Defining Developer Relations with Angie Jones

hey friends and digital marketers this hey friends and digital marketers this one's for you I've got 30 seconds to one's for you I've got 30 seconds to one's for you I've got 30 seconds to tell you about Wix Studio the web tell you about Wix Studio the web tell you about Wix Studio the web platform for agencies and Enterprises so platform for agencies and Enterprises so platform for agencies and Enterprises so here are a few things you can do in 30 here are a few things you can do in 30 here are a few things you can do in 30 seconds or less when you manage projects seconds or less when you manage projects seconds or less when you manage projects on Wix Studio you can work in sync with on Wix Studio you can work in sync with on Wix Studio you can work in sync with your team on one canvas you can reuse your team on one canvas you can reuse your team on one canvas you can reuse templates widgets and sections across templates widgets and sections across templates widgets and sections across sites you can create a client kit for sites you can create a client kit for sites you can create a client kit for seamless handovers and leverage seamless handovers and leverage seamless handovers and leverage best-in-class SEO defaults across all best-in-class SEO defaults across all best-in-class SEO defaults across all your Wix sites time's up but the list your Wix sites time's up but the list your Wix sites time's up but the list keeps going step into Wick Studio to see keeps going step into Wick Studio to see keeps going step into Wick Studio to see [Music] [Music] [Music] more hi I'm Scott Hanselman this is more hi I'm Scott Hanselman this is more hi I'm Scott Hanselman this is another episode of Hansel minutes today another episode of Hansel minutes today another episode of Hansel minutes today I'm chatting with Angie Jones she's a VP I'm chatting with Angie Jones she's a VP I'm chatting with Angie Jones she's a VP of developer relations at TBD at block of developer relations at TBD at block of developer relations at TBD at block Building open source toolkits to enable Building open source toolkits to enable Building open source toolkits to enable frictionless crossborder payments how frictionless crossborder payments how frictionless crossborder payments how are you I'm great Scott how you doing are you I'm great Scott how you doing are you I'm great Scott how you doing I'm uh a little jet lagged a little jet I'm uh a little jet lagged a little jet I'm uh a little jet lagged a little jet lagged uh because uh you and I are both lagged uh because uh you and I are both lagged uh because uh you and I are both in Berlin which is uh crazy I don't I in Berlin which is uh crazy I don't I in Berlin which is uh crazy I don't I don't often do hansome minut it's on the don't often do hansome minut it's on the don't often do hansome minut it's on the road but I saw you yesterday at the road but I saw you yesterday at the road but I saw you yesterday at the event and I jumped at the chance to uh event and I jumped at the chance to uh event and I jumped at the chance to uh to have you on the show thanks for to have you on the show thanks for to have you on the show thanks for having me back yeah I appreciate that so having me back yeah I appreciate that so having me back yeah I appreciate that so you know we had an interesting chat at you know we had an interesting chat at you know we had an interesting chat at dinner yesterday at this little like get dinner yesterday at this little like get dinner yesterday at this little like get together that they have for speakers at together that they have for speakers at together that they have for speakers at this event that we're at called we are this event that we're at called we are this event that we're at called we are developers and we were talking about

developers and we were talking about developers and we were talking about like kind of the state of developer like kind of the state of developer like kind of the state of developer relations and yeah I wonder do you think relations and yeah I wonder do you think relations and yeah I wonder do you think that the concept of devil is like an that the concept of devil is like an that the concept of devil is like an understood job or do you think that like understood job or do you think that like understood job or do you think that like regular people in the streets know what regular people in the streets know what regular people in the streets know what it is that we do oh actually no I don't it is that we do oh actually no I don't it is that we do oh actually no I don't think I don't think the masses think I don't think the masses think I don't think the masses understand and I would even argue Scott understand and I would even argue Scott understand and I would even argue Scott that maybe I shouldn't even say this but that maybe I shouldn't even say this but that maybe I shouldn't even say this but some people in Devil probably don't some people in Devil probably don't some people in Devil probably don't really understand the really understand the really understand the job like is it marketing I've had people job like is it marketing I've had people job like is it marketing I've had people say oh well you're just marketing say oh well you're just marketing say oh well you're just marketing someone on I I have like a Tik Tok and someone on I I have like a Tik Tok and someone on I I have like a Tik Tok and it's my own Tik Tok it's not for work it's my own Tik Tok it's not for work it's my own Tik Tok it's not for work and someone said that I was a PR manager and someone said that I was a PR manager and someone said that I was a PR manager I had never heard that one before I'm a I had never heard that one before I'm a I had never heard that one before I'm a a public relations manager I'm like okay a public relations manager I'm like okay a public relations manager I'm like okay I guess I'm just on Tik Tok but okay I guess I'm just on Tik Tok but okay I guess I'm just on Tik Tok but okay that's cool right I don't I don't think that's cool right I don't I don't think that's cool right I don't I don't think it's marketing I think it's maybe some it's marketing I think it's maybe some it's marketing I think it's maybe some form of it if we being honest but I I form of it if we being honest but I I form of it if we being honest but I I actually like wrote something about this actually like wrote something about this actually like wrote something about this a couple of years ago we I mean we all a couple of years ago we I mean we all a couple of years ago we I mean we all know that developers are pretty like know that developers are pretty like know that developers are pretty like allergic to traditional marketing allergic to traditional marketing allergic to traditional marketing techniques right um we just kind of run techniques right um we just kind of run techniques right um we just kind of run away from marketers and away from marketers and away from marketers and salespeople and uh and so devil I feel salespeople and uh and so devil I feel salespeople and uh and so devil I feel like is a way to kind of bridge that Gap like is a way to kind of bridge that Gap like is a way to kind of bridge that Gap where maybe you want developers to be where maybe you want developers to be where maybe you want developers to be aware of your tool or your product but aware of your tool or your product but aware of your tool or your product but not in like I'm trying to sell you this

not in like I'm trying to sell you this not in like I'm trying to sell you this right like hey uh fellow techie like right like hey uh fellow techie like right like hey uh fellow techie like Scott you always show me like new cool Scott you always show me like new cool Scott you always show me like new cool tools and stuff like every time I see tools and stuff like every time I see tools and stuff like every time I see you I'm downloading a new app or you I'm downloading a new app or you I'm downloading a new app or something like that so it it kind of something like that so it it kind of something like that so it it kind of feels like that you're a trusted source feels like that you're a trusted source feels like that you're a trusted source to me I know you wouldn't steer me in to me I know you wouldn't steer me in to me I know you wouldn't steer me in the wrong direction and whatever you're the wrong direction and whatever you're the wrong direction and whatever you're showing me actually provides value to me showing me actually provides value to me showing me actually provides value to me so I look at like Dev sort of like so I look at like Dev sort of like so I look at like Dev sort of like yeah I don't know if this is on only a yeah I don't know if this is on only a yeah I don't know if this is on only a West Coast thing but there's this guy on West Coast thing but there's this guy on West Coast thing but there's this guy on the radio like the actual AM FM radio the radio like the actual AM FM radio the radio like the actual AM FM radio who we always grew up listening to who who we always grew up listening to who who we always grew up listening to who was an advertisement and he had a a was an advertisement and he had a a was an advertisement and he had a a diamond shop and at the end of his diamond shop and at the end of his diamond shop and at the end of his Diamond commercial he would say you've Diamond commercial he would say you've Diamond commercial he would say you've got a friend in the diamond business and got a friend in the diamond business and got a friend in the diamond business and everyone would be like talking about everyone would be like talking about everyone would be like talking about that when they would get married or that when they would get married or that when they would get married or whatever they're like oh yeah I'm going whatever they're like oh yeah I'm going whatever they're like oh yeah I'm going to call my buddy you know I've got a to call my buddy you know I've got a to call my buddy you know I've got a friend in the diamond business and that friend in the diamond business and that friend in the diamond business and that kind of got into my head because I've kind of got into my head because I've kind of got into my head because I've always tried to whether it's be working always tried to whether it's be working always tried to whether it's be working at Microsoft or other places to be the at Microsoft or other places to be the at Microsoft or other places to be the community's friend that works at at in community's friend that works at at in community's friend that works at at in this case Microsoft where I work right this case Microsoft where I work right this case Microsoft where I work right now you know yeah that's exactly right now you know yeah that's exactly right now you know yeah that's exactly right like you know I wouldn't I wouldn't like you know I wouldn't I wouldn't like you know I wouldn't I wouldn't recommend this to you if it's not of recommend this to you if it's not of recommend this to you if it's not of some some use to you right I I feel like some some use to you right I I feel like some some use to you right I I feel like I work for the community over any I work for the community over any I work for the community over any company and I've been in situations company and I've been in situations company and I've been in situations where I've even recommended like where I've even recommended like where I've even recommended like competing tools right because that was competing tools right because that was competing tools right because that was the best tool for the person I was the best tool for the person I was the best tool for the person I was talking to at that time and I want you

talking to at that time and I want you talking to at that time and I want you to be successful whether that's with the to be successful whether that's with the to be successful whether that's with the company I'm working for or not you know company I'm working for or not you know company I'm working for or not you know yeah but that's a challenge though right yeah but that's a challenge though right yeah but that's a challenge though right because right now it's a very difficult because right now it's a very difficult because right now it's a very difficult job market I think it's fair to say and job market I think it's fair to say and job market I think it's fair to say and we're seeing some people in devil that we're seeing some people in devil that we're seeing some people in devil that are moving or uh some squishing of their are moving or uh some squishing of their are moving or uh some squishing of their jobs and they're being pinched out and jobs and they're being pinched out and jobs and they're being pinched out and then they'll go on on Twitter and say then they'll go on on Twitter and say then they'll go on on Twitter and say you know the company doesn't care about you know the company doesn't care about you know the company doesn't care about you and and we're saying like think you and and we're saying like think you and and we're saying like think pieces about the death of of devell and pieces about the death of of devell and pieces about the death of of devell and there's also some people who are saying there's also some people who are saying there's also some people who are saying that maybe it's not a valuable job and that maybe it's not a valuable job and that maybe it's not a valuable job and the companies don't themselves the companies don't themselves the companies don't themselves understand it so like how do you have a understand it so like how do you have a understand it so like how do you have a job if you need a job and you you have job if you need a job and you you have job if you need a job and you you have to care about the product right you to care about the product right you to care about the product right you actually have to like the product but actually have to like the product but actually have to like the product but then aren't you aren't you a salesperson then aren't you aren't you a salesperson then aren't you aren't you a salesperson at that point and then that's where at that point and then that's where at that point and then that's where things get very blurry for me I I think things get very blurry for me I I think things get very blurry for me I I think I'm pretty good at saying like no I I'm pretty good at saying like no I I'm pretty good at saying like no I don't I'm not going to talk about that don't I'm not going to talk about that don't I'm not going to talk about that that's not a that's not a product that that's not a that's not a product that that's not a that's not a product that we sell that I'm excited about you know we sell that I'm excited about you know we sell that I'm excited about you know I'm not excited about every Microsoft I'm not excited about every Microsoft I'm not excited about every Microsoft but that's that can maybe come from a but that's that can maybe come from a but that's that can maybe come from a place of of privilege because at some place of of privilege because at some place of of privilege because at some point if I said to my boss I don't want point if I said to my boss I don't want point if I said to my boss I don't want to talk about project Fu he'd be like to talk about project Fu he'd be like to talk about project Fu he'd be like well you that's your job you need to well you that's your job you need to well you that's your job you need to talk about project food and then what do talk about project food and then what do talk about project food and then what do you do yeah I think the the best you do yeah I think the the best you do yeah I think the the best developer Advocates are are able to developer Advocates are are able to developer Advocates are are able to navigate this pretty well so I've been navigate this pretty well so I've been navigate this pretty well so I've been in that same situation right where in that same situation right where in that same situation right where there's been products that I don't there's been products that I don't there's been products that I don't believe in or I don't think they're believe in or I don't think they're believe in or I don't think they're welldeveloped

welldeveloped welldeveloped or whatever the reason may be but like or whatever the reason may be but like or whatever the reason may be but like I'm not about to push that on people I'm not about to push that on people I'm not about to push that on people because that's not genuine right and I'm because that's not genuine right and I'm because that's not genuine right and I'm very vocal about that and that probably very vocal about that and that probably very vocal about that and that probably does come from a place of privilege does come from a place of privilege does come from a place of privilege where I can say hey this product sucks where I can say hey this product sucks where I can say hey this product sucks here are the reasons why I'll try here are the reasons why I'll try here are the reasons why I'll try internally to prove that but if I don't internally to prove that but if I don't internally to prove that but if I don't win that I'm not I'm not pushing that on win that I'm not I'm not pushing that on win that I'm not I'm not pushing that on my fellow developers I'm just not yeah my fellow developers I'm just not yeah my fellow developers I'm just not yeah yeah that that really resonates with me yeah that that really resonates with me yeah that that really resonates with me I feel like bringing feedback like I feel like bringing feedback like I feel like bringing feedback like bringing feedback back to the team is bringing feedback back to the team is bringing feedback back to the team is like so fundamental like because people like so fundamental like because people like so fundamental like because people do research they do like formal do research they do like formal do research they do like formal developer research and they do user developer research and they do user developer research and they do user interface studies and they do um surveys interface studies and they do um surveys interface studies and they do um surveys but then I'll I'll go on a trip and I'll but then I'll I'll go on a trip and I'll but then I'll I'll go on a trip and I'll spend a week talking to people using the spend a week talking to people using the spend a week talking to people using the product and they'll say hey but in the product and they'll say hey but in the product and they'll say hey but in the real world when I do XYZ this is how it real world when I do XYZ this is how it real world when I do XYZ this is how it went down I'll write that up and I'll went down I'll write that up and I'll went down I'll write that up and I'll bring it back and they'll be like oh my bring it back and they'll be like oh my bring it back and they'll be like oh my goodness I had no idea people were doing goodness I had no idea people were doing goodness I had no idea people were doing it like that and then it starts up new it like that and then it starts up new it like that and then it starts up new research and new conversations that's a research and new conversations that's a research and new conversations that's a really valuable aspect of of being a really valuable aspect of of being a really valuable aspect of of being a developer relations person yeah and I developer relations person yeah and I developer relations person yeah and I think a lot of a lot of folks missed think a lot of a lot of folks missed think a lot of a lot of folks missed that it's not just about writing blog that it's not just about writing blog that it's not just about writing blog posts or giving demos like I think it's posts or giving demos like I think it's posts or giving demos like I think it's super important probably one of the most super important probably one of the most super important probably one of the most important important aspects of the job important important aspects of the job important important aspects of the job is to actually be out there in the is to actually be out there in the is to actually be out there in the community a true member of the community

community a true member of the community community a true member of the community where people trust you enough to even where people trust you enough to even where people trust you enough to even share how they really feel about it or share how they really feel about it or share how they really feel about it or how they're using it or their pain how they're using it or their pain how they're using it or their pain points and what they're struggling with points and what they're struggling with points and what they're struggling with right so um you're not supposed to be right so um you're not supposed to be right so um you're not supposed to be talking at the community right you're talking at the community right you're talking at the community right you're supposed to be working with them and and supposed to be working with them and and supposed to be working with them and and helping to enable them and so with that helping to enable them and so with that helping to enable them and so with that is when you get like these moments where is when you get like these moments where is when you get like these moments where it's like oh this is how people are it's like oh this is how people are it's like oh this is how people are using it or oh here's a pain point that using it or oh here's a pain point that using it or oh here's a pain point that you know I've been hearing across the you know I've been hearing across the you know I've been hearing across the globe like my last three stops someone globe like my last three stops someone globe like my last three stops someone has brought this up right and I found has brought this up right and I found has brought this up right and I found like inter internally people really like inter internally people really like inter internally people really appreciate that when you come back and appreciate that when you come back and appreciate that when you come back and you say all right I just came from you you say all right I just came from you you say all right I just came from you know we're in Berlin right now right so know we're in Berlin right now right so know we're in Berlin right now right so I'm going to probably hear some stuff I'm going to probably hear some stuff I'm going to probably hear some stuff here when I go back to the office I need here when I go back to the office I need here when I go back to the office I need to share that internally like yo these to share that internally like yo these to share that internally like yo these are the pain points here's what people are the pain points here's what people are the pain points here's what people are complaining about here's what people are complaining about here's what people are complaining about here's what people love here's uh where people were getting love here's uh where people were getting love here's uh where people were getting tripped up here's what they didn't tripped up here's what they didn't tripped up here's what they didn't understand and usually when I do that understand and usually when I do that understand and usually when I do that everybody's all ears the engineering everybody's all ears the engineering everybody's all ears the engineering team the marketing team like everybody team the marketing team like everybody team the marketing team like everybody wants to hear that information it's wants to hear that information it's wants to hear that information it's truly valuable um I was talking with truly valuable um I was talking with truly valuable um I was talking with someone last night and she asked me a someone last night and she asked me a someone last night and she asked me a question about uh developer relation question about uh developer relation question about uh developer relation departments and specifically at her departments and specifically at her departments and specifically at her company they weren't respected right and company they weren't respected right and company they weren't respected right and I share with her how just what we're

I share with her how just what we're I share with her how just what we're talking about a lot of times people talking about a lot of times people talking about a lot of times people don't understand what you do they see don't understand what you do they see don't understand what you do they see your photos like you're always on the your photos like you're always on the your photos like you're always on the road you're in the like road you're in the like road you're in the like air uh line lounges you know you're air uh line lounges you know you're air uh line lounges you know you're taking selfies with people it looks like taking selfies with people it looks like taking selfies with people it looks like a party right and so if you don't a party right and so if you don't a party right and so if you don't understand the work that's being done understand the work that's being done understand the work that's being done it's it's really easy to resent that te it's it's really easy to resent that te it's it's really easy to resent that te you know um like why are they spinning you know um like why are they spinning you know um like why are they spinning up the budget like traveling the world up the budget like traveling the world up the budget like traveling the world and we don't see any any output from and we don't see any any output from and we don't see any any output from that so you need to share these things that so you need to share these things that so you need to share these things and let them know what it is you're and let them know what it is you're and let them know what it is you're doing and how the community is receiving doing and how the community is receiving doing and how the community is receiving whatever it is that you're out talking whatever it is that you're out talking whatever it is that you're out talking about and I think then people understand about and I think then people understand about and I think then people understand better internally like the role of Deo better internally like the role of Deo better internally like the role of Deo yeah yeah I've always felt very strongly yeah yeah I've always felt very strongly yeah yeah I've always felt very strongly about the idea that business travel is about the idea that business travel is about the idea that business travel is not a junket it's not a party from not a junket it's not a party from not a junket it's not a party from wheels down to wheels up I'm here to to wheels down to wheels up I'm here to to wheels down to wheels up I'm here to to to work and I uh I actually kind of have to work and I uh I actually kind of have to work and I uh I actually kind of have I do that to a fault so I'll do user I do that to a fault so I'll do user I do that to a fault so I'll do user groups customer meetings uh multiple groups customer meetings uh multiple groups customer meetings uh multiple panels multiple talks and I'll like panels multiple talks and I'll like panels multiple talks and I'll like basically play Tetris with my calendar basically play Tetris with my calendar basically play Tetris with my calendar filling up my days because I'm honestly filling up my days because I'm honestly filling up my days because I'm honestly like a paranoid that people will will be like a paranoid that people will will be like a paranoid that people will will be like hey he flew to to Berlin for like 4 like hey he flew to to Berlin for like 4 like hey he flew to to Berlin for like 4 days and he did one talk you know and days and he did one talk you know and days and he did one talk you know and they' be like what what what it just they' be like what what what it just they' be like what what what it just walked around town like what is that walked around town like what is that walked around town like what is that right so I mean do you feel like that at

right so I mean do you feel like that at right so I mean do you feel like that at all like I don't want anyone at work to all like I don't want anyone at work to all like I don't want anyone at work to be like I'm just hanging out so I will be like I'm just hanging out so I will be like I'm just hanging out so I will to a fault hurt myself packing stuff to a fault hurt myself packing stuff to a fault hurt myself packing stuff tight no you're absolutely right like I tight no you're absolutely right like I tight no you're absolutely right like I I was supposed to come here to do like I was supposed to come here to do like I was supposed to come here to do like one thing I'm now like on multiple one thing I'm now like on multiple one thing I'm now like on multiple panels I'm doing a workshop I'm going to panels I'm doing a workshop I'm going to panels I'm doing a workshop I'm going to like do some office hours at the boo like do some office hours at the boo like do some office hours at the boo like you're feeling timing right I don't like you're feeling timing right I don't like you're feeling timing right I don't want to just be sitting around you know want to just be sitting around you know want to just be sitting around you know and I'm also here to learn I want to see and I'm also here to learn I want to see and I'm also here to learn I want to see what everybody else is talking about and what everybody else is talking about and what everybody else is talking about and you know what they're doing um in you know what they're doing um in you know what they're doing um in different companies and things like that different companies and things like that different companies and things like that so yeah you're you're absolutely right so yeah you're you're absolutely right so yeah you're you're absolutely right it shouldn't be all about partying or it shouldn't be all about partying or it shouldn't be all about partying or sing or hanging out in the speakers Lou sing or hanging out in the speakers Lou sing or hanging out in the speakers Lou you know yeah definitely definitely okay you know yeah definitely definitely okay you know yeah definitely definitely okay so let me let me move to a slightly uh so let me let me move to a slightly uh so let me let me move to a slightly uh spicy question because I'm you know we spicy question because I'm you know we spicy question because I'm you know we have sometimes questions happen and I I have sometimes questions happen and I I have sometimes questions happen and I I Feel Like H is this something we should Feel Like H is this something we should Feel Like H is this something we should talk about publicly but I think it's talk about publicly but I think it's talk about publicly but I think it's important for you and I as kind of important for you and I as kind of important for you and I as kind of senior people to talk about these things senior people to talk about these things senior people to talk about these things so without giving away ages I think it's so without giving away ages I think it's so without giving away ages I think it's fair to say that you're probably not 22 fair to say that you're probably not 22 fair to say that you're probably not 22 okay um you've been okay um you've been okay um you've been doing you know you've been doing this doing you know you've been doing this doing you know you've been doing this for a minute you are a senior leader for a minute you are a senior leader for a minute you are a senior leader right you're Global vice president at a right you're Global vice president at a right you're Global vice president at a company right now and you're leading a company right now and you're leading a company right now and you're leading a team how important is it that a Dev team how important is it that a Dev team how important is it that a Dev person who's early in career who might person who's early in career who might person who's early in career who might be 22 be a Dev what are the the roles be 22 be a Dev what are the the roles be 22 be a Dev what are the the roles for the technical the highly Technical for the technical the highly Technical for the technical the highly Technical and the maybe not so technical people and the maybe not so technical people and the maybe not so technical people and and they when they enter this this and and they when they enter this this and and they when they enter this this kind of job of developer advocacy and do kind of job of developer advocacy and do kind of job of developer advocacy and do you ever recommend that they go off

you ever recommend that they go off you ever recommend that they go off become a Dev go be a Dev for five or 10 become a Dev go be a Dev for five or 10 become a Dev go be a Dev for five or 10 years and then come back when they're years and then come back when they're years and then come back when they're done yeah so I get in trouble sometimes done yeah so I get in trouble sometimes done yeah so I get in trouble sometimes when I answer this question but I'll when I answer this question but I'll when I answer this question but I'll give my honest opinion from my give my honest opinion from my give my honest opinion from my perspective and I'll say that the places perspective and I'll say that the places perspective and I'll say that the places that I've worked um specifically in that I've worked um specifically in that I've worked um specifically in doing Dev rail have been developer doing Dev rail have been developer doing Dev rail have been developer tools sdks apis things like that very tools sdks apis things like that very tools sdks apis things like that very developer Centric things so in my developer Centric things so in my developer Centric things so in my experience yes you absolutely need to experience yes you absolutely need to experience yes you absolutely need to have been a developer at some point to have been a developer at some point to have been a developer at some point to understand these things understand not understand these things understand not understand these things understand not just the technology part but the just the technology part but the just the technology part but the constraints that developers have right constraints that developers have right constraints that developers have right so I'm a Java Champion um I'm I'm always so I'm a Java Champion um I'm I'm always so I'm a Java Champion um I'm I'm always up to date on the latest version of java up to date on the latest version of java up to date on the latest version of java we're like in the Java 20s by time this we're like in the Java 20s by time this we're like in the Java 20s by time this podcast release we'll probably be on podcast release we'll probably be on podcast release we'll probably be on another version right um and a lot of another version right um and a lot of another version right um and a lot of people are are stuck like at some at people are are stuck like at some at people are are stuck like at some at java8 lot of people some at Java 11 java8 lot of people some at Java 11 java8 lot of people some at Java 11 right and so it's really easy to be like right and so it's really easy to be like right and so it's really easy to be like oh look at all of these cool new oh look at all of these cool new oh look at all of these cool new features uh you should upgrade and when features uh you should upgrade and when features uh you should upgrade and when you start talking to real developers and you start talking to real developers and you start talking to real developers and you understand the constraint that that you understand the constraint that that you understand the constraint that that come with that you realize like hey it's come with that you realize like hey it's come with that you realize like hey it's not as it's not as easy as it seems like not as it's not as easy as it seems like not as it's not as easy as it seems like updating a bank system for updating a bank system for updating a bank system for example um is something that you're

example um is something that you're example um is something that you're going to need to get a lot of Buy in going to need to get a lot of Buy in going to need to get a lot of Buy in from internally to do you know and so from internally to do you know and so from internally to do you know and so those are the types of things that I those are the types of things that I those are the types of things that I mean like that you need to understand mean like that you need to understand mean like that you need to understand and appreciate about software and appreciate about software and appreciate about software development not just the technical piece development not just the technical piece development not just the technical piece but all the other stuff that goes along but all the other stuff that goes along but all the other stuff that goes along with that and if you don't understand with that and if you don't understand with that and if you don't understand that it's really hard I think to relate that it's really hard I think to relate that it's really hard I think to relate to developers now like I said I've got to developers now like I said I've got to developers now like I said I've got in trouble for these points of views I in trouble for these points of views I in trouble for these points of views I wouldn't say in trouble but you know wouldn't say in trouble but you know wouldn't say in trouble but you know people have very loudly disagree with people have very loudly disagree with people have very loudly disagree with that and say you don't need to be a that and say you don't need to be a that and say you don't need to be a developer and I'm a curious person so I developer and I'm a curious person so I developer and I'm a curious person so I start like kind of poking into that to start like kind of poking into that to start like kind of poking into that to say like why do they feel that way and say like why do they feel that way and say like why do they feel that way and uh what I see is like there's other uh what I see is like there's other uh what I see is like there's other types of products that might not be types of products that might not be types of products that might not be a SD or API or something like that a SD or API or something like that a SD or API or something like that that's still maybe marketed to that's still maybe marketed to that's still maybe marketed to developers like maybe a productivity developers like maybe a productivity developers like maybe a productivity tool or something like that or maybe you tool or something like that or maybe you tool or something like that or maybe you don't need to have the technical don't need to have the technical don't need to have the technical background uh to do that I don't know background uh to do that I don't know background uh to do that I don't know I've never been in that situation before I've never been in that situation before I've never been in that situation before yeah I've always felt like the most yeah I've always felt like the most yeah I've always felt like the most important skill to have as a developer important skill to have as a developer important skill to have as a developer relations person is empathy and for me relations person is empathy and for me relations person is empathy and for me I'm defining empathy as putting yourself I'm defining empathy as putting yourself I'm defining empathy as putting yourself in their shoes so if you're working for in their shoes so if you're working for in their shoes so if you're working for a big it Department it's really helpful a big it Department it's really helpful a big it Department it's really helpful to have worked for a big it Department to have worked for a big it Department to have worked for a big it Department before because then you can go oh man I before because then you can go oh man I before because then you can go oh man I let me tell you when I was working for let me tell you when I was working for let me tell you when I was working for Little Debbie snap cakes their it Little Debbie snap cakes their it Little Debbie snap cakes their it Department blah blah blah right like I

Department blah blah blah right like I Department blah blah blah right like I remember and being able to relate to remember and being able to relate to remember and being able to relate to people like that so I I'm a big fan of people like that so I I'm a big fan of people like that so I I'm a big fan of people starting their developer advocacy people starting their developer advocacy people starting their developer advocacy career maybe five or even I was going to career maybe five or even I was going to career maybe five or even I was going to say 10 and then I backed up to five I say 10 and then I backed up to five I say 10 and then I backed up to five I need to I need to not have filters Angie need to I need to not have filters Angie need to I need to not have filters Angie let me tell you you know 10 years into let me tell you you know 10 years into let me tell you you know 10 years into your career then you can come and say your career then you can come and say your career then you can come and say hey I've got a decade of knowing what hey I've got a decade of knowing what hey I've got a decade of knowing what I'm talking about let me go and and talk I'm talking about let me go and and talk I'm talking about let me go and and talk about these tools I I personally don't about these tools I I personally don't about these tools I I personally don't recommend it to people that are coming recommend it to people that are coming recommend it to people that are coming directly out of out of school unless directly out of out of school unless directly out of out of school unless they're unless they're they were working they're unless they're they were working they're unless they're they were working on open source or the work that they on open source or the work that they on open source or the work that they were doing in school was like software were doing in school was like software were doing in school was like software engineering because I also think of engineering because I also think of engineering because I also think of software engineering and computer software engineering and computer software engineering and computer science as being very separate degrees science as being very separate degrees science as being very separate degrees and a theoretical computer science and a theoretical computer science and a theoretical computer science degree is challenging now that said I do degree is challenging now that said I do degree is challenging now that said I do have you know I do work with and have have you know I do work with and have have you know I do work with and have worked with people who are early in worked with people who are early in worked with people who are early in career and have never been a line career and have never been a line career and have never been a line developer so I guess let's let's take developer so I guess let's let's take developer so I guess let's let's take that question and make it more pointed that question and make it more pointed that question and make it more pointed do you do you need to be a shipping code do you do you need to be a shipping code do you do you need to be a shipping code Dev or can you just do work on the side Dev or can you just do work on the side Dev or can you just do work on the side and you know do open source stuff like and you know do open source stuff like and you know do open source stuff like that that that uh that's a tough one I I again I think uh that's a tough one I I again I think uh that's a tough one I I again I think there's some lessons that com with the there's some lessons that com with the there's some lessons that com with the full software development life cycle and full software development life cycle and full software development life cycle and experiencing that right like shipping experiencing that right like shipping experiencing that right like shipping things to produ ction or um having to things to produ ction or um having to things to produ ction or um having to live with a cold Bas and and the the live with a cold Bas and and the the live with a cold Bas and and the the horrors coming back to haunt you horrors coming back to haunt you horrors coming back to haunt you actually like doing pool requests and actually like doing pool requests and actually like doing pool requests and cold reviews and things like that I cold reviews and things like that I cold reviews and things like that I think all of that plays into it I'll say

think all of that plays into it I'll say think all of that plays into it I'll say it's a superpower for sure if you have it's a superpower for sure if you have it's a superpower for sure if you have all of that can you do it without it all of that can you do it without it all of that can you do it without it you've done open source development yeah you've done open source development yeah you've done open source development yeah probably probably but I think you're um probably probably but I think you're um probably probably but I think you're um going to miss like a bit of that empathy going to miss like a bit of that empathy going to miss like a bit of that empathy p that you talk about because that's p that you talk about because that's p that you talk about because that's never been your reality you know yeah I never been your reality you know yeah I never been your reality you know yeah I think though that my goal and I think think though that my goal and I think think though that my goal and I think people's goal should never be to to people's goal should never be to to people's goal should never be to to gatekeep and that's why when you said gatekeep and that's why when you said gatekeep and that's why when you said like you know you get in trouble you get like you know you get in trouble you get like you know you get in trouble you get in trouble because then you're telling in trouble because then you're telling in trouble because then you're telling people who might be listening wait a people who might be listening wait a people who might be listening wait a second I can't do this thing I want to second I can't do this thing I want to second I can't do this thing I want to do why you why you telling me I can't do do why you why you telling me I can't do do why you why you telling me I can't do a thing I want to do right or that I a thing I want to do right or that I a thing I want to do right or that I gotta go work 10 years before I get to gotta go work 10 years before I get to gotta go work 10 years before I get to do it right and then it's like well then do it right and then it's like well then do it right and then it's like well then here's two old people on a call uh that here's two old people on a call uh that here's two old people on a call uh that are like complaining about like you know are like complaining about like you know are like complaining about like you know why the young people can't do a thing why the young people can't do a thing why the young people can't do a thing and that's that's kind of a problem or and that's that's kind of a problem or and that's that's kind of a problem or can be yeah I I I I can be yeah I I I I can be yeah I I I I mean I think you can I'm just saying mean I think you can I'm just saying mean I think you can I'm just saying here's the easier path right like sure here's the easier path right like sure here's the easier path right like sure you can do it will you be as effective you can do it will you be as effective you can do it will you be as effective well you're missing some tools um you're well you're missing some tools um you're well you're missing some tools um you're missing some experience you're you're missing some experience you're you're missing some experience you're you're missing some lessons so your your path missing some lessons so your your path missing some lessons so your your path is not going to be as easy as someone is not going to be as easy as someone is not going to be as easy as someone who has that experience behind them but who has that experience behind them but who has that experience behind them but sure you can do it do it that's a really sure you can do it do it that's a really sure you can do it do it that's a really interesting I like the way you phrase interesting I like the way you phrase interesting I like the way you phrase that though this is an easier path that though this is an easier path that though this is an easier path that's a that's a kind way to do it and that's a that's a kind way to do it and that's a that's a kind way to do it and maybe even a couple of years might just maybe even a couple of years might just maybe even a couple of years might just be enough right or maybe having be enough right or maybe having be enough right or maybe having conversations with developers and really

conversations with developers and really conversations with developers and really understanding honestly it's the for me understanding honestly it's the for me understanding honestly it's the for me it's a software developer life cycle it's a software developer life cycle it's a software developer life cycle just knowing what a Dev does in their just knowing what a Dev does in their just knowing what a Dev does in their day job is I think the most important day job is I think the most important day job is I think the most important thing I think so too I think so too that thing I think so too I think so too that thing I think so too I think so too that said I mean I do have uh more Junior said I mean I do have uh more Junior said I mean I do have uh more Junior developer Advocates on my team that developer Advocates on my team that developer Advocates on my team that don't have that experience but I don't have that experience but I don't have that experience but I wouldn't hire someone like that as the wouldn't hire someone like that as the wouldn't hire someone like that as the sole developer Advocate I think that's sole developer Advocate I think that's sole developer Advocate I think that's unfair to them you know so I have other unfair to them you know so I have other unfair to them you know so I have other senior and staff level developer senior and staff level developer senior and staff level developer Advocates who are able to to Mentor the Advocates who are able to to Mentor the Advocates who are able to to Mentor the Juniors but again they're doing fine Juniors but again they're doing fine Juniors but again they're doing fine like they can do it but they're still like they can do it but they're still like they can do it but they're still learning about software development in learning about software development in learning about software development in general as well yeah now you and I had general as well yeah now you and I had general as well yeah now you and I had talked about leading teams and having talked about leading teams and having talked about leading teams and having teams of of developer Advocates and how teams of of developer Advocates and how teams of of developer Advocates and how there was a time I think when we uh when there was a time I think when we uh when there was a time I think when we uh when companies asked developer Advocates to companies asked developer Advocates to companies asked developer Advocates to basically do everything you have to be a basically do everything you have to be a basically do everything you have to be a video editor you have to be a samples video editor you have to be a samples video editor you have to be a samples writer you have to be a social media writer you have to be a social media writer you have to be a social media expert you have to be a basically a expert you have to be a basically a expert you have to be a basically a Swiss army knife but I have found lately Swiss army knife but I have found lately Swiss army knife but I have found lately just really building on the thing that just really building on the thing that just really building on the thing that the person is good at and that their the person is good at and that their the person is good at and that their passions where their passions lie and passions where their passions lie and passions where their passions lie and you know not everybody's going to be you know not everybody's going to be you know not everybody's going to be good at writing samples or not good at writing samples or not good at writing samples or not everyone's going to be good at writing everyone's going to be good at writing everyone's going to be good at writing documentation is a is a a more documentation is a is a a more documentation is a is a a more sustainable way to do things do you sustainable way to do things do you sustainable way to do things do you agree I totally agree with that like agree I totally agree with that like agree I totally agree with that like there I I have multiple people on my there I I have multiple people on my there I I have multiple people on my team and everybody is free to do

team and everybody is free to do team and everybody is free to do whatever they want right um as far as whatever they want right um as far as whatever they want right um as far as like how they want to go about whatever like how they want to go about whatever like how they want to go about whatever they you know work they need to do so they you know work they need to do so they you know work they need to do so they could say okay I'm going to choose they could say okay I'm going to choose they could say okay I'm going to choose to write a blog post or I'm going to to write a blog post or I'm going to to write a blog post or I'm going to choose to do a video or whatever and choose to do a video or whatever and choose to do a video or whatever and they have the freedom to try it all and they have the freedom to try it all and they have the freedom to try it all and explore it right and they naturally tend explore it right and they naturally tend explore it right and they naturally tend to pick a couple of the things that they to pick a couple of the things that they to pick a couple of the things that they feel more comfortable doing or they feel more comfortable doing or they feel more comfortable doing or they think that they're better at and they think that they're better at and they think that they're better at and they say well you know like I'm not I'm not say well you know like I'm not I'm not say well you know like I'm not I'm not great at at video or I'm not great at great at at video or I'm not great at great at at video or I'm not great at writing so I'm not going to do that I'll writing so I'm not going to do that I'll writing so I'm not going to do that I'll focus on this other area and someone focus on this other area and someone focus on this other area and someone else on the team fortunately does love else on the team fortunately does love else on the team fortunately does love the things that the other person doesn't the things that the other person doesn't the things that the other person doesn't and so it kind of balances out um again and so it kind of balances out um again and so it kind of balances out um again when you have like a a oneperson show when you have like a a oneperson show when you have like a a oneperson show that's that's a lot harder um and I that's that's a lot harder um and I that's that's a lot harder um and I definitely understand teams that might definitely understand teams that might definitely understand teams that might only have one person in and and that's a only have one person in and and that's a only have one person in and and that's a different scenario I think what do you different scenario I think what do you different scenario I think what do you think I think if you're running devell think I think if you're running devell think I think if you're running devell for a company that's a small company for a company that's a small company for a company that's a small company like a 20 person company oh my goodness like a 20 person company oh my goodness like a 20 person company oh my goodness if you had to make blogs videos if you had to make blogs videos if you had to make blogs videos tutorials speak at conference do meetups tutorials speak at conference do meetups tutorials speak at conference do meetups do webinars you know develop the content do webinars you know develop the content do webinars you know develop the content workshops hackathons training sessions workshops hackathons training sessions workshops hackathons training sessions and then work on and then work on and then work on documentation like at that point you're documentation like at that point you're documentation like at that point you're Jack and Jill of all trades master of Jack and Jill of all trades master of Jack and Jill of all trades master of none right that's a lot um that's where none right that's a lot um that's where none right that's a lot um that's where that's that's where that's that's asking that's that's where that's that's asking that's that's where that's that's asking for a lot but I think if you're an for a lot but I think if you're an for a lot but I think if you're an engineer at heart um maybe you're not

engineer at heart um maybe you're not engineer at heart um maybe you're not writing production code but you writing production code but you writing production code but you understand the landscape with a spe understand the landscape with a spe understand the landscape with a spe special speciality that's a word um and special speciality that's a word um and special speciality that's a word um and I think also if you if you like humans I think also if you if you like humans I think also if you if you like humans right you know I don't know I find right you know I don't know I find right you know I don't know I find extroverts to to to thrive in this kind extroverts to to to thrive in this kind extroverts to to to thrive in this kind of work but I also know a lot of really of work but I also know a lot of really of work but I also know a lot of really good introverted uh devell people that good introverted uh devell people that good introverted uh devell people that are more kind of online and build really are more kind of online and build really are more kind of online and build really great communities on things like Discord great communities on things like Discord great communities on things like Discord right right you're right it feels like right right you're right it feels like right right you're right it feels like there's some conversations happening there's some conversations happening there's some conversations happening right now about shrinking devell and not right now about shrinking devell and not right now about shrinking devell and not not flying people all over the the world not flying people all over the the world not flying people all over the the world it's not just e eco-friendly but it's it's not just e eco-friendly but it's it's not just e eco-friendly but it's also just not really efficient do you also just not really efficient do you also just not really efficient do you prefer talk to people and like being in prefer talk to people and like being in prefer talk to people and like being in Berlin like we are right now or do you Berlin like we are right now or do you Berlin like we are right now or do you prefer doing YouTubes and doing virtual prefer doing YouTubes and doing virtual prefer doing YouTubes and doing virtual work because Co changed deel as well it work because Co changed deel as well it work because Co changed deel as well it did it really did that's just what I was did it really did that's just what I was did it really did that's just what I was going to say when you when you brought going to say when you when you brought going to say when you when you brought that up that um we saw something with Co that up that um we saw something with Co that up that um we saw something with Co like that you could basically reach your like that you could basically reach your like that you could basically reach your audiences virtually and you don't have audiences virtually and you don't have audiences virtually and you don't have to always you know connect with them in to always you know connect with them in to always you know connect with them in real life and so that could be an real life and so that could be an real life and so that could be an effective tool I personally started effective tool I personally started effective tool I personally started doing more online such as like podcast doing more online such as like podcast doing more online such as like podcast episodes or even virtual meetups like I episodes or even virtual meetups like I episodes or even virtual meetups like I you know before Co a Meetup was in you know before Co a Meetup was in you know before Co a Meetup was in person that was in real life you had the person that was in real life you had the person that was in real life you had the like if you were in that City like we're like if you were in that City like we're like if you were in that City like we're in Berlin right now I might look up who in Berlin right now I might look up who in Berlin right now I might look up who has meetups here and you know hey I'm has meetups here and you know hey I'm has meetups here and you know hey I'm coming and I can do a talk or whatever

coming and I can do a talk or whatever coming and I can do a talk or whatever but uh Co you know forc people to go but uh Co you know forc people to go but uh Co you know forc people to go online and so now I'm able to do meetups online and so now I'm able to do meetups online and so now I'm able to do meetups in places that I may not have ever been in places that I may not have ever been in places that I may not have ever been to in real life and so I I I feel like to in real life and so I I I feel like to in real life and so I I I feel like I'm able to reach more people that say I'm able to reach more people that say I'm able to reach more people that say it there is something very special about it there is something very special about it there is something very special about just being in person and connecting that just being in person and connecting that just being in person and connecting that way as well so I think there's benefits way as well so I think there's benefits way as well so I think there's benefits to both approaches I'm glad that now I to both approaches I'm glad that now I to both approaches I'm glad that now I have the online stuff um in my tool have the online stuff um in my tool have the online stuff um in my tool build I I feel like it's another Avenue build I I feel like it's another Avenue build I I feel like it's another Avenue yeah it definitely taught me how to yeah it definitely taught me how to yeah it definitely taught me how to build a home studio it taught me how to build a home studio it taught me how to build a home studio it taught me how to think about audio video lighting and think about audio video lighting and think about audio video lighting and stuff like that cuz I want to put on a stuff like that cuz I want to put on a stuff like that cuz I want to put on a show like I look at some I look at some show like I look at some I look at some show like I look at some I look at some aspects of developer advocacy as being aspects of developer advocacy as being aspects of developer advocacy as being show Showmanship showers ship right like show Showmanship showers ship right like show Showmanship showers ship right like I want it's like a oneman show I want to I want it's like a oneman show I want to I want it's like a oneman show I want to go and like see somebody do standup like go and like see somebody do standup like go and like see somebody do standup like I want some lighting and some stage I want some lighting and some stage I want some lighting and some stage effects yeah I just don't want to sit on effects yeah I just don't want to sit on effects yeah I just don't want to sit on Zoom I don't want to sit on zoom and Zoom I don't want to sit on zoom and Zoom I don't want to sit on zoom and watch some dude with a cursor you know watch some dude with a cursor you know watch some dude with a cursor you know and small I want it to be a show and I and small I want it to be a show and I and small I want it to be a show and I enjoy that kind of stuff even if the enjoy that kind of stuff even if the enjoy that kind of stuff even if the show is just you know two turntables and show is just you know two turntables and show is just you know two turntables and a microphone yeah yeah yeah yeah you're a microphone yeah yeah yeah yeah you're a microphone yeah yeah yeah yeah you're right and you do that in person like right and you do that in person like right and you do that in person like your your live talks are a show so I I your your live talks are a show so I I your your live talks are a show so I I would expect that same thing from you would expect that same thing from you would expect that same thing from you Scott if I'm tuning in on YouTube you Scott if I'm tuning in on YouTube you Scott if I'm tuning in on YouTube you know don't cheat me no I appreciate that know don't cheat me no I appreciate that know don't cheat me no I appreciate that yeah yeah yeah but you're right though yeah yeah yeah but you're right though yeah yeah yeah but you're right though there is something to be said for really there is something to be said for really there is something to be said for really sitting down and talking to people I got sitting down and talking to people I got sitting down and talking to people I got to figure out what the sustainable way

to figure out what the sustainable way to figure out what the sustainable way of doing that you you did the Angie of doing that you you did the Angie of doing that you you did the Angie World Tour though which continues like World Tour though which continues like World Tour though which continues like how do you not burn out we also hear a how do you not burn out we also hear a how do you not burn out we also hear a lot about and deel people particularly lot about and deel people particularly lot about and deel people particularly just burning out yeah I travel a ton I just burning out yeah I travel a ton I just burning out yeah I travel a ton I would say probably 90 to would say probably 90 to would say probably 90 to 95% of my time is spent on the rooll 95% of my time is spent on the rooll 95% of my time is spent on the rooll which is a lot right and every year I which is a lot right and every year I which is a lot right and every year I say oh I'm going to scale back I'm going say oh I'm going to scale back I'm going say oh I'm going to scale back I'm going to scale back but I mean there's so many to scale back but I mean there's so many to scale back but I mean there's so many wonderful opportunities and people that wonderful opportunities and people that wonderful opportunities and people that I want to connect with and conferences I want to connect with and conferences I want to connect with and conferences that I I haven't done before that I I that I I haven't done before that I I that I I haven't done before that I I want to do and so I end up in the same want to do and so I end up in the same want to do and so I end up in the same vote but I am trying Scott vote but I am trying Scott vote but I am trying Scott um one thing that I'm doing is spreading um one thing that I'm doing is spreading um one thing that I'm doing is spreading the the wealth and so sharing these the the wealth and so sharing these the the wealth and so sharing these opportunities with other people um opportunities with other people um opportunities with other people um whether you know they're on my team or whether you know they're on my team or whether you know they're on my team or or someone else in the community that I or someone else in the community that I or someone else in the community that I might know of and and trying to you know might know of and and trying to you know might know of and and trying to you know make space for them as well so I'm not make space for them as well so I'm not make space for them as well so I'm not doing it all you know yeah yeah I think doing it all you know yeah yeah I think doing it all you know yeah yeah I think that is your choice though I mean I that is your choice though I mean I that is your choice though I mean I would say of all the derell people I would say of all the derell people I would say of all the derell people I know you travel the most and I don't know you travel the most and I don't know you travel the most and I don't mean that that's just a statement of mean that that's just a statement of mean that that's just a statement of fact but I know that you like it and you fact but I know that you like it and you fact but I know that you like it and you don't you don't appear to be burning out don't you don't appear to be burning out don't you don't appear to be burning out you still having fun I'm still having you still having fun I'm still having you still having fun I'm still having fun I'm still having fun but yeah I got fun I'm still having fun but yeah I got fun I'm still having fun but yeah I got to figure I got to figure something out to figure I got to figure something out to figure I got to figure something out it's it's it's a lot I'm not burning out it's it's it's a lot I'm not burning out it's it's it's a lot I'm not burning out but I do like my home um and I like my but I do like my home um and I like my but I do like my home um and I like my husband and I want to be there some more husband and I want to be there some more husband and I want to be there some more yeah I definitely uh appreciate that I I yeah I definitely uh appreciate that I I yeah I definitely uh appreciate that I I I count the weekends uh like you know I

I count the weekends uh like you know I I count the weekends uh like you know I don't want to be braing the boys I got a don't want to be braing the boys I got a don't want to be braing the boys I got a little bit of a reputation in the devell little bit of a reputation in the devell little bit of a reputation in the devell community as being the guy that doesn't community as being the guy that doesn't community as being the guy that doesn't stay for the entire conference stay for the entire conference stay for the entire conference oh oh oh wow well because here's the thing though wow well because here's the thing though wow well because here's the thing though right like I'll come and I'll do maybe right like I'll come and I'll do maybe right like I'll come and I'll do maybe two or three days I'll do multiple two or three days I'll do multiple two or three days I'll do multiple customer meetings I'll do User Group customer meetings I'll do User Group customer meetings I'll do User Group panel a talk a workshop a keynote and panel a talk a workshop a keynote and panel a talk a workshop a keynote and then I'll try to get out and I'll try to then I'll try to get out and I'll try to then I'll try to get out and I'll try to like come in on Tuesday come back by like come in on Tuesday come back by like come in on Tuesday come back by Thursday night and then people will be Thursday night and then people will be Thursday night and then people will be like why don't you stay for the party like why don't you stay for the party like why don't you stay for the party and it's like for me it's a very simple and it's like for me it's a very simple and it's like for me it's a very simple decision it's like my 16-year-old has a decision it's like my 16-year-old has a decision it's like my 16-year-old has a football game right or you know my football game right or you know my football game right or you know my 18-year-old has a college uh well like 18-year-old has a college uh well like 18-year-old has a college uh well like for example I came in a little late for for example I came in a little late for for example I came in a little late for Berlin because I was T taking my Berlin because I was T taking my Berlin because I was T taking my 18-year-old to his college uh you know 18-year-old to his college uh you know 18-year-old to his college uh you know movein weekend like that that stuff movein weekend like that that stuff movein weekend like that that stuff matters and I can count the number of matters and I can count the number of matters and I can count the number of weekends that I've got left before these weekends that I've got left before these weekends that I've got left before these young men move out of my house oh so I'm young men move out of my house oh so I'm young men move out of my house oh so I'm not going to like stay for the for the not going to like stay for the for the not going to like stay for the for the Afterparty I guess that doesn't the Afterparty I guess that doesn't the Afterparty I guess that doesn't the Afterparty doesn't feed my spirit as Afterparty doesn't feed my spirit as Afterparty doesn't feed my spirit as much as hanging out with my people do much as hanging out with my people do much as hanging out with my people do yeah I totally hear that and I think yeah I totally hear that and I think yeah I totally hear that and I think that that's important right like what's that that's important right like what's that that's important right like what's important in life and in in weighing all important in life and in in weighing all important in life and in in weighing all of that and making sound decisions so I of that and making sound decisions so I of that and making sound decisions so I think you do a great job of being there think you do a great job of being there think you do a great job of being there for the community but also making sure for the community but also making sure for the community but also making sure like you're taking care of home yeah like you're taking care of home yeah like you're taking care of home yeah yeah I think so last question I want to yeah I think so last question I want to yeah I think so last question I want to ask you which I think is an interesting ask you which I think is an interesting ask you which I think is an interesting one now sometimes people think that one now sometimes people think that one now sometimes people think that words don't matter but I feel like in words don't matter but I feel like in words don't matter but I feel like in software engineering and object-oriented software engineering and object-oriented software engineering and object-oriented development picking the right word

development picking the right word development picking the right word matters and I remember sitting doing you matters and I remember sitting doing you matters and I remember sitting doing you know old 1990s style objectoriented know old 1990s style objectoriented know old 1990s style objectoriented development where we would get a development where we would get a development where we would get a thesaurus out and dictionary and we thesaurus out and dictionary and we thesaurus out and dictionary and we would try to figure out what the name of would try to figure out what the name of would try to figure out what the name of this object is going to be and I never this object is going to be and I never this object is going to be and I never like the word like the word like the word evangelism I just I hate that word evangelism I just I hate that word evangelism I just I hate that word developer evangelist because it feels developer evangelist because it feels developer evangelist because it feels like I'm knocking on your door trying to like I'm knocking on your door trying to like I'm knocking on your door trying to convert you to my religion without convert you to my religion without convert you to my religion without respecting respecting respecting yours uh I've really like the word yours uh I've really like the word yours uh I've really like the word advocacy or you know being an advocate I advocacy or you know being an advocate I advocacy or you know being an advocate I love that I feel like that was the right love that I feel like that was the right love that I feel like that was the right word I'm curious what do you think about word I'm curious what do you think about word I'm curious what do you think about evangelism and why that word persisted evangelism and why that word persisted evangelism and why that word persisted for so long yeah you know my very first for so long yeah you know my very first for so long yeah you know my very first developer Advocate role the title that developer Advocate role the title that developer Advocate role the title that was listed before I accepted the role was listed before I accepted the role was listed before I accepted the role was a developer was a developer was a developer evangelist and I don't know what it is evangelist and I don't know what it is evangelist and I don't know what it is about that word that rubs me the wrong about that word that rubs me the wrong about that word that rubs me the wrong way but it just didn't seem to way but it just didn't seem to way but it just didn't seem to Define what it was that I I wanted to do Define what it was that I I wanted to do Define what it was that I I wanted to do like I associated with like preaching like I associated with like preaching like I associated with like preaching you know and like basically trying to you know and like basically trying to you know and like basically trying to force a belief on someone or something force a belief on someone or something force a belief on someone or something like that and that was the opposite of like that and that was the opposite of like that and that was the opposite of what I wanted to do and so I negotiated what I wanted to do and so I negotiated what I wanted to do and so I negotiated that like as part of my you know hiring that like as part of my you know hiring that like as part of my you know hiring process I I was like okay I don't want process I I was like okay I don't want process I I was like okay I don't want my title to be that can we change that my title to be that can we change that my title to be that can we change that to developer Advocate and they were like to developer Advocate and they were like to developer Advocate and they were like oh yeah sure we don't care you know um I oh yeah sure we don't care you know um I oh yeah sure we don't care you know um I have no idea like why that was the title

have no idea like why that was the title have no idea like why that was the title for so long but I don't see it much for so long but I don't see it much for so long but I don't see it much anymore yeah I I I think that that was a anymore yeah I I I think that that was a anymore yeah I I I think that that was a good example good example good example of changing the narrative and finding a of changing the narrative and finding a of changing the narrative and finding a better word I don't know who came up better word I don't know who came up better word I don't know who came up with the word developer with the word developer with the word developer Advocate if if I'm going to advocate for Advocate if if I'm going to advocate for Advocate if if I'm going to advocate for my community my people because they've my community my people because they've my community my people because they've got a friend in the diamond business got a friend in the diamond business got a friend in the diamond business then I I'm G to say well you know this then I I'm G to say well you know this then I I'm G to say well you know this this part of Microsoft Azure you don't this part of Microsoft Azure you don't this part of Microsoft Azure you don't need or maybe you use this non-microsoft need or maybe you use this non-microsoft need or maybe you use this non-microsoft product I've always been the guy who was product I've always been the guy who was product I've always been the guy who was not necessarily running the Microsoft not necessarily running the Microsoft not necessarily running the Microsoft phone or you know I have a PlayStation phone or you know I have a PlayStation phone or you know I have a PlayStation or whatever and people are like what you or whatever and people are like what you or whatever and people are like what you don't have all the micros St stuff and I don't have all the micros St stuff and I don't have all the micros St stuff and I was like no because I'm a fully formed was like no because I'm a fully formed was like no because I'm a fully formed individual with like beliefs and things individual with like beliefs and things individual with like beliefs and things that are not my company like I was a that are not my company like I was a that are not my company like I was a person before Microsoft and hopefully person before Microsoft and hopefully person before Microsoft and hopefully I'll continue to be a person after so I'll continue to be a person after so I'll continue to be a person after so like being all in on my you know the like being all in on my you know the like being all in on my you know the products and if the product doesn't work products and if the product doesn't work products and if the product doesn't work right then I'm going to work with the right then I'm going to work with the right then I'm going to work with the group internally and help them make it group internally and help them make it group internally and help them make it make it better so that I will be excited make it better so that I will be excited make it better so that I will be excited about it but I'm not going to just be about it but I'm not going to just be about it but I'm not going to just be blindly stoked about the product because blindly stoked about the product because blindly stoked about the product because that's who and then that gets back to that's who and then that gets back to that's who and then that gets back to the beginning of the conversation the beginning of the conversation the beginning of the conversation finding that balance because they are finding that balance because they are finding that balance because they are giving me a paycheck though you know giving me a paycheck though you know giving me a paycheck though you know right I want to be able to trust what right I want to be able to trust what right I want to be able to trust what you say though right if you think of you say though right if you think of you say though right if you think of things super important that's super things super important that's super things super important that's super important and I've had to push back on important and I've had to push back on important and I've had to push back on that like at jobs before where it's like that like at jobs before where it's like that like at jobs before where it's like no I absolutely cannot and let me tell no I absolutely cannot and let me tell no I absolutely cannot and let me tell you if I do this now I'm going to lose you if I do this now I'm going to lose you if I do this now I'm going to lose some trust and I'm going to be less some trust and I'm going to be less some trust and I'm going to be less effective going forward and neither one

effective going forward and neither one effective going forward and neither one of us want that you know and I've had to of us want that you know and I've had to of us want that you know and I've had to take those hard s but I don't regret take those hard s but I don't regret take those hard s but I don't regret them at all yeah well we appreciate you them at all yeah well we appreciate you them at all yeah well we appreciate you we appreciate your content your speaking we appreciate your content your speaking we appreciate your content your speaking your engagement we love your team uh and your engagement we love your team uh and your engagement we love your team uh and we know that if Angie says something is we know that if Angie says something is we know that if Angie says something is cool then we're going to go and check it cool then we're going to go and check it cool then we're going to go and check it out and maybe think about whether that's out and maybe think about whether that's out and maybe think about whether that's the thing that we want for our uh for the thing that we want for our uh for the thing that we want for our uh for our team and for our products uh so I our team and for our products uh so I our team and for our products uh so I just want you to know how much we just want you to know how much we just want you to know how much we appreciate you in the developer appreciate you in the developer appreciate you in the developer Community thank you so much Scott thank Community thank you so much Scott thank Community thank you so much Scott thank you for everything over my career you've you for everything over my career you've you for everything over my career you've been uh wonderful uh ad advate for for been uh wonderful uh ad advate for for been uh wonderful uh ad advate for for me and I really appreciate you all right me and I really appreciate you all right me and I really appreciate you all right we've been talking with Angie Jones we've been talking with Angie Jones we've been talking with Angie Jones she's a global vice president of she's a global vice president of she's a global vice president of development relations at TBD at block development relations at TBD at block development relations at TBD at block and this has been another episode of and this has been another episode of and this has been another episode of Hansel minutes and we'll see you again Hansel minutes and we'll see you again Hansel minutes and we'll see you again next week [Music] [Music] a a a [Music]