The Game Designers Workbook with Bobby Lockhart

Hey friends, it's Scott. I'm going to Hey friends, it's Scott. I'm going to take a moment in the middle of the show take a moment in the middle of the show take a moment in the middle of the show here and thank our new sponsor, Tupal. here and thank our new sponsor, Tupal. here and thank our new sponsor, Tupal. You know, I'm chatting with Johnny You know, I'm chatting with Johnny You know, I'm chatting with Johnny Marlor. You know, Johnny, pair Marlor. You know, Johnny, pair Marlor. You know, Johnny, pair programming is kind of a niche thing, programming is kind of a niche thing, programming is kind of a niche thing, right? Like I know a lot of devs that right? Like I know a lot of devs that right? Like I know a lot of devs that don't pair much at all. Do you really don't pair much at all. Do you really don't pair much at all. Do you really think it's worth pair programming? think it's worth pair programming? think it's worth pair programming? >> Yeah, I I think even if you're the best >> Yeah, I I think even if you're the best >> Yeah, I I think even if you're the best programmer in the world, there's always programmer in the world, there's always programmer in the world, there's always something you can learn from other something you can learn from other something you can learn from other people. And uh you know I think there's people. And uh you know I think there's people. And uh you know I think there's nothing like pairing that enables you to nothing like pairing that enables you to nothing like pairing that enables you to exchange like really technical exchange like really technical exchange like really technical expertise. Um you know for example I'm expertise. Um you know for example I'm expertise. Um you know for example I'm really systemsoriented. You know I have really systemsoriented. You know I have really systemsoriented. You know I have exhaustive error handling. I wrote my exhaustive error handling. I wrote my exhaustive error handling. I wrote my own X11 library because the error own X11 library because the error own X11 library because the error handling wasn't good enough. And my handling wasn't good enough. And my handling wasn't good enough. And my co-orker Mikey he's he's completely co-orker Mikey he's he's completely co-orker Mikey he's he's completely different. He's he's really an expert on different. He's he's really an expert on different. He's he's really an expert on Mac OS. He's a big Objective C fan. Um, Mac OS. He's a big Objective C fan. Um, Mac OS. He's a big Objective C fan. Um, but because we've paired so much, we've but because we've paired so much, we've but because we've paired so much, we've slowly been able to build up um, slowly been able to build up um, slowly been able to build up um, expertise in each other's domains and expertise in each other's domains and expertise in each other's domains and styles, and he's taken some stuff from styles, and he's taken some stuff from styles, and he's taken some stuff from me and vice versa. Um, it's been really me and vice versa. Um, it's been really me and vice versa. Um, it's been really good to have that regular pairing and good to have that regular pairing and good to have that regular pairing and exchange of ideas and information. So, I exchange of ideas and information. So, I exchange of ideas and information. So, I I think it's really hard to get that and I think it's really hard to get that and I think it's really hard to get that and it's also hard to stay on the same page it's also hard to stay on the same page it's also hard to stay on the same page when you're not pairing with somebody in when you're not pairing with somebody in when you're not pairing with somebody in instead of, you know, trying to send instead of, you know, trying to send instead of, you know, trying to send comments to each other in a GitHub pull comments to each other in a GitHub pull comments to each other in a GitHub pull request and maybe arguing over request and maybe arguing over request and maybe arguing over something. Being able to slow down and something. Being able to slow down and something. Being able to slow down and take that time and work on something take that time and work on something take that time and work on something real with somebody, there's just nothing real with somebody, there's just nothing real with somebody, there's just nothing that replaces it. Very cool. I think that replaces it. Very cool. I think that replaces it. Very cool. I think more people should try pairing. I did a more people should try pairing. I did a more people should try pairing. I did a lot of pairing in person. And the lot of pairing in person. And the lot of pairing in person. And the nearest thing you can do from pairing in nearest thing you can do from pairing in nearest thing you can do from pairing in person is using something like Tupil.

person is using something like Tupil. person is using something like Tupil. You can check it out at tupil.app. app. You can check it out at tupil.app. app. You can check it out at tupil.app. app. It's the best remote pair programming It's the best remote pair programming It's the best remote pair programming app on both Mac OS and Windows. app on both Mac OS and Windows. app on both Mac OS and Windows. Hi, I'm Scott Hansel and this is another Hi, I'm Scott Hansel and this is another Hi, I'm Scott Hansel and this is another episode of Hansel Minutes. Today I'm episode of Hansel Minutes. Today I'm episode of Hansel Minutes. Today I'm chatting with Bobby Lockheart. He's got chatting with Bobby Lockheart. He's got chatting with Bobby Lockheart. He's got a brand new book out called The Game a brand new book out called The Game a brand new book out called The Game Designers Workbook. You can check it out Designers Workbook. You can check it out Designers Workbook. You can check it out at gamedesignersworkbook.com. at gamedesignersworkbook.com. at gamedesignersworkbook.com. How are you, sir? How are you, sir? How are you, sir? >> Hi, I'm doing well. >> Hi, I'm doing well. >> Hi, I'm doing well. >> Thanks for having me. you, man. I love >> Thanks for having me. you, man. I love >> Thanks for having me. you, man. I love looking at people's LinkedIns and looking at people's LinkedIns and looking at people's LinkedIns and people's websites, and it's always uh in people's websites, and it's always uh in people's websites, and it's always uh in uh kind of impressive when someone uh kind of impressive when someone uh kind of impressive when someone starts with an award-winning game starts with an award-winning game starts with an award-winning game designer, film making, computer science, designer, film making, computer science, designer, film making, computer science, games. You're a creative, aren't you? I games. You're a creative, aren't you? I games. You're a creative, aren't you? I am. Yeah. And I've been sort of bouncing am. Yeah. And I've been sort of bouncing am. Yeah. And I've been sort of bouncing back and forth between left and right back and forth between left and right back and forth between left and right brain for a long time. Like I went to an brain for a long time. Like I went to an brain for a long time. Like I went to an engineering high school and discovered engineering high school and discovered engineering high school and discovered there that I wanted to work in film. So, there that I wanted to work in film. So, there that I wanted to work in film. So, I went to NYU film school and discovered I went to NYU film school and discovered I went to NYU film school and discovered there that I wanted to do computer there that I wanted to do computer there that I wanted to do computer stuff. stuff. stuff. So, yeah, it's it's been a pingpong. And So, yeah, it's it's been a pingpong. And So, yeah, it's it's been a pingpong. And then I wish somebody had had seen this then I wish somebody had had seen this then I wish somebody had had seen this pattern and been like, "You should work pattern and been like, "You should work pattern and been like, "You should work in video games, man. It's both."

in video games, man. It's both." in video games, man. It's both." >> If only they told you earlier. >> If only they told you earlier. >> If only they told you earlier. >> Exactly. I'd had no idea until much >> Exactly. I'd had no idea until much >> Exactly. I'd had no idea until much later. later. later. >> And now you lead important little games. >> And now you lead important little games. >> And now you lead important little games. You do freelance game design, but You do freelance game design, but You do freelance game design, but there's education running through there's education running through there's education running through everything that you do. You're not just everything that you do. You're not just everything that you do. You're not just making games. You're making educational making games. You're making educational making games. You're making educational games. You're making fun games. You're games. You're making fun games. You're games. You're making fun games. You're making games that like change the way making games that like change the way making games that like change the way your brain works. Were you always your brain works. Were you always your brain works. Were you always thinking about like pedagogy and like thinking about like pedagogy and like thinking about like pedagogy and like how brains develop? Because there are how brains develop? Because there are how brains develop? Because there are people who just make fun games, but you people who just make fun games, but you people who just make fun games, but you you seem from my perspective to be you seem from my perspective to be you seem from my perspective to be putting more thought into it than the putting more thought into it than the putting more thought into it than the average Joe or Jane game designer. average Joe or Jane game designer. average Joe or Jane game designer. >> I'm so glad that uh that's coming >> I'm so glad that uh that's coming >> I'm so glad that uh that's coming across. Yeah. I mean, the reason I got across. Yeah. I mean, the reason I got across. Yeah. I mean, the reason I got into games is I read this book called into games is I read this book called into games is I read this book called The Diamond Age by Neil Stevenson. Have The Diamond Age by Neil Stevenson. Have The Diamond Age by Neil Stevenson. Have you read the The Diamond Age? you read the The Diamond Age? you read the The Diamond Age? >> Yeah, I read most of Neil Stevenson >> Yeah, I read most of Neil Stevenson >> Yeah, I read most of Neil Stevenson stuff. Diamond Age is a long book. stuff. Diamond Age is a long book. stuff. Diamond Age is a long book. >> It's it I really wish that there was >> It's it I really wish that there was >> It's it I really wish that there was some stuff there was that there was an some stuff there was that there was an some stuff there was that there was an edited version that was more edited version that was more edited version that was more kid-friendly because there's some weird kid-friendly because there's some weird kid-friendly because there's some weird adult stuff in there. But there's also adult stuff in there. But there's also adult stuff in there. But there's also uh a depiction of kind of an ideal uh a depiction of kind of an ideal uh a depiction of kind of an ideal educational game. uh this book called educational game. uh this book called educational game. uh this book called the young lady's illustrated primer and the young lady's illustrated primer and the young lady's illustrated primer and I was so inspired by reading this I was so inspired by reading this I was so inspired by reading this science fiction story I was like who is science fiction story I was like who is science fiction story I was like who is working on this and at first I thought working on this and at first I thought working on this and at first I thought okay this is going to be a really fancy okay this is going to be a really fancy okay this is going to be a really fancy AI powered something that you know AI powered something that you know AI powered something that you know surveill the user determines what to surveill the user determines what to surveill the user determines what to teach creates an optical an optimal teach creates an optical an optimal teach creates an optical an optimal pedagogical strategy translates that

pedagogical strategy translates that pedagogical strategy translates that into a narrative embeds it with puzzles into a narrative embeds it with puzzles into a narrative embeds it with puzzles and whatever like but since then have and whatever like but since then have and whatever like but since then have sort of realized that that's even if we sort of realized that that's even if we sort of realized that that's even if we could do that that's maybe not the best could do that that's maybe not the best could do that that's maybe not the best approach. approach. approach. I my sort of life mission these days is I my sort of life mission these days is I my sort of life mission these days is to contribute towards an ecosystem of to contribute towards an ecosystem of to contribute towards an ecosystem of learning games so broad that someone learning games so broad that someone learning games so broad that someone could potentially self- select their way could potentially self- select their way could potentially self- select their way through an entire education in whatever through an entire education in whatever through an entire education in whatever they want to learn purely through games. they want to learn purely through games. they want to learn purely through games. That's not possible and in some cases That's not possible and in some cases That's not possible and in some cases for c some types of subjects probably for c some types of subjects probably for c some types of subjects probably not advisable but it would be so amazing not advisable but it would be so amazing not advisable but it would be so amazing if it was possible. if it was possible. if it was possible. Do games have to teach like am I Do games have to teach like am I Do games have to teach like am I learning in every single time I play a learning in every single time I play a learning in every single time I play a game no matter what the game is? game no matter what the game is? game no matter what the game is? >> Yes, all games teach. Usually they just >> Yes, all games teach. Usually they just >> Yes, all games teach. Usually they just teach you how to play the game. teach you how to play the game. teach you how to play the game. Sometimes they teach you how to spend Sometimes they teach you how to spend Sometimes they teach you how to spend money on the game. money on the game. money on the game. >> Yeah, inapp purchases suck.

>> Yeah, inapp purchases suck. >> Yeah, inapp purchases suck. So yeah, the sort of So yeah, the sort of So yeah, the sort of fundamental theory of educational games fundamental theory of educational games fundamental theory of educational games design is find design is find design is find what is fun interesting about the what is fun interesting about the what is fun interesting about the subject that you want to teach and make subject that you want to teach and make subject that you want to teach and make that the core game mechanic. If you make that the core game mechanic. If you make that the core game mechanic. If you make anything else the core game mechanic, anything else the core game mechanic, anything else the core game mechanic, then it will feel like what we call in then it will feel like what we call in then it will feel like what we call in the biz, chocolatecovered broccoli. the biz, chocolatecovered broccoli. the biz, chocolatecovered broccoli. Oh, get the kids to eat their broccoli, Oh, get the kids to eat their broccoli, Oh, get the kids to eat their broccoli, but they're going to go, "What is this?" but they're going to go, "What is this?" but they're going to go, "What is this?" and spit it out anyway. and spit it out anyway. and spit it out anyway. >> Exactly. It's like, so I don't know if >> Exactly. It's like, so I don't know if >> Exactly. It's like, so I don't know if you remember Math Blasters. you remember Math Blasters. you remember Math Blasters. >> So, >> So, >> So, >> I know it's very beloved because it's so >> I know it's very beloved because it's so >> I know it's very beloved because it's so foundational so early. Everybody's got foundational so early. Everybody's got foundational so early. Everybody's got the generational foundational game. Like the generational foundational game. Like the generational foundational game. Like my kids love there was a game called my kids love there was a game called my kids love there was a game called Stack the States that was effectively Stack the States that was effectively Stack the States that was effectively Tetris except it was states of the Tetris except it was states of the Tetris except it was states of the United States or countries. stack this. United States or countries. stack this. United States or countries. stack this. It was stack the countries was another It was stack the countries was another It was stack the countries was another one. So it's imagine Tetris. There's a one. So it's imagine Tetris. There's a one. So it's imagine Tetris. There's a line at the top which is the don't go line at the top which is the don't go line at the top which is the don't go above this line and then we're just above this line and then we're just above this line and then we're just going to drop countries. So it's like going to drop countries. So it's like going to drop countries. So it's like >> how did you clear countries?

>> how did you clear countries? >> how did you clear countries? >> So you have to rotate them and get like >> So you have to rotate them and get like >> So you have to rotate them and get like Brazil a certain way and it drops to the Brazil a certain way and it drops to the Brazil a certain way and it drops to the bottom and it floats down and there's bottom and it floats down and there's bottom and it floats down and there's like really cool physics. So like the like really cool physics. So like the like really cool physics. So like the two-dimensional map shape of Brazil two-dimensional map shape of Brazil two-dimensional map shape of Brazil drops down and then you got to fit fit drops down and then you got to fit fit drops down and then you got to fit fit Luxembourg into like Brazil's armpit and Luxembourg into like Brazil's armpit and Luxembourg into like Brazil's armpit and get as many states and countries as you get as many states and countries as you get as many states and countries as you want and then declare that this is you want and then declare that this is you want and then declare that this is you know and and you learn the states. This know and and you learn the states. This know and and you learn the states. This is not a game I grew up on, but man, my is not a game I grew up on, but man, my is not a game I grew up on, but man, my kids know the shape of every country on kids know the shape of every country on kids know the shape of every country on the planet because of this stupid game the planet because of this stupid game the planet because of this stupid game and they are obsessed with it. And and they are obsessed with it. And and they are obsessed with it. And that's so I just went, "Yeah, for Math that's so I just went, "Yeah, for Math that's so I just went, "Yeah, for Math Blaster, they would do the same for the Blaster, they would do the same for the Blaster, they would do the same for the stack of the states." stack of the states." stack of the states." >> Yeah. It's funny. There's there's sort >> Yeah. It's funny. There's there's sort >> Yeah. It's funny. There's there's sort of like a sensitive developmental period of like a sensitive developmental period of like a sensitive developmental period where memorization is just really where memorization is just really where memorization is just really attractive. And if you catch a kid in attractive. And if you catch a kid in attractive. And if you catch a kid in that period, you can get them to learn a that period, you can get them to learn a that period, you can get them to learn a list of almost anything. For a lot of list of almost anything. For a lot of list of almost anything. For a lot of people, it's Pokemon. people, it's Pokemon. people, it's Pokemon. But if you could get it to be, you know, But if you could get it to be, you know, But if you could get it to be, you know, the periodic table or something, um, it the periodic table or something, um, it the periodic table or something, um, it would be would be would be >> or or or the or the the uh >> or or or the or the the uh >> or or or the or the the uh multiplication tables.

multiplication tables. multiplication tables. >> I'm still a little iffy on the sevens >> I'm still a little iffy on the sevens >> I'm still a little iffy on the sevens and sixes. And I don't know what and sixes. And I don't know what and sixes. And I don't know what happened there. happened there. happened there. >> I never actually learned them. I learned >> I never actually learned them. I learned >> I never actually learned them. I learned like a few touch points and then I just like a few touch points and then I just like a few touch points and then I just like, you know, add like, you know, add like, you know, add >> multiples of whatever in my head. Yeah, >> multiples of whatever in my head. Yeah, >> multiples of whatever in my head. Yeah, exactly. exactly. exactly. But yeah, I brought up Math Belt But yeah, I brought up Math Belt But yeah, I brought up Math Belt Blasters because it's uh it's like Blasters because it's uh it's like Blasters because it's uh it's like classic chocolate covered broccoli. classic chocolate covered broccoli. classic chocolate covered broccoli. You're you're piloting this spaceship You're you're piloting this spaceship You're you're piloting this spaceship around and it's super fun and then it around and it's super fun and then it around and it's super fun and then it kind of pauses and gives you a math quiz kind of pauses and gives you a math quiz kind of pauses and gives you a math quiz and then and so you learn that math is and then and so you learn that math is and then and so you learn that math is sort of the thing that's in the way of sort of the thing that's in the way of sort of the thing that's in the way of fun instead of being the thing that is fun instead of being the thing that is fun instead of being the thing that is fun. Oh, that is a really way good way fun. Oh, that is a really way good way fun. Oh, that is a really way good way to put it. Math was in the way of fun. to put it. Math was in the way of fun. to put it. Math was in the way of fun. That is exactly right. That's exactly That is exactly right. That's exactly That is exactly right. That's exactly right. Which that actually makes me right. Which that actually makes me right. Which that actually makes me remember Code Combat. Did you work on remember Code Combat. Did you work on remember Code Combat. Did you work on Code Combat for a time? Code Combat for a time? Code Combat for a time? >> Code Combat. Yeah. And subsequent Code >> Code Combat. Yeah. And subsequent Code >> Code Combat. Yeah. And subsequent Code Combat products like Ozaria, Code Combat Combat products like Ozaria, Code Combat Combat products like Ozaria, Code Combat Worlds, for Roblox. Um, yeah, Worlds, for Roblox. Um, yeah, Worlds, for Roblox. Um, yeah, >> Code Combat was peak like for for for my >> Code Combat was peak like for for for my >> Code Combat was peak like for for for my kids. And even now I I call that back kids. And even now I I call that back kids. And even now I I call that back where it's like it's like everything where it's like it's like everything where it's like it's like everything that's great about Zelda plus coding.

that's great about Zelda plus coding. that's great about Zelda plus coding. These like my two favorite things. and These like my two favorite things. and These like my two favorite things. and having my kids just play the heck out of having my kids just play the heck out of having my kids just play the heck out of Code Combat at when they were like 9 and Code Combat at when they were like 9 and Code Combat at when they were like 9 and 12. 12. 12. >> That is so delightful to hear. >> That is so delightful to hear. >> That is so delightful to hear. >> Oh yeah. Yeah, that's a super authentic >> Oh yeah. Yeah, that's a super authentic >> Oh yeah. Yeah, that's a super authentic one. Like to the point where you're even one. Like to the point where you're even one. Like to the point where you're even typing and like a lot of coding games. typing and like a lot of coding games. typing and like a lot of coding games. I've worked on a bunch of coding games. I've worked on a bunch of coding games. I've worked on a bunch of coding games. Uh learn to learn to code games you Uh learn to learn to code games you Uh learn to learn to code games you could call them. Uh could call them. Uh could call them. Uh most of them have some kind of most of them have some kind of most of them have some kind of abstraction to make it feel easier to to abstraction to make it feel easier to to abstraction to make it feel easier to to get over the hump of syntax, get over the hump of syntax, get over the hump of syntax, but uh on code combat and code combat but uh on code combat and code combat but uh on code combat and code combat worlds and all of those, we just took it worlds and all of those, we just took it worlds and all of those, we just took it head on. You're typing you're typing in head on. You're typing you're typing in head on. You're typing you're typing in a text field and you know whether it a text field and you know whether it a text field and you know whether it runs it's you can have syntax errors, runs it's you can have syntax errors, runs it's you can have syntax errors, you can have logic errors. It's you can have logic errors. It's you can have logic errors. It's >> Why was it that Code Combat popped so >> Why was it that Code Combat popped so >> Why was it that Code Combat popped so much? Was it just because it was much? Was it just because it was much? Was it just because it was good-looking? Was it because it was good-looking? Was it because it was good-looking? Was it because it was familiar? Like, what was it that made it familiar? Like, what was it that made it familiar? Like, what was it that made it like work? like work? like work? >> Good question. Yeah, I think I think a >> Good question. Yeah, I think I think a >> Good question. Yeah, I think I think a lot I mean I'm the type of person who lot I mean I'm the type of person who lot I mean I'm the type of person who attributes a lot of things to luck.

Some of it is right place, right time. Some of it is right place, right time. You know, it can't it was on the web. You know, it can't it was on the web. You know, it can't it was on the web. So, right when schools were getting So, right when schools were getting So, right when schools were getting Chromebooks Chromebooks Chromebooks and it happened to get in front of the Y and it happened to get in front of the Y and it happened to get in front of the Y Combinator folks at the right time. Combinator folks at the right time. Combinator folks at the right time. Yeah. But it also Yeah. But it also Yeah. But it also has really approachable challenges. has really approachable challenges. has really approachable challenges. I think it it demonstrates why some of I think it it demonstrates why some of I think it it demonstrates why some of these coding concepts are useful in a these coding concepts are useful in a these coding concepts are useful in a context that that doesn't require a lot context that that doesn't require a lot context that that doesn't require a lot of explanation. Like if you need to get of explanation. Like if you need to get of explanation. Like if you need to get a password from somebody and remember a password from somebody and remember a password from somebody and remember it, you know, you need a variable and it, you know, you need a variable and it, you know, you need a variable and then you bring it over to then you bring it over to then you bring it over to something or tell it to someone so that something or tell it to someone so that something or tell it to someone so that they can say it to the se to the magical they can say it to the se to the magical they can say it to the se to the magical door to open. Uh it just makes these door to open. Uh it just makes these door to open. Uh it just makes these concepts feel more tangible. Yeah. concepts feel more tangible. Yeah. concepts feel more tangible. Yeah. >> Um although that's that's kind of >> Um although that's that's kind of >> Um although that's that's kind of another key part of all educational another key part of all educational another key part of all educational games design is um Seymour Papert once games design is um Seymour Papert once games design is um Seymour Papert once said like French isn't difficult for for said like French isn't difficult for for said like French isn't difficult for for kids in France. Why is it difficult for kids in France. Why is it difficult for kids in France. Why is it difficult for kids in the US? Because their whole kids in the US? Because their whole kids in the US? Because their whole context all of their like social capital context all of their like social capital context all of their like social capital all of their ability to get things done all of their ability to get things done all of their ability to get things done is based on their ability to speak is based on their ability to speak is based on their ability to speak French.

French. French. If you want to teach kids math, you If you want to teach kids math, you If you want to teach kids math, you create a context like France is for create a context like France is for create a context like France is for French, you create Mathland for math French, you create Mathland for math French, you create Mathland for math and and kids will learn it. And so all and and kids will learn it. And so all and and kids will learn it. And so all educational games, well, not all, but a educational games, well, not all, but a educational games, well, not all, but a lot of really well-designed educational lot of really well-designed educational lot of really well-designed educational games try to create a context where it's games try to create a context where it's games try to create a context where it's critical that you know, you know, critical that you know, you know, critical that you know, you know, seventh grade Spanish or what whatever seventh grade Spanish or what whatever seventh grade Spanish or what whatever this the subject is. this the subject is. this the subject is. There was a time when I was at a There was a time when I was at a There was a time when I was at a conference called XOXO um in Portland. conference called XOXO um in Portland. conference called XOXO um in Portland. It's called it's kind of like South by It's called it's kind of like South by It's called it's kind of like South by Southwest except Portland style which Southwest except Portland style which Southwest except Portland style which makes sense because Portland and Austin makes sense because Portland and Austin makes sense because Portland and Austin are two sides of the same coin. So, you are two sides of the same coin. So, you are two sides of the same coin. So, you know, South by Southwest is this big know, South by Southwest is this big know, South by Southwest is this big tech education festival thing and XOXO tech education festival thing and XOXO tech education festival thing and XOXO was a big one. And I bumped into a guy was a big one. And I bumped into a guy was a big one. And I bumped into a guy and we were talking about education and and we were talking about education and and we were talking about education and I was like, you know, you should get I was like, you know, you should get I was like, you know, you should get this game called Robot Turtles, which this game called Robot Turtles, which this game called Robot Turtles, which was a game like Logo that was a board was a game like Logo that was a board was a game like Logo that was a board game for teaching kids. And the guy I game for teaching kids. And the guy I game for teaching kids. And the guy I was talking to was Dan Shapiro, the guy was talking to was Dan Shapiro, the guy was talking to was Dan Shapiro, the guy who invented Robot Turtles. So, in in who invented Robot Turtles. So, in in who invented Robot Turtles. So, in in sitting and geeking out about game sitting and geeking out about game sitting and geeking out about game design and teaching kids how to code, I design and teaching kids how to code, I design and teaching kids how to code, I ended up trying to sell Robot Turtles to ended up trying to sell Robot Turtles to ended up trying to sell Robot Turtles to the guy who invented it. I didn't I the guy who invented it. I didn't I the guy who invented it. I didn't I didn't put two and two together. And didn't put two and two together. And didn't put two and two together. And he's like, he's like, he's like, >> did he let you talk about >> did he let you talk about >> did he let you talk about >> He let me He let me go for like four >> He let me He let me go for like four >> He let me He let me go for like four minutes before he was like, "Oh, yeah, minutes before he was like, "Oh, yeah, minutes before he was like, "Oh, yeah, that was me." You know, that was me and that was me." You know, that was me and that was me." You know, that was me and Elon Lee and we did that together.

Elon Lee and we did that together. Elon Lee and we did that together. >> Wow. That's great uh market research >> Wow. That's great uh market research >> Wow. That's great uh market research when you can let someone talk to you when you can let someone talk to you when you can let someone talk to you about what they like about the thing about what they like about the thing about what they like about the thing that you made. that you made. that you made. >> Oh yeah. I was just going off and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on. Oh yeah, you and on and on and on. Oh yeah, you and on and on and on. Oh yeah, you should teach your kids. Yeah. Like cuz I should teach your kids. Yeah. Like cuz I should teach your kids. Yeah. Like cuz I learned how to like move turtles around learned how to like move turtles around learned how to like move turtles around with a game called Logo. with a game called Logo. with a game called Logo. >> Logo. Yeah. >> Logo. Yeah. >> Logo. Yeah. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> See Pepper. I mean the guy I just quoted >> See Pepper. I mean the guy I just quoted >> See Pepper. I mean the guy I just quoted created Logo. created Logo. created Logo. >> See there you go. It's all full circle. >> See there you go. It's all full circle. >> See there you go. It's all full circle. and you know and Dan and and and made and you know and Dan and and and made and you know and Dan and and and made with you know Elon Lee made this this with you know Elon Lee made this this with you know Elon Lee made this this board game Robot Turtles which is board game Robot Turtles which is board game Robot Turtles which is totally appropriate for like five and totally appropriate for like five and totally appropriate for like five and six-year-olds six-year-olds six-year-olds >> and and they learn coding without >> and and they learn coding without >> and and they learn coding without knowing that they're learning coding and knowing that they're learning coding and knowing that they're learning coding and like the the coding onramp from robot like the the coding onramp from robot like the the coding onramp from robot turtles into code combat was like my turtles into code combat was like my turtles into code combat was like my go-to. I would start the kids out you go-to. I would start the kids out you go-to. I would start the kids out you know before I you know because I don't know before I you know because I don't know before I you know because I don't want screen time for a 5-year-old. So want screen time for a 5-year-old. So want screen time for a 5-year-old. So like four, five, six robot turtles, like four, five, six robot turtles, like four, five, six robot turtles, seven, eight, nine, 12. That's that's seven, eight, nine, 12. That's that's seven, eight, nine, 12. That's that's code combat time. code combat time. code combat time. >> Yeah, that's a great uh pathway.

>> Yeah, that's a great uh pathway. >> Yeah, that's a great uh pathway. >> Yeah, it's worked out so far. Hey >> Yeah, it's worked out so far. Hey >> Yeah, it's worked out so far. Hey friends, this is Scott. I want to take a friends, this is Scott. I want to take a friends, this is Scott. I want to take a moment to thank our new sponsor, Postman moment to thank our new sponsor, Postman moment to thank our new sponsor, Postman Flows. I was chatting with Rodri from Flows. I was chatting with Rodri from Flows. I was chatting with Rodri from Postman. You know, Rodrik, what is one Postman. You know, Rodrik, what is one Postman. You know, Rodrik, what is one thing that you thought would be simple, thing that you thought would be simple, thing that you thought would be simple, but it turned out to be surprisingly but it turned out to be surprisingly but it turned out to be surprisingly hard. And what did you learn from it? hard. And what did you learn from it? hard. And what did you learn from it? I think my biggest learning has been I think my biggest learning has been I think my biggest learning has been that AI can only compensate what for that AI can only compensate what for that AI can only compensate what for what you don't know only so much. So if what you don't know only so much. So if what you don't know only so much. So if you really don't know what you're doing, you really don't know what you're doing, you really don't know what you're doing, you really can't wield AI in very you really can't wield AI in very you really can't wield AI in very powerful ways. Particularly when you're powerful ways. Particularly when you're powerful ways. Particularly when you're composing APIs together or you're composing APIs together or you're composing APIs together or you're building UI, you can get to good building UI, you can get to good building UI, you can get to good outcomes from scratch. But if you're outcomes from scratch. But if you're outcomes from scratch. But if you're iterating, you really have to start iterating, you really have to start iterating, you really have to start understanding what's actually happening understanding what's actually happening understanding what's actually happening under the covers and you have to peel under the covers and you have to peel under the covers and you have to peel the layers of abstraction, at least the layers of abstraction, at least the layers of abstraction, at least where we are today. That may change in where we are today. That may change in where we are today. That may change in the future. And I found that visual the future. And I found that visual the future. And I found that visual languages, visual construction helps me languages, visual construction helps me languages, visual construction helps me quite a bit in that regard. Um, so if quite a bit in that regard. Um, so if quite a bit in that regard. Um, so if you're an expert, you're now world you're an expert, you're now world you're an expert, you're now world class, but if you're a newbie, um, then class, but if you're a newbie, um, then class, but if you're a newbie, um, then you're still a newbie, just with more you're still a newbie, just with more you're still a newbie, just with more dangerous capabilities. And that's where dangerous capabilities. And that's where dangerous capabilities. And that's where it's an exciting world for us. We have it's an exciting world for us. We have it's an exciting world for us. We have to make sure that we're building and to make sure that we're building and to make sure that we're building and empowering people with the right tools empowering people with the right tools empowering people with the right tools with the right guard rails so that they with the right guard rails so that they with the right guard rails so that they can create good things but not do harm can create good things but not do harm can create good things but not do harm with particularly when you connect them with particularly when you connect them with particularly when you connect them to APIs that can um send payments or do to APIs that can um send payments or do to APIs that can um send payments or do transactions on your behalf. One of the transactions on your behalf. One of the transactions on your behalf. One of the great tools for visualizing how easy it great tools for visualizing how easy it great tools for visualizing how easy it is to do this kind of work is Postman is to do this kind of work is Postman is to do this kind of work is Postman flows lets you orchestrate APIs, logic flows lets you orchestrate APIs, logic flows lets you orchestrate APIs, logic and data visually. You can check them and data visually. You can check them and data visually. You can check them out at postman.com/hancel out at postman.com/hancel out at postman.com/hancel minutes. So, you've been doing minutes. So, you've been doing minutes. So, you've been doing educational games, inventing toys for educational games, inventing toys for educational games, inventing toys for years. The book right now is called The

years. The book right now is called The years. The book right now is called The Game Designers Workbook. And it's worth Game Designers Workbook. And it's worth Game Designers Workbook. And it's worth calling out that it is not the game calling out that it is not the game calling out that it is not the game designers book. designers book. designers book. >> It's the game designer workbook. You >> It's the game designer workbook. You >> It's the game designer workbook. You have there's a lot of like not blank have there's a lot of like not blank have there's a lot of like not blank pages, but there's a lot of, you know, pages, but there's a lot of, you know, pages, but there's a lot of, you know, homework inside the book where you're homework inside the book where you're homework inside the book where you're expecting people to expecting people to expecting people to >> to work through problems rather than >> to work through problems rather than >> to work through problems rather than just lecturing at them. You almost made just lecturing at them. You almost made just lecturing at them. You almost made the game the book a game because they the game the book a game because they the game the book a game because they have to participate. have to participate. have to participate. >> That is exactly >> That is exactly >> That is exactly the feeling I was going for is to make the feeling I was going for is to make the feeling I was going for is to make the exercises themselves really playful the exercises themselves really playful the exercises themselves really playful and let you turn certain game design and let you turn certain game design and let you turn certain game design concept around in your hands the way you concept around in your hands the way you concept around in your hands the way you would a Rubik's cube. uh and try to would a Rubik's cube. uh and try to would a Rubik's cube. uh and try to understand all of its facets by actually understand all of its facets by actually understand all of its facets by actually working with it rather than by by working with it rather than by by working with it rather than by by reading about it. I also the more the reading about it. I also the more the reading about it. I also the more the more time I spend as a game designer, more time I spend as a game designer, more time I spend as a game designer, the less dogmatic I am about how game the less dogmatic I am about how game the less dogmatic I am about how game design should be done and how it works.

design should be done and how it works. design should be done and how it works. And so part of it was I don't have a lot And so part of it was I don't have a lot And so part of it was I don't have a lot of prescriptive advice to give, but I do of prescriptive advice to give, but I do of prescriptive advice to give, but I do think that I can help people find their think that I can help people find their think that I can help people find their own voice and what they value about game own voice and what they value about game own voice and what they value about game design. And that can only be done as a design. And that can only be done as a design. And that can only be done as a process, not as lecture. process, not as lecture. process, not as lecture. Um, Um, Um, it felt very Socratic method it felt very Socratic method it felt very Socratic method like you're asking questions. It's like you're asking questions. It's like you're asking questions. It's filled with questions where you're filled with questions where you're filled with questions where you're asking them like who are you? asking them like who are you? asking them like who are you? >> Who is the game designer in you? There's >> Who is the game designer in you? There's >> Who is the game designer in you? There's a lot of sections on reflective, you a lot of sections on reflective, you a lot of sections on reflective, you know, like let's just pause for a second know, like let's just pause for a second know, like let's just pause for a second and let's look back on this. I expected and let's look back on this. I expected and let's look back on this. I expected it to be dogmatic. it to be dogmatic. it to be dogmatic. >> Yeah. I mean the the reflection chapters >> Yeah. I mean the the reflection chapters >> Yeah. I mean the the reflection chapters a lot of that comes from again the a lot of that comes from again the a lot of that comes from again the background as a learning games designer background as a learning games designer background as a learning games designer because the research tells us that uh because the research tells us that uh because the research tells us that uh after a lecture or any kind of a lesson after a lecture or any kind of a lesson after a lecture or any kind of a lesson including playing with an educational including playing with an educational including playing with an educational game that knowledge gets better game that knowledge gets better game that knowledge gets better solidified if there is dedicated solidified if there is dedicated solidified if there is dedicated reflection time afterwards.

reflection time afterwards. reflection time afterwards. So if the learner So if the learner So if the learner does some introspection after they does some introspection after they does some introspection after they experience any kind of learning experience any kind of learning experience any kind of learning experience then uh it's just better for experience then uh it's just better for experience then uh it's just better for them long term. They they have time to them long term. They they have time to them long term. They they have time to sort of build the right neural pathways sort of build the right neural pathways sort of build the right neural pathways to keep that going. to keep that going. to keep that going. So, so some of it is that just p So, so some of it is that just p So, so some of it is that just p pragmatic stuff, but also yeah, it's pragmatic stuff, but also yeah, it's pragmatic stuff, but also yeah, it's it's there's questions and sort of lore it's there's questions and sort of lore it's there's questions and sort of lore and and self-image. As you become a game and and self-image. As you become a game and and self-image. As you become a game designer, you want to be like, who where designer, you want to be like, who where designer, you want to be like, who where do I fit in this? do I fit in this? do I fit in this? >> I do a lot of mentoring actually of >> I do a lot of mentoring actually of >> I do a lot of mentoring actually of early career game designers who who are early career game designers who who are early career game designers who who are trying to get into the industry, which trying to get into the industry, which trying to get into the industry, which is not impossible at the moment is not impossible at the moment is not impossible at the moment unfortunately. unfortunately. unfortunately. But a lot of the discussion we have is But a lot of the discussion we have is But a lot of the discussion we have is just talking about just talking about just talking about what kind of game designer are you going what kind of game designer are you going what kind of game designer are you going to try to be? Um, and part of that is to try to be? Um, and part of that is to try to be? Um, and part of that is like market realities like who who who's like market realities like who who who's like market realities like who who who's getting hired and part of it is what do getting hired and part of it is what do getting hired and part of it is what do you enjoy making which is very different you enjoy making which is very different you enjoy making which is very different from what you enjoy playing often and from what you enjoy playing often and from what you enjoy playing often and what what kind of brain do you have? Do what what kind of brain do you have? Do what what kind of brain do you have? Do you have a a puzzle making brain? Do you you have a a puzzle making brain? Do you you have a a puzzle making brain? Do you have a story making brain? you know, have a story making brain? you know, have a story making brain? you know, like uh all of these types of skills are like uh all of these types of skills are like uh all of these types of skills are useful for for game design.

useful for for game design. useful for for game design. >> Yeah. I had two episodes ago, three >> Yeah. I had two episodes ago, three >> Yeah. I had two episodes ago, three episodes ago, I had Nberry, who made episodes ago, I had Nberry, who made episodes ago, I had Nberry, who made Celeste on. I've had the gentleman who Celeste on. I've had the gentleman who Celeste on. I've had the gentleman who made Axiom Verge on Thomas Hap. And I I made Axiom Verge on Thomas Hap. And I I made Axiom Verge on Thomas Hap. And I I wonder when someone uh and and by the wonder when someone uh and and by the wonder when someone uh and and by the way, I also went to see the Stardew way, I also went to see the Stardew way, I also went to see the Stardew Valley Orchestra. They're like they're Valley Orchestra. They're like they're Valley Orchestra. They're like they're touring playing Stardew Valley music. So touring playing Stardew Valley music. So touring playing Stardew Valley music. So I saw I saw I saw the the designer I forgot his name the the designer I forgot his name the the designer I forgot his name something monkey who made Stardew something monkey who made Stardew something monkey who made Stardew Valley. Valley. Valley. >> Yeah. He has a Nom Dear. So I wonder >> Yeah. He has a Nom Dear. So I wonder >> Yeah. He has a Nom Dear. So I wonder sometimes if you hit a home run sometimes if you hit a home run sometimes if you hit a home run and you like come up with a Celeste or and you like come up with a Celeste or and you like come up with a Celeste or or or a Stardew Valley or a you know an or or a Stardew Valley or a you know an or or a Stardew Valley or a you know an Axiom Verge and then it's like okay you Axiom Verge and then it's like okay you Axiom Verge and then it's like okay you made this. It's it's amazing. You nailed made this. It's it's amazing. You nailed made this. It's it's amazing. You nailed it. You hit a home run on the first try. it. You hit a home run on the first try. it. You hit a home run on the first try. Do you get stuck and now you're that Do you get stuck and now you're that Do you get stuck and now you're that person? Uh, concerned ape is his name, person? Uh, concerned ape is his name, person? Uh, concerned ape is his name, not monkey. Eric Baron. not monkey. Eric Baron. not monkey. Eric Baron. >> Like, do you get stuck like when you >> Like, do you get stuck like when you >> Like, do you get stuck like when you made Code Combat, did you ever feel made Code Combat, did you ever feel made Code Combat, did you ever feel like, okay, I've worked on Code Combat like, okay, I've worked on Code Combat like, okay, I've worked on Code Combat with the other folks at the company, now with the other folks at the company, now with the other folks at the company, now this is what I have to do for the rest this is what I have to do for the rest this is what I have to do for the rest of my life?

of my life? of my life? >> Uh, no. In fact, I was I luckily have >> Uh, no. In fact, I was I luckily have >> Uh, no. In fact, I was I luckily have some friends at a place called Field Day some friends at a place called Field Day some friends at a place called Field Day Lab and they hired me to work on some Lab and they hired me to work on some Lab and they hired me to work on some games that do very very different things games that do very very different things games that do very very different things like a game that teaches journalism and like a game that teaches journalism and like a game that teaches journalism and a VR game where you are in first person a VR game where you are in first person a VR game where you are in first person as a Delhi penguin which is like a as a Delhi penguin which is like a as a Delhi penguin which is like a three-foot penguin who lives in the three-foot penguin who lives in the three-foot penguin who lives in the Antarctic and and a game about Antarctic and and a game about Antarctic and and a game about algae blooms algae blooms algae blooms and that that's just really useful to me and that that's just really useful to me and that that's just really useful to me even though those those are more like even though those those are more like even though those those are more like public media games. Those are all free. public media games. Those are all free. public media games. Those are all free. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And and so not as as lucrative like the >> And and so not as as lucrative like the >> And and so not as as lucrative like the the market really demands like STEM the market really demands like STEM the market really demands like STEM games, but games, but games, but these folks are are making stuff that these folks are are making stuff that these folks are are making stuff that that needs to be made and and is also that needs to be made and and is also that needs to be made and and is also sort of award-winning in its own right. sort of award-winning in its own right. sort of award-winning in its own right. And it's a such a great pallet cleanser And it's a such a great pallet cleanser And it's a such a great pallet cleanser in between the teaching coding in in between the teaching coding in in between the teaching coding in various ways. various ways. various ways. Yeah, in the book you, and this is just Yeah, in the book you, and this is just Yeah, in the book you, and this is just my perspective as a non-game designer, my perspective as a non-game designer, my perspective as a non-game designer, you blur the lines between game and you blur the lines between game and you blur the lines between game and video game. I would even go so far, you video game. I would even go so far, you video game. I would even go so far, you didn't call it the video game designer's didn't call it the video game designer's didn't call it the video game designer's workbook.

workbook. workbook. >> You don't seem to make a differentiation >> You don't seem to make a differentiation >> You don't seem to make a differentiation between a maze on a piece of paper or between a maze on a piece of paper or between a maze on a piece of paper or D&D or a video game. Are they is video D&D or a video game. Are they is video D&D or a video game. Are they is video is the video part of video game not is the video part of video game not is the video part of video game not important to you? There's just games. important to you? There's just games. important to you? There's just games. Yeah, I mean one of my biggest pet Yeah, I mean one of my biggest pet Yeah, I mean one of my biggest pet peeves is when people include game peeves is when people include game peeves is when people include game design in STEM. design in STEM. design in STEM. In Steam, yes, naturally, but in STEM, In Steam, yes, naturally, but in STEM, In Steam, yes, naturally, but in STEM, no. Game design no. Game design no. Game design >> explain the difference between the two. >> explain the difference between the two. >> explain the difference between the two. >> So STEM is science, technology, >> So STEM is science, technology, >> So STEM is science, technology, engineering, and math. engineering, and math. engineering, and math. >> Steam adds art in the middle there. And >> Steam adds art in the middle there. And >> Steam adds art in the middle there. And often what that often what that often what that people object to steam because it sounds people object to steam because it sounds people object to steam because it sounds like it encompasses almost all of human like it encompasses almost all of human like it encompasses almost all of human endeavor, right? Science, technology, endeavor, right? Science, technology, endeavor, right? Science, technology, engineering, art, and ma and engineering, art, and ma and engineering, art, and ma and mathematics. But in practice, what that mathematics. But in practice, what that mathematics. But in practice, what that means is really the other letters in means is really the other letters in means is really the other letters in service of art often. service of art often. service of art often. So, you know, like people making crazy So, you know, like people making crazy So, you know, like people making crazy LED shows that correspond to dance or LED shows that correspond to dance or LED shows that correspond to dance or whatever, like whatever, like whatever, like people writing algorithms for people writing algorithms for people writing algorithms for visualizers and and demo scene and stuff visualizers and and demo scene and stuff visualizers and and demo scene and stuff like that. That's all Steam.

like that. That's all Steam. like that. That's all Steam. But but to call game design engineering But but to call game design engineering But but to call game design engineering is is just to put it in engineering is is is just to put it in engineering is is is just to put it in engineering is is a travesty because is a travesty because is a travesty because game design is is much older than game design is is much older than game design is is much older than computers. computers. computers. >> Uh it's it's like 3,000 years old is the >> Uh it's it's like 3,000 years old is the >> Uh it's it's like 3,000 years old is the is the is the is the >> oldest game that we know the rules of >> oldest game that we know the rules of >> oldest game that we know the rules of Senate the the Egyptian game. Senate the the Egyptian game. Senate the the Egyptian game. Uh so people have been doing this a Uh so people have been doing this a Uh so people have been doing this a really really long time and it just really really long time and it just really really long time and it just belongs to a different lineage and you belongs to a different lineage and you belongs to a different lineage and you can do it with all kinds of things. You can do it with all kinds of things. You can do it with all kinds of things. You can do it with tabletop minis. You can can do it with tabletop minis. You can can do it with tabletop minis. You can do it entirely in your head. One of my do it entirely in your head. One of my do it entirely in your head. One of my favorite books is top 10 games you can favorite books is top 10 games you can favorite books is top 10 games you can play by yourself in your head. Play in play by yourself in your head. Play in play by yourself in your head. Play in your head by yourself. your head by yourself. your head by yourself. >> So you're saying, forgive me, I want to >> So you're saying, forgive me, I want to >> So you're saying, forgive me, I want to poke on this a little bit. You're saying poke on this a little bit. You're saying poke on this a little bit. You're saying game design isn't art or it's game design isn't art or it's game design isn't art or it's >> it is science.

>> it is science. >> it is science. >> It is >> It is >> It is >> it's >> it's >> it's not science or engineering. not science or engineering. not science or engineering. >> It's not science. >> It's not science. >> It's not science. >> Yeah. I It makes use of science. It >> Yeah. I It makes use of science. It >> Yeah. I It makes use of science. It makes use of math. It makes use of makes use of math. It makes use of makes use of math. It makes use of engineering sometimes depending on what engineering sometimes depending on what engineering sometimes depending on what type of game you're making. But but it's type of game you're making. But but it's type of game you're making. But but it's a humanity. It's it's something designed a humanity. It's it's something designed a humanity. It's it's something designed for other human minds. for other human minds. for other human minds. That's so interesting because there's That's so interesting because there's That's so interesting because there's like game I know this is not a direct like game I know this is not a direct like game I know this is not a direct parallel but there's game theory which parallel but there's game theory which parallel but there's game theory which is literally a science. There's people is literally a science. There's people is literally a science. There's people with PhDs in game theory. with PhDs in game theory. with PhDs in game theory. >> Yes. So game theory unfortunately has >> Yes. So game theory unfortunately has >> Yes. So game theory unfortunately has nothing to do with ludology which is the nothing to do with ludology which is the nothing to do with ludology which is the the study of games. the study of games. the study of games. >> New word for me. Ludology. >> New word for me. Ludology. >> New word for me. Ludology. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Game theory is like economics almost. Game theory is like economics almost. Game theory is like economics almost. It's like you know It's like you know It's like you know >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> If you do this I should do that. So >> If you do this I should do that. So >> If you do this I should do that. So that's gaming. Ludology is gaming that's gaming. Ludology is gaming that's gaming. Ludology is gaming theory. The study of games, the playing, theory. The study of games, the playing, theory. The study of games, the playing, the cultures, the everything around the cultures, the everything around the cultures, the everything around making games and gaming. making games and gaming. making games and gaming. >> Interesting. >> Interesting. >> Interesting. >> Yeah, it's it's more of a sociological >> Yeah, it's it's more of a sociological >> Yeah, it's it's more of a sociological study.

study. study. >> Okay, this is interesting. So you break >> Okay, this is interesting. So you break >> Okay, this is interesting. So you break down every kind of game. You go back down every kind of game. You go back down every kind of game. You go back into history. There's so puzzles which into history. There's so puzzles which into history. There's so puzzles which are pushing, you know, warehouse boxes are pushing, you know, warehouse boxes are pushing, you know, warehouse boxes around. We've all played stuff like that around. We've all played stuff like that around. We've all played stuff like that before. You go through the basics of before. You go through the basics of before. You go through the basics of like tic-tac-toe and connect 4 and you like tic-tac-toe and connect 4 and you like tic-tac-toe and connect 4 and you know but by the end you've given them know but by the end you've given them know but by the end you've given them almost a full like a thousand years of almost a full like a thousand years of almost a full like a thousand years of games. They've made a dozen games within games. They've made a dozen games within games. They've made a dozen games within it. What do you want people at the end it. What do you want people at the end it. What do you want people at the end of the book to be enabled to be able to of the book to be enabled to be able to of the book to be enabled to be able to do? I think part of it is to be able to do? I think part of it is to be able to do? I think part of it is to be able to join in conversation with other game join in conversation with other game join in conversation with other game designers and have the vocabulary and designers and have the vocabulary and designers and have the vocabulary and the the experience to to talk about the the the experience to to talk about the the the experience to to talk about the problems of making certain types of problems of making certain types of problems of making certain types of games games games on an informed level. on an informed level. on an informed level. And part of it is just confidence that And part of it is just confidence that And part of it is just confidence that they can make something of their own they can make something of their own they can make something of their own going forward. that's of a greater going forward. that's of a greater going forward. that's of a greater scale. I mean, and I very few of these scale. I mean, and I very few of these scale. I mean, and I very few of these exercises ask you to make a whole game.

exercises ask you to make a whole game. exercises ask you to make a whole game. It's often just bits and pieces. The the It's often just bits and pieces. The the It's often just bits and pieces. The the the important part of the game, like the important part of the game, like the important part of the game, like you're you're asking us to think about you're you're asking us to think about you're you're asking us to think about the loop, the game loop, the meat, the the loop, the game loop, the meat, the the loop, the game loop, the meat, the thing that makes the game interesting, thing that makes the game interesting, thing that makes the game interesting, the maze, you know, like you you give the maze, you know, like you you give the maze, you know, like you you give you're not necessarily in this book, you're not necessarily in this book, you're not necessarily in this book, from my perspective, having people come from my perspective, having people come from my perspective, having people come up with entirely new rules. You're up with entirely new rules. You're up with entirely new rules. You're you're showcasing a dozen different you're showcasing a dozen different you're showcasing a dozen different styles of rules and then saying play styles of rules and then saying play styles of rules and then saying play within this sandbox. within this sandbox. within this sandbox. >> Mhm. Exactly. And so >> Mhm. Exactly. And so >> Mhm. Exactly. And so unlike you know starting an indie game unlike you know starting an indie game unlike you know starting an indie game project by yourself project by yourself project by yourself >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> the constraints are are given to you. Of >> the constraints are are given to you. Of >> the constraints are are given to you. Of course, starting an indie game project, course, starting an indie game project, course, starting an indie game project, it's it sounds like it's limitless, but it's it sounds like it's limitless, but it's it sounds like it's limitless, but of course, you have the limits of your of course, you have the limits of your of course, you have the limits of your resources and your resources and your resources and your imagination, but imagination, but imagination, but have you ever read have you ever read have you ever read without a crew? without a crew? without a crew? >> Don't think so. >> Don't think so. >> Don't think so. >> It's Robert Rodriguez's book about >> It's Robert Rodriguez's book about >> It's Robert Rodriguez's book about making making making mariachi.

mariachi. mariachi. >> Oh, he made El mariachi for $8,000. And >> Oh, he made El mariachi for $8,000. And >> Oh, he made El mariachi for $8,000. And when he was pushing around the camera, when he was pushing around the camera, when he was pushing around the camera, he was actually pushing his buddy in a he was actually pushing his buddy in a he was actually pushing his buddy in a wheelchair and that was their dolly. wheelchair and that was their dolly. wheelchair and that was their dolly. >> Yeah. So, all of that type of stories is >> Yeah. So, all of that type of stories is >> Yeah. So, all of that type of stories is outlined essentially in a journal that's outlined essentially in a journal that's outlined essentially in a journal that's in this book, um, Rebel Without a Crew. in this book, um, Rebel Without a Crew. in this book, um, Rebel Without a Crew. And he talks about how all of the And he talks about how all of the And he talks about how all of the narrative choices they made for that narrative choices they made for that narrative choices they made for that movie were corresponding to the movie were corresponding to the movie were corresponding to the constraints that they had. Like, oh, constraints that they had. Like, oh, constraints that they had. Like, oh, they have this really neat, ornate they have this really neat, ornate they have this really neat, ornate looking letter opener. Let's make that looking letter opener. Let's make that looking letter opener. Let's make that like a knife that the villain has. And like a knife that the villain has. And like a knife that the villain has. And oh, we have this like claw foot tub. oh, we have this like claw foot tub. oh, we have this like claw foot tub. Okay, that's gonna look great in this Okay, that's gonna look great in this Okay, that's gonna look great in this scene or whatever. We have a guitar and scene or whatever. We have a guitar and scene or whatever. We have a guitar and a guitar case. Like it's so he wrote the a guitar case. Like it's so he wrote the a guitar case. Like it's so he wrote the story around what he had rather than story around what he had rather than story around what he had rather than trying to get what he needed to make trying to get what he needed to make trying to get what he needed to make some like blue sky story. some like blue sky story. some like blue sky story. >> And I feel like that's that's how people >> And I feel like that's that's how people >> And I feel like that's that's how people ought to approach game design as well ought to approach game design as well ought to approach game design as well sometimes. um you know you are you are sometimes. um you know you are you are sometimes. um you know you are you are good at writing stories make make a good at writing stories make make a good at writing stories make make a visual novel not visual novel not visual novel not >> well isn't creativity where creativity >> well isn't creativity where creativity >> well isn't creativity where creativity is where boredom and constraints you is where boredom and constraints you is where boredom and constraints you know know know >> meet and maybe you have a uh maybe you >> meet and maybe you have a uh maybe you >> meet and maybe you have a uh maybe you have the wheel or the tire from a have the wheel or the tire from a have the wheel or the tire from a bicycle and you have a stick okay now bicycle and you have a stick okay now bicycle and you have a stick okay now we're going to roll that thing around we're going to roll that thing around we're going to roll that thing around >> it reminds me of the scene in um the >> it reminds me of the scene in um the >> it reminds me of the scene in um the princess bride when Wesley is paralyzed princess bride when Wesley is paralyzed princess bride when Wesley is paralyzed and he's they're trying to storm the and he's they're trying to storm the and he's they're trying to storm the castle and He's like, "Well, I mean, castle and He's like, "Well, I mean, castle and He's like, "Well, I mean, there's no way we can do this, you know?

there's no way we can do this, you know? there's no way we can do this, you know? I mean, if we had a wheelbarrow and the I mean, if we had a wheelbarrow and the I mean, if we had a wheelbarrow and the guy's like, "Oh, we have a wheelbarrow." guy's like, "Oh, we have a wheelbarrow." guy's like, "Oh, we have a wheelbarrow." Like, why didn't you tell me we had a Like, why didn't you tell me we had a Like, why didn't you tell me we had a wheelbarrow? That changes everything, wheelbarrow? That changes everything, wheelbarrow? That changes everything, you know? Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. There's a you know? Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. There's a you know? Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. There's a game designer named Carol Mertz who's game designer named Carol Mertz who's game designer named Carol Mertz who's just released a collection of things just released a collection of things just released a collection of things called Play with Your Junk. And it's called Play with Your Junk. And it's called Play with Your Junk. And it's like, here here are some games that you like, here here are some games that you like, here here are some games that you can play with just junk that you own can play with just junk that you own can play with just junk that you own already. Uh yeah, I love things like already. Uh yeah, I love things like already. Uh yeah, I love things like that where it's we're playing within that where it's we're playing within that where it's we're playing within these tight tight constraints. these tight tight constraints. these tight tight constraints. >> But yeah, the in the book we give you >> But yeah, the in the book we give you >> But yeah, the in the book we give you some constraints and the the book itself some constraints and the the book itself some constraints and the the book itself is a constraint. It has to be stuff that is a constraint. It has to be stuff that is a constraint. It has to be stuff that you can do with a pencil and just the you can do with a pencil and just the you can do with a pencil and just the book and your own mind. book and your own mind. book and your own mind. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So there's a lot of workarounds we had >> So there's a lot of workarounds we had >> So there's a lot of workarounds we had to do just for that. Like to do just for that. Like to do just for that. Like >> randomness, for example. How do you get >> randomness, for example. How do you get >> randomness, for example. How do you get randomness built into this? And what we randomness built into this? And what we randomness built into this? And what we did was put rows and rows of dice in the did was put rows and rows of dice in the did was put rows and rows of dice in the margins randomly generated. And we say, margins randomly generated. And we say, margins randomly generated. And we say, "Think before you look at the dice, "Think before you look at the dice, "Think before you look at the dice, think of a number between 1 and 10.

think of a number between 1 and 10. think of a number between 1 and 10. Cross off that many dice and then just Cross off that many dice and then just Cross off that many dice and then just start going from there. And then you'll start going from there. And then you'll start going from there. And then you'll have like a random series and it'll be have like a random series and it'll be have like a random series and it'll be different. different. different. If you keep going, If you keep going, If you keep going, you come back to that chapter and and you come back to that chapter and and you come back to that chapter and and keep going or somebody else thinks of a keep going or somebody else thinks of a keep going or somebody else thinks of a different number, they'll have a different number, they'll have a different number, they'll have a different random sequence. different random sequence. different random sequence. >> So, >> So, >> So, >> so at the beginning of the conversation, >> so at the beginning of the conversation, >> so at the beginning of the conversation, you said that all games teach the you said that all games teach the you said that all games teach the players something like all games have to players something like all games have to players something like all games have to be educational games. And you have a be educational games. And you have a be educational games. And you have a blog post called all AAA games should blog post called all AAA games should blog post called all AAA games should also be educational games. M also be educational games. M also be educational games. M >> so this theory you said Ralph Coer's >> so this theory you said Ralph Coer's >> so this theory you said Ralph Coer's book a theory of fun calls out that fun book a theory of fun calls out that fun book a theory of fun calls out that fun is the feeling that I learned something is the feeling that I learned something is the feeling that I learned something I've been rewarded because something has I've been rewarded because something has I've been rewarded because something has been learned. As we get towards the end been learned. As we get towards the end been learned. As we get towards the end of the show here I thought it'd be of the show here I thought it'd be of the show here I thought it'd be interesting if we compared maybe the interesting if we compared maybe the interesting if we compared maybe the last two or three games each of us last two or three games each of us last two or three games each of us played that made our brains swell in played that made our brains swell in played that made our brains swell in that like oh my god I learned something that like oh my god I learned something that like oh my god I learned something and and what and why we learned about and and what and why we learned about and and what and why we learned about it. So, as an example, I'll go first. it. So, as an example, I'll go first. it. So, as an example, I'll go first. The new Indiana Jones game, AAA game, The new Indiana Jones game, AAA game, The new Indiana Jones game, AAA game, >> goes back and forth. Its game loop is >> goes back and forth. Its game loop is >> goes back and forth. Its game loop is basically climbing. So, you're running basically climbing. So, you're running basically climbing. So, you're running around climbing stuff Tomb Raider style, around climbing stuff Tomb Raider style, around climbing stuff Tomb Raider style, fighting dudes, punching punching folks, fighting dudes, punching punching folks, fighting dudes, punching punching folks, or incredibly calm, chill, walking or incredibly calm, chill, walking or incredibly calm, chill, walking around on shelves, reading stuff. Like around on shelves, reading stuff. Like around on shelves, reading stuff. Like literally the game starts with a big literally the game starts with a big literally the game starts with a big fight against a big dude and then you fight against a big dude and then you fight against a big dude and then you have to clean up the museum by picking have to clean up the museum by picking have to clean up the museum by picking up the objects that were destroyed in up the objects that were destroyed in up the objects that were destroyed in the fight and putting them back on the

the fight and putting them back on the the fight and putting them back on the shelf correctly in the museum. shelf correctly in the museum. shelf correctly in the museum. >> So I found myself much like Assassin's >> So I found myself much like Assassin's >> So I found myself much like Assassin's Creed wandering around like just reading Creed wandering around like just reading Creed wandering around like just reading plaques in a museum and I thought that plaques in a museum and I thought that plaques in a museum and I thought that was such an interesting juosition and I was such an interesting juosition and I was such an interesting juosition and I felt that that was a very educational felt that that was a very educational felt that that was a very educational game. game. game. >> Oh that's lovely. >> Oh that's lovely. >> Oh that's lovely. Well, I can I can shout out my friend's Well, I can I can shout out my friend's Well, I can I can shout out my friend's puzzle. He has a daily puzzle called puzzle. He has a daily puzzle called puzzle. He has a daily puzzle called Rattle that I Rattle that I Rattle that I >> Rattle. >> Rattle. >> Rattle. >> R A DL Equest, >> R A DL Equest, >> R A DL Equest, I believe. I believe. I believe. >> And it's a it's a word puzzle game where >> And it's a it's a word puzzle game where >> And it's a it's a word puzzle game where you're trying to match words with clues. you're trying to match words with clues. you're trying to match words with clues. It's like if you had the clues from a It's like if you had the clues from a It's like if you had the clues from a crossword crossword crossword but they were the clues were missing but they were the clues were missing but they were the clues were missing words and you had to figure out which words and you had to figure out which words and you had to figure out which uh uh uh yeah and they they proceed from the yeah and they they proceed from the yeah and they they proceed from the following word. It's kind of hard to following word. It's kind of hard to following word. It's kind of hard to explain but it's like explain but it's like explain but it's like >> I'm looking at it right now. So today's >> I'm looking at it right now. So today's >> I'm looking at it right now. So today's is from tomato to shade is from tomato to shade is from tomato to shade >> and I'm supposed to get from the word >> and I'm supposed to get from the word >> and I'm supposed to get from the word tomato to the word shade. And it looks tomato to the word shade. And it looks tomato to the word shade. And it looks like I'm supposed to get there in eight like I'm supposed to get there in eight like I'm supposed to get there in eight or nine tries.

or nine tries. or nine tries. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> And what am I supposed to type? Am I >> And what am I supposed to type? Am I >> And what am I supposed to type? Am I supposed to type a word? supposed to type a word? supposed to type a word? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That So the next word starts with uh it >> That So the next word starts with uh it >> That So the next word starts with uh it puts in the word tomato into one of the puts in the word tomato into one of the puts in the word tomato into one of the clues. clues. clues. >> There's blanks in the clues. Imagine >> There's blanks in the clues. Imagine >> There's blanks in the clues. Imagine putting the word tomato in. putting the word tomato in. putting the word tomato in. It actually does it for you. It actually does it for you. It actually does it for you. >> Okay. So all of them say tomato, but you >> Okay. So all of them say tomato, but you >> Okay. So all of them say tomato, but you have to figure out which one makes sense have to figure out which one makes sense have to figure out which one makes sense with the word tomato in there and then with the word tomato in there and then with the word tomato in there and then answer that question with a word that answer that question with a word that answer that question with a word that has the specified length. has the specified length. has the specified length. >> Oh, okay. There's a bunch of clues that >> Oh, okay. There's a bunch of clues that >> Oh, okay. There's a bunch of clues that are out of order and the next word has are out of order and the next word has are out of order and the next word has six letters and I need to figure out six letters and I need to figure out six letters and I need to figure out what that is. what that is. what that is. >> Yeah. So, I've been playing this. I >> Yeah. So, I've been playing this. I >> Yeah. So, I've been playing this. I actually haven't played today's, but actually haven't played today's, but actually haven't played today's, but I've been playing this religiously for a I've been playing this religiously for a I've been playing this religiously for a while, while, while, >> and it's really fascinating, especially >> and it's really fascinating, especially >> and it's really fascinating, especially when sometimes you get stuck and you when sometimes you get stuck and you when sometimes you get stuck and you have to solve in reverse. And it really have to solve in reverse. And it really have to solve in reverse. And it really is I just love the feeling of doing is I just love the feeling of doing is I just love the feeling of doing something in reverse, rewiring your something in reverse, rewiring your something in reverse, rewiring your brain to do the same thing, but brain to do the same thing, but brain to do the same thing, but opposite. So like when you get the power opposite. So like when you get the power opposite. So like when you get the power pellet in Pac-Man and now instead of pellet in Pac-Man and now instead of pellet in Pac-Man and now instead of running away now you're chasing or like running away now you're chasing or like running away now you're chasing or like like in some pinball games where you like in some pinball games where you like in some pinball games where you have like like black hole where you have have like like black hole where you have have like like black hole where you have a lower black back glass where the a lower black back glass where the a lower black back glass where the paddles are now hitting the ball up paddles are now hitting the ball up paddles are now hitting the ball up towards you instead of up away from you.

towards you instead of up away from you. towards you instead of up away from you. just I love that pattern and this uh just I love that pattern and this uh just I love that pattern and this uh this little puzzle web puzzle game this little puzzle web puzzle game this little puzzle web puzzle game allows me to satisfy that sometimes. allows me to satisfy that sometimes. allows me to satisfy that sometimes. >> Very cool. That is at rdle.quest. >> Definitely different than the Wordle. >> Definitely different than the Wordle. Quite challenging and is going to you're Quite challenging and is going to you're Quite challenging and is going to you're going to spend some time going to spend some time going to spend some time >> feeling your brain change and rewire >> feeling your brain change and rewire >> feeling your brain change and rewire itself as you as you learn this. itself as you as you learn this. itself as you as you learn this. >> For sure. >> For sure. >> For sure. >> Very cool. Well, thanks so much Bobby >> Very cool. Well, thanks so much Bobby >> Very cool. Well, thanks so much Bobby Lockheart for hanging out with me today. Lockheart for hanging out with me today. Lockheart for hanging out with me today. Oh, it was such a pleasure. Thanks, Oh, it was such a pleasure. Thanks, Oh, it was such a pleasure. Thanks, Scott. You can learn more about what Scott. You can learn more about what Scott. You can learn more about what Bobby's doing at Bobby Locks bobby Bobby's doing at Bobby Locks bobby Bobby's doing at Bobby Locks bobby lox.com. And you can pick up the game lox.com. And you can pick up the game lox.com. And you can pick up the game designers workbook at designers workbook at designers workbook at gamedesignersworkbook.com gamedesignersworkbook.com gamedesignersworkbook.com that he wrote along with Eric Lang. This that he wrote along with Eric Lang. This that he wrote along with Eric Lang. This has been another episode of Hansel has been another episode of Hansel has been another episode of Hansel Minutes and we'll see you again next Minutes and we'll see you again next Minutes and we'll see you again next week.