Why Postgres? and why now? with Claire Giordano

Hey friends, it's Scott. I'm going to Hey friends, it's Scott. I'm going to take a moment in the middle of the show take a moment in the middle of the show take a moment in the middle of the show here and thank our new sponsor, Tupal. here and thank our new sponsor, Tupal. here and thank our new sponsor, Tupal. You know, I'm chatting with Johnny You know, I'm chatting with Johnny You know, I'm chatting with Johnny Marlor. You know, Johnny, pair Marlor. You know, Johnny, pair Marlor. You know, Johnny, pair programming is kind of a niche thing, programming is kind of a niche thing, programming is kind of a niche thing, right? Like I know a lot of devs that right? Like I know a lot of devs that right? Like I know a lot of devs that don't pair much at all. Do you really don't pair much at all. Do you really don't pair much at all. Do you really think it's worth pair programming? think it's worth pair programming? think it's worth pair programming? >> Yeah, I I think even if you're the best >> Yeah, I I think even if you're the best >> Yeah, I I think even if you're the best programmer in the world, there's always programmer in the world, there's always programmer in the world, there's always something you can learn from other something you can learn from other something you can learn from other people. And uh you know I think there's people. And uh you know I think there's people. And uh you know I think there's nothing like pairing that enables you to nothing like pairing that enables you to nothing like pairing that enables you to exchange like really technical exchange like really technical exchange like really technical expertise. Um you know for example I'm expertise. Um you know for example I'm expertise. Um you know for example I'm really systemsoriented you know I have really systemsoriented you know I have really systemsoriented you know I have exhaustive error handling. I wrote my exhaustive error handling. I wrote my exhaustive error handling. I wrote my own X11 library because the error own X11 library because the error own X11 library because the error handling wasn't good enough. And my handling wasn't good enough. And my handling wasn't good enough. And my co-orker Mikey he's he's completely co-orker Mikey he's he's completely co-orker Mikey he's he's completely different. He's he's really an expert on different. He's he's really an expert on different. He's he's really an expert on Mac OS. He's a big Objective C fan. Um, Mac OS. He's a big Objective C fan. Um, Mac OS. He's a big Objective C fan. Um, but because we've paired so much, we've but because we've paired so much, we've but because we've paired so much, we've slowly been able to build up um, slowly been able to build up um, slowly been able to build up um, expertise in each other's domains and expertise in each other's domains and expertise in each other's domains and styles, and he's taken some stuff from styles, and he's taken some stuff from styles, and he's taken some stuff from me and vice versa. Um, it's been really me and vice versa. Um, it's been really me and vice versa. Um, it's been really good to have that regular pairing and good to have that regular pairing and good to have that regular pairing and exchange of ideas and information. So, I exchange of ideas and information. So, I exchange of ideas and information. So, I I think it's really hard to get that and I think it's really hard to get that and I think it's really hard to get that and it's also hard to stay on the same page it's also hard to stay on the same page it's also hard to stay on the same page when you're not pairing with somebody in when you're not pairing with somebody in when you're not pairing with somebody in instead of, you know, trying to send instead of, you know, trying to send instead of, you know, trying to send comments to each other in a GitHub pull comments to each other in a GitHub pull comments to each other in a GitHub pull request and maybe arguing over request and maybe arguing over request and maybe arguing over something. Being able to slow down and something. Being able to slow down and something. Being able to slow down and take that time and work on something take that time and work on something take that time and work on something real with somebody, there's just nothing real with somebody, there's just nothing real with somebody, there's just nothing that replaces it.

that replaces it. that replaces it. >> Very cool. I think more people should >> Very cool. I think more people should >> Very cool. I think more people should try pairing. I did a lot of pairing in try pairing. I did a lot of pairing in try pairing. I did a lot of pairing in person. And the nearest thing you can do person. And the nearest thing you can do person. And the nearest thing you can do from pairing in person is using from pairing in person is using from pairing in person is using something like Tupil. You can check it something like Tupil. You can check it something like Tupil. You can check it out at tupil.app. app. It's the best out at tupil.app. app. It's the best out at tupil.app. app. It's the best remote pair programming app on both Mac remote pair programming app on both Mac remote pair programming app on both Mac OS and Windows. OS and Windows. OS and Windows. Hey friends, I'm Scott Hanselman and Hey friends, I'm Scott Hanselman and Hey friends, I'm Scott Hanselman and it's another episode of Hansel Minutes it's another episode of Hansel Minutes it's another episode of Hansel Minutes and today I'm chatting with Claire and today I'm chatting with Claire and today I'm chatting with Claire Jordano. How are you? Jordano. How are you? Jordano. How are you? >> I'm good. Super excited to be here. >> I'm good. Super excited to be here. >> I'm good. Super excited to be here. >> I'm glad. I'm glad. You work on >> I'm glad. I'm glad. You work on >> I'm glad. I'm glad. You work on Postgress, an open source database, and Postgress, an open source database, and Postgress, an open source database, and you do this for Microsoft. And it's you do this for Microsoft. And it's you do this for Microsoft. And it's unusual, of course, that you're working unusual, of course, that you're working unusual, of course, that you're working at open source at Microsoft. I people at open source at Microsoft. I people at open source at Microsoft. I people when I tell them I'm working on open when I tell them I'm working on open when I tell them I'm working on open source at Microsoft they're kind of source at Microsoft they're kind of source at Microsoft they're kind of shocked and surprised. How long have you shocked and surprised. How long have you shocked and surprised. How long have you been in the Postgress community been in the Postgress community been in the Postgress community >> since 2017? >> since 2017? >> since 2017? >> Okay, that's been a minute. >> Okay, that's been a minute. >> Okay, that's been a minute. >> It'll be it'll be like 10 years at some >> It'll be it'll be like 10 years at some >> It'll be it'll be like 10 years at some point but Postgress. Am I am I saying it point but Postgress. Am I am I saying it point but Postgress. Am I am I saying it correctly? Because I've heard Postgress correctly? Because I've heard Postgress correctly? Because I've heard Postgress SQL Postgress SQL. What's the right way SQL Postgress SQL. What's the right way SQL Postgress SQL. What's the right way to say this? to say this? to say this? >> Just say Postgress and that keeps it >> Just say Postgress and that keeps it >> Just say Postgress and that keeps it simple. But yes, when you when you spell simple. But yes, when you when you spell simple. But yes, when you when you spell it with the full official name, there is it with the full official name, there is it with the full official name, there is a there is a QL tagged on to the very a there is a QL tagged on to the very a there is a QL tagged on to the very end of it.

end of it. end of it. >> Okay. So, Postgress is the way to do it. >> Okay. So, Postgress is the way to do it. >> Okay. So, Postgress is the way to do it. Postgress has been around since 1986. Postgress has been around since 1986. Postgress has been around since 1986. When did you discover Postgress? When did you discover Postgress? When did you discover Postgress? >> I discovered Postgress when I first >> I discovered Postgress when I first >> I discovered Postgress when I first joined the Situs open-source team, which joined the Situs open-source team, which joined the Situs open-source team, which was a small San Francisco based startup was a small San Francisco based startup was a small San Francisco based startup in 2017. And Situs is an extension to in 2017. And Situs is an extension to in 2017. And Situs is an extension to Postgress. So that's kind of how I got Postgress. So that's kind of how I got Postgress. So that's kind of how I got >> how I got my start and uh in the >> how I got my start and uh in the >> how I got my start and uh in the beginning I was focused almost beginning I was focused almost beginning I was focused almost completely on the situs extension and completely on the situs extension and completely on the situs extension and then over time after Microsoft acquired then over time after Microsoft acquired then over time after Microsoft acquired the company I became more and more the company I became more and more the company I became more and more involved with the Postgress core uh and involved with the Postgress core uh and involved with the Postgress core uh and that's what I spend my my days on now. that's what I spend my my days on now. that's what I spend my my days on now. So, Situs was an extension, an open So, Situs was an extension, an open So, Situs was an extension, an open source extension to Postgress that made source extension to Postgress that made source extension to Postgress that made it more distributed, right? It basically it more distributed, right? It basically it more distributed, right? It basically allowed you to scale it out allowed you to scale it out allowed you to scale it out horizontally, horizontally, horizontally, >> but it's not a fork. It's not a copy or >> but it's not a fork. It's not a copy or >> but it's not a fork. It's not a copy or a fork of Postgress. It was literally a fork of Postgress. It was literally a fork of Postgress. It was literally done as an extension, which I think is done as an extension, which I think is done as an extension, which I think is surprising. surprising. surprising. Well, one of the things that I came to Well, one of the things that I came to Well, one of the things that I came to learn is that in the very first design learn is that in the very first design learn is that in the very first design document authored by Michael Stoneer and document authored by Michael Stoneer and document authored by Michael Stoneer and Lawrence Row back in like the 1986 time Lawrence Row back in like the 1986 time Lawrence Row back in like the 1986 time frame called the design of Postgress, frame called the design of Postgress, frame called the design of Postgress, the second design objective on there was the second design objective on there was the second design objective on there was the extensibility of Postgress in terms the extensibility of Postgress in terms the extensibility of Postgress in terms of data types and access methods and of data types and access methods and of data types and access methods and things like that. And so what I think is things like that. And so what I think is things like that. And so what I think is so cool is that part of what has made so cool is that part of what has made so cool is that part of what has made this ecosystem so big and has made the this ecosystem so big and has made the this ecosystem so big and has made the database so popular with developers is database so popular with developers is database so popular with developers is the extensibility and it's it's just I

the extensibility and it's it's just I the extensibility and it's it's just I don't know it was a very smart design don't know it was a very smart design don't know it was a very smart design decision back in the day. decision back in the day. decision back in the day. >> It truly was. I grew up doing doing SQL >> It truly was. I grew up doing doing SQL >> It truly was. I grew up doing doing SQL Server and there's this theory someone Server and there's this theory someone Server and there's this theory someone told me that you can tell if you're like told me that you can tell if you're like told me that you can tell if you're like a secret Microsofty because Microsofties a secret Microsofty because Microsofties a secret Microsofty because Microsofties say SQL and open source people say SQL. say SQL and open source people say SQL. say SQL and open source people say SQL. Is that true? Is that true? Is that true? >> I don't know if that's true. I have >> I don't know if that's true. I have >> I don't know if that's true. I have heard everything pronounced six ways to heard everything pronounced six ways to heard everything pronounced six ways to Sunday. In fact, I even made like a one Sunday. In fact, I even made like a one Sunday. In fact, I even made like a one minute video skit at one point making minute video skit at one point making minute video skit at one point making fun of all the different ways to spell fun of all the different ways to spell fun of all the different ways to spell and pronounce um Postgress. So there's a and pronounce um Postgress. So there's a and pronounce um Postgress. So there's a famous email that was sent probably in famous email that was sent probably in famous email that was sent probably in the 2006 2007 time frame from Tom Lane the 2006 2007 time frame from Tom Lane the 2006 2007 time frame from Tom Lane who's a very famous Postgress who's a very famous Postgress who's a very famous Postgress contributor and committer and engineer contributor and committer and engineer contributor and committer and engineer where he basically he talked about how where he basically he talked about how where he basically he talked about how maybe one of the worst decisions of the maybe one of the worst decisions of the maybe one of the worst decisions of the Postgress project was the name of it Postgress project was the name of it Postgress project was the name of it because it it does get mispronounced and because it it does get mispronounced and because it it does get mispronounced and it does easily get misspelled but it's it does easily get misspelled but it's it does easily get misspelled but it's too late to change it now. I think every too late to change it now. I think every too late to change it now. I think every good successful open source project has good successful open source project has good successful open source project has to have confusion about how to do the to have confusion about how to do the to have confusion about how to do the name, whether it be EngineX or name, whether it be EngineX or name, whether it be EngineX or Kubernetes or whatever. There was an old Kubernetes or whatever. There was an old Kubernetes or whatever. There was an old meme where someone pronounced Kubernetes meme where someone pronounced Kubernetes meme where someone pronounced Kubernetes as cyber noodles and they just basically as cyber noodles and they just basically as cyber noodles and they just basically gave up in the early days. [laughter] gave up in the early days. [laughter] gave up in the early days. [laughter] >> So I started heard that one.

>> So I started heard that one. >> So I started heard that one. >> Yeah. So I was doing Microsoft SQL >> Yeah. So I was doing Microsoft SQL >> Yeah. So I was doing Microsoft SQL Server back in the uh early 90s like on Server back in the uh early 90s like on Server back in the uh early 90s like on on Windows NT and Postgress. I don't on Windows NT and Postgress. I don't on Windows NT and Postgress. I don't think I even heard about Postgress until think I even heard about Postgress until think I even heard about Postgress until about 10 years ago when I started about 10 years ago when I started about 10 years ago when I started studying though. This is a 40-year-old studying though. This is a 40-year-old studying though. This is a 40-year-old project, but somehow there's a freshness project, but somehow there's a freshness project, but somehow there's a freshness to it. That surprises me. Is that what to it. That surprises me. Is that what to it. That surprises me. Is that what do you think makes it feel fresh right do you think makes it feel fresh right do you think makes it feel fresh right now? now? now? >> That is a really hard question to >> That is a really hard question to >> That is a really hard question to answer. I was at a conference last week answer. I was at a conference last week answer. I was at a conference last week in Latvia of all places. It's the annual in Latvia of all places. It's the annual in Latvia of all places. It's the annual European um Postgress conference that European um Postgress conference that European um Postgress conference that moves around to different countries and moves around to different countries and moves around to different countries and cities every year. And I was walking the cities every year. And I was walking the cities every year. And I was walking the hallway and talking to people you hallway and talking to people you hallway and talking to people you because I knew I was going to be on the because I knew I was going to be on the because I knew I was going to be on the show, right? I wanted to not just show, right? I wanted to not just show, right? I wanted to not just represent what Claire thinks, but you represent what Claire thinks, but you represent what Claire thinks, but you know, harness the ideas and perspectives know, harness the ideas and perspectives know, harness the ideas and perspectives of others. And I was asking them this of others. And I was asking them this of others. And I was asking them this question about why why is it so popular? question about why why is it so popular? question about why why is it so popular? And of course, I got a lot of different And of course, I got a lot of different And of course, I got a lot of different answers. So there's there's I think answers. So there's there's I think answers. So there's there's I think there are many reasons just like if you there are many reasons just like if you there are many reasons just like if you ever study a car accident this is ever study a car accident this is ever study a car accident this is changing something positive to something changing something positive to something changing something positive to something negative. There's often multiple factors negative. There's often multiple factors negative. There's often multiple factors that lead up to the accident and so in that lead up to the accident and so in that lead up to the accident and so in many ways this is a happy accident that many ways this is a happy accident that many ways this is a happy accident that Postgress is in such a good place but Postgress is in such a good place but Postgress is in such a good place but there are there are different factors.

there are there are different factors. there are there are different factors. Um I I you know where where do you want Um I I you know where where do you want Um I I you know where where do you want to start? Well, I was thinking when I to start? Well, I was thinking when I to start? Well, I was thinking when I think about open- source SQL, I think think about open- source SQL, I think think about open- source SQL, I think about Postgress. I think about MySQL or about Postgress. I think about MySQL or about Postgress. I think about MySQL or MySQL and I think about SQLite. MySQL and I think about SQLite. MySQL and I think about SQLite. But Postgress is the first among equals, But Postgress is the first among equals, But Postgress is the first among equals, it's so much more. It's more standards it's so much more. It's more standards it's so much more. It's more standards compliant. It's got better scalability. compliant. It's got better scalability. compliant. It's got better scalability. Like with all due respect to the MySQL Like with all due respect to the MySQL Like with all due respect to the MySQL and the SQLites, they almost feel like and the SQLites, they almost feel like and the SQLites, they almost feel like toys compared to Postgress. So I feel toys compared to Postgress. So I feel toys compared to Postgress. So I feel like Postgress is one of the like slow like Postgress is one of the like slow like Postgress is one of the like slow and steady wins the race. Like just and steady wins the race. Like just and steady wins the race. Like just grind it out. Focus on standards grind it out. Focus on standards grind it out. Focus on standards compliance. focus on really good quality compliance. focus on really good quality compliance. focus on really good quality enterprise use cases and then it is an enterprise use cases and then it is an enterprise use cases and then it is an overnight success in 40 years. That's my overnight success in 40 years. That's my overnight success in 40 years. That's my theory. theory. theory. >> It's a good theory and it works. Let's >> It's a good theory and it works. Let's >> It's a good theory and it works. Let's add to it. Let's let's pile on some some add to it. Let's let's pile on some some add to it. Let's let's pile on some some other aspects. Obviously, Postgress is other aspects. Obviously, Postgress is other aspects. Obviously, Postgress is open source so people know that. And it open source so people know that. And it open source so people know that. And it has a very permissive license which has a very permissive license which has a very permissive license which means it's okay to fork it. It's okay to means it's okay to fork it. It's okay to means it's okay to fork it. It's okay to pretty much do anything. The license is pretty much do anything. The license is pretty much do anything. The license is called the PostgresQL license but you called the PostgresQL license but you called the PostgresQL license but you could think of it as similar to MIT or could think of it as similar to MIT or could think of it as similar to MIT or similar to BST just very liberal uh in similar to BST just very liberal uh in similar to BST just very liberal uh in terms of what you can do and terms of what you can do and terms of what you can do and as a result it means a lot of as a result it means a lot of as a result it means a lot of universities use it a lot of people universities use it a lot of people universities use it a lot of people learn it in college it's very easy to learn it in college it's very easy to learn it in college it's very easy to get started with it and kick the tires get started with it and kick the tires get started with it and kick the tires as a developer as a developer as a developer and so I think the openness of it has and so I think the openness of it has and so I think the openness of it has definitely contributed to the the definitely contributed to the the definitely contributed to the the expertise that people have when they're expertise that people have when they're expertise that people have when they're interested in data and when they're interested in data and when they're interested in data and when they're interested in analyzing data. [snorts]

interested in analyzing data. [snorts] interested in analyzing data. [snorts] What else? You know, it helps it helps What else? You know, it helps it helps What else? You know, it helps it helps that Postgress doesn't belong to any one that Postgress doesn't belong to any one that Postgress doesn't belong to any one company. And company. And company. And >> that was my next question. I was like, >> that was my next question. I was like, >> that was my next question. I was like, what's the giant company that owns it? what's the giant company that owns it? what's the giant company that owns it? >> Yeah, there is no giant company. >> Yeah, there is no giant company. >> Yeah, there is no giant company. Microsoft has a whole bunch of people on Microsoft has a whole bunch of people on Microsoft has a whole bunch of people on salary who work on the upstream salary who work on the upstream salary who work on the upstream Postgress open source project. You know, Postgress open source project. You know, Postgress open source project. You know, in addition, we we have our Azure in addition, we we have our Azure in addition, we we have our Azure database for Postgress offering that we database for Postgress offering that we database for Postgress offering that we that's a managed service that customers that's a managed service that customers that's a managed service that customers use, but but people like me and the use, but but people like me and the use, but but people like me and the developers who work on it, you know, developers who work on it, you know, developers who work on it, you know, we're focused on the open source we're focused on the open source we're focused on the open source project, but we're not the only company, project, but we're not the only company, project, but we're not the only company, right? EDB, Amazon, a lot of smaller right? EDB, Amazon, a lot of smaller right? EDB, Amazon, a lot of smaller companies, even Google have people who companies, even Google have people who companies, even Google have people who contribute to this project. And the contribute to this project. And the contribute to this project. And the collaboration is global. It's across so collaboration is global. It's across so collaboration is global. It's across so many different countries and continents. many different countries and continents. many different countries and continents. And there's a lot of commercial And there's a lot of commercial And there's a lot of commercial interests involved, but no one single interests involved, but no one single interests involved, but no one single company behind it. Some people call it company behind it. Some people call it company behind it. Some people call it sometimes the people's database because sometimes the people's database because sometimes the people's database because of that fact that the interests in it of that fact that the interests in it of that fact that the interests in it are so so distributed.

are so so distributed. are so so distributed. >> That makes me feel like its success is >> That makes me feel like its success is >> That makes me feel like its success is the fact that it never got purchased. the fact that it never got purchased. the fact that it never got purchased. >> Well, it certainly never got it never >> Well, it certainly never got it never >> Well, it certainly never got it never got bought by Oracle got bought by Oracle got bought by Oracle >> and and so >> and and so >> and and so nobody wants that. nobody wants that. nobody wants that. >> It's also was helpful. I was looking up >> It's also was helpful. I was looking up >> It's also was helpful. I was looking up the years. Let me let me go find them. the years. Let me let me go find them. the years. Let me let me go find them. Heroku Heroku Heroku went all in on a Postgress offering as a went all in on a Postgress offering as a went all in on a Postgress offering as a managed service back in 2007 managed service back in 2007 managed service back in 2007 >> and then Amazon launched RDS Postgress >> and then Amazon launched RDS Postgress >> and then Amazon launched RDS Postgress which is the managed service for which is the managed service for which is the managed service for Postgress in 2013. Postgress in 2013. Postgress in 2013. >> Azure came out with our managed >> Azure came out with our managed >> Azure came out with our managed Postgress offering in 2017. But if you Postgress offering in 2017. But if you Postgress offering in 2017. But if you go back to kind of Heroku and Amazon, go back to kind of Heroku and Amazon, go back to kind of Heroku and Amazon, they were almost like trends setters in they were almost like trends setters in they were almost like trends setters in this space. they they really this space. they they really this space. they they really commercialized access to people who commercialized access to people who commercialized access to people who wanted the managed service experience wanted the managed service experience wanted the managed service experience with it uh and helped to make it popular with it uh and helped to make it popular with it uh and helped to make it popular too. too. too. >> Yeah. and made it and made it cloud >> Yeah. and made it and made it cloud >> Yeah. and made it and made it cloud scale because I know that like in the scale because I know that like in the scale because I know that like in the early 2000s making Postgress enterprise early 2000s making Postgress enterprise early 2000s making Postgress enterprise ready and doing things like performance ready and doing things like performance ready and doing things like performance and table spaces and point in time and table spaces and point in time and table spaces and point in time recovery. These were all things that recovery. These were all things that recovery. These were all things that were like important check boxes in order were like important check boxes in order were like important check boxes in order to make sure that this was going to be a to make sure that this was going to be a to make sure that this was going to be a real alternative to an Oracle or to an real alternative to an Oracle or to an real alternative to an Oracle or to an SQL server.

SQL server. SQL server. And then if you go back to the '9s, I And then if you go back to the '9s, I And then if you go back to the '9s, I don't know if it was the early 2000s or don't know if it was the early 2000s or don't know if it was the early 2000s or the late 90s, but when Oracle came out the late 90s, but when Oracle came out the late 90s, but when Oracle came out with their multicore licensing, right, with their multicore licensing, right, with their multicore licensing, right, that that definitely made Oracle more that that definitely made Oracle more that that definitely made Oracle more expensive, which did prod some people to expensive, which did prod some people to expensive, which did prod some people to want to look for some relational want to look for some relational want to look for some relational database that was more affordable, but database that was more affordable, but database that was more affordable, but still could meet all the requirements. still could meet all the requirements. still could meet all the requirements. And then you said web scale that brings And then you said web scale that brings And then you said web scale that brings up the idea of NoSQL, right? and that up the idea of NoSQL, right? and that up the idea of NoSQL, right? and that wonderful cartoon that came out years wonderful cartoon that came out years wonderful cartoon that came out years ago. Um, ago. Um, ago. Um, >> but >> but >> but Postgress added support for JSON and Postgress added support for JSON and Postgress added support for JSON and JSON B too along the way. I think that JSON B too along the way. I think that JSON B too along the way. I think that was like 2012. And that I think was also was like 2012. And that I think was also was like 2012. And that I think was also a watershed moment in helping popularize a watershed moment in helping popularize a watershed moment in helping popularize post Postgress because it meant you post Postgress because it meant you post Postgress because it meant you could have this ability to create could have this ability to create could have this ability to create schemas that were more flexible in schemas that were more flexible in schemas that were more flexible in addition to having all of the benefits addition to having all of the benefits addition to having all of the benefits of relational and you could do that in of relational and you could do that in of relational and you could do that in one database. Um and and JSON support one database. Um and and JSON support one database. Um and and JSON support was added first and then JSON B right was added first and then JSON B right was added first and then JSON B right the binary object notation support came the binary object notation support came the binary object notation support came in probably a couple releases later. So in probably a couple releases later. So in probably a couple releases later. So there were all these different watershed there were all these different watershed there were all these different watershed moments that kind of added together and moments that kind of added together and moments that kind of added together and the community just got stronger and the community just got stronger and the community just got stronger and stronger.

stronger. stronger. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And >> And >> And >> well and those little features are the >> well and those little features are the >> well and those little features are the ones like Jason showed up just when we ones like Jason showed up just when we ones like Jason showed up just when we needed it, right? And Cloud Scale showed needed it, right? And Cloud Scale showed needed it, right? And Cloud Scale showed up just when we needed it. So it was it up just when we needed it. So it was it up just when we needed it. So it was it was there quietly improving itself and was there quietly improving itself and was there quietly improving itself and then it was ready to go. By the way, I then it was ready to go. By the way, I then it was ready to go. By the way, I did a little bit of research. You did a little bit of research. You did a little bit of research. You probably know this, but tell me if you probably know this, but tell me if you probably know this, but tell me if you do or not. So, Michael Stonereaker, who do or not. So, Michael Stonereaker, who do or not. So, Michael Stonereaker, who is now in his uh early 80s, is the uh is now in his uh early 80s, is the uh is now in his uh early 80s, is the uh computer scientist that worked on a computer scientist that worked on a computer scientist that worked on a database that was called Ingress database that was called Ingress database that was called Ingress interactive graphics and retrieval interactive graphics and retrieval interactive graphics and retrieval system in 1973. system in 1973. system in 1973. >> Postgress >> Postgress >> Postgress is literally their post ingress project. is literally their post ingress project. is literally their post ingress project. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> Correct. >> That's it's so funny. There's always a >> That's it's so funny. There's always a >> That's it's so funny. There's always a recursive acronym behind every great recursive acronym behind every great recursive acronym behind every great open- source project. There's always open- source project. There's always open- source project. There's always some 50-year-old story about what it some 50-year-old story about what it some 50-year-old story about what it stands for and now we've all forgotten stands for and now we've all forgotten stands for and now we've all forgotten it and we just say Postgress and smush it and we just say Postgress and smush it and we just say Postgress and smush it all together. it all together. it all together. >> You must think that's hilarious. About >> You must think that's hilarious. About >> You must think that's hilarious. About 10 years later, after it had been called 10 years later, after it had been called 10 years later, after it had been called Postgress for 10 years, SQL support was Postgress for 10 years, SQL support was Postgress for 10 years, SQL support was added and there was a decision to change added and there was a decision to change added and there was a decision to change the name to add, the name to add, the name to add, >> you know, to have it be Postgress QL and >> you know, to have it be Postgress QL and >> you know, to have it be Postgress QL and which was a good decision in many ways, which was a good decision in many ways, which was a good decision in many ways, but has led to all sorts of but has led to all sorts of but has led to all sorts of mispronunciation and misspellings and mispronunciation and misspellings and mispronunciation and misspellings and other challenges. So, and what was the other challenges. So, and what was the other challenges. So, and what was the joke you were telling me that has been joke you were telling me that has been joke you were telling me that has been told a million times before, right told a million times before, right told a million times before, right before we started the recording? There's before we started the recording? There's before we started the recording? There's two classic problems in computer science two classic problems in computer science two classic problems in computer science and the first is naming. Right.

and the first is naming. Right. and the first is naming. Right. >> Yeah. And the other ones are I think >> Yeah. And the other ones are I think >> Yeah. And the other ones are I think scale and off by one errors. scale and off by one errors. scale and off by one errors. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> There you go. >> There you go. >> There you go. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Hey friends, this is Scott. I want to >> Hey friends, this is Scott. I want to >> Hey friends, this is Scott. I want to take a moment and thank our new sponsor, take a moment and thank our new sponsor, take a moment and thank our new sponsor, Postman. You know, when I think about Postman. You know, when I think about Postman. You know, when I think about APIs, I think about Postman. I was APIs, I think about Postman. I was APIs, I think about Postman. I was chatting with Rodrik about how he's chatting with Rodrik about how he's chatting with Rodrik about how he's leveraging APIs to build agents. What leveraging APIs to build agents. What leveraging APIs to build agents. What benefits have you seen in building benefits have you seen in building benefits have you seen in building agents? agents? agents? Thanks Scott. We've seen a lot of Thanks Scott. We've seen a lot of Thanks Scott. We've seen a lot of internal benefits. We've been actually internal benefits. We've been actually internal benefits. We've been actually prototyping and deploying into prototyping and deploying into prototyping and deploying into production agents built with Postman production agents built with Postman production agents built with Postman flows inside of Postman across flows inside of Postman across flows inside of Postman across functions. Uh a lot of them are functions. Uh a lot of them are functions. Uh a lot of them are developer or operations um oriented developer or operations um oriented developer or operations um oriented things that help us for example things that help us for example things that help us for example summarize our Slack conversations into summarize our Slack conversations into summarize our Slack conversations into JR tickets or that automate our on call JR tickets or that automate our on call JR tickets or that automate our on call processes. uh but also in our marketing processes. uh but also in our marketing processes. uh but also in our marketing team and our sales team, our customer team and our sales team, our customer team and our sales team, our customer service teams, we've all deployed agents service teams, we've all deployed agents service teams, we've all deployed agents that help them cut down on a lot of that help them cut down on a lot of that help them cut down on a lot of chores and manual tasks that they do. chores and manual tasks that they do. chores and manual tasks that they do. The transformative power really comes The transformative power really comes The transformative power really comes from being able to connect an API that's from being able to connect an API that's from being able to connect an API that's AI ready to AI. Uh and Postman is a AI ready to AI. Uh and Postman is a AI ready to AI. Uh and Postman is a great place to do that. We have 100,000 great place to do that. We have 100,000 great place to do that. We have 100,000 plus APIs on the Postman API network. uh plus APIs on the Postman API network. uh plus APIs on the Postman API network. uh thousands of potentially uh readytouse thousands of potentially uh readytouse thousands of potentially uh readytouse APIs that you can compose into your APIs that you can compose into your APIs that you can compose into your agents right off the bat. And the agents right off the bat. And the agents right off the bat. And the transformative power of agents is they transformative power of agents is they transformative power of agents is they do the work for you. You don't have to do the work for you. You don't have to do the work for you. You don't have to sit there and do all the things manually sit there and do all the things manually sit there and do all the things manually and check them. They can just go off ask and check them. They can just go off ask and check them. They can just go off ask you when they need input, but otherwise you when they need input, but otherwise you when they need input, but otherwise they accomplish tasks and warp time. It they accomplish tasks and warp time. It they accomplish tasks and warp time. It just increases your efficiency overall.

just increases your efficiency overall. just increases your efficiency overall. AI agents are supposed to do the toil AI agents are supposed to do the toil AI agents are supposed to do the toil and the work that's not fun so that you and the work that's not fun so that you and the work that's not fun so that you can do the fun stuff. Postman flows lets can do the fun stuff. Postman flows lets can do the fun stuff. Postman flows lets you orchestrate APIs, logic, data you orchestrate APIs, logic, data you orchestrate APIs, logic, data visually to make those agents. And you visually to make those agents. And you visually to make those agents. And you can learn more at postman.com/hancel can learn more at postman.com/hancel can learn more at postman.com/hancel minutes. So we we have we're in the minutes. So we we have we're in the minutes. So we we have we're in the we're in the mid200s. We're developing a we're in the mid200s. We're developing a we're in the mid200s. We're developing a product that is open source. It's owned product that is open source. It's owned product that is open source. It's owned by no one. It is based on good solid by no one. It is based on good solid by no one. It is based on good solid computer science. It's also based on computer science. It's also based on computer science. It's also based on standards. It seems like there's a very standards. It seems like there's a very standards. It seems like there's a very much a focus of like whatever we're much a focus of like whatever we're much a focus of like whatever we're doing, we're going to make sure that doing, we're going to make sure that doing, we're going to make sure that we're very close to the full SQL we're very close to the full SQL we're very close to the full SQL standard and we have compliance. You standard and we have compliance. You standard and we have compliance. You know, MySQL, SQLite, other databases know, MySQL, SQLite, other databases know, MySQL, SQLite, other databases have have have partial and basic compliance and then partial and basic compliance and then partial and basic compliance and then also like you said a friendly license, also like you said a friendly license, also like you said a friendly license, but Postgress is also known for its its but Postgress is also known for its its but Postgress is also known for its its welcoming community. And that's probably welcoming community. And that's probably welcoming community. And that's probably not something that they built in in the not something that they built in in the not something that they built in in the 70s and 80s. like when was it welcoming 70s and 80s. like when was it welcoming 70s and 80s. like when was it welcoming when you got there or was that is that a when you got there or was that is that a when you got there or was that is that a conscious thing to always make sure that conscious thing to always make sure that conscious thing to always make sure that the Postgress community has chill vibes?

the Postgress community has chill vibes? the Postgress community has chill vibes? >> So I can't speak to before I got there >> So I can't speak to before I got there >> So I can't speak to before I got there but I can say that when I arrived on but I can say that when I arrived on but I can say that when I arrived on scene in 2017 and later it is a very scene in 2017 and later it is a very scene in 2017 and later it is a very welcoming community. Last week there welcoming community. Last week there welcoming community. Last week there were probably 680 of us in Latafia. Um were probably 680 of us in Latafia. Um were probably 680 of us in Latafia. Um many of whom are users who travel from many of whom are users who travel from many of whom are users who travel from other parts of Europe or other parts of other parts of Europe or other parts of other parts of Europe or other parts of the world to come and learn more about the world to come and learn more about the world to come and learn more about the latest capabilities of the release. the latest capabilities of the release. the latest capabilities of the release. But many of whom were contributors and But many of whom were contributors and But many of whom were contributors and community members um who were also in community members um who were also in community members um who were also in the hallways, you know, talking about the hallways, you know, talking about the hallways, you know, talking about the next release and you know, trying to the next release and you know, trying to the next release and you know, trying to solve problems and figure out how to solve problems and figure out how to solve problems and figure out how to collaborate. And I I I have personally collaborate. And I I I have personally collaborate. And I I I have personally always found it welcoming. And those who always found it welcoming. And those who always found it welcoming. And those who I know bend over backwards to try to I know bend over backwards to try to I know bend over backwards to try to figure out how do we, you know, grow figure out how do we, you know, grow figure out how do we, you know, grow grow new um contributors, grow new grow new um contributors, grow new grow new um contributors, grow new community members, if you will. Um and community members, if you will. Um and community members, if you will. Um and how how we do that, I don't know. I how how we do that, I don't know. I how how we do that, I don't know. I mean, there's code of conducts obviously mean, there's code of conducts obviously mean, there's code of conducts obviously that people take very seriously at these that people take very seriously at these that people take very seriously at these in-person conferences. There's also a in-person conferences. There's also a in-person conferences. There's also a lot of transparency in the open source lot of transparency in the open source lot of transparency in the open source projects. So we we use something that's projects. So we we use something that's projects. So we we use something that's a little bit old school which are a little bit old school which are a little bit old school which are mailing lists and there's a lot of mailing lists and there's a lot of mailing lists and there's a lot of collaboration that happens on the collaboration that happens on the collaboration that happens on the Postgress mailing list and if you're Postgress mailing list and if you're Postgress mailing list and if you're listening to the show you can go read listening to the show you can go read listening to the show you can go read what the committers and the contributors what the committers and the contributors what the committers and the contributors are saying to each other. There's a are saying to each other. There's a are saying to each other. There's a piece piece piece >> it's not on discord it's not in slack >> it's not on discord it's not in slack >> it's not on discord it's not in slack it's not on it's not on it's not on >> well there is a postgress slack. has >> well there is a postgress slack. has >> well there is a postgress slack. has 24,000 members, many of whom most of 24,000 members, many of whom most of 24,000 members, many of whom most of whom are users and who are asking, you

whom are users and who are asking, you whom are users and who are asking, you know, technical questions similar to on know, technical questions similar to on know, technical questions similar to on Stack Overflow where there's a lot of Stack Overflow where there's a lot of Stack Overflow where there's a lot of Q&A about the project. There is a Q&A about the project. There is a Q&A about the project. There is a Postgress hackers discord that was Postgress hackers discord that was Postgress hackers discord that was created last year to support a mentoring created last year to support a mentoring created last year to support a mentoring program that was instantiated last year program that was instantiated last year program that was instantiated last year for upandcoming contributors. for upandcoming contributors. for upandcoming contributors. But yes, the majority of conversation But yes, the majority of conversation But yes, the majority of conversation particularly amongst the hackers particularly amongst the hackers particularly amongst the hackers community and I don't mean hackers in community and I don't mean hackers in community and I don't mean hackers in terms of like these security we use the terms of like these security we use the terms of like these security we use the term hackers in Postgress to mean term hackers in Postgress to mean term hackers in Postgress to mean Postgress developers who work on the Postgress developers who work on the Postgress developers who work on the database database database >> as distinguished from Postgress >> as distinguished from Postgress >> as distinguished from Postgress developers who are like application developers who are like application developers who are like application developers who run on the database. So, developers who run on the database. So, developers who run on the database. So, you know, there's different levels or you know, there's different levels or you know, there's different levels or focus areas for developers. focus areas for developers. focus areas for developers. Anyway, it's there's Anyway, it's there's Anyway, it's there's >> but the the the decisions it sounds like >> but the the the decisions it sounds like >> but the the the decisions it sounds like make happen. The governance, the make happen. The governance, the make happen. The governance, the consensus driven community is happening consensus driven community is happening consensus driven community is happening really on those mailing lists. really on those mailing lists. really on those mailing lists. >> Yes. Yes. And and one other thing that >> Yes. Yes. And and one other thing that >> Yes. Yes. And and one other thing that distinguishes Postgress from other distinguishes Postgress from other distinguishes Postgress from other databases that might have a single databases that might have a single databases that might have a single company behind them is there is no top- company behind them is there is no top- company behind them is there is no top- down road map that gets created for each down road map that gets created for each down road map that gets created for each new release. for example, it's all very new release. for example, it's all very new release. for example, it's all very bottoms up and people work on what they bottoms up and people work on what they bottoms up and people work on what they think is important based on their think is important based on their think is important based on their interactions with users, based on what interactions with users, based on what interactions with users, based on what they're learning online and also based they're learning online and also based they're learning online and also based on what they can convince other people on what they can convince other people on what they can convince other people to collaborate with them on. There's to collaborate with them on. There's to collaborate with them on. There's this annual conference that happens in this annual conference that happens in this annual conference that happens in Canada every year. It's it's now called Canada every year. It's it's now called Canada every year. It's it's now called PGCOMD Dev and it'll happen again next

PGCOMD Dev and it'll happen again next PGCOMD Dev and it'll happen again next May. it'll be Vancouver this time. And a May. it'll be Vancouver this time. And a May. it'll be Vancouver this time. And a lot of the committers and contributors lot of the committers and contributors lot of the committers and contributors go to that event and that's where the go to that event and that's where the go to that event and that's where the collaboration starts for the next collaboration starts for the next collaboration starts for the next release. release. release. >> So if someone were to have an idea, they >> So if someone were to have an idea, they >> So if someone were to have an idea, they would go into the mailing list, they'd would go into the mailing list, they'd would go into the mailing list, they'd express their idea and the idea would express their idea and the idea would express their idea and the idea would make its way all the way to a major make its way all the way to a major make its way all the way to a major version over some period of time based version over some period of time based version over some period of time based entirely on the strength of that idea. entirely on the strength of that idea. entirely on the strength of that idea. They would not be able to push that They would not be able to push that They would not be able to push that through and get it all the way out if through and get it all the way out if through and get it all the way out if everyone was not excited about that new everyone was not excited about that new everyone was not excited about that new feature. Yeah, you basically you don't feature. Yeah, you basically you don't feature. Yeah, you basically you don't have to convince everyone to get have to convince everyone to get have to convince everyone to get something in, but you have to convince something in, but you have to convince something in, but you have to convince enough people and we there are 31 enough people and we there are 31 enough people and we there are 31 committers in the Postgress project committers in the Postgress project committers in the Postgress project today. That number will probably change today. That number will probably change today. That number will probably change again next spring when new new people again next spring when new new people again next spring when new new people are invited to become committers. But are invited to become committers. But are invited to become committers. But committers are people who have that committers are people who have that committers are people who have that commit bit who are actually in a lot of commit bit who are actually in a lot of commit bit who are actually in a lot of other open source projects they might be other open source projects they might be other open source projects they might be called maintainers. called maintainers. called maintainers. So certainly if you're authoring some So certainly if you're authoring some So certainly if you're authoring some new update to the code, you do have to new update to the code, you do have to new update to the code, you do have to find a committer who's willing to commit find a committer who's willing to commit find a committer who's willing to commit it. And you know that's a big commitment it. And you know that's a big commitment it. And you know that's a big commitment on their part. Sorry for the pun because on their part. Sorry for the pun because on their part. Sorry for the pun because you know once it's in the committer you know once it's in the committer you know once it's in the committer oftenimes has to be the one to deal with oftenimes has to be the one to deal with oftenimes has to be the one to deal with any possible reverts or updates or any possible reverts or updates or any possible reverts or updates or immediate fixes or or whatever. And you immediate fixes or or whatever. And you immediate fixes or or whatever. And you know often those aren't needed but know often those aren't needed but know often those aren't needed but sometimes they are. And so they're sometimes they are. And so they're sometimes they are. And so they're they're signing up to to be partnered they're signing up to to be partnered they're signing up to to be partnered with you um to maintain it moving with you um to maintain it moving with you um to maintain it moving forward.

forward. forward. >> That's pretty cool. And it must be >> That's pretty cool. And it must be >> That's pretty cool. And it must be interesting to manage the the desires of interesting to manage the the desires of interesting to manage the the desires of communities versus the desire of the communities versus the desire of the communities versus the desire of the companies that pay the salaries like companies that pay the salaries like companies that pay the salaries like you're a Postgress team member but you you're a Postgress team member but you you're a Postgress team member but you also work at Microsoft and there might also work at Microsoft and there might also work at Microsoft and there might be an Amazon person who like their boss be an Amazon person who like their boss be an Amazon person who like their boss might say hey go and try to get that might say hey go and try to get that might say hey go and try to get that into Postgress. they've still got to into Postgress. they've still got to into Postgress. they've still got to convince the community and otherwise convince the community and otherwise convince the community and otherwise it's an extension or it's an add-on and it's an extension or it's an add-on and it's an extension or it's an add-on and you would not want to destabilize the you would not want to destabilize the you would not want to destabilize the the the product and I and Postgress if I the the product and I and Postgress if I the the product and I and Postgress if I may has kind of a reputation for being may has kind of a reputation for being may has kind of a reputation for being somewhat conservative in adding new somewhat conservative in adding new somewhat conservative in adding new features. They're they're not going to features. They're they're not going to features. They're they're not going to add something if they don't think it's add something if they don't think it's add something if they don't think it's going to be helpful and and everyone's going to be helpful and and everyone's going to be helpful and and everyone's going to appreciate it. One of the going to appreciate it. One of the going to appreciate it. One of the exciting new things that has just been exciting new things that has just been exciting new things that has just been added to Postgress 18 um which might not added to Postgress 18 um which might not added to Postgress 18 um which might not sound new to you if you're coming from sound new to you if you're coming from sound new to you if you're coming from another another database or another another another database or another another another database or another project but asynchronous IO support for project but asynchronous IO support for project but asynchronous IO support for reads has just been added to Postgress reads has just been added to Postgress reads has just been added to Postgress 18 and that's been years in the making 18 and that's been years in the making 18 and that's been years in the making in fact uh I'm excited to be here on in fact uh I'm excited to be here on in fact uh I'm excited to be here on your podcast but I host a monthly your podcast but I host a monthly your podcast but I host a monthly podcast as well called talking Postgress podcast as well called talking Postgress podcast as well called talking Postgress little minor plug there and recently I little minor plug there and recently I little minor plug there and recently I had Andress Fry on as a guest had Andress Fry on as a guest had Andress Fry on as a guest Uh, and it was it was really cool. It Uh, and it was it was really cool. It Uh, and it was it was really cool. It wasn't about asynchronous IO, like wasn't about asynchronous IO, like wasn't about asynchronous IO, like here's how you use it or here are the here's how you use it or here are the here's how you use it or here are the capabilities that that new feature gives capabilities that that new feature gives capabilities that that new feature gives you, but it was instead um Andress, by you, but it was instead um Andress, by you, but it was instead um Andress, by the way, is a committer and a partner the way, is a committer and a partner the way, is a committer and a partner engineer who works at Microsoft, but engineer who works at Microsoft, but engineer who works at Microsoft, but he's also uh works on the open source he's also uh works on the open source he's also uh works on the open source project first and foremost and as member project first and foremost and as member project first and foremost and as member of the core team. and he was reflecting

of the core team. and he was reflecting of the core team. and he was reflecting on what went wrong and what went right on what went wrong and what went right on what went wrong and what went right with that project because it was a with that project because it was a with that project because it was a multiple it was a five-y year long multiple it was a five-y year long multiple it was a five-y year long project leading up to this point in project leading up to this point in project leading up to this point in Postgress 18 and Postgress 18 and Postgress 18 and >> five years >> five years >> five years >> yeah with you know peaks and valleys and >> yeah with you know peaks and valleys and >> yeah with you know peaks and valleys and ups and downs and and also like a number ups and downs and and also like a number ups and downs and and also like a number of contributions into the previous of contributions into the previous of contributions into the previous releases that planted the seeds so that releases that planted the seeds so that releases that planted the seeds so that this this could go live in Postgress 18. this this could go live in Postgress 18. this this could go live in Postgress 18. >> That's a great point. I don't think >> That's a great point. I don't think >> That's a great point. I don't think people realize that in order to do a big people realize that in order to do a big people realize that in order to do a big thing, you have to lay the groundwork. thing, you have to lay the groundwork. thing, you have to lay the groundwork. Like I know like we're on net 10 right Like I know like we're on net 10 right Like I know like we're on net 10 right now and there are things that were put now and there are things that were put now and there are things that were put in net 6 and 7 that are getting ready to in net 6 and 7 that are getting ready to in net 6 and 7 that are getting ready to support features coming in net 10. So support features coming in net 10. So support features coming in net 10. So his you know the team's master plan to his you know the team's master plan to his you know the team's master plan to get async 5 years ago and putting get async 5 years ago and putting get async 5 years ago and putting features in and making sure that they're features in and making sure that they're features in and making sure that they're stable and and getting them ready for stable and and getting them ready for stable and and getting them ready for postgress 18 I'm sure was a very long postgress 18 I'm sure was a very long postgress 18 I'm sure was a very long long process. Well, and that part of long process. Well, and that part of long process. Well, and that part of being an architect is one that I feel being an architect is one that I feel being an architect is one that I feel like nobody nobody teaches you when like nobody nobody teaches you when like nobody nobody teaches you when you're younger, right, when you're a you're younger, right, when you're a you're younger, right, when you're a junior engineer. But but it's a really junior engineer. But but it's a really junior engineer. But but it's a really important part to figure out how to important part to figure out how to important part to figure out how to carve things up and lay them out. And carve things up and lay them out. And carve things up and lay them out. And also, you can't you can't put things also, you can't you can't put things also, you can't you can't put things into a release that don't get used.

into a release that don't get used. into a release that don't get used. There has to be a user for those new There has to be a user for those new There has to be a user for those new capabilities. And so, yeah, it was very capabilities. And so, yeah, it was very capabilities. And so, yeah, it was very exciting. Um exciting. Um exciting. Um >> I have looked around to see if there was >> I have looked around to see if there was >> I have looked around to see if there was any drama because sometimes communities any drama because sometimes communities any drama because sometimes communities and open source communities have drama and open source communities have drama and open source communities have drama and the only real drama that I could and the only real drama that I could and the only real drama that I could find within Postgress was someone tried find within Postgress was someone tried find within Postgress was someone tried to trademark Postgress and the Postgress to trademark Postgress and the Postgress to trademark Postgress and the Postgress QL core team like pushed back on that QL core team like pushed back on that QL core team like pushed back on that and was like no you can't do that. That and was like no you can't do that. That and was like no you can't do that. That that was a sloppy and foolish thing to that was a sloppy and foolish thing to that was a sloppy and foolish thing to do. Did you do you remember that? That do. Did you do you remember that? That do. Did you do you remember that? That was a couple years ago. I do remember was a couple years ago. I do remember was a couple years ago. I do remember that and I probably know more about that that and I probably know more about that that and I probably know more about that than I should because about a year and a than I should because about a year and a than I should because about a year and a half ago I uh became a board member for half ago I uh became a board member for half ago I uh became a board member for this entity called PGCA Postgress this entity called PGCA Postgress this entity called PGCA Postgress Community Association and we we shepherd Community Association and we we shepherd Community Association and we we shepherd the trademarks for Postgress. So that's the trademarks for Postgress. So that's the trademarks for Postgress. So that's the names Postgress and PostgreSQL both the names Postgress and PostgreSQL both the names Postgress and PostgreSQL both of them both spellings um as well as of them both spellings um as well as of them both spellings um as well as Slonic um which is the elephant logo or Slonic um which is the elephant logo or Slonic um which is the elephant logo or icon if you will that is the you know icon if you will that is the you know icon if you will that is the you know visually visually visually communicates that this is Postgress. So, communicates that this is Postgress. So, communicates that this is Postgress. So, we we protect the trademarks and domain we we protect the trademarks and domain we we protect the trademarks and domain names for all of those things. And part names for all of those things. And part names for all of those things. And part of what I've been trying to do, and I of what I've been trying to do, and I of what I've been trying to do, and I did not plant this seed with Scott, just did not plant this seed with Scott, just did not plant this seed with Scott, just so you know, I don't even think he knew so you know, I don't even think he knew so you know, I don't even think he knew that I'm a board member.

that I'm a board member. that I'm a board member. >> I'm learning this now. I was just doing >> I'm learning this now. I was just doing >> I'm learning this now. I was just doing research. I've got about 48 tabs open research. I've got about 48 tabs open research. I've got about 48 tabs open right now. right now. right now. >> So, one of the things though that as a >> So, one of the things though that as a >> So, one of the things though that as a board member now that I try to do is board member now that I try to do is board member now that I try to do is raise people's awareness that there is a raise people's awareness that there is a raise people's awareness that there is a Postgress trademark. And so if you're Postgress trademark. And so if you're Postgress trademark. And so if you're about to name something, maybe you about to name something, maybe you about to name something, maybe you created some new service or feature, you created some new service or feature, you created some new service or feature, you want to use Postgress in the name, go want to use Postgress in the name, go want to use Postgress in the name, go read the trademark policy and make sure read the trademark policy and make sure read the trademark policy and make sure that what you're doing is in compliance that what you're doing is in compliance that what you're doing is in compliance with it. And if not, there's an address with it. And if not, there's an address with it. And if not, there's an address there. You can reach out to the board there. You can reach out to the board there. You can reach out to the board and ask questions because we do need to and ask questions because we do need to and ask questions because we do need to protect it. You don't want someone to go protect it. You don't want someone to go protect it. You don't want someone to go call something that isn't affiliated call something that isn't affiliated call something that isn't affiliated with a project at all and go call it with a project at all and go call it with a project at all and go call it Postgress and confuse the user Postgress and confuse the user Postgress and confuse the user community. So even though it's open community. So even though it's open community. So even though it's open source, it's not open trademark season, source, it's not open trademark season, source, it's not open trademark season, if that makes sense. if that makes sense. if that makes sense. >> Yeah, I think that's a tough one for >> Yeah, I think that's a tough one for >> Yeah, I think that's a tough one for people to understand that like you don't people to understand that like you don't people to understand that like you don't want to have anyone use the logo, anyone want to have anyone use the logo, anyone want to have anyone use the logo, anyone use the name. Uh we have the same issues use the name. Uh we have the same issues use the name. Uh we have the same issues with community conferences with.NET or with community conferences with.NET or with community conferences with.NET or with Microsoft. It's it's squishy with Microsoft. It's it's squishy with Microsoft. It's it's squishy because there's always some big company because there's always some big company because there's always some big company with money that wants to do the thing, with money that wants to do the thing, with money that wants to do the thing, but ultimately if it's an open source but ultimately if it's an open source but ultimately if it's an open source project, it has to be owned by the project, it has to be owned by the project, it has to be owned by the people and the trademarks and the and people and the trademarks and the and people and the trademarks and the and the the marks, the service marks and the the the marks, the service marks and the the the marks, the service marks and the icons need to be centrally centrally icons need to be centrally centrally icons need to be centrally centrally managed. But other than that drama, it managed. But other than that drama, it managed. But other than that drama, it seems like it uh has just continued to seems like it uh has just continued to seems like it uh has just continued to explode in popularity. People keep explode in popularity. People keep explode in popularity. People keep getting excited about it. It is both getting excited about it. It is both getting excited about it. It is both lightweight that you can run it in a lightweight that you can run it in a lightweight that you can run it in a container on your computer and it is container on your computer and it is container on your computer and it is enterprise ready and can be sharded and enterprise ready and can be sharded and enterprise ready and can be sharded and run in the cloud. You mentioned that run in the cloud. You mentioned that run in the cloud. You mentioned that Azure has a Postgress clouds scale

Azure has a Postgress clouds scale Azure has a Postgress clouds scale effectively. Is that literally just effectively. Is that literally just effectively. Is that literally just Postgress running in Azure or did Azure Postgress running in Azure or did Azure Postgress running in Azure or did Azure have to write certain herbs and spices have to write certain herbs and spices have to write certain herbs and spices and sprinkle it to make it Azure or and sprinkle it to make it Azure or and sprinkle it to make it Azure or cloud ready? cloud ready? cloud ready? >> Herbs and spices. So the Azure database >> Herbs and spices. So the Azure database >> Herbs and spices. So the Azure database for Postgress managed service is for Postgress managed service is for Postgress managed service is Postgress open-source plus all of the Postgress open-source plus all of the Postgress open-source plus all of the things that come with Azure that make it things that come with Azure that make it things that come with Azure that make it a manage service. So all of those a manage service. So all of those a manage service. So all of those additional features and capabilities additional features and capabilities additional features and capabilities that help you with backups, help you get that help you with backups, help you get that help you with backups, help you get high availability, help you monitor your high availability, help you monitor your high availability, help you monitor your system on Azure. So the Azure bits are system on Azure. So the Azure bits are system on Azure. So the Azure bits are not open source but the core Postgress not open source but the core Postgress not open source but the core Postgress that's part of that managed service is that's part of that managed service is that's part of that managed service is truly Postgress. And one of the things truly Postgress. And one of the things truly Postgress. And one of the things my boss was super excited about is that my boss was super excited about is that my boss was super excited about is that we've been trying on the Azure team to we've been trying on the Azure team to we've been trying on the Azure team to get better and better at supporting like get better and better at supporting like get better and better at supporting like the latest and greatest Postgress the latest and greatest Postgress the latest and greatest Postgress releases and they were the team was just releases and they were the team was just releases and they were the team was just super stoked to get Postgress 18 support super stoked to get Postgress 18 support super stoked to get Postgress 18 support out albeit in one region but you know out albeit in one region but you know out albeit in one region but you know the region support will roll out over the region support will roll out over the region support will roll out over time. multiple regions time. multiple regions time. multiple regions >> in preview on the day that Postgress 18 >> in preview on the day that Postgress 18 >> in preview on the day that Postgress 18 open sourced GA. So that was that was open sourced GA. So that was that was open sourced GA. So that was that was kind of exciting for our team because if kind of exciting for our team because if kind of exciting for our team because if you go back a couple releases that was you go back a couple releases that was you go back a couple releases that was not the case. So we just the Azure team not the case. So we just the Azure team not the case. So we just the Azure team just keeps getting better which is cool.

just keeps getting better which is cool. just keeps getting better which is cool. >> That is really challenging to get a day >> That is really challenging to get a day >> That is really challenging to get a day one release. You announce it and you say one release. You announce it and you say one release. You announce it and you say and you can have it live right now to be and you can have it live right now to be and you can have it live right now to be able to do that. the amount of able to do that. the amount of able to do that. the amount of coordination because I've seen the coordination because I've seen the coordination because I've seen the behind the scenes on projects like that behind the scenes on projects like that behind the scenes on projects like that is non-trivial and you really have to be is non-trivial and you really have to be is non-trivial and you really have to be embedded with you know you have to be embedded with you know you have to be embedded with you know you have to be really involved in the community to be really involved in the community to be really involved in the community to be watching those taking the builds and uh watching those taking the builds and uh watching those taking the builds and uh and managing all that speaking of the and managing all that speaking of the and managing all that speaking of the builds where does it build is this all builds where does it build is this all builds where does it build is this all in GitHub is this building in actions is in GitHub is this building in actions is in GitHub is this building in actions is it building on Postgress own build it building on Postgress own build it building on Postgress own build servers how do I where do the binaries servers how do I where do the binaries servers how do I where do the binaries come from because it's probably not on come from because it's probably not on come from because it's probably not on CLA's laptop CLA's laptop CLA's laptop >> no it's not >> no it's not >> no it's not okay so one of the things that the okay so one of the things that the okay so one of the things that the Postgress project, the open source Postgress project, the open source Postgress project, the open source project is famous for is not wanting to project is famous for is not wanting to project is famous for is not wanting to depend on any commercial vendors. So for depend on any commercial vendors. So for depend on any commercial vendors. So for example, the source code for Postgress example, the source code for Postgress example, the source code for Postgress is not on GitHub. Um there's a mirror is not on GitHub. Um there's a mirror is not on GitHub. Um there's a mirror that's available on GitHub that's kept that's available on GitHub that's kept that's available on GitHub that's kept up to date, but it runs using git um on up to date, but it runs using git um on up to date, but it runs using git um on servers that are maintained by a CIS servers that are maintained by a CIS servers that are maintained by a CIS admin team that is part of the Postgress admin team that is part of the Postgress admin team that is part of the Postgress open source project and that's about open source project and that's about open source project and that's about seven or eight people I believe and they seven or eight people I believe and they seven or eight people I believe and they don't just manage the get servers, they don't just manage the get servers, they don't just manage the get servers, they also manage the servers that host the also manage the servers that host the also manage the servers that host the mailing lists, they also have to deal mailing lists, they also have to deal mailing lists, they also have to deal with hosting email as well because all with hosting email as well because all with hosting email as well because all of the Postgress committers, they all of the Postgress committers, they all of the Postgress committers, they all have an app posgress qul.org email have an app posgress qul.org email have an app posgress qul.org email address. For example, there are there address. For example, there are there address. For example, there are there are commercial sponsors for all of these are commercial sponsors for all of these are commercial sponsors for all of these servers that people run like from Kenova servers that people run like from Kenova servers that people run like from Kenova and Rackspace and AWS and um I'm

and Rackspace and AWS and um I'm and Rackspace and AWS and um I'm probably forgetting somebody else. So, probably forgetting somebody else. So, probably forgetting somebody else. So, that's helpful. But there are people who that's helpful. But there are people who that's helpful. But there are people who carry pagers that maintain all of these carry pagers that maintain all of these carry pagers that maintain all of these servers that the project runs on. In servers that the project runs on. In servers that the project runs on. In terms of your question about build, terms of your question about build, terms of your question about build, Postgress has a build farm and there's a Postgress has a build farm and there's a Postgress has a build farm and there's a committer named Andrew Dunston who is committer named Andrew Dunston who is committer named Andrew Dunston who is like the face of the build farm and all like the face of the build farm and all like the face of the build farm and all of the servers on the build farm are of the servers on the build farm are of the servers on the build farm are called animals because it's a farm I called animals because it's a farm I called animals because it's a farm I guess and there are over 200 different guess and there are over 200 different guess and there are over 200 different animals in the build farm and I gave a animals in the build farm and I gave a animals in the build farm and I gave a talk last week at PG Confu that was talk last week at PG Confu that was talk last week at PG Confu that was about all of the contributions or as about all of the contributions or as about all of the contributions or as many as I could track down with a many as I could track down with a many as I could track down with a teammate of mine Daniel Gustoson who's teammate of mine Daniel Gustoson who's teammate of mine Daniel Gustoson who's also a committer. also a committer. also a committer. that went into Postgress 18. And so I that went into Postgress 18. And so I that went into Postgress 18. And so I happen to have a little factoid which is happen to have a little factoid which is happen to have a little factoid which is that um over the course of the that um over the course of the that um over the course of the development of Postgress 18 which is development of Postgress 18 which is development of Postgress 18 which is like a 15-monthlong period start to like a 15-monthlong period start to like a 15-monthlong period start to finish um over 229 finish um over 229 finish um over 229 million seconds worth of time was spent million seconds worth of time was spent million seconds worth of time was spent building variations of Postgress 18 building variations of Postgress 18 building variations of Postgress 18 release. I don't know if that's release. I don't know if that's release. I don't know if that's interesting.

interesting. interesting. >> That is amazing. Another another factory >> That is amazing. Another another factory >> That is amazing. Another another factory that I was was shocked about is how many that I was was shocked about is how many that I was was shocked about is how many builds there are. There's dozens, right? builds there are. There's dozens, right? builds there are. There's dozens, right? There's Windows installers, there's Mac There's Windows installers, there's Mac There's Windows installers, there's Mac installers, there's Docker images, installers, there's Docker images, installers, there's Docker images, there's ARM builds for your Raspberry there's ARM builds for your Raspberry there's ARM builds for your Raspberry Pi. There's, you know, every Linux Pi. There's, you know, every Linux Pi. There's, you know, every Linux distribution can ship their own version distribution can ship their own version distribution can ship their own version of it. So, there's one canonical of it. So, there's one canonical of it. So, there's one canonical Postgress for you, but the ecosystem is Postgress for you, but the ecosystem is Postgress for you, but the ecosystem is making literally dozens of builds for making literally dozens of builds for making literally dozens of builds for different platforms, and it works different platforms, and it works different platforms, and it works everywhere, which is crazy. And there everywhere, which is crazy. And there everywhere, which is crazy. And there are there are people who are seriously are there are people who are seriously are there are people who are seriously dedicated to creating the packages dedicated to creating the packages dedicated to creating the packages across all of these operating systems across all of these operating systems across all of these operating systems both on the developer side like I know both on the developer side like I know both on the developer side like I know Thomas Monroe on our team is involved in Thomas Monroe on our team is involved in Thomas Monroe on our team is involved in a lot of the operating system support a lot of the operating system support a lot of the operating system support but on the packaging side there's an but on the packaging side there's an but on the packaging side there's an engineer named Kristoff Berg and an engineer named Kristoff Berg and an engineer named Kristoff Berg and an engineer named Dev Rim Gundus neither of engineer named Dev Rim Gundus neither of engineer named Dev Rim Gundus neither of whom work for Microsoft but they take whom work for Microsoft but they take whom work for Microsoft but they take packaging of Postgress seriously packaging of Postgress seriously packaging of Postgress seriously you know Devra manages RPM and Kristoff you know Devra manages RPM and Kristoff you know Devra manages RPM and Kristoff is more on the Debbie side of things and is more on the Debbie side of things and is more on the Debbie side of things and yeah there's a lot of a lot of attention yeah there's a lot of a lot of attention yeah there's a lot of a lot of attention to detail there and and it's not just to detail there and and it's not just to detail there and and it's not just core Postgress either all those core Postgress either all those core Postgress either all those extensions that I talked about earlier extensions that I talked about earlier extensions that I talked about earlier those all have to get built and released those all have to get built and released those all have to get built and released with the new the new versions with the new the new versions with the new the new versions >> yeah there's it's it's a global global >> yeah there's it's it's a global global >> yeah there's it's it's a global global effort and effort and effort and >> I did not expect when I joined Situs in >> I did not expect when I joined Situs in >> I did not expect when I joined Situs in 2017 2017 2017 I just had no idea how Postgress would I just had no idea how Postgress would I just had no idea how Postgress would change my change my change my So uh I love what I do on this project

So uh I love what I do on this project So uh I love what I do on this project and uh it's really fun. and uh it's really fun. and uh it's really fun. >> So you joined Situs and Situs got >> So you joined Situs and Situs got >> So you joined Situs and Situs got acquired and that's how you made your acquired and that's how you made your acquired and that's how you made your way to Microsoft. way to Microsoft. way to Microsoft. >> Yeah. Yeah. Situs got acquired almost >> Yeah. Yeah. Situs got acquired almost >> Yeah. Yeah. Situs got acquired almost two years about two years after I joined two years about two years after I joined two years about two years after I joined the company and and then after I'd been the company and and then after I'd been the company and and then after I'd been at Microsoft for a couple years my scope at Microsoft for a couple years my scope at Microsoft for a couple years my scope broadened to focus even more on broadened to focus even more on broadened to focus even more on Postgress core. when it got acquired, Postgress core. when it got acquired, Postgress core. when it got acquired, were you like, "Here we go. Big giant were you like, "Here we go. Big giant were you like, "Here we go. Big giant company." company." company." >> Okay, so this is really interesting. I >> Okay, so this is really interesting. I >> Okay, so this is really interesting. I had several people reach out to me, you had several people reach out to me, you had several people reach out to me, you know, text, phone call, whatever. know, text, phone call, whatever. know, text, phone call, whatever. Probably more text these days than phone Probably more text these days than phone Probably more text these days than phone call, and say, "You know what? 5 years call, and say, "You know what? 5 years call, and say, "You know what? 5 years ago, 10 years ago, I would have said, ago, 10 years ago, I would have said, ago, 10 years ago, I would have said, "Oh, Claire, I'm so sorry. How can I "Oh, Claire, I'm so sorry. How can I "Oh, Claire, I'm so sorry. How can I help you find a new job?" And they said, help you find a new job?" And they said, help you find a new job?" And they said, "But you know what? Right now, "But you know what? Right now, "But you know what? Right now, congratulations. This is really cool." congratulations. This is really cool." congratulations. This is really cool." So, it it was interesting to me as So, it it was interesting to me as So, it it was interesting to me as someone who'd been in the industry for someone who'd been in the industry for someone who'd been in the industry for longer than I care to admit that the longer than I care to admit that the longer than I care to admit that the perception of Microsoft had changed so perception of Microsoft had changed so perception of Microsoft had changed so much in the 10 years leading up to our much in the 10 years leading up to our much in the 10 years leading up to our acquisition in 2019. You've been at acquisition in 2019. You've been at acquisition in 2019. You've been at Microsoft a long time, so you must have Microsoft a long time, so you must have Microsoft a long time, so you must have experienced that.

experienced that. experienced that. >> Yeah, there's the like I've been here >> Yeah, there's the like I've been here >> Yeah, there's the like I've been here now like 17 18 years, which I think is now like 17 18 years, which I think is now like 17 18 years, which I think is both a long time, but it's kind of like both a long time, but it's kind of like both a long time, but it's kind of like slightly more than half of my career. So slightly more than half of my career. So slightly more than half of my career. So I still remember what it was like on the I still remember what it was like on the I still remember what it was like on the outside and I try to make sure I outside and I try to make sure I outside and I try to make sure I remember remember remember >> but there was definitely like Borg evil >> but there was definitely like Borg evil >> but there was definitely like Borg evil empire and we we we kind of turned empire and we we we kind of turned empire and we we we kind of turned things around with the with the work things around with the with the work things around with the with the work that we've done in open source. We just that we've done in open source. We just that we've done in open source. We just need to make sure that we maintain that need to make sure that we maintain that need to make sure that we maintain that uh that level of quality and and don't uh that level of quality and and don't uh that level of quality and and don't slip back into uh naughty ways that we slip back into uh naughty ways that we slip back into uh naughty ways that we may have been known for in the early may have been known for in the early may have been known for in the early 90s. 90s. 90s. >> Yeah. For me, what I what I love is that >> Yeah. For me, what I what I love is that >> Yeah. For me, what I what I love is that my leadership is, you know, my boss and my leadership is, you know, my boss and my leadership is, you know, my boss and the engineering VP who's this peer, the engineering VP who's this peer, the engineering VP who's this peer, they're both just super supportive of they're both just super supportive of they're both just super supportive of our Postgress open source team and what our Postgress open source team and what our Postgress open source team and what what we do. And you said something what we do. And you said something what we do. And you said something interesting earlier. You said when interesting earlier. You said when interesting earlier. You said when there's a, you know, a commercial cloud there's a, you know, a commercial cloud there's a, you know, a commercial cloud company that wants its contributors to company that wants its contributors to company that wants its contributors to go work on X, it's it's not it's not go work on X, it's it's not it's not go work on X, it's it's not it's not really like that, right? It it really like that, right? It it really like that, right? It it first of all even if somebody as an first of all even if somebody as an first of all even if somebody as an engineering leader wanted their engineering leader wanted their engineering leader wanted their Postgress open source contributors to go Postgress open source contributors to go Postgress open source contributors to go do something it's not like they do something it's not like they do something it's not like they necessarily can right they have to lobby necessarily can right they have to lobby necessarily can right they have to lobby for support they have to get support for support they have to get support for support they have to get support across company lines and and across across company lines and and across across company lines and and across countries. So yes, it is true that there countries. So yes, it is true that there countries. So yes, it is true that there are quite a number of contributors who are quite a number of contributors who are quite a number of contributors who focus on the needs of hyperscalers, but focus on the needs of hyperscalers, but focus on the needs of hyperscalers, but that's because people need that, right?

that's because people need that, right? that's because people need that, right? And and it's more about what the end And and it's more about what the end And and it's more about what the end users of Postgress need than anything users of Postgress need than anything users of Postgress need than anything else. That's my belief. else. That's my belief. else. That's my belief. >> That's great. And I think that is that >> That's great. And I think that is that >> That's great. And I think that is that is a good belief to have and I think is a good belief to have and I think is a good belief to have and I think that we do see it. I literally put that we do see it. I literally put that we do see it. I literally put Postgress on my Raspberry Pi yesterday Postgress on my Raspberry Pi yesterday Postgress on my Raspberry Pi yesterday and it was like pseudoapp install and it was like pseudoapp install and it was like pseudoapp install Postgress SQL. It was like that easy. Postgress SQL. It was like that easy. Postgress SQL. It was like that easy. And I couldn't believe that this giant And I couldn't believe that this giant And I couldn't believe that this giant hyperscaler level database that runs hyperscaler level database that runs hyperscaler level database that runs half the world is now running on like a half the world is now running on like a half the world is now running on like a pocket-sized ARM device and can run pocket-sized ARM device and can run pocket-sized ARM device and can run everywhere in between. And folks can go everywhere in between. And folks can go everywhere in between. And folks can go and learn more about this at and learn more about this at and learn more about this at postgressql.org postgressql.org postgressql.org possl.org. You can see right there on the homepage You can see right there on the homepage Postgress SQL 18 released. You can learn Postgress SQL 18 released. You can learn Postgress SQL 18 released. You can learn more about the community and some of the more about the community and some of the more about the community and some of the great conferences and user groups that great conferences and user groups that great conferences and user groups that are going on. And thank you so much are going on. And thank you so much are going on. And thank you so much Claire Jordano for hanging out with me Claire Jordano for hanging out with me Claire Jordano for hanging out with me today. today. today. >> Thank you Scott for having me. This has >> Thank you Scott for having me. This has >> Thank you Scott for having me. This has been fun. been fun. been fun. >> This has been another episode of Hansel >> This has been another episode of Hansel >> This has been another episode of Hansel Minutes and we'll see you again next Minutes and we'll see you again next Minutes and we'll see you again next week.