Community and content with Android Expert Madona Wambua

hi I'm Scott Hansel and this is another hi I'm Scott Hansel and this is another episode of Hansel minutes today I'm episode of Hansel minutes today I'm episode of Hansel minutes today I'm chatting with Madonna wambua she's the chatting with Madonna wambua she's the chatting with Madonna wambua she's the founder and CTO of jibu labs and now the founder and CTO of jibu labs and now the founder and CTO of jibu labs and now the chief technology officer at axist how chief technology officer at axist how chief technology officer at axist how are you I'm good how are you doing I'm are you I'm good how are you doing I'm are you I'm good how are you doing I'm very well thanks for hanging out with me very well thanks for hanging out with me very well thanks for hanging out with me today amazing so today amazing so today amazing so one of the things that you and I were one of the things that you and I were one of the things that you and I were talking about before we started the show talking about before we started the show talking about before we started the show as we always kind of have a little bit as we always kind of have a little bit as we always kind of have a little bit of a discussion in the green room is how of a discussion in the green room is how of a discussion in the green room is how things are changing and that's a thing things are changing and that's a thing things are changing and that's a thing that programmers who've been around a that programmers who've been around a that programmers who've been around a long time do I've been around for a long time do I've been around for a long time do I've been around for a minute you've been around for a minute minute you've been around for a minute minute you've been around for a minute and we go w kids these days or the and we go w kids these days or the and we go w kids these days or the situation these days yeah is it getting situation these days yeah is it getting situation these days yeah is it getting harder in Tech right now or are people harder in Tech right now or are people harder in Tech right now or are people tired wow that's such a great question I tired wow that's such a great question I tired wow that's such a great question I feel like it is getting difficult right feel like it is getting difficult right feel like it is getting difficult right now and people are tired now and people are tired now and people are tired and I think to me it's also the part and I think to me it's also the part and I think to me it's also the part where it's pretty exhausting right now where it's pretty exhausting right now where it's pretty exhausting right now to even find a job based on the layoffs to even find a job based on the layoffs to even find a job based on the layoffs that we seeing and it's also hard that we seeing and it's also hard that we seeing and it's also hard Breakin because nobody ever thought like Breakin because nobody ever thought like Breakin because nobody ever thought like big companies like Google and all the big companies like Google and all the big companies like Google and all the other big companies would actually be other big companies would actually be other big companies would actually be laying off so many people and now the laying off so many people and now the laying off so many people and now the market is scumbling with so many market is scumbling with so many market is scumbling with so many Engineers but we don't know where to go Engineers but we don't know where to go Engineers but we don't know where to go for instance I think I was selling you for instance I think I was selling you for instance I think I was selling you too in The Green Room somebody just sent too in The Green Room somebody just sent too in The Green Room somebody just sent me as I came here I request just help me as I came here I request just help me as I came here I request just help them connect with somebody so that they them connect with somebody so that they them connect with somebody so that they can get a job because they've been in can get a job because they've been in can get a job because they've been in the job market for so long so yeah it's the job market for so long so yeah it's the job market for so long so yeah it's really tough times I don't think I really tough times I don't think I really tough times I don't think I having the right word to say but yeah having the right word to say but yeah having the right word to say but yeah yeah but it's everyone is saying that yeah but it's everyone is saying that yeah but it's everyone is saying that there you know haven't we been hearing there you know haven't we been hearing there you know haven't we been hearing for the last 10 years that there's going for the last 10 years that there's going for the last 10 years that there's going to be a need for this many developers

to be a need for this many developers to be a need for this many developers they're always saying in the future they're always saying in the future they're always saying in the future we're going to need a million more we're going to need a million more we're going to need a million more developers you know we need to send kids developers you know we need to send kids developers you know we need to send kids into school to learn engineering I don't into school to learn engineering I don't into school to learn engineering I don't know what's going on is it a reset know what's going on is it a reset know what's going on is it a reset something's happening because I'm seeing something's happening because I'm seeing something's happening because I'm seeing a friend of mine said that their a friend of mine said that their a friend of mine said that their daughter was looking for an internship daughter was looking for an internship daughter was looking for an internship and was hundreds of applications and not and was hundreds of applications and not and was hundreds of applications and not getting any bites yeah it's it's pretty getting any bites yeah it's it's pretty getting any bites yeah it's it's pretty interesting and I'm wondering if it has interesting and I'm wondering if it has interesting and I'm wondering if it has to do with anything with the AI but I to do with anything with the AI but I to do with anything with the AI but I don't want to rush I don't think I'm don't want to rush I don't think I'm don't want to rush I don't think I'm ready to say that yet me too me too but ready to say that yet me too me too but ready to say that yet me too me too but I think we started seeing this in late I I think we started seeing this in late I I think we started seeing this in late I think early 2023 a lot and late think early 2023 a lot and late think early 2023 a lot and late 2022 and I'm really not sure what the 2022 and I'm really not sure what the 2022 and I'm really not sure what the shift was I mean I'm glad that never shift was I mean I'm glad that never shift was I mean I'm glad that never affected me but I also created my own affected me but I also created my own affected me but I also created my own company but many of my friends have been company but many of my friends have been company but many of my friends have been impacted like people I know have been impacted like people I know have been impacted like people I know have been impacted and people they know have been impacted and people they know have been impacted and people they know have been impacted and Al I'm also involved in so impacted and Al I'm also involved in so impacted and Al I'm also involved in so many communities and I'm seeing this many communities and I'm seeing this many communities and I'm seeing this thing a lot so I don't know what we did thing a lot so I don't know what we did thing a lot so I don't know what we did wrong but there've been a lot of wrong but there've been a lot of wrong but there've been a lot of analysis that hey maybe we over hired analysis that hey maybe we over hired analysis that hey maybe we over hired and that's why we scaling down because and that's why we scaling down because and that's why we scaling down because despite this happening the companies are despite this happening the companies are despite this happening the companies are still making so much profit think about still making so much profit think about still making so much profit think about it that is the part that is difficult it that is the part that is difficult it that is the part that is difficult because even that word over hiring I was because even that word over hiring I was because even that word over hiring I was kind of like a little bit when you said kind of like a little bit when you said kind of like a little bit when you said that I'm like I don't like that word that I'm like I don't like that word that I'm like I don't like that word because doesn't that mean made a mistake because doesn't that mean made a mistake because doesn't that mean made a mistake like if someone over hires they're being like if someone over hires they're being like if someone over hires they're being overly optimistic that we thought things overly optimistic that we thought things overly optimistic that we thought things were going to be great but then those were going to be great but then those were going to be great but then those are humans right these are people with are humans right these are people with are humans right these are people with mortgages and lives that want to be in mortgages and lives that want to be in mortgages and lives that want to be in tech for a long time because this is the tech for a long time because this is the tech for a long time because this is the other thing that the question underneath other thing that the question underneath other thing that the question underneath my question is how do you stay in tech

my question is how do you stay in tech my question is how do you stay in tech for 10 years 20 years 30 years yeah that for 10 years 20 years 30 years yeah that for 10 years 20 years 30 years yeah that is such a great point and I think to me is such a great point and I think to me is such a great point and I think to me the also frustrating part is that people the also frustrating part is that people the also frustrating part is that people are ending up having to pick up other are ending up having to pick up other are ending up having to pick up other jobs which is okay but you can imagine jobs which is okay but you can imagine jobs which is okay but you can imagine having your passion being programming having your passion being programming having your passion being programming and then now you're out and you can't and then now you're out and you can't and then now you're out and you can't stay for more than 3 months or four stay for more than 3 months or four stay for more than 3 months or four months without a job you have to take months without a job you have to take months without a job you have to take something else before you get another something else before you get another something else before you get another job because the market now is very job because the market now is very job because the market now is very competitive however I have a podcast and competitive however I have a podcast and competitive however I have a podcast and this lady told me something very this lady told me something very this lady told me something very interesting that Madonna in situation interesting that Madonna in situation interesting that Madonna in situation like this people need to know how to like this people need to know how to like this people need to know how to create their own comfort zone and I create their own comfort zone and I create their own comfort zone and I thought it was interesting because she thought it was interesting because she thought it was interesting because she said don't rely on a job so much always said don't rely on a job so much always said don't rely on a job so much always have a plan B but it's not as easy as have a plan B but it's not as easy as have a plan B but it's not as easy as she mentioned because so many people she mentioned because so many people she mentioned because so many people don't think about Plan B I spoke to don't think about Plan B I spoke to don't think about Plan B I spoke to another woman that said Madonna I want another woman that said Madonna I want another woman that said Madonna I want my 9 to5 income every day I cannot be a my 9 to5 income every day I cannot be a my 9 to5 income every day I cannot be a Founder it makes total sense because Founder it makes total sense because Founder it makes total sense because being a Founder is not easy but there being a Founder is not easy but there being a Founder is not easy but there are others who will take the risk and are others who will take the risk and are others who will take the risk and say maybe this is the time I can say maybe this is the time I can say maybe this is the time I can Implement my idea and see where this Implement my idea and see where this Implement my idea and see where this takes me so it's tough out there yeah takes me so it's tough out there yeah takes me so it's tough out there yeah you would said at the beginning that you you would said at the beginning that you you would said at the beginning that you started your own company but you know started your own company but you know started your own company but you know those that takes work that in America those that takes work that in America those that takes work that in America that takes Healthcare issues so they you that takes Healthcare issues so they you that takes Healthcare issues so they you know like you have to have Healthcare know like you have to have Healthcare know like you have to have Healthcare lined up uh I've seen people start lined up uh I've seen people start lined up uh I've seen people start companies and maybe they have a partner companies and maybe they have a partner companies and maybe they have a partner that has insurance so like I would start that has insurance so like I would start that has insurance so like I would start a company tomorrow if I could just get a company tomorrow if I could just get a company tomorrow if I could just get health care but I'm a diabetic so I health care but I'm a diabetic so I health care but I'm a diabetic so I can't buy like Health Care in a really can't buy like Health Care in a really can't buy like Health Care in a really good quality healthare on the open good quality healthare on the open good quality healthare on the open market so I use you know I can use my

market so I use you know I can use my market so I use you know I can use my wife's healthare but that's a very wife's healthare but that's a very wife's healthare but that's a very privileged position to be in um having privileged position to be in um having privileged position to be in um having that plan B is uh is difficult when the that plan B is uh is difficult when the that plan B is uh is difficult when the rent is due when the rent is due that's rent is due when the rent is due that's rent is due when the rent is due that's so true I mean I think that the so true I mean I think that the so true I mean I think that the advantage that I got was that my husband advantage that I got was that my husband advantage that I got was that my husband still I mean Works full-time and I still I mean Works full-time and I still I mean Works full-time and I leveraged the community a lot so I leveraged the community a lot so I leveraged the community a lot so I started gulabs as a Consulting farm so started gulabs as a Consulting farm so started gulabs as a Consulting farm so the idea was to reach out to the the idea was to reach out to the the idea was to reach out to the community find out what they're doing community find out what they're doing community find out what they're doing and see if I can get some offers to help and see if I can get some offers to help and see if I can get some offers to help with just Consulting on mobile and also with just Consulting on mobile and also with just Consulting on mobile and also building websites and that worked out building websites and that worked out building websites and that worked out Scott that worked out the community Scott that worked out the community Scott that worked out the community really does come through because my really does come through because my really does come through because my first job of at GS was through a first job of at GS was through a first job of at GS was through a Community member she was like hey we Community member she was like hey we Community member she was like hey we have a very big community of women have a very big community of women have a very big community of women that's building you know this community that's building you know this community that's building you know this community and we need to Rebrand our site and so and we need to Rebrand our site and so and we need to Rebrand our site and so many things and we're like we can give many things and we're like we can give many things and we're like we can give you a quat and then we sent a quote over you a quat and then we sent a quote over you a quat and then we sent a quote over we did the designs and everything my we did the designs and everything my we did the designs and everything my team did that and they approved and they team did that and they approved and they team did that and they approved and they were like we love this and then we went were like we love this and then we went were like we love this and then we went and rebred it and now it's amazing that and rebred it and now it's amazing that and rebred it and now it's amazing that job led to the next job and that led to job led to the next job and that led to job led to the next job and that led to the other and we ended up in one year the other and we ended up in one year the other and we ended up in one year completing five projects 2023 I even got completing five projects 2023 I even got completing five projects 2023 I even got to work with a very big company in New to work with a very big company in New to work with a very big company in New York which does web three and cryptos York which does web three and cryptos York which does web three and cryptos and I was like wait I didn't know I and I was like wait I didn't know I and I was like wait I didn't know I would get into this this is amazing so would get into this this is amazing so would get into this this is amazing so Community does come through yeah so in Community does come through yeah so in Community does come through yeah so in in that process of community you're in that process of community you're in that process of community you're networking you're talking to people but networking you're talking to people but networking you're talking to people but at the same time I'm hearing folks uh at the same time I'm hearing folks uh at the same time I'm hearing folks uh and I'm seeing myself in my inbox people and I'm seeing myself in my inbox people and I'm seeing myself in my inbox people emailing me and saying hey can I pick emailing me and saying hey can I pick emailing me and saying hey can I pick your brain oh yeah we should talk about

your brain oh yeah we should talk about your brain oh yeah we should talk about this pick your brain thing because it's this pick your brain thing because it's this pick your brain thing because it's a generalized Cry for Help yeah like a generalized Cry for Help yeah like a generalized Cry for Help yeah like it's a I don't have a series of actual it's a I don't have a series of actual it's a I don't have a series of actual questions but I'm feeling helpless and questions but I'm feeling helpless and questions but I'm feeling helpless and feel like you are a community person you feel like you are a community person you feel like you are a community person you know hey Madonna can I talk to you can I know hey Madonna can I talk to you can I know hey Madonna can I talk to you can I pick your brain yeah but you've got work pick your brain yeah but you've got work pick your brain yeah but you've got work to do you've got a ship how do you to do you've got a ship how do you to do you've got a ship how do you balance all of those outreaches well balance all of those outreaches well balance all of those outreaches well that's such a great great question I that's such a great great question I that's such a great great question I mean I've seen a couple of controversial mean I've seen a couple of controversial mean I've seen a couple of controversial comments on this especially on LinkedIn comments on this especially on LinkedIn comments on this especially on LinkedIn and most of the time in my life I laugh and most of the time in my life I laugh and most of the time in my life I laugh about them now this is my thing I don't about them now this is my thing I don't about them now this is my thing I don't know I feel like I'm a giver in a way know I feel like I'm a giver in a way know I feel like I'm a giver in a way where I don't I don't want it to come where I don't I don't want it to come where I don't I don't want it to come out in a about but this is just me I out in a about but this is just me I out in a about but this is just me I feel like I give a lot and the only feel like I give a lot and the only feel like I give a lot and the only thing that I like to do is prioritize I thing that I like to do is prioritize I thing that I like to do is prioritize I check on my calendar I look at my check on my calendar I look at my check on my calendar I look at my calendar and ensure that I'm available calendar and ensure that I'm available calendar and ensure that I'm available these days can I offer this just for these days can I offer this just for these days can I offer this just for free because sometimes somebody cannot free because sometimes somebody cannot free because sometimes somebody cannot even find that money to pay why would I even find that money to pay why would I even find that money to pay why would I charge for that so most of the time when charge for that so most of the time when charge for that so most of the time when someone reaches out to me a card I someone reaches out to me a card I someone reaches out to me a card I always send them a calendar and then always send them a calendar and then always send them a calendar and then they book and if I'm not available that they book and if I'm not available that they book and if I'm not available that day I'll tell them can we meet on this day I'll tell them can we meet on this day I'll tell them can we meet on this certain day I might have some time and certain day I might have some time and certain day I might have some time and I'm able to listen and then just offer I'm able to listen and then just offer I'm able to listen and then just offer the kind of information that I can offer the kind of information that I can offer the kind of information that I can offer cuz sometimes I think about it as myself cuz sometimes I think about it as myself cuz sometimes I think about it as myself I struggled a lot in the beginning I I struggled a lot in the beginning I I struggled a lot in the beginning I didn't have anybody to talk to but when didn't have anybody to talk to but when didn't have anybody to talk to but when I found my community women who could I found my community women who could I found my community women who could talk to me for free and share the talk to me for free and share the talk to me for free and share the experiences that helped me stay in experiences that helped me stay in experiences that helped me stay in software software is not easy it's very software software is not easy it's very software software is not easy it's very isolating as I had mentioned before so isolating as I had mentioned before so isolating as I had mentioned before so having someone to talk to might really

having someone to talk to might really having someone to talk to might really motivate you so that's why to me I'm motivate you so that's why to me I'm motivate you so that's why to me I'm always open when somebody reaches out to always open when somebody reaches out to always open when somebody reaches out to me I am available normally if I'm not me I am available normally if I'm not me I am available normally if I'm not available I just say just be honest with available I just say just be honest with available I just say just be honest with yourself are you not if I'm not I'll say yourself are you not if I'm not I'll say yourself are you not if I'm not I'll say hey I'm not available can we move this hey I'm not available can we move this hey I'm not available can we move this this particular date and if somebody's this particular date and if somebody's this particular date and if somebody's willing to wait they wait yeah that'll willing to wait they wait yeah that'll willing to wait they wait yeah that'll be my take on that yeah yeah I think be my take on that yeah yeah I think be my take on that yeah yeah I think that the point is you have to take care that the point is you have to take care that the point is you have to take care of yourself you have to protect yourself of yourself you have to protect yourself of yourself you have to protect yourself so maybe like I have about an hour hour so maybe like I have about an hour hour so maybe like I have about an hour hour and a half sometimes two hours a week and a half sometimes two hours a week and a half sometimes two hours a week where I can meet with people in the where I can meet with people in the where I can meet with people in the community but it that can't accidentally community but it that can't accidentally community but it that can't accidentally turn into a day two days and then the turn into a day two days and then the turn into a day two days and then the next thing you know I'm a full-time can next thing you know I'm a full-time can next thing you know I'm a full-time can I pick your brain no yeah that's true I pick your brain no yeah that's true I pick your brain no yeah that's true yeah you definitely have to prioritize yeah you definitely have to prioritize yeah you definitely have to prioritize that's why I mentioned prior in the that's why I mentioned prior in the that's why I mentioned prior in the beginning I cannot have the calls be so beginning I cannot have the calls be so beginning I cannot have the calls be so many in one day no it has to be spread many in one day no it has to be spread many in one day no it has to be spread out if somebody wants to talk to me out if somebody wants to talk to me out if somebody wants to talk to me let's it up a time and also sometimes let's it up a time and also sometimes let's it up a time and also sometimes something else that I always follow up something else that I always follow up something else that I always follow up with maybe somebody can learn something with maybe somebody can learn something with maybe somebody can learn something from me is I always tell can you from me is I always tell can you from me is I always tell can you highlight the things you want me to look highlight the things you want me to look highlight the things you want me to look into and most of the people actually do into and most of the people actually do into and most of the people actually do that without even me telling them so that without even me telling them so that without even me telling them so I've seen a couple of notes in my I've seen a couple of notes in my I've seen a couple of notes in my calendar like madon I want us to talk calendar like madon I want us to talk calendar like madon I want us to talk about ABC D so I feel like people are about ABC D so I feel like people are about ABC D so I feel like people are actually listening to the feedback that actually listening to the feedback that actually listening to the feedback that people offer out there so it's cool yeah people offer out there so it's cool yeah people offer out there so it's cool yeah I think that's a really important call I think that's a really important call I think that's a really important call out because you know I tend to be a out because you know I tend to be a out because you know I tend to be a little bit like lowkey irritated by the little bit like lowkey irritated by the little bit like lowkey irritated by the picky brain because it's so open-ended picky brain because it's so open-ended picky brain because it's so open-ended but I am excited and I'm energized by but I am excited and I'm energized by but I am excited and I'm energized by three to five bullet points with wellth three to five bullet points with wellth three to five bullet points with wellth thought out questions yes right that is thought out questions yes right that is thought out questions yes right that is uh this is something that a substantive uh this is something that a substantive uh this is something that a substantive I can help with yes I have I have a

I can help with yes I have I have a I can help with yes I have I have a friend of mine I'm actually doing a friend of mine I'm actually doing a friend of mine I'm actually doing a mentorship later this afternoon who is mentorship later this afternoon who is mentorship later this afternoon who is feeling like stuck they are self-taught feeling like stuck they are self-taught feeling like stuck they are self-taught I see them grinding I mean I I see them I see them grinding I mean I I see them I see them grinding I mean I I see them in the Discord I see them on Twitter I in the Discord I see them on Twitter I in the Discord I see them on Twitter I see them on social media asking good see them on social media asking good see them on social media asking good questions that the same time like you're questions that the same time like you're questions that the same time like you're saying there are senior Engineers out saying there are senior Engineers out saying there are senior Engineers out there that are putting out hundreds of there that are putting out hundreds of there that are putting out hundreds of resumes and not getting call backs yeah resumes and not getting call backs yeah resumes and not getting call backs yeah I don't know what to tell my friend this I don't know what to tell my friend this I don't know what to tell my friend this afternoon that's true when he's afternoon that's true when he's afternoon that's true when he's discouraged how do we build this discouraged how do we build this discouraged how do we build this resilience but again there's that that resilience but again there's that that resilience but again there's that that economic pressure as well that is such a economic pressure as well that is such a economic pressure as well that is such a great point and I love this topic so great point and I love this topic so great point and I love this topic so much I think if you're able to off offer much I think if you're able to off offer much I think if you're able to off offer something such as a connection that is something such as a connection that is something such as a connection that is very important because sometimes that's very important because sometimes that's very important because sometimes that's the only thing we can offer there's so the only thing we can offer there's so the only thing we can offer there's so much we can do Scott for instance the much we can do Scott for instance the much we can do Scott for instance the person that reached out to me what I person that reached out to me what I person that reached out to me what I told her is hey write down the roles you told her is hey write down the roles you told her is hey write down the roles you want to apply to and if you see somebody want to apply to and if you see somebody want to apply to and if you see somebody that I'm connected to and this is a that I'm connected to and this is a that I'm connected to and this is a company you want to apply to I will make company you want to apply to I will make company you want to apply to I will make the connection now I said this because the connection now I said this because the connection now I said this because I've done this for other people for I've done this for other people for I've done this for other people for instance this's this amazing ladies she instance this's this amazing ladies she instance this's this amazing ladies she doesn't know me I don't know her but we doesn't know me I don't know her but we doesn't know me I don't know her but we might have met in one of the events cuz might have met in one of the events cuz might have met in one of the events cuz she reconnected and she shed me and told she reconnected and she shed me and told she reconnected and she shed me and told me hey Madonna I saw this job at me hey Madonna I saw this job at me hey Madonna I saw this job at Pinterest and I see you have a Pinterest and I see you have a Pinterest and I see you have a connection there do you know her connection there do you know her connection there do you know her personally and they told her yeah she's personally and they told her yeah she's personally and they told her yeah she's a very good friend of mine do you want a very good friend of mine do you want a very good friend of mine do you want me to reach out to her and then she can me to reach out to her and then she can me to reach out to her and then she can refy you inside she said yeah and refy you inside she said yeah and refy you inside she said yeah and immediately what did I do I created a immediately what did I do I created a immediately what did I do I created a chat between them two and said hey ABCD chat between them two and said hey ABCD chat between them two and said hey ABCD meet this person she wants to apply for meet this person she wants to apply for meet this person she wants to apply for this job can you refer them and I saw

this job can you refer them and I saw this job can you refer them and I saw them communicate and refile each other them communicate and refile each other them communicate and refile each other and the process happened so I don't know and the process happened so I don't know and the process happened so I don't know if she got the job but at least I did my if she got the job but at least I did my if she got the job but at least I did my part so what I can say is that during part so what I can say is that during part so what I can say is that during this hard times CAU if you're able to do this hard times CAU if you're able to do this hard times CAU if you're able to do something as small as that to help the something as small as that to help the something as small as that to help the other person that's good yeah it sounds other person that's good yeah it sounds other person that's good yeah it sounds like you have a very positive like put like you have a very positive like put like you have a very positive like put good stuff out there in the world good stuff out there in the world good stuff out there in the world attitude what caused you to to write you attitude what caused you to to write you attitude what caused you to to write you actually have a book right now called actually have a book right now called actually have a book right now called modern Android 13 development cookbook modern Android 13 development cookbook modern Android 13 development cookbook it's it's very highly rated on Amazon it's it's very highly rated on Amazon it's it's very highly rated on Amazon right now 4.5 rating so this is right now 4.5 rating so this is right now 4.5 rating so this is basically recipes high quality recipes basically recipes high quality recipes basically recipes high quality recipes to solve development issues here's a to solve development issues here's a to solve development issues here's a trick question did you write this for trick question did you write this for trick question did you write this for the people or did you write this for the people or did you write this for the people or did you write this for yourself I actually wrote this for me yourself I actually wrote this for me yourself I actually wrote this for me for one reason and then for the people for one reason and then for the people for one reason and then for the people but I started doing Android around uh but I started doing Android around uh but I started doing Android around uh let's say let's say let's say 2013 2014 and it's not way too old but 2013 2014 and it's not way too old but 2013 2014 and it's not way too old but the way we used to build the system or the way we used to build the system or the way we used to build the system or build the applications it's not the way build the applications it's not the way build the applications it's not the way we do them now a lot has changed over we do them now a lot has changed over we do them now a lot has changed over the years so to me it was just the years so to me it was just the years so to me it was just appreciating that change that I just appreciating that change that I just appreciating that change that I just wanted to capture it down I struggled a wanted to capture it down I struggled a wanted to capture it down I struggled a lot as as a developer trying to lot as as a developer trying to lot as as a developer trying to understand Android I was a Java understand Android I was a Java understand Android I was a Java developer building inventory systems and developer building inventory systems and developer building inventory systems and when I started getting interested in when I started getting interested in when I started getting interested in Mobile I got interested in Mobile Mobile I got interested in Mobile Mobile I got interested in Mobile because I had a phone that had a snake because I had a phone that had a snake because I had a phone that had a snake game and I was like oh my God I want to game and I was like oh my God I want to game and I was like oh my God I want to do something you know I want to do what do something you know I want to do what do something you know I want to do what this person did cu the snake game was this person did cu the snake game was this person did cu the snake game was very popular oh yeah the Nokia snake very popular oh yeah the Nokia snake very popular oh yeah the Nokia snake game was like that was game was like that was game was like that was it yeah yeah and I think to me that was

it yeah yeah and I think to me that was it yeah yeah and I think to me that was the inspiration to get to Mobile and I the inspiration to get to Mobile and I the inspiration to get to Mobile and I was like when I tried to search how can was like when I tried to search how can was like when I tried to search how can I do this it said you just need Java I I do this it said you just need Java I I do this it said you just need Java I was like wait I have that knowledge of was like wait I have that knowledge of was like wait I have that knowledge of java so I started doing it anyway to go java so I started doing it anyway to go java so I started doing it anyway to go back what I decided to do is I go there back what I decided to do is I go there back what I decided to do is I go there and I built this application and I and I built this application and I and I built this application and I decided you know what I will write about decided you know what I will write about decided you know what I will write about that Journey which is how complex it was that Journey which is how complex it was that Journey which is how complex it was back then and how disorganized it was back then and how disorganized it was back then and how disorganized it was and now how it's easy for new people to and now how it's easy for new people to and now how it's easy for new people to pick up and actually build more than pick up and actually build more than pick up and actually build more than Android applications where people will Android applications where people will Android applications where people will love now my UI was so terrible my fast love now my UI was so terrible my fast love now my UI was so terrible my fast apps the ones that I buil and released apps the ones that I buil and released apps the ones that I buil and released them them them don't go looking for them but they were don't go looking for them but they were don't go looking for them but they were very terrible but right now I feel like very terrible but right now I feel like very terrible but right now I feel like new developers that want to learn about new developers that want to learn about new developers that want to learn about building mobile applications let's say building mobile applications let's say building mobile applications let's say Android which is such a big ecosystem Android which is such a big ecosystem Android which is such a big ecosystem it's easier now like we have this it's easier now like we have this it's easier now like we have this defined like patterns and architectures defined like patterns and architectures defined like patterns and architectures back then it was activities activities back then it was activities activities back then it was activities activities activities activities no fragments no activities activities no fragments no activities activities no fragments no dependency injection just you trying to dependency injection just you trying to dependency injection just you trying to do anything but I also did appreciate do anything but I also did appreciate do anything but I also did appreciate Google what they've done over the years Google what they've done over the years Google what they've done over the years just advancing it yeah yeah so you just advancing it yeah yeah so you just advancing it yeah yeah so you started in Java though not writing started in Java though not writing started in Java though not writing mobile apps I saw that you worked at mobile apps I saw that you worked at mobile apps I saw that you worked at UNICEF like you did work in Java so you UNICEF like you did work in Java so you UNICEF like you did work in Java so you had the language experience yes and then had the language experience yes and then had the language experience yes and then Android comes along and you're like hang Android comes along and you're like hang Android comes along and you're like hang on a second I can do TVs I can do phones on a second I can do TVs I can do phones on a second I can do TVs I can do phones I can do my I can write an app for my I can do my I can write an app for my I can do my I can write an app for my watch I think your point also about how watch I think your point also about how watch I think your point also about how we're kind of standing on the shoulders we're kind of standing on the shoulders we're kind of standing on the shoulders of giants like you really have a focus of giants like you really have a focus of giants like you really have a focus on the jetpack libraries yeah it's like on the jetpack libraries yeah it's like on the jetpack libraries yeah it's like this huge Corpus of information that the

this huge Corpus of information that the this huge Corpus of information that the young people that the junior Engineers young people that the junior Engineers young people that the junior Engineers can can use yeah which you didn't have can can use yeah which you didn't have can can use yeah which you didn't have when you were doing Java you were doing when you were doing Java you were doing when you were doing Java you were doing it like Java on the metal on the yeah it like Java on the metal on the yeah it like Java on the metal on the yeah and now we have cuddling yeah oh yeah and now we have cuddling yeah oh yeah and now we have cuddling yeah oh yeah that's a great point you call out cotlin that's a great point you call out cotlin that's a great point you call out cotlin as well because this book at the end of as well because this book at the end of as well because this book at the end of it you're ready to go and write a whole it you're ready to go and write a whole it you're ready to go and write a whole application in cotlin how did you find application in cotlin how did you find application in cotlin how did you find that Java to cotland translation for that Java to cotland translation for that Java to cotland translation for your in your mind oh wow wow it wasn't your in your mind oh wow wow it wasn't your in your mind oh wow wow it wasn't easy and this is why I was used to Java easy and this is why I was used to Java easy and this is why I was used to Java let's say you've had experien your job let's say you've had experien your job let's say you've had experien your job right now you're like a good Java right now you're like a good Java right now you're like a good Java developer you know you're scrolling and developer you know you're scrolling and developer you know you're scrolling and those those those what I'm going to call it is it what I'm going to call it is it what I'm going to call it is it flaunting like you're so good at it you flaunting like you're so good at it you flaunting like you're so good at it you can yeah you're flaunting your your can yeah you're flaunting your your can yeah you're flaunting your your abilities yeah you're a good mid-level abilities yeah you're a good mid-level abilities yeah you're a good mid-level Java person you can do anything in Java Java person you can do anything in Java Java person you can do anything in Java yeah and then all of a sudden everybody yeah and then all of a sudden everybody yeah and then all of a sudden everybody that has to work in Android now has to that has to work in Android now has to that has to work in Android now has to use cotlin can you imagine that use cotlin can you imagine that use cotlin can you imagine that transition yeah in the beginning I transition yeah in the beginning I transition yeah in the beginning I actually resisted because I was like I actually resisted because I was like I actually resisted because I was like I don't want to do this however I remember don't want to do this however I remember don't want to do this however I remember in interviews because I interviewed they in interviews because I interviewed they in interviews because I interviewed they said it's okay you can interview in Java said it's okay you can interview in Java said it's okay you can interview in Java but our code is in cotlin so that did but our code is in cotlin so that did but our code is in cotlin so that did Dem moralize me a little bit but the one Dem moralize me a little bit but the one Dem moralize me a little bit but the one thing that I learned is that as thing that I learned is that as thing that I learned is that as Engineers we are signed up to something Engineers we are signed up to something Engineers we are signed up to something called lifelong learning there's no way called lifelong learning there's no way called lifelong learning there's no way our ecosystem is going to remain the our ecosystem is going to remain the our ecosystem is going to remain the same all the time we will always change same all the time we will always change same all the time we will always change and have to learn and adjust so that and have to learn and adjust so that and have to learn and adjust so that mindset kicked me back and like you know mindset kicked me back and like you know mindset kicked me back and like you know kicked me and like Madonna you have to kicked me and like Madonna you have to kicked me and like Madonna you have to learn this so I had to take the time and learn this so I had to take the time and learn this so I had to take the time and what really helped me is that I already what really helped me is that I already what really helped me is that I already had an app called budget and buddy so I

had an app called budget and buddy so I had an app called budget and buddy so I decided to write that entire app again decided to write that entire app again decided to write that entire app again just slowly during just my normal just slowly during just my normal just slowly during just my normal Saturdays and Sundays to cotland and Saturdays and Sundays to cotland and Saturdays and Sundays to cotland and that really helped so that started that really helped so that started that really helped so that started building the M muscle memory for cotlin building the M muscle memory for cotlin building the M muscle memory for cotlin and before you know it I was good at it and before you know it I was good at it and before you know it I was good at it and now I love cotlin I even love it and now I love cotlin I even love it and now I love cotlin I even love it more than Java even though I know Java more than Java even though I know Java more than Java even though I know Java really Advanced and became better and really Advanced and became better and really Advanced and became better and I'm like oh no poor I'm like oh no poor I'm like oh no poor Java what can we do you left Java behind Java what can we do you left Java behind Java what can we do you left Java behind so interesting that you took your your so interesting that you took your your so interesting that you took your your budgeting application did you rewrite it budgeting application did you rewrite it budgeting application did you rewrite it or did you port it because I think or did you port it because I think or did you port it because I think that's a really interesting question I that's a really interesting question I that's a really interesting question I rewrote it because I found that to be rewrote it because I found that to be rewrote it because I found that to be much easier so the good thing is that I much easier so the good thing is that I much easier so the good thing is that I had the classes you could easily convert had the classes you could easily convert had the classes you could easily convert that to just I mean they made C such that to just I mean they made C such that to just I mean they made C such that you can convert Java code to that you can convert Java code to that you can convert Java code to cotland easily but the formating was not cotland easily but the formating was not cotland easily but the formating was not good so I decided not to do that instead good so I decided not to do that instead good so I decided not to do that instead just look at the classes I knew it's the just look at the classes I knew it's the just look at the classes I knew it's the same way did compost that's how I same way did compost that's how I same way did compost that's how I learned it I was like okay I know what I learned it I was like okay I know what I learned it I was like okay I know what I need to get I have the logic I just need need to get I have the logic I just need need to get I have the logic I just need to go ins start rewrite and using these to go ins start rewrite and using these to go ins start rewrite and using these particular procedures that are new now particular procedures that are new now particular procedures that are new now and that really worked for me cuz it and that really worked for me cuz it and that really worked for me cuz it creat that me some memory because you're creat that me some memory because you're creat that me some memory because you're not breaking anything you're building it not breaking anything you're building it not breaking anything you're building it as a feature on the side as you compare as a feature on the side as you compare as a feature on the side as you compare the code as you go and also learn yeah the code as you go and also learn yeah the code as you go and also learn yeah there different ways to learn new things there different ways to learn new things there different ways to learn new things yeah that helped me a lot yeah that yeah that helped me a lot yeah that yeah that helped me a lot yeah that cotlin switch over though I think is a cotlin switch over though I think is a cotlin switch over though I think is a is a kicker for a lot of people I mean is a kicker for a lot of people I mean is a kicker for a lot of people I mean it's they're both great languages uh it's they're both great languages uh it's they're both great languages uh cotland just came out with such a better cotland just came out with such a better cotland just came out with such a better syntax it was more concise I remember syntax it was more concise I remember syntax it was more concise I remember doing Java I was at Nike in 1997 writing doing Java I was at Nike in 1997 writing doing Java I was at Nike in 1997 writing Java and you know it was it was a chatty

Java and you know it was it was a chatty Java and you know it was it was a chatty and there were a lot of words to say and there were a lot of words to say and there were a lot of words to say stuff uh one of the great things that I stuff uh one of the great things that I stuff uh one of the great things that I that I do appreciate with the historical that I do appreciate with the historical that I do appreciate with the historical context that I have having been doing context that I have having been doing context that I have having been doing this for a while is things are more this for a while is things are more this for a while is things are more concise now oh yeah you're right I love concise now oh yeah you're right I love concise now oh yeah you're right I love it for that now I feel like right now it for that now I feel like right now it for that now I feel like right now that's the thing I can Flex on even that's the thing I can Flex on even that's the thing I can Flex on even though I'm moving away from coding a lot though I'm moving away from coding a lot though I'm moving away from coding a lot now but I still enjoy coding but yeah now but I still enjoy coding but yeah now but I still enjoy coding but yeah well that's interesting you did this well that's interesting you did this well that's interesting you did this book but you're moving away from coding book but you're moving away from coding book but you're moving away from coding you're a CTO now how do you find that you're a CTO now how do you find that you're a CTO now how do you find that balance because I think sometimes the balance because I think sometimes the balance because I think sometimes the CTO is expected to be the best coder but CTO is expected to be the best coder but CTO is expected to be the best coder but really they have business problems to really they have business problems to really they have business problems to solve and they have to Bridge Business solve and they have to Bridge Business solve and they have to Bridge Business and Tech and but I don't want to lose I and Tech and but I don't want to lose I and Tech and but I don't want to lose I don't want to lose my you know my coding don't want to lose my you know my coding don't want to lose my you know my coding ability that's a very good point and I ability that's a very good point and I ability that's a very good point and I think for what I've done with that is think for what I've done with that is think for what I've done with that is just to ensure that I continue coding I just to ensure that I continue coding I just to ensure that I continue coding I do continue coding on the side which is do continue coding on the side which is do continue coding on the side which is not a lot as I would want it to be but not a lot as I would want it to be but not a lot as I would want it to be but I'm okay with that because I'm not I'm okay with that because I'm not I'm okay with that because I'm not losing any and I've realized that now losing any and I've realized that now losing any and I've realized that now something that I've actually learned as something that I've actually learned as something that I've actually learned as a CTO for my new company is that I'm a CTO for my new company is that I'm a CTO for my new company is that I'm actually using a lot I'm learning Asia actually using a lot I'm learning Asia actually using a lot I'm learning Asia of CC shop good now one thing that I of CC shop good now one thing that I of CC shop good now one thing that I have to say is that once you've done it have to say is that once you've done it have to say is that once you've done it so much and it becomes easier for you to so much and it becomes easier for you to so much and it becomes easier for you to grasp the concepts understanding other grasp the concepts understanding other grasp the concepts understanding other languages and working with them it's languages and working with them it's languages and working with them it's much easier so I went there and I much easier so I went there and I much easier so I went there and I noticed the bag and I was able to look noticed the bag and I was able to look noticed the bag and I was able to look through the bag and recommended a fix through the bag and recommended a fix through the bag and recommended a fix just for fun and they were like yeah oh just for fun and they were like yeah oh just for fun and they were like yeah oh have you CED the SE said no but I can have you CED the SE said no but I can have you CED the SE said no but I can read the C so I think taking a lot of read the C so I think taking a lot of read the C so I think taking a lot of years doing it really does help a lot years doing it really does help a lot years doing it really does help a lot that's why I would like to share this to

that's why I would like to share this to that's why I would like to share this to develop velers out there and Junior develop velers out there and Junior develop velers out there and Junior developers don't get frustrated it gets developers don't get frustrated it gets developers don't get frustrated it gets better with time because sometimes I see better with time because sometimes I see better with time because sometimes I see people saying how do you become a good people saying how do you become a good people saying how do you become a good coder first of all the things I see coder first of all the things I see coder first of all the things I see about becoming a good coder in one day about becoming a good coder in one day about becoming a good coder in one day or 60 days that's false it takes so many or 60 days that's false it takes so many or 60 days that's false it takes so many years to just get duse to it and years to just get duse to it and years to just get duse to it and understand the logic and then you become understand the logic and then you become understand the logic and then you become better and then now you can read other better and then now you can read other better and then now you can read other languages and you can easily write other languages and you can easily write other languages and you can easily write other languages pretty easily too this here languages pretty easily too this here languages pretty easily too this here here's a funny way to think about it and here's a funny way to think about it and here's a funny way to think about it and this might be so I want the earlier in this might be so I want the earlier in this might be so I want the earlier in career people to feel that sense of career people to feel that sense of career people to feel that sense of power of entering an unfamiliar space an power of entering an unfamiliar space an power of entering an unfamiliar space an unfamiliar architecture unfamiliar unfamiliar architecture unfamiliar unfamiliar architecture unfamiliar language yeah and kind of going yeah I language yeah and kind of going yeah I language yeah and kind of going yeah I see how they must have done this it's see how they must have done this it's see how they must have done this it's not that you know it but you know that not that you know it but you know that not that you know it but you know that if you were there this is how you would if you were there this is how you would if you were there this is how you would have done it therefore they must have have done it therefore they must have have done it therefore they must have done that and it's a very confident done that and it's a very confident done that and it's a very confident feeling I want them to have that feeling I want them to have that feeling I want them to have that confidence but they have to stick around confidence but they have to stick around confidence but they have to stick around yeah for 5 years or 10 years and that's yeah for 5 years or 10 years and that's yeah for 5 years or 10 years and that's the challenge I don't want whoever's the challenge I don't want whoever's the challenge I don't want whoever's listening I don't want you to quit oh listening I don't want you to quit oh listening I don't want you to quit oh that's true yeah don't quit don't quit that's true yeah don't quit don't quit that's true yeah don't quit don't quit yeah I would say that don't quit it's yeah I would say that don't quit it's yeah I would say that don't quit it's not it's never easy though especially if not it's never easy though especially if not it's never easy though especially if you sign up for this field the other you sign up for this field the other you sign up for this field the other thing I know there's a lot of thing I know there's a lot of thing I know there's a lot of controversy with AI placing us which is controversy with AI placing us which is controversy with AI placing us which is another topic but what I can say about another topic but what I can say about another topic but what I can say about this is that there's a lot of challenges this is that there's a lot of challenges this is that there's a lot of challenges in this but it gets fun I think you have in this but it gets fun I think you have in this but it gets fun I think you have to enjoy problem solving cuz that is to enjoy problem solving cuz that is to enjoy problem solving cuz that is something I enjoy a lot I remember this something I enjoy a lot I remember this something I enjoy a lot I remember this day it's actually just recent our site day it's actually just recent our site day it's actually just recent our site went down and it was just a minor fix

went down and it was just a minor fix went down and it was just a minor fix our team my entire team is in Europe so our team my entire team is in Europe so our team my entire team is in Europe so I was the only one who who was awake I was the only one who who was awake I was the only one who who was awake start looking into it like I've said start looking into it like I've said start looking into it like I've said I've not worked a lot on web but I've I've not worked a lot on web but I've I've not worked a lot on web but I've had experiences over the years and I had had experiences over the years and I had had experiences over the years and I had to look into it and did my Recon like oh to look into it and did my Recon like oh to look into it and did my Recon like oh I know this is a fix and then since I I know this is a fix and then since I I know this is a fix and then since I didn't have access to fix that didn't have access to fix that didn't have access to fix that particular thing I just sent to the C particular thing I just sent to the C particular thing I just sent to the C engineer the summary of my findings and engineer the summary of my findings and engineer the summary of my findings and it was like in the morning oh yeah I it was like in the morning oh yeah I it was like in the morning oh yeah I think that was the problem and then he think that was the problem and then he think that was the problem and then he fixed it in me and I was like okay fixed it in me and I was like okay fixed it in me and I was like okay points exactly it's very comforting to points exactly it's very comforting to points exactly it's very comforting to have that feeling like it's a power ful have that feeling like it's a power ful have that feeling like it's a power ful feeling to be and that's the other thing feeling to be and that's the other thing feeling to be and that's the other thing I want early in career people or I want early in career people or I want early in career people or Beginnings people to feel like is that Beginnings people to feel like is that Beginnings people to feel like is that feeling you and I have where like I have feeling you and I have where like I have feeling you and I have where like I have power I you know I helped uh I helped power I you know I helped uh I helped power I you know I helped uh I helped solve this problem you know what I mean solve this problem you know what I mean solve this problem you know what I mean yeah that's the thing that's what I'm yeah that's the thing that's what I'm yeah that's the thing that's what I'm saying don't quit I know the environment saying don't quit I know the environment saying don't quit I know the environment might not be friendly but quitting is might not be friendly but quitting is might not be friendly but quitting is not I mean it's also fair to say if it's not I mean it's also fair to say if it's not I mean it's also fair to say if it's not working for you it's okay cuz people not working for you it's okay cuz people not working for you it's okay cuz people are different there are people that you are different there are people that you are different there are people that you won't stop them from quitting which is won't stop them from quitting which is won't stop them from quitting which is okay I feel like yeah that's okay but if okay I feel like yeah that's okay but if okay I feel like yeah that's okay but if you're really passionate about it stick you're really passionate about it stick you're really passionate about it stick around find people that can walk with around find people that can walk with around find people that can walk with you through this journey and yeah you you through this journey and yeah you you through this journey and yeah you got this how do you find your people got this how do you find your people got this how do you find your people though like it sounds like in in New though like it sounds like in in New though like it sounds like in in New York you found like women who code and York you found like women who code and York you found like women who code and different groups that you get together different groups that you get together different groups that you get together you speak you know I've seen you give you speak you know I've seen you give you speak you know I've seen you give talks on this stuff but how do you find talks on this stuff but how do you find talks on this stuff but how do you find your tribe because I think that the word your tribe because I think that the word your tribe because I think that the word that hit me the most that you said that hit me the most that you said that hit me the most that you said earlier was how isolating yeah Tech can earlier was how isolating yeah Tech can earlier was how isolating yeah Tech can be especially with the pandemic yeah be especially with the pandemic yeah be especially with the pandemic yeah that's actually a very good point that's actually a very good point that's actually a very good point because this is a mistake I did Ali in because this is a mistake I did Ali in because this is a mistake I did Ali in my career I didn't think there was a

my career I didn't think there was a my career I didn't think there was a need for me to get involved in the need for me to get involved in the need for me to get involved in the communities and also have to mention in communities and also have to mention in communities and also have to mention in the beginning earlier on I think around the beginning earlier on I think around the beginning earlier on I think around 2011 there weren't so many communities I 2011 there weren't so many communities I 2011 there weren't so many communities I think communities just started coming think communities just started coming think communities just started coming out from the pandemic time and now we out from the pandemic time and now we out from the pandemic time and now we have so many which is amazing so I would have so many which is amazing so I would have so many which is amazing so I would say the way I found my community was say the way I found my community was say the way I found my community was after spending so many years and just after spending so many years and just after spending so many years and just going through a couple of companies and going through a couple of companies and going through a couple of companies and also experiencing different countes also experiencing different countes also experiencing different countes because as as I mentioned with you because as as I mentioned with you because as as I mentioned with you before this companies adverti themselves before this companies adverti themselves before this companies adverti themselves as we have a great culture you know but as we have a great culture you know but as we have a great culture you know but once you join the company that's when once you join the company that's when once you join the company that's when you know the true culture that's there you know the true culture that's there you know the true culture that's there because it's a branding thing because because it's a branding thing because because it's a branding thing because you don't get to know the people you'll you don't get to know the people you'll you don't get to know the people you'll work with just through a one- day work with just through a one- day work with just through a one- day interview or a session and then you pass interview or a session and then you pass interview or a session and then you pass the interview and then you get employed the interview and then you get employed the interview and then you get employed it's when you work with them that you it's when you work with them that you it's when you work with them that you know oh okay this is how it goes because know oh okay this is how it goes because know oh okay this is how it goes because I think I've shared this before if I think I've shared this before if I think I've shared this before if somebody has listened to me but I know I somebody has listened to me but I know I somebody has listened to me but I know I know most of your listeners have not had know most of your listeners have not had know most of your listeners have not had this but one of the most shocking thing this but one of the most shocking thing this but one of the most shocking thing that I had in my review in one company I that I had in my review in one company I that I had in my review in one company I would to mention it was that I ask so would to mention it was that I ask so would to mention it was that I ask so many question and that really many question and that really many question and that really demotivated me cuz I was like what am I demotivated me cuz I was like what am I demotivated me cuz I was like what am I supposed to do I'm just new and I was supposed to do I'm just new and I was supposed to do I'm just new and I was new to that company but they're saying new to that company but they're saying new to that company but they're saying this is a bad thing this is a negative this is a bad thing this is a negative this is a bad thing this is a negative review like like you like she asked too review like like you like she asked too review like like you like she asked too many questions yes yes it was a negative many questions yes yes it was a negative many questions yes yes it was a negative review it almost put me to review it almost put me to review it almost put me to pip see yeah that just is messed up I pip see yeah that just is messed up I pip see yeah that just is messed up I mean it is I can understand asking so mean it is I can understand asking so mean it is I can understand asking so many questions that you disrupt a many questions that you disrupt a many questions that you disrupt a meeting but if you pull an senior meeting but if you pull an senior meeting but if you pull an senior engineer aside and you say hey I have

engineer aside and you say hey I have engineer aside and you say hey I have some questions here's my list let's sit some questions here's my list let's sit some questions here's my list let's sit down this is the exactly the kind of down this is the exactly the kind of down this is the exactly the kind of employee that you want you want someone employee that you want you want someone employee that you want you want someone who is curious and learning and even who is curious and learning and even who is curious and learning and even more you can use those questions to more you can use those questions to more you can use those questions to determine if the person is growing determine if the person is growing determine if the person is growing because the questions are going to get because the questions are going to get because the questions are going to get more interesting and more hard more more interesting and more hard more more interesting and more hard more senior questions that's what I thought senior questions that's what I thought senior questions that's what I thought Scott that's what I thought but I Scott that's what I thought but I Scott that's what I thought but I realized it's more of the culture of realized it's more of the culture of realized it's more of the culture of heads down and somebody just wanting to heads down and somebody just wanting to heads down and somebody just wanting to work on their work because maybe to them work on their work because maybe to them work on their work because maybe to them they expected to complete the work time they expected to complete the work time they expected to complete the work time and it brings up the question of the and it brings up the question of the and it brings up the question of the culture we have especially here in culture we have especially here in culture we have especially here in America where people just want to America where people just want to America where people just want to complete their work in the Sprint and complete their work in the Sprint and complete their work in the Sprint and grab more tickets which I find to be grab more tickets which I find to be grab more tickets which I find to be such a bad thing at least in my culture such a bad thing at least in my culture such a bad thing at least in my culture wherever my company and also where I am wherever my company and also where I am wherever my company and also where I am right now encourage that ability of right now encourage that ability of right now encourage that ability of instead of completing and picking more instead of completing and picking more instead of completing and picking more try to see if somebody is struggling you try to see if somebody is struggling you try to see if somebody is struggling you know and see if you can help them know and see if you can help them know and see if you can help them instead of picking because I mean if instead of picking because I mean if instead of picking because I mean if everybody's doing good and they're good everybody's doing good and they're good everybody's doing good and they're good then okay fine pick up more work but then okay fine pick up more work but then okay fine pick up more work but instead of picking up more work to to instead of picking up more work to to instead of picking up more work to to prove a point try to help the other prove a point try to help the other prove a point try to help the other Engineers but it's tough right it's both Engineers but it's tough right it's both Engineers but it's tough right it's both isolating but if you're an introvert and isolating but if you're an introvert and isolating but if you're an introvert and isolated and working from home I can see isolated and working from home I can see isolated and working from home I can see someone going from like their bed 6 feet someone going from like their bed 6 feet someone going from like their bed 6 feet to their office and then back to their to their office and then back to their to their office and then back to their bed and that can be awful I I enjoy I bed and that can be awful I I enjoy I bed and that can be awful I I enjoy I get energy from talking to people about get energy from talking to people about get energy from talking to people about technical problems I really try to technical problems I really try to technical problems I really try to encourage people who have the emotional encourage people who have the emotional encourage people who have the emotional spoons to go out into the world and talk spoons to go out into the world and talk spoons to go out into the world and talk to someone you know try to get a pair to someone you know try to get a pair to someone you know try to get a pair programmer join a Discord get involved

programmer join a Discord get involved programmer join a Discord get involved find your community find people who do find your community find people who do find your community find people who do appreciate you asking a lot of questions appreciate you asking a lot of questions appreciate you asking a lot of questions so that because it sounds like that so that because it sounds like that so that because it sounds like that company sucks oh yeah the good thing is company sucks oh yeah the good thing is company sucks oh yeah the good thing is that so this is the funny part when I that so this is the funny part when I that so this is the funny part when I told them I was quitting I was like Oh told them I was quitting I was like Oh told them I was quitting I was like Oh no you're quitting why they were shock no you're quitting why they were shock no you're quitting why they were shock no like are you kidding no like are you kidding no like are you kidding me I actually stayed longer than I me I actually stayed longer than I me I actually stayed longer than I thought I would but it was one of the thought I would but it was one of the thought I would but it was one of the worst experiences I've had I mean other worst experiences I've had I mean other worst experiences I've had I mean other companies were okay I didn't find such companies were okay I didn't find such companies were okay I didn't find such an isolating culture but hey again like an isolating culture but hey again like an isolating culture but hey again like I mentioned look companies are different I mentioned look companies are different I mentioned look companies are different what they say they will be is not what what they say they will be is not what what they say they will be is not what they are but also the other thing I they are but also the other thing I they are but also the other thing I wanted to piggy back to is the community wanted to piggy back to is the community wanted to piggy back to is the community part how I found mine was through that part how I found mine was through that part how I found mine was through that particular period of struggling and particular period of struggling and particular period of struggling and being told to ask so many question I being told to ask so many question I being told to ask so many question I stopped asking the questions so what I stopped asking the questions so what I stopped asking the questions so what I did was if I had a question now I did was if I had a question now I did was if I had a question now I wouldn't ask any wordss I would just wouldn't ask any wordss I would just wouldn't ask any wordss I would just rephrase my question and just ask a rephrase my question and just ask a rephrase my question and just ask a community I was in and then that's what community I was in and then that's what community I was in and then that's what led me to get involved more in the led me to get involved more in the led me to get involved more in the community because then I would get community because then I would get community because then I would get people who were willing to help me but people who were willing to help me but people who were willing to help me but just telling me hey Madonna actually just telling me hey Madonna actually just telling me hey Madonna actually this is how you solve the problem a BCD this is how you solve the problem a BCD this is how you solve the problem a BCD and then they send me a link I mean you and then they send me a link I mean you and then they send me a link I mean you could Google this stuff but sometimes could Google this stuff but sometimes could Google this stuff but sometimes when you're new and also you're trying when you're new and also you're trying when you're new and also you're trying to understand how let's say a different to understand how let's say a different to understand how let's say a different framework works for instance here it was framework works for instance here it was framework works for instance here it was reactive programming which I had never reactive programming which I had never reactive programming which I had never done yeah it's a totally different done yeah it's a totally different done yeah it's a totally different mindset it's hard to read the docs mindset it's hard to read the docs mindset it's hard to read the docs reactive programming when that came out reactive programming when that came out reactive programming when that came out everyone's brain inverted in yes yeah so everyone's brain inverted in yes yeah so everyone's brain inverted in yes yeah so when I would get people just explaining when I would get people just explaining when I would get people just explaining to me and also booking a c to just to me and also booking a c to just to me and also booking a c to just explain it to me better that really explain it to me better that really explain it to me better that really helped me a lot and I was like wait helped me a lot and I was like wait helped me a lot and I was like wait whole time the community really does

whole time the community really does whole time the community really does come through and that's when I started come through and that's when I started come through and that's when I started getting engaged with the community more getting engaged with the community more getting engaged with the community more and going out more and helping out more and going out more and helping out more and going out more and helping out more too because I realized somebody else too because I realized somebody else too because I realized somebody else might be suffering as I am but being might be suffering as I am but being might be suffering as I am but being there to answer such questions might there to answer such questions might there to answer such questions might help and then I started doing webinars help and then I started doing webinars help and then I started doing webinars too like teaching others how to code too like teaching others how to code too like teaching others how to code that helped me a lot too like just get that helped me a lot too like just get that helped me a lot too like just get that knowledge in and share it out so that knowledge in and share it out so that knowledge in and share it out so now that you're a chief technology now that you're a chief technology now that you're a chief technology officer are you going to use this way of officer are you going to use this way of officer are you going to use this way of thinking to inform how you interact with thinking to inform how you interact with thinking to inform how you interact with your engineers so that they might feel your engineers so that they might feel your engineers so that they might feel more welcome because you are going to more welcome because you are going to more welcome because you are going to advertise a positive culture and you are advertise a positive culture and you are advertise a positive culture and you are going to interview people and hopefully going to interview people and hopefully going to interview people and hopefully the culture will match though when they the culture will match though when they the culture will match though when they show up and they're going to say hey our show up and they're going to say hey our show up and they're going to say hey our CTO is cool yeah I hope that's what they CTO is cool yeah I hope that's what they CTO is cool yeah I hope that's what they say now yeah oh yeah definitely say now yeah oh yeah definitely say now yeah oh yeah definitely definitely yeah my entire team is in definitely yeah my entire team is in definitely yeah my entire team is in Europe but I do appreciate just being Europe but I do appreciate just being Europe but I do appreciate just being able to talk to them about some issues able to talk to them about some issues able to talk to them about some issues and also them talking to me about and also them talking to me about and also them talking to me about they're able to book a Col and most of they're able to book a Col and most of they're able to book a Col and most of the time I come with an open-minded also the time I come with an open-minded also the time I come with an open-minded also approach like hey look I don't know approach like hey look I don't know approach like hey look I don't know everything I'm willing to listen and I everything I'm willing to listen and I everything I'm willing to listen and I ask questions too like how would you ask questions too like how would you ask questions too like how would you approach that do you think that's the approach that do you think that's the approach that do you think that's the best and then I just go and research and best and then I just go and research and best and then I just go and research and see if somebody used it let's say if a see if somebody used it let's say if a see if somebody used it let's say if a company used it was that the best company used it was that the best company used it was that the best approach what did they experience and approach what did they experience and approach what did they experience and how they mitigate some risks and all how they mitigate some risks and all how they mitigate some risks and all that stuff so being a learner and also that stuff so being a learner and also that stuff so being a learner and also encouraging that positive affirmation or encouraging that positive affirmation or encouraging that positive affirmation or positive reinforcement is very important positive reinforcement is very important positive reinforcement is very important for engineers yeah yeah so you've been for engineers yeah yeah so you've been for engineers yeah yeah so you've been in tech for a number of years is this is in tech for a number of years is this is in tech for a number of years is this is your final form is your final career are

your final form is your final career are your final form is your final career are you going to go and do this for your you going to go and do this for your you going to go and do this for your entire job because my wife just switched entire job because my wife just switched entire job because my wife just switched careers she switched from being a careers she switched from being a careers she switched from being a finance person to being a nurse so my finance person to being a nurse so my finance person to being a nurse so my kids are wondering if I'm going to quit kids are wondering if I'm going to quit kids are wondering if I'm going to quit Tech and become like a teacher right and Tech and become like a teacher right and Tech and become like a teacher right and I was thinking that would be my like I was thinking that would be my like I was thinking that would be my like high school science teacher might be my high school science teacher might be my high school science teacher might be my final form ah yeah that's a good one I final form ah yeah that's a good one I final form ah yeah that's a good one I think that's going to tie into my think that's going to tie into my think that's going to tie into my passions so this is not the end of my passions so this is not the end of my passions so this is not the end of my career definitely I will stay in Te a career definitely I will stay in Te a career definitely I will stay in Te a little bit for the startups that I'm little bit for the startups that I'm little bit for the startups that I'm working with my startup and also this working with my startup and also this working with my startup and also this but my future definitely I see myself but my future definitely I see myself but my future definitely I see myself joining politics cuz I'm very passionate joining politics cuz I'm very passionate joining politics cuz I'm very passionate about policies I see a lot of things not about policies I see a lot of things not about policies I see a lot of things not working look I've spoken to a couple of working look I've spoken to a couple of working look I've spoken to a couple of people about this and they got feedback people about this and they got feedback people about this and they got feedback about yeah politics you never see an about yeah politics you never see an about yeah politics you never see an impact I was like it's okay even if it's impact I was like it's okay even if it's impact I was like it's okay even if it's not implemented now I know if I fight not implemented now I know if I fight not implemented now I know if I fight for it years later it will be for it years later it will be for it years later it will be implemented so I'm okay seeing if my implemented so I'm okay seeing if my implemented so I'm okay seeing if my kids get to experience the benefits I'm kids get to experience the benefits I'm kids get to experience the benefits I'm okay with that okay well maybe politics okay with that okay well maybe politics okay with that okay well maybe politics are your is your final location that's are your is your final location that's are your is your final location that's awesome yeah no retirement awesome yeah no retirement awesome yeah no retirement do you get the joke no retirement do you get the joke no retirement do you get the joke no retirement exactly exactly cool I'm SEC myor exactly exactly cool I'm SEC myor exactly exactly cool I'm SEC myor retirement I really appreciate you retirement I really appreciate you retirement I really appreciate you taking the time to chat with me today taking the time to chat with me today taking the time to chat with me today yeah too it was an amazing yeah too it was an amazing yeah too it was an amazing conversation we have been chatting with conversation we have been chatting with conversation we have been chatting with Madonna wua she's a founder and a CTO Madonna wua she's a founder and a CTO Madonna wua she's a founder and a CTO and a technology expert uh you can check and a technology expert uh you can check and a technology expert uh you can check out her book modern Android 13 out her book modern Android 13 out her book modern Android 13 development cookbook from last year and development cookbook from last year and development cookbook from last year and you can check out her website as well you can check out her website as well you can check out her website as well I'll put a link in the show notes this I'll put a link in the show notes this I'll put a link in the show notes this has been another episode of Hansel has been another episode of Hansel has been another episode of Hansel minutes and we'll see you again next minutes and we'll see you again next minutes and we'll see you again next week