Life as an Indie Developer with Joseph Finney

hi I'm Scott Hanselman this is another hi I'm Scott Hanselman this is another episode of Hansel minutes today I'm episode of Hansel minutes today I'm episode of Hansel minutes today I'm chatting with Joe finny he's a Microsoft chatting with Joe finny he's a Microsoft chatting with Joe finny he's a Microsoft MVP a product owner he makes apps former MVP a product owner he makes apps former MVP a product owner he makes apps former mechanical engineer this is a person mechanical engineer this is a person mechanical engineer this is a person with a full-time job but a plan to make with a full-time job but a plan to make with a full-time job but a plan to make his side hustle his full-time job how his side hustle his full-time job how his side hustle his full-time job how are you Joe I'm doing great so you are you Joe I'm doing great so you are you Joe I'm doing great so you describe yourself to me as an indie App describe yourself to me as an indie App describe yourself to me as an indie App Maker and we love indie games we love Maker and we love indie games we love Maker and we love indie games we love independent this independent that Indie independent this independent that Indie independent this independent that Indie is the word and it's it's the great word is the word and it's it's the great word is the word and it's it's the great word now you have a full-time job you have a now you have a full-time job you have a now you have a full-time job you have a W2 good oldfashioned American go to work W2 good oldfashioned American go to work W2 good oldfashioned American go to work go home doing a thing but you code at go home doing a thing but you code at go home doing a thing but you code at night too what why would you why would night too what why would you why would night too what why would you why would you do such a you do such a you do such a thing yeah that's a it's a good question thing yeah that's a it's a good question thing yeah that's a it's a good question so I was a mechanical engineer for 10 so I was a mechanical engineer for 10 so I was a mechanical engineer for 10 years and the whole whole time I was years and the whole whole time I was years and the whole whole time I was just kind of obsessed with software so I just kind of obsessed with software so I just kind of obsessed with software so I just kept thinking about it and I was just kept thinking about it and I was just kept thinking about it and I was obsessed with like the cad programs I obsessed with like the cad programs I obsessed with like the cad programs I would use and the engineering programs I would use and the engineering programs I would use and the engineering programs I would use and I just kept thinking you would use and I just kept thinking you would use and I just kept thinking you know this should be over here and that know this should be over here and that know this should be over here and that should do this and this should do this should do this and this should do this should do this and this should do this and I was like the Excel wizard at work and I was like the Excel wizard at work and I was like the Excel wizard at work so everyone was you know they've come to so everyone was you know they've come to so everyone was you know they've come to me when they're like hey can I do this me when they're like hey can I do this me when they're like hey can I do this and I'm like you're describing a and I'm like you're describing a and I'm like you're describing a database uh yeah let's do it in database uh yeah let's do it in database uh yeah let's do it in Excel and then there was a problem that Excel and then there was a problem that Excel and then there was a problem that was too big for excel sell and I made a was too big for excel sell and I made a was too big for excel sell and I made a little piece of software it was actually little piece of software it was actually little piece of software it was actually for like a for like a for like a vacation Lottery waited to balance kind vacation Lottery waited to balance kind vacation Lottery waited to balance kind of seniority Plus getting the request in of seniority Plus getting the request in of seniority Plus getting the request in on time so it's kind of a lot of on time so it's kind of a lot of on time so it's kind of a lot of different complicated things and then

different complicated things and then different complicated things and then saying okay who's going to get the day saying okay who's going to get the day saying okay who's going to get the day off so the factory can stay running and off so the factory can stay running and off so the factory can stay running and after I made that I was like okay this after I made that I was like okay this after I made that I was like okay this is really cool and I really really like is really cool and I really really like is really cool and I really really like this and there's a lot more resources this and there's a lot more resources this and there's a lot more resources out there that I could just Google and out there that I could just Google and out there that I could just Google and figure it out so that was kind of the figure it out so that was kind of the figure it out so that was kind of the the hook and then from there I made a the hook and then from there I made a the hook and then from there I made a little Windows Phone app and then I was little Windows Phone app and then I was little Windows Phone app and then I was like I had a touchscreen laptop at the like I had a touchscreen laptop at the like I had a touchscreen laptop at the time and I was like man I should be able time and I was like man I should be able time and I was like man I should be able to like interact with my calendar the to like interact with my calendar the to like interact with my calendar the way that I do with my my paper calendar way that I do with my my paper calendar way that I do with my my paper calendar on my wall in my cubicle so that's where on my wall in my cubicle so that's where on my wall in my cubicle so that's where I had the idea for an ink I had the idea for an ink I had the idea for an ink calendar and I made that and it was a calendar and I made that and it was a calendar and I made that and it was a uwp app and slowly over the next I think uwp app and slowly over the next I think uwp app and slowly over the next I think it was like seven years now I've been it was like seven years now I've been it was like seven years now I've been kind of building these apps and figuring kind of building these apps and figuring kind of building these apps and figuring out what I'm going to do but they all out what I'm going to do but they all out what I'm going to do but they all kind of come from that there's a problem kind of come from that there's a problem kind of come from that there's a problem that I'm thinking about and I just want that I'm thinking about and I just want that I'm thinking about and I just want to fix it try a little nugget of to fix it try a little nugget of to fix it try a little nugget of something and then evolve it and evolve something and then evolve it and evolve something and then evolve it and evolve it and over the past couple years I'm it and over the past couple years I'm it and over the past couple years I'm like okay let's get more serious about like okay let's get more serious about like okay let's get more serious about this uh software can be a living let's this uh software can be a living let's this uh software can be a living let's try to make it happen when you do these try to make it happen when you do these try to make it happen when you do these kind of small to middle-sized apps uh is kind of small to middle-sized apps uh is kind of small to middle-sized apps uh is it something you're doing entirely by it something you're doing entirely by it something you're doing entirely by yourself do you have a designer do you yourself do you have a designer do you yourself do you have a designer do you ever go and ask like go on Fiverr and ever go and ask like go on Fiverr and ever go and ask like go on Fiverr and hire people to help out or is it really hire people to help out or is it really hire people to help out or is it really like the app the size of the app and its like the app the size of the app and its like the app the size of the app and its scope is limited to one what one person scope is limited to one what one person scope is limited to one what one person can do it's a one pizza team it's a half can do it's a one pizza team it's a half can do it's a one pizza team it's a half a pizza team it's just

a pizza team it's just a pizza team it's just me um I've thought about it I think me um I've thought about it I think me um I've thought about it I think there's a couple of challenges with like there's a couple of challenges with like there's a couple of challenges with like hiring people out obviously finding the hiring people out obviously finding the hiring people out obviously finding the right person like that's kind of the right person like that's kind of the right person like that's kind of the hardest part always is like the amount hardest part always is like the amount hardest part always is like the amount of time it takes and that's the number of time it takes and that's the number of time it takes and that's the number one thing about me and the work that I one thing about me and the work that I one thing about me and the work that I do is it's all about time and if I'm do is it's all about time and if I'm do is it's all about time and if I'm going to spend time looking for someone going to spend time looking for someone going to spend time looking for someone I could spend months and months looking I could spend months and months looking I could spend months and months looking for the right person who has the right for the right person who has the right for the right person who has the right skill set and nothing got done in that skill set and nothing got done in that skill set and nothing got done in that amount of time and I could have just amount of time and I could have just amount of time and I could have just done it myself so is the design going to done it myself so is the design going to done it myself so is the design going to suffer a little bit Yeah is the you know suffer a little bit Yeah is the you know suffer a little bit Yeah is the you know architecture and the coding going to architecture and the coding going to architecture and the coding going to suffer yeah is it going to be good suffer yeah is it going to be good suffer yeah is it going to be good enough I think so hopefully what about enough I think so hopefully what about enough I think so hopefully what about the psych what I call the psychic weight the psych what I call the psychic weight the psych what I call the psychic weight of the apps you've got an outdoor of the apps you've got an outdoor of the apps you've got an outdoor fitness app that's on you know Google fitness app that's on you know Google fitness app that's on you know Google Play and App Store so that's a Play and App Store so that's a Play and App Store so that's a crossplatform app you've got apps in the crossplatform app you've got apps in the crossplatform app you've got apps in the in the Microsoft store some of them are in the Microsoft store some of them are in the Microsoft store some of them are userfriendly apps that are really userfriendly apps that are really userfriendly apps that are really polished like ink calendar some are you polished like ink calendar some are you polished like ink calendar some are you know quick and dirty utilities like text know quick and dirty utilities like text know quick and dirty utilities like text grab that call win32 apis but they all grab that call win32 apis but they all grab that call win32 apis but they all are out there and they exist they are are out there and they exist they are are out there and they exist they are always getting users every day and always getting users every day and always getting users every day and they're maybe getting bugs every day they're maybe getting bugs every day they're maybe getting bugs every day from users that might not be very like from users that might not be very like from users that might not be very like respectful of the dollar or the or the respectful of the dollar or the or the respectful of the dollar or the or the free that they spent you know to to get free that they spent you know to to get free that they spent you know to to get that app doesn't that weigh on you that app doesn't that weigh on you that app doesn't that weigh on you absolutely yeah it's definitely a weird absolutely yeah it's definitely a weird absolutely yeah it's definitely a weird thing I mean I think it's a interesting thing I mean I think it's a interesting thing I mean I think it's a interesting relationship like the economics and the relationship like the economics and the relationship like the economics and the energy and the amount of time that energy and the amount of time that energy and the amount of time that Indies in particular spend and like the Indies in particular spend and like the Indies in particular spend and like the pressure they put on themselves to pressure they put on themselves to pressure they put on themselves to deliver something amazing it's high and

deliver something amazing it's high and deliver something amazing it's high and it can be a lot but this is gonna this it can be a lot but this is gonna this it can be a lot but this is gonna this is going to be a roundabout way of is going to be a roundabout way of is going to be a roundabout way of answering the question um but whenever a answering the question um but whenever a answering the question um but whenever a big like Tech outages big like Tech outages big like Tech outages happen like we had recently or I use happen like we had recently or I use happen like we had recently or I use software that Microsoft puts out or software that Microsoft puts out or software that Microsoft puts out or apple puts out or adobe and they have apple puts out or adobe and they have apple puts out or adobe and they have bugs in them and they have you know bugs in them and they have you know bugs in them and they have you know issues and I think it's going to be okay issues and I think it's going to be okay issues and I think it's going to be okay you know as long as the bug doesn't you know as long as the bug doesn't you know as long as the bug doesn't totally wreck something you know as long totally wreck something you know as long totally wreck something you know as long as you're not going to lose data um as you're not going to lose data um as you're not going to lose data um that's the biggest concern really in my that's the biggest concern really in my that's the biggest concern really in my mind is that somebody especially in mind is that somebody especially in mind is that somebody especially in calendar that they would be working for calendar that they would be working for calendar that they would be working for a long time having these journals and a long time having these journals and a long time having these journals and then it all goes away somehow so you're then it all goes away somehow so you're then it all goes away somehow so you're you're prioritizing losing data bugs you're prioritizing losing data bugs you're prioritizing losing data bugs absolutely yeah but also I'm just I just absolutely yeah but also I'm just I just absolutely yeah but also I'm just I just have to remind myself that I'm not a have to remind myself that I'm not a have to remind myself that I'm not a huge tech company and so another part of huge tech company and so another part of huge tech company and so another part of that is kind of putting that messaging that is kind of putting that messaging that is kind of putting that messaging in the App instead of saying like the in the App instead of saying like the in the App instead of saying like the team is evaluating this I say I am like team is evaluating this I say I am like team is evaluating this I say I am like it's just me so I think that can kind of it's just me so I think that can kind of it's just me so I think that can kind of hurt when people are like I need a big hurt when people are like I need a big hurt when people are like I need a big company behind this but I'm like it it company behind this but I'm like it it company behind this but I'm like it it really is just me and I'm not trying to really is just me and I'm not trying to really is just me and I'm not trying to like pretend that there's you know a big like pretend that there's you know a big like pretend that there's you know a big company behind this mhm but also just company behind this mhm but also just company behind this mhm but also just using a lot of my apps over and over and using a lot of my apps over and over and using a lot of my apps over and over and over like I use all of the apps that I over like I use all of the apps that I over like I use all of the apps that I make and I think that really helps um make and I think that really helps um make and I think that really helps um but it it is definitely stressful to but it it is definitely stressful to but it it is definitely stressful to think about that bad experience I get uh think about that bad experience I get uh think about that bad experience I get uh I get reviews on the podcast and I would I get reviews on the podcast and I would I get reviews on the podcast and I would say that they you they don't necessarily

say that they you they don't necessarily say that they you they don't necessarily always feel good but uh like I'm looking always feel good but uh like I'm looking always feel good but uh like I'm looking for example on ink calendar which is a for example on ink calendar which is a for example on ink calendar which is a highly rated almost 4.0 3.9 you know highly rated almost 4.0 3.9 you know highly rated almost 4.0 3.9 you know fourstar app here but I look at the the fourstar app here but I look at the the fourstar app here but I look at the the lowest reviews you know what they all lowest reviews you know what they all lowest reviews you know what they all are oh it wouldn't download oh Microsoft are oh it wouldn't download oh Microsoft are oh it wouldn't download oh Microsoft Store wouldn't update it they have Store wouldn't update it they have Store wouldn't update it they have nothing to do with ink calendar that's nothing to do with ink calendar that's nothing to do with ink calendar that's got to feel weird yep it is frustrating got to feel weird yep it is frustrating got to feel weird yep it is frustrating and it's interesting because that app is and it's interesting because that app is and it's interesting because that app is very much a store Discovery app and an very much a store Discovery app and an very much a store Discovery app and an app like text grab which is uh related app like text grab which is uh related app like text grab which is uh related to text extractor the power toy I made to text extractor the power toy I made to text extractor the power toy I made that power toy for the the team there that power toy for the the team there that power toy for the the team there and that is just CED on GitHub more and that is just CED on GitHub more and that is just CED on GitHub more often and so when I when people get bugs often and so when I when people get bugs often and so when I when people get bugs on text extract or text grab they're on text extract or text grab they're on text extract or text grab they're saying hey I found this bug you know I saying hey I found this bug you know I saying hey I found this bug you know I think it's online 59 you know they're think it's online 59 you know they're think it's online 59 you know they're they are reporting the bug and there they are reporting the bug and there they are reporting the bug and there there's no review system on GitHub so I there's no review system on GitHub so I there's no review system on GitHub so I think it's it's interesting how when think it's it's interesting how when think it's it's interesting how when there's a mechanism for that feedback to there's a mechanism for that feedback to there's a mechanism for that feedback to kind of like Get handled and addressed kind of like Get handled and addressed kind of like Get handled and addressed people feel heard and they feel like people feel heard and they feel like people feel heard and they feel like they can you know engage a little bit they can you know engage a little bit they can you know engage a little bit more but on the on an app store all the more but on the on an app store all the more but on the on an app store all the app stores are just like one zero to I app stores are just like one zero to I app stores are just like one zero to I guess one to five stars say what you guess one to five stars say what you guess one to five stars say what you want to say and that's it like it want to say and that's it like it want to say and that's it like it doesn't open a ticket you know it doesn't open a ticket you know it doesn't open a ticket you know it doesn't it's not a ticketing system it's doesn't it's not a ticketing system it's doesn't it's not a ticketing system it's it's kind of different there it doesn't it's kind of different there it doesn't it's kind of different there it doesn't open a support case and so people just open a support case and so people just open a support case and so people just take that as an opportunity to just rail

take that as an opportunity to just rail take that as an opportunity to just rail on you sometimes and that is just kill on you sometimes and that is just kill on you sometimes and that is just kill her and I try to reply and say hey I'm her and I try to reply and say hey I'm her and I try to reply and say hey I'm sorry you're having a problem it's it's sorry you're having a problem it's it's sorry you're having a problem it's it's just you know again even in the reviews just you know again even in the reviews just you know again even in the reviews I'm trying to communicate that it's me I'm trying to communicate that it's me I'm trying to communicate that it's me you know I'm sorry you had this send an you know I'm sorry you had this send an you know I'm sorry you had this send an email I will look into it yeah um email I will look into it yeah um email I will look into it yeah um because it really is just me and a lot because it really is just me and a lot because it really is just me and a lot of times people are like reasonable of times people are like reasonable of times people are like reasonable almost always people are reasonable and almost always people are reasonable and almost always people are reasonable and I say please email support I'll I'll try I say please email support I'll I'll try I say please email support I'll I'll try to help you out yeah it seems like your to help you out yeah it seems like your to help you out yeah it seems like your um your apps that are clearly developer um your apps that are clearly developer um your apps that are clearly developer apps or like uh prosumer apps not apps or like uh prosumer apps not apps or like uh prosumer apps not consumer but like in professionals like consumer but like in professionals like consumer but like in professionals like if it didn't work like one of the things if it didn't work like one of the things if it didn't work like one of the things on text extractor was like doesn't work on text extractor was like doesn't work on text extractor was like doesn't work with uh Arabic they give you a three with uh Arabic they give you a three with uh Arabic they give you a three star review you said I'll fix it in the star review you said I'll fix it in the star review you said I'll fix it in the next one they'll come back they'll next one they'll come back they'll next one they'll come back they'll they'll update it to a festar review they'll update it to a festar review they'll update it to a festar review because a developer is telling another because a developer is telling another because a developer is telling another developer I seeu but then the ink one is developer I seeu but then the ink one is developer I seeu but then the ink one is more of a consumer app that regular more of a consumer app that regular more of a consumer app that regular humans are using and they're like it humans are using and they're like it humans are using and they're like it either is amazing or it's not amazing either is amazing or it's not amazing either is amazing or it's not amazing like it's like one star or five stars like it's like one star or five stars like it's like one star or five stars there's no there's no four stars there's there's no there's no four stars there's there's no there's no four stars there's no four and a half Stars they just want no four and a half Stars they just want no four and a half Stars they just want you to know it didn't update or it you to know it didn't update or it you to know it didn't update or it didn't and then then they'll go and didn't and then then they'll go and didn't and then then they'll go and blame things about like Microsoft blame things about like Microsoft blame things about like Microsoft Defender did this thing got nothing to Defender did this thing got nothing to Defender did this thing got nothing to do with you do with you do with you uh I wonder if devs are nicer or or less uh I wonder if devs are nicer or or less uh I wonder if devs are nicer or or less nice when it comes to reviews I I think nice when it comes to reviews I I think nice when it comes to reviews I I think so and I think it really is to your so and I think it really is to your so and I think it really is to your point like you kind of have to get it point like you kind of have to get it point like you kind of have to get it like you're not just out there a lot of like you're not just out there a lot of like you're not just out there a lot of devs do get it and they understand kind devs do get it and they understand kind devs do get it and they understand kind of how hard it can be and how tricky it of how hard it can be and how tricky it of how hard it can be and how tricky it can be to solve some of these bugs uh can be to solve some of these bugs uh can be to solve some of these bugs uh and consumers just think you know they and consumers just think you know they and consumers just think you know they they open office and they work in office

they open office and they work in office they open office and they work in office and they close that and they open you and they close that and they open you and they close that and they open you know in calendar and they're like know in calendar and they're like know in calendar and they're like they're they're they're equivalent and so they you know have the equivalent and so they you know have the equivalent and so they you know have the same kind of Standards the same reaction same kind of Standards the same reaction same kind of Standards the same reaction even though they're very different uh even though they're very different uh even though they're very different uh and they're built by very different and they're built by very different and they're built by very different groups of people but it's actually an groups of people but it's actually an groups of people but it's actually an interesting pattern in apps I don't know interesting pattern in apps I don't know interesting pattern in apps I don't know if you've noticed it when uh they'll ask if you've noticed it when uh they'll ask if you've noticed it when uh they'll ask you hey are you liking the app and if you hey are you liking the app and if you hey are you liking the app and if you say yes they'll say rate it and if you say yes they'll say rate it and if you say yes they'll say rate it and if you say no they'll say send us an email you say no they'll say send us an email you say no they'll say send us an email yeah exactly don't rate it no matter yeah exactly don't rate it no matter yeah exactly don't rate it no matter what you do say nothing to the thing what you do say nothing to the thing what you do say nothing to the thing because they're trying to move you to because they're trying to move you to because they're trying to move you to the ticket right they're like and the ticket right they're like and the ticket right they're like and ultimately I think that is part of why ultimately I think that is part of why ultimately I think that is part of why again I'm like trying to put the human again I'm like trying to put the human again I'm like trying to put the human back in the loop and I'm like back in the loop and I'm like back in the loop and I'm like I I can help you with this like let's I I can help you with this like let's I I can help you with this like let's let's have a dialogue here and the App let's have a dialogue here and the App let's have a dialogue here and the App Store review just is not a place for Store review just is not a place for Store review just is not a place for dialogue um which is it definitely makes dialogue um which is it definitely makes dialogue um which is it definitely makes it a challenge to address anything so it a challenge to address anything so it a challenge to address anything so you've got a bunch of apps though and you've got a bunch of apps though and you've got a bunch of apps though and you've got a bunch of apps times updates you've got a bunch of apps times updates you've got a bunch of apps times updates times reviews uh they're all priced times reviews uh they're all priced times reviews uh they're all priced between $10 and $1.99 so um it certainly between $10 and $1.99 so um it certainly between $10 and $1.99 so um it certainly they email you and they take an hour of they email you and they take an hour of they email you and they take an hour of your time that's cutting into any you your time that's cutting into any you your time that's cutting into any you know coffee money that you're making know coffee money that you're making know coffee money that you're making how do you maintain your like mental how do you maintain your like mental how do you maintain your like mental health and general Vibe because I see health and general Vibe because I see health and general Vibe because I see not just you you're an indie app not just you you're an indie app not just you you're an indie app developer but I see open source people developer but I see open source people developer but I see open source people burn out we see YouTubers burn out how burn out we see YouTubers burn out how burn out we see YouTubers burn out how do you prevent burning out if you're do you prevent burning out if you're do you prevent burning out if you're just a oneman shop I think something just a oneman shop I think something just a oneman shop I think something that really helps is having a network that really helps is having a network that really helps is having a network totally devoid or disconnected from Tech totally devoid or disconnected from Tech totally devoid or disconnected from Tech and just friends who don't know anything

and just friends who don't know anything and just friends who don't know anything about it uh and you can just like about it uh and you can just like about it uh and you can just like complain about it and that helps and complain about it and that helps and complain about it and that helps and then also running you know having then also running you know having then also running you know having hobbies that have nothing do it it but hobbies that have nothing do it it but hobbies that have nothing do it it but also having a few different apps so also having a few different apps so also having a few different apps so instead of having all of my eggs in one instead of having all of my eggs in one instead of having all of my eggs in one basket and I just have to hammer on a basket and I just have to hammer on a basket and I just have to hammer on a problem over and over and over until I problem over and over and over until I problem over and over and over until I get it done I can kind of bounce around get it done I can kind of bounce around get it done I can kind of bounce around so I do frequently kind of get I so I do frequently kind of get I so I do frequently kind of get I wouldn't call it burned out but I get wouldn't call it burned out but I get wouldn't call it burned out but I get you know at the end of my uh my energy you know at the end of my uh my energy you know at the end of my uh my energy so I whenever I talk to people about so I whenever I talk to people about so I whenever I talk to people about Indie apps I frequently frame it in a Indie apps I frequently frame it in a Indie apps I frequently frame it in a term of like energy which sounds a term of like energy which sounds a term of like energy which sounds a little like mystical um but anybody who little like mystical um but anybody who little like mystical um but anybody who works on projects that don't have a you works on projects that don't have a you works on projects that don't have a you know a deadline or a hard start stop know a deadline or a hard start stop know a deadline or a hard start stop kind of understand what that means it's kind of understand what that means it's kind of understand what that means it's like if I don't have energy for it I'm like if I don't have energy for it I'm like if I don't have energy for it I'm not going to work on it and so if I have not going to work on it and so if I have not going to work on it and so if I have five apps I can kind of like follow the five apps I can kind of like follow the five apps I can kind of like follow the energy here so I'm like oh I want to energy here so I'm like oh I want to energy here so I'm like oh I want to follow the energy on my react native app follow the energy on my react native app follow the energy on my react native app okay now I want to follow the energy okay now I want to follow the energy okay now I want to follow the energy over here and yeah the issues and the over here and yeah the issues and the over here and yeah the issues and the the stuff builds up and you know builds the stuff builds up and you know builds the stuff builds up and you know builds up the energy and you're like okay I up the energy and you're like okay I up the energy and you're like okay I have I know what I'm going to work on have I know what I'm going to work on have I know what I'm going to work on and I'm gonna get excited about it um and I'm gonna get excited about it um and I'm gonna get excited about it um because if I'm not excited about it if I because if I'm not excited about it if I because if I'm not excited about it if I hate it then why am I trying to make hate it then why am I trying to make hate it then why am I trying to make this my job that is very healthy uh are this my job that is very healthy uh are this my job that is very healthy uh are you familiar with the concept of Spoon you familiar with the concept of Spoon you familiar with the concept of Spoon Theory barely right so it's just it's Theory barely right so it's just it's Theory barely right so it's just it's just another way of saying like do you just another way of saying like do you just another way of saying like do you have the energy but it's a it's kind of have the energy but it's a it's kind of have the energy but it's a it's kind of a fun thing to say it's a metaphor that a fun thing to say it's a metaphor that a fun thing to say it's a metaphor that describes the amount of energy that you describes the amount of energy that you describes the amount of energy that you have mental energy physical energy is have mental energy physical energy is have mental energy physical energy is how many spoons were you given in the how many spoons were you given in the how many spoons were you given in the morning so it's like okay I got six morning so it's like okay I got six morning so it's like okay I got six spoons am I doing a thing that is going spoons am I doing a thing that is going spoons am I doing a thing that is going to take spoons whether it be and you can

to take spoons whether it be and you can to take spoons whether it be and you can use the metaphor like am I emptying the use the metaphor like am I emptying the use the metaphor like am I emptying the ocean with a teaspoon am I taking a ocean with a teaspoon am I taking a ocean with a teaspoon am I taking a spoon and I got to and eat a whole pile spoon and I got to and eat a whole pile spoon and I got to and eat a whole pile of crap at work so then you know my kids of crap at work so then you know my kids of crap at work so then you know my kids will come home and they're just like I will come home and they're just like I will come home and they're just like I got no spoons today man you know so then got no spoons today man you know so then got no spoons today man you know so then you go and do the other thing that'll you go and do the other thing that'll you go and do the other thing that'll get you those spoons back so that you get you those spoons back so that you get you those spoons back so that you can go and shovel the can go and shovel the can go and shovel the tomorrow and you might feel like this is tomorrow and you might feel like this is tomorrow and you might feel like this is an ink calendar day or another day might an ink calendar day or another day might an ink calendar day or another day might be this is a text grab day I got the be this is a text grab day I got the be this is a text grab day I got the spoons for that app but not this other spoons for that app but not this other spoons for that app but not this other app yep for sure it's it it it app yep for sure it's it it it app yep for sure it's it it it definitely is a lot about the managing definitely is a lot about the managing definitely is a lot about the managing your own energy because I'm right now your own energy because I'm right now your own energy because I'm right now I'm doing a kind of major rewrite of the I'm doing a kind of major rewrite of the I'm doing a kind of major rewrite of the appointments and uh how appointments are appointments and uh how appointments are appointments and uh how appointments are managed through ink calendar and uh it managed through ink calendar and uh it managed through ink calendar and uh it is slow it is arduous and I am not a is slow it is arduous and I am not a is slow it is arduous and I am not a professional professional professional developer so I'm making a lot of developer so I'm making a lot of developer so I'm making a lot of mistakes and it's going slower than it mistakes and it's going slower than it mistakes and it's going slower than it should and it really helps to have other should and it really helps to have other should and it really helps to have other things so I can feel like I'm productive things so I can feel like I'm productive things so I can feel like I'm productive because a lot of times you don't really because a lot of times you don't really because a lot of times you don't really see the output and I don't know who said see the output and I don't know who said see the output and I don't know who said it but I heard someone on the internet it but I heard someone on the internet it but I heard someone on the internet say if you're feeling burned out it's say if you're feeling burned out it's say if you're feeling burned out it's because you're not really seeing the because you're not really seeing the because you're not really seeing the output of what you're doing you don't output of what you're doing you don't output of what you're doing you don't see the the impact like it doesn't seem see the the impact like it doesn't seem see the the impact like it doesn't seem valuable like nothing's happened I've valuable like nothing's happened I've valuable like nothing's happened I've done nothing for nothing's been produced done nothing for nothing's been produced done nothing for nothing's been produced right yeah and that's actually where the right yeah and that's actually where the right yeah and that's actually where the reviews kind of help and uh doing reviews kind of help and uh doing reviews kind of help and uh doing connecting with people and sharing with connecting with people and sharing with connecting with people and sharing with people and getting out there and I mean people and getting out there and I mean people and getting out there and I mean simple QR code maker which is a free QR simple QR code maker which is a free QR simple QR code maker which is a free QR code app uh that I actually made because code app uh that I actually made because code app uh that I actually made because my job my uh we had to make QR codes and my job my uh we had to make QR codes and my job my uh we had to make QR codes and I couldn't find one that I trusted that

I couldn't find one that I trusted that I couldn't find one that I trusted that was good in open source and I was like was good in open source and I was like was good in open source and I was like well let me do it well let me do it well let me do it and people love it and it just feels and people love it and it just feels and people love it and it just feels really exciting when you read a review really exciting when you read a review really exciting when you read a review that says you know this is simple why that says you know this is simple why that says you know this is simple why aren't more apps like this great job I aren't more apps like this great job I aren't more apps like this great job I don't know it really brings a lot of don't know it really brings a lot of don't know it really brings a lot of energy to the energy to the energy to the work hey friends for the next couple of work hey friends for the next couple of work hey friends for the next couple of episodes while I learn more about AI in episodes while I learn more about AI in episodes while I learn more about AI in the middle of the show I'm going to chat the middle of the show I'm going to chat the middle of the show I'm going to chat with ler Van Dorne from Qualcomm and with ler Van Dorne from Qualcomm and with ler Van Dorne from Qualcomm and look at some of the great work that look at some of the great work that look at some of the great work that they're doing over there I've got a a they're doing over there I've got a a they're doing over there I've got a a Snapdragon based co-pilot PC right now Snapdragon based co-pilot PC right now Snapdragon based co-pilot PC right now and the battery life is like it's the and the battery life is like it's the and the battery life is like it's the battery life that they always promised battery life that they always promised battery life that they always promised me how is that possible what changes me how is that possible what changes me how is that possible what changes were made to make the battery life so were made to make the battery life so were made to make the battery life so good yeah so first of all you're good yeah so first of all you're good yeah so first of all you're absolutely right right if I look at the absolutely right right if I look at the absolutely right right if I look at the D XPS I think it's 19 hours HPS Omni D XPS I think it's 19 hours HPS Omni D XPS I think it's 19 hours HPS Omni book I think as 26 hours is absolutely book I think as 26 hours is absolutely book I think as 26 hours is absolutely amazing basic it's the old day compute amazing basic it's the old day compute amazing basic it's the old day compute that we've all been going for uh the way that we've all been going for uh the way that we've all been going for uh the way we're getting there is first of all a we're getting there is first of all a we're getting there is first of all a very efficient CPU right so we have a very efficient CPU right so we have a very efficient CPU right so we have a CPU that gives you phenomenal power CPU that gives you phenomenal power CPU that gives you phenomenal power right that so it makes it a very Snappy right that so it makes it a very Snappy right that so it makes it a very Snappy platform but it also does that at very platform but it also does that at very platform but it also does that at very very efficiently the other part of it to very efficiently the other part of it to very efficiently the other part of it to we have lots of dedicated accelerators we have lots of dedicated accelerators we have lots of dedicated accelerators including the npu which is a dedicated including the npu which is a dedicated including the npu which is a dedicated AI accelerator it just runs the AI inp AI accelerator it just runs the AI inp AI accelerator it just runs the AI inp algorithms and it does that better and algorithms and it does that better and algorithms and it does that better and more power efficient than anybody else more power efficient than anybody else more power efficient than anybody else right so it's a combination of these two right so it's a combination of these two right so it's a combination of these two things it's a very efficient CPU and things it's a very efficient CPU and things it's a very efficient CPU and that a

that a that a heterogenous accelerator strategy which heterogenous accelerator strategy which heterogenous accelerator strategy which includes an AI machine learning includes an AI machine learning includes an AI machine learning accelerator that is accelerator that is accelerator that is absolutely wow that's so cool it's it's absolutely wow that's so cool it's it's absolutely wow that's so cool it's it's really happening uh the move to a new really happening uh the move to a new really happening uh the move to a new instruction set architecture is seeing instruction set architecture is seeing instruction set architecture is seeing some really extraordinary improvements some really extraordinary improvements some really extraordinary improvements uh I'm really enjoying my my copilot PC uh I'm really enjoying my my copilot PC uh I'm really enjoying my my copilot PC folks can learn a lot more at folks can learn a lot more at folks can learn a lot more at qualcomm.com developer if you want to qualcomm.com developer if you want to qualcomm.com developer if you want to build your software for this great new build your software for this great new build your software for this great new platform I want to shift gears a little platform I want to shift gears a little platform I want to shift gears a little bit and I want to call out that you have bit and I want to call out that you have bit and I want to call out that you have apps on the Windows store the Microsoft apps on the Windows store the Microsoft apps on the Windows store the Microsoft store the Apple Store and the Google store the Apple Store and the Google store the Apple Store and the Google Play Store and I can only assume I have Play Store and I can only assume I have Play Store and I can only assume I have heard I've done this once or twice but I heard I've done this once or twice but I heard I've done this once or twice but I don't have a lot of my my apps are on don't have a lot of my my apps are on don't have a lot of my my apps are on GitHub and you know people just download GitHub and you know people just download GitHub and you know people just download and like run click once but um I've and like run click once but um I've and like run click once but um I've heard that the packaging up and the heard that the packaging up and the heard that the packaging up and the getting an app in the store can be more getting an app in the store can be more getting an app in the store can be more challenging than even writing the app it challenging than even writing the app it challenging than even writing the app it absolutely is it's kind of crazy how absolutely is it's kind of crazy how absolutely is it's kind of crazy how complicated like building an app is and complicated like building an app is and complicated like building an app is and then for someone who's like never done then for someone who's like never done then for someone who's like never done this before they're like wow I did all this before they're like wow I did all this before they're like wow I did all this work here now I just put it in the this work here now I just put it in the this work here now I just put it in the store and you're like oh make a zip file store and you're like oh make a zip file store and you're like oh make a zip file and upload it right super easy yeah so and upload it right super easy yeah so and upload it right super easy yeah so actually the the technology I use for actually the the technology I use for actually the the technology I use for outfit is called it's react native but outfit is called it's react native but outfit is called it's react native but it's a service called Expo I don't know it's a service called Expo I don't know it's a service called Expo I don't know if you've heard of Expo no it is amazing if you've heard of Expo no it is amazing if you've heard of Expo no it is amazing because it fixes the problem that you because it fixes the problem that you because it fixes the problem that you just described so they kind of are an just described so they kind of are an just described so they kind of are an abstraction layer on top of react native

abstraction layer on top of react native abstraction layer on top of react native and they abstract away a lot of the and they abstract away a lot of the and they abstract away a lot of the complex complex complex and one of the big parts of complexity and one of the big parts of complexity and one of the big parts of complexity that they abstract is building and that they abstract is building and that they abstract is building and submitting to the store which is amazing submitting to the store which is amazing submitting to the store which is amazing like I have a hard time recommending or like I have a hard time recommending or like I have a hard time recommending or trying out anything else because I can trying out anything else because I can trying out anything else because I can literally go into my C and type EAS literally go into my C and type EAS literally go into my C and type EAS build all and it will sign me in you build all and it will sign me in you build all and it will sign me in you know it'll pop up web browsers I put in know it'll pop up web browsers I put in know it'll pop up web browsers I put in my two Factor codes runs the build and my two Factor codes runs the build and my two Factor codes runs the build and then I say yes submit all and it submits then I say yes submit all and it submits then I say yes submit all and it submits them to the store it is they have taken them to the store it is they have taken them to the store it is they have taken the ceremony of that and and gotten rid the ceremony of that and and gotten rid the ceremony of that and and gotten rid of it yeah it is it's a dream now on of it yeah it is it's a dream now on of it yeah it is it's a dream now on some of my Windows apps that is some of my Windows apps that is some of my Windows apps that is literally like every single different literally like every single different literally like every single different technology so I have like a wwp app technology so I have like a wwp app technology so I have like a wwp app that's packaged and I have like build that's packaged and I have like build that's packaged and I have like build those packages on my device so that's those packages on my device so that's those packages on my device so that's free so Expo I'm using some paid plan so free so Expo I'm using some paid plan so free so Expo I'm using some paid plan so I do have to pay for it and I you know I I do have to pay for it and I you know I I do have to pay for it and I you know I wish I could you know use my desktop wish I could you know use my desktop wish I could you know use my desktop that's just sitting here but can't build that's just sitting here but can't build that's just sitting here but can't build Apple can't build Apple apps without a Apple can't build Apple apps without a Apple can't build Apple apps without a Mac so that's a challenge but xw gets Mac so that's a challenge but xw gets Mac so that's a challenge but xw gets around it um but on Windows I'm bundling around it um but on Windows I'm bundling around it um but on Windows I'm bundling up and packaging these apps and there's up and packaging these apps and there's up and packaging these apps and there's all these it's the tool train is so all these it's the tool train is so all these it's the tool train is so complicated fails in the middle and then complicated fails in the middle and then complicated fails in the middle and then you upload it and then there's a failure you upload it and then there's a failure you upload it and then there's a failure when you upload it or there's an issue when you upload it or there's an issue when you upload it or there's an issue with certification it's it can get with certification it's it can get with certification it's it can get complicated so Expo and EAS underneath complicated so Expo and EAS underneath complicated so Expo and EAS underneath Expo are they they they don't overly Expo are they they they don't overly Expo are they they they don't overly point out that they're react but like point out that they're react but like point out that they're react but like the the the goal is they are react there the the the goal is they are react there the the the goal is they are react there you create Universal apps with react

you create Universal apps with react you create Universal apps with react could be a thing that could be extended could be a thing that could be extended could be a thing that could be extended to support just apps in general could it to support just apps in general could it to support just apps in general could it be not specific to react or is it like be not specific to react or is it like be not specific to react or is it like why is a deployment Tech and the why is a deployment Tech and the why is a deployment Tech and the bundling Tech what do they have to be bundling Tech what do they have to be bundling Tech what do they have to be married that's a great question I don't married that's a great question I don't married that's a great question I don't know and I actually think flutter from know and I actually think flutter from know and I actually think flutter from what I've heard I've never got into what I've heard I've never got into what I've heard I've never got into flutter but from what I've heard flutter but from what I've heard flutter but from what I've heard actually the the tool chain for building actually the the tool chain for building actually the the tool chain for building the apps and deploying them is actually the apps and deploying them is actually the apps and deploying them is actually similar in that they do a really good similar in that they do a really good similar in that they do a really good job of you just run a command that says job of you just run a command that says job of you just run a command that says like build all of my variants and then like build all of my variants and then like build all of my variants and then submit them to the stores you know pop submit them to the stores you know pop submit them to the stores you know pop up the web browsers you need to I will up the web browsers you need to I will up the web browsers you need to I will log in let's just make it happen and I log in let's just make it happen and I log in let's just make it happen and I love that I mean again I think I said it love that I mean again I think I said it love that I mean again I think I said it earlier that as an indie the number one earlier that as an indie the number one earlier that as an indie the number one resource I have is my time so if I spend resource I have is my time so if I spend resource I have is my time so if I spend my time fiddling around with these these my time fiddling around with these these my time fiddling around with these these build pipelines it just is such it kills build pipelines it just is such it kills build pipelines it just is such it kills your energy and it sucks your time it is your energy and it sucks your time it is your energy and it sucks your time it is a lose lose okay so we really need a lose lose okay so we really need a lose lose okay so we really need someone to listen to this from Windows someone to listen to this from Windows someone to listen to this from Windows and we need Expo to work on Windows or and we need Expo to work on Windows or and we need Expo to work on Windows or we need an expo for Windows because we need an expo for Windows because we need an expo for Windows because you're saying all the ceremony all the you're saying all the ceremony all the you're saying all the ceremony all the boring stuff all the toil all the tedium boring stuff all the toil all the tedium boring stuff all the toil all the tedium now some of the TDMs when I've done you now some of the TDMs when I've done you now some of the TDMs when I've done you know iOS apps has been like making the know iOS apps has been like making the know iOS apps has been like making the 15 57,000 pgs that they want in various 15 57,000 pgs that they want in various 15 57,000 pgs that they want in various shapes I assume it doesn't solve that shapes I assume it doesn't solve that shapes I assume it doesn't solve that for you it helps icons of all shapes and for you it helps icons of all shapes and for you it helps icons of all shapes and sizes it does help I don't have to make sizes it does help I don't have to make sizes it does help I don't have to make I don't have to generate all those okay I don't have to generate all those okay I don't have to generate all those okay you make a you make an SVG and it finds you make a you make an SVG and it finds you make a you make an SVG and it finds the ones of different sizes they have a the ones of different sizes they have a the ones of different sizes they have a little uh icon template that you can

little uh icon template that you can little uh icon template that you can bring figma and then kind of like bring figma and then kind of like bring figma and then kind of like generate one icon and then you just tell generate one icon and then you just tell generate one icon and then you just tell it to build and I think that might be it to build and I think that might be it to build and I think that might be part of the I don't see this is a part part of the I don't see this is a part part of the I don't see this is a part of it I don't even know how they're of it I don't even know how they're of it I don't even know how they're doing it you don't even know because it doing it you don't even know because it doing it you don't even know because it just works but it doesn't even matter just works but it doesn't even matter just works but it doesn't even matter yeah it are you doing these Builds on yeah it are you doing these Builds on yeah it are you doing these Builds on your laptop or is this in GitHub actions your laptop or is this in GitHub actions your laptop or is this in GitHub actions it's in their e so it's in the expo Expo it's in their e so it's in the expo Expo it's in their e so it's in the expo Expo is open source and E is the paid for is open source and E is the paid for is open source and E is the paid for thing yep e is how they make the money thing yep e is how they make the money thing yep e is how they make the money so they host the machines I host the the so they host the machines I host the the so they host the machines I host the the code in GitHub they connect to GitHub code in GitHub they connect to GitHub code in GitHub they connect to GitHub they pull the code and then run the they pull the code and then run the they pull the code and then run the build Expo application Services yeah build Expo application Services yeah build Expo application Services yeah create a universal Android iOS and web create a universal Android iOS and web create a universal Android iOS and web application it does feel like there's application it does feel like there's application it does feel like there's you know someone who's on exp someone you know someone who's on exp someone you know someone who's on exp someone who works for Expo who's listening to who works for Expo who's listening to who works for Expo who's listening to this podcast call me and when you have a this podcast call me and when you have a this podcast call me and when you have a Windows version or want to do a Windows Windows version or want to do a Windows Windows version or want to do a Windows version we'll have you on the show and version we'll have you on the show and version we'll have you on the show and hear about it so I'll say there is at hear about it so I'll say there is at hear about it so I'll say there is at least one person I know at Microsoft who least one person I know at Microsoft who least one person I know at Microsoft who is working on this problem oh yeah for is working on this problem oh yeah for is working on this problem oh yeah for Windows but it is don't call them out if Windows but it is don't call them out if Windows but it is don't call them out if it's a secret but text me tell me uh no it's a secret but text me tell me uh no it's a secret but text me tell me uh no I can it's there's an open I can it's there's an open I can it's there's an open source project I think it's called store source project I think it's called store source project I think it's called store CLI yeah that's great so they're working CLI yeah that's great so they're working CLI yeah that's great so they're working on it but I see Ms store CLI yep that's on it but I see Ms store CLI yep that's on it but I see Ms store CLI yep that's the one so there was a there was a the one so there was a there was a the one so there was a there was a commit just five days ago yeah so it's commit just five days ago yeah so it's commit just five days ago yeah so it's someone has working on it but this is a someone has working on it but this is a someone has working on it but this is a a thing a thing a thing of this is a end to end problem and you

of this is a end to end problem and you of this is a end to end problem and you can do everything you want and you can can do everything you want and you can can do everything you want and you can try to build and do everything locally try to build and do everything locally try to build and do everything locally and then submit it over apis but there's and then submit it over apis but there's and then submit it over apis but there's a whole other hand shaking of a whole other hand shaking of a whole other hand shaking of authentication and communicating and is authentication and communicating and is authentication and communicating and is the API even there like how do we bundle the API even there like how do we bundle the API even there like how do we bundle with different architectures correctly with different architectures correctly with different architectures correctly like how are we even setting up our like how are we even setting up our like how are we even setting up our projects correctly to do that work and projects correctly to do that work and projects correctly to do that work and when I use the MS store CLI I get crazy when I use the MS store CLI I get crazy when I use the MS store CLI I get crazy errors with of my apps and I'm just like errors with of my apps and I'm just like errors with of my apps and I'm just like I have no idea what this is I want to I have no idea what this is I want to I have no idea what this is I want to make sure you're clear with the with the make sure you're clear with the with the make sure you're clear with the with the msor CLI that you just mentioned are you msor CLI that you just mentioned are you msor CLI that you just mentioned are you talking about with store packaging in talking about with store packaging in talking about with store packaging in general with the package that I just general with the package that I just general with the package that I just mentioned I've tried to use it and it mentioned I've tried to use it and it mentioned I've tried to use it and it has not worked for me so but again this has not worked for me so but again this has not worked for me so but again this is a question of I don't know whose is a question of I don't know whose is a question of I don't know whose fault this is like it is it the author fault this is like it is it the author fault this is like it is it the author is it it could be just that it's really is it it could be just that it's really is it it could be just that it's really complicated I think it's just really complicated I think it's just really complicated I think it's just really really complicated like I I've been really complicated like I I've been really complicated like I I've been around you know the long enough to not around you know the long enough to not around you know the long enough to not oversimplify problems that I don't know oversimplify problems that I don't know oversimplify problems that I don't know enough about enough about enough about and I don't know enough about this one and I don't know enough about this one and I don't know enough about this one it seems really complicated to me yeah it seems really complicated to me yeah it seems really complicated to me yeah and now of course with arm I just got an and now of course with arm I just got an and now of course with arm I just got an arm PC and that's another thing right I arm PC and that's another thing right I arm PC and that's another thing right I want to type wi get at the command line want to type wi get at the command line want to type wi get at the command line and I want to just get the thing and I and I want to just get the thing and I and I want to just get the thing and I want to get it from the store and I want want to get it from the store and I want want to get it from the store and I want it to just work you know this stores in it to just work you know this stores in it to just work you know this stores in general hide so much complexity from us general hide so much complexity from us general hide so much complexity from us about versioning and processors and about versioning and processors and about versioning and processors and memory and they just and updates so memory and they just and updates so memory and they just and updates so people wonder like why are they paying people wonder like why are they paying people wonder like why are they paying apple or why are they paying whoever for apple or why are they paying whoever for apple or why are they paying whoever for the store for the privilege M well let's the store for the privilege M well let's the store for the privilege M well let's talk about the CDN you know if you woke talk about the CDN you know if you woke talk about the CDN you know if you woke up and became viral tomorrow and had a

up and became viral tomorrow and had a up and became viral tomorrow and had a million new users you don't have to million new users you don't have to million new users you don't have to worry about that it's not going to cost worry about that it's not going to cost worry about that it's not going to cost you a you a you a penny I I tell people this yeah and that penny I I tell people this yeah and that penny I I tell people this yeah and that because I I tell them like oh yeah you because I I tell them like oh yeah you because I I tell them like oh yeah you know if I sell an app for a dollar I know if I sell an app for a dollar I know if I sell an app for a dollar I would only get like 70 cents from Apple would only get like 70 cents from Apple would only get like 70 cents from Apple and they're like what that's crazy and and they're like what that's crazy and and they're like what that's crazy and I'm like no no no you think it's crazy I'm like no no no you think it's crazy I'm like no no no you think it's crazy try hosting your own website try try hosting your own website try try hosting your own website try managing the entire thing that they do managing the entire thing that they do managing the entire thing that they do yeah yeah yeah like it is expensive it is hard it is like it is expensive it is hard it is like it is expensive it is hard it is complicated and again like this whole complicated and again like this whole complicated and again like this whole pipeline building submitting it's not pipeline building submitting it's not pipeline building submitting it's not really what you're trying to do like at really what you're trying to do like at really what you're trying to do like at the end of the day I found a problem I the end of the day I found a problem I the end of the day I found a problem I want to build a solution through want to build a solution through want to build a solution through software that's what I want to do I want software that's what I want to do I want software that's what I want to do I want to make that part better and like I to make that part better and like I to make that part better and like I don't care about anything don't care about anything don't care about anything else so you mentioned to me that you're else so you mentioned to me that you're else so you mentioned to me that you're you're married right yep and but you you're married right yep and but you you're married right yep and but you have a full-time job and then you have have a full-time job and then you have have a full-time job and then you have this side job uh and you're still this side job uh and you're still this side job uh and you're still married that's true that's true how do married that's true that's true how do married that's true that's true how do you balance how do you balance that do you balance how do you balance that do you balance how do you balance that do you ever do you ever have like an entire you ever do you ever have like an entire you ever do you ever have like an entire week where you just don't do this stuff week where you just don't do this stuff week where you just don't do this stuff on the side and you're okay with it yes on the side and you're okay with it yes on the side and you're okay with it yes it's rare but it does happen um it's rare but it does happen um it's rare but it does happen um frequently our like media time when we frequently our like media time when we frequently our like media time when we you know at the end of the day sit on you know at the end of the day sit on you know at the end of the day sit on the couch put a show on I will have my the couch put a show on I will have my the couch put a show on I will have my laptop and I'll be coding at the same laptop and I'll be coding at the same laptop and I'll be coding at the same time um if the show is really good time um if the show is really good time um if the show is really good sometimes you know coding doesn't happen sometimes you know coding doesn't happen sometimes you know coding doesn't happen you know yeah but that's typically the you know yeah but that's typically the you know yeah but that's typically the the ritual and and recently this summer the ritual and and recently this summer the ritual and and recently this summer July was like just a crazy month and I July was like just a crazy month and I July was like just a crazy month and I just had to look at all my GitHub issues

just had to look at all my GitHub issues just had to look at all my GitHub issues that are not going to get resolved and that are not going to get resolved and that are not going to get resolved and say not say not say not today but it was yeah I was definitely today but it was yeah I was definitely today but it was yeah I was definitely missing it so when that uh busy period missing it so when that uh busy period missing it so when that uh busy period ended I was excited to get back to it ended I was excited to get back to it ended I was excited to get back to it and kind of make some and kind of make some and kind of make some progress very very cool so the um the progress very very cool so the um the progress very very cool so the um the selection of the technology though you selection of the technology though you selection of the technology though you said you've got react you've got said you've got react you've got said you've got react you've got different apps how many different different apps how many different different apps how many different technologies have you picked as an indie technologies have you picked as an indie technologies have you picked as an indie because sometimes Indies will pick one because sometimes Indies will pick one because sometimes Indies will pick one and that'll just be that's their thing and that'll just be that's their thing and that'll just be that's their thing but you also seem to be using it as an but you also seem to be using it as an but you also seem to be using it as an excuse to learn new excuse to learn new excuse to learn new tech it's a good question so I learned tech it's a good question so I learned tech it's a good question so I learned on net originally and that's where I on net originally and that's where I on net originally and that's where I just feel comfortable I think that's just feel comfortable I think that's just feel comfortable I think that's just really natural to me is C and zaml just really natural to me is C and zaml just really natural to me is C and zaml I love it so that is where I'm going to I love it so that is where I'm going to I love it so that is where I'm going to go first but obviously we all have these go first but obviously we all have these go first but obviously we all have these phones in our pockets and net and zaml phones in our pockets and net and zaml phones in our pockets and net and zaml that story is that story is that story is complicated and particular complicated and particular complicated and particular the building the bundles and submitting the building the bundles and submitting the building the bundles and submitting them to the store story is very them to the store story is very them to the store story is very complicated and I have a friend who is complicated and I have a friend who is complicated and I have a friend who is like hey this is really you should check like hey this is really you should check like hey this is really you should check out Expo it's pretty straightforward and out Expo it's pretty straightforward and out Expo it's pretty straightforward and I can help you with your problems so I I can help you with your problems so I I can help you with your problems so I was like all right I'll give it a shot was like all right I'll give it a shot was like all right I'll give it a shot yeah and it's been pretty good I'm not a yeah and it's been pretty good I'm not a yeah and it's been pretty good I'm not a huge fan of writing in JavaScript and huge fan of writing in JavaScript and huge fan of writing in JavaScript and typescript and I have to like kind of typescript and I have to like kind of typescript and I have to like kind of get my head around it every time but get my head around it every time but get my head around it every time but then on the window side I feel like then on the window side I feel like then on the window side I feel like that's where I'm just like at home you that's where I'm just like at home you that's where I'm just like at home you know I'm like in my living room with the know I'm like in my living room with the know I'm like in my living room with the languages and the apis that I'm I I'm languages and the apis that I'm I I'm languages and the apis that I'm I I'm used to but still I have a wind fors app

used to but still I have a wind fors app used to but still I have a wind fors app a winup SDK app multiple I have a wwp a winup SDK app multiple I have a wwp a winup SDK app multiple I have a wwp app and I have a WPF app and I have a WPF app and I have a WPF app because at some app because at some app because at some point this is uh another thing I like to point this is uh another thing I like to point this is uh another thing I like to tell people is I feel like making apps tell people is I feel like making apps tell people is I feel like making apps is a little bit like candy making so is a little bit like candy making so is a little bit like candy making so apparently in candy making there's a apparently in candy making there's a apparently in candy making there's a saying that there has to be one hard saying that there has to be one hard saying that there has to be one hard step because if there's not you you know step because if there's not you you know step because if there's not you you know people are just going to rip you off and people are just going to rip you off and people are just going to rip you off and copy you and so I think in in all my copy you and so I think in in all my copy you and so I think in in all my apps there's at least one hard step but apps there's at least one hard step but apps there's at least one hard step but I don't want to fight the framework and I don't want to fight the framework and I don't want to fight the framework and so if I tried to do text grab in when up so if I tried to do text grab in when up so if I tried to do text grab in when up SDK or in uwp I would be fighting the SDK or in uwp I would be fighting the SDK or in uwp I would be fighting the framework it would be so challenging so framework it would be so challenging so framework it would be so challenging so it's actually easier for me to kind of it's actually easier for me to kind of it's actually easier for me to kind of learn a new framework and kind of learn learn a new framework and kind of learn learn a new framework and kind of learn a different way of doing things because a different way of doing things because a different way of doing things because it's way harder to actually overcome a it's way harder to actually overcome a it's way harder to actually overcome a full screen borderless transparent full screen borderless transparent full screen borderless transparent window so like those are the weird window so like those are the weird window so like those are the weird little things where it's like know what little things where it's like know what little things where it's like know what roadblocks you you're not going to break roadblocks you you're not going to break roadblocks you you're not going to break through and avoid them and it's really through and avoid them and it's really through and avoid them and it's really again it's about effort it's about time again it's about effort it's about time again it's about effort it's about time like I can and ultimately at the end of like I can and ultimately at the end of like I can and ultimately at the end of the day these technologies have been the day these technologies have been the day these technologies have been around for a while so if you Google how around for a while so if you Google how around for a while so if you Google how to do this in WPF you just get so many to do this in WPF you just get so many to do this in WPF you just get so many answers so maybe 20 years ago that answers so maybe 20 years ago that answers so maybe 20 years ago that wouldn't be the case you know it' be wouldn't be the case you know it' be wouldn't be the case you know it' be super hard to make these apps as fast as super hard to make these apps as fast as super hard to make these apps as fast as we can but it's just so easy with all we can but it's just so easy with all we can but it's just so easy with all the resources that are out there and all

the resources that are out there and all the resources that are out there and all the stack Overflow answering your exact the stack Overflow answering your exact the stack Overflow answering your exact question so the jumping between question so the jumping between question so the jumping between Frameworks Frameworks Frameworks isn't as much of a challenge as it maybe isn't as much of a challenge as it maybe isn't as much of a challenge as it maybe has been in the past yeah so everything has been in the past yeah so everything has been in the past yeah so everything is possible so before it was a is this is possible so before it was a is this is possible so before it was a is this possible can I call this sound API in possible can I call this sound API in possible can I call this sound API in JavaScript and now it's like oh yeah you JavaScript and now it's like oh yeah you JavaScript and now it's like oh yeah you can totally can it depends on how hard can totally can it depends on how hard can totally can it depends on how hard you want to work and you are learning a you want to work and you are learning a you want to work and you are learning a lot while you're doing this mhm it's a lot while you're doing this mhm it's a lot while you're doing this mhm it's a learning opportunity but it's also a learning opportunity but it's also a learning opportunity but it's also a matter of just checking to see what's matter of just checking to see what's matter of just checking to see what's going on elsewhere so part of it is you going on elsewhere so part of it is you going on elsewhere so part of it is you don't want to spend so much time and and don't want to spend so much time and and don't want to spend so much time and and be so invested that somebody elsewhere be so invested that somebody elsewhere be so invested that somebody elsewhere is solving a problem that you've had and is solving a problem that you've had and is solving a problem that you've had and you didn't even check like you didn't you didn't even check like you didn't you didn't even check like you didn't even see what was going on elsewhere so even see what was going on elsewhere so even see what was going on elsewhere so while I I really love Expo my time in uh while I I really love Expo my time in uh while I I really love Expo my time in uh in react native and actually writing the in react native and actually writing the in react native and actually writing the app I I'm like H it's not for me so it's app I I'm like H it's not for me so it's app I I'm like H it's not for me so it's it's fun it's pleasant but I have no it's fun it's pleasant but I have no it's fun it's pleasant but I have no interest and like moving everything over interest and like moving everything over interest and like moving everything over that way the web is great but it's just that way the web is great but it's just that way the web is great but it's just I don't know I don't know what it is I don't know I don't know what it is I don't know I don't know what it is there's just uh the animal spirits of there's just uh the animal spirits of there's just uh the animal spirits of how it feels to be building that type of how it feels to be building that type of how it feels to be building that type of software and I just love building these software and I just love building these software and I just love building these uh these desktop uh these desktop uh these desktop apps you want to get these apps used by apps you want to get these apps used by apps you want to get these apps used by as many people as possible but the power as many people as possible but the power as many people as possible but the power toys app which is free and you can get toys app which is free and you can get toys app which is free and you can get on Windows which I think is like the on Windows which I think is like the on Windows which I think is like the first thing I install I put Windows on first thing I install I put Windows on first thing I install I put Windows on my machine and I get power toys and it my machine and I get power toys and it my machine and I get power toys and it just based turns windows up to 11 and just based turns windows up to 11 and just based turns windows up to 11 and Clint rutkus and the friends over at Clint rutkus and the friends over at Clint rutkus and the friends over at power toys have in the last couple 5 10 power toys have in the last couple 5 10 power toys have in the last couple 5 10 years started calling people up that had

years started calling people up that had years started calling people up that had cool utilities and said hey why don't cool utilities and said hey why don't cool utilities and said hey why don't you just become a Power toy so then your you just become a Power toy so then your you just become a Power toy so then your app might go from a couple a thousand app might go from a couple a thousand app might go from a couple a thousand installs to several I don't know 100 installs to several I don't know 100 installs to several I don't know 100 million how did text extractor end up in million how did text extractor end up in million how did text extractor end up in power toys and did they give you a giant power toys and did they give you a giant power toys and did they give you a giant bag of money or did they just give you a bag of money or did they just give you a bag of money or did they just give you a high five no no giant bag of money high five no no giant bag of money high five no no giant bag of money unfortunately unfortunately unfortunately but so how it happened is I think at but so how it happened is I think at but so how it happened is I think at some point like people who put things some point like people who put things some point like people who put things out in the world like we're all trying out in the world like we're all trying out in the world like we're all trying to like look at you know what are to like look at you know what are to like look at you know what are problems and what are easy and you know problems and what are easy and you know problems and what are easy and you know everyone's like oh I got a really easy everyone's like oh I got a really easy everyone's like oh I got a really easy idea everybody always tells me ideas idea everybody always tells me ideas idea everybody always tells me ideas that they have and at some point you that they have and at some point you that they have and at some point you have to think if this is so clever like have to think if this is so clever like have to think if this is so clever like is it just going to become the air we is it just going to become the air we is it just going to become the air we breathe like is it just going to get breathe like is it just going to get breathe like is it just going to get become generic right away everyone's become generic right away everyone's become generic right away everyone's going to have one like am I in a moment going to have one like am I in a moment going to have one like am I in a moment or do I have something special so like or do I have something special so like or do I have something special so like you mentioned it's open source anybody you mentioned it's open source anybody you mentioned it's open source anybody can contribute utilities and there was can contribute utilities and there was can contribute utilities and there was an issue that somebody opened and they an issue that somebody opened and they an issue that somebody opened and they were like hey there'll be I saw this were like hey there'll be I saw this were like hey there'll be I saw this video on Twitter that somebody did took video on Twitter that somebody did took video on Twitter that somebody did took a screenshot and piped it into a a screenshot and piped it into a a screenshot and piped it into a tesseract we should build something like tesseract we should build something like tesseract we should build something like that and I was watching that thread and that and I was watching that thread and that and I was watching that thread and I was like M I have made I was like M I have made I was like M I have made this and somebody mentioned my uh text this and somebody mentioned my uh text this and somebody mentioned my uh text grab and they were like grab and they were like grab and they were like hey this is open source why don't you hey this is open source why don't you hey this is open source why don't you just use this and I was like okay at just use this and I was like okay at just use this and I was like okay at that point I have to make a that point I have to make a that point I have to make a decision I can either let someone else

decision I can either let someone else decision I can either let someone else do this or I can kind of own it myself do this or I can kind of own it myself do this or I can kind of own it myself and if I own it I can keep it scoped I and if I own it I can keep it scoped I and if I own it I can keep it scoped I can keep it to be a specific thing and can keep it to be a specific thing and can keep it to be a specific thing and so text grab does like it has like four so text grab does like it has like four so text grab does like it has like four different modes it has does a lot more different modes it has does a lot more different modes it has does a lot more stuff it's a lot more flexible and like stuff it's a lot more flexible and like stuff it's a lot more flexible and like weird in ways that power toys one is not weird in ways that power toys one is not weird in ways that power toys one is not but this way I can you know get the but this way I can you know get the but this way I can you know get the exposure connect with the team and I you exposure connect with the team and I you exposure connect with the team and I you know I've been still connected really know I've been still connected really know I've been still connected really good with the team over there uh they're good with the team over there uh they're good with the team over there uh they're all really great but I still have text all really great but I still have text all really great but I still have text grab and a ton of people come to text grab and a ton of people come to text grab and a ton of people come to text grab from text extractor and they say oh grab from text extractor and they say oh grab from text extractor and they say oh yeah it was good but like I wanted this yeah it was good but like I wanted this yeah it was good but like I wanted this feature and that feature and I saw you feature and that feature and I saw you feature and that feature and I saw you build it over there because really text build it over there because really text build it over there because really text extractor is a way for the team to extractor is a way for the team to extractor is a way for the team to understand the use case they understood understand the use case they understood understand the use case they understood it they kind of you know got some data it they kind of you know got some data it they kind of you know got some data they figured out how people do it and they figured out how people do it and they figured out how people do it and then they built a lot of that then they built a lot of that then they built a lot of that functionality directly into Snipping functionality directly into Snipping functionality directly into Snipping Tool and I'm like it's inevitable that Tool and I'm like it's inevitable that Tool and I'm like it's inevitable that these things happen but at least I got these things happen but at least I got these things happen but at least I got to play a part here and you know I get to play a part here and you know I get to play a part here and you know I get to make some good connections and I to make some good connections and I to make some good connections and I think I oh I became an MVP because of it think I oh I became an MVP because of it think I oh I became an MVP because of it and that you know opens doors so at the and that you know opens doors so at the and that you know opens doors so at the end of the day it's about making end of the day it's about making end of the day it's about making connections and opening doors and yeah connections and opening doors and yeah connections and opening doors and yeah that's so I knew that it was going to be that's so I knew that it was going to be that's so I knew that it was going to be a risk and I did not get you know a risk and I did not get you know a risk and I did not get you know life-changing amounts of money yeah well life-changing amounts of money yeah well life-changing amounts of money yeah well it's an open source project there's a it's an open source project there's a it's an open source project there's a ton of things inside of power toys that ton of things inside of power toys that ton of things inside of power toys that are open source things it's almost like

are open source things it's almost like are open source things it's almost like a packaging bundle like the Humble a packaging bundle like the Humble a packaging bundle like the Humble Bundle it's like yeah let's throw it in Bundle it's like yeah let's throw it in Bundle it's like yeah let's throw it in there and that'll make everyone's life there and that'll make everyone's life there and that'll make everyone's life everyone's life easier and then I like everyone's life easier and then I like everyone's life easier and then I like the idea that you you kind of forked it the idea that you you kind of forked it the idea that you you kind of forked it so you do have your own thing you can so you do have your own thing you can so you do have your own thing you can run in your own Direction and text run in your own Direction and text run in your own Direction and text extractor is its own thing with its own extractor is its own thing with its own extractor is its own thing with its own unique feature set so you get the best unique feature set so you get the best unique feature set so you get the best of both worlds yeah of both worlds yeah of both worlds yeah very cool well thank you so much Joseph very cool well thank you so much Joseph very cool well thank you so much Joseph finny for chatting with me today yeah finny for chatting with me today yeah finny for chatting with me today yeah thanks for the opportunity you can check thanks for the opportunity you can check thanks for the opportunity you can check out Joe's apps at Joe fin apps Joe out Joe's apps at Joe fin apps Joe out Joe's apps at Joe fin apps Joe fs.com download outdoor Fitness download fs.com download outdoor Fitness download fs.com download outdoor Fitness download ink calendar text grab and lots of other ink calendar text grab and lots of other ink calendar text grab and lots of other great things I'm a big fan myself of great things I'm a big fan myself of great things I'm a big fan myself of mini look which is just a tiny little mini look which is just a tiny little mini look which is just a tiny little email client for your outlook it's email client for your outlook it's email client for your outlook it's fantastic little thing for firing off fantastic little thing for firing off fantastic little thing for firing off quick little emails this has been quick little emails this has been quick little emails this has been another episode of Hansel minutes and another episode of Hansel minutes and another episode of Hansel minutes and and we'll see you again next week and we'll see you again next week and we'll see you again next week [Music]