Breaking Barriers in Tech with Brenda Darden Wilkerson

Hi friends, I'm Scott Hansel and this is Hi friends, I'm Scott Hansel and this is another episode of Hansel Minutes. Today another episode of Hansel Minutes. Today another episode of Hansel Minutes. Today I have the pleasure of speaking with I have the pleasure of speaking with I have the pleasure of speaking with Brenda Garden Wilkerson. She's the Brenda Garden Wilkerson. She's the Brenda Garden Wilkerson. She's the president and CEO of Anab.org and a president and CEO of Anab.org and a president and CEO of Anab.org and a longtime advocate for tech equity and longtime advocate for tech equity and longtime advocate for tech equity and inclusive innovation. How are you? I'm inclusive innovation. How are you? I'm inclusive innovation. How are you? I'm great, Scott, and I'm really honored to great, Scott, and I'm really honored to great, Scott, and I'm really honored to be here. And you? How are you today? be here. And you? How are you today? be here. And you? How are you today? >> I'm doing all right. I'm doing all >> I'm doing all right. I'm doing all >> I'm doing all right. I'm doing all right. I I am happy because I get to right. I I am happy because I get to right. I I am happy because I get to talk to cool people every week on the talk to cool people every week on the talk to cool people every week on the podcast, which has been my side hustle podcast, which has been my side hustle podcast, which has been my side hustle for a number of uh a number of years. for a number of uh a number of years. for a number of uh a number of years. So, I'm thrilled to be chatting with you So, I'm thrilled to be chatting with you So, I'm thrilled to be chatting with you today. today. today. >> Thank you. I'm I'm amazed at at what >> Thank you. I'm I'm amazed at at what >> Thank you. I'm I'm amazed at at what you've done. So, I'm glad to be part of you've done. So, I'm glad to be part of you've done. So, I'm glad to be part of it. it. it. >> Well, I'm amazed at what you've done. Um >> Well, I'm amazed at what you've done. Um >> Well, I'm amazed at what you've done. Um before uh Anita B, you kind of before uh Anita B, you kind of before uh Anita B, you kind of transformed uh Chicago public schools. transformed uh Chicago public schools. transformed uh Chicago public schools. You've got a background in computer You've got a background in computer You've got a background in computer science. You've been a computer science. You've been a computer science. You've been a computer scientist. Have you always been into scientist. Have you always been into scientist. Have you always been into tech? What was your first computer? tech? What was your first computer? tech? What was your first computer? >> Oh, please. My first computer I saw when >> Oh, please. My first computer I saw when >> Oh, please. My first computer I saw when I got to college. That's an interesting I got to college. That's an interesting I got to college. That's an interesting story, right? Cuz you know, I got two story, right? Cuz you know, I got two story, right? Cuz you know, I got two educators for parents. And so, yeah, educators for parents. And so, yeah, educators for parents. And so, yeah, education, huge, huge, huge thing. Uh, education, huge, huge, huge thing. Uh, education, huge, huge, huge thing. Uh, but grew up in um, and I always say but grew up in um, and I always say but grew up in um, and I always say this, I we grew up in an all black this, I we grew up in an all black this, I we grew up in an all black neighborhood. That doesn't mean we were neighborhood. That doesn't mean we were neighborhood. That doesn't mean we were poor. It just meant it was all black.

poor. It just meant it was all black. poor. It just meant it was all black. But policy is as it continues now uh But policy is as it continues now uh But policy is as it continues now uh decides who gets what type of curriculum decides who gets what type of curriculum decides who gets what type of curriculum and so computer science was not in my and so computer science was not in my and so computer science was not in my high school. So though I graduated you high school. So though I graduated you high school. So though I graduated you know had to be a good student to live in know had to be a good student to live in know had to be a good student to live in my parents house. Right. Um I had never my parents house. Right. Um I had never my parents house. Right. Um I had never I had never um studied computer science I had never um studied computer science I had never um studied computer science until I got to college. until I got to college. until I got to college. >> Really? >> Really? >> Really? >> That's right. And it was accidental and >> That's right. And it was accidental and >> That's right. And it was accidental and it was also an accident. it was also an accident. it was also an accident. >> So you just fell into computers >> So you just fell into computers >> So you just fell into computers >> sort of. So, I was premed and uh at my >> sort of. So, I was premed and uh at my >> sort of. So, I was premed and uh at my um university premed was um pick a major um university premed was um pick a major um university premed was um pick a major that filled all of the prerequisites, that filled all of the prerequisites, that filled all of the prerequisites, right? And so, I picked biomedical right? And so, I picked biomedical right? And so, I picked biomedical engineering and it had two programming engineering and it had two programming engineering and it had two programming classes. Voila, I'm exposed. classes. Voila, I'm exposed. classes. Voila, I'm exposed. >> Isn't that funny that And I love that >> Isn't that funny that And I love that >> Isn't that funny that And I love that you used exposed because it is that you used exposed because it is that you used exposed because it is that access and that moment of exposure. access and that moment of exposure. access and that moment of exposure. >> Totally. You know, I my my first >> Totally. You know, I my my first >> Totally. You know, I my my first computer I was 12. It's a Commodore 64 computer I was 12. It's a Commodore 64 computer I was 12. It's a Commodore 64 >> and then it was an Apple 2 and somebody >> and then it was an Apple 2 and somebody >> and then it was an Apple 2 and somebody said, "Hey, what's that?" And then we said, "Hey, what's that?" And then we said, "Hey, what's that?" And then we like, "Oh, look at this." Right? You like, "Oh, look at this." Right? You like, "Oh, look at this." Right? You play whatever Tetris or whatever game play whatever Tetris or whatever game play whatever Tetris or whatever game like, like, like, >> "Oh, you know what it was?" They had a >> "Oh, you know what it was?" They had a >> "Oh, you know what it was?" They had a little robot with a Sharpie and a giant little robot with a Sharpie and a giant little robot with a Sharpie and a giant piece of butcher paper and a big long piece of butcher paper and a big long piece of butcher paper and a big long ribbon cable cable and we were making ribbon cable cable and we were making ribbon cable cable and we were making spyroraphs and I remember around, spyroraphs and I remember around, spyroraphs and I remember around, >> right?

>> right? >> right? >> I remember that. >> I remember that. >> I remember that. >> And they had to bust us. They had to bus >> And they had to bust us. They had to bus >> And they had to bust us. They had to bus us to another school us to another school us to another school >> because that was the only school that >> because that was the only school that >> because that was the only school that had that computer and had that little had that computer and had that little had that computer and had that little robot. This is a time when we didn't robot. This is a time when we didn't robot. This is a time when we didn't have pocket supercomputers. have pocket supercomputers. have pocket supercomputers. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> I remember the 2e. Now, we won't talk >> I remember the 2e. Now, we won't talk >> I remember the 2e. Now, we won't talk about the difference in age. We just about the difference in age. We just about the difference in age. We just will not will not will not >> I think we may be contemporary, >> I think we may be contemporary, >> I think we may be contemporary, but uh I remember my sister's uh son. but uh I remember my sister's uh son. but uh I remember my sister's uh son. She had a son and a daughter and the two She had a son and a daughter and the two She had a son and a daughter and the two E went in this boy's room. And again, E went in this boy's room. And again, E went in this boy's room. And again, that was some of the same sort of that was some of the same sort of that was some of the same sort of exposure situation that when I got to exposure situation that when I got to exposure situation that when I got to college, most of the boys had had access college, most of the boys had had access college, most of the boys had had access to the computer, the technology, and not to the computer, the technology, and not to the computer, the technology, and not so much the girls. And so, you know, so much the girls. And so, you know, so much the girls. And so, you know, that that created some of the, you know, that that created some of the, you know, that that created some of the, you know, there was that was a pen drop for me there was that was a pen drop for me there was that was a pen drop for me >> that would come back around as I got >> that would come back around as I got >> that would come back around as I got into my career and found my passion for into my career and found my passion for into my career and found my passion for building computer science in Chicago building computer science in Chicago building computer science in Chicago public schools. I want to go back to public schools. I want to go back to public schools. I want to go back to that for a second, though. They they that for a second, though. They they that for a second, though. They they consciously said, "We're going to consciously said, "We're going to consciously said, "We're going to install the computer in the boys' room."

install the computer in the boys' room." install the computer in the boys' room." >> They did. They they and and my, you >> They did. They they and and my, you >> They did. They they and and my, you know, very educated parents. The the my know, very educated parents. The the my know, very educated parents. The the my brother-in-law is an engineer. My brother-in-law is an engineer. My brother-in-law is an engineer. My sister's a lawyer. They on purpose sister's a lawyer. They on purpose sister's a lawyer. They on purpose bought this computer for a bought this computer for a bought this computer for a three-year-old. He was kind of upset three-year-old. He was kind of upset three-year-old. He was kind of upset because he was like, "Where are the because he was like, "Where are the because he was like, "Where are the other toys?" And of course, back in that other toys?" And of course, back in that other toys?" And of course, back in that day, that was like buying a small car, day, that was like buying a small car, day, that was like buying a small car, you know? So um but yeah he got the you know? So um but yeah he got the you know? So um but yeah he got the computer and and let me tell you my computer and and let me tell you my computer and and let me tell you my history with uh computer science history with uh computer science history with uh computer science education bears this out that the education bears this out that the education bears this out that the assumption was that in those times that assumption was that in those times that assumption was that in those times that it was the something for the boys not so it was the something for the boys not so it was the something for the boys not so much for the girls. much for the girls. much for the girls. >> I had jury duty yesterday and before the >> I had jury duty yesterday and before the >> I had jury duty yesterday and before the jury duty they make you watch a video on jury duty they make you watch a video on jury duty they make you watch a video on unconscious bias. No. unconscious bias. No. unconscious bias. No. >> And the it opens up and it was a a black >> And the it opens up and it was a a black >> And the it opens up and it was a a black woman judge and she had a short uh short woman judge and she had a short uh short woman judge and she had a short uh short TWWA, very tight curls. She gave her TWWA, very tight curls. She gave her TWWA, very tight curls. She gave her speech and then they stopped it and then speech and then they stopped it and then speech and then they stopped it and then a white lady judge came in and said, a white lady judge came in and said, a white lady judge came in and said, "You may have thought this." And she put "You may have thought this." And she put "You may have thought this." And she put up a list of all the things that we may up a list of all the things that we may up a list of all the things that we may have thought about this judge, have thought about this judge, have thought about this judge, competent, intelligent, educated, or you competent, intelligent, educated, or you competent, intelligent, educated, or you she may have thought assertive, you she may have thought assertive, you she may have thought assertive, you know, intense, aggressive, or whatever.

know, intense, aggressive, or whatever. know, intense, aggressive, or whatever. And then we had a whole conversation And then we had a whole conversation And then we had a whole conversation about unconscious bias. Even though your about unconscious bias. Even though your about unconscious bias. Even though your parents wanted the best for the boys and parents wanted the best for the boys and parents wanted the best for the boys and for you, it was unconscious bias that for you, it was unconscious bias that for you, it was unconscious bias that caused them to just install the computer caused them to just install the computer caused them to just install the computer in the in the boys' room. It wasn't on in the in the boys' room. It wasn't on in the in the boys' room. It wasn't on it wasn't malice. it wasn't malice. it wasn't malice. >> I don't know if I I think I would give >> I don't know if I I think I would give >> I don't know if I I think I would give it a different name. I'm not sure if it a different name. I'm not sure if it a different name. I'm not sure if it's it's a name that is something it's it's a name that is something it's it's a name that is something that's stated. I think they followed the that's stated. I think they followed the that's stated. I think they followed the crowd, right? So the images the it's crowd, right? So the images the it's crowd, right? So the images the it's sort of like what you in your training sort of like what you in your training sort of like what you in your training the images of who can, right? So if the the images of who can, right? So if the the images of who can, right? So if the image of who can like what was the name image of who can like what was the name image of who can like what was the name of that show? Silicon Valley. of that show? Silicon Valley. of that show? Silicon Valley. >> It was four dudes, right? Yep. >> It was four dudes, right? Yep. >> It was four dudes, right? Yep. >> There were no women. If you look at the >> There were no women. If you look at the >> There were no women. If you look at the the uh the movie that that that the uh the movie that that that the uh the movie that that that supposedly followed uh what's the Apple supposedly followed uh what's the Apple supposedly followed uh what's the Apple founders's life, they purposely removed founders's life, they purposely removed founders's life, they purposely removed or they had a woman in the movie, I'm or they had a woman in the movie, I'm or they had a woman in the movie, I'm I'm told, who was there to iron his I'm told, who was there to iron his I'm told, who was there to iron his pants. She was one of the major software pants. She was one of the major software pants. She was one of the major software engineers, but they chose to show her engineers, but they chose to show her engineers, but they chose to show her have her show up as somebody who was have her show up as somebody who was have her show up as somebody who was ironing his trousers. Right? So it's ironing his trousers. Right? So it's ironing his trousers. Right? So it's part of that if you believe if you if part of that if you believe if you if part of that if you believe if you if you don't take the time to do the you don't take the time to do the you don't take the time to do the research to say what's what is reality research to say what's what is reality research to say what's what is reality then you would never know about people then you would never know about people then you would never know about people like all the women who were part of the like all the women who were part of the like all the women who were part of the INIAC group who actually helped save 11 INIAC group who actually helped save 11 INIAC group who actually helped save 11 million lives during World War II. And million lives during World War II. And million lives during World War II. And when those pictures finally showed up in when those pictures finally showed up in when those pictures finally showed up in the 80s they thought oh those were the 80s they thought oh those were the 80s they thought oh those were models who were just modeling being in models who were just modeling being in models who were just modeling being in front of a computer. If you don't know, front of a computer. If you don't know, front of a computer. If you don't know, then you go with the images that you're then you go with the images that you're then you go with the images that you're presented with, right? And so I think my

presented with, right? And so I think my presented with, right? And so I think my my sister and brother-in-law were my sister and brother-in-law were my sister and brother-in-law were concerned. They thought, "Oh, it's a boy concerned. They thought, "Oh, it's a boy concerned. They thought, "Oh, it's a boy thing, right?" Cuz that's what we're thing, right?" Cuz that's what we're thing, right?" Cuz that's what we're told. That's what their counselors were told. That's what their counselors were told. That's what their counselors were to told them, etc. to told them, etc. to told them, etc. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um and that's part of the the myth we >> Um and that's part of the the myth we >> Um and that's part of the the myth we have to dispel. have to dispel. have to dispel. >> Yeah. That was the 2015 Steve Jobs movie >> Yeah. That was the 2015 Steve Jobs movie >> Yeah. That was the 2015 Steve Jobs movie and that was Kate Winslett ironing his and that was Kate Winslett ironing his and that was Kate Winslett ironing his shirt before a presentation. shirt before a presentation. shirt before a presentation. >> Yeah, I like that. Go. You're right. It >> Yeah, I like that. Go. You're right. It >> Yeah, I like that. Go. You're right. It is. It's different than unconscious is. It's different than unconscious is. It's different than unconscious bias. It's inertia. It's momentum in a bias. It's inertia. It's momentum in a bias. It's inertia. It's momentum in a certain direction. And there's just no certain direction. And there's just no certain direction. And there's just no reason for it, reason for it, reason for it, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> Other than direct. It's just that's the >> Other than direct. It's just that's the >> Other than direct. It's just that's the direction that people headed. And the direction that people headed. And the direction that people headed. And the idea that you saw a different path is so idea that you saw a different path is so idea that you saw a different path is so important. For me, it wasn't about being important. For me, it wasn't about being important. For me, it wasn't about being a a boy or a girl. It was about the a a boy or a girl. It was about the a a boy or a girl. It was about the accessibility of the money. Like it was accessibility of the money. Like it was accessibility of the money. Like it was like computers were thousands of like computers were thousands of like computers were thousands of dollars. There's just no way. Like rich dollars. There's just no way. Like rich dollars. There's just no way. Like rich people have computers and I don't have people have computers and I don't have people have computers and I don't have computers. And the school had one computers. And the school had one computers. And the school had one computer. Not one per kid, not one per computer. Not one per kid, not one per computer. Not one per kid, not one per classroom, classroom, classroom, >> one. And we had to like check it out. >> one. And we had to like check it out. >> one. And we had to like check it out. >> That's the story that I heard about Bill >> That's the story that I heard about Bill >> That's the story that I heard about Bill Gates, um, you know, who was always sold Gates, um, you know, who was always sold Gates, um, you know, who was always sold as this really exceptional, not that he as this really exceptional, not that he as this really exceptional, not that he isn't, he's an exceptional human being.

isn't, he's an exceptional human being. isn't, he's an exceptional human being. He's smart. he's successful. But he was He's smart. he's successful. But he was He's smart. he's successful. But he was statistically statistically statistically it was statistically significant that he it was statistically significant that he it was statistically significant that he ended up doing what he did because he ended up doing what he did because he ended up doing what he did because he happened to live in a computer in the happened to live in a computer in the happened to live in a computer in the community that had one school in which community that had one school in which community that had one school in which someone decided to invest that major someone decided to invest that major someone decided to invest that major computer purchase and he just happened computer purchase and he just happened computer purchase and he just happened to be chosen to be in a small group of to be chosen to be in a small group of to be chosen to be in a small group of people who got to try that thing out people who got to try that thing out people who got to try that thing out after school or in something like that. after school or in something like that. after school or in something like that. if I'm getting it right. And so it if I'm getting it right. And so it if I'm getting it right. And so it wasn't that okay, I just I'm smart like wasn't that okay, I just I'm smart like wasn't that okay, I just I'm smart like that. It was access and exposure that. It was access and exposure that. It was access and exposure >> that was really kind of narrow. >> that was really kind of narrow. >> that was really kind of narrow. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And unfortunately that's at a pattern of >> And unfortunately that's at a pattern of >> And unfortunately that's at a pattern of narrow. Right. narrow. Right. narrow. Right. >> Exactly. And I think it's important for >> Exactly. And I think it's important for >> Exactly. And I think it's important for people to understand that it's not a dig people to understand that it's not a dig people to understand that it's not a dig on Bill Gates or anybody on Bill Gates or anybody on Bill Gates or anybody >> because it's a formula and it's a >> because it's a formula and it's a >> because it's a formula and it's a formula for luck. formula for luck. formula for luck. >> And luck is being prepared plus >> And luck is being prepared plus >> And luck is being prepared plus opportunity. Right? opportunity. Right? opportunity. Right? >> And because of the luck of my birth, I >> And because of the luck of my birth, I >> And because of the luck of my birth, I was prepared. But when the opportunity was prepared. But when the opportunity was prepared. But when the opportunity to have a computer was presented to me, to have a computer was presented to me, to have a computer was presented to me, luck was invented. So I I look at it as luck was invented. So I I look at it as luck was invented. So I I look at it as how can I create luck for other people.

how can I create luck for other people. how can I create luck for other people. >> Love it. >> Love it. >> Love it. >> And you got to do that by making >> And you got to do that by making >> And you got to do that by making opportunity. I had But there's also the opportunity. I had But there's also the opportunity. I had But there's also the tenaciousness. There are people out tenaciousness. There are people out tenaciousness. There are people out there who are so tenacious that they're there who are so tenacious that they're there who are so tenacious that they're going to create their own luck. I I many going to create their own luck. I I many going to create their own luck. I I many many years ago, true story, I many years ago, true story, I many years ago, true story, I interviewed on this podcast, I'll have interviewed on this podcast, I'll have interviewed on this podcast, I'll have to find the episode, a gentleman named to find the episode, a gentleman named to find the episode, a gentleman named Elvis Chadera who was a Java programmer Elvis Chadera who was a Java programmer Elvis Chadera who was a Java programmer and he did all of his Java programming and he did all of his Java programming and he did all of his Java programming in Nigeria on a nine key phone. He in Nigeria on a nine key phone. He in Nigeria on a nine key phone. He didn't have a keyboard. didn't have a keyboard. didn't have a keyboard. >> Oh my god. >> Oh my god. >> Oh my god. >> He would just go d remember you have to >> He would just go d remember you have to >> He would just go d remember you have to hit like each button three times. hit like each button three times. hit like each button three times. >> I remember that. >> I remember that. >> I remember that. >> I was in Europe and he got out of >> I was in Europe and he got out of >> I was in Europe and he got out of Nigeria. He got a an expert visa, went Nigeria. He got a an expert visa, went Nigeria. He got a an expert visa, went to work as a software engineer. I met to work as a software engineer. I met to work as a software engineer. I met him 10 years later and he just he just him 10 years later and he just he just him 10 years later and he just he just needed to be a maker, right? needed to be a maker, right? needed to be a maker, right? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Imagine what would have happened if he'd >> Imagine what would have happened if he'd >> Imagine what would have happened if he'd had a proper computer 10 years ago. had a proper computer 10 years ago. had a proper computer 10 years ago. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. >> And how far ahead that he would be >> And how far ahead that he would be >> And how far ahead that he would be >> and the impact he would have had on all >> and the impact he would have had on all >> and the impact he would have had on all of us, right? So many times the of us, right? So many times the of us, right? So many times the conversation is around what happens to conversation is around what happens to conversation is around what happens to that person and I want to say yes what that person and I want to say yes what that person and I want to say yes what and what happens to that person's family and what happens to that person's family and what happens to that person's family community and all the rest of us who get community and all the rest of us who get community and all the rest of us who get the benefit of that person's the benefit of that person's the benefit of that person's contributions because they got access contributions because they got access contributions because they got access >> there's a ripple effect 100%. So we need >> there's a ripple effect 100%. So we need >> there's a ripple effect 100%. So we need to get not just computers in front of to get not just computers in front of to get not just computers in front of people but opportunities, people but opportunities, people but opportunities, apprenticeships, uh build pipelines, apprenticeships, uh build pipelines, apprenticeships, uh build pipelines, right?

right? right? >> Uh and also acknowledge I think it's >> Uh and also acknowledge I think it's >> Uh and also acknowledge I think it's fair to say that not every tech job is a fair to say that not every tech job is a fair to say that not every tech job is a coding job. coding job. coding job. >> Like I think that's also a thing. >> Like I think that's also a thing. >> Like I think that's also a thing. There's just tech literacy. There's just tech literacy. There's just tech literacy. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. Now, in this age of AI, I feel >> Yeah. Now, in this age of AI, I feel >> Yeah. Now, in this age of AI, I feel like people are cheapening the value of like people are cheapening the value of like people are cheapening the value of knowledge. And I'm curious how Anita B knowledge. And I'm curious how Anita B knowledge. And I'm curious how Anita B and your team are going to think about and your team are going to think about and your team are going to think about that because like knowing how stuff that because like knowing how stuff that because like knowing how stuff works is important. works is important. works is important. >> You're reeling. People who can't see >> You're reeling. People who can't see >> You're reeling. People who can't see you, uh, you're you're you're reeling you, uh, you're you're you're reeling you, uh, you're you're you're reeling from that question, which means either from that question, which means either from that question, which means either it's a good question or a bad question. it's a good question or a bad question. it's a good question or a bad question. So, I'm interested in your perspective. So, I'm interested in your perspective. So, I'm interested in your perspective. >> It's an excellent question. So, one of >> It's an excellent question. So, one of >> It's an excellent question. So, one of the things that I value about my the things that I value about my the things that I value about my upbringing is that my parents taught me upbringing is that my parents taught me upbringing is that my parents taught me how to think. how to think. how to think. >> They would not allow me to be mentally >> They would not allow me to be mentally >> They would not allow me to be mentally lazy. I remember my father would say if lazy. I remember my father would say if lazy. I remember my father would say if I said something dumb, he would say, I said something dumb, he would say, I said something dumb, he would say, "You ought to use your head for more "You ought to use your head for more "You ought to use your head for more than a hat rack." And that than a hat rack." And that than a hat rack." And that >> I think we had the same parents, >> I think we had the same parents, >> I think we had the same parents, >> right? And and I mean, and that would >> right? And and I mean, and that would >> right? And and I mean, and that would just like shock me out of oh my god, he just like shock me out of oh my god, he just like shock me out of oh my god, he thinks I'm I'm dumb or something. So the thinks I'm I'm dumb or something. So the thinks I'm I'm dumb or something. So the what worries me about AI is that it's what worries me about AI is that it's what worries me about AI is that it's being used as a replacement for human being used as a replacement for human being used as a replacement for human creativity.

creativity. creativity. It should be used as a as an assistant It should be used as a as an assistant It should be used as a as an assistant um a tool that you can you by use by um a tool that you can you by use by um a tool that you can you by use by choice, not be forced to use. choice, not be forced to use. choice, not be forced to use. >> Um it's like having a tool belt. It >> Um it's like having a tool belt. It >> Um it's like having a tool belt. It should have more in it than just a should have more in it than just a should have more in it than just a hammer. hammer. hammer. >> Um and so yes, at anab.org or what we >> Um and so yes, at anab.org or what we >> Um and so yes, at anab.org or what we like to do is talk about the like to do is talk about the like to do is talk about the intersection of knowledge, right? So intersection of knowledge, right? So intersection of knowledge, right? So when I earned my CS degree, it was very when I earned my CS degree, it was very when I earned my CS degree, it was very much focused on CS. What I like to see much focused on CS. What I like to see much focused on CS. What I like to see is for people in the arts to use their is for people in the arts to use their is for people in the arts to use their skill and their particular perspective skill and their particular perspective skill and their particular perspective with tech to invent something that only with tech to invent something that only with tech to invent something that only they would really understand how to to they would really understand how to to they would really understand how to to invent that's impactful on the arts. Not invent that's impactful on the arts. Not invent that's impactful on the arts. Not someone, well I mean I'm arty, but it's someone, well I mean I'm arty, but it's someone, well I mean I'm arty, but it's not someone who's not who's nerdy saying not someone who's not who's nerdy saying not someone who's not who's nerdy saying I think this is what you need. I think this is what you need. I think this is what you need. In the same way, someone who is, you In the same way, someone who is, you In the same way, someone who is, you know, has a medical background, has some know, has a medical background, has some know, has a medical background, has some medical training to come in with some medical training to come in with some medical training to come in with some technical skills and design something technical skills and design something technical skills and design something that's useful for medtech versus that's useful for medtech versus that's useful for medtech versus somebody who's like, I think this should somebody who's like, I think this should somebody who's like, I think this should work for you here. Will it work?

work for you here. Will it work? work for you here. Will it work? Maybe. and in some circumstances, but Maybe. and in some circumstances, but Maybe. and in some circumstances, but wouldn't it be wouldn't the likelihood wouldn't it be wouldn't the likelihood wouldn't it be wouldn't the likelihood of of the success of that product of of the success of that product of of the success of that product actually serving a segment of the actually serving a segment of the actually serving a segment of the population increase if you were to have population increase if you were to have population increase if you were to have a cross-section of knowledge, not just a cross-section of knowledge, not just a cross-section of knowledge, not just the those of us who understand how to the those of us who understand how to the those of us who understand how to speak with a computer? The last thing speak with a computer? The last thing speak with a computer? The last thing I'll say and then I'll stop talking is I'll say and then I'll stop talking is I'll say and then I'll stop talking is with AI. Yes, AI is creating code so with AI. Yes, AI is creating code so with AI. Yes, AI is creating code so that you don't have to know how to code that you don't have to know how to code that you don't have to know how to code so that in order to create say a program so that in order to create say a program so that in order to create say a program that does something but the AI is not that does something but the AI is not that does something but the AI is not perfect and I don't know that it ever perfect and I don't know that it ever perfect and I don't know that it ever will be. And so the knowledge of what is will be. And so the knowledge of what is will be. And so the knowledge of what is actually supposed to happen would help actually supposed to happen would help actually supposed to happen would help that code actually end up being that code actually end up being that code actually end up being something useful because that person something useful because that person something useful because that person with the knowledge could come in and and with the knowledge could come in and and with the knowledge could come in and and make it so. make it so. make it so. >> Yeah. Yeah, I want to yes and everything >> Yeah. Yeah, I want to yes and everything >> Yeah. Yeah, I want to yes and everything that you said and also offer the that you said and also offer the that you said and also offer the perspective that perspective that perspective that in the current system that we have at in the current system that we have at in the current system that we have at this place where we are in capitalism in this place where we are in capitalism in this place where we are in capitalism in the northern hemisphere value and one's the northern hemisphere value and one's the northern hemisphere value and one's internal value seems to be measured internal value seems to be measured internal value seems to be measured based on their ability to produce based on their ability to produce based on their ability to produce >> but not their inherent value and who >> but not their inherent value and who >> but not their inherent value and who they are and what they know and the they are and what they know and the they are and what they know and the context in which they come from. And now context in which they come from. And now context in which they come from. And now if AI says, well, all that stuff that if AI says, well, all that stuff that if AI says, well, all that stuff that you were going to go to school for 4 you were going to go to school for 4 you were going to go to school for 4 years and no, years and no, years and no, >> I already know that people feel their >> I already know that people feel their >> I already know that people feel their own inherent value being cheapened, own inherent value being cheapened, own inherent value being cheapened, >> right?

>> right? >> right? >> While what their real value is is who >> While what their real value is is who >> While what their real value is is who they are, where they came from, their they are, where they came from, their they are, where they came from, their context, their knowledge, their context, their knowledge, their context, their knowledge, their background because that's the thing that background because that's the thing that background because that's the thing that provides them the context to use the AI provides them the context to use the AI provides them the context to use the AI to build solutions. to build solutions. to build solutions. >> Correct. So to your example, if someone >> Correct. So to your example, if someone >> Correct. So to your example, if someone has anam a place that they grew up and has anam a place that they grew up and has anam a place that they grew up and there's a medical problem, they want to there's a medical problem, they want to there's a medical problem, they want to support people uh in a certain way, they support people uh in a certain way, they support people uh in a certain way, they don't want that the solution pushed at don't want that the solution pushed at don't want that the solution pushed at them from outside forces. They want to them from outside forces. They want to them from outside forces. They want to pull in pull in pull in >> that solution, make that solution with >> that solution, make that solution with >> that solution, make that solution with the context that they have. And we need the context that they have. And we need the context that they have. And we need to remind people that in their in to remind people that in their in to remind people that in their in college that their value is their their college that their value is their their college that their value is their their upbringing, their experience, their upbringing, their experience, their upbringing, their experience, their community, their families. Uh, and I community, their families. Uh, and I community, their families. Uh, and I think that we need to make sure that think that we need to make sure that think that we need to make sure that we're putting together curricula that we're putting together curricula that we're putting together curricula that doesn't take that away from them. doesn't take that away from them. doesn't take that away from them. >> I I totally agree and I think that is >> I I totally agree and I think that is >> I I totally agree and I think that is the inherent creativity that we come the inherent creativity that we come the inherent creativity that we come into the world with. Um, I think I'm into the world with. Um, I think I'm into the world with. Um, I think I'm really bad with names. I think is sir really bad with names. I think is sir really bad with names. I think is sir Kenneth someone um he recently passed Kenneth someone um he recently passed Kenneth someone um he recently passed away but he did a TED talk that talked away but he did a TED talk that talked away but he did a TED talk that talked about how the creativity that we come about how the creativity that we come about how the creativity that we come into the world with many times our in into the world with many times our in into the world with many times our in our educational institution can take it our educational institution can take it our educational institution can take it away from them away from them away from them >> because Ken Robinson >> because Ken Robinson >> because Ken Robinson >> so Ken Robinson love him and I think >> so Ken Robinson love him and I think >> so Ken Robinson love him and I think that was one of the things that I was that was one of the things that I was that was one of the things that I was trying to do with CS for all in Chicago trying to do with CS for all in Chicago trying to do with CS for all in Chicago public schools was to grab kids before public schools was to grab kids before public schools was to grab kids before they were many times socialized out of they were many times socialized out of they were many times socialized out of what they brought into the world what they brought into the world what they brought into the world naturally. Like for instance, many times naturally. Like for instance, many times naturally. Like for instance, many times people will say and I had this people will say and I had this people will say and I had this experience when I was uh an adjunct at

experience when I was uh an adjunct at experience when I was uh an adjunct at at a community college. The women who I at a community college. The women who I at a community college. The women who I would have in my um classes would say would have in my um classes would say would have in my um classes would say they would always hearken back or all of they would always hearken back or all of they would always hearken back or all of my students, all of my grown students my students, all of my grown students my students, all of my grown students would do this to what some teacher had would do this to what some teacher had would do this to what some teacher had told them they weren't good at. Well, told them they weren't good at. Well, told them they weren't good at. Well, Mr. Smith says, "I was not good at Mr. Smith says, "I was not good at Mr. Smith says, "I was not good at math." Well, we actually know girls are math." Well, we actually know girls are math." Well, we actually know girls are better at math early. It takes them a better at math early. It takes them a better at math early. It takes them a while to get socialized out of it before while to get socialized out of it before while to get socialized out of it before like graduation. All of a sudden they're like graduation. All of a sudden they're like graduation. All of a sudden they're like, "Oh, I don't like math." Well, like, "Oh, I don't like math." Well, like, "Oh, I don't like math." Well, they've been told that. It wasn't that they've been told that. It wasn't that they've been told that. It wasn't that they were inherently bad at math. And so they were inherently bad at math. And so they were inherently bad at math. And so where our opportunity was was to say, where our opportunity was was to say, where our opportunity was was to say, "Let me get you before you have been "Let me get you before you have been "Let me get you before you have been told you're not good at this and give told you're not good at this and give told you're not good at this and give you the tool and the access and let you you the tool and the access and let you you the tool and the access and let you see what you can do based upon your see what you can do based upon your see what you can do based upon your background, your your wishes, desires, background, your your wishes, desires, background, your your wishes, desires, what you're a ballet dancer. There might what you're a ballet dancer. There might what you're a ballet dancer. There might be something that you would bring be something that you would bring be something that you would bring uniquely to computer science that uniquely to computer science that uniquely to computer science that somebody who plays soccer wouldn't, but somebody who plays soccer wouldn't, but somebody who plays soccer wouldn't, but both are valid." both are valid." both are valid." >> Yeah. And like if you use the ballet >> Yeah. And like if you use the ballet >> Yeah. And like if you use the ballet dancer thing as an example, currently dancer thing as an example, currently dancer thing as an example, currently the way that we think as a society, at the way that we think as a society, at the way that we think as a society, at least in this hemisphere, is that like, least in this hemisphere, is that like, least in this hemisphere, is that like, oh well, those two things are not oh well, those two things are not oh well, those two things are not compatible. Therefore, there are no compatible. Therefore, there are no compatible. Therefore, there are no ballet dancers who are also computer ballet dancers who are also computer ballet dancers who are also computer scientists, right?

scientists, right? scientists, right? >> And they're not going to solve ballet >> And they're not going to solve ballet >> And they're not going to solve ballet problems with computer vision, right? problems with computer vision, right? problems with computer vision, right? >> When clearly that's a problem that >> When clearly that's a problem that >> When clearly that's a problem that should be explored. should be explored. should be explored. >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> I do think that we're at an opportunity >> I do think that we're at an opportunity >> I do think that we're at an opportunity here though because the young people, here though because the young people, here though because the young people, you know how they always say the kids you know how they always say the kids you know how they always say the kids are going to be okay? The young people are going to be okay? The young people are going to be okay? The young people are exploring spaces in ways that we are exploring spaces in ways that we are exploring spaces in ways that we didn't. I'll give you an example. Let me didn't. I'll give you an example. Let me didn't. I'll give you an example. Let me know what you think. I have a know what you think. I have a know what you think. I have a 17-year-old. Uh, he loves He's a varsity 17-year-old. Uh, he loves He's a varsity 17-year-old. Uh, he loves He's a varsity football. I don't know anything about football. I don't know anything about football. I don't know anything about football, but I try to be a good dad. football, but I try to be a good dad. football, but I try to be a good dad. So, now I know everything about So, now I know everything about So, now I know everything about football, right? I'm there. I got the I football, right? I'm there. I got the I football, right? I'm there. I got the I got the the gimbal with the and I'm got the the gimbal with the and I'm got the the gimbal with the and I'm doing video of my son. I got the whole doing video of my son. I got the whole doing video of my son. I got the whole thing. Like, I I'm a football dad. thing. Like, I I'm a football dad. thing. Like, I I'm a football dad. >> And I'm like, I guess I ended up with a >> And I'm like, I guess I ended up with a >> And I'm like, I guess I ended up with a bro for for a kid because every kid's bro for for a kid because every kid's bro for for a kid because every kid's different. I got one kid who watches different. I got one kid who watches different. I got one kid who watches anime. I got one who's a bro. anime. I got one who's a bro. anime. I got one who's a bro. >> And he says, I want I want these pants, >> And he says, I want I want these pants, >> And he says, I want I want these pants, Dad. They're like $400 Japanese denim Dad. They're like $400 Japanese denim Dad. They're like $400 Japanese denim jeans. And I said, "Good luck with jeans. And I said, "Good luck with jeans. And I said, "Good luck with that." And he's like, "Well, I could that." And he's like, "Well, I could that." And he's like, "Well, I could probably just make them." And I was probably just make them." And I was probably just make them." And I was like, "I mean, yeah. How can I How can I like, "I mean, yeah. How can I How can I like, "I mean, yeah. How can I How can I support you?" Uh, he says, "Does Nana support you?" Uh, he says, "Does Nana support you?" Uh, he says, "Does Nana have a sewing machine?" Okay, let's do have a sewing machine?" Okay, let's do have a sewing machine?" Okay, let's do it. Go to get Nana's sewing machine. He it. Go to get Nana's sewing machine. He it. Go to get Nana's sewing machine. He buys a bolt of denim. He gets the other buys a bolt of denim. He gets the other buys a bolt of denim. He gets the other bros to come over. So, I have a house bros to come over. So, I have a house bros to come over. So, I have a house full of football men.

full of football men. full of football men. big thick neck, you know, you know, like big thick neck, you know, you know, like big thick neck, you know, you know, like hack squat, you know, young men. Bro, hack squat, you know, young men. Bro, hack squat, you know, young men. Bro, those jeans are sick, bro. And they they those jeans are sick, bro. And they they those jeans are sick, bro. And they they broed up a pair of denim jeans in about broed up a pair of denim jeans in about broed up a pair of denim jeans in about two weeks. two weeks. two weeks. >> And what's so cool about that is that in >> And what's so cool about that is that in >> And what's so cool about that is that in the 80s, the 80s, the 80s, >> there would have been a whole Karate Kid >> there would have been a whole Karate Kid >> there would have been a whole Karate Kid movie about the football player who movie about the football player who movie about the football player who getting teased for making jeans and he getting teased for making jeans and he getting teased for making jeans and he wants to be a fashion kid. wants to be a fashion kid. wants to be a fashion kid. >> And what's great about it is that he's >> And what's great about it is that he's >> And what's great about it is that he's still a bro. Y, still a bro. Y, still a bro. Y, >> but now he's a bro with really nice >> but now he's a bro with really nice >> but now he's a bro with really nice looking jeans that he made himself looking jeans that he made himself looking jeans that he made himself >> that he made himself >> that he made himself >> that he made himself >> without thinking about that. >> without thinking about that. >> without thinking about that. >> I love that story and it's part of what >> I love that story and it's part of what >> I love that story and it's part of what I think needs to be like a rule that I think needs to be like a rule that I think needs to be like a rule that gets stated often. More than one thing gets stated often. More than one thing gets stated often. More than one thing can be true at one time. can be true at one time. can be true at one time. >> Are we in a society where where two >> Are we in a society where where two >> Are we in a society where where two things cannot be true anymore? Is that things cannot be true anymore? Is that things cannot be true anymore? Is that where we're at? where we're at? where we're at? >> I know. I mean, somewhere I felt maybe >> I know. I mean, somewhere I felt maybe >> I know. I mean, somewhere I felt maybe that was happening. I don't know. Right. that was happening. I don't know. Right. that was happening. I don't know. Right. So he could be a football pro, he could So he could be a football pro, he could So he could be a football pro, he could go get Nana's sewing machine, you know, go get Nana's sewing machine, you know, go get Nana's sewing machine, you know, which is a lost art. I really, you know, which is a lost art. I really, you know, which is a lost art. I really, you know, I I the fact that that's coming back at I I the fact that that's coming back at I I the fact that that's coming back at all for for folks.

all for for folks. all for for folks. >> And you know what's doing it? It's Tik >> And you know what's doing it? It's Tik >> And you know what's doing it? It's Tik Tok. Tok. Tok. >> I I initially was like, Tik Tok's going >> I I initially was like, Tik Tok's going >> I I initially was like, Tik Tok's going to rot your brain. And and it will at to rot your brain. And and it will at to rot your brain. And and it will at some point, but but the amount of little some point, but but the amount of little some point, but but the amount of little snackable knowledge, he's like, man, snackable knowledge, he's like, man, snackable knowledge, he's like, man, these pockets are killing me. Man, these these pockets are killing me. Man, these these pockets are killing me. Man, these these buttons are killing me. And he these buttons are killing me. And he these buttons are killing me. And he would get angry, go for a walk, come would get angry, go for a walk, come would get angry, go for a walk, come back, and he says, "I found this other back, and he says, "I found this other back, and he says, "I found this other dude on TikTok that knew how to do dude on TikTok that knew how to do dude on TikTok that knew how to do buttons, and I came back with a new buttons, and I came back with a new buttons, and I came back with a new perspective." perspective." perspective." >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> And I was like, "You should read the >> And I was like, "You should read the >> And I was like, "You should read the manual." He's like, "No, I don't know. manual." He's like, "No, I don't know. manual." He's like, "No, I don't know. Read the manual. There's a YouTuber that Read the manual. There's a YouTuber that Read the manual. There's a YouTuber that does that, right?" He could have Twitch does that, right?" He could have Twitch does that, right?" He could have Twitch streamed the whole thing. And I just streamed the whole thing. And I just streamed the whole thing. And I just think that that's the kind of attitude think that that's the kind of attitude think that that's the kind of attitude that we need. But at the same time, if a that we need. But at the same time, if a that we need. But at the same time, if a young a young woman were to Twitch young a young woman were to Twitch young a young woman were to Twitch stream uh her her live coding, uh stream uh her her live coding, uh stream uh her her live coding, uh unfortunately, some bros are going to unfortunately, some bros are going to unfortunately, some bros are going to come in and probably give her a hard come in and probably give her a hard come in and probably give her a hard time. time. time. >> And that's something we need to work on >> And that's something we need to work on >> And that's something we need to work on as well. I I read an interesting article as well. I I read an interesting article as well. I I read an interesting article you probably saw a couple of weeks ago you probably saw a couple of weeks ago you probably saw a couple of weeks ago about cringe culture and how people about cringe culture and how people about cringe culture and how people don't want to be cringe. Everyone's don't want to be cringe. Everyone's don't want to be cringe. Everyone's afraid afraid afraid >> to be themselves >> to be themselves >> to be themselves >> because they're afraid a camera will be >> because they're afraid a camera will be >> because they're afraid a camera will be pointed at them, pointed at them, pointed at them, >> right? I mean, and think about it. when >> right? I mean, and think about it. when >> right? I mean, and think about it. when we were coming along, some of the dumb we were coming along, some of the dumb we were coming along, some of the dumb stuff that I thought of or did, I'm glad stuff that I thought of or did, I'm glad stuff that I thought of or did, I'm glad no one had a camera to point at me.

no one had a camera to point at me. no one had a camera to point at me. There's no history, right? And so, it There's no history, right? And so, it There's no history, right? And so, it does put a different amount of pressure does put a different amount of pressure does put a different amount of pressure on young people on their ability to on young people on their ability to on young people on their ability to really be themselves and to really uh really be themselves and to really uh really be themselves and to really uh investigate and try out things that help investigate and try out things that help investigate and try out things that help them figure out who they want to be. I them figure out who they want to be. I them figure out who they want to be. I mean, as I shared, I had never even I mean, as I shared, I had never even I mean, as I shared, I had never even I mean, I think I had had access to a mean, I think I had had access to a mean, I think I had had access to a computer for I know not for learning computer for I know not for learning computer for I know not for learning purposes at all before I got to college. purposes at all before I got to college. purposes at all before I got to college. Um, but just think about what could have Um, but just think about what could have Um, but just think about what could have been different for me and how different been different for me and how different been different for me and how different my life did turn out when I did get my life did turn out when I did get my life did turn out when I did get access, right? my whole career even access, right? my whole career even access, right? my whole career even though you know I left software though you know I left software though you know I left software engineering at that ripe old age of 35 engineering at that ripe old age of 35 engineering at that ripe old age of 35 that unfortunately is still the average that unfortunately is still the average that unfortunately is still the average for women for women for women >> um to leave tech um then I went in >> um to leave tech um then I went in >> um to leave tech um then I went in education but I've stayed around education but I've stayed around education but I've stayed around technology and it was all about that technology and it was all about that technology and it was all about that that one opportunity to have access it's an advertising break we're going to it's an advertising break we're going to take a moment and chat with our new take a moment and chat with our new take a moment and chat with our new sponsor ShareGate by workleap you know sponsor ShareGate by workleap you know sponsor ShareGate by workleap you know if you're thinking about deploying if you're thinking about deploying if you're thinking about deploying co-pilot in an organization, but you've co-pilot in an organization, but you've co-pilot in an organization, but you've got a whole bunch of documents and a got a whole bunch of documents and a got a whole bunch of documents and a whole bunch of information that can be a whole bunch of information that can be a whole bunch of information that can be a new challenge. Shayen Gimy, what makes new challenge. Shayen Gimy, what makes new challenge. Shayen Gimy, what makes it so challenging for IT teams? C-Pilot it so challenging for IT teams? C-Pilot it so challenging for IT teams? C-Pilot is an incredible tool, but only if your is an incredible tool, but only if your is an incredible tool, but only if your Microsoft 365 environment is clean, Microsoft 365 environment is clean, Microsoft 365 environment is clean, secure, and structured. You know, if secure, and structured. You know, if secure, and structured. You know, if your permissions are a mess or your your permissions are a mess or your your permissions are a mess or your teams are inactive, and your SharePoint teams are inactive, and your SharePoint teams are inactive, and your SharePoint sites are unstructured, you're basically sites are unstructured, you're basically sites are unstructured, you're basically setting Copilot up to pull the wrong setting Copilot up to pull the wrong setting Copilot up to pull the wrong data for the wrong people. And C-pilot

data for the wrong people. And C-pilot data for the wrong people. And C-pilot only works effectively if everything is only works effectively if everything is only works effectively if everything is in one tenant. So if your data is in one tenant. So if your data is in one tenant. So if your data is scattered across multiple tenants, scattered across multiple tenants, scattered across multiple tenants, Copilot's ability to retrieve and Copilot's ability to retrieve and Copilot's ability to retrieve and process information is going to be process information is going to be process information is going to be seriously limited. That's why data seriously limited. That's why data seriously limited. That's why data consolidation should be a top priority consolidation should be a top priority consolidation should be a top priority in your co-pilot readiness plan. You in your co-pilot readiness plan. You in your co-pilot readiness plan. You know, you hear the saying garbage in, know, you hear the saying garbage in, know, you hear the saying garbage in, garbage out. An outdated file from 8 garbage out. An outdated file from 8 garbage out. An outdated file from 8 years ago with more views might take years ago with more views might take years ago with more views might take priority over a newer, more accurate priority over a newer, more accurate priority over a newer, more accurate file with fewer views, leading to file with fewer views, leading to file with fewer views, leading to unreliable answers. Without cleaning up unreliable answers. Without cleaning up unreliable answers. Without cleaning up your content and structuring your data your content and structuring your data your content and structuring your data properly, you could end up with Copilot properly, you could end up with Copilot properly, you could end up with Copilot generating responses based on outdated generating responses based on outdated generating responses based on outdated or irrelevant files. Which is exactly or irrelevant files. Which is exactly or irrelevant files. Which is exactly why we built our co-pilot readiness why we built our co-pilot readiness why we built our co-pilot readiness assessment. It analyzes your tenant and assessment. It analyzes your tenant and assessment. It analyzes your tenant and gives IT teams clear insights and gives IT teams clear insights and gives IT teams clear insights and recommendations so they can get their recommendations so they can get their recommendations so they can get their environment in shape before rolling out environment in shape before rolling out environment in shape before rolling out co-pilot. That way you're not just co-pilot. That way you're not just co-pilot. That way you're not just flipping a switch and hoping for the flipping a switch and hoping for the flipping a switch and hoping for the best. Now we're cooking with gas. This best. Now we're cooking with gas. This best. Now we're cooking with gas. This is great. Now I know how ShareGate by is great. Now I know how ShareGate by is great. Now I know how ShareGate by WorkLap is going to help me out. It is WorkLap is going to help me out. It is WorkLap is going to help me out. It is packed with best practices. It's going packed with best practices. It's going packed with best practices. It's going to guide you at every step. It's your to guide you at every step. It's your to guide you at every step. It's your out of the box Microsoft 365 migration out of the box Microsoft 365 migration out of the box Microsoft 365 migration tool. Check it out at sharegate.com. And tool. Check it out at sharegate.com. And tool. Check it out at sharegate.com. And thank you for being a sponsor of Hansel thank you for being a sponsor of Hansel thank you for being a sponsor of Hansel Minutes.

Minutes. Minutes. So speaking of access as well as seeing So speaking of access as well as seeing So speaking of access as well as seeing oneself in this space at the GraceHopper oneself in this space at the GraceHopper oneself in this space at the GraceHopper celebration, have you seen people go to celebration, have you seen people go to celebration, have you seen people go to an event of technologists and go just be an event of technologists and go just be an event of technologists and go just be overwhelmed like wait a second I'm in an overwhelmed like wait a second I'm in an overwhelmed like wait a second I'm in an all women tech event or prim primarily all women tech event or prim primarily all women tech event or prim primarily women tech event and that does that women tech event and that does that women tech event and that does that brighten them? Does it calm them? Does brighten them? Does it calm them? Does brighten them? Does it calm them? Does it keep them from quitting tech? it keep them from quitting tech? it keep them from quitting tech? >> So that is an excellent question and let >> So that is an excellent question and let >> So that is an excellent question and let me let me try to answer it. First of me let me try to answer it. First of me let me try to answer it. First of all, it is the most mythbusting all, it is the most mythbusting all, it is the most mythbusting experience that one might ever experience that one might ever experience that one might ever experience regardless of your gender. experience regardless of your gender. experience regardless of your gender. >> Because if you're understanding, if your >> Because if you're understanding, if your >> Because if you're understanding, if your expectation of you watching TV and you expectation of you watching TV and you expectation of you watching TV and you think that that it's only the bros that think that that it's only the bros that think that that it's only the bros that do tech and you show up and there are do tech and you show up and there are do tech and you show up and there are all these brilliant women from around all these brilliant women from around all these brilliant women from around the world, we've had as many as 155 the world, we've had as many as 155 the world, we've had as many as 155 countries represented at GraceHopper countries represented at GraceHopper countries represented at GraceHopper celebration. And what's so striking, not celebration. And what's so striking, not celebration. And what's so striking, not only is the numbers, you're just only is the numbers, you're just only is the numbers, you're just standing there looking around going, "I standing there looking around going, "I standing there looking around going, "I thought there weren't any." You know, thought there weren't any." You know, thought there weren't any." You know, cuz you'll hear that. Why didn't you cuz you'll hear that. Why didn't you cuz you'll hear that. Why didn't you hire any women? Well, I I I couldn't hire any women? Well, I I I couldn't hire any women? Well, I I I couldn't find any. Well, there's 30,000 of them find any. Well, there's 30,000 of them find any. Well, there's 30,000 of them right here. You should show up over right here. You should show up over right here. You should show up over here. And and so that already is this here. And and so that already is this here. And and so that already is this like physical like physical like physical experience of busting the lie. But it experience of busting the lie. But it experience of busting the lie. But it works for both women and men because for works for both women and men because for works for both women and men because for me, I heard there weren't that many. And me, I heard there weren't that many. And me, I heard there weren't that many. And I had been in a situation where I was I had been in a situation where I was I had been in a situation where I was always in the minority. There was one always in the minority. There was one always in the minority. There was one woman I was it or there were few women woman I was it or there were few women woman I was it or there were few women and I was one of the few. But for the and I was one of the few. But for the and I was one of the few. But for the men as well, they're looking around men as well, they're looking around men as well, they're looking around like, "Wait, what is happening?" And

like, "Wait, what is happening?" And like, "Wait, what is happening?" And because it's three or four day because it's three or four day because it's three or four day experience, the women take such great um experience, the women take such great um experience, the women take such great um opportunity to talk about everything opportunity to talk about everything opportunity to talk about everything that they're doing every moment in the that they're doing every moment in the that they're doing every moment in the elevator sitting at lunch. I mean, elevator sitting at lunch. I mean, elevator sitting at lunch. I mean, there's it's just all this rich there's it's just all this rich there's it's just all this rich conversation. And I remember there was conversation. And I remember there was conversation. And I remember there was one gentleman who had just recently one gentleman who had just recently one gentleman who had just recently joined my board who was at the joined my board who was at the joined my board who was at the conference and he said to me, he said, conference and he said to me, he said, conference and he said to me, he said, "Brenda, I got on the hotel at 27. By "Brenda, I got on the hotel at 27. By "Brenda, I got on the hotel at 27. By the time I got to two, I had heard three the time I got to two, I had heard three the time I got to two, I had heard three pitches of women talking to each other, pitches of women talking to each other, pitches of women talking to each other, talking about what they were doing." I talking about what they were doing." I talking about what they were doing." I was like, "Yeah, we don't mess around, was like, "Yeah, we don't mess around, was like, "Yeah, we don't mess around, dude." You know, so it's it's a dude." You know, so it's it's a dude." You know, so it's it's a situation where people are encouraged situation where people are encouraged situation where people are encouraged to think about their possibilities to think about their possibilities to think about their possibilities because they see the possibility. because they see the possibility. because they see the possibility. >> I can see where showing up and being the >> I can see where showing up and being the >> I can see where showing up and being the only only only is something that one can is something that one can is something that one can intellectualize, but when one feels it intellectualize, but when one feels it intellectualize, but when one feels it viscerally, yes, viscerally, yes, viscerally, yes, >> it changes their perspective. >> it changes their perspective. >> it changes their perspective. >> Uh >> Uh >> Uh >> my wife is from Zimbabwe. We've been >> my wife is from Zimbabwe. We've been >> my wife is from Zimbabwe. We've been married 25 years this year and I'm Thank married 25 years this year and I'm Thank married 25 years this year and I'm Thank you. when I'm standing like on the you. when I'm standing like on the you. when I'm standing like on the street in like downtown Bulwayo street in like downtown Bulwayo street in like downtown Bulwayo Zimbabwe.

Zimbabwe. Zimbabwe. >> Every once in a while I'll be like, >> Every once in a while I'll be like, >> Every once in a while I'll be like, >> "Oh crap, there's not a white dude >> "Oh crap, there's not a white dude >> "Oh crap, there's not a white dude within a couple hundred miles of here." within a couple hundred miles of here." within a couple hundred miles of here." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um and it's like is that must be what it >> Um and it's like is that must be what it >> Um and it's like is that must be what it feels like to hang around in Portland, feels like to hang around in Portland, feels like to hang around in Portland, you know? And it's such an obvious you know? And it's such an obvious you know? And it's such an obvious statement. statement. statement. >> It's such an obvious statement. Oh, >> It's such an obvious statement. Oh, >> It's such an obvious statement. Oh, yeah. I I I totally it must be hard. I yeah. I I I totally it must be hard. I yeah. I I I totally it must be hard. I can totally understand what you feel. can totally understand what you feel. can totally understand what you feel. But then you feel it and you're like, But then you feel it and you're like, But then you feel it and you're like, "Oh, "Oh, "Oh, >> oh, it's from the intellectual to the >> oh, it's from the intellectual to the >> oh, it's from the intellectual to the actual, right?" And so that to me has actual, right?" And so that to me has actual, right?" And so that to me has been one of the benefits for many of the been one of the benefits for many of the been one of the benefits for many of the gentlemen that show up at the conference gentlemen that show up at the conference gentlemen that show up at the conference because we always there's always men because we always there's always men because we always there's always men there. U in fact the first time I even there. U in fact the first time I even there. U in fact the first time I even learned of what the Gracehopper learned of what the Gracehopper learned of what the Gracehopper celebration was was from a couple of my celebration was was from a couple of my celebration was was from a couple of my teachers when I was at the district who teachers when I was at the district who teachers when I was at the district who came to me, male teachers, and said, came to me, male teachers, and said, came to me, male teachers, and said, "Can you pay for me to go to this "Can you pay for me to go to this "Can you pay for me to go to this conference?" And I was like, "Well, what conference?" And I was like, "Well, what conference?" And I was like, "Well, what is it?" and they're describing it and is it?" and they're describing it and is it?" and they're describing it and all these flowery terms and I remember all these flowery terms and I remember all these flowery terms and I remember saying why are you interested in going saying why are you interested in going saying why are you interested in going to that and they talked about how much to that and they talked about how much to that and they talked about how much they recognized they were able to place they recognized they were able to place they recognized they were able to place themselves in the literal myth of what themselves in the literal myth of what themselves in the literal myth of what it takes to be a computer scientist and it takes to be a computer scientist and it takes to be a computer scientist and who should and they were able to come who should and they were able to come who should and they were able to come back and look at their classrooms and back and look at their classrooms and back and look at their classrooms and understood that it wasn't that the women understood that it wasn't that the women understood that it wasn't that the women weren't interested is that they didn't weren't interested is that they didn't weren't interested is that they didn't feel welcome because of how feel welcome because of how feel welcome because of how lopsided the room had been set up. It lopsided the room had been set up. It lopsided the room had been set up. It was only focused on the interests of of was only focused on the interests of of was only focused on the interests of of young men, not on women as well. And so young men, not on women as well. And so young men, not on women as well. And so they'd learned they'd learned they'd learned >> from physically being in that space.

>> from physically being in that space. >> from physically being in that space. >> Yeah. And people people who might >> Yeah. And people people who might >> Yeah. And people people who might disagree and think that this is a a disagree and think that this is a a disagree and think that this is a a political statement or a left versus political statement or a left versus political statement or a left versus right issue and but they may 25 minutes right issue and but they may 25 minutes right issue and but they may 25 minutes into this podcast. I would encourage into this podcast. I would encourage into this podcast. I would encourage them to think about it in a way that them to think about it in a way that them to think about it in a way that fits their their environment. Now, uh, fits their their environment. Now, uh, fits their their environment. Now, uh, you know, I'm a middle-aged white guy you know, I'm a middle-aged white guy you know, I'm a middle-aged white guy from the West Coast, but I'm the first from the West Coast, but I'm the first from the West Coast, but I'm the first one in my family to go to college, and I one in my family to go to college, and I one in my family to go to college, and I was an adjunct at community college, and was an adjunct at community college, and was an adjunct at community college, and I graduated from community college. Even I graduated from community college. Even I graduated from community college. Even now, 32 years into my career as a now, 32 years into my career as a now, 32 years into my career as a software engineer, and working as a vice software engineer, and working as a vice software engineer, and working as a vice president at Microsoft, I'll meet a president at Microsoft, I'll meet a president at Microsoft, I'll meet a young person who went to MIT, who went young person who went to MIT, who went young person who went to MIT, who went to Yale, and I will be intimidated to Yale, and I will be intimidated to Yale, and I will be intimidated because that's not my people. I did not because that's not my people. I did not because that's not my people. I did not grow up like that, grow up like that, grow up like that, >> and I will feel that. the the difference >> and I will feel that. the the difference >> and I will feel that. the the difference is that they can't look at me and tell. is that they can't look at me and tell. is that they can't look at me and tell. >> So they can't see that I feel that way. >> So they can't see that I feel that way. >> So they can't see that I feel that way. >> But I try to keep that that that sense >> But I try to keep that that that sense >> But I try to keep that that that sense of empathy and wonder, but also of empathy and wonder, but also of empathy and wonder, but also appreciation that I kind of made it out. appreciation that I kind of made it out. appreciation that I kind of made it out. >> But also like that's my thing to carry. >> But also like that's my thing to carry. >> But also like that's my thing to carry. But imagine if I had a shirt that said I But imagine if I had a shirt that said I But imagine if I had a shirt that said I went to community college on the outside went to community college on the outside went to community college on the outside and like everyone could tell. I would and like everyone could tell. I would and like everyone could tell. I would enter meetings and they go enter meetings and they go enter meetings and they go >> here comes community college guy. That >> here comes community college guy. That >> here comes community college guy. That would change how I was perceived. And would change how I was perceived. And would change how I was perceived. And that's how I kind of remind folks is that's how I kind of remind folks is that's how I kind of remind folks is that my uh difference is internal that my uh difference is internal that my uh difference is internal >> and others might be externalized.

>> and others might be externalized. >> and others might be externalized. >> I like that. >> I like that. >> I like that. >> Important to remember. >> Important to remember. >> Important to remember. >> I like that a lot because it comes with >> I like that a lot because it comes with >> I like that a lot because it comes with a lot more baggage. You know, there's a lot more baggage. You know, there's a lot more baggage. You know, there's this this proving of oneself over and this this proving of oneself over and this this proving of oneself over and over again. And I think that again is over again. And I think that again is over again. And I think that again is one of the things that makes the one of the things that makes the one of the things that makes the conference conference conference special for for women of all ages. special for for women of all ages. special for for women of all ages. people think it's just young women, but people think it's just young women, but people think it's just young women, but we we c we cover people from college all we we c we cover people from college all we we c we cover people from college all the way up to the boardroom. the way up to the boardroom. the way up to the boardroom. >> Um, is that I know that no one here is >> Um, is that I know that no one here is >> Um, is that I know that no one here is going to look at me and go, you don't going to look at me and go, you don't going to look at me and go, you don't belong. Why are you here? And it counts belong. Why are you here? And it counts belong. Why are you here? And it counts a lot. It it's less baggage. Uh but it's a lot. It it's less baggage. Uh but it's a lot. It it's less baggage. Uh but it's it's a it's a wonderful celebration for it's a it's a wonderful celebration for it's a it's a wonderful celebration for everyone who comes because we all learn everyone who comes because we all learn everyone who comes because we all learn that we can contribute to this thing that we can contribute to this thing that we can contribute to this thing called tech that there's uh a portion a called tech that there's uh a portion a called tech that there's uh a portion a segment of the population that we are segment of the population that we are segment of the population that we are uniquely able to to contribute to and we uniquely able to to contribute to and we uniquely able to to contribute to and we need everyone's contributions. need everyone's contributions. need everyone's contributions. >> So the GraceHopper celebration uh this >> So the GraceHopper celebration uh this >> So the GraceHopper celebration uh this year uh is November 4th through the 7th year uh is November 4th through the 7th year uh is November 4th through the 7th in Chicago.

in Chicago. in Chicago. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> And there's also an India, South Asia >> And there's also an India, South Asia >> And there's also an India, South Asia uh which is going to be probably the uh which is going to be probably the uh which is going to be probably the biggest presentation of women in that biggest presentation of women in that biggest presentation of women in that space. That's in December this year. So space. That's in December this year. So space. That's in December this year. So depending on where you are in the world, depending on where you are in the world, depending on where you are in the world, there's a Gracehopper celebration near there's a Gracehopper celebration near there's a Gracehopper celebration near you. you. you. >> That's right. There is a Gracehopper >> That's right. There is a Gracehopper >> That's right. There is a Gracehopper celebration for you. And so this uh the celebration for you. And so this uh the celebration for you. And so this uh the one in India is going to be in one in India is going to be in one in India is going to be in Bangalore. Bangalore. Bangalore. >> Um it is the largest celebration for >> Um it is the largest celebration for >> Um it is the largest celebration for women in tech in Asia. women in tech in Asia. women in tech in Asia. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Um and it is very exciting. We also have >> Um and it is very exciting. We also have >> Um and it is very exciting. We also have 50 separate communities around the world 50 separate communities around the world 50 separate communities around the world uh on just about every continent where uh on just about every continent where uh on just about every continent where uh communities get together physically uh communities get together physically uh communities get together physically or they can meet together on our or they can meet together on our or they can meet together on our membership platform uh that is membership platform uh that is membership platform uh that is international as well. And so I believe international as well. And so I believe international as well. And so I believe um collaboration is the thing that um collaboration is the thing that um collaboration is the thing that drives innovation and you get to drives innovation and you get to drives innovation and you get to collaborate when you get access to each collaborate when you get access to each collaborate when you get access to each other. And so not only these you know other. And so not only these you know other. And so not only these you know once a year events are fantastic like once a year events are fantastic like once a year events are fantastic like it's is a huge opportunity but month by it's is a huge opportunity but month by it's is a huge opportunity but month by month uh week by week our membership month uh week by week our membership month uh week by week our membership platform offers the same opportunity.

platform offers the same opportunity. platform offers the same opportunity. Many times people will meet in person Many times people will meet in person Many times people will meet in person and then they will continue to connect and then they will continue to connect and then they will continue to connect even though they're on opposite sides of even though they're on opposite sides of even though they're on opposite sides of the world um on our membership platform. the world um on our membership platform. the world um on our membership platform. >> That is so important also like just >> That is so important also like just >> That is so important also like just having a network you know. having a network you know. having a network you know. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> So we've got November 4th in Chicago. >> So we've got November 4th in Chicago. >> So we've got November 4th in Chicago. We've got December sec 2nd to the 4th in We've got December sec 2nd to the 4th in We've got December sec 2nd to the 4th in Bangalore. Bangalore. Bangalore. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> Grace helper celebration India and then >> Grace helper celebration India and then >> Grace helper celebration India and then there's online all the time community there's online all the time community there's online all the time community and and it is an opportunity for women and and it is an opportunity for women and and it is an opportunity for women to get to get to get >> together. Should I join though? Am I not >> together. Should I join though? Am I not >> together. Should I join though? Am I not supposed to be in that space? And if I supposed to be in that space? And if I supposed to be in that space? And if I do join that space, how do I interact in do join that space, how do I interact in do join that space, how do I interact in that space? that space? that space? >> Oh, absolutely. Um there are all genders >> Oh, absolutely. Um there are all genders >> Oh, absolutely. Um there are all genders on our membership platform. We do not on our membership platform. We do not on our membership platform. We do not restrict it. Um we have conversations restrict it. Um we have conversations restrict it. Um we have conversations that happen weekly on a myriad of that happen weekly on a myriad of that happen weekly on a myriad of topics. Um one of the things that I topics. Um one of the things that I topics. Um one of the things that I always share is the highest and best use always share is the highest and best use always share is the highest and best use of tech is at service of people. And so of tech is at service of people. And so of tech is at service of people. And so a lot of what we talk about on the a lot of what we talk about on the a lot of what we talk about on the platform is about people. What are the platform is about people. What are the platform is about people. What are the things that that you need to be things that that you need to be things that that you need to be successful as a human being and as a successful as a human being and as a successful as a human being and as a technologist? So we'll talk about technologist? So we'll talk about technologist? So we'll talk about financial health. We'll talk about financial health. We'll talk about financial health. We'll talk about mental health. But of course we talk mental health. But of course we talk mental health. But of course we talk about all the nerdy stuff because it's about all the nerdy stuff because it's about all the nerdy stuff because it's where all the nerds hang out. So, you where all the nerds hang out. So, you where all the nerds hang out. So, you know, if you're willing to be in a nerdy know, if you're willing to be in a nerdy know, if you're willing to be in a nerdy conversation, then, you know, come on conversation, then, you know, come on conversation, then, you know, come on over.

over. over. >> That is absolutely the kind of nerdy >> That is absolutely the kind of nerdy >> That is absolutely the kind of nerdy conversation that I like, and I conversation that I like, and I conversation that I like, and I appreciate you hanging out with me for appreciate you hanging out with me for appreciate you hanging out with me for 30 minutes, having a nerdy conversation. 30 minutes, having a nerdy conversation. 30 minutes, having a nerdy conversation. I feel like we could go another 30 very I feel like we could go another 30 very I feel like we could go another 30 very easily. easily. easily. >> We could Thank you so much, Scott. This >> We could Thank you so much, Scott. This >> We could Thank you so much, Scott. This has been so wonderful. has been so wonderful. has been so wonderful. >> Thank you. We've been chatting with >> Thank you. We've been chatting with >> Thank you. We've been chatting with Brenda Darden Wilkerson, president and Brenda Darden Wilkerson, president and Brenda Darden Wilkerson, president and CEO of Anita.org. You can check them out CEO of Anita.org. You can check them out CEO of Anita.org. You can check them out at anab.org. And the Gracehopper at anab.org. And the Gracehopper at anab.org. And the Gracehopper Celebration is ghc.anab anab.org. Celebration is ghc.anab anab.org. Celebration is ghc.anab anab.org. This has been another episode of Hansel This has been another episode of Hansel This has been another episode of Hansel Minutes and we'll see you again next Minutes and we'll see you again next Minutes and we'll see you again next week.