EPISODE 1 - Scott & Mark Learn To... Influence Without Authority

I've always said for the last 15 years I've always said for the last 15 years at Microsoft if you don't get in trouble at Microsoft if you don't get in trouble at Microsoft if you don't get in trouble twice a year for advocating for the twice a year for advocating for the twice a year for advocating for the customer for doing something that you customer for doing something that you customer for doing something that you feel strongly about then you're not feel strongly about then you're not feel strongly about then you're not pushing hard enough now that comes from pushing hard enough now that comes from pushing hard enough now that comes from a place of level privilege but I can a place of level privilege but I can a place of level privilege but I can Shield my team by using my level Shield my team by using my level Shield my team by using my level privilege so like if I came to you mark privilege so like if I came to you mark privilege so like if I came to you mark we'll just pick a random person on your we'll just pick a random person on your we'll just pick a random person on your team let's say Fred I made that na up I team let's say Fred I made that na up I team let's say Fred I made that na up I call you I say Mark I was in a meeting call you I say Mark I was in a meeting call you I say Mark I was in a meeting with Fred and he was so crisp and he was with Fred and he was so crisp and he was with Fred and he was so crisp and he was so strong and aggressive you know and so strong and aggressive you know and so strong and aggressive you know and you would say oh wow so Fred was really you would say oh wow so Fred was really you would say oh wow so Fred was really advocating for the customer and trying advocating for the customer and trying advocating for the customer and trying to do what he felt was right well yeah to do what he felt was right well yeah to do what he felt was right well yeah but I didn't like his tone okay well but I didn't like his tone okay well but I didn't like his tone okay well I'll you know and then you'll take that I'll you know and then you'll take that I'll you know and then you'll take that feedback and you'll put it in the round feedback and you'll put it in the round feedback and you'll put it in the round file uh which is the trash can and file uh which is the trash can and file uh which is the trash can and you'll go to to Fred and you'll say Hey you'll go to to Fred and you'll say Hey you'll go to to Fred and you'll say Hey you know Hanselman thought you were a you know Hanselman thought you were a you know Hanselman thought you were a little crisp in the meeting good job little crisp in the meeting good job little crisp in the meeting good job you're pissing off the right people keep you're pissing off the right people keep you're pissing off the right people keep advocating for the customer right and advocating for the customer right and advocating for the customer right and that's how that's how things get that's how that's how things get that's how that's how things get done that's my opinion so I've been done that's my opinion so I've been done that's my opinion so I've been trying to get the team to get to let trying to get the team to get to let trying to get the team to get to let them know that I will back them up if them know that I will back them up if them know that I will back them up if they bother a few people with their they bother a few people with their they bother a few people with their advocacy all right is that is that a advocacy all right is that is that a advocacy all right is that is that a reasonable thing to do as a leader I reasonable thing to do as a leader I reasonable thing to do as a leader I think so you gota they I mean it comes think so you gota they I mean it comes think so you gota they I mean it comes with balance right I mean there have with balance right I mean there have with balance right I mean there have been people that um advocate for the been people that um advocate for the been people that um advocate for the customer but customer but customer but they're they come across as a they're they come across as a they're they come across as a cic you know and they a cic and they uh cic you know and they a cic and they uh cic you know and they a cic and they uh end up irritating people end up irritating people end up irritating people constantly uh so you got to figure out constantly uh so you got to figure out constantly uh so you got to figure out where the line is where the line is where the line is that's a great point so I want to learn

that's a great point so I want to learn that's a great point so I want to learn I want to learn how to influence people I want to learn how to influence people I want to learn how to influence people without Authority you are the CTO of without Authority you are the CTO of without Authority you are the CTO of azure I assumed did we start that when azure I assumed did we start that when azure I assumed did we start that when you one what's that did we start yeah you one what's that did we start yeah you one what's that did we start yeah we're starting this is the show oh and we're starting this is the show oh and we're starting this is the show oh and even this part right now where I just even this part right now where I just even this part right now where I just said did we start this is the show said did we start this is the show said did we start this is the show that's staying in the show it's in the that's staying in the show it's in the that's staying in the show it's in the show all right that's how that's how show all right that's how that's how show all right that's how that's how this podcast rolled this is Mark and this podcast rolled this is Mark and this podcast rolled this is Mark and having pre-show discussion no there's no having pre-show discussion no there's no having pre-show discussion no there's no pre-show so what we do and even even pre-show so what we do and even even pre-show so what we do and even even this this is a meta thing referring back this this is a meta thing referring back this this is a meta thing referring back to it's still in the show what's going to it's still in the show what's going to it's still in the show what's going to happen in a second is they're going to happen in a second is they're going to happen in a second is they're going to play the music when I say I'm Scott to play the music when I say I'm Scott to play the music when I say I'm Scott hansman and I want to learn how to hansman and I want to learn how to hansman and I want to learn how to influence that influence that influence that Authority you hear that that's the music and now we're back from the music part and now we're back from the music part you're the CTO of azure can't you just you're the CTO of azure can't you just you're the CTO of azure can't you just tell people what to tell people what to tell people what to do yeah uh I can it doesn't always work do yeah uh I can it doesn't always work do yeah uh I can it doesn't always work though um why can't you just make a though um why can't you just make a though um why can't you just make a meeting and you know I realized this uh meeting and you know I realized this uh meeting and you know I realized this uh when I had my own software company I when I had my own software company I when I had my own software company I started a company called winternals in started a company called winternals in started a company called winternals in 1996 and that sold to Microsoft in 2006 1996 and that sold to Microsoft in 2006 1996 and that sold to Microsoft in 2006 I was the chief software architect and I was the chief software architect and I was the chief software architect and co-founder I you know had the ultimate co-founder I you know had the ultimate co-founder I you know had the ultimate Authority and I realized even then Authority and I realized even then Authority and I realized even then telling people what to do it is not a

telling people what to do it is not a telling people what to do it is not a good way to get them to do what you want good way to get them to do what you want good way to get them to do what you want them to them to them to do and so uh you've even then when I had do and so uh you've even then when I had do and so uh you've even then when I had Authority you can't just use authority Authority you can't just use authority Authority you can't just use authority to lead people you've got to use to lead people you've got to use to lead people you've got to use influence and uh of course now I'm in a influence and uh of course now I'm in a influence and uh of course now I'm in a roll where it's where I don't have roll where it's where I don't have roll where it's where I don't have direct authority over most of what I I'm direct authority over most of what I I'm direct authority over most of what I I'm trying to do and I've got to use that trying to do and I've got to use that trying to do and I've got to use that influence more but even when I was at at influence more but even when I was at at influence more but even when I was at at win internals I realized you've got a win internals I realized you've got a win internals I realized you've got a you got to sell people you got to sell you got to sell people you got to sell you got to sell people you got to sell people on the vision and why it matters people on the vision and why it matters people on the vision and why it matters and get them motivated to care about it and get them motivated to care about it and get them motivated to care about it to get them to do things that you want to get them to do things that you want to get them to do things that you want them to do yeah uh SAA uh see here we them to do yeah uh SAA uh see here we them to do yeah uh SAA uh see here we are selling saa's book uh has that whole are selling saa's book uh has that whole are selling saa's book uh has that whole create Clarity generate energy deliver create Clarity generate energy deliver create Clarity generate energy deliver results yeah I feel like it's sheep results yeah I feel like it's sheep results yeah I feel like it's sheep hurting or like that old classic Super hurting or like that old classic Super hurting or like that old classic Super Bowl commercial where they heard the Bowl commercial where they heard the Bowl commercial where they heard the cats you know hey push all the cats and cats you know hey push all the cats and cats you know hey push all the cats and Cat hurting is you're really just trying Cat hurting is you're really just trying Cat hurting is you're really just trying to say hey everyone there's good stuff to say hey everyone there's good stuff to say hey everyone there's good stuff over there let's head in that direction over there let's head in that direction over there let's head in that direction here's kind of the vision it's on the here's kind of the vision it's on the here's kind of the vision it's on the other side of that hill and it's never other side of that hill and it's never other side of that hill and it's never going to be a clean line where we all going to be a clean line where we all going to be a clean line where we all March like Hannibal directly into war March like Hannibal directly into war March like Hannibal directly into war but if we can get most of the cats in but if we can get most of the cats in but if we can get most of the cats in that general direction uh or in the case that general direction uh or in the case that general direction uh or in the case of Microsoft it's the ship turned was of Microsoft it's the ship turned was of Microsoft it's the ship turned was the way we refer to it it's a ship full the way we refer to it it's a ship full the way we refer to it it's a ship full of cats yeah we're mixing metaphors yeah of cats yeah we're mixing metaphors yeah of cats yeah we're mixing metaphors yeah it's a big ship and it it turns very it's a big ship and it it turns very it's a big ship and it it turns very slowly when you got that role and that slowly when you got that role and that slowly when you got that role and that title you didn't have any illusions that title you didn't have any illusions that title you didn't have any illusions that you were going to start bonking heads you were going to start bonking heads you were going to start bonking heads and and uh and telling people that we're and and uh and telling people that we're and and uh and telling people that we're turning and then you do like a neat Tron

turning and then you do like a neat Tron turning and then you do like a neat Tron 90° turn in this giant ship yeah yeah no 90° turn in this giant ship yeah yeah no 90° turn in this giant ship yeah yeah no definitely not yeah the the role has definitely not yeah the the role has definitely not yeah the the role has always been um get and the way that that always been um get and the way that that always been um get and the way that that certainly in this position that I'm in certainly in this position that I'm in certainly in this position that I'm in which is a lot just which is a lot just which is a lot just influence uh I'm able to influence and influence uh I'm able to influence and influence uh I'm able to influence and my ability to influence has generally my ability to influence has generally my ability to influence has generally grown over the time that I've been in grown over the time that I've been in grown over the time that I've been in Azure since 2010 and that's based off of Azure since 2010 and that's based off of Azure since 2010 and that's based off of building trust like what you know you're building trust like what you know you're building trust like what you know you're helping people you're you've got a track helping people you're you've got a track helping people you're you've got a track record of of show getting people to do record of of show getting people to do record of of show getting people to do something and actually it proves to be something and actually it proves to be something and actually it proves to be you know a a good outcomes come from you know a a good outcomes come from you know a a good outcomes come from that and that helps you that builds that and that helps you that builds that and that helps you that builds Capital that then helps you influence Capital that then helps you influence Capital that then helps you influence like when you go say something they're like when you go say something they're like when you go say something they're like oh this person's coming to to say like oh this person's coming to to say like oh this person's coming to to say something they're warning or they're something they're warning or they're something they're warning or they're they're pointing at this direction we they're pointing at this direction we they're pointing at this direction we should go and I'm GNA give that a lot of should go and I'm GNA give that a lot of should go and I'm GNA give that a lot of weight because their history of weight because their history of weight because their history of generally being right about these things generally being right about these things generally being right about these things and even then you still have to here's and even then you still have to here's and even then you still have to here's why here's why it matters why here's why it matters why here's why it matters here's you ever feel like that like why here's you ever feel like that like why here's you ever feel like that like why should anyone listen to this guy like do should anyone listen to this guy like do should anyone listen to this guy like do you do you ever go into meetings or do you do you ever go into meetings or do you do you ever go into meetings or do you always like how do you carry you always like how do you carry you always like how do you carry yourself with that like yeah people yourself with that like yeah people yourself with that like yeah people should listen to me I know things well should listen to me I know things well should listen to me I know things well you you've been in meetings with me fact you you've been in meetings with me fact you you've been in meetings with me fact we've got regular meetings now I go into we've got regular meetings now I go into we've got regular meetings now I go into meetings with you and you announce do meetings with you and you announce do meetings with you and you announce do you know who I think I you know who I think I you know who I think I am that's just meetings with you am that's just meetings with you am that's just meetings with you oneon-one oneon-one oneon-one you're just mean to me in meetings man you're just mean to me in meetings man you're just mean to me in meetings man you're the you're the worst in meetings

you're the you're the worst in meetings you're the you're the worst in meetings me especially when you don't respond to me especially when you don't respond to me especially when you don't respond to me immediately on teams yeah that's true me immediately on teams yeah that's true me immediately on teams yeah that's true I do try to annoy you that goes into the I do try to annoy you that goes into the I do try to annoy you that goes into the round file as well but like I just when round file as well but like I just when round file as well but like I just when I am at my most frustrated I'm like I am at my most frustrated I'm like I am at my most frustrated I'm like someone should do something and uh Scott someone should do something and uh Scott someone should do something and uh Scott Hunter my boss uh when I got uh the Hunter my boss uh when I got uh the Hunter my boss uh when I got uh the title VP a year ago I would go and title VP a year ago I would go and title VP a year ago I would go and complain to him and he said someone complain to him and he said someone complain to him and he said someone should do something and he said yeah should do something and he said yeah should do something and he said yeah someone someone someone should like that's literally you now should like that's literally you now should like that's literally you now yeah actually that's the message SAA yeah actually that's the message SAA yeah actually that's the message SAA gives it that to the exact staff at M gives it that to the exact staff at M gives it that to the exact staff at M is yeah you you shouldn't you don't com is yeah you you shouldn't you don't com is yeah you you shouldn't you don't com your job is not to complain your job is your job is not to complain your job is your job is not to complain your job is to go fix the your complaints yourself to go fix the your complaints yourself to go fix the your complaints yourself like there's no the the buck stops with like there's no the the buck stops with like there's no the the buck stops with you is what he tells us if you're not you is what he tells us if you're not you is what he tells us if you're not going to fix it nobody is yeah but going to fix it nobody is yeah but going to fix it nobody is yeah but there's a natural reaction though like I there's a natural reaction though like I there's a natural reaction though like I think it's normal tell me that I'm not think it's normal tell me that I'm not think it's normal tell me that I'm not the only one uh who's childlike in my be the only one uh who's childlike in my be the only one uh who's childlike in my be but this this is awful someone should do but this this is awful someone should do but this this is awful someone should do something and then you go and you appeal something and then you go and you appeal something and then you go and you appeal to higher authority and then maybe they to higher authority and then maybe they to higher authority and then maybe they have a bigger Hammer maybe there's a have a bigger Hammer maybe there's a have a bigger Hammer maybe there's a bigger Thor with a bigger hammer or are bigger Thor with a bigger hammer or are bigger Thor with a bigger hammer or are you uh such an enlightened and uh mature you uh such an enlightened and uh mature you uh such an enlightened and uh mature individual that you recognize that individual that you recognize that individual that you recognize that there's no one else you you go call there's no one else you you go call there's no one else you you go call Kevin Scott and tell him to tell to Kevin Scott and tell him to tell to Kevin Scott and tell him to tell to bring a bring a bring a hammer um I mean it's it's generly not hammer um I mean it's it's generly not hammer um I mean it's it's generly not like a wow these people are just like a wow these people are just like a wow these people are just completely ignoring it's more like more completely ignoring it's more like more completely ignoring it's more like more more the most of the time when you when more the most of the time when you when more the most of the time when you when I'll call on Scott or or the engineering I'll call on Scott or or the engineering I'll call on Scott or or the engineering leaders this very senior engineering leaders this very senior engineering leaders this very senior engineering leadership it's more leadership it's more leadership it's more like the orig itself hasn't been given

like the orig itself hasn't been given like the orig itself hasn't been given the priority or it's a priority but the priority or it's a priority but the priority or it's a priority but there's no accountable person or there's no accountable person or there's no accountable person or organization to to make it happen and organization to to make it happen and organization to to make it happen and that means that nobody feels accountable that means that nobody feels accountable that means that nobody feels accountable for it they'll all agree it's important for it they'll all agree it's important for it they'll all agree it's important but nothing gets done and that's but nothing gets done and that's but nothing gets done and that's generally when I'll have to go talk to generally when I'll have to go talk to generally when I'll have to go talk to the engineering leaders and say we've the engineering leaders and say we've the engineering leaders and say we've got a gap here like on got a gap here like on got a gap here like on driving this thing yeah the Gap thing driving this thing yeah the Gap thing driving this thing yeah the Gap thing has been really interesting to me I have has been really interesting to me I have has been really interesting to me I have found a couple of interesting gaps that found a couple of interesting gaps that found a couple of interesting gaps that aren't my job they're explicitly not my aren't my job they're explicitly not my aren't my job they're explicitly not my job job like I'm interested in arm and job job like I'm interested in arm and job job like I'm interested in arm and the shift from x64 to Alternative uh the shift from x64 to Alternative uh the shift from x64 to Alternative uh processing and arm is really attractive processing and arm is really attractive processing and arm is really attractive both in the cloud and also on desktops both in the cloud and also on desktops both in the cloud and also on desktops and I'm noticing some some ecosystem and I'm noticing some some ecosystem and I'm noticing some some ecosystem gaps some open source gaps and stuff gaps some open source gaps and stuff gaps some open source gaps and stuff like that but it appears that in some like that but it appears that in some like that but it appears that in some instances it's not anyone's job M so instances it's not anyone's job M so instances it's not anyone's job M so then when I complain about it what I'm then when I complain about it what I'm then when I complain about it what I'm really complaining about is like there really complaining about is like there really complaining about is like there either is someone out there whose job it either is someone out there whose job it either is someone out there whose job it is or it doesn't exist as a job and then is or it doesn't exist as a job and then is or it doesn't exist as a job and then when you go and try to get people to do when you go and try to get people to do when you go and try to get people to do what you want them to do they're like I what you want them to do they're like I what you want them to do they're like I have stuff to do like I get I have no have stuff to do like I get I have no have stuff to do like I get I have no more extra days to do the thing you more extra days to do the thing you more extra days to do the thing you think is think is think is important that's where things get important that's where things get important that's where things get uncomfortable for me yeah fortunately uncomfortable for me yeah fortunately uncomfortable for me yeah fortunately what I do in the influence of finding a what I do in the influence of finding a what I do in the influence of finding a gap like that where nobody's doing it gap like that where nobody's doing it gap like that where nobody's doing it is um the having the ability to convince is um the having the ability to convince is um the having the ability to convince people this really is important enough people this really is important enough people this really is important enough to for you to go and rep prioritize what to for you to go and rep prioritize what to for you to go and rep prioritize what you're doing um and a lot of times I you're doing um and a lot of times I you're doing um and a lot of times I don't have to just get into the you know

don't have to just get into the you know don't have to just get into the you know exactly what are you doing let me see exactly what are you doing let me see exactly what are you doing let me see the list and let me you know this needs the list and let me you know this needs the list and let me you know this needs to be dro the naturally they'll do that to be dro the naturally they'll do that to be dro the naturally they'll do that themselves um and there is occasions themselves um and there is occasions themselves um and there is occasions like I you're talking about just a like I you're talking about just a like I you're talking about just a second ago uh where there is uh second ago uh where there is uh second ago uh where there is uh something that's a priority but nobody something that's a priority but nobody something that's a priority but nobody can re prioritize what they're doing to can re prioritize what they're doing to can re prioritize what they're doing to make room for it and that's where you make room for it and that's where you make room for it and that's where you need the people that own the resources need the people that own the resources need the people that own the resources to say I'm going to reallocate now to to say I'm going to reallocate now to to say I'm going to reallocate now to get this done yeah the problem is that get this done yeah the problem is that get this done yeah the problem is that there's always a way to say that there's always a way to say that there's always a way to say that something is more important like something is more important like something is more important like security things or the house is on fire security things or the house is on fire security things or the house is on fire you know it's like hey I don't like the you know it's like hey I don't like the you know it's like hey I don't like the color of this carpet yeah but the house color of this carpet yeah but the house color of this carpet yeah but the house is on fire uh that kind of stuff is is on fire uh that kind of stuff is is on fire uh that kind of stuff is always challenging because then then you always challenging because then then you always challenging because then then you get into those if you had $100 would you get into those if you had $100 would you get into those if you had $100 would you spend your $100 this is the whole spend your $100 this is the whole spend your $100 this is the whole important versus urgent yeah if you're important versus urgent yeah if you're important versus urgent yeah if you're always chase if you only chase the always chase if you only chase the always chase if you only chase the urgent things the important things never urgent things the important things never urgent things the important things never get done and they end end up becoming get done and they end end up becoming get done and they end end up becoming ENT and actually I mean that's a risk ENT and actually I mean that's a risk ENT and actually I mean that's a risk always um and this is like the art of always um and this is like the art of always um and this is like the art of resource allocation because there's resource allocation because there's resource allocation because there's always way too many things that are always way too many things that are always way too many things that are important for you to do and there's also important for you to do and there's also important for you to do and there's also a set of urgent things if you don't do a set of urgent things if you don't do a set of urgent things if you don't do them you're not going to be able to do them you're not going to be able to do them you're not going to be able to do anything uh anything uh anything uh eventually isn't that but that that's eventually isn't that but that that's eventually isn't that but that that's that's your own personal resource that's your own personal resource that's your own personal resource allocation how much time do you have and allocation how much time do you have and allocation how much time do you have and then your own team and ultimately then your own team and ultimately then your own team and ultimately there's always a cut line isn't there there's always a cut line isn't there there's always a cut line isn't there there's always a where we're just not there's always a where we're just not there's always a where we're just not gonna be able to do that that's not a gonna be able to do that that's not a gonna be able to do that that's not a thing we're doing yeah thing we're doing yeah thing we're doing yeah yeah that's tough I I want to figure out yeah that's tough I I want to figure out yeah that's tough I I want to figure out the balance because you know there's the balance because you know there's the balance because you know there's this hierarchy and like big companies in

this hierarchy and like big companies in this hierarchy and like big companies in capitalism build these hierarchies of capitalism build these hierarchies of capitalism build these hierarchies of like your bosses and your skip bosses like your bosses and your skip bosses like your bosses and your skip bosses and stuff like that and you want to and stuff like that and you want to and stuff like that and you want to empower people to make decisions on empower people to make decisions on empower people to make decisions on their own you want to give them clear their own you want to give them clear their own you want to give them clear priorities but then you're not really priorities but then you're not really priorities but then you're not really sure what we should be working on and sure what we should be working on and sure what we should be working on and then it makes me wonder like what Sacha then it makes me wonder like what Sacha then it makes me wonder like what Sacha and what a CEO of a company of hundreds and what a CEO of a company of hundreds and what a CEO of a company of hundreds of thousands of people does like does he of thousands of people does like does he of thousands of people does like does he give three bullets and that's our give three bullets and that's our give three bullets and that's our priorities and then the next people give priorities and then the next people give priorities and then the next people give three bullets and it like gets more and three bullets and it like gets more and three bullets and it like gets more and more and more granular all the way down more and more granular all the way down more and more granular all the way down like I probably shouldn't call him and like I probably shouldn't call him and like I probably shouldn't call him and say move the taskar to the left that's say move the taskar to the left that's say move the taskar to the left that's the thing we need to be working on right the thing we need to be working on right the thing we need to be working on right now is make it to the taskar can go to now is make it to the taskar can go to now is make it to the taskar can go to the left yeah you call yeah Scott the left yeah you call yeah Scott the left yeah you call yeah Scott Guthrie he'll tell you to do that right Guthrie he'll tell you to do that right Guthrie he'll tell you to do that right call Guthrie and then he'll find well call Guthrie and then he'll find well call Guthrie and then he'll find well and then it rolls downhill and then I'll and then it rolls downhill and then I'll and then it rolls downhill and then I'll end up doing it no well Guthrie will end up doing it no well Guthrie will end up doing it no well Guthrie will just look at your thing and go the task just look at your thing and go the task just look at your thing and go the task bar needs to be three pixels to the left bar needs to be three pixels to the left bar needs to be three pixels to the left he gets that he gets that involved in he gets that he gets that involved in he gets that he gets that involved in aesthetic well so that's funny that's a aesthetic well so that's funny that's a aesthetic well so that's funny that's a funny example actually I used to hang funny example actually I used to hang funny example actually I used to hang out with Guthrie when we did asp.net MVC out with Guthrie when we did asp.net MVC out with Guthrie when we did asp.net MVC early days of Open Source and.net and early days of Open Source and.net and early days of Open Source and.net and you know he was already a general you know he was already a general you know he was already a general manager but he would still have an manager but he would still have an manager but he would still have an attention to detail where we talk about attention to detail where we talk about attention to detail where we talk about are we doing KRC uh curly braces or are are we doing KRC uh curly braces or are are we doing KRC uh curly braces or are we doing them like like that was a we doing them like like that was a we doing them like like that was a detail oriented thing how how deep do detail oriented thing how how deep do detail oriented thing how how deep do you get because I've seen you get like you get because I've seen you get like you get because I've seen you get like stupid deep uh Stupid with two o's yeah stupid deep uh Stupid with two o's yeah stupid deep uh Stupid with two o's yeah uh do you just do that because you enjoy uh do you just do that because you enjoy uh do you just do that because you enjoy it like you don't need to like reach it like you don't need to like reach it like you don't need to like reach nine deep into the OR and start telling nine deep into the OR and start telling nine deep into the OR and start telling people what to do but it's enjoyable people what to do but it's enjoyable people what to do but it's enjoyable sometimes I I do it because um I think

sometimes I I do it because um I think sometimes I I do it because um I think it's important to understand a few it's important to understand a few it's important to understand a few levels deeper than the one you're levels deeper than the one you're levels deeper than the one you're operating at and I always felt felt this operating at and I always felt felt this operating at and I always felt felt this for example I when I was um learning for example I when I was um learning for example I when I was um learning Windows internals and then teaching Windows internals and then teaching Windows internals and then teaching windows and getting into new areas that windows and getting into new areas that windows and getting into new areas that I wanted to talk about or write an I wanted to talk about or write an I wanted to talk about or write an article about it or write a chapter in article about it or write a chapter in article about it or write a chapter in the inter internals book I H I felt I the inter internals book I H I felt I the inter internals book I H I felt I had to go one at least one level deeper had to go one at least one level deeper had to go one at least one level deeper than what I was going to write about or than what I was going to write about or than what I was going to write about or talk about y because if I didn't I talk about y because if I didn't I talk about y because if I didn't I wasn't sure if I was really correct and wasn't sure if I was really correct and wasn't sure if I was really correct and accurate and accurate and accurate and complete and I also needed to go to that complete and I also needed to go to that complete and I also needed to go to that level depth so that I could process it level depth so that I could process it level depth so that I could process it and then abstract it for people if and then abstract it for people if and then abstract it for people if you're if you're not doing that then you're if you're not doing that then you're if you're not doing that then you're just kind of regurgitating things you're just kind of regurgitating things you're just kind of regurgitating things and don't really have a true deep and don't really have a true deep and don't really have a true deep understanding and I think the same understanding and I think the same understanding and I think the same that's why you see me in these meetings that's why you see me in these meetings that's why you see me in these meetings go deep is so that I can learn something go deep is so that I can learn something go deep is so that I can learn something underneath that can help me put in the underneath that can help me put in the underneath that can help me put in the you you you know understand where at the level that know understand where at the level that know understand where at the level that I'm operating and care about what are I'm operating and care about what are I'm operating and care about what are the constraints and requirements and how the constraints and requirements and how the constraints and requirements and how things really work underneath that yeah things really work underneath that yeah things really work underneath that yeah that's a really good thing that's a that's a really good thing that's a that's a really good thing that's a takeaway for for folks that are takeaway for for folks that are takeaway for for folks that are listening if you want to learn how to do listening if you want to learn how to do listening if you want to learn how to do stuff I say that a lot you and I have stuff I say that a lot you and I have stuff I say that a lot you and I have been bouncing that idea of learn find been bouncing that idea of learn find been bouncing that idea of learn find your comfort zone find where you are and your comfort zone find where you are and your comfort zone find where you are and then get uncomfortable by going one then get uncomfortable by going one then get uncomfortable by going one layer deep one layer deep on the call layer deep one layer deep on the call layer deep one layer deep on the call stack right if you have been a c stack right if you have been a c stack right if you have been a c programmer for years and you've never programmer for years and you've never programmer for years and you've never programmed without a garbage collector programmed without a garbage collector programmed without a garbage collector try without a garbage collector never try without a garbage collector never try without a garbage collector never you opened up wind dbg wind bag and take

you opened up wind dbg wind bag and take you opened up wind dbg wind bag and take a dump huh and take that dump and then a dump huh and take that dump and then a dump huh and take that dump and then debug it you know what I mean said that debug it you know what I mean said that debug it you know what I mean said that but you know what I'm saying like go one but you know what I'm saying like go one but you know what I'm saying like go one level belg you just shown your level belg you just shown your level belg you just shown your naive oh pardon me how do you say is it naive oh pardon me how do you say is it naive oh pardon me how do you say is it wind or wind bag it's wind bag wind or wind bag it's wind bag wind or wind bag it's wind bag yeah it's so funny uh what was it um yeah it's so funny uh what was it um yeah it's so funny uh what was it um David Fowler has been trying to get uh David Fowler has been trying to get uh David Fowler has been trying to get uh nouet he wants me to say n and then like nouet he wants me to say n and then like nouet he wants me to say n and then like the nougat packages are the nougat packages are the nougat packages are nutcakes and uh it's so funny to try to nutcakes and uh it's so funny to try to nutcakes and uh it's so funny to try to influence people speaking of influencing influence people speaking of influencing influence people speaking of influencing is he trying to say n is that for real is he trying to say n is that for real is he trying to say n is that for real like he want no it's like it's like like he want no it's like it's like like he want no it's like it's like saying tar like I'm going to tar or saying tar like I'm going to tar or saying tar like I'm going to tar or jacalin pine it makes it sound fancier jacalin pine it makes it sound fancier jacalin pine it makes it sound fancier yeah but like um like never heard that n yeah but like um like never heard that n yeah but like um like never heard that n yeah I trying to get people to shush yeah I trying to get people to shush yeah I trying to get people to shush into production yeah yeah that could be into production yeah yeah that could be into production yeah yeah that could be a thing it could be a thing I tried it a thing it could be a thing I tried it a thing it could be a thing I tried it for a while it didn't stick it didn't for a while it didn't stick it didn't for a while it didn't stick it didn't nobody nobody was shushing into nobody nobody was shushing into nobody nobody was shushing into production yeah sometimes people production yeah sometimes people production yeah sometimes people Handelman into production I used to Handelman into production I used to Handelman into production I used to remote desktop directly into production remote desktop directly into production remote desktop directly into production machines and they called it hlan it machines and they called it hlan it machines and they called it hlan it because it was a bad because it was a bad because it was a bad idea but but yeah like do you like like idea but but yeah like do you like like idea but but yeah like do you like like Scott Hunter my boss and Amanda Amanda's Scott Hunter my boss and Amanda Amanda's Scott Hunter my boss and Amanda Amanda's a like Amanda silver runs all of Studio a like Amanda silver runs all of Studio a like Amanda silver runs all of Studio she's a compiler nerd so you'll catch she's a compiler nerd so you'll catch she's a compiler nerd so you'll catch her in vs yes um and you're coding you her in vs yes um and you're coding you her in vs yes um and you're coding you know every week I wonder like does SAA know every week I wonder like does SAA know every week I wonder like does SAA ever crack open stuff like wonder what ever crack open stuff like wonder what ever crack open stuff like wonder what the SAA or the CEO equivalent of going the SAA or the CEO equivalent of going the SAA or the CEO equivalent of going one level below your comfort zone um one level below your comfort zone um one level below your comfort zone um what I see him doing this is fascinating

what I see him doing this is fascinating what I see him doing this is fascinating is uh every now and then on a pretty is uh every now and then on a pretty is uh every now and then on a pretty frequent basis he'll I I'll get an email frequent basis he'll I I'll get an email frequent basis he'll I I'll get an email from him with some other people on it from him with some other people on it from him with some other people on it it'll be like SAA coming across a it'll be like SAA coming across a it'll be like SAA coming across a technical article or a blog post on some technical article or a blog post on some technical article or a blog post on some aspect of cloud native Computing or AI aspect of cloud native Computing or AI aspect of cloud native Computing or AI accelerators or whatever and they'll say accelerators or whatever and they'll say accelerators or whatever and they'll say this is really interesting this point this is really interesting this point this is really interesting this point that they make here in fact there was that they make here in fact there was that they make here in fact there was just one a few days ago I'm like or a just one a few days ago I'm like or a just one a few days ago I'm like or a Hacker News thread I'm like how do SAA Hacker News thread I'm like how do SAA Hacker News thread I'm like how do SAA have time to go reading Hacker News in have time to go reading Hacker News in have time to go reading Hacker News in these BL post on these BL post on these BL post on medium and then but he does yeah uh medium and then but he does yeah uh medium and then but he does yeah uh Scott Hunter uh does this thing we call Scott Hunter uh does this thing we call Scott Hunter uh does this thing we call it Hunter driven development where he'll it Hunter driven development where he'll it Hunter driven development where he'll find gaps in the product because he'll find gaps in the product because he'll find gaps in the product because he'll force himself to do a keynote and then force himself to do a keynote and then force himself to do a keynote and then the night before in the hotel he'll find the night before in the hotel he'll find the night before in the hotel he'll find a gap or something and then it's like a gap or something and then it's like a gap or something and then it's like okay and that's that's just it's it's okay and that's that's just it's it's okay and that's that's just it's it's like um if you've got a muscle that's like um if you've got a muscle that's like um if you've got a muscle that's not that's kind of tight and he's just not that's kind of tight and he's just not that's kind of tight and he's just pushing on it until he ah I found the pushing on it until he ah I found the pushing on it until he ah I found the knot yeah and then he starts pushing on knot yeah and then he starts pushing on knot yeah and then he starts pushing on the knot and that product knot makes a the knot and that product knot makes a the knot and that product knot makes a better product because because our better product because because our better product because because our leader went one layer deeper well leader went one layer deeper well leader went one layer deeper well actually th this is a great example of I actually th this is a great example of I actually th this is a great example of I think something that I try to encourage think something that I try to encourage think something that I try to encourage people to do and it's really important people to do and it's really important people to do and it's really important is and I saw this in Windows when I'd is and I saw this in Windows when I'd is and I saw this in Windows when I'd come to Microsoft uh with Dave Solomon come to Microsoft uh with Dave Solomon come to Microsoft uh with Dave Solomon to teach Windows inter internals is I to teach Windows inter internals is I to teach Windows inter internals is I was never I'm I'm not the world's expert was never I'm I'm not the world's expert was never I'm I'm not the world's expert on for example the registry or even one on for example the registry or even one on for example the registry or even one back then I was because there was always back then I was because there was always back then I was because there was always the the guy that made the registry or the the guy that made the registry or the the guy that made the registry or owned that component that's the world's owned that component that's the world's owned that component that's the world's expert but what I found was that the

expert but what I found was that the expert but what I found was that the registry guy or girl knew the registry registry guy or girl knew the registry registry guy or girl knew the registry but didn't know anything about memory but didn't know anything about memory but didn't know anything about memory management or didn't know anything about management or didn't know anything about management or didn't know anything about thread scheduling and so I would come thread scheduling and so I would come thread scheduling and so I would come because I knew quite a bit about all because I knew quite a bit about all because I knew quite a bit about all those things and taught those the those things and taught those the those things and taught those the windows Engineers about the other windows Engineers about the other windows Engineers about the other systems of Windows that they weren't systems of Windows that they weren't systems of Windows that they weren't working on working on working on but I've always felt that and and maybe but I've always felt that and and maybe but I've always felt that and and maybe that you know it's a good thing that that you know it's a good thing that that you know it's a good thing that they were coming to the class to learn they were coming to the class to learn they were coming to the class to learn those things is that people end up those things is that people end up those things is that people end up falling into silos like I'm working on falling into silos like I'm working on falling into silos like I'm working on my component I come every day to work my component I come every day to work my component I come every day to work and that's what I'm going to do and and and that's what I'm going to do and and and that's what I'm going to do and and they're completely blind to everything they're completely blind to everything they're completely blind to everything else that around their component they else that around their component they else that around their component they just and it's so important I think just and it's so important I think just and it's so important I think especially if you want to advance in especially if you want to advance in especially if you want to advance in career to understand how your component career to understand how your component career to understand how your component fits into the big picture and to fits into the big picture and to fits into the big picture and to understand the big picture and this um understand the big picture and this um understand the big picture and this um applies even in Azure for example where applies even in Azure for example where applies even in Azure for example where developers are working on their specific developers are working on their specific developers are working on their specific service and they don't really know service and they don't really know service and they don't really know anything about the other services in anything about the other services in anything about the other services in Azure or how they work or the the end Azure or how they work or the the end Azure or how they work or the the end to-end user experience which is so to-end user experience which is so to-end user experience which is so important like my service is this important like my service is this important like my service is this service but how do people interact with service but how do people interact with service but how do people interact with my service yep what's what what's the my service yep what's what what's the my service yep what's what what's the SDK like for them how what's the portal SDK like for them how what's the portal SDK like for them how what's the portal look like when they go use my service look like when they go use my service look like when they go use my service and it's unfortunate it's just a general and it's unfortunate it's just a general and it's unfortunate it's just a general thing I think because people get so CAU thing I think because people get so CAU thing I think because people get so CAU up on what they're doing is that a lot up on what they're doing is that a lot up on what they're doing is that a lot of you'll find Engineers that they're of you'll find Engineers that they're of you'll find Engineers that they're working on their component they've never working on their component they've never working on their component they've never seen the portal experience for their seen the portal experience for their seen the portal experience for their component okay so then using that what component okay so then using that what component okay so then using that what we just learned to influence people

we just learned to influence people we just learned to influence people without having explicit authority over without having explicit authority over without having explicit authority over them is I've I've explored this I've them is I've I've explored this I've them is I've I've explored this I've become a t-shaped developer I see how I become a t-shaped developer I see how I become a t-shaped developer I see how I fit into the big picture then I can go fit into the big picture then I can go fit into the big picture then I can go and use customer empathy product Le and use customer empathy product Le and use customer empathy product Le growth and tell leaders hey I think if growth and tell leaders hey I think if growth and tell leaders hey I think if you uplevel this as now that I've dug in you uplevel this as now that I've dug in you uplevel this as now that I've dug in we should make a change and I will take we should make a change and I will take we should make a change and I will take feedback from anyone at every any level feedback from anyone at every any level feedback from anyone at every any level if they have an Insight that shows that if they have an Insight that shows that if they have an Insight that shows that they understand the stack and the they understand the stack and the they understand the stack and the product yeah it just I think um makes product yeah it just I think um makes product yeah it just I think um makes you more well-rounded you understand you more well-rounded you understand you more well-rounded you understand your component significance in the big your component significance in the big your component significance in the big story you understand what the customers story you understand what the customers story you understand what the customers are experiencing and maybe it's not your are experiencing and maybe it's not your are experiencing and maybe it's not your job you know the portal experience isn't job you know the portal experience isn't job you know the portal experience isn't your job but but it is your component your job but but it is your component your job but but it is your component like and pride in ownership and what I like and pride in ownership and what I like and pride in ownership and what I do and what I contribute you know that do and what I contribute you know that do and what I contribute you know that should translate into you know what this should translate into you know what this should translate into you know what this us experience is not that great here's us experience is not that great here's us experience is not that great here's an improvement we can make and I know an improvement we can make and I know an improvement we can make and I know because I I've tried it yeah so get because I I've tried it yeah so get because I I've tried it yeah so get outside your comfort zone go a little outside your comfort zone go a little outside your comfort zone go a little deeper in the stack you don't have to be deeper in the stack you don't have to be deeper in the stack you don't have to be a full stack developer no one's asking a full stack developer no one's asking a full stack developer no one's asking you to smelt your own Iron put lightning you to smelt your own Iron put lightning you to smelt your own Iron put lightning and silicon and try to make a processor and silicon and try to make a processor and silicon and try to make a processor but like just a layer deep but then also but like just a layer deep but then also but like just a layer deep but then also uplevel where do you fit into the uplevel where do you fit into the uplevel where do you fit into the machine systems thinking we should do a machine systems thinking we should do a machine systems thinking we should do a show on systems thinking because there's show on systems thinking because there's show on systems thinking because there's a lot of people learning how to code but a lot of people learning how to code but a lot of people learning how to code but there's not a lot of people learning how there's not a lot of people learning how there's not a lot of people learning how to think so maybe Scott and Mark learned to think so maybe Scott and Mark learned to think so maybe Scott and Mark learned to think would be a cool show yeah all to think would be a cool show yeah all to think would be a cool show yeah all right well I'm learning how to influence right well I'm learning how to influence right well I'm learning how to influence with authority you've given me a lot of with authority you've given me a lot of with authority you've given me a lot of thoughts I got a team meeting coming up thoughts I got a team meeting coming up thoughts I got a team meeting coming up a little later this afternoon I'm going

a little later this afternoon I'm going a little later this afternoon I'm going to put some uh some thought into this to put some uh some thought into this to put some uh some thought into this thank you for uh for this show yeah thank you for uh for this show yeah thank you for uh for this show yeah thanks Scott we are learning here on thanks Scott we are learning here on thanks Scott we are learning here on Scott and Mark learn to uh we're Scott and Mark learn to uh we're Scott and Mark learn to uh we're learning how to do a podcast so if you learning how to do a podcast so if you learning how to do a podcast so if you like this show reach out to us on social like this show reach out to us on social like this show reach out to us on social give us ideas on what we can talk about give us ideas on what we can talk about give us ideas on what we can talk about in the next episodes and your shares in the next episodes and your shares in the next episodes and your shares your reviews your stars on wherever you your reviews your stars on wherever you your reviews your stars on wherever you get your podcasts are very much get your podcasts are very much get your podcasts are very much appreciated we're doing this because we appreciated we're doing this because we appreciated we're doing this because we love to learn and we hope you love love to learn and we hope you love love to learn and we hope you love listening to it catch you again next listening to it catch you again next listening to it catch you again next week week week [Music]