Decoding Tech Influencers with Emily Freeman

hey friends and digital marketers this hey friends and digital marketers this one's for you I've got 30 seconds to one's for you I've got 30 seconds to one's for you I've got 30 seconds to tell you about Wix Studio the web tell you about Wix Studio the web tell you about Wix Studio the web platform for agencies and Enterprises so platform for agencies and Enterprises so platform for agencies and Enterprises so here are a few things you can do in 30 here are a few things you can do in 30 here are a few things you can do in 30 seconds or less when you manage projects seconds or less when you manage projects seconds or less when you manage projects on Wix Studio you can work in sync with on Wix Studio you can work in sync with on Wix Studio you can work in sync with your team on one canvas you can reuse your team on one canvas you can reuse your team on one canvas you can reuse templates widgets and sections across templates widgets and sections across templates widgets and sections across sites you can create a client kit for sites you can create a client kit for sites you can create a client kit for seamless handovers and leverage seamless handovers and leverage seamless handovers and leverage best-in-class SEO defaults across all best-in-class SEO defaults across all best-in-class SEO defaults across all your Wix sites time's up but the list your Wix sites time's up but the list your Wix sites time's up but the list keeps going step into Wick's Studio to keeps going step into Wick's Studio to keeps going step into Wick's Studio to see see see [Music] [Music] [Music] more hey friends I'm Scott Hanselman and more hey friends I'm Scott Hanselman and more hey friends I'm Scott Hanselman and it's another episode of Hansel minutes it's another episode of Hansel minutes it's another episode of Hansel minutes today I'm chatting with Emily Freeman today I'm chatting with Emily Freeman today I'm chatting with Emily Freeman she's the bestselling author of two she's the bestselling author of two she's the bestselling author of two books devops for dummies and 97 things books devops for dummies and 97 things books devops for dummies and 97 things every cloud engineer should know she's a every cloud engineer should know she's a every cloud engineer should know she's a prolific Tech speaker going all over the prolific Tech speaker going all over the prolific Tech speaker going all over the globe talking about technology she's globe talking about technology she's globe talking about technology she's worked for companies like AWS and worked for companies like AWS and worked for companies like AWS and Microsoft and her latest foray is Microsoft and her latest foray is Microsoft and her latest foray is Freeman and forest.com and she's Freeman and forest.com and she's Freeman and forest.com and she's actually doing influencer marketing actually doing influencer marketing actually doing influencer marketing focusing on Enterprise Tech how's it focusing on Enterprise Tech how's it focusing on Enterprise Tech how's it going Emily it's going well thank you so going Emily it's going well thank you so going Emily it's going well thank you so much for having me yeah thanks for much for having me yeah thanks for much for having me yeah thanks for hanging out so influencer marketing when hanging out so influencer marketing when hanging out so influencer marketing when I think about influencers you know it's I think about influencers you know it's I think about influencers you know it's usually a young person on Instagram usually a young person on Instagram usually a young person on Instagram that's trying to get me to buy something that's trying to get me to buy something that's trying to get me to buy something or a Tik Tok shop but you're not focused or a Tik Tok shop but you're not focused or a Tik Tok shop but you're not focused on Tech you're focused on Enterprise

on Tech you're focused on Enterprise on Tech you're focused on Enterprise Tech so this is influencer marketing for Tech so this is influencer marketing for Tech so this is influencer marketing for like clouds absolutely yes and it it like clouds absolutely yes and it it like clouds absolutely yes and it it runs to gamut I mean we work with cage runs to gamut I mean we work with cage runs to gamut I mean we work with cage startups and certainly plenty of AI startups and certainly plenty of AI startups and certainly plenty of AI companies right now all the way to to companies right now all the way to to companies right now all the way to to your massive Cloud your massive Cloud your massive Cloud companies when I hear influencer though companies when I hear influencer though companies when I hear influencer though like how is that different than what we like how is that different than what we like how is that different than what we used to call Word of Mouth like in the used to call Word of Mouth like in the used to call Word of Mouth like in the 90s it's not so different except that 90s it's not so different except that 90s it's not so different except that the world has completely changed right the world has completely changed right the world has completely changed right and so I mean we in a world where and so I mean we in a world where and so I mean we in a world where growing up you and I would look to movie growing up you and I would look to movie growing up you and I would look to movie stars or TV shows for our celebrity and stars or TV shows for our celebrity and stars or TV shows for our celebrity and now my daughters she believes the most now my daughters she believes the most now my daughters she believes the most famous person in the world are her famous person in the world are her famous person in the world are her favorite YouTube influencers and that's favorite YouTube influencers and that's favorite YouTube influencers and that's you know Mr Beast all the way to her you know Mr Beast all the way to her you know Mr Beast all the way to her favorite uh what did she get into the um favorite uh what did she get into the um favorite uh what did she get into the um gosh what is it called when you do the gosh what is it called when you do the gosh what is it called when you do the rotate like the cube Rubik's CU she's rotate like the cube Rubik's CU she's rotate like the cube Rubik's CU she's into Rubik's Cubes so her Rubik's Cube into Rubik's Cubes so her Rubik's Cube into Rubik's Cubes so her Rubik's Cube influencer wow and now we're certainly influencer wow and now we're certainly influencer wow and now we're certainly seeing the uh possible uh deconstruction seeing the uh possible uh deconstruction seeing the uh possible uh deconstruction of Mr Beast he's uh possibly falling of Mr Beast he's uh possibly falling of Mr Beast he's uh possibly falling apart right now he's been accused of apart right now he's been accused of apart right now he's been accused of unsafe filming and there's a whole unsafe filming and there's a whole unsafe filming and there's a whole sudden crisis in his nice guy Empire sudden crisis in his nice guy Empire sudden crisis in his nice guy Empire it's on the front page of everything it's on the front page of everything it's on the front page of everything right now you heard I missed this today right now you heard I missed this today right now you heard I missed this today oh this is huge he's actually on the oh this is huge he's actually on the oh this is huge he's actually on the he's in the New York he's in the New York he's in the New York Times uh inappropriate comments uh Times uh inappropriate comments uh Times uh inappropriate comments uh uncomfortable you know bad bad situation uncomfortable you know bad bad situation uncomfortable you know bad bad situation on his on his sets there's some there's on his on his sets there's some there's on his on his sets there's some there's some weird stuff going on oh no yeah some weird stuff going on oh no yeah some weird stuff going on oh no yeah yeah yeah well the point being though yeah yeah well the point being though yeah yeah well the point being though that like you just never know when this

that like you just never know when this that like you just never know when this influencer is going to become uh you influencer is going to become uh you influencer is going to become uh you know what they say what do they say you know what they say what do they say you know what they say what do they say you live long enough until you die a hero or live long enough until you die a hero or live long enough until you die a hero or live to be a v a vill absolutely um no live to be a v a vill absolutely um no live to be a v a vill absolutely um no and I also think there's something to and I also think there's something to and I also think there's something to you know the faster you rise the faster you know the faster you rise the faster you know the faster you rise the faster you fall I've seen a lot of people grow you fall I've seen a lot of people grow you fall I've seen a lot of people grow incredibly quickly and then just flame incredibly quickly and then just flame incredibly quickly and then just flame out and I I wonder if that might be in out and I I wonder if that might be in out and I I wonder if that might be in that well and the thing that's so that well and the thing that's so that well and the thing that's so interesting also though is that like interesting also though is that like interesting also though is that like these are just regular people not that these are just regular people not that these are just regular people not that Tom Cruz isn't a regular person but he Tom Cruz isn't a regular person but he Tom Cruz isn't a regular person but he like worked really hard for like 40 like worked really hard for like 40 like worked really hard for like 40 years to do the regular become a movie years to do the regular become a movie years to do the regular become a movie star and I never really felt like he was star and I never really felt like he was star and I never really felt like he was trying to sell me anything but like you trying to sell me anything but like you trying to sell me anything but like you know 15 years ago Mr Beast was just like know 15 years ago Mr Beast was just like know 15 years ago Mr Beast was just like a kid just hanging out doing stuff and a kid just hanging out doing stuff and a kid just hanging out doing stuff and most influencers are and it's amazing most influencers are and it's amazing most influencers are and it's amazing how fast they they they can their 15 how fast they they they can their 15 how fast they they they can their 15 minutes Happ but I think that's part of minutes Happ but I think that's part of minutes Happ but I think that's part of the the charm of influencers because the the charm of influencers because the the charm of influencers because it's they are regular people and so it it's they are regular people and so it it's they are regular people and so it feels to some degree I mean you know feels to some degree I mean you know feels to some degree I mean you know this parasocial relationship where this parasocial relationship where this parasocial relationship where obviously we know of them they don't obviously we know of them they don't obviously we know of them they don't know of us but there's this closeness or know of us but there's this closeness or know of us but there's this closeness or this this falsehood of closeness in that this this falsehood of closeness in that this this falsehood of closeness in that where we're like oh this is just my where we're like oh this is just my where we're like oh this is just my friend who's reviewing this thing okay I friend who's reviewing this thing okay I friend who's reviewing this thing okay I believe them because I've been following believe them because I've been following believe them because I've been following them for so long yeah that's actually a them for so long yeah that's actually a them for so long yeah that's actually a really interesting word I introduced the really interesting word I introduced the really interesting word I introduced the term parasocial to like friends probably term parasocial to like friends probably term parasocial to like friends probably once or twice a month that's something once or twice a month that's something once or twice a month that's something that's worth digging into right it's a that's worth digging into right it's a that's worth digging into right it's a very one-sided connection or an imagined very one-sided connection or an imagined very one-sided connection or an imagined connection where you feel like someone's connection where you feel like someone's connection where you feel like someone's your buddy has that ever happened to you your buddy has that ever happened to you your buddy has that ever happened to you I mean that happens to me all the time I mean that happens to me all the time I mean that happens to me all the time like I you know well like here's a

like I you know well like here's a like I you know well like here's a totally random uh you name drop like I totally random uh you name drop like I totally random uh you name drop like I was at a conference maybe 10 years ago was at a conference maybe 10 years ago was at a conference maybe 10 years ago and I had dinner with Issa Ray and a and I had dinner with Issa Ray and a and I had dinner with Issa Ray and a friend when Issa was doing award black friend when Issa was doing award black friend when Issa was doing award black girl so she was a famous YouTuber but girl so she was a famous YouTuber but girl so she was a famous YouTuber but she was Isa Ray movie star so you know she was Isa Ray movie star so you know she was Isa Ray movie star so you know and we exchang phone numbers and I've and we exchang phone numbers and I've and we exchang phone numbers and I've got you know an old 10-year-old number got you know an old 10-year-old number got you know an old 10-year-old number and she's like a person who I talk to and she's like a person who I talk to and she's like a person who I talk to for the week that we were at the for the week that we were at the for the week that we were at the conference we hung out we had dinner and conference we hung out we had dinner and conference we hung out we had dinner and have not spoken to her since but there's have not spoken to her since but there's have not spoken to her since but there's that sense of like yeah that's my girl that sense of like yeah that's my girl that sense of like yeah that's my girl so when she succeeds you feel like so when she succeeds you feel like so when she succeeds you feel like you're close or like you know Quinta you're close or like you know Quinta you're close or like you know Quinta Brunson would be another great example Brunson would be another great example Brunson would be another great example where that's our internet where that's our internet where that's our internet nerd on BuzzFeed and everyone's like oh nerd on BuzzFeed and everyone's like oh nerd on BuzzFeed and everyone's like oh yeah you know the Quinta time on yeah you know the Quinta time on yeah you know the Quinta time on BuzzFeed was the best time and now she's BuzzFeed was the best time and now she's BuzzFeed was the best time and now she's got Elementary and it's success you know got Elementary and it's success you know got Elementary and it's success you know or AO ataberry like these are all just or AO ataberry like these are all just or AO ataberry like these are all just people that are like our nerds people that are like our nerds people that are like our nerds well or um uh Childish Gambino you know well or um uh Childish Gambino you know well or um uh Childish Gambino you know it's just like oh yeah I remember him it's just like oh yeah I remember him it's just like oh yeah I remember him when he was just Troy on community that when he was just Troy on community that when he was just Troy on community that those kinds of people we all feel like those kinds of people we all feel like those kinds of people we all feel like we could get them on the phone but we we could get them on the phone but we we could get them on the phone but we could not we could not um but there is could not we could not um but there is could not we could not um but there is something to that like I I wonder something to that like I I wonder something to that like I I wonder sometimes if we all sort of need Heroes sometimes if we all sort of need Heroes sometimes if we all sort of need Heroes to cheer for I think you see it right to cheer for I think you see it right to cheer for I think you see it right now with the Olympics like Alamar is one now with the Olympics like Alamar is one now with the Olympics like Alamar is one of my favorite I guess you could call of my favorite I guess you could call of my favorite I guess you could call her an influencer um I love Alona Mar her an influencer um I love Alona Mar her an influencer um I love Alona Mar and she just run won bronze with her and she just run won bronze with her and she just run won bronze with her team at team at team at rugby player yeah and yeah well and she rugby player yeah and yeah well and she rugby player yeah and yeah well and she spent four years being awesome on Tik

spent four years being awesome on Tik spent four years being awesome on Tik Tok from her last time that we all Tok from her last time that we all Tok from her last time that we all thought she was amazing absolutely at thought she was amazing absolutely at thought she was amazing absolutely at the Olympics abely yeah so then are we the Olympics abely yeah so then are we the Olympics abely yeah so then are we you know but like it's heal it's healthy you know but like it's heal it's healthy you know but like it's heal it's healthy to go oh I admire that person I really to go oh I admire that person I really to go oh I admire that person I really enjoyed uh just as a generational Gap enjoyed uh just as a generational Gap enjoyed uh just as a generational Gap watching Simone biles they won Gold they watching Simone biles they won Gold they watching Simone biles they won Gold they like they won the gold and the first like they won the gold and the first like they won the gold and the first thing they did was like ah I want to do thing they did was like ah I want to do thing they did was like ah I want to do this Tik Tok I want to do this Tik Tok this Tik Tok I want to do this Tik Tok this Tik Tok I want to do this Tik Tok so they like had an over over heard so they like had an over over heard so they like had an over over heard thing with the camera people were thing with the camera people were thing with the camera people were watching them conspire about the Tik watching them conspire about the Tik watching them conspire about the Tik toks that they were going to do wild toks that they were going to do wild toks that they were going to do wild just F that was the first thing at top just F that was the first thing at top just F that was the first thing at top of Mind was like oh we could do this we of Mind was like oh we could do this we of Mind was like oh we could do this we could do that and now those Tik toks are could do that and now those Tik toks are could do that and now those Tik toks are starting to come out that is really cool starting to come out that is really cool starting to come out that is really cool and it's like really that's your that's and it's like really that's your that's and it's like really that's your that's your takeaway like but in the past what your takeaway like but in the past what your takeaway like but in the past what what did it used to be it used to be what did it used to be it used to be what did it used to be it used to be look straight into the camera and say look straight into the camera and say look straight into the camera and say I'm going to Disneyland and then collect I'm going to Disneyland and then collect I'm going to Disneyland and then collect your check that was what they did in the your check that was what they did in the your check that was what they did in the 90s if you were an influencer right they 90s if you were an influencer right they 90s if you were an influencer right they would call you and say that's what you would call you and say that's what you would call you and say that's what you have to say if you win medal that's wild have to say if you win medal that's wild have to say if you win medal that's wild yeah I don't I mean I wonder sometimes yeah I don't I mean I wonder sometimes yeah I don't I mean I wonder sometimes how this impacts our society this sort how this impacts our society this sort how this impacts our society this sort of of of published life I'm extremely glad that published life I'm extremely glad that published life I'm extremely glad that there's no photographic evidence of my there's no photographic evidence of my there's no photographic evidence of my teenage years it's a rumor not not a teenage years it's a rumor not not a teenage years it's a rumor not not a fact even on a disposable little cheap fact even on a disposable little cheap fact even on a disposable little cheap well there's like I mean random photos well there's like I mean random photos well there's like I mean random photos in boxes and in my mother's closet but in boxes and in my mother's closet but in boxes and in my mother's closet but you can't go to some social and and find you can't go to some social and and find you can't go to some social and and find me at 14 and and I I wonder how that me at 14 and and I I wonder how that me at 14 and and I I wonder how that that's impacting things and and that's impacting things and and that's impacting things and and connectiveness but regardless of that connectiveness but regardless of that connectiveness but regardless of that this is the world we live in and you

this is the world we live in and you this is the world we live in and you know I think we're most of us are know I think we're most of us are know I think we're most of us are chronically online and we have our chronically online and we have our chronically online and we have our favorite people and influencer marketing favorite people and influencer marketing favorite people and influencer marketing is part of that and we're forest and I is part of that and we're forest and I is part of that and we're forest and I are really driving that um toward Tech are really driving that um toward Tech are really driving that um toward Tech because it hasn't it's huge in fashion because it hasn't it's huge in fashion because it hasn't it's huge in fashion and Beauty but it hasn't really landed and Beauty but it hasn't really landed and Beauty but it hasn't really landed in Tech in the same way even though with in Tech in the same way even though with in Tech in the same way even though with developing relations there is this sort developing relations there is this sort developing relations there is this sort of Vin diagram where you're starting to of Vin diagram where you're starting to of Vin diagram where you're starting to kind of push into that my uh uh an kind of push into that my uh uh an kind of push into that my uh uh an actual friend not a person I have a actual friend not a person I have a actual friend not a person I have a parasocial relationship but a friend of parasocial relationship but a friend of parasocial relationship but a friend of mine Franchesca Ramsey is a an actress mine Franchesca Ramsey is a an actress mine Franchesca Ramsey is a an actress and a writer and an influencer and she and a writer and an influencer and she and a writer and an influencer and she has this she always does these songs has this she always does these songs has this she always does these songs that she so something will happen and that she so something will happen and that she so something will happen and she'll sing a song like I didn't know she'll sing a song like I didn't know she'll sing a song like I didn't know that the leopards would come and eat my that the leopards would come and eat my that the leopards would come and eat my face or one of her great songs is um I face or one of her great songs is um I face or one of her great songs is um I would like to know less about you and would like to know less about you and would like to know less about you and it's usually like where you know Jada it's usually like where you know Jada it's usually like where you know Jada pinket or somebody does says something pinket or somebody does says something pinket or somebody does says something that we just not need and then she will that we just not need and then she will that we just not need and then she will go and sing her song with her ukulele I go and sing her song with her ukulele I go and sing her song with her ukulele I would like to know I would like to know would like to know I would like to know would like to know I would like to know less about you there there is a balance less about you there there is a balance less about you there there is a balance in that parasocial relationship like I in that parasocial relationship like I in that parasocial relationship like I don't I talk about my kids constantly don't I talk about my kids constantly don't I talk about my kids constantly but I don't show pictures of them and I but I don't show pictures of them and I but I don't show pictures of them and I don't share their names that seems don't share their names that seems don't share their names that seems conscious as well so like what is the conscious as well so like what is the conscious as well so like what is the right amount of like yeah I feel like I right amount of like yeah I feel like I right amount of like yeah I feel like I know Emily like well but I really don't know Emily like well but I really don't know Emily like well but I really don't know Emily at all well and it's know Emily at all well and it's know Emily at all well and it's interesting too because you know I am interesting too because you know I am interesting too because you know I am pretty public and I'm pretty open about pretty public and I'm pretty open about pretty public and I'm pretty open about certain things and so people then will certain things and so people then will certain things and so people then will close that Gap and assume that I'm close that Gap and assume that I'm close that Gap and assume that I'm sharing 100% of my life but in fact I am sharing 100% of my life but in fact I am sharing 100% of my life but in fact I am really really private about 10 to 20% of really really private about 10 to 20% of really really private about 10 to 20% of my life it's just that um I do believe my life it's just that um I do believe my life it's just that um I do believe in in being transparent and being

in in being transparent and being in in being transparent and being radically human I am far from perfect radically human I am far from perfect radically human I am far from perfect and I think you know when I say and I think you know when I say and I think you know when I say something I want to say it with my whole something I want to say it with my whole something I want to say it with my whole chest and so you know I I fumble chest and so you know I I fumble chest and so you know I I fumble sometimes and and get up again and I sometimes and and get up again and I sometimes and and get up again and I think the more we can kind of share think the more we can kind of share think the more we can kind of share those moments of vulnerability and not those moments of vulnerability and not those moments of vulnerability and not being this highlight re the more being this highlight re the more being this highlight re the more powerful our friendships and powerful our friendships and powerful our friendships and relationships become yeah watching relationships become yeah watching relationships become yeah watching people like that I admire like uh uh people like that I admire like uh uh people like that I admire like uh uh denzo Washington who's very been very denzo Washington who's very been very denzo Washington who's very been very public for his whole life but we don't public for his whole life but we don't public for his whole life but we don't know anything about him other than he know anything about him other than he know anything about him other than he loves his wife uh or uh Hugh Jackman and loves his wife uh or uh Hugh Jackman and loves his wife uh or uh Hugh Jackman and Ryan Reynolds as they have cultivated Ryan Reynolds as they have cultivated Ryan Reynolds as they have cultivated this joke for 20 years that they are this joke for 20 years that they are this joke for 20 years that they are they they're they deep enemies but but they they're they deep enemies but but they they're they deep enemies but but now seeing this kind of very positive now seeing this kind of very positive now seeing this kind of very positive masculinity as they sit and have masculinity as they sit and have masculinity as they sit and have interviews and talk about how much they interviews and talk about how much they interviews and talk about how much they love each other is really cool but it love each other is really cool but it love each other is really cool but it all makes us feel like Ryan Reynolds is all makes us feel like Ryan Reynolds is all makes us feel like Ryan Reynolds is our buddy that we could like call and our buddy that we could like call and our buddy that we could like call and hang out with you have to find those hang out with you have to find those hang out with you have to find those boundaries and those lines right I mean boundaries and those lines right I mean boundaries and those lines right I mean obviously the there's a gap between that obviously the there's a gap between that obviously the there's a gap between that type of thing where it's like actually type of thing where it's like actually type of thing where it's like actually believing you could get these people on believing you could get these people on believing you could get these people on the phone and and then I think the the phone and and then I think the the phone and and then I think the healthy version of that is really saying healthy version of that is really saying healthy version of that is really saying I believe in this person I've watched I believe in this person I've watched I believe in this person I've watched this person I love their work I feel this person I love their work I feel this person I love their work I feel attuned to them in some way some kind of attuned to them in some way some kind of attuned to them in some way some kind of connection there and I want to see them connection there and I want to see them connection there and I want to see them win so then capitalism comes in and this win so then capitalism comes in and this win so then capitalism comes in and this is where influence like I was talking is where influence like I was talking is where influence like I was talking about U I had a viral video on Tik Tok a about U I had a viral video on Tik Tok a about U I had a viral video on Tik Tok a couple weeks ago on um 3D printers and couple weeks ago on um 3D printers and couple weeks ago on um 3D printers and like 90% of the comments were very like 90% of the comments were very like 90% of the comments were very positive and a bunch of them were like

positive and a bunch of them were like positive and a bunch of them were like oh this guy's trying to get us to buy oh this guy's trying to get us to buy oh this guy's trying to get us to buy this printer like I have no relationship this printer like I have no relationship this printer like I have no relationship with this printer company there's no Tik with this printer company there's no Tik with this printer company there's no Tik Tok Shop link I had no affiliate link Tok Shop link I had no affiliate link Tok Shop link I had no affiliate link million 1.3 million views I made zero million 1.3 million views I made zero million 1.3 million views I made zero dollars on selling printers which I dollars on selling printers which I dollars on selling printers which I think is is fine and healthy but then think is is fine and healthy but then think is is fine and healthy but then everyone's like oh you missed missed the everyone's like oh you missed missed the everyone's like oh you missed missed the ball there you should have totally ball there you should have totally ball there you should have totally hooked up with that that company and I hooked up with that that company and I hooked up with that that company and I was like I don't know if it would have was like I don't know if it would have was like I don't know if it would have gone viral if I'd done it that way I gone viral if I'd done it that way I gone viral if I'd done it that way I just was excited about the like legit I just was excited about the like legit I just was excited about the like legit I was just stok well I think we see a lot was just stok well I think we see a lot was just stok well I think we see a lot of that in Tech you know with 3D of that in Tech you know with 3D of that in Tech you know with 3D printers and everything else you have printers and everything else you have printers and everything else you have content creators who are already raving content creators who are already raving content creators who are already raving about the things that they love they about the things that they love they about the things that they love they have newsletters they have YouTube have newsletters they have YouTube have newsletters they have YouTube channels they have you know these short channels they have you know these short channels they have you know these short form content around Tik Tok and form content around Tik Tok and form content around Tik Tok and Instagram um obviously Twitter and and Instagram um obviously Twitter and and Instagram um obviously Twitter and and Linkedin as well and so we're already Linkedin as well and so we're already Linkedin as well and so we're already doing the work and talking about things doing the work and talking about things doing the work and talking about things we love why shouldn't there be a payment we love why shouldn't there be a payment we love why shouldn't there be a payment for all of that work I think just like for all of that work I think just like for all of that work I think just like we got over the fact that you know we we got over the fact that you know we we got over the fact that you know we need to pay open- Source maintainers need to pay open- Source maintainers need to pay open- Source maintainers that's important because they're doing that's important because they're doing that's important because they're doing work and if we truly believe that no one work and if we truly believe that no one work and if we truly believe that no one should have to work for free then why should have to work for free then why should have to work for free then why wouldn't this be different now the the wouldn't this be different now the the wouldn't this be different now the the gotcha is that it has to be authentic gotcha is that it has to be authentic gotcha is that it has to be authentic and Corey Quinn um I think is the one and Corey Quinn um I think is the one and Corey Quinn um I think is the one who originally said this quote which is who originally said this quote which is who originally said this quote which is you can buy my attention you can't by my you can buy my attention you can't by my you can buy my attention you can't by my opinion and I love that and and Forest opinion and I love that and and Forest opinion and I love that and and Forest and I really focus on that as an ethos and I really focus on that as an ethos and I really focus on that as an ethos you know we're we're making sure that you know we're we're making sure that you know we're we're making sure that you know attention is given to specific

you know attention is given to specific you know attention is given to specific products and companies and Brands but products and companies and Brands but products and companies and Brands but outside of that the content creators are outside of that the content creators are outside of that the content creators are free to really share their ideas and free to really share their ideas and free to really share their ideas and some of our companies have gotten some of our companies have gotten some of our companies have gotten feedback and it's been an awesome feedback and it's been an awesome feedback and it's been an awesome experience the I really like that quote experience the I really like that quote experience the I really like that quote that makes a lot of sense and I think that makes a lot of sense and I think that makes a lot of sense and I think that that fits very well into like my that that fits very well into like my that that fits very well into like my worldview without me actually having worldview without me actually having worldview without me actually having done that uh and thought about that I done that uh and thought about that I done that uh and thought about that I think I'm doing it think I'm doing it think I'm doing it intuitively uh like I don't take a lot intuitively uh like I don't take a lot intuitively uh like I don't take a lot of free crap you know I have a job I of free crap you know I have a job I of free crap you know I have a job I like my job uh so I don't like people like my job uh so I don't like people like my job uh so I don't like people don't send me send me stuff but couple don't send me send me stuff but couple don't send me send me stuff but couple weeks ago uh Ben Q sent me a monitor and weeks ago uh Ben Q sent me a monitor and weeks ago uh Ben Q sent me a monitor and I like why would hand someone take a I like why would hand someone take a I like why would hand someone take a monitor because it's a it's it's the monitor because it's a it's it's the monitor because it's a it's it's the first monitor I've ever seen marketed to first monitor I've ever seen marketed to first monitor I've ever seen marketed to programmers and I just like what a like programmers and I just like what a like programmers and I just like what a like they're always marketing towards like they're always marketing towards like they're always marketing towards like Lightroom and Adobe people and like Lightroom and Adobe people and like Lightroom and Adobe people and like photographers and we have the most color photographers and we have the most color photographers and we have the most color correction or Gamers but this one was correction or Gamers but this one was correction or Gamers but this one was for programmers and it was like I went for programmers and it was like I went for programmers and it was like I went to their website and they were talking to their website and they were talking to their website and they were talking about coding themes and dark mode and about coding themes and dark mode and about coding themes and dark mode and like oh this is awesome so I so I you like oh this is awesome so I so I you like oh this is awesome so I so I you know give me a monitor and I did I did a know give me a monitor and I did I did a know give me a monitor and I did I did a review I thought it was really review I thought it was really review I thought it was really interesting that I was I had to really interesting that I was I had to really interesting that I was I had to really catch myself to not for the for the catch myself to not for the for the catch myself to not for the for the negative things I sent about the monitor negative things I sent about the monitor negative things I sent about the monitor I didn't want to like make them feel bad I didn't want to like make them feel bad I didn't want to like make them feel bad and I could so I was feeling myself feel and I could so I was feeling myself feel and I could so I was feeling myself feel bad because like I have to give my bad because like I have to give my bad because like I have to give my honest opinion about the things I didn't honest opinion about the things I didn't honest opinion about the things I didn't like about the monitor was actually a like about the monitor was actually a like about the monitor was actually a great deal but I didn't realize it it great deal but I didn't realize it it great deal but I didn't realize it it was only like a $500 monitor right but was only like a $500 monitor right but was only like a $500 monitor right but I'm still like oh gosh I I hope the very I'm still like oh gosh I I hope the very I'm still like oh gosh I I hope the very nice lady who gave me the mon is not mad nice lady who gave me the mon is not mad nice lady who gave me the mon is not mad at me for being honest I could only at me for being honest I could only at me for being honest I could only imagine what that would feel like if

imagine what that would feel like if imagine what that would feel like if you're like MKBHD and some company has you're like MKBHD and some company has you're like MKBHD and some company has bet their entire lives on your review bet their entire lives on your review bet their entire lives on your review and you don't like it I think removing and you don't like it I think removing and you don't like it I think removing that and really thinking about you know that and really thinking about you know that and really thinking about you know Sarah Jer is always saying Clarity is Sarah Jer is always saying Clarity is Sarah Jer is always saying Clarity is kindness and I I really love that saying kindness and I I really love that saying kindness and I I really love that saying and I think about it a lot and whether and I think about it a lot and whether and I think about it a lot and whether it's positive or negative feedback it's it's positive or negative feedback it's it's positive or negative feedback it's a gift right and so these companies are a gift right and so these companies are a gift right and so these companies are putting themselves out there on the putting themselves out there on the putting themselves out there on the market they're saying we would love for market they're saying we would love for market they're saying we would love for you to review it of course you're going you to review it of course you're going you to review it of course you're going to review it authentically and genuinely to review it authentically and genuinely to review it authentically and genuinely for your for your audience I think for your for your audience I think for your for your audience I think that's really healthy to do yeah so if that's really healthy to do yeah so if that's really healthy to do yeah so if you're doing this new thing that you're you're doing this new thing that you're you're doing this new thing that you're doing this influencer Tech marketing one doing this influencer Tech marketing one doing this influencer Tech marketing one of the things that we struggle with when of the things that we struggle with when of the things that we struggle with when we're just doing regular community we're just doing regular community we're just doing regular community outreach is like how to measure stuff outreach is like how to measure stuff outreach is like how to measure stuff and the simplistic way is always like and the simplistic way is always like and the simplistic way is always like Impressions but like Twitter not only is Impressions but like Twitter not only is Impressions but like Twitter not only is a hell site but it's also completely a hell site but it's also completely a hell site but it's also completely made up Impressions so like if I do a made up Impressions so like if I do a made up Impressions so like if I do a video and it Scrolls by someone's eye video and it Scrolls by someone's eye video and it Scrolls by someone's eye they count that yes but then you might they count that yes but then you might they count that yes but then you might have somebody that has a million have somebody that has a million have somebody that has a million impressions and like 12 people clicked I impressions and like 12 people clicked I impressions and like 12 people clicked I entered into this having obviously a lot entered into this having obviously a lot entered into this having obviously a lot of experience with developer relations of experience with developer relations of experience with developer relations and understanding that this this kind of and understanding that this this kind of and understanding that this this kind of reaching technical audiences was a bit reaching technical audiences was a bit reaching technical audiences was a bit squishy um and every company I worked squishy um and every company I worked squishy um and every company I worked for has asked me to make a list of for has asked me to make a list of for has asked me to make a list of influencers or thought leaders or influencers or thought leaders or influencers or thought leaders or content creat creators that we needed to content creat creators that we needed to content creat creators that we needed to Target and have them do work and and Target and have them do work and and Target and have them do work and and we've always sort of resisted that we've always sort of resisted that we've always sort of resisted that because I I don't like making lists of because I I don't like making lists of because I I don't like making lists of my friends I think there's an ick Factor my friends I think there's an ick Factor my friends I think there's an ick Factor there and so I haven't participated in

there and so I haven't participated in there and so I haven't participated in that but I don't know a single company that but I don't know a single company that but I don't know a single company who's not trying to get their AWS heroes who's not trying to get their AWS heroes who's not trying to get their AWS heroes or the Ambassador programs to write more or the Ambassador programs to write more or the Ambassador programs to write more content create these these mechanisms content create these these mechanisms content create these these mechanisms for evangelism beyond the company um so for evangelism beyond the company um so for evangelism beyond the company um so this has been a demand from the company this has been a demand from the company this has been a demand from the company side for a really really long time but side for a really really long time but side for a really really long time but thinking through how to measure this thinking through how to measure this thinking through how to measure this gets even more interesting because I gets even more interesting because I gets even more interesting because I think you know with developer relations think you know with developer relations think you know with developer relations inhouse creating that kind of content inhouse creating that kind of content inhouse creating that kind of content having those those feedback loops at a having those those feedback loops at a having those those feedback loops at a very deep technical point of view is very deep technical point of view is very deep technical point of view is critical this is not going to replace critical this is not going to replace critical this is not going to replace that but it does accelerate that work that but it does accelerate that work that but it does accelerate that work and expand the reach and so we measure and expand the reach and so we measure and expand the reach and so we measure on sort of three three topics it's pure on sort of three three topics it's pure on sort of three three topics it's pure Impressions which I'll come back to your Impressions which I'll come back to your Impressions which I'll come back to your point because you said something really point because you said something really point because you said something really interesting about Twitter and how to interesting about Twitter and how to interesting about Twitter and how to measure Impressions engagement likes measure Impressions engagement likes measure Impressions engagement likes shares any kind of comment that type of shares any kind of comment that type of shares any kind of comment that type of thing and then conversion so that's thing and then conversion so that's thing and then conversion so that's that's clicking on to the link uh that's clicking on to the link uh that's clicking on to the link uh wherever they want to go and from there wherever they want to go and from there wherever they want to go and from there it's a handoff to the client and and we it's a handoff to the client and and we it's a handoff to the client and and we fully expect them and their marketing fully expect them and their marketing fully expect them and their marketing team and and their content team to team and and their content team to team and and their content team to create a a smooth path for developers so create a a smooth path for developers so create a a smooth path for developers so let me ask you this am I correct I have let me ask you this am I correct I have let me ask you this am I correct I have told my team that I care more about told my team that I care more about told my team that I care more about comments than I care about views and I comments than I care about views and I comments than I care about views and I would rather have a 10,000 view video would rather have a 10,000 view video would rather have a 10,000 view video with a th000 exited with the asteris with a th000 exited with the asteris with a th000 exited with the asteris that it depends on what your actual goal that it depends on what your actual goal that it depends on what your actual goal is right and so for me engagement is is right and so for me engagement is is right and so for me engagement is really really important to me and it is really really important to me and it is really really important to me and it is my natural bias you see it even on my my natural bias you see it even on my my natural bias you see it even on my accounts I go through and I I hurt every

accounts I go through and I I hurt every accounts I go through and I I hurt every comment I try and respond to every comment I try and respond to every comment I try and respond to every comment that is really important to me comment that is really important to me comment that is really important to me because for me it's it's building a because for me it's it's building a because for me it's it's building a community it's not just you know community it's not just you know community it's not just you know speaking out into the world and so there speaking out into the world and so there speaking out into the world and so there is an important aspect of that because is an important aspect of that because is an important aspect of that because you're not just that scrolling by this you're not just that scrolling by this you're not just that scrolling by this empty impression that doesn't lead to empty impression that doesn't lead to empty impression that doesn't lead to anything people are building trust with anything people are building trust with anything people are building trust with you and I think trust is foundational to you and I think trust is foundational to you and I think trust is foundational to those buying decisions right so speaking those buying decisions right so speaking those buying decisions right so speaking of capitalism yes we're all in a sales of capitalism yes we're all in a sales of capitalism yes we're all in a sales funnel for everything around us where funnel for everything around us where funnel for everything around us where you are in that sales funnel really you are in that sales funnel really you are in that sales funnel really depends on okay do I do I like this depends on okay do I do I like this depends on okay do I do I like this group do I trust them do I know them group do I trust them do I know them group do I trust them do I know them that's sort of the step one so yeah it that's sort of the step one so yeah it that's sort of the step one so yeah it just depends on on your campaign on the just depends on on your campaign on the just depends on on your campaign on the flip side some people really need flip side some people really need flip side some people really need conversions if you're a brand new conversions if you're a brand new conversions if you're a brand new startup and you have limited Runway and startup and you have limited Runway and startup and you have limited Runway and you need to prove something and have you need to prove something and have you need to prove something and have signups then we focus on the conversion signups then we focus on the conversion signups then we focus on the conversion side of that it's surprising the number side of that it's surprising the number side of that it's surprising the number the the ratio of Impressions to calls to the the ratio of Impressions to calls to the the ratio of Impressions to calls to action right like I could have thousands action right like I could have thousands action right like I could have thousands and thousands of people listen to this and thousands of people listen to this and thousands of people listen to this podcast and then at the end uh in you podcast and then at the end uh in you podcast and then at the end uh in you know in 12 or 13 minutes I'm going to know in 12 or 13 minutes I'm going to know in 12 or 13 minutes I'm going to try a new thing where I'm going to ask try a new thing where I'm going to ask try a new thing where I'm going to ask them to please review the show and I them to please review the show and I them to please review the show and I don't even know how many people are don't even know how many people are don't even know how many people are going to make it to the end you know going to make it to the end you know going to make it to the end you know what I mean so it's almost like the what I mean so it's almost like the what I mean so it's almost like the people who stay at the end past the end people who stay at the end past the end people who stay at the end past the end credits of Wolverine like if you made it credits of Wolverine like if you made it credits of Wolverine like if you made it if you're this cool if you're the three if you're this cool if you're the three if you're this cool if you're the three people left in the theater would you people left in the theater would you people left in the theater would you please review my thing on please review my thing on please review my thing on iTunes it's true it's true well and part iTunes it's true it's true well and part iTunes it's true it's true well and part of this has to do with we what we call of this has to do with we what we call of this has to do with we what we call empty calorie Impressions right and so empty calorie Impressions right and so empty calorie Impressions right and so um we don't lead with Twitter we don't

um we don't lead with Twitter we don't um we don't lead with Twitter we don't generally focus on that as a platform generally focus on that as a platform generally focus on that as a platform because the impression ratio is just because the impression ratio is just because the impression ratio is just outlandish it's not helpful to anyone we outlandish it's not helpful to anyone we outlandish it's not helpful to anyone we really focus on groups that have smaller really focus on groups that have smaller really focus on groups that have smaller reach like newsletters are a great reach like newsletters are a great reach like newsletters are a great example of this and I'll pick on Cassidy example of this and I'll pick on Cassidy example of this and I'll pick on Cassidy Williams has his great newsletter her Williams has his great newsletter her Williams has his great newsletter her reach is much smaller than a lot of reach is much smaller than a lot of reach is much smaller than a lot of different platforms and assets out there different platforms and assets out there different platforms and assets out there but her engagement is super super high but her engagement is super super high but her engagement is super super high because her she has incredible trust because her she has incredible trust because her she has incredible trust with the community that she's built and with the community that she's built and with the community that she's built and so you're going to have a better so you're going to have a better so you're going to have a better experience and it it's not going to be experience and it it's not going to be experience and it it's not going to be just this wasted reach that people are just this wasted reach that people are just this wasted reach that people are paying for through traditional things paying for through traditional things paying for through traditional things like display ads is that what they call like display ads is that what they call like display ads is that what they call pre-qualified leads in the sense of like pre-qualified leads in the sense of like pre-qualified leads in the sense of like not only did I sign up for your not only did I sign up for your not only did I sign up for your newsletter but I double confirmed that I newsletter but I double confirmed that I newsletter but I double confirmed that I wanted it because you emailed me and I wanted it because you emailed me and I wanted it because you emailed me and I had to click confirm like I really want had to click confirm like I really want had to click confirm like I really want your newsletter this isn't spam this is your newsletter this isn't spam this is your newsletter this isn't spam this is tell me all about Cassidy I am tell me all about Cassidy I am tell me all about Cassidy I am pre-qualified and rather than a million pre-qualified and rather than a million pre-qualified and rather than a million people scrolling by on Twitter this is I people scrolling by on Twitter this is I people scrolling by on Twitter this is I don't know some number of 20,000 people don't know some number of 20,000 people don't know some number of 20,000 people who are just like yes more of this who are just like yes more of this who are just like yes more of this please yeah I hesitate to put in please yeah I hesitate to put in please yeah I hesitate to put in pre-qualified leads because that would pre-qualified leads because that would pre-qualified leads because that would be something like okay I am now be something like okay I am now be something like okay I am now volunteering to be sold to that's how I volunteering to be sold to that's how I volunteering to be sold to that's how I would think about that it's more in the would think about that it's more in the would think about that it's more in the sales side Less on the marketing side I sales side Less on the marketing side I sales side Less on the marketing side I would put this in marketing but I think would put this in marketing but I think would put this in marketing but I think it has to do with you know Cassidy to it has to do with you know Cassidy to it has to do with you know Cassidy to some degree people again it's this some degree people again it's this some degree people again it's this relationship right we want to see relationship right we want to see relationship right we want to see Cassidy win we want to see her do well Cassidy win we want to see her do well Cassidy win we want to see her do well so you know if we're going to be so you know if we're going to be so you know if we're going to be engaging with her content we're also

engaging with her content we're also engaging with her content we're also going to be interested in her opinion going to be interested in her opinion going to be interested in her opinion about all these other brands and about all these other brands and about all these other brands and products it's so funny how my job is to products it's so funny how my job is to products it's so funny how my job is to talk about open source in the cloud but talk about open source in the cloud but talk about open source in the cloud but the things that people really like are the things that people really like are the things that people really like are very like oh look at this new anchor very like oh look at this new anchor very like oh look at this new anchor battery you know you know what I mean or battery you know you know what I mean or battery you know you know what I mean or like oh buy this backpack you know what like oh buy this backpack you know what like oh buy this backpack you know what I mean and I never like tell people go I mean and I never like tell people go I mean and I never like tell people go buy a backpack or whatever but it's like buy a backpack or whatever but it's like buy a backpack or whatever but it's like I will go and put all this work into I will go and put all this work into I will go and put all this work into some cloud or open source content and some cloud or open source content and some cloud or open source content and like no one cares but then I'll be like like no one cares but then I'll be like like no one cares but then I'll be like yeah this is this great new backpack I yeah this is this great new backpack I yeah this is this great new backpack I got everyone like give me the Amazon got everyone like give me the Amazon got everyone like give me the Amazon link and I'm like okay here's the bag I link and I'm like okay here's the bag I link and I'm like okay here's the bag I love it too well but you're also I think love it too well but you're also I think love it too well but you're also I think the The X Factor there is really around the The X Factor there is really around the The X Factor there is really around the commitment to achieve something the commitment to achieve something the commitment to achieve something right if you're talking about an open right if you're talking about an open right if you're talking about an open source thing that the commitment that source thing that the commitment that source thing that the commitment that sort of bar is pretty high I have to go sort of bar is pretty high I have to go sort of bar is pretty high I have to go do a thing and read a thing and then do a thing and read a thing and then do a thing and read a thing and then sign up for something versus oh yeah I sign up for something versus oh yeah I sign up for something versus oh yeah I need a backpack I'm going to on vacation need a backpack I'm going to on vacation need a backpack I'm going to on vacation this summer let me just click by you this summer let me just click by you this summer let me just click by you know yeah and the thing is though that know yeah and the thing is though that know yeah and the thing is though that if I quit my job and became a full-time if I quit my job and became a full-time if I quit my job and became a full-time backpack influencer I would have no backpack influencer I would have no backpack influencer I would have no reason to have a bag right like this is reason to have a bag right like this is reason to have a bag right like this is the thing you have to like the whole the thing you have to like the whole the thing you have to like the whole like show me your travel kit or like like show me your travel kit or like like show me your travel kit or like here's my nintend like I had a really here's my nintend like I had a really here's my nintend like I had a really popular blog post for like all the best popular blog post for like all the best popular blog post for like all the best travel Nintendo switch EX ACC which was travel Nintendo switch EX ACC which was travel Nintendo switch EX ACC which was literally like all this crap that I literally like all this crap that I literally like all this crap that I bought to make it so gaming on the bought to make it so gaming on the bought to make it so gaming on the switch on the plane doesn't suck yes but switch on the plane doesn't suck yes but switch on the plane doesn't suck yes but I would need a reason to get on a plane I would need a reason to get on a plane I would need a reason to get on a plane so it's good that I keep my day job yes so it's good that I keep my day job yes so it's good that I keep my day job yes so that I can make $30 on Amazon click so that I can make $30 on Amazon click so that I can make $30 on Amazon click link things well and it this also

link things well and it this also link things well and it this also highlights uh something around highlights uh something around highlights uh something around influencer marketing that I'm super influencer marketing that I'm super influencer marketing that I'm super interested in that correlates with interested in that correlates with interested in that correlates with developer relations I was endlessly developer relations I was endlessly developer relations I was endlessly frustrated working for Microsoft and frustrated working for Microsoft and frustrated working for Microsoft and then AWS in developer relations that I then AWS in developer relations that I then AWS in developer relations that I reached the end of my sort of solar reached the end of my sort of solar reached the end of my sort of solar system right and you reach it pretty system right and you reach it pretty system right and you reach it pretty quickly I have the ability to reach out quickly I have the ability to reach out quickly I have the ability to reach out to in number of people but at some point to in number of people but at some point to in number of people but at some point that is exhausted and if I'm talking that is exhausted and if I'm talking that is exhausted and if I'm talking about the same thing over and over again about the same thing over and over again about the same thing over and over again it doubles down your your rate of return it doubles down your your rate of return it doubles down your your rate of return is going to collapse pretty is going to collapse pretty is going to collapse pretty quickly on top of that a lot of our quickly on top of that a lot of our quickly on top of that a lot of our favorite content creators are Tinkers favorite content creators are Tinkers favorite content creators are Tinkers they're playing with this they're going they're playing with this they're going they're playing with this they're going over here they're trying this product over here they're trying this product over here they're trying this product they're doing hardware and this really they're doing hardware and this really they're doing hardware and this really allows them it it provides them enough allows them it it provides them enough allows them it it provides them enough of an incentive to be able to go do that of an incentive to be able to go do that of an incentive to be able to go do that you know in a way that makes them feel you know in a way that makes them feel you know in a way that makes them feel good we love that we want to support our good we love that we want to support our good we love that we want to support our Tinkers that is exactly right you're Tinkers that is exactly right you're Tinkers that is exactly right you're right I never thought about it that way right I never thought about it that way right I never thought about it that way right because like someone was asking me right because like someone was asking me right because like someone was asking me why I'm still in Tech and like why I'm why I'm still in Tech and like why I'm why I'm still in Tech and like why I'm not bored and I'm like because there's not bored and I'm like because there's not bored and I'm like because there's new stuff coming up all the time because new stuff coming up all the time because new stuff coming up all the time because like exactly kubernetes wasn't a thing like exactly kubernetes wasn't a thing like exactly kubernetes wasn't a thing in the 90s and now it's a thing and like in the 90s and now it's a thing and like in the 90s and now it's a thing and like there'll be another thing absolutely there'll be another thing absolutely there'll be another thing absolutely that what like people don't realize when that what like people don't realize when that what like people don't realize when you have a little bit of time in the you have a little bit of time in the you have a little bit of time in the industry you can look back and see like industry you can look back and see like industry you can look back and see like like like Emily remember when everything like like Emily remember when everything like like Emily remember when everything on the planet ran on Apache oh yeah and on the planet ran on Apache oh yeah and on the planet ran on Apache oh yeah and then one Tuesday afternoon Apache was then one Tuesday afternoon Apache was then one Tuesday afternoon Apache was gone and everything in the planet ran on gone and everything in the planet ran on gone and everything in the planet ran on engine X and then you know what I mean engine X and then you know what I mean engine X and then you know what I mean and then that got subsumed and now and then that got subsumed and now and then that got subsumed and now engine X is just a thing that you use

engine X is just a thing that you use engine X is just a thing that you use when you want kubernetes like it's just when you want kubernetes like it's just when you want kubernetes like it's just like there's always going to be some new like there's always going to be some new like there's always going to be some new thing that's got a funny name that's thing that's got a funny name that's thing that's got a funny name that's going to be the thing that we're going going to be the thing that we're going going to be the thing that we're going to do tomorrow raspberry pies I'm still to do tomorrow raspberry pies I'm still to do tomorrow raspberry pies I'm still explaining that it's not really explaining that it's not really explaining that it's not really piie uh to like non-technical family piie uh to like non-technical family piie uh to like non-technical family members how could you not be excited members how could you not be excited members how could you not be excited about playing with that crap on this about playing with that crap on this about playing with that crap on this note I went to go get my regular dental note I went to go get my regular dental note I went to go get my regular dental cleaning um take care of your teeth and cleaning um take care of your teeth and cleaning um take care of your teeth and my dental hygienist was like oh you my dental hygienist was like oh you my dental hygienist was like oh you working T I was like yeah she's like can working T I was like yeah she's like can working T I was like yeah she's like can you explain AI to me so I'm sitting you explain AI to me so I'm sitting you explain AI to me so I'm sitting there trying to explain like yeah this there trying to explain like yeah this there trying to explain like yeah this is how it works so she's like oh well is how it works so she's like oh well is how it works so she's like oh well that makes sense see I shouldn't be that makes sense see I shouldn't be that makes sense see I shouldn't be super afraid of this like no you're fine super afraid of this like no you're fine super afraid of this like no you're fine everyone's fine just it's not the tech everyone's fine just it's not the tech everyone's fine just it's not the tech to be afraid of it's the people who to be afraid of it's the people who to be afraid of it's the people who wield the tech that you should be afraid wield the tech that you should be afraid wield the tech that you should be afraid of the ethics of that absolutely that's of the ethics of that absolutely that's of the ethics of that absolutely that's a whole other topic that we could crack a whole other topic that we could crack a whole other topic that we could crack open at a well that's that that's open at a well that's that that's open at a well that's that that's actually a really hard thing because actually a really hard thing because actually a really hard thing because like I get my paycheck from Microsoft like I get my paycheck from Microsoft like I get my paycheck from Microsoft but then I've also got a certain amount but then I've also got a certain amount but then I've also got a certain amount of what I call level privilege where I of what I call level privilege where I of what I call level privilege where I can get away with talking crap about can get away with talking crap about can get away with talking crap about seven Microsoft because it's like I seven Microsoft because it's like I seven Microsoft because it's like I don't feel good about that product but I don't feel good about that product but I don't feel good about that product but I feel good about this product and that's feel good about this product and that's feel good about this product and that's also something you have to do like also something you have to do like also something you have to do like Kelsey Hightower is a great example of Kelsey Hightower is a great example of Kelsey Hightower is a great example of someone that if he says it sucks no someone that if he says it sucks no someone that if he says it sucks no matter who he works for probably sucks matter who he works for probably sucks matter who he works for probably sucks so we should pay attention to that so we should pay attention to that so we should pay attention to that building that up is challenging because building that up is challenging because building that up is challenging because the next Generation if you're 23 and you the next Generation if you're 23 and you the next Generation if you're 23 and you have your first developer Advocate job have your first developer Advocate job have your first developer Advocate job and something sucks you got to be real and something sucks you got to be real and something sucks you got to be real careful you could shoot yourself in the careful you could shoot yourself in the careful you could shoot yourself in the foot if you said you talk against your foot if you said you talk against your foot if you said you talk against your oh absolutely but I also think that is a oh absolutely but I also think that is a oh absolutely but I also think that is a promise that we have to keep to promise that we have to keep to promise that we have to keep to ourselves and part of the ethics I ourselves and part of the ethics I ourselves and part of the ethics I believe of developer relations I am believe of developer relations I am believe of developer relations I am useful to a company because I will tell

useful to a company because I will tell useful to a company because I will tell them the truth and I will not sign off them the truth and I will not sign off them the truth and I will not sign off on something that I don't believe in and on something that I don't believe in and on something that I don't believe in and that was at Microsoft and Amazon and now that was at Microsoft and Amazon and now that was at Microsoft and Amazon and now even here like I believe in the products even here like I believe in the products even here like I believe in the products that we represent I believe in the that we represent I believe in the that we represent I believe in the brands that we work with that is really brands that we work with that is really brands that we work with that is really important to me because it's my important to me because it's my important to me because it's my authenticity and it's sort of my authenticity and it's sort of my authenticity and it's sort of my commitment to the broader industry and commitment to the broader industry and commitment to the broader industry and community that I will show up as as my community that I will show up as as my community that I will show up as as my whole self and only say what I believe whole self and only say what I believe whole self and only say what I believe so let me shift a little bit and talk so let me shift a little bit and talk so let me shift a little bit and talk about uh some of the emerging about uh some of the emerging about uh some of the emerging influencers that I'm seeing particularly influencers that I'm seeing particularly influencers that I'm seeing particularly in Tech space where it feels like and I in Tech space where it feels like and I in Tech space where it feels like and I feel bad saying this but like just bear feel bad saying this but like just bear feel bad saying this but like just bear with me and understand I do feel bad it with me and understand I do feel bad it with me and understand I do feel bad it seems like you can just start asking seems like you can just start asking seems like you can just start asking open-ended questions about job open-ended questions about job open-ended questions about job JavaScript and get 20,000 followers like JavaScript and get 20,000 followers like JavaScript and get 20,000 followers like in a in in a week and everyone thinks in a in in a week and everyone thinks in a in in a week and everyone thinks that oh now they're a JavaScript that oh now they're a JavaScript that oh now they're a JavaScript influencer and all they do is they're influencer and all they do is they're influencer and all they do is they're like React to redu what do you think if like React to redu what do you think if like React to redu what do you think if I was going to start a new project today I was going to start a new project today I was going to start a new project today should I use a weight in async like that should I use a weight in async like that should I use a weight in async like that is lazy am I an old man who shakes my is lazy am I an old man who shakes my is lazy am I an old man who shakes my fist at the cloud to say that that is fist at the cloud to say that that is fist at the cloud to say that that is lazy am I gatekeeping influencers should lazy am I gatekeeping influencers should lazy am I gatekeeping influencers should I just shut up um I don't think it's I just shut up um I don't think it's I just shut up um I don't think it's gatekeeping I think that we are getting gatekeeping I think that we are getting gatekeeping I think that we are getting a little hand shaky um I think it really a little hand shaky um I think it really a little hand shaky um I think it really has to do with one a changing ecosystem has to do with one a changing ecosystem has to do with one a changing ecosystem it's you know asking questions is part it's you know asking questions is part it's you know asking questions is part of the game I think I I'm not against of the game I think I I'm not against of the game I think I I'm not against asking questions I'm talking asking questions I'm talking asking questions I'm talking specifically about engagement bait yes specifically about engagement bait yes specifically about engagement bait yes well but then what's eng I mean yes so well but then what's eng I mean yes so well but then what's eng I mean yes so if someone is doing this constantly sure if someone is doing this constantly sure if someone is doing this constantly sure but I have absolutely tweeted things but I have absolutely tweeted things but I have absolutely tweeted things that people have thought were engagement that people have thought were engagement that people have thought were engagement bait and it was just my brain so to be

bait and it was just my brain so to be bait and it was just my brain so to be clear I don't want to like be defensive clear I don't want to like be defensive clear I don't want to like be defensive I just want to make sure that you're I just want to make sure that you're I just want to make sure that you're clear about what I'm talking about are clear about what I'm talking about are clear about what I'm talking about are people who are people who are people who are clearly trying to go viral asking clearly trying to go viral asking clearly trying to go viral asking generic object not well-meaning generic object not well-meaning generic object not well-meaning thoughtful young people who are getting thoughtful young people who are getting thoughtful young people who are getting involved in Tech I'm talking about involved in Tech I'm talking about involved in Tech I'm talking about people where their entire thread yes is people where their entire thread yes is people where their entire thread yes is I know I know what what you mean and you I know I know what what you mean and you I know I know what what you mean and you know obviously I'm not going to sit here know obviously I'm not going to sit here know obviously I'm not going to sit here and name people but I think I think and name people but I think I think and name people but I think I think there's absolutely examples of this I there's absolutely examples of this I there's absolutely examples of this I think that comes through I think people think that comes through I think people think that comes through I think people know they may not know right away right know they may not know right away right know they may not know right away right and this is sort of what I was talking and this is sort of what I was talking and this is sort of what I was talking about at the beginning you have these about at the beginning you have these about at the beginning you have these like quick Rises and where they're like quick Rises and where they're like quick Rises and where they're especially not just the asking questions especially not just the asking questions especially not just the asking questions um like uh the biggest thing for me is um like uh the biggest thing for me is um like uh the biggest thing for me is just being just being just being overly mean about things for no good overly mean about things for no good overly mean about things for no good reason yeah what is that about when did reason yeah what is that about when did reason yeah what is that about when did that start I hate that so much there's that start I hate that so much there's that start I hate that so much there's there's a huge difference between Fair there's a huge difference between Fair there's a huge difference between Fair criticism and just being mean and criticism and just being mean and criticism and just being mean and spiteful I I don't think that resonates spiteful I I don't think that resonates spiteful I I don't think that resonates with people so it's kind of fun in that with people so it's kind of fun in that with people so it's kind of fun in that moment because it's spicy and it's moment because it's spicy and it's moment because it's spicy and it's interesting and there's tea but I think interesting and there's tea but I think interesting and there's tea but I think it catches on really really fast it's it catches on really really fast it's it catches on really really fast it's like oh this is not someone yeah and like oh this is not someone yeah and like oh this is not someone yeah and then they double down and the replies then they double down and the replies then they double down and the replies and they're like ha I got yall you think and they're like ha I got yall you think and they're like ha I got yall you think that's hilar you know absolutely that's hilar you know absolutely that's hilar you know absolutely absolutely what a weird that lasts long absolutely what a weird that lasts long absolutely what a weird that lasts long that's not how to make a a decades long that's not how to make a a decades long that's not how to make a a decades long career that's a 5year spend at most so career that's a 5year spend at most so career that's a 5year spend at most so I'm trying to figure out what our role I'm trying to figure out what our role I'm trying to figure out what our role is I just I just wrapped you into our is I just I just wrapped you into our is I just I just wrapped you into our now so you're a we I love it uh with now so you're a we I love it uh with now so you're a we I love it uh with like the people who are older because like the people who are older because like the people who are older because you're because you know you've been 29 you're because you know you've been 29 you're because you know you've been 29 as long as I've known you I want those as long as I've known you I want those as long as I've known you I want those 22 and 24 year olds to have decade long 22 and 24 year olds to have decade long 22 and 24 year olds to have decade long careers I don't want them to burn out

careers I don't want them to burn out careers I don't want them to burn out but I feel like their insistence on but I feel like their insistence on but I feel like their insistence on feeling like they need to become an feeling like they need to become an feeling like they need to become an influencer is going to burn them out and influencer is going to burn them out and influencer is going to burn them out and then they're going to get tired I want then they're going to get tired I want then they're going to get tired I want them to do the tinkering them to do the tinkering them to do the tinkering yes talk about the yes talk about the yes talk about the tinkering yes as opposed to what I feel tinkering yes as opposed to what I feel tinkering yes as opposed to what I feel is being inverted which they're just is being inverted which they're just is being inverted which they're just talking a lot yes you know what I mean talking a lot yes you know what I mean talking a lot yes you know what I mean like go off have fun and then tell me like go off have fun and then tell me like go off have fun and then tell me what you did 100% so I this first became what you did 100% so I this first became what you did 100% so I this first became a real issue for me while I was at a real issue for me while I was at a real issue for me while I was at Microsoft on the best developer relation Microsoft on the best developer relation Microsoft on the best developer relation team I'll probably ever work on I love team I'll probably ever work on I love team I'll probably ever work on I love all of them it became apparent that all of them it became apparent that all of them it became apparent that there is a polarization in develop there is a polarization in develop there is a polarization in develop relations and I think any kind of relations and I think any kind of relations and I think any kind of visible person in Tech we on one end of visible person in Tech we on one end of visible person in Tech we on one end of the spectrum you have shine and on the the spectrum you have shine and on the the spectrum you have shine and on the other end of the spectrum you have other end of the spectrum you have other end of the spectrum you have substance and obviously that substance and obviously that substance and obviously that perfect medium is going to be this ideal perfect medium is going to be this ideal perfect medium is going to be this ideal person where they they know all the tech person where they they know all the tech person where they they know all the tech and they're so great but I would say and they're so great but I would say and they're so great but I would say most of us fall somewhere between this most of us fall somewhere between this most of us fall somewhere between this line and I think you know you can talk line and I think you know you can talk line and I think you know you can talk about like the ability to communicate about like the ability to communicate about like the ability to communicate the ability to reach people the ability the ability to reach people the ability the ability to reach people the ability to show up and be authentic that's sort to show up and be authentic that's sort to show up and be authentic that's sort of on this sort of shine side where of on this sort of shine side where of on this sort of shine side where people really feel a connection and then people really feel a connection and then people really feel a connection and then on the substance side is do I understand on the substance side is do I understand on the substance side is do I understand the tech have I had that those years of the tech have I had that those years of the tech have I had that those years of experience actually coding in a job that experience actually coding in a job that experience actually coding in a job that is really important um because it's this is really important um because it's this is really important um because it's this background that then informs all of this background that then informs all of this background that then informs all of this I think if you get too far out on either I think if you get too far out on either I think if you get too far out on either side of that you're going to have side of that you're going to have side of that you're going to have problems yeah but I I this you're right problems yeah but I I this you're right problems yeah but I I this you're right in that they're focusing all on the in that they're focusing all on the in that they're focusing all on the shine and not on the substance and again shine and not on the substance and again shine and not on the substance and again it's going to bite them at some point

it's going to bite them at some point it's going to bite them at some point you can you can do that for a couple you can you can do that for a couple you can you can do that for a couple years you can do that but it's going to years you can do that but it's going to years you can do that but it's going to buy you right and I want as an buy you right and I want as an buy you right and I want as an elder uh to see them elder uh to see them elder uh to see them succeed but I feel like I have to succeed but I feel like I have to succeed but I feel like I have to recognize my generational like location recognize my generational like location recognize my generational like location and where I came into Tech and and where I came into Tech and and where I came into Tech and understand that like it's easy for old understand that like it's easy for old understand that like it's easy for old dude to look backwards and say hang in dude to look backwards and say hang in dude to look backwards and say hang in there kid stick in the tech for five there kid stick in the tech for five there kid stick in the tech for five years when there's layoffs and there's years when there's layoffs and there's years when there's layoffs and there's interest rates and all this kind of interest rates and all this kind of interest rates and all this kind of stuff because if they would stick in for stuff because if they would stick in for stuff because if they would stick in for five years they're going to have this five years they're going to have this five years they're going to have this wonderful five-year career but they need wonderful five-year career but they need wonderful five-year career but they need to not be chased out of attack by jerks to not be chased out of attack by jerks to not be chased out of attack by jerks they need to not be laid off like they need to not be laid off like they need to not be laid off like there's all these different Perfect there's all these different Perfect there's all these different Perfect Storm things that have to work and if Storm things that have to work and if Storm things that have to work and if that happens though stick in you know that happens though stick in you know that happens though stick in you know stick stick in there young person in stick stick in there young person in stick stick in there young person in five or 10 years you're going to have five or 10 years you're going to have five or 10 years you're going to have the war stories that make all the older the war stories that make all the older the war stories that make all the older influencers so darn interesting well and influencers so darn interesting well and influencers so darn interesting well and I'll I'll use my career as an example I'll I'll use my career as an example I'll I'll use my career as an example not all of it was in tech but I spun in not all of it was in tech but I spun in not all of it was in tech but I spun in mud for years I mean I I tried so many mud for years I mean I I tried so many mud for years I mean I I tried so many different Avenues to get where I wanted different Avenues to get where I wanted different Avenues to get where I wanted to go and it was so frustrating I was to go and it was so frustrating I was to go and it was so frustrating I was not achieving what I wanted to achieve not achieving what I wanted to achieve not achieving what I wanted to achieve and even when I moved into Tech I and even when I moved into Tech I and even when I moved into Tech I thought oh what a waste that was a thought oh what a waste that was a thought oh what a waste that was a complete waste of time none of these complete waste of time none of these complete waste of time none of these skills I've learned will transfer but skills I've learned will transfer but skills I've learned will transfer but all of those skills transferred and that all of those skills transferred and that all of those skills transferred and that time spinning in the mud was really time spinning in the mud was really time spinning in the mud was really really important not just for my skills really important not just for my skills really important not just for my skills but also growing my own grit and but also growing my own grit and but also growing my own grit and resilience which by the way if you resilience which by the way if you resilience which by the way if you expect to get up in front of tens or expect to get up in front of tens or expect to get up in front of tens or hundreds of thousands of people and put hundreds of thousands of people and put hundreds of thousands of people and put yourself out there you need because you yourself out there you need because you yourself out there you need because you do have that 10% of people who are going do have that 10% of people who are going do have that 10% of people who are going to come after you and criticize you for

to come after you and criticize you for to come after you and criticize you for no good reason yeah and you have to be no good reason yeah and you have to be no good reason yeah and you have to be able to put on some dragon skin and and able to put on some dragon skin and and able to put on some dragon skin and and you know survive that so having all of you know survive that so having all of you know survive that so having all of that is is really critical to things but that is is really critical to things but that is is really critical to things but I think yeah this this stick with it is I think yeah this this stick with it is I think yeah this this stick with it is really important it's so hard though really important it's so hard though really important it's so hard though because again someone who has been lucky because again someone who has been lucky because again someone who has been lucky enough to not have any major issues in enough to not have any major issues in enough to not have any major issues in 30 plus years it's easy for me to say 30 plus years it's easy for me to say 30 plus years it's easy for me to say stick with it you know what I mean stick with it you know what I mean stick with it you know what I mean totally uh same thing with my kids like totally uh same thing with my kids like totally uh same thing with my kids like telling telling any young person or any telling telling any young person or any telling telling any young person or any early in career person it's going to be early in career person it's going to be early in career person it's going to be okay hang in there when you just don't okay hang in there when you just don't okay hang in there when you just don't know if it's going to be okay is super know if it's going to be okay is super know if it's going to be okay is super challenging what other choice do we have challenging what other choice do we have challenging what other choice do we have it's all falling apart godp speed I mean it's all falling apart godp speed I mean it's all falling apart godp speed I mean at some point at some point at some point like quote right there that's the quote like quote right there that's the quote like quote right there that's the quote Emily that's your cold Emily that's your cold Emily that's your cold open even if we're not sure I would open even if we're not sure I would open even if we're not sure I would rather think it's okay and move in that rather think it's okay and move in that rather think it's okay and move in that direction yeah and having hope is direction yeah and having hope is direction yeah and having hope is important but our careers would have important but our careers would have important but our careers would have looked different in a different looked different in a different looked different in a different timetable you know I think I went to timetable you know I think I went to timetable you know I think I went to code school by accident and the the code school by accident and the the code school by accident and the the Golden Age of code school I think I went Golden Age of code school I think I went Golden Age of code school I think I went I started in developer relations in the I started in developer relations in the I started in developer relations in the Golden Age of developer relations yep Golden Age of developer relations yep Golden Age of developer relations yep and I think some of the the missteps and I think some of the the missteps and I think some of the the missteps happening right now is really people happening right now is really people happening right now is really people looking at that era and thinking it can looking at that era and thinking it can looking at that era and thinking it can be replicated right now but we live in a be replicated right now but we live in a be replicated right now but we live in a different world than we did 5 10 years different world than we did 5 10 years different world than we did 5 10 years ago right I was explaining to someone ago right I was explaining to someone ago right I was explaining to someone you I always give the advice to learn you I always give the advice to learn you I always give the advice to learn more about um the base of the pyramid so more about um the base of the pyramid so more about um the base of the pyramid so like if you feel like you're floating like if you feel like you're floating like if you feel like you're floating away or you're confused if you don't I away or you're confused if you don't I away or you're confused if you don't I don't understand react go deeper don't understand react go deeper don't understand react go deeper understand JavaScript I don't understand understand JavaScript I don't understand understand JavaScript I don't understand JavaScript understand see yep people

JavaScript understand see yep people JavaScript understand see yep people always say ah you're just saying that always say ah you're just saying that always say ah you're just saying that well but I grew up in the Golden Age of well but I grew up in the Golden Age of well but I grew up in the Golden Age of like see an assembler so I drove stick like see an assembler so I drove stick like see an assembler so I drove stick shift before I learned how to drive a shift before I learned how to drive a shift before I learned how to drive a self-driving car yes is that good advice self-driving car yes is that good advice self-driving car yes is that good advice when in a world of uber Hanselman says when in a world of uber Hanselman says when in a world of uber Hanselman says drive stick I don't know if that works drive stick I don't know if that works drive stick I don't know if that works for everybody but I do feel like I've for everybody but I do feel like I've for everybody but I do feel like I've always said this publicly take the level always said this publicly take the level always said this publicly take the level that you know that you are and go one that you know that you are and go one that you know that you are and go one level below until you feel uncomfortable level below until you feel uncomfortable level below until you feel uncomfortable and that's where you want to kind of and that's where you want to kind of and that's where you want to kind of like work that that knot in your back like work that that knot in your back like work that that knot in your back that muscle that feels tight push on that muscle that feels tight push on that muscle that feels tight push on that until you feel comfortable I I that until you feel comfortable I I that until you feel comfortable I I think it's excellent advice because at think it's excellent advice because at think it's excellent advice because at worst it's not going to hurt you and at worst it's not going to hurt you and at worst it's not going to hurt you and at best it makes a huge difference because best it makes a huge difference because best it makes a huge difference because even if you come off with more even if you come off with more even if you come off with more confidence and belief because you confidence and belief because you confidence and belief because you understand how this abstraction is understand how this abstraction is understand how this abstraction is actually working because that's all it actually working because that's all it actually working because that's all it is right we're we just continuously are is right we're we just continuously are is right we're we just continuously are moving ourselves up the stack if you're moving ourselves up the stack if you're moving ourselves up the stack if you're able to go down deeper and understand able to go down deeper and understand able to go down deeper and understand what is actually happening under the what is actually happening under the what is actually happening under the hood and think about those architectures hood and think about those architectures hood and think about those architectures and think about the the pros and cons of and think about the the pros and cons of and think about the the pros and cons of how to approach something at a minimum how to approach something at a minimum how to approach something at a minimum it's going to have you show up with more it's going to have you show up with more it's going to have you show up with more confidence and stand up taller and be confidence and stand up taller and be confidence and stand up taller and be able to kind of sit in rooms that able to kind of sit in rooms that able to kind of sit in rooms that previously you wouldn't be able to very previously you wouldn't be able to very previously you wouldn't be able to very cool well thank you so much for hanging cool well thank you so much for hanging cool well thank you so much for hanging out with me and for standing up with out with me and for standing up with out with me and for standing up with confidence in everything that you do we confidence in everything that you do we confidence in everything that you do we we we see you in the community and we we we see you in the community and we we we see you in the community and we appreciate your work thank you so much I appreciate your work thank you so much I appreciate your work thank you so much I appreciate it I want to encourage folks appreciate it I want to encourage folks appreciate it I want to encourage folks to take a look at Emily freeman.i and to take a look at Emily freeman.i and to take a look at Emily freeman.i and her new Venture Freeman and Forest her new Venture Freeman and Forest her new Venture Freeman and Forest that's Forest with2 ours.com you can that's Forest with2 ours.com you can that's Forest with2 ours.com you can find her all over Twitter and by Twitter find her all over Twitter and by Twitter find her all over Twitter and by Twitter I mean all over social uh as well as

I mean all over social uh as well as I mean all over social uh as well as checking out her books uh devops for checking out her books uh devops for checking out her books uh devops for dummies and 97 things for cloud dummies and 97 things for cloud dummies and 97 things for cloud engineers this has been another episode engineers this has been another episode engineers this has been another episode of Hansel minutes and I'll see you again of Hansel minutes and I'll see you again of Hansel minutes and I'll see you again next week next week next week [Music]