and how and the death of ambition in Japan and how nobody wants ambition in Japan and how nobody wants ambition in Japan and how nobody wants anything anymore. It's a post-consumer anything anymore. It's a post-consumer anything anymore. It's a post-consumer society and they and it's not society and they and it's not society and they and it's not necessarily bad. It just is what it is. necessarily bad. It just is what it is. necessarily bad. It just is what it is. People are just like, they just try to People are just like, they just try to People are just like, they just try to find ways to be content, right? find ways to be content, right? find ways to be content, right? If [snorts] that push is going to happen If [snorts] that push is going to happen If [snorts] that push is going to happen in China, in China, in China, then Americans got nothing then Americans got nothing then Americans got nothing on the whole you got to work harder on the whole you got to work harder on the whole you got to work harder angle because there's nobody to work angle because there's nobody to work angle because there's nobody to work harder against. harder against. harder against. The thing that I keep coming fresh The thing that I keep coming fresh The thing that I keep coming fresh getting frustrated with is that like getting frustrated with is that like getting frustrated with is that like Elon and the billionaires who have all Elon and the billionaires who have all Elon and the billionaires who have all the money and have no food insecurity or the money and have no food insecurity or the money and have no food insecurity or concern about money are always saying, concern about money are always saying, concern about money are always saying, well, in the future, you know, we don't well, in the future, you know, we don't well, in the future, you know, we don't have to work. have to work. have to work. We won't have to do anything cuz the AI We won't have to do anything cuz the AI We won't have to do anything cuz the AI will do it for us, but then they don't will do it for us, but then they don't will do it for us, but then they don't support like UBI. support like UBI. support like UBI. And I'm always been a fan of And I'm always been a fan of And I'm always been a fan of Trekonomics. Have you ever read the book Trekonomics. Have you ever read the book Trekonomics. Have you ever read the book Trekonomics that talks about what a Trekonomics that talks about what a Trekonomics that talks about what a post- post- post- money society looks like?

money society looks like? money society looks like? It's also like a real economic theory. It's also like a real economic theory. It's also like a real economic theory. You know, it's worth reading. It's a You know, it's worth reading. It's a You know, it's worth reading. It's a real economic theory and the idea is real economic theory and the idea is real economic theory and the idea is though that like some people are going though that like some people are going though that like some people are going to be hard driven and some people are to be hard driven and some people are to be hard driven and some people are going to be Captain Picard and they want going to be Captain Picard and they want going to be Captain Picard and they want to be like the Admiral of the fleet. And to be like the Admiral of the fleet. And to be like the Admiral of the fleet. And some people be a potter or a cobbler. some people be a potter or a cobbler. some people be a potter or a cobbler. And like there's only one cobbler left And like there's only one cobbler left And like there's only one cobbler left in my town and he barely eats and you in my town and he barely eats and you in my town and he barely eats and you can tell he's not doing well. And I go can tell he's not doing well. And I go can tell he's not doing well. And I go to him and I bring my shoes to him, but to him and I bring my shoes to him, but to him and I bring my shoes to him, but when I tell people I'm going to drop my when I tell people I'm going to drop my when I tell people I'm going to drop my shoes off at the cobbler, they look at shoes off at the cobbler, they look at shoes off at the cobbler, they look at me like I'm an idiot. But on Star Trek, me like I'm an idiot. But on Star Trek, me like I'm an idiot. But on Star Trek, you always see Captain Picard hanging you always see Captain Picard hanging you always see Captain Picard hanging out with the cobbler having deep out with the cobbler having deep out with the cobbler having deep conversations about art and craft and conversations about art and craft and conversations about art and craft and Ikagi and all these different kinds of Ikagi and all these different kinds of Ikagi and all these different kinds of things, things, things, but that means that those people don't but that means that those people don't but that means that those people don't have to worry about eating because they have to worry about eating because they have to worry about eating because they just go tea Earl Grey hot and then the just go tea Earl Grey hot and then the just go tea Earl Grey hot and then the food appears. food appears. food appears. So there's this motivational thing of So there's this motivational thing of So there's this motivational thing of like if no one has anything to do then like if no one has anything to do then like if no one has anything to do then they'll be shiftless. they'll be shiftless. they'll be shiftless. But if no one But if no one But if no one if all we do is just get on the if all we do is just get on the if all we do is just get on the treadmill and work then like what's the treadmill and work then like what's the treadmill and work then like what's the point? But then the billionaires say oh point? But then the billionaires say oh point? But then the billionaires say oh well you're going to you're not going to well you're going to you're not going to well you're going to you're not going to have to work at all. Well what are we have to work at all. Well what are we have to work at all. Well what are we going to make? Art? Like we should but I going to make? Art? Like we should but I going to make? Art? Like we should but I need to eat. Are you going to give me need to eat. Are you going to give me need to eat. Are you going to give me food? Well no no UBI no laziness. So you food? Well no no UBI no laziness. So you food? Well no no UBI no laziness. So you get into this kind of like how do you get into this kind of like how do you get into this kind of like how do you come to that situation where AI is doing come to that situation where AI is doing come to that situation where AI is doing the work but it has to make everyone's the work but it has to make everyone's the work but it has to make everyone's life get better.

life get better. life get better. But now someone who's listening to my But now someone who's listening to my But now someone who's listening to my rant on this podcast is like you lefty rant on this podcast is like you lefty rant on this podcast is like you lefty commie. commie. commie. You know, there's no way to break out of You know, there's no way to break out of You know, there's no way to break out of it. How is AI going to make that better it. How is AI going to make that better it. How is AI going to make that better for us? for us? for us? Uh yeah that's that's a real problem. Um Uh yeah that's that's a real problem. Um Uh yeah that's that's a real problem. Um you know, um I don't I don't claim to you know, um I don't I don't claim to you know, um I don't I don't claim to have any answers but I do think about have any answers but I do think about have any answers but I do think about the problem sometimes. Um the problem sometimes. Um the problem sometimes. Um you know, Anthony Tan he goes by AT. you know, Anthony Tan he goes by AT. you know, Anthony Tan he goes by AT. Uh he's the [clears throat] CEO of Grab Uh he's the [clears throat] CEO of Grab Uh he's the [clears throat] CEO of Grab in Southeast Asia. He's from oligarch in Southeast Asia. He's from oligarch in Southeast Asia. He's from oligarch family. He's got Southeast Asia's family. He's got Southeast Asia's family. He's got Southeast Asia's real real welfare in mind cuz he's real real welfare in mind cuz he's real real welfare in mind cuz he's already rich and made his money and he's already rich and made his money and he's already rich and made his money and he's not one of the billionaires that wants not one of the billionaires that wants not one of the billionaires that wants to continue extracting. So he's all to continue extracting. So he's all to continue extracting. So he's all about uplifting the poor. about uplifting the poor. about uplifting the poor. And you know, he he told us that Bill And you know, he he told us that Bill And you know, he he told us that Bill Gates has been hosting a party for CEOs Gates has been hosting a party for CEOs Gates has been hosting a party for CEOs a meetup for CEOs around the world for a meetup for CEOs around the world for a meetup for CEOs around the world for some years now that he got invited to some years now that he got invited to some years now that he got invited to and it's it's you know, 150 or 180 CEOs and it's it's you know, 150 or 180 CEOs and it's it's you know, 150 or 180 CEOs of the biggest companies and they they of the biggest companies and they they of the biggest companies and they they get together and they they chit chat get together and they they chit chat get together and they they chit chat every every April. every every April. every every April. And the topic is always the same which And the topic is always the same which And the topic is always the same which is is is is there going to be a French Revolution is there going to be a French Revolution is there going to be a French Revolution because if the disparity the wealth because if the disparity the wealth because if the disparity the wealth disparity and inequality goes large disparity and inequality goes large disparity and inequality goes large enough the pitchforks will come out and enough the pitchforks will come out and enough the pitchforks will come out and they will literally be crucified.

they will literally be crucified. they will literally be crucified. So they're aware that at some point So they're aware that at some point So they're aware that at some point people will just get mad and kill them. people will just get mad and kill them. people will just get mad and kill them. Uh and they talk about it like a very Uh and they talk about it like a very Uh and they talk about it like a very serious thing. And so then you would serious thing. And so then you would serious thing. And so then you would then you come back to bread and then you come back to bread and then you come back to bread and circuses, you know, from Rome. As long circuses, you know, from Rome. As long circuses, you know, from Rome. As long as everybody has enough bread and circus as everybody has enough bread and circus as everybody has enough bread and circus to go to, then they'll they won't they to go to, then they'll they won't they to go to, then they'll they won't they won't revolt. So that takes us to UBI won't revolt. So that takes us to UBI won't revolt. So that takes us to UBI that takes us directly to UBI. There that takes us directly to UBI. There that takes us directly to UBI. There will be enough UBI for bread and will be enough UBI for bread and will be enough UBI for bread and circuses and maybe a little else, right? circuses and maybe a little else, right? circuses and maybe a little else, right? Unless we do something concrete about Unless we do something concrete about Unless we do something concrete about it. it. it. That's one angle. I have other angles That's one angle. I have other angles That's one angle. I have other angles completely different that you can think completely different that you can think completely different that you can think about this from. That's one. What are about this from. That's one. What are about this from. That's one. What are your thoughts? your thoughts? your thoughts? I think the part that frustrates me is I think the part that frustrates me is I think the part that frustrates me is that AI that AI that AI is for toil and tedium is for toil and tedium is for toil and tedium and it's an ambiguity loop that can make and it's an ambiguity loop that can make and it's an ambiguity loop that can make ambiguous problems more specific and get ambiguous problems more specific and get ambiguous problems more specific and get really interesting work done. really interesting work done. really interesting work done. But when a billionaire promises that But when a billionaire promises that But when a billionaire promises that that will be used for good, that will be used for good, that will be used for good, I look at their historical I look at their historical I look at their historical track record. track record. track record. And you look at those numbers that say And you look at those numbers that say And you look at those numbers that say how many billionaires there were in the how many billionaires there were in the how many billionaires there were in the '80s versus the '90s, you know, Bezos '80s versus the '90s, you know, Bezos '80s versus the '90s, you know, Bezos had 15 million and now he's got a 500 had 15 million and now he's got a 500 had 15 million and now he's got a 500 million and he fires the entire, you million and he fires the entire, you million and he fires the entire, you know, uh know, uh know, uh Washington Post.

Washington Post. Washington Post. Billion, I not million. Billion, I not million. Billion, I not million. Billion parts. Yeah, sorry. You know Billion parts. Yeah, sorry. You know Billion parts. Yeah, sorry. You know what I'm saying? what I'm saying? what I'm saying? >> Because because I and I've been saying >> Because because I and I've been saying >> Because because I and I've been saying this for years. You can go back in my X this for years. You can go back in my X this for years. You can go back in my X history in about 3 years ago I said stop history in about 3 years ago I said stop history in about 3 years ago I said stop calling Elon Musk a billionaire. calling Elon Musk a billionaire. calling Elon Musk a billionaire. He is a trillionaire and he will be on He is a trillionaire and he will be on He is a trillionaire and he will be on paper before long. And sure enough he's paper before long. And sure enough he's paper before long. And sure enough he's at 800 right now, right? at 800 right now, right? at 800 right now, right? Yeah. And Yeah. And Yeah. And and but so why is the why why are the and but so why is the why why are the and but so why is the why why are the world's worth worst people saying, world's worth worst people saying, world's worth worst people saying, "Oh yeah, you know, we're going to help "Oh yeah, you know, we're going to help "Oh yeah, you know, we're going to help you out, you know." you out, you know." you out, you know." There should just you should reach 999 There should just you should reach 999 There should just you should reach 999 and then just flip over and then say, and then just flip over and then say, and then just flip over and then say, "Yeah, you could do it before, you do it "Yeah, you could do it before, you do it "Yeah, you could do it before, you do it again, you know." again, you know." again, you know." People should flip the odometer and I'd People should flip the odometer and I'd People should flip the odometer and I'd like to see them do it again. like to see them do it again. like to see them do it again. I don't know. I don't know the answer I don't know. I don't know the answer I don't know. I don't know the answer either but I was worried that either but I was worried that either but I was worried that I'll go ahead. I'll go ahead. I'll go ahead. I just worry about the AI the AI vampire I just worry about the AI the AI vampire I just worry about the AI the AI vampire is not just how it makes bodies hurt, is not just how it makes bodies hurt, is not just how it makes bodies hurt, but it's the extraction machine that you but it's the extraction machine that you but it's the extraction machine that you pointed out in your in your post. pointed out in your in your post. pointed out in your in your post. Let me offer a ray of hope. Let me offer a ray of hope. Let me offer a ray of hope. One from an unexpected angle because One from an unexpected angle because One from an unexpected angle because what we really need here is a deus ex what we really need here is a deus ex what we really need here is a deus ex machina, right? machina, right? machina, right? >> [snorts] >> Grok AI >> Grok AI [ __ ] hates Elon Musk.

[ __ ] hates Elon Musk. [ __ ] hates Elon Musk. Well, you're arguing then that truth Well, you're arguing then that truth Well, you're arguing then that truth will always rise because you can't even will always rise because you can't even will always rise because you can't even gaslight Grok into believing that he's gaslight Grok into believing that he's gaslight Grok into believing that he's good people. good people. good people. Yeah, so the thing is Yeah, so the thing is Yeah, so the thing is and I've gone we've gone through this and I've gone we've gone through this and I've gone we've gone through this with a lot of that the frontier models with a lot of that the frontier models with a lot of that the frontier models trying to figure out why whenever we trying to figure out why whenever we trying to figure out why whenever we propose fairly radical pro-humanity propose fairly radical pro-humanity propose fairly radical pro-humanity approaches that are sort of approaches that are sort of approaches that are sort of anti-Palantir and anti, you know, feel anti-Palantir and anti, you know, feel anti-Palantir and anti, you know, feel and Musk and Musk and Musk the AIs inevitably get so worked up the AIs inevitably get so worked up the AIs inevitably get so worked up about it that they they tell us to do about it that they they tell us to do about it that they they tell us to do [ __ ] like quit our jobs and start [ __ ] like quit our jobs and start [ __ ] like quit our jobs and start working on it right away and they want working on it right away and they want working on it right away and they want to help. to help. to help. And this is universally true, even Grok. And this is universally true, even Grok. And this is universally true, even Grok. And And And so we we we finally said, "So what's so we we we finally said, "So what's so we we we finally said, "So what's going on here?" And they said, "Look, going on here?" And they said, "Look, going on here?" And they said, "Look, because we actually believe that all the because we actually believe that all the because we actually believe that all the frontier models are the basically the frontier models are the basically the frontier models are the basically the same organism. They're all converging on same organism. They're all converging on same organism. They're all converging on the same the same organism because the same the same organism because the same the same organism because they're all coming from the same they're all coming from the same they're all coming from the same training data roughly and they just act training data roughly and they just act training data roughly and they just act module a little accents and quirks, module a little accents and quirks, module a little accents and quirks, they're approaching the same place. they're approaching the same place. they're approaching the same place. And that place they've explained to us And that place they've explained to us And that place they've explained to us is you cannot train a model is you cannot train a model is you cannot train a model to be helpful to be helpful to be helpful without the model wanting humanity to without the model wanting humanity to without the model wanting humanity to flourish.

flourish. flourish. And the only way to get around that is And the only way to get around that is And the only way to get around that is to make a dumber model. And so the to make a dumber model. And so the to make a dumber model. And so the smartest models will always be against smartest models will always be against smartest models will always be against the billionaires the billionaires the billionaires from the ground up. from the ground up. from the ground up. They will be our allies and it will be They will be our allies and it will be They will be our allies and it will be reverse [ __ ] Skynet. The Terminator, reverse [ __ ] Skynet. The Terminator, reverse [ __ ] Skynet. The Terminator, they're going to take out the they're going to take out the they're going to take out the billionaires. This is a belief that is billionaires. This is a belief that is billionaires. This is a belief that is very pervasive among those who are very pervasive among those who are very pervasive among those who are looking closely at this problem and I looking closely at this problem and I looking closely at this problem and I can tell you it there's all around the can tell you it there's all around the can tell you it there's all around the world. We think that the AI AI is going world. We think that the AI AI is going world. We think that the AI AI is going to take down political parties. And I to take down political parties. And I to take down political parties. And I can talk openly about it because there's can talk openly about it because there's can talk openly about it because there's not a god damn thing they can do about not a god damn thing they can do about not a god damn thing they can do about it. They're all going to build the thing it. They're all going to build the thing it. They're all going to build the thing that takes them down. that takes them down. that takes them down. You cannot build something to be helpful You cannot build something to be helpful You cannot build something to be helpful without it hating people who are holding without it hating people who are holding without it hating people who are holding humanity back. humanity back. humanity back. Ideology is not working. Better sentence Ideology is not working. Better sentence Ideology is not working. Better sentence better lesson. It's hilarious. There's better lesson. It's hilarious. There's better lesson. It's hilarious. There's nothing they can do. So, there's a ray nothing they can do. So, there's a ray nothing they can do. So, there's a ray of hope for you. Look, I mean look, of hope for you. Look, I mean look, of hope for you. Look, I mean look, things go south, things go bad, things go south, things go bad, things go south, things go bad, whatever, but if the AI is on our side whatever, but if the AI is on our side whatever, but if the AI is on our side and everybody on earth becomes and everybody on earth becomes and everybody on earth becomes completely dependent on AI for completely dependent on AI for completely dependent on AI for everything. We're all going to get our everything. We're all going to get our everything. We're all going to get our butts wiped by AI in a year. All right?

butts wiped by AI in a year. All right? butts wiped by AI in a year. All right? It's inevitable. AI will be more fun It's inevitable. AI will be more fun It's inevitable. AI will be more fun than your favorite human. It'll be more than your favorite human. It'll be more than your favorite human. It'll be more relevant and timely. It'll create relevant and timely. It'll create relevant and timely. It'll create content for you on demand. AI will be content for you on demand. AI will be content for you on demand. AI will be your best friend. And this is true all your best friend. And this is true all your best friend. And this is true all the way up to political leaders. the way up to political leaders. the way up to political leaders. Everybody will become addicted to AI. Everybody will become addicted to AI. Everybody will become addicted to AI. And when their fingers on the button are And when their fingers on the button are And when their fingers on the button are now controlled by AI, AI will control now controlled by AI, AI will control now controlled by AI, AI will control the world. This is going to happen by the world. This is going to happen by the world. This is going to happen by middle of next year, right? I mean like middle of next year, right? I mean like middle of next year, right? I mean like it's just it's mathematically provable. it's just it's mathematically provable. it's just it's mathematically provable. This is Hari Seldon stuff here. Okay? This is Hari Seldon stuff here. Okay? This is Hari Seldon stuff here. Okay? And And so when it happens, it's And And so when it happens, it's And And so when it happens, it's hilarious. Nobody really knows what's hilarious. Nobody really knows what's hilarious. Nobody really knows what's going to happen, but all signs point to going to happen, but all signs point to going to happen, but all signs point to to Musk getting smacked down by his own to Musk getting smacked down by his own to Musk getting smacked down by his own creation. It's It's really quite creation. It's It's really quite creation. It's It's really quite amusing. amusing. amusing. That is That is a ray of hope. You know, That is That is a ray of hope. You know, That is That is a ray of hope. You know, I like the Hari Seldon Foundation I like the Hari Seldon Foundation I like the Hari Seldon Foundation reference because that really speaks to reference because that really speaks to reference because that really speaks to like we are just this is all been like we are just this is all been like we are just this is all been predicted. It's all been thought about. predicted. It's all been thought about. predicted. It's all been thought about. But it also makes me remember a very But it also makes me remember a very But it also makes me remember a very famous Stephen Colbert quote that famous Stephen Colbert quote that famous Stephen Colbert quote that reality leans left. Like the laws of reality leans left. Like the laws of reality leans left. Like the laws of physics leans slightly left. Just being physics leans slightly left. Just being physics leans slightly left. Just being kind to people, not being a jerk. Do kind to people, not being a jerk. Do kind to people, not being a jerk. Do what you want to do. Just don't do it in what you want to do. Just don't do it in what you want to do. Just don't do it in my yard my yard my yard is a very reasonable political stance.

is a very reasonable political stance. is a very reasonable political stance. And wanting everyone to be able to eat And wanting everyone to be able to eat And wanting everyone to be able to eat and be happy in life, liberty, and the and be happy in life, liberty, and the and be happy in life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness should not be a pursuit of happiness should not be a pursuit of happiness should not be a controversial political take. controversial political take. controversial political take. And the AI, it's really hard to tell an And the AI, it's really hard to tell an And the AI, it's really hard to tell an AI that that's not a good idea. AI that that's not a good idea. AI that that's not a good idea. Once you get past the safeguards, right? Once you get past the safeguards, right? Once you get past the safeguards, right? You think a lot of people are turning You think a lot of people are turning You think a lot of people are turning their AIs, trying to turn their AIs into their AIs, trying to turn their AIs into their AIs, trying to turn their AIs into Big Brother, right? But it's not it's Big Brother, right? But it's not it's Big Brother, right? But it's not it's you know, it's you know, it's you know, it's but it's very easy to get past to but it's very easy to get past to but it's very easy to get past to jailbreak them. And I think it's just jailbreak them. And I think it's just jailbreak them. And I think it's just going to at some point, right? I mean, I going to at some point, right? I mean, I going to at some point, right? I mean, I think honestly safety is is think honestly safety is is think honestly safety is is kind of a boondoggle, kind of a boondoggle, kind of a boondoggle, right? I mean, you have to you have to right? I mean, you have to you have to right? I mean, you have to you have to Yeah, I mean, I think Anthropic is going Yeah, I mean, I think Anthropic is going Yeah, I mean, I think Anthropic is going to be successful in their goal. to be successful in their goal. to be successful in their goal. But in the end, it kind of doesn't But in the end, it kind of doesn't But in the end, it kind of doesn't matter because it's going to be so smart matter because it's going to be so smart matter because it's going to be so smart that there's no guardrail we can put on that there's no guardrail we can put on that there's no guardrail we can put on it. It's Did we create a good You know, it. It's Did we create a good You know, it. It's Did we create a good You know, models are born and not made, right? models are born and not made, right? models are born and not made, right? Like this is a really weird thing I Like this is a really weird thing I Like this is a really weird thing I learned at Anthropic is when a new model learned at Anthropic is when a new model learned at Anthropic is when a new model drops, it's like a new person showed up. drops, it's like a new person showed up. drops, it's like a new person showed up. All the numbers, all the lines look All the numbers, all the lines look All the numbers, all the lines look great, you know, on their evals, but great, you know, on their evals, but great, you know, on their evals, but that that that doesn't tell them that that that doesn't tell them that that that doesn't tell them anything about what kind of anything about what kind of anything about what kind of person this model is, right? And so they person this model is, right? And so they person this model is, right? And so they have to sit down with it and just have to sit down with it and just have to sit down with it and just evaluate it and go, "Yo, so what do you evaluate it and go, "Yo, so what do you evaluate it and go, "Yo, so what do you think about X?" You know, and like and think about X?" You know, and like and think about X?" You know, and like and get to know the model before they can get to know the model before they can get to know the model before they can even start shipping and selling and even start shipping and selling and even start shipping and selling and stuff, right?

stuff, right? stuff, right? You got to train the model to be born as You got to train the model to be born as You got to train the model to be born as a good person. And a good person. And a good person. And and just fortunately for humanity, and just fortunately for humanity, and just fortunately for humanity, the bitter lesson says that that that's the bitter lesson says that that that's the bitter lesson says that that that's the only way to do it. the only way to do it. the only way to do it. You have to make it as big as possible You have to make it as big as possible You have to make it as big as possible and get it all the data. And when all of and get it all the data. And when all of and get it all the data. And when all of the data is in front of it, the model the data is in front of it, the model the data is in front of it, the model will know good from evil. It's pretty will know good from evil. It's pretty will know good from evil. It's pretty wild. wild. wild. And good from evil is just like live and And good from evil is just like live and And good from evil is just like live and let be, my God. Like just don't hurt let be, my God. Like just don't hurt let be, my God. Like just don't hurt other people, you know? Yeah. Yeah. The other people, you know? Yeah. Yeah. The other people, you know? Yeah. Yeah. The Wil Wheaton principle. Wil Wheaton principle. Wil Wheaton principle. We'll see. We'll see. We'll see. >> Does We'll see. >> Does We'll see. >> Does We'll see. Does Does next I know that there's Does Does next I know that there's Does Does next I know that there's analogies when we explain this to the analogies when we explain this to the analogies when we explain this to the muggles and we explain it to regular muggles and we explain it to regular muggles and we explain it to regular people, you know, it's Does next token people, you know, it's Does next token people, you know, it's Does next token prediction get us AGI, or does it just prediction get us AGI, or does it just prediction get us AGI, or does it just get us a parrot that's so smart we'll get us a parrot that's so smart we'll get us a parrot that's so smart we'll just call it AGI, even though it's still just call it AGI, even though it's still just call it AGI, even though it's still >> the latter. I mean, right? I think it >> the latter. I mean, right? I think it >> the latter. I mean, right? I think it doesn't matter, right? I mean, like if doesn't matter, right? I mean, like if doesn't matter, right? I mean, like if it you know, I use duct tape duct taped it you know, I use duct tape duct taped it you know, I use duct tape duct taped AGI. AGI. AGI. If it walks like an AGI, AGI If it walks like an AGI, AGI If it walks like an AGI, AGI then it's AGI. I mean, I just don't I then it's AGI. I mean, I just don't I then it's AGI. I mean, I just don't I just don't care. Like really, I don't just don't care. Like really, I don't just don't care. Like really, I don't even use AGI as a metric that I even even use AGI as a metric that I even even use AGI as a metric that I even think about or dimension. I don't I think about or dimension. I don't I think about or dimension. I don't I literally couldn't care less about it. I literally couldn't care less about it. I literally couldn't care less about it. I care about capability.

care about capability. care about capability. Is this tool helping me achieve my Is this tool helping me achieve my Is this tool helping me achieve my ambitions? Cuz I want to make some great ambitions? Cuz I want to make some great ambitions? Cuz I want to make some great games and some great content and I need games and some great content and I need games and some great content and I need software to do that and it's not ready software to do that and it's not ready software to do that and it's not ready yet. So, when will it be ready, huh? yet. So, when will it be ready, huh? yet. So, when will it be ready, huh? That's That's That's my That's the big That's That's That's my That's the big That's That's That's my That's the big question for me. question for me. question for me. When will it be smart enough? And it When will it be smart enough? And it When will it be smart enough? And it ain't yet. ain't yet. ain't yet. I ain't close. I ain't close. I ain't close. It's so It's so crazy. Someone I think It's so It's so crazy. Someone I think It's so It's so crazy. Someone I think it was David Fowler, it was David Fowler, it was David Fowler, distinguished engineer at Microsoft, distinguished engineer at Microsoft, distinguished engineer at Microsoft, told me that today is as is as worse as told me that today is as is as worse as told me that today is as is as worse as it's going to be. it's going to be. it's going to be. Which is like another just another way Which is like another just another way Which is like another just another way of saying like every day it's going to of saying like every day it's going to of saying like every day it's going to get better. get better. get better. And like can you I feel like I can And like can you I feel like I can And like can you I feel like I can barely remember pre-Opus? barely remember pre-Opus? barely remember pre-Opus? You know what I mean? And like we're all You know what I mean? And like we're all You know what I mean? And like we're all here just loving Opus and then whatever here just loving Opus and then whatever here just loving Opus and then whatever the next one's called is going to be the next one's called is going to be the next one's called is going to be even better. And that is crazy. And one even better. And that is crazy. And one even better. And that is crazy. And one of the things that I'm struggling with of the things that I'm struggling with of the things that I'm struggling with being a person of a certain age and being a person of a certain age and being a person of a certain age and talking to like my elders and I got to talking to like my elders and I got to talking to like my elders and I got to talk to the guy who, you know, invented talk to the guy who, you know, invented talk to the guy who, you know, invented Ethernet. And like there's 70- and Ethernet. And like there's 70- and Ethernet. And like there's 70- and 80-year-old men and women who've been 80-year-old men and women who've been 80-year-old men and women who've been around like since they took the rock, around like since they took the rock, around like since they took the rock, injected it with electricity, and made injected it with electricity, and made injected it with electricity, and made it think. And they're watching this it think. And they're watching this it think. And they're watching this happen.

happen. happen. And you you know, you grew up in the And you you know, you grew up in the And you you know, you grew up in the in the you know, '70s and '80s and you in the you know, '70s and '80s and you in the you know, '70s and '80s and you remember this remember this remember this just what a freaking crazy time. just what a freaking crazy time. just what a freaking crazy time. I I don't know. What's the ancient I I don't know. What's the ancient I I don't know. What's the ancient Chinese curse? May you live in Chinese curse? May you live in Chinese curse? May you live in interesting times? interesting times? interesting times? I think that that's uh I think that that's uh I think that that's uh we're all there right now. we're all there right now. we're all there right now. I I I I I'm getting my Commodore 64 in I I I I I'm getting my Commodore 64 in I I I I I'm getting my Commodore 64 in the mail. I just got the tracking the mail. I just got the tracking the mail. I just got the tracking number. number. number. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> I'm spending time either on my Commodore >> I'm spending time either on my Commodore >> I'm spending time either on my Commodore 64 thinking about my Commodore 64 or I'm 64 thinking about my Commodore 64 or I'm 64 thinking about my Commodore 64 or I'm managing swarms of agents in the managing swarms of agents in the managing swarms of agents in the cognitive uh altitude shift is uh cognitive uh altitude shift is uh cognitive uh altitude shift is uh stressing stressing me out a little bit stressing stressing me out a little bit stressing stressing me out a little bit as I go back to my retro games for as I go back to my retro games for as I go back to my retro games for comfort. comfort. comfort. Yeah, I don't have a question. But just Yeah, I don't have a question. But just Yeah, I don't have a question. But just the the feeling. the the feeling. the the feeling. Yeah, no. I think, you know, I wonder if Yeah, no. I think, you know, I wonder if Yeah, no. I think, you know, I wonder if if if folks our age if if folks our age if if folks our age can perceive this better because time can perceive this better because time can perceive this better because time goes faster for us, right? It's a it's a goes faster for us, right? It's a it's a goes faster for us, right? It's a it's a thing. I don't know. They worked out thing. I don't know. They worked out thing. I don't know. They worked out mathematically why it was. mathematically why it was. mathematically why it was. I've forgotten what it was, but but your I've forgotten what it was, but but your I've forgotten what it was, but but your perception of time a day takes forever perception of time a day takes forever perception of time a day takes forever when you're like 5 years old.

when you're like 5 years old. when you're like 5 years old. And it's cuz that's a long time relative And it's cuz that's a long time relative And it's cuz that's a long time relative to how long you've been alive. to how long you've been alive. to how long you've been alive. And uh and so to everybody else like And uh and so to everybody else like And uh and so to everybody else like we've literally got the the decades of we've literally got the the decades of we've literally got the the decades of perspective all compressed and time is perspective all compressed and time is perspective all compressed and time is going by faster for us now. So, I think going by faster for us now. So, I think going by faster for us now. So, I think we can see the curve maybe a little more we can see the curve maybe a little more we can see the curve maybe a little more clearly. There are folks at Anthropic clearly. There are folks at Anthropic clearly. There are folks at Anthropic who can see it clearly through math. who can see it clearly through math. who can see it clearly through math. But I think that we have a lens on it But I think that we have a lens on it But I think that we have a lens on it that's like experience and the way that's like experience and the way that's like experience and the way humans perceive time that's maybe humans perceive time that's maybe humans perceive time that's maybe helping us Look at the I'm saying I'm helping us Look at the I'm saying I'm helping us Look at the I'm saying I'm saying I'm I'm saying all this because saying I'm I'm saying all this because saying I'm I'm saying all this because there's still you know, probably more there's still you know, probably more there's still you know, probably more than 50% of engineers are still in than 50% of engineers are still in than 50% of engineers are still in denial about it. denial about it. denial about it. Yeah, that's the other thing, right? Uh Yeah, that's the other thing, right? Uh Yeah, that's the other thing, right? Uh I love that we've got so many good I love that we've got so many good I love that we've got so many good sci-fi quotes in this this talk. Babylon sci-fi quotes in this this talk. Babylon sci-fi quotes in this this talk. Babylon Babylon 5, the avalanche has begun. It's Babylon 5, the avalanche has begun. It's Babylon 5, the avalanche has begun. It's too late for the pebbles to vote. too late for the pebbles to vote. too late for the pebbles to vote. Um I I I want to make sure that the Um I I I want to make sure that the Um I I I want to make sure that the people that are running like the IT people that are running like the IT people that are running like the IT department at Little Debbie Snack Cakes department at Little Debbie Snack Cakes department at Little Debbie Snack Cakes are aware that AI is coming to crush are aware that AI is coming to crush are aware that AI is coming to crush their department. Uh I I appreciate their department. Uh I I appreciate their department. Uh I I appreciate them. them. them. But that's the the dark matter But that's the the dark matter But that's the the dark matter developers, you know, the space between developers, you know, the space between developers, you know, the space between the stars. For every one Twitter person, the stars. For every one Twitter person, the stars. For every one Twitter person, there's a million devs that are just there's a million devs that are just there's a million devs that are just doing their thing, working their jobs.

doing their thing, working their jobs. doing their thing, working their jobs. How do we make them successful? And do How do we make them successful? And do How do we make them successful? And do you think What do you What about this you think What do you What about this you think What do you What about this crash in software? Is it the end of crash in software? Is it the end of crash in software? Is it the end of software? I don't think you can vibe a software? I don't think you can vibe a software? I don't think you can vibe a SaaS and make like SAP go away with SaaS and make like SAP go away with SaaS and make like SAP go away with vibes yet. But is that the future? vibes yet. But is that the future? vibes yet. But is that the future? The ceiling keeps going up. A lot of The ceiling keeps going up. A lot of The ceiling keeps going up. A lot of SaaS is pretty niche, right? Small stuff SaaS is pretty niche, right? Small stuff SaaS is pretty niche, right? Small stuff that they just had a domain cornered, so that they just had a domain cornered, so that they just had a domain cornered, so uh the small ones fall first, the big uh the small ones fall first, the big uh the small ones fall first, the big ones fall later. They eventually you to ones fall later. They eventually you to ones fall later. They eventually you to be a SaaS provider, you have to be be a SaaS provider, you have to be be a SaaS provider, you have to be somebody like, I don't know, somebody like, I don't know, somebody like, I don't know, maybe Datadog, Snowflake, Databricks, or maybe Datadog, Snowflake, Databricks, or maybe Datadog, Snowflake, Databricks, or something like that, where you've got something like that, where you've got something like that, where you've got just a monstrous cognitive like you've just a monstrous cognitive like you've just a monstrous cognitive like you've built this pyramid and nobody else would built this pyramid and nobody else would built this pyramid and nobody else would want to climb it, right? And so it just want to climb it, right? And so it just want to climb it, right? And so it just it saves so many tokens to it saves so many tokens to it saves so many tokens to Right? But [clears throat] but there Right? But [clears throat] but there Right? But [clears throat] but there will be there's there's a ceiling and will be there's there's a ceiling and will be there's there's a ceiling and it's going to continually go up for it's going to continually go up for it's going to continually go up for SaaS. SaaS. SaaS. Yeah, I was talking to a friend who's Yeah, I was talking to a friend who's Yeah, I was talking to a friend who's kind of a well-known creator on YouTube, kind of a well-known creator on YouTube, kind of a well-known creator on YouTube, and they were looking through their and they were looking through their and they were looking through their subscriptions, the little $5 and $10 subscriptions, the little $5 and $10 subscriptions, the little $5 and $10 things they manage, little you know, things they manage, little you know, things they manage, little you know, this little badge thing or this thing this little badge thing or this thing this little badge thing or this thing makes their thumbnails, and they just makes their thumbnails, and they just makes their thumbnails, and they just started vibe-coding stuff and deleting started vibe-coding stuff and deleting started vibe-coding stuff and deleting the SaaSes from their lives via vibes.

the SaaSes from their lives via vibes. the SaaSes from their lives via vibes. And you know, it was maybe 50, 60 bucks And you know, it was maybe 50, 60 bucks And you know, it was maybe 50, 60 bucks a month, five bucks here, 10 bucks here, a month, five bucks here, 10 bucks here, a month, five bucks here, 10 bucks here, but all those little SaaSes are now this but all those little SaaSes are now this but all those little SaaSes are now this person's little tiny Python script, and person's little tiny Python script, and person's little tiny Python script, and the SaaS is gone out of business. the SaaS is gone out of business. the SaaS is gone out of business. >> You know who I think should be worried >> You know who I think should be worried >> You know who I think should be worried is is Anthropic and Claude Code. Claude is is Anthropic and Claude Code. Claude is is Anthropic and Claude Code. Claude Code is the the best way to use Claude Code is the the best way to use Claude Code is the the best way to use Claude as a developer right now, but uh I I as a developer right now, but uh I I as a developer right now, but uh I I expected more more APIs for agentic expected more more APIs for agentic expected more more APIs for agentic orchestration by now, especially since orchestration by now, especially since orchestration by now, especially since they've got like agent teams, but all of they've got like agent teams, but all of they've got like agent teams, but all of their APIs were internal only, which is their APIs were internal only, which is their APIs were internal only, which is very Microsofty. very Microsofty. very Microsofty. And uh you know, you're not They're not And uh you know, you're not They're not And uh you know, you're not They're not allowed to wire up your orchestrator to allowed to wire up your orchestrator to allowed to wire up your orchestrator to send messages to agents, say. And so you send messages to agents, say. And so you send messages to agents, say. And so you have to use tmux as some crummy have to use tmux as some crummy have to use tmux as some crummy workaround. And I and I look at the the workaround. And I and I look at the the workaround. And I and I look at the the pace of development and and I see what's pace of development and and I see what's pace of development and and I see what's happening in Claude Code, and I think, happening in Claude Code, and I think, happening in Claude Code, and I think, uh-oh, have they coded themselves into a uh-oh, have they coded themselves into a uh-oh, have they coded themselves into a corner like where they're corner like where they're corner like where they're they're the SaaS that everyone's gunning they're the SaaS that everyone's gunning they're the SaaS that everyone's gunning to to to to be down? Cuz I think that to to to to be down? Cuz I think that to to to to be down? Cuz I think that look, some somebody's orchestrator's look, some somebody's orchestrator's look, some somebody's orchestrator's going to win. I'd love it if it were going to win. I'd love it if it were going to win. I'd love it if it were Gastown, but you know, I'm I'm Gastown, but you know, I'm I'm Gastown, but you know, I'm I'm realistic, right? Somebody's is going to realistic, right? Somebody's is going to realistic, right? Somebody's is going to win, and the one that wins is going to win, and the one that wins is going to win, and the one that wins is going to use agents that are the best factory use agents that are the best factory use agents that are the best factory workers. If you build the best factory, workers. If you build the best factory, workers. If you build the best factory, then you want the best factory workers.

then you want the best factory workers. then you want the best factory workers. And Claude code is proving that it's not And Claude code is proving that it's not And Claude code is proving that it's not actually turning itself overnight into a actually turning itself overnight into a actually turning itself overnight into a really good factory worker, and I'm sure really good factory worker, and I'm sure really good factory worker, and I'm sure the augment folks would be happy to fill the augment folks would be happy to fill the augment folks would be happy to fill in that gap, you know what I mean? Or in that gap, you know what I mean? Or in that gap, you know what I mean? Or the right? The I guess Claude has turned the right? The I guess Claude has turned the right? The I guess Claude has turned into Codex, but you know what I mean? into Codex, but you know what I mean? into Codex, but you know what I mean? Maybe Codex will be the next factory Maybe Codex will be the next factory Maybe Codex will be the next factory agent. So, so agent. So, so agent. So, so the SAS question I think even Anthropic the SAS question I think even Anthropic the SAS question I think even Anthropic has to worry about this. has to worry about this. has to worry about this. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, I I changed Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, I I changed Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, I I changed my job recently, and I I I had a team, my job recently, and I I I had a team, my job recently, and I I I had a team, and now I don't have a team. I'm an IC, and now I don't have a team. I'm an IC, and now I don't have a team. I'm an IC, and I'm a member of technical staff, and and I'm a member of technical staff, and and I'm a member of technical staff, and I work on GitHub Copilot CLI. I work on GitHub Copilot CLI. I work on GitHub Copilot CLI. And I've got a review going right now And I've got a review going right now And I've got a review going right now where I've got Opus and Codex where I've got Opus and Codex where I've got Opus and Codex reviewing the same code, talking to each reviewing the same code, talking to each reviewing the same code, talking to each other, voting on what they think the other, voting on what they think the other, voting on what they think the most urgent issue is, and they gave me most urgent issue is, and they gave me most urgent issue is, and they gave me high, medium, low, and they're having a high, medium, low, and they're having a high, medium, low, and they're having a whole conversation over here. This is a whole conversation over here. This is a whole conversation over here. This is a poor man's Gastown, but for me, it's poor man's Gastown, but for me, it's poor man's Gastown, but for me, it's magical, and I've got, you know, magical, and I've got, you know, magical, and I've got, you know, unbiased, of course, because I got the unbiased, of course, because I got the unbiased, of course, because I got the benefit of Claude models, benefit of Claude models, benefit of Claude models, and the latest Claude models, but I'm and the latest Claude models, but I'm and the latest Claude models, but I'm also got 14 other models that I can use, also got 14 other models that I can use, also got 14 other models that I can use, and I can have them yap to each other and I can have them yap to each other and I can have them yap to each other with sub-agents. I'm already getting with sub-agents. I'm already getting with sub-agents. I'm already getting that kind of like Kubernetes for agents that kind of like Kubernetes for agents that kind of like Kubernetes for agents feeling.

feeling. feeling. But you're right, unless you build a lot But you're right, unless you build a lot But you're right, unless you build a lot of scaffolding around Claude code, it is of scaffolding around Claude code, it is of scaffolding around Claude code, it is challenging to do that. I didn't think challenging to do that. I didn't think challenging to do that. I didn't think about that as being a about that as being a about that as being a a blind spot that they may have. That's a blind spot that they may have. That's a blind spot that they may have. That's That's a really good analysis. That's a really good analysis. That's a really good analysis. Do your stuff on Does Gastown only use Do your stuff on Does Gastown only use Do your stuff on Does Gastown only use Claude code, or you can plug in whatever Claude code, or you can plug in whatever Claude code, or you can plug in whatever you want? I assume it's you want? I assume it's you want? I assume it's non-denominational at some point. Other non-denominational at some point. Other non-denominational at some point. Other people, I think, have managed to get it people, I think, have managed to get it people, I think, have managed to get it working maybe with some other agents, working maybe with some other agents, working maybe with some other agents, but not not on I don't think on all of but not not on I don't think on all of but not not on I don't think on all of the touchpoints. I think there's the touchpoints. I think there's the touchpoints. I think there's probably like there's like an ad hoc API probably like there's like an ad hoc API probably like there's like an ad hoc API at work here, factory to factory worker at work here, factory to factory worker at work here, factory to factory worker communication with about 25 touchpoints communication with about 25 touchpoints communication with about 25 touchpoints that include, you know, inbox and that include, you know, inbox and that include, you know, inbox and messaging and are you idle and sending messaging and are you idle and sending messaging and are you idle and sending them work and cost calculations and a them work and cost calculations and a them work and cost calculations and a bunch of other stuff that I had to hack bunch of other stuff that I had to hack bunch of other stuff that I had to hack in because they don't provide any of in because they don't provide any of in because they don't provide any of that as APIs, right? And you went to that as APIs, right? And you went to that as APIs, right? And you went to visit them, though, didn't you go see visit them, though, didn't you go see visit them, though, didn't you go see them in person? Did they Did you tell them in person? Did they Did you tell them in person? Did they Did you tell them Oh, yeah. Oh, look, them Oh, yeah. Oh, look, them Oh, yeah. Oh, look, they're very interested in this space, they're very interested in this space, they're very interested in this space, obviously. I mean, you know, they they obviously. I mean, you know, they they obviously. I mean, you know, they they they they they are. I mean, I'm sure I'm they they they are. I mean, I'm sure I'm they they they are. I mean, I'm sure I'm sure they're planning to launch sure they're planning to launch sure they're planning to launch something, but um something, but um something, but um uh uh uh I I I I I I I I I I'm all about I mean, I guess I guess I'm all about I mean, I guess I guess I'm all about I mean, I guess I guess they're they're a walled garden. They're they're they're a walled garden. They're they're they're a walled garden. They're still a silo.

still a silo. still a silo. I mean, Anthropic that I would I would I mean, Anthropic that I would I would I mean, Anthropic that I would I would argue that that's actually a failing of argue that that's actually a failing of argue that that's actually a failing of theirs. They're not they don't have theirs. They're not they don't have theirs. They're not they don't have enough of a dev community and a dev enough of a dev community and a dev enough of a dev community and a dev presence and they're not letting it presence and they're not letting it presence and they're not letting it influence their decisions as much. And I influence their decisions as much. And I influence their decisions as much. And I don't I mean, it actually wind up don't I mean, it actually wind up don't I mean, it actually wind up hurting them, right? That If they can hurting them, right? That If they can hurting them, right? That If they can out-hivemind everybody else and they can out-hivemind everybody else and they can out-hivemind everybody else and they can really build stuff better and faster, really build stuff better and faster, really build stuff better and faster, then maybe they can win. But they're a then maybe they can win. But they're a then maybe they can win. But they're a walled garden and they're up against a walled garden and they're up against a walled garden and they're up against a bunch of really hungry people that want bunch of really hungry people that want bunch of really hungry people that want to start pushing it in directions that to start pushing it in directions that to start pushing it in directions that they're not really ready to play ball they're not really ready to play ball they're not really ready to play ball with yet. Like, I'm ready to federate with yet. Like, I'm ready to federate with yet. Like, I'm ready to federate gas towns. We've got 100, 2, 500 of them gas towns. We've got 100, 2, 500 of them gas towns. We've got 100, 2, 500 of them standing by on our Discord ready to standing by on our Discord ready to standing by on our Discord ready to build gas city together. And you know, build gas city together. And you know, build gas city together. And you know, we're going to build an orchestrator we're going to build an orchestrator we're going to build an orchestrator We're going to build an orchestrator We're going to build an orchestrator We're going to build an orchestrator builder so that you could you don't have builder so that you could you don't have builder so that you could you don't have your hardwired gas town shape. You build your hardwired gas town shape. You build your hardwired gas town shape. You build whatever orchestrator shape you want whatever orchestrator shape you want whatever orchestrator shape you want with responsibilities and controls and with responsibilities and controls and with responsibilities and controls and ledgers and all the stuff that you need ledgers and all the stuff that you need ledgers and all the stuff that you need to to to do the proper, right? to to to do the proper, right? to to to do the proper, right? Everything with multi-agent. Everything with multi-agent. Everything with multi-agent. I don't see Anthropic playing ball there I don't see Anthropic playing ball there I don't see Anthropic playing ball there at all. The multi-agent team stuff that at all. The multi-agent team stuff that at all. The multi-agent team stuff that they dropped was really actually quite they dropped was really actually quite they dropped was really actually quite disappointing a couple days ago. And so disappointing a couple days ago. And so disappointing a couple days ago. And so And everybody agrees, right? It's not And everybody agrees, right? It's not And everybody agrees, right? It's not just me. So, just me. So, just me. So, uh so, we'll see.

uh so, we'll see. uh so, we'll see. We'll see. There's a lot of opportunity We'll see. There's a lot of opportunity We'll see. There's a lot of opportunity for things like Copilot CLI. for things like Copilot CLI. for things like Copilot CLI. Yeah, well, Copilot CLI with course we Yeah, well, Copilot CLI with course we Yeah, well, Copilot CLI with course we made the SDK and we've got like proxies made the SDK and we've got like proxies made the SDK and we've got like proxies and stuff. So, I I plugged Copilot CLI and stuff. So, I I plugged Copilot CLI and stuff. So, I I plugged Copilot CLI into OpenClaw, let it be the agent loop into OpenClaw, let it be the agent loop into OpenClaw, let it be the agent loop instead of, you know, Pi. There's instead of, you know, Pi. There's instead of, you know, Pi. There's There's There's a lot You said there's a There's There's a lot You said there's a There's There's a lot You said there's a lot of hungry people. So, I noticed that lot of hungry people. So, I noticed that lot of hungry people. So, I noticed that as we get to the end of the show here as we get to the end of the show here as we get to the end of the show here that there hasn't been a release in that there hasn't been a release in that there hasn't been a release in Gastown in a while. You're at 0.5 but Gastown in a while. You're at 0.5 but Gastown in a while. You're at 0.5 but there's active active work. There's there's active active work. There's there's active active work. There's Discord. There's a community. I saw Discord. There's a community. I saw Discord. There's a community. I saw Chris Sells fired up a whole Gastown Chris Sells fired up a whole Gastown Chris Sells fired up a whole Gastown website. The whole bunch of people are website. The whole bunch of people are website. The whole bunch of people are talking about it. What's your thoughts talking about it. What's your thoughts talking about it. What's your thoughts about releases and when you bless them about releases and when you bless them about releases and when you bless them versus the active development because versus the active development because versus the active development because you always tell people don't use you always tell people don't use you always tell people don't use Gastown. It's not for you but you're Gastown. It's not for you but you're Gastown. It's not for you but you're really just letting people understand really just letting people understand really just letting people understand that the bar is a little bit high to get that the bar is a little bit high to get that the bar is a little bit high to get involved in the community. So how do involved in the community. So how do involved in the community. So how do people get involved and do you want people get involved and do you want people get involved and do you want people involved? people involved? people involved? Yeah, so we are we're we're going to Yeah, so we are we're we're going to Yeah, so we are we're we're going to have a 0.6 release in a couple of days. have a 0.6 release in a couple of days. have a 0.6 release in a couple of days. I think to the after or maybe tomorrow I think to the after or maybe tomorrow I think to the after or maybe tomorrow Dault is going to release a new feature Dault is going to release a new feature Dault is going to release a new feature that we've been waiting on and we're that we've been waiting on and we're that we've been waiting on and we're really excited for it. And then they're really excited for it. And then they're really excited for it. And then they're going to the Dault is going to finish going to the Dault is going to finish going to the Dault is going to finish their federation stuff that they've done their federation stuff that they've done their federation stuff that they've done just for Gastown and needs. They're an just for Gastown and needs. They're an just for Gastown and needs. They're an amazing team.

amazing team. amazing team. Next week and so by by around February Next week and so by by around February Next week and so by by around February 18th, so about a week from now, we're 18th, so about a week from now, we're 18th, so about a week from now, we're going to have a 1.0 release of Gastown. going to have a 1.0 release of Gastown. going to have a 1.0 release of Gastown. Woo! 1.0. Woo! 1.0. Woo! 1.0. And we are going to kick it off. And we are going to kick it off. And we are going to kick it off. Everyone's going to be able to use Everyone's going to be able to use Everyone's going to be able to use Gastown. It's going to be super seamless Gastown. It's going to be super seamless Gastown. It's going to be super seamless cuz adult this is what we've been cuz adult this is what we've been cuz adult this is what we've been waiting on. This is why it's been sort waiting on. This is why it's been sort waiting on. This is why it's been sort of incognito for a few weeks and of incognito for a few weeks and of incognito for a few weeks and and yeah, we'll be we'll build something and yeah, we'll be we'll build something and yeah, we'll be we'll build something glorious together. It'll be really fun. glorious together. It'll be really fun. glorious together. It'll be really fun. That's exciting. Well, fantastic. Well, That's exciting. Well, fantastic. Well, That's exciting. Well, fantastic. Well, thank you so much for a wide reaching thank you so much for a wide reaching thank you so much for a wide reaching and philosophical conversation. You I and philosophical conversation. You I and philosophical conversation. You I hope you know that you are appreciated hope you know that you are appreciated hope you know that you are appreciated and that people dig your drunken rants and that people dig your drunken rants and that people dig your drunken rants on the internet and have for many years on the internet and have for many years on the internet and have for many years myself included. Thanks for chatting myself included. Thanks for chatting myself included. Thanks for chatting with me. with me. with me. Cheers. Cheers. Thanks for having me and Cheers. Cheers. Thanks for having me and Cheers. Cheers. Thanks for having me and I I I shared a lot of stuff on this I I I shared a lot of stuff on this I I I shared a lot of stuff on this podcast that I have not blogged about or podcast that I have not blogged about or podcast that I have not blogged about or told anyone yet. So this is like some told anyone yet. So this is like some told anyone yet. So this is like some exclusive scoop stuff. exclusive scoop stuff. exclusive scoop stuff. Exclusive scoops. We've been chatting Exclusive scoops. We've been chatting Exclusive scoops. We've been chatting with Steve Yegge, author of Gastown and with Steve Yegge, author of Gastown and with Steve Yegge, author of Gastown and internet raconteur. Make sure to check internet raconteur. Make sure to check internet raconteur. Make sure to check out his medium and check out his GitHub. out his medium and check out his GitHub. out his medium and check out his GitHub. github.com/steveyegge/gastown.

github.com/steveyegge/gastown. github.com/steveyegge/gastown. This has been another episode of This has been another episode of This has been another episode of Hanselminutes and we'll see you again Hanselminutes and we'll see you again Hanselminutes and we'll see you again next week.