Computer Science for Kids with Jen Looper

Hi, I'm Scott Hanselman and this is Hi, I'm Scott Hanselman and this is another episode of Hansel Minutes. Today another episode of Hansel Minutes. Today another episode of Hansel Minutes. Today I'm chatting with Jen Luber. She's the I'm chatting with Jen Luber. She's the I'm chatting with Jen Luber. She's the author of Computer Science for Kids, a author of Computer Science for Kids, a author of Computer Science for Kids, a storytelling approach book from WY. How storytelling approach book from WY. How storytelling approach book from WY. How are you? I'm doing great. Thanks so much are you? I'm doing great. Thanks so much are you? I'm doing great. Thanks so much for having me on your show again. Yeah, for having me on your show again. Yeah, for having me on your show again. Yeah, you were on like 700 episodes ago or 600 you were on like 700 episodes ago or 600 you were on like 700 episodes ago or 600 episodes ago. I'm coming up on episode episodes ago. I'm coming up on episode episodes ago. I'm coming up on episode 1,00. So, it's been a long time. 1,00. So, it's been a long time. 1,00. So, it's been a long time. Certainly well before you wrote this uh Certainly well before you wrote this uh Certainly well before you wrote this uh wrote this book. Definitely lot of water wrote this book. Definitely lot of water wrote this book. Definitely lot of water under the bridge for sure. But you have under the bridge for sure. But you have under the bridge for sure. But you have been an educator like as long as I've been an educator like as long as I've been an educator like as long as I've known you, like your passion and mine known you, like your passion and mine known you, like your passion and mine collide very much because it's like collide very much because it's like collide very much because it's like we're here to teach and even if you're we're here to teach and even if you're we're here to teach and even if you're working for Microsoft or AWS or working for Microsoft or AWS or working for Microsoft or AWS or whatever, you do it through the lens of whatever, you do it through the lens of whatever, you do it through the lens of education. Have you always been wired education. Have you always been wired education. Have you always been wired like that? I think so. I was just like that? I think so. I was just like that? I think so. I was just thinking back on this and I just thinking back on this and I just thinking back on this and I just realized I come from this long line of realized I come from this long line of realized I come from this long line of educators. My grandmother was the first educators. My grandmother was the first educators. My grandmother was the first woman to get a master's from Oklahoma woman to get a master's from Oklahoma woman to get a master's from Oklahoma State University back in the day. She State University back in the day. She State University back in the day. She and she was born in like and she was born in like and she was born in like 1899. She was born in Texas before it 1899. She was born in Texas before it 1899. She was born in Texas before it was the state covered wagon, the whole was the state covered wagon, the whole was the state covered wagon, the whole shebang. And um and then my mother was a shebang. And um and then my mother was a shebang. And um and then my mother was a first grade teacher in the Santa Monica first grade teacher in the Santa Monica first grade teacher in the Santa Monica public schools. So, um, and I just public schools. So, um, and I just public schools. So, um, and I just realized that a lot of the things she realized that a lot of the things she realized that a lot of the things she did with us kids was completely linked did with us kids was completely linked did with us kids was completely linked to the way she taught those first to the way she taught those first to the way she taught those first graders. It's just like I I start to graders. It's just like I I start to graders. It's just like I I start to realize now there's this long line of realize now there's this long line of realize now there's this long line of connections. So, being educated and connections. So, being educated and connections. So, being educated and educating and doing it in a fun way is educating and doing it in a fun way is educating and doing it in a fun way is something that's infused in your whole something that's infused in your whole something that's infused in your whole lineage. I think so. Yeah, it's a long lineage. I think so. Yeah, it's a long lineage. I think so. Yeah, it's a long line and I think my daughter's going to line and I think my daughter's going to line and I think my daughter's going to be a teacher, too, which is really cool.

be a teacher, too, which is really cool. be a teacher, too, which is really cool. Have I know that you've done lectures Have I know that you've done lectures Have I know that you've done lectures and talks and we can find videos of you and talks and we can find videos of you and talks and we can find videos of you online. You've even developed curricula online. You've even developed curricula online. You've even developed curricula uh and have a very fantastic uh beginner uh and have a very fantastic uh beginner uh and have a very fantastic uh beginner web uh developer uh course on GitHub web uh developer uh course on GitHub web uh developer uh course on GitHub that's been around for for years. It's that's been around for for years. It's that's been around for for years. It's it's seinal indeed. But have you ever it's seinal indeed. But have you ever it's seinal indeed. But have you ever taught uh formally? taught uh formally? taught uh formally? Let's see. So um I have taught Let's see. So um I have taught Let's see. So um I have taught preschoolers when I was in college. So I preschoolers when I was in college. So I preschoolers when I was in college. So I was working in the campus daycare. I was was working in the campus daycare. I was was working in the campus daycare. I was a student teacher there. So my specialty a student teacher there. So my specialty a student teacher there. So my specialty were the three-year-olds at that time. were the three-year-olds at that time. were the three-year-olds at that time. Um they're the best. And then um I just Um they're the best. And then um I just Um they're the best. And then um I just got certified to teach as a substitute got certified to teach as a substitute got certified to teach as a substitute in K12. So been doing a lot of first in K12. So been doing a lot of first in K12. So been doing a lot of first grade kind of subbing. Um but in terms grade kind of subbing. Um but in terms grade kind of subbing. Um but in terms of formal teaching, I have taught at of formal teaching, I have taught at of formal teaching, I have taught at Boston University's Metropolitan Boston University's Metropolitan Boston University's Metropolitan College. That's um that is uh teaching College. That's um that is uh teaching College. That's um that is uh teaching front-end software technology. I think front-end software technology. I think front-end software technology. I think I'm going to teach a course on project I'm going to teach a course on project I'm going to teach a course on project management pretty soon. And then I was management pretty soon. And then I was management pretty soon. And then I was an adjunct as I was switching from being an adjunct as I was switching from being an adjunct as I was switching from being in the academy to to becoming a in the academy to to becoming a in the academy to to becoming a full-time technologist. I was full-time technologist. I was full-time technologist. I was adjuncting. Um, so I taught in the adjuncting. Um, so I taught in the adjuncting. Um, so I taught in the English department at Welssley College English department at Welssley College English department at Welssley College in Regis. I taught in the writing in Regis. I taught in the writing in Regis. I taught in the writing program at Welsley College. Um, and then program at Welsley College. Um, and then program at Welsley College. Um, and then a bit of adjuncting in French and Reges.

a bit of adjuncting in French and Reges. a bit of adjuncting in French and Reges. I had to think back because it was so I had to think back because it was so I had to think back because it was so long ago, but yeah, a lot of a lot of long ago, but yeah, a lot of a lot of long ago, but yeah, a lot of a lot of teaching here and there. Um, I thought teaching here and there. Um, I thought teaching here and there. Um, I thought many many times of getting my many many times of getting my many many times of getting my certificate and just doing the thing, certificate and just doing the thing, certificate and just doing the thing, getting my teaching certificate and just getting my teaching certificate and just getting my teaching certificate and just teaching and something is always teaching and something is always teaching and something is always blocking me and I I think that that door blocking me and I I think that that door blocking me and I I think that that door may be finally closed for me. So, it's may be finally closed for me. So, it's may be finally closed for me. So, it's an it's been an interesting few months an it's been an interesting few months an it's been an interesting few months of kind of self self analysis. What do I of kind of self self analysis. What do I of kind of self self analysis. What do I want to do, you know? But it's all it's want to do, you know? But it's all it's want to do, you know? But it's all it's all teaching though at its heart though, all teaching though at its heart though, all teaching though at its heart though, right? Yeah. It's all teaching. Yeah. right? Yeah. It's all teaching. Yeah. right? Yeah. It's all teaching. Yeah. And curriculum development is way fun as And curriculum development is way fun as And curriculum development is way fun as we like to say, as the kids would say. we like to say, as the kids would say. we like to say, as the kids would say. It's wicked cool. as we say in Boston. It's wicked cool. as we say in Boston. It's wicked cool. as we say in Boston. You know, I I I know that teaching is is You know, I I I know that teaching is is You know, I I I know that teaching is is is such a an honorable discipline and is such a an honorable discipline and is such a an honorable discipline and people always talk about how teachers people always talk about how teachers people always talk about how teachers are so selfless, but this is are so selfless, but this is are so selfless, but this is controversial, but it's an incredibly controversial, but it's an incredibly controversial, but it's an incredibly selfish thing to be a teacher because selfish thing to be a teacher because selfish thing to be a teacher because it's so rewarding that I can't not do it it's so rewarding that I can't not do it it's so rewarding that I can't not do it because that feeling of like I just lit because that feeling of like I just lit because that feeling of like I just lit someone's brain on fire and they're so someone's brain on fire and they're so someone's brain on fire and they're so excited. The feeling that I get from excited. The feeling that I get from excited. The feeling that I get from teaching someone is so I think about I teaching someone is so I think about I teaching someone is so I think about I am so selfish to want to have that am so selfish to want to have that am so selfish to want to have that feeling all the time. Yeah, it's a great feeling all the time. Yeah, it's a great feeling all the time. Yeah, it's a great privilege. It's a great privilege to be privilege. It's a great privilege to be privilege. It's a great privilege to be able to be put in front of a classroom able to be put in front of a classroom able to be put in front of a classroom and put in front of a workshop, any and put in front of a workshop, any and put in front of a workshop, any workshop, you know, to just teach people workshop, you know, to just teach people workshop, you know, to just teach people who are willing to listen to you. I who are willing to listen to you. I who are willing to listen to you. I always feel like, wow, that's a that's a always feel like, wow, that's a that's a always feel like, wow, that's a that's a dopamine hit right there. They actually dopamine hit right there. They actually dopamine hit right there. They actually listening and looking at me, right? That listening and looking at me, right? That listening and looking at me, right? That is it. You actually, you nailed it. It is it. You actually, you nailed it. It is it. You actually, you nailed it. It is a it is it is a dopamine hit. So, is a it is it is a dopamine hit. So, is a it is it is a dopamine hit. So, with computer science for kids, you are with computer science for kids, you are with computer science for kids, you are effectively putting out a a curriculum effectively putting out a a curriculum effectively putting out a a curriculum here. Uh now, it could be used at any here. Uh now, it could be used at any here. Uh now, it could be used at any age, but you have a target age here that age, but you have a target age here that age, but you have a target age here that you're going for. Yeah. Uh so this is you're going for. Yeah. Uh so this is you're going for. Yeah. Uh so this is aligned to grades 6 through 8 in the US.

aligned to grades 6 through 8 in the US. aligned to grades 6 through 8 in the US. So those like 11 to 13 year old kids in So those like 11 to 13 year old kids in So those like 11 to 13 year old kids in middle school and middle school is one middle school and middle school is one middle school and middle school is one of those challenging ages, right? We all of those challenging ages, right? We all of those challenging ages, right? We all know this and it's but statistically and know this and it's but statistically and know this and it's but statistically and I did a little research on this. This is I did a little research on this. This is I did a little research on this. This is place where girls in particular tend to place where girls in particular tend to place where girls in particular tend to drop out of uh computer science topics. drop out of uh computer science topics. drop out of uh computer science topics. And I wanted to create a curriculum that And I wanted to create a curriculum that And I wanted to create a curriculum that would be the ultimate welcoming would be the ultimate welcoming would be the ultimate welcoming curriculum. And the the hook in this curriculum. And the the hook in this curriculum. And the the hook in this whole thing is that you should be able whole thing is that you should be able whole thing is that you should be able to visualize yourself as a builder. to visualize yourself as a builder. to visualize yourself as a builder. Don't think of software engineering as Don't think of software engineering as Don't think of software engineering as people who are in the basement with, you people who are in the basement with, you people who are in the basement with, you know, typing away through the wee hours know, typing away through the wee hours know, typing away through the wee hours of the night or doing heavy mathematical of the night or doing heavy mathematical of the night or doing heavy mathematical algorithmic um challenge code coding. algorithmic um challenge code coding. algorithmic um challenge code coding. Think of yourself as just building Think of yourself as just building Think of yourself as just building interesting solutions and think about, interesting solutions and think about, interesting solutions and think about, you know, how that can kind of be you know, how that can kind of be you know, how that can kind of be applied to many many different applied to many many different applied to many many different disciplines. So there's a hidden disciplines. So there's a hidden disciplines. So there's a hidden curriculum in this book around curriculum in this book around curriculum in this book around sustainability. The idea is um you're sustainability. The idea is um you're sustainability. The idea is um you're walking through a mystical forest with a walking through a mystical forest with a walking through a mystical forest with a guide. We're not we're never quite sure guide. We're not we're never quite sure guide. We're not we're never quite sure what that guide is all about, who she what that guide is all about, who she what that guide is all about, who she is, what's going on there, but they um is, what's going on there, but they um is, what's going on there, but they um they walk you through this forest and they walk you through this forest and they walk you through this forest and and present you with problems that need and present you with problems that need and present you with problems that need solving. You know, there's someone is solving. You know, there's someone is solving. You know, there's someone is stealing this um rare species of moss.

stealing this um rare species of moss. stealing this um rare species of moss. We don't know who's doing it, but maybe We don't know who's doing it, but maybe We don't know who's doing it, but maybe you need to think about securing a gate, you need to think about securing a gate, you need to think about securing a gate, securing some kind of access. So then we securing some kind of access. So then we securing some kind of access. So then we can talk about topics around security. can talk about topics around security. can talk about topics around security. It's aligned to computer science It's aligned to computer science It's aligned to computer science teachers association standards for teachers association standards for teachers association standards for grades 6 through 8. And if you look at grades 6 through 8. And if you look at grades 6 through 8. And if you look at CSte teachers, I think CSte teachers, I think CSte teachers, I think it's.org. Check me on that. Um, you can it's.org. Check me on that. Um, you can it's.org. Check me on that. Um, you can look at the standards and it's really look at the standards and it's really look at the standards and it's really interesting. It's pretty hardcore. I interesting. It's pretty hardcore. I interesting. It's pretty hardcore. I mean, I had to write about compliance mean, I had to write about compliance mean, I had to write about compliance for grades six through eight. You know, for grades six through eight. You know, for grades six through eight. You know, who knew? But they're they really want who knew? But they're they really want who knew? But they're they really want people to dig in early. Um, by the time people to dig in early. Um, by the time people to dig in early. Um, by the time you're in high school, you're supposed you're in high school, you're supposed you're in high school, you're supposed to be training from scratch machine to be training from scratch machine to be training from scratch machine learning models. It's very interesting. learning models. It's very interesting. learning models. It's very interesting. Um, and it's going to be evolving um, Um, and it's going to be evolving um, Um, and it's going to be evolving um, this year and next year. They're this year and next year. They're this year and next year. They're thinking of um, maybe making some edits thinking of um, maybe making some edits thinking of um, maybe making some edits to the standards to make it a little to the standards to make it a little to the standards to make it a little more um, AI focused. I think I think more um, AI focused. I think I think more um, AI focused. I think I think that's what's going to happen. Yeah, I that's what's going to happen. Yeah, I that's what's going to happen. Yeah, I think the book stands out in that it has think the book stands out in that it has think the book stands out in that it has that standards mapping. I mean, there's that standards mapping. I mean, there's that standards mapping. I mean, there's lots of like delightful, whimsical, lots of like delightful, whimsical, lots of like delightful, whimsical, random person writes a book on computer random person writes a book on computer random person writes a book on computer science for kids. You know, I have to be science for kids. You know, I have to be science for kids. You know, I have to be we have to be honest. But right here, we have to be honest. But right here, we have to be honest. But right here, I'm looking at the standards mapping and I'm looking at the standards mapping and I'm looking at the standards mapping and it's like, okay, this chapter covers it's like, okay, this chapter covers it's like, okay, this chapter covers that standard. and you have the that standard. and you have the that standard. and you have the identifiers listed out in exquisite identifiers listed out in exquisite identifiers listed out in exquisite detail, like you had to go and and go detail, like you had to go and and go detail, like you had to go and and go back and forth between identifier and back and forth between identifier and back and forth between identifier and standard to make sure that everything in standard to make sure that everything in standard to make sure that everything in the book hit a specific standard. And the book hit a specific standard. And the book hit a specific standard. And and frankly, I thought it was pretty and frankly, I thought it was pretty and frankly, I thought it was pretty advanced for I know sixth to eighth advanced for I know sixth to eighth advanced for I know sixth to eighth graders. I'm like, really? They need to graders. I'm like, really? They need to graders. I'm like, really? They need to know about that? I know. I was like, know about that? I know. I was like, know about that? I know. I was like, compliance, really? Just slam it to prod

compliance, really? Just slam it to prod compliance, really? Just slam it to prod and call it a day? No, I'm just kidding. and call it a day? No, I'm just kidding. and call it a day? No, I'm just kidding. But But But um but um what I wanted to do is start um but um what I wanted to do is start um but um what I wanted to do is start out with sort of some low code solutions out with sort of some low code solutions out with sort of some low code solutions and then we have the wonderful Microsoft and then we have the wonderful Microsoft and then we have the wonderful Microsoft make code and some micro:bit um projects make code and some micro:bit um projects make code and some micro:bit um projects that people can work on whether they that people can work on whether they that people can work on whether they have the actual device or they can do it have the actual device or they can do it have the actual device or they can do it online and then it progressively gets a online and then it progressively gets a online and then it progressively gets a little bit more into typing and uh by little bit more into typing and uh by little bit more into typing and uh by the end of it you're using A-Frame and the end of it you're using A-Frame and the end of it you're using A-Frame and making some virtual worlds. There's a making some virtual worlds. There's a making some virtual worlds. There's a really fun chapter where you're writing really fun chapter where you're writing really fun chapter where you're writing a a Twine story line. Right when I was a a Twine story line. Right when I was a a Twine story line. Right when I was writing this chapter, Twine completely writing this chapter, Twine completely writing this chapter, Twine completely redesigned their website, so I had to go redesigned their website, so I had to go redesigned their website, so I had to go do all those screenshots over again. So, do all those screenshots over again. So, do all those screenshots over again. So, you know how that goes. But, uh, super you know how that goes. But, uh, super you know how that goes. But, uh, super fun. Super fun. Let's talk about Make fun. Super fun. Let's talk about Make fun. Super fun. Let's talk about Make Code a little bit because, uh, I work Code a little bit because, uh, I work Code a little bit because, uh, I work with the Make Code team. I've always with the Make Code team. I've always with the Make Code team. I've always loved Make Code. I've got literally on loved Make Code. I've got literally on loved Make Code. I've got literally on my desk here, I'm holding up a a Make my desk here, I'm holding up a a Make my desk here, I'm holding up a a Make Code arcade device that you can get from Code arcade device that you can get from Code arcade device that you can get from Adafruit. It's, you know, we all love Adafruit. It's, you know, we all love Adafruit. It's, you know, we all love Scratch, but I feel like Make Code Scratch, but I feel like Make Code Scratch, but I feel like Make Code really takes it to the next level. And really takes it to the next level. And really takes it to the next level. And I'm curious why you picked Make Code and I'm curious why you picked Make Code and I'm curious why you picked Make Code and Micro:bit as your opening.

Micro:bit as your opening. Micro:bit as your opening. Yes. Um, lot of love for Make Code and Yes. Um, lot of love for Make Code and Yes. Um, lot of love for Make Code and Micro:bit. I love I love the way Make Micro:bit. I love I love the way Make Micro:bit. I love I love the way Make Code has an entire community and an Code has an entire community and an Code has an entire community and an entire ecosystem built into it. Same entire ecosystem built into it. Same entire ecosystem built into it. Same thing with Micro:bit. Micro:bit is also thing with Micro:bit. Micro:bit is also thing with Micro:bit. Micro:bit is also the foundation behind it. So, it's a the foundation behind it. So, it's a the foundation behind it. So, it's a product I can absolutely get behind. Um, product I can absolutely get behind. Um, product I can absolutely get behind. Um, and I feel like I feel it's a blockbased and I feel like I feel it's a blockbased and I feel like I feel it's a blockbased language just like Scratch, but I felt language just like Scratch, but I felt language just like Scratch, but I felt like um once once you engage with Make like um once once you engage with Make like um once once you engage with Make Code, you can see all the cool projects Code, you can see all the cool projects Code, you can see all the cool projects that you can also make. So, it's like that you can also make. So, it's like that you can also make. So, it's like you can take the book and just do the you can take the book and just do the you can take the book and just do the thing or you can jump into that thing or you can jump into that thing or you can jump into that community and make more and more and community and make more and more and community and make more and more and more things. So, um I just thought Make more things. So, um I just thought Make more things. So, um I just thought Make Code was a really great um solution to Code was a really great um solution to Code was a really great um solution to try and and then it led right into the try and and then it led right into the try and and then it led right into the microbit aspect as well. So, the microbit aspect as well. So, the microbit aspect as well. So, the microbit is what? It's a physical device microbit is what? It's a physical device microbit is what? It's a physical device that allow gives you some sensors and that allow gives you some sensors and that allow gives you some sensors and sensors are super important for the sensors are super important for the sensors are super important for the project here where we discover these project here where we discover these project here where we discover these these fireflies. Yeah. Um Yeah. And I these fireflies. Yeah. Um Yeah. And I these fireflies. Yeah. Um Yeah. And I love that it's has a strong emulator love that it's has a strong emulator love that it's has a strong emulator with it so that if you don't have the with it so that if you don't have the with it so that if you don't have the device, you know, which a lot of people device, you know, which a lot of people device, you know, which a lot of people won't, then you can just go ahead and won't, then you can just go ahead and won't, then you can just go ahead and try it in the emulator. So, yeah, that's try it in the emulator. So, yeah, that's try it in the emulator. So, yeah, that's a great point. I mean, the device, I a great point. I mean, the device, I a great point. I mean, the device, I think, is like $15. You can find them think, is like $15. You can find them think, is like $15. You can find them anywhere. It looks like a little circuit anywhere. It looks like a little circuit anywhere. It looks like a little circuit board, but you can also just plug the board, but you can also just plug the board, but you can also just plug the device into a breadboard. So someone can device into a breadboard. So someone can device into a breadboard. So someone can get started with these projects uh for get started with these projects uh for get started with these projects uh for nothing for 20 bucks, but if they don't nothing for 20 bucks, but if they don't nothing for 20 bucks, but if they don't have them, the emulator puts it on the have them, the emulator puts it on the have them, the emulator puts it on the screen and it really looks like and acts screen and it really looks like and acts screen and it really looks like and acts like the real device. Yeah. Very like the real device. Yeah. Very like the real device. Yeah. Very important aspect for sure. Yeah. So important aspect for sure. Yeah. So important aspect for sure. Yeah. So everything in the entire book can be everything in the entire book can be everything in the entire book can be done with just a computer and a browser.

done with just a computer and a browser. done with just a computer and a browser. You don't need to have any physical You don't need to have any physical You don't need to have any physical devices. Exactly. That was really devices. Exactly. That was really devices. Exactly. That was really important to me because I know some of important to me because I know some of important to me because I know some of these devices, even if they're not that these devices, even if they're not that these devices, even if they're not that expensive, there's still that barrier. expensive, there's still that barrier. expensive, there's still that barrier. And the one thing that I've tried to do And the one thing that I've tried to do And the one thing that I've tried to do through my entire career is to make through my entire career is to make through my entire career is to make people understand that, you know, there people understand that, you know, there people understand that, you know, there is ability everywhere, but access is is ability everywhere, but access is is ability everywhere, but access is quite limited for a lot of regions. So, quite limited for a lot of regions. So, quite limited for a lot of regions. So, let's see what we can do to at least um let's see what we can do to at least um let's see what we can do to at least um fix that in our in any small way. Um, fix that in our in any small way. Um, fix that in our in any small way. Um, one thing about this curriculum is that one thing about this curriculum is that one thing about this curriculum is that there's um a teacher's website that goes there's um a teacher's website that goes there's um a teacher's website that goes with it. And if a teacher will just with it. And if a teacher will just with it. And if a teacher will just email me the um that they're interested email me the um that they're interested email me the um that they're interested in getting access, I'll give them the in getting access, I'll give them the in getting access, I'll give them the password. I didn't want to make password. I didn't want to make password. I didn't want to make everything open because it's like the everything open because it's like the everything open because it's like the answers to all the quizzes and answers to all the quizzes and answers to all the quizzes and everything else. So, you know, it'll everything else. So, you know, it'll everything else. So, you know, it'll happen. But, um, I just want teachers to happen. But, um, I just want teachers to happen. But, um, I just want teachers to always know they have access. And always know they have access. And always know they have access. And there's also an LMS imple um, there's also an LMS imple um, there's also an LMS imple um, integration for Canvas. It's done with integration for Canvas. It's done with integration for Canvas. It's done with common uh, common cartridge. So, with common uh, common cartridge. So, with common uh, common cartridge. So, with common cartridge, you can design um, the common cartridge, you can design um, the common cartridge, you can design um, the coursework on your LMS and then you can coursework on your LMS and then you can coursework on your LMS and then you can pull it into your um, any any LMS that pull it into your um, any any LMS that pull it into your um, any any LMS that supports that. LMS being learning supports that. LMS being learning supports that. LMS being learning management systems. I'm digging into management systems. I'm digging into management systems. I'm digging into acronyms. Sorry about that. No, that was acronyms. Sorry about that. No, that was acronyms. Sorry about that. No, that was my next my follow-up question was going my next my follow-up question was going my next my follow-up question was going to be what is an LMS? And now I know.

to be what is an LMS? And now I know. to be what is an LMS? And now I know. Now, what about for home learners? I Now, what about for home learners? I Now, what about for home learners? I know that there are a lot of parents know that there are a lot of parents know that there are a lot of parents that would love to teach something like that would love to teach something like that would love to teach something like this at home that can they do that as this at home that can they do that as this at home that can they do that as well? Yeah, definitely. And I think I've well? Yeah, definitely. And I think I've well? Yeah, definitely. And I think I've had some of the better reactions from had some of the better reactions from had some of the better reactions from home homeschoolers um who are who are home homeschoolers um who are who are home homeschoolers um who are who are looking to, you know, just have some looking to, you know, just have some looking to, you know, just have some kind of curriculum that's aligned to kind of curriculum that's aligned to kind of curriculum that's aligned to something that will that they can walk something that will that they can walk something that will that they can walk through progressively. So um yeah, lots through progressively. So um yeah, lots through progressively. So um yeah, lots of lots of folks can just pick up the of lots of folks can just pick up the of lots of folks can just pick up the book, grab the website, I'll give you book, grab the website, I'll give you book, grab the website, I'll give you the password, jump in. the password, jump in. the password, jump in. When you were building something like When you were building something like When you were building something like this, how do you test it? Like do you this, how do you test it? Like do you this, how do you test it? Like do you find random kids? Do you start with the find random kids? Do you start with the find random kids? Do you start with the local school district? How do you know a local school district? How do you know a local school district? How do you know a book like this works when you're book like this works when you're book like this works when you're effectively making curriculum? effectively making curriculum? effectively making curriculum? Yeah, that is the hard part and that you Yeah, that is the hard part and that you Yeah, that is the hard part and that you got to just bite the bullet and go talk got to just bite the bullet and go talk got to just bite the bullet and go talk to your local school. So, I went to our to your local school. So, I went to our to your local school. So, I went to our local school. I live in Welsley um and local school. I live in Welsley um and local school. I live in Welsley um and in Massachusetts so we have amazing in Massachusetts so we have amazing in Massachusetts so we have amazing public schools and um I went and talked public schools and um I went and talked public schools and um I went and talked to the computer science teacher got some to the computer science teacher got some to the computer science teacher got some of her pain points and one of their pain of her pain points and one of their pain of her pain points and one of their pain points was you know we just were points was you know we just were points was you know we just were struggling to find a curriculum. What struggling to find a curriculum. What struggling to find a curriculum. What happens a lot in public schools is they happens a lot in public schools is they happens a lot in public schools is they ask the math department to staff their ask the math department to staff their ask the math department to staff their computer science courses, which is computer science courses, which is computer science courses, which is great. Math teachers are awesome, but great. Math teachers are awesome, but great. Math teachers are awesome, but it's a little bit different kind of it's a little bit different kind of it's a little bit different kind of muscle that needs to be exercised to muscle that needs to be exercised to muscle that needs to be exercised to create great computer science classes.

create great computer science classes. create great computer science classes. So, they um they're looking for So, they um they're looking for So, they um they're looking for curriculum. So, I presented the idea uh curriculum. So, I presented the idea uh curriculum. So, I presented the idea uh to a couple different teachers there. to a couple different teachers there. to a couple different teachers there. And then they got me in front of a focus And then they got me in front of a focus And then they got me in front of a focus group of middle school kids and that was group of middle school kids and that was group of middle school kids and that was terrifying. terrifying. terrifying. all these sixth graders looking at me all these sixth graders looking at me all these sixth graders looking at me like, "Oh golly, here comes auntie, you like, "Oh golly, here comes auntie, you like, "Oh golly, here comes auntie, you know, she's gonna create something know, she's gonna create something know, she's gonna create something weird." Um, and I just showed them. I weird." Um, and I just showed them. I weird." Um, and I just showed them. I wanted to get an idea about the art, wanted to get an idea about the art, wanted to get an idea about the art, whether they thought it was coolish, you whether they thought it was coolish, you whether they thought it was coolish, you know, whether it was interesting. And I know, whether it was interesting. And I know, whether it was interesting. And I think the I got the approval, stamp of think the I got the approval, stamp of think the I got the approval, stamp of approval from those kids, which was approval from those kids, which was approval from those kids, which was nice. I think the biggest situation with nice. I think the biggest situation with nice. I think the biggest situation with this book, the biggest issue with this this book, the biggest issue with this this book, the biggest issue with this book is that it is a book. It's a book is that it is a book. It's a book is that it is a book. It's a textbook. M and I think the industry is textbook. M and I think the industry is textbook. M and I think the industry is kind of moving away from textbooks a kind of moving away from textbooks a kind of moving away from textbooks a little bit. So the next step for this little bit. So the next step for this little bit. So the next step for this whole thing and this is what the kids whole thing and this is what the kids whole thing and this is what the kids told me. The kids told me get these bits told me. The kids told me get these bits told me. The kids told me get these bits and pieces on video and make quests. So and pieces on video and make quests. So and pieces on video and make quests. So have something on your website that will have something on your website that will have something on your website that will allow people to have extra projects and allow people to have extra projects and allow people to have extra projects and quests. So I started that a little bit. quests. So I started that a little bit. quests. So I started that a little bit. If you go to the accompanying website, If you go to the accompanying website, If you go to the accompanying website, it's c it's c it's c number44kids.com club. Um so there are number44kids.com club. Um so there are number44kids.com club. Um so there are some quests that students can do to kind some quests that students can do to kind some quests that students can do to kind of build a little bit more. Um, it needs of build a little bit more. Um, it needs of build a little bit more. Um, it needs more work, but there's a lot of options more work, but there's a lot of options more work, but there's a lot of options there. Yeah, I mean, everything here can there. Yeah, I mean, everything here can there. Yeah, I mean, everything here can be built up into a quest and they could be built up into a quest and they could be built up into a quest and they could could be done online. You could add could be done online. You could add could be done online. You could add video. I mean, the the bones are all video. I mean, the the bones are all video. I mean, the the bones are all there, but it's still a fantastic book.

there, but it's still a fantastic book. there, but it's still a fantastic book. The one I've got is in full color with The one I've got is in full color with The one I've got is in full color with screenshots and code. And to your point, screenshots and code. And to your point, screenshots and code. And to your point, it gets it gets more and more and more it gets it gets more and more and more it gets it gets more and more and more complicated. Like, it's I think it's complicated. Like, it's I think it's complicated. Like, it's I think it's useful even for a refresher if someone useful even for a refresher if someone useful even for a refresher if someone is listening to the podcast. Maybe they is listening to the podcast. Maybe they is listening to the podcast. Maybe they did maybe they did tech 10 years ago or did maybe they did tech 10 years ago or did maybe they did tech 10 years ago or 15 years ago and they want to get get 15 years ago and they want to get get 15 years ago and they want to get get ramped up because by the end you have a ramped up because by the end you have a ramped up because by the end you have a whole system. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. whole system. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. whole system. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you've saved the forest. So, woo. And you've saved the forest. So, woo. And you've saved the forest. So, woo. Absolutely. One of the other things that Absolutely. One of the other things that Absolutely. One of the other things that I thought was really cool and you start I thought was really cool and you start I thought was really cool and you start this early on in the book is you have this early on in the book is you have this early on in the book is you have sections called think like a computer sections called think like a computer sections called think like a computer scientist. And I think that that's so scientist. And I think that that's so scientist. And I think that that's so important because it really is about important because it really is about important because it really is about problem solving when right now when we problem solving when right now when we problem solving when right now when we interview people we seem to make it interview people we seem to make it interview people we seem to make it about trivia. Do you remember this about trivia. Do you remember this about trivia. Do you remember this function? and you know how this library function? and you know how this library function? and you know how this library works. I'm not interested in that. I works. I'm not interested in that. I works. I'm not interested in that. I want to know whether or not the person's want to know whether or not the person's want to know whether or not the person's wired to think like a problem solver. wired to think like a problem solver. wired to think like a problem solver. Yeah. And you start that very early on Yeah. And you start that very early on Yeah. And you start that very early on in the book about there's no power. in the book about there's no power. in the book about there's no power. Let's think like a computer scientist. Let's think like a computer scientist. Let's think like a computer scientist. Yeah. What are you going to do? It's Yeah. What are you going to do? It's Yeah. What are you going to do? It's that computational thinking, that that computational thinking, that that computational thinking, that problemolving muscle that needs to be problemolving muscle that needs to be problemolving muscle that needs to be developed. And it all comes down to developed. And it all comes down to developed. And it all comes down to creative thinking again, which we keep creative thinking again, which we keep creative thinking again, which we keep talking about in the industry, but it I talking about in the industry, but it I talking about in the industry, but it I think a lot of us who are coming up as think a lot of us who are coming up as think a lot of us who are coming up as builders, who've been doing this for a builders, who've been doing this for a builders, who've been doing this for a long time, we're extremely creative long time, we're extremely creative long time, we're extremely creative people. And um and I think people don't people. And um and I think people don't people. And um and I think people don't even realize how much creativity is even realize how much creativity is even realize how much creativity is needed uh in the computer science realm.

needed uh in the computer science realm. needed uh in the computer science realm. Well, there's creative thinking and then Well, there's creative thinking and then Well, there's creative thinking and then there's also systems thinking, which has there's also systems thinking, which has there's also systems thinking, which has been a theme on this podcast. How does been a theme on this podcast. How does been a theme on this podcast. How does this thing fit within the larger system? this thing fit within the larger system? this thing fit within the larger system? Whether it be your example with the Whether it be your example with the Whether it be your example with the ecosystem, the actual nature, which is a ecosystem, the actual nature, which is a ecosystem, the actual nature, which is a system in itself, or the computer system system in itself, or the computer system system in itself, or the computer system that the kids build over the course of that the kids build over the course of that the kids build over the course of the time that they spend with the book. the time that they spend with the book. the time that they spend with the book. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. When you're saving Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. When you're saving Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. When you're saving the moss, you want to create a barrier. the moss, you want to create a barrier. the moss, you want to create a barrier. What kind of barrier is it? A gate? It What kind of barrier is it? A gate? It What kind of barrier is it? A gate? It better be because light needs to come better be because light needs to come better be because light needs to come through so that the moss can survive. through so that the moss can survive. through so that the moss can survive. These kind of things. So, you have to These kind of things. So, you have to These kind of things. So, you have to think kind of holistically. think kind of holistically. think kind of holistically. I think thinking holistically in in my I think thinking holistically in in my I think thinking holistically in in my opinion as I have two young two young opinion as I have two young two young opinion as I have two young two young sons is becoming a challenge because sons is becoming a challenge because sons is becoming a challenge because with the introduction of things like AI, with the introduction of things like AI, with the introduction of things like AI, kids are less interested in the little kids are less interested in the little kids are less interested in the little details. Like I always found the uh the details. Like I always found the uh the details. Like I always found the uh the little Radio Shack things where it's little Radio Shack things where it's little Radio Shack things where it's like get a battery and turn on a light like get a battery and turn on a light like get a battery and turn on a light to be endlessly fascinating. For some to be endlessly fascinating. For some to be endlessly fascinating. For some reason in the advent of the uh the iPad reason in the advent of the uh the iPad reason in the advent of the uh the iPad in the iPad age, kids are less in the iPad age, kids are less in the iPad age, kids are less interested in turning lights on with interested in turning lights on with interested in turning lights on with batteries. Now that they can just ask an batteries. Now that they can just ask an batteries. Now that they can just ask an AI to do anything, AI to do anything, AI to do anything, how do we keep them interested in this how do we keep them interested in this how do we keep them interested in this kind of stuff? It's really, you reminded kind of stuff? It's really, you reminded kind of stuff? It's really, you reminded me of something that our first grade me of something that our first grade me of something that our first grade teacher used to do, which in retrospect, teacher used to do, which in retrospect, teacher used to do, which in retrospect, I'm not sure you're it's a great idea, I'm not sure you're it's a great idea, I'm not sure you're it's a great idea, but she would basically give the kids but she would basically give the kids but she would basically give the kids screwdrivers and go to our local dump.

screwdrivers and go to our local dump. screwdrivers and go to our local dump. We have we don't have trash pickup in We have we don't have trash pickup in We have we don't have trash pickup in this town. We have to go to the dump. this town. We have to go to the dump. this town. We have to go to the dump. So, um, but there's a reusable section So, um, but there's a reusable section So, um, but there's a reusable section with all this electronics you can just with all this electronics you can just with all this electronics you can just grab. give the kids a screwdriver and grab. give the kids a screwdriver and grab. give the kids a screwdriver and have them dismantle things. And I like, have them dismantle things. And I like, have them dismantle things. And I like, "Oh my gosh, do they not do that "Oh my gosh, do they not do that "Oh my gosh, do they not do that anymore? That was so fun." Oh, because I anymore? That was so fun." Oh, because I anymore? That was so fun." Oh, because I didn't grow up doing that, but I I I'm didn't grow up doing that, but I I I'm didn't grow up doing that, but I I I'm so happy that my kids were able to. Oh so happy that my kids were able to. Oh so happy that my kids were able to. Oh my goodness. You didn't do that? That my goodness. You didn't do that? That my goodness. You didn't do that? That was not really I I think it's because was not really I I think it's because was not really I I think it's because there's less stuff that you can take there's less stuff that you can take there's less stuff that you can take apart. Like what are you going to take apart. Like what are you going to take apart. Like what are you going to take apart? An iPad or a toaster? Like apart? An iPad or a toaster? Like apart? An iPad or a toaster? Like there's nothing in between. But during there's nothing in between. But during there's nothing in between. But during my time there was like clock, radio, my time there was like clock, radio, my time there was like clock, radio, telephone combo, you know, things with telephone combo, you know, things with telephone combo, you know, things with capacitors. We were always busting capacitors. We were always busting capacitors. We were always busting things open. Everything but a TV. things open. Everything but a TV. things open. Everything but a TV. Anything that wasn't high voltage. Yes. Anything that wasn't high voltage. Yes. Anything that wasn't high voltage. Yes. Or some kind of chemicals. I would worry Or some kind of chemicals. I would worry Or some kind of chemicals. I would worry about some kind of chemicals leaking about some kind of chemicals leaking about some kind of chemicals leaking out. Freon. I don't even But um I I I out. Freon. I don't even But um I I I out. Freon. I don't even But um I I I think that we're missing shop class. You think that we're missing shop class. You think that we're missing shop class. You remember shop class? You know that. And remember shop class? You know that. And remember shop class? You know that. And home even. Home and shop. Those are home even. Home and shop. Those are home even. Home and shop. Those are gone. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's gone. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's gone. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's that's too bad. Um when I I went to that's too bad. Um when I I went to that's too bad. Um when I I went to Welsley College, which is a women's Welsley College, which is a women's Welsley College, which is a women's college, and one thing we were always college, and one thing we were always college, and one thing we were always requesting was cooking classes because requesting was cooking classes because requesting was cooking classes because we all knew we'd have to cook, but it we all knew we'd have to cook, but it we all knew we'd have to cook, but it was considered oppressive, you know. So, was considered oppressive, you know. So, was considered oppressive, you know. So, we were like, well, we want to learn how we were like, well, we want to learn how we were like, well, we want to learn how to cook, but we don't really want to to cook, but we don't really want to to cook, but we don't really want to turn into housewives. So, this whole turn into housewives. So, this whole turn into housewives. So, this whole political thing about home, but here we political thing about home, but here we political thing about home, but here we are, you know. Just speaking of the the are, you know. Just speaking of the the are, you know. Just speaking of the the the gendered aspect of things, the gendered aspect of things, the gendered aspect of things, yesterday, uh we spent the weekend with yesterday, uh we spent the weekend with yesterday, uh we spent the weekend with my 17-year-old and he had a bunch of his my 17-year-old and he had a bunch of his my 17-year-old and he had a bunch of his bros, cuz they're all bros over to the bros, cuz they're all bros over to the bros, cuz they're all bros over to the house, all the football team, like five house, all the football team, like five house, all the football team, like five guys in my house. And you know what they

guys in my house. And you know what they guys in my house. And you know what they were doing? They made a pair of jeans. were doing? They made a pair of jeans. were doing? They made a pair of jeans. They bought denim. They got muslin. They They bought denim. They got muslin. They They bought denim. They got muslin. They took apart one of the guys jeans and took apart one of the guys jeans and took apart one of the guys jeans and then they built a pattern out of it with then they built a pattern out of it with then they built a pattern out of it with the muslin and then got some denim um the muslin and then got some denim um the muslin and then got some denim um I'll text you the pictures. That's I'll text you the pictures. That's I'll text you the pictures. That's incredible. They got some um denim incredible. They got some um denim incredible. They got some um denim needles apparently cuz like and they're needles apparently cuz like and they're needles apparently cuz like and they're just they were sitting there on a bunch just they were sitting there on a bunch just they were sitting there on a bunch of bros on TikTok like how do you how do of bros on TikTok like how do you how do of bros on TikTok like how do you how do you do buttons on a jeans and they're you do buttons on a jeans and they're you do buttons on a jeans and they're watching the video and then they do it watching the video and then they do it watching the video and then they do it and they spent God freaking think 17 and they spent God freaking think 17 and they spent God freaking think 17 hours on these jeans. Wow. I'd love to hours on these jeans. Wow. I'd love to hours on these jeans. Wow. I'd love to see the result. I bet they're amazing. see the result. I bet they're amazing. see the result. I bet they're amazing. Yeah. I mean, they're they're they're Yeah. I mean, they're they're they're Yeah. I mean, they're they're they're pants, you know? I mean, they're jeans. pants, you know? I mean, they're jeans. pants, you know? I mean, they're jeans. I don't know if they're like, you know, I don't know if they're like, you know, I don't know if they're like, you know, fantastic, bespoke, perfect, but like I fantastic, bespoke, perfect, but like I fantastic, bespoke, perfect, but like I just thought it was so cool that a just thought it was so cool that a just thought it was so cool that a problem presented itself. And it was problem presented itself. And it was problem presented itself. And it was like I just imagine the conversation was like I just imagine the conversation was like I just imagine the conversation was probably something like, "Bro, those probably something like, "Bro, those probably something like, "Bro, those jeans are sick." Yeah, let's let's make jeans are sick." Yeah, let's let's make jeans are sick." Yeah, let's let's make them. Okay, how do we do that? I don't them. Okay, how do we do that? I don't them. Okay, how do we do that? I don't know. Google it. And then they Googled know. Google it. And then they Googled know. Google it. And then they Googled their way and this project's been going their way and this project's been going their way and this project's been going on for like two days. It's absolutely on for like two days. It's absolutely on for like two days. It's absolutely fascinating to watch. And that's great.

fascinating to watch. And that's great. fascinating to watch. And that's great. I love that from their perspective. I love that from their perspective. I love that from their perspective. They're building and building is the They're building and building is the They're building and building is the goal, right? I love that. And as a team, goal, right? I love that. And as a team, goal, right? I love that. And as a team, boy, that's there's a whole lot of boy, that's there's a whole lot of boy, that's there's a whole lot of lessons to be to be discerned from that lessons to be to be discerned from that lessons to be to be discerned from that from that activity. That's wonderful. from that activity. That's wonderful. from that activity. That's wonderful. You reminded me of a a little a magazine You reminded me of a a little a magazine You reminded me of a a little a magazine that used to be out by Consumer Reports that used to be out by Consumer Reports that used to be out by Consumer Reports called Penny Power magazine in the 80s called Penny Power magazine in the 80s called Penny Power magazine in the 80s and it was all about how to kind of hack and it was all about how to kind of hack and it was all about how to kind of hack the system. So, we were all making our the system. So, we were all making our the system. So, we were all making our we were too cheap to pay for designer we were too cheap to pay for designer we were too cheap to pay for designer jeans, which were the thing in the 80s. jeans, which were the thing in the 80s. jeans, which were the thing in the 80s. So instead the that we learned how to So instead the that we learned how to So instead the that we learned how to embroider our own logo on the pocket so embroider our own logo on the pocket so embroider our own logo on the pocket so it would look like you know our own it would look like you know our own it would look like you know our own designer jeans. designer jeans. designer jeans. That's funny. I actually asked the boys That's funny. I actually asked the boys That's funny. I actually asked the boys what their like patch was going to be what their like patch was going to be what their like patch was going to be like what their leather like I thought like what their leather like I thought like what their leather like I thought the part that would be interesting would the part that would be interesting would the part that would be interesting would be designing the company or designing be designing the company or designing be designing the company or designing the logo and then putting the patch on. the logo and then putting the patch on. the logo and then putting the patch on. They weren't interested in any of that. They weren't interested in any of that. They weren't interested in any of that. Okay. They were more interested in the Okay. They were more interested in the Okay. They were more interested in the quality of the Japanese denim that they quality of the Japanese denim that they quality of the Japanese denim that they got online or whatever. Absolutely got online or whatever. Absolutely got online or whatever. Absolutely fascinating. These are like $100 pair of fascinating. These are like $100 pair of fascinating. These are like $100 pair of pants at this point, but that's pants at this point, but that's pants at this point, but that's fantastic. They made it themselves. It fantastic. They made it themselves. It fantastic. They made it themselves. It was fascinating to watch. Absolutely.

was fascinating to watch. Absolutely. was fascinating to watch. Absolutely. Hey friends, this is Scott. We're going Hey friends, this is Scott. We're going Hey friends, this is Scott. We're going to take a moment to thank a new sponsor, to take a moment to thank a new sponsor, to take a moment to thank a new sponsor, Sharegate by Work. You know, I've been Sharegate by Work. You know, I've been Sharegate by Work. You know, I've been thinking about moving my Google Suite thinking about moving my Google Suite thinking about moving my Google Suite organization over to M365, you know, and organization over to M365, you know, and organization over to M365, you know, and after that migration, uh, Shayen Gimby, after that migration, uh, Shayen Gimby, after that migration, uh, Shayen Gimby, what are the biggest challenges in what are the biggest challenges in what are the biggest challenges in driving adoption of new tools? Honestly, driving adoption of new tools? Honestly, driving adoption of new tools? Honestly, the biggest challenge is user education. the biggest challenge is user education. the biggest challenge is user education. People don't like change. And if they People don't like change. And if they People don't like change. And if they don't fully understand the new tools, don't fully understand the new tools, don't fully understand the new tools, they won't use them. You know, that they won't use them. You know, that they won't use them. You know, that leads to low adoption rates, which means leads to low adoption rates, which means leads to low adoption rates, which means missed opportunities for better missed opportunities for better missed opportunities for better collaboration and efficiency. You know, collaboration and efficiency. You know, collaboration and efficiency. You know, the problem is IT teams don't really the problem is IT teams don't really the problem is IT teams don't really have time to build and distribute and have time to build and distribute and have time to build and distribute and monitor training programs. So, we built monitor training programs. So, we built monitor training programs. So, we built it for them. You know, ShareGate offers it for them. You know, ShareGate offers it for them. You know, ShareGate offers 15 plus hours of end-user training 15 plus hours of end-user training 15 plus hours of end-user training courses designed to help organizations courses designed to help organizations courses designed to help organizations increase Microsoft 365 adoption without increase Microsoft 365 adoption without increase Microsoft 365 adoption without adding more work for the IT teams. You adding more work for the IT teams. You adding more work for the IT teams. You know, when users actually understand the know, when users actually understand the know, when users actually understand the tools at their disposal, they're more tools at their disposal, they're more tools at their disposal, they're more likely to use them effectively. And likely to use them effectively. And likely to use them effectively. And that's when you start seeing real that's when you start seeing real that's when you start seeing real productivity gains. That is very cool.

productivity gains. That is very cool. productivity gains. That is very cool. And that is one tool to migrate faster And that is one tool to migrate faster And that is one tool to migrate faster and secure your tenant. Check them out and secure your tenant. Check them out and secure your tenant. Check them out at sharegate.com. It's your at sharegate.com. It's your at sharegate.com. It's your out-of-the-box Microsoft 365 migration out-of-the-box Microsoft 365 migration out-of-the-box Microsoft 365 migration solution. It's packed with best solution. It's packed with best solution. It's packed with best practices and training information practices and training information practices and training information that's going to guide you at every step. that's going to guide you at every step. that's going to guide you at every step. Thanks for being a sponsor. So things Thanks for being a sponsor. So things Thanks for being a sponsor. So things like this, whether it be my kids making like this, whether it be my kids making like this, whether it be my kids making genes or computer science for kids, it's genes or computer science for kids, it's genes or computer science for kids, it's meant to have kids generating, not meant to have kids generating, not meant to have kids generating, not consuming. Yeah. I mean, ultimately consuming. Yeah. I mean, ultimately consuming. Yeah. I mean, ultimately that's what you're trying to do here, that's what you're trying to do here, that's what you're trying to do here, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And this right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And this right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And this is a we're in a an interesting moment in is a we're in a an interesting moment in is a we're in a an interesting moment in in in in education and I've worked in edtech for education and I've worked in edtech for education and I've worked in edtech for ages. I'm starting up my own studio. ages. I'm starting up my own studio. ages. I'm starting up my own studio. It's going to be an ed edte studio. Um It's going to be an ed edte studio. Um It's going to be an ed edte studio. Um but boy, we are really asking little but boy, we are really asking little but boy, we are really asking little kids to be consuming an awful lot of kids to be consuming an awful lot of kids to be consuming an awful lot of digital content, which is another digital content, which is another digital content, which is another interesting word. And I sat as a interesting word. And I sat as a interesting word. And I sat as a substitute teacher and watched those substitute teacher and watched those substitute teacher and watched those first graders being obliged to do hours first graders being obliged to do hours first graders being obliged to do hours of iPad work. And it hurt my heart. And of iPad work. And it hurt my heart. And of iPad work. And it hurt my heart. And the little boy, I I'll never forget this the little boy, I I'll never forget this the little boy, I I'll never forget this moment. This little boy looked up at me moment. This little boy looked up at me moment. This little boy looked up at me and he said, "IPADs are bad for your and he said, "IPADs are bad for your and he said, "IPADs are bad for your eyes." And so we had a conversation. I'm eyes." And so we had a conversation. I'm eyes." And so we had a conversation. I'm like, "Well, okay, here's what you can like, "Well, okay, here's what you can like, "Well, okay, here's what you can do. Just look outside. Look out the do. Just look outside. Look out the do. Just look outside. Look out the window every every 10 minutes." You window every every 10 minutes." You window every every 10 minutes." You know, this whole strategy. Jeez Louise.

know, this whole strategy. Jeez Louise. know, this whole strategy. Jeez Louise. Yeah. I I don't love that. I don't love Yeah. I I don't love that. I don't love Yeah. I I don't love that. I don't love that. Yeah. I My my kids and I actually that. Yeah. I My my kids and I actually that. Yeah. I My my kids and I actually call those eye push-ups where you look call those eye push-ups where you look call those eye push-ups where you look into the far distance and then look into the far distance and then look into the far distance and then look close and then look into the far close and then look into the far close and then look into the far distance and look close. when their eyes distance and look close. when their eyes distance and look close. when their eyes hurt, I say do eye push-ups. Oh, good hurt, I say do eye push-ups. Oh, good hurt, I say do eye push-ups. Oh, good idea. Good idea. I don't know if that's idea. Good idea. I don't know if that's idea. Good idea. I don't know if that's a thing or not, but it seems like a a thing or not, but it seems like a a thing or not, but it seems like a reasonable thing to do. But you're reasonable thing to do. But you're reasonable thing to do. But you're absolutely right. I mean, balancing absolutely right. I mean, balancing absolutely right. I mean, balancing consumption with creativity is consumption with creativity is consumption with creativity is challenging. Like, I have no doubt that challenging. Like, I have no doubt that challenging. Like, I have no doubt that the boys would have rather spent the the boys would have rather spent the the boys would have rather spent the weekend watching Netflix and there was weekend watching Netflix and there was weekend watching Netflix and there was like a TV going in the background like a TV going in the background like a TV going in the background watching March Madness. They were watching March Madness. They were watching March Madness. They were watching basketball. Mhm. But the the watching basketball. Mhm. But the the watching basketball. Mhm. But the the amount of attention that was spent on amount of attention that was spent on amount of attention that was spent on this was many many many many hours over this was many many many many hours over this was many many many many hours over many days. One day they went till 2 a.m. many days. One day they went till 2 a.m. many days. One day they went till 2 a.m. and made it into a sleepover. And I and made it into a sleepover. And I and made it into a sleepover. And I found the whole thing to be fascinating found the whole thing to be fascinating found the whole thing to be fascinating because in a time when people can't because in a time when people can't because in a time when people can't concentrate for more than a minute on on concentrate for more than a minute on on concentrate for more than a minute on on a Tik Tok, when something captures a Tik Tok, when something captures a Tik Tok, when something captures someone's attention, you should you someone's attention, you should you someone's attention, you should you should go with that. Yeah, definitely.

should go with that. Yeah, definitely. should go with that. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. And I Definitely. And I Definitely. And I think that their their attraction to think that their their attraction to think that their their attraction to something that's tactile and that's something that's tactile and that's something that's tactile and that's going to be beautiful potentially. The going to be beautiful potentially. The going to be beautiful potentially. The aesthetic aspect of what they're doing, aesthetic aspect of what they're doing, aesthetic aspect of what they're doing, I think is one of the hooks that we're I think is one of the hooks that we're I think is one of the hooks that we're we're forgetting a lot of times. You we're forgetting a lot of times. You we're forgetting a lot of times. You know, there's something really important know, there's something really important know, there's something really important about things you can hold and feel and about things you can hold and feel and about things you can hold and feel and and touch and experience from a sensual and touch and experience from a sensual and touch and experience from a sensual level. Yeah. And that's why I don't like level. Yeah. And that's why I don't like level. Yeah. And that's why I don't like I've said this before publicly, but I I've said this before publicly, but I I've said this before publicly, but I don't like AI art because it cheapens don't like AI art because it cheapens don't like AI art because it cheapens the the creation of art. It makes it too the the creation of art. It makes it too the the creation of art. It makes it too easy. Mhm. you know, you can take easy. Mhm. you know, you can take easy. Mhm. you know, you can take someone's work and just algorithmic it. someone's work and just algorithmic it. someone's work and just algorithmic it. Um, and I think I'm hoping in the next Um, and I think I'm hoping in the next Um, and I think I'm hoping in the next couple of years we'll see a return to couple of years we'll see a return to couple of years we'll see a return to the bespoke, the bespoke, the bespoke, whether it be bespoke clothing as whether it be bespoke clothing as whether it be bespoke clothing as opposed to cheap $2 like clothing halls opposed to cheap $2 like clothing halls opposed to cheap $2 like clothing halls and things like that. Yeah. And you and things like that. Yeah. And you and things like that. Yeah. And you know, I I noticed that you didn't use know, I I noticed that you didn't use know, I I noticed that you didn't use any uh any AI in your thing. Everything any uh any AI in your thing. Everything any uh any AI in your thing. Everything is bespoke, probably because AI was is bespoke, probably because AI was is bespoke, probably because AI was emerging at the time. Yes. Would you emerging at the time. Yes. Would you emerging at the time. Yes. Would you teach things differently or would you teach things differently or would you teach things differently or would you how would you incorporate AI and if so how would you incorporate AI and if so how would you incorporate AI and if so would it make it a better book or would would it make it a better book or would would it make it a better book or would it make the book worse? Boy, that's a it make the book worse? Boy, that's a it make the book worse? Boy, that's a great question and that is the question great question and that is the question great question and that is the question that educators are tackling now. What that educators are tackling now. What that educators are tackling now. What where does AI fit into our craft as as where does AI fit into our craft as as where does AI fit into our craft as as educators? Um I stopped teaching CS 601 educators? Um I stopped teaching CS 601 educators? Um I stopped teaching CS 601 which is my front-end development class which is my front-end development class which is my front-end development class at Boston University Met. paused it for at Boston University Met. paused it for at Boston University Met. paused it for a while while I figure this out and I a while while I figure this out and I a while while I figure this out and I haven't taken it back up because I don't haven't taken it back up because I don't haven't taken it back up because I don't know I don't know know I don't know know I don't know what what we can do to in to properly

what what we can do to in to properly what what we can do to in to properly incorporate incorporate incorporate code completion tools like Copilot and code completion tools like Copilot and code completion tools like Copilot and everything else Bolt and all the great everything else Bolt and all the great everything else Bolt and all the great tooling out there while still teaching tooling out there while still teaching tooling out there while still teaching fundamentals and I mean obviously we do fundamentals and I mean obviously we do fundamentals and I mean obviously we do need to teach fundamentals but it's just need to teach fundamentals but it's just need to teach fundamentals but it's just so easy to bang open Bolt and make it so easy to bang open Bolt and make it so easy to bang open Bolt and make it scaffold your a website or collive which scaffold your a website or collive which scaffold your a website or collive which is completely agentic you know just is completely agentic you know just is completely agentic you know just creating entire like drafts of your creating entire like drafts of your creating entire like drafts of your website for you um I think it's going to website for you um I think it's going to website for you um I think it's going to go back to the concept of being bespoke go back to the concept of being bespoke go back to the concept of being bespoke and you know let's open up VS Code turn and you know let's open up VS Code turn and you know let's open up VS Code turn off Copilot for the moment let's just off Copilot for the moment let's just off Copilot for the moment let's just create some HTML see what it does with create some HTML see what it does with create some HTML see what it does with no CSS no JavaScript nothing what does no CSS no JavaScript nothing what does no CSS no JavaScript nothing what does it look like okay now we're going to try it look like okay now we're going to try it look like okay now we're going to try to fix X let's do it by hand and another to fix X let's do it by hand and another to fix X let's do it by hand and another aspect that I've thought about for aspect that I've thought about for aspect that I've thought about for computer science classroom would be to computer science classroom would be to computer science classroom would be to um to do kind of code reviews to to take um to do kind of code reviews to to take um to do kind of code reviews to to take the opposite approach, have Clive the opposite approach, have Clive the opposite approach, have Clive scaffold you the entire website and then scaffold you the entire website and then scaffold you the entire website and then do a code review to see where there are do a code review to see where there are do a code review to see where there are problems or mistakes. That's for a problems or mistakes. That's for a problems or mistakes. That's for a little bit more advanced students. But I little bit more advanced students. But I little bit more advanced students. But I basically I I gave it a very simple basically I I gave it a very simple basically I I gave it a very simple prompt one time saying, you know, I need prompt one time saying, you know, I need prompt one time saying, you know, I need you to create X, Y, and Z. I didn't tell you to create X, Y, and Z. I didn't tell you to create X, Y, and Z. I didn't tell it what language or anything. Um and it it what language or anything. Um and it it what language or anything. Um and it just banged out a React website. Right.

just banged out a React website. Right. just banged out a React website. Right. So then I had to rip it all out and put So then I had to rip it all out and put So then I had to rip it all out and put in Vue because I that's I'm a Vue in Vue because I that's I'm a Vue in Vue because I that's I'm a Vue developer, you know. So I think there developer, you know. So I think there developer, you know. So I think there are some teachings around that, but are some teachings around that, but are some teachings around that, but that's for a little bit more that's for a little bit more that's for a little bit more intermediate student. That would be intermediate student. That would be intermediate student. That would be really interesting. I I was thinking really interesting. I I was thinking really interesting. I I was thinking about uh I had a gentleman named uh John about uh I had a gentleman named uh John about uh I had a gentleman named uh John Warner on the show a couple of hundred Warner on the show a couple of hundred Warner on the show a couple of hundred episodes ago talking about AI within the episodes ago talking about AI within the episodes ago talking about AI within the context of the five paragraph essay. And context of the five paragraph essay. And context of the five paragraph essay. And he's an English teacher and he's not a he's an English teacher and he's not a he's an English teacher and he's not a fan of the five paragraph essay. and he fan of the five paragraph essay. and he fan of the five paragraph essay. and he wrote a book on it called why they can't wrote a book on it called why they can't wrote a book on it called why they can't write and why introduction three write and why introduction three write and why introduction three paragraphs of supporting material and a paragraphs of supporting material and a paragraphs of supporting material and a final paragraph is a mistake and I never final paragraph is a mistake and I never final paragraph is a mistake and I never thought about the fact that you could thought about the fact that you could thought about the fact that you could use AI to teach writing by having it use AI to teach writing by having it use AI to teach writing by having it write a perfectly mid essay and then you write a perfectly mid essay and then you write a perfectly mid essay and then you get your graduate students to tear it get your graduate students to tear it get your graduate students to tear it apart and talk about like this is why apart and talk about like this is why apart and talk about like this is why it's midhm you can do that yeah I just wonder if you can do that yeah I just wonder if that's such a great use of our time, you that's such a great use of our time, you that's such a great use of our time, you know, as humans. know, as humans. know, as humans. That's the challenge. It's uh there's if That's the challenge. It's uh there's if That's the challenge. It's uh there's if you look at the Chronicle of Higher you look at the Chronicle of Higher you look at the Chronicle of Higher Education, there's a heartfelt article, Education, there's a heartfelt article, Education, there's a heartfelt article, you know, two years into the AI you know, two years into the AI you know, two years into the AI revolution for from for an educator, revolution for from for an educator, revolution for from for an educator, what it feels like. And he's basically what it feels like. And he's basically what it feels like. And he's basically he was he had a student who had been he was he had a student who had been he was he had a student who had been writing okay essays by hand, you know, writing okay essays by hand, you know, writing okay essays by hand, you know, clearly by hand, and then all of a clearly by hand, and then all of a clearly by hand, and then all of a sudden produced this beautifully sudden produced this beautifully sudden produced this beautifully polished, extremely wellargued, you polished, extremely wellargued, you polished, extremely wellargued, you know, very nicely done essay. is clearly know, very nicely done essay. is clearly know, very nicely done essay. is clearly a strategy, right? So, he got in front a strategy, right? So, he got in front a strategy, right? So, he got in front of the kid, you know, face to face, you of the kid, you know, face to face, you of the kid, you know, face to face, you know, this doesn't sound like you.

know, this doesn't sound like you. know, this doesn't sound like you. What's going on here? And just like What's going on here? And just like What's going on here? And just like straight barefaced, oh, it's mine is me. straight barefaced, oh, it's mine is me. straight barefaced, oh, it's mine is me. And you could hear him typing in chat And you could hear him typing in chat And you could hear him typing in chat GPT to get the right answers in the GPT to get the right answers in the GPT to get the right answers in the background. I was like, oh my gosh, background. I was like, oh my gosh, background. I was like, oh my gosh, we're training our students. I also have we're training our students. I also have we're training our students. I also have another friend who's a teacher um another friend who's a teacher um another friend who's a teacher um teaches in UMass, UMass Boston, and teaches in UMass, UMass Boston, and teaches in UMass, UMass Boston, and she's under very heavy pressure because she's under very heavy pressure because she's under very heavy pressure because she has a very heavy course load and she has a very heavy course load and she has a very heavy course load and she's not tenured. bunch of students she's not tenured. bunch of students she's not tenured. bunch of students putting in their essays. She's being putting in their essays. She's being putting in their essays. She's being pressured to use chatbt to grade them. pressured to use chatbt to grade them. pressured to use chatbt to grade them. So, it's like AI is talking to AI at So, it's like AI is talking to AI at So, it's like AI is talking to AI at this point. And I'm like, what in God's this point. And I'm like, what in God's this point. And I'm like, what in God's name are we doing at this point? And and name are we doing at this point? And and name are we doing at this point? And and again, this gets to that generational again, this gets to that generational again, this gets to that generational thing where you said that when you thing where you said that when you thing where you said that when you showed up to teach this class, you're showed up to teach this class, you're showed up to teach this class, you're like thinking that the kids are like thinking that the kids are like thinking that the kids are thinking, who is this auntie here? I am thinking, who is this auntie here? I am thinking, who is this auntie here? I am a person of a certain age thinking the a person of a certain age thinking the a person of a certain age thinking the same. When I go and teach the the same. When I go and teach the the same. When I go and teach the the response is okay, Zoomer, or okay, response is okay, Zoomer, or okay, response is okay, Zoomer, or okay, Boomer, or okay, whatever. You know what Boomer, or okay, whatever. You know what Boomer, or okay, whatever. You know what I mean? like I I I think I have some I mean? like I I I think I have some I mean? like I I I think I have some validity here. I think I have some validity here. I think I have some validity here. I think I have some bonafides. I would really encourage you bonafides. I would really encourage you bonafides. I would really encourage you to to listen to me, but uh I'm not sure to to listen to me, but uh I'm not sure to to listen to me, but uh I'm not sure how to get that message across how to get that message across how to get that message across effectively because I know we're going effectively because I know we're going effectively because I know we're going to miss something if we don't know how to miss something if we don't know how to miss something if we don't know how to change our own oil, you know, or we to change our own oil, you know, or we to change our own oil, you know, or we don't like I I always use the example of don't like I I always use the example of don't like I I always use the example of a uh an Uber. An Uber is so easy until a uh an Uber. An Uber is so easy until a uh an Uber. An Uber is so easy until the car breaks the car breaks the car breaks down and then what do you do? And then down and then what do you do? And then down and then what do you do? And then what do you do? Well, I do appreciate what do you do? Well, I do appreciate what do you do? Well, I do appreciate that you did not use AI within this. It that you did not use AI within this. It that you did not use AI within this. It would be interesting to to think about would be interesting to to think about would be interesting to to think about how it might fit, but honestly, being how it might fit, but honestly, being how it might fit, but honestly, being able to do all of this work bespoke and able to do all of this work bespoke and able to do all of this work bespoke and then you use the uh the A-frame. Maybe then you use the uh the A-frame. Maybe then you use the uh the A-frame. Maybe talk a little bit about that A-frame

talk a little bit about that A-frame talk a little bit about that A-frame library and why you use that because library and why you use that because library and why you use that because things get things get 3D pretty quickly things get things get 3D pretty quickly things get things get 3D pretty quickly in the book. Yeah, they do. Why on earth in the book. Yeah, they do. Why on earth in the book. Yeah, they do. Why on earth did I choose A-frame after I remind did I choose A-frame after I remind did I choose A-frame after I remind myself? Um, well, it's that library that myself? Um, well, it's that library that myself? Um, well, it's that library that uses HTML to make 3D virtual worlds. So uses HTML to make 3D virtual worlds. So uses HTML to make 3D virtual worlds. So you you start with A-Frame, which lets you you start with A-Frame, which lets you you start with A-Frame, which lets you, you know, basically wander around you, you know, basically wander around you, you know, basically wander around this this this forest. Um, I thought it this this this forest. Um, I thought it this this this forest. Um, I thought it was interesting that most books like was interesting that most books like was interesting that most books like this are do things in 2D. Yeah. And you this are do things in 2D. Yeah. And you this are do things in 2D. Yeah. And you kind of unapologetically said, "Let's kind of unapologetically said, "Let's kind of unapologetically said, "Let's make it more interesting for the kids. make it more interesting for the kids. make it more interesting for the kids. Let's go 3D." Yeah. I think it's that um Let's go 3D." Yeah. I think it's that um Let's go 3D." Yeah. I think it's that um the little um video game hook, you know, the little um video game hook, you know, the little um video game hook, you know, you're you're creating a world. Let's you're you're creating a world. Let's you're you're creating a world. Let's create a really awesome world as awesome create a really awesome world as awesome create a really awesome world as awesome as we can. And now I looked at the book as we can. And now I looked at the book as we can. And now I looked at the book and I reminded myself Glitch which is and I reminded myself Glitch which is and I reminded myself Glitch which is where I did a lot of the projects where I did a lot of the projects where I did a lot of the projects because it's open. It's really easy to because it's open. It's really easy to because it's open. It's really easy to access. It has a nice A-frame access. It has a nice A-frame access. It has a nice A-frame integration kind of is kind of nicely integration kind of is kind of nicely integration kind of is kind of nicely hosted there. So I think that was one of hosted there. So I think that was one of hosted there. So I think that was one of the things that impacted my choice as the things that impacted my choice as the things that impacted my choice as well as the aesthetics. So I know you've well as the aesthetics. So I know you've well as the aesthetics. So I know you've been an advocate for the open web since been an advocate for the open web since been an advocate for the open web since since always and you worked at Glitch since always and you worked at Glitch since always and you worked at Glitch for a time and you worked at Microsoft for a time and you worked at Microsoft for a time and you worked at Microsoft for a time in all of these things. the for a time in all of these things. the for a time in all of these things. the the passion for the front end really the passion for the front end really the passion for the front end really came out. And um I I'm curious, do you came out. And um I I'm curious, do you came out. And um I I'm curious, do you do most of your work bespoke now or what do most of your work bespoke now or what do most of your work bespoke now or what do how do you find yourself creating as do how do you find yourself creating as do how do you find yourself creating as opposed to AI? Yeah. Um just a slight opposed to AI? Yeah. Um just a slight opposed to AI? Yeah. Um just a slight correction, I never worked at Glitch, correction, I never worked at Glitch, correction, I never worked at Glitch, but I do use it a lot. I actually use it but I do use it a lot. I actually use it but I do use it a lot. I actually use it for Boston University Metropol for Boston University Metropol for Boston University Metropol Metropolitan College. So, uh Oh, my Metropolitan College. So, uh Oh, my Metropolitan College. So, uh Oh, my apologies. I thought that you were apologies. I thought that you were apologies. I thought that you were there. No, thanks for your patience. Uh there. No, thanks for your patience. Uh there. No, thanks for your patience. Uh yeah, but yeah. Well, I'll tell you.

yeah, but yeah. Well, I'll tell you. yeah, but yeah. Well, I'll tell you. Um, I have a newsletter on AI and I like Um, I have a newsletter on AI and I like Um, I have a newsletter on AI and I like to try new things and put things through to try new things and put things through to try new things and put things through their paces. Um, I'm enjoying using their paces. Um, I'm enjoying using their paces. Um, I'm enjoying using Copilot, Copilot, Copilot, especially when I need to upgrade especially when I need to upgrade especially when I need to upgrade something that I've done in the past. I something that I've done in the past. I something that I've done in the past. I find it really helpful if I have to I find it really helpful if I have to I find it really helpful if I have to I had to take something from Vue 2 and had to take something from Vue 2 and had to take something from Vue 2 and upgrade it to Vue3. Boy, that was so upgrade it to Vue3. Boy, that was so upgrade it to Vue3. Boy, that was so helpful, so fast, so clean and nice. I helpful, so fast, so clean and nice. I helpful, so fast, so clean and nice. I really appreciated that kind of task. really appreciated that kind of task. really appreciated that kind of task. I've already built the thing, now I just I've already built the thing, now I just I've already built the thing, now I just have to update it and upgrade it. That's have to update it and upgrade it. That's have to update it and upgrade it. That's brilliant. I like brilliant. I like brilliant. I like co-pilots asking, you know, it kind of co-pilots asking, you know, it kind of co-pilots asking, you know, it kind of you ask it a question and then it gives you ask it a question and then it gives you ask it a question and then it gives you the the suggestions, but I've been you the the suggestions, but I've been you the the suggestions, but I've been experimenting with Clive, which is experimenting with Clive, which is experimenting with Clive, which is hooked up to whichever model you want, hooked up to whichever model you want, hooked up to whichever model you want, and it just it's completely an agent, and it just it's completely an agent, and it just it's completely an agent, you know? It just does automatically you know? It just does automatically you know? It just does automatically starts messing around in your codebase starts messing around in your codebase starts messing around in your codebase and changing things. It's terrifying. I and changing things. It's terrifying. I and changing things. It's terrifying. I really don't care for that so much. Um, really don't care for that so much. Um, really don't care for that so much. Um, you don't like letting go of the you don't like letting go of the you don't like letting go of the steering wheel. Oh, no. I don't I'm not steering wheel. Oh, no. I don't I'm not steering wheel. Oh, no. I don't I'm not comfortable. I'm not comfortable with comfortable. I'm not comfortable with comfortable. I'm not comfortable with that at all. Um I and and I I found that that at all. Um I and and I I found that that at all. Um I and and I I found that it it created some pretty sloppy code in it it created some pretty sloppy code in it it created some pretty sloppy code in a lot of places, a lot of um not very a lot of places, a lot of um not very a lot of places, a lot of um not very dry code.

dry code. dry code. I was however really impressed with bolt I was however really impressed with bolt I was however really impressed with bolt new which allows you to scaffold up a new which allows you to scaffold up a new which allows you to scaffold up a website. Now I've had a little website. Now I've had a little website. Now I've had a little experience with this with code sandbox experience with this with code sandbox experience with this with code sandbox as well. um kind of these very helpful as well. um kind of these very helpful as well. um kind of these very helpful online systems, but I thought Bolt did a online systems, but I thought Bolt did a online systems, but I thought Bolt did a nice clean job. And then it has that nice clean job. And then it has that nice clean job. And then it has that nice um attachment to Stack Overflow, nice um attachment to Stack Overflow, nice um attachment to Stack Overflow, sorry, Stack Blitz. And um that worked sorry, Stack Blitz. And um that worked sorry, Stack Blitz. And um that worked really well. So, it's sort of I'm just really well. So, it's sort of I'm just really well. So, it's sort of I'm just putting things through their paces, putting things through their paces, putting things through their paces, seeing how far I can get. And I was seeing how far I can get. And I was seeing how far I can get. And I was running out of credits and I'm too cheap running out of credits and I'm too cheap running out of credits and I'm too cheap to buy anything at all. So, just like to buy anything at all. So, just like to buy anything at all. So, just like and that's a challenge I have for and that's a challenge I have for and that's a challenge I have for someone. Try using these agents and try someone. Try using these agents and try someone. Try using these agents and try using heavy heavily using co-pilot and using heavy heavily using co-pilot and using heavy heavily using co-pilot and then run out of credits and see where then run out of credits and see where then run out of credits and see where your brain takes you. It's like that hor your brain takes you. It's like that hor your brain takes you. It's like that hor horrified feeling. Oh no. You know what? horrified feeling. Oh no. You know what? horrified feeling. Oh no. You know what? There was a there was a young person who There was a there was a young person who There was a there was a young person who had some challenges on uh on social had some challenges on uh on social had some challenges on uh on social media a couple of weeks ago where they media a couple of weeks ago where they media a couple of weeks ago where they were building a startup in uh entirely were building a startup in uh entirely were building a startup in uh entirely with Vibe coding and uh they never with Vibe coding and uh they never with Vibe coding and uh they never learned source control and unfortunately learned source control and unfortunately learned source control and unfortunately they lost all of their material and they they lost all of their material and they they lost all of their material and they were like I'll just generate it again.

were like I'll just generate it again. were like I'll just generate it again. But ultimately I like the idea of a But ultimately I like the idea of a But ultimately I like the idea of a co-pilot as a junior engineer who's co-pilot as a junior engineer who's co-pilot as a junior engineer who's there to help me out with the boring there to help me out with the boring there to help me out with the boring stuff. Yeah. You know, do the tedium, do stuff. Yeah. You know, do the tedium, do stuff. Yeah. You know, do the tedium, do the toil. Definitely. But I want the the toil. Definitely. But I want the the toil. Definitely. But I want the creativity and the fun stuff to be to be creativity and the fun stuff to be to be creativity and the fun stuff to be to be bespoke. Yes. Yes. Firebased bespoke. Yes. Yes. Firebased bespoke. Yes. Yes. Firebased integrations. It It mangled my code integrations. It It mangled my code integrations. It It mangled my code pretty good, but I finally got it pretty good, but I finally got it pretty good, but I finally got it whipped into whipped into whipped into shape. It's like, yeah. Well, computer shape. It's like, yeah. Well, computer shape. It's like, yeah. Well, computer science for kids, a storytelling science for kids, a storytelling science for kids, a storytelling approach, is available from WY. You can approach, is available from WY. You can approach, is available from WY. You can find it anywhere that you get books. I find it anywhere that you get books. I find it anywhere that you get books. I picked mine up at Amazon. Certainly, you picked mine up at Amazon. Certainly, you picked mine up at Amazon. Certainly, you can also get it as an ebook. I like the can also get it as an ebook. I like the can also get it as an ebook. I like the physical one because it's got whole physical one because it's got whole physical one because it's got whole pages in color. It's very well put pages in color. It's very well put pages in color. It's very well put together and uh you should really be together and uh you should really be together and uh you should really be proud of this. Uh Jen Looper, thanks so proud of this. Uh Jen Looper, thanks so proud of this. Uh Jen Looper, thanks so much for for sharing it with us. Thank much for for sharing it with us. Thank much for for sharing it with us. Thank you. Thanks for talking about it. It's you. Thanks for talking about it. It's you. Thanks for talking about it. It's it's I would say it's my masterpiece. it's I would say it's my masterpiece. it's I would say it's my masterpiece. I've done a lot of curriculum, done a I've done a lot of curriculum, done a I've done a lot of curriculum, done a lot of writing, but this one this was lot of writing, but this one this was lot of writing, but this one this was the the one that really made me happy. the the one that really made me happy. the the one that really made me happy. And I have to say um because we talk a And I have to say um because we talk a And I have to say um because we talk a lot about AI art, but the illustrations lot about AI art, but the illustrations lot about AI art, but the illustrations were done by um Miraa, who's a student were done by um Miraa, who's a student were done by um Miraa, who's a student in Venezuela, and I've um asked her to in Venezuela, and I've um asked her to in Venezuela, and I've um asked her to do my illustrations for ages. So, she's do my illustrations for ages. So, she's do my illustrations for ages. So, she's did brilliant work. I love that. Support did brilliant work. I love that. Support did brilliant work. I love that. Support artists, support local artists, find artists, support local artists, find artists, support local artists, find actual humans to do your art, and you actual humans to do your art, and you actual humans to do your art, and you did just that with the uh with the art did just that with the uh with the art did just that with the uh with the art in this book. Very cool. Yeah, you can in this book. Very cool. Yeah, you can in this book. Very cool. Yeah, you can check out Jen Looper at jenlooper.com.

check out Jen Looper at jenlooper.com. check out Jen Looper at jenlooper.com. This has been another episode of Hansel This has been another episode of Hansel This has been another episode of Hansel Minutes, and we'll see you again next Minutes, and we'll see you again next Minutes, and we'll see you again next week. week. week. [Music]