Robots, Nukes, and AI: A Career at the Frontier with Maynard Holliday

[music] [music] >> Hey friends, I'm Scott Hanselman and >> Hey friends, I'm Scott Hanselman and >> Hey friends, I'm Scott Hanselman and it's another episode of Hanselminutes. it's another episode of Hanselminutes. it's another episode of Hanselminutes. Today I have the distinct pleasure of Today I have the distinct pleasure of Today I have the distinct pleasure of chatting with Maynard Holiday. I could chatting with Maynard Holiday. I could chatting with Maynard Holiday. I could spend the next 30 minutes talking about spend the next 30 minutes talking about spend the next 30 minutes talking about Maynard Holiday and all the things that Maynard Holiday and all the things that Maynard Holiday and all the things that he's done. Uh he performed the duties of he's done. Uh he performed the duties of he's done. Uh he performed the duties of Assistant Secretary of Defense for Assistant Secretary of Defense for Assistant Secretary of Defense for critical technologies in the office of critical technologies in the office of critical technologies in the office of the Under Secretary of Defense for the Under Secretary of Defense for the Under Secretary of Defense for Research and Engineering and he has been Research and Engineering and he has been Research and Engineering and he has been a roboticist probably since he could a roboticist probably since he could a roboticist probably since he could walk. Um his resume is long and storied walk. Um his resume is long and storied walk. Um his resume is long and storied and we are very fortunate to have him on and we are very fortunate to have him on and we are very fortunate to have him on the show today. How are you, sir? the show today. How are you, sir? the show today. How are you, sir? >> All right, good to be with you, Scott. >> All right, good to be with you, Scott. >> All right, good to be with you, Scott. >> So um I we have to point out for folks >> So um I we have to point out for folks >> So um I we have to point out for folks that are listening and not seeing this. that are listening and not seeing this. that are listening and not seeing this. Some folks will see it on YouTube, some Some folks will see it on YouTube, some Some folks will see it on YouTube, some folks will be listening in their car, folks will be listening in their car, folks will be listening in their car, but behind you is a wonderful a series but behind you is a wonderful a series but behind you is a wonderful a series of Marvel characters. I see Captain of Marvel characters. I see Captain of Marvel characters. I see Captain America there in the form of Falcon. I America there in the form of Falcon. I America there in the form of Falcon. I see Storm. I see Black Panther. Are you see Storm. I see Black Panther. Are you see Storm. I see Black Panther. Are you a comic nerd from way back? a comic nerd from way back? a comic nerd from way back? >> I am. Original >> I am. Original >> I am. Original uh Marvel true believer uh from the Stan uh Marvel true believer uh from the Stan uh Marvel true believer uh from the Stan Stan Lee Jack Kirby years uh and uh some Stan Lee Jack Kirby years uh and uh some Stan Lee Jack Kirby years uh and uh some of my earliest of my earliest of my earliest uh uh uh uh motivations uh motivations uh motivations uh uh uh come from the the comic realm.

come from the the comic realm. come from the the comic realm. >> How how important was that though? Yeah, >> How how important was that though? Yeah, >> How how important was that though? Yeah, Iron Man. Iron Man. Iron Man. >> Very important. Um >> Very important. Um >> Very important. Um you know, Tony Stark has no superpower you know, Tony Stark has no superpower you know, Tony Stark has no superpower but his mind. but his mind. but his mind. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And and so that made an impression on >> And and so that made an impression on >> And and so that made an impression on me, you know, as a young young boy. And me, you know, as a young young boy. And me, you know, as a young young boy. And then to see reflections in comics of then to see reflections in comics of then to see reflections in comics of people of African descent in positions people of African descent in positions people of African descent in positions of power, authority, and and knowledge. of power, authority, and and knowledge. of power, authority, and and knowledge. And Black Panther, you know, T'Challa in And Black Panther, you know, T'Challa in And Black Panther, you know, T'Challa in the comics the comics the comics is the the scientist of Wakanda, not is the the scientist of Wakanda, not is the the scientist of Wakanda, not Shuri as depicted in the current MCU. Shuri as depicted in the current MCU. Shuri as depicted in the current MCU. And so, T'Challa, you know, in his And so, T'Challa, you know, in his And so, T'Challa, you know, in his instantiation in the comics, was an instantiation in the comics, was an instantiation in the comics, was an early role model for me as well. early role model for me as well. early role model for me as well. >> And also, people can see you've got the >> And also, people can see you've got the >> And also, people can see you've got the looks like NCC-1701 the original looks like NCC-1701 the original looks like NCC-1701 the original Enterprise in the back there. Enterprise in the back there. Enterprise in the back there. Which I would assume that means that Which I would assume that means that Which I would assume that means that you're a trekker or a trekky. you're a trekker or a trekky. you're a trekker or a trekky. >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> And it's worth noting of course that you >> And it's worth noting of course that you >> And it's worth noting of course that you know, Richard Daystrom was in the know, Richard Daystrom was in the know, Richard Daystrom was in the original series.

original series. original series. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> One of the one of the chief geniuses >> One of the one of the chief geniuses >> One of the one of the chief geniuses that was compared to Einstein. He's that was compared to Einstein. He's that was compared to Einstein. He's compared to you know, he basically compared to you know, he basically compared to you know, he basically created like all the computers in the created like all the computers in the created like all the computers in the 23rd century and he did it when he was 23rd century and he did it when he was 23rd century and he did it when he was in his mid-20s. in his mid-20s. in his mid-20s. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Was it so important to see that when you >> Was it so important to see that when you >> Was it so important to see that when you were growing up and just say yep, I can were growing up and just say yep, I can were growing up and just say yep, I can do that too. do that too. do that too. >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. It was uh It was uh It was uh pivotal in in my pivotal in in my pivotal in in my you know, early development to see that you know, early development to see that you know, early development to see that strong you know, African well, not strong you know, African well, not strong you know, African well, not American American American you know, he was from some other planet you know, he was from some other planet you know, he was from some other planet >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> you know, by the 23rd century, but to >> you know, by the 23rd century, but to >> you know, by the 23rd century, but to see him represented see him represented see him represented and as you said Scott, you know, he and as you said Scott, you know, he and as you said Scott, you know, he architected architected architected you know, the the compute for Starfleet. you know, the the compute for Starfleet. you know, the the compute for Starfleet. >> Right. Basically the cloud. Starfleet's >> Right. Basically the cloud. Starfleet's >> Right. Basically the cloud. Starfleet's cloud. cloud. cloud. >> Right. Right. And so that was a powerful >> Right. Right. And so that was a powerful >> Right. Right. And so that was a powerful you know, inspiration for me you know, inspiration for me you know, inspiration for me as a as a young boy who was as a as a young boy who was as a as a young boy who was you know, looking to you know, kind of you know, looking to you know, kind of you know, looking to you know, kind of define define define what I wanted to do with with my life what I wanted to do with with my life what I wanted to do with with my life and both Tony Stark, and both Tony Stark, and both Tony Stark, T'Challa, Richard Daystrom, T'Challa, Richard Daystrom, T'Challa, Richard Daystrom, early inspirations early inspirations early inspirations for the career that I eventually for the career that I eventually for the career that I eventually embarked upon.

embarked upon. embarked upon. >> And you went to >> And you went to >> And you went to Carnegie Mellon for your undergrad and Carnegie Mellon for your undergrad and Carnegie Mellon for your undergrad and then you finished up with a masters from then you finished up with a masters from then you finished up with a masters from Stanford. Stanford. Stanford. >> Right. Yeah, so Carnegie Mellon um where >> Right. Yeah, so Carnegie Mellon um where >> Right. Yeah, so Carnegie Mellon um where I majored in uh mechanical engineering I majored in uh mechanical engineering I majored in uh mechanical engineering and got the the robotics bug there. Was and got the the robotics bug there. Was and got the the robotics bug there. Was uh in school when Three Mile Island uh in school when Three Mile Island uh in school when Three Mile Island happened. happened. happened. >> Oh, wow. >> Oh, wow. >> Oh, wow. >> And Carnegie Mellon >> And Carnegie Mellon >> And Carnegie Mellon uh one of the now emeriti professors, uh one of the now emeriti professors, uh one of the now emeriti professors, Red Whittaker, the father of field Red Whittaker, the father of field Red Whittaker, the father of field robotics, which is robotics, which is robotics, which is the uh practice of robotics, you know, the uh practice of robotics, you know, the uh practice of robotics, you know, in the environment, not in, you know, in the environment, not in, you know, in the environment, not in, you know, factories or very uh you know, factories or very uh you know, factories or very uh you know, controlled environments, controlled environments, controlled environments, uh was uh contacted by Westinghouse, the uh was uh contacted by Westinghouse, the uh was uh contacted by Westinghouse, the owner of Three Mile Island, to develop owner of Three Mile Island, to develop owner of Three Mile Island, to develop robotics to help characterize what was robotics to help characterize what was robotics to help characterize what was going on, you you know, at Three Mile going on, you you know, at Three Mile going on, you you know, at Three Mile Island to make sure uh you know, there Island to make sure uh you know, there Island to make sure uh you know, there were no radioactive were no radioactive were no radioactive leaks and to help remediate it. And so leaks and to help remediate it. And so leaks and to help remediate it. And so that was an early inspiration for the that was an early inspiration for the that was an early inspiration for the robotics that I did later in my career.

robotics that I did later in my career. robotics that I did later in my career. >> Yeah, because for context for folks that >> Yeah, because for context for folks that >> Yeah, because for context for folks that may not remember, Three Mile Island, may not remember, Three Mile Island, may not remember, Three Mile Island, 1979, was a partial meltdown, had 1979, was a partial meltdown, had 1979, was a partial meltdown, had minimal radiation release, but it minimal radiation release, but it minimal radiation release, but it changed how people felt and thought changed how people felt and thought changed how people felt and thought about nuclear. And then Chernobyl about nuclear. And then Chernobyl about nuclear. And then Chernobyl happens just 7 years later, except happens just 7 years later, except happens just 7 years later, except Chernobyl was not a partial meltdown, it Chernobyl was not a partial meltdown, it Chernobyl was not a partial meltdown, it was catastrophic. was catastrophic. was catastrophic. And it wasn't a pressurized water And it wasn't a pressurized water And it wasn't a pressurized water reactor, it was an RBMK uh reactor, it was an RBMK uh reactor, it was an RBMK uh graphic moderated reactor. graphic moderated reactor. graphic moderated reactor. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> At this point now, you're you're out of >> At this point now, you're you're out of >> At this point now, you're you're out of school? school? school? >> Yeah, I'm out of Carnegie Mellon. I I >> Yeah, I'm out of Carnegie Mellon. I I >> Yeah, I'm out of Carnegie Mellon. I I had already uh gotten a scholarship and had already uh gotten a scholarship and had already uh gotten a scholarship and had finished Stanford um had finished Stanford um had finished Stanford um in '88 uh with a masters of science in in '88 uh with a masters of science in in '88 uh with a masters of science in mechanical engineering mechanical engineering mechanical engineering where I concentrated in robotics and where I concentrated in robotics and where I concentrated in robotics and arms control because I was at the arms control because I was at the arms control because I was at the Lawrence Livermore National Lab. Um and Lawrence Livermore National Lab. Um and Lawrence Livermore National Lab. Um and so so so uh uh uh as you mentioned, Chernobyl happens, uh as you mentioned, Chernobyl happens, uh as you mentioned, Chernobyl happens, uh uh but fast forward to uh as they like uh but fast forward to uh as they like uh but fast forward to uh as they like to say when peace breaks out to say when peace breaks out to say when peace breaks out in the early '90s and the Soviet Union in the early '90s and the Soviet Union in the early '90s and the Soviet Union disintegrates, disintegrates, disintegrates, we as a we as a we as a government decide, and rightfully so, to government decide, and rightfully so, to government decide, and rightfully so, to you know, spend a few you know, spend a few you know, spend a few billion dollars more to help stabilize billion dollars more to help stabilize billion dollars more to help stabilize these newly independent states.

these newly independent states. these newly independent states. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And we wanted to engage um >> And we wanted to engage um >> And we wanted to engage um the Ukrainians the Ukrainians the Ukrainians um who in exchange for Western aid um um who in exchange for Western aid um um who in exchange for Western aid um sent all their nuclear weapons back to sent all their nuclear weapons back to sent all their nuclear weapons back to Russia Russia Russia and became uh for a brief period of time and became uh for a brief period of time and became uh for a brief period of time the number three recipient of US foreign the number three recipient of US foreign the number three recipient of US foreign aid behind Israel and Egypt. And I was aid behind Israel and Egypt. And I was aid behind Israel and Egypt. And I was part of that foreign aid in part of that foreign aid in part of that foreign aid in the mid-'90s, where I I went to Ukraine the mid-'90s, where I I went to Ukraine the mid-'90s, where I I went to Ukraine to um to um to um work with an institute that did the work with an institute that did the work with an institute that did the guidance and control for the Soviet guidance and control for the Soviet guidance and control for the Soviet ballistic missile force. ballistic missile force. ballistic missile force. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> So that they wouldn't um >> So that they wouldn't um >> So that they wouldn't um uh migrate to uh migrate to uh migrate to you know, rogue states back then, Iran, you know, rogue states back then, Iran, you know, rogue states back then, Iran, Iraq, North Korea. So we wanted to Iraq, North Korea. So we wanted to Iraq, North Korea. So we wanted to gainfully employ them on things of gainfully employ them on things of gainfully employ them on things of mutual interest. And when we got there, mutual interest. And when we got there, mutual interest. And when we got there, they said, "Hey, we need help with they said, "Hey, we need help with they said, "Hey, we need help with Chernobyl." And so that's how Chernobyl." And so that's how Chernobyl." And so that's how um um um I began working with the engineering I began working with the engineering I began working with the engineering team at Chernobyl on team at Chernobyl on team at Chernobyl on excuse me, how to stabilize and excuse me, how to stabilize and excuse me, how to stabilize and characterize the sarcophagus characterize the sarcophagus characterize the sarcophagus that was hastily built right after the that was hastily built right after the that was hastily built right after the accident.

accident. accident. >> Mhm. And the sarcophagus is this thing >> Mhm. And the sarcophagus is this thing >> Mhm. And the sarcophagus is this thing that goes around it. It's a containment that goes around it. It's a containment that goes around it. It's a containment zone, contain zone, contain zone, contain >> Right. Exactly. So it was hastily built >> Right. Exactly. So it was hastily built >> Right. Exactly. So it was hastily built right after the accident and it was right after the accident and it was right after the accident and it was crumbling and they feared a a secondary crumbling and they feared a a secondary crumbling and they feared a a secondary release of radioactive material, so they release of radioactive material, so they release of radioactive material, so they needed a robot to needed a robot to needed a robot to be able to go into the basement, uh be able to go into the basement, uh be able to go into the basement, uh specifically room 305 specifically room 305 specifically room 305 where it what was called the elephant's where it what was called the elephant's where it what was called the elephant's foot, which was a amalgam of uh, foot, which was a amalgam of uh, foot, which was a amalgam of uh, graphite, you know, the as you pointed graphite, you know, the as you pointed graphite, you know, the as you pointed out, you know, the fuel plus um, you out, you know, the fuel plus um, you out, you know, the fuel plus um, you know, the uh, know, the uh, know, the uh, uh, uh, uh, um, um, um, radioactive or a radiological absorbing radioactive or a radiological absorbing radioactive or a radiological absorbing material that helicopters dropped to material that helicopters dropped to material that helicopters dropped to help mitigate, you know, the uh, um, help mitigate, you know, the uh, um, help mitigate, you know, the uh, um, you know, reaction you know, reaction you know, reaction uh, uh, uh, you know, of the explosion that you know, of the explosion that you know, of the explosion that happened. And so, this is a amalgam of happened. And so, this is a amalgam of happened. And so, this is a amalgam of material that had solidified and you material that had solidified and you material that had solidified and you know, they needed to characterize, you know, they needed to characterize, you know, they needed to characterize, you know, what the know, what the know, what the uh, you know, the radiological um, uh, you know, the radiological um, uh, you know, the radiological um, you know, footprint, you know, both you know, footprint, you know, both you know, footprint, you know, both virtually and figuratively virtually and figuratively virtually and figuratively uh, uh, uh, uh, was. And so, they robot to get into uh, was. And so, they robot to get into uh, was. And so, they robot to get into this room. So, we we helped uh, this room. So, we we helped uh, this room. So, we we helped uh, you know, design that uh, with help from you know, design that uh, with help from you know, design that uh, with help from Professor Whittaker and his spin-off Professor Whittaker and his spin-off Professor Whittaker and his spin-off company called Red Zone that did the company called Red Zone that did the company called Red Zone that did the robots for Three Mile Island.

robots for Three Mile Island. robots for Three Mile Island. >> Right. So, Red Zone comes up with a an >> Right. So, Red Zone comes up with a an >> Right. So, Red Zone comes up with a an agreement between Lawrence Livermore agreement between Lawrence Livermore agreement between Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory and NASA National Laboratory and NASA National Laboratory and NASA and the DOE and Chernobyl. This is all and the DOE and Chernobyl. This is all and the DOE and Chernobyl. This is all these groups working together back when these groups working together back when these groups working together back when everyone back when everyone could work everyone back when everyone could work everyone back when everyone could work together. together. together. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> And said, this is a problem. We got to >> And said, this is a problem. We got to >> And said, this is a problem. We got to do this. But, you can't get anywhere do this. But, you can't get anywhere do this. But, you can't get anywhere near it as a human. near it as a human. near it as a human. What does radiation do as a robot to a What does radiation do as a robot to a What does radiation do as a robot to a robot? Is it a processor issue? Is it robot? Is it a processor issue? Is it robot? Is it a processor issue? Is it cameras? Is it wiring? cameras? Is it wiring? cameras? Is it wiring? >> Yeah, so it kind of all of the above. It >> Yeah, so it kind of all of the above. It >> Yeah, so it kind of all of the above. It it it embrittles um, uh, it it embrittles um, uh, it it embrittles um, uh, uh, you know, elastomers and and also uh, you know, elastomers and and also uh, you know, elastomers and and also has a an an effect on electronics. And has a an an effect on electronics. And has a an an effect on electronics. And so, one of the unique things uh, you so, one of the unique things uh, you so, one of the unique things uh, you know, that we did for the robot was make know, that we did for the robot was make know, that we did for the robot was make it modular in the sense that uh, it modular in the sense that uh, it modular in the sense that uh, components could be unplugged and you components could be unplugged and you components could be unplugged and you know, then decontaminated. But, the the know, then decontaminated. But, the the know, then decontaminated. But, the the key, you know, design feature was that key, you know, design feature was that key, you know, design feature was that we made it tethered so that most of the we made it tethered so that most of the we made it tethered so that most of the electronics were offboard and you know, electronics were offboard and you know, electronics were offboard and you know, the robot just got signals. Um and so the robot just got signals. Um and so the robot just got signals. Um and so there was a control panel and so we you there was a control panel and so we you there was a control panel and so we you know, this is well before know, this is well before know, this is well before um you know, more robust kind of um you know, more robust kind of um you know, more robust kind of wireless technologies and so the the wireless technologies and so the the wireless technologies and so the the robot was tethered robot was tethered robot was tethered the tether was structural meaning it you the tether was structural meaning it you the tether was structural meaning it you know, if the robot failed it had enough know, if the robot failed it had enough know, if the robot failed it had enough strength that you could you know, pull strength that you could you know, pull strength that you could you know, pull the tether and then pull the robot out the tether and then pull the robot out the tether and then pull the robot out um and another um and another um and another key design feature was we polished lead

key design feature was we polished lead key design feature was we polished lead to optical quality so that the CCD to optical quality so that the CCD to optical quality so that the CCD cameras would not have to look directly cameras would not have to look directly cameras would not have to look directly into the solid angle of into the solid angle of into the solid angle of you know, radiation and then cause the you know, radiation and then cause the you know, radiation and then cause the CCD pixels to ionize and so yeah, so CCD pixels to ionize and so yeah, so CCD pixels to ionize and so yeah, so this this this the CCDs were off axis you know, looking the CCDs were off axis you know, looking the CCDs were off axis you know, looking at at at you know, reflection where you know, you know, reflection where you know, you know, reflection where you know, lead would would shield lead would would shield lead would would shield so it'd only get the optical so it'd only get the optical so it'd only get the optical >> So you bounced you bounced it off of a >> So you bounced you bounced it off of a >> So you bounced you bounced it off of a lead mirror. lead mirror. lead mirror. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Wow, it's like pinhole cameras or how >> Wow, it's like pinhole cameras or how >> Wow, it's like pinhole cameras or how you know, you know, you know, interesting interesting. Would you interesting interesting. Would you interesting interesting. Would you consider Pioneer this robot a robot or a consider Pioneer this robot a robot or a consider Pioneer this robot a robot or a remotely operated machine? remotely operated machine? remotely operated machine? >> Teleoperated, yeah. >> Teleoperated, yeah. >> Teleoperated, yeah. >> Teleoperated, okay. >> Teleoperated, okay. >> Teleoperated, okay. >> Yeah, so that's how >> Yeah, so that's how >> Yeah, so that's how I'd characterize it. I'd characterize it. I'd characterize it. The only thing that was automated was The only thing that was automated was The only thing that was automated was the vision system that NASA developed to the vision system that NASA developed to the vision system that NASA developed to map the room and so you didn't have to map the room and so you didn't have to map the room and so you didn't have to manually manually manually actuate actuate actuate the vision head.

the vision head. the vision head. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> You know, it could automatically survey >> You know, it could automatically survey >> You know, it could automatically survey the room and create a 3D map. the room and create a 3D map. the room and create a 3D map. >> Mhm. There's a bunch of funny people >> Mhm. There's a bunch of funny people >> Mhm. There's a bunch of funny people online that are looking at like the moon online that are looking at like the moon online that are looking at like the moon footage and now the Mars footage, and footage and now the Mars footage, and footage and now the Mars footage, and they make the comment that we have these they make the comment that we have these they make the comment that we have these better cameras on our iPhones now than better cameras on our iPhones now than better cameras on our iPhones now than we, you know, we ever had when we were we, you know, we ever had when we were we, you know, we ever had when we were off in in in space. And they've also off in in in space. And they've also off in in in space. And they've also noted that the Loch Ness Monster and noted that the Loch Ness Monster and noted that the Loch Ness Monster and Bigfoot and all of these things that we Bigfoot and all of these things that we Bigfoot and all of these things that we want to see have never shown up since want to see have never shown up since want to see have never shown up since everybody got a 4K camera in their everybody got a 4K camera in their everybody got a 4K camera in their hands. Tell me about the camera hands. Tell me about the camera hands. Tell me about the camera technology. What are we looking at here? technology. What are we looking at here? technology. What are we looking at here? Is it analog? Is it low resolution? Are Is it analog? Is it low resolution? Are Is it analog? Is it low resolution? Are you able to see what's going on? you able to see what's going on? you able to see what's going on? >> Yeah, so it was low resolution. Yeah, so >> Yeah, so it was low resolution. Yeah, so >> Yeah, so it was low resolution. Yeah, so think about it. You know, this is, you think about it. You know, this is, you think about it. You know, this is, you know, 19 know, 19 know, 19 uh early '90s technology. Um uh early '90s technology. Um uh early '90s technology. Um uh uh uh and uh yeah, nowhere near, you know, 4K and uh yeah, nowhere near, you know, 4K and uh yeah, nowhere near, you know, 4K resolution. Um and and the other thing resolution. Um and and the other thing resolution. Um and and the other thing that happened was once we delivered the that happened was once we delivered the that happened was once we delivered the robot, the Ukrainian government said, robot, the Ukrainian government said, robot, the Ukrainian government said, you know, you know, you know, all the data at Chernobyl is a all the data at Chernobyl is a all the data at Chernobyl is a uh uh uh is is is classified by the state.

classified by the state. classified by the state. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Oh no. >> Oh no. >> Oh no. >> And so, >> And so, >> And so, that's one of the, you know, that's one of the, you know, that's one of the, you know, disappointments that, you know, the data disappointments that, you know, the data disappointments that, you know, the data was never shared with NASA was never shared with NASA was never shared with NASA because one of the attractants for NASA because one of the attractants for NASA because one of the attractants for NASA to even join the project was to even join the project was to even join the project was they wanted an analog for an they wanted an analog for an they wanted an analog for an interplanetary environment, interplanetary environment, interplanetary environment, you know, because they go to Mars, and you know, because they go to Mars, and you know, because they go to Mars, and and this is, you know, still to this and this is, you know, still to this and this is, you know, still to this date, you know, the world's worst date, you know, the world's worst date, you know, the world's worst nuclear accident. So, this was an analog nuclear accident. So, this was an analog nuclear accident. So, this was an analog for an interplanetary environment, and for an interplanetary environment, and for an interplanetary environment, and they wanted the the data, which they wanted the the data, which they wanted the the data, which unfortunately they they never got. unfortunately they they never got. unfortunately they they never got. >> Hmm. >> Hmm. >> Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The So, even now, is that you can't get The So, even now, is that you can't get The So, even now, is that you can't get them on the corn and get that data back? them on the corn and get that data back? them on the corn and get that data back? >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Um so, >> Um so, >> Um so, let let's fast forward to the outbreak let let's fast forward to the outbreak let let's fast forward to the outbreak of the of the of the you know, Ukraine-Russia conflict. you know, Ukraine-Russia conflict. you know, Ukraine-Russia conflict. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> I'm sitting in the Pentagon, you know, >> I'm sitting in the Pentagon, you know, >> I'm sitting in the Pentagon, you know, in my position, uh you know, as in my position, uh you know, as in my position, uh you know, as assistant secretary uh for critical assistant secretary uh for critical assistant secretary uh for critical technology, and I get a message on my technology, and I get a message on my technology, and I get a message on my LinkedIn profile.

LinkedIn profile. LinkedIn profile. >> Oh, wow. >> Oh, wow. >> Oh, wow. >> Cuz that's the only social media I'm on >> Cuz that's the only social media I'm on >> Cuz that's the only social media I'm on from the people who I used to work with from the people who I used to work with from the people who I used to work with at Chernobyl. at Chernobyl. at Chernobyl. And they're like, "Help. The Russians And they're like, "Help. The Russians And they're like, "Help. The Russians have come and have damaged our have come and have damaged our have come and have damaged our equipment. We need help." And so what I equipment. We need help." And so what I equipment. We need help." And so what I was able to do was put them in touch was able to do was put them in touch was able to do was put them in touch with with with a Department of Energy nuclear safety a Department of Energy nuclear safety a Department of Energy nuclear safety working group working group working group because the Russians had taken over because the Russians had taken over because the Russians had taken over Zaporizhzhia, if people remember. Zaporizhzhia, if people remember. Zaporizhzhia, if people remember. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Um >> Um >> Um which is Europe's, you know, biggest which is Europe's, you know, biggest which is Europe's, you know, biggest nuclear power plant. They had taken it nuclear power plant. They had taken it nuclear power plant. They had taken it over and were lobbing shells at the over and were lobbing shells at the over and were lobbing shells at the Ukrainians because they knew the Ukrainians because they knew the Ukrainians because they knew the Ukrainians couldn't retaliate because it Ukrainians couldn't retaliate because it Ukrainians couldn't retaliate because it was a nuclear site. And so was a nuclear site. And so was a nuclear site. And so uh anyway, the Russians are at Chernobyl uh anyway, the Russians are at Chernobyl uh anyway, the Russians are at Chernobyl uh uh uh busting busting busting you know, I I won't swear. you know, I I won't swear. you know, I I won't swear. >> Busting stuff up. >> Busting stuff up. >> Busting stuff up. >> Uh and uh and so what I did is I put >> Uh and uh and so what I did is I put >> Uh and uh and so what I did is I put them in touch with this nuclear safety them in touch with this nuclear safety them in touch with this nuclear safety group who was able to get them computers group who was able to get them computers group who was able to get them computers and other things to help them monitor and other things to help them monitor and other things to help them monitor the condition of the condition of the condition of uh the the new sarcophagus, which I uh the the new sarcophagus, which I uh the the new sarcophagus, which I think was completed, you know, probably think was completed, you know, probably think was completed, you know, probably less than a decade ago now by um less than a decade ago now by um less than a decade ago now by um um the European Bank for Reconstruction.

um the European Bank for Reconstruction. um the European Bank for Reconstruction. Um so they put a you know, large like Um so they put a you know, large like Um so they put a you know, large like hammer type structure over Chernobyl hammer type structure over Chernobyl hammer type structure over Chernobyl unit four. But then the Russians like unit four. But then the Russians like unit four. But then the Russians like attacked it and flew a drone into it and attacked it and flew a drone into it and attacked it and flew a drone into it and caused it you know, put a hole in it. caused it you know, put a hole in it. caused it you know, put a hole in it. >> Oh. >> Oh. >> Oh. >> So, yeah. So before this conflict broke >> So, yeah. So before this conflict broke >> So, yeah. So before this conflict broke broke out, they had contacted me because broke out, they had contacted me because broke out, they had contacted me because they wanted help designing robots that they wanted help designing robots that they wanted help designing robots that would be gantry like to disassemble the would be gantry like to disassemble the would be gantry like to disassemble the original sarcophagus and original sarcophagus and original sarcophagus and uh uh uh size reduced the the nuclear fuel. size reduced the the nuclear fuel. size reduced the the nuclear fuel. >> Wow. Wow. >> Wow. Wow. >> Wow. Wow. Um in in your role now, like are you Um in in your role now, like are you Um in in your role now, like are you connected to these things? Is it one of connected to these things? Is it one of connected to these things? Is it one of those things where with with all due those things where with with all due those things where with with all due respect, there's like aging people in respect, there's like aging people in respect, there's like aging people in this area that know stuff and when when this area that know stuff and when when this area that know stuff and when when I'm gone, when you're gone, who's going I'm gone, when you're gone, who's going I'm gone, when you're gone, who's going to know these things? to know these things? to know these things? >> Yeah. Um yeah, so great question. You >> Yeah. Um yeah, so great question. You >> Yeah. Um yeah, so great question. You know, I have you know, my own little LLC know, I have you know, my own little LLC know, I have you know, my own little LLC that uh that uh that uh you know, I strategically advise you know, I strategically advise you know, I strategically advise companies that have technologies that companies that have technologies that companies that have technologies that were germane to my old portfolio. Um were germane to my old portfolio. Um were germane to my old portfolio. Um uh and you know, I just from afar uh uh and you know, I just from afar uh uh and you know, I just from afar uh keep tabs on, you know, what's going on keep tabs on, you know, what's going on keep tabs on, you know, what's going on in the the Russia-Ukraine conflict. So, in the the Russia-Ukraine conflict. So, in the the Russia-Ukraine conflict. So, I haven't uh I haven't uh I haven't uh uh closed the loop with any of the the uh closed the loop with any of the the uh closed the loop with any of the the people, you know, back at Chernobyl. Um people, you know, back at Chernobyl. Um people, you know, back at Chernobyl. Um you know, the Russians eventually, you you know, the Russians eventually, you you know, the Russians eventually, you know, kind of left because um they were

know, kind of left because um they were know, kind of left because um they were they were getting irradiated. they were getting irradiated. they were getting irradiated. >> Yeah, I mean, nobody wants to be near >> Yeah, I mean, nobody wants to be near >> Yeah, I mean, nobody wants to be near there right now. there right now. there right now. >> and uh and so they left. So, I think >> and uh and so they left. So, I think >> and uh and so they left. So, I think that the situation there has has that the situation there has has that the situation there has has stabilized and I think they, you know, stabilized and I think they, you know, stabilized and I think they, you know, patched the hole in the in the roof uh patched the hole in the in the roof uh patched the hole in the in the roof uh and and so uh and and so uh and and so uh that's as uh you know, good as we can uh that's as uh you know, good as we can uh that's as uh you know, good as we can uh you know, expect right now. you know, expect right now. you know, expect right now. >> Um pivoting a little bit, you helped >> Um pivoting a little bit, you helped >> Um pivoting a little bit, you helped establish the original Defense establish the original Defense establish the original Defense Innovation Unit Experimental, which was Innovation Unit Experimental, which was Innovation Unit Experimental, which was intended to connect the Pentagon with intended to connect the Pentagon with intended to connect the Pentagon with commercial technology companies. And as commercial technology companies. And as commercial technology companies. And as a as a civilian myself who is often a as a civilian myself who is often a as a civilian myself who is often talking to startups, I feel sometimes talking to startups, I feel sometimes talking to startups, I feel sometimes like founders and startup people, they like founders and startup people, they like founders and startup people, they get stars in their eyes and they go, get stars in their eyes and they go, get stars in their eyes and they go, "Oh, our product works. We should get "Oh, our product works. We should get "Oh, our product works. We should get the Pentagon to buy it." the Pentagon to buy it." the Pentagon to buy it." I'm I'm curious what founders I'm I'm curious what founders I'm I'm curious what founders misunderstand when they have that that misunderstand when they have that that misunderstand when they have that that level of ignorance. level of ignorance. level of ignorance. >> Sure. Um >> Sure. Um >> Sure. Um so, back in 2015, then Secretary Ash so, back in 2015, then Secretary Ash so, back in 2015, then Secretary Ash Carter gave a speech at Stanford called Carter gave a speech at Stanford called Carter gave a speech at Stanford called Rewiring the Pentagon. And and in that Rewiring the Pentagon. And and in that Rewiring the Pentagon. And and in that speech, you know, he he rightly, speech, you know, he he rightly, speech, you know, he he rightly, uh, uh, uh, pointed out that, pointed out that, pointed out that, you know, the global market, um, you know, the global market, um, you know, the global market, um, uh, the adjustable market, you know, was uh, the adjustable market, you know, was uh, the adjustable market, you know, was driving innovation, driving innovation, driving innovation, uh, and, you know, the Defense uh, and, you know, the Defense uh, and, you know, the Defense Department, who used to be, uh, a big Department, who used to be, uh, a big Department, who used to be, uh, a big customer, was now a niche customer and customer, was now a niche customer and customer, was now a niche customer and needed to first and fast follow needed to first and fast follow needed to first and fast follow industry.

industry. industry. Um, and so, he wanted to create this Um, and so, he wanted to create this Um, and so, he wanted to create this Defense Innovation Unit to do just that. Defense Innovation Unit to do just that. Defense Innovation Unit to do just that. So, I spent the summer of 2015 talking So, I spent the summer of 2015 talking So, I spent the summer of 2015 talking to my former colleagues out here in to my former colleagues out here in to my former colleagues out here in Silicon Valley about what would bring Silicon Valley about what would bring Silicon Valley about what would bring them in, uh, to work with the them in, uh, to work with the them in, uh, to work with the government. And to your earlier point, government. And to your earlier point, government. And to your earlier point, Scott, about, uh, Scott, about, uh, Scott, about, uh, what, um, what, um, what, um, founders sometimes miss is, um, founders sometimes miss is, um, founders sometimes miss is, um, what is the, um, what is the, um, what is the, um, military problem that you're solving. military problem that you're solving. military problem that you're solving. And so, one of the things that we, uh, And so, one of the things that we, uh, And so, one of the things that we, uh, learned in doing a survey of other, learned in doing a survey of other, learned in doing a survey of other, um, similar institutions, you know, um, similar institutions, you know, um, similar institutions, you know, In-Q-Tel has been in the Valley for, you In-Q-Tel has been in the Valley for, you In-Q-Tel has been in the Valley for, you know, kind of decades before DIU. And know, kind of decades before DIU. And know, kind of decades before DIU. And their secret sauce was being able to their secret sauce was being able to their secret sauce was being able to write unclassified problem statements write unclassified problem statements write unclassified problem statements for classified intelligence community for classified intelligence community for classified intelligence community problems. And so, this is one of the problems. And so, this is one of the problems. And so, this is one of the things that that things that that things that that we adopted, um, we adopted, um, we adopted, um, uh, uh, uh, on at on the DIU side is we, uh, on at on the DIU side is we, uh, on at on the DIU side is we, uh, took military, took military, took military, you know, bespoke military problems and, you know, bespoke military problems and, you know, bespoke military problems and, uh, and wrote what we call commercial uh, and wrote what we call commercial uh, and wrote what we call commercial solutions offerings. So, we would put a solutions offerings. So, we would put a solutions offerings. So, we would put a problem statement, an unclassified problem statement, an unclassified problem statement, an unclassified problem statement, and and this is still problem statement, and and this is still problem statement, and and this is still the case, you know, with DIU now, on the case, you know, with DIU now, on the case, you know, with DIU now, on uh you know, the website uh you know, the website uh you know, the website and open it up to industry, you know, to

and open it up to industry, you know, to and open it up to industry, you know, to startups. startups. startups. And and so, rather than And and so, rather than And and so, rather than uh to your earlier point about a company uh to your earlier point about a company uh to your earlier point about a company saying, "Hey, you know, the military saying, "Hey, you know, the military saying, "Hey, you know, the military should buy this." should buy this." should buy this." Um companies can now look at a problem Um companies can now look at a problem Um companies can now look at a problem statement and then develop technology or statement and then develop technology or statement and then develop technology or change, you know, a given technology or change, you know, a given technology or change, you know, a given technology or system to solve that uh system to solve that uh system to solve that uh you know, very specific problem you know, very specific problem you know, very specific problem statement that the commercial solutions statement that the commercial solutions statement that the commercial solutions offering is um offering is um offering is um is is stating. And so, we So, DIU has or is is stating. And so, we So, DIU has or is is stating. And so, we So, DIU has or had, you know, liaison officers from all had, you know, liaison officers from all had, you know, liaison officers from all the services who knew the services who knew the services who knew um you know, from their um you know, from their um you know, from their you know, [clears throat] you know, [clears throat] you know, [clears throat] from big army or big navy or big air from big army or big navy or big air from big army or big navy or big air force, force, force, uh what problems they would like uh what problems they would like uh what problems they would like industry to solve. And and so, they industry to solve. And and so, they industry to solve. And and so, they would uh would uh would uh then uh be able to then uh be able to then uh be able to put these commercial solutions offerings put these commercial solutions offerings put these commercial solutions offerings out and then, like Shark Tank, out and then, like Shark Tank, out and then, like Shark Tank, uh uh uh get pitches from from these companies, get pitches from from these companies, get pitches from from these companies, you know, and then shortlist them and you know, and then shortlist them and you know, and then shortlist them and then get them under contract. And that then get them under contract. And that then get them under contract. And that was one of the things that my was one of the things that my was one of the things that my former Silicon Valley colleagues told me former Silicon Valley colleagues told me former Silicon Valley colleagues told me was, "Hey, we need to get these people was, "Hey, we need to get these people was, "Hey, we need to get these people under contract, not under contract, not under contract, not on a year time scale, but, you know, on a year time scale, but, you know, on a year time scale, but, you know, within uh weeks uh two months at the at within uh weeks uh two months at the at within uh weeks uh two months at the at the most, because you got to move at the the most, because you got to move at the the most, because you got to move at the speed of speed of speed of you know, Silicon Valley business."

you know, Silicon Valley business." you know, Silicon Valley business." >> Right. Now, you've described uh that >> Right. Now, you've described uh that >> Right. Now, you've described uh that products go through kind of three products go through kind of three products go through kind of three processes and there's three potential processes and there's three potential processes and there's three potential what you call valleys of death, places what you call valleys of death, places what you call valleys of death, places where things stop. Going from the lab to where things stop. Going from the lab to where things stop. Going from the lab to a prototype, that's a moment where you a prototype, that's a moment where you a prototype, that's a moment where you can screw it up and it's over. From can screw it up and it's over. From can screw it up and it's over. From prototype to product, and then from prototype to product, and then from prototype to product, and then from product to scaled production to actually product to scaled production to actually product to scaled production to actually happening. And then your advisory work happening. And then your advisory work happening. And then your advisory work is focused on, you know, crossing that is focused on, you know, crossing that is focused on, you know, crossing that that gap. that gap. that gap. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> How often do do companies just fall >> How often do do companies just fall >> How often do do companies just fall directly into that valley of death? It's directly into that valley of death? It's directly into that valley of death? It's like, "Hey, we're in the lab, but it's like, "Hey, we're in the lab, but it's like, "Hey, we're in the lab, but it's not not not >> But it's not it's not not going to be >> But it's not it's not not going to be >> But it's not it's not not going to be production. production. production. >> Right. Uh yeah, so very often and and >> Right. Uh yeah, so very often and and >> Right. Uh yeah, so very often and and the Defense Department, you know, has the Defense Department, you know, has the Defense Department, you know, has recognized this and recognized this and recognized this and uh uh uh and when I was in office, we stood up and when I was in office, we stood up and when I was in office, we stood up the Office of Strategic Capital, which the Office of Strategic Capital, which the Office of Strategic Capital, which is the only group in the Defense is the only group in the Defense is the only group in the Defense Department that is doing loans. Department that is doing loans. Department that is doing loans. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> [clears throat] >> And so, they loan companies that have >> And so, they loan companies that have >> And so, they loan companies that have capital-intensive capital-intensive capital-intensive projects um projects um projects um uh funds to uh funds to uh funds to help them bridge, you know, those help them bridge, you know, those help them bridge, you know, those valleys of death that you described um valleys of death that you described um valleys of death that you described um from from from uh uh uh you know, lab to prototype or from you know, lab to prototype or from you know, lab to prototype or from prototype to to product um and then, you prototype to to product um and then, you prototype to to product um and then, you know, know, know, uh product to to scale. So, uh product to to scale. So, uh product to to scale. So, um yeah, so there's a whole suite of, um yeah, so there's a whole suite of, um yeah, so there's a whole suite of, you know, government programs, you know, you know, government programs, you know, you know, government programs, you know, the Small Business uh the Small Business uh the Small Business uh Innovation Research Grants, also known Innovation Research Grants, also known Innovation Research Grants, also known as SBIR, and they're they're phased, you as SBIR, and they're they're phased, you as SBIR, and they're they're phased, you know, from one through three, and the know, from one through three, and the know, from one through three, and the dollars amount go from six figures to,

dollars amount go from six figures to, dollars amount go from six figures to, you know, seven figures. you know, seven figures. you know, seven figures. Um And, you know, there's DIU, uh you Um And, you know, there's DIU, uh you Um And, you know, there's DIU, uh you know, as as a funding source. know, as as a funding source. know, as as a funding source. Um Um Um there are all the software labs, you there are all the software labs, you there are all the software labs, you know, AFWERX and SOFWERX. Um so, there's know, AFWERX and SOFWERX. Um so, there's know, AFWERX and SOFWERX. Um so, there's a a myriad of um a a myriad of um a a myriad of um you know, funding mechanisms to help you know, funding mechanisms to help you know, funding mechanisms to help companies bridge those various valleys companies bridge those various valleys companies bridge those various valleys of death. of death. of death. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. And um now we're in a moment where we've And um now we're in a moment where we've And um now we're in a moment where we've got cheap drones, got cheap drones, got cheap drones, arguably cheap and on the edge AI, arguably cheap and on the edge AI, arguably cheap and on the edge AI, theoretically small you know, small and theoretically small you know, small and theoretically small you know, small and medium-size language models that could medium-size language models that could medium-size language models that could even run on a drone. even run on a drone. even run on a drone. Uh you worked on a tethered Uh you worked on a tethered Uh you worked on a tethered tele-operated tele-operated tele-operated robot. robot. robot. Now one, if one wanted to, has the the Now one, if one wanted to, has the the Now one, if one wanted to, has the the LEGO pieces available to make a drone. I LEGO pieces available to make a drone. I LEGO pieces available to make a drone. I could do it myself in a weekend. I could could do it myself in a weekend. I could could do it myself in a weekend. I could make a drone that could do something bad make a drone that could do something bad make a drone that could do something bad and make it autonomous and send it over and make it autonomous and send it over and make it autonomous and send it over anywhere. Uh you've called these anywhere. Uh you've called these anywhere. Uh you've called these high-stakes AI and you've got some high-stakes AI and you've got some high-stakes AI and you've got some strong opinions about what we what we strong opinions about what we what we strong opinions about what we what we should do about these things. We need should do about these things. We need should do about these things. We need receipts.

receipts. receipts. >> Right. Um yeah, so >> Right. Um yeah, so >> Right. Um yeah, so these drones yeah, have changed uh these drones yeah, have changed uh these drones yeah, have changed uh uh you know, warfare and you know, when uh you know, warfare and you know, when uh you know, warfare and you know, when I was in office uh and getting you know, I was in office uh and getting you know, I was in office uh and getting you know, my regular intelligence briefs uh you my regular intelligence briefs uh you my regular intelligence briefs uh you know, we would see know, we would see know, we would see you know these uh one-way attack drones you know these uh one-way attack drones you know these uh one-way attack drones essentially you know, almost essentially you know, almost essentially you know, almost single-handedly obsolating armor as a single-handedly obsolating armor as a single-handedly obsolating armor as a um you know a vehicle of a maneuver. um you know a vehicle of a maneuver. um you know a vehicle of a maneuver. Uh and so in unless uh you know, you had Uh and so in unless uh you know, you had Uh and so in unless uh you know, you had you know, some very um robust uh you you know, some very um robust uh you you know, some very um robust uh you know, cages and and know, cages and and know, cages and and well, even the explosive uh armor uh well, even the explosive uh armor uh well, even the explosive uh armor uh that protects you from side projectiles, that protects you from side projectiles, that protects you from side projectiles, you know, our Javelin system that you know, our Javelin system that you know, our Javelin system that you know, has a ballistic trajectory and you know, has a ballistic trajectory and you know, has a ballistic trajectory and goes straight down on the turret you goes straight down on the turret you goes straight down on the turret you know made that kind of protection know made that kind of protection know made that kind of protection obsolete. Um but you know, drones uh obsolete. Um but you know, drones uh obsolete. Um but you know, drones uh and and and the fact and and one of the things in in the fact and and one of the things in in the fact and and one of the things in in military um jargon, you know, quantity military um jargon, you know, quantity military um jargon, you know, quantity has a quality all of its own, right? And has a quality all of its own, right? And has a quality all of its own, right? And and so if you're able to saturate uh you and so if you're able to saturate uh you and so if you're able to saturate uh you know, an enemy's air defenses um know, an enemy's air defenses um know, an enemy's air defenses um have too many targets for an air defense have too many targets for an air defense have too many targets for an air defense radar to track um radar to track um radar to track um and and this is what you're seeing on and and this is what you're seeing on and and this is what you're seeing on both sides now. And uh

both sides now. And uh both sides now. And uh uh uh uh and you know, it's escalating and you know, it's escalating and you know, it's escalating >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> and you know, the counter systems uh >> and you know, the counter systems uh >> and you know, the counter systems uh you know, that are using you know, you know, that are using you know, you know, that are using you know, electronic jamming and so you're seeing electronic jamming and so you're seeing electronic jamming and so you're seeing a lot of tethered drones now that that a lot of tethered drones now that that a lot of tethered drones now that that are immune to that jamming because the are immune to that jamming because the are immune to that jamming because the signal is is going through the tether. signal is is going through the tether. signal is is going through the tether. Um and you know, it's not uh you know, Um and you know, it's not uh you know, Um and you know, it's not uh you know, going through going through going through you know, you know, you know, the electromagnetic spectrum where it the electromagnetic spectrum where it the electromagnetic spectrum where it could could be jammed. Uh and and so could could be jammed. Uh and and so could could be jammed. Uh and and so Like I said, it's it's Like I said, it's it's Like I said, it's it's it's evolving and and the US has it's evolving and and the US has it's evolving and and the US has recognized we're behind but you know, recognized we're behind but you know, recognized we're behind but you know, need to to catch up in in these need to to catch up in in these need to to catch up in in these attritable attritable attritable you know, assets. you know, assets. you know, assets. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. You know, but commercial companies and You know, but commercial companies and You know, but commercial companies and certainly in the world of in the in the certainly in the world of in the in the certainly in the world of in the in the world of AI the time of AI are moving world of AI the time of AI are moving world of AI the time of AI are moving extremely quickly. extremely quickly. extremely quickly. And it's very much a move fast and break And it's very much a move fast and break And it's very much a move fast and break things situation. things situation. things situation. Uh certainly offense gets to move fast Uh certainly offense gets to move fast Uh certainly offense gets to move fast and break things. But is it fair to say and break things. But is it fair to say and break things. But is it fair to say that defense systems demand assurance?

that defense systems demand assurance? that defense systems demand assurance? And there's a certain amount of caution And there's a certain amount of caution And there's a certain amount of caution that needs to be that needs to be that needs to be you know, put together before something you know, put together before something you know, put together before something is deployed. How do you how do we is deployed. How do you how do we is deployed. How do you how do we balance that? Like things are moving so balance that? Like things are moving so balance that? Like things are moving so fast but we really need them to not move fast but we really need them to not move fast but we really need them to not move fast. fast. fast. >> Well, um we have to >> Well, um we have to >> Well, um we have to be comfortable with iterating. be comfortable with iterating. be comfortable with iterating. And so you know, in Silicon Valley they And so you know, in Silicon Valley they And so you know, in Silicon Valley they iterate you know, on the software side. iterate you know, on the software side. iterate you know, on the software side. And and what you know, SpaceX has been And and what you know, SpaceX has been And and what you know, SpaceX has been able to pioneer is you know, that fail able to pioneer is you know, that fail able to pioneer is you know, that fail fast and then iterate and you know, you fast and then iterate and you know, you fast and then iterate and you know, you can look at the timeline of you know, can look at the timeline of you know, can look at the timeline of you know, the the the evolution you know, of their of their evolution you know, of their of their evolution you know, of their of their engines you know, for the Falcon 9 you engines you know, for the Falcon 9 you engines you know, for the Falcon 9 you know, from a know, from a know, from a part count to you know, where they part count to you know, where they part count to you know, where they started and to you know, where they are started and to you know, where they are started and to you know, where they are now now now and you know, it's it's remarkable. And and you know, it's it's remarkable. And and you know, it's it's remarkable. And so we have to be comfortable with so we have to be comfortable with so we have to be comfortable with iterating uh, you know, at speed and not iterating uh, you know, at speed and not iterating uh, you know, at speed and not having, you know, waiting for the 100% having, you know, waiting for the 100% having, you know, waiting for the 100% solution, but being satisfied with the solution, but being satisfied with the solution, but being satisfied with the 80% 80% 80% solution.

solution. solution. >> Yeah, but then of course, you get back >> Yeah, but then of course, you get back >> Yeah, but then of course, you get back into the valley of death in the sense of into the valley of death in the sense of into the valley of death in the sense of the 80% solution may be very, uh, the 80% solution may be very, uh, the 80% solution may be very, uh, inappropriate 20% of the time, right? inappropriate 20% of the time, right? inappropriate 20% of the time, right? >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, I'm I'm curious. I am So, I'm I'm curious. I am So, I'm I'm curious. I am I'm I'm 53 I'm I'm 53 I'm I'm 53 and I am overwhelmed with existing this and I am overwhelmed with existing this and I am overwhelmed with existing this long and looking back at when I started long and looking back at when I started long and looking back at when I started on a Commodore 64 in 1984 on a Commodore 64 in 1984 on a Commodore 64 in 1984 and now we have pocket supercomputers and now we have pocket supercomputers and now we have pocket supercomputers that talk to the world AI and, you know, that talk to the world AI and, you know, that talk to the world AI and, you know, like, I'm curious with even more like, I'm curious with even more like, I'm curious with even more historical context that you have. historical context that you have. historical context that you have. How often on a random Tuesday afternoon How often on a random Tuesday afternoon How often on a random Tuesday afternoon do you just kind of go, "Holy crap, I am do you just kind of go, "Holy crap, I am do you just kind of go, "Holy crap, I am living I'm living in the future." living I'm living in the future." living I'm living in the future." >> Yeah, I, >> Yeah, I, >> Yeah, I, you know, I have to pinch myself you know, I have to pinch myself you know, I have to pinch myself sometimes, sometimes, sometimes, to to say, you know, to to say, you know, to to say, you know, you know, you and I talked about this you know, you and I talked about this you know, you and I talked about this earlier, earlier, earlier, you know, the the Star Trek technology you know, the the Star Trek technology you know, the the Star Trek technology that was supposed to be 23rd century, that was supposed to be 23rd century, that was supposed to be 23rd century, you know, we have, you know, we have, you know, we have, you know, realized now, you know, the you know, realized now, you know, the you know, realized now, you know, the communicator is the cell phone, right?

communicator is the cell phone, right? communicator is the cell phone, right? You know, being able to talk to your You know, being able to talk to your You know, being able to talk to your computer, you know, like, you know, computer, you know, like, you know, computer, you know, like, you know, Spock and Scotty, you know, did in Spock and Scotty, you know, did in Spock and Scotty, you know, did in series. series. series. >> I always use that Star Trek 4 when >> I always use that Star Trek 4 when >> I always use that Star Trek 4 when they're going to save the whales and he they're going to save the whales and he they're going to save the whales and he sits down on the Macintosh and he's sits down on the Macintosh and he's sits down on the Macintosh and he's like, "Computer." like, "Computer." like, "Computer." >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> Oh, just use the keyboard. Oh, how >> Oh, just use the keyboard. Oh, how >> Oh, just use the keyboard. Oh, how quaint. quaint. quaint. >> Right. But now, we can do that. >> Right. But now, we can do that. >> Right. But now, we can do that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know, >> You know, >> You know, you know, we can voice prompt, you know, you know, we can voice prompt, you know, you know, we can voice prompt, you know, Claude and and chat GPT, Claude and and chat GPT, Claude and and chat GPT, and and so, and and so, and and so, yeah, so I'm excited, you know, that yeah, so I'm excited, you know, that yeah, so I'm excited, you know, that these technologies are, um, these technologies are, um, these technologies are, um, uh, you know, being realized and um uh, you know, being realized and um uh, you know, being realized and um and then you know, science fiction and then you know, science fiction and then you know, science fiction serves to serves to serves to you know, kind of um you know, kind of um you know, kind of um uh you know, be that engine of uh you know, be that engine of uh you know, be that engine of innovation. And and I remember uh you innovation. And and I remember uh you innovation. And and I remember uh you know, this is a know, this is a know, this is a and I don't remember what DARPA program and I don't remember what DARPA program and I don't remember what DARPA program uh so, uh so, uh so, you know, the uninitiated DARPA is the you know, the uninitiated DARPA is the you know, the uninitiated DARPA is the Defense Advanced Research Projects Defense Advanced Research Projects Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency Agency Agency um um um which uh which uh which uh gave us uh you know, the internet um gave us uh you know, the internet um gave us uh you know, the internet um which gave us uh you know, the GPS which gave us uh you know, the GPS which gave us uh you know, the GPS constellation constellation constellation uh that we depend on for navigation and uh that we depend on for navigation and uh that we depend on for navigation and and um and um and um uh and other things and you know, the uh and other things and you know, the uh and other things and you know, the miniaturization of uh miniaturization of uh miniaturization of uh you know, accelerometers that you know, you know, accelerometers that you know, you know, accelerometers that you know, tell you which way the gravity vector is tell you which way the gravity vector is tell you which way the gravity vector is pointing, you know, these small cameras

pointing, you know, these small cameras pointing, you know, these small cameras um but I remember a DARPA program um but I remember a DARPA program um but I remember a DARPA program manager um manager um manager um showing uh showing uh showing uh a clip from Minority Report. If if you a clip from Minority Report. If if you a clip from Minority Report. If if you if you remember if you remember if you remember um um um uh when uh when uh when Tom Cruise is trying to hide from Tom Cruise is trying to hide from Tom Cruise is trying to hide from you know, the pre-crime team and they you know, the pre-crime team and they you know, the pre-crime team and they put the spiders uh you know, under the put the spiders uh you know, under the put the spiders uh you know, under the doors doors doors >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> uh you know, and a program manager said >> uh you know, and a program manager said >> uh you know, and a program manager said I I want that. And so, um you know, so I I want that. And so, um you know, so I I want that. And so, um you know, so you think about it uh you think about it uh you think about it uh you know, these science fiction um you know, these science fiction um you know, these science fiction um uh you know, kind of concepts uh you uh you know, kind of concepts uh you uh you know, kind of concepts uh you know, help motivate the uh imaginations know, help motivate the uh imaginations know, help motivate the uh imaginations of uh of uh of uh you know, engineers and scientists and you know, engineers and scientists and you know, engineers and scientists and you know, obviously of the of the you know, obviously of the of the you know, obviously of the of the military um military um military um to look for um you know, things that to look for um you know, things that to look for um you know, things that would you know, help our would you know, help our would you know, help our uh you know, our our warfighters And so uh you know, our our warfighters And so uh you know, our our warfighters And so what, you know, DARPA does is buys buys what, you know, DARPA does is buys buys what, you know, DARPA does is buys buys down technical risk, you know, and you down technical risk, you know, and you down technical risk, you know, and you know, invest in things that are not yet know, invest in things that are not yet know, invest in things that are not yet commercially viable, but you know, have commercially viable, but you know, have commercially viable, but you know, have a military utility.

a military utility. a military utility. >> From a from a less military utility >> From a from a less military utility >> From a from a less military utility perspective and a human perspective, I perspective and a human perspective, I perspective and a human perspective, I could say that I am thrilled with my could say that I am thrilled with my could say that I am thrilled with my robot vacuum. robot vacuum. robot vacuum. I'm curious if you have robots in your I'm curious if you have robots in your I'm curious if you have robots in your house and what robots do you want in house and what robots do you want in house and what robots do you want in your house that you don't have yet. I your house that you don't have yet. I your house that you don't have yet. I feel like the clothes folding robot is feel like the clothes folding robot is feel like the clothes folding robot is the that's the next one. the that's the next one. the that's the next one. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Yeah, but you know, so I'm going to be a >> Yeah, but you know, so I'm going to be a >> Yeah, but you know, so I'm going to be a little contrarian here, you know, there little contrarian here, you know, there little contrarian here, you know, there are other people who, are other people who, are other people who, you know, in the robotics community, you you know, in the robotics community, you you know, in the robotics community, you know, may disagree and some may agree, know, may disagree and some may agree, know, may disagree and some may agree, but I think human humanoids are the but I think human humanoids are the but I think human humanoids are the wrong form factor. wrong form factor. wrong form factor. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Uh, [clears throat] for for home. >> Uh, [clears throat] for for home. >> Uh, [clears throat] for for home. So I So I So I I would qualify that to say, I would qualify that to say, I would qualify that to say, you know, the upper torso is, you know, the upper torso is, you know, the upper torso is, you know, so a torso with, you know, a you know, so a torso with, you know, a you know, so a torso with, you know, a six degree of freedom arm with, six degree of freedom arm with, six degree of freedom arm with, you know, at least three finger end you know, at least three finger end you know, at least three finger end effector. effector. effector. Uh, but uh, bipedal locomotion is really Uh, but uh, bipedal locomotion is really Uh, but uh, bipedal locomotion is really hard. Um, and hard. Um, and hard. Um, and I excuse me, I would point back to the I excuse me, I would point back to the I excuse me, I would point back to the DARPA Grand Challenge where DARPA Grand Challenge where DARPA Grand Challenge where um, it was used to replicate um, it was used to replicate um, it was used to replicate uh, the actions needed to um, mitigate uh, the actions needed to um, mitigate uh, the actions needed to um, mitigate what happened at Fukushima. So the the what happened at Fukushima. So the the what happened at Fukushima. So the the bipedal robot had to drive an ATV and bipedal robot had to drive an ATV and bipedal robot had to drive an ATV and get out, open a door, use a tool, um, get out, open a door, use a tool, um, get out, open a door, use a tool, um, open a valve, which was key in the open a valve, which was key in the open a valve, which was key in the Fukushima uh, scenario because they Fukushima uh, scenario because they Fukushima uh, scenario because they couldn't uh, couldn't uh, couldn't uh, you know, get the cooling water, you know, get the cooling water, you know, get the cooling water, you know, to, you know, the reactor

you know, to, you know, the reactor you know, to, you know, the reactor cores and so they had the explosions. cores and so they had the explosions. cores and so they had the explosions. Um, and so the the robot that won it had Um, and so the the robot that won it had Um, and so the the robot that won it had a um, a um, a um, you know, it was hybrid. It could walk, you know, it was hybrid. It could walk, you know, it was hybrid. It could walk, but it also had a wheeled um, base to but it also had a wheeled um, base to but it also had a wheeled um, base to allow it to go over, you know, kind of allow it to go over, you know, kind of allow it to go over, you know, kind of an an unstructured, you know, uneven an an unstructured, you know, uneven an an unstructured, you know, uneven terrain. And And so, in people's homes, terrain. And And so, in people's homes, terrain. And And so, in people's homes, you know, there are stairs and and you know, there are stairs and and you know, there are stairs and and things like that. And, you know, there things like that. And, you know, there things like that. And, you know, there was a robot that I worked with again in was a robot that I worked with again in was a robot that I worked with again in my Lawrence Livermore days, you know, my Lawrence Livermore days, you know, my Lawrence Livermore days, you know, called the PackBot. And called the PackBot. And called the PackBot. And its architecture, you know, the the its architecture, you know, the the its architecture, you know, the the remit from DARPA was "Hey, we want to remit from DARPA was "Hey, we want to remit from DARPA was "Hey, we want to replace the point person in a platoon replace the point person in a platoon replace the point person in a platoon because, you know, that person, you because, you know, that person, you because, you know, that person, you know, draws the fire and is, you know, know, draws the fire and is, you know, know, draws the fire and is, you know, the one that gets taken out at the base the one that gets taken out at the base the one that gets taken out at the base of a staircase." And so, the robot had of a staircase." And so, the robot had of a staircase." And so, the robot had to to to be able to climb stairs. And so, be able to climb stairs. And so, be able to climb stairs. And so, you know, the company that you know, the company that you know, the company that unfortunately, unfortunately, unfortunately, you know, went bankrupt recently, you know, went bankrupt recently, you know, went bankrupt recently, iRobot, iRobot, iRobot, developed the PackBot that had these developed the PackBot that had these developed the PackBot that had these folding um uh kind of treads that folding um uh kind of treads that folding um uh kind of treads that allowed the the robot to to climb allowed the the robot to to climb allowed the the robot to to climb stairs. Um and so, I think, you know, stairs. Um and so, I think, you know, stairs. Um and so, I think, you know, the the form factor that will be the the form factor that will be the the form factor that will be successful in a home is going to be, you successful in a home is going to be, you successful in a home is going to be, you know, a torso um know, a torso um know, a torso um with uh with uh with uh you know, like I said, the the same uh you know, like I said, the the same uh you know, like I said, the the same uh degrees of freedom as a as a human or or degrees of freedom as a as a human or or degrees of freedom as a as a human or or maybe even more. Um Uh

maybe even more. Um Uh maybe even more. Um Uh but, the base is going to have to be but, the base is going to have to be but, the base is going to have to be some hybrid of some hybrid of some hybrid of tracks and and wheels to get over uneven tracks and and wheels to get over uneven tracks and and wheels to get over uneven surfaces. surfaces. surfaces. >> Yeah, I think you're right. I think >> Yeah, I think you're right. I think >> Yeah, I think you're right. I think roboticists and ones that are insistent roboticists and ones that are insistent roboticists and ones that are insistent on humanoid robots uh need to understand on humanoid robots uh need to understand on humanoid robots uh need to understand that humans are funny-shaped things that humans are funny-shaped things that humans are funny-shaped things generated over billions of years of generated over billions of years of generated over billions of years of evolution, and we may not be the optimal evolution, and we may not be the optimal evolution, and we may not be the optimal shape. shape. shape. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Absolutely. Well, I could talk to you >> Absolutely. Well, I could talk to you >> Absolutely. Well, I could talk to you for hours. Uh you you are an absolute for hours. Uh you you are an absolute for hours. Uh you you are an absolute joy. I would encourage people to check joy. I would encourage people to check joy. I would encourage people to check out your website at maynardholiday.com. out your website at maynardholiday.com. out your website at maynardholiday.com. Um you're doing a lot of really great Um you're doing a lot of really great Um you're doing a lot of really great work in the space. You're a national work in the space. You're a national work in the space. You're a national recognized leader in security strategy, recognized leader in security strategy, recognized leader in security strategy, defense innovation, and you defense innovation, and you defense innovation, and you certainly help people bridge that space certainly help people bridge that space certainly help people bridge that space between commercial and defense. And we between commercial and defense. And we between commercial and defense. And we appreciate the work that you've done appreciate the work that you've done appreciate the work that you've done over the last several decades. over the last several decades. over the last several decades. >> Yeah, it's an honor and privilege, you >> Yeah, it's an honor and privilege, you >> Yeah, it's an honor and privilege, you know, to serve in two presidential know, to serve in two presidential know, to serve in two presidential administrations. And administrations. And administrations. And you know, I want to to make sure, you you know, I want to to make sure, you you know, I want to to make sure, you know, we maintain our technological know, we maintain our technological know, we maintain our technological edge.

edge. edge. So as my my old boss used to say, make So as my my old boss used to say, make So as my my old boss used to say, make sure our soldiers, sailors, airmen, and sure our soldiers, sailors, airmen, and sure our soldiers, sailors, airmen, and guardians are never in a fair fight. guardians are never in a fair fight. guardians are never in a fair fight. >> And we appreciate their service. Thank >> And we appreciate their service. Thank >> And we appreciate their service. Thank you so much, Maynard Holliday, for you so much, Maynard Holliday, for you so much, Maynard Holliday, for chatting with me today. chatting with me today. chatting with me today. >> Yeah, my pleasure. >> Yeah, my pleasure. >> Yeah, my pleasure. >> This has been another episode of >> This has been another episode of >> This has been another episode of Hanselminutes, and we'll see you again Hanselminutes, and we'll see you again Hanselminutes, and we'll see you again next week. next week. next week. >> [music]