The Past Still Boots with the Interim Computing Museum's Stephen Jones

Hey friends, you probably knew that text Hey friends, you probably knew that text control is a powerful library for control is a powerful library for control is a powerful library for document editing and PDF generation. But document editing and PDF generation. But document editing and PDF generation. But did you also know that they're a strong did you also know that they're a strong did you also know that they're a strong supporter of the developer community and supporter of the developer community and supporter of the developer community and it's part of their mission to build and it's part of their mission to build and it's part of their mission to build and support a strong community by being support a strong community by being support a strong community by being present, by listening to users, and by present, by listening to users, and by present, by listening to users, and by sharing knowledge at conferences across sharing knowledge at conferences across sharing knowledge at conferences across Europe and the United States. If you're Europe and the United States. If you're Europe and the United States. If you're heading to a conference soon, maybe heading to a conference soon, maybe heading to a conference soon, maybe check if text control will be there. check if text control will be there. check if text control will be there. Stop by and say hi. You'll find their Stop by and say hi. You'll find their Stop by and say hi. You'll find their full conference calendar at full conference calendar at full conference calendar at textcontrol.com. textcontrol.com. textcontrol.com. That's textcontrol.com. Hi friends, I'm Scott Hansselman. This Hi friends, I'm Scott Hansselman. This is another episode of Hansel Minutes. is another episode of Hansel Minutes. is another episode of Hansel Minutes. Today I have the distinct pleasure of Today I have the distinct pleasure of Today I have the distinct pleasure of chatting with Steven Jones, former chatting with Steven Jones, former chatting with Steven Jones, former senior engineering manager at Living senior engineering manager at Living senior engineering manager at Living Computer Museum and now at Interim Computer Museum and now at Interim Computer Museum and now at Interim Computer Museum. How are you? Computer Museum. How are you? Computer Museum. How are you? >> I'm doing fine, thanks Scott. >> I'm doing fine, thanks Scott. >> I'm doing fine, thanks Scott. >> This is great. We got to meet each other >> This is great. We got to meet each other >> This is great. We got to meet each other in person at the first time at the in person at the first time at the in person at the first time at the Portland Retro Gaming Expo, which was Portland Retro Gaming Expo, which was Portland Retro Gaming Expo, which was just a delight in Portland, Oregon every just a delight in Portland, Oregon every just a delight in Portland, Oregon every year. It was massive. All generations year. It was massive. All generations year. It was massive. All generations were uh were there and present. And the were uh were there and present. And the were uh were there and present. And the interim computer museum was there with a interim computer museum was there with a interim computer museum was there with a ton of hardware.

ton of hardware. ton of hardware. >> Yeah, we had uh eight tables. Actually, >> Yeah, we had uh eight tables. Actually, >> Yeah, we had uh eight tables. Actually, Hans Reutder uh invited us to come down Hans Reutder uh invited us to come down Hans Reutder uh invited us to come down to his booth, gave us eight tables, and to his booth, gave us eight tables, and to his booth, gave us eight tables, and scrambled to get a bunch of things scrambled to get a bunch of things scrambled to get a bunch of things together for it. Is that such a together for it. Is that such a together for it. Is that such a challenge though? I mean, when you're challenge though? I mean, when you're challenge though? I mean, when you're moving vintage hardware, are you afraid moving vintage hardware, are you afraid moving vintage hardware, are you afraid you're going to break something or it's you're going to break something or it's you're going to break something or it's going to get shaken up or do you just going to get shaken up or do you just going to get shaken up or do you just put it in the back of a car and do the put it in the back of a car and do the put it in the back of a car and do the best you can? best you can? best you can? >> Well, I think we did pretty good. We we >> Well, I think we did pretty good. We we >> Well, I think we did pretty good. We we used moving blankets and uh most of the used moving blankets and uh most of the used moving blankets and uh most of the things that we brought were things that we brought were things that we brought were microcomputers microcomputers microcomputers uh and you know, typically like uh and you know, typically like uh and you know, typically like Commodore 64s where hundreds of Commodore 64s where hundreds of Commodore 64s where hundreds of thousands of units were produced. Uh but thousands of units were produced. Uh but thousands of units were produced. Uh but the most fragile thing we brought was a the most fragile thing we brought was a the most fragile thing we brought was a 1970 IMLAC PDS1 and that was for uh 1970 IMLAC PDS1 and that was for uh 1970 IMLAC PDS1 and that was for uh running space war and that survived the running space war and that survived the running space war and that survived the trip. So I'm happy about that. trip. So I'm happy about that. trip. So I'm happy about that. Fantastic. So at the Living Computer Fantastic. So at the Living Computer Fantastic. So at the Living Computer Museum uh where you uh were at for many Museum uh where you uh were at for many Museum uh where you uh were at for many years uh I remember visiting uh growing years uh I remember visiting uh growing years uh I remember visiting uh growing up in Seattle and uh it was living up in Seattle and uh it was living up in Seattle and uh it was living computer museum and then later it became computer museum and then later it became computer museum and then later it became living computers museum and labs. It had living computers museum and labs. It had living computers museum and labs. It had vintage tech. had contemporary tech. Was vintage tech. had contemporary tech. Was vintage tech. had contemporary tech. Was this all part of Paul Allen's kind of this all part of Paul Allen's kind of this all part of Paul Allen's kind of collection of vintage computing hardware collection of vintage computing hardware collection of vintage computing hardware and his like habit of restoring systems?

and his like habit of restoring systems? and his like habit of restoring systems? Because I know he loved this long before Because I know he loved this long before Because I know he loved this long before he started the museum. he started the museum. he started the museum. >> That's right. This actually goes back uh >> That's right. This actually goes back uh >> That's right. This actually goes back uh to PDP planet and even before PDP planet to PDP planet and even before PDP planet to PDP planet and even before PDP planet there was a there was a there was a >> 1997 >> 1997 >> 1997 uh the first machine called the Toad one uh the first machine called the Toad one uh the first machine called the Toad one uh was brought online and and a post on uh was brought online and and a post on uh was brought online and and a post on altysis PDB10 was made in December of 97 altysis PDB10 was made in December of 97 altysis PDB10 was made in December of 97 >> to and to invite people to use this >> to and to invite people to use this >> to and to invite people to use this system and request accounts and such. Uh system and request accounts and such. Uh system and request accounts and such. Uh so there there was this idea to to have so there there was this idea to to have so there there was this idea to to have uh vintage systems remotely accessible uh vintage systems remotely accessible uh vintage systems remotely accessible for a long time. Uh and then into the for a long time. Uh and then into the for a long time. Uh and then into the PDP planet days and then finally in 2012 PDP planet days and then finally in 2012 PDP planet days and then finally in 2012 uh Bob Barnett uh and uh Robert Michaels uh Bob Barnett uh and uh Robert Michaels uh Bob Barnett uh and uh Robert Michaels uh were able to open uh what became uh were able to open uh what became uh were able to open uh what became living computers. living computers. living computers. People associate living computers with People associate living computers with People associate living computers with Paul Allen, probably because he was the Paul Allen, probably because he was the Paul Allen, probably because he was the one who had the most money and the most one who had the most money and the most one who had the most money and the most equipment, but it sounds like the equipment, but it sounds like the equipment, but it sounds like the passion for living computers in the in passion for living computers in the in passion for living computers in the in the non-proper noun way of saying it, the non-proper noun way of saying it, the non-proper noun way of saying it, computers that are actually still computers that are actually still computers that are actually still working, not broken things behind glass.

working, not broken things behind glass. working, not broken things behind glass. It it predates Paul. There's a whole It it predates Paul. There's a whole It it predates Paul. There's a whole group of people that are excited about group of people that are excited about group of people that are excited about retro computing, including myself. retro computing, including myself. retro computing, including myself. >> Absolutely. Yeah. Um, and there's been a >> Absolutely. Yeah. Um, and there's been a >> Absolutely. Yeah. Um, and there's been a number of computer museums over the number of computer museums over the number of computer museums over the years that have come and gone. Uh, most years that have come and gone. Uh, most years that have come and gone. Uh, most notably the Boston Computer Museum, notably the Boston Computer Museum, notably the Boston Computer Museum, which was actually started by Deck, uh, which was actually started by Deck, uh, which was actually started by Deck, uh, was acquired by the Computer History was acquired by the Computer History was acquired by the Computer History Museum, gosh, about 25 years or so ago, Museum, gosh, about 25 years or so ago, Museum, gosh, about 25 years or so ago, maybe maybe longer ago, actually, and maybe maybe longer ago, actually, and maybe maybe longer ago, actually, and uh, was stored at Moffett Field for a uh, was stored at Moffett Field for a uh, was stored at Moffett Field for a long time before uh, CHM got the Silicon long time before uh, CHM got the Silicon long time before uh, CHM got the Silicon Graphics building. Graphics building. Graphics building. >> Is this an uncommon thing? I mean >> Is this an uncommon thing? I mean >> Is this an uncommon thing? I mean there's you can go and see art there's you can go and see art there's you can go and see art everywhere. Every city has an art everywhere. Every city has an art everywhere. Every city has an art museum. But other than living computers museum. But other than living computers museum. But other than living computers and maybe Mim's uh museum of technology, and maybe Mim's uh museum of technology, and maybe Mim's uh museum of technology, I don't personally know of. I don't I don't personally know of. I don't I don't personally know of. I don't think about every city having its own think about every city having its own think about every city having its own computing museum. computing museum. computing museum. >> There are quite a few actually in the >> There are quite a few actually in the >> There are quite a few actually in the state of varying sizes. Uh and then and state of varying sizes. Uh and then and state of varying sizes. Uh and then and you'll come across just the the most you'll come across just the the most you'll come across just the the most amazing collections. Uh there's there's amazing collections. Uh there's there's amazing collections. Uh there's there's one in Omay which is outside of Tokyo one in Omay which is outside of Tokyo one in Omay which is outside of Tokyo that uh it's called the Micron Museum or that uh it's called the Micron Museum or that uh it's called the Micron Museum or the dream see oh what do they call it the dream see oh what do they call it the dream see oh what do they call it something about dream technology but uh something about dream technology but uh something about dream technology but uh I got to visit that last year that was I got to visit that last year that was I got to visit that last year that was amazing collection and I just had never amazing collection and I just had never amazing collection and I just had never heard of it. They're in a I think heard of it. They're in a I think heard of it. They're in a I think they're in a former MUFG Mitsubishi uh

they're in a former MUFG Mitsubishi uh they're in a former MUFG Mitsubishi uh bank building and that they crowdfunded bank building and that they crowdfunded bank building and that they crowdfunded and and uh and got and it's uh that is a and and uh and got and it's uh that is a and and uh and got and it's uh that is a pretty amazing collection. Of course, pretty amazing collection. Of course, pretty amazing collection. Of course, it's it's it's >> Japanese heavy as far as what they have, >> Japanese heavy as far as what they have, >> Japanese heavy as far as what they have, but they've got some amazing things. but they've got some amazing things. but they've got some amazing things. >> Yeah. And there's the I guess there's a >> Yeah. And there's the I guess there's a >> Yeah. And there's the I guess there's a computer history museum in Mountain computer history museum in Mountain computer history museum in Mountain View. There's one in Bosezeman, uh View. There's one in Bosezeman, uh View. There's one in Bosezeman, uh Montana. But I I feel like I'd love to Montana. But I I feel like I'd love to Montana. But I I feel like I'd love to see a world where there was one in every see a world where there was one in every see a world where there was one in every city, certainly in North America. It city, certainly in North America. It city, certainly in North America. It would be it would be glorious if any if would be it would be glorious if any if would be it would be glorious if any if everyone could have that feeling of of everyone could have that feeling of of everyone could have that feeling of of seeing these machines working 50 years seeing these machines working 50 years seeing these machines working 50 years after their first shipping. after their first shipping. after their first shipping. >> Well, I I can guarantee you there's >> Well, I I can guarantee you there's >> Well, I I can guarantee you there's probably at least 10 basements in every probably at least 10 basements in every probably at least 10 basements in every city that has a mini museum with city that has a mini museum with city that has a mini museum with running. running. running. >> That is absolutely true. And a lot of >> That is absolutely true. And a lot of >> That is absolutely true. And a lot of people have these things and they don't people have these things and they don't people have these things and they don't know what to do with them and they don't know what to do with them and they don't know what to do with them and they don't know how to get involved. know how to get involved. know how to get involved. >> Uh you know, I've got a lot of of older >> Uh you know, I've got a lot of of older >> Uh you know, I've got a lot of of older stuff. Certainly not anything as as stuff. Certainly not anything as as stuff. Certainly not anything as as wonderful as the things that are behind wonderful as the things that are behind wonderful as the things that are behind you for folks that might be seeing this you for folks that might be seeing this you for folks that might be seeing this on YouTube. Uh Stephen is in the interim on YouTube. Uh Stephen is in the interim on YouTube. Uh Stephen is in the interim computer museum right now and there's computer museum right now and there's computer museum right now and there's working machines behind him of all working machines behind him of all working machines behind him of all flavors and he was so kind enough to go flavors and he was so kind enough to go flavors and he was so kind enough to go into the office today. I'm afraid all I into the office today. I'm afraid all I into the office today. I'm afraid all I was able to do was bring my uh my little was able to do was bring my uh my little was able to do was bring my uh my little p my little Alter Mini and I've got my p my little Alter Mini and I've got my p my little Alter Mini and I've got my PDP11 from Obsolescence Guaranteed PDP11 from Obsolescence Guaranteed PDP11 from Obsolescence Guaranteed behind me. This is all I can handle. But behind me. This is all I can handle. But behind me. This is all I can handle. But uh you're right, the the basement of uh you're right, the the basement of uh you're right, the the basement of many people of a certain age uh exist many people of a certain age uh exist many people of a certain age uh exist and and ready to go and they don't know and and ready to go and they don't know and and ready to go and they don't know where to do these things, what to do where to do these things, what to do where to do these things, what to do with them. But can they make donations with them. But can they make donations with them. But can they make donations or they just do you just need cash to or they just do you just need cash to or they just do you just need cash to make museums like this work?

make museums like this work? make museums like this work? I think well in my experience especially I think well in my experience especially I think well in my experience especially with living computers uh the community with living computers uh the community with living computers uh the community is the most important aspect and is the most important aspect and is the most important aspect and >> it's not I mean there there's a lot to >> it's not I mean there there's a lot to >> it's not I mean there there's a lot to say about funding but it's really about say about funding but it's really about say about funding but it's really about the community you build around your the community you build around your the community you build around your museum and those people supporting museum and those people supporting museum and those people supporting either by volunteering or just um you either by volunteering or just um you either by volunteering or just um you know becoming members or supporting know becoming members or supporting know becoming members or supporting doing things um or and and sharing doing things um or and and sharing doing things um or and and sharing stories as well because that's that's stories as well because that's that's stories as well because that's that's really the benefit of having a community really the benefit of having a community really the benefit of having a community focused museum. focused museum. focused museum. The other thing too is that most The other thing too is that most The other thing too is that most technology museums or history museums do technology museums or history museums do technology museums or history museums do not have uh technical staff. In fact, I not have uh technical staff. In fact, I not have uh technical staff. In fact, I I found that uh many museums may have a I found that uh many museums may have a I found that uh many museums may have a cur curation team, but they tend to have cur curation team, but they tend to have cur curation team, but they tend to have uh outsourced building of exhibits uh uh outsourced building of exhibits uh uh outsourced building of exhibits uh and even bring in contractors for and even bring in contractors for and even bring in contractors for interpretation. So, it they keep the interpretation. So, it they keep the interpretation. So, it they keep the staff minimal. Uh and that was a big staff minimal. Uh and that was a big staff minimal. Uh and that was a big difference uh for living computers that difference uh for living computers that difference uh for living computers that um we had, you know, seven full-time um we had, you know, seven full-time um we had, you know, seven full-time engineers, which is just unheard of for engineers, which is just unheard of for engineers, which is just unheard of for any technical museum.

any technical museum. any technical museum. Yeah, that's a great point. Like knowing Yeah, that's a great point. Like knowing Yeah, that's a great point. Like knowing how to not just keep them running, how to not just keep them running, how to not just keep them running, whether it be replacing capacitors at whether it be replacing capacitors at whether it be replacing capacitors at the low level or whether it be at the the low level or whether it be at the the low level or whether it be at the high level of designing what is it that high level of designing what is it that high level of designing what is it that someone should see on this machine. What someone should see on this machine. What someone should see on this machine. What game should they be able to play? What game should they be able to play? What game should they be able to play? What app is going to light up a little kid's app is going to light up a little kid's app is going to light up a little kid's eyes when they see it running on one of eyes when they see it running on one of eyes when they see it running on one of these vintage machines. That does these vintage machines. That does these vintage machines. That does require effort. You can't just put them require effort. You can't just put them require effort. You can't just put them in a box behind glass and say, "Look at in a box behind glass and say, "Look at in a box behind glass and say, "Look at that old thing." It's got to be that old thing." It's got to be that old thing." It's got to be interactive. interactive. interactive. >> That's right. Yeah. when the computer is >> That's right. Yeah. when the computer is >> That's right. Yeah. when the computer is behind glass. I mean, what are we behind glass. I mean, what are we behind glass. I mean, what are we celebrating here? It's you're celebrating here? It's you're celebrating here? It's you're celebrating industrial design, which is celebrating industrial design, which is celebrating industrial design, which is great. There's a lot of great industrial great. There's a lot of great industrial great. There's a lot of great industrial design and product design that go into design and product design that go into design and product design that go into these uh machines and devices, but to these uh machines and devices, but to these uh machines and devices, but to have that the visceral uh experience have that the visceral uh experience have that the visceral uh experience whether you've had it before or you had whether you've had it before or you had whether you've had it before or you had it for the first time, you know, at a it for the first time, you know, at a it for the first time, you know, at a museum that that's really important to museum that that's really important to museum that that's really important to convey the importance of uh preserving convey the importance of uh preserving convey the importance of uh preserving uh these machines. Yeah, it's so uh these machines. Yeah, it's so uh these machines. Yeah, it's so important like restoration and you know important like restoration and you know important like restoration and you know making the the formerly white now making the the formerly white now making the the formerly white now yellowed plastic outside is not just you yellowed plastic outside is not just you yellowed plastic outside is not just you have to have interaction readiness have to have interaction readiness have to have interaction readiness >> of these vintive machines which I know >> of these vintive machines which I know >> of these vintive machines which I know that you oversaw everything from that you oversaw everything from that you oversaw everything from restoration to keeping them keeping them restoration to keeping them keeping them restoration to keeping them keeping them running. Now I had brought my kids I've running. Now I had brought my kids I've running. Now I had brought my kids I've got pictures of my kids at Living got pictures of my kids at Living got pictures of my kids at Living Computer Museum. I know that so many Computer Museum. I know that so many Computer Museum. I know that so many people in the Northwest and all over the people in the Northwest and all over the people in the Northwest and all over the world that visited living computers have world that visited living computers have world that visited living computers have pictures of their families and the pictures of their families and the pictures of their families and the excitement and that like you said that excitement and that like you said that excitement and that like you said that visceral thing but then and when it

visceral thing but then and when it visceral thing but then and when it closed operations during co it didn't closed operations during co it didn't closed operations during co it didn't just hit living computers it hit like just hit living computers it hit like just hit living computers it hit like all the kind of interactive centers all the kind of interactive centers all the kind of interactive centers whose business model was visitor access. whose business model was visitor access. whose business model was visitor access. It wasn't just rich people keeping the It wasn't just rich people keeping the It wasn't just rich people keeping the thing running. It was community as you thing running. It was community as you thing running. It was community as you point out that kept it running. point out that kept it running. point out that kept it running. >> Yeah. Yeah. It really was, you know, and >> Yeah. Yeah. It really was, you know, and >> Yeah. Yeah. It really was, you know, and one thing that LCM had going for it at one thing that LCM had going for it at one thing that LCM had going for it at that point was the remote systems that that point was the remote systems that that point was the remote systems that were part of PDP Planet originally, you were part of PDP Planet originally, you were part of PDP Planet originally, you know, predated the the opening of the know, predated the the opening of the know, predated the the opening of the museum. museum. museum. >> Those were still available online and >> Those were still available online and >> Those were still available online and people could experience the museum people could experience the museum people could experience the museum >> uh through through that. But then you >> uh through through that. But then you >> uh through through that. But then you know also think is as we came out of know also think is as we came out of know also think is as we came out of COVID all the protocols you know COVID all the protocols you know COVID all the protocols you know especially the the 20 you know late 2020 especially the the 20 you know late 2020 especially the the 20 you know late 2020 2021 2021 2021 I just hope we never have to go through I just hope we never have to go through I just hope we never have to go through that again. But it you know the hand that again. But it you know the hand that again. But it you know the hand sanit sanitizing and masks and all of sanit sanitizing and masks and all of sanit sanitizing and masks and all of that that had to be done a and limiting that that had to be done a and limiting that that had to be done a and limiting numbers of of people that could be uh numbers of of people that could be uh numbers of of people that could be uh together. It's we really live through a together. It's we really live through a together. It's we really live through a horrible experience and um you know I horrible experience and um you know I horrible experience and um you know I would say that in regards to would say that in regards to would say that in regards to how LCM had thought about reopening at how LCM had thought about reopening at how LCM had thought about reopening at that point it was very um measured uh at that point it was very um measured uh at that point it was very um measured uh at that time uh and uh of course we did we

that time uh and uh of course we did we that time uh and uh of course we did we didn't end up doing that. didn't end up doing that. didn't end up doing that. >> Yeah. And it's worth noting that there >> Yeah. And it's worth noting that there >> Yeah. And it's worth noting that there when you have a collection of art or in when you have a collection of art or in when you have a collection of art or in this in this case it is art these these this in this case it is art these these this in this case it is art these these vintage computer machines. There's the vintage computer machines. There's the vintage computer machines. There's the ones that are owned by Paul Allen's ones that are owned by Paul Allen's ones that are owned by Paul Allen's estate. There's ones that are owned by estate. There's ones that are owned by estate. There's ones that are owned by the underlying museum independent the underlying museum independent the underlying museum independent nonprofit. And then there's of course nonprofit. And then there's of course nonprofit. And then there's of course the business model which is the the business model which is the the business model which is the operational you know keeping the lights operational you know keeping the lights operational you know keeping the lights on from a month by month. And that's on from a month by month. And that's on from a month by month. And that's from the perspective of someone who from the perspective of someone who from the perspective of someone who loved the living computer museum. I was loved the living computer museum. I was loved the living computer museum. I was like why doesn't a billionaire just fix like why doesn't a billionaire just fix like why doesn't a billionaire just fix it? It's more complicated than that. And it? It's more complicated than that. And it? It's more complicated than that. And now the the the living computer museum now the the the living computer museum now the the the living computer museum is gone. Uh and that that model was not is gone. Uh and that that model was not is gone. Uh and that that model was not able to succeed. But what what is able to succeed. But what what is able to succeed. But what what is different about the interim computer different about the interim computer different about the interim computer museum which has so much of those those museum which has so much of those those museum which has so much of those those assets and how can we keep it alive? assets and how can we keep it alive? assets and how can we keep it alive? >> Well, I think the the big difference is >> Well, I think the the big difference is >> Well, I think the the big difference is again uh having this community focused again uh having this community focused again uh having this community focused and uh community supported. Um, right and uh community supported. Um, right and uh community supported. Um, right now the real the real focus is covering now the real the real focus is covering now the real the real focus is covering the lease, covering the utilities, and the lease, covering the utilities, and the lease, covering the utilities, and getting the word out, participating in, getting the word out, participating in, getting the word out, participating in, uh, the, uh, community events, uh, like uh, the, uh, community events, uh, like uh, the, uh, community events, uh, like Portland Retro Gaming Expo, and and next Portland Retro Gaming Expo, and and next Portland Retro Gaming Expo, and and next year we've got Vintage Computer Festival year we've got Vintage Computer Festival year we've got Vintage Computer Festival Pacific Northwest coming back in May, Pacific Northwest coming back in May, Pacific Northwest coming back in May, >> uh, which, uh, we're sponsoring. Uh so I >> uh, which, uh, we're sponsoring. Uh so I >> uh, which, uh, we're sponsoring. Uh so I I'm my team is being really measured in I'm my team is being really measured in I'm my team is being really measured in in regards to that. We've got um let's in regards to that. We've got um let's in regards to that. We've got um let's see as of today 356

see as of today 356 see as of today 356 uh members and sponsors and there's v uh members and sponsors and there's v uh members and sponsors and there's v various tiers for that. various tiers for that. various tiers for that. >> But we've we also just had our first um >> But we've we also just had our first um >> But we've we also just had our first um um let's see surplus quarter. So that um let's see surplus quarter. So that um let's see surplus quarter. So that three months of not having a deficit, three months of not having a deficit, three months of not having a deficit, you know, so that that's really good you know, so that that's really good you know, so that that's really good where where we're showing that, you where where we're showing that, you where where we're showing that, you know, focusing on on just preserving know, focusing on on just preserving know, focusing on on just preserving what we have with some limited space and what we have with some limited space and what we have with some limited space and and uh and having it supported by the and uh and having it supported by the and uh and having it supported by the community. That that's the trajectory community. That that's the trajectory community. That that's the trajectory we're on. When it gets to the point of we're on. When it gets to the point of we're on. When it gets to the point of whether or not there's going to be jobs whether or not there's going to be jobs whether or not there's going to be jobs or contractors, you know, that that's or contractors, you know, that that's or contractors, you know, that that's the next step. But for now, we're we're the next step. But for now, we're we're the next step. But for now, we're we're kind of we're we're on a trajectory. kind of we're we're on a trajectory. kind of we're we're on a trajectory. I should also mention that um uh I should also mention that um uh I should also mention that um uh sdf.org, which is also an organization sdf.org, which is also an organization sdf.org, which is also an organization I'm a part of and is a longunning I'm a part of and is a longunning I'm a part of and is a longunning uh community focused basically an ISP.

uh community focused basically an ISP. uh community focused basically an ISP. It started as a bulletin board system in It started as a bulletin board system in It started as a bulletin board system in 1987. 1987. 1987. uh moved to Unix in 1990 and then got on uh moved to Unix in 1990 and then got on uh moved to Unix in 1990 and then got on the internet in 1991 the internet in 1991 the internet in 1991 and it formed as a nonprofit rather than and it formed as a nonprofit rather than and it formed as a nonprofit rather than a commercial entity. So even though it a commercial entity. So even though it a commercial entity. So even though it didn't make a lot of money through the didn't make a lot of money through the didn't make a lot of money through the 90s, it was able to get to a self- 90s, it was able to get to a self- 90s, it was able to get to a self- sustaining model with through membership sustaining model with through membership sustaining model with through membership by the end of the 90s and it basically by the end of the 90s and it basically by the end of the 90s and it basically survived bomb because of that. And it's survived bomb because of that. And it's survived bomb because of that. And it's because it has such a long history, because it has such a long history, because it has such a long history, you know, it there tends to be retro you know, it there tends to be retro you know, it there tends to be retro aspects to it, but it's always been aspects to it, but it's always been aspects to it, but it's always been about the Unix platform and uh hosting about the Unix platform and uh hosting about the Unix platform and uh hosting what the community wants uh facilitating what the community wants uh facilitating what the community wants uh facilitating new ideas on this Unix platform uh new ideas on this Unix platform uh new ideas on this Unix platform uh without trying to be too retro. Mhm. without trying to be too retro. Mhm. without trying to be too retro. Mhm. >> Um if you you probably had a dialup u >> Um if you you probably had a dialup u >> Um if you you probably had a dialup u ISP account in the '9s and one of the ISP account in the '9s and one of the ISP account in the '9s and one of the options was a shell account. I mean options was a shell account. I mean options was a shell account. I mean almost every ISP had shell servers and almost every ISP had shell servers and almost every ISP had shell servers and uh sadly that kind of died out mostly uh sadly that kind of died out mostly uh sadly that kind of died out mostly because of security issues. Uh but because of security issues. Uh but because of security issues. Uh but because uh SDF's strong community around because uh SDF's strong community around because uh SDF's strong community around the Unix shell, it's that's just the the Unix shell, it's that's just the the Unix shell, it's that's just the main part of it and then we build upon main part of it and then we build upon main part of it and then we build upon that. So interim computer museum however that. So interim computer museum however that. So interim computer museum however took on the vintage remote systems that

took on the vintage remote systems that took on the vintage remote systems that SDF had had done and then had combined SDF had had done and then had combined SDF had had done and then had combined with living computers um remote systems with living computers um remote systems with living computers um remote systems and this is in a GeekWire article from and this is in a GeekWire article from and this is in a GeekWire article from last year in June uh where announcing last year in June uh where announcing last year in June uh where announcing that that had been done. So uh interim that that had been done. So uh interim that that had been done. So uh interim computer museum is a new nonprofit that computer museum is a new nonprofit that computer museum is a new nonprofit that was formed this year. we got our was formed this year. we got our was formed this year. we got our charitable status in April. Uh and uh so charitable status in April. Uh and uh so charitable status in April. Uh and uh so that that's the retro is here and SDF is that that's the retro is here and SDF is that that's the retro is here and SDF is continuing to do its its modern Unix continuing to do its its modern Unix continuing to do its its modern Unix things things things >> and and SDF is worth calling out for not >> and and SDF is worth calling out for not >> and and SDF is worth calling out for not just the services that they've provided just the services that they've provided just the services that they've provided for so very long but also these vintage for so very long but also these vintage for so very long but also these vintage systems if you want to explore them you systems if you want to explore them you systems if you want to explore them you can go to connect.sdf.org can go to connect.sdf.org can go to connect.sdf.org or and search basically SSH from your or and search basically SSH from your or and search basically SSH from your browser or if you like SSH from your browser or if you like SSH from your browser or if you like SSH from your command line into their menu and there's command line into their menu and there's command line into their menu and there's a dozen or more vintage systems that are a dozen or more vintage systems that are a dozen or more vintage systems that are living and playing up there that you can living and playing up there that you can living and playing up there that you can run. Some are simulators and some are run. Some are simulators and some are run. Some are simulators and some are are real. So if you don't have an Altter are real. So if you don't have an Altter are real. So if you don't have an Altter Mini behind you like I've do or a Mini behind you like I've do or a Mini behind you like I've do or a simulator of a PDP11, you or your kids simulator of a PDP11, you or your kids simulator of a PDP11, you or your kids or your family can go and play with or your family can go and play with or your family can go and play with that. And joining and paying as a member that. And joining and paying as a member that. And joining and paying as a member is extremely easy. Uh it's free for is extremely easy. Uh it's free for is extremely easy. Uh it's free for students. Uh and certainly even a students. Uh and certainly even a students. Uh and certainly even a lifetime membership can still only be lifetime membership can still only be lifetime membership can still only be like $36. So you can really make a big like $36. So you can really make a big like $36. So you can really make a big difference when you get involved with difference when you get involved with difference when you get involved with either SDF or or ICM. And I think I told either SDF or or ICM. And I think I told either SDF or or ICM. And I think I told you before we started recording that I you before we started recording that I you before we started recording that I signed up at the exact level for ICM.

signed up at the exact level for ICM. signed up at the exact level for ICM. And in doing that, I get permission to And in doing that, I get permission to And in doing that, I get permission to visit. And I think that's the most visit. And I think that's the most visit. And I think that's the most important thing is that if you're in or important thing is that if you're in or important thing is that if you're in or around the interim computer museum by around the interim computer museum by around the interim computer museum by becoming a member, you get to go and becoming a member, you get to go and becoming a member, you get to go and make an appointment and bring the bring make an appointment and bring the bring make an appointment and bring the bring the family and check it out. And that's the family and check it out. And that's the family and check it out. And that's gets to the point of community, right? A gets to the point of community, right? A gets to the point of community, right? A museum is nothing unless people can see museum is nothing unless people can see museum is nothing unless people can see it and touch these things. it and touch these things. it and touch these things. >> Yeah. And again, like like you said, >> Yeah. And again, like like you said, >> Yeah. And again, like like you said, that bootstrap membership, which is the that bootstrap membership, which is the that bootstrap membership, which is the bootstrap membership is $36 a year, and bootstrap membership is $36 a year, and bootstrap membership is $36 a year, and that is actually the legacy vintage that is actually the legacy vintage that is actually the legacy vintage systems program that was at SDF. systems program that was at SDF. systems program that was at SDF. >> Lovely. >> Lovely. >> Lovely. >> Uh, and that gets you access to 26 >> Uh, and that gets you access to 26 >> Uh, and that gets you access to 26 remote systems. Uh it's a mix of real remote systems. Uh it's a mix of real remote systems. Uh it's a mix of real hardware, hybrid hardware uh and uh with hardware, hybrid hardware uh and uh with hardware, hybrid hardware uh and uh with which has partial simulation and then which has partial simulation and then which has partial simulation and then full simulation full simulation full simulation and it's um oh one thing you mentioned and it's um oh one thing you mentioned and it's um oh one thing you mentioned you the PIDP11. So this is a great great you the PIDP11. So this is a great great you the PIDP11. So this is a great great example example example and and the PIDP10 is an also and and the PIDP10 is an also and and the PIDP10 is an also interesting example as well because the interesting example as well because the interesting example as well because the sheer numbers that have been produced of sheer numbers that have been produced of sheer numbers that have been produced of those uh versus how many actually were those uh versus how many actually were those uh versus how many actually were created by deck it's you know it's created by deck it's you know it's created by deck it's you know it's staggering that um Oscar has made so staggering that um Oscar has made so staggering that um Oscar has made so many I think he's over a thousand PYP10s many I think he's over a thousand PYP10s many I think he's over a thousand PYP10s and of course deck only made two 260 and of course deck only made two 260 and of course deck only made two 260 of the KA but it's if you're using these of the KA but it's if you're using these of the KA but it's if you're using these systems remotely on real hardware or

systems remotely on real hardware or systems remotely on real hardware or simulated hardware. simulated hardware. simulated hardware. Uh again the focus is the community. We Uh again the focus is the community. We Uh again the focus is the community. We have uh contrib directories and have uh contrib directories and have uh contrib directories and structures where people can write their structures where people can write their structures where people can write their own programs and share it with each own programs and share it with each own programs and share it with each other or for port a game that was you other or for port a game that was you other or for port a game that was you know only on some obscure Unix platform know only on some obscure Unix platform know only on some obscure Unix platform you know to to many other Unix you know to to many other Unix you know to to many other Unix platforms. So that that's the focus of platforms. So that that's the focus of platforms. So that that's the focus of remote access. And then as far as remote access. And then as far as remote access. And then as far as visiting is concerned, so currently visiting is concerned, so currently visiting is concerned, so currently we're open open Saturdays, Sundays and we're open open Saturdays, Sundays and we're open open Saturdays, Sundays and Mondays 10 to 4. Uh and um like you Mondays 10 to 4. Uh and um like you Mondays 10 to 4. Uh and um like you mentioned a sponsor level. Uh you know, mentioned a sponsor level. Uh you know, mentioned a sponsor level. Uh you know, you you can bring yourself or you can you you can bring yourself or you can you you can bring yourself or you can bring your family, you know, or bring bring your family, you know, or bring bring your family, you know, or bring some friends and introduce them to the some friends and introduce them to the some friends and introduce them to the museum. museum. museum. >> Hey friends, this is Scott. I want to >> Hey friends, this is Scott. I want to >> Hey friends, this is Scott. I want to thank our new sponsor, Code Rabbit. You thank our new sponsor, Code Rabbit. You thank our new sponsor, Code Rabbit. You know, we are shipping more code than know, we are shipping more code than know, we are shipping more code than ever, and that means there's more code ever, and that means there's more code ever, and that means there's more code reviews than ever. So that must mean reviews than ever. So that must mean reviews than ever. So that must mean that all these code reviews are going to that all these code reviews are going to that all these code reviews are going to slow me down. Is that right, Arvin?

slow me down. Is that right, Arvin? slow me down. Is that right, Arvin? >> Not exactly, Scott. We That's where we >> Not exactly, Scott. We That's where we >> Not exactly, Scott. We That's where we also come in. Code rabbit exactly cuts also come in. Code rabbit exactly cuts also come in. Code rabbit exactly cuts your code review time into half and your your code review time into half and your your code review time into half and your bugs into half. We give you the P bugs into half. We give you the P bugs into half. We give you the P feedback right in your PR context uh and feedback right in your PR context uh and feedback right in your PR context uh and helping your developers move faster helping your developers move faster helping your developers move faster while they are also generating code more while they are also generating code more while they are also generating code more faster. We offer one-click fixes and faster. We offer one-click fixes and faster. We offer one-click fixes and spot all the bugs and refactor issues, spot all the bugs and refactor issues, spot all the bugs and refactor issues, deliver it on your own git workflow and deliver it on your own git workflow and deliver it on your own git workflow and help you move really faster in the AI help you move really faster in the AI help you move really faster in the AI era. Code Rabbit offers free AI code era. Code Rabbit offers free AI code era. Code Rabbit offers free AI code reviews directly in your code editor, reviews directly in your code editor, reviews directly in your code editor, fix those bugs, find those defects, fix those bugs, find those defects, fix those bugs, find those defects, especially the ones that were introduced especially the ones that were introduced especially the ones that were introduced by Vibe Coding, and it all does it by Vibe Coding, and it all does it by Vibe Coding, and it all does it without breaking your flow state. So, without breaking your flow state. So, without breaking your flow state. So, you will be able to ship more code than you will be able to ship more code than you will be able to ship more code than ever. I encourage you to check it out at ever. I encourage you to check it out at ever. I encourage you to check it out at codrabbit.ai AI and sign up for a free codrabbit.ai AI and sign up for a free codrabbit.ai AI and sign up for a free trial now. How did you get involved in trial now. How did you get involved in trial now. How did you get involved in this? You don't you seem like an old this? You don't you seem like an old this? You don't you seem like an old soul, but you have a young face if I may soul, but you have a young face if I may soul, but you have a young face if I may say so. So, you're in some you're say so. So, you're in some you're say so. So, you're in some you're somewhere between 29 and something else.

somewhere between 29 and something else. somewhere between 29 and something else. And I I'm curious uh you know, how did And I I'm curious uh you know, how did And I I'm curious uh you know, how did you become like how did you get a career you become like how did you get a career you become like how did you get a career in vintage computing? >> Let's see. [laughter] >> Let's see. [laughter] >> Well, I mean, I I guess I have to blame >> Well, I mean, I I guess I have to blame >> Well, I mean, I I guess I have to blame my dad. Uh and and um because I I went my dad. Uh and and um because I I went my dad. Uh and and um because I I went to college, I went to Southern Methodist to college, I went to Southern Methodist to college, I went to Southern Methodist University and I was a classical guitar University and I was a classical guitar University and I was a classical guitar performance major. I I didn't realize performance major. I I didn't realize performance major. I I didn't realize you're of course you're running a you're of course you're running a you're of course you're running a vintage computer museum now. Makes total vintage computer museum now. Makes total vintage computer museum now. Makes total sense. sense. sense. >> And I realized pretty quick that it is >> And I realized pretty quick that it is >> And I realized pretty quick that it is really difficult, especially for really difficult, especially for really difficult, especially for classical guitar to [laughter] to do classical guitar to [laughter] to do classical guitar to [laughter] to do anything after school except for, you anything after school except for, you anything after school except for, you know, teach. If you're going to be out know, teach. If you're going to be out know, teach. If you're going to be out there performing, there is so much there performing, there is so much there performing, there is so much competition. Um viol violinists, it's competition. Um viol violinists, it's competition. Um viol violinists, it's the same sort of thing. It's just the same sort of thing. It's just the same sort of thing. It's just it's um you know, thanks to Siggoia, the it's um you know, thanks to Siggoia, the it's um you know, thanks to Siggoia, the you know, making the classical guitar a you know, making the classical guitar a you know, making the classical guitar a real classical instrument as opposed to real classical instrument as opposed to real classical instrument as opposed to just a parlor instrument. It's just a parlor instrument. It's just a parlor instrument. It's it's just it's a very difficult career, it's just it's a very difficult career, it's just it's a very difficult career, you know, unless you're just you're you know, unless you're just you're you know, unless you're just you're lucky or you're brilliant or whatever.

lucky or you're brilliant or whatever. lucky or you're brilliant or whatever. And but um I I say going back to my dad, And but um I I say going back to my dad, And but um I I say going back to my dad, um so I I grew up in a a Bell system um so I I grew up in a a Bell system um so I I grew up in a a Bell system household. Uh my dad worked for Bell household. Uh my dad worked for Bell household. Uh my dad worked for Bell Laboratories. Uh and uh my grandfather Laboratories. Uh and uh my grandfather Laboratories. Uh and uh my grandfather who was living living with us until the who was living living with us until the who was living living with us until the end of his life um had uh worked at end of his life um had uh worked at end of his life um had uh worked at Western Electric and uh retired uh and Western Electric and uh retired uh and Western Electric and uh retired uh and um my aunt and some other family members um my aunt and some other family members um my aunt and some other family members also worked in the Bell system. So what also worked in the Bell system. So what also worked in the Bell system. So what did I do after high school? I started did I do after high school? I started did I do after high school? I started pulling cable for an AT&T installer uh pulling cable for an AT&T installer uh pulling cable for an AT&T installer uh managing uh PBX's uh a private branch managing uh PBX's uh a private branch managing uh PBX's uh a private branch exchange telephone system. So, exchange telephone system. So, exchange telephone system. So, and I I always grew up with remote and I I always grew up with remote and I I always grew up with remote access. You know, in fact, we didn't access. You know, in fact, we didn't access. You know, in fact, we didn't have a computer at home. Uh, in the 80s, have a computer at home. Uh, in the 80s, have a computer at home. Uh, in the 80s, we had a terminal and that would dial in we had a terminal and that would dial in we had a terminal and that would dial in and connect to a machine and um, you and connect to a machine and um, you and connect to a machine and um, you know, my dad would let me play games in know, my dad would let me play games in know, my dad would let me play games in the in the evenings and he'd play games, the in the evenings and he'd play games, the in the evenings and he'd play games, too. But so, that's that's where I had too. But so, that's that's where I had too. But so, that's that's where I had the the Unix skill set that came from the the Unix skill set that came from the the Unix skill set that came from uh, from that.

uh, from that. uh, from that. But I would say I've always wanted to do But I would say I've always wanted to do But I would say I've always wanted to do something um particularly with PDP10s. something um particularly with PDP10s. something um particularly with PDP10s. Uh and those were just vanishing, you Uh and those were just vanishing, you Uh and those were just vanishing, you know, as soon as I was interested in know, as soon as I was interested in know, as soon as I was interested in them. It's like they just disappeared them. It's like they just disappeared them. It's like they just disappeared from the internet uh more or less in the from the internet uh more or less in the from the internet uh more or less in the early 90s. So um that that's where the early 90s. So um that that's where the early 90s. So um that that's where the interest comes from. And I was one of interest comes from. And I was one of interest comes from. And I was one of the the people that responded to the the the people that responded to the the the people that responded to the altsis PDP10 altsis PDP10 altsis PDP10 uh request for accounts on ex skeleton uh request for accounts on ex skeleton uh request for accounts on ex skeleton in 1997. And uh I still have an an in 1997. And uh I still have an an in 1997. And uh I still have an an account on that machine. So that that's account on that machine. So that that's account on that machine. So that that's really where the where where that story really where the where where that story really where the where where that story goes. goes. goes. >> As I get older and I both think about >> As I get older and I both think about >> As I get older and I both think about the AI future and about where we're the AI future and about where we're the AI future and about where we're going with computing, I also continue to going with computing, I also continue to going with computing, I also continue to look farther and farther back and I play look farther and farther back and I play look farther and farther back and I play with things like this. And I also built with things like this. And I also built with things like this. And I also built uh an Apple 1 from like 7400 series uh an Apple 1 from like 7400 series uh an Apple 1 from like 7400 series parts on like on a board parts on like on a board parts on like on a board >> and I explored some of those kits and >> and I explored some of those kits and >> and I explored some of those kits and even going back to building Ben Eaters even going back to building Ben Eaters even going back to building Ben Eaters 6502 6502 6502 uh you know from from original parts and uh you know from from original parts and uh you know from from original parts and I'm I'm realizing that more and more I I'm I'm realizing that more and more I I'm I'm realizing that more and more I think we're forgetting how to drive think we're forgetting how to drive think we're forgetting how to drive stick shift. How important do you think stick shift. How important do you think stick shift. How important do you think it is in a world of JavaScript and AI it is in a world of JavaScript and AI it is in a world of JavaScript and AI that that young people and early in that that young people and early in that that young people and early in career computing people appreciate these career computing people appreciate these career computing people appreciate these things or are we just a couple of old things or are we just a couple of old things or are we just a couple of old guys that are looking towards the past guys that are looking towards the past guys that are looking towards the past and and and well I I think you know anytime I go to

well I I think you know anytime I go to well I I think you know anytime I go to a VCF or like Portland Retro Gaming Expo a VCF or like Portland Retro Gaming Expo a VCF or like Portland Retro Gaming Expo it it just runs the gamut as far as it it just runs the gamut as far as it it just runs the gamut as far as people and the community there. I mean, people and the community there. I mean, people and the community there. I mean, you see really young kids, uh, you see really young kids, uh, you see really young kids, uh, teenagers, uh, and then you see the teenagers, uh, and then you see the teenagers, uh, and then you see the old-timers that live through it. The the old-timers that live through it. The the old-timers that live through it. The the reason why living computers is is so reason why living computers is is so reason why living computers is is so important, I think, is that you can important, I think, is that you can important, I think, is that you can convey convey convey um what these machines do as opposed to um what these machines do as opposed to um what these machines do as opposed to just appreciating their, you know, the just appreciating their, you know, the just appreciating their, you know, the aesthetic or, you know, the 70s colors aesthetic or, you know, the 70s colors aesthetic or, you know, the 70s colors or 80s design, things like that. or 80s design, things like that. or 80s design, things like that. And it's that the one thing that always And it's that the one thing that always And it's that the one thing that always has struck me, especially when you talk has struck me, especially when you talk has struck me, especially when you talk about AI, all of the things that uh the about AI, all of the things that uh the about AI, all of the things that uh the AI booms and busts that you saw out of AI booms and busts that you saw out of AI booms and busts that you saw out of Stanford and the MIT AI lab in the 60s Stanford and the MIT AI lab in the 60s Stanford and the MIT AI lab in the 60s through the 70s, through the 70s, through the 70s, um the list machine stuff that was going um the list machine stuff that was going um the list machine stuff that was going on in the early 80s and, you know, on in the early 80s and, you know, on in the early 80s and, you know, through up into the 90s and the through up into the 90s and the through up into the 90s and the connection machine, connection machine, connection machine, there were there were all these there were there were all these there were there were all these really great attempts to do things and really great attempts to do things and really great attempts to do things and and for whatever reason, and for whatever reason, and for whatever reason, you know, not it's not always the the you know, not it's not always the the you know, not it's not always the the greatest concepts or the that that win greatest concepts or the that that win greatest concepts or the that that win out. You know, there's there's I out. You know, there's there's I out. You know, there's there's I wouldn't call them losers, but there's a wouldn't call them losers, but there's a wouldn't call them losers, but there's a lot of great things that get sidelined.

lot of great things that get sidelined. lot of great things that get sidelined. And you know now we have um so many And you know now we have um so many And you know now we have um so many tools you know that that make retro tools you know that that make retro tools you know that that make retro computing easy like your your Alter 8800 computing easy like your your Alter 8800 computing easy like your your Alter 8800 right there. I mean you just plugged it right there. I mean you just plugged it right there. I mean you just plugged it in and suddenly it's doing Pong. It's in and suddenly it's doing Pong. It's in and suddenly it's doing Pong. It's like if that if you tried that in 75 or like if that if you tried that in 75 or like if that if you tried that in 75 or 76 that would have been like you know 15 76 that would have been like you know 15 76 that would have been like you know 15 minutes. minutes. minutes. >> 15 minutes of flipping switches just to >> 15 minutes of flipping switches just to >> 15 minutes of flipping switches just to get the boot loader going. Yeah. get the boot loader going. Yeah. get the boot loader going. Yeah. >> Minimum. Yeah. Yeah. you know, and >> Minimum. Yeah. Yeah. you know, and >> Minimum. Yeah. Yeah. you know, and you're teletype chugging away at 10 you're teletype chugging away at 10 you're teletype chugging away at 10 characters per second loading a paper characters per second loading a paper characters per second loading a paper tape. It's um, you know, you just had to tape. It's um, you know, you just had to tape. It's um, you know, you just had to flip a switch and it's like, oh, flip a switch and it's like, oh, flip a switch and it's like, oh, >> I did have all the things like I did >> I did have all the things like I did >> I did have all the things like I did have the bootloader pre-done. But you're have the bootloader pre-done. But you're have the bootloader pre-done. But you're absolutely right. We're getting to absolutely right. We're getting to absolutely right. We're getting to experience these things and it's it's experience these things and it's it's experience these things and it's it's very like cycle almost cycle perfect, very like cycle almost cycle perfect, very like cycle almost cycle perfect, but it's a simulator, not an emulator, but it's a simulator, not an emulator, but it's a simulator, not an emulator, >> but I feel like I'm there, >> but I feel like I'm there, >> but I feel like I'm there, >> but also I got to get rid of the boring >> but also I got to get rid of the boring >> but also I got to get rid of the boring bits. But I also feel like I know more bits. But I also feel like I know more bits. But I also feel like I know more about the cloud when I got like about the cloud when I got like about the cloud when I got like multitasking multitasking multitasking Unix running on it and I was like, "Oh, Unix running on it and I was like, "Oh, Unix running on it and I was like, "Oh, okay. I understand how they did it 50 okay. I understand how they did it 50 okay. I understand how they did it 50 years ago." So I'm thinking about how years ago." So I'm thinking about how years ago." So I'm thinking about how Altter got to Azure Altter got to Azure Altter got to Azure >> and how the two were connected over a >> and how the two were connected over a >> and how the two were connected over a half century.

half century. half century. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. A and you know, and that's a good point. A and you know, and that's a good point. A and you know, and that's a good point. That's a great point because, you know, That's a great point because, you know, That's a great point because, you know, we we kind of have the luxury now uh of we we kind of have the luxury now uh of we we kind of have the luxury now uh of being able to look back and spend time being able to look back and spend time being able to look back and spend time at on a lot of these things and and to at on a lot of these things and and to at on a lot of these things and and to have, you know, such large communities have, you know, such large communities have, you know, such large communities of interests of all ages, you know, of interests of all ages, you know, of interests of all ages, you know, where you can add a Wi-Fi dongle to an where you can add a Wi-Fi dongle to an where you can add a Wi-Fi dongle to an Atari 800 or, you know, it's like and Atari 800 or, you know, it's like and Atari 800 or, you know, it's like and then there's servers. So, I mean, there then there's servers. So, I mean, there then there's servers. So, I mean, there you go. There's Azure. Fujiet is a great you go. There's Azure. Fujiet is a great you go. There's Azure. Fujiet is a great example of an adapter that uh works on example of an adapter that uh works on example of an adapter that uh works on so many different platforms, but it so many different platforms, but it so many different platforms, but it provides you with, you know, ROMs, uh, provides you with, you know, ROMs, uh, provides you with, you know, ROMs, uh, community, new new software people have community, new new software people have community, new new software people have written, old software that's been written, old software that's been written, old software that's been preserved, and it it seems like just preserved, and it it seems like just preserved, and it it seems like just about every month at least, I hear a new about every month at least, I hear a new about every month at least, I hear a new story of some code that's been uncovered story of some code that's been uncovered story of some code that's been uncovered and resurrected, you know, or and resurrected, you know, or and resurrected, you know, or transferred from an old tape or thought transferred from an old tape or thought transferred from an old tape or thought to be lost mythical things. I I was to be lost mythical things. I I was to be lost mythical things. I I was wondering, have you ever read uh Steven wondering, have you ever read uh Steven wondering, have you ever read uh Steven Levy's book Hackers?

Levy's book Hackers? Levy's book Hackers? >> No. Oh, yeah. Of course. Yes. >> No. Oh, yeah. Of course. Yes. >> No. Oh, yeah. Of course. Yes. >> Okay. Yeah. So, when I read when I read >> Okay. Yeah. So, when I read when I read >> Okay. Yeah. So, when I read when I read Hackers, a lot of the things that were Hackers, a lot of the things that were Hackers, a lot of the things that were written in that book were just, you written in that book were just, you written in that book were just, you know, very mythical. And this had to do know, very mythical. And this had to do know, very mythical. And this had to do a lot with the MIT AI lab. It's like you a lot with the MIT AI lab. It's like you a lot with the MIT AI lab. It's like you could read about them. Yeah. But you you could read about them. Yeah. But you you could read about them. Yeah. But you you couldn't experience things like the the couldn't experience things like the the couldn't experience things like the the incompatible time sharing system. incompatible time sharing system. incompatible time sharing system. >> Oh, yeah. This is a 40-y old book. This >> Oh, yeah. This is a 40-y old book. This >> Oh, yeah. This is a 40-y old book. This is a 1984 book and then there was a 1990 is a 1984 book and then there was a 1990 is a 1984 book and then there was a 1990 1994 redo of this book. But it was 1994 redo of this book. But it was 1994 redo of this book. But it was Heroes of the Computer Revolution. This Heroes of the Computer Revolution. This Heroes of the Computer Revolution. This book was ahead of its time in '84 book was ahead of its time in '84 book was ahead of its time in '84 telling us about how everything went telling us about how everything went telling us about how everything went down. down. down. >> They should teach this in schools. >> They should teach this in schools. >> They should teach this in schools. >> They should. Yeah. It should be uh >> They should. Yeah. It should be uh >> They should. Yeah. It should be uh mandatory mandatory mandatory reading material. reading material. reading material. >> Yeah. But uh it's you know even in the >> Yeah. But uh it's you know even in the >> Yeah. But uh it's you know even in the 90s it was kind of a desert as far as AI 90s it was kind of a desert as far as AI 90s it was kind of a desert as far as AI labs uh work was concerned. I mean of labs uh work was concerned. I mean of labs uh work was concerned. I mean of course there's GNU Linux and things like course there's GNU Linux and things like course there's GNU Linux and things like that that GNU project which came out of that that GNU project which came out of that that GNU project which came out of MIT as well but that's on the other MIT as well but that's on the other MIT as well but that's on the other side. uh the 36-bit stuff, it was just side. uh the 36-bit stuff, it was just side. uh the 36-bit stuff, it was just kind of, you know, stuck on tapes and kind of, you know, stuck on tapes and kind of, you know, stuck on tapes and oh, sticky tapes and um disp packs and oh, sticky tapes and um disp packs and oh, sticky tapes and um disp packs and things like that. And no one had really things like that. And no one had really things like that. And no one had really had machines um to to read this stuff.

had machines um to to read this stuff. had machines um to to read this stuff. Alaso of Bitsavers has done a lot um to Alaso of Bitsavers has done a lot um to Alaso of Bitsavers has done a lot um to recover things. And then of course it recover things. And then of course it recover things. And then of course it just like I said, it seems like every just like I said, it seems like every just like I said, it seems like every month there's a new thing that's been month there's a new thing that's been month there's a new thing that's been uncovered and resurrected and uncovered and resurrected and uncovered and resurrected and reanimated. And I think it's such a reanimated. And I think it's such a reanimated. And I think it's such a great opportunity as a hobby. I love it great opportunity as a hobby. I love it great opportunity as a hobby. I love it because it's not just looking at old because it's not just looking at old because it's not just looking at old computers, but it's also dragging them computers, but it's also dragging them computers, but it's also dragging them kicking and screaming into the future. kicking and screaming into the future. kicking and screaming into the future. So like FujiET, So like FujiET, So like FujiET, >> yes, >> yes, >> yes, >> is is plugging in as a serial port into >> is is plugging in as a serial port into >> is is plugging in as a serial port into vintage computers and putting them on vintage computers and putting them on vintage computers and putting them on the internet in a way that both sides, the internet in a way that both sides, the internet in a way that both sides, meaning both sides of the interface are meaning both sides of the interface are meaning both sides of the interface are being lied to. You know, we're lying to being lied to. You know, we're lying to being lied to. You know, we're lying to the the Atari, you know, telling it it's the the Atari, you know, telling it it's the the Atari, you know, telling it it's on a modem. Yeah. on a modem. Yeah. on a modem. Yeah. >> Another great example that I love is the >> Another great example that I love is the >> Another great example that I love is the grease weasel. grease weasel. grease weasel. >> The grease weasel that allowed me to >> The grease weasel that allowed me to >> The grease weasel that allowed me to take five and a quarter inch floppy take five and a quarter inch floppy take five and a quarter inch floppy discs that I found that were in my discs that I found that were in my discs that I found that were in my garage for the last 40 years, plug them garage for the last 40 years, plug them garage for the last 40 years, plug them in over USBC, get the magnetics flux in over USBC, get the magnetics flux in over USBC, get the magnetics flux signal off of them and find out here's signal off of them and find out here's signal off of them and find out here's an assignment I was working on in 1982 an assignment I was working on in 1982 an assignment I was working on in 1982 and get those files back. Ray Aussie and get those files back. Ray Aussie and get those files back. Ray Aussie sent me some discs that were beta copies sent me some discs that were beta copies sent me some discs that were beta copies of DOS 4 that had never been released of DOS 4 that had never been released of DOS 4 that had never been released that he found in his garage. He sent me that he found in his garage. He sent me that he found in his garage. He sent me those and I was able to take them off of those and I was able to take them off of those and I was able to take them off of a of a floppy with a brand new tool like a of a floppy with a brand new tool like a of a floppy with a brand new tool like Grease Weasel. And the idea that that's Grease Weasel. And the idea that that's Grease Weasel. And the idea that that's a floppy that's 40 years old I got on a floppy that's 40 years old I got on a floppy that's 40 years old I got on eBay and that's USBC and I can plug them eBay and that's USBC and I can plug them eBay and that's USBC and I can plug them into each other and combine the best of into each other and combine the best of into each other and combine the best of now and the best of then. It's a very now and the best of then. It's a very now and the best of then. It's a very It's a very satisfying hobby to be a

It's a very satisfying hobby to be a It's a very satisfying hobby to be a digital archivist. digital archivist. digital archivist. >> I Oh, I think so. Yeah. And there's so >> I Oh, I think so. Yeah. And there's so >> I Oh, I think so. Yeah. And there's so many great tools. Um, many great tools. Um, many great tools. Um, and we have our own little software and we have our own little software and we have our own little software preservation lab. I say little, we have preservation lab. I say little, we have preservation lab. I say little, we have something like 3,000 magnetic media something like 3,000 magnetic media something like 3,000 magnetic media artifacts including um large you know artifacts including um large you know artifacts including um large you know ranging from large dispacks, ranging from large dispacks, ranging from large dispacks, multiplatter, single platter and then uh multiplatter, single platter and then uh multiplatter, single platter and then uh deck tapes and magnetic tapes and you deck tapes and magnetic tapes and you deck tapes and magnetic tapes and you know we're following um some of the know we're following um some of the know we're following um some of the techniques that Alcasel pioneered uh techniques that Alcasel pioneered uh techniques that Alcasel pioneered uh doing that you know baking tapes to to doing that you know baking tapes to to doing that you know baking tapes to to get rid of moisture reactivate get rid of moisture reactivate get rid of moisture reactivate reactivate binders that you know cause reactivate binders that you know cause reactivate binders that you know cause these things to flake. But um it's also these things to flake. But um it's also these things to flake. But um it's also you know people one question I had even you know people one question I had even you know people one question I had even at Portland Retro Gaming Expo is why at Portland Retro Gaming Expo is why at Portland Retro Gaming Expo is why interim you know are interim you know are interim you know are >> I was curious about that. Do I want to >> I was curious about that. Do I want to >> I was curious about that. Do I want to support something that's interim? support something that's interim? support something that's interim? >> Exactly. And it's like well what isn't >> Exactly. And it's like well what isn't >> Exactly. And it's like well what isn't interim? I mean, uh, you can you can say interim? I mean, uh, you can you can say interim? I mean, uh, you can you can say the Smithsonian's a permanent museum and the Smithsonian's a permanent museum and the Smithsonian's a permanent museum and it's like, okay, well, you know, for how it's like, okay, well, you know, for how it's like, okay, well, you know, for how long, you know, for the interim? So, if long, you know, for the interim? So, if long, you know, for the interim? So, if you if actually on our website, we have you if actually on our website, we have you if actually on our website, we have a little fact on the bottom on the the a little fact on the bottom on the the a little fact on the bottom on the the main page and you can read about, you main page and you can read about, you main page and you can read about, you know, why I chose that name.

know, why I chose that name. know, why I chose that name. It's uh it's basically, you know, all of It's uh it's basically, you know, all of It's uh it's basically, you know, all of this stuff is is is fleeting. I mean, this stuff is is is fleeting. I mean, this stuff is is is fleeting. I mean, it's ephemeral. it's ephemeral. it's ephemeral. uh and um a lot of data is still trapped uh and um a lot of data is still trapped uh and um a lot of data is still trapped on esotic as esoteric carriers. You on esotic as esoteric carriers. You on esotic as esoteric carriers. You know, it's just waiting to be recovered, know, it's just waiting to be recovered, know, it's just waiting to be recovered, but it it's it's also we're also in a but it it's it's also we're also in a but it it's it's also we're also in a point of time where we're really close point of time where we're really close point of time where we're really close to where all of this stuff was new. Uh to where all of this stuff was new. Uh to where all of this stuff was new. Uh and it's just slowly slowly degrading. and it's just slowly slowly degrading. and it's just slowly slowly degrading. And it's really I the name I mean I'm And it's really I the name I mean I'm And it's really I the name I mean I'm sorry if I can call it poetic but that's sorry if I can call it poetic but that's sorry if I can call it poetic but that's that's how I've I tried to express the that's how I've I tried to express the that's how I've I tried to express the urgency. urgency. urgency. >> Yeah. In in in what we're doing. >> Yeah. In in in what we're doing. >> Yeah. In in in what we're doing. >> Yeah. Everything is fleeting. Uh and >> Yeah. Everything is fleeting. Uh and >> Yeah. Everything is fleeting. Uh and everything is in motion. everything is in motion. everything is in motion. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Last thing I wanted to say though is >> Last thing I wanted to say though is >> Last thing I wanted to say though is that for those who loved and mourn and that for those who loved and mourn and that for those who loved and mourn and get whipped into a frenzy every time get whipped into a frenzy every time get whipped into a frenzy every time someone shakes their fist at the cloud someone shakes their fist at the cloud someone shakes their fist at the cloud and says ah living computers living and says ah living computers living and says ah living computers living computers. It was complicated. It's not computers. It was complicated. It's not computers. It was complicated. It's not as simple as we were as we may have as simple as we were as we may have as simple as we were as we may have believed. There's a lot of that believed. There's a lot of that believed. There's a lot of that equipment available. This was not all equipment available. This was not all equipment available. This was not all auctioned off or given away or taken auctioned off or given away or taken auctioned off or given away or taken back into someone's garage. If as I back into someone's garage. If as I back into someone's garage. If as I understand it, the vast majority of the understand it, the vast majority of the understand it, the vast majority of the of the stuff that I saw is either at the of the stuff that I saw is either at the of the stuff that I saw is either at the interim computer museum or at the Mims interim computer museum or at the Mims interim computer museum or at the Mims Museum of Technology. Is that a fair Museum of Technology. Is that a fair Museum of Technology. Is that a fair statement?

statement? statement? >> That's absolutely correct. >> That's absolutely correct. >> That's absolutely correct. You know, there was a in June of 2024, You know, there was a in June of 2024, You know, there was a in June of 2024, there was a series of articles on there was a series of articles on there was a series of articles on Geekwire Geekwire Geekwire and, you know, I I read those and I and, you know, I I read those and I and, you know, I I read those and I really felt like it was a missed really felt like it was a missed really felt like it was a missed opportunity for Geekwire to celebrate opportunity for Geekwire to celebrate opportunity for Geekwire to celebrate the community rather than just like, you the community rather than just like, you the community rather than just like, you know, shove a dagger right into their know, shove a dagger right into their know, shove a dagger right into their chest and twist it. It's um it it was chest and twist it. It's um it it was chest and twist it. It's um it it was fairly cruel because you know the public fairly cruel because you know the public fairly cruel because you know the public statement and everything that I've said statement and everything that I've said statement and everything that I've said is is out there. It's just it's been is is out there. It's just it's been is is out there. It's just it's been hard to find for a lot of people because hard to find for a lot of people because hard to find for a lot of people because of articles like uh were published in of articles like uh were published in of articles like uh were published in Geekwire. But um it it was announced Geekwire. But um it it was announced Geekwire. But um it it was announced that there was going to be a public that there was going to be a public that there was going to be a public auction and that only you know a small auction and that only you know a small auction and that only you know a small subset of items were in this subset of items were in this subset of items were in this consignment. In fact, I think it's only consignment. In fact, I think it's only consignment. In fact, I think it's only about 30 um items that were from uh LCM. about 30 um items that were from uh LCM. about 30 um items that were from uh LCM. The rest was some great space art. Uh The rest was some great space art. Uh The rest was some great space art. Uh Chesley Bonestelle and some others uh Chesley Bonestelle and some others uh Chesley Bonestelle and some others uh McCall uh there was, you know, an McCall uh there was, you know, an McCall uh there was, you know, an asteroid, space suits, Titanic menu it asteroid, space suits, Titanic menu it asteroid, space suits, Titanic menu it that and that's all on Christiey's that and that's all on Christiey's that and that's all on Christiey's website uh that were part of this uh website uh that were part of this uh website uh that were part of this uh auction. And of course, we had our auction. And of course, we had our auction. And of course, we had our direction to keep the museum intact. In direction to keep the museum intact. In direction to keep the museum intact. In fact, it was intact up until, you know, fact, it was intact up until, you know, fact, it was intact up until, you know, mid last year uh when when things were mid last year uh when when things were mid last year uh when when things were happening and and we're actually um uh happening and and we're actually um uh happening and and we're actually um uh you know, moving things out. But um

you know, moving things out. But um you know, moving things out. But um you're right uh the men's museum uh you're right uh the men's museum uh you're right uh the men's museum uh deserves to be celebrated deserves to be celebrated deserves to be celebrated uh for stepping up and uh basically uh for stepping up and uh basically uh for stepping up and uh basically taking everything including the name uh taking everything including the name uh taking everything including the name uh and they are doing that to protect the and they are doing that to protect the and they are doing that to protect the name and and the legacy of that. Uh they name and and the legacy of that. Uh they name and and the legacy of that. Uh they have a number of of really great things have a number of of really great things have a number of of really great things that people saw on public display as that people saw on public display as that people saw on public display as well as things that you know never were well as things that you know never were well as things that you know never were in the collection but never made it out. in the collection but never made it out. in the collection but never made it out. So uh I really encourage people to you So uh I really encourage people to you So uh I really encourage people to you know it's in Roswell, Georgia. It's 45 know it's in Roswell, Georgia. It's 45 know it's in Roswell, Georgia. It's 45 minutes outside of Atlanta. I've been minutes outside of Atlanta. I've been minutes outside of Atlanta. I've been there. It's great. Uh they also uh have there. It's great. Uh they also uh have there. It's great. Uh they also uh have community events as well. They've got a community events as well. They've got a community events as well. They've got a great event space and they are currently great event space and they are currently great event space and they are currently working on a 50th uh celebration for working on a 50th uh celebration for working on a 50th uh celebration for Apple which is going to open next Apple which is going to open next Apple which is going to open next spring. I think it's something like spring. I think it's something like spring. I think it's something like 25,000 square feet. I might be wrong. 25,000 square feet. I might be wrong. 25,000 square feet. I might be wrong. >> Oh my goodness. Wow. >> Oh my goodness. Wow. >> Oh my goodness. Wow. >> It's I mean it's expansive. And for us, >> It's I mean it's expansive. And for us, >> It's I mean it's expansive. And for us, you know, we we have a small subset of you know, we we have a small subset of you know, we we have a small subset of tools and remote systems, running tools and remote systems, running tools and remote systems, running hardware, things like that uh in our hardware, things like that uh in our hardware, things like that uh in our collection. uh which uh and we're just collection. uh which uh and we're just collection. uh which uh and we're just over 3,000 square feet um in Tquila.

over 3,000 square feet um in Tquila. over 3,000 square feet um in Tquila. We're about three miles from the airport We're about three miles from the airport We're about three miles from the airport from SeaTac uh south of Seattle. Um but from SeaTac uh south of Seattle. Um but from SeaTac uh south of Seattle. Um but um yeah, that that's that's right. It's um yeah, that that's that's right. It's um yeah, that that's that's right. It's um it was only a very small um it was only a very small um it was only a very small >> very small subsection. I think that the >> very small subsection. I think that the >> very small subsection. I think that the internet and when people get upset on internet and when people get upset on internet and when people get upset on social media, they would have you say social media, they would have you say social media, they would have you say that everything was gutted and thrown that everything was gutted and thrown that everything was gutted and thrown away and taken away when it exists and away and taken away when it exists and away and taken away when it exists and it's either 45 minutes outside of it's either 45 minutes outside of it's either 45 minutes outside of Atlanta or it's just a few miles away Atlanta or it's just a few miles away Atlanta or it's just a few miles away from the airport, which I think is from the airport, which I think is from the airport, which I think is really important. And if you go to really important. And if you go to really important. And if you go to icmuse, icmuse, icmuse, you become a member, you can go and you become a member, you can go and you become a member, you can go and visit. You can make an appointment, you visit. You can make an appointment, you visit. You can make an appointment, you can come and see the collection, and you can come and see the collection, and you can come and see the collection, and you can explore those online things as well. can explore those online things as well. can explore those online things as well. And it's worth noting as a Microsoft And it's worth noting as a Microsoft And it's worth noting as a Microsoft employee or maybe you're an Intel employee or maybe you're an Intel employee or maybe you're an Intel employee, maybe you're a company that's employee, maybe you're a company that's employee, maybe you're a company that's in tech that uses benevity, anything in tech that uses benevity, anything in tech that uses benevity, anything that you donate to the interim community that you donate to the interim community that you donate to the interim community computer museum, which is a nonprofit, computer museum, which is a nonprofit, computer museum, which is a nonprofit, can be doubled by your company. And that can be doubled by your company. And that can be doubled by your company. And that cannot be overstated. Isn't that fair to cannot be overstated. Isn't that fair to cannot be overstated. Isn't that fair to say? say? say? >> Yeah, absolutely. It's uh we got into >> Yeah, absolutely. It's uh we got into >> Yeah, absolutely. It's uh we got into benevity. Let's see. We uh April is when benevity. Let's see. We uh April is when benevity. Let's see. We uh April is when we got our determination and then May we we got our determination and then May we we got our determination and then May we got in benevity and put the word out and got in benevity and put the word out and got in benevity and put the word out and it just amplifies your support. You know it just amplifies your support. You know it just amplifies your support. You know if you want to support a charity uh it's if you want to support a charity uh it's if you want to support a charity uh it's a great way to it's a great way to do a great way to it's a great way to do a great way to it's a great way to do it. Um because so many of these it. Um because so many of these it. Um because so many of these companies like you said Microsoft, companies like you said Microsoft, companies like you said Microsoft, Boeing, Atta, Apple, they they all do Boeing, Atta, Apple, they they all do Boeing, Atta, Apple, they they all do matching donations. So you know you make matching donations. So you know you make matching donations. So you know you make a donation and it's going to double. Um,

a donation and it's going to double. Um, a donation and it's going to double. Um, so I appreciate that. Also, I I I wanted so I appreciate that. Also, I I I wanted so I appreciate that. Also, I I I wanted to say as well, we we have had people to say as well, we we have had people to say as well, we we have had people just knock on the door because, you just knock on the door because, you just knock on the door because, you know, we're on Google Maps now and they know, we're on Google Maps now and they know, we're on Google Maps now and they say, "Hey, I was, you know, just going say, "Hey, I was, you know, just going say, "Hey, I was, you know, just going to lunch with some friends and I saw to lunch with some friends and I saw to lunch with some friends and I saw there's a computer museum here and you there's a computer museum here and you there's a computer museum here and you know that I I'm we let them in." And of know that I I'm we let them in." And of know that I I'm we let them in." And of course, course, course, >> you let them in anyway. Well, as you as >> you let them in anyway. Well, as you as >> you let them in anyway. Well, as you as you should as a museum, we just don't you should as a museum, we just don't you should as a museum, we just don't want to flood the place. that and that's want to flood the place. that and that's want to flood the place. that and that's really the the reason why we have the really the the reason why we have the really the the reason why we have the scheduling uh is that um you know that's scheduling uh is that um you know that's scheduling uh is that um you know that's the most people we've had in here let's the most people we've had in here let's the most people we've had in here let's see 23 yes we had 23 and it was see 23 yes we had 23 and it was see 23 yes we had 23 and it was comfortable but you know it's it's it comfortable but you know it's it's it comfortable but you know it's it's it you know we want to we also want to um you know we want to we also want to um you know we want to we also want to um you know record our numbers you know try you know record our numbers you know try you know record our numbers you know try to figure out uh you know the the public to figure out uh you know the the public to figure out uh you know the the public benefit benefit benefit and and but we we are going to have a and and but we we are going to have a and and but we we are going to have a way that people can come and visit that way that people can come and visit that way that people can come and visit that as a non-member with a suggested as a non-member with a suggested as a non-member with a suggested donation, a small suggest suggested donation, a small suggest suggested donation, a small suggest suggested donation and then possible conversion donation and then possible conversion donation and then possible conversion into a membership if they're interested into a membership if they're interested into a membership if they're interested in continuing to support. So that'll be in continuing to support. So that'll be in continuing to support. So that'll be on the website under visit soon. So on the website under visit soon. So on the website under visit soon. So that's the plan.

that's the plan. that's the plan. >> Fantastic. Well, as you know, I'm a >> Fantastic. Well, as you know, I'm a >> Fantastic. Well, as you know, I'm a member and I'm going to be driving up to member and I'm going to be driving up to member and I'm going to be driving up to Seattle very soon. And on the Sunday in Seattle very soon. And on the Sunday in Seattle very soon. And on the Sunday in November, I will get on the booking and November, I will get on the booking and November, I will get on the booking and I will come and see you in person. We'll I will come and see you in person. We'll I will come and see you in person. We'll do some Tik Toks. We'll have some fun. do some Tik Toks. We'll have some fun. do some Tik Toks. We'll have some fun. And if you, my friends, who are And if you, my friends, who are And if you, my friends, who are listening or watching on YouTube or listening or watching on YouTube or listening or watching on YouTube or listening wherever you get your podcasts listening wherever you get your podcasts listening wherever you get your podcasts are a fan of the stuff that I'm doing, I are a fan of the stuff that I'm doing, I are a fan of the stuff that I'm doing, I think you should be a fan of the stuff think you should be a fan of the stuff think you should be a fan of the stuff that Stephen and the folks at the that Stephen and the folks at the that Stephen and the folks at the Interim Computer Museum are doing. Go to Interim Computer Museum are doing. Go to Interim Computer Museum are doing. Go to icmuse, icmuse, icmuse, click donate, double your donation with click donate, double your donation with click donate, double your donation with Benevity, get involved in the community. Benevity, get involved in the community. Benevity, get involved in the community. There's a lot of great stuff happening. There's a lot of great stuff happening. There's a lot of great stuff happening. Explore both ICM. Museum and sdf.org. Explore both ICM. Museum and sdf.org. Explore both ICM. Museum and sdf.org. And thank you so much, Stephen Jones, And thank you so much, Stephen Jones, And thank you so much, Stephen Jones, for spending time with me today. for spending time with me today. for spending time with me today. >> Thank you so much. I appreciate it. >> Thank you so much. I appreciate it. >> Thank you so much. I appreciate it. >> This has been another episode of Hansel >> This has been another episode of Hansel >> This has been another episode of Hansel Minutes, and we'll see you again next Minutes, and we'll see you again next Minutes, and we'll see you again next week.