Tiny Experiments with Anne-Laure Le Cunff

Hi, this is Scott Hansselman. This is Hi, this is Scott Hansselman. This is another episode of Hansel Minutes. Today another episode of Hansel Minutes. Today another episode of Hansel Minutes. Today I have the absolute pleasure of chatting I have the absolute pleasure of chatting I have the absolute pleasure of chatting with Dr. Enlure Lon, the author of Tiny with Dr. Enlure Lon, the author of Tiny with Dr. Enlure Lon, the author of Tiny Experiments and the founder of Ness Experiments and the founder of Ness Experiments and the founder of Ness Labs. How are you? I'm feeling great. Labs. How are you? I'm feeling great. Labs. How are you? I'm feeling great. How are you doing? I'm okay. I uh it's How are you doing? I'm okay. I uh it's How are you doing? I'm okay. I uh it's the beginning of Is it the beginning of the beginning of Is it the beginning of the beginning of Is it the beginning of the week? I don't even know where I'm the week? I don't even know where I'm the week? I don't even know where I'm at. I was just going to say it's the at. I was just going to say it's the at. I was just going to say it's the beginning of the week and then I beginning of the week and then I beginning of the week and then I realized it's in fact the beginning of realized it's in fact the beginning of realized it's in fact the beginning of the weekend, which maybe now I'm the weekend, which maybe now I'm the weekend, which maybe now I'm questioning my own psychological state questioning my own psychological state questioning my own psychological state right now. right now. right now. Um yeah, it is. Wait, no, it's the Um yeah, it is. Wait, no, it's the Um yeah, it is. Wait, no, it's the beginning of the week. I don't know when beginning of the week. I don't know when beginning of the week. I don't know when people are going to listen to this, but people are going to listen to this, but people are going to listen to this, but right now it's the beginning of the right now it's the beginning of the right now it's the beginning of the week. Is it? Oh my goodness. That's time week. Is it? Oh my goodness. That's time week. Is it? Oh my goodness. That's time has no meaning. It is Monday. has no meaning. It is Monday. has no meaning. It is Monday. We're recording this on a Monday. Well, We're recording this on a Monday. Well, We're recording this on a Monday. Well, which actually is a great segue into the which actually is a great segue into the which actually is a great segue into the concept of linearity. Uh you bring this concept of linearity. Uh you bring this concept of linearity. Uh you bring this up as a theme kind of throughout the up as a theme kind of throughout the up as a theme kind of throughout the book, the kind of like the the linear book, the kind of like the the linear book, the kind of like the the linear goals uh cause fear, linear goals cause goals uh cause fear, linear goals cause goals uh cause fear, linear goals cause competition. But this is challenging competition. But this is challenging competition. But this is challenging because we are moving through time because we are moving through time because we are moving through time linearly in a single direction. So it linearly in a single direction. So it linearly in a single direction. So it seems natural to make goals. I know that seems natural to make goals. I know that seems natural to make goals. I know that the way I think about things is I look the way I think about things is I look the way I think about things is I look forward to things. My wife cannot forward to things. My wife cannot forward to things. My wife cannot function unless she has something to function unless she has something to function unless she has something to look forward to whether it be a dinner look forward to whether it be a dinner look forward to whether it be a dinner or tea or a summer vacation. Why why is or tea or a summer vacation. Why why is or tea or a summer vacation. Why why is linearity both something that we are uh linearity both something that we are uh linearity both something that we are uh forced upon us but maybe is a mistake? M forced upon us but maybe is a mistake? M forced upon us but maybe is a mistake? M I think there's a first there's a little I think there's a first there's a little I think there's a first there's a little bit of there's a difference between

bit of there's a difference between bit of there's a difference between looking forward to events in life looking forward to events in life looking forward to events in life activities moments that you're excited activities moments that you're excited activities moments that you're excited about and between that and a linear goal about and between that and a linear goal about and between that and a linear goal which is an outcome that you organize which is an outcome that you organize which is an outcome that you organize your life around where you usually tie your life around where you usually tie your life around where you usually tie your happiness to this happening in the your happiness to this happening in the your happiness to this happening in the way you want it to happen or not. And way you want it to happen or not. And way you want it to happen or not. And this is the this is what I recommend this is the this is what I recommend this is the this is what I recommend people trying to free themselves from people trying to free themselves from people trying to free themselves from organizing their entire lives and organizing their entire lives and organizing their entire lives and careers around linear goals. Linear careers around linear goals. Linear careers around linear goals. Linear goals can be helpful in some ways if you goals can be helpful in some ways if you goals can be helpful in some ways if you want to be successful in a very specific want to be successful in a very specific want to be successful in a very specific narrow predefined way. And there are a narrow predefined way. And there are a narrow predefined way. And there are a lots of things in our lives and in lots of things in our lives and in lots of things in our lives and in society that work like that. If you want society that work like that. If you want society that work like that. If you want to save money in terms of, you know, to save money in terms of, you know, to save money in terms of, you know, getting a mortgage to buy a house, getting a mortgage to buy a house, getting a mortgage to buy a house, that's a very linear thing and that's that's a very linear thing and that's that's a very linear thing and that's okay to do that. What I advocate for is okay to do that. What I advocate for is okay to do that. What I advocate for is being a little bit more intentional and being a little bit more intentional and being a little bit more intentional and not always using linear goals for any not always using linear goals for any not always using linear goals for any area of your life where you could area of your life where you could area of your life where you could potentially be a little bit more potentially be a little bit more potentially be a little bit more experimental. And I contrast in the book experimental. And I contrast in the book experimental. And I contrast in the book the linear approach where you have a the linear approach where you have a the linear approach where you have a clear outcome, a clear vision, a clear clear outcome, a clear vision, a clear clear outcome, a clear vision, a clear plan, and then you just work really hard plan, and then you just work really hard plan, and then you just work really hard to get there. With the experimental to get there. With the experimental to get there. With the experimental approach where instead of starting with approach where instead of starting with approach where instead of starting with a specific outcome, you start with a a specific outcome, you start with a a specific outcome, you start with a question, a hypothesis. You're not quite question, a hypothesis. You're not quite question, a hypothesis. You're not quite sure it's going to work, but you're sure it's going to work, but you're sure it's going to work, but you're curious enough to give it a try. This

curious enough to give it a try. This curious enough to give it a try. This seems this is very personal to me seems this is very personal to me seems this is very personal to me because I have a 17-year-old who is because I have a 17-year-old who is because I have a 17-year-old who is entering his last year of high school entering his last year of high school entering his last year of high school and a 19-year-old who is now a freshman and a 19-year-old who is now a freshman and a 19-year-old who is now a freshman in school and both of them feel pressure in school and both of them feel pressure in school and both of them feel pressure to have a plan and I it's not coming to have a plan and I it's not coming to have a plan and I it's not coming from me. It could be society. It could from me. It could be society. It could from me. It could be society. It could be Instagram reels. I don't know. But be Instagram reels. I don't know. But be Instagram reels. I don't know. But they both feel like they need a purpose. they both feel like they need a purpose. they both feel like they need a purpose. And you mentioned the tyranny of And you mentioned the tyranny of And you mentioned the tyranny of purpose. this kind of single overarching purpose. this kind of single overarching purpose. this kind of single overarching purpose and there's this two this two purpose and there's this two this two purpose and there's this two this two punch. There's the tyranny of purpose punch. There's the tyranny of purpose punch. There's the tyranny of purpose and then the creation of linear goals to and then the creation of linear goals to and then the creation of linear goals to achieve that purpose and then if you achieve that purpose and then if you achieve that purpose and then if you don't then you're just a failure. Like don't then you're just a failure. Like don't then you're just a failure. Like if you don't become a nurse or a doctor, if you don't become a nurse or a doctor, if you don't become a nurse or a doctor, well, it's over for you and now you're well, it's over for you and now you're well, it's over for you and now you're just working the fries. Yeah, just working the fries. Yeah, just working the fries. Yeah, absolutely. This is really the problem absolutely. This is really the problem absolutely. This is really the problem with this entire with this entire with this entire um this is something I discovered um this is something I discovered um this is something I discovered actually. it was not really supposed to actually. it was not really supposed to actually. it was not really supposed to be a chapter in the book, but I was so be a chapter in the book, but I was so be a chapter in the book, but I was so shocked when I found this data when I shocked when I found this data when I shocked when I found this data when I was doing research for the book that the was doing research for the book that the was doing research for the book that the the number of mentions of finding your the number of mentions of finding your the number of mentions of finding your purpose has increased by purpose has increased by purpose has increased by 700%. In books over the past two 700%. In books over the past two 700%. In books over the past two decades, so there is a an obsession with decades, so there is a an obsession with decades, so there is a an obsession with finding our purpose. We are obsessed finding our purpose. We are obsessed finding our purpose. We are obsessed with this idea. The problem with that with this idea. The problem with that with this idea. The problem with that is many folds, but I'll just focus on on is many folds, but I'll just focus on on is many folds, but I'll just focus on on two of these problems. The first one is

two of these problems. The first one is two of these problems. The first one is that it forces people to put all of that it forces people to put all of that it forces people to put all of their eggs in the same basket. They feel their eggs in the same basket. They feel their eggs in the same basket. They feel like they have to have this one thing, like they have to have this one thing, like they have to have this one thing, this one big thing that is where they this one big thing that is where they this one big thing that is where they tie their sense of identity and tie their sense of identity and tie their sense of identity and selfworth to the success of that thing. selfworth to the success of that thing. selfworth to the success of that thing. And when that thing doesn't work out, And when that thing doesn't work out, And when that thing doesn't work out, they actually lose their their sense of they actually lose their their sense of they actually lose their their sense of selfworth. We see that a lot in tech selfworth. We see that a lot in tech selfworth. We see that a lot in tech with people doing startups for example with people doing startups for example with people doing startups for example where when the startup fails people where when the startup fails people where when the startup fails people actually experience chronic anxiety, actually experience chronic anxiety, actually experience chronic anxiety, depression and it's actually really depression and it's actually really depression and it's actually really difficult for them to recover from that difficult for them to recover from that difficult for them to recover from that experience. So that's one problem. The experience. So that's one problem. The experience. So that's one problem. The other problem is when people haven't other problem is when people haven't other problem is when people haven't found their purpose and they look around found their purpose and they look around found their purpose and they look around them and they look at people who them and they look at people who them and they look at people who seemingly have figured it out and they seemingly have figured it out and they seemingly have figured it out and they feel like because they haven't found feel like because they haven't found feel like because they haven't found their purpose yet, maybe their life has their purpose yet, maybe their life has their purpose yet, maybe their life has less meaning and maybe something is less meaning and maybe something is less meaning and maybe something is wrong with the way they're approaching wrong with the way they're approaching wrong with the way they're approaching their lives. But when you talk to people their lives. But when you talk to people their lives. But when you talk to people who have found their thing and by their who have found their thing and by their who have found their thing and by their thing I simply means means being excited thing I simply means means being excited thing I simply means means being excited in the morning when you wake up and you in the morning when you wake up and you in the morning when you wake up and you look forward to your day. That's what I look forward to your day. That's what I look forward to your day. That's what I mean by you found your thing. When you mean by you found your thing. When you mean by you found your thing. When you ask people so how did you found your ask people so how did you found your ask people so how did you found your thing? None of them will tell you that thing? None of them will tell you that thing? None of them will tell you that they obsessed over it and they had a they obsessed over it and they had a they obsessed over it and they had a plan and they went through five plan and they went through five plan and they went through five different worksheets that allowed them different worksheets that allowed them different worksheets that allowed them to figure out what their purpose was.

to figure out what their purpose was. to figure out what their purpose was. All of them will tell you you know All of them will tell you you know All of them will tell you you know actually I was trying this thing and actually I was trying this thing and actually I was trying this thing and then this old buddy of mine reached out then this old buddy of mine reached out then this old buddy of mine reached out and say hey do you want to work on that and say hey do you want to work on that and say hey do you want to work on that thing together and I was like sure let's thing together and I was like sure let's thing together and I was like sure let's try this thing and then in the the try this thing and then in the the try this thing and then in the the course of that I have to acquire that course of that I have to acquire that course of that I have to acquire that skill and learn that new thing and this skill and learn that new thing and this skill and learn that new thing and this new tool and then one morning I woke up new tool and then one morning I woke up new tool and then one morning I woke up and I realized that I was feeling pretty and I realized that I was feeling pretty and I realized that I was feeling pretty good about what I was working on and good about what I was working on and good about what I was working on and that means that first they understand that means that first they understand that means that first they understand that figuring out your thing is a messy that figuring out your thing is a messy that figuring out your thing is a messy process. This is not something that you process. This is not something that you process. This is not something that you can engineer in advance in a linear way. can engineer in advance in a linear way. can engineer in advance in a linear way. Second, they know that this purpose Second, they know that this purpose Second, they know that this purpose might change. This is just something might change. This is just something might change. This is just something they're currently very excited about, they're currently very excited about, they're currently very excited about, but it doesn't have to be this big one but it doesn't have to be this big one but it doesn't have to be this big one thing that you obsess over for the rest thing that you obsess over for the rest thing that you obsess over for the rest of your life. of your life. of your life. Do you think that the last 20 years the Do you think that the last 20 years the Do you think that the last 20 years the change has been social media? that the change has been social media? that the change has been social media? that the problem is that the algorithm and the problem is that the algorithm and the problem is that the algorithm and the algorithm is designed to keep you algorithm is designed to keep you algorithm is designed to keep you scrolling, which means that the scrolling, which means that the scrolling, which means that the algorithm is designed to make you feel algorithm is designed to make you feel algorithm is designed to make you feel bad about yourself and that you go to bad about yourself and that you go to bad about yourself and that you go to this thing looking for for a burst of this thing looking for for a burst of this thing looking for for a burst of serotonin and you think maybe the next serotonin and you think maybe the next serotonin and you think maybe the next reel, maybe the next Tik Tok will be the reel, maybe the next Tik Tok will be the reel, maybe the next Tik Tok will be the one that will help and it isn't. And one that will help and it isn't. And one that will help and it isn't. And like candy, it gives you a moment of like candy, it gives you a moment of like candy, it gives you a moment of joy, but it's ultimately empty calories.

joy, but it's ultimately empty calories. joy, but it's ultimately empty calories. And the result of that is a generation And the result of that is a generation And the result of that is a generation of people believing that everyone but of people believing that everyone but of people believing that everyone but them has it figured out. Oh, absolutely. them has it figured out. Oh, absolutely. them has it figured out. Oh, absolutely. This um experience of scrolling through This um experience of scrolling through This um experience of scrolling through people's life, their lives, the earth, people's life, their lives, the earth, people's life, their lives, the earth, content that is manufactured in a way to content that is manufactured in a way to content that is manufactured in a way to make you feel like that is this is make you feel like that is this is make you feel like that is this is really as if we were all looking at a really as if we were all looking at a really as if we were all looking at a giant leaderboard and all comparing giant leaderboard and all comparing giant leaderboard and all comparing ourselves to each others. And when you ourselves to each others. And when you ourselves to each others. And when you think about it, this is not normal that think about it, this is not normal that think about it, this is not normal that I'm able to get a look into this I'm able to get a look into this I'm able to get a look into this perfectly manicured version of hundreds perfectly manicured version of hundreds perfectly manicured version of hundreds of people and have unlimited access to of people and have unlimited access to of people and have unlimited access to that and be able to compare myself like that and be able to compare myself like that and be able to compare myself like this. And including people, you know, this. And including people, you know, this. And including people, you know, I'm even thinking about I'm not even I'm even thinking about I'm not even I'm even thinking about I'm not even talking about celebrities. I'm talking talking about celebrities. I'm talking talking about celebrities. I'm talking about people you went to school with 30, about people you went to school with 30, about people you went to school with 30, 20, 15 years ago and you're able to look 20, 15 years ago and you're able to look 20, 15 years ago and you're able to look at exactly where they're at in their at exactly where they're at in their at exactly where they're at in their careers and what they're working on. And careers and what they're working on. And careers and what they're working on. And obviously they will only were we're obviously they will only were we're obviously they will only were we're incentivized to only share our successes incentivized to only share our successes incentivized to only share our successes online. So you'll see all of the awards online. So you'll see all of the awards online. So you'll see all of the awards they're getting, the cool projects that they're getting, the cool projects that they're getting, the cool projects that they launched, the cool features that they launched, the cool features that they launched, the cool features that they worked on, and you will inevitably they worked on, and you will inevitably they worked on, and you will inevitably ask yourself, why is it that this person ask yourself, why is it that this person ask yourself, why is it that this person who was in school with me exactly at the who was in school with me exactly at the who was in school with me exactly at the same time is there up there? This same time is there up there? This same time is there up there? This artificial up there as if there was an artificial up there as if there was an artificial up there as if there was an up and down in the ladder that we were up and down in the ladder that we were up and down in the ladder that we were all climbing. Why are they there and I'm all climbing. Why are they there and I'm all climbing. Why are they there and I'm here? not realizing that they're here? not realizing that they're here? not realizing that they're obviously excelling in some parts of

obviously excelling in some parts of obviously excelling in some parts of their lives when maybe they had to their lives when maybe they had to their lives when maybe they had to obviously they had to make some obviously they had to make some obviously they had to make some trade-offs in other areas of their lives trade-offs in other areas of their lives trade-offs in other areas of their lives which you're not aware of. So this is a which you're not aware of. So this is a which you're not aware of. So this is a giant artificial leaderboard that is giant artificial leaderboard that is giant artificial leaderboard that is forcing us to stay on that treadmill and forcing us to stay on that treadmill and forcing us to stay on that treadmill and keep on climbing and we never ever ever keep on climbing and we never ever ever keep on climbing and we never ever ever feel like it's enough. feel like it's enough. feel like it's enough. So it's easy to say I as an engineer one So it's easy to say I as an engineer one So it's easy to say I as an engineer one of the things that we are trained not to of the things that we are trained not to of the things that we are trained not to say is just someone shares their work say is just someone shares their work say is just someone shares their work someone shares their data someone shares someone shares their data someone shares someone shares their data someone shares their life and they go why don't you their life and they go why don't you their life and they go why don't you just do this as if that little tweet just do this as if that little tweet just do this as if that little tweet that little moment is enough oh I'm that little moment is enough oh I'm that little moment is enough oh I'm feeling sad why don't you just go for a feeling sad why don't you just go for a feeling sad why don't you just go for a walk but why don't we just stop walk but why don't we just stop walk but why don't we just stop scrolling I know that's stupid to say scrolling I know that's stupid to say scrolling I know that's stupid to say but why don't we simply not participate but why don't we simply not participate but why don't we simply not participate it's incred incredibly addictive. I'm a it's incred incredibly addictive. I'm a it's incred incredibly addictive. I'm a neuroscientist. I am one of the people neuroscientist. I am one of the people neuroscientist. I am one of the people who are I'm the most aware of what it who are I'm the most aware of what it who are I'm the most aware of what it does to us and I still find myself does to us and I still find myself does to us and I still find myself scrolling when I'm a bit stressed, a bit scrolling when I'm a bit stressed, a bit scrolling when I'm a bit stressed, a bit tired, a bit anxious and I will pull out tired, a bit anxious and I will pull out tired, a bit anxious and I will pull out my phone and I'll be on Instagram and my phone and I'll be on Instagram and my phone and I'll be on Instagram and scrolling through my feed. So this is scrolling through my feed. So this is scrolling through my feed. So this is one of those cases and there are many one of those cases and there are many one of those cases and there are many such cases where just the information of such cases where just the information of such cases where just the information of knowing that this is not good for you is knowing that this is not good for you is knowing that this is not good for you is not enough for you to not do it. And so not enough for you to not do it. And so not enough for you to not do it. And so this is what I don't I never tell people this is what I don't I never tell people this is what I don't I never tell people just stop scrolling because that would just stop scrolling because that would just stop scrolling because that would be such a first not helpful second

be such a first not helpful second be such a first not helpful second hyperritical thing to say when I still hyperritical thing to say when I still hyperritical thing to say when I still struggle with it myself. I tell people struggle with it myself. I tell people struggle with it myself. I tell people try to replace a little bit of the try to replace a little bit of the try to replace a little bit of the scrolling with something that is a bit scrolling with something that is a bit scrolling with something that is a bit more generative. And even with social more generative. And even with social more generative. And even with social media, if you can just go on the other media, if you can just go on the other media, if you can just go on the other side of the this equation of the side of the this equation of the side of the this equation of the algorithm and maybe create something algorithm and maybe create something algorithm and maybe create something useful, if you can just do that from useful, if you can just do that from useful, if you can just do that from time to time, you're already doing time to time, you're already doing time to time, you're already doing something that is a lot more positive something that is a lot more positive something that is a lot more positive for yourself, for the people around you, for yourself, for the people around you, for yourself, for the people around you, and for your community. And if you're and for your community. And if you're and for your community. And if you're still scrolling from time to time, still scrolling from time to time, still scrolling from time to time, that's fine. You're still human. But that's fine. You're still human. But that's fine. You're still human. But maybe once a week, try to pick something maybe once a week, try to pick something maybe once a week, try to pick something you're curious about, something you you're curious about, something you you're curious about, something you learned, something you discovered, and learned, something you discovered, and learned, something you discovered, and that could be just a podcast, a link that could be just a podcast, a link that could be just a podcast, a link something you read or something you saw something you read or something you saw something you read or something you saw on your way to work, and maybe share on your way to work, and maybe share on your way to work, and maybe share that with your community. And so that's that with your community. And so that's that with your community. And so that's the advice I'm giving people. Yeah. And the advice I'm giving people. Yeah. And the advice I'm giving people. Yeah. And you call that out. You you start in the you call that out. You you start in the you call that out. You you start in the beginning of the book and you call out beginning of the book and you call out beginning of the book and you call out the tyranny of purpose in chapter two, the tyranny of purpose in chapter two, the tyranny of purpose in chapter two, but then by chapter 11 you've pivoted but then by chapter 11 you've pivoted but then by chapter 11 you've pivoted and you're encouraging folks to find a and you're encouraging folks to find a and you're encouraging folks to find a way to learn in public. That can be way to learn in public. That can be way to learn in public. That can be challenging if you feel like the public challenging if you feel like the public challenging if you feel like the public is against you or one comment if your is against you or one comment if your is against you or one comment if your psyche is fragile to the point where one psyche is fragile to the point where one psyche is fragile to the point where one comment can kick you off forever or comment can kick you off forever or comment can kick you off forever or maybe you're of a group that doesn't maybe you're of a group that doesn't maybe you're of a group that doesn't feel comfortable able to express feel comfortable able to express feel comfortable able to express yourself. uh you know it's may be easy yourself. uh you know it's may be easy yourself. uh you know it's may be easy for me to go out there and talk about for me to go out there and talk about for me to go out there and talk about the stuff that I'm doing without fear of the stuff that I'm doing without fear of the stuff that I'm doing without fear of repercussions but for others it could be repercussions but for others it could be repercussions but for others it could be more challenging. Yeah, absolutely. This more challenging. Yeah, absolutely. This more challenging. Yeah, absolutely. This is why when I talk about learning in

is why when I talk about learning in is why when I talk about learning in public people who haven't read that public people who haven't read that public people who haven't read that chapter might assume that I talk about chapter might assume that I talk about chapter might assume that I talk about having a bit big social media following having a bit big social media following having a bit big social media following and learning in a very very public way and learning in a very very public way and learning in a very very public way but learning in public is a spectrum. So but learning in public is a spectrum. So but learning in public is a spectrum. So yes, absolutely you can do that on a yes, absolutely you can do that on a yes, absolutely you can do that on a very big public platform if that's what very big public platform if that's what very big public platform if that's what you want to do. But for most people, you want to do. But for most people, you want to do. But for most people, learning in public is really just making learning in public is really just making learning in public is really just making sure that outside of yourself, there is sure that outside of yourself, there is sure that outside of yourself, there is at least one other human being who is at least one other human being who is at least one other human being who is aware of what you're currently trying to aware of what you're currently trying to aware of what you're currently trying to study, to experiment with, to learn study, to experiment with, to learn study, to experiment with, to learn about someone where you can share your about someone where you can share your about someone where you can share your your experiments, your mistakes with, your experiments, your mistakes with, your experiments, your mistakes with, your failures and learn together. This your failures and learn together. This your failures and learn together. This is really just the idea that by learning is really just the idea that by learning is really just the idea that by learning with at least one other person, you're with at least one other person, you're with at least one other person, you're going to learn better and you're going going to learn better and you're going going to learn better and you're going to learn faster. So that could be just to learn faster. So that could be just to learn faster. So that could be just one person. That could also be creating one person. That could also be creating one person. That could also be creating a small WhatsApp group with a couple of a small WhatsApp group with a couple of a small WhatsApp group with a couple of friends or a couple of colleagues where friends or a couple of colleagues where friends or a couple of colleagues where you say, "Hey, let's all experiment you say, "Hey, let's all experiment you say, "Hey, let's all experiment together around this new tool, this new together around this new tool, this new together around this new tool, this new language, whatever it is that we're language, whatever it is that we're language, whatever it is that we're curious about. Let's do that together curious about. Let's do that together curious about. Let's do that together for 3 weeks or for a month and let's for 3 weeks or for a month and let's for 3 weeks or for a month and let's create a temporary chat group that we create a temporary chat group that we create a temporary chat group that we can use to share what we learned. That's can use to share what we learned. That's can use to share what we learned. That's also learning in public. So it doesn't also learning in public. So it doesn't also learning in public. So it doesn't have to be big. It doesn't have to be have to be big. It doesn't have to be have to be big. It doesn't have to be scary. I love that you call that out scary. I love that you call that out scary. I love that you call that out because the world right now is filled because the world right now is filled because the world right now is filled with false dichotoies. Either I am with false dichotoies. Either I am with false dichotoies. Either I am completely and fully alone or I am have completely and fully alone or I am have completely and fully alone or I am have a million followers and the implication a million followers and the implication a million followers and the implication that there's nothing in between. And the

that there's nothing in between. And the that there's nothing in between. And the the book is not called medium-sized the book is not called medium-sized the book is not called medium-sized experiments or small experiments. It's experiments or small experiments. It's experiments or small experiments. It's called Tiny Experiments, which means called Tiny Experiments, which means called Tiny Experiments, which means that this could be four people in a that this could be four people in a that this could be four people in a WhatsApp. It could be you and your mom. WhatsApp. It could be you and your mom. WhatsApp. It could be you and your mom. It can be whatever. It doesn't have to It can be whatever. It doesn't have to It can be whatever. It doesn't have to be I went from being alone to launching be I went from being alone to launching be I went from being alone to launching a YouTube. Exactly. And the nice thing a YouTube. Exactly. And the nice thing a YouTube. Exactly. And the nice thing is also that with the idea of tiny is also that with the idea of tiny is also that with the idea of tiny experiments is that you can actually try experiments is that you can actually try experiments is that you can actually try those big things, but you don't have to those big things, but you don't have to those big things, but you don't have to commit to them for the rest of your commit to them for the rest of your commit to them for the rest of your lives of your life. So you mentioned lives of your life. So you mentioned lives of your life. So you mentioned YouTube and I mentioned in the book YouTube and I mentioned in the book YouTube and I mentioned in the book actually I did run an experiment around actually I did run an experiment around actually I did run an experiment around YouTube. So there was a point I think it YouTube. So there was a point I think it YouTube. So there was a point I think it was about a year and a half ago where I was about a year and a half ago where I was about a year and a half ago where I don't know why but everybody around me don't know why but everybody around me don't know why but everybody around me decided that they wanted to become a decided that they wanted to become a decided that they wanted to become a YouTuber and those were people who I YouTuber and those were people who I YouTuber and those were people who I highly respected. I love their work. I highly respected. I love their work. I highly respected. I love their work. I love the way they're they're I love love the way they're they're I love love the way they're they're I love their thinking. And so I thought, huh, their thinking. And so I thought, huh, their thinking. And so I thought, huh, all of these people I admire are all of these people I admire are all of these people I admire are starting YouTube channels. Maybe I starting YouTube channels. Maybe I starting YouTube channels. Maybe I should start a YouTube channel. And I should start a YouTube channel. And I should start a YouTube channel. And I decided to make that an experiment. So I decided to make that an experiment. So I decided to make that an experiment. So I said, I'm going to publish a weekly said, I'm going to publish a weekly said, I'm going to publish a weekly YouTube video until the end of the year.

YouTube video until the end of the year. YouTube video until the end of the year. That was I think towards September. So That was I think towards September. So That was I think towards September. So roughly 3 months. I conducted the roughly 3 months. I conducted the roughly 3 months. I conducted the experiment. I did it. Published my experiment. I did it. Published my experiment. I did it. Published my videos every week. And at the end of the videos every week. And at the end of the videos every week. And at the end of the experiment, the external signals look experiment, the external signals look experiment, the external signals look pretty good. I had quite a few pretty good. I had quite a few pretty good. I had quite a few subscribers, positive comments, quite a subscribers, positive comments, quite a subscribers, positive comments, quite a few likes. But the truth is, I actually few likes. But the truth is, I actually few likes. But the truth is, I actually did didn't enjoy producing the videos. I did didn't enjoy producing the videos. I did didn't enjoy producing the videos. I was dreading it. Every time I have to was dreading it. Every time I have to was dreading it. Every time I have to sit in front of the camera and record sit in front of the camera and record sit in front of the camera and record myself without having any feedback from myself without having any feedback from myself without having any feedback from having a conversation with someone, this having a conversation with someone, this having a conversation with someone, this just didn't feel natural to me and just didn't feel natural to me and just didn't feel natural to me and didn't feel like fun. And so I stopped didn't feel like fun. And so I stopped didn't feel like fun. And so I stopped it. And I think too often we don't allow it. And I think too often we don't allow it. And I think too often we don't allow ourselves to try something for a little ourselves to try something for a little ourselves to try something for a little while. See if we like it. And if we while. See if we like it. And if we while. See if we like it. And if we don't like it, you know what? You can don't like it, you know what? You can don't like it, you know what? You can stop. That's fine. That's completely stop. That's fine. That's completely stop. That's fine. That's completely fine. And instead of having it in the fine. And instead of having it in the fine. And instead of having it in the back of your mind that maybe I should back of your mind that maybe I should back of your mind that maybe I should start this, everybody around me is doing start this, everybody around me is doing start this, everybody around me is doing this thing. Maybe I should maybe I'm this thing. Maybe I should maybe I'm this thing. Maybe I should maybe I'm missing out. Now you know because now missing out. Now you know because now missing out. Now you know because now you tried it and you know it's not for you tried it and you know it's not for you tried it and you know it's not for you.

you. you. that that that's a moment to just pause that that that's a moment to just pause that that that's a moment to just pause and and sit in for a while because it and and sit in for a while because it and and sit in for a while because it doesn't feel like anyone gets permission doesn't feel like anyone gets permission doesn't feel like anyone gets permission to just do something else. And I I come to just do something else. And I I come to just do something else. And I I come back to my children. My my my wife has back to my children. My my my wife has back to my children. My my my wife has an MBA and she did business in a an MBA and she did business in a an MBA and she did business in a nonprofit for like 20 years. And one day nonprofit for like 20 years. And one day nonprofit for like 20 years. And one day when she was 41 or 42, she showed up and when she was 41 or 42, she showed up and when she was 41 or 42, she showed up and she says, "This isn't fun anymore. I she says, "This isn't fun anymore. I she says, "This isn't fun anymore. I think I want to become a think I want to become a think I want to become a nurse." And it shocked me. And I was nurse." And it shocked me. And I was nurse." And it shocked me. And I was like, "Well, you can't you can't do like, "Well, you can't you can't do like, "Well, you can't you can't do Yeah. Like, wait, what? Like, you Yeah. Like, wait, what? Like, you Yeah. Like, wait, what? Like, you changed everything. And they're like, changed everything. And they're like, changed everything. And they're like, well, I mean, why? Who said you can't? well, I mean, why? Who said you can't? well, I mean, why? Who said you can't? And she went back to school at 40, got a And she went back to school at 40, got a And she went back to school at 40, got a bachelor's degree in nursing. Fast bachelor's degree in nursing. Fast bachelor's degree in nursing. Fast forward 10 years later, and she's forward 10 years later, and she's forward 10 years later, and she's running the hospital. Is that her thing? running the hospital. Is that her thing? running the hospital. Is that her thing? I don't know. She could wake up tomorrow I don't know. She could wake up tomorrow I don't know. She could wake up tomorrow and tell me she wants to work in a and tell me she wants to work in a and tell me she wants to work in a lumber yard. I don't know. But I hope lumber yard. I don't know. But I hope lumber yard. I don't know. But I hope that the boys saw her modeling that she that the boys saw her modeling that she that the boys saw her modeling that she can have multiple careers. It's an can have multiple careers. It's an can have multiple careers. It's an absolute pivot. But when she did decide absolute pivot. But when she did decide absolute pivot. But when she did decide this experiment, she did it with her this experiment, she did it with her this experiment, she did it with her whole heart and discovered that it fed whole heart and discovered that it fed whole heart and discovered that it fed her spirit. Bal, when you did the her spirit. Bal, when you did the her spirit. Bal, when you did the YouTube, you listen to yourself. Like YouTube, you listen to yourself. Like YouTube, you listen to yourself. Like I'm hearing an intentionality there, a I'm hearing an intentionality there, a I'm hearing an intentionality there, a deliberate practice where you said, you deliberate practice where you said, you deliberate practice where you said, you know, they may like it, but I don't. So, know, they may like it, but I don't. So, know, they may like it, but I don't. So, I'm going to say no and I'm not going to I'm going to say no and I'm not going to I'm going to say no and I'm not going to do this anymore. I think that's really do this anymore. I think that's really do this anymore. I think that's really cool. And I like how you say taking it cool. And I like how you say taking it cool. And I like how you say taking it seriously because to me this is what seriously because to me this is what seriously because to me this is what running tiny experiments is about is running tiny experiments is about is running tiny experiments is about is that they might be tiny but for the that they might be tiny but for the that they might be tiny but for the duration of the experiment I'm taking it duration of the experiment I'm taking it duration of the experiment I'm taking it very seriously. I don't want to look

very seriously. I don't want to look very seriously. I don't want to look back feeling like that didn't work out back feeling like that didn't work out back feeling like that didn't work out because I didn't actually conduct the because I didn't actually conduct the because I didn't actually conduct the experiment. I want to actually collect experiment. I want to actually collect experiment. I want to actually collect my data. I want to pretend that almost my data. I want to pretend that almost my data. I want to pretend that almost like pretend that this is my thing for a like pretend that this is my thing for a like pretend that this is my thing for a little while and see if that's really little while and see if that's really little while and see if that's really the case or not. And so I think that's the case or not. And so I think that's the case or not. And so I think that's really that's why it's really cool when really that's why it's really cool when really that's why it's really cool when I hear people going back to school I hear people going back to school I hear people going back to school deciding to really take a new topic deciding to really take a new topic deciding to really take a new topic seriously for a little while. And again seriously for a little while. And again seriously for a little while. And again giving themselves permission to realize giving themselves permission to realize giving themselves permission to realize that that's not for them. But they did that that's not for them. But they did that that's not for them. But they did try. They took it seriously. And there's try. They took it seriously. And there's try. They took it seriously. And there's something really really cool about something really really cool about something really really cool about taking things seriously like this for a taking things seriously like this for a taking things seriously like this for a little while. Yeah. little while. Yeah. little while. Yeah. Hey friends, we're going to take a beat Hey friends, we're going to take a beat Hey friends, we're going to take a beat in this episode and pay the bills with in this episode and pay the bills with in this episode and pay the bills with our new sponsor ShareGate by Work Leap. our new sponsor ShareGate by Work Leap. our new sponsor ShareGate by Work Leap. I've got Shaylen Gimy on the line. Help I've got Shaylen Gimy on the line. Help I've got Shaylen Gimy on the line. Help me understand as companies are preparing me understand as companies are preparing me understand as companies are preparing for the end of life of Microsoft for the end of life of Microsoft for the end of life of Microsoft SharePoint 2016 and 2019. I know there's SharePoint 2016 and 2019. I know there's SharePoint 2016 and 2019. I know there's someone on the show here who's been someone on the show here who's been someone on the show here who's been listening who's got that version of listening who's got that version of listening who's got that version of SharePoint, what's some advice you would SharePoint, what's some advice you would SharePoint, what's some advice you would give them to prepare for that end of give them to prepare for that end of give them to prepare for that end of life? I think the biggest mistake is life? I think the biggest mistake is life? I think the biggest mistake is waiting for leadership to make that waiting for leadership to make that waiting for leadership to make that call. You know, if you know a migration call. You know, if you know a migration call. You know, if you know a migration is coming, start assessing and planning is coming, start assessing and planning is coming, start assessing and planning now. When that request finally comes now. When that request finally comes now. When that request finally comes down the pipeline, and you know it's down the pipeline, and you know it's down the pipeline, and you know it's going to be really quick, you'll have a going to be really quick, you'll have a going to be really quick, you'll have a game plan ready. That's where ShareGate game plan ready. That's where ShareGate game plan ready. That's where ShareGate comes in. You know, our pre-migration comes in. You know, our pre-migration comes in. You know, our pre-migration tools help you analyze your environment, tools help you analyze your environment, tools help you analyze your environment, map out dependencies, and clean up map out dependencies, and clean up map out dependencies, and clean up before the move. The sooner you get before the move. The sooner you get before the move. The sooner you get ahead of it, the smoother the transition ahead of it, the smoother the transition ahead of it, the smoother the transition will be. And if you're not sure where to

will be. And if you're not sure where to will be. And if you're not sure where to start, talk to our experts. you know, start, talk to our experts. you know, start, talk to our experts. you know, get a demo and just see how easy get a demo and just see how easy get a demo and just see how easy ShareGate makes it. The clock is ticking ShareGate makes it. The clock is ticking ShareGate makes it. The clock is ticking and the sooner you start, the better and the sooner you start, the better and the sooner you start, the better prepared you'll be. The clock is prepared you'll be. The clock is prepared you'll be. The clock is ticking. Check them out at ticking. Check them out at ticking. Check them out at sharegate.com. It's ShareGate by sharegate.com. It's ShareGate by sharegate.com. It's ShareGate by Workkele one tool that'll help you Workkele one tool that'll help you Workkele one tool that'll help you migrate faster and secure your tenant migrate faster and secure your tenant migrate faster and secure your tenant out of the box. Microsoft 365 migration out of the box. Microsoft 365 migration out of the box. Microsoft 365 migration best practices that guide you at every best practices that guide you at every best practices that guide you at every step. And thank you to Sharegate for step. And thank you to Sharegate for step. And thank you to Sharegate for being a sponsor of Hansel minutes. Check being a sponsor of Hansel minutes. Check being a sponsor of Hansel minutes. Check them out. them out. them out. sharegate.com. You have a section here. sharegate.com. You have a section here. sharegate.com. You have a section here. I I'm holding the book up for folks who I I'm holding the book up for folks who I I'm holding the book up for folks who are listening on the on the podcast. I are listening on the on the podcast. I are listening on the on the podcast. I always dogear the books and highlight always dogear the books and highlight always dogear the books and highlight and put little flags to to keep track of and put little flags to to keep track of and put little flags to to keep track of what I want to talk about. You have a what I want to talk about. You have a what I want to talk about. You have a section on power in community and you section on power in community and you section on power in community and you call out marathon runners as an example. call out marathon runners as an example. call out marathon runners as an example. And one of the things that I really like And one of the things that I really like And one of the things that I really like about this analogy is that you are about this analogy is that you are about this analogy is that you are calling out that the marathon runner has calling out that the marathon runner has calling out that the marathon runner has a team. The team could be small, but a team. The team could be small, but a team. The team could be small, but like there's the coach, there's the like there's the coach, there's the like there's the coach, there's the nutritionist, there's maybe a chef, nutritionist, there's maybe a chef, nutritionist, there's maybe a chef, depending on what level you're at. They depending on what level you're at. They depending on what level you're at. They didn't do it all by themselves. Again, didn't do it all by themselves. Again, didn't do it all by themselves. Again, it comes back to this perception that it comes back to this perception that it comes back to this perception that these tiny experiments need to be run these tiny experiments need to be run these tiny experiments need to be run entirely alone with just pure willpower entirely alone with just pure willpower entirely alone with just pure willpower that comes that comes that comes from within, I guess. But when my wife from within, I guess. But when my wife from within, I guess. But when my wife went to school at 40, we made a plan.

went to school at 40, we made a plan. went to school at 40, we made a plan. All right, I'll do dinners. You don't All right, I'll do dinners. You don't All right, I'll do dinners. You don't have anything to focus on except for have anything to focus on except for have anything to focus on except for this one thing. Just like a marathon this one thing. Just like a marathon this one thing. Just like a marathon runner, you focus on the running part runner, you focus on the running part runner, you focus on the running part and we will be your support staff. Is and we will be your support staff. Is and we will be your support staff. Is that an important part of of of tiny that an important part of of of tiny that an important part of of of tiny experiments? Finding a community to help experiments? Finding a community to help experiments? Finding a community to help you make those successful. Yeah, you make those successful. Yeah, you make those successful. Yeah, absolutely. And uh and this is how you absolutely. And uh and this is how you absolutely. And uh and this is how you can actually go from very tiny can actually go from very tiny can actually go from very tiny experiments to more ambitious ones. You experiments to more ambitious ones. You experiments to more ambitious ones. You need a support system. This is why I need a support system. This is why I need a support system. This is why I also called the book tiny experiments also called the book tiny experiments also called the book tiny experiments because I wanted people to be able to because I wanted people to be able to because I wanted people to be able to start their own experiments even if they start their own experiments even if they start their own experiments even if they didn't have an extended support system didn't have an extended support system didn't have an extended support system even if they didn't have a lot of even if they didn't have a lot of even if they didn't have a lot of financial resources a lot of time financial resources a lot of time financial resources a lot of time sometimes even not a lot of energy maybe sometimes even not a lot of energy maybe sometimes even not a lot of energy maybe you have a full-time job or the primary you have a full-time job or the primary you have a full-time job or the primary caregiver for someone. So something caregiver for someone. So something caregiver for someone. So something really tiny to start with, but if on top really tiny to start with, but if on top really tiny to start with, but if on top of that you add other human beings of that you add other human beings of that you add other human beings helping you, supporting you. Again, it helping you, supporting you. Again, it helping you, supporting you. Again, it could be one friend, it could be your could be one friend, it could be your could be one friend, it could be your spouse, it could be your siblings, it spouse, it could be your siblings, it spouse, it could be your siblings, it could be a colleague. All of a sudden, could be a colleague. All of a sudden, could be a colleague. All of a sudden, you give yourself more space to you give yourself more space to you give yourself more space to experiment. You give yourself more space experiment. You give yourself more space experiment. You give yourself more space to be playful, to make mistakes because to be playful, to make mistakes because to be playful, to make mistakes because there are fewer things for you to worry there are fewer things for you to worry there are fewer things for you to worry about. And so that's why I have the the about. And so that's why I have the the about. And so that's why I have the the chapter about learning in public because chapter about learning in public because chapter about learning in public because it is optional and I make it very clear it is optional and I make it very clear it is optional and I make it very clear you don't have to learn in public in you don't have to learn in public in you don't have to learn in public in order to run your experiments. But it order to run your experiments. But it order to run your experiments. But it does make your experiments a lot more does make your experiments a lot more does make your experiments a lot more powerful when you're actually doing that

powerful when you're actually doing that powerful when you're actually doing that as part of a community, however small it as part of a community, however small it as part of a community, however small it is. is. is. We're in a time right now where not only We're in a time right now where not only We're in a time right now where not only do we have the algorithm working against do we have the algorithm working against do we have the algorithm working against us and capitalism and healthcare and all us and capitalism and healthcare and all us and capitalism and healthcare and all these different things that are kind of these different things that are kind of these different things that are kind of taking up space. It it feels like taking up space. It it feels like taking up space. It it feels like experiments aren't aren't safe. Like I experiments aren't aren't safe. Like I experiments aren't aren't safe. Like I work at Microsoft in my day job and I work at Microsoft in my day job and I work at Microsoft in my day job and I came here because I'm diabetic and I came here because I'm diabetic and I came here because I'm diabetic and I they have really good healthcare. So they have really good healthcare. So they have really good healthcare. So everyone thinks that I came to Microsoft everyone thinks that I came to Microsoft everyone thinks that I came to Microsoft and found my purpose when I just came and found my purpose when I just came and found my purpose when I just came for insulin. But it turned out that it for insulin. But it turned out that it for insulin. But it turned out that it it worked out pretty well on on the on it worked out pretty well on on the on it worked out pretty well on on the on the back end. Um, how do the back end. Um, how do the back end. Um, how do we I'm I'm trying to understand how I we I'm I'm trying to understand how I we I'm I'm trying to understand how I can run tiny experiments when I have so can run tiny experiments when I have so can run tiny experiments when I have so little space left beyond survival. What little space left beyond survival. What little space left beyond survival. What what's the smallest what's an example of what's the smallest what's an example of what's the smallest what's an example of a tiny tiny experiment so that someone a tiny tiny experiment so that someone a tiny tiny experiment so that someone who's listening can feel safe? Yeah. Um, who's listening can feel safe? Yeah. Um, who's listening can feel safe? Yeah. Um, I'll give you one that I did very I'll give you one that I did very I'll give you one that I did very recently. So, it was during my book recently. So, it was during my book recently. So, it was during my book launch campaign and uh I went a little launch campaign and uh I went a little launch campaign and uh I went a little bit overboard with the podcast bit overboard with the podcast bit overboard with the podcast recordings. So, now it's fine that we're recordings. So, now it's fine that we're recordings. So, now it's fine that we're recording this and my schedule actually recording this and my schedule actually recording this and my schedule actually looks okay again. But at the time, I was looks okay again. But at the time, I was looks okay again. But at the time, I was sometimes back to back from 8:00 a.m. to sometimes back to back from 8:00 a.m. to sometimes back to back from 8:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m. non-stop recording, which I 8:00 p.m. non-stop recording, which I 8:00 p.m. non-stop recording, which I would not do again. I learned my lesson, would not do again. I learned my lesson, would not do again. I learned my lesson, but it's my first book and I said yes to but it's my first book and I said yes to but it's my first book and I said yes to everything. And I realized that everything. And I realized that everything. And I realized that sometimes I would basically it would be sometimes I would basically it would be sometimes I would basically it would be bedtime and I had hadn't seen the the

bedtime and I had hadn't seen the the bedtime and I had hadn't seen the the outside world and I had practically outside world and I had practically outside world and I had practically almost like not moved from my desk. So I almost like not moved from my desk. So I almost like not moved from my desk. So I decided to create a tiny experiment decided to create a tiny experiment decided to create a tiny experiment where I said I am going to take a 20 where I said I am going to take a 20 where I said I am going to take a 20 minute walk every day for the next 20 minute walk every day for the next 20 minute walk every day for the next 20 days. Doesn't matter where I go. Doesn't days. Doesn't matter where I go. Doesn't days. Doesn't matter where I go. Doesn't matter you know just this. You could matter you know just this. You could matter you know just this. You could make it even smaller and say 10 10 make it even smaller and say 10 10 make it even smaller and say 10 10 minutes. I said 20 minutes, but you minutes. I said 20 minutes, but you minutes. I said 20 minutes, but you could say 10 minutes. That's an example could say 10 minutes. That's an example could say 10 minutes. That's an example of a tiny experiment because you have an of a tiny experiment because you have an of a tiny experiment because you have an action and you have a duration. So the action and you have a duration. So the action and you have a duration. So the action here is taking a short walk. The action here is taking a short walk. The action here is taking a short walk. The duration could be 10 days, could be 20 duration could be 10 days, could be 20 duration could be 10 days, could be 20 days. And at the end of the experiment, days. And at the end of the experiment, days. And at the end of the experiment, you look back and you ask yourself, did you look back and you ask yourself, did you look back and you ask yourself, did that help? Did I actually help? Did I that help? Did I actually help? Did I that help? Did I actually help? Did I feel better? Did I sleep better? What feel better? Did I sleep better? What feel better? Did I sleep better? What kind of impact did it have on my mood? kind of impact did it have on my mood? kind of impact did it have on my mood? And this is not the measuring you would And this is not the measuring you would And this is not the measuring you would expect from a lab experiment. And that's expect from a lab experiment. And that's expect from a lab experiment. And that's not what I'm talking about here. I'm not what I'm talking about here. I'm not what I'm talking about here. I'm really talking about just listening to really talking about just listening to really talking about just listening to those signals. How does it feel? Does it those signals. How does it feel? Does it those signals. How does it feel? Does it work or not? And based on that, you can work or not? And based on that, you can work or not? And based on that, you can adjust it. Maybe it worked and just adjust it. Maybe it worked and just adjust it. Maybe it worked and just maybe keep going. Actually, just keeping maybe keep going. Actually, just keeping maybe keep going. Actually, just keeping going with an experiment is a completely going with an experiment is a completely going with an experiment is a completely valid option. You don't have to go valid option. You don't have to go valid option. You don't have to go bigger. You don't have to be more bigger. You don't have to be more bigger. You don't have to be more ambitious with it. If that's working for ambitious with it. If that's working for ambitious with it. If that's working for you, just keep going. Maybe you want to you, just keep going. Maybe you want to you, just keep going. Maybe you want to tweak it. So maybe you've been taking tweak it. So maybe you've been taking tweak it. So maybe you've been taking your to your walks in the evening and your to your walks in the evening and your to your walks in the evening and but you were already very tired and you but you were already very tired and you but you were already very tired and you say actually let me do them in the say actually let me do them in the say actually let me do them in the morning. I'm going to try that for the morning. I'm going to try that for the morning. I'm going to try that for the next cycle. Or maybe that's not so next cycle. Or maybe that's not so next cycle. Or maybe that's not so helpful for you and that's okay and you helpful for you and that's okay and you helpful for you and that's okay and you can try something else. Maybe you need

can try something else. Maybe you need can try something else. Maybe you need stretching instead of walking. Maybe stretching instead of walking. Maybe stretching instead of walking. Maybe that's a form of body movement that that's a form of body movement that that's a form of body movement that feels more comfortable for you, that feels more comfortable for you, that feels more comfortable for you, that feels more doable and that you can do at feels more doable and that you can do at feels more doable and that you can do at any time. So that's what I mean by tiny any time. So that's what I mean by tiny any time. So that's what I mean by tiny experiments. It could be experimenting experiments. It could be experimenting experiments. It could be experimenting with the kind of food you're eating. It with the kind of food you're eating. It with the kind of food you're eating. It could be experimenting with not touching could be experimenting with not touching could be experimenting with not touching your phone for the first 15 minutes your phone for the first 15 minutes your phone for the first 15 minutes every morning. I'm just saying for I'm every morning. I'm just saying for I'm every morning. I'm just saying for I'm not allowed to make myself a coffee, go not allowed to make myself a coffee, go not allowed to make myself a coffee, go and shower. I cannot check my phone and shower. I cannot check my phone and shower. I cannot check my phone while I'm still in bed. That's a tiny while I'm still in bed. That's a tiny while I'm still in bed. That's a tiny experiment. So really anything that you experiment. So really anything that you experiment. So really anything that you feel like maybe might improve your life feel like maybe might improve your life feel like maybe might improve your life but you're not 100% sure you can try for but you're not 100% sure you can try for but you're not 100% sure you can try for a short duration and make it a tiny a short duration and make it a tiny a short duration and make it a tiny experiment. Is there a path from a experiment. Is there a path from a experiment. Is there a path from a successful experiment to a a habit successful experiment to a a habit successful experiment to a a habit because I'm not a neuroscientist but I because I'm not a neuroscientist but I because I'm not a neuroscientist but I understand that there are there is understand that there are there is understand that there are there is science around how long a regular action science around how long a regular action science around how long a regular action becomes a habitual action. Yeah. So becomes a habitual action. Yeah. So becomes a habitual action. Yeah. So actually tiny experiments are a great actually tiny experiments are a great actually tiny experiments are a great gateway to discover habits that you gateway to discover habits that you gateway to discover habits that you might want to implement in your life.

might want to implement in your life. might want to implement in your life. When you think about habits and habit When you think about habits and habit When you think about habits and habit formation, something that I find formation, something that I find formation, something that I find absolutely absurd, but we're all doing absolutely absurd, but we're all doing absolutely absurd, but we're all doing is that we say, "Let me pick that new is that we say, "Let me pick that new is that we say, "Let me pick that new behavior and I'm going to commit to it behavior and I'm going to commit to it behavior and I'm going to commit to it for the rest of my life. I've never for the rest of my life. I've never for the rest of my life. I've never tried it before, but from now on I'm tried it before, but from now on I'm tried it before, but from now on I'm going to do this thing for the rest of going to do this thing for the rest of going to do this thing for the rest of my life." And very often that doesn't my life." And very often that doesn't my life." And very often that doesn't work. We fall off the bandwagon or life work. We fall off the bandwagon or life work. We fall off the bandwagon or life happens or or maybe we discover we don't happens or or maybe we discover we don't happens or or maybe we discover we don't like it and we blame ourselves because like it and we blame ourselves because like it and we blame ourselves because this is not working. We can't build the this is not working. We can't build the this is not working. We can't build the habit. So what if instead we said let me habit. So what if instead we said let me habit. So what if instead we said let me just experiment with this. Let me just just experiment with this. Let me just just experiment with this. Let me just do the thing for two weeks. Let's see if do the thing for two weeks. Let's see if do the thing for two weeks. Let's see if I like it or not. If I like it, then I I like it or not. If I like it, then I I like it or not. If I like it, then I can try to turn it into a habit, which can try to turn it into a habit, which can try to turn it into a habit, which actually the research literature is not actually the research literature is not actually the research literature is not as clear as what you would see on lots as clear as what you would see on lots as clear as what you would see on lots of blog posts. I know it says 66 days. of blog posts. I know it says 66 days. of blog posts. I know it says 66 days. That's what a lot of blog posts are That's what a lot of blog posts are That's what a lot of blog posts are saying. Um, it really actually depends saying. Um, it really actually depends saying. Um, it really actually depends on the kinds of habits. So, it can be on the kinds of habits. So, it can be on the kinds of habits. So, it can be shorter, it can be longer, it also shorter, it can be longer, it also shorter, it can be longer, it also depends on your motivation levels. It's depends on your motivation levels. It's depends on your motivation levels. It's so it's actually I know I know people so it's actually I know I know people so it's actually I know I know people like a quick shortcut of saying 66 days, like a quick shortcut of saying 66 days, like a quick shortcut of saying 66 days, but more complicated than this. That but more complicated than this. That but more complicated than this. That being said, it doesn't change the kind being said, it doesn't change the kind being said, it doesn't change the kind of like principle of what I'm talking of like principle of what I'm talking of like principle of what I'm talking about right now, which is before about right now, which is before about right now, which is before committing to a habit for the rest of committing to a habit for the rest of committing to a habit for the rest of your life, maybe try it for a shorter your life, maybe try it for a shorter your life, maybe try it for a shorter period of time and then decide if you period of time and then decide if you period of time and then decide if you want to turn it into a habit.

want to turn it into a habit. want to turn it into a habit. On the other side of habits, uh, and I'm On the other side of habits, uh, and I'm On the other side of habits, uh, and I'm on page 104 here, is procrastinating. on page 104 here, is procrastinating. on page 104 here, is procrastinating. Uh, I'm currently procrastinating on a Uh, I'm currently procrastinating on a Uh, I'm currently procrastinating on a task that is due on Friday. I'm supposed task that is due on Friday. I'm supposed task that is due on Friday. I'm supposed to give a TED talk for my local TED and to give a TED talk for my local TED and to give a TED talk for my local TED and I've got the outline and the outline has I've got the outline and the outline has I've got the outline and the outline has been at about 60% for like 3 months and been at about 60% for like 3 months and been at about 60% for like 3 months and they want to see the outline on Friday. they want to see the outline on Friday. they want to see the outline on Friday. So I'm I'm sitting here looking at the So I'm I'm sitting here looking at the So I'm I'm sitting here looking at the uh what is the heart, the head and the uh what is the heart, the head and the uh what is the heart, the head and the hand the three uh help me understand why hand the three uh help me understand why hand the three uh help me understand why neurologically I am procrastinating and neurologically I am procrastinating and neurologically I am procrastinating and why this has not become a habit so that why this has not become a habit so that why this has not become a habit so that I don't die on Friday. Yeah. I don't die on Friday. Yeah. I don't die on Friday. Yeah. Um, so from a neuroscience perspective, Um, so from a neuroscience perspective, Um, so from a neuroscience perspective, your brain is just trying to send you a your brain is just trying to send you a your brain is just trying to send you a signal that something is not quite signal that something is not quite signal that something is not quite right, but it's at a subconscious level. right, but it's at a subconscious level. right, but it's at a subconscious level. You don't know what it is, and so you You don't know what it is, and so you You don't know what it is, and so you procrastinate. And the tool I share in procrastinate. And the tool I share in procrastinate. And the tool I share in the book, the triple check, which is for the book, the triple check, which is for the book, the triple check, which is for asking your head, your heart and your asking your head, your heart and your asking your head, your heart and your hand, what might be wrong, is about hand, what might be wrong, is about hand, what might be wrong, is about figuring out in a very simple structured figuring out in a very simple structured figuring out in a very simple structured way what might be the problem. And uh way what might be the problem. And uh way what might be the problem. And uh you talked about willpower earlier and you talked about willpower earlier and you talked about willpower earlier and so it's the opposite of that. And that's so it's the opposite of that. And that's so it's the opposite of that. And that's the issue is that most of the time when the issue is that most of the time when the issue is that most of the time when we procrastinate we number one blame we procrastinate we number one blame we procrastinate we number one blame ourselves number two try to push through ourselves number two try to push through ourselves number two try to push through use willpower to try and get over that use willpower to try and get over that use willpower to try and get over that procrastination beat the procrastination procrastination beat the procrastination procrastination beat the procrastination and as we know that doesn't work. So and as we know that doesn't work. So and as we know that doesn't work. So instead, we should listen to that

instead, we should listen to that instead, we should listen to that signal. Literally have a conversation signal. Literally have a conversation signal. Literally have a conversation with your procrastination and say, "Hi, with your procrastination and say, "Hi, with your procrastination and say, "Hi, you're back. What are you trying to tell you're back. What are you trying to tell you're back. What are you trying to tell me?" And you can ask, "Is the problem me?" And you can ask, "Is the problem me?" And you can ask, "Is the problem coming from the head? Is it coming from coming from the head? Is it coming from coming from the head? Is it coming from the heart or is it coming from the the heart or is it coming from the the heart or is it coming from the hand?" So if you want, we can do it with hand?" So if you want, we can do it with hand?" So if you want, we can do it with your TED talk actually. So if the your TED talk actually. So if the your TED talk actually. So if the problem is coming from the head, it problem is coming from the head, it problem is coming from the head, it means that you're not at a rational means that you're not at a rational means that you're not at a rational level convinced that you should be level convinced that you should be level convinced that you should be working on this in the first place. And working on this in the first place. And working on this in the first place. And I don't think that's the case here, I don't think that's the case here, I don't think that's the case here, right? Like you're, you know, you should right? Like you're, you know, you should right? Like you're, you know, you should be doing that thing. Yeah, it needs to be doing that thing. Yeah, it needs to be doing that thing. Yeah, it needs to be done. I've signed up. They've got me be done. I've signed up. They've got me be done. I've signed up. They've got me on the website, so it's happening. So on the website, so it's happening. So on the website, so it's happening. So that's good. But that's always the first that's good. But that's always the first that's good. But that's always the first level because level because level because sometimes actually we we there's no sometimes actually we we there's no sometimes actually we we there's no point doing something. So, it could be a point doing something. So, it could be a point doing something. So, it could be a task that someone else put on your to-do task that someone else put on your to-do task that someone else put on your to-do list and you're actually not convinced list and you're actually not convinced list and you're actually not convinced you should be doing it. It could be a you should be doing it. It could be a you should be doing it. It could be a badly designed task. It could be a task badly designed task. It could be a task badly designed task. It could be a task that is actually not aligned with your that is actually not aligned with your that is actually not aligned with your wider priorities. And sometimes when we wider priorities. And sometimes when we wider priorities. And sometimes when we procrastinate, we don't even take the procrastinate, we don't even take the procrastinate, we don't even take the time to consider whether this should be time to consider whether this should be time to consider whether this should be done or not. So, that's always the first done or not. So, that's always the first done or not. So, that's always the first level asking the head should we do this level asking the head should we do this level asking the head should we do this or not. So, in your case, that's the or not. So, in your case, that's the or not. So, in your case, that's the case. Second, you ask the heart. The case. Second, you ask the heart. The case. Second, you ask the heart. The heart is asking so rational level yes.

heart is asking so rational level yes. heart is asking so rational level yes. emotional level. Does this sound like emotional level. Does this sound like emotional level. Does this sound like it's fun, exciting, enjoyable? When you it's fun, exciting, enjoyable? When you it's fun, exciting, enjoyable? When you think about this task, the irony is that think about this task, the irony is that think about this task, the irony is that if it were any other audience in the if it were any other audience in the if it were any other audience in the world, I could give this talk. If it was world, I could give this talk. If it was world, I could give this talk. If it was just me, I could hit record and do this just me, I could hit record and do this just me, I could hit record and do this YouTube in one take without notes and it YouTube in one take without notes and it YouTube in one take without notes and it would be great. But I'm overthinking it would be great. But I'm overthinking it would be great. But I'm overthinking it because Ted of 20 years ago had a mythos because Ted of 20 years ago had a mythos because Ted of 20 years ago had a mythos around it and now it seems like it's a around it and now it seems like it's a around it and now it seems like it's a caricature of itself. So I'm caricature of itself. So I'm caricature of itself. So I'm overthinking the the big red letters overthinking the the big red letters overthinking the the big red letters that sit behind you on the stage. Yeah. that sit behind you on the stage. Yeah. that sit behind you on the stage. Yeah. So that's interesting because to me it So that's interesting because to me it So that's interesting because to me it sounds like a mix of heart and and uh sounds like a mix of heart and and uh sounds like a mix of heart and and uh and hand. So heart is the emotional and hand. So heart is the emotional and hand. So heart is the emotional level. Is this fun? Is this exciting? Is level. Is this fun? Is this exciting? Is level. Is this fun? Is this exciting? Is this going to be enjoyable? and hand is this going to be enjoyable? and hand is this going to be enjoyable? and hand is do I have the right tools, skills, do I have the right tools, skills, do I have the right tools, skills, support, network, understanding of the support, network, understanding of the support, network, understanding of the task in order to get the task done. And task in order to get the task done. And task in order to get the task done. And so to me, I think when I listen to you, so to me, I think when I listen to you, so to me, I think when I listen to you, there's a bit of resistance at the heart there's a bit of resistance at the heart there's a bit of resistance at the heart on the heart side where maybe maybe a on the heart side where maybe maybe a on the heart side where maybe maybe a little bit of cringe of feeling like little bit of cringe of feeling like little bit of cringe of feeling like it's like that's that's not my usual it's like that's that's not my usual it's like that's that's not my usual audience. I'm not quite sure this is audience. I'm not quite sure this is audience. I'm not quite sure this is going to be as natural and fun as what I going to be as natural and fun as what I going to be as natural and fun as what I normally do with my talks. And then normally do with my talks. And then normally do with my talks. And then maybe a bit of the hand the practical maybe a bit of the hand the practical maybe a bit of the hand the practical level of feeling like because you level of feeling like because you level of feeling like because you normally that's not what you do as you normally that's not what you do as you normally that's not what you do as you said this is something you can do in said this is something you can do in said this is something you can do in your sleep normally the eyes closed and your sleep normally the eyes closed and your sleep normally the eyes closed and very easily just show up but because you very easily just show up but because you very easily just show up but because you feel like you need to tailor the content

feel like you need to tailor the content feel like you need to tailor the content to this new audience this is new and to this new audience this is new and to this new audience this is new and you're lacking the the hand the you're lacking the the hand the you're lacking the the hand the practical aspect. Absolutely. Which is practical aspect. Absolutely. Which is practical aspect. Absolutely. Which is ironic because the literal next chapter ironic because the literal next chapter ironic because the literal next chapter in your book is about intentional in your book is about intentional in your book is about intentional imperfection. So you've just nailed the imperfection. So you've just nailed the imperfection. So you've just nailed the I want it to be perfect because there's I want it to be perfect because there's I want it to be perfect because there's a mythos around it, but then you come up a mythos around it, but then you come up a mythos around it, but then you come up with an example of Shondaanda Rimes with an example of Shondaanda Rimes with an example of Shondaanda Rimes being intentionally imperfect. So one being intentionally imperfect. So one being intentionally imperfect. So one perspective would be to simply do an perspective would be to simply do an perspective would be to simply do an imperfect talk and that in itself would imperfect talk and that in itself would imperfect talk and that in itself would be the right thing to do. I don't know be the right thing to do. I don't know be the right thing to do. I don't know if that's a tiny experiment, but it's if that's a tiny experiment, but it's if that's a tiny experiment, but it's certainly one I could try. Yeah, certainly one I could try. Yeah, certainly one I could try. Yeah, absolutely. And I've done that with absolutely. And I've done that with absolutely. And I've done that with public speaking where to me that was public speaking where to me that was public speaking where to me that was actually the the best kind of way of actually the the best kind of way of actually the the best kind of way of growing was to let go. Let go of having growing was to let go. Let go of having growing was to let go. Let go of having the perfect talk and also working around the perfect talk and also working around the perfect talk and also working around this resistance that I I had where I this resistance that I I had where I this resistance that I I had where I felt like I needed to have every point felt like I needed to have every point felt like I needed to have every point perfectly prepared but embracing showing perfectly prepared but embracing showing perfectly prepared but embracing showing up on stage and trusting that I know my up on stage and trusting that I know my up on stage and trusting that I know my topic well enough that I'll be able to topic well enough that I'll be able to topic well enough that I'll be able to figure it out. So that's one way to to figure it out. So that's one way to to figure it out. So that's one way to to do it. just embracing the fact that this do it. just embracing the fact that this do it. just embracing the fact that this is, you know, embracing that intentional is, you know, embracing that intentional is, you know, embracing that intentional imperfection. And another one is with imperfection. And another one is with imperfection. And another one is with the the head heart hand is that you can the the head heart hand is that you can the the head heart hand is that you can also decide to address them one by one.

also decide to address them one by one. also decide to address them one by one. And so, for example, if it's not fun, And so, for example, if it's not fun, And so, for example, if it's not fun, making it fun by maybe grabbing a friend making it fun by maybe grabbing a friend making it fun by maybe grabbing a friend who's fun to work with, someone who has who's fun to work with, someone who has who's fun to work with, someone who has a bit of banter and who might even make a bit of banter and who might even make a bit of banter and who might even make fun of you a little bit and while you're fun of you a little bit and while you're fun of you a little bit and while you're working on this and doing that together. working on this and doing that together. working on this and doing that together. And on the practical level, maybe just And on the practical level, maybe just And on the practical level, maybe just also reaching out to a friend who's done also reaching out to a friend who's done also reaching out to a friend who's done a TED talk and asking them for the two a TED talk and asking them for the two a TED talk and asking them for the two key things they think are actually key things they think are actually key things they think are actually important, not everything you're important, not everything you're important, not everything you're overthinking. What they would recommend, overthinking. What they would recommend, overthinking. What they would recommend, the only two things, and if you get the only two things, and if you get the only two things, and if you get those two things right, then those two things right, then those two things right, then everything's going to be okay. Yeah. everything's going to be okay. Yeah. everything's going to be okay. Yeah. What I'm what I love about the book and What I'm what I love about the book and What I'm what I love about the book and about talking to you is that there's an about talking to you is that there's an about talking to you is that there's an intentionality and a deliberateness to intentionality and a deliberateness to intentionality and a deliberateness to it where if you do nothing that is a it where if you do nothing that is a it where if you do nothing that is a decision. Yes. And and and the results decision. Yes. And and and the results decision. Yes. And and and the results of that decision are accepting the of that decision are accepting the of that decision are accepting the defaults then we'll see what will happen defaults then we'll see what will happen defaults then we'll see what will happen and that is a choice that you made. But and that is a choice that you made. But and that is a choice that you made. But with a tiny experiment, you are taking with a tiny experiment, you are taking with a tiny experiment, you are taking charge of even the smallest thing charge of even the smallest thing charge of even the smallest thing intentionally running an experiment and intentionally running an experiment and intentionally running an experiment and consciously if not scientifically consciously if not scientifically consciously if not scientifically consciously measuring it at the end and consciously measuring it at the end and consciously measuring it at the end and going, you know, drinking water in the going, you know, drinking water in the going, you know, drinking water in the morning and not touching my phone is morning and not touching my phone is morning and not touching my phone is better than drinking soda in the morning better than drinking soda in the morning better than drinking soda in the morning and touching my phone or whatever your and touching my phone or whatever your and touching my phone or whatever your experiment may be. Yes, exactly. And uh experiment may be. Yes, exactly. And uh experiment may be. Yes, exactly. And uh and that's why kind of connecting it and that's why kind of connecting it and that's why kind of connecting it back to what we were talking about back to what we were talking about back to what we were talking about earlier in this conversation with the earlier in this conversation with the earlier in this conversation with the giant leaderboard that we're all looking giant leaderboard that we're all looking giant leaderboard that we're all looking at, it really changes your perspective at, it really changes your perspective at, it really changes your perspective on life and success in general in the on life and success in general in the on life and success in general in the sense that if everybody was just

sense that if everybody was just sense that if everybody was just conducting their own experiments, it conducting their own experiments, it conducting their own experiments, it kind of removes the social comparison kind of removes the social comparison kind of removes the social comparison that you have when everybody is climbing that you have when everybody is climbing that you have when everybody is climbing a ladder. When you experiment, you're a ladder. When you experiment, you're a ladder. When you experiment, you're working in your own sandbox with your working in your own sandbox with your working in your own sandbox with your own unique life, your own unique own unique life, your own unique own unique life, your own unique variables, your own unique variables, your own unique variables, your own unique aspirations. And failing is actually a aspirations. And failing is actually a aspirations. And failing is actually a welcome part of the process. It's not welcome part of the process. It's not welcome part of the process. It's not failure in the binary traditional sense failure in the binary traditional sense failure in the binary traditional sense of the term where you didn't reach a of the term where you didn't reach a of the term where you didn't reach a desired outcome. It's failing in the desired outcome. It's failing in the desired outcome. It's failing in the sense that your hypothesis was sense that your hypothesis was sense that your hypothesis was incorrect, but now you know. You used to incorrect, but now you know. You used to incorrect, but now you know. You used to think that this would work but it think that this would work but it think that this would work but it doesn't and now you know. So in a way doesn't and now you know. So in a way doesn't and now you know. So in a way this is a form of success also. this is a form of success also. this is a form of success also. I want to call out one last thing that I want to call out one last thing that I want to call out one last thing that struck me about the book and I I presume struck me about the book and I I presume struck me about the book and I I presume it's because you are a PhD and a it's because you are a PhD and a it's because you are a PhD and a neuroscientist but not every book has neuroscientist but not every book has neuroscientist but not every book has fully 1ifth of the book as an appendex a fully 1ifth of the book as an appendex a fully 1ifth of the book as an appendex a glossophery and a series of notes. Is glossophery and a series of notes. Is glossophery and a series of notes. Is that how your mind works or is that how that how your mind works or is that how that how your mind works or is that how your training compels you? Because your training compels you? Because your training compels you? Because that's a book in itself, just references that's a book in itself, just references that's a book in itself, just references to other books and papers. It's uh both, to other books and papers. It's uh both, to other books and papers. It's uh both, I think. Uh as a reader, I don't like it I think. Uh as a reader, I don't like it I think. Uh as a reader, I don't like it when people make claims and then I when people make claims and then I when people make claims and then I struggle to find the corresponding struggle to find the corresponding struggle to find the corresponding research paper and I have to do all of research paper and I have to do all of research paper and I have to do all of the work of being on Google Scholar and the work of being on Google Scholar and the work of being on Google Scholar and figuring out what is that study they're

figuring out what is that study they're figuring out what is that study they're basing the entire chapter on. and I basing the entire chapter on. and I basing the entire chapter on. and I don't know where the study is. So don't know where the study is. So don't know where the study is. So there's at a more personal level I'm there's at a more personal level I'm there's at a more personal level I'm trying to treat the readers the way I trying to treat the readers the way I trying to treat the readers the way I like to be treated as a reader and then like to be treated as a reader and then like to be treated as a reader and then there is my scientific training where I there is my scientific training where I there is my scientific training where I almost feel compelled to provide those almost feel compelled to provide those almost feel compelled to provide those references because it would almost feel references because it would almost feel references because it would almost feel unethical not to actually provide them. unethical not to actually provide them. unethical not to actually provide them. I I'm so used to writing research papers I I'm so used to writing research papers I I'm so used to writing research papers where whenever you say something you where whenever you say something you where whenever you say something you attribute the the idea to the original attribute the the idea to the original attribute the the idea to the original researcher who did the work conducting researcher who did the work conducting researcher who did the work conducting the conducted the study. And so claiming the conducted the study. And so claiming the conducted the study. And so claiming that idea as mine that idea as mine that idea as mine without giving the the name of the the without giving the the name of the the without giving the the name of the the the research team that actually produced the research team that actually produced the research team that actually produced the research paper would feel unethical the research paper would feel unethical the research paper would feel unethical to me. M well it is it is noticed and to me. M well it is it is noticed and to me. M well it is it is noticed and appreciated and it is always delightful appreciated and it is always delightful appreciated and it is always delightful when a book is isn't just a bunch of when a book is isn't just a bunch of when a book is isn't just a bunch of opinions and a bunch of declarative opinions and a bunch of declarative opinions and a bunch of declarative statements and when you go in the back statements and when you go in the back statements and when you go in the back there's another whole book which is there's another whole book which is there's another whole book which is books that I can go and learn about and books that I can go and learn about and books that I can go and learn about and papers that I can go and read and I just papers that I can go and read and I just papers that I can go and read and I just found that to be very joyful and then as found that to be very joyful and then as found that to be very joyful and then as we reach the end of our podcast here I we reach the end of our podcast here I we reach the end of our podcast here I want to note also that there's a section want to note also that there's a section want to note also that there's a section at the very end where you point out that at the very end where you point out that at the very end where you point out that the title of the book changed three the title of the book changed three the title of the book changed three times so that the book itself was an times so that the book itself was an times so that the book itself was an experiment. Would you mind sharing maybe experiment. Would you mind sharing maybe experiment. Would you mind sharing maybe one or two of the titles that did not one or two of the titles that did not one or two of the titles that did not make it like what is better than tiny make it like what is better than tiny make it like what is better than tiny experiments as a title of a book? Yeah, experiments as a title of a book? Yeah, experiments as a title of a book? Yeah, the original title was liinal minds and

the original title was liinal minds and the original title was liinal minds and uh the reason why it was called like uh the reason why it was called like uh the reason why it was called like that was because I wanted to write a that was because I wanted to write a that was because I wanted to write a book about embracing uncertainty, being book about embracing uncertainty, being book about embracing uncertainty, being comfortable in spaces of transition. comfortable in spaces of transition. comfortable in spaces of transition. The the main problem was that a lot of The the main problem was that a lot of The the main problem was that a lot of people don't know what liinal means and people don't know what liinal means and people don't know what liinal means and also it gave the wrong vibes. It sounded also it gave the wrong vibes. It sounded also it gave the wrong vibes. It sounded overly overly overly intellectual and uh yeah it just didn't intellectual and uh yeah it just didn't intellectual and uh yeah it just didn't work. It generally didn't work and uh I work. It generally didn't work and uh I work. It generally didn't work and uh I tested it. I tested it first in a very tested it. I tested it first in a very tested it. I tested it first in a very casual way in conversations and the casual way in conversations and the casual way in conversations and the reaction was always the same. People reaction was always the same. People reaction was always the same. People frowning and looking at me being like frowning and looking at me being like frowning and looking at me being like let me what? What are you talking about? let me what? What are you talking about? let me what? What are you talking about? Uh yeah, and that's not the reaction you Uh yeah, and that's not the reaction you Uh yeah, and that's not the reaction you want to have when you tell people about want to have when you tell people about want to have when you tell people about your book. So, uh that was number one. your book. So, uh that was number one. your book. So, uh that was number one. And then, And then, And then, um oh gosh, I'm blanking. What was the um oh gosh, I'm blanking. What was the um oh gosh, I'm blanking. What was the second one? It was shortlived, but there second one? It was shortlived, but there second one? It was shortlived, but there was a second one. I don't remember the was a second one. I don't remember the was a second one. I don't remember the second one, but that one I remember what second one, but that one I remember what second one, but that one I remember what the problem was is that it sounded the problem was is that it sounded the problem was is that it sounded overly cheesy self-help type of like overly cheesy self-help type of like overly cheesy self-help type of like Right. also Right. also Right. also uh which is a category and which I know uh which is a category and which I know uh which is a category and which I know a lot of people find helpful but I a lot of people find helpful but I a lot of people find helpful but I really wanted to try to find a title really wanted to try to find a title really wanted to try to find a title that reflected the content of the book that reflected the content of the book that reflected the content of the book and I'm really happy with what I landed and I'm really happy with what I landed and I'm really happy with what I landed on. Yeah. Well, I think we are as well.

on. Yeah. Well, I think we are as well. on. Yeah. Well, I think we are as well. It's it's it's a lovely book. Um, I also It's it's it's a lovely book. Um, I also It's it's it's a lovely book. Um, I also want to call out the the praise and the want to call out the the praise and the want to call out the the praise and the and the and the the uh the quotes you and the and the the uh the quotes you and the and the the uh the quotes you got from different people are not just got from different people are not just got from different people are not just diffusive, but one of them that stuck diffusive, but one of them that stuck diffusive, but one of them that stuck out with me that I'm going to just read out with me that I'm going to just read out with me that I'm going to just read because I feel like it would be one that because I feel like it would be one that because I feel like it would be one that I would say is that I love this I would say is that I love this I would say is that I love this profound, practical, and generous book. profound, practical, and generous book. profound, practical, and generous book. It is a generous book and you've been It is a generous book and you've been It is a generous book and you've been very, very generous with your time. very, very generous with your time. very, very generous with your time. Thank you so much for spending some with Thank you so much for spending some with Thank you so much for spending some with me. Thank you so much for having me. me. Thank you so much for having me. me. Thank you so much for having me. This has been another episode of Hansel This has been another episode of Hansel This has been another episode of Hansel Minutes. We have been chatting with Dr. Minutes. We have been chatting with Dr. Minutes. We have been chatting with Dr. Annor Lov. You can check her out at Nest Annor Lov. You can check her out at Nest Annor Lov. You can check her out at Nest Labs. You can get tiny experiments Labs. You can get tiny experiments Labs. You can get tiny experiments everywhere that you can find books. And everywhere that you can find books. And everywhere that you can find books. And I encourage you to get the hard copy, I encourage you to get the hard copy, I encourage you to get the hard copy, which is what I picked up. And we'll see which is what I picked up. And we'll see which is what I picked up. And we'll see you again next week.