Push your ideas to the web with Netlify CEO Mathias Biilmann

There's something new from our sponsor, There's something new from our sponsor, Text Control. For decades, TXT Control's Text Control. For decades, TXT Control's Text Control. For decades, TXT Control's rendering was tied to Windows rendering was tied to Windows rendering was tied to Windows functionality, but now it's a new era. functionality, but now it's a new era. functionality, but now it's a new era. TXT text control is platform TXT text control is platform TXT text control is platform independent. You can run your .NET independent. You can run your .NET independent. You can run your .NET applications on Windows or Linux. Deploy applications on Windows or Linux. Deploy applications on Windows or Linux. Deploy with Docker containers, Kubernetes, or with Docker containers, Kubernetes, or with Docker containers, Kubernetes, or host directly in Azure App Services. host directly in Azure App Services. host directly in Azure App Services. Seamlessly integrate document editing, Seamlessly integrate document editing, Seamlessly integrate document editing, signing, collaboration, and PDF signing, collaboration, and PDF signing, collaboration, and PDF processing into your ASP.NET Core and processing into your ASP.NET Core and processing into your ASP.NET Core and Angular applications. Are you ready to Angular applications. Are you ready to Angular applications. Are you ready to see it in action? Check out the live see it in action? Check out the live see it in action? Check out the live demo at demos.extcontrol.com. That's demos.extcontrol.com. That's demos.extcontrol.com. [Music] Hi, I'm Scott Hansselman. This is Hi, I'm Scott Hansselman. This is another episode of Hansel Minutes. Today another episode of Hansel Minutes. Today another episode of Hansel Minutes. Today I have the pleasure of chatting with I have the pleasure of chatting with I have the pleasure of chatting with Matias Spielman. He is the CEO of Matias Spielman. He is the CEO of Matias Spielman. He is the CEO of Netlefi and the creator of Jamstack. How Netlefi and the creator of Jamstack. How Netlefi and the creator of Jamstack. How are you, sir?

are you, sir? are you, sir? >> I'm good. I'm good. It's great to be >> I'm good. I'm good. It's great to be >> I'm good. I'm good. It's great to be here. here. here. >> So, this is pretty cool. I don't get to >> So, this is pretty cool. I don't get to >> So, this is pretty cool. I don't get to talk to CEOs all the time. I don't get talk to CEOs all the time. I don't get talk to CEOs all the time. I don't get to talk to inventors and creators and to talk to inventors and creators and to talk to inventors and creators and people who are pushing the web forward, people who are pushing the web forward, people who are pushing the web forward, but the most important thing we have to but the most important thing we have to but the most important thing we have to talk about is your Commodore 64. How old talk about is your Commodore 64. How old talk about is your Commodore 64. How old were you when you got your Commodore? were you when you got your Commodore? were you when you got your Commodore? And was that your first computer? And was that your first computer? And was that your first computer? >> That was that was that was very much my >> That was that was that was very much my >> That was that was that was very much my first computer. Yeah. And I guess I was first computer. Yeah. And I guess I was first computer. Yeah. And I guess I was like 10 or 12 years old, some something like 10 or 12 years old, some something like 10 or 12 years old, some something like that. Um, it's it's it's actually a like that. Um, it's it's it's actually a like that. Um, it's it's it's actually a bit of a funny story because like I was bit of a funny story because like I was bit of a funny story because like I was in school and my handwriting was very in school and my handwriting was very in school and my handwriting was very bad and I had no interest in like bad and I had no interest in like bad and I had no interest in like handwriting and teacher didn't know how handwriting and teacher didn't know how handwriting and teacher didn't know how to sort of like get me to write more. So to sort of like get me to write more. So to sort of like get me to write more. So at some point like since I was at some point like since I was at some point like since I was expressing a lot of interest in expressing a lot of interest in expressing a lot of interest in computers, she kind of told my parents computers, she kind of told my parents computers, she kind of told my parents maybe try getting him those one of those maybe try getting him those one of those maybe try getting him those one of those like new computers and see if he starts like new computers and see if he starts like new computers and see if he starts writing on that at least and and it kind writing on that at least and and it kind writing on that at least and and it kind of worked out like I don't it didn't of worked out like I don't it didn't of worked out like I don't it didn't help on my handwriting but it but but it help on my handwriting but it but but it help on my handwriting but it but but it did became a big passion. I wonder what did became a big passion. I wonder what did became a big passion. I wonder what the thing is in 2025 that will capture the thing is in 2025 that will capture the thing is in 2025 that will capture the imagination of the young people the the imagination of the young people the the imagination of the young people the way that computers in the 80s clicked way that computers in the 80s clicked way that computers in the 80s clicked for us. Like is it making websites? Is for us. Like is it making websites? Is for us. Like is it making websites? Is it is it you know just HTML? Like cuz it is it you know just HTML? Like cuz it is it you know just HTML? Like cuz that's what the the the Gen X Gen X I that's what the the the Gen X Gen X I that's what the the the Gen X Gen X I guess they're millennials now like guess they're millennials now like guess they're millennials now like geocities like when the web was weird.

geocities like when the web was weird. geocities like when the web was weird. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That was what I think got kids excited. >> That was what I think got kids excited. >> That was what I think got kids excited. Uh is there anything like that now? Do Uh is there anything like that now? Do Uh is there anything like that now? Do you think it's AI? Do you think it's you think it's AI? Do you think it's you think it's AI? Do you think it's agents that's going to make the kids agents that's going to make the kids agents that's going to make the kids excited? excited? excited? >> It's so hard to say, right? Like I have >> It's so hard to say, right? Like I have >> It's so hard to say, right? Like I have I have a 6 months old and a daughter I have a 6 months old and a daughter I have a 6 months old and a daughter that's just over like just under two and that's just over like just under two and that's just over like just under two and a half. So obviously I'm wondering a lot a half. So obviously I'm wondering a lot a half. So obviously I'm wondering a lot like what what what are they going to like what what what are they going to like what what what are they going to like what what are they going to be like what what are they going to be like what what are they going to be fully into that I'm going to be the old fully into that I'm going to be the old fully into that I'm going to be the old grumpy like I don't get it. What is this grumpy like I don't get it. What is this grumpy like I don't get it. What is this thing? Why are they spending so much thing? Why are they spending so much thing? Why are they spending so much time on this useful on on this useless time on this useful on on this useless time on this useful on on this useless things? Why not? Why are they not things? Why not? Why are they not things? Why not? Why are they not sitting with their computer and doing sitting with their computer and doing sitting with their computer and doing like the stuff I was doing? My guess is like the stuff I was doing? My guess is like the stuff I was doing? My guess is that that that obviously a lot of these that that that obviously a lot of these that that that obviously a lot of these AI technologies that are emerging now AI technologies that are emerging now AI technologies that are emerging now are are are really interesting as are are are really interesting as are are are really interesting as creative tools, right? Like because they creative tools, right? Like because they creative tools, right? Like because they lower the barrier a lot to get started lower the barrier a lot to get started lower the barrier a lot to get started doing something in the world, right? doing something in the world, right? doing something in the world, right? Like that's what's so exciting for me to Like that's what's so exciting for me to Like that's what's so exciting for me to see with a lot of these VIP coding see with a lot of these VIP coding see with a lot of these VIP coding platforms and the coding agents and so platforms and the coding agents and so platforms and the coding agents and so on, right? like how the barrier that's on, right? like how the barrier that's on, right? like how the barrier that's been this journey into like okay you been this journey into like okay you been this journey into like okay you really like there's just this massive really like there's just this massive really like there's just this massive jump from being able to do nothing to be jump from being able to do nothing to be jump from being able to do nothing to be able to do something useful right like able to do something useful right like able to do something useful right like that really requires going through a lot that really requires going through a lot that really requires going through a lot of hoops of even understanding like of hoops of even understanding like of hoops of even understanding like files and text editors and putting them files and text editors and putting them files and text editors and putting them somewhere and like syntax and the idea somewhere and like syntax and the idea somewhere and like syntax and the idea that like one little character breaks that like one little character breaks that like one little character breaks everything if you put it wrong and so on everything if you put it wrong and so on everything if you put it wrong and so on that kind of just goes away with these

that kind of just goes away with these that kind of just goes away with these coding platforms. And I think it will be coding platforms. And I think it will be coding platforms. And I think it will be interesting to see these new generations interesting to see these new generations interesting to see these new generations that just takes that for granted in a that just takes that for granted in a that just takes that for granted in a way, right? Like where all of us we it's way, right? Like where all of us we it's way, right? Like where all of us we it's still sort of like a new weird thing, still sort of like a new weird thing, still sort of like a new weird thing, right? Like but for my kids it it will right? Like but for my kids it it will right? Like but for my kids it it will just be how the world is. And I wonder just be how the world is. And I wonder just be how the world is. And I wonder what what what that'll look like when what what what that'll look like when what what what that'll look like when when you're sort of like fully native in when you're sort of like fully native in when you're sort of like fully native in it and it's just like how you're it and it's just like how you're it and it's just like how you're expecting to interact with computers in expecting to interact with computers in expecting to interact with computers in the digital world. the digital world. the digital world. >> I'm trying to get my head around it >> I'm trying to get my head around it >> I'm trying to get my head around it though because I it's hard to think though because I it's hard to think though because I it's hard to think about these things without existing in about these things without existing in about these things without existing in the generation that you exist in. You the generation that you exist in. You the generation that you exist in. You know, I can't remove myself. I grew up know, I can't remove myself. I grew up know, I can't remove myself. I grew up in the northern hemisphere. I grew up in in the northern hemisphere. I grew up in in the northern hemisphere. I grew up in the Western Hemisphere. I grew up the Western Hemisphere. I grew up the Western Hemisphere. I grew up speaking English. So when I hear speaking English. So when I hear speaking English. So when I hear barriers, there's societal barriers, but barriers, there's societal barriers, but barriers, there's societal barriers, but like doing doing code didn't feel like a like doing doing code didn't feel like a like doing doing code didn't feel like a barrier. So then what is the barrier? Is barrier. So then what is the barrier? Is barrier. So then what is the barrier? Is it is it the attention to detail? Is it it is it the attention to detail? Is it it is it the attention to detail? Is it the compiler? Do we do we want to make the compiler? Do we do we want to make the compiler? Do we do we want to make it too easy? it too easy? it too easy? >> I I don't think so. Like I I think doing >> I I don't think so. Like I I think doing >> I I don't think so. Like I I think doing code is is more of a barrier than than code is is more of a barrier than than code is is more of a barrier than than than we realize. And obviously it's like than we realize. And obviously it's like than we realize. And obviously it's like a weird thing because some of us for a weird thing because some of us for a weird thing because some of us for some of us it becomes like a weird rock some of us it becomes like a weird rock some of us it becomes like a weird rock almost, right? Like it's like this almost, right? Like it's like this almost, right? Like it's like this mysterical feeling that you kind of get mysterical feeling that you kind of get mysterical feeling that you kind of get access to the substrate beneath the access to the substrate beneath the access to the substrate beneath the surface of computers and and you can surface of computers and and you can surface of computers and and you can suddenly operate at at a level that's suddenly operate at at a level that's suddenly operate at at a level that's like almost like magicians, right? Like like almost like magicians, right? Like like almost like magicians, right? Like you can do things on the computer that you can do things on the computer that you can do things on the computer that that that the normal user interface

that that the normal user interface that that the normal user interface don't allow you to do and so on, right? don't allow you to do and so on, right? don't allow you to do and so on, right? Like but in the grand scope of things Like but in the grand scope of things Like but in the grand scope of things like the amount of people that have like the amount of people that have like the amount of people that have fluency in in that level of code fluency in in that level of code fluency in in that level of code compared to the amount of people that compared to the amount of people that compared to the amount of people that have fluency in like using computers, have fluency in like using computers, have fluency in like using computers, writing spreadsheets, sharing documents writing spreadsheets, sharing documents writing spreadsheets, sharing documents and so on, right? Like we'll show that and so on, right? Like we'll show that and so on, right? Like we'll show that that code layer is like a very big gate that code layer is like a very big gate that code layer is like a very big gate to pass through, right? Like even if we to pass through, right? Like even if we to pass through, right? Like even if we like generous and say like if in like generous and say like if in like generous and say like if in JavaScript there's like something like JavaScript there's like something like JavaScript there's like something like 17 million professional JavaScript 17 million professional JavaScript 17 million professional JavaScript developers, right? Like maybe total developers, right? Like maybe total developers, right? Like maybe total developers like in the broad sense maybe developers like in the broad sense maybe developers like in the broad sense maybe there's like 100 million if we sort of there's like 100 million if we sort of there's like 100 million if we sort of really stretch the concept of of all really stretch the concept of of all really stretch the concept of of all kinds of things, right? Like but there's kinds of things, right? Like but there's kinds of things, right? Like but there's 7 billion people, right? 7 billion people, right? 7 billion people, right? >> So right now right now I see it a little >> So right now right now I see it a little >> So right now right now I see it a little little bit as like back before the little bit as like back before the little bit as like back before the printing press, right? like where they printing press, right? like where they printing press, right? like where they were scribes and there were like this were scribes and there were like this were scribes and there were like this group of mostly priests or monks, right? group of mostly priests or monks, right? group of mostly priests or monks, right? Like that understood how to read and Like that understood how to read and Like that understood how to read and translate the sacred texts, right? Like translate the sacred texts, right? Like translate the sacred texts, right? Like and in the grand scope of things code is and in the grand scope of things code is and in the grand scope of things code is still a bit like that, right? Like it is still a bit like that, right? Like it is still a bit like that, right? Like it is this like fairly select group that that this like fairly select group that that this like fairly select group that that can actually operate at at at that can actually operate at at at that can actually operate at at at that level. And I find it pretty fascinating level. And I find it pretty fascinating level. And I find it pretty fascinating that we're about to sort of remove that that we're about to sort of remove that that we're about to sort of remove that gate and and and invite like potentially gate and and and invite like potentially gate and and and invite like potentially billions of people in to be able to do billions of people in to be able to do billions of people in to be able to do stuff with computers that before were stuff with computers that before were stuff with computers that before were only for the select few, right? Like only for the select few, right? Like only for the select few, right? Like right now we have this balance where right now we have this balance where right now we have this balance where developers will build software that the

developers will build software that the developers will build software that the rest of people can use, right? But but I rest of people can use, right? But but I rest of people can use, right? But but I think we are entering into to to a world think we are entering into to to a world think we are entering into to to a world where it it's not that I think the where it it's not that I think the where it it's not that I think the importance of developers go away. I importance of developers go away. I importance of developers go away. I think it only gets magnified. But I think it only gets magnified. But I think it only gets magnified. But I think we go to a world where everybody think we go to a world where everybody think we go to a world where everybody can be a developer and where software can be a developer and where software can be a developer and where software development can be a part of the skill development can be a part of the skill development can be a part of the skill set of of every job and role in the same set of of every job and role in the same set of of every job and role in the same way that writing is today, right? Like way that writing is today, right? Like way that writing is today, right? Like where in a similar way before it was where in a similar way before it was where in a similar way before it was like a skill in itself, right? like you like a skill in itself, right? like you like a skill in itself, right? like you could be a scribe. Today you can't you could be a scribe. Today you can't you could be a scribe. Today you can't you probably can't get a job as a scribe, probably can't get a job as a scribe, probably can't get a job as a scribe, but you can definitely get a job as a but you can definitely get a job as a but you can definitely get a job as a writer. And there's probably a lot more writer. And there's probably a lot more writer. And there's probably a lot more writers sort of overall today than there writers sort of overall today than there writers sort of overall today than there was before the printing press and and was before the printing press and and was before the printing press and and and the sort of democratization of that. and the sort of democratization of that. and the sort of democratization of that. But also just about any role you have is But also just about any role you have is But also just about any role you have is going to require you to know how to going to require you to know how to going to require you to know how to write, right? like even if you're not write, right? like even if you're not write, right? like even if you're not have you don't have the title writer on have you don't have the title writer on have you don't have the title writer on your on your resume and I think we we're your on your resume and I think we we're your on your resume and I think we we're entering that journey where software entering that journey where software entering that journey where software development becomes sort of like goes development becomes sort of like goes development becomes sort of like goes through the same step of before it was through the same step of before it was through the same step of before it was like an exclusive things that that only like an exclusive things that that only like an exclusive things that that only people that really did that did and now people that really did that did and now people that really did that did and now it's going to become more of just like a it's going to become more of just like a it's going to become more of just like a fluid thing where fluid thing where fluid thing where >> of course you can build software >> of course you can build software >> of course you can build software >> I think human judgment is going to be >> I think human judgment is going to be >> I think human judgment is going to be more important than ever before like you more important than ever before like you more important than ever before like you being knowing what you want and being knowing what you want and being knowing what you want and intentionality because coding is at its intentionality because coding is at its intentionality because coding is at its core expressing your intent very

core expressing your intent very core expressing your intent very specifically. specifically. specifically. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And when I see people fail with AI or >> And when I see people fail with AI or >> And when I see people fail with AI or fail with vibe coding, it's when they fail with vibe coding, it's when they fail with vibe coding, it's when they give a vague oneot and they're give a vague oneot and they're give a vague oneot and they're disappointed with the result and then disappointed with the result and then disappointed with the result and then they give up and they go that sucks. they give up and they go that sucks. they give up and they go that sucks. >> Totally. Totally. Yeah. I mean the >> Totally. Totally. Yeah. I mean the >> Totally. Totally. Yeah. I mean the interesting thing for me and that's also interesting thing for me and that's also interesting thing for me and that's also back to these new generations right like back to these new generations right like back to these new generations right like is that I can see that learning to build is that I can see that learning to build is that I can see that learning to build software through AI is a skill set right software through AI is a skill set right software through AI is a skill set right like people treat it as if it's not as like people treat it as if it's not as like people treat it as if it's not as if the AI is now like going to do the if the AI is now like going to do the if the AI is now like going to do the job for them and they're like build me job for them and they're like build me job for them and they're like build me this app that does this thing and then this app that does this thing and then this app that does this thing and then it fails right like then that it fails right like then that it fails right like then that >> it's not going to work and and it's not >> it's not going to work and and it's not >> it's not going to work and and it's not like it it's just not how it works right like it it's just not how it works right like it it's just not how it works right like But you see some people like a fun like But you see some people like a fun like But you see some people like a fun example is like we we have a launch example is like we we have a launch example is like we we have a launch event tomorrow netify deploy event tomorrow netify deploy event tomorrow netify deploy and one of our challenges in in doing and one of our challenges in in doing and one of our challenges in in doing the launch event was that all of our the launch event was that all of our the launch event was that all of our front end developers and designers and front end developers and designers and front end developers and designers and everything were so busy building the everything were so busy building the everything were so busy building the stuff that we're launching tomorrow that stuff that we're launching tomorrow that stuff that we're launching tomorrow that we didn't really have like any spare we didn't really have like any spare we didn't really have like any spare resources to do an event page. So, I resources to do an event page. So, I resources to do an event page. So, I reached out to this uh to this guy Jacob reached out to this uh to this guy Jacob reached out to this uh to this guy Jacob from the Vibe Coding community who's from the Vibe Coding community who's from the Vibe Coding community who's like an ex like he's like a customer like an ex like he's like a customer like an ex like he's like a customer success manager and uh but but he's just success manager and uh but but he's just success manager and uh but but he's just really really really learned how to use bolt new to do very learned how to use bolt new to do very learned how to use bolt new to do very cool things with it, right? like he's cool things with it, right? like he's cool things with it, right? like he's really spent the time of learning how to really spent the time of learning how to really spent the time of learning how to prompt it, of looking up different

prompt it, of looking up different prompt it, of looking up different examples of website and getting it to examples of website and getting it to examples of website and getting it to say like, hey, take the animation from say like, hey, take the animation from say like, hey, take the animation from this site and do a new thing with it and this site and do a new thing with it and this site and do a new thing with it and so on. And we asked him to build the so on. And we asked him to build the so on. And we asked him to build the website and netifi.com/deploy website and netifi.com/deploy website and netifi.com/deploy >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> is now like a full like purely vibe >> is now like a full like purely vibe >> is now like a full like purely vibe coded by by by one person and I'm very coded by by by one person and I'm very coded by by by one person and I'm very happy with the result and it's been very happy with the result and it's been very happy with the result and it's been very effective, right? like we we've it's effective, right? like we we've it's effective, right? like we we've it's actually been like the most effective actually been like the most effective actually been like the most effective event page we've had the last four years event page we've had the last four years event page we've had the last four years or so. But the point here is that I or so. But the point here is that I or so. But the point here is that I actually wouldn't be able to go in and actually wouldn't be able to go in and actually wouldn't be able to go in and prompt bolt to build that site, prompt bolt to build that site, prompt bolt to build that site, >> right? It didn't happen it didn't happen >> right? It didn't happen it didn't happen >> right? It didn't happen it didn't happen as a as chance like AI is a kind of as a as chance like AI is a kind of as a as chance like AI is a kind of spicy autocomplete. It is next token spicy autocomplete. It is next token spicy autocomplete. It is next token prediction. You are rolling the dice. prediction. You are rolling the dice. prediction. You are rolling the dice. But you're saying this isn't just a vibe But you're saying this isn't just a vibe But you're saying this isn't just a vibe coder. This was an expert vibe coder who coder. This was an expert vibe coder who coder. This was an expert vibe coder who intentionally intentionally intentionally >> expressed what he wanted. >> expressed what he wanted. >> expressed what he wanted. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> With Bolt and then pushed it to Netify. >> With Bolt and then pushed it to Netify. >> With Bolt and then pushed it to Netify. >> Exactly. Right. Like he's built a whole >> Exactly. Right. Like he's built a whole >> Exactly. Right. Like he's built a whole new skill set. Right. And I think that's new skill set. Right. And I think that's new skill set. Right. And I think that's sort of my view of all of these things sort of my view of all of these things sort of my view of all of these things that on their own they're not going to that on their own they're not going to that on their own they're not going to do the work or anything, but one they do the work or anything, but one they do the work or anything, but one they they they do really bring on a whole new they they do really bring on a whole new they they do really bring on a whole new group of people to the world of building group of people to the world of building group of people to the world of building on the web and building software that on the web and building software that on the web and building software that were pure consumers before and that's were pure consumers before and that's were pure consumers before and that's really cool.

really cool. really cool. >> And two, I think they will build a new >> And two, I think they will build a new >> And two, I think they will build a new kind of skill set, right? like what it kind of skill set, right? like what it kind of skill set, right? like what it means to develop software will shift but means to develop software will shift but means to develop software will shift but it'll definitely still be a skill set it'll definitely still be a skill set it'll definitely still be a skill set right like and I think it will shift right like and I think it will shift right like and I think it will shift from things that are more tied to like from things that are more tied to like from things that are more tied to like the sort of the more binary nature of the sort of the more binary nature of the sort of the more binary nature of computers right like of understanding computers right like of understanding computers right like of understanding programming languages and syntax and programming languages and syntax and programming languages and syntax and like algorithm design and all of those like algorithm design and all of those like algorithm design and all of those pieces pieces pieces >> to what actually more humanistic >> to what actually more humanistic >> to what actually more humanistic elements of the software design elements of the software design elements of the software design understanding what other people understanding what other people understanding what other people our software right like clarity of our software right like clarity of our software right like clarity of thought clarity in writing systems thought clarity in writing systems thought clarity in writing systems thinking design thinking I think those thinking design thinking I think those thinking design thinking I think those element will become more important for element will become more important for element will become more important for software development and and and the software development and and and the software development and and and the sort of traditional very like code sort of traditional very like code sort of traditional very like code oriented parts of it will become less oriented parts of it will become less oriented parts of it will become less important over time important over time important over time >> I I I I find it hard to imagine like a >> I I I I find it hard to imagine like a >> I I I I find it hard to imagine like a world where I'm vibe coding a device world where I'm vibe coding a device world where I'm vibe coding a device driver or vibe coding something in the driver or vibe coding something in the driver or vibe coding something in the like I don't think that Linux is going like I don't think that Linux is going like I don't think that Linux is going to allow us to vibe anything into the to allow us to vibe anything into the to allow us to vibe anything into the kernel anytime soon, but uh I could kernel anytime soon, but uh I could kernel anytime soon, but uh I could definitely see it happening at a higher definitely see it happening at a higher definitely see it happening at a higher level. So, it makes me wonder if vibe level. So, it makes me wonder if vibe level. So, it makes me wonder if vibe coding or AI is really a a 4GL. They coding or AI is really a a 4GL. They coding or AI is really a a 4GL. They always promised us this fourth level, always promised us this fourth level, always promised us this fourth level, this fourth generation language. Cuz this fourth generation language. Cuz this fourth generation language. Cuz when I started in the 80s, it was C when I started in the 80s, it was C when I started in the 80s, it was C visual basic and I had to decide, are visual basic and I had to decide, are visual basic and I had to decide, are you going to be a visual basic you going to be a visual basic you going to be a visual basic programmer? They do business apps. Are programmer? They do business apps. Are programmer? They do business apps. Are you going to be a C programmer? they do

you going to be a C programmer? they do you going to be a C programmer? they do low-level system stuff and that was like low-level system stuff and that was like low-level system stuff and that was like the boundary and now it feels like it's the boundary and now it feels like it's the boundary and now it feels like it's JavaScript and highle languages that run JavaScript and highle languages that run JavaScript and highle languages that run in the browser or it's system languages in the browser or it's system languages in the browser or it's system languages that run somewhere else but with the that run somewhere else but with the that run somewhere else but with the Jamstack you and Netlfi Jamstack you and Netlfi Jamstack you and Netlfi and this is a compliment you don't have and this is a compliment you don't have and this is a compliment you don't have a deep stack and by deep I mean there's a deep stack and by deep I mean there's a deep stack and by deep I mean there's not a lot of hidden not a lot of hidden not a lot of hidden >> if somebody says I just want to make a >> if somebody says I just want to make a >> if somebody says I just want to make a web page man web page man web page man >> then you just make an index.html HTML, >> then you just make an index.html HTML, >> then you just make an index.html HTML, you put some JavaScript on it, you call you put some JavaScript on it, you call you put some JavaScript on it, you call an API, like the stack is not deep, an API, like the stack is not deep, an API, like the stack is not deep, which I'm guessing, and and this is a which I'm guessing, and and this is a which I'm guessing, and and this is a guess, that would make AI likely to be guess, that would make AI likely to be guess, that would make AI likely to be more successful because there's less more successful because there's less more successful because there's less complexity. Is that a reasonable complexity. Is that a reasonable complexity. Is that a reasonable assumption? assumption? assumption? >> Yeah, totally. I I think that this >> Yeah, totally. I I think that this >> Yeah, totally. I I think that this decoupled stack of like trying to keep decoupled stack of like trying to keep decoupled stack of like trying to keep the front end UI part fairly isolated the front end UI part fairly isolated the front end UI part fairly isolated from all the different backends and then from all the different backends and then from all the different backends and then building individual APIs for those building individual APIs for those building individual APIs for those backend actually lends itself really backend actually lends itself really backend actually lends itself really really well to the strengths of AI and really well to the strengths of AI and really well to the strengths of AI and makes it really easy to start iterating makes it really easy to start iterating makes it really easy to start iterating with with AI on on on your code base with with AI on on on your code base with with AI on on on your code base whereas like larger monoliths can just whereas like larger monoliths can just whereas like larger monoliths can just sucks up way more context. There's way sucks up way more context. There's way sucks up way more context. There's way more things that can go wrong. it's more things that can go wrong. it's more things that can go wrong. it's harder to like do things like isolated harder to like do things like isolated harder to like do things like isolated deployments, right? Like I think a lot deployments, right? Like I think a lot deployments, right? Like I think a lot of of a lot of the success of what we of of a lot of the success of what we of of a lot of the success of what we built was also these idea of like deploy built was also these idea of like deploy built was also these idea of like deploy previews and like immutable atomic previews and like immutable atomic previews and like immutable atomic deployments that you can easily roll deployments that you can easily roll deployments that you can easily roll back and so on, right? Like and all of back and so on, right? Like and all of back and so on, right? Like and all of those characteristics also lends themsel those characteristics also lends themsel those characteristics also lends themsel extremely well to a flow where you're

extremely well to a flow where you're extremely well to a flow where you're sort of like iterating with agents, sort of like iterating with agents, sort of like iterating with agents, seeing what they do, taking another seeing what they do, taking another seeing what they do, taking another step, right? like I think that that step, right? like I think that that step, right? like I think that that becomes really essential. Um and then I becomes really essential. Um and then I becomes really essential. Um and then I think I I actually think that like code think I I actually think that like code think I I actually think that like code written by agents will start showing up written by agents will start showing up written by agents will start showing up in in in all layers of of the stack also in in in all layers of of the stack also in in in all layers of of the stack also on the on the systems areas and so on. on the on the systems areas and so on. on the on the systems areas and so on. But the deeper down you go, the more it But the deeper down you go, the more it But the deeper down you go, the more it will be fully guided by expert will be fully guided by expert will be fully guided by expert developers that understand the output of developers that understand the output of developers that understand the output of the agent and can like verify that and the agent and can like verify that and the agent and can like verify that and and reason about it and where it becomes and reason about it and where it becomes and reason about it and where it becomes more of like a multiplier for their more of like a multiplier for their more of like a multiplier for their ability to produce code and make output ability to produce code and make output ability to produce code and make output and then the higher up the stack towards and then the higher up the stack towards and then the higher up the stack towards the UI you go, the more code will sort the UI you go, the more code will sort the UI you go, the more code will sort of disappear as an artifact we care of disappear as an artifact we care of disappear as an artifact we care about directly. about directly. about directly. and we'll care about like the specs, the and we'll care about like the specs, the and we'll care about like the specs, the prompting, the descriptions, the actual prompting, the descriptions, the actual prompting, the descriptions, the actual artifact of what the agent build and how artifact of what the agent build and how artifact of what the agent build and how it works and how like people interact it works and how like people interact it works and how like people interact with it. Yeah, there's a ton of really with it. Yeah, there's a ton of really with it. Yeah, there's a ton of really interesting work happening with an an interesting work happening with an an interesting work happening with an an intermediate step between prompting with intermediate step between prompting with intermediate step between prompting with things like spec kit specify uh where things like spec kit specify uh where things like spec kit specify uh where you you you >> say what you want in pros, you get a >> say what you want in pros, you get a >> say what you want in pros, you get a more specific pros which is effectively more specific pros which is effectively more specific pros which is effectively a word document you can compile and then a word document you can compile and then a word document you can compile and then the specification it becomes the new the specification it becomes the new the specification it becomes the new artifact. Now, tomorrow, which will be artifact. Now, tomorrow, which will be artifact. Now, tomorrow, which will be actually in the past by the time folks

actually in the past by the time folks actually in the past by the time folks are listening to this podcast, uh are listening to this podcast, uh are listening to this podcast, uh Netlefi deploy will happen on October Netlefi deploy will happen on October Netlefi deploy will happen on October 1st. Folks can see that at 1st. Folks can see that at 1st. Folks can see that at netlefi.com/deploy. netlefi.com/deploy. netlefi.com/deploy. Since that's tomorrow, why don't we Since that's tomorrow, why don't we Since that's tomorrow, why don't we pretend we're in the future cuz we are. pretend we're in the future cuz we are. pretend we're in the future cuz we are. And you can read us in to what is And you can read us in to what is And you can read us in to what is announced at netifi deploy because you announced at netifi deploy because you announced at netifi deploy because you have an allnew developer workflow. have an allnew developer workflow. have an allnew developer workflow. >> Yeah, we have. We have, right? Like and >> Yeah, we have. We have, right? Like and >> Yeah, we have. We have, right? Like and it's interesting when when when I it's interesting when when when I it's interesting when when when I started when I started Netlifi there was started when I started Netlifi there was started when I started Netlifi there was like two big similarities to now in a like two big similarities to now in a like two big similarities to now in a way that like there was a whole new way that like there was a whole new way that like there was a whole new group of developers emerging like at the group of developers emerging like at the group of developers emerging like at the time when I first started working on time when I first started working on time when I first started working on Netifi in like 2013 or so right like the Netifi in like 2013 or so right like the Netifi in like 2013 or so right like the front-end developer was seen as like a front-end developer was seen as like a front-end developer was seen as like a pseudo developer right like that would pseudo developer right like that would pseudo developer right like that would take a Photoshop file slice it and then take a Photoshop file slice it and then take a Photoshop file slice it and then hand it to a real developer that would hand it to a real developer that would hand it to a real developer that would build it and implement it right and one build it and implement it right and one build it and implement it right and one of our big thesis at the time was if we of our big thesis at the time was if we of our big thesis at the time was if we give them the right tooling and we sort give them the right tooling and we sort give them the right tooling and we sort of like decoupble the front end from the of like decoupble the front end from the of like decoupble the front end from the back end they will become the mainstream back end they will become the mainstream back end they will become the mainstream web developers and they will just build web developers and they will just build web developers and they will just build the UIs and the front ends we interact the UIs and the front ends we interact the UIs and the front ends we interact with and ship them on your own. The with and ship them on your own. The with and ship them on your own. The other thing that's sort of similar was other thing that's sort of similar was other thing that's sort of similar was that there was like this new workflow that there was like this new workflow that there was like this new workflow layer emerging and at the time there was layer emerging and at the time there was layer emerging and at the time there was like GitHub c like the whole git like GitHub c like the whole git like GitHub c like the whole git ccentric workflow around branches pull ccentric workflow around branches pull ccentric workflow around branches pull requests and so on right like and we requests and so on right like and we requests and so on right like and we sort of tied those two things together sort of tied those two things together sort of tied those two things together and say like we want to make these and say like we want to make these and say like we want to make these front-end developers real developers and front-end developers real developers and front-end developers real developers and we want them to work entirely like we we want them to work entirely like we we want them to work entirely like we want to fully integrate with that want to fully integrate with that want to fully integrate with that workflow of git and pull requests and

workflow of git and pull requests and workflow of git and pull requests and the way you iterate on code there. And the way you iterate on code there. And the way you iterate on code there. And now we're sort of in a similar path now we're sort of in a similar path now we're sort of in a similar path where there's this vibe coder emerging, where there's this vibe coder emerging, where there's this vibe coder emerging, right? Like and there's still this right? Like and there's still this right? Like and there's still this sense, oh, they're definitely not real sense, oh, they're definitely not real sense, oh, they're definitely not real developers and they'll need real developers and they'll need real developers and they'll need real developers to to to to work all the way. developers to to to to work all the way. developers to to to to work all the way. And there's also a new workflow layer And there's also a new workflow layer And there's also a new workflow layer emerging around asynchronous agents that emerging around asynchronous agents that emerging around asynchronous agents that kind of like go off and do tasks and kind of like go off and do tasks and kind of like go off and do tasks and report back to you later. report back to you later. report back to you later. So what we launching tomorrow is is two So what we launching tomorrow is is two So what we launching tomorrow is is two pieces. The first workflow ccentric one pieces. The first workflow ccentric one pieces. The first workflow ccentric one is really uh what we call agent runners. is really uh what we call agent runners. is really uh what we call agent runners. The idea here is uh to orchestrate the The idea here is uh to orchestrate the The idea here is uh to orchestrate the agents from the foundational model agents from the foundational model agents from the foundational model companies. So that's like cloud code, companies. So that's like cloud code, companies. So that's like cloud code, Gemini CLI and Codex CLI from from Gemini CLI and Codex CLI from from Gemini CLI and Codex CLI from from OpenAI right now. That all sort of OpenAI right now. That all sort of OpenAI right now. That all sort of followed in the wake of cloud code, followed in the wake of cloud code, followed in the wake of cloud code, right? Like and I think when Anthropic right? Like and I think when Anthropic right? Like and I think when Anthropic launched Cloud Code, it was sort of a launched Cloud Code, it was sort of a launched Cloud Code, it was sort of a big shift from like the coding agents big shift from like the coding agents big shift from like the coding agents that were sitting next to the code and that were sitting next to the code and that were sitting next to the code and sort of starting with tap completing and sort of starting with tap completing and sort of starting with tap completing and then being in the IDE to a coding agent then being in the IDE to a coding agent then being in the IDE to a coding agent that sat in the CLI that sat in the CLI that sat in the CLI and was just purely you just interact and was just purely you just interact and was just purely you just interact with it through prompts, but it can do with it through prompts, but it can do with it through prompts, but it can do anything you can do on a computer anything you can do on a computer anything you can do on a computer because it sits on the CLI, right? Like because it sits on the CLI, right? Like because it sits on the CLI, right? Like it can call any command. It can write it can call any command. It can write it can call any command. It can write code and build new commands itself and code and build new commands itself and code and build new commands itself and string them together and do anything, string them together and do anything, string them together and do anything, right? And I think that quickly became right? And I think that quickly became right? And I think that quickly became clear to Anthropic that what they had clear to Anthropic that what they had clear to Anthropic that what they had there was sort of like the archetype of

there was sort of like the archetype of there was sort of like the archetype of like a real autonomous agent in the like a real autonomous agent in the like a real autonomous agent in the digital world that can like operate for digital world that can like operate for digital world that can like operate for longer stretches on its own. And when longer stretches on its own. And when longer stretches on its own. And when OpenAI and and and Google saw that, they OpenAI and and and Google saw that, they OpenAI and and and Google saw that, they swooped in and built their own versions. swooped in and built their own versions. swooped in and built their own versions. Um, and we have more of those CLI based Um, and we have more of those CLI based Um, and we have more of those CLI based agent coming out. So for Netlifi, agent coming out. So for Netlifi, agent coming out. So for Netlifi, we're not going to like build our own we're not going to like build our own we're not going to like build our own agent and and and compete with that. But agent and and and compete with that. But agent and and and compete with that. But we saw that it became incredibly we saw that it became incredibly we saw that it became incredibly powerful to be able to like spin up powerful to be able to like spin up powerful to be able to like spin up agent runs in the cloud in a sandbox agent runs in the cloud in a sandbox agent runs in the cloud in a sandbox with those types of agents, right? Like with those types of agents, right? Like with those types of agents, right? Like so you can now go into Netlify and so you can now go into Netlify and so you can now go into Netlify and directly from your overview you will directly from your overview you will directly from your overview you will have like a prompt box with a selection have like a prompt box with a selection have like a prompt box with a selection of which agent you want to run and then of which agent you want to run and then of which agent you want to run and then you can tell it to go do stuff against you can tell it to go do stuff against you can tell it to go do stuff against your web project. Small demo I've given your web project. Small demo I've given your web project. Small demo I've given a couple of times. It's like on on my a couple of times. It's like on on my a couple of times. It's like on on my own blog which is like an Astro based own blog which is like an Astro based own blog which is like an Astro based blog. I went in and I asked cloud code blog. I went in and I asked cloud code blog. I went in and I asked cloud code go and add social media sharing buttons go and add social media sharing buttons go and add social media sharing buttons to the blog posts. I want like Twitter to the blog posts. I want like Twitter to the blog posts. I want like Twitter and Blue Sky and LinkedIn and Hackne and and Blue Sky and LinkedIn and Hackne and and Blue Sky and LinkedIn and Hackne and kicks off a run. It runs in a sandbox kicks off a run. It runs in a sandbox kicks off a run. It runs in a sandbox fully autonomously and like yolo mode, fully autonomously and like yolo mode, fully autonomously and like yolo mode, right? Like it can just go do all the right? Like it can just go do all the right? Like it can just go do all the work it wants. Um because we know this work it wants. Um because we know this work it wants. Um because we know this is a web project and we know how to is a web project and we know how to is a web project and we know how to build it and deploy it. We can spin up build it and deploy it. We can spin up build it and deploy it. We can spin up like the dev server for the project like the dev server for the project like the dev server for the project meanwhile and give Claude access to the meanwhile and give Claude access to the meanwhile and give Claude access to the logs so it can see if it breaks things

logs so it can see if it breaks things logs so it can see if it breaks things or not. we can have it validate at the or not. we can have it validate at the or not. we can have it validate at the end of the run that the build still end of the run that the build still end of the run that the build still works and so works and so works and so >> so are you making all of Netlefi a tool >> so are you making all of Netlefi a tool >> so are you making all of Netlefi a tool or an MCP server? or an MCP server? or an MCP server? >> No, we're kind of like spinning up a >> No, we're kind of like spinning up a >> No, we're kind of like spinning up a firecracker based VM and putting all the firecracker based VM and putting all the firecracker based VM and putting all the right context in place and spinning up right context in place and spinning up right context in place and spinning up the dev server but like we kind of the dev server but like we kind of the dev server but like we kind of orchestrating the agent run. It actually orchestrating the agent run. It actually orchestrating the agent run. It actually doesn't have access right now by default doesn't have access right now by default doesn't have access right now by default to our MCP server. We just um put the to our MCP server. We just um put the to our MCP server. We just um put the right context in place in the prompt so right context in place in the prompt so right context in place in the prompt so it knows what kind of project it's it knows what kind of project it's it knows what kind of project it's working. We kind of do the context working. We kind of do the context working. We kind of do the context engineering for you to make it more engineering for you to make it more engineering for you to make it more successful. And then the result of every successful. And then the result of every successful. And then the result of every run is a a deploy preview. Just like in run is a a deploy preview. Just like in run is a a deploy preview. Just like in the gitcentric world, the result of any the gitcentric world, the result of any the gitcentric world, the result of any pull request is a deploy preview, right? pull request is a deploy preview, right? pull request is a deploy preview, right? Like in this world, the result of any Like in this world, the result of any Like in this world, the result of any agent run is a deploy preview. Because agent run is a deploy preview. Because agent run is a deploy preview. Because like the thesis that what you really like the thesis that what you really like the thesis that what you really care about is mainly like what did it care about is mainly like what did it care about is mainly like what did it build and does it work, right? Like and build and does it work, right? Like and build and does it work, right? Like and of course you can go also and look at of course you can go also and look at of course you can go also and look at the diff and see what code it wrote and the diff and see what code it wrote and the diff and see what code it wrote and so on, right? Like but you immediately so on, right? Like but you immediately so on, right? Like but you immediately get that that unique URL where you can get that that unique URL where you can get that that unique URL where you can go see what did the agent build and then go see what did the agent build and then go see what did the agent build and then you can do follow-up runs, right? Like you can do follow-up runs, right? Like you can do follow-up runs, right? Like you can do threads and keep iterating on you can do threads and keep iterating on you can do threads and keep iterating on it and then if you're if if your project it and then if you're if if your project it and then if you're if if your project is linked to GitHub, you can then open a is linked to GitHub, you can then open a is linked to GitHub, you can then open a pull request from Netlifi, right? like pull request from Netlifi, right? like pull request from Netlifi, right? like once like because I think the other flow once like because I think the other flow once like because I think the other flow is often a little weird, right? Like the is often a little weird, right? Like the is often a little weird, right? Like the other flow where you spin up an agent other flow where you spin up an agent other flow where you spin up an agent and then the result is a pull request in

and then the result is a pull request in and then the result is a pull request in GitHub. It's kind of weird because you GitHub. It's kind of weird because you GitHub. It's kind of weird because you don't even like it's it's not don't even like it's it's not don't even like it's it's not deterministic, right? Like so you don't deterministic, right? Like so you don't deterministic, right? Like so you don't really know did it actually do something really know did it actually do something really know did it actually do something that's like worthwhile of a pull that's like worthwhile of a pull that's like worthwhile of a pull request, right? Like it might have done request, right? Like it might have done request, right? Like it might have done a completely weird thing and now now you a completely weird thing and now now you a completely weird thing and now now you have sort of like a pull request that's have sort of like a pull request that's have sort of like a pull request that's like that that you don't like, right? like that that you don't like, right? like that that you don't like, right? Like so in this world you you iterate Like so in this world you you iterate Like so in this world you you iterate with the agent with deployments as the with the agent with deployments as the with the agent with deployments as the artifact and once you're happy you can artifact and once you're happy you can artifact and once you're happy you can open a pull request and that turns into open a pull request and that turns into open a pull request and that turns into our normal deploy preview process and our normal deploy preview process and our normal deploy preview process and you can then keep pushing back to the you can then keep pushing back to the you can then keep pushing back to the pull request if you want and then take pull request if you want and then take pull request if you want and then take it take it live. So it's sort of really it take it live. So it's sort of really it take it live. So it's sort of really integrated into this overall workflow integrated into this overall workflow integrated into this overall workflow um with sandboxing, unique deployments um with sandboxing, unique deployments um with sandboxing, unique deployments um and um even tied into other places of um and um even tied into other places of um and um even tied into other places of our workflow, right? Like so one of the our workflow, right? Like so one of the our workflow, right? Like so one of the things we we launched a while ago is is things we we launched a while ago is is things we we launched a while ago is is is a little button called why did it is a little button called why did it is a little button called why did it fail where when you open a pull request fail where when you open a pull request fail where when you open a pull request in GitHub and the build runs on Nitlifi in GitHub and the build runs on Nitlifi in GitHub and the build runs on Nitlifi but it fails for some reason. That was but it fails for some reason. That was but it fails for some reason. That was like sort of a typical passive friction, like sort of a typical passive friction, like sort of a typical passive friction, right? Like now you typically have to go right? Like now you typically have to go right? Like now you typically have to go like debug locally, look at the lines, like debug locally, look at the lines, like debug locally, look at the lines, like figure out what is wrong. We now like figure out what is wrong. We now like figure out what is wrong. We now have this little button that you hit. It have this little button that you hit. It have this little button that you hit. It takes like the error messages and the takes like the error messages and the takes like the error messages and the code context, send it to an LLM and give code context, send it to an LLM and give code context, send it to an LLM and give you like a diagnosis of like why did it you like a diagnosis of like why did it you like a diagnosis of like why did it fail? But now it also has a button fail? But now it also has a button fail? But now it also has a button saying fix it with an agent that just saying fix it with an agent that just saying fix it with an agent that just take that diagnostic and everything and take that diagnostic and everything and take that diagnostic and everything and kicks off an agent run that goes to work

kicks off an agent run that goes to work kicks off an agent run that goes to work implements the fix and give you an implements the fix and give you an implements the fix and give you an option of saying okay this actually option of saying okay this actually option of saying okay this actually worked. push it back to the pull request worked. push it back to the pull request worked. push it back to the pull request and and and get moving. And and the more and and and get moving. And and the more and and and get moving. And and the more you start like having this available, you start like having this available, you start like having this available, the more it becomes like just a really the more it becomes like just a really the more it becomes like just a really powerful workflow, but also a really powerful workflow, but also a really powerful workflow, but also a really inclusive workflow, right? Like one of inclusive workflow, right? Like one of inclusive workflow, right? Like one of the things that we've seen is that in the things that we've seen is that in the things that we've seen is that in our production code bases, our production code bases, our production code bases, people that were stakeholders before is people that were stakeholders before is people that were stakeholders before is starting to be collaborators now, right? starting to be collaborators now, right? starting to be collaborators now, right? like like like >> product managers, product designers, >> product managers, product designers, >> product managers, product designers, support engineers, all kind of people support engineers, all kind of people support engineers, all kind of people are now being able to just like jump are now being able to just like jump are now being able to just like jump into the same way and and open an agent into the same way and and open an agent into the same way and and open an agent run um to to to to actually like see if run um to to to to actually like see if run um to to to to actually like see if it works. And if it if it does well then it works. And if it if it does well then it works. And if it if it does well then they could just self-s serve on an whole they could just self-s serve on an whole they could just self-s serve on an whole issue, push it to GitHub and and have issue, push it to GitHub and and have issue, push it to GitHub and and have the dev team take over and and and the dev team take over and and and the dev team take over and and and integrate, right? like and um and I integrate, right? like and um and I integrate, right? like and um and I think that's kind of part of our vision think that's kind of part of our vision think that's kind of part of our vision for this, right? Like to see how can we for this, right? Like to see how can we for this, right? Like to see how can we bring more of the extended team into bring more of the extended team into bring more of the extended team into this this this development workflow? How can we help development workflow? How can we help development workflow? How can we help them prototype directly within the them prototype directly within the them prototype directly within the actual like code bases of the app? How actual like code bases of the app? How actual like code bases of the app? How can we help them go directly and and and can we help them go directly and and and can we help them go directly and and and work on things that that that they could work on things that that that they could work on things that that that they could potentially just ship all on their own?

potentially just ship all on their own? potentially just ship all on their own? And internally in Netify, we're really And internally in Netify, we're really And internally in Netify, we're really seeing that now, right? Like we're seeing that now, right? Like we're seeing that now, right? Like we're really seeing PMs taking things to really seeing PMs taking things to really seeing PMs taking things to production, CEOs taking things. production, CEOs taking things. production, CEOs taking things. >> No, I think that's great. I I that's >> No, I think that's great. I I that's >> No, I think that's great. I I that's actually a more compelling argument than actually a more compelling argument than actually a more compelling argument than I've heard in a long time because I I've heard in a long time because I I've heard in a long time because I think all of those conversations around think all of those conversations around think all of those conversations around vibe coding have been developers vibe coding have been developers vibe coding have been developers concerned about their jobs, developers concerned about their jobs, developers concerned about their jobs, developers concerned about what the developer concerned about what the developer concerned about what the developer experience going to be like. But you're experience going to be like. But you're experience going to be like. But you're talking about collective ownership, talking about collective ownership, talking about collective ownership, >> the full stack being as simple as >> the full stack being as simple as >> the full stack being as simple as possible, but you're also making the for possible, but you're also making the for possible, but you're also making the for this is an analogy, but you're making this is an analogy, but you're making this is an analogy, but you're making the Lego pieces just the right size. the Lego pieces just the right size. the Lego pieces just the right size. >> You know, like firecracker is lighter >> You know, like firecracker is lighter >> You know, like firecracker is lighter weight than docker. It spins up inst, weight than docker. It spins up inst, weight than docker. It spins up inst, you know, in 100 milliseconds. It gets you know, in 100 milliseconds. It gets you know, in 100 milliseconds. It gets the thing done. the thing done. the thing done. >> You are get in, get out. So you're >> You are get in, get out. So you're >> You are get in, get out. So you're making that um that inner loop, that making that um that inner loop, that making that um that inner loop, that developer loop as tight and as small as developer loop as tight and as small as developer loop as tight and as small as possible and then everyone participates. possible and then everyone participates. possible and then everyone participates. >> Totally. That's that's really the goal, >> Totally. That's that's really the goal, >> Totally. That's that's really the goal, right? like and um and and the same with right? like and um and and the same with right? like and um and and the same with this idea of the deployment, right? Like this idea of the deployment, right? Like this idea of the deployment, right? Like you run an agent run, you immediately you run an agent run, you immediately you run an agent run, you immediately have like a deployment URL you can share have like a deployment URL you can share have like a deployment URL you can share with others and say, "Hey, does does with others and say, "Hey, does does with others and say, "Hey, does does this look right?"

this look right?" this look right?" Hey friends, this is Scott. I'm going to Hey friends, this is Scott. I'm going to Hey friends, this is Scott. I'm going to take a moment in the middle here and take a moment in the middle here and take a moment in the middle here and introduce you one of our new sponsors, introduce you one of our new sponsors, introduce you one of our new sponsors, Postman Flows. They let you orchestrate Postman Flows. They let you orchestrate Postman Flows. They let you orchestrate APIs, logic, and data visually. I've APIs, logic, and data visually. I've APIs, logic, and data visually. I've been chatting with Rodrik. Rodrik, what been chatting with Rodrik. Rodrik, what been chatting with Rodrik. Rodrik, what has been the aha moment for you when you has been the aha moment for you when you has been the aha moment for you when you were building agents with Postman Flows? were building agents with Postman Flows? were building agents with Postman Flows? The first thing that I've noticed is The first thing that I've noticed is The first thing that I've noticed is that when you connect an API to an AI, that when you connect an API to an AI, that when you connect an API to an AI, then it really transforms what you can then it really transforms what you can then it really transforms what you can do and the capabilities that the large do and the capabilities that the large do and the capabilities that the large language model can do for you. Um so the language model can do for you. Um so the language model can do for you. Um so the aha moment for me was that very first aha moment for me was that very first aha moment for me was that very first connection and unlocking the ability of connection and unlocking the ability of connection and unlocking the ability of taking a AI which was essentially taking a AI which was essentially taking a AI which was essentially transactional with respect to text in transactional with respect to text in transactional with respect to text in text out and changing it into something text out and changing it into something text out and changing it into something that was outcome driven text in actions that was outcome driven text in actions that was outcome driven text in actions out and the way to do that was through out and the way to do that was through out and the way to do that was through APIs and using all of the Postman APIs APIs and using all of the Postman APIs APIs and using all of the Postman APIs that are on the network today over that are on the network today over that are on the network today over 100,000 plus was really the thing that I 100,000 plus was really the thing that I 100,000 plus was really the thing that I wanted to sort of just drive more and wanted to sort of just drive more and wanted to sort of just drive more and more of more of more of >> text and actions out actions uh >> text and actions out actions uh >> text and actions out actions uh Text in, actions out. I love it. Postman Text in, actions out. I love it. Postman Text in, actions out. I love it. Postman flows. It's a powerful tool for creating flows. It's a powerful tool for creating flows. It's a powerful tool for creating and running AI agents and API and running AI agents and API and running AI agents and API automations. You can check them out at automations. You can check them out at automations. You can check them out at postman.com/hancel postman.com/hancel postman.com/hancel minutes.

I've always loved that part of continue I've always loved that part of continue like like there's so many companies in like like there's so many companies in like like there's so many companies in 2025 that barely have a working build 2025 that barely have a working build 2025 that barely have a working build server. So like if you're listening and server. So like if you're listening and server. So like if you're listening and you don't have a build server, like get you don't have a build server, like get you don't have a build server, like get it together. But the power of being able it together. But the power of being able it together. But the power of being able to go into a pull request and then click to go into a pull request and then click to go into a pull request and then click on a link and see a container with a on a link and see a container with a on a link and see a container with a running tiny version running tiny version running tiny version >> of that pull request and then a product >> of that pull request and then a product >> of that pull request and then a product manager can comment on it directly. manager can comment on it directly. manager can comment on it directly. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Is is it's fantastic. And now right now >> Is is it's fantastic. And now right now >> Is is it's fantastic. And now right now today it's hard. today it's hard. today it's hard. >> It sounds like it's not going to be hard >> It sounds like it's not going to be hard >> It sounds like it's not going to be hard for very long. for very long. for very long. >> No. No. And and and I think again that >> No. No. And and and I think again that >> No. No. And and and I think again that ties back to the workflow, right? like ties back to the workflow, right? like ties back to the workflow, right? like that. Right now the part all of that is that. Right now the part all of that is that. Right now the part all of that is orchestrated around is the pull request orchestrated around is the pull request orchestrated around is the pull request but the pull request typically is still but the pull request typically is still but the pull request typically is still a place where a lot of people will never a place where a lot of people will never a place where a lot of people will never go into. Right. Like so we are trying to go into. Right. Like so we are trying to go into. Right. Like so we are trying to pull it away from the code itself. pull it away from the code itself. pull it away from the code itself. >> Well they'll be in issues. The the >> Well they'll be in issues. The the >> Well they'll be in issues. The the product manager goes to issues. They product manager goes to issues. They product manager goes to issues. They don't go to pull requests. don't go to pull requests. don't go to pull requests. >> Totally right. like so so we're trying >> Totally right. like so so we're trying >> Totally right. like so so we're trying to build this like prompt review flow on to build this like prompt review flow on to build this like prompt review flow on our end where it's like one step our end where it's like one step our end where it's like one step separated from the code and then push separated from the code and then push separated from the code and then push back into the pull request once once back into the pull request once once back into the pull request once once it's ready right like and once it's it's ready right like and once it's it's ready right like and once it's ready to bring it there so it's going to ready to bring it there so it's going to ready to bring it there so it's going to be really like really interesting to to be really like really interesting to to be really like really interesting to to to roll out tomorrow and there's like a to roll out tomorrow and there's like a to roll out tomorrow and there's like a lot of work we want to keep doing on lot of work we want to keep doing on lot of work we want to keep doing on that like we want to bring it into our that like we want to bring it into our that like we want to bring it into our Slack app so you can like directly Slack app so you can like directly Slack app so you can like directly interact with it from there um with more interact with it from there um with more interact with it from there um with more integrations planned um we I think we integrations planned um we I think we integrations planned um we I think we can do a lot more in terms of can do a lot more in terms of can do a lot more in terms of automatically set up like the right MCP automatically set up like the right MCP automatically set up like the right MCP servers for like the tools you're servers for like the tools you're servers for like the tools you're working on and so on and get all of that

working on and so on and get all of that working on and so on and get all of that working because we often sit in that working because we often sit in that working because we often sit in that space where you both have your project space where you both have your project space where you both have your project configured but also all of the like API configured but also all of the like API configured but also all of the like API keys for the different CMSs or APIs or keys for the different CMSs or APIs or keys for the different CMSs or APIs or whatever like you're connecting to, whatever like you're connecting to, whatever like you're connecting to, right? Like so we sit in an interesting right? Like so we sit in an interesting right? Like so we sit in an interesting place to make it much simpler for for place to make it much simpler for for place to make it much simpler for for the agents to like pull in the right the agents to like pull in the right the agents to like pull in the right information and have the right context information and have the right context information and have the right context >> and really just accelerate how how teams >> and really just accelerate how how teams >> and really just accelerate how how teams built together. built together. built together. >> You know I've always been a CLI person >> You know I've always been a CLI person >> You know I've always been a CLI person and I've always loved the terminal. I I and I've always loved the terminal. I I and I've always loved the terminal. I I think you know back to the Commodore 64 think you know back to the Commodore 64 think you know back to the Commodore 64 the terminal is where it's at. I am the terminal is where it's at. I am the terminal is where it's at. I am surprised how quickly in 2025 it took me surprised how quickly in 2025 it took me surprised how quickly in 2025 it took me to to to basically move out of the editor. The basically move out of the editor. The basically move out of the editor. The last two projects that I moved into last two projects that I moved into last two projects that I moved into production, I don't think I ever went production, I don't think I ever went production, I don't think I ever went into an editor. It was done entirely in into an editor. It was done entirely in into an editor. It was done entirely in either Claude or right now I'm using uh either Claude or right now I'm using uh either Claude or right now I'm using uh the GitHub copilot CLI. And the way that the GitHub copilot CLI. And the way that the GitHub copilot CLI. And the way that everyone Codeex, Gemini, Claude, Copilot everyone Codeex, Gemini, Claude, Copilot everyone Codeex, Gemini, Claude, Copilot just said, "Okay, this is the UI. We're just said, "Okay, this is the UI. We're just said, "Okay, this is the UI. We're all just going to do Claude. It's going all just going to do Claude. It's going all just going to do Claude. It's going to be a box. this is how it's going to to be a box. this is how it's going to to be a box. this is how it's going to go. Everyone's just deciding what the go. Everyone's just deciding what the go. Everyone's just deciding what the hot keys are going to be. So, controlr hot keys are going to be. So, controlr hot keys are going to be. So, controlr is expand everywhere. We've already is expand everywhere. We've already is expand everywhere. We've already decided. Um, everyone's kind of getting decided. Um, everyone's kind of getting decided. Um, everyone's kind of getting out of the way. There's the other cool out of the way. There's the other cool out of the way. There's the other cool standards and I've Netleifi is the first standards and I've Netleifi is the first standards and I've Netleifi is the first one I've seen do this. If you go to one I've seen do this. If you go to one I've seen do this. If you go to docs.netlifi.com/lms.ext.

>> There's actually a markup language >> There's actually a markup language effectively like robots.ext except for effectively like robots.ext except for effectively like robots.ext except for LLMs, which is a way for Netlefi the LLMs, which is a way for Netlefi the LLMs, which is a way for Netlefi the platform to say, "Here's my docs." platform to say, "Here's my docs." platform to say, "Here's my docs." >> Yeah. So, it's a standard discoverable >> Yeah. So, it's a standard discoverable >> Yeah. So, it's a standard discoverable thing. I'd love to see, you know, Azure thing. I'd love to see, you know, Azure thing. I'd love to see, you know, Azure and AWS have this be a standard because and AWS have this be a standard because and AWS have this be a standard because why should we be googling from the why should we be googling from the why should we be googling from the command line for our docs? The doc command line for our docs? The doc command line for our docs? The doc should be presented to the LLM in an LLM should be presented to the LLM in an LLM should be presented to the LLM in an LLM friendly way. I really thought that was friendly way. I really thought that was friendly way. I really thought that was very thoughtful of Netleifi to do that. very thoughtful of Netleifi to do that. very thoughtful of Netleifi to do that. Yeah, I mean at the start of the year I Yeah, I mean at the start of the year I Yeah, I mean at the start of the year I coined this term called AX or agent coined this term called AX or agent coined this term called AX or agent experience and it it came out of just experience and it it came out of just experience and it it came out of just like a conversation with a principal like a conversation with a principal like a conversation with a principal engineer now and where it just suddenly engineer now and where it just suddenly engineer now and where it just suddenly emerged we have to think about the emerged we have to think about the emerged we have to think about the experience of the agent experience of the agent experience of the agent >> but I coined it also to really rally the >> but I coined it also to really rally the >> but I coined it also to really rally the team around like team around like team around like >> the way we make Netlifi a really great >> the way we make Netlifi a really great >> the way we make Netlifi a really great developer platform for this new era developer platform for this new era developer platform for this new era is to have a really great agent is to have a really great agent is to have a really great agent experience where it's really simple for experience where it's really simple for experience where it's really simple for agents to understand how to use our agents to understand how to use our agents to understand how to use our platform, how to approach our docs, how platform, how to approach our docs, how platform, how to approach our docs, how to get access to to deploying, how to to get access to to deploying, how to to get access to to deploying, how to orchestrate agents, how to make sure our orchestrate agents, how to make sure our orchestrate agents, how to make sure our CLI tool works really well with agents, CLI tool works really well with agents, CLI tool works really well with agents, how to make sure our MCP is great for how to make sure our MCP is great for how to make sure our MCP is great for agents and so on, right? Like, and agents and so on, right? Like, and agents and so on, right? Like, and there's been a lot of like efforts on there's been a lot of like efforts on there's been a lot of like efforts on the docs around that. same around like the docs around that. same around like the docs around that. same around like every page having like view plain text every page having like view plain text every page having like view plain text version or copy to markdown and so on.

version or copy to markdown and so on. version or copy to markdown and so on. And I actually did an an agent run And I actually did an an agent run And I actually did an an agent run yesterday just as an example. There was yesterday just as an example. There was yesterday just as an example. There was a Twitter thread around like Bunjs a Twitter thread around like Bunjs a Twitter thread around like Bunjs coming up with this idea that um they coming up with this idea that um they coming up with this idea that um they would do content negotiation. So if clot would do content negotiation. So if clot would do content negotiation. So if clot code does a fetch request to their docs, code does a fetch request to their docs, code does a fetch request to their docs, clot code actually doesn't request clot code actually doesn't request clot code actually doesn't request text-h text-h text-h requests application JSON or text plane. requests application JSON or text plane. requests application JSON or text plane. >> So bunch do the docs now detects that >> So bunch do the docs now detects that >> So bunch do the docs now detects that and returns markdown and returns markdown and returns markdown when that's the case instead of when that's the case instead of when that's the case instead of returning HTML, right? like which saves returning HTML, right? like which saves returning HTML, right? like which saves a lot of tokens for the a lot of tokens for the a lot of tokens for the >> as if as if cla is its own user agent >> as if as if cla is its own user agent >> as if as if cla is its own user agent and it's saying oh this this browser the and it's saying oh this this browser the and it's saying oh this this browser the cloud CLI wants things a certain way cloud CLI wants things a certain way cloud CLI wants things a certain way we'll send it to it that way we'll send it to it that way we'll send it to it that way >> exactly right like and it just um so so >> exactly right like and it just um so so >> exactly right like and it just um so so I made a agent run right like I went I made a agent run right like I went I made a agent run right like I went into Netifi and I told in this case into Netifi and I told in this case into Netifi and I told in this case cloud code cloud code cloud code go uh add an edge function to our doc go uh add an edge function to our doc go uh add an edge function to our doc site that looks at the accept header site that looks at the accept header site that looks at the accept header from any client from any client from any client And if that accept header prefers text And if that accept header prefers text And if that accept header prefers text plane over HTML, plane over HTML, plane over HTML, um we should um send the markdown um we should um send the markdown um we should um send the markdown version and send the right vary headers version and send the right vary headers version and send the right vary headers to make sure that like caching works and to make sure that like caching works and to make sure that like caching works and everything. Um and then just kicked it everything. Um and then just kicked it everything. Um and then just kicked it off and like 5 minutes after I could off and like 5 minutes after I could off and like 5 minutes after I could open a pull request to our doc site open a pull request to our doc site open a pull request to our doc site after reviewing it. And uh I think right

after reviewing it. And uh I think right after reviewing it. And uh I think right now we have the event going live now we have the event going live now we have the event going live tomorrow. So no one's shipping anything tomorrow. So no one's shipping anything tomorrow. So no one's shipping anything else right now, but like end of the week else right now, but like end of the week else right now, but like end of the week we'll probably roll this pull request we'll probably roll this pull request we'll probably roll this pull request out and we'll have the same out and we'll have the same out and we'll have the same functionality for our dogs because it functionality for our dogs because it functionality for our dogs because it makes sense, right? Like just make it makes sense, right? Like just make it makes sense, right? Like just make it easier for for these agents to request easier for for these agents to request easier for for these agents to request their information in a way that's really their information in a way that's really their information in a way that's really friendly to the to the LLMs. friendly to the to the LLMs. friendly to the to the LLMs. >> That's really cool. Well, I love that >> That's really cool. Well, I love that >> That's really cool. Well, I love that you're making it work on all the LLMs, you're making it work on all the LLMs, you're making it work on all the LLMs, that you're making it work on all the that you're making it work on all the that you're making it work on all the CLIs, that you're not building your own CLIs, that you're not building your own CLIs, that you're not building your own CLI, but instead you're building toys CLI, but instead you're building toys CLI, but instead you're building toys for us to play with with our agents and for us to play with with our agents and for us to play with with our agents and our LLMs. our LLMs. our LLMs. >> Uh, you can learn all about this at >> Uh, you can learn all about this at >> Uh, you can learn all about this at netfi.com. The event is netfi.com. The event is netfi.com. The event is netifi.com/deploy netifi.com/deploy netifi.com/deploy and you can push your ideas to the web. and you can push your ideas to the web. and you can push your ideas to the web. Thank you so much, Matias Bman, for Thank you so much, Matias Bman, for Thank you so much, Matias Bman, for chatting with me today. chatting with me today. chatting with me today. >> Thanks for having me. This was a lot of >> Thanks for having me. This was a lot of >> Thanks for having me. This was a lot of fun. fun. fun. >> This has been another episode of Hansel >> This has been another episode of Hansel >> This has been another episode of Hansel Minutes, and we'll see you again next Minutes, and we'll see you again next Minutes, and we'll see you again next week. week. week. [Music]