Cheat Codes for Junior Engineers with Kat Excellence

Hey friends, it's Scott. I want to take Hey friends, it's Scott. I want to take a moment in the middle of the show here a moment in the middle of the show here a moment in the middle of the show here and just thank our sponsor, Tupil. I was and just thank our sponsor, Tupil. I was and just thank our sponsor, Tupil. I was chatting with Johnny Marlor recently. chatting with Johnny Marlor recently. chatting with Johnny Marlor recently. You know, Johnny, isn't screen sharing You know, Johnny, isn't screen sharing You know, Johnny, isn't screen sharing like a solved problem? Like why would I like a solved problem? Like why would I like a solved problem? Like why would I even consider something custom or a even consider something custom or a even consider something custom or a premium tool like Tupil? premium tool like Tupil? premium tool like Tupil? >> Yeah, I I asked the same question when I >> Yeah, I I asked the same question when I >> Yeah, I I asked the same question when I when I first heard about Tupil. Um, but when I first heard about Tupil. Um, but when I first heard about Tupil. Um, but what you realize is once you try Tupal, what you realize is once you try Tupal, what you realize is once you try Tupal, coding is a completely different coding is a completely different coding is a completely different experience than a meeting. It's experience than a meeting. It's experience than a meeting. It's interactive, it's fast-paced, there's interactive, it's fast-paced, there's interactive, it's fast-paced, there's exchange, and you know, it requires exchange, and you know, it requires exchange, and you know, it requires precision. Um, unlike a meeting. So, precision. Um, unlike a meeting. So, precision. Um, unlike a meeting. So, it's kind of like, you know, why would it's kind of like, you know, why would it's kind of like, you know, why would you buy a gaming mouse uh when a laptop you buy a gaming mouse uh when a laptop you buy a gaming mouse uh when a laptop trackpad works fine? I mean, you know, trackpad works fine? I mean, you know, trackpad works fine? I mean, you know, technically you can play Elden Ring with technically you can play Elden Ring with technically you can play Elden Ring with the DK Bongos. It's possible, but if you the DK Bongos. It's possible, but if you the DK Bongos. It's possible, but if you know, if you want to play it well, you know, if you want to play it well, you know, if you want to play it well, you want a nice controller. Um, so it's the want a nice controller. Um, so it's the want a nice controller. Um, so it's the same with Tupal. You know, people use same with Tupal. You know, people use same with Tupal. You know, people use Teams in Zoom for meetings because Teams in Zoom for meetings because Teams in Zoom for meetings because they're optimized for business they're optimized for business they're optimized for business conversations, but you know, we need conversations, but you know, we need conversations, but you know, we need something for pairing. And that's what something for pairing. And that's what something for pairing. And that's what Tupil is. Tupil is. Tupil is. just one click to jump on a call, to just one click to jump on a call, to just one click to jump on a call, to share your screen, to start annotating share your screen, to start annotating share your screen, to start annotating on that screen, and Tupil's optimized so on that screen, and Tupil's optimized so on that screen, and Tupil's optimized so that you can actually still compile your that you can actually still compile your that you can actually still compile your code while you're pairing. Um, so yeah, code while you're pairing. Um, so yeah, code while you're pairing. Um, so yeah, uh, I use Tupil and it just makes uh, I use Tupil and it just makes uh, I use Tupil and it just makes pairing so much nicer than when using pairing so much nicer than when using pairing so much nicer than when using generic screen sharing tools. And yeah.

generic screen sharing tools. And yeah. generic screen sharing tools. And yeah. >> Yeah, I think if I'm already spending >> Yeah, I think if I'm already spending >> Yeah, I think if I'm already spending like a ton of money on a fancy keyboard like a ton of money on a fancy keyboard like a ton of money on a fancy keyboard or fancy machine, I want the best tools or fancy machine, I want the best tools or fancy machine, I want the best tools for the job. Like Jedi builds their own for the job. Like Jedi builds their own for the job. Like Jedi builds their own lightsaber. And Tupil is definitely a lightsaber. And Tupil is definitely a lightsaber. And Tupil is definitely a lightsaber worth checking out. You can lightsaber worth checking out. You can lightsaber worth checking out. You can see them at tupil.app. see them at tupil.app. see them at tupil.app. It's the best remote pair programming It's the best remote pair programming It's the best remote pair programming app on both MacOSS and Windows. Hi, I'm app on both MacOSS and Windows. Hi, I'm app on both MacOSS and Windows. Hi, I'm Scott Hansselman. This is another Scott Hansselman. This is another Scott Hansselman. This is another episode of Hansel Minutes. Today I'm episode of Hansel Minutes. Today I'm episode of Hansel Minutes. Today I'm chatting with Cat. She's a junior chatting with Cat. She's a junior chatting with Cat. She's a junior software engineer and a recent computer software engineer and a recent computer software engineer and a recent computer science graduate. How are you? science graduate. How are you? science graduate. How are you? >> I'm doing well. How are you, Scott? >> I'm doing well. How are you, Scott? >> I'm doing well. How are you, Scott? >> I'm getting I'm getting there. I'm >> I'm getting I'm getting there. I'm >> I'm getting I'm getting there. I'm getting there. So, you you say junior. getting there. So, you you say junior. getting there. So, you you say junior. You say you're a junior software You say you're a junior software You say you're a junior software engineer. I've heard early in career. engineer. I've heard early in career. engineer. I've heard early in career. I've heard all kinds of different I've heard all kinds of different I've heard all kinds of different things, but you you lean into that. things, but you you lean into that. things, but you you lean into that. >> Yeah. Um >> Yeah. Um >> Yeah. Um I don't really think anything of it. I I don't really think anything of it. I I don't really think anything of it. I don't know if I'm supposed to. I don't. don't know if I'm supposed to. I don't. don't know if I'm supposed to. I don't. It is what I am. [laughter] It is what I am. [laughter] It is what I am. [laughter] >> Yeah. You getting started now. You're >> Yeah. You getting started now. You're >> Yeah. You getting started now. You're you're what, a year and a half of you're what, a year and a half of you're what, a year and a half of internships. How long have you been internships. How long have you been internships. How long have you been working? working? working? >> Uh 2 years and 4 months. >> Uh 2 years and 4 months. >> Uh 2 years and 4 months. >> Okay. So that's like half of five years, >> Okay. So that's like half of five years, >> Okay. So that's like half of five years, which is half a half a decade. I mean, I which is half a half a decade. I mean, I which is half a half a decade. I mean, I don't know. Like it can be spun. Does it don't know. Like it can be spun. Does it don't know. Like it can be spun. Does it feel like a lot or does it still feel feel like a lot or does it still feel feel like a lot or does it still feel like you just don't know anything?

like you just don't know anything? like you just don't know anything? >> Um, depends on the day. [laughter] >> Um, depends on the day. [laughter] >> Um, depends on the day. [laughter] >> Yeah, same. Same. >> Yeah, same. Same. >> Yeah, same. Same. >> Yeah, most days I feel competent. >> Yeah, most days I feel competent. >> Yeah, most days I feel competent. Some days I'm like, "Oh, yeah. Yeah, I Some days I'm like, "Oh, yeah. Yeah, I Some days I'm like, "Oh, yeah. Yeah, I know why they hired me. I'm I am a know why they hired me. I'm I am a know why they hired me. I'm I am a gift." gift." gift." [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] And then sometimes I'm just like And then sometimes I'm just like And then sometimes I'm just like I don't know. I I work at a really large I don't know. I I work at a really large I don't know. I I work at a really large company and there's so much context that company and there's so much context that company and there's so much context that you have to learn to be competent, you you have to learn to be competent, you you have to learn to be competent, you know, just like, oh, don't don't use know, just like, oh, don't don't use know, just like, oh, don't don't use this uh this thing, you know. I don't this uh this thing, you know. I don't this uh this thing, you know. I don't know. I don't know how to explain that, know. I don't know how to explain that, know. I don't know how to explain that, but it depends. but it depends. but it depends. >> Well, there's if I could help you with >> Well, there's if I could help you with >> Well, there's if I could help you with that because I work at a big company, that because I work at a big company, that because I work at a big company, too, and it's like it's not about this too, and it's like it's not about this too, and it's like it's not about this keyword or that keyword or this bit of keyword or that keyword or this bit of keyword or that keyword or this bit of syntax of Typescript or whatever. It's syntax of Typescript or whatever. It's syntax of Typescript or whatever. It's more like, "Oh, that system was built 10 more like, "Oh, that system was built 10 more like, "Oh, that system was built 10 years ago, and if you touch it this way, years ago, and if you touch it this way, years ago, and if you touch it this way, it'll fall over." And like, "Don't push it'll fall over." And like, "Don't push it'll fall over." And like, "Don't push that button, it'll blow everything up." that button, it'll blow everything up." that button, it'll blow everything up." Like, there's all these little things Like, there's all these little things Like, there's all these little things that are that are that are >> passed on sometimes with the oral >> passed on sometimes with the oral >> passed on sometimes with the oral tradition, and sometimes they're tradition, and sometimes they're tradition, and sometimes they're documented and like, "Oh, that was Jeff documented and like, "Oh, that was Jeff documented and like, "Oh, that was Jeff and he's not here anymore." Like, that and he's not here anymore." Like, that and he's not here anymore." Like, that kind of context. And you don't learn kind of context. And you don't learn kind of context. And you don't learn that in school.

that in school. that in school. >> Definitely not. Yeah. Yeah. I'm I'm so >> Definitely not. Yeah. Yeah. I'm I'm so >> Definitely not. Yeah. Yeah. I'm I'm so thankful that I have the opportunity to thankful that I have the opportunity to thankful that I have the opportunity to work professionally because this is just work professionally because this is just work professionally because this is just the best learning environment for all the best learning environment for all the best learning environment for all the things I didn't know in class. the things I didn't know in class. the things I didn't know in class. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And I get paid. >> And I get paid. >> And I get paid. >> Yeah. That the paid part is actually a >> Yeah. That the paid part is actually a >> Yeah. That the paid part is actually a benefit. So you you don't learn how to benefit. So you you don't learn how to benefit. So you you don't learn how to do this in class. like you most class do this in class. like you most class do this in class. like you most class things in the first two years or 3 years things in the first two years or 3 years things in the first two years or 3 years of of a four-year degree are like small of of a four-year degree are like small of of a four-year degree are like small things like tic-tac-toe or like rebuild things like tic-tac-toe or like rebuild things like tic-tac-toe or like rebuild an operating system an operating system an operating system >> and then towards the end it's like >> and then towards the end it's like >> and then towards the end it's like senior project time or maybe a small senior project time or maybe a small senior project time or maybe a small group project group project group project >> but it doesn't it feel like working on a >> but it doesn't it feel like working on a >> but it doesn't it feel like working on a team of 10 15 team of 10 15 team of 10 15 engineers is not done at all in school engineers is not done at all in school engineers is not done at all in school like did they set you up for success at like did they set you up for success at like did they set you up for success at all in school all in school all in school >> I mean to the best of their ability I >> I mean to the best of their ability I >> I mean to the best of their ability I would say I would say a lot of teachers would say I would say a lot of teachers would say I would say a lot of teachers that I excuse me professors that I that I excuse me professors that I that I excuse me professors that I >> professors >> professors >> professors >> you know had the opportunity to study >> you know had the opportunity to study >> you know had the opportunity to study under most of them kind of just went under most of them kind of just went under most of them kind of just went from bachelor's from bachelor's from bachelor's masters/phd masters/phd masters/phd and into teaching like um there were and into teaching like um there were and into teaching like um there were very few professors that had like very few professors that had like very few professors that had like extensive extensive extensive professional software engineering professional software engineering professional software engineering experience experience experience >> I am always gentle and careful about how >> I am always gentle and careful about how >> I am always gentle and careful about how I phrase this, but sometimes you just I phrase this, but sometimes you just I phrase this, but sometimes you just got to like take a stand. I I was an got to like take a stand. I I was an got to like take a stand. I I was an adjunct professor at two Oregon schools adjunct professor at two Oregon schools adjunct professor at two Oregon schools and I've guest lectured at multiple and I've guest lectured at multiple and I've guest lectured at multiple schools, including the one that you schools, including the one that you schools, including the one that you graduated from.

graduated from. graduated from. >> And I feel like there are professors out >> And I feel like there are professors out >> And I feel like there are professors out there that have never worked in there that have never worked in there that have never worked in industry. industry. industry. >> That doesn't mean that their their >> That doesn't mean that their their >> That doesn't mean that their their information is not valuable. It just information is not valuable. It just information is not valuable. It just means that they're missing arguably a means that they're missing arguably a means that they're missing arguably a large amount of context. Mhm. large amount of context. Mhm. large amount of context. Mhm. >> Would you prefer to have someone work in >> Would you prefer to have someone work in >> Would you prefer to have someone work in industry for 10 years and then go teach industry for 10 years and then go teach industry for 10 years and then go teach and would they have taught you and would they have taught you and would they have taught you differently? differently? differently? >> So for some things it's not necessary. >> So for some things it's not necessary. >> So for some things it's not necessary. Um, so I would say like the earlier sort Um, so I would say like the earlier sort Um, so I would say like the earlier sort of classes like um what is it discrete of classes like um what is it discrete of classes like um what is it discrete math or like you know just like the math or like you know just like the math or like you know just like the >> which you use every day at big co I'm >> which you use every day at big co I'm >> which you use every day at big co I'm sure [laughter] sure [laughter] sure [laughter] >> like I just I don't really I don't think >> like I just I don't really I don't think >> like I just I don't really I don't think everyone has to have that. But as we everyone has to have that. But as we everyone has to have that. But as we start getting towards the higher level start getting towards the higher level start getting towards the higher level classes, the ones right before you classes, the ones right before you classes, the ones right before you graduate, I do think it is very graduate, I do think it is very graduate, I do think it is very important important important or helpful because I think there are or helpful because I think there are or helpful because I think there are some things that professors may have put some things that professors may have put some things that professors may have put emphasis on that when you're out in the emphasis on that when you're out in the emphasis on that when you're out in the real world, not necessarily like who real world, not necessarily like who real world, not necessarily like who cares. Like that's not I don't know. I cares. Like that's not I don't know. I cares. Like that's not I don't know. I think there's think there's think there's Yeah, I I think it would have been Yeah, I I think it would have been Yeah, I I think it would have been helpful. That being said, I mean, helpful. That being said, I mean, helpful. That being said, I mean, there's only so much you can do unless there's only so much you can do unless there's only so much you can do unless you're actively in the workforce. So, I you're actively in the workforce. So, I you're actively in the workforce. So, I don't know. I don't know, Scott.

don't know. I don't know, Scott. don't know. I don't know, Scott. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> That's that's a great that's a great >> That's that's a great that's a great >> That's that's a great that's a great answer. I think I think the challenge is answer. I think I think the challenge is answer. I think I think the challenge is like, are they representing reality? Are like, are they representing reality? Are like, are they representing reality? Are they representing a past reality? Like I they representing a past reality? Like I they representing a past reality? Like I had professors in the '9s that had kind had professors in the '9s that had kind had professors in the '9s that had kind of like had dropped out of the industry. of like had dropped out of the industry. of like had dropped out of the industry. >> So then the question is, did they leave >> So then the question is, did they leave >> So then the question is, did they leave because they were frustrated or did they because they were frustrated or did they because they were frustrated or did they leave because they couldn't hack it? Did leave because they couldn't hack it? Did leave because they couldn't hack it? Did they do were they mad? they do were they mad? they do were they mad? >> Like I had one guy who was like at IBM >> Like I had one guy who was like at IBM >> Like I had one guy who was like at IBM and it he spent all this time just and it he spent all this time just and it he spent all this time just hating on IBM. Like we were in a hating on IBM. Like we were in a hating on IBM. Like we were in a compiler's class and all this guy is compiler's class and all this guy is compiler's class and all this guy is doing is telling me how IBM sucks. doing is telling me how IBM sucks. doing is telling me how IBM sucks. [clears throat] [clears throat] [clears throat] >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So it's like I don't I don't want to >> So it's like I don't I don't want to >> So it's like I don't I don't want to deal with his emotional baggage about deal with his emotional baggage about deal with his emotional baggage about being in industry. being in industry. being in industry. >> Yeah. I mean you So you know as you know >> Yeah. I mean you So you know as you know >> Yeah. I mean you So you know as you know I've I've had a whole other major before I've I've had a whole other major before I've I've had a whole other major before this. I I graduated from econ and I mean this. I I graduated from econ and I mean this. I I graduated from econ and I mean it's the same thing and most it's the same thing and most it's the same thing and most >> you have two degrees just for context >> you have two degrees just for context >> you have two degrees just for context you have both you have a BA and went you have both you have a BA and went you have both you have a BA and went back got a BS in computer science back got a BS in computer science back got a BS in computer science >> correct and so and you know while I was >> correct and so and you know while I was >> correct and so and you know while I was at my first um alma matter which is uh at my first um alma matter which is uh at my first um alma matter which is uh UC San Diego I worked at the career UC San Diego I worked at the career UC San Diego I worked at the career services center too like helping services center too like helping services center too like helping students get jobs and I I mean students get jobs and I I mean students get jobs and I I mean academia does the best that it it can academia does the best that it it can academia does the best that it it can But I I think it goes back to like, But I I think it goes back to like, But I I think it goes back to like, well, what are colleges for? Are well, what are colleges for? Are well, what are colleges for? Are colleges just job preparation houses or colleges just job preparation houses or colleges just job preparation houses or are they centers for learning? And so are they centers for learning? And so are they centers for learning? And so that's that's that's probably why I that's that's that's probably why I that's that's that's probably why I [snorts] struggle to answer this this

[snorts] struggle to answer this this [snorts] struggle to answer this this this question because depending on what this question because depending on what this question because depending on what you believe the purpose of a college you believe the purpose of a college you believe the purpose of a college institution is, your answer will vary. institution is, your answer will vary. institution is, your answer will vary. I've always said the the trit and pathy I've always said the the trit and pathy I've always said the the trit and pathy you go there to learn how to learn you go there to learn how to learn you go there to learn how to learn because I try to explain to my kids is because I try to explain to my kids is because I try to explain to my kids is that every single thing that I like I'm that every single thing that I like I'm that every single thing that I like I'm looking at my degree it's right there looking at my degree it's right there looking at my degree it's right there from OIT. from OIT. from OIT. >> Um everything except the language C is >> Um everything except the language C is >> Um everything except the language C is gone. Like every operating system, even gone. Like every operating system, even gone. Like every operating system, even the source control that I used, it's all the source control that I used, it's all the source control that I used, it's all dead. Like none of it exists. So like dead. Like none of it exists. So like dead. Like none of it exists. So like you at least hopefully used Git you at least hopefully used Git you at least hopefully used Git >> at school. >> at school. >> at school. >> I did. Yeah. >> I did. Yeah. >> I did. Yeah. >> But like it didn't exist for me. C# >> But like it didn't exist for me. C# >> But like it didn't exist for me. C# didn't exist, JavaScript didn't exist, didn't exist, JavaScript didn't exist, didn't exist, JavaScript didn't exist, like none of that stuff existed. So like like none of that stuff existed. So like like none of that stuff existed. So like why I didn't go there to learn those why I didn't go there to learn those why I didn't go there to learn those skills, skills, skills, >> right? I mean, I did all my work in I >> right? I mean, I did all my work in I >> right? I mean, I did all my work in I did all my word work in VI, did all my word work in VI, did all my word work in VI, >> which still exists, but I'm not going to >> which still exists, but I'm not going to >> which still exists, but I'm not going to use it. [laughter] use it. [laughter] use it. [laughter] >> So I I figured that I it's the only job >> So I I figured that I it's the only job >> So I I figured that I it's the only job that you're constantly learning and have that you're constantly learning and have that you're constantly learning and have to do study work like that you're not to do study work like that you're not to do study work like that you're not getting paid for.

getting paid for. getting paid for. >> Yeah. Yeah. I would argue that learning >> Yeah. Yeah. I would argue that learning >> Yeah. Yeah. I would argue that learning how to learn and also being comfortable how to learn and also being comfortable how to learn and also being comfortable with having to learn with having to learn with having to learn is more important than this specific set is more important than this specific set is more important than this specific set of the specific stack that you graduate of the specific stack that you graduate of the specific stack that you graduate with cuz otherwise I could have just with cuz otherwise I could have just with cuz otherwise I could have just went to a boot camp but I specifically went to a boot camp but I specifically went to a boot camp but I specifically wanted to go to wanted to go to wanted to go to a college. Okay, that's a great question a college. Okay, that's a great question a college. Okay, that's a great question because that leads up to a great because that leads up to a great because that leads up to a great question rather is that I've always felt question rather is that I've always felt question rather is that I've always felt boot camps work for great great for boot camps work for great great for boot camps work for great great for people who are like internally motivated people who are like internally motivated people who are like internally motivated and like I know I'm doing this and like I know I'm doing this and like I know I'm doing this >> just give me a little bit of structure >> just give me a little bit of structure >> just give me a little bit of structure and I will do this and I will do this and I will do this >> while colleges like figure out who you >> while colleges like figure out who you >> while colleges like figure out who you are and figure out what you want to do are and figure out what you want to do are and figure out what you want to do and explore different classes and I and explore different classes and I and explore different classes and I don't know I feel like there's it's good don't know I feel like there's it's good don't know I feel like there's it's good for autodidacts and for people who are for autodidacts and for people who are for autodidacts and for people who are self-motivated to go to a boot camp but self-motivated to go to a boot camp but self-motivated to go to a boot camp but I don't think I'd I don't think I'd I don't think I'd recommend a boot camp anymore. They're recommend a boot camp anymore. They're recommend a boot camp anymore. They're not rigorous enough. not rigorous enough. not rigorous enough. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, I considered boot camps.

I considered boot camps. I considered boot camps. >> Um, but >> Um, but >> Um, but and I Yeah, I always get in trouble when and I Yeah, I always get in trouble when and I Yeah, I always get in trouble when I talk about boot camps. I need I talk about boot camps. I need I talk about boot camps. I need >> No, I mean I don't want to dis This >> No, I mean I don't want to dis This >> No, I mean I don't want to dis This [laughter] is the thing, right? Nobody [laughter] is the thing, right? Nobody [laughter] is the thing, right? Nobody wants to disparage. Nobody wants wants to disparage. Nobody wants wants to disparage. Nobody wants >> people ride really hard for their boot >> people ride really hard for their boot >> people ride really hard for their boot camp. And I don't want to say like camp. And I don't want to say like camp. And I don't want to say like >> Nobody wants to disparage anybody. Yeah. >> Nobody wants to disparage anybody. Yeah. >> Nobody wants to disparage anybody. Yeah. But like for me, But like for me, But like for me, for me boot camps weren't the right for me boot camps weren't the right for me boot camps weren't the right solution for a couple of reasons. First, solution for a couple of reasons. First, solution for a couple of reasons. First, just throwing it out there. I am a black just throwing it out there. I am a black just throwing it out there. I am a black woman and that actually woman and that actually woman and that actually that actually came into my decision that actually came into my decision that actually came into my decision factor because I thought, look, as a factor because I thought, look, as a factor because I thought, look, as a black woman, I'm going to be held at a black woman, I'm going to be held at a black woman, I'm going to be held at a higher scrutiny level than my peers just higher scrutiny level than my peers just higher scrutiny level than my peers just because that's just how things work in because that's just how things work in because that's just how things work in the hiring market. I just feel like as a the hiring market. I just feel like as a the hiring market. I just feel like as a black woman, I need to black woman, I need to black woman, I need to >> prove myself harder than maybe someone >> prove myself harder than maybe someone >> prove myself harder than maybe someone who's, you know, who's, you know, who's, you know, >> not >> not >> not >> heavily represented in the tech industry >> heavily represented in the tech industry >> heavily represented in the tech industry already.

already. already. >> So, yeah, I I just >> So, yeah, I I just >> So, yeah, I I just >> How did a college though fix that? How >> How did a college though fix that? How >> How did a college though fix that? How how did a college versus a boot camp how did a college versus a boot camp how did a college versus a boot camp help make that better for you or make help make that better for you or make help make that better for you or make you feel more comfortable? Because I you feel more comfortable? Because I you feel more comfortable? Because I think that no matter what the lip think that no matter what the lip think that no matter what the lip service that the industry has paid service that the industry has paid service that the industry has paid towards like we don't care wherever you towards like we don't care wherever you towards like we don't care wherever you come from, we just want you to be come from, we just want you to be come from, we just want you to be skilled. skilled. skilled. >> People overwhelmingly hire people with >> People overwhelmingly hire people with >> People overwhelmingly hire people with college degrees. college degrees. college degrees. >> They hire people with pedigree, you >> They hire people with pedigree, you >> They hire people with pedigree, you know, and that's just kind of how it is. know, and that's just kind of how it is. know, and that's just kind of how it is. And so I think that boot camps work for And so I think that boot camps work for And so I think that boot camps work for worked for, you know, a an amount of worked for, you know, a an amount of worked for, you know, a an amount of people. I didn't want to I didn't want people. I didn't want to I didn't want people. I didn't want to I didn't want to risk it. I wanted to have the easiest to risk it. I wanted to have the easiest to risk it. I wanted to have the easiest hiring hiring hiring experience that I could possibly have experience that I could possibly have experience that I could possibly have given given my circumstances. And I knew given given my circumstances. And I knew given given my circumstances. And I knew it would be easier if I had a college it would be easier if I had a college it would be easier if I had a college background. background. background. >> My 17-year-old literally yesterday, cuz >> My 17-year-old literally yesterday, cuz >> My 17-year-old literally yesterday, cuz we're doing the Common Apps right now, we're doing the Common Apps right now, we're doing the Common Apps right now, he's a senior. We're doing like he's a senior. We're doing like he's a senior. We're doing like recommendations and Common App and all recommendations and Common App and all recommendations and Common App and all this kind of stuff. He says, "Do we do I this kind of stuff. He says, "Do we do I this kind of stuff. He says, "Do we do I even need to go to college?" I mean like even need to go to college?" I mean like even need to go to college?" I mean like college just mean like if you see college just mean like if you see college just mean like if you see someone's degree it just means this is a someone's degree it just means this is a someone's degree it just means this is a serious person and I was like I never serious person and I was like I never serious person and I was like I never heard that phrase like that. He's just heard that phrase like that. He's just heard that phrase like that. He's just like he met someone who like went to like he met someone who like went to like he met someone who like went to Cornell or something which would be a Cornell or something which would be a Cornell or something which would be a very intimidating thing like Cornell. I very intimidating thing like Cornell. I very intimidating thing like Cornell. I went to Portland Community College and went to Portland Community College and went to Portland Community College and you went to Cornell, you went to Cornell, you went to Cornell, >> you know what I mean? Like I went to PCC >> you know what I mean? Like I went to PCC >> you know what I mean? Like I went to PCC Sylvania. We always say that when you're Sylvania. We always say that when you're Sylvania. We always say that when you're like Portland Community College, you like Portland Community College, you like Portland Community College, you don't just say that you went to Portland don't just say that you went to Portland don't just say that you went to Portland Community College. You actually hit the Community College. You actually hit the Community College. You actually hit the specific campus because somehow Sylvania specific campus because somehow Sylvania specific campus because somehow Sylvania is like what more serious than

is like what more serious than is like what more serious than Tannisborn or like Cascade? I don't Tannisborn or like Cascade? I don't Tannisborn or like Cascade? I don't know. know. know. >> I went to PCG Sennsylvania. I'm very >> I went to PCG Sennsylvania. I'm very >> I went to PCG Sennsylvania. I'm very serious person. But my my son said he serious person. But my my son said he serious person. But my my son said he met someone and they were like, "Yeah, I met someone and they were like, "Yeah, I met someone and they were like, "Yeah, I went to blah blah blah Cornell." Or one went to blah blah blah Cornell." Or one went to blah blah blah Cornell." Or one guy, one of his buddies is at guy, one of his buddies is at guy, one of his buddies is at Northwestern. And he's like, "This just Northwestern. And he's like, "This just Northwestern. And he's like, "This just means you're a serious person." So I means you're a serious person." So I means you're a serious person." So I have to go to school for 4 years just to have to go to school for 4 years just to have to go to school for 4 years just to prove that I'm serious. prove that I'm serious. prove that I'm serious. >> And I'm like, >> And I'm like, >> And I'm like, >> kind of. Yeah. >> kind of. Yeah. >> kind of. Yeah. >> Like cuz I want to be like, "No, you go >> Like cuz I want to be like, "No, you go >> Like cuz I want to be like, "No, you go and learn." Like, "Yes, but if you're and learn." Like, "Yes, but if you're and learn." Like, "Yes, but if you're into that, like, you know, if you're a into that, like, you know, if you're a into that, like, you know, if you're a super jazz, yeah, go and take underwater super jazz, yeah, go and take underwater super jazz, yeah, go and take underwater basket. Weaving take all the electives. basket. Weaving take all the electives. basket. Weaving take all the electives. Have a blast. College is a joy. But Have a blast. College is a joy. But Have a blast. College is a joy. But also, if you just want to get a job, it also, if you just want to get a job, it also, if you just want to get a job, it is a crucial checklist. It's like, "Yep, is a crucial checklist. It's like, "Yep, is a crucial checklist. It's like, "Yep, >> did it." >> did it." >> did it." >> The thing is though, the first couple of >> The thing is though, the first couple of >> The thing is though, the first couple of years, they care. How many years in the years, they care. How many years in the years, they care. How many years in the biz until you think they stop caring, biz until you think they stop caring, biz until you think they stop caring, >> right? And for me, it was like 5 to 10 >> right? And for me, it was like 5 to 10 >> right? And for me, it was like 5 to 10 years. Maybe for you it'll be 10 to 15, years. Maybe for you it'll be 10 to 15, years. Maybe for you it'll be 10 to 15, but like at some point someone will stop but like at some point someone will stop but like at some point someone will stop caring once once you have a two-page caring once once you have a two-page caring once once you have a two-page resume resume resume >> or a three-page resume. >> or a three-page resume. >> or a three-page resume. >> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I've even heard like from friends And I've even heard like from friends And I've even heard like from friends who are in the program that you know who are in the program that you know who are in the program that you know they they were working professionally they they were working professionally they they were working professionally but they felt that not having the degree but they felt that not having the degree but they felt that not having the degree kind of held them back from kind of held them back from kind of held them back from maybe promotions you know getting into maybe promotions you know getting into maybe promotions you know getting into leadership positions and so they got the leadership positions and so they got the leadership positions and so they got the degree to get them degree to get them degree to get them >> to the next step. >> to the next step. >> to the next step. >> I did that. So >> I did that. So >> I did that. So >> Oh okay. I so I uh graduated high school >> Oh okay. I so I uh graduated high school >> Oh okay. I so I uh graduated high school in '92, in '92, in '92, >> but I didn't and I went to went to >> but I didn't and I went to went to >> but I didn't and I went to went to college immediately, college immediately, college immediately, >> but I didn't graduate with my four-year >> but I didn't graduate with my four-year >> but I didn't graduate with my four-year degree until 2003. degree until 2003. degree until 2003. >> So, it literally took 11 years of like >> So, it literally took 11 years of like >> So, it literally took 11 years of like working and going to school at night and working and going to school at night and working and going to school at night and credits expiring, which is like a whole credits expiring, which is like a whole credits expiring, which is like a whole thing. They don't tell you that thing. They don't tell you that thing. They don't tell you that >> like if like writing 121 apparently is >> like if like writing 121 apparently is >> like if like writing 121 apparently is not universal. It expires after seven not universal. It expires after seven not universal. It expires after seven years. You have to take it again. years. You have to take it again. years. You have to take it again. >> Like all of that kind of drama. And I >> Like all of that kind of drama. And I >> Like all of that kind of drama. And I did it because it's like I don't think did it because it's like I don't think did it because it's like I don't think they're gonna let me get senior engineer they're gonna let me get senior engineer they're gonna let me get senior engineer >> if I don't become, you know, get get a >> if I don't become, you know, get get a >> if I don't become, you know, get get a degree. But it was also imposter degree. But it was also imposter degree. But it was also imposter syndrome that it's like and even now syndrome that it's like and even now syndrome that it's like and even now like literally even now 30 years into my like literally even now 30 years into my like literally even now 30 years into my my my career, I'm thinking maybe a my my career, I'm thinking maybe a my my career, I'm thinking maybe a master's degree in like ML would help master's degree in like ML would help master's degree in like ML would help >> really >> really >> really >> just because it's like like I don't know >> just because it's like like I don't know >> just because it's like like I don't know all the stuff.

all the stuff. all the stuff. >> I mean, who does? >> I mean, who does? >> I mean, who does? >> Well, but this is the thing, right? It >> Well, but this is the thing, right? It >> Well, but this is the thing, right? It feels like everyone else knows all the feels like everyone else knows all the feels like everyone else knows all the stuff cuz I'm in those meetings with stuff cuz I'm in those meetings with stuff cuz I'm in those meetings with them and they're really smart. Yeah, I them and they're really smart. Yeah, I them and they're really smart. Yeah, I am very much a big well it feels like am very much a big well it feels like am very much a big well it feels like everyone else and I'm very fortunate to everyone else and I'm very fortunate to everyone else and I'm very fortunate to still be in contact with my my cohort still be in contact with my my cohort still be in contact with my my cohort and they're like no no and they're like no no and they're like no no [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] some people do some people don't. Like I some people do some people don't. Like I some people do some people don't. Like I was talking with a principal engineer at was talking with a principal engineer at was talking with a principal engineer at Microsoft named Safia Abdullah and she Microsoft named Safia Abdullah and she Microsoft named Safia Abdullah and she said the coolest thing. She said said the coolest thing. She said said the coolest thing. She said >> competence is a really good way to build >> competence is a really good way to build >> competence is a really good way to build your confidence. your confidence. your confidence. >> Yeah. And I was like, "Oh, I'm gonna put >> Yeah. And I was like, "Oh, I'm gonna put >> Yeah. And I was like, "Oh, I'm gonna put that on a t-shirt." Like that that is so that on a t-shirt." Like that that is so that on a t-shirt." Like that that is so true. Like being able to say, "No, I'm true. Like being able to say, "No, I'm true. Like being able to say, "No, I'm pretty sure I know how this works. I pretty sure I know how this works. I pretty sure I know how this works. I built it." Or whatever. You know, built it." Or whatever. You know, built it." Or whatever. You know, >> that's I mean, >> that's I mean, >> that's I mean, when you, you know, ask me about like, when you, you know, ask me about like, when you, you know, ask me about like, "Do I still feel like a junior?" "Do I still feel like a junior?" "Do I still feel like a junior?" >> There are days where I'm like, you know >> There are days where I'm like, you know >> There are days where I'm like, you know what? I'm I can feel in my bones that I what? I'm I can feel in my bones that I what? I'm I can feel in my bones that I really know how to do this because I the really know how to do this because I the really know how to do this because I the last couple of times I rocked it. So last couple of times I rocked it. So last couple of times I rocked it. So yeah, I feel pretty good about this. I yeah, I feel pretty good about this. I yeah, I feel pretty good about this. I don't like saying imposter syndrome. I I don't like saying imposter syndrome. I I don't like saying imposter syndrome. I I >> No, I know. I I've said it for years. I >> No, I know. I I've said it for years. I >> No, I know. I I've said it for years. I have it. But at the same time, it's like have it. But at the same time, it's like have it. But at the same time, it's like it depends on what I'm making.

it depends on what I'm making. it depends on what I'm making. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Like if if it's making web pages, >> Yeah. Like if if it's making web pages, >> Yeah. Like if if it's making web pages, >> I got that. Making [clears throat] cloud >> I got that. Making [clears throat] cloud >> I got that. Making [clears throat] cloud applications, I got that. But like I've applications, I got that. But like I've applications, I got that. But like I've got this altter behind me, which is like got this altter behind me, which is like got this altter behind me, which is like an old computer from the 70s. an old computer from the 70s. an old computer from the 70s. >> Yeah. And I am sitting here literally >> Yeah. And I am sitting here literally >> Yeah. And I am sitting here literally I'm holding up right now for those who I'm holding up right now for those who I'm holding up right now for those who are listening to this on audio like the are listening to this on audio like the are listening to this on audio like the printed guides. printed guides. printed guides. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Last night I was like 3 hours of going >> Last night I was like 3 hours of going >> Last night I was like 3 hours of going through like assembly and I'm like I through like assembly and I'm like I through like assembly and I'm like I don't know anything about computing. don't know anything about computing. don't know anything about computing. >> I know nothing. >> I know nothing. >> I know nothing. >> Uh but it's like but I do I'm just >> Uh but it's like but I do I'm just >> Uh but it's like but I do I'm just taking it out of the archives. So okay taking it out of the archives. So okay taking it out of the archives. So okay so maybe you and I know how to do web so maybe you and I know how to do web so maybe you and I know how to do web pages but we don't know how to do iOS pages but we don't know how to do iOS pages but we don't know how to do iOS apps. Or maybe we know how to do that, apps. Or maybe we know how to do that, apps. Or maybe we know how to do that, but we don't know how to make device but we don't know how to make device but we don't know how to make device drivers. drivers. drivers. >> But then it's like, well, but if I did >> But then it's like, well, but if I did >> But then it's like, well, but if I did for six months, for six months, for six months, >> then I would know that, too. So, >> then I would know that, too. So, >> then I would know that, too. So, >> yeah, exactly. >> yeah, exactly. >> yeah, exactly. >> Yeah. Hey friends, this is Scott. I want >> Yeah. Hey friends, this is Scott. I want >> Yeah. Hey friends, this is Scott. I want to take a moment to thank our new to take a moment to thank our new to take a moment to thank our new sponsor, Postman Flows. I was chatting sponsor, Postman Flows. I was chatting sponsor, Postman Flows. I was chatting with Rodri from Postman. You know, with Rodri from Postman. You know, with Rodri from Postman. You know, Rodri, what is one thing that you Rodri, what is one thing that you Rodri, what is one thing that you thought would be simple, but it turned thought would be simple, but it turned thought would be simple, but it turned out to be surprisingly hard. And what out to be surprisingly hard. And what out to be surprisingly hard. And what did you learn from it? I think my did you learn from it? I think my did you learn from it? I think my biggest learning has been that AI can biggest learning has been that AI can biggest learning has been that AI can only compensate what for what you don't only compensate what for what you don't only compensate what for what you don't know only so much. So if you really know only so much. So if you really know only so much. So if you really don't know what you're doing, you really don't know what you're doing, you really don't know what you're doing, you really can't wield AI in very powerful ways.

can't wield AI in very powerful ways. can't wield AI in very powerful ways. Particularly when you're composing APIs Particularly when you're composing APIs Particularly when you're composing APIs together or you're building UI, you can together or you're building UI, you can together or you're building UI, you can get to good outcomes from scratch. But get to good outcomes from scratch. But get to good outcomes from scratch. But if you're iterating, you really have to if you're iterating, you really have to if you're iterating, you really have to start understanding what's actually start understanding what's actually start understanding what's actually happening under the covers and you have happening under the covers and you have happening under the covers and you have to peel the layers of abstraction, at to peel the layers of abstraction, at to peel the layers of abstraction, at least where we are today. That may least where we are today. That may least where we are today. That may change in the future. And I found that change in the future. And I found that change in the future. And I found that visual languages, visual construction visual languages, visual construction visual languages, visual construction helps me quite a bit in that regard. Um, helps me quite a bit in that regard. Um, helps me quite a bit in that regard. Um, so if you're an expert, you're now world so if you're an expert, you're now world so if you're an expert, you're now world class, but if you're a newbie, um, then class, but if you're a newbie, um, then class, but if you're a newbie, um, then you're still a newbie, just with more you're still a newbie, just with more you're still a newbie, just with more dangerous capabilities. And that's where dangerous capabilities. And that's where dangerous capabilities. And that's where it's an exciting world for us. We have it's an exciting world for us. We have it's an exciting world for us. We have to make sure that we're building and to make sure that we're building and to make sure that we're building and empowering people with the right tools empowering people with the right tools empowering people with the right tools with the right guard rails so that they with the right guard rails so that they with the right guard rails so that they can create good things but not do harm can create good things but not do harm can create good things but not do harm with particularly when you connect them with particularly when you connect them with particularly when you connect them to APIs that can um send payments or do to APIs that can um send payments or do to APIs that can um send payments or do transactions on your behalf. One of the transactions on your behalf. One of the transactions on your behalf. One of the great tools for visualizing how easy it great tools for visualizing how easy it great tools for visualizing how easy it is to do this kind of work is Postman is to do this kind of work is Postman is to do this kind of work is Postman flows lets you orchestrate APIs, logic flows lets you orchestrate APIs, logic flows lets you orchestrate APIs, logic and data visually. You can check them and data visually. You can check them and data visually. You can check them out at postman.com/hancelinut. out at postman.com/hancelinut. out at postman.com/hancelinut. >> We've got a really great blog at >> We've got a really great blog at >> We've got a really great blog at catexellence.io IO and it's got just a catexellence.io IO and it's got just a catexellence.io IO and it's got just a ton of blog posts. I want to hit on a ton of blog posts. I want to hit on a ton of blog posts. I want to hit on a couple of them.

couple of them. couple of them. >> One of them I thought really stuck with >> One of them I thought really stuck with >> One of them I thought really stuck with me because it said learning to build me because it said learning to build me because it said learning to build without motivation. without motivation. without motivation. >> Yeah, that was a recent one. >> Yeah, that was a recent one. >> Yeah, that was a recent one. >> Yeah, because there's this like there's >> Yeah, because there's this like there's >> Yeah, because there's this like there's this not myth, but there's this kind of this not myth, but there's this kind of this not myth, but there's this kind of like ethos of you, you know, oh, we only like ethos of you, you know, oh, we only like ethos of you, you know, oh, we only hire people who are building 9 to5 and hire people who are building 9 to5 and hire people who are building 9 to5 and also building 5 to9 like they got to also building 5 to9 like they got to also building 5 to9 like they got to like like like >> they got to be excited about >> they got to be excited about >> they got to be excited about engineering. And I'm kind of guilty of engineering. And I'm kind of guilty of engineering. And I'm kind of guilty of that because I'm my hobbies are also that because I'm my hobbies are also that because I'm my hobbies are also building stuff at night, building stuff at night, building stuff at night, >> but I'm motivated by it because like >> but I'm motivated by it because like >> but I'm motivated by it because like that computer is interesting and I want that computer is interesting and I want that computer is interesting and I want to understand it. to understand it. to understand it. >> But [clears throat] you're building >> But [clears throat] you're building >> But [clears throat] you're building outside of work and you may not be you outside of work and you may not be you outside of work and you may not be you may not have as you say the juice to do may not have as you say the juice to do may not have as you say the juice to do it. it. it. >> Mhm. Yeah. I I know the ethos that >> Mhm. Yeah. I I know the ethos that >> Mhm. Yeah. I I know the ethos that you're talking about and there are you're talking about and there are you're talking about and there are people who can do the same thing 24 people who can do the same thing 24 people who can do the same thing 24 hours and not feel burnt out and good hours and not feel burnt out and good hours and not feel burnt out and good for them. I'm so happy for them. I'm for them. I'm so happy for them. I'm for them. I'm so happy for them. I'm just not one of those people. And it's just not one of those people. And it's just not one of those people. And it's not it's not really just software not it's not really just software not it's not really just software engineering. I used to be a writer engineering. I used to be a writer engineering. I used to be a writer before I was a software engineer and before I was a software engineer and before I was a software engineer and >> I used to blog in my free time. Once I >> I used to blog in my free time. Once I >> I used to blog in my free time. Once I became a full-time professional writer, became a full-time professional writer, became a full-time professional writer, I stopped writing because it was just I stopped writing because it was just I stopped writing because it was just too much. It was it I got burnt out.

too much. It was it I got burnt out. too much. It was it I got burnt out. Like I didn't want to look at words Like I didn't want to look at words Like I didn't want to look at words anymore. [laughter] anymore. [laughter] anymore. [laughter] And so it's it I kind of feel the same And so it's it I kind of feel the same And so it's it I kind of feel the same way. Like sometimes, you know, I'm work way. Like sometimes, you know, I'm work way. Like sometimes, you know, I'm work especially like I work on a on a very um especially like I work on a on a very um especially like I work on a on a very um I work on a an AI platform team and it I work on a an AI platform team and it I work on a an AI platform team and it it can be busy and it can be busy and it can be busy and sometimes sometimes sometimes it's it's not just 9 to5. Sometimes it it's it's not just 9 to5. Sometimes it it's it's not just 9 to5. Sometimes it requires a little bit more time than requires a little bit more time than requires a little bit more time than that. And at the end of that day, I that. And at the end of that day, I that. And at the end of that day, I don't like I don't want to look at code, don't like I don't want to look at code, don't like I don't want to look at code, you know, like I don't want I just you know, like I don't want I just you know, like I don't want I just >> I want to go play volleyball. I want to >> I want to go play volleyball. I want to >> I want to go play volleyball. I want to look at my my garden. I want to look at my my garden. I want to look at my my garden. I want to >> read a fantasy novel. Like sometimes I >> read a fantasy novel. Like sometimes I >> read a fantasy novel. Like sometimes I just don't want to do the same thing just don't want to do the same thing just don't want to do the same thing that I've been doing for eight hours. that I've been doing for eight hours. that I've been doing for eight hours. And I don't think that there should be And I don't think that there should be And I don't think that there should be anything wrong with that either. And I I anything wrong with that either. And I I anything wrong with that either. And I I would argue that it's completely normal. would argue that it's completely normal. would argue that it's completely normal. >> You say though that any progress is >> You say though that any progress is >> You say though that any progress is progress. Do you have to like study progress. Do you have to like study progress. Do you have to like study >> cuz you said you you feel junior, you >> cuz you said you you feel junior, you >> cuz you said you you feel junior, you feel early in career so far on some feel early in career so far on some feel early in career so far on some days.

days. days. >> Do you say you know I'm going to go and >> Do you say you know I'm going to go and >> Do you say you know I'm going to go and learn this thing for an hour? Do you sit learn this thing for an hour? Do you sit learn this thing for an hour? Do you sit down and assign like I put an hour on my down and assign like I put an hour on my down and assign like I put an hour on my calendar sometimes 9 to5 if I can do it calendar sometimes 9 to5 if I can do it calendar sometimes 9 to5 if I can do it >> where I'll say like I'm going to sit for >> where I'll say like I'm going to sit for >> where I'll say like I'm going to sit for lunch and I'm going to read this this lunch and I'm going to read this this lunch and I'm going to read this this technical paper. technical paper. technical paper. >> What's your studying like if you don't >> What's your studying like if you don't >> What's your studying like if you don't have the juice to do it? have the juice to do it? have the juice to do it? >> Yeah. So, >> Yeah. So, >> Yeah. So, right now I'm going through the full right now I'm going through the full right now I'm going through the full stack open, [snorts] which is something stack open, [snorts] which is something stack open, [snorts] which is something I've already done [clears throat] I've already done [clears throat] I've already done [clears throat] before, but it's been I'm a Java girl. before, but it's been I'm a Java girl. before, but it's been I'm a Java girl. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> Okay, nobody's perfect. >> And it's been so long since I've touched >> And it's been so long since I've touched React, since I've touched JavaScript, React, since I've touched JavaScript, React, since I've touched JavaScript, TypeScript that I just I want to feel TypeScript that I just I want to feel TypeScript that I just I want to feel more competent in it. So to me studying more competent in it. So to me studying more competent in it. So to me studying looks like just going through the looks like just going through the looks like just going through the exercises, going through the problems exercises, going through the problems exercises, going through the problems and like getting a refresher in it. and like getting a refresher in it. and like getting a refresher in it. Does that answer your question? Does that answer your question? Does that answer your question? >> So full stack open, you can see at >> So full stack open, you can see at >> So full stack open, you can see at fullstack open.com and it's actually the fullstack open.com and it's actually the fullstack open.com and it's actually the exact same course that was taught at a exact same course that was taught at a exact same course that was taught at a university in Finland.

university in Finland. university in Finland. >> Um and it's like they put the entire >> Um and it's like they put the entire >> Um and it's like they put the entire course online. It's very rigorous. course online. It's very rigorous. course online. It's very rigorous. >> How far into it are you? >> How far into it are you? >> How far into it are you? >> Part two. feel you feeling pretty good >> Part two. feel you feeling pretty good >> Part two. feel you feeling pretty good about it, about it, about it, >> you know? Yeah. I mean, like I said, >> you know? Yeah. I mean, like I said, >> you know? Yeah. I mean, like I said, like you read, I I do believe that any like you read, I I do believe that any like you read, I I do believe that any sort of progress is progress. And sort of progress is progress. And sort of progress is progress. And >> at the end of the day, like >> at the end of the day, like >> at the end of the day, like I still work a full-time. It's not like I still work a full-time. It's not like I still work a full-time. It's not like I'm I'm not developing any sort of I'm I'm not developing any sort of I'm I'm not developing any sort of software engineering skills. I work as a software engineering skills. I work as a software engineering skills. I work as a professional software engineer, but professional software engineer, but professional software engineer, but where I want to be, which is being more where I want to be, which is being more where I want to be, which is being more comfortable with comfortable with comfortable with open- source tooling and just being able open- source tooling and just being able open- source tooling and just being able to just get up and go with anything from to just get up and go with anything from to just get up and go with anything from scratch. Like I want to be able to do scratch. Like I want to be able to do scratch. Like I want to be able to do that. that. that. So that is why I take the time to do it. So that is why I take the time to do it. So that is why I take the time to do it. I don't have any pressing deadline to be I don't have any pressing deadline to be I don't have any pressing deadline to be where I want to be. It's just a desire.

where I want to be. It's just a desire. where I want to be. It's just a desire. I I do a thing where um I look at I I do a thing where um I look at I I do a thing where um I look at people's backgrounds and if I feel like people's backgrounds and if I feel like people's backgrounds and if I feel like a little bit of like career envy. I use a little bit of like career envy. I use a little bit of like career envy. I use that as like sort of signal as to okay that as like sort of signal as to okay that as like sort of signal as to okay this is something that I want in my this is something that I want in my this is something that I want in my life. Like what do I need to do to sort life. Like what do I need to do to sort life. Like what do I need to do to sort of get me on the path where I can do of get me on the path where I can do of get me on the path where I can do this? and intentionality. this? and intentionality. this? and intentionality. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And you know, just >> And you know, just >> And you know, just quieting my my jealousy monster. quieting my my jealousy monster. quieting my my jealousy monster. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> Yeah, I I can feel that. You've got >> Yeah, I I can feel that. You've got >> Yeah, I I can feel that. You've got another great blog called Career Cheat another great blog called Career Cheat another great blog called Career Cheat Codes for Junior Software Engineers, I Codes for Junior Software Engineers, I Codes for Junior Software Engineers, I would argue. And you wrote this you would argue. And you wrote this you would argue. And you wrote this you wrote this one a while back. It was on wrote this one a while back. It was on wrote this one a while back. It was on your one-year anniversary of of being a your one-year anniversary of of being a your one-year anniversary of of being a full-time full-time full-time >> professional engineer. I think these are >> professional engineer. I think these are >> professional engineer. I think these are cheat codes for all engineers. I would cheat codes for all engineers. I would cheat codes for all engineers. I would not I would not preface that you you say not I would not preface that you you say not I would not preface that you you say ship code fast like does that does that ship code fast like does that does that ship code fast like does that does that need to be said because you actually need to be said because you actually need to be said because you actually call out being glue by Tanya Riley and call out being glue by Tanya Riley and call out being glue by Tanya Riley and I'm hoping to have her on the podcast.

I'm hoping to have her on the podcast. I'm hoping to have her on the podcast. >> Yeah. Um I love that blog so much. Um I >> Yeah. Um I love that blog so much. Um I >> Yeah. Um I love that blog so much. Um I love her blog. She's she's so great. Um love her blog. She's she's so great. Um love her blog. She's she's so great. Um she's such a valuable resource for us. she's such a valuable resource for us. she's such a valuable resource for us. >> Baby proving your worth as a junior. >> Baby proving your worth as a junior. >> Baby proving your worth as a junior. Like everyone's like why am I here? What Like everyone's like why am I here? What Like everyone's like why am I here? What am I doing? You're saying try to do two am I doing? You're saying try to do two am I doing? You're saying try to do two to three impactful PRs every week. Like to three impactful PRs every week. Like to three impactful PRs every week. Like you're saying, shipping is the point. you're saying, shipping is the point. you're saying, shipping is the point. Like what do we do here? We ship Like what do we do here? We ship Like what do we do here? We ship >> pull >> pull >> pull >> requests. >> requests. >> requests. >> Yeah. Um, >> Yeah. Um, >> Yeah. Um, now that Okay, so now that I've been now that Okay, so now that I've been now that Okay, so now that I've been working for a little bit, [laughter] two working for a little bit, [laughter] two working for a little bit, [laughter] two to three PRs, I would probably to three PRs, I would probably to three PRs, I would probably >> I would go to pass me and be like, >> I would go to pass me and be like, >> I would go to pass me and be like, "Okay, girl." [laughter] "Okay, girl." [laughter] "Okay, girl." [laughter] >> Is that is that too much? I mean, are >> Is that is that too much? I mean, are >> Is that is that too much? I mean, are you one PR? The thing is like, what is a you one PR? The thing is like, what is a you one PR? The thing is like, what is a PR? Is it a bug fix or is it a full-on PR? Is it a bug fix or is it a full-on PR? Is it a bug fix or is it a full-on feature? feature? feature? >> Something that's impactful, right? Like >> Something that's impactful, right? Like >> Something that's impactful, right? Like who like who cares? And for me, PRs who like who cares? And for me, PRs who like who cares? And for me, PRs doesn't necessarily have to be code. doesn't necessarily have to be code. doesn't necessarily have to be code. That could be documentation. We do our That could be documentation. We do our That could be documentation. We do our we do our code or documentation as code. we do our code or documentation as code. we do our code or documentation as code. And And And anything that can be impactful. anything that can be impactful. anything that can be impactful. The reason why I called out glue work is The reason why I called out glue work is The reason why I called out glue work is because I found myself because I found myself because I found myself early on doing a lot of the sort of glue early on doing a lot of the sort of glue early on doing a lot of the sort of glue work that needed to be done just because work that needed to be done just because work that needed to be done just because it comes natural to me. like when I was it comes natural to me. like when I was it comes natural to me. like when I was in my previous uh career, I was a senior in my previous uh career, I was a senior in my previous uh career, I was a senior and so doing that glue work comes very and so doing that glue work comes very and so doing that glue work comes very natural to me. However, when it comes natural to me. However, when it comes natural to me. However, when it comes down to down to down to what how has what how has what how has cat impacted this team?

cat impacted this team? cat impacted this team? >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> They're looking for artifacts. >> They're looking for artifacts. >> They're looking for artifacts. >> And >> And >> And it's really hard to it's really hard to it's really hard to It's really hard to document glue work. It's really hard to document glue work. It's really hard to document glue work. It's really hard to document like, oh, I It's really hard to document like, oh, I It's really hard to document like, oh, I connected this person to this person. I connected this person to this person. I connected this person to this person. I made sure this person had contacts. I made sure this person had contacts. I made sure this person had contacts. I put everyone together in a room so we put everyone together in a room so we put everyone together in a room so we could quickly establish what we're even could quickly establish what we're even could quickly establish what we're even doing here. And all of that is doing here. And all of that is doing here. And all of that is important, but important, but important, but for juniors early on your career, etc., for juniors early on your career, etc., for juniors early on your career, etc., etc. Um, I would argue that that's not etc. Um, I would argue that that's not etc. Um, I would argue that that's not what you need to be doing because what you need to be doing because what you need to be doing because >> Yeah. that that's the argument of like >> Yeah. that that's the argument of like >> Yeah. that that's the argument of like is it activity or is it impact? is it activity or is it impact? is it activity or is it impact? >> Yeah. Yeah. And for juniors, >> Yeah. Yeah. And for juniors, >> Yeah. Yeah. And for juniors, my experience is that they're looking at my experience is that they're looking at my experience is that they're looking at easy impact like artifacts, like easy impact like artifacts, like easy impact like artifacts, like documentation, code, things that you documentation, code, things that you documentation, code, things that you have shipped that have made people have shipped that have made people have shipped that have made people happy. happy. happy. >> My team is very diverse in age and >> My team is very diverse in age and >> My team is very diverse in age and there's people a couple years out of there's people a couple years out of there's people a couple years out of school and people who've been doing this school and people who've been doing this school and people who've been doing this longer than me. And I, as a general longer than me. And I, as a general longer than me. And I, as a general rule, the rule on my team is that if you rule, the rule on my team is that if you rule, the rule on my team is that if you did a thing, did a thing, did a thing, >> there's a URL >> there's a URL >> there's a URL >> to back up that you did that thing.

>> to back up that you did that thing. >> to back up that you did that thing. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So if I give you a list of 10 things, >> So if I give you a list of 10 things, >> So if I give you a list of 10 things, >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> you should come back with 10 URLs. >> you should come back with 10 URLs. >> you should come back with 10 URLs. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> The URL could be a PR, it could be a >> The URL could be a PR, it could be a >> The URL could be a PR, it could be a Word doc, it could be a markdown file, Word doc, it could be a markdown file, Word doc, it could be a markdown file, it could be a even a comment on a code it could be a even a comment on a code it could be a even a comment on a code review. review. review. >> But and this is a general a generalized, >> But and this is a general a generalized, >> But and this is a general a generalized, you know, you know, you know, >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> rule of thumb, but like if it doesn't >> rule of thumb, but like if it doesn't >> rule of thumb, but like if it doesn't have a URL, it probably didn't happen. M have a URL, it probably didn't happen. M have a URL, it probably didn't happen. M >> now meetings are a squishy one, right? >> now meetings are a squishy one, right? >> now meetings are a squishy one, right? Because the thing about meetings is you Because the thing about meetings is you Because the thing about meetings is you have all this energy like oh very have all this energy like oh very have all this energy like oh very excited like a generated energy and excited like a generated energy and excited like a generated energy and everything like that and then the everything like that and then the everything like that and then the meeting just dissipates. meeting just dissipates. meeting just dissipates. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And never like what happened? Well, we >> And never like what happened? Well, we >> And never like what happened? Well, we had a meeting. It was great. The energy had a meeting. It was great. The energy had a meeting. It was great. The energy was the vibes were immaculate [laughter] was the vibes were immaculate [laughter] was the vibes were immaculate [laughter] >> at this meeting. >> at this meeting. >> at this meeting. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So make a thing like make do the docks. >> So make a thing like make do the docks. >> So make a thing like make do the docks. Do the docks. Do the docks. Do the docks. >> Yeah. or even like after the meeting >> Yeah. or even like after the meeting >> Yeah. or even like after the meeting something that I have been doing is something that I have been doing is something that I have been doing is especially like when we're meeting it's especially like when we're meeting it's especially like when we're meeting it's because one team needs to talk well for because one team needs to talk well for because one team needs to talk well for me one team needs to talk to another me one team needs to talk to another me one team needs to talk to another team and we need some sort of thing to team and we need some sort of thing to team and we need some sort of thing to understand where we're coming from like understand where we're coming from like understand where we're coming from like oh you want us to build this thing why oh you want us to build this thing why oh you want us to build this thing why what's the context what are the what's the context what are the what's the context what are the requirements etc so in those sorts of requirements etc so in those sorts of requirements etc so in those sorts of meetings if I'm doing them then there's meetings if I'm doing them then there's meetings if I'm doing them then there's going to be some sort of quick dock going to be some sort of quick dock going to be some sort of quick dock that we can all point to where everyone that we can all point to where everyone that we can all point to where everyone has the context, you can share it. We has the context, you can share it. We has the context, you can share it. We all know what we're doing. So, if you're all know what we're doing. So, if you're all know what we're doing. So, if you're going to have one of those meetings, going to have one of those meetings, going to have one of those meetings, there should be some sort of document.

there should be some sort of document. there should be some sort of document. Um, but if you cannot produce it, then Um, but if you cannot produce it, then Um, but if you cannot produce it, then maybe as a junior, maybe you don't need maybe as a junior, maybe you don't need maybe as a junior, maybe you don't need to be focusing your effort there. to be focusing your effort there. to be focusing your effort there. >> Yeah. One of my favorite uh cheat codes >> Yeah. One of my favorite uh cheat codes >> Yeah. One of my favorite uh cheat codes that you have here is review at least that you have here is review at least that you have here is review at least one PR a day. And it's not that cheat one PR a day. And it's not that cheat one PR a day. And it's not that cheat code that I think is the nugget of the code that I think is the nugget of the code that I think is the nugget of the gold nugget within this gold nugget within this gold nugget within this >> because yeah, you should probably be >> because yeah, you should probably be >> because yeah, you should probably be reviewing code as well as writing code. reviewing code as well as writing code. reviewing code as well as writing code. But what [clears throat] I liked was But what [clears throat] I liked was But what [clears throat] I liked was that you said juniors often feel like that you said juniors often feel like that you said juniors often feel like reviewing is intimidating. reviewing is intimidating. reviewing is intimidating. >> Like how do I even review? I don't know >> Like how do I even review? I don't know >> Like how do I even review? I don't know anything. anything. anything. >> So your hack is, which I think is great >> So your hack is, which I think is great >> So your hack is, which I think is great for seniors as well, is just ask for seniors as well, is just ask for seniors as well, is just ask questions if you don't get it. questions if you don't get it. questions if you don't get it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I'm like that that just clicked with >> And I'm like that that just clicked with >> And I'm like that that just clicked with me. I was just like, you're right. I me. I was just like, you're right. I me. I was just like, you're right. I would just ask a question. I think the would just ask a question. I think the would just ask a question. I think the fear is that they're going to flip the fear is that they're going to flip the fear is that they're going to flip the bozo bit on you and it's going to be bozo bit on you and it's going to be bozo bit on you and it's going to be like, like, like, >> "How do you not know that?" But like, >> "How do you not know that?" But like, >> "How do you not know that?" But like, how do you get past that? Because but how do you get past that? Because but how do you get past that? Because but but you if you ask a good question, but you if you ask a good question, but you if you ask a good question, you're not necessarily trying to spot you're not necessarily trying to spot you're not necessarily trying to spot mistakes. You're just trying to mistakes. You're just trying to mistakes. You're just trying to understand and then maybe the senior be understand and then maybe the senior be understand and then maybe the senior be like, "Oh, that's great. That's a great like, "Oh, that's great. That's a great like, "Oh, that's great. That's a great question." question." question." >> Yeah. 100%. Yeah. Like I definitely even >> Yeah. 100%. Yeah. Like I definitely even >> Yeah. 100%. Yeah. Like I definitely even now like I still can when there's a now like I still can when there's a now like I still can when there's a title like I can still kind of get like title like I can still kind of get like title like I can still kind of get like a little intimidating like oh gosh this a little intimidating like oh gosh this a little intimidating like oh gosh this >> like a fancy title like someone's title >> like a fancy title like someone's title >> like a fancy title like someone's title like their job title.

like their job title. like their job title. >> Yeah. like, okay, here I go. Going to >> Yeah. like, okay, here I go. Going to >> Yeah. like, okay, here I go. Going to review this principles, you know, PR review this principles, you know, PR review this principles, you know, PR like I hope I don't embarrass myself, like I hope I don't embarrass myself, like I hope I don't embarrass myself, you know, or just like my tech lead or you know, or just like my tech lead or you know, or just like my tech lead or something like that cuz like something like that cuz like something like that cuz like >> I don't know though. Like everyone's >> I don't know though. Like everyone's >> I don't know though. Like everyone's like everyone's like, "Oh, they're going like everyone's like, "Oh, they're going like everyone's like, "Oh, they're going to say like it's not like you're saying to say like it's not like you're saying to say like it's not like you're saying what does DNS stand for?" Like there's what does DNS stand for?" Like there's what does DNS stand for?" Like there's stuff you can you're not you're not stuff you can you're not you're not stuff you can you're not you're not asking questions that you couldn't asking questions that you couldn't asking questions that you couldn't Google. Why would they think you're Google. Why would they think you're Google. Why would they think you're dumb? dumb? dumb? >> Honest question. >> Honest question. >> Honest question. >> Why would they think I'm dumb? Um, like >> Why would they think I'm dumb? Um, like >> Why would they think I'm dumb? Um, like >> we all feel that. I feel that. You feel >> we all feel that. I feel that. You feel >> we all feel that. I feel that. You feel that. People who are listening have that. People who are listening have that. People who are listening have always afraid to like I don't want to always afraid to like I don't want to always afraid to like I don't want to look dumb in this meeting so I won't say look dumb in this meeting so I won't say look dumb in this meeting so I won't say anything. anything. anything. >> I mean I guess it's just human ego maybe >> I mean I guess it's just human ego maybe >> I mean I guess it's just human ego maybe just wanting to protect your ego and just wanting to protect your ego and just wanting to protect your ego and just scared of just scared of just scared of >> putting yourself out there. >> putting yourself out there. >> putting yourself out there. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But you know that you know the sort of >> But you know that you know the sort of >> But you know that you know the sort of thing like well I'm just asking thing like well I'm just asking thing like well I'm just asking questions to clarify my own questions to clarify my own questions to clarify my own understanding. Like that makes it understanding. Like that makes it understanding. Like that makes it >> it makes it less like oh I'm a it makes >> it makes it less like oh I'm a it makes >> it makes it less like oh I'm a it makes it less if I am pointing out something it less if I am pointing out something it less if I am pointing out something that should be corrected it makes it that should be corrected it makes it that should be corrected it makes it less like well you you know you got to less like well you you know you got to less like well you you know you got to do this and more so like hey interesting do this and more so like hey interesting do this and more so like hey interesting that you chose to do it this way like that you chose to do it this way like that you chose to do it this way like can you tell me more about the context can you tell me more about the context can you tell me more about the context of this or something like that of this or something like that of this or something like that >> maybe I am wrong or maybe you know that >> maybe I am wrong or maybe you know that >> maybe I am wrong or maybe you know that gives them the opportunity to think more gives them the opportunity to think more gives them the opportunity to think more about why they were doing it that way.

about why they were doing it that way. about why they were doing it that way. But when I ask, you know, with this sort But when I ask, you know, with this sort But when I ask, you know, with this sort of of of like perspective of learning, I think I like perspective of learning, I think I like perspective of learning, I think I think it's just good for everyone think it's just good for everyone think it's just good for everyone because it it makes it like an easy because it it makes it like an easy because it it makes it like an easy conversation and also I think I think conversation and also I think I think conversation and also I think I think job places should be places for job places should be places for job places should be places for learning. Like I think that's what we learning. Like I think that's what we learning. Like I think that's what we should be doing is learning and teaching should be doing is learning and teaching should be doing is learning and teaching each other each other each other >> and it makes it less of a >> and it makes it less of a >> and it makes it less of a um it's it's not as intimidating no um it's it's not as intimidating no um it's it's not as intimidating no matter what level you know when I'm matter what level you know when I'm matter what level you know when I'm approaching a PR and then people have approaching a PR and then people have approaching a PR and then people have you know come back and said you know I you know come back and said you know I you know come back and said you know I thought more about your question thought more about your question thought more about your question [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] and I decided why don't I just refactor and I decided why don't I just refactor and I decided why don't I just refactor this to make it more easier or people this to make it more easier or people this to make it more easier or people have said you know if it's not obvious have said you know if it's not obvious have said you know if it's not obvious when you're asking asking, then I've when you're asking asking, then I've when you're asking asking, then I've clearly overengineered this and need to clearly overengineered this and need to clearly overengineered this and need to make this more simpler. M make this more simpler. M make this more simpler. M >> and so I I honestly I think that's where >> and so I I honestly I think that's where >> and so I I honestly I think that's where juniors can kind of shine because I juniors can kind of shine because I juniors can kind of shine because I think that seniors think that seniors think that seniors because they have the experience because because they have the experience because because they have the experience because they have the context because they're they have the context because they're they have the context because they're operating at you know have been operating at you know have been operating at you know have been operating at this level I think they operating at this level I think they operating at this level I think they need someone like a junior to be like need someone like a junior to be like need someone like a junior to be like hey actually looking at this code for hey actually looking at this code for hey actually looking at this code for the first time without all the context the first time without all the context the first time without all the context that you have it's not easily clear to that you have it's not easily clear to that you have it's not easily clear to me what what's happening here and me what what's happening here and me what what's happening here and And that's that's helpful for them.

And that's that's helpful for them. And that's that's helpful for them. You're giving them, you know, that fresh You're giving them, you know, that fresh You're giving them, you know, that fresh pair of eyes that's that's needed. Let pair of eyes that's that's needed. Let pair of eyes that's that's needed. Let me ask this question as we close cuz I'm me ask this question as we close cuz I'm me ask this question as we close cuz I'm working on this paper with uh my buddy working on this paper with uh my buddy working on this paper with uh my buddy Mark and I have this theory that when we Mark and I have this theory that when we Mark and I have this theory that when we make apprenticeship, internship, make apprenticeship, internship, make apprenticeship, internship, internal company boot camps, we label internal company boot camps, we label internal company boot camps, we label the juniors with names like intern or the juniors with names like intern or the juniors with names like intern or apprentice. and you've done a lot of apprentice. and you've done a lot of apprentice. and you've done a lot of great internships at a lot of really great internships at a lot of really great internships at a lot of really great companies. great companies. great companies. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> I feel like by labeling the early and >> I feel like by labeling the early and >> I feel like by labeling the early and career person intern or apprentice, career person intern or apprentice, career person intern or apprentice, you're basically demanding that they you're basically demanding that they you're basically demanding that they transcend this label that you've given transcend this label that you've given transcend this label that you've given them of them of them of >> small >> small >> small >> and we should flip that so that the >> and we should flip that so that the >> and we should flip that so that the senior is given a title like proctor or senior is given a title like proctor or senior is given a title like proctor or preceptor and it is they are graded on preceptor and it is they are graded on preceptor and it is they are graded on how well they are bringing the next how well they are bringing the next how well they are bringing the next generation up. So there's a formality to generation up. So there's a formality to generation up. So there's a formality to it as opposed to like hey cat you're new it as opposed to like hey cat you're new it as opposed to like hey cat you're new here's an old guy named Scott who's here's an old guy named Scott who's here's an old guy named Scott who's going to judge you while you write code.

going to judge you while you write code. going to judge you while you write code. >> Yeah >> Yeah >> Yeah >> right kind of traditional internship you >> right kind of traditional internship you >> right kind of traditional internship you know like here you don't know any of know like here you don't know any of know like here you don't know any of these people or this code or the these people or this code or the these people or this code or the context. Enjoy. Good luck. I hope you context. Enjoy. Good luck. I hope you context. Enjoy. Good luck. I hope you survive. survive. survive. >> It's like okay we're going to take a bet >> It's like okay we're going to take a bet >> It's like okay we're going to take a bet on you for the next 1 2 3 years. you're on you for the next 1 2 3 years. you're on you for the next 1 2 3 years. you're going to sit and all of the things that going to sit and all of the things that going to sit and all of the things that I did over the last several decades of I did over the last several decades of I did over the last several decades of like running a site and feeling what like running a site and feeling what like running a site and feeling what it's like to run a live site and it's like to run a live site and it's like to run a live site and accidentally deleting production and accidentally deleting production and accidentally deleting production and like all the stuff that every good like all the stuff that every good like all the stuff that every good senior engineer [snorts] has done. senior engineer [snorts] has done. senior engineer [snorts] has done. >> You need you will have a safe place to >> You need you will have a safe place to >> You need you will have a safe place to do that. do that. do that. >> So, it's almost like I feel sometimes >> So, it's almost like I feel sometimes >> So, it's almost like I feel sometimes like electricians have more training like electricians have more training like electricians have more training than software engineers when it comes to than software engineers when it comes to than software engineers when it comes to like pairing up with elders and and like pairing up with elders and and like pairing up with elders and and doing new stuff. So, what do you think doing new stuff. So, what do you think doing new stuff. So, what do you think about a model like that that kind of about a model like that that kind of about a model like that that kind of flips internships on their head? flips internships on their head? flips internships on their head? >> Yeah, I mean, anything that gives >> Yeah, I mean, anything that gives >> Yeah, I mean, anything that gives less experienced people the opportunity less experienced people the opportunity less experienced people the opportunity to learn in a safe space and also gives to learn in a safe space and also gives to learn in a safe space and also gives senior people the incentive to teach. I senior people the incentive to teach. I senior people the incentive to teach. I think that part [laughter] think that part [laughter] think that part [laughter] because you know everyone's got because you know everyone's got because you know everyone's got deadlines, everyone's got their KPIs, deadlines, everyone's got their KPIs, deadlines, everyone's got their KPIs, whatever that they need to hit.

whatever that they need to hit. whatever that they need to hit. That being said, I think there the That being said, I think there the That being said, I think there the company has a responsibility company has a responsibility company has a responsibility to keep the next generation going, to to keep the next generation going, to to keep the next generation going, to always have a skilled next generation. always have a skilled next generation. always have a skilled next generation. And so, yeah, anything that does both of And so, yeah, anything that does both of And so, yeah, anything that does both of those things, I'm all for. those things, I'm all for. those things, I'm all for. >> I dig it. And I want to say I appreciate >> I dig it. And I want to say I appreciate >> I dig it. And I want to say I appreciate that you're early in career and you came that you're early in career and you came that you're early in career and you came on the podcast unapologetically. on the podcast unapologetically. on the podcast unapologetically. Sometimes when people say, Sometimes when people say, Sometimes when people say, >> "Hey, come on a podcast." They're like, >> "Hey, come on a podcast." They're like, >> "Hey, come on a podcast." They're like, "Oh, what