Scott & Mark Learn To...Have Taste

So, So, when is taste an opinion? when is taste an opinion? when is taste an opinion? Where it's just like, well, Mark's fancy Where it's just like, well, Mark's fancy Where it's just like, well, Mark's fancy and he has an opinion and we should all and he has an opinion and we should all and he has an opinion and we should all listen to Mark versus taste. Like, listen to Mark versus taste. Like, listen to Mark versus taste. Like, you know, you'll you'll see a movie and you know, you'll you'll see a movie and you know, you'll you'll see a movie and someone will say, "I didn't think it was someone will say, "I didn't think it was someone will say, "I didn't think it was that good." And it won more Oscars than that good." And it won more Oscars than that good." And it won more Oscars than any movie in history. And we saw it at any movie in history. And we saw it at any movie in history. And we saw it at your house. And I'm arguing with my wife your house. And I'm arguing with my wife your house. And I'm arguing with my wife like she didn't like it. And it's like, like she didn't like it. And it's like, like she didn't like it. And it's like, >> what you mean. >> what you mean. >> what you mean. You don't have to like it. You don't have to like it. You don't have to like it. >> Talk about it. I know. We don't need to >> Talk about it. I know. We don't need to >> Talk about it. I know. We don't need to talk about the movie, but how can you talk about the movie, but how can you talk about the movie, but how can you not like this movie? She's like, "Ah, it not like this movie? She's like, "Ah, it not like this movie? She's like, "Ah, it wasn't my thing." So, when does art or wasn't my thing." So, when does art or wasn't my thing." So, when does art or taste become subjective versus taste become subjective versus taste become subjective versus objective? Like, you know, Mona Lisa, objective? Like, you know, Mona Lisa, objective? Like, you know, Mona Lisa, David, eh. Oh, man, you just opened a Oh, man, you just opened a giant can, didn't you? giant can, didn't you? giant can, didn't you? >> Let's Let's do it. Let's go. >> Because >> Because >> Like, people call us >> Like, people call us >> Like, people call us >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> which is a very fortunate thing, when >> which is a very fortunate thing, when >> which is a very fortunate thing, when they want reviews of things. Sometimes they want reviews of things. Sometimes they want reviews of things. Sometimes they want reviews of code, sometimes they want reviews of code, sometimes they want reviews of code, sometimes they want reviews of architecture for they want reviews of architecture for they want reviews of architecture for their systems. their systems. their systems. And in the doing of that, And in the doing of that, And in the doing of that, presumably, they we have them on a presumably, they we have them on a presumably, they we have them on a certain amount of taste. certain amount of taste. certain amount of taste. Um, Um, Um, I've had a couple of teams have regular I've had a couple of teams have regular I've had a couple of teams have regular weeklies with me where we go through the weeklies with me where we go through the weeklies with me where we go through the product and we make sure that it works product and we make sure that it works product and we make sure that it works the way it should work because they have the way it should work because they have the way it should work because they have said very kindly with the compliment, said very kindly with the compliment, said very kindly with the compliment, "You have good taste." "You have good taste." "You have good taste." How did How did How did I get good taste? I get good taste? I get good taste? >> Let me separate uh something out apart >> Let me separate uh something out apart >> Let me separate uh something out apart here because I think when you talk you here because I think when you talk you here because I think when you talk you you mentioned the Mona Lisa or a movie, you mentioned the Mona Lisa or a movie, you mentioned the Mona Lisa or a movie, >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> there's >> there's >> there's >> Or button placement in a house. >> Or button placement in a house. >> Or button placement in a house. >> criticism versus I I I view that as a >> criticism versus I I I view that as a >> criticism versus I I I view that as a little bit different than product. But, little bit different than product. But, little bit different than product. But, because you're because you're because you're there is a personal taste there. Like, there is a personal taste there. Like, there is a personal taste there. Like, you know, you know, you know, Mo not liking the movie is her personal Mo not liking the movie is her personal Mo not liking the movie is her personal taste. It's not her judgment of it as an taste. It's not her judgment of it as an taste. It's not her judgment of it as an artistic work. But the whole planet artistic work. But the whole planet artistic work. But the whole planet loves the movie or the art or the thing.

loves the movie or the art or the thing. loves the movie or the art or the thing. Like, Like, Like, is there can someone just be contrarian? is there can someone just be contrarian? is there can someone just be contrarian? Well, people have their own like some Well, people have their own like some Well, people have their own like some people don't like action movies. Well, people don't like action movies. Well, people don't like action movies. Well, some people don't like horror movies. some people don't like horror movies. some people don't like horror movies. Some people have different sense of Some people have different sense of Some people have different sense of humor. humor. humor. It's Catholics. It's Catholics. It's Catholics. You know, You know, You know, and even when it comes to how the app and even when it comes to how the app and even when it comes to how the app should behave, how the UX should behave, should behave, how the UX should behave, should behave, how the UX should behave, when you click on something, what should when you click on something, what should when you click on something, what should happen, happen, happen, there is some personal preference there. there is some personal preference there. there is some personal preference there. Doesn't Like, Doesn't Like, Doesn't Like, when I'm making decisions for things on when I'm making decisions for things on when I'm making decisions for things on Sysinternals tools, Sysinternals tools, Sysinternals tools, >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> it's my personal preference. It just >> it's my personal preference. It just >> it's my personal preference. It just happens that a lot of people like those happens that a lot of people like those happens that a lot of people like those personal preferences I have because I I personal preferences I have because I I personal preferences I have because I I find them I I base them on in- find them I I base them on in- find them I I base them on in- tuitiveness tuitiveness tuitiveness and ease of use. and ease of use. and ease of use. >> But ultimately, you wrote them for >> But ultimately, you wrote them for >> But ultimately, you wrote them for yourself, and now everyone uses them. yourself, and now everyone uses them. yourself, and now everyone uses them. Like, when you wrote the video trimmer, Like, when you wrote the video trimmer, Like, when you wrote the video trimmer, I gave you crap about some of the UI I gave you crap about some of the UI I gave you crap about some of the UI stuff, and you're like, "No, I'm doing stuff, and you're like, "No, I'm doing stuff, and you're like, "No, I'm doing it like this." it like this." it like this." >> Yeah. This is for me. >> Yeah. This is for me. >> Yeah. This is for me. >> let's let's take ZoomIt, and >> let's let's take ZoomIt, and >> let's let's take ZoomIt, and you know, it's it's you know, it's it's you know, it's it's just to continue on that one because I just to continue on that one because I just to continue on that one because I think that one's a great example. When I think that one's a great example. When I think that one's a great example. When I made ZoomIt, I I told you I was made ZoomIt, I I told you I was made ZoomIt, I I told you I was frustrated with an existing tool that frustrated with an existing tool that frustrated with an existing tool that came bundled with a laptop for zooming came bundled with a laptop for zooming came bundled with a laptop for zooming the screen, and it was very clunky. The the screen, and it was very clunky. The the screen, and it was very clunky. The zooming was extremely clunky. And zooming was extremely clunky. And zooming was extremely clunky. And drawing was extremely clunky, and I just drawing was extremely clunky, and I just drawing was extremely clunky, and I just I want to make these natural inline I want to make these natural inline I want to make these natural inline gestures gestures gestures that are that are that are make make it look seamless.

make make it look seamless. make make it look seamless. And so, that's where I come up with the And so, that's where I come up with the And so, that's where I come up with the interface for ZoomIt is to try to make interface for ZoomIt is to try to make interface for ZoomIt is to try to make everything just keyboard driven, simple, everything just keyboard driven, simple, everything just keyboard driven, simple, easy to remember, easy to type. And easy to remember, easy to type. And easy to remember, easy to type. And that's been the whole philosophy around that's been the whole philosophy around that's been the whole philosophy around ZoomIt's functionality, and despite the ZoomIt's functionality, and despite the ZoomIt's functionality, and despite the fact that it's now overloaded and become fact that it's now overloaded and become fact that it's now overloaded and become a platform onto its own, but a platform onto its own, but a platform onto its own, but >> It is the everything app. I was waiting >> It is the everything app. I was waiting >> It is the everything app. I was waiting for ZoomIt payments to show up. for ZoomIt payments to show up. for ZoomIt payments to show up. >> I keep all my NFTs in ZoomIt. So, where >> I keep all my NFTs in ZoomIt. So, where >> I keep all my NFTs in ZoomIt. So, where do I keep Yeah, that's in the the a do I keep Yeah, that's in the the a do I keep Yeah, that's in the the a feature branch right now. feature branch right now. feature branch right now. >> Yeah, of course. >> Yeah, of course. >> Yeah, of course. >> Um >> Um >> Um but um but um but um >> [clears throat] >> I do think that >> I do think that there's people like there's people like there's people like ZoomIt specifically just a even continue ZoomIt specifically just a even continue ZoomIt specifically just a even continue with that a little more. We did that with that a little more. We did that with that a little more. We did that preceptor preceptor preceptor experiment. This small scale experiment experiment. This small scale experiment experiment. This small scale experiment where we had where we had where we had a group of people developers at a group of people developers at a group of people developers at Microsoft Microsoft Microsoft go implement the ZoomIt video tripper go implement the ZoomIt video tripper go implement the ZoomIt video tripper feature. feature. feature. >> Video trimmer, exactly right. >> Video trimmer, exactly right. >> Video trimmer, exactly right. >> Just by itself, right? >> Just by itself, right? >> Just by itself, right? >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And >> And >> And >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And a lot of them are like, here it is, >> And a lot of them are like, here it is, >> And a lot of them are like, here it is, it's done.

it's done. it's done. >> Yeah, and you didn't give them a visual >> Yeah, and you didn't give them a visual >> Yeah, and you didn't give them a visual spec. You just said, do it like this. spec. You just said, do it like this. spec. You just said, do it like this. >> And then you and I looked at them and >> And then you and I looked at them and >> And then you and I looked at them and we're like, wow, this is ugly, hard to we're like, wow, this is ugly, hard to we're like, wow, this is ugly, hard to use use use stuff. stuff. stuff. >> There was some good solid efforts. >> There was some good solid efforts. >> There was some good solid efforts. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. You're being You're being You're being very very very very generous. very generous. very generous. >> I respect the young people who worked >> I respect the young people who worked >> I respect the young people who worked very hard in their submission. very hard in their submission. very hard in their submission. >> I do too, but I think >> I do too, but I think >> I do too, but I think um that highlights um that highlights um that highlights a difference in taste that you were a difference in taste that you were a difference in taste that you were talking about. talking about. talking about. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Like universally I think >> Like universally I think >> Like universally I think people would find those you you those people would find those you you those people would find those you you those interfaces that interfaces that interfaces that we saw clunky and hard to use. we saw clunky and hard to use. we saw clunky and hard to use. >> Yeah, and there was also Yeah, there was >> Yeah, and there was also Yeah, there was >> Yeah, and there was also Yeah, there was multiple levels to the taste. There was multiple levels to the taste. There was multiple levels to the taste. There was the UX the actual user experience, and the UX the actual user experience, and the UX the actual user experience, and then there was the functionality and then there was the functionality and then there was the functionality and like expectations of what would happen like expectations of what would happen like expectations of what would happen when I clicked on this or I dragged on when I clicked on this or I dragged on when I clicked on this or I dragged on that. that. that. So, the the the holistic view on it was So, the the the holistic view on it was So, the the the holistic view on it was this is clunky at best. this is clunky at best. this is clunky at best. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> For most of them. >> For most of them. >> For most of them. >> And so, why is that? >> And so, why is that? >> And so, why is that? Is it Why am I able to in you you know, Is it Why am I able to in you you know, Is it Why am I able to in you you know, you looked at mine and you're like, it you looked at mine and you're like, it you looked at mine and you're like, it was mostly intuitive, right? And it's was mostly intuitive, right? And it's was mostly intuitive, right? And it's like what you expect out of a video like what you expect out of a video like what you expect out of a video trimmer.

trimmer. trimmer. >> So, it's You I I presume it's because you've used You I I presume it's because you've used so many video trimmers, you've been so many video trimmers, you've been so many video trimmers, you've been exposed to so many things that you have exposed to so many things that you have exposed to so many things that you have an experience on it. You've used an experience on it. You've used an experience on it. You've used computers and you get where things computers and you get where things computers and you get where things should like feel right. should like feel right. should like feel right. Like um Like um Like um I I I >> It's that. I think also I'm like what >> It's that. I think also I'm like what >> It's that. I think also I'm like what should what would I expect if I moved should what would I expect if I moved should what would I expect if I moved this or what would I want to be able to this or what would I want to be able to this or what would I want to be able to do? I want to be able to move that here do? I want to be able to move that here do? I want to be able to move that here and then that have this effect. and then that have this effect. and then that have this effect. >> But you've used video trimmers for, did >> But you've used video trimmers for, did >> But you've used video trimmers for, did you inform that based on experience you inform that based on experience you inform that based on experience trimming video? trimming video? trimming video? >> somewhat, yeah. >> somewhat, yeah. >> somewhat, yeah. >> Because >> Because >> Because I think that the biggest problem is that I think that the biggest problem is that I think that the biggest problem is that people don't see the big picture. I people don't see the big picture. I people don't see the big picture. I always I always use the term 20,000-ft always I always use the term 20,000-ft always I always use the term 20,000-ft view. view. view. Like I just I've been using um voice Like I just I've been using um voice Like I just I've been using um voice access on Windows. You you know how I do access on Windows. You you know how I do access on Windows. You you know how I do all my typing with voice, but I've also all my typing with voice, but I've also all my typing with voice, but I've also I'm using voice access, which is a I'm using voice access, which is a I'm using voice access, which is a feature in Windows where you can feature in Windows where you can feature in Windows where you can actually tell it page up, page down. So actually tell it page up, page down. So actually tell it page up, page down. So I was reviewing your document today in I was reviewing your document today in I was reviewing your document today in the big open source meeting and it's the big open source meeting and it's the big open source meeting and it's like 70 pages, right?

like 70 pages, right? like 70 pages, right? So I'm sitting here and I'm I'm So I'm sitting here and I'm I'm So I'm sitting here and I'm I'm scrolling scrolling scrolling and I'm like I'm going to use voice and I'm like I'm going to use voice and I'm like I'm going to use voice access. So I get my my kettlebell and I access. So I get my my kettlebell and I access. So I get my my kettlebell and I stand in the middle of the room and I go stand in the middle of the room and I go stand in the middle of the room and I go page down, page down, page down and I'm page down, page down, page down and I'm page down, page down, page down and I'm reading this document. And then I reading this document. And then I reading this document. And then I realized that the bar takes up the realized that the bar takes up the realized that the bar takes up the entire top top part of Windows, entire top top part of Windows, entire top top part of Windows, >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> which means that when I throw the mouse >> which means that when I throw the mouse >> which means that when I throw the mouse into the upper right corner looking for into the upper right corner looking for into the upper right corner looking for the close button, the close button, the close button, it is no longer the close button for the it is no longer the close button for the it is no longer the close button for the window. It is taken over window. It is taken over window. It is taken over by the voice access thing. And that by the voice access thing. And that by the voice access thing. And that seems like a small thing until you seems like a small thing until you seems like a small thing until you realize that realize that realize that >> I've been throwing the mouse in the >> I've been throwing the mouse in the >> I've been throwing the mouse in the corner for the past 20 years. Are you corner for the past 20 years. Are you corner for the past 20 years. Are you saying the voice access person didn't saying the voice access person didn't saying the voice access person didn't have taste? What is that what I hear you have taste? What is that what I hear you have taste? What is that what I hear you saying? saying? saying? >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> What I'm proposing is that that person >> What I'm proposing is that that person >> What I'm proposing is that that person thought about making voice access the thought about making voice access the thought about making voice access the best, which is different than making best, which is different than making best, which is different than making Windows the best. Windows the best. Windows the best. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And their muscle memory, >> And their muscle memory, >> And their muscle memory, which I caught immediately, within 2 which I caught immediately, within 2 which I caught immediately, within 2 minutes. I threw my mouse in the upper minutes. I threw my mouse in the upper minutes. I threw my mouse in the upper right corner right corner right corner and the close button wasn't there. I and the close button wasn't there. I and the close button wasn't there. I threw my mouse in the upper left corner, threw my mouse in the upper left corner, threw my mouse in the upper left corner, the system menu wasn't there, and now the system menu wasn't there, and now the system menu wasn't there, and now I'm frustrated. Um I'm frustrated. Um I'm frustrated. Um they just didn't see that because they they just didn't see that because they they just didn't see that because they they're focused on their thing.

they're focused on their thing. they're focused on their thing. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um >> Um >> Um >> Yeah, I think I actually uh hyperfocus >> Yeah, I think I actually uh hyperfocus >> Yeah, I think I actually uh hyperfocus without looking at the big picture. without looking at the big picture. without looking at the big picture. We've talked about that before. What We've talked about that before. What We've talked about that before. What does it take to be a good architect does it take to be a good architect does it take to be a good architect or a system thinker? or a system thinker? or a system thinker? It's It's It's >> I and I would argue it's exposure. >> I and I would argue it's exposure. >> I and I would argue it's exposure. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I think you might be right. Yeah. I think you might be right. Yeah. I think you might be right. Yeah. >> I We know we talk about pre the >> I We know we talk about pre the >> I We know we talk about pre the preceptorship and the context that it preceptorship and the context that it preceptorship and the context that it has with nursing and things like that. has with nursing and things like that. has with nursing and things like that. And there's always in an ER show or, you And there's always in an ER show or, you And there's always in an ER show or, you know, know, know, uh any any any TV show like The Good uh any any any TV show like The Good uh any any any TV show like The Good Doctor, Doctor, Doctor, >> Are you going to give me your throat >> Are you going to give me your throat >> Are you going to give me your throat tracheotomy? tracheotomy? tracheotomy? >> no, no, no. >> no, no, no. >> no, no, no. >> Depends on the episode >> Depends on the episode >> Depends on the episode >> Somebody Somebody does a thing and they >> Somebody Somebody does a thing and they >> Somebody Somebody does a thing and they go, "Oh my goodness, how did you do go, "Oh my goodness, how did you do go, "Oh my goodness, how did you do that?" "Oh, I saw it once 30 years ago that?" "Oh, I saw it once 30 years ago that?" "Oh, I saw it once 30 years ago or I did it once or I did it once or I did it once in the medical field." So in the medical field." So in the medical field." So >> to the last episode of The Pit? >> to the last episode of The Pit? >> to the last episode of The Pit? >> I didn't I haven't seen them all. I'm >> I didn't I haven't seen them all. I'm >> I didn't I haven't seen them all. I'm three behind. three behind. three behind. >> All right. >> All right. >> All right. >> I'm like 3 hours behind. So >> I'm like 3 hours behind. So >> I'm like 3 hours behind. So >> Cuz that actually happens. >> Cuz that actually happens. >> Cuz that actually happens. >> Are you serious? They do it? >> Are you serious? They do it? >> Are you serious? They do it? >> Yeah. Well, not not the pin thing, but >> Yeah. Well, not not the pin thing, but >> Yeah. Well, not not the pin thing, but they they they >> Okay, but the like >> Okay, but the like >> Okay, but the like >> I saw I did this I saw it before. Well, >> I saw I did this I saw it before. Well, >> I saw I did this I saw it before. Well, I saw it once 30 years ago and here I am I saw it once 30 years ago and here I am I saw it once 30 years ago and here I am now. now. now. >> Yeah, see that. Oh, was that the part >> Yeah, see that. Oh, was that the part >> Yeah, see that. Oh, was that the part where the ladies they were like, "Oh my where the ladies they were like, "Oh my where the ladies they were like, "Oh my goodness, that was amazing." And she's goodness, that was amazing." And she's goodness, that was amazing." And she's like, "Oh yeah, have you done that like, "Oh yeah, have you done that like, "Oh yeah, have you done that before?" She's like, "No, but I saw it before?" She's like, "No, but I saw it before?" She's like, "No, but I saw it once." That one?

once." That one? once." That one? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, that was good. Yeah, like so much >> Yeah, that was good. Yeah, like so much >> Yeah, that was good. Yeah, like so much of of of computering is just having seen stuff computering is just having seen stuff computering is just having seen stuff and then filed it away. So then either and then filed it away. So then either and then filed it away. So then either people aren't seeing enough stuff, this people aren't seeing enough stuff, this people aren't seeing enough stuff, this is an exposure problem, or they're not is an exposure problem, or they're not is an exposure problem, or they're not filing it away filing it away filing it away and being able to pull it pull it back and being able to pull it pull it back and being able to pull it pull it back from from the archive. from from the archive. from from the archive. >> I think another way of you know, the >> I think another way of you know, the >> I think another way of you know, the term that we'd use is experience. term that we'd use is experience. term that we'd use is experience. Right? Right? Right? >> Yeah, I guess it just experience is just >> Yeah, I guess it just experience is just >> Yeah, I guess it just experience is just hanging around and paying attention hanging around and paying attention hanging around and paying attention for years. for years. for years. >> to accept you know, I guess you can >> to accept you know, I guess you can >> to accept you know, I guess you can accelerate that with like, you know, accelerate that with like, you know, accelerate that with like, you know, intense exposure, intense exposure, intense exposure, dedic- you know, directed dedic- you know, directed dedic- you know, directed uh methodical exposure, you can uh methodical exposure, you can uh methodical exposure, you can accelerate experience accelerate experience accelerate experience to some extent. to some extent. to some extent. >> My wife has been a computer user for >> My wife has been a computer user for >> My wife has been a computer user for her whole life. We are the same age her whole life. We are the same age her whole life. We are the same age within months. You've met my wife. She's within months. You've met my wife. She's within months. You've met my wife. She's not She is a smart person. not She is a smart person. not She is a smart person. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> She's working on her PhD. >> She's working on her PhD. >> She's working on her PhD. Couple of times a week, she loses files. Couple of times a week, she loses files. Couple of times a week, she loses files. So, either So, either So, either that's the browser, Windows Explorer, that's the browser, Windows Explorer, that's the browser, Windows Explorer, OneDrive's fault, OneDrive's fault, OneDrive's fault, or it's her fault.

or it's her fault. or it's her fault. Now, I'm I know my wife, so I'm going to Now, I'm I know my wife, so I'm going to Now, I'm I know my wife, so I'm going to propose that it's a user interface propose that it's a user interface propose that it's a user interface problem. problem. problem. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But, I never lose the file. So, that's >> But, I never lose the file. So, that's >> But, I never lose the file. So, that's because I was there while the water was because I was there while the water was because I was there while the water was getting hot. getting hot. getting hot. >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> And she got thrown into like this hot >> And she got thrown into like this hot >> And she got thrown into like this hot pot because for 10 years she was not pot because for 10 years she was not pot because for 10 years she was not doing anything in office work, and now doing anything in office work, and now doing anything in office work, and now she's come back and she's like, "I don't she's come back and she's like, "I don't she's come back and she's like, "I don't know where the file is. Where is the know where the file is. Where is the know where the file is. Where is the file?" file?" file?" Right? Right? Right? >> Well, it's also Windows and OneDrive. >> Well, it's also Windows and OneDrive. >> Well, it's also Windows and OneDrive. Windows and OneDrive are trying to Windows and OneDrive are trying to Windows and OneDrive are trying to obfuscate the existence of a file, which obfuscate the existence of a file, which obfuscate the existence of a file, which doesn't help. I don't know if you do doesn't help. I don't know if you do doesn't help. I don't know if you do the, you know, save to OneDrive, and the, you know, save to OneDrive, and the, you know, save to OneDrive, and it's just like it picks a random place, it's just like it picks a random place, it's just like it picks a random place, and it's really and it's really and it's really >> I scanned I used the OneDrive app on my >> I scanned I used the OneDrive app on my >> I scanned I used the OneDrive app on my phone, and I scanned my like hotel phone, and I scanned my like hotel phone, and I scanned my like hotel thing, and I was like, "Upload I'll look thing, and I was like, "Upload I'll look thing, and I was like, "Upload I'll look Look at me. I'm very clever. I'm Look at me. I'm very clever. I'm Look at me. I'm very clever. I'm scanning my PDF of my thing." And like, scanning my PDF of my thing." And like, scanning my PDF of my thing." And like, and then I was like, "I don't know where and then I was like, "I don't know where and then I was like, "I don't know where it went." it went." it went." >> It's in the root of the OneDrive. >> It's in the root of the OneDrive. >> It's in the root of the OneDrive. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> It didn't even pick the last place I put >> It didn't even pick the last place I put >> It didn't even pick the last place I put stuff. Like, the only thing I ever use stuff. Like, the only thing I ever use stuff. Like, the only thing I ever use it for is scanning my parking thing for it for is scanning my parking thing for it for is scanning my parking thing for the airport and my expenses. That PDF is the airport and my expenses. That PDF is the airport and my expenses. That PDF is gone, and now I'm looking for it. gone, and now I'm looking for it. gone, and now I'm looking for it. >> So, uh >> So, uh >> So, uh >> Okay, so good taste. How how accelerated >> Okay, so good taste. How how accelerated >> Okay, so good taste. How how accelerated can it get though? Because I was talking can it get though? Because I was talking can it get though? Because I was talking with uh this university recently, and with uh this university recently, and with uh this university recently, and they wanted to know how quickly you they wanted to know how quickly you they wanted to know how quickly you could make a senior engineer.

could make a senior engineer. could make a senior engineer. >> Well, this is where I think that you >> Well, this is where I think that you >> Well, this is where I think that you can't, you know, a boot camp. Let's go can't, you know, a boot camp. Let's go can't, you know, a boot camp. Let's go on one extreme. It's a boot camp. Are on one extreme. It's a boot camp. Are on one extreme. It's a boot camp. Are you going to have a senior engineer come you going to have a senior engineer come you going to have a senior engineer come out of a boot camp? out of a boot camp? out of a boot camp? >> Absolutely not. >> Absolutely not. >> Absolutely not. >> to have a super soldier come out of a >> to have a super soldier come out of a >> to have a super soldier come out of a boot camp? boot camp? boot camp? >> No. >> No. >> No. You need um you need a lots of sustained You need um you need a lots of sustained You need um you need a lots of sustained repeated exposure to the to variants of repeated exposure to the to variants of repeated exposure to the to variants of the same thing. the same thing. the same thing. >> Right. And this is the mythical >> Right. And this is the mythical >> Right. And this is the mythical man-month right there, right? You can't man-month right there, right? You can't man-month right there, right? You can't make a black belt by having, you know, make a black belt by having, you know, make a black belt by having, you know, nine people can't get a black belt in nine people can't get a black belt in nine people can't get a black belt in one year. It takes years. You have to one year. It takes years. You have to one year. It takes years. You have to just You need more sleeps. I was trying just You need more sleeps. I was trying just You need more sleeps. I was trying to explain this to my 20-year-old, uh, to explain this to my 20-year-old, uh, to explain this to my 20-year-old, uh, who is doing his, uh, anatomy and who is doing his, uh, anatomy and who is doing his, uh, anatomy and physiology final this morning. And he physiology final this morning. And he physiology final this morning. And he wanted to know how he could learn more wanted to know how he could learn more wanted to know how he could learn more quickly. And I was like, "When's your quickly. And I was like, "When's your quickly. And I was like, "When's your final?" And he's like, "Today." final?" And he's like, "Today." final?" And he's like, "Today." >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> And I was like, "Well, let's talk >> And I was like, "Well, let's talk >> And I was like, "Well, let's talk [clears throat] about spaced [clears throat] about spaced [clears throat] about spaced repetition." And I was like, "You should repetition." And I was like, "You should repetition." And I was like, "You should have thought about that six weeks ago." have thought about that six weeks ago." have thought about that six weeks ago." So now he knows about spaced repetition. So now he knows about spaced repetition. So now he knows about spaced repetition. But he wanted to know if there was some But he wanted to know if there was some But he wanted to know if there was some magic thing that he could be done in the magic thing that he could be done in the magic thing that he could be done in the next six hours. And I was like, "No, but next six hours. And I was like, "No, but next six hours. And I was like, "No, but there isn't." there isn't." there isn't." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So going to this, how do you even create So going to this, how do you even create So going to this, how do you even create a senior engineer question, which we're a senior engineer question, which we're a senior engineer question, which we're we're grappling with when we're grappling with when we're grappling with when uh, a senior engineer is more than just uh, a senior engineer is more than just uh, a senior engineer is more than just prompting AI.

prompting AI. prompting AI. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Really well, because you don't without >> Really well, because you don't without >> Really well, because you don't without being without having the taste and being without having the taste and being without having the taste and experience, you don't know what you experience, you don't know what you experience, you don't know what you should be prompting or how you should be should be prompting or how you should be should be prompting or how you should be evaluating. evaluating. evaluating. And I fundamentally believe, you know, And I fundamentally believe, you know, And I fundamentally believe, you know, there's still this I I was there's still this I I was there's still this I I was I met with somebody last week, good I met with somebody last week, good I met with somebody last week, good friend, long-time friend, and we're friend, long-time friend, and we're friend, long-time friend, and we're having this debate over AI having this debate over AI having this debate over AI coding. coding. coding. And he's like, And he's like, And he's like, "People aren't going to need to look at "People aren't going to need to look at "People aren't going to need to look at the code." the code." the code." You know, AI is going to get good You know, AI is going to get good You know, AI is going to get good enough. And I'm like, I just don't enough. And I'm like, I just don't enough. And I'm like, I just don't believe that. And we talked about this believe that. And we talked about this believe that. And we talked about this in a previous episode where in a previous episode where in a previous episode where I micromanage because I'm sculpting. I micromanage because I'm sculpting. I micromanage because I'm sculpting. And there's no way that I could fully And there's no way that I could fully And there's no way that I could fully specify something specify something specify something and and and have any expectation that AI is going to have any expectation that AI is going to have any expectation that AI is going to come out with come out with come out with everything that I everything that I everything that I was thinking implicitly or would want. was thinking implicitly or would want. was thinking implicitly or would want. >> If you fully specified it, you would >> If you fully specified it, you would >> If you fully specified it, you would have used keywords in a programming have used keywords in a programming have used keywords in a programming language, and then you would have to language, and then you would have to language, and then you would have to throw the thing yourself. throw the thing yourself. throw the thing yourself. >> That's exactly right. Yeah. >> That's exactly right. Yeah. >> That's exactly right. Yeah. So, um, I I push it here and there, and So, um, I I push it here and there, and So, um, I I push it here and there, and you know, guide it, and then I know you know, guide it, and then I know you know, guide it, and then I know where I want to go, but I don't know where I want to go, but I don't know where I want to go, but I don't know exactly how I'm going to get there. The exactly how I'm going to get there. The exactly how I'm going to get there. The Zoom at video trimmer was a great Zoom at video trimmer was a great Zoom at video trimmer was a great example. I didn't know exactly how I example. I didn't know exactly how I example. I didn't know exactly how I wanted the thing to look and behave wanted the thing to look and behave wanted the thing to look and behave until I until I until I you know, made one, had had the AI make you know, made one, had had the AI make you know, made one, had had the AI make one for me, and then go, "Nope, I don't one for me, and then go, "Nope, I don't one for me, and then go, "Nope, I don't like that. I don't like the buttons like that. I don't like the buttons like that. I don't like the buttons there. I don't like the buttons that there. I don't like the buttons that there. I don't like the buttons that size. I want this here. By the way, I size. I want this here. By the way, I size. I want this here. By the way, I want it so that when you drag this, it want it so that when you drag this, it want it so that when you drag this, it releases at the certain point." And releases at the certain point." And releases at the certain point." And all of that was me playing with it.

all of that was me playing with it. all of that was me playing with it. And And And you know, we've we've talked to you know, we've we've talked to you know, we've we've talked to somebody, you know, quite famous in the somebody, you know, quite famous in the somebody, you know, quite famous in the industry, a last industry, a last industry, a last that I just I get my boost just by fully that I just I get my boost just by fully that I just I get my boost just by fully specifying everything. specifying everything. specifying everything. And you know, we you talked about the And you know, we you talked about the And you know, we you talked about the fact that if you there's no way to fully fact that if you there's no way to fully fact that if you there's no way to fully specify everything unless you're talking specify everything unless you're talking specify everything unless you're talking about make a compiler. about make a compiler. about make a compiler. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And that AI's going to fill in the >> And that AI's going to fill in the >> And that AI's going to fill in the blanks with blanks with blanks with who knows what. who knows what. who knows what. >> Yes, and >> Yes, and >> Yes, and uh uh uh back to my thing about how I I do all my back to my thing about how I I do all my back to my thing about how I I do all my dictation. dictation. dictation. I think I'm getting a boost by doing I think I'm getting a boost by doing I think I'm getting a boost by doing dictation because I have more words, dictation because I have more words, dictation because I have more words, more context, more input, more more context, more input, more more context, more input, more specificity. And I think early in career specificity. And I think early in career specificity. And I think early in career people are getting less good people are getting less good people are getting less good experiences, experiences, experiences, lesser experiences, because they're lesser experiences, because they're lesser experiences, because they're leaving so many things up to the the leaving so many things up to the the leaving so many things up to the the dice roll. dice roll. dice roll. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Specificity matters. So then, why >> Yeah. Specificity matters. So then, why >> Yeah. Specificity matters. So then, why am I going to school? Why do I go to am I going to school? Why do I go to am I going to school? Why do I go to college then for 4 years? Is that just college then for 4 years? Is that just college then for 4 years? Is that just 4 years to bake 4 years to bake 4 years to bake and get exposure and learn how to think? and get exposure and learn how to think? and get exposure and learn how to think? >> I think it is well, the breadth of >> I think it is well, the breadth of >> I think it is well, the breadth of knowledge that you cover there, which is knowledge that you cover there, which is knowledge that you cover there, which is grounding. Like if let's take a software grounding. Like if let's take a software grounding. Like if let's take a software engineering engineering engineering >> Mhm.

>> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> as a profession, and why does computer >> as a profession, and why does computer >> as a profession, and why does computer science degree matter? science degree matter? science degree matter? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I strongly believe computer science >> I strongly believe computer science >> I strongly believe computer science degrees matter. Not to say that people degrees matter. Not to say that people degrees matter. Not to say that people can't self-teach and be good software can't self-teach and be good software can't self-teach and be good software engineers, but engineers, but engineers, but And and it also depends cuz this person And and it also depends cuz this person And and it also depends cuz this person I was talking about last week, I was talking about last week, I was talking about last week, we've I finally we've I finally we've I finally coaxed and prodded him, and he doesn't coaxed and prodded him, and he doesn't coaxed and prodded him, and he doesn't have that much experience doing the AI have that much experience doing the AI have that much experience doing the AI assisted coding. He has some, but he's assisted coding. He has some, but he's assisted coding. He has some, but he's he the stuff he's built is like, you he the stuff he's built is like, you he the stuff he's built is like, you know, web plus database. know, web plus database. know, web plus database. >> Ah. >> Ah. >> Ah. >> And I'm like, "Okay, so cuz he's like, >> And I'm like, "Okay, so cuz he's like, >> And I'm like, "Okay, so cuz he's like, what you're going to want are people what you're going to want are people what you're going to want are people with philosophy degrees. They're with philosophy degrees. They're with philosophy degrees. They're general, they're critical thinkers. They general, they're critical thinkers. They general, they're critical thinkers. They don't need software engineers or people don't need software engineers or people don't need software engineers or people that understand computer science to be that understand computer science to be that understand computer science to be software programmers." And I'm like, software programmers." And I'm like, software programmers." And I'm like, "Well, that might be true for web "Well, that might be true for web "Well, that might be true for web interface on top of a database." interface on top of a database." interface on top of a database." >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Because that's not a That's a very >> Because that's not a That's a very >> Because that's not a That's a very simple simple simple app, you know, right down the main line. app, you know, right down the main line. app, you know, right down the main line. But, anything more complicated than that But, anything more complicated than that But, anything more complicated than that and then you start to run into and then you start to run into and then you start to run into lots of complications. lots of complications. lots of complications. This ref- reference checker program I This ref- reference checker program I This ref- reference checker program I told you about, there's 50 million I told you about, there's 50 million I told you about, there's 50 million I mean, it's not 50 million, I'm mean, it's not 50 million, I'm mean, it's not 50 million, I'm exaggerating. There's exaggerating. There's exaggerating. There's There's a dozen little questions There's a dozen little questions There's a dozen little questions >> Yep.

>> Yep. >> Yep. >> about how it should behave. >> about how it should behave. >> about how it should behave. Dozens. Dozens. Dozens. When there's an error, how does it show When there's an error, how does it show When there's an error, how does it show you the error? When should it show you you the error? When should it show you you the error? When should it show you where the error under this condition? Um where the error under this condition? Um where the error under this condition? Um Should it overwrite it with a warning? Should it overwrite it with a warning? Should it overwrite it with a warning? Should it, you know, like I had to work Should it, you know, like I had to work Should it, you know, like I had to work with AI through that. And I didn't know with AI through that. And I didn't know with AI through that. And I didn't know exactly what I wanted until I'm like, exactly what I wanted until I'm like, exactly what I wanted until I'm like, "No, that's not that presentation of "No, that's not that presentation of "No, that's not that presentation of information isn't telling me what I want information isn't telling me what I want information isn't telling me what I want to know." to know." to know." >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Change it. >> Change it. >> Change it. >> That part there >> That part there >> That part there there's a million different combinatory there's a million different combinatory there's a million different combinatory All the combinatorics, this if people All the combinatorics, this if people All the combinatorics, this if people just don't get separate from AI just don't get separate from AI just don't get separate from AI augmented programming, if you leave it augmented programming, if you leave it augmented programming, if you leave it unsaid, unsaid, unsaid, it is unsaid. it is unsaid. it is unsaid. And it is going to be filled by whatever And it is going to be filled by whatever And it is going to be filled by whatever the uh default part of the switch the uh default part of the switch the uh default part of the switch statement is doing. You know what I statement is doing. You know what I statement is doing. You know what I mean? Like whatever it is is going to mean? Like whatever it is is going to mean? Like whatever it is is going to just happen. I don't know, I didn't just happen. I don't know, I didn't just happen. I don't know, I didn't specify. Sorry. And that is amplified by specify. Sorry. And that is amplified by specify. Sorry. And that is amplified by AI being non-specific, AI being non-specific, AI being non-specific, being unclear in the ambiguity loop. being unclear in the ambiguity loop. being unclear in the ambiguity loop. >> Yeah. And there's >> Yeah. And there's >> Yeah. And there's >> It's asking for >> It's asking for >> It's asking for unexpected things.

unexpected things. unexpected things. >> and you know, like I go back to when I >> and you know, like I go back to when I >> and you know, like I go back to when I was at Carnegie Mellon in the '80s and was at Carnegie Mellon in the '80s and was at Carnegie Mellon in the '80s and they formed the Software Engineering they formed the Software Engineering they formed the Software Engineering Institute and people were like, "We're Institute and people were like, "We're Institute and people were like, "We're going to make going to make going to make um um um a science out of programming." a science out of programming." a science out of programming." And really codify what it is. And And And really codify what it is. And And And really codify what it is. And And that has failed. It's never succeeded at that has failed. It's never succeeded at that has failed. It's never succeeded at saying what is exactly software saying what is exactly software saying what is exactly software engineering and coding. engineering and coding. engineering and coding. Because it the state space for it is Because it the state space for it is Because it the state space for it is just just just unbelievably large. It's not like, you unbelievably large. It's not like, you unbelievably large. It's not like, you know, let me make a beam like civil know, let me make a beam like civil know, let me make a beam like civil engineering, let me make a beam for a engineering, let me make a beam for a engineering, let me make a beam for a building. building. building. Software is way more complicated, and Software is way more complicated, and Software is way more complicated, and and we start with levels of abstraction and we start with levels of abstraction and we start with levels of abstraction like like like uh upload this file, OCR it, uh upload this file, OCR it, uh upload this file, OCR it, present it, index it, present it, index it, present it, index it, and then offer give me the ability to and then offer give me the ability to and then offer give me the ability to save it to disk. That sounds really save it to disk. That sounds really save it to disk. That sounds really simple. simple. simple. But underneath that, But underneath that, But underneath that, there are dozens and dozens of corner there are dozens and dozens of corner there are dozens and dozens of corner cases cases cases and architecture decisions >> Which makes me wonder though >> Which makes me wonder though why everything is working, and I think why everything is working, and I think why everything is working, and I think that's because for simple websites like that's because for simple websites like that's because for simple websites like your friend is making, your friend is making, your friend is making, the statistical mean mostly works. Yeah.

the statistical mean mostly works. Yeah. the statistical mean mostly works. Yeah. And for edge case stuff like your uh And for edge case stuff like your uh And for edge case stuff like your uh your trimmer or your uh panorama thing your trimmer or your uh panorama thing your trimmer or your uh panorama thing where there's like not a lot of prior where there's like not a lot of prior where there's like not a lot of prior art, art, art, you're getting uh you're getting uh you're getting uh am almost an amplification on the edge am almost an amplification on the edge am almost an amplification on the edge cases of just like it either works if cases of just like it either works if cases of just like it either works if it's very narrow or it's just wacky and it's very narrow or it's just wacky and it's very narrow or it's just wacky and doing weird stuff on the outer on the doing weird stuff on the outer on the doing weird stuff on the outer on the other edges. Cuz when you've some of the other edges. Cuz when you've some of the other edges. Cuz when you've some of the stuff you've bumped into is bigger than stuff you've bumped into is bigger than stuff you've bumped into is bigger than edge cases. edge cases. edge cases. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It's just it doesn't have any idea what >> It's just it doesn't have any idea what >> It's just it doesn't have any idea what you're trying to do, and you got to be you're trying to do, and you got to be you're trying to do, and you got to be laser specific, which means then now laser specific, which means then now laser specific, which means then now waiting for it to compile waiting for it to compile waiting for it to compile is you waiting for the prompt to do it. is you waiting for the prompt to do it. is you waiting for the prompt to do it. That's the new waiting. Half my time is That's the new waiting. Half my time is That's the new waiting. Half my time is just waiting for the thing to turn, just waiting for the thing to turn, just waiting for the thing to turn, which is starting to become frustrating. which is starting to become frustrating. which is starting to become frustrating. >> It it is really. It's starting to. It's >> It it is really. It's starting to. It's >> It it is really. It's starting to. It's been frustrating. But have you seen this been frustrating. But have you seen this been frustrating. But have you seen this one? I've I've seen this one just in the one? I've I've seen this one just in the one? I've I've seen this one just in the last few days uh last few days uh last few days uh where I tell it, "Hey, where I tell it, "Hey, where I tell it, "Hey, this is not behaving right. Fix it." And this is not behaving right. Fix it." And this is not behaving right. Fix it." And then I'm watching the chain of thought then I'm watching the chain of thought then I'm watching the chain of thought as it's working through it and it's as it's working through it and it's as it's working through it and it's like, well, this doesn't fix right. But like, well, this doesn't fix right. But like, well, this doesn't fix right. But you know what? While I'm looking at you know what? While I'm looking at you know what? While I'm looking at this, I also see this other thing that this, I also see this other thing that this, I also see this other thing that should be changed. And I'm like, Stop.

should be changed. And I'm like, Stop. should be changed. And I'm like, Stop. It's like It's like It's like >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> It's like I didn't tell you to do >> It's like I didn't tell you to do >> It's like I didn't tell you to do anything else. anything else. anything else. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. >> I keep coming back to my kids and how >> I keep coming back to my kids and how old they are and we just came back from old they are and we just came back from old they are and we just came back from uh uh uh from Howard with the 18-year-old who is from Howard with the 18-year-old who is from Howard with the 18-year-old who is uh doing a uh doing a uh doing a uh admitted students day and figuring uh admitted students day and figuring uh admitted students day and figuring out uh you know, how he's going to go out uh you know, how he's going to go out uh you know, how he's going to go and I'm like, what's this kid going to and I'm like, what's this kid going to and I'm like, what's this kid going to learn in the next 4 years and is this learn in the next 4 years and is this learn in the next 4 years and is this school ready? school ready? school ready? And like, And like, And like, you know how I mentioned to you before you know how I mentioned to you before you know how I mentioned to you before that we've got this kind of wave of that we've got this kind of wave of that we've got this kind of wave of broken COVID kids kind of going through broken COVID kids kind of going through broken COVID kids kind of going through the system? the system? the system? I'm wondering what schools are going to I'm wondering what schools are going to I'm wondering what schools are going to be ready to explain be ready to explain be ready to explain thinking thinking thinking in the world of AI uh versus schools in the world of AI uh versus schools in the world of AI uh versus schools that are just going to not even talk that are just going to not even talk that are just going to not even talk about it for 4 years and they're going about it for 4 years and they're going about it for 4 years and they're going to pop people out that are going to have to pop people out that are going to have to pop people out that are going to have to sit down in 2030 to sit down in 2030 to sit down in 2030 and learn how to think like this. and learn how to think like this. and learn how to think like this. And if they're going to pull us out of And if they're going to pull us out of And if they're going to pull us out of retirement to explain it to them. retirement to explain it to them. retirement to explain it to them. >> Yeah. Well, I think >> Yeah. Well, I think >> Yeah. Well, I think there's going to be a lot of schools there's going to be a lot of schools there's going to be a lot of schools turning out ChatGPT degrees.

turning out ChatGPT degrees. turning out ChatGPT degrees. >> Yeah. I've talked I said this before. >> Yeah. I've talked I said this before. >> Yeah. I've talked I said this before. I'll say it again. Someone right now is I'll say it again. Someone right now is I'll say it again. Someone right now is vibing a BA in English. Yeah. vibing a BA in English. Yeah. vibing a BA in English. Yeah. If not a full BS in computer science and If not a full BS in computer science and If not a full BS in computer science and that is going to bite them in the ass that is going to bite them in the ass that is going to bite them in the ass because we said this to our kids early because we said this to our kids early because we said this to our kids early on, you cheat, you're only cheating on, you cheat, you're only cheating on, you cheat, you're only cheating yourself. yourself. yourself. That Imagine that for college. That Imagine that for college. That Imagine that for college. Oh my god. So bad. Oh my god. So bad. Oh my god. So bad. I hope that we can make I mean, people I hope that we can make I mean, people I hope that we can make I mean, people have been reading the paper. Like I've have been reading the paper. Like I've have been reading the paper. Like I've been having great meetings. I'm meeting been having great meetings. I'm meeting been having great meetings. I'm meeting another I'm going to meet with some another I'm going to meet with some another I'm going to meet with some other folks there later this week. I've other folks there later this week. I've other folks there later this week. I've talked to like five different talked to like five different talked to like five different universities. universities. universities. People get it, but no one's moving fast People get it, but no one's moving fast People get it, but no one's moving fast enough to uh to catch this. enough to uh to catch this. enough to uh to catch this. >> Yeah. Well, we're trying to get people >> Yeah. Well, we're trying to get people >> Yeah. Well, we're trying to get people to move faster, but to move faster, but to move faster, but >> Um, yeah. >> Um, yeah. >> Um, yeah. Yeah. Well, we'll have a meeting after Yeah. Well, we'll have a meeting after Yeah. Well, we'll have a meeting after this podcast and I'll tell you all about this podcast and I'll tell you all about this podcast and I'll tell you all about it cuz it was a really good meeting. it cuz it was a really good meeting. it cuz it was a really good meeting. Um okay. So, let me ask you this in Um okay. So, let me ask you this in Um okay. So, let me ask you this in closing then for this episode. closing then for this episode. closing then for this episode. Is there value Is there value Is there value in a degree? Because there's a lot of in a degree? Because there's a lot of in a degree? Because there's a lot of really interesting paperwork that's just really interesting paperwork that's just really interesting paperwork that's just saying it's so expensive in the states. saying it's so expensive in the states. saying it's so expensive in the states. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Why bother? >> Why bother? >> Why bother? >> I absolutely think there's value in a >> I absolutely think there's value in a >> I absolutely think there's value in a degree and I'll tell you why. First of degree and I'll tell you why. First of degree and I'll tell you why. First of all, what does a degree represent? It's all, what does a degree represent? It's all, what does a degree represent? It's structured structured structured um um um training. training. training. >> Yeah. It represents a gauntlet that you >> Yeah. It represents a gauntlet that you >> Yeah. It represents a gauntlet that you ran through. ran through. ran through. >> And um where there's a certain certain >> And um where there's a certain certain >> And um where there's a certain certain expectations around the base level of in expectations around the base level of in expectations around the base level of in knowledge that you got out of it. And knowledge that you got out of it. And knowledge that you got out of it. And you can, you know, you might specialize you can, you know, you might specialize you can, you know, you might specialize in something and that tells whoever is in something and that tells whoever is in something and that tells whoever is looking at your degree looking at your degree looking at your degree that you did some extra training in some that you did some extra training in some that you did some extra training in some area and in knowledge acquisition. area and in knowledge acquisition. area and in knowledge acquisition. The um The um The um and and so it's shorthand for evaluating and and so it's shorthand for evaluating and and so it's shorthand for evaluating somebody. It's a shortcut. >> Yeah, that's that's fair. I mean, they >> Yeah, that's that's fair. I mean, they look at your passport and they go, "Oh, look at your passport and they go, "Oh, look at your passport and they go, "Oh, that's that's that guy." that's that's that guy." that's that's that guy." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> They look at your degree and they go >> They look at your degree and they go >> They look at your degree and they go like like like >> Well, you ran that gauntlet. Uh I >> Well, you ran that gauntlet. Uh I >> Well, you ran that gauntlet. Uh I I know that's a rigorous gauntlet. I I know that's a rigorous gauntlet. I I know that's a rigorous gauntlet. I know that they've got high standards and know that they've got high standards and know that they've got high standards and and and and comprehensive training with instructors comprehensive training with instructors comprehensive training with instructors that know what they're doing. that know what they're doing. that know what they're doing. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That's why the top schools have that >> That's why the top schools have that >> That's why the top schools have that reputation.

reputation. reputation. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. But that's the thing though, >> Yeah. But that's the thing though, >> Yeah. But that's the thing though, right? Like if you get a top 20 school, right? Like if you get a top 20 school, right? Like if you get a top 20 school, great. But then there's the great. But then there's the great. But then there's the bottom 2200 schools that I went to. bottom 2200 schools that I went to. bottom 2200 schools that I went to. Uh but I took 11 years to finish my Uh but I took 11 years to finish my Uh but I took 11 years to finish my four-year degree and I didn't even get four-year degree and I didn't even get four-year degree and I didn't even get out of school until 2003. out of school until 2003. out of school until 2003. But I did it for myself. It took 11 But I did it for myself. It took 11 But I did it for myself. It took 11 years, but I wanted it done because it years, but I wanted it done because it years, but I wanted it done because it was like, "I don't want to was like, "I don't want to was like, "I don't want to quit now. I'm so close." I kept telling quit now. I'm so close." I kept telling quit now. I'm so close." I kept telling myself I was so close for like myself I was so close for like myself I was so close for like 11 years. Why did you get a PhD? You 11 years. Why did you get a PhD? You 11 years. Why did you get a PhD? You could have just finished a Well, two could have just finished a Well, two could have just finished a Well, two things. things. things. >> My my father brainwashed me. He was an >> My my father brainwashed me. He was an >> My my father brainwashed me. He was an MD and his he was like, "Get as much MD and his he was like, "Get as much MD and his he was like, "Get as much Pick something you like. Doesn't have to Pick something you like. Doesn't have to Pick something you like. Doesn't have to be medicine and get as much education on be medicine and get as much education on be medicine and get as much education on it as you can. it as you can. it as you can. And don't go into workforce until you've And don't go into workforce until you've And don't go into workforce until you've done that because otherwise you're done that because otherwise you're done that because otherwise you're likely to never come back. likely to never come back. likely to never come back. >> That's pretty good advice actually. I >> That's pretty good advice actually. I >> That's pretty good advice actually. I mean if you got that if you like if you mean if you got that if you like if you mean if you got that if you like if you get the privilege to like go to a get the privilege to like go to a get the privilege to like go to a master's and then go to a PhD and they master's and then go to a PhD and they master's and then go to a PhD and they they they're going to keep helping you they they're going to keep helping you they they're going to keep helping you do it then yeah cuz you're never going do it then yeah cuz you're never going do it then yeah cuz you're never going to come back, right? Cuz like I'm going to come back, right? Cuz like I'm going to come back, right? Cuz like I'm going to retire and then go back to school and to retire and then go back to school and to retire and then go back to school and learn Spanish.

learn Spanish. learn Spanish. Yeah, too late. I could have used that Yeah, too late. I could have used that Yeah, too late. I could have used that 20 years ago. 20 years ago. 20 years ago. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So that that that and and also I just So that that that and and also I just So that that that and and also I just wanted to know learn as much as I could wanted to know learn as much as I could wanted to know learn as much as I could about computers. Um about computers. Um about computers. Um So that was uh So that was uh So that was uh >> Well, I mean hopefully it'll work out >> Well, I mean hopefully it'll work out >> Well, I mean hopefully it'll work out for you one day. for you one day. for you one day. >> [laughter] >> Uh if you made it this far into this >> Uh if you made it this far into this episode, I'm interested in if you think episode, I'm interested in if you think episode, I'm interested in if you think chat that uh there's value in a degree chat that uh there's value in a degree chat that uh there's value in a degree because I know that a lot of you are because I know that a lot of you are because I know that a lot of you are watching it who maybe work at Microsoft watching it who maybe work at Microsoft watching it who maybe work at Microsoft with us. with us. with us. Uh you may have gone to a top school Uh you may have gone to a top school Uh you may have gone to a top school like Mark. You may have gone to a like Mark. You may have gone to a like Mark. You may have gone to a community college like me or you may community college like me or you may community college like me or you may have just done it on your own have just done it on your own have just done it on your own with uh you know a a notepad. Uh one of with uh you know a a notepad. Uh one of with uh you know a a notepad. Uh one of the best programmers I've ever met has a the best programmers I've ever met has a the best programmers I've ever met has a a BS in geology. a BS in geology. a BS in geology. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Which means he's got the structured >> Which means he's got the structured >> Which means he's got the structured thinking. He just didn't do computer thinking. He just didn't do computer thinking. He just didn't do computer science. science. science. >> I just had a uh dinner with Jeffrey >> I just had a uh dinner with Jeffrey >> I just had a uh dinner with Jeffrey Snover who's retired but now working as Snover who's retired but now working as Snover who's retired but now working as a Harvard fellow. Uh but he never got a a Harvard fellow. Uh but he never got a a Harvard fellow. Uh but he never got a degree and degree and degree and >> How is Jeffrey? >> How is Jeffrey? >> How is Jeffrey? >> He's doing great. Sassy as ever. Yeah, >> He's doing great. Sassy as ever. Yeah, >> He's doing great. Sassy as ever. Yeah, [clears throat] of course. [clears throat] of course. [clears throat] of course. >> Yeah, lovely. That's good. I have to >> Yeah, lovely. That's good. I have to >> Yeah, lovely. That's good. I have to text him and say hi. He's such a fun text him and say hi. He's such a fun text him and say hi. He's such a fun guy. guy. guy. Yeah, he's a spicy one. I love that guy.

Yeah, he's a spicy one. I love that guy. Yeah, he's a spicy one. I love that guy. Okay. Well, uh that's the show because Okay. Well, uh that's the show because Okay. Well, uh that's the show because we want to be responsible and not just we want to be responsible and not just we want to be responsible and not just yap for for for an hour and a half but yap for for for an hour and a half but yap for for for an hour and a half but if you made it this far if you made it this far if you made it this far you are in the top 1% of humans on the you are in the top 1% of humans on the you are in the top 1% of humans on the planet. planet. planet. You are better than everyone else. So You are better than everyone else. So You are better than everyone else. So comment in the chat that you are better comment in the chat that you are better comment in the chat that you are better than everyone else. And again, it cannot than everyone else. And again, it cannot than everyone else. And again, it cannot be overstated. Share the show. Tell be overstated. Share the show. Tell be overstated. Share the show. Tell people about the show because so much of people about the show because so much of people about the show because so much of our fragile egos is dependent on our fragile egos is dependent on our fragile egos is dependent on engagement and views and uh we'd love it engagement and views and uh we'd love it engagement and views and uh we'd love it if one of these went viral someday. if one of these went viral someday. if one of these went viral someday. >> We Yeah, it's speaking into the void, >> We Yeah, it's speaking into the void, >> We Yeah, it's speaking into the void, you know, is you know, is you know, is >> That's I guess I'm the void in that >> That's I guess I'm the void in that >> That's I guess I'm the void in that context with me. context with me. context with me. >> Yeah, you are. >> Yeah, you are. >> Yeah, you are. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> No, I think people couple four or five >> No, I think people couple four or five >> No, I think people couple four or five people enjoy the show deeply. people enjoy the show deeply. people enjoy the show deeply. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I'm looking for the sixth. I'm looking for the sixth. I'm looking for the sixth. Well, it's not SmartLess. Well, it's not SmartLess. Well, it's not SmartLess. >> It's not It's not Conan O'Brien Needs a >> It's not It's not Conan O'Brien Needs a >> It's not It's not Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend. Come on. We could have a guest Friend. Come on. We could have a guest Friend. Come on. We could have a guest on though. on though. on though. >> Could you bring someone famous on? >> Could you bring someone famous on? >> Could you bring someone famous on? >> Could we get Conan? >> Could we get Conan? >> Could we get Conan? >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> No, like I don't know. >> No, like I don't know. >> No, like I don't know. >> Bill Gates or somebody. >> Bill Gates or somebody. >> Bill Gates or somebody. >> Like call a neighbor. Talk to Get Linus >> Like call a neighbor. Talk to Get Linus >> Like call a neighbor. Talk to Get Linus on the on the horn.

on the on the horn. on the on the horn. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Or Linus. >> Or Linus. >> Or Linus. >> Actually, >> Actually, >> Actually, um um um if you think we should have guests on if you think we should have guests on if you think we should have guests on the show, the show, the show, >> We should try it. >> We should try it. >> We should try it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Should try it. >> Should try it. >> Should try it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Producer Rob can open another Windows >> Producer Rob can open another Windows >> Producer Rob can open another Windows window. window. window. We could change the whole UI just into We could change the whole UI just into We could change the whole UI just into like Gnome or Linux just for Linus to like Gnome or Linux just for Linus to like Gnome or Linux just for Linus to come. That way he wouldn't be offended come. That way he wouldn't be offended come. That way he wouldn't be offended by putting him in a Windows window. by putting him in a Windows window. by putting him in a Windows window. >> Someone out there, you know people. >> Someone out there, you know people. >> Someone out there, you know people. So do you. So do you. So do you. >> You know more I don't know. I could call >> You know more I don't know. I could call >> You know more I don't know. I could call Riyazi. Riyazi. Riyazi. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> He could come on the show. Okay, we'll >> He could come on the show. Okay, we'll >> He could come on the show. Okay, we'll think about that. Maybe Maybe once Maybe think about that. Maybe Maybe once Maybe think about that. Maybe Maybe once Maybe we could do two things. Here's an idea. we could do two things. Here's an idea. we could do two things. Here's an idea. If you made it this [music] far, chat, If you made it this [music] far, chat, If you made it this [music] far, chat, you're even in the top 0.1% of people. you're even in the top 0.1% of people. you're even in the top 0.1% of people. What do you think about guests What do you think about guests What do you think about guests occasionally once a month and a live occasionally once a month and a live occasionally once a month and a live stream with Q&A? stream with Q&A? stream with Q&A? Scott and Mark [music] learn to ask me Scott and Mark [music] learn to ask me Scott and Mark [music] learn to ask me anything. anything. anything. Hm? Hm? This is part of we We had a Hm? Hm? This is part of we We had a Hm? Hm? This is part of we We had a brainstorming session a couple [music] brainstorming session a couple [music] brainstorming session a couple [music] of days ago with Producer Rob Mark to of days ago with Producer Rob Mark to of days ago with Producer Rob Mark to talk about how to get uh talk about how to get uh talk about how to get uh dozens more people watching the show. dozens more people watching the show. dozens more people watching the show. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And those were two of the big >> And those were two of the big >> And those were two of the big suggestions. suggestions. suggestions. >> All right, let's give it a try. >> All right, let's give it a try. >> All right, let's give it a try. >> Let's do it.