Kinder Code Reviews with AI? with Qodo's Nnenna Ndukwe

And then there's like very high signal And then there's like very high signal um feedback that you can get. So how do um feedback that you can get. So how do um feedback that you can get. So how do we make sure that all of that is we make sure that all of that is we make sure that all of that is filtered out? So it's going to recall filtered out? So it's going to recall filtered out? So it's going to recall the relevant information and then it's the relevant information and then it's the relevant information and then it's also going to give you the level of also going to give you the level of also going to give you the level of severity and only these very high signal severity and only these very high signal severity and only these very high signal uh feedback because if not honestly it uh feedback because if not honestly it uh feedback because if not honestly it would just be annoying if you're just would just be annoying if you're just would just be annoying if you're just getting any of any and all nitpicks. getting any of any and all nitpicks. getting any of any and all nitpicks. >> I wouldn't even want to work with a >> I wouldn't even want to work with a >> I wouldn't even want to work with a developer who is like that with code developer who is like that with code developer who is like that with code review. Um, so why would I want to, you review. Um, so why would I want to, you review. Um, so why would I want to, you know, introduce a tool or a technology know, introduce a tool or a technology know, introduce a tool or a technology that's going to do the same thing to me? that's going to do the same thing to me? that's going to do the same thing to me? >> Yeah. Hi friends, I'm Scott Hansselman. >> Yeah. Hi friends, I'm Scott Hansselman. >> Yeah. Hi friends, I'm Scott Hansselman. This is another episode of Hansel This is another episode of Hansel This is another episode of Hansel Minutes. Today I'm chatting with Nana Minutes. Today I'm chatting with Nana Minutes. Today I'm chatting with Nana and Dukquay. She's an AI developer and Dukquay. She's an AI developer and Dukquay. She's an AI developer relations lead at Cotto and she's relations lead at Cotto and she's relations lead at Cotto and she's blowing up on Twitter. How are you? blowing up on Twitter. How are you? blowing up on Twitter. How are you? >> I'm doing very well. How are you? >> I'm doing very well. How are you? >> I'm doing very well. How are you? >> I'm good. Thanks for hanging out. I've >> I'm good. Thanks for hanging out. I've >> I'm good. Thanks for hanging out. I've been really enjoying your kind of little been really enjoying your kind of little been really enjoying your kind of little kind of snackable videos that you do and kind of snackable videos that you do and kind of snackable videos that you do and you you do them mostly on Twitter, but you you do them mostly on Twitter, but you you do them mostly on Twitter, but do you do YouTube as well? I mean, how do you do YouTube as well? I mean, how do you do YouTube as well? I mean, how many social media networks are you on many social media networks are you on many social media networks are you on right now? right now? right now? >> I know right now it's Twitter and >> I know right now it's Twitter and >> I know right now it's Twitter and LinkedIn, but I'm slowly starting to get LinkedIn, but I'm slowly starting to get LinkedIn, but I'm slowly starting to get into YouTube. Expect a lot more of that into YouTube. Expect a lot more of that into YouTube. Expect a lot more of that this year, 2026.

this year, 2026. this year, 2026. >> Mhm. So, right now you're a developer >> Mhm. So, right now you're a developer >> Mhm. So, right now you're a developer relations lead at Codto, but you have to relations lead at Codto, but you have to relations lead at Codto, but you have to be an engineer to talk to engineers. How be an engineer to talk to engineers. How be an engineer to talk to engineers. How did you start your engineering journey? did you start your engineering journey? did you start your engineering journey? First of all, I love that you pointed First of all, I love that you pointed First of all, I love that you pointed that out. I think that's super important that out. I think that's super important that out. I think that's super important for, you know, Devril work. Um, I for, you know, Devril work. Um, I for, you know, Devril work. Um, I started maybe 9 10 years ago as a started maybe 9 10 years ago as a started maybe 9 10 years ago as a software developer and believe it or software developer and believe it or software developer and believe it or not, I I got in through teaching myself. not, I I got in through teaching myself. not, I I got in through teaching myself. I think that the times back then of like I think that the times back then of like I think that the times back then of like free tools online like code academy and free tools online like code academy and free tools online like code academy and free code camp. Um, I was working as a free code camp. Um, I was working as a free code camp. Um, I was working as a tanning consultant in Houston and in my tanning consultant in Houston and in my tanning consultant in Houston and in my free time I would just go through these free time I would just go through these free time I would just go through these free tutorials and then I realized like free tutorials and then I realized like free tutorials and then I realized like oh this is an actual career and this is oh this is an actual career and this is oh this is an actual career and this is super interesting solving problems super interesting solving problems super interesting solving problems through code and that's when I moved to through code and that's when I moved to through code and that's when I moved to Boston and really fully immersed myself Boston and really fully immersed myself Boston and really fully immersed myself in the tech space and eventually got a in the tech space and eventually got a in the tech space and eventually got a role and that was all before I ended up role and that was all before I ended up role and that was all before I ended up studying computer science at Boston studying computer science at Boston studying computer science at Boston University. So been doing full stack um University. So been doing full stack um University. So been doing full stack um software engineering for all of my software engineering for all of my software engineering for all of my career before transitioning into Devril career before transitioning into Devril career before transitioning into Devril and uh AI specifically.

and uh AI specifically. and uh AI specifically. >> Yeah. One of the things that I think you >> Yeah. One of the things that I think you >> Yeah. One of the things that I think you may not realize but I think we are may not realize but I think we are may not realize but I think we are kindred spirits in is that we both kindred spirits in is that we both kindred spirits in is that we both started at community college started at community college started at community college >> and I started in community college. It >> and I started in community college. It >> and I started in community college. It took me 11 years while working at night took me 11 years while working at night took me 11 years while working at night to finish my four-year degree. to finish my four-year degree. to finish my four-year degree. >> So I was working in the lab, maintaining >> So I was working in the lab, maintaining >> So I was working in the lab, maintaining computers at Portland Community College. computers at Portland Community College. computers at Portland Community College. got a job, was working full-time, but got a job, was working full-time, but got a job, was working full-time, but still doing kind of night classes and still doing kind of night classes and still doing kind of night classes and and and grinding through through stuff. and and grinding through through stuff. and and grinding through through stuff. So, even though you've been doing this So, even though you've been doing this So, even though you've been doing this for a decade plus, you still continued for a decade plus, you still continued for a decade plus, you still continued your education. your education. your education. >> Yeah, it was very difficult to balance >> Yeah, it was very difficult to balance >> Yeah, it was very difficult to balance both of those. But I think that I'm glad both of those. But I think that I'm glad both of those. But I think that I'm glad that initially I had the interest like that initially I had the interest like that initially I had the interest like this relentless curiosity to understand this relentless curiosity to understand this relentless curiosity to understand what coding and software development what coding and software development what coding and software development was. And then having these computer, you was. And then having these computer, you was. And then having these computer, you know, science courses that I could take know, science courses that I could take know, science courses that I could take at community colleges was an amazing at community colleges was an amazing at community colleges was an amazing entry point, a bit more structure in how entry point, a bit more structure in how entry point, a bit more structure in how I could learn and getting that expertise I could learn and getting that expertise I could learn and getting that expertise from professors and getting mentorship from professors and getting mentorship from professors and getting mentorship and all of that was was an awesome and all of that was was an awesome and all of that was was an awesome combination, but it was definitely a combination, but it was definitely a combination, but it was definitely a pretty difficult thing to balance once I pretty difficult thing to balance once I pretty difficult thing to balance once I was working full-time and going to was working full-time and going to was working full-time and going to school full-time.

school full-time. school full-time. >> Yeah. Yeah. I I was reflecting on I mean >> Yeah. Yeah. I I was reflecting on I mean >> Yeah. Yeah. I I was reflecting on I mean I've I've been out of school a little I've I've been out of school a little I've I've been out of school a little longer than you but all the languages longer than you but all the languages longer than you but all the languages that I learned in school are dead. that I learned in school are dead. that I learned in school are dead. >> Uh so I feel like I really C like it's >> Uh so I feel like I really C like it's >> Uh so I feel like I really C like it's not C is not dead but it was like C and not C is not dead but it was like C and not C is not dead but it was like C and Windows 3.1 and you know DOSs Turbo Windows 3.1 and you know DOSs Turbo Windows 3.1 and you know DOSs Turbo Pascal stuff like that. What did you Pascal stuff like that. What did you Pascal stuff like that. What did you learn in school and when you were learn in school and when you were learn in school and when you were self-eing? Because then you did work in self-eing? Because then you did work in self-eing? Because then you did work in you're kind of non-denominational. You you're kind of non-denominational. You you're kind of non-denominational. You do Python, you do React, JavaScript, do Python, you do React, JavaScript, do Python, you do React, JavaScript, TypeScript and everything. But I'm TypeScript and everything. But I'm TypeScript and everything. But I'm curious what you learned in school curious what you learned in school curious what you learned in school versus reality versus what you're doing versus reality versus what you're doing versus reality versus what you're doing now. Do they Is there a straight line or now. Do they Is there a straight line or now. Do they Is there a straight line or is it a curvy line? is it a curvy line? is it a curvy line? >> In school, I actually remember one of >> In school, I actually remember one of >> In school, I actually remember one of the first official It was Visual Basic. the first official It was Visual Basic. the first official It was Visual Basic. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yeah. I kne I knew you were going to be >> Yeah. I kne I knew you were going to be >> Yeah. I kne I knew you were going to be happy with that. [laughter] happy with that. [laughter] happy with that. [laughter] >> That's my jam. Like everybody like so >> That's my jam. Like everybody like so >> That's my jam. Like everybody like so many people in my generation are like many people in my generation are like many people in my generation are like Visual Basic got us started because it Visual Basic got us started because it Visual Basic got us started because it was the first like accessible like you was the first like accessible like you was the first like accessible like you can just do stuff language. Like the can just do stuff language. Like the can just do stuff language. Like the feeling that people are feeling about AI feeling that people are feeling about AI feeling that people are feeling about AI which is the you can just do stuff. We which is the you can just do stuff. We which is the you can just do stuff. We felt like that about Visual Basic felt like that about Visual Basic felt like that about Visual Basic >> literally it was yeah first time being >> literally it was yeah first time being >> literally it was yeah first time being exposed to that and it and I felt like exposed to that and it and I felt like exposed to that and it and I felt like uh pretty powerful I would [laughter] uh pretty powerful I would [laughter] uh pretty powerful I would [laughter] say and then the other in I think in at say and then the other in I think in at say and then the other in I think in at Boston University the big focus was Java Boston University the big focus was Java Boston University the big focus was Java for sure and I have mixed feelings I for sure and I have mixed feelings I for sure and I have mixed feelings I guess about it. [laughter] I don't know if I should say that out I don't know if I should say that out loud. Um [snorts] but loud. Um [snorts] but loud. Um [snorts] but >> I know because we probably have like >> I know because we probably have like >> I know because we probably have like Java friends. We don't want to offend Java friends. We don't want to offend Java friends. We don't want to offend our Java friends. We'll appreciate that.

our Java friends. We'll appreciate that. our Java friends. We'll appreciate that. amazing talented Java friends that like amazing talented Java friends that like amazing talented Java friends that like my colleague, principal architect, the my colleague, principal architect, the my colleague, principal architect, the Java guy 30 years. So, you know, but but Java guy 30 years. So, you know, but but Java guy 30 years. So, you know, but but still I think I was comparing it to the still I think I was comparing it to the still I think I was comparing it to the ease of use I felt with JavaScript or I ease of use I felt with JavaScript or I ease of use I felt with JavaScript or I guess how easy was to get started when guess how easy was to get started when guess how easy was to get started when you know nothing. JavaScript felt a bit you know nothing. JavaScript felt a bit you know nothing. JavaScript felt a bit more friendly than Java when I was more friendly than Java when I was more friendly than Java when I was learning it in in university. Yeah, I learning it in in university. Yeah, I learning it in in university. Yeah, I think it's also worth noting and I think think it's also worth noting and I think think it's also worth noting and I think our Java friends would probably agree our Java friends would probably agree our Java friends would probably agree with us that Java as taught in with us that Java as taught in with us that Java as taught in university is not the same as like Java university is not the same as like Java university is not the same as like Java in the enterprise and there's a bit of a in the enterprise and there's a bit of a in the enterprise and there's a bit of a distance there. distance there. distance there. >> Oh, I would like to hear more about >> Oh, I would like to hear more about >> Oh, I would like to hear more about that, your opinions on that. that, your opinions on that. that, your opinions on that. >> Well, I just feel like the stuff that I >> Well, I just feel like the stuff that I >> Well, I just feel like the stuff that I learned was always four years behind and learned was always four years behind and learned was always four years behind and it's just like Java beans and like Java it's just like Java beans and like Java it's just like Java beans and like Java for Hello World versus like running a for Hello World versus like running a for Hello World versus like running a large enterprise that needs to scale. I large enterprise that needs to scale. I large enterprise that needs to scale. I feel like one of the number one missing feel like one of the number one missing feel like one of the number one missing things in school is scaling stuff. things in school is scaling stuff. things in school is scaling stuff. Everything you make in school, as a Everything you make in school, as a Everything you make in school, as a general rule, is largely a toy. general rule, is largely a toy. general rule, is largely a toy. Particularly at kind of mid-level Particularly at kind of mid-level Particularly at kind of mid-level schools and community colleges, you're schools and community colleges, you're schools and community colleges, you're making stuff for yourself. I uh it's not making stuff for yourself. I uh it's not making stuff for yourself. I uh it's not until you get to like fancier schools.

until you get to like fancier schools. until you get to like fancier schools. And I'm I'm curious if you saw this at And I'm I'm curious if you saw this at And I'm I'm curious if you saw this at Boston University where you start doing Boston University where you start doing Boston University where you start doing group projects and making something big group projects and making something big group projects and making something big and scalable. Yeah, group projects and scalable. Yeah, group projects and scalable. Yeah, group projects definitely made things a bit more I definitely made things a bit more I definitely made things a bit more I guess you had to grow up in a way guess you had to grow up in a way guess you had to grow up in a way [laughter] with a more complex problem [laughter] with a more complex problem [laughter] with a more complex problem solving and collaboration um really with solving and collaboration um really with solving and collaboration um really with projects. But yeah, I can see what you projects. But yeah, I can see what you projects. But yeah, I can see what you mean about the difference there. a lot mean about the difference there. a lot mean about the difference there. a lot of like isolated small projects when of like isolated small projects when of like isolated small projects when you're you know in your own world you're you know in your own world you're you know in your own world building for yourself um and it's a building for yourself um and it's a building for yourself um and it's a completely different ballgame um with completely different ballgame um with completely different ballgame um with large companies and you know I feel the large companies and you know I feel the large companies and you know I feel the same way when it comes to the startup same way when it comes to the startup same way when it comes to the startup working at a very small startup working at a very small startup working at a very small startup developer team versus thinking uh for a developer team versus thinking uh for a developer team versus thinking uh for a larger machine at a larger company with larger machine at a larger company with larger machine at a larger company with a bigger product bringing in that brings a bigger product bringing in that brings a bigger product bringing in that brings in millions a year and you know the how in millions a year and you know the how in millions a year and you know the how careful you have to be in the processes careful you have to be in the processes careful you have to be in the processes put in place to make sure your shipping put in place to make sure your shipping put in place to make sure your shipping quality uh is is a I think that that is quality uh is is a I think that that is quality uh is is a I think that that is different and it it makes sense why it different and it it makes sense why it different and it it makes sense why it would be. would be. would be. >> Yeah. Now when when we start doing group >> Yeah. Now when when we start doing group >> Yeah. Now when when we start doing group projects and I try to explain this to my projects and I try to explain this to my projects and I try to explain this to my my my the young men in my life, my son's my my the young men in my life, my son's my my the young men in my life, my son's 18 and 20 that life is just a big group 18 and 20 that life is just a big group 18 and 20 that life is just a big group project except you don't always get to project except you don't always get to project except you don't always get to pick the people on the project. And pick the people on the project. And pick the people on the project. And sometimes that one guy or gal who sometimes that one guy or gal who sometimes that one guy or gal who doesn't do anything but they come to all doesn't do anything but they come to all doesn't do anything but they come to all the meetings and they just kind of hang the meetings and they just kind of hang the meetings and they just kind of hang out and then they also get an A. Like out and then they also get an A. Like out and then they also get an A. Like that happens a lot. That kind of sucks.

that happens a lot. That kind of sucks. that happens a lot. That kind of sucks. Did they teach you that in school or did Did they teach you that in school or did Did they teach you that in school or did you just learn that late later in life? you just learn that late later in life? you just learn that late later in life? >> You know, I I was one of those people >> You know, I I was one of those people >> You know, I I was one of those people who if I noticed there was someone who if I noticed there was someone who if I noticed there was someone slacking, I was like, there's no way I'm slacking, I was like, there's no way I'm slacking, I was like, there's no way I'm going to let them negatively impact going to let them negatively impact going to let them negatively impact the overall grade, right? So, I would the overall grade, right? So, I would the overall grade, right? So, I would definitely do a lot of their own work. definitely do a lot of their own work. definitely do a lot of their own work. Maybe that's not a good team player, but Maybe that's not a good team player, but Maybe that's not a good team player, but if if I knew that there was no way they if if I knew that there was no way they if if I knew that there was no way they were going to do it and they wouldn't were going to do it and they wouldn't were going to do it and they wouldn't have done it anyway, I'm taking on that have done it anyway, I'm taking on that have done it anyway, I'm taking on that work. work. work. >> I've done a number of podcast about code >> I've done a number of podcast about code >> I've done a number of podcast about code reviews and I feel like code reviews get reviews and I feel like code reviews get reviews and I feel like code reviews get people tense. They're uh it's a moment people tense. They're uh it's a moment people tense. They're uh it's a moment in a group project where you have to in a group project where you have to in a group project where you have to actually look at people's work. And actually look at people's work. And actually look at people's work. And typically code reviews when I was coming typically code reviews when I was coming typically code reviews when I was coming up were done in a room full of people in up were done in a room full of people in up were done in a room full of people in front of a whiteboard and we would share front of a whiteboard and we would share front of a whiteboard and we would share our screen and we would like what were our screen and we would like what were our screen and we would like what were you thinking Nana when you did that line you thinking Nana when you did that line you thinking Nana when you did that line of code like what what was wrong with of code like what what was wrong with of code like what what was wrong with you when you wrote line 55 and it was you when you wrote line 55 and it was you when you wrote line 55 and it was just it was very personal but now it's a just it was very personal but now it's a just it was very personal but now it's a little bit more like on GitHub or in you little bit more like on GitHub or in you little bit more like on GitHub or in you know GitOps and like that what has been know GitOps and like that what has been know GitOps and like that what has been your experience through group projects your experience through group projects your experience through group projects up through the pre-Git era and now git up through the pre-Git era and now git up through the pre-Git era and now git code reviews and distributed code code reviews and distributed code code reviews and distributed code reviews and how how it makes you reviews and how how it makes you reviews and how how it makes you >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> I distinctly remember um similar >> I distinctly remember um similar >> I distinctly remember um similar experience. I don't think a whiteboard experience. I don't think a whiteboard experience. I don't think a whiteboard was involved but you know a big screen was involved but you know a big screen was involved but you know a big screen sharing for earlier on in my development sharing for earlier on in my development sharing for earlier on in my development career and code review right there in in career and code review right there in in career and code review right there in in one room everyone looking and skimming one room everyone looking and skimming one room everyone looking and skimming through it. Those were some brutal

through it. Those were some brutal through it. Those were some brutal moments. I'm not going to lie. I think I moments. I'm not going to lie. I think I moments. I'm not going to lie. I think I it I think maybe a lot of things have it I think maybe a lot of things have it I think maybe a lot of things have changed since then. So there's some changed since then. So there's some changed since then. So there's some detachment I think that you're able to detachment I think that you're able to detachment I think that you're able to have when you know with the remote work have when you know with the remote work have when you know with the remote work and and you know comments just being on and and you know comments just being on and and you know comments just being on GitHub instead of everyone being in a GitHub instead of everyone being in a GitHub instead of everyone being in a room talking about how questionable your room talking about how questionable your room talking about how questionable your code may or may not be [laughter] code may or may not be [laughter] code may or may not be [laughter] but the personalities are can still be but the personalities are can still be but the personalities are can still be strong and show up in those comments in strong and show up in those comments in strong and show up in those comments in GitHub you know so it it really depends GitHub you know so it it really depends GitHub you know so it it really depends on like who you're working with and what on like who you're working with and what on like who you're working with and what their style is their preference and what their style is their preference and what their style is their preference and what everyone cares out. Um, so that's everyone cares out. Um, so that's everyone cares out. Um, so that's something that I think that now with AI something that I think that now with AI something that I think that now with AI code review, there's this third party code review, there's this third party code review, there's this third party that is playing a part in the experience that is playing a part in the experience that is playing a part in the experience that interestingly I'm seeing um, some that interestingly I'm seeing um, some that interestingly I'm seeing um, some developers are actually developers are actually developers are actually I guess they prefer to maybe argue with I guess they prefer to maybe argue with I guess they prefer to maybe argue with the AI as opposed to and maybe fix their the AI as opposed to and maybe fix their the AI as opposed to and maybe fix their work with AI before another person, work with AI before another person, work with AI before another person, another professional has to come come in another professional has to come come in another professional has to come come in and review their work. Ideally, before a and review their work. Ideally, before a and review their work. Ideally, before a pull request is even live and public.

pull request is even live and public. pull request is even live and public. But if it has to um if it if it's But if it has to um if it if it's But if it has to um if it if it's already public, then there's some fixing already public, then there's some fixing already public, then there's some fixing up that they can do before uh their up that they can do before uh their up that they can do before uh their [clears throat] colleague jumps in. I [clears throat] colleague jumps in. I [clears throat] colleague jumps in. I remember in the move from being in remember in the move from being in remember in the move from being in school to being like on a small company school to being like on a small company school to being like on a small company to being in a big company. It's kind of to being in a big company. It's kind of to being in a big company. It's kind of like when you wrote a paper for English like when you wrote a paper for English like when you wrote a paper for English and then it gets returned covered in red and then it gets returned covered in red and then it gets returned covered in red ink and then you have to just go and but ink and then you have to just go and but ink and then you have to just go and but that was very like personal and it felt that was very like personal and it felt that was very like personal and it felt very opinionated because I would be very opinionated because I would be very opinionated because I would be reading what my English teacher would reading what my English teacher would reading what my English teacher would think about my essay and I'd be like think about my essay and I'd be like think about my essay and I'd be like well I mean says you like you're you're well I mean says you like you're you're well I mean says you like you're you're you're more senior and you're fancy but you're more senior and you're fancy but you're more senior and you're fancy but like spelling errors yes but like like spelling errors yes but like like spelling errors yes but like thematically no this is good thematically no this is good thematically no this is good thematically. code reviews also felt a thematically. code reviews also felt a thematically. code reviews also felt a little like personal and it's just like little like personal and it's just like little like personal and it's just like but I I kind of find that with AI code but I I kind of find that with AI code but I I kind of find that with AI code reviews, at least the ones that I do reviews, at least the ones that I do reviews, at least the ones that I do before I put the PR up, it's like no, before I put the PR up, it's like no, before I put the PR up, it's like no, we're really just focused on correctness we're really just focused on correctness we're really just focused on correctness and I I kind of like that. It feels more and I I kind of like that. It feels more and I I kind of like that. It feels more like less personal. It's more about and like less personal. It's more about and like less personal. It's more about and I'm saying spelling in quotes because I'm saying spelling in quotes because I'm saying spelling in quotes because it's like the AI doesn't have a beef it's like the AI doesn't have a beef it's like the AI doesn't have a beef with me [laughter] that they're like with me [laughter] that they're like with me [laughter] that they're like actively trying to destroy me at work actively trying to destroy me at work actively trying to destroy me at work because they didn't like me. They just because they didn't like me. They just because they didn't like me. They just want to make sure the code is correct, want to make sure the code is correct, want to make sure the code is correct, >> right? there. So, some of the negative, >> right? there. So, some of the negative, >> right? there. So, some of the negative, it sounds like what you're saying and it sounds like what you're saying and it sounds like what you're saying and what we're both saying, some of the I what we're both saying, some of the I what we're both saying, some of the I guess the downsides of the human guess the downsides of the human guess the downsides of the human collaboration aspect of things, the collaboration aspect of things, the collaboration aspect of things, the variability there gets um softened a bit variability there gets um softened a bit variability there gets um softened a bit in the experience with um AI and it can in the experience with um AI and it can in the experience with um AI and it can also be a learning tool too for juniors also be a learning tool too for juniors also be a learning tool too for juniors coming up depending on you know the type

coming up depending on you know the type coming up depending on you know the type of developer experience that the code of developer experience that the code of developer experience that the code review can provide and the way in which review can provide and the way in which review can provide and the way in which you engage with it. That's those are you engage with it. That's those are you engage with it. That's those are other elements there. But the way other elements there. But the way other elements there. But the way juniors can potentially learn from a juniors can potentially learn from a juniors can potentially learn from a code review experience and the ways that code review experience and the ways that code review experience and the ways that a senior developer maybe can learn how a senior developer maybe can learn how a senior developer maybe can learn how to engage or which things to focus on um to engage or which things to focus on um to engage or which things to focus on um based on the insights from a code review based on the insights from a code review based on the insights from a code review that that an AI tool can can highlight. that that an AI tool can can highlight. that that an AI tool can can highlight. >> Yeah. Like I don't I do not want AIs to >> Yeah. Like I don't I do not want AIs to >> Yeah. Like I don't I do not want AIs to like hurt people or replace people, like hurt people or replace people, like hurt people or replace people, >> but I do like the extra step between >> but I do like the extra step between >> but I do like the extra step between like I like the AI code review right like I like the AI code review right like I like the AI code review right before the human like looks at it. And before the human like looks at it. And before the human like looks at it. And uh I I noticed though that it's all uh I I noticed though that it's all uh I I noticed though that it's all about context. And I don't mean about context. And I don't mean about context. And I don't mean necessarily AI context. I mean like why necessarily AI context. I mean like why necessarily AI context. I mean like why was this done this way? Well, there's an was this done this way? Well, there's an was this done this way? Well, there's an old person who works here who wrote it old person who works here who wrote it old person who works here who wrote it 20 years ago and it was a good idea back 20 years ago and it was a good idea back 20 years ago and it was a good idea back then. Like that's context and I don't then. Like that's context and I don't then. Like that's context and I don't know if that fits in a context window. know if that fits in a context window. know if that fits in a context window. And when the bigger the codebase, the And when the bigger the codebase, the And when the bigger the codebase, the more complex the codebase, a lot of more complex the codebase, a lot of more complex the codebase, a lot of context gets missed. So you'll have context gets missed. So you'll have context gets missed. So you'll have blinders on and you'll have like a very blinders on and you'll have like a very blinders on and you'll have like a very narrow window in your mind about like narrow window in your mind about like narrow window in your mind about like that line of code sucks. And it's like that line of code sucks. And it's like that line of code sucks. And it's like well actually if you knew about the well actually if you knew about the well actually if you knew about the bigger context, you'd understand why bigger context, you'd understand why bigger context, you'd understand why that's exactly what needs to happen that's exactly what needs to happen that's exactly what needs to happen right now.

right now. right now. >> Exactly. Um yeah, I think there's that >> Exactly. Um yeah, I think there's that >> Exactly. Um yeah, I think there's that impacts or I guess having that proper impacts or I guess having that proper impacts or I guess having that proper context, no pun intended in my case and context, no pun intended in my case and context, no pun intended in my case and yours. Uh definitely helps to shape the yours. Uh definitely helps to shape the yours. Uh definitely helps to shape the decisions that are made in the present decisions that are made in the present decisions that are made in the present time over why something is built and the time over why something is built and the time over why something is built and the way in which it was built. It should if way in which it was built. It should if way in which it was built. It should if if it should exist at all. And yeah, I if it should exist at all. And yeah, I if it should exist at all. And yeah, I think in the AI specific context, I think in the AI specific context, I think in the AI specific context, I think that there is a really big push think that there is a really big push think that there is a really big push and a need for all of that type of and a need for all of that type of and a need for all of that type of information that could be tribal information that could be tribal information that could be tribal knowledge or, you know, only the person knowledge or, you know, only the person knowledge or, you know, only the person who's been at this company x amount of who's been at this company x amount of who's been at this company x amount of years and had been in the room during years and had been in the room during years and had been in the room during some of those conversations. those some of those conversations. those some of those conversations. those that's information that they would know that's information that they would know that's information that they would know um that in that influences the way in um that in that influences the way in um that in that influences the way in which um a a piece of software product which um a a piece of software product which um a a piece of software product is built. I think uh we're really is built. I think uh we're really is built. I think uh we're really pushing to codify that information make pushing to codify that information make pushing to codify that information make it machine readable. It's like where it machine readable. It's like where it machine readable. It's like where does it exist? How and how can we does it exist? How and how can we does it exist? How and how can we collect that in a way that AI can collect that in a way that AI can collect that in a way that AI can consume it and traverse it um ingest it consume it and traverse it um ingest it consume it and traverse it um ingest it uh often in order to influence what is uh often in order to influence what is uh often in order to influence what is even um suggested for code changes or even um suggested for code changes or even um suggested for code changes or improvement or um validated.

improvement or um validated. improvement or um validated. >> Mhm. Now in your day job you work at a >> Mhm. Now in your day job you work at a >> Mhm. Now in your day job you work at a company called Kodo. It's QO company called Kodo. It's QO company called Kodo. It's QO and they have a code review product and and they have a code review product and and they have a code review product and they've got Kodo 2.0 know coming out and they've got Kodo 2.0 know coming out and they've got Kodo 2.0 know coming out and that's a very crowded space right and I that's a very crowded space right and I that's a very crowded space right and I think the question is is a code review think the question is is a code review think the question is is a code review from an AI good and what's the secret from an AI good and what's the secret from an AI good and what's the secret sauce because for some people who are sauce because for some people who are sauce because for some people who are listening they may have just copy pasted listening they may have just copy pasted listening they may have just copy pasted code in chap gpt and said hey is this code in chap gpt and said hey is this code in chap gpt and said hey is this good or they may go into co uh you know good or they may go into co uh you know good or they may go into co uh you know claude code or github copilot and go claude code or github copilot and go claude code or github copilot and go slre slre slre but like now there's context engineering but like now there's context engineering but like now there's context engineering there's complicated multilevel multi there's complicated multilevel multi there's complicated multilevel multi multi- aent multi- aent multi- aent code reviews, code reviews, code reviews, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> Do you think code review is something >> Do you think code review is something >> Do you think code review is something that's going to be commoditized and we that's going to be commoditized and we that's going to be commoditized and we just like it's not that big of a deal, just like it's not that big of a deal, just like it's not that big of a deal, just use this one or do you think that just use this one or do you think that just use this one or do you think that there's secret sauce that companies like there's secret sauce that companies like there's secret sauce that companies like Kodo can can provide to make it Kodo can can provide to make it Kodo can can provide to make it something special? something special? something special? >> I think there is a secret sauce. I mean >> I think there is a secret sauce. I mean >> I think there is a secret sauce. I mean just being in the weeds and um learning just being in the weeds and um learning just being in the weeds and um learning so much from the R&D team here um diving so much from the R&D team here um diving so much from the R&D team here um diving more into like what what are the more into like what what are the more into like what what are the qualities or the components of a good AI qualities or the components of a good AI qualities or the components of a good AI code review. I think I've realized that code review. I think I've realized that code review. I think I've realized that there is a secret sauce. There are many there is a secret sauce. There are many there is a secret sauce. There are many secret sauces. Context was one of the secret sauces. Context was one of the secret sauces. Context was one of the things that we brought up um that I things that we brought up um that I things that we brought up um that I think can empower or influence like best think can empower or influence like best think can empower or influence like best practices and architectural decisions practices and architectural decisions practices and architectural decisions and entire code bases and how they all and entire code bases and how they all and entire code bases and how they all work together. Um that can influence the

work together. Um that can influence the work together. Um that can influence the value of the insights that you get from value of the insights that you get from value of the insights that you get from a code review. Um but so so context is a code review. Um but so so context is a code review. Um but so so context is extremely important and can be a extremely important and can be a extremely important and can be a differentiator I think in this space. differentiator I think in this space. differentiator I think in this space. But also there's um there's another But also there's um there's another But also there's um there's another element there and that's just the element there and that's just the element there and that's just the benchmarking around highest precision, benchmarking around highest precision, benchmarking around highest precision, highest recall and constantly improving highest recall and constantly improving highest recall and constantly improving in that area in a very specialized in that area in a very specialized in that area in a very specialized manner. Um I think that is what can help manner. Um I think that is what can help manner. Um I think that is what can help with with with >> okay there is a lot of code review tools >> okay there is a lot of code review tools >> okay there is a lot of code review tools out there but there are some that out there but there are some that out there but there are some that produce a lot of noise where it's just produce a lot of noise where it's just produce a lot of noise where it's just going to call out everything and going to call out everything and going to call out everything and anything that based on the code you know anything that based on the code you know anything that based on the code you know that you give it or the the diff that it that you give it or the the diff that it that you give it or the the diff that it uh reads um through git and then there's uh reads um through git and then there's uh reads um through git and then there's like very high signal um feedback that like very high signal um feedback that like very high signal um feedback that you can get. So, how do we make sure you can get. So, how do we make sure you can get. So, how do we make sure that all of that is filtered out? So, that all of that is filtered out? So, that all of that is filtered out? So, it's going to recall the relevant it's going to recall the relevant it's going to recall the relevant information and then it's also going to information and then it's also going to information and then it's also going to give you the level of severity and only give you the level of severity and only give you the level of severity and only these very high signal uh feedback these very high signal uh feedback these very high signal uh feedback because if not, honestly, it would just because if not, honestly, it would just because if not, honestly, it would just be annoying if you're just getting any be annoying if you're just getting any be annoying if you're just getting any of any and all nitpicks.

of any and all nitpicks. of any and all nitpicks. >> I wouldn't even want to work with a >> I wouldn't even want to work with a >> I wouldn't even want to work with a developer who is like that with code developer who is like that with code developer who is like that with code review. Um, so why would I want to, you review. Um, so why would I want to, you review. Um, so why would I want to, you know, introduce a tool or a technology know, introduce a tool or a technology know, introduce a tool or a technology that's going to do the same thing to me? that's going to do the same thing to me? that's going to do the same thing to me? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You did a blog post a couple of months >> You did a blog post a couple of months >> You did a blog post a couple of months ago on contextual retrieval and kind of ago on contextual retrieval and kind of ago on contextual retrieval and kind of like how that's different from just like like how that's different from just like like how that's different from just like rag or just uh like the code is not rag or just uh like the code is not rag or just uh like the code is not telling the full story, which I thought telling the full story, which I thought telling the full story, which I thought was really interesting. If if someone was really interesting. If if someone was really interesting. If if someone says, "I'm going to do a code review and says, "I'm going to do a code review and says, "I'm going to do a code review and here's the file or here's the new here's the file or here's the new here's the file or here's the new interface that we're going to do a code interface that we're going to do a code interface that we're going to do a code review on." There's the code, but there review on." There's the code, but there review on." There's the code, but there might be like a whole conversation that might be like a whole conversation that might be like a whole conversation that happened over in an issue somewhere. happened over in an issue somewhere. happened over in an issue somewhere. There's a whole design document. There's There's a whole design document. There's There's a whole design document. There's like Slack messages. Context is spread like Slack messages. Context is spread like Slack messages. Context is spread all over the the company. all over the the company. all over the the company. >> Yeah, it is. Um, and then there's >> Yeah, it is. Um, and then there's >> Yeah, it is. Um, and then there's there's also like best practices in there's also like best practices in there's also like best practices in general that I think uh is spread out in general that I think uh is spread out in general that I think uh is spread out in different areas. Um, it could be through different areas. Um, it could be through different areas. Um, it could be through some comments that you might find in some comments that you might find in some comments that you might find in some GitHub issues or comments from past some GitHub issues or comments from past some GitHub issues or comments from past PRs of like we don't do this that way.

PRs of like we don't do this that way. PRs of like we don't do this that way. Here's the actual way that we implement Here's the actual way that we implement Here's the actual way that we implement it. So if you think about all the it. So if you think about all the it. So if you think about all the different types of contexts that you can different types of contexts that you can different types of contexts that you can find and all the different places that find and all the different places that find and all the different places that they might exist, the work around uh they might exist, the work around uh they might exist, the work around uh converging that into maybe some central converging that into maybe some central converging that into maybe some central plane that can fuel um AI code review plane that can fuel um AI code review plane that can fuel um AI code review tools like I think that is that not only tools like I think that is that not only tools like I think that is that not only is going isn't it's not only going to is going isn't it's not only going to is going isn't it's not only going to help with the experience of using it on help with the experience of using it on help with the experience of using it on a daily basis of like okay this is a daily basis of like okay this is a daily basis of like okay this is actually more valuable information. I actually more valuable information. I actually more valuable information. I think that that's when you can get into think that that's when you can get into think that that's when you can get into like some proactive real what I consider like some proactive real what I consider like some proactive real what I consider real AI. It's like very proactive uh real AI. It's like very proactive uh real AI. It's like very proactive uh developer experiences. developer experiences. developer experiences. >> Yeah. Cuz there's there's like people >> Yeah. Cuz there's there's like people >> Yeah. Cuz there's there's like people say, "Well, just give it a giant context say, "Well, just give it a giant context say, "Well, just give it a giant context window. Throw everything at it. Like window. Throw everything at it. Like window. Throw everything at it. Like give you have a million tokens. Throw it give you have a million tokens. Throw it give you have a million tokens. Throw it all into the pile." But the AI reasoning all into the pile." But the AI reasoning all into the pile." But the AI reasoning layer can only do so much. And it's they layer can only do so much. And it's they layer can only do so much. And it's they call it a what's the word? The needle in call it a what's the word? The needle in call it a what's the word? The needle in the haststack problem. And the the thing the haststack problem. And the the thing the haststack problem. And the the thing that I think is interesting from your that I think is interesting from your that I think is interesting from your blog post is there's a context gathering blog post is there's a context gathering blog post is there's a context gathering layer that happens well before the AI layer that happens well before the AI layer that happens well before the AI gets gets to think about it because gets gets to think about it because gets gets to think about it because garbage in garbage out. Right.

garbage in garbage out. Right. garbage in garbage out. Right. >> Right. Right. There's a few things going >> Right. Right. There's a few things going >> Right. Right. There's a few things going on there. And one of those things is on there. And one of those things is on there. And one of those things is like if you're worried about the context like if you're worried about the context like if you're worried about the context window, it's like there is an engine window, it's like there is an engine window, it's like there is an engine running and I think about it like a cron running and I think about it like a cron running and I think about it like a cron job, right? where it's just ingesting job, right? where it's just ingesting job, right? where it's just ingesting information on a nightly basis like a information on a nightly basis like a information on a nightly basis like a build. And that is supposed to help with build. And that is supposed to help with build. And that is supposed to help with um essentially you don't have to worry um essentially you don't have to worry um essentially you don't have to worry about retrieving all of that information about retrieving all of that information about retrieving all of that information in real time. This is information that in real time. This is information that in real time. This is information that is baked in ready to be recalled um is baked in ready to be recalled um is baked in ready to be recalled um already and that engine is running on already and that engine is running on already and that engine is running on itself. Then you can also determine um itself. Then you can also determine um itself. Then you can also determine um what goes what actually goes into that what goes what actually goes into that what goes what actually goes into that engine uh to fuel or improve the AI engine uh to fuel or improve the AI engine uh to fuel or improve the AI itself. itself. itself. >> So there's a a lot of things going on >> So there's a a lot of things going on >> So there's a a lot of things going on there that is beyond rag I would say or there that is beyond rag I would say or there that is beyond rag I would say or what people are calling more agentic rag what people are calling more agentic rag what people are calling more agentic rag >> as you get deeper into the different >> as you get deeper into the different >> as you get deeper into the different like AI architectural patterns that seem like AI architectural patterns that seem like AI architectural patterns that seem to be more successful now I guess with to be more successful now I guess with to be more successful now I guess with the more testing and building things it the more testing and building things it the more testing and building things it changes. Yeah, it is. They the being changes. Yeah, it is. They the being changes. Yeah, it is. They the being able to do like search has always sucked able to do like search has always sucked able to do like search has always sucked and I remember like like again I'm of a and I remember like like again I'm of a and I remember like like again I'm of a certain age so I remember when like when certain age so I remember when like when certain age so I remember when like when you had to search for something you had you had to search for something you had you had to search for something you had to use proper case like capital letters to use proper case like capital letters to use proper case like capital letters mattered and then we got case mattered and then we got case mattered and then we got case insensitive searches and then we got insensitive searches and then we got insensitive searches and then we got fuzzy searches and now we have AI fuzzy searches and now we have AI fuzzy searches and now we have AI searches where I can say what was that

searches where I can say what was that searches where I can say what was that thing I was talking to Nana about I thing I was talking to Nana about I thing I was talking to Nana about I think it was last week on Slack could think it was last week on Slack could think it was last week on Slack could have been the week before we were have been the week before we were have been the week before we were talking about design like you can give talking about design like you can give talking about design like you can give long yappy like what was that thing with long yappy like what was that thing with long yappy like what was that thing with that person with that guy? He was in that person with that guy? He was in that person with that guy? He was in this movie with this and it'll know and this movie with this and it'll know and this movie with this and it'll know and it's like that's where augmentation it's like that's where augmentation it's like that's where augmentation feels cool like that's like wow now I feels cool like that's like wow now I feels cool like that's like wow now I have like an exoskeleton for my own have like an exoskeleton for my own have like an exoskeleton for my own brain. So if that context gathering for brain. So if that context gathering for brain. So if that context gathering for like a codebase gets not just like a like a codebase gets not just like a like a codebase gets not just like a commit history which is basic but like commit history which is basic but like commit history which is basic but like test coverage conversations discussions test coverage conversations discussions test coverage conversations discussions about the feature a a document that was about the feature a a document that was about the feature a a document that was from design from a year ago and then from design from a year ago and then from design from a year ago and then give the right amount of context you can give the right amount of context you can give the right amount of context you can answer those super vague questions. answer those super vague questions. answer those super vague questions. >> It's honestly I I feel the same way as >> It's honestly I I feel the same way as >> It's honestly I I feel the same way as you. I I'm still blown away that I can you. I I'm still blown away that I can you. I I'm still blown away that I can search something um and it will you know search something um and it will you know search something um and it will you know a an AI search tool can a an AI search tool can a an AI search tool can bring up the most relevant or closely bring up the most relevant or closely bring up the most relevant or closely matching information without even using matching information without even using matching information without even using the direct or the exact keywords that the direct or the exact keywords that the direct or the exact keywords that match what I was talking about that match what I was talking about that match what I was talking about that semantic um layer. I I think it's semantic um layer. I I think it's semantic um layer. I I think it's absolutely fascinating, but that is that absolutely fascinating, but that is that absolutely fascinating, but that is that is the present and I think it's the is the present and I think it's the is the present and I think it's the future of really future of really future of really of of really what real AI is could be of of really what real AI is could be of of really what real AI is could be and is intended to be for and is intended to be for and is intended to be for >> for users, everyday users.

>> for users, everyday users. >> for users, everyday users. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, why did you join a >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, why did you join a >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, why did you join a code review company? Was it exciting to code review company? Was it exciting to code review company? Was it exciting to like get in in this space? Because like get in in this space? Because like get in in this space? Because you've got you're like you're in the you've got you're like you're in the you've got you're like you're in the thick of it. I watch you doing videos thick of it. I watch you doing videos thick of it. I watch you doing videos basically every single day talking about basically every single day talking about basically every single day talking about how you can make people's lives better how you can make people's lives better how you can make people's lives better and it's a really advanced system. I've and it's a really advanced system. I've and it's a really advanced system. I've been going through the Codto been going through the Codto been going through the Codto documentation and learning about all the documentation and learning about all the documentation and learning about all the different contexts. I was just thinking different contexts. I was just thinking different contexts. I was just thinking about context generally, but there's the about context generally, but there's the about context generally, but there's the semantic context, there's the temporal semantic context, there's the temporal semantic context, there's the temporal context, context over time, there's the context, context over time, there's the context, context over time, there's the architectural context. And the bigger architectural context. And the bigger architectural context. And the bigger the codebase, the more this matters the codebase, the more this matters the codebase, the more this matters because your codebase is very likely because your codebase is very likely because your codebase is very likely much larger than your context window. much larger than your context window. much larger than your context window. >> Exactly. There's something about AI for >> Exactly. There's something about AI for >> Exactly. There's something about AI for software development, the software software development, the software software development, the software development life cycle that it, how do I development life cycle that it, how do I development life cycle that it, how do I say this, has me in a chokeold. say this, has me in a chokeold. say this, has me in a chokeold. [laughter] That's the best way to put [laughter] That's the best way to put [laughter] That's the best way to put it. I'm so fascinated by the way to as it. I'm so fascinated by the way to as it. I'm so fascinated by the way to as structured ways to integrate AI into the structured ways to integrate AI into the structured ways to integrate AI into the software developers experience to software developers experience to software developers experience to improve their workflow to improve the improve their workflow to improve the improve their workflow to improve the quality or even maintain the quality quality or even maintain the quality quality or even maintain the quality that they want to maintain with their that they want to maintain with their that they want to maintain with their software being able to ship it and just software being able to ship it and just software being able to ship it and just maybe do it a bit faster. uh that is maybe do it a bit faster. uh that is maybe do it a bit faster. uh that is just there are so many as we know when just there are so many as we know when just there are so many as we know when you look at the entire life cycle there you look at the entire life cycle there you look at the entire life cycle there are many stages and so that means that are many stages and so that means that are many stages and so that means that there are many opportunities to peel there are many opportunities to peel there are many opportunities to peel back the layers get into the weeds and back the layers get into the weeds and back the layers get into the weeds and find out what where are the wins here find out what where are the wins here find out what where are the wins here for workflows with AI where you can for workflows with AI where you can for workflows with AI where you can improve it and so that's you know

improve it and so that's you know improve it and so that's you know ultimately what drew me to Codto is that ultimately what drew me to Codto is that ultimately what drew me to Codto is that not only is it a tool that is meant to not only is it a tool that is meant to not only is it a tool that is meant to enable developers for that but also enable developers for that but also enable developers for that but also there's so much I think there's so much there's so much I think there's so much there's so much I think there's so much more to be said about practical more to be said about practical more to be said about practical implementations. This is not about like implementations. This is not about like implementations. This is not about like oh AI for software development like this oh AI for software development like this oh AI for software development like this is a thing that you need to be doing. is a thing that you need to be doing. is a thing that you need to be doing. There's so we hear this message all the There's so we hear this message all the There's so we hear this message all the time and when I speak with engineering time and when I speak with engineering time and when I speak with engineering managers and when I you know have talks managers and when I you know have talks managers and when I you know have talks and things like that they're like that's and things like that they're like that's and things like that they're like that's awesome. Yes, we should be using AI. How awesome. Yes, we should be using AI. How awesome. Yes, we should be using AI. How do you actually roll this out? How do do you actually roll this out? How do do you actually roll this out? How do you actually adopt this? And those are you actually adopt this? And those are you actually adopt this? And those are the real important questions I think. the real important questions I think. the real important questions I think. So, you know, exposure to tools is So, you know, exposure to tools is So, you know, exposure to tools is awesome, but being able to walk through awesome, but being able to walk through awesome, but being able to walk through how you can actually use it um from an how you can actually use it um from an how you can actually use it um from an individual to an entire engineering individual to an entire engineering individual to an entire engineering organization, that's just that is so organization, that's just that is so organization, that's just that is so exciting to me. exciting to me. exciting to me. >> Now, I hear I see a lot of code review >> Now, I hear I see a lot of code review >> Now, I hear I see a lot of code review tools that are around GitHub and I hear tools that are around GitHub and I hear tools that are around GitHub and I hear everyone's talking about, you know, everyone's talking about, you know, everyone's talking about, you know, GitHub, it's very GitHub ccentric, it's GitHub, it's very GitHub ccentric, it's GitHub, it's very GitHub ccentric, it's very GitLab ccentric, it's all the all very GitLab ccentric, it's all the all very GitLab ccentric, it's all the all the git places. But you also work in the git places. But you also work in the git places. But you also work in Azure DevOps, which I thought was pretty Azure DevOps, which I thought was pretty Azure DevOps, which I thought was pretty cool that you've got like code quality cool that you've got like code quality cool that you've got like code quality security reviews all in Asdo. And I security reviews all in Asdo. And I security reviews all in Asdo. And I people don't maybe know this. I don't people don't maybe know this. I don't people don't maybe know this. I don't talk about it enough, but like most of talk about it enough, but like most of talk about it enough, but like most of my main sites all run in Azure DevOps.

my main sites all run in Azure DevOps. my main sites all run in Azure DevOps. Like I'm a I freaking Yeah. Like Hansman Like I'm a I freaking Yeah. Like Hansman Like I'm a I freaking Yeah. Like Hansman like this, this podcast deploys and runs like this, this podcast deploys and runs like this, this podcast deploys and runs and is managed out of DevOps. and is managed out of DevOps. and is managed out of DevOps. >> I love to hear it. Yeah. This was the >> I love to hear it. Yeah. This was the >> I love to hear it. Yeah. This was the more that the more that we spoke with more that the more that we spoke with more that the more that we spoke with engineers and engineering leaders about engineers and engineering leaders about engineers and engineering leaders about Azure DevOps, the more it was like, Azure DevOps, the more it was like, Azure DevOps, the more it was like, wait, this is a missed opportunity. It's wait, this is a missed opportunity. It's wait, this is a missed opportunity. It's like these are folks in at large like these are folks in at large like these are folks in at large enterprises that need the type of enterprises that need the type of enterprises that need the type of support to leverage AI tools the same support to leverage AI tools the same support to leverage AI tools the same way others can um on different uh way others can um on different uh way others can um on different uh infrastructure. Why can't they be infrastructure. Why can't they be infrastructure. Why can't they be supported too? And that's when the supported too? And that's when the supported too? And that's when the engineers here at Cotto just got, you engineers here at Cotto just got, you engineers here at Cotto just got, you know, got to work. And it was some know, got to work. And it was some know, got to work. And it was some months long, I think, of of being able months long, I think, of of being able months long, I think, of of being able to build that out to make sure that you to build that out to make sure that you to build that out to make sure that you get the same experience if you were on get the same experience if you were on get the same experience if you were on GitHub that you are on Azure. And it was GitHub that you are on Azure. And it was GitHub that you are on Azure. And it was worth it. really excited about that worth it. really excited about that worth it. really excited about that because you know um like I like we said because you know um like I like we said because you know um like I like we said it's one thing to work in isolation it's one thing to work in isolation it's one thing to work in isolation um on the easiest to access tools or um on the easiest to access tools or um on the easiest to access tools or most tools that people are using but most tools that people are using but most tools that people are using but what if you're on the job and this these what if you're on the job and this these what if you're on the job and this these particular tools are something else is particular tools are something else is particular tools are something else is what you use well we want to be able to what you use well we want to be able to what you use well we want to be able to support support support >> now I know we mentioned we know we >> now I know we mentioned we know we >> now I know we mentioned we know we mentioned Twitter and you know there's mentioned Twitter and you know there's mentioned Twitter and you know there's aspects of Twitter that are just an aspects of Twitter that are just an aspects of Twitter that are just an absolute dumpster fire I see you on absolute dumpster fire I see you on absolute dumpster fire I see you on LinkedIn as well and I also see you not LinkedIn as well and I also see you not LinkedIn as well and I also see you not just talking about AI tools on Twitter, just talking about AI tools on Twitter, just talking about AI tools on Twitter, but also talking about like AI companies but also talking about like AI companies but also talking about like AI companies that they're built for business that they're built for business that they're built for business incentives. They have really high incentives. They have really high incentives. They have really high evaluations. Like it's not the AI that's

evaluations. Like it's not the AI that's evaluations. Like it's not the AI that's dangerous. It's like the person holding dangerous. It's like the person holding dangerous. It's like the person holding the AI and the AI and the AI and >> pounding you on the head with it. Do you >> pounding you on the head with it. Do you >> pounding you on the head with it. Do you how do you find those kind of takes on how do you find those kind of takes on how do you find those kind of takes on Twitter when everyone is so, for lack of Twitter when everyone is so, for lack of Twitter when everyone is so, for lack of a better word, like crypto bro about a better word, like crypto bro about a better word, like crypto bro about their excitement around uh about AI? their excitement around uh about AI? their excitement around uh about AI? It's like, you know, I try to be as It's like, you know, I try to be as It's like, you know, I try to be as balanced and as pragmatic about this as balanced and as pragmatic about this as balanced and as pragmatic about this as possible. Like I I'm so excited about possible. Like I I'm so excited about possible. Like I I'm so excited about the positive potential the positive potential the positive potential >> what AI can do for society and I'm also >> what AI can do for society and I'm also >> what AI can do for society and I'm also very well aware that there is nothing very well aware that there is nothing very well aware that there is nothing new under the sun new under the sun new under the sun >> and humans are terribly predictable and >> and humans are terribly predictable and >> and humans are terribly predictable and like on a much higher level and a macro like on a much higher level and a macro like on a much higher level and a macro uh level. uh level. uh level. >> Mhm. And and that means that when you >> Mhm. And and that means that when you >> Mhm. And and that means that when you have a tool, which is AI, just a tool, have a tool, which is AI, just a tool, have a tool, which is AI, just a tool, you can choose to leverage that for you can choose to leverage that for you can choose to leverage that for good, good, good, >> leverage that for bad. So I never ever >> leverage that for bad. So I never ever >> leverage that for bad. So I never ever want to u dismiss the power of people want to u dismiss the power of people want to u dismiss the power of people leveraging things that would uh leveraging things that would uh leveraging things that would uh leveraging a tool for for bad um for leveraging a tool for for bad um for leveraging a tool for for bad um for society.

society. society. >> Yeah. I mean, it is it is a power tool, >> Yeah. I mean, it is it is a power tool, >> Yeah. I mean, it is it is a power tool, right? And you can chop you can take a right? And you can chop you can take a right? And you can chop you can take a a chainsaw and you can chop down trees a chainsaw and you can chop down trees a chainsaw and you can chop down trees and you can chop down people and you and you can chop down people and you and you can chop down people and you have to treat these things with the have to treat these things with the have to treat these things with the respect and you need to know which is respect and you need to know which is respect and you need to know which is the pointy end the pointy end the pointy end >> of the tool so that people don't get >> of the tool so that people don't get >> of the tool so that people don't get hurt. It is challenging and sometimes hurt. It is challenging and sometimes hurt. It is challenging and sometimes helpless feeling that it's like hey I helpless feeling that it's like hey I helpless feeling that it's like hey I can show you how things can be better if can show you how things can be better if can show you how things can be better if you use this tool. like I'm, you know, you use this tool. like I'm, you know, you use this tool. like I'm, you know, I'm off quote unquote selling my things I'm off quote unquote selling my things I'm off quote unquote selling my things in my day job and talking about Copilot in my day job and talking about Copilot in my day job and talking about Copilot CLI and all these different cool models CLI and all these different cool models CLI and all these different cool models like Opus and stuff like that, but I'm like Opus and stuff like that, but I'm like Opus and stuff like that, but I'm also acknowledging that people like are also acknowledging that people like are also acknowledging that people like are afraid and it's like I don't want anyone afraid and it's like I don't want anyone afraid and it's like I don't want anyone to lose their job. I want people to be to lose their job. I want people to be to lose their job. I want people to be excited about how this will make your excited about how this will make your excited about how this will make your job suck less job suck less job suck less >> and you do stuff you couldn't do before, >> and you do stuff you couldn't do before, >> and you do stuff you couldn't do before, you know? you know? you know? >> Right. Right. There's a general fear I >> Right. Right. There's a general fear I >> Right. Right. There's a general fear I think when not just developers but so think when not just developers but so think when not just developers but so many folks about um is this going to be many folks about um is this going to be many folks about um is this going to be a tool that replaces me and what I want a tool that replaces me and what I want a tool that replaces me and what I want my my personal mindset really is that my my personal mindset really is that my my personal mindset really is that [snorts] because I am really interested [snorts] because I am really interested [snorts] because I am really interested in emerging tech technology and because in emerging tech technology and because in emerging tech technology and because I like to be forward thinking about I like to be forward thinking about I like to be forward thinking about where do [clears throat] I see myself in where do [clears throat] I see myself in where do [clears throat] I see myself in two years or in five years I'm two years or in five years I'm two years or in five years I'm constantly thinking about How can I make constantly thinking about How can I make constantly thinking about How can I make sure I'm getting ahead of things? And sure I'm getting ahead of things? And sure I'm getting ahead of things? And what I would love to see is more folks what I would love to see is more folks what I would love to see is more folks start to do that like self audit.

start to do that like self audit. start to do that like self audit. >> If there is fear, you can actually >> If there is fear, you can actually >> If there is fear, you can actually transform that energy of fear to figure transform that energy of fear to figure transform that energy of fear to figure out well, how do I want to get ahead by out well, how do I want to get ahead by out well, how do I want to get ahead by educating myself or empowering myself or educating myself or empowering myself or educating myself or empowering myself or considering a different a couple considering a different a couple considering a different a couple different career trajectories? Um, yeah. different career trajectories? Um, yeah. different career trajectories? Um, yeah. And that's maybe that's not the best or And that's maybe that's not the best or And that's maybe that's not the best or I guess the most positive answer, but it I guess the most positive answer, but it I guess the most positive answer, but it is a way to empower yourself thinking is a way to empower yourself thinking is a way to empower yourself thinking through. through. through. >> Yeah, it is challenging because you you >> Yeah, it is challenging because you you >> Yeah, it is challenging because you you have to contextualize how you exist in have to contextualize how you exist in have to contextualize how you exist in this time and what you do to fight this time and what you do to fight this time and what you do to fight against the things that suck, but also against the things that suck, but also against the things that suck, but also to promote the things that don't suck, to promote the things that don't suck, to promote the things that don't suck, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Do you feel like you're doing a a great >> Do you feel like you're doing a a great >> Do you feel like you're doing a a great job of that with, you know, the work job of that with, you know, the work job of that with, you know, the work that you do? that you do? that you do? I I always say that I want to if I work I I always say that I want to if I work I I always say that I want to if I work at a company, the company may not be at a company, the company may not be at a company, the company may not be perfect, but at least it'll be better perfect, but at least it'll be better perfect, but at least it'll be better that I'm there than if I wasn't there. that I'm there than if I wasn't there. that I'm there than if I wasn't there. And while the bigger the company, the And while the bigger the company, the And while the bigger the company, the more likely that that company does more likely that that company does more likely that that company does something dumb or problematic, but at something dumb or problematic, but at something dumb or problematic, but at the same time, uh, I can influence the same time, uh, I can influence the same time, uh, I can influence things and be a lever for positivity and things and be a lever for positivity and things and be a lever for positivity and change on the inside versus the the out.

change on the inside versus the the out. change on the inside versus the the out. And then, you know, when it doesn't work And then, you know, when it doesn't work And then, you know, when it doesn't work anymore, I'll go and I'll teach high anymore, I'll go and I'll teach high anymore, I'll go and I'll teach high school science. school science. school science. >> I love that. Absolutely. [laughter] >> I love that. Absolutely. [laughter] >> I love that. Absolutely. [laughter] Well, that's that was like a perfect Well, that's that was like a perfect Well, that's that was like a perfect conclusive u I guess wisdom nugget right conclusive u I guess wisdom nugget right conclusive u I guess wisdom nugget right there. there. there. >> Well, that's very kind. The show was >> Well, that's very kind. The show was >> Well, that's very kind. The show was about you, but I appreciate the about you, but I appreciate the about you, but I appreciate the compliment. [laughter] Well, thank you compliment. [laughter] Well, thank you compliment. [laughter] Well, thank you so much for hanging out with me. Folks so much for hanging out with me. Folks so much for hanging out with me. Folks can check out Kodo Q.I. You can have AI powered code reviews You can have AI powered code reviews with the number one AI code review with the number one AI code review with the number one AI code review agent. This is not a sponsored show. agent. This is not a sponsored show. agent. This is not a sponsored show. This is just a really cool exploration This is just a really cool exploration This is just a really cool exploration with Nana and the work that she and the with Nana and the work that she and the with Nana and the work that she and the folks over at Kodo are doing. So check folks over at Kodo are doing. So check folks over at Kodo are doing. So check it out and you can check her out on uh it out and you can check her out on uh it out and you can check her out on uh everywhere that social media uh exists. everywhere that social media uh exists. everywhere that social media uh exists. Thank you so much Na and Dukquay for Thank you so much Na and Dukquay for Thank you so much Na and Dukquay for hanging out with me today. hanging out with me today. hanging out with me today. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> This has been another episode of Hansel >> This has been another episode of Hansel >> This has been another episode of Hansel Minutes and we'll see you again next Minutes and we'll see you again next Minutes and we'll see you again next week.