EPISODE 18 - Scott & Mark Learn To… Self-Promotion

Second thing, do you ever get stressed Second thing, do you ever get stressed out? Yeah, all the time. Okay. So, out? Yeah, all the time. Okay. So, out? Yeah, all the time. Okay. So, learning how to deal with stress. So, learning how to deal with stress. So, learning how to deal with stress. So, like I think I told you that I just did like I think I told you that I just did like I think I told you that I just did this TED talk uh in Portland and it this TED talk uh in Portland and it this TED talk uh in Portland and it almost killed me. Like it was just like almost killed me. Like it was just like almost killed me. Like it was just like everything all added up into just an everything all added up into just an everything all added up into just an unbelievable amount of stress I had not unbelievable amount of stress I had not unbelievable amount of stress I had not felt in a long time. Like low-key panic felt in a long time. Like low-key panic felt in a long time. Like low-key panic attack stress. attack stress. attack stress. So I think sometimes people perceive us So I think sometimes people perceive us So I think sometimes people perceive us as being um stress, not people who get as being um stress, not people who get as being um stress, not people who get who deal with stress. I mean, the thing who deal with stress. I mean, the thing who deal with stress. I mean, the thing that kills me is I'll give a level 400 that kills me is I'll give a level 400 that kills me is I'll give a level 400 talk and then I'll have people like, talk and then I'll have people like, talk and then I'll have people like, "This is way over my head, but it's "This is way over my head, but it's "This is way over my head, but it's awesome." And then there's one person awesome." And then there's one person awesome." And then there's one person like, "Boring, like too simple." Or it's like, "Boring, like too simple." Or it's like, "Boring, like too simple." Or it's a talk like I do this innovation talk a talk like I do this innovation talk a talk like I do this innovation talk every year and it's got I've got every year and it's got I've got every year and it's got I've got different content every time, but it's different content every time, but it's different content every time, but it's the innovation Azure innovation talk and the innovation Azure innovation talk and the innovation Azure innovation talk and then I get a comments of same as last then I get a comments of same as last then I get a comments of same as last time, tell us something new. Yeah, I was time, tell us something new. Yeah, I was time, tell us something new. Yeah, I was trying to explain that to LT. I was in a trying to explain that to LT. I was in a trying to explain that to LT. I was in a marketing LT meeting and they asked marketing LT meeting and they asked marketing LT meeting and they asked about that. They're like, "Didn't he do about that. They're like, "Didn't he do about that. They're like, "Didn't he do this last year?" I'm like, "It's a this last year?" I'm like, "It's a this last year?" I'm like, "It's a tradition. It's different every time.

tradition. It's different every time. tradition. It's different every time. It's innovations plural." Yeah. Yeah. I It's innovations plural." Yeah. Yeah. I It's innovations plural." Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Like, and the part that's I don't know. Like, and the part that's I don't know. Like, and the part that's I think is so funny is like, you know, the think is so funny is like, you know, the think is so funny is like, you know, the whole concept of those who can't teach. whole concept of those who can't teach. whole concept of those who can't teach. Yeah. So, like, what would I do if Yeah. So, like, what would I do if Yeah. So, like, what would I do if someone came to me as a mentor and said someone came to me as a mentor and said someone came to me as a mentor and said people were being haters online and I people were being haters online and I people were being haters online and I was sad? I'd be like, "Man, screw the was sad? I'd be like, "Man, screw the was sad? I'd be like, "Man, screw the haters." Like, you're doing great. Come haters." Like, you're doing great. Come haters." Like, you're doing great. Come on. You know, like so like I I'm giving on. You know, like so like I I'm giving on. You know, like so like I I'm giving the exact advice that I'm unable to the exact advice that I'm unable to the exact advice that I'm unable to take. Doctor, heal thyself. Yeah. take. Doctor, heal thyself. Yeah. take. Doctor, heal thyself. Yeah. Exactly. And it's just like, oh man, Exactly. And it's just like, oh man, Exactly. And it's just like, oh man, some random internet person with an egg some random internet person with an egg some random internet person with an egg for an avatar doesn't like me. You know for an avatar doesn't like me. You know for an avatar doesn't like me. You know what I mean? Yeah. I would tell what I mean? Yeah. I would tell what I mean? Yeah. I would tell everyone, forget I tell my kids, forget everyone, forget I tell my kids, forget everyone, forget I tell my kids, forget those people. But then I'm like 3 in the those people. But then I'm like 3 in the those people. But then I'm like 3 in the morning's bothering you. Yeah. Exactly. morning's bothering you. Yeah. Exactly. morning's bothering you. Yeah. Exactly. 3 in the morning, my eyes open up. I'm 3 in the morning, my eyes open up. I'm 3 in the morning, my eyes open up. I'm fast wide awake at night going, man. fast wide awake at night going, man. fast wide awake at night going, man. User 1265. He hates me. Yeah. User 1265. He hates me. Yeah. User 1265. He hates me. Yeah. [Music] [Music] [Music] I don't know, man. Like the I don't know, man. Like the I don't know, man. Like the self-promotion thing.

self-promotion thing. self-promotion thing. Do you Have you ever put on someone's Do you Have you ever put on someone's Do you Have you ever put on someone's connect like you should try to be more connect like you should try to be more connect like you should try to be more visible or I'd love to get invisibility? visible or I'd love to get invisibility? visible or I'd love to get invisibility? Like visibility isn't about Like visibility isn't about Like visibility isn't about self-promotion. It's about self-promotion. It's about self-promotion. It's about being proud of your work and letting being proud of your work and letting being proud of your work and letting someone be aware of your work. It's like someone be aware of your work. It's like someone be aware of your work. It's like it's not a I used to say it's not a flex it's not a I used to say it's not a flex it's not a I used to say it's not a flex if it's true. If you're out there if it's true. If you're out there if it's true. If you're out there flexing on on people and there's nothing flexing on on people and there's nothing flexing on on people and there's nothing to back it up, you didn't actually do to back it up, you didn't actually do to back it up, you didn't actually do anything, then that's a problem. That's anything, then that's a problem. That's anything, then that's a problem. That's just being braggadocious. But if you did just being braggadocious. But if you did just being braggadocious. But if you did something and no one knows about it, something and no one knows about it, something and no one knows about it, that's challenging. that's challenging. that's challenging. Hm. But like what about people who don't Hm. But like what about people who don't Hm. But like what about people who don't want to be visible or what does want to be visible or what does want to be visible or what does visibility even mean? You know, you want visibility even mean? You know, you want visibility even mean? You know, you want I always tell people also about diagonal I always tell people also about diagonal I always tell people also about diagonal visibility. Do we talk about diagonal visibility. Do we talk about diagonal visibility. Do we talk about diagonal visibility? I don't think so. It's like visibility? I don't think so. It's like visibility? I don't think so. It's like you can have your boss know about your you can have your boss know about your you can have your boss know about your thing, but then it's also helpful to thing, but then it's also helpful to thing, but then it's also helpful to um have people who are up and off to the um have people who are up and off to the um have people who are up and off to the side to know about whatever you're side to know about whatever you're side to know about whatever you're working on. So, are we just a bunch of working on. So, are we just a bunch of working on. So, are we just a bunch of self-promoters? self-promoters? self-promoters? And what does that even mean? What are And what does that even mean? What are And what does that even mean? What are we promoting? we promoting? we promoting? vibes. I don't know. But uh so let let's vibes. I don't know. But uh so let let's vibes. I don't know. But uh so let let's talk about how are we self-promoting talk about how are we self-promoting talk about how are we self-promoting this podcast. Would you consider this this podcast. Would you consider this this podcast. Would you consider this self-promoting? Like a talk at Build.

self-promoting? Like a talk at Build. self-promoting? Like a talk at Build. That's not self-promoting, is it? Well, That's not self-promoting, is it? Well, That's not self-promoting, is it? Well, if you put your name in it in the title, if you put your name in it in the title, if you put your name in it in the title, I guess. Well, when we put your name in I guess. Well, when we put your name in I guess. Well, when we put your name in a title, so I run I'm running with James a title, so I run I'm running with James a title, so I run I'm running with James Canard and a bunch of other great folks Canard and a bunch of other great folks Canard and a bunch of other great folks that build the build sessions and we'll that build the build sessions and we'll that build the build sessions and we'll put your name in it or Andrew put your name in it or Andrew put your name in it or Andrew Harlesber's name in it because people Harlesber's name in it because people Harlesber's name in it because people will come to the talk. Yeah. Right. And will come to the talk. Yeah. Right. And will come to the talk. Yeah. Right. And then and then you remember the joke I then and then you remember the joke I then and then you remember the joke I did last so we had a little fight at did last so we had a little fight at did last so we had a little fight at Build a couple of years ago where people Build a couple of years ago where people Build a couple of years ago where people were saying uh that people internally were saying uh that people internally were saying uh that people internally someone said well no one will come to a someone said well no one will come to a someone said well no one will come to a technical talk at Build. So then I made technical talk at Build. So then I made technical talk at Build. So then I made a talk called highly technical talk. a talk called highly technical talk. a talk called highly technical talk. Yeah. Uh to troll them and it became a Yeah. Uh to troll them and it became a Yeah. Uh to troll them and it became a pretty well thoughtout talk. Um and and pretty well thoughtout talk. Um and and pretty well thoughtout talk. Um and and we're going to do it again this year. we're going to do it again this year. we're going to do it again this year. Steven Toe. He's fantastic. So people Steven Toe. He's fantastic. So people Steven Toe. He's fantastic. So people like Steven Tob. And when we do a video like Steven Tob. And when we do a video like Steven Tob. And when we do a video of Stephen Tob people like oh man of Stephen Tob people like oh man of Stephen Tob people like oh man freaking Stephen Tobe I love that guy. freaking Stephen Tobe I love that guy. freaking Stephen Tobe I love that guy. So, I put his name in the title cuz So, I put his name in the title cuz So, I put his name in the title cuz people will go. Mhm. Is that people will go. Mhm. Is that people will go. Mhm. Is that self-promotion? Is that promoting self-promotion? Is that promoting self-promotion? Is that promoting Steven? I guess it's promoting Stephen. Steven? I guess it's promoting Stephen. Steven? I guess it's promoting Stephen. Well, he's not promoting it. Well, he Well, he's not promoting it. Well, he Well, he's not promoting it. Well, he doesn't know I put his name in the doesn't know I put his name in the doesn't know I put his name in the title. Yeah. So, that's not by title. Yeah. So, that's not by title. Yeah. So, that's not by definition is not self-promotion. Yeah. definition is not self-promotion. Yeah. definition is not self-promotion. Yeah. Yeah. But what do you think I get out of Yeah. But what do you think I get out of Yeah. But what do you think I get out of promoting myself? I don't have I'm not promoting myself? I don't have I'm not promoting myself? I don't have I'm not selling anything. Yeah. I don't know. I selling anything. Yeah. I don't know. I selling anything. Yeah. I don't know. I just think it's so interesting. But, um just think it's so interesting. But, um just think it's so interesting. But, um Yeah. So like Microsoft has a but the Yeah. So like Microsoft has a but the Yeah. So like Microsoft has a but the but going back to a a talket build even but going back to a a talket build even but going back to a a talket build even if it's got your name in the title isn't if it's got your name in the title isn't if it's got your name in the title isn't necessarily self-promotion if it's there necessarily self-promotion if it's there necessarily self-promotion if it's there for a legitimate reason. Well you're for a legitimate reason. Well you're for a legitimate reason. Well you're promoting something you're promoting a promoting something you're promoting a promoting something you're promoting a project you're working on or a thing project you're working on or a thing project you're working on or a thing that you actually in that case it's that you actually in that case it's that you actually in that case it's promoting content delivered by somebody promoting content delivered by somebody promoting content delivered by somebody that knows how to deliver content well that knows how to deliver content well that knows how to deliver content well that people like. Y um it's it you know

that people like. Y um it's it you know that people like. Y um it's it you know take somebody that's a poor speaker and take somebody that's a poor speaker and take somebody that's a poor speaker and it's got a reputation of not delivering it's got a reputation of not delivering it's got a reputation of not delivering interesting talks put their name in the interesting talks put their name in the interesting talks put their name in the title and that's going to actually have title and that's going to actually have title and that's going to actually have the opposite effect of because people the opposite effect of because people the opposite effect of because people will be like oh avoid that one. will be like oh avoid that one. will be like oh avoid that one. Yeah that's fair. That's fair. So Yeah that's fair. That's fair. So Yeah that's fair. That's fair. So you're promoting the dissemination of you're promoting the dissemination of you're promoting the dissemination of highquality content I guess. highquality content I guess. highquality content I guess. um when you put somebody that's a good um when you put somebody that's a good um when you put somebody that's a good speaker's name in the title. speaker's name in the title. speaker's name in the title. Now, so I wouldn't consider that Now, so I wouldn't consider that Now, so I wouldn't consider that self-promotion self-promotion self-promotion even if the person themselves is putting even if the person themselves is putting even if the person themselves is putting it in there because they've earned that. it in there because they've earned that. it in there because they've earned that. Let's use this example because I just Let's use this example because I just Let's use this example because I just realized one that would be both Bill realized one that would be both Bill realized one that would be both Bill Gates and Satia ran run ran the company Gates and Satia ran run ran the company Gates and Satia ran run ran the company and each when they started so at some and each when they started so at some and each when they started so at some point in the middle of their tenure had point in the middle of their tenure had point in the middle of their tenure had a book come out. So when hit refresh is a book come out. So when hit refresh is a book come out. So when hit refresh is that self-promotion? Yeah. Or is that that self-promotion? Yeah. Or is that that self-promotion? Yeah. Or is that also came out with one and so did Brad also came out with one and so did Brad also came out with one and so did Brad Smith. Yeah. And you've written a couple Smith. Yeah. And you've written a couple Smith. Yeah. And you've written a couple of books as well uh both technical and of books as well uh both technical and of books as well uh both technical and non-fiction. Be sure to check out Zero non-fiction. Be sure to check out Zero non-fiction. Be sure to check out Zero Day wherever you get your book. Actually Day wherever you get your book. Actually Day wherever you get your book. Actually there's a difference uh like hit refresh there's a difference uh like hit refresh there's a difference uh like hit refresh is Satcha's own view of how to run a is Satcha's own view of how to run a is Satcha's own view of how to run a company right the books that I've done company right the books that I've done company right the books that I've done haven't been you know so business haven't been you know so business haven't been you know so business guidance books yeah it's either guidance books yeah it's either guidance books yeah it's either technical or non or or fiction okay um

technical or non or or fiction okay um technical or non or or fiction okay um and that so the difference I think is and that so the difference I think is and that so the difference I think is that Satcha's book is connected with that Satcha's book is connected with that Satcha's book is connected with Microsoft in a deep way directly Microsoft in a deep way directly Microsoft in a deep way directly the um whereas my books either They're the um whereas my books either They're the um whereas my books either They're connected but it's product connection connected but it's product connection connected but it's product connection not my brand per connection or uh the not my brand per connection or uh the not my brand per connection or uh the fiction books which are not connected fiction books which are not connected fiction books which are not connected with Microsoft right um so I'm just with Microsoft right um so I'm just with Microsoft right um so I'm just trying to make a distinction here trying to make a distinction here trying to make a distinction here because you said oh you publish books because you said oh you publish books because you said oh you publish books too they're this is the reason I'm too they're this is the reason I'm too they're this is the reason I'm saying that is that when you do that you saying that is that when you do that you saying that is that when you do that you do it in your own time on your own do it in your own time on your own do it in your own time on your own computers at night on a different PC computers at night on a different PC computers at night on a different PC like it's because you know Microsoft like it's because you know Microsoft like it's because you know Microsoft owns the things you make on your machine owns the things you make on your machine owns the things you make on your machine so then when I do my side stuff and my so then when I do my side stuff and my so then when I do my side stuff and my blog I have other machines so you you blog I have other machines so you you blog I have other machines so you you blur these lines but we have this blur these lines but we have this blur these lines but we have this moonlighting process which is called moonlighting process which is called moonlighting process which is called moonlighting is working on a thing moonlighting is working on a thing moonlighting is working on a thing that's not your job on the side or at that's not your job on the side or at that's not your job on the side or at night um and that should be promoted and night um and that should be promoted and night um and that should be promoted and supported but the question is then like supported but the question is then like supported but the question is then like if you if one used Microsoft time to if you if one used Microsoft time to if you if one used Microsoft time to talk about one's book talk about one's book talk about one's book it gets blurry so someone might but they it gets blurry so someone might but they it gets blurry so someone might but they do but they do okay so then what do you do but they do okay so then what do you do but they do okay so then what do you do with that well actually going back to do with that well actually going back to do with that well actually going back to I think that Um I think that Um I think that Um I I think that it's challenging to call I I think that it's challenging to call I I think that it's challenging to call my the books that I've done my the books that I've done my the books that I've done self-promotion. I think if you take a self-promotion. I think if you take a self-promotion. I think if you take a look at Satcha's book, Hit Refresh, you look at Satcha's book, Hit Refresh, you look at Satcha's book, Hit Refresh, you could say it's self-promotion because could say it's self-promotion because could say it's self-promotion because it's promoting Satcha is promoting his it's promoting Satcha is promoting his it's promoting Satcha is promoting his way of managing thought leadership.

way of managing thought leadership. way of managing thought leadership. Yeah, thought leadership. So it is much Yeah, thought leadership. So it is much Yeah, thought leadership. So it is much more directly and same same with Kevin more directly and same same with Kevin more directly and same same with Kevin Scots about the future of AI Scots about the future of AI Scots about the future of AI or Peter Lee or etc. Like leaders with or Peter Lee or etc. Like leaders with or Peter Lee or etc. Like leaders with books. They're very it's very much like books. They're very it's very much like books. They're very it's very much like it's there. It's them. You're going to it's there. It's them. You're going to it's there. It's them. You're going to read. The new guy Mustafa has got TED read. The new guy Mustafa has got TED read. The new guy Mustafa has got TED talks. I think you're going you're going talks. I think you're going you're going talks. I think you're going you're going to read the book because of this is to read the book because of this is to read the book because of this is their vision. So, it's really about them their vision. So, it's really about them their vision. So, it's really about them um their opinion on things. So, I do um their opinion on things. So, I do um their opinion on things. So, I do think that you could say those are think that you could say those are think that you could say those are self-promotion much more directly than self-promotion much more directly than self-promotion much more directly than like the books I've done. Um but the like the books I've done. Um but the like the books I've done. Um but the question is is that you know what's question is is that you know what's question is is that you know what's wrong with that wrong with that wrong with that and why is it good? And I I think that and why is it good? And I I think that and why is it good? And I I think that from a Microsoft perspective, you want from a Microsoft perspective, you want from a Microsoft perspective, you want Microsoft to be seen as as a Microsoft to be seen as as a Microsoft to be seen as as a thoughtleading company. thoughtleading company. thoughtleading company. Um, and what is a company if not its Um, and what is a company if not its Um, and what is a company if not its leaders and employees leaders and employees leaders and employees that show thought leadership that show thought leadership that show thought leadership and actually having uh brands and actually having uh brands and actually having uh brands to present that thought leadership is a to present that thought leadership is a to present that thought leadership is a good way to rally and build momentum.

good way to rally and build momentum. good way to rally and build momentum. And actually this is you know your brand And actually this is you know your brand And actually this is you know your brand Scott Hansselman. You are the most Scott Hansselman. You are the most Scott Hansselman. You are the most well-known developer face at Microsoft well-known developer face at Microsoft well-known developer face at Microsoft maybe. But that implies that it was a maybe. But that implies that it was a maybe. But that implies that it was a plan or a strategy or there was a goal plan or a strategy or there was a goal plan or a strategy or there was a goal like sometimes things just happen. Yeah. like sometimes things just happen. Yeah. like sometimes things just happen. Yeah. But well it doesn't have to be But well it doesn't have to be But well it doesn't have to be necessarily goal but I I you know just necessarily goal but I I you know just necessarily goal but I I you know just going on to the why is my name in the going on to the why is my name in the going on to the why is my name in the title of my talks. It wasn't a plan for title of my talks. It wasn't a plan for title of my talks. It wasn't a plan for me to say oh I want my name in the title me to say oh I want my name in the title me to say oh I want my name in the title of my talks. No, it but it's it's after of my talks. No, it but it's it's after of my talks. No, it but it's it's after some time of reputation and yeah, you some time of reputation and yeah, you some time of reputation and yeah, you know the momentum that's built up around know the momentum that's built up around know the momentum that's built up around the talks that I give the talks that I give the talks that I give people said it'd be good to put Mark's people said it'd be good to put Mark's people said it'd be good to put Mark's name in the title of the talks. Yep. name in the title of the talks. Yep. name in the title of the talks. Yep. That's exactly what happened. I was That's exactly what happened. I was That's exactly what happened. I was there and put your name in some of the there and put your name in some of the there and put your name in some of the talks myself. So for you, you didn't talks myself. So for you, you didn't talks myself. So for you, you didn't necessarily start out by saying I want necessarily start out by saying I want necessarily start out by saying I want to be the face of development at to be the face of development at to be the face of development at Microsoft, but you kept you were just Microsoft, but you kept you were just Microsoft, but you kept you were just doing things that you thought were fun doing things that you thought were fun doing things that you thought were fun and promoting Microsoft products. And and promoting Microsoft products. And and promoting Microsoft products. And then it became, oh, Scott Hansselman is then it became, oh, Scott Hansselman is then it became, oh, Scott Hansselman is kind of the face of these things. And kind of the face of these things. And kind of the face of these things. And then other people in the machine and then other people in the machine and then other people in the machine and then you recognize that value and so you then you recognize that value and so you then you recognize that value and so you lean into it and and like I'm going to lean into it and and like I'm going to lean into it and and like I'm going to take Microsoft's products forwards by take Microsoft's products forwards by take Microsoft's products forwards by leveraging the brand that I've developed leveraging the brand that I've developed leveraging the brand that I've developed and reinforcing the brand that I've and reinforcing the brand that I've and reinforcing the brand that I've developed. And it's like a virtuous developed. And it's like a virtuous developed. And it's like a virtuous cycle. Yeah. I reinforce my brand that cycle. Yeah. I reinforce my brand that cycle. Yeah. I reinforce my brand that gives me more ability to promote gives me more ability to promote gives me more ability to promote Microsoft products and get reach and Microsoft products and get reach and Microsoft products and get reach and awareness. And if I do that well, that awareness. And if I do that well, that awareness. And if I do that well, that increases my brand value, which means

increases my brand value, which means increases my brand value, which means that the next time, you know, I'll reach that the next time, you know, I'll reach that the next time, you know, I'll reach more because this the word spreads even more because this the word spreads even more because this the word spreads even further. I think that that's how your further. I think that that's how your further. I think that that's how your brand promotion, your self-promotion brand promotion, your self-promotion brand promotion, your self-promotion connects with Microsoft. connects with Microsoft. connects with Microsoft. when you everything you're saying is when you everything you're saying is when you everything you're saying is correct and I agree but I do feel gross correct and I agree but I do feel gross correct and I agree but I do feel gross when people say personal brand and I when people say personal brand and I when people say personal brand and I have done talks explicitly rejecting the have done talks explicitly rejecting the have done talks explicitly rejecting the idea of a personal brand. I always talk idea of a personal brand. I always talk idea of a personal brand. I always talk about if you're following someone you about if you're following someone you about if you're following someone you you can't avoid it. You've got one, you can't avoid it. You've got one, you can't avoid it. You've got one, right? That's the thing. You can't you right? That's the thing. You can't you right? That's the thing. You can't you can't avoid it. But I've told people can't avoid it. But I've told people can't avoid it. But I've told people like just try to be yourself. Follow like just try to be yourself. Follow like just try to be yourself. Follow follow the whole person on social media. follow the whole person on social media. follow the whole person on social media. You know, both of you and I you we have You know, both of you and I you we have You know, both of you and I you we have our full selves on social media to the our full selves on social media to the our full selves on social media to the best of our abilities. um as a I'll say best of our abilities. um as a I'll say best of our abilities. um as a I'll say on that one I I'll say that I don't I on that one I I'll say that I don't I on that one I I'll say that I don't I think uh I don't I don't have much of my think uh I don't I don't have much of my think uh I don't I don't have much of my personal life in social media. Well that personal life in social media. Well that personal life in social media. Well that actually that's a good point. So like actually that's a good point. So like actually that's a good point. So like for example like people don't know my for example like people don't know my for example like people don't know my kids' names and they think that they are kids' names and they think that they are kids' names and they think that they are connected to my family but that's a connected to my family but that's a connected to my family but that's a parasocial relationship. I don't post parasocial relationship. I don't post parasocial relationship. I don't post pictures of my kids and stuff like that pictures of my kids and stuff like that pictures of my kids and stuff like that but there's a but there's a but there's a there's a this person seems accessible there's a this person seems accessible there's a this person seems accessible kind of thing and like you we put our kind of thing and like you we put our kind of thing and like you we put our politics and our opinions and our food politics and our opinions and our food politics and our opinions and our food Yeah. I'm carefully. But we're not just Yeah. I'm carefully. But we're not just Yeah. I'm carefully. But we're not just putting out like code. We're not just putting out like code. We're not just putting out like code. We're not just tech fire hoses.

tech fire hoses. tech fire hoses. Um, but when people say personal brand, Um, but when people say personal brand, Um, but when people say personal brand, like I don't know. I see people who are like I don't know. I see people who are like I don't know. I see people who are like full in on their personal brand and like full in on their personal brand and like full in on their personal brand and they're like across all platforms and they're like across all platforms and they're like across all platforms and it's almost like they have a whole it's almost like they have a whole it's almost like they have a whole social media team just to talk about how social media team just to talk about how social media team just to talk about how awesome they are. Well, I'm just kind of awesome they are. Well, I'm just kind of awesome they are. Well, I'm just kind of vibing it. So, it's funny when someone vibing it. So, it's funny when someone vibing it. So, it's funny when someone would have an opinion and say like, "Why would have an opinion and say like, "Why would have an opinion and say like, "Why does Microsoft allow folks to do this or does Microsoft allow folks to do this or does Microsoft allow folks to do this or do that?" Like, there's lots of room. do that?" Like, there's lots of room. do that?" Like, there's lots of room. There's more than enough room for There's more than enough room for There's more than enough room for everybody. I agree. But I think that everybody. I agree. But I think that everybody. I agree. But I think that there there's a distinction. Both both there there's a distinction. Both both there there's a distinction. Both both you and I have grown our brands you and I have grown our brands you and I have grown our brands organically. It's just been built on top organically. It's just been built on top organically. It's just been built on top of, you know, that like I said, you I of, you know, that like I said, you I of, you know, that like I said, you I give talks, people like the talks, more give talks, people like the talks, more give talks, people like the talks, more people come to the talks. When they see people come to the talks. When they see people come to the talks. When they see my name, they come to the talks with my name, they come to the talks with my name, they come to the talks with you. Hey, Scott Hanselman's doing a you. Hey, Scott Hanselman's doing a you. Hey, Scott Hanselman's doing a podcast. Scott Hansman's doing a talk. I podcast. Scott Hansman's doing a talk. I podcast. Scott Hansman's doing a talk. I want to go No, Rinovich, but he's here. want to go No, Rinovich, but he's here. want to go No, Rinovich, but he's here. So like a budget Walmart version of So like a budget Walmart version of So like a budget Walmart version of Rinovich isn't speaking at the same Rinovich isn't speaking at the same Rinovich isn't speaking at the same time. We all got to We'll go to the time. We all got to We'll go to the time. We all got to We'll go to the other guy. Yeah. other guy. Yeah. other guy. Yeah. Uh so it's organ. So you've built these Uh so it's organ. So you've built these Uh so it's organ. So you've built these have been built organically. I think have been built organically. I think have been built organically. I think that when somebody talks about brand that when somebody talks about brand that when somebody talks about brand self-promotion in a negative way. It is, self-promotion in a negative way. It is, self-promotion in a negative way. It is, hey, I'm just going to go out and you hey, I'm just going to go out and you hey, I'm just going to go out and you know publish articles about how awesome know publish articles about how awesome know publish articles about how awesome Scott is, you know. Um, I'm going to Scott is, you know. Um, I'm going to Scott is, you know. Um, I'm going to try to increase my brand value try to increase my brand value try to increase my brand value independent of Microsoft in this. Yes.

independent of Microsoft in this. Yes. independent of Microsoft in this. Yes. Because both of our or increase your Because both of our or increase your Because both of our or increase your thing on Microsoft's back. Yeah. Or M thing on Microsoft's back. Yeah. Or M thing on Microsoft's back. Yeah. Or M Yeah. Exactly. Right. Right. Right. Uh, Yeah. Exactly. Right. Right. Right. Uh, Yeah. Exactly. Right. Right. Right. Uh, so I think that that's a a key so I think that that's a a key so I think that that's a a key distinction. I just heard that the distinction. I just heard that the distinction. I just heard that the team's jam someone wants to talk to you. team's jam someone wants to talk to you. team's jam someone wants to talk to you. Yeah, they always want to talk to me. Yeah, they always want to talk to me. Yeah, they always want to talk to me. Oh. Oh. Oh. I guess I should put it on uh do not I guess I should put it on uh do not I guess I should put it on uh do not disturb. Yeah. Which is always hard to disturb. Yeah. Which is always hard to disturb. Yeah. Which is always hard to find. find. find. And then you never know. It might be And then you never know. It might be And then you never know. It might be stuck there for months and you be stuck stuck there for months and you be stuck stuck there for months and you be stuck in do not disturb focus mode for the in do not disturb focus mode for the in do not disturb focus mode for the rest of your life. Yeah. Or it'll rest of your life. Yeah. Or it'll rest of your life. Yeah. Or it'll randomly turn off in 5 minutes because randomly turn off in 5 minutes because randomly turn off in 5 minutes because it just feels you're suddenly available it just feels you're suddenly available it just feels you're suddenly available in green. Yeah. See, now I lost our train of thought. See, now I lost our train of thought. Yeah. I think promoting oneself. I just Yeah. I think promoting oneself. I just Yeah. I think promoting oneself. I just drank water and one of the other blind drank water and one of the other blind drank water and one of the other blind comments was Mark drinks a lot of water comments was Mark drinks a lot of water comments was Mark drinks a lot of water in meetings. I think that the comment in meetings. I think that the comment in meetings. I think that the comment that we should be talking about is Mark that we should be talking about is Mark that we should be talking about is Mark looks refreshed and well hydrated. Yeah, looks refreshed and well hydrated. Yeah, looks refreshed and well hydrated. Yeah, we should. Somebody should say that.

That's the opener right there. That's the opener right there. Scott on his third Diet Coke and it's Scott on his third Diet Coke and it's Scott on his third Diet Coke and it's only 9:30 and drinking water. No. Is only 9:30 and drinking water. No. Is only 9:30 and drinking water. No. Is that really? This is Diet Coke, but it's that really? This is Diet Coke, but it's that really? This is Diet Coke, but it's not my third. not my third. not my third. I got a Soda Stream, so I can Yeah. See, I got a Soda Stream, so I can Yeah. See, I got a Soda Stream, so I can Yeah. See, what you do is you get the McDonald's what you do is you get the McDonald's what you do is you get the McDonald's thing and then you just fill it with thing and then you just fill it with thing and then you just fill it with Soda Stream and it feels fancy. All Soda Stream and it feels fancy. All Soda Stream and it feels fancy. All right. So, on self-promotion, I got a right. So, on self-promotion, I got a right. So, on self-promotion, I got a question for you on because you just question for you on because you just question for you on because you just talked about your TEDex talk. Oh, yeah. talked about your TEDex talk. Oh, yeah. talked about your TEDex talk. Oh, yeah. I did. You didn't talk You didn't I did. You didn't talk You didn't I did. You didn't talk You didn't mention Microsoft anywhere in that talk. mention Microsoft anywhere in that talk. mention Microsoft anywhere in that talk. I mentioned Microsoft once because I was I mentioned Microsoft once because I was I mentioned Microsoft once because I was told to explain my job, but I was not told to explain my job, but I was not told to explain my job, but I was not there as a Microsoft person. It was there as a Microsoft person. It was there as a Microsoft person. It was done. Yeah. Was that self-promotion or done. Yeah. Was that self-promotion or done. Yeah. Was that self-promotion or is that related to so actually so is that related to so actually so is that related to so actually so self-promotion versus Microsoft self-promotion versus Microsoft self-promotion versus Microsoft promotion promotion promotion because I think that your normal stuff because I think that your normal stuff because I think that your normal stuff that you do at build and everything else that you do at build and everything else that you do at build and everything else and your podcasts are Microsoft and your podcasts are Microsoft and your podcasts are Microsoft promotion. Well, no. So my podcast I had promotion. Well, no. So my podcast I had promotion. Well, no. So my podcast I had my 20 years podcast and blog existed 23 my 20 years podcast and blog existed 23 my 20 years podcast and blog existed 23 years ago long before Microsoft. Podcast years ago long before Microsoft. Podcast years ago long before Microsoft. Podcast was big. PPD told me that. probably was big. PPD told me that. probably was big. PPD told me that. probably hallucinated that. Uh, but yeah, the pod hallucinated that. Uh, but yeah, the pod hallucinated that. Uh, but yeah, the pod the pl the podcast and the blog like the pl the podcast and the blog like the pl the podcast and the blog like Hansel Minutes and the blog have been Hansel Minutes and the blog have been Hansel Minutes and the blog have been around since 2000. Um, and I've not been around since 2000. Um, and I've not been around since 2000. Um, and I've not been here that long and it'll be around here that long and it'll be around here that long and it'll be around after. Uh, I do them on my spare time.

after. Uh, I do them on my spare time. after. Uh, I do them on my spare time. It's my own thing. It's not selfot. It's my own thing. It's not selfot. It's my own thing. It's not selfot. Those are self-promotion. Purely Those are self-promotion. Purely Those are self-promotion. Purely self-promotion. self-promotion. self-promotion. I mean, I guess I'm not The intent is I mean, I guess I'm not The intent is I mean, I guess I'm not The intent is not I guess what I'm saying implies the not I guess what I'm saying implies the not I guess what I'm saying implies the intent to go. just yeah intent intent is intent to go. just yeah intent intent is intent to go. just yeah intent intent is just to promote your brand versus you're just to promote your brand versus you're just to promote your brand versus you're having you're delivering you're having having you're delivering you're having having you're delivering you're having fun delivering well I'm just fun delivering well I'm just fun delivering well I'm just enthusiastic about tech you know that enthusiastic about tech you know that enthusiastic about tech you know that like I'm pro I'm like hey have you heard like I'm pro I'm like hey have you heard like I'm pro I'm like hey have you heard the news it's cool this is fun so it's the news it's cool this is fun so it's the news it's cool this is fun so it's just a mouth the promotion is a side just a mouth the promotion is a side just a mouth the promotion is a side effect I think maybe that's it promotion effect I think maybe that's it promotion effect I think maybe that's it promotion is a side effect of what you're doing is a side effect of what you're doing is a side effect of what you're doing versus the goal yeah so to the tent talk versus the goal yeah so to the tent talk versus the goal yeah so to the tent talk and I like the way this is like the and I like the way this is like the and I like the way this is like the first episode you've ever asked me a first episode you've ever asked me a first episode you've ever asked me a question about myself. I knew you I was question about myself. I knew you I was question about myself. I knew you I was like, I'm going to ask Scott a question. like, I'm going to ask Scott a question. like, I'm going to ask Scott a question. Yeah, this is great. I like it. Let's Yeah, this is great. I like it. Let's Yeah, this is great. I like it. Let's make it about me cuz this is all about make it about me cuz this is all about make it about me cuz this is all about self-promotion, right? Um uh I I had self-promotion, right? Um uh I I had self-promotion, right? Um uh I I had said no thank you a couple of times to said no thank you a couple of times to said no thank you a couple of times to the TED thing because it it's like do we the TED thing because it it's like do we the TED thing because it it's like do we need another random guy doing a TED need another random guy doing a TED need another random guy doing a TED talk, you know what I mean? Like I felt talk, you know what I mean? Like I felt talk, you know what I mean? Like I felt like for years I was like I don't want like for years I was like I don't want like for years I was like I don't want to do that. That feels gross. But the to do that. That feels gross. But the to do that. That feels gross. But the whole point about TED is idea is worth whole point about TED is idea is worth whole point about TED is idea is worth spreading. So the idea is not about you, spreading. So the idea is not about you, spreading. So the idea is not about you, it's about your idea. So, you have to it's about your idea. So, you have to it's about your idea. So, you have to have an idea. And I I took me four years have an idea. And I I took me four years have an idea. And I I took me four years to figure out if I had an idea that I to figure out if I had an idea that I to figure out if I had an idea that I was willing to talk about. And no, it was willing to talk about. And no, it was willing to talk about. And no, it was not about me. I cuz the other thing was not about me. I cuz the other thing was not about me. I cuz the other thing that's funny is that people are selling that's funny is that people are selling that's funny is that people are selling books. I felt like I don't have a I books. I felt like I don't have a I books. I felt like I don't have a I didn't have a thing at the end of the didn't have a thing at the end of the didn't have a thing at the end of the talk. Yeah. I have to I've got to ask talk. Yeah. I have to I've got to ask talk. Yeah. I have to I've got to ask this at the end because I don't this at the end because I don't this at the end because I don't remember. I watched your talk, but I remember. I watched your talk, but I remember. I watched your talk, but I don't remember at the end. Did if you

don't remember at the end. Did if you don't remember at the end. Did if you said, "Thanks for coming to my TED said, "Thanks for coming to my TED said, "Thanks for coming to my TED talk." No. No, I didn't. I did say that. talk." No. No, I didn't. I did say that. talk." No. No, I didn't. I did say that. you. you. you. I was told not to by the speaker coach, I was told not to by the speaker coach, I was told not to by the speaker coach, but I did get to say that later at but I did get to say that later at but I did get to say that later at Chipotle. I went to uh I went to Chipotle. I went to uh I went to Chipotle. I went to uh I went to Chipotle and I saw a lady in line and Chipotle and I saw a lady in line and Chipotle and I saw a lady in line and she's like, "Hey, good talk." And I she's like, "Hey, good talk." And I she's like, "Hey, good talk." And I said, "Thank you for coming to my TED said, "Thank you for coming to my TED said, "Thank you for coming to my TED talk." So, that was kind of cool. Yeah. talk." So, that was kind of cool. Yeah. talk." So, that was kind of cool. Yeah. See, now you can say that in a way that See, now you can say that in a way that See, now you can say that in a way that means something different than everybody means something different than everybody means something different than everybody else. Yeah. Yeah. But it was just it was else. Yeah. Yeah. But it was just it was else. Yeah. Yeah. But it was just it was it was a I wanted you do a talk or you it was a I wanted you do a talk or you it was a I wanted you do a talk or you do a blog or you write a book. This is do a blog or you write a book. This is do a blog or you write a book. This is my opinion and and we this is out to my opinion and and we this is out to my opinion and and we this is out to like the people who are who have like the people who are who have like the people who are who have opinions about the blind whether the opinions about the blind whether the opinions about the blind whether the person on blind that doesn't like this person on blind that doesn't like this person on blind that doesn't like this podcast or like when you make something podcast or like when you make something podcast or like when you make something create something I feel like it's stuck create something I feel like it's stuck create something I feel like it's stuck inside you and you need to get it out inside you and you need to get it out inside you and you need to get it out like you wrote fiction cough you just like you wrote fiction cough you just like you wrote fiction cough you just created that cough like I needed to get created that cough like I needed to get created that cough like I needed to get that cough out of me um you wrote like that cough out of me um you wrote like that cough out of me um you wrote like zero day and it was in you and probably zero day and it was in you and probably zero day and it was in you and probably it was like ruminating for a while And it was like ruminating for a while And it was like ruminating for a while And you were just like, I've got this thing you were just like, I've got this thing you were just like, I've got this thing in me. I need to get it out. And then in me. I need to get it out. And then in me. I need to get it out. And then you did it. You got it out. Like, I have you did it. You got it out. Like, I have you did it. You got it out. Like, I have an idea, a tech, you know, I want to an idea, a tech, you know, I want to an idea, a tech, you know, I want to write this app or series of apps. I need write this app or series of apps. I need write this app or series of apps. I need to get it out of my body. And when this to get it out of my body. And when this to get it out of my body. And when this TED talk finally coalesed, TED talk finally coalesed, TED talk finally coalesed, it was just this this chunk of it was just this this chunk of it was just this this chunk of something. It's just like I need to something. It's just like I need to something. It's just like I need to produce this. So the blog, the podcast, produce this. So the blog, the podcast, produce this. So the blog, the podcast, it's like, ah, this I need to do a thing it's like, ah, this I need to do a thing it's like, ah, this I need to do a thing about that. You know, all the talks I'm about that. You know, all the talks I'm about that. You know, all the talks I'm doing at Build are because I'm excited doing at Build are because I'm excited doing at Build are because I'm excited about that thing, not because someone about that thing, not because someone about that thing, not because someone said, "Hey, Mark, we're gonna need you

said, "Hey, Mark, we're gonna need you said, "Hey, Mark, we're gonna need you to go talk about Azure Fufu. It's a new to go talk about Azure Fufu. It's a new to go talk about Azure Fufu. It's a new thing we're doing." So, by the way, I I thing we're doing." So, by the way, I I thing we're doing." So, by the way, I I don't I dislike having content given to don't I dislike having content given to don't I dislike having content given to me. Yeah, exactly. No one would ever me. Yeah, exactly. No one would ever me. Yeah, exactly. No one would ever like go take this thing you don't like go take this thing you don't like go take this thing you don't believe in and go talk about it or just believe in and go talk about it or just believe in and go talk about it or just give, you know, go talk about X. Yeah, give, you know, go talk about X. Yeah, give, you know, go talk about X. Yeah, Scott, go talk about Azure Arc. Here's Scott, go talk about Azure Arc. Here's Scott, go talk about Azure Arc. Here's the slide deck. Which is cool, but no. the slide deck. Which is cool, but no. the slide deck. Which is cool, but no. If I'm not geeked about it, I'm not If I'm not geeked about it, I'm not If I'm not geeked about it, I'm not going to talk about it. Yeah. But that's going to talk about it. Yeah. But that's going to talk about it. Yeah. But that's a that's a privilege that you get by by a that's a privilege that you get by by a that's a privilege that you get by by building up a group of people. But yeah, building up a group of people. But yeah, building up a group of people. But yeah, I I'm just jazzed about stuff. I don't I I'm just jazzed about stuff. I don't I I'm just jazzed about stuff. I don't understand why it's self-promotion if understand why it's self-promotion if understand why it's self-promotion if you're promoting your idea. Like on my you're promoting your idea. Like on my you're promoting your idea. Like on my podcast, my face doesn't even appear in podcast, my face doesn't even appear in podcast, my face doesn't even appear in my podcast on purpose. That was my podcast on purpose. That was my podcast on purpose. That was intentional. intentional. intentional. Again, I think I think it's promotion as Again, I think I think it's promotion as Again, I think I think it's promotion as a side effect versus promotion. I think a side effect versus promotion. I think a side effect versus promotion. I think the end goal, which could then be the end goal, which could then be the end goal, which could then be perceived as self-promotion. I feel like perceived as self-promotion. I feel like perceived as self-promotion. I feel like if I had like thought leader or like you if I had like thought leader or like you if I had like thought leader or like you know AI whatever whatever in my freaking know AI whatever whatever in my freaking know AI whatever whatever in my freaking LinkedIn bio you know like you have like LinkedIn bio you know like you have like LinkedIn bio you know like you have like worldbuilder you know what I mean like I worldbuilder you know what I mean like I worldbuilder you know what I mean like I don't understand why someone would be a don't understand why someone would be a don't understand why someone would be a hater on on us when like other people hater on on us when like other people hater on on us when like other people have like literally worldbuilder thought have like literally worldbuilder thought have like literally worldbuilder thought leader AI expert in their in their I was leader AI expert in their in their I was leader AI expert in their in their I was actually going to add that to mine actually going to add that to mine actually going to add that to mine should world builder yeah and AI thought should world builder yeah and AI thought should world builder yeah and AI thought leader and AI thought leader yeah did leader and AI thought leader yeah did leader and AI thought leader yeah did you generate that with chat GBT yeah you generate that with chat GBT yeah you generate that with chat GBT yeah it's written a whole nice bio for me.

See, you watched the talk. It was pretty See, you watched the talk. It was pretty good. I thought it was okay. I thought good. I thought it was okay. I thought good. I thought it was okay. I thought it was good. Yeah. Good personal it was good. Yeah. Good personal it was good. Yeah. Good personal stories, which is a you know, actually a stories, which is a you know, actually a stories, which is a you know, actually a good talk is storytelling, right? Is good talk is storytelling, right? Is good talk is storytelling, right? Is Yeah, I think so. I think it it was fun. Yeah, I think so. I think it it was fun. Yeah, I think so. I think it it was fun. It was hard though, man. Almost It was hard though, man. Almost It was hard though, man. Almost destroyed me. That and when I talk about destroyed me. That and when I talk about destroyed me. That and when I talk about things getting stuck in you, like it was things getting stuck in you, like it was things getting stuck in you, like it was taking up 20% of my brain power. It was taking up 20% of my brain power. It was taking up 20% of my brain power. It was like a system process and task manager. like a system process and task manager. like a system process and task manager. I didn't know what was going on or why I I didn't know what was going on or why I I didn't know what was going on or why I couldn't function until I released it. couldn't function until I released it. couldn't function until I released it. That was very challenging um for a long That was very challenging um for a long That was very challenging um for a long stressful. stressful. stressful. Let's do Let's do an episode on stress. Let's do Let's do an episode on stress. Let's do Let's do an episode on stress. We should do an episode on stress. We We should do an episode on stress. We We should do an episode on stress. We should do that. Well, this is a good should do that. Well, this is a good should do that. Well, this is a good episode to understand. But how would we episode to understand. But how would we episode to understand. But how would we encourage people regardless of whether encourage people regardless of whether encourage people regardless of whether or not someone thinks they're or not someone thinks they're or not someone thinks they're self-promoting to be more visible? I self-promoting to be more visible? I self-promoting to be more visible? I don't think being visibility is being don't think being visibility is being don't think being visibility is being visible is bad. I think that people your visible is bad. I think that people your visible is bad. I think that people your boss should know what you're doing. I boss should know what you're doing. I boss should know what you're doing. I think sharing information that's other think sharing information that's other think sharing information that's other people will find useful generously. people will find useful generously. people will find useful generously. That's what it is. Right. Exactly. That's what it is. Right. Exactly. That's what it is. Right. Exactly. Without a hook or a uh string attached Without a hook or a uh string attached Without a hook or a uh string attached is is valuable.

is is valuable. is is valuable. Yeah. I think it's okay to be to it is Yeah. I think it's okay to be to it is Yeah. I think it's okay to be to it is okay to want to be visible if it feeds okay to want to be visible if it feeds okay to want to be visible if it feeds your spirit, but it's also okay to not your spirit, but it's also okay to not your spirit, but it's also okay to not want to be visible and just do good want to be visible and just do good want to be visible and just do good work. Mhm. But it's also okay to have work. Mhm. But it's also okay to have work. Mhm. But it's also okay to have visibility simply happen as a side visibility simply happen as a side visibility simply happen as a side effect to your point of of being excited effect to your point of of being excited effect to your point of of being excited and doing good work. You know, was was and doing good work. You know, was was and doing good work. You know, was was Mr. Rogers or Ted Lasso uh a uh a Mr. Rogers or Ted Lasso uh a uh a Mr. Rogers or Ted Lasso uh a uh a self-promoter? No. But they were self-promoter? No. But they were self-promoter? No. But they were promoting an idea. And if you believe in promoting an idea. And if you believe in promoting an idea. And if you believe in your idea or ideas, then I think uh some your idea or ideas, then I think uh some your idea or ideas, then I think uh some amount of visibility is going to going amount of visibility is going to going amount of visibility is going to going to happen on its own. As far as to happen on its own. As far as to happen on its own. As far as Microsoft, by the way, by like you just Microsoft, by the way, by like you just Microsoft, by the way, by like you just had one fictional example and one real had one fictional example and one real had one fictional example and one real example and then Mr. Rogers example is example and then Mr. Rogers example is example and then Mr. Rogers example is interesting. Do people don't view him as interesting. Do people don't view him as interesting. Do people don't view him as a self-promoter, but his name was in the a self-promoter, but his name was in the a self-promoter, but his name was in the title of his show. You're right. Much like this show. Yeah. You're right. Much like this show. Yeah. [Music] [Music] [Music] Think about that. See, think about that. It's deep. No, that's think about that. It's deep. No, that's good. There's your ending right there.

good. There's your ending right there. good. There's your ending right there. Think about that. Think about that. Think about that. Yes, Bruce in the chat. genuine Yes, Bruce in the chat. genuine Yes, Bruce in the chat. genuine authenticity and being passionate about authenticity and being passionate about authenticity and being passionate about something. Yeah. Versus a plastic meta something. Yeah. Versus a plastic meta something. Yeah. Versus a plastic meta version of a person by self-promoters. version of a person by self-promoters. version of a person by self-promoters. True. Nailed it. True. Nailed it. True. Nailed it. Very well said, producer Bruce.