Psychology of Software Teams with Dr. Cat Hicks

hi I'm Scott Hanselman this is another hi I'm Scott Hanselman this is another episode of Hansel minutes today I'm episode of Hansel minutes today I'm episode of Hansel minutes today I'm chatting with Dr Kat Hicks she's a chatting with Dr Kat Hicks she's a chatting with Dr Kat Hicks she's a doctor of philosophy and research and doctor of philosophy and research and doctor of philosophy and research and experimental psychology a psychologist experimental psychology a psychologist experimental psychology a psychologist for software teams and you run the for software teams and you run the for software teams and you run the developer success Labs at plural site developer success Labs at plural site developer success Labs at plural site how are you I'm how are you I'm how are you I'm doing pretty okay at this moment you doing pretty okay at this moment you doing pretty okay at this moment you know um social science always feels like know um social science always feels like know um social science always feels like it has an important place in the world it has an important place in the world it has an important place in the world but I'm pretty fired up about the place but I'm pretty fired up about the place but I'm pretty fired up about the place it has right now so yeah now you are a it has right now so yeah now you are a it has right now so yeah now you are a uh PhD in Psychology but you focus on uh PhD in Psychology but you focus on uh PhD in Psychology but you focus on the psychology of software teams do you the psychology of software teams do you the psychology of software teams do you have a background in coding as well you have a background in coding as well you have a background in coding as well you know I have a background in teaching know I have a background in teaching know I have a background in teaching myself to code in order to get things myself to code in order to get things myself to code in order to get things done that I want to get done which I done that I want to get done which I done that I want to get done which I think resonates with a lot of folks um I think resonates with a lot of folks um I think resonates with a lot of folks um I don't have a computer science background don't have a computer science background don't have a computer science background but I have a social background so in but I have a social background so in but I have a social background so in Psychology we tend to focus on things Psychology we tend to focus on things Psychology we tend to focus on things like how do we measure big human like how do we measure big human like how do we measure big human experiences how do we develop research experiences how do we develop research experiences how do we develop research methodologies that serve that um but in methodologies that serve that um but in methodologies that serve that um but in that work you have to learn a lot about that work you have to learn a lot about that work you have to learn a lot about data you have to learn a lot about data you have to learn a lot about data you have to learn a lot about statistics so I kind of came into being statistics so I kind of came into being statistics so I kind of came into being curious about coding from the side of curious about coding from the side of curious about coding from the side of just needing to solve a bunch of just needing to solve a bunch of just needing to solve a bunch of complicated statistics problems so with complicated statistics problems so with complicated statistics problems so with respect to all of my wonderful developer respect to all of my wonderful developer respect to all of my wonderful developer friends I don't call myself a developer friends I don't call myself a developer friends I don't call myself a developer but I do write a lot of code if we want but I do write a lot of code if we want but I do write a lot of code if we want to measure by lines of code yeah well I to measure by lines of code yeah well I to measure by lines of code yeah well I mean is there I mean is there a mean is there I mean is there a mean is there I mean is there a difference between like a self-taught difference between like a self-taught difference between like a self-taught developer I mean plural site's all about developer I mean plural site's all about developer I mean plural site's all about self-taught developers I used to call it self-taught developers I used to call it self-taught developers I used to call it Netflix for ab for selftaught developers Netflix for ab for selftaught developers Netflix for ab for selftaught developers that's like the whole point is teach that's like the whole point is teach that's like the whole point is teach yourself to code like other than the yourself to code like other than the yourself to code like other than the formality of a degree I don't really

formality of a degree I don't really formality of a degree I don't really think there's oh no no I think think there's oh no no I think think there's oh no no I think self-taught um you know taught by you self-taught um you know taught by you self-taught um you know taught by you know having a degree or not like that's know having a degree or not like that's know having a degree or not like that's one of the beautiful things about um one of the beautiful things about um one of the beautiful things about um software as an industry is there are so software as an industry is there are so software as an industry is there are so many routes in um I don't work as a many routes in um I don't work as a many routes in um I don't work as a software developer myself but I consider software developer myself but I consider software developer myself but I consider myself a partner to software developers myself a partner to software developers myself a partner to software developers always listening to them actually always listening to them actually always listening to them actually co-author some research with software co-author some research with software co-author some research with software developers on our research team developers on our research team developers on our research team sometimes so I like to tell engineering sometimes so I like to tell engineering sometimes so I like to tell engineering teams like you know um imagine having a teams like you know um imagine having a teams like you know um imagine having a psychologist like they're at your side psychologist like they're at your side psychologist like they're at your side like they're at your elow to ask like they're at your elow to ask like they're at your elow to ask questions that's the role I kind of play questions that's the role I kind of play questions that's the role I kind of play now there's a couple of words because now there's a couple of words because now there's a couple of words because I'm a developer I want to parse out on I'm a developer I want to parse out on I'm a developer I want to parse out on your website at Dr Cat hi.com and the your website at Dr Cat hi.com and the your website at Dr Cat hi.com and the two words are two words are two words are empirical and quantitative you run empirical and quantitative you run empirical and quantitative you run Empirical research lab and you are a Empirical research lab and you are a Empirical research lab and you are a quantitative scientist that as a non PhD quantitative scientist that as a non PhD quantitative scientist that as a non PhD and a non- psychologist I think of and a non- psychologist I think of and a non- psychologist I think of psychology being as being somewhat psychology being as being somewhat psychology being as being somewhat squishy but those words are not squishy squishy but those words are not squishy squishy but those words are not squishy words can you help me reconcile that words can you help me reconcile that words can you help me reconcile that absolutely yeah so I say empirical absolutely yeah so I say empirical absolutely yeah so I say empirical because it is basically a shared because it is basically a shared because it is basically a shared practice that we as scientists out there practice that we as scientists out there practice that we as scientists out there in the world and I mean scientists in the world and I mean scientists in the world and I mean scientists really broadly so social scientists really broadly so social scientists really broadly so social scientists behavioral scientists all the way down behavioral scientists all the way down behavioral scientists all the way down to you know um or across let's say let's to you know um or across let's say let's to you know um or across let's say let's not do up and down but across to lab not do up and down but across to lab not do up and down but across to lab scientists and and folks that you might scientists and and folks that you might scientists and and folks that you might think of when you hear the word science think of when you hear the word science think of when you hear the word science like people who do biology work people like people who do biology work people like people who do biology work people who do chemistry we all have uh shared who do chemistry we all have uh shared who do chemistry we all have uh shared agreements about how science and agreements about how science and agreements about how science and experiments and the scientific method

experiments and the scientific method experiments and the scientific method and creating evidence should work and so and creating evidence should work and so and creating evidence should work and so psychologists have their own version of psychologists have their own version of psychologists have their own version of this and indeed we do work on things this and indeed we do work on things this and indeed we do work on things that can be very hard to measure like that can be very hard to measure like that can be very hard to measure like that's an extremely true accurate that's an extremely true accurate that's an extremely true accurate Instinct of yours to say well Human Instinct of yours to say well Human Instinct of yours to say well Human Experience is very complicated um it's Experience is very complicated um it's Experience is very complicated um it's difficult to measure but I do like to difficult to measure but I do like to difficult to measure but I do like to tell people as well measuring the light tell people as well measuring the light tell people as well measuring the light that comes to us from stars is also that comes to us from stars is also that comes to us from stars is also clouded by atmospheric dust and has clouded by atmospheric dust and has clouded by atmospheric dust and has measurement error in it so in Psychology measurement error in it so in Psychology measurement error in it so in Psychology if we do empirical work we try to go if we do empirical work we try to go if we do empirical work we try to go measure phenomena in the world we try to measure phenomena in the world we try to measure phenomena in the world we try to understand effects just like any understand effects just like any understand effects just like any scientist uh we actually create a lot of scientist uh we actually create a lot of scientist uh we actually create a lot of statistics and math that other statistics and math that other statistics and math that other scientific Fields use so shout out you scientific Fields use so shout out you scientific Fields use so shout out you know to ology for that and together we know to ology for that and together we know to ology for that and together we work on creating empirical evidence in work on creating empirical evidence in work on creating empirical evidence in these worlds so you know there's a lot these worlds so you know there's a lot these worlds so you know there's a lot of different pieces we could go into of different pieces we could go into of different pieces we could go into quantitative to me as well means that I quantitative to me as well means that I quantitative to me as well means that I put numbers to things so I focus for put numbers to things so I focus for put numbers to things so I focus for instance in the developer success lab instance in the developer success lab instance in the developer success lab among many other things on creating some among many other things on creating some among many other things on creating some scales that we use to measure complex scales that we use to measure complex scales that we use to measure complex behavioral experiences of developers so behavioral experiences of developers so behavioral experiences of developers so for instance do you feel like you belong for instance do you feel like you belong for instance do you feel like you belong on your software team uh this is a hard on your software team uh this is a hard on your software team uh this is a hard thing to get at you can get at it in a thing to get at you can get at it in a thing to get at you can get at it in a research interview I actually love and research interview I actually love and research interview I actually love and use qualitative methods as well but the use qualitative methods as well but the use qualitative methods as well but the quantitative side of it includes saying quantitative side of it includes saying quantitative side of it includes saying well let's come up with you know a well let's come up with you know a well let's come up with you know a survey that's really really good that survey that's really really good that survey that's really really good that we've tested across thousands of people we've tested across thousands of people we've tested across thousands of people and it performs pretty well and it and it performs pretty well and it and it performs pretty well and it predicts other things that we care about predicts other things that we care about predicts other things that we care about it's a good signal right it's a it's a

it's a good signal right it's a it's a it's a good signal right it's a it's a thing that we've come up with to help thing that we've come up with to help thing that we've come up with to help guide us yeah it seems like right now guide us yeah it seems like right now guide us yeah it seems like right now without getting staying somewhat oblique without getting staying somewhat oblique without getting staying somewhat oblique we are in a time where people seem to be we are in a time where people seem to be we are in a time where people seem to be wanting to go with their gut and their wanting to go with their gut and their wanting to go with their gut and their intuition intuition intuition and if your intuition says it's so then and if your intuition says it's so then and if your intuition says it's so then you declare this is so but facts are you declare this is so but facts are you declare this is so but facts are still facts do facts still apply in the still facts do facts still apply in the still facts do facts still apply in the world of uh of psychology like do humans world of uh of psychology like do humans world of uh of psychology like do humans as a general rule always act in this way as a general rule always act in this way as a general rule always act in this way you know I'm sure that there's a bell you know I'm sure that there's a bell you know I'm sure that there's a bell curve and that there's extremes on both curve and that there's extremes on both curve and that there's extremes on both sides but as a general rule I can test sides but as a general rule I can test sides but as a general rule I can test something in science I can test something in science I can test something in science I can test something with physics and light like something with physics and light like something with physics and light like you use the example of space and light you use the example of space and light you use the example of space and light and it is reliably reproducible H yes so and it is reliably reproducible H yes so and it is reliably reproducible H yes so so all of science has to ask itself you so all of science has to ask itself you so all of science has to ask itself you know we gathered up some really specific know we gathered up some really specific know we gathered up some really specific evidence and we're limited human beings evidence and we're limited human beings evidence and we're limited human beings and will that evidence hold up like will and will that evidence hold up like will and will that evidence hold up like will it generalize that's a good you know it generalize that's a good you know it generalize that's a good you know word there and that you kind of used um word there and that you kind of used um word there and that you kind of used um you know and psychology asked this you know and psychology asked this you know and psychology asked this question as well and we're a human field question as well and we're a human field question as well and we're a human field you know so we have incomplete evidence you know so we have incomplete evidence you know so we have incomplete evidence about things but we do see a lot of about things but we do see a lot of about things but we do see a lot of really interesting helpful things that really interesting helpful things that really interesting helpful things that we can we can we can um lean into and learn from when we're um lean into and learn from when we're um lean into and learn from when we're trying to generalize about human trying to generalize about human trying to generalize about human behavior so you know sense of belonging behavior so you know sense of belonging behavior so you know sense of belonging is actually a good example we've seen is actually a good example we've seen is actually a good example we've seen that if we measure sense of bonging it that if we measure sense of bonging it that if we measure sense of bonging it predicts real world outcomes and real predicts real world outcomes and real predicts real world outcomes and real world behaviors so if you you know join world behaviors so if you you know join world behaviors so if you you know join a field and you feel like you really a field and you feel like you really a field and you feel like you really belong in it you're more likely to

belong in it you're more likely to belong in it you're more likely to persist you're more likely to stay in a persist you're more likely to stay in a persist you're more likely to stay in a degree you're more likely to earn good degree you're more likely to earn good degree you're more likely to earn good grades outcomes that people tend to feel grades outcomes that people tend to feel grades outcomes that people tend to feel very tangible very real right and on the very tangible very real right and on the very tangible very real right and on the other hand a big part of psychology is other hand a big part of psychology is other hand a big part of psychology is also I'd say the flip side it's saying also I'd say the flip side it's saying also I'd say the flip side it's saying where do the things we think are rules where do the things we think are rules where do the things we think are rules actually fall down so for instance you actually fall down so for instance you actually fall down so for instance you know if you really love your work and know if you really love your work and know if you really love your work and you feel a strong sense of belonging but you feel a strong sense of belonging but you feel a strong sense of belonging but you're not getting enough money to buy you're not getting enough money to buy you're not getting enough money to buy your groceries sense of belonging won't your groceries sense of belonging won't your groceries sense of belonging won't keep you in that field so I think that keep you in that field so I think that keep you in that field so I think that we are allowed to both look for we are allowed to both look for we are allowed to both look for generalizable rules but also a big part generalizable rules but also a big part generalizable rules but also a big part of science is asking where's the context of science is asking where's the context of science is asking where's the context where these rules don't apply so we get where these rules don't apply so we get where these rules don't apply so we get to do both things actually it's very to do both things actually it's very to do both things actually it's very hard hard hard work why do something like sense of work why do something like sense of work why do something like sense of belonging right now feels like an belonging right now feels like an belonging right now feels like an important thing but I feels like some important thing but I feels like some important thing but I feels like some people can really dismiss it like just people can really dismiss it like just people can really dismiss it like just suck it up cat why don't you just work suck it up cat why don't you just work suck it up cat why don't you just work you know I mean pull yourself up by your you know I mean pull yourself up by your you know I mean pull yourself up by your own bootstraps and just do the thing own bootstraps and just do the thing own bootstraps and just do the thing right yeah but if you're you're right yeah but if you're you're right yeah but if you're you're literally describing that like business literally describing that like business literally describing that like business will be better if people feel like they will be better if people feel like they will be better if people feel like they belong like if the goal here is belong like if the goal here is belong like if the goal here is capitalism and spinning the capitalism capitalism and spinning the capitalism capitalism and spinning the capitalism meter then a business person should be meter then a business person should be meter then a business person should be interested in the fact that hey your interested in the fact that hey your interested in the fact that hey your developers all don't feel like they developers all don't feel like they developers all don't feel like they belong therefore products are slipping belong therefore products are slipping belong therefore products are slipping schedules are slipping developer schedules are slipping developer schedules are slipping developer happiness is happiness is happiness is low why would not the the the people on low why would not the the the people on low why would not the the the people on the political Spectrum who are most the political Spectrum who are most the political Spectrum who are most interested in business why would they interested in business why would they interested in business why would they not be all in on your kind of

not be all in on your kind of not be all in on your kind of work so I think that we tend to believe work so I think that we tend to believe work so I think that we tend to believe we have this kind of pervasive we have this kind of pervasive we have this kind of pervasive stereotype that technical work comes stereotype that technical work comes stereotype that technical work comes from isolated software developers from isolated software developers from isolated software developers grinding and you know you might this grinding and you know you might this grinding and you know you might this familiar yeah Geniuses 10x developers familiar yeah Geniuses 10x developers familiar yeah Geniuses 10x developers you know um people who are kind of you know um people who are kind of you know um people who are kind of isolated and what's interesting and isolated and what's interesting and isolated and what's interesting and tricky about this is that these beliefs tricky about this is that these beliefs tricky about this is that these beliefs aren't wrong like in some way there's aren't wrong like in some way there's aren't wrong like in some way there's grains of Truth in them I think that grains of Truth in them I think that grains of Truth in them I think that when we activate those beliefs way too when we activate those beliefs way too when we activate those beliefs way too much and that's all we see it leads us much and that's all we see it leads us much and that's all we see it leads us in the wrong direction but believing in the wrong direction but believing in the wrong direction but believing that you need Focus times is ultimately that you need Focus times is ultimately that you need Focus times is ultimately makes a lot of sense and seeing yourself makes a lot of sense and seeing yourself makes a lot of sense and seeing yourself grinding I mean you can see that grinding I mean you can see that grinding I mean you can see that sometimes be a thing you have to do the sometimes be a thing you have to do the sometimes be a thing you have to do the problem is that we also have these kind problem is that we also have these kind problem is that we also have these kind of shared normative beliefs across like of shared normative beliefs across like of shared normative beliefs across like our team or across our organization so our team or across our organization so our team or across our organization so think of it this way like have you ever think of it this way like have you ever think of it this way like have you ever been on a team where you know you sort been on a team where you know you sort been on a team where you know you sort of start picking up just this feeling of start picking up just this feeling of start picking up just this feeling that like you shouldn't tell them that that like you shouldn't tell them that that like you shouldn't tell them that you went home early you know right The you went home early you know right The you went home early you know right The Vibes are off exactly that's our minds Vibes are off exactly that's our minds Vibes are off exactly that's our minds are always scanning our environments and are always scanning our environments and are always scanning our environments and asking like what does the success mean asking like what does the success mean asking like what does the success mean here how are other people going to think here how are other people going to think here how are other people going to think about success here now This concerns me about success here now This concerns me about success here now This concerns me a lot on software teams because I think a lot on software teams because I think a lot on software teams because I think baked into what we need to happen for baked into what we need to happen for baked into what we need to happen for Innovation to happen and problem solving Innovation to happen and problem solving Innovation to happen and problem solving to happen in this culture my research to happen in this culture my research to happen in this culture my research looks into this is that we actually

looks into this is that we actually looks into this is that we actually really need to surround people with really need to surround people with really need to surround people with these cultures of things like that might these cultures of things like that might these cultures of things like that might feel squishy or that we might have feel squishy or that we might have feel squishy or that we might have neglected so you know for example done a neglected so you know for example done a neglected so you know for example done a research study we looked at research study we looked at research study we looked at 1282 different 1282 different 1282 different developers and we measured their sense developers and we measured their sense developers and we measured their sense of belonging and we measured whether of belonging and we measured whether of belonging and we measured whether they felt like they had that time to they felt like they had that time to they felt like they had that time to learn and all of these things that felt learn and all of these things that felt learn and all of these things that felt more squishy and then we also asked them more squishy and then we also asked them more squishy and then we also asked them to report to us how productive were you to report to us how productive were you to report to us how productive were you in the last month and we can you know in the last month and we can you know in the last month and we can you know there's the quantitative empirical side there's the quantitative empirical side there's the quantitative empirical side we can actually statistically we can actually statistically we can actually statistically significantly see folks who are on teams significantly see folks who are on teams significantly see folks who are on teams with a high sense of belonging say I'm with a high sense of belonging say I'm with a high sense of belonging say I'm more productive um they also report that more productive um they also report that more productive um they also report that their teams are more effective we find their teams are more effective we find their teams are more effective we find that in my research as well so these are that in my research as well so these are that in my research as well so these are quite measurable things in fact I think quite measurable things in fact I think quite measurable things in fact I think a lot of the time we're just not a lot of the time we're just not a lot of the time we're just not measuring it yeah you had a really measuring it yeah you had a really measuring it yeah you had a really interesting paper uh on code review interesting paper uh on code review interesting paper uh on code review anxiety and again I I call out the anxiety and again I I call out the anxiety and again I I call out the juxtoposition between the very hard uh juxtoposition between the very hard uh juxtoposition between the very hard uh code review it's very scientific and code review it's very scientific and code review it's very scientific and then anxiety which could arguably be then anxiety which could arguably be then anxiety which could arguably be presented by some as being a squishy presented by some as being a squishy presented by some as being a squishy human thing and one could point at that human thing and one could point at that human thing and one could point at that and well suck it up don't be anxious but and well suck it up don't be anxious but and well suck it up don't be anxious but people people are anxious and that's a people people are anxious and that's a people people are anxious and that's a thing and code review anxiety like thing and code review anxiety like thing and code review anxiety like doesn't just impact individual humans doesn't just impact individual humans doesn't just impact individual humans and make them feel some kind of way but and make them feel some kind of way but and make them feel some kind of way but it literally makes the organization less it literally makes the organization less it literally makes the organization less successful and you've proven that in successful and you've proven that in successful and you've proven that in your in your in your paper absolutely we your in your in your paper absolutely we your in your in your paper absolutely we found that you know we we measured um found that you know we we measured um found that you know we we measured um avoidance behaviors so if you're feeling avoidance behaviors so if you're feeling avoidance behaviors so if you're feeling this anxiety How likely are you to do

this anxiety How likely are you to do this anxiety How likely are you to do stuff like not do the code review at all stuff like not do the code review at all stuff like not do the code review at all or just mentally check out of it like or just mentally check out of it like or just mentally check out of it like you probably can think about if you've you probably can think about if you've you probably can think about if you've ever been in a situation where you're ever been in a situation where you're ever been in a situation where you're just like I'm just gonna get through just like I'm just gonna get through just like I'm just gonna get through this ah you know don't want to be here this ah you know don't want to be here this ah you know don't want to be here don't want to be having this experience don't want to be having this experience don't want to be having this experience that's called avoidance and we see that that's called avoidance and we see that that's called avoidance and we see that happen a lot like one of the ways this happen a lot like one of the ways this happen a lot like one of the ways this works in your mind in your cognition is works in your mind in your cognition is works in your mind in your cognition is that anxiety draws on the same resources that anxiety draws on the same resources that anxiety draws on the same resources in your mind and from your brain as in your mind and from your brain as in your mind and from your brain as problem solving does because it is a problem solving does because it is a problem solving does because it is a form of problem solving you're just form of problem solving you're just form of problem solving you're just trying to problem solve about your trying to problem solve about your trying to problem solve about your social experience so there's a direct social experience so there's a direct social experience so there's a direct connection there like you you're not you connection there like you you're not you connection there like you you're not you can't use as much of your working memory can't use as much of your working memory can't use as much of your working memory for code if you're using it to worry for code if you're using it to worry for code if you're using it to worry that your colleagues are looking to fire that your colleagues are looking to fire that your colleagues are looking to fire you if you say the wrong thing in a code you if you say the wrong thing in a code you if you say the wrong thing in a code review yeah so the one of the things review yeah so the one of the things review yeah so the one of the things that I've found interesting is I that I've found interesting is I that I've found interesting is I juxtapose my own journey and my juxtapose my own journey and my juxtapose my own journey and my own own own um impostor syndrome which is based on a um impostor syndrome which is based on a um impostor syndrome which is based on a socio my socioeconomic background and socio my socioeconomic background and socio my socioeconomic background and going to a community college I went to going to a community college I went to going to a community college I went to Portland Community College so my sense Portland Community College so my sense Portland Community College so my sense of not belonging was like my first job I of not belonging was like my first job I of not belonging was like my first job I show up it's me and other guys they're show up it's me and other guys they're show up it's me and other guys they're all older than me so there's the age all older than me so there's the age all older than me so there's the age thing and then they all went to colleges thing and then they all went to colleges thing and then they all went to colleges with names you know what I mean so it's with names you know what I mean so it's with names you know what I mean so it's like oh Duke and this and that and I like oh Duke and this and that and I like oh Duke and this and that and I went to the PCC and I'm still going to went to the PCC and I'm still going to went to the PCC and I'm still going to school at night so for me going into a school at night so for me going into a school at night so for me going into a code review my anxiety was like they're code review my anxiety was like they're code review my anxiety was like they're gonna find out that I'm an idiot yeah gonna find out that I'm an idiot yeah gonna find out that I'm an idiot yeah yeah you know what I mean and I think I

yeah you know what I mean and I think I yeah you know what I mean and I think I think that those are reasonable things think that those are reasonable things think that those are reasonable things for me to explain and if I'm on a group for me to explain and if I'm on a group for me to explain and if I'm on a group with five dudes and we all from the same with five dudes and we all from the same with five dudes and we all from the same general neighborhood we all grw up in general neighborhood we all grw up in general neighborhood we all grw up in Portland and the only difference quote Portland and the only difference quote Portland and the only difference quote unquote difference is they had money and unquote difference is they had money and unquote difference is they had money and I didn't and they went to schools that I didn't and they went to schools that I didn't and they went to schools that have names and I didn't then I think have names and I didn't then I think have names and I didn't then I think anybody of any background can understand anybody of any background can understand anybody of any background can understand why I would feel some kind of way going why I would feel some kind of way going why I would feel some kind of way going into a code review but then I feel like into a code review but then I feel like into a code review but then I feel like if you add in gender and race and if you add in gender and race and if you add in gender and race and background and language and all the background and language and all the background and language and all the other pie charts of one's identity that other pie charts of one's identity that other pie charts of one's identity that seems to trigger something in some seems to trigger something in some seems to trigger something in some people where they're like well that people where they're like well that people where they're like well that person shouldn't feel that way at all person shouldn't feel that way at all person shouldn't feel that way at all because you know I don't see what because you know I don't see what because you know I don't see what whatever you don't see color you don't whatever you don't see color you don't whatever you don't see color you don't see the but see people seem to be able see the but see people seem to be able see the but see people seem to be able to see that I went to a different to see that I went to a different to see that I went to a different college and I went had a different college and I went had a different college and I went had a different background and those are quote unquote background and those are quote unquote background and those are quote unquote valid reasons to be anxious but then valid reasons to be anxious but then valid reasons to be anxious but then they invalidate the other reasons that they invalidate the other reasons that they invalidate the other reasons that one could potentially be anxious going one could potentially be anxious going one could potentially be anxious going into a code review is there a question into a code review is there a question into a code review is there a question in here I guess the question is does in here I guess the question is does in here I guess the question is does that does that make sense to you is that that does that make sense to you is that that does that make sense to you is that a reasonable framing for me to a reasonable framing for me to a reasonable framing for me to understand why one would have anxiety understand why one would have anxiety understand why one would have anxiety and self-efficacy I I think absolutely and self-efficacy I I think absolutely and self-efficacy I I think absolutely like I think that you know so you you like I think that you know so you you like I think that you know so you you brought up a lot of things here you know brought up a lot of things here you know brought up a lot of things here you know one one thing that comes into my mind is one one thing that comes into my mind is one one thing that comes into my mind is you know we can struggle to empathize you know we can struggle to empathize you know we can struggle to empathize with people who we don't feel like are with people who we don't feel like are with people who we don't feel like are necessarily part of our group this is um necessarily part of our group this is um necessarily part of our group this is um sometimes in Psychology we call this US sometimes in Psychology we call this US sometimes in Psychology we call this US versus them we have this capacity in our versus them we have this capacity in our versus them we have this capacity in our minds to just be like oh my gosh this is

minds to just be like oh my gosh this is minds to just be like oh my gosh this is my ingroup and this is my outgroup and my ingroup and this is my outgroup and my ingroup and this is my outgroup and and that's you know sometimes very and that's you know sometimes very and that's you know sometimes very natural like think about going to a natural like think about going to a natural like think about going to a sports game right um but it can be very sports game right um but it can be very sports game right um but it can be very frightening and scary as well and and it frightening and scary as well and and it frightening and scary as well and and it can lead people to create very large can lead people to create very large can lead people to create very large divisions um along things that are divisions um along things that are divisions um along things that are really harmful for our you know our our really harmful for our you know our our really harmful for our you know our our large many cultures world and I think large many cultures world and I think large many cultures world and I think that um you know it's really it's really that um you know it's really it's really that um you know it's really it's really insightful of you to think about the insightful of you to think about the insightful of you to think about the ways that you actually share a group ways that you actually share a group ways that you actually share a group with this other people and to say listen with this other people and to say listen with this other people and to say listen like have some empathy with me like you like have some empathy with me like you like have some empathy with me like you know see how close we are see how I'm a know see how close we are see how I'm a know see how close we are see how I'm a like you you know and we're all these like you you know and we're all these like you you know and we're all these things together but I had this different things together but I had this different things together but I had this different experience that is a way in to get experience that is a way in to get experience that is a way in to get empathy for people now of course the empathy for people now of course the empathy for people now of course the challenge I think is that we need to challenge I think is that we need to challenge I think is that we need to expand to consider many many identities expand to consider many many identities expand to consider many many identities in that um but I think it's a valid in that um but I think it's a valid in that um but I think it's a valid entry point yeah yeah and an interesting entry point yeah yeah and an interesting entry point yeah yeah and an interesting example right of sometimes we Overlook example right of sometimes we Overlook example right of sometimes we Overlook certain things um I've worked with a lot certain things um I've worked with a lot certain things um I've worked with a lot of community college students by the way of community college students by the way of community college students by the way so shout out to their so shout out to their so shout out to their Brilliance thank you I appreciate that Brilliance thank you I appreciate that Brilliance thank you I appreciate that like I feel like Community College like I feel like Community College like I feel like Community College worked out nicely for me and it can work worked out nicely for me and it can work worked out nicely for me and it can work out for others which then brings me into out for others which then brings me into out for others which then brings me into something that I think I developed something that I think I developed something that I think I developed during Community College which is we are during Community College which is we are during Community College which is we are calling it technical calling it technical calling it technical resiliency you know I've heard like resiliency you know I've heard like resiliency you know I've heard like spoons Theory and like you know who's spoons Theory and like you know who's spoons Theory and like you know who's got the resiliency and who doesn't but got the resiliency and who doesn't but got the resiliency and who doesn't but like the idea that um over the years I like the idea that um over the years I like the idea that um over the years I took those experiences and was able to took those experiences and was able to took those experiences and was able to go and develop some sense of resiliency go and develop some sense of resiliency go and develop some sense of resiliency where like yeah I can go into a code where like yeah I can go into a code where like yeah I can go into a code review I can go into a meeting and I may

review I can go into a meeting and I may review I can go into a meeting and I may not be I may not know what I don't know not be I may not know what I don't know not be I may not know what I don't know but I definitely know what I know and but I definitely know what I know and but I definitely know what I know and I'm confident in that and I want more I'm confident in that and I want more I'm confident in that and I want more people to to get that and I feel like people to to get that and I feel like people to to get that and I feel like they need to get that by not quitting they need to get that by not quitting they need to get that by not quitting the industry completely like the only the industry completely like the only the industry completely like the only way you can have a 30-year career in way you can have a 30-year career in way you can have a 30-year career in Tech is by sticking around for 30 years Tech is by sticking around for 30 years Tech is by sticking around for 30 years and not getting bullied out you know and not getting bullied out you know and not getting bullied out you know what I mean it's a fundamental problem what I mean it's a fundamental problem what I mean it's a fundamental problem and so if we want to solve that problem and so if we want to solve that problem and so if we want to solve that problem we have to ask okay okay like what is it we have to ask okay okay like what is it we have to ask okay okay like what is it that we can do to help people stick that we can do to help people stick that we can do to help people stick around long enough to get to become the around long enough to get to become the around long enough to get to become the experienced people yeah yeah so I guess experienced people yeah yeah so I guess experienced people yeah yeah so I guess my question is I'm sorry go ahead oh I my question is I'm sorry go ahead oh I my question is I'm sorry go ahead oh I was just going to say I think there's was just going to say I think there's was just going to say I think there's multiple ways to contribute to that multiple ways to contribute to that multiple ways to contribute to that answer and one way is individual level answer and one way is individual level answer and one way is individual level resilience you know so you mentioned resilience you know so you mentioned resilience you know so you mentioned self-efficacy if folks don't know what self-efficacy if folks don't know what self-efficacy if folks don't know what that is it's essentially like if you that is it's essentially like if you that is it's essentially like if you have a challenging situation unexpected have a challenging situation unexpected have a challenging situation unexpected friction comes up like a um a code friction comes up like a um a code friction comes up like a um a code review that makes you feel really review that makes you feel really review that makes you feel really anxious in our research for instance we anxious in our research for instance we anxious in our research for instance we found if you can help people build more found if you can help people build more found if you can help people build more selfefficacy for that moment that means selfefficacy for that moment that means selfefficacy for that moment that means you believe that you will figure out how you believe that you will figure out how you believe that you will figure out how to get past it that helps them persist to get past it that helps them persist to get past it that helps them persist right and life really is kind of like right and life really is kind of like right and life really is kind of like those little steps like one moment more those little steps like one moment more those little steps like one moment more of persisting one moment more of of persisting one moment more of of persisting one moment more of believing in yourself self-efficacy is believing in yourself self-efficacy is believing in yourself self-efficacy is also something that we measured in my also something that we measured in my also something that we measured in my research and found it it predicts um research and found it it predicts um research and found it it predicts um developers productivity so I think it's developers productivity so I think it's developers productivity so I think it's a big one yeah I try to figure out how a big one yeah I try to figure out how a big one yeah I try to figure out how do you teach that though especially I do you teach that though especially I do you teach that though especially I would say that we're in a time now where would say that we're in a time now where would say that we're in a time now where attention span is also lowered and one attention span is also lowered and one attention span is also lowered and one of the things that I've noticed both on of the things that I've noticed both on of the things that I've noticed both on um on on plural site but others is that

um on on plural site but others is that um on on plural site but others is that the amount of attention span that the amount of attention span that the amount of attention span that someone has used to be an hour and now someone has used to be an hour and now someone has used to be an hour and now it's like 11 minutes like I I run a I it's like 11 minutes like I I run a I it's like 11 minutes like I I run a I run another podcast called Azure Friday run another podcast called Azure Friday run another podcast called Azure Friday we've done 750 episodes we did some data we've done 750 episodes we did some data we've done 750 episodes we did some data science on it and people basically tune science on it and people basically tune science on it and people basically tune out after 11 minutes uhuh and I'm like out after 11 minutes uhuh and I'm like out after 11 minutes uhuh and I'm like ah that sucks so then is the answer to ah that sucks so then is the answer to ah that sucks so then is the answer to take your plural site course and break take your plural site course and break take your plural site course and break it up into a lot of like 11 minute it up into a lot of like 11 minute it up into a lot of like 11 minute chunks okay I like this a learning chunks okay I like this a learning chunks okay I like this a learning engagement question um so there's a engagement question um so there's a engagement question um so there's a couple things I would ask you in return couple things I would ask you in return couple things I would ask you in return one is are there things that you see one is are there things that you see one is are there things that you see people do for more than 11 minutes see people do for more than 11 minutes see people do for more than 11 minutes see that's the though like how do you that's the though like how do you that's the though like how do you measure thing right like people will be measure thing right like people will be measure thing right like people will be on Tik Tok for hours but it's tiny on Tik Tok for hours but it's tiny on Tik Tok for hours but it's tiny little bursts of Serotonin over a period little bursts of Serotonin over a period little bursts of Serotonin over a period of time and I think it's fair for us to of time and I think it's fair for us to of time and I think it's fair for us to ask okay sometimes you have a tiny slice ask okay sometimes you have a tiny slice ask okay sometimes you have a tiny slice of attention so let's think about of attention so let's think about of attention so let's think about getting you know getting that for tiny getting you know getting that for tiny getting you know getting that for tiny slices and I I used to work in education slices and I I used to work in education slices and I I used to work in education and that was always our question was and that was always our question was and that was always our question was like you have a very limited amount of like you have a very limited amount of like you have a very limited amount of time with a child in a classroom and time with a child in a classroom and time with a child in a classroom and sometimes you're directly asking sometimes you're directly asking sometimes you're directly asking yourself uh should this child go you yourself uh should this child go you yourself uh should this child go you know play with their friends or rest know play with their friends or rest know play with their friends or rest their brain you know or do this math their brain you know or do this math their brain you know or do this math exercise like that's the efficacy exercise like that's the efficacy exercise like that's the efficacy question is your math exercise actually question is your math exercise actually question is your math exercise actually a good enough 10 minutes knowing that a good enough 10 minutes knowing that a good enough 10 minutes knowing that those 10 minutes are really valuable and those 10 minutes are really valuable and those 10 minutes are really valuable and finite uh in the in the time a child has finite uh in the in the time a child has finite uh in the in the time a child has in a classroom so I think it's fair for in a classroom so I think it's fair for in a classroom so I think it's fair for us to ask what can we do um you know in us to ask what can we do um you know in us to ask what can we do um you know in Psychology we actually do have some Psychology we actually do have some Psychology we actually do have some really interesting work on doing brief really interesting work on doing brief really interesting work on doing brief asynchronous interventions and one way

asynchronous interventions and one way asynchronous interventions and one way we do this is we lighten the load for we do this is we lighten the load for we do this is we lighten the load for people we give you kind of a short people we give you kind of a short people we give you kind of a short self-efficacy exercise as you can do self-efficacy exercise as you can do self-efficacy exercise as you can do like right before you're going to do a like right before you're going to do a like right before you're going to do a code review by the way we have this we code review by the way we have this we code review by the way we have this we have a workbook um out there for folks have a workbook um out there for folks have a workbook um out there for folks they can do this for themselves but then they can do this for themselves but then they can do this for themselves but then you try to repeat it and that really is you try to repeat it and that really is you try to repeat it and that really is key because honestly you won't change key because honestly you won't change key because honestly you won't change your own behavior with like a 10-minute your own behavior with like a 10-minute your own behavior with like a 10-minute meditation but you might change it if meditation but you might change it if meditation but you might change it if every time you know you really really every time you know you really really every time you know you really really worry um you start to bring yourself worry um you start to bring yourself worry um you start to bring yourself back to this and so we tend to call that back to this and so we tend to call that back to this and so we tend to call that um you know mindfulness right we tend to um you know mindfulness right we tend to um you know mindfulness right we tend to call that a virtuous cycle in Psychology call that a virtuous cycle in Psychology call that a virtuous cycle in Psychology and a lot of the intervention work that and a lot of the intervention work that and a lot of the intervention work that I'm interested in focuses on how can we I'm interested in focuses on how can we I'm interested in focuses on how can we craft virtuous Cycles one of the things craft virtuous Cycles one of the things craft virtuous Cycles one of the things that I find super cool almost like that I find super cool almost like that I find super cool almost like programmatically cool so maybe you'll programmatically cool so maybe you'll programmatically cool so maybe you'll appreciate this as an engineer is you appreciate this as an engineer is you appreciate this as an engineer is you know there are gains and changes that know there are gains and changes that know there are gains and changes that happen just from quantity like okay we happen just from quantity like okay we happen just from quantity like okay we need 5 hours of exposure for someone to need 5 hours of exposure for someone to need 5 hours of exposure for someone to learn X but there are actually category learn X but there are actually category learn X but there are actually category orical switches that we can make if we orical switches that we can make if we orical switches that we can make if we get someone to pull on a different set get someone to pull on a different set get someone to pull on a different set of beliefs and I love that stuff that of beliefs and I love that stuff that of beliefs and I love that stuff that stuff is my jam I find it very hopeful stuff is my jam I find it very hopeful stuff is my jam I find it very hopeful and the reason that I find it hopeful is and the reason that I find it hopeful is and the reason that I find it hopeful is it puts the person in the driver's seat it puts the person in the driver's seat it puts the person in the driver's seat we've given them a different way of we've given them a different way of we've given them a different way of viewing their challenging experience and viewing their challenging experience and viewing their challenging experience and then they are the ones who can pull on then they are the ones who can pull on then they are the ones who can pull on that again and again they reinforce that that again and again they reinforce that that again and again they reinforce that cycle so I do think small things can add cycle so I do think small things can add cycle so I do think small things can add up yeah long answer short to to that

up yeah long answer short to to that up yeah long answer short to to that short question but yeah yeah one of the short question but yeah yeah one of the short question but yeah yeah one of the small things that adds up that I saw in small things that adds up that I saw in small things that adds up that I saw in another one of your studies was uh another one of your studies was uh another one of your studies was uh successful hackathons and how it changes successful hackathons and how it changes successful hackathons and how it changes how teams do stuff like why is it that how teams do stuff like why is it that how teams do stuff like why is it that not coding on the thing you code on all not coding on the thing you code on all not coding on the thing you code on all the time and instead taking a short the time and instead taking a short the time and instead taking a short Sprint and coding on something totally Sprint and coding on something totally Sprint and coding on something totally unrelated would make you a better team unrelated would make you a better team unrelated would make you a better team yeah so have you ever had the experience yeah so have you ever had the experience yeah so have you ever had the experience of thinking like I I don't know what it of thinking like I I don't know what it of thinking like I I don't know what it would be for you stop like I'm this kind would be for you stop like I'm this kind would be for you stop like I'm this kind of guy like I'm ex language or I'm like of guy like I'm ex language or I'm like of guy like I'm ex language or I'm like X you know framework I mean I hear X you know framework I mean I hear X you know framework I mean I hear people kind of use this thing does that people kind of use this thing does that people kind of use this thing does that sound yeah well there's a so I I use it sound yeah well there's a so I I use it sound yeah well there's a so I I use it in a religious context so I will say in a religious context so I will say in a religious context so I will say like you know my religion would be like like you know my religion would be like like you know my religion would be like C but then I try to be non- C but then I try to be non- C but then I try to be non- denominational and open to other denominational and open to other denominational and open to other religions because I'm I see people over religions because I'm I see people over religions because I'm I see people over there doing JavaScript or people over there doing JavaScript or people over there doing JavaScript or people over there doing python they seem very happy there doing python they seem very happy there doing python they seem very happy so it's like visiting another visiting a so it's like visiting another visiting a so it's like visiting another visiting a mosque or visiting another person's mosque or visiting another person's mosque or visiting another person's church is like an opportunity to see how church is like an opportunity to see how church is like an opportunity to see how the other half lives yeah and I consider the other half lives yeah and I consider the other half lives yeah and I consider myself a psychologist like I'm like I myself a psychologist like I'm like I myself a psychologist like I'm like I love psychology I love reading love psychology I love reading love psychology I love reading psychology when I meet other psychology when I meet other psychology when I meet other psychologists out there I'm like Yay you psychologists out there I'm like Yay you psychologists out there I'm like Yay you know we share something but you know know we share something but you know know we share something but you know there are times when we want to be able there are times when we want to be able there are times when we want to be able to move that identity around and maybe to move that identity around and maybe to move that identity around and maybe be open to a different identity so be open to a different identity so be open to a different identity so imagine you're someone who's like worked imagine you're someone who's like worked imagine you're someone who's like worked on a product team and you've always kind on a product team and you've always kind on a product team and you've always kind of thought maybe I could you know do of thought maybe I could you know do of thought maybe I could you know do some coding but you haven't quite some coding but you haven't quite some coding but you haven't quite brought it to your job yet you know and brought it to your job yet you know and brought it to your job yet you know and bringing it to your job there's a lot of bringing it to your job there's a lot of bringing it to your job there's a lot of reasons you wouldn't you don't want to reasons you wouldn't you don't want to reasons you wouldn't you don't want to be embarrassed you are facilitating a

be embarrassed you are facilitating a be embarrassed you are facilitating a relationship with your manager you know relationship with your manager you know relationship with your manager you know maybe you're kind of contemplating I maybe you're kind of contemplating I maybe you're kind of contemplating I could change something you know we could change something you know we could change something you know we thought it was really fun to study thought it was really fun to study thought it was really fun to study hackathons because hackathons almost hackathons because hackathons almost hackathons because hackathons almost create like a psychologically Safe Way create like a psychologically Safe Way create like a psychologically Safe Way for people to experiment with new roles for people to experiment with new roles for people to experiment with new roles without like all the overload of okay I without like all the overload of okay I without like all the overload of okay I really want to take this step and I'm really want to take this step and I'm really want to take this step and I'm gonna convince my boss and all that gonna convince my boss and all that gonna convince my boss and all that stuff like I think the temporary team stuff like I think the temporary team stuff like I think the temporary team experience of a hackathon is really neat experience of a hackathon is really neat experience of a hackathon is really neat and what we saw was you know a lot of and what we saw was you know a lot of and what we saw was you know a lot of folks who actually worked on running the folks who actually worked on running the folks who actually worked on running the hackathon our engineers at plural site hackathon our engineers at plural site hackathon our engineers at plural site who were responsible for running the who were responsible for running the who were responsible for running the hackathon they came to my research lab hackathon they came to my research lab hackathon they came to my research lab and and they were curious like how can and and they were curious like how can and and they were curious like how can we measure the impacts of the hackathon we measure the impacts of the hackathon we measure the impacts of the hackathon you know to justify that it's worth you know to justify that it's worth you know to justify that it's worth doing and we were like okay we were doing and we were like okay we were doing and we were like okay we were actually thinking about participating in actually thinking about participating in actually thinking about participating in the hackathon ourselves as a research the hackathon ourselves as a research the hackathon ourselves as a research team so let's hack the hackathon that's team so let's hack the hackathon that's team so let's hack the hackathon that's how our experiment took place and what how our experiment took place and what how our experiment took place and what we wanted to do was to show that you we wanted to do was to show that you we wanted to do was to show that you know even if the hackathon didn't result know even if the hackathon didn't result know even if the hackathon didn't result in product features or those sorts of in product features or those sorts of in product features or those sorts of innovation outcomes that we typically innovation outcomes that we typically innovation outcomes that we typically might talk about in a business although might talk about in a business although might talk about in a business although those do happen we had person centered those do happen we had person centered those do happen we had person centered outcomes that actually really mattered outcomes that actually really mattered outcomes that actually really mattered so we saw that you know if people were so we saw that you know if people were so we saw that you know if people were on a supportive team they were more on a supportive team they were more on a supportive team they were more willing to try new skills after the willing to try new skills after the willing to try new skills after the hackathon and you know plural sit's all hackathon and you know plural sit's all hackathon and you know plural sit's all about you know understanding and about you know understanding and about you know understanding and encouraging these cultures of upskilling encouraging these cultures of upskilling encouraging these cultures of upskilling so that was a really cool thing to so that was a really cool thing to so that was a really cool thing to measure again it was happening it was measure again it was happening it was measure again it was happening it was just like no one had ever thought to

just like no one had ever thought to just like no one had ever thought to measure it before measure it before measure it before so so the developer success Labs were is so so the developer success Labs were is so so the developer success Labs were is a is a group within plural site and I a is a group within plural site and I a is a group within plural site and I have friends that are plural site have friends that are plural site have friends that are plural site authors they've made classes 10 15 years authors they've made classes 10 15 years authors they've made classes 10 15 years ago I made a bunch of plural site ago I made a bunch of plural site ago I made a bunch of plural site classes do the people making the classes classes do the people making the classes classes do the people making the classes apply the learnings that your lab apply the learnings that your lab apply the learnings that your lab creates to make their courses better I creates to make their courses better I creates to make their courses better I hope so I mean we're still pretty young hope so I mean we're still pretty young hope so I mean we're still pretty young so I founded um it just lab one word a so I founded um it just lab one word a so I founded um it just lab one word a developer success lab um I would love to developer success lab um I would love to developer success lab um I would love to be in a place where I'm running multiple be in a place where I'm running multiple be in a place where I'm running multiple Labs my bad my bad yeah uh lab Empire we Labs my bad my bad yeah uh lab Empire we Labs my bad my bad yeah uh lab Empire we can look forward to that um so we put can look forward to that um so we put can look forward to that um so we put out public facing work on you know out public facing work on you know out public facing work on you know topics that we think will help lift up topics that we think will help lift up topics that we think will help lift up the industry I do believe that plural the industry I do believe that plural the industry I do believe that plural site authors have engaged with our site authors have engaged with our site authors have engaged with our research I have not yet U maybe this is research I have not yet U maybe this is research I have not yet U maybe this is an aspirational goal for me I haven't an aspirational goal for me I haven't an aspirational goal for me I haven't yet seen our research actually mentioned yet seen our research actually mentioned yet seen our research actually mentioned in a plural site course I think although in a plural site course I think although in a plural site course I think although we've contributed some content to a lot we've contributed some content to a lot we've contributed some content to a lot of stuff like um you know uh Tech skills of stuff like um you know uh Tech skills of stuff like um you know uh Tech skills days and things like that that we run in days and things like that that we run in days and things like that that we run in the industry yeah okay one question I the industry yeah okay one question I the industry yeah okay one question I wanted to ask that might be a little bit wanted to ask that might be a little bit wanted to ask that might be a little bit off topic but it's in the space of how off topic but it's in the space of how off topic but it's in the space of how people learn and how people think there people learn and how people think there people learn and how people think there was an interesting uh Hacker News blog was an interesting uh Hacker News blog was an interesting uh Hacker News blog that kind of went viral that was a well that kind of went viral that was a well that kind of went viral that was a well you know there there's there's some you know there there's there's some you know there there's there's some value in certain when certain blogs show value in certain when certain blogs show value in certain when certain blogs show up and it was a plea to Junior up and it was a plea to Junior up and it was a plea to Junior developers using gen coding assistance developers using gen coding assistance developers using gen coding assistance oh uh so my first impression was like oh

oh uh so my first impression was like oh oh uh so my first impression was like oh this is like old man who shakes fist at this is like old man who shakes fist at this is like old man who shakes fist at Cloud um but the the the the first Cloud um but the the the the first Cloud um but the the the the first sentence hit me the early years of your sentence hit me the early years of your sentence hit me the early years of your career shape the kind of developer career shape the kind of developer career shape the kind of developer you'll become that's when you build you'll become that's when you build you'll become that's when you build problemsolving skills and knowledge that problemsolving skills and knowledge that problemsolving skills and knowledge that set you apart as an average engineer set you apart as an average engineer set you apart as an average engineer versus an excellent engineer yeah but versus an excellent engineer yeah but versus an excellent engineer yeah but what if all those formative years are what if all those formative years are what if all those formative years are outsourced to an AI that does the outsourced to an AI that does the outsourced to an AI that does the thinking for you so the question is I thinking for you so the question is I thinking for you so the question is I guess to you and I don't know if there's guess to you and I don't know if there's guess to you and I don't know if there's any data on this yet or it's just an an any data on this yet or it's just an an any data on this yet or it's just an an emerging space is you remember when emerging space is you remember when emerging space is you remember when calculators came out and they were like calculators came out and they were like calculators came out and they were like Hey look it's a TI 89 like you know and Hey look it's a TI 89 like you know and Hey look it's a TI 89 like you know and it's going to make it so you don't know it's going to make it so you don't know it's going to make it so you don't know how to do trigonometry yeah I remember how to do trigonometry yeah I remember how to do trigonometry yeah I remember they made us graph on paper and then we they made us graph on paper and then we they made us graph on paper and then we could use the calculator is there a could use the calculator is there a could use the calculator is there a correlation between gen gen tool uses correlation between gen gen tool uses correlation between gen gen tool uses and critical thinking or systems and critical thinking or systems and critical thinking or systems thinking skills cognitive offloading thinking skills cognitive offloading thinking skills cognitive offloading yeah yeah yeah yeah and and I've seen yeah yeah yeah yeah and and I've seen yeah yeah yeah yeah and and I've seen some research on the possibility that some research on the possibility that some research on the possibility that using a gen tool will create cognitive using a gen tool will create cognitive using a gen tool will create cognitive offloading so for listeners cognitive offloading so for listeners cognitive offloading so for listeners cognitive offloading essentially means you know offloading essentially means you know offloading essentially means you know you're not actively solving some parts you're not actively solving some parts you're not actively solving some parts of the problem um like automating away of the problem um like automating away of the problem um like automating away some of the cognition it can be bad and some of the cognition it can be bad and some of the cognition it can be bad and it can be good right and I think the it can be good right and I think the it can be good right and I think the problem is that the Tool's not going to problem is that the Tool's not going to problem is that the Tool's not going to give us this answer um so I've been give us this answer um so I've been give us this answer um so I've been interested in this and I ran a research interested in this and I ran a research interested in this and I ran a research study we gathered up data from over study we gathered up data from over study we gathered up data from over 2,000 soft developers and um I think 795 2,000 soft developers and um I think 795 2,000 soft developers and um I think 795 engineering managers actually who often

engineering managers actually who often engineering managers actually who often get often get left out of this question get often get left out of this question get often get left out of this question but um huge yeah they are actually but um huge yeah they are actually but um huge yeah they are actually really an interesting group with Gen as really an interesting group with Gen as really an interesting group with Gen as well so I was really interested in us well so I was really interested in us well so I was really interested in us better understanding what I would call better understanding what I would call better understanding what I would call like a rapid technology shift and one like a rapid technology shift and one like a rapid technology shift and one thing that I thought was whether or not thing that I thought was whether or not thing that I thought was whether or not you were using these tools you are still you were using these tools you are still you were using these tools you are still in the middle of this big conversation in the middle of this big conversation in the middle of this big conversation about whether being a software developer about whether being a software developer about whether being a software developer is changing in this moment so you're is changing in this moment so you're is changing in this moment so you're thinking to yourself it does my manager thinking to yourself it does my manager thinking to yourself it does my manager expect me to work differently do my expect me to work differently do my expect me to work differently do my peers expect me to work differently like peers expect me to work differently like peers expect me to work differently like what do they want from me and this is what do they want from me and this is what do they want from me and this is especially true for junior developers so especially true for junior developers so especially true for junior developers so we found a couple things like one thing we found a couple things like one thing we found a couple things like one thing that I think is really important is we that I think is really important is we that I think is really important is we saw a huge number of developers have saw a huge number of developers have saw a huge number of developers have something that I called AI skill threat something that I called AI skill threat something that I called AI skill threat so when they imagine you ask them to so when they imagine you ask them to so when they imagine you ask them to imagine a future of AI coding you know imagine a future of AI coding you know imagine a future of AI coding you know those tools being really pervasively those tools being really pervasively those tools being really pervasively used they tend to agree with things like used they tend to agree with things like used they tend to agree with things like um I'm not going to be able to keep up um I'm not going to be able to keep up um I'm not going to be able to keep up other people aren't going to evaluate me other people aren't going to evaluate me other people aren't going to evaluate me fairly um this is again that fairly um this is again that fairly um this is again that quantification game of psychology right quantification game of psychology right quantification game of psychology right um and we saw I think about between 43% um and we saw I think about between 43% um and we saw I think about between 43% or 45% of developers across this large or 45% of developers across this large or 45% of developers across this large sample of 3,000 people say yes and being sample of 3,000 people say yes and being sample of 3,000 people say yes and being a manager did not fix this so people are a manager did not fix this so people are a manager did not fix this so people are feeling I think threatened in this feeling I think threatened in this feeling I think threatened in this moment now I'm going to give you a moment now I'm going to give you a moment now I'm going to give you a little hope though because we found little hope though because we found little hope though because we found something that really seems to help we something that really seems to help we something that really seems to help we also measured remember I told you about

also measured remember I told you about also measured remember I told you about sense of belonging uh we measured sense of belonging uh we measured sense of belonging uh we measured whether people felt like they were on a whether people felt like they were on a whether people felt like they were on a team that really cared about their sense team that really cared about their sense team that really cared about their sense of belonging they were welcome as a of belonging they were welcome as a of belonging they were welcome as a whole person the team cared about that whole person the team cared about that whole person the team cared about that culture and we measured a second thing culture and we measured a second thing culture and we measured a second thing one of my favorites um whether you felt one of my favorites um whether you felt one of my favorites um whether you felt like your engineering team was really like your engineering team was really like your engineering team was really positioned to learn like they set positioned to learn like they set positioned to learn like they set learning goals together as a team your learning goals together as a team your learning goals together as a team your manager supports your learning you're manager supports your learning you're manager supports your learning you're not hiding it on Fridays or whatever not hiding it on Fridays or whatever not hiding it on Fridays or whatever else is happening when you know to learn else is happening when you know to learn else is happening when you know to learn right sneaking you're learning yeah so right sneaking you're learning yeah so right sneaking you're learning yeah so folks who had access to that culture folks who had access to that culture folks who had access to that culture they were they cut their AI skill threat they were they cut their AI skill threat they were they cut their AI skill threat in half essentially so you were twice as in half essentially so you were twice as in half essentially so you were twice as likely to have ai skill threat if you likely to have ai skill threat if you likely to have ai skill threat if you did not have those cultures around you did not have those cultures around you did not have those cultures around you yeah yeah so I'm interested also I've yeah yeah so I'm interested also I've yeah yeah so I'm interested also I've just I believe this to be intuitive but just I believe this to be intuitive but just I believe this to be intuitive but I don't know it to be true that using I don't know it to be true that using I don't know it to be true that using the Socratic method with an AI can make the Socratic method with an AI can make the Socratic method with an AI can make you a better programmer but Simply you a better programmer but Simply you a better programmer but Simply Having It Make code for you just makes Having It Make code for you just makes Having It Make code for you just makes you an expert beginner yeah I think one you an expert beginner yeah I think one you an expert beginner yeah I think one of the things you're pointing out is of the things you're pointing out is of the things you're pointing out is like who's in the driver's seat you know like who's in the driver's seat you know like who's in the driver's seat you know do you have agency right and I I think do you have agency right and I I think do you have agency right and I I think it's it feels for me as a someone who it's it feels for me as a someone who it's it feels for me as a someone who studies human problem solving right it studies human problem solving right it studies human problem solving right it it feels very different when I imagine it feels very different when I imagine it feels very different when I imagine someone using these tools and being in someone using these tools and being in someone using these tools and being in charge and and using what we call charge and and using what we call charge and and using what we call metacognitive skills so you're thinking metacognitive skills so you're thinking metacognitive skills so you're thinking to yourself am I getting what want is to yourself am I getting what want is to yourself am I getting what want is this right you know yes yes that is so this right you know yes yes that is so this right you know yes yes that is so true true story uh and I'm not an AI bro

true true story uh and I'm not an AI bro true true story uh and I'm not an AI bro by any means but I am recognizing that by any means but I am recognizing that by any means but I am recognizing that if I'm going to talk to myself in the my if I'm going to talk to myself in the my if I'm going to talk to myself in the my my theory is if I'm going to talk to my theory is if I'm going to talk to my theory is if I'm going to talk to myself in the mirror anyway it'd be myself in the mirror anyway it'd be myself in the mirror anyway it'd be helpful if the thing gave me some helpful if the thing gave me some helpful if the thing gave me some information back so my 17-year-old is information back so my 17-year-old is information back so my 17-year-old is taking AP Bio and I needed to taking AP Bio and I needed to taking AP Bio and I needed to effectively page in my AP my AP Bio from effectively page in my AP my AP Bio from effectively page in my AP my AP Bio from 30 years ago so how do I get up to speed 30 years ago so how do I get up to speed 30 years ago so how do I get up to speed to help him so I sat down with a Chad to help him so I sat down with a Chad to help him so I sat down with a Chad GPT and I put it in audio mode I info GPT and I put it in audio mode I info GPT and I put it in audio mode I info dumped my age my context what I knew dumped my age my context what I knew dumped my age my context what I knew what I didn't know I told it everything what I didn't know I told it everything what I didn't know I told it everything I didn't know about biology and I I didn't know about biology and I I didn't know about biology and I basically imagined like a Tetris field basically imagined like a Tetris field basically imagined like a Tetris field with like all of my fragmented knowledge with like all of my fragmented knowledge with like all of my fragmented knowledge and I said help me fill this in and I and I said help me fill this in and I and I said help me fill this in and I spent two hours having it interview and spent two hours having it interview and spent two hours having it interview and quiz me to get me up to speed on biology quiz me to get me up to speed on biology quiz me to get me up to speed on biology rather than thinking about it in terms rather than thinking about it in terms rather than thinking about it in terms of like throwing the questions at it uh of like throwing the questions at it uh of like throwing the questions at it uh and and and kind of the idea of an infinitely kind of the idea of an infinitely kind of the idea of an infinitely patient tutor works for me more than oh patient tutor works for me more than oh patient tutor works for me more than oh yeah generate this sorting algorithm I yeah generate this sorting algorithm I yeah generate this sorting algorithm I mean it works for me too way way before mean it works for me too way way before mean it works for me too way way before I'd ever heard of anything being called I'd ever heard of anything being called I'd ever heard of anything being called AI when I was a postto we were really AI when I was a postto we were really AI when I was a postto we were really interested in the idea of personalized interested in the idea of personalized interested in the idea of personalized tutors like I it's it's always been that tutors like I it's it's always been that tutors like I it's it's always been that that that human ability to dialogue I that that human ability to dialogue I that that human ability to dialogue I love how spatial by the way that love how spatial by the way that love how spatial by the way that metaphor was that you that was like very metaphor was that you that was like very metaphor was that you that was like very insightful and cool thank you yeah insightful and cool thank you yeah insightful and cool thank you yeah that's how brain works I'm afraid yeah I that's how brain works I'm afraid yeah I that's how brain works I'm afraid yeah I love that um it's really cool I and love that um it's really cool I and love that um it's really cool I and there's some great research from back in there's some great research from back in there's some great research from back in the day like classic learning science

the day like classic learning science the day like classic learning science stuff that says you know your brain is stuff that says you know your brain is stuff that says you know your brain is not just a an empty bucket and then you not just a an empty bucket and then you not just a an empty bucket and then you fill it with content and then that's fill it with content and then that's fill it with content and then that's learning and then it's done um actually learning and then it's done um actually learning and then it's done um actually you know retrieving the information that you know retrieving the information that you know retrieving the information that we've learned is complicated there's all we've learned is complicated there's all we've learned is complicated there's all of these interesting kind of really neat of these interesting kind of really neat of these interesting kind of really neat ways that we um can get better at it so ways that we um can get better at it so ways that we um can get better at it so you know one one fun thing is called the you know one one fun thing is called the you know one one fun thing is called the spacing effect like you learn material spacing effect like you learn material spacing effect like you learn material better if you sort of space it out and better if you sort of space it out and better if you sort of space it out and you continually close yourself this back you continually close yourself this back you continually close yourself this back to the small chunks thing right 100% so to the small chunks thing right 100% so to the small chunks thing right 100% so our minds are complicated and I I love our minds are complicated and I I love our minds are complicated and I I love the idea of a future where technology is the idea of a future where technology is the idea of a future where technology is um does cognitive scaffolding maybe more um does cognitive scaffolding maybe more um does cognitive scaffolding maybe more than cognitive offloading and and I love than cognitive offloading and and I love than cognitive offloading and and I love the idea of that future I do worry that the idea of that future I do worry that the idea of that future I do worry that they're not bringing enough learning they're not bringing enough learning they're not bringing enough learning scientists in the room when they tool scientists in the room when they tool scientists in the room when they tool but yeah I'm not a learning scientist but yeah I'm not a learning scientist but yeah I'm not a learning scientist but I respect the work that you all are but I respect the work that you all are but I respect the work that you all are doing very much I met with the school doing very much I met with the school doing very much I met with the school board recently in my local area here and board recently in my local area here and board recently in my local area here and they have no idea how AI works and I they have no idea how AI works and I they have no idea how AI works and I explained to them to use it as an explained to them to use it as an explained to them to use it as an augmentor as like a imagine you all have augmentor as like a imagine you all have augmentor as like a imagine you all have a TA and that's the way you should think a TA and that's the way you should think a TA and that's the way you should think about it rather than kids cheating on about it rather than kids cheating on about it rather than kids cheating on essays uh which is the wrong way to essays uh which is the wrong way to essays uh which is the wrong way to think about it yeah well and I think think about it yeah well and I think think about it yeah well and I think it's important that we in Tech remain it's important that we in Tech remain it's important that we in Tech remain respectful of the work of teachers right respectful of the work of teachers right respectful of the work of teachers right the context like you're clearly very in the context like you're clearly very in the context like you're clearly very in tune with that right tune with that right tune with that right and um and then they kind of come back and um and then they kind of come back and um and then they kind of come back to us and say well you know like design to us and say well you know like design to us and say well you know like design something about this differently like my something about this differently like my something about this differently like my my perspective is you know the answer's

my perspective is you know the answer's my perspective is you know the answer's never going to be in the tool the answer never going to be in the tool the answer never going to be in the tool the answer is in the real world in how people are is in the real world in how people are is in the real world in how people are using the tool and then asking yourself using the tool and then asking yourself using the tool and then asking yourself okay like why are these people thriving okay like why are these people thriving okay like why are these people thriving with this tool and these other people with this tool and these other people with this tool and these other people seem to really be having a bad time seem to really be having a bad time seem to really be having a bad time thank you so much for your time and for thank you so much for your time and for thank you so much for your time and for your insights and for your research and your insights and for your research and your insights and for your research and for spending uh spending your afternoon for spending uh spending your afternoon for spending uh spending your afternoon with me today my pleasure thank you so with me today my pleasure thank you so with me today my pleasure thank you so much for the time we've been chatting much for the time we've been chatting much for the time we've been chatting with Dr Cat Hicks you can check out her with Dr Cat Hicks you can check out her with Dr Cat Hicks you can check out her website at drat hicks.com and the plural website at drat hicks.com and the plural website at drat hicks.com and the plural site developer success lab this has been site developer success lab this has been site developer success lab this has been another episode of Hansel minutes and another episode of Hansel minutes and another episode of Hansel minutes and we'll see you again next week we'll see you again next week we'll see you again next week [Music] [Music] [Music] a a a [Music]