Robots, Nukes, and AI: A Career at the Frontier with Maynard Holliday

Let let's fast forward to the outbreak Let let's fast forward to the outbreak of the UK, you know, Ukraine Russia of the UK, you know, Ukraine Russia of the UK, you know, Ukraine Russia conflict. I'm sitting in the Pentagon, conflict. I'm sitting in the Pentagon, conflict. I'm sitting in the Pentagon, you know, in my position, you know, as you know, in my position, you know, as you know, in my position, you know, as assistant secretary uh for critical assistant secretary uh for critical assistant secretary uh for critical technology, and I get a message on my technology, and I get a message on my technology, and I get a message on my LinkedIn profile. LinkedIn profile. LinkedIn profile. >> Oh, wow. >> Oh, wow. >> Oh, wow. >> Cuz that's the only social media I'm on >> Cuz that's the only social media I'm on >> Cuz that's the only social media I'm on from the people who I used to work with from the people who I used to work with from the people who I used to work with at Chernobyl. And they were like, "Help! at Chernobyl. And they were like, "Help! at Chernobyl. And they were like, "Help! The Russians have come and have damaged The Russians have come and have damaged The Russians have come and have damaged our equipment. We need help." Hey our equipment. We need help." Hey our equipment. We need help." Hey friends, I'm Scott Hansselman and it's friends, I'm Scott Hansselman and it's friends, I'm Scott Hansselman and it's another episode of Hansel Minutes. Today another episode of Hansel Minutes. Today another episode of Hansel Minutes. Today I have the distinct pleasure of chatting I have the distinct pleasure of chatting I have the distinct pleasure of chatting with Maynard Holiday. I could spend the with Maynard Holiday. I could spend the with Maynard Holiday. I could spend the next 30 minutes talking about Maynard next 30 minutes talking about Maynard next 30 minutes talking about Maynard Holiday and all the things that he's Holiday and all the things that he's Holiday and all the things that he's done. uh he performed the duties of done. uh he performed the duties of done. uh he performed the duties of assistant secretary of defense for assistant secretary of defense for assistant secretary of defense for critical technologies in the office of critical technologies in the office of critical technologies in the office of the under secretary of defense for the under secretary of defense for the under secretary of defense for research and engineering and he has been research and engineering and he has been research and engineering and he has been a roboticist probably since he could a roboticist probably since he could a roboticist probably since he could walk. His resume is long and storied and walk. His resume is long and storied and walk. His resume is long and storied and we are very fortunate to have him on the we are very fortunate to have him on the we are very fortunate to have him on the show today. How are you sir?

show today. How are you sir? show today. How are you sir? >> All right, good to be with you Scott. So >> All right, good to be with you Scott. So >> All right, good to be with you Scott. So I we have to point out for folks that I we have to point out for folks that I we have to point out for folks that are listening and not seeing this, some are listening and not seeing this, some are listening and not seeing this, some folks will see it on YouTube, some folks folks will see it on YouTube, some folks folks will see it on YouTube, some folks will be listening in their car, but will be listening in their car, but will be listening in their car, but behind you is a wonderful uh series of behind you is a wonderful uh series of behind you is a wonderful uh series of Marvel characters. I see Captain America Marvel characters. I see Captain America Marvel characters. I see Captain America there in the form of Falcon. I see there in the form of Falcon. I see there in the form of Falcon. I see Storm. I see Black Panther. Are you a Storm. I see Black Panther. Are you a Storm. I see Black Panther. Are you a comic nerd from way back? I am original comic nerd from way back? I am original comic nerd from way back? I am original Marvel Marvel Marvel uh true believer uh from the uh Stan uh true believer uh from the uh Stan uh true believer uh from the uh Stan Stanley Jack Kirby years uh and uh some Stanley Jack Kirby years uh and uh some Stanley Jack Kirby years uh and uh some of my early motivations of my early motivations of my early motivations come from the the comic realm come from the the comic realm come from the the comic realm Iron Man Iron Man Iron Man very important. very important. very important. >> Yeah. you know, Tony Stark has no >> Yeah. you know, Tony Stark has no >> Yeah. you know, Tony Stark has no superpower but his mind. superpower but his mind. superpower but his mind. >> And and so that made an impression on >> And and so that made an impression on >> And and so that made an impression on me, you know, as a young young boy. And me, you know, as a young young boy. And me, you know, as a young young boy. And then to see reflections then to see reflections then to see reflections in comics of people of African descent in comics of people of African descent in comics of people of African descent in positions of power, authority and and in positions of power, authority and and in positions of power, authority and and knowledge and knowledge and knowledge and Black Panther, you know, Tala in the Black Panther, you know, Tala in the Black Panther, you know, Tala in the comics comics comics is the chief scientist of Wakanda, not is the chief scientist of Wakanda, not is the chief scientist of Wakanda, not Shuri as depicted in the current MCU.

Shuri as depicted in the current MCU. Shuri as depicted in the current MCU. Um, and so Tchala, you know, in his uh Um, and so Tchala, you know, in his uh Um, and so Tchala, you know, in his uh instantiation in the comics was an early instantiation in the comics was an early instantiation in the comics was an early role model for me as well. role model for me as well. role model for me as well. >> And also people can see you've got the >> And also people can see you've got the >> And also people can see you've got the uh looks like NCC 1701, the original uh looks like NCC 1701, the original uh looks like NCC 1701, the original Enterprise in the back there, Enterprise in the back there, Enterprise in the back there, >> which I would assume then means that >> which I would assume then means that >> which I would assume then means that you're a Treker or a Treky Abending on you're a Treker or a Treky Abending on you're a Treker or a Treky Abending on who you ask. who you ask. who you ask. >> And uh it's worth noting, of course, >> And uh it's worth noting, of course, >> And uh it's worth noting, of course, that uh you know, Richard Drom was in that uh you know, Richard Drom was in that uh you know, Richard Drom was in the original series, the original series, the original series, >> right? the one of the one of the chief >> right? the one of the one of the chief >> right? the one of the one of the chief geniuses that was compared to Einstein geniuses that was compared to Einstein geniuses that was compared to Einstein he's compared to you know he basically he's compared to you know he basically he's compared to you know he basically created like all the computers in the created like all the computers in the created like all the computers in the 23rd century and he did it when he was 23rd century and he did it when he was 23rd century and he did it when he was in his mid20s in his mid20s in his mid20s >> right >> right >> right >> was it so important to see that when you >> was it so important to see that when you >> was it so important to see that when you were growing up and just say yep I can were growing up and just say yep I can were growing up and just say yep I can do that too do that too do that too >> absolutely uh it was uh pivotal in in my >> absolutely uh it was uh pivotal in in my >> absolutely uh it was uh pivotal in in my uh you know early development to see uh you know early development to see uh you know early development to see that strong um you know, African, well, that strong um you know, African, well, that strong um you know, African, well, not American, you know, he was from some not American, you know, he was from some not American, you know, he was from some other planet, uh you know, by the 23rd other planet, uh you know, by the 23rd other planet, uh you know, by the 23rd century, but to see uh him represented century, but to see uh him represented century, but to see uh him represented and as you said, Scott, you know, he and as you said, Scott, you know, he and as you said, Scott, you know, he architected, you know, the uh the architected, you know, the uh the architected, you know, the uh the compute for Starfleet, compute for Starfleet, compute for Starfleet, >> right? Basically, the cloud, Starfleet's >> right? Basically, the cloud, Starfleet's >> right? Basically, the cloud, Starfleet's cloud, cloud, cloud, >> right? Right. And so that was a powerful >> right? Right. And so that was a powerful >> right? Right. And so that was a powerful um you know inspiration for me as a um you know inspiration for me as a um you know inspiration for me as a young boy who was you know looking to

young boy who was you know looking to young boy who was you know looking to you know kind of define what I wanted to you know kind of define what I wanted to you know kind of define what I wanted to do with with my life and both Tony Stark do with with my life and both Tony Stark do with with my life and both Tony Stark Tala Richard Drom early inspirations Tala Richard Drom early inspirations Tala Richard Drom early inspirations for the career that I eventually uh for the career that I eventually uh for the career that I eventually uh embarked upon. And you went to uh embarked upon. And you went to uh embarked upon. And you went to uh Carnegie Melon for your undergrad and Carnegie Melon for your undergrad and Carnegie Melon for your undergrad and then you finished up with a masters from then you finished up with a masters from then you finished up with a masters from Stanford, Stanford, Stanford, >> right? Yeah. So Carnegie Melon um where >> right? Yeah. So Carnegie Melon um where >> right? Yeah. So Carnegie Melon um where I majored in uh mechanical engineering I majored in uh mechanical engineering I majored in uh mechanical engineering and got uh the robotics bug there. Uh and got uh the robotics bug there. Uh and got uh the robotics bug there. Uh was uh uh uh in school when ThreeMile was uh uh uh in school when ThreeMile was uh uh uh in school when ThreeMile Island happened. Island happened. Island happened. >> Oh wow. >> Oh wow. >> Oh wow. and uh Carnegie Melon uh one of the uh and uh Carnegie Melon uh one of the uh and uh Carnegie Melon uh one of the uh now ameriti professors read Whitaker uh now ameriti professors read Whitaker uh now ameriti professors read Whitaker uh the father of field robotics which is the father of field robotics which is the father of field robotics which is the practice of robotics you know in the the practice of robotics you know in the the practice of robotics you know in the environment not in you know factories or environment not in you know factories or environment not in you know factories or or you know very you know controlled or you know very you know controlled or you know very you know controlled environments was contacted by environments was contacted by environments was contacted by Westinghouse the owner of three Mile Westinghouse the owner of three Mile Westinghouse the owner of three Mile Island to develop robotics to help Island to develop robotics to help Island to develop robotics to help characterize what was going on, you characterize what was going on, you characterize what was going on, you know, at 3M Island to make sure, you know, at 3M Island to make sure, you know, at 3M Island to make sure, you know, there were no radioactive know, there were no radioactive know, there were no radioactive leaks and to help remediate it. And so leaks and to help remediate it. And so leaks and to help remediate it. And so that was an early inspiration for the that was an early inspiration for the that was an early inspiration for the robotics that I did later in my career.

robotics that I did later in my career. robotics that I did later in my career. >> Yeah. Because for context, for folks >> Yeah. Because for context, for folks >> Yeah. Because for context, for folks that may not remember, Three-Mile Island that may not remember, Three-Mile Island that may not remember, Three-Mile Island 1979 was a partial meltdown, had minimal 1979 was a partial meltdown, had minimal 1979 was a partial meltdown, had minimal radiation release, but it changed how radiation release, but it changed how radiation release, but it changed how people felt and thought about nuclear. people felt and thought about nuclear. people felt and thought about nuclear. And then Chernobyl happens just 7 years And then Chernobyl happens just 7 years And then Chernobyl happens just 7 years later, except Chernobyl was not a later, except Chernobyl was not a later, except Chernobyl was not a partial meltdown. It was catastrophic partial meltdown. It was catastrophic partial meltdown. It was catastrophic and it wasn't a pressurized water and it wasn't a pressurized water and it wasn't a pressurized water reactor. It was an RBMK uh graphic reactor. It was an RBMK uh graphic reactor. It was an RBMK uh graphic moderated reactor. Right moderated reactor. Right moderated reactor. Right >> at this point now, you're you're out of >> at this point now, you're you're out of >> at this point now, you're you're out of school. Yeah, I'm out of Carnegie Melon. school. Yeah, I'm out of Carnegie Melon. school. Yeah, I'm out of Carnegie Melon. I I had already gotten a scholarship and I I had already gotten a scholarship and I I had already gotten a scholarship and had finished Stanford in 88 uh with a had finished Stanford in 88 uh with a had finished Stanford in 88 uh with a master's of science in mechanical master's of science in mechanical master's of science in mechanical engineering where I concentrated in engineering where I concentrated in engineering where I concentrated in robotics and arms control because I was robotics and arms control because I was robotics and arms control because I was at the Lawrence Livermore National Lab. at the Lawrence Livermore National Lab. at the Lawrence Livermore National Lab. >> And so, as you mentioned, Chernobyl >> And so, as you mentioned, Chernobyl >> And so, as you mentioned, Chernobyl happens. But fast forward to, as they happens. But fast forward to, as they happens. But fast forward to, as they like to say, when peace breaks out in like to say, when peace breaks out in like to say, when peace breaks out in the early 90s and the Soviet Union the early 90s and the Soviet Union the early 90s and the Soviet Union disintegrates, disintegrates, disintegrates, we as a government decide and rightfully we as a government decide and rightfully we as a government decide and rightfully so to, you know, spend a few billion so to, you know, spend a few billion so to, you know, spend a few billion dollars more to help stabilize these dollars more to help stabilize these dollars more to help stabilize these newly independent states. Mhm.

newly independent states. Mhm. newly independent states. Mhm. >> And we wanted to engage >> And we wanted to engage >> And we wanted to engage the Ukrainians the Ukrainians the Ukrainians who in exchange for Western aid sent all who in exchange for Western aid sent all who in exchange for Western aid sent all their nuclear weapons back to Russia and their nuclear weapons back to Russia and their nuclear weapons back to Russia and became for a brief period of time the became for a brief period of time the became for a brief period of time the number three recipient of US foreign aid number three recipient of US foreign aid number three recipient of US foreign aid behind Israel and Egypt. And I was part behind Israel and Egypt. And I was part behind Israel and Egypt. And I was part of that foreign aid in the mid 90s where of that foreign aid in the mid 90s where of that foreign aid in the mid 90s where I I went to Ukraine to work with an I I went to Ukraine to work with an I I went to Ukraine to work with an institute that did the guidance and institute that did the guidance and institute that did the guidance and control for the Soviet ballistic missile control for the Soviet ballistic missile control for the Soviet ballistic missile force force force >> so that they wouldn't migrate to, you >> so that they wouldn't migrate to, you >> so that they wouldn't migrate to, you know, rogue states back then, Iran, know, rogue states back then, Iran, know, rogue states back then, Iran, Iraq, North Korea. So we wanted to Iraq, North Korea. So we wanted to Iraq, North Korea. So we wanted to gainfully employ them on things of gainfully employ them on things of gainfully employ them on things of mutual interest. And when we got there, mutual interest. And when we got there, mutual interest. And when we got there, they said, "Hey, we need help at they said, "Hey, we need help at they said, "Hey, we need help at Chernobyl." And so that's how I began Chernobyl." And so that's how I began Chernobyl." And so that's how I began working with the engineering team at working with the engineering team at working with the engineering team at Chernobyl on, excuse me, how to Chernobyl on, excuse me, how to Chernobyl on, excuse me, how to stabilize stabilize stabilize the and characterize the sarcophagus the and characterize the sarcophagus the and characterize the sarcophagus that was hastily built right after the that was hastily built right after the that was hastily built right after the accident.

accident. accident. >> So the sarcophagus is this thing that >> So the sarcophagus is this thing that >> So the sarcophagus is this thing that goes around it. It's a containment zone. goes around it. It's a containment zone. goes around it. It's a containment zone. Containment, Containment, Containment, >> right? Exactly. So, it was hastily built >> right? Exactly. So, it was hastily built >> right? Exactly. So, it was hastily built right after the accident and it was right after the accident and it was right after the accident and it was crumbling and they feared a a secondary crumbling and they feared a a secondary crumbling and they feared a a secondary release of radioactive material. So, release of radioactive material. So, release of radioactive material. So, they needed a robot to be able to go they needed a robot to be able to go they needed a robot to be able to go into the basement uh specifically room into the basement uh specifically room into the basement uh specifically room 305 where what was called the elephant's 305 where what was called the elephant's 305 where what was called the elephant's foot which was a amalgam of uh graphite foot which was a amalgam of uh graphite foot which was a amalgam of uh graphite you know the as you pointed out you know you know the as you pointed out you know you know the as you pointed out you know the fuel plus you know the uh uh um the fuel plus you know the uh uh um the fuel plus you know the uh uh um radioactive or radiological absorbing radioactive or radiological absorbing radioactive or radiological absorbing material the helicopters drop to help material the helicopters drop to help material the helicopters drop to help mitigate you know, the uh um you know, mitigate you know, the uh um you know, mitigate you know, the uh um you know, reaction, you know, of the explosion reaction, you know, of the explosion reaction, you know, of the explosion that happened. And so there's this that happened. And so there's this that happened. And so there's this amalgam of material that had solidified amalgam of material that had solidified amalgam of material that had solidified and, you know, they needed to and, you know, they needed to and, you know, they needed to characterize, you know, what the, you characterize, you know, what the, you characterize, you know, what the, you know, the radiological, you know, know, the radiological, you know, know, the radiological, you know, footprint, you know, both virtually and footprint, you know, both virtually and footprint, you know, both virtually and figuratively, figuratively, figuratively, uh, uh, was. And so the robot to get uh, uh, was. And so the robot to get uh, uh, was. And so the robot to get into this room. So we we we into this room. So we we we into this room. So we we we helped you know design that with help helped you know design that with help helped you know design that with help from Professor Whitaker and his spin-off from Professor Whitaker and his spin-off from Professor Whitaker and his spin-off company called Red Zone that did the company called Red Zone that did the company called Red Zone that did the robots for Three-Mile Island, robots for Three-Mile Island, robots for Three-Mile Island, >> right? So Red Zone comes up with an >> right? So Red Zone comes up with an >> right? So Red Zone comes up with an agreement between Lawrence Liverour agreement between Lawrence Liverour agreement between Lawrence Liverour National Laboratory and NASA and the DOE National Laboratory and NASA and the DOE National Laboratory and NASA and the DOE and Chernobyl. This is all these groups

and Chernobyl. This is all these groups and Chernobyl. This is all these groups working together back when everyone back working together back when everyone back working together back when everyone back when everyone could work together, when everyone could work together, when everyone could work together, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> And said this is a problem. We got to do >> And said this is a problem. We got to do >> And said this is a problem. We got to do this. But you can't get anywhere near it this. But you can't get anywhere near it this. But you can't get anywhere near it as a human. What does radiation do as a as a human. What does radiation do as a as a human. What does radiation do as a robot to a robot? Is it a processor robot to a robot? Is it a processor robot to a robot? Is it a processor issue? Is it cameras? Is it wiring? issue? Is it cameras? Is it wiring? issue? Is it cameras? Is it wiring? >> Yeah. So, kind of all of the above. It >> Yeah. So, kind of all of the above. It >> Yeah. So, kind of all of the above. It it it embriddles uh uh you know elastors it it embriddles uh uh you know elastors it it embriddles uh uh you know elastors and and also has a an effect on and and also has a an effect on and and also has a an effect on electronics. And so one of the unique electronics. And so one of the unique electronics. And so one of the unique things uh you know that we did for the things uh you know that we did for the things uh you know that we did for the robot was make it modular in the sense robot was make it modular in the sense robot was make it modular in the sense that uh components could be unplugged that uh components could be unplugged that uh components could be unplugged and you know then decontaminated. But and you know then decontaminated. But and you know then decontaminated. But the the key uh the the key uh the the key uh you know design feature was that we made you know design feature was that we made you know design feature was that we made it tethered so that most of the it tethered so that most of the it tethered so that most of the electronics were offboard and you know electronics were offboard and you know electronics were offboard and you know the robot just got signals the robot just got signals the robot just got signals >> and so there was a control panel >> and so there was a control panel >> and so there was a control panel >> and so we you know this is well before >> and so we you know this is well before >> and so we you know this is well before you know more robust kind of wireless you know more robust kind of wireless you know more robust kind of wireless technologies and so the the robot was technologies and so the the robot was technologies and so the the robot was tethered. The tether was structural, tethered. The tether was structural, tethered. The tether was structural, meaning it, you know, if the robot meaning it, you know, if the robot meaning it, you know, if the robot failed, it had enough strength that you failed, it had enough strength that you failed, it had enough strength that you could, you know, pull the tether and could, you know, pull the tether and could, you know, pull the tether and then pull the robot out. And uh another then pull the robot out. And uh another then pull the robot out. And uh another key design feature was we polished lead key design feature was we polished lead key design feature was we polished lead to optical quality so that the CCD to optical quality so that the CCD to optical quality so that the CCD cameras would not have to look directly cameras would not have to look directly cameras would not have to look directly into the solid angle of you know

into the solid angle of you know into the solid angle of you know radiation and then cause the CCD pixels radiation and then cause the CCD pixels radiation and then cause the CCD pixels to ionize. And so yeah, so this the CCDs to ionize. And so yeah, so this the CCDs to ionize. And so yeah, so this the CCDs were offaxis, you know, looking at, you were offaxis, you know, looking at, you were offaxis, you know, looking at, you know, reflection where, you know, lead know, reflection where, you know, lead know, reflection where, you know, lead would would shield. So you only get the would would shield. So you only get the would would shield. So you only get the optical. optical. optical. >> So you bounced you bounced it off of a >> So you bounced you bounced it off of a >> So you bounced you bounced it off of a lead mirror. lead mirror. lead mirror. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Wow. It's like pinhole cameras or how >> Wow. It's like pinhole cameras or how >> Wow. It's like pinhole cameras or how you know. you know. you know. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Interesting. Interesting. Would you >> Interesting. Interesting. Would you >> Interesting. Interesting. Would you consider Pioneer this robot a robot or a consider Pioneer this robot a robot or a consider Pioneer this robot a robot or a remotely operated machine? remotely operated machine? remotely operated machine? >> Teley operated. Yeah. >> Teley operated. Yeah. >> Teley operated. Yeah. >> Teley operated. Okay. >> Teley operated. Okay. >> Teley operated. Okay. >> Yeah. So that's how I'd characterize it. >> Yeah. So that's how I'd characterize it. >> Yeah. So that's how I'd characterize it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> The only thing that was automated was >> The only thing that was automated was >> The only thing that was automated was the vision system that NASA developed the vision system that NASA developed the vision system that NASA developed >> to map the room. And so you didn't have >> to map the room. And so you didn't have >> to map the room. And so you didn't have to manually actuate uh the vision head. to manually actuate uh the vision head. to manually actuate uh the vision head. >> You know, it could >> You know, it could >> You know, it could auto automatically uh survey the room auto automatically uh survey the room auto automatically uh survey the room and create a a 3D map. Mhm. There's and create a a 3D map. Mhm. There's and create a a 3D map. Mhm. There's there's a bunch of funny people online there's a bunch of funny people online there's a bunch of funny people online that are looking at like the moon that are looking at like the moon that are looking at like the moon footage and now the Mars footage and footage and now the Mars footage and footage and now the Mars footage and they make the comment that we have these they make the comment that we have these they make the comment that we have these better cameras on our iPhones now than better cameras on our iPhones now than better cameras on our iPhones now than we, you know, we ever had when we were we, you know, we ever had when we were we, you know, we ever had when we were off in in in space. And they've also off in in in space. And they've also off in in in space. And they've also noted that the Loch Ness monster and noted that the Loch Ness monster and noted that the Loch Ness monster and Bigfoot and all of these things that we Bigfoot and all of these things that we Bigfoot and all of these things that we want to see have never shown up since want to see have never shown up since want to see have never shown up since everybody got a 4K camera in their everybody got a 4K camera in their everybody got a 4K camera in their hands. Tell me about the camera hands. Tell me about the camera hands. Tell me about the camera technology. What are we looking at here?

technology. What are we looking at here? technology. What are we looking at here? Is it analog? Is it low resolution? Are Is it analog? Is it low resolution? Are Is it analog? Is it low resolution? Are you able to see what's going on? you able to see what's going on? you able to see what's going on? >> Yeah. So, it was low resolution, you >> Yeah. So, it was low resolution, you >> Yeah. So, it was low resolution, you know. So, think about it. You know, this know. So, think about it. You know, this know. So, think about it. You know, this is, you know, 19 early9s technology. is, you know, 19 early9s technology. is, you know, 19 early9s technology. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And yeah, nowhere near, you know, 4K >> And yeah, nowhere near, you know, 4K >> And yeah, nowhere near, you know, 4K resolution. And and the other thing that resolution. And and the other thing that resolution. And and the other thing that happened was once we delivered the happened was once we delivered the happened was once we delivered the robot, the Ukrainian government said, robot, the Ukrainian government said, robot, the Ukrainian government said, you know, all the data at Chernobyl is a you know, all the data at Chernobyl is a you know, all the data at Chernobyl is a is classified by the state. is classified by the state. is classified by the state. >> Oh no. And so that's one of the you know >> Oh no. And so that's one of the you know >> Oh no. And so that's one of the you know disappointments that you know the data disappointments that you know the data disappointments that you know the data was never shared with NASA because one was never shared with NASA because one was never shared with NASA because one of the uh attractants for NASA to even of the uh attractants for NASA to even of the uh attractants for NASA to even join the project was they wanted an join the project was they wanted an join the project was they wanted an analog for an interplanetary environment analog for an interplanetary environment analog for an interplanetary environment you know because they go to Mars and and you know because they go to Mars and and you know because they go to Mars and and this is you know still to this date you this is you know still to this date you this is you know still to this date you know the world's worst nuclear accident. know the world's worst nuclear accident. know the world's worst nuclear accident. So this was an analog for an So this was an analog for an So this was an analog for an interplanetary environment and they interplanetary environment and they interplanetary environment and they wanted the the data which unfortunately wanted the the data which unfortunately wanted the the data which unfortunately they they never got.

they they never got. they they never got. >> Yeah. The So even now is that you can't >> Yeah. The So even now is that you can't >> Yeah. The So even now is that you can't get them on the corn and get that data get them on the corn and get that data get them on the corn and get that data back. Uh back. Uh back. Uh >> so let let's fast forward to the >> so let let's fast forward to the >> so let let's fast forward to the outbreak of the U you know Ukraine outbreak of the U you know Ukraine outbreak of the U you know Ukraine Russia conflict. I'm sitting in the Russia conflict. I'm sitting in the Russia conflict. I'm sitting in the Pentagon, you know, in my position, you Pentagon, you know, in my position, you Pentagon, you know, in my position, you know, as assistant secretary uh for know, as assistant secretary uh for know, as assistant secretary uh for critical technology, and I get a message critical technology, and I get a message critical technology, and I get a message on my LinkedIn profile. on my LinkedIn profile. on my LinkedIn profile. >> Oh, wow. >> Oh, wow. >> Oh, wow. >> Cuz that's the only social media I'm on >> Cuz that's the only social media I'm on >> Cuz that's the only social media I'm on from the people who I used to work with from the people who I used to work with from the people who I used to work with at Chernobyl. And they were like, "Help. at Chernobyl. And they were like, "Help. at Chernobyl. And they were like, "Help. The Russians have come and have damaged The Russians have come and have damaged The Russians have come and have damaged our equipment. We need help." And so our equipment. We need help." And so our equipment. We need help." And so what I was able to do was put them in what I was able to do was put them in what I was able to do was put them in touch with a Department of Energy touch with a Department of Energy touch with a Department of Energy nuclear safety working group because the nuclear safety working group because the nuclear safety working group because the Russians had taken over Zaparicha if Russians had taken over Zaparicha if Russians had taken over Zaparicha if people remember people remember people remember >> which is Europe's you know biggest >> which is Europe's you know biggest >> which is Europe's you know biggest nuclear power plant. They had taken it nuclear power plant. They had taken it nuclear power plant. They had taken it over and were lobbing over and were lobbing over and were lobbing shells at the Ukrainians because they shells at the Ukrainians because they shells at the Ukrainians because they knew the Ukrainians couldn't retaliate knew the Ukrainians couldn't retaliate knew the Ukrainians couldn't retaliate because it was a nuclear site. And so because it was a nuclear site. And so because it was a nuclear site. And so anyway, the Russians are at Chernobyl anyway, the Russians are at Chernobyl anyway, the Russians are at Chernobyl busting, busting, busting, you know, I I won't swear, busting stuff you know, I I won't swear, busting stuff you know, I I won't swear, busting stuff up. Uh and and so what I did is I put up. Uh and and so what I did is I put up. Uh and and so what I did is I put them in touch with this nuclear safety them in touch with this nuclear safety them in touch with this nuclear safety group who was able to group who was able to group who was able to get them computers and other things to

get them computers and other things to get them computers and other things to help them monitor the condition of the help them monitor the condition of the help them monitor the condition of the the new sarcophagus which I think was the new sarcophagus which I think was the new sarcophagus which I think was completed you know probably less than a completed you know probably less than a completed you know probably less than a decade ago now by um the European Bank decade ago now by um the European Bank decade ago now by um the European Bank for reconstruction. So they put a, you for reconstruction. So they put a, you for reconstruction. So they put a, you know, large like hanger type structure know, large like hanger type structure know, large like hanger type structure over a Chernobyl unit 4, but then the over a Chernobyl unit 4, but then the over a Chernobyl unit 4, but then the Russians like attacked it and flew a Russians like attacked it and flew a Russians like attacked it and flew a drone into it and caused it, you know, drone into it and caused it, you know, drone into it and caused it, you know, put a hole in it. put a hole in it. put a hole in it. So yeah, so before this conflict broke So yeah, so before this conflict broke So yeah, so before this conflict broke broke out, they had contacted me because broke out, they had contacted me because broke out, they had contacted me because they wanted help designing robots that they wanted help designing robots that they wanted help designing robots that would be gantry like to disassemble the would be gantry like to disassemble the would be gantry like to disassemble the original sarcophagus and original sarcophagus and original sarcophagus and size reduce the nuclear fuel. size reduce the nuclear fuel. size reduce the nuclear fuel. >> Wow. Wow. In in your role now, like are >> Wow. Wow. In in your role now, like are >> Wow. Wow. In in your role now, like are you connected to these things? Is it one you connected to these things? Is it one you connected to these things? Is it one of those things where with all due of those things where with all due of those things where with all due respect, there's like aging people in respect, there's like aging people in respect, there's like aging people in this area that know stuff and when when this area that know stuff and when when this area that know stuff and when when I'm gone, when you're gone, who's going I'm gone, when you're gone, who's going I'm gone, when you're gone, who's going to know these things?

to know these things? to know these things? >> Yeah. Yeah. So, great question. You >> Yeah. Yeah. So, great question. You >> Yeah. Yeah. So, great question. You know, I have, you know, my own little know, I have, you know, my own little know, I have, you know, my own little LLC that uh, you know, I strategically LLC that uh, you know, I strategically LLC that uh, you know, I strategically advise companies that have technologies advise companies that have technologies advise companies that have technologies that were germanine to my old portfolio. that were germanine to my old portfolio. that were germanine to my old portfolio. And you know, I just from afar keep tabs And you know, I just from afar keep tabs And you know, I just from afar keep tabs on, you know, what's going on in the the on, you know, what's going on in the the on, you know, what's going on in the the Russia Ukraine conflict. So I haven't Russia Ukraine conflict. So I haven't Russia Ukraine conflict. So I haven't closed the loop with any of the the closed the loop with any of the the closed the loop with any of the the people, you know, back at Chernobyl. You people, you know, back at Chernobyl. You people, you know, back at Chernobyl. You know, the Russians eventually, you know, know, the Russians eventually, you know, know, the Russians eventually, you know, kind of left because they were they were kind of left because they were they were kind of left because they were they were getting irradiated. getting irradiated. getting irradiated. >> Yeah. I mean, nobody wants to be near >> Yeah. I mean, nobody wants to be near >> Yeah. I mean, nobody wants to be near there right now. there right now. there right now. >> And uh and so they left. So I think that >> And uh and so they left. So I think that >> And uh and so they left. So I think that the situation there has has stabilized the situation there has has stabilized the situation there has has stabilized and I think they you know patched the and I think they you know patched the and I think they you know patched the hole in the in the roof um and and so hole in the in the roof um and and so hole in the in the roof um and and so that's as uh you know good as we can uh that's as uh you know good as we can uh that's as uh you know good as we can uh you know expect right now. Pivoting a you know expect right now. Pivoting a you know expect right now. Pivoting a little bit, you helped establish the little bit, you helped establish the little bit, you helped establish the original Defense Innovation Unit original Defense Innovation Unit original Defense Innovation Unit Experimental, which was intended to Experimental, which was intended to Experimental, which was intended to connect the Pentagon with commercial connect the Pentagon with commercial connect the Pentagon with commercial technology companies. And as as a technology companies. And as as a technology companies. And as as a civilian myself who is often talking to civilian myself who is often talking to civilian myself who is often talking to startups, I feel sometimes like founders startups, I feel sometimes like founders startups, I feel sometimes like founders and startup people, they get stars in and startup people, they get stars in and startup people, they get stars in their eyes and they go, "Oh, our product their eyes and they go, "Oh, our product their eyes and they go, "Oh, our product works. We should get the Pentagon to buy works. We should get the Pentagon to buy works. We should get the Pentagon to buy it."

it." it." I'm I'm curious what founders I'm I'm curious what founders I'm I'm curious what founders misunderstand when they have that that misunderstand when they have that that misunderstand when they have that that level of ignorance. level of ignorance. level of ignorance. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. So So So So So So back in 2015, then Secretary Ash Carter back in 2015, then Secretary Ash Carter back in 2015, then Secretary Ash Carter gave a speech at Stanford called gave a speech at Stanford called gave a speech at Stanford called Rewiring the Pentagon. And and in that Rewiring the Pentagon. And and in that Rewiring the Pentagon. And and in that speech, you know, he he rightly pointed speech, you know, he he rightly pointed speech, you know, he he rightly pointed out that, you know, the global market, out that, you know, the global market, out that, you know, the global market, the addressable market, you know, is the addressable market, you know, is the addressable market, you know, is driving innovation and, you know, the driving innovation and, you know, the driving innovation and, you know, the defense department who used to be a a defense department who used to be a a defense department who used to be a a big customer was now a niche customer big customer was now a niche customer big customer was now a niche customer and needed to first and fast follow and needed to first and fast follow and needed to first and fast follow industry. And so he wanted to create industry. And so he wanted to create industry. And so he wanted to create this defense innovation unit to to do this defense innovation unit to to do this defense innovation unit to to do just that. And and so I spent the summer just that. And and so I spent the summer just that. And and so I spent the summer of 2015 talking to my former colleagues of 2015 talking to my former colleagues of 2015 talking to my former colleagues out here in Silicon Valley about what out here in Silicon Valley about what out here in Silicon Valley about what would bring them in to work with the would bring them in to work with the would bring them in to work with the government. And to your earlier point, government. And to your earlier point, government. And to your earlier point, Scott, about what Scott, about what Scott, about what founders sometimes miss is what is the founders sometimes miss is what is the founders sometimes miss is what is the military problem that you're solving.

military problem that you're solving. military problem that you're solving. And so one of the things that we learned And so one of the things that we learned And so one of the things that we learned in doing a survey of other similar in doing a survey of other similar in doing a survey of other similar institutions, you know, Incel has been institutions, you know, Incel has been institutions, you know, Incel has been in the valley for, you know, kind of in the valley for, you know, kind of in the valley for, you know, kind of decades before DIU. And their secret decades before DIU. And their secret decades before DIU. And their secret sauce was being able to write sauce was being able to write sauce was being able to write unclassified problem statements for unclassified problem statements for unclassified problem statements for classified intelligence community classified intelligence community classified intelligence community problems. And problems. And problems. And >> so this is one of the things that that >> so this is one of the things that that >> so this is one of the things that that >> we adopted >> we adopted >> we adopted on at on the DIU side is we on at on the DIU side is we on at on the DIU side is we >> took military you know bespoke military >> took military you know bespoke military >> took military you know bespoke military problems and uh and wrote what we call problems and uh and wrote what we call problems and uh and wrote what we call commercial solutions offerings. So we commercial solutions offerings. So we commercial solutions offerings. So we would put a problem statement, an would put a problem statement, an would put a problem statement, an unclassified problem statement and and unclassified problem statement and and unclassified problem statement and and this is still the case you know with DIU this is still the case you know with DIU this is still the case you know with DIU now on you know the website and open it now on you know the website and open it now on you know the website and open it up to industry you know to startups and up to industry you know to startups and up to industry you know to startups and and so rather than to your earlier point and so rather than to your earlier point and so rather than to your earlier point about a company saying hey you know the about a company saying hey you know the about a company saying hey you know the military should buy this companies can military should buy this companies can military should buy this companies can now look at a problem statement and then now look at a problem statement and then now look at a problem statement and then uh uh uh develop technology or change, you know, develop technology or change, you know, develop technology or change, you know, a given technology or system to solve a given technology or system to solve a given technology or system to solve that uh you know, very specific problem that uh you know, very specific problem that uh you know, very specific problem statement that the commercial solutions statement that the commercial solutions statement that the commercial solutions offering is um is is stating. And so we offering is um is is stating. And so we offering is um is is stating. And so we so DIU has or had you know leazison

so DIU has or had you know leazison so DIU has or had you know leazison officers from all the services who knew officers from all the services who knew officers from all the services who knew um you know from their you know from big um you know from their you know from big um you know from their you know from big army or big navy or big air force what army or big navy or big air force what army or big navy or big air force what problems they would like industry to problems they would like industry to problems they would like industry to solve and and so they would then uh be solve and and so they would then uh be solve and and so they would then uh be able to put these commercial solutions able to put these commercial solutions able to put these commercial solutions offerings out and then like Shark Tank offerings out and then like Shark Tank offerings out and then like Shark Tank get pitches from from these companies, get pitches from from these companies, get pitches from from these companies, you know, and then shortlist them and you know, and then shortlist them and you know, and then shortlist them and then and then get them under contract. then and then get them under contract. then and then get them under contract. And that was one of the things that my And that was one of the things that my And that was one of the things that my former Silicon Valley colleagues told me former Silicon Valley colleagues told me former Silicon Valley colleagues told me was, hey, we need to get these people was, hey, we need to get these people was, hey, we need to get these people under contract, not on a year time under contract, not on a year time under contract, not on a year time scale, but you know, within weeks, two scale, but you know, within weeks, two scale, but you know, within weeks, two months at the at the most because you months at the at the most because you months at the at the most because you got to move at the speed of, you know, got to move at the speed of, you know, got to move at the speed of, you know, Silicon Valley business. Right now, Silicon Valley business. Right now, Silicon Valley business. Right now, you've described uh that products go you've described uh that products go you've described uh that products go through kind of three processes and through kind of three processes and through kind of three processes and there's three potential what you call there's three potential what you call there's three potential what you call valleys of death, places where things valleys of death, places where things valleys of death, places where things stop. stop. stop. >> Going from the lab to a prototype, >> Going from the lab to a prototype, >> Going from the lab to a prototype, that's a moment where you can screw it that's a moment where you can screw it that's a moment where you can screw it up and it's over. From prototype to up and it's over. From prototype to up and it's over. From prototype to product and then from product to scaled product and then from product to scaled product and then from product to scaled production to actually happening and production to actually happening and production to actually happening and then your advisory work is focused on, then your advisory work is focused on, then your advisory work is focused on, you know, crossing that that gap. How you know, crossing that that gap. How you know, crossing that that gap. How often do do companies just fall directly often do do companies just fall directly often do do companies just fall directly into that valley of death? It's like, into that valley of death? It's like, into that valley of death? It's like, hey, work in the lab, but it's not not hey, work in the lab, but it's not not hey, work in the lab, but it's not not going to be production, going to be production, going to be production, >> right? Yeah. So, very often and and the >> right? Yeah. So, very often and and the >> right? Yeah. So, very often and and the defense department, you know, has defense department, you know, has defense department, you know, has recognized this and and when I was in recognized this and and when I was in recognized this and and when I was in office, we stood up the office of

office, we stood up the office of office, we stood up the office of strategic capital, strategic capital, strategic capital, >> which is the only group in the defense >> which is the only group in the defense >> which is the only group in the defense department that is doing loans. Uh and department that is doing loans. Uh and department that is doing loans. Uh and so they loan companies that have capital so they loan companies that have capital so they loan companies that have capital intensive project funds to help them intensive project funds to help them intensive project funds to help them bridge you know those valleys of death bridge you know those valleys of death bridge you know those valleys of death that you described from you know lab to that you described from you know lab to that you described from you know lab to prototype or from prototype to to prototype or from prototype to to prototype or from prototype to to product and then you know uh product to product and then you know uh product to product and then you know uh product to to scale. So yeah, so there's a whole to scale. So yeah, so there's a whole to scale. So yeah, so there's a whole suite of, you know, government programs, suite of, you know, government programs, suite of, you know, government programs, you know, the small business innovation you know, the small business innovation you know, the small business innovation research grants, also known as SBER, and research grants, also known as SBER, and research grants, also known as SBER, and they're they're phased, you know, from they're they're phased, you know, from they're they're phased, you know, from one through three, and the dollars one through three, and the dollars one through three, and the dollars amount go from six figures to, you know, amount go from six figures to, you know, amount go from six figures to, you know, seven figures. And, you know, there's seven figures. And, you know, there's seven figures. And, you know, there's DIU, uh, you know, is is a funding DIU, uh, you know, is is a funding DIU, uh, you know, is is a funding source. They're all the software labs, source. They're all the software labs, source. They're all the software labs, you know, AF works and softworks. Um, so you know, AF works and softworks. Um, so you know, AF works and softworks. Um, so there's a myriad of, you know, funding there's a myriad of, you know, funding there's a myriad of, you know, funding mechanisms to help companies bridge mechanisms to help companies bridge mechanisms to help companies bridge those various valleys of death.

those various valleys of death. those various valleys of death. >> And now we're in a moment where we've >> And now we're in a moment where we've >> And now we're in a moment where we've got cheap drones, arguably cheap and on got cheap drones, arguably cheap and on got cheap drones, arguably cheap and on the edge AI, theoretically small, you the edge AI, theoretically small, you the edge AI, theoretically small, you know, small and mediumsized language know, small and mediumsized language know, small and mediumsized language models that could even run on a drone. models that could even run on a drone. models that could even run on a drone. You worked on a tethered tea tea You worked on a tethered tea tea You worked on a tethered tea tea operated robot. Now, one, if one wanted operated robot. Now, one, if one wanted operated robot. Now, one, if one wanted to, has the the Lego pieces available to to, has the the Lego pieces available to to, has the the Lego pieces available to make a drone. I could do it myself in a make a drone. I could do it myself in a make a drone. I could do it myself in a weekend. I could make a drone that could weekend. I could make a drone that could weekend. I could make a drone that could do something bad and make it autonomous do something bad and make it autonomous do something bad and make it autonomous and send it over anywhere. You've called and send it over anywhere. You've called and send it over anywhere. You've called these high stakes AI. And you've got these high stakes AI. And you've got these high stakes AI. And you've got some strong opinions about what we what some strong opinions about what we what some strong opinions about what we what we should do about these things. We need we should do about these things. We need we should do about these things. We need receipts, receipts, receipts, >> right? Yeah. So these drones, you know, >> right? Yeah. So these drones, you know, >> right? Yeah. So these drones, you know, have changed uh uh you know, warfare. have changed uh uh you know, warfare. have changed uh uh you know, warfare. And you know, when I was in office and And you know, when I was in office and And you know, when I was in office and getting, you know, my regular getting, you know, my regular getting, you know, my regular intelligence briefs, uh you know, we intelligence briefs, uh you know, we intelligence briefs, uh you know, we would see, you know, these uh one-way would see, you know, these uh one-way would see, you know, these uh one-way attack drones essentially, you know, attack drones essentially, you know, attack drones essentially, you know, almost single-handedly obsoleting armor almost single-handedly obsoleting armor almost single-handedly obsoleting armor as a um you know, a vehicle of a as a um you know, a vehicle of a as a um you know, a vehicle of a maneuver.

maneuver. maneuver. And and so unless you know you had you And and so unless you know you had you And and so unless you know you had you know some very um robust you know cages know some very um robust you know cages know some very um robust you know cages and and and and and and well even the explosive armor that well even the explosive armor that well even the explosive armor that protects you from side projectiles you protects you from side projectiles you protects you from side projectiles you know our javelin system that you know know our javelin system that you know know our javelin system that you know has a ballistic trajectory and goes has a ballistic trajectory and goes has a ballistic trajectory and goes straight down on the turret you know straight down on the turret you know straight down on the turret you know made that kind of protection obsolete. made that kind of protection obsolete. made that kind of protection obsolete. Uh but you know drones and the fact and Uh but you know drones and the fact and Uh but you know drones and the fact and and one of the things in in military and one of the things in in military and one of the things in in military jargon, you know, quantity has a quality jargon, you know, quantity has a quality jargon, you know, quantity has a quality all of its own, right? all of its own, right? all of its own, right? >> And and so if you're able to saturate uh >> And and so if you're able to saturate uh >> And and so if you're able to saturate uh you know, an enemy's air defenses, have you know, an enemy's air defenses, have you know, an enemy's air defenses, have too many targets for an air defense too many targets for an air defense too many targets for an air defense radar to track, and and this is what radar to track, and and this is what radar to track, and and this is what you're seeing on both sides now. and uh you're seeing on both sides now. and uh you're seeing on both sides now. and uh and it you know it's escalating. and it you know it's escalating. and it you know it's escalating. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And you know the counter system you know >> And you know the counter system you know >> And you know the counter system you know that are using you know electronic that are using you know electronic that are using you know electronic jamming and so you're seeing a lot of jamming and so you're seeing a lot of jamming and so you're seeing a lot of tethered drones now that that are immune tethered drones now that that are immune tethered drones now that that are immune to that jamming because the signal is is to that jamming because the signal is is to that jamming because the signal is is going through the tether and you know going through the tether and you know going through the tether and you know it's not uh you know going through you it's not uh you know going through you it's not uh you know going through you know the electromagnetic spectrum where know the electromagnetic spectrum where know the electromagnetic spectrum where it could be jammed. uh and and so like I it could be jammed. uh and and so like I it could be jammed. uh and and so like I said it's it's uh it's evolving and and said it's it's uh it's evolving and and said it's it's uh it's evolving and and the US has recognized that you know

the US has recognized that you know the US has recognized that you know we're we're behind but you know need to we're we're behind but you know need to we're we're behind but you know need to uh to catch up in in these tritable uh uh to catch up in in these tritable uh uh to catch up in in these tritable uh you know assets. you know assets. you know assets. >> Yeah. You know but commercial companies >> Yeah. You know but commercial companies >> Yeah. You know but commercial companies and certainly in the world of in the in and certainly in the world of in the in and certainly in the world of in the in the world of AI the time of AI are the world of AI the time of AI are the world of AI the time of AI are moving extremely quickly and it's very moving extremely quickly and it's very moving extremely quickly and it's very much a move fast and break things much a move fast and break things much a move fast and break things situation. Uh certainly offense gets to situation. Uh certainly offense gets to situation. Uh certainly offense gets to move fast and break things, but is it move fast and break things, but is it move fast and break things, but is it fair to say that defense systems demand fair to say that defense systems demand fair to say that defense systems demand assurance and there's a certain amount assurance and there's a certain amount assurance and there's a certain amount of caution that needs to be, you know, of caution that needs to be, you know, of caution that needs to be, you know, put together before something is put together before something is put together before something is deployed? How do you how do we balance deployed? How do you how do we balance deployed? How do you how do we balance that? Like things are moving so fast, that? Like things are moving so fast, that? Like things are moving so fast, but we really need them to not move but we really need them to not move but we really need them to not move fast. fast. fast. >> Well, we have to be comfortable with >> Well, we have to be comfortable with >> Well, we have to be comfortable with iterating. And so you know in Silicon iterating. And so you know in Silicon iterating. And so you know in Silicon Valley you know they they iterate you Valley you know they they iterate you Valley you know they they iterate you know on the software side and and what know on the software side and and what know on the software side and and what you know SpaceX has been able to pioneer you know SpaceX has been able to pioneer you know SpaceX has been able to pioneer is you know that fail fast and then is you know that fail fast and then is you know that fail fast and then iterate. And you know you can look at iterate. And you know you can look at iterate. And you know you can look at the timeline of you know the evolution the timeline of you know the evolution the timeline of you know the evolution you know of their of their engines you you know of their of their engines you you know of their of their engines you know for the Falcon 9 you know from a know for the Falcon 9 you know from a know for the Falcon 9 you know from a part count to you know where they part count to you know where they part count to you know where they started and to you know where they are started and to you know where they are started and to you know where they are now. And you know it's it's remarkable now. And you know it's it's remarkable now. And you know it's it's remarkable and so we have to be comfortable with and so we have to be comfortable with and so we have to be comfortable with iterating you know at speed and you know iterating you know at speed and you know iterating you know at speed and you know not having you know waiting for the 100% not having you know waiting for the 100% not having you know waiting for the 100% solution but being satisfied with the solution but being satisfied with the solution but being satisfied with the 80% 80% 80% solution.

solution. solution. >> Yeah. But then of course you get back >> Yeah. But then of course you get back >> Yeah. But then of course you get back into the valley of death in the sense of into the valley of death in the sense of into the valley of death in the sense of the 80% solution may be very uh the 80% solution may be very uh the 80% solution may be very uh inappropriate 20% of the time. inappropriate 20% of the time. inappropriate 20% of the time. >> Right. Right. Yeah. >> Right. Right. Yeah. >> Right. Right. Yeah. >> So, I'm I'm curious. I am I'm I'm 53 >> So, I'm I'm curious. I am I'm I'm 53 >> So, I'm I'm curious. I am I'm I'm 53 and I am overwhelmed with and I am overwhelmed with and I am overwhelmed with existing this long and looking back at existing this long and looking back at existing this long and looking back at when I started on a Commodore 64 in 1984 when I started on a Commodore 64 in 1984 when I started on a Commodore 64 in 1984 and now we have pocket supercomputers and now we have pocket supercomputers and now we have pocket supercomputers that talk to the world's AI and you know that talk to the world's AI and you know that talk to the world's AI and you know like I'm curious with even more like I'm curious with even more like I'm curious with even more historical context that you have often historical context that you have often historical context that you have often on a random Tuesday afternoon do you on a random Tuesday afternoon do you on a random Tuesday afternoon do you just kind of go holy crap Crap. I am just kind of go holy crap Crap. I am just kind of go holy crap Crap. I am living I'm living in the future. living I'm living in the future. living I'm living in the future. >> Yeah. I uh I you know I have to pinch >> Yeah. I uh I you know I have to pinch >> Yeah. I uh I you know I have to pinch myself sometime to to say you know you myself sometime to to say you know you myself sometime to to say you know you know you and I talked about this know you and I talked about this know you and I talked about this earlier. You know the the Star Trek earlier. You know the the Star Trek earlier. You know the the Star Trek technology that was supposed to be 23rd technology that was supposed to be 23rd technology that was supposed to be 23rd century you know we have you know century you know we have you know century you know we have you know realized now you know the communicator realized now you know the communicator realized now you know the communicator is the cell phone right? uh you know is the cell phone right? uh you know is the cell phone right? uh you know being able to talk to your computer you being able to talk to your computer you being able to talk to your computer you know like you know Spock and Scotty you know like you know Spock and Scotty you know like you know Spock and Scotty you know did in in the series know did in in the series know did in in the series >> I always use that the Star Trek 4 when >> I always use that the Star Trek 4 when >> I always use that the Star Trek 4 when they're going to save the whales and he they're going to save the whales and he they're going to save the whales and he sits down on the Macintosh and he's like sits down on the Macintosh and he's like sits down on the Macintosh and he's like computer computer computer >> right >> right >> right >> well just use the keyboard oh how quaint >> well just use the keyboard oh how quaint >> well just use the keyboard oh how quaint >> right but now we can do that >> right but now we can do that >> right but now we can do that >> you know uh you know we can voice prompt >> you know uh you know we can voice prompt >> you know uh you know we can voice prompt uh you know claude and and chat GPT and

uh you know claude and and chat GPT and uh you know claude and and chat GPT and and so Yeah. So, I'm excited uh you know and so Yeah. So, I'm excited uh you know and so Yeah. So, I'm excited uh you know that these technologies are uh you know that these technologies are uh you know that these technologies are uh you know being realized and and then you know being realized and and then you know being realized and and then you know science fiction serves to you know kind science fiction serves to you know kind science fiction serves to you know kind of you know be that engine of innovation of you know be that engine of innovation of you know be that engine of innovation and and I remember you know this is a and and I remember you know this is a and and I remember you know this is a and I don't remember what DARPA program and I don't remember what DARPA program and I don't remember what DARPA program so for you know the uninitiated DARPA is so for you know the uninitiated DARPA is so for you know the uninitiated DARPA is the defense advanced research projects the defense advanced research projects the defense advanced research projects agency which gave us uh you know the agency which gave us uh you know the agency which gave us uh you know the internet which gave us you know the GPS internet which gave us you know the GPS internet which gave us you know the GPS constellation that we depend on for constellation that we depend on for constellation that we depend on for navigation and and um uh and other navigation and and um uh and other navigation and and um uh and other things and you know the things and you know the things and you know the miniaturaturization of you know miniaturaturization of you know miniaturaturization of you know accelerometers that you know tell you accelerometers that you know tell you accelerometers that you know tell you which way the gravity vector is pointing which way the gravity vector is pointing which way the gravity vector is pointing you know these small cameras but I you know these small cameras but I you know these small cameras but I remember a DARPER program manager remember a DARPER program manager remember a DARPER program manager showing uh a clip from Minority Report showing uh a clip from Minority Report showing uh a clip from Minority Report it If if you if you remember when Tom it If if you if you remember when Tom it If if you if you remember when Tom Cruz is trying to hide from, you know, Cruz is trying to hide from, you know, Cruz is trying to hide from, you know, the pre-rime team and they put the the pre-rime team and they put the the pre-rime team and they put the spiders, you know, under the doors, spiders, you know, under the doors, spiders, you know, under the doors, >> you know, and a program manager said, "I >> you know, and a program manager said, "I >> you know, and a program manager said, "I I want that." And so, you know, so you I want that." And so, you know, so you I want that." And so, you know, so you think about it, think about it, think about it, you know, these science fiction um, you know, these science fiction um, you know, these science fiction um, you know, kind of concepts, you know, you know, kind of concepts, you know, you know, kind of concepts, you know, help motivate the imaginations help motivate the imaginations help motivate the imaginations of, uh, you know, engineers and

of, uh, you know, engineers and of, uh, you know, engineers and scientists and, you know, obviously of scientists and, you know, obviously of scientists and, you know, obviously of the of of the military to look for, you the of of the military to look for, you the of of the military to look for, you know, things that would, you know, help know, things that would, you know, help know, things that would, you know, help our uh, you know, our our war fighters. our uh, you know, our our war fighters. our uh, you know, our our war fighters. And uh and so what you know DARPA does And uh and so what you know DARPA does And uh and so what you know DARPA does is buy buys down technical risk you know is buy buys down technical risk you know is buy buys down technical risk you know and you know invests in things that are and you know invests in things that are and you know invests in things that are not yet commercially viable but you know not yet commercially viable but you know not yet commercially viable but you know have a military utility have a military utility have a military utility >> from from a less military utility >> from from a less military utility >> from from a less military utility perspective and a human perspective. I perspective and a human perspective. I perspective and a human perspective. I could say that I am thrilled with my could say that I am thrilled with my could say that I am thrilled with my robot vacuum. robot vacuum. robot vacuum. >> I'm curious if you have robots in your >> I'm curious if you have robots in your >> I'm curious if you have robots in your house and what robots do you want in house and what robots do you want in house and what robots do you want in your house that you don't have yet? I your house that you don't have yet? I your house that you don't have yet? I feel like the clothes folding robot is feel like the clothes folding robot is feel like the clothes folding robot is the that's the next one. the that's the next one. the that's the next one. >> Yeah. But, you know, so I'm going to be >> Yeah. But, you know, so I'm going to be >> Yeah. But, you know, so I'm going to be a little contrarian here. You know, a little contrarian here. You know, a little contrarian here. You know, there are other people who, you know, in there are other people who, you know, in there are other people who, you know, in the robotics community, you know, may the robotics community, you know, may the robotics community, you know, may disagree and some may agree, but I think disagree and some may agree, but I think disagree and some may agree, but I think human humanoids are the wrong form human humanoids are the wrong form human humanoids are the wrong form factor factor factor >> for for home. So I I I would qualify >> for for home. So I I I would qualify >> for for home. So I I I would qualify that to say you know the upper torso is that to say you know the upper torso is that to say you know the upper torso is you know so a torso with you know a six you know so a torso with you know a six you know so a torso with you know a six degree of freedom arm with you know at degree of freedom arm with you know at degree of freedom arm with you know at least three finger endector least three finger endector least three finger endector but bipedal locomotion is really hard but bipedal locomotion is really hard but bipedal locomotion is really hard and I excuse me I would point back to and I excuse me I would point back to and I excuse me I would point back to the DARPA grand challenge where it was the DARPA grand challenge where it was the DARPA grand challenge where it was used to replicate the actions needed to used to replicate the actions needed to used to replicate the actions needed to mitigate what happened at Fukushima. So mitigate what happened at Fukushima. So mitigate what happened at Fukushima. So the the bipeedal robot had to drive an

the the bipeedal robot had to drive an the the bipeedal robot had to drive an ATV and get out, open a door, use a ATV and get out, open a door, use a ATV and get out, open a door, use a tool, open a valve, which was key in the tool, open a valve, which was key in the tool, open a valve, which was key in the Fukushima uh scenario because they Fukushima uh scenario because they Fukushima uh scenario because they couldn't, you know, get the cooling couldn't, you know, get the cooling couldn't, you know, get the cooling water, you know, to, you know, the water, you know, to, you know, the water, you know, to, you know, the reactor cores. And so they had the reactor cores. And so they had the reactor cores. And so they had the explosions. And so the the robot that explosions. And so the the robot that explosions. And so the the robot that won it had a um, you know, was hybrid. won it had a um, you know, was hybrid. won it had a um, you know, was hybrid. it could walk, but it also had a wheeled it could walk, but it also had a wheeled it could walk, but it also had a wheeled base to allow it to go over, you know, base to allow it to go over, you know, base to allow it to go over, you know, kind of an an unstructured, you know, kind of an an unstructured, you know, kind of an an unstructured, you know, uneven terrain. And and so in people's uneven terrain. And and so in people's uneven terrain. And and so in people's homes, you know, there are stairs and homes, you know, there are stairs and homes, you know, there are stairs and and things like that. And, you know, and things like that. And, you know, and things like that. And, you know, there's a robot that I um worked with there's a robot that I um worked with there's a robot that I um worked with again in my Lawrence Livermore days, you again in my Lawrence Livermore days, you again in my Lawrence Livermore days, you know, called the Packbot. and its know, called the Packbot. and its know, called the Packbot. and its architecture, architecture, architecture, you know, the the remitt from DARPER you know, the the remitt from DARPER you know, the the remitt from DARPER was, was, was, >> hey, we want to replace the point person >> hey, we want to replace the point person >> hey, we want to replace the point person in a platoon in a platoon in a platoon >> because, you know, that person, you >> because, you know, that person, you >> because, you know, that person, you know, draws the fire and is, you know, know, draws the fire and is, you know, know, draws the fire and is, you know, the one that gets taken out at the base the one that gets taken out at the base the one that gets taken out at the base of a staircase. And so, the robot had to of a staircase. And so, the robot had to of a staircase. And so, the robot had to be able to climb stairs. And so, you be able to climb stairs. And so, you be able to climb stairs. And so, you know, the company that unfortunately uh, know, the company that unfortunately uh, know, the company that unfortunately uh, you know, went bankrupt recently, iRoot, you know, went bankrupt recently, iRoot, you know, went bankrupt recently, iRoot, um, developed the Packbot that had these um, developed the Packbot that had these um, developed the Packbot that had these folding kind of treads that allowed the folding kind of treads that allowed the folding kind of treads that allowed the the robot to to climb stairs. And so I the robot to to climb stairs. And so I the robot to to climb stairs. And so I think, you know, the the form factor think, you know, the the form factor think, you know, the the form factor that will be successful in a home is

that will be successful in a home is that will be successful in a home is going to be, you know, a torso um with going to be, you know, a torso um with going to be, you know, a torso um with the, you know, like I said, the the same the, you know, like I said, the the same the, you know, like I said, the the same degrees of freedom as as a human or or degrees of freedom as as a human or or degrees of freedom as as a human or or maybe even more, but the base is going maybe even more, but the base is going maybe even more, but the base is going to have to be some hybrid of uh of to have to be some hybrid of uh of to have to be some hybrid of uh of tracks and and wheels to get over uneven tracks and and wheels to get over uneven tracks and and wheels to get over uneven surfaces. surfaces. surfaces. >> Yeah, I think you're right. I think >> Yeah, I think you're right. I think >> Yeah, I think you're right. I think roboticists and ones that are insistent roboticists and ones that are insistent roboticists and ones that are insistent on humanoid robots uh need to understand on humanoid robots uh need to understand on humanoid robots uh need to understand that humans are funny shaped things that humans are funny shaped things that humans are funny shaped things generated over billions of years of generated over billions of years of generated over billions of years of evolution and we may not be the optimal evolution and we may not be the optimal evolution and we may not be the optimal shape. shape. shape. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Yeah. Right. >> Yeah. Right. >> Yeah. Right. >> Absolutely. Well, I could talk to you >> Absolutely. Well, I could talk to you >> Absolutely. Well, I could talk to you for hours. You you are an absolute joy. for hours. You you are an absolute joy. for hours. You you are an absolute joy. I would encourage people to check out I would encourage people to check out I would encourage people to check out your website at maynardholiday.com. your website at maynardholiday.com. your website at maynardholiday.com. You're doing a lot of really great work You're doing a lot of really great work You're doing a lot of really great work in this space. You're national in this space. You're national in this space. You're national recognized leader in security strategy, recognized leader in security strategy, recognized leader in security strategy, defense innovation and you uh certainly defense innovation and you uh certainly defense innovation and you uh certainly help people bridge that space between help people bridge that space between help people bridge that space between commercial and defense and we appreciate commercial and defense and we appreciate commercial and defense and we appreciate the work that you've done over the last the work that you've done over the last the work that you've done over the last several decades. several decades. several decades. >> Yeah, it's honor and privilege you know >> Yeah, it's honor and privilege you know >> Yeah, it's honor and privilege you know to have served in two presidential to have served in two presidential to have served in two presidential administrations and you know I want to administrations and you know I want to administrations and you know I want to to make sure you know we maintain our to make sure you know we maintain our to make sure you know we maintain our technological edge. So, as my my old technological edge. So, as my my old technological edge. So, as my my old boss used to say, to make sure our boss used to say, to make sure our boss used to say, to make sure our soldiers, sailors, airmen, and guardians soldiers, sailors, airmen, and guardians soldiers, sailors, airmen, and guardians are never in a fair fight.

are never in a fair fight. are never in a fair fight. >> And we appreciate their service. Thank >> And we appreciate their service. Thank >> And we appreciate their service. Thank you so much, Mayor Holiday, for chatting you so much, Mayor Holiday, for chatting you so much, Mayor Holiday, for chatting with me today. with me today. with me today. >> Yeah, my pleasure. This has been another >> Yeah, my pleasure. This has been another >> Yeah, my pleasure. This has been another episode of Hansel Minutes and we'll see episode of Hansel Minutes and we'll see episode of Hansel Minutes and we'll see you again next