Building the Internet with sendmail's Eric Allman

So, I've seen a lot of stuff happen. So, I've seen a lot of stuff happen. It's been kind of interesting. It's It's been kind of interesting. It's It's been kind of interesting. It's you know, when the network first you know, when the network first you know, when the network first appeared, we appeared, we appeared, we I think had this fantasy that I think had this fantasy that I think had this fantasy that we were going to we were going to we were going to you know, bring understanding to the you know, bring understanding to the you know, bring understanding to the world. When everyone could communicate world. When everyone could communicate world. When everyone could communicate with everyone else, then, you know, wars with everyone else, then, you know, wars with everyone else, then, you know, wars would be gone and would be gone and would be gone and so forth and so on. We really so forth and so on. We really so forth and so on. We really had a concept that this is going to be a had a concept that this is going to be a had a concept that this is going to be a utopian future. Now that it's the utopian future. Now that it's the utopian future. Now that it's the future, [clears throat] future, [clears throat] future, [clears throat] I don't think it looks quite as utopian I don't think it looks quite as utopian I don't think it looks quite as utopian as we used to think it would be. as we used to think it would be. as we used to think it would be. Hey friends, you probably knew that Text Hey friends, you probably knew that Text Hey friends, you probably knew that Text Control is a powerful library for Control is a powerful library for Control is a powerful library for document editing and PDF generation, but document editing and PDF generation, but document editing and PDF generation, but did you also know that they're a strong did you also know that they're a strong did you also know that they're a strong supporter of the developer community? supporter of the developer community? supporter of the developer community? And it's part of their mission to build And it's part of their mission to build And it's part of their mission to build and support a strong community by being and support a strong community by being and support a strong community by being present, by listening to users, and by present, by listening to users, and by present, by listening to users, and by sharing knowledge at conferences across sharing knowledge at conferences across sharing knowledge at conferences across Europe and the United States. If you're Europe and the United States. If you're Europe and the United States. If you're heading to a conference soon, heading to a conference soon, heading to a conference soon, maybe check if Text Control will be maybe check if Text Control will be maybe check if Text Control will be there. Stop by and say hi. You'll find there. Stop by and say hi. You'll find there. Stop by and say hi. You'll find their full conference calendar at their full conference calendar at their full conference calendar at textcontrol.com.

textcontrol.com. textcontrol.com. That's t e x t control.com. That's t e x t control.com. That's t e x t control.com. Hi, I'm Scott Hanselman, and this is Hi, I'm Scott Hanselman, and this is Hi, I'm Scott Hanselman, and this is another episode of Hanselminutes in another episode of Hanselminutes in another episode of Hanselminutes in association with the ACM Bytecast. association with the ACM Bytecast. association with the ACM Bytecast. Today, I have the distinct pleasure for Today, I have the distinct pleasure for Today, I have the distinct pleasure for with chatting with Eric Allman. with chatting with Eric Allman. with chatting with Eric Allman. He is a computer programmer who He is a computer programmer who He is a computer programmer who developed Sendmail and its precursor developed Sendmail and its precursor developed Sendmail and its precursor Delivermail in the late 1970s at UC Delivermail in the late 1970s at UC Delivermail in the late 1970s at UC Berkeley. And in 1998, he and Greg Olson Berkeley. And in 1998, he and Greg Olson Berkeley. And in 1998, he and Greg Olson co-founded Sendmail Incorporated. How co-founded Sendmail Incorporated. How co-founded Sendmail Incorporated. How are you, sir? are you, sir? are you, sir? I'm doing pretty well. It's a lovely I'm doing pretty well. It's a lovely I'm doing pretty well. It's a lovely day. It is a lovely day. I woke up and I day. It is a lovely day. I woke up and I day. It is a lovely day. I woke up and I thought to myself, thought to myself, thought to myself, I'm going to try to get some sun and I'm going to try to get some sun and I'm going to try to get some sun and some vitamin D today. And I think that some vitamin D today. And I think that some vitamin D today. And I think that as programmers, I'm sure it's a constant as programmers, I'm sure it's a constant as programmers, I'm sure it's a constant balance between working on the thing balance between working on the thing balance between working on the thing that captures your attention and trying that captures your attention and trying that captures your attention and trying to get some to get some to get some some sunshine and touching grass. Yeah. some sunshine and touching grass. Yeah. some sunshine and touching grass. Yeah. And how good, man. I'm looking out my And how good, man. I'm looking out my And how good, man. I'm looking out my window at the garden right now, so. window at the garden right now, so. window at the garden right now, so. So, you are currently retired. I'm So, you are currently retired. I'm So, you are currently retired. I'm curious what made you retire. Some curious what made you retire. Some curious what made you retire. Some people just work until they finally fall people just work until they finally fall people just work until they finally fall into a hole. into a hole. into a hole. I think I would probably have to say had I think I would probably have to say had I think I would probably have to say had a lot to do with a lot to do with a lot to do with well, actually a lot of things.

well, actually a lot of things. well, actually a lot of things. I retired basically during COVID. I retired basically during COVID. I retired basically during COVID. I was working at UC Berkeley for my my I was working at UC Berkeley for my my I was working at UC Berkeley for my my third job at UC Berkeley, third and third job at UC Berkeley, third and third job at UC Berkeley, third and presumably last. presumably last. presumably last. And And And the last grad student on the project I the last grad student on the project I the last grad student on the project I was working on graduated. was working on graduated. was working on graduated. And the new grad students didn't show up And the new grad students didn't show up And the new grad students didn't show up because of COVID. because of COVID. because of COVID. But, they were working together and I But, they were working together and I But, they were working together and I had worked on a project with this group, had worked on a project with this group, had worked on a project with this group, and I had assumed they were going to and I had assumed they were going to and I had assumed they were going to leverage off the code that I had already leverage off the code that I had already leverage off the code that I had already written and I and, you know, the other written and I and, you know, the other written and I and, you know, the other people in the group. people in the group. people in the group. And they didn't. They wanted to go in a And they didn't. They wanted to go in a And they didn't. They wanted to go in a totally different direction. So, at some totally different direction. So, at some totally different direction. So, at some point, I went, you know, they're paying point, I went, you know, they're paying point, I went, you know, they're paying me me me to do nothing.

Yeah, bunch of things just came together Yeah, bunch of things just came together all at once. And have you been able to all at once. And have you been able to all at once. And have you been able to do that traveling? do that traveling? do that traveling? Um, yeah. Actually, we've got Um, yeah. Actually, we've got Um, yeah. Actually, we've got we've done a couple of trips, several we've done a couple of trips, several we've done a couple of trips, several trips actually, and we've got two other trips actually, and we've got two other trips actually, and we've got two other big ones coming up um, this year, big ones coming up um, this year, big ones coming up um, this year, including a uh train tour around Africa. including a uh train tour around Africa. including a uh train tour around Africa. Oh, wow. Oh, wow. Oh, wow. So. So. So. >> That's amazing. Yeah, should be kind of >> That's amazing. Yeah, should be kind of >> That's amazing. Yeah, should be kind of fun. fun. fun. So, I've been I've been married for 25 So, I've been I've been married for 25 So, I've been I've been married for 25 years. You're coming up on 13 this year, years. You're coming up on 13 this year, years. You're coming up on 13 this year, is that right, sir? is that right, sir? is that right, sir? Actually, Actually, Actually, based on the beginning of our based on the beginning of our based on the beginning of our relationship, relationship, relationship, it's more like 40 it's more like 40 it's more like 40 >> Oh my goodness. >> Oh my goodness. >> Oh my goodness. >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> 44, 46, somewhere in there. Okay, that's >> 44, 46, somewhere in there. Okay, that's >> 44, 46, somewhere in there. Okay, that's amazing. We got together in '79. Oh, amazing. We got together in '79. Oh, amazing. We got together in '79. Oh, wow, that's fantastic. And and your wow, that's fantastic. And and your wow, that's fantastic. And and your husband, Marshall, is a well-known husband, Marshall, is a well-known husband, Marshall, is a well-known computer scientist as well. And I'm computer scientist as well. And I'm computer scientist as well. And I'm curious because my wife and I, she is curious because my wife and I, she is curious because my wife and I, she is non-technical. She's a nurse. And we non-technical. She's a nurse. And we non-technical. She's a nurse. And we were writing a book on what it's like to were writing a book on what it's like to were writing a book on what it's like to be in a mixed marriage. And the joke is be in a mixed marriage. And the joke is be in a mixed marriage. And the joke is the mixed marriage is I'm technical and the mixed marriage is I'm technical and the mixed marriage is I'm technical and she's not. Is two technical people in a she's not. Is two technical people in a she's not. Is two technical people in a relationship challenging? Do you chat relationship challenging? Do you chat relationship challenging? Do you chat about computer stuff, or do you just about computer stuff, or do you just about computer stuff, or do you just keep that part of the relationship keep that part of the relationship keep that part of the relationship separate? Well, I think we you could separate? Well, I think we you could separate? Well, I think we you could safely say that we chat about it. I safely say that we chat about it. I safely say that we chat about it. I mean, he's got his mean, he's got his mean, he's got his stuff that he does. He's basically a stuff that he does. He's basically a stuff that he does. He's basically a file systems guy. Yeah. And I don't do file systems guy. Yeah. And I don't do file systems guy. Yeah. And I don't do file systems.

file systems. file systems. But, you know, he doesn't do email, so. But, you know, he doesn't do email, so. But, you know, he doesn't do email, so. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Actually, I don't do much email anymore >> Actually, I don't do much email anymore >> Actually, I don't do much email anymore other than other than other than >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. getting far too much of it and so forth. getting far too much of it and so forth. getting far too much of it and so forth. I use it. Yeah. But, I'm out of the I use it. Yeah. But, I'm out of the I use it. Yeah. But, I'm out of the development cycle now. And in fact, development cycle now. And in fact, development cycle now. And in fact, my main gig is my main gig is my main gig is um a 501c3 that I helped found called um a 501c3 that I helped found called um a 501c3 that I helped found called the Berkeley Historic Building Fund. the Berkeley Historic Building Fund. the Berkeley Historic Building Fund. Mhm. And we raise funds for preservation Mhm. And we raise funds for preservation Mhm. And we raise funds for preservation of historic buildings starting with the of historic buildings starting with the of historic buildings starting with the Hillside Club, which is just up the Hillside Club, which is just up the Hillside Club, which is just up the street from me. That's fantastic. Is street from me. That's fantastic. Is street from me. That's fantastic. Is that Is that amazing though to let go of that Is that amazing though to let go of that Is that amazing though to let go of so much computing? I'm just really as I so much computing? I'm just really as I so much computing? I'm just really as I start thinking about when I'm going to start thinking about when I'm going to start thinking about when I'm going to retire, retire, retire, do you just release it into the universe do you just release it into the universe do you just release it into the universe and you just to say, I'm just not up on and you just to say, I'm just not up on and you just to say, I'm just not up on the latest stuff? Or did you cling to the latest stuff? Or did you cling to the latest stuff? Or did you cling to trying to stay current and stay up to trying to stay current and stay up to trying to stay current and stay up to date? date? date? Well, Well, Well, I've got a I've got a I've got a um um um poor poor poor ability to concentrate, I guess you'd ability to concentrate, I guess you'd ability to concentrate, I guess you'd say. I've done many, many things. So, say. I've done many, many things. So, say. I've done many, many things. So, various stuff I've done. I started off various stuff I've done. I started off various stuff I've done. I started off really doing database systems.

really doing database systems. really doing database systems. And I was the lead programmer on the And I was the lead programmer on the And I was the lead programmer on the Ingres project at UC Berkeley. That was Ingres project at UC Berkeley. That was Ingres project at UC Berkeley. That was my first university job. Mhm. my first university job. Mhm. my first university job. Mhm. And uh And uh And uh I've done I've done I've done sort of user interfaces to database sort of user interfaces to database sort of user interfaces to database systems, systems, systems, which which which I think I overreached for the ability of I think I overreached for the ability of I think I overreached for the ability of the technology to support it at the the technology to support it at the the technology to support it at the time. time. time. So, that one So, that one So, that one never got out as a product. never got out as a product. never got out as a product. And And And I worked on neural networks at I worked on neural networks at I worked on neural networks at International Computer Science Institute International Computer Science Institute International Computer Science Institute for a while. for a while. for a while. So, that's basically the same technology So, that's basically the same technology So, that's basically the same technology behind all the AI you see today, but behind all the AI you see today, but behind all the AI you see today, but back then, back then, back then, you know, a megaflop was really, really, you know, a megaflop was really, really, you know, a megaflop was really, really, really fast machine. And now it's like really fast machine. And now it's like really fast machine. And now it's like they're gigaflops. they're gigaflops. they're gigaflops. Um, so that one we got some interesting Um, so that one we got some interesting Um, so that one we got some interesting papers out of it. It was an academic papers out of it. It was an academic papers out of it. It was an academic organization, but organization, but organization, but we never the goal was we never the goal was we never the goal was continuous speaker independent continuous speaker independent continuous speaker independent um um um speaker recogni- speak- speech speaker recogni- speak- speech speaker recogni- speak- speech recognition. Mhm.

And we never really got that to the And we never really got that to the point where it worked to our point where it worked to our point where it worked to our satisfaction. Now, of course, you know, satisfaction. Now, of course, you know, satisfaction. Now, of course, you know, my phone can do it. my phone can do it. my phone can do it. What does that feel like? Because I feel What does that feel like? Because I feel What does that feel like? Because I feel like I can see so much history, and I've like I can see so much history, and I've like I can see so much history, and I've only been doing this 35 years, only been doing this 35 years, only been doing this 35 years, to to to to be sitting at the tail end of this to be sitting at the tail end of this to be sitting at the tail end of this and go, "Wow, we really built a deep and go, "Wow, we really built a deep and go, "Wow, we really built a deep stack of stuff." Like we're we're stack of stuff." Like we're we're stack of stuff." Like we're we're teeter-tottering at the top of this teeter-tottering at the top of this teeter-tottering at the top of this pyramid of all the different protocols pyramid of all the different protocols pyramid of all the different protocols that came before us. And all the pieces that came before us. And all the pieces that came before us. And all the pieces and each, you know, each additional and each, you know, each additional and each, you know, each additional layer of abstraction is layer of abstraction is layer of abstraction is indistinguishable from magic. indistinguishable from magic. indistinguishable from magic. And now I've got this pocket And now I've got this pocket And now I've got this pocket supercomputer that can recognize my supercomputer that can recognize my supercomputer that can recognize my voice and do stuff. Yeah. voice and do stuff. Yeah. voice and do stuff. Yeah. Well, Well, Well, I actually started I actually started I actually started on the ARPANET. Mhm. And on the ARPANET. Mhm. And on the ARPANET. Mhm. And that was a very different network. They that was a very different network. They that was a very different network. They only felt they needed 8-bit host only felt they needed 8-bit host only felt they needed 8-bit host addresses. addresses. addresses. Should be enough for everyone. Enough Should be enough for everyone. Enough Should be enough for everyone. Enough Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. And And And what was it?

what was it? what was it? Thomas Watson, I think, said the mark Thomas Watson, I think, said the mark Thomas Watson, I think, said the mark international market for computers is international market for computers is international market for computers is going to be about 100. Yeah. going to be about 100. Yeah. going to be about 100. Yeah. Just be a mainframe on each in each Just be a mainframe on each in each Just be a mainframe on each in each country, and that would be it. Each country, and that would be it. Each country, and that would be it. Each country would have their own mainframe, country would have their own mainframe, country would have their own mainframe, and maybe one per continent. Should be and maybe one per continent. Should be and maybe one per continent. Should be should be fine for everyone. Yeah. should be fine for everyone. Yeah. should be fine for everyone. Yeah. And And And so, I've seen a lot of stuff happen. so, I've seen a lot of stuff happen. so, I've seen a lot of stuff happen. It's been kind of interesting. It's It's been kind of interesting. It's It's been kind of interesting. It's you know, when the network first you know, when the network first you know, when the network first appeared, we appeared, we appeared, we I think had this fantasy that I think had this fantasy that I think had this fantasy that we were going to we were going to we were going to you know, bring understanding to the you know, bring understanding to the you know, bring understanding to the world. When everyone could communicate world. When everyone could communicate world. When everyone could communicate with everyone else, then, you know, wars with everyone else, then, you know, wars with everyone else, then, you know, wars would be gone and would be gone and would be gone and so forth and so on. We really so forth and so on. We really so forth and so on. We really had a concept that this is going to be a had a concept that this is going to be a had a concept that this is going to be a utopian future. Now that it's the utopian future. Now that it's the utopian future. Now that it's the future, I don't think it looks quite as future, I don't think it looks quite as future, I don't think it looks quite as utopian as we used to think it would be. utopian as we used to think it would be. utopian as we used to think it would be. So, that's kind of disap- So, that's kind of disap- So, that's kind of disap- It is disappointing. It does feel like It is disappointing. It does feel like It is disappointing. It does feel like eternal September. It really is kind of eternal September. It really is kind of eternal September. It really is kind of eternal at this point. There was a eternal at this point. There was a eternal at this point. There was a smaller kind of feeling of of of smaller kind of feeling of of of smaller kind of feeling of of of community and neighborhood in the early community and neighborhood in the early community and neighborhood in the early days when I first got online in in the days when I first got online in in the days when I first got online in in the late '80s, mid-'80s, late '80s. It just late '80s, mid-'80s, late '80s. It just late '80s, mid-'80s, late '80s. It just felt like there was maybe a couple of felt like there was maybe a couple of felt like there was maybe a couple of thousand of us, and we were all pretty thousand of us, and we were all pretty thousand of us, and we were all pretty pleasant.

pleasant. pleasant. And now it seems somewhat chaotic. I And now it seems somewhat chaotic. I And now it seems somewhat chaotic. I actually have a actually have a actually have a a book in the other room, which was a book in the other room, which was a book in the other room, which was essentially a phone book for essentially a phone book for essentially a phone book for the ARPANET {slash} early days of the the ARPANET {slash} early days of the the ARPANET {slash} early days of the internet with the name, address, and internet with the name, address, and internet with the name, address, and phone number of every user on the phone number of every user on the phone number of every user on the network. network. network. And I'm in it. Yeah. And I'm in it. Yeah. And I'm in it. Yeah. I I had a FidoNet node for a time that I I I had a FidoNet node for a time that I I I had a FidoNet node for a time that I ran in my bulletin board, and I was, you ran in my bulletin board, and I was, you ran in my bulletin board, and I was, you know, making local phone calls trying to know, making local phone calls trying to know, making local phone calls trying to not pay long-distance phone calls and not pay long-distance phone calls and not pay long-distance phone calls and bouncing internet bouncing email rather bouncing internet bouncing email rather bouncing internet bouncing email rather around or fido net mail at least around or fido net mail at least around or fido net mail at least for a time and I I had a for a time and I I had a for a time and I I had a spiral notebook with kind of the 30 or spiral notebook with kind of the 30 or spiral notebook with kind of the 30 or 40 folks that I knew around. It felt 40 folks that I knew around. It felt 40 folks that I knew around. It felt like the ham it was like ham radio, you like the ham it was like ham radio, you like the ham it was like ham radio, you know, it was very small. know, it was very small. know, it was very small. Yeah, I guess ham radio still is. Yeah, I guess ham radio still is. Yeah, I guess ham radio still is. Yeah, I guess it's well cuz it's hard. Yeah, I guess it's well cuz it's hard. Yeah, I guess it's well cuz it's hard. You got to get a license which is an You got to get a license which is an You got to get a license which is an interesting idea in fact maybe they interesting idea in fact maybe they interesting idea in fact maybe they should have given us a license to make should have given us a license to make should have given us a license to make to send email. That to send email. That to send email. That would have solved a lot of problems.

would have solved a lot of problems. would have solved a lot of problems. Yeah, indeed. Yeah, indeed. Yeah, indeed. You weren't were you thinking planetary You weren't were you thinking planetary You weren't were you thinking planetary scale when you're building these systems scale when you're building these systems scale when you're building these systems when you and your compatriots were doing when you and your compatriots were doing when you and your compatriots were doing things like sending mail? I mean email things like sending mail? I mean email things like sending mail? I mean email is kind of the original open adversarial is kind of the original open adversarial is kind of the original open adversarial system. It's open. It's Federated. It's system. It's open. It's Federated. It's system. It's open. It's Federated. It's effectively unauthenticated at least it effectively unauthenticated at least it effectively unauthenticated at least it was at the time. was at the time. was at the time. But it's also constantly attacked and But it's also constantly attacked and But it's also constantly attacked and you know, I'm curious. you know, I'm curious. you know, I'm curious. Were you thinking this is for everyone Were you thinking this is for everyone Were you thinking this is for everyone for the world right now or are you just for the world right now or are you just for the world right now or are you just building it for you and your your building it for you and your your building it for you and your your friends? So there was already network friends? So there was already network friends? So there was already network known as UUCP. Right. known as UUCP. Right. known as UUCP. Right. And that was, you know, dial-up modems. And that was, you know, dial-up modems. And that was, you know, dial-up modems. And it turns out that I know the guy who And it turns out that I know the guy who And it turns out that I know the guy who first brought UUCP to Japan. I know the first brought UUCP to Japan. I know the first brought UUCP to Japan. I know the guy who brought the first UUCP to guy who brought the first UUCP to guy who brought the first UUCP to Europe. Europe. Europe. And so And so And so and Australia actually. Is that is that and Australia actually. Is that is that and Australia actually. Is that is that Mike Lesk? Mike Lesk? Mike Lesk? No. No, Tushar in the Netherlands No. No, Tushar in the Netherlands No. No, Tushar in the Netherlands Robert Els in Australia and Robert Els in Australia and Robert Els in Australia and why am I blanking on his name in Japan?

why am I blanking on his name in Japan? why am I blanking on his name in Japan? Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Um Um Um anyway anyway anyway the point is we yes, we were very early the point is we yes, we were very early the point is we yes, we were very early on thinking there's no particular reason on thinking there's no particular reason on thinking there's no particular reason why why why this can't be an international thing. this can't be an international thing. this can't be an international thing. Which is I think part of the reason we Which is I think part of the reason we Which is I think part of the reason we really thought it was going to make the really thought it was going to make the really thought it was going to make the world a smaller place and everyone would world a smaller place and everyone would world a smaller place and everyone would discover that we're just people and discover that we're just people and discover that we're just people and so forth like I said fantasies. so forth like I said fantasies. so forth like I said fantasies. Did it send mail somewhat famous for Did it send mail somewhat famous for Did it send mail somewhat famous for being extremely configurable being extremely configurable being extremely configurable maybe a little complexity crept in there maybe a little complexity crept in there maybe a little complexity crept in there over over time. Do you see any parallels over over time. Do you see any parallels over over time. Do you see any parallels between between between sendmail and sending mail and the kind sendmail and sending mail and the kind sendmail and sending mail and the kind of you know, retries and queues and of you know, retries and queues and of you know, retries and queues and store and forward and then what we're store and forward and then what we're store and forward and then what we're seeing in agents and things like that in seeing in agents and things like that in seeing in agents and things like that in AI. Do you think at all about how we're AI. Do you think at all about how we're AI. Do you think at all about how we're all just building the same thing over all just building the same thing over all just building the same thing over again just a different in a different again just a different in a different again just a different in a different font? font? font? Um Um Um actually I hadn't thought about the actually I hadn't thought about the actually I hadn't thought about the comparison to AI and I probably should comparison to AI and I probably should comparison to AI and I probably should have have have because because because the reason sendmail is so configurable the reason sendmail is so configurable the reason sendmail is so configurable is because it started before the is because it started before the is because it started before the internet.

internet. internet. And so I was trying to get the local And so I was trying to get the local And so I was trying to get the local network at Berkeley which is called network at Berkeley which is called network at Berkeley which is called creatively enough BerkNet creatively enough BerkNet creatively enough BerkNet and UUCP and the ARPANET and so forth to and UUCP and the ARPANET and so forth to and UUCP and the ARPANET and so forth to talk to each other and they all had talk to each other and they all had talk to each other and they all had different address syntaxes and different address syntaxes and different address syntaxes and different semantics and so forth. So different semantics and so forth. So different semantics and so forth. So sendmail was designed to be the glue sendmail was designed to be the glue sendmail was designed to be the glue that would hold them together. that would hold them together. that would hold them together. And I had taken an AI course and And I had taken an AI course and And I had taken an AI course and one of the things we talked about was one of the things we talked about was one of the things we talked about was production systems and I said, you know production systems and I said, you know production systems and I said, you know I know AI is maybe overkill for I know AI is maybe overkill for I know AI is maybe overkill for an email program but an email program but an email program but production system looks like it fits production system looks like it fits production system looks like it fits really very nicely. really very nicely. really very nicely. And in fact that's the core of the And in fact that's the core of the And in fact that's the core of the sendmail configuration file. So it's sendmail configuration file. So it's sendmail configuration file. So it's been proven that it's Turing complete been proven that it's Turing complete been proven that it's Turing complete which probably doesn't need to happen. which probably doesn't need to happen. which probably doesn't need to happen. And the truth is it's And the truth is it's And the truth is it's I mean the world pretty much agrees now I mean the world pretty much agrees now I mean the world pretty much agrees now that everything should be user at sign that everything should be user at sign that everything should be user at sign domain.

domain. domain. And nobody uses host bang host bang user And nobody uses host bang host bang user And nobody uses host bang host bang user or or or um you know um you know um you know host colon colon user or any of those host colon colon user or any of those host colon colon user or any of those others. others. others. So So So yeah, I was basically setting up yeah, I was basically setting up yeah, I was basically setting up something where you could use the something where you could use the something where you could use the effectively an AI technique to effectively an AI technique to effectively an AI technique to um route email. um route email. um route email. And um And um And um but it hadn't occurred to me anything but it hadn't occurred to me anything but it hadn't occurred to me anything comparing it to large language models. comparing it to large language models. comparing it to large language models. Yeah. [snorts] Yeah. [snorts] Yeah. [snorts] What's what do you think is a design What's what do you think is a design What's what do you think is a design decision in sendmail that may have aged decision in sendmail that may have aged decision in sendmail that may have aged better than you expected? Like you know, better than you expected? Like you know, better than you expected? Like you know, you don't really know if these things you don't really know if these things you don't really know if these things are going to be extensible if they're are going to be extensible if they're are going to be extensible if they're going to hit some kind of a design wall going to hit some kind of a design wall going to hit some kind of a design wall but looking back is there some but looking back is there some but looking back is there some particular design decision that maybe particular design decision that maybe particular design decision that maybe aged quite well? aged quite well? aged quite well? Well Well Well I mean there was I mean there was I mean there was a couple of things that I did kind of on a couple of things that I did kind of on a couple of things that I did kind of on the side the side the side not as well known as not as well known as not as well known as my as my background with sendmail is my as my background with sendmail is my as my background with sendmail is that I also did the first implementation that I also did the first implementation that I also did the first implementation of syslog. Mhm. And I did that as a tool of syslog. Mhm. And I did that as a tool of syslog. Mhm. And I did that as a tool to use for to use for to use for delivermail the predecessor to sendmail.

delivermail the predecessor to sendmail. delivermail the predecessor to sendmail. And at the time we didn't And at the time we didn't And at the time we didn't [clears throat] have interprocess [clears throat] have interprocess [clears throat] have interprocess communication and so forth. So I had to communication and so forth. So I had to communication and so forth. So I had to use things called MPX files. use things called MPX files. use things called MPX files. And then you know, the And then you know, the And then you know, the IPC came along and I converted it to use IPC came along and I converted it to use IPC came along and I converted it to use the new technology and so forth. the new technology and so forth. the new technology and so forth. That's That's That's proven to have real legs. proven to have real legs. proven to have real legs. Um I mean there's dozens of Um I mean there's dozens of Um I mean there's dozens of implementations of syslog all basically implementations of syslog all basically implementations of syslog all basically at their core the same thing that I did at their core the same thing that I did at their core the same thing that I did as part of the implementing sendmail. as part of the implementing sendmail. as part of the implementing sendmail. Yeah, that's a great point. I mean sys Yeah, that's a great point. I mean sys Yeah, that's a great point. I mean sys syslog syslogd this is these are syslog syslogd this is these are syslog syslogd this is these are something that is keeping track of something that is keeping track of something that is keeping track of everything for the last what now? 20 50 everything for the last what now? 20 50 everything for the last what now? 20 50 years 60 years. And and now on top of years 60 years. And and now on top of years 60 years. And and now on top of that we have new ideas like open that we have new ideas like open that we have new ideas like open telemetry. telemetry. telemetry. And I'm seeing people shuttle their logs And I'm seeing people shuttle their logs And I'm seeing people shuttle their logs around with things like that. That seems around with things like that. That seems around with things like that. That seems like a pretty pretty successful project. like a pretty pretty successful project. like a pretty pretty successful project. Yeah, well it was you know, it wasn't a Yeah, well it was you know, it wasn't a Yeah, well it was you know, it wasn't a project in and of itself. It was really project in and of itself. It was really project in and of itself. It was really just part of a much larger but just part of a much larger but just part of a much larger but and I'm just thinking if there's and I'm just thinking if there's and I'm just thinking if there's anything else anything else anything else I mean I mean I mean to be perfectly honest the to be perfectly honest the to be perfectly honest the the sendmail rewriting rules which are the sendmail rewriting rules which are the sendmail rewriting rules which are the things that people complain about the things that people complain about the things that people complain about the most cuz they're big and the most cuz they're big and the most cuz they're big and complicated. Yeah. I totally understand complicated. Yeah. I totally understand complicated. Yeah. I totally understand them.

them. them. But that was very successful because it But that was very successful because it But that was very successful because it made sendmail be the glue that could made sendmail be the glue that could made sendmail be the glue that could hold hold hold the universe together as it was still in the universe together as it was still in the universe together as it was still in this nebulous state and you know, still this nebulous state and you know, still this nebulous state and you know, still you know, astral cloud as opposed to a you know, astral cloud as opposed to a you know, astral cloud as opposed to a solid planet. solid planet. solid planet. And um And um And um so I think the uptake of email would so I think the uptake of email would so I think the uptake of email would have been much slower if people had been have been much slower if people had been have been much slower if people had been stuck with stuck with stuck with sitting in these these pools that didn't sitting in these these pools that didn't sitting in these these pools that didn't talk to each other. Yeah. And the the talk to each other. Yeah. And the the talk to each other. Yeah. And the the fact that they were recursively applied fact that they were recursively applied fact that they were recursively applied that sendmail rules are recursively that sendmail rules are recursively that sendmail rules are recursively applied I think some people have found applied I think some people have found applied I think some people have found that to be somewhat mysterious and that to be somewhat mysterious and that to be somewhat mysterious and frustrating but that's kind of the frustrating but that's kind of the frustrating but that's kind of the genius of it. genius of it. genius of it. Yeah, I mean Yeah, I mean Yeah, I mean you can you can you can use recursion but it's not necessarily use recursion but it's not necessarily use recursion but it's not necessarily the the the necessary in order to do the job. Okay. necessary in order to do the job. Okay. necessary in order to do the job. Okay. But that level of flexibility was kind But that level of flexibility was kind But that level of flexibility was kind of the secret sauce.

of the secret sauce. of the secret sauce. Yeah, it was also Yeah, it was also Yeah, it was also part of the thing that made it sometimes part of the thing that made it sometimes part of the thing that made it sometimes really challenging to debug but Have you Have you >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> have you said that you were doing AI >> have you said that you were doing AI >> have you said that you were doing AI like AI had a moment and I think AI has like AI had a moment and I think AI has like AI had a moment and I think AI has had a branding moment but you were had a branding moment but you were had a branding moment but you were thinking about AI and your compatriots thinking about AI and your compatriots thinking about AI and your compatriots and your peers in the space were and your peers in the space were and your peers in the space were thinking about AI a very very long time thinking about AI a very very long time thinking about AI a very very long time ago. Did you all in the creating and ago. Did you all in the creating and ago. Did you all in the creating and thinking about neural networks see thinking about neural networks see thinking about neural networks see transformers and transformers and transformers and generative pre-trained transformers like generative pre-trained transformers like generative pre-trained transformers like coming? Was this a inevitable thing that coming? Was this a inevitable thing that coming? Was this a inevitable thing that would hit the hockey stick and then would hit the hockey stick and then would hit the hockey stick and then take off or did you kind of like wake up take off or did you kind of like wake up take off or did you kind of like wake up when chat GPT happened and said, oh when chat GPT happened and said, oh when chat GPT happened and said, oh crap. They they they did it. More of the crap. They they they did it. More of the crap. They they they did it. More of the latter. latter. latter. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> You know, when we were doing it we were >> You know, when we were doing it we were >> You know, when we were doing it we were just trying to get it to run fast enough just trying to get it to run fast enough just trying to get it to run fast enough to to implement a relatively small to to implement a relatively small to to implement a relatively small neural network. Mhm. And we weren't neural network. Mhm. And we weren't neural network. Mhm. And we weren't using AI in general. I don't think we using AI in general. I don't think we using AI in general. I don't think we even ever called it AI. It was just even ever called it AI. It was just even ever called it AI. It was just neural networks. Right.

neural networks. Right. neural networks. Right. Um Um Um you know, a name that seems to have gone you know, a name that seems to have gone you know, a name that seems to have gone out of favor but out of favor but out of favor but still there at the core. still there at the core. still there at the core. Don't you The you know, the new models Don't you The you know, the new models Don't you The you know, the new models are so much more sophisticated. They've are so much more sophisticated. They've are so much more sophisticated. They've got call outs to engines that are not got call outs to engines that are not got call outs to engines that are not you know, stochastic parrots you know, stochastic parrots you know, stochastic parrots and so forth. So I've actually started and so forth. So I've actually started and so forth. So I've actually started playing with Claude to do some coding playing with Claude to do some coding playing with Claude to do some coding stuff. I do still code some at home. stuff. I do still code some at home. stuff. I do still code some at home. Yeah. And it's really stunning. Yeah. And it's really stunning. Yeah. And it's really stunning. Um the thing that really Um the thing that really Um the thing that really became clear to me is you know, I can only absorb so much you know, I can only absorb so much stuff in my head stuff in my head stuff in my head and asking Claude to do these things it and asking Claude to do these things it and asking Claude to do these things it said, oh yes, there's a already a said, oh yes, there's a already a said, oh yes, there's a already a library to do that. library to do that. library to do that. Here's how to use it. It's like I've Here's how to use it. It's like I've Here's how to use it. It's like I've never heard of that library before and never heard of that library before and never heard of that library before and you're right. It does exactly what I you're right. It does exactly what I you're right. It does exactly what I need. need. need. So that alone So that alone So that alone you know, has me as a bit of a fanboy you know, has me as a bit of a fanboy you know, has me as a bit of a fanboy these days.

these days. these days. It is extraordinary. I feel like Opus It is extraordinary. I feel like Opus It is extraordinary. I feel like Opus last October kind of was the moment and last October kind of was the moment and last October kind of was the moment and you know, Claude Opus is an you know, Claude Opus is an you know, Claude Opus is an extraordinary extraordinary extraordinary extraordinary model. And I kind of go extraordinary model. And I kind of go extraordinary model. And I kind of go back and forth back and forth back and forth and I get a little bit of an analysis and I get a little bit of an analysis and I get a little bit of an analysis paralysis because I think to myself paralysis because I think to myself paralysis because I think to myself maybe I'm a stochastic parrot and maybe maybe I'm a stochastic parrot and maybe maybe I'm a stochastic parrot and maybe what I'm about to say to you is the what I'm about to say to you is the what I'm about to say to you is the statistically most likely next token statistically most likely next token statistically most likely next token based on the last 50 years of my based on the last 50 years of my based on the last 50 years of my uh my life in the big in the context uh my life in the big in the context uh my life in the big in the context window that I carry around with me, window that I carry around with me, window that I carry around with me, maybe I'm just saying the next obvious maybe I'm just saying the next obvious maybe I'm just saying the next obvious thing. So, then you get all in your head thing. So, then you get all in your head thing. So, then you get all in your head about are they parrots and they're just about are they parrots and they're just about are they parrots and they're just saying code cuz they've seen code, or is saying code cuz they've seen code, or is saying code cuz they've seen code, or is there more there? Cuz I like the there more there? Cuz I like the there more there? Cuz I like the stochastic parrot like analogy. I think stochastic parrot like analogy. I think stochastic parrot like analogy. I think it is a a a good one because I refuse to it is a a a good one because I refuse to it is a a a good one because I refuse to believe that it believe that it believe that it is in any way conscious or is in any way conscious or is in any way conscious or or creative. or creative. or creative. Yeah, I Yeah, I Yeah, I I mean, here we start getting into the I mean, here we start getting into the I mean, here we start getting into the realm of philosophy as opposed to realm of philosophy as opposed to realm of philosophy as opposed to computer science. You know, what is computer science. You know, what is computer science. You know, what is consciousness anyway? consciousness anyway? consciousness anyway? And And And >> you're qualified to have an opinion, >> you're qualified to have an opinion, >> you're qualified to have an opinion, though. I'm qualified to have an though. I'm qualified to have an though. I'm qualified to have an opinion, but it's just my opinion, and opinion, but it's just my opinion, and opinion, but it's just my opinion, and hence it's worth the price you paid for hence it's worth the price you paid for hence it's worth the price you paid for it.

it. it. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> I'll I will take it, though. >> I'll I will take it, though. >> I'll I will take it, though. No, I So, it certainly So, it certainly presents as though it's presents as though it's presents as though it's as though it's as though it's as though it's got some kind of consciousness. It got some kind of consciousness. It got some kind of consciousness. It carries on a discussion with you and so carries on a discussion with you and so carries on a discussion with you and so forth, but forth, but forth, but for example, um I've had cases where, for example, um I've had cases where, for example, um I've had cases where, you know, Claude will say, you know, Claude will say, you know, Claude will say, "Oh, you know, to fix that bug, you do "Oh, you know, to fix that bug, you do "Oh, you know, to fix that bug, you do this." this." this." And then there's something else, and And then there's something else, and And then there's something else, and Claude fixes that, but puts the other Claude fixes that, but puts the other Claude fixes that, but puts the other bug back in. bug back in. bug back in. And And And I don't think that it exhibits as I don't think that it exhibits as I don't think that it exhibits as consciousness. consciousness. consciousness. You know, it's Claude is You know, it's Claude is You know, it's Claude is very helpful as long as you use it very helpful as long as you use it very helpful as long as you use it effectively, but I can't see doing vibe effectively, but I can't see doing vibe effectively, but I can't see doing vibe coding where you just say, "Here, you coding where you just say, "Here, you coding where you just say, "Here, you know, know, know, throw me some code. I'll test it and throw me some code. I'll test it and throw me some code. I'll test it and tell you if it works or not, and if it tell you if it works or not, and if it tell you if it works or not, and if it doesn't, try again." Yeah. doesn't, try again." Yeah. doesn't, try again." Yeah. It is so funny, though, that we made It is so funny, though, that we made It is so funny, though, that we made programming languages and syntax, and uh programming languages and syntax, and uh programming languages and syntax, and uh we we we we worked so hard to make it to we we we we worked so hard to make it to we we we we worked so hard to make it to make ourselves able to express our make ourselves able to express our make ourselves able to express our intent clearly and unambiguously to the intent clearly and unambiguously to the intent clearly and unambiguously to the computer.

computer. computer. And now we've created the prose And now we've created the prose And now we've created the prose compiler, where one can just talk in compiler, where one can just talk in compiler, where one can just talk in English or any language. English or any language. English or any language. But if there is a lack of clarity, it But if there is a lack of clarity, it But if there is a lack of clarity, it will fill that lack of clarity with the will fill that lack of clarity with the will fill that lack of clarity with the statistical mean or just randomness. statistical mean or just randomness. statistical mean or just randomness. It'll come up with something. It'll vibe It'll come up with something. It'll vibe It'll come up with something. It'll vibe it. it. it. And uh and then we are frustrated when And uh and then we are frustrated when And uh and then we are frustrated when it doesn't work out because we were we it doesn't work out because we were we it doesn't work out because we were we not clear, or was it that it filled our not clear, or was it that it filled our not clear, or was it that it filled our lack of clarity with its lack of clarity with its lack of clarity with its with its randomness? And then I kind of with its randomness? And then I kind of with its randomness? And then I kind of waffle back and forth between waffle back and forth between waffle back and forth between I don't want to remember all the I don't want to remember all the I don't want to remember all the details, and I don't want to type all details, and I don't want to type all details, and I don't want to type all the stuff. This is It's still fun. It's the stuff. This is It's still fun. It's the stuff. This is It's still fun. It's still great, but it's still great, but it's still great, but it's it's it's it's frustrating. I waffle it's it's it's frustrating. I waffle it's it's it's frustrating. I waffle back and forth between love and hate back and forth between love and hate back and forth between love and hate for AI-assisted coding. I can certainly for AI-assisted coding. I can certainly for AI-assisted coding. I can certainly understand that. Sorry, I had a thought, but I've lost Sorry, I had a thought, but I've lost it. That's okay. If you get it back, you it. That's okay. If you get it back, you it. That's okay. If you get it back, you can interrupt. can interrupt. can interrupt. Do you Do you code primarily just for Do you Do you code primarily just for Do you Do you code primarily just for projects that that you have an idea and projects that that you have an idea and projects that that you have an idea and you think, "I'm going to code this" or you think, "I'm going to code this" or you think, "I'm going to code this" or do you like like you know, I know you do you like like you know, I know you do you like like you know, I know you have a garden. Do you like, "Oh, I'm have a garden. Do you like, "Oh, I'm have a garden. Do you like, "Oh, I'm going to code some some IoT Internet of going to code some some IoT Internet of going to code some some IoT Internet of Things for the garden"? Cuz I have all Things for the garden"? Cuz I have all Things for the garden"? Cuz I have all kinds of projects that I'm working on kinds of projects that I'm working on kinds of projects that I'm working on just to make the house run better.

just to make the house run better. just to make the house run better. Well, I think this counts as making the Well, I think this counts as making the Well, I think this counts as making the house run better. I mean, we house run better. I mean, we house run better. I mean, we Perk and I have a uh Perk and I have a uh Perk and I have a uh wine cellar. Mhm. And so at some point wine cellar. Mhm. And so at some point wine cellar. Mhm. And so at some point long time ago, I started keeping a long time ago, I started keeping a long time ago, I started keeping a database, which was just a flat file, database, which was just a flat file, database, which was just a flat file, you know, parsable, but flat file. Mhm. you know, parsable, but flat file. Mhm. you know, parsable, but flat file. Mhm. And at some point I went, And at some point I went, And at some point I went, "I want something fancier." So, I built "I want something fancier." So, I built "I want something fancier." So, I built myself a wine database with a GUI myself a wine database with a GUI myself a wine database with a GUI interface and so forth and so on. interface and so forth and so on. interface and so forth and so on. And, you know, periodically we want to And, you know, periodically we want to And, you know, periodically we want to tweak that. tweak that. tweak that. So, there's that. There's some home So, there's that. There's some home So, there's that. There's some home automation automation automation things which involve code. I find myself things which involve code. I find myself things which involve code. I find myself writing, writing, writing, you know, in C++ for the Arduino, and you know, in C++ for the Arduino, and you know, in C++ for the Arduino, and usually usually usually uh uh uh some other higher-level language some other higher-level language some other higher-level language uh for uh for uh for general coding, stuff that's going to general coding, stuff that's going to general coding, stuff that's going to run on my server and run on my server and run on my server and what not. I use MQTT a lot for getting what not. I use MQTT a lot for getting what not. I use MQTT a lot for getting data around, so things don't have to be data around, so things don't have to be data around, so things don't have to be all on one piece of hardware. You can all on one piece of hardware. You can all on one piece of hardware. You can just talk to the broker and get what you just talk to the broker and get what you just talk to the broker and get what you need.

need. need. So, you know, Python has been So, you know, Python has been So, you know, Python has been probably my most common language, even probably my most common language, even probably my most common language, even more so than C, one which is a little more so than C, one which is a little more so than C, one which is a little shocking cuz I was a dedicated C shocking cuz I was a dedicated C shocking cuz I was a dedicated C programmer for most of my career. programmer for most of my career. programmer for most of my career. It is surprising. I have I'm a C# It is surprising. I have I'm a C# It is surprising. I have I'm a C# programmer, but ultimately any any any programmer, but ultimately any any any programmer, but ultimately any any any curly brace in a storm, you know, curly brace in a storm, you know, curly brace in a storm, you know, honestly. Uh honestly. Uh honestly. Uh I think we could probably argue about I think we could probably argue about I think we could probably argue about whether we should use the the almond whether we should use the the almond whether we should use the the almond indent style or whether, you know, indent style or whether, you know, indent style or whether, you know, what's the correct way to do indentation what's the correct way to do indentation what's the correct way to do indentation and do curly braces. But that's why I do and do curly braces. But that's why I do and do curly braces. But that's why I do C#, but I keep falling back into Python. C#, but I keep falling back into Python. C#, but I keep falling back into Python. It's just kind of simple and easy. And It's just kind of simple and easy. And It's just kind of simple and easy. And when I do my my home automation, even uh when I do my my home automation, even uh when I do my my home automation, even uh just as a point of note, I'm a type 1 just as a point of note, I'm a type 1 just as a point of note, I'm a type 1 diabetic, and I have an an insulin pump diabetic, and I have an an insulin pump diabetic, and I have an an insulin pump and a sensor, and it all kind of runs on and a sensor, and it all kind of runs on and a sensor, and it all kind of runs on Python, and I've got Python systems that Python, and I've got Python systems that Python, and I've got Python systems that will go and check my blood sugar and will go and check my blood sugar and will go and check my blood sugar and notify my wife and tell me if things are notify my wife and tell me if things are notify my wife and tell me if things are going to be okay. And certainly I could going to be okay. And certainly I could going to be okay. And certainly I could have done it in any of the have done it in any of the have done it in any of the curly brace C languages, but I keep curly brace C languages, but I keep curly brace C languages, but I keep falling back into Python these days. falling back into Python these days. falling back into Python these days. Well, Python's added enough Well, Python's added enough Well, Python's added enough uh uh uh basically a type system Mhm.

basically a type system Mhm. basically a type system Mhm. that it's that it's that it's becoming The problem with Python when becoming The problem with Python when becoming The problem with Python when it's in pure pure dynamic mode is you it's in pure pure dynamic mode is you it's in pure pure dynamic mode is you never know for sure whether your code's never know for sure whether your code's never know for sure whether your code's debugged or not. debugged or not. debugged or not. And you know, strong type system can And you know, strong type system can And you know, strong type system can really help that. really help that. really help that. So, I haven't really made the switch to So, I haven't really made the switch to So, I haven't really made the switch to typed Python. typed Python. typed Python. I I'm aware that it exists, but I I I'm aware that it exists, but I I I'm aware that it exists, but I haven't read up on it enough to know how haven't read up on it enough to know how haven't read up on it enough to know how to use it effectively. Yeah, the same to use it effectively. Yeah, the same to use it effectively. Yeah, the same thing of course happening in JavaScript thing of course happening in JavaScript thing of course happening in JavaScript with TypeScript, with TypeScript, with TypeScript, where you kind of go back and forth where you kind of go back and forth where you kind of go back and forth between how strongly typed is. There's between how strongly typed is. There's between how strongly typed is. There's kind of a slider bar of typedness and kind of a slider bar of typedness and kind of a slider bar of typedness and how much you want to care as you move how much you want to care as you move how much you want to care as you move from JavaScript to TypeScript. from JavaScript to TypeScript. from JavaScript to TypeScript. Yeah, the uh Yeah, the uh Yeah, the uh I've never been a JavaScript fan. Let's I've never been a JavaScript fan. Let's I've never been a JavaScript fan. Let's just put it that way. just put it that way. just put it that way. Well, so I've always felt like I I I Well, so I've always felt like I I I Well, so I've always felt like I I I like to joke that JavaScript is not the like to joke that JavaScript is not the like to joke that JavaScript is not the language that we deserve, uh but it is language that we deserve, uh but it is language that we deserve, uh but it is the one that was the one that was the one that was >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> that we have. So, it's an imperfect >> that we have. So, it's an imperfect >> that we have. So, it's an imperfect language, much like English, but it's language, much like English, but it's language, much like English, but it's the one that we're all speaking, the one that we're all speaking, the one that we're all speaking, unfortunately. unfortunately. unfortunately. Yeah, well, some of the type automatic Yeah, well, some of the type automatic Yeah, well, some of the type automatic type conversions between things that type conversions between things that type conversions between things that you know, they are strings, but they you know, they are strings, but they you know, they are strings, but they might be numbers. So, that was like, might be numbers. So, that was like, might be numbers. So, that was like, "Well, just, you know, "Well, just, you know, "Well, just, you know, oh, it's a number now."

oh, it's a number now." oh, it's a number now." And And And that's not what I always want. No, it's that's not what I always want. No, it's that's not what I always want. No, it's not. But yeah, so you might enjoy not. But yeah, so you might enjoy not. But yeah, so you might enjoy TypeScript. TypeScript would basic Cuz TypeScript. TypeScript would basic Cuz TypeScript. TypeScript would basic Cuz type TypeScript, of course, came from uh type TypeScript, of course, came from uh type TypeScript, of course, came from uh Anders Hejlsberg, who made, you know, Anders Hejlsberg, who made, you know, Anders Hejlsberg, who made, you know, Delphi, and he made C#. So, he was Delphi, and he made C#. So, he was Delphi, and he made C#. So, he was basically finding JavaScript equally basically finding JavaScript equally basically finding JavaScript equally objectionable as you are finding it, and objectionable as you are finding it, and objectionable as you are finding it, and said, "I What if I applied what we know said, "I What if I applied what we know said, "I What if I applied what we know about C# and strong typedness to to about C# and strong typedness to to about C# and strong typedness to to JavaScript?" And really locked it down. JavaScript?" And really locked it down. JavaScript?" And really locked it down. So, I think most of the JavaScript that So, I think most of the JavaScript that So, I think most of the JavaScript that people are writing these days has some people are writing these days has some people are writing these days has some some common sense typing, I I think. some common sense typing, I I think. some common sense typing, I I think. Well, thank goodness for that. Thank Well, thank goodness for that. Thank Well, thank goodness for that. Thank goodness for that, indeed, sir. goodness for that, indeed, sir. goodness for that, indeed, sir. What What What What have you What have you been doing What have you What have you been doing What have you What have you been doing over the last uh over the last uh over the last uh 5 or 10 years when it comes to uh 5 or 10 years when it comes to uh 5 or 10 years when it comes to uh coding and like your own learning? Do coding and like your own learning? Do coding and like your own learning? Do I'm just trying to plan for my, you I'm just trying to plan for my, you I'm just trying to plan for my, you know, the the remaining years of my my know, the the remaining years of my my know, the the remaining years of my my career, and I'm wondering, will I just career, and I'm wondering, will I just career, and I'm wondering, will I just become a tinkerer, or will I go back to become a tinkerer, or will I go back to become a tinkerer, or will I go back to school and and teach?

school and and teach? school and and teach? Like cuz I feel like I know a lot of Like cuz I feel like I know a lot of Like cuz I feel like I know a lot of stuff, and I want to share it with with stuff, and I want to share it with with stuff, and I want to share it with with folks. And I'm wondering, when you were folks. And I'm wondering, when you were folks. And I'm wondering, when you were doing your work in academia, if you doing your work in academia, if you doing your work in academia, if you found that to be really satisfying. found that to be really satisfying. found that to be really satisfying. Well, I do have to say the best part of Well, I do have to say the best part of Well, I do have to say the best part of my last job, working on a research my last job, working on a research my last job, working on a research project again, project again, project again, was the students. Mhm. was the students. Mhm. was the students. Mhm. You know, the students are just so You know, the students are just so You know, the students are just so bright and so creative and so forth. It bright and so creative and so forth. It bright and so creative and so forth. It definitely definitely definitely there was there was there was one of the students, one of the students, one of the students, he I usually came in in more in the he I usually came in in more in the he I usually came in in more in the morning. I'm more of a morning person, I morning. I'm more of a morning person, I morning. I'm more of a morning person, I guess. Mhm. And he would wander in guess. Mhm. And he would wander in guess. Mhm. And he would wander in around noon and immediately start around noon and immediately start around noon and immediately start talking with me about whatever it was he talking with me about whatever it was he talking with me about whatever it was he had been thinking about. And it's like had been thinking about. And it's like had been thinking about. And it's like half the time I didn't know what he was half the time I didn't know what he was half the time I didn't know what he was talking about, but talking about, but talking about, but uh it was so great being bombarded with uh it was so great being bombarded with uh it was so great being bombarded with this pretty much every day. this pretty much every day. this pretty much every day. So, So, So, uh I haven't uh I haven't uh I haven't been seriously trying to keep up on, you been seriously trying to keep up on, you been seriously trying to keep up on, you know, the absolute most current version know, the absolute most current version know, the absolute most current version of everything, partially because, you of everything, partially because, you of everything, partially because, you know, I'm traveling a lot more. Mhm. And know, I'm traveling a lot more. Mhm. And know, I'm traveling a lot more. Mhm. And um um um you know, that feels like too much work you know, that feels like too much work you know, that feels like too much work to be something you do on vacation.

to be something you do on vacation. to be something you do on vacation. Yeah, it's it's going to be fascinating. Yeah, it's it's going to be fascinating. Yeah, it's it's going to be fascinating. I I have a number of friends that are I I have a number of friends that are I I have a number of friends that are telling me that uh I'm fooling myself telling me that uh I'm fooling myself telling me that uh I'm fooling myself into saying that I will retire, and that into saying that I will retire, and that into saying that I will retire, and that I may fall in and out of retirement I may fall in and out of retirement I may fall in and out of retirement depending on what feeds my spirit and depending on what feeds my spirit and depending on what feeds my spirit and what works well for my family at the what works well for my family at the what works well for my family at the time. So, it's going to be interesting time. So, it's going to be interesting time. So, it's going to be interesting to see if I can rise to the challenge. to see if I can rise to the challenge. to see if I can rise to the challenge. Yeah, well, I actually did retire Yeah, well, I actually did retire Yeah, well, I actually did retire several years ago, or at least I thought several years ago, or at least I thought several years ago, or at least I thought I had retired. I had retired. I had retired. And um at some point got bored. And um at some point got bored. And um at some point got bored. And And And actually that was actually that was actually that was um um um right about the time I went back to the right about the time I went back to the right about the time I went back to the university. I got a call from somebody university. I got a call from somebody university. I got a call from somebody I'd worked with in the past who I'd worked with in the past who I'd worked with in the past who I really liked working with, and he I really liked working with, and he I really liked working with, and he called and said, "So, I'm working in a called and said, "So, I'm working in a called and said, "So, I'm working in a new lab up here on campus, and new lab up here on campus, and new lab up here on campus, and we've got seminars that you might find we've got seminars that you might find we've got seminars that you might find interesting, and oh by the way, free interesting, and oh by the way, free interesting, and oh by the way, free lunch." lunch." lunch." And [laughter] And [laughter] And [laughter] um um um so I started going to those and ended up so I started going to those and ended up so I started going to those and ended up hanging out in a research group, just, hanging out in a research group, just, hanging out in a research group, just, you know, they said, "Hang out if you you know, they said, "Hang out if you you know, they said, "Hang out if you want. Our meeting's right after the want. Our meeting's right after the want. Our meeting's right after the seminar."

seminar." seminar." And at some point they said, "You know, And at some point they said, "You know, And at some point they said, "You know, if you're going to be here this much, we if you're going to be here this much, we if you're going to be here this much, we really ought to pay you." really ought to pay you." really ought to pay you." And And And so that was the beginning of my last so that was the beginning of my last so that was the beginning of my last job. job. job. That's a pretty good gig. I mean, if you That's a pretty good gig. I mean, if you That's a pretty good gig. I mean, if you can get snacks and also be paid for it can get snacks and also be paid for it can get snacks and also be paid for it and you enjoy the work, that's kind of and you enjoy the work, that's kind of and you enjoy the work, that's kind of the optimal scenario. It It is kind of, the optimal scenario. It It is kind of, the optimal scenario. It It is kind of, yes. yes. yes. >> [laughter and gasps] >> [laughter and gasps] >> [laughter and gasps] >> Well, I I I I admire you very much. I >> Well, I I I I admire you very much. I >> Well, I I I I admire you very much. I think that I hope you appreciate how think that I hope you appreciate how think that I hope you appreciate how much the people in the circles that we much the people in the circles that we much the people in the circles that we run in appreciate you. run in appreciate you. run in appreciate you. You you know, of course were an ACM You you know, of course were an ACM You you know, of course were an ACM fellow. You've done a huge amount of fellow. You've done a huge amount of fellow. You've done a huge amount of work. Your sister is also well known, work. Your sister is also well known, work. Your sister is also well known, has been doing a lot of open source has been doing a lot of open source has been doing a lot of open source software since the '80s. I hope that you software since the '80s. I hope that you software since the '80s. I hope that you give her give her give her our best and also to your husband Kirk. our best and also to your husband Kirk. our best and also to your husband Kirk. We appreciate you all and the work that We appreciate you all and the work that We appreciate you all and the work that you've offered us over so many years. you've offered us over so many years. you've offered us over so many years. Thank you. I do find it amusing that Thank you. I do find it amusing that Thank you. I do find it amusing that you know, my husband, myself, and my you know, my husband, myself, and my you know, my husband, myself, and my sister all have Wikipedia pages. That's sister all have Wikipedia pages. That's sister all have Wikipedia pages. That's a kind of a pretty cool flex. I mean, a kind of a pretty cool flex. I mean, a kind of a pretty cool flex. I mean, you have to admit at Thanksgiving you have to admit at Thanksgiving you have to admit at Thanksgiving dinner, you know, the with the number of dinner, you know, the with the number of dinner, you know, the with the number of Wikipedia pages is probably three Wikipedia pages is probably three Wikipedia pages is probably three for a long for a long table.

for a long for a long table. for a long for a long table. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Is there anyone else we should know >> Is there anyone else we should know >> Is there anyone else we should know about with a Wikipedia page in the about with a Wikipedia page in the about with a Wikipedia page in the family? family? family? Not that I'm aware of. Well, they need Not that I'm aware of. Well, they need Not that I'm aware of. Well, they need to they need to get on your level and to they need to get on your level and to they need to get on your level and work a little harder then, don't they? work a little harder then, don't they? work a little harder then, don't they? >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Yeah, well, I have to admit I feel like >> Yeah, well, I have to admit I feel like >> Yeah, well, I have to admit I feel like I've played most of my career and not I've played most of my career and not I've played most of my career and not really worked much. And that is the goal really worked much. And that is the goal really worked much. And that is the goal and if you can say that with a straight and if you can say that with a straight and if you can say that with a straight face, then you have lived a blessed face, then you have lived a blessed face, then you have lived a blessed life, sir. life, sir. life, sir. Yeah, except for email standards. Yeah, except for email standards. Yeah, except for email standards. I was doing standards for a while and I was doing standards for a while and I was doing standards for a while and decided I really really did not like decided I really really did not like decided I really really did not like doing standards. That was doing standards. That was doing standards. That was >> Yeah. Standards committees are a lift. I >> Yeah. Standards committees are a lift. I >> Yeah. Standards committees are a lift. I will admit that is a challenge. Yeah. will admit that is a challenge. Yeah. will admit that is a challenge. Yeah. So, So, So, I I I retired from that, but not from my job retired from that, but not from my job retired from that, but not from my job at the time. at the time. at the time. Well, I thank you so much for spending Well, I thank you so much for spending Well, I thank you so much for spending time with us today and for chatting with time with us today and for chatting with time with us today and for chatting with me. It was very nice to meet you, sir. me. It was very nice to meet you, sir. me. It was very nice to meet you, sir. Very nice meeting you. Thank you. Very nice meeting you. Thank you. Very nice meeting you. Thank you. We've been chatting with Eric Allman. We've been chatting with Eric Allman. We've been chatting with Eric Allman. This episode of Hanselminutes is in This episode of Hanselminutes is in This episode of Hanselminutes is in association with the ACM Byte Cast and association with the ACM Byte Cast and association with the ACM Byte Cast and we'll see you again next week.