Braille Is Freedom with Bristol Braille's Ed Rogers

the idea that screen readers and I've the idea that screen readers and I've seen we we I think I've had a number of seen we we I think I've had a number of seen we we I think I've had a number of blind developers on the show and most of blind developers on the show and most of blind developers on the show and most of them have incredibly fast talking them have incredibly fast talking them have incredibly fast talking computer words is going in there computer words is going in there computer words is going in there it's like five times 10x speed and it's like five times 10x speed and it's like five times 10x speed and that's how they function. But I feel that's how they function. But I feel that's how they function. But I feel like if you were sitting at a Starbucks like if you were sitting at a Starbucks like if you were sitting at a Starbucks it might be quite challenging. it might be quite challenging. it might be quite challenging. You can't really have situational You can't really have situational You can't really have situational awareness if you have someone yapping in awareness if you have someone yapping in awareness if you have someone yapping in your ear. your ear. your ear. >> Well, you there are there are >> Well, you there are there are >> Well, you there are there are limitations to what you can do with limitations to what you can do with limitations to what you can do with screen readers. That's spelling spelling screen readers. That's spelling spelling screen readers. That's spelling spelling grammar um numeracy are much harder in grammar um numeracy are much harder in grammar um numeracy are much harder in most cases. And and that's because a most cases. And and that's because a most cases. And and that's because a screen reader doesn't do something for a screen reader doesn't do something for a screen reader doesn't do something for a blind person that it does that it could blind person that it does that it could blind person that it does that it could not also do for a sighted person. So, not also do for a sighted person. So, not also do for a sighted person. So, reading having something read to you in reading having something read to you in reading having something read to you in a computerized voice if you are blind it a computerized voice if you are blind it a computerized voice if you are blind it it there aren't it's not it there aren't it's not it there aren't it's not it's not the equivalent experience of it's not the equivalent experience of it's not the equivalent experience of reading print if you're sighted. reading print if you're sighted. reading print if you're sighted. >> Like reading a book is not the same as >> Like reading a book is not the same as >> Like reading a book is not the same as reading a book in Braille. It's not the reading a book in Braille. It's not the reading a book in Braille. It's not the same. same. same. Yeah, yeah. That's a great point. Yeah, yeah. That's a great point. Yeah, yeah. That's a great point. >> But I should note and and >> But I should note and and >> But I should note and and uh uh uh you're right. you're right. you're right. >> I am Scott Hanselman and this is another >> I am Scott Hanselman and this is another >> I am Scott Hanselman and this is another episode of Hanselminutes. Today I have episode of Hanselminutes. Today I have episode of Hanselminutes. Today I have the pleasure of chatting with Ed Rogers.

the pleasure of chatting with Ed Rogers. the pleasure of chatting with Ed Rogers. He's the founder and managing director He's the founder and managing director He's the founder and managing director of Bristol Braille. He's here to talk to of Bristol Braille. He's here to talk to of Bristol Braille. He's here to talk to me about the Canute Console Premium me about the Canute Console Premium me about the Canute Console Premium which is a fantastic new product that is which is a fantastic new product that is which is a fantastic new product that is open source for uh folks that want to open source for uh folks that want to open source for uh folks that want to use Braille to talk to their computers. use Braille to talk to their computers. use Braille to talk to their computers. How are you, sir? How are you, sir? How are you, sir? >> I'm very well, thank you and thank you >> I'm very well, thank you and thank you >> I'm very well, thank you and thank you for having me on. for having me on. for having me on. >> So, >> So, >> So, this is kind of a funny connection, but this is kind of a funny connection, but this is kind of a funny connection, but I think that for sighted people I think that for sighted people I think that for sighted people we have seen in movies a one-line tiny we have seen in movies a one-line tiny we have seen in movies a one-line tiny Braille single line of text and we kind Braille single line of text and we kind Braille single line of text and we kind of assume that there's like sighted of assume that there's like sighted of assume that there's like sighted people who use computers the regular way people who use computers the regular way people who use computers the regular way and then there's the Braille person that and then there's the Braille person that and then there's the Braille person that gets one line, it's very small, and gets one line, it's very small, and gets one line, it's very small, and there's nothing in between. there's nothing in between. there's nothing in between. But certainly, you know, sight is a is a But certainly, you know, sight is a is a But certainly, you know, sight is a is a spectrum and I was I was actually spectrum and I was I was actually spectrum and I was I was actually legally blind before I had my my LASIK legally blind before I had my my LASIK legally blind before I had my my LASIK and I relied on and still sometimes rely and I relied on and still sometimes rely and I relied on and still sometimes rely on zooming technology. on zooming technology. on zooming technology. How many people use Braille? Are they How many people use Braille? Are they How many people use Braille? Are they always completely profoundly blind, or always completely profoundly blind, or always completely profoundly blind, or is there a spectrum within that space? is there a spectrum within that space? is there a spectrum within that space? >> I don't know exactly. It's very hard to >> I don't know exactly. It's very hard to >> I don't know exactly. It's very hard to get the figures of get the figures of get the figures of for around blindness in general, for around blindness in general, for around blindness in general, actually. It's but not least cuz actually. It's but not least cuz actually. It's but not least cuz everyone defines it slightly everyone defines it slightly everyone defines it slightly differently. For differently. For differently. For legally blind is a different is legally blind is a different is legally blind is a different is different to different to different to what makes you totally blind for one what makes you totally blind for one what makes you totally blind for one application and what makes you totally application and what makes you totally application and what makes you totally blind in the case of something else. So, blind in the case of something else. So, blind in the case of something else. So, you might cannot never bother to read you might cannot never bother to read you might cannot never bother to read Braille if you have pinprick vision Braille if you have pinprick vision Braille if you have pinprick vision where you means you can always read where you means you can always read where you means you can always read print even though you definitely legally print even though you definitely legally print even though you definitely legally blind and wouldn't wouldn't drive, for blind and wouldn't wouldn't drive, for blind and wouldn't wouldn't drive, for example.

example. example. In Britain, the RNIB reckons it's In Britain, the RNIB reckons it's In Britain, the RNIB reckons it's somewhere over 20,000. somewhere over 20,000. somewhere over 20,000. So, as as a country of 65,000 million So, as as a country of 65,000 million So, as as a country of 65,000 million people, you can probably scale that. people, you can probably scale that. people, you can probably scale that. There were countries like India where There were countries like India where There were countries like India where there is significantly higher rates of there is significantly higher rates of there is significantly higher rates of blindness because of certain diseases. blindness because of certain diseases. blindness because of certain diseases. And And And we but we've we but we've we but we've when it comes to who reads Braille, it when it comes to who reads Braille, it when it comes to who reads Braille, it it's it's it's there was a real worry about 15 years there was a real worry about 15 years there was a real worry about 15 years ago that the the answer is less and less ago that the the answer is less and less ago that the the answer is less and less people read Braille regardless of how people read Braille regardless of how people read Braille regardless of how many. It's just less than less than 10 many. It's just less than less than 10 many. It's just less than less than 10 years ago, less than of course it's less years ago, less than of course it's less years ago, less than of course it's less than 20 years ago, and so on. than 20 years ago, and so on. than 20 years ago, and so on. There was a figure, I think the National There was a figure, I think the National There was a figure, I think the National Federation of the Blind in Federation of the Blind in Federation of the Blind in in in America in in America in in America had which was that in the '50s, 50% of had which was that in the '50s, 50% of had which was that in the '50s, 50% of of blind school children learn Braille, of blind school children learn Braille, of blind school children learn Braille, and now it's more like 1 in 10. and now it's more like 1 in 10. and now it's more like 1 in 10. Please don't quote me on those. It's Please don't quote me on those. It's Please don't quote me on those. It's That could be off by a decade or so, but That could be off by a decade or so, but That could be off by a decade or so, but it was it was it was it certainly it certainly entered into a it certainly it certainly entered into a it certainly it certainly entered into a decline. And then there's been a lot of decline. And then there's been a lot of decline. And then there's been a lot of projects like ours projects like ours projects like ours taking technological solutions to that taking technological solutions to that taking technological solutions to that to try and patch up some of the the vast to try and patch up some of the the vast to try and patch up some of the the vast gaps in gaps in gaps in in what you can actually use Braille for in what you can actually use Braille for in what you can actually use Braille for cuz although well saying well you but cuz although well saying well you but cuz although well saying well you but but we ought to have be ought to make but we ought to have be ought to make but we ought to have be ought to make Braille more available so that people Braille more available so that people Braille more available so that people can learn it. Well, you sure, but what can learn it. Well, you sure, but what can learn it. Well, you sure, but what do you then use it for in your real in do you then use it for in your real in do you then use it for in your real in in in your in your real life.

in in your in your real life. in in your in your real life. And there've been lots of projects And there've been lots of projects And there've been lots of projects taking the more human approach, which is taking the more human approach, which is taking the more human approach, which is to encourage people to meet up and and to encourage people to meet up and and to encourage people to meet up and and learn and learn off each other as learn and learn off each other as learn and learn off each other as opposed to learn from institutions and opposed to learn from institutions and opposed to learn from institutions and so on, which is certainly great, but so on, which is certainly great, but so on, which is certainly great, but that when suddenly the institution loses that when suddenly the institution loses that when suddenly the institution loses its funding or something, then the the its funding or something, then the the its funding or something, then the the community can just disappear, which community can just disappear, which community can just disappear, which happened over the pandemic in some happened over the pandemic in some happened over the pandemic in some cases. cases. cases. And you get a lot of stuff And you get a lot of stuff And you get a lot of stuff >> that this is largely screen reader >> that this is largely screen reader >> that this is largely screen reader technology that has caused Braille to technology that has caused Braille to technology that has caused Braille to fall off? The idea that screen readers fall off? The idea that screen readers fall off? The idea that screen readers and I've seen we we I think I've had a and I've seen we we I think I've had a and I've seen we we I think I've had a number of blind developers on the show number of blind developers on the show number of blind developers on the show and most of them have incredibly fast and most of them have incredibly fast and most of them have incredibly fast talking computer words. It's going in talking computer words. It's going in talking computer words. It's going in there there there It's like five times 10x speed and It's like five times 10x speed and It's like five times 10x speed and that's how they function. But I feel that's how they function. But I feel that's how they function. But I feel like if you were sitting at a Starbucks, like if you were sitting at a Starbucks, like if you were sitting at a Starbucks, it might be quite challenging. it might be quite challenging. it might be quite challenging. You can't really have situational You can't really have situational You can't really have situational awareness if you have someone yapping in awareness if you have someone yapping in awareness if you have someone yapping in your ear. your ear. your ear. >> Oh, yeah, there there are there are >> Oh, yeah, there there are there are >> Oh, yeah, there there are there are limitations to what you can do with limitations to what you can do with limitations to what you can do with screen readers. That's spelling screen readers. That's spelling screen readers. That's spelling spelling, grammar, numeracy are much spelling, grammar, numeracy are much spelling, grammar, numeracy are much harder in most cases. harder in most cases. harder in most cases. And and that's because a screen reader And and that's because a screen reader And and that's because a screen reader doesn't do something for a blind person doesn't do something for a blind person doesn't do something for a blind person that it does that it couldn't also do that it does that it couldn't also do that it does that it couldn't also do for sighted person. So, reading having for sighted person. So, reading having for sighted person. So, reading having something read to you in a computerized something read to you in a computerized something read to you in a computerized voice if you are blind, it it there voice if you are blind, it it there voice if you are blind, it it there aren't it's not aren't it's not aren't it's not it's not the equivalent experience of it's not the equivalent experience of it's not the equivalent experience of reading print if you're sighted.

reading print if you're sighted. reading print if you're sighted. >> I was going to make that point. Like an >> I was going to make that point. Like an >> I was going to make that point. Like an audio book is not the same. audio book is not the same. audio book is not the same. Yeah, yeah. That's a great point. Yeah, yeah. That's a great point. Yeah, yeah. That's a great point. >> But I should note and and >> But I should note and and >> But I should note and and uh uh uh you're right that it is regardless of you're right that it is regardless of you're right that it is regardless of the point I'm about to make, which is the point I'm about to make, which is the point I'm about to make, which is actually technically actually technically actually technically complimentary, but regardless of that, complimentary, but regardless of that, complimentary, but regardless of that, there there is certainly a strong there there is certainly a strong there there is certainly a strong uh uh uh there is certainly a lot of people who there is certainly a lot of people who there is certainly a lot of people who immediately respond by saying surely immediately respond by saying surely immediately respond by saying surely technology and therefore text-to-speech technology and therefore text-to-speech technology and therefore text-to-speech has made Braille redundant, not quite has made Braille redundant, not quite has made Braille redundant, not quite realizing often that Braille is a form realizing often that Braille is a form realizing often that Braille is a form of technology and in fact a a a of technology and in fact a a a of technology and in fact a a a electromechanical form of technology electromechanical form of technology electromechanical form of technology where the where you have a thousand pins where the where you have a thousand pins where the where you have a thousand pins moving up and down um moving up and down um moving up and down um uh with almost total accuracy is an uh with almost total accuracy is an uh with almost total accuracy is an extremely advanced form of technology extremely advanced form of technology extremely advanced form of technology and and Braille itself is much is is is and and Braille itself is much is is is and and Braille itself is much is is is significantly younger than print. It is significantly younger than print. It is significantly younger than print. It is technology. But, yeah, there is a there technology. But, yeah, there is a there technology. But, yeah, there is a there is a sense that other forms of digital is a sense that other forms of digital is a sense that other forms of digital technology have undermined Braille and technology have undermined Braille and technology have undermined Braille and therefore maybe we don't need to bother therefore maybe we don't need to bother therefore maybe we don't need to bother teaching it because it's a bit easier to teaching it because it's a bit easier to teaching it because it's a bit easier to just have something read to you. The just have something read to you. The just have something read to you. The question is would you want your child to question is would you want your child to question is would you want your child to have the opportunity to to read print have the opportunity to to read print have the opportunity to to read print and therefore Braille and therefore Braille and therefore Braille or or just have them or or just have them or or just have them spoken to by a computer. So, the point spoken to by a computer. So, the point spoken to by a computer. So, the point about it being complementary is that in about it being complementary is that in about it being complementary is that in the modern world it's not that much use the modern world it's not that much use the modern world it's not that much use having everything in paper.

having everything in paper. having everything in paper. You need Braille displays, which is what You need Braille displays, which is what You need Braille displays, which is what we build, and a Braille display has to we build, and a Braille display has to we build, and a Braille display has to be fed by something and has to be fed by be fed by something and has to be fed by be fed by something and has to be fed by a computer. And those are unless you a computer. And those are unless you a computer. And those are unless you have a totally integrated device. We have a totally integrated device. We have a totally integrated device. We have some integrated devices, but unless have some integrated devices, but unless have some integrated devices, but unless you have a totally integrated device, you have a totally integrated device, you have a totally integrated device, that takes a screen reader. So, the that takes a screen reader. So, the that takes a screen reader. So, the screen reader speaks, but the screen screen reader speaks, but the screen screen reader speaks, but the screen reader also drives the Braille display. reader also drives the Braille display. reader also drives the Braille display. So, the screen reader itself is what So, the screen reader itself is what So, the screen reader itself is what enables enables enables digital Braille. digital Braille. digital Braille. >> You know, as as you say that, it kind of >> You know, as as you say that, it kind of >> You know, as as you say that, it kind of immediately kind of becomes obvious to immediately kind of becomes obvious to immediately kind of becomes obvious to me, but it wasn't immediately obvious. me, but it wasn't immediately obvious. me, but it wasn't immediately obvious. You just connected two things. You're You just connected two things. You're You just connected two things. You're absolutely right because the the screen absolutely right because the the screen absolutely right because the the screen has a has a has a in in programming we'd call it like a in in programming we'd call it like a in in programming we'd call it like a DOM, an object model that describes like DOM, an object model that describes like DOM, an object model that describes like a calculator. a calculator. a calculator. And the DOM has to decide if I'm going And the DOM has to decide if I'm going And the DOM has to decide if I'm going to present a calculator on the screen to to present a calculator on the screen to to present a calculator on the screen to a Braille display, what does someone a Braille display, what does someone a Braille display, what does someone want to see? Do they want to see a grid want to see? Do they want to see a grid want to see? Do they want to see a grid of one through nine organized in a of one through nine organized in a of one through nine organized in a square or do they want to see the square or do they want to see the square or do they want to see the numbers one through nine in a row? numbers one through nine in a row? numbers one through nine in a row? I could it could be preference, it could I could it could be preference, it could I could it could be preference, it could be convention, who knows? be convention, who knows? be convention, who knows? >> The answer to that particular one of >> The answer to that particular one of >> The answer to that particular one of course has been until we invented the course has been until we invented the course has been until we invented the multi-line Braille display, you had to multi-line Braille display, you had to multi-line Braille display, you had to be a line regardless of what it's be a line regardless of what it's be a line regardless of what it's supposed to be.

supposed to be. supposed to be. But, yes, it's the it's it's the same But, yes, it's the it's it's the same But, yes, it's the it's it's the same the data is in the is in the same place the data is in the is in the same place the data is in the is in the same place and it needs to be served both through and it needs to be served both through and it needs to be served both through TTS and to a Braille display and that is TTS and to a Braille display and that is TTS and to a Braille display and that is usually done with the same screen usually done with the same screen usually done with the same screen reader. reader. reader. But, you you some people might switch, But, you you some people might switch, But, you you some people might switch, but the off going off on a but the off going off on a but the off going off on a screen reader tangent cuz it is screen reader tangent cuz it is screen reader tangent cuz it is interesting. There there are different interesting. There there are different interesting. There there are different ways that that's done and ways that that's done and ways that that's done and to use jaws and video and brltty as to use jaws and video and brltty as to use jaws and video and brltty as three different examples. three different examples. three different examples. Jaws being is being around for a while Jaws being is being around for a while Jaws being is being around for a while and that's the commercial one and that I and that's the commercial one and that I and that's the commercial one and that I believe I'm not an expert in this stuff. believe I'm not an expert in this stuff. believe I'm not an expert in this stuff. Because it predates a lot of them more Because it predates a lot of them more Because it predates a lot of them more useful API's on on systems like Windows useful API's on on systems like Windows useful API's on on systems like Windows it it it it would do a lot of work getting stuff it would do a lot of work getting stuff it would do a lot of work getting stuff off the video feed where something like off the video feed where something like off the video feed where something like NVDA NVDA NVDA relies very much on that DOM model and relies very much on that DOM model and relies very much on that DOM model and on the accessibility that is built into on the accessibility that is built into on the accessibility that is built into applications. And then you have brltty applications. And then you have brltty applications. And then you have brltty which is straightforwardly an evolution which is straightforwardly an evolution which is straightforwardly an evolution of of running from the command line. So of of running from the command line. So of of running from the command line. So it just reads text in the console and it just reads text in the console and it just reads text in the console and doesn't doesn't doesn't doesn't require any accessibility doesn't require any accessibility doesn't require any accessibility features per se. It shows you what's on features per se. It shows you what's on features per se. It shows you what's on the console.

the console. the console. >> Okay, so let's reset for folks that are >> Okay, so let's reset for folks that are >> Okay, so let's reset for folks that are listening cuz a lot of folks are hearing listening cuz a lot of folks are hearing listening cuz a lot of folks are hearing this audibly and can't see you and can't this audibly and can't see you and can't this audibly and can't see you and can't see the the canoe see the the canoe see the the canoe console premium behind you on your desk. console premium behind you on your desk. console premium behind you on your desk. So Braille is this is this writing So Braille is this is this writing So Braille is this is this writing system that blind and visually impaired system that blind and visually impaired system that blind and visually impaired folks use. It's six six dots. Each folks use. It's six six dots. Each folks use. It's six six dots. Each letter is six dots. It's three dots in letter is six dots. It's three dots in letter is six dots. It's three dots in two columns. So two columns of three two columns. So two columns of three two columns. So two columns of three dots each. dots each. dots each. What you're a sighted person, what What you're a sighted person, what What you're a sighted person, what caused you to feel like this is a caused you to feel like this is a caused you to feel like this is a problem that you are and your your group problem that you are and your your group problem that you are and your your group is is ready to solve? is is ready to solve? is is ready to solve? >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> If you dwell on that for a minute, it's >> If you dwell on that for a minute, it's >> If you dwell on that for a minute, it's six dots and it represents the entire six dots and it represents the entire six dots and it represents the entire alphabet, every alphabet. Pretty much alphabet, every alphabet. Pretty much alphabet, every alphabet. Pretty much every alphabet in the world. There are every alphabet in the world. There are every alphabet in the world. There are some some cases where they haven't got some some cases where they haven't got some some cases where they haven't got round to it yet, but round to it yet, but round to it yet, but you know, there's Tibetan Braille you know, there's Tibetan Braille you know, there's Tibetan Braille as as an example. as as an example. as as an example. >> Oh, wow. >> Oh, wow. >> Oh, wow. >> And music notation and and various other >> And music notation and and various other >> And music notation and and various other systems for computer science for for for systems for computer science for for for systems for computer science for for for for number space work for number space work for number space work and it's all the same six dots and it's and it's all the same six dots and it's and it's all the same six dots and it's all spaced a tenth of an inch between all spaced a tenth of an inch between all spaced a tenth of an inch between each dot. It fits under the pad of your each dot. It fits under the pad of your each dot. It fits under the pad of your finger and it was invented by a 15 year finger and it was invented by a 15 year finger and it was invented by a 15 year old French boy 200 years ago. Isn't that old French boy 200 years ago. Isn't that old French boy 200 years ago. Isn't that incredible?

incredible? incredible? >> I mean it makes me want to learn it, >> I mean it makes me want to learn it, >> I mean it makes me want to learn it, actually. actually. actually. >> Well, exactly. And it's it's so >> Well, exactly. And it's it's so >> Well, exactly. And it's it's so absolutely clean. There's no type absolutely clean. There's no type absolutely clean. There's no type There's no typefaces. Well, there is There's no typefaces. Well, there is There's no typefaces. Well, there is somewhat a typeface in the sense that somewhat a typeface in the sense that somewhat a typeface in the sense that some countries like Japan use a slightly some countries like Japan use a slightly some countries like Japan use a slightly smaller braille cell than some other smaller braille cell than some other smaller braille cell than some other countries, but not meaningfully any countries, but not meaningfully any countries, but not meaningfully any typefaces. typefaces. typefaces. A- And everything is arranged in a grid. A- And everything is arranged in a grid. A- And everything is arranged in a grid. It's just got this It's just got this It's just got this austere beauty to it. And it was the I austere beauty to it. And it was the I austere beauty to it. And it was the I think the first the first um binary you think the first the first um binary you think the first the first um binary you know, byte-based system uh because it's know, byte-based system uh because it's know, byte-based system uh because it's a six-byte it's a six-bit byte. a six-byte it's a six-bit byte. a six-byte it's a six-bit byte. Numbers, for example, are represented Numbers, for example, are represented Numbers, for example, are represented with the first 10 letters of the with the first 10 letters of the with the first 10 letters of the alphabet with a hash sign put in front alphabet with a hash sign put in front alphabet with a hash sign put in front of it. Or it's not literally a hash of it. Or it's not literally a hash of it. Or it's not literally a hash sign, but represented in text as a hash sign, but represented in text as a hash sign, but represented in text as a hash sign. And And that's just very sign. And And that's just very sign. And And that's just very appealing. And then you put in the the appealing. And then you put in the the appealing. And then you put in the the challenge the engineering challenge of, challenge the engineering challenge of, challenge the engineering challenge of, "Okay, but those have got to be dots "Okay, but those have got to be dots "Okay, but those have got to be dots that are a 20th of an inch high, that are a 20th of an inch high, that are a 20th of an inch high, perfectly rounded. They are a 10th of an perfectly rounded. They are a 10th of an perfectly rounded. They are a 10th of an inch between each dot. inch between each dot. inch between each dot. You need to have hundreds of those in You need to have hundreds of those in You need to have hundreds of those in the case of the the case of the the case of the uh Canute Scientific behind me. You need uh Canute Scientific behind me. You need uh Canute Scientific behind me. You need to have 2,160 of those dots. They need to have 2,160 of those dots. They need to have 2,160 of those dots. They need to move up and down with reasonable to move up and down with reasonable to move up and down with reasonable speed speed speed and almost total accuracy and almost total accuracy and almost total accuracy 100,000 times.

100,000 times. 100,000 times. Go. Go. Go. >> So, this is a fun engineering problem. >> So, this is a fun engineering problem. >> So, this is a fun engineering problem. >> It's a fun engineering problem. But it's >> It's a fun engineering problem. But it's >> It's a fun engineering problem. But it's And then you add on that that the people And then you add on that that the people And then you add on that that the people are being charged sometimes tens of are being charged sometimes tens of are being charged sometimes tens of thousands of dollars for this stuff. And thousands of dollars for this stuff. And thousands of dollars for this stuff. And you think, "Come on. Surely there's you think, "Come on. Surely there's you think, "Come on. Surely there's something." The answer is there is a lot something." The answer is there is a lot something." The answer is there is a lot of somethings, and they're all really of somethings, and they're all really of somethings, and they're all really hard to do. hard to do. hard to do. >> Historically, I have seen those one-line >> Historically, I have seen those one-line >> Historically, I have seen those one-line like 40-character, maybe maybe 60, maybe like 40-character, maybe maybe 60, maybe like 40-character, maybe maybe 60, maybe 80 single lines. It's just a 80 single lines. It's just a 80 single lines. It's just a a black strip. And I I And And And And a black strip. And I I And And And And a black strip. And I I And And And And And they move and they they they hop up And they move and they they they hop up And they move and they they they hop up and down. and down. and down. Are they all mechanical? Like there's Are they all mechanical? Like there's Are they all mechanical? Like there's lots of fascinating things happening in lots of fascinating things happening in lots of fascinating things happening in the haptic space, in the tactile space. the haptic space, in the tactile space. the haptic space, in the tactile space. Are you physically moving 360 Are you physically moving 360 Are you physically moving 360 refreshable pin cells up and down refreshable pin cells up and down refreshable pin cells up and down mechanically? Or are there new ways to mechanically? Or are there new ways to mechanically? Or are there new ways to think about how I can make a pip or a think about how I can make a pip or a think about how I can make a pip or a dot go up and be felt and then go and dot go up and be felt and then go and dot go up and be felt and then go and then retract? then retract? then retract? >> They're all mechanical. >> They're all mechanical. >> They're all mechanical. I suppose I suppose I suppose you're asking about deformation of a you're asking about deformation of a you're asking about deformation of a surface as a potential option. surface as a potential option. surface as a potential option. >> guess that would be a way to look at it. >> guess that would be a way to look at it. >> guess that would be a way to look at it. >> Yeah, the problem with that is that that >> Yeah, the problem with that is that that >> Yeah, the problem with that is that that is a much harder challenge than than is a much harder challenge than than is a much harder challenge than than mechanical because the deformation then mechanical because the deformation then mechanical because the deformation then would have to deform into a perfect would have to deform into a perfect would have to deform into a perfect rounded dot, at which point you might as rounded dot, at which point you might as rounded dot, at which point you might as well have a pin.

well have a pin. well have a pin. >> And I assume people have an expectation. >> And I assume people have an expectation. >> And I assume people have an expectation. They have an expectation of what it They have an expectation of what it They have an expectation of what it should feel like. should feel like. should feel like. >> Yeah, you mean if and if your >> Yeah, you mean if and if your >> Yeah, you mean if and if your manufacturing is is everyone's manufacturing is is everyone's manufacturing is is everyone's everyone's manufacturing is slightly everyone's manufacturing is slightly everyone's manufacturing is slightly different, so different, so different, so ours is is very hard rail is very ours is is very hard rail is very ours is is very hard rail is very somewhat sharp if you're if you press somewhat sharp if you're if you press somewhat sharp if you're if you press hard on it. A lot of people like it, but hard on it. A lot of people like it, but hard on it. A lot of people like it, but everyone's is slightly different, so the everyone's is slightly different, so the everyone's is slightly different, so the idea that it's possible to create a idea that it's possible to create a idea that it's possible to create a deformable surface which deformable surface which deformable surface which applies to Braille is an unnerving idea. applies to Braille is an unnerving idea. applies to Braille is an unnerving idea. It's probably not the best place to It's probably not the best place to It's probably not the best place to start if you come up with a great start if you come up with a great start if you come up with a great >> I'm just kind of wondering if there's >> I'm just kind of wondering if there's >> I'm just kind of wondering if there's like an e-ink display for Braille in the like an e-ink display for Braille in the like an e-ink display for Braille in the sense of like LCDs have a purpose, and sense of like LCDs have a purpose, and sense of like LCDs have a purpose, and and then e-ink came out and we as and then e-ink came out and we as and then e-ink came out and we as sighted people said, "Oh, this is sighted people said, "Oh, this is sighted people said, "Oh, this is delightful for reading." Is there some delightful for reading." Is there some delightful for reading." Is there some other thinking or or creativity around other thinking or or creativity around other thinking or or creativity around how one could deform a how one could deform a how one could deform a >> It well that if you if you go back to >> It well that if you if you go back to >> It well that if you if you go back to the pin technology, there are a number the pin technology, there are a number the pin technology, there are a number of different ways. And those ones you're of different ways. And those ones you're of different ways. And those ones you're talking about which have been around talking about which have been around talking about which have been around since the '80s or something, that's a since the '80s or something, that's a since the '80s or something, that's a piezoelectric cell, so each one of those piezoelectric cell, so each one of those piezoelectric cell, so each one of those has a strip of every every one of those has a strip of every every one of those has a strip of every every one of those dots has a strip about 4 in long, I dots has a strip about 4 in long, I dots has a strip about 4 in long, I think, of a piezoelectric, which is a think, of a piezoelectric, which is a think, of a piezoelectric, which is a ceramic material. When you pass a very ceramic material. When you pass a very ceramic material. When you pass a very high voltage, very low current through high voltage, very low current through high voltage, very low current through it, it it warps very slightly and moves it, it it warps very slightly and moves it, it it warps very slightly and moves the pin up and down. This it isn't hold the pin up and down. This it isn't hold the pin up and down. This it isn't hold much, you know, you can press it back much, you know, you can press it back much, you know, you can press it back down again. It it's not got much force, down again. It it's not got much force, down again. It it's not got much force, but that works. This works very well.

but that works. This works very well. but that works. This works very well. It's just that those those piezoelectric It's just that those those piezoelectric It's just that those those piezoelectric strips are very expensive. strips are very expensive. strips are very expensive. Our technology actually doesn't have any Our technology actually doesn't have any Our technology actually doesn't have any pins at all. So, we have 2,160 pins at all. So, we have 2,160 pins at all. So, we have 2,160 dots, but no pins at all. We only have dots, but no pins at all. We only have dots, but no pins at all. We only have 1,000 moving parts in the whole device 1,000 moving parts in the whole device 1,000 moving parts in the whole device cuz we use a series of octagons. cuz we use a series of octagons. cuz we use a series of octagons. Um so, we only have 100 motors in there, Um so, we only have 100 motors in there, Um so, we only have 100 motors in there, and two of those are vibration motors we and two of those are vibration motors we and two of those are vibration motors we don't actually tend to use. So, 98 don't actually tend to use. So, 98 don't actually tend to use. So, 98 motors. So, we use uh 720 octagons, motors. So, we use uh 720 octagons, motors. So, we use uh 720 octagons, which you which you spin which you which you spin which you which you spin into new positions. Uh and the pin The into new positions. Uh and the pin The into new positions. Uh and the pin The pins are actually Well, there are no pins are actually Well, there are no pins are actually Well, there are no pins. The dots are embossed around the pins. The dots are embossed around the pins. The dots are embossed around the outside of these octagons. outside of these octagons. outside of these octagons. Um we we we essentially remove the part Um we we we essentially remove the part Um we we we essentially remove the part of the Braille display which causes the of the Braille display which causes the of the Braille display which causes the most cost, which is individually most cost, which is individually most cost, which is individually actuating six different dots for each actuating six different dots for each actuating six different dots for each cell. And we only have 98 actuators and cell. And we only have 98 actuators and cell. And we only have 98 actuators and a lot of little clockwork parts. And we a lot of little clockwork parts. And we a lot of little clockwork parts. And we build that in in Britain build that in in Britain build that in in Britain in our own workshop. I'm here now. It's in our own workshop. I'm here now. It's in our own workshop. I'm here now. It's about 700 sq ft, and we build the about 700 sq ft, and we build the about 700 sq ft, and we build the world's most affordable Braille cell world's most affordable Braille cell world's most affordable Braille cell technology. It's about 12 lb. That's technology. It's about 12 lb. That's technology. It's about 12 lb. That's what, $17 per Braille cell, which what, $17 per Braille cell, which what, $17 per Braille cell, which doesn't sound that little. But, when you doesn't sound that little. But, when you doesn't sound that little. But, when you think how much it costs to build these think how much it costs to build these think how much it costs to build these and to ship them around, and to ship them around, and to ship them around, and we are as I should I should and we are as I should I should and we are as I should I should emphasize, we're a very small company.

emphasize, we're a very small company. emphasize, we're a very small company. So, we we're really the the minnows So, we we're really the the minnows So, we we're really the the minnows swimming swimming with sharks here. And swimming swimming with sharks here. And swimming swimming with sharks here. And then we have then we have then we have >> So, >> So, >> So, you're saying that a Braille workstation you're saying that a Braille workstation you're saying that a Braille workstation with one line might cost thousands of with one line might cost thousands of with one line might cost thousands of dollars. I mean, it might be like used dollars. I mean, it might be like used dollars. I mean, it might be like used car money. car money. car money. And you've got nine times the data, nine And you've got nine times the data, nine And you've got nine times the data, nine times the lines, and a screen And you times the lines, and a screen And you times the lines, and a screen And you also have a screen. It's worth noting also have a screen. It's worth noting also have a screen. It's worth noting you also have a high-contrast 13-in you also have a high-contrast 13-in you also have a high-contrast 13-in monitor because not everyone has full, monitor because not everyone has full, monitor because not everyone has full, you know, blindness. They may want that you know, blindness. They may want that you know, blindness. They may want that that top screen. that top screen. that top screen. >> Well, it's also easier >> Well, it's also easier >> Well, it's also easier Uh if um whoever you are, you're going Uh if um whoever you are, you're going Uh if um whoever you are, you're going to work with a sighted person, and to work with a sighted person, and to work with a sighted person, and >> Oh, yes. Two sha >> Oh, yes. Two sha >> Oh, yes. Two sha >> Uh so, >> Uh so, >> Uh so, on the the um the on the the um the on the the um the the Canute Scientific and on the Canute the Canute Scientific and on the Canute the Canute Scientific and on the Canute Console before that the Canute Console Console before that the Canute Console Console before that the Canute Console is a modular design. The Canute is a modular design. The Canute is a modular design. The Canute Scientific is the one that we're just Scientific is the one that we're just Scientific is the one that we're just releasing, and they both They both have releasing, and they both They both have releasing, and they both They both have very They're both very similar in their very They're both very similar in their very They're both very similar in their in their outlook. But, the in the reason in their outlook. But, the in the reason in their outlook. But, the in the reason the way we build them with the the way we build them with the the way we build them with the open-source ethos and so on, but they open-source ethos and so on, but they open-source ethos and so on, but they both have a monitor, which as you say is both have a monitor, which as you say is both have a monitor, which as you say is 13 in and high contrast, which 13 in and high contrast, which 13 in and high contrast, which synchronizes exactly the same data to synchronizes exactly the same data to synchronizes exactly the same data to the braille display, which is different.

the braille display, which is different. the braille display, which is different. So, normally have a braille display and So, normally have a braille display and So, normally have a braille display and and either that is being it is reading a and either that is being it is reading a and either that is being it is reading a corner of a visual screen or it has no corner of a visual screen or it has no corner of a visual screen or it has no visual screen and you can plug one in, visual screen and you can plug one in, visual screen and you can plug one in, but it's but you always get more data but it's but you always get more data but it's but you always get more data visually or none at all visually or none at all visually or none at all than you get in braille. than you get in braille. than you get in braille. But we've designed something from But we've designed something from But we've designed something from scratch which runs mostly in the command scratch which runs mostly in the command scratch which runs mostly in the command line, although you can open desktop line, although you can open desktop line, although you can open desktop applications now. applications now. applications now. Which is designed to to make tables Which is designed to to make tables Which is designed to to make tables uh charts, diagrams even, and uh of uh charts, diagrams even, and uh of uh charts, diagrams even, and uh of course prose course prose course prose and programming and so on and programming and so on and programming and so on have exactly the same layout. Because have exactly the same layout. Because have exactly the same layout. Because when we you were saying people are when we you were saying people are when we you were saying people are perhaps familiar with the sight of a perhaps familiar with the sight of a perhaps familiar with the sight of a single line braille display. single line braille display. single line braille display. Those are great. They have been very Those are great. They have been very Those are great. They have been very important. important. important. Text is not actually a linear medium. Text is not actually a linear medium. Text is not actually a linear medium. It it has structure. Especially tables It it has structure. Especially tables It it has structure. Especially tables are the easiest way of describing that are the easiest way of describing that are the easiest way of describing that of of persuading people of that because of of persuading people of that because of of persuading people of that because tables obviously have structure and you tables obviously have structure and you tables obviously have structure and you if you if you only present tabular data if you if you only present tabular data if you if you only present tabular data horizontally one line at a time, then horizontally one line at a time, then horizontally one line at a time, then that rather excludes all the that rather excludes all the that rather excludes all the possibilities that you might want to possibilities that you might want to possibilities that you might want to your might be looking at data which is your might be looking at data which is your might be looking at data which is vertical or at a di- at a diagonal. You vertical or at a di- at a diagonal. You vertical or at a di- at a diagonal. You know, a lot of table data is presented know, a lot of table data is presented know, a lot of table data is presented diagonally, which is something you don't diagonally, which is something you don't diagonally, which is something you don't you're not going to get however you mess you're not going to get however you mess you're not going to get however you mess around with that data.

around with that data. around with that data. But also just prose. Prose is not as But also just prose. Prose is not as But also just prose. Prose is not as linear as as um the txt format would linear as as um the txt format would linear as as um the txt format would make you think. It's a make you think. It's a make you think. It's a it it it it it it how stuff lines up how stuff lines up how stuff lines up top over tail uh informs how we read top over tail uh informs how we read top over tail uh informs how we read stuff, how the headings interact with stuff, how the headings interact with stuff, how the headings interact with the rest of it. the rest of it. the rest of it. >> I mean, certainly a a simplistic but a >> I mean, certainly a a simplistic but a >> I mean, certainly a a simplistic but a good example that just clicked for me good example that just clicked for me good example that just clicked for me would be poetry, which you might want to would be poetry, which you might want to would be poetry, which you might want to move line I move forward and backwards move line I move forward and backwards move line I move forward and backwards within or explore a line and then move within or explore a line and then move within or explore a line and then move forward and then go I want to look at forward and then go I want to look at forward and then go I want to look at that line again. that line again. that line again. Before they would have to back up in Before they would have to back up in Before they would have to back up in their linear single line and now they their linear single line and now they their linear single line and now they can just move their hands up a line. can just move their hands up a line. can just move their hands up a line. >> And very similarly, music, sheet music, >> And very similarly, music, sheet music, >> And very similarly, music, sheet music, when you might have different you might when you might have different you might when you might have different you might have something for one hand on one line have something for one hand on one line have something for one hand on one line and another hand on the other line and and another hand on the other line and and another hand on the other line and you might have the vocals underneath you might have the vocals underneath you might have the vocals underneath that. Uh but of course you can't if you that. Uh but of course you can't if you that. Uh but of course you can't if you don't have multiple lines. So we're don't have multiple lines. So we're don't have multiple lines. So we're really just So we we we created our really just So we we we created our really just So we we we created our first display based off this technology first display based off this technology first display based off this technology though. though. though. Wearing octagonal discs if you like, Wearing octagonal discs if you like, Wearing octagonal discs if you like, which is the very different and almost which is the very different and almost which is the very different and almost an entirely different category to normal an entirely different category to normal an entirely different category to normal braille displays. We created that in braille displays. We created that in braille displays. We created that in 2019-2020 and released it as an ebook 2019-2020 and released it as an ebook 2019-2020 and released it as an ebook reader purely for the pleasure of reader purely for the pleasure of reader purely for the pleasure of reading and then we moved into making reading and then we moved into making reading and then we moved into making workstations so that people can workstations so that people can workstations so that people can use the open source software that we've use the open source software that we've use the open source software that we've been building to solve their own been building to solve their own been building to solve their own problems and share that with other problems and share that with other problems and share that with other people. And the problems being something people. And the problems being something people. And the problems being something like I want to be an astrophysicist. I like I want to be an astrophysicist. I like I want to be an astrophysicist. I have all the talent and the enthusiasm have all the talent and the enthusiasm have all the talent and the enthusiasm for that, but I keep getting given these for that, but I keep getting given these for that, but I keep getting given these inaccessible things and I I I need the inaccessible things and I I I need the inaccessible things and I I I need the tools to solve my own problems. And then tools to solve my own problems. And then tools to solve my own problems. And then I want to present it to my sighted I want to present it to my sighted I want to present it to my sighted colleagues in a way where we can both

colleagues in a way where we can both colleagues in a way where we can both interact with it equally. interact with it equally. interact with it equally. And that's where the Canute Scientific And that's where the Canute Scientific And that's where the Canute Scientific and the Canute Console before that came and the Canute Console before that came and the Canute Console before that came from. from. from. >> The These discs, um I want to make sure >> The These discs, um I want to make sure >> The These discs, um I want to make sure that I can visualize this and we can that I can visualize this and we can that I can visualize this and we can certainly go online and learn more about certainly go online and learn more about certainly go online and learn more about it. Uh there's there's both the Canute it. Uh there's there's both the Canute it. Uh there's there's both the Canute Scientific and the All the Bristol Main Scientific and the All the Bristol Main Scientific and the All the Bristol Main the Bristol Braille Main site has all of the Bristol Braille Main site has all of the Bristol Braille Main site has all of this as well as videos explaining it, this as well as videos explaining it, this as well as videos explaining it, but is it like a die or a dice that is but is it like a die or a dice that is but is it like a die or a dice that is rotating or is it a disc in a single rotating or is it a disc in a single rotating or is it a disc in a single plane that is rotating in a circle? plane that is rotating in a circle? plane that is rotating in a circle? >> It's it's rotating in a single plane. So >> It's it's rotating in a single plane. So >> It's it's rotating in a single plane. So it's a it's an octic is is um 80 it's a it's an octic is is um 80 it's a it's an octic is is um 80 octagons on one on one bar, one steel octagons on one on one bar, one steel octagons on one on one bar, one steel bar. And those are spun and that gives bar. And those are spun and that gives bar. And those are spun and that gives you 40 characters. Two octagons braille you 40 characters. Two octagons braille you 40 characters. Two octagons braille cell. If you think of a braille cell. If you think of a braille cell. If you think of a braille character, as you said, six dots in two character, as you said, six dots in two character, as you said, six dots in two columns, but that's actually two columns columns, but that's actually two columns columns, but that's actually two columns of three dots. Two of three dots. Two of three dots. Two >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> four eight eight possible combinations >> four eight eight possible combinations >> four eight eight possible combinations for each half of a braille cell, for each half of a braille cell, for each half of a braille cell, therefore it fits around an octagon. therefore it fits around an octagon. therefore it fits around an octagon. >> That is very clever. That is very >> That is very clever. That is very >> That is very clever. That is very clever. And the thing that I think is clever. And the thing that I think is clever. And the thing that I think is really significant and I think that the really significant and I think that the really significant and I think that the all my listeners, sighted or otherwise, all my listeners, sighted or otherwise, all my listeners, sighted or otherwise, will appreciate is that it is will appreciate is that it is will appreciate is that it is delightfully repairable. Like you delightfully repairable. Like you delightfully repairable. Like you believe very strongly in the right to believe very strongly in the right to believe very strongly in the right to repair, field replaceable parts. Like if repair, field replaceable parts. Like if repair, field replaceable parts. Like if you're blind and your thing breaks, you you're blind and your thing breaks, you you're blind and your thing breaks, you want to be able to get it fixed. You want to be able to get it fixed. You want to be able to get it fixed. You don't have to ship it off and wait 6 to don't have to ship it off and wait 6 to don't have to ship it off and wait 6 to 8 weeks or longer for your lifeline to 8 weeks or longer for your lifeline to 8 weeks or longer for your lifeline to be repaired. It should be open source, be repaired. It should be open source, be repaired. It should be open source, it should be repairable, it shouldn't be it should be repairable, it shouldn't be it should be repairable, it shouldn't be a big giant company controls this and a big giant company controls this and a big giant company controls this and only one person knows how to fix it.

only one person knows how to fix it. only one person knows how to fix it. >> When we released our first product, the >> When we released our first product, the >> When we released our first product, the Canute 360, very much in the Canute 360, very much in the Canute 360, very much in the conventional in the conventional way conventional in the conventional way conventional in the conventional way that you do. It was a product and if you that you do. It was a product and if you that you do. It was a product and if you need it need it need it we hope it won't break, but if it if if we hope it won't break, but if it if if we hope it won't break, but if it if if it does, we'll repair it for you. Don't it does, we'll repair it for you. Don't it does, we'll repair it for you. Don't worry about it. And it has a warranty. worry about it. And it has a warranty. worry about it. And it has a warranty. If it breaks after your warranty, in If it breaks after your warranty, in If it breaks after your warranty, in principle, then you'll have to come and principle, then you'll have to come and principle, then you'll have to come and get another one or pay get another one or pay get another one or pay pay us. pay us. pay us. In practice, what ended up happening was In practice, what ended up happening was In practice, what ended up happening was we just fixed everyone's machines we just fixed everyone's machines we just fixed everyone's machines because because because each of these machines took a very long each of these machines took a very long each of these machines took a very long time to build and we sweat literal time to build and we sweat literal time to build and we sweat literal literal blood and sweat tears and tears literal blood and sweat tears and tears literal blood and sweat tears and tears would go into this and neither of those would go into this and neither of those would go into this and neither of those three tears is an exaggeration. three tears is an exaggeration. three tears is an exaggeration. We wanted all these machines to work and We wanted all these machines to work and We wanted all these machines to work and people would say, "Oh, I kept getting people would say, "Oh, I kept getting people would say, "Oh, I kept getting stuck in customs. I can't even get it stuck in customs. I can't even get it stuck in customs. I can't even get it back from you from the Netherlands to to back from you from the Netherlands to to back from you from the Netherlands to to to Britain because to Britain because to Britain because can I possibly fix it here? I'm not I can I possibly fix it here? I'm not I can I possibly fix it here? I'm not I mean mean mean my my father's pretty good at this. He my my father's pretty good at this. He my my father's pretty good at this. He him and I could work on it together." him and I could work on it together." him and I could work on it together." And we're all right, that's we'll send And we're all right, that's we'll send And we're all right, that's we'll send you our repair manual. So we never you our repair manual. So we never you our repair manual. So we never formalized that until the Canute formalized that until the Canute formalized that until the Canute scientific came about and we we're going scientific came about and we we're going scientific came about and we we're going to really formalize it. We we've we've to really formalize it. We we've we've to really formalize it. We we've we've redesigned the chassis so it's all can redesigned the chassis so it's all can redesigned the chassis so it's all can be taken apart. It is not a simple task.

be taken apart. It is not a simple task. be taken apart. It is not a simple task. It's not something you should do for It's not something you should do for It's not something you should do for fun. This is not like one of those fun. This is not like one of those fun. This is not like one of those framework laptops where it's designed to framework laptops where it's designed to framework laptops where it's designed to be popped apart and be popped apart and be popped apart and change it up. It's like I think of it change it up. It's like I think of it change it up. It's like I think of it like a car. You spend a lot of money on like a car. You spend a lot of money on like a car. You spend a lot of money on this. You have the right to try and fix this. You have the right to try and fix this. You have the right to try and fix that. If you if your carburetor gets that. If you if your carburetor gets that. If you if your carburetor gets gets clogged up, you have the right to gets clogged up, you have the right to gets clogged up, you have the right to to sort that thing out even though it's to sort that thing out even though it's to sort that thing out even though it's not simple. This is a thousand moving not simple. This is a thousand moving not simple. This is a thousand moving parts. It's not simple, but you have the parts. It's not simple, but you have the parts. It's not simple, but you have the right to do it and we will help you do right to do it and we will help you do right to do it and we will help you do that. that. that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And importantly, >> And importantly, >> And importantly, much like with cars, where you have a much like with cars, where you have a much like with cars, where you have a where you have the most where you have the most where you have the most complex part is the is the engine and complex part is the is the engine and complex part is the is the engine and the engine in a modern car can run for the engine in a modern car can run for the engine in a modern car can run for 150,000 miles or more, 150,000 miles or more, 150,000 miles or more, but people have to replace their cars but people have to replace their cars but people have to replace their cars far more often than that because all the far more often than that because all the far more often than that because all the electrics keep going wrong or go out of electrics keep going wrong or go out of electrics keep going wrong or go out of date and you know, and all of this date and you know, and all of this date and you know, and all of this stuff. So, I really dislike that. The stuff. So, I really dislike that. The stuff. So, I really dislike that. The Braille display is the expensive part of Braille display is the expensive part of Braille display is the expensive part of this this this and it's the part which is hopefully and it's the part which is hopefully and it's the part which is hopefully unchanging. unchanging. unchanging. What's not is the electronics underneath What's not is the electronics underneath What's not is the electronics underneath it, the Raspberry Pi 5, which controls it, the Raspberry Pi 5, which controls it, the Raspberry Pi 5, which controls that. We have ports on here which are that. We have ports on here which are that. We have ports on here which are not only modular in the sense of we'll not only modular in the sense of we'll not only modular in the sense of we'll sell you a modular replacement in the sell you a modular replacement in the sell you a modular replacement in the future. No, they're lit- they're future. No, they're lit- they're future. No, they're lit- they're literally hubs, which you can unplug and literally hubs, which you can unplug and literally hubs, which you can unplug and buy another one off Amazon if you wanted buy another one off Amazon if you wanted buy another one off Amazon if you wanted to and stick that one on instead. So, to and stick that one on instead. So, to and stick that one on instead. So, it's really as much as we can possibly it's really as much as we can possibly it's really as much as we can possibly make it, the person who owns it owns it.

make it, the person who owns it owns it. make it, the person who owns it owns it. >> So, you said a Raspberry Pi. So, in the >> So, you said a Raspberry Pi. So, in the >> So, you said a Raspberry Pi. So, in the past, you would use embedded operating past, you would use embedded operating past, you would use embedded operating systems, you know, but you're using open systems, you know, but you're using open systems, you know, but you're using open source hardware to make this happen and source hardware to make this happen and source hardware to make this happen and have there been any challenges with that have there been any challenges with that have there been any challenges with that or did it just work? or did it just work? or did it just work? >> Actually, we in the past we used a >> Actually, we in the past we used a >> Actually, we in the past we used a Raspberry Pi 2. We've got two in here. Raspberry Pi 2. We've got two in here. Raspberry Pi 2. We've got two in here. We've got the Raspberry Pi Zero We've got the Raspberry Pi Zero We've got the Raspberry Pi Zero controlling the built-in operating controlling the built-in operating controlling the built-in operating system on the display itself. Um, and system on the display itself. Um, and system on the display itself. Um, and then then then and then we've got a Pi 5 on the and then we've got a Pi 5 on the and then we've got a Pi 5 on the scientific, which is for doing the scientific, which is for doing the scientific, which is for doing the applications. That's that's a hangover applications. That's that's a hangover applications. That's that's a hangover just because the Pi Zeros are so just because the Pi Zeros are so just because the Pi Zeros are so fabulously cheap. They're a great way of fabulously cheap. They're a great way of fabulously cheap. They're a great way of building embedded systems. building embedded systems. building embedded systems. No, it's it's No, it's it's No, it's it's it's obviously I say obviously, but to it's obviously I say obviously, but to it's obviously I say obviously, but to everyone that that works with systems, everyone that that works with systems, everyone that that works with systems, it's easier to use an open system. It it it's easier to use an open system. It it it's easier to use an open system. It it It's a continues to be a mystery to me It's a continues to be a mystery to me It's a continues to be a mystery to me why people continue to use a Android 8 why people continue to use a Android 8 why people continue to use a Android 8 or something as the basis of extremely or something as the basis of extremely or something as the basis of extremely expensive equipment and then they and expensive equipment and then they and expensive equipment and then they and then you speak to the manufacturer about then you speak to the manufacturer about then you speak to the manufacturer about can we upgrade this at some point? can we upgrade this at some point? can we upgrade this at some point? They're like, "Oh, we're trying. We're They're like, "Oh, we're trying. We're They're like, "Oh, we're trying. We're trying." Well, trying." Well, trying." Well, what why didn't you just use Debian? what why didn't you just use Debian? what why didn't you just use Debian? You know, you're not running apps.

You know, you're not running apps. You know, you're not running apps. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, we're just we're just running the >> Yeah, we're just we're just running the >> Yeah, we're just we're just running the Raspberry Pi version of Debian on this Raspberry Pi version of Debian on this Raspberry Pi version of Debian on this and if that that's There's problems, but and if that that's There's problems, but and if that that's There's problems, but none of the problems are to do with the none of the problems are to do with the none of the problems are to do with the operating system. That's a solved operating system. That's a solved operating system. That's a solved problem. People keep making a problem by problem. People keep making a problem by problem. People keep making a problem by locking it down. If you don't lock it locking it down. If you don't lock it locking it down. If you don't lock it down, and the other the problem I think down, and the other the problem I think down, and the other the problem I think companies have is they feel like if companies have is they feel like if companies have is they feel like if they're open someone's going to go and they're open someone's going to go and they're open someone's going to go and eat their supper. It's really hard eat their supper. It's really hard eat their supper. It's really hard building braille displays. No one really building braille displays. No one really building braille displays. No one really wants to do it. No one's going to steal wants to do it. No one's going to steal wants to do it. No one's going to steal our stuff that that easily. And if our stuff that that easily. And if our stuff that that easily. And if anyone come steals the the Canute design anyone come steals the the Canute design anyone come steals the the Canute design and starts making it cheaper than us, and starts making it cheaper than us, and starts making it cheaper than us, we'll probably be their best customer. we'll probably be their best customer. we'll probably be their best customer. We'll buy it back again and sell it on We'll buy it back again and sell it on We'll buy it back again and sell it on again, you know. It's again, you know. It's again, you know. It's It's better to be open on this stuff It's better to be open on this stuff It's better to be open on this stuff because when you are, you have a richer because when you are, you have a richer because when you are, you have a richer ecosystem which solves your problems ecosystem which solves your problems ecosystem which solves your problems faster from a purely personal faster from a purely personal faster from a purely personal um selfish point of view. um selfish point of view. um selfish point of view. >> Yeah, that's such a positive and >> Yeah, that's such a positive and >> Yeah, that's such a positive and reasonable like this is why technology reasonable like this is why technology reasonable like this is why technology is supposed to exist. That's such a is supposed to exist. That's such a is supposed to exist. That's such a reasonable perspective. Like, "Oh, no, reasonable perspective. Like, "Oh, no, reasonable perspective. Like, "Oh, no, someone made our product 10 times someone made our product 10 times someone made our product 10 times cheaper and now more blind people get a cheaper and now more blind people get a cheaper and now more blind people get a great experience." Right? That would be great experience." Right? That would be great experience." Right? That would be fantastic. That would be, you know, you fantastic. That would be, you know, you fantastic. That would be, you know, you might be like, "Oh, shoot, our little might be like, "Oh, shoot, our little might be like, "Oh, shoot, our little company is going to change, but more company is going to change, but more company is going to change, but more blind people get this available." Like blind people get this available." Like blind people get this available." Like I've mentioned it before we started I've mentioned it before we started I've mentioned it before we started recording that I use an open source recording that I use an open source recording that I use an open source artificial pancreas. So, I use open artificial pancreas. So, I use open artificial pancreas. So, I use open source software and we use commercial source software and we use commercial source software and we use commercial hardware and we're working on things hardware and we're working on things hardware and we're working on things like open source insulin pumps. And I'm like open source insulin pumps. And I'm like open source insulin pumps. And I'm always thinking to myself, "Man, I'm in always thinking to myself, "Man, I'm in always thinking to myself, "Man, I'm in the northern hemisphere. I am so lucky the northern hemisphere. I am so lucky the northern hemisphere. I am so lucky to have these things [clears throat] to have these things [clears throat] to have these things [clears throat] available and there's so many diabetics available and there's so many diabetics available and there's so many diabetics that don't have these." So, from from that don't have these." So, from from that don't have these." So, from from your perspective, I can only assume that your perspective, I can only assume that your perspective, I can only assume that you're thinking every single blind you're thinking every single blind you're thinking every single blind person should have the option to have

person should have the option to have person should have the option to have one of these in their lives. We just one of these in their lives. We just one of these in their lives. We just need to figure out how to get them made need to figure out how to get them made need to figure out how to get them made and get them to them if they want them. and get them to them if they want them. and get them to them if they want them. >> Yeah, I mean, don't get me wrong. If >> Yeah, I mean, don't get me wrong. If >> Yeah, I mean, don't get me wrong. If someone steals our stuff, it would upset someone steals our stuff, it would upset someone steals our stuff, it would upset me deeply because that me deeply because that me deeply because that It's upsetting because they stole it. It's upsetting because they stole it. It's upsetting because they stole it. They could have just asked them to do They could have just asked them to do They could have just asked them to do it, right? Right? it, right? Right? it, right? Right? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But, I am actually very proud that we >> But, I am actually very proud that we >> But, I am actually very proud that we build it as about as affordably as as as build it as about as affordably as as as build it as about as affordably as as as it can be built given the capital we it can be built given the capital we it can be built given the capital we have here in Britain. And we you don't have here in Britain. And we you don't have here in Britain. And we you don't need to to try and find someone who will need to to try and find someone who will need to to try and find someone who will costs in order to build cheaper costs in order to build cheaper costs in order to build cheaper equipment. Sometimes when you're working equipment. Sometimes when you're working equipment. Sometimes when you're working with with with I don't know I don't know I don't know paying someone paying someone a paying someone paying someone a paying someone paying someone a reasonable hourly rate reasonable hourly rate reasonable hourly rate of over 100,000 pounds or whatever or a of over 100,000 pounds or whatever or a of over 100,000 pounds or whatever or a living wage is is going to is not the living wage is is going to is not the living wage is is going to is not the major problem that keeps the cost of major problem that keeps the cost of major problem that keeps the cost of complex equipment up. It's the support complex equipment up. It's the support complex equipment up. It's the support it's the it's the design of in designing it's the it's the design of in designing it's the it's the design of in designing it better. it better. it better. And a lot of that stuff can be And a lot of that stuff can be And a lot of that stuff can be ameliorated in other ways. ameliorated in other ways. ameliorated in other ways. >> Yeah, that's a great point. I'm curious >> Yeah, that's a great point. I'm curious >> Yeah, that's a great point. I'm curious also I've been spending I'm a coder of also I've been spending I'm a coder of also I've been spending I'm a coder of course and I spend a lot of time now course and I spend a lot of time now course and I spend a lot of time now doing coding with with LLMs and I use a doing coding with with LLMs and I use a doing coding with with LLMs and I use a lot of voice.

lot of voice. lot of voice. And you mentioned that you a lot of And you mentioned that you a lot of And you mentioned that you a lot of blind folks work at a terminal. A blind folks work at a terminal. A blind folks work at a terminal. A terminal lends itself of course to a terminal lends itself of course to a terminal lends itself of course to a great experience. Have you had any great experience. Have you had any great experience. Have you had any feedback that that a a nine row larger feedback that that a a nine row larger feedback that that a a nine row larger braille display plus a coding LLM plus a braille display plus a coding LLM plus a braille display plus a coding LLM plus a terminal kind of changes the experience terminal kind of changes the experience terminal kind of changes the experience for blind developers? Cuz it feels like for blind developers? Cuz it feels like for blind developers? Cuz it feels like the perfect device for a blind the perfect device for a blind the perfect device for a blind developer. developer. developer. >> It it's the console which is the the >> It it's the console which is the the >> It it's the console which is the the sister product of this one that came sister product of this one that came sister product of this one that came before it. The console is a dock where before it. The console is a dock where before it. The console is a dock where you dock the braille you dock a can you you dock the braille you dock a can you you dock the braille you dock a can you braille reader which I said was a braille reader which I said was a braille reader which I said was a product released in 2019 into this to product released in 2019 into this to product released in 2019 into this to make it into work workstation then we make it into work workstation then we make it into work workstation then we redesigned it to be more open redesigned it to be more open redesigned it to be more open literally openable in the sense of it literally openable in the sense of it literally openable in the sense of it can be dismantled and then it became the can be dismantled and then it became the can be dismantled and then it became the scientific. The the console was just so scientific. The the console was just so scientific. The the console was just so named because it was designed for named because it was designed for named because it was designed for developers working in the command line developers working in the command line developers working in the command line and it's a really nice environment. It's and it's a really nice environment. It's and it's a really nice environment. It's especially a nicer environment for especially a nicer environment for especially a nicer environment for working with a LLM than it is for working with a LLM than it is for working with a LLM than it is for working in the code that you wrote working in the code that you wrote working in the code that you wrote yourself of course but it's yourself of course but it's yourself of course but it's anything where you get to have the anything where you get to have the anything where you get to have the context of seeing of seeing the context of seeing of seeing the context of seeing of seeing the of seeing the full function of seeing the full function of seeing the full function it has obvious advantage you don't have it has obvious advantage you don't have it has obvious advantage you don't have to have build that model up in your head to have build that model up in your head to have build that model up in your head and it is especially difficult with and it is especially difficult with and it is especially difficult with Python and and languages which insist Python and and languages which insist Python and and languages which insist upon upon upon certain forms of white space. Because certain forms of white space. Because certain forms of white space. Because you can't you can't you can't that means you can't as a developer that means you can't as a developer that means you can't as a developer decide to strip all the white space out decide to strip all the white space out decide to strip all the white space out because it works better on your braille because it works better on your braille because it works better on your braille display and then or or you know, you display and then or or you know, you display and then or or you know, you can't get away with doing it your way as can't get away with doing it your way as can't get away with doing it your way as a braille reader that doesn't need

a braille reader that doesn't need a braille reader that doesn't need indentation. indentation. indentation. It won't run. It won't run. It won't run. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It won't run. >> It won't run. >> It won't run. So So So >> I mean I was thinking about YAML on a >> I mean I was thinking about YAML on a >> I mean I was thinking about YAML on a braille display would be like the braille display would be like the braille display would be like the ultimate challenge. ultimate challenge. ultimate challenge. >> This application behind >> This application behind >> This application behind >> Find us? This is the >> Find us? This is the >> Find us? This is the >> Yeah. This is the launcher menu which is >> Yeah. This is the launcher menu which is >> Yeah. This is the launcher menu which is itself simply a YAML file which is piped itself simply a YAML file which is piped itself simply a YAML file which is piped to our to our to our one of our functions. So we've built a one of our functions. So we've built a one of our functions. So we've built a whole set of functions which enable whole set of functions which enable whole set of functions which enable someone to build applications just by someone to build applications just by someone to build applications just by writing YAML files. So you can write a writing YAML files. So you can write a writing YAML files. So you can write a YAML file for a grid, for a for a grid, YAML file for a grid, for a for a grid, YAML file for a grid, for a for a grid, for a diagram, for a table or for a for a diagram, for a table or for a for a diagram, for a table or for a um um um a menu of course and and forms. I say a a menu of course and and forms. I say a a menu of course and and forms. I say a table, I don't think you'd do it for table, I don't think you'd do it for table, I don't think you'd do it for table. But and of course you you don't table. But and of course you you don't table. But and of course you you don't necessarily want to write your own YAML necessarily want to write your own YAML necessarily want to write your own YAML files, you might want to give you might files, you might want to give you might files, you might want to give you might want to pipe some CSV to that so you can want to pipe some CSV to that so you can want to pipe some CSV to that so you can generate the YAML from that. But generate the YAML from that. But generate the YAML from that. But the idea is we want people to throw the idea is we want people to throw the idea is we want people to throw together solutions very quickly. And together solutions very quickly. And together solutions very quickly. And that's that's where we have to find our that's that's where we have to find our that's that's where we have to find our strength because we're a small strength because we're a small strength because we're a small organization. What we are hoping is we organization. What we are hoping is we organization. What we are hoping is we want to find mainstream partners want to find mainstream partners want to find mainstream partners who want to roll out ex- blind who want to roll out ex- blind who want to roll out ex- blind accessible maker spaces. That's our accessible maker spaces. That's our accessible maker spaces. That's our That's the reason we're calling it the That's the reason we're calling it the That's the reason we're calling it the scientific I've got 40-pin a 40-pin out scientific I've got 40-pin a 40-pin out scientific I've got 40-pin a 40-pin out here on the the side of this one because here on the the side of this one because here on the the side of this one because we want we want to be plugging in we want we want to be plugging in we want we want to be plugging in sensors and oscilloscopes and robotic sensors and oscilloscopes and robotic sensors and oscilloscopes and robotic arms and so on.

arms and so on. arms and so on. We 3D print many of the components and We 3D print many of the components and We 3D print many of the components and we've been working with the we've been working with the we've been working with the Cleveland Center in Ohio to investigate Cleveland Center in Ohio to investigate Cleveland Center in Ohio to investigate letting uh 3D printing be more letting uh 3D printing be more letting uh 3D printing be more accessible. But that's what I'm really accessible. But that's what I'm really accessible. But that's what I'm really hoping for is to meet organizations who hoping for is to meet organizations who hoping for is to meet organizations who are mainstream and and so they they're are mainstream and and so they they're are mainstream and and so they they're not from our industry not from our industry not from our industry but they want to experiment with making but they want to experiment with making but they want to experiment with making their spaces accessible, their spaces accessible, their spaces accessible, and we can work together because there and we can work together because there and we can work together because there is a whole community of blind people who is a whole community of blind people who is a whole community of blind people who already experimenting with this and can already experimenting with this and can already experimenting with this and can can work so fast if if given the tools can work so fast if if given the tools can work so fast if if given the tools and and the space to do it in. and and the space to do it in. and and the space to do it in. >> How does the word get out? Is it Is it >> How does the word get out? Is it Is it >> How does the word get out? Is it Is it word of mouth? Is it podcast? Is it word of mouth? Is it podcast? Is it word of mouth? Is it podcast? Is it YouTube's? Because if I feel like if I YouTube's? Because if I feel like if I YouTube's? Because if I feel like if I am blind, and I'd love to hear from from am blind, and I'd love to hear from from am blind, and I'd love to hear from from listeners, listeners, listeners, and I heard about this and I heard about this and I heard about this I I need this now. Like in my diabetes I I need this now. Like in my diabetes I I need this now. Like in my diabetes community, people hear about it by word community, people hear about it by word community, people hear about it by word of mouth. They go, "Oh, of mouth. They go, "Oh, of mouth. They go, "Oh, this is what I need." Or you remember this is what I need." Or you remember this is what I need." Or you remember that wheelchair that would go from four that wheelchair that would go from four that wheelchair that would go from four wheels to two and it would allow people wheels to two and it would allow people wheels to two and it would allow people in a wheelchair to like stand on their in a wheelchair to like stand on their in a wheelchair to like stand on their on their tippy-toes because the will go on their tippy-toes because the will go on their tippy-toes because the will go upstairs. Like as soon as the word comes upstairs. Like as soon as the word comes upstairs. Like as soon as the word comes out about that, it's like, "Oh, I must out about that, it's like, "Oh, I must out about that, it's like, "Oh, I must have this in my life." Do people learn have this in my life." Do people learn have this in my life." Do people learn about about Bristol Braille and then about about Bristol Braille and then about about Bristol Braille and then just immediately reach out? Have you had just immediately reach out? Have you had just immediately reach out? Have you had amazing stories of enthusiastic people amazing stories of enthusiastic people amazing stories of enthusiastic people who are like, "This is it. I need it."

who are like, "This is it. I need it." who are like, "This is it. I need it." >> Yeah, we had a I had a call yesterday at >> Yeah, we had a I had a call yesterday at >> Yeah, we had a I had a call yesterday at 2:00 in the morning local time for the 2:00 in the morning local time for the 2:00 in the morning local time for the calling. It wasn't It was perfectly calling. It wasn't It was perfectly calling. It wasn't It was perfectly reasonable my time. He was just very reasonable my time. He was just very reasonable my time. He was just very enthused. He'd heard us on a podcast, enthused. He'd heard us on a podcast, enthused. He'd heard us on a podcast, and that was really great. and that was really great. and that was really great. We We We had We talked amongst other We We We had We talked amongst other We We We had We talked amongst other things at great length about Niki Lauda, things at great length about Niki Lauda, things at great length about Niki Lauda, but you know, you go off on tangents. We but you know, you go off on tangents. We but you know, you go off on tangents. We won't go into the Niki Lauda won't go into the Niki Lauda won't go into the Niki Lauda conversation right now. Formula 1 conversation right now. Formula 1 conversation right now. Formula 1 champion for those who who don't know. champion for those who who don't know. champion for those who who don't know. And now, but yeah, that And now, but yeah, that And now, but yeah, that I But I hope whenever we talk about it, I But I hope whenever we talk about it, I But I hope whenever we talk about it, we I I need to get round to telling you we I I need to get round to telling you we I I need to get round to telling you what the difference is that are what the difference is that are what the difference is that are disadvantages of our technology as well disadvantages of our technology as well disadvantages of our technology as well because because because >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I I hope that when people when we talk >> I I hope that when people when we talk >> I I hope that when people when we talk about it, it comes across very clearly about it, it comes across very clearly about it, it comes across very clearly that we aren't proposing that we're that we aren't proposing that we're that we aren't proposing that we're better than the other multi-line better than the other multi-line better than the other multi-line displays which might be more expensive displays which might be more expensive displays which might be more expensive but have their own features. We're but have their own features. We're but have their own features. We're proposing that we have a different proposing that we have a different proposing that we have a different philosophy based around empowering philosophy based around empowering philosophy based around empowering people to own their own technology, even people to own their own technology, even people to own their own technology, even if sometimes it the technology you own if sometimes it the technology you own if sometimes it the technology you own is kind of clunky or chunkier and it may is kind of clunky or chunkier and it may is kind of clunky or chunkier and it may it makes a a fun noise when it refreshes it makes a a fun noise when it refreshes it makes a a fun noise when it refreshes and so on and so forth. It is yours and so on and so forth. It is yours and so on and so forth. It is yours and you could have afforded it.

and you could have afforded it. and you could have afforded it. Uh and that honesty does get us some Uh and that honesty does get us some Uh and that honesty does get us some people coming up and and just having people coming up and and just having people coming up and and just having very long conversations and we then if very long conversations and we then if very long conversations and we then if they buy, we build custom applications they buy, we build custom applications they buy, we build custom applications for each of those customers who buys for each of those customers who buys for each of those customers who buys into our premium at least. And for into our premium at least. And for into our premium at least. And for someone who hasn't bought a premium, we someone who hasn't bought a premium, we someone who hasn't bought a premium, we certainly still listen to what they want certainly still listen to what they want certainly still listen to what they want and try and build it with as soon as we and try and build it with as soon as we and try and build it with as soon as we can. can. can. But the short answer to how most people But the short answer to how most people But the short answer to how most people find out about this is events. find out about this is events. find out about this is events. So we So we So we it won't really be that surprising to it won't really be that surprising to it won't really be that surprising to know that Braille displays are something know that Braille displays are something know that Braille displays are something that you tend to want to touch uh to get that you tend to want to touch uh to get that you tend to want to touch uh to get to get a real feel for. So we we try and to get a real feel for. So we we try and to get a real feel for. So we we try and do as many events as we can. We do we do do as many events as we can. We do we do do as many events as we can. We do we do something like two two a month. something like two two a month. something like two two a month. >> Oh, wow. >> Oh, wow. >> Oh, wow. >> And when we can. >> And when we can. >> And when we can. But of course that becomes that becomes But of course that becomes that becomes But of course that becomes that becomes difficult for a very small company when difficult for a very small company when difficult for a very small company when these events are all over the world. these events are all over the world. these events are all over the world. >> Yeah, indeed. You're sighted, but I >> Yeah, indeed. You're sighted, but I >> Yeah, indeed. You're sighted, but I assume you read Braille and what does assume you read Braille and what does assume you read Braille and what does that feel like? that feel like? that feel like? >> Well, you you can read Braille and you >> Well, you you can read Braille and you >> Well, you you can read Braille and you can see Braille. So you can read Braille can see Braille. So you can read Braille can see Braille. So you can read Braille visually. visually. visually. >> it too. You're right. >> it too. You're right. >> it too. You're right. >> Yeah. And it will depend. For me, I >> Yeah. And it will depend. For me, I >> Yeah. And it will depend. For me, I I tend to do both.

I tend to do both. I tend to do both. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Because >> Because >> Because because re- because re- because re- reading is easier to get a vague idea reading is easier to get a vague idea reading is easier to get a vague idea for where to look. for where to look. for where to look. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Because I am because I am highly sighted >> Because I am because I am highly sighted >> Because I am because I am highly sighted dependent if you like, uh sight dependent if you like, uh sight dependent if you like, uh sight dependent. dependent. dependent. But it's very hard to pick out dot But it's very hard to pick out dot But it's very hard to pick out dot errors. So you use your finger to spot errors. So you use your finger to spot errors. So you use your finger to spot whether there's a mistake. Cuz of course whether there's a mistake. Cuz of course whether there's a mistake. Cuz of course one of the main purposes of me reading one of the main purposes of me reading one of the main purposes of me reading Braille Braille Braille is quality checking the devices and is quality checking the devices and is quality checking the devices and sending it back to have a rib uh replace sending it back to have a rib uh replace sending it back to have a rib uh replace that's what we call a column of Braille. that's what we call a column of Braille. that's what we call a column of Braille. That's our that's our smallest module. That's our that's our smallest module. That's our that's our smallest module. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Because the motor is a bit laggy or >> Because the motor is a bit laggy or >> Because the motor is a bit laggy or something like that. So that that you something like that. So that that you something like that. So that that you really have to rely on both sight and really have to rely on both sight and really have to rely on both sight and touch to do that. So that as a sighted touch to do that. So that as a sighted touch to do that. So that as a sighted person person person it really depends on the on the the it really depends on the on the the it really depends on the on the the device you're reading and ours is very device you're reading and ours is very device you're reading and ours is very easy to touch read whether you're easy to touch read whether you're easy to touch read whether you're sighted or not and it also it's been sighted or not and it also it's been sighted or not and it also it's been made hard because I saw literally the made hard because I saw literally the made hard because I saw literally the bell the bell dots are hard which they bell the bell dots are hard which they bell the bell dots are hard which they normally they're much softer for another normally they're much softer for another normally they're much softer for another devices because we worked a lot with devices because we worked a lot with devices because we worked a lot with people who were diabetic in our early people who were diabetic in our early people who were diabetic in our early years and that causes neuropathy which years and that causes neuropathy which years and that causes neuropathy which means means means you may have learned Braille but you you may have learned Braille but you you may have learned Braille but you haven't really been getting on with it haven't really been getting on with it haven't really been getting on with it much these days because it's not quite much these days because it's not quite much these days because it's not quite as easy anymore.

as easy anymore. as easy anymore. >> Yeah, diabetes the leading cause of >> Yeah, diabetes the leading cause of >> Yeah, diabetes the leading cause of blindness and certainly blindness and certainly blindness and certainly the thing that is awful about it is that the thing that is awful about it is that the thing that is awful about it is that your fingers go numb as well. So yes, your fingers go numb as well. So yes, your fingers go numb as well. So yes, hard Braille would be far easier for a hard Braille would be far easier for a hard Braille would be far easier for a a blind person who has become blind a blind person who has become blind a blind person who has become blind because of diabetes. because of diabetes. because of diabetes. Does your brain click and change in some Does your brain click and change in some Does your brain click and change in some way when you start like when you're way when you start like when you're way when you start like when you're learning a quote unquote foreign learning a quote unquote foreign learning a quote unquote foreign language you you do it you translate in language you you do it you translate in language you you do it you translate in your head and then at some point it your head and then at some point it your head and then at some point it clicks. So whether you're reading clicks. So whether you're reading clicks. So whether you're reading Braille sighted or whether you're Braille sighted or whether you're Braille sighted or whether you're feeling it feeling it feeling it I'm just I'm just I'm just it seems like I mean like Americans are it seems like I mean like Americans are it seems like I mean like Americans are very fascinated with like learning like very fascinated with like learning like very fascinated with like learning like American sign language like it's always American sign language like it's always American sign language like it's always a good idea to know a little bit of like a good idea to know a little bit of like a good idea to know a little bit of like sign language. I know there's BSL, sign language. I know there's BSL, sign language. I know there's BSL, there's ASL over here. there's ASL over here. there's ASL over here. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Is there is there any value in in a >> Is there is there any value in in a >> Is there is there any value in in a sighted developer or a sighted person sighted developer or a sighted person sighted developer or a sighted person thinking about Braille because I want to thinking about Braille because I want to thinking about Braille because I want to I'm thinking out loud here but you know I'm thinking out loud here but you know I'm thinking out loud here but you know if a blind person and a sighted person if a blind person and a sighted person if a blind person and a sighted person are equally talented what tooling is are equally talented what tooling is are equally talented what tooling is unfairly slowing the blind person down unfairly slowing the blind person down unfairly slowing the blind person down the blind developer or the blind the blind developer or the blind the blind developer or the blind knowledge worker down and what could I knowledge worker down and what could I knowledge worker down and what could I do as a sighted person to make tools do as a sighted person to make tools do as a sighted person to make tools that can interface with something like a that can interface with something like a that can interface with something like a Canute Scientific to eliminate that gap.

Canute Scientific to eliminate that gap. Canute Scientific to eliminate that gap. >> Well, the second half of that first then >> Well, the second half of that first then >> Well, the second half of that first then the second half was about the the the the second half was about the the the the second half was about the the the gap and and that is on whether the data gap and and that is on whether the data gap and and that is on whether the data is inherently visual or not because if is inherently visual or not because if is inherently visual or not because if the data is inherently visual then there the data is inherently visual then there the data is inherently visual then there is an inherent disadvantage if you're is an inherent disadvantage if you're is an inherent disadvantage if you're asking someone to look at a if you're asking someone to look at a if you're asking someone to look at a if you're asking someone to look at a a JPEG of a asking someone to look at a a JPEG of a asking someone to look at a a JPEG of a family photo there's a lot of detail family photo there's a lot of detail family photo there's a lot of detail that's there's there's mountains that go that's there's there's mountains that go that's there's there's mountains that go down to ridiculously level of of grain down to ridiculously level of of grain down to ridiculously level of of grain in the background of that. There are in the background of that. There are in the background of that. There are means of doing that through tactile means of doing that through tactile means of doing that through tactile graphics, but they are not equal. graphics, but they are not equal. graphics, but they are not equal. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> They're not an equal experience. They're >> They're not an equal experience. They're >> They're not an equal experience. They're different. They're not necessarily different. They're not necessarily different. They're not necessarily worse, but they are much less detailed. worse, but they are much less detailed. worse, but they are much less detailed. Braille, though, Braille, though, Braille, though, is equal in the sense that someone can is equal in the sense that someone can is equal in the sense that someone can learn to read at as fast. The It's been learn to read at as fast. The It's been learn to read at as fast. The It's been measured uh in sense people have done measured uh in sense people have done measured uh in sense people have done studies and the the the the full the way studies and the the the the full the way studies and the the the the full the way that the data is um that the data is um that the data is um remembered, the sort of proactivity of remembered, the sort of proactivity of remembered, the sort of proactivity of of remembering it when you read with of remembering it when you read with of remembering it when you read with Braille or print is about the same and Braille or print is about the same and Braille or print is about the same and so on and so forth. So, it is identical so on and so forth. So, it is identical so on and so forth. So, it is identical essentially for practical purposes. So, essentially for practical purposes. So, essentially for practical purposes. So, if if if uh if your data is textual or numeric, uh if your data is textual or numeric, uh if your data is textual or numeric, the most important thing is not is is to the most important thing is not is is to the most important thing is not is is to is to note that actually underlying this is to note that actually underlying this is to note that actually underlying this it is textual and numeric data and not it is textual and numeric data and not it is textual and numeric data and not to make it unnecessarily to bake in some to make it unnecessarily to bake in some to make it unnecessarily to bake in some visuals.

visuals. visuals. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> If you're showing someone a chart, give >> If you're showing someone a chart, give >> If you're showing someone a chart, give them the underlying data so that they them the underlying data so that they them the underlying data so that they can read the data and possibly, if they can read the data and possibly, if they can read the data and possibly, if they have a cute scientific, generate their have a cute scientific, generate their have a cute scientific, generate their own chart from that data in a way that own chart from that data in a way that own chart from that data in a way that works for them. So, that would be what I works for them. So, that would be what I works for them. So, that would be what I would say. I I've forgotten the first would say. I I've forgotten the first would say. I I've forgotten the first part of that, though. part of that, though. part of that, though. >> Well, I think the how does one's brain >> Well, I think the how does one's brain >> Well, I think the how does one's brain click? Like I feel like when I when I click? Like I feel like when I when I click? Like I feel like when I when I did ASL, we taught our kids baby sign did ASL, we taught our kids baby sign did ASL, we taught our kids baby sign language. So, when they're when the language. So, when they're when the language. So, when they're when the children can't speak for the first two children can't speak for the first two children can't speak for the first two or three years of their life, you can or three years of their life, you can or three years of their life, you can communicate with them quite effectively communicate with them quite effectively communicate with them quite effectively with sign language. And when you with sign language. And when you with sign language. And when you interact with a deaf customer, I when I interact with a deaf customer, I when I interact with a deaf customer, I when I was doing you know, working at a at a was doing you know, working at a at a was doing you know, working at a at a restaurant, I found that to be to be restaurant, I found that to be to be restaurant, I found that to be to be very helpful. I could see less useful very helpful. I could see less useful very helpful. I could see less useful reasons for me to know Braille, but you reasons for me to know Braille, but you reasons for me to know Braille, but you as a sighted person being able to know as a sighted person being able to know as a sighted person being able to know Braille, I'm wondering how that kind of Braille, I'm wondering how that kind of Braille, I'm wondering how that kind of clicked, if it activated the foreign clicked, if it activated the foreign clicked, if it activated the foreign language part of your brain or what language part of your brain or what language part of your brain or what happened. happened. happened. >> It It doesn't because uh Braille is >> It It doesn't because uh Braille is >> It It doesn't because uh Braille is everywhere around the world everywhere around the world everywhere around the world is in that language. So, it's a it's a is in that language. So, it's a it's a is in that language. So, it's a it's a different code for the language. It is different code for the language. It is different code for the language. It is simplest way of saying it is a different simplest way of saying it is a different simplest way of saying it is a different alphabet for the same language.

alphabet for the same language. alphabet for the same language. It's not literally just a different It's not literally just a different It's not literally just a different alphabet because there are contractions alphabet because there are contractions alphabet because there are contractions in English Braille, but in many in English Braille, but in many in English Braille, but in many countries there are no contractions. So countries there are no contractions. So countries there are no contractions. So contractions things like the word the is contractions things like the word the is contractions things like the word the is a single character. So in many languages a single character. So in many languages a single character. So in many languages it really is just a different take on it really is just a different take on it really is just a different take on the alphabet. So that you don't the alphabet. So that you don't the alphabet. So that you don't necessarily get that that click if you necessarily get that that click if you necessarily get that that click if you like, but when it comes to learning the like, but when it comes to learning the like, but when it comes to learning the contractions or that sense of being able contractions or that sense of being able contractions or that sense of being able to feel to feel to feel the character under your finger. the character under your finger. the character under your finger. >> fluency of information flowing into your >> fluency of information flowing into your >> fluency of information flowing into your fingers rather than into your eyes. fingers rather than into your eyes. fingers rather than into your eyes. >> Right. I have I have passed the first >> Right. I have I have passed the first >> Right. I have I have passed the first one sometimes and have since regressed, one sometimes and have since regressed, one sometimes and have since regressed, but the when you're picking up the when but the when you're picking up the when but the when you're picking up the when you're picking up the the contractions you're picking up the the contractions you're picking up the the contractions that is essentially the same as picking that is essentially the same as picking that is essentially the same as picking up shorthand in in up shorthand in in up shorthand in in kind of sense if you if you can kind of sense if you if you can kind of sense if you if you can imagine that or or in a sense like imagine that or or in a sense like imagine that or or in a sense like learning a programming language which is learning a programming language which is learning a programming language which is not the same as learning French for not the same as learning French for not the same as learning French for example, but it it it's it's not a example, but it it it's it's not a example, but it it it's it's not a million miles away. I've never million miles away. I've never million miles away. I've never experienced of course becoming fluent in experienced of course becoming fluent in experienced of course becoming fluent in touch reading. touch reading. touch reading. It it does get harder the older you are It it does get harder the older you are It it does get harder the older you are and at some point after your mid-20s and at some point after your mid-20s and at some point after your mid-20s it takes more work and if you're sighted it takes more work and if you're sighted it takes more work and if you're sighted you have to be very dedicated to to you have to be very dedicated to to you have to be very dedicated to to develop the point where you're fluent, develop the point where you're fluent, develop the point where you're fluent, but but you can it can be observed that but but you can it can be observed that but but you can it can be observed that there is a point at which someone reads there is a point at which someone reads there is a point at which someone reads at the same speed in Braille at the same speed in Braille at the same speed in Braille as they are reading as they are reading as they are reading as a sighted person reads visually and as a sighted person reads visually and as a sighted person reads visually and if you observe that it's clear they are if you observe that it's clear they are if you observe that it's clear they are not feeling they are not not feeling they are not not feeling they are not consciously checking the dots.

consciously checking the dots. consciously checking the dots. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> The dots are just happening and they >> The dots are just happening and they >> The dots are just happening and they might scoot their hand back and forth might scoot their hand back and forth might scoot their hand back and forth and they might use a different So that and they might use a different So that and they might use a different So that is clearly a the click has happened if is clearly a the click has happened if is clearly a the click has happened if you like and the click I would you like and the click I would you like and the click I would it's not really my place to say, but I it's not really my place to say, but I it's not really my place to say, but I think you would say therefore say that think you would say therefore say that think you would say therefore say that it is in the it is in the sensation it is in the it is in the sensation it is in the it is in the sensation rather than in the code itself which is rather than in the code itself which is rather than in the code itself which is strictly speaking a a language. strictly speaking a a language. strictly speaking a a language. >> Yeah, I think when the when the canut >> Yeah, I think when the when the canut >> Yeah, I think when the when the canut scientific and Braille disappears and scientific and Braille disappears and scientific and Braille disappears and it's simply the information flows that's it's simply the information flows that's it's simply the information flows that's when the when the when the the blind person it really is unlocked the blind person it really is unlocked the blind person it really is unlocked and unleashed and able to do everything and unleashed and able to do everything and unleashed and able to do everything that they want to do. that they want to do. that they want to do. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. So, folks can learn more at >> Yeah. So, folks can learn more at >> Yeah. So, folks can learn more at Bristol Braille.org. We'll include links Bristol Braille.org. We'll include links Bristol Braille.org. We'll include links in the show notes. The website is the in the show notes. The website is the in the show notes. The website is the primary place for folks to interact. If primary place for folks to interact. If primary place for folks to interact. If someone wants to partner with you, if someone wants to partner with you, if someone wants to partner with you, if someone want to spend time with you, if someone want to spend time with you, if someone want to spend time with you, if they want to work with you on a maker they want to work with you on a maker they want to work with you on a maker space or something like that, they can space or something like that, they can space or something like that, they can just reach out from the website. just reach out from the website. just reach out from the website. >> Yeah, and we've gotten we've we've got a >> Yeah, and we've gotten we've we've got a >> Yeah, and we've gotten we've we've got a US UK and what's up getting in contact US UK and what's up getting in contact US UK and what's up getting in contact with us, just email us. But, you can with us, just email us. But, you can with us, just email us. But, you can also if you check check our diary also if you check check our diary also if you check check our diary because if we happen if we happen to be because if we happen if we happen to be because if we happen if we happen to be in a city near you, you might as well in a city near you, you might as well in a city near you, you might as well pop over.

pop over. pop over. >> Yeah, absolutely. And then they can go >> Yeah, absolutely. And then they can go >> Yeah, absolutely. And then they can go and see the Canute Scientific and see the Canute Scientific and see the Canute Scientific pre-launch. There's an initial limited pre-launch. There's an initial limited pre-launch. There's an initial limited batch run happening and then you can batch run happening and then you can batch run happening and then you can check out the shop and contact them. check out the shop and contact them. check out the shop and contact them. Thank you so much, Ed Rogers, for Thank you so much, Ed Rogers, for Thank you so much, Ed Rogers, for chatting with me today. chatting with me today. chatting with me today. >> Thank you. It's been a pleasure. >> Thank you. It's been a pleasure. >> Thank you. It's been a pleasure. >> This has been another episode of >> This has been another episode of >> This has been another episode of Hanselminutes and we'll see you again Hanselminutes and we'll see you again Hanselminutes and we'll see you again next week.