Big Tech from the Inside with Dare Obasanjo

hi I'm Scott Hanselman this is another hi I'm Scott Hanselman this is another episode of Hansel minut today I'm episode of Hansel minut today I'm episode of Hansel minut today I'm chatting with DAR obasanjo he's a lead chatting with DAR obasanjo he's a lead chatting with DAR obasanjo he's a lead product manager at meta used to work at product manager at meta used to work at product manager at meta used to work at Microsoft and he has been opining on the Microsoft and he has been opining on the Microsoft and he has been opining on the internet as Carnage for life for many internet as Carnage for life for many internet as Carnage for life for many many years and we worked together gosh I many years and we worked together gosh I many years and we worked together gosh I want to say 20 years ago when you were want to say 20 years ago when you were want to say 20 years ago when you were doing system.xml I still think XML could doing system.xml I still think XML could doing system.xml I still think XML could happen there's still time for us to make happen there's still time for us to make happen there's still time for us to make it happen right it happened for a it happen right it happened for a it happen right it happened for a while there was a moment there where I while there was a moment there where I while there was a moment there where I was deep in it but now the kids they was deep in it but now the kids they was deep in it but now the kids they switched to curly braces and some of switched to curly braces and some of switched to curly braces and some of them just use whites space but I still them just use whites space but I still them just use whites space but I still think that angle brackets can have their think that angle brackets can have their think that angle brackets can have their day it was all day it was all day it was all you but I wanted to have you on the show you but I wanted to have you on the show you but I wanted to have you on the show because I have followed you you know because I have followed you you know because I have followed you you know certainly when we work together but also certainly when we work together but also certainly when we work together but also as you move around from Twitter to as you move around from Twitter to as you move around from Twitter to threads to threads to threads to wherever your voice as kind of an of an wherever your voice as kind of an of an wherever your voice as kind of an of an analyst you're kind of like my news analyst you're kind of like my news analyst you're kind of like my news source for the bay I don't I used to source for the bay I don't I used to source for the bay I don't I used to listen to some people that work for uh listen to some people that work for uh listen to some people that work for uh you know VCS but you have a very you know VCS but you have a very you know VCS but you have a very unbiased analyst's voice I'm surprised unbiased analyst's voice I'm surprised unbiased analyst's voice I'm surprised you haven't started a newsletter you you haven't started a newsletter you you haven't started a newsletter you just kind of naturally spout your just kind of naturally spout your just kind of naturally spout your opinions on the on the net why have you opinions on the on the net why have you opinions on the on the net why have you done that so long for 20 plus years You' done that so long for 20 plus years You' done that so long for 20 plus years You' you've been that voice it seems almost you've been that voice it seems almost you've been that voice it seems almost artificial to say now since te but I I artificial to say now since te but I I artificial to say now since te but I I just kind of left Tech I'm always sort just kind of left Tech I'm always sort just kind of left Tech I'm always sort of loved like the technology thinking of loved like the technology thinking of loved like the technology thinking about technology reading about about technology reading about about technology reading about technology I've always had opinions as technology I've always had opinions as technology I've always had opinions as well and so I remember blogging when well and so I remember blogging when well and so I remember blogging when blogging first became big way back in blogging first became big way back in blogging first became big way back in the day and being like one of the first

the day and being like one of the first the day and being like one of the first few people in Microsoft used to blog and few people in Microsoft used to blog and few people in Microsoft used to blog and where we had like a get together like a where we had like a get together like a where we had like a get together like a handful of us dbx and a few other people handful of us dbx and a few other people handful of us dbx and a few other people were like yeah we're like the six or were like yeah we're like the six or were like yeah we're like the six or seven people who blog on seven people who blog on seven people who blog on Microsoft and I loved hearing and Microsoft and I loved hearing and Microsoft and I loved hearing and learning about technology learning about technology learning about technology and I love just sharing what I learned and I love just sharing what I learned and I love just sharing what I learned and I kind I figured out like I guess and I kind I figured out like I guess and I kind I figured out like I guess way early on that it's easier to way early on that it's easier to way early on that it's easier to remember a thing and understand it if remember a thing and understand it if remember a thing and understand it if you explain it to someone else it's sort you explain it to someone else it's sort you explain it to someone else it's sort of a memory trick and an understanding of a memory trick and an understanding of a memory trick and an understanding trick in general like you don't really trick in general like you don't really trick in general like you don't really understand it unless you teach someone understand it unless you teach someone understand it unless you teach someone so I just kind of got very used to well so I just kind of got very used to well so I just kind of got very used to well I like this topic if I can explain it I like this topic if I can explain it I like this topic if I can explain it like reduce it down to its elements that like reduce it down to its elements that like reduce it down to its elements that means I understood the topic means I means I understood the topic means I means I understood the topic means I understood the story means I understood understood the story means I understood understood the story means I understood the article it means I understood the the article it means I understood the the article it means I understood the essay and so I kind of just got into essay and so I kind of just got into essay and so I kind of just got into that habit way back in when Google that habit way back in when Google that habit way back in when Google announced did drop a paper on map Ru or announced did drop a paper on map Ru or announced did drop a paper on map Ru or big query and I'd read it and I'd just big query and I'd read it and I'd just big query and I'd read it and I'd just do a Blog that that way I know I do a Blog that that way I know I do a Blog that that way I know I understand it and then over time I I understand it and then over time I I understand it and then over time I I kind got kind of more senior in my kind got kind of more senior in my kind got kind of more senior in my career it was helpful to just know what career it was helpful to just know what career it was helpful to just know what was going on in the in in the industry was going on in the in in the industry was going on in the in in the industry uh Trend wise starting a technology went uh Trend wise starting a technology went uh Trend wise starting a technology went more and more towards like I think more and more towards like I think more and more towards like I think strategy like business Strat stry strategy like business Strat stry strategy like business Strat stry corporate strategy and so I started like corporate strategy and so I started like corporate strategy and so I started like just reading a bunch of like different just reading a bunch of like different just reading a bunch of like different sites and I mean tech mean the sign I sites and I mean tech mean the sign I sites and I mean tech mean the sign I probably used the most as my anchor but probably used the most as my anchor but probably used the most as my anchor but I read like Tech meme uh Reddit I read like Tech meme uh Reddit I read like Tech meme uh Reddit technology right news Hacker News stuff technology right news Hacker News stuff technology right news Hacker News stuff like that Tech crunch information yeah

like that Tech crunch information yeah like that Tech crunch information yeah like and I see a thing and I'm like oh like and I see a thing and I'm like oh like and I see a thing and I'm like oh this why why are VC's uh thinking about this why why are VC's uh thinking about this why why are VC's uh thinking about like conly looking for the next big like conly looking for the next big like conly looking for the next big platform why are people so incentivized platform why are people so incentivized platform why are people so incentivized to talk about crypto why what the lives to talk about crypto why what the lives to talk about crypto why what the lives gener AI how is it going to change my gener AI how is it going to change my gener AI how is it going to change my space my job or how is it going to space my job or how is it going to space my job or how is it going to change S my industry and it's just change S my industry and it's just change S my industry and it's just interesting to read what different interesting to read what different interesting to read what different pockets of Industry are doing and pockets of Industry are doing and pockets of Industry are doing and understanding about technology and it's understanding about technology and it's understanding about technology and it's also helpful for me to go like okay if I also helpful for me to go like okay if I also helpful for me to go like okay if I can synthesize this into 280 characters can synthesize this into 280 characters can synthesize this into 280 characters 140 characters whatever it means I got 140 characters whatever it means I got 140 characters whatever it means I got the essence of the story or now that the essence of the story or now that the essence of the story or now that I've already written it down I might as I've already written it down I might as I've already written it down I might as well to share it I a long time ago well to share it I a long time ago well to share it I a long time ago saying you know in answering an email saying you know in answering an email saying you know in answering an email all the time all the time all the time just write it I think it was you yeah just write it I think it was you yeah just write it I think it was you yeah that was me yeah your words are wasted I that was me yeah your words are wasted I that was me yeah your words are wasted I don't want people to like I'm not going don't want people to like I'm not going don't want people to like I'm not going to give you the keystrokes I'll put them to give you the keystrokes I'll put them to give you the keystrokes I'll put them on my blog and then I'll email you the on my blog and then I'll email you the on my blog and then I'll email you the link yeah and so and so it was just like link yeah and so and so it was just like link yeah and so and so it was just like that like you know I got L thoughts on that like you know I got L thoughts on that like you know I got L thoughts on what's going on now with layouts like what's going on now with layouts like what's going on now with layouts like you know like how to think about your you know like how to think about your you know like how to think about your job I Mentor people and it's just easier job I Mentor people and it's just easier job I Mentor people and it's just easier for me to go hey I wrote it once here's for me to go hey I wrote it once here's for me to go hey I wrote it once here's how to think about your manager here's I how to think about your manager here's I how to think about your manager here's I think about you know weighing roles think about you know weighing roles think about you know weighing roles here's I think about strategy think here's I think about strategy think here's I think about strategy think about tactics I've written it before about tactics I've written it before about tactics I've written it before just as supposed to me you know like just as supposed to me you know like just as supposed to me you know like doing the link and saying it's just an doing the link and saying it's just an doing the link and saying it's just an easy way to easy way to easy way to share so here's more of a strategy share so here's more of a strategy share so here's more of a strategy question you you know you're highly question you you know you're highly question you you know you're highly technical you back in the day you wrote technical you back in the day you wrote technical you back in the day you wrote code and hard code you are now you know code and hard code you are now you know code and hard code you are now you know more of a manager you left Microsoft as more of a manager you left Microsoft as more of a manager you left Microsoft as a partner you're highly placed at meta

a partner you're highly placed at meta a partner you're highly placed at meta but you talk like an MBA are you like a but you talk like an MBA are you like a but you talk like an MBA are you like a person who kind of like has an MBA in person who kind of like has an MBA in person who kind of like has an MBA in your head because you really have an NBA your head because you really have an NBA your head because you really have an NBA mind and when I looked at your LinkedIn mind and when I looked at your LinkedIn mind and when I looked at your LinkedIn I see your computer science degree but I I see your computer science degree but I I see your computer science degree but I was surprised that you didn't have an was surprised that you didn't have an was surprised that you didn't have an NBA because you seem to really have a NBA because you seem to really have a NBA because you seem to really have a foot that's deeply rooted in being foot that's deeply rooted in being foot that's deeply rooted in being highly technical but very much a highly technical but very much a highly technical but very much a business head is that natural or do you business head is that natural or do you business head is that natural or do you think you might get an NBA at some point think you might get an NBA at some point think you might get an NBA at some point I guess I don't say it's natural because I guess I don't say it's natural because I guess I don't say it's natural because it's odd to say like you're naturally it's odd to say like you're naturally it's odd to say like you're naturally into like business strategy like some into like business strategy like some into like business strategy like some sort of nerd but I guess it seems to be sort of nerd but I guess it seems to be sort of nerd but I guess it seems to be your thing though I mean you definitely your thing though I mean you definitely your thing though I mean you definitely dig it but I def I I've always sort of dig it but I def I I've always sort of dig it but I def I I've always sort of thought of the idea of the long-term thought of the idea of the long-term thought of the idea of the long-term impacts of what you impacts of what you impacts of what you do separating out intent and impact so do separating out intent and impact so do separating out intent and impact so like hey you meant to do this thing but like hey you meant to do this thing but like hey you meant to do this thing but this is actually what this leads to and this is actually what this leads to and this is actually what this leads to and then the other thing that I like I then the other thing that I like I then the other thing that I like I learned over time is well it's sort of learned over time is well it's sort of learned over time is well it's sort of empathy understanding how people respond empathy understanding how people respond empathy understanding how people respond and one of the things I learned is that and one of the things I learned is that and one of the things I learned is that a lot of people don't have empathy which a lot of people don't have empathy which a lot of people don't have empathy which means like a lot of it's hard for a lot means like a lot of it's hard for a lot means like a lot of it's hard for a lot of people like Building Products or of people like Building Products or of people like Building Products or thinking about what they're going to do thinking about what they're going to do thinking about what they're going to do like think about this other entity the like think about this other entity the like think about this other entity the equation is a person who also is equation is a person who also is equation is a person who also is optimizing for their needs and their so optimizing for their needs and their so optimizing for their needs and their so I learned over time like whether it's I learned over time like whether it's I learned over time like whether it's like building a feature partnering with like building a feature partnering with like building a feature partnering with someone you know like one of your pro someone you know like one of your pro someone you know like one of your pro peer that you're programming with peer that you're programming with peer that you're programming with whether it's working with another team whether it's working with another team whether it's working with another team whether it's working another company whether it's working another company whether it's working another company whether it's business stry there's whether it's business stry there's whether it's business stry there's always there's often a component of just

always there's often a component of just always there's often a component of just not understanding and thinking about the not understanding and thinking about the not understanding and thinking about the other entities as people who also are other entities as people who also are other entities as people who also are trying to optimize for their own needs trying to optimize for their own needs trying to optimize for their own needs that's Game Theory isn't it yeah yes that's Game Theory isn't it yeah yes that's Game Theory isn't it yeah yes definitely a bit of Game Theory there definitely a bit of Game Theory there definitely a bit of Game Theory there and and for me that's part of the and and for me that's part of the and and for me that's part of the difference in the magic of being in difference in the magic of being in difference in the magic of being in product management versus by versus product management versus by versus product management versus by versus being an engineer because in product being an engineer because in product being an engineer because in product management you know like I'm con management you know like I'm con management you know like I'm con constantly thinking these Engineers like constantly thinking these Engineers like constantly thinking these Engineers like what are they all optimizing for what's what are they all optimizing for what's what are they all optimizing for what's your design team optimizing for what's your design team optimizing for what's your design team optimizing for what's your P your marketing team optimizing your P your marketing team optimizing your P your marketing team optimizing for what is the product organization for what is the product organization for what is the product organization optimizing for then it's like a puzzle optimizing for then it's like a puzzle optimizing for then it's like a puzzle of how can you maximize as far as many of how can you maximize as far as many of how can you maximize as far as many people as possible and then prioritizing people as possible and then prioritizing people as possible and then prioritizing the hierarchy of what the customers the hierarchy of what the customers the hierarchy of what the customers goals are what the business's goals are goals are what the business's goals are goals are what the business's goals are and then like the individual team's and then like the individual team's and then like the individual team's goals so it's you know it's kind of like goals so it's you know it's kind of like goals so it's you know it's kind of like programming was fun but it's like programming was fun but it's like programming was fun but it's like organizational programming so I kind of organizational programming so I kind of organizational programming so I kind of like that and so that's kind of why I like that and so that's kind of why I like that and so that's kind of why I like product man and then sort of like like product man and then sort of like like product man and then sort of like second news is sort of similar like the second news is sort of similar like the second news is sort of similar like the streaming Studios and when the strikes streaming Studios and when the strikes streaming Studios and when the strikes were happening and I was like okay we were happening and I was like okay we were happening and I was like okay we already know the streamers are already know the streamers are already know the streamers are unprofitable and now the writers and the unprofitable and now the writers and the unprofitable and now the writers and the actors want more money when you put actors want more money when you put actors want more money when you put those together that means the studios those together that means the studios those together that means the studios are now going to be station where are now going to be station where are now going to be station where they're losing more and more money and they're losing more and more money and they're losing more and more money and they want ask to pay out eventually they want ask to pay out eventually they want ask to pay out eventually folks it's it's already beginning to folks it's it's already beginning to folks it's it's already beginning to look like they're Tri like they're look like they're Tri like they're look like they're Tri like they're losing too many subscribers so what's losing too many subscribers so what's losing too many subscribers so what's going to happen after that some going to happen after that some going to happen after that some streamers are probably going to give up streamers are probably going to give up streamers are probably going to give up some streamers are going to realize like

some streamers are going to realize like some streamers are going to realize like peacock and peacock and peacock and NBC W instead of we have the office and NBC W instead of we have the office and NBC W instead of we have the office and we make money from the office we now we make money from the office we now we make money from the office we now keep it and we're not give you can't keep it and we're not give you can't keep it and we're not give you can't watch anywhere else but now we need to watch anywhere else but now we need to watch anywhere else but now we need to make as much money from people make as much money from people make as much money from people subscribing to Peacock as we would just subscribing to Peacock as we would just subscribing to Peacock as we would just sitting on do like liing the office and sitting on do like liing the office and sitting on do like liing the office and so you and then you realize you're gonna so you and then you realize you're gonna so you and then you realize you're gonna have to change your business model and have to change your business model and have to change your business model and all of that comes from just two things all of that comes from just two things all of that comes from just two things you know starting from Reading know a you know starting from Reading know a you know starting from Reading know a lot of stream was unprofitable the lot of stream was unprofitable the lot of stream was unprofitable the actors and writers want more money or a actors and writers want more money or a actors and writers want more money or a lot more money natively for what they lot more money natively for what they lot more money natively for what they were getting I feel like that sort of were getting I feel like that sort of were getting I feel like that sort of thinking through I guess what you call thinking through I guess what you call thinking through I guess what you call the game theory is fun like like I just the game theory is fun like like I just the game theory is fun like like I just I just like it and I also like getting I just like it and I also like getting I just like it and I also like getting feedback on my ideas as well I try to be feedback on my ideas as well I try to be feedback on my ideas as well I try to be a person with um strong ideas loosely a person with um strong ideas loosely a person with um strong ideas loosely held so I try to think like okay so held so I try to think like okay so held so I try to think like okay so here's where I think my mental model of here's where I think my mental model of here's where I think my mental model of it is and then people give feedback and it is and then people give feedback and it is and then people give feedback and I go okay you know what this part of the I go okay you know what this part of the I go okay you know what this part of the model doesn't work wrong like so sharing model doesn't work wrong like so sharing model doesn't work wrong like so sharing also gives you know me the opportunity also gives you know me the opportunity also gives you know me the opportunity to learn from like other people Shar to learn from like other people Shar to learn from like other people Shar ideas and kind of like just sharing the ideas and kind of like just sharing the ideas and kind of like just sharing the idea as like the feedback rolls in yeah idea as like the feedback rolls in yeah idea as like the feedback rolls in yeah so it's kind of like learning in public so it's kind of like learning in public so it's kind of like learning in public do you think that that level of empathy do you think that that level of empathy do you think that that level of empathy and systems thinking right thinking and systems thinking right thinking and systems thinking right thinking about like within Game Theory there's about like within Game Theory there's about like within Game Theory there's the idea that all the actors are the idea that all the actors are the idea that all the actors are rational and they all have different rational and they all have different rational and they all have different things that they want to accomplish and things that they want to accomplish and things that they want to accomplish and they're all fighting effectively against they're all fighting effectively against they're all fighting effectively against each other to meet their goal that is

each other to meet their goal that is each other to meet their goal that is what I tell to my mentees is that Tech what I tell to my mentees is that Tech what I tell to my mentees is that Tech is a lot squishier than they realize is a lot squishier than they realize is a lot squishier than they realize they thought they were hired to write they thought they were hired to write they thought they were hired to write code and they wonder why some people are code and they wonder why some people are code and they wonder why some people are successful less than and they're not successful less than and they're not successful less than and they're not successful it's less about the code that successful it's less about the code that successful it's less about the code that you're pumping out and it's more about you're pumping out and it's more about you're pumping out and it's more about to your point impact the older you get to your point impact the older you get to your point impact the older you get the more senior you get the more you the more senior you get the more you the more senior you get the more you realize that it is understanding what realize that it is understanding what realize that it is understanding what the other person and the other the other person and the other the other person and the other department needs from you and making department needs from you and making department needs from you and making literally win-win situations like what's literally win-win situations like what's literally win-win situations like what's the vend diagram where what you want and the vend diagram where what you want and the vend diagram where what you want and what they want touch each other and what they want touch each other and what they want touch each other and getting all that interactions and a lot getting all that interactions and a lot getting all that interactions and a lot of younger and earlier in career people of younger and earlier in career people of younger and earlier in career people I feel like are missing that point they I feel like are missing that point they I feel like are missing that point they don't see the big picture yes I think a don't see the big picture yes I think a don't see the big picture yes I think a lot of people especially me in lot of people especially me in lot of people especially me in particular for example like got into SE particular for example like got into SE particular for example like got into SE thinking about the fact that it's about thinking about the fact that it's about thinking about the fact that it's about your individual work and the quality of your individual work and the quality of your individual work and the quality of your individual work the quality of your your individual work the quality of your your individual work the quality of your design the quality of your code like design the quality of your code like design the quality of your code like you're running your code it works or it you're running your code it works or it you're running your code it works or it doesn't work it's fast or it's not fast doesn't work it's fast or it's not fast doesn't work it's fast or it's not fast that's what technology is about and when that's what technology is about and when that's what technology is about and when you start in your career it is about you start in your career it is about you start in your career it is about that as if you're PS like your PR your that as if you're PS like your PR your that as if you're PS like your PR your specs or your prds are any good quality specs or your prds are any good quality specs or your prds are any good quality that good quality you work directly in that good quality you work directly in that good quality you work directly in your team as an engineer it's about the your team as an engineer it's about the your team as an engineer it's about the code that you're write like for your code that you're write like for your code that you're write like for your particular feature but as your particular feature but as your particular feature but as your responsibility and scope grows like responsibility and scope grows like responsibility and scope grows like software is not too complex for like one software is not too complex for like one software is not too complex for like one person or one team the right you end up person or one team the right you end up person or one team the right you end up having a lot of in interdependencies and having a lot of in interdependencies and having a lot of in interdependencies and as you describ once you have as you describ once you have as you describ once you have interdependencies you you have to re to interdependencies you you have to re to interdependencies you you have to re to talk about iing work done and they have

talk about iing work done and they have talk about iing work done and they have their own like you know some other team their own like you know some other team their own like you know some other team some other product has its own some other product has its own some other product has its own priorities Sometimes some other company priorities Sometimes some other company priorities Sometimes some other company have their has their own priorities have their has their own priorities have their has their own priorities even your customers have different even your customers have different even your customers have different priorities as well and how do I now priorities as well and how do I now priorities as well and how do I now manage all of these to to actually manage all of these to to actually manage all of these to to actually deliver impact even just like what's the deliver impact even just like what's the deliver impact even just like what's the right code for you to write when becomes right code for you to write when becomes right code for you to write when becomes important I need other people to write important I need other people to write important I need other people to write code as well how do I get them to write code as well how do I get them to write code as well how do I get them to write the code that I want on the timeline the code that I want on the timeline the code that I want on the timeline that I want at the Quality that I want that I want at the Quality that I want that I want at the Quality that I want right so what has changed though from right so what has changed though from right so what has changed though from when you and I started 20 plus years ago when you and I started 20 plus years ago when you and I started 20 plus years ago where we felt like we could make those where we felt like we could make those where we felt like we could make those kind of strategic decisions where now kind of strategic decisions where now kind of strategic decisions where now there's a very defeatist there's a very there's a very defeatist there's a very there's a very defeatist there's a very Downer vibe in Tech and we hear Downer vibe in Tech and we hear Downer vibe in Tech and we hear Executives at the highest level making Executives at the highest level making Executives at the highest level making millions of dollars saying you should millions of dollars saying you should millions of dollars saying you should all be thinking about how you the little all be thinking about how you the little all be thinking about how you the little people can move the stock price but we people can move the stock price but we people can move the stock price but we know that a you know a level 59 which is know that a you know a level 59 which is know that a you know a level 59 which is the entry level at Microsoft you know or the entry level at Microsoft you know or the entry level at Microsoft you know or an engineer one very likely cannot have an engineer one very likely cannot have an engineer one very likely cannot have any motion on the stock price and then any motion on the stock price and then any motion on the stock price and then thereby when they hear the executive say thereby when they hear the executive say thereby when they hear the executive say that that they feel disempowered do you that that they feel disempowered do you that that they feel disempowered do you get the impression that the vibe in Tech get the impression that the vibe in Tech get the impression that the vibe in Tech right now is very powerless and I don't right now is very powerless and I don't right now is very powerless and I don't remember feeling like that 20 30 years remember feeling like that 20 30 years remember feeling like that 20 30 years ago there are multiple Dynamics at play ago there are multiple Dynamics at play ago there are multiple Dynamics at play there one of the key Dynamics is I would there one of the key Dynamics is I would there one of the key Dynamics is I would say Tech is more mature now than it was say Tech is more mature now than it was say Tech is more mature now than it was you know a number of years ago right in you know a number of years ago right in you know a number of years ago right in that like the shape of the ecosystem is

that like the shape of the ecosystem is that like the shape of the ecosystem is now clear and I think the term the EU now clear and I think the term the EU now clear and I think the term the EU uses you know which right we not The uses you know which right we not The uses you know which right we not The Gatekeepers are now pretty clear as Gatekeepers are now pretty clear as Gatekeepers are now pretty clear as well so you know 20 years ago you didn't well so you know 20 years ago you didn't well so you know 20 years ago you didn't feel like you needed any permission from feel like you needed any permission from feel like you needed any permission from anyone to do anything to build an app to anyone to do anything to build an app to anyone to do anything to build an app to build a browser that wasn't the way you build a browser that wasn't the way you build a browser that wasn't the way you felt you also felt like a green field felt you also felt like a green field felt you also felt like a green field where like there was so much opportunity where like there was so much opportunity where like there was so much opportunity in the kind of products you can build in the kind of products you can build in the kind of products you can build today is very different like today you today is very different like today you today is very different like today you know like if you want to build an app know like if you want to build an app know like if you want to build an app you know like you can name company if you know like you can name company if you know like you can name company if you want to build an app you'll be you want to build an app you'll be you want to build an app you'll be holding to what Apple wants and if holding to what Apple wants and if holding to what Apple wants and if you're doing or or Google Google ones you're doing or or Google Google ones you're doing or or Google Google ones even if you want to build a website even if you want to build a website even if you want to build a website you're holding to almost the same names you're holding to almost the same names you're holding to almost the same names because Safari and chrome are the most because Safari and chrome are the most because Safari and chrome are the most popular browsers so you'll be holding to popular browsers so you'll be holding to popular browsers so you'll be holding to what they care about which is not really what they care about which is not really what they care about which is not really how it SS even if it was that way that how it SS even if it was that way that how it SS even if it was that way that wasn't how it SS you know like 20 years wasn't how it SS you know like 20 years wasn't how it SS you know like 20 years ago at the first at the dawn of the web ago at the first at the dawn of the web ago at the first at the dawn of the web and then like you know a couple years and then like you know a couple years and then like you know a couple years later like at the dawn of mobile but later like at the dawn of mobile but later like at the dawn of mobile but it's very clearly the the sense you have it's very clearly the the sense you have it's very clearly the the sense you have now and I think like a lot of the now and I think like a lot of the now and I think like a lot of the enthusiasm around what's the next enthusiasm around what's the next enthusiasm around what's the next platform whether like it's interestes in platform whether like it's interestes in platform whether like it's interestes in crypto or the metaverse or whatever is crypto or the metaverse or whatever is crypto or the metaverse or whatever is wanting to find a space where it doesn't wanting to find a space where it doesn't wanting to find a space where it doesn't feel like you're constrained by some set feel like you're constrained by some set feel like you're constrained by some set of Gatekeepers or some set of companies of Gatekeepers or some set of companies of Gatekeepers or some set of companies who are so big that like there's no like who are so big that like there's no like who are so big that like there's no like wow there's no flicker there's like a wow there's no flicker there's like a wow there's no flicker there's like a bunch of folks just went in and made you bunch of folks just went in and made you bunch of folks just went in and made you know this really exciting cool thing and know this really exciting cool thing and know this really exciting cool thing and even when something does feel like that

even when something does feel like that even when something does feel like that it's not on the back of a handful of it's not on the back of a handful of it's not on the back of a handful of people building something cool it's a people building something cool it's a people building something cool it's a bunch of people who got hundreds bunch of people who got hundreds bunch of people who got hundreds millions of dollars in VC to try to do millions of dollars in VC to try to do millions of dollars in VC to try to do something so like Sigma is a great Sigma something so like Sigma is a great Sigma something so like Sigma is a great Sigma is like a thing that just feel like it is like a thing that just feel like it is like a thing that just feel like it came out of nowhere and show that there came out of nowhere and show that there came out of nowhere and show that there was like sloppers we didn't know we was like sloppers we didn't know we was like sloppers we didn't know we needed figma until figma got made and needed figma until figma got made and needed figma until figma got made and figma is also an example of a web app figma is also an example of a web app figma is also an example of a web app that from my perspective is impossible I that from my perspective is impossible I that from my perspective is impossible I know Tech I know JavaScript I know the know Tech I know JavaScript I know the know Tech I know JavaScript I know the platform all the way down to the metal platform all the way down to the metal platform all the way down to the metal it still is so good that I don't know it still is so good that I don't know it still is so good that I don't know how they pull it off with just how they pull it off with just how they pull it off with just JavaScript and canvas I didn't even know JavaScript and canvas I didn't even know JavaScript and canvas I didn't even know it on the back end it's like C++ being it on the back end it's like C++ being it on the back end it's like C++ being like then that's you know even more like then that's you know even more like then that's you know even more insane and I think the thing there is insane and I think the thing there is insane and I think the thing there is that they like apps like that went from that they like apps like that went from that they like apps like that went from being things that happened all the side being things that happened all the side being things that happened all the side to being rare and even then there's to being rare and even then there's to being rare and even then there's another set of Gatekeepers you have to another set of Gatekeepers you have to another set of Gatekeepers you have to get through which is the VCS right get through which is the VCS right get through which is the VCS right you're beholding to If You're Building you're beholding to If You're Building you're beholding to If You're Building not only the platforms if you try to not only the platforms if you try to not only the platforms if you try to build something cool today your choices build something cool today your choices build something cool today your choices are going through The Gatekeepers or the are going through The Gatekeepers or the are going through The Gatekeepers or the VCS which it's great for some people and VCS which it's great for some people and VCS which it's great for some people and not so great for others and or just like not so great for others and or just like not so great for others and or just like you know going to work in big Tech and you know going to work in big Tech and you know going to work in big Tech and the thing about big Tech is as you the thing about big Tech is as you the thing about big Tech is as you pointing out there isn't a ton of pointing out there isn't a ton of pointing out there isn't a ton of opportunity anymore the era of Google is opportunity anymore the era of Google is opportunity anymore the era of Google is building why they're building a new building why they're building a new building why they're building a new service every other weekend it's like is service every other weekend it's like is service every other weekend it's like is gone like the the the era of micro gone like the the the era of micro gone like the the the era of micro Microsoft going hey maybe we want to be Microsoft going hey maybe we want to be Microsoft going hey maybe we want to be young and and build a bunch of services

young and and build a bunch of services young and and build a bunch of services is gone as well like you only expect to is gone as well like you only expect to is gone as well like you only expect to hear to Google is unless it's a chat app hear to Google is unless it's a chat app hear to Google is unless it's a chat app is winding something down right but when is winding something down right but when is winding something down right but when you and I were coming up they were you and I were coming up they were you and I were coming up they were making a new thing every weekend and now making a new thing every weekend and now making a new thing every weekend and now they're killing a thing every weekend I they're killing a thing every weekend I they're killing a thing every weekend I don't know if you remember so you work don't know if you remember so you work don't know if you remember so you work this is just a random aside but I want this is just a random aside but I want this is just a random aside but I want to call it out because it's worth to call it out because it's worth to call it out because it's worth pointing out you worked on Windows Live pointing out you worked on Windows Live pointing out you worked on Windows Live and Windows Live writer I worked on MSN and Windows Live writer I worked on MSN and Windows Live writer I worked on MSN spaces Windows Live spaces and so that spaces Windows Live spaces and so that spaces Windows Live spaces and so that worked with writer because I the worked with writer because I the worked with writer because I the blogging app and yeah exactly so then blogging app and yeah exactly so then blogging app and yeah exactly so then you you probably remember that I worked you you probably remember that I worked you you probably remember that I worked with the team and then we eventually with the team and then we eventually with the team and then we eventually when writer died we open sourced it and when writer died we open sourced it and when writer died we open sourced it and we open sourced it and we call it now we open sourced it and we call it now we open sourced it and we call it now open Live writer and it's in the Windows open Live writer and it's in the Windows open Live writer and it's in the Windows store and it's open source and it was store and it's open source and it was store and it's open source and it was really hard thing to do last week I really hard thing to do last week I really hard thing to do last week I didn't tell you this because you don't didn't tell you this because you don't didn't tell you this because you don't care but like last week something broke care but like last week something broke care but like last week something broke on the Google back end for blogger and on the Google back end for blogger and on the Google back end for blogger and now people who use live writer are like now people who use live writer are like now people who use live writer are like losing their images and it's such a losing their images and it's such a losing their images and it's such a perfect example of bit rot because perfect example of bit rot because perfect example of bit rot because there's nobody there there's like there's nobody there there's like there's nobody there there's like there's literally no one there blogger there's literally no one there blogger there's literally no one there blogger could just be on someone's mini tower could just be on someone's mini tower could just be on someone's mini tower under someone's desk somewhere deep in under someone's desk somewhere deep in under someone's desk somewhere deep in Google and there's probably one human Google and there's probably one human Google and there's probably one human who has one day a week to keep blogger who has one day a week to keep blogger who has one day a week to keep blogger running by kicking that box I don't know running by kicking that box I don't know running by kicking that box I don't know who that human is but now I have who that human is but now I have who that human is but now I have thousands of users that are swarming on thousands of users that are swarming on thousands of users that are swarming on the open Live writer forums wanting to the open Live writer forums wanting to the open Live writer forums wanting to know what changed live writer hasn't had know what changed live writer hasn't had know what changed live writer hasn't had a build in two years it's fine it's a a build in two years it's fine it's a a build in two years it's fine it's a stable API but because it was built on

stable API but because it was built on stable API but because it was built on whatever blogger used us and then the whatever blogger used us and then the whatever blogger used us and then the Blogger apis and the media apis spilled Blogger apis and the media apis spilled Blogger apis and the media apis spilled on a house of sand unlike like you on a house of sand unlike like you on a house of sand unlike like you worked on famously on RSS Bandit which worked on famously on RSS Bandit which worked on famously on RSS Bandit which you worked you which buil on RSS I still you worked you which buil on RSS I still you worked you which buil on RSS I still run my own blog I'm working on getting run my own blog I'm working on getting run my own blog I'm working on getting my blog on the my blog on the my blog on the fediverse like should we be building on fediverse like should we be building on fediverse like should we be building on these big platforms or do you think it's these big platforms or do you think it's these big platforms or do you think it's a time for posi publish your own site a time for posi publish your own site a time for posi publish your own site and Syndicate everywhere could the web and Syndicate everywhere could the web and Syndicate everywhere could the web get weird again or do you think we're get weird again or do you think we're get weird again or do you think we're stuck with all these walled Gardens stuck with all these walled Gardens stuck with all these walled Gardens threads included so I think one of the threads included so I think one of the threads included so I think one of the questions you're asking is can we have questions you're asking is can we have questions you're asking is can we have an explosion of smaller sites do people an explosion of smaller sites do people an explosion of smaller sites do people do we need to have like these big giant do we need to have like these big giant do we need to have like these big giant like social media sites owned by uh like social media sites owned by uh like social media sites owned by uh large players I think unfortunately large players I think unfortunately large players I think unfortunately because of the scale of the web meaning because of the scale of the web meaning because of the scale of the web meaning once you have enough people you're G to once you have enough people you're G to once you have enough people you're G to have a bunch of bad people it's just you have a bunch of bad people it's just you have a bunch of bad people it's just you know it's like you know like like one of know it's like you know like like one of know it's like you know like like one of my one of the kind exercises I do to my one of the kind exercises I do to my one of the kind exercises I do to remind myself of this is that let's say remind myself of this is that let's say remind myself of this is that let's say there's like one in a 100,000 murderers there's like one in a 100,000 murderers there's like one in a 100,000 murderers like the murder rate is usually out of like the murder rate is usually out of like the murder rate is usually out of 100 out 100,000 like C is usually like 100 out 100,000 like C is usually like 100 out 100,000 like C is usually like one five six whatever like right so that one five six whatever like right so that one five six whatever like right so that means that like when a site says we have means that like when a site says we have means that like when a site says we have you know like a million users they you know like a million users they you know like a million users they literally yeah there's 60 murderers on literally yeah there's 60 murderers on literally yeah there's 60 murderers on their websites you're just arguing that their websites you're just arguing that their websites you're just arguing that like right now if you put 31 people in a like right now if you put 31 people in a like right now if you put 31 people in a room one of them has covid that's just room one of them has covid that's just room one of them has covid that's just stats and you're saying you put enough stats and you're saying you put enough stats and you're saying you put enough people on a social media site you have n people on a social media site you have n people on a social media site you have n number of murderers so not those agrees number of murderers so not those agrees number of murderers so not those agrees with murderers but like bullies rude

with murderers but like bullies rude with murderers but like bullies rude people whatever like the like it's just people whatever like the like it's just people whatever like the like it's just the numbers yeah yeah yeah which tend to the numbers yeah yeah yeah which tend to the numbers yeah yeah yeah which tend to end up like these large Services is that end up like these large Services is that end up like these large Services is that at a particular scale they overwhelm you at a particular scale they overwhelm you at a particular scale they overwhelm you and you know I I made a comment when and you know I I made a comment when and you know I I made a comment when threed was you know early on I think I threed was you know early on I think I threed was you know early on I think I made it internally at meta and I also made it internally at meta and I also made it internally at meta and I also settle externally the social media site settle externally the social media site settle externally the social media site is just two things recommendations and is just two things recommendations and is just two things recommendations and content moderation people want to see content moderation people want to see content moderation people want to see new stuff and they want to make sure you new stuff and they want to make sure you new stuff and they want to make sure you don't see any stuff that pisses them off don't see any stuff that pisses them off don't see any stuff that pisses them off makes them feel bad right and the second makes them feel bad right and the second makes them feel bad right and the second one has to be good otherwise the first one has to be good otherwise the first one has to be good otherwise the first one doesn't matter So eventually it's one doesn't matter So eventually it's one doesn't matter So eventually it's just content just content just content moderation but if I own the content and moderation but if I own the content and moderation but if I own the content and I do it on my tiny little site and we I do it on my tiny little site and we I do it on my tiny little site and we make it easier for people to spin up make it easier for people to spin up make it easier for people to spin up WordPress sites and things like that WordPress sites and things like that WordPress sites and things like that then the only content moderation I need then the only content moderation I need then the only content moderation I need is deleting comments on my own page I is deleting comments on my own page I is deleting comments on my own page I feel like this is a thing Windows Live feel like this is a thing Windows Live feel like this is a thing Windows Live spaces try to do it's a thing that spaces try to do it's a thing that spaces try to do it's a thing that WordPress has to do you know 2third of WordPress has to do you know 2third of WordPress has to do you know 2third of the internet is WordPress I think the the internet is WordPress I think the the internet is WordPress I think the problem is no one ever made it easy problem is no one ever made it easy problem is no one ever made it easy to have certificates and domains and to have certificates and domains and to have certificates and domains and stuff like that we had Wix and we have stuff like that we had Wix and we have stuff like that we had Wix and we have Squarespace which makes it easy to make Squarespace which makes it easy to make Squarespace which makes it easy to make a store we don't have geoc cities and a store we don't have geoc cities and a store we don't have geoc cities and all those kind of like person I think all those kind of like person I think all those kind of like person I think the fedy is trying to do that right like the fedy is trying to do that right like the fedy is trying to do that right like well you can host your own server even well you can host your own server even well you can host your own server even that is some degree of I mean the that is some degree of I mean the that is some degree of I mean the reality is that like again giv you think reality is that like again giv you think reality is that like again giv you think about the breath of basically technical about the breath of basically technical about the breath of basically technical Sav On the internet they people just Sav On the internet they people just Sav On the internet they people just creating an account as as much as far as creating an account as as much as far as creating an account as as much as far as they want to go that's the thing right

they want to go that's the thing right they want to go that's the thing right right my my non-technical parent does right my my non-technical parent does right my my non-technical parent does not want to run a server she just wants not want to run a server she just wants not want to run a server she just wants a page she just wants an account and so a page she just wants an account and so a page she just wants an account and so like no matter how easy you do you make like no matter how easy you do you make like no matter how easy you do you make it like there's still like even you're it like there's still like even you're it like there's still like even you're you're saying all you have to do is you're saying all you have to do is you're saying all you have to do is delete comments that's work I don't want delete comments that's work I don't want delete comments that's work I don't want to reach spam every day like I already to reach spam every day like I already to reach spam every day like I already got like I already deal with that an got like I already deal with that an got like I already deal with that an email it's it's pain L like I don't to email it's it's pain L like I don't to email it's it's pain L like I don't to read spam every day I you know like and read spam every day I you know like and read spam every day I you know like and so people just want to Outsource even so people just want to Outsource even so people just want to Outsource even that you know what you have in Freddy that you know what you have in Freddy that you know what you have in Freddy verse where like you still end up having verse where like you still end up having verse where like you still end up having Globs of collections of this person runs Globs of collections of this person runs Globs of collections of this person runs this thing and then it just becomes a this thing and then it just becomes a this thing and then it just becomes a power log of there'll be one that's most power log of there'll be one that's most power log of there'll be one that's most popular because they have the best hot popular because they have the best hot popular because they have the best hot matter issue and the best okay but then matter issue and the best okay but then matter issue and the best okay but then let me let me stop for a second that's let me let me stop for a second that's let me let me stop for a second that's cogs right cost of goods sold as soon as cogs right cost of goods sold as soon as cogs right cost of goods sold as soon as you have a long tail of I put aite up you have a long tail of I put aite up you have a long tail of I put aite up and now I have to keep it running I have and now I have to keep it running I have and now I have to keep it running I have to keep it from rotting and then content to keep it from rotting and then content to keep it from rotting and then content rotation becomes a thing where humans rotation becomes a thing where humans rotation becomes a thing where humans have to get involved then that means 3 have to get involved then that means 3 have to get involved then that means 3 four five 10 years down the road it's four five 10 years down the road it's four five 10 years down the road it's blogger and Google and has it's seven blogger and Google and has it's seven blogger and Google and has it's seven person team one person team half a person team one person team half a person team one person team half a person team now it's an intern and then person team now it's an intern and then person team now it's an intern and then they have to shut it down because the they have to shut it down because the they have to shut it down because the cost of goods sold goes up but it was cost of goods sold goes up but it was cost of goods sold goes up but it was always free so there was never any goods always free so there was never any goods always free so there was never any goods sold at all you can't have cogs and have sold at all you can't have cogs and have sold at all you can't have cogs and have zero revenue on all of these loss zero revenue on all of these loss zero revenue on all of these loss leaders yes that's one of the things leaders yes that's one of the things leaders yes that's one of the things that's unfortunate about how I work at that's unfortunate about how I work at that's unfortunate about how I work at ads right in my mind ads is like the ads right in my mind ads is like the ads right in my mind ads is like the greatest bus model Humanity has ever

greatest bus model Humanity has ever greatest bus model Humanity has ever come up with because it's wonderful come up with because it's wonderful come up with because it's wonderful because you know like it's a win-win for because you know like it's a win-win for because you know like it's a win-win for everyone you host a service you give it everyone you host a service you give it everyone you host a service you give it to people for free so people get access to people for free so people get access to people for free so people get access service regardless of income level you service regardless of income level you service regardless of income level you can be like a student in Nigeria you can can be like a student in Nigeria you can can be like a student in Nigeria you can be like you know like a billionaire you be like you know like a billionaire you be like you know like a billionaire you know like in in Silicon Valley and you know like in in Silicon Valley and you know like in in Silicon Valley and you use the same free Twitter so people get use the same free Twitter so people get use the same free Twitter so people get free services advertisers get like new free services advertisers get like new free services advertisers get like new business so like the businesses that business so like the businesses that business so like the businesses that would wouldn't exist if not for the would wouldn't exist if not for the would wouldn't exist if not for the internet and the awesome thing about internet and the awesome thing about internet and the awesome thing about advertising from a is like it's a advertising from a is like it's a advertising from a is like it's a progressive tax so people who spend a progressive tax so people who spend a progressive tax so people who spend a lot online who are rich end up lot online who are rich end up lot online who are rich end up subsidizing like the student in Nigeria subsidizing like the student in Nigeria subsidizing like the student in Nigeria who doesn't have to buy anything online who doesn't have to buy anything online who doesn't have to buy anything online to like so it's it's amazingly to like so it's it's amazingly to like so it's it's amazingly Progressive as opposed to like you know Progressive as opposed to like you know Progressive as opposed to like you know subscriptions regressive everybody now subscriptions regressive everybody now subscriptions regressive everybody now to come up with $ Five Doll you know to come up with $ Five Doll you know to come up with $ Five Doll you know regardless of whether $ Five Doll means regardless of whether $ Five Doll means regardless of whether $ Five Doll means nothing to you or you know like it's a nothing to you or you know like it's a nothing to you or you know like it's a day's wage or a week's wage I remember day's wage or a week's wage I remember day's wage or a week's wage I remember buying a to to skip past ads and there's buying a to to skip past ads and there's buying a to to skip past ads and there's always ways to avoid ads in the ad always ways to avoid ads in the ad always ways to avoid ads in the ad blockers some people say they don't surf blockers some people say they don't surf blockers some people say they don't surf the web without an ad blocker I feel the web without an ad blocker I feel the web without an ad blocker I feel though I agree with you that ads are an though I agree with you that ads are an though I agree with you that ads are an ideal way to subsidize free services but ideal way to subsidize free services but ideal way to subsidize free services but then it became creepy when we started then it became creepy when we started then it became creepy when we started following each other from sight to site following each other from sight to site following each other from sight to site and now there's this myth which I and now there's this myth which I and now there's this myth which I honestly as a techie I don't know if honestly as a techie I don't know if honestly as a techie I don't know if it's a myth or not where you know you it's a myth or not where you know you it's a myth or not where you know you say Kleenex out loud and tomorrow I'm say Kleenex out loud and tomorrow I'm say Kleenex out loud and tomorrow I'm going to get ads about Kleenex and I going to get ads about Kleenex and I going to get ads about Kleenex and I don't know if it was you who who which don't know if it was you who who which don't know if it was you who who which which of the listening devices in my which of the listening devices in my which of the listening devices in my house set that cookie but you you've all house set that cookie but you you've all house set that cookie but you you've all had we've all had that experience happen

had we've all had that experience happen had we've all had that experience happen don't you think that ads has an uncanny don't you think that ads has an uncanny don't you think that ads has an uncanny valley that it falls into of creepiness valley that it falls into of creepiness valley that it falls into of creepiness I would be lying if I didn't say that I would be lying if I didn't say that I would be lying if I didn't say that like unfortunately like 100,000 people like unfortunately like 100,000 people like unfortunately like 100,000 people six murderers like as people learned six murderers like as people learned six murderers like as people learned like oh the more you know about people like oh the more you know about people like oh the more you know about people the better the ads people got more the better the ads people got more the better the ads people got more incentivized and more scrupulous you incentivized and more scrupulous you incentivized and more scrupulous you know unfortunately and where like it did know unfortunately and where like it did know unfortunately and where like it did get too creepy and not only did it get get too creepy and not only did it get get too creepy and not only did it get too creepy you got creepy in a nonuseful too creepy you got creepy in a nonuseful too creepy you got creepy in a nonuseful way like I bought a thing last week and way like I bought a thing last week and way like I bought a thing last week and you're like yo would you like to buy you're like yo would you like to buy you're like yo would you like to buy this thing like you're like like I'm not this thing like you're like like I'm not this thing like you're like like I'm not going to buy a mattress every week I going to buy a mattress every week I going to buy a mattress every week I don't need mattresses following me don't need mattresses following me don't need mattresses following me around the internet for like two to around the internet for like two to around the internet for like two to three weeks everywhere so unfortunately three weeks everywhere so unfortunately three weeks everywhere so unfortunately I industry just failed to self-regulate I industry just failed to self-regulate I industry just failed to self-regulate there because it's unfortunately it's there because it's unfortunately it's there because it's unfortunately it's not just that you know like I mean this not just that you know like I mean this not just that you know like I mean this is where like my logical side come like is where like my logical side come like is where like my logical side come like it's not just that like it's creepy it's it's not just that like it's creepy it's it's not just that like it's creepy it's just not effective like no one is going just not effective like no one is going just not effective like no one is going to buy them five unless they get work to buy them five unless they get work to buy them five unless they get work even then they work at a hotel you're even then they work at a hotel you're even then they work at a hotel you're not buying them one at a time so no one not buying them one at a time so no one not buying them one at a time so no one is like I bought a mattress last week is like I bought a mattress last week is like I bought a mattress last week and you're trying to you should try to and you're trying to you should try to and you're trying to you should try to sell me a mattress again while I'm just sell me a mattress again while I'm just sell me a mattress again while I'm just reading a news article yeah yeah yeah reading a news article yeah yeah yeah reading a news article yeah yeah yeah the the usefulness is just not there the the usefulness is just not there the the usefulness is just not there yeah so so I unfortunately I think the yeah so so I unfortunately I think the yeah so so I unfortunately I think the tragedy of the commment happen there so tragedy of the commment happen there so tragedy of the commment happen there so while I why I do believe that like while I why I do believe that like while I why I do believe that like advertising helps like it's generally advertising helps like it's generally advertising helps like it's generally win-win the sad truth is that a bunch of win-win the sad truth is that a bunch of win-win the sad truth is that a bunch of advertising industry know like you can advertising industry know like you can advertising industry know like you can call out my employer as well just went call out my employer as well just went call out my employer as well just went too far and Mak like where people felt

too far and Mak like where people felt too far and Mak like where people felt uncomfortable regardless of whether like uncomfortable regardless of whether like uncomfortable regardless of whether like or not like hey this like advertising is or not like hey this like advertising is or not like hey this like advertising is PID for the service you ask to pay for PID for the service you ask to pay for PID for the service you ask to pay for it like yeah but this makes me feel it like yeah but this makes me feel it like yeah but this makes me feel uncomfortable and as an industry the uncomfortable and as an industry the uncomfortable and as an industry the industry did not self-regulate well industry did not self-regulate well industry did not self-regulate well enough to like address those concerns enough to like address those concerns enough to like address those concerns yeah well I mean I didn't mean to back yeah well I mean I didn't mean to back yeah well I mean I didn't mean to back you in a corner for you to think about you in a corner for you to think about you in a corner for you to think about your employer I'll I'll throw my your employer I'll I'll throw my your employer I'll I'll throw my employer under the bus because I I had employer under the bus because I I had employer under the bus because I I had recently a a little tiny win where in recently a a little tiny win where in recently a a little tiny win where in modern builds of Windows now you can modern builds of Windows now you can modern builds of Windows now you can turn off the widgets pay which was just turn off the widgets pay which was just turn off the widgets pay which was just giving me you know a bunch of spammy giving me you know a bunch of spammy giving me you know a bunch of spammy news garbage the fact that we had to news garbage the fact that we had to news garbage the fact that we had to guilt people that I had to do internal guilt people that I had to do internal guilt people that I had to do internal threads that I had to complain to VPS threads that I had to complain to VPS threads that I had to complain to VPS that I had to shame us publicly and that I had to shame us publicly and that I had to shame us publicly and others as well I mean I'm not taking others as well I mean I'm not taking others as well I mean I'm not taking credit for the work but like that it's credit for the work but like that it's credit for the work but like that it's even a conversation that I don't want even a conversation that I don't want even a conversation that I don't want like the national Inquirer next to my like the national Inquirer next to my like the national Inquirer next to my CPU widget on the computer that I own on CPU widget on the computer that I own on CPU widget on the computer that I own on the operating system that I paid for is the operating system that I paid for is the operating system that I paid for is a ridiculous conversation to be having a ridiculous conversation to be having a ridiculous conversation to be having and it's not off by default you know and it's not off by default you know and it's not off by default you know what I mean I'm still going to have to what I mean I'm still going to have to what I mean I'm still going to have to install Windows and then turn it off is install Windows and then turn it off is install Windows and then turn it off is so dumb it's like one more check box for so dumb it's like one more check box for so dumb it's like one more check box for me to do but it's course I haven't also me to do but it's course I haven't also me to do but it's course I haven't also bought a copy of Windows in many years bought a copy of Windows in many years bought a copy of Windows in many years right it comes with the PC for most right it comes with the PC for most right it comes with the PC for most people so then maybe Windows is a free people so then maybe Windows is a free people so then maybe Windows is a free OS which brings to the same the thing OS which brings to the same the thing OS which brings to the same the thing you've got to pay for it somehow yeah you've got to pay for it somehow yeah you've got to pay for it somehow yeah there's no such thing as a free lunch there's no such thing as a free lunch there's no such thing as a free lunch even though zero interest rates made it even though zero interest rates made it even though zero interest rates made it feel that way for several years similar feel that way for several years similar feel that way for several years similar to you know the conversation with to you know the conversation with to you know the conversation with streaming where like it simply was streaming where like it simply was streaming where like it simply was reasonable for all of these services to

reasonable for all of these services to reasonable for all of these services to be making all of these shows and be making all of these shows and be making all of these shows and charging you like five bucks for it I charging you like five bucks for it I charging you like five bucks for it I want to call that out you said something want to call that out you said something want to call that out you said something really deep recently you said Positive really deep recently you said Positive really deep recently you said Positive Vibes over business value was a zero Vibes over business value was a zero Vibes over business value was a zero interest rate phenomenon at the end of interest rate phenomenon at the end of interest rate phenomenon at the end of our podcast here would you unpack that our podcast here would you unpack that our podcast here would you unpack that talk to me really briefly about what a talk to me really briefly about what a talk to me really briefly about what a zero interest rate phenomenon is and why zero interest rate phenomenon is and why zero interest rate phenomenon is and why it isn't sustainable and why we're it isn't sustainable and why we're it isn't sustainable and why we're seeing that really intensely right now seeing that really intensely right now seeing that really intensely right now with layoffs and even more we had I with layoffs and even more we had I with layoffs and even more we had I guess historically uh low interest rates guess historically uh low interest rates guess historically uh low interest rates for like for in the past like decade and for like for in the past like decade and for like for in the past like decade and a half and what that generally meant was a half and what that generally meant was a half and what that generally meant was that like borrowing money was cheap that like borrowing money was cheap that like borrowing money was cheap because if you kept like your interest because if you kept like your interest because if you kept like your interest rates were so low so like you were rates were so low so like you were rates were so low so like you were better off just giving people money and better off just giving people money and better off just giving people money and investing it than saving it in like and investing it than saving it in like and investing it than saving it in like and doing like anything non-risky so you're doing like anything non-risky so you're doing like anything non-risky so you're incentivized to be risky with the money incentivized to be risky with the money incentivized to be risky with the money and so like that percolated through the and so like that percolated through the and so like that percolated through the system like you know like instead of system like you know like instead of system like you know like instead of like having your money like having your like having your money like having your like having your money like having your money in the bank it's better off money in the bank it's better off money in the bank it's better off investing like even regular Rank and investing like even regular Rank and investing like even regular Rank and file um big Tech employees were like file um big Tech employees were like file um big Tech employees were like investing in startups which was like is investing in startups which was like is investing in startups which was like is super risky because they were like hey I super risky because they were like hey I super risky because they were like hey I like I have this all of this free money like I have this all of this free money like I have this all of this free money we got to a point where no one just we got to a point where no one just we got to a point where no one just bothered asking this work that we're bothered asking this work that we're bothered asking this work that we're doing like everyone was building lots of doing like everyone was building lots of doing like everyone was building lots of random stuff like I think like Snapchat random stuff like I think like Snapchat random stuff like I think like Snapchat was like we have a drone the follows was like we have a drone the follows was like we have a drone the follows year around we're gon to go like you year around we're gon to go like you year around we're gon to go like you know like for like company to do but know like for like company to do but know like for like company to do but it's unclear like how much of a business it's unclear like how much of a business it's unclear like how much of a business that is for like photo sharing app yeah that is for like photo sharing app yeah that is for like photo sharing app yeah yeah I saw the ads it's a little plastic

yeah I saw the ads it's a little plastic yeah I saw the ads it's a little plastic drone little cheap Chinese drone that drone little cheap Chinese drone that drone little cheap Chinese drone that floats up in the air takes a picture of floats up in the air takes a picture of floats up in the air takes a picture of you because you don't want to put your you because you don't want to put your you because you don't want to put your arm out like if we as a society we still arm out like if we as a society we still arm out like if we as a society we still can't feed the hungry we still don't can't feed the hungry we still don't can't feed the hungry we still don't have health care but I'm how many cheap have health care but I'm how many cheap have health care but I'm how many cheap plastic drones could you pump out until plastic drones could you pump out until plastic drones could you pump out until you go okay I got enough and the AI pin you go okay I got enough and the AI pin you go okay I got enough and the AI pin and the rabbit everyone's all in a Gog and the rabbit everyone's all in a Gog and the rabbit everyone's all in a Gog about the rabbit AI device that's that's about the rabbit AI device that's that's about the rabbit AI device that's that's an app that's not a device that's stupid an app that's not a device that's stupid an app that's not a device that's stupid I mean period sorry to be so crisp but I mean period sorry to be so crisp but I mean period sorry to be so crisp but that just somebody paid them though like that just somebody paid them though like that just somebody paid them though like someone raised money for that product I someone raised money for that product I someone raised money for that product I mean that's that's exactly the thing mean that's that's exactly the thing mean that's that's exactly the thing there was a time when like no idea was there was a time when like no idea was there was a time when like no idea was too bad everyone got funding and too bad everyone got funding and too bad everyone got funding and everyone got funding with that you'll everyone got funding with that you'll everyone got funding with that you'll grow and you'll figure it out and part grow and you'll figure it out and part grow and you'll figure it out and part of the myth of that was because a bunch of the myth of that was because a bunch of the myth of that was because a bunch of companies did do that like Google of companies did do that like Google of companies did do that like Google famously was like we're just going to famously was like we're just going to famously was like we're just going to give people a lot of money to hang out give people a lot of money to hang out give people a lot of money to hang out and they're smart and yeah they stumbled and they're smart and yeah they stumbled and they're smart and yeah they stumbled on the on their ads business model and on the on their ads business model and on the on their ads business model and you know like even like meta and you know like even like meta and you know like even like meta and Facebook no one believed that it would Facebook no one believed that it would Facebook no one believed that it would one day be as big a company as it this one day be as big a company as it this one day be as big a company as it this today so that should by as being what it today so that should by as being what it today so that should by as being what it is people then believe like you just is people then believe like you just is people then believe like you just have to have a big company and it'll have to have a big company and it'll have to have a big company and it'll make a bunch of money and we now know make a bunch of money and we now know make a bunch of money and we now know that's not true you know you can have a that's not true you know you can have a that's not true you know you can have a giant company and all you're doing is giant company and all you're doing is giant company and all you're doing is losing money it is not yeah hope is not losing money it is not yeah hope is not losing money it is not yeah hope is not a business strategy but for a long time a business strategy but for a long time a business strategy but for a long time it was yeah for a long time it was but it was yeah for a long time it was but it was yeah for a long time it was but the free launch is over and the zero the free launch is over and the zero the free launch is over and the zero interest rates are no longer going to interest rates are no longer going to interest rates are no longer going to happen happen happen I I just want to tell you that I I I just want to tell you that I I I just want to tell you that I appreciate your commentary I have for

appreciate your commentary I have for appreciate your commentary I have for many years and I just wanted to like you many years and I just wanted to like you many years and I just wanted to like you know have you on the show as an know have you on the show as an know have you on the show as an appreciation to remind people that appreciation to remind people that appreciation to remind people that you're out there dropping knowledge you you're out there dropping knowledge you you're out there dropping knowledge you can find Dar all over the Internet can find Dar all over the Internet can find Dar all over the Internet whether it be masted on threads or whether it be masted on threads or whether it be masted on threads or whatever as Carnage for Life Carnage the whatever as Carnage for Life Carnage the whatever as Carnage for Life Carnage the number four life basically your username number four life basically your username number four life basically your username everywhere and I continue to appreciate everywhere and I continue to appreciate everywhere and I continue to appreciate your insights and I thank you for coming your insights and I thank you for coming your insights and I thank you for coming on the show today hey it's great talking on the show today hey it's great talking on the show today hey it's great talking to you too I can't believe it's it's to you too I can't believe it's it's to you too I can't believe it's it's like 12 years yeah since the last time like 12 years yeah since the last time like 12 years yeah since the last time we tried it that's crazy I got to look we tried it that's crazy I got to look we tried it that's crazy I got to look at the thing here to see when the you're at the thing here to see when the you're at the thing here to see when the you're going to be like episode 930 something I going to be like episode 930 something I going to be like episode 930 something I had you on had you on had you on episode3 you took a chance on me in 2008 episode3 you took a chance on me in 2008 episode3 you took a chance on me in 2008 to talk about the interesting problems to talk about the interesting problems to talk about the interesting problems that social networking sites make 16 that social networking sites make 16 that social networking sites make 16 years ago you were already being a years ago you were already being a years ago you were already being a strategist about the social graph really strategist about the social graph really strategist about the social graph really interesting stuff that's so crazy I interesting stuff that's so crazy I interesting stuff that's so crazy I can't believe it's been so long cool man can't believe it's been so long cool man can't believe it's been so long cool man it was it was great talking to you take it was it was great talking to you take it was it was great talking to you take care thank you this is been another care thank you this is been another care thank you this is been another episode of Hansel minutes and we'll see episode of Hansel minutes and we'll see episode of Hansel minutes and we'll see you again next you again next you again next [Music]