VIDEO: Making "Tales of Kenzera: Zau" with Abubakar Salim

hi I'm Scott Hansel and this is another hi I'm Scott Hansel and this is another episode of Hansel minutes today I am episode of Hansel minutes today I am episode of Hansel minutes today I am pleased to have Abu Bakr salm on the pleased to have Abu Bakr salm on the pleased to have Abu Bakr salm on the show he is the actor and the founder of show he is the actor and the founder of show he is the actor and the founder of Sergent Studios and their recent video Sergent Studios and their recent video Sergent Studios and their recent video game release Tales of Kera Zhao is out game release Tales of Kera Zhao is out game release Tales of Kera Zhao is out right now and I have been just kneee in right now and I have been just kneee in right now and I have been just kneee in this world and I'm thrilled to be this world and I'm thrilled to be this world and I'm thrilled to be chatting with you sir how are you oh chatting with you sir how are you oh chatting with you sir how are you oh very well thank you that's really lovely very well thank you that's really lovely very well thank you that's really lovely that you're you're enjoying oh very much that you're you're enjoying oh very much that you're you're enjoying oh very much and of course people may also know you and of course people may also know you and of course people may also know you from uh your role in Assassin's Creed from uh your role in Assassin's Creed from uh your role in Assassin's Creed Origins as Bak of siwa uh of the 13 Origins as Bak of siwa uh of the 13 Origins as Bak of siwa uh of the 13 Assassin's Creed games the mainline Assassin's Creed games the mainline Assassin's Creed games the mainline games it is consistently top one or two games it is consistently top one or two games it is consistently top one or two really really and it all comes down to really really and it all comes down to really really and it all comes down to your your voice your your voice your your voice acting my I'm not just gushing my family acting my I'm not just gushing my family acting my I'm not just gushing my family also very much enjoyed you in Raised by also very much enjoyed you in Raised by also very much enjoyed you in Raised by Wolves amazing it it took me a while to Wolves amazing it it took me a while to Wolves amazing it it took me a while to put that together I mean that is I think put that together I mean that is I think put that together I mean that is I think that is a compliment as an actor right that is a compliment as an actor right that is a compliment as an actor right like wait a second that's the same guy like wait a second that's the same guy like wait a second that's the same guy the same the same the same form Med I mean that was a physicality form Med I mean that was a physicality form Med I mean that was a physicality to that one that I didn't realize it was to that one that I didn't realize it was to that one that I didn't realize it was all the same guy hey man if I'm if I'm all the same guy hey man if I'm if I'm all the same guy hey man if I'm if I'm not transforming I'm not doing my job not transforming I'm not doing my job not transforming I'm not doing my job yeah so um I am a big Metroid Vania yeah so um I am a big Metroid Vania yeah so um I am a big Metroid Vania person like since jump and the last I person like since jump and the last I person like since jump and the last I would say maybe three or four years would say maybe three or four years would say maybe three or four years maybe five years it's been a a maybe five years it's been a a maybe five years it's been a a Renaissance of sorts in the Metroid Renaissance of sorts in the Metroid Renaissance of sorts in the Metroid Vania Spains with Metroid dread we just Vania Spains with Metroid dread we just Vania Spains with Metroid dread we just saw Prince of Persia come out with the saw Prince of Persia come out with the saw Prince of Persia come out with the Metroid Vania like why make a Metroid Metroid Vania like why make a Metroid Metroid Vania like why make a Metroid Vania now is it a is it a crowd Place Vania now is it a is it a crowd Place Vania now is it a is it a crowd Place yeah I mean I don't so I think the way

yeah I mean I don't so I think the way yeah I mean I don't so I think the way that i' i' sort of approached it is like that i' i' sort of approached it is like that i' i' sort of approached it is like again you know I was I'm very much led again you know I was I'm very much led again you know I was I'm very much led by story I'm very much led by you know by story I'm very much led by you know by story I'm very much led by you know trying to use the art form to kind of trying to use the art form to kind of trying to use the art form to kind of deliver a message and so for me really deliver a message and so for me really deliver a message and so for me really choosing the the genre of the choosing the the genre of the choosing the the genre of the metroidvania genre was because I felt metroidvania genre was because I felt metroidvania genre was because I felt like it was the best way of kind of like it was the best way of kind of like it was the best way of kind of showing grief because again you know showing grief because again you know showing grief because again you know you're throwing a character in the you're throwing a character in the you're throwing a character in the middle of nowhere they have no idea like middle of nowhere they have no idea like middle of nowhere they have no idea like it's alien world it feels hostile it's alien world it feels hostile it's alien world it feels hostile dangerous they can't prepare for it but dangerous they can't prepare for it but dangerous they can't prepare for it but the longer you spend time in it the more the longer you spend time in it the more the longer you spend time in it the more comfortable you get right and I think comfortable you get right and I think comfortable you get right and I think that is why I chose the genre you know that is why I chose the genre you know that is why I chose the genre you know it it kind of captures and encapsulates it it kind of captures and encapsulates it it kind of captures and encapsulates that feeling of grief in the best way that feeling of grief in the best way that feeling of grief in the best way possible um really and I you know the possible um really and I you know the possible um really and I you know the thing is it's like yeah I think we're thing is it's like yeah I think we're thing is it's like yeah I think we're very fortunate to be in in a time right very fortunate to be in in a time right very fortunate to be in in a time right now where like you know the Metroid now where like you know the Metroid now where like you know the Metroid Venia genre is almost you know it's Venia genre is almost you know it's Venia genre is almost you know it's coming to people who never played coming to people who never played coming to people who never played Metroid vas before as well and I think Metroid vas before as well and I think Metroid vas before as well and I think that's what's really cool about it right that's what's really cool about it right that's what's really cool about it right because it it gives audiences and because it it gives audiences and because it it gives audiences and players a a new space to jump into that players a a new space to jump into that players a a new space to jump into that it feels almost um what's the word it it it feels almost um what's the word it it it feels almost um what's the word it it feels like a you know like a callback to feels like a you know like a callback to feels like a you know like a callback to the old times but at the same time it it the old times but at the same time it it the old times but at the same time it it it feels fresh and new which is really it feels fresh and new which is really it feels fresh and new which is really cool and like as you said like you got cool and like as you said like you got cool and like as you said like you got games like for example uh you know games like for example uh you know games like for example uh you know Prince of Persia which is you know very Prince of Persia which is you know very Prince of Persia which is you know very much like this is like highend kind of much like this is like highend kind of much like this is like highend kind of you know what you know what companies you know what you know what companies you know what you know what companies can do in that in in that sort of space

can do in that in in that sort of space can do in that in in that sort of space and then you've got games like either and then you've got games like either and then you've got games like either like Holo Knight or or even like the like Holo Knight or or even like the like Holo Knight or or even like the messenger right or even alboy to a messenger right or even alboy to a messenger right or even alboy to a degree um where it it's a lot more degree um where it it's a lot more degree um where it it's a lot more smaller but it's still kind of um pays smaller but it's still kind of um pays smaller but it's still kind of um pays homage to the genre in in the best way homage to the genre in in the best way homage to the genre in in the best way yeah it feels like we're in the Golden yeah it feels like we're in the Golden yeah it feels like we're in the Golden Age of Metroid vanas and I that as Age of Metroid vanas and I that as Age of Metroid vanas and I that as someone who played Metroid like when it someone who played Metroid like when it someone who played Metroid like when it came out oh amazing amazing yeah now the came out oh amazing amazing yeah now the came out oh amazing amazing yeah now the grief that we're talking about the grief grief that we're talking about the grief grief that we're talking about the grief that you alluded to was the untimely that you alluded to was the untimely that you alluded to was the untimely death of your father Yes and when death of your father Yes and when death of your father Yes and when something like that happens uh your life something like that happens uh your life something like that happens uh your life is is bisected into the Before Time and is is bisected into the Before Time and is is bisected into the Before Time and in the after time it it really is yeah in the after time it it really is yeah in the after time it it really is yeah my uh my wife uh is uh an inell from my uh my wife uh is uh an inell from my uh my wife uh is uh an inell from Zimbabwe we've been married for 25 years Zimbabwe we've been married for 25 years Zimbabwe we've been married for 25 years oh wow her we this is a total oh wow her we this is a total oh wow her we this is a total coincidence but I ended up getting Tales coincidence but I ended up getting Tales coincidence but I ended up getting Tales of Kera Sao uh within a day or two of of Kera Sao uh within a day or two of of Kera Sao uh within a day or two of the 20th anniversary of her father's the 20th anniversary of her father's the 20th anniversary of her father's death so wow with me playing the game death so wow with me playing the game death so wow with me playing the game and her watching the game she was just and her watching the game she was just and her watching the game she was just kind of you know doing her phone thing kind of you know doing her phone thing kind of you know doing her phone thing and I'm playing the game and she starts and I'm playing the game and she starts and I'm playing the game and she starts hearing familiar words hang on a second hearing familiar words hang on a second hearing familiar words hang on a second who who is that and and then we started who who is that and and then we started who who is that and and then we started talking about the game and it was just a talking about the game and it was just a talking about the game and it was just a very kind of strange uh you know very kind of strange uh you know very kind of strange uh you know constellation of everything intersecting constellation of everything intersecting constellation of everything intersecting at the same time and I was like yeah he at the same time and I was like yeah he at the same time and I was like yeah he made this game because this is the made this game because this is the made this game because this is the strange world that he's been thrown into strange world that he's been thrown into strange world that he's been thrown into suddenly after your father died you suddenly after your father died you suddenly after your father died you could have made a film but you I know

could have made a film but you I know could have made a film but you I know and it's because mainly the reason why I and it's because mainly the reason why I and it's because mainly the reason why I did a game because my father introduced did a game because my father introduced did a game because my father introduced me to games you know it was it was if me to games you know it was it was if me to games you know it was it was if again I wanted to make something that again I wanted to make something that again I wanted to make something that honestly respected him honestly I kind honestly respected him honestly I kind honestly respected him honestly I kind of paid how much to myself as well to a of paid how much to myself as well to a of paid how much to myself as well to a degree of what I'm going through you degree of what I'm going through you degree of what I'm going through you know I I I remember the game I was know I I I remember the game I was know I I I remember the game I was playing the day I found out he was playing the day I found out he was playing the day I found out he was passing it was The Witcher 3 and like passing it was The Witcher 3 and like passing it was The Witcher 3 and like you know this is the thing and like I it you know this is the thing and like I it you know this is the thing and like I it it was one of those ones where games it was one of those ones where games it was one of those ones where games have been so in my life and ingrained in have been so in my life and ingrained in have been so in my life and ingrained in my life especially with my father like my life especially with my father like my life especially with my father like it's just been it was just something it's just been it was just something it's just been it was just something that I I had to do and I had no idea that I I had to do and I had no idea that I I had to do and I had no idea what it meant to make a game right this what it meant to make a game right this what it meant to make a game right this is like you know the only experience is like you know the only experience is like you know the only experience I've had of games was voicing Bak right I've had of games was voicing Bak right I've had of games was voicing Bak right so the idea of making one was almost so the idea of making one was almost so the idea of making one was almost like it was alien territory but I I had like it was alien territory but I I had like it was alien territory but I I had to do it because it was the only way to to do it because it was the only way to to do it because it was the only way to to do right by him and he was a software to do right by him and he was a software to do right by him and he was a software engineer isn't that right at Xerox yes engineer isn't that right at Xerox yes engineer isn't that right at Xerox yes yeah he was a software engineer at Xerox yeah he was a software engineer at Xerox yeah he was a software engineer at Xerox we um yeah worked in Welling Garden City we um yeah worked in Welling Garden City we um yeah worked in Welling Garden City which was again like a really sort of it which was again like a really sort of it which was again like a really sort of it was his calm peaceful area which was was his calm peaceful area which was was his calm peaceful area which was really cool and he he you know C++ was really cool and he he you know C++ was really cool and he he you know C++ was his thing but he just uh he he he his thing but he just uh he he he his thing but he just uh he he he appreciated the art of games just never appreciated the art of games just never appreciated the art of games just never really kind of dove into it but he he really kind of dove into it but he he really kind of dove into it but he he allowed me to play it and and enjoy it allowed me to play it and and enjoy it allowed me to play it and and enjoy it and he listened to me whenever and you'd and he listened to me whenever and you'd and he listened to me whenever and you'd watch as well right the my my first watch as well right the my my first watch as well right the my my first first early viewer or fan my subscriber first early viewer or fan my subscriber first early viewer or fan my subscriber on Twitch that kind of thing and was was on Twitch that kind of thing and was was on Twitch that kind of thing and was was he still around when you were uh

he still around when you were uh he still around when you were uh nominated for a bafta games award no so nominated for a bafta games award no so nominated for a bafta games award no so this is the thing he passed away just this is the thing he passed away just this is the thing he passed away just before I had graduated from drama school before I had graduated from drama school before I had graduated from drama school oh W um yeah so he he wasn't able to oh W um yeah so he he wasn't able to oh W um yeah so he he wasn't able to really see I mean even before I got an really see I mean even before I got an really see I mean even before I got an agent he wasn't able to really see you agent he wasn't able to really see you agent he wasn't able to really see you know where I got to or or the work that know where I got to or or the work that know where I got to or or the work that he' essentially put into me getting he' essentially put into me getting he' essentially put into me getting getting to where I got to kind of come getting to where I got to kind of come getting to where I got to kind of come to fruition in a way yeah when my when to fruition in a way yeah when my when to fruition in a way yeah when my when my wife is thinking about her dad and my my wife is thinking about her dad and my my wife is thinking about her dad and my father is still around my dad's 80 we father is still around my dad's 80 we father is still around my dad's 80 we hear our dads in our own words and now I hear our dads in our own words and now I hear our dads in our own words and now I have a 16-year-old and an 18-year-old have a 16-year-old and an 18-year-old have a 16-year-old and an 18-year-old and I keep seeing my dad in Reflections and I keep seeing my dad in Reflections and I keep seeing my dad in Reflections you know like the it's it's his stride you know like the it's it's his stride you know like the it's it's his stride it's his hair it's his hairline right it's his hair it's his hairline right it's his hair it's his hairline right I'm curious you are you're English but I'm curious you are you're English but I'm curious you are you're English but you're first generation Kenyan the you're first generation Kenyan the you're first generation Kenyan the accent are you is are you your dad in accent are you is are you your dad in accent are you is are you your dad in this are you hearing your dad I mean all this are you hearing your dad I mean all this are you hearing your dad I mean all the time all the time I mean like I I the time all the time I mean like I I the time all the time I mean like I I can I can kind of yeah I mean definitely can I can kind of yeah I mean definitely can I can kind of yeah I mean definitely definitely pulling from him and it's definitely pulling from him and it's definitely pulling from him and it's definitely something that uh it's funny definitely something that uh it's funny definitely something that uh it's funny though even when I speak to my family though even when I speak to my family though even when I speak to my family and when I speak to even my mother like and when I speak to even my mother like and when I speak to even my mother like the accident kicks in like so it's it's the accident kicks in like so it's it's the accident kicks in like so it's it's very much a a thing so yeah it's it's very much a a thing so yeah it's it's very much a a thing so yeah it's it's funny I I do find I do even find you funny I I do find I do even find you funny I I do find I do even find you know not only only within the game Space know not only only within the game Space know not only only within the game Space but even with you know my my own but even with you know my my own but even with you know my my own daughter like I can I look at her and daughter like I can I look at her and daughter like I can I look at her and I'm like oh my God you were exactly like I'm like oh my God you were exactly like I'm like oh my God you were exactly like my father like I can see like the way my father like I can see like the way my father like I can see like the way you that you Furrow your brow the you

you that you Furrow your brow the you you that you Furrow your brow the you know the way you are the way you even know the way you are the way you even know the way you are the way you even walk as well like it's it's very it's walk as well like it's it's very it's walk as well like it's it's very it's very surreal um very very surreal yeah very surreal um very very surreal yeah very surreal um very very surreal yeah it's so amazing though to be able to it's so amazing though to be able to it's so amazing though to be able to make something to create something to make something to create something to make something to create something to birth something like like a game or a birth something like like a game or a birth something like like a game or a piece of film or a piece of art uh you piece of film or a piece of art uh you piece of film or a piece of art uh you know on your own as an homage to your to know on your own as an homage to your to know on your own as an homage to your to your dad and how how long did it take to your dad and how how long did it take to your dad and how how long did it take to make the game though CU you said not a make the game though CU you said not a make the game though CU you said not a AAA game studio with all absolutely not AAA game studio with all absolutely not AAA game studio with all absolutely not no way man I mean like I would say it's no way man I mean like I would say it's no way man I mean like I would say it's funny right and I'm sure you know this funny right and I'm sure you know this funny right and I'm sure you know this as well like it took it took about four as well like it took it took about four as well like it took it took about four years from the Inception of the studio years from the Inception of the studio years from the Inception of the studio to like where we are now to make this to like where we are now to make this to like where we are now to make this game so over just a bit over four years game so over just a bit over four years game so over just a bit over four years and um really truly though the thing and um really truly though the thing and um really truly though the thing that I didn't really realize the game that I didn't really realize the game that I didn't really realize the game was made basically in a year like that was made basically in a year like that was made basically in a year like that final year of 2023 to like where we are final year of 2023 to like where we are final year of 2023 to like where we are now like that's where the the the the now like that's where the the the the now like that's where the the the the bulk of this game came to because you bulk of this game came to because you bulk of this game came to because you know a lot of the within the four years know a lot of the within the four years know a lot of the within the four years a lot of the time was spent you know me a lot of the time was spent you know me a lot of the time was spent you know me building a team from scratch me learning building a team from scratch me learning building a team from scratch me learning as well what it means to make a game you as well what it means to make a game you as well what it means to make a game you know signing the deal with with EA like know signing the deal with with EA like know signing the deal with with EA like all the admin stuff that you kind of all the admin stuff that you kind of all the admin stuff that you kind of forget about when it comes to running a forget about when it comes to running a forget about when it comes to running a business like that was really part in business like that was really part in business like that was really part in bastel the most you know the the bulk of bastel the most you know the the bulk of bastel the most you know the the bulk of essentially getting this studio up and essentially getting this studio up and essentially getting this studio up and running the game itself you know we had running the game itself you know we had running the game itself you know we had a prototype and we had like you know

a prototype and we had like you know a prototype and we had like you know elements of that and and building blocks elements of that and and building blocks elements of that and and building blocks here and there but truly like it's it's here and there but truly like it's it's here and there but truly like it's it's its fruition or it its final sort of its fruition or it its final sort of its fruition or it its final sort of elements came into that last year or a elements came into that last year or a elements came into that last year or a bit you know of of of of death bit you know of of of of death bit you know of of of of death time the the decisions that one would time the the decisions that one would time the the decisions that one would have to make from a technical have to make from a technical have to make from a technical perspective even though you're dad was a perspective even though you're dad was a perspective even though you're dad was a software engineer I don't know if you software engineer I don't know if you software engineer I don't know if you have a background in engineering at all have a background in engineering at all have a background in engineering at all no not at all I mean like I've I've no not at all I mean like I've I've no not at all I mean like I've I've always been fascinated by it but it is always been fascinated by it but it is always been fascinated by it but it is another language that terrifies me so another language that terrifies me so another language that terrifies me so then you must have there must be uh the then you must have there must be uh the then you must have there must be uh the other side which is the CTO and you are other side which is the CTO and you are other side which is the CTO and you are the CEO you must find a trusted person the CEO you must find a trusted person the CEO you must find a trusted person and that person picked a game engine and and that person picked a game engine and and that person picked a game engine and then you had to find a trusted art then you had to find a trusted art then you had to find a trusted art designer are you the showrunner at this designer are you the showrunner at this designer are you the showrunner at this point basically pretty much yeah I mean point basically pretty much yeah I mean point basically pretty much yeah I mean like the way that I've kind of been and like the way that I've kind of been and like the way that I've kind of been and behaved is very much like the creative behaved is very much like the creative behaved is very much like the creative director of show sort of person but director of show sort of person but director of show sort of person but funnily enough you know the picking the funnily enough you know the picking the funnily enough you know the picking the engine and and all that stuff again was engine and and all that stuff again was engine and and all that stuff again was very much early days like we started very much early days like we started very much early days like we started this game in unity um and then I this game in unity um and then I this game in unity um and then I remember talking to some of uh some remember talking to some of uh some remember talking to some of uh some people who worked at Epic about like people who worked at Epic about like people who worked at Epic about like unreal and what they wanted to do with unreal and what they wanted to do with unreal and what they wanted to do with it and I think you know I was like oh it and I think you know I was like oh it and I think you know I was like oh this is very exciting let's go to Unreal this is very exciting let's go to Unreal this is very exciting let's go to Unreal not realizing like you know you know the not realizing like you know you know the not realizing like you know you know the devs I then had to relearn like how to devs I then had to relearn like how to devs I then had to relearn like how to use unreal but then you know what ended use unreal but then you know what ended use unreal but then you know what ended up happening is then you ended up I up happening is then you ended up I up happening is then you ended up I ended up finding people who were you ended up finding people who were you ended up finding people who were you know specialized in unreal to kind of know specialized in unreal to kind of know specialized in unreal to kind of build in that and I found it a lot build in that and I found it a lot build in that and I found it a lot easier to kind of I you know to get used easier to kind of I you know to get used easier to kind of I you know to get used to and use um as a whole but yeah like to and use um as a whole but yeah like to and use um as a whole but yeah like even like for example like our CTO came

even like for example like our CTO came even like for example like our CTO came in like the last year of in like the last year of in like the last year of development like it was honestly development like it was honestly development like it was honestly building the team was one of those ones building the team was one of those ones building the team was one of those ones where it was a massive learning a huge where it was a massive learning a huge where it was a massive learning a huge learning because again you realize again learning because again you realize again learning because again you realize again like you have to build a space that not like you have to build a space that not like you have to build a space that not only feels secure but also you have to only feels secure but also you have to only feels secure but also you have to know what your your voices in this know what your your voices in this know what your your voices in this industry because there are a lot of industry because there are a lot of industry because there are a lot of games out there and there were a lot of games out there and there were a lot of games out there and there were a lot of indust and Studios out there you know indust and Studios out there you know indust and Studios out there you know yeah and you know I brought up Prince of yeah and you know I brought up Prince of yeah and you know I brought up Prince of Persia not just because it's a great Persia not just because it's a great Persia not just because it's a great game but it it came out like a couple of game but it it came out like a couple of game but it it came out like a couple of weeks ago it's a busy time I assume that weeks ago it's a busy time I assume that weeks ago it's a busy time I assume that you can hear Whispers that a similar and you can hear Whispers that a similar and you can hear Whispers that a similar and I say that in air quotes a similar game I say that in air quotes a similar game I say that in air quotes a similar game in the sense of a 2.5d Metroid Vania Sid in the sense of a 2.5d Metroid Vania Sid in the sense of a 2.5d Metroid Vania Sid scroller with a with a kind of a painted scroller with a with a kind of a painted scroller with a with a kind of a painted art style how do you make your game be art style how do you make your game be art style how do you make your game be recognized when this Behemoth and Jordan recognized when this Behemoth and Jordan recognized when this Behemoth and Jordan mechner is out there you know promoting mechner is out there you know promoting mechner is out there you know promoting the heck out of it but you have been the heck out of it but you have been the heck out of it but you have been noticed yeah I mean it's one of those noticed yeah I mean it's one of those noticed yeah I mean it's one of those ones where again I think I just you got ones where again I think I just you got ones where again I think I just you got to the one thing that I've realized is to the one thing that I've realized is to the one thing that I've realized is because I play a lot of games right and because I play a lot of games right and because I play a lot of games right and I the one thing that I think that I've I I the one thing that I think that I've I I the one thing that I think that I've I have missed really is essentially the have missed really is essentially the have missed really is essentially the heart in it you know I think like I've I heart in it you know I think like I've I heart in it you know I think like I've I really you know I really was I drove really you know I really was I drove really you know I really was I drove with this idea of like look even though with this idea of like look even though with this idea of like look even though this is our first game and it you know this is our first game and it you know this is our first game and it you know it it it might do well it might not the it it it might do well it might not the it it it might do well it might not the idea though is that we we're putting idea though is that we we're putting idea though is that we we're putting something out there with a lot of heart something out there with a lot of heart something out there with a lot of heart in and I think that's how you cut

in and I think that's how you cut in and I think that's how you cut through man like I think like truly like through man like I think like truly like through man like I think like truly like for me it was it was about bringing the for me it was it was about bringing the for me it was it was about bringing the artistic perspective to this because artistic perspective to this because artistic perspective to this because this is this is you know games in my this is this is you know games in my this is this is you know games in my eyes are are a technical art like a film eyes are are a technical art like a film eyes are are a technical art like a film or a TV show they are all pieces of art or a TV show they are all pieces of art or a TV show they are all pieces of art they're there to obviously entertain but they're there to obviously entertain but they're there to obviously entertain but they're Al there to kind of affect and I they're Al there to kind of affect and I they're Al there to kind of affect and I think like that was something that I think like that was something that I think like that was something that I really wanted to do now not to say that really wanted to do now not to say that really wanted to do now not to say that Prince of Persia doesn't have any heart Prince of Persia doesn't have any heart Prince of Persia doesn't have any heart it has a lot of heart and the devs have it has a lot of heart and the devs have it has a lot of heart and the devs have put a lot of care into it and you can put a lot of care into it and you can put a lot of care into it and you can see that through the work it's a it's a see that through the work it's a it's a see that through the work it's a it's a technical Masterpiece but I think like technical Masterpiece but I think like technical Masterpiece but I think like for me the one thing that I you know for me the one thing that I you know for me the one thing that I you know that I knew was going to sort of um Aid that I knew was going to sort of um Aid that I knew was going to sort of um Aid and help this was essentially being like and help this was essentially being like and help this was essentially being like look this is you know giving people more look this is you know giving people more look this is you know giving people more context I never really understood as a context I never really understood as a context I never really understood as a gamer myself that the people behind the gamer myself that the people behind the gamer myself that the people behind the machine if that makes any sense and I machine if that makes any sense and I machine if that makes any sense and I was like well I want to show people that was like well I want to show people that was like well I want to show people that you know people actually make these you know people actually make these you know people actually make these things you know there are actually human things you know there are actually human things you know there are actually human beings behind this and they're driven by beings behind this and they're driven by beings behind this and they're driven by emotion and driven by wanting to do emotion and driven by wanting to do emotion and driven by wanting to do something really you know different and something really you know different and something really you know different and so that was you know that was sort of so that was you know that was sort of so that was you know that was sort of the the the the you know from the GetGo the the the the you know from the GetGo the the the the you know from the GetGo where we kind of were driving from and where we kind of were driving from and where we kind of were driving from and that I feel aided us essentially being that I feel aided us essentially being that I feel aided us essentially being different you know in a way of like different you know in a way of like different you know in a way of like being like Oh yeah it's it's it's the being like Oh yeah it's it's it's the being like Oh yeah it's it's it's the game you know by that guy who went on game you know by that guy who went on game you know by that guy who went on the stage of the game awards and nearly the stage of the game awards and nearly the stage of the game awards and nearly cried you know what I mean yeah one of cried you know what I mean yeah one of cried you know what I mean yeah one of the other things that's interesting is a the other things that's interesting is a the other things that's interesting is a lot of these games uh build a uh a lot of these games uh build a uh a lot of these games uh build a uh a Mythos they build lore and a lot of the Mythos they build lore and a lot of the Mythos they build lore and a lot of the lore is just pulled out of you know

lore is just pulled out of you know lore is just pulled out of you know pulled out of nowhere uh you know you pulled out of nowhere uh you know you pulled out of nowhere uh you know you did some work on a uh Game of Thrones did some work on a uh Game of Thrones did some work on a uh Game of Thrones spin-off and you know certainly George spin-off and you know certainly George spin-off and you know certainly George RR Martin Mak stuff up right he just RR Martin Mak stuff up right he just RR Martin Mak stuff up right he just makes up words yeah but I was about an makes up words yeah but I was about an makes up words yeah but I was about an hour and the game and I started thinking hour and the game and I started thinking hour and the game and I started thinking hang on a second impundulu this is a hang on a second impundulu this is a hang on a second impundulu this is a real thing like yes impundulu it's a real thing like yes impundulu it's a real thing like yes impundulu it's a lightning bird it's like a Zulu myth lightning bird it's like a Zulu myth lightning bird it's like a Zulu myth there's a bontu mythology throughout there's a bontu mythology throughout there's a bontu mythology throughout this but it seems like you're kind of this but it seems like you're kind of this but it seems like you're kind of fast and loose isn't the word you are fast and loose isn't the word you are fast and loose isn't the word you are liberal in that you you pick from here liberal in that you you pick from here liberal in that you you pick from here in this country and a little bit of in this country and a little bit of in this country and a little bit of Zambia a little bit of Kenya because I'm Zambia a little bit of Kenya because I'm Zambia a little bit of Kenya because I'm like is this Swahili well hang on the like is this Swahili well hang on the like is this Swahili well hang on the words are Swahili but he's picking a words are Swahili but he's picking a words are Swahili but he's picking a little Zulu here yeah is this is this little Zulu here yeah is this is this little Zulu here yeah is this is this all of like help me understand that like all of like help me understand that like all of like help me understand that like help me it's not one country it's help me it's not one country it's help me it's not one country it's something else no it's it's so for me it something else no it's it's so for me it something else no it's it's so for me it was important again to to pull from uh was important again to to pull from uh was important again to to pull from uh you know different banto spaces that not you know different banto spaces that not you know different banto spaces that not only inspired me on my journey of only inspired me on my journey of only inspired me on my journey of essentially wanting to tell the story so essentially wanting to tell the story so essentially wanting to tell the story so like for example filming in South Africa like for example filming in South Africa like for example filming in South Africa when I was doing Raised by Wolves and when I was doing Raised by Wolves and when I was doing Raised by Wolves and talking to the people there there was a talking to the people there there was a talking to the people there there was a feel you know there was a real feeling feel you know there was a real feeling feel you know there was a real feeling of learning a lot as I was out there you of learning a lot as I was out there you of learning a lot as I was out there you know talking to sanas as well out there know talking to sanas as well out there know talking to sanas as well out there and learning about the you know the and learning about the you know the and learning about the you know the elements of spirituality and healing in elements of spirituality and healing in elements of spirituality and healing in that in that Essence it was it was that in that Essence it was it was that in that Essence it was it was important for me to pull from these important for me to pull from these important for me to pull from these spaces to then Inspire other people to spaces to then Inspire other people to spaces to then Inspire other people to be like I wonder if this is real or not be like I wonder if this is real or not be like I wonder if this is real or not Google it realize that it is real and be Google it realize that it is real and be Google it realize that it is real and be like I want to learn more because again like I want to learn more because again like I want to learn more because again this is the this is the richness and this is the this is the richness and this is the this is the richness and beauty of of es you know specifically

beauty of of es you know specifically beauty of of es you know specifically with Bantu myth you know we don't even with Bantu myth you know we don't even with Bantu myth you know we don't even get me started on yobba but like it's get me started on yobba but like it's get me started on yobba but like it's like you know there is there is so like you know there is there is so like you know there is there is so there's so many stories and so many there's so many stories and so many there's so many stories and so many characters and so many um beings to sort characters and so many um beings to sort characters and so many um beings to sort of get introduced to I rather than give of get introduced to I rather than give of get introduced to I rather than give you one you know side I want to give you you one you know side I want to give you you one you know side I want to give you as much as I can yeah yeah and it's so as much as I can yeah yeah and it's so as much as I can yeah yeah and it's so cool to me that you didn't have to make cool to me that you didn't have to make cool to me that you didn't have to make up a bunch of stuff again with all due up a bunch of stuff again with all due up a bunch of stuff again with all due respect to our friends at Game of respect to our friends at Game of respect to our friends at Game of Thrones but like just digging into like Thrones but like just digging into like Thrones but like just digging into like asan which is a traditional healer in asan which is a traditional healer in asan which is a traditional healer in South Africa and Ahmad Loi and the the South Africa and Ahmad Loi and the the South Africa and Ahmad Loi and the the the the ghosts of your ancestors and the the ghosts of your ancestors and the the ghosts of your ancestors and this is all real stuff however we have a this is all real stuff however we have a this is all real stuff however we have a dozens or maybe even thousands of games dozens or maybe even thousands of games dozens or maybe even thousands of games that do oh it's Zeus again oh you know that do oh it's Zeus again oh you know that do oh it's Zeus again oh you know what I mean like we've all got that what I mean like we've all got that what I mean like we've all got that Northern Northern Northern Hemisphere Gods Pantheon I don't know Hemisphere Gods Pantheon I don't know Hemisphere Gods Pantheon I don't know how many Assassin's Creed games there how many Assassin's Creed games there how many Assassin's Creed games there are with there's somebody involved from are with there's somebody involved from are with there's somebody involved from northern exactly exactly and this is northern exactly exactly and this is northern exactly exactly and this is this is the thing like for me and again this is the thing like for me and again this is the thing like for me and again I I I remember people being like um oh I I I remember people being like um oh I I I remember people being like um oh are you doing it because of Black are you doing it because of Black are you doing it because of Black Panther and I'm like well not really I'm Panther and I'm like well not really I'm Panther and I'm like well not really I'm just doing it because it's my just doing it because it's my just doing it because it's my perspective like I'm in the driving seat perspective like I'm in the driving seat perspective like I'm in the driving seat I can actually you know make these I can actually you know make these I can actually you know make these decisions and you know a lot of the decisions and you know a lot of the decisions and you know a lot of the stories that my father you know would stories that my father you know would stories that my father you know would would would give me were very much would would give me were very much would would give me were very much inspired by these spaces and places you inspired by these spaces and places you inspired by these spaces and places you know when I was in South Africa for know when I was in South Africa for know when I was in South Africa for example I was asking these questions example I was asking these questions example I was asking these questions because I'm in South Africa and you know because I'm in South Africa and you know because I'm in South Africa and you know you know my my friends are either Zulu

you know my my friends are either Zulu you know my my friends are either Zulu or CLA you know so it makes just sense or CLA you know so it makes just sense or CLA you know so it makes just sense to for me when it comes to telling to for me when it comes to telling to for me when it comes to telling stories I'm coming at it from this stories I'm coming at it from this stories I'm coming at it from this perspective rather than necessarily like perspective rather than necessarily like perspective rather than necessarily like the nor myth or the Greek myth or the nor myth or the Greek myth or the nor myth or the Greek myth or anything like that you know because I anything like that you know because I anything like that you know because I and yeah you're right there is a lot of and yeah you're right there is a lot of and yeah you're right there is a lot of Norse mythology you know Greek mythology Norse mythology you know Greek mythology Norse mythology you know Greek mythology games and you know even sometimes Celtic games and you know even sometimes Celtic games and you know even sometimes Celtic but like truly it's about again that's but like truly it's about again that's but like truly it's about again that's just you know what they are interested just you know what they are interested just you know what they are interested in or their perspective and and that's in or their perspective and and that's in or their perspective and and that's totally fine and cool to do it's just totally fine and cool to do it's just totally fine and cool to do it's just this is this is my vibe now yeah and I this is this is my vibe now yeah and I this is this is my vibe now yeah and I think also it's a rich vein it's a huge think also it's a rich vein it's a huge think also it's a rich vein it's a huge untapped storytelling world that has not untapped storytelling world that has not untapped storytelling world that has not been seen and I have to give you credit been seen and I have to give you credit been seen and I have to give you credit in the credit because it is easy to have in the credit because it is easy to have in the credit because it is easy to have fallen it would have been easy to fall fallen it would have been easy to fall fallen it would have been easy to fall in the oh it's like a Black Panther game in the oh it's like a Black Panther game in the oh it's like a Black Panther game because people are excited about a because people are excited about a because people are excited about a completely completely completely fictional African nation that doesn't fictional African nation that doesn't fictional African nation that doesn't exist and we all love black panther and exist and we all love black panther and exist and we all love black panther and black panther 2 but you know like they black panther 2 but you know like they black panther 2 but you know like they speak because that that's what you know speak because that that's what you know speak because that that's what you know his dad spoke the the South African his dad spoke the the South African his dad spoke the the South African actor spoke like okay we'll just do that actor spoke like okay we'll just do that actor spoke like okay we'll just do that they kind of adopted little pieces yeah they kind of adopted little pieces yeah they kind of adopted little pieces yeah you really stay true to these myths and you really stay true to these myths and you really stay true to these myths and it sent me down a Wikipedia rabbit hole it sent me down a Wikipedia rabbit hole it sent me down a Wikipedia rabbit hole that's the that was it that was I'm done that's the that was it that was I'm done that's the that was it that was I'm done I'm done I can sign ACC mission I'm done I can sign ACC mission I'm done I can sign ACC mission accomplished yeah exactly I honestly I accomplished yeah exactly I honestly I accomplished yeah exactly I honestly I remember telling the team like look as remember telling the team like look as remember telling the team like look as long if we can get anyone or convince long if we can get anyone or convince long if we can get anyone or convince anyone to go down a Wiki Wormhole we've anyone to go down a Wiki Wormhole we've anyone to go down a Wiki Wormhole we've done our job that's it yeah and and I'm

done our job that's it yeah and and I'm done our job that's it yeah and and I'm talking to like our our family in South talking to like our our family in South talking to like our our family in South Africa in Zimbabwe and I'm asking them Africa in Zimbabwe and I'm asking them Africa in Zimbabwe and I'm asking them about myths and some of them don't about myths and some of them don't about myths and some of them don't remember them and they're like well yeah remember them and they're like well yeah remember them and they're like well yeah I kind of remember them so it's actually I kind of remember them so it's actually I kind of remember them so it's actually digging up previous memories of things digging up previous memories of things digging up previous memories of things that they were told when were five or that they were told when were five or that they were told when were five or six but but aren't you know in this kind six but but aren't you know in this kind six but but aren't you know in this kind of postcolonial world we don't really of postcolonial world we don't really of postcolonial world we don't really think about them as much no no and now think about them as much no no and now think about them as much no no and now we are again and I just think it's so we are again and I just think it's so we are again and I just think it's so cool to have have you know I don't know cool to have have you know I don't know cool to have have you know I don't know I don't know why I assumed that it was I don't know why I assumed that it was I don't know why I assumed that it was just made up and then I was like because just made up and then I was like because just made up and then I was like because I've been like I said I've been married I've been like I said I've been married I've been like I said I've been married to a inell for 25 years like I I can to a inell for 25 years like I I can to a inell for 25 years like I I can speak the language like a 5-year-old so speak the language like a 5-year-old so speak the language like a 5-year-old so I'm like hang on a second this is all I'm like hang on a second this is all I'm like hang on a second this is all this is why he because we actually this is why he because we actually this is why he because we actually stayed in um now I'm off on a tangent stayed in um now I'm off on a tangent stayed in um now I'm off on a tangent now we stayed in we spent time in now we stayed in we spent time in now we stayed in we spent time in Nairobi and also in parts of Tanzania Nairobi and also in parts of Tanzania Nairobi and also in parts of Tanzania because my sister-in-law worked at the because my sister-in-law worked at the because my sister-in-law worked at the un ictr uh at the at the tribunal there un ictr uh at the at the tribunal there un ictr uh at the at the tribunal there so we driven from aroua all the way up so we driven from aroua all the way up so we driven from aroua all the way up through and across the border so we've through and across the border so we've through and across the border so we've been all over the the continent and I've been all over the the continent and I've been all over the the continent and I've got all these the meter of speech and got all these the meter of speech and got all these the meter of speech and all of these these these these words and all of these these these these words and all of these these these these words and these pieces in in our heads and for now these pieces in in our heads and for now these pieces in in our heads and for now me to be able to share the game with my me to be able to share the game with my me to be able to share the game with my wife and with my kids wife and with my kids wife and with my kids who have a foot in each really cool who have a foot in each really cool who have a foot in each really cool right right right that's yeah because I mean yeah it's that's yeah because I mean yeah it's that's yeah because I mean yeah it's that idea for me it's it's again it's that idea for me it's it's again it's that idea for me it's it's again it's it's like these stories a lot of these it's like these stories a lot of these it's like these stories a lot of these stories aren't necessarily remembered stories aren't necessarily remembered stories aren't necessarily remembered because they're mainly You Know spoken because they're mainly You Know spoken because they're mainly You Know spoken like that's the that's the thing about like that's the that's the thing about like that's the that's the thing about banto Tales they they're it's an oral banto Tales they they're it's an oral banto Tales they they're it's an oral storytelling tradition G for example you

storytelling tradition G for example you storytelling tradition G for example you know would be and and I think like know would be and and I think like know would be and and I think like that's how it can easily be forgotten that's how it can easily be forgotten that's how it can easily be forgotten like only rarely are there some books like only rarely are there some books like only rarely are there some books and you know either the books are and you know either the books are and you know either the books are written by you know people who kind of written by you know people who kind of written by you know people who kind of get it but don't but then they all get it but don't but then they all get it but don't but then they all they're written you know but I've got they're written you know but I've got they're written you know but I've got the a book by kredo muta which was uh the a book by kredo muta which was uh the a book by kredo muta which was uh you know he was also a s who you know WR you know he was also a s who you know WR you know he was also a s who you know WR these stories but then again they're all these stories but then again they're all these stories but then again they're all perspectives right and this is the perspectives right and this is the perspectives right and this is the beauty of the oral storytelling beauty of the oral storytelling beauty of the oral storytelling tradition it's like you would tell me a tradition it's like you would tell me a tradition it's like you would tell me a story um and I would then you know you story um and I would then you know you story um and I would then you know you might have the impundu as like you know might have the impundu as like you know might have the impundu as like you know as a small you know lightning bird I'd as a small you know lightning bird I'd as a small you know lightning bird I'd go and tell my daughter and it's this go and tell my daughter and it's this go and tell my daughter and it's this huge thing you know what I mean and so huge thing you know what I mean and so huge thing you know what I mean and so like that's you know that's that was the like that's you know that's that was the like that's you know that's that was the beauty of it as well you could change beauty of it as well you could change beauty of it as well you could change bits and make it your own and and play bits and make it your own and and play bits and make it your own and and play with it that way so that was something with it that way so that was something with it that way so that was something that was you know really important to that was you know really important to that was you know really important to kind of do as well was to kind of have kind of do as well was to kind of have kind of do as well was to kind of have this element of oral storytelling to the this element of oral storytelling to the this element of oral storytelling to the game as a whole yeah do you think that game as a whole yeah do you think that game as a whole yeah do you think that um this is a moment though for for I um this is a moment though for for I um this is a moment though for for I mean I know this was made was this made mean I know this was made was this made mean I know this was made was this made in uh in England where is your studio in uh in England where is your studio in uh in England where is your studio located yeah I mean we're we're a remote located yeah I mean we're we're a remote located yeah I mean we're we're a remote studio so it you know it was it was studio so it you know it was it was studio so it you know it was it was important yeah it was important for me important yeah it was important for me important yeah it was important for me you know a lot of the you know concept you know a lot of the you know concept you know a lot of the you know concept art when I started this game again no art when I started this game again no art when I started this game again no idea what it means to make a game all I idea what it means to make a game all I idea what it means to make a game all I knew is that you need a really cool art knew is that you need a really cool art knew is that you need a really cool art right to begin with a lot of the concept right to begin with a lot of the concept right to begin with a lot of the concept art where we started was done by um an art where we started was done by um an art where we started was done by um an artist called Godwin akpan who's in artist called Godwin akpan who's in artist called Godwin akpan who's in Nigeria um you know now we've got uh Nigeria um you know now we've got uh Nigeria um you know now we've got uh Tumo who's in bwana um Idris as well Tumo who's in bwana um Idris as well Tumo who's in bwana um Idris as well Ibrahim Idis who's also in Nigeria like Ibrahim Idis who's also in Nigeria like Ibrahim Idis who's also in Nigeria like South African Artist as well did a lot South African Artist as well did a lot South African Artist as well did a lot of the work while we were you know 3D of the work while we were you know 3D of the work while we were you know 3D work as well like it we're we're all

work as well like it we're we're all work as well like it we're we're all over the place you know got people in over the place you know got people in over the place you know got people in New York you know we had people working New York you know we had people working New York you know we had people working in France we've got you know mainly spe in France we've got you know mainly spe in France we've got you know mainly spe like mainly people are in England But like mainly people are in England But like mainly people are in England But ultimately we're a remote Studio that's ultimately we're a remote Studio that's ultimately we're a remote Studio that's amazing and like say what you will about amazing and like say what you will about amazing and like say what you will about covid but it made remote work happen oh covid but it made remote work happen oh covid but it made remote work happen oh man it really did we're doing this man it really did we're doing this man it really did we're doing this remotely borders don't matter anymore remotely borders don't matter anymore remotely borders don't matter anymore yeah that's basically and you know the yeah that's basically and you know the yeah that's basically and you know the thing is like we were always going to be thing is like we were always going to be thing is like we were always going to be a remote a remote a remote Studio what it it was kind of like a by Studio what it it was kind of like a by Studio what it it was kind of like a by chance that Co hit and was like oh well chance that Co hit and was like oh well chance that Co hit and was like oh well this is the normal way of working now so this is the normal way of working now so this is the normal way of working now so yeah yeah yeah um one of the things I yeah yeah yeah um one of the things I yeah yeah yeah um one of the things I wanted to dig into a little bit is wanted to dig into a little bit is wanted to dig into a little bit is the the feel the the part that blows me the the feel the the part that blows me the the feel the the part that blows me away the most about a game is that away the most about a game is that away the most about a game is that there's a loop an inner loop that they there's a loop an inner loop that they there's a loop an inner loop that they call the game pay Loop gameplay loop call the game pay Loop gameplay loop call the game pay Loop gameplay loop it's it's hard to explain especially on it's it's hard to explain especially on it's it's hard to explain especially on a podcast but do your hands feel right a podcast but do your hands feel right a podcast but do your hands feel right does your body move correctly do you does your body move correctly do you does your body move correctly do you lean forward when you're trying to make lean forward when you're trying to make lean forward when you're trying to make a certain wall jump and are you know is a certain wall jump and are you know is a certain wall jump and are you know is the is this the left bumper is that what the is this the left bumper is that what the is this the left bumper is that what it should do or should it be the right it should do or should it be the right it should do or should it be the right bumper what makes your hands feel right bumper what makes your hands feel right bumper what makes your hands feel right there's some punishing platforming in there's some punishing platforming in there's some punishing platforming in this game I know I mean I I was in in this game I know I mean I I was in in this game I know I mean I I was in in act one trying to get up to the bobob act one trying to get up to the bobob act one trying to get up to the bobob tree yeah I spent probably 20 minutes tree yeah I spent probably 20 minutes tree yeah I spent probably 20 minutes trying to wall jump there and I'm trying to wall jump there and I'm trying to wall jump there and I'm thinking to myself like am I I felt like thinking to myself like am I I felt like thinking to myself like am I I felt like I was competing against you because I was competing against you because I was competing against you because you're in a room somewhere talking about you're in a room somewhere talking about you're in a room somewhere talking about milliseconds with the team yeah trying milliseconds with the team yeah trying milliseconds with the team yeah trying to decide the right amount of to decide the right amount of to decide the right amount of milliseconds for you to have that window milliseconds for you to have that window milliseconds for you to have that window to press the button are you deciding to press the button are you deciding to press the button are you deciding those things are the team deciding that

those things are the team deciding that those things are the team deciding that the feel of it in your the feel of it in your the feel of it in your hands feel a certain way it's it's it's hands feel a certain way it's it's it's hands feel a certain way it's it's it's a mix of both you know I I you know for a mix of both you know I I you know for a mix of both you know I I you know for me I really told the team like I mean me I really told the team like I mean me I really told the team like I mean it's like you okay put it this way the it's like you okay put it this way the it's like you okay put it this way the the team that I formed have have never the team that I formed have have never the team that I formed have have never really built a Metroid Vania before and really built a Metroid Vania before and really built a Metroid Vania before and they've never built a sidescroller they've never built a sidescroller they've never built a sidescroller before they are you know most of the before they are you know most of the before they are you know most of the team are are very much developers who team are are very much developers who team are are very much developers who come from you know either like the come from you know either like the come from you know either like the Hitman series or you know or big sort of Hitman series or you know or big sort of Hitman series or you know or big sort of you know like yeah it's it's very it's you know like yeah it's it's very it's you know like yeah it's it's very it's it this is like the first time so this it this is like the first time so this it this is like the first time so this is also why I was like I'm going to is also why I was like I'm going to is also why I was like I'm going to throw everyone in the deep end so you throw everyone in the deep end so you throw everyone in the deep end so you know one of the things that they're very know one of the things that they're very know one of the things that they're very what we were good at though or what we what we were good at though or what we what we were good at though or what we wanted to do was we wanted to kind of wanted to do was we wanted to kind of wanted to do was we wanted to kind of capture this element capture this element capture this element of it feeling like a dance but at the of it feeling like a dance but at the of it feeling like a dance but at the same time you have to be precise you same time you have to be precise you same time you have to be precise you know and I think like that is that is know and I think like that is that is know and I think like that is that is what has been key to conveying this what has been key to conveying this what has been key to conveying this feeling of grief of the Journey of grief feeling of grief of the Journey of grief feeling of grief of the Journey of grief the feeling that it does feel like the feeling that it does feel like the feeling that it does feel like you're kind of in this you know this you're kind of in this you know this you're kind of in this you know this loud L Music like you know the music is loud L Music like you know the music is loud L Music like you know the music is pumping it's crazy you kind of there's a pumping it's crazy you kind of there's a pumping it's crazy you kind of there's a lot of noise but but if you really focus lot of noise but but if you really focus lot of noise but but if you really focus you can hear the beat of the drum and you can hear the beat of the drum and you can hear the beat of the drum and that's how you essentially figure out that's how you essentially figure out that's how you essentially figure out and find the way of jumping dashing jump and find the way of jumping dashing jump and find the way of jumping dashing jump jump Dash and it's like so that's why we jump Dash and it's like so that's why we jump Dash and it's like so that's why we really want that's what we really wanted really want that's what we really wanted really want that's what we really wanted to do it's almost like a lot of the to do it's almost like a lot of the to do it's almost like a lot of the people who I find myself anyway when I people who I find myself anyway when I people who I find myself anyway when I play play play games um sometimes you attack the

games um sometimes you attack the games um sometimes you attack the controller and the more you kind of get controller and the more you kind of get controller and the more you kind of get frustrated the more attacking you you frustrated the more attacking you you frustrated the more attacking you you you the more you kind of keep attacking you the more you kind of keep attacking you the more you kind of keep attacking the controller well naturally the way to the controller well naturally the way to the controller well naturally the way to kind of beat this is the opposite every kind of beat this is the opposite every kind of beat this is the opposite every time you fail you get karma because time you fail you get karma because time you fail you get karma because that's essentially the way again that's that's essentially the way again that's that's essentially the way again that's that journey of grief oh man uh people that journey of grief oh man uh people that journey of grief oh man uh people can't see me or maybe they will if they can't see me or maybe they will if they can't see me or maybe they will if they put if I put this on YouTube but like put if I put this on YouTube but like put if I put this on YouTube but like you just blew my mind so I've been you just blew my mind so I've been you just blew my mind so I've been playing this for the last several you playing this for the last several you playing this for the last several you know weeks since it came out but I know weeks since it came out but I know weeks since it came out but I played it for the last two hours played it for the last two hours played it for the last two hours literally right up until five minutes literally right up until five minutes literally right up until five minutes before you came on because I wanted to before you came on because I wanted to before you came on because I wanted to have the feeling in my hands and I was have the feeling in my hands and I was have the feeling in my hands and I was going up and down this freaking this one going up and down this freaking this one going up and down this freaking this one section where you have to not wall jump section where you have to not wall jump section where you have to not wall jump two or three times but it's precise wall two or three times but it's precise wall two or three times but it's precise wall jump wall jump half of a double jump jump wall jump half of a double jump jump wall jump half of a double jump smash over you know just it was very and smash over you know just it was very and smash over you know just it was very and I was getting so angry and then I end up I was getting so angry and then I end up I was getting so angry and then I end up on an elevator where there's like every on an elevator where there's like every on an elevator where there's like every level is new bad guys new enemies yeah level is new bad guys new enemies yeah level is new bad guys new enemies yeah and I'm chasing after this little girl and I'm chasing after this little girl and I'm chasing after this little girl who's always one step uh away yeah and I who's always one step uh away yeah and I who's always one step uh away yeah and I was getting so freaking mad and I just I was getting so freaking mad and I just I was getting so freaking mad and I just I did it you you manipulated me you I was did it you you manipulated me you I was did it you you manipulated me you I was I was Button mashing yeah and I I was Button mashing yeah and I I was Button mashing yeah and I literally put the thing down and I went literally put the thing down and I went literally put the thing down and I went this freaking game man okay and I was this freaking game man okay and I was this freaking game man okay and I was like pop po pop pop and you're like pop po pop pop and you're like pop po pop pop and you're absolutely right and it was and it was absolutely right and it was and it was absolutely right and it was and it was not a rhythm game but it was for a not a rhythm game but it was for a not a rhythm game but it was for a moment yeah until I got to the top and moment yeah until I got to the top and moment yeah until I got to the top and then I went ah and all the tension came then I went ah and all the tension came then I went ah and all the tension came out of my shoulders and that's and out of my shoulders and that's and out of my shoulders and that's and that's the thing that's the thing like I that's the thing that's the thing like I that's the thing that's the thing like I think with with me I remember I remember think with with me I remember I remember think with with me I remember I remember again and I'm still am sometimes I have

again and I'm still am sometimes I have again and I'm still am sometimes I have my moments where I'm I'm I'm feeling so my moments where I'm I'm I'm feeling so my moments where I'm I'm I'm feeling so and I get lost in it and like you know and I get lost in it and like you know and I get lost in it and like you know and I feel like I'm getting frustrated I and I feel like I'm getting frustrated I and I feel like I'm getting frustrated I keep getting frustrated and I'm not keep getting frustrated and I'm not keep getting frustrated and I'm not being able to do it and it's only until being able to do it and it's only until being able to do it and it's only until I actually take a breather stop and just I actually take a breather stop and just I actually take a breather stop and just I'm like actually hold on I can do this I'm like actually hold on I can do this I'm like actually hold on I can do this is when you do it it's like you know is when you do it it's like you know is when you do it it's like you know it's that it's I the feeling reminiscent it's that it's I the feeling reminiscent it's that it's I the feeling reminiscent is to like when you keep failing a Sonic is to like when you keep failing a Sonic is to like when you keep failing a Sonic level or like a Mario level you know the level or like a Mario level you know the level or like a Mario level you know the more you fail it the the harder it gets more you fail it the the harder it gets more you fail it the the harder it gets because you're like oh God and you keep because you're like oh God and you keep because you're like oh God and you keep getting frustrated and you keep thinking getting frustrated and you keep thinking getting frustrated and you keep thinking about it too much when about it too much when about it too much when the trick is to not think about it yeah the trick is to not think about it yeah the trick is to not think about it yeah you know that is exactly I was I was you you know that is exactly I was I was you you know that is exactly I was I was you were evoking Mario you were evoking yeah were evoking Mario you were evoking yeah were evoking Mario you were evoking yeah uh all of these games and I could feel uh all of these games and I could feel uh all of these games and I could feel it in my hands and I was like this it in my hands and I was like this it in my hands and I was like this thing's this thing's broken there's thing's this thing's broken there's thing's this thing's broken there's there's a timing problem here there's there's a timing problem here there's there's a timing problem here there's something wrong he just adds a couple something wrong he just adds a couple something wrong he just adds a couple hundred milliseconds there it'll be fine hundred milliseconds there it'll be fine hundred milliseconds there it'll be fine and then I walked away and I stretched and then I walked away and I stretched and then I walked away and I stretched my hands and I came back and I got the my hands and I came back and I got the my hands and I came back and I got the tempo and I I made it and it was hard I tempo and I I made it and it was hard I tempo and I I made it and it was hard I mean you know the level I'm talking mean you know the level I'm talking mean you know the level I'm talking about yeah it was yeah I wouldn't say about yeah it was yeah I wouldn't say about yeah it was yeah I wouldn't say punishing because I don't like games punishing because I don't like games punishing because I don't like games that are punitive no was Unapologetic that are punitive no was Unapologetic that are punitive no was Unapologetic and there are and there are and there are Unapologetic uh instad death yes things Unapologetic uh instad death yes things Unapologetic uh instad death yes things as well which is a very conscious as well which is a very conscious as well which is a very conscious decision to make an inst I mean like decision to make an inst I mean like decision to make an inst I mean like yeah I know I it was one of those ones yeah I know I it was one of those ones yeah I know I it was one of those ones where I I think it's funny again you you where I I think it's funny again you you where I I think it's funny again you you and this is this is also something that and this is this is also something that and this is this is also something that I'm also learning right you making this I'm also learning right you making this I'm also learning right you making this game as a developer you spent four years

game as a developer you spent four years game as a developer you spent four years in this space so you play it and you in this space so you play it and you in this space so you play it and you don't really notice those elements as don't really notice those elements as don't really notice those elements as much give it to someone who's new and much give it to someone who's new and much give it to someone who's new and fresh to this whole world they're fresh to this whole world they're fresh to this whole world they're noticing it a lot you know and I think noticing it a lot you know and I think noticing it a lot you know and I think like in my mind I'm like ah okay I get like in my mind I'm like ah okay I get like in my mind I'm like ah okay I get it it's a bit like I keep thinking about it it's a bit like I keep thinking about it it's a bit like I keep thinking about the first aie for example oh yeah first the first aie for example oh yeah first the first aie for example oh yeah first the first ay was punishing especially to the first ay was punishing especially to the first ay was punishing especially to the point where you didn't have any the point where you didn't have any the point where you didn't have any checkpoints it was always to the last checkpoints it was always to the last checkpoints it was always to the last save you made so you're always thinking save you made so you're always thinking save you made so you're always thinking about that last save that you had to about that last save that you had to about that last save that you had to make because if you didn't make that make because if you didn't make that make because if you didn't make that save you would have to start all the way save you would have to start all the way save you would have to start all the way back again and it was oh my God it was back again and it was oh my God it was back again and it was oh my God it was it was horrifying so like for it was horrifying so like for it was horrifying so like for me I can imagine like the developers me I can imagine like the developers me I can imagine like the developers being like yeah this is a great idea being like yeah this is a great idea being like yeah this is a great idea this is cool and they're able to get it this is cool and they're able to get it this is cool and they're able to get it because they know the world and what it because they know the world and what it because they know the world and what it is but then when you come to a new is but then when you come to a new is but then when you come to a new player you're like oh my God this is player you're like oh my God this is player you're like oh my God this is like this is taxing you know what I mean like this is taxing you know what I mean like this is taxing you know what I mean like I got time to do this again so yeah like I got time to do this again so yeah like I got time to do this again so yeah it is very much those and look I mean it is very much those and look I mean it is very much those and look I mean like the instad death elements as well like the instad death elements as well like the instad death elements as well like truly it's it was a feeling of you like truly it's it was a feeling of you like truly it's it was a feeling of you know something that we wanted to do know something that we wanted to do know something that we wanted to do especially with platforming especially with platforming especially with platforming you don't want to Coast something you you don't want to Coast something you you don't want to Coast something you don't want to you know be able to kind don't want to you know be able to kind don't want to you know be able to kind of get knocked back and then suddenly of get knocked back and then suddenly of get knocked back and then suddenly just keep carrying on because then you just keep carrying on because then you just keep carrying on because then you don't think about what you're doing you don't think about what you're doing you don't think about what you're doing you just are like oh okay hit me and then just are like oh okay hit me and then just are like oh okay hit me and then you move on that's the thing about those you move on that's the thing about those you move on that's the thing about those Thorns the Thorns which are you know Thorns the Thorns which are you know Thorns the Thorns which are you know kind of ready pink when they knock you kind of ready pink when they knock you kind of ready pink when they knock you back a bit they take a bit of your back a bit they take a bit of your back a bit they take a bit of your health but they're not really health but they're not really health but they're not really threatening you can kind of move on but threatening you can kind of move on but threatening you can kind of move on but every time you see those really white every time you see those really white every time you see those really white spikes those instad death spikes you're spikes those instad death spikes you're spikes those instad death spikes you're like oh buddy I've got to think about like oh buddy I've got to think about like oh buddy I've got to think about this now I've got to be really careful this now I've got to be really careful this now I've got to be really careful and that invokes an

and that invokes an and that invokes an and that's the thing it invokes and that's the thing it invokes and that's the thing it invokes something in you that makes you think something in you that makes you think something in you that makes you think like I've got to really think about what like I've got to really think about what like I've got to really think about what I'm about to do here because any false I'm about to do here because any false I'm about to do here because any false move is gonna set me back that's so true move is gonna set me back that's so true move is gonna set me back that's so true and some of those spikes you like oh and some of those spikes you like oh and some of those spikes you like oh I'll just jump over them well no you I'll just jump over them well no you I'll just jump over them well no you won't because there's another one right won't because there's another one right won't because there's another one right exactly Apex of your jump exactly exactly Apex of your jump exactly exactly Apex of your jump exactly exactly exactly I'm thinking if you did exactly exactly I'm thinking if you did exactly exactly I'm thinking if you did that on that on that on purpose this is the thing but the thing purpose this is the thing but the thing purpose this is the thing but the thing is it's it's a good way also of for me is it's it's a good way also of for me is it's it's a good way also of for me because like you know I'm watching my because like you know I'm watching my because like you know I'm watching my wife play for example and it's a good wife play for example and it's a good wife play for example and it's a good way of her way of her way of her learning what you know the idea of learning what you know the idea of learning what you know the idea of actually oh yeah Precision jumping actually oh yeah Precision jumping actually oh yeah Precision jumping depending on how hard I press that x depending on how hard I press that x depending on how hard I press that x button it allows me to kind of alter the button it allows me to kind of alter the button it allows me to kind of alter the height of the jump and honestly you height of the jump and honestly you height of the jump and honestly you could see that she was doing this like could see that she was doing this like could see that she was doing this like three or four or five times she's never three or four or five times she's never three or four or five times she's never played games before but when she did it played games before but when she did it played games before but when she did it that feeling of elation she it it's it's that feeling of elation she it it's it's that feeling of elation she it it's it's you can't you can't replicate that stuff you can't you can't replicate that stuff you can't you can't replicate that stuff man yeah you really can't it's been an man yeah you really can't it's been an man yeah you really can't it's been an absolute joy to play and and I got to absolute joy to play and and I got to absolute joy to play and and I got to say like I know you said that it's say like I know you said that it's say like I know you said that it's you're a small Studio but I played you're a small Studio but I played you're a small Studio but I played Metroid dread a couple of months ago I'm Metroid dread a couple of months ago I'm Metroid dread a couple of months ago I'm in the middle of Prince of Persia uh I'm in the middle of Prince of Persia uh I'm in the middle of Prince of Persia uh I'm in the middle of tales of keroa put him in the middle of tales of keroa put him in the middle of tales of keroa put him side by side you can't tell what the side by side you can't tell what the side by side you can't tell what the triaa game is and what the single a game triaa game is and what the single a game triaa game is and what the single a game oh man thank you so much buddy honestly oh man thank you so much buddy honestly oh man thank you so much buddy honestly the last question I wanted to ask you is the last question I wanted to ask you is the last question I wanted to ask you is the the price point yeah this is a the the price point yeah this is a the the price point yeah this is a bargain for the number of hours you get bargain for the number of hours you get bargain for the number of hours you get that must a conscious decision as well that must a conscious decision as well that must a conscious decision as well yeah not a $60 game you get it for 20 30

yeah not a $60 game you get it for 20 30 yeah not a $60 game you get it for 20 30 bucks yeah 20 bucks yeah yeah yeah it bucks yeah 20 bucks yeah yeah yeah it bucks yeah 20 bucks yeah yeah yeah it was it was one of those ones again like was it was one of those ones again like was it was one of those ones again like I again you know I I'm very much aware I again you know I I'm very much aware I again you know I I'm very much aware that gaming is a is as a hobby is quite that gaming is a is as a hobby is quite that gaming is a is as a hobby is quite expensive right for for anyone I expensive right for for anyone I expensive right for for anyone I remember when I was growing up I could remember when I was growing up I could remember when I was growing up I could basically only get like one game a year basically only get like one game a year basically only get like one game a year like literally it was it was very like literally it was it was very like literally it was it was very difficult so when it came to deciding difficult so when it came to deciding difficult so when it came to deciding about what the price point is I remember about what the price point is I remember about what the price point is I remember talking to EA about this and you know talking to EA about this and you know talking to EA about this and you know talk about this this this and the other talk about this this this and the other talk about this this this and the other and we were essentially like actually and we were essentially like actually and we were essentially like actually what's the price of what's the price of what's the price of pizza you know when you order a pizza or pizza you know when you order a pizza or pizza you know when you order a pizza or you order a takeout like what's that you order a takeout like what's that you order a takeout like what's that going to be like and essentially we like going to be like and essentially we like going to be like and essentially we like oh it's about you know 20 bucks or you oh it's about you know 20 bucks or you oh it's about you know 20 bucks or you know $6.99 here for example like well know $6.99 here for example like well know $6.99 here for example like well get it make it the price of pizza think get it make it the price of pizza think get it make it the price of pizza think that people are you know are stealing that people are you know are stealing that people are you know are stealing from the company man like give them from the company man like give them from the company man like give them something really good because you don't something really good because you don't something really good because you don't feel bad when you eat a pizza like a feel bad when you eat a pizza like a feel bad when you eat a pizza like a pizza's good right so that to me was pizza's good right so that to me was pizza's good right so that to me was really important it was important to really important it was important to really important it was important to make this game as accessible as possible make this game as accessible as possible make this game as accessible as possible to as many people as possible that to as many people as possible that to as many people as possible that doesn't necessarily feel like oh I'm I'm doesn't necessarily feel like oh I'm I'm doesn't necessarily feel like oh I'm I'm I'm having to break my own bank account I'm having to break my own bank account I'm having to break my own bank account or or decide whether I'm going to do or or decide whether I'm going to do or or decide whether I'm going to do shopping for the week or buy a video shopping for the week or buy a video shopping for the week or buy a video game because I feel like that's game because I feel like that's game because I feel like that's essentially the the space that we're essentially the the space that we're essentially the the space that we're kind of jumping into a bit so yeah it kind of jumping into a bit so yeah it kind of jumping into a bit so yeah it was important to to make this a price was important to to make this a price was important to to make this a price point that felt accessible to as many point that felt accessible to as many point that felt accessible to as many people as possible but also give them people as possible but also give them people as possible but also give them the experience the experience the experience and you know the high fidelity of a game and you know the high fidelity of a game and you know the high fidelity of a game that feels good you

that feels good you that feels good you know yeah that makes sense these $70 know yeah that makes sense these $70 know yeah that makes sense these $70 games are getting out of control but games are getting out of control but games are getting out of control but crazy the number of hours of value that crazy the number of hours of value that crazy the number of hours of value that has already been provided like for the has already been provided like for the has already been provided like for the price of a pizza or a movie ticket uh price of a pizza or a movie ticket uh price of a pizza or a movie ticket uh you know it's already it's already you know it's already it's already you know it's already it's already proven itself um it has been an absolute proven itself um it has been an absolute proven itself um it has been an absolute Joy chatting with you sir I could talk Joy chatting with you sir I could talk Joy chatting with you sir I could talk to you for another hour I'm sure and I to you for another hour I'm sure and I to you for another hour I'm sure and I want to thank you for spending time with want to thank you for spending time with want to thank you for spending time with me today no thank you for having me man me today no thank you for having me man me today no thank you for having me man really really appreciate it Tales of really really appreciate it Tales of really really appreciate it Tales of Kera Zhao is available now on Nintendo Kera Zhao is available now on Nintendo Kera Zhao is available now on Nintendo switch PlayStation 5 Xbox and windows switch PlayStation 5 Xbox and windows switch PlayStation 5 Xbox and windows under the EA Originals publishing label under the EA Originals publishing label under the EA Originals publishing label you can get it everywhere that you get you can get it everywhere that you get you can get it everywhere that you get games I want to thank Abu Bakr salum for games I want to thank Abu Bakr salum for games I want to thank Abu Bakr salum for spending time with me today and this has spending time with me today and this has spending time with me today and this has been another episode of Hansel minutes been another episode of Hansel minutes been another episode of Hansel minutes and we'll see you again next week