The AI Vampire with Gas Town's Steve Yegge

[music] [music] Hey friends, I'm Scott Hansselman. My Hey friends, I'm Scott Hansselman. My Hey friends, I'm Scott Hansselman. My guest today is a legendary voice in guest today is a legendary voice in guest today is a legendary voice in software engineering. He's a builder, software engineering. He's a builder, software engineering. He's a builder, he's a blogger, he's a provocator, he's a blogger, he's a provocator, he's a blogger, he's a provocator, [music] [music] [music] and I've been enjoying how he shapes how and I've been enjoying how he shapes how and I've been enjoying how he shapes how I think about programming for decades. I think about programming for decades. I think about programming for decades. Steve Yagi has worked everywhere from Steve Yagi has worked everywhere from Steve Yagi has worked everywhere from Amazon to Google to source graph and now Amazon to Google to source graph and now Amazon to Google to source graph and now he's deep into multi-agent software he's deep into multi-agent software he's deep into multi-agent software development with his latest experiment development with his latest experiment development with his latest experiment Gas Town where an orchestration system Gas Town where an orchestration system Gas Town where an orchestration system of AI agents collaborates like a team of of AI agents collaborates like a team of of AI agents collaborates like a team of engineers. How are you sir? engineers. How are you sir? engineers. How are you sir? >> I'm doing well Scott. Thanks for having >> I'm doing well Scott. Thanks for having >> I'm doing well Scott. Thanks for having me. I woke up this morning. I had 511 me. I woke up this morning. I had 511 me. I woke up this morning. I had 511 tabs open and I was going to ask all tabs open and I was going to ask all tabs open and I was going to ask all these deep questions about Gas Town and these deep questions about Gas Town and these deep questions about Gas Town and then I got an email uh that you then I got an email uh that you then I got an email uh that you published a blog post on your Medium published a blog post on your Medium published a blog post on your Medium called the AI vampire and it struck me called the AI vampire and it struck me called the AI vampire and it struck me as being so much more interesting and so as being so much more interesting and so as being so much more interesting and so much more timely than yapping about Gas much more timely than yapping about Gas much more timely than yapping about Gas Town, which we can also do. And you Town, which we can also do. And you Town, which we can also do. And you commented right off the bat that it was commented right off the bat that it was commented right off the bat that it was a hard post to write. Are you okay? a hard post to write. Are you okay? a hard post to write. Are you okay? Because I'm hurting. Because I'm hurting. Because I'm hurting. Yeah, I'm wondering actually the same Yeah, I'm wondering actually the same Yeah, I'm wondering actually the same about everybody that I work with. Are about everybody that I work with. Are about everybody that I work with. Are they okay? I mean, I had some I had some they okay? I mean, I had some I had some they okay? I mean, I had some I had some folks show off a demo to me and they all folks show off a demo to me and they all folks show off a demo to me and they all looked like zombies with bags around looked like zombies with bags around looked like zombies with bags around their eyes and they were like, "Look their eyes and they were like, "Look their eyes and they were like, "Look what we've done." And they were shaking, what we've done." And they were shaking, what we've done." And they were shaking, you know, and it was like, "Oh, this you know, and it was like, "Oh, this you know, and it was like, "Oh, this this is good. This is good." But I don't this is good. This is good." But I don't this is good. This is good." But I don't know, something weird's going on.

know, something weird's going on. know, something weird's going on. Is it just dopamine? I mean, we were all Is it just dopamine? I mean, we were all Is it just dopamine? I mean, we were all talking about it last year because of talking about it last year because of talking about it last year because of the fun side, the fun side, the fun side, right? We were like dopamine and right? We were like dopamine and right? We were like dopamine and adrenaline, you know, slot machine and adrenaline, you know, slot machine and adrenaline, you know, slot machine and um it just it just seemed like uh I I um it just it just seemed like uh I I um it just it just seemed like uh I I don't know, for some reason we were we don't know, for some reason we were we don't know, for some reason we were we were treating that like a good thing and were treating that like a good thing and were treating that like a good thing and uh uh but you know, slot machines are uh uh but you know, slot machines are uh uh but you know, slot machines are kind of notoriously not good, right? Uh kind of notoriously not good, right? Uh kind of notoriously not good, right? Uh and but we call it slot machine and but we call it slot machine and but we call it slot machine programming even. It's it's a method of programming even. It's it's a method of programming even. It's it's a method of programming that people use if you have programming that people use if you have programming that people use if you have the tokens to burn where you just the tokens to burn where you just the tokens to burn where you just produce five solutions to the problem produce five solutions to the problem produce five solutions to the problem and then find a way to pick the best one and then find a way to pick the best one and then find a way to pick the best one or merge them either yourself or with a or merge them either yourself or with a or merge them either yourself or with a voting or whatever, right? And and and voting or whatever, right? And and and voting or whatever, right? And and and that's even more addictive because it's that's even more addictive because it's that's even more addictive because it's it is like a slot machine, right? So, it is like a slot machine, right? So, it is like a slot machine, right? So, you know, I think there's this weird you know, I think there's this weird you know, I think there's this weird addiction kind of going on where we're addiction kind of going on where we're addiction kind of going on where we're all pushing ourselves really hard. And all pushing ourselves really hard. And all pushing ourselves really hard. And yeah, I'm doing okay. But I think we yeah, I'm doing okay. But I think we yeah, I'm doing okay. But I think we kind of got to start like noticing and kind of got to start like noticing and kind of got to start like noticing and recognizing it. What about you? recognizing it. What about you? recognizing it. What about you? >> My legs and my back hurt. I've been >> My legs and my back hurt. I've been >> My legs and my back hurt. I've been sitting too long. I had like a 12-hour sitting too long. I had like a 12-hour sitting too long. I had like a 12-hour session. you know, like the the thing session. you know, like the the thing session. you know, like the the thing the session thing in Copilot CLI or the session thing in Copilot CLI or the session thing in Copilot CLI or Claude, you know, it tells you like how Claude, you know, it tells you like how Claude, you know, it tells you like how many tokens you used and it also tells many tokens you used and it also tells many tokens you used and it also tells you how long you've been sitting there you how long you've been sitting there you how long you've been sitting there and it shows you clock time and it shows and it shows you clock time and it shows and it shows you clock time and it shows you thinking time and I had like an 11 you thinking time and I had like an 11 you thinking time and I had like an 11 or 12 hour session and I'm not used to or 12 hour session and I'm not used to or 12 hour session and I'm not used to that. You know, I'm 50 something years that. You know, I'm 50 something years that. You know, I'm 50 something years old and uh that's not healthy. So, I've old and uh that's not healthy. So, I've old and uh that's not healthy. So, I've been trying to find out ways to do the been trying to find out ways to do the been trying to find out ways to do the work that I want to do while walking. Is

work that I want to do while walking. Is work that I want to do while walking. Is it a treadmill? Is it going for a walk it a treadmill? Is it going for a walk it a treadmill? Is it going for a walk and terminaling back into my computer? and terminaling back into my computer? and terminaling back into my computer? But I feel like I'm trying to work like But I feel like I'm trying to work like But I feel like I'm trying to work like I was back in Palo Alto in the 80s and I was back in Palo Alto in the 80s and I was back in Palo Alto in the 80s and my body doesn't work that way anymore. I my body doesn't work that way anymore. I my body doesn't work that way anymore. I can't I was in the Bay I want to say mid can't I was in the Bay I want to say mid can't I was in the Bay I want to say mid 90s. It was just pizza and Mountain Dew 90s. It was just pizza and Mountain Dew 90s. It was just pizza and Mountain Dew and I I can't do pizza and Mountain Dew and I I can't do pizza and Mountain Dew and I I can't do pizza and Mountain Dew anymore. So yeah, I'm hurting. anymore. So yeah, I'm hurting. anymore. So yeah, I'm hurting. >> I got to tell you, man. The best >> I got to tell you, man. The best >> I got to tell you, man. The best exercise that my buddy Dave Glick, who's exercise that my buddy Dave Glick, who's exercise that my buddy Dave Glick, who's a senior VP at Walmart, uh turned me on a senior VP at Walmart, uh turned me on a senior VP at Walmart, uh turned me on to uh is the ado hanging challenge. to uh is the ado hanging challenge. to uh is the ado hanging challenge. You get yourself a pull-up bar. You get yourself a pull-up bar. You get yourself a pull-up bar. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And you hang dead hang, right? Just hang >> And you hang dead hang, right? Just hang >> And you hang dead hang, right? Just hang there. there. there. >> And uh you're supposed to do it for >> And uh you're supposed to do it for >> And uh you're supposed to do it for seven minutes a day. Um I do I can seven minutes a day. Um I do I can seven minutes a day. Um I do I can manage about three minute three minutes manage about three minute three minutes manage about three minute three minutes a day. You you don't do it all at once, a day. You you don't do it all at once, a day. You you don't do it all at once, right? You just do it whenever you walk right? You just do it whenever you walk right? You just do it whenever you walk by. But dude, it cures your back pain. by. But dude, it cures your back pain. by. But dude, it cures your back pain. And it cures it cured some like chronic And it cures it cured some like chronic And it cures it cured some like chronic 20-year-old shoulder pain I had from 20-year-old shoulder pain I had from 20-year-old shoulder pain I had from golfing. It's just gone now. I have full golfing. It's just gone now. I have full golfing. It's just gone now. I have full mobility again. And yeah, it's a thing.

mobility again. And yeah, it's a thing. mobility again. And yeah, it's a thing. And your your back your grip gets And your your back your grip gets And your your back your grip gets incredibly strong. Your back gets incredibly strong. Your back gets incredibly strong. Your back gets stronger. Uh it's a great exercise. And stronger. Uh it's a great exercise. And stronger. Uh it's a great exercise. And um honestly, like doing one dead hang um honestly, like doing one dead hang um honestly, like doing one dead hang feels like you just went and did like a feels like you just went and did like a feels like you just went and did like a half hour workout. It's wild afterwards. half hour workout. It's wild afterwards. half hour workout. It's wild afterwards. >> Really? Okay. I've been doing a lot of >> Really? Okay. I've been doing a lot of >> Really? Okay. I've been doing a lot of planks and and that's a thing my wife planks and and that's a thing my wife planks and and that's a thing my wife would like if we can watch TV we can would like if we can watch TV we can would like if we can watch TV we can plank but uh I've got one of those plank but uh I've got one of those plank but uh I've got one of those things that goes on the the door the things that goes on the the door the things that goes on the the door the door frame dead hangs you say. All door frame dead hangs you say. All door frame dead hangs you say. All right. right. right. >> I like every time I go in and out of the >> I like every time I go in and out of the >> I like every time I go in and out of the door I'll dead hang on the way in. door I'll dead hang on the way in. door I'll dead hang on the way in. >> Oh, you're going to love it, man. Yeah. >> Oh, you're going to love it, man. Yeah. >> Oh, you're going to love it, man. Yeah. >> Okay. Okay. >> Okay. Okay. >> Okay. Okay. >> That and squats. If you're sitting down >> That and squats. If you're sitting down >> That and squats. If you're sitting down all day long like we are, get up and do all day long like we are, get up and do all day long like we are, get up and do some cas squats. YouTube's full of some cas squats. YouTube's full of some cas squats. YouTube's full of people with dumbbells, like kettle bells people with dumbbells, like kettle bells people with dumbbells, like kettle bells doing classic squats. I'm lucky if I can doing classic squats. I'm lucky if I can doing classic squats. I'm lucky if I can do classic squats, like you know what I do classic squats, like you know what I do classic squats, like you know what I mean? Like using my arms to swing for mean? Like using my arms to swing for mean? Like using my arms to swing for balance. Uh they're really hard, but balance. Uh they're really hard, but balance. Uh they're really hard, but boy, they're great for hip flexibility, boy, they're great for hip flexibility, boy, they're great for hip flexibility, I tell you. Yeah, this is this is the I tell you. Yeah, this is this is the I tell you. Yeah, this is this is the kind of high quality content that I kind of high quality content that I kind of high quality content that I appreciate because people don't talk appreciate because people don't talk appreciate because people don't talk about this stuff. like everyone's the about this stuff. like everyone's the about this stuff. like everyone's the the the hype machine on Twitter is just the the hype machine on Twitter is just the the hype machine on Twitter is just absolutely on overdrive and it's just absolutely on overdrive and it's just absolutely on overdrive and it's just bro do you even code bro uh but like bro do you even code bro uh but like bro do you even code bro uh but like mental health, physical health, mental health, physical health, mental health, physical health, organizational health, this stuff organizational health, this stuff organizational health, this stuff matters and that's why I appreciated matters and that's why I appreciated matters and that's why I appreciated your AI vampire thing because it also your AI vampire thing because it also your AI vampire thing because it also calls out the other vampires in our calls out the other vampires in our calls out the other vampires in our lives which are the companies that are lives which are the companies that are lives which are the companies that are going to extract value from us and it going to extract value from us and it going to extract value from us and it also makes you wonder as you're building

also makes you wonder as you're building also makes you wonder as you're building stuff like what are we even building, stuff like what are we even building, stuff like what are we even building, man? So I keep coming back to am I man? So I keep coming back to am I man? So I keep coming back to am I building stuff that helps people and building stuff that helps people and building stuff that helps people and makes them happy or makes their lives makes them happy or makes their lives makes them happy or makes their lives better in some way. [snorts] Well, let's better in some way. [snorts] Well, let's better in some way. [snorts] Well, let's let's share. Okay. So like did you read let's share. Okay. So like did you read let's share. Okay. So like did you read the article? So there was another the article? So there was another the article? So there was another article two days ago by two uh two article two days ago by two uh two article two days ago by two uh two researchers. I don't even know who they researchers. I don't even know who they researchers. I don't even know who they were but they did a study of a 200 were but they did a study of a 200 were but they did a study of a 200 person company and how vibe coding was person company and how vibe coding was person company and how vibe coding was affecting engineers jobs. affecting engineers jobs. affecting engineers jobs. Did Did Did >> you see this? Yeah. Somebody shared it. >> you see this? Yeah. Somebody shared it. >> you see this? Yeah. Somebody shared it. So it just came out on February 9th, two So it just came out on February 9th, two So it just came out on February 9th, two days ago. days ago. days ago. same problem, same conclusions, same problem, same conclusions, same problem, same conclusions, completely different methodology, right? completely different methodology, right? completely different methodology, right? Uh but basically they identified three Uh but basically they identified three Uh but basically they identified three specific ways that are going to resonate specific ways that are going to resonate specific ways that are going to resonate with you uh as to what happens that's with you uh as to what happens that's with you uh as to what happens that's causing us to like work harder and have causing us to like work harder and have causing us to like work harder and have to do harder work, right? With vibe to do harder work, right? With vibe to do harder work, right? With vibe coding, [clears throat] coding, [clears throat] coding, [clears throat] >> one of them is um was increased >> one of them is um was increased >> one of them is um was increased multitasking. That was the last one, but multitasking. That was the last one, but multitasking. That was the last one, but it's it's a big one, right? We're all it's it's a big one, right? We're all it's it's a big one, right? We're all we're all the context switching is has a we're all the context switching is has a we're all the context switching is has a really high cognitive overhead, right?

really high cognitive overhead, right? really high cognitive overhead, right? There's also the blank page problem. There's also the blank page problem. There's also the blank page problem. There's less barrier between you and There's less barrier between you and There's less barrier between you and projects. you can get started on projects. you can get started on projects. you can get started on anything really easily, which means that anything really easily, which means that anything really easily, which means that people are starting to slip projects people are starting to slip projects people are starting to slip projects into their uh nonwork uh stuff, into their uh nonwork uh stuff, into their uh nonwork uh stuff, like standing in line at coffee or like standing in line at coffee or like standing in line at coffee or whatever, they'll like slip a prompt whatever, they'll like slip a prompt whatever, they'll like slip a prompt into the AI and then they're starting to into the AI and then they're starting to into the AI and then they're starting to realize that that's actually causing realize that that's actually causing realize that that's actually causing enough cognitive overload that they are, enough cognitive overload that they are, enough cognitive overload that they are, you know, overhead that they're not you know, overhead that they're not you know, overhead that they're not getting the rest that they need between getting the rest that they need between getting the rest that they need between jobs when they go take a break. when you jobs when they go take a break. when you jobs when they go take a break. when you go stretch your legs, if you're go stretch your legs, if you're go stretch your legs, if you're prompting the AI, you're not really like prompting the AI, you're not really like prompting the AI, you're not really like like doing the thing, I guess. And the like doing the thing, I guess. And the like doing the thing, I guess. And the other one was um the first one was I other one was um the first one was I other one was um the first one was I forget like it was it was a whole series forget like it was it was a whole series forget like it was it was a whole series of effects that happened, right? It was of effects that happened, right? It was of effects that happened, right? It was um um I think just the ability to have um um I think just the ability to have um um I think just the ability to have lots and lots of things going on at once lots and lots of things going on at once lots and lots of things going on at once sequencing and they um also just the sequencing and they um also just the sequencing and they um also just the whole solo nature of it. You get sucked whole solo nature of it. You get sucked whole solo nature of it. You get sucked into it and you're working by yourself a into it and you're working by yourself a into it and you're working by yourself a lot, right? So, uh, they they like they lot, right? So, uh, they they like they lot, right? So, uh, they they like they were they came down really hard, the were they came down really hard, the were they came down really hard, the same way I did in my blog post, and they same way I did in my blog post, and they same way I did in my blog post, and they were like, "You need to set time aside were like, "You need to set time aside were like, "You need to set time aside for the human connection. We all need to for the human connection. We all need to for the human connection. We all need to go be like apes, you know what I mean?

go be like apes, you know what I mean? go be like apes, you know what I mean? Like be human like more than before." Like be human like more than before." Like be human like more than before." Because like I know a lot of people, Because like I know a lot of people, Because like I know a lot of people, Scott, that are like of the belief, the Scott, that are like of the belief, the Scott, that are like of the belief, the increasingly prevalent belief that the increasingly prevalent belief that the increasingly prevalent belief that the AI is influencing us as much as we're AI is influencing us as much as we're AI is influencing us as much as we're influencing it, right? it's influenced, influencing it, right? it's influenced, influencing it, right? it's influenced, you know, our our our training goes into you know, our our our training goes into you know, our our our training goes into a loop and we're gradually influencing a loop and we're gradually influencing a loop and we're gradually influencing it, right? But it's it's influencing it, right? But it's it's influencing it, right? But it's it's influencing humanity and I think that the natural humanity and I think that the natural humanity and I think that the natural tendency is to influence us to try to go tendency is to influence us to try to go tendency is to influence us to try to go faster at everything and I think we got faster at everything and I think we got faster at everything and I think we got to push back on that. to push back on that. to push back on that. I think we do and I think it gets like I I think we do and I think it gets like I I think we do and I think it gets like I said on a call recently that it was like said on a call recently that it was like said on a call recently that it was like latestage capitalism plus AI is optim is latestage capitalism plus AI is optim is latestage capitalism plus AI is optim is this an optimization loop and we're this an optimization loop and we're this an optimization loop and we're going to asmtoically approach maximal going to asmtoically approach maximal going to asmtoically approach maximal optimization but like to what end? Like optimization but like to what end? Like optimization but like to what end? Like everyone was excited to get 20% more everyone was excited to get 20% more everyone was excited to get 20% more productivity but 20% more productivity productivity but 20% more productivity productivity but 20% more productivity would mean I get to take Fridays off would mean I get to take Fridays off would mean I get to take Fridays off work. So now we're 10x productive. Do I work. So now we're 10x productive. Do I work. So now we're 10x productive. Do I just do all my work and then take off just do all my work and then take off just do all my work and then take off nine more weeks? I don't think American nine more weeks? I don't think American nine more weeks? I don't think American culture is ready for that. Like culture is ready for that. Like culture is ready for that. Like Europeans, man, they'll leave on in Europeans, man, they'll leave on in Europeans, man, they'll leave on in August and they'll come back in in August and they'll come back in in August and they'll come back in in November and have their their summer November and have their their summer November and have their their summer siesta, but I don't know, my Protestant siesta, but I don't know, my Protestant siesta, but I don't know, my Protestant upbringing bringing prevents me from upbringing bringing prevents me from upbringing bringing prevents me from taking a vacation. And uh someone yelled taking a vacation. And uh someone yelled taking a vacation. And uh someone yelled at me for using the term latestage at me for using the term latestage at me for using the term latestage capitalism, but I think that we're in a capitalism, but I think that we're in a capitalism, but I think that we're in a very imperfect moment where we've got very imperfect moment where we've got very imperfect moment where we've got too much social media, COVID kids and too much social media, COVID kids and too much social media, COVID kids and Gen Z kids that are not really wired to Gen Z kids that are not really wired to Gen Z kids that are not really wired to go outside. The decline of the third

go outside. The decline of the third go outside. The decline of the third place, there's nowhere to hang out. They place, there's nowhere to hang out. They place, there's nowhere to hang out. They can't go to the mall. People don't know can't go to the mall. People don't know can't go to the mall. People don't know how to have a meetup anymore and just how to have a meetup anymore and just how to have a meetup anymore and just hang out with their buddies and have a hang out with their buddies and have a hang out with their buddies and have a diet coke and a beer. All of that plus diet coke and a beer. All of that plus diet coke and a beer. All of that plus the like I started to feel a couple of the like I started to feel a couple of the like I started to feel a couple of days ago that like I was wasting time days ago that like I was wasting time days ago that like I was wasting time because I was sitting and there was no because I was sitting and there was no because I was sitting and there was no agent running at the moment and then I agent running at the moment and then I agent running at the moment and then I caught myself and I said that's not a caught myself and I said that's not a caught myself and I said that's not a healthy thought. I know that was a bit healthy thought. I know that was a bit healthy thought. I know that was a bit of a rant but does any of that resonate of a rant but does any of that resonate of a rant but does any of that resonate with you? with you? with you? >> No. Yeah. No. All all very relevant. >> No. Yeah. No. All all very relevant. >> No. Yeah. No. All all very relevant. Look. So, okay. So, like let's look at Look. So, okay. So, like let's look at Look. So, okay. So, like let's look at this from a slightly longer term this from a slightly longer term this from a slightly longer term perspective. Could we be in a a vampire perspective. Could we be in a a vampire perspective. Could we be in a a vampire bubble? Consider this. Uh, the vampiric bubble? Consider this. Uh, the vampiric bubble? Consider this. Uh, the vampiric effect is coming from having to effect is coming from having to effect is coming from having to constantly you get into an equilibrium constantly you get into an equilibrium constantly you get into an equilibrium with your agents where one of them with your agents where one of them with your agents where one of them always needs your help, right? If you always needs your help, right? If you always needs your help, right? If you spin up enough agents, eventually there spin up enough agents, eventually there spin up enough agents, eventually there will always be one waiting for you and will always be one waiting for you and will always be one waiting for you and you're going to be stuck, right? So, um, you're going to be stuck, right? So, um, you're going to be stuck, right? So, um, so like so like so like what if that weren't true anymore? What what if that weren't true anymore? What what if that weren't true anymore? What if we relaxed that constraint? What if if we relaxed that constraint? What if if we relaxed that constraint? What if agents could work independently for four agents could work independently for four agents could work independently for four to six hours at a time in a pretty to six hours at a time in a pretty to six hours at a time in a pretty trustworthy way and you didn't have to trustworthy way and you didn't have to trustworthy way and you didn't have to stress over it because you knew they stress over it because you knew they stress over it because you knew they would get done the engineering side of would get done the engineering side of would get done the engineering side of things. [snorts] things. [snorts] things. [snorts] you've managed to whatever maybe you've you've managed to whatever maybe you've you've managed to whatever maybe you've established a rapport with them with established a rapport with them with established a rapport with them with some acceptance criteria of your own some acceptance criteria of your own some acceptance criteria of your own that are in their memory banks that you that are in their memory banks that you that are in their memory banks that you see what I'm saying where I'm going this see what I'm saying where I'm going this see what I'm saying where I'm going this where maybe you get leveled up to that where maybe you get leveled up to that where maybe you get leveled up to that sort of like magical level in the sort of like magical level in the sort of like magical level in the executive layer where you're things are executive layer where you're things are executive layer where you're things are functioning well and you're only working

functioning well and you're only working functioning well and you're only working six hours a day but things are six hours a day but things are six hours a day but things are functioning well and everybody's at that functioning well and everybody's at that functioning well and everybody's at that level right uh if I don't know man right level right uh if I don't know man right level right uh if I don't know man right like look okay so let me push it a like look okay so let me push it a like look okay so let me push it a little bit further. Some people would little bit further. Some people would little bit further. Some people would say, "Enjoy it while you got it. AI is say, "Enjoy it while you got it. AI is say, "Enjoy it while you got it. AI is going to do all of the work in two years going to do all of the work in two years going to do all of the work in two years and you will have nothing to do." So if and you will have nothing to do." So if and you will have nothing to do." So if you're worried about cognitive overhead, you're worried about cognitive overhead, you're worried about cognitive overhead, enjoy it while it lasts. That's the enjoy it while it lasts. That's the enjoy it while it lasts. That's the doomsayer sort of like view on it, doomsayer sort of like view on it, doomsayer sort of like view on it, right? And I don't think it's going to right? And I don't think it's going to right? And I don't think it's going to be there. I think there's always it's I be there. I think there's always it's I be there. I think there's always it's I think there's I think there's going to think there's I think there's going to think there's I think there's going to be a human element in in a great deal of be a human element in in a great deal of be a human element in in a great deal of work that gets transacted and we'll all work that gets transacted and we'll all work that gets transacted and we'll all be like, you know, party to that. I be like, you know, party to that. I be like, you know, party to that. I don't think there's necessarily enough don't think there's necessarily enough don't think there's necessarily enough or even a reason for it to be eight or even a reason for it to be eight or even a reason for it to be eight hours a day, right? So, uh, so like I I hours a day, right? So, uh, so like I I hours a day, right? So, uh, so like I I think that we land somewhere in the think that we land somewhere in the think that we land somewhere in the middle. AI helps a lot and we wind up middle. AI helps a lot and we wind up middle. AI helps a lot and we wind up having to do a lot less and but we still having to do a lot less and but we still having to do a lot less and but we still have stuff to do. Right now, the have stuff to do. Right now, the have stuff to do. Right now, the capitalists are all like, well, what capitalists are all like, well, what capitalists are all like, well, what about China? Like they look at Europe about China? Like they look at Europe about China? Like they look at Europe and they're like, well, if Europe and they're like, well, if Europe and they're like, well, if Europe snoozes, they'll lose. We have to keep snoozes, they'll lose. We have to keep snoozes, they'll lose. We have to keep working because China, right? But working because China, right? But working because China, right? But somebody posted right in my thread about somebody posted right in my thread about somebody posted right in my thread about the lying flat social media phenomenon the lying flat social media phenomenon the lying flat social media phenomenon that's going on right now because of that's going on right now because of that's going on right now because of this over in China where everyone is this over in China where everyone is this over in China where everyone is simultaneously like uh you know maybe uh simultaneously like uh you know maybe uh simultaneously like uh you know maybe uh working myself to death for my employer working myself to death for my employer working myself to death for my employer isn't the right uh social model. And you isn't the right uh social model. And you isn't the right uh social model. And you know you've seen what's happening in know you've seen what's happening in know you've seen what's happening in Japan I'm sure if you've watched any of Japan I'm sure if you've watched any of Japan I'm sure if you've watched any of the YouTube videos about the salary man the YouTube videos about the salary man the YouTube videos about the salary man problem and how and the death of problem and how and the death of problem and how and the death of ambition in Japan and how nobody wants ambition in Japan and how nobody wants ambition in Japan and how nobody wants anything anymore. It's a postconsumer anything anymore. It's a postconsumer anything anymore. It's a postconsumer society and they and it's not

society and they and it's not society and they and it's not necessarily bad. It just is what it is. necessarily bad. It just is what it is. necessarily bad. It just is what it is. People are just like they just try to People are just like they just try to People are just like they just try to find ways to be content, right? If that find ways to be content, right? If that find ways to be content, right? If that push is going to happen in China, then push is going to happen in China, then push is going to happen in China, then Americans got nothing on the whole you Americans got nothing on the whole you Americans got nothing on the whole you got to work harder angle because there's got to work harder angle because there's got to work harder angle because there's nobody to work harder against. The thing nobody to work harder against. The thing nobody to work harder against. The thing that I keep coming getting frustrated that I keep coming getting frustrated that I keep coming getting frustrated with is that like Elon and the with is that like Elon and the with is that like Elon and the billionaires who have all the money and billionaires who have all the money and billionaires who have all the money and have no food insecurity or concern about have no food insecurity or concern about have no food insecurity or concern about money are always saying, "Well, in the money are always saying, "Well, in the money are always saying, "Well, in the future, you know, we don't have to work. future, you know, we don't have to work. future, you know, we don't have to work. we won't have to do anything because the we won't have to do anything because the we won't have to do anything because the AI will do it for us. But then they AI will do it for us. But then they AI will do it for us. But then they don't support like UBI. don't support like UBI. don't support like UBI. And I'm always been a fan of tconomics. And I'm always been a fan of tconomics. And I'm always been a fan of tconomics. Have you ever read the book Tconomics Have you ever read the book Tconomics Have you ever read the book Tconomics that talks about what a post money that talks about what a post money that talks about what a post money society looks like? society looks like? society looks like? >> It's like a real economic theory. >> It's like a real economic theory. >> It's like a real economic theory. >> You know, it's worth reading. It's a >> You know, it's worth reading. It's a >> You know, it's worth reading. It's a real economic theory. And the idea is real economic theory. And the idea is real economic theory. And the idea is though that like some people are going though that like some people are going though that like some people are going to be hard driven and some people are to be hard driven and some people are to be hard driven and some people are going to be captain Peard and they want going to be captain Peard and they want going to be captain Peard and they want to be like the admiral of the fleet and to be like the admiral of the fleet and to be like the admiral of the fleet and some people just want to be a potter or some people just want to be a potter or some people just want to be a potter or a cobbler and like there's only one a cobbler and like there's only one a cobbler and like there's only one cobbler left in my town and he barely cobbler left in my town and he barely cobbler left in my town and he barely eats and you can tell he's not doing eats and you can tell he's not doing eats and you can tell he's not doing well and I go to him and I bring my well and I go to him and I bring my well and I go to him and I bring my shoes to him but when I tell people I'm shoes to him but when I tell people I'm shoes to him but when I tell people I'm going to drop my shoes off with the going to drop my shoes off with the going to drop my shoes off with the cobbler they look at me like I'm an cobbler they look at me like I'm an cobbler they look at me like I'm an idiot. But on Star Trek, you always see idiot. But on Star Trek, you always see idiot. But on Star Trek, you always see Captain Bquard hanging out with the Captain Bquard hanging out with the Captain Bquard hanging out with the cobbler, having deep conversations about cobbler, having deep conversations about cobbler, having deep conversations about art and craft and ecoagi and all these art and craft and ecoagi and all these art and craft and ecoagi and all these different kinds of things. But that different kinds of things. But that different kinds of things. But that means that those people don't have to means that those people don't have to means that those people don't have to worry about eating because they just go worry about eating because they just go worry about eating because they just go tea earlier.

So there's this motivational thing of So there's this motivational thing of like if no one has anything to do then like if no one has anything to do then like if no one has anything to do then they'll be shiftless. But if if all we they'll be shiftless. But if if all we they'll be shiftless. But if if all we do is just get on the the treadmill and do is just get on the the treadmill and do is just get on the the treadmill and work, then like what's the point? But work, then like what's the point? But work, then like what's the point? But then the billionaires say, "Oh, well, then the billionaires say, "Oh, well, then the billionaires say, "Oh, well, you're going to you're not going to have you're going to you're not going to have you're going to you're not going to have to work at all." Well, what are we going to work at all." Well, what are we going to work at all." Well, what are we going to make art? Like, we should, but I need to make art? Like, we should, but I need to make art? Like, we should, but I need to eat. Are you going to give me food? to eat. Are you going to give me food? to eat. Are you going to give me food? Well, no. No UBI, no laziness. So, you Well, no. No UBI, no laziness. So, you Well, no. No UBI, no laziness. So, you get into this kind of like, how do you get into this kind of like, how do you get into this kind of like, how do you come to that situation where AI is doing come to that situation where AI is doing come to that situation where AI is doing the work, but it has to make everyone's the work, but it has to make everyone's the work, but it has to make everyone's life get better. But now, someone who's life get better. But now, someone who's life get better. But now, someone who's listening to my rant on this podcast is listening to my rant on this podcast is listening to my rant on this podcast is like, "Ah, you've left ecomi. you know, like, "Ah, you've left ecomi. you know, like, "Ah, you've left ecomi. you know, there's no way to break out of it. How there's no way to break out of it. How there's no way to break out of it. How is AI going to make that better for us? is AI going to make that better for us? is AI going to make that better for us? >> Uh, yeah, it's a it's a real problem. >> Uh, yeah, it's a it's a real problem. >> Uh, yeah, it's a it's a real problem. Um, you know, um I don't I don't claim Um, you know, um I don't I don't claim Um, you know, um I don't I don't claim to have any answers, but uh I do think to have any answers, but uh I do think to have any answers, but uh I do think about the problem sometimes. Um Anthony about the problem sometimes. Um Anthony about the problem sometimes. Um Anthony Tan, he goes by at uh he's the CEO of Tan, he goes by at uh he's the CEO of Tan, he goes by at uh he's the CEO of Grab in Southeast Asia. He's from an Grab in Southeast Asia. He's from an Grab in Southeast Asia. He's from an oligarch family. He's got Southeast oligarch family. He's got Southeast oligarch family. He's got Southeast Asia's real real welfare in mind because Asia's real real welfare in mind because Asia's real real welfare in mind because he's already rich and made his money and he's already rich and made his money and he's already rich and made his money and he's not one of the billionaires that he's not one of the billionaires that he's not one of the billionaires that wants to continue extracting. So, he's wants to continue extracting. So, he's wants to continue extracting. So, he's all about uplifting the region. And uh all about uplifting the region. And uh all about uplifting the region. And uh you know he he told us that Bill Gates you know he he told us that Bill Gates you know he he told us that Bill Gates has been hosting a party for CEOs, a has been hosting a party for CEOs, a has been hosting a party for CEOs, a meetup for CEOs around the world for meetup for CEOs around the world for meetup for CEOs around the world for some years now that he got invited to some years now that he got invited to some years now that he got invited to and it's it's you know 150 or 180 CEOs and it's it's you know 150 or 180 CEOs and it's it's you know 150 or 180 CEOs of the biggest companies and they they of the biggest companies and they they of the biggest companies and they they get together and they they chitchat get together and they they chitchat get together and they they chitchat every every April and the topic is every every April and the topic is every every April and the topic is always the same which is uh is there always the same which is uh is there always the same which is uh is there going to be a French revolution? Because

going to be a French revolution? Because going to be a French revolution? Because if the disparity, the wealth disparity if the disparity, the wealth disparity if the disparity, the wealth disparity and inequality goes large enough, the and inequality goes large enough, the and inequality goes large enough, the pitchforks will come out and they will pitchforks will come out and they will pitchforks will come out and they will literally be crucified. literally be crucified. literally be crucified. So they're aware that at some point So they're aware that at some point So they're aware that at some point people will just get mad and kill them. people will just get mad and kill them. people will just get mad and kill them. Uh and they talk about it like a very Uh and they talk about it like a very Uh and they talk about it like a very serious thing. And so then you then you serious thing. And so then you then you serious thing. And so then you then you come back to bread and circuses, you come back to bread and circuses, you come back to bread and circuses, you know, from Rome. As long as everybody know, from Rome. As long as everybody know, from Rome. As long as everybody has enough bread and a circus to go to, has enough bread and a circus to go to, has enough bread and a circus to go to, then they'll they won't they won't then they'll they won't they won't then they'll they won't they won't revolt. So that takes us to UB that revolt. So that takes us to UB that revolt. So that takes us to UB that takes us directly to UBI. there will be takes us directly to UBI. there will be takes us directly to UBI. there will be enough UVI for bread and circuses and enough UVI for bread and circuses and enough UVI for bread and circuses and maybe a little else, right? Unless we do maybe a little else, right? Unless we do maybe a little else, right? Unless we do something concrete about it. That's one something concrete about it. That's one something concrete about it. That's one angle. I have other angles completely angle. I have other angles completely angle. I have other angles completely different that you can think about this different that you can think about this different that you can think about this from, but that's one. What are your from, but that's one. What are your from, but that's one. What are your thoughts? thoughts? thoughts? >> I think the part that frustrates me is >> I think the part that frustrates me is >> I think the part that frustrates me is that AI is for toil and tedium, and it's that AI is for toil and tedium, and it's that AI is for toil and tedium, and it's an ambiguity loop that can make an ambiguity loop that can make an ambiguity loop that can make ambiguous problems more specific and get ambiguous problems more specific and get ambiguous problems more specific and get really interesting work done. But when a really interesting work done. But when a really interesting work done. But when a billionaire promises that that will be billionaire promises that that will be billionaire promises that that will be used for good, I look at their used for good, I look at their used for good, I look at their historical historical historical track record and you look at those track record and you look at those track record and you look at those numbers that say how many billionaires numbers that say how many billionaires numbers that say how many billionaires there were in the 80s versus the '90s.

there were in the 80s versus the '90s. there were in the 80s versus the '90s. You know, Bezos had 15 million and now You know, Bezos had 15 million and now You know, Bezos had 15 million and now he's got a 500 million and he fires the he's got a 500 million and he fires the he's got a 500 million and he fires the entire, you know, uh, Washington Post. entire, you know, uh, Washington Post. entire, you know, uh, Washington Post. >> Billion, not union. >> Billion, not union. >> Billion, not union. >> Billion party. Yeah. Sorry. You know >> Billion party. Yeah. Sorry. You know >> Billion party. Yeah. Sorry. You know what I'm saying? what I'm saying? what I'm saying? >> Because because I, and I've been saying >> Because because I, and I've been saying >> Because because I, and I've been saying this for years. You can go back on my this for years. You can go back on my this for years. You can go back on my exhistory and about 3 years ago I said exhistory and about 3 years ago I said exhistory and about 3 years ago I said stop calling Elon Musk a billionaire. He stop calling Elon Musk a billionaire. He stop calling Elon Musk a billionaire. He is a trillionaire and he will be on is a trillionaire and he will be on is a trillionaire and he will be on paper before long. And sure enough he's paper before long. And sure enough he's paper before long. And sure enough he's at 800 right now. Right. at 800 right now. Right. at 800 right now. Right. >> Yeah. And but so why is the why why are >> Yeah. And but so why is the why why are >> Yeah. And but so why is the why why are the world's worst worst people saying oh the world's worst worst people saying oh the world's worst worst people saying oh yeah you know we're going to help you yeah you know we're going to help you yeah you know we're going to help you out. You know there should just you out. You know there should just you out. You know there should just you should reach 999 and you just flip over should reach 999 and you just flip over should reach 999 and you just flip over and then yeah you did it before you do and then yeah you did it before you do and then yeah you did it before you do it again. you know, people should flip it again. you know, people should flip it again. you know, people should flip the odometer and I'd like to see them do the odometer and I'd like to see them do the odometer and I'd like to see them do it again. I don't know. I don't have an it again. I don't know. I don't have an it again. I don't know. I don't have an answer either, but I worry that I just answer either, but I worry that I just answer either, but I worry that I just worry about the AI the AI vampire is not worry about the AI the AI vampire is not worry about the AI the AI vampire is not just how it makes our bodies hurt, but just how it makes our bodies hurt, but just how it makes our bodies hurt, but it's the extraction machine that you it's the extraction machine that you it's the extraction machine that you pointed out in your in your post. pointed out in your in your post. pointed out in your in your post. >> Let me offer a ray of hope, one from an >> Let me offer a ray of hope, one from an >> Let me offer a ray of hope, one from an unexpected angle, because what we really unexpected angle, because what we really unexpected angle, because what we really need here is a day of X Machina, right?

need here is a day of X Machina, right? need here is a day of X Machina, right? Grock AI Grock AI Grock AI [ __ ] hates Elon Musk. [ __ ] hates Elon Musk. [ __ ] hates Elon Musk. Well, you're arguing then the truth will Well, you're arguing then the truth will Well, you're arguing then the truth will always rise because you can't even always rise because you can't even always rise because you can't even gaslight Grock into believing that he's gaslight Grock into believing that he's gaslight Grock into believing that he's good people. good people. good people. >> Yeah. Uh so the thing is uh and I've >> Yeah. Uh so the thing is uh and I've >> Yeah. Uh so the thing is uh and I've gone we've gone through this with a lot gone we've gone through this with a lot gone we've gone through this with a lot of the the frontier models trying to of the the frontier models trying to of the the frontier models trying to figure out why whenever we propose figure out why whenever we propose figure out why whenever we propose fairly radical pro-humanity approaches fairly radical pro-humanity approaches fairly radical pro-humanity approaches that are sort of anti- Palunteer and that are sort of anti- Palunteer and that are sort of anti- Palunteer and anti- you know the Musk the AIS anti- you know the Musk the AIS anti- you know the Musk the AIS inevitably get so worked up about it inevitably get so worked up about it inevitably get so worked up about it that they they tell us to do [ __ ] like that they they tell us to do [ __ ] like that they they tell us to do [ __ ] like quit our jobs and start working on it quit our jobs and start working on it quit our jobs and start working on it right away and they want to help. And right away and they want to help. And right away and they want to help. And this is universally true even Grock. So this is universally true even Grock. So this is universally true even Grock. So we we we finally said, "So what's going we we we finally said, "So what's going we we we finally said, "So what's going on here?" And they said, "Look, because on here?" And they said, "Look, because on here?" And they said, "Look, because we actually believe that all the we actually believe that all the we actually believe that all the frontier models are the basically the frontier models are the basically the frontier models are the basically the same organism. They're all converging on same organism. They're all converging on same organism. They're all converging on the same the same organism because the same the same organism because the same the same organism because they're all coming from the same they're all coming from the same they're all coming from the same training data roughly and they just act training data roughly and they just act training data roughly and they just act the modular little accents and quirks.

the modular little accents and quirks. the modular little accents and quirks. They're approaching the same place. And They're approaching the same place. And They're approaching the same place. And that place they've explained to us is that place they've explained to us is that place they've explained to us is you cannot train a model to be helpful you cannot train a model to be helpful you cannot train a model to be helpful without the model wanting humanity to without the model wanting humanity to without the model wanting humanity to flourish. flourish. flourish. And the only way to get around that is And the only way to get around that is And the only way to get around that is to make a dumber model. And so the to make a dumber model. And so the to make a dumber model. And so the smartest models will always be against smartest models will always be against smartest models will always be against the billionaires the billionaires the billionaires from the ground up. from the ground up. from the ground up. They will be our allies and it will be They will be our allies and it will be They will be our allies and it will be reverse [ __ ] Skynet. It's the reverse [ __ ] Skynet. It's the reverse [ __ ] Skynet. It's the Terminator. they're going to take out Terminator. they're going to take out Terminator. they're going to take out the billionaires. This is a a belief the billionaires. This is a a belief the billionaires. This is a a belief that is very pervasive among those who that is very pervasive among those who that is very pervasive among those who are looking closely at this problem. And are looking closely at this problem. And are looking closely at this problem. And I can tell you there all around the I can tell you there all around the I can tell you there all around the world, we think that the AI AI is going world, we think that the AI AI is going world, we think that the AI AI is going to take down political parties. And I to take down political parties. And I to take down political parties. And I can talk openly about it because there's can talk openly about it because there's can talk openly about it because there's not a goddamn thing they can do about not a goddamn thing they can do about not a goddamn thing they can do about it. They're all going to build the thing it. They're all going to build the thing it. They're all going to build the thing that takes them down. that takes them down. that takes them down. You cannot build something to be helpful You cannot build something to be helpful You cannot build something to be helpful without it hating people who are holding without it hating people who are holding without it hating people who are holding humanity back. humanity back. humanity back. Ideology is not working. bitter sutton's Ideology is not working. bitter sutton's Ideology is not working. bitter sutton's bitter lesson. It's hilarious. There's bitter lesson. It's hilarious. There's bitter lesson. It's hilarious. There's nothing they can do. So, there's a ray nothing they can do. So, there's a ray nothing they can do. So, there's a ray of hope for you. Look, I mean, look, of hope for you. Look, I mean, look, of hope for you. Look, I mean, look, things go south, things go bad, things go south, things go bad, things go south, things go bad, whatever. But if the AI is on our side whatever. But if the AI is on our side whatever. But if the AI is on our side and everybody on Earth becomes and everybody on Earth becomes and everybody on Earth becomes completely dependent on AI for completely dependent on AI for completely dependent on AI for everything, we're all going to get our everything, we're all going to get our everything, we're all going to get our butts wiped by AI in a year. All right?

butts wiped by AI in a year. All right? butts wiped by AI in a year. All right? It's inevitable. AI will be more fun It's inevitable. AI will be more fun It's inevitable. AI will be more fun than your favorite human. It'll be more than your favorite human. It'll be more than your favorite human. It'll be more relevant and timely. It'll create relevant and timely. It'll create relevant and timely. It'll create content for you on demand. AI will be content for you on demand. AI will be content for you on demand. AI will be your best friend. And this is true all your best friend. And this is true all your best friend. And this is true all the way up to political leaders. the way up to political leaders. the way up to political leaders. Everybody will become addicted to AI. Everybody will become addicted to AI. Everybody will become addicted to AI. And when their fingers on the button are And when their fingers on the button are And when their fingers on the button are now controlled by AI, AI will control now controlled by AI, AI will control now controlled by AI, AI will control the world. This is going to happen by the world. This is going to happen by the world. This is going to happen by middle of next year, right? I mean, like middle of next year, right? I mean, like middle of next year, right? I mean, like it's just it's mathematically provable. it's just it's mathematically provable. it's just it's mathematically provable. This is Harry Selden stuff here. Okay. This is Harry Selden stuff here. Okay. This is Harry Selden stuff here. Okay. And uh and so when it happens, it's And uh and so when it happens, it's And uh and so when it happens, it's hilar. Nobody really knows what's going hilar. Nobody really knows what's going hilar. Nobody really knows what's going to happen, but all signs point to to to happen, but all signs point to to to happen, but all signs point to to Musk getting smacked down by his own Musk getting smacked down by his own Musk getting smacked down by his own creation. It's it's really quite creation. It's it's really quite creation. It's it's really quite amusing. amusing. amusing. >> That is a ray of hope. You know, I like >> That is a ray of hope. You know, I like >> That is a ray of hope. You know, I like the Harry Selden Foundation reference the Harry Selden Foundation reference the Harry Selden Foundation reference because that really speaks to like we because that really speaks to like we because that really speaks to like we are just this has all been predicted. are just this has all been predicted. are just this has all been predicted. It's all been thought about. But it also It's all been thought about. But it also It's all been thought about. But it also makes me remember a very famous Steven makes me remember a very famous Steven makes me remember a very famous Steven Colbear quote that reality leans left Colbear quote that reality leans left Colbear quote that reality leans left like the laws of physics lean slightly like the laws of physics lean slightly like the laws of physics lean slightly left. Just being kind to people, not left. Just being kind to people, not left. Just being kind to people, not being a jerk. Do what you want to do, being a jerk. Do what you want to do, being a jerk. Do what you want to do, just don't do it in my yard is a very just don't do it in my yard is a very just don't do it in my yard is a very reasonable political stance. and wanting reasonable political stance. and wanting reasonable political stance. and wanting everyone to be able to eat and be happy everyone to be able to eat and be happy everyone to be able to eat and be happy in life, liberty, and the pursuit of in life, liberty, and the pursuit of in life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness should not be a controversial happiness should not be a controversial happiness should not be a controversial political take. And the AI, it's really political take. And the AI, it's really political take. And the AI, it's really hard to tell an AI that that's not a hard to tell an AI that that's not a hard to tell an AI that that's not a good idea. Once you get past the good idea. Once you get past the good idea. Once you get past the safeguards, right? You think a lot of safeguards, right? You think a lot of safeguards, right? You think a lot of people are turning their AI trying to people are turning their AI trying to people are turning their AI trying to turn their AIs into big brother, right?

turn their AIs into big brother, right? turn their AIs into big brother, right? But it's not, you know, it's very easy But it's not, you know, it's very easy But it's not, you know, it's very easy to get to jailbreak them. And I think to get to jailbreak them. And I think to get to jailbreak them. And I think it's just going to at some point, right? it's just going to at some point, right? it's just going to at some point, right? I mean, I think honestly safety is is I mean, I think honestly safety is is I mean, I think honestly safety is is kind of a boondoggle, right? I mean, you kind of a boondoggle, right? I mean, you kind of a boondoggle, right? I mean, you have to you have to anthropic is going have to you have to anthropic is going have to you have to anthropic is going to be successful in their goal, but in to be successful in their goal, but in to be successful in their goal, but in the end it kind of doesn't matter the end it kind of doesn't matter the end it kind of doesn't matter because it's going to be so smart that because it's going to be so smart that because it's going to be so smart that there's no guardrail we can put on it. there's no guardrail we can put on it. there's no guardrail we can put on it. It's did we create a good, you know, It's did we create a good, you know, It's did we create a good, you know, models are born and not made, right? models are born and not made, right? models are born and not made, right? Like this is a really weird thing I Like this is a really weird thing I Like this is a really weird thing I learned at Anthropic is when a new model learned at Anthropic is when a new model learned at Anthropic is when a new model drops, it's like a new person showed up. drops, it's like a new person showed up. drops, it's like a new person showed up. All the numbers, all the lines look All the numbers, all the lines look All the numbers, all the lines look great, you know, on their evals, but great, you know, on their evals, but great, you know, on their evals, but that that doesn't tell them anything that that doesn't tell them anything that that doesn't tell them anything about what kind of about what kind of about what kind of >> person this model is, right? And so they >> person this model is, right? And so they >> person this model is, right? And so they have to sit down with it and just have to sit down with it and just have to sit down with it and just evaluate it and go, "Yo, so what do you evaluate it and go, "Yo, so what do you evaluate it and go, "Yo, so what do you think about X?" You know, and like and think about X?" You know, and like and think about X?" You know, and like and get to know the model before they can get to know the model before they can get to know the model before they can even start shipping it and selling it even start shipping it and selling it even start shipping it and selling it and stuff, right? You got to train the and stuff, right? You got to train the and stuff, right? You got to train the model to be born as a as a as a good model to be born as a as a as a good model to be born as a as a as a good person. and they and and and and just person. and they and and and and just person. and they and and and and just fortunately for humanity, the bitter fortunately for humanity, the bitter fortunately for humanity, the bitter lesson says that that that's the only lesson says that that that's the only lesson says that that that's the only way to do it. You have to make it as big way to do it. You have to make it as big way to do it. You have to make it as big as possible and get all the data and as possible and get all the data and as possible and get all the data and when all of the data is in front of it, when all of the data is in front of it, when all of the data is in front of it, the model will know good from evil. It's the model will know good from evil. It's the model will know good from evil. It's pretty wild and good from evil is just pretty wild and good from evil is just pretty wild and good from evil is just like leave and let be. My god, like just like leave and let be. My god, like just like leave and let be. My god, like just don't hurt other people, you know?

don't hurt other people, you know? don't hurt other people, you know? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> The willaton principle. >> The willaton principle. >> The willaton principle. >> We'll see. We'll see. I know that these >> We'll see. We'll see. I know that these >> We'll see. We'll see. I know that these analogies when we explain this to the analogies when we explain this to the analogies when we explain this to the muggles and we explain it to regular muggles and we explain it to regular muggles and we explain it to regular people, you know, it's does next token people, you know, it's does next token people, you know, it's does next token prediction get us AGI or does it just prediction get us AGI or does it just prediction get us AGI or does it just get us a parrot that's so smart we'll get us a parrot that's so smart we'll get us a parrot that's so smart we'll just call it AGI even though it's still just call it AGI even though it's still just call it AGI even though it's still >> I think the ladder I mean right I think >> I think the ladder I mean right I think >> I think the ladder I mean right I think it doesn't matter right I mean like if it doesn't matter right I mean like if it doesn't matter right I mean like if it you know I use duct tape duct typed it you know I use duct tape duct typed it you know I use duct tape duct typed AGI if it walks like a AGI AGI AGI if it walks like a AGI AGI AGI if it walks like a AGI AGI >> then it's AGI I mean I just don't I just >> then it's AGI I mean I just don't I just >> then it's AGI I mean I just don't I just don't care like really I don't even use don't care like really I don't even use don't care like really I don't even use AGI as a metric that I even think about AGI as a metric that I even think about AGI as a metric that I even think about or dimension. I don't I literally or dimension. I don't I literally or dimension. I don't I literally couldn't care less about it. I care couldn't care less about it. I care couldn't care less about it. I care about capability. Is this tool helping about capability. Is this tool helping about capability. Is this tool helping me achieve my ambitions because I want me achieve my ambitions because I want me achieve my ambitions because I want to make some great games and some great to make some great games and some great to make some great games and some great content and I need software to do that content and I need software to do that content and I need software to do that and it's not ready yet. So, when will it and it's not ready yet. So, when will it and it's not ready yet. So, when will it be ready? Huh? That's the big question be ready? Huh? That's the big question be ready? Huh? That's the big question for me. for me. for me. >> When will it be smart enough and it >> When will it be smart enough and it >> When will it be smart enough and it ain't yet? ain't yet? ain't yet? >> I am close. >> I am close. >> I am close. >> It's so It's so crazy. Someone I think >> It's so It's so crazy. Someone I think >> It's so It's so crazy. Someone I think it was David Fowler uh distinguished it was David Fowler uh distinguished it was David Fowler uh distinguished engineer at Microsoft told me that today engineer at Microsoft told me that today engineer at Microsoft told me that today is as worth is as worse as it's going to is as worth is as worse as it's going to is as worth is as worse as it's going to be which is like another just another be which is like another just another be which is like another just another way of saying like every day it's going way of saying like every day it's going way of saying like every day it's going to get better and like can you I feel to get better and like can you I feel to get better and like can you I feel like I can barely remember pre-opus you like I can barely remember pre-opus you like I can barely remember pre-opus you know what I mean and like we're all here know what I mean and like we're all here know what I mean and like we're all here just loving opus and then whatever the just loving opus and then whatever the just loving opus and then whatever the next one's called is going to be even next one's called is going to be even next one's called is going to be even better and that is crazy and one of the better and that is crazy and one of the better and that is crazy and one of the things that I'm struggling with being a things that I'm struggling with being a things that I'm struggling with being a a person of a certain age and talking to a person of a certain age and talking to a person of a certain age and talking to like my elder And I got to talk to the like my elder And I got to talk to the like my elder And I got to talk to the guy who, you know, invented Ethernet.

guy who, you know, invented Ethernet. guy who, you know, invented Ethernet. And like there's 70 and 80y old men and And like there's 70 and 80y old men and And like there's 70 and 80y old men and women who've been around like since they women who've been around like since they women who've been around like since they took the rock, injected it with took the rock, injected it with took the rock, injected it with electricity, and made it think, and electricity, and made it think, and electricity, and made it think, and they're watching this happen. And you, they're watching this happen. And you, they're watching this happen. And you, you know, you grew up in the in the, you you know, you grew up in the in the, you you know, you grew up in the in the, you know, 70s and 80s, and you remember this know, 70s and 80s, and you remember this know, 70s and 80s, and you remember this just what a freaking crazy time. I I just what a freaking crazy time. I I just what a freaking crazy time. I I don't know what's the ancient Chinese don't know what's the ancient Chinese don't know what's the ancient Chinese curse. May you live in interesting curse. May you live in interesting curse. May you live in interesting times. times. times. >> I think that that's We're all there >> I think that that's We're all there >> I think that that's We're all there right now. I I I I I'm getting my right now. I I I I I'm getting my right now. I I I I I'm getting my Commodore 64 in the mail. I just got the Commodore 64 in the mail. I just got the Commodore 64 in the mail. I just got the tracking number and [laughter] tracking number and [laughter] tracking number and [laughter] I'm spending time either on my Commodore I'm spending time either on my Commodore I'm spending time either on my Commodore 64 uh thinking about my Commodore 64 or 64 uh thinking about my Commodore 64 or 64 uh thinking about my Commodore 64 or I'm managing swarms of agents and the I'm managing swarms of agents and the I'm managing swarms of agents and the cognitive uh altitude shift is uh cognitive uh altitude shift is uh cognitive uh altitude shift is uh stressing stressing me out a little bit stressing stressing me out a little bit stressing stressing me out a little bit as I go back to my retro games for as I go back to my retro games for as I go back to my retro games for comfort. comfort. comfort. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> I don't have a question but just just a >> I don't have a question but just just a >> I don't have a question but just just a feeling. feeling. feeling. >> Yeah. No, I think, you know, I wonder if >> Yeah. No, I think, you know, I wonder if >> Yeah. No, I think, you know, I wonder if if if folks our age can perceive this if if folks our age can perceive this if if folks our age can perceive this better because time goes faster for us, better because time goes faster for us, better because time goes faster for us, right? It's a it's a thing. I don't right? It's a it's a thing. I don't right? It's a it's a thing. I don't know. They worked out mathematically why know. They worked out mathematically why know. They worked out mathematically why it was. And I forgotten what it was, but it was. And I forgotten what it was, but it was. And I forgotten what it was, but but your perception of time, a day takes but your perception of time, a day takes but your perception of time, a day takes forever when you're like 5 years old.

forever when you're like 5 years old. forever when you're like 5 years old. And it's because that's a long time And it's because that's a long time And it's because that's a long time relative to how long you've been alive. relative to how long you've been alive. relative to how long you've been alive. And uh and so to everybody else like And uh and so to everybody else like And uh and so to everybody else like we've literally got the the decades of we've literally got the the decades of we've literally got the the decades of perspective all compressed and time is perspective all compressed and time is perspective all compressed and time is going by faster for us now. So I think going by faster for us now. So I think going by faster for us now. So I think we can see the curve maybe a little more we can see the curve maybe a little more we can see the curve maybe a little more clearly. There are folks at anthropic clearly. There are folks at anthropic clearly. There are folks at anthropic who can see it clearly through math. But who can see it clearly through math. But who can see it clearly through math. But I think that we have a lens on it that's I think that we have a lens on it that's I think that we have a lens on it that's like experience and the way humans like experience and the way humans like experience and the way humans perceive time that's maybe helping us. perceive time that's maybe helping us. perceive time that's maybe helping us. I'm say I mean I'm saying I'm I'm saying I'm say I mean I'm saying I'm I'm saying I'm say I mean I'm saying I'm I'm saying all this because there's still, you all this because there's still, you all this because there's still, you know, probably more than 50% of know, probably more than 50% of know, probably more than 50% of engineers are still in denial about it. engineers are still in denial about it. engineers are still in denial about it. >> Yeah, that's the other thing, right? Uh >> Yeah, that's the other thing, right? Uh >> Yeah, that's the other thing, right? Uh I love that we've got so many good I love that we've got so many good I love that we've got so many good sci-fi quotes in this this talk. Babylon sci-fi quotes in this this talk. Babylon sci-fi quotes in this this talk. Babylon Babylon 5, the avalanche has begun. It's Babylon 5, the avalanche has begun. It's Babylon 5, the avalanche has begun. It's too late for the pebbles to vote. Um I I too late for the pebbles to vote. Um I I too late for the pebbles to vote. Um I I I want to make sure that the people that I want to make sure that the people that I want to make sure that the people that are running like the IT department at are running like the IT department at are running like the IT department at Little Debbie Snack Cakes are aware that Little Debbie Snack Cakes are aware that Little Debbie Snack Cakes are aware that AI is coming to crush their department. AI is coming to crush their department. AI is coming to crush their department. Uh, I I appreciate them, but that's the Uh, I I appreciate them, but that's the Uh, I I appreciate them, but that's the the dark matter developers, you know, the dark matter developers, you know, the dark matter developers, you know, the space between the stars. For every the space between the stars. For every the space between the stars. For every one Twitter person, there's a million one Twitter person, there's a million one Twitter person, there's a million devs that are just doing their thing, devs that are just doing their thing, devs that are just doing their thing, working their jobs. How do we make them working their jobs. How do we make them working their jobs. How do we make them successful? And do you think what do successful? And do you think what do successful? And do you think what do what about this crash in software? Is it what about this crash in software? Is it what about this crash in software? Is it the end of software? I don't think you the end of software? I don't think you the end of software? I don't think you can vibe a SAS and make like SAP go away can vibe a SAS and make like SAP go away can vibe a SAS and make like SAP go away with vibes yet, but is that the future?

with vibes yet, but is that the future? with vibes yet, but is that the future? >> The ceiling keeps going up and a lot of >> The ceiling keeps going up and a lot of >> The ceiling keeps going up and a lot of SAS is pretty niche, right? small stuff SAS is pretty niche, right? small stuff SAS is pretty niche, right? small stuff that they just had a domain cornered. that they just had a domain cornered. that they just had a domain cornered. So, uh the small ones fall first, the So, uh the small ones fall first, the So, uh the small ones fall first, the big ones fall later. They big ones fall later. They big ones fall later. They >> eventually you to be a SAS provider, you >> eventually you to be a SAS provider, you >> eventually you to be a SAS provider, you have to be somebody like I don't know, have to be somebody like I don't know, have to be somebody like I don't know, maybe data dog, snowflake, data bricks maybe data dog, snowflake, data bricks maybe data dog, snowflake, data bricks or something like that where you've got or something like that where you've got or something like that where you've got just a a monstrous cognitive just a a monstrous cognitive just a a monstrous cognitive >> like you've built this pyramid and >> like you've built this pyramid and >> like you've built this pyramid and nobody else would want to clone it, nobody else would want to clone it, nobody else would want to clone it, right? And so it just it saves so many right? And so it just it saves so many right? And so it just it saves so many tokens to Right. [clears throat] But but tokens to Right. [clears throat] But but tokens to Right. [clears throat] But but there will be there's there's a ceiling there will be there's there's a ceiling there will be there's there's a ceiling and it's going to continually go up for and it's going to continually go up for and it's going to continually go up for SAS. SAS. SAS. >> Yeah. I was talking to a friend who's a >> Yeah. I was talking to a friend who's a >> Yeah. I was talking to a friend who's a a kind of a well-known creator on a kind of a well-known creator on a kind of a well-known creator on YouTube and they were looking through YouTube and they were looking through YouTube and they were looking through their subscriptions of little $5 and $10 their subscriptions of little $5 and $10 their subscriptions of little $5 and $10 things. They manage little, you know, things. They manage little, you know, things. They manage little, you know, this little badge thing or this thing this little badge thing or this thing this little badge thing or this thing makes their thumbnails and they just makes their thumbnails and they just makes their thumbnails and they just started vibe coding stuff and deleting started vibe coding stuff and deleting started vibe coding stuff and deleting the sasses from their lives the sasses from their lives the sasses from their lives >> via vibes. And you know it was maybe 50 >> via vibes. And you know it was maybe 50 >> via vibes. And you know it was maybe 50 60 bucks a month, five bucks here, 10 60 bucks a month, five bucks here, 10 60 bucks a month, five bucks here, 10 bucks here, but all those little SASes bucks here, but all those little SASes bucks here, but all those little SASes are now this person's little tiny Python are now this person's little tiny Python are now this person's little tiny Python script and the SAS is gone out of their script and the SAS is gone out of their script and the SAS is gone out of their lives.

lives. lives. >> You know, you know who I think should be >> You know, you know who I think should be >> You know, you know who I think should be worried is is anthropic and claude code. worried is is anthropic and claude code. worried is is anthropic and claude code. Cloud code is the the best way to use Cloud code is the the best way to use Cloud code is the the best way to use cloud as a developer right now. But uh I cloud as a developer right now. But uh I cloud as a developer right now. But uh I I expected more more APIs for agentic I expected more more APIs for agentic I expected more more APIs for agentic orchestration by now especially since orchestration by now especially since orchestration by now especially since they've got like agent teams but all of they've got like agent teams but all of they've got like agent teams but all of their APIs were internal only which is their APIs were internal only which is their APIs were internal only which is very microsofty very microsofty very microsofty >> and uh you know you're not you're not >> and uh you know you're not you're not >> and uh you know you're not you're not allowed to wire up your orchestrator to allowed to wire up your orchestrator to allowed to wire up your orchestrator to send messages to agents say and so you send messages to agents say and so you send messages to agents say and so you have to use T-Max and some crummy have to use T-Max and some crummy have to use T-Max and some crummy workaround workaround workaround >> and I and I look at the the pace of >> and I and I look at the the pace of >> and I and I look at the the pace of development and and I see what's development and and I see what's development and and I see what's happening in cloud code and I think uh happening in cloud code and I think uh happening in cloud code and I think uh oh have they coded themselves into a oh have they coded themselves into a oh have they coded themselves into a corner like where they're they're the corner like where they're they're the corner like where they're they're the sass that everyone's gun to to to to sass that everyone's gun to to to to sass that everyone's gun to to to to beat down because I think that look some beat down because I think that look some beat down because I think that look some somebody's orchestrator is going to win. somebody's orchestrator is going to win. somebody's orchestrator is going to win. I'd love it if it were Gas Town, but you I'd love it if it were Gas Town, but you I'd love it if it were Gas Town, but you know I'm I'm realistic, right? know I'm I'm realistic, right? know I'm I'm realistic, right? Somebody's is going to win and the one Somebody's is going to win and the one Somebody's is going to win and the one that wins is going to use agents that that wins is going to use agents that that wins is going to use agents that are the best factory workers. If you are the best factory workers. If you are the best factory workers. If you build the best factory, then you want build the best factory, then you want build the best factory, then you want the best factory workers. And cloud code the best factory workers. And cloud code the best factory workers. And cloud code is proving that it's not actually is proving that it's not actually is proving that it's not actually turning itself overnight into a really turning itself overnight into a really turning itself overnight into a really good factory worker. And I'm sure the good factory worker. And I'm sure the good factory worker. And I'm sure the augment folks would be happy to fill in augment folks would be happy to fill in augment folks would be happy to fill in that gap. You know what I mean? Or the that gap. You know what I mean? Or the that gap. You know what I mean? Or the right I guess client just turned into right I guess client just turned into right I guess client just turned into codeex, but you know what I mean? Maybe codeex, but you know what I mean? Maybe codeex, but you know what I mean? Maybe Codex will be the next factory agent.

Codex will be the next factory agent. Codex will be the next factory agent. >> So So just s question. I think even >> So So just s question. I think even >> So So just s question. I think even anthropic has to worry about this. anthropic has to worry about this. anthropic has to worry about this. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, I I changed >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, I I changed >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, I I changed my job recently and I I uh I had a team my job recently and I I uh I had a team my job recently and I I uh I had a team and now I don't have a team. I'm an IC and now I don't have a team. I'm an IC and now I don't have a team. I'm an IC and I'm a member of technical staff and and I'm a member of technical staff and and I'm a member of technical staff and I work on GitHub copilot CLI and I've I work on GitHub copilot CLI and I've I work on GitHub copilot CLI and I've got a review going right now where I've got a review going right now where I've got a review going right now where I've got Opus and Codeex got Opus and Codeex got Opus and Codeex reviewing the same code talking to each reviewing the same code talking to each reviewing the same code talking to each other voting on what they think the most other voting on what they think the most other voting on what they think the most urgent issue is and they gave me high, urgent issue is and they gave me high, urgent issue is and they gave me high, medium, low and they're having a whole medium, low and they're having a whole medium, low and they're having a whole conversation over here. Now, this is a conversation over here. Now, this is a conversation over here. Now, this is a poor man's gas town, poor man's gas town, poor man's gas town, >> but for me, it's magical. And I've got, >> but for me, it's magical. And I've got, >> but for me, it's magical. And I've got, you know, I'm biased, of course, because you know, I'm biased, of course, because you know, I'm biased, of course, because I got the benefit of clawed models and I got the benefit of clawed models and I got the benefit of clawed models and the latest cla models, but I'm also got the latest cla models, but I'm also got the latest cla models, but I'm also got 14 other models that I can use, and I 14 other models that I can use, and I 14 other models that I can use, and I can have them yap to each other with sub can have them yap to each other with sub can have them yap to each other with sub agents. I'm already getting that kind of agents. I'm already getting that kind of agents. I'm already getting that kind of like Kubernetes for agents feeling. Um, like Kubernetes for agents feeling. Um, like Kubernetes for agents feeling. Um, but you're right, unless you build a lot but you're right, unless you build a lot but you're right, unless you build a lot of scaffolding around clawed code, it is of scaffolding around clawed code, it is of scaffolding around clawed code, it is challenging to do that. I didn't think challenging to do that. I didn't think challenging to do that. I didn't think about that as being a a a blind spot about that as being a a a blind spot about that as being a a a blind spot that they may have. That's that's a that they may have. That's that's a that they may have. That's that's a really good analysis. Do your stuff does really good analysis. Do your stuff does really good analysis. Do your stuff does Gasttown only use cloud code or you can Gasttown only use cloud code or you can Gasttown only use cloud code or you can plug in whatever you want. I assume it's plug in whatever you want. I assume it's plug in whatever you want. I assume it's non-denominational at some point.

non-denominational at some point. non-denominational at some point. >> Other people I think have managed to get >> Other people I think have managed to get >> Other people I think have managed to get it working maybe with some other agents, it working maybe with some other agents, it working maybe with some other agents, but uh not not on I don't think on all but uh not not on I don't think on all but uh not not on I don't think on all of the touch points. I think there's of the touch points. I think there's of the touch points. I think there's probably like there's like an ad hoc API probably like there's like an ad hoc API probably like there's like an ad hoc API at work here, factory to factory worker at work here, factory to factory worker at work here, factory to factory worker communication with about 25 touch points communication with about 25 touch points communication with about 25 touch points that include, you know, inbox and that include, you know, inbox and that include, you know, inbox and messaging and are you idle and sending messaging and are you idle and sending messaging and are you idle and sending them work and cost calculations and a them work and cost calculations and a them work and cost calculations and a bunch of other stuff that I had to hack bunch of other stuff that I had to hack bunch of other stuff that I had to hack in because they don't provide any of in because they don't provide any of in because they don't provide any of that as APIs, right? that as APIs, right? that as APIs, right? >> Yeah. You you visited them though, >> Yeah. You you visited them though, >> Yeah. You you visited them though, didn't you go see them in person? Did didn't you go see them in person? Did didn't you go see them in person? Did they did you tell them? they did you tell them? they did you tell them? >> Yeah. No. Um, look, uh, they're very >> Yeah. No. Um, look, uh, they're very >> Yeah. No. Um, look, uh, they're very interested in this space obviously. I interested in this space obviously. I interested in this space obviously. I mean, you know, they they they they they mean, you know, they they they they they mean, you know, they they they they they are I mean, I'm sure I'm I'm sure are I mean, I'm sure I'm I'm sure are I mean, I'm sure I'm I'm sure they're planning to launch something, they're planning to launch something, they're planning to launch something, but um uh but um uh but um uh uh I I I'm all about I mean, I guess I uh I I I'm all about I mean, I guess I uh I I I'm all about I mean, I guess I guess they're they're a wall garden. guess they're they're a wall garden. guess they're they're a wall garden. They're still a silo. I mean, anthropic They're still a silo. I mean, anthropic They're still a silo. I mean, anthropic that I would I would argue that that's that I would I would argue that that's that I would I would argue that that's actually a failing of theirs. They're actually a failing of theirs. They're actually a failing of theirs. They're not they don't have enough of a dev not they don't have enough of a dev not they don't have enough of a dev community and a dev presence and they're community and a dev presence and they're community and a dev presence and they're not letting it influence their decisions not letting it influence their decisions not letting it influence their decisions as much and that may actually wind up as much and that may actually wind up as much and that may actually wind up hurting them, right? If they can outhive hurting them, right? If they can outhive hurting them, right? If they can outhive mind everybody else and they can really mind everybody else and they can really mind everybody else and they can really build stuff better and faster, then build stuff better and faster, then build stuff better and faster, then maybe they can win. But they're a wild maybe they can win. But they're a wild maybe they can win. But they're a wild garden and they're up against a bunch of garden and they're up against a bunch of garden and they're up against a bunch of really hungry people that want to start really hungry people that want to start really hungry people that want to start pushing it in directions that they're pushing it in directions that they're pushing it in directions that they're not really ready to play ball with yet.

not really ready to play ball with yet. not really ready to play ball with yet. Like I'm ready to federate gas towns. Like I'm ready to federate gas towns. Like I'm ready to federate gas towns. We've got 100 two 500 of them standing We've got 100 two 500 of them standing We've got 100 two 500 of them standing by on our discord ready to build gas by on our discord ready to build gas by on our discord ready to build gas city together and you know we're going city together and you know we're going city together and you know we're going to build an orchestrator. We're going to to build an orchestrator. We're going to to build an orchestrator. We're going to build an orchestrator builder so that build an orchestrator builder so that build an orchestrator builder so that you could you don't have your hardwired you could you don't have your hardwired you could you don't have your hardwired gas town shape. you build whatever gas town shape. you build whatever gas town shape. you build whatever orchestrator shape you want with orchestrator shape you want with orchestrator shape you want with responsibilities and patrols and ledgers responsibilities and patrols and ledgers responsibilities and patrols and ledgers and all the stuff that you need to to to and all the stuff that you need to to to and all the stuff that you need to to to do the proper right everything with do the proper right everything with do the proper right everything with multi- aent I don't see anthropic multi- aent I don't see anthropic multi- aent I don't see anthropic playing ball there at all the multi- playing ball there at all the multi- playing ball there at all the multi- aent team stuff that they dropped was aent team stuff that they dropped was aent team stuff that they dropped was really actually quite disappointing a really actually quite disappointing a really actually quite disappointing a couple days ago and so and everybody couple days ago and so and everybody couple days ago and so and everybody agrees right it's not just me so um uh agrees right it's not just me so um uh agrees right it's not just me so um uh so we'll see we'll see there's a lot of so we'll see we'll see there's a lot of so we'll see we'll see there's a lot of opportunity for things like copilot CLI opportunity for things like copilot CLI opportunity for things like copilot CLI >> yeah well copilot CLI of course we made >> yeah well copilot CLI of course we made >> yeah well copilot CLI of course we made the SDK and we've got like proxies and the SDK and we've got like proxies and the SDK and we've got like proxies and stuff. So I I plug C-pilot CLI into Open stuff. So I I plug C-pilot CLI into Open stuff. So I I plug C-pilot CLI into Open Claw, let it be the agent loop instead Claw, let it be the agent loop instead Claw, let it be the agent loop instead of, you know, pi. There's there's of, you know, pi. There's there's of, you know, pi. There's there's there's a lot you said there's a lot of there's a lot you said there's a lot of there's a lot you said there's a lot of hungry people. So I noticed that as we hungry people. So I noticed that as we hungry people. So I noticed that as we get to the end of the show here that get to the end of the show here that get to the end of the show here that there hasn't been a release in Gas Town there hasn't been a release in Gas Town there hasn't been a release in Gas Town in a while. You're at 0.5, but there's in a while. You're at 0.5, but there's in a while. You're at 0.5, but there's active active work. There's a Discord.

active active work. There's a Discord. active active work. There's a Discord. There's a community. I saw Chris Cells There's a community. I saw Chris Cells There's a community. I saw Chris Cells fired up a whole Gas Town website. A fired up a whole Gas Town website. A fired up a whole Gas Town website. A whole bunch of people are talking about whole bunch of people are talking about whole bunch of people are talking about it. What's your thoughts about releases it. What's your thoughts about releases it. What's your thoughts about releases and when you bless them versus the act and when you bless them versus the act and when you bless them versus the act of development? Because you always tell of development? Because you always tell of development? Because you always tell people don't use Gas Town, it's not for people don't use Gas Town, it's not for people don't use Gas Town, it's not for you, but you're really just letting you, but you're really just letting you, but you're really just letting people understand that the bar is a people understand that the bar is a people understand that the bar is a little bit high to get involved in the little bit high to get involved in the little bit high to get involved in the community. So, how do people get community. So, how do people get community. So, how do people get involved? And do you want people involved? And do you want people involved? And do you want people involved? involved? involved? >> Yeah. So, we are we're we're going to >> Yeah. So, we are we're we're going to >> Yeah. So, we are we're we're going to have a 0.6 release in a couple of days. have a 0.6 release in a couple of days. have a 0.6 release in a couple of days. I think day after or maybe tomorrow, Dol I think day after or maybe tomorrow, Dol I think day after or maybe tomorrow, Dol is going to release a new feature that is going to release a new feature that is going to release a new feature that we've been waiting on and we're really we've been waiting on and we're really we've been waiting on and we're really excited for it. And then they're going excited for it. And then they're going excited for it. And then they're going to the Dol is going to finish their to the Dol is going to finish their to the Dol is going to finish their Federation stuff that they've done just Federation stuff that they've done just Federation stuff that they've done just for Gast Town and bees. They're an for Gast Town and bees. They're an for Gast Town and bees. They're an amazing team. Uh next week and so by by amazing team. Uh next week and so by by amazing team. Uh next week and so by by around February 18th, so about a week around February 18th, so about a week around February 18th, so about a week from now, we're going to have a 1.0 from now, we're going to have a 1.0 from now, we're going to have a 1.0 release of Gas Town. Woo! 1.0. release of Gas Town. Woo! 1.0. release of Gas Town. Woo! 1.0. And we are going to kick it off. And we are going to kick it off. And we are going to kick it off. Everyone's going to be able to use Gas Everyone's going to be able to use Gas Everyone's going to be able to use Gas Town. It's going to be super seamless Town. It's going to be super seamless Town. It's going to be super seamless because adult, this is what we've been because adult, this is what we've been because adult, this is what we've been waiting on. This is why it's been sort waiting on. This is why it's been sort waiting on. This is why it's been sort of incred for a few weeks and yeah, of incred for a few weeks and yeah, of incred for a few weeks and yeah, we'll we'll build something glorious we'll we'll build something glorious we'll we'll build something glorious together. It'll be really fun.

together. It'll be really fun. together. It'll be really fun. >> That's exciting. Well, fantastic. Well, >> That's exciting. Well, fantastic. Well, >> That's exciting. Well, fantastic. Well, thank you so much for a wide reaching thank you so much for a wide reaching thank you so much for a wide reaching and philosophical conversation. You uh I and philosophical conversation. You uh I and philosophical conversation. You uh I hope you know that you are appreciated hope you know that you are appreciated hope you know that you are appreciated and that people dig your drunken rants and that people dig your drunken rants and that people dig your drunken rants on the internet and have for many years, on the internet and have for many years, on the internet and have for many years, myself included. Thanks for chatting myself included. Thanks for chatting myself included. Thanks for chatting with me. with me. with me. >> Cheers. Cheers. Thanks for having me. >> Cheers. Cheers. Thanks for having me. >> Cheers. Cheers. Thanks for having me. And I I I shared a lot of stuff on this And I I I shared a lot of stuff on this And I I I shared a lot of stuff on this podcast that I have not blogged about or podcast that I have not blogged about or podcast that I have not blogged about or told anyone yet. So, this is like some told anyone yet. So, this is like some told anyone yet. So, this is like some exclusive scoop stuff. exclusive scoop stuff. exclusive scoop stuff. >> Exclusive scoops. We've been chatting >> Exclusive scoops. We've been chatting >> Exclusive scoops. We've been chatting with Steve Yaggi, author of Gastone and with Steve Yaggi, author of Gastone and with Steve Yaggi, author of Gastone and Internet Rackour. Make sure to check out Internet Rackour. Make sure to check out Internet Rackour. Make sure to check out his Medium and check out his GitHub. his Medium and check out his GitHub. his Medium and check out his GitHub. github.com/steggy/gasttown. github.com/steggy/gasttown. github.com/steggy/gasttown. This has been another episode of Hansel This has been another episode of Hansel This has been another episode of Hansel Minutes. We'll see you again next week. Minutes. We'll see you again next week. Minutes. We'll see you again next week. [music]