Creating Tools for Thought with Andy Matuschak

hey friends and digital marketers this hey friends and digital marketers this one's for you I've got 30 seconds to one's for you I've got 30 seconds to one's for you I've got 30 seconds to tell you about Wix Studio the web tell you about Wix Studio the web tell you about Wix Studio the web platform for agencies and Enterprises so platform for agencies and Enterprises so platform for agencies and Enterprises so here are a few things you can do in 30 here are a few things you can do in 30 here are a few things you can do in 30 seconds or less when you manage projects seconds or less when you manage projects seconds or less when you manage projects on Wix Studio you can work in sync with on Wix Studio you can work in sync with on Wix Studio you can work in sync with your team on one canvas you can reuse your team on one canvas you can reuse your team on one canvas you can reuse templates widgets and sections across templates widgets and sections across templates widgets and sections across sites you can create a client kit for sites you can create a client kit for sites you can create a client kit for seamless handovers and leverage seamless handovers and leverage seamless handovers and leverage best-in-class SEO defaults across all best-in-class SEO defaults across all best-in-class SEO defaults across all your Wix sites time's up but the list your Wix sites time's up but the list your Wix sites time's up but the list keeps going step into Wick's Studio to keeps going step into Wick's Studio to keeps going step into Wick's Studio to see see see [Music] [Music] [Music] more hi I'm Scott hansome and this is more hi I'm Scott hansome and this is more hi I'm Scott hansome and this is another episode of hansome minutes today another episode of hansome minutes today another episode of hansome minutes today I'm chatting with Andy matusek he's an I'm chatting with Andy matusek he's an I'm chatting with Andy matusek he's an independent researcher who explores user independent researcher who explores user independent researcher who explores user interfaces that expand what people can interfaces that expand what people can interfaces that expand what people can think and do how are you sir I'm feeling think and do how are you sir I'm feeling think and do how are you sir I'm feeling good just uh wrapping up my my normal good just uh wrapping up my my normal good just uh wrapping up my my normal work day and um my intellectual energies work day and um my intellectual energies work day and um my intellectual energies are drained my social energies persist are drained my social energies persist are drained my social energies persist I'm excited to chat oh I like that okay I'm excited to chat oh I like that okay I'm excited to chat oh I like that okay it's good that your social energy is it's good that your social energy is it's good that your social energy is here we'll get your intellectual energy here we'll get your intellectual energy here we'll get your intellectual energy back for the for the podcast we will try back for the for the podcast we will try back for the for the podcast we will try we will try I appreciate that uh you we will try I appreciate that uh you we will try I appreciate that uh you know folks can check you out at Andy know folks can check you out at Andy know folks can check you out at Andy match.org and they can learn about your match.org and they can learn about your match.org and they can learn about your current work as well as your previous current work as well as your previous current work as well as your previous work working at Apple and then also work working at Apple and then also work working at Apple and then also leading our and D at Con Academy have leading our and D at Con Academy have leading our and D at Con Academy have you always been a person who has been you always been a person who has been you always been a person who has been thinking about how people learn or did thinking about how people learn or did thinking about how people learn or did that get sparked At Con Academy it got

that get sparked At Con Academy it got that get sparked At Con Academy it got sparked actually during my time at Apple sparked actually during my time at Apple sparked actually during my time at Apple um I had a sort of unusual childhood um I had a sort of unusual childhood um I had a sort of unusual childhood education I went to a strange school in education I went to a strange school in education I went to a strange school in St Louis called Thomas Jefferson that St Louis called Thomas Jefferson that St Louis called Thomas Jefferson that has like 70 students it's a middle and has like 70 students it's a middle and has like 70 students it's a middle and high school and um one of those places high school and um one of those places high school and um one of those places where we study Latin and Greek and the where we study Latin and Greek and the where we study Latin and Greek and the classics and very little math and math classics and very little math and math classics and very little math and math problems aside I was very moved by these problems aside I was very moved by these problems aside I was very moved by these sort of discussion in literature Centric sort of discussion in literature Centric sort of discussion in literature Centric experiences particularly as I moved into experiences particularly as I moved into experiences particularly as I moved into a stem world and I think having a a stem world and I think having a a stem world and I think having a strange educational background made it strange educational background made it strange educational background made it top of mind for me and then when I was top of mind for me and then when I was top of mind for me and then when I was at Apple I at Apple I at Apple I became fascinated with the possibilities became fascinated with the possibilities became fascinated with the possibilities of dynamic media for us to understand of dynamic media for us to understand of dynamic media for us to understand things in new ways at Apple the design things in new ways at Apple the design things in new ways at Apple the design team would print out the entire team would print out the entire team would print out the entire operating system and put it on the wall operating system and put it on the wall operating system and put it on the wall so that we could see everything at once so that we could see everything at once so that we could see everything at once and try to make sure that everything's and try to make sure that everything's and try to make sure that everything's consistent but what I found fascinating consistent but what I found fascinating consistent but what I found fascinating was that the most interesting Design was that the most interesting Design was that the most interesting Design Elements were the stuff you couldn't Elements were the stuff you couldn't Elements were the stuff you couldn't print things like inertial scrolling print things like inertial scrolling print things like inertial scrolling rubber banding and the way that um the rubber banding and the way that um the rubber banding and the way that um the parts of the system fit together in this parts of the system fit together in this parts of the system fit together in this kind of zooming user interface U kind of zooming user interface U kind of zooming user interface U favorite designs like the the favorite designs like the the favorite designs like the the measurement app and so on and so forth measurement app and so on and so forth measurement app and so on and so forth but um I came to feel that all of these but um I came to feel that all of these but um I came to feel that all of these things things things were being somewhat wasted I suppose on were being somewhat wasted I suppose on were being somewhat wasted I suppose on I guess like polish and trivia rather I guess like polish and trivia rather I guess like polish and trivia rather than problems that felt very impactful than problems that felt very impactful than problems that felt very impactful and so I I became curious about how we

and so I I became curious about how we and so I I became curious about how we might use Dynamic media to do something might use Dynamic media to do something might use Dynamic media to do something really useful and valuable and as I cast really useful and valuable and as I cast really useful and valuable and as I cast about for domains in which that might be about for domains in which that might be about for domains in which that might be relevant education was top of mind so I relevant education was top of mind so I relevant education was top of mind so I began prototyping and writing and and began prototyping and writing and and began prototyping and writing and and that's what drew the the KH Academy that's what drew the the KH Academy that's what drew the the KH Academy people to me and and eventually to them people to me and and eventually to them people to me and and eventually to them you have a a link directly on the you have a a link directly on the you have a a link directly on the homepage uh where you talk about why homepage uh where you talk about why homepage uh where you talk about why books don't work and I'm I'm visualizing books don't work and I'm I'm visualizing books don't work and I'm I'm visualizing this idea of like how you interact with this idea of like how you interact with this idea of like how you interact with books uh and how we interact with books books uh and how we interact with books books uh and how we interact with books it's very linear you know like this is it's very linear you know like this is it's very linear you know like this is the thing right we have a we live in a the thing right we have a we live in a the thing right we have a we live in a three-dimensional world we move through three-dimensional world we move through three-dimensional world we move through four-dimensional SpaceTime and books are four-dimensional SpaceTime and books are four-dimensional SpaceTime and books are how I want you to read is linear on a how I want you to read is linear on a how I want you to read is linear on a single line and the in the chapters of single line and the in the chapters of single line and the in the chapters of the order that I want I've always been the order that I want I've always been the order that I want I've always been impressed with books that start out in impressed with books that start out in impressed with books that start out in the introduction saying read this book the introduction saying read this book the introduction saying read this book any order you want explore the book and any order you want explore the book and any order you want explore the book and come back later you know as opposed to come back later you know as opposed to come back later you know as opposed to books that want this kind of um books that want this kind of um books that want this kind of um intellectual strip teas for lack of a intellectual strip teas for lack of a intellectual strip teas for lack of a better and a more appropr better and a more appropr better and a more appropr analogy uh do you find the linearity of analogy uh do you find the linearity of analogy uh do you find the linearity of books in in online media to be books in in online media to be books in in online media to be irritating one thing that's very irritating one thing that's very irritating one thing that's very interesting is that expert readers interesting is that expert readers interesting is that expert readers actually don't read linearly and so we actually don't read linearly and so we actually don't read linearly and so we have like we have these limitations of have like we have these limitations of have like we have these limitations of the medium namely that uh not just print the medium namely that uh not just print the medium namely that uh not just print but language is essentially linear um but language is essentially linear um but language is essentially linear um and this would seem to constrain the way and this would seem to constrain the way and this would seem to constrain the way that we read but in practice like a an that we read but in practice like a an that we read but in practice like a an academic a scholar will typically read academic a scholar will typically read academic a scholar will typically read very nonlinearly a common thing to do is very nonlinearly a common thing to do is very nonlinearly a common thing to do is to begin with a table of contents then to begin with a table of contents then to begin with a table of contents then to flip to the index then to read parts to flip to the index then to read parts to flip to the index then to read parts of the preface then to read the first of the preface then to read the first of the preface then to read the first and last paragraph of each chapter then

and last paragraph of each chapter then and last paragraph of each chapter then to read quickly all of a critical to read quickly all of a critical to read quickly all of a critical chapter or two flip through look at the chapter or two flip through look at the chapter or two flip through look at the figures decide which parts to read figures decide which parts to read figures decide which parts to read further and so on and so forth books further and so on and so forth books further and so on and so forth books don't make this terribly easy but they don't make this terribly easy but they don't make this terribly easy but they they do sort of support it and so it's they do sort of support it and so it's they do sort of support it and so it's interesting to contemplate New Media interesting to contemplate New Media interesting to contemplate New Media which support you know not only the kind which support you know not only the kind which support you know not only the kind of expert reading that I'm describing of expert reading that I'm describing of expert reading that I'm describing it's quite alien I think to most people it's quite alien I think to most people it's quite alien I think to most people most people are seem to be surprised to most people are seem to be surprised to most people are seem to be surprised to to hear that experts reading this way um to hear that experts reading this way um to hear that experts reading this way um but but also I guess other more but but also I guess other more but but also I guess other more cognitively aware uh Reflections on how cognitively aware uh Reflections on how cognitively aware uh Reflections on how it is that we effectively read and it is that we effectively read and it is that we effectively read and process process process information someone might be listening information someone might be listening information someone might be listening and be mentally pushing back on the idea and be mentally pushing back on the idea and be mentally pushing back on the idea of an expert reader like how do you know of an expert reader like how do you know of an expert reader like how do you know that someone is an expert are they an that someone is an expert are they an that someone is an expert are they an expert in their topic are they an expert expert in their topic are they an expert expert in their topic are they an expert at reading like which which angle are we at reading like which which angle are we at reading like which which angle are we coming at here am I an expert in my coming at here am I an expert in my coming at here am I an expert in my topic and I absorbing new information topic and I absorbing new information topic and I absorbing new information sure there there's literature on this sure there there's literature on this sure there there's literature on this and people slice it in different ways so and people slice it in different ways so and people slice it in different ways so like uh one set like uh one set like uh one set of scholarship that I'm drawing on here of scholarship that I'm drawing on here of scholarship that I'm drawing on here is ethnographic and so it's studying the is ethnographic and so it's studying the is ethnographic and so it's studying the one I'm thinking of is is particularly one I'm thinking of is is particularly one I'm thinking of is is particularly studying professors who are highly cited studying professors who are highly cited studying professors who are highly cited in their in their in their fields so we we're going to go ahead and fields so we we're going to go ahead and fields so we we're going to go ahead and observe the way that they read just observe the way that they read just observe the way that they read just environmentally so we're going to be a environmentally so we're going to be a environmentally so we're going to be a fly on the wall and we're going to watch fly on the wall and we're going to watch fly on the wall and we're going to watch what they do we might say that they have what they do we might say that they have what they do we might say that they have both a great deal of domain expertise both a great deal of domain expertise both a great deal of domain expertise and also as it happens probably a great and also as it happens probably a great and also as it happens probably a great deal of skill in Reading strategy um deal of skill in Reading strategy um deal of skill in Reading strategy um there there's also a literature about there there's also a literature about there there's also a literature about reading strategy specifically and kind reading strategy specifically and kind reading strategy specifically and kind of breaking down like people who might

of breaking down like people who might of breaking down like people who might be an expert in their field but might be an expert in their field but might be an expert in their field but might not have reading strategies versus not have reading strategies versus not have reading strategies versus people who have reading strategies and people who have reading strategies and people who have reading strategies and aren't experts in their field and you aren't experts in their field and you aren't experts in their field and you can kind of tease apart people who have can kind of tease apart people who have can kind of tease apart people who have one not the other will behave in one not the other will behave in one not the other will behave in slightly different ways um so earlier slightly different ways um so earlier slightly different ways um so earlier when I was talking about highly when I was talking about highly when I was talking about highly nonlinear reading I think that's most nonlinear reading I think that's most nonlinear reading I think that's most common among people who have both domain common among people who have both domain common among people who have both domain expertise and reading strategy expertise expertise and reading strategy expertise expertise and reading strategy expertise but uh people who have only uh reading but uh people who have only uh reading but uh people who have only uh reading strategy expertise are able to do things strategy expertise are able to do things strategy expertise are able to do things to comprehend complicated texts outside to comprehend complicated texts outside to comprehend complicated texts outside of their field which people who are not of their field which people who are not of their field which people who are not familiar with reading strategies cannot familiar with reading strategies cannot familiar with reading strategies cannot do uh so so they they will for instance do uh so so they they will for instance do uh so so they they will for instance try to make inferences actively uh try to make inferences actively uh try to make inferences actively uh across long distances in the text is across long distances in the text is across long distances in the text is like one Behavior that's common so for like one Behavior that's common so for like one Behavior that's common so for instance they they'll try to draw this instance they they'll try to draw this instance they they'll try to draw this sentence here on the third page strong sentence here on the third page strong sentence here on the third page strong connections between it and sentence on connections between it and sentence on connections between it and sentence on the first page like ah like they had to the first page like ah like they had to the first page like ah like they had to introduce it this way because this introduce it this way because this introduce it this way because this connects x with the Y and from this they connects x with the Y and from this they connects x with the Y and from this they can kind of try to piece things together can kind of try to piece things together can kind of try to piece things together okay so then the irony of course that okay so then the irony of course that okay so then the irony of course that we're doing this in a linear podcast uh we're doing this in a linear podcast uh we're doing this in a linear podcast uh is not is not lost on me because you is not is not lost on me because you is not is not lost on me because you also have a section in your in your also have a section in your in your also have a section in your in your essay on this about why lectures don't essay on this about why lectures don't essay on this about why lectures don't wor work and one could argue that a wor work and one could argue that a wor work and one could argue that a podcast is a kind of a linear lecture podcast is a kind of a linear lecture podcast is a kind of a linear lecture and it might be entertaining but are we and it might be entertaining but are we and it might be entertaining but are we conveying information I hope that over conveying information I hope that over conveying information I hope that over the last 900 episodes people have gotten the last 900 episodes people have gotten the last 900 episodes people have gotten some value out of this that is more than some value out of this that is more than some value out of this that is more than just entertainment hopefully it is just entertainment hopefully it is just entertainment hopefully it is edutaining at the very least but is this edutaining at the very least but is this edutaining at the very least but is this an effective way to convey information an effective way to convey information an effective way to convey information of at depth perhaps not I hope that it of at depth perhaps not I hope that it of at depth perhaps not I hope that it is a place to kick off individual and

is a place to kick off individual and is a place to kick off individual and personal explorations of topics yeah personal explorations of topics yeah personal explorations of topics yeah that sounds very plausible to me so uh that sounds very plausible to me so uh that sounds very plausible to me so uh my criticism of lectures is that we you my criticism of lectures is that we you my criticism of lectures is that we you talk about conveying information and so talk about conveying information and so talk about conveying information and so I think usually when we think of I think usually when we think of I think usually when we think of information we think about maybe you information we think about maybe you information we think about maybe you attend a physics lecture and the physics attend a physics lecture and the physics attend a physics lecture and the physics lecture introduces the notion of torque lecture introduces the notion of torque lecture introduces the notion of torque uh what is torque how do we calculate it uh what is torque how do we calculate it uh what is torque how do we calculate it what does it mean uh with spe to the what does it mean uh with spe to the what does it mean uh with spe to the cross product and the right-and rule and cross product and the right-and rule and cross product and the right-and rule and all all of these um kind of very all all of these um kind of very all all of these um kind of very specific details um and so so my claim specific details um and so so my claim specific details um and so so my claim is that a lecture is not a very is that a lecture is not a very is that a lecture is not a very effective way to cause somebody to effective way to cause somebody to effective way to cause somebody to acquire those kinds of understanding acquire those kinds of understanding acquire those kinds of understanding these kinds of very specific pieces of these kinds of very specific pieces of these kinds of very specific pieces of information but I do think both it and information but I do think both it and information but I do think both it and podcasts are effective ways for people podcasts are effective ways for people podcasts are effective ways for people to acquire different kinds of to acquire different kinds of to acquire different kinds of understanding which which are still understanding which which are still understanding which which are still quite valuable we just might not call quite valuable we just might not call quite valuable we just might not call them information although I guess from a them information although I guess from a them information although I guess from a computer science perspective they still computer science perspective they still computer science perspective they still are in particular what I mean what I get are in particular what I mean what I get are in particular what I mean what I get from a podcast for instance is I get a from a podcast for instance is I get a from a podcast for instance is I get a portal into the way that Scott or his portal into the way that Scott or his portal into the way that Scott or his guest looks at a particular situation guest looks at a particular situation guest looks at a particular situation looks at a problem uh thinks about uh an looks at a problem uh thinks about uh an looks at a problem uh thinks about uh an opportunity and that helps me build up a opportunity and that helps me build up a opportunity and that helps me build up a different kind of thing from something different kind of thing from something different kind of thing from something like a fact or a technical concept it like a fact or a technical concept it like a fact or a technical concept it helps me build up these scenario helps me build up these scenario helps me build up these scenario templates these kind of tacit knowledge templates these kind of tacit knowledge templates these kind of tacit knowledge things that you might get by hanging out things that you might get by hanging out things that you might get by hanging out at a great organization where if I see at a great organization where if I see at a great organization where if I see something in the world I might think something in the world I might think something in the world I might think okay this reminds me of this thing Scott okay this reminds me of this thing Scott okay this reminds me of this thing Scott said or I might just be subtly and said or I might just be subtly and said or I might just be subtly and implicitly influenced in such a way that implicitly influenced in such a way that implicitly influenced in such a way that I I kind of absorb the attitudes values

I I kind of absorb the attitudes values I I kind of absorb the attitudes values behaviors habits of people around me behaviors habits of people around me behaviors habits of people around me both real and virtual uh and those both real and virtual uh and those both real and virtual uh and those things collectively shape my behavior in things collectively shape my behavior in things collectively shape my behavior in the world the idea of those things the world the idea of those things the world the idea of those things shaping your behavior at depth is shaping your behavior at depth is shaping your behavior at depth is interesting to me but I'm also noticed interesting to me but I'm also noticed interesting to me but I'm also noticed that a lot of folks right now are uh that a lot of folks right now are uh that a lot of folks right now are uh shortening their attention spans and the shortening their attention spans and the shortening their attention spans and the media that they consume so small that media that they consume so small that media that they consume so small that they'll grab a sentence and make that they'll grab a sentence and make that they'll grab a sentence and make that their whole belief system as opposed to their whole belief system as opposed to their whole belief system as opposed to reading a book and absorbing the depth reading a book and absorbing the depth reading a book and absorbing the depth and the essence of that book and and the essence of that book and and the essence of that book and building their own belief systems they building their own belief systems they building their own belief systems they can adopt them from a Tik Tok right can adopt them from a Tik Tok right can adopt them from a Tik Tok right which is which is which is concerning yeah here's maybe a concerning yeah here's maybe a concerning yeah here's maybe a charitable interpretation of that charitable interpretation of that charitable interpretation of that sometimes somebody can say a sentence sometimes somebody can say a sentence sometimes somebody can say a sentence and the sentence seems Bal it seems like and the sentence seems Bal it seems like and the sentence seems Bal it seems like it can't possibly carry all kinds of it can't possibly carry all kinds of it can't possibly carry all kinds of information that's totally new to information that's totally new to information that's totally new to you and yet it seems to have a profound you and yet it seems to have a profound you and yet it seems to have a profound influence so so what what is happening influence so so what what is happening influence so so what what is happening here I think one Theory one explanation here I think one Theory one explanation here I think one Theory one explanation of what's Happening Here is that that of what's Happening Here is that that of what's Happening Here is that that sentence inspires a kind of process of sentence inspires a kind of process of sentence inspires a kind of process of reflection and a a whole kind of reflection and a a whole kind of reflection and a a whole kind of internal internal internal Cascade of Cascade of Cascade of deliberation and from that we now get deliberation and from that we now get deliberation and from that we now get some new conclusion some new belief some some new conclusion some new belief some some new conclusion some new belief some new way of looking at the world and so new way of looking at the world and so new way of looking at the world and so it's not maybe exactly the sentence that it's not maybe exactly the sentence that it's not maybe exactly the sentence that that carried all that information it's that carried all that information it's that carried all that information it's this the sentence tipped over a first this the sentence tipped over a first this the sentence tipped over a first Domino and the last Domino is the one Domino and the last Domino is the one Domino and the last Domino is the one that we value okay so it's an idea that we value okay so it's an idea that we value okay so it's an idea Catalyst yeah that's right and I think Catalyst yeah that's right and I think Catalyst yeah that's right and I think like that can only happen if situation

like that can only happen if situation like that can only happen if situation is just right and so much of the time if is just right and so much of the time if is just right and so much of the time if the next person hears that sentence the the next person hears that sentence the the next person hears that sentence the same thing is not going to happen I do same thing is not going to happen I do same thing is not going to happen I do think that for what I was talking about think that for what I was talking about think that for what I was talking about earlier trying to absorb a worldview earlier trying to absorb a worldview earlier trying to absorb a worldview trying to absorb models habits of mind trying to absorb models habits of mind trying to absorb models habits of mind things like that that the right way to things like that that the right way to things like that that the right way to approach that is kind of the opposite of approach that is kind of the opposite of approach that is kind of the opposite of the sentence form it's it's where you the sentence form it's it's where you the sentence form it's it's where you try to basically build a full model of try to basically build a full model of try to basically build a full model of the way that the person is thinking such the way that the person is thinking such the way that the person is thinking such that you could have had the same that you could have had the same that you could have had the same thoughts the same conclusions you could thoughts the same conclusions you could thoughts the same conclusions you could have found yourself uttering the same have found yourself uttering the same have found yourself uttering the same sentence uh not just because you've sentence uh not just because you've sentence uh not just because you've memorized that one sentence but because memorized that one sentence but because memorized that one sentence but because you've so thoroughly internalized that you've so thoroughly internalized that you've so thoroughly internalized that way of looking at the world that you can way of looking at the world that you can way of looking at the world that you can wear it like an article of clothing and wear it like an article of clothing and wear it like an article of clothing and become it yeah that's why like that that become it yeah that's why like that that become it yeah that's why like that that classic Sci-fi word Gro to to absorb classic Sci-fi word Gro to to absorb classic Sci-fi word Gro to to absorb information so completely that you eat information so completely that you eat information so completely that you eat it and it becomes part of you at the it and it becomes part of you at the it and it becomes part of you at the cellular level yeah yeah yeah cellular level yeah yeah yeah cellular level yeah yeah yeah interesting okay so then then hopping interesting okay so then then hopping interesting okay so then then hopping back you know popping back off the stack back you know popping back off the stack back you know popping back off the stack to the beginning there where you were to the beginning there where you were to the beginning there where you were talking about animation and how talking about animation and how talking about animation and how animations were being used for animations were being used for animations were being used for triviality the dynamism that was being triviality the dynamism that was being triviality the dynamism that was being used in the user interface was a nice used in the user interface was a nice used in the user interface was a nice little bit of Polish but it wasn't little bit of Polish but it wasn't little bit of Polish but it wasn't conveying information or expressing conveying information or expressing conveying information or expressing anything did you find that the hyper anything did you find that the hyper anything did you find that the hyper media that the web represents that I media that the web represents that I media that the web represents that I think even in 2024 we really haven't think even in 2024 we really haven't think even in 2024 we really haven't used it to the fullest you know there's used it to the fullest you know there's used it to the fullest you know there's some really nice things happening with some really nice things happening with some really nice things happening with like d3js and the New York Times has like d3js and the New York Times has like d3js and the New York Times has some lovely infographics but like scroll some lovely infographics but like scroll some lovely infographics but like scroll jacking on the web isn't enough to

jacking on the web isn't enough to jacking on the web isn't enough to really be a good example of conveying really be a good example of conveying really be a good example of conveying information with motion and animation information with motion and animation information with motion and animation right well it's it's not really right well it's it's not really right well it's it's not really conveying information I suppose like conveying information I suppose like conveying information I suppose like scroll jacking effects are scroll jacking effects are scroll jacking effects are um their decoration but we can contrast um their decoration but we can contrast um their decoration but we can contrast their their their with say complicated weather models that with say complicated weather models that with say complicated weather models that we may interact with which allow us to we may interact with which allow us to we may interact with which allow us to view a huge amount of information uh view a huge amount of information uh view a huge amount of information uh very effectively we can we can view very effectively we can we can view very effectively we can we can view information about different attributes information about different attributes information about different attributes of weather covering the entirety of the of weather covering the entirety of the of weather covering the entirety of the United States and we can project it United States and we can project it United States and we can project it forward and backwards in time and we can forward and backwards in time and we can forward and backwards in time and we can we can even perhaps get um probability we can even perhaps get um probability we can even perhaps get um probability estimates and all of this is is built on estimates and all of this is is built on estimates and all of this is is built on computational models which are are computational models which are are computational models which are are themselves very complex and themselves very complex and themselves very complex and dynamic as we think about hypertex and dynamic as we think about hypertex and dynamic as we think about hypertex and Hyper media what is it do for Hyper media what is it do for Hyper media what is it do for us in what sense is it Dynamic if us in what sense is it Dynamic if us in what sense is it Dynamic if Dynamic media are media which can Dynamic media are media which can Dynamic media are media which can compute can behave can respond then compute can behave can respond then compute can behave can respond then hypertext is a fairly narrow subset of hypertext is a fairly narrow subset of hypertext is a fairly narrow subset of dynamic media namely it allows for dynamic media namely it allows for dynamic media namely it allows for navigation rapid navigation which we can navigation rapid navigation which we can navigation rapid navigation which we can construe as a kind of subsetting of an construe as a kind of subsetting of an construe as a kind of subsetting of an information space so if you had the information space so if you had the information space so if you had the entirety of a book in front of you hybd entirety of a book in front of you hybd entirety of a book in front of you hybd text allows you to rapidly Focus your text allows you to rapidly Focus your text allows you to rapidly Focus your attention on a particular part of the attention on a particular part of the attention on a particular part of the book narrow your field of view and to do book narrow your field of view and to do book narrow your field of view and to do so in a in a targeted fashion and so we so in a in a targeted fashion and so we so in a in a targeted fashion and so we found that that works really well in found that that works really well in found that that works really well in situations where it's beneficial to

situations where it's beneficial to situations where it's beneficial to rapidly shift your field of view in a rapidly shift your field of view in a rapidly shift your field of view in a targeted way encyclopedias dictionaries targeted way encyclopedias dictionaries targeted way encyclopedias dictionaries the sorai things like that being great the sorai things like that being great the sorai things like that being great exemplars because each of those targets exemplars because each of those targets exemplars because each of those targets are intentionally authored in such a way are intentionally authored in such a way are intentionally authored in such a way as to stand on their own I think where as to stand on their own I think where as to stand on their own I think where media books for instance both fiction media books for instance both fiction media books for instance both fiction and non-fiction have struggled to a and non-fiction have struggled to a and non-fiction have struggled to a greater greater greater degree is that one of the strengths of degree is that one of the strengths of degree is that one of the strengths of Pros is the ability to use a narrative Pros is the ability to use a narrative Pros is the ability to use a narrative Arc to construct a rich and elaborate Arc to construct a rich and elaborate Arc to construct a rich and elaborate context over time as soon as you context over time as soon as you context over time as soon as you introduce hyper media to the mix you introduce hyper media to the mix you introduce hyper media to the mix you interfere with the PR's ability to do interfere with the PR's ability to do interfere with the PR's ability to do that because any particular piece of the that because any particular piece of the that because any particular piece of the text is potentially um something which text is potentially um something which text is potentially um something which people are going to reach through one of people are going to reach through one of people are going to reach through one of many different paths and while that many different paths and while that many different paths and while that works fine for a thesur entry which is works fine for a thesur entry which is works fine for a thesur entry which is short and independent uh it doesn't work short and independent uh it doesn't work short and independent uh it doesn't work so well for page 200 of a 400 page um so well for page 200 of a 400 page um so well for page 200 of a 400 page um delicate argument and so there are delicate argument and so there are delicate argument and so there are structural reasons rather than merely structural reasons rather than merely structural reasons rather than merely cultural or technological reasons why we cultural or technological reasons why we cultural or technological reasons why we haven't seen richer uptake of hyper text haven't seen richer uptake of hyper text haven't seen richer uptake of hyper text I think okay so then let me try to I think okay so then let me try to I think okay so then let me try to synthesize everything that you've said synthesize everything that you've said synthesize everything that you've said and the perspective that I've offered and the perspective that I've offered and the perspective that I've offered and apply it to uh some work that you and apply it to uh some work that you and apply it to uh some work that you worked on called Quantum Computing for worked on called Quantum Computing for worked on called Quantum Computing for the very curious which you can see at the very curious which you can see at the very curious which you can see at Quantum do country it has scroll jacking Quantum do country it has scroll jacking Quantum do country it has scroll jacking it has saving of your space it has a it has saving of your space it has a it has saving of your space it has a timeline that shows you the time that timeline that shows you the time that timeline that shows you the time that you've interacted with the text help me you've interacted with the text help me you've interacted with the text help me understand because this is a huge chunk understand because this is a huge chunk understand because this is a huge chunk of work here it's a massive massive of work here it's a massive massive of work here it's a massive massive thing I think you did this like six thing I think you did this like six thing I think you did this like six years ago there's a huge amount of

years ago there's a huge amount of years ago there's a huge amount of information here what is different how information here what is different how information here what is different how is this not just a really long book is this not just a really long book is this not just a really long book Quantum Computing for the very curious Quantum Computing for the very curious Quantum Computing for the very curious and the the larger work containing at and the the larger work containing at and the the larger work containing at Quantum country they are examples of Quantum country they are examples of Quantum country they are examples of dynamic media but the hypertext parts dynamic media but the hypertext parts dynamic media but the hypertext parts are are actually not very important or are are actually not very important or are are actually not very important or interesting the part that's interesting interesting the part that's interesting interesting the part that's interesting is that it includes these interactive is that it includes these interactive is that it includes these interactive Elements which try to support the reader Elements which try to support the reader Elements which try to support the reader memory of the material so uh for those memory of the material so uh for those memory of the material so uh for those who haven't seen as you read through who haven't seen as you read through who haven't seen as you read through this book there are embedded exercises this book there are embedded exercises this book there are embedded exercises where uh you you might read for a few where uh you you might read for a few where uh you you might read for a few minutes and then there's a few quick minutes and then there's a few quick minutes and then there's a few quick questions about what you just read and questions about what you just read and questions about what you just read and that is not all that unusual there's that is not all that unusual there's that is not all that unusual there's various online uh systems that work in various online uh systems that work in various online uh systems that work in this way what is kind of unusual is that this way what is kind of unusual is that this way what is kind of unusual is that the book then follows up and uh after a the book then follows up and uh after a the book then follows up and uh after a few days it sends you an email and says few days it sends you an email and says few days it sends you an email and says like hey uh you've probably we have like hey uh you've probably we have like hey uh you've probably we have empirical data which suggests that You' empirical data which suggests that You' empirical data which suggests that You' probably started to forget uh some of probably started to forget uh some of probably started to forget uh some of this material that you just read but if this material that you just read but if this material that you just read but if you spend like five minutes right now you spend like five minutes right now you spend like five minutes right now you can remember it uh much more you can remember it uh much more you can remember it uh much more reliably into the future and uh and so reliably into the future and uh and so reliably into the future and uh and so on and so forth from there and so so the on and so forth from there and so so the on and so forth from there and so so the text is woven into this larger system text is woven into this larger system text is woven into this larger system which tries to support your durable which tries to support your durable which tries to support your durable internalization of the material yeah uh internalization of the material yeah uh internalization of the material yeah uh and you call that a pneumonic medium and and you call that a pneumonic medium and and you call that a pneumonic medium and the way that I've explained it to uh to the way that I've explained it to uh to the way that I've explained it to uh to my teenagers was there's this Flappy my teenagers was there's this Flappy my teenagers was there's this Flappy Bird of the memory and you learn Bird of the memory and you learn Bird of the memory and you learn something and then the Flappy Bird go something and then the Flappy Bird go something and then the Flappy Bird go and then you have to you know you have and then you have to you know you have and then you have to you know you have to keep bouncing the Flappy Bird uh

to keep bouncing the Flappy Bird uh to keep bouncing the Flappy Bird uh every couple of uh you know I love that every couple of uh you know I love that every couple of uh you know I love that image you like the space repetition of image you like the space repetition of image you like the space repetition of the Flappy Bird you can use that wow it the Flappy Bird you can use that wow it the Flappy Bird you can use that wow it is it the case in the game does the does is it the case in the game does the does is it the case in the game does the does the bird's um speed of descent uh change the bird's um speed of descent uh change the bird's um speed of descent uh change in response it does I think it's fixed in response it does I think it's fixed in response it does I think it's fixed just based on their sense of physics but just based on their sense of physics but just based on their sense of physics but I get the IDE my my perspective is the I get the IDE my my perspective is the I get the IDE my my perspective is the hard you slap the bird the longer it'll hard you slap the bird the longer it'll hard you slap the bird the longer it'll stay up in the air so that that works stay up in the air so that that works stay up in the air so that that works when you think about space repetition as when you think about space repetition as when you think about space repetition as well as trying to remember things right well as trying to remember things right well as trying to remember things right right yeah the interesting thing about right yeah the interesting thing about right yeah the interesting thing about the space repetition thing is is the space repetition thing is is the space repetition thing is is basically that um if you are trying to basically that um if you are trying to basically that um if you are trying to recall what it is that you're trying to recall what it is that you're trying to recall what it is that you're trying to remember when you can kind of just remember when you can kind of just remember when you can kind of just barely do it then you will repeatedly barely do it then you will repeatedly barely do it then you will repeatedly extend the amount of time that you can extend the amount of time that you can extend the amount of time that you can remember that is the bird falls slower remember that is the bird falls slower remember that is the bird falls slower and slower each time and sometimes we do and slower each time and sometimes we do and slower each time and sometimes we do this naturally right so I think it's this naturally right so I think it's this naturally right so I think it's interesting to ask the question like why interesting to ask the question like why interesting to ask the question like why is it that sometimes we read a book or is it that sometimes we read a book or is it that sometimes we read a book or we take a class and we actually remember we take a class and we actually remember we take a class and we actually remember the material and often we don't and we the material and often we don't and we the material and often we don't and we can explain the difference I think just can explain the difference I think just can explain the difference I think just in terms of the world conspiring to give in terms of the world conspiring to give in terms of the world conspiring to give us the correct us the correct us the correct flapping uh staccato Rhythm uh you know flapping uh staccato Rhythm uh you know flapping uh staccato Rhythm uh you know sometimes we read a book and then later sometimes we read a book and then later sometimes we read a book and then later that evening it comes up over dinner and that evening it comes up over dinner and that evening it comes up over dinner and then a few days later it comes up in a then a few days later it comes up in a then a few days later it comes up in a project and then a couple of weeks later project and then a couple of weeks later project and then a couple of weeks later it comes up in a conversation after that it comes up in a conversation after that it comes up in a conversation after that and each time it comes up and we and each time it comes up and we and each time it comes up and we remember we can remember for longer and remember we can remember for longer and remember we can remember for longer and that happens to just ride the bird at that happens to just ride the bird at that happens to just ride the bird at the right time whereas by contrast if the right time whereas by contrast if the right time whereas by contrast if you read the book and it doesn't come up you read the book and it doesn't come up you read the book and it doesn't come up for a few weeks and you try to remember for a few weeks and you try to remember for a few weeks and you try to remember and you can't remember now you're not and you can't remember now you're not and you can't remember now you're not reinforcing it so you look it up but reinforcing it so you look it up but reinforcing it so you look it up but that actually doesn't reinforce your

that actually doesn't reinforce your that actually doesn't reinforce your memory so you can't remember any longer memory so you can't remember any longer memory so you can't remember any longer and then it comes up a few weeks later and then it comes up a few weeks later and then it comes up a few weeks later and you still don't remember and so on and you still don't remember and so on and you still don't remember and so on and so forth so my 18yar old uh recently and so forth so my 18yar old uh recently and so forth so my 18yar old uh recently had to go and do a test because he's had to go and do a test because he's had to go and do a test because he's going to University in a couple of going to University in a couple of going to University in a couple of months and they wanted to do a math PL months and they wanted to do a math PL months and they wanted to do a math PL placements test he had done the majority placements test he had done the majority placements test he had done the majority of his math in sophomore year of high of his math in sophomore year of high of his math in sophomore year of high school so he had two years where he school so he had two years where he school so he had two years where he hadn't done logarithms he hadn't done hadn't done logarithms he hadn't done hadn't done logarithms he hadn't done preal and he was frustrated with himself preal and he was frustrated with himself preal and he was frustrated with himself that it took so long to dig those out of that it took so long to dig those out of that it took so long to dig those out of the archive so we went to con we banged the archive so we went to con we banged the archive so we went to con we banged out some videos and then he you know he out some videos and then he you know he out some videos and then he you know he dusted off and he's like oh that's the I dusted off and he's like oh that's the I dusted off and he's like oh that's the I remember the logarithms and how they remember the logarithms and how they remember the logarithms and how they work but that distance that two years work but that distance that two years work but that distance that two years was just too too long and then he was just too too long and then he was just too too long and then he started asking himself why do need to started asking himself why do need to started asking himself why do need to know this general knowledge like this is know this general knowledge like this is know this general knowledge like this is stuff that's on the internet you know stuff that's on the internet you know stuff that's on the internet you know now when I was a kid learning geometry now when I was a kid learning geometry now when I was a kid learning geometry my dad would always say well one day my dad would always say well one day my dad would always say well one day you're going to have to build a deck in you're going to have to build a deck in you're going to have to build a deck in your backyard and you'll need you'll your backyard and you'll need you'll your backyard and you'll need you'll need geometry like that was a very 1980s need geometry like that was a very 1980s need geometry like that was a very 1980s perspective of why geometry is important perspective of why geometry is important perspective of why geometry is important I'm struggling to explain to a teenager I'm struggling to explain to a teenager I'm struggling to explain to a teenager why these things matter why base why these things matter why base why these things matter why base knowledge matters uh in in a world where knowledge matters uh in in a world where knowledge matters uh in in a world where we might have AGI in a couple of years we might have AGI in a couple of years we might have AGI in a couple of years what would you say to that what would you say to that what would you say to that right well I think this is a very right well I think this is a very right well I think this is a very difficult question and it's one that difficult question and it's one that difficult question and it's one that we're all figuring out together so so we're all figuring out together so so we're all figuring out together so so let let me try let me try to address let let me try let me try to address let let me try let me try to address this as best I can from a a this as best I can from a a this as best I can from a a prei uh perspective and then artificial prei uh perspective and then artificial prei uh perspective and then artificial general intelligence for those apologies general intelligence for those apologies general intelligence for those apologies for using the three letter acronym and for using the three letter acronym and for using the three letter acronym and then we can maybe consider a post AGI

then we can maybe consider a post AGI then we can maybe consider a post AGI world and ask about it so why should a world and ask about it so why should a world and ask about it so why should a teenager care about logarithms when they teenager care about logarithms when they teenager care about logarithms when they haven't used logarithms in a couple haven't used logarithms in a couple haven't used logarithms in a couple years they're going off to college and years they're going off to college and years they're going off to college and the entrance exam wants them to know the entrance exam wants them to know the entrance exam wants them to know about logarithms and the same for polom about logarithms and the same for polom about logarithms and the same for polom facts and so on and so forth and the facts and so on and so forth and the facts and so on and so forth and the best defense of this I can offer is that best defense of this I can offer is that best defense of this I can offer is that if you are interested in anything if you are interested in anything if you are interested in anything technical really then the these topics technical really then the these topics technical really then the these topics end up underlying that technical end up underlying that technical end up underlying that technical material in a way where looking up the material in a way where looking up the material in a way where looking up the answer um is actually not sufficient and answer um is actually not sufficient and answer um is actually not sufficient and it's not sufficient for for two it's not sufficient for for two it's not sufficient for for two important reasons the first is that often it is not clear what knowledge you often it is not clear what knowledge you need but don't have in a given situation need but don't have in a given situation need but don't have in a given situation so if you are trying to solve a so if you are trying to solve a so if you are trying to solve a difficult physical chemistry problem or difficult physical chemistry problem or difficult physical chemistry problem or physics problem or Graphics programming physics problem or Graphics programming physics problem or Graphics programming problem it may simply not occur to you problem it may simply not occur to you problem it may simply not occur to you that the situation you're looking at is that the situation you're looking at is that the situation you're looking at is essentially logarithmic and that means essentially logarithmic and that means essentially logarithmic and that means that you can deal with it in terms of that you can deal with it in terms of that you can deal with it in terms of adding uh instead of some very complex adding uh instead of some very complex adding uh instead of some very complex thing that that you're you're trying to thing that that you're you're trying to thing that that you're you're trying to approximate more broadly this applies in approximate more broadly this applies in approximate more broadly this applies in general I think to knowledge and general I think to knowledge and general I think to knowledge and creative work creative insights are very creative work creative insights are very creative work creative insights are very often the result of noticing a often the result of noticing a often the result of noticing a coincidence that seems a little coincidence that seems a little coincidence that seems a little suspicious or noticing a contradiction suspicious or noticing a contradiction suspicious or noticing a contradiction or noticing a connection and I think or noticing a connection and I think or noticing a connection and I think it's only possible to notice those it's only possible to notice those it's only possible to notice those things in many cases if the constituents

things in many cases if the constituents things in many cases if the constituents of the connection or the contradiction of the connection or the contradiction of the connection or the contradiction or The Coincidence are both available to or The Coincidence are both available to or The Coincidence are both available to you you don't know what you need to look you you don't know what you need to look you you don't know what you need to look up do the idea of like I don't know what up do the idea of like I don't know what up do the idea of like I don't know what I don't know so where am I going to I I don't know so where am I going to I I don't know so where am I going to I wouldn't even know what to Google for I wouldn't even know what to Google for I wouldn't even know what to Google for I wouldn't even know not even being able wouldn't even know not even being able wouldn't even know not even being able to ask the question AI is not going to to ask the question AI is not going to to ask the question AI is not going to solve that problem yeah the second issue solve that problem yeah the second issue solve that problem yeah the second issue is one of fluency and this one's really is one of fluency and this one's really is one of fluency and this one's really subtle and it's really hard to see and subtle and it's really hard to see and subtle and it's really hard to see and feel so part of why my collaborator feel so part of why my collaborator feel so part of why my collaborator Michael neelson and I chose Quantum Michael neelson and I chose Quantum Michael neelson and I chose Quantum Computing for this project Quantum Computing for this project Quantum Computing for this project Quantum country was that Quantum Computing is country was that Quantum Computing is country was that Quantum Computing is famously difficult and we believe that famously difficult and we believe that famously difficult and we believe that one reason why Quantum Computing is one reason why Quantum Computing is one reason why Quantum Computing is famously difficult is that before you famously difficult is that before you famously difficult is that before you can do the first interesting thing with can do the first interesting thing with can do the first interesting thing with it before you can look at the first it before you can look at the first it before you can look at the first interesting system you are assaulted interesting system you are assaulted interesting system you are assaulted with this tital wave of new notation and with this tital wave of new notation and with this tital wave of new notation and terminology and methodology and terminology and methodology and terminology and methodology and conceptual conceptual conceptual material and then in order to look at material and then in order to look at material and then in order to look at the first meaningful Quantum circuit you the first meaningful Quantum circuit you the first meaningful Quantum circuit you got to combine these like 30 new ideas got to combine these like 30 new ideas got to combine these like 30 new ideas and unfortunally that that's kind of and unfortunally that that's kind of and unfortunally that that's kind of physically not really physically not really physically not really possible in some sense we we have this possible in some sense we we have this possible in some sense we we have this working memory capacity that's very working memory capacity that's very working memory capacity that's very limited you may have heard this this limited you may have heard this this limited you may have heard this this phrase the magical number seven plus or phrase the magical number seven plus or phrase the magical number seven plus or minus 2 we can only hold so many things minus 2 we can only hold so many things minus 2 we can only hold so many things in our mind at once and the way that we in our mind at once and the way that we in our mind at once and the way that we deal with complex material is by deal with complex material is by deal with complex material is by automaticity that is either we combine automaticity that is either we combine automaticity that is either we combine smaller things into a larger thing so smaller things into a larger thing so smaller things into a larger thing so that each one of those seven slots goes

that each one of those seven slots goes that each one of those seven slots goes further or we've so thoroughly further or we've so thoroughly further or we've so thoroughly internalize something like moving a term internalize something like moving a term internalize something like moving a term from one side to the other side of an from one side to the other side of an from one side to the other side of an equation that it's not even something equation that it's not even something equation that it's not even something which takes off a slot anymore it's simp which takes off a slot anymore it's simp which takes off a slot anymore it's simp something we can do automatically and so something we can do automatically and so something we can do automatically and so coming back to the situation with with coming back to the situation with with coming back to the situation with with your son when many people struggle with your son when many people struggle with your son when many people struggle with college topics like physics say and it college topics like physics say and it college topics like physics say and it seems like the material is just really seems like the material is just really seems like the material is just really difficult like this is just a really difficult like this is just a really difficult like this is just a really hard course actually what's happening in hard course actually what's happening in hard course actually what's happening in many cases I claim is that the course is many cases I claim is that the course is many cases I claim is that the course is assuming they have a degree of fluency assuming they have a degree of fluency assuming they have a degree of fluency and automaticity that they don't have and automaticity that they don't have and automaticity that they don't have and so they're like a an old computer and so they're like a an old computer and so they're like a an old computer that didn't have enough RAM that's that didn't have enough RAM that's that didn't have enough RAM that's constantly paging out to disk and kind constantly paging out to disk and kind constantly paging out to disk and kind of like can't keep enough in memory at of like can't keep enough in memory at of like can't keep enough in memory at once to actually make progress on the once to actually make progress on the once to actually make progress on the problem before getting confused and lost problem before getting confused and lost problem before getting confused and lost and frustrated again that is a very good and frustrated again that is a very good and frustrated again that is a very good analogy I've I have often used that term analogy I've I have often used that term analogy I've I have often used that term thrashing to dis and no one remembers thrashing to dis and no one remembers thrashing to dis and no one remembers that a lot uh because we can't hear our that a lot uh because we can't hear our that a lot uh because we can't hear our hard drives anymore which is something hard drives anymore which is something hard drives anymore which is something that I uh am mourning uh I don't like a that I uh am mourning uh I don't like a that I uh am mourning uh I don't like a hard drive you can't hear spin but uh hard drive you can't hear spin but uh hard drive you can't hear spin but uh when we were having this issue with when we were having this issue with when we were having this issue with logarithms we I suggested that we back logarithms we I suggested that we back logarithms we I suggested that we back up and we do some basic pre-algebra and up and we do some basic pre-algebra and up and we do some basic pre-algebra and he found that irritating I was like no he found that irritating I was like no he found that irritating I was like no let's just let's just do it it's it's let's just let's just do it it's it's let's just let's just do it it's it's it's literally a warmup before the heavy it's literally a warmup before the heavy it's literally a warmup before the heavy lift and that that worked and and kind lift and that that worked and and kind lift and that that worked and and kind of dislodged what he needed to do but of dislodged what he needed to do but of dislodged what he needed to do but there was a moment there where like it there was a moment there where like it there was a moment there where like it sounds silly but like we're doing sounds silly but like we're doing sounds silly but like we're doing college level math here and I'm like college level math here and I'm like college level math here and I'm like let's just remind ourselves what pedms

let's just remind ourselves what pedms let's just remind ourselves what pedms does let's remind ourselves of order does let's remind ourselves of order does let's remind ourselves of order operations and it's like no no no I operations and it's like no no no I operations and it's like no no no I don't know all that do you though do you don't know all that do you though do you don't know all that do you though do you yeah so no the problem is this word no yeah so no the problem is this word no yeah so no the problem is this word no it's it's overloaded I was working with it's it's overloaded I was working with it's it's overloaded I was working with a student last year on some pretty a student last year on some pretty a student last year on some pretty difficult physics and they were having difficult physics and they were having difficult physics and they were having exactly the problem I was describing exactly the problem I was describing exactly the problem I was describing where I mean it was undergraduate where I mean it was undergraduate where I mean it was undergraduate physics it was first year undergraduate physics it was first year undergraduate physics it was first year undergraduate physics and the the material just felt physics and the the material just felt physics and the the material just felt it just felt really hard they were it just felt really hard they were it just felt really hard they were trying to do problems and they were just trying to do problems and they were just trying to do problems and they were just struggling and they we thought well is struggling and they we thought well is struggling and they we thought well is it that they're forgetting the physics it that they're forgetting the physics it that they're forgetting the physics Concepts that they're learning you know Concepts that they're learning you know Concepts that they're learning you know maybe the space repetition thing will maybe the space repetition thing will maybe the space repetition thing will help that wasn't quite it is it that help that wasn't quite it is it that help that wasn't quite it is it that they're like failing to comprehend they're like failing to comprehend they're like failing to comprehend serial so they remember it but they serial so they remember it but they serial so they remember it but they don't really know what it means like don't really know what it means like don't really know what it means like maybe there's a bit of that going on but maybe there's a bit of that going on but maybe there's a bit of that going on but actually turned out that like in many actually turned out that like in many actually turned out that like in many cases what was going on was that cases what was going on was that cases what was going on was that actually algebra just wasn't fluent actually algebra just wasn't fluent actually algebra just wasn't fluent enough for this person that is like they enough for this person that is like they enough for this person that is like they needed to consciously use several of needed to consciously use several of needed to consciously use several of those working memory slots in order to those working memory slots in order to those working memory slots in order to do non-trivial manipulations of the do non-trivial manipulations of the do non-trivial manipulations of the equations in the problems they were equations in the problems they were equations in the problems they were solving and so if half of your RAM is is solving and so if half of your RAM is is solving and so if half of your RAM is is taken up by some old program and running taken up by some old program and running taken up by some old program and running in the background then like you can't in the background then like you can't in the background then like you can't you can't load the new program into you can't load the new program into you can't load the new program into memory kind of was the situation and so memory kind of was the situation and so memory kind of was the situation and so the the the proposed remedy which which the the the proposed remedy which which the the the proposed remedy which which I actually never got to see the the I actually never got to see the the I actually never got to see the the resolution of was like okay like maybe resolution of was like okay like maybe resolution of was like okay like maybe you actually you just you need to get you actually you just you need to get you actually you just you need to get some fluency at algebra and that's a some fluency at algebra and that's a some fluency at algebra and that's a hard thing to hear I I was I was in hard thing to hear I I was I was in hard thing to hear I I was I was in Spain uh on a job recently uh having Spain uh on a job recently uh having Spain uh on a job recently uh having taken five years of Spanish and feeling taken five years of Spanish and feeling taken five years of Spanish and feeling like I was quite competent in Spanish

like I was quite competent in Spanish like I was quite competent in Spanish only to discover that my Chipotle level only to discover that my Chipotle level only to discover that my Chipotle level Spanish was not going to cut it in Spain Spanish was not going to cut it in Spain Spanish was not going to cut it in Spain and it was a moment there where I was and it was a moment there where I was and it was a moment there where I was like Wow five years of Spanish and I like Wow five years of Spanish and I like Wow five years of Spanish and I probably speak at a Spanish 2 level and probably speak at a Spanish 2 level and probably speak at a Spanish 2 level and that was a real reset I need to go back that was a real reset I need to go back that was a real reset I need to go back to school no joke and and get a tutor to school no joke and and get a tutor to school no joke and and get a tutor and and just tighten up that base of the and and just tighten up that base of the and and just tighten up that base of the Pyramid of my knowledge before I try to Pyramid of my knowledge before I try to Pyramid of my knowledge before I try to go back to Spain yeah we use this word go back to Spain yeah we use this word go back to Spain yeah we use this word no to mean am familiar with and if you no to mean am familiar with and if you no to mean am familiar with and if you like remind me I can kind of page it like remind me I can kind of page it like remind me I can kind of page it back into memory or like I can with back into memory or like I can with back into memory or like I can with effort uh that or I know it like back of effort uh that or I know it like back of effort uh that or I know it like back of my and like from a mechanic perspective my and like from a mechanic perspective my and like from a mechanic perspective those all mean really different things those all mean really different things those all mean really different things and are going to give rise to really and are going to give rise to really and are going to give rise to really different results uh in a given different results uh in a given different results uh in a given situation yeah as you're experiencing situation yeah as you're experiencing situation yeah as you're experiencing yeah and and i' absolutely and I'm yeah and and i' absolutely and I'm yeah and and i' absolutely and I'm watching that with a great deal of um of watching that with a great deal of um of watching that with a great deal of um of Parental empathy as I watch my my sons Parental empathy as I watch my my sons Parental empathy as I watch my my sons explore this stuff um a couple of uh explore this stuff um a couple of uh explore this stuff um a couple of uh shows ago two shows ago I had uh Sam shows ago two shows ago I had uh Sam shows ago two shows ago I had uh Sam rose on the show I'm not sure if you're rose on the show I'm not sure if you're rose on the show I'm not sure if you're familiar with his work yeah uh Sam does familiar with his work yeah uh Sam does familiar with his work yeah uh Sam does some amazing work with visual some amazing work with visual some amazing work with visual introductions to computer science which introductions to computer science which introductions to computer science which I think really blurs that line between a I think really blurs that line between a I think really blurs that line between a you know a truly interactive computer you know a truly interactive computer you know a truly interactive computer program and an interactive book where he program and an interactive book where he program and an interactive book where he gives you a couple paragraphs and then gives you a couple paragraphs and then gives you a couple paragraphs and then he just hits you hard with a really he just hits you hard with a really he just hits you hard with a really great visualization that clarifies it great visualization that clarifies it great visualization that clarifies it and we talked about on that episode and we talked about on that episode and we talked about on that episode whether or not he believed in uh whether or not he believed in uh whether or not he believed in uh learning styles I believe very much that

learning styles I believe very much that learning styles I believe very much that I'm a visual learner but then I hear I'm a visual learner but then I hear I'm a visual learner but then I hear that there's research that says learning that there's research that says learning that there's research that says learning styles is not a thing there's no such styles is not a thing there's no such styles is not a thing there's no such thing as an auditory learner or visual thing as an auditory learner or visual thing as an auditory learner or visual learner where do you stand on that learner where do you stand on that learner where do you stand on that argument yeah so there's like an argument yeah so there's like an argument yeah so there's like an empirical question the empirical empirical question the empirical empirical question the empirical question that that you're you're question that that you're you're question that that you're you're referencing is like we used to think referencing is like we used to think referencing is like we used to think that maybe it's the case that like Sally that maybe it's the case that like Sally that maybe it's the case that like Sally is a visual learner and Bob is a is a visual learner and Bob is a is a visual learner and Bob is a symbolic learner and so it's very symbolic learner and so it's very symbolic learner and so it's very important that you like present visual important that you like present visual important that you like present visual material to Sally and symbolic material material to Sally and symbolic material material to Sally and symbolic material to Bob and we thought that maybe those to Bob and we thought that maybe those to Bob and we thought that maybe those things are like traits of the person as things are like traits of the person as things are like traits of the person as opposed to States or or maybe they're opposed to States or or maybe they're opposed to States or or maybe they're they're partially traish and that seems they're partially traish and that seems they're partially traish and that seems not really to be true but there are some not really to be true but there are some not really to be true but there are some things that are sort of like that that things that are sort of like that that things that are sort of like that that are true um one is that we have are true um one is that we have are true um one is that we have different fluencies in different media different fluencies in different media different fluencies in different media and so as we're constructing and so as we're constructing and so as we're constructing understandings of a new topic a person understandings of a new topic a person understandings of a new topic a person who is very visually fluent that is has who is very visually fluent that is has who is very visually fluent that is has a large um large repertoire of patterns a large um large repertoire of patterns a large um large repertoire of patterns that they can draw on when they're that they can draw on when they're that they can draw on when they're presented with information about that presented with information about that presented with information about that new topic they will tend to use that new topic they will tend to use that new topic they will tend to use that repertoire to construct visualizations repertoire to construct visualizations repertoire to construct visualizations in their mind they're elaborating what in their mind they're elaborating what in their mind they're elaborating what they're hearing and they're connecting they're hearing and they're connecting they're hearing and they're connecting it and comparing it to Prior related it and comparing it to Prior related it and comparing it to Prior related topics and they're they're using visual topics and they're they're using visual topics and they're they're using visual apparatus to do that um and somebody apparatus to do that um and somebody apparatus to do that um and somebody else who's maybe more abstract or else who's maybe more abstract or else who's maybe more abstract or symbolic might take in a topic and be symbolic might take in a topic and be symbolic might take in a topic and be digesting it internally with abstraction digesting it internally with abstraction digesting it internally with abstraction and it's true that for those people in and it's true that for those people in and it's true that for those people in that state that they're in uh given that state that they're in uh given that state that they're in uh given given their their background and their given their their background and their given their their background and their fluency with those different topics

fluency with those different topics fluency with those different topics somebody who has that visual repertoire somebody who has that visual repertoire somebody who has that visual repertoire if you present them something visual it if you present them something visual it if you present them something visual it may be easier for them to draw on their may be easier for them to draw on their may be easier for them to draw on their visual repertoire it's not exclusive visual repertoire it's not exclusive visual repertoire it's not exclusive though like you can have both the visual though like you can have both the visual though like you can have both the visual and the abstract repertoire um it's more and the abstract repertoire um it's more and the abstract repertoire um it's more more just a question of experience and I more just a question of experience and I more just a question of experience and I think like the thing that relates to think like the thing that relates to think like the thing that relates to this and it kind of cuts through the this and it kind of cuts through the this and it kind of cuts through the idea of the either or is that you you idea of the either or is that you you idea of the either or is that you you will in roughly all situations uh will in roughly all situations uh will in roughly all situations uh understand the thing much better if you understand the thing much better if you understand the thing much better if you can represent it in many ways so can represent it in many ways so can represent it in many ways so actually it's better for you to learn it actually it's better for you to learn it actually it's better for you to learn it ually and symbolically and narratively ually and symbolically and narratively ually and symbolically and narratively and and so on and so forth and and so on and so forth and and so on and so forth kinesthetically in so far as it's kinesthetically in so far as it's kinesthetically in so far as it's possible and then to form connections possible and then to form connections possible and then to form connections between all of those representations between all of those representations between all of those representations even if you don't have deep repertoire even if you don't have deep repertoire even if you don't have deep repertoire in all of those things basically the in all of those things basically the in all of those things basically the more rep representations that you have more rep representations that you have more rep representations that you have of the material the stronger the of the material the stronger the of the material the stronger the understanding that you will construct understanding that you will construct understanding that you will construct and that I think is more important than and that I think is more important than and that I think is more important than the individual differences and the individual differences and the individual differences and backgrounds uh one thing that I think backgrounds uh one thing that I think backgrounds uh one thing that I think you've all Al taught me and added to the you've all Al taught me and added to the you've all Al taught me and added to the discourse is uh an essay that you wrote discourse is uh an essay that you wrote discourse is uh an essay that you wrote on your ideal learning environment where on your ideal learning environment where on your ideal learning environment where you were talking about what was you were talking about what was you were talking about what was happening around in your life during a happening around in your life during a happening around in your life during a moment when you learned a lot uh you moment when you learned a lot uh you moment when you learned a lot uh you noticed that there to tell people about noticed that there to tell people about noticed that there to tell people about a time when they learned a lot but a time when they learned a lot but a time when they learned a lot but learning wasn't the point like you felt learning wasn't the point like you felt learning wasn't the point like you felt like you grew but it wasn't because you like you grew but it wasn't because you like you grew but it wasn't because you went off in a moment to learn and I went off in a moment to learn and I went off in a moment to learn and I think right now we are structuring

think right now we are structuring think right now we are structuring school for kids where it's like all school for kids where it's like all school for kids where it's like all right it's 3:00 learn you know and right it's 3:00 learn you know and right it's 3:00 learn you know and that's that's very difficult and that's that's that's very difficult and that's that's that's very difficult and that's not typically the time when they feel not typically the time when they feel not typically the time when they feel like they are learning the most how do like they are learning the most how do like they are learning the most how do we make space for the learning to happen we make space for the learning to happen we make space for the learning to happen more naturally as opposed to more naturally as opposed to more naturally as opposed to compartmentalizing it into the you must compartmentalizing it into the you must compartmentalizing it into the you must learn now from 9 to 4 right one of my learn now from 9 to 4 right one of my learn now from 9 to 4 right one of my favorite places to drawn for this is favorite places to drawn for this is favorite places to drawn for this is Reddit uh Reddit is the home of so many Reddit uh Reddit is the home of so many Reddit uh Reddit is the home of so many obsessives in so many very strange obsessives in so many very strange obsessives in so many very strange niches and you can go and find the niches and you can go and find the niches and you can go and find the person who is gone so far down the person who is gone so far down the person who is gone so far down the rabbit hole of like a woodworking tool rabbit hole of like a woodworking tool rabbit hole of like a woodworking tool from the 18th century that they're now a from the 18th century that they're now a from the 18th century that they're now a master of and like often these people master of and like often these people master of and like often these people are are are teenagers so there's that old Trope teenagers so there's that old Trope teenagers so there's that old Trope about like that the teenager knows all about like that the teenager knows all about like that the teenager knows all 150 Pokemon or you know the first 150 150 Pokemon or you know the first 150 150 Pokemon or you know the first 150 Pokemon but they don't know you know the Pokemon but they don't know you know the Pokemon but they don't know you know the first five elements of the periodic first five elements of the periodic first five elements of the periodic table and they seem to struggle with the table and they seem to struggle with the table and they seem to struggle with the latter and not the former and why is latter and not the former and why is latter and not the former and why is that um and you know the former is that um and you know the former is that um and you know the former is embedded in something with social embedded in something with social embedded in something with social meaning for them and the latter is not meaning for them and the latter is not meaning for them and the latter is not and so I'm very excited about a future and so I'm very excited about a future and so I'm very excited about a future wherein uh the learning that we do is is wherein uh the learning that we do is is wherein uh the learning that we do is is increasingly uh of that kind like the increasingly uh of that kind like the increasingly uh of that kind like the Pokemon or like the 18th century Pokemon or like the 18th century Pokemon or like the 18th century woodworking uh where we're learning woodworking uh where we're learning woodworking uh where we're learning things that are that are connected with things that are that are connected with things that are that are connected with interest and projects that that really interest and projects that that really interest and projects that that really matter to us yeah it is frustrating matter to us yeah it is frustrating matter to us yeah it is frustrating though that I also had zero effort and though that I also had zero effort and though that I also had zero effort and zero trouble remembering all those zero trouble remembering all those zero trouble remembering all those Pokemon uh you know you know it took Pokemon uh you know you know it took Pokemon uh you know you know it took Pokemon go and you know my kids to run Pokemon go and you know my kids to run Pokemon go and you know my kids to run around we went on walks and we collected

around we went on walks and we collected around we went on walks and we collected everything and I guess now there's 1,20 everything and I guess now there's 1,20 everything and I guess now there's 1,20 Pokemon I don't know why I know that and Pokemon I don't know why I know that and Pokemon I don't know why I know that and like really oh my gosh there's a lot of like really oh my gosh there's a lot of like really oh my gosh there's a lot of Pokemon now uh you know and then knowing Pokemon now uh you know and then knowing Pokemon now uh you know and then knowing all but like if you've got the and and all but like if you've got the and and all but like if you've got the and and we're saying that we're saying as we're saying that we're saying as we're saying that we're saying as parents you have the storage and the parents you have the storage and the parents you have the storage and the capability to connect these and their capability to connect these and their capability to connect these and their evolutions and you can't remember you evolutions and you can't remember you evolutions and you can't remember you know this pneumonic from math class or know this pneumonic from math class or know this pneumonic from math class or whatever and it's it comes down to the whatever and it's it comes down to the whatever and it's it comes down to the reward structure for these things also reward structure for these things also reward structure for these things also yeah the simple fact of saying you got yeah the simple fact of saying you got yeah the simple fact of saying you got to learn that is almost enough to turn to learn that is almost enough to turn to learn that is almost enough to turn them off completely sure and one thing them off completely sure and one thing them off completely sure and one thing that that's often a little bit obscured that that's often a little bit obscured that that's often a little bit obscured in these conversations is when we think in these conversations is when we think in these conversations is when we think about the Pokemon versus the periodic about the Pokemon versus the periodic about the Pokemon versus the periodic table or whatever it's often phras like table or whatever it's often phras like table or whatever it's often phras like a choice like okay like you chose to a choice like okay like you chose to a choice like okay like you chose to remember the 150 Pokemon but you're not remember the 150 Pokemon but you're not remember the 150 Pokemon but you're not choosing you're choosing not to remember choosing you're choosing not to remember choosing you're choosing not to remember the uh the elements of the periodic the uh the elements of the periodic the uh the elements of the periodic table and I mean perhaps there's an table and I mean perhaps there's an table and I mean perhaps there's an element of that like maybe they're element of that like maybe they're element of that like maybe they're making a choice about how they're making a choice about how they're making a choice about how they're spending their after school time or spending their after school time or spending their after school time or whatever but I think even if you were whatever but I think even if you were whatever but I think even if you were actually to hold exposure constant like actually to hold exposure constant like actually to hold exposure constant like they are in the chemistry classroom for they are in the chemistry classroom for they are in the chemistry classroom for n hours per week and and it's like n hours per week and and it's like n hours per week and and it's like pretty significant like there there's pretty significant like there there's pretty significant like there there's dozens of hours um and yet still like dozens of hours um and yet still like dozens of hours um and yet still like maybe not that much as being remembered maybe not that much as being remembered maybe not that much as being remembered and so I think quite apart from the and so I think quite apart from the and so I think quite apart from the element of choice we can see all kinds element of choice we can see all kinds element of choice we can see all kinds of other effects going on if you're to of other effects going on if you're to of other effects going on if you're to hold constant the time exposure for the hold constant the time exposure for the hold constant the time exposure for the periodic table of elements and and the periodic table of elements and and the periodic table of elements and and the Pokemon I think you'd see that the Pokemon I think you'd see that the Pokemon I think you'd see that the Pokemon still get remembered more Pokemon still get remembered more Pokemon still get remembered more because it's much richer networks of because it's much richer networks of because it's much richer networks of connection that the Pokemon are connection that the Pokemon are connection that the Pokemon are connected to the episodic experience the connected to the episodic experience the connected to the episodic experience the person had playing the game they're

person had playing the game they're person had playing the game they're connected to that conversation they have connected to that conversation they have connected to that conversation they have with a friend you were arguing about with a friend you were arguing about with a friend you were arguing about whether Charmander or Bulbasaur was whether Charmander or Bulbasaur was whether Charmander or Bulbasaur was better in a particular situation they're better in a particular situation they're better in a particular situation they're connected with the visual expression of connected with the visual expression of connected with the visual expression of the Pokemon which are have their own the Pokemon which are have their own the Pokemon which are have their own kind of nemonic characteristics to them kind of nemonic characteristics to them kind of nemonic characteristics to them they're connected with a song has its they're connected with a song has its they're connected with a song has its own internal connections um they're own internal connections um they're own internal connections um they're connected to a culture and like a set of connected to a culture and like a set of connected to a culture and like a set of visual expressions and memes this visual expressions and memes this visual expressions and memes this incredibly Rich stuff happening in one incredibly Rich stuff happening in one incredibly Rich stuff happening in one place that that's um either not place that that's um either not place that that's um either not happening or it just isn't being happening or it just isn't being happening or it just isn't being attended to isn't deemed interesting in attended to isn't deemed interesting in attended to isn't deemed interesting in The Other Place yeah which arguably then The Other Place yeah which arguably then The Other Place yeah which arguably then makes your your point from the middle of makes your your point from the middle of makes your your point from the middle of the podcast the podcast the podcast those are the things that we need that those are the things that we need that those are the things that we need that is we need all of the different is we need all of the different is we need all of the different representations of the knowledge in representations of the knowledge in representations of the knowledge in symbolic kinesthetic etc etc and then symbolic kinesthetic etc etc and then symbolic kinesthetic etc etc and then space repetition in order to really make space repetition in order to really make space repetition in order to really make it a part of who you are and and hold on it a part of who you are and and hold on it a part of who you are and and hold on to it for as long as possible yeah I to it for as long as possible yeah I to it for as long as possible yeah I guess my claim is that like if there is guess my claim is that like if there is guess my claim is that like if there is a visceral reason for the teenager or me a visceral reason for the teenager or me a visceral reason for the teenager or me say to know the first uh 100 elements of say to know the first uh 100 elements of say to know the first uh 100 elements of the the periodic table and to know all the the periodic table and to know all the the periodic table and to know all of their properties fluently then I of their properties fluently then I of their properties fluently then I believe we will cause that to happen for believe we will cause that to happen for believe we will cause that to happen for ourselves and we can talk about making ourselves and we can talk about making ourselves and we can talk about making it happen more effectively and it happen more effectively and it happen more effectively and efficiently whatever uh but I think the efficiently whatever uh but I think the efficiently whatever uh but I think the key issue actually is that that reason key issue actually is that that reason key issue actually is that that reason doesn't quite doesn't quite doesn't quite exist well uh you are creating tools for exist well uh you are creating tools for exist well uh you are creating tools for thought at patreon Quantum country thought at patreon Quantum country thought at patreon Quantum country you've got almost 1500 people that are you've got almost 1500 people that are you've got almost 1500 people that are supporting you in the work that you're supporting you in the work that you're supporting you in the work that you're doing there uh lots and lots of great doing there uh lots and lots of great doing there uh lots and lots of great and interesting content there you can and interesting content there you can and interesting content there you can also check out Andy match.org to learn also check out Andy match.org to learn also check out Andy match.org to learn all about your independent research some

all about your independent research some all about your independent research some really great notes some um free essays really great notes some um free essays really great notes some um free essays information about how you learn your own information about how you learn your own information about how you learn your own daily routine just a wealth of daily routine just a wealth of daily routine just a wealth of information I appreciate you so much for information I appreciate you so much for information I appreciate you so much for coming on the show and hanging out with coming on the show and hanging out with coming on the show and hanging out with me today and thanks so much for a great me today and thanks so much for a great me today and thanks so much for a great conversation Scott this is really fun I conversation Scott this is really fun I conversation Scott this is really fun I wish we had even more time this could be wish we had even more time this could be wish we had even more time this could be a whole series but we could hear more a whole series but we could hear more a whole series but we could hear more from you by going to your patreon and from you by going to your patreon and from you by going to your patreon and supporting you and checking out your own supporting you and checking out your own supporting you and checking out your own essays and uh and podcasts this has been essays and uh and podcasts this has been essays and uh and podcasts this has been another episode of Hansel minutes and another episode of Hansel minutes and another episode of Hansel minutes and we'll see you again and next week