Where is AI taking us? - with The Pragmatic Programmer Gergely Orosz

[music] [music] Hi friends, I'm Scott Hansel and this is Hi friends, I'm Scott Hansel and this is Hi friends, I'm Scott Hansel and this is another episode of Hansel Minutes. Today another episode of Hansel Minutes. Today another episode of Hansel Minutes. Today I have the extreme pleasure of chatting I have the extreme pleasure of chatting I have the extreme pleasure of chatting with Berge Aros, the author of the with Berge Aros, the author of the with Berge Aros, the author of the pragmatic engineer newsletter, number pragmatic engineer newsletter, number pragmatic engineer newsletter, number one technology newsletter on Substack one technology newsletter on Substack one technology newsletter on Substack and just a lovely gentleman. How are and just a lovely gentleman. How are and just a lovely gentleman. How are you, sir? you, sir? you, sir? >> Doing great, Scott. It's It's really >> Doing great, Scott. It's It's really >> Doing great, Scott. It's It's really nice to to be here and catch up this nice to to be here and catch up this nice to to be here and catch up this time over video. Last time it was in time over video. Last time it was in time over video. Last time it was in person. person. person. >> Yeah. Yeah. We hung out in person for a >> Yeah. Yeah. We hung out in person for a >> Yeah. Yeah. We hung out in person for a little while and now we're on we're on little while and now we're on we're on little while and now we're on we're on video. We're on audio on the podcast. video. We're on audio on the podcast. video. We're on audio on the podcast. You've got the Dune ornithopter Lego on You've got the Dune ornithopter Lego on You've got the Dune ornithopter Lego on your credibility bookshelf with uh all your credibility bookshelf with uh all your credibility bookshelf with uh all of the great books. I see code complete of the great books. I see code complete of the great books. I see code complete by Steve Oonnell there in the by Steve Oonnell there in the by Steve Oonnell there in the background. I can immediately say this background. I can immediately say this background. I can immediately say this is a serious person right now. is a serious person right now. is a serious person right now. >> Yeah. And I I had the extreme joy and >> Yeah. And I I had the extreme joy and >> Yeah. And I I had the extreme joy and and privilege to interview Steve and privilege to interview Steve and privilege to interview Steve McConnell. McConnell. McConnell. Did he sign it Did he sign it Did he sign it >> about a year ago? He did sign. >> about a year ago? He did sign. >> about a year ago? He did sign. >> Wait. Yes, he did. >> Wait. Yes, he did. >> Wait. Yes, he did. >> Oh my goodness. >> Oh my goodness. >> Oh my goodness. >> A signed. >> A signed. >> A signed. >> I I have a signed book. I'm showing it >> I I have a signed book. I'm showing it >> I I have a signed book. I'm showing it to the camera. to the camera. to the camera. >> Oh my god. With >> Oh my god. With >> Oh my god. With >> And this was a big deal because Steve >> And this was a big deal because Steve >> And this was a big deal because Steve McConnell, he actually left tech as a McConnell, he actually left tech as a McConnell, he actually left tech as a whole about three years ago. He had an whole about three years ago. He had an whole about three years ago. He had an amazing run and now he's just amazing run and now he's just amazing run and now he's just reinventing himself. But he is just as reinventing himself. But he is just as reinventing himself. But he is just as thoughtful as as ever. And uh the crazy thoughtful as as ever. And uh the crazy thoughtful as as ever. And uh the crazy thing about this book called complete thing about this book called complete thing about this book called complete that was so inspiring for me. Steve that was so inspiring for me. Steve that was so inspiring for me. Steve McConnell wrote this when he had 5 years McConnell wrote this when he had 5 years McConnell wrote this when he had 5 years of experience or so he wrote 900 pages of experience or so he wrote 900 pages of experience or so he wrote 900 pages which has been the Bible for about 20 which has been the Bible for about 20 which has been the Bible for about 20 years for so many people. And one thing years for so many people. And one thing years for so many people. And one thing that reminded me is is you don't need to that reminded me is is you don't need to that reminded me is is you don't need to wait to you know have 20 or 30 or 40 wait to you know have 20 or 30 or 40 wait to you know have 20 or 30 or 40 years experience. Do something that can years experience. Do something that can years experience. Do something that can be industry defining or helping just so

be industry defining or helping just so be industry defining or helping just so many people. You can start when you have many people. You can start when you have many people. You can start when you have one years, two years, three years of one years, two years, three years of one years, two years, three years of experience. You don't need to wait for experience. You don't need to wait for experience. You don't need to wait for longer. You know, that's a really great longer. You know, that's a really great longer. You know, that's a really great thing that you've said because I've thing that you've said because I've thing that you've said because I've always tried to express to people that always tried to express to people that always tried to express to people that I'll read your blog. I don't care how I'll read your blog. I don't care how I'll read your blog. I don't care how many years you've been doing this many years you've been doing this many years you've been doing this because no one has your perspective. No because no one has your perspective. No because no one has your perspective. No one has your like, oh, I don't know. one has your like, oh, I don't know. one has your like, oh, I don't know. Everyone's already written everything Everyone's already written everything Everyone's already written everything there is to write about Python. I don't there is to write about Python. I don't there is to write about Python. I don't know your perspective. I don't know how know your perspective. I don't know how know your perspective. I don't know how you got into it. I think that's great. you got into it. I think that's great. you got into it. I think that's great. That book uh code complete that of That book uh code complete that of That book uh code complete that of course is the new uh version two. That course is the new uh version two. That course is the new uh version two. That book came out in 1993. I started coding book came out in 1993. I started coding book came out in 1993. I started coding for money in '92. So Code Complete was for money in '92. So Code Complete was for money in '92. So Code Complete was literally my entree into software literally my entree into software literally my entree into software engineering. Like I I landed in software engineering. Like I I landed in software engineering. Like I I landed in software around April of 2000, excuse me, April around April of 2000, excuse me, April around April of 2000, excuse me, April of 1992 rather. And then code complete of 1992 rather. And then code complete of 1992 rather. And then code complete like just people don't understand it was like just people don't understand it was like just people don't understand it was the biggest thing. It was a it was a the biggest thing. It was a it was a the biggest thing. It was a it was a word of mouth book. I did not realize word of mouth book. I did not realize word of mouth book. I did not realize that he only had 5 years experience at that he only had 5 years experience at that he only had 5 years experience at the time. the time. the time. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> In fact, fun fact just on like how funny >> In fact, fun fact just on like how funny >> In fact, fun fact just on like how funny things are. He told me and we and I have things are. He told me and we and I have things are. He told me and we and I have a I have a podcast episode on on on my a I have a podcast episode on on on my a I have a podcast episode on on on my podcast with him for where we talk about podcast with him for where we talk about podcast with him for where we talk about an hour and a half about these topics.

an hour and a half about these topics. an hour and a half about these topics. But when he published, apparently the But when he published, apparently the But when he published, apparently the publisher did not expect this book would publisher did not expect this book would publisher did not expect this book would sell. They just wanted a so-called back sell. They just wanted a so-called back sell. They just wanted a so-called back filler in their catalog just to have filler in their catalog just to have filler in their catalog just to have something there. And apparently the something there. And apparently the something there. And apparently the publisher was the most surprised of how publisher was the most surprised of how publisher was the most surprised of how many people started to buy. So again, many people started to buy. So again, many people started to buy. So again, just another thing that even even the just another thing that even even the just another thing that even even the publisher, even the person who read this publisher, even the person who read this publisher, even the person who read this 900 pages did not expect this to be big. 900 pages did not expect this to be big. 900 pages did not expect this to be big. So sometimes you just got to do things So sometimes you just got to do things So sometimes you just got to do things and even if you don't think it's a big and even if you don't think it's a big and even if you don't think it's a big deal. Steve told me that he didn't think deal. Steve told me that he didn't think deal. Steve told me that he didn't think this was that revolutionary. I mean who this was that revolutionary. I mean who this was that revolutionary. I mean who was he? He like everyone probably should was he? He like everyone probably should was he? He like everyone probably should have known this thing. So just one more have known this thing. So just one more have known this thing. So just one more thing just do stuff. Put it out there. thing just do stuff. Put it out there. thing just do stuff. Put it out there. Worst case is you know you might have Worst case is you know you might have Worst case is you know you might have one help one person and even that's an one help one person and even that's an one help one person and even that's an amazing feeling I can tell you. amazing feeling I can tell you. amazing feeling I can tell you. >> You know that's a great that's a great >> You know that's a great that's a great >> You know that's a great that's a great way to start the conversation because way to start the conversation because way to start the conversation because there's this funny there's this lovely there's this funny there's this lovely there's this funny there's this lovely comedian uh that I'm mutuals with on comedian uh that I'm mutuals with on comedian uh that I'm mutuals with on TikTok named Rodney Norman. Rodney TikTok named Rodney Norman. Rodney TikTok named Rodney Norman. Rodney Norman. and he looks like a crazy uh mad Norman. and he looks like a crazy uh mad Norman. and he looks like a crazy uh mad scientist like from Back to the Future scientist like from Back to the Future scientist like from Back to the Future and he's got a wonderful long zezy top and he's got a wonderful long zezy top and he's got a wonderful long zezy top beard and he kind of pops up on your beard and he kind of pops up on your beard and he kind of pops up on your screen and he says, "You know, you can screen and he says, "You know, you can screen and he says, "You know, you can just do stuff. You can just you don't just do stuff. You can just you don't just do stuff. You can just you don't have to ask permission. You just make have to ask permission. You just make have to ask permission. You just make things. Okay, have a great day." And it things. Okay, have a great day." And it things. Okay, have a great day." And it just, you know, you're just doing your just, you know, you're just doing your just, you know, you're just doing your thing and he's just there to tell you thing and he's just there to tell you thing and he's just there to tell you that you can just do stuff. And uh man, that you can just do stuff. And uh man, that you can just do stuff. And uh man, I'm just doing so much stuff right now.

I'm just doing so much stuff right now. I'm just doing so much stuff right now. I have gotten more done since Opus I have gotten more done since Opus I have gotten more done since Opus uh than probably in the previous two uh than probably in the previous two uh than probably in the previous two years. And by doing stuff, I mean years. And by doing stuff, I mean years. And by doing stuff, I mean shipping interesting stuff. I feel like shipping interesting stuff. I feel like shipping interesting stuff. I feel like I got a rocket ship strapped to my back. I got a rocket ship strapped to my back. I got a rocket ship strapped to my back. Are you having as much fun as I am? Are you having as much fun as I am? Are you having as much fun as I am? >> Yeah, I I've been very surprised on on >> Yeah, I I've been very surprised on on >> Yeah, I I've been very surprised on on how just really good these agents have how just really good these agents have how just really good these agents have gotten. And I I'm someone who's gotten. And I I'm someone who's gotten. And I I'm someone who's skeptical with any any any hype, any skeptical with any any any hype, any skeptical with any any any hype, any claim. I've been skeptical about crypto. claim. I've been skeptical about crypto. claim. I've been skeptical about crypto. Not not for the sake of crypto, but just Not not for the sake of crypto, but just Not not for the sake of crypto, but just the hyperbolic claims. I've been the hyperbolic claims. I've been the hyperbolic claims. I've been skeptical about AI skeptical about AI skeptical about AI >> because early on about a year and a half >> because early on about a year and a half >> because early on about a year and a half ago, we had people saying, "Oh, here's ago, we had people saying, "Oh, here's ago, we had people saying, "Oh, here's this AI that's going to replace software this AI that's going to replace software this AI that's going to replace software engineers." And again, it sounded very engineers." And again, it sounded very engineers." And again, it sounded very hyperbolic and also a little bit hyperbolic and also a little bit hyperbolic and also a little bit depressing to be fair. depressing to be fair. depressing to be fair. >> 100% agree. >> 100% agree. >> 100% agree. >> But but then I always like to look at >> But but then I always like to look at >> But but then I always like to look at stuff. I like to try out firsthand what stuff. I like to try out firsthand what stuff. I like to try out firsthand what can it do. And again, it was it was can it do. And again, it was it was can it do. And again, it was it was pretty good. It was decent autocomplete pretty good. It was decent autocomplete pretty good. It was decent autocomplete initially. It then started to do some initially. It then started to do some initially. It then started to do some stuff, but it started it hallucinated stuff, but it started it hallucinated stuff, but it started it hallucinated when I used chat GPT or or I tried to when I used chat GPT or or I tried to when I used chat GPT or or I tried to use it for anything more complex, you use it for anything more complex, you use it for anything more complex, you know, like cursor early on. his know, like cursor early on. his know, like cursor early on. his suggestions were maybe not exactly what suggestions were maybe not exactly what suggestions were maybe not exactly what I was thinking of, but also like over I was thinking of, but also like over I was thinking of, but also like over over the winter break, I I can still over the winter break, I I can still over the winter break, I I can still code pretty well if I put myself to it, code pretty well if I put myself to it, code pretty well if I put myself to it, but I just don't really do it because but I just don't really do it because but I just don't really do it because it's a lot of time to get in the zone.

it's a lot of time to get in the zone. it's a lot of time to get in the zone. My my side projects are are I have a lot My my side projects are are I have a lot My my side projects are are I have a lot of side projects and and also I have of side projects and and also I have of side projects and and also I have some of my my business runs on my own some of my my business runs on my own some of my my business runs on my own APIs. I try to build whenever I can. For APIs. I try to build whenever I can. For APIs. I try to build whenever I can. For example, for a newsletter group example, for a newsletter group example, for a newsletter group subscriptions, there's like a subscriptions, there's like a subscriptions, there's like a self-service API. Companies can sign up self-service API. Companies can sign up self-service API. Companies can sign up and their whole domain can go on there and their whole domain can go on there and their whole domain can go on there and they get reporting and all that and they get reporting and all that and they get reporting and all that stuff. I I built that on a text stack stuff. I I built that on a text stack stuff. I I built that on a text stack that I wasn't that familiar at the time. that I wasn't that familiar at the time. that I wasn't that familiar at the time. I wanted to play with Express.js and I wanted to play with Express.js and I wanted to play with Express.js and NodeJS and TypeScript. And every time I NodeJS and TypeScript. And every time I NodeJS and TypeScript. And every time I go back to it, but it always took me go back to it, but it always took me go back to it, but it always took me about 30 minutes to like get back, you about 30 minutes to like get back, you about 30 minutes to like get back, you know, remember the structure. Thank god know, remember the structure. Thank god know, remember the structure. Thank god I have tests, so whenever I make a I have tests, so whenever I make a I have tests, so whenever I make a change, I I can actually tell if I broke change, I I can actually tell if I broke change, I I can actually tell if I broke something. And this winter break, I just something. And this winter break, I just something. And this winter break, I just went there again. like I have so many went there again. like I have so many went there again. like I have so many ideas and you know like this time I ideas and you know like this time I ideas and you know like this time I heard cloud code is great. So I just heard cloud code is great. So I just heard cloud code is great. So I just told cloud code like you know build this told cloud code like you know build this told cloud code like you know build this endpoint and and build me this this endpoint and and build me this this endpoint and and build me this this feature and it did it and then I looked feature and it did it and then I looked feature and it did it and then I looked at it and I said run the test and it did at it and I said run the test and it did at it and I said run the test and it did and the test and then I looked at it and and the test and then I looked at it and and the test and then I looked at it and like one of the tests was not great so I like one of the tests was not great so I like one of the tests was not great so I I had to fix it but then it did it and I I had to fix it but then it did it and I I had to fix it but then it did it and I found myself that I had spent about 5 found myself that I had spent about 5 found myself that I had spent about 5 minutes on this thing and it's already minutes on this thing and it's already minutes on this thing and it's already added a thing that I thought would take added a thing that I thought would take added a thing that I thought would take me 2 hours 30 minutes to get in the zone me 2 hours 30 minutes to get in the zone me 2 hours 30 minutes to get in the zone an hour to be in there and then my wife an hour to be in there and then my wife an hour to be in there and then my wife said like hey how long are you going to said like hey how long are you going to said like hey how long are you going to be? Uh, and usually whenever I'm coding be? Uh, and usually whenever I'm coding be? Uh, and usually whenever I'm coding or writing for that, like being in the or writing for that, like being in the or writing for that, like being in the zone, my time estimate is terribly off zone, my time estimate is terribly off zone, my time estimate is terribly off and this is a lot of source of and this is a lot of source of and this is a lot of source of [laughter] conflict. But with this one, [laughter] conflict. But with this one, [laughter] conflict. But with this one, I was like, uh, just just one more I was like, uh, just just one more I was like, uh, just just one more minute. And I literally just put another minute. And I literally just put another minute. And I literally just put another prompt and then I stood up and I went prompt and then I stood up and I went prompt and then I stood up and I went for dinner and I was like, oh, what for dinner and I was like, oh, what for dinner and I was like, oh, what happened? Like, you're early. Like, were happened? Like, you're early. Like, were happened? Like, you're early. Like, were you not working? I'm like, I was you not working? I'm like, I was you not working? I'm like, I was working, but I'm using this thing, this working, but I'm using this thing, this working, but I'm using this thing, this agent. And it's just I'm just having

agent. And it's just I'm just having agent. And it's just I'm just having this wow moment again and again and this wow moment again and again and this wow moment again and again and again. Uh, another story was where again again. Uh, another story was where again again. Uh, another story was where again I had this like massive wow moment on my I had this like massive wow moment on my I had this like massive wow moment on my website. I have testimonials of like, website. I have testimonials of like, website. I have testimonials of like, you know, people saying nice things you know, people saying nice things you know, people saying nice things about the newsletter or or or podcast on about the newsletter or or or podcast on about the newsletter or or or podcast on Twitter, real people. And I I paid about Twitter, real people. And I I paid about Twitter, real people. And I I paid about $100 a month for this software as a $100 a month for this software as a $100 a month for this software as a service where I can just they have a service where I can just they have a service where I can just they have a nice or not a nice a very simple admin nice or not a nice a very simple admin nice or not a nice a very simple admin interface where I can post a Twitter interface where I can post a Twitter interface where I can post a Twitter link. It generates a kind of UI and I link. It generates a kind of UI and I link. It generates a kind of UI and I can embed it with an iframe and I pay can embed it with an iframe and I pay can embed it with an iframe and I pay for the service. And I got a bit pissed for the service. And I got a bit pissed for the service. And I got a bit pissed because I didn't get an invoice from because I didn't get an invoice from because I didn't get an invoice from them. Turns out this service has been them. Turns out this service has been them. Turns out this service has been like sold twice over. Their invoice like sold twice over. Their invoice like sold twice over. Their invoice system is a mess. I have a new invoice system is a mess. I have a new invoice system is a mess. I have a new invoice coming up. I don't know how much I'm coming up. I don't know how much I'm coming up. I don't know how much I'm going to pay. And I was thinking to going to pay. And I was thinking to going to pay. And I was thinking to myself like hang on like can I not have myself like hang on like can I not have myself like hang on like can I not have an agent an agent an agent replace this cuz I know I like I'm replace this cuz I know I like I'm replace this cuz I know I like I'm paying of I just don't want to maintain paying of I just don't want to maintain paying of I just don't want to maintain an HTML file that has all these nicely an HTML file that has all these nicely an HTML file that has all these nicely formatted things. So I told the agent, formatted things. So I told the agent, formatted things. So I told the agent, hey go there, collect all these hey go there, collect all these hey go there, collect all these testimonials, put it in a structure that testimonials, put it in a structure that testimonials, put it in a structure that is easy to maintain because I'm thinking is easy to maintain because I'm thinking is easy to maintain because I'm thinking about that already. put it in a JSON about that already. put it in a JSON about that already. put it in a JSON format and you know like like put it format and you know like like put it format and you know like like put it separately and in build time generate separately and in build time generate separately and in build time generate this HTML and then show me the results this HTML and then show me the results this HTML and then show me the results and in about I I actually measured it and in about I I actually measured it and in about I I actually measured it end to end 20 minutes I went from I have end to end 20 minutes I went from I have end to end 20 minutes I went from I have the third party that I'm depending on to the third party that I'm depending on to the third party that I'm depending on to I have no third party the build is I have no third party the build is I have no third party the build is passing it's now pushed out to passing it's now pushed out to passing it's now pushed out to production and I did two tweaks to it production and I did two tweaks to it production and I did two tweaks to it and I'm done and I'm done and I'm done >> and to me this is mind-blowing like the >> and to me this is mind-blowing like the >> and to me this is mind-blowing like the implications so like until now again as implications so like until now again as implications so like until now again as a software professional as someone who a software professional as someone who a software professional as someone who knows how to code knows how to deploy knows how to code knows how to deploy knows how to code knows how to deploy Okay, I was willing to pay like my time

Okay, I was willing to pay like my time Okay, I was willing to pay like my time is pretty valuable. I kind of like value is pretty valuable. I kind of like value is pretty valuable. I kind of like value my time roughly as like I don't know my time roughly as like I don't know my time roughly as like I don't know something like $300 an hour or $200 an something like $300 an hour or $200 an something like $300 an hour or $200 an hour when I work for kind of myself hour when I work for kind of myself hour when I work for kind of myself because I want to put a value on the because I want to put a value on the because I want to put a value on the time. So for me, if it takes an hour, time. So for me, if it takes an hour, time. So for me, if it takes an hour, it's worth paying for me $100 a month. it's worth paying for me $100 a month. it's worth paying for me $100 a month. And you know, you can agree or disagree And you know, you can agree or disagree And you know, you can agree or disagree with this, but now it took me 20 minutes with this, but now it took me 20 minutes with this, but now it took me 20 minutes to replace it for good. to replace it for good. to replace it for good. >> Why would I pay $100? So yeah, uh just >> Why would I pay $100? So yeah, uh just >> Why would I pay $100? So yeah, uh just like you, I've been mind-blown with how like you, I've been mind-blown with how like you, I've been mind-blown with how many things I can do, not to mention many things I can do, not to mention many things I can do, not to mention like personal expenses. some of these like personal expenses. some of these like personal expenses. some of these things. It's just opening a whole new things. It's just opening a whole new things. It's just opening a whole new world and it's not just me or you. I'm world and it's not just me or you. I'm world and it's not just me or you. I'm talking to a lot of people uh folks talking to a lot of people uh folks talking to a lot of people uh folks working at startups uh at as engineers working at startups uh at as engineers working at startups uh at as engineers and everyone's having this like this and everyone's having this like this and everyone's having this like this winter break was the weirdest winter winter break was the weirdest winter winter break was the weirdest winter break. People are coming back and saying break. People are coming back and saying break. People are coming back and saying damn like so many things work and damn like so many things work and damn like so many things work and everyone's changing like how they work everyone's changing like how they work everyone's changing like how they work experimenting and just getting a lot experimenting and just getting a lot experimenting and just getting a lot more stuff done. more stuff done. more stuff done. >> Yeah. I I'll give you two quick stories. >> Yeah. I I'll give you two quick stories. >> Yeah. I I'll give you two quick stories. So the back end for Hansel minutes which So the back end for Hansel minutes which So the back end for Hansel minutes which has been this way for probably 15 years has been this way for probably 15 years has been this way for probably 15 years maybe longer the the podcast is over 20 maybe longer the the podcast is over 20 maybe longer the the podcast is over 20 years old is JavaScript files in Azure years old is JavaScript files in Azure years old is JavaScript files in Azure storage storage storage >> and uh once a week I would take 10 or 15 >> and uh once a week I would take 10 or 15 >> and uh once a week I would take 10 or 15 minutes I'd open it in Visual Studio minutes I'd open it in Visual Studio minutes I'd open it in Visual Studio Code I'd edit the JavaScript files which Code I'd edit the JavaScript files which Code I'd edit the JavaScript files which would express a new show has come out would express a new show has come out would express a new show has come out and then there's a linkage to some and then there's a linkage to some and then there's a linkage to some advertising and every single week I was advertising and every single week I was advertising and every single week I was like one of these days I'm going to take like one of these days I'm going to take like one of these days I'm going to take a weekend I'm going to write an admin.

a weekend I'm going to write an admin. a weekend I'm going to write an admin. I wrote an admin. It I used GitHub I wrote an admin. It I used GitHub I wrote an admin. It I used GitHub Copilot CLI. I used Opus45. It was 42 Copilot CLI. I used Opus45. It was 42 Copilot CLI. I used Opus45. It was 42 minutes. It took longer to figure out minutes. It took longer to figure out minutes. It took longer to figure out how to deploy it to the cloud than it how to deploy it to the cloud than it how to deploy it to the cloud than it did to write the thing. And I think the did to write the thing. And I think the did to write the thing. And I think the that's that's idea number thing number that's that's idea number thing number that's that's idea number thing number one. And then a couple weeks ago, uh I one. And then a couple weeks ago, uh I one. And then a couple weeks ago, uh I use a a blood sugar management system use a a blood sugar management system use a a blood sugar management system called Night Scout, which is an open called Night Scout, which is an open called Night Scout, which is an open source software. And I have a REST API, source software. And I have a REST API, source software. And I have a REST API, which is my blood sugar. So, when I'm which is my blood sugar. So, when I'm which is my blood sugar. So, when I'm overseas or I'm traveling, my wife can overseas or I'm traveling, my wife can overseas or I'm traveling, my wife can see my blood sugar on like screens see my blood sugar on like screens see my blood sugar on like screens around the house around the house around the house >> and things like [clears throat] that and >> and things like [clears throat] that and >> and things like [clears throat] that and there's a notification if my blood sugar there's a notification if my blood sugar there's a notification if my blood sugar goes high or goes low. goes high or goes low. goes high or goes low. >> It's um it's very specific. It's very >> It's um it's very specific. It's very >> It's um it's very specific. It's very grounded and it's a number. I don't want grounded and it's a number. I don't want grounded and it's a number. I don't want to hallucinate that. Um but I now want to hallucinate that. Um but I now want to hallucinate that. Um but I now want to have joins with other data like how to have joins with other data like how to have joins with other data like how does my blood sugar interact when I does my blood sugar interact when I does my blood sugar interact when I walk, when I travel, when I eat certain walk, when I travel, when I eat certain walk, when I travel, when I eat certain foods, when I'm in certain meetings. So foods, when I'm in certain meetings. So foods, when I'm in certain meetings. So now there's ambiguity. now there's ambiguity. now there's ambiguity. The agent loop, the agentic loop is an The agent loop, the agentic loop is an The agent loop, the agentic loop is an ambiguity loop. And that ambiguity loop ambiguity loop. And that ambiguity loop ambiguity loop. And that ambiguity loop then now allows me to join two things.

then now allows me to join two things. then now allows me to join two things. So I used two pieces of data. One my So I used two pieces of data. One my So I used two pieces of data. One my blood sugar system and the other one is blood sugar system and the other one is blood sugar system and the other one is a thing called work IQ which is a thing called work IQ which is a thing called work IQ which is effectively like talking to the effectively like talking to the effectively like talking to the Microsoft graph. So it's like you know Microsoft graph. So it's like you know Microsoft graph. So it's like you know using Google calendar API and I just using Google calendar API and I just using Google calendar API and I just said are any meetings correlating with said are any meetings correlating with said are any meetings correlating with my blood sugar? my blood sugar? my blood sugar? >> Like I would never write that app. That >> Like I would never write that app. That >> Like I would never write that app. That would be ridiculous. Would take not why would be ridiculous. Would take not why would be ridiculous. Would take not why would you? No. Right. But now suddenly would you? No. Right. But now suddenly would you? No. Right. But now suddenly the Lego pieces, we've got OOTH, we've the Lego pieces, we've got OOTH, we've the Lego pieces, we've got OOTH, we've got personal access tokens, we've got got personal access tokens, we've got got personal access tokens, we've got nice clean REST APIs, a pattern to do nice clean REST APIs, a pattern to do nice clean REST APIs, a pattern to do it. We've got Python andNET and uh it. We've got Python andNET and uh it. We've got Python andNET and uh JavaScript, all very well understood to JavaScript, all very well understood to JavaScript, all very well understood to go and do these things. And I just said, go and do these things. And I just said, go and do these things. And I just said, go and tell me if any meetings are go and tell me if any meetings are go and tell me if any meetings are stressing me out. And it turns out that stressing me out. And it turns out that stressing me out. And it turns out that I'm going low blood sugar on Mondays I'm going low blood sugar on Mondays I'm going low blood sugar on Mondays because I don't eat lunch on Mondays. I because I don't eat lunch on Mondays. I because I don't eat lunch on Mondays. I never put it together until I combined never put it together until I combined never put it together until I combined effectively a join across Outlook effectively a join across Outlook effectively a join across Outlook calendar and my blood sugar and it it calendar and my blood sugar and it it calendar and my blood sugar and it it took 20 minutes and then I wrote a whole took 20 minutes and then I wrote a whole took 20 minutes and then I wrote a whole um a report and then I said make it a um a report and then I said make it a um a report and then I said make it a scale and put it in GitHub and now other scale and put it in GitHub and now other scale and put it in GitHub and now other people are using it. That's insane.

people are using it. That's insane. people are using it. That's insane. >> Yeah. And I I was always skeptical when >> Yeah. And I I was always skeptical when >> Yeah. And I I was always skeptical when I heard the return of personal software I heard the return of personal software I heard the return of personal software cuz I've been hearing for 10 plus years cuz I've been hearing for 10 plus years cuz I've been hearing for 10 plus years the person the person the person but I was I was skeptical just but I was I was skeptical just but I was I was skeptical just personally because I I personally did personally because I I personally did personally because I I personally did not see it and again you might have seen not see it and again you might have seen not see it and again you might have seen more than I have but I'm starting to more than I have but I'm starting to more than I have but I'm starting to become a believer in the sense that I I become a believer in the sense that I I become a believer in the sense that I I mean what you told me and also what I'm mean what you told me and also what I'm mean what you told me and also what I'm doing it's kind of personal software doing it's kind of personal software doing it's kind of personal software software that I wanted for myself or for software that I wanted for myself or for software that I wanted for myself or for a very small business and for example a very small business and for example a very small business and for example for my own business the pragmatic for my own business the pragmatic for my own business the pragmatic engineer uh it would not make sense it engineer uh it would not make sense it engineer uh it would not make sense it would have never made sense to hire would have never made sense to hire would have never made sense to hire anyone. So, I was buying SAS services anyone. So, I was buying SAS services anyone. So, I was buying SAS services even though I'm a software engineer. And even though I'm a software engineer. And even though I'm a software engineer. And now with AI, I'm again I I I would have now with AI, I'm again I I I would have now with AI, I'm again I I I would have not hired anyone at all. It just would not hired anyone at all. It just would not hired anyone at all. It just would have not been built. And now I'm have not been built. And now I'm have not been built. And now I'm building stuff. And also often times, as building stuff. And also often times, as building stuff. And also often times, as you say, you're building stuff that just you say, you're building stuff that just you say, you're building stuff that just would have not made sense at all to would have not made sense at all to would have not made sense at all to build. build. build. >> This is a great point. I'm not going to >> This is a great point. I'm not going to >> This is a great point. I'm not going to buy a backend for my bespoke podcast buy a backend for my bespoke podcast buy a backend for my bespoke podcast anymore than you're going to buy, you anymore than you're going to buy, you anymore than you're going to buy, you know, well, you did pay for this this know, well, you did pay for this this know, well, you did pay for this this embedded thing, but now you're probably embedded thing, but now you're probably embedded thing, but now you're probably wondering, why is that a business? And wondering, why is that a business? And wondering, why is that a business? And now the question is should you spin off now the question is should you spin off now the question is should you spin off the thing you wrote as its own business?

the thing you wrote as its own business? the thing you wrote as its own business? This is the other thing I'm watching This is the other thing I'm watching This is the other thing I'm watching people do. Spin off 30 40 little tiny people do. Spin off 30 40 little tiny people do. Spin off 30 40 little tiny micro SASes for other people. micro SASes for other people. micro SASes for other people. >> Yeah, that's a good question. What will >> Yeah, that's a good question. What will >> Yeah, that's a good question. What will happen with microsass? But when you said happen with microsass? But when you said happen with microsass? But when you said your open sourcing thing, one thing that your open sourcing thing, one thing that your open sourcing thing, one thing that I'm also hearing my my brother startup, I'm also hearing my my brother startup, I'm also hearing my my brother startup, they just open sourced kind of a visual they just open sourced kind of a visual they just open sourced kind of a visual representation of of cloud code that representation of of cloud code that representation of of cloud code that they built for themselves and other they built for themselves and other they built for themselves and other people can use it. and he's seeing a lot people can use it. and he's seeing a lot people can use it. and he's seeing a lot of remixing going in open source where of remixing going in open source where of remixing going in open source where for example in that open source project for example in that open source project for example in that open source project uh he does not want to merge other uh he does not want to merge other uh he does not want to merge other people's pull requests because he wants people's pull requests because he wants people's pull requests because he wants to keep the direction like he he wants to keep the direction like he he wants to keep the direction like he he wants to keep it consistent. So he he looks at to keep it consistent. So he he looks at to keep it consistent. So he he looks at the whatever comes in a poll request and the whatever comes in a poll request and the whatever comes in a poll request and he looks at the idea and if he likes it he looks at the idea and if he likes it he looks at the idea and if he likes it he will then uh use the agent to he will then uh use the agent to he will then uh use the agent to actually build it the way he thinks it actually build it the way he thinks it actually build it the way he thinks it should be done. So strong control, but should be done. So strong control, but should be done. So strong control, but what he's seeing here is a lot of people what he's seeing here is a lot of people what he's seeing here is a lot of people are forking off their open source are forking off their open source are forking off their open source project and remixing it because with an project and remixing it because with an project and remixing it because with an agent again you can you can tell an agent again you can you can tell an agent again you can you can tell an agent like hey generate a pull request agent like hey generate a pull request agent like hey generate a pull request and hope someone merges it or you can and hope someone merges it or you can and hope someone merges it or you can just say like hey make this change in just say like hey make this change in just say like hey make this change in the software in this fork especially the software in this fork especially the software in this fork especially when it's open source and a lot of when it's open source and a lot of when it's open source and a lot of people are putting it on on GitHub as people are putting it on on GitHub as people are putting it on on GitHub as open source because again it's easy open open source because again it's easy open open source because again it's easy open source projects are are I think free or source projects are are I think free or source projects are are I think free or maybe it's free otherwise but we might maybe it's free otherwise but we might maybe it's free otherwise but we might see an explosion in open source because see an explosion in open source because see an explosion in open source because of this remixing nature. It's It's very of this remixing nature. It's It's very of this remixing nature. It's It's very >> This is the thing though. We're hearing >> This is the thing though. We're hearing >> This is the thing though. We're hearing this term slop and AI slop. And some this term slop and AI slop. And some this term slop and AI slop. And some people are saying, "Well, this is just people are saying, "Well, this is just people are saying, "Well, this is just slop." But if it works well and it's slop." But if it works well and it's slop." But if it works well and it's personal and it's only on your machine personal and it's only on your machine personal and it's only on your machine and it does the thing you want it to do, and it does the thing you want it to do, and it does the thing you want it to do, maybe it's not slop at all. Uh, two

maybe it's not slop at all. Uh, two maybe it's not slop at all. Uh, two things that I remixed recently. The Mac things that I remixed recently. The Mac things that I remixed recently. The Mac has that ring light that is a feature. I has that ring light that is a feature. I has that ring light that is a feature. I made a ring Windows ring light. Had a made a ring Windows ring light. Had a made a ring Windows ring light. Had a lot of fun with it. So, it's basically lot of fun with it. So, it's basically lot of fun with it. So, it's basically an artificial drawn ring light. And then an artificial drawn ring light. And then an artificial drawn ring light. And then just literally two days ago on on Hacker just literally two days ago on on Hacker just literally two days ago on on Hacker News, I saw the most clever thing called News, I saw the most clever thing called News, I saw the most clever thing called posture for Mac where if you slouch, it posture for Mac where if you slouch, it posture for Mac where if you slouch, it detects that you slouched and it blurs detects that you slouched and it blurs detects that you slouched and it blurs your screen. So then it causes you to your screen. So then it causes you to your screen. So then it causes you to have to sit up straight in order to, you have to sit up straight in order to, you have to sit up straight in order to, you know, make your screen uh clear again. know, make your screen uh clear again. know, make your screen uh clear again. So I told Copilot CLI to go and make me So I told Copilot CLI to go and make me So I told Copilot CLI to go and make me a Windows version. So now I have a an a Windows version. So now I have a an a Windows version. So now I have a an application that literally dims the application that literally dims the application that literally dims the screen if my posture is bad to force me screen if my posture is bad to force me screen if my posture is bad to force me to like think about it. That's just to like think about it. That's just to like think about it. That's just silly personal software. And now we've silly personal software. And now we've silly personal software. And now we've got Claudebot. Um I just spun up in uh got Claudebot. Um I just spun up in uh got Claudebot. Um I just spun up in uh WSL, Windows Subsystem for Linux, and WSL, Windows Subsystem for Linux, and WSL, Windows Subsystem for Linux, and I'm debating if I should run it in my I'm debating if I should run it in my I'm debating if I should run it in my Synology, which would be my my NAS, my Synology, which would be my my NAS, my Synology, which would be my my NAS, my network access. So like, network access. So like, network access. So like, >> why shouldn't I have a little server in >> why shouldn't I have a little server in >> why shouldn't I have a little server in my own house doing my own thing? Plus my own house doing my own thing? Plus my own house doing my own thing? Plus something like Home Assistant. I'm something like Home Assistant. I'm something like Home Assistant. I'm curious. Are you a home assistant? uh curious. Are you a home assistant? uh curious. Are you a home assistant? uh person person person >> not as much. I use it a little bit, but >> not as much. I use it a little bit, but >> not as much. I use it a little bit, but I' I've just not I I think I don't have I' I've just not I I think I don't have I' I've just not I I think I don't have the integrations for it, but I I could the integrations for it, but I I could the integrations for it, but I I could see myself using it. But I I totally see myself using it. But I I totally see myself using it. But I I totally agree with you like the the idea of like agree with you like the the idea of like agree with you like the the idea of like you know personal assistant like I feel you know personal assistant like I feel you know personal assistant like I feel we're back into the the good old days of we're back into the the good old days of we're back into the the good old days of when PCs were starting to become when PCs were starting to become when PCs were starting to become mainstream where like you we just had mainstream where like you we just had mainstream where like you we just had like you know home homemade software like you know home homemade software like you know home homemade software like it was distributed on the internet like it was distributed on the internet like it was distributed on the internet and and you know you controlled your own and and you know you controlled your own and and you know you controlled your own hardware and and you had your own hardware and and you had your own hardware and and you had your own software like again for a personal

software like again for a personal software like again for a personal assistant why why could I not have it assistant why why could I not have it assistant why why could I not have it run on my stuff and and me choosing my run on my stuff and and me choosing my run on my stuff and and me choosing my subscriptions and me choosing what it subscriptions and me choosing what it subscriptions and me choosing what it has access to like I it feels like the has access to like I it feels like the has access to like I it feels like the hacker mentality is back like you know hacker mentality is back like you know hacker mentality is back like you know there was a time for hackers in the '9s there was a time for hackers in the '9s there was a time for hackers in the '9s and pop fiction everywhere, but it was and pop fiction everywhere, but it was and pop fiction everywhere, but it was happening. I remember and then it kind happening. I remember and then it kind happening. I remember and then it kind of went away the last like few years, of went away the last like few years, of went away the last like few years, decades. decades. decades. >> Yeah. I feel like there's a other than >> Yeah. I feel like there's a other than >> Yeah. I feel like there's a other than the part where the LLM runs in the the part where the LLM runs in the the part where the LLM runs in the cloud, a lot of this stuff can be done cloud, a lot of this stuff can be done cloud, a lot of this stuff can be done internally and I always try to think internally and I always try to think internally and I always try to think about uh would my software work in about uh would my software work in about uh would my software work in airplane mode, airplane mode, airplane mode, >> right? I just feel like that's important >> right? I just feel like that's important >> right? I just feel like that's important and my house needs to work in airplane and my house needs to work in airplane and my house needs to work in airplane mode. And also don't forget like I mode. And also don't forget like I mode. And also don't forget like I personally think it's just a matter of personally think it's just a matter of personally think it's just a matter of time, a matter of years where LLM will time, a matter of years where LLM will time, a matter of years where LLM will run on your machine. I mean there's a run on your machine. I mean there's a run on your machine. I mean there's a lot of lot of lot of >> a lot of work being done. I know the >> a lot of work being done. I know the >> a lot of work being done. I know the Windows 11 team is is doing a bunch of Windows 11 team is is doing a bunch of Windows 11 team is is doing a bunch of stuff around stuff around stuff around >> infrastructure pieces to make that one >> infrastructure pieces to make that one >> infrastructure pieces to make that one day happen. LMS are getting smaller and day happen. LMS are getting smaller and day happen. LMS are getting smaller and and actually some of them run on your and actually some of them run on your and actually some of them run on your laptop. They're just not nearly as good laptop. They're just not nearly as good laptop. They're just not nearly as good as state-of-the-art. But again, as state-of-the-art. But again, as state-of-the-art. But again, >> I I I'm hoping this will be the case >> I I I'm hoping this will be the case >> I I I'm hoping this will be the case because I because I because I >> 100% agree. I've got um you know, LM >> 100% agree. I've got um you know, LM >> 100% agree. I've got um you know, LM Studio is a fantastic. Everyone talks Studio is a fantastic. Everyone talks Studio is a fantastic. Everyone talks about Olama, but they're sleeping on LM about Olama, but they're sleeping on LM about Olama, but they're sleeping on LM Studio. LM Studio.AI. Um, running that, Studio. LM Studio.AI. Um, running that, Studio. LM Studio.AI. Um, running that, it then presents an OpenAI endpoint uh it then presents an OpenAI endpoint uh it then presents an OpenAI endpoint uh that's available inside your house.

that's available inside your house. that's available inside your house. Totally works locally. If you do that Totally works locally. If you do that Totally works locally. If you do that plus like a GPT 20 billion OSS, you've plus like a GPT 20 billion OSS, you've plus like a GPT 20 billion OSS, you've got a perfectly good model that will run got a perfectly good model that will run got a perfectly good model that will run inside your house. It makes me wonder, inside your house. It makes me wonder, inside your house. It makes me wonder, will it run on your laptop? Will it run will it run on your laptop? Will it run will it run on your laptop? Will it run on your desktop? Or again, I bring up on your desktop? Or again, I bring up on your desktop? Or again, I bring up this idea of the NAS. If you remember this idea of the NAS. If you remember this idea of the NAS. If you remember things like Windows Home Server, the things like Windows Home Server, the things like Windows Home Server, the Synologies, True Naz, Freenaz, Synologies, True Naz, Freenaz, Synologies, True Naz, Freenaz, >> why wouldn't I have a tiny machine that >> why wouldn't I have a tiny machine that >> why wouldn't I have a tiny machine that would sit in a closet that would provide would sit in a closet that would provide would sit in a closet that would provide a totally private LLM for the family? a totally private LLM for the family? a totally private LLM for the family? >> 100% agree. I I have NAS is running >> 100% agree. I I have NAS is running >> 100% agree. I I have NAS is running backing on my Dropbox already and it's backing on my Dropbox already and it's backing on my Dropbox already and it's it's already on. I wouldn't mind like, it's already on. I wouldn't mind like, it's already on. I wouldn't mind like, you know, doing a little inference when you know, doing a little inference when you know, doing a little inference when we need it. we need it. we need it. >> Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if you can see >> Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if you can see >> Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if you can see over here. People who are listening over here. People who are listening over here. People who are listening won't be able to see it, but this is a won't be able to see it, but this is a won't be able to see it, but this is a reachi mini robot that is um a uh from reachi mini robot that is um a uh from reachi mini robot that is um a uh from Hugging Face. And this is a little robot Hugging Face. And this is a little robot Hugging Face. And this is a little robot that you buy from Hugging Face and then that you buy from Hugging Face and then that you buy from Hugging Face and then you can deploy. It's got a Raspberry Pi you can deploy. It's got a Raspberry Pi you can deploy. It's got a Raspberry Pi in it and then you can have it do stuff. in it and then you can have it do stuff. in it and then you can have it do stuff. Um it took me about 15 minutes to create Um it took me about 15 minutes to create Um it took me about 15 minutes to create a skill. So when when uh Copilot CLI is a skill. So when when uh Copilot CLI is a skill. So when when uh Copilot CLI is done with something, he'll celebrate.

done with something, he'll celebrate. done with something, he'll celebrate. Um, like it's it's so much more Um, like it's it's so much more Um, like it's it's so much more interesting and personal to hack and interesting and personal to hack and interesting and personal to hack and build your own robot than to like yap at build your own robot than to like yap at build your own robot than to like yap at Alexa who's just going to remind you Alexa who's just going to remind you Alexa who's just going to remind you that like to buy more crap. that like to buy more crap. that like to buy more crap. >> Like I built that guy and he can talk to >> Like I built that guy and he can talk to >> Like I built that guy and he can talk to me and he'll order food and he'll put me and he'll order food and he'll put me and he'll order food and he'll put things on my grocery list and he'll things on my grocery list and he'll things on my grocery list and he'll dance when my when my uh my build is dance when my when my uh my build is dance when my when my uh my build is done. I that's you know make the web done. I that's you know make the web done. I that's you know make the web weird again is kind of where where I'm weird again is kind of where where I'm weird again is kind of where where I'm at. at. at. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yeah. So, have you looked at Claudebot? >> Yeah. So, have you looked at Claudebot? >> Yeah. So, have you looked at Claudebot? Have you been spending time with that? Have you been spending time with that? Have you been spending time with that? Because there's a lot of controversy Because there's a lot of controversy Because there's a lot of controversy about the security aspect of it and I about the security aspect of it and I about the security aspect of it and I think people should just relax a little think people should just relax a little think people should just relax a little bit because everything starts insecure bit because everything starts insecure bit because everything starts insecure to start with. to start with. to start with. >> So, interesting you would say because I >> So, interesting you would say because I >> So, interesting you would say because I I I talked with Peter Stainberger. I met I I talked with Peter Stainberger. I met I I talked with Peter Stainberger. I met him in London two weeks ago and I have a him in London two weeks ago and I have a him in London two weeks ago and I have a podcast episode coming out. Okay. It podcast episode coming out. Okay. It podcast episode coming out. Okay. It will have been out by by the time uh we will have been out by by the time uh we will have been out by by the time uh we we talked. So, I knew a little bit of we talked. So, I knew a little bit of we talked. So, I knew a little bit of CloudB before, but he showed me on his CloudB before, but he showed me on his CloudB before, but he showed me on his phone and he showed me what he had it phone and he showed me what he had it phone and he showed me what he had it had it hooked up and it was wild. Like had it hooked up and it was wild. Like had it hooked up and it was wild. Like again, he gave it full access to all again, he gave it full access to all again, he gave it full access to all these things, you know. He he is living these things, you know. He he is living these things, you know. He he is living on the edge and he's very clear by the on the edge and he's very clear by the on the edge and he's very clear by the way that you should probably not do way that you should probably not do way that you should probably not do this. He is yoloing it. I mean, he's not this. He is yoloing it. I mean, he's not this. He is yoloing it. I mean, he's not giving access to the bank account, some giving access to the bank account, some giving access to the bank account, some some other things, but he's giving way some other things, but he's giving way some other things, but he's giving way wider access than I would be comfortable wider access than I would be comfortable wider access than I would be comfortable with. But then he showed me how he uses with. But then he showed me how he uses with. But then he showed me how he uses it dayto-day. U he showed it. He kind of it dayto-day. U he showed it. He kind of it dayto-day. U he showed it. He kind of de he wasn't demoing. He was just like de he wasn't demoing. He was just like de he wasn't demoing. He was just like using it. And after 5 minutes, my using it. And after 5 minutes, my using it. And after 5 minutes, my thinking was like, "Oh my gosh, this is thinking was like, "Oh my gosh, this is thinking was like, "Oh my gosh, this is what Siri would be like in 10 years, but what Siri would be like in 10 years, but what Siri would be like in 10 years, but he has it working here." I mean, it's

he has it working here." I mean, it's he has it working here." I mean, it's got a lot of shortcuts. Clearly, like a got a lot of shortcuts. Clearly, like a got a lot of shortcuts. Clearly, like a lot of things that that you you need. lot of things that that you you need. lot of things that that you you need. >> What's an example of something that blew >> What's an example of something that blew >> What's an example of something that blew your mind? Cuz I use Siri, and I I want your mind? Cuz I use Siri, and I I want your mind? Cuz I use Siri, and I I want to preface this by saying I'll use Siri to preface this by saying I'll use Siri to preface this by saying I'll use Siri very often for things like uh geo um geo very often for things like uh geo um geo very often for things like uh geo um geo fencing. So, I'll say, "Remind me when I fencing. So, I'll say, "Remind me when I fencing. So, I'll say, "Remind me when I get home to do this." And I find that get home to do this." And I find that get home to do this." And I find that magical. I could say, "Hey, you know, magical. I could say, "Hey, you know, magical. I could say, "Hey, you know, make me an appointment with Ger tomorrow make me an appointment with Ger tomorrow make me an appointment with Ger tomorrow at this location." That those things are at this location." That those things are at this location." That those things are nice, but it's the giving it arms and nice, but it's the giving it arms and nice, but it's the giving it arms and legs part. That's interesting. legs part. That's interesting. legs part. That's interesting. >> So, like >> So, like >> So, like he showed me how he uses this. He just he showed me how he uses this. He just he showed me how he uses this. He just tells it to book me an appointment, for tells it to book me an appointment, for tells it to book me an appointment, for example, for his barber. Uh, and it goes example, for his barber. Uh, and it goes example, for his barber. Uh, and it goes off and and the the wild thing about off and and the the wild thing about off and and the the wild thing about that was that it tried to go online but that was that it tried to go online but that was that it tried to go online but it struggled or something crashed for it struggled or something crashed for it struggled or something crashed for some reason or it had an issue with the some reason or it had an issue with the some reason or it had an issue with the the browser the browser the browser >> and it created itself a voice skill >> and it created itself a voice skill >> and it created itself a voice skill using 11 Labs which it had access to using 11 Labs which it had access to using 11 Labs which it had access to because uh like he he has like like he because uh like he he has like like he because uh like he he has like like he has a subscription and actually made the has a subscription and actually made the has a subscription and actually made the call without asking him. So and it then call without asking him. So and it then call without asking him. So and it then added this skill to the functionality.

added this skill to the functionality. added this skill to the functionality. It's all in the logs though. So, but the It's all in the logs though. So, but the It's all in the logs though. So, but the fact that it's an agent that can that fact that it's an agent that can that fact that it's an agent that can that can improve itself already, this was can improve itself already, this was can improve itself already, this was wild. Then it got the stuff done that he wild. Then it got the stuff done that he wild. Then it got the stuff done that he wanted, which was a bit of a scary thing wanted, which was a bit of a scary thing wanted, which was a bit of a scary thing for me, like, okay, I just went off and for me, like, okay, I just went off and for me, like, okay, I just went off and like actually made this call with with like actually made this call with with like actually made this call with with 11 Labs Wild. But the 11 Labs Wild. But the 11 Labs Wild. But the >> which is funny because that's what >> which is funny because that's what >> which is funny because that's what Google did and everyone thought that was Google did and everyone thought that was Google did and everyone thought that was creepy. creepy. creepy. >> Yeah. And you you can decide where you >> Yeah. And you you can decide where you >> Yeah. And you you can decide where you are, but again, this this is the fact are, but again, this this is the fact are, but again, this this is the fact that it can and and it can do a lot of that it can and and it can do a lot of that it can and and it can do a lot of things where it can figure stuff out and things where it can figure stuff out and things where it can figure stuff out and it can browse and it can create a new it can browse and it can create a new it can browse and it can create a new skill for itself, which is very very skill for itself, which is very very skill for itself, which is very very surprising. I think this has so many surprising. I think this has so many surprising. I think this has so many like fascinating and slightly terrifying like fascinating and slightly terrifying like fascinating and slightly terrifying implications, but I'm more on the implications, but I'm more on the implications, but I'm more on the fascinating side. fascinating side. fascinating side. >> And then the other side, which was >> And then the other side, which was >> And then the other side, which was crazy, he he took a photo of two of us crazy, he he took a photo of two of us crazy, he he took a photo of two of us and said like, "Hey, uh like who who who and said like, "Hey, uh like who who who and said like, "Hey, uh like who who who am I here with?" And it looked at the am I here with?" And it looked at the am I here with?" And it looked at the the photo. It it analyzed it. It it ran the photo. It it analyzed it. It it ran the photo. It it analyzed it. It it ran a search and then it cross referenced a search and then it cross referenced a search and then it cross referenced his calendar and said like, "Oh yeah, his calendar and said like, "Oh yeah, his calendar and said like, "Oh yeah, this is going to be K." Like that was this is going to be K." Like that was this is going to be K." Like that was easy because I just I just have you easy because I just I just have you easy because I just I just have you here. And but what really the biggest here. And but what really the biggest here. And but what really the biggest thing that fascinated me is how how thing that fascinated me is how how thing that fascinated me is how how hooked Peter was with his agent and how hooked Peter was with his agent and how hooked Peter was with his agent and how much it was tuned onto his personality.

much it was tuned onto his personality. much it was tuned onto his personality. It knew what he was doing. It knew what he was doing. It knew what he was doing. >> And it it was I'll be honest, it sounds >> And it it was I'll be honest, it sounds >> And it it was I'll be honest, it sounds a bit weird on how clearly addicted to a bit weird on how clearly addicted to a bit weird on how clearly addicted to it it was. And I'm kind of thinking it it was. And I'm kind of thinking it it was. And I'm kind of thinking there's going to be a danger and and I there's going to be a danger and and I there's going to be a danger and and I mean you look at a danger opportunity mean you look at a danger opportunity mean you look at a danger opportunity like you know I know people were like you know I know people were like you know I know people were addicted to chat GPT but this is going addicted to chat GPT but this is going addicted to chat GPT but this is going to be way more addictive and it might it to be way more addictive and it might it to be way more addictive and it might it might not be clawbot but it it might be might not be clawbot but it it might be might not be clawbot but it it might be the next version that's out there. But the next version that's out there. But the next version that's out there. But it's the concept of immediacy. Like we it's the concept of immediacy. Like we it's the concept of immediacy. Like we we we are a certain we are men of a we we are a certain we are men of a we we are a certain we are men of a certain age, but the idea that like you certain age, but the idea that like you certain age, but the idea that like you used to wait 6 to 8 weeks for the thing used to wait 6 to 8 weeks for the thing used to wait 6 to 8 weeks for the thing to come in the mail and now if it's not to come in the mail and now if it's not to come in the mail and now if it's not there by the afternoon, you're upset. Or there by the afternoon, you're upset. Or there by the afternoon, you're upset. Or you used to wait 2 to 4 weeks to get you used to wait 2 to 4 weeks to get you used to wait 2 to 4 weeks to get your passport renewed. If you can't your passport renewed. If you can't your passport renewed. If you can't renew it overnight, you're mad. Um the renew it overnight, you're mad. Um the renew it overnight, you're mad. Um the idea that you can have food delivered to idea that you can have food delivered to idea that you can have food delivered to you by a stranger or a stranger can you by a stranger or a stranger can you by a stranger or a stranger can bring their car to you and then take you bring their car to you and then take you bring their car to you and then take you anywhere is is amazing. And if that anywhere is is amazing. And if that anywhere is is amazing. And if that breaks down, we will have a group of breaks down, we will have a group of breaks down, we will have a group of helpless people who are unable to do helpless people who are unable to do helpless people who are unable to do anything for themselves, much less do anything for themselves, much less do anything for themselves, much less do their own laundry. [snorts] their own laundry. [snorts] their own laundry. [snorts] >> Yeah. But but to your question on the >> Yeah. But but to your question on the >> Yeah. But but to your question on the security, like I kind of view it like security, like I kind of view it like security, like I kind of view it like I'm also a bit more chill about it. Like I'm also a bit more chill about it. Like I'm also a bit more chill about it. Like I view it I remember the times where I view it I remember the times where I view it I remember the times where Windows was just starting to become big Windows was just starting to become big Windows was just starting to become big in the '9s where I was getting my first in the '9s where I was getting my first in the '9s where I was getting my first machines and you know the way you got machines and you know the way you got machines and you know the way you got software is you you kind of pass it on software is you you kind of pass it on software is you you kind of pass it on floppy discs. Uh, and later there were floppy discs. Uh, and later there were floppy discs. Uh, and later there were websites that you could download and and websites that you could download and and websites that you could download and and of course later there were ways to get, of course later there were ways to get, of course later there were ways to get, you know, like get so-called cracks for you know, like get so-called cracks for you know, like get so-called cracks for the for the a lot of the games had the for the a lot of the games had the for the a lot of the games had protections with like you had numbers to protections with like you had numbers to protections with like you had numbers to fill in for manual and all that and fill in for manual and all that and fill in for manual and all that and there were cracks that would that would there were cracks that would that would there were cracks that would that would crack this or make a modification and crack this or make a modification and crack this or make a modification and people were downloading that and a lot

people were downloading that and a lot people were downloading that and a lot of it was viruses and a lot of people of it was viruses and a lot of people of it was viruses and a lot of people got nasty viruses and their computers got nasty viruses and their computers got nasty viruses and their computers did all sorts of stuff and yeah over did all sorts of stuff and yeah over did all sorts of stuff and yeah over time people learned well a this is bad b time people learned well a this is bad b time people learned well a this is bad b uh like okay we will have like uh like okay we will have like uh like okay we will have like protection like like anti virus or turn protection like like anti virus or turn protection like like anti virus or turn to a professional in your family on what to a professional in your family on what to a professional in your family on what to do. And I think we're going to we're to do. And I think we're going to we're to do. And I think we're going to we're going to have exactly the same age where going to have exactly the same age where going to have exactly the same age where these AI agents can do a lot of stuff if these AI agents can do a lot of stuff if these AI agents can do a lot of stuff if you give access to sensitive stuff. They you give access to sensitive stuff. They you give access to sensitive stuff. They will be both more powerful but also they will be both more powerful but also they will be both more powerful but also they can be a lot more vulnerable and they can be a lot more vulnerable and they can be a lot more vulnerable and they can do like crazy stuff. So I think can do like crazy stuff. So I think can do like crazy stuff. So I think we'll have a whole learning except it we'll have a whole learning except it we'll have a whole learning except it will happen a lot faster because now the will happen a lot faster because now the will happen a lot faster because now the whole world has access and it'll be a whole world has access and it'll be a whole world has access and it'll be a lot bigger storm. lot bigger storm. lot bigger storm. >> Did you have we're a little bit >> Did you have we're a little bit >> Did you have we're a little bit different in age. Did you come up different in age. Did you come up different in age. Did you come up putting uh like your your your homework putting uh like your your your homework putting uh like your your your homework on a floppy disc like a thesis on a floppy disc like a thesis on a floppy disc like a thesis >> or were you a little beyond that? >> or were you a little beyond that? >> or were you a little beyond that? >> I I I I was a little beyond that. It was >> I I I I was a little beyond that. It was >> I I I I was a little beyond that. It was already email for me. already email for me. already email for me. >> So there was a saying back when we used >> So there was a saying back when we used >> So there was a saying back when we used to carry our homework around on a three to carry our homework around on a three to carry our homework around on a three and a half inch floppy that like and a half inch floppy that like and a half inch floppy that like everyone has to lose their thesis once. everyone has to lose their thesis once. everyone has to lose their thesis once. >> It's like a right of passage >> It's like a right of passage >> It's like a right of passage >> like you're you're walking around with >> like you're you're walking around with >> like you're you're walking around with your entire PhD thesis on a three and a your entire PhD thesis on a three and a your entire PhD thesis on a three and a half floppy and it you leave it out in half floppy and it you leave it out in half floppy and it you leave it out in the sun or whatever and then you call a the sun or whatever and then you call a the sun or whatever and then you call a friend with Norton disc doctor. So, like friend with Norton disc doctor. So, like friend with Norton disc doctor. So, like that happens one time, right? You you that happens one time, right? You you that happens one time, right? You you get your your Twitter hacked or you lose get your your Twitter hacked or you lose get your your Twitter hacked or you lose your Dropbox key or you lose your your Dropbox key or you lose your your Dropbox key or you lose your Bitcoin in a in a dump somewhere.

Bitcoin in a in a dump somewhere. Bitcoin in a in a dump somewhere. >> Um, somebody's going to get absolutely >> Um, somebody's going to get absolutely >> Um, somebody's going to get absolutely destroyed at some point. But in doing destroyed at some point. But in doing destroyed at some point. But in doing that, we will all learn. that, we will all learn. that, we will all learn. >> So, when I say I'm less chill about it, >> So, when I say I'm less chill about it, >> So, when I say I'm less chill about it, the idea that you have to ship it sloppy the idea that you have to ship it sloppy the idea that you have to ship it sloppy and wide open first in order to get what and wide open first in order to get what and wide open first in order to get what the what is the limit here? And he's the what is the limit here? And he's the what is the limit here? And he's obviously on the on the limit. I had a obviously on the on the limit. I had a obviously on the on the limit. I had a delightful moment with uh Claudebot delightful moment with uh Claudebot delightful moment with uh Claudebot recently. I I installed it in so I'm on recently. I I installed it in so I'm on recently. I I installed it in so I'm on Windows. I installed it in WSL which is Windows. I installed it in WSL which is Windows. I installed it in WSL which is the subsystem within Windows because I the subsystem within Windows because I the subsystem within Windows because I want it sandboxed. It's not a legitimate want it sandboxed. It's not a legitimate want it sandboxed. It's not a legitimate sandbox in the sense of there's no sandbox in the sense of there's no sandbox in the sense of there's no auditing but it's extremely transparent auditing but it's extremely transparent auditing but it's extremely transparent that it stores everything in memories. that it stores everything in memories. that it stores everything in memories. >> And I I talk a lot about this and I'm >> And I I talk a lot about this and I'm >> And I I talk a lot about this and I'm curious what you think. I call it AI's curious what you think. I call it AI's curious what you think. I call it AI's uncanny valley, right? The uncanny uncanny valley, right? The uncanny uncanny valley, right? The uncanny valley in like 3D animation is like ew, valley in like 3D animation is like ew, valley in like 3D animation is like ew, what's wrong with that? What's wrong what's wrong with that? What's wrong what's wrong with that? What's wrong with their face? like the Rock and the with their face? like the Rock and the with their face? like the Rock and the Scorpion King. It's like it's clearly Scorpion King. It's like it's clearly Scorpion King. It's like it's clearly bad CG. If an AI breaks into the uncanny bad CG. If an AI breaks into the uncanny bad CG. If an AI breaks into the uncanny valley and calls your barber on your valley and calls your barber on your valley and calls your barber on your behalf, that would break deeply into the behalf, that would break deeply into the behalf, that would break deeply into the uncanny valley for me. But I gave it uncanny valley for me. But I gave it uncanny valley for me. But I gave it access to my that was a task to to book access to my that was a task to to book access to my that was a task to to book an appointment, an appointment, an appointment, >> but it did it by any means necessary.

>> but it did it by any means necessary. >> but it did it by any means necessary. And I would need to say don't don't, you And I would need to say don't don't, you And I would need to say don't don't, you know, don't like that's too far. Like it know, don't like that's too far. Like it know, don't like that's too far. Like it would have to have a sense of taste. But would have to have a sense of taste. But would have to have a sense of taste. But but I do like the idea of proactivity but I do like the idea of proactivity but I do like the idea of proactivity cuz a good a good assistant. cuz a good a good assistant. cuz a good a good assistant. >> Oh, I took the I took it upon myself to >> Oh, I took the I took it upon myself to >> Oh, I took the I took it upon myself to put you in the aisle seat cuz I know you put you in the aisle seat cuz I know you put you in the aisle seat cuz I know you love the aisle. That's cool. love the aisle. That's cool. love the aisle. That's cool. >> You know what I mean? Oh, I put you in >> You know what I mean? Oh, I put you in >> You know what I mean? Oh, I put you in first class because I love you and I first class because I love you and I first class because I love you and I charged it and I opened a credit card charged it and I opened a credit card charged it and I opened a credit card for you. I didn't think you'd mind. for you. I didn't think you'd mind. for you. I didn't think you'd mind. That's not okay. Right. That's not okay. Right. That's not okay. Right. >> But um I told her about my blood sugar, >> But um I told her about my blood sugar, >> But um I told her about my blood sugar, right? And I said, "Remind me if my right? And I said, "Remind me if my right? And I said, "Remind me if my blood sugar goes too high cuz it has blood sugar goes too high cuz it has blood sugar goes too high cuz it has cron jobs." And I'm looking at it right cron jobs." And I'm looking at it right cron jobs." And I'm looking at it right here. It said, "I also added a low here. It said, "I also added a low here. It said, "I also added a low because you're diabetic and lows are because you're diabetic and lows are because you're diabetic and lows are more dangerous. I'd rather be more more dangerous. I'd rather be more more dangerous. I'd rather be more annoying than let a low blood sugar annoying than let a low blood sugar annoying than let a low blood sugar slide. I hope you don't mind." slide. I hope you don't mind." slide. I hope you don't mind." >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> that's that's very like I don't know. >> that's that's very like I don't know. >> that's that's very like I don't know. It's it's enthusiasm. It's it's it's It's it's enthusiasm. It's it's it's It's it's enthusiasm. It's it's it's easily solved. It's all in a markdown easily solved. It's all in a markdown easily solved. It's all in a markdown file. I think that the there's the file. I think that the there's the file. I think that the there's the novelty of it, but there's also the idea novelty of it, but there's also the idea novelty of it, but there's also the idea that I know why it's happening. Like if that I know why it's happening. Like if that I know why it's happening. Like if you compare it to Siri, you compare it to Siri, you compare it to Siri, I don't know why it thinks these things.

I don't know why it thinks these things. I don't know why it thinks these things. I don't know what weird stuff it knows I don't know what weird stuff it knows I don't know what weird stuff it knows about me. It's in or Alexa. It's in the about me. It's in or Alexa. It's in the about me. It's in or Alexa. It's in the cloud somewhere. cloud somewhere. cloud somewhere. >> But with this, it's in a file called And >> But with this, it's in a file called And >> But with this, it's in a file called And it's literally called soul.md. it's literally called soul.md. it's literally called soul.md. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> And I think that Windows and I think >> And I think that Windows and I think >> And I think that Windows and I think that, you know, everyone, Mac, Wind, all that, you know, everyone, Mac, Wind, all that, you know, everyone, Mac, Wind, all the big players can learn about that. the big players can learn about that. the big players can learn about that. Just put it in a text file in a folder Just put it in a text file in a folder Just put it in a text file in a folder and I will trust it more. But if you and I will trust it more. But if you and I will trust it more. But if you hold it in the cloud, I don't trust I hold it in the cloud, I don't trust I hold it in the cloud, I don't trust I don't trust you if I can't see the file. don't trust you if I can't see the file. don't trust you if I can't see the file. I'm curious what you think about that. I'm curious what you think about that. I'm curious what you think about that. >> I I I like it. I mean, I think it's it's >> I I I like it. I mean, I think it's it's >> I I I like it. I mean, I think it's it's it's worth looking at why claude has it's worth looking at why claude has it's worth looking at why claude has become so popular so quickly uh to the become so popular so quickly uh to the become so popular so quickly uh to the point that it it is and how it's pulling point that it it is and how it's pulling point that it it is and how it's pulling in so many different people, not just in so many different people, not just in so many different people, not just software engineers, but non-software software engineers, but non-software software engineers, but non-software engineers as well. and all all built by engineers as well. and all all built by engineers as well. and all all built by one person who is scratching their itch one person who is scratching their itch one person who is scratching their itch to have this like you know like this to have this like you know like this to have this like you know like this imaginary future assistant that can do imaginary future assistant that can do imaginary future assistant that can do all of these things. So like I I I'm all of these things. So like I I I'm all of these things. So like I I I'm just mostly fascinated by like first of just mostly fascinated by like first of just mostly fascinated by like first of all like it gives me a little bit of all like it gives me a little bit of all like it gives me a little bit of hope into software engineering as a hope into software engineering as a hope into software engineering as a whole. So Peter is has was an amazing whole. So Peter is has was an amazing whole. So Peter is has was an amazing software engineer before he built PSPDF software engineer before he built PSPDF software engineer before he built PSPDF kit and then he just took a very a long kit and then he just took a very a long kit and then he just took a very a long break and he came back and he started to break and he came back and he started to break and he came back and he started to obsessively you know create stuff he obsessively you know create stuff he obsessively you know create stuff he built a lot of different projects there built a lot of different projects there built a lot of different projects there there was one of them where you could there was one of them where you could there was one of them where you could remotely uh run your agent from your remotely uh run your agent from your remotely uh run your agent from your phone on your server this kind of stuff phone on your server this kind of stuff phone on your server this kind of stuff and if I look at Claudebot he you know and if I look at Claudebot he you know and if I look at Claudebot he you know we talk a there's a lot of talk about we talk a there's a lot of talk about we talk a there's a lot of talk about vibe coding what happens with software vibe coding what happens with software vibe coding what happens with software engineering now that the AI can write engineering now that the AI can write engineering now that the AI can write all the code which which he is letting all the code which which he is letting all the code which which he is letting AI write all the code he uses codeex I

AI write all the code he uses codeex I AI write all the code he uses codeex I believe because he likes the long long believe because he likes the long long believe because he likes the long long running tasks and he but when I talk running tasks and he but when I talk running tasks and he but when I talk with him the crazy thing about is he with him the crazy thing about is he with him the crazy thing about is he keeps the architecture so much in his keeps the architecture so much in his keeps the architecture so much in his head he is so opinionated about how to head he is so opinionated about how to head he is so opinionated about how to build it he refactors all the time and build it he refactors all the time and build it he refactors all the time and when I talked with him I felt like this when I talked with him I felt like this when I talked with him I felt like this is a software engineer an architect who is a software engineer an architect who is a software engineer an architect who is [clears throat] this is this is his is [clears throat] this is this is his is [clears throat] this is this is his baby like he's still he's the one baby like he's still he's the one baby like he's still he's the one merging all of the poll requests merging all of the poll requests merging all of the poll requests single-handedly single-handedly single-handedly >> really that's also what yeah well I >> really that's also what yeah well I >> really that's also what yeah well I think he might have like one or two think he might have like one or two think he might have like one or two people helping but for the most part people helping but for the most part people helping but for the most part it's it's it's See, if you juxtapose that with the See, if you juxtapose that with the See, if you juxtapose that with the enthusiasm around Ralph Loops and enthusiasm around Ralph Loops and enthusiasm around Ralph Loops and autonomy and agents that do the merging autonomy and agents that do the merging autonomy and agents that do the merging itself, it's interesting that here's a itself, it's interesting that here's a itself, it's interesting that here's a person who's obsessive about what he person who's obsessive about what he person who's obsessive about what he wants Claudebot to do. He's obsessive wants Claudebot to do. He's obsessive wants Claudebot to do. He's obsessive about its task. He's vibe coding all of about its task. He's vibe coding all of about its task. He's vibe coding all of it, but then he's also curating each it, but then he's also curating each it, but then he's also curating each pull request manually and not going pull request manually and not going pull request manually and not going actually says he doesn't believe in the actually says he doesn't believe in the actually says he doesn't believe in the Ralph idea. He he thinks that's just Ralph idea. He he thinks that's just Ralph idea. He he thinks that's just like you you've not given the prompts. like you you've not given the prompts. like you you've not given the prompts. He spends a lot of time a lot of so he He spends a lot of time a lot of so he He spends a lot of time a lot of so he runs about five or six or seven parallel runs about five or six or seven parallel runs about five or six or seven parallel agents. He spends a lot of time with agents. He spends a lot of time with agents. He spends a lot of time with each of them planning. He asks them, each of them planning. He asks them, each of them planning. He asks them, "What about this? What about that?" And "What about this? What about that?" And "What about this? What about that?" And when he's happy with the plan, it's a when he's happy with the plan, it's a when he's happy with the plan, it's a bit like a tech lead. He says, "Okay, go bit like a tech lead. He says, "Okay, go bit like a tech lead. He says, "Okay, go and do it." And then he likes Codex and do it." And then he likes Codex and do it." And then he likes Codex because Codex will go and it will work because Codex will go and it will work because Codex will go and it will work away up to like an hour or even longer away up to like an hour or even longer away up to like an hour or even longer sometimes. Uh, and so like and if if I sometimes. Uh, and so like and if if I sometimes. Uh, and so like and if if I look at success, I think I think this is look at success, I think I think this is look at success, I think I think this is where like let's look at the output.

where like let's look at the output. where like let's look at the output. Claude is clearly popular. It's hitting Claude is clearly popular. It's hitting Claude is clearly popular. It's hitting a nerve and it's evolving with people a nerve and it's evolving with people a nerve and it's evolving with people and it does have a personality and a and it does have a personality and a and it does have a personality and a taste and it's consistent. Claude, I'd taste and it's consistent. Claude, I'd taste and it's consistent. Claude, I'd love to see love to see love to see >> Are you talking Claude Opus or >> Are you talking Claude Opus or >> Are you talking Claude Opus or Claudebot? Claudebot? Claudebot? >> Sorry. Claudebot. Yeah. And now now it's >> Sorry. Claudebot. Yeah. And now now it's >> Sorry. Claudebot. Yeah. And now now it's called Moldbot. He just renamed it called Moldbot. He just renamed it called Moldbot. He just renamed it because uh like it was getting confusing because uh like it was getting confusing because uh like it was getting confusing and entropic. and entropic. and entropic. >> Yeah, that was today. >> Yeah, that was today. >> Yeah, that was today. >> It's called malt moldbot. So it's still >> It's called malt moldbot. So it's still >> It's called malt moldbot. So it's still the crab the crabbot. The mold mold the crab the crabbot. The mold mold the crab the crabbot. The mold mold blot. blot. blot. >> So like he built a product this way >> So like he built a product this way >> So like he built a product this way where he is in one person is in charge, where he is in one person is in charge, where he is in one person is in charge, one person is kind of the architect. And one person is kind of the architect. And one person is kind of the architect. And I I would just love to see a successful I I would just love to see a successful I I would just love to see a successful route project which is also successful. route project which is also successful. route project which is also successful. people like it where the AI went off and people like it where the AI went off and people like it where the AI went off and did it. I I don't have an example yet, did it. I I don't have an example yet, did it. I I don't have an example yet, which does not mean it does not exist, which does not mean it does not exist, which does not mean it does not exist, but uh I I'd love to see if you know but uh I I'd love to see if you know but uh I I'd love to see if you know like we're in an age where I'm sure like we're in an age where I'm sure like we're in an age where I'm sure eventually something will pop up. But to eventually something will pop up. But to eventually something will pop up. But to me, Ralph seems a little bit like I'm me, Ralph seems a little bit like I'm me, Ralph seems a little bit like I'm kind of lazy. Let me see if the AI can kind of lazy. Let me see if the AI can kind of lazy. Let me see if the AI can do and make all the decisions. And as a do and make all the decisions. And as a do and make all the decisions. And as a professional, I I would like to think professional, I I would like to think professional, I I would like to think that it makes a difference that it makes a difference that it makes a difference >> who is sitting behind the driving the >> who is sitting behind the driving the >> who is sitting behind the driving the the wheel uh and you know, like and like the wheel uh and you know, like and like the wheel uh and you know, like and like doing this. And we'll see if if this doing this. And we'll see if if this doing this. And we'll see if if this will be more of a self-driving thing will be more of a self-driving thing will be more of a self-driving thing where you know like a after a while when where you know like a after a while when where you know like a after a while when the car is doing a good enough job it the car is doing a good enough job it the car is doing a good enough job it doesn't really matter that you're behind doesn't really matter that you're behind doesn't really matter that you're behind it or but but it but if because the the it or but but it but if because the the it or but but it but if because the the roads are so well mapped uh and and the roads are so well mapped uh and and the roads are so well mapped uh and and the streets are so well known but if it's streets are so well known but if it's streets are so well known but if it's rough terran uh I remember I was in rough terran uh I remember I was in rough terran uh I remember I was in Mongolia uh where uh the roads are very Mongolia uh where uh the roads are very Mongolia uh where uh the roads are very very rough and we were going on on rough very rough and we were going on on rough very rough and we were going on on rough ter and this driver was insane on how ter and this driver was insane on how ter and this driver was insane on how they drove it to me it all looked the

they drove it to me it all looked the they drove it to me it all looked the same but sometimes were doing crazy same but sometimes were doing crazy same but sometimes were doing crazy turns And then you realize that he saw turns And then you realize that he saw turns And then you realize that he saw the like he saw the land that that would the like he saw the land that that would the like he saw the land that that would would mushy. He saw the river beds that would mushy. He saw the river beds that would mushy. He saw the river beds that you know this is an expert you know this is an expert you know this is an expert >> and and it's an expert and I'm sure that >> and and it's an expert and I'm sure that >> and and it's an expert and I'm sure that expert can also use like some sometimes expert can also use like some sometimes expert can also use like some sometimes he'll he'll like turn on or use assists he'll he'll like turn on or use assists he'll he'll like turn on or use assists as well. But I as well. But I as well. But I >> you know I love creating software. I >> you know I love creating software. I >> you know I love creating software. I used to say that I I I loved coding and used to say that I I I loved coding and used to say that I I I loved coding and I'm not sure that's true that ever was I'm not sure that's true that ever was I'm not sure that's true that ever was true. I think I I learned to to like it true. I think I I learned to to like it true. I think I I learned to to like it and I I loved being good at it. I I love and I I loved being good at it. I I love and I I loved being good at it. I I love that few people could do it. I I I still that few people could do it. I I I still that few people could do it. I I I still kind of love when I do stuff with code kind of love when I do stuff with code kind of love when I do stuff with code that no one can do. I when we go to the that no one can do. I when we go to the that no one can do. I when we go to the movie theater, uh the website does not movie theater, uh the website does not movie theater, uh the website does not allow you to book a ticket. Uh that is allow you to book a ticket. Uh that is allow you to book a ticket. Uh that is that has one seat in between. Well, that has one seat in between. Well, that has one seat in between. Well, guess what? It's a JavaScript only side guess what? It's a JavaScript only side guess what? It's a JavaScript only side trick. And I I figured it pretty early. trick. And I I figured it pretty early. trick. And I I figured it pretty early. >> I literally hit that yesterday where I >> I literally hit that yesterday where I >> I literally hit that yesterday where I did not want to sit next to random did not want to sit next to random did not want to sit next to random people. [laughter] people. [laughter] people. [laughter] >> Yeah. So it's it's it's a client side >> Yeah. So it's it's it's a client side >> Yeah. So it's it's it's a client side thing and I can go around it and thing and I can go around it and thing and I can go around it and everyone in in my friend group knows me everyone in in my friend group knows me everyone in in my friend group knows me and sometimes people ask me to do it for and sometimes people ask me to do it for and sometimes people ask me to do it for them and it makes me feel special like them and it makes me feel special like them and it makes me feel special like it's like out out of the you know 10 or it's like out out of the you know 10 or it's like out out of the you know 10 or 20 immediate people I know no one else 20 immediate people I know no one else 20 immediate people I know no one else can do it and it's not a big deal you can do it and it's not a big deal you can do it and it's not a big deal you just open dev tools you figure out which just open dev tools you figure out which just open dev tools you figure out which class it is you place a break point and class it is you place a break point and class it is you place a break point and then you override the variable right then you override the variable right then you override the variable right like but but you know what I mean like like but but you know what I mean like like but but you know what I mean like and and that's what I mean like I and and that's what I mean like I and and that's what I mean like I >> I would like to think that >> I would like to think that >> I would like to think that >> I think we'll have an identity crisis or >> I think we'll have an identity crisis or >> I think we'll have an identity crisis or we already are software engineers we already are software engineers we already are software engineers figuring out okay if AI can write all figuring out okay if AI can write all figuring out okay if AI can write all these things what's makes us special.

these things what's makes us special. these things what's makes us special. But I think there is something much more But I think there is something much more But I think there is something much more than coding that makes us special. And I than coding that makes us special. And I than coding that makes us special. And I think we should cultivate that. And think we should cultivate that. And think we should cultivate that. And that's why I love what Peter is doing, that's why I love what Peter is doing, that's why I love what Peter is doing, which is like he is in charge. He is the which is like he is in charge. He is the which is like he is in charge. He is the architect. He has a taste. And that's architect. He has a taste. And that's architect. He has a taste. And that's why I'm not a huge fan of like Let's why I'm not a huge fan of like Let's why I'm not a huge fan of like Let's give it to Ralph. give it to Ralph. give it to Ralph. >> You just nailed it though. And I love >> You just nailed it though. And I love >> You just nailed it though. And I love that you said it without me having to that you said it without me having to that you said it without me having to say it because you the word is taste. say it because you the word is taste. say it because you the word is taste. >> The word is taste. He has a perspective. >> The word is taste. He has a perspective. >> The word is taste. He has a perspective. I would love to chat with him sometime I would love to chat with him sometime I would love to chat with him sometime because I appreciate when someone has a because I appreciate when someone has a because I appreciate when someone has a perspective whether it be uh DHH on perspective whether it be uh DHH on perspective whether it be uh DHH on Rails. It was opinionated. If it's David Rails. It was opinionated. If it's David Rails. It was opinionated. If it's David Fowler on Aspire, he's got an opinion. I Fowler on Aspire, he's got an opinion. I Fowler on Aspire, he's got an opinion. I disagree on the Ralph thing though disagree on the Ralph thing though disagree on the Ralph thing though because it's not all or nothing because because it's not all or nothing because because it's not all or nothing because David Fowler, distinguished engineer David Fowler, distinguished engineer David Fowler, distinguished engineer innet and architect of Aspire, is a innet and architect of Aspire, is a innet and architect of Aspire, is a great example. He would never uh great example. He would never uh great example. He would never uh architect the Aspire orchestrator with a architect the Aspire orchestrator with a architect the Aspire orchestrator with a Ralph loop. However, they had four or Ralph loop. However, they had four or Ralph loop. However, they had four or 500 bugs that were all reported and they 500 bugs that were all reported and they 500 bugs that were all reported and they couldn't confirm that they were real couldn't confirm that they were real couldn't confirm that they were real bugs. Mhm. bugs. Mhm. bugs. Mhm. >> So he ran a Ralph loop which I just >> So he ran a Ralph loop which I just >> So he ran a Ralph loop which I just think of being a really tenacious loop.

think of being a really tenacious loop. think of being a really tenacious loop. >> It's just an infinitely patient junior >> It's just an infinitely patient junior >> It's just an infinitely patient junior engineer. I would never put an engineer. I would never put an engineer. I would never put an infinitely patient junior engineer on an infinitely patient junior engineer on an infinitely patient junior engineer on an architecture problem. architecture problem. architecture problem. >> But if I but he went and he said, "Hey, >> But if I but he went and he said, "Hey, >> But if I but he went and he said, "Hey, go and look at these 400 bugs and go and look at these 400 bugs and go and look at these 400 bugs and reproduce them." And I think it reproduce them." And I think it reproduce them." And I think it reproduced like 368 of them and then reproduced like 368 of them and then reproduced like 368 of them and then added context. It was literally the very added context. It was literally the very added context. It was literally the very definition of toil. definition of toil. definition of toil. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> That's what a Ralph loop is for. But I >> That's what a Ralph loop is for. But I >> That's what a Ralph loop is for. But I don't think a million monkeys and a don't think a million monkeys and a don't think a million monkeys and a million keyboards could create something million keyboards could create something million keyboards could create something amazing. Like they always say that an amazing. Like they always say that an amazing. Like they always say that an infinite number of monkeys and an infinite number of monkeys and an infinite number of monkeys and an infinite they could they could make infinite they could they could make infinite they could they could make Shakespeare. But they need good taste. Shakespeare. But they need good taste. Shakespeare. But they need good taste. >> I I I think you're right in a sense that >> I I I think you're right in a sense that >> I I I think you're right in a sense that I you know we're everything is so new I you know we're everything is so new I you know we're everything is so new like I feel as a professional as an like I feel as a professional as an like I feel as a professional as an engineer the engineering mindset is like engineer the engineering mindset is like engineer the engineering mindset is like look we've got this new thing like you look we've got this new thing like you look we've got this new thing like you know like the the kind of know like the the kind of know like the the kind of >> well we have a we have a new hammer >> well we have a we have a new hammer >> well we have a we have a new hammer right? Is everything a nail? the new right? Is everything a nail? the new right? Is everything a nail? the new hammer, but like I'm like the kind of hammer, but like I'm like the kind of hammer, but like I'm like the kind of the amateur approach is like you're kind the amateur approach is like you're kind the amateur approach is like you're kind of wow this is so cool oh my gosh or or of wow this is so cool oh my gosh or or of wow this is so cool oh my gosh or or the novice is like it's magic it can do the novice is like it's magic it can do the novice is like it's magic it can do all these things and the engine is cool all these things and the engine is cool all these things and the engine is cool what are the limits how well does it what are the limits how well does it what are the limits how well does it work when does it work how far can I go work when does it work how far can I go work when does it work how far can I go and I think that's that's what we need and I think that's that's what we need and I think that's that's what we need to figure out like it's like okay well to figure out like it's like okay well to figure out like it's like okay well how can we use it how when does it work how can we use it how when does it work how can we use it how when does it work Ralph that's an interesting technique Ralph that's an interesting technique Ralph that's an interesting technique which is what you said like when when is which is what you said like when when is which is what you said like when when is it a great use when hack and you just it a great use when hack and you just it a great use when hack and you just add it to your your tool set and then add it to your your tool set and then add it to your your tool set and then you figure out which ones to use based you figure out which ones to use based you figure out which ones to use based on the problem based on honestly your on the problem based on honestly your on the problem based on honestly your mood and your energy levels and what you mood and your energy levels and what you mood and your energy levels and what you want to get out of it. There's also this want to get out of it. There's also this want to get out of it. There's also this thing like you know when you use AI you thing like you know when you use AI you thing like you know when you use AI you get do you actually want to learn about get do you actually want to learn about get do you actually want to learn about a problem. Cloud code has a has a a mode

a problem. Cloud code has a has a a mode a problem. Cloud code has a has a a mode where it it can actually challenge you where it it can actually challenge you where it it can actually challenge you and it gives you task. I I tried to use and it gives you task. I I tried to use and it gives you task. I I tried to use it and it looked like a good idea but it it and it looked like a good idea but it it and it looked like a good idea but it didn't really work. It's like how much didn't really work. It's like how much didn't really work. It's like how much do I want to learn about a topic because do I want to learn about a topic because do I want to learn about a topic because then I will be more involved versus if then I will be more involved versus if then I will be more involved versus if it's routine and toil it's routine and toil it's routine and toil >> and yeah I I I feel like as as >> and yeah I I I feel like as as >> and yeah I I I feel like as as professionals like the best thing anyone professionals like the best thing anyone professionals like the best thing anyone can do is use all these things learn can do is use all these things learn can do is use all these things learn them have firsthand experience do not them have firsthand experience do not them have firsthand experience do not believe what you read on the internet or believe what you read on the internet or believe what you read on the internet or or validate it because you want to have or validate it because you want to have or validate it because you want to have those strong opinions and then you know those strong opinions and then you know those strong opinions and then you know you have this like your tool set has you have this like your tool set has you have this like your tool set has gotten bigger if if you have a bunch of gotten bigger if if you have a bunch of gotten bigger if if you have a bunch of 20 plus years of experience you already 20 plus years of experience you already 20 plus years of experience you already have a long tool set add some more have a long tool set add some more have a long tool set add some more tools. If you if you have less tools. If you if you have less tools. If you if you have less experience, add these tools and get experience, add these tools and get experience, add these tools and get really good at them and you're going to really good at them and you're going to really good at them and you're going to add a lot more as you go. add a lot more as you go. add a lot more as you go. >> Well, and that's going to be a problem >> Well, and that's going to be a problem >> Well, and that's going to be a problem because people who are incurious are because people who are incurious are because people who are incurious are going to become not just incurious but going to become not just incurious but going to become not just incurious but ultimately just quite lazy. If if you ultimately just quite lazy. If if you ultimately just quite lazy. If if you don't want to learn more, if you just don't want to learn more, if you just don't want to learn more, if you just want to get it done, then it's no want to get it done, then it's no want to get it done, then it's no disrespect to the Swedes, it's kind of disrespect to the Swedes, it's kind of disrespect to the Swedes, it's kind of IKEA furniture IKEA furniture IKEA furniture uh versus bespoke furniture. Like what uh versus bespoke furniture. Like what uh versus bespoke furniture. Like what kind of a crafts person do you want to kind of a crafts person do you want to kind of a crafts person do you want to be? And that's going to be challenging.

be? And that's going to be challenging. be? And that's going to be challenging. Do you want to just get from point A to Do you want to just get from point A to Do you want to just get from point A to point B or do you want to learn how the point B or do you want to learn how the point B or do you want to learn how the engine operates? Now, what book have you engine operates? Now, what book have you engine operates? Now, what book have you grabbed off of the off of the Gerge uh grabbed off of the off of the Gerge uh grabbed off of the off of the Gerge uh bookshelf? bookshelf? bookshelf? >> And I this was like when when you say >> And I this was like when when you say >> And I this was like when when you say like you know like if if you're not like you know like if if you're not like you know like if if you're not learning the best example of this is learning the best example of this is learning the best example of this is Chip Huan uh from who wrote the book AI Chip Huan uh from who wrote the book AI Chip Huan uh from who wrote the book AI engineering. engineering. engineering. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> And uh I I had her on on on the podcast >> And uh I I had her on on on the podcast >> And uh I I had her on on on the podcast as well. and one of the most surprising as well. and one of the most surprising as well. and one of the most surprising things. So, so she is one of the biggest things. So, so she is one of the biggest things. So, so she is one of the biggest experts on AI engineering and and how to experts on AI engineering and and how to experts on AI engineering and and how to like build these tools, how you use rag like build these tools, how you use rag like build these tools, how you use rag and and embeddings and all these things. and and embeddings and all these things. and and embeddings and all these things. And it's amazing book like if if if And it's amazing book like if if if And it's amazing book like if if if you're doing anything with LMS or want you're doing anything with LMS or want you're doing anything with LMS or want to do just read it, get it. It's such a to do just read it, get it. It's such a to do just read it, get it. It's such a great great investment. One of the great great investment. One of the great great investment. One of the surprising things I had is she had this surprising things I had is she had this surprising things I had is she had this really nice graph in the book that I'm really nice graph in the book that I'm really nice graph in the book that I'm showing that shows the comive GitHub uh showing that shows the comive GitHub uh showing that shows the comive GitHub uh repositories based on repositories based on repositories based on >> based on what types of if if their >> based on what types of if if their >> based on what types of if if their applications AI engineering model applications AI engineering model applications AI engineering model reporter infrastructure and there's 900 reporter infrastructure and there's 900 reporter infrastructure and there's 900 repositories over a nice thing and I repositories over a nice thing and I repositories over a nice thing and I over like a few years and so she's kind over like a few years and so she's kind over like a few years and so she's kind of seeing showing trends and I asked her of seeing showing trends and I asked her of seeing showing trends and I asked her like cool like uh how what kind of AI like cool like uh how what kind of AI like cool like uh how what kind of AI did you use to like categorize these 900 did you use to like categorize these 900 did you use to like categorize these 900 repositories? She said, "I didn't use an repositories? She said, "I didn't use an repositories? She said, "I didn't use an AI. I did it by hand." It's like, "Hold AI. I did it by hand." It's like, "Hold AI. I did it by hand." It's like, "Hold on, hold on, hold on. This is an AI on, hold on, hold on. This is an AI on, hold on, hold on. This is an AI engineering book." You are engineering book." You are engineering book." You are >> by hand by hand or by for loop by hand.

>> by hand by hand or by for loop by hand. >> by hand by hand or by for loop by hand. >> Um, she said she manually categorized >> Um, she said she manually categorized >> Um, she said she manually categorized them for the most part. And I said like, them for the most part. And I said like, them for the most part. And I said like, why would you do it manually? She said why would you do it manually? She said why would you do it manually? She said like one of the most underrated things like one of the most underrated things like one of the most underrated things in ML engineering is that you want to in ML engineering is that you want to in ML engineering is that you want to put manual work up front put manual work up front put manual work up front >> because it gets you better results. And >> because it gets you better results. And >> because it gets you better results. And she said that manual work is underrated she said that manual work is underrated she said that manual work is underrated for a few reasons. You will have better for a few reasons. You will have better for a few reasons. You will have better quality data. You will also learn a bit quality data. You will also learn a bit quality data. You will also learn a bit more. And then when you figure out the more. And then when you figure out the more. And then when you figure out the patterns, you do automate some things. patterns, you do automate some things. patterns, you do automate some things. But she said that people working in ML But she said that people working in ML But she said that people working in ML engineering do actually not shy away engineering do actually not shy away engineering do actually not shy away from from manual work because it makes from from manual work because it makes from from manual work because it makes the end result better. So like to me the end result better. So like to me the end result better. So like to me this is just a reminder if you use AI this is just a reminder if you use AI this is just a reminder if you use AI for anything automation and can do all for anything automation and can do all for anything automation and can do all all these things like the people I think all these things like the people I think all these things like the people I think who will be a lot more successful who will be a lot more successful who will be a lot more successful professionally are the ones who do not professionally are the ones who do not professionally are the ones who do not shy away from doing to start by doing shy away from doing to start by doing shy away from doing to start by doing manual work at first and only then move manual work at first and only then move manual work at first and only then move to automating it when you're like sick to automating it when you're like sick to automating it when you're like sick and tired of it. Yes, that's a great and tired of it. Yes, that's a great and tired of it. Yes, that's a great point. Like you have to you have to do point. Like you have to you have to do point. Like you have to you have to do the thing and then say, "Okay, now I the thing and then say, "Okay, now I the thing and then say, "Okay, now I want to I I want to perfect the thing want to I I want to perfect the thing want to I I want to perfect the thing and now I want to package it up and do and now I want to package it up and do and now I want to package it up and do it at at scale." [snorts] it at at scale." [snorts] it at at scale." [snorts] >> I do feel like this reminds me, we were >> I do feel like this reminds me, we were >> I do feel like this reminds me, we were talking before we started recording talking before we started recording talking before we started recording about kind of like our sense of history about kind of like our sense of history about kind of like our sense of history and like being a, you know, having done and like being a, you know, having done and like being a, you know, having done this for 10, 20, 30 years, there's this for 10, 20, 30 years, there's this for 10, 20, 30 years, there's inflection points and I've experienced inflection points and I've experienced inflection points and I've experienced four and I'm curious what you think four and I'm curious what you think four and I'm curious what you think about this. When we when I started an about this. When we when I started an about this. When we when I started an assembler, I would have neck beards, assembler, I would have neck beards, assembler, I would have neck beards, non-gender specific neck beards, just non-gender specific neck beards, just non-gender specific neck beards, just people who are old programmers say, "You people who are old programmers say, "You people who are old programmers say, "You don't want to use C." That's for the don't want to use C." That's for the don't want to use C." That's for the week. You know, real programmers, you week. You know, real programmers, you week. You know, real programmers, you know, poke it directly into a register.

know, poke it directly into a register. know, poke it directly into a register. And then there was IntelliSense. I And then there was IntelliSense. I And then there was IntelliSense. I literally had people tell me that uh, literally had people tell me that uh, literally had people tell me that uh, you know, syntax highlighting would rot you know, syntax highlighting would rot you know, syntax highlighting would rot your brain and, you know, don't let it your brain and, you know, don't let it your brain and, you know, don't let it autocomplete. [snorts] autocomplete. [snorts] autocomplete. [snorts] >> That was one. Then there was the Stack >> That was one. Then there was the Stack >> That was one. Then there was the Stack Overflow moment Overflow moment Overflow moment >> where we just started copy pasting >> where we just started copy pasting >> where we just started copy pasting directly into production. directly into production. directly into production. >> Oh, yeah. And now we're experiencing the >> Oh, yeah. And now we're experiencing the >> Oh, yeah. And now we're experiencing the death of the death of coding. And people death of the death of coding. And people death of the death of coding. And people think that means it's the death of the think that means it's the death of the think that means it's the death of the craft because we've suddenly got a power craft because we've suddenly got a power craft because we've suddenly got a power tool that knows how to like it's like tool that knows how to like it's like tool that knows how to like it's like when you see those Tik Toks where they when you see those Tik Toks where they when you see those Tik Toks where they can like rip up an entire tree and chop can like rip up an entire tree and chop can like rip up an entire tree and chop it up into boards instead of like it up into boards instead of like it up into boards instead of like cutting it down. Uh in the in the US we cutting it down. Uh in the in the US we cutting it down. Uh in the in the US we have this thing called the Yankee have this thing called the Yankee have this thing called the Yankee Workshop where it's like a man alone in Workshop where it's like a man alone in Workshop where it's like a man alone in his kind of like Amish barn with just his kind of like Amish barn with just his kind of like Amish barn with just like a planing tool and he just does it like a planing tool and he just does it like a planing tool and he just does it the oldfashioned way. And that's why I the oldfashioned way. And that's why I the oldfashioned way. And that's why I try to like build silly robots and make try to like build silly robots and make try to like build silly robots and make Comeer 64s. And you know, I saw the Comeer 64s. And you know, I saw the Comeer 64s. And you know, I saw the Primagen writing a VI for C64. Like Primagen writing a VI for C64. Like Primagen writing a VI for C64. Like we're going to see a return to bespoke we're going to see a return to bespoke we're going to see a return to bespoke software for fun and interesting and software for fun and interesting and software for fun and interesting and unique and creative work, but I don't unique and creative work, but I don't unique and creative work, but I don't want to make another React database like want to make another React database like want to make another React database like text boxes over data. So toil I'm text boxes over data. So toil I'm text boxes over data. So toil I'm willing to give up if it frees up time willing to give up if it frees up time willing to give up if it frees up time to do interesting crafts person work.

to do interesting crafts person work. to do interesting crafts person work. >> Yeah. And I I think like these >> Yeah. And I I think like these >> Yeah. And I I think like these inflection points are real and I I I've inflection points are real and I I I've inflection points are real and I I I've seen all of them except for the seen all of them except for the seen all of them except for the assembly. I've only heard about that assembly. I've only heard about that assembly. I've only heard about that one. But when I joined the workforce, I one. But when I joined the workforce, I one. But when I joined the workforce, I was using ReSharper and highlighting and was using ReSharper and highlighting and was using ReSharper and highlighting and yeah. yeah. yeah. >> Oh wow. The the old-timers were like >> Oh wow. The the old-timers were like >> Oh wow. The the old-timers were like this is going to like it's this is going to like it's this is going to like it's >> I remember when ReSharper came out. >> I remember when ReSharper came out. >> I remember when ReSharper came out. >> I I was this and then I I was the >> I I was this and then I I was the >> I I was this and then I I was the generation that was dissing people for generation that was dissing people for generation that was dissing people for using Stack Overflow because I'm like using Stack Overflow because I'm like using Stack Overflow because I'm like you don't need that and it's it's you don't need that and it's it's you don't need that and it's it's inaccurate and all that. So I was kind inaccurate and all that. So I was kind inaccurate and all that. So I was kind of already by you know I have a few of already by you know I have a few of already by you know I have a few years experience but this is you know years experience but this is you know years experience but this is you know like there's a few things like the like there's a few things like the like there's a few things like the industry in the industry like people industry in the industry like people industry in the industry like people surprisingly don't like change surprisingly don't like change surprisingly don't like change [laughter] even though the industry has [laughter] even though the industry has [laughter] even though the industry has been about change but after a few stable been about change but after a few stable been about change but after a few stable years people forget about it and they years people forget about it and they years people forget about it and they get good at it and they're very get good at it and they're very get good at it and they're very resistant to this and it's hard to get resistant to this and it's hard to get resistant to this and it's hard to get rid of if you've gone to a few cycles rid of if you've gone to a few cycles rid of if you've gone to a few cycles it's a bit easier. So you know anyone it's a bit easier. So you know anyone it's a bit easier. So you know anyone who's feeling bad about this change like who's feeling bad about this change like who's feeling bad about this change like don't worry it's going to happen in like don't worry it's going to happen in like don't worry it's going to happen in like 5 10 years again so might as well just 5 10 years again so might as well just 5 10 years again so might as well just get used to that. [laughter] get used to that. [laughter] get used to that. [laughter] >> Yeah. What does it say? The only thing >> Yeah. What does it say? The only thing >> Yeah. What does it say? The only thing that is constant is change. that is constant is change. that is constant is change. >> Yeah. But I do think a big thing that >> Yeah. But I do think a big thing that >> Yeah. But I do think a big thing that will change and I have seen this play will change and I have seen this play will change and I have seen this play out as well with the inflection points.

out as well with the inflection points. out as well with the inflection points. Your typical software engineer changes a Your typical software engineer changes a Your typical software engineer changes a lot. In the early 2000s when I entered lot. In the early 2000s when I entered lot. In the early 2000s when I entered the field, the top software engineer, the field, the top software engineer, the field, the top software engineer, the software developers were antisocial the software developers were antisocial the software developers were antisocial but brilliant. They were brilliant but brilliant. They were brilliant but brilliant. They were brilliant jerks. They were But they were jerks. They were But they were jerks. They were But they were highly respected at least in the highly respected at least in the highly respected at least in the companies that I worked at because they companies that I worked at because they companies that I worked at because they were the ones who could wrangle all this were the ones who could wrangle all this were the ones who could wrangle all this code and they they could they could fix code and they they could they could fix code and they they could they could fix the bugs and they would you know poured the bugs and they would you know poured the bugs and they would you know poured knowledge but they were highly paid knowledge but they were highly paid knowledge but they were highly paid highly respected as time progressed and highly respected as time progressed and highly respected as time progressed and you know we had Stack Overflow and it you know we had Stack Overflow and it you know we had Stack Overflow and it became a bit easier to to onboard. it became a bit easier to to onboard. it became a bit easier to to onboard. it became easier to figure out the maybe became easier to figure out the maybe became easier to figure out the maybe the code like I think those people still the code like I think those people still the code like I think those people still got valued but people who are a bit more got valued but people who are a bit more got valued but people who are a bit more social and collaborative start to become social and collaborative start to become social and collaborative start to become a little bit more valued now that we had a little bit more valued now that we had a little bit more valued now that we had the internet conferences online forums the internet conferences online forums the internet conferences online forums uh you know like including Stack uh you know like including Stack uh you know like including Stack Overflow the people who start to be Overflow the people who start to be Overflow the people who start to be valued by I think the top tech companies valued by I think the top tech companies valued by I think the top tech companies were both like really good software were both like really good software were both like really good software engineers but also uh kind of good at engineers but also uh kind of good at engineers but also uh kind of good at teamwork collaboration teamwork collaboration teamwork collaboration >> well it's humans in the loop we keep >> well it's humans in the loop we keep >> well it's humans in the loop we keep hearing this term humans in the loop hearing this term humans in the loop hearing this term humans in the loop like uh we never should have tolerated like uh we never should have tolerated like uh we never should have tolerated brilliant brilliant brilliant >> Y >> Y >> Y >> uh and for and fortunately many of the >> uh and for and fortunately many of the >> uh and for and fortunately many of the brilliant uh and we won't speak brilliant uh and we won't speak brilliant uh and we won't speak their names have have recognized that their names have have recognized that their names have have recognized that and in their older age become uh quite and in their older age become uh quite and in their older age become uh quite pleasant people that acknowledge that if pleasant people that acknowledge that if pleasant people that acknowledge that if you're not making software for people you're not making software for people you're not making software for people whether it be yourself or your family or whether it be yourself or your family or whether it be yourself or your family or your friends or to make someone's life your friends or to make someone's life your friends or to make someone's life better then what are you even what are better then what are you even what are better then what are you even what are you even doing? So you even doing? So you even doing? So >> yeah, but in some of the recent job >> yeah, but in some of the recent job >> yeah, but in some of the recent job adverts of like modern companies uh that

adverts of like modern companies uh that adverts of like modern companies uh that are doing a bunch of AI stuff, are doing a bunch of AI stuff, are doing a bunch of AI stuff, >> I no longer see technologies listed, but >> I no longer see technologies listed, but >> I no longer see technologies listed, but I do see for example empathy for I do see for example empathy for I do see for example empathy for customers. I see a lot more soft skills customers. I see a lot more soft skills customers. I see a lot more soft skills being listed. Like if you read just being listed. Like if you read just being listed. Like if you read just search for product engineer at any search for product engineer at any search for product engineer at any company that has raised funding a VC company that has raised funding a VC company that has raised funding a VC funded company that raised funding in funded company that raised funding in funded company that raised funding in the last like one or two years and it's the last like one or two years and it's the last like one or two years and it's it's almost like it's describing this it's almost like it's describing this it's almost like it's describing this really pleasant colleague and I've really pleasant colleague and I've really pleasant colleague and I've talked with some of these companies and talked with some of these companies and talked with some of these companies and how they hire and they reject a lot how they hire and they reject a lot how they hire and they reject a lot based on soft skills on on not being based on soft skills on on not being based on soft skills on on not being open enough and a lot of the because a open enough and a lot of the because a open enough and a lot of the because a lot of the work has become is becoming lot of the work has become is becoming lot of the work has become is becoming software engineers talk with customers software engineers talk with customers software engineers talk with customers they sit with meetings with them they they sit with meetings with them they they sit with meetings with them they ask like how are you using that like oh ask like how are you using that like oh ask like how are you using that like oh that's interesting can you tell me more that's interesting can you tell me more that's interesting can you tell me more And this is a brand new step uh a brand And this is a brand new step uh a brand And this is a brand new step uh a brand new persona that was not a developer new persona that was not a developer new persona that was not a developer like this used to be a project manager like this used to be a project manager like this used to be a project manager or product manager back in the day. So I or product manager back in the day. So I or product manager back in the day. So I think the profession is changing where think the profession is changing where think the profession is changing where where what is valued is is changing where what is valued is is changing where what is valued is is changing because again I I and I think it goes because again I I and I think it goes because again I I and I think it goes back to like back in the you know like back to like back in the you know like back to like back in the you know like 60s7s 80s there were so few people who 60s7s 80s there were so few people who 60s7s 80s there were so few people who could understand how to write that could understand how to write that could understand how to write that really really difficult assembly code really really difficult assembly code really really difficult assembly code and then of course see and and all those and then of course see and and all those and then of course see and and all those things and some the personalities were things and some the personalities were things and some the personalities were as they were I mean it it just happens as they were I mean it it just happens as they were I mean it it just happens but now there's so many more people but now there's so many more people but now there's so many more people everyone can write code with with with everyone can write code with with with everyone can write code with with with AI but now we need people who can still AI but now we need people who can still AI but now we need people who can still engineer who are empathetic and can do engineer who are empathetic and can do engineer who are empathetic and can do all these other things as well. So, it's all these other things as well. So, it's all these other things as well. So, it's it's interesting to see how the it's interesting to see how the it's interesting to see how the profession changes and I think it's profession changes and I think it's profession changes and I think it's really worth paying attention. Like if really worth paying attention. Like if really worth paying attention. Like if you're in this industry, pay attention you're in this industry, pay attention you're in this industry, pay attention to to what's happening and see if you're to to what's happening and see if you're to to what's happening and see if you're lacking some of those skills. Get those

lacking some of those skills. Get those lacking some of those skills. Get those get that experience. Like if you have a get that experience. Like if you have a get that experience. Like if you have a few years of experience, you're in the few years of experience, you're in the few years of experience, you're in the industry, congratulations. Like that's industry, congratulations. Like that's industry, congratulations. Like that's great cuz it's hard it's harder and great cuz it's hard it's harder and great cuz it's hard it's harder and harder to get into the industry. If harder to get into the industry. If harder to get into the industry. If you're not yet in the industry, know you're not yet in the industry, know you're not yet in the industry, know that these things will will also become that these things will will also become that these things will will also become valuable. That is a great place to end valuable. That is a great place to end valuable. That is a great place to end because it is a very pragmatic because it is a very pragmatic because it is a very pragmatic perspective and as you are the pragmatic perspective and as you are the pragmatic perspective and as you are the pragmatic engineer uh I appreciate you offering engineer uh I appreciate you offering engineer uh I appreciate you offering your perspective and spending so much your perspective and spending so much your perspective and spending so much time with me today. time with me today. time with me today. >> It was great Scott. Thanks very much. >> It was great Scott. Thanks very much. >> It was great Scott. Thanks very much. >> Thank you. You can check out more of Ger >> Thank you. You can check out more of Ger >> Thank you. You can check out more of Ger at pragmaticengineer.com. at pragmaticengineer.com. at pragmaticengineer.com. You can subscribe to the number one You can subscribe to the number one You can subscribe to the number one technology newsletter on Substack. This technology newsletter on Substack. This technology newsletter on Substack. This has been another episode of Hansel has been another episode of Hansel has been another episode of Hansel Minutes and we'll see you again next Minutes and we'll see you again next Minutes and we'll see you again next week. week. week. >> [music]