Competence builds confidence with .NET Principal Engineer Safia Abdalla

Hey friends, it's Scott. I'm going to Hey friends, it's Scott. I'm going to take a moment in the middle of the show take a moment in the middle of the show take a moment in the middle of the show here to thank our sponsors, Tupil. They here to thank our sponsors, Tupil. They here to thank our sponsors, Tupil. They make pair programming joyful. I'm make pair programming joyful. I'm make pair programming joyful. I'm chatting with Johnny Marlor. Johnny, how chatting with Johnny Marlor. Johnny, how chatting with Johnny Marlor. Johnny, how has pair programming made your life as a has pair programming made your life as a has pair programming made your life as a dev, you know, a little less dev, you know, a little less dev, you know, a little less frustrating? frustrating? frustrating? >> Yeah. Um, I I've been a developer for 15 >> Yeah. Um, I I've been a developer for 15 >> Yeah. Um, I I've been a developer for 15 years, and I'll say one of the most years, and I'll say one of the most years, and I'll say one of the most frustrating things I've come across is frustrating things I've come across is frustrating things I've come across is when you work on something for a few when you work on something for a few when you work on something for a few days, you submit that pull request, and days, you submit that pull request, and days, you submit that pull request, and then you find out that it's you were then you find out that it's you were then you find out that it's you were working on the wrong thing. Um, and it's working on the wrong thing. Um, and it's working on the wrong thing. Um, and it's even worse when you get that pull even worse when you get that pull even worse when you get that pull request from somebody else and you know, request from somebody else and you know, request from somebody else and you know, you have to be the bearer of bad news you have to be the bearer of bad news you have to be the bearer of bad news and let them know, hey, I think we got and let them know, hey, I think we got and let them know, hey, I think we got to redo all this. Like, nobody's happy to redo all this. Like, nobody's happy to redo all this. Like, nobody's happy in that situation. Um, so yeah, with uh in that situation. Um, so yeah, with uh in that situation. Um, so yeah, with uh with pairing, this sort of prevents all with pairing, this sort of prevents all with pairing, this sort of prevents all that from happening. And the other that from happening. And the other that from happening. And the other problem with that can be frustrating is problem with that can be frustrating is problem with that can be frustrating is even though pairing is really nice, it's even though pairing is really nice, it's even though pairing is really nice, it's really hard to get into that pairing really hard to get into that pairing really hard to get into that pairing session. you know, like you have to session. you know, like you have to session. you know, like you have to sometimes set up a meeting or message sometimes set up a meeting or message sometimes set up a meeting or message somebody on Slack and you know, just somebody on Slack and you know, just somebody on Slack and you know, just that social friction to get started that social friction to get started that social friction to get started sometimes just prevents people from sometimes just prevents people from sometimes just prevents people from doing it at all. So, you know, that's doing it at all. So, you know, that's doing it at all. So, you know, that's why I love Tupil so much. Um, you pull why I love Tupil so much. Um, you pull why I love Tupil so much. Um, you pull up your your your UI, you it's one click up your your your UI, you it's one click up your your your UI, you it's one click to call somebody and then just another to call somebody and then just another to call somebody and then just another click to start sharing your screen, click to start sharing your screen, click to start sharing your screen, you're immediately uh in the flow with you're immediately uh in the flow with you're immediately uh in the flow with somebody else. So, somebody else. So, somebody else. So, >> very cool. Folks can check it out at >> very cool. Folks can check it out at >> very cool. Folks can check it out at tupil.app. That's tuple.app.

tupil.app. That's tuple.app. tupil.app. That's tuple.app. It's the best remote pair programming It's the best remote pair programming It's the best remote pair programming app on both Mac and Windows. Hi, I'm app on both Mac and Windows. Hi, I'm app on both Mac and Windows. Hi, I'm Scott Hansselman. This is another Scott Hansselman. This is another Scott Hansselman. This is another episode of Hansel Minutes. Today I'm episode of Hansel Minutes. Today I'm episode of Hansel Minutes. Today I'm chatting with Safia Abdullah. She is a chatting with Safia Abdullah. She is a chatting with Safia Abdullah. She is a principal software engineer on.net at principal software engineer on.net at principal software engineer on.net at Microsoft. And I met you when you were Microsoft. And I met you when you were Microsoft. And I met you when you were at Northwestern. Is that right? at Northwestern. Is that right? at Northwestern. Is that right? >> Yes, that's where I went to college. >> Yes, that's where I went to college. >> Yes, that's where I went to college. >> Was that like over a decade ago? How >> Was that like over a decade ago? How >> Was that like over a decade ago? How long ago was that? long ago was that? long ago was that? >> Oh my gosh. Don't make me seem old, but >> Oh my gosh. Don't make me seem old, but >> Oh my gosh. Don't make me seem old, but yeah, it was over a decade ago. I think yeah, it was over a decade ago. I think yeah, it was over a decade ago. I think >> a tenth of a century ago. >> a tenth of a century ago. >> a tenth of a century ago. >> It was a while. It is it is long enough >> It was a while. It is it is long enough >> It was a while. It is it is long enough that I am shocked by the passage of time that I am shocked by the passage of time that I am shocked by the passage of time and how much has happened since we first and how much has happened since we first and how much has happened since we first met. But met. But met. But >> yeah, you're like a whole growing person >> yeah, you're like a whole growing person >> yeah, you're like a whole growing person now, now, now, >> right? There's wisdom, there's maturity, >> right? There's wisdom, there's maturity, >> right? There's wisdom, there's maturity, there's progress. Always growing. there's progress. Always growing. there's progress. Always growing. >> I have some gray hairs now. >> I have some gray hairs now. >> I have some gray hairs now. >> You do? You do have like three gray >> You do? You do have like three gray >> You do? You do have like three gray hairs. hairs. hairs. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I am going to put you on the spot >> I am going to put you on the spot >> I am going to put you on the spot because I thought it was funny when we because I thought it was funny when we because I thought it was funny when we got ready to record. I could tell you got ready to record. I could tell you got ready to record. I could tell you were focused on something else and I were focused on something else and I were focused on something else and I think you nerd sniped yourself. talk think you nerd sniped yourself. talk think you nerd sniped yourself. talk about what that feels like because I had about what that feels like because I had about what that feels like because I had that problem happen yesterday.

that problem happen yesterday. that problem happen yesterday. >> Oh gosh. You know, so I was sharing I've >> Oh gosh. You know, so I was sharing I've >> Oh gosh. You know, so I was sharing I've been prototyping and iterating on been prototyping and iterating on been prototyping and iterating on something and I feel like sometimes you something and I feel like sometimes you something and I feel like sometimes you have to rewrite a solution to a problem have to rewrite a solution to a problem have to rewrite a solution to a problem multiple times before you like get that multiple times before you like get that multiple times before you like get that nirvana. And so I was really close to my nirvana. And so I was really close to my nirvana. And so I was really close to my third rewrite of this thing that I'm third rewrite of this thing that I'm third rewrite of this thing that I'm working on. And I thought I was close to working on. And I thought I was close to working on. And I thought I was close to like getting a little bit closer to like getting a little bit closer to like getting a little bit closer to Nirvana. And um I was like, "Oh crap, I Nirvana. And um I was like, "Oh crap, I Nirvana. And um I was like, "Oh crap, I got to go jump into a meeting. Let's got to go jump into a meeting. Let's got to go jump into a meeting. Let's go." And so you have to like reorient go." And so you have to like reorient go." And so you have to like reorient yourself out of like the deep like work yourself out of like the deep like work yourself out of like the deep like work zone, which I get into, especially on a zone, which I get into, especially on a zone, which I get into, especially on a Wednesday morning where you don't like Wednesday morning where you don't like Wednesday morning where you don't like have that many meetings. It's Wednesday have that many meetings. It's Wednesday have that many meetings. It's Wednesday today. And so you could just kind of sit today. And so you could just kind of sit today. And so you could just kind of sit and code, and code, and code, >> catch a vibe, >> catch a vibe, >> catch a vibe, >> so to speak. >> so to speak. >> so to speak. >> Yep. My entire afternoon from you're my >> Yep. My entire afternoon from you're my >> Yep. My entire afternoon from you're my last meeting until 5. So I have four last meeting until 5. So I have four last meeting until 5. So I have four hours of coding ahead of me. hours of coding ahead of me. hours of coding ahead of me. >> I'm so happy for you. And and like >> I'm so happy for you. And and like >> I'm so happy for you. And and like yesterday I was I mentioned this on on yesterday I was I mentioned this on on yesterday I was I mentioned this on on blue sky that I hit the limit of free on blue sky that I hit the limit of free on blue sky that I hit the limit of free on GitHub actions because apparently GitHub actions because apparently GitHub actions because apparently there's a limit of like how many hours there's a limit of like how many hours there's a limit of like how many hours you can use and how many artifacts you you can use and how many artifacts you you can use and how many artifacts you can use but there's no way to see the can use but there's no way to see the can use but there's no way to see the artifacts. So I'm like I've never hit artifacts. So I'm like I've never hit artifacts. So I'm like I've never hit this limit before. What's going on? So I this limit before. What's going on? So I this limit before. What's going on? So I coded this GitHub artifacts analyzer and coded this GitHub artifacts analyzer and coded this GitHub artifacts analyzer and I got it all so I could go and find out I got it all so I could go and find out I got it all so I could go and find out and it turns out that one of my things and it turns out that one of my things and it turns out that one of my things was running too often and it was was running too often and it was was running too often and it was dropping 200 megs every time and I I hit dropping 200 megs every time and I I hit dropping 200 megs every time and I I hit the two gig limit. So I made a cleanup, the two gig limit. So I made a cleanup, the two gig limit. So I made a cleanup, you know, check disc for GitHub you know, check disc for GitHub you know, check disc for GitHub artifacts and I was right. And then I artifacts and I was right. And then I artifacts and I was right. And then I left and because my wife said, "We're left and because my wife said, "We're left and because my wife said, "We're going to dinner." And then while I'm at

going to dinner." And then while I'm at going to dinner." And then while I'm at dinner, people are like, "You didn't put dinner, people are like, "You didn't put dinner, people are like, "You didn't put it in the npm registry. You forgot to it in the npm registry. You forgot to it in the npm registry. You forgot to publish the tool. I don't want to clone publish the tool. I don't want to clone publish the tool. I don't want to clone it." You know, and I was just like, and it." You know, and I was just like, and it." You know, and I was just like, and I really wanted to concentrate on dinner I really wanted to concentrate on dinner I really wanted to concentrate on dinner with my wife. with my wife. with my wife. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> But you know, cuz it's like two things >> But you know, cuz it's like two things >> But you know, cuz it's like two things can be true. Like I love my wife, but I can be true. Like I love my wife, but I can be true. Like I love my wife, but I did not publish this tool to the npm did not publish this tool to the npm did not publish this tool to the npm registry. registry. registry. >> Yep. And do you get a look on your face >> Yep. And do you get a look on your face >> Yep. And do you get a look on your face when when that happens when you're still when when that happens when you're still when when that happens when you're still like nerd sniped? And my husband can like nerd sniped? And my husband can like nerd sniped? And my husband can always tell. He's like, I can tell always tell. He's like, I can tell always tell. He's like, I can tell you're thinking about something and you're thinking about something and you're thinking about something and you're you're not totally focused on you're you're not totally focused on you're you're not totally focused on this meal or this coffee or whatever. this meal or this coffee or whatever. this meal or this coffee or whatever. I'm like, yeah, I'm like, yeah, I'm like, yeah, >> everyone wants to give that a label and >> everyone wants to give that a label and >> everyone wants to give that a label and say that that's like, you know, autism say that that's like, you know, autism say that that's like, you know, autism or a personality. I think it's just or a personality. I think it's just or a personality. I think it's just programmers. It's just like that's just programmers. It's just like that's just programmers. It's just like that's just how we operate. I could not disconnect. how we operate. I could not disconnect. how we operate. I could not disconnect. And when I got back, it took like six And when I got back, it took like six And when I got back, it took like six minutes to publish the thing, but I minutes to publish the thing, but I minutes to publish the thing, but I needed to get it out of my brain. I needed to get it out of my brain. I needed to get it out of my brain. I think that's what makes that's what think that's what makes that's what think that's what makes that's what makes a good programmer. makes a good programmer. makes a good programmer. >> Yeah. I think you also have to know when >> Yeah. I think you also have to know when >> Yeah. I think you also have to know when to stop it though cuz I've definitely to stop it though cuz I've definitely to stop it though cuz I've definitely had those moments where I was had those moments where I was had those moments where I was >> holding on to a problem really hard and >> holding on to a problem really hard and >> holding on to a problem really hard and it was like 11:30 p.m. at night and I it was like 11:30 p.m. at night and I it was like 11:30 p.m. at night and I really should have gone to bed cuz you really should have gone to bed cuz you really should have gone to bed cuz you know know know >> eventually I do and the next morning I >> eventually I do and the next morning I >> eventually I do and the next morning I wake up and the solution that I couldn't wake up and the solution that I couldn't wake up and the solution that I couldn't see the night before is like super see the night before is like super see the night before is like super obvious in front of me. So yeah, obvious in front of me. So yeah, obvious in front of me. So yeah, figuring out when you pull yourself out figuring out when you pull yourself out figuring out when you pull yourself out from the zone and when you like keep in from the zone and when you like keep in from the zone and when you like keep in it and all that. It's um I think it it and all that. It's um I think it it and all that. It's um I think it evolves and it depends on the context evolves and it depends on the context evolves and it depends on the context too, but it's like it is a thing that too, but it's like it is a thing that too, but it's like it is a thing that programmers go through.

programmers go through. programmers go through. >> Have you always been wired that way? >> Have you always been wired that way? >> Have you always been wired that way? >> I think so. I think so. I People have >> I think so. I think so. I People have >> I think so. I think so. I People have different terms for it, right? I've different terms for it, right? I've different terms for it, right? I've heard people say flow state a lot, but I heard people say flow state a lot, but I heard people say flow state a lot, but I kind of like that experience of when you kind of like that experience of when you kind of like that experience of when you are trying to unravel a problem. It's are trying to unravel a problem. It's are trying to unravel a problem. It's like a big ball of yarn and you want to like a big ball of yarn and you want to like a big ball of yarn and you want to get to that like satisfaction get to that like satisfaction get to that like satisfaction it at the end. I've always been like it at the end. I've always been like it at the end. I've always been like that and I think that's what maybe also that and I think that's what maybe also that and I think that's what maybe also drew me to programming and kind of made drew me to programming and kind of made drew me to programming and kind of made it a natural fit is I had that like it a natural fit is I had that like it a natural fit is I had that like inclination to start and so I discovered inclination to start and so I discovered inclination to start and so I discovered this thing that happened to be a really this thing that happened to be a really this thing that happened to be a really good fit for that inclination. There's good fit for that inclination. There's good fit for that inclination. There's probably maybe other careers I could probably maybe other careers I could probably maybe other careers I could have had but have had but have had but >> programming is the one that satisfies >> programming is the one that satisfies >> programming is the one that satisfies that the most. An episode I've got that the most. An episode I've got that the most. An episode I've got coming up soon is uh with a gentleman coming up soon is uh with a gentleman coming up soon is uh with a gentleman named Bobby Lockheart who's a game named Bobby Lockheart who's a game named Bobby Lockheart who's a game designer and not just video games but designer and not just video games but designer and not just video games but any game board games. And he had this any game board games. And he had this any game board games. And he had this theory that it isn't fun unless you're theory that it isn't fun unless you're theory that it isn't fun unless you're learning. learning. learning. >> And that feeling that you have when you >> And that feeling that you have when you >> And that feeling that you have when you beat a boss or you do something in Elden beat a boss or you do something in Elden beat a boss or you do something in Elden Ring where it's like you attack the boss Ring where it's like you attack the boss Ring where it's like you attack the boss like a Dark Souls boss and you get like a Dark Souls boss and you get like a Dark Souls boss and you get destroyed and you like have a feeling of destroyed and you like have a feeling of destroyed and you like have a feeling of fear and then in 2 weeks your brain fear and then in 2 weeks your brain fear and then in 2 weeks your brain literally changes. It swells. the literally changes. It swells. the literally changes. It swells. the neurons re and then you're like, "Oh, I neurons re and then you're like, "Oh, I neurons re and then you're like, "Oh, I can solo this guy with my eyes closed."

can solo this guy with my eyes closed." can solo this guy with my eyes closed." I think the same thing happens when I think the same thing happens when I think the same thing happens when you're about to tack the big ball of you're about to tack the big ball of you're about to tack the big ball of yarn programming problem and then it's yarn programming problem and then it's yarn programming problem and then it's like, "Oh, no. I've done that. That's like, "Oh, no. I've done that. That's like, "Oh, no. I've done that. That's simple. Why was I even afraid of that?" simple. Why was I even afraid of that?" simple. Why was I even afraid of that?" >> Yeah. You know, it's interesting because >> Yeah. You know, it's interesting because >> Yeah. You know, it's interesting because it reminds me of a perspective shift it reminds me of a perspective shift it reminds me of a perspective shift that I had since we first met over a that I had since we first met over a that I had since we first met over a decade ago, which decade ago, which decade ago, which a lot of the wisdom that I got when I a lot of the wisdom that I got when I a lot of the wisdom that I got when I was um a wee little programmer and first was um a wee little programmer and first was um a wee little programmer and first entering the industry was like the fake entering the industry was like the fake entering the industry was like the fake it till you make it type of stuff, it till you make it type of stuff, it till you make it type of stuff, >> you know, >> you know, >> you know, >> and that never never settled with me cuz >> and that never never settled with me cuz >> and that never never settled with me cuz it I don't know, it felt inauthentic a it I don't know, it felt inauthentic a it I don't know, it felt inauthentic a little bit. I think what I learned little bit. I think what I learned little bit. I think what I learned having gone through experiences is that having gone through experiences is that having gone through experiences is that competence is the best way to build competence is the best way to build competence is the best way to build confidence. And what you need to do is confidence. And what you need to do is confidence. And what you need to do is find yourself in situations where you find yourself in situations where you find yourself in situations where you can take on those like big scary can take on those like big scary can take on those like big scary challenges, technical challenges where challenges, technical challenges where challenges, technical challenges where people will support and sponsor you if people will support and sponsor you if people will support and sponsor you if you need help getting through it or if you need help getting through it or if you need help getting through it or if you fail at it. But they will give you you fail at it. But they will give you you fail at it. But they will give you those opportunities so that you can those opportunities so that you can those opportunities so that you can succeed at the challenge and then you succeed at the challenge and then you succeed at the challenge and then you know you gain that not only satisfaction know you gain that not only satisfaction know you gain that not only satisfaction at solving the problem but sense of at solving the problem but sense of at solving the problem but sense of confidence that you could do it and then confidence that you could do it and then confidence that you could do it and then you get the next big challenge. And so you get the next big challenge. And so you get the next big challenge. And so my thinking about like what it means to, my thinking about like what it means to, my thinking about like what it means to, you know, not get over your imposttor you know, not get over your imposttor you know, not get over your imposttor syndrome, but maybe conquer it a little syndrome, but maybe conquer it a little syndrome, but maybe conquer it a little bit is you just kind of have to do hard bit is you just kind of have to do hard bit is you just kind of have to do hard things in supportive environments and things in supportive environments and things in supportive environments and strengthen your self-confidence through strengthen your self-confidence through strengthen your self-confidence through the repetition of that behavior. That's the repetition of that behavior. That's the repetition of that behavior. That's always kind of connecting those two

always kind of connecting those two always kind of connecting those two things. things. things. >> What do you think has changed in the >> What do you think has changed in the >> What do you think has changed in the industry though in the last 5 or 10 industry though in the last 5 or 10 industry though in the last 5 or 10 years? Because in the last 10 years, you years? Because in the last 10 years, you years? Because in the last 10 years, you did not quit. You did not leave the did not quit. You did not leave the did not quit. You did not leave the industry. You did not get chased out. industry. You did not get chased out. industry. You did not get chased out. You didn't give up. You didn't give up. You didn't give up. >> And now you can bring the next gen in. >> And now you can bring the next gen in. >> And now you can bring the next gen in. But it feels like there's a certain kind But it feels like there's a certain kind But it feels like there's a certain kind of early in career person right now of early in career person right now of early in career person right now that's getting kind of chewed up. that's getting kind of chewed up. that's getting kind of chewed up. >> Is it because the capitalism of us all >> Is it because the capitalism of us all >> Is it because the capitalism of us all is not giving us time to like let them is not giving us time to like let them is not giving us time to like let them cook? cook? cook? >> Yeah, this is so interesting because I I >> Yeah, this is so interesting because I I >> Yeah, this is so interesting because I I do a lot of mentorship now that I have do a lot of mentorship now that I have do a lot of mentorship now that I have wisdom to share since I've gotten so wisdom to share since I've gotten so wisdom to share since I've gotten so old. And a lot of my mentees are early old. And a lot of my mentees are early old. And a lot of my mentees are early and career individuals. And I think some and career individuals. And I think some and career individuals. And I think some of the people cropping up in the of the people cropping up in the of the people cropping up in the industry now, industry now, industry now, having come out of university or what having come out of university or what having come out of university or what have you, a lot of it is like have you, a lot of it is like have you, a lot of it is like compounding anxieties, I think, of all compounding anxieties, I think, of all compounding anxieties, I think, of all these different things you get hit with. these different things you get hit with. these different things you get hit with. There's this like AI thing going on. There's this like AI thing going on. There's this like AI thing going on. There's this supposed intensity of like There's this supposed intensity of like There's this supposed intensity of like how hard these um leak codes that you how hard these um leak codes that you how hard these um leak codes that you have to do to get a job at are. There's have to do to get a job at are. There's have to do to get a job at are. There's the kind of mental shift of, you know, the kind of mental shift of, you know, the kind of mental shift of, you know, you spend your entire life through you spend your entire life through you spend your entire life through school kind of being graded on a school kind of being graded on a school kind of being graded on a standard and then you go work at a standard and then you go work at a standard and then you go work at a company. It's like, what the hell do I company. It's like, what the hell do I company. It's like, what the hell do I do? I'm supposed to be progressing in my do? I'm supposed to be progressing in my do? I'm supposed to be progressing in my career or doing things, but you don't career or doing things, but you don't career or doing things, but you don't really have like a structure. There's no really have like a structure. There's no really have like a structure. There's no like rubric for how you're supposed to like rubric for how you're supposed to like rubric for how you're supposed to succeed in your career. So, I think it's succeed in your career. So, I think it's succeed in your career. So, I think it's those like compounding anxieties from a those like compounding anxieties from a those like compounding anxieties from a lot of the ambiguity with what's going lot of the ambiguity with what's going lot of the ambiguity with what's going on right now. And it's kind of hard to

on right now. And it's kind of hard to on right now. And it's kind of hard to coach some of my mentees through all of coach some of my mentees through all of coach some of my mentees through all of that that that in a way that's like empathetic that in a way that's like empathetic that in a way that's like empathetic that some things are like outside of your some things are like outside of your some things are like outside of your control and you kind of have to make control and you kind of have to make control and you kind of have to make peace or kind of react to it. peace or kind of react to it. peace or kind of react to it. >> One of the things that I'm trying to do >> One of the things that I'm trying to do >> One of the things that I'm trying to do is think about where I am and who I am is think about where I am and who I am is think about where I am and who I am and why I know these things so that I and why I know these things so that I and why I know these things so that I can help them with can help them with can help them with with an with a with an awareness of with an with a with an awareness of with an with a with an awareness of where I'm at. because I don't want to where I'm at. because I don't want to where I'm at. because I don't want to just be like, "Why do you not know just be like, "Why do you not know just be like, "Why do you not know this?" Like, "Are you how do you not this?" Like, "Are you how do you not this?" Like, "Are you how do you not know this?" And it's like, "Well, I know know this?" And it's like, "Well, I know know this?" And it's like, "Well, I know this cuz I've been here a long time." this cuz I've been here a long time." this cuz I've been here a long time." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And they can't know that cuz they >> And they can't know that cuz they >> And they can't know that cuz they haven't been here a long time. So, is it haven't been here a long time. So, is it haven't been here a long time. So, is it simply waiting? So, when I think about simply waiting? So, when I think about simply waiting? So, when I think about stuff like I would, you know, I could stuff like I would, you know, I could stuff like I would, you know, I could meet a senior engineer and then I meet a senior engineer and then I meet a senior engineer and then I realize that realize that realize that >> I don't think this person understands >> I don't think this person understands >> I don't think this person understands how HTTP works. how HTTP works. how HTTP works. >> And it's not a it's not a judgment call. >> And it's not a it's not a judgment call. >> And it's not a it's not a judgment call. It's not a this is not a smart person. It's not a this is not a smart person. It's not a this is not a smart person. It's just that they never really got It's just that they never really got It's just that they never really got into the weeds. Yeah. into the weeds. Yeah. into the weeds. Yeah. >> And sat in Fiddler or Wire Shark. So >> And sat in Fiddler or Wire Shark. So >> And sat in Fiddler or Wire Shark. So it's like if they never had that it's like if they never had that it's like if they never had that opportunity, they never would get it. So opportunity, they never would get it. So opportunity, they never would get it. So if somebody comes out of, as an example, if somebody comes out of, as an example, if somebody comes out of, as an example, Northwestern and they're suddenly Northwestern and they're suddenly Northwestern and they're suddenly they're they're 22, how could they know they're they're 22, how could they know they're they're 22, how could they know that? There wasn't a it's always DNS that? There wasn't a it's always DNS that? There wasn't a it's always DNS class at Northwestern.

class at Northwestern. class at Northwestern. >> Yeah, there was a very interesting >> Yeah, there was a very interesting >> Yeah, there was a very interesting networking class. But again, there's the networking class. But again, there's the networking class. But again, there's the leap you have to take from like leap you have to take from like leap you have to take from like theoretical stuff that you learn in theoretical stuff that you learn in theoretical stuff that you learn in school to like the in practice stuff school to like the in practice stuff school to like the in practice stuff that you learn at work. And I think it that you learn at work. And I think it that you learn at work. And I think it goes back to the thing I was describing goes back to the thing I was describing goes back to the thing I was describing about building confidence through about building confidence through about building confidence through competence in supportive environments. competence in supportive environments. competence in supportive environments. It's like the supportive environments is It's like the supportive environments is It's like the supportive environments is the big thing. So a lot of what I do for the big thing. So a lot of what I do for the big thing. So a lot of what I do for people who are early in career is being people who are early in career is being people who are early in career is being that person who maybe the other, you that person who maybe the other, you that person who maybe the other, you know, principal I see is on their direct know, principal I see is on their direct know, principal I see is on their direct team. they don't feel comfortable team. they don't feel comfortable team. they don't feel comfortable showing them their code or they haven't showing them their code or they haven't showing them their code or they haven't kind of established that camaraderie or kind of established that camaraderie or kind of established that camaraderie or vibe or trust which you know is a vibe or trust which you know is a vibe or trust which you know is a two-way street and I put the onus mostly two-way street and I put the onus mostly two-way street and I put the onus mostly on them or senior engineer to figure out on them or senior engineer to figure out on them or senior engineer to figure out how do you build a good relationship how do you build a good relationship how do you build a good relationship with your with junior engineers on your with your with junior engineers on your with your with junior engineers on your team. So when that relationship is is team. So when that relationship is is team. So when that relationship is is lacking for them, I'm kind of the person lacking for them, I'm kind of the person lacking for them, I'm kind of the person they can go to and like run their PR they can go to and like run their PR they can go to and like run their PR past before they open it up for review past before they open it up for review past before they open it up for review by their team or if they have a question by their team or if they have a question by their team or if they have a question about code and they're not sure how to about code and they're not sure how to about code and they're not sure how to formulate it or how to structure it to, formulate it or how to structure it to, formulate it or how to structure it to, you know, somebody on their direct team you know, somebody on their direct team you know, somebody on their direct team they might be nervous about speaking they might be nervous about speaking they might be nervous about speaking with. Being kind of that supportive with. Being kind of that supportive with. Being kind of that supportive environment for somebody when it's not environment for somebody when it's not environment for somebody when it's not there directly on their team I find there directly on their team I find there directly on their team I find helps. You just said that you put the helps. You just said that you put the helps. You just said that you put the honest on the senior, which I think is honest on the senior, which I think is honest on the senior, which I think is important because I feel like there's so important because I feel like there's so important because I feel like there's so many internship programs and mentorship many internship programs and mentorship many internship programs and mentorship programs and apprenticeship programs.

programs and apprenticeship programs. programs and apprenticeship programs. And this is something I'm kicking around And this is something I'm kicking around And this is something I'm kicking around and Mark Rinovich and I have written a and Mark Rinovich and I have written a and Mark Rinovich and I have written a paper on this that I think if you call paper on this that I think if you call paper on this that I think if you call it an internship or an apprenticeship, it an internship or an apprenticeship, it an internship or an apprenticeship, it puts inordinate pressure on the early it puts inordinate pressure on the early it puts inordinate pressure on the early and career person to pull themselves up. and career person to pull themselves up. and career person to pull themselves up. >> Yeah. when it should literally be my job >> Yeah. when it should literally be my job >> Yeah. when it should literally be my job and your job as the senior people to and your job as the senior people to and your job as the senior people to send the ladder back down and pull them send the ladder back down and pull them send the ladder back down and pull them up. up. up. >> So like the whole pull yourself up by >> So like the whole pull yourself up by >> So like the whole pull yourself up by your own bootstraps is a fun thing to your own bootstraps is a fun thing to your own bootstraps is a fun thing to say, but from a physics perspective, it say, but from a physics perspective, it say, but from a physics perspective, it literally doesn't work. Like you can't literally doesn't work. Like you can't literally doesn't work. Like you can't physically pull yourself up by your physically pull yourself up by your physically pull yourself up by your bootstraps. bootstraps. bootstraps. >> That resonates with me. And this is >> That resonates with me. And this is >> That resonates with me. And this is something I say when, you know, I'm something I say when, you know, I'm something I say when, you know, I'm speaking with mentees and they're maybe speaking with mentees and they're maybe speaking with mentees and they're maybe expressing frustration or like expressing frustration or like expressing frustration or like insecurity at somebody that is more insecurity at somebody that is more insecurity at somebody that is more senior on their team that they're senior on their team that they're senior on their team that they're working with. It's like it's not your working with. It's like it's not your working with. It's like it's not your fault to have to do the work to kind of fault to have to do the work to kind of fault to have to do the work to kind of build the sense of like psychological build the sense of like psychological build the sense of like psychological safety and trust on your team. It's the safety and trust on your team. It's the safety and trust on your team. It's the person who's been there for 10 years, 15 person who's been there for 10 years, 15 person who's been there for 10 years, 15 years, 5 years, however long it may be. years, 5 years, however long it may be. years, 5 years, however long it may be. And I think another aspect to it and And I think another aspect to it and And I think another aspect to it and it's important for senior engineers to it's important for senior engineers to it's important for senior engineers to think about it is like if you want to think about it is like if you want to think about it is like if you want to maintain a code base that is healthy or maintain a code base that is healthy or maintain a code base that is healthy or like a service that you know has high up like a service that you know has high up like a service that you know has high up time or an open source project that is time or an open source project that is time or an open source project that is um you know going to have longevity. You um you know going to have longevity. You um you know going to have longevity. You have to think about how you maintain and have to think about how you maintain and have to think about how you maintain and grow the people as much as you maintain grow the people as much as you maintain grow the people as much as you maintain and grow the code. Like that's kind of and grow the code. Like that's kind of and grow the code. Like that's kind of like part and parcel of the job. But like part and parcel of the job. But like part and parcel of the job. But some of those squishy things are hard to some of those squishy things are hard to some of those squishy things are hard to like like like communicate sometimes their value, you

communicate sometimes their value, you communicate sometimes their value, you know. know. know. >> Yeah. When I when I met you when you >> Yeah. When I when I met you when you >> Yeah. When I when I met you when you were in school, you stood out because were in school, you stood out because were in school, you stood out because you were doing open source and running you were doing open source and running you were doing open source and running communities already. communities already. communities already. >> And I feel like somewhere like April of >> And I feel like somewhere like April of >> And I feel like somewhere like April of senior year, I see a lot of people go, I senior year, I see a lot of people go, I senior year, I see a lot of people go, I should probably get involved. should probably get involved. should probably get involved. >> And I'm like, it's a little late. Like >> And I'm like, it's a little late. Like >> And I'm like, it's a little late. Like not a little late, little late. It's not not a little late, little late. It's not not a little late, little late. It's not literally literally, but it's like gosh, literally literally, but it's like gosh, literally literally, but it's like gosh, like April of senior year is probably like April of senior year is probably like April of senior year is probably not when you want to join the community. not when you want to join the community. not when you want to join the community. How did you discover open source? And at How did you discover open source? And at How did you discover open source? And at that time, you were doing Python and that time, you were doing Python and that time, you were doing Python and notebooks and interact. notebooks and interact. notebooks and interact. >> Yes. I started contributing to open >> Yes. I started contributing to open >> Yes. I started contributing to open source in earnest the summer of 2015. source in earnest the summer of 2015. source in earnest the summer of 2015. So, it's been going on like a straight So, it's been going on like a straight So, it's been going on like a straight decade of different things in open decade of different things in open decade of different things in open source. And I've, you know, had periods source. And I've, you know, had periods source. And I've, you know, had periods where I wasn't contributing to things, where I wasn't contributing to things, where I wasn't contributing to things, but let's call it a decade. And I kind but let's call it a decade. And I kind but let's call it a decade. And I kind of found it through my interest in of found it through my interest in of found it through my interest in Python, my early interest in like data Python, my early interest in like data Python, my early interest in like data science and the scientific Python stack. science and the scientific Python stack. science and the scientific Python stack. And I was I was using a lot of the And I was I was using a lot of the And I was I was using a lot of the open-source tools just for class or side open-source tools just for class or side open-source tools just for class or side projects or my own independent learning.

projects or my own independent learning. projects or my own independent learning. Where I made the jump to like starting Where I made the jump to like starting Where I made the jump to like starting to contribute was a couple of things. to contribute was a couple of things. to contribute was a couple of things. One of them, we might have talked about One of them, we might have talked about One of them, we might have talked about this before, was a program called Wright this before, was a program called Wright this before, was a program called Wright Speak Code. And it was um a like dayong Speak Code. And it was um a like dayong Speak Code. And it was um a like dayong workshop series that they would run in workshop series that they would run in workshop series that they would run in different cities and it was aimed at different cities and it was aimed at different cities and it was aimed at technical women in their career and they technical women in their career and they technical women in their career and they would talk about how it was important would talk about how it was important would talk about how it was important for you to demonstrate your competence for you to demonstrate your competence for you to demonstrate your competence by you know writing blogs contributing by you know writing blogs contributing by you know writing blogs contributing to open source and speaking at to open source and speaking at to open source and speaking at conferences and those were like when we conferences and those were like when we conferences and those were like when we met almost a decade ago those were all met almost a decade ago those were all met almost a decade ago those were all things that I was doing and that was things that I was doing and that was things that I was doing and that was primarily because it like clicked for me primarily because it like clicked for me primarily because it like clicked for me it's like okay you have to kind of go it's like okay you have to kind of go it's like okay you have to kind of go and share your wisdom and writing and share your wisdom and writing and share your wisdom and writing speaking and contrib buting to open speaking and contrib buting to open speaking and contrib buting to open source or how you do that. So that's source or how you do that. So that's source or how you do that. So that's what kind of got me thinking about like, what kind of got me thinking about like, what kind of got me thinking about like, okay, I'm using these tools. I'm okay, I'm using these tools. I'm okay, I'm using these tools. I'm learning all about them. How can I start learning all about them. How can I start learning all about them. How can I start start to share that? And so that was start to share that? And so that was start to share that? And so that was what started me contributing. And I what started me contributing. And I what started me contributing. And I opened my first PR on the Pandas opened my first PR on the Pandas opened my first PR on the Pandas project, the Python Pandas project. Um, project, the Python Pandas project. Um, project, the Python Pandas project. Um, this like my first official open source this like my first official open source this like my first official open source contribution. And then it's like a contribution. And then it's like a contribution. And then it's like a gateway drug. You just like once you get gateway drug. You just like once you get gateway drug. You just like once you get in and you start you figure out like the in and you start you figure out like the in and you start you figure out like the process, you can apply it to so many process, you can apply it to so many process, you can apply it to so many things. Um, and I think the other key things. Um, and I think the other key things. Um, and I think the other key thing is I was able to connect with thing is I was able to connect with thing is I was able to connect with people in real life who wanted to people in real life who wanted to people in real life who wanted to encourage me to contribute. There's like encourage me to contribute. There's like encourage me to contribute. There's like tons of spaces where people will do like tons of spaces where people will do like tons of spaces where people will do like open source hackathons or if you go to a open source hackathons or if you go to a open source hackathons or if you go to a conference there'll be like sprints like conference there'll be like sprints like conference there'll be like sprints like I know Python does this a ton where I know Python does this a ton where I know Python does this a ton where there'll be coding sprints and you can there'll be coding sprints and you can there'll be coding sprints and you can kind of find physical spaces to

kind of find physical spaces to kind of find physical spaces to contribute. So that was another thing contribute. So that was another thing contribute. So that was another thing that motivated me and kept me going is that motivated me and kept me going is that motivated me and kept me going is you figure out the technical part and you figure out the technical part and you figure out the technical part and then you get connected with the people then you get connected with the people then you get connected with the people and then like the two get married and and then like the two get married and and then like the two get married and it's like it's like it's like >> kind of nirvana. You work with smart >> kind of nirvana. You work with smart >> kind of nirvana. You work with smart people on interesting things and it's people on interesting things and it's people on interesting things and it's way funner than doing your like college way funner than doing your like college way funner than doing your like college CS homework. CS homework. CS homework. >> Hey friends, this is Scott. I want to >> Hey friends, this is Scott. I want to >> Hey friends, this is Scott. I want to take a moment to thank our sponsor Code take a moment to thank our sponsor Code take a moment to thank our sponsor Code Rabbit. You know, I was chatting with Rabbit. You know, I was chatting with Rabbit. You know, I was chatting with Araven from Code Rabbit about bugs that Araven from Code Rabbit about bugs that Araven from Code Rabbit about bugs that slip into production. The whole point of slip into production. The whole point of slip into production. The whole point of a code review is to not have bugs ship a code review is to not have bugs ship a code review is to not have bugs ship into production. How is Code Rabbit into production. How is Code Rabbit into production. How is Code Rabbit going to help me catch those bugs early? going to help me catch those bugs early? going to help me catch those bugs early? Absolutely, Scott. Code Rabbit Absolutely, Scott. Code Rabbit Absolutely, Scott. Code Rabbit automatically learns uh popular static automatically learns uh popular static automatically learns uh popular static analyzers, llinters, and several code analyzers, llinters, and several code analyzers, llinters, and several code security tools. We run it in in security tools. We run it in in security tools. We run it in in combination with generative AI reasoning combination with generative AI reasoning combination with generative AI reasoning models. We also add uh a specific uh models. We also add uh a specific uh models. We also add uh a specific uh technique called code graph analysis or technique called code graph analysis or technique called code graph analysis or use a better for a better understanding use a better for a better understanding use a better for a better understanding we use as graph analysis to kind of like we use as graph analysis to kind of like we use as graph analysis to kind of like develop a deeper code understanding and develop a deeper code understanding and develop a deeper code understanding and uh deliver the best-in-class code review uh deliver the best-in-class code review uh deliver the best-in-class code review feedback right in your PR context.

feedback right in your PR context. feedback right in your PR context. All of that context and all of that All of that context and all of that All of that context and all of that expertise and that intelligence is all expertise and that intelligence is all expertise and that intelligence is all encapsulated within the code review encapsulated within the code review encapsulated within the code review tool. You can sign up for free, get a tool. You can sign up for free, get a tool. You can sign up for free, get a free trial, no credit card needed at free trial, no credit card needed at free trial, no credit card needed at coder rabbit.ai. coder rabbit.ai. coder rabbit.ai. It's just two clicks to sign up for It's just two clicks to sign up for It's just two clicks to sign up for GitHub or GitLab. I encourage you to GitHub or GitLab. I encourage you to GitHub or GitLab. I encourage you to check it out. Give it a moment of your check it out. Give it a moment of your check it out. Give it a moment of your time and cut your code review time and time and cut your code review time and time and cut your code review time and your bugs in half. Big thanks to Code your bugs in half. Big thanks to Code your bugs in half. Big thanks to Code Rabbit. They are at rabbit.ai. Rabbit. They are at rabbit.ai. Rabbit. They are at rabbit.ai. >> Yeah, there it's interesting though that >> Yeah, there it's interesting though that >> Yeah, there it's interesting though that there are like all these different there are like all these different there are like all these different flavors and personalities of people flavors and personalities of people flavors and personalities of people involved in tech and there are those involved in tech and there are those involved in tech and there are those that like hide out in their room. They that like hide out in their room. They that like hide out in their room. They do their thing and they code and then do their thing and they code and then do their thing and they code and then they're it's a oneperson team they're it's a oneperson team they're it's a oneperson team >> and then there's kind of social coders. >> and then there's kind of social coders. >> and then there's kind of social coders. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I think you're a good mix of both >> And I think you're a good mix of both >> And I think you're a good mix of both because you will disappear for days because you will disappear for days because you will disappear for days >> but then you also pair program and you >> but then you also pair program and you >> but then you also pair program and you will sit in front of a whiteboard with will sit in front of a whiteboard with will sit in front of a whiteboard with the best of them. Is that two sides of the best of them. Is that two sides of the best of them. Is that two sides of the same personality that you've got? the same personality that you've got? the same personality that you've got? >> I think it depends on >> I think it depends on >> I think it depends on what part of the nerd snip thing you what part of the nerd snip thing you what part of the nerd snip thing you find me in. There's definitely a part of find me in. There's definitely a part of find me in. There's definitely a part of me that, you know, I need to think me that, you know, I need to think me that, you know, I need to think deeply and synthesize a bunch of things deeply and synthesize a bunch of things deeply and synthesize a bunch of things and just like dig into something before and just like dig into something before and just like dig into something before I'm ready to kind of understand what I'm ready to kind of understand what I'm ready to kind of understand what people are saying. Like it's people are saying. Like it's people are saying. Like it's interesting, we were talking about early interesting, we were talking about early interesting, we were talking about early in career and I think um I'm drawing a in career and I think um I'm drawing a in career and I think um I'm drawing a connection to an experience that early connection to an experience that early connection to an experience that early in career people might have and that I in career people might have and that I in career people might have and that I still have when I'm in a new space or still have when I'm in a new space or still have when I'm in a new space or working on something new. It's like working on something new. It's like working on something new. It's like there's a bunch of people in the room there's a bunch of people in the room there's a bunch of people in the room talking about something and you have no

talking about something and you have no talking about something and you have no idea what they're saying. Um, and so in idea what they're saying. Um, and so in idea what they're saying. Um, and so in moments like those, I feel like I have moments like those, I feel like I have moments like those, I feel like I have to kind of go whole up and figure it out to kind of go whole up and figure it out to kind of go whole up and figure it out myself. Um, and then once I've reached a myself. Um, and then once I've reached a myself. Um, and then once I've reached a certain amount of certain amount of certain amount of competence and confidence in an area, competence and confidence in an area, competence and confidence in an area, it's like, okay, now I feel like I can it's like, okay, now I feel like I can it's like, okay, now I feel like I can start to engage because I understand start to engage because I understand start to engage because I understand what people are saying and how I' I've what people are saying and how I' I've what people are saying and how I' I've mapped their opinions into my own mapped their opinions into my own mapped their opinions into my own understanding of the thing. And so yeah, understanding of the thing. And so yeah, understanding of the thing. And so yeah, I I kind of jump between the two I I kind of jump between the two I I kind of jump between the two depending on depending on depending on how well I feel I can navigate a how well I feel I can navigate a how well I feel I can navigate a technical conversation which is like a technical conversation which is like a technical conversation which is like a skill. skill. skill. >> I feel I I feel 70% of the time I do >> I feel I I feel 70% of the time I do >> I feel I I feel 70% of the time I do okay. But then I'll be in a room with okay. But then I'll be in a room with okay. But then I'll be in a room with Rasenovich or you know someone and then Rasenovich or you know someone and then Rasenovich or you know someone and then they'll mention some paper some PhD they'll mention some paper some PhD they'll mention some paper some PhD paper that apparently paper that apparently paper that apparently >> they were reading on the weekend while I >> they were reading on the weekend while I >> they were reading on the weekend while I was watching Dexter and I'm just like was watching Dexter and I'm just like was watching Dexter and I'm just like hey did you read that paper that came hey did you read that paper that came hey did you read that paper that came out about like the new way of thinking out about like the new way of thinking out about like the new way of thinking about word vectors and I'm like uh no about word vectors and I'm like uh no about word vectors and I'm like uh no you know or like you know they've got a you know or like you know they've got a you know or like you know they've got a PhD and I didn't do a graduate degree so PhD and I didn't do a graduate degree so PhD and I didn't do a graduate degree so then I'm like I don't know if I have the then I'm like I don't know if I have the then I'm like I don't know if I have the math to understand math to understand math to understand >> this thing. I think another skill you >> this thing. I think another skill you >> this thing. I think another skill you mentioned that is when you find mentioned that is when you find mentioned that is when you find yourselves in those moments and you yourselves in those moments and you yourselves in those moments and you can't just like go hide out and like try can't just like go hide out and like try can't just like go hide out and like try and figure it out yourself is like how and figure it out yourself is like how and figure it out yourself is like how do you engage people in a discussion?

do you engage people in a discussion? do you engage people in a discussion? >> And this is something that back to the >> And this is something that back to the >> And this is something that back to the early in career thing. It's like okay, early in career thing. It's like okay, early in career thing. It's like okay, you don't know something. People are you don't know something. People are you don't know something. People are throwing words at you. You're having throwing words at you. You're having throwing words at you. You're having trouble understanding the big picture. trouble understanding the big picture. trouble understanding the big picture. How do you ask the question to like get How do you ask the question to like get How do you ask the question to like get people to talk or explain things in a people to talk or explain things in a people to talk or explain things in a way that makes sense to you? And I think way that makes sense to you? And I think way that makes sense to you? And I think also another thing I've been speaking also another thing I've been speaking also another thing I've been speaking with mentees about is like how to use um with mentees about is like how to use um with mentees about is like how to use um LLM and all of these different tools LLM and all of these different tools LLM and all of these different tools that we have to kind of develop your that we have to kind of develop your that we have to kind of develop your understanding of something. So you know understanding of something. So you know understanding of something. So you know as you're sitting in a team's meeting as you're sitting in a team's meeting as you're sitting in a team's meeting and people are throwing around words and and people are throwing around words and and people are throwing around words and you're trying to develop your you're trying to develop your you're trying to develop your understanding, you could do that on the understanding, you could do that on the understanding, you could do that on the side and like contribute to the side and like contribute to the side and like contribute to the conversation. So, I think conversation. So, I think conversation. So, I think knowing how to take ownership of those knowing how to take ownership of those knowing how to take ownership of those moments where you don't know what the moments where you don't know what the moments where you don't know what the heck somebody's talking about and like heck somebody's talking about and like heck somebody's talking about and like turn it into a learning opportunity for turn it into a learning opportunity for turn it into a learning opportunity for yourself and others. yourself and others. yourself and others. Another thing I've learned to do over Another thing I've learned to do over Another thing I've learned to do over the past 10 years, the past 10 years, the past 10 years, >> this this paper I mentioned that Mark >> this this paper I mentioned that Mark >> this this paper I mentioned that Mark and I are working on where it puts a and I are working on where it puts a and I are working on where it puts a little bit more honest on the senior. little bit more honest on the senior. little bit more honest on the senior. Also, we believe that LLMs are allowing Also, we believe that LLMs are allowing Also, we believe that LLMs are allowing senior engineers to get even better, senior engineers to get even better, senior engineers to get even better, which is stressing juniors out because which is stressing juniors out because which is stressing juniors out because the juniors are still at the kind of the juniors are still at the kind of the juniors are still at the kind of autocomplete part of the LLM or they're autocomplete part of the LLM or they're autocomplete part of the LLM or they're at the vibe coding part where they vibe at the vibe coding part where they vibe at the vibe coding part where they vibe it and then they vibe a whole app and it and then they vibe a whole app and it and then they vibe a whole app and it's too much. It's like, no, it just it's too much. It's like, no, it just it's too much. It's like, no, it just did all my work. So, the junior did all my work. So, the junior did all my work. So, the junior experience is I don't, this is a theory, experience is I don't, this is a theory, experience is I don't, this is a theory, I don't know what this just I don't know what this just I don't know what this just autocompleted. I guess I'll go with it.

autocompleted. I guess I'll go with it. autocompleted. I guess I'll go with it. or the vibe the whole thing. I don't or the vibe the whole thing. I don't or the vibe the whole thing. I don't really understand the system. So, they really understand the system. So, they really understand the system. So, they don't even know what question to ask. don't even know what question to ask. don't even know what question to ask. Well, I'm feeling accelerated probably Well, I'm feeling accelerated probably Well, I'm feeling accelerated probably 25 to 50%. Once I know the right 25 to 50%. Once I know the right 25 to 50%. Once I know the right question. question. question. >> Yeah, that's like an interesting chicken >> Yeah, that's like an interesting chicken >> Yeah, that's like an interesting chicken and egg problem where you have this tool and egg problem where you have this tool and egg problem where you have this tool that really accelerates your ability to that really accelerates your ability to that really accelerates your ability to build things, but you have to like know build things, but you have to like know build things, but you have to like know a lot to know how to use the tool. a lot to know how to use the tool. a lot to know how to use the tool. >> Exactly. And I think one of the >> Exactly. And I think one of the >> Exactly. And I think one of the interesting things you mentioned is interesting things you mentioned is interesting things you mentioned is and I I bring it up because I think this and I I bring it up because I think this and I I bring it up because I think this is a skill that I have seen is a skill that I have seen is a skill that I have seen more senior engineers tend to have by more senior engineers tend to have by more senior engineers tend to have by virtue of having more experience virtue of having more experience virtue of having more experience compared to juniors is knowing when you compared to juniors is knowing when you compared to juniors is knowing when you toggle away from vibe coding and take toggle away from vibe coding and take toggle away from vibe coding and take more ownership of the process like when more ownership of the process like when more ownership of the process like when is the right place for the human to get is the right place for the human to get is the right place for the human to get interjected into the thing and requires interjected into the thing and requires interjected into the thing and requires a little bit of like confidence and a little bit of like confidence and a little bit of like confidence and understanding of what's going on. I understanding of what's going on. I understanding of what's going on. I think one of the pieces of advice that I think one of the pieces of advice that I think one of the pieces of advice that I give to some of my mentees who've give to some of my mentees who've give to some of my mentees who've expressed similar things of like we're expressed similar things of like we're expressed similar things of like we're being told to use these tools but I being told to use these tools but I being told to use these tools but I don't know what I'm doing. I'm using don't know what I'm doing. I'm using don't know what I'm doing. I'm using autocomplete. Is that enough? What's autocomplete. Is that enough? What's autocomplete. Is that enough? What's agent mode? all of these things is agent mode? all of these things is agent mode? all of these things is start with the smallest increment and start with the smallest increment and start with the smallest increment and that practice of be comfortable that practice of be comfortable that practice of be comfortable throwing away everything the agent gives throwing away everything the agent gives throwing away everything the agent gives you and reprompting like never accept you and reprompting like never accept you and reprompting like never accept the first thing and see okay wait a the first thing and see okay wait a the first thing and see okay wait a minute the first time I called it it minute the first time I called it it minute the first time I called it it generated this class structure and the generated this class structure and the generated this class structure and the second time I called it it looked like second time I called it it looked like second time I called it it looked like this and so start to kind of develop this and so start to kind of develop this and so start to kind of develop your understanding of the different

your understanding of the different your understanding of the different patterns patterns patterns and use it as an iterative learning tool and use it as an iterative learning tool and use it as an iterative learning tool where you're not like leaning at it as a where you're not like leaning at it as a where you're not like leaning at it as a crutch to just, you know, write a bunch crutch to just, you know, write a bunch crutch to just, you know, write a bunch of code that you open a PR, but kind of of code that you open a PR, but kind of of code that you open a PR, but kind of understand the different ways you might understand the different ways you might understand the different ways you might do something and and iterate on it. A do something and and iterate on it. A do something and and iterate on it. A lot of it's being a good code tester, lot of it's being a good code tester, lot of it's being a good code tester, too. too. too. >> Yeah. And also having I always talked >> Yeah. And also having I always talked >> Yeah. And also having I always talked about the sense of code smell that one about the sense of code smell that one about the sense of code smell that one develops where I don't need to develops where I don't need to develops where I don't need to understand Rust perfectly or TypeScript understand Rust perfectly or TypeScript understand Rust perfectly or TypeScript perfectly, but I can know that doesn't perfectly, but I can know that doesn't perfectly, but I can know that doesn't smell right. smell right. smell right. >> That thing doesn't feel good. And just >> That thing doesn't feel good. And just >> That thing doesn't feel good. And just be and and just because I don't know be and and just because I don't know be and and just because I don't know what I'm doing doesn't mean that the LLM what I'm doing doesn't mean that the LLM what I'm doing doesn't mean that the LLM does, right? Like I'm coding with this does, right? Like I'm coding with this does, right? Like I'm coding with this pair programmer that's really just a pair programmer that's really just a pair programmer that's really just a smart parrot smart parrot smart parrot >> and it's going to generate weird stuff >> and it's going to generate weird stuff >> and it's going to generate weird stuff every time and I don't have to take any every time and I don't have to take any every time and I don't have to take any of those suggestions. of those suggestions. of those suggestions. >> Y >> Y >> Y >> I'm rolling the dice each time. >> I'm rolling the dice each time. >> I'm rolling the dice each time. >> Yeah. And this is an interesting thing >> Yeah. And this is an interesting thing >> Yeah. And this is an interesting thing too for the industry because I feel like too for the industry because I feel like too for the industry because I feel like a lot of our, a lot of our, a lot of our, you know, interview techniques, a lot of you know, interview techniques, a lot of you know, interview techniques, a lot of what we do in school academically is what we do in school academically is what we do in school academically is focused on producing code. There's not a focused on producing code. There's not a focused on producing code. There's not a ton out there that's focused on ton out there that's focused on ton out there that's focused on reviewing code and that's like the more reviewing code and that's like the more reviewing code and that's like the more important skill if you start to do more important skill if you start to do more important skill if you start to do more things with AI. And so I'm it'll be things with AI. And so I'm it'll be things with AI. And so I'm it'll be interesting to see how the like hiring interesting to see how the like hiring interesting to see how the like hiring pipeline and how education changes in pipeline and how education changes in pipeline and how education changes in reaction to that. Like is there now reaction to that. Like is there now reaction to that. Like is there now going to be like a code review class at going to be like a code review class at going to be like a code review class at a university? Is that going to be a university? Is that going to be a university? Is that going to be something that you'll see kind of in an something that you'll see kind of in an something that you'll see kind of in an interview loop where you get a bunch of

interview loop where you get a bunch of interview loop where you get a bunch of code from an LLM and you got to spot the code from an LLM and you got to spot the code from an LLM and you got to spot the code spells? code spells? code spells? >> Feels like that is competency that like >> Feels like that is competency that like >> Feels like that is competency that like we want to start like training and we want to start like training and we want to start like training and testing people for. testing people for. testing people for. >> You know, I've always disliked elite >> You know, I've always disliked elite >> You know, I've always disliked elite coding stuff where it's I think it you coding stuff where it's I think it you coding stuff where it's I think it you get just a certain kind of personality. get just a certain kind of personality. get just a certain kind of personality. you're just asking for a certain human. you're just asking for a certain human. you're just asking for a certain human. >> If you're like, "Come here and grind out >> If you're like, "Come here and grind out >> If you're like, "Come here and grind out these leak codes and then we'll hire these leak codes and then we'll hire these leak codes and then we'll hire you, you're going to get the same, you you, you're going to get the same, you you, you're going to get the same, you know, guy or gal every time." But, but know, guy or gal every time." But, but know, guy or gal every time." But, but I'll take a less competent programmer I'll take a less competent programmer I'll take a less competent programmer who's a collaborative code reviewer who's a collaborative code reviewer who's a collaborative code reviewer >> who will sit down and like be positive >> who will sit down and like be positive >> who will sit down and like be positive and let's get through this together. And and let's get through this together. And and let's get through this together. And if they have a good sense of code smell, if they have a good sense of code smell, if they have a good sense of code smell, that can be super valuable in a team. that can be super valuable in a team. that can be super valuable in a team. >> Yeah, especially with all the tools that >> Yeah, especially with all the tools that >> Yeah, especially with all the tools that are available. I also agree with you. Le are available. I also agree with you. Le are available. I also agree with you. Le code stresses me out so much. I much code stresses me out so much. I much code stresses me out so much. I much prefer the experiences where people prefer the experiences where people prefer the experiences where people actually build something like real and actually build something like real and actually build something like real and grounded in something that you might grounded in something that you might grounded in something that you might actually do at your job. And I think actually do at your job. And I think actually do at your job. And I think that also connects more with, that also connects more with, that also connects more with, you know, we were talking about early in you know, we were talking about early in you know, we were talking about early in career and new hires and things like career and new hires and things like career and new hires and things like that. It's like making the jump from that. It's like making the jump from that. It's like making the jump from doing a bunch of leak code studying and doing a bunch of leak code studying and doing a bunch of leak code studying and maybe some dev work in your internship maybe some dev work in your internship maybe some dev work in your internship to like this is actual software and the to like this is actual software and the to like this is actual software and the messiness of it. Y messiness of it. Y messiness of it. Y >> it's like we need something in the >> it's like we need something in the >> it's like we need something in the interview process and the way we train interview process and the way we train interview process and the way we train that gets people at that earlier.

that gets people at that earlier. that gets people at that earlier. >> Well, even though like this podcast site >> Well, even though like this podcast site >> Well, even though like this podcast site and my blog and the websites like Azure and my blog and the websites like Azure and my blog and the websites like Azure Friday are toys, Friday are toys, Friday are toys, >> they're still up 24/7. They have DNS >> they're still up 24/7. They have DNS >> they're still up 24/7. They have DNS issues, they have SSL issues, they have issues, they have SSL issues, they have issues, they have SSL issues, they have CDNs, they have um routing, they have CDNs, they have um routing, they have CDNs, they have um routing, they have multip like they are not just um a multip like they are not just um a multip like they are not just um a Raspberry Pi serving a website. You know Raspberry Pi serving a website. You know Raspberry Pi serving a website. You know what I mean? Like there's a global what I mean? Like there's a global what I mean? Like there's a global sophistication there. So I use them as sophistication there. So I use them as sophistication there. So I use them as demos because they're good demos. Like demos because they're good demos. Like demos because they're good demos. Like we aspiried the podcast last week we aspiried the podcast last week we aspiried the podcast last week >> like live and deployed it just because >> like live and deployed it just because >> like live and deployed it just because we wanted to see it. So we wanted to see it. So we wanted to see it. So >> it's shocking to me how many people will >> it's shocking to me how many people will >> it's shocking to me how many people will get all the way through even a graduate get all the way through even a graduate get all the way through even a graduate degree degree degree >> and have never put Hello World up on the >> and have never put Hello World up on the >> and have never put Hello World up on the web. So, there's something to be said web. So, there's something to be said web. So, there's something to be said for shipping an app, putting a thing in for shipping an app, putting a thing in for shipping an app, putting a thing in an app store an app store an app store >> or like my example of like I made this >> or like my example of like I made this >> or like my example of like I made this little utility, but then I had to little utility, but then I had to little utility, but then I had to relearn how to publish it to npm. relearn how to publish it to npm. relearn how to publish it to npm. >> NPM rather. By the way, I was looking a >> NPM rather. By the way, I was looking a >> NPM rather. By the way, I was looking a small segue. Uh, you were on Hansel small segue. Uh, you were on Hansel small segue. Uh, you were on Hansel Minutes episode 554.

Minutes episode 554. Minutes episode 554. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> This is episode 1,8. >> This is episode 1,8. >> This is episode 1,8. Wow. Wow. Wow. >> I saw that I was on it. The episode went >> I saw that I was on it. The episode went >> I saw that I was on it. The episode went out November 2016. Yeah, out November 2016. Yeah, out November 2016. Yeah, >> which I kind of want to travel back in >> which I kind of want to travel back in >> which I kind of want to travel back in time and time and time and >> yeah, that was that was crazy. And I >> yeah, that was that was crazy. And I >> yeah, that was that was crazy. And I found pictures of us in like found pictures of us in like found pictures of us in like Philadelphia at conferences. There was Philadelphia at conferences. There was Philadelphia at conferences. There was one that you were actually keynoting one that you were actually keynoting one that you were actually keynoting while you were still I want to say a while you were still I want to say a while you were still I want to say a sophomore or a junior in school. sophomore or a junior in school. sophomore or a junior in school. >> Depends on the year, but sounds about >> Depends on the year, but sounds about >> Depends on the year, but sounds about right. right. right. >> Yeah, that that but you you had >> Yeah, that that but you you had >> Yeah, that that but you you had experience then. I don't know. It was experience then. I don't know. It was experience then. I don't know. It was only it was a couple years you were only it was a couple years you were only it was a couple years you were doing Python and Interact. doing Python and Interact. doing Python and Interact. >> Yeah. And then you transfer you kind of >> Yeah. And then you transfer you kind of >> Yeah. And then you transfer you kind of transferred into.net. transferred into.net. transferred into.net. >> Did does that did that feel weird like >> Did does that did that feel weird like >> Did does that did that feel weird like or was it just hey computer science is or was it just hey computer science is or was it just hey computer science is computer science no big deal it's all a computer science no big deal it's all a computer science no big deal it's all a for loop. for loop. for loop. >> No talk about whiplash. So when I joined >> No talk about whiplash. So when I joined >> No talk about whiplash. So when I joined Microsoft I was still doing mostly Microsoft I was still doing mostly Microsoft I was still doing mostly Python and and JavaScript and then Python and and JavaScript and then Python and and JavaScript and then eventually I made a transition to the eventually I made a transition to the eventually I made a transition to the net team. What was attractive to me net team. What was attractive to me net team. What was attractive to me about the .NET team was I think about the .NET team was I think about the .NET team was I think internally internally internally my impression of it has a reputation for my impression of it has a reputation for my impression of it has a reputation for being a very like technically rigorous being a very like technically rigorous being a very like technically rigorous team that's full of super smart people.

team that's full of super smart people. team that's full of super smart people. So I was like okay those sound like the So I was like okay those sound like the So I was like okay those sound like the kind of people I want to work with. But kind of people I want to work with. But kind of people I want to work with. But it was a scary transition. Like I always it was a scary transition. Like I always it was a scary transition. Like I always talk about it as it was like kind of talk about it as it was like kind of talk about it as it was like kind of this critical point in my career because this critical point in my career because this critical point in my career because I jumped into something new that I had I jumped into something new that I had I jumped into something new that I had no experience with. I did not know what no experience with. I did not know what no experience with. I did not know what a DL was. a DL was. a DL was. I was equally as confused about the I was equally as confused about the I was equally as confused about the framework and core and the what is 21 framework and core and the what is 21 framework and core and the what is 21 and what is five and what is 4.7 and all and what is five and what is 4.7 and all and what is five and what is 4.7 and all of the all of the things that somebody of the all of the things that somebody of the all of the things that somebody new to net you know would would be new to net you know would would be new to net you know would would be confused by that you know now I'm confused by that you know now I'm confused by that you know now I'm comfortable and like informed about comfortable and like informed about comfortable and like informed about but no it wasn't just computer sciences but no it wasn't just computer sciences but no it wasn't just computer sciences like you have to learn a bunch of stuff like you have to learn a bunch of stuff like you have to learn a bunch of stuff you also have to learn some stuff that's you also have to learn some stuff that's you also have to learn some stuff that's kind of like intangible around kind of like intangible around kind of like intangible around like the culture of an eosystem system like the culture of an eosystem system like the culture of an eosystem system like Python and net devs think very like Python and net devs think very like Python and net devs think very differently and have different differently and have different differently and have different priorities. You know, I think Python has priorities. You know, I think Python has priorities. You know, I think Python has a very strong academic and scientific a very strong academic and scientific a very strong academic and scientific background in my opinion, background in my opinion, background in my opinion, particularly given that most of the work particularly given that most of the work particularly given that most of the work I was doing was in like the scientific I was doing was in like the scientific I was doing was in like the scientific Python stuff. And so I think that that Python stuff. And so I think that that Python stuff. And so I think that that bleeds into bleeds into bleeds into the ecosystem. I think Python is a the ecosystem. I think Python is a the ecosystem. I think Python is a little bit more focused on learning.

little bit more focused on learning. little bit more focused on learning. it's got less of that enterprisey it's got less of that enterprisey it's got less of that enterprisey reputation that .NET might have and then reputation that .NET might have and then reputation that .NET might have and then you know that comes from like a totally you know that comes from like a totally you know that comes from like a totally different origin story. And so different origin story. And so different origin story. And so kind of backgrounds of the languages end kind of backgrounds of the languages end kind of backgrounds of the languages end up influencing the culture of the up influencing the culture of the up influencing the culture of the ecosystem and then the way people ecosystem and then the way people ecosystem and then the way people prioritize how different things should prioritize how different things should prioritize how different things should be built or like what they lean towards be built or like what they lean towards be built or like what they lean towards the tool for. the tool for. the tool for. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> That's a big leap to make. >> That's a big leap to make. >> That's a big leap to make. >> You did come in though at a moment as an >> You did come in though at a moment as an >> You did come in though at a moment as an at an inflection point wheren net was at an inflection point wheren net was at an inflection point wheren net was going crossplatform and working on Mac going crossplatform and working on Mac going crossplatform and working on Mac and working on Linux. And for me like and working on Linux. And for me like and working on Linux. And for me like whenn net could be run happily in a whenn net could be run happily in a whenn net could be run happily in a container like I feel like look mama we container like I feel like look mama we container like I feel like look mama we made it like that was the moment for me made it like that was the moment for me made it like that was the moment for me like I feel like that so I think that like I feel like that so I think that like I feel like that so I think that you entering the net community in a you entering the net community in a you entering the net community in a windowsonly framework only time might windowsonly framework only time might windowsonly framework only time might have been a very different experience have been a very different experience have been a very different experience versus this like choose your own versus this like choose your own versus this like choose your own adventure place that we're at now. I bet adventure place that we're at now. I bet adventure place that we're at now. I bet you know it's so funny the meme when I you know it's so funny the meme when I you know it's so funny the meme when I first joined the team about five years first joined the team about five years first joined the team about five years ago I was using VS code because I was ago I was using VS code because I was ago I was using VS code because I was you know working with Python and you know working with Python and you know working with Python and JavaScript and so and I developed JavaScript and so and I developed JavaScript and so and I developed primarily on Mac so that was the primarily on Mac so that was the primarily on Mac so that was the ecosystem that I was comfortable with ecosystem that I was comfortable with ecosystem that I was comfortable with and when I joined the team my work and when I joined the team my work and when I joined the team my work laptop was a MacBook and so I was trying laptop was a MacBook and so I was trying laptop was a MacBook and so I was trying to do net development on VS code and Mac to do net development on VS code and Mac to do net development on VS code and Mac um five years ago and I was running into um five years ago and I was running into um five years ago and I was running into all of the pain points that we have all of the pain points that we have all of the pain points that we have since solved like I when I used to have since solved like I when I used to have since solved like I when I used to have to debug my test, there was no test to debug my test, there was no test to debug my test, there was no test explorer or like integrated debugging explorer or like integrated debugging explorer or like integrated debugging experience. So I would literally put, experience. So I would literally put, experience. So I would literally put, you know, a while loop with a wait for

you know, a while loop with a wait for you know, a while loop with a wait for the debugger to attach the debugger to attach the debugger to attach just to be able to kind of like debug just to be able to kind of like debug just to be able to kind of like debug through my tests. So it's come a long through my tests. So it's come a long through my tests. So it's come a long way since, but I'm super stubborn and way since, but I'm super stubborn and way since, but I'm super stubborn and I'm really particular about the tools I I'm really particular about the tools I I'm really particular about the tools I use. So I was like, I'm going to use VS use. So I was like, I'm going to use VS use. So I was like, I'm going to use VS Code and my my Unix terminal and I'm Code and my my Unix terminal and I'm Code and my my Unix terminal and I'm going to deal with the pain until it going to deal with the pain until it going to deal with the pain until it gets better. I had null Barry on a gets better. I had null Barry on a gets better. I had null Barry on a couple of episodes ago who is the couple of episodes ago who is the couple of episodes ago who is the developer lead developer on the game developer lead developer on the game developer lead developer on the game Celeste Celeste Celeste >> and he has been a very famous indie game >> and he has been a very famous indie game >> and he has been a very famous indie game developer does almost all of his work in developer does almost all of his work in developer does almost all of his work in C only on Linux C only on Linux C only on Linux >> like there's not a Windows machine to be >> like there's not a Windows machine to be >> like there's not a Windows machine to be found and he's doing crossplatform runs found and he's doing crossplatform runs found and he's doing crossplatform runs on a switch runs on a PlayStation runs on a switch runs on a PlayStation runs on a switch runs on a PlayStation runs on an Xbox runs on Windows but it all on an Xbox runs on Windows but it all on an Xbox runs on Windows but it all starts in Linux and I he doesn't even starts in Linux and I he doesn't even starts in Linux and I he doesn't even think about net he just codes and I think about net he just codes and I think about net he just codes and I thought that was really that's that's thought that was really that's that's thought that was really that's that's kind of a testament like when people kind of a testament like when people kind of a testament like when people like that exist I'm like oh I think we like that exist I'm like oh I think we like that exist I'm like oh I think we made a made a made a >> we've evolved y >> we've evolved y >> we've evolved y >> it's a tough it's a tough and impressive >> it's a tough it's a tough and impressive >> it's a tough it's a tough and impressive transition to make so it's super cool transition to make so it's super cool transition to make so it's super cool that we've gotten to the point where you that we've gotten to the point where you that we've gotten to the point where you know almost anyone can walk in and write know almost anyone can walk in and write know almost anyone can walk in and write C# code and run it anywhere C# code and run it anywhere C# code and run it anywhere develop and deploy it anywhere is pretty develop and deploy it anywhere is pretty develop and deploy it anywhere is pretty neat neat neat >> the last question I wanted to ask you uh >> the last question I wanted to ask you uh >> the last question I wanted to ask you uh in the within the context of competence in the within the context of competence in the within the context of competence builds confidence which I love that You builds confidence which I love that You builds confidence which I love that You need to get that on a t-shirt. Like that need to get that on a t-shirt. Like that need to get that on a t-shirt. Like that needs to be a Sophia branded t-shirt needs to be a Sophia branded t-shirt needs to be a Sophia branded t-shirt >> is you got principal engineer a year or >> is you got principal engineer a year or >> is you got principal engineer a year or so ago or a couple years ago. So you so ago or a couple years ago. So you so ago or a couple years ago. So you went from graduate of school to went from graduate of school to went from graduate of school to principal engineer in a decade. Did that

principal engineer in a decade. Did that principal engineer in a decade. Did that feel different? Did people start like feel different? Did people start like feel different? Did people start like emailing you back faster when they see emailing you back faster when they see emailing you back faster when they see your title? Do people spellch checkck your title? Do people spellch checkck your title? Do people spellch checkck email when they see your title? What did email when they see your title? What did email when they see your title? What did that feel like? that feel like? that feel like? >> I felt very accomplished. I think I'm >> I felt very accomplished. I think I'm >> I felt very accomplished. I think I'm the kind of person who I am very goal the kind of person who I am very goal the kind of person who I am very goal oriented. So I always want to like keep oriented. So I always want to like keep oriented. So I always want to like keep developing my confidence and confidence developing my confidence and confidence developing my confidence and confidence competence and confidence. competence and confidence. competence and confidence. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And so when I hit that milestone, it was >> And so when I hit that milestone, it was >> And so when I hit that milestone, it was kind of a big one for me. It was it was kind of a big one for me. It was it was kind of a big one for me. It was it was really satisfying to hit. Did people really satisfying to hit. Did people really satisfying to hit. Did people treat me different? To be honest, I treat me different? To be honest, I treat me different? To be honest, I don't know that I was looking out for don't know that I was looking out for don't know that I was looking out for any of the like quote unquote positive any of the like quote unquote positive any of the like quote unquote positive markers of a promotion like people markers of a promotion like people markers of a promotion like people responding to me faster or things like responding to me faster or things like responding to me faster or things like that. Maybe there was a little bit of that. Maybe there was a little bit of that. Maybe there was a little bit of that from people more junior to me. But that from people more junior to me. But that from people more junior to me. But what I actually noticed is the the newly what I actually noticed is the the newly what I actually noticed is the the newly acquired burden of being the person who acquired burden of being the person who acquired burden of being the person who has to know stuff and figure stuff out. has to know stuff and figure stuff out. has to know stuff and figure stuff out. >> So suddenly you became important at your >> So suddenly you became important at your >> So suddenly you became important at your job. Like you know those memes on job. Like you know those memes on job. Like you know those memes on Instagram where it's like no I've just Instagram where it's like no I've just Instagram where it's like no I've just become important at my job. I have to become important at my job. I have to become important at my job. I have to know things.

know things. know things. >> So then people look at you in the >> So then people look at you in the >> So then people look at you in the meeting and they're like so what are we meeting and they're like so what are we meeting and they're like so what are we doing? doing? doing? >> Yeah. So figure it out. I'm like oh gosh >> Yeah. So figure it out. I'm like oh gosh >> Yeah. So figure it out. I'm like oh gosh it's me now. I'm the one who's it's me now. I'm the one who's it's me now. I'm the one who's important. It's got to figure it out. Oh important. It's got to figure it out. Oh important. It's got to figure it out. Oh my god, my god, my god, >> that is the thing that I have kind of it >> that is the thing that I have kind of it >> that is the thing that I have kind of it it's exciting because this is kind of it's exciting because this is kind of it's exciting because this is kind of like the challenge I wanted. I want to like the challenge I wanted. I want to like the challenge I wanted. I want to be the person that people, you know, be the person that people, you know, be the person that people, you know, seek wisdom from. seek wisdom from. seek wisdom from. Do emails get responded to faster and Do emails get responded to faster and Do emails get responded to faster and teams messages maybe. But it's mostly teams messages maybe. But it's mostly teams messages maybe. But it's mostly that feeling of like, uh, crap, I got to that feeling of like, uh, crap, I got to that feeling of like, uh, crap, I got to figure out what to do here. figure out what to do here. figure out what to do here. >> That's so funny. When I got promoted, >> That's so funny. When I got promoted, >> That's so funny. When I got promoted, um, I would go to like Amanda Silver, um, I would go to like Amanda Silver, um, I would go to like Amanda Silver, who's like our corporate vice president, who's like our corporate vice president, who's like our corporate vice president, and I like I'd be like raging, "Someone and I like I'd be like raging, "Someone and I like I'd be like raging, "Someone should do something." And then she would should do something." And then she would should do something." And then she would say, say, say, >> "You're someone. >> "You're someone. >> "You're someone. >> You should do something." That's >> You should do something." That's >> You should do something." That's literally what your title is, the person literally what your title is, the person literally what your title is, the person that does things. So like, go and do that does things. So like, go and do that does things. So like, go and do that. So I realized I could not rant that. So I realized I could not rant that. So I realized I could not rant anymore about how someone should someone anymore about how someone should someone anymore about how someone should someone with power should do something. with power should do something. with power should do something. >> Oh no, it's me. >> Oh no, it's me. >> Oh no, it's me. >> It's me. I should be. >> It's me. I should be. >> It's me. I should be. >> Yeah. The heavy burden of ownership. And >> Yeah. The heavy burden of ownership. And >> Yeah. The heavy burden of ownership. And thus the compounding anxieties of thus the compounding anxieties of thus the compounding anxieties of competence and confidence.

competence and confidence. competence and confidence. >> Cool. >> Cool. >> Cool. >> We appreciate them. >> We appreciate them. >> We appreciate them. >> We do appreciate them. >> We do appreciate them. >> We do appreciate them. >> Well, it has been a joy. Uh we'll have >> Well, it has been a joy. Uh we'll have >> Well, it has been a joy. Uh we'll have you on in another 500 episodes, I think, you on in another 500 episodes, I think, you on in another 500 episodes, I think, at a regular. at a regular. at a regular. >> See you in 10 years again. >> See you in 10 years again. >> See you in 10 years again. >> See you in 10 years. Thanks so much for >> See you in 10 years. Thanks so much for >> See you in 10 years. Thanks so much for hanging out with me today. hanging out with me today. hanging out with me today. >> Thanks, Scott. >> Thanks, Scott. >> Thanks, Scott. >> We have been talking with principal >> We have been talking with principal >> We have been talking with principal engineer Sophia Abdullah on the net team engineer Sophia Abdullah on the net team engineer Sophia Abdullah on the net team and this has been another episode of and this has been another episode of and this has been another episode of Hansel Minutes and we'll see you again Hansel Minutes and we'll see you again Hansel Minutes and we'll see you again next week.