Human Agency in a Digital World with Marcus Fontoura

A lot of people think about AI almost A lot of people think about AI almost coming from this coming from this coming from this colonization mind frame that like you colonization mind frame that like you colonization mind frame that like you know we had the is Spain conquered know we had the is Spain conquered know we had the is Spain conquered America or or now we have like maybe the America or or now we have like maybe the America or or now we have like maybe the humans will domesticate AI or AI will humans will domesticate AI or AI will humans will domesticate AI or AI will domesticate the humans and and it's domesticate the humans and and it's domesticate the humans and and it's pretty dated pretty dated pretty dated viewpoint and to me it's a pretty viewpoint and to me it's a pretty viewpoint and to me it's a pretty uninteresting viewpoint and uninteresting viewpoint and uninteresting viewpoint and >> hey friends it's Scott Hansel I'm going >> hey friends it's Scott Hansel I'm going >> hey friends it's Scott Hansel I'm going to take a moment in the middle of the to take a moment in the middle of the to take a moment in the middle of the show here and thank our sponsor Tupil. I show here and thank our sponsor Tupil. I show here and thank our sponsor Tupil. I was chatting with Johnny Marlor about was chatting with Johnny Marlor about was chatting with Johnny Marlor about Tupil. Johnny, what kinds of developers Tupil. Johnny, what kinds of developers Tupil. Johnny, what kinds of developers or teams use Tupal? or teams use Tupal? or teams use Tupal? >> Yeah. Um, with with Tupil, it runs the >> Yeah. Um, with with Tupil, it runs the >> Yeah. Um, with with Tupil, it runs the gamut. So, I think the common thread is gamut. So, I think the common thread is gamut. So, I think the common thread is people who care about quality. So, we've people who care about quality. So, we've people who care about quality. So, we've got small teams like Tailwind and got small teams like Tailwind and got small teams like Tailwind and Laravel. Um, but we've also got big Laravel. Um, but we've also got big Laravel. Um, but we've also got big teams like Shopify, Stripe, and Figma. teams like Shopify, Stripe, and Figma. teams like Shopify, Stripe, and Figma. Um, and of course, we use Tupole all the Um, and of course, we use Tupole all the Um, and of course, we use Tupole all the time. We're a small bootstrap company time. We're a small bootstrap company time. We're a small bootstrap company and almost everyone at Tupil is an and almost everyone at Tupil is an and almost everyone at Tupil is an engineer, even our CEO. And I think engineer, even our CEO. And I think engineer, even our CEO. And I think that's how we catch all the little that's how we catch all the little that's how we catch all the little things and why Tupil feels so different, things and why Tupil feels so different, things and why Tupil feels so different, you know, with like smooth annotations, you know, with like smooth annotations, you know, with like smooth annotations, no clutter UI, um, and the ability to no clutter UI, um, and the ability to no clutter UI, um, and the ability to just do anything with just one click.

just do anything with just one click. just do anything with just one click. Um, so yeah, I I think it's people who Um, so yeah, I I think it's people who Um, so yeah, I I think it's people who basically obsess over pairing, you know, basically obsess over pairing, you know, basically obsess over pairing, you know, obsess over quality. And when you use obsess over quality. And when you use obsess over quality. And when you use Tupel, you're supporting um an Tupel, you're supporting um an Tupel, you're supporting um an independent company um that didn't take independent company um that didn't take independent company um that didn't take any VC backed money. Um so yeah, it's any VC backed money. Um so yeah, it's any VC backed money. Um so yeah, it's it's it's a lot of people. It's anywhere it's it's a lot of people. It's anywhere it's it's a lot of people. It's anywhere from two person shops to, you know, some from two person shops to, you know, some from two person shops to, you know, some of the biggest engineering teams in the of the biggest engineering teams in the of the biggest engineering teams in the world. And I think what they all have in world. And I think what they all have in world. And I think what they all have in common is taste. common is taste. common is taste. >> It's a they all have in common is taste. >> It's a they all have in common is taste. >> It's a they all have in common is taste. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yes. Who uses Tupil? People who are >> Yes. Who uses Tupil? People who are >> Yes. Who uses Tupil? People who are awesome. That's actually kind of true. awesome. That's actually kind of true. awesome. That's actually kind of true. You can check them out at tupil.app. It You can check them out at tupil.app. It You can check them out at tupil.app. It is the best remote pair programming app is the best remote pair programming app is the best remote pair programming app on MacOSS and Windows and it's worth on MacOSS and Windows and it's worth on MacOSS and Windows and it's worth checking out. Hi, I'm Scott Hansselman. checking out. Hi, I'm Scott Hansselman. checking out. Hi, I'm Scott Hansselman. This is another episode of Hansel This is another episode of Hansel This is another episode of Hansel Minutes and today I'm chatting with Minutes and today I'm chatting with Minutes and today I'm chatting with Marcus Fonura. He is a technical fellow Marcus Fonura. He is a technical fellow Marcus Fonura. He is a technical fellow at Microsoft in Azure Core. He is at Microsoft in Azure Core. He is at Microsoft in Azure Core. He is distinguished member of the association distinguished member of the association distinguished member of the association of computing machinery and a member of of computing machinery and a member of of computing machinery and a member of the ILE E. How are you sir? I'm the ILE E. How are you sir? I'm the ILE E. How are you sir? I'm >> doing great Scott. Thanks for having me. >> doing great Scott. Thanks for having me. >> doing great Scott. Thanks for having me. >> Thanks for having me. I had the pleasure >> Thanks for having me. I had the pleasure >> Thanks for having me. I had the pleasure of reading your new book, an early copy of reading your new book, an early copy of reading your new book, an early copy of your new book that you gave me to of your new book that you gave me to of your new book that you gave me to review called Human Agency in a Digital review called Human Agency in a Digital review called Human Agency in a Digital World. You'll be able to get this World. You'll be able to get this World. You'll be able to get this wherever books are sold and you can also wherever books are sold and you can also wherever books are sold and you can also check it out at fontour.org.

check it out at fontour.org. check it out at fontour.org. When you know that there's a book inside When you know that there's a book inside When you know that there's a book inside you, like this book was inside you and you, like this book was inside you and you, like this book was inside you and you needed to get it out. What was that you needed to get it out. What was that you needed to get it out. What was that moment? When did when were you walking moment? When did when were you walking moment? When did when were you walking around or at work and you're like, I around or at work and you're like, I around or at work and you're like, I think I have a book in me I need to get think I have a book in me I need to get think I have a book in me I need to get out of me? out of me? out of me? This is a great question because I This is a great question because I This is a great question because I always thought that like our lives are always thought that like our lives are always thought that like our lives are so immersed in technology so immersed in technology so immersed in technology and the broader society doesn't really and the broader society doesn't really and the broader society doesn't really have the the grasp and the understanding have the the grasp and the understanding have the the grasp and the understanding that they we should have about that they we should have about that they we should have about technology and we should we should treat technology and we should we should treat technology and we should we should treat that we can [clears throat] be part we that we can [clears throat] be part we that we can [clears throat] be part we can participate in technology and not be can participate in technology and not be can participate in technology and not be just by standards. So my daughters just by standards. So my daughters just by standards. So my daughters actually prompted me because they they actually prompted me because they they actually prompted me because they they are asking a lots of questions about AI, are asking a lots of questions about AI, are asking a lots of questions about AI, the futures of their their future, the the futures of their their future, the the futures of their their future, the futures of jobs and education. And and I futures of jobs and education. And and I futures of jobs and education. And and I said like maybe it's a time that said like maybe it's a time that said like maybe it's a time that somebody that works in technology has an somebody that works in technology has an somebody that works in technology has an attempt to to to write a book that will attempt to to to write a book that will attempt to to to write a book that will try to dismissify some of these concepts try to dismissify some of these concepts try to dismissify some of these concepts to the broader audience.

to the broader audience. to the broader audience. >> Who is the audience though? But when I >> Who is the audience though? But when I >> Who is the audience though? But when I read the book, I felt like you don't shy read the book, I felt like you don't shy read the book, I felt like you don't shy away from challenging questions. You away from challenging questions. You away from challenging questions. You don't shy away from some of the math. Uh don't shy away from some of the math. Uh don't shy away from some of the math. Uh the altitude changes. Sometimes it's the altitude changes. Sometimes it's the altitude changes. Sometimes it's high level and it's philosophical and high level and it's philosophical and high level and it's philosophical and sometimes it's lowlevel and it's math. sometimes it's lowlevel and it's math. sometimes it's lowlevel and it's math. Would I give this to you know my Would I give this to you know my Would I give this to you know my non-technical parent or would I give non-technical parent or would I give non-technical parent or would I give this to my son in university? this to my son in university? this to my son in university? I hope to both. I I think I think though I hope to both. I I think I think though I hope to both. I I think I think though like it has to be somebody that is like it has to be somebody that is like it has to be somebody that is interested in technology and like in interested in technology and like in interested in technology and like in curious about technology. Sometimes I curious about technology. Sometimes I curious about technology. Sometimes I try to go uh deeper not not for the sake try to go uh deeper not not for the sake try to go uh deeper not not for the sake of going deeper but just to to explain of going deeper but just to to explain of going deeper but just to to explain the the key concepts that we that I the the key concepts that we that I the the key concepts that we that I start building throughout the book. So start building throughout the book. So start building throughout the book. So the book gets like I would say the book gets like I would say the book gets like I would say progressively more technical, but but I progressively more technical, but but I progressively more technical, but but I think like the you can you can even view think like the you can you can even view think like the you can you can even view like some of these deep dives in in in like some of these deep dives in in in like some of these deep dives in in in some of these core technical aspects of some of these core technical aspects of some of these core technical aspects of the book more as illustrations because the book more as illustrations because the book more as illustrations because my my main motivation is like to to give my my main motivation is like to to give my my main motivation is like to to give enough like information that people can enough like information that people can enough like information that people can start reasoning about the systems at a start reasoning about the systems at a start reasoning about the systems at a high level. So we we we can read it high level. So we we we can read it high level. So we we we can read it trying to understand every every little trying to understand every every little trying to understand every every little comma there or you can read it like comma there or you can read it like comma there or you can read it like trying to understand the broader trying to understand the broader trying to understand the broader framework. So I hope it appeal appeals framework. So I hope it appeal appeals framework. So I hope it appeal appeals to both levels.

to both levels. to both levels. >> Mhm. How much has historical context >> Mhm. How much has historical context >> Mhm. How much has historical context helped? Like I I've mentioned this on helped? Like I I've mentioned this on helped? Like I I've mentioned this on the podcast before that I'm on the other the podcast before that I'm on the other the podcast before that I'm on the other side of my career in that there are side of my career in that there are side of my career in that there are fewer years in front of me than there fewer years in front of me than there fewer years in front of me than there are behind me. And you know you were at are behind me. And you know you were at are behind me. And you know you were at the forefront of object-oriented design. the forefront of object-oriented design. the forefront of object-oriented design. You got your PhD in 1999. You you've You got your PhD in 1999. You you've You got your PhD in 1999. You you've been here while it got built. You've been here while it got built. You've been here while it got built. You've worked on at Microsoft, at Google, at worked on at Microsoft, at Google, at worked on at Microsoft, at Google, at Stone. You've made the cloud, right? Stone. You've made the cloud, right? Stone. You've made the cloud, right? You're working on Azure Core right now. You're working on Azure Core right now. You're working on Azure Core right now. things that fundamentally changed the things that fundamentally changed the things that fundamentally changed the world didn't exist when you started in world didn't exist when you started in world didn't exist when you started in school. How did that historical context school. How did that historical context school. How did that historical context inform your perspective on human agency inform your perspective on human agency inform your perspective on human agency in the digital world? in the digital world? in the digital world? >> I I think it gives me the sense that >> I I think it gives me the sense that >> I I think it gives me the sense that this is more of an evolution than a this is more of an evolution than a this is more of an evolution than a revolution. If you're not paying revolution. If you're not paying revolution. If you're not paying attention and then you're just looking attention and then you're just looking attention and then you're just looking to it and start reading about AI, you to it and start reading about AI, you to it and start reading about AI, you think, "Oh my god, AI is something think, "Oh my god, AI is something think, "Oh my god, AI is something revolutionary and is really going to revolutionary and is really going to revolutionary and is really going to impact our lives." If you are tracking impact our lives." If you are tracking impact our lives." If you are tracking how technology has been evolving over how technology has been evolving over how technology has been evolving over the years, even um in the early 2000s the years, even um in the early 2000s the years, even um in the early 2000s when you did the first automated machine when you did the first automated machine when you did the first automated machine translation software and then um IBM um translation software and then um IBM um translation software and then um IBM um uh beating um Kasparov like in chess and uh beating um Kasparov like in chess and uh beating um Kasparov like in chess and then Jeopardy then Jeopardy then Jeopardy and then like all the evolution even as and then like all the evolution even as and then like all the evolution even as tax processors, right? This one this is

tax processors, right? This one this is tax processors, right? This one this is one one thing that I say in the book one one thing that I say in the book one one thing that I say in the book that like um in the beginning when we that like um in the beginning when we that like um in the beginning when we wrote in in word processor there was not wrote in in word processor there was not wrote in in word processor there was not even spell correction and then we even spell correction and then we even spell correction and then we evolved it to now we have spelling evolved it to now we have spelling evolved it to now we have spelling correction now we have grammar correction now we have grammar correction now we have grammar correction and now even we can write correction and now even we can write correction and now even we can write full paragraphs for you but this is an full paragraphs for you but this is an full paragraphs for you but this is an evolution and and the the advant the evolution and and the the advant the evolution and and the the advant the advantage that we have that we have lots advantage that we have that we have lots advantage that we have that we have lots of data because of the web you have lot of data because of the web you have lot of data because of the web you have lot lots of data online. We have lots of lots of data online. We have lots of lots of data online. We have lots of processing power now and we're going to processing power now and we're going to processing power now and we're going to see more and more progress towards like see more and more progress towards like see more and more progress towards like amplifying the AI technologies. But the amplifying the AI technologies. But the amplifying the AI technologies. But the foundation is not very different than foundation is not very different than foundation is not very different than the foundation that we had for web the foundation that we had for web the foundation that we had for web search or or like for machine search or or like for machine search or or like for machine translation in the early 2000s or even translation in the early 2000s or even translation in the early 2000s or even in the 90s. Hm. One of the things that I in the 90s. Hm. One of the things that I in the 90s. Hm. One of the things that I noticed throughout the book, this is noticed throughout the book, this is noticed throughout the book, this is kind of my interpretation of what the kind of my interpretation of what the kind of my interpretation of what the through what a through line was, is through what a through line was, is through what a through line was, is there was a throughine of efficiency. there was a throughine of efficiency. there was a throughine of efficiency. You talk about how a lot of You talk about how a lot of You talk about how a lot of personalities and a lot of programmers personalities and a lot of programmers personalities and a lot of programmers and software systems and organizations and software systems and organizations and software systems and organizations are obsessed with efficiency. Uh and are obsessed with efficiency. Uh and are obsessed with efficiency. Uh and sometimes they uh they think that sometimes they uh they think that sometimes they uh they think that efficiency is going to reduce waste, but efficiency is going to reduce waste, but efficiency is going to reduce waste, but then it goes and creates fragile then it goes and creates fragile then it goes and creates fragile systems. So there's kind of this systems. So there's kind of this systems. So there's kind of this waffling back and forth between being waffling back and forth between being waffling back and forth between being efficient and being fragile.

efficient and being fragile. efficient and being fragile. Do do you believe that companies can Do do you believe that companies can Do do you believe that companies can overoptimize and then in that process overoptimize and then in that process overoptimize and then in that process they've optimized themselves into they've optimized themselves into they've optimized themselves into fragility? fragility? fragility? >> I believe so. And and but I also believe >> I believe so. And and but I also believe >> I believe so. And and but I also believe that we learn a lot, right? Like and one that we learn a lot, right? Like and one that we learn a lot, right? Like and one one of the things that when you think one of the things that when you think one of the things that when you think about fragility in computer systems is about fragility in computer systems is about fragility in computer systems is is a little different, right? Because is a little different, right? Because is a little different, right? Because like if you're trying to build a robust like if you're trying to build a robust like if you're trying to build a robust um bridge or robust house, we are um bridge or robust house, we are um bridge or robust house, we are thinking about building a solid house or thinking about building a solid house or thinking about building a solid house or a solid bridge that that will um weather a solid bridge that that will um weather a solid bridge that that will um weather like anything any storm and then will be like anything any storm and then will be like anything any storm and then will be super solid. In computer systems when we super solid. In computer systems when we super solid. In computer systems when we want to build reliable things we learned want to build reliable things we learned want to build reliable things we learned that the approach is to assume that you that the approach is to assume that you that the approach is to assume that you have unreli unreliable parts and have unreli unreliable parts and have unreli unreliable parts and engineer re resiliency on top and that's engineer re resiliency on top and that's engineer re resiliency on top and that's I think was the evolution when we I think was the evolution when we I think was the evolution when we started seeing like better networks uh started seeing like better networks uh started seeing like better networks uh connecting more and more computers connecting more and more computers connecting more and more computers together larger systems more data and together larger systems more data and together larger systems more data and one of the quotes that I say in the book one of the quotes that I say in the book one of the quotes that I say in the book is lesser lumpur that he said that a is lesser lumpur that he said that a is lesser lumpur that he said that a distributed system is defined when a distributed system is defined when a distributed system is defined when a computer that you don't know about computer that you don't know about computer that you don't know about crashes your system and I'm paraphrasing crashes your system and I'm paraphrasing crashes your system and I'm paraphrasing here but but we are learning how to here but but we are learning how to here but but we are learning how to build resiliency in the presence of build resiliency in the presence of build resiliency in the presence of larger and larger distributed systems larger and larger distributed systems larger and larger distributed systems and this is to me to me it's fascinating and this is to me to me it's fascinating and this is to me to me it's fascinating because it's very different than

because it's very different than because it's very different than traditional engineering what we're doing traditional engineering what we're doing traditional engineering what we're doing in the digital world is very different in the digital world is very different in the digital world is very different than traditional engineering is is than traditional engineering is is than traditional engineering is is almost like building a house that uh almost like building a house that uh almost like building a house that uh that because it's able to to to to that because it's able to to to to that because it's able to to to to be up even if some walls crash and are be up even if some walls crash and are be up even if some walls crash and are rebuild really quickly like it will be rebuild really quickly like it will be rebuild really quickly like it will be more resilient over time. So it's it's more resilient over time. So it's it's more resilient over time. So it's it's very interesting to to view it from that very interesting to to view it from that very interesting to to view it from that perspective. perspective. perspective. >> And to just call out who you mentioned >> And to just call out who you mentioned >> And to just call out who you mentioned there, that was Lesie Lamport. I there, that was Lesie Lamport. I there, that was Lesie Lamport. I actually had him on the podcast in actually had him on the podcast in actually had him on the podcast in episode 790. He's the winner of the episode 790. He's the winner of the episode 790. He's the winner of the touring award, which is considered the touring award, which is considered the touring award, which is considered the Nobel Prize of Computer Science. And the Nobel Prize of Computer Science. And the Nobel Prize of Computer Science. And the quote you're referring to is that a quote you're referring to is that a quote you're referring to is that a distributed system is one where the distributed system is one where the distributed system is one where the failure of a computer you didn't even failure of a computer you didn't even failure of a computer you didn't even know existed will render your computer know existed will render your computer know existed will render your computer unusable. And I think we can all relate unusable. And I think we can all relate unusable. And I think we can all relate to that. It's always DNS, as they say. to that. It's always DNS, as they say. to that. It's always DNS, as they say. Now the uh the title human agency in a Now the uh the title human agency in a Now the uh the title human agency in a digital world it really is about digital world it really is about digital world it really is about preserving human judgment which we hope preserving human judgment which we hope preserving human judgment which we hope is going to be not fragile and it feels is going to be not fragile and it feels is going to be not fragile and it feels like computers are focusing on being like computers are focusing on being like computers are focusing on being efficient while human judgment uh really efficient while human judgment uh really efficient while human judgment uh really should focus on keeping things strong should focus on keeping things strong should focus on keeping things strong and being what you call anti- fragile.

and being what you call anti- fragile. and being what you call anti- fragile. But then when you in introduce AI, which But then when you in introduce AI, which But then when you in introduce AI, which is supposed to be the thing that allows is supposed to be the thing that allows is supposed to be the thing that allows us to deal with ambiguity, us to deal with ambiguity, us to deal with ambiguity, where does human agency come in? Like where does human agency come in? Like where does human agency come in? Like how am I needed then to keep things how am I needed then to keep things how am I needed then to keep things anti-fragile if the AI can do that for anti-fragile if the AI can do that for anti-fragile if the AI can do that for me? me? me? I I think one key point that we need to I I think one key point that we need to I I think one key point that we need to learn together is learn together is learn together is what we want these AI systems to do for what we want these AI systems to do for what we want these AI systems to do for us and then what what and how can we us and then what what and how can we us and then what what and how can we cooperate with AI systems better and how cooperate with AI systems better and how cooperate with AI systems better and how they can augment our agency and they we they can augment our agency and they we they can augment our agency and they we want AI systems to be designed to want AI systems to be designed to want AI systems to be designed to amplify our human humanity, right? So amplify our human humanity, right? So amplify our human humanity, right? So like for instance a simple scenario is like for instance a simple scenario is like for instance a simple scenario is like if you had a and of course like like if you had a and of course like like if you had a and of course like that is like that is like that is like out there but like I'm just wanted to be out there but like I'm just wanted to be out there but like I'm just wanted to be thought provoking but like let's say if thought provoking but like let's say if thought provoking but like let's say if I had a perfect uh robot tutor that I had a perfect uh robot tutor that I had a perfect uh robot tutor that could teach your kids to go to Harvard could teach your kids to go to Harvard could teach your kids to go to Harvard but but you had to delegate the but but you had to delegate the but but you had to delegate the education of your kids to this robot education of your kids to this robot education of your kids to this robot like would you want that or not? Right.

like would you want that or not? Right. like would you want that or not? Right. So I I would say for myself like even So I I would say for myself like even So I I would say for myself like even though I am fallible and not probably though I am fallible and not probably though I am fallible and not probably the best tutor in the world and I cannot the best tutor in the world and I cannot the best tutor in the world and I cannot guarantee that my my kids will will get guarantee that my my kids will will get guarantee that my my kids will will get into I League schools if they follow the into I League schools if they follow the into I League schools if they follow the Marcus tutoring style and not the the Marcus tutoring style and not the the Marcus tutoring style and not the the perfect robot tutoring style. I would perfect robot tutoring style. I would perfect robot tutoring style. I would still want there are some activities still want there are some activities still want there are some activities that I feel that are inherently human that I feel that are inherently human that I feel that are inherently human and we we want to do and I think there and we we want to do and I think there and we we want to do and I think there are things that are probably are things that are probably are things that are probably activities that we don't consider that activities that we don't consider that activities that we don't consider that like they define us or that they enrich like they define us or that they enrich like they define us or that they enrich our experience like be it like anyway our experience like be it like anyway our experience like be it like anyway like like grammar correction might be like like grammar correction might be like like grammar correction might be one of those. So it's great that AI can one of those. So it's great that AI can one of those. So it's great that AI can do that for us. It's great that AI can do that for us. It's great that AI can do that for us. It's great that AI can um search all the cataloges of all books um search all the cataloges of all books um search all the cataloges of all books in Netflix and give us a reasonable in Netflix and give us a reasonable in Netflix and give us a reasonable suggestion and that's a really good news suggestion and that's a really good news suggestion and that's a really good news of AI and then I think there will be of AI and then I think there will be of AI and then I think there will be uses of AI that I think we need to as a uses of AI that I think we need to as a uses of AI that I think we need to as a society think like what is the direction society think like what is the direction society think like what is the direction that we want to uh to take those one of that we want to uh to take those one of that we want to uh to take those one of the things that we talk about is like the things that we talk about is like the things that we talk about is like use of AI for developers and that's one use of AI for developers and that's one use of AI for developers and that's one topic that we're super interested and topic that we're super interested and topic that we're super interested and and for me is near and dear to my heart and for me is near and dear to my heart and for me is near and dear to my heart Yeah. So, we can talk about that a Yeah. So, we can talk about that a Yeah. So, we can talk about that a little bit because one of the other little bit because one of the other little bit because one of the other things that you're known for is kind of things that you're known for is kind of things that you're known for is kind of thinking deeply about engineering thinking deeply about engineering thinking deeply about engineering culture, about rebuilding engineering culture, about rebuilding engineering culture, about rebuilding engineering culture at different companies. You've culture at different companies. You've culture at different companies. You've gone to companies and flattened gone to companies and flattened gone to companies and flattened management. You've reintroduced the idea management. You've reintroduced the idea management. You've reintroduced the idea of a strong individual contributor.

of a strong individual contributor. of a strong individual contributor. You're in my in my perception you are You're in my in my perception you are You're in my in my perception you are applying stress to organizations looking applying stress to organizations looking applying stress to organizations looking for the brittleleness and then trying to for the brittleleness and then trying to for the brittleleness and then trying to prevent that brittleleness through prevent that brittleleness through prevent that brittleleness through stress right the idea is that you you stress right the idea is that you you stress right the idea is that you you work out you break your muscles down and work out you break your muscles down and work out you break your muscles down and then you build them back up stronger then you build them back up stronger then you build them back up stronger than before uh it's kind of this than before uh it's kind of this than before uh it's kind of this bottomup innovation with the innovation bottomup innovation with the innovation bottomup innovation with the innovation of AI into our lives I worry somehow of AI into our lives I worry somehow of AI into our lives I worry somehow that people with fragile understandings that people with fragile understandings that people with fragile understandings of how systems work are going to have of how systems work are going to have of how systems work are going to have only their frag fragility only their frag fragility only their frag fragility increased, senior engineers become more increased, senior engineers become more increased, senior engineers become more senior and junior engineers maybe fall senior and junior engineers maybe fall senior and junior engineers maybe fall by the wayside and that that worries me. by the wayside and that that worries me. by the wayside and that that worries me. >> Yeah, it worries me too especially in in >> Yeah, it worries me too especially in in >> Yeah, it worries me too especially in in the current current evolution that we the current current evolution that we the current current evolution that we are in AI, right? I think the systems are in AI, right? I think the systems are in AI, right? I think the systems will will get better and will do more. will will get better and will do more. will will get better and will do more. But it has been an increasing evolution But it has been an increasing evolution But it has been an increasing evolution like since the like since the like since the early innings of computing. We are early innings of computing. We are early innings of computing. We are always looking into this task of like always looking into this task of like always looking into this task of like how can we make the job of the how can we make the job of the how can we make the job of the programmer easier and easier and so that programmer easier and easier and so that programmer easier and easier and so that the programmer can focus on on the the programmer can focus on on the the programmer can focus on on the business logic or the the really business logic or the the really business logic or the the really important concepts that really capture important concepts that really capture important concepts that really capture the problem that they are trying to the problem that they are trying to the problem that they are trying to solve and not the solve and not the solve and not the all the glue that we have to put all the glue that we have to put all the glue that we have to put together. And I think this is a great together. And I think this is a great together. And I think this is a great evolution and I think AI can really evolution and I think AI can really evolution and I think AI can really automate a lot of of that glue and make automate a lot of of that glue and make automate a lot of of that glue and make the life of the the the expert engineer the life of the the the expert engineer the life of the the the expert engineer even better. I I am afraid like you that

even better. I I am afraid like you that even better. I I am afraid like you that junior engineers that don't have that junior engineers that don't have that junior engineers that don't have that experience and still don't have the um experience and still don't have the um experience and still don't have the um the the key knowledge on like good the the key knowledge on like good the the key knowledge on like good patterns and and good anti-atterns and patterns and and good anti-atterns and patterns and and good anti-atterns and what to look for in good code AI will what to look for in good code AI will what to look for in good code AI will not help them as much right so this is a not help them as much right so this is a not help them as much right so this is a a key problem that we are living on a key problem that we are living on a key problem that we are living on right now and then I think I think it's right now and then I think I think it's right now and then I think I think it's it's fascinating because I'm sure we we it's fascinating because I'm sure we we it's fascinating because I'm sure we we have like good solutions, but we have to have like good solutions, but we have to have like good solutions, but we have to be super intentional about it, right? be super intentional about it, right? be super intentional about it, right? Yeah. And being intentional is not just Yeah. And being intentional is not just Yeah. And being intentional is not just like give AI to everybody and hope for like give AI to everybody and hope for like give AI to everybody and hope for the best. I think we really need to have the best. I think we really need to have the best. I think we really need to have a plan. a plan. a plan. >> No, I really appreciate that >> No, I really appreciate that >> No, I really appreciate that perspective. The idea of being perspective. The idea of being perspective. The idea of being intentional and is so important because intentional and is so important because intentional and is so important because right now it feels like we're just right now it feels like we're just right now it feels like we're just throwing AI at everyone and hoping it'll throwing AI at everyone and hoping it'll throwing AI at everyone and hoping it'll work out and that throwing sharp sticks work out and that throwing sharp sticks work out and that throwing sharp sticks at people will just make them poke at people will just make them poke at people will just make them poke themselves and their friends in the eye. themselves and their friends in the eye. themselves and their friends in the eye. and your uh our mutual friend Mark and your uh our mutual friend Mark and your uh our mutual friend Mark Rinovich has kind of similar concerns. Rinovich has kind of similar concerns. Rinovich has kind of similar concerns. And one of the things that uh we he was And one of the things that uh we he was And one of the things that uh we he was mentioning to me was that some people mentioning to me was that some people mentioning to me was that some people seem to think that an infinite or a very seem to think that an infinite or a very seem to think that an infinite or a very large context window would allow AIS to large context window would allow AIS to large context window would allow AIS to look at a system like Azure, like a look at a system like Azure, like a look at a system like Azure, like a large enterprise system, something with large enterprise system, something with large enterprise system, something with billions of lines of code with an billions of lines of code with an billions of lines of code with an incredibly deep stack and somehow look incredibly deep stack and somehow look incredibly deep stack and somehow look at that. But I think that's silly. I at that. But I think that's silly. I at that. But I think that's silly. I think that the context window of a human think that the context window of a human think that the context window of a human experience, my 30-year context window, experience, my 30-year context window, experience, my 30-year context window, your 30-year context window, is your 30-year context window, is your 30-year context window, is interesting because we're paging in and interesting because we're paging in and interesting because we're paging in and out. The human brain is paging in and

out. The human brain is paging in and out. The human brain is paging in and out from deep storage when you like have out from deep storage when you like have out from deep storage when you like have a problem and you go, "When did I I a problem and you go, "When did I I a problem and you go, "When did I I think and then your brain somehow pages think and then your brain somehow pages think and then your brain somehow pages from deep storage into your local from deep storage into your local from deep storage into your local context window like yes, I've seen this context window like yes, I've seen this context window like yes, I've seen this before. We are so good at pattern before. We are so good at pattern before. We are so good at pattern matching. I wonder if that's going to be matching. I wonder if that's going to be matching. I wonder if that's going to be our superpower. Like human judgment and our superpower. Like human judgment and our superpower. Like human judgment and experience over many years paging in and experience over many years paging in and experience over many years paging in and out of of you know local storage is is out of of you know local storage is is out of of you know local storage is is my superpower and AI won't be able to my superpower and AI won't be able to my superpower and AI won't be able to create that. create that. create that. >> No, I agree. And then I I feel like >> No, I agree. And then I I feel like >> No, I agree. And then I I feel like there is this this part of the book that there is this this part of the book that there is this this part of the book that I talk talk about AI being stoastic I talk talk about AI being stoastic I talk talk about AI being stoastic parrots, right? Because like the like a parrots, right? Because like the like a parrots, right? Because like the like a large language model is is is a model large language model is is is a model large language model is is is a model that read for like thousands and that read for like thousands and that read for like thousands and thousands of years and basically thousands of years and basically thousands of years and basically remember everything and store everything remember everything and store everything remember everything and store everything in this like trillion parameters that in this like trillion parameters that in this like trillion parameters that these models have and we don't have that these models have and we don't have that these models have and we don't have that super memory [laughter] but but but um super memory [laughter] but but but um super memory [laughter] but but but um but maybe that's to our advantage but maybe that's to our advantage but maybe that's to our advantage because then we can stay step back. We because then we can stay step back. We because then we can stay step back. We are not just trying to pattern match. we are not just trying to pattern match. we are not just trying to pattern match. we we we are really we we are really we we are really taking a step back and and then thinking taking a step back and and then thinking taking a step back and and then thinking through the end to end solution the the through the end to end solution the the through the end to end solution the the system thinking and I think encoding system thinking and I think encoding system thinking and I think encoding system thinking in AI I think we're a system thinking in AI I think we're a system thinking in AI I think we're a little bit far away from that maybe little bit far away from that maybe little bit far away from that maybe we'll get there but like current we'll get there but like current we'll get there but like current generation of AI systems like are not generation of AI systems like are not generation of AI systems like are not there yet so I I think we we need to there yet so I I think we we need to there yet so I I think we we need to really value like the the art of

really value like the the art of really value like the the art of computer science the the art of computer science the the art of computer science the the art of programming and and how to keep that programming and and how to keep that programming and and how to keep that alive and how to communicate that to the alive and how to communicate that to the alive and how to communicate that to the newer generations. newer generations. newer generations. >> There was an article, I think, in the >> There was an article, I think, in the >> There was an article, I think, in the New York Times a couple of days ago New York Times a couple of days ago New York Times a couple of days ago where someone said that they were where someone said that they were where someone said that they were concerned that if we push AI too much in concerned that if we push AI too much in concerned that if we push AI too much in education that people will become education that people will become education that people will become subcognitive, subcognitive, subcognitive, meaning that they just won't even think. meaning that they just won't even think. meaning that they just won't even think. They'll just go with their gut. And if a They'll just go with their gut. And if a They'll just go with their gut. And if a fact doesn't feel good, well, I reject fact doesn't feel good, well, I reject fact doesn't feel good, well, I reject that. It's I'm not even going to think that. It's I'm not even going to think that. It's I'm not even going to think about it. And and I worry that we're about it. And and I worry that we're about it. And and I worry that we're going to unleash it on people so quickly going to unleash it on people so quickly going to unleash it on people so quickly that fragility of of knowledge itself that fragility of of knowledge itself that fragility of of knowledge itself will be forgotten. Like I'll retire, will be forgotten. Like I'll retire, will be forgotten. Like I'll retire, you'll retire, we'll pass away and you'll retire, we'll pass away and you'll retire, we'll pass away and people are going to forget how all these people are going to forget how all these people are going to forget how all these systems work. Now you work on Azure systems work. Now you work on Azure systems work. Now you work on Azure core. You have built distributed systems core. You have built distributed systems core. You have built distributed systems since the first time you probably put since the first time you probably put since the first time you probably put two computers together and made a two computers together and made a two computers together and made a roundroin DNS. This is a silly question, roundroin DNS. This is a silly question, roundroin DNS. This is a silly question, but how much of Azure's architecture can but how much of Azure's architecture can but how much of Azure's architecture can you hold in your head and how many you hold in your head and how many you hold in your head and how many sections of the cloud you just have no sections of the cloud you just have no sections of the cloud you just have no idea how that works? How deep is your idea how that works? How deep is your idea how that works? How deep is your stack?

stack? stack? >> I I would say that um I I probably for >> I I would say that um I I probably for >> I I would say that um I I probably for Azure I I probably hold like a a very Azure I I probably hold like a a very Azure I I probably hold like a a very shallow understanding of like a a very shallow understanding of like a a very shallow understanding of like a a very shallow understanding of like the end to shallow understanding of like the end to shallow understanding of like the end to end system. this meaning meaning that I end system. this meaning meaning that I end system. this meaning meaning that I don't understand the details of many don't understand the details of many don't understand the details of many things and there is there is a core part things and there is there is a core part things and there is there is a core part in the the infra that I think I have a in the the infra that I think I have a in the the infra that I think I have a deep understanding and I I I would I deep understanding and I I I would I deep understanding and I I I would I would think that the the architects that would think that the the architects that would think that the the architects that put the systems together will be like me put the systems together will be like me put the systems together will be like me right like there will be our storage right like there will be our storage right like there will be our storage architects that know a lot about the architects that know a lot about the architects that know a lot about the storage but then they don't know much storage but then they don't know much storage but then they don't know much about uh how the networking systems are about uh how the networking systems are about uh how the networking systems are configured configured configured because I'm I'm I'm doing this role of because I'm I'm I'm doing this role of because I'm I'm I'm doing this role of like end to end architect architect for like end to end architect architect for like end to end architect architect for Azure maybe I'm even more shallow than Azure maybe I'm even more shallow than Azure maybe I'm even more shallow than most people in in the details of each most people in in the details of each most people in in the details of each one of the components, but I I have a one of the components, but I I have a one of the components, but I I have a pretty good understanding of the end to pretty good understanding of the end to pretty good understanding of the end to end flow of of of things and um and I end flow of of of things and um and I end flow of of of things and um and I can dive deep in some areas, but I would can dive deep in some areas, but I would can dive deep in some areas, but I would say most of the areas I can't and then I say most of the areas I can't and then I say most of the areas I can't and then I I feel that and and this is the beauty I feel that and and this is the beauty I feel that and and this is the beauty of humans, right? Because humans also of humans, right? Because humans also of humans, right? Because humans also are different.

are different. are different. There are humans that will be more like There are humans that will be more like There are humans that will be more like me and there are humans that will be me and there are humans that will be me and there are humans that will be very deep and really understand like very deep and really understand like very deep and really understand like that narrow component and that's the that narrow component and that's the that narrow component and that's the beauty of composing uh heterogeneous beauty of composing uh heterogeneous beauty of composing uh heterogeneous teams with people with different teams with people with different teams with people with different backgrounds backgrounds backgrounds different interests because we can different interests because we can different interests because we can complement each other and build really a complement each other and build really a complement each other and build really a strong anti-fragile strong anti-fragile strong anti-fragile software organization. Now um all AI software organization. Now um all AI software organization. Now um all AI agents are the same like if they are agents are the same like if they are agents are the same like if they are based on the same transformer network at based on the same transformer network at based on the same transformer network at the end like they are all the same they the end like they are all the same they the end like they are all the same they all have very good memory and very weak all have very good memory and very weak all have very good memory and very weak processing capability and and then I processing capability and and then I processing capability and and then I don't want I want an AI agent in my team don't want I want an AI agent in my team don't want I want an AI agent in my team but I also want people with other world but I also want people with other world but I also want people with other world other um world views if that's the the other um world views if that's the the other um world views if that's the the word that represents it. That really word that represents it. That really word that represents it. That really scratched uh a certain part of my brain scratched uh a certain part of my brain scratched uh a certain part of my brain right there because you're absolutely right there because you're absolutely right there because you're absolutely right. Like we know that having separate right. Like we know that having separate right. Like we know that having separate responsibilities, having deep responsibilities, having deep responsibilities, having deep specialization, having diverse teams of specialization, having diverse teams of specialization, having diverse teams of people from all over with different people from all over with different people from all over with different expertise, heterogeneous teams by expertise, heterogeneous teams by expertise, heterogeneous teams by definition make scientifically good definition make scientifically good definition make scientifically good teams. But if I were to make a multi- teams. But if I were to make a multi- teams. But if I were to make a multi- aent workflow and they're all based on aent workflow and they're all based on aent workflow and they're all based on the same model and they're all based on the same model and they're all based on the same model and they're all based on the same architecture, they all do the the same architecture, they all do the the same architecture, they all do the same thing, I've effectively hired one same thing, I've effectively hired one same thing, I've effectively hired one person and cloned them and called it a person and cloned them and called it a person and cloned them and called it a team just because I gave everyone a team just because I gave everyone a team just because I gave everyone a different job description, but that's different job description, but that's different job description, but that's not a heterogeneous team. So arguably, not a heterogeneous team. So arguably, not a heterogeneous team. So arguably, it won't be able to operate at a at a it won't be able to operate at a at a it won't be able to operate at a at a high level of quality. It would be a

high level of quality. It would be a high level of quality. It would be a fragile team. fragile team. fragile team. >> Yeah, it would be more fragile than a >> Yeah, it would be more fragile than a >> Yeah, it would be more fragile than a human team, right? But um with maybe a human team, right? But um with maybe a human team, right? But um with maybe a super programmer in it but super programmer in it but super programmer in it but >> obey we have a super programmer but >> obey we have a super programmer but >> obey we have a super programmer but still if you look at the organization as still if you look at the organization as still if you look at the organization as a whole it could be a fragile a whole it could be a fragile a whole it could be a fragile organization. organization. organization. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. One of the things that >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. One of the things that >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. One of the things that you talk about that you seem to be you talk about that you seem to be you talk about that you seem to be really excited about in the book is the really excited about in the book is the really excited about in the book is the idea of virtuous cycles. You really idea of virtuous cycles. You really idea of virtuous cycles. You really believe that if you can start a believe that if you can start a believe that if you can start a flywheel, you make investments in the flywheel, you make investments in the flywheel, you make investments in the right thing and then maybe an investment right thing and then maybe an investment right thing and then maybe an investment in the market, an investment in your in the market, an investment in your in the market, an investment in your people, an investment in productivity people, an investment in productivity people, an investment in productivity that you start a virtuous cycle. Um, can that you start a virtuous cycle. Um, can that you start a virtuous cycle. Um, can you talk a little bit more about why you talk a little bit more about why you talk a little bit more about why virtuous cycles are important? virtuous cycles are important? virtuous cycles are important? >> When when I look at organizations and >> When when I look at organizations and >> When when I look at organizations and then one of one of the things that I then one of one of the things that I then one of one of the things that I tried to do to do in the book is like to tried to do to do in the book is like to tried to do to do in the book is like to look at organizations from the lenses of look at organizations from the lenses of look at organizations from the lenses of computer science, right? If I was going computer science, right? If I was going computer science, right? If I was going to program an organization, I want an to program an organization, I want an to program an organization, I want an efficient organization. And what does efficient organization. And what does efficient organization. And what does that mean? I want I want people to be that mean? I want I want people to be that mean? I want I want people to be working on the latest and greatest working on the latest and greatest working on the latest and greatest technologies so that they they have like technologies so that they they have like technologies so that they they have like great tools so that they feel productive great tools so that they feel productive great tools so that they feel productive and um and if they feel productive, they and um and if they feel productive, they and um and if they feel productive, they can achieve more with less. But but then can achieve more with less. But but then can achieve more with less. But but then I don't feel that like oh because I'm I don't feel that like oh because I'm I don't feel that like oh because I'm achieving more with less, we should have achieving more with less, we should have achieving more with less, we should have smaller teams. And it's not the smaller teams. And it's not the smaller teams. And it's not the argument. is more when we achieve more argument. is more when we achieve more argument. is more when we achieve more with less we can do more and you and with less we can do more and you and with less we can do more and you and doing more like we are just growing the doing more like we are just growing the doing more like we are just growing the pie and then we do more and then and

pie and then we do more and then and pie and then we do more and then and then this flywheel keeps going up and up then this flywheel keeps going up and up then this flywheel keeps going up and up right so we do more we invent new right so we do more we invent new right so we do more we invent new technology and then we are more technology and then we are more technology and then we are more productive we have more resources to productive we have more resources to productive we have more resources to invent yet more more technology and we invent yet more more technology and we invent yet more more technology and we are yet more productive and then I think are yet more productive and then I think are yet more productive and then I think that that's like the holy grail for me that that's like the holy grail for me that that's like the holy grail for me and and and and and I think to me it's like almost and and I think to me it's like almost and and I think to me it's like almost like super obvious idea, right? But but like super obvious idea, right? But but like super obvious idea, right? But but I I feel people don't have that in their I I feel people don't have that in their I I feel people don't have that in their heads, right? Like they they're saying heads, right? Like they they're saying heads, right? Like they they're saying like, well, let's just become more like, well, let's just become more like, well, let's just become more productive. And then I said, okay, you productive. And then I said, okay, you productive. And then I said, okay, you you be becoming more productive, you are you be becoming more productive, you are you be becoming more productive, you are producing more with less. What what do producing more with less. What what do producing more with less. What what do you do with the value that you you you do with the value that you you you do with the value that you you generate? How would you invest this generate? How would you invest this generate? How would you invest this value? And my my key thing and my key value? And my my key thing and my key value? And my my key thing and my key mantra is that we should invest this mantra is that we should invest this mantra is that we should invest this value in innovation because then if you value in innovation because then if you value in innovation because then if you don't reinvesting it in innovation don't reinvesting it in innovation don't reinvesting it in innovation basically you are not putting it to a basically you are not putting it to a basically you are not putting it to a good use. good use. good use. >> Yeah that's a great point and also that >> Yeah that's a great point and also that >> Yeah that's a great point and also that the the human in the loop is so the the human in the loop is so the the human in the loop is so important that human agency like important that human agency like important that human agency like literally in the title of the book like literally in the title of the book like literally in the title of the book like we're making a thing we're making a we're making a thing we're making a we're making a thing we're making a thing more productive for who? For thing more productive for who? For thing more productive for who? For humans why are we doing this? How did we humans why are we doing this? How did we humans why are we doing this? How did we improve their lives in in the design of improve their lives in in the design of improve their lives in in the design of this? How do we make the engineer have this? How do we make the engineer have this? How do we make the engineer have more fun, enjoy their work, get to be more fun, enjoy their work, get to be more fun, enjoy their work, get to be more creative, and the products that we more creative, and the products that we more creative, and the products that we create, are they less fragile so that create, are they less fragile so that create, are they less fragile so that people are going to have a better people are going to have a better people are going to have a better experience? And you call out that where experience? And you call out that where experience? And you call out that where machines scale in being efficient, machines scale in being efficient, machines scale in being efficient, humans need to really amplify being humans need to really amplify being humans need to really amplify being adaptive and and you know, the the the

adaptive and and you know, the the the adaptive and and you know, the the the uh the tools need to be secondary. The uh the tools need to be secondary. The uh the tools need to be secondary. The human needs to be first. human needs to be first. human needs to be first. >> Yeah, I love machine. One one of the >> Yeah, I love machine. One one of the >> Yeah, I love machine. One one of the things that I repeat over and over in things that I repeat over and over in things that I repeat over and over in the book is that machines are very good the book is that machines are very good the book is that machines are very good in doing calculations and and in fact in doing calculations and and in fact in doing calculations and and in fact it's the only thing that they know what it's the only thing that they know what it's the only thing that they know what to do right like they they didn't know to do right like they they didn't know to do right like they they didn't know how to do they don't know how to do how to do they don't know how to do how to do they don't know how to do anything besides computing integer anything besides computing integer anything besides computing integer functions and but the advantage is that functions and but the advantage is that functions and but the advantage is that they do it very fast very precisely and they do it very fast very precisely and they do it very fast very precisely and they don't complain if you ask a human they don't complain if you ask a human they don't complain if you ask a human to keep computing the same matrix over to keep computing the same matrix over to keep computing the same matrix over and over they get bored and they start and over they get bored and they start and over they get bored and they start making mistakes right away so I think uh making mistakes right away so I think uh making mistakes right away so I think uh heterogeneous teams that is composed of heterogeneous teams that is composed of heterogeneous teams that is composed of machines and humans. We should delegate machines and humans. We should delegate machines and humans. We should delegate like the humanity to hum to to humans like the humanity to hum to to humans like the humanity to hum to to humans and and let computers do what uh they do and and let computers do what uh they do and and let computers do what uh they do best. best. best. >> Mhm. One of the sections I really really >> Mhm. One of the sections I really really >> Mhm. One of the sections I really really enjoyed because we talked about enjoyed because we talked about enjoyed because we talked about anti-fragility and uh you know Nasim anti-fragility and uh you know Nasim anti-fragility and uh you know Nasim Nicholas Talb wrote about that in his Nicholas Talb wrote about that in his Nicholas Talb wrote about that in his book anti-fragile but you have a section book anti-fragile but you have a section book anti-fragile but you have a section called laws of physics which I called laws of physics which I called laws of physics which I understand and laws of fiction. What are understand and laws of fiction. What are understand and laws of fiction. What are the laws of fiction?

the laws of fiction? the laws of fiction? Yeah. And and this concept I am Yeah. And and this concept I am Yeah. And and this concept I am referring to to to fiction as described referring to to to fiction as described referring to to to fiction as described in in in sapiens by Yal Noah Harrari, in in in sapiens by Yal Noah Harrari, in in in sapiens by Yal Noah Harrari, right? that we have our physical world right? that we have our physical world right? that we have our physical world that is governed by biology, chemistry, that is governed by biology, chemistry, that is governed by biology, chemistry, physics and and then we have a virtual physics and and then we have a virtual physics and and then we have a virtual world that is things that we invented on world that is things that we invented on world that is things that we invented on top like stuff we invented like cities, top like stuff we invented like cities, top like stuff we invented like cities, wealth, money, police and all those wealth, money, police and all those wealth, money, police and all those things became an integral part of our things became an integral part of our things became an integral part of our life our lives but but they are really life our lives but but they are really life our lives but but they are really inventions of humankind right like they inventions of humankind right like they inventions of humankind right like they are not really I cannot I can remove a are not really I cannot I can remove a are not really I cannot I can remove a law from the constitution but they can law from the constitution but they can law from the constitution but they can never remove a law the law of gravity never remove a law the law of gravity never remove a law the law of gravity right like right like right like so so I think some sometimes like when so so I think some sometimes like when so so I think some sometimes like when you're thinking about these systems like you're thinking about these systems like you're thinking about these systems like and one of they become the the the and one of they become the the the and one of they become the the the computer systems we build they become so computer systems we build they become so computer systems we build they become so ingrained in our lives that we start um ingrained in our lives that we start um ingrained in our lives that we start um thinking that they are real that they thinking that they are real that they thinking that they are real that they are really part of like our our human are really part of like our our human are really part of like our our human nature and our our physical world right nature and our our physical world right nature and our our physical world right like my daughters were saying like I like my daughters were saying like I like my daughters were saying like I cannot live without Tik Tok when Tik Tok cannot live without Tik Tok when Tik Tok cannot live without Tik Tok when Tik Tok was about to be banned and I said like was about to be banned and I said like was about to be banned and I said like you can absolutely live without Tik Tok you can absolutely live without Tik Tok you can absolutely live without Tik Tok and is we cannot live without water you and is we cannot live without water you and is we cannot live without water you cannot live without gravity but we can cannot live without gravity but we can cannot live without gravity but we can live without Tik Tok and and and then live without Tik Tok and and and then live without Tik Tok and and and then that whole discussion is like u related that whole discussion is like u related that whole discussion is like u related to what we were discussing talking about

to what we were discussing talking about to what we were discussing talking about before that um we we should think about before that um we we should think about before that um we we should think about which computer systems do we really want which computer systems do we really want which computer systems do we really want and one of the things that I mentioned and one of the things that I mentioned and one of the things that I mentioned was uh the impact of social network on was uh the impact of social network on was uh the impact of social network on on teenagers health. And although there on teenagers health. And although there on teenagers health. And although there are very po very good applications and are very po very good applications and are very po very good applications and posit applications of social networks, posit applications of social networks, posit applications of social networks, not all applications of social networks not all applications of social networks not all applications of social networks are are positive and we shouldn't take are are positive and we shouldn't take are are positive and we shouldn't take them for granted. We should as a society them for granted. We should as a society them for granted. We should as a society when we understand the systems um have when we understand the systems um have when we understand the systems um have an opinion and then claim like that do an opinion and then claim like that do an opinion and then claim like that do you want those things in our lives or we you want those things in our lives or we you want those things in our lives or we don't want those things in our lives. don't want those things in our lives. don't want those things in our lives. That is really that is really a powerful That is really that is really a powerful That is really that is really a powerful way of thinking. Like I can see people way of thinking. Like I can see people way of thinking. Like I can see people maybe listening to this podcast or maybe listening to this podcast or maybe listening to this podcast or reading the book and hearing the word reading the book and hearing the word reading the book and hearing the word fiction and having like a negative fiction and having like a negative fiction and having like a negative reaction and then stop. They would stop reaction and then stop. They would stop reaction and then stop. They would stop listening. But if you think about the listening. But if you think about the listening. But if you think about the two kinds of myths, right? Like the one two kinds of myths, right? Like the one two kinds of myths, right? Like the one that's physical reality. Gravity is not that's physical reality. Gravity is not that's physical reality. Gravity is not a myth. It is a thing. It's a law. But a myth. It is a thing. It's a law. But a myth. It is a thing. It's a law. But then if we all have the same then if we all have the same then if we all have the same hallucination if we all believe in the hallucination if we all believe in the hallucination if we all believe in the shared mythology like you say a city shared mythology like you say a city shared mythology like you say a city there's there's physicalness to back it there's there's physicalness to back it there's there's physicalness to back it up but it's just a giant village and a up but it's just a giant village and a up but it's just a giant village and a village starts with one house and then village starts with one house and then village starts with one house and then your in-laws move into the the little your in-laws move into the the little your in-laws move into the the little hut next to you and the next thing you hut next to you and the next thing you hut next to you and the next thing you know you've got a city. the idea that my know you've got a city. the idea that my know you've got a city. the idea that my children exist in a world where pocket children exist in a world where pocket children exist in a world where pocket supercomputers exist like I remember

supercomputers exist like I remember supercomputers exist like I remember when this didn't exist which brings me when this didn't exist which brings me when this didn't exist which brings me back to that conversation from the back to that conversation from the back to that conversation from the beginning when I asked you like you beginning when I asked you like you beginning when I asked you like you remember when there was no cloud and remember when there was no cloud and remember when there was no cloud and then someone had the idea for a cloud we then someone had the idea for a cloud we then someone had the idea for a cloud we all made a cloud now there's multiple all made a cloud now there's multiple all made a cloud now there's multiple clouds and there's a whole generation of clouds and there's a whole generation of clouds and there's a whole generation of people who believe in that myth that the people who believe in that myth that the people who believe in that myth that the cloud is required that it was the thing cloud is required that it was the thing cloud is required that it was the thing that met the moment and now we think that met the moment and now we think that met the moment and now we think that And AI is arguably a myth as well that And AI is arguably a myth as well that And AI is arguably a myth as well as the anthropomorphizing of AI and as the anthropomorphizing of AI and as the anthropomorphizing of AI and people feeling like they have a people feeling like they have a people feeling like they have a relationship with an AI that it's it's relationship with an AI that it's it's relationship with an AI that it's it's one it makes me wonder what the next one it makes me wonder what the next one it makes me wonder what the next shared delusion is going to be or the shared delusion is going to be or the shared delusion is going to be or the shared digital myth that's coming after shared digital myth that's coming after shared digital myth that's coming after AI. AI. AI. >> Yeah. And and and even our relationship >> Yeah. And and and even our relationship >> Yeah. And and and even our relationship with AI, right, Scott? Because I I feel with AI, right, Scott? Because I I feel with AI, right, Scott? Because I I feel that um a lot of people think about AI that um a lot of people think about AI that um a lot of people think about AI almost coming from this almost coming from this almost coming from this colonization mind frame that like you colonization mind frame that like you colonization mind frame that like you know we had the is Spain conquered know we had the is Spain conquered know we had the is Spain conquered America or or now we have like maybe the America or or now we have like maybe the America or or now we have like maybe the humans will domesticate AI or AI will humans will domesticate AI or AI will humans will domesticate AI or AI will domesticate the humans and and it's domesticate the humans and and it's domesticate the humans and and it's pretty dated pretty dated pretty dated viewpoint and to me it's a pretty viewpoint and to me it's a pretty viewpoint and to me it's a pretty uninteresting viewpoint and I'm actually uninteresting viewpoint and I'm actually uninteresting viewpoint and I'm actually much less concerned about that than like much less concerned about that than like much less concerned about that than like us really trying to understand what we us really trying to understand what we us really trying to understand what we can do with AI right now to really have can do with AI right now to really have can do with AI right now to really have a positive impact in the world. Right?

a positive impact in the world. Right? a positive impact in the world. Right? There are so many problems we want to There are so many problems we want to There are so many problems we want to solve. We want to solve climate change. solve. We want to solve climate change. solve. We want to solve climate change. We want to solve um income distribution. We want to solve um income distribution. We want to solve um income distribution. We want to solve social mobility. We We want to solve social mobility. We We want to solve social mobility. We want to solve transportation. And AI can want to solve transportation. And AI can want to solve transportation. And AI can play a huge role in all those things. play a huge role in all those things. play a huge role in all those things. And uh if to me it's much more And uh if to me it's much more And uh if to me it's much more interesting to think about those interesting to think about those interesting to think about those scenarios that AI is applied to to a to scenarios that AI is applied to to a to scenarios that AI is applied to to a to a scenario that is really impacting our a scenario that is really impacting our a scenario that is really impacting our humanity like let's fix trans humanity like let's fix trans humanity like let's fix trans transportation with self-driving cars or transportation with self-driving cars or transportation with self-driving cars or or something of that nature than to or something of that nature than to or something of that nature than to think that in in a few years AI will think that in in a few years AI will think that in in a few years AI will will dominate the world and it's a will dominate the world and it's a will dominate the world and it's a pretty far-fetched and a uninteresting pretty far-fetched and a uninteresting pretty far-fetched and a uninteresting discussion for my discussion for my discussion for my >> it's interesting to watch people argue >> it's interesting to watch people argue >> it's interesting to watch people argue with AIS when they'll say something like with AIS when they'll say something like with AIS when they'll say something like to a they'll go to chat GBT and say hey to a they'll go to chat GBT and say hey to a they'll go to chat GBT and say hey you know can we make buses free and the you know can we make buses free and the you know can we make buses free and the AI will explain here's how you can make AI will explain here's how you can make AI will explain here's how you can make a bus free and they're like no it's not a bus free and they're like no it's not a bus free and they're like no it's not possible it can never be done and that possible it can never be done and that possible it can never be done and that brings up like the myth of government brings up like the myth of government brings up like the myth of government and whether or not government works for and whether or not government works for and whether or not government works for the people and whether we we all put our the people and whether we we all put our the people and whether we we all put our money in a shared pile my my wife's money in a shared pile my my wife's money in a shared pile my my wife's family in uh in South Africa does shared family in uh in South Africa does shared family in uh in South Africa does shared accounts I think this is something accounts I think this is something accounts I think this is something that's more common outside the United that's more common outside the United that's more common outside the United States than it is inside everyone puts a States than it is inside everyone puts a States than it is inside everyone puts a few dollars and and if someone has an few dollars and and if someone has an few dollars and and if someone has an emergency, they can pull from that emergency, they can pull from that emergency, they can pull from that shared family account. And I've always shared family account. And I've always shared family account. And I've always thought of government being like that.

thought of government being like that. thought of government being like that. We kind of all invest and then when We kind of all invest and then when We kind of all invest and then when someone needs to pull out because they someone needs to pull out because they someone needs to pull out because they need food or they need transportation, need food or they need transportation, need food or they need transportation, then that's their turn. And then one day then that's their turn. And then one day then that's their turn. And then one day it'll be my turn. And those are the it'll be my turn. And those are the it'll be my turn. And those are the kinds of problems that not solving them kinds of problems that not solving them kinds of problems that not solving them is a shared myth. It's not possible. We is a shared myth. It's not possible. We is a shared myth. It's not possible. We can't do it. Every other country in the can't do it. Every other country in the can't do it. Every other country in the world's done it except we can't do it. world's done it except we can't do it. world's done it except we can't do it. Uh it will be interesting to see people Uh it will be interesting to see people Uh it will be interesting to see people apply AI to problems of of real problems apply AI to problems of of real problems apply AI to problems of of real problems of humans and whether or not they'll of humans and whether or not they'll of humans and whether or not they'll push back and declare that no, we can't push back and declare that no, we can't push back and declare that no, we can't the myth the shared myth is too strong the myth the shared myth is too strong the myth the shared myth is too strong or whether we'll actually dismantle some or whether we'll actually dismantle some or whether we'll actually dismantle some of these laws of fiction. of these laws of fiction. of these laws of fiction. >> Yeah. And that's maybe even the the most >> Yeah. And that's maybe even the the most >> Yeah. And that's maybe even the the most important point of the book, right? is important point of the book, right? is important point of the book, right? is to empower us to look at the problems to empower us to look at the problems to empower us to look at the problems that we want to solve and then instead that we want to solve and then instead that we want to solve and then instead of thinking oh what will be my my fing of thinking oh what will be my my fing of thinking oh what will be my my fing on earth because AI is going to do my on earth because AI is going to do my on earth because AI is going to do my job is really to think like what is a job is really to think like what is a job is really to think like what is a job that I'm really interested in doing job that I'm really interested in doing job that I'm really interested in doing a problem I'm really interested in a problem I'm really interested in a problem I'm really interested in solving and how can I do that alongside solving and how can I do that alongside solving and how can I do that alongside AI and and make the world really better AI and and make the world really better AI and and make the world really better for everyone right I think I think this for everyone right I think I think this for everyone right I think I think this will happen but we want people to engage will happen but we want people to engage will happen but we want people to engage and and also I'm glad Glad that you and and also I'm glad Glad that you and and also I'm glad Glad that you talked about uh go government Scott talked about uh go government Scott talked about uh go government Scott because like one of the the points to me because like one of the the points to me because like one of the the points to me in the book is that I feel that uh maybe in the book is that I feel that uh maybe in the book is that I feel that uh maybe other areas like lawyers and economists other areas like lawyers and economists other areas like lawyers and economists have an oversized impact in in in have an oversized impact in in in have an oversized impact in in in politics in this country and politics in this country and politics in this country and technologies don't have as much but uh technologies don't have as much but uh technologies don't have as much but uh really when we look at the impact of

really when we look at the impact of really when we look at the impact of computer systems in our lives I think we computer systems in our lives I think we computer systems in our lives I think we should have more and more people with should have more and more people with should have more and more people with background in computer science engaging background in computer science engaging background in computer science engaging in dig discussion of uh systems in in dig discussion of uh systems in in dig discussion of uh systems in society, data and society, privacy and society, data and society, privacy and society, data and society, privacy and society, cloud and society because this society, cloud and society because this society, cloud and society because this will be super important, right? So to me will be super important, right? So to me will be super important, right? So to me more important [clears throat] we of more important [clears throat] we of more important [clears throat] we of course we want to fix the economy but course we want to fix the economy but course we want to fix the economy but like technology will be a huge factor in like technology will be a huge factor in like technology will be a huge factor in fixing the economy and so I I was hoping fixing the economy and so I I was hoping fixing the economy and so I I was hoping that also with my book I can encourage a that also with my book I can encourage a that also with my book I can encourage a new generation of leaders that that have new generation of leaders that that have new generation of leaders that that have inclination for computer science but but inclination for computer science but but inclination for computer science but but also to think about societal problems also to think about societal problems also to think about societal problems and how can how can they use their and how can how can they use their and how can how can they use their expertise in STEM and and science and expertise in STEM and and science and expertise in STEM and and science and technology to to impact the world technology to to impact the world technology to to impact the world positively. positively. positively. >> That's a great point. As they say, >> That's a great point. As they say, >> That's a great point. As they say, everything's a conspiracy when you don't everything's a conspiracy when you don't everything's a conspiracy when you don't know how anything works. And I learned a know how anything works. And I learned a know how anything works. And I learned a lot reading your book, Human Agency in a lot reading your book, Human Agency in a lot reading your book, Human Agency in a Digital World. And I appreciate that you Digital World. And I appreciate that you Digital World. And I appreciate that you wrote it.

wrote it. wrote it. >> Yeah. Thanks so much, Scott. It was a >> Yeah. Thanks so much, Scott. It was a >> Yeah. Thanks so much, Scott. It was a pleasure writing it. And I was super pleasure writing it. And I was super pleasure writing it. And I was super excited when you wanted to read and and excited when you wanted to read and and excited when you wanted to read and and you shared like very good insights with you shared like very good insights with you shared like very good insights with me. I'm very grateful me. I'm very grateful me. I'm very grateful to have your support and to be in this to have your support and to be in this to have your support and to be in this podcast with you. Well, thank you so podcast with you. Well, thank you so podcast with you. Well, thank you so much. You can get the book anywhere that much. You can get the book anywhere that much. You can get the book anywhere that you buy books, Human Agency in a digital you buy books, Human Agency in a digital you buy books, Human Agency in a digital world. And you can learn more about Mark world. And you can learn more about Mark world. And you can learn more about Mark Marcus Fonura at fonur.org. fo n tou Marcus Fonura at fonur.org. fo n tou Marcus Fonura at fonur.org. fo n tou a.org. We'll put a link to the show a.org. We'll put a link to the show a.org. We'll put a link to the show notes. And this has been another episode notes. And this has been another episode notes. And this has been another episode of Hansel Minutes. And we'll see you of Hansel Minutes. And we'll see you of Hansel Minutes. And we'll see you again next week.