Reinventing the API Gateway with Zuplo's Josh Twist

I want to welcome partner hero the I want to welcome partner hero the Hanselman sponsor family they provide Hanselman sponsor family they provide Hanselman sponsor family they provide customer service Outsourcing that's customer service Outsourcing that's customer service Outsourcing that's built for the needs of scaling and high built for the needs of scaling and high built for the needs of scaling and high growth startups partner hero offers growth startups partner hero offers growth startups partner hero offers flexible terms fast onboarding and the flexible terms fast onboarding and the flexible terms fast onboarding and the ability to scale teams quickly which is ability to scale teams quickly which is ability to scale teams quickly which is perfect for fast growing perfect for fast growing perfect for fast growing businesses in my experience Outsourcing businesses in my experience Outsourcing businesses in my experience Outsourcing tends to have a bad reputation as being tends to have a bad reputation as being tends to have a bad reputation as being exploitative and low quality but partner exploitative and low quality but partner exploitative and low quality but partner Heroes values based approach will raise Heroes values based approach will raise Heroes values based approach will raise the bar for the Outsourcing industry by the bar for the Outsourcing industry by the bar for the Outsourcing industry by investing in employee empowerment and investing in employee empowerment and investing in employee empowerment and focusing on career growth they pay above focusing on career growth they pay above focusing on career growth they pay above Market salaries and they maintain a Market salaries and they maintain a Market salaries and they maintain a focus on quality and performance they focus on quality and performance they focus on quality and performance they also offer these flexible terms for you also offer these flexible terms for you also offer these flexible terms for you to scale quickly which is perfect for to scale quickly which is perfect for to scale quickly which is perfect for startups they bake quality assurance startups they bake quality assurance startups they bake quality assurance into every program and they have offices into every program and they have offices into every program and they have offices around the world so they can provide a around the world so they can provide a around the world so they can provide a truly Global coverage that means onshore truly Global coverage that means onshore truly Global coverage that means onshore Nearshore and offshore Outsourcing has Nearshore and offshore Outsourcing has Nearshore and offshore Outsourcing has long been available to Big Enterprise long been available to Big Enterprise long been available to Big Enterprise businesses but partner hero was businesses but partner hero was businesses but partner hero was challenging the business as usual and challenging the business as usual and challenging the business as usual and bringing those benefits to startups bringing those benefits to startups bringing those benefits to startups short flexible contracts fast rampup short flexible contracts fast rampup short flexible contracts fast rampup times values integrity and expertise if times values integrity and expertise if times values integrity and expertise if you're ready to bring in outside you're ready to bring in outside you're ready to bring in outside customer support help for your startup customer support help for your startup customer support help for your startup that feels like it's a part of your that feels like it's a part of your that feels like it's a part of your existing team check out partner hero existing team check out partner hero existing team check out partner hero head on over to partner hero.com Hansel head on over to partner hero.com Hansel head on over to partner hero.com Hansel minutes you can book a free consultation minutes you can book a free consultation minutes you can book a free consultation with their Solutions team mention you with their Solutions team mention you with their Solutions team mention you heard about partner hero from Hansel heard about partner hero from Hansel heard about partner hero from Hansel minutes and the wave the setup minutes and the wave the setup minutes and the wave the setup [Music] hi I'm Scott Hanselman this is another

hi I'm Scott Hanselman this is another episode of Hansel minutes today I'm episode of Hansel minutes today I'm episode of Hansel minutes today I'm chatting with Josh twist co-founder and chatting with Josh twist co-founder and chatting with Josh twist co-founder and CEO at zlo API management how are you CEO at zlo API management how are you CEO at zlo API management how are you sir I am awesome it's great to to be on sir I am awesome it's great to to be on sir I am awesome it's great to to be on Hansel minutes can I say that thing Hansel minutes can I say that thing Hansel minutes can I say that thing where it's a first time you know first where it's a first time you know first where it's a first time you know first time call a long time listener I've said time call a long time listener I've said time call a long time listener I've said it the wrong way around but I've been it the wrong way around but I've been it the wrong way around but I've been listening to this for years I appreciate listening to this for years I appreciate listening to this for years I appreciate that yeah we're coming up on 9 something that yeah we're coming up on 9 something that yeah we're coming up on 9 something 930 940 up episodes we'll hit a th soon 930 940 up episodes we'll hit a th soon 930 940 up episodes we'll hit a th soon I got to figure out someone said should I got to figure out someone said should I got to figure out someone said should I celebrate a th000 episodes or 1,24 I celebrate a th000 episodes or 1,24 I celebrate a th000 episodes or 1,24 episodes the Gibby bite versus the yeah episodes the Gibby bite versus the yeah episodes the Gibby bite versus the yeah sure I think it's got to be a thousand sure I think it's got to be a thousand sure I think it's got to be a thousand you got to do a thousand yeah I got to you got to do a thousand yeah I got to you got to do a thousand yeah I got to celebrate the round numbers though celebrate the round numbers though celebrate the round numbers though that's true cool so you know you and I that's true cool so you know you and I that's true cool so you know you and I have known each other for many many have known each other for many many have known each other for many many years but I haven't actually talked to years but I haven't actually talked to years but I haven't actually talked to you in n a decade no eight years or so I you in n a decade no eight years or so I you in n a decade no eight years or so I think yeah eight years you're one of think yeah eight years you're one of think yeah eight years you're one of those people that is out there doing those people that is out there doing those people that is out there doing cool stuff uh I was talking to a friend cool stuff uh I was talking to a friend cool stuff uh I was talking to a friend of mine about the maintenance of of mine about the maintenance of of mine about the maintenance of friendships in the 21st century when friendships in the 21st century when friendships in the 21st century when social media where you're in someone's social media where you're in someone's social media where you're in someone's brain and you like you see their kids brain and you like you see their kids brain and you like you see their kids grow up you see their Facebooks you see grow up you see their Facebooks you see grow up you see their Facebooks you see their Instagrams and you know like I their Instagrams and you know like I their Instagrams and you know like I haven't talked you in eight years but haven't talked you in eight years but haven't talked you in eight years but nothing's changed we slipped right back nothing's changed we slipped right back nothing's changed we slipped right back in like a comfortable shoe yeah H it's in like a comfortable shoe yeah H it's in like a comfortable shoe yeah H it's funny how that is it makes me a little funny how that is it makes me a little funny how that is it makes me a little bit sad but it's also funny how that bit sad but it's also funny how that bit sad but it's also funny how that works no it's nice though isn't it you works no it's nice though isn't it you works no it's nice though isn't it you know when you you reconnect and I mean know when you you reconnect and I mean know when you you reconnect and I mean there's just a lot of stuff to catch up there's just a lot of stuff to catch up there's just a lot of stuff to catch up on isn't there so um PHS like it didn't on isn't there so um PHS like it didn't on isn't there so um PHS like it didn't feel like it was eight years put it that feel like it was eight years put it that feel like it was eight years put it that way yeah I still refus to admit that it way yeah I still refus to admit that it way yeah I still refus to admit that it was so you know you were a a principal was so you know you were a a principal was so you know you were a a principal pm at Microsoft for a number of years pm at Microsoft for a number of years pm at Microsoft for a number of years you worked on workflow you worked as an you worked on workflow you worked as an you worked on workflow you worked as an application developer you worked as a PM application developer you worked as a PM application developer you worked as a PM and you did API management then you went

and you did API management then you went and you did API management then you went to Facebook you went to stripe when did to Facebook you went to stripe when did to Facebook you went to stripe when did you decide and how did you decide that you decide and how did you decide that you decide and how did you decide that it was time to start your own company oh it was time to start your own company oh it was time to start your own company oh good question and a little bit of an good question and a little bit of an good question and a little bit of an emotional story actually so you know I emotional story actually so you know I emotional story actually so you know I was part of the team that launched as was part of the team that launched as was part of the team that launched as your API management through an your API management through an your API management through an acquisition we had a company called acquisition we had a company called acquisition we had a company called Epiphany that's 10 years ago it was Epiphany that's 10 years ago it was Epiphany that's 10 years ago it was October 2013 I looked it up the October 2013 I looked it up the October 2013 I looked it up the announcement on TechCrunch and you know announcement on TechCrunch and you know announcement on TechCrunch and you know what the time I always thought there was what the time I always thought there was what the time I always thought there was an opportunity to do something a little an opportunity to do something a little an opportunity to do something a little bit different in that space and I kind bit different in that space and I kind bit different in that space and I kind of sat and watched for 10 years and then of sat and watched for 10 years and then of sat and watched for 10 years and then I I joined stripe in would have been I I joined stripe in would have been I I joined stripe in would have been 2021 I guess early 2021 I guess early 2021 I guess early 2021 and was leading product there for 2021 and was leading product there for 2021 and was leading product there for their payment methods team so still more their payment methods team so still more their payment methods team so still more API stuff looking after all their apis API stuff looking after all their apis API stuff looking after all their apis and all the different API methods around and all the different API methods around and all the different API methods around the world and then sadly about three the world and then sadly about three the world and then sadly about three weeks into joining stripe which is a weeks into joining stripe which is a weeks into joining stripe which is a great company my mom passed away great company my mom passed away great company my mom passed away suddenly and she was pretty young she suddenly and she was pretty young she suddenly and she was pretty young she was only 20 years older than me and an was only 20 years older than me and an was only 20 years older than me and an event like that really just makes you event like that really just makes you event like that really just makes you kind of question your prior priorities kind of question your prior priorities kind of question your prior priorities you know and kind of grew up in a poor you know and kind of grew up in a poor you know and kind of grew up in a poor background so I sort of enjoyed working background so I sort of enjoyed working background so I sort of enjoyed working at Big Co and the financial security at Big Co and the financial security at Big Co and the financial security that offered no offensive strike but did that offered no offensive strike but did that offered no offensive strike but did I want to work on making a debits 3% I want to work on making a debits 3% I want to work on making a debits 3% faster or did I want to you know take faster or did I want to you know take faster or did I want to you know take that leap and go and build this company that leap and go and build this company that leap and go and build this company that I'd had in mind for some time and that I'd had in mind for some time and that I'd had in mind for some time and so that was kind of the the Catalyst so that was kind of the the Catalyst so that was kind of the the Catalyst that made me go do it and the company that made me go do it and the company that made me go do it and the company had been in your head for a while it's had been in your head for a while it's had been in your head for a while it's one of those things where you have a one of those things where you have a one of those things where you have a thing you can't get out of your brain thing you can't get out of your brain thing you can't get out of your brain but you need that that push or to make but you need that that push or to make but you need that that push or to make that leap it's funny you say that that leap it's funny you say that that leap it's funny you say that because I founded it with another x because I founded it with another x because I founded it with another x Microsoft guy who you worked with if you Microsoft guy who you worked with if you Microsoft guy who you worked with if you remember Nate Totton uh used to work remember Nate Totton uh used to work remember Nate Totton uh used to work with you on Old the Keynotes at build with you on Old the Keynotes at build with you on Old the Keynotes at build and so on and when we started working on and so on and when we started working on and so on and when we started working on it it was like a design poured out of my

it it was like a design poured out of my it it was like a design poured out of my head because I'd already thought about head because I'd already thought about head because I'd already thought about what the UI looked like what the what the UI looked like what the what the UI looked like what the controls look like how this thing worked controls look like how this thing worked controls look like how this thing worked that it was all text base like every that it was all text base like every that it was all text base like every more or less everything was there yeah more or less everything was there yeah more or less everything was there yeah and we just put it down to paper and and we just put it down to paper and and we just put it down to paper and started building I'm curious and this started building I'm curious and this started building I'm curious and this might be an awkward question when you might be an awkward question when you might be an awkward question when you have that confidence that you know what have that confidence that you know what have that confidence that you know what the Design's going to look like where the Design's going to look like where the Design's going to look like where does that confidence come from you knew does that confidence come from you knew does that confidence come from you knew this space you knew how you wanted it to this space you knew how you wanted it to this space you knew how you wanted it to be and it poured out of you right you be and it poured out of you right you be and it poured out of you right you did you ever think maybe this wasn't the did you ever think maybe this wasn't the did you ever think maybe this wasn't the right architecture but you you seem to right architecture but you you seem to right architecture but you you seem to always know and it's very opinionated always know and it's very opinionated always know and it's very opinionated it's like this is how it should have it's like this is how it should have it's like this is how it should have been designed from the start there was a been designed from the start there was a been designed from the start there was a Rick Rubin interview recently that's Rick Rubin interview recently that's Rick Rubin interview recently that's gone kind of viral where he says you got gone kind of viral where he says you got gone kind of viral where he says you got to build for yourself you know if you're to build for yourself you know if you're to build for yourself you know if you're an art musical artist you create the an art musical artist you create the an art musical artist you create the music for yourself and if you really music for yourself and if you really music for yourself and if you really focus on that your audience the Right focus on that your audience the Right focus on that your audience the Right audience will love it and so I just audience will love it and so I just audience will love it and so I just thought about the product I would want thought about the product I would want thought about the product I would want to use in this space you know and I'm to use in this space you know and I'm to use in this space you know and I'm very much like engineer engineering very much like engineer engineering very much like engineer engineering background I I still write code actually background I I still write code actually background I I still write code actually I wrote most of the actual Gateway I wrote most of the actual Gateway I wrote most of the actual Gateway myself I don't do that so much these myself I don't do that so much these myself I don't do that so much these days but and so I just applied that mind days but and so I just applied that mind days but and so I just applied that mind and that was what gave me confidence but and that was what gave me confidence but and that was what gave me confidence but I will say it was a hypothesis can we I will say it was a hypothesis can we I will say it was a hypothesis can we you know that the first thing I wanted you know that the first thing I wanted you know that the first thing I wanted to test is you know I had this comfy job to test is you know I had this comfy job to test is you know I had this comfy job at these big big organizations and at these big big organizations and at these big big organizations and taking a risk like this the first thing taking a risk like this the first thing taking a risk like this the first thing I wanted to prove is is this is this a I wanted to prove is is this is this a I wanted to prove is is this is this a good idea or is this just me you know good idea or is this just me you know good idea or is this just me you know riffing here and uh that was one of the riffing here and uh that was one of the riffing here and uh that was one of the first things we wanted to get through to first things we wanted to get through to first things we wanted to get through to be honest all right so let's talk about be honest all right so let's talk about be honest all right so let's talk about what zup is it's a serverless Gateway what zup is it's a serverless Gateway what zup is it's a serverless Gateway and it is sitting between your client and it is sitting between your client and it is sitting between your client and your backend API it's basically a and your backend API it's basically a and your backend API it's basically a proxy for the backend or what they call proxy for the backend or what they call proxy for the backend or what they call the origin API so like I have let's just

the origin API so like I have let's just the origin API so like I have let's just use an example I have an API that use an example I have an API that use an example I have an API that manages my blood sugar that blood sugar manages my blood sugar that blood sugar manages my blood sugar that blood sugar API exists in one server in one location API exists in one server in one location API exists in one server in one location so me accessing it from Australia is so me accessing it from Australia is so me accessing it from Australia is going to have a different experience going to have a different experience going to have a different experience than me accessing it from Europe or than me accessing it from Europe or than me accessing it from Europe or Chicago where it's hosted and then me Chicago where it's hosted and then me Chicago where it's hosted and then me accessing it from an iPhone in this case accessing it from an iPhone in this case accessing it from an iPhone in this case it's or or Windows machine it's all the it's or or Windows machine it's all the it's or or Windows machine it's all the same because it's just me directly same because it's just me directly same because it's just me directly talking to that backend API why do I talking to that backend API why do I talking to that backend API why do I need something in between me and my need something in between me and my need something in between me and my origin API so there's two phases to the origin API so there's two phases to the origin API so there's two phases to the story the first one I'll talk about is story the first one I'll talk about is story the first one I'll talk about is smaller smaller businesses so if you smaller smaller businesses so if you smaller smaller businesses so if you think about shipping an API that think about shipping an API that think about shipping an API that somebody else is going to use today the somebody else is going to use today the somebody else is going to use today the bar has really been set quite High H bar has really been set quite High H bar has really been set quite High H most people sort of think of stripe as most people sort of think of stripe as most people sort of think of stripe as the gold standard actually as like the gold standard actually as like the gold standard actually as like having the best developer experience having the best developer experience having the best developer experience whether that's true or not today is whether that's true or not today is whether that's true or not today is debatable but still how people hold it debatable but still how people hold it debatable but still how people hold it to get to that point point now you don't to get to that point point now you don't to get to that point point now you don't just build an API and build all your just build an API and build all your just build an API and build all your routes you need good developer routes you need good developer routes you need good developer documentation you need self- serve Key documentation you need self- serve Key documentation you need self- serve Key Management you need great analytics on Management you need great analytics on Management you need great analytics on the API you need protection you know if the API you need protection you know if the API you need protection you know if you launch an API your partner it's you launch an API your partner it's you launch an API your partner it's never Anonymous attacking you your never Anonymous attacking you your never Anonymous attacking you your partner or your internal developers will partner or your internal developers will partner or your internal developers will take you down with a clumsy for Loop take you down with a clumsy for Loop take you down with a clumsy for Loop that's what's going to happen and that's what's going to happen and that's what's going to happen and seriously the number of conversations I seriously the number of conversations I seriously the number of conversations I have where that's like someone says to have where that's like someone says to have where that's like someone says to me I'm not interested I don't need rate me I'm not interested I don't need rate me I'm not interested I don't need rate limiting and they call me back in a limiting and they call me back in a limiting and they call me back in a month like yeah yeah one of our one of month like yeah yeah one of our one of month like yeah yeah one of our one of our developers did use effect wrongly in our developers did use effect wrongly in our developers did use effect wrongly in react and our back end went down I I react and our back end went down I I react and our back end went down I I love that term though the uh the the love that term though the uh the the love that term though the uh the the clumsy for Loop cuz that's exactly what clumsy for Loop cuz that's exactly what clumsy for Loop cuz that's exactly what it is you know when something feels slow it is you know when something feels slow it is you know when something feels slow or when something hangs I'm just like I or when something hangs I'm just like I or when something hangs I'm just like I think I'm in some dude's for Lo right

think I'm in some dude's for Lo right think I'm in some dude's for Lo right now just I think you're taking down our now just I think you're taking down our now just I think you're taking down our own back end you know so all these own back end you know so all these own back end you know so all these horizontal things you need to have a horizontal things you need to have a horizontal things you need to have a kind of stripe quality experience so kind of stripe quality experience so kind of stripe quality experience so zupo for smaller business is that out of zupo for smaller business is that out of zupo for smaller business is that out of a box you know literally you will we a box you know literally you will we a box you know literally you will we will just accelerate your time to will just accelerate your time to will just accelerate your time to getting to that quality of experience to getting to that quality of experience to getting to that quality of experience to offer to your developers we think offer to your developers we think offer to your developers we think Engineers like like I know I am I know Engineers like like I know I am I know Engineers like like I know I am I know you are are sort of Crafts People this you are are sort of Crafts People this you are are sort of Crafts People this actually something I got from Guthrie I actually something I got from Guthrie I actually something I got from Guthrie I remember a speech he gave when I was remember a speech he gave when I was remember a speech he gave when I was back at Microsoft about being a back at Microsoft about being a back at Microsoft about being a Craftsman you know we really care about Craftsman you know we really care about Craftsman you know we really care about what we put into the world we want other what we put into the world we want other what we put into the world we want other developers to like it and so when you developers to like it and so when you developers to like it and so when you put your API out there you want people put your API out there you want people put your API out there you want people to like what you've done and be able to to like what you've done and be able to to like what you've done and be able to use it and think this is cool this is use it and think this is cool this is use it and think this is cool this is great so we try and help you do that and great so we try and help you do that and great so we try and help you do that and then at the larger end we have large then at the larger end we have large then at the larger end we have large customers who you know what it's like at customers who you know what it's like at customers who you know what it's like at these you know the extreme scale there's these you know the extreme scale there's these you know the extreme scale there's hundreds of teams working on hundreds of hundreds of teams working on hundreds of hundreds of teams working on hundreds of apis or thousands of apis maybe if you apis or thousands of apis maybe if you apis or thousands of apis maybe if you just let every team run independently just let every team run independently just let every team run independently and like choose their own open source and like choose their own open source and like choose their own open source off package and you know their own rate off package and you know their own rate off package and you know their own rate limiting implementation that just limiting implementation that just limiting implementation that just becomes an unmanageable sprawl for a becomes an unmanageable sprawl for a becomes an unmanageable sprawl for a single organization so that's where API single organization so that's where API single organization so that's where API management really gets the management management really gets the management management really gets the management term from and you know you want a single term from and you know you want a single term from and you know you want a single pan of glass a single sort of choke pan of glass a single sort of choke pan of glass a single sort of choke point which is the the management plan point which is the the management plan point which is the the management plan where you can ensure you've got where you can ensure you've got where you can ensure you've got consistent authentication rate limiting consistent authentication rate limiting consistent authentication rate limiting all that stuff documentation for all that stuff documentation for all that stuff documentation for everybody to use analytics across what's everybody to use analytics across what's everybody to use analytics across what's going on across the whole Enterprise and going on across the whole Enterprise and going on across the whole Enterprise and so that's kind of the two primary use so that's kind of the two primary use so that's kind of the two primary use cases of the product so is it about cases of the product so is it about cases of the product so is it about responsibility like what I should be in responsibility like what I should be in responsibility like what I should be in the business of in my case making blood the business of in my case making blood the business of in my case making blood sugar apis and authentication

sugar apis and authentication sugar apis and authentication authorization logging you know as kind authorization logging you know as kind authorization logging you know as kind of the aspect oriented programming the of the aspect oriented programming the of the aspect oriented programming the the the the slice the horizontal slice the the the slice the horizontal slice the the the slice the horizontal slice over my vertical it could end up being over my vertical it could end up being over my vertical it could end up being 60 70% of my code but it's just not my 60 70% of my code but it's just not my 60 70% of my code but it's just not my expertise that's not what I want to expertise that's not what I want to expertise that's not what I want to focus on you are not focusing on your focus on you are not focusing on your focus on you are not focusing on your business value or you know whatever the business value or you know whatever the business value or you know whatever the value is you're trying to provide your value is you're trying to provide your value is you're trying to provide your API you're wasting time there I think I API you're wasting time there I think I API you're wasting time there I think I think a company I really admired that think a company I really admired that think a company I really admired that did a good job of this was orth zero you did a good job of this was orth zero you did a good job of this was orth zero you know the identity company MH when they know the identity company MH when they know the identity company MH when they started and you know we we both know the started and you know we we both know the started and you know we we both know the founders of that that company when they founders of that that company when they founders of that that company when they started small businesses weren't using started small businesses weren't using started small businesses weren't using they were just using open source and now they were just using open source and now they were just using open source and now 95% I I talk to a lot of startups every 95% I I talk to a lot of startups every 95% I I talk to a lot of startups every day 95% of them are using aler or day 95% of them are using aler or day 95% of them are using aler or something similar because it just makes something similar because it just makes something similar because it just makes sense like don't build this stuff sense like don't build this stuff sense like don't build this stuff yourself you know it's actually more yourself you know it's actually more yourself you know it's actually more much more cost- effective to find a cost much more cost- effective to find a cost much more cost- effective to find a cost effective Cloud solution where you don't effective Cloud solution where you don't effective Cloud solution where you don't write that code it's managed for you write that code it's managed for you write that code it's managed for you it's security sensitive you'll save a it's security sensitive you'll save a it's security sensitive you'll save a lot more time you'll be more productive lot more time you'll be more productive lot more time you'll be more productive and you can put your engineers working and you can put your engineers working and you can put your engineers working on something that really matters that's on something that really matters that's on something that really matters that's going to differentiate you in the going to differentiate you in the going to differentiate you in the market okay so I'm going to keep using market okay so I'm going to keep using market okay so I'm going to keep using my blood sugar API as the example my blood sugar API as the example my blood sugar API as the example because it's the one I have it uses open because it's the one I have it uses open because it's the one I have it uses open API it you know Swagger and it's an API it you know Swagger and it's an API it you know Swagger and it's an understood one it exists in one place it understood one it exists in one place it understood one it exists in one place it exists in a data center in Chicago but exists in a data center in Chicago but exists in a data center in Chicago but zupo you're basically running that zupo you're basically running that zupo you're basically running that Gateway on the edge which means you know Gateway on the edge which means you know Gateway on the edge which means you know hundreds of data centers around the hundreds of data centers around the hundreds of data centers around the world the goal there being within you world the goal there being within you world the goal there being within you know what I assume this speed of light know what I assume this speed of light know what I assume this speed of light you know some small number of you know some small number of you know some small number of milliseconds to anybody on the planet milliseconds to anybody on the planet milliseconds to anybody on the planet Are You caching then you're acting as a Are You caching then you're acting as a Are You caching then you're acting as a proxy and then how do you identify proxy and then how do you identify proxy and then how do you identify whether my blood sugar should be cached whether my blood sugar should be cached whether my blood sugar should be cached or not so we sort of leave that to you or not so we sort of leave that to you or not so we sort of leave that to you we the caching is definitely an option

we the caching is definitely an option we the caching is definitely an option so you know that when you deploy zupo so you know that when you deploy zupo so you know that when you deploy zupo within about 6 seconds typically always within about 6 seconds typically always within about 6 seconds typically always under 20 seconds we deploy you to 300 under 20 seconds we deploy you to 300 under 20 seconds we deploy you to 300 data centers around the world and the data centers around the world and the data centers around the world and the tagline is you know within within 50 tagline is you know within within 50 tagline is you know within within 50 millisecs of every human on earth except millisecs of every human on earth except millisecs of every human on earth except the ISS and uh Antarctica I don't think the ISS and uh Antarctica I don't think the ISS and uh Antarctica I don't think there's too many customers there so well there's too many customers there so well there's too many customers there so well NASA might not show up both of the NASA might not show up both of the NASA might not show up both of the people down there who are needing people down there who are needing people down there who are needing exactly they they could just wait a exactly they they could just wait a exactly they they could just wait a little bit longer for their for their little bit longer for their for their little bit longer for their for their call caching is hard you know it's like call caching is hard you know it's like call caching is hard you know it's like one famously one of the two hard things one famously one of the two hard things one famously one of the two hard things about software naming and cash about software naming and cash about software naming and cash invalidation right and off by one errors invalidation right and off by one errors invalidation right and off by one errors and off by one errors I actually think and off by one errors I actually think and off by one errors I actually think prioritization is the hardest thing in prioritization is the hardest thing in prioritization is the hardest thing in software so you know that's because I software so you know that's because I software so you know that's because I was a product manager for a long time was a product manager for a long time was a product manager for a long time the the caching thing is hard what we've the the caching thing is hard what we've the the caching thing is hard what we've done with zupo is make it super done with zupo is make it super done with zupo is make it super programmable so as an engineer you can programmable so as an engineer you can programmable so as an engineer you can come in and use your developer come in and use your developer come in and use your developer superpowers and write code very easily superpowers and write code very easily superpowers and write code very easily that feels native to you so if you've that feels native to you so if you've that feels native to you so if you've ever written like a what do you call ever written like a what do you call ever written like a what do you call them in in asp.net like web handlers and them in in asp.net like web handlers and them in in asp.net like web handlers and the middle word pieces you can write it the middle word pieces you can write it the middle word pieces you can write it feels very similar to writing that and feels very similar to writing that and feels very similar to writing that and it's all using Open Standards like it's all using Open Standards like it's all using Open Standards like response and request that you would use response and request that you would use response and request that you would use in the browser we make it insanely easy in the browser we make it insanely easy in the browser we make it insanely easy to program it and you can use our cache to program it and you can use our cache to program it and you can use our cache programmatically so if you want to do programmatically so if you want to do programmatically so if you want to do anything smart there about deciding when anything smart there about deciding when anything smart there about deciding when or not to cach that or fancy expiration or not to cach that or fancy expiration or not to cach that or fancy expiration you can write that typically in a couple you can write that typically in a couple you can write that typically in a couple of lines of of lines of of lines of typescript and you made that comment typescript and you made that comment typescript and you made that comment before about rate limiting right being before about rate limiting right being before about rate limiting right being in someone else's poorly written for in someone else's poorly written for in someone else's poorly written for Loop are you in that case absorbing the Loop are you in that case absorbing the Loop are you in that case absorbing the traffic and preventing the traffic from traffic and preventing the traffic from traffic and preventing the traffic from actually hitting the origin you're actually hitting the origin you're actually hitting the origin you're trying to basically say you know hey trying to basically say you know hey trying to basically say you know hey this person's API key they're only a this person's API key they're only a this person's API key they're only a silver customer not a platinum customer silver customer not a platinum customer silver customer not a platinum customer so they're only allowed to hit us five

so they're only allowed to hit us five so they're only allowed to hit us five times a second y or whatever I assume times a second y or whatever I assume times a second y or whatever I assume those rules are totally flexible yeah those rules are totally flexible yeah those rules are totally flexible yeah EXA exactly so we have some built-in EXA exactly so we have some built-in EXA exactly so we have some built-in like you can just set a simple policy like you can just set a simple policy like you can just set a simple policy that's like you know 500 requests a that's like you know 500 requests a that's like you know 500 requests a minute or whatever for per user or per minute or whatever for per user or per minute or whatever for per user or per IP address and you can layer those IP address and you can layer those IP address and you can layer those policies to give you different types of policies to give you different types of policies to give you different types of protection but because of that protection but because of that protection but because of that programmability one of the cool things programmability one of the cool things programmability one of the cool things that our customers really like about that our customers really like about that our customers really like about that is dynamic rate limiting so in a that is dynamic rate limiting so in a that is dynamic rate limiting so in a couple of lines of script you can say couple of lines of script you can say couple of lines of script you can say you know well what is this a premium you know well what is this a premium you know well what is this a premium customer a free customer how do you want customer a free customer how do you want customer a free customer how do you want the rate limited to or the quota engine the rate limited to or the quota engine the rate limited to or the quota engine Etc to respond and deal with that and Etc to respond and deal with that and Etc to respond and deal with that and that's a big differentiator that's that's a big differentiator that's that's a big differentiator that's actually one of our most you wouldn't actually one of our most you wouldn't actually one of our most you wouldn't know it's quite simple to use but our know it's quite simple to use but our know it's quite simple to use but our most complicated pieces of most complicated pieces of most complicated pieces of infrastructure because building a infrastructure because building a infrastructure because building a distributed synchronized rate limiter distributed synchronized rate limiter distributed synchronized rate limiter that works well across 300 data senses that works well across 300 data senses that works well across 300 data senses is it's quite a challenge it's quite a is it's quite a challenge it's quite a is it's quite a challenge it's quite a thing but yeah it's certainly a very thing but yeah it's certainly a very thing but yeah it's certainly a very popular feature yeah that's a really popular feature yeah that's a really popular feature yeah that's a really interesting perspective because you're interesting perspective because you're interesting perspective because you're right if someone is trying to be evil uh right if someone is trying to be evil uh right if someone is trying to be evil uh or naughty in some way uh whether they or naughty in some way uh whether they or naughty in some way uh whether they be inadvertently naughty in the poorly be inadvertently naughty in the poorly be inadvertently naughty in the poorly written for Loop or they're consciously written for Loop or they're consciously written for Loop or they're consciously trying to do it they're going to be trying to do it they're going to be trying to do it they're going to be bouncing all over the place hit in bouncing all over the place hit in bouncing all over the place hit in different zones and you still want your different zones and you still want your different zones and you still want your weight living weight living to work weight living weight living to work weight living weight living to work whether they're appearing from different whether they're appearing from different whether they're appearing from different locations or not yeah so we actually locations or not yeah so we actually locations or not yeah so we actually have a couple of modes there to make have a couple of modes there to make have a couple of modes there to make this very flexible for folks now look we this very flexible for folks now look we this very flexible for folks now look we are competing against speed of light are competing against speed of light are competing against speed of light that is a thing I'm working on it but we that is a thing I'm working on it but we that is a thing I'm working on it but we have not solved that yet so there's some have not solved that yet so there's some have not solved that yet so there's some time for these things to synchronize and time for these things to synchronize and time for these things to synchronize and I can't guarantee you know we we choose I can't guarantee you know we we choose I can't guarantee you know we we choose failed fast so we will let an extra call failed fast so we will let an extra call failed fast so we will let an extra call go through we don't want to deny you go through we don't want to deny you go through we don't want to deny you know it's bad to take your API down if know it's bad to take your API down if know it's bad to take your API down if you don't need to you don't want to do you don't need to you don't want to do you don't need to you don't want to do that but it's very fast actually the

that but it's very fast actually the that but it's very fast actually the synchronization so we can keep people in synchronization so we can keep people in synchronization so we can keep people in line but the other thing we do to line but the other thing we do to line but the other thing we do to actually improve the latency of your API actually improve the latency of your API actually improve the latency of your API we have two modes of rate limiting one we have two modes of rate limiting one we have two modes of rate limiting one is synchronous so we will block the call is synchronous so we will block the call is synchronous so we will block the call doing anything until we've completed the doing anything until we've completed the doing anything until we've completed the check to see if this rate limit is good check to see if this rate limit is good check to see if this rate limit is good it's very fast it's like milliseconds it's very fast it's like milliseconds it's very fast it's like milliseconds but we have an async mode as well where but we have an async mode as well where but we have an async mode as well where if this data center is seen that this if this data center is seen that this if this data center is seen that this particular key is blocked before we will particular key is blocked before we will particular key is blocked before we will immediately say no but if we've not what immediately say no but if we've not what immediately say no but if we've not what we'll do is we'll let the request at the we'll do is we'll let the request at the we'll do is we'll let the request at the back end start to proceed whilst we do back end start to proceed whilst we do back end start to proceed whilst we do the rate limiting check removing any the rate limiting check removing any the rate limiting check removing any additional latency and then only if we additional latency and then only if we additional latency and then only if we get the rate limit checked back will we get the rate limit checked back will we get the rate limit checked back will we sort of block out that data center for sort of block out that data center for sort of block out that data center for that user and um we can hold back the that user and um we can hold back the that user and um we can hold back the response or send it so the downside for response or send it so the downside for response or send it so the downside for you is you might get a couple of extra you is you might get a couple of extra you is you might get a couple of extra requests but it's probably fine but you requests but it's probably fine but you requests but it's probably fine but you don't get latency on every single don't get latency on every single don't get latency on every single request that your customer is doing request that your customer is doing request that your customer is doing which is what you want right so we think which is what you want right so we think which is what you want right so we think we spent a lot of time thinking about we spent a lot of time thinking about we spent a lot of time thinking about Edge design patterns for Edge compute Edge design patterns for Edge compute Edge design patterns for Edge compute and how to build an edge Gateway we had and how to build an edge Gateway we had and how to build an edge Gateway we had to build this thing from the ground up to build this thing from the ground up to build this thing from the ground up by the way like most gateways are kind by the way like most gateways are kind by the way like most gateways are kind of you know engine X or Envoy under the of you know engine X or Envoy under the of you know engine X or Envoy under the hood I was built from from scratch I hood I was built from from scratch I hood I was built from from scratch I have a couple of Open Source packages have a couple of Open Source packages have a couple of Open Source packages and so but I want to move to standards and so but I want to move to standards and so but I want to move to standards because open API is a standard and because open API is a standard and because open API is a standard and whether you were building with soap as I whether you were building with soap as I whether you were building with soap as I was many many years ago right or any ID was many many years ago right or any ID was many many years ago right or any ID any interface definition language you any interface definition language you any interface definition language you know you're effectively describing a know you're effectively describing a know you're effectively describing a lollipop this was the way we used to do lollipop this was the way we used to do lollipop this was the way we used to do this if you recall for those that of this if you recall for those that of this if you recall for those that of course can't see us because we're on an course can't see us because we're on an course can't see us because we're on an audio medium you would basically draw a audio medium you would basically draw a audio medium you would basically draw a square and you'd say that's the blood square and you'd say that's the blood square and you'd say that's the blood sugar database or that's the library

sugar database or that's the library sugar database or that's the library database and you draw a lollipop and the database and you draw a lollipop and the database and you draw a lollipop and the lollipop was the interface by which you lollipop was the interface by which you lollipop was the interface by which you would talk to that black box and the would talk to that black box and the would talk to that black box and the great thing about an API is that you great thing about an API is that you great thing about an API is that you can't see what's inside because it can't see what's inside because it can't see what's inside because it doesn't matter what's inside as long as doesn't matter what's inside as long as doesn't matter what's inside as long as you can access it through that handle you can access it through that handle you can access it through that handle through that lollipop open API is that through that lollipop open API is that through that lollipop open API is that that lollipop now if I wrote my own open that lollipop now if I wrote my own open that lollipop now if I wrote my own open API specification my own document and API specification my own document and API specification my own document and then I go and I get a an API proxy like then I go and I get a an API proxy like then I go and I get a an API proxy like zupo you might make a change to it you zupo you might make a change to it you zupo you might make a change to it you might improve it you might expand on it might improve it you might expand on it might improve it you might expand on it which one then becomes the authoritative which one then becomes the authoritative which one then becomes the authoritative source which one is real because from source which one is real because from source which one is real because from the point of view of the outside yours the point of view of the outside yours the point of view of the outside yours is authoritative but as me as the is authoritative but as me as the is authoritative but as me as the programmer I wrote it so mine should be programmer I wrote it so mine should be programmer I wrote it so mine should be authoritative that's a great question authoritative that's a great question authoritative that's a great question actually so when we launched zupo we did actually so when we launched zupo we did actually so when we launched zupo we did what every other Gateway does and we had what every other Gateway does and we had what every other Gateway does and we had some sort of proprietary storage some sort of proprietary storage some sort of proprietary storage mechanism for What defined the routes in mechanism for What defined the routes in mechanism for What defined the routes in the Gateway and from my time actually the Gateway and from my time actually the Gateway and from my time actually working on Azure API management I wasn't working on Azure API management I wasn't working on Azure API management I wasn't really a fan of open API I think it was really a fan of open API I think it was really a fan of open API I think it was called Swagger back then we were in called Swagger back then we were in called Swagger back then we were in version two it's kind of a mess there version two it's kind of a mess there version two it's kind of a mess there was a lot of competition from other was a lot of competition from other was a lot of competition from other formats like raml I think was one of formats like raml I think was one of formats like raml I think was one of them and blueprint and and so I didn't them and blueprint and and so I didn't them and blueprint and and so I didn't come into it excited about open API but come into it excited about open API but come into it excited about open API but then I just kept bumping into this is then I just kept bumping into this is then I just kept bumping into this is what everybody was using now you know what everybody was using now you know what everybody was using now you know thanks to this motion of the idea of thanks to this motion of the idea of thanks to this motion of the idea of like shift left if you're familiar with like shift left if you're familiar with like shift left if you're familiar with with that term and and design first with that term and and design first with that term and and design first where you kind of design the API first where you kind of design the API first where you kind of design the API first and we started to realize this was a and we started to realize this was a and we started to realize this was a really important part of people's really important part of people's really important part of people's workflow so we rewrote a big part of the workflow so we rewrote a big part of the workflow so we rewrote a big part of the gateway to make it natively powered by gateway to make it natively powered by gateway to make it natively powered by open API and one of the key things we open API and one of the key things we open API and one of the key things we tried to solve with that is this tried to solve with that is this tried to solve with that is this workflow issue of like what's the master workflow issue of like what's the master workflow issue of like what's the master document so there's kind of two ways

document so there's kind of two ways document so there's kind of two ways people do it essentially the way zupo people do it essentially the way zupo people do it essentially the way zupo works is you take your standard open API works is you take your standard open API works is you take your standard open API doc you can import it into zupo and then doc you can import it into zupo and then doc you can import it into zupo and then as you change things about how you want as you change things about how you want as you change things about how you want us to handle it we will add extensions us to handle it we will add extensions us to handle it we will add extensions so so fortunately open API is an so so fortunately open API is an so so fortunately open API is an extensible extensible extensible specification we will add extensions you specification we will add extensions you specification we will add extensions you can then if you like make zupo your can then if you like make zupo your can then if you like make zupo your master document because other tools will master document because other tools will master document because other tools will just ignore those extensions because just ignore those extensions because just ignore those extensions because it's not familiar with them but we also it's not familiar with them but we also it's not familiar with them but we also built another flow if you say using like built another flow if you say using like built another flow if you say using like a tool like stoplight or you know a tool like stoplight or you know a tool like stoplight or you know Swagger Hub to edit your open API or Swagger Hub to edit your open API or Swagger Hub to edit your open API or you're doing it manually you can you're doing it manually you can you're doing it manually you can continue to do that and then if you come continue to do that and then if you come continue to do that and then if you come back and try to import the document back and try to import the document back and try to import the document again what we'll do is we'll do a smart again what we'll do is we'll do a smart again what we'll do is we'll do a smart diff and we'll keep all the extensions diff and we'll keep all the extensions diff and we'll keep all the extensions but we'll overwrite everything else that but we'll overwrite everything else that but we'll overwrite everything else that you bring in and we can match on path or you bring in and we can match on path or you bring in and we can match on path or operation Etc so you know actually a operation Etc so you know actually a operation Etc so you know actually a customers that do design first they Rave customers that do design first they Rave customers that do design first they Rave about this capability and just sort of about this capability and just sort of about this capability and just sort of how smooth it is compared to what how smooth it is compared to what how smooth it is compared to what they're seeing in a lot of other they're seeing in a lot of other they're seeing in a lot of other gateways is this kind of one-off gateways is this kind of one-off gateways is this kind of one-off translation into the proprietary format translation into the proprietary format translation into the proprietary format so the fact we're natively powered for so the fact we're natively powered for so the fact we're natively powered for it I think is a bit of a superpow for it I think is a bit of a superpow for it I think is a bit of a superpow for open API users nice so then you're using open API users nice so then you're using open API users nice so then you're using like vendor extensions to extend the like vendor extensions to extend the like vendor extensions to extend the spec without overwriting what I think of spec without overwriting what I think of spec without overwriting what I think of as my source of Truth exactly that as my source of Truth exactly that as my source of Truth exactly that exactly that yeah that's cool because exactly that yeah that's cool because exactly that yeah that's cool because you know whenever you you have a you know whenever you you have a you know whenever you you have a relationship with a vendor you're going relationship with a vendor you're going relationship with a vendor you're going to always feel squishy about are they to always feel squishy about are they to always feel squishy about are they taking over I like to do interface first taking over I like to do interface first taking over I like to do interface first I like to design the the open a by specs I like to design the the open a by specs I like to design the the open a by specs but other people might just want to but other people might just want to but other people might just want to generate them by the shape of whatever generate them by the shape of whatever generate them by the shape of whatever their implementation is so having choice their implementation is so having choice their implementation is so having choice to do to do both of those is pretty cool to do to do both of those is pretty cool to do to do both of those is pretty cool we're not in the we're not competing to we're not in the we're not competing to we're not in the we're not competing to be like the best open API design tool

be like the best open API design tool be like the best open API design tool but we do have a design a route designer but we do have a design a route designer but we do have a design a route designer we call it in the product and so even we call it in the product and so even we call it in the product and so even our customers that aren't using open API our customers that aren't using open API our customers that aren't using open API when they come in and use that design when they come in and use that design when they come in and use that design tool they're they don't know it but tool they're they don't know it but tool they're they don't know it but they're building an open API document they're building an open API document they're building an open API document and some of them found the joy of like and some of them found the joy of like and some of them found the joy of like cool I've actually got started with open cool I've actually got started with open cool I've actually got started with open API and now I'm able to because you can API and now I'm able to because you can API and now I'm able to because you can use open API for a lot of things you use open API for a lot of things you use open API for a lot of things you know I call it the Wheel of Fortune know I call it the Wheel of Fortune know I call it the Wheel of Fortune actually like it's good for Designing actually like it's good for Designing actually like it's good for Designing but it actually enables you to do but it actually enables you to do but it actually enables you to do Mocking and automate testing there's Mocking and automate testing there's Mocking and automate testing there's lots and lots of like capabilities that lots and lots of like capabilities that lots and lots of like capabilities that light up if you kind of anchor your API light up if you kind of anchor your API light up if you kind of anchor your API world around a standard like open API world around a standard like open API world around a standard like open API that's the only one I would do now to be that's the only one I would do now to be that's the only one I would do now to be honest the others have mostly faded away honest the others have mostly faded away honest the others have mostly faded away so getting people into that world is so getting people into that world is so getting people into that world is sort of a thing we talk about a lot when sort of a thing we talk about a lot when sort of a thing we talk about a lot when we go to conferences we we try and get we go to conferences we we try and get we go to conferences we we try and get folks excited about like getting the folks excited about like getting the folks excited about like getting the most out of open API in general you most out of open API in general you most out of open API in general you worked on Azure you know 10 years ago worked on Azure you know 10 years ago worked on Azure you know 10 years ago eight years ago but but how could you eight years ago but but how could you eight years ago but but how could you make an API Gateway that is good on make an API Gateway that is good on make an API Gateway that is good on every cloud yeah actually what we do every cloud yeah actually what we do every cloud yeah actually what we do there is we run on CD and Edge networks there is we run on CD and Edge networks there is we run on CD and Edge networks so when you deploy zupo there is none of so when you deploy zupo there is none of so when you deploy zupo there is none of this like um region anxiety I call it this like um region anxiety I call it this like um region anxiety I call it where like do I want to be in Us East or where like do I want to be in Us East or where like do I want to be in Us East or do I want to be here or do I want to pay do I want to be here or do I want to pay do I want to be here or do I want to pay twice and be in this place you go to twice and be in this place you go to twice and be in this place you go to zupo you do a commit to git so we're zupo you do a commit to git so we're zupo you do a commit to git so we're gitops powered we work like verell and gitops powered we work like verell and gitops powered we work like verell and netlify within in under 20 seconds of netlify within in under 20 seconds of netlify within in under 20 seconds of you making that commit we will deploy a you making that commit we will deploy a you making that commit we will deploy a new environment for you you can have new environment for you you can have new environment for you you can have unlimited environments so you know some unlimited environments so you know some unlimited environments so you know some of our customers have 250 concurrent of our customers have 250 concurrent of our customers have 250 concurrent environments like previews that they environments like previews that they environments like previews that they just spin up for a little minute and just spin up for a little minute and just spin up for a little minute and then take down and that is deployed to then take down and that is deployed to then take down and that is deployed to 300 data centers around the world and 300 data centers around the world and 300 data centers around the world and those data centers are everywhere those data centers are everywhere those data centers are everywhere there's one next to me right here in there's one next to me right here in there's one next to me right here in Seattle there's there's one in Oregon Seattle there's there's one in Oregon Seattle there's there's one in Oregon there's always one near all the major

there's always one near all the major there's always one near all the major data centers and they're connected via data centers and they're connected via data centers and they're connected via very fat pipes from these sort of CDN very fat pipes from these sort of CDN very fat pipes from these sort of CDN networks like Cloud FL and fastly and so networks like Cloud FL and fastly and so networks like Cloud FL and fastly and so on so when you deploy you deploy to one on so when you deploy you deploy to one on so when you deploy you deploy to one region you deploy to Earth we like to region you deploy to Earth we like to region you deploy to Earth we like to say you are everywhere all at once all say you are everywhere all at once all say you are everywhere all at once all of the time interesting and the pricing of the time interesting and the pricing of the time interesting and the pricing would be the same because like I imagine would be the same because like I imagine would be the same because like I imagine there being some kind of a slider Bar there being some kind of a slider Bar there being some kind of a slider Bar connected to my credit card and you know connected to my credit card and you know connected to my credit card and you know I'm going to lose no matter what happens I'm going to lose no matter what happens I'm going to lose no matter what happens ironically if you want to run on less ironically if you want to run on less ironically if you want to run on less data senses I'll push you into the data senses I'll push you into the data senses I'll push you into the Enterprise plan and charge you a little Enterprise plan and charge you a little Enterprise plan and charge you a little bit more but uh yeah no being everywhere bit more but uh yeah no being everywhere bit more but uh yeah no being everywhere is being everywhere is our cheapest is being everywhere is our cheapest is being everywhere is our cheapest option our free our free customers have option our free our free customers have option our free our free customers have insane High availability and are in 300 insane High availability and are in 300 insane High availability and are in 300 data censers around the world okay so data censers around the world okay so data censers around the world okay so being in other data centers is cool but being in other data centers is cool but being in other data centers is cool but I've had people on the show lately who I've had people on the show lately who I've had people on the show lately who are starting to move away from the cloud are starting to move away from the cloud are starting to move away from the cloud uh I had a great conversation with the uh I had a great conversation with the uh I had a great conversation with the folks from uh story graph which is a folks from uh story graph which is a folks from uh story graph which is a good reads compete it's a really great good reads compete it's a really great good reads compete it's a really great thing called story graph and they moved thing called story graph and they moved thing called story graph and they moved off the cloud entirely and are now on off the cloud entirely and are now on off the cloud entirely and are now on bare metal yeah which is there's a bit bare metal yeah which is there's a bit bare metal yeah which is there's a bit of a bare metal Renaissance going on and of a bare metal Renaissance going on and of a bare metal Renaissance going on and uh they and I are fans of wire guard I'm uh they and I are fans of wire guard I'm uh they and I are fans of wire guard I'm actually a fan of tail scale and I actually a fan of tail scale and I actually a fan of tail scale and I invest in tail scale as a point of note invest in tail scale as a point of note invest in tail scale as a point of note so what if I want an API Gateway but I so what if I want an API Gateway but I so what if I want an API Gateway but I also want to run it on bare metal and I also want to run it on bare metal and I also want to run it on bare metal and I want to have have it in my house so dhh want to have have it in my house so dhh want to have have it in my house so dhh is it Ruby guy and has just taken his is it Ruby guy and has just taken his is it Ruby guy and has just taken his company um base camp and so on off off company um base camp and so on off off company um base camp and so on off off Cloud a bunch of our customers running Cloud a bunch of our customers running Cloud a bunch of our customers running on B metal you mentioned wiard we on B metal you mentioned wiard we on B metal you mentioned wiard we actually have that's our solution so we actually have that's our solution so we actually have that's our solution so we have a really great hybrid solution for have a really great hybrid solution for have a really great hybrid solution for zupo where we call it secure tunneling zupo where we call it secure tunneling zupo where we call it secure tunneling you installed an agent in your on-prem you installed an agent in your on-prem you installed an agent in your on-prem data center or in your your AWS VPC or data center or in your your AWS VPC or data center or in your your AWS VPC or your Azure VPC that punches out using

your Azure VPC that punches out using your Azure VPC that punches out using wire guard directly to zupo it's our wire guard directly to zupo it's our wire guard directly to zupo it's our most secure option it's used by some of most secure option it's used by some of most secure option it's used by some of our you know biggest customers and it our you know biggest customers and it our you know biggest customers and it again creates a sort great management again creates a sort great management again creates a sort great management separation actually because one of the separation actually because one of the separation actually because one of the things you want is you typically want things you want is you typically want things you want is you typically want your SE Ops Team at a large company your SE Ops Team at a large company your SE Ops Team at a large company managing the connectivity so they'd look managing the connectivity so they'd look managing the connectivity so they'd look after the subscription that houses the after the subscription that houses the after the subscription that houses the tunnel you don't want your setups people tunnel you don't want your setups people tunnel you don't want your setups people dealing with changes to the Gateway like dealing with changes to the Gateway like dealing with changes to the Gateway like they don't care about the end points and they don't care about the end points and they don't care about the end points and you know what the rate limiting is set you know what the rate limiting is set you know what the rate limiting is set to that's something you want your API to that's something you want your API to that's something you want your API Engineers to deal with and so that Engineers to deal with and so that Engineers to deal with and so that separation actually is also really nice separation actually is also really nice separation actually is also really nice just from a sort of architectural just from a sort of architectural just from a sort of architectural management deployment at large management deployment at large management deployment at large Enterprises but yeah we have lots of Enterprises but yeah we have lots of Enterprises but yeah we have lots of customers from private data center customers from private data center customers from private data center running on equinix and and so on the running on equinix and and so on the running on equinix and and so on the whole spread really so the back end whole spread really so the back end whole spread really so the back end doesn't really matter like sometimes doesn't really matter like sometimes doesn't really matter like sometimes you'll go to a a website of a you know a you'll go to a a website of a you know a you'll go to a a website of a you know a company you'll go oh I wonder if it company you'll go oh I wonder if it company you'll go oh I wonder if it supports erlang or I wonder if it does supports erlang or I wonder if it does supports erlang or I wonder if it does my obscure thing you know like or all my obscure thing you know like or all my obscure thing you know like or all looking they won't have net or they looking they won't have net or they looking they won't have net or they won't have go and then I'll feel sad won't have go and then I'll feel sad won't have go and then I'll feel sad that I can't have my you know my thing that I can't have my you know my thing that I can't have my you know my thing written in my language but I presume written in my language but I presume written in my language but I presume that since everything is HTTP and Open that since everything is HTTP and Open that since everything is HTTP and Open Standards you don't really care no I Standards you don't really care no I Standards you don't really care no I mean not I don't want to like shoot mean not I don't want to like shoot mean not I don't want to like shoot ourselves in the foot but I mean do ourselves in the foot but I mean do ourselves in the foot but I mean do anything is the the Gateway is anything is the the Gateway is anything is the the Gateway is programmable but you have to write that programmable but you have to write that programmable but you have to write that in typescript today not we don't do. net in typescript today not we don't do. net in typescript today not we don't do. net today but pretty easy it's pretty easy today but pretty easy it's pretty easy today but pretty easy it's pretty easy but yeah no the actual API itself can be but yeah no the actual API itself can be but yeah no the actual API itself can be written anything as you said as long as written anything as you said as long as written anything as you said as long as it does http today we'll do sockets in it does http today we'll do sockets in it does http today we'll do sockets in the future but for now it's the future but for now it's the future but for now it's HTTP so I would say and and I want to I HTTP so I would say and and I want to I HTTP so I would say and and I want to I want to you know I have to be a good want to you know I have to be a good want to you know I have to be a good interviewer so I want to I want to push interviewer so I want to I want to push interviewer so I want to I want to push zupo is not a name that people might be

zupo is not a name that people might be zupo is not a name that people might be familiar with because you are a you know familiar with because you are a you know familiar with because you are a you know a startup or a smaller company you're a startup or a smaller company you're a startup or a smaller company you're not Google Cloud logging you're not data not Google Cloud logging you're not data not Google Cloud logging you're not data dog dog dog yeah how do you have a company that is yeah how do you have a company that is yeah how do you have a company that is of a middle size and then work with of a middle size and then work with of a middle size and then work with these other ones is it about plugins is these other ones is it about plugins is these other ones is it about plugins is it about like making sure that you it about like making sure that you it about like making sure that you support other vendors for example for support other vendors for example for support other vendors for example for live logging and things like that I mean live logging and things like that I mean live logging and things like that I mean that's exactly right so and we think that's exactly right so and we think that's exactly right so and we think that's a better solution honestly like that's a better solution honestly like that's a better solution honestly like you you want all your logs from this you you want all your logs from this you you want all your logs from this thing in one place we have analytics thing in one place we have analytics thing in one place we have analytics built into zupo but we don't think it's built into zupo but we don't think it's built into zupo but we don't think it's sort of a selling feature if you're a sort of a selling feature if you're a sort of a selling feature if you're a bigger company and you're using data dog bigger company and you're using data dog bigger company and you're using data dog just use one of our Integrations and just use one of our Integrations and just use one of our Integrations and we'll start pumping the data over there we'll start pumping the data over there we'll start pumping the data over there that is the thing customers Really Love that is the thing customers Really Love that is the thing customers Really Love Actually with zupo is just how slick our Actually with zupo is just how slick our Actually with zupo is just how slick our Integrations with sumo logic and DIN Integrations with sumo logic and DIN Integrations with sumo logic and DIN trce and you know all of these platforms trce and you know all of these platforms trce and you know all of these platforms are and the the sort of the single pane are and the the sort of the single pane are and the the sort of the single pane of glass view they have of the whole of glass view they have of the whole of glass view they have of the whole ecosystem you know we have I forgot the ecosystem you know we have I forgot the ecosystem you know we have I forgot the name of it now but there's a there's a name of it now but there's a there's a name of it now but there's a there's a name for when you have tracing that like name for when you have tracing that like name for when you have tracing that like context tracing through a whole request context tracing through a whole request context tracing through a whole request oh like open Telemetry exactly so we do oh like open Telemetry exactly so we do oh like open Telemetry exactly so we do otel and then there's there's another otel and then there's there's another otel and then there's there's another name for it it's BL I'm blanking on it name for it it's BL I'm blanking on it name for it it's BL I'm blanking on it now unfortunately for for this actual now unfortunately for for this actual now unfortunately for for this actual idea of like context tracing oh idea of like context tracing oh idea of like context tracing oh observability essentially yeah so that's observability essentially yeah so that's observability essentially yeah so that's one of folks they go through a few one of folks they go through a few one of folks they go through a few phases they tend to come to us because phases they tend to come to us because phases they tend to come to us because they love the getop story and the Edge they love the getop story and the Edge they love the getop story and the Edge Story particularly if they're multic Story particularly if they're multic Story particularly if they're multic cloud and honestly most big companies cloud and honestly most big companies cloud and honestly most big companies are multicloud by accident because they are multicloud by accident because they are multicloud by accident because they do an acquisition that's so true you do an acquisition that's so true you do an acquisition that's so true you know pause for a second here because know pause for a second here because know pause for a second here because multicloud sometimes feels like a lie multicloud sometimes feels like a lie multicloud sometimes feels like a lie because some people feel like I feel because some people feel like I feel because some people feel like I feel like they're like we're going to have a like they're like we're going to have a like they're like we're going to have a multicloud solution like what like one multicloud solution like what like one multicloud solution like what like one of the clouds is going to disappear of the clouds is going to disappear of the clouds is going to disappear we're just going to hold our finger on

we're just going to hold our finger on we're just going to hold our finger on the chest piece you know we're not going the chest piece you know we're not going the chest piece you know we're not going to make an actual move here it's not to make an actual move here it's not to make an actual move here it's not that it's they got a new group or they that it's they got a new group or they that it's they got a new group or they hired a didn't Aqua hire an aquad high hired a didn't Aqua hire an aquad high hired a didn't Aqua hire an aquad high and then suddenly they've got AWS and and then suddenly they've got AWS and and then suddenly they've got AWS and Azure and gcp all in the same place it's Azure and gcp all in the same place it's Azure and gcp all in the same place it's not that they would actually want that I not that they would actually want that I not that they would actually want that I mean there's a couple of customers who mean there's a couple of customers who mean there's a couple of customers who lean in so much to high availability lean in so much to high availability lean in so much to high availability they don't want to be dependent on one they don't want to be dependent on one they don't want to be dependent on one Cloud you know like it's rare though and Cloud you know like it's rare though and Cloud you know like it's rare though and it's harder than people think to do that it's harder than people think to do that it's harder than people think to do that like it's very hard but yeah no what like it's very hard but yeah no what like it's very hard but yeah no what we've seen is you know hey we were all we've seen is you know hey we were all we've seen is you know hey we were all in an Azure but then we acquired this in an Azure but then we acquired this in an Azure but then we acquired this company's all in gcp and moving it is company's all in gcp and moving it is company's all in gcp and moving it is just a nightmare so we're not going to just a nightmare so we're not going to just a nightmare so we're not going to do it so now we're multicloud and then do it so now we're multicloud and then do it so now we're multicloud and then they're looking at gateways like look at they're looking at gateways like look at they're looking at gateways like look at this thing oh this is cool this works this thing oh this is cool this works this thing oh this is cool this works for every and they like the experience for every and they like the experience for every and they like the experience yeah um one other thing I wanted to ask yeah um one other thing I wanted to ask yeah um one other thing I wanted to ask you that I've been struggling with with you that I've been struggling with with you that I've been struggling with with my little blood sugar thing is that I've my little blood sugar thing is that I've my little blood sugar thing is that I've got these API keys and they're different got these API keys and they're different got these API keys and they're different ones I'll have like a key for read only ones I'll have like a key for read only ones I'll have like a key for read only and I'll have a key for admin and uh and I'll have a key for admin and uh and I'll have a key for admin and uh sometimes I'll I'll I'll accidentally sometimes I'll I'll I'll accidentally sometimes I'll I'll I'll accidentally leak one of them on a YouTube video so leak one of them on a YouTube video so leak one of them on a YouTube video so I'll be showing my blood sugar thing and I'll be showing my blood sugar thing and I'll be showing my blood sugar thing and then I'll I don't know if some people then I'll I don't know if some people then I'll I don't know if some people have my keys and I've been a little have my keys and I've been a little have my keys and I've been a little concerned about that and I don't really concerned about that and I don't really concerned about that and I don't really know I guess I could go in the logs and know I guess I could go in the logs and know I guess I could go in the logs and start doing some analysis to figure out start doing some analysis to figure out start doing some analysis to figure out if I'm seeing you know unusual behavior if I'm seeing you know unusual behavior if I'm seeing you know unusual behavior on a particular key but if that was on a particular key but if that was on a particular key but if that was going to be thousands of customers I going to be thousands of customers I going to be thousands of customers I could get really abused if just one or could get really abused if just one or could get really abused if just one or two keys made it out into the world like two keys made it out into the world like two keys made it out into the world like a little outbreak monkey yeah so so a little outbreak monkey yeah so so a little outbreak monkey yeah so so definitely analytics is a thing there is definitely analytics is a thing there is definitely analytics is a thing there is like you can so in zupa for example you like you can so in zupa for example you like you can so in zupa for example you can go in look at the the the activity can go in look at the the the activity can go in look at the the the activity from a given user which would map to a from a given user which would map to a from a given user which would map to a key and then you'll see the spread of IP key and then you'll see the spread of IP key and then you'll see the spread of IP addresses and locations and so on and be

addresses and locations and so on and be addresses and locations and so on and be able to Zone in on activity we actually able to Zone in on activity we actually able to Zone in on activity we actually have a fully sort of integrated API key have a fully sort of integrated API key have a fully sort of integrated API key offering where we will generate the keys offering where we will generate the keys offering where we will generate the keys we give users self- sered management of we give users self- sered management of we give users self- sered management of those keys so you don't have to build it those keys so you don't have to build it those keys so you don't have to build it you know so they can roll their key they you know so they can roll their key they you know so they can roll their key they can view analytics for the key the other can view analytics for the key the other can view analytics for the key the other cool thing we did is we leaned in with cool thing we did is we leaned in with cool thing we did is we leaned in with GitHub and did secret scanning on our GitHub and did secret scanning on our GitHub and did secret scanning on our keys so even our free customers get this keys so even our free customers get this keys so even our free customers get this so if if you're a zlo customer you're so if if you're a zlo customer you're so if if you're a zlo customer you're using our API key solution and one of using our API key solution and one of using our API key solution and one of your customers accidentally checks their your customers accidentally checks their your customers accidentally checks their key into GitHub that's how they leak key into GitHub that's how they leak key into GitHub that's how they leak honestly that's how Keys get leaked then honestly that's how Keys get leaked then honestly that's how Keys get leaked then we get notified by GitHub and we will we get notified by GitHub and we will we get notified by GitHub and we will automatically revoke that key send you a automatically revoke that key send you a automatically revoke that key send you a web hook send you a slack message send web hook send you a slack message send web hook send you a slack message send you an email depending on your settings you an email depending on your settings you an email depending on your settings and that's included even our free and that's included even our free and that's included even our free customers take advantage of that so customers take advantage of that so customers take advantage of that so that's what you know API keys I think that's what you know API keys I think that's what you know API keys I think are a really great solution for B2B and are a really great solution for B2B and are a really great solution for B2B and entity sort of entity to entity entity sort of entity to entity entity sort of entity to entity communication on an API if you're doing communication on an API if you're doing communication on an API if you're doing it on behalf of a person you should it on behalf of a person you should it on behalf of a person you should probably be using jot tokens but API probably be using jot tokens but API probably be using jot tokens but API Keys you know all the big apis use them Keys you know all the big apis use them Keys you know all the big apis use them stripe Etc they're great but you do need stripe Etc they're great but you do need stripe Etc they're great but you do need to go a little bit further to get a to go a little bit further to get a to go a little bit further to get a really secure solution and so that's one really secure solution and so that's one really secure solution and so that's one of the things we try and offer out of a of the things we try and offer out of a of the things we try and offer out of a box again so when you said you say the box again so when you said you say the box again so when you said you say the way you pronounced that was jot tokens way you pronounced that was jot tokens way you pronounced that was jot tokens that's JWT that's JWT sorry sorry yeah that's JWT that's JWT sorry sorry yeah that's JWT that's JWT sorry sorry yeah no I want to make sure because you know no I want to make sure because you know no I want to make sure because you know sometimes people don't you know who are sometimes people don't you know who are sometimes people don't you know who are getting into this space they might not getting into this space they might not getting into this space they might not understand why is JWT so important and understand why is JWT so important and understand why is JWT so important and why is it really made a big move in the why is it really made a big move in the why is it really made a big move in the last B three or four years it's gone last B three or four years it's gone last B three or four years it's gone from being like hard to being required from being like hard to being required from being like hard to being required in a standard yeah I mean I I again I in a standard yeah I mean I I again I in a standard yeah I mean I I again I don't think it is required for apis I don't think it is required for apis I don't think it is required for apis I think if you're if if the API think if you're if if the API think if you're if if the API interaction is between an entity or an interaction is between an entity or an interaction is between an entity or an organization sort of machine to machine organization sort of machine to machine organization sort of machine to machine I actually think API Keys is a better

I actually think API Keys is a better I actually think API Keys is a better solution where you have these opaque solution where you have these opaque solution where you have these opaque tokens and there's a bit of a debate tokens and there's a bit of a debate tokens and there's a bit of a debate about well is it as secure that's a bit about well is it as secure that's a bit about well is it as secure that's a bit of a religious discussion because some of a religious discussion because some of a religious discussion because some people would argue that jots are less people would argue that jots are less people would argue that jots are less secure because anyone can pay 64 decrypt secure because anyone can pay 64 decrypt secure because anyone can pay 64 decrypt that token and then look inside and get that token and then look inside and get that token and then look inside and get some sense of what this thing might be some sense of what this thing might be some sense of what this thing might be doing whereas the nice thing about an doing whereas the nice thing about an doing whereas the nice thing about an API key is it's completely opaque jots API key is it's completely opaque jots API key is it's completely opaque jots are harder to revoke in typically are harder to revoke in typically are harder to revoke in typically because you either have to do things because you either have to do things because you either have to do things like revoke the whole certificate which like revoke the whole certificate which like revoke the whole certificate which means everyone's jot suddenly goes bad means everyone's jot suddenly goes bad means everyone's jot suddenly goes bad whereas an API key can be self-managed whereas an API key can be self-managed whereas an API key can be self-managed and revoked jots are great because and revoked jots are great because and revoked jots are great because they're really the part of the open ID they're really the part of the open ID they're really the part of the open ID standard and open ID connect and so you standard and open ID connect and so you standard and open ID connect and so you know I think that's one of the things know I think that's one of the things know I think that's one of the things that's really nice about them and that's that's really nice about them and that's that's really nice about them and that's a much better flow if the the thing a much better flow if the the thing a much better flow if the the thing that's calling your API is a person it's that's calling your API is a person it's that's calling your API is a person it's like you know it's Scott hansome and like you know it's Scott hansome and like you know it's Scott hansome and it's not Hansel minutes which would be it's not Hansel minutes which would be it's not Hansel minutes which would be an organization it's Scott Hanselman and an organization it's Scott Hanselman and an organization it's Scott Hanselman and there might be multiple people at Hansel there might be multiple people at Hansel there might be multiple people at Hansel minutes that are calling as an minutes that are calling as an minutes that are calling as an individual then that's a it's a cleaner individual then that's a it's a cleaner individual then that's a it's a cleaner solution for that I think one of the solution for that I think one of the solution for that I think one of the main things going for honestly is it's main things going for honestly is it's main things going for honestly is it's the standard that's one thing API Keys the standard that's one thing API Keys the standard that's one thing API Keys lack today and I think why people think lack today and I think why people think lack today and I think why people think they might not be as secure I'd take they might not be as secure I'd take they might not be as secure I'd take that fight but um we support jot too by that fight but um we support jot too by that fight but um we support jot too by the way we have lots of customers using the way we have lots of customers using the way we have lots of customers using jot tokens with with zupo but I think jot tokens with with zupo but I think jot tokens with with zupo but I think being part of open connect and just how being part of open connect and just how being part of open connect and just how mature and you know it's the only way to mature and you know it's the only way to mature and you know it's the only way to do it today right if you have any use a do it today right if you have any use a do it today right if you have any use a sign in if someone has got a an API at sign in if someone has got a an API at sign in if someone has got a an API at their you know at their office they're their you know at their office they're their you know at their office they're working on an API and maybe they have working on an API and maybe they have working on an API and maybe they have some of these things they have some some of these things they have some some of these things they have some basic rate limiting they have some basic basic rate limiting they have some basic basic rate limiting they have some basic off they've rolled their own how would off they've rolled their own how would off they've rolled their own how would they know that they need a Gateway in they know that they need a Gateway in they know that they need a Gateway in front of them like what would they be front of them like what would they be front of them like what would they be thinking about and how would they even thinking about and how would they even thinking about and how would they even talk to their boss and say you know talk to their boss and say you know talk to their boss and say you know this's another thing we need we need

this's another thing we need we need this's another thing we need we need another product because bosses are another product because bosses are another product because bosses are always trying to simplify and remove always trying to simplify and remove always trying to simplify and remove products not add new ones yeah I mean if products not add new ones yeah I mean if products not add new ones yeah I mean if they're doing things like rolling their they're doing things like rolling their they're doing things like rolling their own API key authentication you know own API key authentication you know own API key authentication you know that's instantly a bit of a red flag you that's instantly a bit of a red flag you that's instantly a bit of a red flag you know this is hard you got to encrypt know this is hard you got to encrypt know this is hard you got to encrypt stuff there's like a lot of rules to do stuff there's like a lot of rules to do stuff there's like a lot of rules to do this well it's like would you would you this well it's like would you would you this well it's like would you would you roll your own user database password roll your own user database password roll your own user database password store today that I think that's less store today that I think that's less store today that I think that's less common it still happens yeah that's a common it still happens yeah that's a common it still happens yeah that's a good analogy yeah and so so I wouldn't good analogy yeah and so so I wouldn't good analogy yeah and so so I wouldn't do that rate limiting is hard you know do that rate limiting is hard you know do that rate limiting is hard you know the common mistake people make is they the common mistake people make is they the common mistake people make is they use a simple rate limiter that runs on a use a simple rate limiter that runs on a use a simple rate limiter that runs on a per node basis but then guess what per node basis but then guess what per node basis but then guess what happens you set up an happens you set up an happens you set up an autoscaler and an API manager product autoscaler and an API manager product autoscaler and an API manager product that we won't name does this and as that we won't name does this and as that we won't name does this and as nodes get added then you add more rate nodes get added then you add more rate nodes get added then you add more rate limiters so the the count goes up limiters so the the count goes up limiters so the the count goes up proportionally so it's not actually proportionally so it's not actually proportionally so it's not actually working and rate limiting like this working and rate limiting like this working and rate limiting like this stuff is really hard to do well don't stuff is really hard to do well don't stuff is really hard to do well don't waste your time on it you know so I waste your time on it you know so I waste your time on it you know so I think that like as certainly as you think that like as certainly as you think that like as certainly as you start to hit scale you're going to find start to hit scale you're going to find start to hit scale you're going to find like rate limiting a really challenging like rate limiting a really challenging like rate limiting a really challenging problem and then there's other things problem and then there's other things problem and then there's other things you get out of the box when you when you you get out of the box when you when you you get out of the box when you when you start to go into here you know like one start to go into here you know like one start to go into here you know like one of the things we do in ZL a lot with the of the things we do in ZL a lot with the of the things we do in ZL a lot with the programmability is we help people build programmability is we help people build programmability is we help people build very slick custom rolls based access very slick custom rolls based access very slick custom rolls based access control systems that work for them and control systems that work for them and control systems that work for them and it's typically just a couple of lines of it's typically just a couple of lines of it's typically just a couple of lines of code mod that you can put in the Gateway code mod that you can put in the Gateway code mod that you can put in the Gateway and once you've got that abstra like and once you've got that abstra like and once you've got that abstra like your gateway is an abstraction layer we your gateway is an abstraction layer we your gateway is an abstraction layer we we love abstraction layers in software we love abstraction layers in software we love abstraction layers in software generally generally and once you've got generally generally and once you've got generally generally and once you've got that it really does become a bit of a that it really does become a bit of a that it really does become a bit of a superpower as new requirements come up superpower as new requirements come up superpower as new requirements come up to allow you to keep your actual to allow you to keep your actual to allow you to keep your actual front-end API separated somewhat from front-end API separated somewhat from front-end API separated somewhat from the implementation and so you're just the implementation and so you're just the implementation and so you're just going to move a lot faster you're going going to move a lot faster you're going going to move a lot faster you're going to have clearer separation of concerns to have clearer separation of concerns to have clearer separation of concerns and a lot more flexibility in terms of

and a lot more flexibility in terms of and a lot more flexibility in terms of how you do cool and interesting things how you do cool and interesting things how you do cool and interesting things in the gameway very cool well cool and in the gameway very cool well cool and in the gameway very cool well cool and interesting things are exactly what I interesting things are exactly what I interesting things are exactly what I want to do and if I can you know ship an want to do and if I can you know ship an want to do and if I can you know ship an API faster make it easier anything that API faster make it easier anything that API faster make it easier anything that lets me be still like I always joke lets me be still like I always joke lets me be still like I always joke about Hanselman International and like about Hanselman International and like about Hanselman International and like Global it's one guy one guy it's three Global it's one guy one guy it's three Global it's one guy one guy it's three websites you know what I mean but I want websites you know what I mean but I want websites you know what I mean but I want to feel like a 10x developer because a to feel like a 10x developer because a to feel like a 10x developer because a 10x developer is a nonsense statement 10x developer is a nonsense statement 10x developer is a nonsense statement it's the tools that the 10x developer it's the tools that the 10x developer it's the tools that the 10x developer uses that make you feel like wow back in uses that make you feel like wow back in uses that make you feel like wow back in the day we used to hire a consultant to the day we used to hire a consultant to the day we used to hire a consultant to do that and now I can sign up for free do that and now I can sign up for free do that and now I can sign up for free proxy this and in front and then boom proxy this and in front and then boom proxy this and in front and then boom you know what I mean like when I put a you know what I mean like when I put a you know what I mean like when I put a CDN on Hanselman it's it changed the CDN on Hanselman it's it changed the CDN on Hanselman it's it changed the whole game did it wow oh my God it's whole game did it wow oh my God it's whole game did it wow oh my God it's just just a stupid stuff like that hey just just a stupid stuff like that hey just just a stupid stuff like that hey the site's slow in India okay what can I the site's slow in India okay what can I the site's slow in India okay what can I do to fix that I'm one guy well I could do to fix that I'm one guy well I could do to fix that I'm one guy well I could deploy to India but I could also put a deploy to India but I could also put a deploy to India but I could also put a CDN in front of the main parts and now CDN in front of the main parts and now CDN in front of the main parts and now the site's faster you know what I mean the site's faster you know what I mean the site's faster you know what I mean those kind of things tools like that those kind of things tools like that those kind of things tools like that well as you said one additional layer of well as you said one additional layer of well as you said one additional layer of abstraction is indistinguishable from abstraction is indistinguishable from abstraction is indistinguishable from Magic yeah that sounds like you're doing Magic yeah that sounds like you're doing Magic yeah that sounds like you're doing really great stuff at zupo and folks can really great stuff at zupo and folks can really great stuff at zupo and folks can check you out at check you out at check you out at Z Z Z z.com thank you so much Josh twist for z.com thank you so much Josh twist for z.com thank you so much Josh twist for chatting with me today thanks SC great chatting with me today thanks SC great chatting with me today thanks SC great to see you again this has been another to see you again this has been another to see you again this has been another episode of Hansel minutes and we'll see episode of Hansel minutes and we'll see episode of Hansel minutes and we'll see you again next you again next you again next [Music]

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