Take hold of your own performance with Ash Coleman Hynie

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contribution I literally just filled out contribution I literally just filled out my annual review and then like I don't my annual review and then like I don't my annual review and then like I don't know why they put it right at know why they put it right at know why they put it right at Thanksgiving so if I'm supposed to fill Thanksgiving so if I'm supposed to fill Thanksgiving so if I'm supposed to fill it out and then be thankful to have a it out and then be thankful to have a it out and then be thankful to have a job or what that's about but I I filled job or what that's about but I I filled job or what that's about but I I filled it out and it's just like I hope it's it out and it's just like I hope it's it out and it's just like I hope it's okay and my it's called a connect at okay and my it's called a connect at okay and my it's called a connect at Microsoft it's basically a quarterly Microsoft it's basically a quarterly Microsoft it's basically a quarterly review and um they they they always try review and um they they they always try review and um they they they always try to downplay it but that there's tension to downplay it but that there's tension to downplay it but that there's tension you know what I mean there's tension you know what I mean there's tension you know what I mean there's tension there uh and my boss rejected it so he there uh and my boss rejected it so he there uh and my boss rejected it so he he like rejected it and he my boss is he like rejected it and he my boss is he like rejected it and he my boss is cool so like I'm talking crap about my cool so like I'm talking crap about my cool so like I'm talking crap about my boss in a podcast but he rejected it and boss in a podcast but he rejected it and boss in a podcast but he rejected it and he's like I don't even know what you're he's like I don't even know what you're he's like I don't even know what you're saying here like talk to me and then and saying here like talk to me and then and saying here like talk to me and then and and it was very crisp and I got a little and it was very crisp and I got a little and it was very crisp and I got a little upset and I went for a walk and I was upset and I went for a walk and I was upset and I went for a walk and I was like you know he's actually right and like you know he's actually right and like you know he's actually right and then I went back in and I fixed it and I then I went back in and I fixed it and I then I went back in and I fixed it and I was much more um qu quantitative much was much more um qu quantitative much was much more um qu quantitative much more clear about what I was doing and more clear about what I was doing and more clear about what I was doing and then I realized that that was kind of a then I realized that that was kind of a then I realized that that was kind of a tough love lowercase T but he was right tough love lowercase T but he was right tough love lowercase T but he was right and then I was mad at him because he was and then I was mad at him because he was and then I was mad at him because he was right but all of that is based on a right but all of that is based on a right but all of that is based on a decade of actually having a boss that decade of actually having a boss that decade of actually having a boss that cares so right long monologue there and cares so right long monologue there and cares so right long monologue there and I didn't mean to not let you talk but I didn't mean to not let you talk but I didn't mean to not let you talk but like I feel like everyone should have like I feel like everyone should have like I feel like everyone should have that experience with their boss and that experience with their boss and that experience with their boss and virtually no one has those no one has it virtually no one has those no one has it virtually no one has those no one has it no one has it the Dynamics of managers no one has it the Dynamics of managers no one has it the Dynamics of managers and independent contributors has changed and independent contributors has changed and independent contributors has changed so much over the years and for those so much over the years and for those so much over the years and for those folks who are managers like myself and folks who are managers like myself and folks who are managers like myself and have been for many years I look at the

have been for many years I look at the have been for many years I look at the industry and it makes me incredibly sad industry and it makes me incredibly sad industry and it makes me incredibly sad to see how people perceive their to see how people perceive their to see how people perceive their managers but also it's in conjunction managers but also it's in conjunction managers but also it's in conjunction with what managers have become within with what managers have become within with what managers have become within the organization we're seeing these the organization we're seeing these the organization we're seeing these Trends these days of a thinning manager Trends these days of a thinning manager Trends these days of a thinning manager layer and even the promotion of managers layer and even the promotion of managers layer and even the promotion of managers going back to individual contributor going back to individual contributor going back to individual contributor roles because there is so much oversight roles because there is so much oversight roles because there is so much oversight or so much need for managers to actually or so much need for managers to actually or so much need for managers to actually produce and I can see the it's do I produce and I can see the it's do I produce and I can see the it's do I spend my time managing individuals and spend my time managing individuals and spend my time managing individuals and growing them or do I spend my time growing them or do I spend my time growing them or do I spend my time working on the things that I actually working on the things that I actually working on the things that I actually enjoy and this is something that has enjoy and this is something that has enjoy and this is something that has grown to such a huge issue these days grown to such a huge issue these days grown to such a huge issue these days and that's one of the motivations behind and that's one of the motivations behind and that's one of the motivations behind Counterpoint so are what what has Counterpoint so are what what has Counterpoint so are what what has changed because you're right it it does changed because you're right it it does changed because you're right it it does feel different I also feel like and I'm feel different I also feel like and I'm feel different I also feel like and I'm not speaking about Microsoft not speaking about Microsoft not speaking about Microsoft specifically but that's my where I'm at specifically but that's my where I'm at specifically but that's my where I'm at right now uh people wake up one day and right now uh people wake up one day and right now uh people wake up one day and become a manager become a manager become a manager while in the past when I started care while in the past when I started care while in the past when I started care path it was a career path it was a very path it was a career path it was a very path it was a career path it was a very formal thing and there was very formal formal thing and there was very formal formal thing and there was very formal training in-person training and now I training in-person training and now I training in-person training and now I feel like people just get assigned some feel like people just get assigned some feel like people just get assigned some like here's four people you're a manager like here's four people you're a manager like here's four people you're a manager now watch this video in double speed yep now watch this video in double speed yep now watch this video in double speed yep and we uh so one of my last gigs we were and we uh so one of my last gigs we were and we uh so one of my last gigs we were responsible for creating a program the responsible for creating a program the responsible for creating a program the do I want to be a manager program and do I want to be a manager program and do I want to be a manager program and this was because so often Engineers were this was because so often Engineers were this was because so often Engineers were so efficient at their jobs that they so efficient at their jobs that they so efficient at their jobs that they just just grew to the point where folks just just grew to the point where folks just just grew to the point where folks allocated being a manager to them

allocated being a manager to them allocated being a manager to them instead of them taking that career path instead of them taking that career path instead of them taking that career path into the field and then what you get are into the field and then what you get are into the field and then what you get are a number of resentful Engineers who are a number of resentful Engineers who are a number of resentful Engineers who are spending their time growing people who spending their time growing people who spending their time growing people who in some ways they're in competition with in some ways they're in competition with in some ways they're in competition with some ways they could do the work and some ways they could do the work and some ways they could do the work and they feel they can do it better there's they feel they can do it better there's they feel they can do it better there's this mind shift that happens when you this mind shift that happens when you this mind shift that happens when you become a manager and I remember my first become a manager and I remember my first become a manager and I remember my first couple of years where I had to turn off couple of years where I had to turn off couple of years where I had to turn off the well I can just do it myself and the well I can just do it myself and the well I can just do it myself and learn how to delegate and I think for learn how to delegate and I think for learn how to delegate and I think for those folks who are really great at those folks who are really great at those folks who are really great at their job in engineering who don't want their job in engineering who don't want their job in engineering who don't want to be managers who are allocated to the to be managers who are allocated to the to be managers who are allocated to the job letting that go is one of the job letting that go is one of the job letting that go is one of the hardest things and they find themselves hardest things and they find themselves hardest things and they find themselves in competition with it for many years in competition with it for many years in competition with it for many years after yeah I have a team now and I'm after yeah I have a team now and I'm after yeah I have a team now and I'm what we call an M2 a manager of managers what we call an M2 a manager of managers what we call an M2 a manager of managers two is what we call it at Microsoft and two is what we call it at Microsoft and two is what we call it at Microsoft and I've always felt like am I supposed to I've always felt like am I supposed to I've always felt like am I supposed to just do one-on ones all day long because just do one-on ones all day long because just do one-on ones all day long because I'm also I also like my individual I'm also I also like my individual I'm also I also like my individual contributor job yeah so then what's the contributor job yeah so then what's the contributor job yeah so then what's the correct amount of being me and then my correct amount of being me and then my correct amount of being me and then my direct my directs who have a team of direct my directs who have a team of direct my directs who have a team of their own how much individual their own how much individual their own how much individual contribution should they do and what contribution should they do and what contribution should they do and what feeds their Spirit what feeds their you feeds their Spirit what feeds their you feeds their Spirit what feeds their you know because otherwise it's just know because otherwise it's just know because otherwise it's just management by walking around and no one management by walking around and no one management by walking around and no one no and Everyone likes to be a no and Everyone likes to be a no and Everyone likes to be a contributor and something I the M1 to M2 contributor and something I the M1 to M2 contributor and something I the M1 to M2 shift is another as well right you're shift is another as well right you're shift is another as well right you're now leading leaders uh versus leading now leading leaders uh versus leading now leading leaders uh versus leading individual contributors and so it's a individual contributors and so it's a individual contributors and so it's a different type of management technique different type of management technique different type of management technique altogether altogether altogether but I always almost jokingly say in the but I always almost jokingly say in the but I always almost jokingly say in the beginning it should be 50/50 you should

beginning it should be 50/50 you should beginning it should be 50/50 you should be able to say 50% of my time is be able to say 50% of my time is be able to say 50% of my time is allocated to doing my work and to allocated to doing my work and to allocated to doing my work and to working on what I would consider direct working on what I would consider direct working on what I would consider direct impact to the business from coding or impact to the business from coding or impact to the business from coding or whatever my skill set is and then the whatever my skill set is and then the whatever my skill set is and then the other 50% is growing individuals other 50% is growing individuals other 50% is growing individuals monitoring uh documenting reporting Etc monitoring uh documenting reporting Etc monitoring uh documenting reporting Etc there is nowhere near that margin or there is nowhere near that margin or there is nowhere near that margin or that metric that is happening with that metric that is happening with that metric that is happening with managers these days and you can see just managers these days and you can see just managers these days and you can see just by the way work is allocated and what by the way work is allocated and what by the way work is allocated and what the responsibilities look like to the the responsibilities look like to the the responsibilities look like to the organization okay so since we're doing organization okay so since we're doing organization okay so since we're doing real talk here why real talk here why real talk here why is it feels like there's a a a an is it feels like there's a a a an is it feels like there's a a a an erosion of respect for the manager job erosion of respect for the manager job erosion of respect for the manager job by by the line Engineers by the by the by by the line Engineers by the by the by by the line Engineers by the by the rank and file they're like I don't even rank and file they're like I don't even rank and file they're like I don't even know what my manager does anymore right know what my manager does anymore right know what my manager does anymore right they just call me and they want status they just call me and they want status they just call me and they want status updates and then we get into the and updates and then we get into the and updates and then we get into the and then and then you add in remote work you then and then you add in remote work you then and then you add in remote work you get into this sense of there's a lot of get into this sense of there's a lot of get into this sense of there's a lot of busy work there's a lot of reporting up busy work there's a lot of reporting up busy work there's a lot of reporting up the chain and informing people that the chain and informing people that the chain and informing people that stuff is happening but I'm like for what stuff is happening but I'm like for what stuff is happening but I'm like for what purpose right you know we do these purpose right you know we do these purpose right you know we do these pillar documents where everyone gets in pillar documents where everyone gets in pillar documents where everyone gets in a Word document and writes a 40 freaking a Word document and writes a 40 freaking a Word document and writes a 40 freaking page document and then we get on a call page document and then we get on a call page document and then we get on a call and we sit there for an hour and we all and we sit there for an hour and we all and we sit there for an hour and we all read read read it yeah this it doesn't really feel it yeah this it doesn't really feel it yeah this it doesn't really feel productive but I don't remember doing productive but I don't remember doing productive but I don't remember doing that 15 20 years ago and it feels like that 15 20 years ago and it feels like that 15 20 years ago and it feels like the whole role has changed the whole role has changed the whole role has changed and I think that it not necessarily that and I think that it not necessarily that and I think that it not necessarily that happened on purpose but it is in some

happened on purpose but it is in some happened on purpose but it is in some ways filling the job of a manager to ways filling the job of a manager to ways filling the job of a manager to what would be idealistic for a manager what would be idealistic for a manager what would be idealistic for a manager these days is how do we how do we these days is how do we how do we these days is how do we how do we account for the type of numbers that account for the type of numbers that account for the type of numbers that we're pushing through our quarterly we're pushing through our quarterly we're pushing through our quarterly goals or how do we account for the goals or how do we account for the goals or how do we account for the bottom line and how we're making impact bottom line and how we're making impact bottom line and how we're making impact on that and you need numbers to be able on that and you need numbers to be able on that and you need numbers to be able to say that and I learned this initially to say that and I learned this initially to say that and I learned this initially when I was in quality engineering and we when I was in quality engineering and we when I was in quality engineering and we would talk about how many bugs we would would talk about how many bugs we would would talk about how many bugs we would find and we would use that as the metric find and we would use that as the metric find and we would use that as the metric to understand how well our quality to understand how well our quality to understand how well our quality engineering team was doing yeah and engineering team was doing yeah and engineering team was doing yeah and anyone who understands uh finding fixing anyone who understands uh finding fixing anyone who understands uh finding fixing and and building code you know that the and and building code you know that the and and building code you know that the number of bugs isn't indicative on how number of bugs isn't indicative on how number of bugs isn't indicative on how quality the product is itself but people quality the product is itself but people quality the product is itself but people will use a superficial number or or this will use a superficial number or or this will use a superficial number or or this reporting to be able to create the story reporting to be able to create the story reporting to be able to create the story that they want to tell the story is more that they want to tell the story is more that they want to tell the story is more important than the numbers but people important than the numbers but people important than the numbers but people will find anything to justify the will find anything to justify the will find anything to justify the numbers to be able to tell the story numbers to be able to tell the story numbers to be able to tell the story that organization wants to hear yeah that organization wants to hear yeah that organization wants to hear yeah that that is interesting and then we that that is interesting and then we that that is interesting and then we also are this erosion of trust and the also are this erosion of trust and the also are this erosion of trust and the story that they want the organization to story that they want the organization to story that they want the organization to hear uh starts getting people thinking hear uh starts getting people thinking hear uh starts getting people thinking that their bosses are looking at whether that their bosses are looking at whether that their bosses are looking at whether their Mouse is moving or not you know their Mouse is moving or not you know their Mouse is moving or not you know and like you get these myths about like and like you get these myths about like and like you get these myths about like teams Microsoft teams is looking at my teams Microsoft teams is looking at my teams Microsoft teams is looking at my mouse it's like no it's not looking at mouse it's like no it's not looking at mouse it's like no it's not looking at your mouse someone show me show I saw a your mouse someone show me show I saw a your mouse someone show me show I saw a robot on Instagram that someone had that robot on Instagram that someone had that robot on Instagram that someone had that like they could go to lunch and it would like they could go to lunch and it would like they could go to lunch and it would just move their mouse back and forth just move their mouse back and forth just move their mouse back and forth yeah to convince their boss that they yeah to convince their boss that they yeah to convince their boss that they were working like when did we start were working like when did we start were working like when did we start infantilizing like grown ass

infantilizing like grown ass infantilizing like grown ass adults oh heavens this I mean this is a adults oh heavens this I mean this is a adults oh heavens this I mean this is a whole other this is a whole other whole other this is a whole other whole other this is a whole other conversation of it's the treating adults conversation of it's the treating adults conversation of it's the treating adults like children it's the I want to see the like children it's the I want to see the like children it's the I want to see the work I want to see the numbers show me work I want to see the numbers show me work I want to see the numbers show me what you're doing let me know that what you're doing let me know that what you're doing let me know that you're productive when in reality this you're productive when in reality this you're productive when in reality this like you said this wasn't an issue years like you said this wasn't an issue years like you said this wasn't an issue years ago we were showing our work by ago we were showing our work by ago we were showing our work by completing the tasks and getting the completing the tasks and getting the completing the tasks and getting the work done we were making quality work done we were making quality work done we were making quality products we were having conversations products we were having conversations products we were having conversations about them we were building dope stuff about them we were building dope stuff about them we were building dope stuff and people were excited about it and now and people were excited about it and now and people were excited about it and now they're we're so super saturated with they're we're so super saturated with they're we're so super saturated with reporting and managers spend most of reporting and managers spend most of reporting and managers spend most of their time doing that and so for me is their time doing that and so for me is their time doing that and so for me is how do you streamline the process which how do you streamline the process which how do you streamline the process which relieves that tension from your manager relieves that tension from your manager relieves that tension from your manager be having to calibrate you based off of be having to calibrate you based off of be having to calibrate you based off of these numbers and figures that are kind these numbers and figures that are kind these numbers and figures that are kind of ambiguous at the end of the day and of ambiguous at the end of the day and of ambiguous at the end of the day and then also help individual contributors then also help individual contributors then also help individual contributors really feel like they can have that really feel like they can have that really feel like they can have that conversation with their manager and I conversation with their manager and I conversation with their manager and I think that your manager is amazing after think that your manager is amazing after think that your manager is amazing after like you said a decade of working with like you said a decade of working with like you said a decade of working with him in being able to say I want to I him in being able to say I want to I him in being able to say I want to I want the real conversation Scott I don't want the real conversation Scott I don't want the real conversation Scott I don't want the what you think I want to hear I want the what you think I want to hear I want the what you think I want to hear I want the how are you feeling what are want the how are you feeling what are want the how are you feeling what are you doing and that's real management but you doing and that's real management but you doing and that's real management but again we've grown out of that because again we've grown out of that because again we've grown out of that because again it comes down to how am I best again it comes down to how am I best again it comes down to how am I best able to account for the numbers that able to account for the numbers that able to account for the numbers that coincide with the impact that coincide coincide with the impact that coincide coincide with the impact that coincide with the goals that coincide with the with the goals that coincide with the with the goals that coincide with the bottom line yeah yeah there there is bottom line yeah yeah there there is bottom line yeah yeah there there is there is always that manager perception there is always that manager perception there is always that manager perception like and but also here's a here's a a

like and but also here's a here's a a like and but also here's a here's a a way to phrase it and I'm curious what way to phrase it and I'm curious what way to phrase it and I'm curious what you think about this I have talked to you think about this I have talked to you think about this I have talked to people on my team that are more earlier people on my team that are more earlier people on my team that are more earlier in their career used to say junior but in their career used to say junior but in their career used to say junior but they're may be earlier in their career they're may be earlier in their career they're may be earlier in their career and I would and I would and I would say I I have had conversations where say I I have had conversations where say I I have had conversations where I've said it's not on you to have I've said it's not on you to have I've said it's not on you to have empathy for your you know your VP or empathy for your you know your VP or empathy for your you know your VP or whoever the division but in this moment whoever the division but in this moment whoever the division but in this moment I'm asking you to have empathy for this I'm asking you to have empathy for this I'm asking you to have empathy for this person they're not it's not on them to person they're not it's not on them to person they're not it's not on them to do that but I say put yourself in the do that but I say put yourself in the do that but I say put yourself in the mind of Vice President a you know mind of Vice President a you know mind of Vice President a you know developer division whatever what's her developer division whatever what's her developer division whatever what's her uh what's her pressures who's calling uh what's her pressures who's calling uh what's her pressures who's calling her like what keeps her up at night and her like what keeps her up at night and her like what keeps her up at night and I said if you can help your your you I said if you can help your your you I said if you can help your your you know like your VP for your division be know like your VP for your division be know like your VP for your division be successful then you'll be successful successful then you'll be successful successful then you'll be successful absolutely and and I feel like we absolutely and and I feel like we absolutely and and I feel like we stopped thinking about that stuff like stopped thinking about that stuff like stopped thinking about that stuff like when I started 15 20 years ago in in in when I started 15 20 years ago in in in when I started 15 20 years ago in in in management space I would think about management space I would think about management space I would think about like what you know is SAA calling so and like what you know is SAA calling so and like what you know is SAA calling so and so and yelling at them and is that why I so and yelling at them and is that why I so and yelling at them and is that why I currently am having stuff rolling currently am having stuff rolling currently am having stuff rolling downhill but right now there's such a downhill but right now there's such a downhill but right now there's such a there's such a tired like everyone's there's such a tired like everyone's there's such a tired like everyone's tired of capitalism everyone's tired of tired of capitalism everyone's tired of tired of capitalism everyone's tired of everyone's tired that that that empathy everyone's tired that that that empathy everyone's tired that that that empathy going back the other direction is going back the other direction is going back the other direction is increasing that Gap and now you feel increasing that Gap and now you feel increasing that Gap and now you feel like it's a nanny State yeah I I mean like it's a nanny State yeah I I mean like it's a nanny State yeah I I mean this is what has happened or at least this is what has happened or at least this is what has happened or at least what I've observed is communication from what I've observed is communication from what I've observed is communication from the top down has gotten so loose and so the top down has gotten so loose and so the top down has gotten so loose and so just void of actual context and I think

just void of actual context and I think just void of actual context and I think this is a part of that nannying issue this is a part of that nannying issue this is a part of that nannying issue which is if we treat these folks like which is if we treat these folks like which is if we treat these folks like they're not adults and they can't handle they're not adults and they can't handle they're not adults and they can't handle this information in a gingerly way we're this information in a gingerly way we're this information in a gingerly way we're not going to talk to them about it not going to talk to them about it not going to talk to them about it however communication is one of the however communication is one of the however communication is one of the biggest forms of bringing empathy to the biggest forms of bringing empathy to the biggest forms of bringing empathy to the table so if you're not communicating table so if you're not communicating table so if you're not communicating what the business needs are by talking what the business needs are by talking what the business needs are by talking about these about these about these individual at the executive layer so individual at the executive layer so individual at the executive layer so these VPS who have needs and need the these VPS who have needs and need the these VPS who have needs and need the empathy if we're not actually talking empathy if we're not actually talking empathy if we're not actually talking about the problems that they're faced about the problems that they're faced about the problems that they're faced with and there's no ownership from the with and there's no ownership from the with and there's no ownership from the individual contributor or more early St individual contributor or more early St individual contributor or more early St stage career individuals where they stage career individuals where they stage career individuals where they don't feel like they're attached to don't feel like they're attached to don't feel like they're attached to solutioning these problems that's where solutioning these problems that's where solutioning these problems that's where you're getting the dissonance nobody you're getting the dissonance nobody you're getting the dissonance nobody owns anything anymore and therefore they owns anything anymore and therefore they owns anything anymore and therefore they don't care for it as if they own it if don't care for it as if they own it if don't care for it as if they own it if you're not bringing people into the org you're not bringing people into the org you're not bringing people into the org as owners of the actual output or the as owners of the actual output or the as owners of the actual output or the impact or the product then you're not impact or the product then you're not impact or the product then you're not going to get people acting accordingly going to get people acting accordingly going to get people acting accordingly so it's almost chicken in the egg where so it's almost chicken in the egg where so it's almost chicken in the egg where it's do you loosen the strings a little it's do you loosen the strings a little it's do you loosen the strings a little bit and say hey we're going to let you bit and say hey we're going to let you bit and say hey we're going to let you know what's going on really with the know what's going on really with the know what's going on really with the business it's not just about the numbers business it's not just about the numbers business it's not just about the numbers it's about how are we building something it's about how are we building something it's about how are we building something where we're showing care to the product where we're showing care to the product where we're showing care to the product and then folks saying yeah I can I can and then folks saying yeah I can I can and then folks saying yeah I can I can get behind that we've lost a lot of get behind that we've lost a lot of get behind that we've lost a lot of morals in people joining companies morals in people joining companies morals in people joining companies because they care about a product we've because they care about a product we've because they care about a product we've lost a lot of the connection on how they lost a lot of the connection on how they lost a lot of the connection on how they own that particular area of the curation own that particular area of the curation own that particular area of the curation of that product and that's why I think of that product and that's why I think of that product and that's why I think so many people don't care yeah there's a so many people don't care yeah there's a so many people don't care yeah there's a lot you just said a lot that that was a lot you just said a lot that that was a lot you just said a lot that that was a word because there's the people are

word because there's the people are word because there's the people are bouncing from job to job and and I have bouncing from job to job and and I have bouncing from job to job and and I have a bias as a person of a certain a bias as a person of a certain a bias as a person of a certain generation you know I don't know uh if generation you know I don't know uh if generation you know I don't know uh if we are contemporaries uh you look quite we are contemporaries uh you look quite we are contemporaries uh you look quite youthful but let's assume that don't be youthful but let's assume that don't be youthful but let's assume that don't be P by this baby face let's assume that we P by this baby face let's assume that we P by this baby face let's assume that we are within a few years of each other are within a few years of each other are within a few years of each other where I from a eration where you would where I from a eration where you would where I from a eration where you would not think about leaving a company not think about leaving a company not think about leaving a company earlier than 3 to 5 years because earlier than 3 to 5 years because earlier than 3 to 5 years because organizational change takes time y so organizational change takes time y so organizational change takes time y so when I look at someone's resume my this when I look at someone's resume my this when I look at someone's resume my this is a bias that I have a negative bias is a bias that I have a negative bias is a bias that I have a negative bias and I see 18 months at Zoom 18 months at and I see 18 months at Zoom 18 months at and I see 18 months at Zoom 18 months at Google 18 months at Amazon 18 months at Google 18 months at Amazon 18 months at Google 18 months at Amazon 18 months at Netflix that's impressive on its face Netflix that's impressive on its face Netflix that's impressive on its face because like I recognize all those names because like I recognize all those names because like I recognize all those names but what can you really do in 18 months but what can you really do in 18 months but what can you really do in 18 months other things a feature and then but when other things a feature and then but when other things a feature and then but when I tell that bias on a podcast or to a I tell that bias on a podcast or to a I tell that bias on a podcast or to a young person they're like you're you young person they're like you're you young person they're like you're you Boomer no this is how it works now look Boomer no this is how it works now look Boomer no this is how it works now look look at my salary and how it increased look at my salary and how it increased look at my salary and how it increased over time I needed that because I wanted over time I needed that because I wanted over time I needed that because I wanted to get a house because the rent is too to get a house because the rent is too to get a house because the rent is too damn High yep uh and then and then we damn High yep uh and then and then we damn High yep uh and then and then we get into a whole longer conversation but get into a whole longer conversation but get into a whole longer conversation but they've lost all empathy for capitalism they've lost all empathy for capitalism they've lost all empathy for capitalism all empathy for their bosses all empathy all empathy for their bosses all empathy all empathy for their bosses all empathy for the process and now it's a for the process and now it's a for the process and now it's a game and I feel like the gamification of game and I feel like the gamification of game and I feel like the gamification of my career is is not something I'm I'm my career is is not something I'm I'm my career is is not something I'm I'm used to in my generation yeah and I I used to in my generation yeah and I I used to in my generation yeah and I I think there has been huge shift in that think there has been huge shift in that think there has been huge shift in that and I've I'm old enough to have seen and I've I'm old enough to have seen and I've I'm old enough to have seen that shift as well to play both sides of that shift as well to play both sides of that shift as well to play both sides of it where when they create a game by the it where when they create a game by the it where when they create a game by the growing economy and making rent places growing economy and making rent places growing economy and making rent places to live Etc so expensive but then also

to live Etc so expensive but then also to live Etc so expensive but then also just feeding into that by showing how just feeding into that by showing how just feeding into that by showing how job hopping creates higher salaries job hopping creates higher salaries job hopping creates higher salaries people are going to do that they're people are going to do that they're people are going to do that they're going to do what they need to do to get going to do what they need to do to get going to do what they need to do to get their life taken care of and you can't their life taken care of and you can't their life taken care of and you can't fault them for that you can't fault them fault them for that you can't fault them fault them for that you can't fault them for that but so many people do because for that but so many people do because for that but so many people do because they come from this older generation in they come from this older generation in they come from this older generation in leadership and they're saying you know leadership and they're saying you know leadership and they're saying you know 18 months is not enough to do it no it's 18 months is not enough to do it no it's 18 months is not enough to do it no it's not but 18 months is enough time to get not but 18 months is enough time to get not but 18 months is enough time to get really great at some of these skills really great at some of these skills really great at some of these skills that will get you higher to the next that will get you higher to the next that will get you higher to the next level at the next company however what level at the next company however what level at the next company however what we've lost a lot of in that game is we've lost a lot of in that game is we've lost a lot of in that game is people who are empathetic leaders this people who are empathetic leaders this people who are empathetic leaders this is where we go back into that management is where we go back into that management is where we go back into that management of now who are your managers they're the of now who are your managers they're the of now who are your managers they're the people who have executed 18 months at a people who have executed 18 months at a people who have executed 18 months at a company and have gotten really great at company and have gotten really great at company and have gotten really great at their skill set but have not gotten their skill set but have not gotten their skill set but have not gotten great with people management or great with people management or great with people management or communication and therefore you have communication and therefore you have communication and therefore you have people who like the role of management people who like the role of management people who like the role of management and people who also are being managed by and people who also are being managed by and people who also are being managed by these folks who don't like their these folks who don't like their these folks who don't like their managers because of it yeah and that managers because of it yeah and that managers because of it yeah and that also points out that like if I didn't also points out that like if I didn't also points out that like if I didn't expect to be a manager I was suddenly expect to be a manager I was suddenly expect to be a manager I was suddenly thrusted into the job of being a manager thrusted into the job of being a manager thrusted into the job of being a manager I tolerate it and don't like it I also I tolerate it and don't like it I also I tolerate it and don't like it I also might look at the people on my team as might look at the people on my team as might look at the people on my team as my competition then you have a problem my competition then you have a problem my competition then you have a problem where a manager literally thinks they're where a manager literally thinks they're where a manager literally thinks they're directs are their competition are directs are their competition are directs are their competition are competition and that happens so often competition and that happens so often competition and that happens so often it's so unhealthy it is unhealthy but it's so unhealthy it is unhealthy but it's so unhealthy it is unhealthy but here's another thing is because of this here's another thing is because of this here's another thing is because of this climb management is the crown for a lot climb management is the crown for a lot climb management is the crown for a lot of folks in this competition to get to of folks in this competition to get to of folks in this competition to get to the top of their career management the top of their career management the top of their career management carries a badge of honor and this is carries a badge of honor and this is carries a badge of honor and this is both culturally as well as communally both culturally as well as communally both culturally as well as communally and so when you have cultures and

and so when you have cultures and and so when you have cultures and communities who are saying yes I get to communities who are saying yes I get to communities who are saying yes I get to go back to my parents and my family and go back to my parents and my family and go back to my parents and my family and say that I'm prestigious enough in say that I'm prestigious enough in say that I'm prestigious enough in Silicon Valley to say that I'm a manager Silicon Valley to say that I'm a manager Silicon Valley to say that I'm a manager at Google that is at Google that is at Google that is admirable a friend of mine I won't say admirable a friend of mine I won't say admirable a friend of mine I won't say her name but she's uh from she's from uh her name but she's uh from she's from uh her name but she's uh from she's from uh overseas and she's very successful and overseas and she's very successful and overseas and she's very successful and her whole family is successful they all her whole family is successful they all her whole family is successful they all are you know like Road Scholars and they are you know like Road Scholars and they are you know like Road Scholars and they all have fancy titles she has worked for all have fancy titles she has worked for all have fancy titles she has worked for Microsoft for many years and is very Microsoft for many years and is very Microsoft for many years and is very well thought of but when she got the well thought of but when she got the well thought of but when she got the title program title program title program manager her mom was like now you're a manager her mom was like now you're a manager her mom was like now you're a manager and like she a manager like and manager and like she a manager like and manager and like she a manager like and it's like that that held so much weight it's like that that held so much weight it's like that that held so much weight and she's like I've been killing it for and she's like I've been killing it for and she's like I've been killing it for years and now because of this title years and now because of this title years and now because of this title change you're super jazzed about that my change you're super jazzed about that my change you're super jazzed about that my mother did not what I did at work until mother did not what I did at work until mother did not what I did at work until I became a manager and then all of a I became a manager and then all of a I became a manager and then all of a sudden it was like oh my gosh my sudden it was like oh my gosh my sudden it was like oh my gosh my daughter she she actually would lie to daughter she she actually would lie to daughter she she actually would lie to her friends and say my daughter is a her friends and say my daughter is a her friends and say my daughter is a doctor because I I studied in Premed in doctor because I I studied in Premed in doctor because I I studied in Premed in college and she really wanted me to college and she really wanted me to college and she really wanted me to become a doctor because it's a quick become a doctor because it's a quick become a doctor because it's a quick title to be able to say my kid has made title to be able to say my kid has made title to be able to say my kid has made it and coming from the background that I it and coming from the background that I it and coming from the background that I came from that is a big deal to my mom came from that is a big deal to my mom came from that is a big deal to my mom however she would lie to her friends and however she would lie to her friends and however she would lie to her friends and say yeah my daughter's a doctor until say yeah my daughter's a doctor until say yeah my daughter's a doctor until she realized oh she actually is doing she realized oh she actually is doing she realized oh she actually is doing really well yeah in her role even though really well yeah in her role even though really well yeah in her role even though she just got the title of manager okay she just got the title of manager okay she just got the title of manager okay so let's pop off the stack to the so let's pop off the stack to the so let's pop off the stack to the beginning here because if your mom beginning here because if your mom beginning here because if your mom doesn't know what you do but then the doesn't know what you do but then the doesn't know what you do but then the name manager means something yeah but name manager means something yeah but name manager means something yeah but then your directs don't even know what

then your directs don't even know what then your directs don't even know what you do like you're a manager like I you do like you're a manager like I you do like you're a manager like I don't know what my manager does he just don't know what my manager does he just don't know what my manager does he just calls me and gives me a hassle twice a calls me and gives me a hassle twice a calls me and gives me a hassle twice a week then you start hearing about people week then you start hearing about people week then you start hearing about people managing up where they're managing the managing up where they're managing the managing up where they're managing the perception of their manager that gets perception of their manager that gets perception of their manager that gets back to that Gap there is a gap between back to that Gap there is a gap between back to that Gap there is a gap between manager percept manager percept manager percept and employees doing their jobs did you and employees doing their jobs did you and employees doing their jobs did you see the Spotify ad I don't know if it see the Spotify ad I don't know if it see the Spotify ad I don't know if it was real or not it went viral a couple was real or not it went viral a couple was real or not it went viral a couple of days ago it was an ad like in um uh of days ago it was an ad like in um uh of days ago it was an ad like in um uh it's about the Amazon return to office it's about the Amazon return to office it's about the Amazon return to office thing and it said we hire adults yep thing and it said we hire adults yep thing and it said we hire adults yep we're not going back to the office and I we're not going back to the office and I we're not going back to the office and I thought that was a really cool thought that was a really cool thought that was a really cool perspective I I did a whole Tik Tok perspective I I did a whole Tik Tok perspective I I did a whole Tik Tok video on that so the chro Phenomenal video on that so the chro Phenomenal video on that so the chro Phenomenal Woman came full force with the with the Woman came full force with the with the Woman came full force with the with the statement I'm hiring adults because statement I'm hiring adults because statement I'm hiring adults because they're adults right we're not hiring they're adults right we're not hiring they're adults right we're not hiring children here and we're going to treat children here and we're going to treat children here and we're going to treat them like adults and I stand 10 toes them like adults and I stand 10 toes them like adults and I stand 10 toes down on that where you really have to down on that where you really have to down on that where you really have to realize the folks in the room have the realize the folks in the room have the realize the folks in the room have the capacity to hold capacity to hold capacity to hold information that is worthy of critique information that is worthy of critique information that is worthy of critique and that is worthy of conversation and and that is worthy of conversation and and that is worthy of conversation and push back but you also have to build an push back but you also have to build an push back but you also have to build an organization that is strong enough to organization that is strong enough to organization that is strong enough to have that level of contention within the have that level of contention within the have that level of contention within the conversation as well and if you're not conversation as well and if you're not conversation as well and if you're not doing that then that's where you get a doing that then that's where you get a doing that then that's where you get a bunch of this nannying issue and hiring bunch of this nannying issue and hiring bunch of this nannying issue and hiring adults but treating them like children adults but treating them like children adults but treating them like children and yeah there's going to be a few and yeah there's going to be a few and yeah there's going to be a few people who never quite make it up to the people who never quite make it up to the people who never quite make it up to the line of an adult that you work with but line of an adult that you work with but line of an adult that you work with but for the most part if we are treating for the most part if we are treating for the most part if we are treating people like Hey listen you didn't you

people like Hey listen you didn't you people like Hey listen you didn't you know appropriately fill out your PTO know appropriately fill out your PTO know appropriately fill out your PTO work or whatever it is and holding them work or whatever it is and holding them work or whatever it is and holding them accountable for stuff I think accountable for stuff I think accountable for stuff I think accountability is largely lost in accountability is largely lost in accountability is largely lost in corporate especially within Tech and corporate especially within Tech and corporate especially within Tech and that's a part of the story about are we that's a part of the story about are we that's a part of the story about are we hiring adults I struggle with that cuz I hiring adults I struggle with that cuz I hiring adults I struggle with that cuz I know it's it's as you become a manager know it's it's as you become a manager know it's it's as you become a manager if you are a good manager you learn a if you are a good manager you learn a if you are a good manager you learn a lot about yourself so like before when I lot about yourself so like before when I lot about yourself so like before when I called out like this is a bias that I called out like this is a bias that I called out like this is a bias that I carry like I'm literally looking at carry like I'm literally looking at carry like I'm literally looking at myself in the mirror and going that's a myself in the mirror and going that's a myself in the mirror and going that's a problem Hanselman you need to work on problem Hanselman you need to work on problem Hanselman you need to work on that I don't like conflict so I'm like that I don't like conflict so I'm like that I don't like conflict so I'm like this classic Gen X manager where it's this classic Gen X manager where it's this classic Gen X manager where it's like hey buddy um you haven't done your like hey buddy um you haven't done your like hey buddy um you haven't done your expense report you know so I kind of expense report you know so I kind of expense report you know so I kind of need you to do that it's like filling need you to do that it's like filling need you to do that it's like filling out your expense report on time and not out your expense report on time and not out your expense report on time and not having your corporate credit card taken having your corporate credit card taken having your corporate credit card taken away from you or showing up to a meeting away from you or showing up to a meeting away from you or showing up to a meeting on time is a minimum bar I saw someone on time is a minimum bar I saw someone on time is a minimum bar I saw someone at work who had a auto reply or at work who had a auto reply or at work who had a auto reply or something where you know when you chat something where you know when you chat something where you know when you chat someone on teams and they have a little someone on teams and they have a little someone on teams and they have a little status and it said I regularly show up status and it said I regularly show up status and it said I regularly show up late for meetings and I'm like don't late for meetings and I'm like don't late for meetings and I'm like don't tell people that just show up on time tell people that just show up on time tell people that just show up on time for meetings right and also just don't for meetings right and also just don't for meetings right and also just don't do that right and and that's the thing do that right and and that's the thing do that right and and that's the thing is I mean I'm a black woman so when I is I mean I'm a black woman so when I is I mean I'm a black woman so when I get in the when I get in the space you get in the when I get in the space you get in the when I get in the space you can ask my husband my husband's a white can ask my husband my husband's a white can ask my husband my husband's a white man but when he was dating and married man but when he was dating and married man but when he was dating and married me there were many conversations that we me there were many conversations that we me there were many conversations that we had where he's like I'm just not used to had where he's like I'm just not used to had where he's like I'm just not used to this level of directness and I am so this level of directness and I am so this level of directness and I am so sorry but in my household growing up we sorry but in my household growing up we sorry but in my household growing up we did not get the you know dishes are in

did not get the you know dishes are in did not get the you know dishes are in the sink it's okay we'll take care of the sink it's okay we'll take care of the sink it's okay we'll take care of them tomorrow now my mom was like I've them tomorrow now my mom was like I've them tomorrow now my mom was like I've worked three jobs all week and their worked three jobs all week and their worked three jobs all week and their dishes in the sink that y'all put in dishes in the sink that y'all put in dishes in the sink that y'all put in there you need to clean them and I just there you need to clean them and I just there you need to clean them and I just think that that's just a part of running think that that's just a part of running think that that's just a part of running a harmonious household is nobody wants a harmonious household is nobody wants a harmonious household is nobody wants stick sh to the sink with dirty dishes stick sh to the sink with dirty dishes stick sh to the sink with dirty dishes in it nobody can do the work and it's in it nobody can do the work and it's in it nobody can do the work and it's the same thing in the office which is the same thing in the office which is the same thing in the office which is Hey listen you want to get paid on time Hey listen you want to get paid on time Hey listen you want to get paid on time and I want you to get paid on time and and I want you to get paid on time and and I want you to get paid on time and therefore we both have a commitment and therefore we both have a commitment and therefore we both have a commitment and obligation to do the things necessary obligation to do the things necessary obligation to do the things necessary for that to happen for that to happen for that to happen so that is that is a very funny but also so that is that is a very funny but also so that is that is a very funny but also very true kind of cultural very true kind of cultural very true kind of cultural difference uh like my my dad and I mean difference uh like my my dad and I mean difference uh like my my dad and I mean I'm a very West Coast Portland kind of I'm a very West Coast Portland kind of I'm a very West Coast Portland kind of like plaid shirt Lumberjack type and you like plaid shirt Lumberjack type and you like plaid shirt Lumberjack type and you know it tomorrow man that's cool you know it tomorrow man that's cool you know it tomorrow man that's cool you know I'm kind of like a Northwest know I'm kind of like a Northwest know I'm kind of like a Northwest Matthew mccon so but when my wife sees Matthew mccon so but when my wife sees Matthew mccon so but when my wife sees like two Amazon boxes that's too too like two Amazon boxes that's too too like two Amazon boxes that's too too many we're going recy we're going to many we're going recy we're going to many we're going recy we're going to recycling and like so she'll but the recycling and like so she'll but the recycling and like so she'll but the problem is she'll do it when we're doing problem is she'll do it when we're doing problem is she'll do it when we're doing something else like we're going to something else like we're going to something else like we're going to dinner uh we're stopping by recycling dinner uh we're stopping by recycling dinner uh we're stopping by recycling first you know and it's like no I want first you know and it's like no I want first you know and it's like no I want to go to dinner no no we this needs to to go to dinner no no we this needs to to go to dinner no no we this needs to be done it needs to be done it's there be done it needs to be done it's there be done it needs to be done it's there are dishes in the sink and that I think are dishes in the sink and that I think are dishes in the sink and that I think um goes into my management style um goes into my management style um goes into my management style where I'm like yeah it's fine you know I where I'm like yeah it's fine you know I where I'm like yeah it's fine you know I just need to start telling people my just need to start telling people my just need to start telling people my expectations absolutely and I just worry expectations absolutely and I just worry expectations absolutely and I just worry that they're going to be sad and I'm that they're going to be sad and I'm that they're going to be sad and I'm like I don't want you sad sadness so me like I don't want you sad sadness so me like I don't want you sad sadness so me becoming a parent I used to babysit when becoming a parent I used to babysit when becoming a parent I used to babysit when I was a kid for extra money but me I was a kid for extra money but me I was a kid for extra money but me becoming a parent really put all of this

becoming a parent really put all of this becoming a parent really put all of this in perspective in perspective in perspective where in especially in the workplace where in especially in the workplace where in especially in the workplace people talk about feelings not being people talk about feelings not being people talk about feelings not being allowed in the workplace and I largely allowed in the workplace and I largely allowed in the workplace and I largely disagree I think that again with this disagree I think that again with this disagree I think that again with this adult conversation is about the maturity adult conversation is about the maturity adult conversation is about the maturity of being able to handle adult feelings of being able to handle adult feelings of being able to handle adult feelings which is if you're sad listen I hear you which is if you're sad listen I hear you which is if you're sad listen I hear you I'm I'm a huge mirrorer when it comes to I'm I'm a huge mirrorer when it comes to I'm I'm a huge mirrorer when it comes to management I hear you Scott I know management I hear you Scott I know management I hear you Scott I know you're sad and that really sucks and I you're sad and that really sucks and I you're sad and that really sucks and I need you to be responsible for these need you to be responsible for these need you to be responsible for these things you have plenty of space in this things you have plenty of space in this things you have plenty of space in this conversation to be sad and you're also conversation to be sad and you're also conversation to be sad and you're also committed to being accountable to your committed to being accountable to your committed to being accountable to your actions there's it's not either or this actions there's it's not either or this actions there's it's not either or this isn't a zero sum game this is you can isn't a zero sum game this is you can isn't a zero sum game this is you can hold big feelings and you can be hold big feelings and you can be hold big feelings and you can be responsible yeah the the what the role responsible yeah the the what the role responsible yeah the the what the role is of feelings at work has been is of feelings at work has been is of feelings at work has been interesting as we watch we're starting interesting as we watch we're starting interesting as we watch we're starting to have a conversation at work about to have a conversation at work about to have a conversation at work about generational leadership where I've got generational leadership where I've got generational leadership where I've got maybe five years left and the the the maybe five years left and the the the maybe five years left and the the the 25y old that I'm working with today 25y old that I'm working with today 25y old that I'm working with today they're going to be me like they don't they're going to be me like they don't they're going to be me like they don't get that all they have to do is stay get that all they have to do is stay get that all they have to do is stay here for 10 years and they'll be the here for 10 years and they'll be the here for 10 years and they'll be the boss and I will be in the ground and uh boss and I will be in the ground and uh boss and I will be in the ground and uh they're going to need to like well maybe they're going to need to like well maybe they're going to need to like well maybe not on the ground but like I'll be like not on the ground but like I'll be like not on the ground but like I'll be like lying on a meadow on the ground um but lying on a meadow on the ground um but lying on a meadow on the ground um but you know what I mean like I'll be gone you know what I mean like I'll be gone you know what I mean like I'll be gone and they'll be in charge so like you and they'll be in charge so like you and they'll be in charge so like you have to look at the 25-year-old who have to look at the 25-year-old who have to look at the 25-year-old who works for you as your future boss or as works for you as your future boss or as works for you as your future boss or as the future leader of the entire company the future leader of the entire company the future leader of the entire company yeah yeah who's the next SAA and um if yeah yeah who's the next SAA and um if yeah yeah who's the next SAA and um if we can't have conversations where we say

we can't have conversations where we say we can't have conversations where we say hey that report you did kind of sucked hey that report you did kind of sucked hey that report you did kind of sucked like like like tell you a story so I like like like tell you a story so I like like like tell you a story so I sometimes when you're sad at work you sometimes when you're sad at work you sometimes when you're sad at work you out you you kind of like act out and my out you you kind of like act out and my out you you kind of like act out and my way of acting out is animated gifts in way of acting out is animated gifts in way of acting out is animated gifts in teams meetings uh and sometimes you just teams meetings uh and sometimes you just teams meetings uh and sometimes you just drop an absolute Banger and you know drop an absolute Banger and you know drop an absolute Banger and you know like I'm trying to focus on some like I'm trying to focus on some like I'm trying to focus on some important quarterly thing but like I I I important quarterly thing but like I I I important quarterly thing but like I I I put in an animated gift that I think was put in an animated gift that I think was put in an animated gift that I think was Michael Jackson eating popcorn or Michael Jackson eating popcorn or Michael Jackson eating popcorn or whatever because these two managers were whatever because these two managers were whatever because these two managers were fighting and my my VP chats me and she fighting and my my VP chats me and she fighting and my my VP chats me and she just goes not helpful yep and I was like just goes not helpful yep and I was like just goes not helpful yep and I was like oh like was the 12 likes that I got on oh like was the 12 likes that I got on oh like was the 12 likes that I got on that animated gift worth the slap that I that animated gift worth the slap that I that animated gift worth the slap that I just got from my VP and I don't like just got from my VP and I don't like just got from my VP and I don't like feel bad in the sense of like she was feel bad in the sense of like she was feel bad in the sense of like she was right it was not helpful it did not move right it was not helpful it did not move right it was not helpful it did not move things forward but is it g to am I am I things forward but is it g to am I am I things forward but is it g to am I am I going to write a medium post about my going to write a medium post about my going to write a medium post about my feelings about how I can't bring my full feelings about how I can't bring my full feelings about how I can't bring my full self to work no I put an inappropriate self to work no I put an inappropriate self to work no I put an inappropriate animated gift into a teams meeting at animated gift into a teams meeting at animated gift into a teams meeting at the wrong time and I took that as a the wrong time and I took that as a the wrong time and I took that as a moment to learn maybe tone the gifts moment to learn maybe tone the gifts moment to learn maybe tone the gifts down first off you and my husband are down first off you and my husband are down first off you and my husband are the same because I love how the likes on the same because I love how the likes on the same because I love how the likes on the gift always become the argument well the gift always become the argument well the gift always become the argument well you know 17 people liked it so I don't you know 17 people liked it so I don't you know 17 people liked it so I don't think that was too far far off and I I I think that was too far far off and I I I think that was too far far off and I I I I think there's room for both too though I think there's room for both too though I think there's room for both too though I think I don't know for me it's never I think I don't know for me it's never I think I don't know for me it's never been about keeping professionalism at been about keeping professionalism at been about keeping professionalism at high scale again this comes back to a high scale again this comes back to a high scale again this comes back to a cultural thing for me where cultural thing for me where cultural thing for me where professionalism has been used as such a professionalism has been used as such a professionalism has been used as such a weapon in the context of career and weapon in the context of career and weapon in the context of career and corporate for such a long time we're all

corporate for such a long time we're all corporate for such a long time we're all just again we're people and we have just again we're people and we have just again we're people and we have feelings and we're Petty sometimes I'm feelings and we're Petty sometimes I'm feelings and we're Petty sometimes I'm one of the pettiest mfers you're going one of the pettiest mfers you're going one of the pettiest mfers you're going to meet right I love being petty and I to meet right I love being petty and I to meet right I love being petty and I also love showing up and getting my job also love showing up and getting my job also love showing up and getting my job done and if there's a way for me to mix done and if there's a way for me to mix done and if there's a way for me to mix those two things I'm going to do it and those two things I'm going to do it and those two things I'm going to do it and I'm going to make it fun and sometimes I'm going to make it fun and sometimes I'm going to make it fun and sometimes I'll make it sharp for the people who I'll make it sharp for the people who I'll make it sharp for the people who deserve it yeah you know um I someone deserve it yeah you know um I someone deserve it yeah you know um I someone said that it's a it's level privilege said that it's a it's level privilege said that it's a it's level privilege I've talked about level privilege like I've talked about level privilege like I've talked about level privilege like when you unpack all the different when you unpack all the different when you unpack all the different privileges but having a certain level privileges but having a certain level privileges but having a certain level like having senior in your name oh yeah like having senior in your name oh yeah like having senior in your name oh yeah means your emails get like done faster means your emails get like done faster means your emails get like done faster arguably you know people like check arguably you know people like check arguably you know people like check people spell check when you get like the people spell check when you get like the people spell check when you get like the title VP I get very few emails with title VP I get very few emails with title VP I get very few emails with spelling errors oh yeah because people spelling errors oh yeah because people spelling errors oh yeah because people are like thinking about that but I try are like thinking about that but I try are like thinking about that but I try to like remind them that I'm a human to like remind them that I'm a human to like remind them that I'm a human with a little animated gift or an emoji with a little animated gift or an emoji with a little animated gift or an emoji or just like a little moment where it's or just like a little moment where it's or just like a little moment where it's like hey actual human here it's okay uh like hey actual human here it's okay uh like hey actual human here it's okay uh someone invited me to give a speech someone invited me to give a speech someone invited me to give a speech somewhere and I could have like replied somewhere and I could have like replied somewhere and I could have like replied with a very much like thank you so much with a very much like thank you so much with a very much like thank you so much for your invitation I'm happy to but I for your invitation I'm happy to but I for your invitation I'm happy to but I just replied with an animated gift of um just replied with an animated gift of um just replied with an animated gift of um James R Jones saying totes M goats Y and James R Jones saying totes M goats Y and James R Jones saying totes M goats Y and that just immediately let them know like that just immediately let them know like that just immediately let them know like it's going to be okay whatever we're it's going to be okay whatever we're it's going to be okay whatever we're going to do together this work is going going to do together this work is going going to do together this work is going to be successful I'm still going to be to be successful I'm still going to be to be successful I'm still going to be professional but I also wanted them to professional but I also wanted them to professional but I also wanted them to know I'm a human being yeah well in this know I'm a human being yeah well in this know I'm a human being yeah well in this again in this communication game like again in this communication game like again in this communication game like you said the level I and I I talked you said the level I and I I talked you said the level I and I I talked about this largely uh again on Tik Tok about this largely uh again on Tik Tok about this largely uh again on Tik Tok y'all can find me on Tik Tok but how as y'all can find me on Tik Tok but how as y'all can find me on Tik Tok but how as a black woman going up the ranks in the a black woman going up the ranks in the a black woman going up the ranks in the corporate sector and then getting to

corporate sector and then getting to corporate sector and then getting to this point where they start to control this point where they start to control this point where they start to control your language they want you to speak a your language they want you to speak a your language they want you to speak a very specific type of talk that is very specific type of talk that is very specific type of talk that is synonymous with I'm a high level synonymous with I'm a high level synonymous with I'm a high level executive at a company and I lost my executive at a company and I lost my executive at a company and I lost my identity making that climb to the point identity making that climb to the point identity making that climb to the point where I didn't feel relatable to a lot where I didn't feel relatable to a lot where I didn't feel relatable to a lot of people more specifically to people of people more specifically to people of people more specifically to people who look like me and through this who look like me and through this who look like me and through this process of starting my own company it's process of starting my own company it's process of starting my own company it's coming back to the realness of again coming back to the realness of again coming back to the realness of again we're just people and not only that I we're just people and not only that I we're just people and not only that I want to invite you along for this want to invite you along for this want to invite you along for this journey called life with me and not to journey called life with me and not to journey called life with me and not to get all prints on everybody but really get all prints on everybody but really get all prints on everybody but really we're in this game once and we're all we're in this game once and we're all we're in this game once and we're all trying to get to the end point can we trying to get to the end point can we trying to get to the end point can we help each other out can we build a help each other out can we build a help each other out can we build a community around it and I think the community around it and I think the community around it and I think the fastest to find your community is fastest to find your community is fastest to find your community is through the words that you speak and through the words that you speak and through the words that you speak and that could be at work or otherwise but that could be at work or otherwise but that could be at work or otherwise but at work it's so much harder and I think at work it's so much harder and I think at work it's so much harder and I think this is why people are lonely and they this is why people are lonely and they this is why people are lonely and they hate their jobs and they're not excited hate their jobs and they're not excited hate their jobs and they're not excited about it is because we've lost the about it is because we've lost the about it is because we've lost the interpersonal connection of people and interpersonal connection of people and interpersonal connection of people and that's just not from a physical return that's just not from a physical return that's just not from a physical return to office which is a whole other to office which is a whole other to office which is a whole other argument but it's how do I make this argument but it's how do I make this argument but it's how do I make this less formal and just communicate with less formal and just communicate with less formal and just communicate with people like we're people like we're people like we're people that like like we're all in this people that like like we're all in this people that like like we're all in this thing how can we make it less horrible thing how can we make it less horrible thing how can we make it less horrible right and and it's small things we can right and and it's small things we can right and and it's small things we can do and you can drop the occasional do and you can drop the occasional do and you can drop the occasional animated gift and be professional and animated gift and be professional and animated gift and be professional and and it's it's about context it's all the and it's it's about context it's all the and it's it's about context it's all the unspoken things and and to your point unspoken things and and to your point unspoken things and and to your point about you know showing up with a with a about you know showing up with a with a about you know showing up with a with a with a different Identity or an identity with a different Identity or an identity with a different Identity or an identity that isn't like the default identity you that isn't like the default identity you that isn't like the default identity you get into conversations around like get into conversations around like get into conversations around like respectability politics and it's like oh respectability politics and it's like oh respectability politics and it's like oh yeah when does code switching become

yeah when does code switching become yeah when does code switching become just being a phony and getting a silk just being a phony and getting a silk just being a phony and getting a silk press and going to work in a suit and press and going to work in a suit and press and going to work in a suit and then going home and being a totally then going home and being a totally then going home and being a totally different person so like who who are you different person so like who who are you different person so like who who are you even right I have the privilege to try even right I have the privilege to try even right I have the privilege to try to be the same guy at all times but I am to be the same guy at all times but I am to be the same guy at all times but I am noticing that my Gen X Northwest kind of noticing that my Gen X Northwest kind of noticing that my Gen X Northwest kind of like chill Vibe isn't always appropriate like chill Vibe isn't always appropriate like chill Vibe isn't always appropriate and I'm having to like do a little bit and I'm having to like do a little bit and I'm having to like do a little bit of like code switching myself into like of like code switching myself into like of like code switching myself into like professional business person who looks professional business person who looks professional business person who looks like he knows what he's doing but isn't like he knows what he's doing but isn't like he knows what he's doing but isn't always appropriate for why right like always appropriate for why right like always appropriate for why right like this is something so interesting because this is something so interesting because this is something so interesting because I have I know a number of Executives who I have I know a number of Executives who I have I know a number of Executives who we had a music room at one of the we had a music room at one of the we had a music room at one of the companies worked at and they would go companies worked at and they would go companies worked at and they would go and they Jam in the music room and they and they Jam in the music room and they and they Jam in the music room and they would let that quirky site out and that would let that quirky site out and that would let that quirky site out and that was a part of their identity H and that was a part of their identity H and that was a part of their identity H and that to me was the privilege was you get to to me was the privilege was you get to to me was the privilege was you get to be that person as the the older be that person as the the older be that person as the the older executive and you get to show up and say executive and you get to show up and say executive and you get to show up and say you know this is just me hanging with my you know this is just me hanging with my you know this is just me hanging with my friends and playing music whereas there friends and playing music whereas there friends and playing music whereas there is that leveling privilege where if is that leveling privilege where if is that leveling privilege where if you're in between that or you are an you're in between that or you are an you're in between that or you are an identity that is less present in the identity that is less present in the identity that is less present in the space you have to be more buttoned up space you have to be more buttoned up space you have to be more buttoned up and inform and inform and inform yeah if you were uh if if it's a bunch yeah if you were uh if if it's a bunch yeah if you were uh if if it's a bunch of VPS and then a random pm2 and we're of VPS and then a random pm2 and we're of VPS and then a random pm2 and we're all playing Rock Band and you can maybe all playing Rock Band and you can maybe all playing Rock Band and you can maybe talk crap or like start playing the talk crap or like start playing the talk crap or like start playing the dozens and you know say something funny dozens and you know say something funny dozens and you know say something funny and insult the and insult the and insult the VP in that context for a moment it might VP in that context for a moment it might VP in that context for a moment it might work but you could cross a line very work but you could cross a line very work but you could cross a line very quickly and then if you're not careful quickly and then if you're not careful quickly and then if you're not careful your rock band familiarity May slip into

your rock band familiarity May slip into your rock band familiarity May slip into a status report meeting and exactly a status report meeting and exactly a status report meeting and exactly that's a challenge that's a huge that's a challenge that's a huge that's a challenge that's a huge challenge oh heavens the complexity challenge oh heavens the complexity challenge oh heavens the complexity right well and this is what I'm trying right well and this is what I'm trying right well and this is what I'm trying to get my 17-year-old and my 19-year-old to get my 17-year-old and my 19-year-old to get my 17-year-old and my 19-year-old to understand is that humans are squishy to understand is that humans are squishy to understand is that humans are squishy and communication is challenging and the and communication is challenging and the and communication is challenging and the way that you learn to speak this way that you learn to speak this way that you learn to speak this language is by speaking it trying it and language is by speaking it trying it and language is by speaking it trying it and shaking hands and look people in the eye shaking hands and look people in the eye shaking hands and look people in the eye and all that kind of stuff and uh it is and all that kind of stuff and uh it is and all that kind of stuff and uh it is very challenging to this point in my very challenging to this point in my very challenging to this point in my life there has been very little and I life there has been very little and I life there has been very little and I mean very little like 99.9% of things mean very little like 99.9% of things mean very little like 99.9% of things that I have not been able to have a that I have not been able to have a that I have not been able to have a conversation out of and what I mean by conversation out of and what I mean by conversation out of and what I mean by that is if we're teaching folks that that is if we're teaching folks that that is if we're teaching folks that communication is a method of being able communication is a method of being able communication is a method of being able to build stronger relationships even to build stronger relationships even to build stronger relationships even when faults happen apologies go a long when faults happen apologies go a long when faults happen apologies go a long way acknowledging people go a long way way acknowledging people go a long way way acknowledging people go a long way recognizing privileges in the room go a recognizing privileges in the room go a recognizing privileges in the room go a long way but I do think that some people long way but I do think that some people long way but I do think that some people are uh adverse to having these real are uh adverse to having these real are uh adverse to having these real honest conversations about who's in the honest conversations about who's in the honest conversations about who's in the room with them what's going on around room with them what's going on around room with them what's going on around them uh what identity plays what them uh what identity plays what them uh what identity plays what identity plays a part in the identity plays a part in the identity plays a part in the conversation uh and I think we can all conversation uh and I think we can all conversation uh and I think we can all be better conversationalists just be better conversationalists just be better conversationalists just getting to know one another especially getting to know one another especially getting to know one another especially in corporate it's very very true well in corporate it's very very true well in corporate it's very very true well thanks for hanging out with me for this thanks for hanging out with me for this thanks for hanging out with me for this kind of wide reaching and rambly uh kind of wide reaching and rambly uh kind of wide reaching and rambly uh podcast I learned a lot about how you podcast I learned a lot about how you podcast I learned a lot about how you think and I know that you're bringing think and I know that you're bringing think and I know that you're bringing this expertise and this uh this level of this expertise and this uh this level of this expertise and this uh this level of attention to detail to the work that attention to detail to the work that attention to detail to the work that you're doing at Counterpoint folks can you're doing at Counterpoint folks can you're doing at Counterpoint folks can check it out at c n

check it out at c n check it out at c n TPT counter without the e pt. TPT counter without the e pt. TPT counter without the e pt. uh and learn about what's going on there uh and learn about what's going on there uh and learn about what's going on there they've got a newsletter and you can they've got a newsletter and you can they've got a newsletter and you can download the app from the App Store and download the app from the App Store and download the app from the App Store and explore uh what Ash and her team are explore uh what Ash and her team are explore uh what Ash and her team are doing there thanks so much thank you doing there thanks so much thank you doing there thanks so much thank you this has been such a pleasure this has this has been such a pleasure this has this has been such a pleasure this has been another episode of Hansel minuts been another episode of Hansel minuts been another episode of Hansel minuts and we'll see you again next week and we'll see you again next week and we'll see you again next week [Music]