Making "Tales of Kenzera: Zau" with Abubakar Salim

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that Mainline games it is consistently that Mainline games it is consistently top one or two really really and it all top one or two really really and it all top one or two really really and it all comes down to your your voice comes down to your your voice comes down to your your voice acting my I'm not just gushing my family acting my I'm not just gushing my family acting my I'm not just gushing my family also very much enjoyed you in Raised by also very much enjoyed you in Raised by also very much enjoyed you in Raised by Wolves oh amazing it took me a while to Wolves oh amazing it took me a while to Wolves oh amazing it took me a while to put that together I mean that is I think put that together I mean that is I think put that together I mean that is I think that is a compliment as an actor right that is a compliment as an actor right that is a compliment as an actor right like wait a second that's the same guy like wait a second that's the same guy like wait a second that's the same guy that's the that's the that's the same transformed I mean that was a same transformed I mean that was a same transformed I mean that was a physicality to that one that I didn't physicality to that one that I didn't physicality to that one that I didn't realize it was all the same guy hey man realize it was all the same guy hey man realize it was all the same guy hey man if I'm if I'm not transforming I'm not if I'm if I'm not transforming I'm not if I'm if I'm not transforming I'm not doing my job doing my job doing my job I am a big Metroid Vania person like I am a big Metroid Vania person like I am a big Metroid Vania person like since jump the last I would say maybe since jump the last I would say maybe since jump the last I would say maybe three or four years maybe five years three or four years maybe five years three or four years maybe five years it's been a a Renaissance of sorts in it's been a a Renaissance of sorts in it's been a a Renaissance of sorts in the Metroid Vania Spain with Metroid the Metroid Vania Spain with Metroid the Metroid Vania Spain with Metroid dread we just saw Prince of Persia come dread we just saw Prince of Persia come dread we just saw Prince of Persia come out with the Metroid Vania like why make out with the Metroid Vania like why make out with the Metroid Vania like why make a Metroid Vania now is it a is it a a Metroid Vania now is it a is it a a Metroid Vania now is it a is it a crowded place so I think the way that i' crowded place so I think the way that i' crowded place so I think the way that i' i' sort of approached it is like again i' sort of approached it is like again i' sort of approached it is like again you know I was I'm very much led by you know I was I'm very much led by you know I was I'm very much led by story I'm very much led by you know story I'm very much led by you know story I'm very much led by you know trying to use the art form to kind of trying to use the art form to kind of trying to use the art form to kind of deliver a message and so for me really deliver a message and so for me really deliver a message and so for me really choosing the the genre of the Metro choosing the the genre of the Metro choosing the the genre of the Metro Vania genre was because I felt like it Vania genre was because I felt like it Vania genre was because I felt like it was the best way of kind of showing was the best way of kind of showing was the best way of kind of showing grief because again you know you're grief because again you know you're grief because again you know you're throwing a character in the middle of throwing a character in the middle of throwing a character in the middle of nowhere they have no idea like it's nowhere they have no idea like it's nowhere they have no idea like it's alien world it feels hostile dangerous alien world it feels hostile dangerous alien world it feels hostile dangerous they can't prepare for it but the longer they can't prepare for it but the longer they can't prepare for it but the longer you spend time in it the more you spend time in it the more you spend time in it the more comfortable you get right and I think comfortable you get right and I think comfortable you get right and I think that is why I chose the genre you know that is why I chose the genre you know that is why I chose the genre you know it it kind of captures and encapsulates

it it kind of captures and encapsulates it it kind of captures and encapsulates that feeling of grief in the best way that feeling of grief in the best way that feeling of grief in the best way possible really you know the thing is possible really you know the thing is possible really you know the thing is it's like yeah I think we're very it's like yeah I think we're very it's like yeah I think we're very fortunate to be in in a time right now fortunate to be in in a time right now fortunate to be in in a time right now where like you know the Metroid Venia where like you know the Metroid Venia where like you know the Metroid Venia genre is almost you know it's coming to genre is almost you know it's coming to genre is almost you know it's coming to people who've never played Metroid vas people who've never played Metroid vas people who've never played Metroid vas before as well and I think that's what's before as well and I think that's what's before as well and I think that's what's really cool about it right because it really cool about it right because it really cool about it right because it gives audiences and players a new space gives audiences and players a new space gives audiences and players a new space to jump into it feels like a you know to jump into it feels like a you know to jump into it feels like a you know like a call back to the old times but at like a call back to the old times but at like a call back to the old times but at the same time it feels fresh and new the same time it feels fresh and new the same time it feels fresh and new which is really cool and like as you which is really cool and like as you which is really cool and like as you said like you got games like for example said like you got games like for example said like you got games like for example you know Prince of Persia which is you you know Prince of Persia which is you you know Prince of Persia which is you know very much like this is like highend know very much like this is like highend know very much like this is like highend kind of you know what companies can do kind of you know what companies can do kind of you know what companies can do in that sort of space and then you've in that sort of space and then you've in that sort of space and then you've got games like Hollow night or even like got games like Hollow night or even like got games like Hollow night or even like the messenger right or even alboy to a the messenger right or even alboy to a the messenger right or even alboy to a degree where it's a lot more smaller but degree where it's a lot more smaller but degree where it's a lot more smaller but it still kind of pays homage to the it still kind of pays homage to the it still kind of pays homage to the genre in the best way yeah it feels like genre in the best way yeah it feels like genre in the best way yeah it feels like we're in the Golden Age of Metroid vanas we're in the Golden Age of Metroid vanas we're in the Golden Age of Metroid vanas and I that as someone who played Metroid and I that as someone who played Metroid and I that as someone who played Metroid like when it came out oh amazing like when it came out oh amazing like when it came out oh amazing amazing yeah now the grief that we're amazing yeah now the grief that we're amazing yeah now the grief that we're talking about the grief that you alluded talking about the grief that you alluded talking about the grief that you alluded to was the untimely death of your father to was the untimely death of your father to was the untimely death of your father Yes and when something like that happens Yes and when something like that happens Yes and when something like that happens your life is bisected into the Before your life is bisected into the Before your life is bisected into the Before Time and in the after time it really is Time and in the after time it really is Time and in the after time it really is yeah my wife is an an deell from yeah my wife is an an deell from yeah my wife is an an deell from Zimbabwe we've been married for 25 years Zimbabwe we've been married for 25 years Zimbabwe we've been married for 25 years oh wow this is a total coincidence but I oh wow this is a total coincidence but I oh wow this is a total coincidence but I ended up getting Tales of Kera sa within ended up getting Tales of Kera sa within ended up getting Tales of Kera sa within a day or two of the 20th anniversary of a day or two of the 20th anniversary of a day or two of the 20th anniversary of her father's death so with me playing her father's death so with me playing her father's death so with me playing the game and her watching the game she

the game and her watching the game she the game and her watching the game she was just kind of you know doing her was just kind of you know doing her was just kind of you know doing her phone thing and I'm playing the game and phone thing and I'm playing the game and phone thing and I'm playing the game and she starts hearing familiar words hang she starts hearing familiar words hang she starts hearing familiar words hang on a second who who is that and then we on a second who who is that and then we on a second who who is that and then we started talking about the game and it started talking about the game and it started talking about the game and it was just a very kind of strange was just a very kind of strange was just a very kind of strange constellation of everything intersecting constellation of everything intersecting constellation of everything intersecting at the same time and I was like yeah he at the same time and I was like yeah he at the same time and I was like yeah he made this game because this is the made this game because this is the made this game because this is the strange world that he's been thrown into strange world that he's been thrown into strange world that he's been thrown into suddenly after your father died you suddenly after your father died you suddenly after your father died you could have made a film I know I know and could have made a film I know I know and could have made a film I know I know and it's because mainly the reason why I did it's because mainly the reason why I did it's because mainly the reason why I did a game because my father introduced me a game because my father introduced me a game because my father introduced me to games again I wanted to make to games again I wanted to make to games again I wanted to make something that honestly respected him something that honestly respected him something that honestly respected him honestly I kind of paid how much to honestly I kind of paid how much to honestly I kind of paid how much to myself as well to a degree of what I'm myself as well to a degree of what I'm myself as well to a degree of what I'm going through I remember the game I was going through I remember the game I was going through I remember the game I was playing the day I found out he was playing the day I found out he was playing the day I found out he was passing it was The Witcher 3 and like passing it was The Witcher 3 and like passing it was The Witcher 3 and like you know this is the thing and like I it you know this is the thing and like I it you know this is the thing and like I it it was one of those ones where games it was one of those ones where games it was one of those ones where games have been so in my life and ingrained in have been so in my life and ingrained in have been so in my life and ingrained in my life especially with my father like my life especially with my father like my life especially with my father like it's just just been it was just it's just just been it was just it's just just been it was just something that I I had to do and I had something that I I had to do and I had something that I I had to do and I had no idea what it meant to make a game no idea what it meant to make a game no idea what it meant to make a game right you know the only experience I've right you know the only experience I've right you know the only experience I've had of games was voicing Bak right so had of games was voicing Bak right so had of games was voicing Bak right so the idea of making one was almost like the idea of making one was almost like the idea of making one was almost like it was alien territory but I I had to do it was alien territory but I I had to do it was alien territory but I I had to do it because it was the only way to do it because it was the only way to do it because it was the only way to do right by him and he was a software right by him and he was a software right by him and he was a software engineer isn't that right at zero yes engineer isn't that right at zero yes engineer isn't that right at zero yes yeah he was a software engineer at zerox yeah he was a software engineer at zerox yeah he was a software engineer at zerox we um yeah worked in Welling Garden City we um yeah worked in Welling Garden City we um yeah worked in Welling Garden City which was again like a really sort of it which was again like a really sort of it which was again like a really sort of it was is calm peaceful area which was was is calm peaceful area which was was is calm peaceful area which was really cool and he he you know C++ was really cool and he he you know C++ was really cool and he he you know C++ was his thing but he just uh he appreciated

his thing but he just uh he appreciated his thing but he just uh he appreciated the art of games just never really kind the art of games just never really kind the art of games just never really kind of dove into it but he he allowed me to of dove into it but he he allowed me to of dove into it but he he allowed me to play it and and enjoy it and he listened play it and and enjoy it and he listened play it and and enjoy it and he listened to me whenever and he'd watch as well to me whenever and he'd watch as well to me whenever and he'd watch as well right the my my first early viewer or right the my my first early viewer or right the my my first early viewer or fan my subscriber on Twitch that kind of fan my subscriber on Twitch that kind of fan my subscriber on Twitch that kind of thing and was was he still around when thing and was was he still around when thing and was was he still around when you were nominated for a bafta games you were nominated for a bafta games you were nominated for a bafta games award no so this is the thing he passed award no so this is the thing he passed award no so this is the thing he passed away just before I had graduated from away just before I had graduated from away just before I had graduated from drama school oh wow I mean even before I drama school oh wow I mean even before I drama school oh wow I mean even before I got an agent he wasn't able to really got an agent he wasn't able to really got an agent he wasn't able to really see where I got to or or the work that see where I got to or or the work that see where I got to or or the work that he' essentially put into me getting to he' essentially put into me getting to he' essentially put into me getting to where I got to kind of come to fruition where I got to kind of come to fruition where I got to kind of come to fruition in a way yeah when my wife is thinking in a way yeah when my wife is thinking in a way yeah when my wife is thinking about her dad and my father is still about her dad and my father is still about her dad and my father is still around my dad's 80 we hear our dads in around my dad's 80 we hear our dads in around my dad's 80 we hear our dads in our own words and now I have a our own words and now I have a our own words and now I have a 16-year-old and an 18-year-old and I 16-year-old and an 18-year-old and I 16-year-old and an 18-year-old and I keep seeing my dad in Reflections that keep seeing my dad in Reflections that keep seeing my dad in Reflections that you know it's it's his stride it's his you know it's it's his stride it's his you know it's it's his stride it's his hair it's his hairline right I'm curious hair it's his hairline right I'm curious hair it's his hairline right I'm curious you are you're English but your first you are you're English but your first you are you're English but your first generation Kenyon the accent are you generation Kenyon the accent are you generation Kenyon the accent are you your dad in this are you hearing your your dad in this are you hearing your your dad in this are you hearing your dad I mean all the time all the time I dad I mean all the time all the time I dad I mean all the time all the time I mean like I I can yeah I mean definitely mean like I I can yeah I mean definitely mean like I I can yeah I mean definitely definitely pulling from him it's funny definitely pulling from him it's funny definitely pulling from him it's funny though even when I speak to my family though even when I speak to my family though even when I speak to my family and when I speak to even my mother like and when I speak to even my mother like and when I speak to even my mother like the accident kicks in like so it's it's the accident kicks in like so it's it's the accident kicks in like so it's it's very much a a thing so yeah it's it's very much a a thing so yeah it's it's very much a a thing so yeah it's it's funny I I do even find you know not only funny I I do even find you know not only funny I I do even find you know not only within the game Space but even with you within the game Space but even with you within the game Space but even with you know my my own daughter like I can I

know my my own daughter like I can I know my my own daughter like I can I look at her and I'm like oh my God you look at her and I'm like oh my God you look at her and I'm like oh my God you were exactly like my father like I can were exactly like my father like I can were exactly like my father like I can see like the way you that you Furrow see like the way you that you Furrow see like the way you that you Furrow your brow the you know the way you are your brow the you know the way you are your brow the you know the way you are the way you even walk as well like it's the way you even walk as well like it's the way you even walk as well like it's very surreal very very surreal yeah it's very surreal very very surreal yeah it's very surreal very very surreal yeah it's so amazing though to be able to make so amazing though to be able to make so amazing though to be able to make something to create something to birth something to create something to birth something to create something to birth something like a game or a piece of film something like a game or a piece of film something like a game or a piece of film or a piece of art you know on your own or a piece of art you know on your own or a piece of art you know on your own as an homage to your dad and how how as an homage to your dad and how how as an homage to your dad and how how long did it take to make the game though long did it take to make the game though long did it take to make the game though as you said you're not a AAA game studio as you said you're not a AAA game studio as you said you're not a AAA game studio with all absolutely not no way man I with all absolutely not no way man I with all absolutely not no way man I mean like I would say it's funny right mean like I would say it's funny right mean like I would say it's funny right and I'm sure you know this as well like and I'm sure you know this as well like and I'm sure you know this as well like it took about four years from the it took about four years from the it took about four years from the Inception of the studio to like where we Inception of the studio to like where we Inception of the studio to like where we are now to make this game so over just a are now to make this game so over just a are now to make this game so over just a bit over four years and really truly bit over four years and really truly bit over four years and really truly though the thing that I didn't really though the thing that I didn't really though the thing that I didn't really realize the game was made basically in realize the game was made basically in realize the game was made basically in year like that final year of 2023 to year like that final year of 2023 to year like that final year of 2023 to like where we are now like that's where like where we are now like that's where like where we are now like that's where the bulk of this game came to because the bulk of this game came to because the bulk of this game came to because you know a lot of the within the four you know a lot of the within the four you know a lot of the within the four years a lot of the time was spent you years a lot of the time was spent you years a lot of the time was spent you know me building a team from scratch me know me building a team from scratch me know me building a team from scratch me learning as well what it means to make a learning as well what it means to make a learning as well what it means to make a game you know signing the deal with with game you know signing the deal with with game you know signing the deal with with EA like all the admin stuff that you EA like all the admin stuff that you EA like all the admin stuff that you kind of forget about when it comes to kind of forget about when it comes to kind of forget about when it comes to running a business like that was really running a business like that was really running a business like that was really Parton bastel the most you know the the Parton bastel the most you know the the Parton bastel the most you know the the the bulk of essentially getting the the bulk of essentially getting the the bulk of essentially getting the studio up and running the game itself studio up and running the game itself studio up and running the game itself you know we had a prototype and we had you know we had a prototype and we had you know we had a prototype and we had like you know elements of that and and

like you know elements of that and and like you know elements of that and and building blocks here and there but truly building blocks here and there but truly building blocks here and there but truly like its fruition or it its final sort like its fruition or it its final sort like its fruition or it its final sort of elements came into that last year or of elements came into that last year or of elements came into that last year or a bit you know of of death time the a bit you know of of death time the a bit you know of of death time the decisions that one would have to make decisions that one would have to make decisions that one would have to make from a technical perspective even though from a technical perspective even though from a technical perspective even though your dad was a software engineer I don't your dad was a software engineer I don't your dad was a software engineer I don't know if you have a background in know if you have a background in know if you have a background in engineering at all no not at all I mean engineering at all no not at all I mean engineering at all no not at all I mean like I've I've always been fascinated by like I've I've always been fascinated by like I've I've always been fascinated by it but it is another language that it but it is another language that it but it is another language that terrifies me there must be the other terrifies me there must be the other terrifies me there must be the other side which is the CTO and you are the side which is the CTO and you are the side which is the CTO and you are the CEO you must find a trusted person and CEO you must find a trusted person and CEO you must find a trusted person and that person picked a game engine and that person picked a game engine and that person picked a game engine and then you had to find a trusted art then you had to find a trusted art then you had to find a trusted art designer are you the showrunner at this designer are you the showrunner at this designer are you the showrunner at this point basically pretty much yeah I mean point basically pretty much yeah I mean point basically pretty much yeah I mean like the way that I've kind of been and like the way that I've kind of been and like the way that I've kind of been and behaved is very much like the creative behaved is very much like the creative behaved is very much like the creative director show runnery sort of person but director show runnery sort of person but director show runnery sort of person but funnily enough you know the picking the funnily enough you know the picking the funnily enough you know the picking the engine and and all that stuff again was engine and and all that stuff again was engine and and all that stuff again was very much early days like we started very much early days like we started very much early days like we started this game in un this game in un this game in un and then I remember talking to some of and then I remember talking to some of and then I remember talking to some of people who worked at Epic about like people who worked at Epic about like people who worked at Epic about like unreal and what they wanted to do with unreal and what they wanted to do with unreal and what they wanted to do with it and I think you know I was like oh it and I think you know I was like oh it and I think you know I was like oh this is very exciting let's go to Unreal this is very exciting let's go to Unreal this is very exciting let's go to Unreal not realizing like you know you know the not realizing like you know you know the not realizing like you know you know the devs I then had to relearn like how to devs I then had to relearn like how to devs I then had to relearn like how to use unreal but then you know what ended use unreal but then you know what ended use unreal but then you know what ended up happening is I ended up finding up happening is I ended up finding up happening is I ended up finding people who were you know specialized in people who were you know specialized in people who were you know specialized in unreal to kind of build in that and I unreal to kind of build in that and I unreal to kind of build in that and I found it a lot easier to get used to and found it a lot easier to get used to and found it a lot easier to get used to and use as a whole but yeah like even like use as a whole but yeah like even like use as a whole but yeah like even like for example like our CTO came in like for example like our CTO came in like for example like our CTO came in like the last year of the last year of the last year of development like it was honestly development like it was honestly development like it was honestly building the team was one of those ones building the team was one of those ones building the team was one of those ones where it was a massive learning a huge where it was a massive learning a huge where it was a massive learning a huge learning because again you realize again

learning because again you realize again learning because again you realize again like you have to build a space that not like you have to build a space that not like you have to build a space that not only feels secure but also you have to only feels secure but also you have to only feels secure but also you have to know what your your voice is in this know what your your voice is in this know what your your voice is in this industry because there are a lot of industry because there are a lot of industry because there are a lot of games out there and there were a lot of games out there and there were a lot of games out there and there were a lot of indust and Studios out there you know indust and Studios out there you know indust and Studios out there you know yeah and you know I brought up Prince of yeah and you know I brought up Prince of yeah and you know I brought up Prince of Persia not just because it's a great Persia not just because it's a great Persia not just because it's a great game but it came out like a couple of game but it came out like a couple of game but it came out like a couple of weeks ago it's a busy time I assume that weeks ago it's a busy time I assume that weeks ago it's a busy time I assume that you can hear Whispers that a similar and you can hear Whispers that a similar and you can hear Whispers that a similar and I say that in air quotes a similar game I say that in air quotes a similar game I say that in air quotes a similar game in the sense of a 2.5d Metroid Vania in the sense of a 2.5d Metroid Vania in the sense of a 2.5d Metroid Vania sides scroller with a with a kind of a sides scroller with a with a kind of a sides scroller with a with a kind of a painted art style how do you make your painted art style how do you make your painted art style how do you make your game be recognized when this just game be recognized when this just game be recognized when this just Behemoth and Jordan mechner is out there Behemoth and Jordan mechner is out there Behemoth and Jordan mechner is out there you know promoting the heck out of it you know promoting the heck out of it you know promoting the heck out of it but you have been noticed yeah I mean but you have been noticed yeah I mean but you have been noticed yeah I mean it's one of those ones where again the it's one of those ones where again the it's one of those ones where again the one thing that I've realized is because one thing that I've realized is because one thing that I've realized is because I play a lot of games right the one I play a lot of games right the one I play a lot of games right the one thing that I think that I've missed thing that I think that I've missed thing that I think that I've missed really is essentially the heart in it I really is essentially the heart in it I really is essentially the heart in it I drove with this idea of like look even drove with this idea of like look even drove with this idea of like look even though this is our first game and it you though this is our first game and it you though this is our first game and it you know it it it might do well it might not know it it it might do well it might not know it it it might do well it might not the idea though is that we we're putting the idea though is that we we're putting the idea though is that we we're putting something out there with a lot of heart something out there with a lot of heart something out there with a lot of heart in and I think that's how you cut in and I think that's how you cut in and I think that's how you cut through man like I think like truly like through man like I think like truly like through man like I think like truly like for me it was it was about bringing the for me it was it was about bringing the for me it was it was about bringing the artistic perspective to this because artistic perspective to this because artistic perspective to this because this is this is you know games in my this is this is you know games in my this is this is you know games in my eyes are are a technical art like a film eyes are are a technical art like a film eyes are are a technical art like a film or a TV show they are all pieces of art or a TV show they are all pieces of art or a TV show they are all pieces of art they're there to obviously entertain but they're there to obviously entertain but they're there to obviously entertain but they're also there to kind of affect and they're also there to kind of affect and they're also there to kind of affect and I think like that was something that I I think like that was something that I I think like that was something that I really wanted to do now not to say that

really wanted to do now not to say that really wanted to do now not to say that Prince of Persia doesn't have any heart Prince of Persia doesn't have any heart Prince of Persia doesn't have any heart it has a lot of heart and the devs have it has a lot of heart and the devs have it has a lot of heart and the devs have put a lot of care into it and you can put a lot of care into it and you can put a lot of care into it and you can see that through the work it's a it's a see that through the work it's a it's a see that through the work it's a it's a technical Masterpiece but I think like technical Masterpiece but I think like technical Masterpiece but I think like for me the one thing that I you know for me the one thing that I you know for me the one thing that I you know that I knew was going to sort of Aid and that I knew was going to sort of Aid and that I knew was going to sort of Aid and help this was essentially being like help this was essentially being like help this was essentially being like look this is you know giving people more look this is you know giving people more look this is you know giving people more context I never really understood as a context I never really understood as a context I never really understood as a gamer myself the people behind the gamer myself the people behind the gamer myself the people behind the machine if that makes any sense and I machine if that makes any sense and I machine if that makes any sense and I was like well I want to show people that was like well I want to show people that was like well I want to show people that you know people actually make these you know people actually make these you know people actually make these things you know there are actually human things you know there are actually human things you know there are actually human beings behind this and they're driven by beings behind this and they're driven by beings behind this and they're driven by emotion and driven by wanting to do emotion and driven by wanting to do emotion and driven by wanting to do something really you know different and something really you know different and something really you know different and so that was you know that was sort of so that was you know that was sort of so that was you know that was sort of the you know from the get-go where we the you know from the get-go where we the you know from the get-go where we kind of were driving from and that I kind of were driving from and that I kind of were driving from and that I feel aided us essentially being feel aided us essentially being feel aided us essentially being different you know in a way of like different you know in a way of like different you know in a way of like being like Oh yeah it's it's it's the being like Oh yeah it's it's it's the being like Oh yeah it's it's it's the game you know by that guy who went on game you know by that guy who went on game you know by that guy who went on the stage of the game awards and nearly the stage of the game awards and nearly the stage of the game awards and nearly cried you know what I mean yeah one of cried you know what I mean yeah one of cried you know what I mean yeah one of the other things that's interesting is a the other things that's interesting is a the other things that's interesting is a lot of these games uh build a uh a lot of these games uh build a uh a lot of these games uh build a uh a Mythos they build lore and a lot of the Mythos they build lore and a lot of the Mythos they build lore and a lot of the lore is just pulled out of you know lore is just pulled out of you know lore is just pulled out of you know pulled out of nowhere uh you know you pulled out of nowhere uh you know you pulled out of nowhere uh you know you did some work on a Game of Thrones did some work on a Game of Thrones did some work on a Game of Thrones spin-off and you know certainly George spin-off and you know certainly George spin-off and you know certainly George RR Martin makes stuff up right he just RR Martin makes stuff up right he just RR Martin makes stuff up right he just makes up words yeah but I was about an makes up words yeah but I was about an makes up words yeah but I was about an hour into the game and I started hour into the game and I started hour into the game and I started thinking hang on a second in Pulu this thinking hang on a second in Pulu this thinking hang on a second in Pulu this is a real thing like yes in Pulu it's a is a real thing like yes in Pulu it's a is a real thing like yes in Pulu it's a lightning bird it's like a Zulu myth

lightning bird it's like a Zulu myth lightning bird it's like a Zulu myth there's a bontu mythology throughout there's a bontu mythology throughout there's a bontu mythology throughout this but it seems like you're kind of this but it seems like you're kind of this but it seems like you're kind of it's fast and loose isn't the word you it's fast and loose isn't the word you it's fast and loose isn't the word you are liberal in that you you pick from are liberal in that you you pick from are liberal in that you you pick from here in this country and a little bit of here in this country and a little bit of here in this country and a little bit of Zambia a little bit of Kenya because I'm Zambia a little bit of Kenya because I'm Zambia a little bit of Kenya because I'm like is this Swahili well hang on the like is this Swahili well hang on the like is this Swahili well hang on the words are Swahili but he's picking a words are Swahili but he's picking a words are Swahili but he's picking a little Zulu here yeah you me understand little Zulu here yeah you me understand little Zulu here yeah you me understand that like help me it's not one country that like help me it's not one country that like help me it's not one country it's something else no it's it's so for it's something else no it's it's so for it's something else no it's it's so for me it was important again to pull from me it was important again to pull from me it was important again to pull from different Bantu spaces that not only different Bantu spaces that not only different Bantu spaces that not only inspired me on my journey of essentially inspired me on my journey of essentially inspired me on my journey of essentially wanting to tell the story so like for wanting to tell the story so like for wanting to tell the story so like for example filming in South Africa when I example filming in South Africa when I example filming in South Africa when I was doing Raised by Wolves and talking was doing Raised by Wolves and talking was doing Raised by Wolves and talking to the people there there was a feel you to the people there there was a feel you to the people there there was a feel you know there was a real feeling of know there was a real feeling of know there was a real feeling of learning a lot as I was out there you learning a lot as I was out there you learning a lot as I was out there you know talking to sanas as well out there know talking to sanas as well out there know talking to sanas as well out there and learning about the you know the and learning about the you know the and learning about the you know the elements of spirituality and healing in elements of spirituality and healing in elements of spirituality and healing in that in that Essence it was it was that in that Essence it was it was that in that Essence it was it was important for me to pull from these important for me to pull from these important for me to pull from these spaces to then Inspire other people to spaces to then Inspire other people to spaces to then Inspire other people to be like I wonder if this is real or not be like I wonder if this is real or not be like I wonder if this is real or not Google it realize that it is real and be Google it realize that it is real and be Google it realize that it is real and be like I want to learn more because again like I want to learn more because again like I want to learn more because again this is the this is the richness and this is the this is the richness and this is the this is the richness and beauty of es you know specifically with beauty of es you know specifically with beauty of es you know specifically with Bantu myth you know we don't even get me Bantu myth you know we don't even get me Bantu myth you know we don't even get me started on yba but like it's like you started on yba but like it's like you started on yba but like it's like you know there is there is so much there's know there is there is so much there's know there is there is so much there's so many stories and so many characters so many stories and so many characters so many stories and so many characters and so many beings to sort of get and so many beings to sort of get and so many beings to sort of get introduced to I rather than give you one introduced to I rather than give you one introduced to I rather than give you one you know side I want to give you as much you know side I want to give you as much you know side I want to give you as much as I can yeah yeah and it's so cool to as I can yeah yeah and it's so cool to as I can yeah yeah and it's so cool to me that you didn't have to make up a me that you didn't have to make up a me that you didn't have to make up a bunch of stuff again with all due bunch of stuff again with all due bunch of stuff again with all due respect to our friends at Game of respect to our friends at Game of respect to our friends at Game of Thrones but like just digging into like

Thrones but like just digging into like Thrones but like just digging into like asanga which is a traditional healer in asanga which is a traditional healer in asanga which is a traditional healer in South Africa and Ahmad Loi and the South Africa and Ahmad Loi and the South Africa and Ahmad Loi and the ghosts of your ancestors and this is all ghosts of your ancestors and this is all ghosts of your ancestors and this is all real stuff however we have a dozens or real stuff however we have a dozens or real stuff however we have a dozens or maybe even thousands of games that do oh maybe even thousands of games that do oh maybe even thousands of games that do oh it's Zeus again oh you know what I mean it's Zeus again oh you know what I mean it's Zeus again oh you know what I mean like we've all got that Northern like we've all got that Northern like we've all got that Northern Hemisphere Gods Pantheon I don't know Hemisphere Gods Pantheon I don't know Hemisphere Gods Pantheon I don't know how many Assassin's Creed games there how many Assassin's Creed games there how many Assassin's Creed games there are with there's somebody involved from are with there's somebody involved from are with there's somebody involved from northern exactly exactly and this is northern exactly exactly and this is northern exactly exactly and this is this is the thing like for me and again this is the thing like for me and again this is the thing like for me and again I I I remember people being like um oh I I I remember people being like um oh I I I remember people being like um oh are you doing it because of Black are you doing it because of Black are you doing it because of Black Panther and I'm like well not really I'm Panther and I'm like well not really I'm Panther and I'm like well not really I'm just doing it because it's my just doing it because it's my just doing it because it's my perspective like I'm in the driving seat perspective like I'm in the driving seat perspective like I'm in the driving seat I can actually you know make these I can actually you know make these I can actually you know make these decisions and you know a lot of the decisions and you know a lot of the decisions and you know a lot of the stories that my father you know would stories that my father you know would stories that my father you know would give me were very much inspired by these give me were very much inspired by these give me were very much inspired by these spaces and places you know when I was in spaces and places you know when I was in spaces and places you know when I was in South Africa for example I was asking South Africa for example I was asking South Africa for example I was asking these questions because I'm in South these questions because I'm in South these questions because I'm in South Africa and my friends are either Zulu or Africa and my friends are either Zulu or Africa and my friends are either Zulu or Kaa you know so it makes just sense to Kaa you know so it makes just sense to Kaa you know so it makes just sense to for me when it comes to telling stories for me when it comes to telling stories for me when it comes to telling stories I'm coming at it from this perspective I'm coming at it from this perspective I'm coming at it from this perspective rather than necessarily like the Norse rather than necessarily like the Norse rather than necessarily like the Norse myth or the Greek myth or anything like myth or the Greek myth or anything like myth or the Greek myth or anything like that you know because I and yeah you're that you know because I and yeah you're that you know because I and yeah you're right there is a lot of Norse mythology right there is a lot of Norse mythology right there is a lot of Norse mythology you know Greek mythology games and you you know Greek mythology games and you you know Greek mythology games and you know even sometimes Celtic but like know even sometimes Celtic but like know even sometimes Celtic but like truly it's about again that's just you truly it's about again that's just you truly it's about again that's just you know what they are interested in or know what they are interested in or know what they are interested in or their perspective and and that's totally their perspective and and that's totally their perspective and and that's totally fine and cool to do it's just this is my fine and cool to do it's just this is my fine and cool to do it's just this is my vibe now yeah and I think also it's a vibe now yeah and I think also it's a vibe now yeah and I think also it's a rich vein it's a huge untapped

rich vein it's a huge untapped rich vein it's a huge untapped storytelling world that has not been storytelling world that has not been storytelling world that has not been seen and I have to give you credit and seen and I have to give you credit and seen and I have to give you credit and the team credit because it would have the team credit because it would have the team credit because it would have been easy to fall in the oh it's like a been easy to fall in the oh it's like a been easy to fall in the oh it's like a Black Panther game because people are Black Panther game because people are Black Panther game because people are excited about a completely fictional excited about a completely fictional excited about a completely fictional African nation that doesn't exist and we African nation that doesn't exist and we African nation that doesn't exist and we all love black panther black panther 2 all love black panther black panther 2 all love black panther black panther 2 but you know like they speak because but you know like they speak because but you know like they speak because that that's what you know his dad spoke that that's what you know his dad spoke that that's what you know his dad spoke the the South African actor spoke like the the South African actor spoke like the the South African actor spoke like okay we'll just do that they kind of okay we'll just do that they kind of okay we'll just do that they kind of adopted little pieces yeah you really adopted little pieces yeah you really adopted little pieces yeah you really stayed true to these myths and it sent stayed true to these myths and it sent stayed true to these myths and it sent me down a Wikipedia rabbit hole that's me down a Wikipedia rabbit hole that's me down a Wikipedia rabbit hole that's the that was it that I'm done I'm done I the that was it that I'm done I'm done I the that was it that I'm done I'm done I could sign could sign could sign out accomplish yeah exactly honestly I out accomplish yeah exactly honestly I out accomplish yeah exactly honestly I remember telling the team like look as remember telling the team like look as remember telling the team like look as long if we can get anyone or convince long if we can get anyone or convince long if we can get anyone or convince anyone to go down a Wiki Wormhole we've anyone to go down a Wiki Wormhole we've anyone to go down a Wiki Wormhole we've done our job that's it yeah and and I'm done our job that's it yeah and and I'm done our job that's it yeah and and I'm talking to like our our family in South talking to like our our family in South talking to like our our family in South Africa in Zimbabwe and I'm asking them Africa in Zimbabwe and I'm asking them Africa in Zimbabwe and I'm asking them about myths and some of them don't about myths and some of them don't about myths and some of them don't remember them and they're like well yeah remember them and they're like well yeah remember them and they're like well yeah I kind of remember that so it's actually I kind of remember that so it's actually I kind of remember that so it's actually digging up previous memories of things digging up previous memories of things digging up previous memories of things that they were told when they were five that they were told when they were five that they were told when they were five or six but aren't you know in this kind or six but aren't you know in this kind or six but aren't you know in this kind of postcolonial world we don't really of postcolonial world we don't really of postcolonial world we don't really think about them as much no no and now think about them as much no no and now think about them as much no no and now we are again and I just think it's so we are again and I just think it's so we are again and I just think it's so cool to have you know I don't know I cool to have you know I don't know I cool to have you know I don't know I don't know why I assumed that it was don't know why I assumed that it was don't know why I assumed that it was just made up and then I was like because just made up and then I was like because just made up and then I was like because I've been like I said I've been married I've been like I said I've been married I've been like I said I've been married to a inel for 25 years like I can speak to a inel for 25 years like I can speak to a inel for 25 years like I can speak the language like a 5-year-old so I'm the language like a 5-year-old so I'm the language like a 5-year-old so I'm like hang on a second this is all this like hang on a second this is all this like hang on a second this is all this is why he because we actually stayed in

is why he because we actually stayed in is why he because we actually stayed in um now I'm off on a tangent now we um now I'm off on a tangent now we um now I'm off on a tangent now we stayed in we spent time in Nairobi and stayed in we spent time in Nairobi and stayed in we spent time in Nairobi and also in parts of Tanzania because my also in parts of Tanzania because my also in parts of Tanzania because my sister-in-law worked at the UN ictr at sister-in-law worked at the UN ictr at sister-in-law worked at the UN ictr at the tribunal there so we've driven from the tribunal there so we've driven from the tribunal there so we've driven from Aria all the way up through and across Aria all the way up through and across Aria all the way up through and across the border so we've been all over the the border so we've been all over the the border so we've been all over the continent and I've got all these the continent and I've got all these the continent and I've got all these the meter of speech and all of these these meter of speech and all of these these meter of speech and all of these these words and these pieces in in our heads words and these pieces in in our heads words and these pieces in in our heads and for now me to be able to share the and for now me to be able to share the and for now me to be able to share the game with my wife and with my kids who game with my wife and with my kids who game with my wife and with my kids who have a foot in each really cool right have a foot in each really cool right have a foot in each really cool right that's that's dop yeah because I mean that's that's dop yeah because I mean that's that's dop yeah because I mean yeah it's that idea for me it's it's yeah it's that idea for me it's it's yeah it's that idea for me it's it's again it's it's like these stories a lot again it's it's like these stories a lot again it's it's like these stories a lot of these stories aren't necessarily of these stories aren't necessarily of these stories aren't necessarily remembered because they're mainly You remembered because they're mainly You remembered because they're mainly You Know spoken like that's the that's the Know spoken like that's the that's the Know spoken like that's the that's the thing about banto Tales they they're thing about banto Tales they they're thing about banto Tales they they're it's an oral storytelling tradition it's an oral storytelling tradition it's an oral storytelling tradition griots for example you know would be and griots for example you know would be and griots for example you know would be and and I think like that's how it can and I think like that's how it can and I think like that's how it can easily be forgotten like only rarely are easily be forgotten like only rarely are easily be forgotten like only rarely are there some books and you know either the there some books and you know either the there some books and you know either the books are written by you know people who books are written by you know people who books are written by you know people who kind of get it but don't but then kind of get it but don't but then kind of get it but don't but then they're all they're written you know but they're all they're written you know but they're all they're written you know but I've got the a book by kredo muta which I've got the a book by kredo muta which I've got the a book by kredo muta which was you know he was also a s who you was you know he was also a s who you was you know he was also a s who you know wrot these stories but then again know wrot these stories but then again know wrot these stories but then again they're all perspectives right and this they're all perspectives right and this they're all perspectives right and this is the beauty of the oral storytelling is the beauty of the oral storytelling is the beauty of the oral storytelling tradition it's like you would tell me a tradition it's like you would tell me a tradition it's like you would tell me a story you know you might have the story you know you might have the story you know you might have the impundu as like you know as a small you impundu as like you know as a small you impundu as like you know as a small you know lightning bird I'd go and tell my know lightning bird I'd go and tell my know lightning bird I'd go and tell my daughter and it's this huge thing you daughter and it's this huge thing you daughter and it's this huge thing you know what I mean and so like that's you know what I mean and so like that's you know what I mean and so like that's you know that's that was the beauty of it as know that's that was the beauty of it as know that's that was the beauty of it as well you could change bits and make it well you could change bits and make it well you could change bits and make it your own and and play with it that way your own and and play with it that way your own and and play with it that way so that was something that was you know so that was something that was you know so that was something that was you know really important to kind of do as well

really important to kind of do as well really important to kind of do as well was to kind of have this element of oral was to kind of have this element of oral was to kind of have this element of oral storytelling to the game as a whole yeah storytelling to the game as a whole yeah storytelling to the game as a whole yeah do you think that this is a moment do you think that this is a moment do you think that this is a moment though for for I mean I know this was though for for I mean I know this was though for for I mean I know this was was this made in uh in England where is was this made in uh in England where is was this made in uh in England where is your studio look at yeah I mean we're your studio look at yeah I mean we're your studio look at yeah I mean we're we're a remote studio so it you know it we're a remote studio so it you know it we're a remote studio so it you know it was it was important yeah it was was it was important yeah it was was it was important yeah it was important for me you know a lot of the important for me you know a lot of the important for me you know a lot of the you know concept art when I started this you know concept art when I started this you know concept art when I started this game again no idea what it means to make game again no idea what it means to make game again no idea what it means to make a game all I knew is that you need a a game all I knew is that you need a a game all I knew is that you need a really cool art right to begin with a really cool art right to begin with a really cool art right to begin with a lot of the concept art where where we lot of the concept art where where we lot of the concept art where where we started was done by an artist called started was done by an artist called started was done by an artist called Godwin akpan who's in Nigeria um you Godwin akpan who's in Nigeria um you Godwin akpan who's in Nigeria um you know now we've got uh Tumo who's in know now we've got uh Tumo who's in know now we've got uh Tumo who's in bosana um Idris as well Ibrahim Idris bosana um Idris as well Ibrahim Idris bosana um Idris as well Ibrahim Idris who's also in Nigeria like South African who's also in Nigeria like South African who's also in Nigeria like South African artist as well did a lot of the work artist as well did a lot of the work artist as well did a lot of the work while we were you know 3D work as well while we were you know 3D work as well while we were you know 3D work as well like it we're we're all over the place like it we're we're all over the place like it we're we're all over the place you know got people in New York you know you know got people in New York you know you know got people in New York you know we had people working in France we've we had people working in France we've we had people working in France we've got you know mainly people are in got you know mainly people are in got you know mainly people are in England But ultimately we're a remote England But ultimately we're a remote England But ultimately we're a remote Studio that's amazing and like say what Studio that's amazing and like say what Studio that's amazing and like say what you will about Co but it made remote you will about Co but it made remote you will about Co but it made remote work happen oh man it really did we're work happen oh man it really did we're work happen oh man it really did we're doing this remotely borders don't matter doing this remotely borders don't matter doing this remotely borders don't matter anymore yeah that's basically and you anymore yeah that's basically and you anymore yeah that's basically and you know the thing is like we were always know the thing is like we were always know the thing is like we were always going to be a remote going to be a remote going to be a remote Studio what it it was kind of like a by Studio what it it was kind of like a by Studio what it it was kind of like a by chance that Co hit and was like oh well chance that Co hit and was like oh well chance that Co hit and was like oh well this is the normal way of working now so this is the normal way of working now so this is the normal way of working now so yeah yeah yeah um one of the things I yeah yeah yeah um one of the things I yeah yeah yeah um one of the things I wanted to dig into a little bit is the wanted to dig into a little bit is the wanted to dig into a little bit is the the feel the the part that blows me away the feel the the part that blows me away the feel the the part that blows me away the most about a game is that there's a the most about a game is that there's a the most about a game is that there's a loop an inner loop that they call the loop an inner loop that they call the loop an inner loop that they call the gameplay loop it's hard to explain gameplay loop it's hard to explain gameplay loop it's hard to explain especially on a podcast but do your

especially on a podcast but do your especially on a podcast but do your hands feel right does your body move hands feel right does your body move hands feel right does your body move correctly do you lean forward when correctly do you lean forward when correctly do you lean forward when you're trying to make a certain wall you're trying to make a certain wall you're trying to make a certain wall jump and is this the left bumper is that jump and is this the left bumper is that jump and is this the left bumper is that what it should do or should it be the what it should do or should it be the what it should do or should it be the right bumper what makes your hands feel right bumper what makes your hands feel right bumper what makes your hands feel right there's some punishing platforming right there's some punishing platforming right there's some punishing platforming in this game I know I mean I was in in in this game I know I mean I was in in in this game I know I mean I was in in act one trying to get up to the bobob act one trying to get up to the bobob act one trying to get up to the bobob tree yeah I spent probably 20 minutes tree yeah I spent probably 20 minutes tree yeah I spent probably 20 minutes trying to wall jump there and I'm trying to wall jump there and I'm trying to wall jump there and I'm thinking to myself like am I I felt like thinking to myself like am I I felt like thinking to myself like am I I felt like I was competing against you because I was competing against you because I was competing against you because you're in a room somewhere talking about you're in a room somewhere talking about you're in a room somewhere talking about milliseconds with the team yeah trying milliseconds with the team yeah trying milliseconds with the team yeah trying to decide the right amount of to decide the right amount of to decide the right amount of milliseconds for you to have that window milliseconds for you to have that window milliseconds for you to have that window to press the button are you deciding to press the button are you deciding to press the button are you deciding those things are the team deciding that those things are the team deciding that those things are the team deciding that the feel of it in your hands feel a the feel of it in your hands feel a the feel of it in your hands feel a certain way it's it's it's a mix of both certain way it's it's it's a mix of both certain way it's it's it's a mix of both you know I I you know for me I really you know I I you know for me I really you know I I you know for me I really told the team like I mean it's like you told the team like I mean it's like you told the team like I mean it's like you okay put it this way the the team that I okay put it this way the the team that I okay put it this way the the team that I formed have never really built a Metroid formed have never really built a Metroid formed have never really built a Metroid Vania before and they've never built a Vania before and they've never built a Vania before and they've never built a sidescroller before they are you know sidescroller before they are you know sidescroller before they are you know most of the team are very much most of the team are very much most of the team are very much developers who come from either like the developers who come from either like the developers who come from either like the Hitman series or you know or big sort of Hitman series or you know or big sort of Hitman series or you know or big sort of you know like yeah it's it's very it's you know like yeah it's it's very it's you know like yeah it's it's very it's it this is like the first time so this it this is like the first time so this it this is like the first time so this is also why I was like I'm going to is also why I was like I'm going to is also why I was like I'm going to throw everyone in the deep end so you throw everyone in the deep end so you throw everyone in the deep end so you know one of the things that they're very know one of the things that they're very know one of the things that they're very what we were good at though or what we what we were good at though or what we what we were good at though or what we wanted to do was we wanted to kind of wanted to do was we wanted to kind of wanted to do was we wanted to kind of capture this element of if feeling like capture this element of if feeling like capture this element of if feeling like a dance but at the same time you have to a dance but at the same time you have to a dance but at the same time you have to be precise you know and I think like

be precise you know and I think like be precise you know and I think like that is what has been key to conveying that is what has been key to conveying that is what has been key to conveying this feeling of grief of the Journey of this feeling of grief of the Journey of this feeling of grief of the Journey of grief the feeling that it does feel like grief the feeling that it does feel like grief the feeling that it does feel like you're kind of in this you know this you're kind of in this you know this you're kind of in this you know this loud music like you know the music is loud music like you know the music is loud music like you know the music is pumping it's crazy you kind of there's a pumping it's crazy you kind of there's a pumping it's crazy you kind of there's a lot of noise but if you really focus you lot of noise but if you really focus you lot of noise but if you really focus you can hear the beat of the drum and that's can hear the beat of the drum and that's can hear the beat of the drum and that's how you essentially figure out and find how you essentially figure out and find how you essentially figure out and find the way of jumping dashing jump jump the way of jumping dashing jump jump the way of jumping dashing jump jump Dash and it's like so that's why we Dash and it's like so that's why we Dash and it's like so that's why we really want that's what we really wanted really want that's what we really wanted really want that's what we really wanted to do it's almost like a lot of the to do it's almost like a lot of the to do it's almost like a lot of the people who I find myself anyway when I people who I find myself anyway when I people who I find myself anyway when I play games sometimes you attack the play games sometimes you attack the play games sometimes you attack the controller and the more you kind of get controller and the more you kind of get controller and the more you kind of get frustrated the more attacking you you frustrated the more attacking you you frustrated the more attacking you you ATT you the more you kind of keep ATT you the more you kind of keep ATT you the more you kind of keep attacking the controller well naturally attacking the controller well naturally attacking the controller well naturally the way to kind of beat this is the the way to kind of beat this is the the way to kind of beat this is the opposite every time you fail you get opposite every time you fail you get opposite every time you fail you get karma because that's essentially the way karma because that's essentially the way karma because that's essentially the way again that's that journey of grief oh again that's that journey of grief oh again that's that journey of grief oh man uh people can't see me or maybe they man uh people can't see me or maybe they man uh people can't see me or maybe they will if they put if I put this on will if they put if I put this on will if they put if I put this on YouTube but like you just blew my mind YouTube but like you just blew my mind YouTube but like you just blew my mind so I've been playing this for the last so I've been playing this for the last so I've been playing this for the last several you know weeks since it came out several you know weeks since it came out several you know weeks since it came out but I played it for the last two hours but I played it for the last two hours but I played it for the last two hours literally right up until five minutes literally right up until five minutes literally right up until five minutes before you came on because I wanted to before you came on because I wanted to before you came on because I wanted to have the feeling in my hands and I was have the feeling in my hands and I was have the feeling in my hands and I was going up and down this freaking this one going up and down this freaking this one going up and down this freaking this one section where you have to not wall jump section where you have to not wall jump section where you have to not wall jump two or three times but it's precise wall two or three times but it's precise wall two or three times but it's precise wall jump wall jump half of a double jump jump wall jump half of a double jump jump wall jump half of a double jump smash over you know just it was very and smash over you know just it was very and smash over you know just it was very and I was getting so angry and then I end up I was getting so angry and then I end up I was getting so angry and then I end up on an elevator where there's like every on an elevator where there's like every on an elevator where there's like every level is new guys new enemies yeah and

level is new guys new enemies yeah and level is new guys new enemies yeah and I'm chasing after this little girl who's I'm chasing after this little girl who's I'm chasing after this little girl who's always one step uh away yeah and I was always one step uh away yeah and I was always one step uh away yeah and I was getting so freaking mad and I just I did getting so freaking mad and I just I did getting so freaking mad and I just I did it you you manipulated me you I was I it you you manipulated me you I was I it you you manipulated me you I was I was Button mashing and I literally put was Button mashing and I literally put was Button mashing and I literally put the thing down and I went this freaking the thing down and I went this freaking the thing down and I went this freaking game man okay and I was game man okay and I was game man okay and I was like pop po po pop and you're absolutely like pop po po pop and you're absolutely like pop po po pop and you're absolutely right and it was and it was not a rhythm right and it was and it was not a rhythm right and it was and it was not a rhythm game but it was for a moment yeah until game but it was for a moment yeah until game but it was for a moment yeah until I got to the top and then I went ah and I got to the top and then I went ah and I got to the top and then I went ah and all the tension came out of my shoulders all the tension came out of my shoulders all the tension came out of my shoulders and that's and that's the thing that's and that's and that's the thing that's and that's and that's the thing that's the thing like I think with with me I the thing like I think with with me I the thing like I think with with me I remember I remember again and I'm still remember I remember again and I'm still remember I remember again and I'm still am sometimes I have my moments where I'm am sometimes I have my moments where I'm am sometimes I have my moments where I'm I'm I'm feeling so emal and I get lost I'm I'm feeling so emal and I get lost I'm I'm feeling so emal and I get lost in it and like you know I feel like I'm in it and like you know I feel like I'm in it and like you know I feel like I'm getting frustrated I keep getting getting frustrated I keep getting getting frustrated I keep getting frustrated and I'm not being able to do frustrated and I'm not being able to do frustrated and I'm not being able to do it and it's only until I actually take a it and it's only until I actually take a it and it's only until I actually take a breather stop and just I'm like actually breather stop and just I'm like actually breather stop and just I'm like actually hold on I can do this is when you do it hold on I can do this is when you do it hold on I can do this is when you do it it's like you know it's that it's I the it's like you know it's that it's I the it's like you know it's that it's I the feeling reminiscent is to like when you feeling reminiscent is to like when you feeling reminiscent is to like when you keep failing a Sonic level or like a keep failing a Sonic level or like a keep failing a Sonic level or like a Mario level you know the more you fail Mario level you know the more you fail Mario level you know the more you fail it the the harder it gets because you're it the the harder it gets because you're it the the harder it gets because you're like oh God and you keep getting like oh God and you keep getting like oh God and you keep getting frustrated and you keep thinking about frustrated and you keep thinking about frustrated and you keep thinking about it too much when it too much when it too much when the trick is to not think about it yeah the trick is to not think about it yeah the trick is to not think about it yeah you know that is exactly I was I was you you know that is exactly I was I was you you know that is exactly I was I was you were evoking Mario you were evoking yeah were evoking Mario you were evoking yeah were evoking Mario you were evoking yeah uh all of these games and I could feel uh all of these games and I could feel uh all of these games and I could feel it in my hands and I was like this it in my hands and I was like this it in my hands and I was like this thing's this thing's broken there's thing's this thing's broken there's thing's this thing's broken there's there's a timing problem here there's there's a timing problem here there's there's a timing problem here there's something he just adds a couple hundred something he just adds a couple hundred something he just adds a couple hundred milliseconds there it'll be fine and

milliseconds there it'll be fine and milliseconds there it'll be fine and then I walked away and I stretched my then I walked away and I stretched my then I walked away and I stretched my hands and I came back and I got the hands and I came back and I got the hands and I came back and I got the tempo and I I made it and it was hard I tempo and I I made it and it was hard I tempo and I I made it and it was hard I mean you know the level I'm talking mean you know the level I'm talking mean you know the level I'm talking about it was yeah I wouldn't say about it was yeah I wouldn't say about it was yeah I wouldn't say punishing because I don't like games punishing because I don't like games punishing because I don't like games that are punitive no was Unapologetic that are punitive no was Unapologetic that are punitive no was Unapologetic and there are and there are and there are Unapologetic uh instad death yes things Unapologetic uh instad death yes things Unapologetic uh instad death yes things as well which is a very conscious as well which is a very conscious as well which is a very conscious decision to make an in I mean like yeah decision to make an in I mean like yeah decision to make an in I mean like yeah I know I I it was one of those ones I know I I it was one of those ones I know I I it was one of those ones where I I think it's funny again you you where I I think it's funny again you you where I I think it's funny again you you and this is this is also something that and this is this is also something that and this is this is also something that I'm also learning right you making this I'm also learning right you making this I'm also learning right you making this game as a developer you spent four years game as a developer you spent four years game as a developer you spent four years in this space so you play it and you in this space so you play it and you in this space so you play it and you don't really notice those elements as don't really notice those elements as don't really notice those elements as much give it to someone who's new and much give it to someone who's new and much give it to someone who's new and fresh to this whole world they're fresh to this whole world they're fresh to this whole world they're noticing it a lot you know and I think noticing it a lot you know and I think noticing it a lot you know and I think like in my mind I'm like ah okay I get like in my mind I'm like ah okay I get like in my mind I'm like ah okay I get it it's a bit like I keep thinking about it it's a bit like I keep thinking about it it's a bit like I keep thinking about the first aie for example oh first the the first aie for example oh first the the first aie for example oh first the first ay was punishing especially to the first ay was punishing especially to the first ay was punishing especially to the point where you didn't have any point where you didn't have any point where you didn't have any checkpoints it was always to the last checkpoints it was always to the last checkpoints it was always to the last save you made so you're always thinking save you made so you're always thinking save you made so you're always thinking about that last save that you had to about that last save that you had to about that last save that you had to make because if you didn't make that make because if you didn't make that make because if you didn't make that save you would have to start all the way save you would have to start all the way save you would have to start all the way back again back again back again and it was oh my God it was it was and it was oh my God it was it was and it was oh my God it was it was horrifying so like for horrifying so like for horrifying so like for me I can imagine like the developers me I can imagine like the developers me I can imagine like the developers being like yeah this is a great idea being like yeah this is a great idea being like yeah this is a great idea this is cool and they're able to get it this is cool and they're able to get it this is cool and they're able to get it because they know the world and what it because they know the world and what it because they know the world and what it is but then when you come to a new is but then when you come to a new is but then when you come to a new player you're like oh my God this is player you're like oh my God this is player you're like oh my God this is like this is taxing you know what I mean like this is taxing you know what I mean like this is taxing you know what I mean like a't got time to do this again so like a't got time to do this again so like a't got time to do this again so yeah it is very much those and look I

yeah it is very much those and look I yeah it is very much those and look I mean like the instad death elements as mean like the instad death elements as mean like the instad death elements as well like truly it's it was a feeling of well like truly it's it was a feeling of well like truly it's it was a feeling of you know something that we wanted to do you know something that we wanted to do you know something that we wanted to do especially with platforming especially with platforming especially with platforming you don't want to Coast something you you don't want to Coast something you you don't want to Coast something you don't want to you know be able to kind don't want to you know be able to kind don't want to you know be able to kind of get knocked back and then suddenly of get knocked back and then suddenly of get knocked back and then suddenly just keep carrying on because then you just keep carrying on because then you just keep carrying on because then you don't think about what you're doing you don't think about what you're doing you don't think about what you're doing you just are like oh okay hit me and then just are like oh okay hit me and then just are like oh okay hit me and then you move on that's the thing about those you move on that's the thing about those you move on that's the thing about those Thorns the Thorns which are you know Thorns the Thorns which are you know Thorns the Thorns which are you know kind of ready pink when they knock you kind of ready pink when they knock you kind of ready pink when they knock you back a bit they take a bit of your back a bit they take a bit of your back a bit they take a bit of your health but they're not really health but they're not really health but they're not really threatening you can kind of move on but threatening you can kind of move on but threatening you can kind of move on but every time you see those really white every time you see those really white every time you see those really white spikes those instad death spikes you're spikes those instad death spikes you're spikes those instad death spikes you're like oh buddy I've got to think about like oh buddy I've got to think about like oh buddy I've got to think about this now I've got to be really careful this now I've got to be really careful this now I've got to be really careful and that invokes an and that invokes an and that invokes an and that's the thing it invokes and that's the thing it invokes and that's the thing it invokes something in you that makes you think something in you that makes you think something in you that makes you think like I've got to really think about what like I've got to really think about what like I've got to really think about what I'm about to do here because any false I'm about to do here because any false I'm about to do here because any false move is going to set me back that's so move is going to set me back that's so move is going to set me back that's so true and some of those spikes you like true and some of those spikes you like true and some of those spikes you like oh I'll just jump over them well no you oh I'll just jump over them well no you oh I'll just jump over them well no you won't because there's another one right won't because there's another one right won't because there's another one right exactly Apex of your jump exactly exactly Apex of your jump exactly exactly Apex of your jump exactly exactly exactly thinking if you did that exactly exactly thinking if you did that exactly exactly thinking if you did that on on on purpose this is the thing but the thing purpose this is the thing but the thing purpose this is the thing but the thing is it's it's a good way also of for me is it's it's a good way also of for me is it's it's a good way also of for me because like you know I'm watching my because like you know I'm watching my because like you know I'm watching my wife play for example and it's a good wife play for example and it's a good wife play for example and it's a good way of her learning you know the idea of way of her learning you know the idea of way of her learning you know the idea of actually oh yeah Precision jumping actually oh yeah Precision jumping actually oh yeah Precision jumping depending on how hard I pressed that x depending on how hard I pressed that x depending on how hard I pressed that x button it allows me to kind of alter the button it allows me to kind of alter the button it allows me to kind of alter the height of the jump and honestly you height of the jump and honestly you height of the jump and honestly you could see that she was doing this like could see that she was doing this like could see that she was doing this like three or four or five times she's never three or four or five times she's never three or four or five times she's never played games before but when she did it played games before but when she did it played games before but when she did it that feeling of elation she it it's it's that feeling of elation she it it's it's that feeling of elation she it it's it's you can't you can't replicate that stuff

you can't you can't replicate that stuff you can't you can't replicate that stuff man yeah you really can't it's been an man yeah you really can't it's been an man yeah you really can't it's been an absolute joy to play and I got to say absolute joy to play and I got to say absolute joy to play and I got to say like I know you said that it's you're a like I know you said that it's you're a like I know you said that it's you're a small Studio but I played Metroid dread small Studio but I played Metroid dread small Studio but I played Metroid dread a couple of months ago I'm in the middle a couple of months ago I'm in the middle a couple of months ago I'm in the middle of Prince of Persia I'm in the middle of of Prince of Persia I'm in the middle of of Prince of Persia I'm in the middle of tales of keroa put him side by side you tales of keroa put him side by side you tales of keroa put him side by side you can't tell what the triaa game is and can't tell what the triaa game is and can't tell what the triaa game is and what the single a game is oh man thank what the single a game is oh man thank what the single a game is oh man thank you so much Budd honestly the last you so much Budd honestly the last you so much Budd honestly the last question I wanted to ask you is the the question I wanted to ask you is the the question I wanted to ask you is the the price point yeah this is a bargain for price point yeah this is a bargain for price point yeah this is a bargain for the number of hours you get that must a the number of hours you get that must a the number of hours you get that must a conscious decision as well not a $60 conscious decision as well not a $60 conscious decision as well not a $60 game game game for 20 30 bucks yeah 20 bucks yeah yeah for 20 30 bucks yeah 20 bucks yeah yeah for 20 30 bucks yeah 20 bucks yeah yeah yeah it was it was one of those ones yeah it was it was one of those ones yeah it was it was one of those ones again like I again you know I I'm very again like I again you know I I'm very again like I again you know I I'm very much aware that gaming is a is as a much aware that gaming is a is as a much aware that gaming is a is as a hobby is quite expensive right for for hobby is quite expensive right for for hobby is quite expensive right for for anyone I remember when I was growing up anyone I remember when I was growing up anyone I remember when I was growing up I could basically only get like one game I could basically only get like one game I could basically only get like one game a year like literally it was it was very a year like literally it was it was very a year like literally it was it was very difficult so when it came to deciding difficult so when it came to deciding difficult so when it came to deciding about what the price point is I remember about what the price point is I remember about what the price point is I remember talking to EA about this and you know talking to EA about this and you know talking to EA about this and you know talking about this this this and the talking about this this this and the talking about this this this and the other and we were essentially like other and we were essentially like other and we were essentially like actually actually actually what's the price of pizza you know when what's the price of pizza you know when what's the price of pizza you know when you order a pizza or you order a takeout you order a pizza or you order a takeout you order a pizza or you order a takeout like what's that going to be like and like what's that going to be like and like what's that going to be like and essentially we like oh was about you essentially we like oh was about you essentially we like oh was about you know 20 bucks or you know $6.99 here for know 20 bucks or you know $6.99 here for know 20 bucks or you know $6.99 here for example like well get it make it the example like well get it make it the example like well get it make it the price of pizza think that people are you price of pizza think that people are you price of pizza think that people are you know are stealing from the company man know are stealing from the company man know are stealing from the company man like give them something really good like give them something really good like give them something really good because you don't feel bad when you eat

because you don't feel bad when you eat because you don't feel bad when you eat a pizza like a pizza's good right so a pizza like a pizza's good right so a pizza like a pizza's good right so that to me was really important it was that to me was really important it was that to me was really important it was important to make this game as important to make this game as important to make this game as accessible as possible to as many people accessible as possible to as many people accessible as possible to as many people as possible that doesn't necessarily as possible that doesn't necessarily as possible that doesn't necessarily feel like I'm having to break my own feel like I'm having to break my own feel like I'm having to break my own bank account or or decide whether I'm bank account or or decide whether I'm bank account or or decide whether I'm going to do shopping for the week or buy going to do shopping for the week or buy going to do shopping for the week or buy a video game because I feel like that's a video game because I feel like that's a video game because I feel like that's essentially the the space that we're essentially the the space that we're essentially the the space that we're kind of jumping into a bit so yeah it kind of jumping into a bit so yeah it kind of jumping into a bit so yeah it was important to to make this a price was important to to make this a price was important to to make this a price point that felt accessible to as many point that felt accessible to as many point that felt accessible to as many people as possible but also give them people as possible but also give them people as possible but also give them the experience and you know the high the experience and you know the high the experience and you know the high fidelity of a game that fidelity of a game that fidelity of a game that feels good you feels good you feels good you know yeah that makes sense these $70 know yeah that makes sense these $70 know yeah that makes sense these $70 games are getting out of control but games are getting out of control but games are getting out of control but crazy the number of hours of value that crazy the number of hours of value that crazy the number of hours of value that has already been provided like for the has already been provided like for the has already been provided like for the price of a pizza or a movie ticket uh price of a pizza or a movie ticket uh price of a pizza or a movie ticket uh you know it's already it's already you know it's already it's already you know it's already it's already proven itself it has been an absolute proven itself it has been an absolute proven itself it has been an absolute Joy chatting with you sir I could talk Joy chatting with you sir I could talk Joy chatting with you sir I could talk to you for another hour I'm sure and I to you for another hour I'm sure and I to you for another hour I'm sure and I want to thank you for spending time with want to thank you for spending time with want to thank you for spending time with me today no thank you for having me man me today no thank you for having me man me today no thank you for having me man really really appreciate it Tales of really really appreciate it Tales of really really appreciate it Tales of Kera Zhao is available now on Nintendo Kera Zhao is available now on Nintendo Kera Zhao is available now on Nintendo switch PlayStation 5 Xbox and windows switch PlayStation 5 Xbox and windows switch PlayStation 5 Xbox and windows under the EA Originals publishing label under the EA Originals publishing label under the EA Originals publishing label you can get it everywhere that you get you can get it everywhere that you get you can get it everywhere that you get games I want to thank Abu Bakr salum for games I want to thank Abu Bakr salum for games I want to thank Abu Bakr salum for spending time with me today and this has spending time with me today and this has spending time with me today and this has been another episode of Hansel minutes been another episode of Hansel minutes been another episode of Hansel minutes and we'll see you again next week and we'll see you again next week and we'll see you again next week [Music]

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