EPISODE 11 - Scott & Mark Learn To... Systems Thinking

[Music] [Music] I did the I did a talk after your talk I did the I did a talk after your talk I did the I did a talk after your talk uh long after everyone left uh at our uh long after everyone left uh at our uh long after everyone left uh at our little internal event yesterday uh did little internal event yesterday uh did little internal event yesterday uh did your talk go well you watched it didn't your talk go well you watched it didn't your talk go well you watched it didn't you no I was asleep wait you no I was asleep wait you no I was asleep wait I you you were talking before my I you you were talking before my I you you were talking before my talk uh actually my talk was just 10 talk uh actually my talk was just 10 talk uh actually my talk was just 10 minutes in Scott's talk yeah yeah yeah minutes in Scott's talk yeah yeah yeah minutes in Scott's talk yeah yeah yeah so I I I had to back clean up yeah so so I I I had to back clean up yeah so so I I I had to back clean up yeah so they they they they put me at the end to they they they they put me at the end to they they they they put me at the end to try to get people to stay and you know try to get people to stay and you know try to get people to stay and you know so I to an empty room but um was it so I to an empty room but um was it so I to an empty room but um was it really empty no it was cool everyone was really empty no it was cool everyone was really empty no it was cool everyone was there was such good energy it was a there was such good energy it was a there was such good energy it was a really fun event people were vibing really fun event people were vibing really fun event people were vibing that's my favorite event you know what that's my favorite event you know what that's my favorite event you know what used to be tuch ready but yeah it was used to be tuch ready but yeah it was used to be tuch ready but yeah it was really cool so this for context friends really cool so this for context friends really cool so this for context friends uh there's an you know big companies uh there's an you know big companies uh there's an you know big companies have internal conferences like if you have internal conferences like if you have internal conferences like if you work at Walmart there might be 5,000 work at Walmart there might be 5,000 work at Walmart there might be 5,000 engineers at Walmart and there's a whole engineers at Walmart and there's a whole engineers at Walmart and there's a whole Walmart conference it's happening you Walmart conference it's happening you Walmart conference it's happening you don't know about it's as big as any Tech don't know about it's as big as any Tech don't know about it's as big as any Tech conference you've ever been to so conference you've ever been to so conference you've ever been to so Microsoft has internal conferences and Microsoft has internal conferences and Microsoft has internal conferences and we got to speak at one it used to be we got to speak at one it used to be we got to speak at one it used to be called Tech ready it's kind of our called Tech ready it's kind of our called Tech ready it's kind of our internal Microsoft build internal Microsoft build internal Microsoft build and um uh I you know I talked about how and um uh I you know I talked about how and um uh I you know I talked about how we should be thinking about AI in the we should be thinking about AI in the we should be thinking about AI in the larger [Music] [Music] system let's do system system let's do system system let's do system thinking but here's my thing on system thinking but here's my thing on system thinking but here's my thing on system thinking Scott I don't even know what thinking Scott I don't even know what thinking Scott I don't even know what that that is let's have that that that is let's have that that that is let's have that conversation because I think you do and

conversation because I think you do and conversation because I think you do and and we're already recording so now we've and we're already recording so now we've and we're already recording so now we've already started the show yeah all right already started the show yeah all right already started the show yeah all right so Mark I did an episode uh years ago so Mark I did an episode uh years ago so Mark I did an episode uh years ago it's to this day it's like my most it's to this day it's like my most it's to this day it's like my most popular Hansel minutes episode uh and I popular Hansel minutes episode uh and I popular Hansel minutes episode uh and I had a systems architect uh who owns a had a systems architect uh who owns a had a systems architect uh who owns a company she's she's quite well known in company she's she's quite well known in company she's she's quite well known in the in the DMV uh her name is kha Rogers the in the DMV uh her name is kha Rogers the in the DMV uh her name is kha Rogers she's had a number of startups she's she's had a number of startups she's she's had a number of startups she's known in DMV the department of vehicles known in DMV the department of vehicles known in DMV the department of vehicles in the DC Maryland Virginia area oh okay in the DC Maryland Virginia area oh okay in the DC Maryland Virginia area oh okay sorry like you know government like that sorry like you know government like that sorry like you know government like that area East Coast anyway yeah kha khaw has area East Coast anyway yeah kha khaw has area East Coast anyway yeah kha khaw has a um has a company uh she's done a a um has a company uh she's done a a um has a company uh she's done a number of startups but anyway she's been number of startups but anyway she's been number of startups but anyway she's been in business for 30 years like us and in business for 30 years like us and in business for 30 years like us and this was during the peak time of the this was during the peak time of the this was during the peak time of the learn to code movement and everyone was learn to code movement and everyone was learn to code movement and everyone was like kids could learn to code so we were like kids could learn to code so we were like kids could learn to code so we were all running around teaching kids how to all running around teaching kids how to all running around teaching kids how to do for loops and she says that we're do for loops and she says that we're do for loops and she says that we're spending too much time teaching kids to spending too much time teaching kids to spending too much time teaching kids to code and not teaching them about the code and not teaching them about the code and not teaching them about the system in which a some code might exist system in which a some code might exist system in which a some code might exist and we expanded that idea Beyond just and we expanded that idea Beyond just and we expanded that idea Beyond just like writing a for Loop and running it like writing a for Loop and running it like writing a for Loop and running it you know like full stack like learn you know like full stack like learn you know like full stack like learn about the silicon and to how do we about the silicon and to how do we about the silicon and to how do we operate as humans within a system why is operate as humans within a system why is operate as humans within a system why is the system set up that way so for the system set up that way so for the system set up that way so for example if somebody today a young person example if somebody today a young person example if somebody today a young person goes to Amazon buys some piece of you goes to Amazon buys some piece of you goes to Amazon buys some piece of you know plastic Chinese crap it appears at know plastic Chinese crap it appears at know plastic Chinese crap it appears at the door the next day her argument is the door the next day her argument is the door the next day her argument is that no one thinks about the system that no one thinks about the system that no one thinks about the system within which created that the the oil within which created that the the oil within which created that the the oil that that was you know came from that that was you know came from that that was you know came from dinosaur bones that went into the dinosaur bones that went into the dinosaur bones that went into the freighter that came across from China

freighter that came across from China freighter that came across from China the people who worked there the the people who worked there the the people who worked there the macroeconomics of it like systems are macroeconomics of it like systems are macroeconomics of it like systems are big and complex and we are abstracting big and complex and we are abstracting big and complex and we are abstracting away so away so away so much she thinks that's a problem and much she thinks that's a problem and much she thinks that's a problem and people need to learn systems rather than people need to learn systems rather than people need to learn systems rather than grinding leite code so that's the the grinding leite code so that's the the grinding leite code so that's the the controversial topic of the day well I controversial topic of the day well I controversial topic of the day well I don't okay I mean I I don't I don't know don't okay I mean I I don't I don't know don't okay I mean I I don't I don't know if it's controversial I mean if you take if it's controversial I mean if you take if it's controversial I mean if you take a look at how AI is doing so much coding a look at how AI is doing so much coding a look at how AI is doing so much coding like the value is systems thinking on like the value is systems thinking on like the value is systems thinking on top of it so you do agree this is great top of it so you do agree this is great top of it so you do agree this is great so I do agree I just wasn't sure like so I do agree I just wasn't sure like so I do agree I just wasn't sure like okay I mean I think like what's this okay I mean I think like what's this okay I mean I think like what's this dumb topic H dumb topic H dumb topic H exactly what do you at this time yeah exactly what do you at this time yeah exactly what do you at this time yeah episode though no I I mean system episode though no I I mean system episode though no I I mean system Sinking by itself just interpreted as Sinking by itself just interpreted as Sinking by itself just interpreted as words I could understand means architect words I could understand means architect words I could understand means architect I think of it as like architectural I think of it as like architectural I think of it as like architectural thinking as well thinking as well thinking as well I was going to tease you because I was I was going to tease you because I was I was going to tease you because I was like Mark you have to think about the like Mark you have to think about the like Mark you have to think about the system in which the word system thinking system in which the word system thinking system in which the word system thinking exists sorry exists sorry exists sorry okay but yeah yeah like okay okay but yeah yeah like okay okay but yeah yeah like okay architectural systems but larger human architectural systems but larger human architectural systems but larger human systems just like interpersonal systems just like interpersonal systems just like interpersonal relationships is a system but people relationships is a system but people relationships is a system but people keep showing up to work at Microsoft and keep showing up to work at Microsoft and keep showing up to work at Microsoft and big Tech and they know how to grind out big Tech and they know how to grind out big Tech and they know how to grind out algorithms on lead code algorithms on lead code algorithms on lead code yeah do you do a lot of lead code yeah do you do a lot of lead code yeah do you do a lot of lead code yourself Mark I lead code that's the yourself Mark I lead code that's the yourself Mark I lead code that's the only thing I do is leak code when I code only thing I do is leak code when I code only thing I do is leak code when I code it's leak code whatever that is I think it's leak code whatever that is I think it's leak code whatever that is I think I think because I think because I be I

I think because I think because I be I I think because I think because I be I am the definition of Le code exactly so am the definition of Le code exactly so am the definition of Le code exactly so right you're like it was think all those right you're like it was think all those right you're like it was think all those Chuck Norris jokes of like back in the Chuck Norris jokes of like back in the Chuck Norris jokes of like back in the day yeah when Mark codes it is lead code day yeah when Mark codes it is lead code day yeah when Mark codes it is lead code by definition because he's coding by definition because he's coding by definition because he's coding exactly do you do you find a difference exactly do you do you find a difference exactly do you do you find a difference in the way you're interacting with like in the way you're interacting with like in the way you're interacting with like is it a generational thing is it where is it a generational thing is it where is it a generational thing is it where people went to school is it how they people went to school is it how they people went to school is it how they approach problems like some people just approach problems like some people just approach problems like some people just pick up that idea of like oh yeah I see pick up that idea of like oh yeah I see pick up that idea of like oh yeah I see how this fits in I see how the system how this fits in I see how the system how this fits in I see how the system puts together while other people are puts together while other people are puts together while other people are blinders on these are the 10 lines of blinders on these are the 10 lines of blinders on these are the 10 lines of code that they can see I don't think code that they can see I don't think code that they can see I don't think it's a you know we talked about this um it's a you know we talked about this um it's a you know we talked about this um earlier in one one of our early episodes earlier in one one of our early episodes earlier in one one of our early episodes when we were talking about when we were talking about when we were talking about architecture oh and and um focusing on architecture oh and and um focusing on architecture oh and and um focusing on going deeper you know broader than going deeper you know broader than going deeper you know broader than you're just ler kind um I don't think you're just ler kind um I don't think you're just ler kind um I don't think it's gener it's gener it's gener I don't see I at least it hasn't been I don't see I at least it hasn't been I don't see I at least it hasn't been visible to me there might be something visible to me there might be something visible to me there might be something generational but I think it's just the generational but I think it's just the generational but I think it's just the way that humans sort themselves and it might be based off of themselves and it might be based off of what their personal preferences it also what their personal preferences it also what their personal preferences it also might you know I just like to you know might you know I just like to you know might you know I just like to you know come to work and have somebody tell me come to work and have somebody tell me come to work and have somebody tell me go do the XYZ and I'll just do XYZ and I go do the XYZ and I'll just do XYZ and I go do the XYZ and I'll just do XYZ and I do a good job of XYZ and that makes me do a good job of XYZ and that makes me do a good job of XYZ and that makes me happy and I feel productive and there's happy and I feel productive and there's happy and I feel productive and there's people that going like XYZ why am I people that going like XYZ why am I people that going like XYZ why am I doing XYZ yeah uh how does it fit should doing XYZ yeah uh how does it fit should doing XYZ yeah uh how does it fit should I be doing XYZ and you know what's the I be doing XYZ and you know what's the I be doing XYZ and you know what's the point of XYZ and so there's people like

point of XYZ and so there's people like point of XYZ and so there's people like that I thought I started doing better at that I thought I started doing better at that I thought I started doing better at Microsoft when I started thinking about Microsoft when I started thinking about Microsoft when I started thinking about where I fit into the system where I where I fit into the system where I where I fit into the system where I started thinking about where what are my started thinking about where what are my started thinking about where what are my boss's goals what is like why are we boss's goals what is like why are we boss's goals what is like why are we writing this software type thing before writing this software type thing before writing this software type thing before I might just write a component and then I might just write a component and then I might just write a component and then okay here's the component then when I okay here's the component then when I okay here's the component then when I thought about the larg you're that like thought about the larg you're that like thought about the larg you're that like why am I doing XYZ person yeah I think why am I doing XYZ person yeah I think why am I doing XYZ person yeah I think almost to a fault yeah I almost do it almost to a fault yeah I almost do it almost to a fault yeah I almost do it too much like I get I don't want to do too much like I get I don't want to do too much like I get I don't want to do XYZ I'm not doing it well one of the XYZ I'm not doing it well one of the XYZ I'm not doing it well one of the things that I really admire about you things that I really admire about you things that I really admire about you and about you know yanan who helps us and about you know yanan who helps us and about you know yanan who helps us with writing some code is the like with writing some code is the like with writing some code is the like there's a little bit of analysis and there's a little bit of analysis and there's a little bit of analysis and then there's coding and then you pause then there's coding and then you pause then there's coding and then you pause and there's an analysis there's not a and there's an analysis there's not a and there's an analysis there's not a big upfront analysis and I've never seen big upfront analysis and I've never seen big upfront analysis and I've never seen you get analysis paralysis because you get analysis paralysis because you get analysis paralysis because there's 10 25 ways to do something yeah there's 10 25 ways to do something yeah there's 10 25 ways to do something yeah but you guys just pick one and you run but you guys just pick one and you run but you guys just pick one and you run in that direction while I go there's in that direction while I go there's in that direction while I go there's nine ways to do this and then I get nine ways to do this and then I get nine ways to do this and then I get stuck yeah I wanted to I want to act stuck yeah I wanted to I want to act stuck yeah I wanted to I want to act more boldly but my systems thinking goes more boldly but my systems thinking goes more boldly but my systems thinking goes like too deep and I get stuck yeah like too deep and I get stuck yeah like too deep and I get stuck yeah interesting I I interesting I I interesting I I hadn't really thought about how I hadn't really thought about how I hadn't really thought about how I approach problems or tasks um that way approach problems or tasks um that way approach problems or tasks um that way but I think you're right and I'm but I think you're right and I'm but I think you're right and I'm connecting it with the fact that connecting it with the fact that connecting it with the fact that I'm that I just want to get it I'm that I just want to get it I'm that I just want to get it done as and I want to get it done in done as and I want to get it done in done as and I want to get it done in whatever the fastest way as possible but whatever the fastest way as possible but whatever the fastest way as possible but make sure that it's right done right as make sure that it's right done right as make sure that it's right done right as at the same time so yeah like going into at the same time so yeah like going into at the same time so yeah like going into something without thinking about it at something without thinking about it at something without thinking about it at least a

least a least a little you're likely to just waste your little you're likely to just waste your little you're likely to just waste your time right because you're going to do time right because you're going to do time right because you're going to do something and at the end go wait a something and at the end go wait a something and at the end go wait a minute oh I forgot to consider these minute oh I forgot to consider these minute oh I forgot to consider these things and what I just did I have to things and what I just did I have to things and what I just did I have to throw away and start over um but at the throw away and start over um but at the throw away and start over um but at the same time if you're thinking about it if same time if you're thinking about it if same time if you're thinking about it if you're trying to think about everything you're trying to think about everything you're trying to think about everything then like you said you're just stuck and then like you said you're just stuck and then like you said you're just stuck and never never do it I'll give you an never never do it I'll give you an never never do it I'll give you an example of a stupid thing that I did example of a stupid thing that I did example of a stupid thing that I did last week that probably took longer than last week that probably took longer than last week that probably took longer than it needed to but it might be an it needed to but it might be an it needed to but it might be an interesting way to kick part of this interesting way to kick part of this interesting way to kick part of this conversation off so my my 17-year-old is conversation off so my my 17-year-old is conversation off so my my 17-year-old is trying to build up some mystery for some trying to build up some mystery for some trying to build up some mystery for some pep rally thing at work at at work see pep rally thing at work at at work see pep rally thing at work at at work see look at my brain at school and um he look at my brain at school and um he look at my brain at school and um he made he says I want a website where made he says I want a website where made he says I want a website where people go in and it's got like Matrix people go in and it's got like Matrix people go in and it's got like Matrix letters and it's mysterious and it's letters and it's mysterious and it's letters and it's mysterious and it's like computery like Mr Rob about and like computery like Mr Rob about and like computery like Mr Rob about and there's like a mysterious countdown and there's like a mysterious countdown and there's like a mysterious countdown and he's like everyone in the school will he's like everyone in the school will he's like everyone in the school will see the mysterious countdown and be see the mysterious countdown and be see the mysterious countdown and be excited about it it'll it'll like run excited about it it'll it'll like run excited about it it'll it'll like run around and then when the countdown goes around and then when the countdown goes around and then when the countdown goes to zero it'll switch and it'll have like to zero it'll switch and it'll have like to zero it'll switch and it'll have like seven text boxes like Wordle and they seven text boxes like Wordle and they seven text boxes like Wordle and they have to enter in a code and then if the have to enter in a code and then if the have to enter in a code and then if the code is wrong it'll shake and then if code is wrong it'll shake and then if code is wrong it'll shake and then if it's not wrong it'll go to a page and it's not wrong it'll go to a page and it's not wrong it'll go to a page and then they show that page to the then they show that page to the then they show that page to the principal and they get a prize or principal and they get a prize or principal and they get a prize or something like that I'm like okay that's something like that I'm like okay that's something like that I'm like okay that's a cool like dadon project we can work on a cool like dadon project we can work on a cool like dadon project we can work on and then I join the JavaScript ecosystem and then I join the JavaScript ecosystem and then I join the JavaScript ecosystem and it's like you know you can use mpm and it's like you know you can use mpm and it's like you know you can use mpm run Dev and zit and in versell zero and run Dev and zit and in versell zero and run Dev and zit and in versell zero and just like and I'm like there's 50 just like and I'm like there's 50 just like and I'm like there's 50 freaking ways to do this I'm like is freaking ways to do this I'm like is freaking ways to do this I'm like is that problem that he described a problem

that problem that he described a problem that problem that he described a problem that is going to require any node that is going to require any node that is going to require any node modules at all or should it yeah so I modules at all or should it yeah so I modules at all or should it yeah so I just ended up doing it in straight just ended up doing it in straight just ended up doing it in straight JavaScript JavaScript JavaScript index.html all inline JavaScript that's index.html all inline JavaScript that's index.html all inline JavaScript that's not even a script.js and uh some some not even a script.js and uh some some not even a script.js and uh some some CSS but I'm like racked with system CSS but I'm like racked with system CSS but I'm like racked with system thinking brain like is that how the thinking brain like is that how the thinking brain like is that how the people are doing it today yeah uh I people are doing it today yeah uh I people are doing it today yeah uh I can I just thinking about my own can I just thinking about my own can I just thinking about my own experiences when given a task um and experiences when given a task um and experiences when given a task um and I'll take system internals tools because I'll take system internals tools because I'll take system internals tools because a lot of people are familiar with them a lot of people are familiar with them a lot of people are familiar with them and we've talked about Zoom it and um and we've talked about Zoom it and um and we've talked about Zoom it and um how I approach making a new tool or how I approach making a new tool or how I approach making a new tool or adding a feature to an existing adding a feature to an existing adding a feature to an existing tool I I just think in Broad Strokes tool I I just think in Broad Strokes tool I I just think in Broad Strokes here's I need like adding recording this here's I need like adding recording this here's I need like adding recording this to zoom it or adding something that we to zoom it or adding something that we to zoom it or adding something that we did together Zoom it like being able to did together Zoom it like being able to did together Zoom it like being able to type left instead of type left instead of type left instead of right um I I just think about the the right um I I just think about the the right um I I just think about the the rough structure of what might work and rough structure of what might work and rough structure of what might work and then I just start and sometimes that then I just start and sometimes that then I just start and sometimes that structure as I'm like oh wait a minute I structure as I'm like oh wait a minute I structure as I'm like oh wait a minute I needed this other function that does needed this other function that does needed this other function that does this oh this doesn't integrate nicely this oh this doesn't integrate nicely this oh this doesn't integrate nicely with the existing way that the codes with the existing way that the codes with the existing way that the codes architected I need to change architected I need to change architected I need to change it um but it it's always an iterative i it um but it it's always an iterative i it um but it it's always an iterative i I think of um coating as somewhat like I think of um coating as somewhat like I think of um coating as somewhat like sculpting because you start with this sculpting because you start with this sculpting because you start with this kind of kind of kind of big uh the overall shape of what you're big uh the overall shape of what you're big uh the overall shape of what you're going for but then as you get into it going for but then as you get into it going for but then as you get into it you're like oh wait a minute I need to

you're like oh wait a minute I need to you're like oh wait a minute I need to CH chisel a little more here a chisel CH chisel a little more here a chisel CH chisel a little more here a chisel there and and what emerges is the there and and what emerges is the there and and what emerges is the sculpture that you're looking for but sculpture that you're looking for but sculpture that you're looking for but it's hard to predict ahead of time it's hard to predict ahead of time it's hard to predict ahead of time exactly where all the Chisel hits are exactly where all the Chisel hits are exactly where all the Chisel hits are going to go yeah and I also think that a going to go yeah and I also think that a going to go yeah and I also think that a lot of people come into what they call lot of people come into what they call lot of people come into what they call Brownfield projects right not Greenfield Brownfield projects right not Greenfield Brownfield projects right not Greenfield where it's like I just went and made my where it's like I just went and made my where it's like I just went and made my new index.html but Brownfield was like new index.html but Brownfield was like new index.html but Brownfield was like I've just showed up at a company that's I've just showed up at a company that's I've just showed up at a company that's got 10 20 years of of of of technical got 10 20 years of of of of technical got 10 20 years of of of of technical baggage like even if you were hired baggage like even if you were hired baggage like even if you were hired today to work on Windows well actually today to work on Windows well actually today to work on Windows well actually CIS internals is technical baggage CIS internals is technical baggage CIS internals is technical baggage actually that's a good point how it's actually that's a good point how it's actually that's a good point how it's been 25 years right it'll be 30 years been 25 years right it'll be 30 years been 25 years right it'll be 30 years next yeah so if you show up and you're next yeah so if you show up and you're next yeah so if you show up and you're the person that's got to add a feature the person that's got to add a feature the person that's got to add a feature to zoom it arguably you should sculpt it to zoom it arguably you should sculpt it to zoom it arguably you should sculpt it in the style of the previous sculptor so in the style of the previous sculptor so in the style of the previous sculptor so that you don't mess it up that you don't mess it up that you don't mess it up yeah and seeing that is also a thing yeah and seeing that is also a thing yeah and seeing that is also a thing like entering the code base and going like entering the code base and going like entering the code base and going okay I I empathize for this person yeah okay I I empathize for this person yeah okay I I empathize for this person yeah the philosophy what they were thinking the philosophy what they were thinking the philosophy what they were thinking the structure the the structure the the structure the organization um and not just try bolting organization um and not just try bolting organization um and not just try bolting things on in the way that you would like things on in the way that you would like things on in the way that you would like um because then that makes the whole um because then that makes the whole um because then that makes the whole thing unstable and hard to understand thing unstable and hard to understand thing unstable and hard to understand but but are we entering a time where the but but are we entering a time where the but but are we entering a time where the systems are too big to to understand cuz systems are too big to to understand cuz systems are too big to to understand cuz I'm always advoca sure okay so you just I'm always advoca sure okay so you just I'm always advoca sure okay so you just give up like when do you stop uh you I give up like when do you stop uh you I give up like when do you stop uh you I mean you try to understand as much as mean you try to understand as much as mean you try to understand as much as you think you need to you think you need to you think you need to understand I think that's a trick too understand I think that's a trick too understand I think that's a trick too like knowing where enough is

like knowing where enough is like knowing where enough is enough um and that this applies to enough um and that this applies to enough um and that this applies to everything actually not just coding but everything actually not just coding but everything actually not just coding but anything that you're dealing with when I anything that you're dealing with when I anything that you're dealing with when I get docs when I get presentations when get docs when I get presentations when get docs when I get presentations when I'm at I spend a lot of my time in I'm at I spend a lot of my time in I'm at I spend a lot of my time in meetings as the senior exact that is meetings as the senior exact that is meetings as the senior exact that is reviewing things and making calls on reviewing things and making calls on reviewing things and making calls on things and there's you know we've talked things and there's you know we've talked things and there's you know we've talked about this before I'm not the expert on about this before I'm not the expert on about this before I'm not the expert on everything um there's people in most everything um there's people in most everything um there's people in most things I am not things I am not things I am not everything but there's people always everything but there's people always everything but there's people always there that know that are presenting and there that know that are presenting and there that know that are presenting and they know it and I I don't know it they know it and I I don't know it they know it and I I don't know it there's no way like if I wanted to say I there's no way like if I wanted to say I there's no way like if I wanted to say I want to know this as deeply as you do want to know this as deeply as you do want to know this as deeply as you do like that's a full-time like that's a full-time like that's a full-time job so I can't so the question is how job so I can't so the question is how job so I can't so the question is how much do I need to know to make a much do I need to know to make a much do I need to know to make a decision or have an opinion oh that that decision or have an opinion oh that that decision or have an opinion oh that that system thinking right there like how system thinking right there like how system thinking right there like how does this thing that you subject matter does this thing that you subject matter does this thing that you subject matter expert who I trust affect the larger expert who I trust affect the larger expert who I trust affect the larger system for which the subject matter system for which the subject matter system for which the subject matter expert may not have the larger context expert may not have the larger context expert may not have the larger context exactly and I so I'm sure that you do exactly and I so I'm sure that you do exactly and I so I'm sure that you do this is um information will be presented this is um information will be presented this is um information will be presented to you and you kind of fill in a picture to you and you kind of fill in a picture to you and you kind of fill in a picture and you look for based on your and you look for based on your and you look for based on your experience what are where are the risk experience what are where are the risk experience what are where are the risk areas or where are the areas of areas or where are the areas of areas or where are the areas of concerned concerned concerned um that might factor into a bigger um that might factor into a bigger um that might factor into a bigger system's view of what we should do or system's view of what we should do or system's view of what we should do or not do and then you and then if there's not do and then you and then if there's not do and then you and then if there's gaps in the information then you start gaps in the information then you start gaps in the information then you start to ask questions right and the the

to ask questions right and the the to ask questions right and the the larger these systems get the more the larger these systems get the more the larger these systems get the more the things that I'm thinking about as the things that I'm thinking about as the things that I'm thinking about as the systems thinker in the room is uh is systems thinker in the room is uh is systems thinker in the room is uh is there going to be a ripple as we throw there going to be a ripple as we throw there going to be a ripple as we throw the pebble into the pool that's going to the pebble into the pool that's going to the pebble into the pool that's going to cause us a problem and and an untenable cause us a problem and and an untenable cause us a problem and and an untenable untra intractable problem at some point untra intractable problem at some point untra intractable problem at some point down the road yeah like I'm assuming down the road yeah like I'm assuming down the road yeah like I'm assuming you're not like changing stuff in Azure you're not like changing stuff in Azure you're not like changing stuff in Azure that could destabilize the that could destabilize the that could destabilize the system and cause problems like the goal system and cause problems like the goal system and cause problems like the goal is to always make it more stable more uh is to always make it more stable more uh is to always make it more stable more uh more reliable yep and that's for sure uh more reliable yep and that's for sure uh more reliable yep and that's for sure uh a consideration when you're talking a consideration when you're talking a consideration when you're talking about rearching parts of azure that about rearching parts of azure that about rearching parts of azure that we're doing is how does this new part we're doing is how does this new part we're doing is how does this new part merge with the old part you know it's merge with the old part you know it's merge with the old part you know it's the standard changing the plane while the standard changing the plane while the standard changing the plane while you're flying it problem that you got you're flying it problem that you got you're flying it problem that you got with a system like with a system like with a system like this how do you communicate the size of this how do you communicate the size of this how do you communicate the size of a system is it documentation or is are a system is it documentation or is are a system is it documentation or is are you still doing uml or I mean like you still doing uml or I mean like you still doing uml or I mean like nobody's open VI in a while no and nobody's open VI in a while no and nobody's open VI in a while no and actually um I was talking to Scott actually um I was talking to Scott actually um I was talking to Scott Guthrie yesterday and he's like yeah I Guthrie yesterday and he's like yeah I Guthrie yesterday and he's like yeah I saw him you too he goes uh somebody saw him you too he goes uh somebody saw him you too he goes uh somebody asked me um who has Azure in their asked me um who has Azure in their asked me um who has Azure in their head and who's still at the company no head and who's still at the company no head and who's still at the company no nobody's yeah nobody too big even even nobody's yeah nobody too big even even nobody's yeah nobody too big even even people that were weren't here they might people that were weren't here they might people that were weren't here they might have had Azure in their head at the very have had Azure in their head at the very have had Azure in their head at the very beginning and I knew a lot more about beginning and I knew a lot more about beginning and I knew a lot more about Azure 20 10 years ago or 15 oh yeah we Azure 20 10 years ago or 15 oh yeah we Azure 20 10 years ago or 15 oh yeah we did our history show like when it was did our history show like when it was did our history show like when it was like red dog and it was like stateless like red dog and it was like stateless like red dog and it was like stateless VMS yeah maybe then I knew a I knew the VMS yeah maybe then I knew a I knew the VMS yeah maybe then I knew a I knew the level of depth I had was of and coverage

level of depth I had was of and coverage level of depth I had was of and coverage I had of I had of I had of azure was azure was azure was much much higher percentage than it is much much higher percentage than it is much much higher percentage than it is now just because it's gotten so massive now just because it's gotten so massive now just because it's gotten so massive and so sprawling there's so many and so sprawling there's so many and so sprawling there's so many services and internal and external that services and internal and external that services and internal and external that I can't and there's nobody at the I can't and there's nobody at the I can't and there's nobody at the company that knows Azure in their head company that knows Azure in their head company that knows Azure in their head like I this is one of those things about like I this is one of those things about like I this is one of those things about systems thinking like I've got I think systems thinking like I've got I think systems thinking like I've got I think the knowledge of the abstractions the knowledge of the abstractions the knowledge of the abstractions necessary for me to be effective where necessary for me to be effective where necessary for me to be effective where do we fit into it as humans ethical uh do we fit into it as humans ethical uh do we fit into it as humans ethical uh philosophical like we had some really philosophical like we had some really philosophical like we had some really interesting conversations about what it interesting conversations about what it interesting conversations about what it means to be applying AI into uh into means to be applying AI into uh into means to be applying AI into uh into Tech right now and I keep coming back to Tech right now and I keep coming back to Tech right now and I keep coming back to the the tension with the young people the the tension with the young people the the tension with the young people learning leite code like where where learning leite code like where where learning leite code like where where did little technical puzzles become more did little technical puzzles become more did little technical puzzles become more interesting to me than the business the interesting to me than the business the interesting to me than the business the larger business problem haven't they larger business problem haven't they larger business problem haven't they always been I mean Microsoft's famous always been I mean Microsoft's famous always been I mean Microsoft's famous for the interview question reverse the for the interview question reverse the for the interview question reverse the link list micros was that one question link list micros was that one question link list micros was that one question about like why are manhole covers that's about like why are manhole covers that's about like why are manhole covers that's the other one we we have done that the other one we we have done that the other one we we have done that forever forever forever yeah why why do we do that is that just yeah why why do we do that is that just yeah why why do we do that is that just a human thing a human thing a human thing I don't I think that we don't know have I don't I think that we don't know have I don't I think that we don't know have a a lot of people don't know a good way a a lot of people don't know a good way a a lot of people don't know a good way of measuring somebody's skill or of measuring somebody's skill or of measuring somebody's skill or capabilities so it's just like let's capabilities so it's just like let's capabilities so it's just like let's fall back on the on the easy thing like fall back on the on the easy thing like fall back on the on the easy thing like if they can't reverse the link list that if they can't reverse the link list that if they can't reverse the link list that must mean something about their skills

must mean something about their skills must mean something about their skills or or or capabilities and fact I you know that capabilities and fact I you know that capabilities and fact I you know that that kind of program in front of me yeah that kind of program in front of me yeah that kind of program in front of me yeah um I never like that I had to do that by um I never like that I had to do that by um I never like that I had to do that by the way new Mega Technologies I you had the way new Mega Technologies I you had the way new Mega Technologies I you had to you were required so they yeah it was to you were required so they yeah it was to you were required so they yeah it was part of their interview so I went to part of their interview so I went to part of their interview so I went to newga Technologies newga Technologies newga Technologies 1996 or 1996 or 1996 or five um to work um I'm potentially uh five um to work um I'm potentially uh five um to work um I'm potentially uh soft ice the colonel debugger soft I and soft ice the colonel debugger soft I and soft ice the colonel debugger soft I and um sof mentioned so because that's um sof mentioned so because that's um sof mentioned so because that's low-level assembly code so the the low-level assembly code so the the low-level assembly code so the the problem was write this function or write problem was write this function or write problem was write this function or write this progam short Small Program to do this progam short Small Program to do this progam short Small Program to do something and I can't remember what it something and I can't remember what it something and I can't remember what it was in assembly was in assembly was in assembly and we're going to sit and watch you do and we're going to sit and watch you do and we're going to sit and watch you do it so oh God that's the worst that is it so oh God that's the worst that is it so oh God that's the worst that is the worst yeah so uh that was it was fun the worst yeah so uh that was it was fun the worst yeah so uh that was it was fun I I mean I did it and and crushed it I I I mean I did it and and crushed it I I I mean I did it and and crushed it I leap coded it but um but it was that I leap coded it but um but it was that I leap coded it but um but it was that I hate that kind of pressure of hate that kind of pressure of hate that kind of pressure of because then you feel like like it because then you feel like like it because then you feel like like it shouldn't matter how I do it my process shouldn't matter how I do it my process shouldn't matter how I do it my process shouldn't matter out matter I appreciate shouldn't matter out matter I appreciate shouldn't matter out matter I appreciate that you acknowledge that because people that you acknowledge that because people that you acknowledge that because people in the comments will appreciate that as in the comments will appreciate that as in the comments will appreciate that as well because it's like hey man I might well because it's like hey man I might well because it's like hey man I might have to Google I might have to stack have to Google I might have to stack have to Google I might have to stack Overflow I might have to go for a walk I Overflow I might have to go for a walk I Overflow I might have to go for a walk I might have to eat a box of candy ex might have to eat a box of candy ex might have to eat a box of candy ex everybody's got their own process and everybody's got their own process and everybody's got their own process and that's okay Y how many Diet Cokes is it that's okay Y how many Diet Cokes is it that's okay Y how many Diet Cokes is it going to take for hansman to get this going to take for hansman to get this going to take for hansman to get this thing written a lot so good yeah yeah so I think that's

lot so good yeah yeah so I think that's important way know more important than important way know more important than important way know more important than ever the ever the ever the process it's ju TR yeah trusting the process it's ju TR yeah trusting the process it's ju TR yeah trusting the process um process um process um so this you know go to the Whiteboard so this you know go to the Whiteboard so this you know go to the Whiteboard and reverse the link list like that's and reverse the link list like that's and reverse the link list like that's just crap it's garbage like it's forcing just crap it's garbage like it's forcing just crap it's garbage like it's forcing somebody into something that's not somebody into something that's not somebody into something that's not relevant to the job you know when you relevant to the job you know when you relevant to the job you know when you tell me how many times do you feel like tell me how many times do you feel like tell me how many times do you feel like hey I need to write this code I'm gonna hey I need to write this code I'm gonna hey I need to write this code I'm gonna go to the Whiteboard straight to the go to the Whiteboard straight to the go to the Whiteboard straight to the Whiteboard and write out the algorithm Whiteboard and write out the algorithm Whiteboard and write out the algorithm first constantly yeah this is not a first constantly yeah this is not a first constantly yeah this is not a thing yeah but this is where the the AI thing yeah but this is where the the AI thing yeah but this is where the the AI coding stuff becomes really interesting coding stuff becomes really interesting coding stuff becomes really interesting to me I'm not sure if we've done a show to me I'm not sure if we've done a show to me I'm not sure if we've done a show this or not but I think you sent me a this or not but I think you sent me a this or not but I think you sent me a document we were talking about the rise document we were talking about the rise document we were talking about the rise of the expert of the expert of the expert beginner you thought about this there's beginner you thought about this there's beginner you thought about this there's some articles been going around about some articles been going around about some articles been going around about how AI coding yeah if if used how AI coding yeah if if used how AI coding yeah if if used incorrectly can create expert beginners incorrectly can create expert beginners incorrectly can create expert beginners so people incorrectly yeah if if you so people incorrectly yeah if if you so people incorrectly yeah if if you apply AI coding incorrectly if you apply AI coding incorrectly if you apply AI coding incorrectly if you basically teach a if I went and I taught basically teach a if I went and I taught basically teach a if I went and I taught there's there's there's a there's a there's there's there's a there's a there's there's there's a there's a question around this yeah my kids don't question around this yeah my kids don't question around this yeah my kids don't code okay they're just not interested in code okay they're just not interested in code okay they're just not interested in Tech you know one plays football one's Tech you know one plays football one's Tech you know one plays football one's an artist that's great an artist that's great an artist that's great but when we went and we made that but when we went and we made that but when we went and we made that website for my 17-year-old we used you website for my 17-year-old we used you website for my 17-year-old we used you know co-pilot and it saved us a ton of know co-pilot and it saved us a ton of know co-pilot and it saved us a ton of time it was spicy autocomplete and we time it was spicy autocomplete and we time it was spicy autocomplete and we got that thing done in like half an hour got that thing done in like half an hour got that thing done in like half an hour he didn't understand it so then the he didn't understand it so then the he didn't understand it so then the question is does it matter well in this question is does it matter well in this question is does it matter well in this case it doesn't matter because the site case it doesn't matter because the site case it doesn't matter because the site worked yeah and his goal was as a worked yeah and his goal was as a worked yeah and his goal was as a business person make the site work I

business person make the site work I business person make the site work I spent time later making sure I spent time later making sure I spent time later making sure I understood the JavaScript because I just understood the JavaScript because I just understood the JavaScript because I just couldn't not you know but then now he's couldn't not you know but then now he's couldn't not you know but then now he's an expert beginner he's like oh coding's an expert beginner he's like oh coding's an expert beginner he's like oh coding's easy I'm going to do this like I'm going easy I'm going to do this like I'm going easy I'm going to do this like I'm going to bang out website you know and it's to bang out website you know and it's to bang out website you know and it's just like it's going to be easy until just like it's going to be easy until just like it's going to be easy until it's not easy I've got strong opinions it's not easy I've got strong opinions it's not easy I've got strong opinions on this one yeah so he's an expert on this one yeah so he's an expert on this one yeah so he's an expert beginner now yeah so um those coding beginner now yeah so um those coding beginner now yeah so um those coding systems like uh Devon and systems like uh Devon and systems like uh Devon and repet where you're like hey go make this repet where you're like hey go make this repet where you're like hey go make this website that does these five things and website that does these five things and website that does these five things and yeah bolt to another yeah and then it yeah bolt to another yeah and then it yeah bolt to another yeah and then it starts and thinks about it and comes starts and thinks about it and comes starts and thinks about it and comes with the plans you owe me to add these with the plans you owe me to add these with the plans you owe me to add these things and goes off and you know an hour things and goes off and you know an hour things and goes off and you know an hour later it's like here you go and you look later it's like here you go and you look later it's like here you go and you look at it and it doesn't quite do what you at it and it doesn't quite do what you at it and it doesn't quite do what you want so here's the problem and I think want so here's the problem and I think want so here's the problem and I think why at least I see no line of sight into why at least I see no line of sight into why at least I see no line of sight into AI completely replacing AI completely replacing AI completely replacing programmers no line of sight that's a programmers no line of sight that's a programmers no line of sight that's a that's a hot take that's a spicy take that's a hot take that's a spicy take that's a hot take that's a spicy take right there and I'll tell you um and right there and I'll tell you um and right there and I'll tell you um and there's a few reasons for it one of there's a few reasons for it one of there's a few reasons for it one of them them them is when this systems these systems is when this systems these systems is when this systems these systems hallucinate just in inherently they hallucinate just in inherently they hallucinate just in inherently they hallucinate and so how do you know that hallucinate and so how do you know that hallucinate and so how do you know that the code that they're creating is the code that they're creating is the code that they're creating is correct well they can write unit tests correct well they can write unit tests correct well they can write unit tests for it but they don't they can't write for it but they don't they can't write for it but they don't they can't write unit test for the full spec of what you unit test for the full spec of what you unit test for the full spec of what you imagine you want it to be like they can imagine you want it to be like they can imagine you want it to be like they can only guess what you want So speaking of only guess what you want So speaking of only guess what you want So speaking of systems systems systems thinking um when you sit down like hey thinking um when you sit down like hey thinking um when you sit down like hey I'm gonna make a website that is shows a I'm gonna make a website that is shows a I'm gonna make a website that is shows a map of the United States and you can map of the United States and you can map of the United States and you can drill in and it'll show you counties and drill in and it'll show you counties and drill in and it'll show you counties and it'll pull data from the government's it'll pull data from the government's it'll pull data from the government's engineering usage statistics and so you

engineering usage statistics and so you engineering usage statistics and so you can go look at county by county how much can go look at county by county how much can go look at county by county how much energy do they use over year and what energy do they use over year and what energy do they use over year and what sources of energy cons I love that I'm sources of energy cons I love that I'm sources of energy cons I love that I'm architecting this in my head as you're architecting this in my head as you're architecting this in my head as you're describing it yeah so um you know what describing it yeah so um you know what describing it yeah so um you know what you would do like you would have the you would do like you would have the you would do like you would have the spec for that in your head would you spec for that in your head would you spec for that in your head would you actually would you sit down and spend actually would you sit down and spend actually would you sit down and spend two hours writing down exactly you know two hours writing down exactly you know two hours writing down exactly you know when they click on this this is what when they click on this this is what when they click on this this is what happens when they click on that that's happens when they click on that that's happens when they click on that that's what happens no I would I would probably what happens no I would I would probably what happens no I would I would probably for me I'd write 10 user stories for me I'd write 10 user stories for me I'd write 10 user stories probably on like a notebook or like in probably on like a notebook or like in probably on like a notebook or like in notepad and I just start banging the notepad and I just start banging the notepad and I just start banging the user stories out by you know broad user stories out by you know broad user stories out by you know broad Strokes to detailed stuff not a lot Strokes to detailed stuff not a lot Strokes to detailed stuff not a lot there maybe 10 minutes of typ yeah and there maybe 10 minutes of typ yeah and there maybe 10 minutes of typ yeah and that I would just write bullets for what that I would just write bullets for what that I would just write bullets for what I want and then start coding like first I want and then start coding like first I want and then start coding like first I need a thing to show a map I need to I need a thing to show a map I need to I need a thing to show a map I need to know I need to show the map needs to know I need to show the map needs to know I need to show the map needs to have this concept of States you know have this concept of States you know have this concept of States you know that needs to be in the code and I need that needs to be in the code and I need that needs to be in the code and I need to be able click Bob Ross yeah happy to be able click Bob Ross yeah happy to be able click Bob Ross yeah happy little Maps um so let's say that you little Maps um so let's say that you little Maps um so let's say that you wanted to use AI one of these AI coding wanted to use AI one of these AI coding wanted to use AI one of these AI coding platforms to do that you you go and tell platforms to do that you you go and tell platforms to do that you you go and tell it what you want it what you want it what you want uh you probably haven't fully specified uh you probably haven't fully specified uh you probably haven't fully specified it even when you go write it down you it even when you go write it down you it even when you go write it down you haven't fully specified it yeah yeah and haven't fully specified it yeah yeah and haven't fully specified it yeah yeah and so the system goes and creates something so the system goes and creates something so the system goes and creates something and it misunderstood something or it and it misunderstood something or it and it misunderstood something or it missed missed missed something or it has a bug something or it has a bug something or it has a bug somewhere and so it doesn't do what you somewhere and so it doesn't do what you somewhere and so it doesn't do what you want and so at this point what are you want and so at this point what are you want and so at this point what are you left with you're left with hey you left with you're left with hey you left with you're left with hey you didn't do this right go fix this and

didn't do this right go fix this and didn't do this right go fix this and I'll tell you the model might not I'll tell you the model might not I'll tell you the model might not understand that the code has gotten understand that the code has gotten understand that the code has gotten complicated and so when it fixes one complicated and so when it fixes one complicated and so when it fixes one thing it breaks another thing and at thing it breaks another thing and at thing it breaks another thing and at that point what are you left with it's that point what are you left with it's that point what are you left with it's like you go through a few iterations and like you go through a few iterations and like you go through a few iterations and the and the AI you can't quite get the the and the AI you can't quite get the the and the AI you can't quite get the AI platform to fully fix what you're AI platform to fully fix what you're AI platform to fully fix what you're going for fully implement it MH so now going for fully implement it MH so now going for fully implement it MH so now you own a piece of code that you have you own a piece of code that you have you own a piece of code that you have you didn't write any you didn't write any you didn't write any of and yeah you're and at this point if of and yeah you're and at this point if of and yeah you're and at this point if you don't know how to code you're you don't know how to code you're you don't know how to code you're completely dead in the water if you do completely dead in the water if you do completely dead in the water if you do know how to code you now have a know how to code you now have a know how to code you now have a Brownfield application you need to take Brownfield application you need to take Brownfield application you need to take over that literally happened when we over that literally happened when we over that literally happened when we were writing this thing he was said he were writing this thing he was said he were writing this thing he was said he wanted like wanted like wanted like Matrix uh rain coming down and he asked Matrix uh rain coming down and he asked Matrix uh rain coming down and he asked somehow he asked for green Matrix rain somehow he asked for green Matrix rain somehow he asked for green Matrix rain but the uh the the AI did it in red and but the uh the the AI did it in red and but the uh the the AI did it in red and did it with ones and zeros rather than did it with ones and zeros rather than did it with ones and zeros rather than the Matrix like you know quasi Asian the Matrix like you know quasi Asian the Matrix like you know quasi Asian characters and he didn't know how to get characters and he didn't know how to get characters and he didn't know how to get it to go back so he just gave up and he it to go back so he just gave up and he it to go back so he just gave up and he just went with their he's like Ah that's just went with their he's like Ah that's just went with their he's like Ah that's fine so we started in inheriting fine so we started in inheriting fine so we started in inheriting technical debt from the thing and it did technical debt from the thing and it did technical debt from the thing and it did not turn out how he envisioned it turned not turn out how he envisioned it turned not turn out how he envisioned it turned out like a parallel universe out like a parallel universe out like a parallel universe spider-verse version of what we imagined spider-verse version of what we imagined spider-verse version of what we imagined and it was fine but it was definitely and it was fine but it was definitely and it was fine but it was definitely not what he envisioned yeah I mean not what he envisioned yeah I mean not what he envisioned yeah I mean that's a great example it was two two that's a great example it was two two that's a great example it was two two steps forward one step back and I think steps forward one step back and I think steps forward one step back and I think that this is just that this is just that this is just inherent um and the risk here is that

inherent um and the risk here is that inherent um and the risk here is that you have the system you invest a lot of you have the system you invest a lot of you have the system you invest a lot of time it's built this big thing and then time it's built this big thing and then time it's built this big thing and then you need to change it or it you need to you need to change it or it you need to you need to change it or it you need to deliver this project and it's and it's deliver this project and it's and it's deliver this project and it's and it's not able to and now you're forced with not able to and now you're forced with not able to and now you're forced with you know inheriting the Brownfield like you know inheriting the Brownfield like you know inheriting the Brownfield like let's say that hey you you were let's say that hey you you were let's say that hey you you were delivering this to somebody that had delivering this to somebody that had delivering this to somebody that had actually contracted it or paying him to actually contracted it or paying him to actually contracted it or paying him to create it and you're stuck at the red create it and you're stuck at the red create it and you're stuck at the red and it's like no this I I think it's and it's like no this I I think it's and it's like no this I I think it's okay but that's not what I'm being paid okay but that's not what I'm being paid okay but that's not what I'm being paid for I need to fix for I need to fix for I need to fix it and at that it and at that it and at that point you could take over the code and point you could take over the code and point you could take over the code and be like okay what's the AI trying to do be like okay what's the AI trying to do be like okay what's the AI trying to do where's thew let me fix it he's dead where's thew let me fix it he's dead where's thew let me fix it he's dead like he's like fail like let me give you like he's like fail like let me give you like he's like fail like let me give you another one it I we asked it to do the another one it I we asked it to do the another one it I we asked it to do the Matrix reain and it generated Matrix reain and it generated Matrix reain and it generated 256 256 256 spans like hardcoded with ones and zeros spans like hardcoded with ones and zeros spans like hardcoded with ones and zeros in them and then named them span one in them and then named them span one in them and then named them span one span two span three and then it used span two span three and then it used span two span three and then it used JavaScript to manipulate the Dom to move JavaScript to manipulate the Dom to move JavaScript to manipulate the Dom to move these spans around and it was like these spans around and it was like these spans around and it was like heating up my laptop and it would not heating up my laptop and it would not heating up my laptop and it would not run on mobile at all so then I had to run on mobile at all so then I had to run on mobile at all so then I had to step in because you know the 7y old was step in because you know the 7y old was step in because you know the 7y old was doing I was like you know do this doing I was like you know do this doing I was like you know do this programmatically without creating it programmatically without creating it programmatically without creating it more than two spans or something like more than two spans or something like more than two spans or something like that and it was like what were you that and it was like what were you that and it was like what were you trained on that you thought that was a trained on that you thought that was a trained on that you thought that was a good idea it just went off running it good idea it just went off running it good idea it just went off running it was crazy so that's one reason and and was crazy so that's one reason and and was crazy so that's one reason and and um the risk here like even for so the um the risk here like even for so the um the risk here like even for so the risk is somebody that's the expert risk is somebody that's the expert risk is somebody that's the expert beginner is dead like they can't deliver beginner is dead like they can't deliver beginner is dead like they can't deliver the project that they want they just

the project that they want they just the project that they want they just um and for even for the the experienced um and for even for the the experienced um and for even for the the experienced programmer like you now you might have programmer like you now you might have programmer like you now you might have to spend two hours to understand the to spend two hours to understand the to spend two hours to understand the code so that you can fix it and if you code so that you can fix it and if you code so that you can fix it and if you just sat down you know there's some just sat down you know there's some just sat down you know there's some trade-off somewhere if you just sat down trade-off somewhere if you just sat down trade-off somewhere if you just sat down and had AI guide you as you or help you and had AI guide you as you or help you and had AI guide you as you or help you code as you coded it you might be done code as you coded it you might be done code as you coded it you might be done faster than having the AI go try to spit faster than having the AI go try to spit faster than having the AI go try to spit out the whole thing and then you take it out the whole thing and then you take it out the whole thing and then you take it over and try to learn it and then fix it over and try to learn it and then fix it over and try to learn it and then fix it I ended up being a an expert BS detector I ended up being a an expert BS detector I ended up being a an expert BS detector because I was basically the AI was because I was basically the AI was because I was basically the AI was bringing a great job and then it started bringing a great job and then it started bringing a great job and then it started to generate some BS and I was to generate some BS and I was to generate some BS and I was like how much like how much BS can I like how much like how much BS can I like how much like how much BS can I tolerate yeah like I was like I'm fine tolerate yeah like I was like I'm fine tolerate yeah like I was like I'm fine with that hack but then it started to with that hack but then it started to with that hack but then it started to get weird and then the spans showed up get weird and then the spans showed up get weird and then the spans showed up and I was like no this is unacceptable and I was like no this is unacceptable and I was like no this is unacceptable this is officially like not where we this is officially like not where we this is officially like not where we need to be and then getting that to undo need to be and then getting that to undo need to be and then getting that to undo was was was messy you're right if I had was was was messy you're right if I had was was was messy you're right if I had simply had it like over my shoulder simply had it like over my shoulder simply had it like over my shoulder going hey like like a partner which is going hey like like a partner which is going hey like like a partner which is where we get into that conversation where we get into that conversation where we get into that conversation about the Socratic method brainstorming about the Socratic method brainstorming about the Socratic method brainstorming with an AI because you're really just with an AI because you're really just with an AI because you're really just talking to yourself in the mirror is talking to yourself in the mirror is talking to yourself in the mirror is sometimes a better way than um than just sometimes a better way than um than just sometimes a better way than um than just asking it to make so you do use co-pilot asking it to make so you do use co-pilot asking it to make so you do use co-pilot though to generate things I use I though to generate things I use I though to generate things I use I generate 95% of the coop you're not a generate 95% of the coop you're not a generate 95% of the coop you're not a hater no no to be clear and we've talked hater no no to be clear and we've talked hater no no to be clear and we've talked about this before 90 when I do these AI about this before 90 when I do these AI about this before 90 when I do these AI research projects which is a bulk of my research projects which is a bulk of my research projects which is a bulk of my programming now 95% of it is AI programming now 95% of it is AI programming now 95% of it is AI generated or more it doesn't always get generated or more it doesn't always get generated or more it doesn't always get it right and sometimes I need to step in it right and sometimes I need to step in it right and sometimes I need to step in and fix things um sometimes I write a

and fix things um sometimes I write a and fix things um sometimes I write a little piece of code here and there little piece of code here and there little piece of code here and there where it's just more convenient than where it's just more convenient than where it's just more convenient than asking the AI and giving it the spec asking the AI and giving it the spec asking the AI and giving it the spec basically I can do it myself really basically I can do it myself really basically I can do it myself really quickly but it writes most of it and quickly but it writes most of it and quickly but it writes most of it and um and I understand the code well enough um and I understand the code well enough um and I understand the code well enough that when it screws it up I can take a that when it screws it up I can take a that when it screws it up I can take a look and understand okay so this is what look and understand okay so this is what look and understand okay so this is what it thinks I asked for when I didn't and it thinks I asked for when I didn't and it thinks I asked for when I didn't and I need to go back and either correct it I need to go back and either correct it I need to go back and either correct it or or I can fix the code right here or or I can fix the code right here or or I can fix the code right here because it's simple enough because it's simple enough because it's simple enough if I didn't know how to code I wouldn't if I didn't know how to code I wouldn't if I didn't know how to code I wouldn't be able to be this productive and I be able to be this productive and I be able to be this productive and I think so just bottom line that is one think so just bottom line that is one think so just bottom line that is one reason AI won't kill programming this reason AI won't kill programming this reason AI won't kill programming this problem of specification yeah detail problem of specification yeah detail problem of specification yeah detail and uh what becomes Brownfield and uh what becomes Brownfield and uh what becomes Brownfield code the instant it's created yeah the code the instant it's created yeah the code the instant it's created yeah the other reason that I also think uh Pro AI other reason that I also think uh Pro AI other reason that I also think uh Pro AI programming won't completely take programming won't completely take programming won't completely take over is if you take a over is if you take a over is if you take a so I was having it write some code and so I was having it write some code and so I was having it write some code and uh you know open eyes sdks have changed uh you know open eyes sdks have changed uh you know open eyes sdks have changed over time for d new models and U for new over time for d new models and U for new over time for d new models and U for new capabilities and you ask the model to go capabilities and you ask the model to go capabilities and you ask the model to go create some code based on off open AI create some code based on off open AI create some code based on off open AI SDK and it actually generated code using SDK and it actually generated code using SDK and it actually generated code using the old version of the the old version of the the old version of the API yeah training data stuck in the past API yeah training data stuck in the past API yeah training data stuck in the past it's stuck in the past and it might even it's stuck in the past and it might even it's stuck in the past and it might even be have trained after the new SDK came be have trained after the new SDK came be have trained after the new SDK came out but it's just just got more examples out but it's just just got more examples out but it's just just got more examples of the old code so it wants to use the of the old code so it wants to use the of the old code so it wants to use the old

old old code so you can tell it use the new code code so you can tell it use the new code code so you can tell it use the new code but it might not know it as deeply but it might not know it as deeply but it might not know it as deeply because there's not enough examples out because there's not enough examples out because there's not enough examples out there so the second a new API comes out there so the second a new API comes out there so the second a new API comes out AI doesn't know how to use it because it AI doesn't know how to use it because it AI doesn't know how to use it because it has no examples and then you need to go has no examples and then you need to go has no examples and then you need to go and rag over new documentation even rag and rag over new documentation even rag and rag over new documentation even rag is not going to teach it like here go is not going to teach it like here go is not going to teach it like here go tell me go take Microsoft's tell me go take Microsoft's tell me go take Microsoft's documentation yeah for whatever API you documentation yeah for whatever API you documentation yeah for whatever API you want and say is that a good enough is want and say is that a good enough is want and say is that a good enough is that enough for AI to even that enough that enough for AI to even that enough that enough for AI to even that enough for human like how many times have you for human like how many times have you for human like how many times have you gone to API documentation and it's not gone to API documentation and it's not gone to API documentation and it's not just Microsoft but lots where it's like just Microsoft but lots where it's like just Microsoft but lots where it's like here's the API um it's the rest call here's the API um it's the rest call here's the API um it's the rest call here are the here are the properties here are the here are the properties here are the here are the properties property one Val you know yeah time this property one Val you know yeah time this property one Val you know yeah time this is the time uh people need to build is the time uh people need to build is the time uh people need to build experience they need to mess around with experience they need to mess around with experience they need to mess around with the thing for and the documentation is the thing for and the documentation is the thing for and the documentation is purely just here's the structure and the purely just here's the structure and the purely just here's the structure and the names of the it's generated names of the it's generated names of the it's generated documentation because it's generated documentation because it's generated documentation because it's generated there's like no like there's nothing there's like no like there's nothing there's like no like there's nothing about you use this after calling this about you use this after calling this about you use this after calling this other API it takes an object like this other API it takes an object like this other API it takes an object like this and no no context so an AI is not going and no no context so an AI is not going and no no context so an AI is not going to a human can't understand it AI is not to a human can't understand it AI is not to a human can't understand it AI is not going to understand it how to use going to understand it how to use going to understand it how to use it so I think that's another reason why it so I think that's another reason why it so I think that's another reason why AI can't completely take over AI can't completely take over AI can't completely take over programming is it just doesn't know what programming is it just doesn't know what programming is it just doesn't know what the current API set is it doesn't know the current API set is it doesn't know the current API set is it doesn't know apis in apis in apis in general um and there's a few other general um and there's a few other general um and there's a few other miscellaneous reasons but those are two miscellaneous reasons but those are two miscellaneous reasons but those are two big ones yeah as we get towards the end big ones yeah as we get towards the end big ones yeah as we get towards the end one last thing to think about is

one last thing to think about is one last thing to think about is environment setup what I've always environment setup what I've always environment setup what I've always called Yak shaving yeah so like I've called Yak shaving yeah so like I've called Yak shaving yeah so like I've been doing a lot of python lately and been doing a lot of python lately and been doing a lot of python lately and the number one issue is not the python the number one issue is not the python the number one issue is not the python yeah it's it's Python and V environments yeah it's it's Python and V environments yeah it's it's Python and V environments multiple I got a python and user bin I multiple I got a python and user bin I multiple I got a python and user bin I got another Python and whatever share got another Python and whatever share got another Python and whatever share bin like bro there's tip and there's bin like bro there's tip and there's bin like bro there's tip and there's this and then that and then there's this and then that and then there's this and then that and then there's wheels and and then there's like this wheels and and then there's like this wheels and and then there's like this package is incompatible with that package is incompatible with that package is incompatible with that version of that package but there's version of that package but there's version of that package but there's package which isn't compatible with this package which isn't compatible with this package which isn't compatible with this one but not that one and oh crap none of one but not that one and oh crap none of one but not that one and oh crap none of the like I can't use all three at the the like I can't use all three at the the like I can't use all three at the same time yeah and I'm trying to do all same time yeah and I'm trying to do all same time yeah and I'm trying to do all of this on arm yeah and I'm finding with of this on arm yeah and I'm finding with of this on arm yeah and I'm finding with working with Anthony Shaw we're finding working with Anthony Shaw we're finding working with Anthony Shaw we're finding that like oh you need to go and compile that like oh you need to go and compile that like oh you need to go and compile this native wheel on arm because no one this native wheel on arm because no one this native wheel on arm because no one ever compiled it before and then it's ever compiled it before and then it's ever compiled it before and then it's the left pad problem you know I I think the left pad problem you know I I think the left pad problem you know I I think just in conclusion yeah AI is a huge just in conclusion yeah AI is a huge just in conclusion yeah AI is a huge accelerant for somebody that's an expert accelerant for somebody that's an expert accelerant for somebody that's an expert for somebody that's a beginner they may for somebody that's a beginner they may for somebody that's a beginner they may be able to do simple projects but be able to do simple projects but be able to do simple projects but nothing complicated so we need to teach nothing complicated so we need to teach nothing complicated so we need to teach the young people the the young people the the young people the early they got to learn systems yeah and early they got to learn systems yeah and early they got to learn systems yeah and how to program got to learn how to how to program got to learn how to how to program got to learn how to program all program all program all right well if you have made it this far right well if you have made it this far right well if you have made it this far into Market Scot learn spread the word into Market Scot learn spread the word into Market Scot learn spread the word put us uh put some um reviews wherever put us uh put some um reviews wherever put us uh put some um reviews wherever you review your podcast it helps us a you review your podcast it helps us a you review your podcast it helps us a lot please share these things on lot please share these things on lot please share these things on LinkedIn Mark want to see the numbers go LinkedIn Mark want to see the numbers go LinkedIn Mark want to see the numbers go up if you want to like write an AI give up if you want to like write an AI give up if you want to like write an AI give us comments too yeah give us comments us comments too yeah give us comments us comments too yeah give us comments write an AI that just watches the show write an AI that just watches the show write an AI that just watches the show over and over again to get the numbers over and over again to get the numbers over and over again to get the numbers up that would be very up that would be very up that would be very helpful yes good tip yeah you can do

helpful yes good tip yeah you can do helpful yes good tip yeah you can do that yes but yeah comments let us know that yes but yeah comments let us know that yes but yeah comments let us know that you're out there otherwise uh he'll that you're out there otherwise uh he'll that you're out there otherwise uh he'll stop hanging out with me and then he'll stop hanging out with me and then he'll stop hanging out with me and then he'll just be like Scott talks to himself and just be like Scott talks to himself and just be like Scott talks to himself and we don't want that see you uh see you we don't want that see you uh see you we don't want that see you uh see you next week that would be it for one next week that would be it for one next week that would be it for one episode Scott slowly loses his mind as episode Scott slowly loses his mind as episode Scott slowly loses his mind as he talks to himself in his he talks to himself in his he talks to himself in his office all right that's our end right office all right that's our end right office all right that's our end right there friends