Fine tuning Products with Stanza System's Stacie Frederick

hey friends and digital marketers this hey friends and digital marketers this one's for you I've got 30 seconds to one's for you I've got 30 seconds to one's for you I've got 30 seconds to tell you about Wix Studio the web tell you about Wix Studio the web tell you about Wix Studio the web platform for agencies and Enterprises so platform for agencies and Enterprises so platform for agencies and Enterprises so here are a few things you can do in 30 here are a few things you can do in 30 here are a few things you can do in 30 seconds or less when you manage projects seconds or less when you manage projects seconds or less when you manage projects on Wix Studio you can work in sync with on Wix Studio you can work in sync with on Wix Studio you can work in sync with your team on one canvas you can reuse your team on one canvas you can reuse your team on one canvas you can reuse templates widgets and sections across templates widgets and sections across templates widgets and sections across sites you can create a client kit for sites you can create a client kit for sites you can create a client kit for seamless handovers and leverage seamless handovers and leverage seamless handovers and leverage best-in-class SEO defaults across all best-in-class SEO defaults across all best-in-class SEO defaults across all your Wix sites time's up but the list your Wix sites time's up but the list your Wix sites time's up but the list keeps going step into Wick's Studio to keeps going step into Wick's Studio to keeps going step into Wick's Studio to see see see [Music] [Music] [Music] more hi I'm Scott Hanselman this is more hi I'm Scott Hanselman this is more hi I'm Scott Hanselman this is another episode of Hansel minutes today another episode of Hansel minutes today another episode of Hansel minutes today I'm chatting with Stacy Frederick she's I'm chatting with Stacy Frederick she's I'm chatting with Stacy Frederick she's a chief product officer at stanza a chief product officer at stanza a chief product officer at stanza systems how are you doing well how are systems how are you doing well how are systems how are you doing well how are you Scott I am very well I am always you Scott I am very well I am always you Scott I am very well I am always excited to talk to people with a ton of excited to talk to people with a ton of excited to talk to people with a ton of experience you have been a CTO you have experience you have been a CTO you have experience you have been a CTO you have been an SVP of software engineering been an SVP of software engineering been an SVP of software engineering you've been a VP you worked on Alexa you you've been a VP you worked on Alexa you you've been a VP you worked on Alexa you have done a ton of stuff and you have a have done a ton of stuff and you have a have done a ton of stuff and you have a master's in computer science I noticed master's in computer science I noticed master's in computer science I noticed though that you are the chief product though that you are the chief product though that you are the chief product officer do you get to choose what comes officer do you get to choose what comes officer do you get to choose what comes between the C and the O did you decide between the C and the O did you decide between the C and the O did you decide to be the CPO and not the CTO yeah to be the CPO and not the CTO yeah to be the CPO and not the CTO yeah actually that was pretty explicit in actually that was pretty explicit in actually that was pretty explicit in this case the founders were already CTO this case the founders were already CTO this case the founders were already CTO had filled a position and uh I didn't had filled a position and uh I didn't had filled a position and uh I didn't feel like because stanza is very deeply

feel like because stanza is very deeply feel like because stanza is very deeply rooted in s that it was the right I rooted in s that it was the right I rooted in s that it was the right I guess the right fit for me um but what's guess the right fit for me um but what's guess the right fit for me um but what's interesting is that the products we're interesting is that the products we're interesting is that the products we're building are really for um the rest of building are really for um the rest of building are really for um the rest of development and it's kind of like how do development and it's kind of like how do development and it's kind of like how do you bring that deep SRE knowledge to the you bring that deep SRE knowledge to the you bring that deep SRE knowledge to the rest of your developers and so I sit rest of your developers and so I sit rest of your developers and so I sit very much at the basically the customer very much at the basically the customer very much at the basically the customer as a VP avenge or even a CTO um and it's as a VP avenge or even a CTO um and it's as a VP avenge or even a CTO um and it's kind of like how do we get into the head kind of like how do we get into the head kind of like how do we get into the head of the customer and that perspective of of the customer and that perspective of of the customer and that perspective of bringing reliability engineering to the bringing reliability engineering to the bringing reliability engineering to the rest of your development team and really rest of your development team and really rest of your development team and really to the rest of the to the rest of the to the rest of the sdlc uh on the show here we love to sdlc uh on the show here we love to sdlc uh on the show here we love to expand our acronyms SRE is site expand our acronyms SRE is site expand our acronyms SRE is site reliability engineering and sdlc is the reliability engineering and sdlc is the reliability engineering and sdlc is the software development life cycle so is it software development life cycle so is it software development life cycle so is it important for you as the chief product important for you as the chief product important for you as the chief product officer at a site reliability company to officer at a site reliability company to officer at a site reliability company to have deep engineering experience because have deep engineering experience because have deep engineering experience because sometimes Chief product officers are sometimes Chief product officers are sometimes Chief product officers are just like Chief empath but they may not just like Chief empath but they may not just like Chief empath but they may not have expertise in the space you have have expertise in the space you have have expertise in the space you have both yeah it's uh that that's a great both yeah it's uh that that's a great both yeah it's uh that that's a great question I will say in this case I will question I will say in this case I will question I will say in this case I will say the the technical background and the say the the technical background and the say the the technical background and the engineering experience uh actually engineering experience uh actually engineering experience uh actually really help a lot because the products really help a lot because the products really help a lot because the products that we've been working on have been that we've been working on have been that we've been working on have been very technical so far um we started off very technical so far um we started off very technical so far um we started off with a rate limiting product which is with a rate limiting product which is with a rate limiting product which is very deep in infrastructure and so that very deep in infrastructure and so that very deep in infrastructure and so that when you start talking about um features when you start talking about um features when you start talking about um features and uh who's going to use it how would and uh who's going to use it how would and uh who's going to use it how would they use it uh what are the different

they use it uh what are the different they use it uh what are the different almost like environments where that almost like environments where that almost like environments where that product is going to be used is is deep product is going to be used is is deep product is going to be used is is deep into the developer experience so into the developer experience so into the developer experience so understanding that it just fast forwards understanding that it just fast forwards understanding that it just fast forwards kind of your hearing of what customers kind of your hearing of what customers kind of your hearing of what customers are telling you as well as how you then are telling you as well as how you then are telling you as well as how you then look at their problems and then propose look at their problems and then propose look at their problems and then propose Solutions so it it does help a lot do Solutions so it it does help a lot do Solutions so it it does help a lot do you think that that is a would be a you think that that is a would be a you think that that is a would be a weakness then if one were a chief weakness then if one were a chief weakness then if one were a chief product officer and had no experience in product officer and had no experience in product officer and had no experience in the space or is that just going to slow the space or is that just going to slow the space or is that just going to slow them down I think it could be uh in the them down I think it could be uh in the them down I think it could be uh in the best case it's a Slowdown if you have best case it's a Slowdown if you have best case it's a Slowdown if you have enough uh technical folks around you enough uh technical folks around you enough uh technical folks around you that can help you to do that translation that can help you to do that translation that can help you to do that translation but more likely it's going to be a but more likely it's going to be a but more likely it's going to be a hindrance because there is kind of that hindrance because there is kind of that hindrance because there is kind of that translation that needs to happen and translation that needs to happen and translation that needs to happen and what I found is in talking with what I found is in talking with what I found is in talking with perspective stanza customers is that it perspective stanza customers is that it perspective stanza customers is that it really helps actually to have an really helps actually to have an really helps actually to have an Insider's view of what engineering Insider's view of what engineering Insider's view of what engineering organizations are like because there's a organizations are like because there's a organizations are like because there's a lot of um when someone tells you lot of um when someone tells you lot of um when someone tells you something about either their pain points something about either their pain points something about either their pain points or even their objectives for a team it or even their objectives for a team it or even their objectives for a team it helps to understand like oh that's the helps to understand like oh that's the helps to understand like oh that's the product side talking or no that's the product side talking or no that's the product side talking or no that's the platform engineering team or no this platform engineering team or no this platform engineering team or no this this SRE folks they're really just in this SRE folks they're really just in this SRE folks they're really just in operations and they don't they're not as operations and they don't they're not as operations and they don't they're not as closely aligned with business objectives closely aligned with business objectives closely aligned with business objectives and so to have that added context of and so to have that added context of and so to have that added context of understanding and being able to ask that understanding and being able to ask that understanding and being able to ask that question really helps a lot yeah at the question really helps a lot yeah at the question really helps a lot yeah at the beginning at the top of the show you me beginning at the top of the show you me beginning at the top of the show you me mentioned the software development life mentioned the software development life mentioned the software development life cycle and I was talking with a friend cycle and I was talking with a friend cycle and I was talking with a friend earlier who is working on what they call earlier who is working on what they call earlier who is working on what they call intelligent applications applications

intelligent applications applications intelligent applications applications that have ai sprinkled in but they said that have ai sprinkled in but they said that have ai sprinkled in but they said we are in the middle of a movement from we are in the middle of a movement from we are in the middle of a movement from Modern apps to intelligent apps and I Modern apps to intelligent apps and I Modern apps to intelligent apps and I said describe to me what a modern app is said describe to me what a modern app is said describe to me what a modern app is and they said that means a mature app and they said that means a mature app and they said that means a mature app that has mature software development that has mature software development that has mature software development life cycle behind it the days of life cycle behind it the days of life cycle behind it the days of deploying from Stacy's laptop are over deploying from Stacy's laptop are over deploying from Stacy's laptop are over yep and before you say hello world you yep and before you say hello world you yep and before you say hello world you have a proper life cycle around it do have a proper life cycle around it do have a proper life cycle around it do you think that's a fair a fair statement you think that's a fair a fair statement you think that's a fair a fair statement uh in terms of how do they describe it uh in terms of how do they describe it uh in terms of how do they describe it again mature like a mature software again mature like a mature software again mature like a mature software development life cycle with a cicd like development life cycle with a cicd like development life cycle with a cicd like there's still companies that aren't there's still companies that aren't there's still companies that aren't doing oh for sure continuous deployment doing oh for sure continuous deployment doing oh for sure continuous deployment right now and uh I'm curious if you're right now and uh I'm curious if you're right now and uh I'm curious if you're trying to sell to uh you know an SRE trying to sell to uh you know an SRE trying to sell to uh you know an SRE product or a series of products to product or a series of products to product or a series of products to people and they don't even know what SRE people and they don't even know what SRE people and they don't even know what SRE is because their maturity level is less is because their maturity level is less is because their maturity level is less how do you get past that yeah absolutely how do you get past that yeah absolutely how do you get past that yeah absolutely there's a spectrum that every team sits there's a spectrum that every team sits there's a spectrum that every team sits on and and it's actually not even just on and and it's actually not even just on and and it's actually not even just the team sometimes it's the product and the team sometimes it's the product and the team sometimes it's the product and sometimes it's the sometimes it's the sometimes it's the business and what's interesting is business and what's interesting is business and what's interesting is gauging um the sophistication across gauging um the sophistication across gauging um the sophistication across those three things because hopefully if those three things because hopefully if those three things because hopefully if you're either leading the team in the you're either leading the team in the you're either leading the team in the team you're finding the right fit across team you're finding the right fit across team you're finding the right fit across all three of those for example all three of those for example all three of those for example cicd like everyone thinks that oh that's cicd like everyone thinks that oh that's cicd like everyone thinks that oh that's the thing we need to achieve that is the the thing we need to achieve that is the the thing we need to achieve that is the gold standard um however depending on gold standard um however depending on gold standard um however depending on where your business or product is you where your business or product is you where your business or product is you may not be able to reach that for the may not be able to reach that for the may not be able to reach that for the right reasons in your business I right reasons in your business I right reasons in your business I actually had a team that was trying to actually had a team that was trying to actually had a team that was trying to deliver releases faster but they didn't

deliver releases faster but they didn't deliver releases faster but they didn't really think about well our testing really think about well our testing really think about well our testing burden is so high because it's so manual burden is so high because it's so manual burden is so high because it's so manual this releasing more often is actually this releasing more often is actually this releasing more often is actually killing us and so it's finding the right killing us and so it's finding the right killing us and so it's finding the right fit right for where you're at um it's fit right for where you're at um it's fit right for where you're at um it's not just going kind of blindly after a not just going kind of blindly after a not just going kind of blindly after a well everyone's doing it and this is well everyone's doing it and this is well everyone's doing it and this is supposed to be the right thing to do um supposed to be the right thing to do um supposed to be the right thing to do um but it's like you have to you have to but it's like you have to you have to but it's like you have to you have to evolve yourself in the right ways aren't evolve yourself in the right ways aren't evolve yourself in the right ways aren't there absolutes though like are we there absolutes though like are we there absolutes though like are we getting to a place like there's there's getting to a place like there's there's getting to a place like there's there's standards I know that the uh the analogy standards I know that the uh the analogy standards I know that the uh the analogy of architecture of building a house is of architecture of building a house is of architecture of building a house is like a pretty understood thing we know like a pretty understood thing we know like a pretty understood thing we know how to build houses but we're still how to build houses but we're still how to build houses but we're still inventing how to make software it feels inventing how to make software it feels inventing how to make software it feels like in the last five or 10 year maybe like in the last five or 10 year maybe like in the last five or 10 year maybe five years we really understand how to five years we really understand how to five years we really understand how to build software like it's becoming so build software like it's becoming so build software like it's becoming so much more standardized I I would be much more standardized I I would be much more standardized I I would be surprised if an organization said that surprised if an organization said that surprised if an organization said that they couldn't do it that way for some they couldn't do it that way for some they couldn't do it that way for some reason unless was regulatory yeah I reason unless was regulatory yeah I reason unless was regulatory yeah I would say there are still areas of would say there are still areas of would say there are still areas of software where we one also like if software where we one also like if software where we one also like if you're in the early phases of a product you're in the early phases of a product you're in the early phases of a product sometimes it doesn't pay cost-wise to sometimes it doesn't pay cost-wise to sometimes it doesn't pay cost-wise to actually automate all your testing uh in actually automate all your testing uh in actually automate all your testing uh in which case you know is that is cic our which case you know is that is cic our which case you know is that is cic our most important thing right now maybe most important thing right now maybe most important thing right now maybe it's not so it is a finding that right it's not so it is a finding that right it's not so it is a finding that right fit for where you're at both in terms of fit for where you're at both in terms of fit for where you're at both in terms of your products and the maturity of them your products and the maturity of them your products and the maturity of them so definitely if you are dealing with so definitely if you are dealing with so definitely if you are dealing with mature products your business is very mature products your business is very mature products your business is very well understood absolutely makes sense well understood absolutely makes sense well understood absolutely makes sense but if you're still trying to figure out but if you're still trying to figure out but if you're still trying to figure out the business and so therefore your the business and so therefore your the business and so therefore your software is still uh very much in flux

software is still uh very much in flux software is still uh very much in flux it may not make sense to automate it may not make sense to automate it may not make sense to automate everything so it is there is a decision everything so it is there is a decision everything so it is there is a decision Point there's a balance that you need to Point there's a balance that you need to Point there's a balance that you need to reach on that you know that's that's a reach on that you know that's that's a reach on that you know that's that's a very good challenging you're challenging very good challenging you're challenging very good challenging you're challenging my perception of how you know like my perception of how you know like my perception of how you know like there's always this sense of like there's always this sense of like there's always this sense of like absolutes and I'm like the engineer is absolutes and I'm like the engineer is absolutes and I'm like the engineer is like the engineer in me is like well if like the engineer in me is like well if like the engineer in me is like well if you done it twice it should be automated you done it twice it should be automated you done it twice it should be automated and it's like well you know but if and it's like well you know but if and it's like well you know but if you're only doing it twice a month it you're only doing it twice a month it you're only doing it twice a month it doesn't need to be automated so that doesn't need to be automated so that doesn't need to be automated so that that's important check yeah and that's that's important check yeah and that's that's important check yeah and that's one of the things where I would say one of the things where I would say one of the things where I would say folks who have gone into early stage folks who have gone into early stage folks who have gone into early stage startups like all of a sudden your startups like all of a sudden your startups like all of a sudden your assumptions have to be checked because assumptions have to be checked because assumptions have to be checked because the the goals are very different in the the goals are very different in the the goals are very different in those early days versus okay now we those early days versus okay now we those early days versus okay now we actually do have we understand our actually do have we understand our actually do have we understand our business well enough we know where we business well enough we know where we business well enough we know where we need to invest in our software right to need to invest in our software right to need to invest in our software right to make us efficient and to build the right make us efficient and to build the right make us efficient and to build the right features on top of and growth versus we features on top of and growth versus we features on top of and growth versus we don't yet know yet don't yet know yet don't yet know yet mhm when you are trying to get that prod mhm when you are trying to get that prod mhm when you are trying to get that prod they call it product Market fit they call it product Market fit they call it product Market fit ultimately it feels to me like product L ultimately it feels to me like product L ultimately it feels to me like product L growth which is one of these terms that growth which is one of these terms that growth which is one of these terms that everyone's using right now which really everyone's using right now which really everyone's using right now which really just means make the product so just means make the product so just means make the product so delightful that people will tell their delightful that people will tell their delightful that people will tell their friends about it like whole books have friends about it like whole books have friends about it like whole books have been written about this and mbas get been written about this and mbas get been written about this and mbas get mbas to say product L growth it just mbas to say product L growth it just mbas to say product L growth it just make make it not suck make it so amazing make make it not suck make it so amazing make make it not suck make it so amazing that if you're sitting next to someone that if you're sitting next to someone that if you're sitting next to someone on an airplane they're going to be like on an airplane they're going to be like on an airplane they're going to be like oh my God have you heard about St that's oh my God have you heard about St that's oh my God have you heard about St that's so good right but ultimately you want so good right but ultimately you want so good right but ultimately you want the purchasing experience for them to be the purchasing experience for them to be the purchasing experience for them to be just like oh we have to have this we just like oh we have to have this we just like oh we have to have this we didn't even know we had this problem are

didn't even know we had this problem are didn't even know we had this problem are you do you feel like you have an answer you do you feel like you have an answer you do you feel like you have an answer and you call them and you do those call and you call them and you do those call and you call them and you do those call down those interviews and it's like we down those interviews and it's like we down those interviews and it's like we have the answer for you and it's the have the answer for you and it's the have the answer for you and it's the stanza you know products or are you stanza you know products or are you stanza you know products or are you still probing for problems that they still probing for problems that they still probing for problems that they have you don't know about yeah we're have you don't know about yeah we're have you don't know about yeah we're still very much in the probing as well still very much in the probing as well still very much in the probing as well as almost like validating and verifying as almost like validating and verifying as almost like validating and verifying it's it's similar to when you um try to it's it's similar to when you um try to it's it's similar to when you um try to ask a question in multiple ways just to ask a question in multiple ways just to ask a question in multiple ways just to make sure that the signal you're getting make sure that the signal you're getting make sure that the signal you're getting is it makes sense right and it's not is it makes sense right and it's not is it makes sense right and it's not it's not just someone's maybe opinion or it's not just someone's maybe opinion or it's not just someone's maybe opinion or thought at the time but it really is uh thought at the time but it really is uh thought at the time but it really is uh it it's a good solid signal right it it's a good solid signal right it it's a good solid signal right there's some ground there yeah there's a there's some ground there yeah there's a there's some ground there yeah there's a a wonderful product uh story that they a wonderful product uh story that they a wonderful product uh story that they always teach us in school which is an always teach us in school which is an always teach us in school which is an angry person comes into the cell phone angry person comes into the cell phone angry person comes into the cell phone store yelling about how they can't hear store yelling about how they can't hear store yelling about how they can't hear anything and they want a big antenna and anything and they want a big antenna and anything and they want a big antenna and they say you I'm not leaving here until they say you I'm not leaving here until they say you I'm not leaving here until you put a giant antenna on my on my you put a giant antenna on my on my you put a giant antenna on my on my phone and maybe they have an iPhone you phone and maybe they have an iPhone you phone and maybe they have an iPhone you imagine a big CB whip antenna and when imagine a big CB whip antenna and when imagine a big CB whip antenna and when they get them to calm down they realize they get them to calm down they realize they get them to calm down they realize the issue is their their signal and the the issue is their their signal and the the issue is their their signal and the clarity of the calls and not so they clarity of the calls and not so they clarity of the calls and not so they came in with a solution how often do came in with a solution how often do came in with a solution how often do customers come at you with a solution customers come at you with a solution customers come at you with a solution but you know that's not what they really but you know that's not what they really but you know that's not what they really want they just have a problem that they want they just have a problem that they want they just have a problem that they don't have a solution for yeah actually don't have a solution for yeah actually don't have a solution for yeah actually um it's not uncommon especially for um um it's not uncommon especially for um um it's not uncommon especially for um teams and folks that are if they're teams and folks that are if they're teams and folks that are if they're sitting in a problem and they are right sitting in a problem and they are right sitting in a problem and they are right as engineering teams they're left to as engineering teams they're left to as engineering teams they're left to solve solve solve them uh and so they're very much in

them uh and so they're very much in them uh and so they're very much in solution space of how would we address solution space of how would we address solution space of how would we address this and so often times that's where this and so often times that's where this and so often times that's where they're coming into the conversation is they're coming into the conversation is they're coming into the conversation is with that I'm looking for a solution I'm with that I'm looking for a solution I'm with that I'm looking for a solution I'm very fixed on it's got to be this this very fixed on it's got to be this this very fixed on it's got to be this this or this and so part of that challenge or this and so part of that challenge or this and so part of that challenge then is to to kind of open up the then is to to kind of open up the then is to to kind of open up the conversation take the step back and conversation take the step back and conversation take the step back and really get them to talk about okay if really get them to talk about okay if really get them to talk about okay if this is your problem or this is the this is your problem or this is the this is your problem or this is the solution you think let's back up into solution you think let's back up into solution you think let's back up into the problem that you're trying to solve the problem that you're trying to solve the problem that you're trying to solve and then are there what's the full full and then are there what's the full full and then are there what's the full full picture of that problem to kind of picture of that problem to kind of picture of that problem to kind of understand why are you going down this understand why are you going down this understand why are you going down this path into this only this solution step path into this only this solution step path into this only this solution step right and that's where you get into right and that's where you get into right and that's where you get into psychology and empathy because it's like psychology and empathy because it's like psychology and empathy because it's like I know that you think you want this I know that you think you want this I know that you think you want this rather than telling them you're wrong rather than telling them you're wrong rather than telling them you're wrong you say well help me understand why how you say well help me understand why how you say well help me understand why how did you get there why do you feel that did you get there why do you feel that did you get there why do you feel that that's what you want abely and that's that's what you want abely and that's that's what you want abely and that's where a lot of um just curiosity comes where a lot of um just curiosity comes where a lot of um just curiosity comes in and it's kind of like if you start to in and it's kind of like if you start to in and it's kind of like if you start to talk to someone and like you don't you talk to someone and like you don't you talk to someone and like you don't you haven't found that place where you can haven't found that place where you can haven't found that place where you can ask a bunch of questions and just have ask a bunch of questions and just have ask a bunch of questions and just have that conversation with folks is where that conversation with folks is where that conversation with folks is where you're like okay that's a little bit of you're like okay that's a little bit of you're like okay that's a little bit of a dead end I need to go a different a dead end I need to go a different a dead end I need to go a different route to kind of open up get back to the route to kind of open up get back to the route to kind of open up get back to the to like kind of the background or the to like kind of the background or the to like kind of the background or the underlying reason for the the thing underlying reason for the the thing underlying reason for the the thing they're trying to solve for does it I they're trying to solve for does it I they're trying to solve for does it I just had this image in my mind of like just had this image in my mind of like just had this image in my mind of like Benjamin Cumberbatch like trying to Benjamin Cumberbatch like trying to Benjamin Cumberbatch like trying to interview someone to figure out the interview someone to figure out the interview someone to figure out the mystery you know and they they cracked mystery you know and they they cracked mystery you know and they they cracked it like do you ever feel like you have a it like do you ever feel like you have a it like do you ever feel like you have a moment when you're talking to a customer

moment when you're talking to a customer moment when you're talking to a customer and then you you finally figured out the and then you you finally figured out the and then you you finally figured out the murder mystery and you've cracked it murder mystery and you've cracked it murder mystery and you've cracked it because ah now I understand why you because ah now I understand why you because ah now I understand why you think that and that's where you got think that and that's where you got think that and that's where you got there and now I know what we can build there and now I know what we can build there and now I know what we can build for you um there's been a couple times for you um there's been a couple times for you um there's been a couple times with that but sometimes it's like after with that but sometimes it's like after with that but sometimes it's like after the call so after we have a a debrief on the call so after we have a a debrief on the call so after we have a a debrief on they said this but like they said they they said this but like they said they they said this but like they said they needed this but then they didn't accept needed this but then they didn't accept needed this but then they didn't accept this type of approach or it was this this type of approach or it was this this type of approach or it was this like sometimes there's this weird kind like sometimes there's this weird kind like sometimes there's this weird kind of blockage in a conversation and so of blockage in a conversation and so of blockage in a conversation and so then of time you come on a call and then of time you come on a call and then of time you come on a call and you're kind of like that was weird like you're kind of like that was weird like you're kind of like that was weird like they have definitely have this problem they have definitely have this problem they have definitely have this problem but yet weren't kind of open to a like but yet weren't kind of open to a like but yet weren't kind of open to a like different types of solutions and then different types of solutions and then different types of solutions and then sometimes as we talk about it among sometimes as we talk about it among sometimes as we talk about it among ourselves it's kind of like well okay if ourselves it's kind of like well okay if ourselves it's kind of like well okay if we understand where this person sits in we understand where this person sits in we understand where this person sits in an org in terms of what they can can't an org in terms of what they can can't an org in terms of what they can can't do and what's available to them do and what's available to them do and what's available to them sometimes that's how people get wedged sometimes that's how people get wedged sometimes that's how people get wedged into a certain solution for example if into a certain solution for example if into a certain solution for example if you're for example in a platform team you're for example in a platform team you're for example in a platform team and you are left to build all the all and you are left to build all the all and you are left to build all the all the the the solutions sometimes you are only looking solutions sometimes you are only looking solutions sometimes you are only looking at open source like I haven't been given at open source like I haven't been given at open source like I haven't been given the freedom to look at vendor Solutions the freedom to look at vendor Solutions the freedom to look at vendor Solutions or I've got to find a way to make sure or I've got to find a way to make sure or I've got to find a way to make sure all those developers they're going to all those developers they're going to all those developers they're going to actually use the thing how do I make get actually use the thing how do I make get actually use the thing how do I make get appealing to them and so people kind of appealing to them and so people kind of appealing to them and so people kind of narrow down their their scope and so narrow down their their scope and so narrow down their their scope and so that's where it's interesting to that's where it's interesting to that's where it's interesting to understand okay so how many developers understand okay so how many developers understand okay so how many developers are you dealing with what is your are you dealing with what is your are you dealing with what is your biggest challenge is there adoption like biggest challenge is there adoption like biggest challenge is there adoption like how do you deal with adoption is there

how do you deal with adoption is there how do you deal with adoption is there training that you provide to your training that you provide to your training that you provide to your developers or you know if you're doing developers or you know if you're doing developers or you know if you're doing an open source you're trying to solve it an open source you're trying to solve it an open source you're trying to solve it yourself have you looked at other things yourself have you looked at other things yourself have you looked at other things would that be interesting and you're would that be interesting and you're would that be interesting and you're challenging their assumptions in in in challenging their assumptions in in in challenging their assumptions in in in all of those questions yeah it's just all of those questions yeah it's just all of those questions yeah it's just kind asking yeah asking the opening the kind asking yeah asking the opening the kind asking yeah asking the opening the broadening questions have have you had broadening questions have have you had broadening questions have have you had times when either after the the meeting times when either after the the meeting times when either after the the meeting where that feedback like caused you to where that feedback like caused you to where that feedback like caused you to totally change or pivot or go wow yeah totally change or pivot or go wow yeah totally change or pivot or go wow yeah this is our strategy is wrong we've now this is our strategy is wrong we've now this is our strategy is wrong we've now heard it from 10 people we've now heard heard it from 10 people we've now heard heard it from 10 people we've now heard it from 20 people we should go in this it from 20 people we should go in this it from 20 people we should go in this direction uh we definitely uh have had direction uh we definitely uh have had direction uh we definitely uh have had that and we're actually working in that that and we're actually working in that that and we're actually working in that kind of space right now where we went kind of space right now where we went kind of space right now where we went through and had our first kind of through and had our first kind of through and had our first kind of product that we were launching with product that we were launching with product that we were launching with thought was definitely a better offering thought was definitely a better offering thought was definitely a better offering than what was out there a better rate than what was out there a better rate than what was out there a better rate limiting solution to talk about limiting solution to talk about limiting solution to talk about specifically and what we were specifically and what we were specifically and what we were experiencing was lots of problem experiencing was lots of problem experiencing was lots of problem validation so lots of uses for that validation so lots of uses for that validation so lots of uses for that product but not hearing a lot of urgency product but not hearing a lot of urgency product but not hearing a lot of urgency around it or people really saying that around it or people really saying that around it or people really saying that is going to really help me to meet this is going to really help me to meet this is going to really help me to meet this like business objectives right that like business objectives right that like business objectives right that urgency which is really key nowadays urgency which is really key nowadays urgency which is really key nowadays right in the in the where the market is right in the in the where the market is right in the in the where the market is and everyone's just very focused on cost and everyone's just very focused on cost and everyone's just very focused on cost lost and not adding things and so where lost and not adding things and so where lost and not adding things and so where we got to was what we're really seeing a we got to was what we're really seeing a we got to was what we're really seeing a lot of is also people not understanding lot of is also people not understanding lot of is also people not understanding what was interesting is rate living is what was interesting is rate living is what was interesting is rate living is really like a if you think about it a really like a if you think about it a really like a if you think about it a very kind of almost generic engineering very kind of almost generic engineering very kind of almost generic engineering technique and so it's kind of like I I

technique and so it's kind of like I I technique and so it's kind of like I I got to a point I talked about to enough got to a point I talked about to enough got to a point I talked about to enough people was like I know you've got the people was like I know you've got the people was like I know you've got the problem it's just a matter of where this problem it's just a matter of where this problem it's just a matter of where this sits in your systems and how important sits in your systems and how important sits in your systems and how important it is to you like whether that problem it is to you like whether that problem it is to you like whether that problem is actually visible to you and so it was is actually visible to you and so it was is actually visible to you and so it was a matter of the recognition of that a matter of the recognition of that a matter of the recognition of that problem and how they're dealing with the problem and how they're dealing with the problem and how they're dealing with the the problems they are having with their the problems they are having with their the problems they are having with their systems and the ways the business is systems and the ways the business is systems and the ways the business is pushing them to make different like the pushing them to make different like the pushing them to make different like the different requirements within their different requirements within their different requirements within their system like availability a lot of sites system like availability a lot of sites system like availability a lot of sites of so we got to was okay how do we how of so we got to was okay how do we how of so we got to was okay how do we how do we use what people already have in do we use what people already have in do we use what people already have in order to give them more more of this order to give them more more of this order to give them more more of this kind of better understanding of their kind of better understanding of their kind of better understanding of their systems and how to improve them and so systems and how to improve them and so systems and how to improve them and so we actually shifted we thought that our we actually shifted we thought that our we actually shifted we thought that our first product would actually allow us to first product would actually allow us to first product would actually allow us to have access to data that would then get have access to data that would then get have access to data that would then get us to be able to provide kind of these us to be able to provide kind of these us to be able to provide kind of these analytics and insights inste instead analytics and insights inste instead analytics and insights inste instead what we're really hearing from customers what we're really hearing from customers what we're really hearing from customers is they've paid a lot of money for is they've paid a lot of money for is they've paid a lot of money for observability they've gone through huge observability they've gone through huge observability they've gone through huge effort to instrument all their software effort to instrument all their software effort to instrument all their software and now it's like H we're not going to and now it's like H we're not going to and now it's like H we're not going to add another add another add another thing so it's kind of like okay what do thing so it's kind of like okay what do thing so it's kind of like okay what do you do basically everyone's swimming in you do basically everyone's swimming in you do basically everyone's swimming in data if we could get access to that data data if we could get access to that data data if we could get access to that data could we then provide you with insights could we then provide you with insights could we then provide you with insights about what your systems are and aren't about what your systems are and aren't about what your systems are and aren't doing and so we actually fast forwarded doing and so we actually fast forwarded doing and so we actually fast forwarded what we thought would come later to do what we thought would come later to do what we thought would come later to do that sooner that term observability and that sooner that term observability and that sooner that term observability and also work that's happening in open also work that's happening in open also work that's happening in open Telemetry has been an explosion in the Telemetry has been an explosion in the Telemetry has been an explosion in the last couple of years there are these

last couple of years there are these last couple of years there are these terms that I use the term mouth feel terms that I use the term mouth feel terms that I use the term mouth feel like it's not fun to say cicd but it's like it's not fun to say cicd but it's like it's not fun to say cicd but it's fun to say devops you know and it's fun fun to say devops you know and it's fun fun to say devops you know and it's fun to say observability and like there's to say observability and like there's to say observability and like there's whole conferences now about whole conferences now about whole conferences now about observability and like are these just observability and like are these just observability and like are these just the same thing we did before except the same thing we did before except the same thing we did before except packaged and named better but packaged and named better but packaged and named better but observability seems like a like a big observability seems like a like a big observability seems like a like a big deal it seems like a fundamental new way deal it seems like a fundamental new way deal it seems like a fundamental new way of thinking about software that is um of thinking about software that is um of thinking about software that is um allowing us to explore insights and get allowing us to explore insights and get allowing us to explore insights and get an A sense of what's really happening in an A sense of what's really happening in an A sense of what's really happening in this large complicated system yeah it this large complicated system yeah it this large complicated system yeah it definitely is it's again I think of it definitely is it's again I think of it definitely is it's again I think of it as a like it's something within software as a like it's something within software as a like it's something within software engineering we've always had like the engineering we've always had like the engineering we've always had like the need for um instrumentation logging need for um instrumentation logging need for um instrumentation logging it's not it's really not new but it's to it's not it's really not new but it's to it's not it's really not new but it's to a new degree that we're doing that right a new degree that we're doing that right a new degree that we're doing that right and I think just broader acknowledgement and I think just broader acknowledgement and I think just broader acknowledgement that this needs to be at a much higher that this needs to be at a much higher that this needs to be at a much higher level than before because of the level than before because of the level than before because of the complexity and the fact that people can complexity and the fact that people can complexity and the fact that people can build lots of software really fast so build lots of software really fast so build lots of software really fast so now all of a sudden your complexity now all of a sudden your complexity now all of a sudden your complexity grows really fast um and so it's how do grows really fast um and so it's how do grows really fast um and so it's how do we Wrangle that with fewer and fewer we Wrangle that with fewer and fewer we Wrangle that with fewer and fewer people you know the the fewer and fewer people you know the the fewer and fewer people you know the the fewer and fewer people thing is an interesting one this people thing is an interesting one this people thing is an interesting one this is not the direction I thought we would is not the direction I thought we would is not the direction I thought we would go but I'll let me ask you this there's go but I'll let me ask you this there's go but I'll let me ask you this there's all these people out there talking about all these people out there talking about all these people out there talking about the mythical 10x developer and I kind of the mythical 10x developer and I kind of the mythical 10x developer and I kind of have always I actually wrote a whole have always I actually wrote a whole have always I actually wrote a whole blog post about how I reject that like blog post about how I reject that like blog post about how I reject that like yeah there's a couple of Joe's and Janes yeah there's a couple of Joe's and Janes yeah there's a couple of Joe's and Janes out there that are geniuses I get that out there that are geniuses I get that out there that are geniuses I get that but you can't hiring a genius is not a

but you can't hiring a genius is not a but you can't hiring a genius is not a strategy I'm a pretty mediocre B+ strategy I'm a pretty mediocre B+ strategy I'm a pretty mediocre B+ programmer myself I don't know how programmer myself I don't know how programmer myself I don't know how talented you are but you know I do okay talented you are but you know I do okay talented you are but you know I do okay I can get it done but when the the cloud I can get it done but when the the cloud I can get it done but when the the cloud and then containers and then cicd and and then containers and then cicd and and then containers and then cicd and understanding uh what was called Extreme understanding uh what was called Extreme understanding uh what was called Extreme programming but now then was agile but programming but now then was agile but programming but now then was agile but now it's just good common sense I feel now it's just good common sense I feel now it's just good common sense I feel like a 10x developer but it's the like a 10x developer but it's the like a 10x developer but it's the tooling that made it happen for me yeah tooling that made it happen for me yeah tooling that made it happen for me yeah is is that a reasonable way to think is is that a reasonable way to think is is that a reasonable way to think about it like a good tool can just about it like a good tool can just about it like a good tool can just unlock me and let do the fun stuff and unlock me and let do the fun stuff and unlock me and let do the fun stuff and not the yucky stuff yeah if you think not the yucky stuff yeah if you think not the yucky stuff yeah if you think about you probably don't have to go too about you probably don't have to go too about you probably don't have to go too far back right in your own development far back right in your own development far back right in your own development Journey To Think how long did it take Journey To Think how long did it take Journey To Think how long did it take like just a scale of time to build like just a scale of time to build like just a scale of time to build simple applications simple applications simple applications right and when you started this is where right and when you started this is where right and when you started this is where it is today hello world in it is today hello world in it is today hello world in 1992 was 91 lines of code I know that 1992 was 91 lines of code I know that 1992 was 91 lines of code I know that there was 91 to say hello world and there was 91 to say hello world and there was 91 to say hello world and windows and now it is one line of windows and now it is one line of windows and now it is one line of code yes that's a that's a silly metric code yes that's a that's a silly metric code yes that's a that's a silly metric and they just buried it you know but and they just buried it you know but and they just buried it you know but still you know that that additional still you know that that additional still you know that that additional layer of abstraction is magical yeah and layer of abstraction is magical yeah and layer of abstraction is magical yeah and it's interesting because it's with it's interesting because it's with it's interesting because it's with within our careers right not even a within our careers right not even a within our careers right not even a lifetime oh wow that has changed lifetime oh wow that has changed lifetime oh wow that has changed significantly what's interesting um in significantly what's interesting um in significantly what's interesting um in terms of from stans's Viewpoint and and terms of from stans's Viewpoint and and terms of from stans's Viewpoint and and what we see is we spent a lot of time what we see is we spent a lot of time what we see is we spent a lot of time speeding up development right the coding speeding up development right the coding speeding up development right the coding part what I would say we haven't added

part what I would say we haven't added part what I would say we haven't added as much in terms of tooling and help is as much in terms of tooling and help is as much in terms of tooling and help is okay once it's okay once it's okay once it's live now how are you going to like all live now how are you going to like all live now how are you going to like all the the post post relase I would say we the the post post relase I would say we the the post post relase I would say we have don't have those super tools to have don't have those super tools to have don't have those super tools to make that right as scalable in terms of make that right as scalable in terms of make that right as scalable in terms of if you got small team that can produce if you got small team that can produce if you got small team that can produce this much software can that small team this much software can that small team this much software can that small team still run that and everything else still run that and everything else still run that and everything else they're they're they're building and that's where there is a big building and that's where there is a big building and that's where there is a big pain point of this is where I think a pain point of this is where I think a pain point of this is where I think a lot of teams we get burnout we get a lot lot of teams we get burnout we get a lot lot of teams we get burnout we get a lot of it's kind of that uh the journey the of it's kind of that uh the journey the of it's kind of that uh the journey the dream dream dream lost of yes I I can I can build a lot of lost of yes I I can I can build a lot of lost of yes I I can I can build a lot of software there's a lot of interesting software there's a lot of interesting software there's a lot of interesting problems I can get to pretty easily now problems I can get to pretty easily now problems I can get to pretty easily now but man I'm Jagged down by I've got to but man I'm Jagged down by I've got to but man I'm Jagged down by I've got to deal with all the stuff in production deal with all the stuff in production deal with all the stuff in production and all and then it's like fiddling with and all and then it's like fiddling with and all and then it's like fiddling with all the different knobs in order to just all the different knobs in order to just all the different knobs in order to just keep the stuff running yeah the words keep the stuff running yeah the words keep the stuff running yeah the words that I hate the most are works on my that I hate the most are works on my that I hate the most are works on my machine right like that's the thing it machine right like that's the thing it machine right like that's the thing it it always works on my machine I feel it always works on my machine I feel it always works on my machine I feel like to a to a point containerization like to a to a point containerization like to a to a point containerization solved a lot of that for me but it's solved a lot of that for me but it's solved a lot of that for me but it's when you have now two containers and when you have now two containers and when you have now two containers and they're talking to each other about they're talking to each other about they're talking to each other about stuff and you know that that's when stuff and you know that that's when stuff and you know that that's when things get messy I can make any things get messy I can make any things get messy I can make any containerization is great I've got containerization is great I've got containerization is great I've got containers I wrote seven years ago that containers I wrote seven years ago that containers I wrote seven years ago that still run just fine because if you ship still run just fine because if you ship still run just fine because if you ship the whole computer it's bound to work the whole computer it's bound to work the whole computer it's bound to work fine but then you add in uh things like fine but then you add in uh things like fine but then you add in uh things like dependabot in the GitHub world and dependabot in the GitHub world and dependabot in the GitHub world and security things like who knows if that's security things like who knows if that's security things like who knows if that's a safe container to run but I know it'll a safe container to run but I know it'll a safe container to run but I know it'll run

run run reliably yeah yeah so the the amount of reliably yeah yeah so the the amount of reliably yeah yeah so the the amount of once you get into production amount of once you get into production amount of once you get into production amount of complexity there I would say we have not complexity there I would say we have not complexity there I would say we have not helped ourselves as much is we've helped helped ourselves as much is we've helped helped ourselves as much is we've helped ourselves on the the preas side um and ourselves on the the preas side um and ourselves on the the preas side um and so it's it is interesting that we have so it's it is interesting that we have so it's it is interesting that we have so much shift left like everyone wants so much shift left like everyone wants so much shift left like everyone wants to shift left I would still say that's to shift left I would still say that's to shift left I would still say that's really hard to do shift left is an really hard to do shift left is an really hard to do shift left is an interesting one I feel like that people interesting one I feel like that people interesting one I feel like that people like to use that term a lot and try to like to use that term a lot and try to like to use that term a lot and try to figure out what shift left and shift figure out what shift left and shift figure out what shift left and shift right means it almost feels like uh we right means it almost feels like uh we right means it almost feels like uh we use the term at worked hot potato and use the term at worked hot potato and use the term at worked hot potato and then when you're really upset it's then when you're really upset it's then when you're really upset it's flaming potato where just teams are just flaming potato where just teams are just flaming potato where just teams are just like throwing the hot you know this like throwing the hot you know this like throwing the hot you know this flaming potato back and forth ideally flaming potato back and forth ideally flaming potato back and forth ideally yes you want software and design and yes you want software and design and yes you want software and design and build and code to be where the bugs get build and code to be where the bugs get build and code to be where the bugs get found but shifting right also you've got found but shifting right also you've got found but shifting right also you've got performance reliability resilience uh is performance reliability resilience uh is performance reliability resilience uh is it a tug-of-war or is it a shift left I it a tug-of-war or is it a shift left I it a tug-of-war or is it a shift left I think that's where the uh frequent use think that's where the uh frequent use think that's where the uh frequent use of shift left leads to a lot of tension of shift left leads to a lot of tension of shift left leads to a lot of tension because especially recently like with because especially recently like with because especially recently like with all the tightening right of budgets and all the tightening right of budgets and all the tightening right of budgets and things like that and teen shrinking and things like that and teen shrinking and things like that and teen shrinking and so we are shifting left it's in the the so we are shifting left it's in the the so we are shifting left it's in the the positive way it's described but it's positive way it's described but it's positive way it's described but it's like if you if you haven't done like if you if you haven't done like if you if you haven't done significant work to actually change the significant work to actually change the significant work to actually change the way you're building software are you way you're building software are you way you're building software are you really just dumping it on like the really just dumping it on like the really just dumping it on like the lowest paid engineer and making them lowest paid engineer and making them lowest paid engineer and making them hurt it's almost like you're more like hurt it's almost like you're more like hurt it's almost like you're more like abandoning the right yeah and so other

abandoning the right yeah and so other abandoning the right yeah and so other people right so then you're borrowing people right so then you're borrowing people right so then you're borrowing your development time in order to fill your development time in order to fill your development time in order to fill the work that needs to be done on the the work that needs to be done on the the work that needs to be done on the right oh you are borrowing your right oh you are borrowing your right oh you are borrowing your development time that that is absolutely development time that that is absolutely development time that that is absolutely what is happening and then I think also what is happening and then I think also what is happening and then I think also back to the product back to the product back to the product perspective if we're squeezing the perspective if we're squeezing the perspective if we're squeezing the number if we're squeezing the budget for number if we're squeezing the budget for number if we're squeezing the budget for everything how do you making a product everything how do you making a product everything how do you making a product like this convince the the seite or like this convince the the seite or like this convince the the seite or whoever the decision maker is that like whoever the decision maker is that like whoever the decision maker is that like this is a product as opposed to it being this is a product as opposed to it being this is a product as opposed to it being a commoditized checkbox in some Cloud a commoditized checkbox in some Cloud a commoditized checkbox in some Cloud right there was a time when we used to right there was a time when we used to right there was a time when we used to fly a consultant in to do load balancing fly a consultant in to do load balancing fly a consultant in to do load balancing and now load balancing is a checkbox and now load balancing is a checkbox and now load balancing is a checkbox than that happened to your point in my than that happened to your point in my than that happened to your point in my lifetime how do you make sure that what lifetime how do you make sure that what lifetime how do you make sure that what you're building is going to be you know you're building is going to be you know you're building is going to be you know around for a long time and remain around for a long time and remain around for a long time and remain competitive as a product it's it's a competitive as a product it's it's a competitive as a product it's it's a good point um especially because the good point um especially because the good point um especially because the cloud is just shifting things in the cloud is just shifting things in the cloud is just shifting things in the cloud are just shifting so fast like if cloud are just shifting so fast like if cloud are just shifting so fast like if you only have to look at the last few you only have to look at the last few you only have to look at the last few years in terms of the developments um years in terms of the developments um years in terms of the developments um often think about kubernetes and again often think about kubernetes and again often think about kubernetes and again like just in a handful of years right like just in a handful of years right like just in a handful of years right it's changed significantly in terms of it's changed significantly in terms of it's changed significantly in terms of its adoption in common place and its adoption in common place and its adoption in common place and everyone uses it now but that the whole everyone uses it now but that the whole everyone uses it now but that the whole Cloud landscape is constantly just Cloud landscape is constantly just Cloud landscape is constantly just moving and so for everyone to keep up is moving and so for everyone to keep up is moving and so for everyone to keep up is really hard uh which is where what's really hard uh which is where what's really hard uh which is where what's interesting for stanza is what we are interesting for stanza is what we are interesting for stanza is what we are trying to do is is trying to do is is trying to do is is to help all the humans right to get to

to help all the humans right to get to to help all the humans right to get to that faster comprehension and to be able that faster comprehension and to be able that faster comprehension and to be able to manage in a in a simpler easier way to manage in a in a simpler easier way to manage in a in a simpler easier way all the information that is within all the information that is within all the information that is within production and operations data uh and so production and operations data uh and so production and operations data uh and so we feel like that is actually almost we feel like that is actually almost we feel like that is actually almost like the next area we we all need to like the next area we we all need to like the next area we we all need to tackle is that we've given ourselves tackle is that we've given ourselves tackle is that we've given ourselves we've we've done a great job in terms of we've we've done a great job in terms of we've we've done a great job in terms of instrumentation we've got we call it instrumentation we've got we call it instrumentation we've got we call it signals um in comprehensions and actions signals um in comprehensions and actions signals um in comprehensions and actions done a great job on the signals part done a great job on the signals part done a great job on the signals part lots of data fantastic um we actually lots of data fantastic um we actually lots of data fantastic um we actually are doing pretty job in actions in terms are doing pretty job in actions in terms are doing pretty job in actions in terms of there's many things you can do in of there's many things you can do in of there's many things you can do in your infrastructure your infrastructure your infrastructure Cloud manage services the question is Cloud manage services the question is Cloud manage services the question is what sits in the middle in terms of what sits in the middle in terms of what sits in the middle in terms of Translating that information that signal Translating that information that signal Translating that information that signal to them decide what to do in terms of to them decide what to do in terms of to them decide what to do in terms of the actions and this is where we still the actions and this is where we still the actions and this is where we still rely on our senior folks to spend time rely on our senior folks to spend time rely on our senior folks to spend time to say okay go sift through the data and to say okay go sift through the data and to say okay go sift through the data and see where this problem might be or why see where this problem might be or why see where this problem might be or why this system is so flaky or why when we this system is so flaky or why when we this system is so flaky or why when we went through that last promotion the went through that last promotion the went through that last promotion the thing fell over but it's it's a very thing fell over but it's it's a very thing fell over but it's it's a very targeted thing and it's very human based targeted thing and it's very human based targeted thing and it's very human based because they're taking the context of because they're taking the context of because they're taking the context of all the different systems what can I all the different systems what can I all the different systems what can I ignore what do I pay attention to what ignore what do I pay attention to what ignore what do I pay attention to what do I know about these systems like this do I know about these systems like this do I know about these systems like this one I know is weird so I start looking one I know is weird so I start looking one I know is weird so I start looking at that one first and so we're trying to at that one first and so we're trying to at that one first and so we're trying to systematize that a little bit so that systematize that a little bit so that systematize that a little bit so that then teams are actually getting more then teams are actually getting more then teams are actually getting more value out of all their signal and value out of all their signal and value out of all their signal and actually having some a a little bit of a actually having some a a little bit of a actually having some a a little bit of a almost a better idea of where are where

almost a better idea of where are where almost a better idea of where are where should you be focused on a little bit of should you be focused on a little bit of should you be focused on a little bit of a prioritization list terms of what is a prioritization list terms of what is a prioritization list terms of what is going to be hey did you know this this going to be hey did you know this this going to be hey did you know this this particular service things around it have particular service things around it have particular service things around it have changed enough that one is actually a changed enough that one is actually a changed enough that one is actually a riskus one now um and trying to give riskus one now um and trying to give riskus one now um and trying to give those Clues your uh your CEO uh Neel those Clues your uh your CEO uh Neel those Clues your uh your CEO uh Neel Murphy said that one of the goals of Murphy said that one of the goals of Murphy said that one of the goals of stanza has been to put the wisdom of Sr stanza has been to put the wisdom of Sr stanza has been to put the wisdom of Sr into software I really feel like that is into software I really feel like that is into software I really feel like that is an extension of the idea of the software an extension of the idea of the software an extension of the idea of the software development life cycle like there was a development life cycle like there was a development life cycle like there was a time when they would give you a Word time when they would give you a Word time when they would give you a Word document and say Here's the word document and say Here's the word document and say Here's the word document and it's how you build but Word document and it's how you build but Word document and it's how you build but Word documents don't break the build you know documents don't break the build you know documents don't break the build you know and they don't do they just they're not and they don't do they just they're not and they don't do they just they're not codified they're just Word documents and codified they're just Word documents and codified they're just Word documents and there's a lot of wisdom and shared there's a lot of wisdom and shared there's a lot of wisdom and shared stories and people with a high bus stories and people with a high bus stories and people with a high bus Factor who leave the company and then Factor who leave the company and then Factor who leave the company and then you're like oh my God I had no idea you're like oh my God I had no idea you're like oh my God I had no idea Stacy knew where everything was now that Stacy knew where everything was now that Stacy knew where everything was now that she's gone what do we do um getting that she's gone what do we do um getting that she's gone what do we do um getting that wisdom into software so that the Next wisdom into software so that the Next wisdom into software so that the Next Generation can better understand these Generation can better understand these Generation can better understand these large systems seems to be what you're large systems seems to be what you're large systems seems to be what you're trying to accomplish at stanza yeah it's trying to accomplish at stanza yeah it's trying to accomplish at stanza yeah it's also even just how to think about these also even just how to think about these also even just how to think about these systems right in terms of if you think systems right in terms of if you think systems right in terms of if you think about your more Junior Engineers about your more Junior Engineers about your more Junior Engineers sometimes what they're learning most sometimes what they're learning most sometimes what they're learning most from your senior folks is how do I think from your senior folks is how do I think from your senior folks is how do I think about the problems the um so we're about the problems the um so we're about the problems the um so we're seeing this Behavior but then how do I seeing this Behavior but then how do I seeing this Behavior but then how do I go about you know dissecting it and go about you know dissecting it and go about you know dissecting it and debugging it and then how do I gauge the debugging it and then how do I gauge the debugging it and then how do I gauge the all the options I have in terms of how all the options I have in terms of how all the options I have in terms of how to solve it and so that's what we are to solve it and so that's what we are to solve it and so that's what we are trying to put into as as n says

trying to put into as as n says trying to put into as as n says regularly yes put into software so that regularly yes put into software so that regularly yes put into software so that we can give better pointers at least at we can give better pointers at least at we can give better pointers at least at least gets you off to a a jumping Point least gets you off to a a jumping Point least gets you off to a a jumping Point faster right than starting from nothing faster right than starting from nothing faster right than starting from nothing yeah I was talking to my intelligent yeah I was talking to my intelligent yeah I was talking to my intelligent apps friend uh Maria and she was talking apps friend uh Maria and she was talking apps friend uh Maria and she was talking about how we're going to be able to about how we're going to be able to about how we're going to be able to interview infinitely patient AIS about interview infinitely patient AIS about interview infinitely patient AIS about our applications like it it would be our applications like it it would be our applications like it it would be nice to be able to for a junior or early nice to be able to for a junior or early nice to be able to for a junior or early in career person to be able to just sit in career person to be able to just sit in career person to be able to just sit there and talk to something about the there and talk to something about the there and talk to something about the app and brainstorm with a infinitely app and brainstorm with a infinitely app and brainstorm with a infinitely patient and then and I I put a real patient and then and I I put a real patient and then and I I put a real emphasis on that idea of infinitely emphasis on that idea of infinitely emphasis on that idea of infinitely patient because I don't want to call patient because I don't want to call patient because I don't want to call Stacy and say hey there's a problem with Stacy and say hey there's a problem with Stacy and say hey there's a problem with the oh Hanselman again oh what is this the oh Hanselman again oh what is this the oh Hanselman again oh what is this guy keep calling guy keep calling guy keep calling me but you've got the insights I want to me but you've got the insights I want to me but you've got the insights I want to know what's going on why is it be why is know what's going on why is it be why is know what's going on why is it be why is the app absolutely true what would be the app absolutely true what would be the app absolutely true what would be interesting too is if that um and this interesting too is if that um and this interesting too is if that um and this is where particularly for aile having is where particularly for aile having is where particularly for aile having having been one of the authors for the S having been one of the authors for the S having been one of the authors for the S book is uh you could have your AI book is uh you could have your AI book is uh you could have your AI assistant also swallow a couple books assistant also swallow a couple books assistant also swallow a couple books right and add that in to me when I think right and add that in to me when I think right and add that in to me when I think about that I'm like H so what does that about that I'm like H so what does that about that I'm like H so what does that mean for books yeah but what does it mean for books yeah but what does it mean for books yeah but what does it mean for junior Engineers too I want it mean for junior Engineers too I want it mean for junior Engineers too I want it to mean it makes them better faster to mean it makes them better faster to mean it makes them better faster absolutely I don't want it to mean that absolutely I don't want it to mean that absolutely I don't want it to mean that they don't have to think anymore oh they don't have to think anymore oh they don't have to think anymore oh that's a good point and I do think uh that's a good point and I do think uh that's a good point and I do think uh that's often what we learn the most when that's often what we learn the most when that's often what we learn the most when we sit side by side right with the we sit side by side right with the we sit side by side right with the senior engineer is the thought senior engineer is the thought senior engineer is the thought process and the breakdown of our problem

process and the breakdown of our problem process and the breakdown of our problem yeah that is so important my uh my yeah that is so important my uh my yeah that is so important my uh my nephew just got his very first job out nephew just got his very first job out nephew just got his very first job out of University and he's an electrical of University and he's an electrical of University and he's an electrical engineer and he was initially very engineer and he was initially very engineer and he was initially very excited about working from home but he excited about working from home but he excited about working from home but he it turns out that the office is about it turns out that the office is about it turns out that the office is about four blocks away and all of the other four blocks away and all of the other four blocks away and all of the other electric Engineers are a bunch of um uh electric Engineers are a bunch of um uh electric Engineers are a bunch of um uh multi-gender gray beards of varying you multi-gender gray beards of varying you multi-gender gray beards of varying you know flavors that are all kind of like know flavors that are all kind of like know flavors that are all kind of like in their 50s and I'm like you got to go in their 50s and I'm like you got to go in their 50s and I'm like you got to go to the office and you got to suck these to the office and you got to suck these to the office and you got to suck these people dry yes they they so much hang people dry yes they they so much hang people dry yes they they so much hang out with them and sit over their out with them and sit over their out with them and sit over their shoulder and say what what are you doing shoulder and say what what are you doing shoulder and say what what are you doing there what's that do yeah because you're there what's that do yeah because you're there what's that do yeah because you're the next Gray beard the next Gray beard the next Gray beard exactly and that's and it's interesting exactly and that's and it's interesting exactly and that's and it's interesting because that's where observation because that's where observation because that's where observation sometimes just watching yeah so how when sometimes just watching yeah so how when sometimes just watching yeah so how when goes about poking around a problem yeah goes about poking around a problem yeah goes about poking around a problem yeah sometimes that's the most insightful sometimes that's the most insightful sometimes that's the most insightful stuff that you you get from that stuff that you you get from that stuff that you you get from that interaction yeah and you know whether interaction yeah and you know whether interaction yeah and you know whether you do that remotely over a video call you do that remotely over a video call you do that remotely over a video call like we're doing now being able to talk like we're doing now being able to talk like we're doing now being able to talk to someone who can get you the answers to someone who can get you the answers to someone who can get you the answers you want uh and get you that sense of you want uh and get you that sense of you want uh and get you that sense of why is the site doing this uh is going why is the site doing this uh is going why is the site doing this uh is going to just make you a better engineer for to just make you a better engineer for to just make you a better engineer for the next Sr issue yeah well thank you so the next Sr issue yeah well thank you so the next Sr issue yeah well thank you so much for chatting with me today this has much for chatting with me today this has much for chatting with me today this has been an absolute Joy yeah thanks Scott been an absolute Joy yeah thanks Scott been an absolute Joy yeah thanks Scott enjoyed this we've been chatting with enjoyed this we've been chatting with enjoyed this we've been chatting with Stacy Frederick she's a CPO at stanza Stacy Frederick she's a CPO at stanza Stacy Frederick she's a CPO at stanza you can check them out at www.stanza.co