The Challenges of Deploying IoT at Scale with John Kattenhorn

hi I'm Scott Hanselman this is another hi I'm Scott Hanselman this is another episode of Hanselman it's today I'm episode of Hanselman it's today I'm episode of Hanselman it's today I'm chatting with John kattenhorn he's the chatting with John kattenhorn he's the chatting with John kattenhorn he's the CEO of AA group they were established in CEO of AA group they were established in CEO of AA group they were established in 2012 as a bespoke software Solutions 2012 as a bespoke software Solutions 2012 as a bespoke software Solutions company and he's going to talk to me company and he's going to talk to me company and he's going to talk to me today about the scale problems and why today about the scale problems and why today about the scale problems and why iot why the Internet of Things is hard iot why the Internet of Things is hard iot why the Internet of Things is hard how are you sir hey Scott yeah I'm good how are you sir hey Scott yeah I'm good how are you sir hey Scott yeah I'm good thanks yeah yourself I am very well thanks yeah yourself I am very well thanks yeah yourself I am very well thanks for chatting with me we're going thanks for chatting with me we're going thanks for chatting with me we're going to be chatting about Meadow which is an to be chatting about Meadow which is an to be chatting about Meadow which is an iot product from Wilderness labs and in iot product from Wilderness labs and in iot product from Wilderness labs and in the interest of full disclosure it is the interest of full disclosure it is the interest of full disclosure it is worth noting that I have personally worth noting that I have personally worth noting that I have personally invested uh money in Meadow that's not invested uh money in Meadow that's not invested uh money in Meadow that's not why we're talking it's a coincidence but why we're talking it's a coincidence but why we're talking it's a coincidence but I'm a fan that I've put my own money and I'm a fan that I've put my own money and I'm a fan that I've put my own money and I wanted to make sure that our listeners I wanted to make sure that our listeners I wanted to make sure that our listeners know that I did invest in Wilderness know that I did invest in Wilderness know that I did invest in Wilderness labs and I do think it's a great product labs and I do think it's a great product labs and I do think it's a great product yeah sure um it's same for our company yeah sure um it's same for our company yeah sure um it's same for our company to so we backed the kickstarter program to so we backed the kickstarter program to so we backed the kickstarter program in 2016 I think it was when they first in 2016 I think it was when they first in 2016 I think it was when they first come out we took the corporate I think come out we took the corporate I think come out we took the corporate I think it was like one corporate uh level or it was like one corporate uh level or it was like one corporate uh level or something so we took that primarily something so we took that primarily something so we took that primarily because we were just super excited about because we were just super excited about because we were just super excited about the concept and stuff well that's the concept and stuff well that's the concept and stuff well that's interesting so how I mean think about interesting so how I mean think about interesting so how I mean think about that for a second that's actually a good that for a second that's actually a good that for a second that's actually a good place to start you're the CEO of a like place to start you're the CEO of a like place to start you're the CEO of a like a tech company and you're backing a tech company and you're backing a tech company and you're backing another tech company because you believe another tech company because you believe another tech company because you believe in it so much I does that happen all the in it so much I does that happen all the in it so much I does that happen all the time yeah oh I don't know I think it uh time yeah oh I don't know I think it uh time yeah oh I don't know I think it uh it really fitted with our Synergy so we it really fitted with our Synergy so we it really fitted with our Synergy so we um right from the start we're uh we're um right from the start we're uh we're um right from the start we're uh we're Microsoft first but not Microsoft only Microsoft first but not Microsoft only Microsoft first but not Microsoft only company we decided that that was uh you company we decided that that was uh you company we decided that that was uh you know the the Tex act that we wanted to know the the Tex act that we wanted to know the the Tex act that we wanted to go really deep on and then we we go really deep on and then we we go really deep on and then we we expanded that into net everywhere so we expanded that into net everywhere so we expanded that into net everywhere so we were already looking for ways to move

were already looking for ways to move were already looking for ways to move our iot projects and stuff to sort of a our iot projects and stuff to sort of a our iot projects and stuff to sort of a net stack and we were trying a few net stack and we were trying a few net stack and we were trying a few different things out and it just kind of different things out and it just kind of different things out and it just kind of come up so um yeah we we got really come up so um yeah we we got really come up so um yeah we we got really excited about the sort of full excited about the sort of full excited about the sort of full implementation of donet implementation of donet implementation of donet and yeah we we kind of got in touch with and yeah we we kind of got in touch with and yeah we we kind of got in touch with the guys and and have pushed on the the guys and and have pushed on the the guys and and have pushed on the project uh ever since I've heard from project uh ever since I've heard from project uh ever since I've heard from people in the Consulting space and in people in the Consulting space and in people in the Consulting space and in the startup space that there's I don't the startup space that there's I don't the startup space that there's I don't know if it's a myth or not but they're know if it's a myth or not but they're know if it's a myth or not but they're basically saying that like startups basically saying that like startups basically saying that like startups don't do net and that like you can't run don't do net and that like you can't run don't do net and that like you can't run a whole consulting company on just.net a whole consulting company on just.net a whole consulting company on just.net what do you think about that when you what do you think about that when you what do you think about that when you hear statements like that uh it's never hear statements like that uh it's never hear statements like that uh it's never affected us I mean we've we've been affected us I mean we've we've been affected us I mean we've we've been pretty lucky uh in terms of our pretty lucky uh in terms of our pretty lucky uh in terms of our engagement we have a good reputation for engagement we have a good reputation for engagement we have a good reputation for doing hard things well particularly at doing hard things well particularly at doing hard things well particularly at scale with net some of the latest things scale with net some of the latest things scale with net some of the latest things we've done you know we've had like a we've done you know we've had like a we've done you know we've had like a million live users uh in a game all million live users uh in a game all million live users uh in a game all powered by you know net core I think powered by you know net core I think powered by you know net core I think it's a little bit of um a bit of a it's a little bit of um a bit of a it's a little bit of um a bit of a hangover maybe from the framework days hangover maybe from the framework days hangover maybe from the framework days um like full framework days and you know um like full framework days and you know um like full framework days and you know we haven't quite shed that yet but from we haven't quite shed that yet but from we haven't quite shed that yet but from the meadow perspective you do have to the meadow perspective you do have to the meadow perspective you do have to like reent orientate yourself as a net like reent orientate yourself as a net like reent orientate yourself as a net developer a little bit but uh that's developer a little bit but uh that's developer a little bit but uh that's more to do with you know Hardware more to do with you know Hardware more to do with you know Hardware limitations and you know battery limitations and you know battery limitations and you know battery consumption and that kind of thing so consumption and that kind of thing so consumption and that kind of thing so you've got a team that has expertise ke you've got a team that has expertise ke you've got a team that has expertise ke in.net and you're using it on the back in.net and you're using it on the back in.net and you're using it on the back end like you said you're scaling a game end like you said you're scaling a game end like you said you're scaling a game to a million you know concurrent users to a million you know concurrent users to a million you know concurrent users and then Meadow comes along and from and then Meadow comes along and from and then Meadow comes along and from Wilderness labs and Meadow is basically Wilderness labs and Meadow is basically Wilderness labs and Meadow is basically Donnet on microcontrollers and that's Donnet on microcontrollers and that's Donnet on microcontrollers and that's really important thing to call out we really important thing to call out we really important thing to call out we should explain that it's not a should explain that it's not a should explain that it's not a microprocessor it's not doet on a

microprocessor it's not doet on a microprocessor it's not doet on a Raspberry Pi it's a much much smaller Raspberry Pi it's a much much smaller Raspberry Pi it's a much much smaller thing yeah absolutely I mean the the thing yeah absolutely I mean the the thing yeah absolutely I mean the the microprocessor based uh you know has a microprocessor based uh you know has a microprocessor based uh you know has a has a place you know somewhere on the has a place you know somewhere on the has a place you know somewhere on the edge in a static location perhaps with a edge in a static location perhaps with a edge in a static location perhaps with a you know Mains reliable Mains feed of you know Mains reliable Mains feed of you know Mains reliable Mains feed of electricity but most of what we call iot electricity but most of what we call iot electricity but most of what we call iot was kind of solar powered you know was kind of solar powered you know was kind of solar powered you know battery backed we needed like super low battery backed we needed like super low battery backed we needed like super low battery consumption um we needed the battery consumption um we needed the battery consumption um we needed the things to run in standby for you know things to run in standby for you know things to run in standby for you know many days you know before the sun came many days you know before the sun came many days you know before the sun came back out again so all of the other sort back out again so all of the other sort back out again so all of the other sort of microprocessor based kind of of microprocessor based kind of of microprocessor based kind of solutions that been around for a while solutions that been around for a while solutions that been around for a while weren't really suitable for us and weren't really suitable for us and weren't really suitable for us and predating like Meadow you know we' built predating like Meadow you know we' built predating like Meadow you know we' built iot stuff with pics and you know kind of iot stuff with pics and you know kind of iot stuff with pics and you know kind of like traditional embedded you know like traditional embedded you know like traditional embedded you know hardware and stuff which was all hardware and stuff which was all hardware and stuff which was all all fine but you know super difficult all fine but you know super difficult all fine but you know super difficult and a bit like um you know stepping back and a bit like um you know stepping back and a bit like um you know stepping back into the 70s to be honest what now so into the 70s to be honest what now so into the 70s to be honest what now so that that's an interesting perspective I that that's an interesting perspective I that that's an interesting perspective I was going to ask you why not just use was going to ask you why not just use was going to ask you why not just use the tried and true right why can't the tried and true right why can't the tried and true right why can't everybody just learn C I guess it's everybody just learn C I guess it's everybody just learn C I guess it's because I came to embedded last you know because I came to embedded last you know because I came to embedded last you know I'm quite late to embedded really I'm I'm quite late to embedded really I'm I'm quite late to embedded really I'm not I'm not electronics engineer so I I not I'm not electronics engineer so I I not I'm not electronics engineer so I I and my company came from a kind of like and my company came from a kind of like and my company came from a kind of like back end and we we were asked really to back end and we we were asked really to back end and we we were asked really to take over the iot of a project of a take over the iot of a project of a take over the iot of a project of a client that was really struggling with client that was really struggling with client that was really struggling with liability and when we started looking at liability and when we started looking at liability and when we started looking at like the tool chain that the development like the tool chain that the development like the tool chain that the development team were using and kind of like what team were using and kind of like what team were using and kind of like what they had to play with we were shocked we they had to play with we were shocked we they had to play with we were shocked we were like where's the kind of um you were like where's the kind of um you were like where's the kind of um you know testing framework where's all the know testing framework where's all the know testing framework where's all the abstraction around the hardware and abstraction around the hardware and abstraction around the hardware and stuff so we you know help them through stuff so we you know help them through stuff so we you know help them through good engineering I mean we've got graph good engineering I mean we've got graph good engineering I mean we've got graph paper out and like figured out they were paper out and like figured out they were paper out and like figured out they were like overwriting memory in in like C and

like overwriting memory in in like C and like overwriting memory in in like C and that was causing all sorts of issues and that was causing all sorts of issues and that was causing all sorts of issues and stuff so we we kind of like got it got stuff so we we kind of like got it got stuff so we we kind of like got it got it done but we were like there surely it done but we were like there surely it done but we were like there surely there's got to be a better way in in in there's got to be a better way in in in there's got to be a better way in in in the embedded wealth for like doing some the embedded wealth for like doing some the embedded wealth for like doing some of the stuff that we take for granted in of the stuff that we take for granted in of the stuff that we take for granted in backend stroke Enterprise you know in backend stroke Enterprise you know in backend stroke Enterprise you know in terms of you know some of the things terms of you know some of the things terms of you know some of the things that are like just now considered the that are like just now considered the that are like just now considered the default yeah the the idea like when you default yeah the the idea like when you default yeah the the idea like when you were saying that I'm thinking it's 2024 were saying that I'm thinking it's 2024 were saying that I'm thinking it's 2024 and we're overwriting memory like I and we're overwriting memory like I and we're overwriting memory like I remember like you know writing C in 1992 remember like you know writing C in 1992 remember like you know writing C in 1992 and like yeah just overes of memory it's and like yeah just overes of memory it's and like yeah just overes of memory it's just it's very low level and that that just it's very low level and that that just it's very low level and that that has a place you know if you're doing the has a place you know if you're doing the has a place you know if you're doing the Linux kernel or you're working on the W Linux kernel or you're working on the W Linux kernel or you're working on the W Windows kernel but you know if you're Windows kernel but you know if you're Windows kernel but you know if you're just trying to make an application that just trying to make an application that just trying to make an application that checks the temperature of the air and checks the temperature of the air and checks the temperature of the air and the moisture sensors of a farm that's a the moisture sensors of a farm that's a the moisture sensors of a farm that's a business problem and overriding memory business problem and overriding memory business problem and overriding memory is is kind of a waste of my time yeah I is is kind of a waste of my time yeah I is is kind of a waste of my time yeah I mean to give you a little bit background mean to give you a little bit background mean to give you a little bit background in this it's actually like an economics in this it's actually like an economics in this it's actually like an economics problem really because what we were problem really because what we were problem really because what we were trying to do was to provide uh solar trying to do was to provide uh solar trying to do was to provide uh solar energy personel solar energy systems to energy personel solar energy systems to energy personel solar energy systems to people in the developing world and people in the developing world and people in the developing world and allowing them to pay for them over time allowing them to pay for them over time allowing them to pay for them over time so uh using iot if you like to secure so uh using iot if you like to secure so uh using iot if you like to secure the asset you know they make their sort the asset you know they make their sort the asset you know they make their sort of payments the the system was stay of payments the the system was stay of payments the the system was stay active but the unit price was like super active but the unit price was like super active but the unit price was like super critical and the component of that unit critical and the component of that unit critical and the component of that unit price was obviously price was obviously price was obviously the labor time it took to you know write the labor time it took to you know write the labor time it took to you know write the firmware and you know for the pics the firmware and you know for the pics the firmware and you know for the pics we were like having to write the we were like having to write the we were like having to write the bootloader having to write the over the bootloader having to write the over the bootloader having to write the over the air updaters you know first version of air updaters you know first version of air updaters you know first version of that uh didn't go so well you know we that uh didn't go so well you know we that uh didn't go so well you know we Brak 60,000 units we had to pull them Brak 60,000 units we had to pull them Brak 60,000 units we had to pull them into service centers and stuff that's into service centers and stuff that's into service centers and stuff that's where Meadow I think is really appealing where Meadow I think is really appealing where Meadow I think is really appealing it goes beyond you know kind of hobbyist

it goes beyond you know kind of hobbyist it goes beyond you know kind of hobbyist it goes into the Enterprise where like it goes into the Enterprise where like it goes into the Enterprise where like you could go to scale and really start you could go to scale and really start you could go to scale and really start to drive down the economic cost of to drive down the economic cost of to drive down the economic cost of deploying iot um that's the thing that deploying iot um that's the thing that deploying iot um that's the thing that really excites us really excites us really excites us right and I want to make sure that we right and I want to make sure that we right and I want to make sure that we explain what a pi is right it's a family explain what a pi is right it's a family explain what a pi is right it's a family of microcontrollers but pick's of microcontrollers but pick's of microcontrollers but pick's programmable intelligent computer that's programmable intelligent computer that's programmable intelligent computer that's been around since 1985 and it's kind of been around since 1985 and it's kind of been around since 1985 and it's kind of a general term to mean like little tiny a general term to mean like little tiny a general term to mean like little tiny embedded systems yeah pretty much yeah embedded systems yeah pretty much yeah embedded systems yeah pretty much yeah so uh family processes uh controllers as so uh family processes uh controllers as so uh family processes uh controllers as you say they really limited on memory you say they really limited on memory you say they really limited on memory just you know just like everything else just you know just like everything else just you know just like everything else but yeah we um sort of wanted to but yeah we um sort of wanted to but yeah we um sort of wanted to transition away from that and that's transition away from that and that's transition away from that and that's when you know as we came to Meadow we when you know as we came to Meadow we when you know as we came to Meadow we started to see if we could sort of started to see if we could sort of started to see if we could sort of improve the developer people and the the improve the developer people and the the improve the developer people and the the thing that really excited us about U thing that really excited us about U thing that really excited us about U meow the most recent project was being meow the most recent project was being meow the most recent project was being able to do a lot of the development work able to do a lot of the development work able to do a lot of the development work on the desktop that for us was on the desktop that for us was on the desktop that for us was unbelievable it literally could give you unbelievable it literally could give you unbelievable it literally could give you know one of the other Engineers that had know one of the other Engineers that had know one of the other Engineers that had never done an iot project and say okay never done an iot project and say okay never done an iot project and say okay here's the workflow here's the State here's the workflow here's the State here's the workflow here's the State Management we need go put this in here Management we need go put this in here Management we need go put this in here and then like kind of isolate out all and then like kind of isolate out all and then like kind of isolate out all the sensors so that you know it's just the sensors so that you know it's just the sensors so that you know it's just sending you logs to say I would have sending you logs to say I would have sending you logs to say I would have done this here or I would have received done this here or I would have received done this here or I would have received this data there and you know we had it this data there and you know we had it this data there and you know we had it running in like two days I think and it running in like two days I think and it running in like two days I think and it was you know completely up and running was you know completely up and running was you know completely up and running then we took it to a meadow F7 made a then we took it to a meadow F7 made a then we took it to a meadow F7 made a couple of changes in terms of you know couple of changes in terms of you know couple of changes in terms of you know bringing in the hardware and then hey bringing in the hardware and then hey bringing in the hardware and then hey Presto it's it's up and running in in Presto it's it's up and running in in Presto it's it's up and running in in like another couple of days on top of like another couple of days on top of like another couple of days on top of that and you think wow this is we have that and you think wow this is we have that and you think wow this is we have to do this on the desktop I mean I don't to do this on the desktop I mean I don't to do this on the desktop I mean I don't know if youve compiled a meow know if youve compiled a meow know if youve compiled a meow application on the desktop but on a application on the desktop but on a application on the desktop but on a decent PC it takes like seconds it's uh

decent PC it takes like seconds it's uh decent PC it takes like seconds it's uh you know you don't have that deployment you know you don't have that deployment you know you don't have that deployment cycle time at all it's uh even though cycle time at all it's uh even though cycle time at all it's uh even though it's pretty quick now in the meadow you it's pretty quick now in the meadow you it's pretty quick now in the meadow you still take that out of the dev Loop you still take that out of the dev Loop you still take that out of the dev Loop you know yeah just literally yesterday I was know yeah just literally yesterday I was know yeah just literally yesterday I was on my YouTube streaming because I've on my YouTube streaming because I've on my YouTube streaming because I've been working on this uh this kit that is been working on this uh this kit that is been working on this uh this kit that is building an apple one from like 7400 building an apple one from like 7400 building an apple one from like 7400 series parts right you know there's series parts right you know there's series parts right you know there's Arduino in there and there's i2c and Arduino in there and there's i2c and Arduino in there and there's i2c and there's like it's very embedded and then there's like it's very embedded and then there's like it's very embedded and then I got to a point where one of my chips I got to a point where one of my chips I got to a point where one of my chips was bad and I had to get out a chip was bad and I had to get out a chip was bad and I had to get out a chip programmer and and and figure I had to programmer and and and figure I had to programmer and and and figure I had to get some weird old old software and a get some weird old old software and a get some weird old old software and a weird USB driver and Flash this chip and weird USB driver and Flash this chip and weird USB driver and Flash this chip and I so I had a bunch of at Mega chips and I so I had a bunch of at Mega chips and I so I had a bunch of at Mega chips and there was an there was an there was an ftdi cord and it was like suddenly I ftdi cord and it was like suddenly I ftdi cord and it was like suddenly I felt like I was out of the business felt like I was out of the business felt like I was out of the business problem which was you know and suddenly problem which was you know and suddenly problem which was you know and suddenly I'm just I'm into the I'm literally I'm just I'm into the I'm literally I'm just I'm into the I'm literally thinking about electrons yeah it cannot thinking about electrons yeah it cannot thinking about electrons yeah it cannot be overstated the Paradigm Shift you hit be overstated the Paradigm Shift you hit be overstated the Paradigm Shift you hit a wall and then now you're literally a wall and then now you're literally a wall and then now you're literally poking electrons around and I think it's poking electrons around and I think it's poking electrons around and I think it's fair to say that Meadow and things like fair to say that Meadow and things like fair to say that Meadow and things like it are trying to keep you out of those it are trying to keep you out of those it are trying to keep you out of those weeds the abstraction layer it I know weeds the abstraction layer it I know weeds the abstraction layer it I know we're kind of gushing but it can't be we're kind of gushing but it can't be we're kind of gushing but it can't be overstated overstated overstated how high level you are yeah when you how high level you are yeah when you how high level you are yeah when you talk to some of the meadow guys some of talk to some of the meadow guys some of talk to some of the meadow guys some of the engineers are actually working on it the engineers are actually working on it the engineers are actually working on it who obviously have a deep knowledge of who obviously have a deep knowledge of who obviously have a deep knowledge of you know how this stuff works the clock you know how this stuff works the clock you know how this stuff works the clock Cycles mean everything and timing in Cycles mean everything and timing in Cycles mean everything and timing in electronics means everything you know in electronics means everything you know in electronics means everything you know in terms of like it2 uh squared and you terms of like it2 uh squared and you terms of like it2 uh squared and you know spio and all the rest of it and um know spio and all the rest of it and um know spio and all the rest of it and um yeah again as a as a s fairly high level yeah again as a as a s fairly high level yeah again as a as a s fairly high level sort of developer I had no idea you know

sort of developer I had no idea you know sort of developer I had no idea you know the complexity that they had there and the complexity that they had there and the complexity that they had there and we're shielding more and more of our we're shielding more and more of our we're shielding more and more of our developers I mean the you know a couple developers I mean the you know a couple developers I mean the you know a couple of the guys who worked on the project of the guys who worked on the project of the guys who worked on the project that we were on had literally never done that we were on had literally never done that we were on had literally never done any embedded at all they they had any embedded at all they they had any embedded at all they they had literally just good solid C developers literally just good solid C developers literally just good solid C developers understood the tool chain and then uh understood the tool chain and then uh understood the tool chain and then uh you know we have one or two guys that you know we have one or two guys that you know we have one or two guys that you know have done a lot more than that you know have done a lot more than that you know have done a lot more than that but you know to check some of that work but you know to check some of that work but you know to check some of that work but it just it's just such an enabler but it just it's just such an enabler but it just it's just such an enabler you know if there's businesses out there you know if there's businesses out there you know if there's businesses out there that are on the Tipping edge of like hey that are on the Tipping edge of like hey that are on the Tipping edge of like hey we think there's some value in doing we think there's some value in doing we think there's some value in doing something iot related in our business something iot related in our business something iot related in our business but we're not sure and we certainly but we're not sure and we certainly but we're not sure and we certainly don't want to take on you know this sort don't want to take on you know this sort don't want to take on you know this sort of big Gambit of like different skills of big Gambit of like different skills of big Gambit of like different skills and stuff I think meadow meadow sort of and stuff I think meadow meadow sort of and stuff I think meadow meadow sort of tips it over the edge for me in terms of tips it over the edge for me in terms of tips it over the edge for me in terms of the sort of business value and the the sort of business value and the the sort of business value and the business risk of of you know trying business risk of of you know trying business risk of of you know trying something that's in your business ter something that's in your business ter something that's in your business ter that you might want to you know take that you might want to you know take that you might want to you know take forward I think that's skills forward I think that's skills forward I think that's skills availability and you know risk and stuff availability and you know risk and stuff availability and you know risk and stuff I think it's a big big factor really so I think it's a big big factor really so I think it's a big big factor really so you you've done actually done a talk on you you've done actually done a talk on you you've done actually done a talk on why iot is hard I'm looking at your why iot is hard I'm looking at your why iot is hard I'm looking at your slides right now so that kind of covers slides right now so that kind of covers slides right now so that kind of covers multi-disciplinary skill requirements multi-disciplinary skill requirements multi-disciplinary skill requirements the idea that a traditional iot requires the idea that a traditional iot requires the idea that a traditional iot requires not only a broad spectrum of skills but not only a broad spectrum of skills but not only a broad spectrum of skills but some pretty deep stuff and it excludes some pretty deep stuff and it excludes some pretty deep stuff and it excludes it almost explicitly excludes the it almost explicitly excludes the it almost explicitly excludes the application developer from being application developer from being application developer from being involved in the tool chain and for you involved in the tool chain and for you involved in the tool chain and for you all Meadow solved that yeah for sure all Meadow solved that yeah for sure all Meadow solved that yeah for sure yeah yeah that was that was a big thing yeah yeah that was that was a big thing yeah yeah that was that was a big thing for us yeah and then the other thing you for us yeah and then the other thing you for us yeah and then the other thing you said was reliability power fault said was reliability power fault said was reliability power fault tolerance the idea that these things are tolerance the idea that these things are tolerance the idea that these things are not like on Wi-Fi yeah on reliable Mains not like on Wi-Fi yeah on reliable Mains not like on Wi-Fi yeah on reliable Mains power paint a picture for me where are

power paint a picture for me where are power paint a picture for me where are these devices and what are they running these devices and what are they running these devices and what are they running on the devices that we've just recently on the devices that we've just recently on the devices that we've just recently they were in homes in Kenya so um the they were in homes in Kenya so um the they were in homes in Kenya so um the backstory for this is that Kenya's got a backstory for this is that Kenya's got a backstory for this is that Kenya's got a few initiatives to try and help change few initiatives to try and help change few initiatives to try and help change Behavior around cooking um they're Behavior around cooking um they're Behavior around cooking um they're trying to move uh homesteads away from trying to move uh homesteads away from trying to move uh homesteads away from charcoal and you know burning other charcoal and you know burning other charcoal and you know burning other other materials in the home and there's other materials in the home and there's other materials in the home and there's a some fear around the price of a some fear around the price of a some fear around the price of electricity it's just something that electricity it's just something that electricity it's just something that people find difficult to quantify it's people find difficult to quantify it's people find difficult to quantify it's difficult for us to comprehend you know difficult for us to comprehend you know difficult for us to comprehend you know kind of where we are but so we built kind of where we are but so we built kind of where we are but so we built these units that would basically these units that would basically these units that would basically measured current and uh do one or two measured current and uh do one or two measured current and uh do one or two basic things would uh send the the data basic things would uh send the the data basic things would uh send the the data to to an app and give them a friendly to to an app and give them a friendly to to an app and give them a friendly view of of how much this um this cooking view of of how much this um this cooking view of of how much this um this cooking event had cost them so that they you event had cost them so that they you event had cost them so that they you know perhaps became less fearful of know perhaps became less fearful of know perhaps became less fearful of using the kind of you know electrical using the kind of you know electrical using the kind of you know electrical route and the second thing was actually route and the second thing was actually route and the second thing was actually to collect the data to calculate the to collect the data to calculate the to collect the data to calculate the carbon offset one of the things that carbon offset one of the things that carbon offset one of the things that that we were really interested in is if that we were really interested in is if that we were really interested in is if we could do this at volume and sort of we could do this at volume and sort of we could do this at volume and sort of collect all of these little bits of collect all of these little bits of collect all of these little bits of carbon offset for these people a very carbon offset for these people a very carbon offset for these people a very large scale which is is kind of the large scale which is is kind of the large scale which is is kind of the environment we came from we were like environment we came from we were like environment we came from we were like hey maybe we could like batch this up hey maybe we could like batch this up hey maybe we could like batch this up into a ton of carbon put it on the into a ton of carbon put it on the into a ton of carbon put it on the marketplace you know get good price for marketplace you know get good price for marketplace you know get good price for it because it kind of all audited it because it kind of all audited it because it kind of all audited theable and then give this money back to theable and then give this money back to theable and then give this money back to those people to you know help those people to you know help those people to you know help incentivize you know kind of further incentivize you know kind of further incentivize you know kind of further adoption of of you know Carbon reducing adoption of of you know Carbon reducing adoption of of you know Carbon reducing or or zero carbon you know kind of or or zero carbon you know kind of or or zero carbon you know kind of activities and stuff so yeah the meow is activities and stuff so yeah the meow is activities and stuff so yeah the meow is paying like a it's an interesting use of paying like a it's an interesting use of paying like a it's an interesting use of iot because it's measuring you know it's

iot because it's measuring you know it's iot because it's measuring you know it's it's a sensor but it's it's the context it's a sensor but it's it's the context it's a sensor but it's it's the context that it lives in it's kind of like doing that it lives in it's kind of like doing that it lives in it's kind of like doing more about you know sort of climate Tech more about you know sort of climate Tech more about you know sort of climate Tech and kind of potentially Revenue and kind of potentially Revenue and kind of potentially Revenue generation as well for those for those generation as well for those for those generation as well for those for those folks which is pretty good so the meadow folks which is pretty good so the meadow folks which is pretty good so the meadow device the iot device in this context is device the iot device in this context is device the iot device in this context is mounted in or around their their area mounted in or around their their area mounted in or around their their area their building it's collecting data and their building it's collecting data and their building it's collecting data and it's basically brokering it and sending it's basically brokering it and sending it's basically brokering it and sending it to a backend Cloud that then goes it to a backend Cloud that then goes it to a backend Cloud that then goes into a data store that you can then ask into a data store that you can then ask into a data store that you can then ask questions about this kind of swarm of questions about this kind of swarm of questions about this kind of swarm of thousands and thousands of these devices thousands and thousands of these devices thousands and thousands of these devices yeah so connected with GSM over mqtt yeah so connected with GSM over mqtt yeah so connected with GSM over mqtt connected to a your iot Hub and then uh connected to a your iot Hub and then uh connected to a your iot Hub and then uh reading that data obviously as a stream reading that data obviously as a stream reading that data obviously as a stream of data and um you know batching it you of data and um you know batching it you of data and um you know batching it you can do some um anomaly detection as well can do some um anomaly detection as well can do some um anomaly detection as well you know just for good governance you you know just for good governance you you know just for good governance you know like is this cooker on too or you know like is this cooker on too or you know like is this cooker on too or you know too much or is there something know too much or is there something know too much or is there something wrong with this cooker or that kind of wrong with this cooker or that kind of wrong with this cooker or that kind of stuff so you could look for anomalies stuff so you could look for anomalies stuff so you could look for anomalies and like s of quarantine that data for and like s of quarantine that data for and like s of quarantine that data for further inspection but by large it was further inspection but by large it was further inspection but by large it was just you know straight through batchet just you know straight through batchet just you know straight through batchet into uh you know reasonable levels you into uh you know reasonable levels you into uh you know reasonable levels you grams I think of carbon there's some grams I think of carbon there's some grams I think of carbon there's some well well understood mathematics well well understood mathematics well well understood mathematics environmental science around the offset environmental science around the offset environmental science around the offset and we just use that ready well one of and we just use that ready well one of and we just use that ready well one of the biggest problems with iot devices the biggest problems with iot devices the biggest problems with iot devices especially ones that are kind of like especially ones that are kind of like especially ones that are kind of like out in the world is that you've got to out in the world is that you've got to out in the world is that you've got to manage the state of the device is it on manage the state of the device is it on manage the state of the device is it on is it off is it crashed you got to keep is it off is it crashed you got to keep is it off is it crashed you got to keep it up to date and you've got you know it up to date and you've got you know it up to date and you've got you know data flowing arguably bidirectionally data flowing arguably bidirectionally data flowing arguably bidirectionally because updates will be pushed down because updates will be pushed down because updates will be pushed down Telemetry is coming back up and the Telemetry is coming back up and the Telemetry is coming back up and the network might be unreliable and what if network might be unreliable and what if network might be unreliable and what if 10% of your Fleet is busted you can't

10% of your Fleet is busted you can't 10% of your Fleet is busted you can't visit their house yeah and hook up a USB visit their house yeah and hook up a USB visit their house yeah and hook up a USB cable and fix it yeah it's a it's a cable and fix it yeah it's a it's a cable and fix it yeah it's a it's a really interesting point because you really interesting point because you really interesting point because you know yeah I'm going to sound old now but know yeah I'm going to sound old now but know yeah I'm going to sound old now but back in the day we had to build all of back in the day we had to build all of back in the day we had to build all of that stuff ourselves so um you know that stuff ourselves so um you know that stuff ourselves so um you know understanding where the flea was and and understanding where the flea was and and understanding where the flea was and and interestingly because we came from a interestingly because we came from a interestingly because we came from a distributed systems background if you distributed systems background if you distributed systems background if you think about your iot environment as like think about your iot environment as like think about your iot environment as like this giant distributed system where kind this giant distributed system where kind this giant distributed system where kind of every iot device is effectively like of every iot device is effectively like of every iot device is effectively like you know quotes to service quotes with you know quotes to service quotes with you know quotes to service quotes with its own State its own consistency very its own State its own consistency very its own State its own consistency very similar to sort of digital twin thinking similar to sort of digital twin thinking similar to sort of digital twin thinking then it becomes a little clearer about then it becomes a little clearer about then it becomes a little clearer about you know where you need to put the you know where you need to put the you know where you need to put the effort in terms of building a reliable effort in terms of building a reliable effort in terms of building a reliable system so you know just like system so you know just like system so you know just like microservices that are on transient microservices that are on transient microservices that are on transient networks and what have you we've got networks and what have you we've got networks and what have you we've got these GSM devices that I mean sometimes these GSM devices that I mean sometimes these GSM devices that I mean sometimes whole Towers go down you know so you whole Towers go down you know so you whole Towers go down you know so you lose you'll lose a tower in an area of lose you'll lose a tower in an area of lose you'll lose a tower in an area of of the country and then that will wipe of the country and then that will wipe of the country and then that will wipe out you know connectivity to like a out you know connectivity to like a out you know connectivity to like a large number of those devices and you've large number of those devices and you've large number of those devices and you've got to wait for that uh Tower to come got to wait for that uh Tower to come got to wait for that uh Tower to come back online and of course those devices back online and of course those devices back online and of course those devices will all rush to like do their will all rush to like do their will all rush to like do their reconnects and then try and send you all reconnects and then try and send you all reconnects and then try and send you all of that que data so there's little of that que data so there's little of that que data so there's little subtleties around you know Peak load and subtleties around you know Peak load and subtleties around you know Peak load and you know exponential back off and stuff you know exponential back off and stuff you know exponential back off and stuff which again from a backend perspective a which again from a backend perspective a which again from a backend perspective a lot of the developers will recognize in lot of the developers will recognize in lot of the developers will recognize in terms of like things that you do in terms of like things that you do in terms of like things that you do in distribute Computing and a great you distribute Computing and a great you distribute Computing and a great you know and of course we've got some great know and of course we've got some great know and of course we've got some great libraries in net which already solve libraries in net which already solve libraries in net which already solve some of these problems which are great some of these problems which are great some of these problems which are great you can just lean on those without you can just lean on those without you can just lean on those without having to reinvent the well so these having to reinvent the well so these having to reinvent the well so these things are occasionally connected let's things are occasionally connected let's things are occasionally connected let's say that the the network is down for a say that the the network is down for a say that the the network is down for a couple of days there's storage though it couple of days there's storage though it couple of days there's storage though it could be storing that data yeah see it

could be storing that data yeah see it could be storing that data yeah see it does it basically so what it does is does it basically so what it does is does it basically so what it does is that we actually use you know threading that we actually use you know threading that we actually use you know threading just just like you'd expect in in a just just like you'd expect in in a just just like you'd expect in in a normal net application so we've got one normal net application so we've got one normal net application so we've got one thread that's you know running the thread that's you know running the thread that's you know running the sensors and you know en queing all of sensors and you know en queing all of sensors and you know en queing all of that data and then we've got another that data and then we've got another that data and then we've got another another thread that's checking the another thread that's checking the another thread that's checking the connectivity availability and and uh you connectivity availability and and uh you connectivity availability and and uh you know using the real time clock to like know using the real time clock to like know using the real time clock to like figure out if it's ready to send the figure out if it's ready to send the figure out if it's ready to send the data and stuff so just like you're able data and stuff so just like you're able data and stuff so just like you're able to think on a sort of you know got an to think on a sort of you know got an to think on a sort of you know got an application you're running on your PC or application you're running on your PC or application you're running on your PC or or in the cloud or whatever you can or in the cloud or whatever you can or in the cloud or whatever you can think in the same way you can't start up think in the same way you can't start up think in the same way you can't start up 2,000 threats there's no sort of weather 2,000 threats there's no sort of weather 2,000 threats there's no sort of weather simulation possible on a on a meadow but simulation possible on a on a meadow but simulation possible on a on a meadow but as long as you're cognizant of the as long as you're cognizant of the as long as you're cognizant of the capacity of the hardware you've got you capacity of the hardware you've got you capacity of the hardware you've got you can just use exactly the same patterns can just use exactly the same patterns can just use exactly the same patterns and that's one of the great things about and that's one of the great things about and that's one of the great things about you're just taking cognitive load off of you're just taking cognitive load off of you're just taking cognitive load off of the developer and you're you're the developer and you're you're the developer and you're you're hammering on the business problem you're hammering on the business problem you're hammering on the business problem you're not worry about you know some of the not worry about you know some of the not worry about you know some of the other stuff the idea that there's other stuff the idea that there's other stuff the idea that there's threading just seems completely like threading just seems completely like threading just seems completely like unhinged to me like I'm trying to get my unhinged to me like I'm trying to get my unhinged to me like I'm trying to get my head around how that works you know what head around how that works you know what head around how that works you know what I mean yeah like you said you can't you I mean yeah like you said you can't you I mean yeah like you said you can't you know it's it's not computationally know it's it's not computationally know it's it's not computationally intensive but it's like oh I just need intensive but it's like oh I just need intensive but it's like oh I just need this to run in the background cuz that's this to run in the background cuz that's this to run in the background cuz that's the kind of thing a business person says the kind of thing a business person says the kind of thing a business person says is oh I just yeah can you just yeah I is oh I just yeah can you just yeah I is oh I just yeah can you just yeah I don't see why you can't just yeah real don't see why you can't just yeah real don't see why you can't just yeah real time clocks I mean even that just time clocks I mean even that just time clocks I mean even that just setting reliable time is like setting reliable time is like setting reliable time is like non-trivial in these things right it's non-trivial in these things right it's non-trivial in these things right it's like well if it doesn't get network time like well if it doesn't get network time like well if it doesn't get network time you know what what does time look like you know what what does time look like you know what what does time look like so you know there's some things with you so you know there's some things with you so you know there's some things with you know you would you wouldn't recognize know you would you wouldn't recognize know you would you wouldn't recognize the difficult problems until you start the difficult problems until you start the difficult problems until you start to tackle I scaling and you're like hey

to tackle I scaling and you're like hey to tackle I scaling and you're like hey what what if this thing can't see the what what if this thing can't see the what what if this thing can't see the ntp server it now thinks it's like 1 of ntp server it now thinks it's like 1 of ntp server it now thinks it's like 1 of January January January 202010 you know what do we do then you 202010 you know what do we do then you 202010 you know what do we do then you know you know that's a funny Point know you know that's a funny Point know you know that's a funny Point actually one of the things that became actually one of the things that became actually one of the things that became complicated that I don't think anyone complicated that I don't think anyone complicated that I don't think anyone ever talks about it it became ever talks about it it became ever talks about it it became complicated in the last maybe 10 years complicated in the last maybe 10 years complicated in the last maybe 10 years is your machine whatever it is your is your machine whatever it is your is your machine whatever it is your light bulb your phone your computer has light bulb your phone your computer has light bulb your phone your computer has to know the right time because now we're to know the right time because now we're to know the right time because now we're connecting to https yeah in the old days connecting to https yeah in the old days connecting to https yeah in the old days who cares what the time is I'm just who cares what the time is I'm just who cares what the time is I'm just going to do a get but now everything's going to do a get but now everything's going to do a get but now everything's secure so now you've got C certificate secure so now you've got C certificate secure so now you've got C certificate management and the entire crypto stack management and the entire crypto stack management and the entire crypto stack on a microcontroller which would be a on a microcontroller which would be a on a microcontroller which would be a business which would be a technical business which would be a technical business which would be a technical problem rather you'd have to solve that problem rather you'd have to solve that problem rather you'd have to solve that has nothing to do with these folks has nothing to do with these folks has nothing to do with these folks cookers in Kenya yeah no absolutely that cookers in Kenya yeah no absolutely that cookers in Kenya yeah no absolutely that that's a step right and in fact you know that's a step right and in fact you know that's a step right and in fact you know we're you know some of the early work we we're you know some of the early work we we're you know some of the early work we did with uh connecting up to the iot hub did with uh connecting up to the iot hub did with uh connecting up to the iot hub we were like why the heck weren't this we were like why the heck weren't this we were like why the heck weren't this thing connect we've doing everything thing connect we've doing everything thing connect we've doing everything correct and then we realized the time correct and then we realized the time correct and then we realized the time was out and the time was out by was out and the time was out by was out and the time was out by sufficient enough that as you iot was sufficient enough that as you iot was sufficient enough that as you iot was like hey hey you this the time's too far like hey hey you this the time's too far like hey hey you this the time's too far a drift you can't connect so um you've a drift you can't connect so um you've a drift you can't connect so um you've got to have like good reliable time like got to have like good reliable time like got to have like good reliable time like you say now and once it's set you're you say now and once it's set you're you say now and once it's set you're good you know there's a reliable you good you know there's a reliable you good you know there's a reliable you know real time clock in the in the know real time clock in the in the know real time clock in the in the meadow you know so it's all good so over meadow you know so it's all good so over meadow you know so it's all good so over the a updates like how do you deploy the a updates like how do you deploy the a updates like how do you deploy updates to the app and how do you make updates to the app and how do you make updates to the app and how do you make sure you don't make a mistake and then sure you don't make a mistake and then sure you don't make a mistake and then you know suddenly you're driving out to you know suddenly you're driving out to you know suddenly you're driving out to their house yeah so there's two their house yeah so there's two their house yeah so there's two interesting things about over the a interesting things about over the a interesting things about over the a updates because one modifies your updates because one modifies your updates because one modifies your behavior so if you've got a reliable way

behavior so if you've got a reliable way behavior so if you've got a reliable way of doing over the a update you feel less of doing over the a update you feel less of doing over the a update you feel less frightened to put more firmware out frightened to put more firmware out frightened to put more firmware out there you know maybe fix more bugs more there you know maybe fix more bugs more there you know maybe fix more bugs more quickly release more quickly maybe stay quickly release more quickly maybe stay quickly release more quickly maybe stay a little bit more agile and a little bit a little bit more agile and a little bit a little bit more agile and a little bit less uh waterful because the risk of less uh waterful because the risk of less uh waterful because the risk of potentially making mistake is mitigated potentially making mistake is mitigated potentially making mistake is mitigated by the reliable over theair update when by the reliable over theair update when by the reliable over theair update when we didn't have over the a at all or or we didn't have over the a at all or or we didn't have over the a at all or or when when it was um you know maybe not when when it was um you know maybe not when when it was um you know maybe not so reliable that sort of freezes the so reliable that sort of freezes the so reliable that sort of freezes the business from a culture perspective business from a culture perspective business from a culture perspective because they nobody wants that call on because they nobody wants that call on because they nobody wants that call on Saturday morning that says hey that Saturday morning that says hey that Saturday morning that says hey that firmware we just rolled out as you know firmware we just rolled out as you know firmware we just rolled out as you know brick thousands of devices so having brick thousands of devices so having brick thousands of devices so having Meadow cloud and it's ability to sort of Meadow cloud and it's ability to sort of Meadow cloud and it's ability to sort of deploy firmware in a sort of phased and deploy firmware in a sort of phased and deploy firmware in a sort of phased and reliable way is is absolutely fantastic reliable way is is absolutely fantastic reliable way is is absolutely fantastic it makes it less risky you know in order it makes it less risky you know in order it makes it less risky you know in order for you to push on new features new you for you to push on new features new you for you to push on new features new you know bug fixes and stuff it just again know bug fixes and stuff it just again know bug fixes and stuff it just again you gets value to your customers more you gets value to your customers more you gets value to your customers more quickly from a purely business sense quickly from a purely business sense quickly from a purely business sense like on my desk I'm looking at a meadow like on my desk I'm looking at a meadow like on my desk I'm looking at a meadow dev kit and the dev kit looks like a you dev kit and the dev kit looks like a you dev kit and the dev kit looks like a you know a stick of gum and then the larger know a stick of gum and then the larger know a stick of gum and then the larger dev kit which has like you know all the dev kit which has like you know all the dev kit which has like you know all the things you would want to like practice things you would want to like practice things you would want to like practice on is you know kind of the size of a on is you know kind of the size of a on is you know kind of the size of a deck of cards maybe but you're not deck of cards maybe but you're not deck of cards maybe but you're not deploying the dev kit right I assume you deploying the dev kit right I assume you deploying the dev kit right I assume you did something more official and how did did something more official and how did did something more official and how did you have expertise in that because you have expertise in that because you have expertise in that because there's the you've got a bunch of people there's the you've got a bunch of people there's the you've got a bunch of people who know C but then you also need who know C but then you also need who know C but then you also need someone to design a board for you and someone to design a board for you and someone to design a board for you and deploy that in a reliable way so what's deploy that in a reliable way so what's deploy that in a reliable way so what's the difference between the what the dev the difference between the what the dev the difference between the what the dev has on their desk versus what got sent has on their desk versus what got sent has on their desk versus what got sent out into the world uh we use the CCM out into the world uh we use the CCM out into the world uh we use the CCM module for which is uh I can't remember

module for which is uh I can't remember module for which is uh I can't remember exactly what it stands for but it's like exactly what it stands for but it's like exactly what it stands for but it's like the you know the kind of high density the you know the kind of high density the you know the kind of high density module that allows you to build really module that allows you to build really module that allows you to build really tight spins of like boards and get tight spins of like boards and get tight spins of like boards and get boards to be custom but some of the boards to be custom but some of the boards to be custom but some of the early prototypes that we sent out so early prototypes that we sent out so early prototypes that we sent out so like the desk prototypes and we did a like the desk prototypes and we did a like the desk prototypes and we did a like an early trial we took project lab like an early trial we took project lab like an early trial we took project lab boards so the meadow do a like a project boards so the meadow do a like a project boards so the meadow do a like a project lab U board which is kind of um a meadow lab U board which is kind of um a meadow lab U board which is kind of um a meadow built in with some sensors and it opens built in with some sensors and it opens built in with some sensors and it opens up some ports that allow you to put on up some ports that allow you to put on up some ports that allow you to put on um like literally like snapin like um like literally like snapin like um like literally like snapin like add-ons onto the onto the thing and we add-ons onto the onto the thing and we add-ons onto the onto the thing and we actually sent I think about 15 of those actually sent I think about 15 of those actually sent I think about 15 of those out into the field they were reced so out into the field they were reced so out into the field they were reced so you couldn't tell that they were lab you couldn't tell that they were lab you couldn't tell that they were lab boards but we we kind of like went with boards but we we kind of like went with boards but we we kind of like went with that and then after that work with the that and then after that work with the that and then after that work with the guys at Meadow to come up with a more um guys at Meadow to come up with a more um guys at Meadow to come up with a more um bespoke unit when we were confident bespoke unit when we were confident bespoke unit when we were confident about volumes and you know we could go about volumes and you know we could go about volumes and you know we could go to manufacturing but again the software to manufacturing but again the software to manufacturing but again the software Med OS everything nothing knows weirdly Med OS everything nothing knows weirdly Med OS everything nothing knows weirdly we use a dependency injection to like we use a dependency injection to like we use a dependency injection to like pull out which sensors we were using so pull out which sensors we were using so pull out which sensors we were using so there's a slight difference between the there's a slight difference between the there's a slight difference between the like the project abb3 board and like like the project abb3 board and like like the project abb3 board and like what what went into production and we what what went into production and we what what went into production and we just had a you know an i current sensor just had a you know an i current sensor just had a you know an i current sensor and like use dependency injection so and like use dependency injection so and like use dependency injection so like any net developer would like like any net developer would like like any net developer would like understand immediately that we were like understand immediately that we were like understand immediately that we were like just exchanging the implementation of just exchanging the implementation of just exchanging the implementation of this sensor um and it would like look up this sensor um and it would like look up this sensor um and it would like look up and say oh I'm running on a project V3 and say oh I'm running on a project V3 and say oh I'm running on a project V3 board okay I need to do this and then it board okay I need to do this and then it board okay I need to do this and then it would be like oh no I'm running on a you would be like oh no I'm running on a you would be like oh no I'm running on a you know CCM production board I need to do know CCM production board I need to do know CCM production board I need to do that you know so um yeah it's uh it's that you know so um yeah it's uh it's that you know so um yeah it's uh it's pretty cool well I want to ask this

pretty cool well I want to ask this pretty cool well I want to ask this question now that you understand all of question now that you understand all of question now that you understand all of this you've got experience as a company this you've got experience as a company this you've got experience as a company is this a new business for APPA to like is this a new business for APPA to like is this a new business for APPA to like are you going to start becoming iot are you going to start becoming iot are you going to start becoming iot experts and this opens up a whole experts and this opens up a whole experts and this opens up a whole division yeah we've had enough interest division yeah we've had enough interest division yeah we've had enough interest and particularly in in Meadow and and and particularly in in Meadow and and and particularly in in Meadow and and some of the sort of expertise that we as some of the sort of expertise that we as some of the sort of expertise that we as Meadow has sort of started to become Meadow has sort of started to become Meadow has sort of started to become more uh more understood in the market um more uh more understood in the market um more uh more understood in the market um yeah we think there is a real uh yeah we think there is a real uh yeah we think there is a real uh business opportunity we're talking to business opportunity we're talking to business opportunity we're talking to two or two or two or I'd say there were small to mediumsized I'd say there were small to mediumsized I'd say there were small to mediumsized businesses that were sort of more businesses that were sort of more businesses that were sort of more Electronics focused and less uh backend Electronics focused and less uh backend Electronics focused and less uh backend focused so like HVAC and people that are focused so like HVAC and people that are focused so like HVAC and people that are building reasonable quantities of building reasonable quantities of building reasonable quantities of devices which now have to be connected devices which now have to be connected devices which now have to be connected flaw heating kind of HVAC units that flaw heating kind of HVAC units that flaw heating kind of HVAC units that that kind of stuff and there's a whole that kind of stuff and there's a whole that kind of stuff and there's a whole sort of Market out there of people that sort of Market out there of people that sort of Market out there of people that feel excluded I think because the big feel excluded I think because the big feel excluded I think because the big guys can just like hire you know big guys can just like hire you know big guys can just like hire you know big multidisciplinary teams they can kind of multidisciplinary teams they can kind of multidisciplinary teams they can kind of like really like hammer on the like really like hammer on the like really like hammer on the iterations of stuff but then the smaller iterations of stuff but then the smaller iterations of stuff but then the smaller companies out there that maybe want to companies out there that maybe want to companies out there that maybe want to start building connected devices and start building connected devices and start building connected devices and offering you know their particular offering you know their particular offering you know their particular products or or their business value they products or or their business value they products or or their business value they feel it's a bit excluded and if they've feel it's a bit excluded and if they've feel it's a bit excluded and if they've got some guys that are you know doing got some guys that are you know doing got some guys that are you know doing some stuff in the back end on on Don net some stuff in the back end on on Don net some stuff in the back end on on Don net and they recognize hey you know and and they recognize hey you know and and they recognize hey you know and we're the sort of company that we're not we're the sort of company that we're not we're the sort of company that we're not done until if there is an internal team done until if there is an internal team done until if there is an internal team you know that they're fully up to speed you know that they're fully up to speed you know that they're fully up to speed you know so like we will sore our own you know so like we will sore our own you know so like we will sore our own Branch off in this case it would be you Branch off in this case it would be you Branch off in this case it would be you know handing over all of that net code know handing over all of that net code know handing over all of that net code for Meadow and making sure that they for Meadow and making sure that they for Meadow and making sure that they could maintain it themselves yeah folks could maintain it themselves yeah folks could maintain it themselves yeah folks that listen to the podcast know that I

that listen to the podcast know that I that listen to the podcast know that I have a bias towards C you know I've done have a bias towards C you know I've done have a bias towards C you know I've done C I've done C++ I've done Java like I've C I've done C++ I've done Java like I've C I've done C++ I've done Java like I've done all the languages but I keep coming done all the languages but I keep coming done all the languages but I keep coming back to C and selfishly like to your back to C and selfishly like to your back to C and selfishly like to your point if you've got guys and gals that point if you've got guys and gals that point if you've got guys and gals that have C experience it doesn't matter if have C experience it doesn't matter if have C experience it doesn't matter if they're asp.net developers or or web they're asp.net developers or or web they're asp.net developers or or web forms or Wind forms or whatever it's forms or Wind forms or whatever it's forms or Wind forms or whatever it's very comfortable it's the language that very comfortable it's the language that very comfortable it's the language that they know and then when you sit down and they know and then when you sit down and they know and then when you sit down and I have experienced during this with a I have experienced during this with a I have experienced during this with a meadow application and you go oh meadow application and you go oh meadow application and you go oh I get this I get this yeah you deriv I get this I get this yeah you deriv I get this I get this yeah you deriv from meow app okay that's cool oh this from meow app okay that's cool oh this from meow app okay that's cool oh this is a pin okay you know and it's just and is a pin okay you know and it's just and is a pin okay you know and it's just and then to your point you just use then to your point you just use then to your point you just use dependency injection it's so nuts and I dependency injection it's so nuts and I dependency injection it's so nuts and I mean that in a positive way that you're mean that in a positive way that you're mean that in a positive way that you're using dependency injection on a using dependency injection on a using dependency injection on a microcontroller and it works it's just microcontroller and it works it's just microcontroller and it works it's just such a joy it's very comfortable yeah we such a joy it's very comfortable yeah we such a joy it's very comfortable yeah we um we call it the difference between uh um we call it the difference between uh um we call it the difference between uh drawing a picture and coloring it in drawing a picture and coloring it in drawing a picture and coloring it in there's a big uh kind of Delta between there's a big uh kind of Delta between there's a big uh kind of Delta between you know maybe lots of Engineers uh who you know maybe lots of Engineers uh who you know maybe lots of Engineers uh who don't have Meadow experience who could don't have Meadow experience who could don't have Meadow experience who could quite happily color in a picture that quite happily color in a picture that quite happily color in a picture that we've drawn for them and then eventually we've drawn for them and then eventually we've drawn for them and then eventually they'll become proficient enough to like they'll become proficient enough to like they'll become proficient enough to like draw their own pictures you know but you draw their own pictures you know but you draw their own pictures you know but you know whilst they're like figuring all know whilst they're like figuring all know whilst they're like figuring all that out you know rather than giving that out you know rather than giving that out you know rather than giving them sort blank sheet of paper they can them sort blank sheet of paper they can them sort blank sheet of paper they can like like I say lean on the comfort of c like like I say lean on the comfort of c like like I say lean on the comfort of c and do net this Big E ecosystem of of and do net this Big E ecosystem of of and do net this Big E ecosystem of of like net libraries and stuff plus you like net libraries and stuff plus you like net libraries and stuff plus you know what the the meadow team and uh and know what the the meadow team and uh and know what the the meadow team and uh and you know the the sort of community that you know the the sort of community that you know the the sort of community that they've put together there's there's so they've put together there's there's so they've put together there's there's so much talent in there in terms of like to much talent in there in terms of like to much talent in there in terms of like to IND experience and you know there's um IND experience and you know there's um IND experience and you know there's um you know a few of us back in guys

you know a few of us back in guys you know a few of us back in guys there's a lot of embed guys you know so there's a lot of embed guys you know so there's a lot of embed guys you know so you always find that there's a You Know you always find that there's a You Know you always find that there's a You Know Rich V and support very cool well thank Rich V and support very cool well thank Rich V and support very cool well thank you so much John kattenhorn for chatting you so much John kattenhorn for chatting you so much John kattenhorn for chatting with me today no problem it's a pleasure with me today no problem it's a pleasure with me today no problem it's a pleasure yeah great to be on the show we have yeah great to be on the show we have yeah great to be on the show we have been chatting with John kattenhorn CEO been chatting with John kattenhorn CEO been chatting with John kattenhorn CEO of applia you can check them out at of applia you can check them out at of applia you can check them out at aplia.com we've been talking about iot aplia.com we've been talking about iot aplia.com we've been talking about iot and specifically Meadow from Wilderness and specifically Meadow from Wilderness and specifically Meadow from Wilderness Labs which is at wilderness labs. Labs which is at wilderness labs. Labs which is at wilderness labs. this has been another episode of Hansel this has been another episode of Hansel this has been another episode of Hansel minutes and we'll see you again next minutes and we'll see you again next minutes and we'll see you again next [Music]