Innovation in Accessibility with Fable's Kate Kalcevich

hi I'm Scott Hanselman this is another hi I'm Scott Hanselman this is another episode of Hansel minutes today I'm episode of Hansel minutes today I'm episode of Hansel minutes today I'm chatting with Kate covich she's the head chatting with Kate covich she's the head chatting with Kate covich she's the head of accessibility Innovation at fable of accessibility Innovation at fable of accessibility Innovation at fable fable uh in fact does digital fable uh in fact does digital fable uh in fact does digital accessibility is powered by people with accessibility is powered by people with accessibility is powered by people with disabilities thank you so much for disabilities thank you so much for disabilities thank you so much for chatting with me today Kate thanks so chatting with me today Kate thanks so chatting with me today Kate thanks so much for having me Scott so I I took a much for having me Scott so I I took a much for having me Scott so I I took a look at the Fable website and learned look at the Fable website and learned look at the Fable website and learned about uh you know who uses Fable the about uh you know who uses Fable the about uh you know who uses Fable the accessibility leadership in the space accessibility leadership in the space accessibility leadership in the space that you're working in and I thought it that you're working in and I thought it that you're working in and I thought it was really interesting that on the was really interesting that on the was really interesting that on the homepage you hit right off the bat homepage you hit right off the bat homepage you hit right off the bat powered by people with disabilities powered by people with disabilities powered by people with disabilities you've even underlined the word people you've even underlined the word people you've even underlined the word people this is a very people Centric website this is a very people Centric website this is a very people Centric website that's the first impression I get when I that's the first impression I get when I that's the first impression I get when I look at the homepage for makeit fa.com look at the homepage for makeit fa.com look at the homepage for makeit fa.com yes definitely we have a community of yes definitely we have a community of yes definitely we have a community of people with disabilities who use people with disabilities who use people with disabilities who use assistive technology and they're at the assistive technology and they're at the assistive technology and they're at the heart of how we do accessibility so it's heart of how we do accessibility so it's heart of how we do accessibility so it's less about technology and Technical less about technology and Technical less about technology and Technical standards and more about how humans are standards and more about how humans are standards and more about how humans are interacting with that technology and the interacting with that technology and the interacting with that technology and the barriers that they're facing that's barriers that they're facing that's barriers that they're facing that's really interesting because I have done really interesting because I have done really interesting because I have done accessibility work myself but it was accessibility work myself but it was accessibility work myself but it was always very kind of I guess tool Centric always very kind of I guess tool Centric always very kind of I guess tool Centric you know we were always thinking about you know we were always thinking about you know we were always thinking about what plugin I could plug into the what plugin I could plug into the what plugin I could plug into the browser what app I could install in browser what app I could install in browser what app I could install in Windows that would just solve the Windows that would just solve the Windows that would just solve the problem and I I I think as a person that problem and I I I think as a person that problem and I I I think as a person that does does not need to use any assisted does does not need to use any assisted does does not need to use any assisted technology other than just bigger fonts technology other than just bigger fonts technology other than just bigger fonts you know like I I'm all about zooming in you know like I I'm all about zooming in you know like I I'm all about zooming in on stuff but for the most part I don't on stuff but for the most part I don't on stuff but for the most part I don't even think of that as being an assisted even think of that as being an assisted even think of that as being an assisted technology I'm realizing that I was not technology I'm realizing that I was not technology I'm realizing that I was not being very people Centric in my thinking

being very people Centric in my thinking being very people Centric in my thinking about how I interact with the machine I about how I interact with the machine I about how I interact with the machine I want tools it sounds like I need to get want tools it sounds like I need to get want tools it sounds like I need to get my head right well I mean a lot of my head right well I mean a lot of my head right well I mean a lot of people start that way I worked in people start that way I worked in people start that way I worked in government for two decades and we were government for two decades and we were government for two decades and we were very tool and Technology centered as very tool and Technology centered as very tool and Technology centered as well well well um especially in the early days we um especially in the early days we um especially in the early days we didn't have access to people with didn't have access to people with didn't have access to people with disabilities we didn't have access to disabilities we didn't have access to disabilities we didn't have access to users at all because I've been doing users at all because I've been doing users at all because I've been doing this for more than 20 years so I started this for more than 20 years so I started this for more than 20 years so I started well before user research was really a well before user research was really a well before user research was really a popular thing to do and so everything popular thing to do and so everything popular thing to do and so everything was tool Centric and tools are important was tool Centric and tools are important was tool Centric and tools are important as part of the process because it's not as part of the process because it's not as part of the process because it's not just about people you've got a volume just about people you've got a volume just about people you've got a volume most of the teams that we work with are most of the teams that we work with are most of the teams that we work with are working on really large sites multiple working on really large sites multiple working on really large sites multiple sites multiple apps and so tools can sites multiple apps and so tools can sites multiple apps and so tools can really help reduce some of the workload really help reduce some of the workload really help reduce some of the workload in accessib in accessib in accessib so they're an important part of the so they're an important part of the so they're an important part of the puzzle yeah I think it was about 20 puzzle yeah I think it was about 20 puzzle yeah I think it was about 20 years ago when uh I think it was section years ago when uh I think it was section years ago when uh I think it was section 508 which was a law that indicated that 508 which was a law that indicated that 508 which was a law that indicated that Banks and certain websites needed to be Banks and certain websites needed to be Banks and certain websites needed to be accessible uh and they had some very accessible uh and they had some very accessible uh and they had some very basic measurements for that kind of basic measurements for that kind of basic measurements for that kind of stuff and we my company went and stuff and we my company went and stuff and we my company went and contracted with a group called The contracted with a group called The contracted with a group called The Associated blind of New York where they Associated blind of New York where they Associated blind of New York where they hired blind folks to basically use our hired blind folks to basically use our hired blind folks to basically use our website and then complain uh that was my website and then complain uh that was my website and then complain uh that was my first interaction to the basics of human first interaction to the basics of human first interaction to the basics of human focused uh and people focused disability focused uh and people focused disability focused uh and people focused disability and accessibility yeah I had a similar and accessibility yeah I had a similar and accessibility yeah I had a similar interaction but it was actually through interaction but it was actually through interaction but it was actually through Fable because before I worked for fable Fable because before I worked for fable Fable because before I worked for fable I was a customer of fable so that's it I was a customer of fable so that's it I was a customer of fable so that's it that's really where it all started and that's really where it all started and that's really where it all started and so I was working in government and we

so I was working in government and we so I was working in government and we had a contract with Fable they were a had a contract with Fable they were a had a contract with Fable they were a vendor of ours and we were using them to vendor of ours and we were using them to vendor of ours and we were using them to test our apps our mobile apps and our test our apps our mobile apps and our test our apps our mobile apps and our web apps for accessibility so that's web apps for accessibility so that's web apps for accessibility so that's where I really got into accessibility where I really got into accessibility where I really got into accessibility testing with people with disabilities so testing with people with disabilities so testing with people with disabilities so you you were a customer and then you you you were a customer and then you you you were a customer and then you said this is so cool I want to join the said this is so cool I want to join the said this is so cool I want to join the company Yes actually that's exactly what company Yes actually that's exactly what company Yes actually that's exactly what happened it has been such a great change happened it has been such a great change happened it has been such a great change in my career Direction you know in my career Direction you know in my career Direction you know obviously shifting from government to obviously shifting from government to obviously shifting from government to private sector is a big leap and then private sector is a big leap and then private sector is a big leap and then just shifting from this really just shifting from this really just shifting from this really technically oriented kind of technically oriented kind of technically oriented kind of bureaucratic way of working to a much bureaucratic way of working to a much bureaucratic way of working to a much more rapid pace of change more more rapid pace of change more more rapid pace of change more Innovative way of working has been Innovative way of working has been Innovative way of working has been really really almost feels like a second really really almost feels like a second really really almost feels like a second career for me that's cool you were the career for me that's cool you were the career for me that's cool you were the digital accessibility lead at Canada digital accessibility lead at Canada digital accessibility lead at Canada Post you worked for the Ontario Ministry Post you worked for the Ontario Ministry Post you worked for the Ontario Ministry all throughout government was it always all throughout government was it always all throughout government was it always accessibility I know you do ux work but accessibility I know you do ux work but accessibility I know you do ux work but when did it go from being ux to being when did it go from being ux to being when did it go from being ux to being accessible ux for you well I it didn't accessible ux for you well I it didn't accessible ux for you well I it didn't always start as accessibility I was a always start as accessibility I was a always start as accessibility I was a web designer this was the mid 90s when I web designer this was the mid 90s when I web designer this was the mid 90s when I really started building websites so really started building websites so really started building websites so there wasn't even user experience back there wasn't even user experience back there wasn't even user experience back then and I got into access accessibility then and I got into access accessibility then and I got into access accessibility when I joined the government because when I joined the government because when I joined the government because similar to you they introduced similar to you they introduced similar to you they introduced legislation about accessibility and that legislation about accessibility and that legislation about accessibility and that the government websites had to be made the government websites had to be made the government websites had to be made accessible so that's when I really accessible so that's when I really accessible so that's when I really started thinking about it but it was started thinking about it but it was started thinking about it but it was never the primary focus of my job at the never the primary focus of my job at the never the primary focus of my job at the beginnings I was always just a beginnings I was always just a beginnings I was always just a practitioner a designer a front-end practitioner a designer a front-end practitioner a designer a front-end developer and then I had learned so much

developer and then I had learned so much developer and then I had learned so much about accessibility along the way that I about accessibility along the way that I about accessibility along the way that I started teaching others about it and started teaching others about it and started teaching others about it and then eventually it just became a then eventually it just became a then eventually it just became a leadership thing and a teaching thing leadership thing and a teaching thing leadership thing and a teaching thing and just sharing the knowledge and and just sharing the knowledge and and just sharing the knowledge and trying to really multiply the impact trying to really multiply the impact trying to really multiply the impact that I can have so when you think about that I can have so when you think about that I can have so when you think about multiplying impact there's 8 billion multiplying impact there's 8 billion multiplying impact there's 8 billion people on the planet when I was people on the planet when I was people on the planet when I was researching this there are a billion researching this there are a billion researching this there are a billion people quote unquote with people quote unquote with people quote unquote with disabilities that's a lot one in8 is a disabilities that's a lot one in8 is a disabilities that's a lot one in8 is a huge number and a lot of these V are huge number and a lot of these V are huge number and a lot of these V are invisible disabilities you can't tell uh invisible disabilities you can't tell uh invisible disabilities you can't tell uh I can't detect it in their browser when I can't detect it in their browser when I can't detect it in their browser when they show up and I can't detect it when they show up and I can't detect it when they show up and I can't detect it when I look at someone but one and eight is a I look at someone but one and eight is a I look at someone but one and eight is a big number it is and in some cases it's big number it is and in some cases it's big number it is and in some cases it's a higher number depending on which a higher number depending on which a higher number depending on which region you're in I know in Ontario region you're in I know in Ontario region you're in I know in Ontario Canada where I am it's closer to one in Canada where I am it's closer to one in Canada where I am it's closer to one in four and it it depends on how you four and it it depends on how you four and it it depends on how you measure disability too depending on how measure disability too depending on how measure disability too depending on how the surveys are done and what questions the surveys are done and what questions the surveys are done and what questions you're asking certain governments you're asking certain governments you're asking certain governments consider some things to be a disability consider some things to be a disability consider some things to be a disability and other things not and so that can and other things not and so that can and other things not and so that can change how the numbers work but it's change how the numbers work but it's change how the numbers work but it's it's a much bigger number than people it's a much bigger number than people it's a much bigger number than people think yeah that got me thinking because think yeah that got me thinking because think yeah that got me thinking because on paper when I'm filling out forms as a on paper when I'm filling out forms as a on paper when I'm filling out forms as a type 1 diabetic of nearly 30 years uh I type 1 diabetic of nearly 30 years uh I type 1 diabetic of nearly 30 years uh I am disabled but other than again just am disabled but other than again just am disabled but other than again just using accessibility tools to zoom and using accessibility tools to zoom and using accessibility tools to zoom and improve my vision I feel a little bit of improve my vision I feel a little bit of improve my vision I feel a little bit of like I don't know if the word is like like I don't know if the word is like like I don't know if the word is like disability low disability low disability low self-esteem like I shouldn't or self-esteem like I shouldn't or self-esteem like I shouldn't or imposture syndrome like I'm not disabled imposture syndrome like I'm not disabled imposture syndrome like I'm not disabled until I really need some orange juice

until I really need some orange juice until I really need some orange juice and then I'm you know sitting on the and then I'm you know sitting on the and then I'm you know sitting on the side of the road disabled you know but I side of the road disabled you know but I side of the road disabled you know but I don't want to claim that because I am don't want to claim that because I am don't want to claim that because I am able-bodied and able to stand and move able-bodied and able to stand and move able-bodied and able to stand and move around around around I hear that a lot especially from people I hear that a lot especially from people I hear that a lot especially from people with invisible disabilities even myself with invisible disabilities even myself with invisible disabilities even myself so I identify a disabled I wear hearing so I identify a disabled I wear hearing so I identify a disabled I wear hearing and both of my ears are really small and both of my ears are really small and both of my ears are really small even turning my head a bit to the side even turning my head a bit to the side even turning my head a bit to the side and you really can't see them they're in and you really can't see them they're in and you really can't see them they're in my ear canal and I've worn them since I my ear canal and I've worn them since I my ear canal and I've worn them since I was 6 years old growing up I wasn't was 6 years old growing up I wasn't was 6 years old growing up I wasn't really treated differently except being really treated differently except being really treated differently except being in speech therapy um because I got my in speech therapy um because I got my in speech therapy um because I got my hearing in so late I I had to learn how hearing in so late I I had to learn how hearing in so late I I had to learn how to speak without um what we call a deaf to speak without um what we call a deaf to speak without um what we call a deaf accent so lots of working on a list and accent so lots of working on a list and accent so lots of working on a list and stuff like that and so I didn't really stuff like that and so I didn't really stuff like that and so I didn't really hang out with other people with hang out with other people with hang out with other people with disabilities there weren't very many in disabilities there weren't very many in disabilities there weren't very many in my school so I never really identify the my school so I never really identify the my school so I never really identify the disabled either even though I do have a disabled either even though I do have a disabled either even though I do have a moderate to severe hearing loss so it moderate to severe hearing loss so it moderate to severe hearing loss so it it's quite common and I think because I it's quite common and I think because I it's quite common and I think because I talk about my disability so much as part talk about my disability so much as part talk about my disability so much as part of my job and and just doing a lot of of my job and and just doing a lot of of my job and and just doing a lot of public speaking people are more open public speaking people are more open public speaking people are more open with me about that so I heard that story with me about that so I heard that story with me about that so I heard that story a lot um that I don't really identify as a lot um that I don't really identify as a lot um that I don't really identify as disabled and you know the one group that disabled and you know the one group that disabled and you know the one group that has the highest prevalence of disability has the highest prevalence of disability has the highest prevalence of disability is seniors so it's one and two over the is seniors so it's one and two over the is seniors so it's one and two over the age of 65 but almost none of them age of 65 but almost none of them age of 65 but almost none of them identify disabled they just think I'm identify disabled they just think I'm identify disabled they just think I'm getting old which they are but they're getting old which they are but they're getting old which they are but they're also losing some of their function their also losing some of their function their also losing some of their function their eyesight their hearing their mobility eyesight their hearing their mobility eyesight their hearing their mobility and so that counts with disability you and so that counts with disability you and so that counts with disability you know that is really really interesting know that is really really interesting know that is really really interesting because I just turned 50 last week for

because I just turned 50 last week for because I just turned 50 last week for those who can't see me I'm wearing those who can't see me I'm wearing those who can't see me I'm wearing readers now so I have to wear you know readers now so I have to wear you know readers now so I have to wear you know reading glasses full-time I mentioned reading glasses full-time I mentioned reading glasses full-time I mentioned before that I do zoom in diabetes is the before that I do zoom in diabetes is the before that I do zoom in diabetes is the leading cause of blindness and I've had leading cause of blindness and I've had leading cause of blindness and I've had eye surgery but I do chalk that up to eye surgery but I do chalk that up to eye surgery but I do chalk that up to just getting older but then to your just getting older but then to your just getting older but then to your definition that would mean that we are definition that would mean that we are definition that would mean that we are all going to be disabled if we simply all going to be disabled if we simply all going to be disabled if we simply wait long enough yeah definitely and not wait long enough yeah definitely and not wait long enough yeah definitely and not only do we all agent to disability but only do we all agent to disability but only do we all agent to disability but there's also instances of temporary there's also instances of temporary there's also instances of temporary disability you break your arm or maybe disability you break your arm or maybe disability you break your arm or maybe you have like laser eye surgery and you have like laser eye surgery and you have like laser eye surgery and there's a while where you're wearing there's a while where you're wearing there's a while where you're wearing these glasses and everything blurry and these glasses and everything blurry and these glasses and everything blurry and then there's situational limitations then there's situational limitations then there's situational limitations even if you're not disabled things like even if you're not disabled things like even if you're not disabled things like accessibility can benefit folks one of accessibility can benefit folks one of accessibility can benefit folks one of the best examples if you're ever the best examples if you're ever the best examples if you're ever outdoors and it's a sunny day and you're outdoors and it's a sunny day and you're outdoors and it's a sunny day and you're trying to check your cell phone and trying to check your cell phone and trying to check your cell phone and there's just so much glare and if you there's just so much glare and if you there's just so much glare and if you don't have really good contrast on the don't have really good contrast on the don't have really good contrast on the screen you just can't see you know uh screen you just can't see you know uh screen you just can't see you know uh I'm trying to think about me feeling not I'm trying to think about me feeling not I'm trying to think about me feeling not disabled while someone could be fully disabled while someone could be fully disabled while someone could be fully you know completely blind or have tunnel you know completely blind or have tunnel you know completely blind or have tunnel vision all the different the Spectrum vision all the different the Spectrum vision all the different the Spectrum you know the slider bar to use a user you know the slider bar to use a user you know the slider bar to use a user interface analogy of disability it would interface analogy of disability it would interface analogy of disability it would be really challenging in to measure be really challenging in to measure be really challenging in to measure whether or not my website was an whether or not my website was an whether or not my website was an accessible website and then if my boss accessible website and then if my boss accessible website and then if my boss calls me the suit says hey make sure the calls me the suit says hey make sure the calls me the suit says hey make sure the website's accessible that business website's accessible that business website's accessible that business person's level It's A checkbox person's level It's A checkbox person's level It's A checkbox Accessible not accessible and a reality Accessible not accessible and a reality Accessible not accessible and a reality it's a slider bar varying levels of it's a slider bar varying levels of it's a slider bar varying levels of accessible where would I even start to accessible where would I even start to accessible where would I even start to describe like a you know a kpi a key

describe like a you know a kpi a key describe like a you know a kpi a key performance indicator here if my boss performance indicator here if my boss performance indicator here if my boss just thinks about it as a Boolean well just thinks about it as a Boolean well just thinks about it as a Boolean well because to your earlier Point most because to your earlier Point most because to your earlier Point most people think of it in terms terms of people think of it in terms terms of people think of it in terms terms of legislation or legal compliance that's legislation or legal compliance that's legislation or legal compliance that's where most people were introduced to where most people were introduced to where most people were introduced to accessibility so people tend to think of accessibility so people tend to think of accessibility so people tend to think of accessibility as compliance with a set accessibility as compliance with a set accessibility as compliance with a set of Standards but to your point it's of Standards but to your point it's of Standards but to your point it's really hard to measure that you know really hard to measure that you know really hard to measure that you know you've got multiple websites multiple you've got multiple websites multiple you've got multiple websites multiple products multiple apps and multiple products multiple apps and multiple products multiple apps and multiple screens and Pages across all of them to screens and Pages across all of them to screens and Pages across all of them to try to boil down accessibility into a try to boil down accessibility into a try to boil down accessibility into a yes no is impossible and if you do you yes no is impossible and if you do you yes no is impossible and if you do you know nobody's ever going to be yes there know nobody's ever going to be yes there know nobody's ever going to be yes there there's no way to be perfectly there's no way to be perfectly there's no way to be perfectly accessible at all time especially if accessible at all time especially if accessible at all time especially if you're continually updating and you're continually updating and you're continually updating and developing you've got teams working on developing you've got teams working on developing you've got teams working on websites and app constantly they're websites and app constantly they're websites and app constantly they're going to miss something somewhere so going to miss something somewhere so going to miss something somewhere so anyone who tries to use this binary anyone who tries to use this binary anyone who tries to use this binary accessible not accessible it's just a accessible not accessible it's just a accessible not accessible it's just a false narrative that's not ever going to false narrative that's not ever going to false narrative that's not ever going to work and the problem with that is it work and the problem with that is it work and the problem with that is it also doesn't tell you why a product is also doesn't tell you why a product is also doesn't tell you why a product is or isn't accessible and how accessible or isn't accessible and how accessible or isn't accessible and how accessible that product is or isn't and if it's that product is or isn't and if it's that product is or isn't and if it's getting better or worse doesn't that getting better or worse doesn't that getting better or worse doesn't that mean that I'm going to have to spend a mean that I'm going to have to spend a mean that I'm going to have to spend a lot of time like educating executive lot of time like educating executive lot of time like educating executive leadership and they may not be leadership and they may not be leadership and they may not be interested in in the granularity and the interested in in the granularity and the interested in in the granularity and the detail that I'm going to need to share detail that I'm going to need to share detail that I'm going to need to share with them possibly I mean executive with them possibly I mean executive with them possibly I mean executive buyin is really important for buyin is really important for buyin is really important for accessibility it's really hard to do accessibility it's really hard to do accessibility it's really hard to do accessibility at a large organization as accessibility at a large organization as accessibility at a large organization as a Grassroots initiative because you're a Grassroots initiative because you're a Grassroots initiative because you're not going to get the budget and the not going to get the budget and the not going to get the budget and the backing to do it but I think the backing to do it but I think the backing to do it but I think the conversation a lot of Executives want to

conversation a lot of Executives want to conversation a lot of Executives want to hear you know what's the return on hear you know what's the return on hear you know what's the return on investment but when you start thinking investment but when you start thinking investment but when you start thinking about those numbers that we talked about about those numbers that we talked about about those numbers that we talked about and how big the opportunity is there's and how big the opportunity is there's and how big the opportunity is there's this huge Market of people with this huge Market of people with this huge Market of people with disabilities and they can be very loyal disabilities and they can be very loyal disabilities and they can be very loyal to company that take their needs into to company that take their needs into to company that take their needs into account and make their digital products account and make their digital products account and make their digital products accessible so being able to tap into accessible so being able to tap into accessible so being able to tap into that market and there's also a human that market and there's also a human that market and there's also a human element I find Executives once they see element I find Executives once they see element I find Executives once they see somebody struggling with interacting somebody struggling with interacting somebody struggling with interacting with their product it really helps them with their product it really helps them with their product it really helps them to understand the problem and in a human to understand the problem and in a human to understand the problem and in a human you know centered way as opposed to a you know centered way as opposed to a you know centered way as opposed to a numeric that right there that moment of numeric that right there that moment of numeric that right there that moment of empathy if you can get that to click in empathy if you can get that to click in empathy if you can get that to click in a boss's head or a Leader's head is so a boss's head or a Leader's head is so a boss's head or a Leader's head is so important when we were trying to make important when we were trying to make important when we were trying to make our websites accessible for the blind a our websites accessible for the blind a our websites accessible for the blind a lot of the engineers could lot of the engineers could lot of the engineers could intellectualize it but it didn't click intellectualize it but it didn't click intellectualize it but it didn't click so I was the Chief Architect at the time so I was the Chief Architect at the time so I was the Chief Architect at the time and I asked a couple of them to use and I asked a couple of them to use and I asked a couple of them to use their laptops with the lid closed for a their laptops with the lid closed for a their laptops with the lid closed for a day so they spent the day using jaws and day so they spent the day using jaws and day so they spent the day using jaws and some of the screen readers and after some of the screen readers and after some of the screen readers and after four or five hours a lot of them became four or five hours a lot of them became four or five hours a lot of them became quite frustrated that they were not able quite frustrated that they were not able quite frustrated that they were not able to see to see to see what was going on on the website and what was going on on the website and what was going on on the website and that was when the empathy moment clicked that was when the empathy moment clicked that was when the empathy moment clicked yeah sometime people talk about that yeah sometime people talk about that yeah sometime people talk about that trying to experience it for yourself but trying to experience it for yourself but trying to experience it for yourself but the reality is you're never going to the reality is you're never going to the reality is you're never going to experience it the way a person who lives experience it the way a person who lives experience it the way a person who lives with a disability does and sometimes with a disability does and sometimes with a disability does and sometimes when people try empathy exercises it can when people try empathy exercises it can when people try empathy exercises it can go wrong because they start thinking go wrong because they start thinking go wrong because they start thinking they have to do things for accessibility they have to do things for accessibility they have to do things for accessibility that they don't actually have to do you

that they don't actually have to do you that they don't actually have to do you know people who use assistive know people who use assistive know people who use assistive Technologies every day they have ways of Technologies every day they have ways of Technologies every day they have ways of interacting interacting interacting with websites and content and using that with websites and content and using that with websites and content and using that excessive technology that's much more excessive technology that's much more excessive technology that's much more advanced than somebody who just turned advanced than somebody who just turned advanced than somebody who just turned on a screen reader for a day or even a on a screen reader for a day or even a on a screen reader for a day or even a couple of days and so sometimes you got couple of days and so sometimes you got couple of days and so sometimes you got to be really careful with these empathy to be really careful with these empathy to be really careful with these empathy exercises if you're not actually exercises if you're not actually exercises if you're not actually engaging with people with disabilities engaging with people with disabilities engaging with people with disabilities you might be doing more work than you you might be doing more work than you you might be doing more work than you need to during the wrong work or making need to during the wrong work or making need to during the wrong work or making something even less accessible even something even less accessible even something even less accessible even though you're trying to make it more though you're trying to make it more though you're trying to make it more accessible interesting that is a really accessible interesting that is a really accessible interesting that is a really good kind of like checking me moment for good kind of like checking me moment for good kind of like checking me moment for me to think about whether that was a me to think about whether that was a me to think about whether that was a good idea in the case of the example I good idea in the case of the example I good idea in the case of the example I just gave you it convinced the engineers just gave you it convinced the engineers just gave you it convinced the engineers that they needed to engage with blind that they needed to engage with blind that they needed to engage with blind people so that that empathy exercise was people so that that empathy exercise was people so that that empathy exercise was not to force them to code but rather to not to force them to code but rather to not to force them to code but rather to force them to engage with actual blind force them to engage with actual blind force them to engage with actual blind Engineers that then came and helped us Engineers that then came and helped us Engineers that then came and helped us out which I think uh worked out but out which I think uh worked out but out which I think uh worked out but that's a really great Point thank you that's a really great Point thank you that's a really great Point thank you for bringing that up something else I for bringing that up something else I for bringing that up something else I wanted to call out that in talking to wanted to call out that in talking to wanted to call out that in talking to you before the show remembering that you before the show remembering that you before the show remembering that this is an audio podcast I asked if you this is an audio podcast I asked if you this is an audio podcast I asked if you had listened listened to the show before had listened listened to the show before had listened listened to the show before and you indicated well well no I'm I'm and you indicated well well no I'm I'm and you indicated well well no I'm I'm hearing impaired uh I don't really hearing impaired uh I don't really hearing impaired uh I don't really listen to a lot of podcasts but I do listen to a lot of podcasts but I do listen to a lot of podcasts but I do have transcripts but then you pointed have transcripts but then you pointed have transcripts but then you pointed out that my transcripts were not out that my transcripts were not out that my transcripts were not immediately visible or available to me immediately visible or available to me immediately visible or available to me on the website which is like I'm very on the website which is like I'm very on the website which is like I'm very proud of our transcripts but if they're proud of our transcripts but if they're proud of our transcripts but if they're not easy to find then that sucks all of not easy to find then that sucks all of not easy to find then that sucks all of those things are such great learning those things are such great learning those things are such great learning moments for me to understand how someone moments for me to understand how someone moments for me to understand how someone would interact with my content for the

would interact with my content for the would interact with my content for the first time because you arrived to the first time because you arrived to the first time because you arrived to the show and did not find it immediately show and did not find it immediately show and did not find it immediately accessible so now I've got something to accessible so now I've got something to accessible so now I've got something to fix which I think is a gift and I thank fix which I think is a gift and I thank fix which I think is a gift and I thank you for that oh you're welcome but I I you for that oh you're welcome but I I you for that oh you're welcome but I I think you know that's part of user think you know that's part of user think you know that's part of user experience and testing and making sure experience and testing and making sure experience and testing and making sure it works and it's also you know people it works and it's also you know people it works and it's also you know people with disability they're busy like with disability they're busy like with disability they're busy like everybody else you know so I will everybody else you know so I will everybody else you know so I will quickly look at something and if it's quickly look at something and if it's quickly look at something and if it's not apparent to me right away I will not apparent to me right away I will not apparent to me right away I will usually just use my own accommodations usually just use my own accommodations usually just use my own accommodations so for example in the Chrome browser so for example in the Chrome browser so for example in the Chrome browser they have a setting where I can just they have a setting where I can just they have a setting where I can just have it automatically provide live have it automatically provide live have it automatically provide live captions for any audio and video so I captions for any audio and video so I captions for any audio and video so I know where that is it's on by default know where that is it's on by default know where that is it's on by default and I just rely on that rather than and I just rely on that rather than and I just rely on that rather than figuring out for each particular website figuring out for each particular website figuring out for each particular website where the transcripts or it's the same where the transcripts or it's the same where the transcripts or it's the same with fonts you know you want to set your with fonts you know you want to set your with fonts you know you want to set your font size large on your operating system font size large on your operating system font size large on your operating system and just have everything be larger you and just have everything be larger you and just have everything be larger you don't necessarily want to go to Every don't necessarily want to go to Every don't necessarily want to go to Every website and try to look for like a website and try to look for like a website and try to look for like a little font setting and adjust it there little font setting and adjust it there little font setting and adjust it there that's a great Point yeah when you told that's a great Point yeah when you told that's a great Point yeah when you told me about that uh live captioning me about that uh live captioning me about that uh live captioning basically for the browser and I know basically for the browser and I know basically for the browser and I know that like iPhone phones now and iPads that like iPhone phones now and iPads that like iPhone phones now and iPads have live captioning for the entire have live captioning for the entire have live captioning for the entire operating system they're basically operating system they're basically operating system they're basically listening to the outputed audio right listening to the outputed audio right listening to the outputed audio right and captioning everything that they and captioning everything that they and captioning everything that they hear yeah and the automated captions hear yeah and the automated captions hear yeah and the automated captions aren't perfect they do miss something aren't perfect they do miss something aren't perfect they do miss something because I'm not fully death I can fill because I'm not fully death I can fill because I'm not fully death I can fill in the gaps with my hearing um I also in the gaps with my hearing um I also in the gaps with my hearing um I also lip read a bit so between the three lip read a bit so between the three lip read a bit so between the three things I can figure out what's being things I can figure out what's being things I can figure out what's being said and everybody with a disability said and everybody with a disability said and everybody with a disability even if they have the same disability

even if they have the same disability even if they have the same disability they might need different accommodations they might need different accommodations they might need different accommodations somebody who doesn't lip read can't rely somebody who doesn't lip read can't rely somebody who doesn't lip read can't rely on that or somebody who maybe is a bit on that or somebody who maybe is a bit on that or somebody who maybe is a bit more heart of hearing than I am really more heart of hearing than I am really more heart of hearing than I am really does need the caption to be perfect so does need the caption to be perfect so does need the caption to be perfect so even within disability there's this even within disability there's this even within disability there's this spectrum of you know need that every spectrum of you know need that every spectrum of you know need that every person um has as an individual and person um has as an individual and person um has as an individual and building you know websites products apps building you know websites products apps building you know websites products apps that are more flexible and can be that are more flexible and can be that are more flexible and can be customized to every person's need by customized to every person's need by customized to every person's need by respecting you know the default the respecting you know the default the respecting you know the default the standard using you know native standard using you know native standard using you know native approaches to coding native technology approaches to coding native technology approaches to coding native technology so for example HTML as opposed to trying so for example HTML as opposed to trying so for example HTML as opposed to trying to make components from scratch will to make components from scratch will to make components from scratch will give you that give you that give you that flexibility yeah it's interesting just I flexibility yeah it's interesting just I flexibility yeah it's interesting just I felt educated and up on making felt educated and up on making felt educated and up on making accessible websites making accessible accessible websites making accessible accessible websites making accessible media but just the thing that clicked media but just the thing that clicked media but just the thing that clicked for me a few moments ago was that you for me a few moments ago was that you for me a few moments ago was that you are augmenting one thing in this case are augmenting one thing in this case are augmenting one thing in this case hearing with three different individual hearing with three different individual hearing with three different individual tools which is giving you lots of tools which is giving you lots of tools which is giving you lots of different ways you can choose to different ways you can choose to different ways you can choose to interact with the captions or choose to interact with the captions or choose to interact with the captions or choose to interact with watching uh the lip interact with watching uh the lip interact with watching uh the lip reading or turn up the volume or the reading or turn up the volume or the reading or turn up the volume or the gain on your hearing aids but gain on your hearing aids but gain on your hearing aids but additionally uh at Microsoft where I additionally uh at Microsoft where I additionally uh at Microsoft where I work in my day job we've added in our work in my day job we've added in our work in my day job we've added in our main events um are kind of like our main events um are kind of like our main events um are kind of like our first party giant events a little first party giant events a little first party giant events a little picture and picture of American sign picture and picture of American sign picture and picture of American sign language that is an optional secondary language that is an optional secondary language that is an optional secondary track because captions are not just the track because captions are not just the track because captions are not just the solution a lot of people who are hearing solution a lot of people who are hearing solution a lot of people who are hearing will say oh yeah just use captions right will say oh yeah just use captions right will say oh yeah just use captions right that's important as well isn't it yeah

that's important as well isn't it yeah that's important as well isn't it yeah yeah they there's such a spectrum of yeah they there's such a spectrum of yeah they there's such a spectrum of disability and and needs that people disability and and needs that people disability and and needs that people have but I think sometimes that scares have but I think sometimes that scares have but I think sometimes that scares teams away and it's important to teams away and it's important to teams away and it's important to understand that accessibility is a understand that accessibility is a understand that accessibility is a journey you know you're not going to journey you know you're not going to journey you know you're not going to spend six months do an accessibility spend six months do an accessibility spend six months do an accessibility project and then be done it is a project and then be done it is a project and then be done it is a continual way of working and something continual way of working and something continual way of working and something that you're going to always have to do that you're going to always have to do that you're going to always have to do there is a a section on the Fable there is a a section on the Fable there is a a section on the Fable website at makeit fa.com called the website at makeit fa.com called the website at makeit fa.com called the accessible usability scale it's accessible usability scale it's accessible usability scale it's basically a tool that gives a number basically a tool that gives a number basically a tool that gives a number about about about how uh accessible a product is after a how uh accessible a product is after a how uh accessible a product is after a user's had an experience is that user's had an experience is that user's had an experience is that something that we could incorporate into something that we could incorporate into something that we could incorporate into our kpis when thinking about accessible our kpis when thinking about accessible our kpis when thinking about accessible experiences on a website or in a product experiences on a website or in a product experiences on a website or in a product yeah absolutely so the accessible yeah absolutely so the accessible yeah absolutely so the accessible usability scale or the a us as we call usability scale or the a us as we call usability scale or the a us as we call it for short is a 10 question survey and it for short is a 10 question survey and it for short is a 10 question survey and anyone can use it you don't have to be a anyone can use it you don't have to be a anyone can use it you don't have to be a user of fable to use it you can take user of fable to use it you can take user of fable to use it you can take that survey and administer it at the end that survey and administer it at the end that survey and administer it at the end of a usability test with somebody who of a usability test with somebody who of a usability test with somebody who uses assist of Technology uses assist of Technology uses assist of Technology and then get that score and if you were and then get that score and if you were and then get that score and if you were to get enough of those scores on your to get enough of those scores on your to get enough of those scores on your critical task flows within your product critical task flows within your product critical task flows within your product you can average those out and try to get you can average those out and try to get you can average those out and try to get a sense of how accessible your product a sense of how accessible your product a sense of how accessible your product is from a user's perspective as opposed is from a user's perspective as opposed is from a user's perspective as opposed to just focusing on the technical to just focusing on the technical to just focusing on the technical standards I appreciate that you call out standards I appreciate that you call out standards I appreciate that you call out the flow as well because a lot of times the flow as well because a lot of times the flow as well because a lot of times uh I will see people declare Victory on uh I will see people declare Victory on uh I will see people declare Victory on their homepage but you know the shopping their homepage but you know the shopping their homepage but you know the shopping cart is a nightmare for an accessibility

cart is a nightmare for an accessibility cart is a nightmare for an accessibility perspective and scoring each individual perspective and scoring each individual perspective and scoring each individual kind of like hot path sounds like a best kind of like hot path sounds like a best kind of like hot path sounds like a best practice Yeah I mean in the old days of practice Yeah I mean in the old days of practice Yeah I mean in the old days of the web everything was just plain text the web everything was just plain text the web everything was just plain text content everything was accessible by content everything was accessible by content everything was accessible by default once we started making things default once we started making things default once we started making things interactive is where accessibility interactive is where accessibility interactive is where accessibility really started to become a challenge and really started to become a challenge and really started to become a challenge and it's through those interactions like you it's through those interactions like you it's through those interactions like you said search adding something to a cart said search adding something to a cart said search adding something to a cart going through the checkout all the going through the checkout all the going through the checkout all the important things you need to do perhaps important things you need to do perhaps important things you need to do perhaps booking an appointment with your doctor booking an appointment with your doctor booking an appointment with your doctor online and if you don't have access to online and if you don't have access to online and if you don't have access to that you're really Limited in your that you're really Limited in your that you're really Limited in your ability to participate in society so ability to participate in society so ability to participate in society so it's through those interactions that I it's through those interactions that I it's through those interactions that I think are the most important places to think are the most important places to think are the most important places to start thinking about accessibility start thinking about accessibility start thinking about accessibility speaking of scheduling appointments speaking of scheduling appointments speaking of scheduling appointments scheduling calls through covid you know scheduling calls through covid you know scheduling calls through covid you know we saw this burst of video calls and we saw this burst of video calls and we saw this burst of video calls and everything can be done remotely now I everything can be done remotely now I everything can be done remotely now I remember flying to New York to interact remember flying to New York to interact remember flying to New York to interact with the blind Engineers to work on our with the blind Engineers to work on our with the blind Engineers to work on our project but through things like Fable project but through things like Fable project but through things like Fable and Fable engage am I to understand that and Fable engage am I to understand that and Fable engage am I to understand that I can B basically have a virtual team of I can B basically have a virtual team of I can B basically have a virtual team of people with disabilities help me with my people with disabilities help me with my people with disabilities help me with my user research and with my development user research and with my development user research and with my development yeah absolutely I mean that's the beauty yeah absolutely I mean that's the beauty yeah absolutely I mean that's the beauty of it is you know you're no longer stuck of it is you know you're no longer stuck of it is you know you're no longer stuck relying on these technical standards um relying on these technical standards um relying on these technical standards um if you know you have a lot of if you know you have a lot of if you know you have a lot of accessibility challenges maybe you've accessibility challenges maybe you've accessibility challenges maybe you've used a tool or you've had an audit done used a tool or you've had an audit done used a tool or you've had an audit done and you have all these issues if you and you have all these issues if you and you have all these issues if you actually interact with people for actually interact with people for actually interact with people for example through Fable engage you can try example through Fable engage you can try example through Fable engage you can try to figure out which things are priority to figure out which things are priority to figure out which things are priority and which thing to fix first because and which thing to fix first because and which thing to fix first because often times when when you're looking at

often times when when you're looking at often times when when you're looking at technical standards the volume of technical standards the volume of technical standards the volume of accessibility barriers you find is so accessibility barriers you find is so accessibility barriers you find is so high and that can be really hard to pick high and that can be really hard to pick high and that can be really hard to pick apart and understand what do I action apart and understand what do I action apart and understand what do I action first and so in those interactions with first and so in those interactions with first and so in those interactions with real people you can start to understand real people you can start to understand real people you can start to understand well what's really the biggest challenge well what's really the biggest challenge well what's really the biggest challenge here and what do we have to tackle first here and what do we have to tackle first here and what do we have to tackle first because again it's a journey you're not because again it's a journey you're not because again it's a journey you're not going to be able to fix everything all going to be able to fix everything all going to be able to fix everything all at once it's about starting with what at once it's about starting with what at once it's about starting with what are the biggest challenges how do we fix are the biggest challenges how do we fix are the biggest challenges how do we fix those which teams are working on new those which teams are working on new those which teams are working on new things right now how do they integrate things right now how do they integrate things right now how do they integrate accessibility into the work that they're accessibility into the work that they're accessibility into the work that they're doing doing doing it's such a clever business model it's it's such a clever business model it's it's such a clever business model it's just one of those ideas that I'm like ah just one of those ideas that I'm like ah just one of those ideas that I'm like ah that would a great idea to have a pool that would a great idea to have a pool that would a great idea to have a pool of testers with deep experience in a of testers with deep experience in a of testers with deep experience in a particular assisted technology that I particular assisted technology that I particular assisted technology that I can engage on to improve specific can engage on to improve specific can engage on to improve specific aspects of my website or of my product aspects of my website or of my product aspects of my website or of my product and these are basically experts both in and these are basically experts both in and these are basically experts both in their disability because I know that I their disability because I know that I their disability because I know that I an expert in my diabetes as I'm sure an expert in my diabetes as I'm sure an expert in my diabetes as I'm sure you're an expert in your being hearing you're an expert in your being hearing you're an expert in your being hearing aair but we are only experts in our own aair but we are only experts in our own aair but we are only experts in our own self cuz you said it's a spectrum just self cuz you said it's a spectrum just self cuz you said it's a spectrum just as my disabil spectrum and yours is as as my disabil spectrum and yours is as as my disabil spectrum and yours is as well so we can engage with testers well so we can engage with testers well so we can engage with testers across the spectrum of disabilities is across the spectrum of disabilities is across the spectrum of disabilities is that right yeah yeah exactly so the that right yeah yeah exactly so the that right yeah yeah exactly so the insights you're going to get from insights you're going to get from insights you're going to get from somebody who uses a screen reader versus somebody who uses a screen reader versus somebody who uses a screen reader versus the insights from somebody who uses the insights from somebody who uses the insights from somebody who uses screen magnification or somebody who's screen magnification or somebody who's screen magnification or somebody who's using an alternative navigation they all using an alternative navigation they all using an alternative navigation they all have different challenges and barriers have different challenges and barriers have different challenges and barriers and so through those interactions you and so through those interactions you and so through those interactions you can start to understand you know maybe can start to understand you know maybe can start to understand you know maybe your website works really well for your website works really well for your website works really well for people with low vision but not at all people with low vision but not at all people with low vision but not at all for people who are fully blind and that

for people who are fully blind and that for people who are fully blind and that can help you prioritize and figure out can help you prioritize and figure out can help you prioritize and figure out you know what you have to action first you know what you have to action first you know what you have to action first yeah and not just visual or auditory yeah and not just visual or auditory yeah and not just visual or auditory disabilities but also you know people disabilities but also you know people disabilities but also you know people with mechanical disabilities you might with mechanical disabilities you might with mechanical disabilities you might find that a button on your page doesn't find that a button on your page doesn't find that a button on your page doesn't have the touch size large enough and have the touch size large enough and have the touch size large enough and when someone's pressing it on an iPad when someone's pressing it on an iPad when someone's pressing it on an iPad the spot is too small I actually I had the spot is too small I actually I had the spot is too small I actually I had shoulder surgery and for a year I shoulder surgery and for a year I shoulder surgery and for a year I couldn't move either of my arms above my couldn't move either of my arms above my couldn't move either of my arms above my shoulder I had fro I had dual frozen shoulder I had fro I had dual frozen shoulder I had fro I had dual frozen shoulder so I was very much like a t Rex shoulder so I was very much like a t Rex shoulder so I was very much like a t Rex for about a year and it completely for about a year and it completely for about a year and it completely changed how I interact with my computer changed how I interact with my computer changed how I interact with my computer and I was Finding again temporary like and I was Finding again temporary like and I was Finding again temporary like you pointed out at the beginning of the you pointed out at the beginning of the you pointed out at the beginning of the call this temporary disability call this temporary disability call this temporary disability fundamentally interchanged how I thought fundamentally interchanged how I thought fundamentally interchanged how I thought about my computer for that time yeah and about my computer for that time yeah and about my computer for that time yeah and so you could discover those kinds of so you could discover those kinds of so you could discover those kinds of things through those interactions with things through those interactions with things through those interactions with people with disability the other thing people with disability the other thing people with disability the other thing we do is actually training so to take it we do is actually training so to take it we do is actually training so to take it a bit back to kpis in order to a bit back to kpis in order to a bit back to kpis in order to successfully have an accessible product successfully have an accessible product successfully have an accessible product you need people who are educated in you need people who are educated in you need people who are educated in accessibility okay and you also need accessibility okay and you also need accessibility okay and you also need processes to support that accessibility processes to support that accessibility processes to support that accessibility work and those processes can involve work and those processes can involve work and those processes can involve automated tools and it can also be automated tools and it can also be automated tools and it can also be interacting with people with interacting with people with interacting with people with disabilities in fact it should probably disabilities in fact it should probably disabilities in fact it should probably be a bit of both and so through training be a bit of both and so through training be a bit of both and so through training and education you make sure your and education you make sure your and education you make sure your designers your researchers your designers your researchers your designers your researchers your developers your QA tester all the people developers your QA tester all the people developers your QA tester all the people who are building these products know who are building these products know who are building these products know enough about accessibility that they can enough about accessibility that they can enough about accessibility that they can build these more inclusive products and build these more inclusive products and build these more inclusive products and partly that is understanding what do I partly that is understanding what do I partly that is understanding what do I have to do have to do have to do you know what do I have to do as a

you know what do I have to do as a you know what do I have to do as a designer what tool do I have to use how designer what tool do I have to use how designer what tool do I have to use how do I have to change my design process in do I have to change my design process in do I have to change my design process in order to design a more inclusive product order to design a more inclusive product order to design a more inclusive product and so it's that balance of how do we and so it's that balance of how do we and so it's that balance of how do we measure how much people know about measure how much people know about measure how much people know about accessibility how do we measure the accessibility how do we measure the accessibility how do we measure the processes that we're using and know if processes that we're using and know if processes that we're using and know if we're getting better at this and then we're getting better at this and then we're getting better at this and then that'll support your product that'll support your product that'll support your product accessibility right and when I'm selling accessibility right and when I'm selling accessibility right and when I'm selling this to the boss I always try to remind this to the boss I always try to remind this to the boss I always try to remind people that this is not just to be nice people that this is not just to be nice people that this is not just to be nice is literally so that you do not exclude is literally so that you do not exclude is literally so that you do not exclude people like the whole point of inclusion people like the whole point of inclusion people like the whole point of inclusion is to avoid unnecessarily excluding is to avoid unnecessarily excluding is to avoid unnecessarily excluding folks from experiencing your product folks from experiencing your product folks from experiencing your product your game your mobile device and if you your game your mobile device and if you your game your mobile device and if you were only targeting able-bodied people were only targeting able-bodied people were only targeting able-bodied people and 10% of them had a lousy experience and 10% of them had a lousy experience and 10% of them had a lousy experience you would go to your user experienc you would go to your user experienc you would go to your user experienc people and you'd say we should fix that people and you'd say we should fix that people and you'd say we should fix that but if you are targeting everyone and 10 but if you are targeting everyone and 10 but if you are targeting everyone and 10 or 20% of people are having a lousy or 20% of people are having a lousy or 20% of people are having a lousy experience because they are differently experience because they are differently experience because they are differently abled we should probably fix that yeah abled we should probably fix that yeah abled we should probably fix that yeah the other thing people miss is that a the other thing people miss is that a the other thing people miss is that a lot of accessibility can be very lot of accessibility can be very lot of accessibility can be very Innovative work when you're looking at Innovative work when you're looking at Innovative work when you're looking at accessibility from a standard compliance accessibility from a standard compliance accessibility from a standard compliance angle you're not being Innovative and in angle you're not being Innovative and in angle you're not being Innovative and in fact most people don't like to do that fact most people don't like to do that fact most people don't like to do that type of work but if you're thinking type of work but if you're thinking type of work but if you're thinking about it as co-designing with people about it as co-designing with people about it as co-designing with people with disability getting feedback from with disability getting feedback from with disability getting feedback from people with disabilities challenging the people with disabilities challenging the people with disabilities challenging the way you think about product design and way you think about product design and way you think about product design and development that's where you can get development that's where you can get development that's where you can get inspiration and new ideas and find new inspiration and new ideas and find new inspiration and new ideas and find new ways of working and doing things and ways of working and doing things and ways of working and doing things and that's what we all want we want teams that's what we all want we want teams that's what we all want we want teams that are more Innovative and more that are more Innovative and more that are more Innovative and more creative and in engaging with people who

creative and in engaging with people who creative and in engaging with people who are different from us that's how we get are different from us that's how we get are different from us that's how we get that that's very cool yeah I feel like that that's very cool yeah I feel like that that's very cool yeah I feel like it's a combination of like you said it's it's a combination of like you said it's it's a combination of like you said it's Innovation but then it's also the little Innovation but then it's also the little Innovation but then it's also the little things that we just needed a reminder things that we just needed a reminder things that we just needed a reminder about you you posted a little while back about you you posted a little while back about you you posted a little while back on LinkedIn about a survey that you did on LinkedIn about a survey that you did on LinkedIn about a survey that you did on mobile insights and just not labeling on mobile insights and just not labeling on mobile insights and just not labeling a button or you know not being able to a button or you know not being able to a button or you know not being able to resize text you or you disabling pinch resize text you or you disabling pinch resize text you or you disabling pinch to zoom I hate it as someone who wants to zoom I hate it as someone who wants to zoom I hate it as someone who wants to zoom when they disable pinch to zoom to zoom when they disable pinch to zoom to zoom when they disable pinch to zoom for no reason other than maybe for no reason other than maybe for no reason other than maybe Aesthetics and those things stand in the Aesthetics and those things stand in the Aesthetics and those things stand in the way and you call out in your article way and you call out in your article way and you call out in your article these are not hard things to fix you these are not hard things to fix you these are not hard things to fix you just have to kind of remember yeah well just have to kind of remember yeah well just have to kind of remember yeah well that's the beauty of working with people that's the beauty of working with people that's the beauty of working with people with disabilities is you start to with disabilities is you start to with disabilities is you start to realize that it's not complicated you realize that it's not complicated you realize that it's not complicated you don't need to know hundreds of don't need to know hundreds of don't need to know hundreds of guidelines you just need to know what's guidelines you just need to know what's guidelines you just need to know what's hard for people and how do I fix it I hard for people and how do I fix it I hard for people and how do I fix it I also wanted to congratulate you because also wanted to congratulate you because also wanted to congratulate you because I did see a press release go by where I did see a press release go by where I did see a press release go by where you were appointed to an accessibility you were appointed to an accessibility you were appointed to an accessibility standards Committee in Canada uh with a standards Committee in Canada uh with a standards Committee in Canada uh with a focus on uh is it on on on AI making AI focus on uh is it on on on AI making AI focus on uh is it on on on AI making AI more accessible yeah accessible and more accessible yeah accessible and more accessible yeah accessible and Equitable AI which you know is a really Equitable AI which you know is a really Equitable AI which you know is a really important thing we've had AI for a lot important thing we've had AI for a lot important thing we've had AI for a lot longer than most people realize I think longer than most people realize I think longer than most people realize I think everybody thinks of the latest chatbots everybody thinks of the latest chatbots everybody thinks of the latest chatbots and things that we do with AI and it's and things that we do with AI and it's and things that we do with AI and it's been popular in the last year or so but been popular in the last year or so but been popular in the last year or so but we've been using AI for a long time and we've been using AI for a long time and we've been using AI for a long time and AI has been used to exclude people one AI has been used to exclude people one AI has been used to exclude people one of the best examples of that is in the of the best examples of that is in the of the best examples of that is in the hiring process where you know automated hiring process where you know automated hiring process where you know automated AI tools are trying to match job AI tools are trying to match job AI tools are trying to match job applicants with people who have

applicants with people who have applicants with people who have previously been in that position so previously been in that position so previously been in that position so they're trying to match what was they're trying to match what was they're trying to match what was historically a bias selection process historically a bias selection process historically a bias selection process and so you know if you're training an AI and so you know if you're training an AI and so you know if you're training an AI to look for people like the people to look for people like the people to look for people like the people already in the job and the people already in the job and the people already in the job and the people already in the job aren't diverse you're already in the job aren't diverse you're already in the job aren't diverse you're just going to get more of the same and just going to get more of the same and just going to get more of the same and so now that people are more aware of AI so now that people are more aware of AI so now that people are more aware of AI I'm hoping that we can put in place I'm hoping that we can put in place I'm hoping that we can put in place guidelines and standards to make AI more guidelines and standards to make AI more guidelines and standards to make AI more inclusive than it's ever been that's inclusive than it's ever been that's inclusive than it's ever been that's great I'm really glad that that uh is great I'm really glad that that uh is great I'm really glad that that uh is being thought about and congratulations being thought about and congratulations being thought about and congratulations on being appointed to that uh committee on being appointed to that uh committee on being appointed to that uh committee thank you do you also think though that thank you do you also think though that thank you do you also think though that by making things more accessible like by making things more accessible like by making things more accessible like not to be too much of a capitalist here not to be too much of a capitalist here not to be too much of a capitalist here but you are increasing the number of but you are increasing the number of but you are increasing the number of people that you can reach Like You by people that you can reach Like You by people that you can reach Like You by not excluding folks you are making your not excluding folks you are making your not excluding folks you are making your business better you're going to have business better you're going to have business better you're going to have more people that you can talk to yeah more people that you can talk to yeah more people that you can talk to yeah definitely and I think some sometimes definitely and I think some sometimes definitely and I think some sometimes people try to boil it down a little bit people try to boil it down a little bit people try to boil it down a little bit too much to the numbers but they're too much to the numbers but they're too much to the numbers but they're there the market reaches is there when there the market reaches is there when there the market reaches is there when you start thinking about how many people you start thinking about how many people you start thinking about how many people have disability and being able to have disability and being able to have disability and being able to include all those people in your service include all those people in your service include all those people in your service or product and offering you know who or product and offering you know who or product and offering you know who wouldn't want that um when we think wouldn't want that um when we think wouldn't want that um when we think about gaming in particular there's a ton about gaming in particular there's a ton about gaming in particular there's a ton of people with disabilities who love to of people with disabilities who love to of people with disabilities who love to do gaming and there's no shortage of a do gaming and there's no shortage of a do gaming and there's no shortage of a pool of people to test gaming pool of people to test gaming pool of people to test gaming accessibility with because many gamers accessibility with because many gamers accessibility with because many gamers are actually disabled it's quite an are actually disabled it's quite an are actually disabled it's quite an active Community yeah 2023 frankly was a active Community yeah 2023 frankly was a active Community yeah 2023 frankly was a kind of a golden year for video game kind of a golden year for video game kind of a golden year for video game accessibility particularly in like AAA accessibility particularly in like AAA accessibility particularly in like AAA games like Dead Space called out their

games like Dead Space called out their games like Dead Space called out their motor Visual and auditory stuff as motor Visual and auditory stuff as motor Visual and auditory stuff as separate individual sections within separate individual sections within separate individual sections within accessibility Forza Motorsport did some accessibility Forza Motorsport did some accessibility Forza Motorsport did some amazing stuff even Street Fighter got amazing stuff even Street Fighter got amazing stuff even Street Fighter got like an award of some kind for like an award of some kind for like an award of some kind for accessibility and little things like I accessibility and little things like I accessibility and little things like I always like making my text bigger or always like making my text bigger or always like making my text bigger or adding subtitles or adding subtitles adding subtitles or adding subtitles adding subtitles or adding subtitles with a background text contrast it seems with a background text contrast it seems with a background text contrast it seems like the last two or three years people like the last two or three years people like the last two or three years people started to care about accessibility in started to care about accessibility in started to care about accessibility in video games I think it's just becoming video games I think it's just becoming video games I think it's just becoming more apparent because company they're more apparent because company they're more apparent because company they're talking more about it I think that's the talking more about it I think that's the talking more about it I think that's the thing that's really important is that thing that's really important is that thing that's really important is that people have worked on accessibility in people have worked on accessibility in people have worked on accessibility in the past more silently and now you have the past more silently and now you have the past more silently and now you have companies doing you know video ads about companies doing you know video ads about companies doing you know video ads about accessibility about their adaptive accessibility about their adaptive accessibility about their adaptive controllers for video games and talking controllers for video games and talking controllers for video games and talking more publicly about it and it's through more publicly about it and it's through more publicly about it and it's through that conversation and through being more that conversation and through being more that conversation and through being more public and more open about accessibility public and more open about accessibility public and more open about accessibility that we really start to move things that we really start to move things that we really start to move things forward very cool well I really forward very cool well I really forward very cool well I really appreciate you spending time with me appreciate you spending time with me appreciate you spending time with me today thanks for having me a great today thanks for having me a great today thanks for having me a great conversation we have been chatting with conversation we have been chatting with conversation we have been chatting with Kate covich she's the head of Kate covich she's the head of Kate covich she's the head of accessibility Innovation at Fable you accessibility Innovation at Fable you accessibility Innovation at Fable you can check them out at make can check them out at make can check them out at make it.com this has been another episode of it.com this has been another episode of it.com this has been another episode of Hansel minutes and we'll see you again Hansel minutes and we'll see you again Hansel minutes and we'll see you again next week next week next week [Music] [Music] [Music] a