How is AlmaLinux OS is community-driven? with benny Vasquez

Hi, I'm Scott Hansselman and this is Hi, I'm Scott Hansselman and this is another episode of Hansel Minutes. Today another episode of Hansel Minutes. Today another episode of Hansel Minutes. Today I'm chatting with Benny Vasquez. She is I'm chatting with Benny Vasquez. She is I'm chatting with Benny Vasquez. She is the chair of the Alma Linux OS the chair of the Alma Linux OS the chair of the Alma Linux OS Foundation. How are you? Foundation. How are you? Foundation. How are you? >> I'm all right, thanks. Thanks for having >> I'm all right, thanks. Thanks for having >> I'm all right, thanks. Thanks for having me. me. me. >> Yeah, thanks for hanging out. So Linux, >> Yeah, thanks for hanging out. So Linux, >> Yeah, thanks for hanging out. So Linux, there's a lot of them. There's always a there's a lot of them. There's always a there's a lot of them. There's always a person that's like compiling their own person that's like compiling their own person that's like compiling their own dro from source, you know. Yep. dro from source, you know. Yep. dro from source, you know. Yep. >> And there's all the memes around like >> And there's all the memes around like >> And there's all the memes around like what your Linux distro says about you what your Linux distro says about you what your Linux distro says about you >> and uh there's like chaotic good and >> and uh there's like chaotic good and >> and uh there's like chaotic good and neutral evil and like you can figure out neutral evil and like you can figure out neutral evil and like you can figure out where you fit on the D&D grid based on where you fit on the D&D grid based on where you fit on the D&D grid based on uh the one that you you chose. uh the one that you you chose. uh the one that you you chose. >> Why did you choose Alma Linux? Oh, >> Why did you choose Alma Linux? Oh, >> Why did you choose Alma Linux? Oh, interestingly enough, so I got invested interestingly enough, so I got invested interestingly enough, so I got invested and involved in Omal Linux because I was and involved in Omal Linux because I was and involved in Omal Linux because I was a user of CentOS a user of CentOS a user of CentOS >> and when Red Hat announced that they >> and when Red Hat announced that they >> and when Red Hat announced that they weren't going to be producing the weren't going to be producing the weren't going to be producing the downstream version anymore, we as a downstream version anymore, we as a downstream version anymore, we as a community needed a new version to community needed a new version to community needed a new version to replace it. And when Amal Linux got spun replace it. And when Amal Linux got spun replace it. And when Amal Linux got spun up, the people that were involved were up, the people that were involved were up, the people that were involved were people that I already knew in the people that I already knew in the people that I already knew in the industry industry industry >> and they came to me and said, "Hey, we >> and they came to me and said, "Hey, we >> and they came to me and said, "Hey, we need somebody who's good at translating need somebody who's good at translating need somebody who's good at translating tech to non tech." and just generally tech to non tech." and just generally tech to non tech." and just generally good at community in general. So like do good at community in general. So like do good at community in general. So like do you want to come help? And I said yes you want to come help? And I said yes you want to come help? And I said yes absolutely.

absolutely. absolutely. >> So Alma kind of emerged to fill a void, >> So Alma kind of emerged to fill a void, >> So Alma kind of emerged to fill a void, right? Because there's this lin there's right? Because there's this lin there's right? Because there's this lin there's this landscape not just of Linux users this landscape not just of Linux users this landscape not just of Linux users but of enterprise Linux users. but of enterprise Linux users. but of enterprise Linux users. >> Yes, for sure. >> Yes, for sure. >> Yes, for sure. >> And then explain that what CentOS did >> And then explain that what CentOS did >> And then explain that what CentOS did when they changed their focus. when they changed their focus. when they changed their focus. >> Yeah. So, let's go back even a little >> Yeah. So, let's go back even a little >> Yeah. So, let's go back even a little bit further because for anybody that bit further because for anybody that bit further because for anybody that doesn't know, uh, CentOS used to be a doesn't know, uh, CentOS used to be a doesn't know, uh, CentOS used to be a version of Red Hat that was just built version of Red Hat that was just built version of Red Hat that was just built by the community for free because Red by the community for free because Red by the community for free because Red Hat is open source. So, anybody that Hat is open source. So, anybody that Hat is open source. So, anybody that wanted to use Red Hat but didn't want to wanted to use Red Hat but didn't want to wanted to use Red Hat but didn't want to pay for it, they could use this thing pay for it, they could use this thing pay for it, they could use this thing called CentOS, but they were using it called CentOS, but they were using it called CentOS, but they were using it with their own support. They were using with their own support. They were using with their own support. They were using it with uh like community support, I it with uh like community support, I it with uh like community support, I guess, is the way to to put it. It was guess, is the way to to put it. It was guess, is the way to to put it. It was people supporting each other. There were people supporting each other. There were people supporting each other. There were uh almost 20 years of this operating uh almost 20 years of this operating uh almost 20 years of this operating system that was enterprisegrade but free system that was enterprisegrade but free system that was enterprisegrade but free and didn't come with support. And if you and didn't come with support. And if you and didn't come with support. And if you understood Red Hat then you could use understood Red Hat then you could use understood Red Hat then you could use CentOS and it was fine. It was used CentOS and it was fine. It was used CentOS and it was fine. It was used everywhere from in every single industry everywhere from in every single industry everywhere from in every single industry that you could possibly consider. It has that you could possibly consider. It has that you could possibly consider. It has been used. I think when they announced been used. I think when they announced been used. I think when they announced the uh the end of the traditional the uh the end of the traditional the uh the end of the traditional downstream Santos port there were downstream Santos port there were downstream Santos port there were something like 40 million installs something like 40 million installs something like 40 million installs active getting updates that they knew active getting updates that they knew active getting updates that they knew about. So a lot and when that about. So a lot and when that about. So a lot and when that organization was set up there wasn't organization was set up there wasn't organization was set up there wasn't really a central ownership structure.

really a central ownership structure. really a central ownership structure. There wasn't really any kind of There wasn't really any kind of There wasn't really any kind of centralized governance of it at all. And centralized governance of it at all. And centralized governance of it at all. And over 20 years, you know, people get over 20 years, you know, people get over 20 years, you know, people get tired and it was kind of hard to bring tired and it was kind of hard to bring tired and it was kind of hard to bring people in and it was kind of hard to to people in and it was kind of hard to to people in and it was kind of hard to to really know how to hand off the project. really know how to hand off the project. really know how to hand off the project. And they ended up working on a deal with And they ended up working on a deal with And they ended up working on a deal with Red Hat where Red Hat hired all the Red Hat where Red Hat hired all the Red Hat where Red Hat hired all the engineers that worked on CentOS and uh engineers that worked on CentOS and uh engineers that worked on CentOS and uh took like ownership and responsibility took like ownership and responsibility took like ownership and responsibility for the project. That meant that, you for the project. That meant that, you for the project. That meant that, you know, now Red Hat kind of gets to drive know, now Red Hat kind of gets to drive know, now Red Hat kind of gets to drive the project. And a couple of years into the project. And a couple of years into the project. And a couple of years into them having brought everybody on, they them having brought everybody on, they them having brought everybody on, they introduced this new thing called CentOS introduced this new thing called CentOS introduced this new thing called CentOS Stream. CentOS Stream sits in the build Stream. CentOS Stream sits in the build Stream. CentOS Stream sits in the build tree upstream from Red Hat. So, it's tree upstream from Red Hat. So, it's tree upstream from Red Hat. So, it's just up uh ahead of Red Hat. It's just up uh ahead of Red Hat. It's just up uh ahead of Red Hat. It's slightly more updated, slightly more um slightly more updated, slightly more um slightly more updated, slightly more um definitely uh updated more frequently, definitely uh updated more frequently, definitely uh updated more frequently, that kind of stuff. And then about a that kind of stuff. And then about a that kind of stuff. And then about a year later, they announced that they year later, they announced that they year later, they announced that they would no longer be producing the would no longer be producing the would no longer be producing the downstream version, which is, like I downstream version, which is, like I downstream version, which is, like I said, the version that everybody had said, the version that everybody had said, the version that everybody had been using forever. and as users we we been using forever. and as users we we been using forever. and as users we we needed it so we started building it.

needed it so we started building it. needed it so we started building it. >> Did people freak out and what was the >> Did people freak out and what was the >> Did people freak out and what was the reasoning behind that decision? Was this reasoning behind that decision? Was this reasoning behind that decision? Was this a capitalism thing? Like they just like a capitalism thing? Like they just like a capitalism thing? Like they just like we don't want to pay for this thing we don't want to pay for this thing we don't want to pay for this thing that's nope, we're not getting any money that's nope, we're not getting any money that's nope, we're not getting any money for for for >> Well, I don't I don't think they ever >> Well, I don't I don't think they ever >> Well, I don't I don't think they ever actually like provided a reason that actually like provided a reason that actually like provided a reason that wasn't, you know, this is better for our wasn't, you know, this is better for our wasn't, you know, this is better for our our business or whatever. But if you our business or whatever. But if you our business or whatever. But if you look at it from their perspective, the look at it from their perspective, the look at it from their perspective, the goal with CentOS was to get uh for for goal with CentOS was to get uh for for goal with CentOS was to get uh for for them from a business perspective is to them from a business perspective is to them from a business perspective is to get their users invested in testing and get their users invested in testing and get their users invested in testing and in providing feedback. But if CentOS is in providing feedback. But if CentOS is in providing feedback. But if CentOS is downstream from Red Hat, they're getting downstream from Red Hat, they're getting downstream from Red Hat, they're getting feedback too late. That's why they feedback too late. That's why they feedback too late. That's why they created the thing called sent to a created the thing called sent to a created the thing called sent to a stream. So they get uh feedback just stream. So they get uh feedback just stream. So they get uh feedback just before Red Hat. They get it just before before Red Hat. They get it just before before Red Hat. They get it just before they're building the the actual they're building the the actual they're building the the actual enterprise version, right? And that enterprise version, right? And that enterprise version, right? And that means that it was a lot easier for them means that it was a lot easier for them means that it was a lot easier for them to get their customers invested and a to get their customers invested and a to get their customers invested and a lot easier to get good quality feedback. lot easier to get good quality feedback. lot easier to get good quality feedback. And from that perspective, And from that perspective, And from that perspective, all they saw was that they were building all they saw was that they were building all they saw was that they were building a competitor to their product, right? a competitor to their product, right? a competitor to their product, right? Like, yeah, you can pay us for this Like, yeah, you can pay us for this Like, yeah, you can pay us for this version or you can get this other version or you can get this other version or you can get this other version that's exactly the same for version that's exactly the same for version that's exactly the same for free. And it doesn't from a business free. And it doesn't from a business free. And it doesn't from a business perspective, it makes no sense for them perspective, it makes no sense for them perspective, it makes no sense for them to build it, right? None at all. But to build it, right? None at all. But to build it, right? None at all. But there was definitely a lot of people there was definitely a lot of people there was definitely a lot of people that freaked out.

that freaked out. that freaked out. >> Okay. Okay, >> Okay. Okay, >> Okay. Okay, >> for a couple of reasons. >> for a couple of reasons. >> for a couple of reasons. >> So if CentOS was a stable downstream >> So if CentOS was a stable downstream >> So if CentOS was a stable downstream rebuild of Red Hat, which we would call rebuild of Red Hat, which we would call rebuild of Red Hat, which we would call re and then CentOS stream is really re and then CentOS stream is really re and then CentOS stream is really CentOS upstream. CentOS upstream. CentOS upstream. Then where which where does Alma Linux Then where which where does Alma Linux Then where which where does Alma Linux fit? Is it downstream? fit? Is it downstream? fit? Is it downstream? >> Downstream. Yep. Yeah. We we take Red >> Downstream. Yep. Yeah. We we take Red >> Downstream. Yep. Yeah. We we take Red Hats well not anymore. We kind of take Hats well not anymore. We kind of take Hats well not anymore. We kind of take Red Hat sources. We match Red Hat for Red Hat sources. We match Red Hat for Red Hat sources. We match Red Hat for what they are building and releasing and what they are building and releasing and what they are building and releasing and are Red Hat compatible. are Red Hat compatible. are Red Hat compatible. >> Okay. And that compatibility is the most >> Okay. And that compatibility is the most >> Okay. And that compatibility is the most important thing, right? Like that's the important thing, right? Like that's the important thing, right? Like that's the thing because thing because thing because >> it's all about a promise of onetoone >> it's all about a promise of onetoone >> it's all about a promise of onetoone binary compatibility with Red Hat. binary compatibility with Red Hat. binary compatibility with Red Hat. >> Well, yeah. So, we're not we we would >> Well, yeah. So, we're not we we would >> Well, yeah. So, we're not we we would not call ourselves one to one. not call ourselves one to one. not call ourselves one to one. >> Oh, really? >> Oh, really? >> Oh, really? >> Because Yeah. Because in 2023, Red Hat >> Because Yeah. Because in 2023, Red Hat >> Because Yeah. Because in 2023, Red Hat uh announced that they would no longer uh announced that they would no longer uh announced that they would no longer be shipping the source code to sent or be shipping the source code to sent or be shipping the source code to sent or get.org to us.org like they always had get.org to us.org like they always had get.org to us.org like they always had they'd always published the source code they'd always published the source code they'd always published the source code for Red Hat there. They changed where it for Red Hat there. They changed where it for Red Hat there. They changed where it was to a place behind a user login. And was to a place behind a user login. And was to a place behind a user login. And that user login when you create an that user login when you create an that user login when you create an account there, you agree that any code account there, you agree that any code account there, you agree that any code that you access there you will not use that you access there you will not use that you access there you will not use to build an operating system. And that to build an operating system. And that to build an operating system. And that meant that uh you know that it meant that uh you know that it meant that uh you know that it effectively completely broke our effectively completely broke our effectively completely broke our pipeline. And in order to fix that, we pipeline. And in order to fix that, we pipeline. And in order to fix that, we started building uh from the same started building uh from the same started building uh from the same sources they do from Sunwest Stream. But sources they do from Sunwest Stream. But sources they do from Sunwest Stream. But we still are matching them for releases, we still are matching them for releases, we still are matching them for releases, release numbers, release versions, all release numbers, release versions, all release numbers, release versions, all of that kind of stuff. We're not of that kind of stuff. We're not of that kind of stuff. We're not building rebuildings onto a stream building rebuildings onto a stream building rebuildings onto a stream because that wouldn't make any sense.

because that wouldn't make any sense. because that wouldn't make any sense. We're still building Red Hat just from We're still building Red Hat just from We're still building Red Hat just from the same place that they do. the same place that they do. the same place that they do. >> Wow. This is it's it's it's so weird cuz >> Wow. This is it's it's it's so weird cuz >> Wow. This is it's it's it's so weird cuz it's like I'm trying to imagine the it's like I'm trying to imagine the it's like I'm trying to imagine the family tree of this except the family family tree of this except the family family tree of this except the family tree is shifting and now you've become a tree is shifting and now you've become a tree is shifting and now you've become a sibling. sibling. sibling. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Rather than a down like rather than a >> Rather than a down like rather than a >> Rather than a down like rather than a downstream uh dependent. downstream uh dependent. downstream uh dependent. >> Yeah. We we literally had to make a >> Yeah. We we literally had to make a >> Yeah. We we literally had to make a diagram. to make it kind of clear for diagram. to make it kind of clear for diagram. to make it kind of clear for everybody. It's kind of like before sent everybody. It's kind of like before sent everybody. It's kind of like before sent to us stream and after 2023 like this is to us stream and after 2023 like this is to us stream and after 2023 like this is where we are now, where we are now, where we are now, >> right? So you've got enterprises, you've >> right? So you've got enterprises, you've >> right? So you've got enterprises, you've got hosting providers, you've got got hosting providers, you've got got hosting providers, you've got enthusiasts, you've got regular Joe's enthusiasts, you've got regular Joe's enthusiasts, you've got regular Joe's and Janes, and then you've got companies and Janes, and then you've got companies and Janes, and then you've got companies that depend on stability. that depend on stability. that depend on stability. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Who's out there listening to this show >> Who's out there listening to this show >> Who's out there listening to this show who may or may not be familiar with some who may or may not be familiar with some who may or may not be familiar with some of this drama and they might say, "Oh, of this drama and they might say, "Oh, of this drama and they might say, "Oh, wow. Alma Linux is exactly what I need wow. Alma Linux is exactly what I need wow. Alma Linux is exactly what I need because I'm in this situation and I can because I'm in this situation and I can because I'm in this situation and I can get out of that situation with Alma. get out of that situation with Alma. get out of that situation with Alma. >> Yeah. So, typically the people that end >> Yeah. So, typically the people that end >> Yeah. So, typically the people that end up choosing Alma are the ones that have up choosing Alma are the ones that have up choosing Alma are the ones that have a desire for, you know, an RPM based DRO a desire for, you know, an RPM based DRO a desire for, you know, an RPM based DRO that is enterprise ready and has uh all that is enterprise ready and has uh all that is enterprise ready and has uh all of the features that they need. If they of the features that they need. If they of the features that they need. If they were ever going to use CentOS before, were ever going to use CentOS before, were ever going to use CentOS before, they're coming to us. they're coming to they're coming to us. they're coming to they're coming to us. they're coming to uh the you know they're choosing based uh the you know they're choosing based uh the you know they're choosing based on at this point they're choosing based on at this point they're choosing based on at this point they're choosing based if if they're already sold on the Red if if they're already sold on the Red if if they're already sold on the Red Hat universe they're choosing based on Hat universe they're choosing based on Hat universe they're choosing based on our governance they're p choosing based our governance they're p choosing based our governance they're p choosing based on like the the flexibility that we have on like the the flexibility that we have on like the the flexibility that we have because one of the things that we can do because one of the things that we can do because one of the things that we can do now that we're really excited about

now that we're really excited about now that we're really excited about since the the Red Hat source code shift since the the Red Hat source code shift since the the Red Hat source code shift we actually get to build and ship things we actually get to build and ship things we actually get to build and ship things that are outside of what Red Hat does. that are outside of what Red Hat does. that are outside of what Red Hat does. So, we've been able to add on top of it, So, we've been able to add on top of it, So, we've been able to add on top of it, add features or add back in uh hardware add features or add back in uh hardware add features or add back in uh hardware support, which is one of the big things support, which is one of the big things support, which is one of the big things that shifted. For example, uh in 9 there that shifted. For example, uh in 9 there that shifted. For example, uh in 9 there were a bunch of like RAID driver or RAID were a bunch of like RAID driver or RAID were a bunch of like RAID driver or RAID controllers and that kind of stuff that controllers and that kind of stuff that controllers and that kind of stuff that got dropped in support from Red Hat for got dropped in support from Red Hat for got dropped in support from Red Hat for reasons that we couldn't really find. reasons that we couldn't really find. reasons that we couldn't really find. So, we added them back in because we So, we added them back in because we So, we added them back in because we could because it's easy and it doesn't could because it's easy and it doesn't could because it's easy and it doesn't since we don't have to match Red Hat since we don't have to match Red Hat since we don't have to match Red Hat exactly anymore. We have that kind of exactly anymore. We have that kind of exactly anymore. We have that kind of freedom. everything that still works on freedom. everything that still works on freedom. everything that still works on Red Hat or everything that works on Red Red Hat or everything that works on Red Red Hat or everything that works on Red Hat will still work on Amma, but it's Hat will still work on Amma, but it's Hat will still work on Amma, but it's that kind of stuff. So, people that need that kind of stuff. So, people that need that kind of stuff. So, people that need additional hardware support, people that additional hardware support, people that additional hardware support, people that need, one of the other big benefits we need, one of the other big benefits we need, one of the other big benefits we get is we can ship bug fixes for uh get is we can ship bug fixes for uh get is we can ship bug fixes for uh faster. So, if there's a bug that's been faster. So, if there's a bug that's been faster. So, if there's a bug that's been fixed upstream but hasn't been that fix fixed upstream but hasn't been that fix fixed upstream but hasn't been that fix hasn't been pulled into Red Hat for some hasn't been pulled into Red Hat for some hasn't been pulled into Red Hat for some reason, we can pull it in. And it's it's reason, we can pull it in. And it's it's reason, we can pull it in. And it's it's that kind of stuff that really starts to that kind of stuff that really starts to that kind of stuff that really starts to differentiate us.

differentiate us. differentiate us. >> So, how does Red Hat like feel about >> So, how does Red Hat like feel about >> So, how does Red Hat like feel about this? Like do you bump into redhead this? Like do you bump into redhead this? Like do you bump into redhead people like you know at at the grocery people like you know at at the grocery people like you know at at the grocery store and they're like cool with it and store and they're like cool with it and store and they're like cool with it and everyone's cool. everyone's cool. everyone's cool. >> Yeah. Like one of the biggest things was >> Yeah. Like one of the biggest things was >> Yeah. Like one of the biggest things was what they said was you can't just what they said was you can't just what they said was you can't just rebuild Red Hat and not improve it. Like rebuild Red Hat and not improve it. Like rebuild Red Hat and not improve it. Like you can if you want to do stuff make it you can if you want to do stuff make it you can if you want to do stuff make it something different. And that was something different. And that was something different. And that was obviously something that sent to us obviously something that sent to us obviously something that sent to us never did, right? They it was just Red never did, right? They it was just Red never did, right? They it was just Red Hat. And because it was, you know, a Hat. And because it was, you know, a Hat. And because it was, you know, a collection of people, a handful of collection of people, a handful of collection of people, a handful of people, there was no motivation to add people, there was no motivation to add people, there was no motivation to add features or add anything else. But one features or add anything else. But one features or add anything else. But one of the things that we've been able to do of the things that we've been able to do of the things that we've been able to do is kind of improve on it. And so they is kind of improve on it. And so they is kind of improve on it. And so they say, "Yeah, no, that's fine. Do that. say, "Yeah, no, that's fine. Do that. say, "Yeah, no, that's fine. Do that. Serve the community that you need to Serve the community that you need to Serve the community that you need to serve that we're not serving. We're okay serve that we're not serving. We're okay serve that we're not serving. We're okay with that. We're actually we're buddies with that. We're actually we're buddies with that. We're actually we're buddies with all the people at Red Hat." like it with all the people at Red Hat." like it with all the people at Red Hat." like it would be silly to not be because if they would be silly to not be because if they would be silly to not be because if they don't exist or they don't exist, we don't exist or they don't exist, we don't exist or they don't exist, we don't exist. don't exist. don't exist. >> So, how do again I might be asking dumb >> So, how do again I might be asking dumb >> So, how do again I might be asking dumb questions but you know not I'm not in questions but you know not I'm not in questions but you know not I'm not in this particular subculture. I think I'm this particular subculture. I think I'm this particular subculture. I think I'm just kind of like a poser when it comes just kind of like a poser when it comes just kind of like a poser when it comes to Linux because mostly I'm on Ubuntu to Linux because mostly I'm on Ubuntu to Linux because mostly I'm on Ubuntu um you know which is you know it's kind um you know which is you know it's kind um you know which is you know it's kind of the the the default that one falls of the the the default that one falls of the the the default that one falls into. I'm trying to think about into. I'm trying to think about into. I'm trying to think about why why why one would pick Red Hat then.

one would pick Red Hat then. one would pick Red Hat then. >> Oh, there's lots of reasons like >> Oh, there's lots of reasons like >> Oh, there's lots of reasons like >> Okay, that's good to understand. >> Okay, that's good to understand. >> Okay, that's good to understand. >> Yeah, the the biggest reason is that you >> Yeah, the the biggest reason is that you >> Yeah, the the biggest reason is that you want to have Red Hat support. want to have Red Hat support. want to have Red Hat support. >> So, yeah, that's that's the thing that >> So, yeah, that's that's the thing that >> So, yeah, that's that's the thing that ends up happening. There are definitely ends up happening. There are definitely ends up happening. There are definitely commercial support providers that you commercial support providers that you commercial support providers that you can sign up with that will give you can sign up with that will give you can sign up with that will give you support for Alma Linux, but support for Alma Linux, but support for Alma Linux, but >> Right. But like Alma Linux has cloud >> Right. But like Alma Linux has cloud >> Right. But like Alma Linux has cloud Linux and certified partners and like Linux and certified partners and like Linux and certified partners and like there's folks that you could buy support there's folks that you could buy support there's folks that you could buy support for. Why would I want to get Red Hat for. Why would I want to get Red Hat for. Why would I want to get Red Hat when I could get Alma and then buy when I could get Alma and then buy when I could get Alma and then buy support from an Alma Linux uh managed support from an Alma Linux uh managed support from an Alma Linux uh managed service? service? service? >> I I don't know. I think it's like I >> I I don't know. I think it's like I >> I I don't know. I think it's like I said, I think it boils down to if you said, I think it boils down to if you said, I think it boils down to if you want to to have the commercial want to to have the commercial want to to have the commercial relationship with Red Hat because then relationship with Red Hat because then relationship with Red Hat because then you have somebody to call. There's a lot you have somebody to call. There's a lot you have somebody to call. There's a lot of people that are, you know, also have of people that are, you know, also have of people that are, you know, also have like negative opinions about what they like negative opinions about what they like negative opinions about what they call the rebuilds or uh something like call the rebuilds or uh something like call the rebuilds or uh something like that because they think, you know, we're that because they think, you know, we're that because they think, you know, we're just taking Red Hat's work and and just taking Red Hat's work and and just taking Red Hat's work and and benefiting from it. But I would argue benefiting from it. But I would argue benefiting from it. But I would argue that there's there's no real benefit in that there's there's no real benefit in that there's there's no real benefit in a nonprofit.

a nonprofit. a nonprofit. >> Well, which is great because that brings >> Well, which is great because that brings >> Well, which is great because that brings me to the to the larger question, which me to the to the larger question, which me to the to the larger question, which is this is a truly communitydriven is this is a truly communitydriven is this is a truly communitydriven distribution, right? contributions from distribution, right? contributions from distribution, right? contributions from anyone. You have a a goal of a a anyone. You have a a goal of a a anyone. You have a a goal of a a meritocracy when it comes to decision meritocracy when it comes to decision meritocracy when it comes to decision making. Like it sounds it sounds weird making. Like it sounds it sounds weird making. Like it sounds it sounds weird because it is the ideal, because it is the ideal, because it is the ideal, >> but it's also feels like a throwback to >> but it's also feels like a throwback to >> but it's also feels like a throwback to like the way that it used to be in the like the way that it used to be in the like the way that it used to be in the '9s. Like has it been challenging in the '9s. Like has it been challenging in the '9s. Like has it been challenging in the 2020s to be running a project as if it 2020s to be running a project as if it 2020s to be running a project as if it was the benevolent open source of the was the benevolent open source of the was the benevolent open source of the late '9s? late '9s? late '9s? >> Oh, of course. like especially with the >> Oh, of course. like especially with the >> Oh, of course. like especially with the the way that the shifting of both the way that the shifting of both the way that the shifting of both business feelings around open source and business feelings around open source and business feelings around open source and like public perception of open source like public perception of open source like public perception of open source has shifted like there's two things has shifted like there's two things has shifted like there's two things right there's especially the business right there's especially the business right there's especially the business side you've got people who say well you side you've got people who say well you side you've got people who say well you know if you say you're open source and know if you say you're open source and know if you say you're open source and you the only familiarity that you have you the only familiarity that you have you the only familiarity that you have with open source is like single with open source is like single with open source is like single contributor open source projects like I contributor open source projects like I contributor open source projects like I can't think of any of the big ones right can't think of any of the big ones right can't think of any of the big ones right now but like companies that own an open now but like companies that own an open now but like companies that own an open source project and they control it and source project and they control it and source project and they control it and they decide what actually goes into it they decide what actually goes into it they decide what actually goes into it >> without accepting any external work or >> without accepting any external work or >> without accepting any external work or very little external work, very little external work, very little external work, >> then you're not going to really >> then you're not going to really >> then you're not going to really understand what an open source operating understand what an open source operating understand what an open source operating system would look like. And so like that system would look like. And so like that system would look like. And so like that that is definitely a challenge in and of that is definitely a challenge in and of that is definitely a challenge in and of itself is just proving and and pointing itself is just proving and and pointing itself is just proving and and pointing out to people how it works. And the out to people how it works. And the out to people how it works. And the other side is the uh what was the other other side is the uh what was the other other side is the uh what was the other part of the question you asked me?

part of the question you asked me? part of the question you asked me? >> No worries. It's trying to understand >> No worries. It's trying to understand >> No worries. It's trying to understand the how a found you've created a the how a found you've created a the how a found you've created a foundation and you're running it in an foundation and you're running it in an foundation and you're running it in an idealized way like it's 2025. Social idealized way like it's 2025. Social idealized way like it's 2025. Social media exists, politics exists, media exists, politics exists, media exists, politics exists, technology is political. technology is political. technology is political. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> But you're running it in a very chill >> But you're running it in a very chill >> But you're running it in a very chill way and I think that's kind of cool. The way and I think that's kind of cool. The way and I think that's kind of cool. The other the other thing that we have to other the other thing that we have to other the other thing that we have to pull into or the other thing we have to pull into or the other thing we have to pull into or the other thing we have to fight with is because people understand fight with is because people understand fight with is because people understand the value of open source now it is the value of open source now it is the value of open source now it is absolutely critical to maintain that absolutely critical to maintain that absolutely critical to maintain that neutrality in our governance neutrality in our governance neutrality in our governance >> because if you as a business understand >> because if you as a business understand >> because if you as a business understand the benefit of open source and try to the benefit of open source and try to the benefit of open source and try to come into an a project that you have you come into an a project that you have you come into an a project that you have you know a vested interest in its know a vested interest in its know a vested interest in its continuation and really want to have the continuation and really want to have the continuation and really want to have the ability to push the project in the way ability to push the project in the way ability to push the project in the way that benefits you the most. That's not that benefits you the most. That's not that benefits you the most. That's not going to serve the community for Alma going to serve the community for Alma going to serve the community for Alma Linux very well, right? So, we have to Linux very well, right? So, we have to Linux very well, right? So, we have to make sure that whatever governance we make sure that whatever governance we make sure that whatever governance we set up is neutral and has the ability set up is neutral and has the ability set up is neutral and has the ability and the the requirement to consider more and the the requirement to consider more and the the requirement to consider more than just a few opinions.

than just a few opinions. than just a few opinions. >> To consider more than just a few >> To consider more than just a few >> To consider more than just a few opinions. So, as a nonprofit, you know, opinions. So, as a nonprofit, you know, opinions. So, as a nonprofit, you know, you you have to like file with the IRS you you have to like file with the IRS you you have to like file with the IRS and you take income and you pay, you and you take income and you pay, you and you take income and you pay, you know, people to the best of your know, people to the best of your know, people to the best of your ability. But what if some company comes ability. But what if some company comes ability. But what if some company comes along and says, "Hey, I'll give you a along and says, "Hey, I'll give you a along and says, "Hey, I'll give you a million bucks if you put this thing or million bucks if you put this thing or million bucks if you put this thing or that driver if you do that work for us." that driver if you do that work for us." that driver if you do that work for us." Would that be a nonprofit foundation Would that be a nonprofit foundation Would that be a nonprofit foundation thing or would that be a thing that thing or would that be a thing that thing or would that be a thing that they'd pay a company, a commercial they'd pay a company, a commercial they'd pay a company, a commercial company for to like lobby or push into? company for to like lobby or push into? company for to like lobby or push into? >> It's funny because that exact thing has >> It's funny because that exact thing has >> It's funny because that exact thing has been coming up for us recently. Okay, been coming up for us recently. Okay, been coming up for us recently. Okay, cool. cool. cool. >> So, it's been it's been a discussion >> So, it's been it's been a discussion >> So, it's been it's been a discussion because we have to decide where we want because we have to decide where we want because we have to decide where we want to land. Like the foundation right now, to land. Like the foundation right now, to land. Like the foundation right now, our annual budget is $250,000. We don't our annual budget is $250,000. We don't our annual budget is $250,000. We don't have have have >> Yeah, this is not millions. >> Yeah, this is not millions. >> Yeah, this is not millions. >> No, it's it's not >> No, it's it's not >> No, it's it's not >> I've looked up the filings. >> I've looked up the filings. >> I've looked up the filings. >> Yeah, we we do not have much money, >> Yeah, we we do not have much money, >> Yeah, we we do not have much money, right? And the benefit that we get right right? And the benefit that we get right right? And the benefit that we get right now from our sponsors, those range from now from our sponsors, those range from now from our sponsors, those range from like obviously some cash, but also we like obviously some cash, but also we like obviously some cash, but also we get some just like credits on like Azure get some just like credits on like Azure get some just like credits on like Azure or AWS or anything like that or we get or AWS or anything like that or we get or AWS or anything like that or we get hardware or hosting, we get bandwidth, hardware or hosting, we get bandwidth, hardware or hosting, we get bandwidth, we get services, that kind of stuff. And we get services, that kind of stuff. And we get services, that kind of stuff. And a couple of our bigger sponsors actually a couple of our bigger sponsors actually a couple of our bigger sponsors actually employ people to work on the project, employ people to work on the project, employ people to work on the project, which is one of the things that I which is one of the things that I which is one of the things that I learned about when I was working at learned about when I was working at learned about when I was working at Microsoft with you.

Microsoft with you. Microsoft with you. I figured out that we could, you know, I figured out that we could, you know, I figured out that we could, you know, convince people to hire people full-time convince people to hire people full-time convince people to hire people full-time to work solely on Elma Linux, and it's to work solely on Elma Linux, and it's to work solely on Elma Linux, and it's been really, really great. And those are been really, really great. And those are been really, really great. And those are the sorts of situations where people the sorts of situations where people the sorts of situations where people start to feel like they have the ability start to feel like they have the ability start to feel like they have the ability to say yes or no to things, right? Well, to say yes or no to things, right? Well, to say yes or no to things, right? Well, I pay those employees, so I get to I pay those employees, so I get to I pay those employees, so I get to decide what they work on or what they decide what they work on or what they decide what they work on or what they don't work on. And we have to say, no, don't work on. And we have to say, no, don't work on. And we have to say, no, actually, the project decides what they actually, the project decides what they actually, the project decides what they work on because that's what you're work on because that's what you're work on because that's what you're doing. you're paying them to work for doing. you're paying them to work for doing. you're paying them to work for the project. You're not paying them to the project. You're not paying them to the project. You're not paying them to work for you. And when that distinction work for you. And when that distinction work for you. And when that distinction has to be made, I think it gets really has to be made, I think it gets really has to be made, I think it gets really interesting. And you you start to see interesting. And you you start to see interesting. And you you start to see the let's say integrity of the project, the let's say integrity of the project, the let's say integrity of the project, right? You get to start to see if the right? You get to start to see if the right? You get to start to see if the project really is willing to stand up project really is willing to stand up project really is willing to stand up and say, "No, we're serving our and say, "No, we're serving our and say, "No, we're serving our community." Whether or not you give us community." Whether or not you give us community." Whether or not you give us money, money, money, >> and we like your money because it helps >> and we like your money because it helps >> and we like your money because it helps keep us going, and we like that you pay keep us going, and we like that you pay keep us going, and we like that you pay developers because those do the work. developers because those do the work. developers because those do the work. But if you aren't on board with But if you aren't on board with But if you aren't on board with supporting the project and the way that supporting the project and the way that supporting the project and the way that the project needs to be supported, the project needs to be supported, the project needs to be supported, that's okay. We can we'll shift how that's okay. We can we'll shift how that's okay. We can we'll shift how we'll shift our relationship. Right?

we'll shift our relationship. Right? we'll shift our relationship. Right? >> So if the if the amount of money that >> So if the if the amount of money that >> So if the if the amount of money that the foundation has is so is so the foundation has is so is so the foundation has is so is so relatively small, like it's not more relatively small, like it's not more relatively small, like it's not more than a couple of full-time people, then than a couple of full-time people, then than a couple of full-time people, then the amount of money that you can pay the the amount of money that you can pay the the amount of money that you can pay the >> people you can't really pay a bunch of >> people you can't really pay a bunch of >> people you can't really pay a bunch of full-time folks. full-time folks. full-time folks. >> Nobody Nobody is paid by the foundation. >> Nobody Nobody is paid by the foundation. >> Nobody Nobody is paid by the foundation. Zero people. Zero people. Zero people. >> Okay. And that's on purpose. >> Okay. And that's on purpose. >> Okay. And that's on purpose. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Yeah. I mean, at this point it is >> Yeah. I mean, at this point it is >> Yeah. I mean, at this point it is because we don't have the money to pay because we don't have the money to pay because we don't have the money to pay them, right? them, right? them, right? >> But if like 2 million bucks showed up >> But if like 2 million bucks showed up >> But if like 2 million bucks showed up tomorrow, would that mean you'd hire tomorrow, would that mean you'd hire tomorrow, would that mean you'd hire people or would you support your people or would you support your people or would you support your infrastructure? Where would you do with infrastructure? Where would you do with infrastructure? Where would you do with an infusion like that? an infusion like that? an infusion like that? >> We we have a list of like we wish we >> We we have a list of like we wish we >> We we have a list of like we wish we could do this with if $2 million showed could do this with if $2 million showed could do this with if $2 million showed up and we thought it was going to stick up and we thought it was going to stick up and we thought it was going to stick around, we would definitely hire around, we would definitely hire around, we would definitely hire somebody. somebody. somebody. >> We we'd hire >> We we'd hire >> We we'd hire >> maybe a couple of somebody's depending >> maybe a couple of somebody's depending >> maybe a couple of somebody's depending on where we wanted to be able to put on where we wanted to be able to put on where we wanted to be able to put things. Mhm. things. Mhm. things. Mhm. >> Because then we start to like pull even >> Because then we start to like pull even >> Because then we start to like pull even further into that like absolute further into that like absolute further into that like absolute guaranteed neutrality. Right. guaranteed neutrality. Right. guaranteed neutrality. Right. >> Right. Right. >> Right. Right. >> Right. Right. Do do you get into a chicken and the egg Do do you get into a chicken and the egg Do do you get into a chicken and the egg situation where a company a big situation where a company a big situation where a company a big company's like I want a forever free company's like I want a forever free company's like I want a forever free enterprise Linux distribution because enterprise Linux distribution because enterprise Linux distribution because like the irony of having so little money like the irony of having so little money like the irony of having so little money but also having the word enterprise but also having the word enterprise but also having the word enterprise >> in your core description of what you're >> in your core description of what you're >> in your core description of what you're trying to accomplish means that you get trying to accomplish means that you get trying to accomplish means that you get a chicken and the egg thing where it's a chicken and the egg thing where it's a chicken and the egg thing where it's like well I can't really trust you like well I can't really trust you like well I can't really trust you unless you're bigger but I'm not going unless you're bigger but I'm not going unless you're bigger but I'm not going to give you money unless you're bigger to give you money unless you're bigger to give you money unless you're bigger so go get bigger without my money. Yeah, so go get bigger without my money. Yeah, so go get bigger without my money. Yeah, we've definitely had some of that.

we've definitely had some of that. we've definitely had some of that. Especially like when we're talking about Especially like when we're talking about Especially like when we're talking about Well, I'm not I'm not going to name Well, I'm not I'm not going to name Well, I'm not I'm not going to name names because I don't want to I'm not names because I don't want to I'm not names because I don't want to I'm not trying to start beef. trying to start beef. trying to start beef. >> Yeah, we're not trying to start beef. >> Yeah, we're not trying to start beef. >> Yeah, we're not trying to start beef. >> Exactly. But we >> Exactly. But we >> Exactly. But we >> It's not a beef podcast, Benny. >> It's not a beef podcast, Benny. >> It's not a beef podcast, Benny. >> Maybe maybe it should be, >> Maybe maybe it should be, >> Maybe maybe it should be, >> but no, we've uh we've definitely had >> but no, we've uh we've definitely had >> but no, we've uh we've definitely had especially like vendors who we want, you especially like vendors who we want, you especially like vendors who we want, you know, we h have users that say we need know, we h have users that say we need know, we h have users that say we need this support. Why aren't you supporting this support. Why aren't you supporting this support. Why aren't you supporting on the Linux? And then we we go to the on the Linux? And then we we go to the on the Linux? And then we we go to the vendors and we say, "Hey, we have these vendors and we say, "Hey, we have these vendors and we say, "Hey, we have these users that need this support. Can we can users that need this support. Can we can users that need this support. Can we can we help you make sure this happens?" And we help you make sure this happens?" And we help you make sure this happens?" And they say, "Well, we don't really see they say, "Well, we don't really see they say, "Well, we don't really see anybody asking for it." And then we send anybody asking for it." And then we send anybody asking for it." And then we send them the people that are asking for it. them the people that are asking for it. them the people that are asking for it. And they're like, "Well, you know, we we And they're like, "Well, you know, we we And they're like, "Well, you know, we we don't really we don't really see the don't really we don't really see the don't really we don't really see the benefit for us." And we're like, okay, benefit for us." And we're like, okay, benefit for us." And we're like, okay, if we're sending you like billiondoll if we're sending you like billiondoll if we're sending you like billiondoll companies that say we will buy more of companies that say we will buy more of companies that say we will buy more of your product if you support Alma Linux, your product if you support Alma Linux, your product if you support Alma Linux, what are we missing? Because it's not what are we missing? Because it's not what are we missing? Because it's not this at this point, it's not about our this at this point, it's not about our this at this point, it's not about our size. It's not about your customer size. It's not about your customer size. It's not about your customer demand. Like what are you what are you demand. Like what are you what are you demand. Like what are you what are you actually holding back on?

actually holding back on? actually holding back on? >> Right. So, it's been it's been an >> Right. So, it's been it's been an >> Right. So, it's been it's been an interesting thing because those people interesting thing because those people interesting thing because those people like there's obviously something else like there's obviously something else like there's obviously something else there that they're waiting to see, but there that they're waiting to see, but there that they're waiting to see, but there's definitely there's definitely there's definitely there's definitely there's definitely there's definitely been the the ones that are just like, been the the ones that are just like, been the the ones that are just like, you know, I'm going to hold my money to you know, I'm going to hold my money to you know, I'm going to hold my money to know that you're actually going to stick know that you're actually going to stick know that you're actually going to stick around for a little while. I want to around for a little while. I want to around for a little while. I want to make sure that's a good investment. I'm make sure that's a good investment. I'm make sure that's a good investment. I'm like, you're already using us. You know, like, you're already using us. You know, like, you're already using us. You know, it's a good investment. What are you it's a good investment. What are you it's a good investment. What are you doing? doing? doing? >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> So, so you know that I came to Microsoft >> So, so you know that I came to Microsoft >> So, so you know that I came to Microsoft to work on.NET net and to work on open to work on.NET net and to work on open to work on.NET net and to work on open source and I've been very fortunate to source and I've been very fortunate to source and I've been very fortunate to like work and own the OSPO with Jeff like work and own the OSPO with Jeff like work and own the OSPO with Jeff Wilcox and his team and work with really Wilcox and his team and work with really Wilcox and his team and work with really cool people that have gotten.NET cool people that have gotten.NET cool people that have gotten.NET and C packages into the Red Hat Linux and C packages into the Red Hat Linux and C packages into the Red Hat Linux appstream repository. So, .NET is a appstream repository. So, .NET is a appstream repository. So, .NET is a first class component like and it's like first class component like and it's like first class component like and it's like 10 years later and we're still trying to 10 years later and we're still trying to 10 years later and we're still trying to convince people that like hey you know convince people that like hey you know convince people that like hey you know re 9 has re 9 has re 9 has >> does that mean that it that Alma does >> does that mean that it that Alma does >> does that mean that it that Alma does too? Yeah. Yeah. Any of the any of the too? Yeah. Yeah. Any of the any of the too? Yeah. Yeah. Any of the any of the core packages uh in the OS we ship by core packages uh in the OS we ship by core packages uh in the OS we ship by default. Anything that's shipped outside default. Anything that's shipped outside default. Anything that's shipped outside of that we are uh you know if it's like of that we are uh you know if it's like of that we are uh you know if it's like Apple or whatever then you fully support Apple or whatever then you fully support Apple or whatever then you fully support Almix and Apple.

Almix and Apple. Almix and Apple. >> All of that kind of stuff. Anything that >> All of that kind of stuff. Anything that >> All of that kind of stuff. Anything that you use or can use for Red Hat you can you use or can use for Red Hat you can you use or can use for Red Hat you can use for us unless for some reason the use for us unless for some reason the use for us unless for some reason the the software provider is looking for a the software provider is looking for a the software provider is looking for a very specific operating system which very specific operating system which very specific operating system which some of them do which is around. Yeah. some of them do which is around. Yeah. some of them do which is around. Yeah. Hopefully they're looking for function Hopefully they're looking for function Hopefully they're looking for function entry points and rather than names of of entry points and rather than names of of entry points and rather than names of of operating systems. operating systems. operating systems. >> Exactly. Yeah. >> Exactly. Yeah. >> Exactly. Yeah. >> Okay. Cool. So then I think it's called >> Okay. Cool. So then I think it's called >> Okay. Cool. So then I think it's called and and forgive me if I get this wrong. and and forgive me if I get this wrong. and and forgive me if I get this wrong. DNF which is actually dandified yum DNF which is actually dandified yum DNF which is actually dandified yum which is RPM which is Red Hat package. which is RPM which is Red Hat package. which is RPM which is Red Hat package. It's so funny. Y'all when I say y'all I It's so funny. Y'all when I say y'all I It's so funny. Y'all when I say y'all I mean y'all Linux people. Y'all love your mean y'all Linux people. Y'all love your mean y'all Linux people. Y'all love your threeletter acronyms. And then you love threeletter acronyms. And then you love threeletter acronyms. And then you love your recursive self-referential your recursive self-referential your recursive self-referential three-letter acronyms, whether it be GNU three-letter acronyms, whether it be GNU three-letter acronyms, whether it be GNU or RPM or like we'll call it DNF. What's or RPM or like we'll call it DNF. What's or RPM or like we'll call it DNF. What's that mean? Dandified yum. What does that mean? Dandified yum. What does that mean? Dandified yum. What does that? Well, it's like yum, but it's that? Well, it's like yum, but it's that? Well, it's like yum, but it's better. It's dandified, right? So much better. It's dandified, right? So much better. It's dandified, right? So much it's so much better. And how do you it's so much better. And how do you it's so much better. And how do you explain that to someone? explain that to someone? explain that to someone? >> But but yeah, so I can go and just >> But but yeah, so I can go and just >> But but yeah, so I can go and just >> give them definitions to >> give them definitions to >> give them definitions to >> dnf install.net and it works. And then I >> dnf install.net and it works. And then I >> dnf install.net and it works. And then I didn't even know this. I installed Alma didn't even know this. I installed Alma didn't even know this. I installed Alma on uh WSL on Windows Subsystem for on uh WSL on Windows Subsystem for on uh WSL on Windows Subsystem for Linux.

Linux. Linux. >> So now I'm over here chilling on my >> So now I'm over here chilling on my >> So now I'm over here chilling on my Windows machine running Alma happily Windows machine running Alma happily Windows machine running Alma happily >> which is crazy. I love it. >> which is crazy. I love it. >> which is crazy. I love it. >> Yeah, it's it's super easy to work to >> Yeah, it's it's super easy to work to >> Yeah, it's it's super easy to work to work with in WSL and honestly basically work with in WSL and honestly basically work with in WSL and honestly basically anywhere you want it. Like I cannot It's anywhere you want it. Like I cannot It's anywhere you want it. Like I cannot It's been more than a year since I've even been more than a year since I've even been more than a year since I've even found like a web host that doesn't found like a web host that doesn't found like a web host that doesn't provide on the links. Like it's it's provide on the links. Like it's it's provide on the links. Like it's it's everywhere everywhere everywhere >> really. Yeah. >> really. Yeah. >> really. Yeah. >> Okay. So then what does what does >> Okay. So then what does what does >> Okay. So then what does what does success look like? Is it just ongoing success look like? Is it just ongoing success look like? Is it just ongoing continued support and making sure that continued support and making sure that continued support and making sure that people can count on things? Because it people can count on things? Because it people can count on things? Because it seems to me like y'all have a long seems to me like y'all have a long seems to me like y'all have a long perspective like you want people to have perspective like you want people to have perspective like you want people to have reliable and stable operating systems reliable and stable operating systems reliable and stable operating systems for a decade, not for a decade, not for a decade, not >> six months of support. >> six months of support. >> six months of support. >> Yeah, exactly. I want the the big thing >> Yeah, exactly. I want the the big thing >> Yeah, exactly. I want the the big thing for me is both from the operating for me is both from the operating for me is both from the operating perspect the operating systems perspect the operating systems perspect the operating systems perspective which is you know 10 years perspective which is you know 10 years perspective which is you know 10 years of support and making sure that things of support and making sure that things of support and making sure that things continue to be stable and long-term the continue to be stable and long-term the continue to be stable and long-term the solution that people need but also for solution that people need but also for solution that people need but also for the organization. So, I don't want to the organization. So, I don't want to the organization. So, I don't want to set up an organization that relies on set up an organization that relies on set up an organization that relies on me. Like, I I am, you know, a relatively me. Like, I I am, you know, a relatively me. Like, I I am, you know, a relatively stable person now that I'm over over 40 stable person now that I'm over over 40 stable person now that I'm over over 40 and have all of the things that I need and have all of the things that I need and have all of the things that I need in my life.

in my life. in my life. >> But I also know that I'm probably not >> But I also know that I'm probably not >> But I also know that I'm probably not going to want to do this for 20 years. going to want to do this for 20 years. going to want to do this for 20 years. So making it independent in a way that So making it independent in a way that So making it independent in a way that is going to outlast me is going to is going to outlast me is going to is going to outlast me is going to outlast the people that are working on outlast the people that are working on outlast the people that are working on it now is going to continue to have the it now is going to continue to have the it now is going to continue to have the long-term support from the community long-term support from the community long-term support from the community that it needs in order to survive for 20 that it needs in order to survive for 20 that it needs in order to survive for 20 years or more. years or more. years or more. >> I that for me is the success setting it >> I that for me is the success setting it >> I that for me is the success setting it up so that it it outlasts everybody up so that it it outlasts everybody up so that it it outlasts everybody that's here right now. that's here right now. that's here right now. >> That is a really challenging thing. >> That is a really challenging thing. >> That is a really challenging thing. That's successor management, right? like That's successor management, right? like That's successor management, right? like you're you're the the boss of the board, you're you're the the boss of the board, you're you're the the boss of the board, >> but you also, as with anyone in >> but you also, as with anyone in >> but you also, as with anyone in software, you have a high bus factor, software, you have a high bus factor, software, you have a high bus factor, >> right? You get hit by a bus, does the >> right? You get hit by a bus, does the >> right? You get hit by a bus, does the project continue? It will be sad. We project continue? It will be sad. We project continue? It will be sad. We will call back to this podcast and say, will call back to this podcast and say, will call back to this podcast and say, remember that time that Benny was on the remember that time that Benny was on the remember that time that Benny was on the podcast, but like you don't want any one podcast, but like you don't want any one podcast, but like you don't want any one person to be the thing that makes makes person to be the thing that makes makes person to be the thing that makes makes the product successful or not. the product successful or not. the product successful or not. >> Exactly. Exactly. >> Exactly. Exactly. >> Exactly. Exactly. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Yeah. And that's why that governance >> Yeah. And that's why that governance >> Yeah. And that's why that governance thing that people don't think enough thing that people don't think enough thing that people don't think enough about is so important. And you've about is so important. And you've about is so important. And you've assembled a governance structure around assembled a governance structure around assembled a governance structure around this to avoid those things.

this to avoid those things. this to avoid those things. >> Yeah, it was really important for us >> Yeah, it was really important for us >> Yeah, it was really important for us that it's both completely independent that it's both completely independent that it's both completely independent and cannot be bought or so sold. and cannot be bought or so sold. and cannot be bought or so sold. >> So setting up a nonprofit was the top of >> So setting up a nonprofit was the top of >> So setting up a nonprofit was the top of the priority list because in the US the priority list because in the US the priority list because in the US nonprofits can't be bought or sold. nonprofits can't be bought or sold. nonprofits can't be bought or sold. >> So it was super important to us that >> So it was super important to us that >> So it was super important to us that that distinction was made. And then all that distinction was made. And then all that distinction was made. And then all of the the governance the board is all of the the governance the board is all of the the governance the board is all community elected. It's all elected by community elected. It's all elected by community elected. It's all elected by members of the Amal Linux Foundation. members of the Amal Linux Foundation. members of the Amal Linux Foundation. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And the balance to the elected board is >> And the balance to the elected board is >> And the balance to the elected board is the self-managed and self-appointed the self-managed and self-appointed the self-managed and self-appointed Allesco. It's our Alinux engineering Allesco. It's our Alinux engineering Allesco. It's our Alinux engineering steering committee. And to me, that steering committee. And to me, that steering committee. And to me, that balance of both elected and self-managed balance of both elected and self-managed balance of both elected and self-managed means that we're getting the best of means that we're getting the best of means that we're getting the best of both worlds and we can kind of steer the both worlds and we can kind of steer the both worlds and we can kind of steer the project in the way that it needs to be project in the way that it needs to be project in the way that it needs to be steered. steered. steered. >> This might be a dumb question, but like >> This might be a dumb question, but like >> This might be a dumb question, but like we don't know if Linux on the everyone we don't know if Linux on the everyone we don't know if Linux on the everyone says this is the year of Linux on the says this is the year of Linux on the says this is the year of Linux on the desktop, right? It's always going to desktop, right? It's always going to desktop, right? It's always going to happen, but Alma Linux focuses on happen, but Alma Linux focuses on happen, but Alma Linux focuses on enterprise, but does that necessarily enterprise, but does that necessarily enterprise, but does that necessarily imply server versus client? Uh, it imply server versus client? Uh, it imply server versus client? Uh, it honestly doesn't because the thing I honestly doesn't because the thing I honestly doesn't because the thing I keep calling back to is it's you can use keep calling back to is it's you can use keep calling back to is it's you can use it anywhere you want, anywhere that you it anywhere you want, anywhere that you it anywhere you want, anywhere that you would use Alma or Red Hat. I mean, and would use Alma or Red Hat. I mean, and would use Alma or Red Hat. I mean, and we actually even have an atomic sig that we actually even have an atomic sig that we actually even have an atomic sig that is focused on a desktop version of Al is focused on a desktop version of Al is focused on a desktop version of Al Linux like desktop images because they Linux like desktop images because they Linux like desktop images because they find it to be so stable and so good and find it to be so stable and so good and find it to be so stable and so good and so useful in their environments. That's so useful in their environments. That's so useful in their environments. That's what they want to do. our whole uh I what they want to do. our whole uh I what they want to do. our whole uh I went to an event for the first time ever went to an event for the first time ever went to an event for the first time ever last last year called Sigraph.

last last year called Sigraph. last last year called Sigraph. >> Sigraph is a VFX focused event >> Sigraph is a VFX focused event >> Sigraph is a VFX focused event >> and I had no idea the adoption that we >> and I had no idea the adoption that we >> and I had no idea the adoption that we had gotten in the VFX industry until I had gotten in the VFX industry until I had gotten in the VFX industry until I went there and there's people from went there and there's people from went there and there's people from Sinite, there's people from ILM, there's Sinite, there's people from ILM, there's Sinite, there's people from ILM, there's people like all over the place that are people like all over the place that are people like all over the place that are like, "Yeah, we just switched our entire like, "Yeah, we just switched our entire like, "Yeah, we just switched our entire render farm to you and all of our render farm to you and all of our render farm to you and all of our desktops use you." I'm just like this is desktops use you." I'm just like this is desktops use you." I'm just like this is insanity to me insanity to me insanity to me >> because they value stability. >> because they value stability. >> because they value stability. >> Yeah. Stability. >> Yeah. Stability. >> Yeah. Stability. >> It has to just be stable and work. >> It has to just be stable and work. >> It has to just be stable and work. >> Exactly. Exactly. And we're customizable >> Exactly. Exactly. And we're customizable >> Exactly. Exactly. And we're customizable and like all of the things that they and like all of the things that they and like all of the things that they need. It's just it's been awesome to see need. It's just it's been awesome to see need. It's just it's been awesome to see that you know we we are being adopted that you know we we are being adopted that you know we we are being adopted both for crazy you know the render farms both for crazy you know the render farms both for crazy you know the render farms and the high performance computing and and the high performance computing and and the high performance computing and all that kind of stuff but also desktops all that kind of stuff but also desktops all that kind of stuff but also desktops >> because you you said the the year of the >> because you you said the the year of the >> because you you said the the year of the Linux desktop and that's been one of the Linux desktop and that's been one of the Linux desktop and that's been one of the longunning jokes in the Linux world longunning jokes in the Linux world longunning jokes in the Linux world right right right >> it's been happening for 40 years or 30 >> it's been happening for 40 years or 30 >> it's been happening for 40 years or 30 years years years >> exactly exactly but we actually hit 5% >> exactly exactly but we actually hit 5% >> exactly exactly but we actually hit 5% like a month ago like a month ago like a month ago >> seriously >> seriously >> seriously >> and yeah and so like there's been a lot >> and yeah and so like there's been a lot >> and yeah and so like there's been a lot of really huge improvements in the user of really huge improvements in the user of really huge improvements in the user experience um across desktop experience um across desktop experience um across desktop environments in the last five or six environments in the last five or six environments in the last five or six years that have really helped us gain years that have really helped us gain years that have really helped us gain traction because like normal users can traction because like normal users can traction because like normal users can use it and then the the end of life for use it and then the the end of life for use it and then the the end of life for Windows 10 there's actually I don't know Windows 10 there's actually I don't know Windows 10 there's actually I don't know how much you want me to talk about this how much you want me to talk about this how much you want me to talk about this but there's a whole uh movement right but there's a whole uh movement right but there's a whole uh movement right now around getting people to migrate now around getting people to migrate now around getting people to migrate from Windows 10 to a Linux distribution

from Windows 10 to a Linux distribution from Windows 10 to a Linux distribution of their choice so that their hardware of their choice so that their hardware of their choice so that their hardware can continue to be used because one of can continue to be used because one of can continue to be used because one of the big things is there's a bunch of the big things is there's a bunch of the big things is there's a bunch of really valid hardware that continue to really valid hardware that continue to really valid hardware that continue to be used but isn't isn't going to be be used but isn't isn't going to be be used but isn't isn't going to be supported in Windows 11 but is you know supported in Windows 11 but is you know supported in Windows 11 but is you know very easy to keep keep alive and very easy to keep keep alive and very easy to keep keep alive and continue to to be very useful if you continue to to be very useful if you continue to to be very useful if you switch to a Linux distro switch to a Linux distro switch to a Linux distro >> yeah the uh I think that some of my best >> yeah the uh I think that some of my best >> yeah the uh I think that some of my best laptops have been like 20-year-old like laptops have been like 20-year-old like laptops have been like 20-year-old like ThinkPads And if you find a ThinkPad, ThinkPads And if you find a ThinkPad, ThinkPads And if you find a ThinkPad, it's like, how could I bring this back? it's like, how could I bring this back? it's like, how could I bring this back? And whether it be like Lubuntu or Puppy And whether it be like Lubuntu or Puppy And whether it be like Lubuntu or Puppy or like Linux like or Alma, just these or like Linux like or Alma, just these or like Linux like or Alma, just these little Linuxes that are just fast as little Linuxes that are just fast as little Linuxes that are just fast as heck, bring bring a 20-year-old laptop heck, bring bring a 20-year-old laptop heck, bring bring a 20-year-old laptop back to life. Like you take back to life. Like you take back to life. Like you take >> you take one of those, you throw an SSD >> you take one of those, you throw an SSD >> you take one of those, you throw an SSD in it, in it, in it, >> double the RAM with whatever sticks you >> double the RAM with whatever sticks you >> double the RAM with whatever sticks you have around, and you're out there with have around, and you're out there with have around, and you're out there with even 8 gigs zipping around. even 8 gigs zipping around. even 8 gigs zipping around. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> And nontechnical parent can use that >> And nontechnical parent can use that >> And nontechnical parent can use that very easily. Exactly. And even we're very easily. Exactly. And even we're very easily. Exactly. And even we're talking about hardware support with Red talking about hardware support with Red talking about hardware support with Red Hat 10. They drop support for V2 chips.

Hat 10. They drop support for V2 chips. Hat 10. They drop support for V2 chips. Are you familiar with the whole Are you familiar with the whole Are you familiar with the whole versioning in x86 chips? So there's versioning in x86 chips? So there's versioning in x86 chips? So there's standards and chipset definitions. And standards and chipset definitions. And standards and chipset definitions. And in this case, they dropped support for in this case, they dropped support for in this case, they dropped support for the second version of it and have only the second version of it and have only the second version of it and have only been supporting V3 as of Red Hat 10. But been supporting V3 as of Red Hat 10. But been supporting V3 as of Red Hat 10. But even as recently as like two years ago, even as recently as like two years ago, even as recently as like two years ago, there were people selling brand new there were people selling brand new there were people selling brand new laptops with chipsets that were not V3, laptops with chipsets that were not V3, laptops with chipsets that were not V3, they're only V2. they're only V2. they're only V2. >> Oh, yeah. >> Oh, yeah. >> Oh, yeah. >> Yeah. That means that there are tons of >> Yeah. That means that there are tons of >> Yeah. That means that there are tons of pieces of hardware that people said, pieces of hardware that people said, pieces of hardware that people said, "Well, I I thought this was going to "Well, I I thought this was going to "Well, I I thought this was going to last me for a while and they're getting last me for a while and they're getting last me for a while and they're getting really stuck." really stuck." really stuck." >> So, they came to us and said, "Hey, will >> So, they came to us and said, "Hey, will >> So, they came to us and said, "Hey, will you release a version of anal Linux that you release a version of anal Linux that you release a version of anal Linux that supports me too?" And we, you know, we supports me too?" And we, you know, we supports me too?" And we, you know, we went through the engineering steering went through the engineering steering went through the engineering steering committee and said, "What do we think? committee and said, "What do we think? committee and said, "What do we think? How much work is this? Can we actually How much work is this? Can we actually How much work is this? Can we actually make this happen?" And we did because it make this happen?" And we did because it make this happen?" And we did because it was very valuable. And we we had a bunch was very valuable. And we we had a bunch was very valuable. And we we had a bunch of people, especially at Science Labs, of people, especially at Science Labs, of people, especially at Science Labs, that said, "We're going to, you know, that said, "We're going to, you know, that said, "We're going to, you know, we're going to have a huge amount of uh we're going to have a huge amount of uh we're going to have a huge amount of uh overhead in hardware if we have to overhead in hardware if we have to overhead in hardware if we have to replace all of this just because Red Hat replace all of this just because Red Hat replace all of this just because Red Hat has decided we'll probably just leave has decided we'll probably just leave has decided we'll probably just leave the Red Hat universe and we'll go the Red Hat universe and we'll go the Red Hat universe and we'll go someplace else."

someplace else." someplace else." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And so we didn't want to see that. like >> And so we didn't want to see that. like >> And so we didn't want to see that. like we we like the the Enterprise Linux we we like the the Enterprise Linux we we like the the Enterprise Linux ecosystem. So we helped with that. And ecosystem. So we helped with that. And ecosystem. So we helped with that. And then the next thing we had to do was then the next thing we had to do was then the next thing we had to do was build the extra p extra packages for build the extra p extra packages for build the extra p extra packages for Enterprise Linux repo. There's tons of Enterprise Linux repo. There's tons of Enterprise Linux repo. There's tons of packages that they that's a it's a packages that they that's a it's a packages that they that's a it's a Fedora project and there's tons of Fedora project and there's tons of Fedora project and there's tons of packages that they maintain and because packages that they maintain and because packages that they maintain and because they follow Red Hat, they weren't going they follow Red Hat, they weren't going they follow Red Hat, they weren't going to be supported for V2 either. So, we to be supported for V2 either. So, we to be supported for V2 either. So, we worked with the the Apple folks and worked with the the Apple folks and worked with the the Apple folks and said, "Hey, can we do you mind if we said, "Hey, can we do you mind if we said, "Hey, can we do you mind if we build these so that they'll work with build these so that they'll work with build these so that they'll work with our V2 version our V2 version our V2 version >> and they said, you know, they had some >> and they said, you know, they had some >> and they said, you know, they had some feedback and said, let's do it in this feedback and said, let's do it in this feedback and said, let's do it in this way. Let's make sure it works this way. way. Let's make sure it works this way. way. Let's make sure it works this way. Let's make sure the bugs get reported in Let's make sure the bugs get reported in Let's make sure the bugs get reported in the right place." Like that kind of the right place." Like that kind of the right place." Like that kind of stuff. So, now we're we're building all stuff. So, now we're we're building all stuff. So, now we're we're building all of Apple for this V2 version. And we've of Apple for this V2 version. And we've of Apple for this V2 version. And we've gotten way more adoption than I honestly gotten way more adoption than I honestly gotten way more adoption than I honestly expected. There was a lot of people expected. There was a lot of people expected. There was a lot of people that, you know, went to install an that, you know, went to install an that, you know, went to install an operating system and couldn't and said, operating system and couldn't and said, operating system and couldn't and said, "Well, what does this error mean?" and "Well, what does this error mean?" and "Well, what does this error mean?" and then figured it out and came to Alma and then figured it out and came to Alma and then figured it out and came to Alma and said, "Okay, this works now. I'm happy."

said, "Okay, this works now. I'm happy." said, "Okay, this works now. I'm happy." >> Now, I remember this. It's it's far more >> Now, I remember this. It's it's far more >> Now, I remember this. It's it's far more obscure than you would think, right? obscure than you would think, right? obscure than you would think, right? It's like a it's a time stamp counter It's like a it's a time stamp counter It's like a it's a time stamp counter and it was a specific instruction set and it was a specific instruction set and it was a specific instruction set within early like prepentiums within early like prepentiums within early like prepentiums >> to do a comparison. And I remembered >> to do a comparison. And I remembered >> to do a comparison. And I remembered that it was like, "Oh, well, if we that it was like, "Oh, well, if we that it was like, "Oh, well, if we just," basically the Linux kernel folks just," basically the Linux kernel folks just," basically the Linux kernel folks like to tidy up. And someone's like, you like to tidy up. And someone's like, you like to tidy up. And someone's like, you know, we can tidy up. There's like know, we can tidy up. There's like know, we can tidy up. There's like 15,000 lines here. We can just tidy up. 15,000 lines here. We can just tidy up. 15,000 lines here. We can just tidy up. And in the tidying up, which it's doing And in the tidying up, which it's doing And in the tidying up, which it's doing no one, it's harmless. It's doing no one, it's harmless. It's doing no one, it's harmless. It's doing nothing. It's not being run nothing. It's not being run nothing. It's not being run >> 99% of the time. But on an older >> 99% of the time. But on an older >> 99% of the time. But on an older machine, you know, that's on a 32-bit machine, you know, that's on a 32-bit machine, you know, that's on a 32-bit x86, it's like, "Nope, sorry. You're x86, it's like, "Nope, sorry. You're x86, it's like, "Nope, sorry. You're you're left behind." And, you know, you're left behind." And, you know, you're left behind." And, you know, Linux is known for not leaving folks Linux is known for not leaving folks Linux is known for not leaving folks behind. It's cool. behind. It's cool. behind. It's cool. uh that you made that decision as a uh that you made that decision as a uh that you made that decision as a community and brought that back because community and brought that back because community and brought that back because you're leaving a ton of people, you you're leaving a ton of people, you you're leaving a ton of people, you know, people who are on Linux kernel 6, know, people who are on Linux kernel 6, know, people who are on Linux kernel 6, was it 6.16 and and back? You're was it 6.16 and and back? You're was it 6.16 and and back? You're bringing them forward. So, was that a bringing them forward. So, was that a bringing them forward. So, was that a hard technical conversation? Like, did hard technical conversation? Like, did hard technical conversation? Like, did people was there an argument there or people was there an argument there or people was there an argument there or whether was everyone like, "Yeah, let's whether was everyone like, "Yeah, let's whether was everyone like, "Yeah, let's do it." It wasn't so much an argument as do it." It wasn't so much an argument as do it." It wasn't so much an argument as it was a is this something because we're it was a is this something because we're it was a is this something because we're we what we wanted to do was commit to it we what we wanted to do was commit to it we what we wanted to do was commit to it for 10 years.

for 10 years. for 10 years. >> And that means that like we had to be >> And that means that like we had to be >> And that means that like we had to be able to commit to it, right? Because if able to commit to it, right? Because if able to commit to it, right? Because if we're going to start it with Linux 10, we're going to start it with Linux 10, we're going to start it with Linux 10, we need to be able to commit to having we need to be able to commit to having we need to be able to commit to having support for this for the rest of for the support for this for the rest of for the support for this for the rest of for the life of Linux 10. life of Linux 10. life of Linux 10. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And whether or not we do it for Linux 11 >> And whether or not we do it for Linux 11 >> And whether or not we do it for Linux 11 will depend on what things look like at will depend on what things look like at will depend on what things look like at that point, right? that point, right? that point, right? >> Are we going to do it for another 10 >> Are we going to do it for another 10 >> Are we going to do it for another 10 years after that? years after that? years after that? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, very cool. Well, >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, very cool. Well, >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, very cool. Well, this has been very educational for me this has been very educational for me this has been very educational for me because, you know, you don't always hang because, you know, you don't always hang because, you know, you don't always hang out in other circles and then you out in other circles and then you out in other circles and then you discover, you think you know a thing and discover, you think you know a thing and discover, you think you know a thing and then you realize there's a whole other then you realize there's a whole other then you realize there's a whole other world out there. world out there. world out there. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Running on Alma Linux. Folks can check >> Running on Alma Linux. Folks can check >> Running on Alma Linux. Folks can check it out at alma.org. it out at alma.org. it out at alma.org. You can download directly from there. You can download directly from there. You can download directly from there. You can contribute directly from there. You can contribute directly from there. You can contribute directly from there. And then my last question, I believe you And then my last question, I believe you And then my last question, I believe you have an event coming up soon if folks have an event coming up soon if folks have an event coming up soon if folks are hearing this uh in in July. Yeah, we are hearing this uh in in July. Yeah, we are hearing this uh in in July. Yeah, we are we have semi-regular Elma Linux days are we have semi-regular Elma Linux days are we have semi-regular Elma Linux days which are like full day events that have which are like full day events that have which are like full day events that have a focus on a specific area of of need or a focus on a specific area of of need or a focus on a specific area of of need or community or something like that. We've community or something like that. We've community or something like that. We've done two in Tokyo uh that were focused done two in Tokyo uh that were focused done two in Tokyo uh that were focused on like educating people around open on like educating people around open on like educating people around open source and around Linux in general. And source and around Linux in general. And source and around Linux in general. And then we had one in Germany that was then we had one in Germany that was then we had one in Germany that was focused on the web hosting company or focused on the web hosting company or focused on the web hosting company or web hosting world web hosting world web hosting world >> because it was adjacent to an event >> because it was adjacent to an event >> because it was adjacent to an event called uh Cloudfest. So it's like all called uh Cloudfest. So it's like all called uh Cloudfest. So it's like all like web hosting people. And on August like web hosting people. And on August like web hosting people. And on August 9th, we will be having our first one in 9th, we will be having our first one in 9th, we will be having our first one in Canada. It's in Vancouver in in British Canada. It's in Vancouver in in British Canada. It's in Vancouver in in British Columbia.

Columbia. Columbia. >> It's a full day event that is adjacent >> It's a full day event that is adjacent >> It's a full day event that is adjacent to an event called SIG graph. We already to an event called SIG graph. We already to an event called SIG graph. We already talked about it. It's that VFX event and talked about it. It's that VFX event and talked about it. It's that VFX event and we will be focusing on VFX needs and uh we will be focusing on VFX needs and uh we will be focusing on VFX needs and uh we've got a great lineup of people from we've got a great lineup of people from we've got a great lineup of people from all over the place that are going to all over the place that are going to all over the place that are going to come talk about all some really cool come talk about all some really cool come talk about all some really cool things and you get lunch. things and you get lunch. things and you get lunch. >> And you get lunch and you get lunch. >> And you get lunch and you get lunch. >> And you get lunch and you get lunch. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. >> So if you're in or around uh Vancouver >> So if you're in or around uh Vancouver >> So if you're in or around uh Vancouver all Alma Linux day Vancouver is coming all Alma Linux day Vancouver is coming all Alma Linux day Vancouver is coming up August 9th. You can check it out at up August 9th. You can check it out at up August 9th. You can check it out at alinux.org/blog. org/blog alinux.org/blog. org/blog alinux.org/blog. org/blog and see other events that are coming and and see other events that are coming and and see other events that are coming and going and get involved. And e easy to going and get involved. And e easy to going and get involved. And e easy to install, one line to install on WSL and install, one line to install on WSL and install, one line to install on WSL and an additional line for me to run.NET. So an additional line for me to run.NET. So an additional line for me to run.NET. So now I'm testing my .NET applications on now I'm testing my .NET applications on now I'm testing my .NET applications on Ubuntu and on uh Alma Linux and having Ubuntu and on uh Alma Linux and having Ubuntu and on uh Alma Linux and having no issues. I actually installed .NET 9 no issues. I actually installed .NET 9 no issues. I actually installed .NET 9 on Alma earlier today and it worked just on Alma earlier today and it worked just on Alma earlier today and it worked just fine. fine. fine. >> Fantastic. I love that. >> Fantastic. I love that. >> Fantastic. I love that. >> Very cool. Well, thank you so much uh >> Very cool. Well, thank you so much uh >> Very cool. Well, thank you so much uh Benny Vasquez for hanging out with me Benny Vasquez for hanging out with me Benny Vasquez for hanging out with me today.

today. today. >> No problem. Thanks for having me. >> No problem. Thanks for having me. >> No problem. Thanks for having me. >> This has been another episode of Hansel >> This has been another episode of Hansel >> This has been another episode of Hansel Minutes and we'll see you again next Minutes and we'll see you again next Minutes and we'll see you again next week.