Braille Is Freedom with Bristol Braille's Ed Rogers

[music] [music] >> Hi, I'm Scott Hanselman and this is >> Hi, I'm Scott Hanselman and this is >> Hi, I'm Scott Hanselman and this is another episode of Hanselminutes. Today another episode of Hanselminutes. Today another episode of Hanselminutes. Today I have the pleasure of chatting with Ed I have the pleasure of chatting with Ed I have the pleasure of chatting with Ed Rogers. He's the founder and managing Rogers. He's the founder and managing Rogers. He's the founder and managing director of Bristol Braille. He's here director of Bristol Braille. He's here director of Bristol Braille. He's here to talk to me about the Canute Console to talk to me about the Canute Console to talk to me about the Canute Console Premium, which is a fantastic new Premium, which is a fantastic new Premium, which is a fantastic new product that is open source for product that is open source for product that is open source for folks that want to use Braille to talk folks that want to use Braille to talk folks that want to use Braille to talk to their computers. How are you, sir? to their computers. How are you, sir? to their computers. How are you, sir? >> I'm very well, thank you. And thank you >> I'm very well, thank you. And thank you >> I'm very well, thank you. And thank you for having me on. for having me on. for having me on. >> So, um >> So, um >> So, um this is kind of a funny connection, but this is kind of a funny connection, but this is kind of a funny connection, but um um um I think that for sighted people I think that for sighted people I think that for sighted people we have seen in movies a one-line tiny we have seen in movies a one-line tiny we have seen in movies a one-line tiny Braille single line of text and we kind Braille single line of text and we kind Braille single line of text and we kind of assume that there's like sighted of assume that there's like sighted of assume that there's like sighted people who use computers the regular way people who use computers the regular way people who use computers the regular way and then there's the Braille person that and then there's the Braille person that and then there's the Braille person that gets one line, it's very small, and gets one line, it's very small, and gets one line, it's very small, and there's nothing in between. there's nothing in between. there's nothing in between. But certainly, you know, sight is a is a But certainly, you know, sight is a is a But certainly, you know, sight is a is a spectrum and I was I was actually spectrum and I was I was actually spectrum and I was I was actually legally blind before I had my my LASIK legally blind before I had my my LASIK legally blind before I had my my LASIK and I relied on and still sometimes rely and I relied on and still sometimes rely and I relied on and still sometimes rely on zooming technology. Um how many on zooming technology. Um how many on zooming technology. Um how many people use Braille? Are they always people use Braille? Are they always people use Braille? Are they always completely profoundly blind or is there completely profoundly blind or is there completely profoundly blind or is there a spectrum within that space?

a spectrum within that space? a spectrum within that space? >> Uh you didn't exactly. It's very hard to >> Uh you didn't exactly. It's very hard to >> Uh you didn't exactly. It's very hard to get the figures of get the figures of get the figures of the blindness in general actually the blindness in general actually the blindness in general actually especially not least cuz everyone especially not least cuz everyone especially not least cuz everyone defines it slightly differently. So, defines it slightly differently. So, defines it slightly differently. So, it's you know, legally blind is a it's you know, legally blind is a it's you know, legally blind is a different is different to um different is different to um different is different to um what makes you totally blind for one what makes you totally blind for one what makes you totally blind for one application and what makes you totally application and what makes you totally application and what makes you totally blind in the case of something else. So, blind in the case of something else. So, blind in the case of something else. So, you might cannot never bother to read you might cannot never bother to read you might cannot never bother to read Braille if you have pinprick vision Braille if you have pinprick vision Braille if you have pinprick vision where you means you can always read where you means you can always read where you means you can always read print even though you definitely legally print even though you definitely legally print even though you definitely legally blind and wouldn't wouldn't drive for blind and wouldn't wouldn't drive for blind and wouldn't wouldn't drive for example. example. example. In Britain, the RNIB reckons it's In Britain, the RNIB reckons it's In Britain, the RNIB reckons it's somewhere over 20,000. somewhere over 20,000. somewhere over 20,000. Uh so, as as a country of 65,000 million Uh so, as as a country of 65,000 million Uh so, as as a country of 65,000 million people, you can probably scale that. people, you can probably scale that. people, you can probably scale that. There are countries like India where There are countries like India where There are countries like India where there are significantly higher rates of there are significantly higher rates of there are significantly higher rates of blindness because of certain diseases. blindness because of certain diseases. blindness because of certain diseases. And And And uh uh uh We but we've We but we've We but we've when it comes to who reads Braille, it when it comes to who reads Braille, it when it comes to who reads Braille, it it's it's it's there was a real worry about 15 years there was a real worry about 15 years there was a real worry about 15 years ago that the the answer is less and less ago that the the answer is less and less ago that the the answer is less and less people read Braille, regardless of how people read Braille, regardless of how people read Braille, regardless of how many. It's just less than less than 10 many. It's just less than less than 10 many. It's just less than less than 10 years ago, less than which is less than years ago, less than which is less than years ago, less than which is less than 20 years ago, and so on.

20 years ago, and so on. 20 years ago, and so on. There was a figure, I think, the There was a figure, I think, the There was a figure, I think, the National Federation of the Blind in National Federation of the Blind in National Federation of the Blind in uh uh uh in in America in in America in in America had, which was that um in the '50s, 50% had, which was that um in the '50s, 50% had, which was that um in the '50s, 50% of of of uh uh uh of blind schoolchildren learned Braille, of blind schoolchildren learned Braille, of blind schoolchildren learned Braille, and now it's more like one in 10. Uh and now it's more like one in 10. Uh and now it's more like one in 10. Uh please don't quote me on those. It's I please don't quote me on those. It's I please don't quote me on those. It's I could be off by a decade or so, but it could be off by a decade or so, but it could be off by a decade or so, but it was was was it it certainly it certainly entered it it certainly it certainly entered it it certainly it certainly entered into a decline. And then there's been a into a decline. And then there's been a into a decline. And then there's been a lot of projects like ours lot of projects like ours lot of projects like ours taking technological solutions to that taking technological solutions to that taking technological solutions to that to try and patch up some of the the vast to try and patch up some of the the vast to try and patch up some of the the vast gaps in gaps in gaps in in what you can actually use Braille in what you can actually use Braille in what you can actually use Braille for, cuz it's all very well saying, for, cuz it's all very well saying, for, cuz it's all very well saying, "Well, you but but we ought to have be "Well, you but but we ought to have be "Well, you but but we ought to have be ought to make Braille more available so ought to make Braille more available so ought to make Braille more available so that people can learn it." But you sure, that people can learn it." But you sure, that people can learn it." But you sure, but what do you then use it for in your but what do you then use it for in your but what do you then use it for in your real in in in your in your real life? real in in in your in your real life? real in in in your in your real life? And there've been lots of projects And there've been lots of projects And there've been lots of projects taking the more human approach, which is taking the more human approach, which is taking the more human approach, which is to uh encourage people to meet up and to uh encourage people to meet up and to uh encourage people to meet up and and learn and learn off each other as and learn and learn off each other as and learn and learn off each other as opposed to learn from institutions and opposed to learn from institutions and opposed to learn from institutions and so on, which is certainly great, but so on, which is certainly great, but so on, which is certainly great, but that when suddenly the institution loses that when suddenly the institution loses that when suddenly the institution loses its funding or something, then the the its funding or something, then the the its funding or something, then the the community can just disappear, which community can just disappear, which community can just disappear, which happened over the pandemic in some happened over the pandemic in some happened over the pandemic in some cases.

cases. cases. And you get a lot of And you get a lot of And you get a lot of >> that this is largely screen reader >> that this is largely screen reader >> that this is largely screen reader technology that has caused Braille to technology that has caused Braille to technology that has caused Braille to fall off? The idea that screen readers fall off? The idea that screen readers fall off? The idea that screen readers and I've seen we we I think I've had a and I've seen we we I think I've had a and I've seen we we I think I've had a number of blind developers on the show, number of blind developers on the show, number of blind developers on the show, and most of them have incredibly and most of them have incredibly and most of them have incredibly fast-talking computer words. It's going fast-talking computer words. It's going fast-talking computer words. It's going in there in there in there It's like five times 10x speed, and It's like five times 10x speed, and It's like five times 10x speed, and that's how they function. But I feel that's how they function. But I feel that's how they function. But I feel like if you were sitting at a Starbucks, like if you were sitting at a Starbucks, like if you were sitting at a Starbucks, it might be quite challenging. it might be quite challenging. it might be quite challenging. You can't really have situational You can't really have situational You can't really have situational awareness if you have someone yapping in awareness if you have someone yapping in awareness if you have someone yapping in your ear. your ear. your ear. >> Well, there are there are limitations to >> Well, there are there are limitations to >> Well, there are there are limitations to what you can do with screen readers. what you can do with screen readers. what you can do with screen readers. That's spelling spelling grammar That's spelling spelling grammar That's spelling spelling grammar numeracy are much harder in most cases. numeracy are much harder in most cases. numeracy are much harder in most cases. And and that's because a screen reader And and that's because a screen reader And and that's because a screen reader doesn't do something for a blind person doesn't do something for a blind person doesn't do something for a blind person that it does that it couldn't also do that it does that it couldn't also do that it does that it couldn't also do for sighted person. So, reading having for sighted person. So, reading having for sighted person. So, reading having something read to you in a computerized something read to you in a computerized something read to you in a computerized voice if you are blind, it it there voice if you are blind, it it there voice if you are blind, it it there aren't it's not the equivalent aren't it's not the equivalent aren't it's not the equivalent experience of reading print experience of reading print experience of reading print if you're sighted. The equivalent if you're sighted. The equivalent if you're sighted. The equivalent experience is not the same. It's not the experience is not the same. It's not the experience is not the same. It's not the same. It's not the same. same. It's not the same. same. It's not the same. >> Yeah, yeah. That's a great point. >> Yeah, yeah. That's a great point. >> Yeah, yeah. That's a great point. >> But I should note and and you're right >> But I should note and and you're right >> But I should note and and you're right that it is regardless of the point I'm that it is regardless of the point I'm that it is regardless of the point I'm about to make which is actually about to make which is actually about to make which is actually technically they're highly technically they're highly technically they're highly complimentary, but regardless of that complimentary, but regardless of that complimentary, but regardless of that there is certainly a strong there is certainly a strong there is certainly a strong there is certainly a lot of people who there is certainly a lot of people who there is certainly a lot of people who immediately respond by saying surely immediately respond by saying surely immediately respond by saying surely technology and therefore text to speech technology and therefore text to speech technology and therefore text to speech has made Braille redundant. Not quite has made Braille redundant. Not quite has made Braille redundant. Not quite realizing often that Braille is a form realizing often that Braille is a form realizing often that Braille is a form of technology and in fact of technology and in fact of technology and in fact >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> electromechanical form of technology >> electromechanical form of technology >> electromechanical form of technology where the where you have a thousand pins where the where you have a thousand pins where the where you have a thousand pins moving up and down moving up and down moving up and down with almost total accuracy is an

with almost total accuracy is an with almost total accuracy is an extremely advanced form of technology. extremely advanced form of technology. extremely advanced form of technology. Um Um Um And and Braille itself is much is is is And and Braille itself is much is is is And and Braille itself is much is is is significantly younger than print. It is significantly younger than print. It is significantly younger than print. It is technology. But yeah, there is a there technology. But yeah, there is a there technology. But yeah, there is a there is a sense that other forms of digital is a sense that other forms of digital is a sense that other forms of digital technology have undermined Braille and technology have undermined Braille and technology have undermined Braille and therefore maybe we don't need to bother therefore maybe we don't need to bother therefore maybe we don't need to bother teaching it because it's a bit easier to teaching it because it's a bit easier to teaching it because it's a bit easier to just have something read to you. The just have something read to you. The just have something read to you. The question is would you want your child to question is would you want your child to question is would you want your child to have the opportunity to to read print have the opportunity to to read print have the opportunity to to read print and therefore Braille and therefore Braille and therefore Braille or or just have them or or just have them or or just have them spoken [snorts] to by a computer. spoken [snorts] to by a computer. spoken [snorts] to by a computer. Um so, the point about it being Um so, the point about it being Um so, the point about it being complimentary is that in the modern complimentary is that in the modern complimentary is that in the modern world it's not that much use having world it's not that much use having world it's not that much use having everything in paper. everything in paper. everything in paper. You need Braille displays which is what You need Braille displays which is what You need Braille displays which is what we build and Braille displays have to be we build and Braille displays have to be we build and Braille displays have to be fed by something and have to be fed by a fed by something and have to be fed by a fed by something and have to be fed by a computer. And those are unless you have computer. And those are unless you have computer. And those are unless you have a totally integrated device. We have a totally integrated device. We have a totally integrated device. We have some integrated devices, but unless you some integrated devices, but unless you some integrated devices, but unless you have a totally integrated device that have a totally integrated device that have a totally integrated device that takes a screen reader. So, the screen takes a screen reader. So, the screen takes a screen reader. So, the screen reader speaks, but the screen reader reader speaks, but the screen reader reader speaks, but the screen reader also drives the braille display. So, the also drives the braille display. So, the also drives the braille display. So, the screen reader itself is what enables screen reader itself is what enables screen reader itself is what enables digital braille. digital braille. digital braille. >> You know, as you say that, it kind of >> You know, as you say that, it kind of >> You know, as you say that, it kind of immediately kind of becomes obvious to immediately kind of becomes obvious to immediately kind of becomes obvious to me, but it wasn't immediately obvious.

me, but it wasn't immediately obvious. me, but it wasn't immediately obvious. You just connected two things. You're You just connected two things. You're You just connected two things. You're absolutely right because the absolutely right because the absolutely right because the the screen has a In In programming, we'd the screen has a In In programming, we'd the screen has a In In programming, we'd call it like a DOM, an object model that call it like a DOM, an object model that call it like a DOM, an object model that describes like a calculator. describes like a calculator. describes like a calculator. And the DOM has to decide if I'm going And the DOM has to decide if I'm going And the DOM has to decide if I'm going to present a calculator on the screen to to present a calculator on the screen to to present a calculator on the screen to a braille display, what does someone a braille display, what does someone a braille display, what does someone want to see? Do they want to see a grid want to see? Do they want to see a grid want to see? Do they want to see a grid of 1 through 9 organized in a square? Or of 1 through 9 organized in a square? Or of 1 through 9 organized in a square? Or do they want to see the numbers 1 do they want to see the numbers 1 do they want to see the numbers 1 through 9 in a row? through 9 in a row? through 9 in a row? I could could be preference. It could be I could could be preference. It could be I could could be preference. It could be convention. Who knows? convention. Who knows? convention. Who knows? >> The answer to that particular one, of >> The answer to that particular one, of >> The answer to that particular one, of course, has been until we invented the course, has been until we invented the course, has been until we invented the multi-line display, it had to be a line multi-line display, it had to be a line multi-line display, it had to be a line regardless of what it's supposed to be. regardless of what it's supposed to be. regardless of what it's supposed to be. But yes, it's the it's it's the same The But yes, it's the it's it's the same The But yes, it's the it's it's the same The data is in the is in the same place, and data is in the is in the same place, and data is in the is in the same place, and it needs to be served both through TTS it needs to be served both through TTS it needs to be served both through TTS and to a braille display, and that is and to a braille display, and that is and to a braille display, and that is usually done with the same screen usually done with the same screen usually done with the same screen reader. reader. reader. That you Some people might switch, but That you Some people might switch, but That you Some people might switch, but Going off of a Going off of a Going off of a screen reader tangent because it is screen reader tangent because it is screen reader tangent because it is interesting. There There are different interesting. There There are different interesting. There There are different ways that that's done, and ways that that's done, and ways that that's done, and to use JAWS, NVDA, and BRLTTY as three to use JAWS, NVDA, and BRLTTY as three to use JAWS, NVDA, and BRLTTY as three different examples. JAWS being has been different examples. JAWS being has been different examples. JAWS being has been around for a while, and and that's the around for a while, and and that's the around for a while, and and that's the commercial one. And that, I believe, I'm commercial one. And that, I believe, I'm commercial one. And that, I believe, I'm not an expert in this stuff.

not an expert in this stuff. not an expert in this stuff. Because it predates a lot of them more Because it predates a lot of them more Because it predates a lot of them more useful APIs on on systems like Windows, useful APIs on on systems like Windows, useful APIs on on systems like Windows, it it would do a lot of work getting it it would do a lot of work getting it it would do a lot of work getting stuff off the video feed. stuff off the video feed. stuff off the video feed. Whereas Whereas Whereas something like NVDA something like NVDA something like NVDA relies so much on that DOM model and on relies so much on that DOM model and on relies so much on that DOM model and on the accessibility that's built into the accessibility that's built into the accessibility that's built into applications. And then you have BRLTTY, applications. And then you have BRLTTY, applications. And then you have BRLTTY, which is straightforwardly an evolution which is straightforwardly an evolution which is straightforwardly an evolution of of of of of of running from the command line. So, it running from the command line. So, it running from the command line. So, it just reads text in the console and just reads text in the console and just reads text in the console and doesn't it it doesn't require any doesn't it it doesn't require any doesn't it it doesn't require any accessibility features per se. It it accessibility features per se. It it accessibility features per se. It it shows you what's on the console. shows you what's on the console. shows you what's on the console. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> Okay, so let's reset for folks that are >> Okay, so let's reset for folks that are >> Okay, so let's reset for folks that are listening cuz a lot of folks are hearing listening cuz a lot of folks are hearing listening cuz a lot of folks are hearing this audibly and can't see you and can't this audibly and can't see you and can't this audibly and can't see you and can't see the the Canute see the the Canute see the the Canute console premium behind you on your desk. console premium behind you on your desk. console premium behind you on your desk. So braille is this is this writing So braille is this is this writing So braille is this is this writing system that blind and visually impaired system that blind and visually impaired system that blind and visually impaired folks use. It's six six dots. Each folks use. It's six six dots. Each folks use. It's six six dots. Each letter is six dots. It's three dots in letter is six dots. It's three dots in letter is six dots. It's three dots in two columns. So two columns of three two columns. So two columns of three two columns. So two columns of three dots each. dots each. dots each. What you're a sighted person, what What you're a sighted person, what What you're a sighted person, what caused you to feel like this is a caused you to feel like this is a caused you to feel like this is a problem that you are and your your group problem that you are and your your group problem that you are and your your group is is ready to solve?

is is ready to solve? is is ready to solve? >> If you dwell on that for a minute, it's >> If you dwell on that for a minute, it's >> If you dwell on that for a minute, it's six dots and it represents the entire six dots and it represents the entire six dots and it represents the entire alphabet, every alphabet. Pretty much alphabet, every alphabet. Pretty much alphabet, every alphabet. Pretty much every every alphabet in the world. every every alphabet in the world. every every alphabet in the world. Uh there are some some cases where no Uh there are some some cases where no Uh there are some some cases where no one's got round to it yet, but it one's got round to it yet, but it one's got round to it yet, but it you know, there's Tibetan braille as as you know, there's Tibetan braille as as you know, there's Tibetan braille as as an example. an example. an example. Um Um Um and music notation uh and and uh uh and music notation uh and and uh uh and music notation uh and and uh uh various other systems, the computer various other systems, the computer various other systems, the computer science, the the the the number space science, the the the the number space science, the the the the number space work. And it's all the same six dots and work. And it's all the same six dots and work. And it's all the same six dots and it's all space to tenths of an inch it's all space to tenths of an inch it's all space to tenths of an inch between each dot. It fits under the pad between each dot. It fits under the pad between each dot. It fits under the pad of your finger and it was invented by a of your finger and it was invented by a of your finger and it was invented by a 15-year-old French boy 200 years ago. 15-year-old French boy 200 years ago. 15-year-old French boy 200 years ago. Isn't that incredible? Isn't that incredible? Isn't that incredible? >> I mean, it makes me want to learn it, >> I mean, it makes me want to learn it, >> I mean, it makes me want to learn it, actually. actually. actually. >> Well, exactly. And it's it's so um >> Well, exactly. And it's it's so um >> Well, exactly. And it's it's so um brutally clean. There's no type Does it brutally clean. There's no type Does it brutally clean. There's no type Does it type faces? Well, there is somewhat a type faces? Well, there is somewhat a type faces? Well, there is somewhat a type face in the sense that some type face in the sense that some type face in the sense that some countries like Japan uses a slightly countries like Japan uses a slightly countries like Japan uses a slightly smaller braille cell than some other smaller braille cell than some other smaller braille cell than some other countries, but not meaningfully any type countries, but not meaningfully any type countries, but not meaningfully any type faces. Um faces. Um faces. Um and everything is arranged in a grid.

and everything is arranged in a grid. and everything is arranged in a grid. It's just got this It's just got this It's just got this austere beauty to it. And it was the I austere beauty to it. And it was the I austere beauty to it. And it was the I think the first the first um binary, you think the first the first um binary, you think the first the first um binary, you know, byte-based system uh because it's know, byte-based system uh because it's know, byte-based system uh because it's a six byte it's a six bit byte. a six byte it's a six bit byte. a six byte it's a six bit byte. Um numbers, for example, are represented Um numbers, for example, are represented Um numbers, for example, are represented with the first 10 letters of the with the first 10 letters of the with the first 10 letters of the alphabet with a hash sign put in front alphabet with a hash sign put in front alphabet with a hash sign put in front of it. or it's on literally a hash sign of it. or it's on literally a hash sign of it. or it's on literally a hash sign but represented in text as a hash sign. but represented in text as a hash sign. but represented in text as a hash sign. And that's just very appealing and then And that's just very appealing and then And that's just very appealing and then you put in the the challenge, the you put in the the challenge, the you put in the the challenge, the engineering challenge of okay, but those engineering challenge of okay, but those engineering challenge of okay, but those have got to be dots that are a 20th of have got to be dots that are a 20th of have got to be dots that are a 20th of an inch high, perfectly rounded, they uh an inch high, perfectly rounded, they uh an inch high, perfectly rounded, they uh um um um a 10th of an inch between each dot. a 10th of an inch between each dot. a 10th of an inch between each dot. You need have hundreds of those in the You need have hundreds of those in the You need have hundreds of those in the case of the Canute uh Canute Scientific case of the Canute uh Canute Scientific case of the Canute uh Canute Scientific behind me, you need to have 2,160 of behind me, you need to have 2,160 of behind me, you need to have 2,160 of those dots. They need to move up and those dots. They need to move up and those dots. They need to move up and down with reasonable speed down with reasonable speed down with reasonable speed and almost total accuracy 100,000 times. and almost total accuracy 100,000 times. and almost total accuracy 100,000 times. >> Go. So, this is a fun engineering >> Go. So, this is a fun engineering >> Go. So, this is a fun engineering problem. problem. problem. >> It's a fun engineering problem but it's >> It's a fun engineering problem but it's >> It's a fun engineering problem but it's and then you add on that that that and then you add on that that that and then you add on that that that people are being charged sometimes tens people are being charged sometimes tens people are being charged sometimes tens of thousands of dollars for this stuff of thousands of dollars for this stuff of thousands of dollars for this stuff and you think, come on, surely there's and you think, come on, surely there's and you think, come on, surely there's something. The answer is uh there is a something. The answer is uh there is a something. The answer is uh there is a lot of somethings and they're all really lot of somethings and they're all really lot of somethings and they're all really hard to do.

hard to do. hard to do. >> Historically, I have seen those one-line >> Historically, I have seen those one-line >> Historically, I have seen those one-line like 40-character, maybe maybe 60, maybe like 40-character, maybe maybe 60, maybe like 40-character, maybe maybe 60, maybe 80 single lines. It's just a it's a a 80 single lines. It's just a it's a a 80 single lines. It's just a it's a a black strip. black strip. black strip. Um and I and and and and they move and Um and I and and and and they move and Um and I and and and and they move and they they they hop up and down. Are they they they they hop up and down. Are they they they they hop up and down. Are they all mechanical? Like there's lots of all mechanical? Like there's lots of all mechanical? Like there's lots of fascinating things happening in the fascinating things happening in the fascinating things happening in the haptic space and the tactile space. Are haptic space and the tactile space. Are haptic space and the tactile space. Are you physically moving 360 refreshable you physically moving 360 refreshable you physically moving 360 refreshable pin cells up and down mechanically or pin cells up and down mechanically or pin cells up and down mechanically or are there new ways to think about how I are there new ways to think about how I are there new ways to think about how I could make a pip or a dot go up and be could make a pip or a dot go up and be could make a pip or a dot go up and be felt and then go and then retract? felt and then go and then retract? felt and then go and then retract? >> They were mechanical. I suppose >> They were mechanical. I suppose >> They were mechanical. I suppose you're asking about deformation of a you're asking about deformation of a you're asking about deformation of a surface as a potential surface as a potential surface as a potential >> Yeah, I guess that would be a way to >> Yeah, I guess that would be a way to >> Yeah, I guess that would be a way to look at it. look at it. look at it. >> Yeah, the problem with that is that that >> Yeah, the problem with that is that that >> Yeah, the problem with that is that that is a much harder challenge than um is a much harder challenge than um is a much harder challenge than um than mechanical because the deformation than mechanical because the deformation than mechanical because the deformation then would have to deform into a perfect then would have to deform into a perfect then would have to deform into a perfect rounded dot at which point you might as rounded dot at which point you might as rounded dot at which point you might as well have a pin. well have a pin. well have a pin. >> And I assume people have an expectation. >> And I assume people have an expectation. >> And I assume people have an expectation. They have an expectation of what it They have an expectation of what it They have an expectation of what it should feel like. should feel like. should feel like. >> Yeah, you mean if and and if your >> Yeah, you mean if and and if your >> Yeah, you mean if and and if your manufacturing is is everyone's manufacturing is is everyone's manufacturing is is everyone's everyone's manufacturing slightly everyone's manufacturing slightly everyone's manufacturing slightly different so different so different so ours is is very hard but it's very and ours is is very hard but it's very and ours is is very hard but it's very and it's somewhat sharp if you're if you it's somewhat sharp if you're if you it's somewhat sharp if you're if you press hard on it. A lot of people like press hard on it. A lot of people like press hard on it. A lot of people like it, but everyone's a slightly different.

it, but everyone's a slightly different. it, but everyone's a slightly different. So, the idea that it's possible to So, the idea that it's possible to So, the idea that it's possible to create a deformable surface which create a deformable surface which create a deformable surface which comprises the braille dots is an comprises the braille dots is an comprises the braille dots is an unnerving idea. It's probably not the unnerving idea. It's probably not the unnerving idea. It's probably not the best place to start. best place to start. best place to start. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. I'm just kind of wondering if there's I'm just kind of wondering if there's I'm just kind of wondering if there's like an e-ink display for braille in the like an e-ink display for braille in the like an e-ink display for braille in the sense of like LCDs have a purpose and sense of like LCDs have a purpose and sense of like LCDs have a purpose and and then e-ink came out and we as and then e-ink came out and we as and then e-ink came out and we as sighted people said, "Oh, this is sighted people said, "Oh, this is sighted people said, "Oh, this is delightful for reading." Is there some delightful for reading." Is there some delightful for reading." Is there some other thinking or or creativity around other thinking or or creativity around other thinking or or creativity around how one could deform a how one could deform a how one could deform a >> Well, if you if you go back to the pin >> Well, if you if you go back to the pin >> Well, if you if you go back to the pin technology, there are a number of technology, there are a number of technology, there are a number of different ways. And those ones you're different ways. And those ones you're different ways. And those ones you're talking about, which have been around talking about, which have been around talking about, which have been around since the '80s or something, that's a since the '80s or something, that's a since the '80s or something, that's a piezoelectric cell. So, each one of piezoelectric cell. So, each one of piezoelectric cell. So, each one of those has a strip of every every one of those has a strip of every every one of those has a strip of every every one of those dots has a strip about 4 in long, those dots has a strip about 4 in long, those dots has a strip about 4 in long, I think, of a piezoelectric, which is a I think, of a piezoelectric, which is a I think, of a piezoelectric, which is a ceramic material. When you pass through ceramic material. When you pass through ceramic material. When you pass through it a high voltage of a low current it a high voltage of a low current it a high voltage of a low current through it, it it warps very slightly through it, it it warps very slightly through it, it it warps very slightly and moves a pin up and down. It It isn't and moves a pin up and down. It It isn't and moves a pin up and down. It It isn't hold much. You know, you can press it hold much. You know, you can press it hold much. You know, you can press it back down again. It It's not got much back down again. It It's not got much back down again. It It's not got much force, but that works. It works very force, but that works. It works very force, but that works. It works very well. It's just that those those well. It's just that those those well. It's just that those those piezoelectric strips are very expensive. piezoelectric strips are very expensive. piezoelectric strips are very expensive. Our technology actually doesn't have any Our technology actually doesn't have any Our technology actually doesn't have any pins at all. So, we have 2,160 pins at all. So, we have 2,160 pins at all. So, we have 2,160 dots, but no pins at all. We only have dots, but no pins at all. We only have dots, but no pins at all. We only have 1,000 moving parts in the whole device 1,000 moving parts in the whole device 1,000 moving parts in the whole device cuz we use a series of octagons.

cuz we use a series of octagons. cuz we use a series of octagons. Um So, we only have 100 motors in there Um So, we only have 100 motors in there Um So, we only have 100 motors in there and two of those are vibration motors we and two of those are vibration motors we and two of those are vibration motors we don't actually tend to use. So, 98 don't actually tend to use. So, 98 don't actually tend to use. So, 98 motors and those are So, we use a 720 motors and those are So, we use a 720 motors and those are So, we use a 720 octagons, which you uh which you spin octagons, which you uh which you spin octagons, which you uh which you spin into new positions into new positions into new positions uh and the pin the pins are actually uh and the pin the pins are actually uh and the pin the pins are actually Well, there are no pins. The dots are Well, there are no pins. The dots are Well, there are no pins. The dots are embossed around the outside of these embossed around the outside of these embossed around the outside of these octagons. So, um we we we essentially um octagons. So, um we we we essentially um octagons. So, um we we we essentially um remove the part of the braille display remove the part of the braille display remove the part of the braille display which causes the most cost, which is which causes the most cost, which is which causes the most cost, which is individually activating six different individually activating six different individually activating six different dots for each cell. And we only have 98 dots for each cell. And we only have 98 dots for each cell. And we only have 98 actuators and a lot of little clockwork actuators and a lot of little clockwork actuators and a lot of little clockwork parts. And we build that in in Britain parts. And we build that in in Britain parts. And we build that in in Britain in our own workshop. I'm here now. It's in our own workshop. I'm here now. It's in our own workshop. I'm here now. It's about 700 sq ft and we build the world's about 700 sq ft and we build the world's about 700 sq ft and we build the world's most affordable Braille cell technology. most affordable Braille cell technology. most affordable Braille cell technology. It's about 12 pounds. That's what, $17 It's about 12 pounds. That's what, $17 It's about 12 pounds. That's what, $17 per Braille cell, which doesn't sound per Braille cell, which doesn't sound per Braille cell, which doesn't sound that little, but when you think how much that little, but when you think how much that little, but when you think how much it costs to build these and to ship them it costs to build these and to ship them it costs to build these and to ship them around. around. around. And we are as um I should I should And we are as um I should I should And we are as um I should I should emphasize we're a very small company. emphasize we're a very small company. emphasize we're a very small company. So, we um So, we um So, we um >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> we're really the the minnow swimming >> we're really the the minnow swimming >> we're really the the minnow swimming swimming with sharks here.

swimming with sharks here. swimming with sharks here. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. So, So, So, you're saying that a Braille workstation you're saying that a Braille workstation you're saying that a Braille workstation with one line might cost thousands of with one line might cost thousands of with one line might cost thousands of dollars. I mean, might might be like dollars. I mean, might might be like dollars. I mean, might might be like used car money. And you've got nine used car money. And you've got nine used car money. And you've got nine times the data, nine times the lines. times the data, nine times the lines. times the data, nine times the lines. And a scre- And you also have a a And a scre- And you also have a a And a scre- And you also have a a screen. It's worth noting you also have screen. It's worth noting you also have screen. It's worth noting you also have a high-contrast 13-in monitor because a high-contrast 13-in monitor because a high-contrast 13-in monitor because not everyone has full, you know, um not everyone has full, you know, um not everyone has full, you know, um blindness. They may want that that top blindness. They may want that that top blindness. They may want that that top screen. screen. screen. >> Well, they'll also know >> Well, they'll also know >> Well, they'll also know a lot if whoever you are, you're going a lot if whoever you are, you're going a lot if whoever you are, you're going to work with a sighted person and uh to work with a sighted person and uh to work with a sighted person and uh two shades so two shades so two shades so on the the um the on the the um the on the the um the the Canute Scientific and on the Canute the Canute Scientific and on the Canute the Canute Scientific and on the Canute Console before that. The Canute Console Console before that. The Canute Console Console before that. The Canute Console is a a modular design that the Canute is a a modular design that the Canute is a a modular design that the Canute Scientific is the one that we're just Scientific is the one that we're just Scientific is the one that we're just releasing and they both they both have releasing and they both they both have releasing and they both they both have very they're both very similar in their very they're both very similar in their very they're both very similar in their um in their outlook. But, the it in the um in their outlook. But, the it in the um in their outlook. But, the it in the reason the way we build them with the reason the way we build them with the reason the way we build them with the open-source ethos and so on, but they open-source ethos and so on, but they open-source ethos and so on, but they both have a monitor, which as you say is both have a monitor, which as you say is both have a monitor, which as you say is 13-in and high-contrast, 13-in and high-contrast, 13-in and high-contrast, >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> which synchronizes exactly the same data >> which synchronizes exactly the same data >> which synchronizes exactly the same data to the Braille display, which is to the Braille display, which is to the Braille display, which is different. So, normally you have a different. So, normally you have a different. So, normally you have a Braille display and and either that is Braille display and and either that is Braille display and and either that is being that is reading a corner of a being that is reading a corner of a being that is reading a corner of a visual screen or it has no visual screen visual screen or it has no visual screen visual screen or it has no visual screen and you can plug one in, but it's but and you can plug one in, but it's but and you can plug one in, but it's but you always get more data visually or you always get more data visually or you always get more data visually or none at all none at all none at all than you get in Braille.

than you get in Braille. than you get in Braille. But, we've designed something from the But, we've designed something from the But, we've designed something from the scratch, which runs mostly in the scratch, which runs mostly in the scratch, which runs mostly in the command line, although you can open command line, although you can open command line, although you can open desktop applications now. desktop applications now. desktop applications now. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Which is designed to to make uh tables, >> Which is designed to to make uh tables, >> Which is designed to to make uh tables, uh charts, diagrams even, and uh of uh charts, diagrams even, and uh of uh charts, diagrams even, and uh of course, prose course, prose course, prose and programming and so on and programming and so on and programming and so on um have exactly the same layout. Because um have exactly the same layout. Because um have exactly the same layout. Because when we you were saying people are when we you were saying people are when we you were saying people are perhaps familiar with the sight of a perhaps familiar with the sight of a perhaps familiar with the sight of a single line braille display, single line braille display, single line braille display, >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> those are great. They have been very >> those are great. They have been very >> those are great. They have been very important. But important. But important. But text is not actually a linear medium. text is not actually a linear medium. text is not actually a linear medium. It it has structure. Especially tables It it has structure. Especially tables It it has structure. Especially tables are the easiest way of describing that are the easiest way of describing that are the easiest way of describing that of of persuading people of that because of of persuading people of that because of of persuading people of that because tables obviously have structure and you tables obviously have structure and you tables obviously have structure and you if you if you only present tabular data if you if you only present tabular data if you if you only present tabular data um uh horizontally one line at a time, um uh horizontally one line at a time, um uh horizontally one line at a time, then that um rather excludes all the then that um rather excludes all the then that um rather excludes all the possibilities that you might want to you possibilities that you might want to you possibilities that you might want to you might be looking at data which is might be looking at data which is might be looking at data which is vertical or at a di- at a diagonal. You vertical or at a di- at a diagonal. You vertical or at a di- at a diagonal. You know, a lot of table data is presented know, a lot of table data is presented know, a lot of table data is presented diagonally, which is something you don't diagonally, which is something you don't diagonally, which is something you don't you're not going to get however you mess you're not going to get however you mess you're not going to get however you mess around with that data.

around with that data. around with that data. But also just prose. Prose is not as But also just prose. Prose is not as But also just prose. Prose is not as linear as as as um the TXT format would linear as as as um the TXT format would linear as as as um the TXT format would make you think. It's a make you think. It's a make you think. It's a how stuff lines up how stuff lines up how stuff lines up top over tail informs how we read stuff, top over tail informs how we read stuff, top over tail informs how we read stuff, how the headings interact with the rest how the headings interact with the rest how the headings interact with the rest of it. of it. of it. >> I mean, certainly I >> I mean, certainly I >> I mean, certainly I simplistic but an example that just simplistic but an example that just simplistic but an example that just clicked for me would be poetry which you clicked for me would be poetry which you clicked for me would be poetry which you might want to move line a move forward might want to move line a move forward might want to move line a move forward and backwards within or explore a line and backwards within or explore a line and backwards within or explore a line and then move forward and then go I want and then move forward and then go I want and then move forward and then go I want to look at that line again. to look at that line again. to look at that line again. Before they would have to back up in Before they would have to back up in Before they would have to back up in their linear single line and now they their linear single line and now they their linear single line and now they can just move their hands up a line. can just move their hands up a line. can just move their hands up a line. >> And very similarly, music sheet music >> And very similarly, music sheet music >> And very similarly, music sheet music when you might have different you might when you might have different you might when you might have different you might have something for one hand on one line have something for one hand on one line have something for one hand on one line and another hand on the other line and and another hand on the other line and and another hand on the other line and you might have the vocals underneath you might have the vocals underneath you might have the vocals underneath that. Uh but it comes if you don't have that. Uh but it comes if you don't have that. Uh but it comes if you don't have multiple lines. So, we really just uh so multiple lines. So, we really just uh so multiple lines. So, we really just uh so we we we created our first display based we we we created our first display based we we we created our first display based off this technology though. off this technology though. off this technology though. Wearing octagonal discs if you like, Wearing octagonal discs if you like, Wearing octagonal discs if you like, which is very different and almost an which is very different and almost an which is very different and almost an entirely different category to normal entirely different category to normal entirely different category to normal braille displays. We created that in braille displays. We created that in braille displays. We created that in 2019-2020 and released it as an ebook 2019-2020 and released it as an ebook 2019-2020 and released it as an ebook reader purely for the pleasure of reader purely for the pleasure of reader purely for the pleasure of reading. And then we moved into making reading. And then we moved into making reading. And then we moved into making workstations so that people can workstations so that people can workstations so that people can use the open source software that we've use the open source software that we've use the open source software that we've been building to solve their own been building to solve their own been building to solve their own problems and share that with other problems and share that with other problems and share that with other people. And problems being something people. And problems being something people. And problems being something like like like I want to be an astrophysicist. I have I want to be an astrophysicist. I have I want to be an astrophysicist. I have all the talent and the enthusiasm for all the talent and the enthusiasm for all the talent and the enthusiasm for that. But I keep getting given these that. But I keep getting given these that. But I keep getting given these inaccessible things and inaccessible things and inaccessible things and I need the tools to solve my own I need the tools to solve my own I need the tools to solve my own problems. And then I want to present it problems. And then I want to present it problems. And then I want to present it to my sighted colleagues in a way where to my sighted colleagues in a way where to my sighted colleagues in a way where we can both interact with them equally.

we can both interact with them equally. we can both interact with them equally. And that's where the Canute Scientific And that's where the Canute Scientific And that's where the Canute Scientific and the Canute Console before that came and the Canute Console before that came and the Canute Console before that came from. from. from. >> The these discs, um, I want to make sure >> The these discs, um, I want to make sure >> The these discs, um, I want to make sure that I can visualize this and I we can that I can visualize this and I we can that I can visualize this and I we can sort of go online and learn more about sort of go online and learn more about sort of go online and learn more about it. Uh there's there's both the Canute it. Uh there's there's both the Canute it. Uh there's there's both the Canute Scientific and the all the Bristol Main Scientific and the all the Bristol Main Scientific and the all the Bristol Main Bristol Braille Main site has all of Bristol Braille Main site has all of Bristol Braille Main site has all of this as well as videos explaining it. this as well as videos explaining it. this as well as videos explaining it. But is it like a die or dice But is it like a die or dice But is it like a die or dice that is rotating? Or is it a disc in a that is rotating? Or is it a disc in a that is rotating? Or is it a disc in a single plane that is rotating in a single plane that is rotating in a single plane that is rotating in a circle? circle? circle? >> It's it's rotating in a single plane. So >> It's it's rotating in a single plane. So >> It's it's rotating in a single plane. So it's a it's an optic is is um 80 it's a it's an optic is is um 80 it's a it's an optic is is um 80 octagons on one on one bar, one steel octagons on one on one bar, one steel octagons on one on one bar, one steel bar. And those are spun and that gives bar. And those are spun and that gives bar. And those are spun and that gives you 40 characters. Two octagons on one you 40 characters. Two octagons on one you 40 characters. Two octagons on one Braille cell. If you think of a Braille Braille cell. If you think of a Braille Braille cell. If you think of a Braille character, as you said, six dots in two character, as you said, six dots in two character, as you said, six dots in two columns. But that's actually two columns columns. But that's actually two columns columns. But that's actually two columns of three dots. Two four eight eight of three dots. Two four eight eight of three dots. Two four eight eight possible combinations for each half of a possible combinations for each half of a possible combinations for each half of a Braille cell. Therefore, it fits around Braille cell. Therefore, it fits around Braille cell. Therefore, it fits around an octagon. an octagon. an octagon. >> That is very clever. That is very >> That is very clever. That is very >> That is very clever. That is very clever. And the thing that I think is clever. And the thing that I think is clever. And the thing that I think is really significant and I think that the really significant and I think that the really significant and I think that the all my listeners, sighted or otherwise, all my listeners, sighted or otherwise, all my listeners, sighted or otherwise, will appreciate is that it is will appreciate is that it is will appreciate is that it is delightfully repairable. Like you delightfully repairable. Like you delightfully repairable. Like you believe very strongly in the right to believe very strongly in the right to believe very strongly in the right to repair, field replaceable parts. Like if repair, field replaceable parts. Like if repair, field replaceable parts. Like if you're blind and your thing breaks, you you're blind and your thing breaks, you you're blind and your thing breaks, you want to be able to get it fixed. You want to be able to get it fixed. You want to be able to get it fixed. You don't want to have to ship it off and don't want to have to ship it off and don't want to have to ship it off and wait six to eight weeks or longer for wait six to eight weeks or longer for wait six to eight weeks or longer for your lifeline to be repaired. It should your lifeline to be repaired. It should your lifeline to be repaired. It should be open source. It should be repairable.

be open source. It should be repairable. be open source. It should be repairable. It shouldn't be a big giant company It shouldn't be a big giant company It shouldn't be a big giant company controls this and only one person knows controls this and only one person knows controls this and only one person knows how to fix it. how to fix it. how to fix it. >> Well, we released our first product, the >> Well, we released our first product, the >> Well, we released our first product, the Canute 360, very much under conventional Canute 360, very much under conventional Canute 360, very much under conventional in the conventional way that you do. in the conventional way that you do. in the conventional way that you do. Here is a product and if you need it we Here is a product and if you need it we Here is a product and if you need it we hope it won't break, but if it if if it hope it won't break, but if it if if it hope it won't break, but if it if if it does, we'll repair it for you. Don't does, we'll repair it for you. Don't does, we'll repair it for you. Don't worry about it. And it has a warranty. worry about it. And it has a warranty. worry about it. And it has a warranty. If it breaks after your warranty, in If it breaks after your warranty, in If it breaks after your warranty, in principle, then you'll have to come and principle, then you'll have to come and principle, then you'll have to come and get another one or pay pay us. get another one or pay pay us. get another one or pay pay us. >> [gasps] >> [gasps] >> [gasps] >> In practice, what ended up happening was >> In practice, what ended up happening was >> In practice, what ended up happening was we just fixed everyone's machines we just fixed everyone's machines we just fixed everyone's machines because because because each of these machines took a very long each of these machines took a very long each of these machines took a very long time to build, and we sweat um literal time to build, and we sweat um literal time to build, and we sweat um literal literal blood and sweat and tears would literal blood and sweat and tears would literal blood and sweat and tears would go into this, and neither of those three go into this, and neither of those three go into this, and neither of those three wasn't an exaggeration. Um wasn't an exaggeration. Um wasn't an exaggeration. Um we wanted all these machines to work, we wanted all these machines to work, we wanted all these machines to work, and people would say, "Oh, I kept and people would say, "Oh, I kept and people would say, "Oh, I kept getting stuck in customs. I can't even getting stuck in customs. I can't even getting stuck in customs. I can't even get it back from the Netherlands to to get it back from the Netherlands to to get it back from the Netherlands to to Britain because Britain because Britain because can I possibly fix it here? I'm not I'm can I possibly fix it here? I'm not I'm can I possibly fix it here? I'm not I'm you know I my my father's pretty good at you know I my my father's pretty good at you know I my my father's pretty good at this. He and I could work on it this. He and I could work on it this. He and I could work on it together." And we're all like, "That's together." And we're all like, "That's together." And we're all like, "That's we'll send you our repair manual." So, we'll send you our repair manual." So, we'll send you our repair manual." So, we never formalized that until the we never formalized that until the we never formalized that until the Canute Scientific came about. And we're Canute Scientific came about. And we're Canute Scientific came about. And we're like, "We're going to really formalize like, "We're going to really formalize like, "We're going to really formalize it." We it." We it." We We redesigned the chassis so it's all We redesigned the chassis so it's all We redesigned the chassis so it's all can be taken apart. It is not a simple can be taken apart. It is not a simple can be taken apart. It is not a simple task. It's not something you should do task. It's not something you should do task. It's not something you should do for fun. This is not like one of those for fun. This is not like one of those for fun. This is not like one of those Framework laptops where it's designed to Framework laptops where it's designed to Framework laptops where it's designed to be popped apart be popped apart be popped apart >> and Okay.

>> and Okay. >> and Okay. >> change it up. It's like I think of it >> change it up. It's like I think of it >> change it up. It's like I think of it like a car. You spend a lot of money on like a car. You spend a lot of money on like a car. You spend a lot of money on this. You have the right to try and fix this. You have the right to try and fix this. You have the right to try and fix that. If you If your carburetor gets that. If you If your carburetor gets that. If you If your carburetor gets gets clogged up, you have the right to gets clogged up, you have the right to gets clogged up, you have the right to to sort that thing out even though it's to sort that thing out even though it's to sort that thing out even though it's not simple. This is a thousand moving not simple. This is a thousand moving not simple. This is a thousand moving parts. It's not simple, but you have the parts. It's not simple, but you have the parts. It's not simple, but you have the right to do it, and we'll help you do right to do it, and we'll help you do right to do it, and we'll help you do that. that. that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And importantly, >> And importantly, >> And importantly, much like with cars where you have a much like with cars where you have a much like with cars where you have a where you have the most where you have the most where you have the most complex part is the is the engine, and complex part is the is the engine, and complex part is the is the engine, and the engine in a in a modern car can run the engine in a in a modern car can run the engine in a in a modern car can run for 150,000 mi or more. for 150,000 mi or more. for 150,000 mi or more. But people have to replace their cars But people have to replace their cars But people have to replace their cars far more often than that because all the far more often than that because all the far more often than that because all the electrics keep going wrong or go out of electrics keep going wrong or go out of electrics keep going wrong or go out of date and you know, and all of that date and you know, and all of that date and you know, and all of that stuff. So, I really dislike that. The stuff. So, I really dislike that. The stuff. So, I really dislike that. The braille display is the expensive part of braille display is the expensive part of braille display is the expensive part of this, this, this, and it's the part which is hopefully and it's the part which is hopefully and it's the part which is hopefully unchanging. unchanging. unchanging. What's not is the electronics underneath What's not is the electronics underneath What's not is the electronics underneath it, the Raspberry Pi 5 which controls it, the Raspberry Pi 5 which controls it, the Raspberry Pi 5 which controls that. We have ports on here which are that. We have ports on here which are that. We have ports on here which are not only modular in the sense of we'll not only modular in the sense of we'll not only modular in the sense of we'll sell you a a modular replacement in the sell you a a modular replacement in the sell you a a modular replacement in the future. No, they're lit- they're future. No, they're lit- they're future. No, they're lit- they're literally hubs which you can unplug and literally hubs which you can unplug and literally hubs which you can unplug and buy another one off Amazon if you wanted buy another one off Amazon if you wanted buy another one off Amazon if you wanted to and stick that one on instead. So, to and stick that one on instead. So, to and stick that one on instead. So, it's really as much as we can possibly it's really as much as we can possibly it's really as much as we can possibly make it, the person who owns it owns it.

make it, the person who owns it owns it. make it, the person who owns it owns it. >> So, you said a Raspberry Pi. So, in the >> So, you said a Raspberry Pi. So, in the >> So, you said a Raspberry Pi. So, in the past, you would use embedded operating past, you would use embedded operating past, you would use embedded operating systems, you know, but you're using open systems, you know, but you're using open systems, you know, but you're using open source hardware to make this happen. And source hardware to make this happen. And source hardware to make this happen. And have there been any challenges with that have there been any challenges with that have there been any challenges with that or did it just work? or did it just work? or did it just work? >> Actually, we in the past we used the >> Actually, we in the past we used the >> Actually, we in the past we used the Raspberry Pi 2. Got two in here. We've Raspberry Pi 2. Got two in here. We've Raspberry Pi 2. Got two in here. We've got the Raspberry Pi Zero controlling um got the Raspberry Pi Zero controlling um got the Raspberry Pi Zero controlling um the built-in operating system on the the built-in operating system on the the built-in operating system on the display itself. And then we've got a Pi display itself. And then we've got a Pi display itself. And then we've got a Pi 5 on the scientific uh which is for 5 on the scientific uh which is for 5 on the scientific uh which is for doing the applications. That's That's a doing the applications. That's That's a doing the applications. That's That's a a hangover just because the Pi Zero is a a hangover just because the Pi Zero is a a hangover just because the Pi Zero is a so fabulously cheap. They're a great way so fabulously cheap. They're a great way so fabulously cheap. They're a great way of building embedded systems. of building embedded systems. of building embedded systems. No, it's it's obviously I'm I say No, it's it's obviously I'm I say No, it's it's obviously I'm I say obviously, but to everyone that that obviously, but to everyone that that obviously, but to everyone that that works for systems, it's easier to use an works for systems, it's easier to use an works for systems, it's easier to use an an open system. an open system. an open system. It It It's a continues to be a mystery It It It's a continues to be a mystery It It It's a continues to be a mystery to me why people can continue to use to me why people can continue to use to me why people can continue to use like Android 8 or something as the basis like Android 8 or something as the basis like Android 8 or something as the basis of extremely expensive equipment. Um and of extremely expensive equipment. Um and of extremely expensive equipment. Um and then they and then you speak to the then they and then you speak to the then they and then you speak to the manufacturer about manufacturer about manufacturer about Can we upgrade this at some point? Like, Can we upgrade this at some point? Like, Can we upgrade this at some point? Like, "Oh, we're trying. We're trying." Well, "Oh, we're trying. We're trying." Well, "Oh, we're trying. We're trying." Well, What Why didn't you just use Debian? What Why didn't you just use Debian? What Why didn't you just use Debian? >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> You know, you're not running apps.

>> You know, you're not running apps. >> You know, you're not running apps. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um yeah, we're just we're just running >> Um yeah, we're just we're just running >> Um yeah, we're just we're just running the Raspberry Pi version of Debian on the Raspberry Pi version of Debian on the Raspberry Pi version of Debian on this. And if that that's There's this. And if that that's There's this. And if that that's There's problems, but none of the problems are problems, but none of the problems are problems, but none of the problems are to do with the operating system. That's to do with the operating system. That's to do with the operating system. That's the sole problem. People keep making it the sole problem. People keep making it the sole problem. People keep making it a problem by locking it down. If you a problem by locking it down. If you a problem by locking it down. If you don't lock it down. And the other The don't lock it down. And the other The don't lock it down. And the other The problem I mean, companies have is they problem I mean, companies have is they problem I mean, companies have is they feel like if they're open, someone's feel like if they're open, someone's feel like if they're open, someone's going to go and eat their supper. It's going to go and eat their supper. It's going to go and eat their supper. It's really hard building Braille displays. really hard building Braille displays. really hard building Braille displays. No one really wants to do it. No one's No one really wants to do it. No one's No one really wants to do it. No one's going to steal our stuff that that going to steal our stuff that that going to steal our stuff that that easily. And if anyone steals the the easily. And if anyone steals the the easily. And if anyone steals the the Canute designer and starts making it Canute designer and starts making it Canute designer and starts making it cheaper than us, we'll probably be their cheaper than us, we'll probably be their cheaper than us, we'll probably be their best customer. We'll badge it and sell best customer. We'll badge it and sell best customer. We'll badge it and sell it on again, you know. All right, it's it on again, you know. All right, it's it on again, you know. All right, it's it's better to be open on this stuff it's better to be open on this stuff it's better to be open on this stuff because when you are, you have a richer because when you are, you have a richer because when you are, you have a richer ecosystem which solves your problems ecosystem which solves your problems ecosystem which solves your problems faster from a purely personal as faster from a purely personal as faster from a purely personal as um selfish point of view. um selfish point of view. um selfish point of view. >> Yeah, that's such a positive and >> Yeah, that's such a positive and >> Yeah, that's such a positive and reasonable like this is why technology reasonable like this is why technology reasonable like this is why technology is supposed to exist. That's such a is supposed to exist. That's such a is supposed to exist. That's such a reasonable perspective. Like oh no, reasonable perspective. Like oh no, reasonable perspective. Like oh no, someone made our product 10 times someone made our product 10 times someone made our product 10 times cheaper and now more blind people get a cheaper and now more blind people get a cheaper and now more blind people get a great experience. Right, that would be great experience. Right, that would be great experience. Right, that would be fantastic. That would be you know, you fantastic. That would be you know, you fantastic. That would be you know, you might be like oh shoot, our little might be like oh shoot, our little might be like oh shoot, our little company's going to change but more blind company's going to change but more blind company's going to change but more blind people get this available. Uh like I people get this available. Uh like I people get this available. Uh like I mentioned it before we started recording mentioned it before we started recording mentioned it before we started recording that I use an open source artificial that I use an open source artificial that I use an open source artificial pancreas. So I use open source software pancreas. So I use open source software pancreas. So I use open source software and we use commercial hardware and we're and we use commercial hardware and we're and we use commercial hardware and we're working on things like open source working on things like open source working on things like open source insulin pumps and I'm always thinking to insulin pumps and I'm always thinking to insulin pumps and I'm always thinking to myself, man, I'm in the northern myself, man, I'm in the northern myself, man, I'm in the northern hemisphere. I am so lucky to have these hemisphere. I am so lucky to have these hemisphere. I am so lucky to have these things available and there's so many things available and there's so many things available and there's so many diabetics that don't have these. So from diabetics that don't have these. So from diabetics that don't have these. So from from your perspective, I can only assume from your perspective, I can only assume from your perspective, I can only assume that you're thinking that you're thinking that you're thinking every single blind person should have every single blind person should have every single blind person should have the option to have one of these in their

the option to have one of these in their the option to have one of these in their lives. We just need to figure out how to lives. We just need to figure out how to lives. We just need to figure out how to get them made and get them to them if get them made and get them to them if get them made and get them to them if they want them. they want them. they want them. >> Yeah, I mean don't get me wrong if >> Yeah, I mean don't get me wrong if >> Yeah, I mean don't get me wrong if someone steals our stuff, it would upset someone steals our stuff, it would upset someone steals our stuff, it would upset me deeply because that me deeply because that me deeply because that it's [laughter] upsetting because they it's [laughter] upsetting because they it's [laughter] upsetting because they stole it. They could have just stole it. They could have just stole it. They could have just >> Yeah, well the principle of the thing. >> Yeah, well the principle of the thing. >> Yeah, well the principle of the thing. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But I am actually very proud that we >> But I am actually very proud that we >> But I am actually very proud that we build it as about as affordably as as as build it as about as affordably as as as build it as about as affordably as as as it can be built given the capital we it can be built given the capital we it can be built given the capital we have here in Britain. Uh and we you have here in Britain. Uh and we you have here in Britain. Uh and we you don't need to to try and find someone don't need to to try and find someone don't need to to try and find someone who will cut costs in order to build who will cut costs in order to build who will cut costs in order to build cheaper equipment. Sometimes when you're cheaper equipment. Sometimes when you're cheaper equipment. Sometimes when you're working with working with working with I don't know, paying someone a I don't know, paying someone a I don't know, paying someone a reasonable hourly rate reasonable hourly rate reasonable hourly rate of over 100 pounds or whatever, a living of over 100 pounds or whatever, a living of over 100 pounds or whatever, a living wage is is going to is not the major wage is is going to is not the major wage is is going to is not the major problem that keeps the cost of complex problem that keeps the cost of complex problem that keeps the cost of complex equipment up. It's the support. It's the equipment up. It's the support. It's the equipment up. It's the support. It's the it's the design of in designing it it's the design of in designing it it's the design of in designing it better. better. better. And a lot of that stuff can be And a lot of that stuff can be And a lot of that stuff can be ameliorated in other ways. ameliorated in other ways. ameliorated in other ways. >> Yeah, that's a great point. Um I'm >> Yeah, that's a great point. Um I'm >> Yeah, that's a great point. Um I'm curious also, I've been spending I'm a curious also, I've been spending I'm a curious also, I've been spending I'm a coder of course and I spend a lot of coder of course and I spend a lot of coder of course and I spend a lot of time now doing coding with um with LLMs time now doing coding with um with LLMs time now doing coding with um with LLMs and I use a lot of voice.

and I use a lot of voice. and I use a lot of voice. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And you mentioned that you a lot of >> And you mentioned that you a lot of >> And you mentioned that you a lot of blind folks work at a terminal. The blind folks work at a terminal. The blind folks work at a terminal. The terminal lends itself, of course, to a terminal lends itself, of course, to a terminal lends itself, of course, to a great experience. Have you had any great experience. Have you had any great experience. Have you had any feedback that that a a nine-row feedback that that a a nine-row feedback that that a a nine-row larger braille display plus a coding LLM larger braille display plus a coding LLM larger braille display plus a coding LLM plus a terminal kind of changes the plus a terminal kind of changes the plus a terminal kind of changes the experience for blind developers? Cuz experience for blind developers? Cuz experience for blind developers? Cuz this feels like the perfect device for a this feels like the perfect device for a this feels like the perfect device for a blind developer. blind developer. blind developer. >> The console, which is the the sister >> The console, which is the the sister >> The console, which is the the sister product to this one that came before it, product to this one that came before it, product to this one that came before it, the console is a dock where we you dock the console is a dock where we you dock the console is a dock where we you dock the braille the braille the braille uh you dock uh you dock uh you dock a can you braille a reader, which I'd a can you braille a reader, which I'd a can you braille a reader, which I'd said was a product released in 2019 into said was a product released in 2019 into said was a product released in 2019 into this to make it into a work workstation. this to make it into a work workstation. this to make it into a work workstation. Then we redesigned it to be more open um Then we redesigned it to be more open um Then we redesigned it to be more open um literally openable in the sense of it literally openable in the sense of it literally openable in the sense of it can be dismantled, and then it became can be dismantled, and then it became can be dismantled, and then it became the scientific. The the the console was the scientific. The the the console was the scientific. The the the console was just so named because it was designed just so named because it was designed just so named because it was designed for developers working in the command for developers working in the command for developers working in the command line. And it's a really nice line. And it's a really nice line. And it's a really nice environment. environment. environment. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Especially a nicer environment for >> Especially a nicer environment for >> Especially a nicer environment for working with a LLM than it is for working with a LLM than it is for working with a LLM than it is for working in the code that you wrote working in the code that you wrote working in the code that you wrote yourself, of course. yourself, of course. yourself, of course. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> It's >> It's >> It's anything where you get to have the anything where you get to have the anything where you get to have the context of seeing seeing the um context of seeing seeing the um context of seeing seeing the um of seeing the full function of seeing the full function of seeing the full function it always it has obvious advantage. You it always it has obvious advantage. You it always it has obvious advantage. You don't have to have build that model up don't have to have build that model up don't have to have build that model up in your head. And it is especially in your head. And it is especially in your head. And it is especially difficult with Python and difficult with Python and difficult with Python and >> Mhm.

>> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> and languages which insist upon >> and languages which insist upon >> and languages which insist upon certain forms of white space because you certain forms of white space because you certain forms of white space because you can't can't can't that means you can't as a developer that means you can't as a developer that means you can't as a developer decide to strip all the white space out decide to strip all the white space out decide to strip all the white space out because it works better on your braille because it works better on your braille because it works better on your braille display and then or or you know, you display and then or or you know, you display and then or or you know, you can't get away with doing it your way as can't get away with doing it your way as can't get away with doing it your way as a braille reader that doesn't need a braille reader that doesn't need a braille reader that doesn't need indentation. indentation. indentation. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It won't run. >> It won't run. >> It won't run. So, So, So, >> Suddenly I started thinking about YAML >> Suddenly I started thinking about YAML >> Suddenly I started thinking about YAML on a braille display would be like the on a braille display would be like the on a braille display would be like the ultimate challenge. ultimate challenge. ultimate challenge. >> This application behind us, this is the >> This application behind us, this is the >> This application behind us, this is the this is the launcher menu, which is this is the launcher menu, which is this is the launcher menu, which is itself simply a YAML file, which is itself simply a YAML file, which is itself simply a YAML file, which is piped to our piped to our piped to our one of our functions. So, we've built a one of our functions. So, we've built a one of our functions. So, we've built a whole set of functions which enable whole set of functions which enable whole set of functions which enable someone to build applications just by someone to build applications just by someone to build applications just by writing YAML files. So, [snorts] you can writing YAML files. So, [snorts] you can writing YAML files. So, [snorts] you can write YAML file for a grid, for a write YAML file for a grid, for a write YAML file for a grid, for a for a grid, for a diagram, for a table, for a grid, for a diagram, for a table, for a grid, for a diagram, for a table, or for a or for a or for a um um um uh a menu, of course, and and forms. I uh a menu, of course, and and forms. I uh a menu, of course, and and forms. I say a table, I don't think you could do say a table, I don't think you could do say a table, I don't think you could do it for a table, but and of course, you it for a table, but and of course, you it for a table, but and of course, you you don't necessarily want to write your you don't necessarily want to write your you don't necessarily want to write your own YAML files, you might want to give own YAML files, you might want to give own YAML files, you might want to give you might want to pipe some CSV to that, you might want to pipe some CSV to that, you might want to pipe some CSV to that, so you can generate YAML from that, but so you can generate YAML from that, but so you can generate YAML from that, but the idea is we want people to throw the idea is we want people to throw the idea is we want people to throw together solutions very quickly. And together solutions very quickly. And together solutions very quickly. And that's that's where we have to find our that's that's where we have to find our that's that's where we have to find our strength, because we are a small strength, because we are a small strength, because we are a small organization. What we are hoping is we organization. What we are hoping is we organization. What we are hoping is we want to find mainstream partners want to find mainstream partners want to find mainstream partners who want to roll out ex um who want to roll out ex um who want to roll out ex um blind accessible makerspaces. That's our blind accessible makerspaces. That's our blind accessible makerspaces. That's our That's the reason we're calling it the That's the reason we're calling it the That's the reason we're calling it the scientific. I've got 40-pin a 40-pin out

scientific. I've got 40-pin a 40-pin out scientific. I've got 40-pin a 40-pin out here on this the side of this one, here on this the side of this one, here on this the side of this one, because we want to we want to be because we want to we want to be because we want to we want to be plugging in sensors and oscilloscopes plugging in sensors and oscilloscopes plugging in sensors and oscilloscopes and robotic arms and so on. and robotic arms and so on. and robotic arms and so on. Um Um Um we 3D print many of the components, and we 3D print many of the components, and we 3D print many of the components, and we've been working with the we've been working with the we've been working with the Clovernook Center in Ohio to investigate Clovernook Center in Ohio to investigate Clovernook Center in Ohio to investigate um um um letting uh 3D printing be more letting uh 3D printing be more letting uh 3D printing be more accessible. But that's what I'm really accessible. But that's what I'm really accessible. But that's what I'm really hoping for is to meet organizations who hoping for is to meet organizations who hoping for is to meet organizations who are mainstream in terms of they they're are mainstream in terms of they they're are mainstream in terms of they they're not from our industry, not from our industry, not from our industry, but they want to experiment with making but they want to experiment with making but they want to experiment with making their spaces accessible, their spaces accessible, their spaces accessible, and we can work together, because there and we can work together, because there and we can work together, because there is a whole community of blind people is a whole community of blind people is a whole community of blind people who already experimenting with this and who already experimenting with this and who already experimenting with this and can can work so fast if if given the can can work so fast if if given the can can work so fast if if given the tools tools tools and um and the space to do it in. and um and the space to do it in. and um and the space to do it in. >> How does the word get out? Is it Is it >> How does the word get out? Is it Is it >> How does the word get out? Is it Is it word of mouth? Is it podcast? Is it word of mouth? Is it podcast? Is it word of mouth? Is it podcast? Is it YouTube's? Because if I feel like if I YouTube's? Because if I feel like if I YouTube's? Because if I feel like if I am blind and I'd love to hear from read am blind and I'd love to hear from read am blind and I'd love to hear from read from listeners, from listeners, from listeners, uh and I heard about this uh and I heard about this uh and I heard about this I I would I need this now. Like in my I I would I need this now. Like in my I I would I need this now. Like in my diabetes community, people hear about it diabetes community, people hear about it diabetes community, people hear about it by word of mouth. They go, "Oh, by word of mouth. They go, "Oh, by word of mouth. They go, "Oh, this is what I need." Or you remember this is what I need." Or you remember this is what I need." Or you remember that wheelchair that would go from four that wheelchair that would go from four that wheelchair that would go from four wheels to two and it would allow people wheels to two and it would allow people wheels to two and it would allow people in a wheelchair to like stand on their in a wheelchair to like stand on their in a wheelchair to like stand on their on their tippy toes because the or go on their tippy toes because the or go on their tippy toes because the or go upstairs. [clears throat] Like as soon upstairs. [clears throat] Like as soon upstairs. [clears throat] Like as soon as the word comes out about that, it's as the word comes out about that, it's as the word comes out about that, it's like, oh, I must have this in my life.

like, oh, I must have this in my life. like, oh, I must have this in my life. Do people learn about about Bristol Do people learn about about Bristol Do people learn about about Bristol Braille and then just immediately reach Braille and then just immediately reach Braille and then just immediately reach out? Have you had amazing stories of out? Have you had amazing stories of out? Have you had amazing stories of enthusiastic people who were like, this enthusiastic people who were like, this enthusiastic people who were like, this is it. I need it. is it. I need it. is it. I need it. >> Yeah, we had a I had a call yesterday at >> Yeah, we had a I had a call yesterday at >> Yeah, we had a I had a call yesterday at 2:00 in the morning local time for the 2:00 in the morning local time for the 2:00 in the morning local time for the >> Oh, no. >> Oh, no. >> Oh, no. >> It wasn't It was perfectly reasonable my >> It wasn't It was perfectly reasonable my >> It wasn't It was perfectly reasonable my he was just very enthused. He'd heard us he was just very enthused. He'd heard us he was just very enthused. He'd heard us on a podcast and that was really great. on a podcast and that was really great. on a podcast and that was really great. We talked amongst other things at great We talked amongst other things at great We talked amongst other things at great length about Niki Lauda. But, you know, length about Niki Lauda. But, you know, length about Niki Lauda. But, you know, you go off on tangents. We won't go into you go off on tangents. We won't go into you go off on tangents. We won't go into the Niki Lauda conversation right now. the Niki Lauda conversation right now. the Niki Lauda conversation right now. Formula 1 Formula 1 Formula 1 champion for those who who don't know. champion for those who who don't know. champion for those who who don't know. And now And now And now But, yeah, that I But, I hope whenever But, yeah, that I But, I hope whenever But, yeah, that I But, I hope whenever we talk about it, we I I need to get we talk about it, we I I need to get we talk about it, we I I need to get round to telling you what the difference round to telling you what the difference round to telling you what the difference is that are disadvantages about our is that are disadvantages about our is that are disadvantages about our technology as well because Yeah. I I technology as well because Yeah. I I technology as well because Yeah. I I hope that when people when we talk about hope that when people when we talk about hope that when people when we talk about it, it comes across very clearly that we it, it comes across very clearly that we it, it comes across very clearly that we aren't proposing that we're better than aren't proposing that we're better than aren't proposing that we're better than the other multi-line displays which the other multi-line displays which the other multi-line displays which might be more expensive but have their might be more expensive but have their might be more expensive but have their own features. We're proposing that we own features. We're proposing that we own features. We're proposing that we have a different philosophy based around have a different philosophy based around have a different philosophy based around empowering people to own their own empowering people to own their own empowering people to own their own technology. Even if sometimes a technology. Even if sometimes a technology. Even if sometimes a technology you own is kind of clunky or technology you own is kind of clunky or technology you own is kind of clunky or chunkier and it makes a it makes a a fun chunkier and it makes a it makes a a fun chunkier and it makes a it makes a a fun noise when it refreshes and so on and so noise when it refreshes and so on and so noise when it refreshes and so on and so forth. It is yours.

forth. It is yours. forth. It is yours. And you could have afforded it. And you could have afforded it. And you could have afforded it. And that honestly does get us some And that honestly does get us some And that honestly does get us some people coming up and and just having people coming up and and just having people coming up and and just having very long conversations. And we then very long conversations. And we then very long conversations. And we then if they buy, we build custom if they buy, we build custom if they buy, we build custom applications for each of those customers applications for each of those customers applications for each of those customers that buys into our our premium at least. that buys into our our premium at least. that buys into our our premium at least. And for someone who hasn't bought And for someone who hasn't bought And for someone who hasn't bought premium, we certainly still listen to premium, we certainly still listen to premium, we certainly still listen to what they want and try and build it what they want and try and build it what they want and try and build it where as soon as we can. where as soon as we can. where as soon as we can. But, the short answer to how most people But, the short answer to how most people But, the short answer to how most people find out about this is events. find out about this is events. find out about this is events. So, we So, we So, we It won't really be that surprising to It won't really be that surprising to It won't really be that surprising to know that Braille displays are something know that Braille displays are something know that Braille displays are something that you tend to want to touch to get that you tend to want to touch to get that you tend to want to touch to get to get a real feel for. So, to get a real feel for. So, to get a real feel for. So, uh we we try and do as many events as we uh we we try and do as many events as we uh we we try and do as many events as we can. We do we do something like two two can. We do we do something like two two can. We do we do something like two two a month. a month. a month. >> Oh, wow. >> Oh, wow. >> Oh, wow. >> And when we can. But of course that >> And when we can. But of course that >> And when we can. But of course that becomes that becomes difficult for a becomes that becomes difficult for a becomes that becomes difficult for a very small company when these events are very small company when these events are very small company when these events are all over the world. all over the world. all over the world. >> Yeah, indeed. >> Yeah, indeed. >> Yeah, indeed. Um you're sighted, but do I assume you Um you're sighted, but do I assume you Um you're sighted, but do I assume you read Braille and what does that feel read Braille and what does that feel read Braille and what does that feel like? like? like? >> Well, you you can read Braille and you >> Well, you you can read Braille and you >> Well, you you can read Braille and you can see Braille. So, you can read can see Braille. So, you can read can see Braille. So, you can read Braille visually. Braille visually. Braille visually. >> too. You're right.

>> too. You're right. >> too. You're right. >> Yeah. And it will depend for me I um >> Yeah. And it will depend for me I um >> Yeah. And it will depend for me I um I tend to do both. I tend to do both. I tend to do both. >> Hm. >> Hm. >> Hm. >> Because >> Because >> Because um um um because re- reading is easier to get a because re- reading is easier to get a because re- reading is easier to get a vague idea for where to look. vague idea for where to look. vague idea for where to look. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Because I'm because I I'm highly sighted >> Because I'm because I I'm highly sighted >> Because I'm because I I'm highly sighted dependent, if you like. Uh sight dependent, if you like. Uh sight dependent, if you like. Uh sight dependent. Um dependent. Um dependent. Um but it's very hard to pick out dot but it's very hard to pick out dot but it's very hard to pick out dot errors. So, you use your finger to spot errors. So, you use your finger to spot errors. So, you use your finger to spot whether there's a mistake. Cuz of course whether there's a mistake. Cuz of course whether there's a mistake. Cuz of course one of the main purposes of me reading one of the main purposes of me reading one of the main purposes of me reading Braille Braille Braille is quality checking of the devices and is quality checking of the devices and is quality checking of the devices and sending it back to have a rib replaced. sending it back to have a rib replaced. sending it back to have a rib replaced. That's what we call our um a column of That's what we call our um a column of That's what we call our um a column of Braille. That's our that's our smallest Braille. That's our that's our smallest Braille. That's our that's our smallest module. module. module. Um Um Um because the motor is a bit laggy or because the motor is a bit laggy or because the motor is a bit laggy or something like that. So, that that you something like that. So, that that you something like that. So, that that you really have to rely on both sight and really have to rely on both sight and really have to rely on both sight and touch to do that. So, that as a sighted touch to do that. So, that as a sighted touch to do that. So, that as a sighted person person person it really depends on the on the the it really depends on the on the the it really depends on the on the the device you're reading. And ours is very device you're reading. And ours is very device you're reading. And ours is very easy to touch read easy to touch read easy to touch read whether you're sighted or not. And it whether you're sighted or not. And it whether you're sighted or not. And it also has been made hard because as I also has been made hard because as I also has been made hard because as I literally the Braille the Braille dots literally the Braille the Braille dots literally the Braille the Braille dots are hard, which they normally they're are hard, which they normally they're are hard, which they normally they're much softer for another devices because much softer for another devices because much softer for another devices because we worked a lot with people who were um we worked a lot with people who were um we worked a lot with people who were um diabetic in our early years and that diabetic in our early years and that diabetic in our early years and that causes uh neuropathy, which means causes uh neuropathy, which means causes uh neuropathy, which means you may have learned Braille, but you you may have learned Braille, but you you may have learned Braille, but you haven't really been getting on with it haven't really been getting on with it haven't really been getting on with it much these days because it's not quite much these days because it's not quite much these days because it's not quite as easy anymore.

as easy anymore. as easy anymore. >> Yeah, diabetes the leading cause of >> Yeah, diabetes the leading cause of >> Yeah, diabetes the leading cause of blindness and certainly uh the thing blindness and certainly uh the thing blindness and certainly uh the thing that is awful about it is that your that is awful about it is that your that is awful about it is that your fingers go numb as well. So, yes, hard fingers go numb as well. So, yes, hard fingers go numb as well. So, yes, hard Braille would be far easier for it Braille would be far easier for it Braille would be far easier for it uh a blind person who has become uh uh a blind person who has become uh uh a blind person who has become uh blind because of diabetes. blind because of diabetes. blind because of diabetes. Do your brain click and change in some Do your brain click and change in some Do your brain click and change in some way when you start like when you're way when you start like when you're way when you start like when you're learning a quote unquote foreign learning a quote unquote foreign learning a quote unquote foreign language, but you translate in your head language, but you translate in your head language, but you translate in your head and then at some point it clicks. So, and then at some point it clicks. So, and then at some point it clicks. So, whether you're reading braille sighted whether you're reading braille sighted whether you're reading braille sighted or whether you're feeling it I'm just or whether you're feeling it I'm just or whether you're feeling it I'm just it seems like I mean like Americans are it seems like I mean like Americans are it seems like I mean like Americans are very fascinated with like learning very fascinated with like learning very fascinated with like learning like American sign language. Like it's like American sign language. Like it's like American sign language. Like it's always a good idea to know a little bit always a good idea to know a little bit always a good idea to know a little bit of light sign language. I know there's of light sign language. I know there's of light sign language. I know there's BSL, there's ASL over here. Is there is BSL, there's ASL over here. Is there is BSL, there's ASL over here. Is there is there any value in in a sighted there any value in in a sighted there any value in in a sighted developer or a sighted person thinking developer or a sighted person thinking developer or a sighted person thinking about braille because I want to I'm about braille because I want to I'm about braille because I want to I'm thinking out loud here, but you know, if thinking out loud here, but you know, if thinking out loud here, but you know, if a blind person and a sighted person are a blind person and a sighted person are a blind person and a sighted person are equally talented what tooling is equally talented what tooling is equally talented what tooling is unfairly slowing the blind person down, unfairly slowing the blind person down, unfairly slowing the blind person down, the blind developer or the blind the blind developer or the blind the blind developer or the blind knowledge worker down and what could I knowledge worker down and what could I knowledge worker down and what could I do as a sighted person to make tools do as a sighted person to make tools do as a sighted person to make tools that can interface with something like a that can interface with something like a that can interface with something like a Canute Scientific to eliminate that gap?

Canute Scientific to eliminate that gap? Canute Scientific to eliminate that gap? >> Well, the second half of that first then >> Well, the second half of that first then >> Well, the second half of that first then the second half was about the the second half was about the the second half was about the the gap and and that on whether the data the gap and and that on whether the data the gap and and that on whether the data is inherently visual or not because if is inherently visual or not because if is inherently visual or not because if the data is inherently visual then there the data is inherently visual then there the data is inherently visual then there is an inherent disadvantage if you're is an inherent disadvantage if you're is an inherent disadvantage if you're asking someone to look at a if you're asking someone to look at a if you're asking someone to look at a if you're asking someone to look at a JPEG of a asking someone to look at a JPEG of a asking someone to look at a JPEG of a family photo, there's a lot of detail. family photo, there's a lot of detail. family photo, there's a lot of detail. There's there's there's mountains that There's there's there's mountains that There's there's there's mountains that go down to ridiculously level of of go down to ridiculously level of of go down to ridiculously level of of grain in the background of that. There grain in the background of that. There grain in the background of that. There are means of doing that through tactile are means of doing that through tactile are means of doing that through tactile graphics, but they are not equal. graphics, but they are not equal. graphics, but they are not equal. They're not an equal experience. They're They're not an equal experience. They're They're not an equal experience. They're different. Not necessarily worse, but different. Not necessarily worse, but different. Not necessarily worse, but they are much less detailed. Braille they are much less detailed. Braille they are much less detailed. Braille though though though is equal in the sense that someone can is equal in the sense that someone can is equal in the sense that someone can learn to read as fast. The it's been learn to read as fast. The it's been learn to read as fast. The it's been measured in sense people have done measured in sense people have done measured in sense people have done studies and the studies and the studies and the the four the way that the data is the four the way that the data is the four the way that the data is remembered, the sort of proactivity of remembered, the sort of proactivity of remembered, the sort of proactivity of of remembering it when you read with of remembering it when you read with of remembering it when you read with braille or print is about the same and braille or print is about the same and braille or print is about the same and so on and so forth. So, it is identical so on and so forth. So, it is identical so on and so forth. So, it is identical essentially for practical purposes. So, essentially for practical purposes. So, essentially for practical purposes. So, if if if uh your data is textual or numeric, uh your data is textual or numeric, uh your data is textual or numeric, the most important thing is not is is to the most important thing is not is is to the most important thing is not is is to is to note that actually underlying this is to note that actually underlying this is to note that actually underlying this is textual and numeric data and not to is textual and numeric data and not to is textual and numeric data and not to make it unnecessarily to bake in some make it unnecessarily to bake in some make it unnecessarily to bake in some visuals.

visuals. visuals. So, if you're showing someone a chart, So, if you're showing someone a chart, So, if you're showing someone a chart, give them the underlying data so that give them the underlying data so that give them the underlying data so that they can read the data and possibly, if they can read the data and possibly, if they can read the data and possibly, if they have a connect scientific, generate they have a connect scientific, generate they have a connect scientific, generate their own chart from that data in a way their own chart from that data in a way their own chart from that data in a way that works for them. So, that would be that works for them. So, that would be that works for them. So, that would be what I would say. I I've forgotten the what I would say. I I've forgotten the what I would say. I I've forgotten the first first first >> the um how does one's brain click? Like, >> the um how does one's brain click? Like, >> the um how does one's brain click? Like, I feel like when I when I did ASL, we I feel like when I when I did ASL, we I feel like when I when I did ASL, we taught our kids baby sign language. So, taught our kids baby sign language. So, taught our kids baby sign language. So, when they're when the children can't when they're when the children can't when they're when the children can't speak for the first two or three years speak for the first two or three years speak for the first two or three years of their life, you can communicate with of their life, you can communicate with of their life, you can communicate with them quite effectively with sign them quite effectively with sign them quite effectively with sign language. And when you interact with a language. And when you interact with a language. And when you interact with a deaf customer, I when I was doing, you deaf customer, I when I was doing, you deaf customer, I when I was doing, you know, working in a way in a restaurant, know, working in a way in a restaurant, know, working in a way in a restaurant, I found that to be to be very helpful. I I found that to be to be very helpful. I I found that to be to be very helpful. I could see less useful reasons for me to could see less useful reasons for me to could see less useful reasons for me to know Braille, but you as a sighted know Braille, but you as a sighted know Braille, but you as a sighted person being able to know Braille, I'm person being able to know Braille, I'm person being able to know Braille, I'm wondering how that kind of clicked, if wondering how that kind of clicked, if wondering how that kind of clicked, if it activated the foreign language part it activated the foreign language part it activated the foreign language part of your brain or what happened. of your brain or what happened. of your brain or what happened. >> Yeah. It doesn't because Braille is >> Yeah. It doesn't because Braille is >> Yeah. It doesn't because Braille is everywhere around the world everywhere around the world everywhere around the world is in that language. So, it's a it's a is in that language. So, it's a it's a is in that language. So, it's a it's a different code for the language. The different code for the language. The different code for the language. The simplest way of saying it is there's a simplest way of saying it is there's a simplest way of saying it is there's a different alphabet for the same different alphabet for the same different alphabet for the same language. It's not literally just a language. It's not literally just a language. It's not literally just a different alphabet because there are different alphabet because there are different alphabet because there are contractions in English Braille, but in contractions in English Braille, but in contractions in English Braille, but in many countries there are no many countries there are no many countries there are no contractions. So, contractions things contractions. So, contractions things contractions. So, contractions things like the word the is a single character.

like the word the is a single character. like the word the is a single character. So, in many languages, it really is just So, in many languages, it really is just So, in many languages, it really is just a different take on the alphabet. So, a different take on the alphabet. So, a different take on the alphabet. So, that you don't necessarily get that that you don't necessarily get that that you don't necessarily get that click, if you like. But when it comes to click, if you like. But when it comes to click, if you like. But when it comes to learning the contractions or that sense learning the contractions or that sense learning the contractions or that sense of being able to feel of being able to feel of being able to feel >> of information flowing into your fingers >> of information flowing into your fingers >> of information flowing into your fingers rather than into your eyes. rather than into your eyes. rather than into your eyes. >> fluency feel, yeah. >> fluency feel, yeah. >> fluency feel, yeah. Right. I have I have passed the first Right. I have I have passed the first Right. I have I have passed the first one sometimes and have since regressed. one sometimes and have since regressed. one sometimes and have since regressed. Um Um Um but when you're picking up the the but when you're picking up the the but when you're picking up the the contractions, that is essentially the contractions, that is essentially the contractions, that is essentially the same as picking up shorthand in in in same as picking up shorthand in in in same as picking up shorthand in in in that kind of sense of you if you can um that kind of sense of you if you can um that kind of sense of you if you can um imagine that or or in a sense like imagine that or or in a sense like imagine that or or in a sense like learning a programming language which is learning a programming language which is learning a programming language which is not the same as learning French for not the same as learning French for not the same as learning French for example, but it it it's it's not a example, but it it it's it's not a example, but it it it's it's not a million miles away. I've never million miles away. I've never million miles away. I've never experienced of course becoming fluent in experienced of course becoming fluent in experienced of course becoming fluent in touch reading. touch reading. touch reading. It does get harder the older you are and It does get harder the older you are and It does get harder the older you are and at some point after your mid-20s at some point after your mid-20s at some point after your mid-20s it takes more work and if you're sighted it takes more work and if you're sighted it takes more work and if you're sighted you have to be very dedicated to to you have to be very dedicated to to you have to be very dedicated to to develop to the point where you're develop to the point where you're develop to the point where you're fluent, but but you can it can be fluent, but but you can it can be fluent, but but you can it can be observed that observed that observed that there is a point at which someone reads there is a point at which someone reads there is a point at which someone reads at the same speed in Braille at the same speed in Braille at the same speed in Braille as they are reading as a sighted person as they are reading as a sighted person as they are reading as a sighted person reads visually and if you observe that reads visually and if you observe that reads visually and if you observe that it's clear they are not feeling they are it's clear they are not feeling they are it's clear they are not feeling they are not not not consciously checking the dots.

consciously checking the dots. consciously checking the dots. The dots are just happening and they The dots are just happening and they The dots are just happening and they might scoop the hand back and forth and might scoop the hand back and forth and might scoop the hand back and forth and they might use a different So that is they might use a different So that is they might use a different So that is clearly a the click has happened if you clearly a the click has happened if you clearly a the click has happened if you like and the click I would like and the click I would like and the click I would it's not really my place to say, but I it's not really my place to say, but I it's not really my place to say, but I think you would say therefore say that think you would say therefore say that think you would say therefore say that it is in the it is in the sensation it is in the it is in the sensation it is in the it is in the sensation rather than in the code itself which is rather than in the code itself which is rather than in the code itself which is not strictly speaking a language. not strictly speaking a language. not strictly speaking a language. >> Yeah, I think when the when the Canute >> Yeah, I think when the when the Canute >> Yeah, I think when the when the Canute scientific in Braille disappears and scientific in Braille disappears and scientific in Braille disappears and it's simply the information flows that's it's simply the information flows that's it's simply the information flows that's when the when the when the blind person really is unlocked and blind person really is unlocked and blind person really is unlocked and unleashed and able to do everything that unleashed and able to do everything that unleashed and able to do everything that they want to do. Yeah. So folks can they want to do. Yeah. So folks can they want to do. Yeah. So folks can learn more at bristolbraille.org. We'll learn more at bristolbraille.org. We'll learn more at bristolbraille.org. We'll include links in the show notes. The include links in the show notes. The include links in the show notes. The website is the primary place for folks website is the primary place for folks website is the primary place for folks to interact. If someone wants to partner to interact. If someone wants to partner to interact. If someone wants to partner with you, if they want to spend time with you, if they want to spend time with you, if they want to spend time with you, if they want to work with you with you, if they want to work with you with you, if they want to work with you on a maker space or something like that, on a maker space or something like that, on a maker space or something like that, they can just reach out from the they can just reach out from the they can just reach out from the website. website. website. >> Yeah, and we've got we've we've got US, >> Yeah, and we've got we've we've got US, >> Yeah, and we've got we've we've got US, UK and WhatsApp UK and WhatsApp UK and WhatsApp for getting in contact with us or just for getting in contact with us or just for getting in contact with us or just email us, but you can also if you check email us, but you can also if you check email us, but you can also if you check check our diary because if we happen if check our diary because if we happen if check our diary because if we happen if we happen to be in a city near you, you we happen to be in a city near you, you we happen to be in a city near you, you might as well pop over.

might as well pop over. might as well pop over. >> Yeah, absolutely and then they can go >> Yeah, absolutely and then they can go >> Yeah, absolutely and then they can go and see the Canute scientific and see the Canute scientific and see the Canute scientific pre-launch. pre-launch. pre-launch. There's an initial limited batch run There's an initial limited batch run There's an initial limited batch run happening and then you can check out the happening and then you can check out the happening and then you can check out the shop and contact them. Thank you so much shop and contact them. Thank you so much shop and contact them. Thank you so much Ed Rogers for chatting with me today. Ed Rogers for chatting with me today. Ed Rogers for chatting with me today. >> Thank you. It's been a pleasure. >> Thank you. It's been a pleasure. >> Thank you. It's been a pleasure. >> This has been another episode of >> This has been another episode of >> This has been another episode of Hanselminutes and we'll see you again Hanselminutes and we'll see you again Hanselminutes and we'll see you again next week.